**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Tue Jul 10 02:59:57 2007
Jul 10 03:00:18 <ExxonValdeez> its not that bad, esp when you have a the calc there to check you answers on the test
Jul 10 03:00:18 <orzo> hey
Jul 10 03:00:29 <orzo> others who placed orders, do they charge the card fairly quickly?
Jul 10 03:00:45 <orzo> maybe i can verify it went through from my bank, since the email doesnt work
Jul 10 03:00:52 <sublime> i ordered mine yesterday morning, they still havent charged my card
Jul 10 03:01:05 <orzo> but you got a confirmation?
Jul 10 03:01:14 <orzo> its still the 9th for me
Jul 10 03:01:17 <gerikes> Same here, ordered last night and still no word. Got a confirmation of my order, but no acceptance of the order.
Jul 10 03:01:28 <hads> They'll just be busy.
Jul 10 03:01:28 <sublime> i got an email saying theyve recieved my order, yet they havent processed or even ccepted it yet
Jul 10 03:01:54 <gerikes> Which works for me, I haven't played around enough with building anything on it yet :P
Jul 10 03:02:09 <SpeedEvil> I've rewritten http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assisted_GPS can anyone spot any stupidos?
Jul 10 03:02:48 <aloril> duh, it was useless to provide https links (back to normal)
Jul 10 03:03:51 <hads> https appears to be borked at the moment.
Jul 10 03:04:45 <aloril> ditto for http:
Jul 10 03:05:05 <aloril> and ... everything?
Jul 10 03:05:06 <sublime> class is out, later guys
Jul 10 03:05:22 <hads> Bummer. I was just trying to place the group order we organised. Oh well, I'll put it through a bit later on.
Jul 10 03:05:47 <aloril> well, this delays it 'outselling' ;-)
Jul 10 03:06:22 <galexande> well, i think i convinced it to refetch uboot, but ... am i the only one of the opinion that the svn server is down?+
Jul 10 03:07:01 <gerikes> I'm experiencing problems too, but can't tell if it's just 'cuz I'm doing the wrong commands because the wiki is down :P
Jul 10 03:07:21 <galexande> i think teh svn is hit-or-miss, probably nearing some connection limit
Jul 10 03:08:08 <aloril> if you didn't get "AutoReply: OpenMoko direct order" mail soon after ordering, then your order was probably lost (based on talks on IRC)
Jul 10 03:08:09 <ExxonValdeez> ah, the main site is down or slow so i figure its prbly slow all around
Jul 10 03:08:34 <gerikes> Yeah, I just kept running it until it eventually would work. I'm sure they appreciate that right now :P
Jul 10 03:08:40 <orzo> aloril, well, i'm not getting any email to the address i indicated
Jul 10 03:08:52 <galexande> well, if i use http instead of https it works.  https says: svn: PROPFIND of '/trunk/src/target/u-boot/patches': SSL negotiation failed: SSL disabled due to library version mismatch (https://svn.openmoko.org)
Jul 10 03:09:08 <aloril> orzo: there are reports that greylisting and initial rejection == no order
Jul 10 03:09:39 <orzo> i mean, mail i send myself at that address doesnt work, so i just dont know
Jul 10 03:09:44 <SpeedEvil> orzo: they are going through them manually.
Jul 10 03:09:50 <aloril> greylisting and having mailed already to list or some other way host known already and thus mail gets trough in first try == OK
Jul 10 03:10:10 <aloril> SpeedEvil: are they stored somewhere?
Jul 10 03:10:31 <SpeedEvil> orzo: reportedly at least. Add a note saying "Don't process this order if you have recieved an earlier one' should work.
Jul 10 03:10:58 <aloril> SpeedEvil: I just remember that roh  didn't find anything about order placed by xkr47  (but this is day old information)
Jul 10 03:11:36 <aloril> ie.. at least its not in rt.internal.openmoko.org, but maybe they are in some other logs?
Jul 10 03:12:26 <aloril> or my information is simply 1 day old
Jul 10 03:13:35 <aloril> anyway, if no kind of mail after ordering -> then there could be problems is probably safe thing to say
Jul 10 03:21:29 <wizdumb> hey everyone
Jul 10 03:21:37 <ExxonValdeez> wow, where are to many people coming and going
Jul 10 03:21:39 <wizdumb> congrats on the device launch
Jul 10 03:21:47 <ExxonValdeez> wizdumb: hello
Jul 10 03:21:58 <wizdumb> one thing though, its really damn tough to find the link to get to where you actually buy the phone
Jul 10 03:22:04 <anrp> topic?
Jul 10 03:22:06 <wizdumb> and also, it looks like openmoko.com is down
Jul 10 03:22:14 <anrp> ...
Jul 10 03:22:34 <wizdumb> anrp, I mean from the site, openmoko.org  it would be nice ot have a link on the homepage
Jul 10 03:22:38 <anrp> i will admit that noone ever does read the topic..
Jul 10 03:22:40 <anrp> o
Jul 10 03:23:14 <wizdumb> people will hear about this from the web, not irc most likely.  and you really have to dig to find where to buy the thing
Jul 10 03:23:23 <anrp> true
Jul 10 03:23:31 <wizdumb> I think the only reference I foudn was some wiki page with the lin kbeing a "1" reference
Jul 10 03:24:17 <wizdumb> yeah i cant get to the store link
Jul 10 03:24:23 <wizdumb> unable to connect
Jul 10 03:24:31 <wizdumb> could be /.ed as well perhaps
Jul 10 03:24:46 <ExxonValdeez> i read the topic
Jul 10 03:24:53 <ExxonValdeez> didnt change much from yesterday
Jul 10 03:25:10 <anrp> heh ya
Jul 10 03:25:45 <wizdumb> additionally, anyone who has linked to your site before is still pointing to openmoko.org, which again has no link to the store.. so that is sort of a way you are going to lose/confuse people
Jul 10 03:25:55 <wizdumb> jsut trying to help, I think this project is awesome :)
Jul 10 03:28:13 <aloril> wizdumb: well... overloaded :-(
Jul 10 03:28:57 <aloril> wizdumb: and at Germany people are sleeping I guess, maybe in few hours? (unless traffic is just too much)
Jul 10 03:29:01 <wizdumb> (a nice button for the store would be great on teh landing page in the lower right corner of that intro paragraph box next to the phone image :)
Jul 10 03:29:26 <wizdumb> is it being hosted with ze germans?
Jul 10 03:29:27 <aloril> wizdumb: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.)
Jul 10 03:29:31 <aloril> wizdumb: in what page?
Jul 10 03:29:52 <wizdumb> on http://www.openmoko.org/
Jul 10 03:30:02 <wizdumb> the page everyone is going to go to first, since its been around the longest
Jul 10 03:30:09 <ExxonValdeez> not in germany
Jul 10 03:30:10 <cibomahto> the wiki has been down for a while :-/
Jul 10 03:30:12 <ExxonValdeez> prbly taiwan
Jul 10 03:30:16 <aloril> oooh its back up!
Jul 10 03:30:33 <aloril> ah, not wiki :-(
Jul 10 03:30:35 <hads> Not https
Jul 10 03:30:45 <ajmitch> hads: no joy yet?
Jul 10 03:30:57 <hads> ajmitch: Na, not yet.
Jul 10 03:31:41 <aloril> wizdumb: yeah, there probably should be link (though it would be useless now)
Jul 10 03:32:21 <wizdumb> a link and maybe a sorry we are slashdotted page :)
Jul 10 03:32:35 <wizdumb> seriously though, go to .org and try to find a link to the store
Jul 10 03:32:41 <wizdumb> you have to really dig
Jul 10 03:33:14 <aloril> but then first link in www.openmoko.org is to wiki.openmoko.org where you could fix it yourself (if its not already in frontpage) (later though)
Jul 10 03:33:35 <aloril> wizdumb: how did you find here?
Jul 10 03:33:46 <wizdumb> aloril, find the irc page?
Jul 10 03:33:49 <wizdumb> er shit
Jul 10 03:33:50 <notserpe> I'd love to see some bandwidth graphs for wiki and .org
Jul 10 03:33:50 <wizdumb> channel
Jul 10 03:34:07 <wizdumb> I guessed.. I thin KI saw it on the wiki page before though
Jul 10 03:34:26 <aloril> where did you find irc page?
Jul 10 03:34:38 <aloril> ah, OK, that explains ;-)
Jul 10 03:34:51 <aloril> maybe its in google cache too
Jul 10 03:35:01 <wizdumb> I'd offer to help with the site, but my contract with work restricts me :|
Jul 10 03:35:22 <notserpe> first hit for google with keywords openmoko irc :-)
Jul 10 03:35:28 <aloril> well, I think problem is that people able to do something about stuff are sleeping :-(
Jul 10 03:35:40 <wizdumb> doh
Jul 10 03:35:59 <wizdumb> it would have been nice if you had google anayltics on the site so you could watch your traffic
Jul 10 03:36:03 * aloril can only fix wiki pages ;-)
Jul 10 03:42:47 <aloril> latest number is about 500 (50%) sold before slashdotted?
Jul 10 03:44:44 <wizdumb> I'd lke to order one, but I cant get to the page hah
Jul 10 03:44:59 <aloril> yeah, I bet same holds for many other
Jul 10 03:45:55 <aloril> about %30 was sold first 10h
Jul 10 03:46:43 <aloril> then maybe 20% more until it was slashdotted too badly
Jul 10 03:47:03 * aloril hasn't yet catched up on irc logs so probably outdated
Jul 10 03:48:35 <hads> Sounds about right, maybe a little under.
Jul 10 03:49:11 * aloril suspects that if there were no problems, it would have sold first 1000 units already
Jul 10 03:49:12 <SpeedEvil> I wouldn't be entirely surprised if they are all sold nowish.
Jul 10 03:49:23 <SpeedEvil> Or in a few hours.
Jul 10 03:49:36 <aloril> well.. order page is not working, so...
Jul 10 03:49:58 <SpeedEvil> I do hope someone pulls the trigger on the next batch tomorrow.
Jul 10 03:49:58 <aloril> if they didn't sell it out before it did go out of order, then there are some
Jul 10 03:50:15 <cibomahto> yikes!  will there be another round before the next hardware version?
Jul 10 03:50:19 <aloril> yeah, they won't put order page down, they will just make more
Jul 10 03:50:25 <cibomahto> good, good
Jul 10 03:50:33 <aloril> cibomahto: parts are ready for next manufacturing round
Jul 10 03:50:53 <gerikes> wiki seems to be slowly getting off the floor.
Jul 10 03:51:02 <aloril> cibomahto: I think manufacturing is fast, at least several hundred / day
Jul 10 03:51:14 <aloril> getting it trough customs is slow thing maybe
Jul 10 03:52:06 <aloril> oooh, order page loads now!
Jul 10 03:52:19 <happycube> woot
Jul 10 03:53:31 <aloril> irc logs are available in 2 places (didn't check now): http://logs.nslu2-linux.org/livelogs/openmoko/ http://ibot.rikers.org/%23openmoko/
Jul 10 03:53:56 * summatusmentis uses ~/logs
Jul 10 03:54:14 <aloril> wizdumb: wiki main page has direct link to shop
Jul 10 03:54:44 <aloril> summatusmentis: hehe, ditto similarly using local logs
Jul 10 03:55:14 <summatusmentis> :-D
Jul 10 03:55:18 * aloril guesses somebody has awakened now
Jul 10 03:55:45 * aloril also suspects somebody might have had short sleep
Jul 10 03:55:57 <happycube> heh
Jul 10 03:56:04 <xkr47> morning!
Jul 10 03:56:19 <happycube> i think production speed depends on how many units are kitted
Jul 10 03:56:28 <happycube> there's a 6 week lead time if there aren't enough components ready, iirc
Jul 10 03:56:57 <aloril> yeah, I have no idea for how many units they have screens in stock
Jul 10 03:56:59 <hads> Bah, I added *.openmoko.(com|org) to my whitelist but the hostname is just openmoko.com so my confirmation mail got caught in greylist :(
Jul 10 03:57:33 <xkr47> :/
Jul 10 03:57:35 <aloril> hads: try again (and note that you tried earlier and also select color)
Jul 10 03:57:56 <xkr47> heh that's how the 1000 phones will sell fast.. everyone orders double :D
Jul 10 03:57:59 <cibomahto> thanks aloril
Jul 10 03:58:00 <Agrajag-> eheh.. greylisting is freakin stupid
Jul 10 03:58:22 <hads> aloril: Yeah, might do that. I select color already but I'll put a note about duplicate order.
Jul 10 03:58:29 <aloril> you should get autoreply about instantly
Jul 10 03:59:15 <hads> Agrajag-: It helps a lot with spam and shouldn't be a problem with compliant MTAs
Jul 10 03:59:46 <hads> I'm guessing there's something weird with RT if the tickets aren't getting created just because the confirmation maildidn't go through.
Jul 10 04:00:09 <aloril> hads: yeah, but .. I have suspicion that it tries to mail only once (based on experience by xkr47  and others)
Jul 10 04:00:30 <hads> aloril: Yup, I saw the same conversations
Jul 10 04:01:49 <crunchywelch> i submitted an order earlier today and never got an email, just resubmitted with a note and got an email instantly, so things are probably working again
Jul 10 04:01:57 <cdbot2> * * OM Bug 633 has been created by thkruege(AT)googlemail.com
Jul 10 04:01:58 <cdbot2> * * javascript-disabled webpage version looks very broken
Jul 10 04:01:59 <cdbot2> * * http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=633
Jul 10 04:03:10 <aloril> this is guess (based in discussion): if (try_mailing()==goes_trough) {create_rt_ticket();} else {}
Jul 10 04:08:38 <crunchywelch> ah oops, just got a second confirmation with different order ID
Jul 10 04:09:29 <crunchywelch> and only 30 numbers between them, guessing i got my order in right before things went down
Jul 10 04:09:38 <aloril> crunchywelch: ouch (well if you don't cancel maybe you get double fun ;-)
Jul 10 04:09:47 <aloril> crunchywelch: yeah, sounds like that
Jul 10 04:09:51 <crunchywelch> fine with me :)
Jul 10 04:10:04 <hads> I got connects from two different servers, both look like exim so maybe it's just being slow at retries.
Jul 10 04:10:20 <aloril> maybe they fixed it now
Jul 10 04:10:44 <hads> Yup, a big bunch of maybes :)
Jul 10 04:11:11 <aloril> so...  if(mail_in_queue()) {create_rt_ticket();} // this now?
Jul 10 04:12:09 <aloril> crunchywelch: what is you number?
Jul 10 04:12:34 <crunchywelch> aloril: 2565 and 2589
Jul 10 04:12:39 <crunchywelch> er, 2598
Jul 10 04:12:48 <Aria> Goodness.
Jul 10 04:13:10 <aloril> 779 orders or so?
Jul 10 04:13:16 <Aria> Yeah.
Jul 10 04:13:33 <crunchywelch> they have 1k units ready to go out?
Jul 10 04:13:57 <aloril> first ticket number is 1820 (though I think every mail increases it by one, so anybody mailing that they forgot to specify color and specifying it increases number?)
Jul 10 04:14:08 <aloril> yes, 1000 units
Jul 10 04:14:28 <aloril> but then other hand there are orders with more than 1 unit ..
Jul 10 04:14:48 <Agrajag-> when replying to an RT ticket it doesn't increase because it's related to the same ticket (as long as the subject and stuff remains the same)
Jul 10 04:14:52 <hads> aloril: The ticket id will only increase if the mail doesn't have an RT id already
Jul 10 04:15:16 <aloril> hads: ah, OK, in that case I guess its quite good indication of number of orders
Jul 10 04:15:29 <hads> But according to roh it's a global RT id, not just for the orders, so can be effected by spam to other addresses, etc.
Jul 10 04:15:51 <aloril> ok
Jul 10 04:16:14 <aloril> its close to being sold out quite likely then (if not already)
Jul 10 04:16:30 * aloril agrees, they should push "manufacture more" -button
Jul 10 04:18:00 <summatusmentis> are there really 1000+ people planning on dev'ing?
Jul 10 04:18:26 <crunchywelch> wouldnt surprise me
Jul 10 04:18:30 <SpeedEvil> I suspect a lot may get pushed to the back of desks.
Jul 10 04:18:44 <SpeedEvil> 'I have this cool phone, I'm gonna develop for it tomorrow'
Jul 10 04:18:54 <summatusmentis> SpeedEvil: :-) always the optimist
Jul 10 04:19:03 * gcb77_ wonders if they'll show up on ebay
Jul 10 04:19:21 * crunchywelch looks at his dusty breadboards and ponders SpeedEvil's prediction
Jul 10 04:19:49 <aloril> summatusmentis: hard to say, but yeah many probably order just for coolness factor
Jul 10 04:20:12 <aloril> summatusmentis: but then, this is really only option for really open phone: there is no competition at all
Jul 10 04:20:19 <happycube> indeed
Jul 10 04:20:21 <summatusmentis> greenphone?
Jul 10 04:20:24 <SpeedEvil> Trollphone sort-of
Jul 10 04:20:33 <happycube> twice as expensive and at least partially locked down
Jul 10 04:20:39 <aloril> yeah, but that is "not phone" ;-)
Jul 10 04:20:48 <summatusmentis> lol
Jul 10 04:20:56 <aloril> or I have heard it says so on bootup
Jul 10 04:21:22 <summatusmentis> hrm... so if there are 1000+ people doing dev work, GTA02 could actually happen in october
Jul 10 04:21:45 <Rince> summatusmentis: don't think that these 1000+ people who buy the gta01 will do development work
Jul 10 04:21:54 <cesarb> summatusmentis: not if it goes in several random directions. herding cats, etc
Jul 10 04:21:59 <aloril> summatusmentis: yeah, but there are probably quite differences in how much each dev does
Jul 10 04:22:01 <Rince> I know already one person who thinks he can use the gta01 in daily work
Jul 10 04:22:11 <summatusmentis> Rince: slap him
Jul 10 04:22:23 <Rince> even when I told him that's a _developer_ toy,l not a phone
Jul 10 04:22:37 <summatusmentis> :-/
Jul 10 04:22:45 * aloril wonders what % is actually developers buying
Jul 10 04:22:47 <daMaestro> i'll be using it in my daily work
Jul 10 04:23:03 <daMaestro> aloril, 1/totalnumbersold ....
Jul 10 04:23:05 <Rince> daMaestro: your daily work is programming openmoko? ;)
Jul 10 04:23:05 * summatusmentis sleeps, goodnight all
Jul 10 04:23:21 <daMaestro> Rince, if something b0rks.. i'm going to check the code
Jul 10 04:23:28 <daMaestro> Rince, if i can patch it, i will
Jul 10 04:23:56 <cesarb> I intend to use it as my main phone. If to get the features I want I have to code them, so be it. At least I *can* code them.
Jul 10 04:23:59 <daMaestro> aka, i'm going to do what a good developer does: eats their own dogfood (aka... use the device for everything; and when something doesn't work.. fix it)
Jul 10 04:24:20 * aloril intents to code even *in* it ;-)
Jul 10 04:24:22 <Rince> well - since I don't know C I won't be able to do so ;)
Jul 10 04:24:29 * gcb77_ dreams of programming while staring at "NOTE: package uboot-gta01-1.2.0+svnnow: failed"
Jul 10 04:24:42 <Rince> *g*
Jul 10 04:24:42 * ajmitch imagines that a few basic things will get hacked in quickly, like SMS
Jul 10 04:24:44 <cesarb> (in fact, that's why I made sure to fix mokomakefile so it compiles without having to do the silly /bin/sh -> bash dance)
Jul 10 04:24:58 <Psi_> aloril intents to code even *in* it ;-)  <-- HAHA
Jul 10 04:25:22 <ajmitch> cesarb: good, reverting to bash shouldn't be needed
Jul 10 04:25:31 <aloril> Psi_: ;-) well, it is fairly powerful computer, I did code in past in much weaker computers
Jul 10 04:25:42 <cesarb> Psi_: why not? when you are bored on the bus, you can code... isn't it a good thing?
Jul 10 04:25:58 <flingpoo> I hope the battery life is good enough for development.
Jul 10 04:26:04 <Psi_> i just had a mental pic of you typing code using the stylus
Jul 10 04:26:07 <anrp> keyboard?
Jul 10 04:26:10 <daMaestro> lol
Jul 10 04:26:12 <anrp> tapping is hard enough...
Jul 10 04:26:17 <daMaestro> stylus based bug fixing... nice
Jul 10 04:26:20 <Psi_> yeah, a BT kbd would make it much better :)
Jul 10 04:26:22 <anrp> and what do you do when X crashes? D:
Jul 10 04:26:36 <aloril> difference between Greenphone and Neo1973 is that Neo1973 is intended to be used as daily phone too
Jul 10 04:26:45 <anrp> and it's not green!
Jul 10 04:26:47 <cesarb> Psi_: why not invent some sort of touchpad-friendly code representation? isn't the whole fun of openmoko that the possibilities are endless?
Jul 10 04:26:48 <anrp> that's worth something
Jul 10 04:26:52 <daMaestro> i didn't want to spend any money on the greephone
Jul 10 04:26:56 <daMaestro> hmm greenphone
Jul 10 04:27:00 <overseer> a motion-sickness aptitude test
Jul 10 04:27:01 <daMaestro> i wanted a touchscreen
Jul 10 04:27:06 <cesarb> anrp: I'd get a neo even if it was OLPC-green
Jul 10 04:27:09 <anrp> the d-link clone is more worthy of buying
Jul 10 04:27:13 <anrp> black D:
Jul 10 04:27:17 <cesarb> anrp: it's worth even that level of embarrassment (sp?)
Jul 10 04:27:18 <daMaestro> hey now.. olpc green is sexy ;-)
Jul 10 04:27:21 <anrp> megabucks though
Jul 10 04:27:25 <blindcoder> moin
Jul 10 04:27:36 <anrp> iphone level D:
Jul 10 04:27:40 <aloril> so I would say Neo1973 is actually first freed phone (even if you include partial freeing, also if manufacturer doesn't support: those phones don't count either)
Jul 10 04:28:03 <anrp> oh, and about the t-mobile wifi thing, apparantly that's also a public ETSI standard as well
Jul 10 04:28:08 <anrp> so if that gets implemented it should work
Jul 10 04:28:16 <anrp> although the standard was long, 100+ pages...
Jul 10 04:28:32 <cesarb> anrp: is it the UMA thing I saw on wikipedia once?
Jul 10 04:28:43 <anrp> yeah
Jul 10 04:28:44 <anrp> that's it
Jul 10 04:28:59 <cesarb> anrp: cool, didn't think I'd see it implemented this decade
Jul 10 04:29:06 <anrp> :?
Jul 10 04:29:13 <anrp> samsong implemented it very recently for t-mobile
Jul 10 04:29:19 <anrp> *sung
Jul 10 04:29:42 <anrp> probably to snag some of the cell phone news from apple; i don't blame em
Jul 10 04:30:08 <cesarb> anrp: I didn't believe any carrier would take the initiative that soon...
Jul 10 04:30:13 <anrp> heh
Jul 10 04:30:16 <overseer> a self-signed-cert for the secure ordering website?
Jul 10 04:30:27 <anrp> well ive liked tmobile for a while D: they seem to be a bit more on top of tech
Jul 10 04:30:31 <anrp> imho
Jul 10 04:30:58 <anrp> and gsm was a must for me, since i do travel a bit
Jul 10 04:31:13 <daMaestro> overseer, it's intended to scare away users that have no idea what a self-signed cert is
Jul 10 04:31:14 <anrp> ...too bad about japan
Jul 10 04:31:14 <daMaestro> ;-)
Jul 10 04:31:19 <daMaestro> overseer, just kidding, though
Jul 10 04:31:29 <anrp> what, don't you trust openmoko? D:
Jul 10 04:31:33 <cesarb> Around here 3 of the 4 carriers are GSM, or at least that was the case... the only CDMA carrier now is switching to GSM too
Jul 10 04:31:35 <overseer> i kinda believed it
Jul 10 04:31:43 <anrp> here = ?
Jul 10 04:31:50 <cesarb> Rio
Jul 10 04:31:56 <cesarb> Rio de Janeiro
Jul 10 04:32:05 <anrp> well gsm is a standard
Jul 10 04:32:43 <daMaestro> you can have higher density with cdma... i think that is why most of the ripoff us carriers use it
Jul 10 04:32:50 <daMaestro> gsm is tdma based
Jul 10 04:32:51 <anrp> they're cheap, surprise
Jul 10 04:33:10 <cesarb> The problem with a self-signed cert is that it's vulnerable to MITM. Even a simple cacert one isn't.
Jul 10 04:33:20 <anrp> true
Jul 10 04:33:42 <daMaestro> yes, i already made the flame a cacert should have been used
Jul 10 04:33:58 <daMaestro> it's what? $20 for a year cert from the little guys?
Jul 10 04:34:14 <notserpe> overseer: yep
Jul 10 04:34:34 <anrp> i thought there was still a longstanding bug about distributing cacert's cert with the default gecko though?
Jul 10 04:34:44 <daMaestro> oh.. it's not there
Jul 10 04:34:49 <daMaestro> you have to still import it
Jul 10 04:34:53 <anrp> oh :/
Jul 10 04:35:01 <daMaestro> but it would give you a way to verify the cert
Jul 10 04:35:11 <anrp> but... extra work!
Jul 10 04:35:14 <daMaestro> so you could eliminate MITM attacks
Jul 10 04:35:16 * anrp lazy
Jul 10 04:35:23 <cesarb> daMaestro: IIRC ubuntu comes with it by default
Jul 10 04:35:33 <daMaestro> i don't believe it
Jul 10 04:35:36 * daMaestro looks
Jul 10 04:35:56 <overseer> i wish i saved the description differences between the two kits.
Jul 10 04:36:14 <cesarb> Hm, no, on my firefox it's been imported, together with ICP-brasil
Jul 10 04:36:30 <overseer> that's called the browser-in-the-middle attack
Jul 10 04:36:32 <alanleung> who cares about CDMA ?
Jul 10 04:37:22 <daMaestro> cedric, it *is* included in the root ca package, however
Jul 10 04:37:31 <daMaestro> cedric, this is not the case with, for example, fedora
Jul 10 04:37:36 <cesarb> mashi: people who alreay have a CDMA carrier as their carrier
Jul 10 04:38:06 <cesarb> mashi: unless they are with Vivo, which is the carrier I mentioned who is changing from CDMA to GSM ;-)
Jul 10 04:38:09 <mashi> cesarb : I never use CDMA myself. used TDMA once
Jul 10 04:38:17 <anrp> once?
Jul 10 04:38:18 <anrp> ...
Jul 10 04:38:20 <anrp> what do you use now?
Jul 10 04:38:20 <daMaestro> umm.. with gsm.. you use tdma
Jul 10 04:38:21 <anrp> nothing?
Jul 10 04:38:23 <daMaestro> lol
Jul 10 04:38:31 <anrp> hot air, i guess
Jul 10 04:38:36 <gcb77_> overseer: do you have the announce e-mail with the specs?
Jul 10 04:38:37 <mashi> anrp : well few year ago
Jul 10 04:38:44 * cesarb has used TDMA, CDMA *and* GSM
Jul 10 04:38:48 <anrp> gsm = tdma
Jul 10 04:38:53 <daMaestro> +1
Jul 10 04:38:54 * |R is trying to convince his kernel hacker friend to get one haha ;)
Jul 10 04:39:01 <mashi> i been using GSM for years
Jul 10 04:39:07 <daMaestro> then you use tdma
Jul 10 04:39:21 <mashi> anrp : tdma is close to GSM
Jul 10 04:39:28 <anrp> gsm uses tdma in the radio layer
Jul 10 04:39:36 <anrp> tdma is just a multiplexing sceme
Jul 10 04:39:37 <daMaestro> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_division_multiple_access
Jul 10 04:39:38 <anrp> liek cdma
Jul 10 04:39:38 <overseer> gcb77_: only saw it when it became the website opening page a few days ago. never signed onto the mailing list.
Jul 10 04:39:48 <daMaestro> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CDMA
Jul 10 04:39:50 <anrp> single channel per station is the 0g/1g standard
Jul 10 04:40:13 <daMaestro> i hurt my brain and read every single link (that i didn't already know) from those two pages
Jul 10 04:40:29 <anrp> COFDM!
Jul 10 04:40:31 <anrp> 16-QAM
Jul 10 04:40:33 <anrp> QPSK!
Jul 10 04:40:35 * anrp scares daMaestro off
Jul 10 04:40:49 <anrp> GFSK!
Jul 10 04:41:09 <overseer> what's standard channel bandwidth 96kbit? 9.6kbit?
Jul 10 04:41:13 <anrp> 64kbit
Jul 10 04:41:33 <daMaestro> yes, 64kbit is standard voice
Jul 10 04:41:37 <daMaestro> same with POTS lines
Jul 10 04:41:49 <anrp> usable on pots is 56kbit
Jul 10 04:41:54 <anrp> 8kbit for signalling
Jul 10 04:42:01 <gcb77_> overseer: http://pastebin.osuosl.org/1689 (Neo1973 kits info from announce e-mail)
Jul 10 04:42:47 <overseer> gcb77_: thanks
Jul 10 04:42:54 <linux_galore> hmm iPhone nano http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19682602/
Jul 10 04:43:27 <anrp> lol @ breaking news
Jul 10 04:43:32 <anrp> China executes ex-head of food and drug agency
Jul 10 04:43:43 <anrp> i bet they poisoned him
Jul 10 04:43:50 <anrp> ..
Jul 10 04:43:52 * anrp hides
Jul 10 04:44:50 <blindcoder> what is the estimated delivery time to germany?
Jul 10 04:44:59 <anrp> what shipping did you order?
Jul 10 04:45:01 <blindcoder> starting from $topic_date I'm away for a week
Jul 10 04:45:05 <mashi> iphone nano
Jul 10 04:45:08 <blindcoder> anrp: I _will_ order worldwide express
Jul 10 04:45:18 <anrp> what, you haven't done it yet?
Jul 10 04:45:21 * anrp cracks whip
Jul 10 04:45:28 <blindcoder> nope
Jul 10 04:45:36 <linux_galore> anrp: been allot of stuff on www.technocrat.net about the USA having serious problems with food products from China being contaminated, there was something on the Chinese saying it was because of official corruption 
Jul 10 04:45:43 <blindcoder> because I don't want it to be at my door while I'm gone and the have it sent back
Jul 10 04:45:47 <anrp> :/
Jul 10 04:45:49 <aloril> overseer: I think they have intention to fix "self-signed-cert"
Jul 10 04:45:51 <cibomahto> ive been trying to order for a while, but it stops after the first step
Jul 10 04:45:55 <anrp> it's probably not going to sell out
Jul 10 04:46:01 <anrp> so if you waited it's probably ok
Jul 10 04:46:39 <blindcoder> okay
Jul 10 04:46:52 <blindcoder> I was just hoping to get it to time with my returning home :)
Jul 10 04:47:15 <aloril> cibomahto: USA? use 2 letter uppercase
Jul 10 04:48:07 <anrp> express looks like 2 business day shipping
Jul 10 04:48:11 <anrp> internationally
Jul 10 04:48:14 <mil_> is zlib and openssl allready in the build?
Jul 10 04:48:26 <anrp> may be less if they get it into the system on friday before shutdown
Jul 10 04:48:40 <anrp> i.e. next monday
Jul 10 04:48:51 <anrp> er.. sorry. 16th is a monday
Jul 10 04:48:53 <anrp> that would be wed then
Jul 10 04:49:06 <blindcoder> hmm
Jul 10 04:49:12 <anrp> if they ship early you might get it monday
Jul 10 04:49:15 <cibomahto> aloril: Thanks!  that works
Jul 10 04:49:19 <anrp> but .. *cough* *wheeze* early?
Jul 10 04:49:26 * blindcoder ponders having it delivered to a friend
Jul 10 04:49:38 <blindcoder> or to workplace
Jul 10 04:49:39 <linux_galore> anrp: dare say this is the government sending a message to the USA, ok we killed him for you are you now happy heh
Jul 10 04:50:04 <anrp> ;/
Jul 10 04:50:27 * aloril wonders how long it will actually take to ship 1000 units (how many people will be there doing actual shipping?)
Jul 10 04:54:51 <blindcoder> speaking of work, guess I should head there now
Jul 10 04:54:51 <blindcoder> bbl
Jul 10 04:58:47 <cibomahto> so, has anyone looked into simple apps like a calculator or a unit converter?
Jul 10 04:59:14 <gerikes> I'm looking to try to get openmoko to compile. That's my goal before passing out tonight :P
Jul 10 05:02:36 <linux_galore> aloril: we ship over 400 items a day with only three people
Jul 10 05:02:53 <aloril> linux_galore: ok
Jul 10 05:03:07 <daMaestro> gerikes, what distro?
Jul 10 05:03:30 <linux_galore> aloril: oops,  the company I work for ships over 400 items a day with only three people
Jul 10 05:03:58 <aloril> cibomahto: somebody made at least calculator
Jul 10 05:04:33 * daMaestro ponders working on blog site.. or packaging openembed...
Jul 10 05:04:35 <daMaestro> hrmmmm
Jul 10 05:04:48 <gerikes> daMaestro: debian. I'm clearing the tmp files right now and am gonna' start again, I think I might have messed up some of the file access rights.
Jul 10 05:04:51 <linux_galore> Im surprised they are shipping via Taiwan not China
Jul 10 05:04:58 <daMaestro> gerikes, meh.. sok
Jul 10 05:05:06 <daMaestro> gerikes, i've got it packaged for fedora, is why i asked
Jul 10 05:05:08 <cibomahto> aloril: ok, thanks
Jul 10 05:05:12 <anrp> they're shipping via california..
Jul 10 05:05:17 <anrp> from taiwan
Jul 10 05:05:22 <daMaestro> anrp, yeah.. that is awesome
Jul 10 05:05:30 <anrp> for the usians, ya
Jul 10 05:05:34 <daMaestro> anrp, so when they get state side i should get a tracking number?
Jul 10 05:05:38 <anrp> for everyone else..
Jul 10 05:05:41 <aloril> anrp: from China via California actually
Jul 10 05:05:52 <aloril> they are manufactured in China
Jul 10 05:05:59 <anrp> alright
Jul 10 05:06:06 <anrp> still, though, they're all going through th eus
Jul 10 05:06:08 <linux_galore> yeah, I thought they were made in China (Taiwan is more expensive now)
Jul 10 05:06:20 * anrp moves that e
Jul 10 05:06:35 <aloril> China -> Taiwan -> USA would not make much sense I think ;-)
Jul 10 05:06:43 <daMaestro> so, when did the neo get it's fcc approval?
Jul 10 05:06:52 <linux_galore> why the USA ?, the USA isnt well known for GSM 
Jul 10 05:06:55 <anrp> china -> us -> eurpoe doesn't make much sense either
Jul 10 05:07:05 <anrp> *europe
Jul 10 05:07:12 <anrp> folks, i think it's time for bed for me
Jul 10 05:07:15 <aloril> (script) openmoko-community: Sean Moss-Pultz <sean at openmoko.com> Re: Openmoko site off-line?
Jul 10 05:08:14 <linux_galore> anyway I have to go take some pictures of a telephone for the engineers
Jul 10 05:08:36 <overseer> any bets that the US will settle on GSM after playing games with selling spectrum instead of setting interop standards?
Jul 10 05:08:42 <mil_> aloril: do you think ruby can performe well on gta01? would be nice to write plugin with ruby while still using the openmoko native trough ruby c extentions..
Jul 10 05:08:48 <aloril> yeah, kind of 'happy' problem being overloaded ;-) : http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2007-July/006690.html
Jul 10 05:08:59 * xkr47 got a second confirmation mail.. !!!
Jul 10 05:09:06 <anrp> two?
Jul 10 05:09:32 <aloril> mil_: I don't know
Jul 10 05:09:32 <linux_galore> overseer: 3G here in Australia uses CDMA for the RF but the GSM stack for the network
Jul 10 05:09:35 <xkr47> my first order that I made 29 hours ago came only now !!
Jul 10 05:09:39 <daMaestro> roh, ping
Jul 10 05:09:47 <xkr47> and it has a ticket #2602
Jul 10 05:09:53 <aloril> xkr47: from your first order? oh... so it was in queue, but there was some problem ...
Jul 10 05:10:13 <anrp> 2602?
Jul 10 05:10:15 <anrp> ... oi
Jul 10 05:10:29 <aloril> 783 ... hmmm in that case there could be many double orders ..
Jul 10 05:10:37 <xkr47> it seems as they had a big queue somewhere that got flushed
Jul 10 05:10:52 <xkr47> or well, I'm just guessing
Jul 10 05:10:58 <gcb77_> Still no confirmation here, and I was 183x :(
Jul 10 05:10:59 <linux_galore> xkr47: make an unboxing video and put it on youtube
Jul 10 05:11:03 <aloril> xkr47: yeah, but then your 'second' order that got trough first is now earlier ;-)
Jul 10 05:11:21 <xkr47> yeah...
Jul 10 05:11:44 <xkr47> seems as the mailing lists are alive again too
Jul 10 05:11:45 <linux_galore> no one has done a neo unxoing video yet that I can see
Jul 10 05:11:46 * aloril guesses they will be mailing everybody that looks like double order
Jul 10 05:11:54 <linux_galore> unboxing*
Jul 10 05:11:55 <xkr47> linux_galore, :)
Jul 10 05:12:31 <xkr47> linux_galore, prolly I won't be getting the phone first of all people :)
Jul 10 05:12:38 <gerikes> I'd be happy with a boxing video from FIC to savor my appetite. :P
Jul 10 05:13:03 <linux_galore> the unboxing video can become very addictive 
Jul 10 05:13:08 <Rakshasa> mornin'
Jul 10 05:13:12 <linux_galore> sort of like geek porn
Jul 10 05:13:27 <happycube> and then there's video of the 'lunchbox' too
Jul 10 05:14:00 <writeonlymemory> i have been trying all day to order a phone but the order page doesn't work
Jul 10 05:14:01 <xkr47> lol.. "Geek porn shop"
Jul 10 05:14:03 <gerikes> I think the unboxing video should just be a person taking it out, and then going off and playing with it, forgetting about actual fact they're making a video.
Jul 10 05:14:07 <writeonlymemory> is everyone having this problem?
Jul 10 05:14:08 <aloril> writeonlymemory: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ http://tinyurl.com/2dalyb (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.)
Jul 10 05:14:10 <Rakshasa> Of course the phone had to be released now. I've already used all my monies buying a new laptop. =/
Jul 10 05:14:11 <xkr47> "Adu^H^H^HGeek Videos"
Jul 10 05:14:23 <xkr47> gerikes, :)
Jul 10 05:14:43 <xkr47> Rakshasa, maybe you wait for 02 then..
Jul 10 05:14:44 <aloril> writeonlymemory: if you are from USA, use 2 letter uppercase
Jul 10 05:14:51 <notserpe> writeonlymemory: common problem was needing 2 digit code.
Jul 10 05:14:53 <writeonlymemory> aloril: canada
Jul 10 05:14:54 <Rakshasa> xkr47: Most likely.
Jul 10 05:14:57 <anrp> even if you're not, make it uppercase anyway
Jul 10 05:15:05 <linux_galore> I need wifi so Im stuck till the 02 is released
Jul 10 05:15:10 <anrp> canadia seemed to need it too
Jul 10 05:15:12 <notserpe> notserpe: I'm montreal and had the problem. Needed QC and not Quebec in both fields.
Jul 10 05:15:13 * anrp coughs
Jul 10 05:15:21 <notserpe> er s/notserpe/writeonlymemory/
Jul 10 05:15:29 <writeonlymemory> notserpe: ok trying
Jul 10 05:16:01 <linux_galore> Im thinking of case hacking thr GTA02 and adding a digicam
Jul 10 05:16:14 <linux_galore> ie add a usb digicam
Jul 10 05:16:15 <writeonlymemory> oh ffs
Jul 10 05:16:20 <writeonlymemory> :) that's silly
Jul 10 05:16:23 <gerikes> lol
Jul 10 05:16:25 <writeonlymemory> i just kept getting back a blank page
Jul 10 05:16:25 <linux_galore> nope
Jul 10 05:16:53 <writeonlymemory> will "standard" shipping get it to me in canada or do i need worldwide do you think?
Jul 10 05:18:06 <notserpe> I see fedex as a possible shipping option. Ground UPS (if that is the 15.00 option, i dunno) will end up with hefty UPS customs brokerage fees at your door. Somewhere around an extra 50.00
Jul 10 05:18:48 <aloril> so it was: while(!mailing_succeeded()) {}; create_rt_ticket();
Jul 10 05:18:56 <writeonlymemory> hmm... so i have "standard", "worldwide_expedited", "saver" and "worldwide_expeditied_plus"
Jul 10 05:18:57 <notserpe> FedEx air is what I'm hoping for shipping to Canada.
Jul 10 05:19:04 <anrp> its ups
Jul 10 05:19:04 <writeonlymemory> perhaps worldwide_expedited is the correct choice
Jul 10 05:19:05 <anrp> all the way
Jul 10 05:20:28 <writeonlymemory> anrp: so for canada should i pick the "world wide expedited" option to be safe?
