**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Sun Jun 24 02:59:58 2007
Jun 24 03:07:48 <summatus|PDA> what is the screen on the neo made out of?
Jun 24 03:09:17 <Marex> summatus|PDA, plush
Jun 24 03:09:52 <summatus|PDA> Marex, :-P so no fingerprints then?
Jun 24 03:10:17 <Marex> and no possibility of breakage ;-]
Jun 24 03:10:34 <summatusmentis> lol
Jun 24 03:52:57 <cdbot2> * * OM Bug 619 has been created by autobuild-reports(AT)openmoko.org
Jun 24 03:52:59 <cdbot2> * * openmoko-tasks-0.1+svnnow-r0_230-do_compile
Jun 24 03:53:00 <cdbot2> * * http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=619
Jun 24 04:30:22 <aloril> (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Talk:Calculator]]
Jun 24 05:22:53 <wehttamb_> counter
Jun 24 05:22:53 <aloril> http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter (65% for P1<=2007-07-07) 70% for *news* in a day 15:18:31 (1.638±1.6 days) (1567;237)
Jun 24 07:11:38 <empty_mind> why am i getting this error during make openmoko-devel-image http://pastebin.com/934958
Jun 24 07:27:20 <rwhitby> empty_mind: you're not alone - I get the same error.
Jun 24 07:27:47 <empty_mind> rwhitby, looks like problem in source code
Jun 24 07:27:49 <rwhitby> looks like the autobuilder did too.
Jun 24 07:28:32 <rwhitby> cdbot2 reported it here 3.5 hours ago
Jun 24 07:28:35 <empty_mind> i think problem is in koto-field-editor-factory.c file
Jun 24 07:29:11 <empty_mind> hmm, so lets wait untill the bug is fixed
Jun 24 08:54:44 <Hopscotch> good morning
Jun 24 08:55:32 <ewon> greets
Jun 24 08:58:51 <xkr47> counter
Jun 24 08:58:51 <aloril> http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter (65% for P1<=2007-07-07) 70% for *news* in a day 13:30:32 (1.563±1.6 days) (1568;237)
Jun 24 09:06:44 <usagi_> Anyone awake?
Jun 24 09:09:28 <xkr47> I'm awake but unimportant
Jun 24 09:14:05 <hads> heh
Jun 24 09:18:32 <usagi_> hi :)
Jun 24 09:20:13 <usagi_> Does anyone know if it's possible to run an ssh server on the neo?
Jun 24 09:20:30 <hads> I don't see why not.
Jun 24 09:22:35 <aloril2> you can ssh into default image already
Jun 24 09:23:26 <hads> There you go then
Jun 24 09:24:12 <hads> I haven't even built an image yet. Tried once but it didn't build and I didn't have 'me time' to play with it.
Jun 24 09:24:14 * aloril2 thinks that has been case before P0 already
Jun 24 09:58:59 <apic> Hi.
Jun 24 09:59:23 <apic> Will openmoko be ported to Nokia E61 any time soon?
Jun 24 09:59:23 <aloril> apic: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.)
Jun 24 09:59:34 <apic> Okay.
Jun 24 10:00:58 <apic> Well...
Jun 24 10:01:06 <apic> FAQ doesn't answer it. :-P
Jun 24 10:07:49 <seemant> er, available to buy any week now?
Jun 24 10:08:49 <hads> OK
Jun 24 10:21:22 <oversee1> ,counter
Jun 24 10:21:50 * oversee1 lounges.
Jun 24 10:22:59 <SpeedEvil> apic: provide full hardware specs, and the answer is probably!
Jun 24 10:23:10 <SpeedEvil> apic: in reality though.
Jun 24 10:23:26 <apic> I don't have theam either.
Jun 24 10:23:28 <apic> -a
Jun 24 10:23:34 <SpeedEvil> At the moment, more important things are being done - like for example, getting the contacts app coded
Jun 24 10:23:54 <apic> Actually if I had them I'd play with Linux on my phone myself.
Jun 24 10:23:57 <apic> Okay...
Jun 24 10:24:22 <apic> When I get out of mental hospital i might help too. :-P
Jun 24 10:24:25 <apic> Maybe...
Jun 24 10:24:54 <SpeedEvil> The chained-down side, or the side where they just trust you to stay there?
Jun 24 10:26:21 <apic> Well, I'm not fixated.
Jun 24 10:26:25 <apic> But trapped anyhow.
Jun 24 10:27:10 <apic> I'm glad they let me use my mobile phone (with which I can IRC and stuff :-)
Jun 24 12:17:21 <Kero> counter
Jun 24 12:17:22 <aloril> http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter (65% for P1<=2007-07-07) 70% for *news* in a day 11:51:17 (1.494±1.5 days) (1569;237)
Jun 24 12:41:11 <thomasg_gpm> hm, somehow I can't believe that there will be an announce tomorrow :)
Jun 24 12:42:58 <Linux_Galore> might get a final release date
Jun 24 12:48:45 <Linux_Galore> wonder if the next version will have an external sd slot
Jun 24 13:27:17 <CIA-24> openmoko: 03stefan * r2338 10/trunk/oe/conf/distro/include/preferred-openmoko-versions.inc: * Let openmoko-tasks build again. Workaround until #619 is fixed upstream.
Jun 24 13:27:40 <koen> contacts/02 looks really nice
Jun 24 13:27:51 <koen> or rather, actually useable on the neo :)
Jun 24 13:53:36 <Savenger> hi all, i want to develop for the neo. i already installed everything described on the openmoko wiki, but when i try to change the root, i get the error: "chroot: cannot run command `/bin/sh': Exec format error"
Jun 24 13:54:35 <Savenger> i'm using ubuntu 7.04 with Kernel 2.6.20-16
Jun 24 13:56:17 <stefan_schmidt> Savenger: ubuntu uses dash instead of bash as shell
Jun 24 13:57:01 <stefan_schmidt> Savenger: COnfigure it to use bash
Jun 24 13:57:45 <stefan_schmidt> Savenger: dpkg-reconfigure dash and then choose bash as link to /bin/sh
Jun 24 13:58:12 <Savenger> i thought, i already did that
Jun 24 13:58:57 <Savenger> my "ls -l /bin/sh" says "-> bash"
Jun 24 13:59:13 <Savenger> so, that might be ok
Jun 24 13:59:43 <Savenger> do you have any other idea?
Jun 24 14:00:15 <stefan_schmidt> Savenger: hmm, that kicks me out of ideas
Jun 24 14:00:22 <Savenger> :-(
Jun 24 14:02:06 <drath> what does "file /bin/bash" say?
Jun 24 14:02:32 <Savenger> /bin/bash: ELF 32-bit LSB executable, Intel 80386, version 1 (SYSV), for GNU/Linux 2.6.0, dynamically linked (uses shared libs), stripped
Jun 24 14:04:19 <drath> is this a 64 or a 32 bit machine?
Jun 24 14:04:48 <Savenger> a 32bit, i think :-) i have a intel core 2 duo.
Jun 24 14:04:59 <summatusmentis> iirc, that's 64bit
Jun 24 14:06:41 <Savenger> ah ok, what can i do now?
Jun 24 14:12:32 <Savenger> do you think that this is a problem? i have NOT installed a 64-Bit Ubuntu
Jun 24 14:42:24 <CIA-24> openmoko: 03stefan * r2339 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/panel-plugins/openmoko-panel-mainmenu/ (17 files in 2 dirs): 
Jun 24 14:42:24 <CIA-24> openmoko: 2007-06-24 Stefan Schmidt <stefan@openmoko.org>
Jun 24 14:42:24 <CIA-24> openmoko:  Copy most of the files from openmoko-mainmenu to the panel applet.
Jun 24 14:42:25 <CIA-24> openmoko:  First step to obsolete openmoko-mainmenu. The finger menu functionality
Jun 24 14:42:27 <CIA-24> openmoko:  will be merged into the applet and started with tapn-and-hold. (See
Jun 24 14:42:29 <CIA-24> openmoko:  #121)
Jun 24 14:45:35 <bmidgley_> roh: is there a software override so neo will charge from a generic cigarette-lighter-to-mini-usb adapter?
Jun 24 15:03:07 <bmidgley_> or can we buy a car adapter charger for neo??
