**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Wed Jun 20 02:59:58 2007
Jun 20 03:02:16 <CIA-24> openmoko: 03mickey * r2305 10/trunk/oe/packages/python/ (5 files in 2 dirs): oe: add python-pygtk2, 2.6.3, for usage with gtk+ 2.6.x
Jun 20 03:54:02 <CIA-24> openmoko: 03mickey * r2306 10/trunk/oe/packages/ (10 files in 10 dirs): mark as sync'ed w/ org.openembedded.dev
Jun 20 04:17:47 <aloril> that double battery idea is much better to implement in software ( http://crave.cnet.co.uk/mobiles/0,39029453,49291004-5,00.htm )
Jun 20 04:18:48 <aloril> basically at certain level (configurable) you make it warn before user starts music player, takes images, browses web, etc.. battery draining stuff
Jun 20 04:18:59 <aloril> (to save power for calls)
Jun 20 04:24:50 <aloril> dual screen idea is interesting though, small b&w stripe could display various status information and be quite readable in sunlight (or alternatively something like OLPC uses)
Jun 20 05:40:58 <jouston> LaF0rge: Hello
Jun 20 06:13:53 <wehttamb_> counter
Jun 20 06:13:54 <aloril> http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter 70% for P1: a week, 2 days 02:53:01 (9.120±9.1 days) (1524;234)
Jun 20 07:03:33 <schurig> aloril: nice reading about the DUB :-)
Jun 20 07:04:23 <schurig> aloril: an OLPC-like screen would be nice, too. It's almost-B&W in bright sun, but readable. And color inside. And it doesn't use too much power.
Jun 20 07:04:24 * aloril personally prefers that screen covers hole face, not half screen, half phone buttons
Jun 20 07:05:13 <aloril> between these 2 would be thumb keyboard, but .. I believe its possible to have fast touch screen input (and there is always bluetooth keyboard option)
Jun 20 07:15:02 <tr1> moin
Jun 20 07:23:32 * aloril remembers distortion field being strong when iPhone was announced
Jun 20 07:24:04 <aloril> was even affected by it for some minutes, then saw specs and that they were not that special (especially screen less resolution)
Jun 20 07:24:53 <aloril> next I noticed "patented" stuff and thought, "oh no, they have patented all kinds of nifty inventions we were going to do (and already had talked about)"
Jun 20 07:25:33 <aloril> final bubble bursting was of course "no 3rd party apps" -> not interested at all now
Jun 20 07:26:43 <Tronic> But hey, you can develop with JavaScript!
Jun 20 07:27:22 <Tronic> I wonder how Apple manages to do that.
Jun 20 07:27:53 <Tronic> They omit features that everybody else has and then market that as a new feature.
Jun 20 07:29:28 <CM> Tronic: I thought omitting features was Apples trademark ;)
Jun 20 07:29:39 <CM> "We know better what you want than you do yourself" 
Jun 20 07:30:37 <aloril> zaurus was mentioned yesterday, but is that really phone? (I guess with suitable sleeve?)
Jun 20 07:35:01 <aloril> so I guess its fair to say that Neo1973 is first phone with firmware where its easy to add capability to compile programs for phone in phone itself
Jun 20 07:35:22 <aloril> (and it might very well include python, so you can script in inside even in default firmware)
Jun 20 07:36:30 <aloril> number_of_users(something being factory installed) > number_of_users(user install new different unsupported firmware) (example of later is HTC devices)
Jun 20 07:37:31 <TRIsoft> morning
Jun 20 07:38:41 <aloril> another first I think is that you can ssh into Neo1973 in default image
Jun 20 07:38:57 <aloril> or can you ssh into greenphone?
Jun 20 07:41:07 <ljp> greenphone has ssh and telnet
Jun 20 07:42:00 <ynezz> counter
Jun 20 07:42:00 <aloril> http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter 70% for P1: a week, 2 days 02:08:58 (9.090±9.1 days) (1525;234)
Jun 20 07:42:10 <Mandarino> hello
Jun 20 07:42:12 <Mandarino> counter
Jun 20 07:42:13 <aloril> http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter 70% for P1: a week, 2 days 02:08:51 (9.089±9.1 days) (1526;234)
Jun 20 07:42:31 <Mandarino> somebody alive?
Jun 20 07:42:49 <aloril> an the other hand, greenphone is not really consumer phone, its development platform
Jun 20 07:43:11 <aloril> hmm.. I guess you could install gcc too into greenphone too?
Jun 20 07:43:30 <ljp> if you are insane
Jun 20 07:43:30 <aloril> ljp: it has sshd too and not only ssh?
Jun 20 07:43:42 <ljp> sshd, rather
Jun 20 07:43:52 <ljp> scp
Jun 20 07:44:22 <Mandarino> How can I contacto to Sean :?
Jun 20 07:44:37 * aloril intents to install gcc into Neo1973, it has plenty of power for that (except for big programs, but those I can always compile on desktop computer and transmit binary back)
Jun 20 07:45:00 <ljp> memory is the real issue with gcc
Jun 20 07:45:17 <aloril> ljp: 128MB should be enough for a lot of stuff
Jun 20 07:45:53 <Hopscotch> good morning
Jun 20 07:46:03 * amarsh04 remembers compiling gcc 3.4 using gcc 3.3 on a Sparcstation 10 (2*50Mhz CPUs, 224 Meg RAM) and having to add lots of extra swap space
Jun 20 07:46:42 <amarsh04> at least I didn't have to compile Firefox and Openoffice.org (-:
Jun 20 07:48:16 <aloril> yeah, gcc, firefox, oo, kernel, etc.. compilations are better to do on desktop and just transmit results
Jun 20 07:54:04 <CIA-24> openmoko: 03mickey * r2307 10/trunk/oe/packages/flite/ (8 files in 2 dirs): oe: add flite speech synthesizer
Jun 20 07:55:05 * aloril was thinking more like this: "I have this new cellular automaton idea and I want to test it now"
Jun 20 07:55:41 <aloril> then gcc would be handy, though transmitting source and binary over GPRS should take more than few seconds either for that
Jun 20 07:56:07 <aloril> but compiling locally should take long either and I don't think you want to run it remotely and transmit screens ;-)
Jun 20 07:58:34 <ynezz> i wonder how long the battery will last...
Jun 20 08:25:20 <schurig> ljp: sshd?  Or dropbear? :-)
Jun 20 08:26:12 <schurig> aloril: use rapid-prototyping languages to test ideas, e.g. python or boo
Jun 20 08:26:52 <schurig> aloril: and compiling locally create lot's of CPU un-idle-ness, which drains your battery
Jun 20 08:26:58 <aloril> schurig: sometimes those are just too slow, C is 100-1000x faster for some stuff
Jun 20 08:27:22 <aloril> schurig: compiling is minor compared to runtime ;-)
Jun 20 08:28:35 <schurig> aloril: hehe, maybe. Create gcc with OE, put it into the QEmu and observe how fast/slow it is
Jun 20 08:29:09 <schurig> aloril: at home I still have an ancient PC, AMD 1 GHz. QEMU is so slow there emulating the Neo that it makes no fun at all
Jun 20 08:29:14 * aloril has used gcc on slower machines than Neo1973 is ;-)
Jun 20 08:29:36 <aloril> with 1/10 memory too ;-)
Jun 20 08:29:42 <schurig> aloril: I think so. GCC development started when even some Workstations where slower :-)
Jun 20 08:29:51 <schurig> aloril: GCC 1.x :-)
Jun 20 08:30:32 <schurig> aloril: anyway, from the QEMU image I saw that neo doesn't right now try to save boot time
Jun 20 08:30:55 <aloril> hmm.. yeah 2.X something probably at the time
Jun 20 08:33:19 * aloril thinks gcc should be able to compile simple programs in few seconds on Neo1973 without problems
Jun 20 08:34:37 <baird> I have gcc-2.7.2.2 compiling kernels on an old 386 laptop w/ only 2MB of RAM...
Jun 20 08:35:13 <baird> "Just stay away from C++" :)
Jun 20 08:45:21 <[psy]> lol baird 
Jun 20 08:45:35 <[psy]> you manage to get a full kernel compile?
Jun 20 08:50:21 <baird> Yup-- although for a custom 2.0.39 kernel, and it took about 7 times longer than normal (~14 hours) because of swapping. "But Linux didn't crash."
Jun 20 08:53:30 <baird> The 386 laptop was an old Compaq that I was using for 'my Linux fix' when I was marooned in the Australian Outback for a month with my then-girlfriend's parents.. -_- .. Emacs18, Gcc-2.7.2.2, and I was writing and compiling code. :)
Jun 20 09:00:06 <schurig> baird: recently I started to use gcc-4.2 with Qt 4.x and precompiler headers. It was almost as fast as gcc. WOOOT! :-)
Jun 20 09:21:52 <buz> schurig: that's because gcc got a lot slower over time ;)
Jun 20 10:12:55 <aloril> (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Buying_Interest_List]]
Jun 20 10:21:34 <nox-Hand> counter
Jun 20 10:21:34 <aloril> http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter 70% for P1: a week, 2 days 00:49:11 (9.034±9.0 days) (1527;234)
Jun 20 10:24:39 <Kero> where did that extra week (in the counter) come from...
Jun 20 10:25:17 <Agui> The Gta01b v4  powered off several seconds later automaticly if I do input anything, can somebody tell me  how to disable it? It' s a trouble  when i transfer file to u-boot
Jun 20 10:34:06 <aloril> can you see what kind of amperage you get from USB inside Neo1973?
Jun 20 10:34:37 <aloril> if yes, then could use Neo1973 to measure actual AA battery capacity by seeing when amperage drops
Jun 20 10:34:51 <aloril> (using something like http://www.ladyada.net/make/mintyboost/ )
Jun 20 10:35:30 <buz> Kero: the usual increment ;)
Jun 20 10:36:32 <aloril> Kero: see page, I just combined 2 counters (probability for short term counter was too low)
Jun 20 10:36:33 <SpeedEvil> The USB supplies no power.
Jun 20 10:36:41 <SpeedEvil> What do you mean aloril?
Jun 20 10:37:11 <aloril> SpeedEvil: charge Neo1973 from external source, notice when external source can't anymore supply much amperage
Jun 20 10:37:41 <SpeedEvil> Umm - You can't really do that meaningfully.
Jun 20 10:37:52 <SpeedEvil> The input voltage is supposed to be a regulated 5V
Jun 20 10:38:00 <SpeedEvil> So it either charges or not
Jun 20 10:38:36 <aloril> yes, but amperage can be 100mAh or 500mAh: so what happens when battery runs low?
Jun 20 10:38:59 <SpeedEvil> Why would you want to?
Jun 20 10:39:14 <SpeedEvil> Measure the capacity that is.
Jun 20 10:40:16 <SpeedEvil> Also - as far as I'm aware, there is no way to measure the input current on the USB
Jun 20 10:40:21 <SpeedEvil> You'd have to guess.
Jun 20 10:41:20 <aloril> OK, so what happens if you try to draw 500mAh and it won't supply it (battery low for example)?
Jun 20 10:41:44 <SpeedEvil> It'll stop charging.
Jun 20 10:42:30 <aloril> OK, so simply read "charging" flag in Neo1973 and see how long its in effect -> calculate rough battery capacity from that
Jun 20 10:42:46 <SpeedEvil> It's probably easier for the user just to input it.
Jun 20 10:43:14 <SpeedEvil> Sorry - I'm not seeing what you're trying to do.
Jun 20 10:43:51 <aloril> just want to see for individual batteries when to throw them away ;-)
Jun 20 10:44:11 <SpeedEvil> Then it's useless - as you can only measure several cells at once.
Jun 20 10:44:35 <SpeedEvil> Unless you're doing the step-up one cell to 5V thing.
Jun 20 10:44:37 * aloril has noticed that battery can supply 100mA for maybe 1500mAh, but 500mA only for seconds
Jun 20 10:44:56 <SpeedEvil> Tehre are nice battery chargers that give capacity readouts.
