**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Fri Jul 06 02:59:57 2007 Jul 06 03:04:32 hozer: haven't heard anything about cdma version but who knows Jul 06 03:05:13 __brandon__: there was maybe for EDGE in GTA02, but in latest news there was no mention Jul 06 03:05:15 I am kind of in a hurry to send those videos around, so I am going to go ahead and d/l them from YT and convert them Jul 06 03:05:38 good night to all Jul 06 03:05:40 __brandon__: even if it was just software update, you can't update GSM part (its closed separate modem) Jul 06 03:05:58 everybody have a sweet dreams Jul 06 03:06:06 :) Jul 06 03:06:14 see you Jul 06 03:17:14 <__brandon__> so there is a potential update via software to allow edge over gsm? where was there mention of this? do you have a link? Jul 06 03:18:21 user can't update gsm firmware Jul 06 03:18:52 well, in tossug video EDGE was mentioned as *maybe* for GTA02, but latest announcement has no mention Jul 06 03:19:30 * aloril doesn't know if EDGE is hardware upgrade thing or not Jul 06 03:19:59 __brandon__: basically for now consider no EDGE, no 3G this year Jul 06 03:20:07 next year should be different thing Jul 06 03:20:37 <__brandon__> but i have already been waiting over a year to buy one of these bad boys :( Jul 06 03:21:41 there is wifi in GTA02 though Jul 06 03:21:45 <__brandon__> i was considering buying one of the developer phones on jul 9th (if they're not sold out) just to support the project (and play with it of course :) ) and buying one when they come out offically in oct. Jul 06 03:22:14 that is one plan: then you can also do Neo1973 <-> Neo1973 fun Jul 06 03:22:30 or sell GTA01B_b04 at eBay ;-) Jul 06 03:23:10 <__brandon__> hmmm... i've been privately been scheming for an excuse to make some of my clients purchase large numbers of them :) Jul 06 03:23:47 hehe Jul 06 03:24:14 'night Jul 06 03:24:25 <__brandon__> one of them already use windoze mobile devices to count inventory, if i could have it connect to their wireless network (GTA02) and have it do the same thing... but interfacing w/ a m$ environment can be a pain w/ linux sometimes Jul 06 03:49:03 hozer: from what Im seeing 3G GSm networks uses CDMA for the connection but GSM for the software stack Jul 06 03:50:37 __brandon__: samba Jul 06 03:52:25 tempted to just buy a NEO as a collectors item then update to a gta02 later Jul 06 03:54:06 FIC will have to be careful when pricing the GTA02 though because you also have the Motorola Ming selling for around $500 Jul 06 03:54:37 and that has a cam Jul 06 03:54:43 and runs Linux Jul 06 03:55:11 but just as a kernel? everything on top of it is closed right? Jul 06 03:55:22 hozer, linux_galore: 3G is WCDMA, a completely separare and incompatible protocol from CDMA/EVDO Jul 06 03:56:19 If you're comparing GTA02 against a closed Ming, then you're missing the whole point of OpenMoko (unless you're intending to port OpenMoko to the Ming hardware) Jul 06 03:56:27 rwhitby: telstra here in AU shut down the CDMA network and updated it as the new 3G network, I know the old CDMA phones are now all bricks Jul 06 03:57:15 linux_galore: I'm in AU too. Jul 06 03:57:17 rwhitby: yeah thats another issue, people may port the openmoko software to other Linux phones Jul 06 03:57:43 linux_galore: OpenMoko specifically want people to do that. Jul 06 03:58:12 rwhitby: yeah but it could white ant their hardware market Jul 06 03:58:15 OpenMoko is about a whole new paradigm in mobile communication, it's not about a single FIC GTA01/02 phone. Jul 06 03:58:55 when you open up a whole new market space, it's actually beneficial to have competitors who help you advertise the new market area and therefore grow the pie for everyone. Jul 06 03:59:05 (the same is not true in a mature market space) Jul 06 04:01:21 rwhitby: there is a FOSS project for running Linux on a treo apparently they got it booting Jul 06 04:01:47 im a bit confused because i thought i had read that the gta02 will have the faster processer - but now i can't find anything that says that? i must've been imagining it? Jul 06 04:01:49 yes, I'm following that closely (my current phone/PDA/internet platform is a Treo650). Jul 06 04:01:59 someone put openmoko on the treo..., afaik Jul 06 04:02:34 they have no phone functionality yet, and openmoko has a long way to go before it begins to rival the treo in usability (I'm here to help openmoko bridge that gap) Jul 06 04:03:08 (i.e. they have booted openmoko, but it cannot talk to the gsm part, so it's a PDA rather than a phone) Jul 06 04:03:13 be funny if Openmoko does turn into a software virus distro for other phones Jul 06 04:03:37 it will be ideal for the goals of OpenMoko if indeed that does happen Jul 06 04:04:20 remember that the money is made by sales to millions of Joe Random Users, not to the relatively small number of people who have the technical ability (or desire) to install openmoko on a different phone Jul 06 04:05:07 so the act of techo people showing joe