**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Sat Jun 30 02:59:57 2007 Jun 30 03:00:32 july 9... Jun 30 03:00:33 blah Jun 30 03:01:47 couter Jun 30 03:01:49 couter? Jun 30 03:02:13 counter Jun 30 03:02:14 (last update 2007-06-28T13:46) http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter 60% for P1 in a week, 2 days 08:57:41 (9.373±1.0 days) (1650;242) Jun 30 03:02:23 madwoota, show off ;-) Jun 30 03:02:23 lol Jun 30 03:02:51 i spel gooder Jun 30 03:03:00 lol Jun 30 03:03:25 http://giyf.us/define:couter Jun 30 03:03:54 madwoota, i was just protecting my elbows Jun 30 03:05:54 "Did you mean: define:counter" Jun 30 03:05:56 lol :P Jun 30 03:06:19 lol.. stupid google Jun 30 03:06:25 of course i didn't mean counter! Jun 30 03:06:26 lol Jun 30 03:06:41 excellent Jun 30 03:06:52 can get to the outside world Jun 30 03:06:55 muhahaha Jun 30 03:07:29 raster, jp got'cha down? Jun 30 03:08:06 nooo Jun 30 03:08:18 my neo now can connect to the rest of the internude Jun 30 03:08:28 i managed to brick it Jun 30 03:08:31 and now de-brick it Jun 30 03:08:44 haha internude.. that is awesome Jun 30 03:08:51 along with the old problem of "bettery dont charge" and "flat battery == no neo boot" Jun 30 03:09:07 so i needed to do some funky stuff to get it alive again Jun 30 03:09:11 but now its back and kicking Jun 30 03:09:12 :) Jun 30 03:09:13 raster, are you using a phase 0 device? Jun 30 03:09:24 01v4 Jun 30 03:09:37 is that what we get to spend money on soon? Jun 30 03:09:37 but it had and old bootloader Jun 30 03:10:04 i needed to reflahs bootloader to update to get it to boot with a flat battery and charge Jun 30 03:10:07 i guess so Jun 30 03:10:27 usb-wise it comes up as a usb ethernet device once the kernel is booted Jun 30 03:10:33 before that u get usb serial devices Jun 30 03:10:36 for the bootloader Jun 30 03:10:43 (serial console) Jun 30 03:10:56 ui and userspace wise its nowhere near usable Jun 30 03:11:02 but that just needs fixing Jun 30 03:11:03 :) Jun 30 03:11:35 does a usb ethernet device work? ... such.. can i plug my usb ethernet into the device and use a standard CAT`X` connection? Jun 30 03:12:22 No Jun 30 03:12:34 USB ethernet is a virtual ethernet connection between host and device Jun 30 03:12:36 doh Jun 30 03:12:42 there is no actual real ethernet there Jun 30 03:12:45 its the other way around Jun 30 03:12:58 right, but i am asking if someone has tried a usb ethernet device Jun 30 03:13:02 the neo presents ITSELF as a usb ethernet device TO the host pc its plugged into (vie the usb cable) Jun 30 03:13:09 ah Jun 30 03:13:13 well.. cool Jun 30 03:13:15 the ethernet port is unpowered Jun 30 03:13:25 Yes - between host and device. I diddn't specify which way :) Jun 30 03:13:31 so no device will work that doesnt have a way of getting its power from somewhere else Jun 30 03:13:35 cool ;) Jun 30 03:13:42 ok.. yeah.. i see the issue more now Jun 30 03:13:43 You can use an ethernet USB adaptor or any other USB thing. But. Jun 30 03:13:50 You need a battery powerd hub. Jun 30 03:14:00 yup Jun 30 03:14:07 neo isnt goign to power your devices for you Jun 30 03:14:09 ok.. so i *can* use a usb ethernet adaptor with a powered hub Jun 30 03:14:10 Or AC of course Jun 30 03:14:12 neat.. that is what i was asking Jun 30 03:14:13 yes Jun 30 03:14:18 cool Jun 30 03:14:28 the 02 will have wifi Jun 30 03:14:31 Or webcam, hard disk, USB rocket launcher Jun 30 03:14:42 so that might be better Jun 30 03:15:10 is the 02 what we are going to see in oct? Jun 30 03:15:20 Scheduled for, yes Jun 30 03:23:44 details are public on the 02 Jun 30 03:44:14 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Wish_List_-_Hardware]] Jun 30 03:51:20 so, what are the plans for supporting 3G or 4G networks? Jun 30 03:51:30 or are we pretty much stuck with 2G + wiki Jun 30 03:51:38 * daMaestro can't recall what G wifi is Jun 30 03:51:47 802.11g? Jun 30 03:51:50 That. Jun 30 03:51:51 i know GSM is 2G Jun 30 03:52:02 no no... there is some rating system Jun 30 03:52:29 GPRS is also available on the neo(2.5G) Jun 30 03:53:13 yeah yeah.. still 2G ;-) Jun 30 03:53:14 lol Jun 30 03:53:22 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2G Jun 30 03:53:38 * daMaestro stands correctly Jun 30 03:53:42 corrected* Jun 30 03:53:49 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2.5G Jun 30 03:54:56 ahh wifi is not classified as a XG because it is not a licensed spectrum? Jun 30 03:55:55 i argued with a tmobile "tech" about this stuff Jun 30 03:56:10 while it's unlikely, did anyone here got and get an iPhone? Jun 30 03:56:14 i was showing off the open moko.. and he got all into the "you wont have tzones" ... "xyz tech is slow" Jun 30 03:56:19 i pretty much wanted to punch him Jun 30 03:56:43 tzones is... the wifi thinger? Jun 30 03:57:12 yeah.. something stupid Jun 30 03:57:26 i really wanted to punch the guy (and i know him well) Jun 30 03:57:35 he first argued that it is G3... Jun 30 03:57:44 and that verizon is slower then tmobile Jun 30 03:57:54 when verizon has WCDMA .. i wanted to punch him Jun 30 03:58:07 verizon has WCDMA? Jun 30 03:58:17 EV-DO yes, I didn't know they had WCDMA Jun 30 03:58:34 yeah.. that is what vcast runs on, afaik Jun 30 03:58:53 I thought that was EV-DO? Jun 30 03:58:59 I guess vcast could run on both Jun 30 04:00:09 hmm might be.. now that i am looking at their wiki page Jun 30 04:00:21 let me find where i saw WCDMA listed for verizon Jun 30 04:00:40 is there any planned 3G support? Jun 30 04:01:05 for the neo? I don't think so Jun 30 04:01:17 when fic announces more devices though, I believe there will be 3G support Jun 30 04:05:00 daMaestro: i am sure eventually on some future models 3g and better will appear Jun 30 04:05:09 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_mobile_phone_companies Jun 30 04:05:14 but probably to keep costs low 2.5g is as good as it gets for now Jun 30 04:05:24 802.11 has been added to the 02 Jun 30 04:05:31 There are something like 6 or 7 'faster than GSM' standards that are needed. Jun 30 04:05:46 Various frequencies/standards worldwide. Jun 30 04:05:49 for now gsm./gprs i0s a good baseline Jun 30 04:05:53 yeah Jun 30 04:05:54 hmm but that still doesn't list it Jun 30 04:06:04 and 'all in one' modules don't exist Jun 30 04:06:05 as its probably the most widely supported and implemented network layer Jun 30 04:06:07 oh well... i know they have it: http://giyf.us/verizon+wcdma Jun 30 04:06:10 and works just about everywhere Jun 30 04:06:12 (except japan) Jun 30 04:06:47 And US Jun 30 04:06:53 Some of US Jun 30 04:06:54 gsm works in the usa Jun 30 04:06:59 and most of india Jun 30 04:07:00 well reasonable chunks of it Jun 30 04:07:01 IIRC Jun 30 04:07:07 and india too Jun 30 04:07:13 thats just a matter of coverage of certain networks Jun 30 04:07:15 But the rest is fine. Jun 30 04:07:20 also the usa usea a different frequency Jun 30 04:07:29 raster: yeah, except for all the lame boonie places(where for some reason I tend to end up in) Jun 30 04:07:46 summatusmentis: i dont go there Jun 30 04:07:46 :) Jun 30 04:07:52 actually i try and avoid the usa if i can Jun 30 04:08:14 the security at airports and level of mistrust of innocent travellers just pisses me off Jun 30 04:08:19 lol Jun 30 04:08:31 u just fly THROUGh the usa Jun 30 04:08:35 on the way to somewhere else Jun 30 04:08:37 like brazil Jun 30 04:08:42 and u have to go thru immigration Jun 30 04:08:48 and they give u the 3rd degree of Jun 30 04:09:02 "why are you here - are you coming here to work? why the fuck should we let you in?" Jun 30 04:09:05 do we expect most carriers to give the openmoko platform a bit plan? Jun 30 04:09:13 when all i want to do is get onto the next airport and the hell out of there Jun 30 04:09:13 :) Jun 30 04:09:27 daMaestro: hell no Jun 30 04:09:29 its an open phone Jun 30 04:09:33 u think carriers LIKE that? Jun 30 04:09:37 raster: don't get me started... it's all because bush is a war hungry conservative pig. Jun 30 04:09:41 But I'm not gonna go there :-) Jun 30 04:09:54 summatusmentis: i didnt even begin down that road Jun 30 04:10:00 just sticking to the facts Jun 30 04:10:03 not the "why's" Jun 30 04:10:03 lol, I'm aware Jun 30 04:10:04 :) Jun 30 04:10:11 i've read that most prepay services wont allow you a bit plan.. and i was warned that with tmobile.. you don't get data access plans with "unlocked" phones Jun 30 04:10:13 there was a time when u travelled to the usa Jun 30 04:10:25 u were greeted wityh a smile Jun 30 04:10:30 and a "welcome to the usa" Jun 30 04:10:34 (script) openmoko-community: Sean Moss-Pultz Re: New Oceans Jun 30 04:10:34 but anyway, GSM does work relatively well in most of the country Jun 30 04:10:46 with a few perfunctory stamping of your passport Jun 30 04:10:47 etc. Jun 30 04:10:50 daMaestro: tmobile won't let you do a data plan? :-( Jun 30 04:10:52 aaah Jun 30 04:10:56 better days Jun 30 04:10:57 :) Jun 30 04:11:26 summatusmentis, this was also from a person that was calling it G3 Jun 30 04:11:57 daMaestro: oh, I guess it'd depend on who you're talking to Jun 30 04:12:12 summatusmentis, it was mentioned that you don't get any data access on the prepay networks Jun 30 04:12:25 daMaestro: if nothing else, you get a cheap phone, sign up for the $6 data on the handset plan, and http://wiki.howardforums.com/index.php/T-Mobile_Data use that to set it up on the neo Jun 30 04:14:03 interesting that u are worrying about all of this Jun 30 04:14:11 paulproteus is gonna be trying that soon-ish, and I'm hoping that works out :-) Jun 30 04:14:12 raster: ? Jun 30 04:14:15 and you havent even seen an openmoko runing yet :) Jun 30 04:14:31 summatusmentis, wait.. what? Jun 30 04:14:41 summatusmentis, $6 ... but WAP only? Jun 30 04:14:55 looks like it might be wap only... I don't know Jun 30 04:15:00 is wap bad? Jun 30 04:15:56 raster: lol, that's true... it's called planning ahead Jun 30 04:16:04 hehehe Jun 30 04:16:23 maybe we should focus on gettign somethign that just can do any data at all over a network (other than 802.11) Jun 30 04:16:28 and make and recieve calls and sms's Jun 30 04:16:54 and get things like main menu, address book, virtual kbd etc. etc. etc. etc. Jun 30 04:16:54 all working usably and stabilly Jun 30 04:16:56 summatusmentis, WAP is a very limited protocol Jun 30 04:16:57 at a speed that is acceptable Jun 30 04:17:08 summatusmentis, you basically have to hit the carriers gateway of the WAP protocol Jun 30 04:17:22 a web browser that is fast and decent (possibly webkit based) Jun 30 04:17:23 etc. Jun 30 04:17:23 most sites on the internet don't support WAP Jun 30 04:17:34 wap's dead Jun 30 04:17:39 it was almost still-born anyway Jun 30 04:18:06 raster: well, I'm not really a dev, just a lurker who's excited Jun 30 04:18:07 :-P Jun 30 04:18:14 but look.. carriers still use WAP Jun 30 04:18:29 summatusmentis, http://giyf.us/define:WAP Jun 30 04:18:39 daMaestro: I guess that's fair, so a blackberry plan or something is what we'd need? Jun 30 04:19:01 summatusmentis: aaah Jun 30 04:19:08 stay as far away from "blackberry" services as you can Jun 30 04:19:20 well my aim for now is to get e17 up on my neo Jun 30 04:19:29 brew something of a usable ui Jun 30 04:19:32 :) Jun 30 04:19:50 raster, nice Jun 30 04:19:58 daMaestro: from what I've seen, 'blackberry' services are the only other option for most carriers. It's that, wap, or a pc card Jun 30 04:20:14 its usable on my n800 Jun 30 04:20:16 raster, i've got the qemu-neo1973 packages for fedora... not tested yet Jun 30 04:20:25 and frankly the n800 and neo are give or take not dissimilar Jun 30 04:20:28 except for screen res Jun 30 04:20:35 raster: will it be usable w/ fingers? Jun 30 04:20:42 i just hate that brand. Jun 30 04:20:44 summatusmentis: hell no Jun 30 04:20:48 everything is too small Jun 30 04:20:49 * summatusmentis is hoping to use the stylus as little as possible Jun 30 04:20:49 :) Jun 30 04:21:14 it does look like i get to setup a proxy system Jun 30 04:21:19 but that is no big deal Jun 30 04:21:34 i've already got one running on a 100mbit port Jun 30 04:21:52 for now my major concern is if it runs at a decent speed Jun 30 04:22:01 need to se how the new 16bpp engine fares Jun 30 04:22:12 the 02 and above will have gfx accel of some sort Jun 30 04:22:14 daMaestro: setting up a proxy system... how does that work? Jun 30 04:22:16 so thats another kettle of fish Jun 30 04:22:44 well.. so i can circumvent any carrier transit restrictions... Jun 30 04:22:49 daMaestro: I mean, I know how a proxy works, but you're still paying for data on the cell provider right? Jun 30 04:22:54 yes Jun 30 04:23:24 so.. you could in theory use the $6 plan, then just switch where it points to(the proxy, as compared to wap)? Jun 30 04:23:31 doubt it Jun 30 04:23:50 WAP is "you use our WAP server to request to WAP servers" Jun 30 04:23:50 lol Jun 30 04:23:53 afaik Jun 30 04:24:11 erm... what? Jun 30 04:24:32 it's not really IP transit Jun 30 04:24:38 summatusmentis, http://giyf.us/define:WAP Jun 30 04:24:48 I read that already :-P Jun 30 04:25:21 ok.. it is not really IP transit.. you can't go to www.myrandomsite.com Jun 30 04:26:03 it is a stupid system designed to run on existing networks.. it basically shows you how little the carriers want to support high bitrates Jun 30 04:26:16 that's bothersome Jun 30 04:26:29 i'm glad raster has inferred it should go away Jun 30 04:26:53 what will go away? Jun 30 04:26:55 wap? Jun 30 04:26:57 WAP Jun 30 04:27:06 i'm amazed its still there Jun 30 04:27:12 wml is crap Jun 30 04:27:24 frankly if telcos like it or not Jun 30 04:27:32 mobile networks WILL become just data pipes Jun 30 04:27:42 people will pay for their access much like dsl Jun 30 04:27:45 in the end Jun 30 04:27:53 and u will just be punting packets around Jun 30 04:27:57 sadly.. that "end" is a long ways away Jun 30 04:28:00 thats the future (imho) Jun 30 04:28:04 idk.... they'll fight that in the US kicking and screaming Jun 30 04:28:06 oh.. it should be Jun 30 04:28:08 mayaswell prepare for it now Jun 30 04:28:14 summatusmentis: they will Jun 30 04:28:14 or we should all revolt Jun 30 04:28:17 i hate telco Jun 30 04:28:22 but they will lose Jun 30 04:28:28 summatusmentis, you have no idea Jun 30 04:28:43 summatusmentis, i've been in that industry..... (fly on the wall engineer kinda person) Jun 30 04:28:52 daMaestro: really? Jun 30 04:28:59 lucky enough to mingle with all the business people Jun 30 04:29:08 they'll stab you in the back for a buck Jun 30 04:29:24 I'm a bit young to remember how the landline telcos fought the internet coming onto their networks Jun 30 04:29:26 yeah, i did a lot of systems engineering consulting in the US Jun 30 04:29:52 the problem is "the internet" is pushing it Jun 30 04:30:02 i suspect with the future benig less subsidies on phones Jun 30 04:30:07 as costs come donw more in making them Jun 30 04:30:10 raster, the real problem is that in the US... we focused on long haul Jun 30 04:30:18 australia for example pretty much has droped subsidies for phones Jun 30 04:30:29 the telcos there now go "bring your own phone thanks" Jun 30 04:30:36 so u pay "full price" Jun 30 04:30:37 raster, and the telcos are going to sit back and get fat for awhile... they have done so by buying up competetion and loosing money hand over fist Jun 30 04:30:43 and telco hands u a sim card and account Jun 30 04:30:59 once the teclos dont control the handsets via subsidies Jun 30 04:31:11 the phone makers will push harder with more features to win business Jun 30 04:31:14 (and lower costs) Jun 30 04:31:35 the gov. is gonna have to step in and force the cell telcos to give open access to the networks Jun 30 04:31:39 and those features will probably be all the imaginative ways of using data on a network Jun 30 04:31:43 raster, well.. in JP.. you guys did a good job of dealing with last mile networks Jun 30 04:31:52 raster, here in the US .. we are still developing out last mile networks Jun 30 04:32:07 "last mile" ? Jun 30 04:32:07 landline-wise for internet and phone - yes Jun 30 04:32:17 raster, and i don't see *any* carrier getting serious and bupkiss (anything) until 4G ... or even 5G is viable Jun 30 04:32:19 high speed networking in jp is dirt cheap Jun 30 04:32:27 $40/month gets u 100mbit fibre Jun 30 04:32:31 has done so for years Jun 30 04:32:31 summatusmentis, litterally.. the last mile Jun 30 04:32:32 now Jun 30 04:32:37 raster, yes.. i know Jun 30 04:32:43 daMaestro: true Jun 30 04:32:50 and then we have more and more 802.11 hotspots appearing Jun 30 04:32:59 not to mention the "looming threat" of "wimax" Jun 30 04:33:00 daMaestro: the boonie areas I mentioned earlier? :-P Jun 30 04:33:14 i susoect presure will go on the telcos to be more open via competition Jun 30 04:33:14 summatusmentis, no.. even in metro areas Jun 30 04:33:20 it will first happen in the cities Jun 30 04:33:24 thats life Jun 30 04:33:24 summatusmentis, it is the "last mile" to the actual CPE Jun 30 04:33:30 i'm thinking about upgrading my modem should i spring for one of those 56k? or get another 33.6? Jun 30 04:33:37 mobile phones didnt work ooutside of cities when they first apepared Jun 30 04:33:41 :P Jun 30 04:33:47 ansivirus, lol Jun 30 04:33:56 daMaestro: no idea what CPE is either :-) don't worry about it Jun 30 04:34:10 summatusmentis, customer premise equipment Jun 30 04:34:21 summatusmentis, how you... as a customer... interact with the network Jun 30 04:34:29 I see Jun 30 04:34:40 and the last mile is the circut between the CPE and the LEC Jun 30 04:34:44 and most cases it is the CLEC Jun 30 04:34:49 Local exchange carrier Jun 30 04:35:01 which has mainly boiled back down to the baby bells Jun 30 04:35:07 * daMaestro pukes just a little Jun 30 04:35:13 I see Jun 30 04:35:25 clec = corporate local exchange carrier Jun 30 04:35:30 daMaestro: is there a way to get data on a pre-paid plan w/ tmo? Jun 30 04:35:39 summatusmentis, i hope so Jun 30 04:35:47 summatusmentis, that is my plan for the phase 1 device Jun 30 04:35:57 phase 2 i might pull a contract Jun 30 04:36:30 well, if it's reasonable(like the sidekick $1/day) I'll probably do that for GTA02 Jun 30 04:36:49 I'm weighing options, as I'll be in 56267(zip) in august, and needing a new phone Jun 30 04:37:01 probably go tmo nationwide voice plan Jun 30 04:37:22 unless i can't get data when I'm 'roaming' Jun 30 04:38:49 raster, any comments on what you think the likelyhood of being able to tunnel voip over a data plan? Jun 30 04:39:18 basically, i want to try it when i'm on a prepay account... i was warned that they will flat out turn you off and keep your money if you do voip over their data networks Jun 30 04:40:16 if they notice lots of 2-way hevy data trafficde Jun 30 04:40:21 they might suspect you Jun 30 04:40:28 if u tunnel it over a vpn of your own Jun 30 04:40:29 and encrypt Jun 30 04:40:32 they cant KNOW Jun 30 04:40:34 they can just suspect Jun 30 04:40:38 as its opaque data to them Jun 30 04:40:44 they only know when the data is moving Jun 30 04:40:48 and how much in and out Jun 30 04:40:57 yeah... i was going to vpn it Jun 30 04:41:19 i have a tap device i can attach to on one of my servers (at a really, really nice DC) Jun 30 04:41:22 but read the agreement specifics Jun 30 04:41:28 they may not have to prove it Jun 30 04:41:39 if they simply dont like your data usage patterns they could shut u off Jun 30 04:41:41 dont know Jun 30 04:41:49 most i have read state "if you really use what you are paying for, we will turn it off" Jun 30 04:42:08 "network abuse" is cited Jun 30 04:42:14 they give u unlimited bandwidth Jun 30 04:42:20 like a all you can eat buffet Jun 30 04:42:25 the assumption is you will use less Jun 30 04:42:28 and most people do Jun 30 04:42:30 on average Jun 30 04:42:48 people who sit all day ddownloading/uploading data are massive outliers in their scheme Jun 30 04:42:51 and will be cut off Jun 30 04:43:04 they probably expect bursts of traffic for "web page loading" Jun 30 04:43:14 and the odd "lets play a 5 minute clip from youtube" Jun 30 04:43:16 etc. Jun 30 04:43:23 so u need to make your data usage look like that Jun 30 04:44:19 gday Jun 30 04:44:55 raster, what about irc over vpn? Jun 30 04:45:13 raster, what is your opinion of what the carriers will think of that? Jun 30 04:45:50 raster, i might even just do ssh to a server with a irssi screen session... but yeah Jun 30 04:46:29 btw.. i think the iPhone will have one positive effect.. it will show the carriers that a HIGH SPEED network is a viable system Jun 30 04:46:45 other then that.. it is just vender lockin Jun 30 04:48:23 irc will be fine Jun 30 04:48:25 imho Jun 30 04:48:38 really low bandiwdht and packet count Jun 30 04:48:40 sporadic Jun 30 04:48:49 things like irc and im should be fine Jun 30 04:48:51 over a vpn Jun 30 04:48:56 if u do it open on their network Jun 30 04:49:01 they can block with ports/ip's Jun 30 04:49:08 though irc will proabbly be ignored Jun 30 04:49:15 ad most peole dont know what it even is Jun 30 04:49:23 and use "msn" or "aim" etc. Jun 30 05:34:11 raster, cool.. i think the same Jun 30 05:34:28 god DAMN monotone is slow Jun 30 05:35:04 what are you rendering/viewing? Jun 30 05:37:15 monotone Jun 30 05:37:24 it took 5 and a half hours to run the build on my opty 165... didn't even get 1x cpu util :P Jun 30 05:37:25 the thing that is behind openembedded's repo stuff Jun 30 05:37:50 mtn: 26.0 M | 2.0 M | 10,473/24,100 | 2,584/5,962 Jun 30 05:37:59 itsd been going for an hour Jun 30 05:38:02 just gettign updates Jun 30 05:39:11 * daMaestro wonders if anyone is running fedora ? Jun 30 05:40:08 does anyone use qemu-neo1973 (to be more general) Jun 30 05:40:09 ? Jun 30 05:43:26 i just spun it up but screwed up calibration ;) Jun 30 05:43:36 is there a way using the 'buttons' to force a recal? Jun 30 05:45:14 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Wishlist:Games]] Jun 30 05:45:45 happycube, just curious how did you screw up? Jun 30 05:47:23 i clicked on the qemu to change focus during calibration Jun 30 05:48:09 happycube, try reflashing Jun 30 05:49:07 ok Jun 30 05:50:46 might be good to have a press+hold to force a recalibration Jun 30 05:51:07 maybe something that could bring up a system menu ala c+a+d on winnt? Jun 30 05:52:48 soooo.. how do i use qemu-neo1973 Jun 30 05:52:53 ;-) Jun 30 05:53:09 i used the mokomakefile instructions Jun 30 05:53:20 daMaestro, you got the build ready, using the mokomakefile is the easiest way to go Jun 30 05:53:38 Sup3rkiddo, http://rafb.net/p/PV5PGI60.html Jun 30 05:53:42 Sup3rkiddo, i packaged it up Jun 30 05:54:03 Sup3rkiddo, just want to test it before i submit it to the fedora build system (for review/inclusion in the distro) Jun 30 05:54:10 i used make build-qemu, make flash-qemu-local, then make run-qemu (with x forwarded to laptop) Jun 30 05:55:10 yeah.. well i'm trying to make that *very* easy for fedora users Jun 30 05:55:23 so i can poke our dev community more about working on openmoko Jun 30 05:55:39 daMaestro, nice... Jun 30 05:55:57 i just have no idea how to run it ;-) Jun 30 05:55:57 lol Jun 30 05:56:16 i guess i need to read the makefiles Jun 30 05:56:19 it'd be pretty easy to package up what you need to run openmoko, but for development more's needed Jun 30 05:56:21 daMaestro, heh, how about reflashing the image and stuff Jun 30 05:56:32 you're basically building an entire distro - by necessity - inside your native one Jun 30 05:56:51 and it takes 20 hours in my box Jun 30 05:57:01 what do you have? Jun 30 05:57:10 amd athlon xp Jun 30 05:57:10 Sup3rkiddo, happycube and the goal of a binary is that it is *prebuilt* Jun 30 05:57:17 so you just yum install xyz... and you are off Jun 30 05:58:18 daMaestro, you got the qemu thingy built, but where is the flashed image (did i get the term right?) Jun 30 05:58:27 openmoko.bin and stuff Jun 30 05:58:34 ahhh.... yes i need to generate those too Jun 30 05:58:54 qemu-neo1973-firmware ? Jun 30 05:58:55 daMaestro, i suggest you take a look at the makefile, then you are on Jun 30 05:59:05 qemu-neo1973-image .. i dunno Jun 30 05:59:07 daMaestro, je suis un n00b Jun 30 05:59:18 give me a moment ... Jun 30 05:59:42 i'll throw it at my build sys... Jun 30 06:01:58 hmm the package needs an update too.. 2344 is old Jun 30 06:03:19 has anyone written lua based apps for openmoko? Jun 30 06:03:46 daMaestro, way old Jun 30 06:03:48 :P Jun 30 06:04:15 hrms Jun 30 06:04:25 hmm it seems i should just include a patched download.sh and flash.sh Jun 30 06:04:29 my moko boots only in usb-console mode Jun 30 06:04:40 i've heard lua mentioned a lot on the lists. do y'all think this will be the standard scripting lanugage for openmoko? Jun 30 06:04:43 not networking so I cant flash Jun 30 06:05:12 i'm reading up on it some at the moment, but never really used it before Jun 30 06:06:04 actually considering buying a book, but i don't want to be the only one :P Jun 30 06:07:36 * daMaestro works to generate a patch for download.sh and flash.sh ... just yuck Jun 30 06:07:53 maybe i should just include predownloaded images? Jun 30 06:09:47 how often do kernel, uboot, and