**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Mon Jun 25 02:59:56 2007 Jun 25 06:14:56 morning Jun 25 06:17:39 news counter is about 4.5 hours short, so if no news at sometime before past midday Wednesday, then going to add one day, but if that seems to run out too, then going to revert back to P1 counter Jun 25 06:23:57 good morning Jun 25 06:38:02 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Getting_OpenMoko_working_on_host_with_Xephyr]] [[Buying_Interest_List]] Jun 25 06:45:34 counter? Jun 25 06:45:34 "/msg aloril counter?" for actual long message, giving short version here: http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter (65% for P1<=2007-07-07) 70% for *news* in a day 02:37:11 (1.109±1.1 days) (1577;239) Jun 25 06:55:14 sudden, terrible idea! Jun 25 06:55:28 What if people made ads with software like blender and what not Jun 25 06:55:34 community advertisements Jun 25 06:55:38 perhaps put on youtube Jun 25 06:55:46 someone else probably came up with it already Jun 25 08:07:20 good morning Jun 25 08:09:33 florian: good morning Jun 25 08:10:38 hi jsmanrique Jun 25 08:38:42 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Getting_OpenMoko_working_on_host_with_Xephyr]] [[Getting_OpenMoko_working_on_host_with_Xoo]] Jun 25 08:40:37 morning Jun 25 09:02:27 counter Jun 25 09:02:28 http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter (65% for P1<=2007-07-07) 70% for *news* in a day 01:28:44 (1.062±1.1 days) (1578;240) Jun 25 09:24:22 (script) planet: Michael "mickeyl" Lauer: Back from first Taipei visit http://www.vanille-media.de/site/index.php/2007/06/25/back-from-first-taipei-visit/ Jun 25 09:35:57 * * OM Bug 620 has been created by autobuild-reports(AT)openmoko.org Jun 25 09:35:58 * * openmoko-tasks-0.1+svnnow-r0_237-do_compile Jun 25 09:35:59 * * http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=620 Jun 25 10:34:10 hi Jun 25 10:39:22 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Talk:Music_Player]] Jun 25 10:52:32 counter Jun 25 10:52:32 http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter (65% for P1<=2007-07-07) 70% for *news* in a day 00:33:42 (1.023±1.0 days) (1579;240) Jun 25 11:07:06 counter Jun 25 11:07:06 http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter (65% for P1<=2007-07-07) 70% for *news* in a day 00:26:24 (1.018±1.0 days) (1580;240) Jun 25 11:27:47 Yo Yo Jun 25 11:28:15 Write an applications page for the yo-yo emulator. Jun 25 11:28:41 :-0 Jun 25 11:45:08 counter Jun 25 11:45:08 http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter (65% for P1<=2007-07-07) 70% for *news* in a day 00:07:24 (1.005±1.0 days) (1581;240) Jun 25 11:48:21 SpeedEvil, Linux_Galore_ : or even better: write actual yo-yo emulator ;-) Jun 25 11:48:52 i want a lolcode interpreter with gtk bindings Jun 25 11:48:52 ' Jun 25 11:50:54 makes even sense with GTA02 (assuming it will have accelerators) Jun 25 12:01:23 openmoko: 03njp * r2342 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/applications/openmoko-dialer/ (12 files in 3 dirs): Jun 25 12:01:23 openmoko: Port the dialer to use Dbus for single instance behaviour; Add a MokoDialer Jun 25 12:01:23 openmoko: object that wraps most of the dialer-main.c code; Emit signals over the bus, Jun 25 12:01:23 openmoko: allowing for other applications to respond to dialer events; Export methods over Jun 25 12:01:23 openmoko: Dbus to allow other applications to control the Dialer Jun 25 12:03:52 openmoko: 03njp * r2343 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/applications/openmoko-dialer/src/ (Makefile.am moko-dialer-glue.h): Use a staticly-build dbus header file, instead of creating one at compile time Jun 25 12:13:58 hope the GTA02 has wifi Jun 25 12:14:33 Signs point to yes. Jun 25 12:16:42 mjr the 8ball :) Jun 25 12:19:32 openmoko: 03njp * r2344 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/applications/openmoko-dialer/src/moko-dialer.c: Make sure dbus input args are const Jun 25 12:22:29 allot of the apps on th Nokia n800 should be pretty easy to port over Jun 25 12:22:51 program logic, yes Jun 25 12:23:20 N800 has a nice media player (optional foss app) Jun 25 12:26:06 what package manager will the openmoko be using ? Jun 25 12:26:19 ipkg packages Jun 25 12:27:03 hmm, is someone working on ipkg optimizations, btw? Jun 25 12:27:20 it tends to be quite slow with large db... Jun 25 12:27:22 what is there to optimize? Jun 25 12:27:31 oh Jun 25 12:27:36 dunno Jun 25 12:27:40 mmp: try a recent angstrom image Jun 25 12:27:43 guaqua: search in local package database... Jun 25 12:28:02 mmp: although I still think people should look at optimizing dpkg and apt Jun 25 12:28:07 koen: I heard something about sqlite backend... Jun 25 12:28:12 (and rewrite the perl parts in shell) Jun 25 12:28:40 koen: hmm, perl parts into shell? Wouldn't it be faster to put them into C? Jun 25 12:28:52 Im looking at the N800 repo and their all deb thats why Im curious Jun 25 12:28:53 that's another option Jun 25 12:28:56 faster from performance PoV Jun 25 12:30:58 http://catalogue.tableteer.nokia.com/non-certified/ Jun 25 12:34:54 good morning. any news? Jun 25 12:35:46 counter Jun 25 12:35:47 http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter (65% for P1<=2007-07-07) 70% for *news* in 23:42:04 (0.988±1.0 days) (1582;240) Jun 25 12:39:02 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Look_%26_Feel]] Jun 