Jun 24 15:09:04 <Kensan> bmidgley_: see http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ#Q:_How_much.3F
Jun 24 15:10:04 <bmidgley_> Kensan: doh, I searched for "auto" and "cigarette" (lighter)
Jun 24 15:10:05 <Kensan> stefan_schmidt: any news on bug #599? I saw it being mentioned on openmoko-devel.
Jun 24 15:12:09 <stefan_schmidt> Kensan: It's some time a chatted with mickey the last time. He must be on the way back from .tw So I had no time to ask him. It's still on my todo.
Jun 24 15:13:17 <Kensan> stefan_schmidt: just checking *hehe*
Jun 24 15:13:37 <stefan_schmidt> Kensan: Jup, poking is fine. :)
Jun 24 15:30:12 <empty_mind> $200 for debug board is high
Jun 24 15:31:03 <CoreDump|afk> I don't think so. The board is not limited to the neo. I've heard reports from people using it to JTAG other stuff
Jun 24 15:34:31 <roh> bmidgley: you can lookt at http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Bootloader there a description of the bootloader commands is listed. you can add an entry to the bootmenu activating fast charge which ignores the usb handshake
Jun 24 15:34:36 <roh> -t
Jun 24 15:35:36 <roh> bmidgley: or add an resistor like described here http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973_Battery_Charger
Jun 24 15:49:08 <CIA-24> openmoko: 03stefan * r2340 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/panel-plugins/openmoko-panel-mainmenu/ (ChangeLog src/buttonactions.c): 
Jun 24 15:49:08 <CIA-24> openmoko: 2007-06-24 Stefan Schmidt <stefan@openmoko.org>
Jun 24 15:49:08 <CIA-24> openmoko:  * src/buttonactions.c:
Jun 24 15:49:08 <CIA-24> openmoko:  (panel_mainmenu_input_dispatch):
Jun 24 15:49:08 <CIA-24> openmoko:  Comment out some noisy debug statements.
Jun 24 15:53:31 <SrRaven> so im outta the loop,did new neo1973 get send out?
Jun 24 16:19:11 <nobody96> moin
Jun 24 16:21:17 <MDK> hey, is openmoko nowadays using any hildon/maemo code?
Jun 24 16:21:23 <roh> no
Jun 24 16:22:09 <MDK> how about the hildon patches to gtk? (tap and hold, touchscreen stuff) 
Jun 24 16:22:20 <roh> dunno. afaik not.
Jun 24 16:22:34 <MDK> so it's being redone from scratch?
Jun 24 16:23:02 <roh> what we do is thought to go upstream. so no senseless and unmergeable patching to things like gtk
Jun 24 16:23:19 <MDK> hmm
Jun 24 16:23:31 <MDK> you realize that 80% of the hildon patches are already upstream?
Jun 24 16:23:39 <MDK> and the rest is following
Jun 24 16:24:01 <nobody96> i think its easier to maintain a special "mouse" driver for the openmoko touchscreen
Jun 24 16:24:03 <roh> you can watch all the source beeing used in svn and take a look at the patches
Jun 24 16:24:20 <roh> nobody96 no. a mouse is something totally different from a touchscreen
Jun 24 16:24:32 <nobody96> there u can emulate an 2d scrollwheel ore something like this
Jun 24 16:24:42 <nobody96> why?
Jun 24 16:25:30 <roh> nobody96 emulating other inputdevices makes zero sense. a touchscreen is an absolute input medium. a mouse is relative for example
Jun 24 16:25:50 <MDK> nobody96: also, how would you emulate tap and hold?
Jun 24 16:26:30 <nobody96> just thought that this would be the right place for an emulated scrollwheel
Jun 24 16:27:24 <nobody96> dont thought that tab and hold would be a problem because i dont get the differences between a touchscreen/pad and a mouse
Jun 24 16:27:41 <MDK> roh: I know I can follow, I was just having this impression a lot of work is duplicated
Jun 24 16:27:46 <roh> MDK see http://svn.openmoko.org/trunk/oe/packages/gtk+/
Jun 24 16:27:55 <MDK> a lot of stuff we do in hildon/maemo could be prolly reused
Jun 24 16:28:32 <MDK> I know how much time we spent getting this stuff right, and how much more time was spent correcting it to integrate upstream
Jun 24 16:29:45 <stefan_schmidt> MDK: This stuff is best discussed with mickey as he is the architecture guy. On the home back from .tw right now IIRC.
Jun 24 16:29:53 <stefan_schmidt> hi zecke 
Jun 24 16:29:57 <zecke> hi
Jun 24 16:30:27 <stefan_schmidt> MDK: There were already some discussion between the maemo gang and Sean/mickey IIRC
Jun 24 16:30:30 <MDK> stefan_schmidt: we met with mickey on fosdem and had a discussion about sharing
Jun 24 16:30:37 <MDK> stefan_schmidt: but it kinda ended there
Jun 24 16:30:45 <roh> MDK as far as i understood it we layer our widgets on gtk, not modify it massively
Jun 24 16:31:13 <roh> MDK but i have not looked at our gtk patches or the maemo ones in detail
Jun 24 16:31:18 <MDK> roh: well, we do similiar thing
Jun 24 16:31:19 <stefan_schmidt> MDK: So we need to renew it. :)
Jun 24 16:31:58 <stefan_schmidt> zecke: busy studying?
Jun 24 16:32:42 <aloril> (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Neo1973_Battery_Charger]]
Jun 24 16:33:05 <stefan_schmidt> MDK: The discussion I mean
Jun 24 16:33:15 <MDK> stefan_schmidt: yeah, I know, hence asking
Jun 24 16:33:26 <MDK> are you using 2.6 still?
Jun 24 16:33:57 <stefan_schmidt> MDK: Yes, but with newer cairo going to a more recent version should be possible in some time.
Jun 24 16:34:25 <MDK> stefan_schmidt: yes, we're using 2.10 now, with similiar perf
Jun 24 16:34:42 <stefan_schmidt> MDK: Once mickey showed up again, after yet leg I guess, I'll point him to you.
Jun 24 16:34:46 <MDK> stefan_schmidt: we optimized the cairo-pango to be as fast as xft
Jun 24 16:35:00 <MDK> since we're using cairo only to draw text
Jun 24 16:35:03 <stefan_schmidt> MDK: That sounds promising.
Jun 24 16:35:16 <stefan_schmidt> MDK: ross already mentoined something like this to me.
Jun 24 16:35:31 <MDK> what kind of theme engine openmoko uses?
Jun 24 16:35:31 <stefan_schmidt> mentioned
Jun 24 16:35:49 <roh>  .oO(a too slow one)
Jun 24 16:35:57 <stefan_schmidt> MDK: gtk-engine?
Jun 24 16:36:03 <MDK> stefan_schmidt: yes, gtk-engine
Jun 24 16:36:06 <stefan_schmidt> MDK: not sapwood. :)
Jun 24 16:36:17 <MDK> pixbuf I guess?
Jun 24 16:36:25 <stefan_schmidt> MDK: yes
Jun 24 16:36:44 <borg_> counter
Jun 24 16:36:45 <aloril> http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter (65% for P1<=2007-07-07) 70% for *news* in a day 09:41:35 (1.404±1.4 days) (1570;238)
Jun 24 16:36:50 <MDK> well, than sapwood really makes sense
Jun 24 16:37:04 <stefan_schmidt> MDK: Not with our current theme.
Jun 24 16:37:14 <MDK> stefan_schmidt: alpha?
Jun 24 16:37:21 <stefan_schmidt> MDK: Yes
Jun 24 16:37:31 <stefan_schmidt> MDK: At least we hope to have it in the end
Jun 24 16:37:44 <stefan_schmidt> MDK: sapwood is only 1 bit alpha, right?
Jun 24 16:37:49 <roh> MDK atm there is nearly no optimization done. yes.. theres a lot of potential
Jun 24 16:38:09 <MDK> stefan_schmidt: yes, only 1bit alpha
Jun 24 16:38:22 <MDK> but pixbuf engine is a huge memory hog
Jun 24 16:38:52 <stefan_schmidt> MDK: indeed
Jun 24 16:39:15 <stefan_schmidt> MDK: But we want both: Fast/lean and eye-candy :)
Jun 24 16:39:29 <stefan_schmidt> MDK: GTK makes our life not easy for this :)
Jun 24 16:39:30 <MDK> stefan_schmidt: but ie. in sardine we have transparency for home applets using client-side compositing
Jun 24 16:39:48 <stefan_schmidt> MDK: sardine?