rootfs change? Jun 30 06:10:05 daMaestro, often, rootfs especially Jun 30 06:10:27 hmm then it is worth *not* including prebuilt shiet Jun 30 06:11:19 yup, i didnt want to hurt your feelings :P Jun 30 06:12:47 i don't want to maintain pushing out updates every day Jun 30 06:13:48 not to mention some of the updates can break accidently Jun 30 06:16:00 Sup3rkiddo, do you have a comment on how often download.sh and flash.sh might change? Jun 30 06:16:11 (aka break my patches) Jun 30 06:16:51 daMaestro, not that often i guess, better ask someone senior about this Jun 30 06:19:20 a "lua based app" wouldnt be able to do much Jun 30 06:19:27 as u dont have any gui toolkit Jun 30 06:19:33 u in fact have almsot no api's to use Jun 30 06:19:38 you would be very limited Jun 30 06:19:47 generally lua is an EXTENSION language to an existign system Jun 30 06:19:53 that provides apis to manipulate that system Jun 30 06:19:56 eg web browser Jun 30 06:19:56 wm Jun 30 06:19:58 file manager Jun 30 06:20:05 other gui or back-end system Jun 30 06:20:14 that could do with the ability to customise by "programmable logic" Jun 30 06:24:17 daMaestro: what about having programs that download given image to given directory and then command to run those images? Jun 30 06:24:57 raster, i thought there are gtk bindings Jun 30 06:25:05 daMaestro: I guess you have looked at Qemu page? you probably want to take scripts from there instead of MokoMakefile Jun 30 06:25:06 peepsalot: there might be Jun 30 06:25:17 but its definitely not the usual way to do things Jun 30 06:25:27 in general lua doesnt have a lot of bindings Jun 30 06:25:46 its probably an excellent replacement for a lot of shell scritps tho Jun 30 06:25:46 * aloril wonders what it would take to have FSF blessing for OpenMoko (current images should be OK, no proprietary blobs in there) Jun 30 06:26:01 aloril: does it matter? Jun 30 06:26:02 :) Jun 30 06:26:25 raster: for many it seems to matter (and would give extra publicity) Jun 30 06:26:45 openmoko is open as such Jun 30 06:26:50 well with the new gps unit Jun 30 06:26:56 so in practice its all there Jun 30 06:27:04 just missing some official blessing Jun 30 06:27:16 raster: though I guess it doesn't make sense to seek anything like that before GPS chip communication has been reverse engineered Jun 30 06:27:28 doesnt matter Jun 30 06:27:38 thats being fixed with an open gps driver and chip Jun 30 06:27:44 gta02 will have one? Jun 30 06:27:45 raster: new GPS unit? Jun 30 06:27:48 yes Jun 30 06:27:49 nice Jun 30 06:28:02 so as of the 02 (which is now official) its 100% open Jun 30 06:28:02 how does that new GPS unit compare? Jun 30 06:28:08 well except the gsm core Jun 30 06:28:11 raster, what do you think would be the simplest GUI toolkit to learn which could be compatible with openmoko? Jun 30 06:28:22 but thats a whole computer system on the other side of an at-command-set speaking "modem" Jun 30 06:28:23 :) Jun 30 06:28:27 or bluetooth firmware or wifi firmware ;-) Jun 30 06:28:33 peepsalot: for me - EFL of course :) Jun 30 06:28:48 aloril: all of it is open - apparently Jun 30 06:28:50 oh hehe, you're that guy :) Jun 30 06:28:59 but those don't count, use can't upgrade any of those (bluetooth, wifi and gsm firmware) Jun 30 06:29:19 yeah, this channel has lots of celebrities ;-) Jun 30 06:29:28 aloril, basically.. i am patching download.sh and flash.sh to work standalone Jun 30 06:29:37 raster, so that would be in C though? Jun 30 06:29:44 indeedily Jun 30 06:30:00 though there are now python bindings Jun 30 06:30:21 ruby too Jun 30 06:30:25 but me Jun 30 06:30:28 i'll stick to my c Jun 30 06:30:29 :) Jun 30 06:30:54 raster: I mean bluetooth and wifi chipsets probably have their own flash which has closed firmware (but this is not visible or upgradable to user), all kernel side is completely GPL (no binary blobs even) Jun 30 06:31:15 i'm just trying to find if there is something that I can create guis without a whole lot of low level programming. Jun 30 06:31:36 aloril: i dont know. Jun 30 06:31:43 see sean's "new oceans" mail Jun 30 06:32:03 doesn't have to be the most efficient thing around, just something for rapid development of proof of concept Jun 30 06:32:13 don't know about bluetooth, but I remember somebody (mickey?) saying that wifi has its own flash Jun 30 06:32:20 peepsalot, there is python Jun 30 06:32:25 http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/announce/2007-June/000013.html Jun 30 06:32:49 so pygtk would be a good route to go? Jun 30 06:33:01 or phyefl Jun 30 06:33:01 :) Jun 30 06:33:07 pyefl Jun 30 06:33:20 but u'd have to build all of efl and the pyhton bindings for your moko Jun 30 06:33:28 peepsalot, or pyclutter, ;P Jun 30 06:33:55 Sup3rkiddo, what is that? Jun 30 06:34:30 peepsalot, clutter is a new GUI toolkit, still in infancy afaik Jun 30 06:34:48 http://www.clutter-project.org Jun 30 06:35:24 efl is kickass too Jun 30 06:35:53 take your pick Jun 30 06:35:58 it really depends Jun 30 06:36:02 1. what the app is going to do Jun 30 06:36:06 2. what kidn of gui u want Jun 30 06:36:08 too many choices Jun 30 06:36:08 3. how fussy you are Jun 30 06:36:14 4. what you already knwo and are used to Jun 30 06:36:16 * peepsalot goes back into seclusion Jun 30 06:36:21 lol Jun 30 06:36:22 5. what kind of performance u expect/want Jun 30 06:37:31 well the prob is i don't know anything as far as guis are concerned. i have no idea where to begin Jun 30 06:37:42 re #4 Jun 30 06:38:04 you want to do this on your pc/desktop? Jun 30 06:38:08 or openmoko? Jun 30 06:38:22 well, i am in the openmoko channel... ;-) Jun 30 06:38:31 ok Jun 30 06:38:32 first Jun 30 06:38:37 i suggest u do guis on your desktop Jun 30 06:38:42 forget openmoko Jun 30 06:38:47 just learn how to create them Jun 30 06:38:53 how "event driven" programs work Jun 30 06:39:00 (i.e callbacks from your widget toolkit) Jun 30 06:39:05 and keep in mind: Jun 30 06:39:11 1. on the moko you will have no keyboard input Jun 30 06:39:29 2. you have 1 mouse button with a mous poitner than only moves when mouse button 1 is pressed Jun 30 06:39:38 3. you only have 480x640 to play with - so use it wisely Jun 30 06:39:39 gah... all this relative path shit needs to go away Jun 30 06:39:40 lol Jun 30 06:39:59 other than that Jun 30 06:40:10 u have done most of the work then on your pc in a much easeir development environment Jun 30 06:40:11 yeah, that was sort of my plan to just make something that runs on my comp first. but i wanted to learn something that I can apply to openmoko later without learning anotehr language/library/whatever Jun 30 06:40:19 "porting" to the moko should be childs play Jun 30 06:40:35 its the "open moko" Jun 30 06:40:36 its OPEN Jun 30 06:40:39 for ex, AFAIK i wouldn't want to learn qt... Jun 30 06:40:42 anything can apply Jun 30 06:40:43 yup... that's the beauty of moko... you can port *anything* if you want and it'll fit Jun 30 06:40:46 u just need to build and install it Jun 30 06:40:46 :) Jun 30 06:40:56 wanna hack dosbox to run and write the sw in dos? you could. Jun 30 06:41:04 of course you need to make decisions on size and heaviness Jun 30 06:41:06 *sw under dos Jun 30 06:41:10 for exmaple if u want to make a "kde app" Jun 30 06:41:15 and use al the kde apis in c++ Jun 30 06:41:21 you will need to port over most of kde Jun 30 06:41:22 ohhh, dos? int 13h? Jun 30 06:41:24 my fav Jun 30 06:41:26 c++ libs and utils Jun 30 06:41:27 etc. Jun 30 06:41:28 qt Jun 30 06:41:31 and that will get quite fat Jun 30 06:41:55 i was half-joking... but you can do pretty much any paradigm that'll work on a 266/400mhz arm and 128mb ram Jun 30 06:42:04 so you might want to stick to somehting that will already ship (eg gtk) or something else that will likely be smal to put on anyway Jun 30 06:44:26 "you will need to port over most of kde": see that's my point, i am trying to pick the path of least resisitance. I'm not interested in poritng a bunch of crap to openmoko, i want to use what works, and only have the responsibility of writing/porting MY app. Jun 30 06:44:55 then for now writign it in c + gtk will be the best Jun 30 06:45:02 u wont have to port anything but your app Jun 30 06:45:29 i intend to get efl on my moko soon Jun 30 06:45:35 so that may be an option in future Jun 30 06:45:49 i've always wanted a phone i can hack the whole ui of Jun 30 06:45:49 :) Jun 30 06:46:31 will the efl stuff run in matchbox et al, or will it have it's own window manager, etc? Jun 30 06:46:51 :) Jun 30 06:47:23 it can Jun 30 06:47:28 u can write apps that work in any wm Jun 30 06:47:32 efl is just a set of libraries Jun 30 06:47:37 counter_msg (last update 2007-06-30T06:42) http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter 60% for P1 in Jun 30 06:47:37 aloril changed counter prefix message to (last update 2007-06-30T06:42) http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter 60% for P1 in Jun 30 06:47:39 to do graphics, events, widgets, etc. Jun 30 06:47:56 has someone thought of porting nethack....it will be awesomestirrific Jun 30 06:47:58 enlightenment is a wm Jun 30 06:48:04 and i intend to replace matchbox on my neo Jun 30 06:49:21 i really loved the way enhance used my glade files, so have a few things in mind Jun 30 06:49:39 gtk + c just seems like a PITA to write though Jun 30 06:49:53 Sup3rkiddo: codewarrior is working on evolve Jun 30 06:49:59 its a glade clone for efl/etk Jun 30 06:50:07 raster, cool Jun 30 06:50:18 * Sup3rkiddo has been away from efl and e for a while Jun 30 06:50:44 but i heard that you guys prefer ewl against etk Jun 30 06:50:53 i am agnostic Jun 30 06:50:58 i dont favor either side Jun 30 06:51:09 2 philosophies on the same concept Jun 30 06:51:13 unliek gtk vs qt Jun 30 06:51:21 we dont pay a massive price for 2 toolkits Jun 30 06:51:32 because 70% of the toolkit is shared within efl Jun 30 06:51:35 unlike qt/gtk Jun 30 06:51:44 yeah, gtk guys will find etk a breeze... Jun 30 06:51:57 that is the strength of etk Jun 30 06:52:01 hmm... surprising that nethack is not listed at: http://www.openembedded.org/filebrowser/org.openembedded.dev/packages Jun 30 06:52:06 ewl has a different view of the world and is trying to be cleaner Jun 30 06:52:13 raster, how is the porting of efl comaing along? Jun 30 06:52:16 coming Jun 30 06:52:34 peepsalot: dunno- should just be a "compile the shit" effort Jun 30 06:52:39 its sitting on my n800 Jun 30 06:52:47 http://www.rasterman.com/ Jun 30 06:52:56 http://www.rasterman.com/files/e17-n800-1.jpg Jun 30 06:53:00 http://www.rasterman.com/files/e17-n800-2.jpg Jun 30 06:53:05 http://www.rasterman.com/files/e17-n800-3.jpg Jun 30 06:53:29 it was as easy as "make" Jun 30 06:53:32 done Jun 30 06:53:32 :) Jun 30 06:53:33 built Jun 30 06:53:45 i wonder what it'll take to get n770 running oe (and angstrom) Jun 30 06:53:46 openmoko uses openembedded Jun 30 06:53:54 whihc is a bit trickier than scratchbox for development Jun 30 06:53:58 i'm going on vacation and i got a 770 from woot i can brick ;) Jun 30 06:54:00 but in principle there should be no problems Jun 30 06:54:22 raster, i take it that the current builds have all that icons as well? Jun 30 06:54:47 which icons? Jun 30 06:54:51 desktop? Jun 30 06:55:05 raster, yup Jun 30 06:55:11 yerah Jun 30 06:55:19 i enabled the filemanager desktop icons a few weeks back Jun 30 06:55:25 was working on it Jun 30 06:55:30 aw... Jun 30 06:55:31 filemanager kind of works atm Jun 30 06:56:27 nice.. i've made good progress Jun 30 06:57:04 raster: I assume that your Neo1973 will soon have fluid interface? ;-) Jun 30 06:57:13 fluid? Jun 30 06:57:34 raster: fast GUI Jun 30 06:57:38 ooh Jun 30 06:57:40 well Jun 30 06:57:43 i guess so Jun 30 06:57:44 so, how long does qemu-neo1973-img create -b $^ -f qcow2 $@ normally take? Jun 30 06:57:48 i need to do some work on e Jun 30 06:57:54 so it will always maximise windfows Jun 30 06:57:55 for example Jun 30 06:58:00 it seems to be using 100% of one of my cores... so 3.2GHz x86_64 Jun 30 06:58:14 daMaestro: took a few minutes Jun 30 06:58:51 this patch is going to be nasty... i delete a lot of stuff Jun 30 06:58:52 lol Jun 30 07:01:15 http://dev.damaestro.us/openmoko-scripts.patch Jun 30 07:02:31 grrr Jun 30 07:02:33 ./flash.sh: line 96: 30482 Terminated $qemu -mtdblock "$flash_base" -kernel "$1" -serial stdio -nographic -usb -monitor null 0<&0 Jun 30 07:02:33 U-boot failed to finish writing in 300 seconds, giving up. Jun 30 07:03:21 daMaestro, try updating your build Jun 30 07:06:03 darn.. was kinda hoping i could make these scripts solid and then update the package Jun 30 07:06:07 anywho.... doing so now Jun 30 07:06:12 i want to write a touch-pad-lock program. a lock for the touch screen that emulates a combination lock Jun 30 07:07:04 peepsalot, use the mokolibs for the GUI then, for consistency Jun 30 07:07:48 are mokolibs written yet? Jun 30 07:08:39 peepsalot, yeah sort of they are in trunk/target/OM-2007 Jun 30 07:10:29 is there any proper documentation for them? Jun 30 07:11:23 peepsalot, no not yet, check the apps that use the code, like openmoko-dialer for instance Jun 30 07:11:56 does the finger wheel work? Jun 30 07:15:24 YO YO fellow moko nuts Jun 30 07:15:55 try translate that into Japanese muawahahaha Jun 30 07:16:28 Sean Moss-Pultz: "OpenMoko is the anti-iPhone." http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1895,2152759,00.asp Jun 30 07:17:05 Linux_Galore, you just gave me an idea to start my own line of junk snacks named moko nuts Jun 30 07:17:16 I dont think it is wise to promote a negative as a positive to be honest Jun 30 07:17:30 Sup3rkiddo: lol Jun 30 07:17:45 こんいちは私のモコナツ Jun 30 07:17:48 :) Jun 30 07:17:48 moko nuts for when you need some serious YO! Jun 30 07:18:32 or the ultimate hackz0r food...satisfies all your carb requirements Jun 30 07:18:59 clogs your arteries and makes your heart bigger as you code Jun 30 07:19:13 it will be shaped just like the neo, and will be frosted..mmm Jun 30 07:19:37 I just updated to Gutsy release 2 Jun 30 07:20:00 and we will get sean and harald to star in the ads :P Jun 30 07:20:04 because my hardisk went to were all dead hardisks go, binary heaven Jun 30 07:20:14 heh Jun 30 07:21:05 the first revolution to free your junk food is here Jun 30 07:21:17 FOSS snacks Jun 30 07:22:34 FOSS Snacks, because we beleive in the four freedoms of food Jun 30 07:23:24 I must admin moko nuts does roll off the tongue Jun 30 07:23:29 admit* Jun 30 07:23:42 gah, you made me hungry Jun 30 07:24:08 I aim to please Jun 30 07:24:32 Moko nuts "because they roll of the tongue" Jun 30 07:24:35 yeah and theres nothing to eat in my house Jun 30 07:24:43 thats nice Jun 30 07:24:56 ..and clog your butt" Jun 30 07:25:00 lol Jun 30 07:26:13 it true, last time I ate 1/2 Kg of chashews and I swear it felt like passing a brick 3 hours later Jun 30 07:26:25 ewww Jun 30 07:26:52 my dad said I forgot to drink the magic ingredient "beer" Jun 30 07:26:55 translation by google of what raster said (as Japanese): It is dense, it is to be, as for the [chi] my [mokonatsu] Jun 30 07:27:07 Linux_Galore: :) Jun 30 07:27:21 as Chinese: This is us!! The private Sentence コ ナ ツ Jun 30 07:27:22 ;-) Jun 30 07:27:41 heh Jun 30 07:34:45 * juri_ buys a nokia 770. Jun 30 07:44:34 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Introduction]] [[FAQ]] [[IPhone]] Jun 30 07:59:17 juri_: dont, its too resourced starved and the display isnt very clear, get a N800 Jun 30 07:59:35 unless the n700 is being sold for like $50 Jun 30 07:59:43 N770* Jun 30 08:00:22 mosno, hello ;-) Jun 30 08:00:32 linux: $140. worth it. Jun 30 08:00:49 anyone know a carrier that would support the openmoko in AU? Jun 30 08:00:51 daMaestro: heya Jun 30 08:00:55 its a dev platform anyways, i'm not going to really be using it. Jun 30 08:01:48 daMaestro: works for me on Vodaphone right now. I expect it will work on any of the 2G carriers. Jun 30 08:01:57 rwhitby: sweet, i'm with optus Jun 30 08:02:12 * mosno kicks his sony ericson Jun 30 08:02:32 mosno, you can use the openmoko Jun 30 08:02:32 there is no whitelisting of SIMs on GSM networks in Australia as far as I know. 3G is a different story. Jun 30 08:02:33 !! Jun 30 08:02:44 mosno, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optus Jun 30 08:03:06 GSM/GPRS network in all states* Jun 30 08:03:11 juri_: yeah $140 is pretty cheap Jun 30 08:03:25 daMaestro: http://youtube.com/watch?v=jldQ7Z-LawQ Jun 30 08:03:26 mosno: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.) Jun 30 08:03:27 what's going on with 3g? Jun 30 08:03:29 :P Jun 30 08:03:32 ps. thanks Jun 30 08:03:45 happycube: chipsets Jun 30 08:03:49 daMaestro: dont watch it, just listen Jun 30 08:03:53 lol Jun 30 08:03:53 hehe, funny faq answer ;-) Jun 30 08:04:48 happycube: or a better answer is wait till early 08 for the GTA02 and see what happens Jun 30 08:05:13 /usr/bin/openmoko-flash: line 96: 4292 Terminated $qemu -mtdblock "$flash_base" -kernel "$1" -serial stdio -nographic -usb -monitor null 0<&0 Jun 30 08:05:14 U-boot failed to finish writing in 300 seconds, giving up. Jun 30 08:05:25 ok... failed again with the updated trunk Jun 30 08:07:20 Good ol David Bowie song Jun 30 08:08:35 qemu-neo1973-system-arm -M neo -m 130 -mtdblock openmoko-flash.base -kernel u-boot-gta01bv4-r10_9912121f7ed804ea58fd62f3f230b5dcfc357d88_0_2270.bin -serial stdio -nographic -usb -monitor null Jun 30 08:08:38 that is what it is running Jun 30 08:10:55 any ideas? Jun 30 08:11:16 good morning Jun 30 08:20:58 http://rafb.net/p/UE4o9B25.html anyone know if there is something wrong here? Jun 30 08:21:43 should i just give the flash longer then 300 seconds? Jun 30 08:33:12 Linux_Galore: yup, that's the one Jun 30 08:33:47 Linux_Galore: sometimes puts me in a mood such that listening to it then returning to regular commercial radio causes panic attacks :) Jun 30 08:36:42 mosno: I havent listened to comercial music radio now in over two yeahs, I mainly listen to podcasts or my weird eclectic music collection Jun 30 08:36:51 years* Jun 30 08:37:47 Linux_Galore: listen to triplej! Jun 30 08:38:28 abc/triplej have really good podcasts too Jun 30 08:40:23 Agrajag-: they are boring too Jun 30 08:41:30 Agrajag-: the only thing I listen to from JJJ is Dr Karls podcast from Thursday morning Jun 30 08:42:05 heh yeah that's a good one Jun 30 08:42:42 I listen to a few BBC and ABC radio podcasts Jun 30 08:42:56 I do lie I listen to two JJJ podcasts Jun 30 08:44:00 I also listen to Sunday Night Safran, he always drags in the weirdos Jun 30 08:44:06 ok.. well i have given qemu-neo1973-system-arm -M neo -m 130 -mtdblock openmoko-flash.base -kernel u-boot-gta01bv4-r10_9912121f7ed804ea58fd62f3f230b5dcfc357d88_0_2270.bin -serial stdio -nographic -usb -monitor null 600 seconds.. and it still failed Jun 30 08:44:51 err * timed out * Jun 30 08:48:33 grrr i don't want to let this beat me Jun 30 08:48:33 lol Jun 30 08:48:57 i am slightly distracted.. however: http://koji.fedoraproject.org/koji/packageinfo?packageID=4446 Jun 30 08:49:05 safran rocks Jun 30 08:49:19 Linux_Galore: which eclectic stuff Jun 30 08:57:52 mosno: well I have a mix of classical Russian composers and then some Jaz 1920-50's and 60's-90's rock then I may go nuts and listen to japanese Techno Punk Jun 30 08:59:05 good example of japanese punk -> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g80kfYYHHrc Jun 30 08:59:39 latest mail in my spam box reads "You won an openmoko phone " [-) Jun 30 09:00:12 no way! Jun 30 09:00:36 lol Jun 30 09:01:53 counter Jun 30 09:01:53 (last update 2007-06-30T06:42) http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter 60% for P1 in a week, 2 days 02:58:02 (9.124±1.0 days) (1651;242) Jun 30 09:01:59 empty_mind: think about it, if you were Apple and trying to make the openmoko disapear from the web wouldnt making the word "openmoko" a spam trigger be wise heh Jun 30 09:02:16 well it happened Jun 30 09:03:09 i am yet to receive iphone spam though Jun 30 09:03:20 I ordered the whole Polysic collection on line, god i must be nuts Jun 30 09:03:21 why would apple care Jun 30 09:03:21 the iphone target market basically doesnt care about neo Jun 30 09:03:23 anyone tried iphone btw ? Jun 30 09:04:26 empty_mind: pretty hard considering its "not on sale yet" Jun 30 09:05:28 true, if I had a hankering to pick a phone that competes with the iPhone I would point at some of the new HTC phones Jun 30 09:06:17 Linux_Galore, then you should see this http://www.engadget.com/2007/06/29/apple-iphone-vs-lg-prada-separated-at-birth-part-2/ Jun 30 09:06:39 Linux_Galore, wasnt iphone going to be on sale from 29th june ? Jun 30 09:06:44 htc mobile demo -> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gj8PMcvYTZo Jun 30 09:07:12 empty_mind: yeah but LG Prada is actually an older pre 3G phone Jun 30 09:07:30 empty_mind: I would wait for what LG throw out later this year Jun 30 09:07:41 * empty_mind wonders why would someone need a mobile phone ? Jun 30 09:08:12 ouch! htc is sexy Jun 30 09:08:20 I must admit the HTC mobile/pda is pretty amazing, to be honest it snots on the iPhone Jun 30 09:08:22 empty_mind: i like to throw mobile phones at trolls Jun 30 09:08:44 mosno, mind throwing one on me ? Jun 30 09:08:55 empty_mind: oh, are you a troll? Jun 30 09:09:11 empty_mind: like how it changes menus (HTC phone) Jun 30 09:09:32 mosno, i would become one, if you are willing to throw phone Jun 30 09:09:40 Linux_Galore, yup Jun 30 09:10:34 empty_mind: the way the menu system works though as you see in the video isnt too good though Jun 30 09:10:44 ie the sms section Jun 30 09:11:18 s/works though/works/ Jun 30 09:11:59 Linux_Galore, provided i use the lowest and cheapest mobile phoen available in India, any navigation is good for me Jun 30 09:13:11 empty_mind: heh, Im lucky the company pays for my toys Jun 30 09:14:14 Linux_Galore, i used to have moto linux phone. Then i got bored of these toys Jun 30 09:15:12 'toys' ? It's quite cool to me :) Jun 30 09:25:29 http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/NS5522906532.html mhh mobilephone with lan and ata port? Jun 30 09:25:33 that'd be neat ;) Jun 30 09:26:18 i'd prefer 512/512 ram/flash instead :p Jun 30 09:26:31 I'd prefer both (; Jun 30 09:26:44 why ata? Jun 30 09:27:13 mhh make it a real computer in your pocket ;) Jun 30 09:27:24 the lan is more useful than the ata i guess Jun 30 09:27:25 Hahaha :) Jun 30 09:27:38 but ethernet connector is big Jun 30 09:27:51 i suppose you could have some small scale adapter for it Jun 30 09:27:52 and carrying another cable is useless Jun 30 09:28:09 another thing I'll lost in 2 days :p Jun 30 09:28:43 you could then use gta02 as access point lol Jun 30 09:28:50 :) Jun 30 09:28:54 ok.. well i just let the flash run for 30 minutes.. and it just sat there Jun 30 09:29:05 so if any of you openmoko gurus could help me that would be awesome: Jun 30 09:29:07 http://dev.damaestro.us/openmoko/ Jun 30 09:29:37 * daMaestro Zzzzzzzzzzz Jun 30 09:36:15 buz, good phone Jun 30 09:36:34 ? Jun 30 09:36:58 buz, the linuxdevices link you posted Jun 30 09:37:12 i dont think it's a phone? Jun 30 09:40:40 hi Jun 30 09:40:51 counter Jun 30 09:40:52 (last update 2007-06-30T06:42) http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter 60% for P1 in a week, 2 days 02:19:03 (9.097±1.0 days) (1652;242) Jun 30 09:40:53 :D Jun 30 09:42:57 * * OM Bug 622 has been created by yoyo(AT)ghost.pl Jun 30 09:42:58 * * mtd-utils-native Jun 30 09:42:59 * * http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=622 Jun 30 09:57:24 give it informationen how much the GTA_02 cost in euro? Jun 30 09:57:53 !google 450 usd in eur Jun 30 09:57:54 450 U.S. dollars = 334.373607 Euros Jun 30 09:59:46 yeap Jun 30 10:00:25 but still, over seas dollar==euro basically Jun 30 10:05:39 webjames: i hope :D Jun 30 10:05:54 but i think Basheri is right :/ Jun 30 10:08:49 i hope i'm wrong =) Jun 30 10:09:00 335 euro would be a great price ;) cheaper as my actually phone w800i ^^ Jun 30 10:09:15 Basheri: yes of course ;) Jun 30 10:10:39 yeap, 335 would be awesome, since i'm prepared to pay over 100 euros more Jun 30 10:15:09 Basheri: my first price informationen was 350 Dollar = 350 euro Jun 30 10:15:40 as expected Jun 30 10:15:50 i hope that the price will be convert to euro. So is the phone almost cheap to other phones on the market Jun 30 10:16:29 up to 400 euro is almost normal ;) Jun 30 10:17:42 !g 300 usd in eur Jun 30 10:17:44 300 U.S. dollars = 222.915738 Euros Jun 30 10:27:29 :) Jun 30 10:27:55 * LuitvD hopes that with shipping added to that it's less then 250... Jun 30 10:28:03 (guess that's not really possible...) Jun 30 10:29:49 If they are shipping from germany or something :\ Jun 30 10:30:58 Saying 200$ = 200 would be crazy, a 25% increase in price... Jun 30 10:31:12 I really hope that the way to get neo doesn't favor people in the US Jun 30 10:34:53 LuitvD: that would be great :p Jun 30 10:35:06 The Neo will probably be cheaper than an K800i or Nokia E61 in norway. Jun 30 10:35:18 :O Jun 30 10:35:37 LuitvD: how much is vat in .nl? Jun 30 10:36:13 Basheri: considering it's being manufactured in China, and