25 12:44:05 2 days + 4 hours and week has gone Jun 25 12:46:19 koen: Upgrading ipkg on root from 0.99.163-r3 to 0.99.163-r4... - I see just bump in package release - (I'm using armv5te) Jun 25 12:46:34 right Jun 25 12:46:46 and suddenly it's 20 times faster :) Jun 25 12:47:04 not sure, ipkg list still takes ages... Jun 25 12:47:16 hmm, maybe a century less:) Jun 25 13:00:58 Hello everyone! Jun 25 13:01:06 ...and big thanks for python/gtk Jun 25 13:01:08 Hi pavelm! Jun 25 13:03:28 hi pavelm Jun 25 13:04:12 * hrw goes away Jun 25 13:06:03 hi, hrw! Jun 25 13:09:38 pavelm - Hi! Jun 25 13:10:31 hi Elrond Jun 25 13:10:47 Hi cheesy Jun 25 13:15:46 BTW: Do we have some docs on the wiki on using gllin? Jun 25 13:16:16 don't think so Jun 25 13:17:10 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/GPS has brief examples Jun 25 13:18:36 Hi, Elrond! Jun 25 13:18:42 I finally got python-gtk to work. Jun 25 13:18:53 So I have my mokomenu.py working. Jun 25 13:19:55 pavelm - Ahh, nice. What is it doing? Jun 25 13:20:23 It can run dialer, play an mp3, etc... And it has haptic feedback :-) Jun 25 13:20:45 pavelm, how does it run python-gtk on openmoko? Jun 25 13:20:52 is it fast enough? Jun 25 13:22:36 SpeedEvil - Yeah, found that by now too. I'll try that in a chroot maybe today. :) Jun 25 13:26:41 zell1983: Fast enough yes.. but it is not _too_ fast. Jun 25 13:27:37 I hope it will be fast enough to display some curves... I want to create a scope-like thingy to display some raw data I get from the gps chip. ;o) Jun 25 13:28:29 gnuplot! Jun 25 13:29:33 hehe. :-) Jun 25 13:29:43 I want it in nearly real time. Jun 25 13:29:58 Like "change PRN here, watch data there". ;-) Jun 25 13:30:01 Elrond, try my plot program: http://xkr47.outerspace.dyndns.org/progs/plot/ Jun 25 13:30:01 :) Jun 25 13:30:10 Elrond: kill the x-server and access the framebuffer directly Jun 25 13:30:24 Hopscotch - From python?! Jun 25 13:30:39 Elrond: why not? Jun 25 13:30:42 Hopscotch - Creating input widgets?! Jun 25 13:30:50 xkr47 - *looking* Jun 25 13:30:59 Elrond: ok, widgets are a problem Jun 25 13:31:16 Elrond: can you do mmap in python? Jun 25 13:31:36 my program reads data from files and can "tail" and update graph in realtime Jun 25 13:31:43 pavelm, do you test only on the emulator or in the real device? Jun 25 13:31:50 Hopscotch - Probably. BUT: I want to concentrate on the gps stuff. Not on creating yet-an-other-GUI-Toolkit for fb. ;) Jun 25 13:32:31 Elrond: ok, i just thought you want to set some pixels fast... Jun 25 13:32:32 elrond: pipe the raw data to the pc (over usb) and display data there? Jun 25 13:33:43 is there an irc channel to discuss pcb/hardware development ? Jun 25 13:34:29 empty_mind - this channel is fine. I think. Jun 25 13:34:40 ##electronics Jun 25 13:34:44 pavelm - Yeah, I was already considering to setup g_serial or so. :) Jun 25 13:35:02 SpeedEvil - With two "#"? Jun 25 13:35:05 yes Jun 25 13:35:15 Fun. Jun 25 13:35:34 #electronics could in theory only be created by someone who had invented or controlled the whole field Jun 25 13:35:52 Freenode rules Jun 25 13:36:19 Oh well. Jun 25 13:37:01 Anyway. I'm off for real work. ;-) Jun 25 13:37:31 Hopscotch: doubt things are limited by X11 speed in Neo1973 (compared to going to framebuffer) Jun 25 13:41:30 zel: python is "fast enough" on real device. Jun 25 13:41:42 elrond: just keep using network and get it out over tcp? Jun 25 13:43:21 ok good! :) Jun 25 13:45:19 xkr47: WTH is bsed? Jun 25 13:45:46 hmm you downloaded my plotter ?-) Jun 25 13:45:51 yes Jun 25 13:46:00 ubuntu doesn't have 'bsed' in any package Jun 25 13:46:07 http://xkr47.outerspace.dyndns.org/tmp/bsed Jun 25 13:46:31 it's my own little software, made a looong time ago.. probably there are standard unix tools that do it better nowadays :) Jun 25 13:47:05 bsed = batch sed Jun 25 13:48:48 the latest version doesn't compile on windows yet, but the next release will Jun 25 13:49:06 (at least in cygwin) Jun 25 13:49:50 there's also a mac version with a more mac-like gui Jun 25 13:50:30 hi all , any custemer news? Jun 25 13:50:37 for when neo is out? Jun 25 13:51:03 see topic Jun 25 13:51:50 (koen, afk, bb in a hour or so) Jun 25 13:52:24 thnaks guaqua Jun 25 13:52:40 np Jun 25 13:57:41 123123 Jun 25 13:57:47 test Jun 25 14:00:31 hi fabiand Jun 25 14:00:45 your test is successfull Jun 25 14:12:35 hi all Jun 25 14:14:48 hi Jun 25 14:32:12 no news today? :( Jun 25 14:32:21 yes Jun 25 14:33:01 I think it's fair to say that the topic will rapidly reflect information., Jun 25 14:36:04 topics are urban myths like search engines Jun 25 14:40:32 If I can put a compiler on the OpenMoko, I could be stranded on a desert island and be happy. Jun 25 14:41:44 I'd rather have a machete and a tinderbox Jun 25 14:41:45 Kal_Torak|work: what about the battery? Jun 25 14:42:23 pffft, I'm sure it's got a good battery. Jun 25 14:42:48 You'd want a solar charger at least. Jun 25 14:43:24 Isn't it funny, whenever you ask people what they would want if stranded on said island, nobody EVER says "boat". Jun 25 14:43:30 and an internet connection so you can share the code Jun 25 14:43:35 hm Jun 25 14:43:37 Yeah. Jun 25 14:43:55 'Harem educated in desert island survival techniques' Jun 25 14:43:56 Well, what I want is to be able to doodle at flash dev on a mobile device. Jun 25 14:44:10 hell, a decent internet connection, w/ your openmoko would get you