Jun 20 10:45:01 <aloril> earlier: s:mAh:mA:
Jun 20 10:45:24 <aloril> yes, but following things are not useful:
Jun 20 10:45:48 <aloril> drain at 100mA: won't tell how useful battery is at 500mA load
Jun 20 10:46:16 <aloril> charge first and then drain: battery is warm, won't tell how useful battery is at 500mA load starting from cold battery
Jun 20 10:46:22 <SpeedEvil> google impedance spectrometry
Jun 20 10:50:09 <aloril> "Is this battery useful for charging Neo1973 using something like MintyBoost?" answer can be answered probably by using extra dummy battery and see how long it actually charges Neo1973 ..
Jun 20 10:50:45 <SpeedEvil> In practice. AA cells will usually supply 500mA or 100mA perfectly well - the degradation that happens at higher charge rates only occurs at higher discharge rates.
Jun 20 10:51:50 <SpeedEvil> If the cell won't support 500mA discharge rates, then it's toast - 500mA is a very slow discharge.
Jun 20 10:52:33 <aloril> probably, but it can still support 100mA discharge rate for total of 1500mAh for example
Jun 20 10:52:41 <SpeedEvil> Um, no.
Jun 20 10:52:55 <SpeedEvil> AA batteries don't degrade that way.
Jun 20 10:53:06 <aloril> hmm.. maybe battery tester I used is deficient in some way then
Jun 20 10:53:21 <SpeedEvil> It may be that if you change the numbers to be 5A and 1A, you may get the effect you suppose.
Jun 20 10:53:54 <aloril> maybe reason is that voltage drops more with 500mA and it declares it empty while its not really yet empty
Jun 20 10:54:09 <SpeedEvil> But with a charged battery, it can support either, unless it's actively useless.
Jun 20 10:54:24 <SpeedEvil> Is it an alkaline battery tester?
Jun 20 10:54:35 <SpeedEvil> And was the cell fully charged?
Jun 20 10:54:46 <SpeedEvil> I'm talking of NiMH cells here.
Jun 20 10:54:54 <aloril> its MiNH charger/tester and yes it was charged with it first
Jun 20 10:55:13 <aloril> and testing == drain it until below certain voltage
Jun 20 10:55:34 <aloril> ie.. testing at 100mA can take 15h
Jun 20 10:55:41 <SpeedEvil> A usable cell will not have a significant voltage drop at 500mA.
Jun 20 10:56:06 <SpeedEvil> hang on - I'll get some graphs
Jun 20 10:56:22 <aloril> maybe tester is deficient some way, but I have seen this often with older batteries:
Jun 20 10:56:38 <aloril> charge it first, let it sit for some hours or days
Jun 20 10:56:46 <SpeedEvil> Indeed - it's just that if it won't support 500mA discharge rate, it's on its last legs.
Jun 20 10:56:56 <aloril> draining it at 100mA it tests it for > 10h
Jun 20 10:57:20 <aloril> but if I select 500mA drain, voltage drops fast it it stops test in few seconds or minutes
Jun 20 10:58:06 <SpeedEvil> That is one indication of a fairly dead cell - it should easily support drains of 'C' - the capacity in one hour.
Jun 20 10:58:11 <aloril> (cutoff voltage seems to be something like 0.9V)
Jun 20 10:58:47 <aloril> yeah, but 100mA * 10h is still 1000mAh ;-)
Jun 20 11:00:39 <SpeedEvil> http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=114943&highlight=eneloop+discharge may be of interest.
Jun 20 11:01:01 <SpeedEvil> 1000mAh is a _Very_ low capacity for a modernish cell, indicating large capacity loss from new.
Jun 20 11:02:18 * aloril agrees
Jun 20 11:02:34 <aloril> original for those was 2000mAh or more
Jun 20 11:04:49 <SpeedEvil> http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=79302&highlight=eneloop+discharge - may be of interest too
Jun 20 11:11:27 <gamin> now that http://webshop.openmoko.com is open and ordering is possible, would somebody change the topic, please?
Jun 20 11:12:55 <Sup3rkiddo> gamin, hmm..it doesnt open up.
Jun 20 11:13:08 <zecke> mickey|fic: hi
Jun 20 11:13:11 <SpeedEvil> Not here.
Jun 20 11:13:22 <mickey|fic> hey zecke 
Jun 20 11:13:45 <zecke> mickey|fic: I had some spare time and read about python 3000
Jun 20 11:13:48 <gamin> Sup3rkiddo: was just wishful thinking... :p
Jun 20 11:14:02 * SpeedEvil gets out his stabbing trout.
Jun 20 11:14:58 <aloril> SpeedEvil: interesting, so it seems there is about 250kWh / battery before its time to throw it away
Jun 20 11:18:15 <SpeedEvil> Umm - no.
Jun 20 11:18:19 <SpeedEvil> At least not for AA cells.
Jun 20 11:18:44 <SpeedEvil> That'd be some 100K charges
Jun 20 11:19:04 <SpeedEvil> It's more like - at best - 3000Wh or maybe a little better.
Jun 20 11:19:18 <Sup3rkiddo> guys, should i do a build from scratch or is the problem known http://pastebin.ca/578714
Jun 20 11:22:44 <aloril> SpeedEvil: of course, why did I add that  k ;-)
Jun 20 11:23:57 <SpeedEvil> 250Wh is only really if you need a battery within a few percent of its maximum. Most quality cells are performing quite usably at 100 cycles.
Jun 20 11:24:27 <SpeedEvil> Unless you are really abusing them - and charging/discharging extremely fast, or storing them at high temp.
Jun 20 11:25:43 <aloril> anyway, seems like 30 cents / day to use Neo1973 reasonably heavily without wall socket
Jun 20 11:27:13 <aloril> 250e3/(0.2*5*3600) -> 70h / each AA battery (not counting voltage conversion losses, but I guess additional cycles could cover it)
Jun 20 11:28:10 <Tv> webshop.openmoko.com doesn't resolve for me..
Jun 20 11:29:02 <aloril> Tv: I think he was just joking
Jun 20 11:29:48 <Tv> joke about a topic like that
Jun 20 11:29:56 <Tv> he should expect to be trampled by the masses ;)
Jun 20 11:30:18 * Sup3rkiddo is fat and tramples gamin 
Jun 20 11:30:23 <Tv> my nokia6600 heard rumors and is failing a lot more often these days
Jun 20 11:30:33 <guaqua> Tv: same here :/
Jun 20 11:31:05 <aloril> SpeedEvil: that page also has hill in first diagram at cycle 150: I guess this is "must be warm/hot or use slow discharge"
Jun 20 11:35:32 <SpeedEvil> It's not a steep dropoff in capacity with cycles - but generally slow
Jun 20 12:24:18 <LoDown> how would i make a suggestion for a UI change?
Jun 20 12:24:54 <Elrond> a) Tey the community ml
Jun 20 12:24:59 <Elrond> b) Try some more appropiate ML
Jun 20 12:25:36 <Elrond> c) If you think, it's really 200% important NOW, then file a bug.
Jun 20 12:26:22 <Elrond> b) The "framework-devel" ML might be more appropiate.
Jun 20 12:26:59 <Elrond> If you want more general discussion on it, to make sure, that there is some need for it, etc. choose (a).
Jun 20 12:27:40 <zecke> LoDown: implement it, write a paper why it is a better approach and attach the paper+patch to the bug tracker
Jun 20 12:28:12 <LoDown> zecke: don't know if I'm all that good ::grin::
Jun 20 12:28:14 <Elrond> hehe... the killer-statement "send patch" ;o)
Jun 20 12:28:29 <LoDown> most definitely
Jun 20 12:28:58 <Elrond> One project pissed me completely away with that statement. They couldn't say anything else.
Jun 20 12:32:58 <SpeedEvil> Even just a mockup, in animated GIF, flash, or interpretive dance can be worthwhile.
Jun 20 12:33:38 <Tv> interpretive dance given deeper meaning by wild gesticulation over a whiteboard with mystic runes
Jun 20 12:33:43 <Tv> that's my favorite
Jun 20 12:34:21 <rwhitby> Youtube demo of the new UI in operation is a must, of course.
Jun 20 12:34:22 <SpeedEvil> The altar of the god P'wah Poiintus.
Jun 20 12:35:17 <Elrond> *G*
Jun 20 12:36:22 <SpeedEvil> It's not that bad to fake up an interface in javascript + browser or something though.
Jun 20 12:39:57 <kiney> counter
Jun 20 12:39:57 <aloril> http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter 70% for P1: a week, a day 23:39:59 (8.986±9.0 days) (1528;234)
Jun 20 13:12:05 <pH5> Elrond: stupid readline console for hh in c: http://www.pastebin.no/2130
Jun 20 13:19:54 <Lorphos> so, how good is the GPS in real life testing?
Jun 20 13:20:15 <Lorphos> have you compared it to other receivers?
Jun 20 13:22:42 <guaqua> neo's gps isn't working yet
Jun 20 13:26:26 <mjr> people have gotten locations out of it using the binary provided, though?
Jun 20 13:26:44 <pH5> guaqua: that's not entirely true. the p1 devices were delivered with a diagnostic program of some sort that ...
Jun 20 13:26:52 <pH5> mjr: right, what you said.
Jun 20 13:29:07 <koen> pH5: where are the OE recipes to build ipks(TM) for sphydra?
Jun 20 13:29:08 <koen> ;)
Jun 20 13:30:42 <guaqua> pH5: oh...didn't realize that
Jun 20 13:34:11 <juco> the gps is lacking a driver?
Jun 20 13:35:31 <koen> no, it's lacking an open source protocol parser
Jun 20 13:35:49 <Placid> is the implementation of such a parser a big task, koen?
Jun 20 13:36:09 <koen> ask the http://projects.linuxtogo.org/plugins/scmsvn/viewcvs.php/?root=sphyrna guys :)
Jun 20 13:36:55 <juco> oh, that makes more sense
Jun 20 13:37:15 <juco> I thought that the gps available over rs232
Jun 20 13:37:50 <koen> juco: it is
Jun 20 13:38:30 <juco> but the manufacturer hasn't or won't provide the protocol spec?
Jun 20 13:38:33 <Tv> but it's not just NMEA
Jun 20 13:39:55 <guaqua> what is the exact problem with the binary module? or have they not provided one?
Jun 20 13:40:36 <Placid> it's proprietory 
Jun 20 13:41:02 <guaqua> i know that...
Jun 20 13:41:03 <juco> koen, do you know if someone is in the process of reversing the protocol using the binary?
Jun 20 13:41:13 <guaqua> juco: yes there is someone doing it
Jun 20 13:41:17 <koen> scroll up 5 minutes
Jun 20 13:41:29 <Placid> <koen> ask the http://projects.linuxtogo.org/plugins/scmsvn/viewcvs.php/?root=sphyrna guys :)
Jun 20 13:41:35 <Placid> :D
Jun 20 13:43:00 <juco> http://projects.linuxtogo.org/projects/sphyrna/
Jun 20 13:43:38 <Richard_> Does openmoko consider to use pulseaudio to control audio status?
Jun 20 13:44:05 <mickey|fic> yes, we are toying around with it atm.
Jun 20 13:44:51 <raster> pulse audio looks decent
Jun 20 13:47:28 * koen hides the crabs from raster 
Jun 20 13:47:30 <mickey|fic> i agree
Jun 20 13:49:45 <raster> cwabs!
Jun 20 13:49:49 <raster> i likes me kwabs
Jun 20 13:50:41 <koen> crabs like your camera as well
Jun 20 13:51:53 <Placid> heh, "cwabs"
Jun 20 13:56:00 <raster> me gots ma kwabz
Jun 20 13:58:10 <Sup3rkiddo>  mickey|fic, how about efl or clutter for some graphics eye candy stuff
Jun 20 13:58:52 <mickey|fic> yes, these libraries are on our radar...
Jun 20 13:59:08 <Sup3rkiddo> kewl
Jun 20 14:00:08 <koen> mickey|fic: does expedite work for you?
Jun 20 14:00:24 <koen> mickey|fic: for sirfred and me it just draws wrongly coloured pixels
Jun 20 14:01:26 <mickey|fic> koen: i had it working on the Neo a couple of days ago
Jun 20 14:03:47 <raster> koen: which engine?
Jun 20 14:03:56 <koen> x11
Jun 20 14:07:49 <gamin> what library is the email part of the messages application based on?
Jun 20 14:08:27 <gamin> the stuff that is in svn is only about sms..
Jun 20 14:08:31 <mickey|fic> i'm afraid there is no functionality behind email yet, however it's supposed to use libcamel -- in either of the two incarnations
Jun 20 14:08:53 <raster> koen: interesting/ that should work.