the company making it is in Taiwan, and the people writing the software are in Germany, I doubt that shipping it will favour the US. Jun 30 10:36:51 rwhitby: great =) Jun 30 10:37:25 Unlike the iPhone of course ;-) Jun 30 10:39:19 yeap Jun 30 10:40:12 Viko: depends on how nice the customs are Jun 30 10:40:29 but in the usa, you have to get that fucking contract with iphone... Jun 30 10:40:58 Depend on where they ship the product Jun 30 10:41:00 there's really no need for that kind of language ... Jun 30 10:41:15 :O Jun 30 10:41:26 ok sorry :DDD Jun 30 10:41:41 hmm, this is new to me :P Jun 30 10:45:28 Vegar: I included moms :) Jun 30 10:45:48 didn't know that swearing is a forbidden thing Jun 30 10:45:50 I always forget about moms Jun 30 10:46:27 So including mva (25%): 3,375 NOK Jun 30 10:47:05 in october yes. Jun 30 10:51:03 Basheri: more like impolite Jun 30 10:51:49 aloril: oh :O great fill words =) Jun 30 11:31:28 I'm having some trouble with the MokoMakeFile. When it gets to compiling coreutils it defines 'futimens', but it is already defined as something else in /usr/include/sys/stat.h Jun 30 11:36:14 (script) openmoko-community: Sean Moss-Pultz Re: New Oceans and 1 other mails Jun 30 11:37:32 wtf, lol all my code just became GPLv3 Jun 30 11:37:50 now I will have to sue myself Jun 30 11:38:02 :-P Jun 30 11:44:13 http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/NS6228340866.html Jun 30 11:44:34 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Wish_List_-_Hardware]] [[Buying_Interest_List]] Jun 30 11:57:14 counter_msg (last update 2007-06-30T11:55) http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter 60% for P1 in Jun 30 11:57:14 aloril changed counter prefix message to (last update 2007-06-30T11:55) http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter 60% for P1 in Jun 30 11:57:38 ^ From Taiwan: First week in OpenMoko Jun 30 11:58:02 (or direct link: http://jouston.no-ip.com/archives/000225.html ) Jun 30 11:58:40 yeh, i had dependency problems (monotone depended on older packages than the ones found from gutsy's repos, but i solved that by manually compiling the newest version of monotone) Jun 30 12:00:05 well.. from today onward everything that I have copyright over and is licensed under GPL is now dual licensed GPL2, GPL3 (or later) Jun 30 12:01:34 (script) openmoko-community: Sean Moss-Pultz Re: Yes, there's GPS (Re: What, no GPS?) and 1 other mails Jun 30 12:02:59 looks like almost apparent confirmation of later 3G models ;-) Jun 30 12:03:43 \o/ Jun 30 12:04:15 wow sean is posting to the list Jun 30 12:04:20 well.. it was excepted, so no real surprise ;-) Jun 30 12:04:43 YAY! Jun 30 12:05:20 expected Jun 30 12:05:28 excepted would be uhm bad Jun 30 12:05:44 aloril: yeh, but confirmations are always great Jun 30 12:06:52 well, it was 'confirmed' by another OpenMoko person month ago (as you can see from counter page) Jun 30 12:06:54 (script) openmoko-community: Sean Moss-Pultz Re: Minor correction Jun 30 12:07:54 he is catching up on mail Jun 30 12:12:33 hi laforge Jun 30 12:13:05 which list is this? Jun 30 12:15:26 community Jun 30 12:15:28 hi harald Jun 30 12:15:41 Nothing new. Jun 30 12:16:21 hm can some with a moko-toolchain test, if ipcs from utils-linux works? Jun 30 12:16:30 SpeedEvil: well.... I'm pretty new to reading lists, and am not signed up for any, just reading archives Jun 30 12:17:31 summatusmentis: list was mentioned: "(script) openmoko-community..." ;-) Jun 30 12:17:46 anyway, no real new info there Jun 30 12:18:18 aloril: lol, I guess it was... thanks Jun 30 12:28:46 does perl-native compilation fail for anyone else? Jun 30 12:42:35 Hardware questions: Is the LCD interface on the Neo a simple parallel one, 18 or 24 bit wide, with some clocks? Or is it more complex. And is 'slow mode' on the CPU implemented? Jun 30 12:43:10 I'm wondering about gluing a PSP display on. Jun 30 12:45:09 does psp have touchscreen? Jun 30 12:45:15 No. Jun 30 12:45:25 It'd also need to have additional controls. Jun 30 12:46:40 well im sure you can attach a psp as an external monitor trhough the usb plus some power or using the i2c :/ (you shouldn't consider my thoughts that much heh) Jun 30 12:47:36 Umm - no. Jun 30 12:47:58 *through Jun 30 12:48:03 man, superwaba works Jun 30 12:48:25 cool Jun 30 12:48:47 Basically. The PSP display is around $50 Jun 30 12:48:52 (ebay) Jun 30 12:49:21 uhm but no touchscreen? Jun 30 12:49:22 Or $100 for the actual brand-name one from sharp. Jun 30 12:49:38 I'm also idly wondering about SAW. Jun 30 12:49:54 what good would it do? Jun 30 12:50:13 attaching the psp display Jun 30 12:50:16 (surface accoustic wave - to make it act as a touchscreen) Jun 30 12:50:43 Basically, it's not so much for use as a phone. Jun 30 12:50:53 if you want a bigger screen, i'd look for maybe the one in the giant htc thing Jun 30 12:51:01 5" vga iirc Jun 30 12:51:14 More for - for example - a car computer panel. Jun 30 12:52:40 http://cgi.ebay.com/I028-LCD-Screen-Display-for-HTC-Universal-Dopod-900_W0QQitemZ260134068995QQihZ016QQcategoryZ39401QQrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD1VQQcmdZViewItem Jun 30 12:52:43 but it's pricey Jun 30 12:52:55 i want to mess with things like that, what would you advice me to start from? Jun 30 12:53:03 Yeah - the advantage of this thing would be it's cheap. Jun 30 12:53:12 If you can manufacture the cables. Jun 30 12:53:19 Like what? Jun 30 12:54:20 i think there's better options for car pc than neo Jun 30 12:54:26 Perhaps. Jun 30 12:54:57 It's more based on the fact that it's cheap and I have a datasheet and a soldering iron :) Jun 30 12:55:52 SpeedEvil dont you find the usb jack usefull for this job? Jun 30 12:55:59 No. Jun 30 12:56:12 http://cgi.ebay.com/HUGE-LOT-99-3-5-INCH-LCD-PANEL-REPLACEMENT-SCREEN-PARTS_W0QQitemZ230146682604QQihZ013QQcategoryZ41343QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem Jun 30 12:56:16 The LCD can (possibly) be directly connected, with a trivial cable. Jun 30 12:56:22 here, 99 tries for soldering ;) Jun 30 12:56:24 oh ok Jun 30 12:56:45 The USB jack is USB 1.1, you can't run any commodity 'USB-VGA' things Jun 30 12:57:04 is gta-02 getting usb2 host? Jun 30 12:57:09 No. Jun 30 12:57:23 :(( Jun 30 12:57:26 usb2 needs power right? Jun 30 12:57:34 Not that. Jun 30 12:57:45 USB2 tends not to be low power though. Jun 30 12:58:19 From memory - for example. Jun 30 12:58:41 A USB stick I have, I measured when it was in USB2 mode to take 50% more power than in 1.1 mode Jun 30 13:01:07 SpeedEvil, but it is as fast, that you can save much energy :) Jun 30 13:01:23 why is power an issue... Jun 30 13:01:36 if it's plugged in via us it can charge Jun 30 13:01:41 usb Jun 30 13:02:44 Because it's more power consuming to have a USB2 chipset. Jun 30 13:02:58 Also, more chip area, and hence more expense. Jun 30 13:03:08 only when it's on/active, surely Jun 30 13:03:21 Plus, it's not in the processors that are reasonable candidates. Jun 30 13:03:39 yes, only when it's active - the extra cost is still an issue though. Jun 30 13:03:45 ya Jun 30 13:05:43 SpeedEvil, well, for phase3 or so they maybe want to use Arm11 Cortex A8, that would be cool :) Jun 30 13:05:59 says who Jun 30 13:06:10 it's to find in the wiki Jun 30 13:06:14 It would be nice to have USB2 if it's not too expensive. Jun 30 13:06:32 (power, cost) Jun 30 13:07:05 * mjr got a newish panasonic pocket camera, high-end as the pocket models go; that didn't have usb 2 eitehr Jun 30 13:07:09 her Jun 30 13:07:34 That's because - generally - they implement the USB2 bit with a seperate chip. Jun 30 13:07:57 The processor they probably use has 1.1 built in - and that is free. Jun 30 13:08:05 USB1 is pretty fast already Jun 30 13:08:08 yeah, I figured that that would be the case Jun 30 13:08:17 Then you can get chips which are basically USB2 -> SD card interfaces Jun 30 13:08:22 and you wire that in parallel. Jun 30 13:08:32 I thought we'd just eliminated power as an issue SpeedEvil Jun 30 13:09:05 I'm explaining what currently happens in many portable devices. Jun 30 13:09:50 Or in some cases of course, the processor doesn't have USB1.1 Jun 30 13:11:50 I hooked a char-lcd to the GPIO pins on a soekris Jun 30 13:11:54 minimal soldering Jun 30 13:14:31 thomasg__: that is rumor/guess which very well could turn out to be wrong Jun 30 13:15:01 aloril, of course it could Jun 30 13:15:13 but a cortex would be definately nice Jun 30 13:15:38 it would beat down the xscales :) Jun 30 13:16:37 counter_msg (last update 2007-06-30T13:10) http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter 60% for P1 in Jun 30 13:16:37 aloril changed counter prefix message to (last update 2007-06-30T13:10) http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter 60% for P1 in Jun 30 13:16:48 (just added links to 3 Sean's mails) Jun 30 13:19:11 http://www.akihabaranews.com/en/en/news-13261-When+the+Korean+GOD+awake%2C+he+gives+us...+the+Samsung+Ultra+Smart+F700.html <- I really, really wished the Neo looked like that. Jun 30 13:20:30 Neo screen has three times the resolution. Jun 30 13:20:52 SpeedEvil: s:2D:2D/3D accelerator: (but you know this of course) Jun 30 13:21:00 (pixel amount) Jun 30 13:21:34 is the samsung a winmobile device? Jun 30 13:21:52 it looks kinda like a htc copy cat Jun 30 13:22:24 what is it with brown swooshes? That phone looks like it's running ubuntu or something Jun 30 13:22:31 Micro USB Connectivity Cable Jun 30 13:22:34 is this a typo? Jun 30 13:23:47 yeah Jun 30 13:23:56 is there any info on what the order process (for 01) will be ? Jun 30 13:24:14 i need that info too Jun 30 13:24:21 a if it's only going to be available in the US.. Jun 30 13:24:31 s/a/and/ Jun 30 13:24:32 ScaredyCat meant: and if it's only going to be available in the US.. Jun 30 13:24:36 only in .ua Jun 30 13:24:42 PBeck: yes, s/Micro/Mini/ Jun 30 13:24:48 ok thanks Jun 30 13:31:38 ScaredyCat: why would it only be available in the US? Jun 30 13:33:48 yeah, I think the most developers are NOT from the states Jun 30 13:34:25 aloril: in what context? Jun 30 13:34:45 well, as long they send if from taiwan or china its no problem for me, only the packaging fee's might be a bit expensive Jun 30 13:35:03 hum gta_02 in october => Massmarkt oder only the hardware? Jun 30 13:35:09 2007-06-30 00:13:19 galexande: Consider it. For that $150, you get accelerometers, 2D accel - which may mean better battery life as well as better video playback - a little more flash, and a faster CPU. Jun 30 13:35:14 hardware afaik Jun 30 13:35:23 ok Jun 30 13:35:34 2D graphic accel Jun 30 13:35:39 2d AND 3d Jun 30 13:35:50 It is? Jun 30 13:35:50 -"- Jun 30 13:35:51 and mpeg4 Jun 30 13:35:57 Yeah Jun 30 13:36:00 SpeedEvil, yes, the chip is OpenGL ES capable Jun 30 13:37:07 1.43M triangles per second, etc.. from http://www.smediatech.com/Glamo3370_DM.pdf Jun 30 13:37:11 doesnt mean we will have drivers Jun 30 13:37:20 Fun,. Jun 30 13:37:22 Yeah. Jun 30 13:37:24 thats the chip: http://www.smediatech.com/product3362.htm Jun 30 13:37:31 ah, aloril already has it, sry Jun 30 13:37:35 If they do the NDA thing, then that will suck. Jun 30 13:37:43 buz: from what Harald talked in Tossug video it does sound we will have drivers Jun 30 13:37:47 is 3362 identical to 3370 save for h264 Jun 30 13:37:50 Because it means that a small team at FIC has to implement everything. Jun 30 13:38:42 something like "mobile phones might have better FLOSS support for 3D in future than PC" Jun 30 13:38:44 mpeg4 at VGA and 30 fps! :) Jun 30 13:39:02 And if we see an unimplemented feature, we can't implement it as we have no hardware docs Jun 30 13:39:30 SpeedEvil: yeah, that is interesting question, NDA or no NDA ... Jun 30 13:39:31 I can't see the benefit of VGA over QVGA for video on the neo. Jun 30 13:39:48 not until we get vga or tv out, no Jun 30 13:39:49 Apart from using non-transcoded video Jun 30 13:39:50 SpeedEvil, well, we'll see :) Jun 30 13:39:55 SpeedEvil: sure? human eye might be able to detect difference Jun 30 13:40:03 I also think QVGA would be ok Jun 30 13:40:15 If you are in the habit of holding it at under 30cm from the eye. Jun 30 13:40:27 well, I am a HD-freak :) Jun 30 13:40:41 like small pixels and unique pixels ^^ Jun 30 13:40:53 SpeedEvil: its quite small screen (in absolute size) Jun 30 13:41:09 HD is obsolete already, long live SUPER-HD and EXTRA-SUPER-HD :p Jun 30 13:41:19 ynezz, hehe Jun 30 13:41:44 well, I do not own HD-ready hardware and shit like this, my PC is enough. what I wanted to say is, that I like superb quality Jun 30 13:42:19 Cut a 2.8" rectangle of the appropriate size. Jun 30 13:42:22 my PC is HD-ready :] Jun 30 13:42:48 Hold it up at normal distance against your HDTV screen. Jun 30 13:42:58 SpeedEvil, I see it like you Jun 30 13:42:58 And see how little of it it covers. Jun 30 13:43:15 there's just NFW you need 285dpi for video Jun 30 13:43:27 (and i'm the first to buy the higehst res screen i can find) Jun 30 13:43:27 the pixel on a normal HD-ready tv is about 20 times bigger I guess Jun 30 13:43:44 my own transcription (which likely has small errors): "Definitely going to 3D and even more integration with all kinds of peripherals. It needs time but actually having quite good success in getting number of hardware manufacturers to open specification/documentation. It might even happen that Linux mobile phones might have more open graphics than most desktop systems." Jun 30 13:43:50 (from http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter#Talk_by_Sean_Moss-Pultz_and_Harald_Welte_2007-06-06_.28updated_2007-06-07.29 ) Jun 30 13:43:54 But the distance is much higher - you've got to take into account the viewing distance. Jun 30 13:44:17 thats right Jun 30 13:44:28 "might even" is a careful saying, though Jun 30 13:44:53 well, we'll see Jun 30 13:45:07 mjr, seaon might not be able to see in the future :) Jun 30 13:45:08 mjr: yeah, good point Jun 30 13:45:23 and I say might, because I can't, too :) Jun 30 13:45:26 What bus is the graphic accel connected to? Jun 30 13:45:54 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Wishlist:Camera]] [[Wish_List_-_Hardware]] Jun 30 13:46:04 thomasg__: above was by Harald Welte Jun 30 13:46:12 ah, ok Jun 30 13:46:30 Sean is the more optimistic one ;-) Jun 30 13:46:38 however, sounds like we really get the chance to have good open graphics in our neo's :) Jun 30 13:47:11 I hope so. Jun 30 13:47:21 the same for me Jun 30 13:47:41 Doing the hammerhead reverse-engineering is comparatively trivial to reverse engineering functionality not present in closed drivers. Jun 30 13:47:50 but I really need to learn C. do not want to have a neo without being able to write software for it :) Jun 30 13:48:22 it would not make sense to have that chip and do only 2D ..I bet they can do 3D drivers too Jun 30 13:49:01 The FIC team may not have time/budget to exploit every possibility is what I mean. Jun 30 13:49:09 Even though they add the core functionality. Jun 30 13:49:21 aloril, sure they can. the question is: are they allowed to do open drivers Jun 30 13:49:40 Even open drivers are not a complete help. Jun 30 13:49:49 If they only implement some of the chips functionality. Jun 30 13:49:56 yeah, if they have to do free drivers themselves, I'd not expect them to take advantage of the whole thing on release Jun 30 13:49:58 thomasg__: I'm sure Harald Welte would not have used that chip if they could not open drivers Jun 30 13:50:20 * SpeedEvil points at the hammerhead. Jun 30 13:50:23 aloril, yeah, I also think that harald wouldn't like to sign a NDA for this Jun 30 13:50:34 at least mickey I think has stated here strongly that they wouldn't go closed graphics Jun 30 13:50:38 There is an existing NDA for that, and they haven't pulled it. Jun 30 13:50:44 SpeedEvil: latest rumors say that they are replacing hammerhead in GTA02 Jun 30 13:50:55 I really hope not. Jun 30 13:51:03 why? Jun 30 13:51:06 Unless it's with a similar chip. Jun 30 13:51:20 There are potential very nice features in the hardware. Jun 30 13:51:30 And the reverse engineering looks possible. Jun 30 13:51:33 'cause one gets more useful data out of the hammerhead than from some nmea-spouting chip Jun 30 13:51:34 thomasg__: well.. NDA is a bit different than closed driver Jun 30 13:51:40 given RE-success, of course Jun 30 13:51:53 Yeah. Jun 30 13:52:00 aloril, it is, but the problem is, like SpeedEvil said, that the open driver might only implement SOME features Jun 30 13:52:42 thomasg__: yeah, it might be very well be case that they can't disclose datasheet, only make open driver Jun 30 13:53:06 but I trust them enough to believe that they will have open driver for 2D/3D accel Jun 30 13:53:15 but we'll see what the future brings. for the first time it's enough for me having a really open phone :) Jun 30 13:53:54 SpeedEvil: yeah, I was thinking a bit similar, hh + reverse engineer might be even better than new chip + open driver from start Jun 30 13:54:28 I'm glad that harald is included in this project. that makes it much more reliable Jun 30 13:54:46 thomasg__, indeed Jun 30 13:54:54 * aloril nods to thomasg__ : he won't go with closed kernel module Jun 30 13:55:07 hmm is harald == reliability ? Jun 30 13:55:15 I know where this goes... Every time they release a new phone, i just have to buy it :P Jun 30 13:55:20 * aloril suspects closed GPS was brought into project before Harald ;-) Jun 30 13:55:45 Basheri, it doesn't seem too far-fetched, yeah... Jun 30 13:56:00 aloril yes seems so, the hardware came in from a other project Jun 30 13:56:03 empty_mind: he GPL violations guy ( http://www.gpl-violations.org/ ) Jun 30 13:56:05 empty_mind, yes, harald is well known in the free-software-world Jun 30 13:56:26 i know harald and i have met him couple of times Jun 30 13:57:40 fic should offer a subscription Jun 30 13:57:51 subscription? Jun 30 13:58:03 if you buy each phone released, you get 20% off or something Jun 30 13:58:11 :D Jun 30 13:58:19 empty_mind, so imho harald makes the project of a huge oem manufacturer much more trustable Jun 30 13:58:31 buz: they do - pay $450 per quarter and you get 4 phones a year :-) Jun 30 13:58:50 no discount then ;) Jun 30 13:59:45 buz, you can become a dealer/franchise of FIC, there by getting huge discounts or may be a free phone ;-) Jun 30 13:59:47 especially Harald's gpl-violations.org work is a huge trust bonus Jun 30 14:01:30 hey Jun 30 14:01:42 http://www.anandtech.com/printarticle.aspx?i=3026 Jun 30 14:01:42 white_gecko: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.) Jun 30 14:02:21 It should probably ignore that case aloril... Jun 30 14:03:00 SpeedEvil: yeah Jun 30 14:03:01 haha, "Ignore the slightly bent iPhone casing, we swear it came this way" Jun 30 14:03:13 ^ this is a link about disassambling apple bottleopener ^ Jun 30 14:03:35 nononoo, Neo is the only true bottle opener phone Jun 30 14:03:47 oh jes Jun 30 14:03:47 yes Jun 30 14:03:59 but the iPhone nothing more than a bottleopener Jun 30 14:04:03 damn snobs, just drink beer from cans Jun 30 14:04:04 SCNR Jun 30 14:04:08 but maby the edges are to round Jun 30 14:05:39 white_gecko, so what could it be used for? :) Jun 30 14:05:45 i dont know Jun 30 14:06:47 buz: well, in finland the cans are much more expensive Jun 30 14:07:51 Basheri, was it finland where the kids was drinking the liquid soap from public toilets because there's alcohol in it? :) Jun 30 14:08:07 lol Jun 30 14:08:12 around here, sadly cans are cheaper Jun 30 14:08:13 no joke Jun 30 14:08:18 thomasg__, I don't know, but might as well be Jun 30 14:08:21 not sure if it was finland or norway Jun 30 14:08:21 beer from cans tastes not as good Jun 30 14:08:26 I don't think the neo would open a bottle... Jun 30 14:08:41 thomasg__: Never heard of such thing :O Jun 30 14:08:56 Basheri, I heard from it some years ago :) Jun 30 14:09:30 heh :D Probably norway then Jun 30 14:10:27 norway has the highest rate of blindness in all of europe Jun 30 14:10:38 I like the beere from a bottle an its cheep here in germany I think Jun 30 14:10:39 At least it's not common phenomenon, since i havent heard of it Jun 30 14:10:42 it was in sweden Jun 30 14:11:02 Cheap beer in germany <3 Jun 30 14:11:22 <3EUR? you call 3 eur cheap? Jun 30 14:11:34 it had a very high amount of alcohol in it, so even if the taste was awful, they didn't have to drink that much of it to get wasted ;) Jun 30 14:11:41 omg, can't be that expencive :O Jun 30 14:11:45 *s Jun 30 14:12:13 in switzerland, cheapest beer is about 0.30EUR per 0.5l Jun 30 14:12:22 good beer in germany is around 0.50 eur Jun 30 14:12:32 that's great price Jun 30 14:12:33 Basheri: when you're underage and at the same place partying that can easily happen for many kids I think ;) Jun 30 14:12:52 Dvalin: ok :P Jun 30 14:12:53 mhh, good beer starts at 0.50 eur... you can easily pay more Jun 30 14:12:56 decent beer in India is about 2.5 eur :-) Jun 30 14:13:06 :O Jun 30 14:13:20 * drath adds india to his list of no-go areas ;) Jun 30 14:13:23 * Tm_T pays 3-6 € for one bottle of good beer Jun 30 14:13:42 * buz remembers san miguel on the philippines. good beer for ~0.5EUR in a bar ;) (0.33l) Jun 30 14:13:52 * drath adds wherever Tm_T lives to that list, too Jun 30 14:14:14 drath: haha, well I don't drink "normal" stuff anyway, and I drink that one bottle all evening (: Jun 30 14:14:15 i get decent beer for 0.4EUR, very good one for 0.8EUR Jun 30 14:14:20 well, it isn't that expensive for good beer Jun 30 14:14:30 depends if its in a shop or a bar Jun 30 14:14:42 for a shop its hideously expensive even by swiss standards Jun 30 14:15:03 in finland, it's around 10 euros for 12 bottles of some lame lager Jun 30 14:15:19 Basheri: yuh, that's exactly what I won't drink Jun 30 14:15:27 yeap Jun 30 14:15:30 * white_gecko copys the no-go list of drath Jun 30 14:15:30 hehehe Jun 30 14:15:59 well, people here only drink to get drunk, so... Jun 30 14:16:04 hah Jun 30 14:16:25 glad I don't have to do that Jun 30 14:16:27 12 bottles last one night Jun 30 14:16:46 ok i have to part now cu Jun 30 14:17:24 interesting fact: switzerland, land of the high prices, is about the only place where i ever found natural mineral water in 1.5l bottles for <0.20EUR ;) Jun 30 14:17:40 And many people go to estonia to buy cheap and strong booze Jun 30 14:17:52 alc % > 40 Jun 30 14:18:05 as for the hard stuff, i only drink scotch ;) Jun 30 14:18:52 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koskenkorva_Viina Jun 30 14:20:47 mhh how does that compare to vodka? Jun 30 14:20:49 (i hate vodka) Jun 30 14:21:26 it is not a true vodka Jun 30 14:21:30 but similar Jun 30 14:21:47 probably better quality Jun 30 14:22:20 oh its continous distillation Jun 30 14:22:25 not 200 step distilliation Jun 30 14:22:32 port wine anywone ? Jun 30 14:22:34 :D Jun 30 14:22:39 how can you hate vodka? Jun 30 14:22:42 madness Jun 30 14:23:04 tastes like cleaning solvent Jun 30 14:23:14 which it basically is Jun 30 14:23:40 buz, where are you from? Jun 30 14:23:55 south from you Jun 30 14:24:00 austria? Jun 30 14:24:09 "Kossu is at its best when it's cold, but can be also mixed for example with Coke (then it's called "Kossukola"), with Vichy water ("Kossuvissy"), orange juice ("screwdriver"), energy drink ("Kossu Battery") or certain (hard) salmiakki candies (Salmiakkikoskenkorva, Salmiakkikossu, Salmari)." Jun 30 14:24:18 the other south ;) Jun 30 14:24:26 counter Jun 30 14:24:27 (last update 2007-06-30T13:10) http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter 60% for P1 in a week, a day 21:35:28 (8.900±1.0 days) (1653;242) Jun 30 14:24:50 erm buz, I'm german, there is austria and switzerland :) Jun 30 14:25:08 now it's not austria so it's gotta be CH ;) Jun 30 14:25:34 near zurich FWIW Jun 30 14:25:48 ah, ok, because what you said about the water I thought you was there for some time, not your whole life :) Jun 30 14:26:15 mhh the formulation is a bit off, i admit ;) Jun 30 14:27:27 well, ok, the prices for water her go from 0.15 euro (1.5l) to 1.50 euro (0.75l) ^^ Jun 30 14:28:14 i admit i havent been shopping in germany for a long time Jun 30 14:28:16 and in the hotel I was before some weeks it was 4 euro for 0.75l ^^ Jun 30 14:28:34 aldi switzerland is about 0.15EUR too Jun 30 14:28:51 big chains slightly more Jun 30 14:30:03 another question: if you import a neo for $300 + $20 (transport fee's), how much would you pay taxes and so on in switzerland? Jun 30 14:30:28 7.6% vat Jun 30 14:30:34 should not have any customs on it Jun 30 14:31:19 its 19% vat here -.