Jul 10 05:20:40 <anrp> it'll definately work, it's not that cheap tho
Jul 10 05:20:57 <anrp> i can't say for a fact if it shows valid-for-canada options
Jul 10 05:21:01 <notserpe> wiki shipping notes correctly state Fedex air is best for canada. I choose Express from the store since I want the least grief. only time will tell...
Jul 10 05:21:32 <writeonlymemory> notserpe: it's not clear to me which one is fedex air from the list though -- none of them say fedex only
Jul 10 05:21:42 <writeonlymemory> s/only$//
Jul 10 05:21:54 <notserpe> I don't think there is a fedex type option on the direct...com site.
Jul 10 05:22:07 <|R> notserpe : know anyone else in mtl calling one?
Jul 10 05:22:11 <|R> (mtl here too ;)
Jul 10 05:22:22 <writeonlymemory> ok well i wll just go with the worldwide expedited -- that should get it done
Jul 10 05:22:28 <aloril> (script) openmoko-community: Sean Moss-Pultz <sean at openmoko.com> Re: Openmoko site off-line?
Jul 10 05:22:52 <notserpe> |R: nope. not at the moment.
Jul 10 05:23:43 <aloril> above: http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2007-July/006708.html
Jul 10 05:23:48 <aloril> (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[P1_Owners]] [[Wish_List]]
Jul 10 05:23:58 <|R> Now we need to convince Ile Sans Fil to make a mesh for these phones too hook up to ;)
Jul 10 05:24:05 <|R> s/too/to/
Jul 10 05:24:05 <apt> |R meant: Now we need to convince Ile Sans Fil to make a mesh for these phones to hook up to ;)
Jul 10 05:24:10 <aloril> "It's just really slow. We're trying to increase our capacity but please give us some time. Our system admin / gsmd architect is passed out from exhaustion. He just landed in Taiwan. ;-)"
Jul 10 05:24:29 * aloril guesses he is talking about laforge
Jul 10 05:24:42 <CM> Sounds like it
Jul 10 05:24:56 <notserpe> |R: no wifi yet so no mesh :]
Jul 10 05:25:15 <notserpe> anyhow mesh on these phones is impractical no?
Jul 10 05:25:44 <aloril> hopefully after this initial rush he can allows himself to rest a bit
Jul 10 05:27:24 <aloril> (wiki seems responsive now)
Jul 10 05:36:26 * xkr47 sent a cancel email for his #2602 dupe order
Jul 10 05:37:25 <daMaestro> sp, who is in charge of figuring out what prepay + data access plan is the best?
Jul 10 05:37:47 <daMaestro> at least in the US... on the other side of the pond.. they let you people do what you want
Jul 10 05:37:48 <daMaestro> lol
Jul 10 05:46:14 <aloril> hmm... could you terminate contract for free by using VOIP or prohibited usage (instead of $175 termination fee)? ;-)  http://www.broadbandreports.com/shownews/ATTs-iPhone-Fine-Print-85598
Jul 10 05:48:34 * aloril wonders how long until ticket numbers are >= 2820
Jul 10 05:49:58 <alanleung> aloril : that full of shit
Jul 10 05:50:29 <hads> Ya what?
Jul 10 05:50:36 <mashi> iphone's mail support attachments
Jul 10 05:51:54 <__alurdun> openembedded.org is toast.
Jul 10 05:52:08 <aloril> (script) openmoko-devel: Werner Almesberger <werner at openmoko.org> Re: why no lowlevel_foo for gtaXX ?
Jul 10 05:52:40 <xkr47> daMaestro, do most states in the US have the same kind of data access plan etc offers available?
Jul 10 05:52:52 <daMaestro> pretty much
Jul 10 05:52:54 <daMaestro> and they all suck
Jul 10 05:53:15 <__alurdun> You think US plans suck? Try a Canadian plan.
Jul 10 05:53:20 <mashi> damaestro : i am using cingular 3G. it's ok
Jul 10 05:53:28 <mashi> alurdun : even worst ;)
Jul 10 05:53:29 <xkr47> daMaestro, doh
Jul 10 05:53:38 <daMaestro> mashi, ok.. well 3g does no good with the moko
Jul 10 05:53:47 <daMaestro> mashi, and you should be saying att
Jul 10 05:53:55 <mashi> right.. att now
Jul 10 05:54:10 <mashi> the broadband reports reporter is moron
Jul 10 05:54:31 * aloril suspects EU shipping might happen before phase2 (why delay it once you get it working?)
Jul 10 05:54:37 <daMaestro> i'm thinking of trying to do prepay sim with a the wap access for $5.95/m to start
Jul 10 05:54:38 <mashi> all carrier have fix ETF now
Jul 10 05:54:41 <happycube> i think sprint has the best 3g data right now, but it's cdma :P
Jul 10 05:54:47 <_notserpe> __alurdun: depressing, eh
Jul 10 05:55:09 <happycube> verizon's is TOS'd into uselessness
Jul 10 05:55:12 <daMaestro> according to a few forums.. you can proxy out of the tmobile network 
Jul 10 05:55:16 <happycube> yeah
Jul 10 05:55:22 <happycube> and i think t-zones is part of prepaid...
Jul 10 05:55:29 <happycube> ;)
Jul 10 05:55:35 <mashi> happycube : some of them are
Jul 10 05:55:41 <mashi> depend on how lucky you are
Jul 10 05:55:50 <happycube> ahhh
Jul 10 05:56:13 <xkr47> daMaestro, maybe you should start a page on the wiki for finding out the best offers in US.. to me it sounds like a good idea?
Jul 10 05:56:23 <mashi> seriously.. the guy put article in broadband reports may never use cellular phone
Jul 10 05:56:26 <xkr47> maybe it could list the top 3 alternatives
Jul 10 05:57:00 <mashi> for ATT. you pay $20 mediamax. you can use video streaming no problem
Jul 10 05:57:28 <mashi> sprint just send out 1000 letter to customer and terminate their contract
Jul 10 05:57:51 <blindcoder> re
Jul 10 05:57:53 <mashi> tmo just cancelled my friend's family share. since her father use too much on night/weekend mins
Jul 10 05:58:22 <CM> xkr47: Or just list them all without ranking them ;)
Jul 10 05:58:36 <xkr47> yeah why not :)
Jul 10 05:58:43 * CM is also going on the ceap prepaid route
Jul 10 05:58:50 <xkr47> tmo? trackmania original ?-D
Jul 10 05:58:58 <CM> s/cea/chea/
Jul 10 05:59:18 <mashi> lol. t-mobile
Jul 10 05:59:22 <daMaestro> mashi, happycube well everything i have read states "tmobile, by default, leaves gprs enabled on their prepaid sims.. for billing purposes"
Jul 10 05:59:48 <mashi> damaestro : I have t-mobile prepaid sim also.. no t-zone
Jul 10 05:59:49 <daMaestro> up until about may of this year, i've read that they have had *free* gprs access for any autorized sim
Jul 10 05:59:54 <blindcoder> *shudder* gprs
Jul 10 06:00:07 <blindcoder> had to pay >400 EUR for 12 MB some time ago...
Jul 10 06:00:12 <daMaestro> then they stuck a proxy in front of that
Jul 10 06:00:17 <blindcoder> because they charged me old prices instead of current ones
Jul 10 06:00:19 <daMaestro> but you can still connect to the proxy and get out
Jul 10 06:00:50 <mashi> i tried. not even work with t-zone
Jul 10 06:00:54 <hads> GPRS is 10c/kB here
Jul 10 06:01:12 <blindcoder> hads: was 27 EUR / MB back then :/
Jul 10 06:01:46 <hads> Ouch
Jul 10 06:01:54 <mashi> this guy post in broadband report is dumb. he point out all the issue with ATT is standard to other carriers also
Jul 10 06:02:37 * blindcoder now continues trying to set up a openmoko development environment
Jul 10 06:03:21 <mashi> anyway.. bed time.. take care everyone
Jul 10 06:03:27 <blindcoder> boost fails again :(
Jul 10 06:03:28 <aloril> mashi: not here
Jul 10 06:03:42 <mashi> i wish GTA02 is out..
Jul 10 06:04:04 <mashi> GTA01 is little bit under power
Jul 10 06:04:26 <aloril> 1) usually only caller billed (except when roaming)
Jul 10 06:04:59 <aloril> 2) no termination fees (except those 3G bundles, but those are also always available with bundling)
Jul 10 06:05:04 <mashi> alroil : that's in EU. most carrier have mobile to mobile free(same carrier)
Jul 10 06:05:12 <aloril> and for non 3G phones bundling is illegal
Jul 10 06:05:15 <mashi> in US
Jul 10 06:06:09 <aloril> call price/minute is not expensive even when over quota, data however could be 5EUR/1MB (but there are flat rate 10 EUR plans that are actually unlimited)
Jul 10 06:06:28 <aloril> not aware of forbidden usages for data
Jul 10 06:06:50 <aloril> mashi: so, yeah you need to add "in US" as you did ;-)
Jul 10 06:07:14 <aloril> (there is quite amount of competition in Finland between carriers)
Jul 10 06:08:42 <daMaestro> yesss... the wiki is back online
Jul 10 06:08:58 <mashi> aloril : not only in fi.. everywhere in the world ;)
Jul 10 06:09:37 <mashi> oh yeah.. SE W950 is damn cheap now
Jul 10 06:09:44 <mashi> US$240
Jul 10 06:10:07 <daMaestro> darn.. but openmoko.com isn't up
Jul 10 06:11:57 <xkr47> daMaestro, so go add a page for available data plan options etc :)
Jul 10 06:14:21 <aloril> 'Linus Torvalds' and 'Steve Jobs' commenting ;-) http://blog.wired.com/monkeybites/2007/07/the-linux-power.html
Jul 10 06:15:03 * aloril wonders what readl Linus Torvalds thinks
Jul 10 06:15:52 <xkr47> daMaestro, it loaded for me, but very slow
Jul 10 06:15:56 * gcb77_ finally hacks around enough to get the emulator back up
Jul 10 06:16:16 <xkr47> (after 3 minutes it still has 3 images of 22 not finished loading)
Jul 10 06:23:54 <blindcoder> okay, now forced boost to use g++-34
Jul 10 06:23:58 <blindcoder> let's see if that works
Jul 10 06:24:28 <CM> blindcoder: Are there any bug reports about building boost?
Jul 10 06:24:47 <CM> What dist? Gentoo x86?
Jul 10 06:25:05 <blindcoder> CM: ROCK Linux Crystal
Jul 10 06:25:28 <CM> blindcoder: :D That's one I've never even heard of!
Jul 10 06:25:28 <blindcoder> CM: from internal working, I guess you could compare it to gentoo x86
Jul 10 06:25:46 <blindcoder> CM: it's a distribution build kit, and crystal is the example distribution
Jul 10 06:26:03 <blindcoder> CM: right now I get a few 'failed' with boost 1.34 and gcc 4.0.3
Jul 10 06:26:06 <CM> Ok. Cool. I'm on gentoo 64-bit
Jul 10 06:26:11 <blindcoder> CM: so I'm trying 3.4
Jul 10 06:26:48 <blindcoder> still fails :(
Jul 10 06:26:55 <blindcoder> ...failed gcc.link.dll bin.v2/libs/serialization/build/gcc-3.4/debug/threading-multi/libboost_serialization-gcc34-mt-d-1_34.so.1.34.0...
Jul 10 06:27:02 <blindcoder> that's all that is wrt. messages :(
Jul 10 06:27:26 * CM hasn't got a clue
Jul 10 06:27:31 <blindcoder> me neither
Jul 10 06:27:31 <gremlin[it]> hi all 
Jul 10 06:27:57 <daMaestro> xkr47, i'm not going to add anything until i finish my research
Jul 10 06:28:01 <CM> blindcoder: I've build boost-1.34.0 with gcc-4.1.2 and no trouble
Jul 10 06:28:17 <daMaestro> xkr47, and, sadly, i'm only going to put forth the effort for carriers in my area (including the rebrands)
Jul 10 06:28:22 <blindcoder> CM: just noticed tons of assembler errors earlier in the build process
Jul 10 06:29:09 <daMaestro> xkr47, i'm also battling the concept that if we disclose what carriers you can circumvent (ab)use ... we might end up shooting ourselves in the feet
Jul 10 06:30:03 <xkr47> true
Jul 10 06:31:09 <blindcoder> CM: http://pallas.crash-override.net/foo.txt
Jul 10 06:31:14 <blindcoder> CM: that's the errors
Jul 10 06:31:24 <aloril> quote:  <Stephmw>   orospakr: can you imagine your 8yr old mashing the on-screen buttons to get Mario to jump?
Jul 10 06:31:59 <CM> blindcoder: Doesn't really say much :(
Jul 10 06:32:04 <aloril> Stephmw[away]: there is simple way around that problem in GTA02: if too much acceleration, make it react more slowly ;-)
Jul 10 06:32:10 <blindcoder> great :(
Jul 10 06:35:38 <gremlin[it]> just an info, the openmoko phone now on sell have the wifi or not ? as the final consumer should have ... 
Jul 10 06:35:39 <aloril> GTA02 (P2) will have WiFi (Atheros AR6K): http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973  http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ#Q:_What_is_the_rationale_behind_the_exclusion_of_WiFi.3F
Jul 10 06:36:25 <CM> blindcoder: What flags are you using to gcc btw?
Jul 10 06:36:43 <blindcoder> CM: just found what that is. It's a "Won't fix" bug in gcc 3.4
Jul 10 06:37:06 <aloril> gremlin[it]: now: not, October: yes
Jul 10 06:37:06 <CM> Ok, maybe that's why it works with gcc-4.1.2
Jul 10 06:37:08 <blindcoder> CM: see bottom of: http://gcc.gnu.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=16276
Jul 10 06:37:47 <blindcoder> CM: I'll try 4.0.3, don't have any other gcc on my system
Jul 10 06:39:51 <blindcoder> CM: okay, it got past the point where 34 broke, now crossing fingers
Jul 10 06:40:14 <CM> blindcoder: IIRC it takes a while to build
Jul 10 06:40:20 <blindcoder> ooooh, signedness errors :)
Jul 10 06:40:26 <blindcoder> CM: yeah, around 90 minutes on my machine
Jul 10 06:41:39 <ewanm89_laptop> blindcoder: can you give the whole error message?
Jul 10 06:41:51 <blindcoder> ewanm89_laptop: http://pallas.crash-override.net/foo.txt
Jul 10 06:42:09 <blindcoder> ewanm89_laptop: that's the whole output of the g++ call
Jul 10 06:42:47 <blindcoder> ewanm89_laptop: reload, I've added the g++ call to the top of the file
Jul 10 06:44:28 <ewanm89_laptop> blindcoder: Does bin.v2/libs/serialization/build/gcc-3.4/debug/threading-multi/basic_oarchive.o exist? 
Jul 10 06:44:56 <blindcoder> ewanm89_laptop: yes
Jul 10 06:45:32 <ewanm89_laptop> Try asking on #boost
Jul 10 06:45:52 <blindcoder> ewanm89_laptop: I found that it is a gcc-3.4.x bug
Jul 10 06:46:00 <ewanm89_laptop> Ah
Jul 10 06:46:05 <blindcoder> ewanm89_laptop: 08:37 < blindcoder> CM: see bottom of: http://gcc.gnu.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=16276
Jul 10 06:46:22 <CM> blindcoder: But your signedness errors was something else?
Jul 10 06:46:28 <blindcoder> CM: that's just warnings
Jul 10 06:46:41 <CM> ok :)
Jul 10 06:47:51 <xkr47> #2686 latest ticket in P1_Owners
Jul 10 06:47:57 <cdbot2> * * OM Bug 634 has been created by inksmithy(AT)gmail.com
Jul 10 06:47:58 <cdbot2> * * Cannot target United Kingdom with Country Drop Down
Jul 10 06:47:59 <cdbot2> * * http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=634
Jul 10 06:48:42 <blindcoder> okay, now going over to company logistics and inquire them about handling of UPS
Jul 10 06:48:55 <blindcoder> so far, that's the best way to have it shipped to me
Jul 10 06:49:07 <xkr47> yeah, me too
Jul 10 06:49:17 <xkr47> don't have to be at home when it arrives
Jul 10 06:49:41 <CM> I'll go home when mine comes ;)=
Jul 10 06:49:48 <xkr47> :)
Jul 10 06:49:51 <blindcoder> xkr47: I'm not anywhere near where it ships when it arrives :(
Jul 10 06:50:02 <xkr47> doh
Jul 10 06:50:16 <hads> I have #2672
Jul 10 06:50:30 <blindcoder> 2672?
Jul 10 06:50:32 <ferric> does anyone know if there will be a board option to upgrade GTA01 to GTA02 so that we can get wifi without paying anohter $450?
Jul 10 06:50:32 <aloril> GTA02 (P2) will have WiFi (Atheros AR6K): http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973  http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ#Q:_What_is_the_rationale_behind_the_exclusion_of_WiFi.3F
Jul 10 06:50:38 <blindcoder> aren't there only 1000 units anyway?
Jul 10 06:50:50 <xkr47> blindcoder, ~1802 was the first
Jul 10 06:50:58 <xkr47> (should have been 1973 ;)
Jul 10 06:51:01 <blindcoder> ./boost/regex/icu.hpp:22:28: error: unicode/utypes.h: No such file or directory
Jul 10 06:51:04 <blindcoder> fun
Jul 10 06:51:09 <hads> blindcoder: Those order IDs don't start from 0 and aren't nessecarily sequential.
Jul 10 06:51:10 <aloril> 853 tickets now
Jul 10 06:51:21 <blindcoder> why do I even specify -sHAVE_ICU=0?
Jul 10 06:51:21 <aloril> (dunno how many double tickets though)
Jul 10 06:51:34 <blindcoder> hads: ah
Jul 10 06:51:44 <xkr47> aloril, how do you get 853? :)
Jul 10 06:51:54 <aloril> xkr47: oh, 1802? I remember 1820 being first
Jul 10 06:52:02 <xkr47> sorry, maybe :)
Jul 10 06:52:04 <hads> Yeah, it was I think
Jul 10 06:52:14 <xkr47> 2686 was the latest I saw
Jul 10 06:52:27 <blindcoder> okay, off to logistics
Jul 10 06:52:28 <blindcoder> bbl
Jul 10 06:52:44 <aloril> <Jason1>    roh: 1820 <roh>       Jason1 then you really got the first order through
Jul 10 06:52:45 <xkr47> hads, add yourself to the P1_Owners page ?-)
Jul 10 06:53:05 <xkr47> :)
Jul 10 06:53:15 <ferric> does anyone actually have one here?
Jul 10 06:53:25 <xkr47> CM came second, go sweden! :)
Jul 10 06:53:32 <hads> xkr47: It's not confirmed yet so I don't own one :)
Jul 10 06:53:43 <gremlin[it]> aloril, what is now on sell is P1 or P2 ? 
Jul 10 06:53:49 <aloril> P1
Jul 10 06:54:08 <aloril> what is sold NOW does NOT have wifi
Jul 10 06:54:13 <xkr47> me neither, I just got the "internet is working" confirmation
Jul 10 06:56:00 <gremlin[it]> thanks aloril ... really a shame ... 
Jul 10 06:56:08 <aloril> gremlin[it]: for really detailed information: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Category:Neo1973_Hardware
Jul 10 06:56:24 <Richard> Doesn't esd support adjust volume during play?
Jul 10 06:56:47 <aloril> well.. this is pretty good summary page ;-) http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/IPhone_%28GTA01%29
Jul 10 06:57:11 <ferric> aloril: do you know if it'll be possible to upgrade the board on the GTA01?
Jul 10 06:57:12 <CM> Richard: esd?
Jul 10 06:57:27 <aloril> ferric: don't know, it might be
Jul 10 06:57:28 <aloril> (script) openmoko-community: Sean Moss-Pultz <sean at openmoko.com> Re: Group purchase/shipping generally
Jul 10 06:58:06 <ewanm89_laptop> ferric: sean said he liked the idea in a mailing list post.
Jul 10 06:58:07 <ferric> aloril: hm...
Jul 10 06:58:17 <ferric> ewanm89_laptop: yes, i read that but he hasn't confirmed
Jul 10 06:58:17 <Richard> CM: yes, esound
Jul 10 06:58:34 <CM> Richard: OpenMoko use alsa and pulse audio
Jul 10 06:58:59 <CM> Or were you just asking in general? :)
Jul 10 06:59:06 <Richard> also esd protocol?
Jul 10 06:59:27 <linux_galore> pulse is pretty cool
Jul 10 06:59:33 <aloril> about upgrading board: http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2007-July/006108.html
Jul 10 06:59:36 <linux_galore> still needs work though
Jul 10 06:59:50 <aloril> and http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/announce/2007-July/000016.html
Jul 10 06:59:56 <Richard> pulse is cool for what?
Jul 10 07:00:08 <blindcoder> meh, can't grab anyone from there right now
Jul 10 07:00:13 <ferric> aloril: cool, thx
Jul 10 07:00:27 <CM> Richard: Lennard did a good summary of it, I'll find the slides
Jul 10 07:00:32 * ferric wonders whether to wait for october
Jul 10 07:00:52 <Richard> CM: thanks
Jul 10 07:00:57 <linux_galore> grr now getting spam with an attached pdf, <sigh>
Jul 10 07:01:01 <aloril> a bit confused at: http://www.boingboing.net/2007/07/09/openmoko_linuxbased_.html
Jul 10 07:01:22 <aloril> quotes: " Integrated AGPS" and then 'Gabriel sez, "The current version of the Neo1973 has built-in GPS too,'
Jul 10 07:01:44 <CM> Richard: http://0pointer.de/public/pulseaudio-presentation-lca2007.pdf
Jul 10 07:01:44 <linux_galore> ferric: wait till the GTA02 comes out, hardware is miles better and you get wifi
Jul 10 07:02:08 <CM> Richard: "Drop in replacement for ESD" :)
Jul 10 07:02:48 <xkr47> nice, 304 users on this channel :)
Jul 10 07:02:51 <Richard> CM: thanks a lot!
Jul 10 07:02:55 <jeddy3> linux_galore, hardware is miles better?
Jul 10 07:02:57 <blindcoder> if you can get the new board for a reasonable price, there's no need to wait :-)
Jul 10 07:03:14 <linux_galore> jeddy3: better cpu and a 3D graphics processor
Jul 10 07:03:34 <jeddy3> linux_galore, still, miles? :P
Jul 10 07:03:56 <jeddy3> linux_galore, software is miles better :)
Jul 10 07:03:59 <ferric> linux_galore: but if the board is replaceable that makes it ok, yes?
Jul 10 07:04:01 <linux_galore> jeddy3: well wifi for me is a must, bluetooth is like a poor mans wifi to me
Jul 10 07:04:04 <notserpe> linux_galore: assuming P2 hits October milestone... also
Jul 10 07:04:32 <ferric> which is highly suspect, given P1 delays
Jul 10 07:04:45 <linux_galore> well I can wait, I wouldnt be suprised if jan 08 is the release date
Jul 10 07:04:54 <aloril> sounds like direct only until October: http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2007-July/006704.html
Jul 10 07:05:00 <hads> Such negativity.
Jul 10 07:05:06 * daMaestro notes the above is why i just said screw it.. i'm getting a GTA01
Jul 10 07:05:13 * aloril guesses somebody else could do it ..
Jul 10 07:05:28 <notserpe> same here. October to January is a long way away.
Jul 10 07:05:32 <daMaestro> and i wanted to put my money where my mouth has been and come out in support of FIC
Jul 10 07:05:42 <notserpe> daMaestro: we think alike!
Jul 10 07:05:47 <daMaestro> ;-)
Jul 10 07:05:54 <linux_galore> Ive got a N95 (Toshiba G900 on order for testing) so I can wait
Jul 10 07:06:26 * ferric has a blackberry and is annoyed with it
Jul 10 07:06:58 <linux_galore> ferric: go look at the G900 on youtube , makes the blackberries look like a toy
Jul 10 07:07:38 <ferric> er, anything that runs windowsmobile needs to be destroyed
Jul 10 07:08:04 <ferric> i suppose waiting for a few days as people get their phones might make sense.
Jul 10 07:08:06 <linux_galore> nothing is worse than Simbian 
Jul 10 07:08:09 <xkr47> er, doesn't all phones look like toys :)
Jul 10 07:08:56 <linux_galore> Ive crashed my N95 a few times now
Jul 10 07:10:32 <linux_galore> one of the reasons I really like the idea of a Linux mobile phone is you can just remove the crap thats making it crash
Jul 10 07:10:56 <linux_galore> or patch it
Jul 10 07:11:08 <linux_galore> nope Im stuck till Nokia give me an update
Jul 10 07:12:45 <linux_galore> xkr47: HTC have a phone with a 7" LCD and a keyboard, hard put to call that monster a toy
Jul 10 07:13:05 <xkr47> :)
Jul 10 07:13:51 <linux_galore> xkr47: I found it amusing that Apple releases the iPhone and HTC/Microsoft release the "big assed phone from hell" about the same time
Jul 10 07:14:21 <xkr47> and openmoko.. :)
Jul 10 07:14:24 <linux_galore> goes quite well with their big assed table
Jul 10 07:14:46 <aloril> counter_msg (last update 2007-07-10 07:11) http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter : Order https://direct.openmoko.com/ ; Shipping prob. 60% in
Jul 10 07:14:46 <aloril> aloril changed counter prefix message to (last update 2007-07-10 07:11) http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter : Order https://direct.openmoko.com/ ; Shipping prob. 60% in 
Jul 10 07:15:10 <aloril> (just added Sean's mail about distributed shipping at October which I linked above)
Jul 10 07:15:13 <linux_galore> ie Microsoft touch sensitive table
Jul 10 07:16:18 <linux_galore> aloril: yeah I saw something on planet moko about FIC saying they are on schedule for october
Jul 10 07:16:41 <linux_galore> ie GTA02
Jul 10 07:18:23 <aloril> linux_galore: don't see anything except initial announcement (from 2007-06-27)
Jul 10 07:19:22 <Tronic> Is the display of OpenMoko multitouch-compatible?
Jul 10 07:19:33 <ferric> Tronic: no
Jul 10 07:19:38 <Tronic> Too bad :/
Jul 10 07:19:46 <barf> no apple logo either
Jul 10 07:19:59 <Tronic> Does it have high enough resolution for drawing (writing letters, mostly)?
Jul 10 07:20:38 <ferric> yeah, the display is mad good.
Jul 10 07:20:44 <ferric> read the comparison with the iPhone
Jul 10 07:21:33 <CM> Tronic: The resolution of the touch scren is supposed to be very good, but I Haven't tried it so I don't know for sure
Jul 10 07:21:56 <hads> VGA
Jul 10 07:21:57 <aloril> what I have heard about display here is along lines "You have to see it to believe how good it is" ;-)
Jul 10 07:22:02 <linux_galore> aloril: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973
Jul 10 07:23:15 <linux_galore> ferric: I though the screen they selected could do multitouch just its not setup
Jul 10 07:23:20 <linux_galore> thought*
Jul 10 07:23:24 <aloril> linux_galore: that is based on 2007-06-27 mail
Jul 10 07:23:36 <ferric> linux_galore: possiblty
Jul 10 07:23:43 <aloril> linux_galore: it could happen, but don't be surprised if its delayed
Jul 10 07:24:14 <linux_galore> aloril: also a mention in June 02
Jul 10 07:24:21 <linux_galore> on planet
Jul 10 07:24:34 <rwhitby> neo1973 screen cannot do multi-touch.  full stop.
Jul 10 07:25:43 <rwhitby> and there has been no talk (or svn checkins) about a different screen for GTA02, so one would expect it's the same screen used again.
Jul 10 07:25:44 <aloril> linux_galore: first prototype of GTA01 was 2006
Jul 10 07:25:45 <notserpe> anyone have any thoughts on SELinux on OpenMoko?
Jul 10 07:25:59 <aloril> linux_galore: though now I except things to move much faster ;-)
Jul 10 07:26:17 * aloril thinks first GTA01B was 2007-01?
Jul 10 07:26:21 <ferric> so wait, assuming the board is upgradeable in october - does that mean you could pay $120 and get the wifi/accelerometers/3d aceelerator?
Jul 10 07:26:50 <aloril> GTA01B_v04 hmm.. was it late March or early April?
Jul 10 07:26:54 <rwhitby> that's a pretty wild assumption that the board will be upgradeable.
Jul 10 07:27:12 <ferric> rwhitby: http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2007-July/006108.html
Jul 10 07:27:49 <rwhitby> ferric: yes, I've read that too.
Jul 10 07:27:57 <ferric> ...and you still think it's wild?
Jul 10 07:28:00 <rwhitby> yep
Jul 10 07:28:05 <ferric> or, is sean over-promising as usual?
Jul 10 07:28:09 <rwhitby> yep
Jul 10 07:28:21 <aloril> Sean is optimistic ;-)
Jul 10 07:28:29 <ferric> heh
Jul 10 07:28:48 <ferric> i guess i'll sleep on it, hopefully there will still be some neo's tomorrow.
Jul 10 07:29:07 <blindcoder> ferric: same thoughts I had yesterday :)
Jul 10 07:29:08 <aloril> ferric: they will make more...
Jul 10 07:29:12 <hads> There will be more
Jul 10 07:29:12 <blindcoder> still no real decision today
Jul 10 07:29:19 <ferric> lol blindcoder 
Jul 10 07:29:27 <TRIsoft> morning
Jul 10 07:29:28 <aloril> (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Group_Order]] [[Wish_List]] [[Steampunk]] [[Category:Neo1973_alternate_cases]] [[P1_Owners]] [[Category:Neo1973_case_mods]] [[Alternate_Neo1973_case_designs]] [[User:Dux]]
Jul 10 07:29:41 <blindcoder> ferric: if it's not upgradable, there's no reason for me to spend 700 usd on an inferior product
Jul 10 07:29:52 <aloril> TRIsoft: I recall you had plans to resell Neo1973?
Jul 10 07:29:56 <hads> It'd be hard to say whether there'd be any of the first 1k left tomorrow.
Jul 10 07:30:13 <ferric> 700!?!!!
Jul 10 07:30:20 <rwhitby> ferric: I've held an open neo1973 in my hands, and looked at how i would go removing the lcd and stuff.
Jul 10 07:30:24 <blindcoder> ferric: shipping and import VAT
Jul 10 07:30:25 <rwhitby> (I have two of them)
Jul 10 07:30:35 <TRIsoft> aloril: Not just plans. Talking with FIC/OM since the last 6 months ;-)
Jul 10 07:30:41 <hads> aloril: I do if/when that is an option.
Jul 10 07:30:44 <ferric> rwhitby: so upgrading woill be hard?
Jul 10 07:31:06 <aloril> TRIsoft: yeah, but have you already ordered bundle of them? ;-)
Jul 10 07:31:06 <ferric> blindcoder: ouch
Jul 10 07:31:18 <rwhitby> upgrading which consists of replacing the *entire* internals (board, screen, etc as one unit) is easy.  but that would cost the same as a new unit basically
Jul 10 07:31:19 <ferric> i was going to whine about $15 ground shipping but i'll pass :)
Jul 10 07:31:25 <CM> I'm expecting to buy a GTA02 later on
Jul 10 07:31:32 <ferric> rwhitby: not if the board is $150/
Jul 10 07:31:45 <rwhitby> who said the board is $150?
Jul 10 07:31:48 <CM> Highly doubtful that it's just a quick swap upgrade
Jul 10 07:31:55 <blindcoder> ferric: heh, 115 USD shipping :(
Jul 10 07:31:56 <TRIsoft> aloril: It's not that easy. Last info is that they want direct shipping for at least the first month.
Jul 10 07:32:10 <aloril> well.. I guess http://www.trisoft.de/en_index.html will be updated once you have some concrete... (assuming I recall correctly that you and this site belong together)
Jul 10 07:32:17 <aloril> ah, ok
Jul 10 07:32:32 <ferric> rwhitby: ah, right. not sean, it was someone else.
Jul 10 07:32:38 <rwhitby> exactly.
Jul 10 07:32:45 <aloril> ferric: that is just educated guess by outsider
Jul 10 07:32:47 <TRIsoft> aloril: Definitely. We're just waiting for the "GO" signal from Sean...
Jul 10 07:32:59 <ferric> i guess i'll wait, then.
Jul 10 07:32:59 <rwhitby> lots of people post wrong information based on no knowledge of how much is costs to make stuff
Jul 10 07:33:07 <ferric> for gta02 till jan08 or whenever :)
Jul 10 07:33:39 <hads> There's plans to distribute Phase 2 through resellers right?
Jul 10 07:33:44 <ferric> rwhitby: economies of scale help, but i doubt this is going to sell as much as the iphone :D
Jul 10 07:33:59 <aloril> hads: it sounds like that
Jul 10 07:34:09 <Richard> any reason that open use jiff2 instead of yaffs2?
Jul 10 07:34:20 <hads> I was planning on talking to them about that since we run a telephony related store here.
Jul 10 07:34:45 <Richard> any reason that openmoko use jiff2 instead of yaffs2?
Jul 10 07:34:55 <TRIsoft> hads: Phase 2 phones should be available in almost every store...
Jul 10 07:35:30 <rwhitby> ferric: economies of scale kick in when you sell millions, not hundreds.
Jul 10 07:35:59 <hads> TRIsoft: Cool, as I suspected. Probably not every store over here though, stuff like this doesn't get sold much locally. That's why I got into it :)
Jul 10 07:36:20 <rwhitby> Richard: probably cause openembedded is already set up to produce jffs2 images, but is not set up to produce jaffs2 images
Jul 10 07:36:32 * aloril somehow can't believe board only would be just $150
Jul 10 07:36:40 <CM> Richard: Hopefully logfs can be used soon :)
Jul 10 07:36:55 <aloril> but.. then I don't know about that stuff, just doesn't feel like it 
Jul 10 07:37:02 <rwhitby> aloril: absolutely no chance - the board (and everything attached to it) is at least $80 of the material costs
Jul 10 07:37:09 <TRIsoft> hads: FIC/OM will make the Neo available through "normal" distribution channels. So every shop should be able to sell them like any other product
Jul 10 07:37:09 <blindcoder> okay, I've decided. Until there's a decision on upgrade boards made, I won't order. I'll develop stuff in qemu until then.
Jul 10 07:37:20 <aloril> rwhitby: good to know
Jul 10 07:37:42 <rwhitby> the plastic costs nothing (relatively speaking) per unit (once the tooling is done - the tooling itself is very expensive)
Jul 10 07:37:51 <hads> TRIsoft: What does "normal" distribution channels mean? That would be different in every country.
Jul 10 07:37:56 <rwhitby> and there's not much else to the phone which is not attached to the main PCB
Jul 10 07:38:39 <TRIsoft> hads: At least one large distributor for every region. Otherwise you'll never get "mass market" access
Jul 10 07:38:42 <rwhitby> blindcoder: I think you can assume that board upgrade plans (even if the did make sense) would be way down the list of priorities ...
Jul 10 07:39:02 <TRIsoft> hads: But Phase 2 is far away :-(
Jul 10 07:39:19 <blindcoder> rwhitby: yeah, probably. It just doesn't amke sense to pump out 700 usd now just to pump out another 600 usd when phase 2 starts.
Jul 10 07:39:35 <blindcoder> rwhitby: I'm not exactly shitting gold bricks :-)
Jul 10 07:39:40 <rwhitby> blindcoder: yep, that the decision that each person needs to make.
Jul 10 07:39:40 <aloril> rwhitby: yeah, I guess its basically just screen price that could be reduced
Jul 10 07:40:12 <hads> TRIsoft: Yeah, "normal" is relative :) I deal with distributors all over the show because of weird distribution schemes.
Jul 10 07:40:37 <rwhitby> aloril: I'd like to see even 1 out of 10 geeks be able to remove the screen from the PCB and attach a new one without breaking something.
Jul 10 07:40:44 <TRIsoft> hads: That's all still in planning stage
Jul 10 07:41:03 <hads> TRIsoft: But good to know. I'll be there to import them into NZ when it happens from whereever the closest distribution point is.
Jul 10 07:41:10 <ajmitch> hads: so I might see one in a local shop one day? :)
Jul 10 07:41:12 <aloril> blindcoder: where do you get $700?
Jul 10 07:41:29 <blindcoder> aloril: 450 USD dev kit + 115 USD shipping + 19% import VAT
Jul 10 07:42:11 <CM> I wonder if there's any chance to avoild the import tax..
Jul 10 07:42:25 <hads> ajmitch: :) I'll import them and sell them as long as it has a decent distribution arrangement and it's financially viable.
Jul 10 07:42:31 <aloril> fly to USA, buy one, fly back? ;-)
Jul 10 07:42:41 <blindcoder> CM: only by picking it up personally
Jul 10 07:43:09 <blindcoder> sadly, I don't have anyone going to the US anytime...
Jul 10 07:43:15 * blindcoder hears gears shifting in his brain
Jul 10 07:43:15 <hads> ajmitch: My mission is to sell open source related intering stuff :)
Jul 10 07:43:31 <CM> blindcoder: A shame that tickets to Taiwan is more expensive than the VAT. I'd gladly travel some ;)
Jul 10 07:43:45 <ajmitch> hads: looking forward to it :)
Jul 10 07:43:46 <blindcoder> CM: yeah
Jul 10 07:44:58 <blindcoder> CM: in theory, if you declare a value of 0 you don't pay income tax
Jul 10 07:45:02 <blindcoder> CM: becasue 19% of 0 is 0
Jul 10 07:45:12 <blindcoder> CM: the question is whether customs believe that
Jul 10 07:45:24 <blindcoder> import tax
Jul 10 07:45:32 <CM> blindcoder: Yes, mark it as "Gift". But it's fraud, even if I wouldn't care...
Jul 10 07:45:55 <blindcoder> CM: depending on local law... since I'm not going to _resell_ it, it has a market value of 0
Jul 10 07:46:11 <blindcoder> damn, I need one of our logistics guys! now!
Jul 10 07:46:18 <blindcoder> where is everyone when you need them
Jul 10 07:46:22 <wizdumb> hey the site is back up :)
Jul 10 07:47:05 <wizdumb> I have a question, will the current dev model be upgradable to the new specs for the next hardware revision?
Jul 10 07:47:25 <blindcoder> wizdumb: that's what everybody wonders and noone really knows
Jul 10 07:47:35 <wizdumb> FIC isnt telling eh?
Jul 10 07:48:00 <aloril> CM: fly to California, create Beowulf cluster from Neo1973's and then import that as personal item ;-)
Jul 10 07:48:07 <blindcoder> ah, a logistics guy
Jul 10 07:48:10 <blindcoder> brb
Jul 10 07:49:25 <aloril> wizdumb: they don't have resources to evaluate that question
Jul 10 07:49:41 <wizdumb> fair enough
Jul 10 07:50:40 <wizdumb> some friends are curious why gtk library was chosen over qt?
Jul 10 07:50:47 <wizdumb> if anyone knows?
Jul 10 07:50:54 <CM> aloril: Hehe
Jul 10 07:50:56 <aloril> guess: LGPL vs GPL
Jul 10 07:51:03 <koen|inverness> wrong
Jul 10 07:51:22 <koen|inverness> QToptia wasn't GPL at the time, it was closed & proprietary
Jul 10 07:51:44 <aloril> koen|inverness: umm.. isn't QT!=QTopia?
Jul 10 07:52:02 <CM> wizdumb: I (and rwhitby) highly doubts that you will be able to update the GTA01 to a 02
Jul 10 07:52:19 <aloril> with GTK vs QTopia its also former being just X11, later being special stuff
Jul 10 07:52:28 <blindcoder> okay, it seems it's possible
Jul 10 07:52:47 <blindcoder> basic idea is to mark it as 'development sample' to get around most customs hassles
Jul 10 07:52:55 <aloril> there is simple way to upgrade GTA01 to GTA02: ebay GTA01, buy GTA02
Jul 10 07:53:07 <wizdumb> CM, is that true of all the hardware updates?  for example, could the wifi or the tilt accelerometers be added?
Jul 10 07:53:26 <aloril> that probably gets all price reduction any board update could get
Jul 10 07:53:31 <wizdumb> i suppose thats a tough call if they dont have it finished yet
Jul 10 07:53:57 <notserpe> wizdumb: speedevil mentioned that he might make some debug port 3d accel
Jul 10 07:54:53 <aloril> difference between: 1) buy GTA01 later buy GTA02 board
Jul 10 07:55:05 <aloril> 2) buy GTA01 later buy GTA02
Jul 10 07:55:11 <aloril> and sell GTA01
Jul 10 07:55:23 <wizdumb> fair enough
Jul 10 07:55:25 <blindcoder> aloril: who's gonna buy a gta01 when the 02 is available?
Jul 10 07:55:48 <Kero> blindcoder: for which country/ies does that 'dev sample' help?
Jul 10 07:55:55 <aloril> difference between 1) and 2) is that with 1) you have board left without case and screen, but otherwise I suspect with 2) you get more reduction in price
Jul 10 07:56:05 <wizdumb> so does anyone know if its possible to use qt on the device? or is it limited to gtk only?
