**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Sun Jul 01 02:59:56 2007 Jul 01 03:53:18 openmoko: 03alphaone * r2354 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/applications/openmoko-footer/ (ChangeLog src/taskmenu.c src/taskmenu.h): Jul 01 03:53:18 openmoko: * src/taskmenu.c (moko_window_filter),(moko_taskmenu_init): Jul 01 03:53:18 openmoko: * src/taskmenu.h: Jul 01 03:53:18 openmoko: Implement window_filter; taskmenu is now updated on changes Jul 01 04:05:09 is OE failing for anyone else with sh: ipkg-build: command not found Jul 01 04:25:54 (script) openmoko-community: Sean Moss-Pultz Re: New Oceans Jul 01 04:27:26 i got the ipkg-build error with NOTE: package linux-libc-headers-2.6.18-r1: task do_package_write: failed Jul 01 04:50:37 I just wanted to ask a quick question. Is the openmoko phone expected to be a stable enough release for daily use as of the July 9th launch? Jul 01 04:50:37 cmgannon26: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.) Jul 01 04:53:25 would running openmoko under qemu give a reasonable environment to try building apps? Jul 01 04:53:26 AntonTakk: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.) Jul 01 04:56:08 buildhost.openmoko.org seems down, can anyone verify? Jul 01 05:00:31 AntonTakk: yep, down for me also Jul 01 05:06:34 (script) openmoko-announce: Sean Moss-Pultz [openmoko-announce] Re: New Oceans Jul 01 05:19:24 what is going on? Jul 01 05:19:46 OpenMoko is a company inside FIC Jul 01 05:26:20 jackey: openmoko is its own company Jul 01 05:26:22 spun off Jul 01 05:26:27 owned by fic (i assume) Jul 01 05:26:33 so? Jul 01 05:26:43 lay off lots of people? Jul 01 05:26:55 raster, where i can get neo advanced Jul 01 05:27:27 i am writing email to Sean right now. Jul 01 05:28:01 jackey: dunno any details - see sean's "new oceans" email Jul 01 05:28:31 will OpenMoko be able to mass production? Jul 01 05:28:36 heh very funny, wonder of we can hire them for a openmoko add http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=aae_1183244227 Jul 01 05:29:27 jackey: FIC the people making the openmoko already mass produce phones Jul 01 05:29:50 where does bitbake store it's resume information? Jul 01 05:30:24 Any way to get a debug board? Jul 01 05:30:31 and other info like which packages are installed and which aren't Jul 01 05:30:49 jackey: you can order it on july 9th from openmoko.com Jul 01 05:33:04 i was on hold a project Jul 01 05:33:32 i am from mobile enterprise. would like to promote NEO Jul 01 05:34:06 but, according to the "new oceans", I am thinking about drop this project. Jul 01 05:34:38 OpenMoko inside FIC, sounds a little bit wried too me. Jul 01 05:35:59 where else would openmoko be then? Jul 01 05:36:02 i think it's a good thing that they have a seperate company in the FIC group Jul 01 05:36:07 you would need funding to run such an operation Jul 01 05:36:13 makign phones isnt cheap or easy Jul 01 05:36:24 fic basically are no different tyo an "investor" Jul 01 05:36:26 to Jul 01 05:36:44 spinning it off as its own company is a great show of support and faith in the project Jul 01 05:38:04 what is OpenMoko target at right now? Jul 01 05:38:17 raster: you might get asked this alot, but, have any idea if/how well e17 would run on a neo? Jul 01 05:38:22 a product or just some hacking toy? Open a retail store for fun? Jul 01 05:39:45 AntonTakk: it should run ok. Jul 01 05:40:00 jackey: a product Jul 01 05:40:13 jackey: not vast quantities at the moment Jul 01 05:40:18 its just starting Jul 01 05:40:49 using community to build a product? Jul 01 05:41:39 some parts are developed by openmoko Jul 01 05:41:45 others by community Jul 01 05:41:55 not any different to redhat, suse, ubuntu etc. Jul 01 05:42:09 the difference is that openmoko ALSO make hardware Jul 01 05:42:15 unlike redhat/ubuntu/suse etc. Jul 01 05:42:16 come on, develop a product without a promised time. Jul 01 05:42:34 they do have a promised release date Jul 01 05:42:36 july 9th Jul 01 05:42:58 Why does this channel attract so many trolls. Jul 01 05:43:13 i am not talk about BSP ready product. I am talking about real phone product. Jul 01 05:43:37 There is a release date in october for that too. Jul 01 05:43:38 july 9 is a real phone Jul 01 05:43:42 not a developer board Jul 01 05:43:50 For end users. Jul 01 05:43:59 the software may be primitive Jul 01 05:44:00 thats mass market Jul 01 05:44:05 SpeedEvil, nice to meet you again. Jul 01 05:44:08 but its not a pcb with danglign wires etc. Jul 01 05:51:39 I had a Neo BV4 Jul 01 05:51:46 just do not have a debug board Jul 01 05:51:53 the software stack on it is so buggy Jul 01 05:52:14 won't make a call, SD slot broken and so on. Jul 01 05:53:06 hmmm Jul 01 05:53:09 sd card works Jul 01 05:53:16 maybe your unit wasn Jul 01 05:53:18 maybe your unit wasn't good Jul 01 05:53:21 We are planning to order at least 5 Neo Advanced and 5 Neo basic Jul 01 05:53:22 or the card was dud? Jul 01 05:53:28 software is indeed buggy Jul 01 05:53:46 but that is a matter of time, effort and testing Jul 01 05:53:49 the project time is critical for us. Jul 01 05:53:59 more concerned about its limited functionality and looks myself Jul 01 05:54:06 I may have to drop this project, could be a big customer for openmoko, damn it Jul 01 05:54:07 because it looks .. well.. not so hot Jul 01 05:54:08 :) Jul 01 05:54:29 maybe you need to wait until its more mature? Jul 01 05:54:50 i wrote an email to Sean for help. Ask him to deliver some NEO advanced to me before July 12th,2007 Jul 01 05:54:59 hope he can help me. Jul 01 05:55:04 that would be possible Jul 01 05:55:24 01's will be available july 9 Jul 01 05:55:53 http://www.openmoko.com/ Jul 01 05:55:56 has all the details Jul 01 05:56:17 u do not get it right? I have a project evaluation schedule here, if we can not show a demo to our customer. There is no way to go. Jul 01 05:56:54 (script) openmoko-community: Sean Moss-Pultz Re: New Oceans Jul 01 05:57:08 i just send him an email Jul 01 05:57:57 Starting July 9th, we will launch openmoko.com and start taking orders. We're going to have two configurations: Jul 01 05:58:02 योु ासकेद ्ोर ा दे्िनिते तिमे्रामे Jul 01 05:58:04 oops Jul 01 05:58:06 Let me give you more credit here to let you believe me. Jul 01 05:58:09 you asked for adefinite timeframe Jul 01 05:58:26 i am wondering what else you need? Jul 01 05:58:34 you need al tyhe software finished and working by then too? Jul 01 05:58:38 jackey: you are speaking about buggy software stack - yes, it is buggy, because is simply is _not complete_ yet - the time when it should be usable is time of official Nie1973 release for end users Jul 01 05:59:35 counter Jul 01 05:59:36 (last update 2007-06-30T13:10) http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter 60% for P1 in a week, a day 06:00:19 (8.250±1.0 days) (1657;242) Jul 01 06:00:14 the soiftware definitely wont be ready by then Jul 01 06:00:19 (july 9) Jul 01 06:00:27 Honestly, I do not believe that community will be able to make a software stack ready. Jul 01 06:00:40 by july 9 - no. Jul 01 06:00:53 I meant september release date :) Jul 01 06:01:02 BSP ready is not that hard. I just want to let our engineer to promote the OpenMoko in enterpise way. Jul 01 06:01:08 jackey: communitiy is highly motivated, and that's time when wonders happen:) Jul 01 06:01:54 come on, make a real phone product is not just say it. Sorry about my honesty. Jul 01 06:01:58 I'm not telling you to rely on wonders, though, these are just my opinions Jul 01 06:02:23 jackey: the phone hardware works. it has some kinks right now - the software needs work Jul 01 06:02:32 the problem is that they are BUILDING an OPEN platform Jul 01 06:02:33 it doesnt exist Jul 01 06:02:37 it has to be created Jul 01 06:02:50 other "phone software platforms" for linux are not open Jul 01 06:02:50 yes, i am agree. Jul 01 06:03:01 or not compatible with standard desktop development Jul 01 06:03:09 let me ask one question Jul 01 06:03:18 (you need to write everything in c++/qt for example for specialised windowing systems etc.) Jul 01 06:03:28 will openmoko be able to have a real phone in Q2, 2008? Jul 01 06:03:39 ok first Jul 01 06:03:42 lets stand back Jul 01 06:03:46 sure Jul 01 06:03:47 what do you mean by "real phone" Jul 01 06:03:56 hardware and software Jul 01 06:03:56 so we know exactly what we are talking about :) Jul 01 06:04:07 by software - what do you mean? Jul 01 06:04:14 and pass CA test or even Operator test Jul 01 06:04:59 i mean a realy smartphone like Moto 2100 Jul 01 06:05:30 don't know Jul 01 06:05:36 most of the work to be done is in software Jul 01 06:05:44 and it depends how fussy you are in terms of usability Jul 01 06:05:45 quality Jul 01 06:05:47 etc. Jul 01 06:06:48 i don't work for fic or openmoko - so i can't give anything official beyond what i do know that is public knowledge Jul 01 06:07:07 and where i think, as a software engineer, it is right now and where it can/will go Jul 01 06:08:04 as an average consumer i would be disappointed with the neo right now Jul 01 06:08:10 as a developer i think its fantastic Jul 01 06:08:36 raster: is that because it doesn't run e17 :P ? Jul 01 06:08:51 given enough time and resources it will improve Jul 01 06:08:55 ravan: of course! :) Jul 01 06:09:09 ravan: actually no - software will crash at the slightest provokation Jul 01 06:09:14 like just tapping the power button Jul 01 06:09:15 ravan: that was actually my intention for trying to get it running in qemu tonight Jul 01 06:09:25 visuals-wise its very rough and "barely functional" Jul 01 06:09:29 let me ask my question in another way Jul 01 06:09:45 How many peope in OpenMoko did a mobiel product before? Jul 01 06:09:57 it doesnt have anything remotely functional as an addressbook - cant do sms - haven't tried phone calls at all yet - but unsure what will happen there Jul 01 06:10:28 jackey: openmoko is being spun off from FIC Jul 01 06:10:42 its the old "mobile phone" division Jul 01 06:10:59 the current neo is a product that WAS going to be a windows mobile phone Jul 01 06:11:02 each a product phone must pass at least 20k test cases. Who will do that? Jul 01 06:11:03 but now is linux Jul 01 06:11:13 before that fic has produced several models of mobile phone Jul 01 06:11:24 i should probably ditch my project and try helping with the openmoko software Jul 01 06:11:53 Ravan, I am trying to do the same thing. Jul 01 06:11:53 i've been trying to get qtopia to work on the emulator Jul 01 06:12:29 how is going? Jul 01 06:12:33 ravan, that sounds my idea Jul 01 06:12:56 r u trying to run 4.x? Jul 01 06:13:04 jackey: yes. 4.3 Jul 01 06:13:10 forget about it Jul 01 06:13:25 qtopia 4.3 is heavy Jul 01 06:13:43 it isnt too hard to build a set of basic ui's to do what is needed Jul 01 06:13:53 the problem is building something that will last through multilpe models Jul 01 06:14:00 multiel generatiosn and different hardware setups Jul 01 06:14:06 i am using "heavy" instead of "slow" Jul 01 06:14:09 and be able to be expanded in the future Jul 01 06:14:29 i am adding stuff to e17 toi make it more "mobile friendly" Jul 01 06:15:05 e17 ? isnt that a myth ? like duke nukem forever ? :) Jul 01 06:15:05 u are still making toy not a product. Jul 01 06:15:17 madwoota: :-P Jul 01 06:15:27 jackey: how do u know that? Jul 01 06:15:43 raster: any work for someone with no graphics programming experience? Jul 01 06:16:02 ravan: ummmmmmm Jul 01 06:16:04 gees Jul 01 06:16:07 thats a hard q Jul 01 06:16:11 as its all gui Jul 01 06:16:16 that is a very good question Jul 01 06:16:18 but the gui is driven by code... Jul 01 06:16:34 u dont need to be a gui expert to work with it Jul 01 06:16:38 but it always helps Jul 01 06:16:44 i have done some gui programming with qt and some in java Jul 01 06:16:46 i guess there is work Jul 01 06:16:48 actually Jul 01 06:16:48 come on, mobile phone is all about user experience Jul 01 06:16:57 hooking battery module to use dbus's power management api Jul 01 06:17:09 fixing up some of the last touches on dbus hal support for removable de3vices Jul 01 06:17:15 e17 is for desktop, without a nice easy UE/UI design, end user will not pick you for sure Jul 01 06:17:29 jackey: sorry. i will disagree with you there. Jul 01 06:17:41 i've been on this "linux for mobiles" bandwagon for years Jul 01 06:17:50 i've been preparing for it Jul 01 06:18:02 u dont think i have all the hooks and bits in e17 just waiting to be plugged in? Jul 01 06:18:03 :) Jul 01 06:18:08 show me, then i believe you Jul 01 06:18:24 jackey: lots of people have great experience with linux on handhelds/mobile devices Jul 01 06:18:25 i need to plug things IN Jul 01 06:18:32 i use e17 on my Gentoo Jul 01 06:19:03 i knew, Do u think that current Samsung chip is too weak? Jul 01 06:19:19 for fancy stuff - yes Jul 01 06:19:21 for basics Jul 01 06:19:21 no Jul 01 06:19:27 e17 runs on my n800 Jul 01 06:19:31 almsot the same cpu Jul 01 06:19:35 (266vs300mhz) Jul 01 06:19:37 same ram Jul 01 06:19:42 similar flash storage Jul 01 06:19:51 in fact i suspect the samsung might be better off Jul 01 06:19:51 my experience with Neo Basic tell me that Jul 01 06:19:59 as the n800 has an anemic video bus Jul 01 06:20:13 the neo also has 640x480 not 800x480 to fill Jul 01 06:20:18 maybe it is software stack, not the cpu, my mistake Jul 01 06:20:31 the software stack on the neo uses gdk-pixbuf, cairo and gtk Jul 01 06:20:37 that isnt knownm for being a speed demon Jul 01 06:20:47 ravan, any luck for 4.3 on Neo? Jul 01 06:21:27 glitz too? Jul 01 06:21:36 glitz is useless Jul 01 06:21:43 1`. no accelerated rendering on the neo Jul 01 06:21:44 i agree Jul 01 06:21:58 may be next version Jul 01 06:21:58 2. glits requires a fairly high powered 3d chip to be useful for 2d Jul 01 06:22:08 (eg rectangular textures etc.) Jul 01 06:22:17 and in the end Jul 01 06:22:22 with an open gfx chip and driver Jul 01 06:22:28 xrender itself should just be sped up directly Jul 01 06:22:35 without having to go via opengl Jul 01 06:22:54 haha, now i am start to believe u Jul 01 06:23:10 evas alreayd has opengl, xrender etc. engines Jul 01 06:23:18 raster, P2 is going to have a gpu, yes? Jul 01 06:23:22 but software is the best one to rely on as it works everywhere Jul 01 06:23:28 in fact there is a new software-16 engine Jul 01 06:23:39 but current NEO is so slow and UE is not friendly Jul 01 06:23:46 specifically for 16bpp displays local to the process (no support for working over a network - pointless anyway) Jul 01 06:23:48 daMaestro: yes Jul 01 06:23:51 cool Jul 01 06:23:55 daMaestro: the wiki seems to indicate the mass market version