- Jun 30 14:31:47 but no customs, too Jun 30 14:31:52 unless you are very close to the border, i doubt getting it from switzerland would pay Jun 30 14:33:07 Flights can be very cheap. Jun 30 14:33:07 I'll be on a trip to austria in some weeks but not switzerland :( Jun 30 14:33:17 SpeedEvil, yeah, but not sooo cheap :) Jun 30 14:33:36 SpeedEvil: unless airport zurich is involved, yes Jun 30 14:33:43 hehe Jun 30 14:33:46 airport taxes in zurich are quite simply insane Jun 30 14:34:19 a flight between munich and berlin costs less than 50 euro Jun 30 14:34:32 the train ticket is more expensive Jun 30 14:34:35 even then, tax differential is much lower than that Jun 30 14:34:42 definateley :) Jun 30 14:35:24 but for more expensive things like notebooks, it sometimes does pay to shop here Jun 30 14:35:35 (also since we dont have the 14d return policy, shops can have lower prices) Jun 30 14:36:10 does anyone here uses fedora 7 ? Jun 30 14:37:16 buz, I bought a keyboard from japan, because including vat and shipping it was cheaper than here :) Jun 30 14:37:31 i quite often buy stuff from hongkong because of that Jun 30 14:37:49 thomasg__: but then u got a .jp kbd layout Jun 30 14:37:50 :) Jun 30 14:38:04 no raster, english (what a luck ^^) Jun 30 14:38:05 :) Jun 30 14:38:10 nice to see you here Jun 30 14:38:18 that was lucky Jun 30 14:38:25 i get my kbds from usa or australia Jun 30 14:38:31 so i can get a sane layout Jun 30 14:38:37 and i LIVe in japan Jun 30 14:38:40 I know Jun 30 14:38:51 hell Jun 30 14:38:59 i ordered my laptop from the oem in taiwan Jun 30 14:39:03 just to get a us kbd layout Jun 30 14:39:04 and I can't wait to have eem and e17 on my neo :) Jun 30 14:39:05 instead of jp Jun 30 14:39:09 that was an effort Jun 30 14:39:14 u wont see eem Jun 30 14:39:16 hehe Jun 30 14:39:18 but e17 will come Jun 30 14:39:28 right now oe is busy building half the universe Jun 30 14:39:35 yeah, I have seen the changes for the n800, might be very useful for the neo, too Jun 30 14:39:49 directly useful Jun 30 14:39:54 but thats just rendering code Jun 30 14:40:13 right now i'm more interested in adapting e17's layout management to be more "matchboxy" Jun 30 14:40:14 ie Jun 30 14:40:26 be able to place windows always 'mnaximized" Jun 30 14:40:27 fotr example Jun 30 14:40:48 (i speak loosely here - some windows like virtual kbd wont be - in fact i might add a vkbd to e) Jun 30 14:40:55 morlenxus and me was discussing that before some days Jun 30 14:41:22 there's already a vkbd module, but it doesn't work very well Jun 30 14:41:28 guess you know it Jun 30 14:41:33 actually i dont Jun 30 14:41:40 just a moment please Jun 30 14:41:49 but making one isnt too hard in principle Jun 30 14:41:55 and makign it work right is not hard Jun 30 14:42:01 the HARd bit is doing the feckin kbd layout Jun 30 14:42:06 so its usable Jun 30 14:42:08 it's name is eyboard :) Jun 30 14:42:16 adding in things like dictionaty word matching Jun 30 14:42:20 I could send you the tgz if you want Jun 30 14:42:25 guessing of captialisation att eh start of sentences/entries Jun 30 14:42:39 then making it wokr with a THUMBN Jun 30 14:42:40 the authors name is Sthitha Jun 30 14:42:42 (nto a stylus) Jun 30 14:43:10 hmm Jun 30 14:43:14 not in cvs i see Jun 30 14:43:26 it's external (and a very early version) Jun 30 14:44:51 google is not being helpful Jun 30 14:44:53 bugger Jun 30 14:44:55 oh well Jun 30 14:44:59 not important right now Jun 30 14:45:03 mybe it's on google code? Jun 30 14:45:19 i need to make e be able to DO more of a maximized layout (with optional floating dialogs) Jun 30 14:45:24 but like I said, I have the snapshot here if you want Jun 30 14:45:54 what we would need is that all windows are maximized by default and a good possibility to switch the windows. I guess the window list is not the best choise for the neo Jun 30 14:45:58 might take a look later Jun 30 14:46:00 keep it on ice Jun 30 14:46:15 yup Jun 30 14:46:22 got a good idea of what we need Jun 30 14:46:22 :) Jun 30 14:46:29 I'm in #e, too, just ask if you need it Jun 30 14:46:52 i just need to start on the lowe-hanigng fruit Jun 30 14:46:56 first is the layout code Jun 30 14:47:04 i'm tossing up as to what to do there Jun 30 14:47:04 I'll make some thoughts, too (but can't implement them ^^ as I'm not a coder :( ) Jun 30 14:47:14 but... Jun 30 14:47:16 now i think about it Jun 30 14:47:20 i just should put in hooks Jun 30 14:47:25 and let a module implement policy Jun 30 14:47:59 will you buy a neo on the 9th of july? Jun 30 14:48:05 no Jun 30 14:48:15 why would i do that? Jun 30 14:48:16 :) Jun 30 14:48:42 why do you have the n800? :) Jun 30 14:48:59 i laready have a neo sitting here Jun 30 14:49:04 soaking up my usb voltage Jun 30 14:49:05 bastard! Jun 30 14:49:06 :P Jun 30 14:49:13 *sigh* Jun 30 14:49:15 next to the n800 Jun 30 14:49:15 how did you get one? by FIC? Jun 30 14:49:22 *sigh* ^ 3 Jun 30 14:49:45 i am now keen to not just have e17 runing on the n800 and neo Jun 30 14:49:51 but make it work NICELY Jun 30 14:50:21 yes, how is the performance on the neo? Jun 30 14:50:31 dunno Jun 30 14:50:37 but i would bet about the same as the n800 Jun 30 14:50:45 hacking on the qemu is boring :( Jun 30 14:50:50 i'm still waiting for OE to build the world Jun 30 14:50:51 :) Jun 30 14:51:01 simply put Jun 30 14:51:04 raster: it failed at perl-native for me Jun 30 14:51:08 nowhere near a modern x867 desktop Jun 30 14:51:10 but decent Jun 30 14:51:21 ravan: it gfailed a few places Jun 30 14:51:29 for me it didnt like LD_LIBRARY_PATH being set Jun 30 14:51:44 and MAKEFLAGS was not happy being set to -j4 Jun 30 14:51:54 there is a 16bpp engine for the e-stuff right? Jun 30 14:51:54 ravan, some asm.h thing? Jun 30 14:52:10 NOTE: package libnss-mdns-0.9-r0: task do_configure: started Jun 30 14:52:12 up to there Jun 30 14:52:23 jeddy3: yes - recently started Jun 30 14:52:37 raster, nice Jun 30 14:52:43 specifically keeping in mind its for a LOCAL xserver (not remote over the network - it ONLY does shm) Jun 30 14:52:58 and it assumes u are willing to drop some quality in return for speed Jun 30 14:53:22 so its kind of assuming these high-res miniature screen u find on the neo andf n800 Jun 30 14:53:29 there is always the normal software_x11 enigne Jun 30 14:53:31 thats full 32bpp Jun 30 14:53:37 Sup3rkiddo: no. ../makedepend: 1: Syntax error: Unterminated quoted string in perl-5.8.7/x2p Jun 30 14:53:38 and looks gorgeos on my n800 Jun 30 14:53:44 as good as 32bpp Jun 30 14:53:49 as its ditheredf 16bpp Jun 30 14:53:51 but neo display is 16bpp right? Jun 30 14:53:59 well the output is 16bpp Jun 30 14:54:07 for software_x11 on these devices Jun 30 14:54:13 but all internal rendering in software is in 32bpp Jun 30 14:54:16 ravan: happy dash user. the current OE version uses perl 5.8.8 and has a dash fix... Jun 30 14:54:21 aah, got it now Jun 30 14:54:31 conversion to 16bpp is done at the end of rendering and is dont with dithering Jun 30 14:54:44 software_16 is rendering completely in 16bpp Jun 30 14:54:47 all the way Jun 30 14:54:56 thus u pay a quality pricve Jun 30 14:54:59 price Jun 30 14:55:03 nod Jun 30 14:55:17 its also not complete at all currently Jun 30 14:55:21 just enouhg to get startred Jun 30 14:55:29 and see if the 16bit engine is worth more effort Jun 30 14:55:33 so far it seems to be Jun 30 14:55:40 after an initial rocky start Jun 30 14:55:50 some of the improvments shoudl be moved to the 32bpp enigne too Jun 30 14:55:58 like arm prefetch asm macros Jun 30 14:57:35 WOW Jun 30 14:57:35 in the end it should make evas a direct competitor to SDL for games for handhelds Jun 30 14:57:37 huge channel! Jun 30 14:57:39 if not a preferred engine Jun 30 14:57:53 because u get a full "sprite" engine with scvaling and text and more Jun 30 14:57:54 for free Jun 30 14:57:57 hi all Jun 30 14:57:58 question Jun 30 14:58:07 raster, nice! Jun 30 14:58:07 when can I get one of these in Australia? Jun 30 14:58:08 and instant accel pipeline thru eithe xrender or gl enignes Jun 30 14:58:08 dav7: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.) Jun 30 14:58:08 :P Jun 30 14:58:14 should there be an accel path on the device Jun 30 14:58:38 tho right now xrender is the usual "abysmal" in performance Jun 30 14:58:41 * dav7 thinks aloril is quite funny if he IS a bot Jun 30 14:58:52 dav7: cyborg ;-) Jun 30 14:59:02 eh? Jun 30 14:59:17 ohhh Jun 30 14:59:20 lulz Jun 30 14:59:20 :D Jun 30 14:59:28 dav7: that FAQ link was triggered by script, this is typed Jun 30 15:00:06 yep Jun 30 15:00:26 http://www.rasterman.com/files/n800-engines.pdf Jun 30 15:00:36 dav7: you can order online from openmoko.com at 2007-07-09 (or you can wait several months to get locally (I suppose this will eventually happen)) Jun 30 15:00:38 thats a performancer comparison of the bits of the 16bit engine that work so far Jun 30 15:00:55 and software_x11 (32bpp in software with full 128x128 dither mask rendering down to 16bpp) and xrender Jun 30 15:01:00 2^8 nicks in this channel Jun 30 15:01:07 aloril: :D Jun 30 15:01:52 aloril: I'm in Australia and NOT a developer (say tweaker :D) and my main concern is whether it'll work with Australian networks. Jun 30 15:02:03 Even CDMA coverage is better then nothing for something like this :D Jun 30 15:02:04 I have an interesting sujestion. I lost my old phone and thought, now that this phone has a gps in it - why not make use of it... would it not be a cool thing to send it an sms with pre-defined content, and then subsequentially call it to tell you it's gps location?? i'm fairly sure, that google-earth can from then on give you a fairly good idea of where it is... Jun 30 15:02:14 dav7: it should - its gsm/gprs Jun 30 15:02:14 hi Jun 30 15:02:16 Hello Jun 30 15:02:17 raster: cool Jun 30 15:02:18 dav7: it works, already tested by one developer in Australia Jun 30 15:02:19 hey Jun 30 15:02:29 aloril: WOW COOL! Jun 30 15:02:29 hehe xrender is not a speed deamon excactly... Jun 30 15:02:33 ciacon: perfectly possible Jun 30 15:02:37 (GSM of course) Jun 30 15:02:38 ciacon: thats the POINT of an open phone Jun 30 15:02:50 ciacon: you want it to happen - go make it happen. pick up an editor and write code Jun 30 15:02:51 :) Jun 30 15:02:55 :D Jun 30 15:03:12 ^ fav mindset Jun 30 15:03:12 \o/ Jun 30 15:03:30 jeddy3: no - it SHOULD be at least about the speed of software_x11 Jun 30 15:03:41 and if accelerated - a LOT faster Jun 30 15:03:42 ciacon: yes or you could press buttons when you call it to get it speak its position or it could reply to your sms or ... Jun 30 15:03:50 raster, oh Jun 30 15:04:13 aloril: or better - be able to sms it a special msg then iot literally "calls home" on a predefined numebr Jun 30 15:04:17 raster: I thought haveing the thing itself would make mor scense to start working on an real-world example... I talk about calling it, because mine's a prepaid that rearly has cash on it ;-) Jun 30 15:04:21 so u can listen in on who has it and what they are doing Jun 30 15:04:51 there are soo many things possible :) Jun 30 15:04:52 ciacon: or just send an sms and the phone will lokc itself Jun 30 15:04:57 down to some minimally functional mode Jun 30 15:05:09 so it can only recieve calls and sms's Jun 30 15:05:09 or with some triggery you could even ssh into it over GPRS Jun 30 15:05:09 or just send a sms and the phone will destroy itself :) Jun 30 15:05:14 raster: I know why I want this phone ;-) Jun 30 15:05:16 and the ui simpy wont allow outgoing sms's and calls Jun 30 15:05:24 u can do just about anything u like Jun 30 15:05:28 thats the point of the project Jun 30 15:05:37 eventually some realyl good ideas and implementations will appear Jun 30 15:05:42 and i am sure if they are good and wel ldone Jun 30 15:05:47 or make it record position continuously to some server so you can see its trail Jun 30 15:05:50 they will even roll back into the mainline software for the phone Jun 30 15:05:56 so all users get the feature "out of the box" Jun 30 15:06:27 aloril: only if u have "unlimited" data plans :) Jun 30 15:06:36 * aloril has Jun 30 15:06:37 I'm looking forward to automatic profile switching, recording all calls automatically, syncing how I want, .. Jun 30 15:06:46 thomasg__: that means we need a new gen of the neo to come with the "C4" chip Jun 30 15:06:48 :) Jun 30 15:06:54 send it a signal Jun 30 15:06:55 I just keep on thinking, that I (as a student using prepaid) try to rule out the problem, that the phone can't answer, becaus it's out of money Jun 30 15:06:56 BOOM Jun 30 15:06:59 :) Jun 30 15:07:08 raster, so is it :) Jun 30 15:07:34 and before the exploiton it tells: All your base are belong to us! Jun 30 15:07:43 ciacon: you cant ANSWER a call if u run out of credit? Jun 30 15:07:50 or RECIEVE and SMS? Jun 30 15:07:57 sending i understand Jun 30 15:08:03 I can recieve sms/calls.. but the phone can Jun 30 15:08:15 thus u probably want to be able to remotely send an sms that has your phone sms you back info like # oif sms's left on credit Jun 30 15:08:16 't place call or send sms when out of credit Jun 30 15:08:22 and then u can decide if it should lock itself Jun 30 15:08:28 or start reporting gps location every 10 mins Jun 30 15:08:30 even if your SIM card is locked you can still receive calls Jun 30 15:08:32 or whatever Jun 30 15:08:46 and maybe you could remote dial the police Jun 30 15:09:03 thomasg__: i think being able to just tell the police Jun 30 15:09:09 "my phone is at this location" Jun 30 15:09:11 will work well Jun 30 15:09:12 and the coordinates would be enough, yes :) Jun 30 15:09:17 police in DE is not interested in automated mobiles phone calls ;-) Jun 30 15:09:22 tho chances are police will laugh and ignore you Jun 30 15:09:34 going with police to thief "I think you have my phone in your pocket, can you give it to me?" "No I don't" you mobile screams: "Help I'm stolen!" Jun 30 15:09:36 as they are unlikely to be interested in retrieving lost/stolen phones Jun 30 15:09:53 chances are u will need to do this for yoursself Jun 30 15:09:57 so be able to track where it is Jun 30 15:09:57 police in Ireland wouldn't know what to do with a set of coordinates Jun 30 15:09:59 raster, in germany they aren't interested in the coordinates, too... Jun 30 15:10:00 and go there to GET it Jun 30 15:10:28 ewon: well u';d weant that converted to a "183 jones st, blumville" Jun 30 15:10:37 with a nice gogle map pic Jun 30 15:10:38 etc. Jun 30 15:10:53 I know that germany's intelligence agency's are interested on imsi catchers... i was in a dev-team testing that sort of stuff;-) Jun 30 15:11:08 they'd love gps coordinates;-) Jun 30 15:11:12 Hello everybody Jun 30 15:11:14 careful now :) Jun 30 15:11:18 hi jouston Jun 30 15:11:27 I'd like to ask something Jun 30 15:11:27 I'm working for a mobile provider and some thiefs opened the car of a co-worker and took the phones with them. we located the phones using GSM and told the police the coordinates. they didn't do anything Jun 30 15:11:44 thomasg__: not surprising Jun 30 15:11:55 What is your favorite international shipping comany? Jun 30 15:11:56 thomasg__: rather sadening Jun 30 15:11:58 its not worth enough for the polic to bother getting off their fat arses Jun 30 15:12:01 To ship Neo Jun 30 15:12:02 :( Jun 30 15:12:11 maybe thats it Jun 30 15:12:18 they wont get some commendation badge for "pikcing up some stolen phones" Jun 30 15:12:19 :) Jun 30 15:12:29 jouston, FedEx does a good job, imho Jun 30 15:12:49 We have FedEx, UPS and EMS. What else needed? Jun 30 15:12:51 u want to be able to 1. disable the phone so it becomes useless to the thief Jun 30 15:12:57 just fedex Jun 30 15:13:02 2. be able to locate where it is so u can get it yourself Jun 30 15:13:06 oftne phones are not stolen Jun 30 15:13:09 but just left somewhere Jun 30 15:13:11 thats the good thing with them: you order, they deliver, doesn't matter where you are Jun 30 15:13:12 like in a taxi Jun 30 15:13:13 or bus Jun 30 15:13:32 Well. FedEx and UPS can't reach Argentina. Jun 30 15:13:37 they also pay the customs and vax and so on and you just need to give the deliveryman the money Jun 30 15:13:38 I think a standardized algorithm to have the phone spit out the gps coords is rather a security risk... Jun 30 15:13:39 And consequently stolen ... Jun 30 15:13:55 jouston, why not? Jun 30 15:13:58 Only EMS can deal with Argentina. Jun 30 15:14:13 ok, thats bad Jun 30 15:14:23 thomasg__: It is a long story. Basically they have a collaped custom. Jun 30 15:14:25 jouston: FIC have a developer in argentina Jun 30 15:14:27 i believe Jun 30 15:14:33 so there will be some way to ship it Jun 30 15:14:34 there Jun 30 15:14:38 raster: Yes, I heard this from Werner. Jun 30 15:14:47 And FIC no more, it is openmoko. Jun 30 15:14:55 true Jun 30 15:14:57 :) Jun 30 15:14:59 openmoko.com I mean. Jun 30 15:15:02 raster: ever thought about an eveas version of maemo-mapper? Jun 30 15:15:16 evas* Jun 30 15:15:37 can't you deliver them personally ;) Jun 30 15:16:03 ScaredyCat: I can do it if customer pay me. Jun 30 15:16:10 :) Jun 30 15:16:12 I heard a rumour that if you buy one of the Open Source phones, you have to let anyone who asks borrow it and make long-distance calls Jun 30 15:16:17 Per the requirements of GPLv3 Jun 30 15:16:19 lol Jun 30 15:16:45 evanpro: that's good joke. Jun 30 15:16:48 Also you have to text-message blueprints and source code to everyone you call Jun 30 15:16:50 Kaloz: maemo-mapper - havent' seen it Jun 30 15:16:56 clear Jun 30 15:17:07 maemo-mapper is pretty decent Jun 30 15:17:08 oops Jun 30 15:17:20 Although I think it uses non-free tiles that you download in some weird way Jun 30 15:17:42 hey raster, don't forget to tell me when e17 is running on your neo :) Jun 30 15:17:47 and please: pics! Jun 30 15:17:50 Hey so Jun 30 15:18:35 BB everyone.... i gtg... se you lot soon Jun 30 15:18:37 I've been thinking about this iPhoneDevCamp Jun 30 15:18:41 http://barcamp.pbwiki.com/iPhoneDevCamp <-- this Jun 30 15:18:51 It's really sad Jun 30 15:19:06 evanpro, why? Jun 30 15:19:19 koen: as long as i dont need to add the vector rendering of the maps... should be trivial with evas Jun 30 15:19:22 I guess if Apple didn't let people write Web apps (!), people would have a camp to see what music you could compose on the keypad Jun 30 15:19:41 hehe Jun 30 15:19:44 true :) Jun 30 15:19:45 pfft, webapps Jun 30 15:19:53 thomasg__: because it's such a closed platform Jun 30 15:19:57 what if you live in a country where mobile data costs a shitload? Jun 30 15:20:08 Anywho Jun 30 15:20:12 but well, this device is not more interesting to me than the uc in a microwave :) Jun 30 15:20:20 It got me to thinking: why not have an OpenMoKoCamp? Jun 30 15:20:26 ewon: only the rich have an iphone then Jun 30 15:20:28 OpenMoKoDevCamp? Jun 30 15:20:37 ewon: then the iphone is seen as a status symbol of being feckin wealthy Jun 30 15:20:43 or not knowing the value of money Jun 30 15:20:46 raster, did you see the plans and prices? Jun 30 15:20:47 :) Jun 30 15:20:58 thomasg__: have heard of them Jun 30 15:20:59 500/600$ for the device, 60-240$ per month -.- Jun 30 15:21:00 dont much care Jun 30 15:21:04 never gettign one anyway Jun 30 15:21:05 :) Jun 30 15:21:05 really sick Jun 30 15:21:09 the same for me Jun 30 15:21:14 I've written quite a decent prototype of my TargetPlot clone with superwaba, will try sticking it on one of palms later Jun 30 15:21:25 I was think synch up OpenMoKoCamp with LinuxWorld in August in SF Jun 30 15:21:30 Maybe the day after Jun 30 15:21:56 I don't know if the FIC people will be at LWCE or not Jun 30 15:22:00 But lots of hackers will be there Jun 30 15:22:06 and it'd be a great time to do a presentation Jun 30 15:22:06 openmoko now Jun 30 15:22:07 :) Jun 30 15:22:19 there is a standard joke about police not acting "There is thief in my garage" "We are too busy, can't come now" .. later rings again "No need to come anymore I dealt with him myself" .. soon.. many police cars ;-) Jun 30 15:22:23 raster: afaik the only vectors you need are the ones used to draw the tracks and routes Jun 30 15:22:33 aloril, lol Jun 30 15:22:39 koen: that'd be doable then Jun 30 15:23:05 but... no room on my todo list Jun 30 15:23:07 no time Jun 30 15:23:09 real life Jun 30 15:23:11 real jobs to do Jun 30 15:23:15 wm's to hack Jun 30 15:23:17 evas would be usefull for women-mode, where north isn't up, but your bearing is Jun 30 15:23:19 toolkits to write Jun 30 15:23:19 :) Jun 30 15:23:39 koen: u'd need rotation - evas doesnt have that (yet) Jun 30 15:30:16 hmmm e17 on the neo...yummie =) Jun 30 15:31:00 e17 on anything... yummie =) Jun 30 15:33:28 hehehe Jun 30 15:36:56 so there is a plan on getting some "wm", not eem, usable on the neo? ...not only libraries but something to replace matchbox and menus Jun 30 15:37:17 matchbox is good choice for such device Jun 30 15:37:19 from the e17 world that is Jun 30 15:37:36 * koen suspect most people don't realize what '285DPI, vga' means in real life Jun 30 15:37:42 yes, maybe not official, but Jun 30 15:37:58 jeddy3: yes. i wouldnt be happy ohterwise Jun 30 15:38:04 getting the libs to work is a no braer Jun 30 15:38:07 brainer Jun 30 15:38:09 just compile them Jun 30 15:38:20 koen: 2.8" vga 285dpi... compared to 8-10" vga which I have on desk.. Jun 30 15:38:30 koen: seeing is believing - i haven't seen it yet, so i have no real idea what it's going to look like Jun 30 15:38:37 its tiny Jun 30 15:38:42 pixels vanish Jun 30 15:38:46 hrw: vga + 285DPI is all the info you need Jun 30 15:38:51 anti-aliasing almost blurs away Jun 30 15:39:03 but u still can tell aa vs non-aa Jun 30 15:39:08 but its just so subtle at that dpi Jun 30 15:40:25 raster, ok sweet, looking on how nicely other "e" work is implemented, like eem and such, that makes me really excited Jun 30 15:41:37 eem wont Jun 30 15:41:40 it was only ever a demo Jun 30 15:41:53 but adding things to e17 to take over functionality like that Jun 30 15:41:56 will happen Jun 30 15:42:04 like "main menu" modules Jun 30 15:42:05 etc. Jun 30 15:42:14 hell Jun 30 15:42:22 there's already a filemanager in e17 Jun 30 15:42:29 :) Jun 30 15:42:29 its got the kitchen sink built in already Jun 30 15:42:30 :) Jun 30 15:42:45 aqnd its not as lean as matchbox Jun 30 15:42:46 for sure Jun 30 15:42:48 BUT Jun 30 15:42:56 it has tonnes more functionality Jun 30 15:43:06 and takes over the functions of a lot of "helper apps" that u run Jun 30 15:43:09 like panels Jun 30 15:43:16 launcher Jun 30 15:43:19 etc. etc. Jun 30 15:43:22 in 1 blob Jun 30 15:43:38 imho the most comon functions of your phone probably should be built into something like e Jun 30 15:43:43 or at leats something that is always runing Jun 30 15:43:48 so u dont have to wait for it to launch to use it Jun 30 15:45:54 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[IPhone]] [[Minimo/it]] [[Buying_Interest_List]] Jun 30 15:46:33 * zecke sees minimo and pukes Jun 30 15:46:35 ! Jun 30 15:48:14 the neo will need a good web browser Jun 30 15:48:19 that is not going to be a small feat Jun 30 15:48:32 indeed Jun 30 15:48:49 minimo is big Jun 30 15:49:01 webkit is c+= with no ui on top to control it as a browser Jun 30 15:49:09 dillo is.. well.. minimally usable Jun 30 15:49:10 raster: I'm working on WebKit/Gdk, so is alp Jun 30 15:49:13 i know - everyone is sick of hearing about ihpone...but it's safari looks reaaally nive Jun 30 15:49:15 opera is closed and u need to license it Jun 30 15:49:17 first neo needs phone software not web browser Jun 30 15:49:18 s/nive/nice Jun 30 15:49:27 zecke: oh cool! Jun 30 15:49:28 :) Jun 30 15:49:36 now you cannot even send SMS with it (or receive) Jun 30 15:49:38 webkit is cool! Jun 30 15:49:39 zecke: how nice/easy is webkit to use? Jun 30 15:49:50 raster: hehe, we don't have an API yet :) Jun 30 15:49:53 how much of gdk does it depend on or need? Jun 30 15:49:55 * ScaredyCat agrees with hrw Jun 30 15:50:08 hrw: yes - it needs a lot :) Jun 30 15:50:24 but - many hands make light work Jun 30 15:50:25 :) Jun 30 15:50:43 raster: it needs Gdk for events, cairo for all the painting. And we started using Gtk for implementing native scrollbars and theming Jun 30 15:51:12 hmm Jun 30 15:51:18 how much does it need from the rendering engine? Jun 30 15:51:24 text? Jun 30 15:51:27 primtivies? Jun 30 15:51:27 and neo1973 needs somekind of 'I am charging' information.. Jun 30 15:51:37 is it immediate mode based Jun 30 15:51:39 ie paint Jun 30 15:51:40 raster: floating point precision and alpha Jun 30 15:51:42 or object mode Jun 30 15:51:50 ie Jun 30 15:51:52 create an image Jun 30 15:51:54 a text blob Jun 30 15:51:55 etc. Jun 30 15:51:59 then manipulate it Jun 30 15:51:59 ? Jun 30 15:52:14 hrw: apm provides that Jun 30 15:52:16 already Jun 30 15:52:31 little battery charger tells u Jun 30 15:52:32 raster: to have apm you need to boot. to boot you need to have power Jun 30 15:52:57 hrw: u mean in uboot? Jun 30 15:53:11 that is the chicken and egg problem i hit this week Jun 30 15:53:37 dead battery Jun 30 15:53:43 cant boot neo so the battery can charge Jun 30 15:53:48 because battery is dead Jun 30 15:53:50 raster: hehe, you will outperform me on graphics. WebKit is doing the layouting of text. There is the RenderTree that will use GraphicsContext to paint (regions). So your imaging model etc. is up to the port Jun 30 15:53:58 raster: I have external charger Jun 30 15:54:14 zecke: hmm - i guess i would need to look deeper Jun 30 15:54:21 zecke: just was pondering an evas port Jun 30 15:54:28 so a web page just becomes a sma object Jun 30 15:54:33 much like emotion does with video Jun 30 15:54:41 hrw: lucky you Jun 30 15:54:44 raster: http://trac.webkit.org/projects/webkit/browser/trunk/WebCore/platform/graphics