Jun 24 16:40:12 <MDK> stefan_schmidt: our unstable distribution (latest and greatest of everything, not shipped yet)
Jun 24 16:40:19 <stefan_schmidt> MDK: ah
Jun 24 16:40:38 * stefan_schmidt ponders if N800 is worth to get.
Jun 24 16:40:48 <stefan_schmidt> I was not that hyped by the N770
Jun 24 16:41:18 <MDK> well, depends why you were not hyped... 
Jun 24 16:41:23 <roh> stefan_schmidt i had one on my hands in taiwan.. nice to see and play with but i wouldn't buy it.
Jun 24 16:41:57 <MDK> if you didn't like it because it was too slow, then n800 might make sense to you
Jun 24 16:42:21 <MDK> but if you didn't like the concept, then n800 will disappoint you too
Jun 24 16:42:30 <stefan_schmidt> MDK: heh, faster is always good.
Jun 24 16:42:39 <MDK> roh: too expensive?
Jun 24 16:43:06 <roh> MDK no real usecase for me. and i also do not like binary components
Jun 24 16:43:36 <stefan_schmidt> MDK: But I indeed had a problem with the concept. Having another device in my pocket for web browsing...
Jun 24 16:43:45 <MDK> stefan_schmidt: but anyways, there are also the intel guys now, they're going to use hildon and have some full-time engineers to work/contribute to it
Jun 24 16:43:49 <roh> MDK i also have a simpad flying around which i do not use
Jun 24 16:43:57 <MDK> stefan_schmidt: so I think it makes sense to align somehow on this thing
Jun 24 16:44:04 <stefan_schmidt> MDK: The device itself is pretty neat. But same as roh, no real use case for me.
Jun 24 16:45:16 <MDK> stefan_schmidt, roh: I must admit, I'd prefer it to be a phone/more pim-alike too
Jun 24 16:45:21 <stefan_schmidt> MDK: What's the goal for hildon in the end? Pushing all back to gtk and just have a widget set?
Jun 24 16:45:50 <MDK> stefan_schmidt: hildon is a lot of components
Jun 24 16:46:12 <MDK> stefan_schmidt: gtk, hildon desktop, hildon widgets and hildon file management being the main ones
Jun 24 16:46:21 <roh> MDK thats not it.. but what to use a device like that for? as a big-ui remote-controll for digital television at the sofa.. yeah.. but for browsing? no.
Jun 24 16:46:25 <stefan_schmidt> MDK: I'm not that deep in this. Is there somewhere a overview chart or something similar?
Jun 24 16:47:06 <roh> MDK i used the simpad as wlan-measuring device once.. with a directional  panel antenna taped to the back... what else....
Jun 24 16:48:23 <MDK> stefan_schmidt: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-mobile/2007-May/000098.html 
Jun 24 16:48:33 * stefan_schmidt reads
Jun 24 16:50:01 <dottedmag> counter
Jun 24 16:50:01 <aloril> http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter (65% for P1<=2007-07-07) 70% for *news* in a day 09:34:57 (1.399±1.4 days) (1571;238)
Jun 24 16:50:16 <dottedmag> lol
Jun 24 16:50:30 <dottedmag> counter?
Jun 24 16:50:31 <aloril> "/msg aloril counter?" for actual long message, giving short version here: http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter (65% for P1<=2007-07-07) 70% for *news* in a day 09:34:42 (1.399±1.4 days) (1572;238)
Jun 24 16:52:37 <stefan_schmidt> MDK: Nice overview. But definitely something for mickey as I came to OpenMoko long time after all the architecture discussions were done. Just playing code monkey here right know. :)
Jun 24 16:53:06 <stefan_schmidt> MDK: I'll point him to you once I can catch him. Hanging in this channel all the time?
Jun 24 16:53:15 <MDK> stefan_schmidt: yep
Jun 24 16:53:25 <stefan_schmidt> MDK: good
Jun 24 16:53:35 <Gybrush> stefan_schmidt, on which parts are you working?
Jun 24 16:55:13 <stefan_schmidt> Gybrush: Panel applet atm. Remove some duplicated code, clean up, push upstream. But also a bit OE stuff. (If it is broken) Why?
Jun 24 16:55:42 <stefan_schmidt> MDK: Is there #hildon somewhere?
Jun 24 16:57:39 <MDK> no, not really. Only #maemo
Jun 24 16:57:50 <MDK> stefan_schmidt: but we plan to make hildon a more upstream project
Jun 24 16:57:59 <MDK> stefan_schmidt: we're moving it to gnome 
Jun 24 16:58:06 <stefan_schmidt> MDK: ok
Jun 24 16:58:41 <MDK> the idea is to separate it from #maemo, and manage in a more sane way
Jun 24 16:58:48 <MDK> with normal releases and so forth
Jun 24 16:59:07 <stefan_schmidt> MDK: And put all together for a release again...
Jun 24 16:59:55 <koen> MDK: I told all that to mickeyl last week :)
Jun 24 16:59:59 <MDK> normal releases = upstream releases synced with gnome
Jun 24 17:00:42 <koen> complete with bogus version numbers like 2.20.5?
Jun 24 17:01:39 <stefan_schmidt> heh, seems koen has a hildon/maemo keyword trigger ;)
Jun 24 17:02:10 <koen> I want maemo-mapper working with a non-forked gtk :)
Jun 24 17:02:53 <MDK> koen: yes, we suck in some areas, but we're learning
Jun 24 17:03:01 <MDK> slowly, but learning ;)
Jun 24 17:03:17 <koen> yeah
Jun 24 17:03:44 <koen> I discussed all that at ELC with quim and carlos
Jun 24 17:04:41 <koen> that reminds me, I should test k-s' latest work on a neo
Jun 24 17:04:51 * stefan_schmidt has a break. It's sunday after all. :)
Jun 24 17:05:23 <koen> my guinnea pigs fell asleep so I can focus on other things now :)
Jun 24 17:06:29 <koen> MDK: when will hildon be put in gnome svn?
Jun 24 17:06:49 <MDK> btw, are you guys coming to guadec? That would be a good opportunity to discuss things
Jun 24 17:07:09 <MDK> koen: I have no clue, but soon I hope
Jun 24 17:07:18 <koen> yes, we'll be at guadec
Jun 24 18:18:47 <stefan_schmidt> MDK: Yes, mickey, alphaone and me will be there also.
Jun 24 18:20:31 <nox-Hand> counter
Jun 24 18:20:31 <aloril> http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter (65% for P1<=2007-07-07) 70% for *news* in a day 08:49:42 (1.368±1.4 days) (1573;238)
Jun 24 18:23:53 <sixfeet> search phone shop ;)
Jun 24 18:32:22 <aloril> (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[OpenMoko_under_QEMU]]
Jun 24 18:40:47 <Elrond> Just for fun (I have not tried to reproduce it, so I don't call it a bug): http://www.flickr.com/photos/elrond/613636578/
Jun 24 18:44:33 <guaqua> i wonder what kind of changes would it require to get all apps to support rotating the screen?
Jun 24 18:45:48 <cjb> It should just work; when it doesn't, the app has sizes hardcoded.
Jun 24 18:46:12 <guaqua> oooh
Jun 24 18:48:55 <Elrond> cjb - This one is an app bug http://www.flickr.com/photos/elrond/509749982/
Jun 24 18:54:48 <cjb> Elrond: Yeah, seen that one.
Jun 24 19:28:14 <Marex> hi, hmm ... any idea about iwmmxt support in qemu/omoko?
Jun 24 19:29:02 <roh> is not there
Jun 24 19:29:16 <roh> its a samsung arm9 cpu, no fpu
Jun 24 19:30:54 <roh> Marex i hope i understood your question right
Jun 24 19:31:18 <Marex> ah ... I thought its pxa 
Jun 24 19:31:25 <Marex> oh .. ok then :] thanx
Jun 24 19:37:32 <aloril2> has been  pretty quiet today, hopefully that is calm before storm
Jun 24 19:38:13 <summatusmentis> which storm?