Jun 20 14:08:53 <gamin> is o-hand working on that?
Jun 20 14:09:54 <koen> raster: http://www.angstrom-distribution.org/~koen/expedite.png
Jun 20 14:10:50 <koen> tapping on the screen leads to weirdly coloured pixels
Jun 20 14:11:25 <zecke> koen: using eabi?
Jun 20 14:11:46 <koen> zecke: what else?
Jun 20 14:11:55 <raster> koen: hmm - thats probably because it can't find its data?
Jun 20 14:12:02 <koen> raster: http://www.angstrom-distribution.org/~koen/expedite2.png <- weird pixels
Jun 20 14:12:07 <raster> it needs to find its images - u need to "make install"?
Jun 20 14:12:18 <raster> almost certainly not able to load images
Jun 20 14:12:21 <raster> so either
Jun 20 14:12:25 <koen> I did 'ipkg install expedite'
Jun 20 14:12:27 <raster> png loader moduel is not compiled
Jun 20 14:12:32 <raster> or not installed
Jun 20 14:12:39 <raster> or the expetdite install is missing image data
Jun 20 14:12:43 <raster> or its in the wrong place
Jun 20 14:12:44 <raster> or both
Jun 20 14:12:55 <koen> root@hx4700:/usr/share/expedite/data# ls -la
Jun 20 14:12:56 <koen> drwxr-xr-x    2 root     root            0 Jun 16 14:59 .
Jun 20 14:12:56 <koen> drwxr-xr-x    3 root     root            0 Jun 19 18:45 ..
Jun 20 14:12:57 <koen> root@hx4700:/usr/share/expedite/data# 
Jun 20 14:13:10 <raster> nada
Jun 20 14:13:40 <raster> i didnt put error checking into the image loads
Jun 20 14:13:44 <raster> didnt see the point :)
Jun 20 14:13:53 <raster> evas can do it
Jun 20 14:13:55 * koen ipkg install expedite-themes
Jun 20 14:13:56 <aloril> (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Wish_List]] [[Voice_Mailbox]] [[Image_talk:GTK-OM-widgets.jpg]] [[Buying_Interest_List]]
Jun 20 14:14:00 <raster> you just need to check the laod error status
Jun 20 14:14:18 <raster> really expedite's data goes with expedite
Jun 20 14:14:21 <raster> it relies on it
Jun 20 14:14:28 <raster> in fact as a benchmark tool
Jun 20 14:14:36 <raster> its essential the data is identical in all installs
Jun 20 14:14:43 <raster> also for correctness checks
Jun 20 14:15:04 <koen> raster: I compiled evas for avr32 and hoping to test it tomorrow
Jun 20 14:15:17 <raster> :)
Jun 20 14:15:17 <raster> nb
Jun 20 14:15:23 <raster> disabling dithering will look uglier in 16bpp
Jun 20 14:15:25 <raster> but be faster
Jun 20 14:15:36 <raster> also there is a small dither mask option which is faster than the large ones
Jun 20 14:15:38 <raster> still nice
Jun 20 14:15:42 <raster> but not quite as smooth
Jun 20 14:15:47 <raster> but still good
Jun 20 14:15:56 <raster> k-s[WORK] added the no dither option
Jun 20 14:16:29 <raster> the software-16 engine k-s[WORK] has been working on is a "yet even faster just for 16bpp display on a LOCAL xserver" engine that sacrifices some display quality for speed
Jun 20 14:17:20 <k-s[WORK]> raster: I want to add dither on image load
Jun 20 14:17:35 <k-s[WORK]> (add it BACK, but at image load instead of blit)
Jun 20 14:17:51 <koen> raster: http://www.angstrom-distribution.org/~koen/expedite3.png
Jun 20 14:18:11 <k-s[WORK]> koen: cool!
Jun 20 14:18:20 <mickey|fic> that looks better
Jun 20 14:18:24 <k-s[WORK]> koen: yestereday night I've submitted font_draw support for software_16
Jun 20 14:18:29 <k-s[WORK]> koen: please test :-)
Jun 20 14:19:07 <raster> k-s[WORK]: yeah. i want to too - but that can wait
Jun 20 14:19:08 <Lorphos> regarding the gps - does it work with the proprietary driver yet?
Jun 20 14:19:22 <raster> k-s[WORK]: workies!
Jun 20 14:19:28 <raster> problem is its too wide for the 640x480
Jun 20 14:19:40 <raster> i need to make expedite handle a range of resolutions better
Jun 20 14:19:49 <k-s[WORK]> raster: yes :-P
Jun 20 14:20:03 <raster> expedite is a work in progress as far as a benchmark squite goes
Jun 20 14:20:08 <k-s[WORK]> raster: maybe improve cmdline parsing to get a WxH
Jun 20 14:20:11 <raster> but its not a bad start as you can isolate tests
Jun 20 14:20:30 <raster> k-s[WORK]: no. i want to have a universal way of benchamrkign evas across all ranges of devices and resolutions
Jun 20 14:20:39 <raster> i probably need to have multiple benchmarks
Jun 20 14:20:40 <raster> like
Jun 20 14:20:43 <raster> QVGA
Jun 20 14:20:45 <raster> VGA
Jun 20 14:20:51 <raster> WVGA
Jun 20 14:20:53 <raster> etc.
Jun 20 14:21:07 <koen> portrait qvga, portrait vga, etc
Jun 20 14:21:07 <raster> and expedite just takes an option as to which one u are doing
Jun 20 14:21:11 <raster> yup
Jun 20 14:21:32 <raster> so a device with a high res screen (eg n800) can run ALL benchmarks
Jun 20 14:21:36 <raster> form QVGa up
Jun 20 14:21:43 <koen> EVAS: error: viewport size != output size!
Jun 20 14:21:49 <raster> a QVGA ipaq 3660 can only run the WVGa benchmark
Jun 20 14:22:00 <raster> but the idea is that there will always be some common benchmark between all devices
Jun 20 14:22:13 <raster> koen: yeah. it doesnt like that matchmox resized the window
Jun 20 14:22:18 <raster> matcbox
Jun 20 14:22:28 <raster> expedite does set min size to bigger than your vga
Jun 20 14:22:30 <k-s[WORK]> raster: we could have Evas to test different engines and provide summary at the end
Jun 20 14:22:33 <k-s[WORK]> :-)
Jun 20 14:22:46 <koen> something like cairo-perf would be neat to spot regressions
Jun 20 14:22:59 <raster> k-s[WORK]: you want expedite to be able to run the test on several engines in one go?
Jun 20 14:23:06 <raster> (instead of runing it multiple times)?
Jun 20 14:23:18 <raster> koen: expedite is meantt to be that
Jun 20 14:23:33 <raster> koen: for now i'm just adding tests - but eventually every time someone spots an issue i will add a test to expedite
Jun 20 14:23:48 <k-s[WORK]> raster: yes, also spoting winners and doing gains from one to other
Jun 20 14:24:25 <raster> i actually was wanting to add a full stat gathering AND display part of expedite
Jun 20 14:24:32 <raster> every time u run something it saves the result to a file
Jun 20 14:24:39 <raster> and it has a menu option to "display stats"
Jun 20 14:24:45 <raster> and it will draw the perf graphs for you
Jun 20 14:24:46 <CIA-24> openmoko: 03laforge * r2308 10/trunk/src/target/kernel/patches/gta01-jbt6k74.patch: 
Jun 20 14:24:46 <CIA-24> openmoko: * actually transition to the new state, if state change was successful
Jun 20 14:24:46 <CIA-24> openmoko: * fix parsing of state name if presented from userspace via sysfs
Jun 20 14:24:48 <raster> over time
Jun 20 14:27:55 <koen> 10.37 , EVAS SPEED
Jun 20 14:28:15 <koen> 624MHz ARMv5te
Jun 20 14:28:29 <raster> wow
Jun 20 14:28:33 <raster> thats one fast arm
Jun 20 14:28:53 <koen> no, it's an intel one
Jun 20 14:29:02 <koen> OMG MHZ!!!!!!!
Jun 20 14:29:06 <raster> hahahahhaa
Jun 20 14:29:12 <raster> 31337 MHZ
Jun 20 14:29:28 <koen> it feels fast because it has a 200MHz memory bus
Jun 20 14:29:29 <raster> let me rebuild efl for the n800 with the new software-16 engine
Jun 20 14:29:34 <raster> aaah
Jun 20 14:29:38 <raster> fast mem bus is good
Jun 20 14:29:42 <raster> slow mem busses SUCK
Jun 20 14:30:01 <raster> everyone always goes OMFGZ!!! 2387902mhz!
Jun 20 14:30:07 <raster> but they forget the memory bus still runs at 2mhz
Jun 20 14:30:32 <raster> dual core cpu's are a little bit of a disappointment on the x86 side
Jun 20 14:30:35 <koen> that's why the older ipaqs have such fast graphics: decent bus to the framebuffer
Jun 20 14:30:37 <raster> they still have 1 fsb to share
Jun 20 14:30:52 <raster> and if you do rendering wi9th 2 threads (ie play simd games - but with the cpu)
Jun 20 14:30:59 <raster> you dont get a 2x speedup
Jun 20 14:31:07 <raster> for plain alpha blending on x86 its 0% faster
Jun 20 14:31:15 <k-s[WORK]> koen: are you testing with x11?
Jun 20 14:31:16 <raster> so the code is ltierally blending at fsb speed
Jun 20 14:31:42 <koen> k-s[WORK]: yes
Jun 20 14:31:57 <koen> the x11-16 engine wasn't enabled
Jun 20 14:32:00 <k-s[WORK]> ok, please send me the comparison with x11-16
Jun 20 14:32:13 <k-s[WORK]> yes, you need to compile evas with it (explicit)
Jun 20 14:32:17 * koen pokes mickey|fic to add them
Jun 20 14:32:19 <k-s[WORK]> then recomplie expedite
Jun 20 14:33:25 <ewon> anyone tried writing anything in pygtk on the openmoko?
Jun 20 14:33:34 <ewon> s/writing/running/
Jun 20 14:33:35 <apt> ewon meant: anyone tried running anything in pygtk on the openmoko?
Jun 20 14:34:26 * raster watches scratchbox do its thing
Jun 20 14:34:31 <raster> i do have to say
Jun 20 14:34:36 <raster> i've fallen in love with scratchbox
Jun 20 14:34:41 <raster> man is it ever convenient
Jun 20 14:35:26 <k-s[WORK]> raster: sb2 will be even better
Jun 20 14:35:49 <koen> scarebox
Jun 20 14:39:01 <raster> k-s[WORK]: in what way?
Jun 20 14:39:35 <k-s[WORK]> raster: today it's a mess of scripts and environment variables, they're cleaning much stuff
Jun 20 14:39:51 <raster> crap
Jun 20 14:39:55 <raster> edje_cc barfed again
Jun 20 14:41:26 <k-s[WORK]> ?
Jun 20 14:42:34 <raster> it WAs working
Jun 20 14:42:50 <raster> oooh
Jun 20 14:43:59 <raster> hi res pda profile is borned for the theme
Jun 20 14:44:01 <raster> maybe
Jun 20 14:44:08 <raster> hmm
Jun 20 14:44:09 <raster> no
Jun 20 15:32:31 * k-s[WORK] is away: lunch
Jun 20 15:45:18 <raster> koen: ok- got it going
Jun 20 15:45:27 <raster> teethnig issues with qemu + gcc + cflags
Jun 20 15:46:00 <raster> for x11-16
Jun 20 15:53:55 <empty_mind> counter
Jun 20 15:53:56 <aloril> http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter 70% for P1: a week, a day 22:03:00 (8.919±8.9 days) (1529;234)
Jun 20 15:54:40 <koen> hmmm, expedite segfaults after a few tests with x11-16
Jun 20 15:54:47 <koen> 13.74 , Image Quality Scale
Jun 20 15:54:47 <koen> EVAS: error: viewport size != output size!