Jul 10 07:56:20 <aloril> blindcoder: price difference between new GTA02 and used GTA01 is quite nice ;-)
Jul 10 07:56:25 <blindcoder> Kero: germany here
Jul 10 07:56:38 <koen|inverness> wizdumb: the device is open, it runs anything you compile
Jul 10 07:56:46 <blindcoder> Kero: still waiting for confirmation from logistics though
Jul 10 07:56:57 <notserpe> aloril: my plan is perhaps a) buy GTA01, hope upgrade path b) buy P2 c) mount P1 on my bike as dumb AGPS until I crash, d) add data to openstreetmap ;-)
Jul 10 07:57:21 <xkr47> d) before you crash :)
Jul 10 07:57:30 <wizdumb> koen|inverness, but you couldnt just make use of qt "instead of" gtk, since matchbox relys on it, is that correct?
Jul 10 07:57:44 <koen|inverness> incorrect
Jul 10 07:58:09 <Kero> blindcoder: ok, I'm in .nl chances are, works similar here. lemme know what your logistics guy tells you
Jul 10 07:58:16 <blindcoder> notserpe: c) is actually an interesting idea
Jul 10 07:58:18 <notserpe> okay, c) pt II have it bluetooth gps data to my pc when in range until I crash it.
Jul 10 07:58:27 <aloril> blindcoder: I would almost surely buy used GTA01 for $100 ...  ;-)
Jul 10 07:58:42 <blindcoder> notserpe: if I could combine that gps data with a camera and a map...
Jul 10 07:58:48 * aloril believes you can sell it for higher price when GTA02 is available
Jul 10 07:59:27 <notserpe> blindcoder: I'll build a streaming bike video app once a camera model is available. 100%!
Jul 10 07:59:41 <blindcoder> notserpe: I'm not interested in _any_ mobile phone with a camera
Jul 10 07:59:42 <aloril> wizdumb: OpenMoko is just normal Linux distribution
Jul 10 07:59:49 <blindcoder> notserpe: too much hassle in the corporate world
Jul 10 08:00:14 <aloril> albeit quite stripped down, but ..
Jul 10 08:00:23 <blindcoder> notserpe: I got a realy nice cam with a sweet IEEE1394 interface and a standart tripod mount
Jul 10 08:00:31 <CM> blindcoder: I agree, corporate securtiy ppl is a pain! :P
Jul 10 08:00:32 <blindcoder> notserpe: which I'm going to mount on my motorbike
Jul 10 08:01:07 <blindcoder> CM: yeah, so currently I'm stuck with crappy phones because good ones without cameras just aren't made anymore
Jul 10 08:01:08 <wizdumb> aloril, right, so i guess what I'm trying to understand is how much of it was designed specifically around the use of GTK, so if someone wanted to use QT exclusively instead on theirs, how difficult would that be?
Jul 10 08:01:54 <notserpe> blindcoder: someone has a cool fw 360 degree camera system for sale... out of Vancouver or westcoast someplace. I'd love to mount something like that...
Jul 10 08:02:04 <aloril> wizdumb: actually with microSD you can probably install a bit tweaked Debian, etc.. (has anybody done this yet?)
Jul 10 08:02:20 <CM> wizdumb: THe OpenMoko distribution is based on gtk, but I'm sure there's people interested in both qt and enlightment gui's on the Neo
Jul 10 08:02:39 <blindcoder> notserpe: sounds sweet
Jul 10 08:02:56 * CM hopes all GTA01 phone packages are marked "Development sample"
Jul 10 08:03:05 <CM> That's not even a lie
Jul 10 08:03:27 <blindcoder> CM: indeed.
Jul 10 08:03:59 <aloril> its sold as "Developer preview"
Jul 10 08:04:57 <aloril> wizdumb: install qt and try some qt apps yourself on Qemu? I don't see any reason why that wouldn't work
Jul 10 08:05:13 <wizdumb> awesome, thanks guys :)
Jul 10 08:05:19 <ajmitch> aloril: I suspect that within a few days/hours of getting a GTA01, people will have debian on it
Jul 10 08:06:05 <ferric> rwhitby: so you think it makes more sense to wait for GTA02?
Jul 10 08:06:37 <mjr> though, having qt apps will eat some more precious memory unnecessarily
Jul 10 08:06:42 <mjr> should work, of course
Jul 10 08:06:56 <mjr> (and there's the moko theming and gui guidelines...)
Jul 10 08:07:49 <blindcoder> okay, I just might have someone going to the states...
Jul 10 08:08:22 <ferric> blindcoder: where are you located?
Jul 10 08:08:26 <blindcoder> ferric: berlin
Jul 10 08:08:30 <ferric> ah
Jul 10 08:08:47 <ferric> i have a feeling shipping will come down in a few week
Jul 10 08:08:48 <ferric> s
Jul 10 08:09:08 <blindcoder> ferric: if I can get my hands on a phone without shipping and income tax, I'll buy now and buy later
Jul 10 08:09:16 <blindcoder> ferric: otherwise I'll wait for october
Jul 10 08:09:49 <ferric> wow.
Jul 10 08:09:52 <ferric> that's almost $1k
Jul 10 08:10:02 <blindcoder> I just got a raise :)
Jul 10 08:10:05 <ferric> haha
Jul 10 08:10:16 <ferric> maybe that's what i should do, go ask for a raise
Jul 10 08:10:18 <blindcoder> also, I sold my car (unrelated to the phone)
Jul 10 08:10:45 <ferric> lol
Jul 10 08:11:02 * ferric wonders if that's the first story of someone selling their car to buy a phone
Jul 10 08:11:09 <blindcoder> it's not!
Jul 10 08:11:13 <blindcoder> I sold it because I got a motorbike
Jul 10 08:11:25 <blindcoder> I neer really needed the car in the last 12 months
Jul 10 08:11:31 <CM> aloril: I mailed orders@openmoko.com and asked about having it maked "Development preview"
Jul 10 08:11:31 <blindcoder> drove it about a half dozen times
Jul 10 08:11:51 <blindcoder> all but one time without anything in it besides me
Jul 10 08:11:53 <notserpe> at least you won't run me over talking on your moko while driving your car!
Jul 10 08:11:59 * CM bought a car last week
Jul 10 08:12:15 <blindcoder> notserpe: right, I'll run you over looking at my mokos GPS while driving my bike :D
Jul 10 08:12:52 <notserpe> and we'll both capture it all on video ;-)
Jul 10 08:13:05 <blindcoder> hehehe
Jul 10 08:13:22 * blindcoder snickers at the imagination of that
Jul 10 08:20:00 <bedboi> hi there
Jul 10 08:20:33 <hrw> ho
Jul 10 08:21:14 <ferric> can u choose the color f the phone?
Jul 10 08:21:59 <Rince> blakc or white
Jul 10 08:22:14 <mjr> ferric, put it in the comment textbox
Jul 10 08:22:29 <ferric> what are the colors?
Jul 10 08:22:50 <ferric> black/orange and white/orange?
Jul 10 08:23:16 <hrw> black/silver and white/orange
Jul 10 08:23:31 <hrw> there was also white/red but only in prototypes
Jul 10 08:25:17 <ferric> ok i guess i'll have to email them with my color preference
Jul 10 08:27:29 <Stephmw> howdy
Jul 10 08:28:17 <FuzzyCat> who broke uboot 
Jul 10 08:29:12 <Stephmw> FuzzyCat: thanks for the ccache info... I'd assumed it could keep them separate
Jul 10 08:30:04 <FuzzyCat> I thought htat too.. until i tried to compile for arm ... then I kept getting errors about libs being in the wrong format
Jul 10 08:30:30 <FuzzyCat> cleared the cache, and it worked fine
Jul 10 08:31:37 <FuzzyCat> actually Stephmw ...
Jul 10 08:31:50 <FuzzyCat> my own stupidness has just struck me
Jul 10 08:32:17 <FuzzyCat> spot the error: "ccache gcc"
Jul 10 08:32:26 <FuzzyCat> when compiling for arm....
Jul 10 08:32:40 <Stephmw> bwahahaha
Jul 10 08:33:06 <Stephmw> mind you, I've seen toolchains that symlinked arm-gcc to gcc in the past
Jul 10 08:33:10 <Stephmw> esp in a chroot
Jul 10 08:33:52 <FuzzyCat> :)
Jul 10 08:43:34 <bedboi> hrw: do you think that if I place the order today the neo will arrive until 5 august in italy? I know you don't have psychic powers :)
Jul 10 08:44:15 <bedboi> (do you?)
Jul 10 08:45:40 <ScaredyCat> depends if you select 'ship by donkey' or not..
Jul 10 08:46:45 <hrw> bedboi: I am not part of openmoko coreteam
Jul 10 08:46:58 <ScaredyCat> shipping  should start around 16th, if you select the express option, ups say something like 2 buisness days to main hub, then depending on where you are +1 or +2
Jul 10 08:48:03 <ScaredyCat> so in *theory* it is possible for it to arrive the week of the 16th
Jul 10 08:48:36 <ScaredyCat> that is of coruse provided they have some ready made...
Jul 10 08:48:53 <ScaredyCat> there's no indication of stock level on the site, sadly
Jul 10 08:49:11 <andylockran> ScaredyCat: nor an indication of the well-being of their donkeys
Jul 10 08:50:26 <CM> bedboi: The UPS shipping is fairly quick. I think the actual order handling at FIC will be the bottle neck
Jul 10 08:53:34 <ScaredyCat> true andylockran
Jul 10 08:54:30 <hrw> CM: true
Jul 10 08:58:36 <CM> Seems to be around 700 orders placed, guessing from the order numbers. Will take a while to send
Jul 10 09:08:47 * aloril wonders what are latest order numbers
Jul 10 09:09:07 <ScaredyCat> yes, but they have to to then by order id right :D
Jul 10 09:09:15 <Stephmw> ;)
Jul 10 09:09:16 <ScaredyCat> s/then/them/
Jul 10 09:09:16 <apt> ScaredyCat meant: yes, but they have to to them by order id right :D
Jul 10 09:09:26 <Stephmw> I'd love to eventually see a chart of orders/time
Jul 10 09:10:01 <ScaredyCat> I think I was 6th
Jul 10 09:10:05 <ScaredyCat> :/
Jul 10 09:11:28 <ScaredyCat> of course, it sort of went to pot not long after that
Jul 10 09:11:34 <CM> ScaredyCat: #1826?
Jul 10 09:11:47 <CM> No, 25
Jul 10 09:12:11 <Fatal> I'm probably 4783
Jul 10 09:12:31 <Fatal> had to wait for two collegues to find it in their heart that they are geeks
Jul 10 09:12:53 <CM> Fatal: But you've placed an order now or?
Jul 10 09:12:58 <Fatal> yes
Jul 10 09:13:07 <Fatal> did it last night, ~12 hours ago
Jul 10 09:13:16 <CM> And no confirmation email?
Jul 10 09:13:31 <CM> The automated one that says the order registered?
Jul 10 09:13:32 <Fatal> oh, sorry, yes, I got a confirmation email
Jul 10 09:13:35 <Fatal> aye
Jul 10 09:13:38 <CM> Ah, good :)
Jul 10 09:13:40 * ewon got no confirmation email :(
Jul 10 09:13:50 <ewon> or any replies to my emails to sales@openmoko
Jul 10 09:13:52 <CM> Exactly, some didn't get it
Jul 10 09:14:02 <mmazur> Some?
Jul 10 09:14:08 <mmazur> And for those that do: what's the from address?
Jul 10 09:14:10 <CM> xkr47 had to redo his order
Jul 10 09:14:12 <ScaredyCat> cm yes 1826
Jul 10 09:14:21 <ewon> so do I have to resubmit my order?
Jul 10 09:14:34 <hads> CM: xkr47 now has two confirmations now though...
Jul 10 09:14:38 <mmazur> And what emails are you talking about? The instant one or the final one with 'transaction approved'?
Jul 10 09:14:39 <CM> ScaredyCat: Then you're 7, Jason1 was first with 1820 according to roh
Jul 10 09:14:43 <CM> hads: Heh
Jul 10 09:14:52 <ScaredyCat> :O
Jul 10 09:15:19 <Fatal> ouch
Jul 10 09:15:26 <ScaredyCat> I thought you were first with 1821 .. bah 7 thet's just so unlucky
Jul 10 09:15:26 <hads> CM: Not nessecarily, maybe another mail went into the RT queue that wasn't an order, or whatever.
Jul 10 09:15:41 <blindcoder> okay, at least there's no further customs tax on importing mobile phones, just VAT
Jul 10 09:15:48 <Fatal> we're #760 in that case :X
Jul 10 09:16:06 <CM> mmazur: I haven't gotten a "Transaction approved" mail yet
Jul 10 09:16:09 <Fatal> I'm going to stab my collegues :)
Jul 10 09:16:11 <hads> They aren't nessecarily sequential...
Jul 10 09:16:20 <ScaredyCat> mmazur: trasaciton approved? I haven't had that
Jul 10 09:16:42 <CM> hads: roh said they are squential, but not all are orders. :)
Jul 10 09:16:48 <aloril> CM: got that AutoReply mail for first order today
Jul 10 09:17:05 <hads> CM: hah, yeah, you got me there.
Jul 10 09:17:07 <aloril> s:got:xkr47 got:
Jul 10 09:17:33 <ScaredyCat> "
Jul 10 09:17:33 <ScaredyCat> Please keep in mind that this message does not imply that we accept your order, but thats we have received it.
Jul 10 09:17:33 <ScaredyCat> You will receive another message as order confirmation after our staff has accepted it.
Jul 10 09:17:35 <ScaredyCat> "
Jul 10 09:17:55 * CM twiddles thumbs and waits
Jul 10 09:18:10 <aloril> mmazur: talking about automatic mails, I don't think anybody has gotten second actual confirmation mail
Jul 10 09:18:12 <CM> Not feeling very focused at work today.. :P
Jul 10 09:18:14 <ScaredyCat> are they not dealing with them by order id? 
Jul 10 09:18:30 <CM> They will
Jul 10 09:18:40 <aloril> maybe all forces are focused on keeping site running? ;-)
Jul 10 09:19:11 <mmazur> ScaredyCat, well, I assume they'll actually *send* something ones they'll get around to like, actually figuring out that mam CC info is ok and that they really want to send me a phone.
Jul 10 09:19:15 <ScaredyCat> peddal faster mickey_away
Jul 10 09:20:09 <ScaredyCat> yeah, I'm sure they want to check, but they could a at least do pre auth on the card...
Jul 10 09:20:50 <aloril> also some orders have more than one Neo1973, dunno what rt ticket numbers is == first 1000 units gone, there will be some additional delay now
Jul 10 09:22:10 <ScaredyCat> yeah, bu unless the 6 people before be purchased all 1000, I don;t care :)
Jul 10 09:22:16 <ScaredyCat> s/bu/but/
Jul 10 09:22:17 <apt> ScaredyCat meant: yeah, but unless the 6 people before be purchased all 1000, I don;t care :)
Jul 10 09:22:23 <ScaredyCat> me
Jul 10 09:22:27 <ewon> really would appreciate some kind of response from them
Jul 10 09:22:43 <ScaredyCat> gah, type properly finger, or I'll cut you off
Jul 10 09:22:44 <ewon> giving ppl my cc number and then not hearing anything makes one nervois
Jul 10 09:22:49 <blindcoder> yay! boost finally compiled :D
Jul 10 09:23:04 <hads> ewon: Patience, they're busy.
Jul 10 09:23:06 <CM> blindcoder: Congratulations ;)
Jul 10 09:23:28 <mdt> at what moment the creditcard will be charged? know? when shipping?
Jul 10 09:23:41 <CM> ScaredyCat: The maximum you can order on the page is 11 phones. More than that, you'll have to mail Sean
Jul 10 09:23:48 <hads> mdt: Patience, they're busy.
Jul 10 09:23:59 <ScaredyCat> then, I'm safe..
Jul 10 09:24:00 <ScaredyCat> :)
Jul 10 09:24:03 <woglinde> hehe
Jul 10 09:24:06 <woglinde> hi
Jul 10 09:24:23 <jpcass> i ordered a neo yesterday and got a reply e-mail but it was blank - is that everyone else's experience?  Anyone got a reply that confirms the order or an order number?
Jul 10 09:24:38 <mdt> jpcass, yes, i did
Jul 10 09:24:49 <ScaredyCat> you just get an rt ticket number
Jul 10 09:24:55 <CM> jouston: Yes, order number and the address info I submitted
Jul 10 09:24:56 <aloril> ScaredyCat: not 'possible', there is 11 unit limit ;-)
Jul 10 09:25:17 <ScaredyCat> aloril: unless CM preordered them all
Jul 10 09:25:24 <CM> :P
Jul 10 09:25:45 <jpcass> scaredycat: yes it looks like an "rt ticket number" - what is that?  does that mean Im on a waiting list or something?
Jul 10 09:25:45 <CM> ScaredyCat: I wish I was a filthy rich bastard, but unfortunatley I'm not ;)
Jul 10 09:25:57 <ScaredyCat> :)
Jul 10 09:26:14 <ScaredyCat> jpcass: the ticket number is you order number
Jul 10 09:26:28 <ScaredyCat> but the mail should have had your details in it..
Jul 10 09:26:31 <jouston> CM: What? Order number?
Jul 10 09:26:46 <CM> jouston: #1821
Jul 10 09:27:03 <jouston> CM: Let me check... XD
Jul 10 09:27:14 <jpcass> scaredycat: thanks, I'll write back.  my rt number >2000 so probably Im waiting till october ;-(  (thought I was pretty fast)
Jul 10 09:27:17 <aloril> jpcass: it should have ticket number, your address, what you ordered, etc..
Jul 10 09:27:22 <CM> jouston: Oh, sorry, I meant jpcass 
Jul 10 09:27:43 <CM> jouston: Pressed jo <tab> instead of jp. Sorry
Jul 10 09:27:46 <aloril> jpcass: they will manufacture more
Jul 10 09:27:57 <notserpe> anyone have mbox format archives of the various lists?
Jul 10 09:28:03 <ScaredyCat> jpcass: the order number doesn't mean too much, because all email to the rt system is allocated a number, even spam.
Jul 10 09:28:09 <aloril> guess: 0-3 weeks of additional delay
Jul 10 09:29:09 <ScaredyCat> ... and they only started at 1820 (afaik)
Jul 10 09:29:54 <ScaredyCat> CM: have you replied to your ticket?
Jul 10 09:30:10 <aa_> hi, can I generally run any pygtk application on an openmoko system?
Jul 10 09:30:10 <aloril> aa_: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.)
Jul 10 09:30:18 <CM> ScaredyCat: Yes, once. To ask if they could label the package Development Sample :D
Jul 10 09:30:20 <mmazur> Yeah, the giving ppl my cc part I didn't actually like either.
Jul 10 09:30:22 <jpcass> scaredycat: ok, good!  might be in luck...I replied to that blank email asking for a confirmation, is that mail address monitored by someone or automatic?
Jul 10 09:30:30 <ScaredyCat> I replied to mine requesting a colour choice, but got nothing back..
Jul 10 09:30:33 <aloril> notserpe: looked at http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/ (those Gzip'd text links)
Jul 10 09:30:43 <ScaredyCat> it should be automated jpcass
Jul 10 09:30:43 <CM> ScaredyCat: Didn't get any reply either
Jul 10 09:30:47 <ScaredyCat> CM: did you get an autoreply ?
Jul 10 09:30:59 <aloril> aa_: yes, but you need to install python and other libraries
Jul 10 09:31:02 <blindcoder> aloril: those aren't mbox format
Jul 10 09:31:07 <jouston> CM: I did make an test order. I thought I didn't delete it yet... :D
Jul 10 09:31:09 <blindcoder> aloril: at least mutt doesn't recognize it as sich
Jul 10 09:31:11 <blindcoder> such
Jul 10 09:31:27 <CM> No, when you mail to oder@om I think it's roh or someone else going through it
Jul 10 09:31:30 <blindcoder> aloril: although for the gsmd-devel I did some manual tweaking
Jul 10 09:31:30 <notserpe> aloril: wow, I can't believe I didn't notice that. thanks.
Jul 10 09:31:32 <aa_> aloril: and will it look like other openmoko platform applications?
Jul 10 09:32:11 <aloril> aa_: I think python bindings are done for openmoko libraries too
Jul 10 09:32:28 <aloril> (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[USB/it]] [[Neo1973_Hardware/de]] [[FIC/it]] [[P1_Owners]] [[Main_Page/it]] [[Alternate_Neo1973_case_designs]] [[Digital_gaming]] [[Meet_the_Core_Team/it]] [[Steampunk]] [[Buying_Interest_List]]
Jul 10 09:32:42 <aloril> blindcoder: ah, ok (they do have "From " -line so thought they would be...)
Jul 10 09:33:05 <blindcoder> aloril: yeah, but it must be a "From <valid mail address> <date in UTC>" for it to be mbox
Jul 10 09:33:13 <aloril> jpcass: I haven't heard anybody getting black mail
Jul 10 09:33:17 <aa_> aloril: ok thanks
Jul 10 09:33:44 * ScaredyCat could go for a steampunk case :D
Jul 10 09:33:48 <cesarb> blindcoder: IIRC, to be a mbox file you only need "From "
Jul 10 09:33:55 <cesarb> blindcoder: what follows varies
Jul 10 09:34:02 <blindcoder> cesarb: not according to mutt and file
Jul 10 09:34:10 <blindcoder> cesarb: file then just says "ASCII english text"
Jul 10 09:34:14 <Paladine> hey, just wanted to congratulate the community on the developer release also the viral ads are pretty cool :)
Jul 10 09:34:51 * CM takes a look at the Steampunk page in the wiki
Jul 10 09:35:08 <aloril> blindcoder: hmm.. maybe some small sed/script job needed: "From arachnid at notdot.net  Sun Jul  1 11:33:35 2007"
Jul 10 09:35:12 <blindcoder> cesarb: from 'man mbox': "A postmark line consists of the four characters "From", followed by a space  character,  followed  by  the  message’s  envelope  sender address, followed by whitespace, and followed by a time stamp. This line is often called From_ line."
Jul 10 09:35:29 <blindcoder> aloril: yeah, and sometimes it's just random a-z0-9 characters
Jul 10 09:35:37 <woglinde> he blindcoder
Jul 10 09:35:41 <blindcoder> hey woglinde :)
Jul 10 09:35:55 <woglinde> blindcoder do you want play with the neo?
Jul 10 09:36:02 <blindcoder> woglinde: sure
Jul 10 09:36:15 <woglinde> okay let us meeting somewhere
Jul 10 09:36:16 <blindcoder> woglinde: but not willing to pump out 700 USD now and then again in october :(
Jul 10 09:36:24 <aloril> ah, yes simple sed job should be, they have s/@/ at / ;-)
Jul 10 09:36:37 <CM> Paladine: Ordered one yet? ;)
Jul 10 09:36:47 <blindcoder> woglinde: #neo1973-germany 
Jul 10 09:36:57 <woglinde> *sigh*
Jul 10 09:36:59 <blindcoder> woglinde: or do you already have one o_SO
Jul 10 09:37:03 * aloril blames spammers running address harvesting bots
Jul 10 09:37:08 <woglinde> I have one ;)
Jul 10 09:37:11 <jpcass> aloril: thanks, i'll chase it up and hope my order was registered...
Jul 10 09:37:11 <blindcoder> WAH
Jul 10 09:37:16 <Paladine> CM, no I am not a developer, I will be getting one in October though when the main release happens
Jul 10 09:37:27 <CM> :)
Jul 10 09:37:34 <Paladine> have been following the "project" for a long time though and promoting it to as many people as I can :)
Jul 10 09:37:46 <blindcoder> woglinde: okay, name the time and place :)
Jul 10 09:38:00 <CM> Paladine: I know, I've seen you in here before
Jul 10 09:38:35 <Paladine> I loved the iPhone viral ad for openmoko :)
Jul 10 09:38:41 <Paladine> the rotting apple
Jul 10 09:38:43 <Paladine> classic
Jul 10 09:39:41 <Paladine> I hope all you dev types have a lot of fun with the first release, seems to be a lot of energy around the project at the moment
Jul 10 09:41:16 <CM> Paladine: Not sure exactly how many orders have been placed at the store, but it's over 500 for sure
Jul 10 09:41:17 <Paladine> I saw a post somewhere on the world wide wonder where someone suggested developing some code to make the phone vibrate when the touchscreen keyoard is used, excellent idea I think
Jul 10 09:41:37 <Paladine> CM, the .com website is very slow obviously getting masses of traffic
Jul 10 09:41:45 <CM> Paladine: Got a link to that rotting apple ad?
Jul 10 09:41:48 <woglinde> paladine you can make a lot of crazy thinks
Jul 10 09:41:52 <woglinde> things
Jul 10 09:42:02 <Paladine> sec cm Iwill find it again
Jul 10 09:42:15 <Paladine> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=POiNqP4savI
Jul 10 09:43:41 <CM> Paladine: Hehe
Jul 10 09:43:43 <Paladine> but in all serious, this is a great day for open source and indeed for consumers, I think FIC and OpenMoko (the company) are going to go from strength to strength
Jul 10 09:43:47 <CM> Thanks btw
Jul 10 09:44:10 <Paladine> np, I am a staunt apple hater (apple products are banned from my house) so that ad really appealed to me :)
Jul 10 09:45:21 <Paladine> Ithink in October, there are going to be a lot of worried companies out there.  I expect they thought it would be a project that bore no fruit, now they are going to be worried about just popular it might be
Jul 10 09:45:22 <Stephmw> Even if you dislike Apple the company and the products, you do have to admit that their UI usability if very good.
Jul 10 09:45:34 <Stephmw> *is
Jul 10 09:45:35 <woglinde> paladine we will see
Jul 10 09:45:55 <woglinde> paladine there are more devices planned beside the neo
Jul 10 09:45:57 <Paladine> Stephmw, yeah but they stole that originally from Gem ;)
Jul 10 09:46:02 <Stephmw> woglinde: I noticed a few more J2ME queries overnight, thanks for helping to answer them :)
Jul 10 09:46:17 <Paladine> woglinde, yeah I know, I am looking forward to it, hoping they move onto other platforms too and not just phones
Jul 10 09:46:23 <Stephmw> Paladine: meh, who cares? :D I like stuff that's easy to use
Jul 10 09:47:27 <woglinde> stephmw hm there are now serval people who wants put afford in the gtk port of phonme
Jul 10 09:47:38 <woglinde> and midp too
Jul 10 09:47:53 <aloril> blindcoder: this should work: sed 's/^From \(.*\) at \(.*\)$/From \1@\2/'
Jul 10 09:48:04 <CM> Paladine: The next device is probably some kind of mediaplayer
Jul 10 09:48:05 <webjames[bed]> i like the compiz fusion interface, although it looks showy, it also adds some helpful use ability features
Jul 10 09:48:15 <aloril> (not tested)
Jul 10 09:48:26 <Paladine> CM, yeah that would be the logical step forward and a valuable one too
Jul 10 09:49:18 <CM> Paladine: Shouldn't say "probably", LaF0rge is already putting code and kernel patches in the svn repo for it :)
Jul 10 09:49:27 <Stephmw> woglinde: I think it's worthwhile starting a wiki topic on Java and/or J2ME
Jul 10 09:49:29 <Paladine> hehehe
Jul 10 09:50:16 <Stephmw> woglinde: did you want to, or shall I?
Jul 10 09:50:28 <Paladine> there is so much good about this project, it makes me very happy :) I have been fighting corporate megalomaniacs for years
Jul 10 09:50:39 <Paladine> even the decision to have an international price, great news for us brits
Jul 10 09:50:59 <Paladine> we are sick of paying 2x as much for our devices compared to north america and europe
Jul 10 09:51:01 <webjames> Paladine, here here
Jul 10 09:51:05 <CM> Paladine: Did you read that OpenMoko is it's own company now, allthough still owned by FIC?
Jul 10 09:51:12 <woglinde> stephmw go on ;)
Jul 10 09:51:15 <Paladine> CM, yeah I read about it last week
Jul 10 09:51:23 <CM> Good news too
Jul 10 09:51:26 <Paladine> thats what I meant above by OpenMoko (the company)
Jul 10 09:51:54 <woglinde> stephwm I am thinking about to help the phoneme gtk port too
Jul 10 09:52:20 <Paladine> hopefully some of the guys who have put so much work into it from the community will have some job opportunities coming in soon
Jul 10 09:53:12 <Paladine> andI won't have to camp outside an Apple store like an idiot for a week before release ;)
Jul 10 09:53:49 <woglinde> paladine and than pay 2500 bucks?
Jul 10 09:53:55 <woglinde> thats idiotic
Jul 10 09:53:57 <woglinde> *g*
Jul 10 09:54:12 <Paladine> wog, yeah I tried to point that out to several iBoys but they didn't get it
Jul 10 09:54:31 <Paladine> "Its only 600 bucks blah blah blah..."
Jul 10 09:54:37 <Paladine> some people eh?
Jul 10 09:55:17 <Paladine> I love the packaging for the Neo Advanced definitely has geek appeal to it :)
Jul 10 09:55:20 * CM did have an apple powerbook in 1991 (dads, but I used it)
Jul 10 09:56:59 <blindcoder> 'only' 600 bucks
Jul 10 09:57:38 <Paladine> blindcoder, yeah I was trying to explain to them that with the minimum cost of contract with AT&T made that $2500 but they just didn't seem to understand that part
Jul 10 09:58:08 <blindcoder> Paladine: yeah, andy ou can't put your own programs on it, too :)
Jul 10 09:58:30 <woglinde> blindcoder he ajax priogramms are great programms
Jul 10 09:58:51 <blindcoder> woglinde: can't say I'm much of a friend of ajax
Jul 10 09:58:57 <Paladine> blind, the only program Iwould want to put on an iPhone would be one that is showing on 50 32" widescreen CRT TVs dropped onto the iPhone from a great height ;)
Jul 10 09:59:11 <blindcoder> Paladine: hehehe
Jul 10 10:00:18 <woglinde> stephmw hm oh the first gtk patches are from the openmoko-java-project guys
Jul 10 10:01:15 <Paladine> well I better go, I have a 19 month old son demanding my attention.  Just wanted to pop in and congratulate you all on a job well done, long may it continue :)
Jul 10 10:01:29 <woglinde> bye paladine
Jul 10 10:01:34 <Paladine> have fun :)
Jul 10 10:02:33 <rschuste2> hi all
Jul 10 10:03:18 <rschuste2> which uboot revision is known to accept the current set patches and what do I need to add to my local.conf in order to use a certain uboot revision?
Jul 10 10:03:18 <aloril> rschuste2: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.)
Jul 10 10:03:28 <andylockran> are people having more luck with the mokomakefile today?
Jul 10 10:03:58 <CM> andylockran: Build for me yesterday, but I haven't tried today
Jul 10 10:04:10 <CM> s/ild/ilt/
Jul 10 10:04:11 <apt> CM meant: andylockran: Built for me yesterday, but I haven't tried today
Jul 10 10:04:11 <rschuste2> with 4ef218f6fdf8d747f4589da5252b004e7d2c2876 it does not work
Jul 10 10:04:30 * rschuste2 has: doesnt work
Jul 10 10:04:51 <CM> rschuste2: They discussed this in #oe a while ago
Jul 10 10:05:19 <Stephmw> hey rschuste2 
Jul 10 10:05:37 <Stephmw> woglinde: nice :)
Jul 10 10:05:53 <Stephmw> woglinde: which mailing list?
Jul 10 10:08:24 <woglinde> http://projects.openmoko.org/projects/java-pkg/
Jul 10 10:08:37 <woglinde> http://forums.java.net/jive/thread.jspa?threadID=21591&tstart=0
Jul 10 10:09:45 <Stephmw> cheers
Jul 10 10:10:09 <woglinde> hm I looked a the patches
Jul 10 10:10:18 <woglinde> I think I have done more
Jul 10 10:10:23 <woglinde> but have to check at home
Jul 10 10:10:26 <woglinde> *g+
Jul 10 10:10:30 <Stephmw> ;)
Jul 10 10:10:43 <Stephmw> I'd love those developers to be a little more vocal on irc
Jul 10 10:11:47 <aloril> sizeof(P1_Owners)/rt_ticket_numbers > 20
Jul 10 10:13:06 <jgm> aloril: shouldn't that be the other way around?
Jul 10 10:13:13 <blindcoder> yeah, thought so, too
Jul 10 10:13:21 <aloril> jgm: hehe, yeah
Jul 10 10:13:47 <jgm> I can see everyone fighting over their 5% of their Neo :)
Jul 10 10:13:59 <Stephmw> woglinde: no trace of java posts on the openmoko-specific lists :(
Jul 10 10:15:03 <woglinde> stephem hm
Jul 10 10:15:07 <woglinde> ;)
Jul 10 10:15:15 <woglinde> they aare a little bit shy
Jul 10 10:15:40 <Stephmw> :)
Jul 10 10:18:16 <ScaredyCat> is it me or is that a pretty freaking obvious error?
Jul 10 10:18:17 <ScaredyCat> #ifndef __USBDCORE_H__
Jul 10 10:18:18 <ScaredyCat> #define __USBDCORE_H__
Jul 10 10:18:31 <ScaredyCat> no endif?
Jul 10 10:18:44 <jgm> ScaredyCat: check the end of the file
Jul 10 10:19:14 <ScaredyCat> k...
Jul 10 10:19:20 <jgm> It's commonly used to avoid problems where you include the same file multiple times in different .c files, so you only really include it once regardless of how many times it turns up in #include
Jul 10 10:19:23 <ScaredyCat> but it's still in error
Jul 10 10:20:15 <jgm> In that case you'd better get re-writing pretty much every .h out there :)
Jul 10 10:20:26 <pengwen> sup with openmoko.com?
Jul 10 10:20:38 <Stephmw> pengwen: heavy load since Monday :)
Jul 10 10:21:04 <pengwen> and its not even on slashdot :)
Jul 10 10:21:12 <Stephmw> it was yesterday
Jul 10 10:23:10 * blindcoder admits to having learned about it from that post
Jul 10 10:23:11 <ScaredyCat> jgm: the compile not the .h
Jul 10 10:25:36 <jgm> ScaredyCat: not sure what you're saying.  The #ifdef/define combo ensure that the entire .h file is only parsed once during compilation, so things like typedefs are only actioned once (otherwise it would through a compiler error)
Jul 10 10:25:50 <jgm> s/through/throw/g
Jul 10 10:25:52 <apt> jgm meant: ScaredyCat: not sure what you're saying.  The #ifdef/define combo ensure that the entire .h file is only parsed once during compilation, so things like typedefs are only actioned once (otherwise it would throw a compiler error)
Jul 10 10:25:57 <ScaredyCat>  In file included from ../common/udc.c:3:
Jul 10 10:25:58 <ScaredyCat> | /home/moko/build/tmp/work/armv4t-linux/uboot-gta01-1.2.0+svnnow-r11_4ef218f6fdf8d747f4589da5252b004e7d2c2876_0_2348/git/include/usbdcore.h:680:2: error: #endif without #if
Jul 10 10:25:58 <ScaredyCat> | make[2]: *** [../common/udc.o] Error 1
Jul 10 10:26:15 <ScaredyCat> that's what I'm on about...
Jul 10 10:26:29 <woglinde> put #endif in the end
Jul 10 10:26:50 <Stephmw> I'm betting on a mismatched #if/#endif in the source somewhere
Jul 10 10:26:56 <ScaredyCat> yes...
Jul 10 10:26:58 <ScaredyCat> I know
Jul 10 10:27:06 <jgm> But it isn't the one that you pointed out
Jul 10 10:28:14 <jgm> That stuff compiled fine for me, what are you compiling on?
Jul 10 10:28:40 <ScaredyCat> it's an extra #endif at the end methinks
Jul 10 10:28:55 <ScaredyCat> void udc_ctrl(enum usbd_event event, int param);
Jul 10 10:28:55 <ScaredyCat> #endif
Jul 10 10:28:55 <ScaredyCat> #endif
Jul 10 10:30:15 <ScaredyCat> on x86 for arm
Jul 10 10:31:03 <jgm> Interesting, the end of that file for me is like this:
Jul 10 10:31:09 <jgm> enum usbd_event {
Jul 10 10:31:12 <jgm>         UDC_CTRL_PULLUP_ENABLE,
Jul 10 10:31:14 <jgm>         UDC_CTRL_500mA_ENABLE,
Jul 10 10:31:16 <jgm> };
Jul 10 10:31:20 <jgm> void udc_ctrl(enum usbd_event event, int param);
Jul 10 10:31:22 <jgm> #endif
Jul 10 10:31:24 <jgm> i.e. only one #endif
Jul 10 10:31:58 <andylockran> just had an idea - want to hear your views on it.
Jul 10 10:32:28 <andylockran> How easy would it be to make a repo of openmoko software, so that you could clone your phone apps to be the same as another user. (or to be used as a bcakup)
Jul 10 10:32:38 <ScaredyCat> yes, just took the other one out jgm .. but svn needs updating 
Jul 10 10:32:59 <jgm> Odd thing is that it looks like I have the same repo version as you
Jul 10 10:33:15 <jgm> /build/tmp/work/armv4t-linux/uboot-gta01-1.2.0+svnnow-r11_e80955f07de03fef0196353e77534b2300193c1c_0_2348/
Jul 10 10:33:59 <jgm> andylockran: the repo (or distribution) idea is kicking around, the backup thing is more interesting (although if it's just packages then you're not talking much more than a dpkg -l)
Jul 10 10:34:37 <ScaredyCat> 4ef218f6fdf8d747f4589da5252b004e7d2c2876_0_2348
Jul 10 10:34:58 <jgm> Isn't the repo number just the last bit though (i.e. 2348)?
Jul 10 10:35:01 <andylockran> jgm: true - but I guess it'd be sort of like a wordpress theme - also if the devs are storming ahead with their development, i'd like to be able to quickly sync my neo with a dev whose working in the right direction for me?
Jul 10 10:35:41 <notserpe> ls
Jul 10 10:35:58 * SpeedEvil stabs connections that fall over. Anything happen in the last 6 hours?
Jul 10 10:36:10 <jgm> andylockran: so per-developer repos then?
Jul 10 10:36:22 <jgm> Trouble with them is getting the devs to keep them up-to-date, as packaging can be a pain
Jul 10 10:37:01 <ljp> jgm: I am getting the same error
Jul 10 10:37:22 <jgm> Let me update and see if I get it too...
Jul 10 10:37:27 <andylockran> yeah, there are probably holes in my idea.. just thought it'd be a good way for fast customisation (at least for the end-user)
Jul 10 10:38:26 <jgm> It's a good idea, you'll just need to convince the devs to build the infrastructure (or set it up yourself and let them publish to it)
Jul 10 10:39:00 <aloril> yesterday record: 343 nicks (318 nicks at 2007-07-08 and 289 nicks at 2007-07-06)
Jul 10 10:39:07 <andylockran> be something good to look into
Jul 10 10:41:28 <Agrajag-> andylockran: just get people to use git or monotone
Jul 10 10:47:23 <aloril> SpeedEvil: I guess not much here, except talk, ordering page still up
Jul 10 10:47:45 <andylockran> Agrajag-: I'm pretty new to environment - so am batting around ideas rather than packages - but thanks for the heads up - I'll take a look.
Jul 10 10:48:04 <aloril> SpeedEvil: skepticism about board update idea from GTA01 to GTA02
Jul 10 10:48:35 <andylockran> aloril: is that probably a no-no then?
Jul 10 10:48:51 <ScaredyCat> and free gta02's to all who have been here for over 6 hours.
Jul 10 10:49:11 <aloril> andylockran: more like not worth of it, most of price is in board anyway (except for screen which isn't that easy to detach and attach)
Jul 10 10:49:53 <aloril> ScaredyCat: hehe, here is better one "I received my Neo1973 already!" ;-)
Jul 10 10:50:05 <ScaredyCat> :)
Jul 10 10:51:03 <blindcoder> /bin/sh: line 2: quilt: command not found
Jul 10 10:51:04 <blindcoder> hmm
Jul 10 10:51:10 <blindcoder> now wtf does that belong to?
Jul 10 10:51:22 <woglinde> ah
Jul 10 10:51:23 <ScaredyCat> womens institue
Jul 10 10:51:24 <woglinde> quilt
Jul 10 10:51:34 <ScaredyCat> institute
Jul 10 10:51:47 <jpcass> surely board upgrade is not so expensive
Jul 10 10:51:50 <blindcoder> eww, one of hannes' packages
Jul 10 10:51:53 <blindcoder> probably horribly outdated
Jul 10 10:52:23 * hrw has a way to give people sign that phones are out of order - first hits for 'neo1973 buy' are my blog ;D
Jul 10 10:52:25 <jpcass> would have thought board cost <30% total
Jul 10 10:52:43 <blindcoder> hmm, 0.32 in repository 0.46 actual
Jul 10 10:52:43 <aloril> ScaredyCat: actually, I have even better one: "I received my GTA02 prototype!" ;-)
Jul 10 10:52:52 <SpeedEvil> out of order?