for the Graphic interfaces used by WebKit Jun 30 15:55:02 raster: WebKit thinks in terms of Frames and FrameViews Jun 30 15:55:03 hrw: i dont. i ended up using rubber bands and sticky tape because my sony ericsoon lucky would agree to charge the neo's battery Jun 30 15:55:08 even if it was foreign Jun 30 15:55:09 raster: it is 3 eur worth 3rdparty nokia charger Jun 30 15:55:22 raster: graphic ops for normal HTML http://trac.webkit.org/projects/webkit/browser/trunk/WebCore/platform/graphics/GraphicsContext.h Jun 30 15:56:57 raster: getting it to render one page is easy, making it always work is the tough part in WebKit Jun 30 15:58:18 zecke: yuk. it's immediate mode Jun 30 15:59:12 let me google :) Jun 30 15:59:17 hrw: woudl be much mroe than 3eur here in jp Jun 30 15:59:23 considering how rare nokia phones are here Jun 30 15:59:35 zecke: that means its "draw draw draw" Jun 30 15:59:46 not "create object - set the text, move it here" Jun 30 15:59:53 raster: probably Jun 30 16:00:55 raster: ahh, so the cairo api is object mode based Jun 30 16:01:15 no Jun 30 16:01:18 cairo is immediate Jun 30 16:01:31 a WIDGET SET is stateful Jun 30 16:01:33 u create a button Jun 30 16:01:35 or an entry Jun 30 16:01:38 an icon Jun 30 16:01:40 label Jun 30 16:01:41 etc. Jun 30 16:01:43 then pack it Jun 30 16:01:46 or move it Jun 30 16:01:50 u never redraw it Jun 30 16:01:54 widget set handles all that for u Jun 30 16:01:58 u simply manipulate state Jun 30 16:02:10 like move/resize of a window Jun 30 16:03:02 well Jun 30 16:03:29 webkit would need to be implemented as an object Jun 30 16:03:43 as only first class objects are allowed to have immediate-mode rendering api's Jun 30 16:03:53 eiother that or have cairo render it to an argb buffer Jun 30 16:03:59 and just let evas composite it Jun 30 16:12:25 does anybody here know how directly accessible the USB data pins are on a mobile USB device like the Neo? Jun 30 16:13:02 LuitvD: they are in external miniUSB Jun 30 16:13:26 I mean accessibility from a software point of view Jun 30 16:14:38 for example, can you dump an IR-signal on the data pins? Jun 30 16:14:56 i doubt it - there's a standard usb 1.1 controller on it Jun 30 16:15:08 you want to use d-/d+ lines as gpio? Jun 30 16:15:17 hrw: ideally, yes Jun 30 16:21:52 why don't you just use a cheap usb-enabled micro as a "gpio-extender"? Jun 30 16:22:20 LuitvD: that should be possible if you disable the USB module Jun 30 16:22:31 hmm Jun 30 16:22:53 would make a nice way to transform a Neo into a kickass remote control Jun 30 16:24:21 if you want to see acool/funny video about the iphone go here http://leonho.com/articles/great-video-david-pogue-reviews-iphone/ Jun 30 16:24:32 and yes, the vid is from the ny times! Jun 30 16:24:50 (seen via planet gnome) Jun 30 16:31:00 well, wow Jun 30 16:31:12 the UI appears to be incredibly well done Jun 30 16:33:46 gamin: thanks :) Jun 30 16:33:58 the iphone has a fast picture slide Jun 30 16:34:56 the gui is cool and fast :) Jun 30 16:35:37 Well, if I find enough developers to go with me, we shall make something similar cool. Jun 30 16:36:09 gamin: what exactly Jun 30 16:36:29 a user interface that deserves the name Jun 30 16:36:29 gamin: really a funny video ^^ Jun 30 16:36:53 gamin: yes :) cool design and very fast :) Jun 30 16:37:03 without geek crap, easy and intuitive Jun 30 16:37:38 I don't like any of the openmoko ui libs, but then they are easy to be substituted Jun 30 16:38:11 yes intuitive is very important Jun 30 16:38:18 especially the idea of stylus apps when there is no stylus is completely broken Jun 30 16:38:28 to connect to a wifi hotspot with wpa and co musst be easy Jun 30 16:38:34 they do give u a stylus Jun 30 16:38:38 its just really big Jun 30 16:38:42 and unable to be attached to the phone Jun 30 16:38:43 :) Jun 30 16:38:54 yes ... a stylus without a place :/ Jun 30 16:39:00 yeah Jun 30 16:39:04 finger software is the best way ;) Jun 30 16:39:09 raster: exactly! thus it essentially means no stylus Jun 30 16:39:15 i think the neo will need to morph into 100% thumb driven Jun 30 16:39:23 itsd just nicer that way Jun 30 16:39:23 raster: but a cool stylus with laser and co ^^ Jun 30 16:39:27 PBeck: I agree, as shown in the apple videos Jun 30 16:39:41 raster: yes that would be cool :) Jun 30 16:39:47 gamin: yes :D Jun 30 16:39:50 will get to that... Jun 30 16:39:52 but first Jun 30 16:39:57 need to replace most of the UI Jun 30 16:40:00 raster, but I can't imagine that all applications we will have in futurer can be driven by thumbs only Jun 30 16:40:06 I have seen the nokia 800 and think the amount of buttons is nonsense Jun 30 16:40:15 thomasg__: maybe- but lets see Jun 30 16:40:19 i think it's possible Jun 30 16:40:24 actually I think it is good the the neo has only two Jun 30 16:40:30 gamin: how much mhz have the iphone cpu? Jun 30 16:40:34 gamin: it has 2? Jun 30 16:40:35 as I said on the list before some days, I used my old nokia 7710 (the first only-touchscreen-smartphone) to make small drawings and so on Jun 30 16:40:50 only has 1 Jun 30 16:40:52 I'd like to have a basic (paint-like) graphics program on my neo, too Jun 30 16:40:52 power Jun 30 16:40:52 :) Jun 30 16:40:53 thomasg__: not all but many ;) Jun 30 16:41:01 PBeck, I agree Jun 30 16:41:02 somewhere I read the iphone has probably a 533Mhz samsung arm Jun 30 16:41:13 gamin, yes, anadtech thinks so Jun 30 16:41:28 raster: on/off button and kind of enter button Jun 30 16:41:29 it's a arm11 which probably has some cache, too Jun 30 16:41:36 gamin: wheres the enter button? Jun 30 16:41:39 dunno what signal the second button emits Jun 30 16:41:52 i have one Jun 30 16:41:55 and theres only 1 button Jun 30 16:42:09 raster, isn't ther the power-button and another button on the side? Jun 30 16:42:16 only power Jun 30 16:42:21 nothign else Jun 30 16:42:24 thomasg__: dialer, contacts, photo, video, calendar, notes all can be driven by fingern, we need a good finger input method Jun 30 16:42:39 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Category:Neo1973_Hardware#Buttons Jun 30 16:42:42 raster: i think we have to buttons Jun 30 16:42:43 doing a good finger/thumb input method /vkbd is going to be hell Jun 30 16:42:45 one for power Jun 30 16:42:45 raster, look here, 2 buttons Jun 30 16:42:52 especially tyring not to trad over apple patents Jun 30 16:43:10 raster: without a stylus, yes Jun 30 16:43:25 raster, even apple couldn't do that good Jun 30 16:43:37 there already were many complaints about the vkbd Jun 30 16:43:58 especially because they didn't get it to make it usable for more than 1 thumb :) Jun 30 16:44:04 vkbd = virtuell keyboard? Jun 30 16:44:06 yes Jun 30 16:44:09 oooh Jun 30 16:44:11 thats a BUTTON Jun 30 16:44:14 lol Jun 30 16:44:16 i thoguht it was an IR reciever Jun 30 16:44:29 ^^ Jun 30 16:44:31 on mine its not marked in any way Jun 30 16:44:35 just plain black Jun 30 16:44:36 shiny Jun 30 16:44:54 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973_AUX_button Jun 30 16:45:18 imho the moko phones should have more buttons Jun 30 16:45:19 raster: how did you manage to get a neo already? Jun 30 16:45:27 like some volume up/down slider on the side Jun 30 16:45:29 which processor is in the iphone? Jun 30 16:45:31 a few others Jun 30 16:45:35 but not a heap of them Jun 30 16:45:38 PBeck: arm Jun 30 16:45:58 raster: how much mhz? Jun 30 16:46:00 gamin: i flew down to taiwan to pick it up Jun 30 16:46:04 PBeck: no idea Jun 30 16:46:05 There are about 80 neos in the wild Jun 30 16:46:11 Of various versions. Jun 30 16:46:11 raster, yeah, we were discussing that on the list already Jun 30 16:46:25 a up/down button on the side usable with the thumb would be perfect Jun 30 16:46:29 thomasg__: touchscreen is nice Jun 30 16:46:37 but real pushy clikcy buttons are good too Jun 30 16:46:44 exactly Jun 30 16:46:49 thomasg__: seen the blackberrys? Jun 30 16:46:59 theres a scrollwheel on the side Jun 30 16:47:02 very handy Jun 30 16:47:33 the recessed screen on the neo tho is a bit of a shame Jun 30 16:47:41 the plastic cover is too thick Jun 30 16:47:47 means screen corners are almost useless Jun 30 16:47:47 good gestures would be a idea to clear the mistake ;) Jun 30 16:47:48 raster, yes, it's nice Jun 30 16:47:53 (for touchies) Jun 30 16:47:54 but I had another idea Jun 30 16:48:02 I'm looking for the thread on the list, moment Jun 30 16:48:06 with good gestures we dont need so many buttons Jun 30 16:48:33 PBeck: no- gestures basically makes it much harder to use your screen Jun 30 16:48:42 I hate gestures Jun 30 16:48:49 you also have to learn them Jun 30 16:48:52 and then get them right Jun 30 16:48:53 I don't like gestures either Jun 30 16:48:53 hum :P Jun 30 16:49:04 except the ones on the iphone :) Jun 30 16:49:04 think about the ambiguity of them Jun 30 16:49:07 touchscreen is perfect to do one simple click and it doesnt matter where the button is Jun 30 16:49:10 i press mu finger doiwn Jun 30 16:49:12 drag up the screen Jun 30 16:49:13 release Jun 30 16:49:17 whjat can that mean? Jun 30 16:49:22 i may be pressing on a combo widget Jun 30 16:49:26 raster: we can use a hardwarebutton to activate the gestures Jun 30 16:49:28 where i press, drag to the itme to select Jun 30 16:49:29 release Jun 30 16:49:37 could be that i want to hilight/select text Jun 30 16:49:41 i clould want to scroll... Jun 30 16:49:49 raster: are you the rasterman? Jun 30 16:50:11 the enlightenment one? Jun 30 16:50:26 i'm the gunk between your toes Jun 30 16:50:32 :) Jun 30 16:50:34 (script) http://openmoko.com changed: sizeof(diff -u)=327 Jun 30 16:50:42 raster, look at this thread: http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2007-June/005931.html Jun 30 16:50:51 PBeck: we could - but there goers another hw button :) Jun 30 16:51:16 gamin, he is the enlightened one, yes ^^ Jun 30 16:51:25 raster: we have many options, i think we can get a good input method with the touchscreen ;) Jun 30 16:51:26 just s/Micro USB/Mini USB/ Jun 30 16:51:27 raster: I have long time loved enlightenment... Jun 30 16:51:30 (in openmoko.com) Jun 30 16:51:39 tom that'd work well as long as u dont want tactile feedback :) Jun 30 16:51:41 was really sorry when gnoem switched to sawfish Jun 30 16:51:42 also be very flexible Jun 30 16:51:49 PBeck: we can Jun 30 16:51:54 it just is going to be a lot of hard work Jun 30 16:51:56 good to see that you are still alive :) Jun 30 16:51:57 and compromises Jun 30 16:52:05 raster, yes, for the touchpad you're right Jun 30 16:52:14 but I said something else in the thread Jun 30 16:52:16 raster: we have many good persons on the bord, we get the best phone on earth :> Jun 30 16:52:17 I want a rocker-switch Jun 30 16:52:19 gamin: still aliver and sticky Jun 30 16:52:27 personally i'm incredibly happy gnome switched Jun 30 16:52:32 it means i dont have the gnome baggae Jun 30 16:52:33 *on board Jun 30 16:52:38 like removing every config option in sight Jun 30 16:52:46 raster, http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2007-June/005942.html Jun 30 16:52:48 becuase it "confuses our poor users!" Jun 30 16:53:02 god forbid Jun 30 16:53:03 a CHOICE Jun 30 16:53:12 users never make good choices Jun 30 16:53:25 press and drag anywhere on the screen is really useful, trying to hit a small scrollbar on the side of the screen is not fun Jun 30 16:53:36 so its impossible to anticipate that Jun 30 16:54:01 thomasg__: found it Jun 30 16:54:02 s/anywhere on the screen/anywhere on the screen TO SCROLL* :P Jun 30 16:54:06 strip i think i like more Jun 30 16:54:08 had anybody test the pim software? Jun 30 16:54:09 though Jun 30 16:54:28 however, we need something like this :) Jun 30 16:54:34 jeddy3: that presents a small problem Jun 30 16:54:48 jeddy3: what if i want to click drag and SELECT a bunch of text to copy/quote from an email? Jun 30 16:54:54 instead of scroll the email? :) Jun 30 16:54:57 thats when life gets hard Jun 30 16:55:00 who wants iPhone when there is openmoko Jun 30 16:55:04 when a gesture is ambiguous Jun 30 16:55:18 raster, do you know dasher as input method? Jun 30 16:55:26 raster: well, yes and no concerning removing the options... I like it if things just work. However I loved E16, but some years back I gave up wating for E17 ;-))) Jun 30 16:55:36 it clashes with selecting text? yes, but i'd much rather would want it to scroll then going around selecting texts as soon as i touch the screen Jun 30 16:55:39 madwoota: its impossible to keep all users hapy with a limtied set of options - or none, so provide optiosn so users get to change things so it works better for them. Jun 30 16:55:53 thomasg__: name rings a bell- other than that - no idea. Jun 30 16:55:58 gamin, e17 is working very well and its cool to see how it improves every week :) Jun 30 16:56:05 raster: http://www.inference.phy.cam.ac.uk/dasher/ Jun 30 16:56:27 thomasg__: aaah that one Jun 30 16:56:29 maybe your distro has it in the repository, so you can simply try it Jun 30 16:56:32 i have a problem with selecting texts when i don't want to on a NORMAL LAPTOP, and i hate it :) Jun 30 16:56:45 its kinda weird, but its a really cool method for textinput Jun 30 16:56:54 (script) openmoko-community: Sean Moss-Pultz Re: New Oceans Jun 30 16:57:01 and that rocker-button or even a touchstrip would be very cool for dasher in 2d-mode Jun 30 16:57:03 raster: we need profiles, for all groups of users Jun 30 16:57:03 raaster - sarcasm ^ Jun 30 16:57:04 raster: keep in mind that there are a great many users out there who prefer the clean / uncluttered Gnome interface out there. I personally can't stand the KDE crap w/ its 3 bazillion config options and sub-menues Jun 30 16:57:12 thomasg__: i looked at it a long time back and went "how the hell am i expected to use that sanely?" Jun 30 16:57:12 :) Jun 30 16:57:18 hehe Jun 30 16:57:29 a normal enduser need no terminal or other stuff Jun 30 16:57:29 I tried it some minutes and it works really good! Jun 30 16:57:35 thomasg__: I'm using debian *g* Jun 30 16:57:53 madwoota: oooh aha! stuff :) Jun 30 16:58:02 :P Jun 30 16:58:04 gamin, theres a script by morlexus (also e-developer) which lets you easily build e17 and all it's components Jun 30 16:58:26 CoreDump|home: i can't stand gnomes idea that i am an idiot and cannot make my own decisions. :) Jun 30 16:58:40 of course it never occured to them to stick options in an advanced tab/panel/popup/dialog Jun 30 16:58:41 yeah, the same for me Jun 30 16:58:41 :) Jun 30 16:58:42 thomasg__: my day just has 24 hours. there is so much I'd love to do... Jun 30 16:58:44 the problem is that there is no sane middle-ground Jun 30 16:58:54 gamin, it costs you 15 seconds Jun 30 16:59:07 download easy_e17, chmod +x, ./easy_e17 -i - ready :) Jun 30 16:59:27 CoreDump|home: i believe there is Jun 30 16:59:35 CoreDump|home: present a simple easy to use ui by default Jun 30 16:59:41 with limited and targetted options Jun 30 16:59:51 then have an advanced "button" or tab or whatever Jun 30 16:59:53 but I'm happy that it was me to point raster to the two button >:-) - I tiny, tiny thank you... Jun 30 16:59:56 where u can get to all the knobs Jun 30 17:00:06 if the word "advanced" frightens you Jun 30 17:00:09 then dont press it Jun 30 17:00:14 for E16... Jun 30 17:00:24 raster: i think the way of gnome is good. You need not all features every day so you can faster work in many situations Jun 30 17:00:26 gamin: :) Jun 30 17:00:47 PBeck: d every day i basically never see all the features in e17 Jun 30 17:00:48 gnomes idea of do it RIGHT and make sane standards, instead of making every single thing customizable is IMHO nice, but sometimes they go too far Jun 30 17:00:51 raster: well, nice idea but it probably wouldn't fly w/ KDE or Gnome =) Jun 30 17:00:51 or the confgi dialogs Jun 30 17:00:57 for most of my day they are unseen Jun 30 17:00:59 and unused Jun 30 17:00:59 I like they way xine do's that Jun 30 17:00:59 BUT Jun 30 17:01:03 anybody here had a look into tinymail and modest? Jun 30 17:01:08 when i want to SET somethnig up the way i like Jun 30 17:01:11 i sit in them for a while Jun 30 17:01:15 fiddling until it is just right Jun 30 17:01:20 though for e17 that isnt much Jun 30 17:01:21 xine says: user may do nothing what can confuse him. than you see the option "master of the whole universe" and you can do what you want :) Jun 30 17:01:25 as it comes out of the box the way i like it Jun 30 17:01:28 because i code it Jun 30 17:01:29 :) Jun 30 17:02:14 :D Jun 30 17:02:16 CoreDump|home: yup - thus why i dont use gnome or kde Jun 30 17:02:20 one of many reasons Jun 30 17:02:21 :) Jun 30 17:02:33 my gui does what i want it to Jun 30 17:02:35 the way i want Jun 30 17:02:37 jouston.... Jun 30 17:02:43 and damnit - if it doesnt - i make it :) Jun 30 17:02:50 its just a matter of code Jun 30 17:02:51 :) Jun 30 17:03:07 jeddy3: and i agree with the "just make it work" Jun 30 17:03:08 of course, but not every one has the luxury of running his own DE =) Jun 30 17:03:18 but MY idea of "work" and yours may be radically different Jun 30 17:03:20 egt Jun 30 17:03:31 your idea of a small font is probably 4 times bigger than my idea of a small font Jun 30 17:03:37 as i have better than 20/20 vision Jun 30 17:03:46 i can see and read miniscule text with ease Jun 30 17:03:49 i lik eit Jun 30 17:03:54 as i cvan cram lots of text on my screen Jun 30 17:04:03 and thus avoid scrolling around and losing context Jun 30 17:04:04 but Jun 30 17:04:10 a ui that assumes i am a blind bat Jun 30 17:04:17 and i need my text no smaller than size C Jun 30 17:04:24 where i really want it size C/4 Jun 30 17:04:29 is incredibly annoying Jun 30 17:04:35 it may fit your idea of "just works" Jun 30 17:04:37 but not mine Jun 30 17:04:40 hehe, i can imagine :) Jun 30 17:04:41 that is a simple example Jun 30 17:04:45 it expands Jun 30 17:05:01 thats is why i believe people should have options they can twiddle Jun 30 17:05:08 people are inherently different Jun 30 17:05:11 you like pink Jun 30 17:05:13 of course, you need to be ABLE to config it somewhere if it just doesn't cut it for you Jun 30 17:05:14 i like blue Jun 30 17:05:15 etc. Jun 30 17:05:39 jeddy3: yup. the problem is that gnome is in the business of removing that Jun 30 17:05:47 and that is annoying Jun 30 17:06:04 with some false premise that completely removing a config option Jun 30 17:06:05 raster, sometimes really annoyin, yes Jun 30 17:06:35 (a llto of options have gone - u cant just go to some cmd-line thing to swizzle them - and even if u can - u have no idea the option even exists) Jun 30 17:07:07 anyway Jun 30 17:07:11 options == good Jun 30 17:07:12 imho Jun 30 17:07:18 the trick is: Jun 30 17:07:27 1. make stuff "just work" as opften as possible Jun 30 17:07:49 but the other way of "hey lets make it configurable so we don't need to think about how we should implement it" is really annoying to Jun 30 17:07:51 2. present basic options in a simple format to the user by default Jun 30 17:07:57 3. provide a way to getting to all the options Jun 30 17:08:04 in an "advanced" mode" Jun 30 17:08:17 jeddy3: sure! that is bad too Jun 30 17:08:17 agree abso Jun 30 17:08:20 raster, yes thats a sane aproach Jun 30 17:08:30 i definitely would not criticize anyone for making that happen Jun 30 17:08:42 hell i stop myself and other develoeprs from just adding raw options all the time Jun 30 17:08:45 i like to go Jun 30 17:09:14 what i always see are people outside the geek world, i.e my parents.... Jun 30 17:09:16 "stand back and think - WHY are u adding an option - can u make it work withotu needing one? is your option just a symptom of something else that should be improved?" Jun 30 17:09:16 etc. Jun 30 17:09:26 add the option when u need to Jun 30 17:09:29 or there is a good reason Jun 30 17:09:49 raster, absolutely agree Jun 30 17:09:54 but Jun 30 17:09:59 dont avoid an option Jun 30 17:10:00 or remove them Jun 30 17:10:07 if u have competing points of view Jun 30 17:10:09 eg Jun 30 17:10:13 click to focus vs pointer focus Jun 30 17:10:16 i HATE clikc to focus Jun 30 17:10:20 it drives me nuts Jun 30 17:10:25 lol Jun 30 17:10:30 me too Jun 30 17:10:36 make me want to kill people Jun 30 17:10:45 rofl Jun 30 17:10:46 a ui that removed the ability to have pointer focus Jun 30 17:10:49 and set it up easily Jun 30 17:11:13 would have me coming down on them with small hand-held thermonuclear devices Jun 30 17:11:20 if i was forced to use such a gui Jun 30 17:11:50 i prefer a gui that doesnt need a mouse Jun 30 17:11:58 I'm forced to use windows once a month and I strongly agree.. Jun 30 17:12:02 course, thats kinda what guis are for, so i just sit on cli all day Jun 30 17:12:02 hehe Jun 30 17:12:19 hhehe Jun 30 17:12:31 the neo will be a challeng for u Jun 30 17:12:33 :) Jun 30 17:12:33 browsers are the worst mouse-abusers Jun 30 17:12:35 challenge Jun 30 17:12:35 :) Jun 30 17:12:53 raster: absolutely, just these *two* buttons :) Jun 30 17:13:02 well Jun 30 17:13:05 madwoota, I recommend links :) Jun 30 17:13:15 if the power butotn werent recessed and hard to press Jun 30 17:13:17 you don't need a mouse there ^^ Jun 30 17:13:19 thomasg - i agree :P Jun 30 17:13:19 actually afaik the on/off emits different signals depending on lenght of press Jun 30 17:13:21 u could tap out morse code Jun 30 17:13:23 or binary Jun 30 17:13:30 to indicate the keycodes to press... Jun 30 17:13:30 :) Jun 30 17:13:53 morse code for sms - *lol* Jun 30 17:14:12 a neo will obviously be a pointer controlled device, so you expect to be using that Jun 30 17:14:20 great idea, I will just start to refresh my skills.. Jun 30 17:14:39 keyboards are faster on a pc, so forcing people to use mice is silly imho Jun 30 17:14:42 raster, if you know the codes, I think you can be faster morsing ascii than typing on an small osk :) Jun 30 17:15:07 madwoota, imho the mouse is a good thing Jun 30 17:15:08 thomasg__: only if you have a really good button Jun 30 17:15:16 madwoota: dunno - i find my mouse really fast Jun 30 17:15:18 but then again Jun 30 17:15:19 and as e17-user the mouse can be handeled really fast Jun 30 17:15:23 i grew up with a mouse in my hand Jun 30 17:15:24 :) Jun 30 17:15:34 i can draw as well with a mouser as i can with a pen Jun 30 17:15:43 -.- Jun 30 17:15:45 I want, too! Jun 30 17:15:46 a mouse has its place ... like doom, quake, etc :P Jun 30 17:15:52 cannot draw using a mouse :( Jun 30 17:16:03 it takes lots of practice Jun 30 17:16:05 :) Jun 30 17:16:07 drawing ? wassat ? :) Jun 30 17:16:12 * gamin prefers a mouse strongly over a touchpad Jun 30 17:16:17 indeed Jun 30 17:16:23 touchpads really suck Jun 30 17:16:25 mouse > touchpad Jun 30 17:16:30 but ibm's trackpoint is damn great! Jun 30 17:16:39 though the neo Jun 30 17:16:41 mouse > trackpoint > touchpad Jun 30 17:16:42 having a touchscreen Jun 30 17:16:54 effectivley is a big touchpad on top of the screen Jun 30 17:16:55 ... Jun 30 17:16:58 so need to live with it Jun 30 17:17:02 maybe not as good as a mouse, but it kills some big disadvantages of mouses and touchpads Jun 30 17:17:05 not really Jun 30 17:17:28 a touchpad is different in that you're applying relative movements to a mouse cursor Jun 30 17:17:51 a touchscreen lets you position the cursor wherever you touch it Jun 30 17:18:02 ././ Jun 30 17:18:11 actually I loved the trackballs Jun 30 17:18:13 I guess we all know this :) Jun 30 17:18:37 but trackballs have vanished a decade ago :( Jun 30 17:18:38 gamin, well, trackballs are similar to the trackpoint but with one of the big mouse/touchpad disadvantages Jun 30 17:18:53 you need do reposition your hand/finger Jun 30 17:19:28 and you don't need to do that on a trackpoint. another big advantage is that the trackpoint can be small enough to fit on the keyboard, so you can let your hands on the keyboard Jun 30 17:19:54 I have never got up to the speed with trackpoints and definitely with pads that I was able to achieve with the balls Jun 30 17:20:14 actually the blackberry pearl has a trabckall Jun 30 17:20:18 a miniature one Jun 30 17:20:19 yes, it does Jun 30 17:20:22 above the kbd Jun 30 17:20:24 its really nice Jun 30 17:20:33 raster: so I'm really looking forward what is comig from you Jun 30 17:20:44 i'd consider even suggesting future openmoko phones have it Jun 30 17:20:49 coming even Jun 30 17:20:52 just as a secondary form of input Jun 30 17:20:55 in all dimansions Jun 30 17:20:58 it's nice, yes. they replaced the usual joystick (damn, what a relict in our time! ^^) or 2-axis-wipe with it Jun 30 17:21:03 gamin: for now - expect e17 to be more matchboxy Jun 30 17:21:11 get at least a primitive virtual kbd Jun 30 17:21:20 and some main menu launcher module Jun 30 17:21:34 actually I like the osk's Jun 30 17:21:36 the rest is simply config Jun 30 17:21:50 will need to go from there Jun 30 17:21:53 there's a primitive vkbd :) Jun 30 17:22:00 I'm quite fast with them - haing used them with familiar for some years now Jun 30 17:22:04 but w/o scaling support, so useless for the neo Jun 30 17:22:19 thomasg__: need to implement that Jun 30 17:22:27 the apple osk is very cool Jun 30 17:22:33 but chances are i want to try something a bit more radical Jun 30 17:22:43 so i'll buidl somethign that just manages to function "just enough" to work Jun 30 17:22:48 then rip it apart over time Jun 30 17:23:16 the neo has a tiny screen tho Jun 30 17:23:29 a thumb doign typing is a challenge... at best Jun 30 17:23:40 almsot impossible to get it working right more likely Jun 30 17:23:43 Not really. Jun 30 17:23:54 It's impossible to do one movement = one unique char Jun 30 17:23:57 hmm, probably a 3,5" with less resolution is a gain... Jun 30 17:24:01 well, the thub has the worst form it could have for typing :) Jun 30 17:24:13 why the hell we do not have our little finger on the position the thumb has?! :) Jun 30 17:24:15 yup Jun 30 17:24:22 but giveh how u hold something Jun 30 17:24:26 its the best candidate Jun 30 17:24:37 well, we are in the information century :) Jun 30 17:24:53 evolution is to slow for us Jun 30 17:24:58 hehehe Jun 30 17:25:10 driect-to-brain interfaces are next... Jun 30 17:25:10 :) Jun 30 17:25:22 * SpeedEvil imagines mac users evolving to have only one finger. Jun 30 17:25:22 lol Jun 30 17:25:32 raster: You can be the alpha tester for brain interfaces. Jun 30 17:25:34 SpeedEvil, and a smaller head Jun 30 17:25:44 so they can get their had into the ass of steve jobs :P Jun 30 17:25:57 *hea Jun 30 17:26:04 fuck... *head Jun 30 17:26:35 ew Jun 30 17:26:50 thomasg__: Well, they can do it already quite nicely Jun 30 17:27:10 iTards Jun 30 17:27:22 Jobse! Jun 30 17:27:33 thomasg__: steve's arse is already wide and flappy from all the heads crammed up it already :) Jun 30 17:27:38 lol Jun 30 17:27:39 counter Jun 30 17:27:40 (last update 2007-06-30T13:10) http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter 60% for P1 in a week, a day 18:32:15 (8.772±1.0 days) (1654;242) Jun 30 17:28:19 * zecke wonders what php based webshop openmoko.com will use Jun 30 17:28:30 s/what/which/ Jun 30 17:28:49 sure php? Jun 30 17:28:52 not asp? Jun 30 17:29:01 raster, you are still in tokyo? Jun 30 17:29:07 hm, I need to be fast, to get one. could imagine that the 1k devices are ordered fast Jun 30 17:29:14 yup Jun 30 17:29:23 woglinde: ah, I can test uclibc on my shark Jun 30 17:29:25 must be early morning there? Jun 30 17:29:35 zecke wrong channel Jun 30 17:29:37 yup Jun 30 17:29:40 2:30am Jun 30 17:29:41 time to snooze Jun 30 17:29:56 i have a "embeddeD" layout module to hack up tomorrow Jun 30 17:30:09 to enforce "maximized" windows Jun 30 17:30:13 on everything Jun 30 17:30:16 (except dialogs) Jun 30 17:30:55 snooz! Jun 30 17:31:14 I'm glad that morlenxus wrote the patch to disable those nasty "do you really want to..."