random user a better, more open, phone OS will only increase the sales of FIC phones. Jul 06 04:05:20 how many Joe Random Users are gonna buy it? I mean... particularly if the selling point is a completely open phone... most users don't care about that Jul 06 04:05:43 and the ones that do, already buy unlocked phones Jul 06 04:05:43 user's don't care about the openness, that's only a means to an end Jul 06 04:05:48 users care about applications Jul 06 04:05:56 <__brandon__> linux_galore: I have done samba before, it's other aspects of native windows applications that i haven't dealt w/ and would just be a pain for me to deal with (and get support calls on), when it works most of the time with the software from the vendor. think proprietary 3rd party code doing hot syncs and stuffing code into a massive database Jul 06 04:06:34 we have to get past the initial step of an open phone to the next step of brand new application spaces that can *only* be done on open phone which cause joe random user to choose that platform cause they just gotta have that application Jul 06 04:07:17 so... GTA02 is the initial step, and the other devices are the killer apps? Jul 06 04:08:33 GTA02 is just a hardware platform Jul 06 04:08:54 devices are not important. it's the applications that those devices enable that will grow the market Jul 06 04:09:10 have a read of Sean's initial slide set from mid last year. Jul 06 04:09:19 I think i've seen that Jul 06 04:09:58 he doesn't talk about having the best hardware, he talks about a completely new mobile communications software platform Jul 06 04:10:48 <__brandon__> rwhitby: agreed. opening up the phone to allow developers to develop for the sake of creating killer apps instead of for the sake of lining the the carriers pockets is a much more worthy goal imho Jul 06 04:10:50 (of course you need good hardware to enable the best applications, but not hardware just for hardware's sake) Jul 06 04:11:07 __brandon__: absolutely Jul 06 04:11:23 FIC still has to make money for this to be feasible Jul 06 04:12:31 yep, and they do that initially by selling the phone to developers at a reasonable price Jul 06 04:12:46 (which is why people trying to push down the price is counter-productive to the project as a whole) Jul 06 04:12:52 right, then again when GTA02 comes out Jul 06 04:13:23 I guess.. it seems like, once openmoko hits the point of having the killer app, FIC is either out of luck, or something will need to be changed up Jul 06 04:14:41 even if FIC only get 70% of the open phone market and their competitors get the other 30%, that will still be a huge win compared to the low margins they currently get making hardware that is rebranded by Nokia. Jul 06 04:15:34 summatusmentis: i guess FIC will have then have the initial advantage of having the hardware that all works _now_ Jul 06 04:16:32 Agrajag-: and the reputation of being the company that started it all, and the brand recognition of the "OpenMoko" name Jul 06 04:17:17 and the goodwill with the development community so that they get the best apps earlier than people who ignore the development community and only take stable mature baselines. Jul 06 04:20:10 Agrajag-, rwhitby: that's true... hmm Jul 06 04:21:34 <__brandon__> I for one can't wait. 4 days and counting. I've considered hacking my a780 but don't want to be left w/ a brick. I'm seriously considering getting one just to play with and support FIC for being the first to do the right thing in the mobile market where sharks swim Jul 06 04:22:22 if i had more(read: any) disposable income, I'd purchase in 4 days Jul 06 04:22:31 but I'm gonna wait till GTA02 Jul 06 04:23:10 <__brandon__> i used to work for a company that developed software for mobile phones, and believe me, developing a piece of software that will run on more than a handful of phones is next to impossible Jul 06 04:23:20 summatusmentis: im with you on that one.. im not sure if it was a mistake at all to announce the better hardware model at the same time Jul 06 04:24:09 well, I'm not sure the dev model was 'announced' exactly, except to the community Jul 06 04:24:14 and lurkers like myself :-) Jul 06 04:24:58 <__brandon__> anyhow, that's my 2 cents, i'm no guru by any means but i enjoy my play time :) i'm off for Jul 06 04:25:09 i guess so. it seems like a fair bit more hardware to have to support though, im not sure how that's going to work since the dev models won't have that hardware Jul 06 04:25:30 The videos just finished converting/uploading Jul 06 04:25:32 http://people.ubuntu.com/~magicfab/video/openmoko/ Jul 06 04:26:35 <__brandon__> ok, maybe i'll stay for the videos :) Jul 06 04:26:56 Agrajag-: it's not support really, as most of the apps being used aren't related to the hardware at all Jul 06 04:27:39 MagicFab: what are these videos of? Jul 06 04:28:04 summatusmentis: i was thinking of the accelerometers mainly - they're not much use without software support. i suppose wifi bit won't need much more