Jul 10 10:53:07 <ScaredyCat> my gta01 has wifi though aloril ;)
Jul 10 10:53:29 <aloril> SpeedEvil: latest number is 867 (2686-1820+1)
Jul 10 10:53:48 <aloril> SpeedEvil: so could be that first 1000 phones have been sold already
Jul 10 10:54:04 <SpeedEvil> I'd imagine it's probable.
Jul 10 10:54:07 <ScaredyCat> don't forget that's just a ticket number...
Jul 10 10:54:15 * SpeedEvil wishes he had cash.
Jul 10 10:54:21 <SpeedEvil> :(
Jul 10 10:54:27 <aloril> SpeedEvil: also seems that people are getting "AutoReply: OpenMoko direct order" -mails more than 24h later
Jul 10 10:54:30 <blindcoder> so now the devs are just going to the caimans with their 300.000$ :)
Jul 10 10:54:42 <ScaredyCat> for the rt system, any new mails sent generate a new number...even if it's not an order
Jul 10 10:54:43 <rschuste2> SpeedEvil: for the time being use qemu with the mokomakefile
Jul 10 10:54:45 <SpeedEvil> I've got all the stuff to start attaching hardware to it...
Jul 10 10:54:50 <aloril> so there are double order numbers
Jul 10 10:54:56 <SpeedEvil> Hardware doesn't work so well with qemu.
Jul 10 10:55:37 <woglinde> scaredycat right
Jul 10 10:56:12 <dcordes> ScaredyCat, gta01 with wifi.. using usb?
Jul 10 10:56:25 <aloril> ScaredyCat: how many mails outside orders though?
Jul 10 10:56:32 <ScaredyCat> it was a joke dcordes...
Jul 10 10:56:38 <dcordes> ah ok
Jul 10 10:57:25 <aloril> ScaredyCat: even better but 'impossible' to be true: "I have GTA03 prototype!"
Jul 10 10:57:36 <aloril> GTA02 prototype is possible, it exists
Jul 10 10:57:46 <ScaredyCat>  * SpeedEvil stabs connections that fall over. Anything happen in the last 6 hours?
Jul 10 10:57:47 <ScaredyCat> <ScaredyCat> and free gta02's to all who have been here for over 6 hours.
Jul 10 10:57:56 <Stephmw> woglinde: ok, I've started, http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Java
Jul 10 10:58:07 <Stephmw> woglinde: please feel free to jump in and change things :)
Jul 10 10:58:15 <jgm> ScaredyCat: yep so with an update for today's code that additional #endif shows up and needs to be removed before you can compile again
Jul 10 10:58:24 <andylockran> ScaredyCat: free gta02s for the longest stayers on IRC
Jul 10 10:58:39 <ScaredyCat> aloril: have I not shown you pictures of the gta09 umpc?
Jul 10 10:58:47 <aloril> ScaredyCat: ah, I read that as "it has shipped or promised or .. not in as have it in hand" ;-)
Jul 10 10:59:21 <SpeedEvil> I vote for free GTA02s for those with highest wiki edits.
Jul 10 10:59:25 <ScaredyCat> jgm: see - I knew I wasn't mad
Jul 10 10:59:34 <jgm> Yep
Jul 10 10:59:43 * blindcoder starts his wikipedia grammar/spelling correcting script
Jul 10 10:59:50 * blindcoder gains an instant 35217 wiki edits
Jul 10 11:00:14 <andylockran> uboot keeps failing, any ideas why?  -originally on do_quilt, but now on do_compile
Jul 10 11:00:15 <jgm> That said, it doesn't compile after that either.  No rule to make u-boot.udfu
Jul 10 11:00:32 <ScaredyCat> yeah, I have that too
Jul 10 11:00:46 <ScaredyCat> just double checking I didn't cock up...
Jul 10 11:00:53 <andylockran> jgm have you just found the solution to it-
Jul 10 11:00:53 <ScaredyCat> .. rebuilding
Jul 10 11:01:29 <jgm> Nope
Jul 10 11:01:32 <ScaredyCat> this is the thing with building from trunk :)
Jul 10 11:01:48 <Stephmw> hrw: you're welcome to edit that Java wiki topic too
Jul 10 11:02:00 <andylockran> what version of glibc does it give you?
Jul 10 11:02:05 * ScaredyCat edits it out
Jul 10 11:02:15 <hrw> Stephmw: ?
Jul 10 11:03:19 <ScaredyCat> I really should have done this in a vm, then I could just move it all to a better box...
Jul 10 11:03:23 <andylockran> well that's dead then..
Jul 10 11:04:12 <andylockran> has anyone successfully build the mokomakefile since 1200GMT on the 10th July?
Jul 10 11:04:30 <andylockran> i mean 9th ...
Jul 10 11:06:48 <andylockran> ScaredyCat: at what stage does yours fail?
Jul 10 11:06:59 <ScaredyCat> same as jpm
Jul 10 11:07:17 <aloril> has anybody used GPRS with Neo1973 yet?
Jul 10 11:07:32 <woglinde> aloril hm
Jul 10 11:07:36 <hrw> aloril: pavelm long time ago
Jul 10 11:07:44 <woglinde> hrw ah I wasnt sure
Jul 10 11:07:55 <woglinde> that it was pavel
Jul 10 11:07:56 <aloril> hrw: OK, thanks, either missed it or forgot it
Jul 10 11:09:20 <aloril> found it: 2007-06-01 15:46:05 <pavelm>    lrak: It can make calls, but gprs is very unreliable.
Jul 10 11:11:25 <aloril> and: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Manually_using_GPRS
Jul 10 11:12:57 <aloril> (and this too: 2007-03-19 14:38:37 <pavelm>    ...I got gprs to work on openmoko.. it is now in wiki ("Manually using GPRS". )
Jul 10 11:15:06 <aloril> xkr47: hehe: <xkr47>     neo is like buying your soul back from the devil.. you lose the "you can have anything" deal but you are free
Jul 10 11:15:19 <woglinde> lol
Jul 10 11:15:38 <blindcoder> hehe
Jul 10 11:15:46 <blindcoder> sure I can have anything
Jul 10 11:15:50 <blindcoder> just need to create it first ;)
Jul 10 11:16:10 <Elrond> blindcoder - Exactly...
Jul 10 11:16:57 <blindcoder> which is basically how I used to play 'clonk', 'settlers' and 'colonisation'. Play alone, just for the sake of building stuff and watching it work :)
Jul 10 11:17:07 <bitplane> any tutorials for compiling apps for the openmoko emulator in windows?
Jul 10 11:17:08 <aloril> bitplane: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.)
Jul 10 11:17:15 <Elrond> And it looks like the project gets a lot of publicity... Yesterday I was asked by a friend about what I would do in here. ;o)
Jul 10 11:17:40 <blindcoder> Elrond: meh, I've already met two people here I know from other channels/networks
Jul 10 11:17:59 <blindcoder> I swear, it's worse than the plague
Jul 10 11:18:15 <Elrond> blindcoder - Well, they found my nick on some subversion repos. And asked me about it. ;)
Jul 10 11:18:22 <blindcoder> hehe
Jul 10 11:18:33 <woglinde> elrond *g*
Jul 10 11:18:46 <blindcoder> Elrond: just like going to the local geekfest and suddenly having someone say: Hey, you're blindcoder? From $FOOPROJECT?
Jul 10 11:18:52 <blindcoder> I swear, it scares the hell out of me every time
Jul 10 11:19:00 <aloril> hehe, strong opinions: http://labs.trolltech.com/blogs/2007/07/09/meanwhile-back-at-the-ranch/
Jul 10 11:19:09 <CM> Lots of known developers in here
Jul 10 11:19:12 <aloril> (seen earlier in this channel already)
Jul 10 11:19:33 <hrw> aloril: last sentence is nice
Jul 10 11:20:05 <Elrond> blindcoder - Yeah, exactly. My sedond question was: "How did you stumble across _that_ repos?" ;-)
Jul 10 11:20:40 <Fatal> aloril: that's just sad (all the fanboy comments)
Jul 10 11:23:07 * aloril about pavelm and gprs: I had forgotten it, I remember now that page, maybe that last comment changed my mental status about GRPS to "not yet really working"
Jul 10 11:24:17 <aloril> so... rephrasing: anybody got reliable GPRS connection? (say more than 1h and more than 1MB transmittetd)
Jul 10 11:24:27 <blindcoder> okay, what the fuck is the greenphone?
Jul 10 11:24:31 <blindcoder> this is the first I ever heard about it
Jul 10 11:24:57 <Stephmw> hrw: I've added a Java section to the wiki, you'd expressed an interest in the past ;)
Jul 10 11:24:58 <Fatal> a qtopia based phone, been around for over a year iirc
Jul 10 11:25:03 <Stephmw> aye
Jul 10 11:25:11 <aloril> its most open phone after Neo1973
Jul 10 11:25:15 <Stephmw> it was on slashdot and linuxdevices a few times
Jul 10 11:25:25 <aloril> some parts of it are closed, see http://trolltech.com/products/qtopia/greenphone/greenphonesdk
Jul 10 11:25:55 <aloril> also at bootup it says reportedly something like "this is not a phone", ie. its meant as developers device, not as mass market device
Jul 10 11:26:12 <CM> Expensive thing too, as you can see in the comments
Jul 10 11:26:24 <aloril> while Neo1973 GTA02 is meant as mass market device (actually originally GTA01B* was meant to be mass market device too)
Jul 10 11:26:37 <mdt> trolltech builds that device for marketing purpose. in fact they want to sell their embedded qt, called qtopia
Jul 10 11:26:58 <aloril> can you make answering machine inside Greenphone for example?
Jul 10 11:27:39 <aloril> (ie.. play message to caller and record message from him/her)
Jul 10 11:27:40 <mdt> aloril you mean automatically answer calls, play audio and record?
Jul 10 11:27:45 <blindcoder> I see
Jul 10 11:27:52 <mdt> yes, i think you can do so. 
Jul 10 11:27:56 <aloril> that can be done in Neo1973
Jul 10 11:28:46 <mdt> problem with the greenphone is the hardware which is in no way documented by trolltech. they are interested in qtopia application developers only.
Jul 10 11:29:12 <mdt> if qtopia does not support your idea you are probably lost
Jul 10 11:30:04 <mdt> trolltech wants to sell qtopia to phone vendors. motorola already used qtopia on a phone
Jul 10 11:30:20 <SpeedEvil> qtopia is used on several million devices
Jul 10 11:30:25 <SpeedEvil> 15 models of phone.
Jul 10 11:30:27 <aloril> anyway, one of main reasons for me is that its Qtopia, not X11
Jul 10 11:30:28 <SpeedEvil> IIRC
Jul 10 11:30:37 * SpeedEvil edited the qtopia wiki page.
Jul 10 11:30:38 <Elrond> qtopia could be ported to the neo, right?
Jul 10 11:30:51 <mdt> aloril, what do you mean?
Jul 10 11:31:11 <mdt> better port openmoko to greenphone ;)
Jul 10 11:31:24 <Elrond> ... of course not the "community edition", because it doesn't have source for the base libraries.
Jul 10 11:31:29 <mdt> the hardware isn't that bad
Jul 10 11:31:33 <aloril> mdt: most Linux GUI apps need porting, not just recompile (and some adjustments for small screen size/touch screen input)
Jul 10 11:31:52 <Elrond> Anyway, I'm off for 1.7 hours, $work
Jul 10 11:32:11 <mdt> qoptia is a plain port of qt to small-devices. 
Jul 10 11:32:22 <mdt> i agree with you. i don't like X/gtl either
Jul 10 11:32:27 <mdt> gtl->gtk
Jul 10 11:32:36 <mdt> but qt isn't a better aproach
Jul 10 11:32:39 <bitplane> is there gl support at all?
Jul 10 11:32:50 <aloril> mdt: doesn't Qtopia bang framebuffer directly instead of using X11?
Jul 10 11:33:03 <mdt> yes, but with a lot of overhead.
Jul 10 11:33:18 <aloril> so any X11 app would need to be ported ...
Jul 10 11:33:28 <mdt> if you like you can throw away x11 under gtk and use directfb. this way you have the same as qtopia
Jul 10 11:33:28 <aloril> (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Talk:MokoMakefile]] [[Java]] [[Group_Order]] [[Wishlist:Text_Input]] [[Steampunk]] [[Main_Page/it]] [[Buying_Interest_List]] [[Category:Neo1973_Hardware/it]] [[S3C2410_Steppingstone]] [[S3C2410_Steppingstone/it]] [[User:Milo]] [[User:Milo/en]] and other changes
Jul 10 11:34:02 <mdt> aloril, i dont think a simple port of a linux app to a phone will be usable
Jul 10 11:34:26 <blindcoder> depends on the app
Jul 10 11:34:28 <aloril> mdt: I *want* X11 ;-)
Jul 10 11:34:33 * ewon also wants X11
Jul 10 11:34:40 <ewon> an awful lot of Linux apps also want X11
Jul 10 11:34:43 <blindcoder> I'm quite sure that gpsdrive will easily work
Jul 10 11:34:59 <aloril> mdt: also can you install debian/ubuntu/fedora/etc.. on Greenphone?
Jul 10 11:35:04 <mdt> aloril2, what for?
Jul 10 11:35:07 <Fatal> I hope someone ports maemomapper <3 :)
Jul 10 11:35:22 <mdt> aloril2, they habe ipkg on the greenphone but non-working.
Jul 10 11:35:26 <jgm> Made a couple of hacks to the build but still can't get openmoko-devel-image up and running.  Think that we'll need to wait a while for some of the additional commits to show up before it works
Jul 10 11:35:52 <aloril> mdt: its not "what for", its "can you"? answer tells something about how open hardware is
Jul 10 11:36:18 <blindcoder> well, you probably can't due to memore restriction
Jul 10 11:36:31 <rschuste2> regarding QT/Trolltech: I remember a guy running around at the OpenMoko talk at LinuxTag asking for people taking part in a lottery to win a greenphone ... 
Jul 10 11:36:35 <blindcoder> memory restrictions
Jul 10 11:36:36 <mdt> aloril, :D you are right. i think you could put an x11 on it because it has a linux fb
Jul 10 11:38:01 <aloril> mdt: about X11: in addition to huge potential app base, you can also display app running on phone at PC and other way around
Jul 10 11:38:10 <mdt> aloril, but x11 is not the right question for openess. more interesting is the hardware (like gsm-chip, touch-screen, keyboard, vibrator, usb...) and the flashing process and the like
Jul 10 11:38:21 <aloril> maybe even use PC GUI over GPRS using FreeNX 
Jul 10 11:38:50 <aloril> mdt: yes, that is about how open hardware is
Jul 10 11:39:06 <aloril> mdt: so I see problems in both software and hardware side
Jul 10 11:40:51 <mdt> aloril, for me the greenphone was the first working playground for implementing phone software from ground up with my ideas. nothing more. compared to the greenphone the neo is currently not deliverde ( :D ), has no camera and has no keypad.
Jul 10 11:41:02 <ewon> who the hell wants a camera
Jul 10 11:41:07 <andylockran> not i
Jul 10 11:41:13 <andylockran> I have a camera for that :p
Jul 10 11:41:16 <mdt> and i dont need x11
Jul 10 11:41:18 <Stephmw> the _option_ of a camera would be useful
Jul 10 11:41:24 <ewon> most of us are pros, and having a camera on the moko would mean we couldn't take it to work
Jul 10 11:41:37 <mdt> dont get lost in what you or customers want or don't want...
Jul 10 11:41:41 * aloril has separate camera and I want touch screen more than keyboard
Jul 10 11:41:43 <andylockran> plus - i'm sure you can get a usb camera if you're desperate
Jul 10 11:41:48 <aloril> and I can always get bluetooth keyboard ;-)
Jul 10 11:41:51 <andylockran> in the same way the t68i had that clip-on camera
Jul 10 11:41:56 <Stephmw> andylockran: no, you can't. usb is unpowered
Jul 10 11:41:59 <SpeedEvil> Camera, designed properly can be pulled.
Jul 10 11:42:06 <Ycros> I would want a camera
Jul 10 11:42:08 <andylockran> you can get externally powerer cameras..
Jul 10 11:42:08 <SpeedEvil> Stephmw: yehs you can - power wedge
Jul 10 11:42:24 <andylockran> or a big battery in a rucksack...
Jul 10 11:42:27 <mdt> :D wow the camer question seems to be important to you ;)
Jul 10 11:42:45 <SpeedEvil> Cameras are not only for taking pictures to show people.
Jul 10 11:42:47 <andylockran> i'd rather have a rfid sensor..
Jul 10 11:42:54 <aloril> touch screen is important for me
Jul 10 11:43:03 <SpeedEvil> andylockran: there are dozens of different standards.
Jul 10 11:43:04 * andylockran likes making calls
Jul 10 11:43:19 * Stephmw wants his v12
Jul 10 11:43:21 <Stephmw> ~v12
Jul 10 11:43:21 <SpeedEvil> Cameras are also useful for capturing data.
Jul 10 11:43:31 <apt> v12 is probably the next must-have in the Neo1973, http://www.ultimatestupidity.com/pics/1/diesel/
Jul 10 11:43:41 <Stephmw> ~botsnack
Jul 10 11:43:41 <apt> thanks, Stephmw
Jul 10 11:43:53 <SpeedEvil> Barcodes, price-labels, stuff you're thinking of buying, ...
Jul 10 11:43:56 <andylockran> SpeedEvil: yeah, i understand the standards thing..  I guess I'll just have to get whatever standard my local supermarket use
Jul 10 11:43:58 <SpeedEvil> All is just fine at VGA
Jul 10 11:44:05 <andylockran> SpeedEvil: true..
Jul 10 11:44:29 <Stephmw> SpeedEvil: currently have an incident lightmeter idea in the works ;)
Jul 10 11:44:41 <Stephmw> SpeedEvil: not at all accurate, but ok for a quick histogram
Jul 10 11:44:56 * aloril wonders if Trolltech will officially support Neo1973 with Qtopia at some point ..
Jul 10 11:45:14 <rschuste2> a camera would also be nice for taking pictures of street names while you are mapping for openstreetmap ...
Jul 10 11:45:25 <SpeedEvil> that too.
Jul 10 11:45:33 <blindcoder> Stephmw: I'm happy with a v2 in a 264 kg two-wheel vehicle :D
Jul 10 11:45:40 <SpeedEvil> I found it really handy when shopping for building materials.
Jul 10 11:45:43 <andylockran> how many people plan on mapping for openstreetmap - that's something I am _very_ interested in
Jul 10 11:45:51 <SpeedEvil> Wander round large shed, taking pictures.
Jul 10 11:45:58 <SpeedEvil> shed= DIY store
Jul 10 11:46:07 <SpeedEvil> pictures include pricelabel and object
Jul 10 11:46:22 <SpeedEvil> wander round competing shed, and directly compare.
Jul 10 11:46:33 <rschuste2> andylockran: OSM people will likely be interested in how good the GPS receiver is
Jul 10 11:46:40 <blindcoder> apt: okay, now why is htere google ads for phone sex on that site?
Jul 10 11:46:44 <apt> blindcoder: what are you talking about?
Jul 10 11:46:56 <blindcoder> apt: http://www.ultimatestupidity.com/pics/1/diesel/
Jul 10 11:47:00 <andylockran> there's a conference about 5 minutes walk from me by openstreetmap in manchester this week or next
Jul 10 11:47:11 <notserpe> aloril: I love the second response.
Jul 10 11:47:11 <SpeedEvil> Even worked well when I couldn't find some mesh with a price label on it. Take pictures of label on shelf, read number off from phone at checkout.
Jul 10 11:47:25 <Placid> i see there are a lot of people from the UK in here \o/ /o\ \o/
Jul 10 11:47:50 <SpeedEvil> Most US people are asleep now.
Jul 10 11:47:53 <andylockran> this weekend..
Jul 10 11:48:03 <rschuste2> andylockran: currently they prefer devices with some Sirf III chip (whatever that is)
Jul 10 11:48:19 <Placid> SpeedEvil: indeed. thank god. :P
Jul 10 11:48:22 <SpeedEvil> Hammerhead has the potential to be better than SiRF
Jul 10 11:48:26 <SpeedEvil> AIUI
Jul 10 11:48:36 <SpeedEvil> At the moment, with the current driverr, it's about the same.
Jul 10 11:49:51 <ewon> impressive
Jul 10 11:50:11 <SpeedEvil> I'm planning to do a bluetooth voice logger with GPS
Jul 10 11:50:23 <SpeedEvil> which tags a gps track with voice notes
Jul 10 11:50:58 <blindcoder> SpeedEvil: I want to connect the gps output with a map and a video, all taken while riding my motorbike :D
Jul 10 11:51:17 <SpeedEvil> That's harder.
Jul 10 11:51:26 <SpeedEvil> To get quality video.
Jul 10 11:51:30 <mdt> blindcoder, hopefully you bike has a usb-connector ;)
Jul 10 11:51:40 <CM> andylockran: I'm interested in OSM as well. We need some easy to use app for it. :)
Jul 10 11:51:44 <SpeedEvil> You really want to be able to read streetsigns.
Jul 10 11:51:49 <blindcoder> mdt: nothing you can't do with a good soldering iron :D
Jul 10 11:51:56 <mdt> :D
Jul 10 11:51:58 <blindcoder> SpeedEvil: that's what real cameras are for
Jul 10 11:52:18 <SpeedEvil> blindcoder: it's not that simple. You really want multiple cameras to get a panorama.
Jul 10 11:52:24 <andylockran> CM: yeah, I'd love to have the neo before the 26th july.. can't see that happening though.. going on a tour of europe so would be able to get some random mapping done..
Jul 10 11:52:26 <SpeedEvil> Or at least left/right/forward cameras.
Jul 10 11:52:26 <blindcoder> SpeedEvil: why?
Jul 10 11:52:35 <SpeedEvil> To capture streetsigns to the left/right
Jul 10 11:52:36 <blindcoder> SpeedEvil: forward is enough for now
Jul 10 11:52:53 <blindcoder> SpeedEvil: simply because I only have access to one camera :)
Jul 10 11:52:57 <andylockran> why can't google do a deal and let us have their maps...
Jul 10 11:53:05 <blindcoder> it'd be easy to mount three cams on my bike
Jul 10 11:53:15 <woglinde> andylockran hm I fear that before this the date no osm connector for openmoko will be available
Jul 10 11:53:20 <CM> andylockran: Problem is that google doesn't own the maps
Jul 10 11:53:28 <CM> They license them
Jul 10 11:53:28 <blindcoder> mdt: I take it the battery will drain faster than a bathtub with GPS enabled?
Jul 10 11:53:32 <andylockran> and to be honest, when the ordnance survey maps have been created using taxpayers money, I think it's only right we pay for reproduction costs only...
Jul 10 11:53:43 <andylockran> so we should have a good UK mapping system..
Jul 10 11:53:58 <SpeedEvil> andylockran: NS has been spun out and is now financially self-supporting.
Jul 10 11:54:08 <andylockran> NS?
Jul 10 11:54:22 <Linux_Galore_> got to give it to the yeanks they sure know how to put the most cholesterol in your mouth with every bite http://www.ultimatestupidity.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2007/07/baconator.jpg
Jul 10 11:54:40 <Linux_Galore_> yanks*
Jul 10 11:55:01 <mdt> blindcoder, plus camer, plus cpu for compressing, plus storing the stuff... :)
Jul 10 11:55:03 <SpeedEvil> Err
Jul 10 11:55:04 <SpeedEvil> OS
Jul 10 11:55:05 <SpeedEvil> not NS
Jul 10 11:55:19 <blindcoder> mdt: camera is external, not phone
Jul 10 11:55:22 <andylockran> ok
Jul 10 11:55:28 <blindcoder> mdt: I want quality pictures, thankyouverymuch
Jul 10 11:55:36 <andylockran> you'd have thought i'd have worked that out by myself eh?
Jul 10 11:55:37 <blindcoder> a phone with a camera built-in is of no use to me
Jul 10 11:55:50 <lusermgb> having trouble getting to openmoko.com, does anyone know when it'll be up again?
Jul 10 11:55:50 <aloril> lusermgb: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.)
Jul 10 11:55:57 <mdt> blindcoder, we are all different :D
Jul 10 11:56:19 <blindcoder> mdt: yeah, tell that the security guys at $customers and $employee
Jul 10 11:56:36 <SpeedEvil> blindcoder: A camera that can be pulled is quite possible.
Jul 10 11:56:51 <mdt> shure, but what do they say to a gps?
Jul 10 11:57:05 <SpeedEvil> Open the back, pop out the camera module.
Jul 10 11:57:15 <blindcoder> SpeedEvil: that'd be an option
Jul 10 11:57:24 <blindcoder> mdt: what should they say to it?
Jul 10 11:57:41 <SpeedEvil> I suspect most places don't worry about you getting coordinates to accurately lay in mortars for the first round, rather than you having to walk them onto target.
Jul 10 11:57:42 <blindcoder> mdt: it's not like gps coordinates are company secrets
Jul 10 11:58:08 <mdt> blindcoder, do you have to show your phone every day you come to your office? 
Jul 10 11:58:18 <blindcoder> mdt: yeah
Jul 10 11:58:28 <SpeedEvil> mdt: in some companies, cam phone = fired.
Jul 10 11:58:31 <aloril> does Greenphone have separate GSM modem like Neo1973 or is it in same 'space'? it does look like Greenphone does have touch screen though
Jul 10 11:58:42 <blindcoder> mdt: they have put up compartments at the security office for mobile phones to deposit in
Jul 10 11:58:49 <mdt> aloril, no they use a broadcom 2121
Jul 10 11:59:15 <SpeedEvil> mdt: GSM
Jul 10 11:59:27 <mdt> aloril, they use ts & keypad
Jul 10 11:59:37 <mdt> SpeedEvil, ?
Jul 10 11:59:38 <aloril> mdt: ie.. GSM runs under same OS than applications?
Jul 10 11:59:41 <notserpe> blindcoder: if they're that concerned over a camera they should be concerned with you pod-like slurping with the usb and a big microsd card in the phone too.
Jul 10 11:59:49 <SpeedEvil> err - ignore me.
Jul 10 11:59:52 <mdt> aloril, no. same setup as neo
Jul 10 12:00:21 <blindcoder> notserpe: with usb sticks they can search you and find them when leaving company ground
Jul 10 12:00:24 <mdt> aloril, arm-cpu <-> gsm-module uses serial communication, gsm0707 & gsm0710
Jul 10 12:00:26 <SpeedEvil> aloril: that would actually be illegal to sell in the UK - once the first person misused the phone.
Jul 10 12:00:26 * CM wonders when the order numbers go past #3000 :)
Jul 10 12:00:38 <blindcoder> notserpe: with my phone, I make a photo of the latest car design, send it to another phone and delete the pic again
Jul 10 12:00:44 <blindcoder> notserpe: no evidence on leaving company grounds
Jul 10 12:01:04 <CM> blindcoder: You work with cars?
Jul 10 12:01:10 <blindcoder> CM: my customers do
Jul 10 12:01:17 * CM is at the Volvo factory now :P
Jul 10 12:01:18 <mdt> blindcoder, sad that companies don't trust their empoyies...
Jul 10 12:01:30 <aloril> SpeedEvil: not with closed bits for phone ;-) (this seems to claims so: http://trolltech.com/products/qtopia/greenphone/greenphonesdk )
Jul 10 12:01:30 <SpeedEvil> When you can get rich off one pic...
Jul 10 12:01:55 <SpeedEvil> aloril: I mean with unified GSM and application processor with open-source
Jul 10 12:02:00 <blindcoder> CM: I've been working at the Audi factory/technical development facilities
Jul 10 12:02:14 <_diego__> is www.openmoko.com crashed / slashdotted?
Jul 10 12:02:14 <blindcoder> CM: concept cars there in storage
Jul 10 12:02:23 <aloril> SpeedEvil: yeah, but I was assuming greenphone is only partially open-source
Jul 10 12:02:39 <blindcoder> CM: ccars driving around with big blankets over them to prevent overhead photograhy by airplanes and stuff
Jul 10 12:02:39 <CM> blindcoder: Cool. I work with forecast and planning systems
Jul 10 12:02:44 <blindcoder> CM: they _are_ quite paranoid there
Jul 10 12:03:00 <woglinde> greenphone only kernelmodules and a few apps are closed
Jul 10 12:03:16 <CM> blindcoder: For sure. I have the plans up to 2016 of all volvo cars ;)
Jul 10 12:03:36 <blindcoder> CM: hehe, I see you feel my pain :)
Jul 10 12:03:51 <CM> Oh yes.. ;)
Jul 10 12:04:11 <mdt> woglinde, and a little bit more. they don't tell you, what they did to get all the gpl software up & running.
Jul 10 12:04:34 <notserpe> so I guess openmoko and hardware designs need to focus on anti-corp-espionage type features? I throw my 2 cents towards even a low megapix camera is useful.
Jul 10 12:04:36 <woglinde> mdt????
Jul 10 12:04:52 <aloril> why not this: Trolltech makes deal with FIC for them to produce greencased Neo1973's, then Trolltech installs Qtopia on them and sell them?
Jul 10 12:05:14 <mdt> has anybody ever seen qtopia and worked with it?
Jul 10 12:05:21 <woglinde> mdt asked ljp
Jul 10 12:05:32 <blindcoder> notserpe: I guess some car magazines would pay a small fortune even for low-res pics of new car models
Jul 10 12:05:47 <blindcoder> notserpe: that's why I hope that cams will remain optional
Jul 10 12:05:48 <mdt> woglinde, they have done a lot of work to build their flash image. this process is closed.
Jul 10 12:05:56 <xkr47> \o/
Jul 10 12:06:22 <woglinde> mdt did you try yourself?
Jul 10 12:06:31 <mdt> woglinde, no, i didn't ment to search someone. i have some expirience with it. i asked because you are so eager to see it on the neu
Jul 10 12:06:35 <mdt> neu -> neo
Jul 10 12:06:43 <mdt> woglinde, yes, i did alot
Jul 10 12:06:48 <woglinde> hm did I?
Jul 10 12:07:05 <woglinde> I only said greephone isnt thta bad everybody makes it
Jul 10 12:07:35 <hrw> I had greenphone in hands
Jul 10 12:07:58 <hrw> not so bad design, but I do not like qtopia look
Jul 10 12:08:08 <woglinde> hrw I like it
Jul 10 12:08:27 <mdt> woglinde, no, the hardware is great, i just don't like the 'fat toolkit' aproach
Jul 10 12:08:39 <woglinde> fat??
Jul 10 12:08:51 <mdt> woglinde, i don't like it in qtopia, i don't like it in openmoko
Jul 10 12:09:09 <woglinde> mdt than provide a better approach
Jul 10 12:09:13 <hrw> mdt: you prefer raw curses
Jul 10 12:09:40 <mdt> woglinde, if you startup a app with qtopia on the greenpone (wich has 312MHz instead of 266of the neo) it takes more than a second to even show the wait cursor
Jul 10 12:09:50 <mdt> hrw, no, shure not
Jul 10 12:09:58 <mdt> woglinde, i am about to do so ;)
Jul 10 12:09:59 <blindcoder> curses banzai! \o/
Jul 10 12:10:24 <mdt> woglinde, that's the cause i instantly ordered a neo yesterday
Jul 10 12:10:28 <blindcoder> great for apps to run on ssh'd-into servers :)
Jul 10 12:11:01 <Moo^^> mdt: is the starting lag caused by library overhead?
Jul 10 12:11:15 <SpeedEvil> aloril: yeah - it's possible even with fully open-source, if you have adequate hardware controls. Signed kernel and core firmware updates only.
Jul 10 12:11:26 <mdt> moo, i don't know exaclty. 
Jul 10 12:11:28 <Moo^^> mdt: I once was listeting to N770 developer giving a session about how they had optimized GTK app launch times
Jul 10 12:11:34 <Viko> How many sales by now?
Jul 10 12:11:37 <SpeedEvil> aloril: all phone apps run as the user, and you rely on normal unix security.
Jul 10 12:12:02 <SpeedEvil> Viko: It's probable that they have sold out the initial batch.
Jul 10 12:12:04 <mdt> moo,  what they do is they start up a so called quicklauuncher. this process idles around waiting 
Jul 10 12:12:07 <CM> blindcoder: I wonder what a leaked image would cost you (or me). Probably more..
Jul 10 12:12:11 <SpeedEvil> Viko: Or are about to.
Jul 10 12:12:27 <mdt> moo, if you start a app, the quicklauncher loads a shared lib with that code
Jul 10 12:12:38 * arw hello to all people
Jul 10 12:12:43 <barmeier> hi
Jul 10 12:12:45 <mdt> moo, this is to prevent the load&bind time of the fat c++ libs
Jul 10 12:12:52 <mdt> moo, anyway it is to slow
Jul 10 12:13:10 <arw> hi barmeier
Jul 10 12:13:17 <blindcoder> CM: probably a job and a few job opportunities, at least
Jul 10 12:13:38 <blindcoder> CM: but great to do if you get enough money to live off of interest
Jul 10 12:14:27 <CM> blindcoder: Not worth it for me anyway
Jul 10 12:15:35 <mdt> moo, what did the developer tell about startup optimization?
Jul 10 12:15:35 <SpeedEvil> For some. A) be honest B) Be dishonest, and obtain enough money to live the rest of your life without working. Is a hard choice.
Jul 10 12:15:36 <Viko> SpeedEvil, that was quick. :) I expected max 500 sales the first day.
Jul 10 12:15:47 <blindcoder> SpeedEvil: B! B! B! B!
Jul 10 12:15:53 <SpeedEvil> Viko: numbers are not confirmed - they are estimated.
Jul 10 12:16:07 <aloril> why so negative about compiling inside Neo1973?
Jul 10 12:16:15 <mmazur> SpeedEvil, yes, that's why the As work for the Bs ;)
Jul 10 12:16:21 <SpeedEvil> aloril: it is rather slow.
Jul 10 12:16:27 <SpeedEvil> Hmm. 
Jul 10 12:16:37 <SpeedEvil> We need some nice person to do a benchmark.
Jul 10 12:16:46 * aloril wrote *simple* Python like scripting language for HP49G+ calculator and codes in it sometimes ;-)
Jul 10 12:16:47 <blindcoder> mmazur: words of wisdom, my lad. *nods sagely*
Jul 10 12:17:03 <aloril> Neo1973 is big step up from that ;-)
Jul 10 12:17:07 <SpeedEvil> Compile bash or something moderately reasonable-sized in Neo and desktop
Jul 10 12:17:12 <mdt> is python ported to the neo?
Jul 10 12:17:27 <SpeedEvil> Port is a hard word.
Jul 10 12:17:28 <hrw> mdt: yes
Jul 10 12:17:34 <SpeedEvil> Most linux stuff just runs.
Jul 10 12:17:35 <mdt> nice... :D
Jul 10 12:17:50 * blindcoder imagines mutt, irssi and snownews on the neo
Jul 10 12:17:53 <mdt> python has some issues when crosscompiling 
Jul 10 12:17:54 <SpeedEvil> It may not work on a 640*480 touchscreen, but that's a seperate issue.
Jul 10 12:18:08 <ScaredyCat> http://mingle2.com/cadaver-calculator
Jul 10 12:18:16 <ScaredyCat> oops
Jul 10 12:18:27 <pgas> SpeedEvil: compiling a big C++ app is really slow, compiling C not so (on another pda platform but still)
Jul 10 12:18:35 <pgas> hrw: congrat
Jul 10 12:18:44 <hrw> hi pgas
Jul 10 12:18:49 <pgas> heya
Jul 10 12:19:02 <hrw> mdt: we have python in OpenEmbedded since OE started
Jul 10 12:19:10 <pgas> python + gtk = slow startup though :(
Jul 10 12:19:16 <andylockran> python has issues?
Jul 10 12:19:23 <aloril> SpeedEvil: Makefiles have been invented, no need to do full compile every time ;-)
Jul 10 12:19:42 * blindcoder remembers compiling nethack on a 133 MHz machine
Jul 10 12:19:50 <blindcoder> just took 30 minutes for a full cycle :)
Jul 10 12:20:15 <blindcoder> and KDE 2.something startup around an 15 minutes
Jul 10 12:20:30 <blindcoder> kde 3.something was at over an hour then
Jul 10 12:20:31 <andylockran> Linux_Galore_: fantastic!
Jul 10 12:20:44 <andylockran> oops.. that was meant to be blindcoder .. missed the b
Jul 10 12:21:01 <mdt> andylockran, yes, they use the compiled executables to do something. not a great idea when cross compiling
Jul 10 12:21:17 <SpeedEvil> pgas: 128M RAM will help with that though.
Jul 10 12:21:33 <SpeedEvil> pgas: and relatively fast swapping to SD too.
Jul 10 12:21:49 <hrw> mdt: ever tried to build those tools with native compiler?
Jul 10 12:22:27 <SpeedEvil> (the neo I suspect is only 2-6 times slower than my current laptop)
Jul 10 12:22:49 <mdt> hrw, on the device... ?
Jul 10 12:22:52 <CM> Installing gentoo from scratch on a 300MHz p2 laptop took about a week.
Jul 10 12:23:18 <sixfeet> moin all
Jul 10 12:23:31 <sixfeet> takes a looong time to get this phone
Jul 10 12:24:05 <sixfeet> i hope its avaliable before my old brake down *fg*
Jul 10 12:24:07 <pgas> SpeedEvil: hmm seems a workaround has been written for the olpc http://blogs.gnome.org/johan/2007/01/18/introducing-python-launcher/
Jul 10 12:24:30 <pgas> hmm maybe it exists for maemo
Jul 10 12:24:34 <aloril> would need USB disk to do self compile in Neo1973 and it would take possibly week or month
Jul 10 12:24:55 <hrw> mdt: on host you crosscompile XYZ. during build it builds ZXC tool to generate source from file. so to build ZXC you use host compiler and for rest you use crosscompiler
Jul 10 12:24:58 <hrw> mdt: easy
Jul 10 12:25:26 <pgas> aloril: an nfs drive
Jul 10 12:25:32 <mdt> hrw, shure, but python does different
Jul 10 12:25:42 <mdt> hrw, before i patched it ;)
Jul 10 12:25:47 <blindcoder> hrw: rock linux does something like this for cross compiles. you can use a cross-compiler on a power-horse-machine and all other programs run natively
Jul 10 12:25:54 <aloril> pgas: in that case you could as well just compile on PC ;-)
Jul 10 12:26:04 <jgm> hrw: there are a few bugs in SVN that means that we can't compile a development image, please could you take a look?
Jul 10 12:26:17 <aloril> pgas: I was thinking stack of batteries and somewhere in wild with only GPRS access ;-)
Jul 10 12:26:30 <blindcoder> hrw: this is done transparently by using a binfmt_misc handler
Jul 10 12:26:43 <aloril> would still make more sense to transmit new image over GPRS though ;-)
Jul 10 12:26:43 <hrw> blindcoder: I am doing crosscompilations for over 3 years
Jul 10 12:26:55 <blindcoder> hrw: your point?
Jul 10 12:27:02 <hrw> blindcoder: and without binfmt_misc stuff
Jul 10 12:27:06 <aric> Since openmoko build is broken right now on uboot, can anyone tell me how to compile only the kernel?  
Jul 10 12:27:06 <aloril> aric: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.)
Jul 10 12:27:33 <jgm> hrw: or should we be logging them somewhere?
Jul 10 12:27:43 <blindcoder> hrw: sorry for saying something about an area that you are seeming the uber-expert
Jul 10 12:27:44 <hrw> jgm: uboot?
Jul 10 12:27:51 <blindcoder> I will now go hide in my cave
Jul 10 12:27:58 <hrw> blindcoder: sorry - I did not wanted to sound like that
Jul 10 12:28:27 <jgm> Yep there's a missing target u-boot.udfu
Jul 10 12:28:47 <jgm> Also one too many #endif s in usbdcore.h (can't remember the exact location)
Jul 10 12:28:49 <blindcoder> hrw: it's okay, it's always the problem with text-only communication. guess I'm also a bit wobbly today :)
Jul 10 12:29:12 <jgm> And think there are a few other bits but that is as far as I got
Jul 10 12:29:40 <andylockran> shall I just wait for an updated makefile?
Jul 10 12:30:13 <CM> blindcoder: Got the developent env set up yet?
Jul 10 12:30:17 <ScaredyCat> the last line :)
Jul 10 12:30:18 <hrw> jgm: edit uboot/uboot-gta01_svn.bb and change SRC_URI to SRC_URI = "git://www.denx.de/git/u-boot.git/;protocol=git;tag=c0c292b2852a12e9d93e99b3aaf5b0dac5f36fdc \
Jul 10 12:30:19 <ScaredyCat> 680
Jul 10 12:30:30 <rschuste2> the uboot problem is a result of the patches not being applied correctly: http://pastebin.com/m5db6ba56
Jul 10 12:30:39 <blindcoder> CM: it's building
Jul 10 12:30:45 <rschuste2> question is what SRCDATE is supposed to work?