off the island faster than a little dinghy boat Jun 25 14:44:18 true Jun 25 14:44:19 flash dev? Jun 25 14:44:25 ... Jun 25 14:44:31 Actionscript then? Jun 25 14:44:31 Kal_Torak|work: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.) Jun 25 14:44:36 As in macromedia? Jun 25 14:44:47 Ah, you try to brand it. Jun 25 14:44:54 ~lart Flash Jun 25 14:44:55 * apt duct-tapes Flash to the floor and drools on him Jun 25 14:45:10 HATE@ flash Jun 25 14:45:16 I agree. Jun 25 14:45:18 For most things. Jun 25 14:45:27 Flash has no business on normal websites. Jun 25 14:45:36 But flash has it's place Jun 25 14:45:37 You possibly don't want to do that, at least not without keyboard add-on. Jun 25 14:45:37 christ, I hate actionscript Jun 25 14:45:54 Coding on 2.8" display is probably not much fun, unless you are nearsighted. Jun 25 14:45:57 actionscript == javascript right? Jun 25 14:46:00 ... Jun 25 14:46:01 No. Jun 25 14:46:13 It can comfortably display 80*25 at 20cm or so Jun 25 14:46:18 no? then my teacher lied to me, w/e Jun 25 14:46:37 actionscript is for flash Jun 25 14:46:53 I know that, but I was told it's essentially the same language Jun 25 14:47:00 * Kal_Torak|work goes back to work Jun 25 14:47:12 Watch for the "essentially" trap. Jun 25 14:47:18 fair Jun 25 14:47:19 jsut like java and javascripts are the same language Jun 25 14:47:20 I can prove that 1 is 99 that way. Jun 25 14:47:33 1 is essentially 2 in the grand scheme of things Jun 25 14:47:35 2 is almost 3 Jun 25 14:47:37 :P Jun 25 14:48:02 Kal_Torak|work: :-D Jun 25 14:54:11 ..bye bye! Jun 25 15:03:03 but Neo is not 3 Jun 25 15:11:17 h ithere. Jun 25 15:11:34 same question as always, so I won't speak :) Jun 25 15:30:49 So,did anyone get tomtom Go working on neo1973 yet? Jun 25 15:34:24 No. Jun 25 15:34:41 Neglecting the fact it'd be a violation of the license. Jun 25 15:35:11 buh Jun 25 15:35:18 Wait, there are restrictions on an open project like this? Jun 25 15:35:30 Well, yes. Jun 25 15:35:35 * Kal_Torak|work chuckles Jun 25 15:35:43 You can't do whatever you want with copyrighted software. Jun 25 15:35:47 there are restrictions on closed projects like tomtom Jun 25 15:35:50 it just got far more boring to me Jun 25 15:35:52 Even if you install it on an opensourced OS Jun 25 15:36:11 * Kal_Torak|work shrugs Jun 25 15:36:15 In a perfect world. Jun 25 15:36:18 software can now license what OS you choose to run it on ? Jun 25 15:36:19 Just as you can't legally install autocad, even if you could get it to run. Jun 25 15:36:33 SpeedEvil: if you bought a license, you can install it Jun 25 15:36:38 (without an appropriate license) Jun 25 15:36:50 schurig: but you can't buy that license from tomtom. Jun 25 15:36:50 Software can /try/ to license and restrict anything. Jun 25 15:36:53 They don't sell it. Jun 25 15:37:02 pfft Jun 25 15:37:04 There are legal ways to avoid any software licenses. Jun 25 15:37:33 In some cases. Jun 25 15:37:51 is there any GPS software? It has GPS right? Jun 25 15:37:59 It has GPS Jun 25 15:38:11 there is basically no custom GPS software at this point. Jun 25 15:38:27 What I'm waiting for is a suitable input device for the mobile world. Jun 25 15:38:30 well theoreticly than,CAN you install tomtomgo on the neo1973 Jun 25 15:38:31 You can get positions from the GPS just fine. Jun 25 15:38:45 ah, ok, that falls under the 'mass market' category? Jun 25 15:38:54 * Kal_Torak|work wanders back to work Jun 25 15:39:03 SrRaven: in theory, with the appropriate software to make the OS lie to the software, probably, yes. Jun 25 15:39:27 summatusmentis: pretty much. Mapping - proper open-source maps may be decades off in many areas. Jun 25 15:39:55 :-/ bummer Jun 25 15:40:05 For example openstreetmap totally missed off my local town of 40K, and the nearest city of 140K had one road. Jun 25 15:40:09 so that's two 'cool' things that are not availale in OSS Jun 25 15:40:19 The problem is that there are a couple of map providers globally. Jun 25 15:40:29 And they won't sell to end users. Jun 25 15:40:29 SpeedEvil, That's strange since I thought they used USGS data and that was good data for the US. Jun 25 15:40:40 "they" == "open source map data sets" Jun 25 15:40:57 yeah, and everyone lives in the US Jun 25 15:41:01 This may surprise you, but there are many areas that are not the US :) Jun 25 15:41:14 SpeedEvil: lies! Jun 25 15:41:41 SpeedEvil, Oh, silly me. (-; Jun 25 15:41:51 canada is the only such area Jun 25 15:41:53 SrRaven - http://www.tomtom.com/page.php?Page=gpl Jun 25 15:41:55 I'm not sure what the progress is with the import of the TIGER data from the US, into the OSM map - there were big problems last time it was tried. Jun 25 15:41:57 SpeedEvil, Go petition your government to open up its .gov map data. Jun 25 15:42:03 counter Jun 25 15:42:03 http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter (65% for P1<=2007-07-07) 70% for *news* in 22:08:56 (0.923±0.9 days) (1583;240) Jun 25 15:42:08 * SrRaven slaps madwoota Jun 25 15:42:14 SpeedEvil, Right, TIGER, I had forgotten the name. Jun 25 15:42:18 :) Jun 25 15:42:23 paulproteus: they have spun out ordinance survey into its own department which now gets no government funding. Jun 25 15:42:28 It's entirely self-funded. Jun 25 15:42:43 SpeedEvil, Wow, yikes, sorry to hear that. )-: Jun 25 15:42:52 seriously, i don't think we'll have to wait decades for good maps Jun 25 15:43:00 balrog-kun: why