will have 2d and 3d accel Jul 01 06:23:55 daMaestro: yes. Jul 01 06:23:56 is the buildsys back online? Jul 01 06:24:05 AntonTakk, !!! Jul 01 06:24:12 AntonTakk, :-D ... good to see you here Jul 01 06:24:16 you too Jul 01 06:24:19 AntonTakk, how long have you lurked here? Jul 01 06:24:29 or has my endless "look at this" paid off? Jul 01 06:24:29 uh, couple hours now Jul 01 06:24:29 jackey: still working on it.. spent the whole of yesterday learning about OE and bitbake Jul 01 06:24:36 nice... Jul 01 06:24:57 * daMaestro has been whoring the openmoko almost as much as Girls Gone Wild does on latenight TV Jul 01 06:25:20 ravan, let me know if you need some help. jackey.yang at archermind.com Jul 01 06:25:37 daMaestro: actually, have a popular science mag on my desk, has an article about openmoko/neo1973, looked it up, thought it was cool, and now i'm considering a neo instead of a treo Jul 01 06:25:51 AntonTakk, nice! press is always good Jul 01 06:26:03 AntonTakk, i've got the qemu-neo1973 stuff packaged up Jul 01 06:26:07 i could use another fedora tester Jul 01 06:26:15 jackey: http://www.rasterman.com/files/eem-live.avi Jul 01 06:26:17 there seems to be a limited fedora presence here Jul 01 06:26:22 http://www.rasterman.com/files/eem.avi Jul 01 06:26:25 for a "cleaner" version Jul 01 06:26:36 daMaestro: i have the binaries built, but if you have an rpm, i'll gladly test Jul 01 06:26:45 but theres a live vide4o of a quick and dirty phone menu i did a few years back Jul 01 06:26:51 runing on an ipaq 3660 Jul 01 06:26:52 i have to fix one mistake from earlier Jul 01 06:27:03 its perfectly possible to do a nice ui Jul 01 06:27:05 daMaestro: happen to have the files to build the image to run in qemu? Jul 01 06:27:06 AntonTakk, i also have to see if the buildsys is back up Jul 01 06:27:08 that consumers will like Jul 01 06:27:11 AntonTakk, yup :-) Jul 01 06:27:15 just need to put the time and effort in Jul 01 06:27:20 all the nuts and bolts are there Jul 01 06:27:23 daMaestro: buildsys wasn't up 15 mins or so ago Jul 01 06:27:29 grrr Jul 01 06:27:30 raster: hi there Jul 01 06:27:37 cworth: yo carl! Jul 01 06:27:38 :) Jul 01 06:27:58 no debug board here. Noone can really help. Jul 01 06:28:12 For what it's worth, I totally agree with raster about glitz, (just ignore it and speedup Render instead). Jul 01 06:28:22 daMaestro: i actually started off tonight trying to get it running to see about building a few things to see how it came out Jul 01 06:28:23 cworth: yup Jul 01 06:28:27 cworth, wow Jul 01 06:28:32 cworth: if u are stuck with "closed drivers" like nvidia Jul 01 06:28:37 or new ati cards Jul 01 06:28:39 then u need glitz Jul 01 06:28:42 if its open Jul 01 06:28:46 just fix the x drivers Jul 01 06:28:51 xrender speeds up in the x core Jul 01 06:28:53 everyone wins Jul 01 06:28:57 raster: Did you see these benchmarks that Jeff Muizelaar ran a few months ago? Jul 01 06:29:03 doing composite managers becomes easy and fast Jul 01 06:29:04 http://people.freedesktop.org/~jrmuizel/composite-bench/over-no-oil-cheat-comparison.png Jul 01 06:29:12 http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/cairo/2007-March/009907.html Jul 01 06:29:15 AntonTakk, well.. we need access to the buildsys or the packages are usesless Jul 01 06:29:24 daMaestro: how so? Jul 01 06:29:37 cworth: no.. i didnt! Jul 01 06:29:53 cworth: i was looking into liboil but i couldnt find out how to use it nicely Jul 01 06:29:55 so i gave up Jul 01 06:29:56 raster: Oh, sorry---I really should have pointed them out to you sooner. Jul 01 06:29:57 :/ Jul 01 06:30:08 AntonTakk, i'm not including images in the packages Jul 01 06:30:09 i thought liboil would be nice Jul 01 06:30:18 thats pretty good Jul 01 06:30:20 i must say Jul 01 06:30:21 AntonTakk, just "openmoko-download" and "openmoko-flash" Jul 01 06:30:45 raster: Yeah, David's code looks extremely impressive in that chart. Jul 01 06:30:50 yup Jul 01 06:30:50 daMaestro: ah Jul 01 06:30:59 cworth: so thats liboil based compositing? Jul 01 06:31:12 raster: Yeah. Jul 01 06:31:12 (i assume he ripped the codee out of evas) Jul 01 06:31:18 to do the testing Jul 01 06:31:21 thats pretty nice Jul 01 06:31:23 x86 i assume tho? Jul 01 06:31:39 i'm impressed Jul 01 06:31:43 daMaestro: does your rpm intigrate with the virt mach man in f7? Jul 01 06:31:44 credit where credit is due Jul 01 06:31:47 he beat me Jul 01 06:31:48 crap Jul 01 06:31:57 raster: The email has the code for the benchmark, so knock yourself out. Jul 01 06:32:02 must...fix...code... have...been...beaten!!!! :) Jul 01 06:32:30 out of here. bye guys Jul 01 06:32:43 Yes, x86: "Intel(R) Xeon(TM) CPU 2.80GHz." Jul 01 06:32:43 AntonTakk, they don't conflict, but they don't take advantage of KVM Jul 01 06:33:01 daMaestro: more interested in starting the vm from that gui Jul 01 06:33:18 cworth: very nice Jul 01 06:33:28 AntonTakk, hmm... it's possible we could add it to virt-manager Jul 01 06:33:57 daMaestro: if it gets added in to qemu upstream, it will probably be added anyways thou Jul 01 06:33:58 cworth: although recently i focused on scaling out more - evas has a SIMD multi-threaded rendering engine now Jul 01 06:34:01 has for a while Jul 01 06:34:07 so if you have 4 cores... Jul 01 06:34:14 raster: Cool. Jul 01 06:34:17 AntonTakk, yes.. and that is the goal Jul 01 06:34:17 evas will kindly soak up as much of all 4 cores as it can Jul 01 06:34:27 splits the renderign up between them Jul 01 06:34:32 i managed to do ti with only 1 mutex Jul 01 06:34:38 on font structs Jul 01 06:34:46 i am burning to get rid of that mutex Jul 01 06:34:53 i hates me mutexes Jul 01 06:35:00 raster: I've got an MS student working on a jit-based replacement for pixman. I'm hoping it will pan out and let us easily include the fastest software available for cairo's rendering. Jul 01 06:35:07 the only problem goign simd was Jul 01 06:35:23 complex ops (interpolated scaling, super sampling etc.) got good speedups Jul 01 06:35:26 (It's sad that even 3 months after Jeff's benchmark, we're still shipping cairo with the same old slow software.) Jul 01 06:35:28 almost 2x speedup on a dual core Jul 01 06:35:29 other ops Jul 01 06:35:39 like blitting or even just blending actualyl slow down Jul 01 06:35:39 :( Jul 01 06:35:56 http://buildhost.openmoko.org/ <---- nooooooo Jul 01 06:36:02 does anyone have a mirror of the buildhosts? Jul 01 06:36:07 cworth: a jit enigne would be nice Jul 01 06:36:07 raster: Yeah, that kind of thing will happen with SIMD. Jul 01 06:36:12 just something i can pull the 3 latest images from? Jul 01 06:37:24 cworth: have u heard of that complete software direct3d implementation? Jul 01 06:37:32 its even meant to be usabel on a fast cpu Jul 01 06:38:00 its built on softwire Jul 01 06:38:04 raster: Yeah, I'm hoping something will appear soon. We did a proof-of-concept thing in 1 day, and now Daniel Amelang has been doing all the hard work. You can see his progress in one-post-per-month updates here: Jul 01 06:38:06 whihc is kind of a jit for gfx ops Jul 01 06:38:07 http://vpri.org/pipermail/jitblit/ Jul 01 06:38:24 No, I hadn't heard of that. Jul 01 06:39:07 bitbake never seems to resume from failed packages... always restarts from gnu-config-native :( Jul 01 06:39:11 its been around for years now Jul 01 06:40:10 cworth: i might need to do a libpixman evas engine Jul 01 06:40:13 that might be useful Jul 01 06:40:21 as it will be easy to hack pixmap outside of x Jul 01 06:40:24 no need to restart Jul 01 06:40:33 and then that filters back to x Jul 01 06:40:44 and technically Jul 01 06:40:48 that means the jit stuff or liboil Jul 01 06:40:48 raster: Yeah---the X server depends on an external libpixman now, which is nice. Jul 01 06:40:55 etc. work goign into pixman would be useful Jul 01 06:40:58 yup Jul 01 06:41:03 that was a great move recently Jul 01 06:41:07 thus why i am considering it Jul 01 06:41:14 though i would personalyl want to extend libpixman Jul 01 06:41:23 i will NEEd filtered downscaling Jul 01 06:41:27 can't live withotu that Jul 01 06:41:29 its uuuuugly Jul 01 06:41:34 Right, and if/when Daniel's stuff becomes "real" then pixman should get a _lot_ more interesting. Jul 01 06:41:38 and need to throw in yuv->rgb Jul 01 06:42:06 Oh, you would make a *lot* of people happy if you added reasonable downscaling to pixman. Jul 01 06:42:36 :) Jul 01 06:42:51 xrenders current "nearest" downscaling makes me... want.. too.... vomit Jul 01 06:42:54 :) Jul 01 06:42:59 now Jul 01 06:43:06 all i need is that crucial ingedient - TIME Jul 01 06:43:17 also a custom 16bpp enigne would be ncie Jul 01 06:43:31 though not sure how well that would work with pixman Jul 01 06:44:44 It should be doing bilinear downscaling, (that is, you get filtering only as long as you're scaling down by a factor of 2 or less). Jul 01 06:45:30 Again, the jit work has the potential to make it easy to support 16bpp, (and floating-point formats, and anything else crazy people want to do...). Jul 01 06:45:33 cworth: problem with that is - its limtied range Jul 01 06:45:44 and even there my experience is that the quality is dubious Jul 01 06:46:10 16bpp is a bit tricky to support Jul 01 06:46:13 raster: Anyway, good to catch up with you a bit---I should really go get some sleep now. Jul 01 06:46:14 AntonTakk, neo > treo Jul 01 06:46:20 because you need to pick a format for pixels thats efficient Jul 01 06:46:30 i went for a 16bpp 565 + alpha plane Jul 01 06:46:31 AntonTakk, neo > treo^9999999 Jul 01 06:46:37 where alpha is 0->32 (not 0->31) Jul 01 06:46:47 to avoid needing corrections in the over blend math Jul 01 06:46:57 cworth: ok- go snooze man Jul 01 06:47:14 i should really dig into pixman now that its going to be useful Jul 01 06:47:15 :) Jul 01 06:49:49 darn... et.1.16.rs3k47.rz6.hetzner.de is telling me that buildhost is down Jul 01 06:51:41 daMaestro: yes, and no, that full qwerty kb built in to the treo and the digital cam are nice features to have Jul 01 06:51:57 daMaestro: especially since part of it's use would be for e-mail Jul 01 06:52:37 AntonTakk, why would you want a shit keyboard? Jul 01 06:52:48 AntonTakk, just pickup a sweet bluetooth keyboard Jul 01 06:53:38 daMaestro: i can imagine it would be slightly clumsy to hold the moko and a usb kb Jul 01 06:54:09 daMaestro: now, if a touch screen kb could be implimented on openmoko with reasonable acuracy, that would be just as well Jul 01 06:54:16 er Jul 01 06:54:18 bt kb Jul 01 06:54:35 well.. there is a touch keyboard Jul 01 06:54:39 but it seems the screen size would somewhat limit that Jul 01 06:54:47 but i think it is stylus based.. not finger based Jul 01 06:54:55 especially since i don't have small thumbs Jul 01 06:54:59 ah Jul 01 06:56:39 AntonTakk, http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Look_%26_Feel Jul 01 06:56:53 AntonTakk, http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Image:Stylus_06_input_keypad_dock.png Jul 01 06:59:00 daMaestro: see, with the accelerometers, wouldn't it be easy enough to detect the phone being flipped sideways in relevant apps and display a longer, mode finger friendly on screen kb? Jul 01 06:59:15 AntonTakk, i expect so Jul 01 06:59:18 with a line or two for text at the top Jul 01 06:59:24 AntonTakk, i'm most likely going to also get: http://www.pdalive.com/forums/attachment.php?s=39a7403e6f4c57ac8241a95d0f4c4cd4&postid=49522 Jul 01 06:59:43 AntonTakk, the great part: it's open.. so you can make it do that! ;-) Jul 01 07:02:39 i'm no programmer thou Jul 01 07:03:05 oh, a plushy keyboard Jul 01 07:03:07 :) Jul 01 07:05:18 AntonTakk, yeah.. it's not for ultra mobile typing.. (like on the bus/train) .. i'll use the stylus for that Jul 01 07:05:29 AntonTakk, i'm expecting to be able to irc over vpn Jul 01 07:06:09 yeah Jul 01 07:06:26 will i be able to get one of these developer phones and use it on cingular? Jul 01 07:06:26 intarwebz: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.) Jul 01 07:07:09 intarwebz, it should work on "cingular" (which is now att) Jul 01 07:07:16 oh heh right Jul 01 07:07:22 intarwebz, att has support for GSM... so you should be able to Jul 01 07:07:25 yeah, should, given that att is GSM Jul 01 07:07:26 not sure why you'd expect anything to work to be honest Jul 01 07:07:29 intarwebz: i don't think the dev phones will be quite ready for general use, you might want to wait for tyhe final product in october Jul 01 07:07:30 its a dev phone Jul 01 07:07:31 heh Jul 01 07:07:46 well that is why i want it Jul 01 07:07:47 no i know i have another phone but i mean for testing purposes does the gsm radio work i guess was my question Jul 01 07:07:49 ;-) Jul 01 07:08:25 so there are only 1000? Jul 01 07:08:57 i've gotta get one; i'd have gotten an iphone if there were any app dev entry point other than opera :P Jul 01 07:09:33 intarwebz, +1 Jul 01 07:09:56 you had bettre line up outside fi'cs offices Jul 01 07:10:02 to get one Jul 01 07:10:09 then buy them all and sell them on ebay Jul 01 07:10:10 :) Jul 01 07:10:23 heh Jul 01 07:10:37 wait? raster ? Jul 01 07:11:19 raster, are the first 1k accounted for already? Jul 01 07:11:34 i really hope not Jul 01 07:11:36 i have no idea Jul 01 07:11:42 i was making an iphone-joke Jul 01 07:11:52 with all the peolpe camping outside apple stores etc.; to get one Jul 01 07:11:56 yeah, the iphone finder's pretty much showing that nobody sold out Jul 01 07:12:08 really? Jul 01 07:12:14 hah Jul 01 07:12:22 *fizzle* Jul 01 07:12:35 really? Jul 01 07:12:47 man the press must be soooo overhyping it Jul 01 07:12:48 no, apple was just better prepared then sony (aka ps3) Jul 01 07:12:54 as all u read is "iphone this.. ip[hone that" Jul 01 07:13:23 * mjr is _supposed_ to have a good queue spot, and he doesn't know anything about any accounting for yet Jul 01 07:13:40 it's too expensive for a random splurge Jul 01 07:13:51 yeah, i think the iphone's pretty cool except that it doesn't actually do any of the things i need a device to do Jul 01 07:14:02 yeah, the iphone struck me as getting far more attention than it deserved Jul 01 07:14:11 it's cooler than walking around with a nokia n800 tethered via bluetooth but i can do my job from the n800 Jul 01 07:14:22 iWhat? Jul 01 07:14:25 and i guarantee the iphone would get me more booty Jul 01 07:14:38 which i think is a good sign of the times; gadgets attracting ladies, that i can get behind Jul 01 07:14:51 intarwebz, yuck Jul 01 07:14:51 lol Jul 01 07:14:58 no iphones on ebay yet ... must be pretty bad Jul 01 07:15:10 I dunno... the kind of girls that care about trendy status symbols like that... probably not exactly the cream of the crop. Jul 01 