once the kernel driver is there Jul 06 04:28:49 Agrajag-: see http://openmoko.com Jul 06 04:29:00 (about CPU and other updates) Jul 06 04:29:04 Agrajag-, see http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2007-July/006340.html Jul 06 04:29:22 Agrajag-: I guess the accelerometers do need to be taken into account. from what I've heard, it won't be terribly difficult to code for them, so I'm assuming it'll be ready for the mass market release Jul 06 04:30:21 * summatusmentis goes to sleep Jul 06 04:31:41 aloril: yeah i think i just got confused with the messages about the HXD8 processor and teh announces Jul 06 04:41:05 anyone got the link for GTA02 hardware specs Im just checking that gizmodo.com has everything right Jul 06 04:41:45 openmoko.com Jul 06 04:42:05 yeah if you go to the openmoko home page there is nothing regarding the GTA02 Jul 06 04:42:33 I know its there but I dont want to spend 5 minutes digging Jul 06 04:43:15 man you're lazy.. just scroll down - where there's the bullet points - that's the specs of the gta01 and gta02 Jul 06 04:45:35 http://www.openmoko.com/ or http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 (later one more pruned) Jul 06 04:46:07 * aloril thinks gizmodo.com just copied it Jul 06 04:46:22 * aloril haven't checked though ;-) Jul 06 04:48:06 2 3D Accelerometers, is that two accelerometers or just 2D 3D ? Jul 06 04:49:37 two 3d accelerometers Jul 06 04:50:19 2x "3D accelerometers" Jul 06 05:10:09 put my comment on gizmodo Jul 06 05:10:29 http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/smartphones/openmokos-neo-1973-open+source-smartphone-ships-in-october-at-450-to-600-275414.php Jul 06 05:11:45 it looks that at least gizmodo would not review GTA01B_v04 as finished phone Jul 06 05:13:16 they should do a tungsten version of the GTA02 Jul 06 05:13:25 ie the colour Jul 06 05:16:55 aloril: being FOSS technically it will neve be a finished product heh. there will always be someone hacking on a new feature Jul 06 05:17:27 linux_galore: right, I wonder if they will get that too ;-) Jul 06 05:20:10 aloril: Im imagining a shark with a openmoko on its head with a big assed laser canon Jul 06 05:20:37 the Dr Evil Openmoko kit Jul 06 05:25:14 Hi, IS FIC developing a commerial mobile phone using openmoko? Jul 06 05:25:38 Richard: yep Jul 06 05:26:44 Which company? and where? Jul 06 05:26:59 Richard: FIC are making it Jul 06 05:28:42 But I heard a company of FIC group, called Xinzhong, that's making cell phone, was down. Jul 06 05:28:42 Richard: www.openmoko.org Jul 06 05:30:09 Richard: the first early adopters version will be on sale this July 9th but you would be wise to wait till October for the better features GTA02, more details openmoko.com Jul 06 05:30:21 featured* Jul 06 05:32:04 Is GTA02 for users or just for developers? Jul 06 05:32:21 users Jul 06 05:33:10 Great, finally there will be a commerial product using open linux solution. Jul 06 05:41:09 Richard: there are many Linux mobile phones out already, this one is just completely open Jul 06 05:42:48 how does the greenphone compare? Jul 06 05:43:54 Ycros: well the greenphone is a Trolltech unit and very expensive to develop on (QT Licensing up the wahzu) Jul 06 05:44:19 ah. Jul 06 05:44:31 unless you write your apps under GPL? Jul 06 05:44:36 Ycros: yep Jul 06 05:44:44 fair enough. Jul 06 05:45:01 Ycros: then you have all the linking headaches because its pure gpl not lgpl Jul 06 05:45:07 I'm surprised the nokia tablets aren't phones Jul 06 05:45:29 Ycros: they are when you put skype on them Jul 06 05:45:55 Richard: where did you hear "called Xinzhong, that's making cell phone, was down." ? Jul 06 05:46:21 part of software stack used in greenphone is closed too Jul 06 05:46:33 also its not X11 AFAIC Jul 06 05:47:30 linux_galore, yeah, but then you need wifi access Jul 06 05:48:16 yeah I looked at the greenphone and ignoring the bizaar price (buy three GTA01's for the price) I didnt like the very commercial aspect of it Jul 06 05:49:18 fair enough, I haven't really looked into it much Jul 06 05:50:04 so who's buying a gta01, and who's waiting for gta02? Jul 06 05:51:55 Ycros: probably both Jul 06 05:51:59 Im waiting because I need wifi Jul 06 05:52:02 linux_galore: you don't put Skype on a nokia internet tablet, cause Skype don't exist for them. You do put Gizmo (which is an open standard, using SIP protocols, compared to Skype which is a closed proprietary protocol that interoperates with nothing else) Jul 06 05:52:12 definitely GTA01B_v04 Jul 06 05:52:36 rwhitby: there is a skype beta rig for the Nokia N800 Jul 06 05:52:38 Skype is to Gizmo as Greenphone is to OpenMoko Jul 06 05:52:48 linux_galore: URL? Jul 06 05:53:18 rwhitby: Gizmo isnt open either Jul 06 05:53:18 (it must have come out in the last few days if there is - there is Skype under development and a video, but no download that I've seen) Jul 06 05:53:21 the problem is that everyone uses skype Jul 06 05:53:31 Gizmo is closed source for an