not? Jun 25 15:43:05 here's a good map: http://strangemaps.files.wordpress.com/2006/11/800px-reagan-digitised-poster.JPG Jun 25 15:43:21 one day something is closed-source and the next day it's opensource (and never the other way) Jun 25 15:43:47 balrog-kun: The current openstreetmap 'planet' file is on the order of 300M, compressed. Jun 25 15:43:47 it's just a matter of what the marketting dept. of a big comapny X thinks brings more money Jun 25 15:43:54 mass-adoption of gps is the best case currently for not having to wait forever Jun 25 15:44:15 and opensource does bring money Jun 25 15:44:30 balrog-kun: It needs to be at least a hundred times that size, probably several thousand, to approach the detail of commercial maps. Jun 25 15:45:40 SpeedEvil: yeah, but there are commercial maps made by companies that even claim to support opensource all that they can, i don't think it's long till there're commercial opensource maps Jun 25 15:45:52 balrog-kun: like who? Jun 25 15:46:00 like google Inc. Jun 25 15:46:10 Google does not make maps. Jun 25 15:46:26 well, it has data that can generate good maps Jun 25 15:46:26 It is solely a provider of maps from map sellers. Jun 25 15:46:37 It owns none of that data though. Jun 25 15:46:48 It pays the companies for a license to show it to users. Jun 25 15:47:19 They are the ones that go out (or subcontractors) and actually drive down roads checking names. Jun 25 15:47:26 This is _expensive_. Jun 25 15:48:16 * aloril thinks openstreetmaps or something like that will result in good open source maps in less than decades Jun 25 15:48:16 It would be really cool if we could crowdsource it. Jun 25 15:48:26 SpeedEvil: hmm, true, but i still don't think it will be decades Jun 25 15:48:35 aloril, *nod* Jun 25 15:48:42 assuming easy support for it exists in mobile phones with gps Jun 25 15:48:45 Ten people driving around one day of the weekend each month for each 100,000 people in a city would be really cool. Jun 25 15:49:19 yeah, and you only need to create one cool gps using game that results in mapping -> won't take long Jun 25 15:49:29 aloril++ Jun 25 15:49:49 You could it the half-new data, half-verification way that e.g. recaptcha.net handles the issue. Jun 25 15:49:55 s/could it/could do it/ Jun 25 15:49:55 paulproteus meant: You could do it the half-new data, half-verification way that e.g. recaptcha.net handles the issue. Jun 25 15:50:27 SpeedEvil: there is a moble google maps program, that runs as a .jar(i've got it on my nokia 6265i), could that be used? Jun 25 15:50:30 not open source... Jun 25 15:50:53 summatusmentis, "mobile google maps" program means it surely connects via some API to the Google Maps servers. Jun 25 15:51:07 probably Jun 25 15:51:12 You could write a Free client that talked using the same API; just eavesdrop on the network communication the program uses or have someone decompile it and write an API spec. Jun 25 15:51:19 * drath wonders if that new offline google api stuff could help here Jun 25 15:51:23 (I volunteer for writing the spec if someone wants to write the alternate program.) Jun 25 15:51:24 SpeedEvil: and expensive commercial things are also done for opensource sometimes, and that may be likely to happen when a really neat and expensive phone comes out that should contain good maps, i don't see why the manufacturer wouldn't contribute money for the maps Jun 25 15:51:32 in can most likely be used, if somebody (TM) gets around to doing that j2me support Jun 25 15:51:39 feh, j2me Jun 25 15:51:52 mjr: yeah, that's what my phone is using j2me Jun 25 15:51:55 summatusmentis: Go and look at the google-maps terms and conditions. Jun 25 15:51:59 it'll also be slow, 'cause it'll get the maps on-line Jun 25 15:52:03 I should make a page listing the things I'll offer to write reverse engineer specs for. Jun 25 15:52:05 They are quite aggressive saying what you can't do with the data Jun 25 15:52:44 SpeedEvil: the program itself uses a GPS(or could), so there's no reason an opensource j2me phone can't use the same program Jun 25 15:54:09 summatusmentis: The problem lies with the rights to the map-data which google buys in bulk from other companies. If the allow their users to do whatever they want with those maps they would breach their contracts. Jun 25 15:54:48 The application is not the problem, the data/information is. Jun 25 15:55:06 * aloril thinks writing that mapping game is less than one man-year work with right idea, actually just need example client + server + specs for API Jun 25 15:55:27 The _mapping software_ is trivial. Jun 25 15:55:36 hey guys, any rumors about the uber-waited release of neo? Jun 25 15:55:37 The map is tens of thousands of man-years. Jun 25 15:55:50 Kensan: I know that legally we can't have access to the maps/API/etc., but they're application does what we're looking for Jun 25 15:56:00 SpeedEvil: yup, just make actual mapping game ;-) Jun 25 15:56:08 summatusmentis: only for those on unlimited data contracts Jun 25 15:56:19 summatusmentis: only for those in coverage where they need the map Jun 25 15:56:33 SpeedEvil: ok, that's fair Jun 25 15:56:34 so leverage in creating that game is huge, like 1000-10000x Jun 25 15:56:40 summatusmentis: you can't legally download and save bits of the map. Jun 25 15:57:29 SpeedEvil: right... I guess I wasn't thinking about the data aspect of it Jun 25 15:57:36 aloril, I agree, and I volunteer to help