Jun 20 15:54:48 <koen> Segmentation fault
Jun 20 15:54:51 <raster> koen: not surprising
Jun 20 15:54:57 <raster> x11-16 is nowhere near complete or stable yet
Jun 20 15:55:17 <raster> the outbuf handling is probably wrong with the shm buffer for that
Jun 20 15:56:06 <raster> oh bollocks
Jun 20 15:56:09 <raster> i didnt test xrender
Jun 20 15:56:12 <raster> will do soon
Jun 20 15:56:21 <raster> just testign the rendering teests that software-x11 handles so far
Jun 20 15:57:24 <raster> just getting stats
Jun 20 15:58:09 <empty_mind> hey raster
Jun 20 15:58:15 <raster> empty_mind:  yo
Jun 20 16:01:39 <raster> almost
Jun 20 16:01:41 <raster> 2 tests left
Jun 20 16:01:50 <raster> 1
Jun 20 16:05:43 <ewon> is anyone aware if the moko is quick enough to run pygtk apps?
Jun 20 16:05:57 <ewon> nothing too fancy
Jun 20 16:07:26 <pH5> Elrond: 
Jun 20 16:07:47 <raster> heheheh
Jun 20 16:07:51 <raster> even with blitting
Jun 20 16:07:58 <raster> xrender is slow
Jun 20 16:12:56 <aloril> (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[User:Minime/sketch]]
Jun 20 16:15:26 <empty_mind> ewon: i had been able to run python. but yet to run pygtk apps
Jun 20 16:15:30 <raster> koen: ok- xrender is going to be too slow to be useful
Jun 20 16:19:59 <pH5> Elrond: the 0xff packets seem really just to be some register/memory/whatever read command
Jun 20 16:20:50 <pH5> Elrond: try sending a "ff 04 fd c0 00 fc" packet and then increase the 5th ('CMD') byte and look what happens. try with different lengths.
Jun 20 16:21:15 <ewon> empty_mind: thanks
Jun 20 16:23:06 <raster> these lasts test are going to kill
Jun 20 16:25:13 <pH5> Elrond: at least the 'flags' are set to 4 or c
Jun 20 16:26:10 <pH5> s/the/when the/
Jun 20 16:26:10 <apt> pH5 meant: Elrond: at least when the 'flags' are set to 4 or c
Jun 20 16:30:56 <aloril> (script) openmoko-community: Sean Moss-Pultz <sean at openmoko.com> rough seas
Jun 20 16:31:54 <Elrond> pH5 - Huh, strange.
Jun 20 16:33:49 <pH5> Elrond: we should be able to make a complete register/memory/whatever dump after each SEND command and see if we can find corresponding changes.
Jun 20 16:34:13 <raster> koen: http://www.rasterman.com/files/n800-engines.pdf
Jun 20 16:34:16 <pH5> Elrond: any idea what the max value for the length byte is?
Jun 20 16:35:20 <raster> koen:  xrender's last 3 tests i got bored of waiting to finish
Jun 20 16:35:26 <raster> so slow
Jun 20 16:36:26 <raster> so the x11-16 engine definitely is showign speedups - in its preliminary state
Jun 20 16:36:44 <pH5> Elrond: 0x7d
Jun 20 16:36:51 <raster> from marginal (112% of base framerate)
Jun 20 16:36:57 <raster> so 265%
Jun 20 16:37:08 <pH5> most of those words returned seem to be either 00000000 or 100971f2 though
Jun 20 16:37:10 <raster> k-s[WORK]: http://www.rasterman.com/files/n800-engines.pdf
Jun 20 16:38:12 <DukeOfURL> does anyone know how much PCB real estate an RFID receiver would occupy?
Jun 20 16:38:31 * k-s[WORK] is back.
Jun 20 16:39:03 <SpeedEvil> DukeOfURL: Almost a meaningless question.
Jun 20 16:39:12 <SpeedEvil> DukeOfURL: There are _so_ many standards.
Jun 20 16:39:31 <DukeOfURL> is there a receiver on a chip?
Jun 20 16:39:33 <SpeedEvil> DukeOfURL: it's generally the transmitter coil that uses up a reasonable amount of volume.
Jun 20 16:39:53 <SpeedEvil> DukeOfURL: I've not seen multi-standard chips.
Jun 20 16:40:49 <DukeOfURL> single standard chip?  how much volume?
Jun 20 16:40:52 <buz> seans mails get more and more useless
Jun 20 16:41:07 <SpeedEvil> They are IIRC quite small. The problem is that the transmitter coil is large.
Jun 20 16:41:08 <hrw> buz: he has less and less time to write them
Jun 20 16:41:47 <buz> obviously, he doesn't scale
Jun 20 16:41:48 <buz> SCNR
Jun 20 16:41:49 <SpeedEvil> In general, the coil can pick up ID chips from 2 diameters away or so, centred on the coil, max.
Jun 20 16:42:12 <pH5> Elrond: we have 64 words here. after that it repeats itself
Jun 20 16:42:38 <pH5> and only 20 of those contain something that looks like useful data
Jun 20 16:43:33 <summatusmentis> does the neo1973(when released to consumers) have a dock?
Jun 20 16:43:45 <SpeedEvil> summatusmentis: No
Jun 20 16:43:57 <SpeedEvil> summatusmentis: and the only possible dock connector won't work for it.
Jun 20 16:44:14 <SpeedEvil> summatusmentis: so a dock is basically not possible, you're going to have to plug it in every time.
Jun 20 16:44:43 <summatusmentis> just the shape of it? or dock connector proprietary-ness?
Jun 20 16:44:44 <buz> i wonder if you could do a stupid dock with an usb plug
Jun 20 16:44:50 <SpeedEvil> No.
Jun 20 16:45:01 <SpeedEvil> The tollerances you need to safely mate are too small.
Jun 20 16:45:19 <summatusmentis> mass market in 6months?!? what happened to sept.?
Jun 20 16:45:22 <SpeedEvil> The difference between sliding in cleanly, and buggering the connector is small.
Jun 20 16:45:25 <DukeOfURL> SpeedEvil: that's why the antennas at the retail stores are so large...
Jun 20 16:45:33 <SpeedEvil> summatusmentis: September has been delayed.
Jun 20 16:45:45 <summatusmentis> SpeedEvil: no kidding :-P why?
Jun 20 16:45:53 <summatusmentis> software?
Jun 20 16:45:59 <SpeedEvil> summatusmentis: too little time to do the software presumably.
Jun 20 16:46:07 <buz> i somehow dont see how you can go week after week telling we will soon release info
Jun 20 16:46:11 <SpeedEvil> Initially - it was going to be Jan-Sep to do the software.
Jun 20 16:46:11 <buz> usually only politicians do that
Jun 20 16:46:23 <SpeedEvil> Jul-Sep is silly
Jun 20 16:46:30 <summatusmentis> mmm, bummer, I was sort of hpiong it'd be ready in sept.
Jun 20 16:46:42 <SpeedEvil> Unless they actually pay lots of people, they are not going to get working stuff by Sep.
Jun 20 16:46:56 <summatusmentis> hoping* I need a new contract/phone, and this would be ideal
Jun 20 16:47:13 <SpeedEvil> There will be a working phone with wifi, and improving apps, come Sep.
Jun 20 16:47:28 <SpeedEvil> It will probably not be end-user-polished.
Jun 20 16:47:32 <buz> i believe that GTA02 will ship in sept when i hold one in my hands
Jun 20 16:47:36 <summatusmentis> but functional at least
Jun 20 16:47:52 <SpeedEvil> I was assuming P1+
Jun 20 16:48:00 <buz> GTA02 is p1+
Jun 20 16:48:15 <SpeedEvil> Oh.
Jun 20 16:48:29 <buz> unless there's another device i havent yet heard of
Jun 20 16:48:52 <summatusmentis> P1+ will have most functionality(txt, mms, phone, gps, wifi) all available? just not... pretty-fied?
Jun 20 16:49:05 <summatusmentis> and mobile web
Jun 20 16:49:06 <buz> as for mms probably no
Jun 20 16:49:18 <buz> web only if someone ports a browser
Jun 20 16:49:24 <buz> (yes in this case it DOES mean porting)
Jun 20 16:49:36 <SpeedEvil> I'm going to see how much I can slim down FF trivially.
Jun 20 16:49:41 * SpeedEvil is Craaaaazy!.
Jun 20 16:49:53 <pH5> Elrond: yes, at least for FL=4 the fe packets just write to the registers/memory and the ff packet triggers a read back from that region
Jun 20 16:50:11 <pH5> and what we thought was the packet type / CMD is really the register offset
Jun 20 16:51:25 <summatusmentis> buz: completely different arch?
Jun 20 16:51:46 <buz> no different environment
Jun 20 16:51:46 <summatusmentis> hence the porting issue
Jun 20 16:51:53 <raster> snoozsors
Jun 20 16:51:57 <summatusmentis> what do you mean?
Jun 20 16:51:59 <buz> you cant just stick FF on openmoko
Jun 20 16:52:03 <buz> you need to slim it
Jun 20 16:52:05 <buz> way down
Jun 20 16:52:10 <summatusmentis> minimo?
Jun 20 16:52:11 <buz> and stick a new ui on it
Jun 20 16:52:24 <buz> minimo currently only works on windows mobile,
Jun 20 16:52:27 <buz> and barely o
Jun 20 16:52:32 <woglinde> *g*
Jun 20 16:52:46 <roh> buz do not bother. ff will not happen to end up in a mobile device.
Jun 20 16:52:51 <woglinde> he roh
Jun 20 16:52:59 <roh> hey woglinde 
Jun 20 16:53:00 <summatusmentis> buz: I've got minimo on my Zaurus, it's not only WIndows Mobile
Jun 20 16:53:01 <raster> too fat
Jun 20 16:53:04 <buz> sasy who
Jun 20 16:53:08 <buz> says
Jun 20 16:53:19 <SpeedEvil> Context is - I'm running FF on a PII/300/128M at the moment, with 30 tabs open.
Jun 20 16:53:31 <buz> it wouldnt really be firefox, more like mobile gecko
Jun 20 16:53:48 <summatusmentis> again, minimo works on embedded linux
Jun 20 16:53:48 <zecke> Everybody wants a browser with three different string implementations, that makes the codebase so easy to understand
Jun 20 16:53:58 <roh> buz tried it. mobile gecko is multiple manyears away from beeing usable in any product
Jun 20 16:54:57 <roh> zecke hehe... do not let yourself be bothered with such a discussion ;) i think google knew why the soc was a good idea
Jun 20 16:55:00 <summatusmentis> alright, so, unless something drastic happens, I should plan on not having P1+ available when I need new phone right?
Jun 20 16:55:14 * unknown_lamer backs together mobile-clim and starts working on closure again
Jun 20 16:55:25 <SpeedEvil> Pretty much worst case, the P1 device will be available.
Jun 20 16:55:30 <SpeedEvil> Which has no wifi/...
Jun 20 16:55:52 <summatusmentis> SpeedEvil: is wifi gonna be the only improvement?
Jun 20 16:55:52 <SpeedEvil> That's assuming the total worst case doesn't happen, and P1 doesn't ship.
Jun 20 16:56:02 <SpeedEvil> Wifi, and more memory, and larger processor
Jun 20 16:56:07 <SpeedEvil> more flash
Jun 20 16:56:13 <summatusmentis> is it slow now?
Jun 20 16:56:21 <SpeedEvil> 266Mhz isn't very slow IMO.
Jun 20 16:56:27 <SpeedEvil> Think P100 or so class.
Jun 20 16:56:38 <woglinde> speedevil but video decoding
Jun 20 16:56:50 <summatusmentis> agreed, I'm just not familiar w/ it
Jun 20 16:56:56 <SpeedEvil> woglinde: it will do decoding to QVGA of selected video
Jun 20 16:57:10 <summatusmentis> alright, so worst case, I run angstrom on the P1 :-) thanks all
Jun 20 16:57:31 <summatusmentis> assuming the opnemoko UI isn't ready at that point
Jun 20 16:57:34 <koen> SpeedEvil: you can do qvga h264 decoding on a 120MHz avr32 :)
Jun 20 16:57:44 <SpeedEvil> 'selected video'
Jun 20 16:57:50 <duffyd> SpeedEvil: is there any indication when the wifi-capable version will be out, e.g. 6 months / longer...
Jun 20 16:58:15 <summatusmentis> duffyd: that's P1+, and apparently current plan is sept.