open protocol. Jul 06 05:53:48 rwhitbythe Gizmo guys just use open standards ie VoIP Jul 06 05:53:57 linux_galore: that's exactly the point Jul 06 05:54:00 ie. most of my friends and family, and extended family Jul 06 05:54:15 Ycros: they could use open standards and Gizmo just as easily. Jul 06 05:54:24 (or any other free SIP client0 Jul 06 05:54:40 yeah, to be honest gizmo is better for a office setup that way it can work with your VoIP routers etc Jul 06 05:54:46 linux_galore: got that Skype beta download URL yet? or is it still vapourware? Jul 06 05:55:12 (as it has been since the release of the Nokia N800 many months ago) Jul 06 05:55:24 rwhitby: perhaps, but then how will they call their friends? Jul 06 05:55:31 rwhitby: they already have skype Jul 06 05:56:00 http://share.skype.com/sites/skypegear/2007/01/the_nokia_n800_skypeenabled_so.html Jul 06 05:56:02 Ycros: I'm not a zealot - you use what you choose to use. I'm just pointing out the difference between an open protocol and a closed protocol. Jul 06 05:56:40 I can run a SIP client on the OpenMoko and talk to someone running Gizmo. You can't do the same with Skype, and you *never* will be able to do the same unless Skype decides to support the OpenMoko platform. Jul 06 05:56:44 I know some N800 dev's have the beta copies of skypes software on test the final release is for July 2007 Jul 06 05:57:27 linux_galore: right - still vapourware :-) That article is from January. Jul 06 05:58:07 Ycros: so you are at the mercy of Skype, just like you're at the mercy of your existing mobile phone supplier. Jul 06 05:58:49 Skype is not compatible with the philosophy of OpenMoko. A SIP client (like Gizmo as an example, but you can just as easily use an open source one) is compatible with the OpenMoko philosophy. Jul 06 05:59:03 rwhitby: look at the picture and weep http://jkontherun.blogs.com/.shared/image.html?/photos/uncategorized/2007/06/27/skype_on_nokia_n800.jpg Jul 06 05:59:03 But I stand by your right to choose whichever you want to choose :-) Jul 06 05:59:34 linux_galore: not arguing that it's in beta. But *I* can't download it now. Jul 06 05:59:56 So Gizmo has beaten it by months, with an open protocol to boot. Jul 06 06:00:18 rwhitby: vapourware means it doesnt exist even for testing, beta just means its not ready for general use by "normal user" Jul 06 06:00:39 (Of course Skype has the marketing power, so there will be more Skype installations than Gizmo installations after it's released. Jul 06 06:00:50 linux_galore: yes, it's not vapourware. Jul 06 06:00:59 rwhitby: Do you have a hint on what's going wrong with the qemu flash timeout 300s for me with the latest makefile: http://pastebin.ca/604637 Jul 06 06:01:01 rwhitby: Im not saying one is better than the other, to be honest i dont like either they are not truly FOSS Jul 06 06:01:28 I've tried updates and rebuilds and all, but not sure where it's going wrong. Do I really have to "make clobber"? Jul 06 06:01:42 linux_galore: agreed - the thing about Gizmo is that it uses an open standard, so you *can* replace it with an FOSS alternative. The same it not true for Skype. Jul 06 06:02:14 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Neo1973]] Jul 06 06:02:14 CM: sorry, no idea about that one. Jul 06 06:02:28 I doubt a make clobber would fix it. Jul 06 06:02:43 rwhitby: skype has a big problem though, many companies and government departments (universities) block skype but not VoIP Jul 06 06:02:47 Ok, I'll wait and see. It's happened before for some people, butnever for me Jul 06 06:03:15 linux_galore: the EULA for Skype says that you explicit permit Skype to use *your* computer to route *other* people's calls. That is not acceptable to many people. Jul 06 06:03:35 And it really sucks bandwidth and cpu Jul 06 06:03:57 (but then most people don't even read that EULA, so Skype has free reign on their computer and there is nothing they can do about it) Jul 06 06:04:12 rwhitby: skype although a major player is pretty small compared to VoIP Jul 06 06:04:39 Made Niklas Zennstr�m pretty rich too Jul 06 06:04:54 linux_galore: so let's keep it that way by promoting VoIP solutions for the N800 instead of Skype :-) Jul 06 06:05:04 rwhitby: i sell bith skype and VoIP enabled telephones and I have sold thousands of VoIP units but not one skype unit Jul 06 06:05:09 both* Jul 06 06:06:13 rwhitby: i find companies or government view skype as some kids toy and not a serious business solution Jul 06 06:08:30 Phone comments: http://jwz.livejournal.com/777621.html Jul 06 06:08:50 I totally agree on nr 3. Jul 06 06:09:03 Seems to be that way on almost all phones Jul 06 06:09:59 ah Jamie Zawinksi. Jul 06 06:10:13 *nod* Jul 06 06:10:42 I worked with him on some XEmacs stuff Jul 06 06:10:45 good guy Jul 06 06:10:52 Heh, cool Jul 06 06:11:21 I just know of him from the mail thread thing, netscape and such Jul 06 06:11:32 he's a Treo owner too, like me :-) Jul 06 06:11:54 I wonder a bit what typing on the neo will