with the technical ends. I Jun 25 15:57:42 'm not good at making games or designing UIs, though. Jun 25 15:57:52 * summatusmentis is not cut out to be a openmoko brainstormer Jun 25 15:58:02 and all that thousands of man-years of work will be rendered wasted as soon as we populate a new planet :p Jun 25 15:58:19 heh, guess it's worth taking that risk Jun 25 15:58:52 balrog-kun: oh, cool, new map! lots of mappers will rush to get best pieces mapped ;-) Jun 25 15:59:05 np ;-) Jun 25 15:59:57 you would have the chance of mapping streets while they're beeing built - not like this time, when all the streets were built before we had mapping software Jun 25 16:00:27 We have a lot of empty pages (existant, but 0 bytes. Due to spam, etc.) in the wiki. Does it make sense to rename one to create a new page instead of creating a new one? Jun 25 16:01:36 you could try to force the state to add every new street to an open streetmap when it's being built as an official requirement :) Jun 25 16:01:45 I've estimated that my local town of 40K people needs at least 100K nodes to fully describe it. Jun 25 16:02:21 This is several months of work. Jun 25 16:02:30 SpeedEvil, What sort of work? Jun 25 16:02:46 Going down streets getting numbers and noting paths Jun 25 16:03:12 Naming streets, saying where the one-way system goes, ... Jun 25 16:05:42 Right. Jun 25 16:05:53 I have done basic stuff in my 100k work city. ;-) Jun 25 16:07:00 ;) Jun 25 16:07:22 SpeedEvil: http://www.tegmento.org/gpsylon/ ? Jun 25 16:07:45 again, there might be a data issue there Jun 25 16:10:32 http://earth-info.nga.mil/gns/html/index.html is the data source, it seems. Jun 25 16:14:12 counter Jun 25 16:14:13 http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter (65% for P1<=2007-07-07) 70% for *news* in 21:52:51 (0.912±0.9 days) (1584;240) Jun 25 16:15:35 paulproteus: so... it looks like it's freely available then? Jun 25 16:15:51 summatusmentis, Yes, I think that's right. The big question is data set size. Jun 25 16:15:57 true Jun 25 16:16:23 paulproteus: and we'd be looking at getting the whole data set? Jun 25 16:16:53 summatusmentis, Sure, I don't know, I just clicked one link on the page you sent me to. (-: Jun 25 16:17:26 lol, me neither, I'm just throwing ideas into the dark here Jun 25 16:19:27 it's big, 720MB Jun 25 16:19:29 Q: I would like to download all the country name zip files. Could you please tell me how I can do this without having to do them one by one? I have a list of the files now that I extracted from your web page, but cannot work out how to do a bulk ftp download. I got into ftp mode on your site, but that did not help either as I could not locate the directory. Jun 25 16:19:29 A: You can acomplish this through our FTP site: ftp://ftp.nga.mil/pub/gns_data/. If you are in possession of a graphical FTP client, you can transfer all available country data files to your machine (providing you have the space [~720MB] and the bandwidth). Jun 25 16:20:28 Hah! Gpsylon seems to use expedia.com maps: GPSylon is able to show maps downloaded from the expedia map servers. It may connect to a gps device and track your position on the maps. Jun 25 16:21:30 SpeedEvil, I have a question about data: Jun 25 16:21:40 ? Jun 25 16:21:47 (I'm working on it...) Jun 25 16:22:14 In the US, you can hold no copyright-like right over pure data. Why not just get some American to make dumps of the existing databases in a different format, thereby liberating them, and then redistributing them? Jun 25 16:22:30 Downloading from google, expedia, whatever is easy. Doing it legally isn't possible. You can display the maps, but not download them for later use. Jun 25 16:22:53 Because the data isn't pure data, you can't get to it. Jun 25 16:23:02 It's only presented in a presentation format Jun 25 16:23:18 So you'd have to do something like OCR to get the raw data out, which isn't very helpful. Jun 25 16:23:30 Though you could just loop: for address in list, geocode it, POST it.... Jun 25 16:23:36 But that doesn't get you everything. Jun 25 16:23:38 Plus,m there are bits of 'original' data in there. Jun 25 16:23:47 Which do not reflect reality on the ground. Jun 25 16:24:08 But are put there to make it illegal on another ground coyping the map. Jun 25 16:24:23 paulproteus: certain companies deliberatly put mistakes into their maps/data so they could prove you stole the data form them. Jun 25 16:24:31 It's more than that. Jun 25 16:24:39 The mistakes are original content. Jun 25 16:24:48 And protected thereby by copyright. Jun 25 16:24:52 Kensan, But again, there's no problem with "stealing" the data since in the US there are no restrictions on sharing pure data, only "expressions of information" or "patented inventions". Jun 25 16:25:02 well, why can GPSylon use expedia? Jun 25 16:25:06 SpeedEvil, No; (C) only covers *expressions* of information. Digesting something and regurgitating it is legal. Jun 25 16:26:14 summatusmentis: read the terms and condtionts on expedia. They can't. Jun 25 16:26:20 (legally) Jun 25 16:27:08 SpeedEvil, But do you see my point about pure data? If only we could access it without being bound to some contract, then we'd be free to redistribute. Jun 25 16:27:23 but they are, w/ no issues(apparently, or they wouldn't be here) Jun 25 16:27:32 morning all Jun 25 16:27:41 nice to see the change on the main site Jun 25 16:27:57 mintee, Eh? /me hits up