Jun 24 19:38:18 <summatusmentis> release storm?
Jun 24 19:38:57 <aloril2> discussion storm following release ;-)
Jun 24 19:39:07 <summatusmentis> lol
Jun 24 19:39:18 * summatusmentis is waiting for GTA02
Jun 24 19:40:19 <aloril2> 2-9 month wait
Jun 24 19:40:59 <summatusmentis> yeah, no kidding
Jun 24 19:41:07 <summatusmentis> Hopefully 2 months
Jun 24 19:41:22 <summatusmentis> if not, I'll go GTA01 in 2 months, or w/e
Jun 24 19:41:29 <summatusmentis> need a new phone for college
Jun 24 19:43:17 <MeTa[AwAy]> Is there any idea, when the latest revision of hardware releases before the mass market, that as i see is adjourned
Jun 24 19:43:19 <MeTa[AwAy]> ?
Jun 24 19:43:42 <MeTa[AwAy]> or that is the above discussed gta02?
Jun 24 19:44:43 <guaqua> MeTa[AwAy]: could you rephrase that?
Jun 24 19:45:10 <MeTa[AwAy]> erhm:) So i waiting hard for the last revision of neo1973 
Jun 24 19:45:26 <MeTa[AwAy]> and i hope i didn't needed to wait a half year.
Jun 24 19:45:43 <summatusmentis> there should ba GTA01 being available for sale soon
Jun 24 19:45:52 <roh> the last revision of gta01 is what the first one you can buy is
Jun 24 19:45:58 <guaqua> gta01 which will be released during this summer is a developer phone
Jun 24 19:46:17 <roh> gta02 will be _sold_ also only when all bugs are out
Jun 24 19:46:17 <guaqua> you can get one, but it is not a ready phone
Jun 24 19:46:46 <roh> we cannot take money for hardware we would need to exchange out of gurantee reasons. just makes no sense at all
Jun 24 19:47:29 <Elrond> roh - Will GTA01 be available after GTA02 selling starts?
Jun 24 19:47:40 <MeTa[AwAy]> If the sw is not the latest and fullest working thing is not problem, but i want the "stable" version of the phone
Jun 24 19:48:00 <MeTa[AwAy]> when that is become possible?
Jun 24 19:48:03 <Elrond> MeTa[AwAy] - I think, you should read up on the wiki a bit.
Jun 24 19:48:13 <MeTa[AwAy]> ok
Jun 24 19:48:36 <roh> Elrond dunno. i see no real reason to build new gta01 ones when gta02 is in MP (beeing sold) since they share the same case and features
Jun 24 19:48:41 <aloril2> MeTa[AwAy]: last hardware revision before mass market: supposedly GTA02 , but I guess its possible bugs are discovered after developer GTA02 release
Jun 24 19:50:09 <Elrond> roh - The GTA01 might be cheaper. :-)
Jun 24 19:50:37 <MacNorth> maybe by parts, but maybe not by process
Jun 24 19:51:03 <roh> Elrond only when running at the same volumes, and i do not believe that
Jun 24 19:52:02 <Elrond> roh - Ahh.
Jun 24 19:52:22 <Elrond> So is there any news on GTA02 pricing?
Jun 24 19:52:27 <roh> nope
Jun 24 19:59:02 <dcordes> where can I download openmoko?
Jun 24 20:00:18 <Elrond> dcordes - What exactly do you want to download?
Jun 24 20:00:34 <dcordes> Elrond, don't know what you have there. Images?
Jun 24 20:00:41 <dcordes> rootfs
Jun 24 20:00:49 <dcordes> the system??
Jun 24 20:00:55 <Elrond> http://buildhost.openmoko.org/tmp/deploy/images/
Jun 24 20:01:07 <dcordes> Elrond, thanks
Jun 24 20:01:22 <Elrond> Of course the images wont make much sense without qemu-neo1973 ;)
Jun 24 20:01:49 <Elrond> dcordes - I suggest you check wiki.openmoko.org
Jun 24 20:02:01 <dcordes> Elrond, are there images for h6300?
Jun 24 20:02:51 <aloril2> roh: of course you won't sell buggy versions, but there is always small possibility that bugs are discovered later
Jun 24 20:04:22 <roh> aloril2 thats what the betatests are for. exchanging hardware is expensive
Jun 24 20:04:39 <Elrond> dcordes - Not officialy.
Jun 24 20:04:51 <Elrond> roh - But in the worst case fic would do that?
Jun 24 20:05:25 <dcordes> Elrond, that's a pitty. I would like to try it on a friend's device
Jun 24 20:05:47 <roh> Elrond we are forced to. take a look at what law in a lot of countrys enfoces whan it comes to gurantee
Jun 24 20:05:54 <dcordes> I read in the news that neo will be rleases in september. motd says perhaps any week. Who can I trust :-)? 
Jun 24 20:06:12 <aloril2> dcordes: you could always build one yourself
Jun 24 20:06:15 <summatusmentis> dcordes: final customer release was supposed to be in sept.
Jun 24 20:06:29 <summatusmentis> dev release, non customer should be soon
Jun 24 20:06:31 <roh> e.g. here in germany the manuf has to gurantee 2 years of manufacturing errors
Jun 24 20:06:52 <summatusmentis> final customer release apparently won't happen in sept. but in 6 months instead
Jun 24 20:07:22 <dcordes> summatusmentis,  http://www.vnu.co.uk/vnunet/news/2192036/first-open-source-mobile-phone
Jun 24 20:07:23 <Elrond> roh - I don't know exactly, how that applies, if germans order there stuff straight from .tw. ;-)
Jun 24 20:07:41 <dcordes> Elrond, no, it doesn't in that case
Jun 24 20:07:50 <dcordes> depending on where you bought
Jun 24 20:07:53 <drath> roh: not the manufacturer but the dealer
Jun 24 20:08:02 <roh> good question. depends on the country propably
Jun 24 20:08:09 <roh> drath in case of import, yes
Jun 24 20:08:18 <aloril2> roh: ah, yeah of course: what is better GTA02 beta  test that giving them free like you did with GTA01Bv[34]
Jun 24 20:08:28 <Elrond> So I should buy from a german dealer. ;o)
Jun 24 20:08:36 <dcordes> iirc the two years of guarantee thing applies to many euorpean countries
Jun 24 20:09:00 <Elrond> dcordes - Yes.
Jun 24 20:09:04 <dcordes> Elrond, maybe
Jun 24 20:09:28 <dcordes> summatusmentis, I don't know where they got that information
Jun 24 20:09:55 <summatusmentis> dcordes: it's still loading, my computers building a collie angstrom image :-P
Jun 24 20:10:01 <dcordes> but will the dev version you just mentioned contain that same hardware?
Jun 24 20:10:14 <dcordes> :)
Jun 24 20:10:20 <nox-Hand> Bleh
Jun 24 20:10:35 <summatusmentis> dcordes: that's the GTA02, not available yet
Jun 24 20:10:36 <nox-Hand> Just been watching a bit of stuff about how columbine and other violent things happened
Jun 24 20:10:42 <nox-Hand> People blame guns for the violence
Jun 24 20:10:48 <nox-Hand> Blaming guns for violence is like blaming spoons for fat people.
Jun 24 20:11:12 <summatusmentis> dcordes: currently available is the GTA01, no wifi, smaller battery, etc. which is what will be available soon
Jun 24 20:11:21 <Elrond> "columbine"?
Jun 24 20:11:22 <drath> while there are certainly valid reasons for having spoons, i doubt average people have valid reasons for guns...
Jun 24 20:11:23 <dcordes> as soon as they not blame OE it's fine
Jun 24 20:11:25 <dcordes> lol
Jun 24 20:11:26 <drath> comubine massacre
Jun 24 20:11:33 <xipietotec> ....gah....still not available.
Jun 24 20:11:46 <drath> the shooting at a high school
Jun 24 20:11:51 <drath> in 98? 97?