Jul 10 12:30:56 <blindcoder> CM: had to install git, diffstat and texi2html in addition to monotone and boost yet
Jul 10 12:30:57 <woglinde> rschuste2 guess 3 times
Jul 10 12:30:58 <hrw> jgm: it is workaround so do not flash resulting uboot rather
Jul 10 12:31:11 <blindcoder> CM: woglinde has been a great help with that so far
Jul 10 12:31:31 <CM> blindcoder: Good there's a lot of helpful people around :)
Jul 10 12:31:49 <blindcoder> CM: yeah, it's almost unreal for IRC :-)
Jul 10 12:32:00 <woglinde> blindcoder huh?
Jul 10 12:32:08 <woglinde> why unreal?
Jul 10 12:32:42 <blindcoder> woglinde: more often than not all I've recently got on various topics is the 'it's on google, search for it there' reply
Jul 10 12:32:51 <blindcoder> with recently being the last 2 years
Jul 10 12:32:55 <andylockran> hrw: which uboot file?
Jul 10 12:33:07 <hrw> andylockran: oe/packages/uboot/uboot-gta01_svn.bb
Jul 10 12:33:12 <andylockran> hrw: ts
Jul 10 12:34:58 <rschuste2> thanks for the hint. mentioned the workaround here: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Talk:MokoMakefile#U-Boot_compilation_fails
Jul 10 12:35:39 <andylockran> hrw: sorry - do i have to clear the cache?
Jul 10 12:35:43 <hrw> no
Jul 10 12:35:50 <andylockran> hrw: it's ok.. I'll look at the wiki
Jul 10 12:38:35 <aric> Since openmoko build is broken right now on uboot, can anyone tell me how to compile only the kernel?
Jul 10 12:38:37 <notserpe>              monotone and boost yet" is doced on wiki under "from scratch"
Jul 10 12:38:58 <andylockran> aric: have a look at the wiki three up
Jul 10 12:39:19 <aric> anylockran:  I did look at the wiki.  I'm already at git 1.5.
Jul 10 12:39:46 <aloril> about Python and OpenMoko: from less than 24h ago: <zecke>     procto: well openmoko-bindings has 100% coverage of openmokoui, ~80% of gsmd, and a pending patch to mokojournal to be bindable
Jul 10 12:39:57 <andylockran> ubuoot still killing it then?
Jul 10 12:40:11 <jgm> Hmm... adding the tag gives me a bitbake error (list index out of range)
Jul 10 12:40:22 <blindcoder> notserpe: what now, query or public? :-)
Jul 10 12:40:29 <aloril> and: zecke>     procto: most of the C examples for openmoko have python examples as well, and there is an example stylus app written in python using the bindings
Jul 10 12:42:16 <notserpe> blindcoder: hmm?
Jul 10 12:42:42 <blindcoder> notserpe: just that you quoted me half in a query and half here
Jul 10 12:42:50 <rwhitby> morning
Jul 10 12:42:52 <notserpe> blindcoder: my bad paste ;-)
Jul 10 12:42:56 <blindcoder> :)
Jul 10 12:43:20 <aric> andylockran:  I tried the other workaround that was posted recently, and uboot will still not compile.
Jul 10 12:43:45 <andylockran> aric: yeah, I'm getting nowhere with it either
Jul 10 12:43:54 <aric> anylockran:  But that is really beside the point.  Why does the package linux-gta01 have a dependency on uboot anyway?
Jul 10 12:44:09 <aric> andylockran:  sorry, I keep spelling your name wrong. :-)
Jul 10 12:44:12 <hrw> aric: because it need mkimage from uboot to generate kernel
Jul 10 12:45:13 <aric> hrw: That is broken, then.  The build of the kernel should be completely independent of making an image of the kernel for uboot.
Jul 10 12:45:33 <ScaredyCat> .. but then it begs the question .. why to : "Currently OpenMoko always uses the latest U-Boot sources."
Jul 10 12:45:54 <rschuste2> aric: that one explains the uboot and linux kernel intermixing quite well: http://www.amazon.com/Embedded-Linux-Primer-Real-World-Development/dp/0131679848
Jul 10 12:45:55 <hrw> aric: then tell it to mainline kernel devs why 'make uImage' req mkimage?
Jul 10 12:46:03 <ScaredyCat> to which it then applies patches...
Jul 10 12:46:51 <aric> hrw:  I compile kernels for ARM based devices all the time, and there is no requirement for mkimage.
Jul 10 12:47:24 <aloril> this channel quite high: http://irc.netsplit.de/channels/?net=freenode&query=&num=10
Jul 10 12:47:32 <hrw> aric: uimage or (b)zimage?
Jul 10 12:47:45 <aric> hrw: zImage
Jul 10 12:48:00 <hrw> aric: zImage does not need mkimage
Jul 10 12:48:14 <hrw> uImage needs it as there are some stuff for uboot written in header
Jul 10 12:48:38 <aric> hrw:  OK.  But really, I'm getting off track.  How can I get bitbake to make a zImage without a dependency on uboot?
Jul 10 12:48:45 <rwhitby> edit the recipe
Jul 10 12:48:58 <xkr47> add two eggs and some pepper
Jul 10 12:49:18 <blindcoder> *snrk*
Jul 10 12:49:19 <aloril> andylockran: can't reply with google reply when problem is too recent for google ;-)
Jul 10 12:49:58 <CM> aloril: Heh, I'm surprised #haskell is up there too 
Jul 10 12:52:31 <andylockran> aric: sorry..
Jul 10 12:52:44 <andylockran> aloril: what do you mean google reply?
Jul 10 12:53:29 <aloril> andylockran: I mean that it doesn't make sense to say to you "google for your problem" when google most likely would not find any page about your problem ;-)
Jul 10 12:53:56 <andylockran> true yeah
Jul 10 12:54:21 <aric> rwhitby: Thanks for the suggestion.  I found the .bb file and took out uboot.  Compiling now.
Jul 10 12:54:34 <ScaredyCat> is anyone running qemu with gcc 4.x ?
Jul 10 12:55:29 <ScaredyCat> just wondered what the problems were supposed to be...
Jul 10 12:56:00 <CM> ScaredyCat: It's not working
Jul 10 12:56:44 <CM> ScaredyCat: I tried a lot, on 64 bit gcc-4.1.2. Never got it working so I have 3.4.6 and 4.1.2 at the same time now
Jul 10 12:57:19 <ScaredyCat> yeah, I was just wondering if I could be arsed to install gcc 3.x
Jul 10 12:57:31 <ScaredyCat> if I hacve to I gues I will...
Jul 10 12:57:47 <blindcoder> ScaredyCat: I can second CM here
Jul 10 12:57:53 <CM> It really doesn't work with 4.x
Jul 10 12:57:56 <andylockran> third CM
Jul 10 12:58:08 <blindcoder> ScaredyCat: we go to great lengths to ensure qemu is compiled with gcc 3.x instead of anything else
Jul 10 12:58:40 <CM> blindcoder: You can get it to compile with gcc-4, but it won't run.. :P
Jul 10 12:58:54 <ScaredyCat> I know, but  I can disable the check...
Jul 10 12:58:55 <blindcoder> CM: yeah
Jul 10 13:00:54 <blindcoder> CM: compilers and optimisations are fun
Jul 10 13:01:02 <blindcoder> CM: and get you into all sorts of trouble :)
Jul 10 13:01:13 <CM> blindcoder: Hehe.. I've noticed
Jul 10 13:01:35 <blindcoder> CM: compiling firefox with gcc3.x and pentium4 optimisations throws interesting assembler errors
Jul 10 13:01:40 <blindcoder> s/firefox/mozilla/
Jul 10 13:01:41 <apt> blindcoder meant: CM: compiling mozilla with gcc3.x and pentium4 optimisations throws interesting assembler errors
Jul 10 13:03:22 <jeddy3> does anyone have info on number of orders/tickets sold? *curious*
Jul 10 13:04:17 <CM> jeddy3: Last on the P1 wiki page is #2686, but that was quite a while ago
Jul 10 13:04:45 <CM> LaF0rge: Congratulations getting the store up :)
Jul 10 13:04:51 <andylockran> I wish I'd waited 100 orders...
Jul 10 13:04:58 <Rince> hoi LaF0rge, I hope you hvae a little fun here ;)
Jul 10 13:05:00 <andylockran> I'm 1873...
Jul 10 13:05:25 <CM> andylockran: Heh, #1973 must get something extra ;)
Jul 10 13:05:50 <andylockran> CM: wouldn't that be nice
Jul 10 13:06:00 <blindcoder> hehe, half a dollar rebate for P2 :D
Jul 10 13:06:04 <bedboi> what web browser is shipped with openmoko?
Jul 10 13:06:08 <jeddy3> CM, my bad, didn't mean tickets....but rather processed orders
Jul 10 13:06:27 <jeddy3> bedboi, none yet
Jul 10 13:06:59 <CM> jeddy3: Nothing more than the automatic reply that the order is registered, afaik
Jul 10 13:08:55 <jeddy3> CM, damn...yesterday people (for example roh) had figures on sold orders...for example 300/~1000 
Jul 10 13:09:28 <CM> Haven't seen roh today, nor anyone from OpenMoko
Jul 10 13:10:08 <SpeedEvil> IIRC he was here earlier.
Jul 10 13:10:39 <SpeedEvil> jeddy3: these were mostly guesses from the ticket numbers produced when orders are made.
Jul 10 13:10:58 <jeddy3> SpeedEvil, oh ok
Jul 10 13:11:34 <CM> Anyone ordered a Neo lately? What's the last order nr?
Jul 10 13:11:50 <woglinde> 23xx I think
Jul 10 13:12:02 <SpeedEvil> There can be both errors in the low direction due to spam email to the ticket generator, or 
Jul 10 13:12:14 <SpeedEvil> in the high direction by people ordering >1 phone
Jul 10 13:13:33 <jeddy3> obviously it's to high, right?...2300 tickets
Jul 10 13:13:50 <jeddy3> or where did orders start?
Jul 10 13:14:05 <woglinde> 18xx 
Jul 10 13:14:07 <woglinde> or so
Jul 10 13:14:13 <CM> jeddy3: 1820 was the first
Jul 10 13:14:24 <jeddy3> CM ah, right
Jul 10 13:14:43 <mjr> 1820 or so
Jul 10 13:14:43 <mjr> (yes, I'm laggy, gprs)
Jul 10 13:15:30 <CM> Someone posted #2686 on http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/P1_Owners
Jul 10 13:15:53 <jouston> hello everyone
Jul 10 13:16:49 <CM> And I'm guessing at least 70% of the tickets are orders, at least that was the ratio yesterday that roh stated (250/350)
Jul 10 13:17:06 <CM> So maybe 600-800 orders
Jul 10 13:17:14 <jeddy3> heh, nive
Jul 10 13:17:19 <jeddy3> s/nive/nice
Jul 10 13:17:19 * CM gets some coffee
Jul 10 13:17:38 <jouston> I guess almost 600 orders now.
Jul 10 13:17:54 <kinlo> how many have been produced?
Jul 10 13:17:56 <blindcoder> so with shipment and all, it'll be at probably 500.000 $ income at the thousandth device. nice sum to leave to the caimans with ;)
Jul 10 13:18:30 <Kero> 70% of the tickets are orders? why not 100% ?
Jul 10 13:18:49 <DukeOfUrl> is there any new information about the shipping dates?
Jul 10 13:18:50 <jouston> Kero: People will ask what colors and that kind of stuff.
Jul 10 13:19:00 <jeddy3> that has to count as fairly much...wonder what the expected rate was...
Jul 10 13:19:04 <woglinde> duek 16.7?
Jul 10 13:19:37 <jeddy3> Kero, every mail to the system generates a ticket
Jul 10 13:21:04 <jeddy3> (except those already assigned with tickets)
Jul 10 13:33:33 <Kero> jeddy3: ah! hence the specifc subject on reply :)  some orders are >1 Neo, wonder how much that counterbalances...
Jul 10 13:34:35 <blindcoder> judging from the spam in _my_ inbox, I'd say about 0.6 orders per ticket
Jul 10 13:34:48 <blindcoder> 0.6 phones per ticket
Jul 10 13:35:28 <aloril> (script) planet: Holger "zecke" Freyther: A lovely respond to Lorn Potter of Trolltech http://zecke.blogspot.com/2007/07/lovely-respond-to-lorn-potter-of.html
Jul 10 13:35:28 <aloril> (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[User:C7]] [[Building_OpenMoko_from_scratch]] [[Category:Neo1973_Hardware/it]] [[Talk:MokoMakefile]] [[Neo1973_AUX_button/it]] [[FAQ/it]] [[Neo1973_AUX_button]] [[Alternate_Neo1973_case_designs]] [[Neo1973_Power_button]] [[Neo1973_Power_button/it]] and other changes
Jul 10 13:48:23 <aloril> counter_msg (last update 2007-07-10 13:43) http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter : Order https://direct.openmoko.com/ ; Shipping prob. 60% in
Jul 10 13:48:23 <aloril> aloril changed counter prefix message to (last update 2007-07-10 13:43) http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter : Order https://direct.openmoko.com/ ; Shipping prob. 60% in 
Jul 10 13:48:39 <aloril> added old blog/news entry: http://www.mobilewhack.com/reviews/fic_neo1973_smartphone.html
Jul 10 13:48:51 <aloril> "FIC apparently has the capacity to ship 100,000 of these phones per month. "
Jul 10 13:49:10 <anrp> that's believable
Jul 10 13:50:02 <aloril> that indeed sounds like 800 pound gorilla ;-)
Jul 10 13:50:15 <mmazur> It is.
Jul 10 13:50:20 <aloril> still, only 1.2m/year ;-)
Jul 10 13:50:32 <mmazur> Yea, there are gonna be shortages.
Jul 10 13:50:35 <mmazur> I can see that ;)
Jul 10 13:51:32 <aloril> thats about 3000 phones/day (so far I think they have done like some hundred/day, so only partial capacity used)
Jul 10 13:52:40 <SpeedEvil> Err - no.
Jul 10 13:52:59 <SpeedEvil> At the most they've been producing around 50-100/day
Jul 10 13:53:07 * aloril wonders what is latest rt ticket number now
Jul 10 13:53:40 <SpeedEvil> They are taking 1000 orders maybe/day now, they built them over a much longer period.
Jul 10 13:53:46 <blindcoder> "Guess: these are phones." heh
Jul 10 13:54:10 <CM> SpeedEvil: Sure? I think they produced them in a "batch" pretty quick, but the Q/A took some time
Jul 10 13:54:22 <CM> Or a few batches rather
Jul 10 13:54:37 <SpeedEvil> CM: there were reports of 'halfway through a batch' at one point
Jul 10 13:54:56 <CM> SpeedEvil: Hmm.. True. Remember that too. 
Jul 10 13:55:06 <aloril> "Today I spent at the FIC Suzhou factory, mainly doing final QA/Testing of the first 300 Neo1973 GTA01 phones. While I was doing this, another 192 phones went through assembly, resulting in a total of 492 units available at this time. "
Jul 10 13:55:15 <aloril> http://gnumonks.org/~laforge/weblog/2007/06/15#20070615-gta01-factory-trip
Jul 10 13:55:21 <SpeedEvil> There is a big gap between producing 100/day - and 3000/day. 
Jul 10 13:55:43 <SpeedEvil> More workers, more ...
Jul 10 13:55:46 <CM> aloril: Thanks, was thinking of that post
Jul 10 13:56:00 <aloril> maybe they are doing it only for part of day ...
Jul 10 13:56:25 <CM> Sounds to me like 192 phones were produced while Harald was doing some Q/A. Not that it took all day. Anyway..
Jul 10 13:56:27 <aloril> so that factory could produce more / day if they wanted and also they might (probably have) have other factories
Jul 10 13:56:37 <CM> aloril: Exactly
Jul 10 13:57:10 <Elrond> I think, the major headache was the LCM, no?
Jul 10 13:57:15 <SpeedEvil> A production line will have multiple channels.
Jul 10 13:57:37 <SpeedEvil> I suspect that probably only one channel was used for the initial run.
Jul 10 13:58:12 <SpeedEvil> If you pull the trigger on a 10K order, you may get more of the production facility dedicated to you.
Jul 10 13:58:35 <aloril> hmm.. assuming some really cool phone next year and really good progress in software development they could in theory not be able to produce enough phones, but still doesn't sound likely
Jul 10 13:58:57 <SpeedEvil> Never happen.
Jul 10 13:59:01 <aloril> SpeedEvil: sounds sensible
Jul 10 13:59:07 <SpeedEvil> At that point, you call in subcontractors.
Jul 10 13:59:43 <ewon> arw: hax!
Jul 10 14:00:00 <untwisted> mornin all
Jul 10 14:00:15 * SpeedEvil twists untwisted.
Jul 10 14:00:37 <untwisted> ouch
Jul 10 14:00:44 <untwisted> I just got pwn't
Jul 10 14:00:48 * arw says: hello to ewon 
Jul 10 14:00:55 <dff> so
Jul 10 14:01:02 <arw> good morning to untwisted
Jul 10 14:01:03 <dff> can i buy the phone yet? :o
Jul 10 14:01:12 <SpeedEvil> dff: look at topic
Jul 10 14:01:15 <untwisted> hehe
Jul 10 14:01:19 <dff> oh yay!
Jul 10 14:01:25 <SpeedEvil> You do know it's not a working phone?
Jul 10 14:01:32 <dff> i do know
Jul 10 14:01:43 <dff> im gonna make it work with lots of python code!
Jul 10 14:01:45 <rwhitby> click that buy button then!
Jul 10 14:01:49 <untwisted> Thats why I'm here, I'd like to know if anyone has their hands on it yet
Jul 10 14:01:50 <SpeedEvil> There is a Group Order page on the wiki to avoid shipping costs.
Jul 10 14:02:06 <dff> what does it have atm?
Jul 10 14:02:28 <SpeedEvil> Basically it's a small X box, with a dialer app that works most of the time.
Jul 10 14:02:36 <untwisted> I'd really like to putz with it, but I'm not sure if I want this version or the october release.  It seems like the $150 and 4 months may be worth the new features.
Jul 10 14:02:39 <SpeedEvil> And some prototype other apps.
Jul 10 14:02:42 <rwhitby> dff: wiki for info, mokomakefile to "make qemu" and look
Jul 10 14:02:55 <dff> oh ok
Jul 10 14:03:07 <dff> iPhone vs OpenMoko? ;>
Jul 10 14:03:13 <untwisted> OpenMoko
Jul 10 14:03:37 <untwisted> OSS > Apple > Windows IMO
Jul 10 14:03:47 <dff> communix!
Jul 10 14:04:00 <Elrond> FOSS > OSS
Jul 10 14:04:02 <Elrond> ;o)
Jul 10 14:04:06 <untwisted> ya ya :P
Jul 10 14:04:09 <blindcoder> I absolutely want the wifi, so I'm biding my time
Jul 10 14:04:17 <blindcoder> FLOSS > loss of teeth
Jul 10 14:04:20 <untwisted> yah, I think the wifi is a pretty big deal
Jul 10 14:04:35 <untwisted> I really want to play with it though...  I need a get rich quick scheme!
Jul 10 14:05:02 <blindcoder> untwisted: grab the qemu for it and develop your snowball makememoney app :)
Jul 10 14:05:04 <dff> mobile device hacker wants to get down and dirty with the first freed phone
Jul 10 14:05:06 <dff> >:)
Jul 10 14:05:09 <blindcoder> untwisted: and don't forget the 10% share for me
Jul 10 14:05:12 <Elrond> I hope the power management on thr GTA02 will really be better.
Jul 10 14:05:32 <blindcoder> Elrond: what's the problem with pm?
Jul 10 14:06:04 <untwisted> how do you propose I make money with a free phone app?  charge for support and include no help? :P
Jul 10 14:06:05 <aloril> Commands: counter (see estimated time until P1), counter_msg (set message for counter), faq (gives this link: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ )
Jul 10 14:06:08 <dff> 2.8" VGA TFT color display  is that from corner to corner?
Jul 10 14:06:09 <Elrond> blindcoder - Well, the CPU and LCM need a lot of power.
Jul 10 14:06:39 <blindcoder> untwisted: sounds like a good idea
Jul 10 14:06:39 <dff> thats 7cm
Jul 10 14:06:43 <blindcoder> Elrond: I see
Jul 10 14:07:07 <SpeedEvil> dff: yes
Jul 10 14:07:14 <aloril> hmm... rumor: $300 phone from Apple? http://www.reuters.com/article/technologyNews/idUSN0929372220070709
Jul 10 14:07:36 <Elrond> dff dff - http://www.flickr.com/groups/openmoko/pool/
Jul 10 14:07:40 <untwisted> maybe if I make a nice app and ask for donations to buy the phone people will send me enough to buy one
Jul 10 14:07:43 <inz> Elrond, shouldn't that be OSS \in FOSS, > is somewhat unambiguous
Jul 10 14:08:14 <blindcoder> untwisted: hah, good luck with that one
Jul 10 14:08:33 <untwisted> Anyone know if the onscreen keyboard works well with thumbs, or if you'd have to tote that huge ass stylus?
Jul 10 14:09:06 <blindcoder> huge ass styluses are called dildos
Jul 10 14:09:09 <blindcoder> sorry for that
Jul 10 14:09:10 <CM> Did the guy who made the calculator get a phone? I think he did..
Jul 10 14:09:11 <Elrond> untwisted - My friend was able to do "alsactl -f /etc/alsa/stereo* restore" using his fingernails. ;-)
Jul 10 14:09:17 <untwisted> nice!
Jul 10 14:09:26 <ScaredyCat> aloril: it might be $300 but it'll still be locked
Jul 10 14:09:29 <untwisted> huzzah for sweet phones
Jul 10 14:09:30 <Elrond> untwisted - But it took minutes!
Jul 10 14:09:33 <untwisted> lol
Jul 10 14:09:38 <untwisted> well thats a point to work on then
Jul 10 14:10:06 <untwisted> *sigh* well unfortunately it looks like I'm gonna be dumping $750 in phones over the new few months.  I need to get one of these suckers :P
Jul 10 14:10:20 <untwisted> damn my inability to restrain myself
Jul 10 14:10:54 <blindcoder> well, the first thing I'd probably write for that phone is a 'quick note keeping' app
Jul 10 14:10:59 <Elrond> untwisted - You're well aware, that this phone targets developers (read: It's not useable by joe average consumer)
Jul 10 14:11:05 <untwisted> aye
Jul 10 14:11:09 <Elrond> s/not/not yet
Jul 10 14:11:10 <blindcoder> as in 'move stylus over screen, draw aline on the canvas'
Jul 10 14:11:10 <aloril> ScaredyCat: yup, no personal interest, just thought you might to want to be aware it
Jul 10 14:12:10 <untwisted> some buddies of mine and I are working on an exo-kernel, and it would be interesting to develop it for this bugger rather than just general purpose like we were thinking
Jul 10 14:13:00 <aloril> anybody made order recently? what is rt ticket number?
Jul 10 14:13:19 <Elrond> untwisted - Yeah, the hardware is all documented (either in ource or real specs), so that is do-able (although writing for ARM is well.. interesting)
Jul 10 14:13:19 <blindcoder> aloril: just send a mail to order@om and have a look at the reply  :)
Jul 10 14:13:39 <untwisted> hehe
Jul 10 14:13:47 <aloril> blindcoder: hehe (don't wanna spam them)
Jul 10 14:13:54 <ScaredyCat> that' probably the worst idea ever blindcoder
Jul 10 14:14:02 <untwisted> it can't be much worse than trying to figure out how to get in to pure 64 bit mode with nothing more than 3 AMD docs that explain little
Jul 10 14:14:20 <blindcoder> ScaredyCat: hah, you should see some other ideas of mine and then say that again (several times, probably)
Jul 10 14:14:43 <Elrond> untwisted - The CPU doc is 300 pages. ;-)
Jul 10 14:14:54 <untwisted> I'm a 4th year CS student and this project is so far above my head I can hardly see the light anymore, but we're trudging through it!
Jul 10 14:15:13 <ScaredyCat> for(;;) echo "that's probably the worst idea ever blindcoder";
Jul 10 14:15:22 <untwisted> among the linux source, the docs, and trial and error we've made a bit of progress ;)
Jul 10 14:15:41 <Elrond> untwisted - ;-)
Jul 10 14:15:42 <blindcoder> ScaredyCat: yeah, that sounds about right.
Jul 10 14:16:11 <untwisted> brb
Jul 10 14:16:23 * ScaredyCat goes back to fixing php :/
Jul 10 14:16:34 <duffyd> ScaredyCat: noooooo
Jul 10 14:16:45 <duffyd> ScaredyCat: step away from the php man :-)
Jul 10 14:16:59 <ScaredyCat> I have to do it ... 
Jul 10 14:17:03 <blindcoder> anyway, I'm going home
Jul 10 14:17:03 <untwisted> back!
Jul 10 14:17:04 <blindcoder> bbl
Jul 10 14:17:18 * Elrond tries to go back to work, despite having no energy for it.
Jul 10 14:17:20 <ScaredyCat> 10000 lines, and i need to review it all....
Jul 10 14:17:23 <duffyd> ScaredyCat: yeah we've all gotta earn a living. I'm actually a Plone dev by trade
Jul 10 14:17:26 * ScaredyCat sobs
Jul 10 14:17:33 <duffyd> ScaredyCat: I feel for you :-)
Jul 10 14:18:05 <duffyd> btw I noticed someone on the mailing list asking about how to get started developing on the Neo1973 - this is a question I'm interested in too
Jul 10 14:18:07 <ScaredyCat> sometimes, it even gets 'OMFG who wrote this crap' ....'oh yeah, it was me'
Jul 10 14:18:17 <duffyd> ScaredyCat: lol
Jul 10 14:18:27 <aloril> latest number is #2686 from about 8h ago
Jul 10 14:18:37 <duffyd> ScaredyCat: I think we're all our worst critics ;-)
Jul 10 14:18:44 <galexande> duffyd, http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/MokoMakefile
Jul 10 14:18:49 <aloril> (from http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/P1_Owners and its history)
Jul 10 14:18:52 <ScaredyCat> somtimes I encrypt it as i write it ;)
Jul 10 14:18:54 <duffyd> galexande: thanks
Jul 10 14:19:05 <duffyd> ScaredyCat: lol
Jul 10 14:19:34 <duffyd> galexande: how easy is it to get a python environment running on the Neo?
Jul 10 14:21:17 <CM> It's generating a lot of press: http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20070710-developer-models-of-openmoko-open-source-smartphone-released.html
Jul 10 14:21:42 <duffyd> CM: cool!
Jul 10 14:21:50 <galexande> duffyd, i bet it's as easy as, worst case, mounting your PC HDD via NFS and downloading python source to it and running ./configure; make
Jul 10 14:21:51 <CM> duffyd: It's already there, with bindings for the moko libs too
Jul 10 14:22:12 <galexande> but you can probably use the cross-development tools like ./configure --target=arm-linux-elf or something
Jul 10 14:22:31 <galexande> i'm worri.ed about all the press, a lot of the slashdot weenies will turn into major whiners.
Jul 10 14:22:34 <duffyd> CM: cool. So after running the MokoMakeFile it should be built in?
Jul 10 14:23:15 <rwhitby> duffyd: should be.
Jul 10 14:23:24 <duffyd> rwhitby: grand!
Jul 10 14:23:30 <duffyd> rwhitby: do you know which version of python?
Jul 10 14:25:11 <rwhitby> duffyd: oh, it's not built into the image, but it's only a bitbake away
Jul 10 14:25:44 <mintee> what day are they thinking it's going to ship out?
Jul 10 14:25:45 <rwhitby> 2.4.4 is what you would get by default I think.
Jul 10 14:26:10 <duffyd> rwhitby: great. Is bitbake a MokoMakeFile-specific command?
Jul 10 14:26:14 <rwhitby> CM: that arstechnica article is pretty good.
Jul 10 14:26:34 <CM> rwhitby: Yes, they usually are :)
Jul 10 14:26:37 <rwhitby> duffyd: no, bitbake is the underlying build system for OpenEmbedded.  MokoMakefile just wraps around the lot of that to make it easier to set up.
Jul 10 14:26:52 <duffyd> rwhitby: great, thanks again!
Jul 10 14:27:02 <CM> duffyd: rwhitby made the MokoMakefile ;)
Jul 10 14:27:05 <rwhitby> CM: I like the way the characterise GTA01 as a prototype of GTA02, just missing some features like wifi and accels.
Jul 10 14:27:29 <CM> rwhitby: Exactly, really got it right and in a positive way
Jul 10 14:27:33 <slider_> are there any functional constraints to phython on the neo if "just compile"/bitbake it?
Jul 10 14:27:45 <Viko> rwhitby: but won't GTA02 have a faster processor?
Jul 10 14:27:59 <rwhitby> Viko: yep
Jul 10 14:28:16 <CM> Viko: And a graphics chip :)
Jul 10 14:28:22 <Viko> rwhitby: They should probably have written that too then..
Jul 10 14:28:29 <Viko> Since they mention the wifi.
Jul 10 14:28:47 <rwhitby> "Unlike the final release models, which will be available in October, the prototype units lack WiFi support and don't have built-in accelerometers." is a good way to state it for people who are not familiar with the project.
Jul 10 14:29:36 <duffyd> accelerometers?
Jul 10 14:29:43 <duffyd> excuse my ignorance ;-)
Jul 10 14:29:49 <ewon> tilt
Jul 10 14:29:53 <SpeedEvil> Gravity field gradient detectors.
Jul 10 14:29:57 <orzo> how does openmoko/neo1973 compare to the trolltech greenphone?
Jul 10 14:30:06 <jonwil> Its a lot more open for one thing IIRC
Jul 10 14:30:07 <duffyd> orzo: it's made in Taiwan ;-)
Jul 10 14:30:22 <CM> The mp3-player must have a random function that works by shaking it hard ;)
Jul 10 14:30:23 <orzo> dunno why that matters
Jul 10 14:30:23 <duffyd> well the parent company is in Taiwan anyway
Jul 10 14:30:30 <rwhitby> both my neo's and my n800 could have used some gravity deflectors in the last month.  both have been dropped onto the pavement from chest height.
Jul 10 14:30:32 <SpeedEvil> duffyd: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Accelerometer_Fundamentals
Jul 10 14:30:39 <duffyd> SpeedEvil: thanks
Jul 10 14:31:01 <Viko> rwhitby: Its generally good yes, I was thinking about; "... which features a 2.8 inch touchscreen, a 266 Mhz ARM processor, and WiFi—is the fir ..." They should mention a faster processor if they mention Wifi (unless I am sadly mistaken, and 266MHz IS the faster processor)
Jul 10 14:31:11 <orzo> is the greenphone less open?
Jul 10 14:31:42 <rwhitby> orzo: http://zecke.blogspot.com/2007/07/lovely-respond-to-lorn-potter-of.html
Jul 10 14:31:55 <kensan> orzo: indeed. The whole communication stack is "closed". See also latest blog-entry from zecke
Jul 10 14:32:11 <galexande> what is this, random debian problem day?
Jul 10 14:32:15 <rwhitby> more green, less open :-)
Jul 10 14:33:13 * rwhitby notices it's midnight, and heads to bed.  night all.
Jul 10 14:33:15 <jonwil> Is there any discussion anywhere as to why the Neo1973 does not feature a camera (either in the current version or the new final version with WiFi)?
Jul 10 14:33:16 <aloril> GTA02 (P2) will have WiFi (Atheros AR6K): http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973  http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ#Q:_What_is_the_rationale_behind_the_exclusion_of_WiFi.3F
Jul 10 14:33:18 <ScaredyCat> CM: and a snow globe, that you shake
Jul 10 14:34:16 <delinka> has anyone else seen problems with __ptr_t not being defined when building from the openmoko sources for the first time?
Jul 10 14:34:39 <orzo> thanks, kensan and rwhitby 
Jul 10 14:35:01 <ScaredyCat> delinka: you on a mac?
Jul 10 14:35:05 <delinka> yes
Jul 10 14:35:34 <ScaredyCat> someone else had the same issue..
Jul 10 14:35:47 <ScaredyCat> same problem. same cause
Jul 10 14:35:52 <ScaredyCat> iyswim
Jul 10 14:36:11 <delinka> I added typedef void * __ptr_t to one of the seemingly appropriate header files and it's running ATM, but ...
Jul 10 14:36:39 <delinka> I feel dirty hacking around w/o knowing *anything* about the project yet
Jul 10 14:38:37 <noidd> man, I would love to know how many neos they sold so far
Jul 10 14:39:06 <luke-jr_work> does the Neo1973 support prepaid plans and such?
Jul 10 14:39:06 <delinka> If I can get some basic apps going on the emulator, I'm buying a dev kit *soon*
Jul 10 14:39:37 <delinka> luke-jr_work: that's going to depend on the network you're on - the *phone* is just a phone
Jul 10 14:40:10 <ScaredyCat> it's not locked luke-jr_work
Jul 10 14:40:14 <notserpe> luke-jr_work: you know this is a developer release right?
Jul 10 14:40:20 <ScaredyCat> so any sim should work
Jul 10 14:40:20 <andylockran> luke-jr_work: you can get really good pre-paid sim only
Jul 10 14:40:26 <andylockran> then just stick the sim in the neo
Jul 10 14:40:37 <kensan> luke-jr_work: as long as it is a sim-card for gsm every contract works.
Jul 10 14:40:52 <Pete-J> Hello iam just wondering if it's possible to install OpenMoko on an iPAQ hw6910?
Jul 10 14:40:53 <aloril> Pete-J: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.)
Jul 10 14:41:23 <PBeck> hi
Jul 10 14:41:37 <PBeck> hi
Jul 10 14:41:43 * Stephmw wonders if the OpenMoko release announcement has hit another big online site...
Jul 10 14:42:13 <delinka> ScaredyCat: there's also a problem relying on Mac OS X's 'which' command ...
Jul 10 14:43:06 <luke-jr_work> notserpe: I'm waiting for the final
Jul 10 14:43:31 <luke-jr_work> so in practice/reality, the prepaid plans *do/will* work?
Jul 10 14:43:51 <delinka> ok, the emulator is running ... how the hell do I "Touch the crosshairs to calibrate the screen"?  mouse-clicking it doesn't seem to work   :/
Jul 10 14:44:20 <luke-jr_work> any idea if the prepaid things generally support network access? ;)
Jul 10 14:44:30 <aloril> camera?
Jul 10 14:44:30 <aloril> There is no camera included. With (battery) powered USB hub, you should be able to attach to (almost) any external camera. See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973_Hardware for details on what is included. Also see http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (also some model next year probably will gave camera module: http://www.channelweb.co.uk/vnunet/news/2192036/first-open-source-mobile-phone )
Jul 10 14:44:32 <galexande> pete, probably but it's not trivial
Jul 10 14:44:59 <delinka> ah, nevermind - double-clicking  ;-)
Jul 10 14:45:23 <aloril> jonwil: camera would basically require case modification which requires retooling which is very expensive
Jul 10 14:45:24 <Stephmw> luke-jr_work: check with your local operator
Jul 10 14:45:26 <delinka> can I get a Firewire port for my iSight?   :P
Jul 10 14:45:30 <Stephmw> luke-jr_work: this kind of stuff is really variable
Jul 10 14:46:18 <jonwil> ok, thanks for the info aloril
Jul 10 14:46:57 <aloril> jonwil: also not all can buy device with camera because its forbidden in many places
Jul 10 14:47:00 <Stephmw> hey mickeyl 
Jul 10 14:47:10 <delinka> does anyone make a Blluetooth camera? that'd be cool
Jul 10 14:47:10 <aloril> There is no camera included. With (battery) powered USB hub, you should be able to attach to (almost) any external camera. See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973_Hardware for details on what is included. Also see http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (also some model next year probably will gave camera module: http://www.channelweb.co.uk/vnunet/news/2192036/first-open-source-mobile-phone )
Jul 10 14:47:14 <Shoragan> hi mickey :)
Jul 10 14:47:17 <aloril> hi mickeyl, seems to be selling quite fast
Jul 10 14:47:47 <Elrond> Hi mickeyl! :-)
Jul 10 14:47:49 <jonwil> I think maybe the answer is to produce a simple accessory camera module that can use the usb host of the openmoko phone.
Jul 10 14:47:50 <Shoragan> mickeyl, stefan has arrived at RMLL at amiens
Jul 10 14:48:05 <mickeyl> hi
Jul 10 14:48:42 <jonwil> Such module would contain as little electrics as possible and rely on control software running on neo phone to work
Jul 10 14:48:56 <galexande> woo mokomakefile was just stalled because my libldap spontaneously combusted
Jul 10 14:49:03 <galexande> i lovethe easy ones
Jul 10 14:49:05 <jonwil> Would have the advantage of not requiring any retooling of neo phone case
Jul 10 14:49:15 <aloril> Stephmw: it has been digged at least one more time, maybe 3 total digged articles for this "its available for order"
Jul 10 14:49:27 <Stephmw> aloril: ouch
Jul 10 14:49:41 <Stephmw> aloril: do we have a channel membership over time graph? :D
Jul 10 14:49:48 <aloril> Stephmw: also I think USA is starting to awake and there are continuously new news in various medias
Jul 10 14:49:49 <CM> jonwil: Why not bluetooth?
Jul 10 14:49:54 <galexande> jonwil, really the only reason to integrate the camera into the phone is to save pocket space...if you have to carry around a second device, it might as well be a camera
Jul 10 14:50:16 <Stephmw> galexande: with the poor quality of cheap cameras on phones, it might as well be a camera :)
Jul 10 14:50:17 <jonwil> Does anyone make a bluetooth camera?
Jul 10 14:50:30 <galexande> stephmw, my thoughts exactly
Jul 10 14:50:40 <Elrond> galexande - Exactly. I want good glas anyway. ;-)
Jul 10 14:50:43 <CM> Not yet, that I know of.. But it's only a matter of time :)
Jul 10 14:50:52 * Stephmw pats his dedicated camera
Jul 10 14:51:14 <Stephmw> galexande: mind you, I wouldn't mind _controlling_ my dSLR from the Neo :)
Jul 10 14:51:22 <galexande> heh
Jul 10 14:51:38 <aloril> Stephmw: http://irc.netsplit.de/channels/details.php?room=%23openmoko&net=freenode
Jul 10 14:51:45 <CM> There's several cameras with wifi though
Jul 10 14:51:46 <Ganneff> 2007-01__STATUS:20-01-2007 21:57:25 (!) Irssi: New peak in #openmoko@opn : 190
Jul 10 14:51:54 <jonwil> good point, yeah, if you are going to have to use a seperate device to take photos, it may as well be a full camera
Jul 10 14:52:07 <Stephmw> aloril: thanks!
Jul 10 14:52:26 <untwisted> I like the ability to quick snap a pic, but I'll admit I often don't use the camera on my phone, and could easily do without
Jul 10 14:53:16 <Elrond> untwisted - Right. (my phone has no camera) and in the occassions I would have liked to have a camera, I would have needed a good one.
Jul 10 14:54:16 <notserpe> how are we gonna cool startrek videoconference each other on moko with no camera? 
Jul 10 14:54:17 * notserpe ducks
Jul 10 14:54:22 <untwisted> yah, I'd be willing to sacrifice the camera for a badass phone
Jul 10 14:54:39 <aloril> btw.. new record currently in number of nicks
Jul 10 14:55:15 <ScaredyCat> j /#asterisk-drinkers
Jul 10 14:55:20 <ScaredyCat> ooops
Jul 10 14:55:41 <mickeyl> Shoragan: thanks, cool. will he go to Birmingham directly from there or come back in between?
Jul 10 14:55:59 <galexande> ack, some mokomakefile patch set is out of date
Jul 10 14:56:01 <Shoragan> mickeyl, he'll come back for the weekend
Jul 10 14:56:22 <ewon> so hands up who has ordered a phone and has got some form of confirmation email, even an automagic one?
Jul 10 14:56:30 <noidd> man, i'd love to know how many we've sold.  After all, if the store melted down - that has to be a good sign right?
Jul 10 14:56:39 <Elrond> notserpe - well, (I'm no treky) I thought, the old comminucators were voice only?
Jul 10 14:56:50 <galexande> ewon, almost everyone has an automatic one from RT, i don't think anyonehas an actual confirmation
Jul 10 14:57:00 <ewon> galexande: great, I got nothing :(
Jul 10 14:57:24 <aloril> historical records (nick count date; ...): 106 2006-12-04; 201 2007-01-21; 283 2007-03-07; 288 2007-07-02; 343 2007-07-09; 347 2007-07-10
Jul 10 14:58:06 <untwisted> so I don't need to feel rushed to order one yet eh? ;)
Jul 10 14:58:09 <aloril> notserpe, jonwil: I suspect there will be future models with camera
Jul 10 14:58:37 * juri_ -> OKCITY
Jul 10 14:58:39 <CM> ewon: Sure yours didn't get stuck in a spam filter somewhere?
Jul 10 14:58:46 <ewon> CM: quite sure.
Jul 10 14:58:51 <CM> :/
Jul 10 14:58:52 <notserpe> aloril: I'd suspect so also, seeing as consumers tend to want them... even if restricted security developers don't/can't.
Jul 10 14:58:56 <aloril> ewon: id did melt down for some hours
Jul 10 14:59:03 <aloril> (store)
Jul 10 14:59:13 <ewon> I only have one spam folder, and I checked that. I do have greylisting working, but that would delay it an hour, tops.