-dialogs :) Jun 30 17:31:43 <[psy]> do you really want to apply this patch? ;) Jun 30 17:31:57 yahoo, I met raster - *g* Jun 30 17:32:01 :D Jun 30 17:32:19 lol Jun 30 17:32:28 must have been befor 2000 that I used E16 Jun 30 17:32:53 .##//.//. Jun 30 17:33:32 hum i dont find any information about the iphone cpu Jun 30 17:33:39 only that its a arm is Jun 30 17:33:58 PBeck: there are several people that have already dissected it. Jun 30 17:34:02 loook /. Jun 30 17:34:12 PBeck: check the pictures Jun 30 17:34:19 I think anandtech has a review Jun 30 17:34:20 well, they let little chinese kids paint their logo on the arm chip Jun 30 17:34:32 so you can't see what it is exactly Jun 30 17:34:54 http://www.macnn.com/articles/07/06/29/first.iphone.disassembly/ Jun 30 17:35:28 http://www.anandtech.com/printarticle.aspx?i=3026 Jun 30 17:35:53 first unlocker... Jun 30 17:36:01 first linux boot... Jun 30 17:36:10 same story again :p Jun 30 17:36:12 every time the same story :) Jun 30 17:36:45 ynezz: I'd just be happy with apple's freebsd Jun 30 17:37:05 the user interface is really cool Jun 30 17:37:15 it's running freebsd? Jun 30 17:37:27 ynezz: osX is some kind of bsd Jun 30 17:37:29 ok that mean 400 or 460 mhz Jun 30 17:37:32 it's running a mach kernel Jun 30 17:37:37 hm Jun 30 17:37:44 so no bsd Jun 30 17:37:50 ohh Jun 30 17:38:11 ok i think openmoko on the neo can be so fast how the iphone is :P Jun 30 17:38:12 tannenbaum will be happy then Jun 30 17:38:25 well, that's not fully correct Jun 30 17:38:37 it's bsd based (4.4BSD) but it has a mach kernel Jun 30 17:38:44 PBeck: with the 2D/3d accel probably yes Jun 30 17:38:56 but no multitap... Jun 30 17:39:18 and no funky ui Jun 30 17:39:28 and no gesture scroll Jun 30 17:39:36 imho the iphone gui looks good, but it's pretty uninteresting Jun 30 17:39:37 hm i think that will be only a softwareproblem? Jun 30 17:39:53 and no automatic switch between portrait/landscape Jun 30 17:40:13 PBeck: rewriting lots of widgets.... Jun 30 17:40:16 hey Jun 30 17:40:31 I already said that before some hours: some guys invented the scrollbar to be able to go from top down (wherever this is) with ONE move. the iphone needs 2, 5, 20, 50 moves, however Jun 30 17:40:37 gamin, GTA02 can likely switch... Jun 30 17:41:19 well see how e17 performs :) Jun 30 17:41:20 mjr: yes, but it needs lots of coding to have everything support it Jun 30 17:41:41 gamin: can the touchscreen of the neo multitap? Jun 30 17:41:42 I wonder what time resolution the accels will have Jun 30 17:41:49 PBeck: afaik no Jun 30 17:42:10 You don't need to have everything support rotation, just randr away. And see apps get totally confused about the layout, but then you can turn the phone back ;P Jun 30 17:42:26 gamin: it depends. Jun 30 17:42:40 to integrate of the acceleration you need to know it every milli second Jun 30 17:42:42 gamin: the ones mentioned on the mailing list have about 7 bit resolution. Jun 30 17:42:55 gamin: the best in class have about 12 Jun 30 17:42:58 (of 1G) Jun 30 17:43:00 SpeedEvil: not that much Jun 30 17:43:13 Basically. Jun 30 17:43:31 See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Accelerometer_Fundamentals Jun 30 17:43:36 That much. Jun 30 17:43:57 Well - 11/12 Jun 30 17:44:16 SpeedEvil: thanks for the link - I have studied physics :) Jun 30 17:44:37 Yes - however unless youve studied datasheets... Jun 30 17:45:21 well, the openmoko ui widgets do not really rock... Jun 30 17:46:00 but then Michael is a qt-fan... Jun 30 17:46:14 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Neo1973/it]] Jun 30 17:46:30 Probably we are going to see kopenmoko :-P Jun 30 17:46:40 like kubuntu Jun 30 17:47:11 You're welcome to port it to your UI of choice :) Jun 30 17:47:21 whois kopenmoko.org Jun 30 17:47:21 NOT FOUND Jun 30 17:47:34 whois kopenmoko.com Jun 30 17:47:34 No match for "KOPENMOKO.COM". Jun 30 17:47:38 :) Jun 30 17:47:46 whois fvwm95openmoko.com Jun 30 17:47:48 NOT FOUND Jun 30 17:47:51 lol Jun 30 17:47:58 www.fluxmoko.org Jun 30 17:48:16 win311moko.org Jun 30 17:48:30 dos62moko.org Jun 30 17:48:32 :P Jun 30 17:48:36 * ScaredyCat slaps ppl Jun 30 17:48:36 GEMmoko Jun 30 17:48:50 Win1Moko might almost make sense. Jun 30 17:48:58 You don't need overlapping windows. Jun 30 17:49:01 drdosmoko.com Jun 30 17:49:22 zx81moko.com Jun 30 17:49:33 gamin: We've got the keyboard feel down! Jun 30 17:50:34 does the touchscreen work in xnest xoo ... ? Jun 30 17:51:12 Where is the "NOOOOO :O" petition at the prices? :P Jun 30 17:51:21 hum i need a dev environment ^^ Jun 30 17:51:33 * nox-Hand is going to have a really hard time affording the 450 dollars compared to 350 :| Jun 30 17:51:53 Do dev, and you'd prolly get a cheap one. Jun 30 17:52:00 nox-Hand, why? $300 is a pretty good price Jun 30 17:52:02 pfft, you have 3 months, Jun 30 17:52:04 SpeedEvil: I can't code :-( Jun 30 17:52:04 If they have a clue Jun 30 17:52:19 thomasg__: gta_02 .. Jun 30 17:52:25 you can't save 100 usd in 3 months? Jun 30 17:52:27 2 months learn to code, one month to code. Jun 30 17:52:29 ok, but imho $450 for THIS device is also a good price Jun 30 17:52:31 nox-Hand: learn it Jun 30 17:52:39 thomasg__: Yeah, but I require Wi-Fi to be able to use an app I wish to make Jun 30 17:52:44 thomasg__: disagree Jun 30 17:52:48 And up till then I am going to be working up on it Jun 30 17:52:57 asus has a laptop for 190$ Jun 30 17:52:59 nox-Hand: which? Jun 30 17:53:05 nox-Hand: kismet? :> Jun 30 17:53:17 PBeck: What, kismet, is that a language? :P Jun 30 17:53:29 Dunno yet, but was thikning Python Jun 30 17:53:45 And then I would like to make a gui MPD control program Jun 30 17:53:56 well, this dollars doesnt really matter for me, but for a student and so on its a lot of money, thats correct. but here in germany a good smartphone starts at $500 Jun 30 17:53:59 python shall be well supported as mickey loves it Jun 30 17:54:01 So you can over wiFi control your music all over th ehouse Jun 30 17:54:25 nox-Hand, yeah, I will also use the neo with wifi as super-remote :) Jun 30 17:54:39 btremote Jun 30 17:54:40 looking forward to running the emphasis (etk) mpd-client on it Jun 30 17:54:57 thomasg__: But if it's going to be 450 USD for the starter pack with WiFi :| Jun 30 17:55:07 nox-Hand: nice Jun 30 17:55:12 * Aria grins. I was planning on using it with MPD myself. Jun 30 17:55:30 Though I was thinking of using an N770 or N800 more Jun 30 17:55:36 thomasg__: imho they just got greedy. they could sell it for 100$ less Jun 30 17:55:49 thomasg__: I was considering trying to find a way to port Sonata MPD to the Moko Jun 30 17:55:53 and the software will suck for at least another year Jun 30 17:56:01 gamin, might be. but I think the development costs much money Jun 30 17:56:25 and the opensource support would be worth the higher price imho Jun 30 17:56:33 thomasg__: that is just Seans blabla Jun 30 17:56:53 gamin, didn't here sean telling something about this, that was only my opinion Jun 30 17:57:09 ... but I am all sad about possibly not being able to afford it :[ Jun 30 17:57:19 sean said somewhere the the phone costs 3M$ Jun 30 17:58:39 the iphone is 499 and the neo "sucks" compared to it - except for geeks Jun 30 17:58:51 thats totally wrong! Jun 30 17:59:02 why Jun 30 17:59:07 the iphone is compined with a plan! the plans start at about $60 per month! Jun 30 17:59:20 yes, with unlimited date Jun 30 17:59:23 data even Jun 30 17:59:32 you always need a plan Jun 30 17:59:32 in germany you pay about 40% for a phone with a $30 plan Jun 30 17:59:50 and in france you don't even get a plan like that Jun 30 18:00:09 no chance here to have data and phone on the same sim card Jun 30 18:00:18 execpt for pharmacy prices Jun 30 18:00:28 no problem in germany Jun 30 18:00:31 like one MB for 15 EUR Jun 30 18:00:35 but data's also expensive here Jun 30 18:00:37 "There's a four-ring 2.5mm stereo jack which provides connectivity to old-fashioned wired headsets. (An L shaped 3.5mm adapter is planned for later.)" Does 'later' mean GTA02 or what? Jun 30 18:01:40 think later means later :) Jun 30 18:01:43 so 60$ is 45EUR: with data and minutes: great plan Jun 30 18:01:51 Data in the US is usually expensive too, 'cept device-tied like Blackberry and iPhone Jun 30 18:01:54 gamin, but thats the states Jun 30 18:02:11 example: Jun 30 18:02:15 italy is cool: 9GB for 25 EUR Jun 30 18:02:20 * nox-Hand just wants the Moko for 350 USD :( Jun 30 18:02:36 thomasg__: damn, that sucks =( Jun 30 18:02:37 nox-Hand: but you get it for 300! Jun 30 18:02:56 gamin: not gta02 Jun 30 18:03:06 the average salary in germany is about 2500€. the avagerage in the states is about 2300$ (afaik) Jun 30 18:03:07 gamin: Not the one with WiFI Jun 30 18:03:44 thomasg__: Not all geeks are adults, and many attend school having a low amount of money for spare use Jun 30 18:03:57 nox-Hand, that's correct Jun 30 18:03:59 they can ask their parents =) Jun 30 18:04:14 or do summerjobs Jun 30 18:04:26 * mjr sighs at the "we want wifi but we don't want to pay for it" crowd Jun 30 18:04:36 I was a geek when I was 14 and had no money, so I had to save every buck when I wanted to buy a new PC Jun 30 18:05:07 * gamin sighs at mjr to not understand that the wifi chip is 10$ :) Jun 30 18:05:14 i think 450 is very reasonable price Jun 30 18:05:17 thomasg__: I am finally getting a laptop on Monday Jun 30 18:05:23 Basheri, yeah, I see it like you Jun 30 18:05:24 thomasg__: And my own PC is a 333mhz pII Jun 30 18:05:27 That's my server Jun 30 18:05:47 Basheri: And you can plausibly afford it Jun 30 18:05:55 Also, I don't see where the base package is useful Jun 30 18:06:06 I mean, a regular user should have most of the things on the power package Jun 30 18:06:14 umm, just buy some cheap-ass nokia Jun 30 18:06:42 anyone with Gtk+ knowledge around? If one wants to fake expose_event's is there somethign to take care of? Jun 30 18:06:54 signal_emit? Jun 30 18:06:57 nox-Hand, what's the difference between the p2 normal and advanced package? Jun 30 18:07:04 okay: for 60$ at&t you get 450 minutes of talk daytime and 5000 minutes evening plus flatrate email and web. Jun 30 18:07:19 thomasg__: I said pII as in that's the processor in my server -_- Jun 30 18:07:31 that will cost me in france about 400EUR/520$ per month Jun 30 18:07:40 :DDD Jun 30 18:07:42 nox-Hand, I know Jun 30 18:07:52 but you also said " I mean, a regular user should have most of the things on the power package" Jun 30 18:07:58 and thats what I am referring to Jun 30 18:08:13 gamin: 500 minutes of talk 17 euros (here in finland) Jun 30 18:08:31 Basheri: envy :) Jun 30 18:08:35 Indeed. Jun 30 18:08:44 That's $40+ here Jun 30 18:08:51 and look at t-mobile US, you get much more minutes there. 300 for $30 or so + many features Jun 30 18:08:56 thomasg__: As in the two batteries, and more space and other things. Looking over the list, yeah, okay, buying a ripoff nokia would be fine I guess Jun 30 18:09:18 nox-Hand, erm, I think on the list is only p1 with it's additional stuff? sure it will be the same in p2? Jun 30 18:09:25 thomasg__: Those 'features' are usually locked down to the point of unusable Jun 30 18:10:02 Aria, what I meant was: free the whole weekend, free with 5 favourite numbers (MyFavs)... Jun 30 18:10:07 2Mbit/s 3G = 39,95 euror per month Jun 30 18:10:11 *29 Jun 30 18:10:12 that's the features, and they are really usable :) Jun 30 18:10:19 thomasg__: The phase two will have: * 802.11 b/g WiFi Jun 30 18:10:19 * Samsung 2442 SoC Jun 30 18:10:19 * SMedia 3362 Graphics Accelerator Jun 30 18:10:19 * 2 3D Accelerometers Jun 30 18:10:19 * 256MB Flash Jun 30 18:10:33 I know that. and where are the accesoires? Jun 30 18:10:50 I want: Wifi - more Flash Ram and why not accelerometers? :D Jun 30 18:10:52 they are only in the phase1 section Jun 30 18:11:01 thomasg__: Yeah Jun 30 18:11:01 * Aria nods at thomasg__. Yeah, though you actually need the higher plans to get those features. T-Mo does a bit of bait-and-switch Jun 30 18:11:06 you will get this with the $450 basic-package Jun 30 18:11:15 thomasg__: I know Jun 30 18:11:22 But I was hoping 350-400 usd Jun 30 18:11:35 nox-Hand, I was, too Jun 30 18:11:46 This ads up to over 8000 danish kroner which is A LOT IMO Jun 30 18:11:52 but the new hardware sounds really cool, so I can imagine why it got more expensive Jun 30 18:12:21 well, maybe they'll change it Jun 30 18:12:23 Wait Jun 30 18:12:25 2800* Jun 30 18:12:28 Typo :) Jun 30 18:12:40 thomasg__: I severely doubt it :( Jun 30 18:12:42 will see what the future brings. but even if the device would be $600: I'd buy it :) Jun 30 18:12:51 I mean, 2800 put's it up there with the other smartphones :O Jun 30 18:13:17 well, $450 means for germany €420. nokia wants €490 for their E61i Jun 30 18:13:18 In Danish stuff anyhgoot Jun 30 18:13:20 anyhoot Jun 30 18:13:58 Ah well Jun 30 18:14:03 I got family visit Jun 30 18:14:10 Should probably go pretend I am a social person Jun 30 18:15:06 bbl Jun 30 18:16:48 only thing that is bugging me is the lack of 3.5mm audio-out (well, also lack of UMTS/3G-support, but i can understand that) Jun 30 18:18:04 btw. need more videos of neo!!! ;) Jun 30 18:18:37 * Basheri is suffering from iPhone-videos overflow Jun 30 18:19:36 /nick miip Jun 30 18:19:47 ... Jun 30 18:20:02 Basheri, imho 2.5mm is more reasonable Jun 30 18:20:15 3.5 would be fine for headphones, but 2.5mm for phones Jun 30 18:20:25 but most headphones use 3.5 =( Jun 30 18:20:36 and i wanna listen to music Jun 30 18:20:38 good that the 2.5mm are robust enough for holding an adaptor Jun 30 18:20:38 :D Jun 30 18:21:31 Does it ship with headphones? Jun 30 18:22:27 guess i just have to open firefox and find out :P Jun 30 18:23:39 seems like it does Jun 30 18:27:00 ~lart gtk Jun 30 18:27:01 * apt shoves a crumpet down gtk's throat, happy now?! Huh? Want some JAM with that? Jun 30 18:27:40 Ooh, crumpets. Jun 30 18:27:47 Damn, now I have to go home and make some of those. Jun 30 18:32:30 Haha. "Only steve jobs could get people to stand in line for something that, well, you didn't need to wait in line for" Jun 30 18:32:41 I hearts Ars Jun 30 18:33:10 It's an obnoxious hype, regardless of the device. Jun 30 18:33:43 Indeed. Jun 30 18:34:03 >_< Jun 30 18:34:25 Though admittedly, the iPhone software is incredibly well designed, it's closed nature is a shame ;) Jun 30 18:35:39 And you can't say that the iphone itself is ugly either Jun 30 18:35:58 stay in line for a product Jun 30 18:36:01 Oh it's not. Jun 30 18:36:02 is stupid Jun 30 18:36:02 Basheri: agreed not Jun 30 18:36:04 It's a decent device. Shame about the details. Jun 30 18:36:10 About as pretty as a Motorola E6, I guess :D Jun 30 19:08:02 fghjkl Jun 30 19:08:41 are you sure? Jun 30 19:08:57 heh Jun 30 19:09:04 bleh Jun 30 19:13:51 * aloril2 thinks top of line device next year could very well add another $100-$200 to price Jun 30 19:16:40 Yeah but producing the devices for the mass market with much more pieces makes the production cheaper Jun 30 19:17:07 It is normal that the production of 1000 pieces can't be that cheap Jun 30 19:17:19 economies of scale Jun 30 19:17:27 hi there Jun 30 19:17:29 yeah definetly ;) Jun 30 19:18:06 can anyone tell if can i install OpenMoko in a Windows Mobile 5(pocket pc)?? Jun 30 19:18:07 Bingooo: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.) Jun 30 19:18:38 Bingooo: depends on the hardware afaik Jun 30 19:18:49 In theory yes. Jun 30 19:18:52 In practice no. Jun 30 19:19:00 Unless you port it yourself. Jun 30 19:19:06 Bingooo: yes, if you have a working Linux kernel for the device Jun 30 19:19:33 everything else is cross-platform Jun 30 19:19:34 how do i get the linux kernel? Jun 30 19:19:56 Bingooo: it's a case of if you have to ask, you can't do it. Jun 30 19:19:58 I have Linux on my laptop and all my family desktops Jun 30 19:20:13 Bingooo: it's likely that you can't and that it would take an awful lot of work to write such a kernel Jun 30 19:20:14 It is not remotely simple. Jun 30 19:20:19 SpeedEvil: well, if there's a project already underway(angstrom, familiar, etc.) Jun 30 19:20:30 yeah. Jun 30 19:20:46 is it there any linux for windows mobile(pocket pc) Jun 30 19:20:47 ? Jun 30 19:20:54 Bingooo: what's the model number on your pocket pc? Jun 30 19:20:55 Bingooo: yes Jun 30 19:21:01 There is no one 'windows mobile'. Jun 30 19:21:04 for example: faster CPU, 3G, keyboard, camera (at Nokia N95 level for example): easily >$100 more Jun 30 19:21:06 Bingooo: see http://www.handhelds.org/moin/moin.cgi/SupportedHandheldSummary for the extent to which Linux supports your device Jun 30 19:21:17 There are many many different devices. Jun 30 19:21:21 All incompatible Jun 30 19:21:38 Fujitsu-Siemens Pocket Loxx N520 Jun 30 19:21:44 loox Jun 30 19:22:01 pocket loox N520 Jun 30 19:22:40 Bingooo: i'm afraid you're out of luck Jun 30 19:22:53 damm Jun 30 19:22:57 what waste Jun 30 19:23:02 C550 support is under development according to the wiki Jun 30 19:23:05 hate MS Jun 30 19:23:12 nice Jun 30 19:23:41 the handhelds.org wiki that is Jun 30 19:23:50 because OpenMoko is basically cross-platform Jun 30 19:24:02 so far as you have drivers for your device Jun 30 19:25:14 damm i can't way for OpenMOko Jun 30 19:25:49 i just hope there would be a Wifi and EDGE/3G/HSPDA Jun 30 19:26:04 i would perfect Jun 30 19:26:07 it Jun 30 19:26:22 similar thing could be said about Advanced kit: if you need to ask, then you don't need it: go for Basic kit Jun 30 19:29:22 Bingooo: maybe there is next year (wifi + 3G etc..) Jun 30 19:30:35 i hope OpenMoko doesn't become like Neonode Jun 30 19:31:18 neonode? Jun 30 19:31:58 it vaished up its own arse Jun 30 19:32:06 neonede was a nice phone project Jun 30 19:32:14 Bingooo: did you look at faq? OpenMoko is already on other devices Jun 30 19:32:14 s/vaished/vanished/ Jun 30 19:32:14 ScaredyCat meant: it vanished up its own arse Jun 30 19:32:59 neonode? they used windows ce, didnt they? Jun 30 19:33:31 have a look @ http://www.gsmarena.com/neonode-phones-22.php Jun 30 19:33:50 i dont think this will fail. a lot of really, really cool people working on this - and there are a shitload of people waiting for this Jun 30 19:34:55 so when there will be openmoko working in a iphone? Jun 30 19:36:06 when hell freezes... Jun 30 19:36:46 he, i sure wont help to port it Jun 30 19:38:11 why :D feard ? Jun 30 19:38:31 afraid of apples lawyers :D Jun 30 19:39:37 what could they do Jun 30 19:39:52 Does somebody know if there is a interface for openMoko in developement using OpenGL ES ? (the mass market device will have a graphic chip suporting open gl es 1.1) Jun 30 19:40:04 Perhaps with the help of Clutter. Jun 30 19:40:13 http://www.clutter-project.org/ Jun 30 19:40:32 there is linux for ipod and i think apple lawyers haven't had a problem with that Jun 30 19:40:49 yeah thats right Jun 30 19:40:50 there's bugger all they can do... Jun 30 19:41:04 I also got rockbox on my ipod nano Jun 30 19:41:05 where is neo1973 made? Jun 30 19:41:11 .tw Jun 30 19:41:21 in China is the production plant Jun 30 19:41:58 denis^d1: no, i simply wont spend my money on a hyped, closed (with provider lock-in) and somewhat (apart a few "revolutionary" things) crappy product Jun 30 19:42:40 DerCorny: yeah that's right :> Jun 30 19:42:52 Just thought about the point after sending the message Jun 30 19:43:37 but it is GREAT :P ;) ( talking with the words of our god father mr steve jobs) Jun 30 19:46:34 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Talk:OpenMoko_under_QEMU]] Jun 30 19:48:43 now i am sad Jun 30 19:48:57 i can't get linux on wm5 Jun 30 20:02:28 * Aria packages openmoko-libs and gsmd for PLD Linux Jun 30 20:03:06 somebody using fedora7 in here to build openmoko? Jun 30 20:07:50 DerCorny: hope you get better luck than i did Jun 30 20:10:03 ruimoreira: where did it die for you? ncurses? Jun 30 20:10:09 yeap Jun 30 20:10:15 damn Jun 30 20:10:47 the first to come up with an answer tells the other ok ? Jun 30 20:10:55 :P Jun 30 20:11:24 What issues are you having? Jun 30 20:11:33 ruimoreira: sure Jun 30 20:12:16 Aria: do you mean us ? Jun 30 20:12:23 Yes. Jun 30 20:12:37 I'm building on a modern RPMish distro. Not F7, but close enough to be useful. Jun 30 20:12:43 can't build development-image due to ngurses Jun 30 20:12:48 ncursrs Jun 30 20:12:49 http://www.dream-multimedia-tv.de/board/thread.php?postid=26642 <- that one Jun 30 20:12:50 :S Jun 30 20:12:52 damn Jun 30 20:13:04 their solution was to use fc6 Jun 30 20:13:06 DerCorny: install ncurses-devel? Jun 30 20:13:23 i have that installed Jun 30 20:13:27 Dvalin: Jun 30 20:14:24 i've that one installed, too Jun 30 20:14:34 okay Jun 30 20:14:38 but 5.6, not 5.4 Jun 30 20:16:51 What's the 'tic' executable there? (I'm not working on that code at the moment, so it's not handy) Jun 30 20:16:57 That's the terminfo compiler, ne? Jun 30 20:17:57 manpage says so Jun 30 20:18:30 computer says no... *cough* Jun 30 20:19:05 Whose tic is it? Jun 30 20:19:12 The devel kit's, or Fedora's? Jun 30 20:19:38 fedora's i guess Jun 30 20:19:59 'kay. Knowing would help figure it out. (does 'tic' run when you run just that?) Jun 30 20:19:59 Commands: counter (see estimated time until P1), counter_msg (set message for counter), faq (link to FAQ in wiki) Jun 30 20:20:52 Aria yes it runs it displays the options Jun 30 20:21:00 'kay. Hrm Jun 30 20:21:12 Lessee here. Jun 30 20:21:24 Got a link to what I'd need to start with to reproduce it? Jun 30 20:21:45 I'm in the middle of building host copies of the moko libs, so not running into the same problems Jun 30 20:22:42 i renamed fedora's tic ... still fails Jun 30 20:23:16 'kay. So it's internal to the dev kit. Fun. I hate it when people package dependencies rather than referring. Jun 30 20:23:53 ruimoreira: are you running x86_64? Jun 30 20:23:56 nop Jun 30 20:24:14 32 bit here :D Jun 30 20:24:43 k, then thats not one of the strange 64bit probs Jun 30 20:25:11 Yeah, missing symbol I wouldn't expect to be Jun 30 20:25:44 putting it to pastebin Jun 30 20:25:46 ... Jun 30 20:25:48 the error Jun 30 20:27:01 http://pastebin.com/939671 Jun 30 20:29:51 http://projects.linuxtogo.org/pipermail/openembedded-issues/2007-June/004240.html Jun 30 20:30:28 hum.... Jun 30 20:30:30 :) Jun 30 20:31:47 Ah, nice. That looks like the sort of hack I would create. Jun 30 20:33:22 where should i put the work-around ? Jun 30 20:33:50 command-line, before the commands you use to build the image or whatever Jun 30 20:34:03 ok Jun 