07:15:25 intarwebz, those are the girls that bought every RAZR, even when all that changed was the color Jul 01 07:15:30 madwoota i saw iphones on ebay Jul 01 07:15:36 no, not at all, intarwebz Jul 01 07:15:43 er, wrong cat :P Jul 01 07:15:45 no?? Jul 01 07:15:48 but you will at least know if you take them home you're getting ****ed Jul 01 07:15:49 lol Jul 01 07:15:52 maybe it was the tPhone :P Jul 01 07:16:11 $1k+ Jul 01 07:16:12 rofl Jul 01 07:16:20 it's a smart phone, but get this: it plays music! and video!, and a bunch of other stuff that every other smart phone in existance does, and it only costs a few hundred more for a shiny plastic case that will get scratched up in three months!!! *chirp* *chirp* *chirp* Jul 01 07:16:40 and wait: you have to use carrier XYZ Jul 01 07:16:49 oh, yeah, that too Jul 01 07:16:56 http://www.smashsworld.com/2007/06/10-things-that-absolutely-suck-about.php Jul 01 07:17:09 yeah, that's my biggest beef; att can slob my--wait i'm not sure if irc etiquette permits Jul 01 07:17:27 only a couple of bids on them, hardly a rush .. i saw ps3's with dozens of bids Jul 01 07:17:50 someone needs to find out the default user so we can start ssh-ing INTO the iphones Jul 01 07:18:53 but i don't mean to be so off topic Jul 01 07:21:18 i doubt u can ssh in Jul 01 07:21:25 yeah.. i really doubt it Jul 01 07:21:37 my understanding is there is *no* shell.. of any kind Jul 01 07:22:50 what happened to "it's a full osx?" Jul 01 07:22:59 Our Deity who is Jobs says you dont need a shell Jul 01 07:23:04 was that marketing speak back before att asked what that actually entailed?' Jul 01 07:23:08 under all the ui there probbly is one Jul 01 07:23:12 but not as if they let u get to it Jul 01 07:23:37 i'm sure there's a way to remote in for admin purposes Jul 01 07:24:25 i doubt it Jul 01 07:24:43 i bet u its a "must plug it into special debugign board" and u get a serial console Jul 01 07:24:54 but not over a network Jul 01 07:25:00 or anything "advanced" Jul 01 07:25:01 yeah thats what i was thinking Jul 01 07:25:35 hmmm.....i dunno....i don't see the advantage for apple to be restrictive, though i defs see one for att Jul 01 07:25:50 as i see it, any dumbing down was done for contractual reasons on using the network Jul 01 07:26:08 that opinion is largely based on the ex att ceo talking about how it's his damn internet and we shoudln't get to use it for free Jul 01 07:26:27 may his activex be sploited Jul 01 07:26:41 raster: the wiki has screen shots and such showing sshing in via ethernet over usb as root Jul 01 07:27:16 antontakk: link? Jul 01 07:27:25 knew that was coming Jul 01 07:27:28 let me find it Jul 01 07:27:30 hhahaa kk Jul 01 07:27:45 AntonTakk: to the iphone? Jul 01 07:29:01 oh, no, the neo Jul 01 07:29:05 oooo Jul 01 07:29:06 kk Jul 01 07:29:12 no link necessary then Jul 01 07:29:13 :) Jul 01 07:29:16 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Getting_Started_with_your_Neo1973#Getting_shell_access_on_the_phone btw Jul 01 07:29:31 ooh Jul 01 07:29:35 we were talkign about the iphone Jul 01 07:29:39 the neo is open Jul 01 07:29:41 of course Jul 01 07:29:43 :) Jul 01 07:29:45 yeah Jul 01 07:29:58 been away reading ravan's earlier link Jul 01 07:30:02 i have my little ssh prompt sittin on another desktop Jul 01 07:30:08 nice Jul 01 07:30:42 i think i'm going to wait for the consumer version, as i want to actually use it while I take my time trying to build apps for it Jul 01 07:31:33 u'll get more flash , accelerometers and gfx accel Jul 01 07:31:40 that should open up a lot of potential Jul 01 07:31:48 AntonTakk: i think you may have the right strategy Jul 01 07:31:53 just reading this "what sucks about the iphone" thing Jul 01 07:31:54 hmm buildhost is still down Jul 01 07:32:00 amusing... Jul 01 07:32:08 raster: i didn't think the 10 things were too bad except the no tethering Jul 01 07:32:10 that's totally bogus Jul 01 07:32:49 and not being able to buy music from the phone Jul 01 07:32:51 that is just stupid Jul 01 07:33:13 intarwebz: that do seem l;ike major ui blunders to me Jul 01 07:33:25 for someone like apple Jul 01 07:33:27 its bad Jul 01 07:34:41 daMaestro: thou, you wouldn't want to type in your account info or credit card info with that phone anyways :) Jul 01 07:35:33 AntonTakk, it can easily be attached to your account Jul 01 07:35:41 .... Jul 01 07:35:42 you think that att doesn't know who is on their network when? Jul 01 07:35:44 no thanks Jul 01 07:35:46 it makes no sense to me Jul 01 07:36:19 i prefer to remember my cc numbers/etc my self, don't want a website or app to do it for me Jul 01 07:36:23 if apple was going to get into bed with att... i don't see why they didn't at least make it so they make more money Jul 01 07:36:30 no, no CC info Jul 01 07:36:37 it's just attached to your "iTunes" account Jul 01 07:36:47 all you have to do is login to "iTunes" Jul 01 07:36:53 ah Jul 01 07:36:56 via your phone.. and it buys your music Jul 01 07:36:58 still thou Jul 01 07:37:00 anyways.. stupid. Jul 01 07:37:46 if you think about it, any device that supports data networking can probably be broken in to by anyone with enough desire/means Jul 01 07:38:01 will openmoko support this http://www.engadget.com/2007/06/30/iphone-pottymouth-friendly/ Jul 01 07:38:33 AntonTakk, if you think about it.. there would be no need to have any private information when "buying" music Jul 01 07:38:45 (hahaha no tethering on the iphone) Jul 01 07:38:46 true Jul 01 07:38:49 the carrier already knows who you are.. all they do is tell iTunes.. you attache your phone to your iTunes account... and boom Jul 01 07:38:58 yeah Jul 01 07:39:01 it's a stupid thing... (not that i really care) but still Jul 01 07:39:06 common apple... what tools Jul 01 07:39:07 lol Jul 01 07:39:16 annnyways.. this is why i'm all about the openmoko Jul 01 07:39:28 if there is something i don't like.. i can fix it.. and show others how to fix it :-0 Jul 01 07:39:29 empty_mind: well if we just use ispell/aspell Jul 01 07:39:32 it would Jul 01 07:39:34 grrrr ;-) Jul 01 07:40:19 daMaestro: indeed Jul 01 07:40:25 u cant complain (as much) Jul 01 07:40:28 lol Jul 01 07:40:29 as u can always fix it Jul 01 07:40:34 if u create somethnig cool Jul 01 07:40:44 it likely will get rolled into the next product/firmware revision Jul 01 07:40:46 Hey guys, does anyone know if Neo1973 is still on schedule for next weeks release? Jul 01 07:40:46 nsirota: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.) Jul 01 07:40:49 so it will become standard Jul 01 07:40:51 raster i ave heard you tested efl on openmoko Jul 01 07:40:58 empty_mind: no - i havent Jul 01 07:41:04 i was building all of OE yesterday Jul 01 07:41:13 raster, ok Jul 01 07:41:19 and today i started fioxing up e17 to be more "moko friendly" Jul 01 07:41:33 (ie i added a small hook and a module that forces windows to maximize always) Jul 01 07:41:41 but dialogs are centered with a border Jul 01 07:42:31 do we have any notes app for openmoko ? Jul 01 07:42:50 I've been checking the wiki, but I dont quite understand if I will be able to order on the 9th of this month if I have to wait until october Jul 01 07:43:12 nsirota, are you a developer interested in hacking phone ? Jul 01 07:43:20 yes Jul 01 07:43:34 nsirota, then order on 9th else wait till october Jul 01 07:43:58 mickeyl, there ? Jul 01 07:44:05 I'm going crazy with everyone talking about the iphone as if its the second coming of jesus Jul 01 07:44:35 nsirota, that marketing hype. See apple has more money than all of us collective Jul 01 07:44:58 empty_mind, I apologize for asking so many questions, but do you know if I will be able to order directly from openmoko.com? Jul 01 07:45:23 nsirota, i think so. Jul 01 07:45:32 Also, will it be able to interface with AT&T's GSM network? Jul 01 07:45:44 nsirota: http://youtube.com/watch?v=xgZKjJt-TkU might cheer you up Jul 01 07:46:07 nsirota, i saw a working phone in april and it worked with Indian GSM network. I even made a phone call with Indian sim card Jul 01 07:46:09 =D Jul 01 07:46:34 empty_mind: where?!! Jul 01 07:46:41 nsirota: behold! the iphone! worship no false idols! love your god and father, steve, and accept his blessings (after handing out lots of cash to him). Jul 01 07:46:55 haha Jul 01 07:47:47 ravan in Bangalore, when Harald and Sean visited Bangalore on 10th APril Jul 01 07:47:54 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Talk:Openstreetmap]] Jul 01 07:48:49 empty_mind: :( i would have gone if i knew about it Jul 01 07:49:35 ravan, well if you dont hang out on #linux-india this will happen Jul 01 07:50:16 btw anyone knows the proessor speed of iphone ? Jul 01 07:50:19 Oh man, now I know how people felt waiting for the iPhone! I really dont know what to do with myself until the 9th =D Jul 01 07:50:47 nsirota: you aren't going to get it on the 9th.. it'll take time to ship :P Jul 01 07:50:51 nsirota, yeah.. but we don't have to sign away our mobile freedom for 2 years Jul 01 07:51:14 nsirota, hehe lucky you. Delay in lauch of neo has costed me this device atleast. I am out of money to buy such devices Jul 01 07:51:30 nor conform to the hundreds of thousands of people who dont quite know better Jul 01 07:51:42 anyone will ing to sponsor a device for me ? Jul 01 07:52:34 haha Jul 01 07:52:58 is there any pre-order? Jul 01 07:53:10 I'll have to get my hands on the official release also Jul 01 07:53:25 empty_mind: take the money from something less important, like food, or health care ;) Jul 01 07:54:00 AntonTakk, hehe even then it will out of my pocket and by the time i get money, phone will be out of stock Jul 01 07:54:26 who needs health care when you're coding in a room all day =P Jul 01 07:55:25 AntonTakk, well.. the buildhost is still down.. so i don't think we will get to the testing today Jul 01 07:57:15 You think they will give "beta" testers a break when it comes to buying the retail version of the phone? Jul 01 07:57:29 no, we are getting the price break on the first device Jul 01 07:57:35 and we don't have send it back (so you end up with 2) Jul 01 07:57:45 nsirota, http://openmoko.com/ Jul 01 07:57:48 true Jul 01 07:57:51 i think they will give a discount to those who buy devel version of the phone Jul 01 07:58:01 no, we are all going to get the discount Jul 01 07:58:10 empty_mind, see above link Jul 01 07:58:25 Linux_Galore, howdy Jul 01 07:58:47 heh, just trying to fix a Gutsy bug in the boot process Jul 01 07:59:47 Zoolooc, do you know who runs the buildhost (lol... i just notice you are de) Jul 01 08:00:49 oh, wow Jul 01 08:00:51 2 am Jul 01 08:00:58 yup Jul 01 08:00:58 lol Jul 01 08:00:59 i am way late for bed Jul 01 08:01:19 by, like.........5 hours Jul 01 08:01:38 my command and conquer 3 download just finished (ealink was slow... and the download was 5.2GB) Jul 01 08:01:47 ack! Jul 01 08:02:01 daMaestro don't know, I'm just occasionaly reading this channel, to try to get a feeling when some decent linux pda-phone hits the market :-) Jul 01 08:02:19 ahh, cool.. i just noticed you are .de and i know the buildhost is in .de Jul 01 08:02:24 Zoolooc: October ;) Jul 01 08:03:21 hmm, nice to hear Jul 01 08:03:47 yeah, I'm living in .de Jul 01 08:03:54 anyways, night all Jul 01 08:06:39 AntonTakk, i'll ping you when the buildhost is back up and you can test the build Jul 01 08:08:26 hello Jul 01 08:09:48 daMaestro: cool, thanks Jul 01 08:20:46 good morning Jul 01 08:20:56 hi Jul 01 08:25:48 hey Jul 01 08:26:26 hi Jul 01 08:26:38 hi Jul 01 08:42:41 he is not here, but I think jackey doesn't need new hardware (2007-07-09 is GTA01B_v04 which he already has), he needs to install new software Jul 01 09:48:14 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Wishlist:Unlikely]] Jul 01 10:07:26 the iphone bash of the day: http://www.essistme.com/2007/06/27/20-real-downsides-of-apple-iphone/ Jul 01 10:08:40 oh my god Jul 01 10:08:42 incredible Jul 01 10:09:50 <_buz> it has a few totally ridiculous facts there Jul 01 10:10:09 <_buz> it being an ipod but not playing mp3 ringtones is uhm pure rip off Jul 01 10:10:26 <_buz> Even though it has a 2 Megapixel camera, you CANNOT SEND PICS TO OTHER CELL PHONES VIA MMS PICTURE MESSAGING. Jul 01 10:10:29 <_buz> thats weird Jul 01 10:11:18 you've to write app for it in javascript :p Jul 01 10:11:52 hey! you can make a lot of stuff with javascript Jul 01 10:12:02 for example............ Jul 01 10:12:28 nothing usefull for a phone ... Jul 01 10:14:52 alert(); is cool! Jul 01 10:24:38 some has done some Nokia N95 v iPhone spoofs -> http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=Rcadden&p=r Jul 01 10:24:45 someone* Jul 01 10:28:23 heh iPhone "I have to go back to China to get my battery replaced" Jul 01 10:28:41 _buz: did you read theregister review? Jul 01 10:29:00 <_buz> no Jul 01 10:29:00 <_buz> why Jul 01 10:29:10 "the phone ended up tossing all my mail into a single container. Received messages. Sent messages. Everything." Jul 01 10:29:36 he was pulling it from gmail over pop Jul 01 10:30:01 <_buz> very useful indeed Jul 01 10:30:13 <_buz> i wonder if it might be a gmail issue though Jul 01 10:30:30 <_buz> technically, sent messages shouldnt even live in pop Jul 01 10:31:08 <_buz> (besides, kmail can be told to save sent messages in the same folder as the messages they reply to which is quite useful to me, gives true threading) Jul 01 10:31:34 * Stephmw nods Jul 01 10:32:10 I think it's just a statement on the expected level of usability fom an Apple application... the iphone's email client doesn't quite match the expectation Jul 01 10:33:24 <_buz> no wonder really. mail.app isnt useable at all Jul 01 10:33:31 <_buz> as is most stuff that apple ships with osx when you get down to it Jul 01 10:34:10 <_buz> safari? worst browser ever. finder? not sure what it does, really (not find files, in any case). iphoto? useless. Jul 01 10:34:45 isn't there some problem with sms? Jul 01 10:35:36 are there precompiled images for openmoko anywhere? The wiki mentions buildhost.openmoko.org, but that's down Jul 01 10:36:45 <_buz> whats the state of gnash these days? Jul 01 10:36:52 <_buz> flash would be a nice way to one up the iphone Jul 01 10:37:08 webjames: apart from requiring tiny fingers to type, I wasn't aware of sms problems Jul 01 10:37:52 maybe it was the email, combining the sms or something Jul 01 10:38:41 not thinking of the lacking mms? Jul 01 10:40:47 _buz, good point :) Jul 01 10:41:06 <_buz> mhh gnash is said to be able to do youtube now Jul 01 10:41:08 gnash could actually play youtube once I checked, though the playback was jerky Jul 01 10:41:30 gnash I think renders with