be like too Jul 06 06:12:13 I mean, how to make it as fast and accurate as we can Jul 06 06:12:30 I need a physical keyboard like the Treo650. Jul 06 06:12:45 I can't type anywhere near as fast on the virtual keyboard on the Nokia N800. Jul 06 06:12:46 if the GTA03 has a fold out keyboard that would be cool Jul 06 06:12:59 Nr 4 on his list would be possible with OpenMoko :) Jul 06 06:12:59 It's like a 10:1 difference in speed and the same in accuracy too. Jul 06 06:13:10 Ouch Jul 06 06:13:28 Hmm.. Maybe a small bluetooth kb is the solution then Jul 06 06:13:41 I can't carry two devices. Jul 06 06:13:42 rwhitby: on my N95 I use a bt keyboard as a work around, works pretty well as I also frind the treo keyboard too small Jul 06 06:14:39 anyway, that's just my preference. I won't force it on anyone else. I hope FIC brings out phones with and without keyboards. Jul 06 06:14:45 I have a three axis foldup keyboard, its very small and came with a pouch Jul 06 06:16:05 I would love something like my N95 running Linux Jul 06 06:16:22 but I now have putty running so Im not too fussed Jul 06 06:17:24 I think it'better to have a number keypad. people can type messages without staring on it. Jul 06 06:18:25 a bluetooth cord keyboard with 5 buttons would be ideal, type super fast with one hand Jul 06 06:20:47 linux_galore: Bluetooth cord? Jul 06 06:21:08 I like feature phone keypad :) Jul 06 06:22:30 nobody reverse engineered skype protocol? answer: there seems to be at least one reverse engineered program: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skype_Protocol Jul 06 06:24:20 aloril: I assume it's the same as with the MSN protocol, that they can change it as they please, and start using hidden extensions and such Jul 06 06:24:33 counter Jul 06 06:24:33 (last update 2007-07-02T06:19) http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter 60% for P1 in 3 days 05:35:22 (3.233±1.0 days) (1683;246) Jul 06 06:25:37 rwhitby: what is your speed with Treo650? Jul 06 06:25:59 fast enough to use it to type long emails. Jul 06 06:26:09 CM: yeah, but still would make client implementing SIP and skype protocol superset Jul 06 06:26:16 and to converse on IRC without it being painful. Jul 06 06:26:20 CM: there was a kayboard made in the 80's called a cord keyboard because it was just 5 button in a row connected by a cord Jul 06 06:26:26 keyboard* Jul 06 06:26:31 (IRC typing on Nokia N800 is painful) Jul 06 06:26:39 linux_galore: Aha, that explains it :) Jul 06 06:27:06 * CM likes sip Jul 06 06:27:30 And to sip.. Jul 06 06:27:40 CM: Im just saying a simple solution would be a bluetooth unit ie 5 buttons in a row no wires, that can be held in one hand for sms etc Jul 06 06:28:11 linux_galore: Tried to type on such a thing? How fast is that? Jul 06 06:28:28 I think there's several such gadgets though.. Jul 06 06:28:45 I have trouble enough typing on a real keyboard (I use about 3 fingers on each hand) - I doubt I could learn a chording keyboard. Jul 06 06:29:02 rwhitby: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shorthand claims 60-200 wpm Jul 06 06:29:16 CM: I actually owned one when I worked for a company called Wordplex in the 80's, I got up to 60WPM Jul 06 06:29:45 linux_galore: Wow, nice. Hmm.. Jul 06 06:29:53 CM: takes allot of practice though Jul 06 06:29:53 thus I believe its possible to implement fast input on touch screen too; also shorthand does not use timing information which is possible on touch screen Jul 06 06:30:16 aloril: I don't claim to type quickly compared to someone else using some other technology. I only claim that a physical Treo keyboard is 10 times faster for me personally compared to a virtual on-screen keyboard on a Nokia N800. Jul 06 06:30:43 rwhitby: lol, you only use one hand, its a bit like a weird version of morse code Jul 06 06:31:39 linux_galore: looked at http://www.handykey.com/site/twiddler2.html ? Jul 06 06:31:46 I saw a video on yourtube a few weeks back were they chalanged two teenagers to beat a couple of guys using more code, the more code guys wiped the floor with the teenagers Jul 06 06:31:55 morse* Jul 06 06:32:21 * rwhitby ignores what other people can do - he only cares about what he can do on the hardware he has :-) Jul 06 06:32:23 aloril: yeah saw that Jul 06 06:33:09 rwhitby: yes, but on screen keyboard is suboptimal (except for small initial learning curve) Jul 06 06:33:19 single button more code bluetooth keyboard hack for the NEO, now I have an itch lol Jul 06 06:33:25 morse* Jul 06 06:33:34 rwhitby: I suspect that with suitable program and enough learning touch screen could rival your Treo650 speed Jul 06 06:34:15 aloril: trouble is that life is too short for me to do that learning Jul 06 06:34:28 hmm use a BT headset circuit with a simple tone insert muawahaha Jul 06 06:34:50 rwhitby: that might be very well the case also Neo1973 doesn't yet have suitable program IMHO Jul 06 06:35:28 some people can type really bloody quick with a normal mobile phone