openmoko.com Jun 25 16:28:09 .org Jun 25 16:28:09 http://www.openmoko.org/ Jun 25 16:28:55 how many neo Jun 25 16:28:57 err Jun 25 16:28:58 summatusmentis: Just because there is an opensource project doesn't mean it complies with the terms and conditions of the data providing service. Jun 25 16:29:04 how many neo's have been shipped out? Jun 25 16:29:28 SpeedEvil: I'm aware, but presumably, if they'd been found(or if expedia cared) they'd be shut dwon? Jun 25 16:29:30 down* Jun 25 16:29:55 Yes. Jun 25 16:30:08 The problem isn't expedia. Jun 25 16:30:25 The problem is that expedia has signed contracts with the map providers to just show users map data Jun 25 16:30:54 Letting the users download that data would be _much_ more expensive to do. Jun 25 16:31:05 mintee: what change are you talking about Jun 25 16:31:12 Because once the data gets out, it has almost no value. Jun 25 16:31:28 SpeedEvil: right, that makes sense Jun 25 16:31:35 summatusmentis, i guess it's been a few weeks since i looked at the site. sorry, out of touch, heh. Jun 25 16:32:03 mintee: lol, oh, you got me way to excited :-P I thought maybe something had been shipped etc. Jun 25 16:32:32 summatusmentis, heh, sorry. guess your inline for a phone eh? you know how many has been shipped? Jun 25 16:32:39 last I heard only about 50 or so Jun 25 16:33:13 mintee: I'm not, but I'm eagerly awaiting any news :-P I need new phone in august, and i'm hoping a dev version of the GTA02 will be available Jun 25 16:33:47 but even if not, I'll be getting one in august I think Jun 25 16:34:27 yeah, i think my plan is up around aug, or sept also. Looking forward to picking this up Jun 25 16:34:57 me too Jun 25 16:39:42 Penetration: http://img265.imageshack.us/img265/7466/armpenlo9.jpg Jun 25 16:39:43 oops Jun 25 16:40:03 erm... >_> Jun 25 16:40:06 <_< Jun 25 16:40:36 Worksafe - just meant for elsewhere Jun 25 16:40:46 lol, the word penetration, then an image, draw your own conclusion :-P Jun 25 16:42:14 just kidding SpeedEvil, <3 Jun 25 16:44:02 soooo bored Jun 25 16:44:48 * SpeedEvil is currently trying to find a suitable FM radio to jam into the neo. Jun 25 16:45:13 There are some nice chips out there - but annoyingly unavailable in quantities of under a reel. Jun 25 17:03:58 any hardware news? Jun 25 17:08:15 * don-o listens to the erie silence Jun 25 17:09:01 * Kal_Torak|work fires a .30-06 in don-o's ear Jun 25 17:09:09 ow Jun 25 17:12:29 don-o: same question, same silence :) Jun 25 17:12:39 i suppose no news so far Jun 25 17:12:57 I'm pretty sure there would be massive celebration, and it'd be in the topic, etc. if there were any news Jun 25 17:13:01 hey today in my city it's 48C :) Jun 25 17:13:07 ... Jun 25 17:13:15 it's really crazy stuff. Jun 25 17:13:17 What is this question that nobody is willing to ask? Jun 25 17:13:26 This is not Harry Potter's world you know :P Jun 25 17:13:34 The Question That Must Not Be Named? Jun 25 17:13:42 same as don-o's, whether or not there's news reagarding the neo, I think Jun 25 17:13:43 * don-o laughs Jun 25 17:13:58 Kal_Torak|work: speaking of which, 7th book comes out soon Jun 25 17:13:58 The Phone that shall not be Sold. Jun 25 17:13:59 Kaloz: yep, we would like to hear some news about neo. Jun 25 17:14:15 lol Jun 25 17:14:20 the last email mentioned 'big news' and 'soon' Jun 25 17:14:30 counter Jun 25 17:14:30 http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter (65% for P1<=2007-07-07) 70% for *news* in 21:22:42 (0.891±0.9 days) (1585;240) Jun 25 17:14:46 don-o: 'soon' is not a measure :) Jun 25 17:14:49 it's relative Jun 25 17:14:55 big news? Voldemort decided to give up? Jun 25 17:14:57 summatusmentis: the counter bot was killed long ago. as i like to say, it was only good at predicting when its counter would be reset. Jun 25 17:15:06 lol Jun 25 17:15:11 lol Jun 25 17:16:01 don-o: well, a predition is a prediction :) Jun 25 17:16:33 oh the irony Jun 25 17:17:27 summatusmentis: nobody is pushing, I'm just really very impatient to get the hands on neo Jun 25 17:18:10 Any changes that we get new images or daily snapshots updated again. I currently don't have the resources to build the whole image by myself. Jun 25 17:18:25 bedboi: pushing? I know, I get it Jun 25 17:18:56 bedboi: I was commenting on the fact that a predition(no c) is a prediction :-) Jun 25 17:19:21 * Kal_Torak|work is probly going to end up with an iphone Jun 25 17:19:27 oops, heresy. Jun 25 17:19:36 lrg: Can we now chat about the Bluetooth PCM <-> Codec interaction Jun 25 17:20:06 Kal_Torak|work: I can't afford one, and the neo will be better Jun 25 17:20:10 lol Jun 25 17:20:30 Kal_Torak|work: don't want an iphone Jun 25 17:20:39 i hate apple's stuff Jun 25 17:20:50 I'm not an apple fan. Jun 25 17:20:56 I'm a fan of what tool does the job best for me. Jun 25 17:21:06 holtmann: sorry, I'm about to leave. I'll bbl tonight Jun 25 17:21:18 And idiots who hate a product just because of who made it, well, are idiots. Jun 25 17:21:46 Kal_Torak|work: you should excuse me for having a position on a company. Jun 25 17:21:53 o rly? Jun 25 17:21:54 i'm not only talking about a product Jun 25 17:22:26 well, regardless of companies, etc. I'm getting to the point where I think the iPhone will flop Jun 25 17:22:30 it's my money and i decide who to spend it Jun 25 17:22:51 s/who/how Jun 25 17:22:51 Of course. Jun 25 17:23:26 and if i dislike for some reason the mission of