opengl, so the GPU could be required... Jul 01 10:41:33 <_buz> on a phone youtube might actually be bearable Jul 01 10:41:42 <_buz> i doubt you need OGL for video? Jul 01 10:41:48 <_buz> that would be some seriously bad engineering Jul 01 10:42:26 <_buz> besides we should get ogl ES in gta02 Jul 01 10:42:37 <_buz> Gnash uses OpenGL for rendering the graphics on the desktop, and AntiGrain (AGG) for embedded framebuffer only devices. Jul 01 10:42:49 <_buz> (whatever AGG may be) Jul 01 10:43:27 <_buz> "Gnash uses OpenGL for rendering the graphics on the desktop, and AntiGrain (AGG) for embedded framebuffer only devices." Jul 01 10:43:29 <_buz> oops Jul 01 10:43:37 <_buz> "Gnash supports the viewing of streaming video from popular video sharing sites like Lulu.tv or YouTube.com." Jul 01 10:44:38 <_buz> and with the work on webkit gtk, we just might get something very similar to iphone's browser Jul 01 10:45:53 <_buz> http://zecke.blogspot.com/2007/07/webkit-progress.html Jul 01 10:46:12 righto Jul 01 10:46:32 (and yeah, ogl es was why I mentioned the GPU) Jul 01 10:49:35 * _buz wonders how hard it would be to upgrade the PCB Jul 01 10:49:41 <_buz> if openmoko sells pcb only Jul 01 10:50:56 Stephmw, i think i was thinking of the lacking mms Jul 01 10:51:46 <_buz> barcode recognition? yeah thats gonna be reeeeeally useful without cam Jul 01 10:53:01 <_buz> not sure how OCR would be useful, either Jul 01 10:58:00 openmoko: 03laforge * r2355 10/trunk/oe/ (3 files in 3 dirs): update kernel to 2.6.21.5 Jul 01 10:59:42 anyone else get an error like this ---> mount: unknown filesystem type 'gadgetfs' Jul 01 11:02:52 ravan: make sure the module is loaded Jul 01 11:08:08 balrog-kun: yes, gadgetfs, usbnet and cdc_ether are loaded. dummy_hcd seems to be compiled in (i'm trying to confirm (kubuntu fiesty)) Jul 01 11:10:00 ravan: does /proc/filesystems have anything with "gadget" in it? Jul 01 11:10:29 here it says "nodev gadgetfs" Jul 01 11:10:32 balrog-kun: nodev gadgetfs Jul 01 11:10:52 balrog-kun: it's there on my machine too Jul 01 11:11:20 i'm not sure what it might be then Jul 01 11:11:25 balrog-kun: what kernel are you using? Jul 01 11:12:11 2.6.20-rc3-omap1 (from git) Jul 01 11:12:52 i'm using 2.6.20-16 (default of kubuntu fiesty) Jul 01 11:13:47 maybe their "mount" binary hardcodes the filesystem names somehow Jul 01 11:14:06 is "unknown filesystem" the only message it prints? Jul 01 11:14:33 yes Jul 01 11:15:49 i'll try rebooting Jul 01 11:21:53 no luck Jul 01 11:25:11 ravan: what's the exact mount cmdline you gave? Jul 01 11:25:50 balrog-kun: mount /dev/gadget Jul 01 11:26:48 do i have to load any of the other gadget drivers? g_ether? Jul 01 11:27:04 ravan: no Jul 01 11:27:14 ravan: and /dev/gadget is in your fstab? Jul 01 11:27:32 yes.. the line as copied from the qemu wiki page Jul 01 11:27:56 i'd try the full command, i.e. mount -t gadgetfs g /dev/gadget Jul 01 11:28:24 also, /dev/gadget is a directory? Jul 01 11:29:22 yes, it is a directory with rwxr-xr-x perms Jul 01 11:30:22 is there any other way to get a connection between host and target in qemu? Jul 01 11:31:49 qemu can emulate a usb NIC, but it is said to not work very well Jul 01 11:32:27 it's enabled with -usbdevice net:blah Jul 01 11:32:55 balrog-kun: thanks Jul 01 11:33:46 http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/qemu-devel/2006-11/msg00044.html Jul 01 11:36:25 coredump :) Jul 01 11:36:47 hmm Jul 01 11:36:51 did you use -usb too? Jul 01 11:37:11 yes.. tried both ways Jul 01 11:40:53 aah.. this is frustrating.. so close Jul 01 11:42:22 -net user -net nic,model=usb -usbdevice net:0 is working here Jul 01 11:42:52 meaning that it boots, not that i can use the network Jul 01 11:43:16 ifconfig shows the usb0 interface Jul 01 11:44:07 oh, did you type "blah" literally? :p Jul 01 11:44:38 balrog-kun: *embarassed* yes Jul 01 11:44:46 ;) Jul 01 11:47:14 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[IPhone/de]] Jul 01 11:47:29 is there a way to connect the host's physical keyboard to qemu? so that i can type instead of using the keyboard app Jul 01 11:49:30 Umm Jul 01 11:49:40 ravan: -usbdevice keyboard Jul 01 11:49:41 there are keyboard relayer apps over X Jul 01 11:49:47 or that Jul 01 11:50:38 alternatively, if you have a physical USB keyboard you can connect it to the VM, but you won't get it back ;) Jul 01 11:51:06 unless you replug it Jul 01 11:51:29 counter Jul 01 11:51:29 (last update 2007-06-30T13:10) http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter 60% for P1 in a week, a day 00:08:26 (8.006±1.0 days) (1658;242) Jul 01 11:52:46 balrog-kun: -usbdevice keyboard works perfectly Jul 01 11:53:21 :) Jul 01 11:54:29 http://sourceforge.net/projects/xkbdrelay/ Jul 01 11:54:30 forex Jul 01 11:54:37 SpeedEvil: i'm not using X Jul 01 11:55:07 I mean connect to the X running on the neo. Jul 01 11:55:14 oh Jul 01 11:55:16 I see. Jul 01 11:55:19 SpeedEvil: i have no X on neo Jul 01 11:55:20 Sorry. Jul 01 11:55:24 aaaand it would need a reliable networking first Jul 01 11:55:44 :) Jul 01 11:55:59 What are you doing if you've got no X? Jul 01 11:56:23 i'm trying to get get a qtopia app to work Jul 01 11:56:42 ewwww Jul 01 11:57:16 balrog-kun: why? Jul 01 11:57:55 qtopia -> qt -> C++, no X, and other nastiness :) Jul 01 11:58:45 balrog-kun: i thought qtopia -> qt -> C++ => good, no X => fast ? Jul 01 11:59:50 that's relative i guess Jul 01 12:00:56 lack of X is mostly a space saving IMO Jul 01 12:02:03 i just wanted to try.. only because i use kde and have done a little qt programming Jul 01 12:02:59 btw, gadgetfs didn't work on debian etch 2.6.18 either Jul 01 12:08:06 aah... if DUMMY_HCD is marked as development, maybe the distro disabled it.. will have to recompile my kernel Jul 01 12:09:00 i use it as a module Jul 01 12:28:22 balrog-kun: hi Jul 01 12:28:52 hey jserv2 Jul 01 12:29:23 Stephmw: hi Jul 01 12:30:07 jserv2: hiya Jul 01 12:30:33 balrog-kun: how can I get usb0 working inside qemu emulation? Jul 01 12:30:51 balrog-kun: I meant that in the moment. Jul 01 12:31:17 jserv2: with -usbdevice net: or with -usbgadget? Jul 01 12:31:50 balrog-kun: ok, I know the later works, but for former, I have no idea. Jul 01 12:32:24 jserv2: i don't know how to get the former to work reliably Jul 01 12:32:37 balrog-kun: ok, thanks :-) Jul 01 12:33:08 balrog-kun: By the way, do you accept the Win32 patch against virtual modem for qemu-neo1973? Jul 01 12:33:10 it was written by tomas sailer and i think he never finished it Jul 01 12:33:27 jserv2: for the asprintf() stuff? Jul 01 12:33:45 balrog-kun: no, at least for passing compilation. Jul 01 12:34:22 -- Jul 01 12:34:23 #include Jul 01 12:34:23 #include Jul 01 12:34:23 #include Jul 01 12:34:23 #include Jul 01 12:34:25 -- Jul 01 12:34:42 balrog-kun: they are absent for MinGW/Win32. Jul 01 12:34:44 * balrog-kun thinks that asprintf is a very handy function and win32 sucks if it doesn't have it :) Jul 01 12:34:59 jserv2: maybe a patch for this should go to gnokii Jul 01 12:40:34 jserv2: btw. there's a qemu tree at http://hackndev.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/hackndev/qemu/ which supposedly builds on win32 Jul 01 12:41:08 max Jul 01 12:41:10 oops Jul 01 12:41:48 balrog-kun: yes, I know. but it disabled Win32 build of virtual modem. Jul 01 12:42:05 ah ok Jul 01 12:42:37 balrog-kun: I just have fixlet in my svn mirror - https://opensvn.csie.org/openmoko_addons/openmoko-emulator/ Jul 01 12:42:57 balrog-kun: so it works on Win32 as far as I know. Jul 01 13:09:19 <_buz> http://rss.slashdot.org/~r/Slashdot/slashdot/~3/129463895/article.pl uhm lol? Jul 01 13:10:19 Oh, thought that said -"No 64-bit windows for iPhone"... Which wouldn't really be news... Jul 01 13:12:21 <_buz> another reason not to buy an iphone Jul 01 13:12:26 <_buz> who in their right mind would use itunes Jul 01 13:14:19 soo true:-) Jul 01 13:14:38 foobar2000 is a good music player for windows Jul 01 13:15:26 but amarok > * Jul 01 13:30:49 hey folks Jul 01 13:30:50 ;-) Jul 01 13:32:45 <_buz> amarok is being ported to win Jul 01 13:32:51 <_buz> i think there are even screenshots of it running around Jul 01 13:35:14 there ist also a portation to MacOSX Jul 01 13:35:37 I think it is easyer with QT 4 Jul 01 13:35:56 anyone else put off the iphone by the whole webapp-only thing? Jul 01 13:36:04 white_gecko: yeah, I think there are plans for many of the 'kde' apps to be cross platform, once qt4 is available Jul 01 13:36:06 ewanm89_laptop: yes Jul 01 13:36:15 crap... ewon, yes Jul 01 13:36:18 sorry ewanm89_laptop Jul 01 13:44:26 i guess with 512MB flash there's no reason not to install kde too Jul 01 13:45:00 lol Jul 01 13:45:15 * koen still gets the impression people really don't get '285DPI, vga' Jul 01 13:45:27 it will be so neat to have a palmtop and not go through contortions to get gcc and libc-lite headers and so on onto it Jul 01 13:45:29 Yeah. Jul 01 13:45:49 i think i'm used to 120dpi qvga Jul 01 13:45:53 Make a 2.4" window on your desktop display. Jul 01 13:46:38 You don't have to back off far before you can't see the pixels Jul 01 13:46:56 summatusmentis: I'm put off by it too. Jul 01 13:47:18 :-) stupid nick complete Jul 01 13:47:28 * summatusmentis should learn to type further in before hitting Jul 01 13:48:02 :OOO 8 GB microSD available Jul 01 13:48:08 <_buz> price? Jul 01 13:48:12 wonder how much it costs Jul 01 13:48:18 <_buz> i will still have to try kde on neo ;) Jul 01 13:48:31 <_buz> just to see what happens ;) Jul 01 13:48:34 I really think you wont :) Jul 01 13:48:42 <_buz> why Jul 01 13:48:42 summatusmentis: What client are you using? Jul 01 13:48:50 ewanm89_laptop: Xchat Jul 01 13:49:10 does anyone know the price for the 8 GB microSD? Jul 01 13:49:22 <_buz> Basheri: where do you see those Jul 01 13:49:26 Basheri, there's no price because theres no 8gb microSD Jul 01 13:49:31 <_buz> i cant find anything but vapor announcements Jul 01 13:49:31 * summatusmentis guesses 3 digits at least Jul 01 13:49:44 summatusmentis: Ah, irssi tabcompletion cycles through if you press tab again. Jul 01 13:50:14 <_buz> 4gb is now roughly 40EUR Jul 01 13:50:16 ewanm89_laptop: well, so does xchat, I just tend to assume the computer can read my mind, and pick the correct person :-P Jul 01 13:50:46 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/IPhone Jul 01 13:50:51 xchat cycles through? Jul 01 13:50:55 _buz, in the stores it is 40 €, but it isn't available Jul 01 13:50:58 see storage section Jul 01 13:51:01 so the price is totally useless Jul 01 13:51:09 eat-> Jul 01 13:51:17 miip: yeah, hit tab again, if you get the wrong one Jul 01 13:51:26 <_buz> mhh some online shops claim to have it on stock Jul 01 13:51:40 hmm my xchat shows a list of all matching nicks Jul 01 13:51:41 <_buz> some serious one, too Jul 01 13:51:51 miip: really? hrm.. maybe it's a setting hold on Jul 01 13:51:55 <_buz> http://www.architronic.ch/?id=000902215 claims to have 27 on stock Jul 01 13:52:57 <_buz> (and their stock data usually is correct) Jul 01 13:53:47 miip: I can't find a specific setting, I've seen xchat do that too, so it must give a setting somewhere Jul 01 13:54:15 summatusmentis: maybe i should update... Jul 01 13:54:34 maybe, I don't know... I'm just using what gentoo give me :-) Jul 01 13:56:57 iPhone || neo, || Opening case sources voids warranty || Advanced version comes with guitar tick and Torx T6 screwdriver so you can open case. Jul 01 14:17:46 sweet Jul 01 14:17:53 I now have openmoko running on my Palm Treo 650 :) Jul 01 14:18:42 Elleo: madness Jul 01 14:18:50 how mature is Linux on such hardware? Jul 01 14:19:28 palm linux people == the knights of NIH Jul 01 14:19:40 well, one some of the palm devices it's pretty well established now (life drive, etc.) Jul 01 14:19:53 but I think I'm only something like the 5th or 6th person to get it running on a Treo Jul 01 14:20:07 koen: what is NIH? Jul 01 14:20:35 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Not_Invented_Here Jul 01 14:20:47 "Not Invented Here (NIH) is a term used to describe a persistent sociological, corporate or institutional culture that avoids using already existing products, research or knowledge because of its different origins. " Jul 01 14:21:15 the redhat syndrome ;p Jul 01 14:21:18 <_buz> mhh what does a treo 650 retail for these days Jul 01 14:21:29 <_buz> (are they even available retail ?) Jul 01 14:21:43 wasn't the 650 EOL's 2 years ago? Jul 01 14:22:01 heh :) Jul 01 14:22:05 <_buz> still being sold it seems Jul 01 14:22:07 redhat people are not _that_ bad Jul 01 14:22:12 <_buz> but 350EUR is crazy Jul 01 14:22:33 I've been drinking with Alan Cox before, apart from his penchant for wearing bright red hats, he's a pretty cool guy Jul 01 14:22:36 ewon: no, I know they're not that bad, and it's mostly not even intentional Jul 01 14:23:08 redhat do pretty damn well from an ethics pov Jul 01 14:23:22 compare suse, caldera (!), etc. Jul 01 14:23:28 ewon: afaik redhat's aiming for the opposite Jul 01 14:23:28 heh, caldera Jul 01 14:23:29 s/suse/novell Jul 01 14:23:33 also I'm having a hard time believing redhat rpm vs jbj rpm is not related to NIH Jul 01 14:23:53 jbj? Jul 01 14:23:55 I try to stay out of the poltical side of Linux Jul 01 14:24:00 I used What Works(TM) Jul 01 14:24:02 ie. rh & novell is the only ones who aren't using jbj rpm Jul 01 14:24:02 *use Jul 01 14:24:13 hence, I use Debian most of the time :) Jul 01 14:24:20 hehehe Jul 01 14:24:21 mosno: jeff b. johnson, rpm author, rh ex-employee Jul 01 14:24:42 friend of mine keeps telling me to use suse... but then he works there, so his opinion might be biased Jul 01 14:24:44 <_buz> 260$ for treo 650 on ebay Jul 01 14:24:46 debian is very political :) Jul 01 14:25:01 sure it is, but I have nothing to do with it :) Jul 01 14:25:08 true (same here) Jul 01 14:25:09 http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-advisory-board/2006-August/msg00108.html Jul 01 14:25:26 Kero: letting bureuacracy getting in the way of actual technical achievements.. Jul 01 14:25:56 no wonder ubuntu made success of forking debian and solve those problems.. Jul 01 14:25:57 have a look at Joomla to see what you get if you care too little about politics Jul 01 14:26:51 mosno: interesting post Jul 01 14:27:03 Ubuntu haven't forked Debian per se Jul 01 14:27:16 mosno: rpm didn't do anything on rpm after jbj left untill they started in december and there's has been very puny developments compared to jbj rpm, and most other rpm distros use jbj rpm.. Jul 01 14:27:21 mosno: semantics Jul 01 14:27:31 Dvalin: use what you like. i dont use either. Jul 01 14:27:53 well, whatever Debian package