keyboard Jul 06 06:35:30 ideal one would be where you can easily start and soon achieve better speed than traditional on screen keyboard and then gradually increase speed without special stufy Jul 06 06:35:42 s:stufy:study: Jul 06 06:36:39 aloril: I can also do quite a bit of typing on the Treo without looking. Difficult to do that on a virtual keyboard. Jul 06 06:36:53 muscle memory needs physical cues Jul 06 06:37:15 hmm how about this for an idea for single hand typing -> http://xaphoon.com/dataegg/Mykel_Image.jpg Jul 06 06:37:18 again, other's mileage may vary :-) Jul 06 06:37:50 rwhitby: I see 2 solutions for that: 1) place independent gestures (except screen edge which you can feel) 2) vibrator feedback Jul 06 06:38:25 I like this concept http://xaphoon.com/dataegg/ Jul 06 06:38:29 aloril: for me personally, I don't see either of those working. Jul 06 06:39:03 single handed data entry devices Jul 06 06:39:04 why? circle is circle no matter where on the screen Jul 06 06:39:56 aloril: cause I then need to learn the gestures, instead of just typing on a qwerty keyboard that I've spent 20 years learning. Jul 06 06:40:16 (probably 28 actually) Jul 06 06:40:30 true, you would initially need to look at screen, no matter how easy system it would be to start with Jul 06 06:41:16 * aloril has noticed that there is probably some kind of generic typing ability, could adapt reasonably fast to alphabetical order too Jul 06 06:42:10 but more power to those who can use complex schemes to type faster on a virtual keyboard. it just ain't me :-) Jul 06 06:43:30 well.. virtual *keyboard* is maybe wrong idea, anyway I suspect there huge amount of research to do Jul 06 06:44:03 (though I guess there is something to learn from shorthand guys, albeit that has reportedly quite amount of learning curve) Jul 06 06:45:27 aloril: did you look at the NASA data egg link I just posted for a single handed data unput device, the way they do it is interesting but simple Jul 06 06:45:55 the keybaord is built into the side of the device Jul 06 06:46:02 keyboard* Jul 06 06:46:50 they use a method of typing called chord typing Jul 06 06:47:08 bit like a guitars notes Jul 06 06:47:35 linux_galore: interesting, sounds similar to twiddler Jul 06 06:48:36 linux_galore: case mod for Neo1973? ;-) Jul 06 06:48:42 yep Jul 06 06:49:23 ad 5 buttons to the side of the neo Jul 06 06:49:37 and few to top Jul 06 06:49:48 (for thumb) Jul 06 06:50:01 yeah, tabbing can be the thumb Jul 06 06:51:01 it fixes all the limitations of the other input methods Jul 06 06:53:34 how much would the hardware difference between the the GTA01 and the GTA02 effect an end user? Jul 06 06:53:34 ericjames: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.) Jul 06 06:54:30 ericjames: it would depend on the users needs Jul 06 06:54:32 faster CPU + GPU -> more glitz and still faster Jul 06 06:54:38 wifi -> many want it Jul 06 06:55:07 accelerometer -> allow various stuff, no doubt new ideas not even expressed yet Jul 06 06:55:28 (simple idea: rotate screen as device is rotated) Jul 06 06:55:36 yeah the GPU and the accelerometer's open up a whole new world of hacks Jul 06 06:55:56 aloril: use the accelerometers as a key input method Jul 06 06:56:05 heh Jul 06 06:56:27 now that would take skill Jul 06 06:57:02 anyway Im out. Jul 06 06:58:27 * aloril wonders about using Neo1973 with vibrator feedback only for output and touchscreen + accelerometers for input Jul 06 06:58:29 It's like that hack to use the harddisk accelerometer on the macbooks to shift virtual keyboard when you whack it on the side Jul 06 06:58:41 (maybe with sound for output too) Jul 06 06:58:52 s/keyboard/desktops/ Jul 06 06:58:53 CM meant: It's like that hack to use the harddisk accelerometer on the macbooks to shift virtual desktops when you whack it on the side Jul 06 06:59:19 apt_: Change your name Jul 06 06:59:23 actually it might not be hard to write using accelerometer: just draw letter in the air ;-) Jul 06 06:59:30 hehe Jul 06 07:00:47 add wand to Neo1973, then make various spell casting gestures and Neo1973 intones spells and sound effects ;-) Jul 06 07:01:53 I bet the macbook lightsaber program is soon on the neo Jul 06 07:03:55 what is so cool about Neo1973 compared to Greenphone is that Neo1973 *is* meant to be used as phone/etc.. too not only as development platform Jul 06 07:08:28 with multitouch screen could implement dataegg in software Jul 06 07:08:42 Dataegg? Jul 06 07:09:01 If im getting the Neo1973 on the 7th july, can i upgrade the parts, f.ex. wifi, when GTA02 comes? Jul 06 07:09:14 Btw, does the GTA01Bv04 (or whatever it is) have multitouch? Jul 06 07:09:38 Srry, July 9th Jul 06 07:09:55 http://xaphoon.com/dataegg/ Jul 06 07:10:18 daxxar: no multitouch (but some of it might be possible to fake) Jul 06 07:11:07 jonkristian: not easy to replace parts, probably easiest just to replace whole PCB (which *might* be possible) Jul 06 07:11:29 Wow i just heard about this project and im so