Jun 20 16:58:24 <roh> koen which you cannot compare to normal arm9 cpus which know of no float or vector... arm11 would be a closer match
Jun 20 16:58:25 <duffyd> summatusmentis: thanks :-)
Jun 20 16:58:47 <summatusmentis> sure thing duffyd, but I guess it's possible that may not happen, we'll see
Jun 20 16:58:47 <duffyd> I guess I'll be opting for a P1 then ;-)
Jun 20 16:58:57 <summatusmentis> me too, probably
Jun 20 16:59:05 <koen> roh: avr32 doesn't have a fpu
Jun 20 16:59:05 <SpeedEvil> Is this to measure power in something?
Jun 20 16:59:16 <duffyd> summatusmentis: as I'm in Taiwan up until September so wanna get one before I go :-)
Jun 20 16:59:51 <pH5> Elrond: I think L means "read 32bit register L+1 times" and flag 0x4 is "increase offset after each read" whereas CMD is the starting offset
Jun 20 16:59:54 <roh> koen but it can handle vector-arithmetics if i've read the docs right and thats what gived it the edge on video processing compared to traditional embedded cpus
Jun 20 16:59:57 <summatusmentis> duffyd: :-P I'm gonna wait till I get to college(no coverage for my current phone, gsm is the only option) then probably buy a stupid little phone w/ the contract, and spend my money on the P1
Jun 20 17:00:28 <summatusmentis> thanks all
Jun 20 17:00:32 * summatusmentis leaves for lunch
Jun 20 17:00:34 <duffyd> summatusmentis: cool
Jun 20 17:01:17 <pH5> Elrond: "SEND L 02 CH 0 FL 0 CMD 08: 00002040 00002040 00002044" probably writes three times to the same register at offset 8
Jun 20 17:03:29 <aloril2> summatusmentis: too early to say what will be done by September, depends on what people do with their Neos ;-)  (it should have at least some kind of Go program ;-)
Jun 20 17:05:15 <koen> pH5: so sphyrna could be 'functional' before the neo goes on sale?
Jun 20 17:07:55 <pH5> koen: if you let me play with the registers and not bother learning autoconf or distutils to write a decent .bb, maybe ;)
Jun 20 17:08:17 <pH5> after the initial setup, apart from the occasional read of register 0x16 (the ms counter), the only thing that happens on channel 0 is register 0x08 being switched between 00006040 and 00002040
Jun 20 17:10:13 <pH5> the channels 1-8 seem to work similar. different registers and all, but length/offset/flag 0x4 work the same.
Jun 20 17:12:15 <woglinde> ph5 he autoconf
Jun 20 17:12:42 <pH5> Elrond: that would mean that those 0x23 packets (with the 12bit values) are readouts of the same register over time?
Jun 20 17:12:59 <koen> s/autoconf/install -m755/ :)
Jun 20 17:13:24 <pH5> yeah :)
Jun 20 17:15:10 <pH5> bbl
Jun 20 17:20:09 <SpeedEvil> Hmm. I wonder if some of the 'registers' could be FIFOs.
Jun 20 17:28:51 <Elrond> Some of them are triggers.
Jun 20 17:29:03 <Elrond> And I guess, some are fifos, yes.
Jun 20 17:48:34 <Elrond> hehe... reading from the same register works at 96kbit/s ;o)
Jun 20 17:48:59 <Elrond> With peak of about 160kbit/s
Jun 20 18:12:55 <aloril> (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Wish_List]]
Jun 20 18:16:17 <CIA-24> openmoko: 03andrew * r2309 10/trunk/src/host/qemu-neo1973/ (gnokiigsm/at-emulator.c hw/modem.c hw/neo1973.c): 
Jun 20 18:16:17 <CIA-24> openmoko: Add a GSM modem power up delay so that the modem doesn't start before gsmd (gsmd should probably be started before the power gpio asserted to avoid timing issue).
Jun 20 18:16:17 <CIA-24> openmoko: Clean up parts of the AT parser.
Jun 20 18:16:17 <CIA-24> openmoko: Disable the AT greeting, make gsmd happy.
Jun 20 18:17:03 <Sup3rkiddo> will this revision solve the "couldnt connect to gsmd" issue?
Jun 20 18:17:10 * aloril2 guesses that probability of announcement in a week is 90% ;-)
Jun 20 18:17:29 <Kero> :D
Jun 20 18:17:45 <LuitvD> timer
Jun 20 18:17:49 <LuitvD> counter
Jun 20 18:17:49 <aloril> http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter 70% for P1: a week, a day 20:51:03 (8.869±8.9 days) (1530;234)
Jun 20 18:17:49 <LuitvD> XD
Jun 20 18:18:11 <Tetraden> hi
Jun 20 18:24:54 <Tetraden> Im actually on my Way to get some Information about the Neo1973 and I don't find very much hard about the WLAN. Can anyone tell me if there is a WLAN chip into the Phone?
Jun 20 18:24:55 <aloril> P1.5 will likely have WiFi (Atheros AR6K): http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/announce/2007-April/000012.html  http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973  http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ#Q:_What_is_the_rationale_behind_the_exclusion_of_WiFi.3F  (WiFi status for P1.5 will be known for sure when P1 becomes available and also what kind of discount for P1.5 is given for P1 buyers)
Jun 20 18:24:59 <CIA-24> openmoko: 03andrew * r2310 10/trunk/src/host/qemu-neo1973/ (sdl.c vl.c): On shutdown start the emulation if it's paused.
Jun 20 18:25:36 <Tetraden> OMG. sorry, I have to restart my IRC client.
Jun 20 18:25:43 <woglinde> lol
Jun 20 18:27:25 <Tetraden> so, here I am again
Jun 20 18:29:01 <Tetraden> So can anyone here tell me what sort WLAN chip is into the Neo1973
Jun 20 18:29:10 <woglinde> look at the wiki
Jun 20 18:29:16 <woglinde> will be atheros
Jun 20 18:29:36 <Tetraden> okay, thanks
Jun 20 18:30:19 <Tetraden> summatusmentis: am I the only one who thinks the Wiki is a bit chaotic?
Jun 20 18:30:57 <Tetraden> ooh, the nickname was automatic :S
Jun 20 18:31:50 <stefan_schmidt> Tetraden: If you have good idea to give the wiki a better order, go ahead.
Jun 20 18:32:52 <woglinde> wikis always are bot chaotic
Jun 20 18:32:55 <woglinde> bit
Jun 20 18:32:58 <Tetraden> may I have an idea, but I don't have the leisure *gg*
Jun 20 18:36:30 <stefan_schmidt> Tetraden: So that could be the reason why it is chaotic. Nobody has the time take care about it after adding the valuable stuff. :)
Jun 20 18:37:01 <Tetraden> :D may be ;)
Jun 20 18:38:26 <Tetraden> Is the estimated release date of phase 1 really unknown? Ore are there any internal rumors? (sorry for some stupid questions but I know about the whole project since about 1 hour)
Jun 20 18:39:05 <woglinde> the first nearly 500 are build
Jun 20 18:39:09 <woglinde> so be patient
Jun 20 18:39:22 <Tetraden> WHOOHOO! :D
Jun 20 18:40:23 <juri_> can i has free software telephone? ;P
Jun 20 18:40:47 <woglinde> free as in free beer?
Jun 20 18:40:59 <juri_> don't get me started. :)
Jun 20 18:41:28 <Tetraden> lol *signals the same as juri_* ;D
Jun 20 18:41:32 <Tetraden> nono
Jun 20 18:41:57 <Tetraden> the more interesting thing for me are the shipping costs
Jun 20 18:42:26 <Tetraden> from where will it be sent?
Jun 20 18:42:38 <woglinde> form taiwan
Jun 20 18:42:44 * aloril2 wonders if that announcement will include "you can (pre)order at ..."
Jun 20 18:42:56 <woglinde> in germany you have to pay 19% vat too
Jun 20 18:43:19 <Tetraden> arrg
Jun 20 18:43:30 * SrRaven wonders when neo1973 will be finallllllly released
Jun 20 18:43:51 <woglinde> in sommer, fall or winter?
Jun 20 18:43:55 <stefan_schmidt> woglinde: Go freelance and you can get it back from your tax station
Jun 20 18:44:01 <Tetraden> I'll buy it in Swiss and sew it into my car seat XD
Jun 20 18:44:12 <summatusmentis> SrRaven: I was wondering the same thing earlier, apparently in 6months(according to the topic)
Jun 20 18:44:17 <woglinde>  stefan_schmidt no I have to finish my diploma first
Jun 20 18:44:28 <summatusmentis> I'm probably gonna get the 'non-final' version
Jun 20 18:44:37 <SrRaven> oh 6 months
Jun 20 18:44:44 <SrRaven> Ill probably have bought a other one by than
Jun 20 18:44:52 <stefan_schmidt> woglinde: Don't remember me at university stuff. :)
Jun 20 18:45:10 <woglinde> stefan_schmidt -> remeber
Jun 20 18:45:11 <woglinde> stefan_schmidt -> remeber
Jun 20 18:45:11 <woglinde> stefan_schmidt -> remeber
Jun 20 18:45:13 <woglinde> hehe
Jun 20 18:45:22 * stefan_schmidt runs away from his pc
Jun 20 18:45:39 <summatusmentis> SrRaven: that'll be when it's mass market released
Jun 20 18:46:01 <SrRaven> I know but I doubt it will be able to keep up to my expectations
Jun 20 18:46:18 <Tetraden> holy sh*t! more than 50 Euros of tax in Germany. That sucks!
Jun 20 18:46:34 <summatusmentis> what sorts of expectations? you can get it soon-ish, but it's not... end-user ready
Jun 20 18:46:48 <woglinde> tretaden yes :( for the p1 phones we had to pay vat too
Jun 20 18:46:50 <SrRaven> im a poor student
Jun 20 18:46:54 <woglinde> but ups cheated
Jun 20 18:46:56 <woglinde> some
Jun 20 18:47:10 <woglinde> so ir ranged from nothing to 31 euros
Jun 20 18:47:18 <Hopscotch> you just had to say that it was a nonworking prototype
Jun 20 18:47:23 <Hopscotch> then it was for free
Jun 20 18:47:28 <woglinde> Hopscotch no
Jun 20 18:47:35 <woglinde> the german toll know this story
Jun 20 18:47:38 <stefan_schmidt> Hopscotch: I have done this. Still 24 Eur
Jun 20 18:47:39 <woglinde> or ups
Jun 20 18:47:45 <woglinde> 24??
Jun 20 18:47:50 <woglinde>  I payed 22
Jun 20 18:47:53 <woglinde> somewath
Jun 20 18:48:17 <Hopscotch> here it worked...
Jun 20 18:48:19 <stefan_schmidt> woglinde: moment let me search the invoice
Jun 20 18:48:24 <woglinde> Hopscotch where is here?
Jun 20 18:48:37 <Tetraden> and I live right in the Center of Germany -_-
Jun 20 18:48:48 <stefan_schmidt> woglinde: Right, 24,41. For all three phones we got in Braunschweig
Jun 20 18:48:51 <aloril2> hmm. [[Neo1973]] page needs a bit updating for P1
Jun 20 18:49:03 <Tetraden> 250 Kilometers to any border
Jun 20 18:49:47 <Hopscotch> woglinde: würzburg, bavaria, germany :)
Jun 20 18:49:54 <woglinde> stefan_schmidt I got a second letter from ups which sayed I payed 33,31, which I surely not did only payed 22
Jun 20 18:49:59 <Tetraden> lol, so much germans here
Jun 20 18:50:12 <stefan_schmidt> Hopscotch: Bavaria is the reason.  ;)
Jun 20 18:50:20 <stefan_schmidt> woglinde: Yeah, same here. No idea why
Jun 20 18:50:20 <Tetraden> :P
Jun 20 18:50:38 <woglinde> stefan_schmidt no I think I depends on the ups-agent
Jun 20 18:50:39 <stefan_schmidt> Tetraden: .de is the secret OpenMoko headquarter
Jun 20 18:50:52 <Tetraden> hehe
Jun 20 18:51:18 <Tetraden> may due to the CCC... maybe
Jun 20 18:51:26 <woglinde> hehe
Jun 20 18:51:44 <woglinde> psst
Jun 20 18:51:45 <stefan_schmidt> Tetraden: Yeah, some people from there, but not all.
Jun 20 18:52:11 <stefan_schmidt> During LinuxTag we had some hacking from OM team at CCCB. Was fun.