in their rpm*.deb Jul 01 14:28:25 Stephmw: thanks Jul 01 14:28:45 _buz, if one looks hard, one can get a working treo 650 on ebay for less than $200 USD. Jul 01 14:29:00 <_buz> well for 240$ you can get brand new ones Jul 01 14:29:16 <_buz> i like the treo form factor Jul 01 14:29:20 <_buz> but not so much their hardware Jul 01 14:29:23 The 680 and 700p are just not as good as the old 650 ;-) Jul 01 14:29:27 <_buz> (and the bloody antenna is so 1995) Jul 01 14:30:56 I have hopes of replacing my 650 with a Neo some day... but you can't drop the neo on a conference room table -- it looks too much like a pool toy. !! Jul 01 14:31:10 The Treos still look professional, even though they are dated. Jul 01 14:31:37 They look... dated if you ask me. Jul 01 14:31:47 agreed Jul 01 14:32:02 although, the neo doesn't look the most 'enterprise'y either Jul 01 14:32:10 Mine looks both dated, and well-worn. Jul 01 14:32:13 <_buz> neo looks like a kids toy Jul 01 14:32:33 <_buz> once i get one, i might look into doing a custom case Jul 01 14:32:52 _buz: then selling it right? Jul 01 14:32:57 <_buz> maybe Jul 01 14:33:02 :-D Jul 01 14:34:04 I suspect it'll be a while before the software is ready for that; by then hopefully someone will have a less "pool toy" looking version. Jul 01 14:34:06 <_buz> a good prototyping company would help Jul 01 14:34:47 Until then, I'll be happy hacking on it whatever the case (although I sure hope they adequate quantities of any color except that orange!) Jul 01 14:34:48 I think the available pictures overemphasize things though. Jul 01 14:34:54 I bet it looks better in reality. Jul 01 14:35:14 SuN: have you seen the flickr pictures taken? Jul 01 14:35:21 it doesn't look terrible Jul 01 14:35:26 * ewon not a suit, and hence cares not for how the Neo looks on conference room tables Jul 01 14:35:28 <_buz> weird in any case Jul 01 14:35:46 in fact, my boss gives me abuse for wearing shirts to work Jul 01 14:35:53 * SuN doesn't think it looks bad either Jul 01 14:36:03 ewon: what in the world do you do? Jul 01 14:36:34 <_buz> who would wear shirts voluntarily??? Jul 01 14:36:38 ewon, I find that the suits have money. Therefore, despite my own misgivings about wearing a suit, there is some reason to sit at a conference table with them :-D Jul 01 14:37:19 <_buz> and they generally dislike the idea of giving money to non suits Jul 01 14:37:23 <_buz> hence you need a suit too Jul 01 14:37:35 summatusmentis: I'm a C++ coder, I work in the games industry Jul 01 14:37:46 and they don't care if you wear a shirt? Jul 01 14:37:51 personally i have found that level of clue/smartness etc. is inversely proportional to how fgormal a "suit" people wear Jul 01 14:37:54 most of them wear t shirts Jul 01 14:37:55 the more dressed up they are Jul 01 14:37:55 * summatusmentis needs a job like that in 4 years Jul 01 14:37:58 half of them barefoot Jul 01 14:38:00 Suit lesson #1: do NOT take a Nokia cell phone to a meeting with Motorola suits. (Don't ask me how I learned this lesson, though!) Jul 01 14:38:04 the less the chance of there being solid clue Jul 01 14:38:19 I find it easier to get into "work mode" if I wear a shirt Jul 01 14:38:25 other than that - i think its quite silly to focus on what you wear Jul 01 14:38:25 guess that's due to my time with IBM Jul 01 14:38:30 when your job is not client-facing Jul 01 14:38:35 mwester-laptop: or have the operator logo in your phone when visiting their competitor Jul 01 14:38:55 mwester-laptop: that cost an accounting firm their contract with the biggest telco in .nl Jul 01 14:38:58 <_buz> for some reason, people seem to be more friendly when you walk around in a suit Jul 01 14:39:02 mwester-laptop: take a neo1973 :) Jul 01 14:39:06 <_buz> not that i terribly care for them being friendly Jul 01 14:39:18 mwester-laptop: yeah, some people are just too anal Jul 01 14:39:24 I've found people assume your a Senior Person(tm) if you wear a shirt Jul 01 14:39:32 can be useful for getting people to do your bidding :) Jul 01 14:39:43 *you're Jul 01 14:39:47 raster: there are some non-suits there who would very much love to see the Neo for real... I will be bringing it in when I get one. Jul 01 14:40:24 ewon: i find smiling and asking nicely works Jul 01 14:41:16 http://blog.mikeasoft.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/07/treo-openmoko.jpg :) Jul 01 14:42:57 Elleo: nice Jul 01 14:43:23 <_buz> somehow, i expect rapid prototyping cases to be hideously expensive Jul 01 14:43:28 mwester-laptop: dicing with death! :) Jul 01 14:44:04 Naah. Jul 01 14:44:11 Really cheap. Jul 01 14:44:27 * SpeedEvil passes _buz a file, a micrometer, and a block of steel. Jul 01 14:44:49 <_buz> somehow i doubt that a steel case would do much good to rf Jul 01 14:45:05 Meh. Jul 01 14:45:26 Elleo: that's cool Jul 01 14:45:32 That's what the external head-mounted antenna is for. Jul 01 14:45:36 There are four options. Jul 01 14:45:44 Tinky Winky, Dipsy, Lala and Po. Jul 01 14:45:47 going to have a go at hacking support for the treo's gsm chip in to gsmd when I get some more free time Jul 01 14:45:48 <_buz> wood might work Jul 01 14:46:05 <_buz> and is comparably easy to deal with Jul 01 14:46:14 <_buz> it wouldmake for a thick phone though Jul 01 14:46:17 SpeedEvil: I fail to see what the teletubbies have anything to do w/ the neo? Jul 01 14:46:27 <_buz> teletubbies have antenna Jul 01 14:46:28 oh, hrr.. nvm Jul 01 14:46:31 summatusmentis: head mounted antenna for a steel cased neo. Jul 01 14:46:44 yeah, I'm terrible at life today. minimal sleep last night Jul 01 14:46:53 nvm, just ignore me :-) Jul 01 14:46:53 Wood has problems though. Jul 01 14:47:04 It is _Very_ soft. Jul 01 14:47:07 and she compiles \o/ Jul 01 14:47:11 (comparatively) Jul 01 14:47:14 <_buz> that depends on the wood really Jul 01 14:47:17 (to metal) Jul 01 14:47:19 * ewon does the compile-can't-touch-this dance Jul 01 14:47:22 At least the finish is. Jul 01 14:47:26 <_buz> yeah Jul 01 14:47:33 <_buz> but metal is not interesting Jul 01 14:47:38 <_buz> polymers are Jul 01 14:47:40 If you expect a nice glossy waterproof surface, then wood is hard to do. Jul 01 14:47:54 <_buz> i DONT want glossy Jul 01 14:48:06 <_buz> ideally i would want softtouch plastic Jul 01 14:48:10 If you accept that it will mark and have usage marks, then oiled wood works very well. Jul 01 14:48:26 <_buz> yeah but you need thick walls for it to be stable Jul 01 14:50:44 <_buz> ideally you'd have a very rigid internal case and a soft outer case Jul 01 14:50:44 ooh, buildhost is back up Jul 01 14:51:07 _buz: Talk to the nice people at realdoll! Jul 01 14:51:29 <_buz> never seen one in real, but i imagine that would do ;) Jul 01 14:52:20 re Jul 01 14:53:25 ewon: very nice indeed! (If I didn't rely on my Treo for everything, I'd be interested in trying that!) Jul 01 14:53:55 Is the Treo modem an 'external' or a 'winmodem' ? Jul 01 14:55:29 SpeedEvil: it's a chip that runs independant of the OS Jul 01 14:55:35 K Jul 01 14:55:44 you can send AT commands to it, although you have to do a little fiddling to get it in to AT mode Jul 01 14:55:45 That's not so bad. Jul 01 14:55:51 (PalmOS talks to it in a binary mode) Jul 01 14:56:09 The 'winGSM' ones may be nearly impossible to get working. Jul 01 14:56:19 Not to mention illegal to do in some places. Jul 01 14:56:25 Will openmoko/oe work without psyco (to compile it). Jul 01 14:56:59 ewanm89_laptop: as far as I know psyco just speeds up bitbake somewhat Jul 01 14:57:07 but it'll work find without it Jul 01 14:57:27 Elleo: Thanks, as I thought, psyco doesn't work on 64bit. Jul 01 14:57:36 ah, right Jul 01 14:58:04 ewanm89_laptop: you don't have 32 bit libs installed? Jul 01 15:01:23 AntonTakk: You have to compile the python interpreter in 32bit for 32bit compatibility too, (which I do not want to do for other reasons). Jul 01 15:04:23 I note that sparkfun sells AT commandable GSM modems. Jul 01 15:04:44 Are there any AT commandable 3G/... modules sold anywhere in ones? Jul 01 15:06:06 any superwaba heads awakw? Jul 01 15:06:09 *awake Jul 01 15:06:18 * ewon wonders why superwaba appears to lack an IRC channel Jul 01 15:06:43 the superwaba gnomes haven't deemed you worthy Jul 01 15:06:56 it appears so. Jul 01 15:06:59 * ewon weeps softly Jul 01 15:07:31 it appears the superwaba vm uses a bytecode spec that's older than death Jul 01 15:07:53 oh, neat, it chooses what icons to put on the main menu by usage Jul 01 15:08:48 what is the shortest path to getting an OpenMoko helloworld running on an ubuntu box? Jul 01 15:09:26 http://blog.mikeasoft.com/2007/07/01/openmoko-on-a-treo-650/ Jul 01 15:09:50 I am trying MokoMakefile but i am not sure i need all that stuff to just try developing a small gtk app Jul 01 15:11:08 ignas: the wiki covers getting openmoko running in emus, and i believe you also need to setup OpenEmbedded Jul 01 15:11:30 MokoMakefile is doing that just now Jul 01 15:11:59 the wiki covers more than one different option and i am not sure how they relate one to another Jul 01 15:12:36 QEMU, MokoMakefile, Xoo, Xephyr and OpenMoko_Apps_on_PC :/ Jul 01 15:13:17 qemu - emulates the neo1973's hardware and runs openmoko on it Jul 01 15:13:34 xoo ans xephyr are other EMUs Jul 01 15:13:52 open moko on pc is just that Jul 01 15:13:58 compiling it all for pc Jul 01 15:14:43 so it seems that apps on a pc should be the one with least dependencies Jul 01 15:14:56 but it starts at: Set up the environment Jul 01 15:15:16 without any explanation where should i get the "/src/target/OM-2007" from Jul 01 15:15:29 technically one of (or both) Xoo and Xephys, i don't remember which, is not an emulator, but that's just semantics Jul 01 15:15:59 i think they are just 2 different ways of running a nested Xserver for openmoko applications running on a PC Jul 01 15:16:04 balrog-kun: ah, i had never heard of either until last night, so :) Jul 01 15:16:14 (script) openmoko-community: Sean Moss-Pultz Re: Advertising/hype Jul 01 15:16:23 ignas: right, that's why Jul 01 15:16:58 for most apps, it's not too unsatisfying to develop it in a regular PC environment Jul 01 15:17:03 (imho) Jul 01 15:17:13 yep, but how do i set one up? Jul 01 15:17:39 OpenMoko_Apps_on_PC instructions start somewhere where i have something set up already... Jul 01 15:18:14 i don't know anything about the openmoko apps :) I assumed you were developing from scratch Jul 01 15:18:37 I'm so excited about the possibility of totally not using any openmoko UI elements Jul 01 15:19:38 I'm so excited about the phone itself, and have been for months. Too much excitement :| Jul 01 15:19:41 i am the lazy type - the less i have to do myself, the more time i can spend doing something i want to Jul 01 15:19:45 ;) Jul 01 15:19:55 i'm so fortunate to have only learned about it a couple weeks before release Jul 01 15:20:42 having a special version of gtk for moko app dev is sucky :( Jul 01 15:20:51 must fix... Jul 01 15:21:35 raster, special in what way? Jul 01 15:21:50 needing extra widgets Jul 01 15:21:58 i guess they come from extra libs... Jul 01 15:22:04 i wonder how dificult it would be to create a mobile-friendly ui for pidgin Jul 01 15:22:08 oh yeah, like the finger stuff Jul 01 15:22:12 thats mostly maemo stuff that needs a really specialised gtk Jul 01 15:22:29 maybe i should make my lcars hack on top of gtk, i think it contains most of the same graphical elements as a finger ui Jul 01 15:22:55 AntonTakk: the problem is mostly in the typing Jul 01 15:23:04 and that means a mobile friendly vkbd Jul 01 15:23:13 right now mokos vkbd is not very friendly Jul 01 15:23:30 maemo is for the nokia770? Jul 01 15:23:37 770/800 Jul 01 15:23:38 yes Jul 01 15:23:49 we need to bridge some gaps Jul 01 15:24:01 and make sure maemo and openmoko do not diverge too much Jul 01 15:24:13 they should at least remain as compatible as possible for normal windowed apps Jul 01 15:24:31 raster: true, that's actually my single biggest gripe with the neo, no reasonably useable (with fingers) keyboard, unfortunately, i'm not much of a programmer Jul 01 15:24:56 AntonTakk: i am actually struggling to think of how u can have a usable kbd on the screen of the neo Jul 01 15:25:05 well one that u can use with thumbs/fingers Jul 01 15:25:08 i developed a stupid little pda input program, but "reasonably usable" is always a compromise Jul 01 15:25:10 the screen is so small Jul 01 15:25:41 i think -on a god day Jul 01 15:25:47 you can fit 5 buttons hotizontally Jul 01 15:25:57 that u have a chance of pressing right with your thumbs or fingers Jul 01 15:26:11 maybe 2 or 3 rows of these at best Jul 01 15:26:17 4 if u make the kbd really tall Jul 01 15:26:17 raster: my initial thoughts was use the accelerometer(s) (in the final version) and display a larger on screen kbd in appropriate areas when it is flipped on it's side Jul 01 15:26:17 raster: so... landscape? Jul 01 15:26:20 it takes some training but i can be almost as good with my fingernail as with the stylus Jul 01 15:26:22 thats still not even the alphabet Jul 01 15:26:35 summatusmentis: doesnt matter Jul 01 15:26:39 then u get fewer rows Jul 01 15:26:43 who needs full alphabet, alternative input methods FTW Jul 01 15:26:43 ;) Jul 01 15:26:44 have you all seen xstroke? graffiti-like on X, and plays well with matchbox Jul 01 15:26:45 a slide out keyboard like the HTC one would do the job Jul 01 15:26:56 although it's too late for such a large change to GTA02 Jul 01 15:27:02 galexande: some peole like draweing Jul 01 15:27:02 but Jul 01 15:27:06 it requres a stylus Jul 01 15:27:16 nah i do it with my fingernail all the time :) Jul 01 15:27:16 I'd much prefer something as 'finger-oriented' as possible Jul 01 15:27:17 also i think there is a genral trend away from handwriting inpuit Jul 01 15:27:20 as its complex Jul 01 15:27:22 raster: with a line or two for text entry/editing Jul 01 15:27:25 and generally inaccurate Jul 01 15:27:32 note that palm have moved to kbd's Jul 01 15:27:45 on most pdas and phones if they support handwriting Jul 01 15:27:47 yeah...i don't know about you, though, i'm bucking the trend away from running shells on phones :) Jul 01 15:27:47 at all Jul 01 15:27:56 it is normally a secondary input now Jul 01 15:28:32 between all the input strategies, it's like 20wpm vs 18wpm, painful Jul 01 15:29:18 there has to be a better way Jul 01 15:29:19 just carry a USB keyboard around :P Jul 01 15:29:21 i'm dreaming of hooking a keyboard up to mine, and training myself to be able to read 80x25 at 285dpi :) Jul 01 15:29:28 IMO - finger letter entry has a place. Jul 01 15:29:40 are sources of the keypad available in the development