Jun 24 20:11:53 <nox-Hand> 1999
Jun 24 20:11:55 <drath> ah, ok
Jun 24 20:11:59 <summatusmentis> Elrond: a school shooting in the US, in Columbine Ohio(I think)
Jun 24 20:12:02 <guaqua> nox-Hand: restricting the access to guns does have an effect
Jun 24 20:12:20 <xipietotec> I'm tired of hearing about the iPhone. I want my openmoko :(
Jun 24 20:12:32 <dcordes> summatusmentis, help I'm getting a bit confused. So what will be available soon?
Jun 24 20:12:36 <summatusmentis> xipietotec: I agree completely
Jun 24 20:12:48 <summatusmentis> dcordes: available soon will be GTA01(dev phone)
Jun 24 20:13:01 <summatusmentis> the mass market version(GTA01) is the one mentioned in that article
Jun 24 20:13:07 * xl0 .oO(Or not so soon...)
Jun 24 20:13:10 <nox-Hand> guaqua: Slightly - but banning guns also means it will fuel the black market
Jun 24 20:13:12 <summatusmentis> sorry, mass market version(GTA02)
Jun 24 20:13:13 <dcordes> which will be able in 20 years or so?
Jun 24 20:13:14 <dcordes> :P
Jun 24 20:13:26 <summatusmentis> no, according to topic, 6 months
Jun 24 20:13:34 <nox-Hand> Anyway, I gotta go..... bed :D
Jun 24 20:13:37 <nox-Hand> Night yall
Jun 24 20:13:43 <Elrond> nox-Hand - Night.
Jun 24 20:13:54 <summatusmentis> goodnight nox-Hand 
Jun 24 20:13:55 <nox-Hand> Night Elrond 
Jun 24 20:13:57 <aloril2> summatusmentis: I would not be surprised if dev GTA02 release took 6 months and mass market took year
Jun 24 20:13:57 <nox-Hand> ight summatusmentis 
Jun 24 20:14:12 <xipietotec> the dev phone was supposed to be available months ago >:(
Jun 24 20:14:36 <summatusmentis> aloril2: NO!!! DON'T SAY THAT!!!
Jun 24 20:14:53 * summatusmentis is sad
Jun 24 20:15:01 <xipietotec> I want a phone to haxx0r. :(
Jun 24 20:15:19 <summatusmentis> all the hardware will be outdated by that point aloril2 :'-(
Jun 24 20:15:20 <mmp> xipietotec: basically yes, but it's still better to have phone few months later than to have a phone with hw manufacture errors
Jun 24 20:15:37 <xipietotec> mmp, true
Jun 24 20:15:54 <guaqua> i'm thinking it depends mostly on the pace they get the software developed
Jun 24 20:16:05 <xipietotec> however, it's also good to have a phone at all, since there's still no carrier and they've still not shipped anything...future of phone in doubt
Jun 24 20:16:06 <guaqua> or not as much they, moreso us
Jun 24 20:16:38 <guaqua> xipietotec: the phone is not limited to one carrier
Jun 24 20:16:45 <guaqua> it's a simple gsm device
Jun 24 20:16:45 <Elrond> "carrier"?
Jun 24 20:16:48 <roh> xipietotec its not beeing sold via carriers
Jun 24 20:17:02 <xipietotec> guaqua, the commerical version would more or less need carrier support, etc.
Jun 24 20:17:04 <guaqua> Elrond: telco, operator
Jun 24 20:17:14 <xipietotec> subsidy price.
Jun 24 20:17:21 <Elrond> It should just work with any gsm network.
Jun 24 20:17:26 <roh> xipietotec its beeing sold directly. carriers can resell them if they want. but we will not cripple the phone just to please them
Jun 24 20:18:11 <guaqua> nokia is selling more and more directly to customers even in the us
Jun 24 20:18:14 <xipietotec> roh, ....I dunno, Nokia has tried for 20 years to get a direct relationship with the customers.
Jun 24 20:18:34 <guaqua> xipietotec: your view on the whole issue is very limited
Jun 24 20:18:46 <guaqua> you can only see the american market, i'm guessing
Jun 24 20:18:46 <Elrond> hehe... I already considered going in a local telco shop and playing games with them "Hi. I lended this phone. Can I buy it together with a contract here?" ;o)
Jun 24 20:19:10 <zecke> hi
Jun 24 20:19:16 <guaqua> hey, z
Jun 24 20:19:17 <roh> xipietotec subsidaries can also be done via the reselling dealer, regardless of the model or manuf. atleast thats how it works in a lot of countrys and with a lot of carriers. i dunno about the us though
Jun 24 20:19:35 <xipietotec> roh, I hate the U.S. telco market.
Jun 24 20:19:54 <summatusmentis> me too
Jun 24 20:19:59 <xipietotec> there's no "net neutrality" of our phone systems... it's effing annoying
Jun 24 20:20:07 <xipietotec> and one of the reasons we're ages behind europe.
Jun 24 20:20:20 <xipietotec> in broadband access, cellphone access, etc.
Jun 24 20:20:34 <zecke> stefan_schmidt: so mickey is on the way back home?
Jun 24 20:20:38 * xipietotec should just move to japan....phat pipes abound.
Jun 24 20:20:50 <summatusmentis> xipietotec: take me w/ you! :-)
Jun 24 20:20:59 <Elrond> hehe.
Jun 24 20:21:44 <mjr> ahh, japan, home of the completely proprietary cellular systems
Jun 24 20:22:02 <summatusmentis> mjr: it's pretty close in the US too
Jun 24 20:22:14 <aloril2> counter
Jun 24 20:22:14 <aloril> http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter (65% for P1<=2007-07-07) 70% for *news* in a day 07:48:50 (1.326±1.3 days) (1574;238)
Jun 24 20:22:18 <guaqua> summatusmentis: err?
Jun 24 20:22:30 <xipietotec> mjr, all I need really is a cheap cheap data plan and SIP to run on the open-moko
Jun 24 20:22:32 <summatusmentis> guaqua: ?
Jun 24 20:22:52 <guaqua> have you actually seen the way the japanese build the services and the deals?
Jun 24 20:22:53 <mjr> xipietotec, and openmoko would run on which mobile phone that works in Japan?
Jun 24 20:23:02 <summatusmentis> guaqua: no
Jun 24 20:23:19 <summatusmentis> but I know the proprietary-ness of the US stuff gets in the way
Jun 24 20:23:21 <guaqua> it's on a different planet there
Jun 24 20:23:29 <summatusmentis> lol
Jun 24 20:23:36 <xipietotec> mjr, nono, I'm still wanting to buy the Neo thingy, I just want the pipes and petite japanese women =P
Jun 24 20:23:51 <guaqua> there should be standards how to provide services
Jun 24 20:23:54 <MacNorth> yeah, jp mobile providers are pretty hardcore closed
Jun 24 20:23:56 <summatusmentis> xipietotec: take me w/ you!
Jun 24 20:24:17 <guaqua> there was the wap fiasco...
Jun 24 20:24:47 <guaqua> i'm guessing we'll get actual services when the phones have good browsers, not before
Jun 24 20:24:48 <mjr> ah yes, the stillborn wap
Jun 24 20:24:50 <aloril2> see above page for all kind of speculation
Jun 24 20:25:22 <xipietotec> guaqua, ...well phones do have a good browser, it's just not open source. Opera
Jun 24 20:25:32 <some1_> sucks
Jun 24 20:25:41 <some1_> :) got to be open
Jun 24 20:25:47 <summatusmentis> minimo
Jun 24 20:25:48 <guaqua> opera works, yes
Jun 24 20:25:52 <mjr> ...when phones have good browsers factory-installed
Jun 24 20:26:52 <guaqua> well, i'm off to sleep aswell. nighty night
Jun 24 20:27:00 <summatusmentis> goodnight guaqua 
Jun 24 20:27:29 <rxr> xipietotec: operat a good broswer, lol
Jun 24 20:27:45 <rxr> xipietotec: expection phones ahve a good browser called khtml err. webkit
Jun 24 20:28:00 <xipietotec> rxr, the next version of opera is going to be the first browser to fully support CSS.
Jun 24 20:28:27 <summatusmentis> why don't they open source opera already?