Jun 20 18:52:58 <Tetraden> hmm
Jun 20 18:53:54 <Tetraden> lol, lets find some people germany beneath a border and some right behind it. ;)
Jun 20 18:54:05 <woglinde> why?
Jun 20 18:55:02 <Tetraden> so taking the phones over into a pocket of a jacket and spreading them in germany
Jun 20 18:55:19 <woglinde> hm the over countryes have to pay vat too
Jun 20 18:55:53 <Tetraden> not if you have it into your pocket while vacations ;)
Jun 20 18:56:16 <Tetraden> who needs cardboards?
Jun 20 18:56:17 <woglinde> hm maybee you can travel to taiwan, but thats expensive
Jun 20 18:56:19 <stefan_schmidt> ~botmail zecke Feel pestered about going to GUADEC. I'm working on getting a nice 6 people apartment. :)
Jun 20 18:56:31 <Tetraden> lol
Jun 20 18:57:02 <stefan_schmidt> woglinde: Just calculate how much you need to bring. :)
Jun 20 18:57:14 <Tetraden> hehe
Jun 20 18:57:28 <woglinde> hm
Jun 20 18:57:36 <Tetraden> but if you take to much with you, you have to pay vat.
Jun 20 18:57:47 <woglinde> hm you can lie
Jun 20 18:57:50 <woglinde> hehe
Jun 20 18:57:59 <Tetraden> lol
Jun 20 18:58:05 <Tetraden> they are all mine
Jun 20 18:58:06 <woglinde> cheap plastic toys
Jun 20 18:58:14 <woglinde> from china
Jun 20 18:58:26 <Tetraden> I need them for myself XD
Jun 20 18:58:34 <woglinde> I collect them
Jun 20 18:58:35 <woglinde> hahah
Jun 20 18:58:42 <Tetraden> XD
Jun 20 18:58:51 <stefan_schmidt> They all have different serial numbers. ;)
Jun 20 18:59:03 <stefan_schmidt> They are unique
Jun 20 18:59:41 <buz> i still say fic should sell the phones for 100$ and force people to buy the software for 250$ then deliver software via net
Jun 20 18:59:54 <woglinde> buz???
Jun 20 18:59:57 <woglinde> its gpl
Jun 20 19:00:05 <woglinde> no one hinders you to put on webset
Jun 20 19:00:08 <woglinde> website
Jun 20 19:00:11 <woglinde> that wont work
Jun 20 19:00:12 <woglinde> hehe
Jun 20 19:01:09 <buz> well but fic online store will only sell the bundle
Jun 20 19:01:31 <buz> selling gpl stuff is ok after all ;)
Jun 20 19:01:35 <woglinde> yes
Jun 20 19:01:43 <buz> of course you have to flash it yourself
Jun 20 19:01:46 <buz> so it's a kit so to speak
Jun 20 19:01:53 <woglinde> but its also okay to put for no cost online
Jun 20 19:01:59 <buz> sure
Jun 20 19:02:04 <buz> but you can only get the phone as bundle
Jun 20 19:02:09 <woglinde> I meant someonelese
Jun 20 19:02:19 <buz> sure but who cares
Jun 20 19:02:22 <buz> fic still gets the money
Jun 20 19:03:06 <buz> and you only pay tax on the device
Jun 20 19:04:00 <woglinde> sure
Jun 20 19:05:08 <buz> you win, fic wins, tax man loses
Jun 20 19:05:40 <buz> i wonder what a neo costs to make
Jun 20 19:05:52 <buz> i'm guessing below 150$
Jun 20 19:06:12 <woglinde> hm
Jun 20 19:06:17 <woglinde> only material?
Jun 20 19:06:25 <woglinde> or planing and developing too?
Jun 20 19:06:28 <roh> its not qvga... do not forget
Jun 20 19:06:40 <buz> material + assembly
Jun 20 19:06:58 <woglinde> I dont know prices
Jun 20 19:07:01 <Tetraden> hmm, soes anyone know the shipping costs to USA off the top of the head?
Jun 20 19:07:04 <woglinde> in this quantities
Jun 20 19:07:15 <buz> well i once read a blackberry costs 120$ to make (that was some 1 year ago)
Jun 20 19:07:29 <buz> even allowing another 30$ for the vga display it still wouldnt cost more than 150$
Jun 20 19:07:46 <roh> since transportation also costs money you propably can spare more money by bulk-ordering 10 pieces instead of 10 single ones
Jun 20 19:07:47 <buz> and obviously component prices have fallen since then
Jun 20 19:07:52 <woglinde> blackbeery is cheaper quality
Jun 20 19:08:03 <buz> but keyboard is more expensive to assemble
Jun 20 19:08:52 <buz> http://hardware.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=06/07/20/2336244
Jun 20 19:10:21 <roh> buz ignoring licenses and comparing with a vendor who looses money on selling phones gets us nowhere
Jun 20 19:10:47 <buz> because fic is paying licensing fees to whom exactly?
Jun 20 19:11:08 <woglinde> bluetooth eventually?
Jun 20 19:11:14 <woglinde> but i didnt see the logo
Jun 20 19:11:15 <woglinde> *g*
Jun 20 19:11:28 <buz> might be CSR that pays for that?
Jun 20 19:11:31 <roh> buz gsm e.g. is licensed afaik
Jun 20 19:11:52 <buz> the gsm module comes from ti
Jun 20 19:12:01 <buz> no need to license that if i'm not totally wrong
Jun 20 19:12:01 <roh> buz you don't want do know how expensive 3g licenses are
Jun 20 19:12:06 <roh> buz its not a module
Jun 20 19:12:38 <buz> well its self contained in any case
Jun 20 19:12:53 <roh> and even then you'ld be paying licenses via the mocule price. you cannot skip them and it does not get cheaper
Jun 20 19:13:04 <juco> 3g licenses?
Jun 20 19:13:10 <buz> well duh, obviously blackberry would pay for their modules as well
Jun 20 19:13:11 <juco> as in HSDPA?
Jun 20 19:13:17 <woglinde> juco umts
Jun 20 19:13:19 <buz> last i heard blackberry didnt make their own gsm stack
Jun 20 19:13:28 <roh> juco not now.. sometime later ;)
Jun 20 19:13:29 <woglinde> or cdma2000
Jun 20 19:13:47 <juco> are those all qualcomm standards?
Jun 20 19:13:59 <buz> heavily patent encumbered at least
Jun 20 19:14:01 <roh> buz nobody did his own gsm stack. there are only 3 or 4 avail worldwide, the rest is branded/licensed
Jun 20 19:14:06 <woglinde> qualcom is cdam200 umts is etsi
Jun 20 19:14:09 <buz> exactl
Jun 20 19:14:10 <buz> y
Jun 20 19:14:18 <buz> and generally when you buy a chipset, you get the license with it
Jun 20 19:14:41 <roh> buz which also means you do not get around the cost of it.
Jun 20 19:14:50 <buz> the cost is in the component
Jun 20 19:15:00 <buz> so if you add up components the cost will be included in the final price
Jun 20 19:15:13 <roh> buz its not that easy
Jun 20 19:15:33 <woglinde> hm only german -> http://www.golem.de/0706/52979.html
Jun 20 19:15:34 <roh> and no i cannot discuss any details on hw-pricing
Jun 20 19:15:44 <woglinde> roh hehe
Jun 20 19:16:13 <roh> *sigh*
Jun 20 19:17:14 <roh> bbl..  need to hunt some food
Jun 20 19:17:42 <buz> boy thats ugly
Jun 20 19:19:13 <woglinde> re zecke
Jun 20 19:20:46 <buz> god damn hail storm
Jun 20 19:20:54 <buz> sounds like air gun hits at the windows
Jun 20 19:21:07 <buz> i wonder if the car will survive that
Jun 20 19:29:41 <stefan_schmidt> zecke: Got my botmail or should I pester you personally about GUADEC?
Jun 20 19:30:01 <koen> ooooh, more fun people at guadec
Jun 20 19:30:44 <stefan_schmidt> koen: yep. Where do you stay?
Jun 20 19:31:28 <koen> the formula1
Jun 20 19:32:02 <SrRaven> hmm the iphone can do youtube
Jun 20 19:32:06 <zecke> stefan_schmidt: no botmail. I have a math exam on tuesday and if I pass I will go to guadec
Jun 20 19:32:19 * koen crosses fingers for zecke
Jun 20 19:32:47 <woglinde> zecke will pass
Jun 20 19:32:49 <woglinde> I am sure
Jun 20 19:32:51 <stefan_schmidt> zecke: What kind of math?
Jun 20 19:32:58 <koen> zecke: http://3fm.nl/downloads/rekenvaardigheid.pdf http://3fm.nl/downloads/uitslag.pdf
Jun 20 19:33:18 <zecke> stefan_schmidt: analysis and such
Jun 20 19:33:26 <stefan_schmidt> koen: Noted. I'm searching for a nice 6 people apartment right now. Waiting for responses.
Jun 20 19:33:52 <stefan_schmidt> zecke: Ah, analysis is the nice math. :)
Jun 20 19:35:00 <stefan_schmidt> zecke: I also could offer Mate to get you there. ;)
Jun 20 19:35:29 <stefan_schmidt> zecke: Anyway, crossing fingers for tuesday.
Jun 20 19:40:19 <zecke> stefan_schmidt: I currently play the "Mate vs. living in absolute poverty game" and I lose too often
Jun 20 19:41:13 <stefan_schmidt> zecke: Mate goes on me.
Jun 20 19:41:35 <stefan_schmidt> zecke: I could add some more alcoholic if you like. :)
Jun 20 19:42:07 <zecke> stefan_schmidt: well, that makes me spend more than a dollar a day ;)
Jun 20 19:42:16 <stefan_schmidt> zecke: BTW, tried to do the initial commit to the bindings project again? ctai should have fixed something. Not sure is it was the right thing.
Jun 20 19:43:20 <stefan_schmidt> zecke: I still don't get why you have to live in poverty. I can't count how much job offers you have. :)
Jun 20 19:43:36 <zecke> it worked
Jun 20 19:44:14 <stefan_schmidt> heh
Jun 20 19:44:32 <stefan_schmidt> So TT pays your GUADEC trip? *caught*
Jun 20 19:44:45 <zecke> stefan_schmidt: well, in contrast to some of my friends from school I can decide to live in poverty, others are just forced to :)
Jun 20 19:44:59 <zecke> stefan_schmidt: well, Knut will be offline/on the road for another two weeks
Jun 20 19:45:37 <stefan_schmidt> zecke: So you decided to get the perspective?
Jun 20 19:46:37 <zecke> stefan_schmidt: well, I decided to see what the offer could be. But as he is on the road we have not talked too much
Jun 20 19:46:50 <zecke> http://projects.openmoko.org/plugins/scmsvn/viewcvs.php/?root=bindings yipeee
Jun 20 19:47:04 <stefan_schmidt> zecke: ah, sorry. I meant the perspective of poverty.
Jun 20 19:47:16 <zecke> (now I need to make it compile again)
Jun 20 19:47:46 <zecke> stefan_schmidt: yes, but I fail most of the days
Jun 20 19:47:52 <koen> zecke: you could sell off some of the 'embedded' processing power from all the devices you have :)
Jun 20 19:48:35 <zecke> Sup3rkiddo: do you want to join the bindings project now?
Jun 20 19:56:01 <noidd> anyone know the set command off the top of their head to change the boot timeout on the neo?
Jun 20 19:56:21 <noidd> i'm on my 10th reboot trying to catch the "send something before timeout" section on /dev/ttyACM0
Jun 20 19:57:27 <Elrond> noidd - Press AUX button while powering up.
Jun 20 19:58:12 <noidd> Yup, Boot, console usb, serial etc
Jun 20 19:58:16 <Elrond> That is: hold aux, keep it holded. Press power until neo boots, take fingers from both buttons.
Jun 20 19:58:43 <Elrond> noidd - Right. In that mode you can connect to ttyACM0 anyway. You don't have to select any option in the menu.
Jun 20 20:00:35 <Elrond> How long do I have to remove the battery to make the neo fully reset?
Jun 20 20:01:43 <noidd> awesome, thx
Jun 20 20:02:10 <Elrond> noidd - Of course you can set the bootdelay var to say 8 or so.
Jun 20 20:04:15 <Elrond> ... I did that. So I can get to u-boot easily after a reboot. Without needing to physically access the neo.