package? Jul 01 15:29:45 galexande: reading a terminal of 80x60 or so Jul 01 15:29:47 on the neo is eays Jul 01 15:29:51 its the input Jul 01 15:30:03 hahaha awesome, i'm excited then Jul 01 15:30:04 For example - I'm interested in position independant glyph entry. Jul 01 15:30:06 * ignas would like to try out the mobile phone input style, but instead of clicking the same button multiple times Jul 01 15:30:12 i think the neo will need something closer to a normal numberpad input Jul 01 15:30:14 you press the number Jul 01 15:30:15 Where you can enter a glyph anywhere on the display. Jul 01 15:30:18 where u just have fewer buttons on screen Jul 01 15:30:18 and drag up or down Jul 01 15:30:24 and need to press them multiple times Jul 01 15:30:26 ratehr than having to press potentially small buttons. Jul 01 15:30:27 until the letter you need is selected Jul 01 15:30:34 and have a guesser based on dictionaries Jul 01 15:30:35 speed, have you played with xstroke? Jul 01 15:30:44 galexande: no Jul 01 15:31:33 ignas, if i understand you correctly, that's how my input works... it shows you a 3x3 grid, and you click on one grid element (category) and it shows you another set, and you drag to where you want in teh second set and release and iyou get a keypress Jul 01 15:31:45 speed, it's like palm graffiti, but you can draw anywhere on the screen Jul 01 15:31:51 and it shows you what you're drawing as you draw it Jul 01 15:31:55 galexande: basically the same idea. Jul 01 15:32:05 that's not how xstroke works Jul 01 15:32:08 galexande: I have wacky thoughts about extending it for whole words. Jul 01 15:32:29 maybe we just need multiple input keyboards Jul 01 15:32:34 galexande: you mean like pie mouse gestures? Jul 01 15:32:35 and people just choose their favorite Jul 01 15:32:35 :) Jul 01 15:32:42 it segments a stroke in a 3x3 grid and tracks the sequence of grid activations Jul 01 15:32:43 the joys of open and choice Jul 01 15:32:44 :) Jul 01 15:32:46 speed, that might really be enough to make it practical, but it'd be hard because if it misses a letter in the middle of the word, you don't want to reenter the whole word Jul 01 15:33:00 what is the difference between Neo Base and Neo Advanced? Jul 01 15:33:10 It's nothing to do with letter. Jul 01 15:33:12 dcordes: basically debugging boards/utilities Jul 01 15:33:19 koen, yeah, i was actually inspired from reading xstroke code, but i decided to make it explicit, so everything is from one grid coordinate to another, rather than a complicated path through several Jul 01 15:33:28 and i think xstroke has newer recognition strategies which are somewhat less 'simple' Jul 01 15:33:40 galexande: have a look at matchbox-stroke, that's a re-implementation of xstroke Jul 01 15:33:47 ignas, pie mouse? Jul 01 15:33:55 tghe problem is things like xstroke rely on interpreting strokes that may aslo be drags of a scrollbar Jul 01 15:33:57 or other things Jul 01 15:34:02 "pie menu" thingie Jul 01 15:34:02 koen, will do thanks Jul 01 15:34:07 galexande: I mean basically instead of 26 (ish) glyphs - you may have a few hundred, with an extra stroke or two Jul 01 15:34:16 i lost track of matchbox development before this new shared-lib based panel came out, i'm excited to see how that works too Jul 01 15:34:22 And hints if you stall on devices Jul 01 15:34:30 galexande: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pie_menu Jul 01 15:34:32 does openmoko has handwriting recognition ? Jul 01 15:34:42 no Jul 01 15:34:47 raster, is it possible to flash the device without those debugging stuff? Jul 01 15:34:54 dcordes: yes Jul 01 15:34:56 speed, i think there's a standard shortahand used by like court recorders, i bet making a stroke app for that would be real useful for people that already know it :) Jul 01 15:34:58 stall in the middle of a glyph Jul 01 15:35:01 u can flahs kernel and rootfs safely Jul 01 15:35:08 if u want to reflash the bootloader (uboot) Jul 01 15:35:10 you can too Jul 01 15:35:13 raster: The "recognize vs. scrollbar" thing is pretty easy to deal with, actually. Jul 01 15:35:14 but if that goes wrong Jul 01 15:35:15 w00t!! no handwriting recognition :-( Jul 01 15:35:21 you will be in trouble without the jtag debugging board Jul 01 15:35:33 cworth: well its a heuristic Jul 01 15:35:50 cworth: now when u can scroll just by click and drag on your list... Jul 01 15:35:52 can't OpenMoko just copy the iPhone keyboard? ;) Jul 01 15:35:55 anywhere on the screen Jul 01 15:35:58 raster, thanks i was wondering that same question (re flashing uboot) Jul 01 15:35:59 what is a swcroll Jul 01 15:36:01 and what is a stroke? Jul 01 15:36:02 :) Jul 01 15:36:03 raster: Just keep scrollbars near the edges and make sure there's a property on them that informs the recognizer "don't do recognition for drags starting on this widget". Jul 01 15:36:12 cworth: sure Jul 01 15:36:22 but now u assume scrollabrs/regions/gadgets are on the sides Jul 01 15:36:27 whihc may not be the case Jul 01 15:36:32 raster: Oh sure, if you want to do click-and-drag in the middle of the list, then it's different. Jul 01 15:36:38 yeah Jul 01 15:36:55 i was just gwettign to the "if u have "xstroke" it takes way other otions for usability Jul 01 15:36:59 or makes them more complicated Jul 01 15:37:01 at any rate Jul 01 15:37:06 raster: Well, rather than an assumption, I meant that one could design an entire system geared toward full-screen recognition. Jul 01 15:37:15 palm has the option tu turn on/off the full screen stroke handling iirc Jul 01 15:37:20 sure Jul 01 15:37:22 wow ignas it's kind of like pie menus...i think pie menus have a lot more things thought out, i like it. Jul 01 15:37:24 can do that Jul 01 15:38:35 heh, does the neo really not have a "d-pad"? Jul 01 15:38:51 galexande: no Jul 01 15:38:53 actually Jul 01 15:38:54 it doesnt Jul 01 15:39:02 galexande: two buttons. Jul 01 15:39:06 And the touchscreen is it. Jul 01 15:39:06 its very lean on the buttons depaertment Jul 01 15:39:35 thinking outside the box :) Jul 01 15:39:52 I'm thinking of adding hardware buttons. Jul 01 15:40:11 as for stylus editing - would it be possible to run dasher on neo? Jul 01 15:40:14 maybe just make more of the surface "touchable" Jul 01 15:40:19 like the front face Jul 01 15:40:21 back face Jul 01 15:40:23 sides Jul 01 15:40:24 etc. Jul 01 15:40:33 make every face a little flexible Jul 01 15:40:34 so if u press Jul 01 15:40:38 it goes "click" Jul 01 15:40:46 That's not really practical. Jul 01 15:40:46 as some "buttons" live inder every face Jul 01 15:40:53 and the screen too Jul 01 15:41:05 However, being able to sense touches on the case is plausible. Jul 01 15:41:11 Though with no feeling. Jul 01 15:41:26 Especially in a limited number - say 32 places Jul 01 15:41:32 imagine Jul 01 15:41:34 the screen Jul 01 15:41:41 The screen is a touchscreen Jul 01 15:41:46 was sitting on a layer of "buttons" Jul 01 15:41:50 or just a single button Jul 01 15:41:53 The screen is a touchscreen Jul 01 15:41:54 when u press the screen a bit Jul 01 15:41:56 it goes "click" Jul 01 15:41:59 like any button Jul 01 15:42:01 ignas, dasher is open source so if the answer today is no, tomorrow it would be yes. :) Jul 01 15:42:03 It's made of glass. Jul 01 15:42:14 so now a touych can at least have some kind of tactile feedback? Jul 01 15:42:14 So you can only press the four corners at most Jul 01 15:43:02 by the way - the screen is multi touch or only single touch? Jul 01 15:43:07 single Jul 01 15:45:04 and it can't be changed by software side changes? Jul 01 15:45:36 (a.k.a. it's a hardware "problem" and not software) Jul 01 15:45:40 ignas, it looks like dasher requires only gtk+, so i imagine it would be trivial to run it on the neo Jul 01 15:46:00 though it doesn't mention matchbox, it might take a little hacking to really be convenient in that environment Jul 01 15:46:00 galexande: i see Jul 01 15:47:10 the thing about touch screens that people forget is that you can press a button smaller than your finger is wide, because even though you touch a large area of the screen, the touchscreen (hopefully) only registers a single point in the center of your finger Jul 01 15:47:12 ignas: http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2006-December/000576.html Jul 01 15:47:34 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Neo1973_Battery_Charger]] [[Neo1973_Battery]] [[FAQ]] Jul 01 15:47:35 so i bet with a little practice you could use your finger on the keyboard Jul 01 15:49:44 galexande: true Jul 01 15:49:46 hrm Jul 01 15:49:50 Tjikkun: thanks Jul 01 15:50:07 galexande: in theory. Jul 01 15:50:20 i can run a terminal in the vm running openmoko, but see no way to enter text, and the keyboard doesn't seem to do the trick Jul 01 15:50:31 galexande: the problem is the resultant point when you press an area is not very defined Jul 01 15:51:11 And it's hard to see where you're pointing unless you have very controlled finger orientation Jul 01 15:51:28 speed, yeoah, i think you can train to it, but it is certainly touchy Jul 01 15:52:03 I demand more videos of neo running! Jul 01 15:52:04 :D Jul 01 15:52:15 so iphone screen is a bit larger, but with resolution twice as low? Jul 01 15:52:26 galexande: true Jul 01 15:52:27 but Jul 01 15:52:35 it becomes less accurate the smaller the button Jul 01 15:52:41 so if the butotn is about afinger in size Jul 01 15:52:42 its ok Jul 01 15:52:44 as it gets smaller Jul 01 15:52:50 you have less chaznce of getting the press right Jul 01 15:54:04 raster: thou that could be helped some by an auto-correcting spell checker, or even a popup menu for correcting manually Jul 01 15:55:03 yup Jul 01 15:55:11 i would assume that as a requirement actually Jul 01 15:55:24 partly because of typose and hitting the wrong key Jul 01 15:55:34 but probably more because a lot of people can't spell! :) Jul 01 15:57:56 galexande: hmm, i'd still go for - 9/12 buttons, and the character changes depending on how far you drag away from the press point Jul 01 15:58:14 of course with open source phone it's - "one who writes the code - makes the rules" ;) Jul 01 15:58:39 ighn that seems like an interesting idea Jul 01 15:58:50 making use of drags and not just presses Jul 01 15:59:02 ignas, i'm totally adjusting my input program to play with pie menu-inspired designs :) Jul 01 15:59:14 i'm also going to learn how fun dragging is with finger instead of fingernail Jul 01 15:59:16 raster: differently from button presses you can go back Jul 01 15:59:20 not just forward Jul 01 15:59:40 yup Jul 01 15:59:43 so if you drag "ABC" - after hitting "C" you can just drag closer to "ABC" and get B Jul 01 16:00:12 and the drag can be exaggerated Jul 01 16:00:21 so your drag needs to actually go futher than to "c" Jul 01 16:00:39 add in prediction with a dictionary Jul 01 16:00:40 and matches Jul 01 16:00:46 and u are probably not too bad Jul 01 16:01:28 now if only someone would try it out on a live phone ;) Jul 01 16:02:11 this is where community and open development probably will kick serious booty Jul 01 16:02:17 being able to try out crazy new ideas Jul 01 16:02:21 and have poelp actually try it Jul 01 16:02:26 before its "set in stone" Jul 01 16:02:28 in a product Jul 01 16:02:30 and refine it Jul 01 16:02:34 even include multiple ideas Jul 01 16:02:40 if 1 size does not fit all Jul 01 16:02:43 include multipel sizes Jul 01 16:02:44 :) Jul 01 16:02:54 maybe, my experience is - you get 10x times suggestions than developing time Jul 01 16:03:04 yup Jul 01 16:03:05 also not locking people out of phones helps Jul 01 16:03:06 and more people are expecting features than implementing them Jul 01 16:03:08 worse actually Jul 01 16:03:25 but then its not a matter of locking out development Jul 01 16:03:26 or ideas Jul 01 16:03:31 its ONLY sa matter of demand and supply Jul 01 16:03:32 ie Jul 01 16:03:37 demand for 100 features Jul 01 16:03:41 supply can only create 2 Jul 01 16:03:46 :( Jul 01 16:09:10 i don't know if i'm useful as a programmer, i tend to write everything to run in exactly my environment. it's rare that anyone else ever gets it to build :) Jul 01 16:11:59 same here =) Jul 01 16:12:51 (but i'm definately not even ok programmer, so it doesn't matter, since no one misses anything) Jul 01 16:16:46 any place i can get a list of the features of the apps included in openmoko? Jul 01 16:17:37 feature #1: full source code to everything. feature #2: permission to tear it down and rebuild Jul 01 16:17:43 what more could you want to know? :) Jul 01 16:18:20 specifically (at the moment) if there is caldav support in the calendar app Jul 01 16:19:11 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Calendar Jul 01 16:19:33 it kind of looks to me like the sort of thing i write before i start writing the app, so, maybe it doesn't even exist yet? Jul 01 16:21:20 it uses evolution-data-server as backend, so it can do anything evo can do Jul 01 16:22:56 koen: thanks Jul 01 16:25:21 looks cool Jul 01 16:50:11 what kind of storage backend openmoko contacts-app uses? Jul 01 16:50:48 Moo^^: why should we help you if you are too lazy to spend 2 minutes googling? Jul 01 16:51:08 Did anyone try a stock GtkSpinButton on the Neo? It seems foobar'd for me :-( Jul 01 16:51:27 gtkspinbutton? Jul 01 16:51:33 Yes. Jul 01 16:51:50 i'm not a dev, and you describe it? Jul 01 16:52:06 Elrond: foobared as in theming? Jul 01 16:52:25 koen: because it takes 2 second to answer the question Jul 01 16:52:30 :) Jul 01 16:52:33 I already googled Jul 01 16:52:42 google harder Jul 01 16:52:55 you don't have a support contract with us, so stop wasting our time Jul 01 16:53:08 zecke_ - Right. Jul 01 16:53:20 you haven't made a reasonable effort byh yourself, so we don't return the favor Jul 01 16:53:25 embedded eds Jul 01 16:53:44 see, it wasn't that hard Jul 01 16:53:52 koen: you don't need to be rude. I am interested in this project and I like to develop for OpenMoko as soon as I get P1 device. Jul 01 16:54:01 and now you learned a new skill called 'searching' Jul 01 16:54:05 koen: If you don't want to answer please don't attack against me Jul 01 16:54:18 anyone else with a ----> Could not add USB device 'gadget:1' Jul 01 16:54:26 Moo^^, this is not the best way to start :) Jul 01 16:54:42 if you are too lazy to mak a reasonable effort, stop insulting us by wasting our time Jul 01 16:54:53 koen: I will Jul 01 16:54:58 omg Jul 01 16:55:56 Elrond: can be, if you have used the theme on the desktop you will find a couple of unthemed states, widgets Jul 01 16:56:16 stat /dev/gadget/udc works Jul 01 16:56:26 *dummy_udc Jul 01 16:57:00 zecke_ - Hmm, I just ran a spinbutton