a company i don't like to feed it Jun 25 17:23:58 that's the same for free software and proprietary software. Jun 25 17:25:07 counter Jun 25 17:25:08 http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter (65% for P1<=2007-07-07) 70% for *news* in 21:17:24 (0.887±0.9 days) (1586;240) Jun 25 17:26:24 Yeah, I wouldn't spend my money on free software. Jun 25 17:31:42 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Wish_List]] [[Neo1973/de]] [[Talk:Contacts/02]] [[Buying_Interest_List]] [[User:Drokzid]] Jun 25 17:53:13 counter Jun 25 17:53:13 http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter (65% for P1<=2007-07-07) 70% for *news* in 21:03:21 (0.877±0.9 days) (1587;240) Jun 25 18:47:47 IIRC bigger announcements have usually come at morning (3am-7am UCT) Jun 25 18:48:14 not very positive, though Jun 25 18:48:37 * mmp will have to wait another 12 hours, because that time is in the interval of his deepest sleep mode:) Jun 25 18:49:11 mmp: buy extra battery, so you can skip the sleep :) Jun 25 18:51:17 :)) Jun 25 18:52:14 thats morning-midday at Taiwan Jun 25 18:52:15 battery Jun 25 18:52:22 how about a reactor! Jun 25 18:52:25 shop open? Jun 25 18:53:10 ynezz: doesn't seem so Jun 25 18:53:32 * Kal_Torak|work closes shop Jun 25 18:53:57 * Kero brings his sleeping bag and sleeps in front of the shop Jun 25 18:54:10 * Kal_Torak|work shakes his head Jun 25 18:54:35 People who camp out in front of stores just for a digital gizmo need to have their heads checked. Jun 25 18:54:38 Repeatedly. Jun 25 18:54:51 Tuesday and Wednesday morning/day would be in time, Thursday would be a bit late Jun 25 18:56:29 Kal_Torak|work: iPhone is not option at all, because I can do with it only a small fraction of stuff that I can do with Neo173 Jun 25 18:57:35 checked my head. It says "Free the phone". more than just a digital gizmo :P Jun 25 19:01:00 Kero: your head says stuff? Jun 25 19:01:16 no the friend inside Jun 25 19:01:25 i have two of them! Jun 25 19:02:49 wait, I thought aloril2 was a bot Jun 25 19:02:50 Creepy. Jun 25 19:02:50 loufoque: out loud Jun 25 19:03:36 Kero: you might consider having a shower Jun 25 19:03:43 Kero: with shampoo Jun 25 19:03:53 cyborg ;-) Jun 25 19:04:10 +_- Jun 25 19:06:53 imgine carpenter buying nice house without workshop, without possibility to buy/use tools: would be quite frustrating; same thing with developer and iPhone and also why people (including me) so eagerly wait Neo1973: it has very nice 'workshop' in addition being nice 'house' Jun 25 19:07:11 counter Jun 25 19:07:11 http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter (65% for P1<=2007-07-07) 70% for *news* in 20:26:22 (0.852±0.9 days) (1588;240) Jun 25 19:07:41 It also looks like it will be awhile until it's mature. Jun 25 19:08:25 i can deal with unstable Jun 25 19:08:37 as long as it makes calls Jun 25 19:08:53 everything else is extra Jun 25 19:09:04 calls, sms, and able to run as a gprs modem... Jun 25 19:09:17 my nokia7610 crashes randomly when being used as a modem :-( Jun 25 19:09:25 and then takes five minutes to reboot Jun 25 19:09:52 e815 crashes whenever txt'ing or calling Jun 25 19:10:46 randomly Jun 25 19:12:53 yeah, maybe say that its nice piece of land with unfinished house (but good work so far with house and foundation is rock) Jun 25 19:14:17 being unfinished is not problem for good carpenter: at least (s)he gets what (s)he wants ;-) Jun 25 19:31:22 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Buying_Interest_List]] Jun 25 19:51:16 pH5 - BTW: Last weekend I tried to play with flag 0x1. Jun 25 19:52:22 pH5 - Result 1: Don't do it too often. My chip finally ended up in not talking to me at all. I thought, I had fried it. My friend luckily enough suggested to pull the batter. Which restored the old behaviour. Jun 25 19:52:42 pH5 - Result 2: It looks like it disabled flag 0x4. So 0x5 == 0x0 == 0x1. Jun 25 19:53:46 hi Elrond. I started looking at the disassembled gllin, but no good without debugging symbols. I need an ARM interpreter in the disassembler to make sense of the ugly c++ produced assembler code. Jun 25 19:53:53 Elrond: ok, so that's a result at least :) Jun 25 19:54:33 pH5 - A friend tried that too. I think, he gave up. He even asked me, if I could organize debugging symbols. ;o) Jun 25 19:55:14 I try to stay away from the debugging symbols, so that we have a slight "clean room"-excuse. ;o) Jun 25 19:55:34 I started with a script that puts the strings back for printf, puts and alike, but the really interesting debug strings aren't wired, it seems. Jun 25 19:55:46 s/the debugging symbols/disassembling/ Jun 25 19:55:47 Elrond meant: I try to stay away from disassembling, so that we have a slight "clean room"-excuse. ;o) Jun 25 19:58:27 pH5 - I assume you still have no idea, on what basis the driver decides, that a satelite is not receivable? Jun 25 19:58:44 It may be that it simply picks the 8 highest ones Jun 25 19:59:36 SpeedEvil - I talk about the initial "We don't know anything, not even the almanac/ephemeris"-period. Jun 25 19:59:51 h Jun 25 19:59:53 Ah Jun 25 20:00:04 Elrond: I guess it somehow tries to catch the maximum received energy in those "bins" you talked about earlier (are those the 12bit values in the memory at 0x23?) Jun 25 20:00:29 I would _imagine_ that it simply decides it can't recieve it after not finding sufficient energy in any of the correlator bins Jun 25 20:00:38 