30 20:34:04 the photos from heise are very nice: http://www.heise.de/bilder/91868/1/1 (2/1 3/1 4/1) Jun 30 20:34:12 should it be exported ? Jun 30 20:34:17 seems like it works for me Jun 30 20:34:33 yeah Jun 30 20:35:13 yo Jun 30 20:35:31 wah, the more pictures i see the more i want it Jun 30 20:36:28 ruimoreira: exported or provided on the same line as the command Jun 30 20:37:03 ok Jun 30 20:37:05 thks Jun 30 20:40:04 *sigh* i really hate boards ... google often has a hard time to index them. now we have a hackish solution for their problem and i cant send them a quick headsup without being forced to sign up Jun 30 20:40:48 anyone have a palm pda? Jun 30 20:41:02 preferably a colour one Jun 30 20:41:50 ewon: ask a more precise question :) Jun 30 20:43:11 anyone here have a zire 71 or better they want to test a superwaba app I wrote? Jun 30 20:43:17 can't find my sync cable :( Jun 30 20:43:49 oh, i don't have superwaba installed Jun 30 20:44:08 and don't have a sync cable either but i always used the SD card Jun 30 20:44:46 can you run stuff off the SD card? Jun 30 20:45:00 I have a Zire71, never seen that Jun 30 20:45:08 sure Jun 30 20:45:43 i actually never used any kind of sync cable, the plug was broken since i got the device Jun 30 20:45:52 I see Jun 30 20:46:05 is it some form of hack, or standard functionality Jun 30 20:46:37 standard functionality afaik, you just need to remember to copy the .prc's to the right directory on the card Jun 30 20:48:08 excellent, thanks Jun 30 20:49:44 i.e. /palm/Launcher Jun 30 20:50:03 does somebody know how long the battery lasts while phoning? Jun 30 20:54:49 i whould like to make a presentation on my local lug ....does anyone has any material such as presentation templates ?! Jun 30 20:55:13 evenin' Jun 30 20:55:38 fatal: corrupted pack file .git/objects/pack/pack-a146bcbc18f4826d6bf2a7f63be5dd77bbb5b2f5.pack Jun 30 20:55:44 wtf does that mean? Jun 30 20:56:01 and wtf is wrong with using svn... Jun 30 20:56:31 Needing a frelling server and crappy merges Jun 30 20:56:43 But it means you've got repo corruption. Jun 30 20:58:45 gah Jun 30 21:23:00 holtmann: ping Jun 30 21:23:31 hah, it appears superwaba vm has issues using bytecode from javacs later than 1.4 Jun 30 21:30:22 counter Jun 30 21:30:22 (last update 2007-06-30T13:10) http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter 60% for P1 in a week, a day 14:29:33 (8.604±1.0 days) (1655;242) Jun 30 21:32:53 Aiai, I want wifi. 3G is not a priority, since my whole city is Wifi-covered. But I need some clever people to make VPN software so I can connect to it... Hurry up and make it ready for October :D Jun 30 21:33:07 * TheAri waves from CDMA land. :( Jun 30 21:33:21 wifi? Jun 30 21:33:21 GTA02 (P1+/P1.5) will have WiFi (Atheros AR6K): http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ#Q:_What_is_the_rationale_behind_the_exclusion_of_WiFi.3F Jun 30 21:33:34 Viko: ^^ Jun 30 21:33:42 TheAri: poor you ;) Jun 30 21:33:57 TheAri: you could always install a pico cell in your house... Jun 30 21:34:34 Stephmw: That defeats the mobility factor quite a bit, especially given that the CDMA-ness is due to being a largely rural area and thus I spend most of my time away from the house. Jun 30 21:35:05 TheAri: ahhh, not much we can do then :( Jun 30 21:35:06 Stephmw: I know GTA02 will have wifi, that is why the VPN has to be finished when I buy it :P Jun 30 21:35:09 Stephmw: Am I correct, though, that much of the OpenMoko platform could be retargeted, given CDMA hardware and a CDMA analogue to gsmd, to my uses? Jun 30 21:35:09 TheAri: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.) Jun 30 21:35:32 (Obviously, given money, time, interest, and those two items) Jun 30 21:35:39 TheAri: I don't see why not, but I'm not really a hw guy Jun 30 21:35:43 Ah Jun 30 21:35:49 Viko: :) Jun 30 21:35:59 I'm waiting for the release to start hacking Java onto that baby Jun 30 21:36:10 * TheAri knows very little about mobile phone workings Jun 30 21:38:11 Stephmw: Got a link to get me started on the pico cell idea? Jun 30 21:38:35 * TheAri may as well read up so he can more effectively participate in conversations. :) Jun 30 21:38:52 Wants; Python, VPN, prettier case :) (yes, it could actually be even better, GTA3 :P ) Jun 30 21:39:13 DerCorny did you had any luck ? Jun 30 21:39:30 TheAri: that was more of a joke than anything, sorry ;) Jun 30 21:39:53 TheAri: it's typically far too expensive to get one unless you're a business in a GSM deadspot Jun 30 21:39:56 Stephmw: I kind of figured, but some jokes are more practical than others. :) Jun 30 21:41:44 ruimoreira: yeah, worked - but failed 5mins later in another package, so i gave up for today Jun 30 21:42:23 k Jun 30 21:46:34 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Talk:E17]] Jun 30 21:53:45 hey aloril, I know this might be way too difficult, but would it be possible to provide a link the page changed, when a wiki page changes? Jun 30 21:54:29 Poll on special:recentchanges Jun 30 21:54:32 on the wiki Jun 30 21:54:42 Or the RSS feed on the wiki Jun 30 21:55:18 SpeedEvil: ok, thanks. I just figured since there's an announcement anytime something gets changed, a link would be the next step. NOt a big deal Jun 30 21:55:42 Wiki links are rather long. Jun 30 21:55:51 Occasionally several change at once Jun 30 21:56:10 SpeedEvil: ok, that's fair Jun 30 21:57:13 mmmmm neo Jun 30 22:00:28 btw, is there or is there not a multi-touch (since i've heard both versions) Jun 30 22:01:58 No, not at the moment. Jun 30 22:02:02 Perhaps in a future device. Jun 30 22:02:54 ok, so it's not possible to do on current device? Jun 30 22:03:02 No. Jun 30 22:03:05 k Jun 30 22:03:14 I wish, but hey, cost and timetable. Jun 30 22:03:21 yeh Jun 30 22:24:11 4 months is way too long time to wait =( Jun 30 22:26:20 guys, i just bought milk that expires on: July 9th!! Jun 30 22:26:59 zomg? Jun 30 22:27:03 so? Jun 30 22:27:09 it's a sign :) Jun 30 22:27:15 oh rofl Jun 30 22:27:15 heheh Jun 30 22:27:30 are we getting to that already? Jun 30 22:27:57 why you buy milk in the middle of the night? ;) Jun 30 22:28:48 heheh Jun 30 22:29:34 I guess it's some sort of belgian thing... Jun 30 22:32:36 :P Jun 30 22:32:50 well, July 9th is _the_ day, anyway, even without Neo1973 release and stuff ;) Jun 30 22:33:02 I wish i could buy milk in the middle of the night Jun 30 22:33:20 almost every shop closes at 21 Jun 30 22:33:32 that's an hour later than here Jun 30 22:33:36 :OOO Jun 30 22:33:40 where? Jun 30 22:33:42 .de Jun 30 22:33:48 k Jun 30 22:34:10 gotta go to a petrol station if you want to buy anything afer 8pm Jun 30 22:34:44 is 'petrol station' a german term? or european? Jun 30 22:35:48 summatusmentis: not sure - it's in my dictionary, among terms like "gas station" and "fueling station" Jun 30 22:36:04 drath: as an american, I'm used to gas station. I'm just curious Jun 30 22:36:22 or, I guess to be more correct, as someone from the states Jun 30 22:36:35 guess it's british english Jun 30 22:36:53 i belive i learned "petrol" rather than "gas" Jun 30 22:36:57 +e Jun 30 22:37:12 huh, interesting. Jun 30 22:37:19 petrol is indeed English Jun 30 22:37:47 They do tend to teach british english rather than american english in europe Jun 30 22:38:07 There is only one English, from England ;) Jun 30 22:38:25 :P Jun 30 22:38:27 Basheri: well, that would make sense Jun 30 22:38:32 indeed Jun 30 22:38:49 But i prefer american :P Jun 30 22:38:50 Lots of Europeans have American accents though from watching TV Jun 30 22:39:05 probably because of the movies etc. Jun 30 22:39:24 any superwaba heads awake? Jun 30 22:39:30 so they'll get taught british english, but use an american accent? Jun 30 22:39:50 I suppose so, but probably pick up the slang from TV Jun 30 22:39:57 ewon: I saw you mention that last night, I think. Is it just a build system? Jun 30 22:39:58 no, lots of Europeans have American accents that they acquire from the Swedes Jun 30 22:40:11 lardman: makes sense Jun 30 22:40:15 They ought to spell colour correctly though :D ;) Jun 30 22:40:19 ewon: no idea, but I'll be on the lookout Jun 30 22:40:38 summatusmentis: small java vm aimed at PDAs Jun 30 22:40:54 rapid development, but damned if I can get it to work on my Palm :) Jun 30 22:41:06 ah, ok. I looked at the site, and it looked like a build system Jun 30 22:41:16 btw. superwaba is not free software Jun 30 22:41:33 it's GPL'd, last I looked Jun 30 22:41:33 well, actually people from germany have german accent rather than american and same goes for other countries too ;) Jun 30 22:41:52 ewon: oh, that's cool Jun 30 22:41:53 * drath speaks english with a bavarian accent... :-P Jun 30 22:42:06 they have a payware version as well Jun 30 22:42:33 * Basheri tries not to speak english with finnish accent (since it sucks :P ) Jun 30 22:42:56 well, their site doesn't look like a website of an opensource project Jun 30 22:42:57 drath: any idea as to the cost of living, overall in .de vs. .us? Jun 30 22:43:28 summatusmentis: a friend of mine is just about to return after spending almost a year in the states Jun 30 22:43:37 summatusmentis: according to him it aint that much of a difference Jun 30 22:44:05 ah, they moved the development resources to sourceforge, that's nice Jun 30 22:44:08 summatusmentis: like fresh vegetables are more expensive where you live, but you pay only half for gas Jun 30 22:44:30 drath: cool. I'm looking at 'study abroad' options through my college i'll be attending. And since I can pay the same tuition rates, it's just cost of living I'd be dealing with. Jun 30 22:44:46 except the CVS link doesn't resolve :) Jun 30 22:44:54 summatusmentis: beer is a lot better here, and much cheaper ;) Jun 30 22:45:13 summatusmentis: with beer being my friend's number one complaint about usa Jun 30 22:45:19 :DDD Jun 30 22:45:22 drath: I have no idea what better means, as I'm only 18 :-) Jun 30 22:45:40 summatusmentis: ah, yeah, well, you're legally entitled to drink as much as you can stand here Jun 30 22:45:45 (legal sge in most of europe) Jun 30 22:45:50 *age Jun 30 22:45:50 well, you would have an idea if you lived in germany :p Jun 30 22:45:58 lol Jun 30 22:46:13 as a German I doubt you will appreciate american beer Jun 30 22:46:49 german beer <3 Jun 30 22:46:54 indeed Jun 30 22:47:29 and ofcourse there's bavarian beer > german beer > * Jun 30 22:47:29 summatusmentis: what is in a bottle of "air gas"? i saw it on american choppers the other day... is it compressed air or oxigen or somethng else? Jun 30 22:48:03 miip: air gas? I have no idea, american choppers is the motocycle show? Jun 30 22:48:37 summatusmentis: yes the motorcycle show Jun 30 22:49:02 zomg, I'm getting more then 2 times my minimum legal salary :D Jun 30 22:49:11 miip: honestly, i have no idea Jun 30 22:49:27 I've never heard that term, what were they using it for? Jun 30 22:49:50 its in the background all the time ^^ Jun 30 22:50:22 miip: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_gas - no idea if that's what they meant Jun 30 22:50:35 miip: compressed air really... they use it for what exactly? Jun 30 22:51:23 the bottle... how did they use it? Jun 30 22:52:11 Night all Jun 30 22:52:41 night Jun 30 22:52:44 i have no idea, it stands there all the time Jun 30 22:52:52 n8 Jun 30 22:53:17 miip: americans are weird :-P Jun 30 22:53:41 yes indeed ^^ Jun 30 22:54:18 compressed air cans can be used for cleaning purposes Jun 30 22:54:23 naaah, you-rope-eans are weird... Jun 30 22:54:30 well, but it wouldn't be labelled air gas... Jun 30 22:54:32 ... USians are just _strange_ Jun 30 22:54:41 * Stephmw hides Jun 30 22:54:50 Stephmw: candian? :-P Jun 30 22:54:56 i just don't get the american censorship Jun 30 22:55:02 it's so lame :DDD Jun 30 22:55:09 summatusmentis: I'm weirder still Jun 30 22:55:10 Basheri: on what level? Jun 30 22:55:30 summatusmentis: I'm a frenchie that's spent the last 20 years in the UK Jun 30 22:55:50 with a german name? Jun 30 22:55:57 summatusmentis: any? *cough* ;) Jun 30 22:56:03 Basheri: I would argue on the local leve, and perhaps even on the state level, there is very little censorship Jun 30 22:56:27 LuitvD: that part's supposedly Russian... 5th generation Frenchie Jun 30 22:56:40 LuitvD: I really should stick my family tree online one day Jun 30 22:56:47 summatusmentis: it's probably not nearly as bad as the us manage to make themself look to the outside world Jun 30 22:56:48 meslin > russian? Jun 30 22:56:50 summatusmentis: on every level... over-beep swear words, blur private parts etc. Jun 30 22:57:04 and, even in the scheme of censorship, nationally, citizens themselves, aren't censored Jun 30 22:57:15 Stephmw: Weber sounds german to me :P Jun 30 22:57:17 LuitvD: Weber->Russian (at least the family member that held it was)... Meslin -> French (Normandy) Jun 30 22:57:26 Basheri: that sort of thing doesn't happen when something is nationally televised, or broadcasted? Jun 30 22:57:32 LuitvD: he may have changed his name to blend in Jun 30 22:58:00 drath: our government is stupid, that's very true, so yes, I'll agree that the appearance is likely much worse than what actually goes on Jun 30 22:58:09 stupid foreign names :S I never understand them... Jun 30 22:58:19 summatusmentis: unfortunately when we buy your shows, they're already cencored Jun 30 22:58:29 s Jun 30 22:58:51 Basheri: ok, that's fair. Americans tend to freak out about... taboo subject matter... swearing, nudity, etc. Jun 30 22:59:12 trying to keep that sort of stuff from getting into the hands of children, and the religious right wing ;-) Jun 30 22:59:12 Stephmw: my name is weirder though :P Jun 30 22:59:13 yeh, and we find it very odd =) Jun 30 22:59:27 LuitvD: agreed! :) Jun 30 22:59:39 Stephmw: and you don't even know mine :P Jun 30 22:59:43 (or do you?) Jun 30 22:59:53 LuitvD: I have problems with official forms... firstname+2 middle names+2 surnames Jun 30 22:59:56 it's in your /whois Jun 30 22:59:57 LuitvD: /whois LuitvD Jun 30 22:59:59 hehehe Jun 30 23:00:01 ah Jun 30 23:00:10 * LuitvD forgets things like that Jun 30 23:00:18 that's alright, I do too Jun 30 23:00:22 i think it's hypocritical to censor boobs.. Since everyone has even sucked those Jun 30 23:00:23 Im in ur m4chin3, pwn1ng ur nam3 Jun 30 23:00:33 Stephmw: same here. Especially with portugese names Jun 30 23:00:42 Basheri: LOL!! Jun 30 23:00:55 our society is... conservative about things like that Jun 30 23:00:59 :D Jun 30 23:01:09 LuitvD: I didn't realise the van part was Portuguese? I thought it was Dutch? Jun 30 23:01:46 Stephmw: it is, I was talking about some portugese names I have to deal with at work Jun 30 23:01:52 * Stephmw stops sucking the nipple Jun 30 23:01:55 Basheri: hmmm? Jun 30 23:02:01 LuitvD: ahh :) Jun 30 23:02:09 :P Jun 30 23:02:22 lol Jun 30 23:02:29 summatusmentis: that's why I do my bit to reintroduce the wording into common usage Jun 30 23:02:39 summatusmentis: on laptops: nipple + strokepad Jun 30 23:03:08 * Stephmw strokes the nipple... or was that tweaks the pad? Jun 30 23:03:18 Stephmw: ?? Jun 30 23:03:20 I'm confused Jun 30 23:04:09 laptops: nipple == scroll nub && strokepad == touchpad, I assume Jun 30 23:04:18 summatusmentis: right :) Jun 30 23:04:26 I was so lost there for a minute Jun 30 23:04:30 summatusmentis: I pretended to be confused and mixed up the terms :) Jun 30 23:04:42 lol, ok Jun 30 23:04:59 in dutch, a 'nippel' (pronounced like nipple) is a type of fastening clip/screw/nail/whatever Jun 30 23:06:26 so it'd be rather painful to suck on then? Jun 30 23:06:30 XD Jun 30 23:06:48 it's nearly always made of metal Jun 30 23:07:08 http://www.speedcomposites.com/fotosgerben/nippel-doors.JPG Jun 30 23:07:20 that shiny part Jun 30 23:08:08 the things used to fasten and adjust spokes in a wheel are called 'nippel' here Jun 30 23:09:13 LuitvD: I don't even know what that'd be called in english... hrm Jun 30 23:09:22 me neither :P Jun 30 23:09:45 lol Jun 30 23:10:20 there's a german song by Mike Krueger about a nippel and a clip/flap/hanger... the poor guy always had problems handling the nipple, resulting in a parachute not opening and in the end even heaven's gates wouldn't open ;) Jun 30 23:10:52 : Jun 30 23:10:54 :D Jun 30 23:10:58 clipping a nippel: http://www.burtoncar.com/dms_temp/image-cache/devmap-devmap_prd-dbo-prd_handleidingafbeelding_00000-handl_afbeelding_00000-handl_id-87-0-0-800-0-0-0--0.jpg Jun 30 23:10:59 XD Jun 30 23:11:05 ouch Jun 30 23:12:09 grr... firefox is being unresponsive again :-/ Jun 30 23:12:19 damn AT&T site Jun 30 23:12:45 not hard to choose between nippel-tweaking and nipple-tweaking Jun 30 23:12:46 :P Jun 30 23:13:34 anyway, enough of that bullshit :) I'm going to sleep Jun 30 23:13:42 lol, goodnight LuitvD Jun 30 23:13:52 (dreaming about either nippels or nipples... or just nothing at all) Jun 30 23:14:01 (or the Neo ofcourse :P ) Jun 30 23:14:09 nipples on the neo? Jun 30 23:14:25 possibly even that Jun 30 23:14:27 heh, yeah, just realized that anything i'd do to my source at this point probably wouldn'd help by the time i looked at it tomorrow Jun 30 23:14:45 'night all Jun 30 23:15:29 hrm... I wish I had coding skill :-/ Jun 30 23:16:20 skill is something you can train - and coding is definitely something you only learn by doing Jun 30 23:16:47 summatusmentis: never a bad time to get started Jun 30 23:16:52 drath: well, right. It sort of requires a way to learn it, a project or something Jun 30 23:17:09 formal education definitely helps, but i've seen people studying it failing miserably because they lacked enthusiasm Jun 30 23:17:11 I've got basic C/C++ stuff, but nothing near the skill required for this, or angstrom Jun 30 23:17:11 pick something interesting, start fixing bugs, submit patches Jun 30 23:17:25 you learn a lot from the critique Jun 30 23:17:35 critique? Jun 30 23:17:40 criticism ;) Jun 30 23:17:46 people slagging off your patches :) Jun 30 23:18:06 lol, I guess I missed that Jun 30 23:18:42 and I think at the level the software is at currently, i'd just be hindrance Jun 30 23:18:51 naaah, never Jun 30 23:19:07 code can always do with improvements... comments are always nice to have for instance Jun 30 23:19:16 and you'll be writing lots to understand what the code does Jun 30 23:19:23 might as well make a patch :) Jun 30 23:19:49 then get yelled at for increasing the size of the codebase :-P Jun 30 23:20:58 by one dev, and praised by others for doing something they keep telling themselves they'll do 'someday' Jun 30 23:20:58 summatusmentis: you can always count on people knowing a lot more than you taking worse beating for their code Jun 30 23:21:32 drath: how so? Jun 30 23:21:54 anyway, even the pros make mistakes... my last one was last year... only started getting regression test errors 3 months ago Jun 30 23:21:58 ... woops Jun 30 23:22:14 summatusmentis: the more people read your code the more are going to criticice you Jun 30 23:22:43 drath: well, that makes sense Jun 30 23:23:01 summatusmentis: but in the end that's what generates code quality Jun 30 23:23:08 summatusmentis: noone's going to write perfect code Jun 30 23:23:33 summatusmentis: so you're best off having your code reviewed by as many people as possible Jun 30 23:23:52 the issue really becomes the level of the code needing to be written Jun 30 23:24:02 for instance, I only sort of understand pointers, and how to use them Jun 30 23:24:20 summatusmentis: oh, is that all? Jun 30 23:24:31 like I said, basic C/C++ stuff Jun 30 23:24:33 summatusmentis: LOTS of people have the same problem Jun 30 23:24:39 there'll always be people happy to answer those questions Jun 30 23:24:40 summatusmentis: I'm pointer-dyslexic for instance Jun 30 23:24:50 summatusmentis: most of the time it 'just works' Jun 30 23:25:07 summatusmentis: other times, peer review catches my misunderstandings Jun 30 23:25:17 ... Java pampers me far too much Jun 30 23:25:45 So one thing, this gps chip is good for... produce randomness ;o) Jun 30 23:25:54 hehehe Jun 30 23:25:56 probably very good randomness ;-) Jun 30 23:26:01 haha Jun 30 23:26:19 Stephmw: mm... yeah, I've never writen for pointers, just read pointer'd code. object orientation is another something that I understand in concept, but haven't run into needing to use Jun 30 23:27:15 thankfully, there's not a whole lot of embedded code that is OO Jun 30 23:27:16 heh, object orientation, isn't that something that takes only minutes to use and a lifetime to master? ;) Jun 30 23:27:25 OO-like, yes, but it's bastardised OO Jun 30 23:27:57 Stephmw: ok, that's probably true. I guess I've been speaking generally Jun 30 23:28:06 summatusmentis: :) Jun 30 23:28:19 summatusmentis: you know this whole discussion is just leading to you submitting a patch :) Jun 30 23:28:23 summatusmentis: just accept it Jun 30 23:28:29 Elrond, not for cryptographic apps though; an enemy with a similar receiver will get your randomness too... Jun 30 23:28:46 (well, approx.) Jun 30 23:29:04 just take the last bit then... that's approximately good enough ;) Jun 30 23:29:08 Stephmw: lol, I know I know. I'm actually looking at the code for mb-applet-wireless shortly, as it segfaults in angstrom. Maybe this'll pertain to openmoko? Jun 30 23:29:11 mjr - Well, for cryptographic use, you only use a very few least significatn bits. Jun 30 23:29:14 mjr: see him, shoot him? Jun 30 23:29:36 summatusmentis: it'll certainly do so for the wifi edition Jun 30 23:30:17 unless it's something about the angstrom setup that's making it segfault, but hey, it's worth a shot Jun 30 23:30:30 mjr - The attacker would need to be very close to you and monitor you moving the neo. ;) Jun 30 23:30:51 mjr - In which case go with Stephmw ;o) Jun 30 23:31:35 you might want to start trying to hit him with a stick, as shooting people is regarded as being kind of rude in many places around the world Jun 30 23:31:36 LOL: from an iphone review: "the phone ended up tossing all my mail into a single container. Received messages. Sent messages. Everything." Jun 30 23:31:50 * Stephmw eyes his 3k emails Jun 30 23:32:04 3k??? why? Jun 30 23:32:16 googlemail.... moto is don't delete, search! Jun 30 23:32:28 hehe Jun 30 23:32:34 * drath never deleted a single mail... Jun 30 23:32:39 moto is "let google use your mail" ;o) Jun 30 23:32:41 ah, I see. I pop my gmail to my computer Jun 30 23:32:58 Elrond: google's welcome to my mailing list subscriptions :D Jun 30 23:33:09 Stephmw - ;o) Jun 30 23:33:22 * Stephmw pats adblock Jun 30 23:33:29 no ads on my gmail either Jun 30 23:33:46 I tried to do that... and it blocked the entire interface Jun 30 23:33:57 I haven't checked since I went to adblock+ Jun 30 23:33:57 yeah, gotta be selective Jun 30 23:34:32 counter? Jun 30 23:34:33 "/msg aloril counter?" for actual long message, giving short version here: (last update 2007-06-30T13:10) http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter 60% for P1 in a week, a day 12:25:23 (8.518±1.0 days) (1656;242) Jun 30 23:34:36 I never tried gmail... Jun 30 23:34:53 I use it for my domain Jun 30 23:35:03 it's quite good, i use it and have been very pleased Jun 30 23:35:07 so, are there any open moko gurus around that can help me figure out why my patched scripts are not working? (download.sh and flash.sh) Jun 30 23:35:11 great for when the corporate proxy barfs and blocks ssh Jun 30 23:35:15 http://dev.damaestro.us/openmoko/ Jun 30 23:37:56 * summatusmentis leaves to go buy pepsi for his mother. Be back in a few Jun 30 23:39:08 :O Jun 30 23:39:12 coke > pepsi Jun 30 23:40:12 juice > coke || pepsi Jun 30 23:40:18 water > coke Jun 30 23:40:31 tea > water Jun 30 23:40:39 coffee ~= tea Jun 30 23:40:49 coffee > tea Jun 30 23:41:22 oh, and vodka >> coffee Jun 30 23:41:23 :P Jun 30 23:41:35 is tea as much of a diuretic as coffee? Jun 30 23:41:46 It's the caffeine, so it's probably about the same Jun 30 23:41:50 i mean i speak while at my favorite cafe.. drinking an iced quad latte.. but still Jun 30 23:41:51 lol Jun 30 23:41:54 koskenkorva > vodka Jun 30 23:41:55 ahh ok Jun 30 23:42:35 Tea is amazing. Relaxing and awakening at the same time... Jun 30 23:42:44 Like taking extacy and sleeping pills. Jun 30 23:42:46 Has anyone here attempted to build openmoko on 64bit gentoo? Jun 30 23:42:52 And on that bombshell, its time to end the show, and go to bed. Jun 30 23:45:03 schonstal, i've had issues with x86_64 fedora 7 Jun 30 23:45:10 I'm one of the developers for the media player for the OLPC, and a couple of us were interested in getting something working with OpenMoko Jun 30 23:45:13 schonstal, well.. i seem to not be able to build the NAND Jun 30 23:45:23 schonstal, OLPC++ Jun 30 23:45:27 Indeed Jun 30 23:45:30 night all :) Jun 30 23:45:38 schonstal, i've package up qemu-neo1973 for fedora 7 Jun 30 23:45:42 schonstal, ;-) Jun 30 23:47:26 schonstal: you might have more joy asking weekdays 4pm GMT onwards Jun 30 23:47:39 schonstal: bit dead this late :) Jun 30 23:47:58 Yeah, it's about 5pm on saturday here Jun 30 23:48:08 West coast US Jun 30 23:48:20 of course, there's always the mailing list, but it's a little noisy atm Jun 30 23:48:27 