Jul 10 14:59:32 <galexande> ewon, their mailserver doesn't retry
Jul 10 14:59:45 <don-o> counter
Jul 10 14:59:46 <aloril> (last update 2007-07-10 13:43) http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter : Order https://direct.openmoko.com/ ; Shipping prob. 60% in a week, a day 21:00:09 (8.875±3.0 days) (1727;246)
Jul 10 15:00:03 <aloril> ewon: did you get blank page or page that says to wait for comfimation mail?
Jul 10 15:00:17 <aloril> ewon: there are reports of confirmation mail taking more than 24h
Jul 10 15:21:55 <untwisted> dead in here now :(
Jul 10 15:22:14 <blindcoder> yeah, one could download the sound ofa needle falling
Jul 10 15:22:20 <untwisted> hah
Jul 10 15:22:36 <untwisted> I want to not be at work so I can try some openmoko dev :(
Jul 10 15:22:36 * don-o groans
Jul 10 15:23:19 <|mperitus> how is it? does it live up to expectations?
Jul 10 15:23:31 <untwisted> no idea
Jul 10 15:23:52 <DukeOfUrl> blindcoder: do you use a reader or braile device
Jul 10 15:23:54 <DukeOfUrl> ?
Jul 10 15:24:10 <blindcoder> DukeOfUrl: neither, the 'blind' does not refer to my eyes
Jul 10 15:24:15 <DukeOfUrl> sorry
Jul 10 15:24:31 <blindcoder> no offense taken
Jul 10 15:25:00 <DukeOfUrl> My blind associates say the Neo will be useless because of the lack of tactile feedback
Jul 10 15:25:04 <Compudj> hello! I wonder if there is any help I can give regarding Linux kernel support for the openmoko.. it looks like a very cool project :)
Jul 10 15:25:28 <galexande> compudj, there are still probably bugs in the drivers
Jul 10 15:25:34 <Compudj> oh, great :)
Jul 10 15:25:43 <cjb> Compudj: there's an openmoko-kernel mailing list.
Jul 10 15:25:43 <galexande> though i've been lead to believej that the kernel side is the only side that is "mostly there"
Jul 10 15:25:51 <Compudj> I see that it runs on the ARM architecture...
Jul 10 15:25:56 <PBeck> http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973:_GTA01Bv4_versus_GTA02_comparison <= hum is the RAM with 256 mb on the GTA02 right?
Jul 10 15:25:59 <Compudj> how many MB or ram/HD do you have ?
Jul 10 15:26:33 <PBeck> i dont think so. GTA02 has 128 mb RAM?
Jul 10 15:26:45 <untwisted> I think the 02 has 256
Jul 10 15:26:48 <Compudj> hum, interesting... since it is a standard kernel, my kernel tracer could probably help out (LTTng)
Jul 10 15:27:03 <Compudj> (mostly standard)
Jul 10 15:27:45 <thomasg_> untwisted, PBeck, flash will be 256 mb in gta02, ram will stay at 128 mb
Jul 10 15:27:51 <untwisted> oh my bad
Jul 10 15:28:26 <thomasg_> well, I whish it was the other way, but also 128 mb are huge
Jul 10 15:28:41 <don-o> that wiki page should be updated, then.
Jul 10 15:29:14 <PBeck> thomasg_: you confirm my guess
Jul 10 15:29:23 <thomasg_> oh, on the wiki is 256 mb for flash AND ram. but I never heard somebody saying that the ram will be increased
Jul 10 15:29:28 <galexande> the s3c accesses memory in 128mb banks
Jul 10 15:29:42 <PBeck> thomasg_: hrhr ... my words :P
Jul 10 15:30:05 <thomasg_> yeah, in fact sean didn't say something about the ram
Jul 10 15:30:08 <thomasg_> so the wiki is wrong
Jul 10 15:30:18 <thomasg_> I'll change that
Jul 10 15:30:48 <PBeck> ok good
Jul 10 15:32:13 <thomasg_> changed
Jul 10 15:34:48 <thomasg_> hehe, on the P1_Owners page the highest order number is #2686 - so all 1000 neos should be sold now
Jul 10 15:35:13 <woglinde> thomasg yes seems so
Jul 10 15:35:17 <cjb> wow
Jul 10 15:35:39 <don-o> sold out in 24-48 hours, just like the iPhone :)
Jul 10 15:35:51 <ScaredyCat> eh?
Jul 10 15:35:53 <thomasg_> hehe. other dimensons, but very nice for FIC and for us
Jul 10 15:36:03 <ScaredyCat> there were 1000 of them....
Jul 10 15:36:04 <mintee> mine is 2816
Jul 10 15:36:42 <thomasg_> mintee, so I think you maybe have to wait for the next production run
Jul 10 15:36:43 <parag0n> hahahah
Jul 10 15:36:58 <mintee> Oh well...  didn't have the time to order yesterday
Jul 10 15:37:15 <flingpoo> I wish MicroSD cards weren't so tiny and slow.
Jul 10 15:37:17 <thomasg_> well, I think FIC will produce the next few hundered, soon
Jul 10 15:37:22 <ScaredyCat> but but but
Jul 10 15:37:28 <aloril> (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[OpenMoko2007/it]] [[Neo1973:_GTA01Bv4_versus_GTA02_comparison]] [[Getting_Started_with_your_Neo1973/it]] [[Wish_List_-_Hardware]] [[Current_events]] [[Wishlist:Expansion_Front]] [[Category:Neo1973_Hardware_Debugging/it]] [[P1_Owners]] and other changes
Jul 10 15:37:30 <ScaredyCat> the number is just a ticket number..
Jul 10 15:37:41 <thomasg_> ScaredyCat, but we can assume that it started at 1800
Jul 10 15:37:42 <ScaredyCat> anything that gets emailed in gets a ticket number
Jul 10 15:37:48 <thomasg_> yeah, right
Jul 10 15:37:56 <ScaredyCat> even if its not an order
Jul 10 15:38:02 <ScaredyCat> even if it's spam
Jul 10 15:38:04 <ScaredyCat> etc
Jul 10 15:38:09 <mintee> why are we assuming?
Jul 10 15:38:27 <thomasg_> mintee, if we don't know we only can assume or try to know :)
Jul 10 15:38:49 <PBeck> where ist the P1-owner page?
Jul 10 15:39:02 <don-o> PBeck: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/P1_Owners
Jul 10 15:39:11 <galexande> rwhitby, there is a mismatch between uboot-gta01-1.2.0+svnnow-r11_4ef.../git/patches/uboot-dfu.patch and the file a modifies (u-boot/tools/Makefile).  it is ane asy mismatch, i can correct the uboot-dfu.patch file, are you interested?
Jul 10 15:39:12 <mintee> thomasg_, yes... i guess someone with the lowest ticket number was around 1800 
Jul 10 15:39:12 <ScaredyCat> 1800 was the lowest reported order id / ticket, from here
Jul 10 15:39:16 <PBeck> don-o: thanks
Jul 10 15:39:31 <ScaredyCat> 1820 wasn;t it?
Jul 10 15:39:42 <ScaredyCat> Jason1 was the first iirc
Jul 10 15:39:52 <ScaredyCat> then CM
Jul 10 15:40:44 <ScaredyCat> and i think roh confirmed that Jason1 was the first
Jul 10 15:41:01 <thomasg_> ScaredyCat, yes, it was 1820
Jul 10 15:41:08 <ScaredyCat> not that it matters.. since..
Jul 10 15:41:16 <ScaredyCat> All your neo are belong to me
Jul 10 15:41:45 <thomasg_> well, all I want to know is, if I will get one of the first 1k devices, cause I don't want to wait longer :)
Jul 10 15:42:06 <thomasg_> but - it will be shipped at the 16th or so and I am away for a week then :(
Jul 10 15:42:13 <ScaredyCat> if you don't Ill sell you mine... 
Jul 10 15:42:17 <ScaredyCat> at a reasonable rate, of course
Jul 10 15:42:21 <thomasg_> hehe
Jul 10 15:42:37 <thomasg_> I have a order number <2000, so this shouldn't be a problem ^^
Jul 10 15:42:41 <SpeedEvil> I would not be surprised to see some popping up on ebay.
Jul 10 15:42:49 <thomasg_> oh, it will, I'm sure
Jul 10 15:42:55 <untwisted> think they'll ship me one on good looks rather than money?
Jul 10 15:42:59 <ScaredyCat> yeh... I wish they'd mentioned the 16th as the possible shipping date...
Jul 10 15:43:05 <ScaredyCat> it's all rather vague
Jul 10 15:43:10 <thomasg_> I hope I get the JTAG before gta02 release on ebay (for < $150)
Jul 10 15:43:36 <ScaredyCat> untwisted: you'll never get one then ;)
Jul 10 15:44:27 * ScaredyCat thinks anyone ebaying needs to be taken out bad and beaten
Jul 10 15:44:36 <untwisted> you're pwobaby wight :(
Jul 10 15:44:37 <ScaredyCat> s/bad/back/
Jul 10 15:45:34 <thomasg_> the only thing I hope for is, that the costums won't get the device :)
Jul 10 15:45:41 <thomasg_> *customs
Jul 10 15:46:11 <ScaredyCat> .. I'm guessing that since there's me and Eric who fancy a steampunk case... and that's all... it they wont get made?
Jul 10 15:46:43 <ScaredyCat> I hate that... :/
Jul 10 15:47:02 <delinka> "If you forgot to request a special color..."  Special colors?  What "special" colors are available?
Jul 10 15:48:11 <ScaredyCat> although, sometimes stuff destined for europe from the us seems to go in via the uk, then on to de, and sort of gets forgotten about, in duty terms :)
Jul 10 15:48:14 <jpcass> some people think orange is special
Jul 10 15:48:30 <ScaredyCat> those are 'special' people jpcass ;)
Jul 10 15:48:51 <galexande> i am special!
Jul 10 15:49:00 <ScaredyCat> yes, yesy you are
Jul 10 15:49:11 <jpcass> galexande: can i be your friend?
Jul 10 15:49:20 <ScaredyCat> lol
Jul 10 15:50:42 <ScaredyCat> did anyone get anwhere with the  u-boot.udfu target being missing
Jul 10 15:51:18 <delinka> is there an OpenMoko dev channel on freenode?
Jul 10 15:51:29 <galexande> scaredy, i'm not having a missing target, my uboot problem was uboot-dfu.patch can't apply.
Jul 10 15:51:52 <galexande> i don't really feel the need to build uboot, i wish i could get it to skip it :)
Jul 10 15:52:06 <mickeyl> delinka: since we are far away from a user release, #openmoko should serve as the developer's channel for now
Jul 10 15:52:11 <ScaredyCat> | NOTE: make CROSS_COMPILE=arm-linux- u-boot.udfu
Jul 10 15:52:11 <ScaredyCat> | make[1]: Entering directory `/home/moko/build/tmp/work/armv4t-linux/uboot-gta01-1.2.0+svnnow-r11_4ef218f6fdf8d747f4589da5252b004e7d2c2876_0_2348/git'
Jul 10 15:52:11 <ScaredyCat> | make[1]: *** No rule to make target `u-boot.udfu'.  Stop.
Jul 10 15:52:15 <galexande> and now there's an extra #endif, probably the result of partial compiling.
Jul 10 15:52:28 <galexande> s/compiling/patching/
Jul 10 15:52:29 <apt> galexande meant: and now there's an extra #endif, probably the result of partial patching.
Jul 10 15:52:32 <delinka> "should" ... yes ... but it seems rather busy with noise    :/
Jul 10 15:52:37 <ScaredyCat> yes, remove it from usbcore.h
Jul 10 15:53:12 <aloril> 997 rt tickete numbers now, 130 new in last 8 hours (16 orders/h for last 8h), total about 22 orders / h
Jul 10 15:53:22 <delinka> where should __ptr_t be declared/defined?
Jul 10 15:53:56 <ScaredyCat> define it just before there, there;s a few defines... iirc it's a know issue on Macs
Jul 10 15:54:00 <galexande> sweet, i am shutting shit down to install my new drive and i see everything spitting out ENOSPC errors
Jul 10 15:54:03 <galexande> perfect timing
Jul 10 15:54:37 <aloril> 1820 is lowest order ticket number
Jul 10 15:54:56 * ScaredyCat thinks aloril is in a time wap
Jul 10 15:55:03 <ScaredyCat> s/wap/warp/
Jul 10 15:55:06 <delinka> ScaredyCat: but that didn't really answer the question - where does it come from on other platforms? where *should* it be? Like I said, I added it (as void *) and I'm working, but what's the correct way to fix it?
Jul 10 15:55:54 <ScaredyCat> unfortuneately my irc log doesn't go back that far... but I know it was discussed...
Jul 10 15:56:20 <ScaredyCat> nooed to go on the wiki though
Jul 10 15:56:36 <ScaredyCat> s/nooed/needs/
Jul 10 15:56:37 <apt> ScaredyCat meant: needs to go on the wiki though
Jul 10 15:56:48 <ScaredyCat> ~botsnack
Jul 10 15:56:48 <apt> ScaredyCat: :)
Jul 10 15:57:37 <aloril> ScaredyCat: catched up now, I was too fast with that 1820 line ;-)
Jul 10 15:59:45 <Shoragan> ScaredyCat, there should be an update in svn soon which fixes the build-problem
Jul 10 16:00:56 <delinka> "the build problem" - which one?
Jul 10 16:01:10 <Shoragan> uboot-gta01 fails to patch correctly
Jul 10 16:01:22 <delinka> ah
Jul 10 16:06:29 <wansti> does anyone know why there's no sound with the image built from the latest revision(s)?
Jul 10 16:07:00 <hrw> lack of sound modules in image probably
Jul 10 16:07:45 * mickeyl launches a new build#
Jul 10 16:08:47 <TRIsoft> Duck and cover :-)
Jul 10 16:09:30 <wansti> maybe... there's no sound at all, no ringing, no startup sound, and it stays silent when you're trying to call... i don't know what's supposed to be working by now, though
Jul 10 16:09:46 <delinka> I'm running the emulator in qemu and clicking doesn't simulate touching the touchscreen - what can I do about this?
Jul 10 16:11:23 <CIA-24> openmoko: 03mickey * r2375 10/trunk/src/target/u-boot/patches/uboot-dfu.patch: uboot-dfu.patch: resync with upstream, fixes #635. Thanks Jan "Shoragan" Luebbe for the patch.
Jul 10 16:11:37 <galexande> yay
Jul 10 16:11:39 <galexande> thanks
Jul 10 16:11:44 <woglinde> hehe
Jul 10 16:14:52 <ScaredyCat> yaaaay!!!!
Jul 10 16:15:26 <wansti> hey stefan_schmidt
Jul 10 16:15:27 <Shoragan> hi stefan
Jul 10 16:15:35 <wansti> how's France?
Jul 10 16:15:39 <stefan_schmidt> hi guys
Jul 10 16:15:53 <stefan_schmidt> wansti: busy
Jul 10 16:15:57 <stefan_schmidt> wansti: ;)
Jul 10 16:16:09 <stefan_schmidt> wansti: Should be better now. Talk is done and I still have three more days
Jul 10 16:16:48 <wansti> yay :-)
Jul 10 16:16:58 <stefan_schmidt> My notebook did not work with the beamer and we switched the talks to get something working.
Jul 10 16:17:35 <stefan_schmidt> I was to fast and my spoken english really needs apolish
Jul 10 16:17:55 <stefan_schmidt> But besides that it mostly went well. Some discussion afterwards. Interested people
Jul 10 16:18:09 <happycube> cool :)
Jul 10 16:19:00 <stefan_schmidt> BTW, it's the Jule Verne university. I love his books. Need to take a look at the JV museum though
Jul 10 16:20:39 <stefan_schmidt> wansti: How is BS?
Jul 10 16:20:52 <wansti> stefan_schmidt: busy :-)
Jul 10 16:21:06 <stefan_schmidt> wansti: heh, your kidding
Jul 10 16:21:13 <mickeyl> stefan_schmidt: hey! how was your talk?
Jul 10 16:21:15 <wansti> i got that big exam on thursday. i wish i was
Jul 10 16:21:17 <stefan_schmidt> wansti: Uni or the OpenMoko sound theme
Jul 10 16:22:10 <stefan_schmidt> mickeyl: Could have been better. Needed another notebook because mine refused the beamer. Spoken english needs to be better too, but besides that it should was ok
Jul 10 16:22:21 <stefan_schmidt> wansti: Crossing fingers
Jul 10 16:22:34 <mickeyl> stefan_schmidt: ~lart projectors
Jul 10 16:22:35 <wansti> stefan_schmidt: thanks. openmoko sounds is next on my agenda
Jul 10 16:22:58 <stefan_schmidt> mickeyl: I'm looking forward to 3 nice days in france
Jul 10 16:23:23 <stefan_schmidt> ~90% of the talks are in french anyway and I don't understand french. :)
Jul 10 16:23:24 <apt> okay, stefan_schmidt
Jul 10 16:23:37 <stefan_schmidt> ~90%
Jul 10 16:23:38 <apt> 0.9
Jul 10 16:23:54 <stefan_schmidt> apt: Take a break
Jul 10 16:23:57 <mickeyl> stefan_schmidt: that sucks a bit
Jul 10 16:24:11 <mickeyl> stefan_schmidt: but I'd rather be there than here
Jul 10 16:24:17 <stefan_schmidt> mickeyl: jup
Jul 10 16:24:21 * mickeyl loves French street cafes
Jul 10 16:24:26 <stefan_schmidt> mickeyl: Why? Busy at home?
Jul 10 16:24:28 <stefan_schmidt> ah
Jul 10 16:24:47 <mickeyl> busy plus kind of reluctant to work
Jul 10 16:24:53 <mickeyl> not a good match :D
Jul 10 16:24:54 <stefan_schmidt> mickeyl: ieee
Jul 10 16:25:36 <stefan_schmidt> mickeyl: Any news on Sean about GUADEC? As zecke seems to let us hang I like to know if I should cancel the second room
Jul 10 16:27:30 <ynezz> order ACK anyone? :)
Jul 10 16:27:37 <mickeyl> stefan_schmidt: can't say for sure. the worst thing is we cancel it when we're there. might need to pay for one night, but that should be ok
Jul 10 16:27:55 <mickeyl> stefan_schmidt: we have three rooms or two?
Jul 10 16:28:41 <stefan_schmidt> mickeyl: We had three. One for alphaone and gf, this one I canceled already.
Jul 10 16:28:55 <mickeyl> huh?
Jul 10 16:28:57 <mickeyl> why thatß
Jul 10 16:28:57 <mickeyl> ?
Jul 10 16:29:07 <stefan_schmidt> mickeyl: Long story
Jul 10 16:29:10 <mickeyl> ok
Jul 10 16:29:18 <mickeyl> anyway. so both won't come?
Jul 10 16:29:26 <stefan_schmidt> mickeyl: In short both will be in the same hotel anyway. :)
Jul 10 16:29:36 <stefan_schmidt> mickeyl: uh, sorry. No both will come.
Jul 10 16:29:47 <mickeyl> ah, but they have a seperate room?
Jul 10 16:29:48 <stefan_schmidt> mickeyl: Just some internal problem.
Jul 10 16:30:05 <stefan_schmidt> mickeyl: Yes, in the same hotel. Don't ask. ;)
Jul 10 16:30:10 <mickeyl> ok, i won't
Jul 10 16:30:25 <mickeyl> so now it's you and me and perhaps Sean
Jul 10 16:30:26 <stefan_schmidt> heh
Jul 10 16:30:29 <mickeyl> and mega-perhaps Zecke
Jul 10 16:30:31 <stefan_schmidt> right
Jul 10 16:30:46 <stefan_schmidt> I think zecke already decided against it?
Jul 10 16:31:15 <jpcass> i guess you'll be bringing some samples to birmingham?
Jul 10 16:31:24 <Shoragan> stefan, which tty is correct for gsm? and how do i restart gsmd and verify it's working?
Jul 10 16:31:35 <mickeyl> ttyS0
Jul 10 16:31:43 <mickeyl> tail -f /tmp/gsm.log
Jul 10 16:31:58 <stefan_schmidt> jpcass: Yes, we bring our phones.
Jul 10 16:32:03 <Shoragan> ttySAC0?
Jul 10 16:32:33 <mickeyl> yes, sac0
Jul 10 16:32:46 <jpcass> excellent, it will be good to see one alive! - any possibility to buy one there and then ?
Jul 10 16:32:50 <stefan_schmidt> Shoragan: What are you doing
Jul 10 16:32:53 <mickeyl> i'm so busy I even had no time to play with my gta02
Jul 10 16:32:55 <mickeyl> sigh
Jul 10 16:32:59 <stefan_schmidt> jpcass: sorry, no
Jul 10 16:33:01 <SpeedEvil> :/
Jul 10 16:33:15 * SpeedEvil passes mickeyl 2 and a half hours.
Jul 10 16:33:26 <stefan_schmidt> mickeyl: I know it would have been better to send it to me. ;)
Jul 10 16:33:38 <Shoragan> stefan, trying to get sound while a call is connected, and now it lost contact with the gsm :/
Jul 10 16:33:56 <stefan_schmidt> Shoragan: :(
Jul 10 16:34:06 <stefan_schmidt> Shoragan: No alphaone wizard around?
Jul 10 16:34:10 <Shoragan> no
Jul 10 16:34:36 <happycube> is fic having cert. problems getting phones from taiwan->europe for sale?
Jul 10 16:34:39 <happycube> or is it just slow?
Jul 10 16:34:52 <alphaone> huh?
Jul 10 16:34:56 <Shoragan> echo 0 > /sys/devices/platform/gta01-pm-gsm.0/power_on and the echo 1 > ... should reboot the GSM?
Jul 10 16:35:06 <mickeyl> stefan_schmidt: hehe
Jul 10 16:35:20 <alphaone> A wizzard precisely arrives when he means to :-)
Jul 10 16:35:30 <wansti> lol alphaone
Jul 10 16:35:31 <stefan_schmidt> alphaone: heh
Jul 10 16:35:35 <Shoragan> alphaone, you need to look at your jabber
Jul 10 16:38:31 <stefan_schmidt> Shoragan: A wizzard precisely looks when he means to ;)
Jul 10 16:38:37 <Shoragan> :(
Jul 10 16:39:05 * stefan_schmidt pokes Shoragan for a grin:)
Jul 10 16:39:18 <Shoragan> ^_^
Jul 10 16:39:26 <stefan_schmidt> Wow, one day no internet and you are total uninformed
Jul 10 16:39:39 <alphaone> Shoragan: Yeah, I know of that problem. Seems to be gsmd
Jul 10 16:39:39 <alphaone> Shoragan: I only fixed the problem when gsm serial would not be enabled at all, the other problem still remains..
Jul 10 16:39:43 <alphaone> I thought about looking at gsmd, but I have work to follow up on the keyboard
Jul 10 16:39:53 <alphaone> Shoragan: And once that keyboard ist working all you need to do to call someone is fire up that console ;-9
Jul 10 16:40:03 <alphaone> stefan_schmidt: ?
Jul 10 16:40:30 <stefan_schmidt> alphaone: ??
Jul 10 16:40:47 <stefan_schmidt> alphaone: I just made fun of your sentence, nothing more. :)
Jul 10 16:40:50 <alphaone> With my gf in Flensburg I might even get some work done the next couple days :-)
Jul 10 16:40:58 * stefan_schmidt is tired but happy
Jul 10 16:41:12 * wansti is happy but tired
Jul 10 16:41:50 <mickeyl> now tell me something
Jul 10 16:41:55 <LarstiQ> any people located in or close to the Netherlands around wanting to share shipping costs?
Jul 10 16:42:03 <mickeyl> how did you come up with that crazy "can i has a neo" idea? :D
Jul 10 16:42:14 * alphaone has antidepressants and caffeine medication ;-)
Jul 10 16:42:30 <stefan_schmidt> mickeyl: from the loldebain on p.d.o
Jul 10 16:42:39 <alphaone> mickeyl: Seeing loldebian got me onto it.
Jul 10 16:42:41 <wansti> ...and a roommate without self esteem :-p
Jul 10 16:42:49 * k-s[WORK] is away: lunch
Jul 10 16:43:00 <don-o> stefan_schmidt: the photo (especially the lower lip) looks appropriately pathetic
Jul 10 16:43:10 <alphaone> And then I remembered wansti had killed his phone
Jul 10 16:43:34 <stefan_schmidt> don-o: wansti is just an actor and model. ;)
Jul 10 16:43:52 <wansti> first comment i got from a female: "you look adorable and pathetic" :-)
Jul 10 16:44:08 <alphaone> heh
Jul 10 16:44:14 <don-o> mickeyl: (assuming im talking to the right person :) thank you for using an episode of battlestar galactica in the youtube clip about video playback on the moko. watching BSG is my main interest in the phone :)
Jul 10 16:47:41 <stefan_schmidt> For people not at RMLL: http://people.openmoko.org/stefan/openezx-pres.pdf
Jul 10 16:48:13 <mickeyl> i have broken my a1200 :D
Jul 10 16:48:21 <mickeyl> (talking about ezx)
Jul 10 16:48:27 <stefan_schmidt> mickeyl: outch
Jul 10 16:48:44 <stefan_schmidt> mickeyl: I was not even aware you have one?
Jul 10 16:48:52 <stefan_schmidt> mickeyl: Bought in .tw?
Jul 10 16:49:13 <mickeyl> stefan_schmidt: i brought one with me from .tw. it might not be bricked permanently, however i tried to flash all different kinds of firmware and all act the same. battery reading and SIM not working
Jul 10 16:49:40 <stefan_schmidt> mickeyl: Who needs battery and SIM, cought
Jul 10 16:49:54 <stefan_schmidt> mickeyl: Let us take a closer look at GUADEC
Jul 10 16:51:48 <mickeyl> nice presentation
Jul 10 16:51:55 <mickeyl> stefan_schmidt: ok, i'll bring it with me then
Jul 10 16:52:24 <stefan_schmidt> mickeyl: thanks
Jul 10 16:52:52 <stefan_schmidt> mickeyl: (a1200) Not sure if I'm a help, but it would not hurd
Jul 10 16:52:57 <stefan_schmidt> hurt
Jul 10 16:54:14 <Elrond> Evening people.
Jul 10 16:54:26 <stefan_schmidt> hi Elrond 
Jul 10 16:54:27 <alphaone> hi Elrond 
Jul 10 16:58:49 <Aria> ing, sam?
Jul 10 17:00:17 <alphaone> warning, playing with alsamixer during phone operation may be hazardous for your health :-)
Jul 10 17:01:31 <Elrond> mickeyl - I can take your gta02 too. ;o)
Jul 10 17:02:34 <stefan_schmidt> Elrond: You already took my GTA01 ;)
Jul 10 17:03:01 <pjz> I just realized why the A1200 looks so familiar... it looks like an Agena PDA!
Jul 10 17:03:54 <Elrond> stefan_schmidt - "took" sounds like I would have stolen it. ;o)
Jul 10 17:04:07 <stefan_schmidt> Elrond: heh, just kidding. :)
Jul 10 17:04:26 <devestate> With regards to the GTA02 how is the search for a wireless chip going?
Jul 10 17:04:27 <aloril> GTA02 (P2) will have WiFi (Atheros AR6K): http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973  http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ#Q:_What_is_the_rationale_behind_the_exclusion_of_WiFi.3F
Jul 10 17:05:19 <stefan_schmidt> devestate: done, it's a Atheros 6000
Jul 10 17:05:44 <stefan_schmidt> devestate: SDIO based with complete open drivers. (Moved it into firmware)
Jul 10 17:05:48 <devestate> stefan: sweet thanks
Jul 10 17:05:57 <gcb77> aloril: was that a script answer or was it you?
Jul 10 17:06:06 <stefan_schmidt> devestate: you are welcome
Jul 10 17:06:20 <Elrond> stefan_schmidt - Like I was kidding :-)
Jul 10 17:06:24 * stefan_schmidt is off for some time. Later.
Jul 10 17:06:31 <pjz> later stefan_schmidt 
Jul 10 17:06:34 <alphaone> bye stefan_schmidt 
Jul 10 17:06:37 <wansti> later stefan
Jul 10 17:07:50 <Elrond> Later stefan_schmidt 
Jul 10 17:08:18 <bartel> wireless on gta2?
Jul 10 17:09:12 <Elrond> bartel - Yes, 99% likelihood.
Jul 10 17:09:16 <Aria> bartel: AR6K based
Jul 10 17:11:48 <Shoragan> huh? my neo just switched off it's screen, while i was using it
Jul 10 17:13:20 <gcb77> MY Neo is just frozen... nothing works... oh wait, its just a cardboard cutout :(
Jul 10 17:13:39 <Elrond> gcb77 - ;o)
Jul 10 17:15:07 <galexande> shoragan, that'll show you
Jul 10 17:15:27 <Shoragan> :/
Jul 10 17:15:44 <don-o> lol@gcb77
Jul 10 17:38:28 <aloril> (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Terminal]] [[Terminal/it]] [[Top_Panel/it]] [[Top_Panel]] [[Wishlist:Profiles]] [[Footer/it]] [[Footer]] [[User:Freak3dot]] [[Talk:Shipping_Notes]] [[Wishlist:Human_screening]] [[Picture_Viewer]] [[Picture_Viewer/it]] [[Wishlist:Tagging]] and other changes
Jul 10 17:43:36 * k-s[AWAY_WORK] is back.
Jul 10 17:49:47 <don-o> win 6
Jul 10 17:53:19 <aloril2> gcb77: it was scripted reply (about wifi)
Jul 10 17:55:06 <daMaestro> counter?
Jul 10 17:55:06 <aloril> "/msg aloril counter?" for actual long message, giving short version here: (last update 2007-07-10 13:43) http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter : Order https://direct.openmoko.com/ ; Shipping prob. 60% in a week, a day 18:04:49 (8.753±3.0 days) (1728;246)
Jul 10 17:56:20 <galexande> i want a ups trackingnumber
Jul 10 17:56:42 <daMaestro> you won't get one until they get state side
Jul 10 17:56:42 <woglinde> hihi
Jul 10 17:57:16 <daMaestro> i would highly doubt they are going to china -> [ups] -> CA, US -> [ups] -> you
Jul 10 17:57:44 <daMaestro> and say: here; tracking number for all the moko's [tracknum] .... and then your's [tacknum]
Jul 10 17:57:56 <galexande> that would be awesome
Jul 10 17:57:58 <daMaestro> lol
Jul 10 17:58:11 <daMaestro> yea! damnit! ... i want the tracking number to all the mokos!
Jul 10 17:58:24 <daMaestro> just so i can call UPS every day and ask them when i can get my moko
Jul 10 17:58:29 <galexande> it seems like all we need is someone on the inside in china customs, and we could liberate the whole batch
Jul 10 17:58:43 <daMaestro> are we really stuck at customs right now?
Jul 10 17:58:51 <galexande> that was the news on saturday evening
Jul 10 17:59:03 <galexande> i bet there won't be any more news until it's actually stateside
Jul 10 17:59:34 <daMaestro> i wonder if they will tell us when the first 1,000 are out the door
Jul 10 17:59:49 <daMaestro> aka, "look... you have spoken; we are out of them... making more now!"
Jul 10 18:00:00 <daMaestro> "keep ordering!"
Jul 10 18:00:02 <daMaestro> ;-D
Jul 10 18:00:02 <jseghers> It would be cool to know how many have been ordered
Jul 10 18:00:30 <jseghers> my company ordered 2 advances and one base :)
Jul 10 18:00:33 <galexande> i don't envy whoever has to go down the list dealing with duplicates and so on
Jul 10 18:00:48 <daMaestro> considering this is just a developer device... i think FIC is going to be able to point to openmoko and just flat out say "look, here... see here... this... that *bottom line* thing.... look it's right here"
Jul 10 18:00:49 <daMaestro> lol
Jul 10 18:00:58 <sannes> I guess next news will be getting "your order is sent, here is the tracking number"..
Jul 10 18:01:36 <daMaestro> so, we should setup a community based "unbrick my device" service
Jul 10 18:01:55 <daMaestro> i'm just at a loss as to what to do if i manage to brick my device.... and i didn't buy the advanced
Jul 10 18:02:27 <jseghers> I'm sure that someone near you with an Advance would reflash it for you.
Jul 10 18:02:29 <galexande> daemaestro, you'll have to mail it to someone or convince fic to ship you the jtag board
Jul 10 18:02:36 <sannes> heh, if anyone in Norway needs unbricking I actually did order the advanced
Jul 10 18:02:53 <daMaestro> galexande, see above comment ^
Jul 10 18:03:08 <jseghers> I'm in Seattle
Jul 10 18:03:09 <galexande> damaestro, my plan (shhh i don't want anyone to steal my idea) is to not brick the device
Jul 10 18:03:23 <daMaestro> aka... a list on the wiki with "i'm willing to unbrick yer device... email me [here]"
Jul 10 18:03:27 * gcb77 in Seattle as well, hopefully with a board
Jul 10 18:03:40 <daMaestro> galexande, same here
Jul 10 18:03:41 <galexande> when HP/compaq started handhelds.org, they offered to unbrick any devices for free
Jul 10 18:03:58 <galexande> not quite as cool as selling a jtag board, but a good start
Jul 10 18:04:01 <jseghers> galexande: Is that your super-secret plan? the one we shouldn't tell anyone? :)
Jul 10 18:04:12 <galexande> jseghers, SHH!! stop drawing attention
Jul 10 18:05:06 <galexande> anyways, i never needed it for my ipaq, and compaq's bootldr is not nearly as cool as uboot.  i'm sure maybe one of us will have trouble.
Jul 10 18:05:30 <juco> #2903
Jul 10 18:05:44 <juco> I'm thinking I didn't make the first round cut
Jul 10 18:05:45 <sannes> I think it would be very unlikely for normal users to actually brick it..
Jul 10 18:05:48 <daMaestro> galexande, well.. i might just have to break down and buy the jtag stuff
Jul 10 18:05:55 <galexande> juco, sorry
Jul 10 18:05:56 <daMaestro> sannes, i'm not normal
Jul 10 18:05:57 <malsyned> Will it be possible to give OpenMoko the ability to interface with voicemail systems like the iPhone does, or is that interface undocumented and proprietary to Apple/AT&T?
Jul 10 18:05:57 <daMaestro> lol
Jul 10 18:06:08 <woglinde> lol
Jul 10 18:06:09 <daMaestro> malsyned, sure (afaik)
Jul 10 18:06:09 <sannes> all that has to work is the bootloader to be able to restore kernel + userspace
Jul 10 18:06:11 <juco> but that gives you an idea of how many have been ordered
Jul 10 18:06:22 <woglinde> jucoyes thanks
Jul 10 18:06:27 <sannes> daMaestro: hehe :) me neither
Jul 10 18:06:47 <malsyned> daMaestro: as far as you know, the interface is documented so that other phones will be able to use it?
Jul 10 18:06:48 <galexande> malsyned, i think it's undocumented and proprietary, but it might be decipherable
Jul 10 18:07:06 <galexande> i'll be excited if we can even get voicemail notification to work :)
Jul 10 18:07:27 <mjr> hmh, around here we get notifications via sms...
Jul 10 18:07:28 <malsyned> galexande: reverse-engineering it would be nice, but that still means it would only work with AT&T.
Jul 10 18:07:42 <juco> I don't think it will work
Jul 10 18:07:43 <jeddy3> ok, that makes something like 1040 tickets yet
Jul 10 18:07:56 <juco> as it is part of "iphone service"
Jul 10 18:07:57 <daMaestro> i thought voicemail was a standard part of gsm?
Jul 10 18:08:05 <juco> which is somehow different than regular data service
Jul 10 18:08:22 <woglinde> jo zecke
Jul 10 18:08:25 <zecke> hi
Jul 10 18:08:26 <juco> the iphone downloads voicemails as digital files
Jul 10 18:08:33 <daMaestro> meh, i expect att to be LAME about the moko.. so i'm going with tmobile i think
Jul 10 18:09:10 <daMaestro> att stands to make a lot of money with the iPhone... so i doubt we will be able to "freely" hack open the cool voicemail browsing, etc
Jul 10 18:09:17 <malsyned> in the US, will we have to get some cheap "free" phone with a plan and then transfer the SIM card?  I'm actually pretty new to cell phones in general, but as I understand it nobody's interested in just selling you a SIM card in this country
Jul 10 18:09:20 <juco> someone could get the neo 1973 approved as an at&t device
Jul 10 18:09:47 <daMaestro> malsyned, you can get an activated sim from most stores
Jul 10 18:09:49 <juco> which would keep them from blocking the imei range
Jul 10 18:09:51 <gcb77> some day... not only will you get notified of voice mail... it will do speech-to-text and show you the voicemail (or so I hope)
Jul 10 18:09:52 <galexande> malsyned, yeah...some providers will sell a sim card...like O2 will give you a naked sim for $15, but tracfone will give you a sim and phone for $10 :)
Jul 10 18:10:03 <galexande> at&t will sell you a phone as low as $20
Jul 10 18:10:15 <juco> or free with a contract
Jul 10 18:10:17 <galexande> i think if you sign a contract, they'll give you a sim no problemo
Jul 10 18:10:30 <galexande> gcb, you're insane
Jul 10 18:10:30 <daMaestro> i'm going prepay all the way
Jul 10 18:10:41 <mjr> free phones are never free
Jul 10 18:10:45 <galexande> yeah at&t's prepay specifically says it does data, so i'm excitated.
Jul 10 18:10:49 <daMaestro> and i am going to probe the network(s) -- as much as i can --
Jul 10 18:10:57 <daMaestro> galexande, yeah.... i'm ... umm
Jul 10 18:11:00 <daMaestro> galexande, torn
Jul 10 18:11:00 <malsyned> AT&T and T-Mobile are the only nation-wide GSM providers in the US, right?
Jul 10 18:11:07 <daMaestro> malsyned, basically..
Jul 10 18:11:13 <daMaestro> malsyned, all the others are just rebrands
Jul 10 18:11:31 <daMaestro> galexande, $0.01/KB right?
Jul 10 18:11:51 <galexande> damaestro, yeah, or $20/mo for unlimited
Jul 10 18:12:00 <daMaestro> galexande, on prepay?
Jul 10 18:12:10 <galexande> damaestro, they have two types of prepay...by the minute and by the month
Jul 10 18:12:16 <mjr> that's a decent price for unlimited
Jul 10 18:12:27 <daMaestro> galexande, this is the blackberry inet?
Jul 10 18:12:39 <daMaestro> galexande, yea.. where you pay like $1/day when you actually use your phone?
Jul 10 18:12:42 <malsyned> galexande: that's AT&T you're talking about?
Jul 10 18:12:43 <juco> you have to pay $30/month to get the $20/month unlimited data
Jul 10 18:12:46 <daMaestro> malsyned, yes
Jul 10 18:12:49 <galexande> for $30/mo you get 200 minutes and discounted minute rate, for $20/mo you get unlimited data
Jul 10 18:12:50 <malsyned> huh.
Jul 10 18:12:51 <malsyned> cool
Jul 10 18:13:11 <daMaestro> ok.. yeah.. wiki page. it seems like others have been reading anything they can find on the actual prepay plans out there
Jul 10 18:13:23 <daMaestro> most of the "hip" prepay services are cdma in the states
Jul 10 18:13:39 <daMaestro> aka.. the carriers that are like: "sure... use the internet... why do we care, it's not our network"
Jul 10 18:13:39 <daMaestro> lol
Jul 10 18:13:54 <galexande> yeah, none of the gsm ones offer anything more than the choice between $20 for 150 minutes or $40 for 300 minutes
Jul 10 18:13:56 <galexande> what variety!
Jul 10 18:14:20 <daMaestro> well.. go with the $100 prepay account with tmobile if you go tmobile
Jul 10 18:14:31 <galexande> there's a sprint rebrand that offers basically the iphone plans, but a little cheaper
Jul 10 18:15:11 <daMaestro> my understanding is that you can get WAP access for $5.95/m ... the 1000 minutes are valid for a year.. and with your WAP account you can access one of their proxy servers and tunnel to your own private proxy server ... and thus have full internet
Jul 10 18:15:26 <galexande> heh, that's crazy
Jul 10 18:15:28 <woglinde> damaestro hihi
Jul 10 18:15:32 <galexande> i'd rather just get a real unlimited data plan, i think
Jul 10 18:15:35 <daMaestro> hello woglinde 
Jul 10 18:15:44 <malsyned> daMaestro: those rebranded networks are mostly just Verizon, right?
Jul 10 18:15:49 <woglinde> hm wap needs dns too?
Jul 10 18:15:51 <daMaestro> verizon and sprint
Jul 10 18:15:59 <daMaestro> which are both cdma
Jul 10 18:16:01 <woglinde> than you can always tunnel the dns
Jul 10 18:16:03 <daMaestro> woglinde, yes
Jul 10 18:16:09 <woglinde> hihi
Jul 10 18:16:11 <galexande> woglinde, i think wap essentially tunnels entire HTTP requests
Jul 10 18:16:15 <galexande> and the proxy is responsible for name lookup
Jul 10 18:16:19 <malsyned> how is package management handled in OpenMoko?