Jun 24 20:28:38 <summatusmentis> they're giving it away anyway, it's not like they're making money from it
Jun 24 20:28:44 <xipietotec> summatusmentis, actually because they make a ton of money selling it on phones to oems =P
Jun 24 20:28:45 <woglinde> opera has some finacial problems
Jun 24 20:28:54 <woglinde> the stocks lost 60%
Jun 24 20:29:05 <summatusmentis> xipietotec: I guess that makes sense, they could do the same if it were opensource
Jun 24 20:36:42 <aloril> (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Buying_Interest_List]]
Jun 24 20:38:43 <summatusmentis> xipietotec: do you know of any US providers that will sell just a dataplan?
Jun 24 20:39:06 <Elrond> BTW: What's up with buildhost? Nothing new since 20th?
Jun 24 20:39:29 <xipietotec> summatusmentis, well you can purchase just data-plans for the cellphone laptop card thingies
Jun 24 20:39:57 <summatusmentis> xipietotec: right... but will they give you a sim card, and just a data-plan?
Jun 24 20:40:04 <DukeOfURL> summatusmentis: I was looking at the T-Mobile brochure--it looks like USD1.00/day for data on pay-as-you-go plan
Jun 24 20:40:17 <DukeOfURL> unlimited
Jun 24 20:40:28 <summatusmentis> DukeOfURL: really? that's cool
Jun 24 20:40:34 <MacNorth> unlimited as your wallet :-)
Jun 24 20:40:43 <summatusmentis> that's actually not bad at all($31/month)
Jun 24 20:41:37 <DukeOfURL> I haven't spoken w/ T-Mobile about it.  Cingular has a USD1.00/day charge whenever you use the phone.
Jun 24 20:41:53 <summatusmentis> DukeOfURL: any idea on txting for T-mobile?
Jun 24 20:41:58 <summatusmentis> on pay as you go?
Jun 24 20:42:06 <DukeOfURL> no idea
Jun 24 20:42:09 <MacNorth> 10c to send, 5c to receive
Jun 24 20:42:27 <DukeOfURL> MacNorth: still in Ft Collins?
Jun 24 20:42:40 <MacNorth> yep -- going to new york for a week, tho
Jun 24 20:42:40 <summatusmentis> MacNorth: oh... that'd be costly
Jun 24 20:42:41 <xipietotec> That's bloody expensive really. =(
Jun 24 20:43:01 <DukeOfURL> MacNorth: I'll be in Key West next week for some scuba
Jun 24 20:43:10 <MacNorth> niiiiiice :-D
Jun 24 20:44:56 <DukeOfURL> summatusmentis: With T-Mobile, I have to determine whether "unlimited data" is just within their walled garden.
Jun 24 20:45:29 <MacNorth> from my reading t-mo prepaid is only walled garden (abc.com, cnn.com, and some others)
Jun 24 20:46:05 <CoreDump> IOW: worthless
Jun 24 20:46:21 <DukeOfURL> yup, worthless
Jun 24 20:46:40 <MacNorth> but walled only in gprs ;-)
Jun 24 20:47:00 <stefan_schmidt> zecke: AFAIK. At least I heard nothing that he will stay longer.
Jun 24 20:47:58 <stefan_schmidt> zecke: No more math fun today? You know it must go well tuesday as I already booked a room for you. ;)
Jun 24 20:48:10 <zecke> lol
Jun 24 20:48:20 <zecke> aeh, hmm
Jun 24 20:49:16 <zecke> stefan_schmidt: psst, ein drei-koepfiger affe direkt hinter dir
Jun 24 20:50:05 <zecke> stefan_schmidt: in this appartment I have only internet near the window. This helps to focus on studying
Jun 24 20:51:23 <stefan_schmidt> zecke: wo?
Jun 24 20:51:53 <stefan_schmidt> zecke: You can survive in a room without internet all the day? ;)
Jun 24 20:52:24 <zecke> stefan_schmidt: Yes, utilizing math it is doable
Jun 24 20:52:32 <stefan_schmidt> zecke: But I see. Normally I try to study with pc's turned off. Not always successful though.
Jun 24 20:54:48 <zecke> koen: You can help OpenMoko as well, I consider creating php bindings ;)
Jun 24 20:55:26 <koen> :D
Jun 24 20:57:34 <ynezz> s/php/lua/
Jun 24 20:58:25 <zecke> ynezz: feel free to send a patch
Jun 24 20:58:37 <ynezz> i will
Jun 24 20:58:48 <zecke> awesome
Jun 24 20:58:51 <ynezz> once i get neo...
Jun 24 20:58:53 <ynezz> :p
Jun 24 20:59:19 <zecke> why do you need a neo to create bindings?
Jun 24 20:59:31 <CoreDump> yeah, well, what about some news??
Jun 24 21:00:08 <ynezz> zecke: why would I waste my time for not existing device? ;D
Jun 24 21:00:22 <zecke> CoreDump: well, I'm not working at OpenMoko/FIC. So I can tell you my pants and shoes are still not dry...
Jun 24 21:00:51 <CoreDump> that remark was pointed in no general direction ;)
Jun 24 21:01:15 <roh> zecke i work there and mine are really not dry yet. but thats nothing fic can fix ;)
Jun 24 21:01:18 <CoreDump> !pester Doctor Mickey
Jun 24 21:01:20 <cdbot2> Doctor Mickey: Are we there yet? .. Are we there yet? .. Are we there yet?
Jun 24 21:01:36 * zecke got into yesterday's rain...
Jun 24 21:05:04 <zecke> ynezz: well, just use a HTC phone
Jun 24 21:07:22 <aloril> (script) planet: Holger "zecke" Freyther: Creating Python Examples http://zecke.blogspot.com/2007/06/creating-python-examples.html
Jun 24 21:07:56 <ynezz> zecke: broken lcd...
Jun 24 21:08:16 <zecke> ynezz: well, you have X, it is network transparent
Jun 24 21:09:56 <ynezz> true, but not for my loox 720
Jun 24 21:10:16 <zecke> just another excuse?
Jun 24 21:10:21 <ynezz> no
Jun 24 21:31:02 <zecke> night
Jun 24 21:40:40 <CIA-24> openmoko: 03stefan * r2341 10/trunk/oe/conf/distro/include/preferred-openmoko-versions.inc: * Closes #619. Rob Bradford fixed the problem upstream.
Jun 24 21:51:46 <Elrond> !ombug 619
Jun 24 21:51:47 <cdbot2> * * Bug 619, Status: RESOLVED (FIXED), Created: Unknown
Jun 24 21:51:47 <cdbot2> * * autobuild-reports(AT)openmoko.org: openmoko-tasks-0.1+svnnow-r0_230-do_compile
Jun 24 21:51:48 <cdbot2> * * http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=619
Jun 24 21:59:25 <Kero> counter
Jun 24 21:59:25 <aloril> http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter (65% for P1<=2007-07-07) 70% for *news* in a day 07:00:15 (1.292±1.3 days) (1575;238)
Jun 24 22:13:24 <LuitvD> I hope sean keeps his promise
Jun 24 22:13:45 <MacNorth> was it actually a promise?
Jun 24 22:13:52 <CM> Heh, I've been away since wednesday and it seems like I haven't missed a thing :-(
Jun 24 22:16:36 <SpeedEvil> In less than a week, we will update you about what's going on at FIC/ 
Jun 24 22:16:36 <SpeedEvil> OpenMoko, the status of GTA01/02, and our plans for selling these neos.
Jun 24 22:16:49 <SpeedEvil> Date: Wed Jun 20 18:18:28 2007
Jun 24 22:18:04 <SpeedEvil> So, could be anything from 'we've binned the initial run, as they were all broken, and won't be selling anything for months' to 'on sale now!'
Jun 24 22:18:26 <SpeedEvil> I hope something much more like the latter.
Jun 24 22:19:16 <CoreDump> I personally hope they ditch P1 and start shipping P1.5 ASAP
Jun 24 22:19:29 <SpeedEvil> Unless there was a wierd show-stopper bug found in the hardware that got past most QC. For example, the touchscreens on the new batch all die after about a week of active use.
Jun 24 22:19:42 <SpeedEvil> I'm sure that's the plan.
Jun 24 22:20:09 <SpeedEvil> But there need to be at least several spins of the board for 1.5 it looks like.