example... which worked, so I start to believe, that it's some size allocation problem... Jul 01 16:58:06 Moo^^: You also serve the project by being a target for working off frustrations on :) Jul 01 16:58:15 koen: you wasted much more time by attacking when you could've just ignored him =) Jul 01 16:58:29 zell1983: this is not either best way to build open source community. I spend few minutes googling until I poked aroudn openmoko wiki few more minutes to find the answer. someone possessing this information could have typed the answer "EDS" in 0.3 seconds. Instead, being flamed as lazy really demotivates people to participant. They too, are spending their free time and share the open source goals and want to push the project forward. Jul 01 16:58:46 Indeed. Jul 01 16:58:58 IMO - ignore if you're not willing to spend the time answering. Jul 01 16:59:19 people that don't search but ask aren't going to be developers or usefull in any other kind Jul 01 16:59:29 omg Jul 01 16:59:36 they're the kind of trolls you find on mailinglists and IRC Jul 01 16:59:53 Treat them well and they may come back in October and bring their friends. Jul 01 17:00:11 koen: flamebait flamebait flamebait Jul 01 17:00:20 their friends asking the same questions again and again? Jul 01 17:00:27 koen: take your medication or be cruel to your pet Jul 01 17:00:30 Buying. Jul 01 17:00:43 koen: you can treat people that won't really contribute much as "people who won't contribute much" or as "potential customers" Jul 01 17:00:52 i'm not a developer... maybe i'm not too good to be in the same channel that you're in Jul 01 17:01:41 I'm not a developer either Jul 01 17:01:45 well, guess it's wrong to be interested in the project =) Jul 01 17:01:56 anyways, this dicussion should not really take place here, since it has really negative tone and we could, for example, talk about the technical merits of Embedded Evolution Data Server Jul 01 17:02:00 ^_^ Jul 01 17:02:25 yeh, i just hate elitists Jul 01 17:02:28 It better support multiple backends Jul 01 17:02:34 if it can't read my bbdb ... useless Jul 01 17:03:02 (support here = 'could be written') Jul 01 17:03:22 I was wondering how easy it would build sync support for google account. This would be interesting from my point of view. Jul 01 17:07:36 i get about 10 wpm on my stroke program :( Jul 01 17:07:53 Yeah. Jul 01 17:08:03 It always seems faster in memory Jul 01 17:08:19 In concept rather Jul 01 17:08:24 galexande: can you use it without looking at the keyboard? Jul 01 17:08:25 before reducing to practice. Jul 01 17:09:12 ahahha ignas no Jul 01 17:10:49 galexande: can you post some screenshots? Jul 01 17:10:57 or are you running it on a phone? Jul 01 17:10:58 i also get 10wpm with xstroke Jul 01 17:11:20 i'm running it on my ipaq. i guess i ought to get one of those things to make mpegs out of X events Jul 01 17:14:54 Or a webcam Jul 01 17:16:33 yeah i'm tyring to make a youtube of it :) Jul 01 17:17:02 counter Jul 01 17:17:02 (last update 2007-06-30T13:10) http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter 60% for P1 in a week 18:42:53 (7.780±1.0 days) (1659;242) Jul 01 17:48:34 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Wish_List_-_Hardware]] Jul 01 18:02:18 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LDDXEk0dwzU - introduction to gstroke (my grid-based input hack) Jul 01 18:04:35 galexande: seems neat Jul 01 18:05:24 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YzV9QTTB6ys - and that is xstroke Jul 01 18:07:15 reminds me my "palm" Jul 01 18:07:23 me too Jul 01 18:07:53 cool Jul 01 18:08:34 xchat has got crap, what happened to open this channel at start, and why do i now have to right click links and select open in browser?! Jul 01 18:09:03 irssi <3 Jul 01 18:09:50 * ewon watches Jul 01 18:09:52 not bad Jul 01 18:10:02 still prefer a slide out keyboard though :) Jul 01 18:10:55 buy a bluetooth keyboard and attach it to neo with some cool trick Jul 01 18:10:59 :D Jul 01 18:11:38 no tricks needed, really. the neo has a built in bt transceiver, iirc Jul 01 18:12:11 it has Jul 01 18:12:14 i mean physically attach Jul 01 18:13:01 I have this thingy: http://www.pocketnow.com/html/portal/reviews/0000000725/review/freedom%20mini%20keyboard%20with%20device.jpg Jul 01 18:13:57 speaking of attaching Jul 01 18:14:03 ^^ Jul 01 18:20:04 anyone in? Jul 01 18:21:01 hello? Jul 01 18:21:06 No Jul 01 18:21:11 Just us chickens. Jul 01 18:21:17 ScaredyCat, in what? Jul 01 18:23:08 ! Jul 01 18:23:37 having trouble getting the dev env set up Jul 01 18:24:20 whcih I thought was fairly automated... Jul 01 18:24:25 but seems not Jul 01 18:26:36 checking gelf.h presence... no Jul 01 18:26:36 | checking for gelf.h... no Jul 01 18:26:36 | configure: error: ***** gelf.h not found ***** Jul 01 18:26:40 wtf is gelf Jul 01 18:28:18 g elf,.. Jul 01 18:28:38 ScaredyCat: apt-get install libelf-dev ? Jul 01 18:29:22 brought to you by "apt-file search gelf.h" Jul 01 18:29:49 * ScaredyCat not using debian system Jul 01 18:32:27 [11991.096000] dummy_udc dummy_udc: dequeued req dbdb6d00 from ep-c, len 4096 buf ceaa4000 Jul 01 18:32:41 ^^^ make sense to anyone? Jul 01 18:33:49 there are like thousands of those Jul 01 18:35:08 in the output of dmesg Jul 01 18:35:53 and the usb networking doesn't work even though both interfaces exist have proper addresses Jul 01 18:36:35 ravan: i see these messages too Jul 01 18:36:46 but it happends to work Jul 01 18:37:09 balrog-kun: phew Jul 01 18:37:29 ravan: i think there has been no other userspace program before qemu using the gadgetfs since the actual merging of gadgetfs into Linux which happened in 2.5 Jul 01 18:38:05 i had to work around a couple of completely braindead ideas that gadgetfs has before it worked Jul 01 18:38:19 like? Jul 01 18:38:52 like no way to know whether the host actually requested any IN transfer or not, Jul 01 18:39:09 you have to pump data whenever you haev any data available hoping that the host will make any use of it Jul 01 18:39:45 also, like assuming that all guests are high-speed USB2.0 if the host is Jul 01 18:40:03 balrog-kun: how do i work around those issues? Jul 01 18:40:15 and different node names for each host Jul 01 18:40:35 ravan: qemu worked around them already, you don't need to do anything Jul 01 18:40:41 :( Jul 01 18:41:38 so, do you have usb0 on both sides? Jul 01 18:41:54 balrog-kun: yes, with ip addresses assigned Jul 01 18:42:06 did the guest dmesg have information on the CDC ethernet being enabled after you plugged it in? Jul 01 18:42:09 but not able to ping either Jul 01 18:42:19 what are the IPs? Jul 01 18:42:33 192.168.0.200 and 202(neo) Jul 01 18:42:53 does ifconfig show any error/tx/rx/frame/overrun packets or all 0s? Jul 01 18:42:56 woohoo, got superwaba running Jul 01 18:43:00 dmesg is filled with the dequeued req messages Jul 01 18:43:10 ravan: the guest dmesg, not the host one Jul 01 18:44:00 it will probably be filled with battery measurements Jul 01 18:44:59 balrog-kun: yes, the guest has a message saying "using CDC Ethernet" Jul 01 18:45:35 are you sure iptables is not blocking your pings? Jul 01 18:45:46 ifconfig at guest shows 0 tx/rx/erros Jul 01 18:46:57 balrog-kun: yes. even if i have iptables, i should be able to ping the target right? Jul 01 18:47:23 ravan: i don't know Jul 01 18:47:29 it depends on how you configured iptables Jul 01 18:47:49 balrog-kun: no.. i can ping machines and i am pingable.. i have no firewall either Jul 01 18:48:07 ok Jul 01 18:49:38 at the host i have RX packets:0 errors:1 dropped:0 overruns:0 frame:1 Jul 01 18:49:50 i don't know what it may be, however if the usb0 interface appeared on the host then any problems are not qemu related and would also exists with a real Neo Jul 01 18:51:00 it did appear after i did a "usb_add gadget:1" Jul 01 18:51:34 ok, that's like plugging in the actual cable Jul 01 18:51:36 * ScaredyCat bangs head against wall Jul 01 18:51:46 * ravan joins ScaredyCat Jul 01 18:52:27 ravan: btw. what cured the 'gadgetfs: unknown filesystem'? Jul 01 18:54:03 balrog-kun: i had to custom compile a kernel with DUMMY_HDC support. it still didn't work. after adding a few hundred debugging expletives to vl.c and usb-linux-gadget.c i realised that qemu was still not building with gadgetfs support Jul 01 18:54:41 balrog-kun: turns out the reason was that the headers in /usr/include/linux should also be updated to point to the new headers Jul 01 18:54:42 ah Jul 01 18:55:27 * balrog-kun tried to emphasise that in the wiki :) Jul 01 18:55:39 where? Jul 01 18:55:57 * balrog-kun loads the page Jul 01 18:55:58 oh :( Jul 01 18:56:01 just saw it Jul 01 18:56:08 it wasn't in bold but Jul 01 18:58:06 balrog-kun: btw, the configure script in qemu-neo1973 doesn't report whether or not gadgetfs support is being built Jul 01 18:59:12 ravan: knowing qemu users nobody reads the messages printed by configure anyway :p Jul 01 18:59:19 ok.. time to sleep in my part of the world.. balrog-kun, thanks a lot for the help. will let you know if i can solve my latest problem Jul 01 18:59:28 ok, see you Jul 01 18:59:47 checking for gelf.h... no Jul 01 18:59:47 | configure: error: ***** gelf.h not found ***** Jul 01 18:59:49 @catnip:/home/moko> locate gelf.h Jul 01 18:59:49 /usr/include/libelf/gelf.h Jul 01 19:00:03 * ScaredyCat starts throwing toys Jul 01 19:01:02 libelfg0-dev: /usr/include/gelf.h Jul 01 19:04:36 yeah, unfortuneately there are no packages for suse 10.2 Jul 01 19:11:44 hey! would it be possible somehow to let the interface turn 90° whenever the phone gets turned? with the sensors in it maybe? Jul 01 19:11:57 yes Jul 01 19:12:28 edistar, phase1 doesnt have sensors Jul 01 19:12:38 in gta02 it will be no problem Jul 01 19:13:28 thomasg_: that would be a cool feature, but doesn't that need to be built in the basic UI? Jul 01 19:14:00 cause then you could quickly turn to write an sms with two fingers and type faster and then turn back to use it normally again.. Jul 01 19:14:45 my digital camera has that feature, quite funny actually ;) Jul 01 19:15:28 depends on what you mean built-in Jul 01 19:16:07 I mean that _everything_, the whole UI, gets rotated.. Jul 01 19:16:15 the apps need to be written so that they scale, but if that's done, rotation is X server's problem Jul 01 19:16:19 ok Jul 01 19:16:36 sounds good Jul 01 19:16:52 I'm not a programmer, so I don't know... Jul 01 19:17:15 and with gta02's gpu, the rotation shouldn't eat up power Jul 01 19:17:26 yes Jul 01 19:17:40 anyway, the keyword is "xrandr" Jul 01 19:18:35 ah, nice Jul 01 19:27:11 I may be stupid but I can't find information on how to build the openmoko qemu environment? can someone give me a link? Jul 01 19:27:37 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/OpenMoko_under_QEMU Jul 01 19:28:25 thanks Jul 01 19:28:42 is there anything else than qemu as an alternative? Jul 01 19:31:31 you can build the moko software for x86 Jul 01 19:33:42 has anyone managed to build under suse 10.2 ? Jul 01 19:34:31 mjr: where can I find information about that? Jul 01 19:34:45 just the sources from the svn and then ./configure? Jul 01 19:35:05 edistar: it's linked from the qemu page Jul 01 19:35:22 okey :) Jul 01 19:35:42 also use the search box on the left Jul 01 19:37:38 .. and put away any sharp objects... cos you'll end up stabbing yourself... Jul 01 19:37:57 to numb the pain Jul 01 19:38:42 heh Jul 01 19:38:45 could be worse Jul 01 19:39:02 I once spent a solid 2 months writing pretty much nothing but automake / autoconf files Jul 01 19:39:24 oh, the humanity! Jul 01 19:40:59 :P Jul 01 19:46:03 * nox-Hand explodes randomly Jul 01 19:46:26 * ScaredyCat helps Jul 01 19:48:43 * nox-Hand respawns as a bowl of pentunias Jul 01 19:48:51 Oh no, not again. Jul 01 19:48:57 pentunias? Jul 01 19:49:02 at least you weren't the whale Jul 01 19:49:17 A five-petalled flower? Jul 01 19:50:00 whale (!pentunia) { Jul 01 19:53:00 SpeedEvil: Afraid so Jul 01 19:53:00 my debian lenny doesn't want to install the openembedded-essential package.. anyone else have that problem? Jul 01 19:53:49 "As president, my first act would be to ensure that all of humanity has its legs SAWED OFF! Jul 01 19:53:49 ... Jul 01 19:53:49 Oh er... And have them REPLACED... With legs of pure gold! And I will grant you the power to fire LASERS FROM YOUR HEAD!" Jul 01 19:53:53 oops Jul 01 19:55:14 SpeedEvil: got carried away? Jul 01 19:56:00 Someone asked for the quote in another channel. Jul 01 19:56:55 hehe Jul 01 20:01:16 * balrog-kun won't vote for SpeedEvil, sorry Jul 01 20:17:36 i'd vote for him, over GWB. Jul 01 20:18:51 I also tend to go on about swapping out all non-mobile fossil fuel use for nuclear. For balance of trade reasons as well as energy security. Jul 01 21:15:38 is there any chance at all that fic will increase the size of the actual screen for GTA02? Jul 01 21:16:11 no Jul 01 21:16:32 I don't even understand why they should do that? Jul 01 21:17:05 just allowing for more 'finger capable' applications Jul 01 21:17:23 an onscreen keyboard, for instance Jul 01 21:17:34 the only reason i see for that is to "catch up" with the resolution which is just too good Jul 01 21:17:45 for a phone Jul 01 21:17:49 oh, maybe they should take a 15 inch widescreen, so we could watch films on it with 15 other people :) Jul 01 21:18:06 mostly just a curiosity, I didn't think it'd be likely to happen at all :-) Jul 01 21:18:20 thomasg_: lol, no, just by maybe less than an inch or something Jul 01 21:18:23 ^^ Jul 01 21:18:53 as gta02 will have the same housing, the chances to get a bigger screen are at 0% Jul 01 21:19:05 and imho it shouldn't be bigger than 2,8" Jul 01 21:19:06 thomasg_: ok, that's sort of what I assumed Jul 01 21:19:33 :-/. I wish the interface could be used completely w/ a finger, as compared to part finger part stylus Jul 01 21:19:37 how do you know it will have the same housing? Jul 01 21:19:51 needing to pull out a stylus to use a phone seems counter-intuitive Jul 01 21:19:58 i'm expecting that the formfactor change slightly before the final release Jul 01 21:20:02 particularly for text entry Jul 01 21:21:42 we were talking about this yesterday. finger is fine, but for some applications a finger is no alternative to a stylus Jul 01 21:22:08 I must've missed that conversation Jul 01 21:23:10 balrog-kun: final release being GTA02? Jul 01 21:23:12 so imho it makes sense to have both concepts Jul 01 21:23:28 Vegar, yes, concerning the hardware Jul 01 21:23:31 thomasg_: I just feel like a stylus is unwieldy Jul 01 21:23:32 Vegar: yes Jul 01 21:24:08 i don't know if there will be only one GTA02 or it will have subreleases