psyced about it. I did notice one thing tho, the website says that developers should contact the core team if they want to contribute. Is an SDK going to be released along with a toolchain ? Jul 06 07:11:29 Cyph3r-g[_]y: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.) Jul 06 07:12:14 already released months ago (as you can see from FAQ) Jul 06 07:13:30 Cyph3r-g[_]y: Just follow the instructions in the wiki and you'll have everything working as soon as you want. :) Jul 06 07:15:25 CM: I feel like a moron for asking that now seeing as its ALL in the FAQ Jul 06 07:15:26 sorry Jul 06 07:16:16 Cyph3r-g[_]y: Don't worry, and ask at any time if there's something you can't find in the wiki Jul 06 07:17:52 Cyph3r-g[_]y: I assume you looked at openmoko.com (it doesn't have link into openmoko.org so no surprise you didn't see it) Jul 06 07:18:30 CM: Thanks! I can't express how excited i am that i found this, ive been looking non-stop for a phone like this. Jul 06 07:18:54 aloril: Yes thats excatly what it was, i saw the freenode chanell listing and thought maybe id check here! Jul 06 07:19:19 Cyph3r-g[_]y: Good timing then, since the developer version is released next week Jul 06 07:20:50 CM: Yes it is and i plan on grabing it as soon as i can, do you know if possibly there may be backorder issues (so i can be shure to make the purchase as the site goes live) Jul 06 07:22:08 Don't think so and I guess they'll underestimate how many they will sell Jul 06 07:22:36 I'm hoping I'll be able to order one as soon as the store comes online Jul 06 07:24:04 CM: Hrmm the 9th is now on my todo list. Jul 06 07:27:25 linux_galore, CM: Funnily enough, the new firmware for N800 which includes Skype has *just* been released in the last hour or so. Jul 06 07:28:16 rwhitby: Heh, talk about the devil.. ;) Jul 06 07:33:48 CM: Im unshure of if you would know this or not but im shure it wont be in the wiki. The Neo doesnt ship with devices like say a camera, if somone were to develop such a device do you think that OpenMoko would distribute the device ? Jul 06 07:35:35 Cyph3r-g[_]y: I doubt they would.. But I never know. There's some OpenMoko-people in the channel too, they might know what policy they have with these things Jul 06 07:35:50 better mail to mailing list or contact OpenMoko for that question Jul 06 07:36:04 Definitely Jul 06 07:36:40 Cyph3r-g[_]y: http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/ Jul 06 07:36:55 Community has a lot of traffic.. Jul 06 07:37:34 morning Jul 06 07:37:39 Awsome thankgs guys Jul 06 07:37:45 Hello :) Jul 06 07:37:52 Have a good night and ill see you all in the morning! Jul 06 07:38:02 Bye Jul 06 08:03:01 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Talk:Advertising]] Jul 06 08:03:25 SpeedEvil: assuming we can find out what coded is used in each call, then: take arbitrary cipher data and wrap it and then feed it to decoder and feed resulting voice to encoder and then compare data Jul 06 08:03:55 combined with knowledge of exact algorithm used in decoding and encoding might allow some nifty solution Jul 06 08:04:49 still leaves problem of dropped packets, but maybe that is easier after this much is known and anticipated by adding some additional data to make it easier to decode Jul 06 08:05:26 yeah, still just vague hand waving, but maybe there it could spark usable idea somewhere Jul 06 08:07:35 I wonder... I saw that OM is theoretically supported under several Canadian carriers, but can they still restrict its use? Or could I just plug in a SIM card? Jul 06 08:07:47 openmoko: 03stefan * r2361 10/trunk/oe/conf/distro/include/preferred-openmoko-versions.inc: * Pin down openmoko-applet-mainmenu to have it buildable during bigger changes. Jul 06 08:09:09 later should be possible Jul 06 08:09:40 Cool :) Jul 06 08:10:07 Just wondering what sort of response carriers will have to such a phone... Jul 06 08:14:39 good day all Jul 06 08:14:51 unless they have blacklists or whitelists: what can they do? Jul 06 08:18:34 I've always thought they have elaborate systems for locking phones and making sneaky contracts with people etc. so I assume the worst :) Jul 06 08:20:13 well, if you buy Neo1973 from elsewhere, how are they going to lock it? ;-) Jul 06 08:20:34 (unless there is backdoor in GSM module, but still can have only effect on it) Jul 06 08:21:27 Well yeah, I mean that they seem to be pretty uptight about that thing so maybe they'll just refuse to provide service if you don't use an "approved" phone or something.. *shrug* Yeah, basically a whitelist I guess. Jul 06 08:21:34 sort of thing* Jul 06 08:21:57 Guess I'll have to look into it locally~ Jul 06 08:25:49 I may be wrong, but I got the impression that the mobile operators are able to tell what phone your using, as a lot of the details of the phone are published to the network. Jul 06 08:26:04 How else are they able to "disable" stolen phones? Jul 06 08:26:04 wibbit: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.) Jul 06 