Jul 10 18:16:22 <daMaestro> woglinde, correct... you basically runnel *everything* to your proxy (SOCKS(
Jul 10 18:16:25 <galexande> malsyned, openembedded.org
Jul 10 18:16:27 <daMaestro> hmm s/(/)/
Jul 10 18:16:29 <woglinde> malsyned ipkg
Jul 10 18:16:45 <daMaestro> tunnel*
Jul 10 18:16:47 <daMaestro> grr
Jul 10 18:17:17 <malsyned> so the Application Manager (http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Application_Manager) would interface with ipkg?
Jul 10 18:17:42 <woglinde> hm 2 or 4 year ago you could trick out some providers in germany to get internet acces for nothing
Jul 10 18:17:51 <woglinde> malsyned yes frontend
Jul 10 18:18:35 <galexande> so, why are we still using scrollbars
Jul 10 18:19:08 <galexande> as i see it instead of GtkList we should be using a list where if you click on an item, that's button 1.  if you drag left, that's button 2, drag right = button3, drag up/down = scroll whole list
Jul 10 18:19:34 <malsyned> does that have some kind of idea of "applications" vs "Packages" like the Ubuntu Add/Remove Applications program?  I doubt end-users will want to scroll through a big list of libraries they've never heard of just to uninstall a game they were trying out.
Jul 10 18:19:50 <galexande> i mean, thhis is a 283dpi screen, your typical 20-pixel-wide scrollbars are needle-tiny.  i've watched video of the devs fumbling with their styluses...
Jul 10 18:20:03 <malsyned> galexande: and to hell with Drag & Drop?
Jul 10 18:20:20 <woglinde> malsyned ipkg is derivated from dpkg
Jul 10 18:20:28 <galexande> malsyned, look at Filter Menu in the wiki
Jul 10 18:20:57 <galexande> malsyned, does drag and drop make any sense on a phone interface?
Jul 10 18:21:04 <galexande> on a tiny-tiny screen
Jul 10 18:21:36 <galexande> i mean, there's no trashcan in the corner to drag an applicaiton to, from the application list
Jul 10 18:21:51 <galexande> in other words, does the iphone have drag and drop? (for reference, os x uses drag and drop for *everything*()
Jul 10 18:21:55 <jedix> think of how many accidental deletes there would be
Jul 10 18:22:10 <galexande> well, drag-left is the iphone way to delete, it would pop up a modal yes/no
Jul 10 18:22:28 <galexande> the only specific feature we're giving up is highlighting more than one entry, but in apps where that's really useful we could make checkboxes
Jul 10 18:23:10 <galexande> i would have drag-right pop up a menu of options, and center-click just do the default action ("dial" for address book, info/select for app manager)
Jul 10 18:23:17 <jeddy3> i certainly wouldn't miss drag & drop, scrolling makes much more sense
Jul 10 18:23:53 <galexande> i just saw this video of sean moss-pultz holding a phone...and maybe he has big hands, but the screen looks insanely tiny
Jul 10 18:24:02 <galexande> i can barely use scrollbars on my 3.5" diagonal ipaq screen
Jul 10 18:24:32 <flingpoo> Everyone wants a tiny phone with a giant screen.
Jul 10 18:24:43 <galexande> i just want a tiny-screen realistic UI :)
Jul 10 18:25:09 <galexande> there are just so many totally useless GUI widgets on these application mockups
Jul 10 18:25:33 <daMaestro> http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Carriers
Jul 10 18:25:39 <daMaestro> ok... please add your information there.
Jul 10 18:26:01 <daMaestro> i'll work to add the information i know tonight; i'm technically at work right now
Jul 10 18:26:12 <galexande> me too
Jul 10 18:26:27 <devestate> that makes three of us... :P
Jul 10 18:26:55 <galexande> i remember how frustrated i was when matchbox got so extended, but now i'm glad the restructuring got it into a cool project like this
Jul 10 18:27:19 <malsyned> galexande: I don't know if D&D makes sense on a phone interface, I just wanted to point out that it would be lost if we give dragging over to scrolling.  just to take peoples' temperature.
Jul 10 18:27:37 <galexande> malsyned, yeah, i guess we do need to be aware of what functionality we're giving up
Jul 10 18:27:50 <galexande> but i'm really excited at making a totally gutted UI, with none of the draggy things we're used to
Jul 10 18:28:14 <galexande> the only reason openembedded hasn't already done this is probably that most of those devices have D-pads, so scrollies are still managable
Jul 10 18:28:19 <jseghers> One touchpad UI gesture that is used on a lot of laptops is if you drag vertically on the right edge of the pad/screen, it scrolls.  Elsewhere it moves the pointer.
Jul 10 18:28:45 <galexande> jseghers, heh another appleism :)
Jul 10 18:28:54 <malsyned> I rarely see people use D&D even on PCs, so probably most people wouldn't even know they were missing it.  I don't know if there are places where it makes sense on smartphones, but I wonder whether we'll regret having given it up in 10 years when the devices we're using are basically all-screen and have applications where D&D would be a win.
Jul 10 18:29:27 <jseghers> galexande... I've only ever seen it on PC's... but then I don't use Macs... so I don't know where it showed up first.
Jul 10 18:29:30 <galexande> i'm not worried, i've been continually impressed and angered by the open source community's willingness to reinvent itself every other year
Jul 10 18:29:43 <galexande> so we should feel confident to make mistakes that make it good on the neo, at the cost of later extensibility.
Jul 10 18:30:12 <malsyned> galexande: and if it does turn out to be a mistake, we can blame apple for doing it first :P
Jul 10 18:30:27 <galexande> smart
Jul 10 18:30:43 <jseghers> that's the spirit! :)
Jul 10 18:30:53 <jeddy3> galexande, it's not even used on macs...
Jul 10 18:31:32 <malsyned> jeddy3: what, D&D?  I use it all the time on my mac.  The officially-sanctioned method of installing applications includes a D&D step.
Jul 10 18:32:04 <jeddy3> malsyned, no, scrolling on the side of touchbar
Jul 10 18:32:26 <jeddy3> apple use the two-finger-scroll...on recent macs anyway
Jul 10 18:32:27 <malsyned> oh.  yeah, I don't think macs do that.  Mac laptops have two-finger scrolling since the 2nd-to-last gen Powerbooks.
Jul 10 18:32:56 <malsyned> scrolling on the side of the trackpad is a PC laptop thing.
Jul 10 18:34:22 <galexande> well, i was introduced to it on the mac...i bought the last single-touch ibook
Jul 10 18:34:42 <jeddy3> either scrolling by dragging side of moko screen, or simply scrolling by dragging up/down anywhere on screen would be sensible i think...
Jul 10 18:35:02 <malsyned> galexande: do you have to turn that on?  my brother has one of those and I thought he was out of luck for trackpad scrolling.
Jul 10 18:35:20 <galexande> malsyned, i don't know.  i just remember reading about it when i was looking for things to improve about my mac :)
Jul 10 18:37:13 <malsyned> galexande: k.  I'll play with it sometime.  thanks for bringing it up though, I had no idea.
Jul 10 18:37:51 <malsyned> does the scroll indicator on the right of the OpenMoko display operate as a draggable widget right now?
Jul 10 18:38:31 <jeddy3> maybe dragging some distance to scroll, to let you press buttons and prevent you from scrolling by mistake, would be sensible
Jul 10 18:38:33 <galexande> malsyned, http://www.ragingmenace.com/software/sidetrack/index.html
Jul 10 18:39:15 <galexande> i enjoy putting an idea out that i've thought about and seeing other people go through the same thoughts :)
Jul 10 18:39:33 <galexande> it gives me hope that if i try to check it into svn, it might fly
Jul 10 18:39:44 <happycube> http://news.yahoo.com/s/usatoday/20070710/tc_usatoday/newrulescouldrockwirelessworld;_ylt=An5cgjylvXnoY0k6HpGF7dLMWM0F
Jul 10 18:40:17 <dcordes> finnaly you gave the website a new design
Jul 10 18:40:28 <malsyned> Isn't that the same spectrum that Google is rumored to be planning to bid for?
Jul 10 18:40:35 <dcordes> congratulations :)
Jul 10 18:40:51 <happycube> i bet *everyone* is going to bid on it
Jul 10 18:41:15 <happycube> except maybe verizon now. ;)
Jul 10 18:41:20 * galexande offers $50
Jul 10 18:42:32 * delinka bids $50.93
Jul 10 18:43:01 * don-o bids $50.95
Jul 10 18:43:07 * bkruse proxy bids $100
Jul 10 18:43:50 <happycube> :)
Jul 10 18:43:54 <galexande> maybe for $100 you could get 1Hz out of the spectrum :)
Jul 10 18:44:16 <roler> I can't wait for revison 2 of openmoko
Jul 10 18:44:21 <roler> been watching it for a while
Jul 10 18:44:34 <don-o> "mark"
Jul 10 18:44:41 <roler> will be tough to see what I want. iphone v2 (iphone v1 sucks) or openmoko 2
Jul 10 18:45:00 * don-o checks stop watch. 3 days from p1 before longing for p2 officially begins :)
Jul 10 18:45:05 <gcb77> Think https://www.bountysource.com/ would be a good idea for moko features?
Jul 10 18:45:33 <galexande> gcb, you want to fund the bounties?
Jul 10 18:46:29 <gcb77> galexande: I'm sure there's certain features I'd be willing to put up $ for
Jul 10 18:46:54 <gcb77> I'd be happy to cash in for adding some features too
Jul 10 18:47:09 <galexande> well then i'll be interested in your earfull when i get my development environment together :)
Jul 10 18:48:12 <dcordes> where can I browser the current tree?
Jul 10 18:48:22 <don-o> gcb77: woah, the website is an interesting concept.
Jul 10 18:48:24 * SpeedEvil sponsors V12 for $10
Jul 10 18:48:28 <woglinde> dcordes look at wiki?
Jul 10 18:48:45 <zilt> 
Jul 10 18:48:53 <gcb77> Has anyone tried a VMWare (or or other) setup for the dev environment?
Jul 10 18:49:09 <SpeedEvil> qemu
Jul 10 18:49:11 <woglinde> gcb77 look at wiki
Jul 10 18:49:11 <SpeedEvil> commonly
Jul 10 18:49:21 <galexande> dcordes, http://svn.openmoko.org/
Jul 10 18:49:29 <don-o> gcb77: ive built openmoko on parallels -> ubuntu
Jul 10 18:49:48 <gcb77> don-o: cool, does it work well?
Jul 10 18:49:51 <galexande> gcb, it shouldn't care too much what sort of host it's running on
Jul 10 18:50:08 <ferric> don-o: you can get the openembedded crosscompiler/toolchain working on os x, yes?
Jul 10 18:50:21 <gcb77> lol, I've been trying to get it running on openSuSE 10.2
Jul 10 18:50:25 <gcb77> for the last 2 weeks
Jul 10 18:50:43 <don-o> ferric: ive heard that but im more comfortable with ubuntu :)
Jul 10 18:50:55 <galexande> ferric, it's certainly possible but it has a lot of dependencies on tools you would probably have to manually hunt down and install on os x
Jul 10 18:50:55 <ferric> you're running parallels on windows?
Jul 10 18:51:04 <ferric> galexande: thought as much
Jul 10 18:51:06 <gcb77> I finally gave in and I installed Ubuntu in VMWare, and now I'm setting up the makefile
Jul 10 18:51:09 * ferric might go the parallels way, as well
Jul 10 18:51:25 <don-o> ferric: os x -> parallels -> ubuntu -> qemu -> openmoko. hows that for virtualization. :)
Jul 10 18:51:39 <ferric> don-o: fucked up. :-)
Jul 10 18:51:48 * don-o grins
Jul 10 18:51:56 <uber_mort> why not just Q -> openmoko?
Jul 10 18:52:14 <dcordes> galexande, I'm looking for the full oe tree
Jul 10 18:52:26 <dcordes> with all packages that can be built for om
Jul 10 18:52:41 <galexande> dcordes, most of the rest is on openembedded.org somewhere
Jul 10 18:53:10 <dcordes> galexande, so I can build all OE recipes for OM?
Jul 10 18:53:22 <galexande> dcordes, sorry i don't know :)
Jul 10 18:53:34 <galexande> i'm still trying to figure out if openembedded is the new name of 'familiar' :)
Jul 10 18:54:06 <dcordes> familiar is a distro for handhelds
Jul 10 18:54:17 <dcordes> obsolete one
Jul 10 18:54:36 <galexande> ah, debian -> familiar, debian -> openzaurus, openzaurus -> openembedded, openembedded -> openmoko
Jul 10 18:54:37 <woglinde> galexande no
Jul 10 18:54:37 <galexande> family tree
Jul 10 18:54:50 <dcordes> ?
Jul 10 18:55:32 <woglinde> galexande not really
Jul 10 18:55:39 <galexande> i still run familiar :)
Jul 10 18:55:43 <dcordes> :-(
Jul 10 18:55:52 <woglinde> openembedded is a repository with recipes
Jul 10 18:55:53 <dcordes> galexande, on what?
Jul 10 18:56:02 <woglinde> that you can build with bitbake
Jul 10 18:56:10 <woglinde> into serval distributions
Jul 10 18:56:18 <galexande> ipaq h3765 circa 2002
Jul 10 18:56:41 <ferric> i remember hacking the ipaq using familiar 2 years ago, when the touchscreen wouldn't work and the wifi chipset kep dying
Jul 10 18:56:43 <dcordes> galexande, you should switch to angstrom. my personal recommendation.
Jul 10 18:56:57 <galexande> just upgrading to the "new" version of familiar is far more excitement than i desire
Jul 10 18:57:12 <galexande> i don't have much use for a palmtop without SD :)
Jul 10 18:57:17 <ferric> like the h5555 came out and it was all cool
Jul 10 18:57:44 <malsyned> does the p1 that just got released on the neo dev release contain everything that the roadmap here http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Applications said it would?
Jul 10 18:58:14 <galexande> question = user-mode software? answer = no.
Jul 10 18:58:31 <woglinde> malsyned I fear no
Jul 10 18:59:01 <woglinde> malsyned from what I see it is btw. phase 0 and phase1
Jul 10 18:59:55 <galexande> really, i think that palmtops should act more like palmos than like X, even with matchbox
Jul 10 19:00:22 <dcordes> galexande, use opie then
Jul 10 19:00:27 <mjr> X doesn't act, even with matchbox
Jul 10 19:00:33 <galexande> like, there should be no distinguishing between switch-to-appX and launch-appX
Jul 10 19:00:51 <ferric> has anyone used the trolltech greenphone here?
Jul 10 19:01:03 <galexande> nah, i am a developer so i'm gonna get used to the awful UI, i'm just saying, if we want to make the best smartphone :)
Jul 10 19:01:04 <woglinde> ferric yes
Jul 10 19:01:09 <ferric> woglinde: review?
Jul 10 19:01:33 <woglinde> ferric it works nice
Jul 10 19:01:41 <woglinde> do phone calls sms all the stuff
Jul 10 19:01:50 <ferric> but it isn't as open as the neo?
Jul 10 19:01:55 <ferric> (and no touchscreen)
Jul 10 19:01:55 <woglinde> ferric right
Jul 10 19:02:01 <woglinde> it has touchscreen
Jul 10 19:02:18 <ferric> ah
Jul 10 19:02:25 <dcordes> it has qt :/
Jul 10 19:02:35 <ferric> i didn't even hear as much about the greenphone and its been out for a while
Jul 10 19:02:43 <woglinde> but today the battery was really hot and I dont know why
Jul 10 19:02:52 <ferric> qt is much nicer than gtk as a development platform, from a licensing perspective... dunno.
Jul 10 19:03:33 <woglinde> hm damn it
Jul 10 19:03:37 <woglinde> now it dont turn on
Jul 10 19:03:56 <woglinde> ah
Jul 10 19:03:57 <woglinde> now
Jul 10 19:03:59 <woglinde> puh
Jul 10 19:04:01 <SpeedEvil> woglinde: got a spare battery?
Jul 10 19:04:01 <dcordes> I don't like the colour
Jul 10 19:04:24 <woglinde> speedevil no
Jul 10 19:04:26 <SpeedEvil> woglinde: Is this a P1 you have?
Jul 10 19:04:40 <woglinde> speedevil a phase1 greenphone?
Jul 10 19:04:45 <woglinde> *g*
Jul 10 19:04:45 <SpeedEvil> woglinde: oh
Jul 10 19:04:59 <guerby> no confirmation email after 2 days and no answer from sales@openmoko after one day, I guess no P1 for me :/
Jul 10 19:05:00 <SpeedEvil> woglinde: you probably shouldn't post about that on the hardware mailing list :)
Jul 10 19:05:22 <SpeedEvil> woglinde: oh - on reflection, you should prolly mail TT about it. Hot battery = bad.
Jul 10 19:05:26 <woglinde> speedevil about what?
Jul 10 19:05:40 <woglinde> the neo battery gots hot too
Jul 10 19:05:54 <SpeedEvil> depends how hot you mean.
Jul 10 19:05:58 <woglinde> yeah
Jul 10 19:06:08 <woglinde> greenphone was hotter
Jul 10 19:06:40 <ferric> guerby: you'll get yours, they're probably slammed with new order
Jul 10 19:06:41 <ferric> s
Jul 10 19:07:04 <dcordes> I think I will get rather a neo than a greenphone because I don't like hot batteries
Jul 10 19:07:06 <dcordes> :)
Jul 10 19:07:09 <galexande> they're way past overloaded with new orders
Jul 10 19:07:13 <guerby> ferric, I ordered right at the beginning, all the others got their confirmation email
Jul 10 19:07:22 <MrKeuner> how does the sales go?
Jul 10 19:07:24 <guerby> (sunday night)
Jul 10 19:07:24 <ferric> guerby: the rt confirmation email?
Jul 10 19:07:39 <guerby> ferric, yes didn't get it (so no order number)
Jul 10 19:07:47 <woglinde> mrkeuner better than I thought
Jul 10 19:07:50 <ferric> guerby: weird, i ordered last night and got it
Jul 10 19:08:05 <guerby> ferric, that's why I'm worried :)*
Jul 10 19:08:31 <ferric> yeah... well, they have capacity
Jul 10 19:08:36 <ferric> (apparently)
Jul 10 19:09:18 <juco> capacity?
Jul 10 19:09:48 <dcordes> juco, maybe he means that as in there are enough phones for many poeple that want one
Jul 10 19:10:01 <galexande> i don't think there are :)
Jul 10 19:10:08 <juco> that would be nice, but I thought there were only 1000 produced
Jul 10 19:10:38 <galexande> i mean, i'm sure some of the RT #s are duplicates or unrelated miscellany
Jul 10 19:10:45 <dcordes> 1000 people are many :-) imo
Jul 10 19:10:52 <malsyned> the debug board that comes with the Advanced kit is all that's needed to program the neo? (besides a PC and a Neo)
Jul 10 19:10:54 <galexande> but openmoko got slashdotted all day long, i'm sure there are a lot of orders
Jul 10 19:11:06 <juco> malsyned, the board isn't needed
Jul 10 19:11:43 <galexande> malsyned, you don't need the debug board unless you break uboot, or need jtag for some other reason (hardware/driver dev)
Jul 10 19:14:06 <malsyned> if I've got an AVR jtag debugger that I use on their ATmega chips, is it just a matter of wiring it to the right points on the Neo board, or is it an architecture-specific sort of thing even though they're both called "jtag"?
Jul 10 19:14:59 <bmk789> will AGPS offer similar functionality as any other GPS unit?
Jul 10 19:15:12 <Aria> Yes
Jul 10 19:15:34 <Aria> AGPS just has the ability to quickstart with data of the 'net
Jul 10 19:15:46 <Aria> Regular GPS has to wait for the satellite loop to finish downloading to it
Jul 10 19:15:56 <bmk789> ah, thanks
Jul 10 19:16:06 <mjr> well, in this case AGPS means that
Jul 10 19:16:18 <mjr> you may find other more restricted meanings about also :]
Jul 10 19:17:09 <SpeedEvil> I've fixed the wikipedia article, so it's more accurate :)
Jul 10 19:17:42 <bmk789> so say a google maps application could go straight to the current location?
Jul 10 19:17:46 <SpeedEvil> yes.
Jul 10 19:17:53 <SpeedEvil> Given a network connection.
Jul 10 19:18:22 <bmk789> ok maybe its time for me to learn some programming
Jul 10 19:18:24 <wansti> argh! stupid acoustic feedback! :-/
Jul 10 19:18:42 * SpeedEvil howls at the moon.
Jul 10 19:19:22 <alphaone> wansti: What's the matter?
Jul 10 19:20:01 <FuzzyCat> Aria: does that mean if it can't dl with quickstart it'll fall back ?
Jul 10 19:20:11 <SpeedEvil> FuzzyCat: yes
Jul 10 19:20:15 <wansti> alphaone: dropped the mic too close to my speakers and hurt my ears :-)
Jul 10 19:20:16 <FuzzyCat> ahh good
Jul 10 19:20:18 <SpeedEvil> FuzzyCat: see AGPS on the wiki
Jul 10 19:20:19 <Aria> Yes
Jul 10 19:20:31 <SpeedEvil> Or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AGPS
Jul 10 19:20:59 <SpeedEvil> 11th floor is for the under 10s?
Jul 10 19:21:01 <SpeedEvil> oops
Jul 10 19:21:07 <bmk789> how does it compare to traditional GPS, power consumption-wise?
Jul 10 19:21:13 <FuzzyCat> ta
Jul 10 19:21:24 <SpeedEvil> It's fairly low power.
Jul 10 19:21:52 <alphaone> wansti: You know my alarm sound has to be painful. Otherwise I wont wake up :-)
Jul 10 19:22:52 <ferric> so no one knows if it's sold out, then?
Jul 10 19:23:03 <wansti> alphaone: should i record it for you? :-P
Jul 10 19:23:18 <bmk789> C is a good place to start for getting into openmoko development, right?
Jul 10 19:23:24 <wansti> "acoustic feedback wakeup call"
Jul 10 19:23:43 <ferric> bmk789: yes, but embedded programming is like writing super-efficient c
Jul 10 19:23:54 <SpeedEvil> This is not embedded.
Jul 10 19:23:59 <SpeedEvil> The Neo is a desktop.
Jul 10 19:24:02 <galexande> uh, we're using gtk, we're hardly "super-efficient."  Just learn gtk.
Jul 10 19:24:05 <SpeedEvil> It's just a bit smaller.
Jul 10 19:24:14 <alphaone> wansti: :-)
Jul 10 19:24:16 <woglinde> mrkeuner seems the full first marge is s
Jul 10 19:24:18 <woglinde> ups
Jul 10 19:24:19 <woglinde> re
Jul 10 19:24:20 <ferric> lol galexande 
Jul 10 19:24:41 * ferric backs off.
Jul 10 19:24:48 <galexande> heh 
Jul 10 19:31:34 <Husare> hello, i have a question, the gta02 will get 2 3d acceleartion sensors, right?
Jul 10 19:31:44 <ferric> Husare: that's what theys ay
Jul 10 19:32:17 <cjb> accelerometers, yes.
Jul 10 19:32:55 <SpeedEvil> Husare: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Accelerometer_Fundamentals
Jul 10 19:33:28 <Husare> SpeedEvil,  do you  know how accurate they are?
Jul 10 19:36:15 <SpeedEvil> Husare: if it's the ones mentioned on the mailing list - very bad.
Jul 10 19:36:25 <SpeedEvil> If it's the best in class, then still quite bad.
Jul 10 19:36:35 <SpeedEvil> The above page gives some limits.
Jul 10 19:37:44 <Husare> hmm, i thought it could help the gps more accuracy
Jul 10 19:37:56 <Husare> get more accuracy
Jul 10 19:38:07 <buz> anyone tried nav4all.com?
Jul 10 19:38:08 <aloril> (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[FAQ]] [[Alternate_Neo1973_case_designs]] [[Wish_List_-_Hardware]] [[Category:Neo1973_Hardware/ru]] [[Buying_Interest_List]] [[Carriers]] [[P1_Owners]] [[Carriers/TMobile]] [[Carriers/ATT]] [[Profiles_%28Application%29]] [[Profiles_%28Application%29/it]] and other changes
Jul 10 19:38:08 <SpeedEvil> Not really.
Jul 10 19:38:32 <Husare> *sigh* a dream is gone
Jul 10 19:38:35 <Husare> :D
Jul 10 19:38:46 <SpeedEvil> For _short_ periods, in some cases, yes, if it's got the best available accels.
Jul 10 19:39:00 <SpeedEvil> For the ones mentioned on the mailing list - basically no.
Jul 10 19:39:33 <mitsuhiko> use case for the current accels?
Jul 10 19:39:59 <SpeedEvil> Basically, they can sense taps on the case.
Jul 10 19:40:11 <SpeedEvil> They can sense the direction of down.
Jul 10 19:40:21 <SpeedEvil> That's about it.
Jul 10 19:41:07 <Husare> mitsuhiko, usecase: if you turn it in lndscape, the screen will adopt, or so.
Jul 10 19:41:36 <mitsuhiko> well yes, but how accurate are they?
Jul 10 19:41:46 <Husare> ehm, adapt i have meant
Jul 10 19:41:52 <mitsuhiko> can they track the tilting of the screen?
Jul 10 19:41:57 <mitsuhiko> for map navigation or something
Jul 10 19:42:08 <kdean06> I just read that a libre gpsd in the US violates a munitions law... If I'm buying the Neo1973 PURELY for hte sake of having a libre phone, does that mean I can't make use of these GPS? 
Jul 10 19:42:08 <high-rez> http://www.willitblend.com/videos.aspx?type=unsafe&video=iphone
Jul 10 19:42:43 <galexande> kdean, fic has no interest in whether you violate the law.  the gpsd built into the neo is just closed enough to not violate the law
Jul 10 19:42:56 <galexande> mitsuhiko, yes, that affects the direction of down
Jul 10 19:43:37 <SpeedEvil> mitsuhiko: they can accurately determine where down is. Tehy cannot detect roll around the "down" axis.
Jul 10 19:44:00 <SpeedEvil> mitsuhiko: so if you spin round in an office chair then it won't pick up anything.
Jul 10 19:44:19 * ferric imagines ppl spinning around in their office chairs with neo's.
Jul 10 19:44:24 <kdean06> galexande, But the gpsd on the neo IS restricted, and replacing it with a libre implimentation WOULD be a violation of the law?
Jul 10 19:44:25 <mitsuhiko> hmm
Jul 10 19:44:33 <galexande> well, it'll pick up the centripetal force of teh circle
Jul 10 19:44:42 <kdean06> This is confirmed, not speculation?
Jul 10 19:44:53 <SpeedEvil> kdean06: read the AGPS page on the wiki
Jul 10 19:44:55 <galexande> kdean, the gpsd on the neo is restricted, but i don't know about libre gpsd.
Jul 10 19:45:10 <SpeedEvil> kdean06: It's arms-control legislation. Which is wacky, but taken very seriously.
Jul 10 19:45:33 <SpeedEvil> kdean06: GPS is defined right next to nuclear weapons test equipment in the relevant law.
Jul 10 19:45:34 <thomasg> SpeedEvil, so thats mostly a US problematic?
Jul 10 19:45:39 <thomasg> *mainly
Jul 10 19:45:51 <mjr> kdean06, don't know of the validity of the ITAR interpretations, but you'd be in trouble at most if you travel across the US border with a Neo and the free gpsd
Jul 10 19:45:55 <SpeedEvil> Basically means that FIC can't sell them into the US without a DOD license.
Jul 10 19:46:00 <delinka> because GPS was once only a military application. and still has military application.
Jul 10 19:46:08 <SpeedEvil> (which they would not get)
Jul 10 19:46:50 <mjr> kdean06, replacing the gpsd with a free version and not traveling across the US border would be fine, however
Jul 10 19:47:25 <kdean06> mjr, I assume you mean "being in US controlled territory". I'm already "across" the border. :)
Jul 10 19:47:42 <wansti> how's this for a startup sound? :-) http://wansti.homelinux.net/files/tmp/wakeup.ogg
Jul 10 19:48:18 <mjr> kdean06, no, but I might mean transitioning between us- and non-us-controlled territory
Jul 10 19:48:49 <mjr> kdean06, afaik you'd be fine if you install the software in the US, as long as you don't then export the combo
Jul 10 19:48:55 <mjr> but IANAL etc
Jul 10 19:49:03 <galexande> you'll be fine so long as you don't tell anyone
Jul 10 19:49:09 <kdean06> Has the FIC lawers issued a statement?
Jul 10 19:49:21 <galexande> kdean, fic will definitely not be doing the libre gpsd
Jul 10 19:49:45 <kdean06> No, understandable. But the product is worthless to me if it's not libre and legal.
Jul 10 19:49:49 <delinka> I can imagine US airport security saying "You'll need to provide us with a binary dump of your cellphone firmware before you can board the plane"
Jul 10 19:50:12 <daMaestro> no, they'll just take it
Jul 10 19:50:14 <galexande> bummer, i can't build openmoko-dialer because i'm missing build/tmp/staging/arm-linux/bin/dbus-binding-tool
Jul 10 19:50:52 <kdean06> Thanks for the input guys. :) I'll pursue this a bit more and see if it's not a huge waste of money for me. :)
Jul 10 19:51:10 <SpeedEvil> kdean06: it's exactly the same case as any GPS device.
Jul 10 19:51:39 <SpeedEvil> kdean06: they are _all_ like this - and in principle if you open-source the GPS microcontroller, you might hit this issue.
Jul 10 19:51:54 <SpeedEvil> It's just that on may devices it's on another core.
Jul 10 19:52:55 <empty_mind> hello moko
Jul 10 19:53:03 <empty_mind> any devices left ?
Jul 10 19:53:19 <SpeedEvil> They may all be sold - but there will be another run along soon.
Jul 10 19:53:29 <kdean06> SpeedEvil, I understand that. I don't own a GPS device yet, and if I can't have a legal and libre one, I'll be campaigning until I can. :(
Jul 10 19:53:34 <empty_mind> hmmm
Jul 10 19:53:56 <SpeedEvil> You do realise that the GSM module inside the phone is not opensource either?
Jul 10 19:54:12 <SpeedEvil> And no phone is likely to ship with an opensource GSM modem ever?
Jul 10 19:54:43 <empty_mind> why no mobile ever with open GSM module ?
Jul 10 19:55:24 <SpeedEvil> Because in many countries it's illegal to own. At least after teh first person misuses it.
Jul 10 19:55:43 <SpeedEvil> Consider someone doing phone-phone comms without the tower int eh phone frequency band.
Jul 10 19:55:50 <mjr> kdean06, again, it should be possible to legally use a libre gpsd also inside the developing nation of the US, if you don't export it
Jul 10 19:55:52 <SpeedEvil> They will jam _large_ areas.
Jul 10 19:56:20 <SpeedEvil> GSM and all phone systems work because they can coordinate to have all transmitters non-interfering.
Jul 10 19:56:37 <SpeedEvil> When you stop doing that, ranges plummet.
Jul 10 19:56:42 <SpeedEvil> Even in the absence of malice.
Jul 10 19:57:22 <high-rez> Yeah, if you don't have the network dictating tdm timing and timeslot sizes youre sortta hosed.
Jul 10 19:57:59 <thomasg> willitblend rocks :)
Jul 10 19:58:10 <don-o> thomasg: going to blend a neo?
Jul 10 19:58:32 <thomasg> guess not
Jul 10 19:58:55 <thomasg> maybe I should have imported a blendtec device, too :)
Jul 10 20:06:07 <malsyned> How is transparency done on OpenMoko?  with the Composite extension?
Jul 10 20:06:31 <delinka> does the actual phone go through the same sloooooooow boot process that the emulator does?  I expected emulation slowness, but this thing takes so long, I'm worred about the end user experience
Jul 10 20:06:34 <dtx> If I get the Neo Advanced will the debug board work with the Neo Base coming out in October?
Jul 10 20:06:35 <aloril> dtx: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.)
Jul 10 20:11:49 <zecke> malsyned: XComposite doesn't really perform. if you see some sort of transparency it is faked
Jul 10 20:12:14 <Kensan> delinka: yes, it takes close to 2 minutes to boot. Things will get better once the init-process gets optimized (upstart, see bugs #9,12). Also suspend will make things easier.
Jul 10 20:12:44 <Husare> in the wiki for the accelerometer ii read "Roll about the 'down' axis cannot" as SpeedEvil mentioned. i think it is because the 2 acc.meters are in line with the down axis. an if not, the lever for the momentum would be too small, right?
Jul 10 20:14:00 <Husare> and of course the accuracy is a factor
Jul 10 20:14:13 <malsyned> zecke: there's transparency all over the screenshots on the wiki.  are those all just mock-ups?  also, will XComposite be more viable in the GTA02 because of the 3D hardware?
Jul 10 20:15:21 <zecke> malsyned: most of the are sadly only mockups. From the specs that one can see GTA02 could be different and is promising
Jul 10 20:15:32 <paulproteus> So does anyone who has a phone have a minute to help me out?
Jul 10 20:16:02 <paulproteus> I plug it into USB with the battery in (but the front cover off), and it doesn't turn on, but maybe it's just out of power.
Jul 10 20:16:34 <zecke> paulproteus: you press longer than 5 seconds?
Jul 10 20:17:36 <paulproteus> I just tried holding it down for 5 seconds and releasing, but the screen doesn't turn on and it doesn't show in lsusb.
Jul 10 20:18:08 <woglinde> plauproteus hm try another computer if you have
Jul 10 20:18:18 <woglinde> I have a hp which dont charge the moko too
Jul 10 20:18:20 <paulproteus> I do have the debug board, if that can help.
Jul 10 20:18:29 <paulproteus> Hmm, good point woglinde, this is a Dell front port.
Jul 10 20:18:34 <woglinde> hm
Jul 10 20:18:35 <paulproteus> I heard that if I upgrade the software, I'm likely to have more success across the board.
Jul 10 20:18:40 <woglinde> try the back ones
Jul 10 20:18:42 <paulproteus> This is a 2007-04-20 V4.
Jul 10 20:18:44 <woglinde> or the charger
Jul 10 20:18:52 <woglinde> which came with the package
Jul 10 20:19:03 <woglinde> wait half an hour
Jul 10 20:19:08 <woglinde> if this dont works
Jul 10 20:19:16 <woglinde> but the battery out for 10 seconds
Jul 10 20:19:21 <woglinde> and try again
Jul 10 20:20:12 <paulproteus> Pulling out the battery and putting it back in just caused the screen to go full-white.
Jul 10 20:20:41 <woglinde> hm did you pull the usb before?
Jul 10 20:20:41 <paulproteus> Oh, and now the screen seems to be off again.
Jul 10 20:21:20 <paulproteus> woglinde, What I did in order was unplug front USB, plug into back USB, then check if holding power for 10s made something interesting happen.
Jul 10 20:21:35 <woglinde> hehe okay
Jul 10 20:21:42 <woglinde> let it load a while
Jul 10 20:21:45 <paulproteus> Nothing interesting, so then I removed the battery for 5s while USB was still connected and then on re-inserting the battery the screen went white.
Jul 10 20:21:54 <woglinde> args
Jul 10 20:21:56 <paulproteus> Now it's black again and doesn't appear to be backlit, as I said.
Jul 10 20:21:57 <woglinde> dont di this
Jul 10 20:22:10 <woglinde> pull the usb befor removing battery
Jul 10 20:22:16 <paulproteus> Okay, you got it.
Jul 10 20:23:27 <dtx> Do you guys know if I get the Neo Advanced with debug board, will this debug board work if I get the Neo Base GTA02?
Jul 10 20:23:43 <woglinde> dtx maybee
Jul 10 20:24:11 <dtx> hmmm
Jul 10 20:24:27 <paulproteus> woglinde, This time it never turned on at all.
Jul 10 20:24:35 <paulproteus> As evidenced by the lack of backlight on the LCD.
Jul 10 20:24:39 <happycube> i think debug v2 will work on gta02 - jtag is not processor specific
Jul 10 20:24:53 <woglinde> happycube hm yes but connector
Jul 10 20:25:11 <delinka> gah! my emulator is stuck asking me to calibrate the screen - how many times will the crosshairs run around the screen before it stops asking me?
Jul 10 20:25:13 <happycube> it'd be more work to change the connector and make a new debug board
Jul 10 20:26:12 <dtx> That's how I figured, it would work
Jul 10 20:26:31 <gcb77> delinka: once around 4 corners, once in the middle.  Any more and something's not working right
Jul 10 20:26:46 <delinka> yes, something is indeed not working  :/
Jul 10 20:27:55 <paulproteus> woglinde, Any other ideas? 
Jul 10 20:28:11 <alphaone> paulproteus: Do you have a multimeter handy?
Jul 10 20:28:25 <paulproteus> alphaone, No, not really. )-:
Jul 10 20:28:29 <alphaone> Can you check the voltage of the battery?
Jul 10 20:28:35 <Shoragan> paulproteus how long did you leave it off?
Jul 10 20:28:35 <woglinde> paulproteus let it load half an hour
Jul 10 20:28:36 <alphaone> paulproteus: :-/
Jul 10 20:29:05 <malsyned> so the accelerometers can detect "down" pretty reliably because they're seeing a constant 1G in that direction?
Jul 10 20:29:10 <happycube> yeah
Jul 10 20:29:20 <spikebike> assuming it's not moving ;-)
Jul 10 20:29:20 <paulproteus> Shoragan, I'm borring the phone from rejon (Jon Phillips), so I don't know.
Jul 10 20:29:33 <Shoragan> i charged a battery which i forgot for some days in a v3 today, it took about 2-3 hours before it would turn on
Jul 10 20:29:44 <paulproteus> Shoragan, Oh, that's probably what's going on.
Jul 10 20:30:01 <paulproteus> Shoragan, So I should probably just leave it plugged into a known-powered USB port for 2-3h and then it'll probably turn on?
Jul 10 20:30:05 <Shoragan> just leave it connected to the usb any try is every hour
Jul 10 20:30:10 <dtx> spikebike: it could be moving at constant speed with no change
Jul 10 20:30:15 <spikebike> sure
Jul 10 20:30:33 <spikebike> I guess the better question is that can it measure 1G reliably
Jul 10 20:30:53 <Shoragan> it won't necessarily turn on by itself
Jul 10 20:30:55 <galexande> well, we can get specs for the accelerometer if anyone knows what chip it is
Jul 10 20:31:02 <ScaredyCat> is  monotone.openembedded.org buggered?
Jul 10 20:31:04 <spikebike> I think the chip is still unmnamed
Jul 10 20:31:11 <galexande> all of the little mems accelerometers i've seen offer quite a bit of precision
Jul 10 20:31:25 <galexande> and a large range
Jul 10 20:31:55 <spikebike> Kinda surprised they are including 2
Jul 10 20:31:59 <malsyned> but the ones on the GTA02 would likely be good enough for iPhone-style rotation detection?
Jul 10 20:32:02 <paulproteus> Shoragan, Okay.  Also, do you have any idea what the full-on white screen was about?
Jul 10 20:32:15 <paulproteus> spikebike, Yeah, I was wondering what was up with the two accelerometers myself.
Jul 10 20:32:44 <Shoragan> hmm, it could mean nothing, just wait until it's charged
Jul 10 20:33:03 <paulproteus> Shoragan, Sounds good, I'll do that. 
Jul 10 20:33:06 <spikebike> with 2 I guess you can gauge yaw, tilt, and er umm the 3rd
Jul 10 20:34:16 <galexande> malsyned, that much is certain
Jul 10 20:34:47 <alphaone> http://rss.slashdot.org/~r/Slashdot/slashdot/~3/132387643/article.pl
Jul 10 20:36:39 <malsyned> galexande: nice.
Jul 10 20:36:53 <malsyned> and xrandr is most of the rest of the heavy lifting?
Jul 10 20:41:29 <seemant> ok, so I just saw that iphone thing
Jul 10 20:41:39 <seemant> I have to say, that stupid thing is beee-you-tiful
Jul 10 20:41:43 <wansti> gah... my recording toolchain is messed up and i've got too much stuff on my mind right now :-(
Jul 10 20:42:13 <seemant> the multitouch, the resolution, the zooming, the fonts
Jul 10 20:42:18 <seemant> it's really crisp
Jul 10 20:42:34 <spikebike> yeah, for what it does it's pretty slick
Jul 10 20:42:45 <bmk789> what package management system does openmoko use?
Jul 10 20:42:47 <spikebike> hey speaking of which I saw the wiki mention that openmoko runs on the treo650
Jul 10 20:42:47 <seemant> I might wind up getting one for my wife
Jul 10 20:43:03 <spikebike> bmk the openmoko slides mention agp-tget
Jul 10 20:43:06 <spikebike> apt-get
Jul 10 20:43:06 <seemant> I'm holding out for openmoko for my self though
Jul 10 20:43:21 <bmk789> ah, so its debain based
Jul 10 20:43:30 <alphaone> ipk
Jul 10 20:44:32 <devestate> is Whitby's MokoMakefile broken?