like GTA01 Jul 01 21:24:16 or already has some, in the labs Jul 01 21:24:24 afaik, GTA02 is the 'user' version Jul 01 21:24:36 there will be other devices, some won't be 'phones' but yeah Jul 01 21:24:55 balrog-kun: didn't sean say there won't be any changes in housing? Jul 01 21:25:18 Vegar: oh, may be Jul 01 21:25:39 i didn't hear it if he said that Jul 01 21:25:55 it's on one of the MLs Jul 01 21:25:58 GTA0[12] will have the same housing. Jul 01 21:27:54 * balrog-kun likes changes :( Jul 01 21:33:32 thomasg_ - BTW, I heard you're somewhat "on duty" for the dialer GUI? Is that right? Jul 01 21:33:35 This does not mean that there will not be user-supplied cases. Jul 01 21:33:41 With perhaps extra buttons. Jul 01 21:34:02 SpeedEvil: well, that's true... hmm Jul 01 21:34:32 a 'blackberry' style scrollwheel would be cool, but I assume that requires an interface to the mobo.... Jul 01 21:34:36 * summatusmentis should learn to solder Jul 01 21:34:53 SpeedEvil Inc. selling unique Neos ;-) Jul 01 21:34:58 Elrond, what do you mean? Jul 01 21:35:41 thomasg_ - I just wanted to ask, if it's on purpose, that the number keys behave different (from clicking) than the say "dial" or "history" buttons. Jul 01 21:36:23 different? Jul 01 21:36:50 I don't know what you're talking about :) I'm not a developer Jul 01 21:37:48 thomasg_ - Huh, okay. :-)) Then forget it. Then I have mistaken you for someone else. :-| Jul 01 21:38:11 I think so :) Jul 01 21:38:16 Elrond: quit trying to assign people things :-P Jul 01 21:38:56 summatusmentis - Huh? Jul 01 21:39:09 nvm, bad joke Jul 01 21:39:20 not worth explaining at all Jul 01 21:39:36 * summatusmentis just has a warped sense of humor Jul 01 21:41:20 summatusmentis - hehe, okay. Jul 01 21:43:06 heh Jul 01 21:44:06 i think thomas w. may be the other person Jul 01 21:45:17 balrog-kun - Ahh, maybe. Jul 01 21:48:14 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Talk:Main_Page]] [[Neo1973_compatible_cellphone_providers]] Jul 01 22:18:00 wow I love svn, projects.openmoko.org is broken again Jul 01 22:26:29 hi Jul 01 22:30:02 I HATE SUBVERSION Jul 01 22:37:08 * SiAnDoG chiede se c' è qualke altro italiano. (Italy ?) Jul 01 22:37:21 sera Jul 01 22:43:57 * * OM Bug 623 has been created by  Jul 01 22:43:58 * * Subversion server refuses to accept new files Jul 01 22:43:59 * * http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=623 Jul 01 22:44:01 ho deciso quale sarà il mio prossimo cellulare ... http://www.openmoko.com/ http://www.openmoko.org/ Jul 01 22:44:36 è una figata, il sogno di una vita :) Jul 01 22:50:57 hi all Jul 01 23:21:04 counter? Jul 01 23:21:04 "/msg aloril counter?" for actual long message, giving short version here: (last update 2007-06-30T13:10) http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter 60% for P1 in a week 12:38:51 (7.527±1.0 days) (1660;242) Jul 01 23:49:34 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Main_Page]] [[Wishlist_-_Hardware_-_Novel_Devices]] [[Wishlist:Unlikely]] [[Wish_List_-_Hardware]] Jul 02 00:19:52 heh, people are just starting to realise how locked down and restrictive the iPhone is and that the things have not sold out Jul 02 00:20:43 i don't think people care much about it being locked down Jul 02 00:21:01 balrog-kun: they do when it doesnt work with their PC Jul 02 00:21:11 hehe. Jul 02 00:21:20 all phones since the 90s, since the beginning of mobile phones, were locked down Jul 02 00:21:29 and nobody was bothered Jul 02 00:21:50 Well, not locked to providers. Jul 02 00:22:07 Or you could at least buy non-simlocked ones. Jul 02 00:22:12 Anyway. Jul 02 00:22:16 Good night people. :-) Jul 02 00:22:57 iPhones are *all* simlocked? Jul 02 00:23:20 I assume so? Jul 02 00:23:44 Elrond: night Jul 02 00:23:52 Night. :-) Jul 02 00:36:22 you could always unlock the old phones Jul 02 00:37:51 yeah, if you paid the reserve you could ask for the phone to be unlocked Jul 02 00:38:40 the Telco support people would panic so I would just say Ive got another new phone and want to pass this unit on to a friend before hand Jul 02 00:39:56 you can buy a nice HTC phone with "more features" than the iPhone unlocked Jul 02 00:40:13 for under $600 Jul 02 00:42:45 Apple tried to put the hard word on the local major Telco (Telstra) on distributing the iPhone, Telstra basically said 1. blow it out your back end 2. we have no use for it in our product line up as we now use 3G GSM Jul 02 00:43:19 huh? Apple have locked it to AT&T; Telstra couldn't use it anyway. Jul 02 00:43:40 cjb: AT&T dont exists in Australia Jul 02 00:43:57 mainly because Telstra is so dominant here Jul 02 00:44:09 oh, ok. when does it release in Australia? Jul 02 00:44:43 cjb: well it depends if Apple update to 3G Jul 02 00:45:01 I can buy 3G phones now Jul 02 00:45:53 Anyone happen to know id there are 'AT' modem modules for 3G? Jul 02 00:46:34 Sparkfun has GSM ones. Jul 02 00:46:43 SpeedEvil: all I know is you can get a 3G card for your laptop Jul 02 00:47:18 Yeah, not exactly what I'm looking for. Jul 02 00:47:31 although with wimax rolling out next year that wont last long Jul 02 00:47:36 Well. Jul 02 00:47:41 Wimax is vastly overhyped Jul 02 00:47:49 Has anyone had a look at the iPhone now it's released? Jul 02 00:48:16 Not to mention that it looks like you're going to need a hugely complex reciever to do the wiimax thing worldwide. Jul 02 00:49:01 I definitly think that an OpenMoko based phone will be better because the iPhone is totally locked as far as development goes except for ajax apps. Jul 02 00:49:13 Depends. Jul 02 00:49:21 Openmoko may not take off fast enough. Jul 02 00:49:25 SpeedEvil: not really, you can buy multi bandwidth adaptive antenna for a few years now Jul 02 00:49:29 It may just be yet another stalled product. Jul 02 00:49:44 I hope not, and am doing all I can to make it not, but... Jul 02 00:49:53 linux_galore: now look at price/power/volume Jul 02 00:50:08 And we certainly don't want another Zaurus situation Jul 02 00:50:15 SpeedEvil: yeah, if wimax takes of the price will drop Jul 02 00:50:20 Opensource helps. Jul 02 00:50:35 It doesn't fix it all. Jul 02 00:50:41 Zaurus = low popularity got taken off the shelves within a short period of time Jul 02 00:51:01 zaurus was nice, i owned one. ;P Jul 02 00:51:19 linux_galore: it's not so much that. The problem is that there are lots of seperate widely seperated frequencies. Jul 02 00:51:34 I have a clam shell spitz and collie 5500 Jul 02 00:51:44 linux_galore: this pretty much means that you have to have a fairly complex tranciever. Jul 02 00:51:58 i just ordered a 770 to go with my openmoko, when the openmoko comes out. :) Jul 02 00:52:13 SpeedEvil: if you go to Malaysia motorola make gsm/cdma multi frequency mobiles Jul 02 00:52:31 juri_ which Zaurus did you have? Jul 02 00:53:19 darmou: 5500. had a ethernet CF card, and a cf wireless. it made a great network traffic sniffer. Jul 02 00:53:27 Here in australia there a a group called Unwired http://www.unwired.com.au, I thought you needed a special arial for wimax? Jul 02 00:53:30 SpeedEvil: software adaptive receiver IC's have been around for well over 10 years now Jul 02 00:54:02 linux_galore: and look at the power and RF input requirements. Jul 02 00:54:05 It's not that simple. Jul 02 00:54:13 'Software radio' is not magic. Jul 02 00:54:30 I'm not saying it can't be done. Jul 02 00:55:00 I'm saying that the first and second generation of phones with it in will be only a few frequencies. Jul 02 00:55:34 darmou: unwired use a very similar setup to wimax and the antena's are very small Jul 02 00:55:37 Rather than completely tunable as would be nice. Jul 02 00:56:00 hi Jul 02 00:56:00 darmou: OPEL will be doing WiMAX though Jul 02 00:56:42 I must admit the base station antena's for wimax are anything but small Jul 02 00:56:47 linux_galore: so unwired use a different standard? Jul 02 00:56:51 * SpeedEvil is tempted to do the NK770 thing. Jul 02 00:57:02 As they are moderately cheap now. Jul 02 00:57:28 darmou: yes, wimax wasnt a standard when unwired started so they used what was available Jul 02 00:57:35 speed: they have bluetooth, so it should be possible to have a NK770/openmoko solution to "constant wired". Jul 02 00:57:38 Is there any source where i can get the emu, which is not down on the net? Jul 02 00:57:51 juri_: and wifi. Jul 02 00:58:00 juri_: meaning it can bridge to wifi nets. Jul 02 00:58:20 thats what i meant. :) Jul 02 00:58:34 N770 second hand is pretty cheap Jul 02 00:58:39 USD$150 Jul 02 00:58:40 New is 70 quid Jul 02 00:59:00 $150 Jul 02 00:59:01 http://www.expansys.com/p.aspx?i=141019&partner=froogle Jul 02 00:59:20 N800 though is pretty nice Jul 02 00:59:29 If it turns up. Jul 02 01:00:32 73 quid is like USD$210 Jul 02 01:01:11 New though. Jul 02 01:01:17 With an actual guarantee. Jul 02 01:01:40 ouch 284 quid for a N800 Jul 02 01:01:49 Indeed. Jul 02 01:01:53 thats over USD$600 Jul 02 01:02:00 For that money, I'd get two neos :) Jul 02 01:02:17 Or four N770s! (-; Jul 02 01:02:17 bugger that get a NEO lol Jul 02 01:02:34 or wait fr the GTA02 Jul 02 01:02:37 for* Jul 02 01:02:47 Current annoyance is I can't find anyone to sell me a FM radio chip that I want. Jul 02 01:03:26 2*3mm, 6 or so external components makes a complete FM radio. Jul 02 01:05:42 Can anyone help me? I just want to set up a Neo1973 emu. So I need the modification for the qemu and some kind of image I hope. Jul 02 01:07:15 Tetraden: have you tried: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/OpenMoko_under_QEMU Jul 02 01:07:23 yes Jul 02 01:07:40 my first problem there is, that the download link is down Jul 02 01:07:58 http://mdk.linux.org.tw/~jserv/openmoko/openmoko-emulator-win32-bin-20070625.zip Jul 02 01:09:23 I get timeouts all the time. Jul 02 01:09:51 is there any pre-made vm image of openmoko out there? Jul 02 01:09:57 so if anyone knows a working mirror. pleasy tell me :) Jul 02 01:10:57 for vmware? or something that would run in linux, not windows Jul 02 01:10:59 or if anyone is willed to send it by jabber or sth. Jul 02 01:13:15 peepsalot: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Qemu Jul 02 01:14:27 the zip actually contains a premade vm image that would work on linux Jul 02 01:14:33 if the server wasn't down Jul 02 01:14:48 ah ok Jul 02 01:15:09 summatusmentis: the name says win32 Jul 02 01:15:15 Tetraden times out for me Jul 02 01:15:28 beside the (sic!) windows binaries Jul 02 01:15:28 balrog-kun, in that case, the wiki is misleading, since it sounds like it will only work in windows Jul 02 01:15:36 arrgh, auto tabbing sux Jul 02 01:15:48 peepsalot: yes, the qemu in this zip will only work for windows Jul 02 01:15:54 Tetraden: :-D Jul 02 01:16:00 peepsalot: but it contains a vm image, that's platform independent Jul 02 01:16:01 :) Jul 02 01:16:16 balrog-kun, ok, thanks Jul 02 01:16:32 will have to check it out if/when the server comes back up Jul 02 01:16:32 does anyone already have this zip and can send it to me? I need it :/ Jul 02 01:16:45 peepsalot: it's quite trivial making the image yourself Jul 02 01:16:55 i ran the mokomakefile once before, but it took forever Jul 02 01:17:05 and wasn't completely trivial Jul 02 01:17:12 lots of hiccups Jul 02 01:17:23 the instructions in this page take about 15 minutes to complete and have a working vm Jul 02 01:17:30 be cool if there was a ubuntu package Jul 02 01:17:32 balrog-kun: could you make the image from a linux build? Jul 02 01:17:47 maybe it has improved since last time i tried, was a few months ago Jul 02 01:18:05 gcb77: you mean make the flash image and pack it up? Jul 02 01:18:30 might look into making a ubuntu package so people can easily run it Jul 02 01:18:37 peepsalot: no, it's because the instructions in this page don't touch MokoMakefile Jul 02 01:18:40 which is what takes long Jul 02 01:19:47 balrog-kun: I was thinking of building the emulator-win32-bin image Jul 02 01:20:26 gcb77: i'm not sure what you mean Jul 02 01:21:32 balrog-kun: lol, nm. I was wondering if its easy to build the openmoko-emulator-win32-bin-##.zip from a MokoMakefile envrionment Jul 02 01:22:24 gcb77: oh, i think it's mostly automatic, except for win32 you have to apply a couple of patches made by jserv2 Jul 02 01:22:35 jserv2 will also know how long it takes Jul 02 01:23:13 i personally have nothing to do with the win32 image, will never support anything win32 and will never upload any binaries (and optimally don't want to ever have anything to do with anything win32) Jul 02 01:23:43 lol Jul 02 01:24:03 I just went through a few painfull days getting the MokoMakefile to build on openSUSE 10.2 Jul 02 01:24:24 win32 image almost sounds better Jul 02 01:24:56 i wouldn't know Jul 02 01:28:18 i will add a note to the qemu wiki page mentioning that MokoMakefile takes *long* so that people don't always try to use MokoMakefile if they only want to see the emulator Jul 02 01:28:40 as it stands now it sounds as if MokoMakefile was the recommended way of using the emulator Jul 02 01:48:34 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[OpenMoko_under_QEMU]] [[Press_Coverage]] Jul 02 02:39:23 hummm... i wonder if there's a way to get mokomakefile/oe to download the next source pkg while building the current one Jul 02 02:39:46 my opty 165 couldn't get to 1x cpu usage ;) Jul 02 02:40:07 (not measuring on my macbook - oops) Jul 02 02:41:57 balrog-kun, How to get it running: Using MokoMakefile: This is arguably the easiest way of building qemu-neo1973 ... Jul 02 02:42:12 yup Jul 02 02:43:00 so the instructions on this page say to use mokomakefile, are you saying the other instructions are easier>? Jul 02 02:43:56 peepsalot: frankly, i haven't used MokoMakefile, but i know a number of people reported success with MakeMokofile, and added that to the wiki Jul 02 02:44:10 peepsalot: i'm not saying easier, i'm only saying faster Jul 02 02:55:11 Dudes, http://fakesteve.blogspot.com/2007/06/freetards-are-trying-to-make-iphone.html is great. Jul 02 02:55:25 Surely most of you saw it on community; I'm reading the archives now. (-: Jul 02 02:56:45 balrog-kun, ok, i am trying the instructions here Jul 02 02:57:03 balrog-kun, do you know what it means "see --cc="? # GCC 3.x will be required, see --cc= Jul 02 02:57:12 i have gcc 4.1, so it's complaning Jul 02 02:58:53 Look at the '--cc= Jul 02 02:59:00 Look at the '--cc=' option Jul 02 02:59:10 option of what? how would i look at it? Jul 02 02:59:24 peepsalot: you need a gcc 3.x to build qemu Jul 02 02:59:29 argh Jul 02 02:59:44 can i have multiple gcc version alongside each other? Jul 02 02:59:51 yes **** ENDING LOGGING AT Mon Jul 02 02:59:56 2007