Jun 20 20:06:08 <noidd> the one thing I keep doing is "nand erase clean rootfs"
Jun 20 20:06:11 <noidd> then flashing
Jun 20 20:06:20 <noidd> then reconnecting and hitting "enter" to get a prompt
Jun 20 20:06:29 <noidd> and of course it re-runs the nand erase :-)
Jun 20 20:06:51 <Elrond> *G*
Jun 20 20:07:08 <noidd> the main problem i'm having is taht my image won't boot X right now
Jun 20 20:07:12 <noidd> invalid flag -pf
Jun 20 20:07:24 <Elrond> Do some dummy command after doing the first "nand erase rootfs".
Jun 20 20:07:27 <Elrond> Like "date"
Jun 20 20:07:29 <noidd> so I just updated and rebuilt so going to try again before I go debugging
Jun 20 20:07:40 <noidd> or help :-)
Jun 20 20:07:49 <Elrond> Yeah, or "help".
Jun 20 20:10:30 <zecke> ~lart for not updating the ChangeLog
Jun 20 20:10:30 * apt drops a baby grand on for not updating the ChangeLog
Jun 20 20:13:55 <aloril> (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Buying_Interest_List]]
Jun 20 20:14:36 <Elrond> counter
Jun 20 20:14:37 <aloril> http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter 70% for P1: a week, a day 19:52:39 (8.828±8.8 days) (1531;234)
Jun 20 20:16:27 <zecke> stefan_schmidt: sorry to abuse as proxy: Can we get CIA integration for the stuff at projects?
Jun 20 20:19:01 <Elrond> Hi pH5 
Jun 20 20:19:14 <pH5> hi Elrond 
Jun 20 20:20:03 <Elrond> pH5 - My HH moved into a crazy state: After rebooting, the first call to even your old hhtest gets only a few zero bytes.  I have now removed the battery for a while in the hope, that it will turn the chip back to normality.
Jun 20 20:21:40 <pH5> Elrond: good luck, but I still don't believe we can kill it that easily. did you play with the register readout a bit?
Jun 20 20:22:52 <Elrond> pH5 - Yep, I did. I tried the repeated read on the clockregister (16). And thus found out, that it can read at about 96000bit/s with a shortime peak of about 150000bit/s
Jun 20 20:24:48 <pH5> heh. nice.
Jun 20 20:26:49 <Elrond> This stupid chip thingy took me a while. Because I suspected a bug in my test-suite rewrite (I factored outs some hammerhead.BasePacket class for usage in sphyrna). Playing with it, always needing to reboot to get the chip into this "rebooted" state was.. not nice.
Jun 20 20:27:48 <noidd> ok, no X for me
Jun 20 20:28:12 <Elrond> noidd - The -pf bug was on bugzilla. You might want to check it.
Jun 20 20:28:32 <noidd> I've not copied the modules over yet so it might be that
Jun 20 20:28:41 <Elrond> No.
Jun 20 20:31:06 <Elrond> noidd - (have not read it myself) http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=608
Jun 20 20:32:01 <noidd> I'm looking at it now, looks like its fixed
Jun 20 20:32:54 <noidd> so I just have to update that specific package by the looks of it
Jun 20 20:32:58 <pH5> I wonder what's up with the 0x8 flag.
Jun 20 20:34:04 <Elrond> pH5 - It's a bitmask. One is a fire channel measurements trigger bit. Needs an edge to fire.
Jun 20 20:35:27 <Elrond> Another one starts the timestamping clock.
Jun 20 20:35:51 <stefan_schmidt> zecke: CIA needs a svn post-hook, right? Sadly I don't have access to the projects machine. Like to fill an enhancement bug? I'll pester some people about it when .tw is awake again
Jun 20 20:36:06 <pH5> Elrond: sorry, I meant the packet flag 0x8. 0x4 I understand, and with 0x2 I see at least something change.
Jun 20 20:36:19 <Elrond> pH5 - Ahhh.
Jun 20 20:36:26 <guaqua> what is CIA?
Jun 20 20:36:26 <pH5> Elrond: already found out which bit in register 8 starts the clock?
Jun 20 20:36:44 <pH5> I guess the measurement trigger would be the 0x4000 bit
Jun 20 20:36:49 <stefan_schmidt> ~cia
Jun 20 20:36:50 <apt> from memory, cia is a CVS/Subversion commit notification bot run on #commits among other channels, originally by scanline, http://cia.vc/, or the Central Intelligence Agency, but the bot is more important. ;)
Jun 20 20:37:10 <guaqua> okay
Jun 20 20:37:18 <guaqua> ~apt
Jun 20 20:37:19 <apt> methinks apt is the debian package manager and nothing to do with ibot, infobot, jbot or purl
Jun 20 20:37:26 <guaqua> purl :D
Jun 20 20:41:03 <pH5> Elrond: I believe in channel 1, registers 0x20 and 0x21 are increased every time when some other register on that channel is read
Jun 20 20:41:29 <Elrond> pH5 - Huh...
Jun 20 20:42:04 <pH5> and registers 0x23 and 0x2c contain a different value every time. 0x23 sounds familiar from the logs..
Jun 20 20:42:49 <Elrond> Yes.
Jun 20 20:42:56 <Elrond> 0x23 are those 16bit thingies.
Jun 20 20:43:23 * stefan_schmidt is happy seeing people going into the deep dirty internals of the HH stuff :)
Jun 20 20:43:41 <pH5> 0x20 is increased by two every time I read 0x23 :)
Jun 20 20:44:56 <pH5> and 0x21 is increased by 0x200 (or the lowest byte is not used or used for something different and it's 0x2, too)
Jun 20 20:45:38 <pH5> stefan_schmidt: I'm happy to see you happy :)
Jun 20 20:45:57 <_schurig> when something is automatically increasing when you read another register, then it might be the case that the increasing register is same pointer to an internal data structure
Jun 20 20:46:29 <zecke> stefan_schmidt: okay :)
Jun 20 20:47:13 <stefan_schmidt> zecke: We are working to get some better IT infrastructure plus administration, too. BTW :)
Jun 20 20:47:16 <_schurig> e.g. reg 0x20 could really be a u8 *ptr; and when you read 16 bits from reg 0x23, it would increment by two
Jun 20 20:47:46 <Elrond> _schurig - One can only read in multiple of 32bit.
Jun 20 20:48:05 <_schurig> ah, so thrash my guessing into the wastebasket :-)
Jun 20 20:48:07 <zecke> stefan_schmidt: admin was the job where you have little to do and can do 90% private stuff?
Jun 20 20:48:08 <pH5> _schurig: so it's u16 *ptr and 32 bits from reg 0x23, but this could well be the case.
Jun 20 20:48:36 <Elrond> Hmm, yeah.
Jun 20 20:49:05 <_schurig> you can verify this thesis be re-setting 0x20 and looking if you get the same sequence of data out of 0x23 after this (assuming reading from 0x23 doesn't always give you the same)
Jun 20 20:49:44 <Elrond> _schurig - 0x23 gives a stream.
Jun 20 20:49:57 <cdbot2> * * OM Bug 615 has been created by <zecke>
Jun 20 20:49:58 <cdbot2> * * CIA Integration for repositories at projects.openmoko.org
Jun 20 20:49:59 <cdbot2> * * http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=615
Jun 20 20:50:01 <stefan_schmidt> zecke: Everywhere else yes, but not here. Will be a hard job if you have to help people who really know how this stuff works or even hacked on it. :)
Jun 20 20:50:32 <stefan_schmidt> zecke: Just image somebody like to tell Harald something about netfilter rules :)
Jun 20 20:51:21 <Elrond> *G*
Jun 20 20:51:46 <_schurig> stefan_schmidt: or mickey about wireless security (->wellenreiter)
Jun 20 20:52:00 <zecke> stefan_schmidt: if this is a sane admin he will use *BSD and ?pf
Jun 20 20:52:03 <stefan_schmidt> _schurig: yeah
Jun 20 20:52:24 <guaqua> stefan_schmidt: not an easy place to do admining :)
Jun 20 20:53:00 <stefan_schmidt> zecke: Still unix. We will go on his nerves anyway. People who know the technology are the worst user of it. :)
Jun 20 20:53:48 <Elrond> pH5 - What confuses me then: Look at the basic channel-setup sequence: It writes at register=00..07 .. then at register 05..07.
Jun 20 20:54:18 <pH5> _schurig: I like your theory. resetting the counter seems to cause the same values to be read from 0x23 again, and although the counter counts up happily, the values seem to wrap at 0x1000
Jun 20 20:54:33 * stefan_schmidt seems to also need a personal admin, just flooded my hdd with my backup.
Jun 20 20:55:39 <stefan_schmidt> guaqua: The place is bad and great at the same time. We also understand if he needs hardware, etc..
Jun 20 20:55:56 <_schurig> pH5: nice. The you have some internal data (RAM or so) where 0x20 is the index into it. Some network chips work this way, e.g. the SMSC91111
Jun 20 20:56:03 <pH5> Elrond: the 0x05 writes have the 0x2 flag set - there something completely different happens
Jun 20 20:56:27 <pH5> Elrond: just take a len 0x3f memory dump at 0x00 with flags 0x4 or 0x6 to see the difference.
Jun 20 20:57:12 <Elrond> pH5 - Ahh. Will do, when I have the battery back. ;-)
Jun 20 20:57:13 <pH5> I hope that each channel has its own 4k block, not that we need to start thinking about memory management.
Jun 20 20:57:34 <guaqua> stefan_schmidt: if he needs hardware?
Jun 20 20:58:10 <_schurig> pH5: this network chip also has 4 banks a 8 registers ...  hope you don't have something similar
Jun 20 20:58:51 <Elrond> pH5 - 4k of those thingies... wee.
Jun 20 20:58:55 <stefan_schmidt> guaqua: Most admins have a bad position tp explain the boss why he needs something. Here we understand it and his life can be easier that way
Jun 20 20:59:20 <guaqua> stefan_schmidt: yes, i understand :) i just didn't get the he-reference
Jun 20 20:59:31 <guaqua> i do sysadmin stuff myself aswell
Jun 20 20:59:56 <Elrond> I dropped one sysadmin job basicly, because the people there gone crazy.
Jun 20 20:59:59 <guaqua> also luckily in tech-savvy environments
Jun 20 21:00:05 <stefan_schmidt> guaqua: ah, ok.
Jun 20 21:00:44 <stefan_schmidt> ok, some work toda. cu later guys
Jun 20 21:01:04 <Elrond> engineering people. And the new boss thinks, that computers need only one time buying and setup and no admin is needed. ;-)
Jun 20 21:03:03 <guaqua> admins have to take care of the stuff the engineering people never thought off
Jun 20 21:03:23 <Elrond> Oh, and the full-time admin that was brought in do to some reorganisation is... well... He's cisco certified... and now what:
Jun 20 21:04:01 <guaqua> Elrond: "cisco certified" explains alot :D
Jun 20 21:04:25 <Elrond> ... once we wanted to do some tricky network setup. He used this crappy java based remote admin tool for his super-cool pix. I finally got pissed, asked him to open putty (yep, they love windows), and did the thing in 10mins on the console.
Jun 20 21:05:00 <Elrond> ... two weeks later, he complained to me, that his gui java web thingy was b0rked. ;o)   The thing could not parse my config for the web frontend. ;o)
Jun 20 21:06:33 <Elrond> ... oh, and cisco-vpn is sooo much more secure than openssh. ;o)
Jun 20 21:09:07 <pH5> this is a complete register dump of channel 0: http://en.pastebin.ca/579831, there are only about 21 useable registers at 0x00 (repeated at 0x40 and 0x80), one at 0xc0 and some beginning at 0xe0
Jun 20 21:11:42 <Elrond> :-)
Jun 20 21:14:08 <Tetraden> Did i read this right? There is no WiFi in Phase 1? :/
Jun 20 21:14:34 <Elrond> Tetraden - Right.
Jun 20 21:14:59 <Tetraden> What a bummer! :/
Jun 20 21:15:01 <pH5> Elrond: and this is the same with flag 0x2 set: http://en.pastebin.ca/579852 not that we have something at 0x9d, 0x9e and 0x9f
Jun 20 21:15:18 <pH5> s/not/note/
Jun 20 21:15:20 <apt> pH5 meant: Elrond: and this is the same with flag 0x2 set: http://en.pastebin.ca/579852 note that we have something at 0x9d, 0x9e and 0x9f
Jun 20 21:16:13 <Elrond> pH5 - Does it have anything in common with the non-0x2 set?