the gllin strings talk about some "coarse sniffing" and "zooming in". Jun 25 20:01:06 Hmm, fun. Jun 25 20:01:12 SpeedEvil: sounds reasonable. but how :) Jun 25 20:01:38 Elrond: have you tried different frequency plan setups with gllin? Jun 25 20:01:40 SpeedEvil - Yeah, that was my assumption... but those freaky bins have 0xfff in there even for invisible sats... maybe some scaling? Jun 25 20:01:42 ph5: what do you mean how? Jun 25 20:02:02 how does it decide what is sufficient energy. Jun 25 20:02:05 pH5 - frequency plan setups?! Jun 25 20:02:18 I guess that the code somehow tries to find and hold a peak. Jun 25 20:02:20 pH5: sphyrna r15 is in the angstrom feeds now Jun 25 20:02:21 Elrond: it won't likely be zero for any bin. You will get some noise appearing. Jun 25 20:02:22 Elrond: -freq parameter. Jun 25 20:03:03 Elrond: Any wideband noise will appear more or less evenly in all the bins. Jun 25 20:03:03 I hope there might be a different setup of some register due to this. Jun 25 20:03:06 pH5 - I haven't used gllin till now. I plan to setup a chroot first. ;-) Jun 25 20:03:10 <-- is a bit paranoid ;) Jun 25 20:03:32 pH5, Elrond: any sphyrna stuff you want me to try next week? Jun 25 20:03:35 aah :) Jun 25 20:03:48 koen: "find out how it works" :D Jun 25 20:04:10 SpeedEvil - Yeah. But 0xfff (the maximum) should not appear due to this... Unless there is some scaling. "Scale everything up" or so. Jun 25 20:04:33 Yeah. Unless it's indicating something else. Jun 25 20:04:45 Elrond: did you proceed with your correlator bin scope? Jun 25 20:04:52 * balrog-kun guesses you could run gllin in qemu on the host (not qemu-neo1973, just qemu-arm) and communicate over ssh Jun 25 20:04:52 koen - *duck* Try some social engineering at infineon ;o))) Jun 25 20:05:01 'integration timed out without producing any results over threshold' for example. Jun 25 20:05:25 pH5 - I have cleaned up a few GB on my desktop till now. ;-) Jun 25 20:05:37 pH5 - And I'm supposed to do paid work. ,o) Jun 25 20:06:11 Elrond: yeah, pity they don't pay you for hammerhead RE :) Jun 25 20:06:26 SpeedEvil - Ahh. Hmm. Jun 25 20:06:50 pH5 - *pssst* I hope, I can keep the neo afterwards. ;-) Jun 25 20:07:06 If that was the case 'neo wrapped in foil' would hopefully produce more FF Jun 25 20:07:37 SpeedEvil - Hmm. microwave ofen (of course OFF) shoudl also do, right? Jun 25 20:08:24 Umm - perhaps. Jun 25 20:08:32 the shielding is optimised for one wavelength. Jun 25 20:08:36 And it's not quite GPS Jun 25 20:08:51 I would imagine it probably would Jun 25 20:08:56 Is it really optimised for one wavelelength? Jun 25 20:08:57 (I'd also unplug it :) ) Jun 25 20:09:28 The other idea is taking it to work. We have large faraday box. ;-) Jun 25 20:10:00 (Ahh, unplugging is a good idea.) Jun 25 20:12:14 plug neo into linuxbox, start: sleep 600 && walk over the yard && let vibrator tuck a second && conduct test && vibrator && walk back, grab data Jun 25 20:12:17 ;i) Jun 25 20:18:46 holtmann: OE now has bluez libs and utils 3.12 Jun 25 20:19:19 Now we just need Om to catch up. ;o) Jun 25 20:27:09 koen: hmmh, time to get out that bluetooth headset again. Jun 25 20:27:34 pH5: bmidgley is the bt headset master Jun 25 20:29:03 koen: Great. Please also get the new hcidump. You might run into troubles with the old one. It depends on bluez-libs-3.12. Jun 25 20:31:53 i like the idea, lets idle here ;) Jun 25 20:33:07 hi DocTrax ;) Jun 25 20:33:15 hi sixfeet Jun 25 20:33:32 oller iddler Jun 25 20:33:38 holtmann: hci.c:820: error: 'sniff_subrate_cp' undeclared (first use in this function) Jun 25 20:33:48 * koen checks if bluez-libs 3.12 is installed correctly Jun 25 20:35:07 hm, since sean made his "promise" it was really quiet on the mailinglists. :) <2 days remaining Jun 25 20:41:26 holtmann: should that be sniff_subrating_cp instead? Jun 25 20:42:14 Yes. I had to do some renaming, but these are only used by hcidump. Jun 25 20:42:32 Do you wanna have a patch that makes the older hcidumps compile again. Jun 25 20:42:46 hcidump 1.36 seems to still use the old names Jun 25 20:43:01 gah Jun 25 20:43:05 I need 1.37 Jun 25 20:43:11 * koen <- idiot Jun 25 20:45:04 Packaged contents of bluez-hcidump into /data/build/koen/OE/build/tmp/angstrom/deploy/glibc/ipk/armv4t/bluez-hcidump_1.37-r0_armv4t.ipk Jun 25 20:48:59 I blame the Bluetooth SIG for having parts of the 2.1 specification public and then later remove it and then renaming it. Jun 25 20:50:26 well, you did say "the new hcidump" and I picked 1.36, so that's just me being an idiot Jun 25 21:22:16 pH5 - Can you test the my changed automake stuff in sphyrna some time? (I'm not really feeling like automake these days) Jun 25 21:23:16 pH5 - Oh, and please run decode.py on a log from you, before and after updating. Jun 25 21:24:08 counter Jun 25 21:24:08 http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter (65% for P1<=2007-07-07) 70% for *news* in 19:17:53 (0.804±0.8 days) (1589;240) Jun 25 21:24:33 Elrond: sure, will do tomorrow. Jun 25 21:24:36 good night Jun 25 22:03:54 hi Jun 25 22:04:15 ho Jun 25 22:14:00 counter Jun 25 22:14:00 http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter (65% for P1<=2007-07-07) 70% for *news* in 18:52:58 (0.787±0.8 days) (1590;240) Jun 25 22:14:19 lol, that's not much... 1,6 days at most... Jun 25 22:14:38 so the news is tomorrow? Jun 25 22:14:41 :) **** ENDING LOGGING AT Tue Jun 26 02:59:56 2007