Jun 24 22:21:55 <LuitvD> wow, microsoft's marketing couldn't be more wrong
Jun 24 22:22:30 <LuitvD> the poor basterds always point at others
Jun 24 22:22:44 <SpeedEvil> In any specific way, or just generally?
Jun 24 22:23:06 <LuitvD> well, the way they think they can show the good sides of their products
Jun 24 22:23:15 <LuitvD> (especially vista)
Jun 24 22:23:29 <SpeedEvil> They are often correct.
Jun 24 22:23:38 <SpeedEvil> If you consider only microsoft products
Jun 24 22:23:38 <LuitvD> and they're a star at jumping to conclusions
Jun 24 22:24:07 <LuitvD> the nubmers they supply are correct. the conclusions they add to those are subtle, but wrong
Jun 24 22:25:17 <LuitvD> take a look at their latest one: http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1895,2149391,00.asp
Jun 24 22:26:20 <LuitvD> 1: they look at only the first six months of their new and old OS versions, but only at the older version of RHEL 
Jun 24 22:26:35 <LuitvD> and the older version of Ubuntu
Jun 24 22:27:08 <LuitvD> 2: they only look at 'critical security vurnerabilities'
Jun 24 22:28:28 <LuitvD> (3: they most likely added security flaws in open source software added to the linux distribution, which isn't really part of a typical linux desktop/workstation, but that's not certain)
Jun 24 22:29:21 <LuitvD> and what's their conclusion? vista has the least found (and fixed) vurnerabilities (in those first 6 months) and is therefor the safest
Jun 24 22:29:26 <LuitvD> just plain wrong
Jun 24 22:29:36 <SpeedEvil> Then there is the covert department injecting bugs into open-source projects. :)
Jun 24 22:30:04 <LuitvD> it's the conclusion that upsets me
Jun 24 22:30:27 <LuitvD> they can throw numbers as much as they like
Jun 24 22:30:45 <LuitvD> but don't slam a conclusion like that onto it...
Jun 24 22:31:21 <Elrond> People want to hear that crap.
Jun 24 22:31:35 <Elrond> I have a big,big ignore filter by now.
Jun 24 22:32:10 <SpeedEvil> Not to mention how many vulns get caught by nice people with source, and reported, vs black hats without source.
Jun 24 22:32:46 <Elrond> Right.
Jun 24 22:33:10 <LuitvD> Elrond: you have, but 90% of the people who use computers are brainwashed by things like this (read: microsoft )
Jun 24 22:34:02 <Elrond> LuitvD - Well, I have sold nearly all my missionary stocks. ;o)
Jun 24 22:34:18 <LuitvD> and I do care about those brainwashed people
Jun 24 22:34:37 <LuitvD> they can turn around, if they finally find out what it's all about
Jun 24 22:34:42 <thomasg_gpm> well, the most interesting thing on this new microsoft "analysis" is, that not the number of vulnerabilities, but the number of FIXED vulnerabilities is what counts here. somehow it's ironic: for normal it is better if there are more fixes. but microsoft tells "us" that this doesnt matter and software with LESS fixed bugs is MORE secure. thats really absurd!
Jun 24 22:34:53 <Elrond> together with any mercy-for-windows-users stocks. ;o)
Jun 24 22:35:22 * SpeedEvil nearly bought some stock today.
Jun 24 22:35:23 <LuitvD> thomasg_gpm: yeah, they give found and fixed numbers for all OS's but their own
Jun 24 22:35:25 <SpeedEvil> (chicken)
Jun 24 22:36:04 <LuitvD> that's really curious
Jun 24 22:36:09 <LuitvD> unprofessional
Jun 24 22:36:14 <Elrond> SpeedEvil - Huh, what stocks would you have bought?
Jun 24 22:36:30 <SpeedEvil> Chicken stock cubes. I realised I had some.
Jun 24 22:36:50 <thomasg_gpm> so, going to sleep now (and hope for a post of sean on the announce-list ^^). gn8
Jun 24 22:37:06 <LuitvD> thomasg_gpm: sweet dreams ;)
Jun 24 22:37:15 <Elrond> thomasg_gpm - Good night.
Jun 24 22:37:22 <aloril> (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Neo1973_Battery_Charger]]
Jun 24 22:37:23 <SpeedEvil> Seriously, the last one I ascually wanted to buy was google.
Jun 24 22:37:25 <SpeedEvil> WAve.
Jun 24 22:37:31 <LuitvD> thomasg_gpm: I hope those dreams come true
Jun 24 22:37:40 <LuitvD> I have them myself too
Jun 24 22:37:52 <LuitvD> (for how long? 2 months?)
Jun 24 22:38:03 <thomasg_gpm> dreams of flying penguins, surfing on radiowaves :)
Jun 24 22:38:20 <LuitvD> penguins with blue tooth
Jun 24 22:38:28 <LuitvD> teeth
Jun 24 22:38:29 <Vegar> blue teeth*
Jun 24 22:38:30 <LuitvD> ah heck
Jun 24 22:38:44 <LuitvD> a blue tooth
Jun 24 22:40:21 <LuitvD> going to sleep too
Jun 24 22:40:28 <LuitvD> got work to do tomorrow
Jun 24 22:40:51 * LuitvD finally got a job (sadly just for two weeks)
Jun 24 22:40:56 <LuitvD> byebye
Jun 24 23:01:05 <dietricha> counter
Jun 24 23:01:05 <aloril> http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter (65% for P1<=2007-07-07) 70% for *news* in a day 06:29:25 (1.270±1.3 days) (1576;238)
Jun 24 23:45:00 <axeeOo> hello guys, I just heard about the OpenMoko project, I think it's fantastic! Could someone shell out some advice for getting involved (software) with the project? I've checked the website, a wonderful resource!
Jun 24 23:45:00 <aloril> axeeOo: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.)
Jun 24 23:48:18 <dcordes> would openmoko be possible on an HTC s710?
Jun 24 23:49:17 <SpeedEvil> axeeOo: basically - look at the 'emulation' bit of the main page
Jun 24 23:49:53 <SpeedEvil> axeeOo: which will tell you how to setup emulators. Or, in hopefully a few days, you can buy hardware.
Jun 24 23:49:53 <SpeedEvil> dcordes: what's the screen res, flash, and RAM?
Jun 24 23:50:37 <dcordes> SpeedEvil, http://www.htc.com/product/03-product_s710.htm
Jun 24 23:50:53 <SpeedEvil> OM is basically a linux distribution, a small one, but not fittable in several meg. It leverages heavily desktop stuff, so won't fit on some phones.
Jun 24 23:51:35 <axeeOo> cheers SpeedEvil
Jun 24 23:52:20 <dcordes> SpeedEvil, is "TI's OMAP 850" cpu spupported?
Jun 24 23:52:24 <axeeOo> I'm a CS student with a free summer and I need a new phone, one which I can 'hack-at' :-)
Jun 24 23:52:45 <SpeedEvil> dcordes: basically. any CPU with GCC on it is 'supported'
Jun 24 23:53:25 <dcordes> SpeedEvil, how about GSM.. would I be able to make phone calls with that device?
Jun 24 23:53:34 <SpeedEvil> You also need documents, or to hack the details of all the hardware on it though.
Jun 24 23:53:34 <SpeedEvil> And enough ROM/RAM
Jun 24 23:55:12 <dcordes> SpeedEvil, don't you know about someone who tried OM on HTC phones?
Jun 24 23:57:44 <stefan_schmidt> dcordes: ph5 already working on some parts of this.
Jun 24 23:58:16 <stefan_schmidt> dcordes: Mainly HTC support in gsmd and theming for QVGA instead of VGA
Jun 25 00:01:44 <dcordes> stefan_schmidt, that's interesting. Good to see that you guys also work on different hardware and not concentrate only on the neo
Jun 25 00:01:51 <axeeOo> I think I'm going to have a crack at getting OM emulated tomorrow, looks like great fun
Jun 25 00:03:09 <axeeOo> I started writing a vi-inspired code writing tool for my Nokia 6630 with 'meh' results, it would be great to actually port it over to OM!
Jun 25 00:03:26 <stefan_schmidt> dcordes: Many of us guys coming from the OpenEZX project (linux 2.6 on Motorola EZX mobiles). So not that surprising.