Jun 20 21:16:32 <Tetraden> lol, so are there any dates when phase 1+ starts ;)
Jun 20 21:16:36 <Tetraden> ?
Jun 20 21:16:51 <pH5> Elrond: no, but the 0x2 set seems to be the same (currently?), regardless what the channel is set to.
Jun 20 21:18:10 <Elrond> pH5 - Probably, because you haven't setup and started any measurements. ;-)
Jun 20 21:19:42 <pH5> good point :)
Jun 20 21:20:12 <zecke> moko_banner hardcodes x11 :(
Jun 20 21:21:48 <Elrond> pH5 - Let me get the neo back. I have a channels_arm(), and channel_setup, channels_fire() there.
Jun 20 21:22:54 <pH5> example dump of channel 1: http://en.pastebin.ca/579868
Jun 20 21:22:59 <zecke> Sup3rkiddo: did you wrap libmokogsmd yet?
Jun 20 21:23:00 <pH5> Elrond: looking forward to it :)
Jun 20 21:31:40 <hrw> someone with prism card?
Jun 20 21:32:06 <CIA-24> openmoko: 03stefan * r2311 10/trunk/oe/packages/upstart/ (6 files in 2 dirs): 
Jun 20 21:32:06 <CIA-24> openmoko: * Update upstart to 0.3.8. Introduces no problems as we don't use it atm and
Jun 20 21:32:06 <CIA-24> openmoko:  brings us in sync with OE.dev
Jun 20 21:32:46 <Elrond> What is "upstart"?
Jun 20 21:33:10 <zecke> Elrond: alternative init system used by ubuntu
Jun 20 21:34:17 <Elrond> Ahh.
Jun 20 21:34:35 <Elrond> yais. Yet Another Init System. ;o)
Jun 20 21:34:53 <Elrond> Or yair? ... Replacement.
Jun 20 21:35:29 <hrw> upstart has to replace sysvinit and few other components.
Jun 20 21:35:35 <hrw> will it do? time will show
Jun 20 21:35:54 <stefan_schmidt> Elrond: Some nice ideas behind. Event driven
Jun 20 21:37:07 <guaqua> it should also replace cron one day
Jun 20 21:37:19 <guaqua> it's a general task scheduler
Jun 20 21:39:02 <Elrond> stefan_schmidt - Most of these yair have nice ideas.
Jun 20 21:39:10 <Elrond> Even microsofrt SVC has nice ideas.
Jun 20 21:41:57 <stefan_schmidt> Elrond: Not decided if we use it. At some point we need to evaluate them.
Jun 20 21:42:50 <Elrond> Ahh :-)
Jun 20 21:43:08 <Elrond> Well, I'm old-fashioned sysadmin. I like SysV init.
Jun 20 21:43:32 <stefan_schmidt> Elrond: Fine for server but sucks on a desktop and of course on a mobile
Jun 20 21:43:47 <Elrond> hehe :-)
Jun 20 21:44:50 <guaqua> i like bsd style init process
Jun 20 21:45:15 <guaqua> don't need any special scripts to maintain
Jun 20 21:46:46 <Imitation> my n-gage just blew up, so now it has no init at all. i need a new phone!
Jun 20 21:47:04 <guaqua> my 6600 is dying
Jun 20 21:47:13 <guaqua> so i'm actually thinking a P1 now :D
Jun 20 21:54:36 <CIA-24> openmoko: 03stefan * r2312 10/trunk/oe/packages/mpg123/ (mpg123_0.66.bb oe-sync): * Catch up with OE.dev. Just some meta informations added
Jun 20 21:59:21 <Elrond> pH5 - http://en.pastebin.ca/579924
Jun 20 22:00:07 <stefan_schmidt> koen, hrw, zecke: Anyone like to have a look at this one for OE.dev? http://people.openmoko.org/stefan/memedit-07.patch
Jun 20 22:00:44 <stefan_schmidt> Its a /dev/mem edit tool, idea is similar to devman2 but the interface is readline based. Nice to use.
Jun 20 22:03:32 <Elrond> pH5 - Replace unhexify with unhexstr from util.yp
Jun 20 22:04:23 <pH5> Elrond: yes, thanks
Jun 20 22:04:50 <zecke> stefan_schmidt: what is the checksum of it? 
Jun 20 22:05:07 <zecke> stefan_schmidt: other question (unrelated to OE): whyis memedit better than devmem2?
Jun 20 22:05:38 <stefan_schmidt> zecke: (checksum) MD5 or SHA1?
Jun 20 22:05:49 <Elrond> pH5 - send_data is cmd, flags, chan, buf.
Jun 20 22:06:00 <zecke> stefan_schmidt: md5 and sha256
Jun 20 22:06:13 <stefan_schmidt> zecke: (better) It uses readline interface as shell. Nice for fast hacking
Jun 20 22:06:33 <zecke> fluff :)
Jun 20 22:06:44 <zecke> any idea why libmokojournal is not GObject baseD?
Jun 20 22:06:54 <stefan_schmidt> zecke: MD5 3d0f372fb213e09b8d04826f3a0bc2eb  memedit-0.7.tar.gz
Jun 20 22:07:08 <CoreDump|home> hi
Jun 20 22:07:14 <stefan_schmidt> zecke: SHA256 9bb7412a03a76da4219215d2f92addf71305ab3fcc7d9315bb6f9c41fbe851fd  memedit-0.7.tar.gz
Jun 20 22:07:27 <zecke> let me pull OE
Jun 20 22:07:43 <stefan_schmidt> zecke: (libmokojournal) No idea. O-hand introduced it and I never used it until now.
Jun 20 22:08:53 <CIA-24> openmoko: 03stefan * r2313 10/trunk/oe/packages/libmrss/oe-sync: * libmrrs is already in sync with OE.dev
Jun 20 22:08:57 <ninHer> hi all
Jun 20 22:10:44 <stefan_schmidt> hi ninHer 
Jun 20 22:10:56 <ninHer> hello stefan_schmidt
Jun 20 22:15:19 <Elrond> Hmm. Either ph5's hhtest is not 100% correct, or my gps chip is a bit changed. After the reboot, it doesn't react the first time.
Jun 20 22:16:07 <zecke> stefan_schmidt: I will have to pull some more revs before I can commit :)
Jun 20 22:16:25 <stefan_schmidt> zecke: heh, take your time
Jun 20 22:17:06 <zecke> stefan_schmidt: Callbacks for removed/added. I wonder why GObject introduces Closures...
Jun 20 22:17:33 <zecke> the only difference is: One can be easily wrapped, the other not
Jun 20 22:19:02 <stefan_schmidt> zecke: Because they don't liek you wrapping it? ;)
Jun 20 22:23:39 <CIA-24> openmoko: 03stefan * r2314 10/trunk/oe/packages/synaesthesia/oe-sync: * Already in sync with OE.dev
Jun 20 22:27:00 <stefan_schmidt> It seems no easy ones left. Rest is for OpenMoko-OE master mickeyl. :)
Jun 20 22:27:42 <tg> counter
Jun 20 22:27:42 <aloril> http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter 70% for P1: a week, a day 18:46:07 (8.782±8.8 days) (1532;234)
Jun 20 22:37:19 <zecke> ref. coutning is another reason to use GObject
Jun 20 22:37:31 <zecke> ~lart mokojournal for not being a GObject
Jun 20 22:37:31 * apt lowers mokojournal's priority for not being a GObject
Jun 20 22:38:22 <hrw> zecke: make a request for it then?
Jun 20 22:39:59 <CIA-24> openmoko: 03stefan * r2315 10/trunk/ (7 files in 6 dirs): 
Jun 20 22:39:59 <CIA-24> openmoko: * Remove our own fork of the startup panel applet. This is upstream now and
Jun 20 22:39:59 <CIA-24> openmoko:  works well.
Jun 20 22:40:20 <LuitvD> 'night
Jun 20 22:40:50 <high-rez> counter
Jun 20 22:40:50 <aloril> http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter 70% for P1: a week, a day 18:39:33 (8.777±8.8 days) (1533;234)
Jun 20 22:48:17 <zecke> hrw: well, the mail won't be nice
Jun 20 22:52:34 <CIA-24> openmoko: 03stefan * r2316 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/panel-plugins/openmoko-panel-mainmenu/ (configure.ac src/Makefile.am src/openmoko-panel-mainmenu.c): * Revert local changes commited by mistake.
Jun 20 22:53:47 <hrw> zecke: as many others when it came to openmoko soft
Jun 20 22:55:23 <zecke> hrw: I have not yet written a non nice mail :)
Jun 20 22:55:32 <zecke> (never ever at least today)
Jun 20 22:58:24 <zecke> good night :)
Jun 20 22:58:38 <stefan_schmidt> zecke: thanks, even with author name :)
Jun 20 22:58:51 <zecke> sure
Jun 20 22:59:09 <zecke> stefan_schmidt: I wonder where the Schmidt ended up
Jun 20 22:59:34 <stefan_schmidt> zecke: Killed because of a space after stefan?
Jun 20 23:00:24 <zecke> this is what I hope
Jun 20 23:01:05 <zecke> I wonder if the core-team knows that they need to integrate display migration into the core
Jun 20 23:01:41 <hrw> space kills
Jun 20 23:01:47 <hrw> in CIA script
Jun 20 23:03:17 <CIA-24> openmoko: 03stefan * r2317 10/trunk/oe/packages/memedit/oe-sync: 
Jun 20 23:03:17 <CIA-24> openmoko: * memedit is now in OE.dev (Thanks to Holger Freyther) so we are in sync with
Jun 20 23:03:17 <CIA-24> openmoko:  this package.
Jun 20 23:03:44 <stefan_schmidt> ok, that was the last one. Already making to much mistakes. Too late.
Jun 20 23:04:03 <Elrond> hehe :-)
Jun 20 23:04:12 <Elrond> stefan_schmidt - Don't worry. :-)
Jun 20 23:05:25 <zecke> night guys
Jun 20 23:05:57 * zecke needs to poke mickeyl to add a svn:external from the openmoko repo to projects.openmoko.org
Jun 20 23:06:42 <thresh> svn:externals are baaaaaad
Jun 20 23:06:49 <thresh> you cant track them with git. :P
Jun 20 23:07:10 <zecke> not yet
Jun 20 23:07:57 <stefan_schmidt> night zecke 
Jun 20 23:37:48 <cheesy> counter
Jun 20 23:37:48 <aloril> http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter 70% for P1: a week, a day 18:11:04 (8.758±8.8 days) (1534;234)
Jun 20 23:43:57 <filippo> counter
Jun 20 23:43:57 <aloril> http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter 70% for P1: a week, a day 18:07:59 (8.756±8.8 days) (1535;234)
Jun 21 00:12:55 <aloril> (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Wishlist:LiveUSB_distro]]
Jun 21 01:32:05 <AlexZhang> clear
Jun 21 01:56:37 <roh> morning
Jun 21 01:57:04 <mickey|fic> morning
Jun 21 01:57:44 * CoreDump|afk greets the two Taiwanese workers
Jun 21 01:58:55 <mickey|fic> cheers CoreDump|afk 
Jun 21 02:44:15 <noidd> mornin
Jun 21 02:49:13 <summatusmentis> morning? I always feel so... behind in the US
Jun 21 02:53:58 <aloril> can I put "We wish you luck" (as response to http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2007-June/005964.html )
Jun 21 02:54:09 <aloril> (in counter page, not yet updated)
Jun 21 02:56:43 <noidd> looking
Jun 21 02:57:21 <aloril> counter_msg http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter (65% for P1<=2007-07-07) 90% for *news*
Jun 21 02:57:21 <aloril> aloril changed counter prefix message to http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter (65% for P1<=2007-07-07) 90% for *news* 
Jun 21 02:57:41 * aloril will s:I:We: once you somebody else wishes luck too ;-)
Jun 21 02:57:50 <aloril> counter
Jun 21 02:57:50 <aloril> http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter (65% for P1<=2007-07-07) 90% for *news* : 3 days 04:31:03 (3.188±3.2 days) (1536;233)
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Thu Jun 21 02:59:57 2007