ahhh, yeah, figures Jun 30 23:48:32 schonstal, nice... where? Jun 30 23:48:35 schonstal, Denver here Jun 30 23:48:54 daMaestro: Corvallis, OR Jun 30 23:48:58 cool Jun 30 23:49:16 i've started poking more at OLPC (/me notes cloak) Jun 30 23:49:48 i'm also the primary developer for revisor.. and it is my understanding we will be doing some direct coding for OLPC to "spin" images Jun 30 23:49:52 ahhh, another RHatter? Jun 30 23:50:07 Yeah, I work for the OSU OSL Jun 30 23:51:14 make[1]: *** [cpu-exec.o] Error 1 Jun 30 23:51:34 /builddir/build/BUILD/qemu-neo1973/cpu-exec.c: In function `cpu_arm_exec': Jun 30 23:51:40 /builddir/build/BUILD/qemu-neo1973/cpu-exec.c:757: error: bp cannot be used in asm here Jun 30 23:51:47 awesome.. that is when building for 32bit f7 Jun 30 23:53:15 I think I'd heard qemu was temperamental to build Jun 30 23:54:13 is that with gcc 3? is it perhaps heavily patched? Jun 30 23:55:04 has anyone talked about, or found a suitable vm for when the neo gets released? Jun 30 23:55:17 balrog-kun, it is with gcc 3.4.4 Jun 30 23:55:22 summatusmentis: vm? Jun 30 23:55:28 summatusmentis: vm in which context? Jun 30 23:55:31 robster: sorry, java vm Jun 30 23:55:41 summatusmentis: why would you want java? Jun 30 23:55:45 lol Jun 30 23:55:48 exactly Jun 30 23:55:54 python++ Jun 30 23:55:56 shush! Jun 30 23:56:04 daMaestro: why would you want python ? Jun 30 23:56:10 summatusmentis: there are at least 3 that can be used Jun 30 23:56:18 well, generally speaking, there are a large number of 3rd party apps that use java Jun 30 23:56:19 summatusmentis: they just lack UI integration Jun 30 23:56:22 robster, why would you *not* ;-) Jun 30 23:56:23 lol Jun 30 23:56:26 actually i would love perl Jun 30 23:56:41 but i saw mention of some other language you guys are promoting Jun 30 23:56:44 another something i wish I knew how to do :-) Jun 30 23:56:50 summatusmentis: Sun's J2SE (bit too big), Sun's phoneME, and the various VMs that GNU Classpath supports Jun 30 23:56:57 daMaestro: i think python rocks, but its just not suitable for embedded devices Jun 30 23:57:04 yeah, it is heavy Jun 30 23:57:09 summatusmentis: it'll be done, never fear Jun 30 23:57:22 robster, i plan on building my own custom images that do what i want Jun 30 23:57:28 Stephmw: ok, I was just curious Jun 30 23:57:30 summatusmentis: I'll likely take part, but I can't until August 11 Jun 30 23:57:41 robster, an image with little to nothing but python is one i am looking at doing ;-) Jun 30 23:57:55 Stephmw: cool! Jul 01 00:00:03 yeah, custom images are my interest too Jul 01 00:00:10 * Stephmw admits to being into Java Jul 01 00:00:16 daMaestro: the problem is the memory allocator Jul 01 00:00:34 python++ Jul 01 00:01:08 robster, thanks for the details, i'm going to do this stuff with my qemu device ;-) Jul 01 00:01:19 my real device will only get the love of the community Jul 01 00:01:30 i'm going to love my virtual device and try to commit bits for review Jul 01 00:01:43 i'm really not sure why people are not keen on C Jul 01 00:01:52 C is great Jul 01 00:02:02 I prefer C++, cleaner Jul 01 00:02:07 the point, is it will be fun to hack around with python on such limited hardware Jul 01 00:02:28 robster: it's just too damn easy to fuck up in C Jul 01 00:02:48 C is nice, and it's fast, but it's not as easy to write Jul 01 00:03:01 no, but that is why it's nice and fast Jul 01 00:03:02 lol Jul 01 00:03:06 Stephmw: how? Jul 01 00:03:14 not everyone and their "sams learn in 5 minutes" can write usable code Jul 01 00:03:25 tru Jul 01 00:03:58 robster: because even with linting, purify/etc and great QA, it's still fairly easy to make mistakes Jul 01 00:04:29 robster: and the place I work in we have a boatload of QA Jul 01 00:04:43 robster: it just removes the simple fuckups :) Jul 01 00:04:44 Stephmw: hehe, purify... this nice rational/IBM software Jul 01 00:04:57 robster: whatever is left is a headache to deal with Jul 01 00:05:11 zecke: it's a pretty gui :) Jul 01 00:05:42 zecke: we use the tools mendated by the company in the end... and it sure isn't OSS Jul 01 00:05:48 *mandated Jul 01 00:06:19 well, they mandate them because they paid for them.. it doesn't mean there isn't something better ;-) Jul 01 00:06:21 one day I should run sloccount on the codebase Jul 01 00:06:29 it makes sense to use such a software, I prefer valgrind Jul 01 00:06:53 daMaestro: it's also tightly integrated into all our processes, almost painless (if slow) to use Jul 01 00:07:24 * Stephmw hugs the buildfarm Jul 01 00:07:31 Stephmw, i just take every chance i get to stab at using software because you had to pay for it Jul 01 00:07:32 lol Jul 01 00:08:08 only takes 45mins these days Jul 01 00:08:59 ok.. i'll ask more direct questions.. and hope some random hacker is listening Jul 01 00:09:06 has anyone been able to build 2352? Jul 01 00:09:54 it fails to build for me on x86 but builds on x86_64, however creating the NAND just runs away Jul 01 00:10:52 2344 built on x86 also, but building the NAND just ran away Jul 01 00:10:58 or flashing it.. i should say Jul 01 00:11:43 daMaestro: nah, I completely understand your stabs - I make them internally too. Corporations just have insanely irrational fears... that and it's much easier to authorise purchases rather than in-house development time... Jul 01 00:11:54 ... but I'll stop moaning, 6 weeks and I'll be a free FREEE man Jul 01 00:20:34 g'night! Jul 01 00:23:12 anyone on at&t in the US? Jul 01 00:23:30 I am Jul 01 00:23:39 don't use data though Jul 01 00:23:47 too expensive Jul 01 00:24:00 Q_Continuum: oh, ok Jul 01 00:24:18 yeah, i might go data only and then try doing tunneled voip Jul 01 00:24:19 I'm wondering about the MEdia bundles Jul 01 00:24:32 but i will end up doing two prepay plans to start... ;-) Jul 01 00:24:33 I guess I am now; I had cingular but I think they're switching Jul 01 00:24:39 they did Jul 01 00:24:48 * Q_Continuum was AT&T, then Cingular, and now AT&T again Jul 01 00:24:52 one, a real number.. and then another data plan I know i am going to be banned from Jul 01 00:24:52 lol Jul 01 00:24:56 daMaestro: why two prepay? Jul 01 00:24:58 But I also don't have data, it's really expensive Jul 01 00:24:59 oh Jul 01 00:25:07 summatusmentis, most likely try att and tmobile Jul 01 00:25:21 daMaestro: yeah Jul 01 00:25:26 Yeah, I also went AT&T -> Cingular -> AT&T Jul 01 00:25:50 at&t just bought one of the companies that provides service where I'll be going to college, so I might be able to get 'native' coverage out there Jul 01 00:27:13 is anyone using the qemu build with gcc> 3.4.4 Jul 01 00:27:23 err s/>// Jul 01 00:28:16 I'm using 4.1.1, but I haven't gotten it to build yet Jul 01 00:28:40 Oh Jul 01 00:28:52 it is known not working with 4.x Jul 01 00:29:07 at least that is what i take from http://wiki.openmoko.org/Qemu Jul 01 00:29:36 schonstal, do you do any packaging? (taking into account you are active with OLPC) Jul 01 00:30:05 afaik, OLPC uses rpm (from observations with regards to yum on OLPC and the fact revisor is being looked at) Jul 01 00:30:21 I haven't built any rpms, no Jul 01 00:30:26 darn Jul 01 00:30:42 ok, i'm trying to square away what i have going on.. but yeah, afaik: gcc 4.x wont work Jul 01 00:30:58 Activities have their own bundle format, but I wasn't the one who made the bundle Jul 01 00:30:59 oops, http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Qemu Jul 01 00:31:16 schonstal, yea.. activities are brilliant Jul 01 00:32:59 Oh, it does say GCC 3.x is required :/ Jul 01 00:33:10 I guess I'll try that next Jul 01 00:35:14 any of you at&t users(I know not data) do you know if the MEdia bundles are wap? Jul 01 00:35:24 WAP ... yuck Jul 01 00:35:31 WAP-- Jul 01 00:45:21 ooops.. and i'm using gcc 3.4.6 Jul 01 01:00:07 daMaestro: is it patched with something like selinux maybe? Jul 01 01:00:21 daMaestro: any error messages? Jul 01 01:00:32 how does the flashing fail? Jul 01 01:00:38 it might be selinux Jul 01 01:00:43 balrog-kun, it times out... Jul 01 01:00:46 thus never finishes Jul 01 01:00:56 qemu just runs and runs and runs Jul 01 01:01:10 hmm, i had one more report of qemu stalling, i think, without even starting the emulation Jul 01 01:01:12 i left it for ~30 minutes on a 3.2GHz dual core x86_64 Jul 01 01:01:18 but i'm unable to reproduce it Jul 01 01:01:27 to even see a backtrace or anything Jul 01 01:01:54 it was not qemu-neo1973 specific Jul 01 01:01:55 well i have it built.. and it "runs" but when i get to the point where i need to flash the virtual NAND.. it seems to just not work Jul 01 01:02:20 yeah, that's where it should emulate the neo1973 for the first time Jul 01 01:02:43 is there any way i can test that the qemu "stuff" is working? Jul 01 01:02:53 and a person reported that it stalls somewhere, but i have no machines on which this could be reproduced Jul 01 01:03:18 daMaestro: hmmm does simply running arm-softmmu/qemu-system-arm print the help message and exit? Jul 01 01:03:29 that would be the most basic functionality :p Jul 01 01:03:33 well.... i've package stuff Jul 01 01:03:37 i'll test if it works Jul 01 01:03:47 ok Jul 01 01:03:56 * balrog-kun would love to see a backtrace Jul 01 01:03:57 [jon@damaestro ~]$ qemu-neo1973-system-arm Jul 01 01:03:58 QEMU PC emulator version 0.9.0, Copyright (c) 2003-2007 Fabrice Bellard Jul 01 01:03:58 usage: qemu [options] [disk_image] Jul 01 01:04:04 [...] etc Jul 01 01:04:08 you that looks okay Jul 01 01:04:39 if you have a serious interest in this.. i can get you access to the build machine Jul 01 01:05:30 does qemu-system-arm -kernel /bin/ls do something sensible or just stall too? Jul 01 01:05:42 possibly with -M neo Jul 01 01:06:00 testing Jul 01 01:06:44 jon@damaestro ~]$ qemu-neo1973-system-arm -M neo -kernel /bin/ls Jul 01 01:06:44 Could not initialize SDL - exiting Jul 01 01:06:52 i guess i need to do x11 forwarding Jul 01 01:06:54 give me a moment Jul 01 01:07:32 ah, yes, unless you pass -nographic too Jul 01 01:07:37 I have never been able to get x11 forwarding up Jul 01 01:07:48 summatusmentis: with qemu or generally? Jul 01 01:07:56 This platform requires 134221824 bytes of memory Jul 01 01:08:07 daMaestro: oops, right "-m 130" Jul 01 01:08:14 balrog-kun: generally Jul 01 01:08:21 Segmentation fault Jul 01 01:08:35 daMaestro: that's interesting Jul 01 01:08:36 never tried qemu, and hearing all the issues people are having, i don't think I"m gonna try soon Jul 01 01:08:46 summatusmentis, ssh -Y Jul 01 01:08:56 some use ssh -X Jul 01 01:09:05 -X is more secure, but works less often Jul 01 01:09:13 daMaestro: ah did you use -nographic this time? Jul 01 01:09:20 balrog-kun, yes Jul 01 01:09:27 i don't need to... Jul 01 01:09:30 i'm forwarding xll Jul 01 01:09:33 x11* Jul 01 01:09:34 can you try without it, with some kind of Xserver? Jul 01 01:09:48 doing so now Jul 01 01:09:50 SDL does deal very well with normal X forwarding for me Jul 01 01:10:14 balrog-kun, seg fault again Jul 01 01:10:25 is buildhost.openmoko.org down atm? Jul 01 01:10:42 daMaestro: ouch, do you have gdb handy, and an unstripped qemu? Jul 01 01:10:57 balrog-kun, i could install it Jul 01 01:11:05 balrog-kun, or i could just give you access ;-) Jul 01 01:11:31 daMaestro: is that machine running selinux? i'm wondering if that may have been the reson for the other person too Jul 01 01:11:41 yes, i'm running selinux Jul 01 01:11:43 selinux generally doesn't allow SMC, and that's what qemu is about Jul 01 01:11:46 i can set it to permissive Jul 01 01:12:01 but i don't know how it inflences the compiler, if at all Jul 01 01:12:01 well.. f7 is KVM focused... and kvm works Jul 01 01:12:09 oh, i build with mock Jul 01 01:12:13 which is basically chroot building Jul 01 01:12:22 ah okay Jul 01 01:12:39 i'm not sure about KVM, i think it bypasses the SMC Jul 01 01:13:37 do you want access to this machine? Jul 01 01:13:40 i just need your ssh key Jul 01 01:13:46 *pub key Jul 01 01:13:53 though i would expect selinux to print something like "permission denied, this attempt will be reported to x@y.z" rather then send a SIGSEGV Jul 01 01:14:19 daMaestro: well, yes, that would be interesting, give me a moment Jul 01 01:14:30 and appreciated, too Jul 01 01:14:53 well.. i would love to get these packages done, so i can get the packages into fedora and start to recruit more devs Jul 01 01:15:26 can i paste it to you in /msg? Jul 01 01:15:44 sure Jul 01 01:15:51 $ sudo qemu-neo1973-system-arm -M neo -m 130 -kernel /bin/ls Jul 01 01:15:51 Segmentation fault Jul 01 01:16:01 with selinux permissive.. sooo.. i don't blame selinux Jul 01 01:16:08 audit log looks clean too Jul 01 01:16:20 i don't have much idea about selinux Jul 01 01:17:57 it's not getting in the way Jul 01 01:18:00 * daMaestro does know about selinux Jul 01 01:18:34 i'm in, thanks, i will checkout the SVN and try to build it Jul 01 01:18:42 well Jul 01 01:18:45 ok Jul 01 01:18:48 you wont be able to Jul 01 01:19:15 i build in chroots for a reason.. so i don't litter the system with random packages Jul 01 01:19:44 /var/lib/mock/fedora-7-x86_64/result/*.log will have what i think you are looking for Jul 01 01:19:55 along with the packages... Jul 01 01:20:11 it is installed too, rpm -ql qemu-neo1973 Jul 01 01:20:17 it shouldn't need to touch anything outside a single subdirectory Jul 01 01:20:19 ah okay Jul 01 01:20:34 well.. none of the needed libs, etc are available on the main system Jul 01 01:20:49 you are welcome to pull svn, though Jul 01 01:20:59 compat-gcc is not installed so i doubt it will build Jul 01 01:23:27 what is compat-gcc for? Jul 01 01:30:42 for gcc 3.4.6 Jul 01 01:30:48 the system gcc is 4.1 Jul 01 01:31:04 if it would help to have all the tools installed, i can install them Jul 01 01:31:14 yum logs, so it's not like i can't remove them Jul 01 01:31:39 or if you want access to mock... you'd have to log back in but i can give you access to mock.. so you can fire off chroot builds of the packages i have Jul 01 01:32:03 balrog-kun, up to you Jul 01 01:32:13 balrog-kun, i prefer chroot building (it is just so much better) Jul 01 01:32:22 daMaestro: the rpm with the debuginfo should be enough Jul 01 01:32:34 is there some easy way to only unpack the file from an rpm? Jul 01 01:32:39 *files Jul 01 01:32:47 well.. they are installed Jul 01 01:33:00 rpm -ql qemu-neo1973 shows you where they are Jul 01 01:33:10 ah, thanks Jul 01 01:33:15 basically, you should be able to: openmoko-download Jul 01 01:33:20 and then: openmoko-flash Jul 01 01:33:34 openmoko-flash is what runs and runs and runs Jul 01 01:33:40 and then eventually hits the timeout Jul 01 01:34:07 it's not the debuginfo one that's installed, is it? Jul 01 01:34:11 do you want me to install qemu-neo1973-debuginfo? Jul 01 01:34:30 yes, that would be helpful Jul 01 01:34:52 ok.. installed Jul 01 01:35:11 thanks Jul 01 01:35:14 just let me know what other tools you might want installed Jul 01 01:35:21 i am going to setup the rpmbuild root in your /home Jul 01 01:36:01 ok.. in ~/rpmbuild is all that actually builds the rpm Jul 01 01:36:14 including my patches to download.sh and flash.sh Jul 01 01:37:26 the debuginfo package doesn't have the qemu-neo1973-system-arm executable accoring to rpm -ql Jul 01 01:37:55 i'm firing off a x86 build for you ... the results (which fail) will be in /var/lib/mock/fedora-7-i386/result/ Jul 01 01:37:56 i will scp an u-boot image over becaue the buildhost seems to be down at the moment Jul 01 01:38:03 have 4gb microsd cards been tested in the openmoko yet? Jul 01 01:38:12 thanks Jul 01 01:38:26 balrog-kun, 2344 builds for x86... 2352 doesn't Jul 01 01:38:38 balrog-kun, both 2344 and 2352 seem to build on x86_64 Jul 01 01:38:49 hmm new video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5D6i6vLlhGA Jul 01 01:38:56 daMaestro: with that "bp" error? Jul 01 01:38:59 i test only on x86_64 locally Jul 01 01:39:12 balrog-kun, qemu-neo1973-system-arm is provided by qemu-neo1973 Jul 01 01:39:30 daMaestro: yes, and this binary is stripped of debugging symbols Jul 01 01:39:34 *off Jul 01 01:39:43 which should be installed with the debug info? Jul 01 01:40:05 hmm it seems it didn't? Jul 01 01:40:33 that might be a packaging error... i'll just install the build requires Jul 01 01:40:45 at least "file" says it's stripped :p Jul 01 01:41:26 ok.. build deps are being installed now Jul 01 01:41:33 so you can build from an svn checkout Jul 01 01:41:34 however you want Jul 01 01:41:58 unless you are skilled with rpm... then i can just give you mock access (skilled with rpm being spec design) Jul 01 01:42:06 ok, build requires are installed Jul 01 01:42:18 you should be able to checkout from svn and build Jul 01 01:42:56 i'm not at all skilled with rpm, i'm afraid Jul 01 01:42:58 yeah.. buildhost seems down Jul 01 01:43:14 i think i last had redhat on my computer about 8 years ago :) Jul 01 01:43:14 openmoko-download is failing Jul 01 01:43:34 rpm is lame Jul 01 01:43:48 yeah yeah, how about #distro-wars for a while Jul 01 01:43:53 :DDD Jul 01 01:44:06 this is #openmoko.. and i'm trying to enable our userbase to add dev effort ;-) Jul 01 01:45:15 btw. the other person who's qemu wasn't working was on Ubuntu Jul 01 01:45:36 ok, i scp'ed over an u-boot and a kernel for Neo Jul 01 01:48:17 well.. building from svn checkout works Jul 01 01:48:26 just prefix to your ~ Jul 01 01:51:14 i'm building :-) Jul 01 01:53:43 oh damn, this was so simple Jul 01 01:54:20 (that is, the segfault, i still not sure why it would stall at flashing) Jul 01 01:55:34 so, is the segfault a real bug? (per checkout 2352? Jul 01 01:55:36 ) Jul 01 01:56:19 yes, but it's exposed only when runing without -usb Jul 01 01:56:25 ahh Jul 01 01:56:58 got a sample of the GTA02 -> http://www.milradio.com/Pictures/WW11/BC-611.jpg Jul 01 01:57:04 :-P Jul 01 01:57:13 Linux_Galore, MAhahahahahwhhwhw Jul 01 01:57:16 no way! Jul 01 01:57:16 Linux_Galore, nice Jul 01 01:57:19 that's GTA03! Jul 01 01:57:28 that is hot.. Jul 01 01:57:32 lol Jul 01 01:57:51 you know.. the first question i got about the neo1973 was if the user could use ham waves for transit Jul 01 01:58:04 openmoko: 03andrew * r2353 10/trunk/src/host/qemu-neo1973/hw/neo1973.c: Don't try to attach a Bluetooth dongle with USB disabled globally. Jul 01 01:58:54 i expect you should be able to Jul 01 01:58:56 Linux_Galore: that's how i imagine the 1973 phone, heh Jul 01 01:59:23 balrog-kun, ok.. so i should checkout this fix.. and rebuild? Jul 01 01:59:41 dont laugh I typed openmoko GTA02 into google images and thats what it gave me heh Jul 01 01:59:57 daMaestro: i will first try to reproduce the stall during flashing, unless you want to try anyway Jul 01 02:00:07 Linux_Galore: i wonder if it runs java games Jul 01 02:00:10 you are welcome to reproduce the issue Jul 01 02:00:18 it's not like we can't both work at the same time Jul 01 02:00:55 balrog-kun: naw thats the russian hardened version of the openmoko heh Jul 01 02:01:27 heh Jul 01 02:01:40 Linux_Galore: that's a phone with which you could kill Jul 01 02:02:14 (script) planet: Holger "zecke" Freyther: WebKit progress http://zecke.blogspot.com/2007/07/webkit-progress.html Jul 01 02:02:14 yeah, if you run out of ammo you can beat them to death with your phone Jul 01 02:04:24 daMaestro: it didn't stall, it flashed the images ok Jul 01 02:04:50 it's diplaying the pretty openmoko logo and the boot menu too :) Jul 01 02:05:05 hmmmmm Jul 01 02:05:23 then will you look at what i have wrong with openmoko-flash? Jul 01 02:06:07 okay, where does it expect the downloaded files to reside? Jul 01 02:06:18 pwd Jul 01 02:06:55 ok, updating qemu-neo1973 to 2353 Jul 01 02:07:10 ah, this indeed locks up Jul 01 02:07:38 ok, if you make what changes are needed, that would be sweet Jul 01 02:07:46 i'll generate my patches again and build 2353-2 Jul 01 02:07:53 2353 was just updated Jul 01 02:08:07 ok, it works if u-boot.bin is present in the current directory Jul 01 02:08:18 hmm is that hardcoded somewhere? Jul 01 02:08:25 this might have been not the best idea but it was supposed to be temporary Jul 01 02:08:37 yes, it is hardcoded, unfortunately Jul 01 02:08:41 ahhhh Jul 01 02:08:50 i tried to patch away all the nastyness Jul 01 02:08:50 lol Jul 01 02:09:05 you've got one more nastiness to patch :) Jul 01 02:09:22 or you can use a wrapper script that cd's to the right directory, but that's uglier Jul 01 02:09:37 ok, do you have a proposal? Jul 01 02:09:46 it's hardcoded in hw/neo1973.c Jul 01 02:09:47 * daMaestro accepts patches to patches lol Jul 01 02:10:14 you can rehardcode it to maybe /usr/share/something, but that's also slightly ugly Jul 01 02:10:31 yeah, the goal is to not ship and of the stuff that openmoko-download does Jul 01 02:10:42 just so i don't have to deal with pushing out updates ~daily Jul 01 02:11:34 if you change the path to be /usr/share/qemu-neo1973/u-boot.bin that should do it Jul 01 02:12:07 and make openmoko-flash produce an apropriate symlink (like the svn version does) Jul 01 02:12:41 or you want it to be runnable by non-root? Jul 01 02:13:09 non-root would be great Jul 01 02:13:19 that is why i switched to doing `pwd` stuff Jul 01 02:14:07 so i just need to symlink u-boot? Jul 01 02:14:57 in current directory, yes Jul 01 02:15:30 i'm thinking that the option_rom global could be reused for pointing at the u-boot image Jul 01 02:16:23 so.. just for now i'll symlink $uboot_image to u-boot.img Jul 01 02:17:03 ln -sf $uboot_image u-boot.bin Jul 01 02:17:29 sorry for the long paste Jul 01 02:17:59 sok Jul 01 02:18:11 i prefer going upstream with changes like that Jul 01 02:18:16 ah okay Jul 01 02:18:58 i'm not sure, perhaps not now, but generally the u-boot.bin hardcoded name was going to be replaced with something Jul 01 02:19:16 and thus, upstream ;-) Jul 01 02:19:28 you all will find a good solution Jul 01 02:19:59 i guess we should do what the PC does, i.e there's a small BIOS image in /usr/share/qemu that's never updated, and this one is loaded at start Jul 01 02:20:00 ahh stupid rsync eating bandwidth Jul 01 02:20:15 for neo this would be the lowlevel-foo file that's found on the buildhost Jul 01 02:20:47 it never changes and its task is loading the u-boot from the Flash, rather than passing an external u-boot everytime Jul 01 02:21:21 anyone have any idea when buildhost is going to be back up? Jul 01 02:22:05 does kernel need to be symlinked also? Jul 01 02:22:12 i see that is what you have done Jul 01 02:22:26 no, although openmoko/flash.sh does that for convenience Jul 01 02:23:07 yeah.. and i had patched that away Jul 01 02:23:07 lol Jul 01 02:23:31 and this one wasn't my idea :p Jul 01 02:24:11 it was suggested by the MokoMakefile maker to make things easier Jul 01 02:26:03 should i also add -usb to: qemu="qemu-neo1973-system-arm -M neo -m 130" ? Jul 01 02:26:21 or will >2353 deal with no -usb? Jul 01 02:27:15 ahh the emu() call adds it anyways Jul 01 02:28:28 yeah, that's why i never hit it Jul 01 02:29:52 basically without -usb the hardware configuration is different from that of a real Neo, because the real Neo always has USB disabled, that's why i thought i would attach the dongle anyway, except that arch code doesn't expose any USB host ports to connect the dongle to when this happens Jul 01 02:30:09 s/disabled/enabled/ Jul 01 02:30:09 balrog-kun meant: basically without -usb the hardware configuration is different from that of a real Neo, because the real Neo always has USB enabled, that's why i thought i would attach the dongle anyway, except that arch code doesn't expose any USB host ports to connect ... Jul 01 02:30:42 apt: not when the CPU is in slow mode. Jul 01 02:30:49 SpeedEvil: okay Jul 01 02:31:11 :) Jul 01 02:32:05 ok, any word on when buildhost will be back? so i can test everything? Jul 01 02:32:44 it's 4:35 AM at the buildhost's administrator's place Jul 01 02:34:01 oops balrog-kun i ran my cleanup scripts Jul 01 02:34:19 i just deleted what you have open (i didn't think to check to see if you were still logged in) Jul 01 02:34:20 sorry Jul 01 02:34:35 oops, i forgot i was on a remote computer heh Jul 01 02:34:53 well, i didn't have any useful changes Jul 01 02:35:01 ok, good... sorry Jul 01 02:35:07 i logged out, you can remove the login Jul 01 02:35:08 Where does the buildhost administrator live? Jul 01 02:35:15 balrog-kun, will do Jul 01 02:35:21 (the user stays.. i just remove the auth key) Jul 01 02:35:44 (Just wondering since it's 4:35AM here too ;) Jul 01 02:36:11 bonan: afaik, in Germany, but don't take my word for it Jul 01 02:37:10 Ah, okay Jul 01 02:40:40 cool, well once i can get some images to test flashing with.. i think these packages might be off for review Jul 01 02:41:44 ok, i'm off for dinner ... it's ~9pm here Jul 01 02:41:51 balrog-kun, thanks much Jul 01 02:42:01 daMaestro: thanks, too Jul 01 02:42:05 i'll be back in a little while Jul 01 02:42:20 balrog-kun, i'm going to push openmoko in the #fedora world.. so umm... we need it yum'able Jul 01 02:42:21 ;-) Jul 01 02:46:44 * balrog-kun forgot he left an Xvnc & running in the background on daMaestro's computer **** ENDING LOGGING AT Sun Jul 01 02:59:56 2007