Jun 25 00:04:22 <stefan_schmidt> dcordes: Once we are shipping the neo and the software gets in better shape we also work on other hw platforms in private.
Jun 25 00:06:12 <SpeedEvil> dcordes: Sure - once you find out or port the GSM daemon to do it.
Jun 25 00:06:12 <SpeedEvil> dcordes: At the moment, there is little work getting it working on other platforms.
Jun 25 00:06:52 <SpeedEvil> Odd.
Jun 25 00:06:54 <SpeedEvil> dcordes: There may be a problem - the OMAP 850 has the GSM bit on-chip
Jun 25 00:07:37 <SpeedEvil> This means that there is _no_ documentation on the GSM part of the chip.
Jun 25 00:08:31 <SpeedEvil> And that you basically can't legally use it.
Jun 25 00:09:00 <SpeedEvil> As it's not an approved GSM device, in most legislations.
Jun 25 00:09:38 <SpeedEvil> Not to mention that an opensource GSM stack is a huge project of its own.
Jun 25 00:10:10 <SpeedEvil> And that installing it may be a crime - even if you don't use it in some countries.
Jun 25 00:11:07 <SpeedEvil> (UK - for example, it'd be covered under the mobile phone 'chipping' legislation - as an unauthorised modification of the phone
Jun 25 00:12:15 <dcordes> SpeedEvil, so I guess GSM devices have to be registred in most countries?
Jun 25 00:12:26 <dcordes> with their software 
Jun 25 00:13:41 <SpeedEvil> Yes, you have to get the GSM device approved in most countris, before you can legally use it.
Jun 25 00:14:06 <SpeedEvil> This is completely seperate from the fact that you don't have any docs for the GSM part of the chip, which is its own DSP.
Jun 25 00:15:00 <SpeedEvil> The nasty part is that you know that everyone isn't a white-hat.
Jun 25 00:15:28 <CoreDump> security by obscurity never works
Jun 25 00:15:30 <SpeedEvil> And given an open GSM stack, and radio, you know that tehre will be a non-trivial number of people using it to get free calls.
Jun 25 00:15:45 <SpeedEvil> GSM is _not_ a secure protocol though.
Jun 25 00:15:58 <SpeedEvil> And security by obscurity does too work.
Jun 25 00:16:25 <SpeedEvil> Look at the vast number of devices that would be nice to run linux on, but haven't been done, as noone can work out the hardware easily.
Jun 25 00:17:21 <dcordes> SpeedEvil, so the gsmd on openmoko isn't really open?
Jun 25 00:17:39 <SpeedEvil> The modem on the Neo is talked to via AT commands
Jun 25 00:17:45 <SpeedEvil> it's a canned pre-approved module.
Jun 25 00:17:54 <SpeedEvil> Which side-steps these sorts of problems.
Jun 25 00:18:35 <SpeedEvil> Yes, there are nice fun things that could be done with an open GSM stack. But these inherently include easy phone fraud. :/
Jun 25 00:18:54 <SpeedEvil> And DOS attacks against other phones, jamming, ...
Jun 25 00:20:36 <CoreDump> well, the provider should fix their network
Jun 25 00:20:45 <SpeedEvil> Err.
Jun 25 00:20:54 <sixfeet> no shop insight .. i wont get a phone here in de?
Jun 25 00:20:55 <CoreDump> The Bad Guys already have the full GSM specs 
Jun 25 00:21:08 <SpeedEvil> The protocol is fundamentally not designed to be secure against this sort of attack.
Jun 25 00:21:20 <CoreDump> then it needs changing
Jun 25 00:21:22 <SpeedEvil> You basically need to replace all the phones and networks.
Jun 25 00:21:30 <CoreDump> keeping it "secret" solves nothing
Jun 25 00:22:15 <CoreDump> sixfeet: trisoft.de might sell neos when they get released, ask them =)
Jun 25 00:22:18 <SpeedEvil> Keeping it secret, and making it illegal to own, sell, or advertise devices for making fraudulent calls means that the profits are low enough that in most markets it's not worth it.
Jun 25 00:22:39 <sixfeet> CoreDump, ok thx .. i 'll give a try
Jun 25 00:22:49 <CoreDump> any bad guy w/ a deep breath or deep pockets already has the information
Jun 25 00:22:55 <SpeedEvil> Yes.
Jun 25 00:23:00 <CoreDump> so it is pointless
Jun 25 00:23:00 <SpeedEvil> you don't care about him.
Jun 25 00:23:07 <CoreDump> actually yes I do
Jun 25 00:23:17 <CoreDump> think big (as in war)
Jun 25 00:23:37 <SpeedEvil> You care about the guy who mugs people, or does burglary for a living, and has no ethical problem with having a free phone.
Jun 25 00:23:39 <CoreDump> every nation ca easily DOS the entire GSM network of its enemy
Jun 25 00:24:04 <SpeedEvil> State actors can jam practically any network if they care to.
Jun 25 00:24:57 <CoreDump> it gets ugly if RANDOM_FANATICS_GROUP can do the same
Jun 25 00:25:00 <SpeedEvil> Anyway, this is utterly irrelevant.
Jun 25 00:25:24 <SpeedEvil> GSM networks are not going to vastly change the protocol to add authentication - they can't. 
Jun 25 00:25:43 <SpeedEvil> not authentication as such - cryptographic security on all packets I mean.
Jun 25 00:26:07 <SpeedEvil> Future phone networks may do so.
Jun 25 00:26:28 <SpeedEvil> There are sound reasons to try to avoid fully open radios though.
Jun 25 00:26:45 <SpeedEvil> For example, two people using their phones to talk direct can _Really_ screw other users.
Jun 25 00:28:19 <SpeedEvil> Spectrum is annoyingly scarce.
Jun 25 00:30:18 <dcordes> SpeedEvil, is that gsm insecurity a new issue?
Jun 25 00:37:22 <aloril> (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Talk:Look_%26_Feel]]
Jun 25 01:24:10 <apemux> i need a good umts linux smartphone...
Jun 25 01:32:27 <SpeedEvil> Unlikely to be available in the next year or so - at least through FIC
Jun 25 01:33:03 <SpeedEvil> The radios are more expensive, and also less widely used worldwide, so smaller market.
Jun 25 01:37:29 <apemux> the hardware i want runs windows :(
Jun 25 01:37:44 <apemux> i would be fine wiyh
Jun 25 01:38:15 <apemux> withbthat if i had an opportunity to do some tedting of a linux stack
Jun 25 01:38:52 <apemux> but it appears to me that openmoko is not a portable type of thing?
Jun 25 01:42:59 <SpeedEvil> Yes, it's portable.
Jun 25 01:43:13 <SpeedEvil> The problem is - it's not portable to stuff you have no documentation for.
Jun 25 01:43:14 <hads> It's Linux
Jun 25 01:43:35 <SpeedEvil> Unless you generate that documentation, or code drivers through reverse engineering.
Jun 25 01:44:17 <SpeedEvil> OM can run on standard PCs, if you want to do that.
Jun 25 01:47:56 <roh> hey.. you could even run it on some wireless-router with a option-umts-card in its cardbus and some tft on vga which is plugged via usb2 if needed... 
Jun 25 01:48:23 <roh> which does not mean i would recommend such a unhandy mobile phone solution
Jun 25 01:55:28 <SpeedEvil> Are there any USB2->VGA thingies which work under linux?
Jun 25 02:15:06 <roh> SpeedEvil there are. some sis based one
Jun 25 02:17:54 <SpeedEvil> Hmm - I'll look. I assume no USB1.1 ones?
Jun 25 02:18:06 <SpeedEvil> (not expecting updates fast)
Jun 25 02:25:46 <happycube> i read usb 2.0 (high speed - some bastards call usb 1.1 "usb 2.0 full speed" ;) )
Jun 25 02:26:26 <happycube> so i'm not sure if the sis will even talk at usb 1.1 speed - they use a usb->pci bridge iirc
Jun 25 02:33:21 <SpeedEvil> Yeah - some 802.11g dongles'll run at either 1.1 or 2 speeds - and do the right thing, as will some digital TV chips.
Jun 25 02:37:22 <aloril> (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Press_Coverage]]
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Mon Jun 25 02:59:56 2007