08:26:38 If they are able to do it to disable phones reported as stolen I see no reason why they could not expand it to band entire makes/models. Jul 06 08:26:46 wibbit: yes, that is what I refer with white/black list Jul 06 08:27:00 okie :) Jul 06 08:28:00 there is one phone company that black lists all phones that are not 3G phones and there might be some other company that whitelists phones, but other than that I haven't heard Jul 06 08:28:08 (and stolen phones) Jul 06 08:28:32 The point is though, that it is technically possible, just not really "rolled out" to it full extent yet. Jul 06 08:28:48 Ultimately the mobile operators own their networks and can do what ever they like with them :( Jul 06 08:31:44 I'm assuming the Neo1973, would include pim functionality, I was wondering what was being planned regarding integration with the linux desktop? Jul 06 08:33:28 wibbit: I'm sure we can garantee compatibility. Jul 06 08:34:04 wibbit: I'm not worried, but then I live in Finland Jul 06 08:34:39 and GSM part is closed part, so there is nothing unusual from mobile operators viewpoint Jul 06 08:35:10 openmoko: 03stefan * r2362 10/trunk/oe/packages/openmoko-base/openmoko-session/session: Jul 06 08:35:10 openmoko: * Make sure libgtkstylus.so gtk module is loaded to have tap'n'hold Jul 06 08:35:10 openmoko: functionality. Jul 06 08:37:08 ewanm89_laptop: I was wondering if any one was working with people from the libopensync project, to provide a module for the OpenMoko/ Neo 1973. Jul 06 08:37:32 aloril; I take it that the finish operators would not restrict access? Jul 06 08:38:01 bundling is forbidden by law here for non 3G phones (which Neo1973 is) Jul 06 08:38:06 aloril, The GSM module may be closed, but it also removes their ability to control what is bundled (or disabled!) on the phones. for example SIP functionality. Jul 06 08:38:10 wibbit: openmoko just uses EDS so the EDS plugin for opensync should work Jul 06 08:38:11 aloril; ahh, gotcha Jul 06 08:38:14 and for 3G phones they must always offer unbundled version too Jul 06 08:38:26 Interesting... Jul 06 08:38:29 * wibbit wanders off to find out what EDS is Jul 06 08:38:44 wibbit: Evolution Data Server Jul 06 08:39:05 wibbit: umm.. why would GSM module have effect on SIP? just use WiFi + your favorite SIP software == no control by carriers Jul 06 08:39:23 stefan_schmidt: AHHHH, most excellent, that should garentee a reasonable amount of interaction between the OpenMoko and Evolution ;) Jul 06 08:39:44 (wifi for GTA02, not GTA01B_v04) Jul 06 08:40:24 aloril: I took your statement regarding the GSM module being closed, to suggest that the mobile operators would have no issue with the phones. However, my point is, that they are also (in the UK at least) concerned about the software that comes ont he phones, and their capabilities. Jul 06 08:41:18 aloril: For example, Vodafone in the UK, disabled ALL of the VoIP functionality in the Nokia Series 60 phones, preventing third party companies from using the inbuilt functionality (like TruPhone). Jul 06 08:41:31 wibbit: yeah, but GSM is standard: just put your SIM Jul 06 08:41:54 wibbit: well, I assume those phones are bought *from* Vodafone? Jul 06 08:41:57 aloril: Unless they start blocking phones. But I don't want to be a doom and gloom person, so I'm going to drop it Jul 06 08:44:12 wibbit, you can still buy unlocked nokia series 60 phones and use them on the vodafone netwrok, they don;t care... Jul 06 08:44:22 in the uk Jul 06 08:44:26 wibbit: there is light ahead for that kind of stuff, kind of operator supported VOIP (their own type): http://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/05/technology/circuits/05pogue.html?ei=5090&en=39e3cc8226651f90&ex=1341288000&partner=rssuserland&emc=rss&pagewanted=print Jul 06 08:44:28 ScaredyCat: yet... Jul 06 08:45:14 if they start caring people will move to a different provider... Jul 06 08:45:40 if I buy an unlocked phone, I want to use it where ever, and in whatever country ... Jul 06 08:46:02 iff i buy one in the uk and go to .nl i want to be able to put a local provider sim in.... Jul 06 08:47:07 ScaredyCat: I'm fairly certain, that you'll find the majority of people don't care :\ And the ones that do will be in the extreme minority. we shall see though. As I said I don't want to be doom and gloom, Even though I jost bot an E70, I'm looking forward to the Neo 1973 hitting the shelves, and being able to buy one. Jul 06 08:48:11 I'm pretty sure Nokia would make vodafone's life miserable if they stopped unlocked phones being used :) Jul 06 08:49:32 ScaredyCat: I'd like it if they could, and that is a small saving grace. Jul 06 08:50:03 I honestly couldn't say where I thought the balance of power sat, with the operators, or people like Nokia Jul 06 08:51:42 I just got a new CDMA phone, but I might buy a Neo1973 just as a cool dev platform. :) Jul 06 08:52:02 well, tbh I don't think vodafone would see much of a benefit in stopping people... Jul 06 08:52:32