Jul 10 20:44:37 <SpeedEvil> galexande: spikebike: paulproteus: The accels mentioned on the mailing list are _very_ insensitive compared to the optimal ones. 7 bits in a G, compared to 10-11 for the best in breed. The ones on the ML cannot tell roll, pitch or yaw. 
Jul 10 20:45:16 <SpeedEvil> The http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Accelerometer_Fundamentals
Jul 10 20:46:03 <idarwin> "runs on the treo650" is a bit exaggerated - it is not a full install, just loaded into ram, if you soft-reset, it runs PalmOS again :-) Follow the link & read both articles fully.
Jul 10 20:47:01 <galexande> 7 bits is still a ton
Jul 10 20:47:10 <devestate> nm.. openembedded is just taking a long time...
Jul 10 20:47:20 <galexande> (bit->mass conversion is a proprietary formula i'm not sharing)
Jul 10 20:47:41 <spikebike> speedevil right, but with 2 you could derive roll pitch and yaw
Jul 10 20:47:42 <seemant> what does 7 bits do?
Jul 10 20:47:48 <SpeedEvil> galexande: The problem is that it works fine for orientation. But some of the nice things that you'd like to do involve second, or third derivatives
Jul 10 20:47:56 <malsyned> seemant: represents any number between 0 and 127 ;)
Jul 10 20:47:57 <SpeedEvil> spikebike: you can't.
Jul 10 20:48:05 <spikebike> idarwin which link?
Jul 10 20:48:09 <SpeedEvil> spikebike: see the above page for the limits.
Jul 10 20:48:18 * spikebike reads
Jul 10 20:48:20 <malsyned> it's saying that you can measure with the precision of 1/127th of a G.
Jul 10 20:48:25 <ScaredyCat> it is alive devestate? ?
Jul 10 20:49:00 <malsyned> bmk789: it's openembedded based, which uses ipkg, which from what I've read is a kind of dpkg work-alike with a smaller footprint.
Jul 10 20:49:16 <malsyned> er, 1/128th of a G.
Jul 10 20:50:50 <delinka> I don't know if it had something to do with the read-only image (I started qemu with -snapshot), but I tried again without that switch and it asked twice for screen calibration and now it's starting the UI
Jul 10 20:51:18 <seemant> malsyned: so it's a matter of precision of movement in the accelerometer?
Jul 10 20:51:35 <spikebike> idarwin treo 650 link?
Jul 10 20:52:28 <idarwin> spikebike, look on the front page of the wiki
Jul 10 20:52:44 <spikebike> idarwin thanks
Jul 10 20:53:10 <SpeedEvil> seemant: yes
Jul 10 20:53:14 <malsyned> seemant: almost, except that it's not measuring movement directly, it's measuring acceleration. It's a matter of how small a change in acceleration it can measure.  In the case of a 7-bit reading, it can tell the difference between 1G and 129/128ths of a G.
Jul 10 20:53:23 <idarwin> The real important question: Could the currently-planned-for-GTA02 accelerometers detect if you dropped your Neo, before it hit the floor?
Jul 10 20:53:29 <SpeedEvil> Easily.
Jul 10 20:53:42 <SpeedEvil> 0/128ths :)
Jul 10 20:54:02 <idarwin> Thanks
Jul 10 20:54:11 <malsyned> idarwin: what would it do, spin down the microSD card? :P
Jul 10 20:54:29 <idarwin> good question.
Jul 10 20:55:02 <malsyned> file an RMA with FIC on its way to the floor?
Jul 10 20:55:11 <idarwin> hehe
Jul 10 20:55:36 <ScaredyCat> openembedded.org is shafted
Jul 10 20:56:05 <idarwin> no rma for dropping, maybe it could order its replacement? :-)
Jul 10 20:57:01 <malsyned> oh man.  it could tattle on you so you couldn't try to get an RMA later.  Good think it's open-source ;)
Jul 10 20:58:24 <SpeedEvil> It would be reasonable to sync to the SD card/NAND
Jul 10 20:58:32 <ScaredyCat> SpeedEvil needs to make a case with an airbag that deploys if you drop it
Jul 10 20:58:43 <malsyned> SpeedEvil: oh, good point.
Jul 10 20:58:44 <SpeedEvil> Naah.
Jul 10 20:59:03 <SpeedEvil> I have also got here some protype rocket engines.
Jul 10 20:59:10 <alex-weej> what kind of charger does the Neo1973 come with?
Jul 10 20:59:21 <SpeedEvil> Of course, it would be bad if it went off in your pocket :)
Jul 10 20:59:31 <galexande> alex, at least USB, and maybe AC (wall plug)
Jul 10 20:59:49 <SpeedEvil> Hmm. I assume it's likely they'll screw up the AC.
Jul 10 20:59:57 <ScaredyCat> is that a rocket in your pocket or are you ust pleased to see me..... err srry it is a rocket
Jul 10 20:59:58 <SpeedEvil> And send everyone 110V plugs
Jul 10 21:00:18 <ScaredyCat> :/
Jul 10 21:00:21 <SpeedEvil> As nothng else has been mentioned.
Jul 10 21:01:22 <ScaredyCat> that's not going to be good :(
Jul 10 21:02:07 <ScaredyCat> unless it's  a 110->240v wit clip on heads
Jul 10 21:02:30 <ph|ber> m0o
Jul 10 21:02:51 <ScaredyCat> I mean, bearing in mind where they are, it's not going to be hard to source that sort of thing
Jul 10 21:03:10 * ScaredyCat stabs openembedded.org
Jul 10 21:04:18 <seemant> so, what role do the accelerometers play in the neo1973 anyway?
Jul 10 21:04:39 <seemant> it's not just for the web-page tilty thing is it?
Jul 10 21:04:55 <bmk789> dont forget video tilty thing
Jul 10 21:05:00 <ScaredyCat> it could be anything...
Jul 10 21:05:01 <CM> seemant: I suspect that they're dirt cheap, and a fun thing to play with that doesn't require much drivers or anything :)
Jul 10 21:05:24 <ScaredyCat> CM has a good idea, shake it to shuffle palyback of songs
Jul 10 21:05:25 <CM> So they basically said "What the heck, let's add these too"
Jul 10 21:05:31 <ScaredyCat> s/had/had/
Jul 10 21:05:36 <ScaredyCat> s/has/had/
Jul 10 21:05:36 <apt> ScaredyCat meant: CM had a good idea, shake it to shuffle palyback of songs
Jul 10 21:05:57 <malsyned> the 3D and the Accelerometers seem to have been added to make it possible to compete with the iPhone in the bling department.
Jul 10 21:06:11 <CM> Even if it's just small things, I'm sure we can come up with fun things to do with them
Jul 10 21:06:38 <woglinde> the accelarotrs are for rumble when you play the flipper game
Jul 10 21:06:38 <paulproteus> Shoragan, and others - the phone booted now, sweet!
Jul 10 21:07:07 <gnu_> SpeedEvil:  I have relevant info about the ITAR issue around GPS.
Jul 10 21:07:09 <ScaredyCat> "The file is already fully retrieved; nothing to do" ... and yet you still tried to retrieve it... 
Jul 10 21:07:24 <dtx> we all know the accelerometers will be used for porn in some fashion
Jul 10 21:07:33 <CM> woglinde: To tilt it?
Jul 10 21:07:39 <ScaredyCat> wank-o-meter
Jul 10 21:07:43 <CM> dtx: Hehe
Jul 10 21:07:58 <dtx> Leave it to porn to progress tech
Jul 10 21:08:14 <ScaredyCat> it could be like tamagochi...
Jul 10 21:08:31 <seemant> CM: ah I see, that makes sense
Jul 10 21:08:42 <malsyned> if it didn't have accelerometers, how would it know when it was time to erase the virtual etch-a-sketch?
Jul 10 21:08:43 <ScaredyCat> check your 5-knuckle-shuffle scores against complete stangers
Jul 10 21:09:09 <CM> seemant: I'm just guessing here, so don't take it as a fact :)
Jul 10 21:09:58 <don-o> did the neo get FCC approval? im assuming it did of course but it hasnt been announced afaik.
Jul 10 21:10:53 <happycube> that's the best reason i can think of for all of them to be shipped from california
Jul 10 21:11:28 <malsyned> don-o: does each device need to get FCC approval, or just each GSM model?
Jul 10 21:11:31 <paulproteus> malsyned, I'm glad the virtual etch-a-sketch meme is spreading!
Jul 10 21:11:47 <oelewapperke> perhaps we could finally make the bond car a reality
Jul 10 21:11:48 <don-o> malsyned: i assume its by model. i cant imagine FCC workers approving every iPhone
Jul 10 21:11:59 <oelewapperke> you know where the phone becomes the wheel of the car
Jul 10 21:12:16 <malsyned> don-o: :P  I meant specifically the GSM part on the board.
Jul 10 21:12:41 <don-o> malsyned: oh no its the whole package. they need to test the antenna, etc. although i know fairly little about the whole process.
Jul 10 21:15:36 <malsyned> Here's a thread I just found on the subject.  http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2006-December/000792.html
Jul 10 21:17:45 <SpeedEvil> gnu_ What?
Jul 10 21:17:49 <SpeedEvil> (ITAR)
Jul 10 21:18:05 <bmk789> how long does the prebuilt qemu/openmoko binaries take to boot?
Jul 10 21:18:19 <gnu_> SpeedEvil:  We won a court case in the 1990s that software cannot be export controlled by ITAR due to the First Amendment.
Jul 10 21:18:32 <SpeedEvil> Different part.
Jul 10 21:18:37 <gnu_> SpeedEvil:  In that case, we were suing about encryption software.
Jul 10 21:18:48 <SpeedEvil> This is specifically software+hardware
Jul 10 21:19:00 <SpeedEvil> software alone is not export controlled in this case.
Jul 10 21:19:09 <seemant> CM: seems like a pretty good guess to me -- makes perfect sense, anyway
Jul 10 21:19:30 <galexande> i bet therefore that libre gpsd is legitimate, but making a gps chipset which is designed to work with libre gpsd would be illegal
Jul 10 21:19:30 <gnu_> SpeedEvil:  There are many misconceptions in the web page on AGPS.  For one thing, the phones are not being exported -- they're being imported, which is NOT controlled by ITAR.
Jul 10 21:19:47 <SpeedEvil> gnu_: It's both import and export.
Jul 10 21:20:00 <gnu_> SpeedEvil:  In what sense?
Jul 10 21:20:46 <SpeedEvil> Hang on
Jul 10 21:20:55 <gnu_> SpeedEvil:  OK
Jul 10 21:21:00 <galexande> gnu, at the moment at least, there is no international distribution so it is imported into the us and then re-exported
Jul 10 21:21:27 <SpeedEvil> § 120.1 -- General authorities and eligibility.
Jul 10 21:21:28 <SpeedEvil>    (a) Section 38 of the Arms Export Control Act (22 U.S.C. 2778) authorizes the President to control the export and import of defense articles and defense services. The statutory authority of the President to promulgate regulations with respect to exports of defense articles and defense services was delegated to the Secretary of State by Executive Order 11958, as amended (42 FR 4311). This subchapter implements that authority. 
Jul 10 21:21:47 <SpeedEvil> ...
Jul 10 21:22:20 <gnu_> SpeedEvil:  sure, blah blah blah.  I've read it.  It doesn't overrule the constitution -- that's what our court decided.
Jul 10 21:22:22 <galexande> it says the legislation allows the president to regulate both, but the president has only established a structure to regulate export?
Jul 10 21:22:33 <malsyned> gnu_: what was the name of the case?
Jul 10 21:22:44 <gnu_> malsyned:  Bernstein v. US. 
Jul 10 21:22:46 <galexande> gnu, "our court?" what the hell do you think this is, a democracy?
Jul 10 21:23:14 <gnu_> http://www.eff.org/Privacy/Crypto_export/Bernstein_case/
Jul 10 21:23:49 <SpeedEvil> gnu_: software+hardware as a total device is not the same as software along.
Jul 10 21:23:55 <SpeedEvil> alone
Jul 10 21:24:11 <malsyned> gnu_: you're one of the founders of the EFF?
Jul 10 21:24:14 <gnu_> SpeedEvil:  I might agree.  But that doesn't end the analysis.
Jul 10 21:24:17 <gnu_> malsyned:  Yes.
Jul 10 21:24:53 <malsyned> gnu_: Then this is a good opportunity for me to say 'thanks'
Jul 10 21:25:03 <gnu_> SpeedEvil:  The hardware you're using is consumer grade and appears in a wide variety of equipment.  The ITAR is designed to control military grade GPS (in particular, for use in guided missiles).
Jul 10 21:25:07 <gnu_> malsyned:  You're welcome!
Jul 10 21:25:40 <gnu_> SpeedEvil:  I can refer you to some very good ITAR lawyers if you'd like.  
Jul 10 21:26:15 <galexande> 5 meter accuracy is enough for a nuclear weapon :)
Jul 10 21:26:26 <jeff__> hello everyone
Jul 10 21:26:35 <SpeedEvil> gnu_: Please do!
Jul 10 21:26:35 <dtx> How many of these Phase 1 devices will there be total?
Jul 10 21:26:36 <pygi> hey
Jul 10 21:26:49 <SpeedEvil> gnu_
Jul 10 21:27:01 <SpeedEvil> read the definition of a military GPS.
Jul 10 21:27:07 <gcb77> any updates on order status?  anyone receving confirmation e-mail?
Jul 10 21:27:15 <jeff__> does anyone have any experience in developing apps for OpenMoko?
Jul 10 21:27:15 <aloril> jeff__: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.)
Jul 10 21:27:33 <SpeedEvil> gnu_: commercial hardware that does not implement the limits _is_ military equipment as defined in this legislation.
Jul 10 21:27:41 <gnu_> SpeedEvil:  the "designed for" part of it is key.  "Designed for ... above 60,000 feet and 1000 knots velocity".  Neither your hardware nor your software are designed for this. 
Jul 10 21:27:48 <jeff__> successfully..
Jul 10 21:28:24 <SpeedEvil> gnu_: The hardware will function just fine. And the software needs only one if statement altered to generate positions at 1001 knots and 61000 feet.
Jul 10 21:28:43 <SpeedEvil> gnu_: the normal satellite velocities towards or away are >> 1000kt
Jul 10 21:29:00 <gnu_> SpeedEvil:  You actually have no idea what would happen -- have you tested the software at high velocities?
Jul 10 21:29:06 <SpeedEvil> gnu_: All existing GPS could in theory have this problem - apart from the fact that none of these are open sourcel.
Jul 10 21:29:31 <SpeedEvil> gnu_: If it doesn't work at 999 knots, that's a bug that should be fixed.
Jul 10 21:30:07 <gnu_> SpeedEvil:  The problem is that you're making a mountain from a molehill.  The ITAR bureaucrats really are focused on controlling things that are real weapons -- not consumer cellphones.  
Jul 10 21:30:13 <SpeedEvil> gnu_: for example, my garmin GPS12 runs on a 386/16. If it had the appropriate code changes, it could do this.
Jul 10 21:31:26 <SpeedEvil> gnu_: Certainly. I am not saying this is certainly an issue - it's certainly not until an open-source GPS driver is written - I'm saying that there needs to be consultation with actual lawyers experienced in ITAR before distributing an open-sourced GPS.
Jul 10 21:31:36 <jeff__> I read the FAQ page already but the documentation of the whole project really stinks especially setting up the environment and getting your app into a image
Jul 10 21:32:26 <gnu_> SpeedEvil:  Talk with John R. Liebman, co-author of a main reference book on the export controls.
Jul 10 21:32:28 <malsyned> SpeedEvil: I think gnu_'s point is that legislatures and bureaucrats don't think like programmers (a cynic might add "meaning they don't think logically").  As long as you don't put effort into making it work under the conditions they're interested in, you have the ability to plausibly argue that their regulations don't apply to you, because of the wording of the regulations.
Jul 10 21:33:06 <gnu_> SpeedEvil:  hang on, phone call.
Jul 10 21:33:09 <SpeedEvil> I agree. However, in some cases legislators can be wound up to take technical infringments a lot further than would be logical.
Jul 10 21:33:34 <SpeedEvil> And for example - to be paranoid - apple has a lot of pull.
Jul 10 21:34:13 <galexande> any plan that relies on finding justice in an american court has a sbustantial chance for failure
Jul 10 21:34:15 <galexande> so they use closed gpsd
Jul 10 21:35:02 <Elrond> galexande - Who?
Jul 10 21:35:13 <malsyned> Elrond: the OpenMoko developers.
Jul 10 21:35:18 <galexande> fdc
Jul 10 21:35:38 <galexande> fic grr
Jul 10 21:35:48 <Elrond> Well, the opensource driver for the Neo1973's gps is _very slowly_ on its way.
Jul 10 21:35:52 <SpeedEvil> Practically - for FIC - there is absolutely no risk in them distributing a closed-source GPS.
Jul 10 21:35:53 <Viko> I for one would love to see an intercontinental nuclear missile with a touchscreen.
Jul 10 21:36:08 <pygi> Viko, not good thinking :)
Jul 10 21:36:09 <Elrond> galexande, malsyned - So SpeedEvil's consideration have a background.
Jul 10 21:36:19 <galexande> or a radio control airplane with afterburners
Jul 10 21:36:20 <galexande> and a touchscreen
Jul 10 21:36:39 <jedix> Viko: I saw that in a movie once.. so it must be real
Jul 10 21:37:18 <SpeedEvil> The only possible case is that if it would be likely that it was held in court that open-source GPS was an inherent unlimited GPS, due to the documented off-switch on the code.
Jul 10 21:37:33 <SpeedEvil> And that's for a lawyer specialising in ITAR and software.
Jul 10 21:37:45 <gnu_> SpeedEvil:  http://www.mckennalong.com/people-119.html   is John Liebman.  He's very good.  Expensive, too, but he'll probably give you a free hour to start and then you can see whether and how to proceed.
Jul 10 21:37:48 <aloril> (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Talk:Wish_List_-_Hardware]] [[Press_Coverage/it]] [[User:Idarwin]] [[Accelerometer_Fundamentals]] [[Wish_List_-_Hardware]] [[Disassembling_Neo1973]] [[Neo1973:_GTA01Bv4_versus_GTA02_comparison/it]] [[Neo1973:_GTA01Bv4_versus_GTA02_comparison]] and other changes
Jul 10 21:37:58 <Viko> Running Linukes...?
Jul 10 21:38:37 <SpeedEvil> gnu_: I'm currently trying to save up $300 - for phone hardware. I really doubt I can reasonably afford consultation any time in the next few years.
Jul 10 21:39:12 <gnu_> SpeedEvil:  Well, who is the point person deciding whether to use open or closed source in this product/project?  
Jul 10 21:39:24 <gnu_> SpeedEvil:  (for the GPS, I mean)
Jul 10 21:39:31 <SpeedEvil> Whoever decides to include it in the OpenMoko build shipped with the phone.
Jul 10 21:39:39 <malsyned> gnu_, SpeedEvil: possibly someone at FIC would be interested in being included in this discussion.
Jul 10 21:39:40 <SpeedEvil> What the users then upgrade to is not FICs problem
Jul 10 21:39:45 <gnu_> SpeedEvil:  Who puts together the release?
Jul 10 21:39:58 <SpeedEvil> gnu_: I'd imagine one of the core team.
Jul 10 21:40:09 <gnu_> SpeedEvil:  I believe this can be handled straightforwardely, rather than by evasions like "we ship it one way and then users modify it"
Jul 10 21:40:12 <galexande> i still think fic is not interested in this problem, because they can ship the closed gpsd at essentially no costto them
Jul 10 21:40:41 <SpeedEvil> And I've still got to (partially, in cooperation with others) write the open-source driver :)
Jul 10 21:40:41 <malsyned> galexande: the OpenMoko team *is* bummed about having to ship closed-source GPS though.
Jul 10 21:40:46 <galexande> the philosophy that your radio interfaces can run closed software is already assumed and applies equally well when the closed firmware runs on the host arm
Jul 10 21:40:56 <gnu_> SpeedEvil:  My point is that the person who can make the decision, is the one who should talk with the lawyer, so they can be comfortable with the results.
Jul 10 21:41:16 <gnu_> SpeedEvil:  Or at least they should be involved in the discussion (along with others).
Jul 10 21:41:20 <SpeedEvil> gnu_: Oh - I agree. 
Jul 10 21:41:28 <galexande> i really think their time is better spent elsewhere :)
Jul 10 21:41:36 <kristian-m> aloril wie kommt das openmoo-werbe-topic zu stande? - hast du mit denen was zu tuen?
Jul 10 21:41:42 <malsyned> gnu_: Sean Moss-Pultz (sean@openmoko.com) is the lead architect for OpenMoko at FIC, I believe.  He'd be a good person to start with.
Jul 10 21:41:43 <SpeedEvil> gnu_: I've posted the concern to the mailing list, and this is quite irrelevant till the open source driver is writtn.
Jul 10 21:42:00 <SpeedEvil> Which is going to be at least several weeks, even in hyper-optimistic time.
Jul 10 21:42:07 <kristian-m> aloril ah sorry, misst a screen
Jul 10 21:42:41 <Elrond> SpeedEvil - I'd say rather months, judging from current progress.
Jul 10 21:42:49 <gnu_> SpeedEvil:  By the way, shipping the closed-source code is no guarantee that they are not violating the ITAR!  If they have a concern about ITAR, they would need to verify that the closed-source code doesn't meet the controlled criteria.  This may be difficult if even they don't have the source for it.
Jul 10 21:43:37 <Elrond> gnu_ - I guess, they can point to the people they got the binary from.
Jul 10 21:43:39 <SpeedEvil> gnu_: There are GPS simulators.
Jul 10 21:44:04 <SpeedEvil> gnu_: also - they don't need to do that. They simply need to say "those bad men said it did", and show the bit of paper.
Jul 10 21:44:08 <gnu_> malsyned, SpeedEvil: My concern in general is that open source folks don't limit themselves out of hysterical reactions to nonexistent issues.
Jul 10 21:44:41 <gnu_> SpeedEvil:  Nope -- if you ship a product you are personally liable.  There's no "he told me it was OK".
Jul 10 21:44:42 <cjb> I agree with gnu_.
Jul 10 21:44:43 <SpeedEvil> gnu_: Mine too - my concern is that FIC getting hit with frivolous legal action that could have been avoided, that delays phones being sold is bad.
Jul 10 21:44:58 <malsyned> gnu_: I agree completely.
Jul 10 21:45:22 <gnu_> SpeedEvil:  Generally there are no avenues to frivolous legal action here.  E.g. Apple can't sue FIC or OpenMoko for possible ITAR violations.
Jul 10 21:45:59 <malsyned> SpeedEvil: so your preferred strategy is to be comfortable with FIC shipping a closed GPS driver in order to get the hardware out the door and instead helping to develop an after-market completely free solution?
Jul 10 21:46:03 <SpeedEvil> gnu_: no. They can get someone all excited about it thoug possibly. 
Jul 10 21:46:27 <gnu_> SpeedEvil:  If the State Dept thinks there might be an issue, they generally handle it very quietly.  Remember, their goal is to keep bad stuff out of the hands of irresponsible people.  Trumpeting to the press that you can buy this bad product openly around the world is not a way to do that.
Jul 10 21:46:30 <SpeedEvil> The core team has _no_ time at the moment to work on a working sybsystem.
Jul 10 21:46:34 <raynet> wouldn't this all be just a problem from americans?
Jul 10 21:47:01 <SpeedEvil> They are concentrating on rather more important bits - like a properly working dialer.
Jul 10 21:47:09 <devestate> lol
Jul 10 21:47:37 <SpeedEvil> Or scribbling labels on packages even.
Jul 10 21:47:39 <Elrond> raynet - In the first shot: Yes.
Jul 10 21:47:42 <gnu_> raynet:  This particular problem (ITAR) is an American regulation.  There is an international control regime, the Wassenaar Arrangement, that many countries subscribe to.  I don't know if it controls GPS; it did control crypto, but with significantly looser controls that exempted openly published technology and software.
Jul 10 21:48:04 <roh> you guys worry to much about this itar stuff
Jul 10 21:48:06 <galexande> as i see it, i think teh open source hackers shouldn't care one way or the other about the itar, code is more real than law.  but the fic people, they need to worry about making money, and so their interests are legitimately different.
Jul 10 21:48:16 <raynet> gnu_: it can always be distributed via The Pirate Bay
Jul 10 21:48:17 <gnu_> SpeedEvil:  aren't there half a dozen free GPS implementations?
Jul 10 21:48:29 <seemant> now, this whole multi-touch buesiness
Jul 10 21:48:29 <SpeedEvil> gnu_: Fundamentally, all I'm saying is that asking a lwayer before distributing it isn't a bad idea.
Jul 10 21:48:34 <galexande> raynet, exactly
Jul 10 21:48:35 <seemant> is that something we can expect, you think?
Jul 10 21:48:39 <roh> IF the us make trouble about that, then we still can ship from some other country
Jul 10 21:48:45 <Elrond> roh - We don't want to piss the people who work so nicely with us.
Jul 10 21:48:53 <SpeedEvil> gnu_: it's software+hardware only that's regulated
Jul 10 21:49:05 <galexande> this'll be the new decss as quick as you can blink once we as a community address it, but fic can't really push the ball forward without accepting more liability than they need
Jul 10 21:49:07 <roh> Elrond ?
Jul 10 21:49:20 <SpeedEvil> gnu_: the software is only the 'back end' bit - the front end driver is still needed.
Jul 10 21:49:26 <seemant> wait, there's open source gps thingies?
Jul 10 21:49:41 <gnu_> SpeedEvil:  So the "front end" talks serial protocol to the GPS chipset?
Jul 10 21:49:46 <SpeedEvil> gnu_: no.
Jul 10 21:49:50 <raynet> FIC could add a small plastic explosive in the phone that goes off at certain speed or altitude
Jul 10 21:49:55 <SpeedEvil> gnu_: well - technically yes.
Jul 10 21:50:13 <SpeedEvil> gnu_: but it's talking to correlators directly. It's a raw protocol, not cooked positions.
Jul 10 21:50:30 <gnu_> SpeedEvil:  Right. 
Jul 10 21:50:32 <malsyned> seemant: multitouch is not planned for the first consumer release of the Neo1973 in October, last I heard.
Jul 10 21:50:39 <seemant> malsyned: ah ok
Jul 10 21:50:46 <cjb> gnu_: in other words, a software-assisted AGPS.
Jul 10 21:50:51 <SpeedEvil> Multitouch is moderately more expensive on the LCD, even in volume.
Jul 10 21:50:52 <cjb> malsyned: no kidding.
Jul 10 21:50:55 <gnu_> SpeedEvil:  Still, decoding the serial protocol (esp. if documented) is a lot less work than getting all the math right.  Somebody's done the hard part already.
Jul 10 21:50:56 <malsyned> seemant: but it's on the wishlist.  they definitely know there's demand for it.
Jul 10 21:51:04 <SpeedEvil> gnu_: it's not actually.
Jul 10 21:51:09 <malsyned> cjb: unless I heard wrong.  lemme check the wiki...
Jul 10 21:51:09 <SpeedEvil> gnu_: the math isn't that bad.
Jul 10 21:51:20 <seemant> malsyned: is multi-touch basically that two-finger zoom-out/zoom-in thingy on the iphone?
Jul 10 21:51:21 <SpeedEvil> gnu_: I've done orbital simulation code before.
Jul 10 21:51:24 <cjb> malsyned: you heard right; I'm expressing surprise that someone would think it might be present.
Jul 10 21:51:35 <raynet> wouldn't it be just easier to disassemble the binary driver?
Jul 10 21:51:43 <seemant> cjb: ah, I didn't think or not, I was just asking
Jul 10 21:51:47 * gcb77 starts suspecting his order didn't go through and is about to freak out
Jul 10 21:52:01 <SpeedEvil> gnu_: and fundamentally it's just orbital simulation + vector subtraction
Jul 10 21:52:14 <SpeedEvil> raynet: it's a big driver.
Jul 10 21:52:19 <malsyned> gcb77: they don't have a customer support email address?
Jul 10 21:52:27 <cjb> yeah, the binary is 1M or something.
Jul 10 21:52:29 <seemant> cjb: and more of a "in the future" time rather than neo1973 specific (I heard there are 3 other devices being developed)
Jul 10 21:52:31 <SpeedEvil> raynet: perhaps. If you want to start dissasembly, the wiki is that way :)
Jul 10 21:52:38 <gnu_> SpeedEvil:  E.g. http://gps.psas.pdx.edu/ (GPL-GPS) 
Jul 10 21:52:45 <raynet> SpeedEvil: is the binary in the wiki?
Jul 10 21:52:48 <SpeedEvil> gnu_: yes - I know of that.
Jul 10 21:52:53 <gcb77> I replied to the auto-reply e-mail and I'm waiting for a response
Jul 10 21:53:08 <cjb> gnu_: that runs on eCos.
Jul 10 21:53:08 <raynet> SpeedEvil: cannot do anything until i get my OpenMoko
Jul 10 21:53:15 <SpeedEvil> raynet: no - I was meaning to output dissasembly notes. If you asked, I'm sure someone'd send you it.
Jul 10 21:53:21 <raynet> before i have it in my hand it is just vaporware
Jul 10 21:53:24 <gnu_> SpeedEvil:  Note it says "It's currently positioning, with errors down in the 100's of meters.".  I.e. there's a lot more work to do on the math!
Jul 10 21:54:00 <gnu_> SpeedEvil:  yep -- also it's a port of some Linux software.   eCos won't affect the math, it's just the OS layer (serial port reads, etc)
Jul 10 21:54:17 <SpeedEvil> gnu_: yes, I know. I've done orbital simulations with well under the required error. That part isn't hard. The ionospheric corrections aren't hard, nor is the reletavistic.
Jul 10 21:54:24 <SpeedEvil> It's annoying.
Jul 10 21:54:31 <SpeedEvil> But not fundamentally hard.
Jul 10 21:55:14 <SpeedEvil> The fun and quite hard bit is software to get a lock within a second or two.
Jul 10 21:55:29 <SpeedEvil> Without going to an AGPS server.
Jul 10 21:55:53 <gnu_> SpeedEvil:  Yes, that's hard.  But it seems to me it would be good to do the easy part first!
Jul 10 21:56:03 <SpeedEvil> What easy part?
Jul 10 21:56:19 <gnu_> SpeedEvil:  get the chipset running with the existing (100's of meters off) free code.
Jul 10 21:56:43 <SpeedEvil> That's not the hard part.
Jul 10 21:57:02 <gnu_> SpeedEvil:  Right, it's the easy part. 
Jul 10 21:57:07 <SpeedEvil> The hard part is going from serial bytes -> meaning of serial bytes in psuedoranges
Jul 10 21:57:28 <SpeedEvil> And the easy part is pointless until the hard part has been done.
Jul 10 21:58:09 <SpeedEvil> There is currently no way to connect the chipset to the code - the protocol isn't known.
Jul 10 21:58:31 <gnu_> SpeedEvil:  right, so it's reverse engineering.  
Jul 10 21:58:37 <SpeedEvil> Basically.
Jul 10 22:02:11 <raynet> humm.. megabyte driver sounds quite big.. i wonder if it is static compile
Jul 10 22:02:48 <CM> gcb77: I don't think anyone has gotten anything more than the automatic reply
Jul 10 22:03:07 <CM> gcb77: No reply to my mail sent there either
Jul 10 22:03:39 <gnu_> raynet:  Here's a block diagram of the proprietary software:  http://www.globallocate.com/SEMICONDUCTORS/SEMI_DRIVER_Frameset.htm
Jul 10 22:03:46 <gcb77> CM: thanks, hope we hear something soon
Jul 10 22:05:23 <roh> ah.. schonmal mickey und co besucht?
Jul 10 22:05:43 <roh> oops.. wrong window
Jul 10 22:08:22 <rustalot> so when do i get to buy one ? :)
Jul 10 22:08:22 <aloril> rustalot: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.)
Jul 10 22:08:34 <SpeedEvil> rustalot: look at topic
Jul 10 22:09:08 <rustalot> SpeedEvil: Rather, when will it be ready for consumers like me?
Jul 10 22:09:16 <SpeedEvil> 'October'
Jul 10 22:09:26 <SpeedEvil> With a whole heap of luck.
Jul 10 22:09:35 <SpeedEvil> There have been doubts expressed.
Jul 10 22:09:54 <SpeedEvil> I think it's likely the hardware will be ready. And the core phone apps will be stable by then.
Jul 10 22:10:05 <SpeedEvil> But more, I would be pleasantly surprised.
Jul 10 22:10:48 <gnu_> SpeedEvil:  Do you have the pmb2520 "short data sheet" ref'd in the GPSD wiki page?  The link is broken now.
Jul 10 22:11:14 <SpeedEvil> Sigh
Jul 10 22:11:22 <malsyned> Can anyone comment on the polish of the software in the July 9th release?
Jul 10 22:11:25 <SpeedEvil> It's basically minimal, hangon.
Jul 10 22:11:29 <SpeedEvil> malsyned: sandpaper
Jul 10 22:11:45 <SpeedEvil> malsyned: it will make calls - most of the time. 
Jul 10 22:11:49 <SpeedEvil> malsyned: nothing more.
Jul 10 22:12:11 <don-o> SpeedEvil: receiving calls?
Jul 10 22:13:17 <SpeedEvil> don-o: apparently again - mostly works. 
Jul 10 22:13:27 <SpeedEvil> But it's at the stage where it will crash - often
Jul 10 22:13:45 <don-o> SpeedEvil: is there a reset button?
Jul 10 22:13:53 <SpeedEvil> Err.
Jul 10 22:13:58 <SpeedEvil> Funno actually.
Jul 10 22:14:01 <SpeedEvil> dunno
Jul 10 22:14:08 <Elrond> reset button? Huh? For what?
Jul 10 22:14:18 <don-o> SpeedEvil: i havent seen one in the photos. to recover from a crash i assume you pop out the battery.
Jul 10 22:14:29 <SpeedEvil> This is _NOT_ a suitable phone for end-users.
Jul 10 22:14:32 <don-o> unless you mean a less-severe crash
Jul 10 22:14:34 <don-o> SpeedEvil: yes yes :)
Jul 10 22:14:52 <Elrond> don-o - Most crashes are userspace only. The OS still runs fine.
Jul 10 22:14:54 <SpeedEvil> If you are a dev, and happy with hacking it, it might sort-of-work as an everyday phone.
Jul 10 22:14:56 <SpeedEvil> With no SMS.
Jul 10 22:15:09 <don-o> Elrond: ah ok.
Jul 10 22:15:54 <Elrond> don-o - The OS feels 95% stable by now.  From time to time some functions break and get fixed within weeks. ;-)
Jul 10 22:16:05 <Elrond> don-o - I have a quite stable kernel on my neo.
Jul 10 22:16:14 <don-o> Elrond: cool thats what i was expecting.
Jul 10 22:16:29 <don-o> Elrond: im waiting for the first 'field reports' before ordering one though.
Jul 10 22:16:50 <Elrond> don-o - No problem. I would have done the same in your place.
Jul 10 22:16:51 <don-o> im a developer but i want this to be my primary phone.
Jul 10 22:17:10 <Elrond> for primary phone: It needs time. See SpeedEvil :)
Jul 10 22:17:40 <don-o> heh. i can put up with userspace crashes and a few missed calls. i dont use a phone all that much.
Jul 10 22:18:23 <don-o> i'll probably use some PDA-style functions more than making calls.
Jul 10 22:18:40 <Elrond> don-o - If the OS really hangs (happened to me), you have two options: Press the power-button for 10 seconds (like with most ATX boards). If that doesn't help, you have to pop the battery out.
Jul 10 22:18:44 <don-o> i want to read RSS feeds while in the bathroom at work, basically.
Jul 10 22:19:08 <cjb> don-o: I use GobbleRSS
Jul 10 22:19:12 <cjb> don-o: which is a Google Reader clone
Jul 10 22:19:17 <cjb> that you run on your server
Jul 10 22:19:19 <Elrond> don-o - Well, all the PDA functions are even more alpha than the dialing.
Jul 10 22:19:30 <rustalot> no ! Akregator for the win
Jul 10 22:19:31 <cjb> and it'll generate a static HTML page with all the RSS content on
Jul 10 22:19:35 <don-o> Elrond: im happy with running 'more' on a text file if need me.
Jul 10 22:19:35 <malsyned> the cellular Internet access on this is only around dial-up speeds, right?
Jul 10 22:19:44 <cjb> so you can load that page, then go away from the network completely and read it
Jul 10 22:19:46 <don-o> s/need me/need be/
Jul 10 22:19:47 <apt> don-o meant: Elrond: im happy with running 'more' on a text file if need be.
Jul 10 22:19:54 <cjb> rustalot: that's a client; this is a web app
Jul 10 22:20:20 <ozzloy> has the fic 1973 been ok'd by the fcc?
Jul 10 22:20:29 <SpeedEvil> yes
Jul 10 22:20:30 <don-o> cjb: id rather sync with something. im not going to have GPRS data right away.
Jul 10 22:20:36 <don-o> ozzloy: i just asked the list for the FCC ID
Jul 10 22:21:18 <ozzloy> don-o: what was the answer?
Jul 10 22:21:25 <don-o> ozzloy: it was 20 minutes ago. no answer yet.
Jul 10 22:21:44 <Elrond> don-o - It's a basic linux toy. I have python on it, and stuff. But you shouldn't expect "useable with big thumb in the train" :-)
Jul 10 22:22:01 <ozzloy> don-o: oic
Jul 10 22:22:03 <cjb> don-o: right, how you get the generated HTML on to the phone is up to you.
Jul 10 22:22:04 <don-o> an FCC web search gets too many hits on fic as it does fuzzy matching
Jul 10 22:22:28 <Elrond> don-o - Did you try GTA01 ?
Jul 10 22:23:00 <SpeedEvil> Neo1973?
Jul 10 22:23:02 <SpeedEvil> FIC NEO
Jul 10 22:23:21 <don-o> there is no field for product name (!), just "applicant name"
Jul 10 22:23:30 <don-o> https://gullfoss2.fcc.gov/oetcf/eas/reports/GenericSearch.cfm
Jul 10 22:23:31 <Elrond> hmpf. :-(
Jul 10 22:23:37 <CoreDump|home> hi
Jul 10 22:23:43 <Elrond> Hi CoreDump|home 
Jul 10 22:24:55 <don-o> googling for site:wiki.openmoko.org "fcc id"
Jul 10 22:24:59 <don-o> turns up nothing either.
Jul 10 22:25:03 * don-o is a little concerned
Jul 10 22:25:14 <SpeedEvil> don-o: it's not your problem.
Jul 10 22:25:17 <SpeedEvil> It's theirs.
Jul 10 22:25:30 <spikebike> As long as the Z axes does not point in the same direction as gravity + current acceleration, then you can determine roll, pitch, yaw, and XYZ acceleration.
Jul 10 22:25:45 <spikebike> ah, so you can get pitch, yaw, and roll... most of the time
Jul 10 22:25:58 <SpeedEvil> No - that's with ideal accels.
Jul 10 22:26:18 <SpeedEvil> With real ones it degrades to unusability fast.
Jul 10 22:26:19 <don-o> SpeedEvil: operating an unlicenced transmitter is actually a problem
Jul 10 22:26:34 <spikebike> ah
Jul 10 22:26:53 <SpeedEvil> spikebike: there are some estimates of performance with real accels further down
Jul 10 22:27:06 <spikebike> yeah, just getting to that ;-)
Jul 10 22:33:51 <Aria> There's an FCC ID with the right date, 'U58CC602'
Jul 10 22:33:58 <Aria> But it's all confidential, so there's not much on it
Jul 10 22:34:10 <carrar> UBER S3CR37
Jul 10 22:34:11 <Aria> Dated 4/17/07
Jul 10 22:36:56 <carrar> 15 Matches found for FCC ID 'U58CC602'
Jul 10 22:37:59 <carrar> pdf schematics
Jul 10 22:38:16 <don-o> i see one match for that FCC ID. it has grant date of 4/17/2007
Jul 10 22:38:20 <Aria> Yep.
Jul 10 22:38:21 <carrar> only a few are classified confidential
Jul 10 22:38:26 <don-o> the exhibits are available, including the photo
Jul 10 22:38:31 <don-o> its not the neo197
Jul 10 22:38:32 <SpeedEvil> Match 17 would be about right
Jul 10 22:38:42 <don-o> its a CDMA phone called the "LEO"
Jul 10 22:38:45 <SpeedEvil> oh
Jul 10 22:39:38 <don-o> searching on FIC Communications brings up two hits.
Jul 10 22:39:49 <don-o> both 4/17/2007
Jul 10 22:39:54 <carrar> I show 15
Jul 10 22:40:09 <don-o> but the freq range is different for this other one 1851-1908mhz
Jul 10 22:40:30 <carrar> http://ln.ooz.net/34364
Jul 10 22:40:47 <don-o> dou. same LEO. different band.
Jul 10 22:41:15 <don-o> carrar: those are all elements for the same registration
Jul 10 22:41:23 <carrar> yeah
Jul 10 22:41:25 <Aria> Doh. Stupid site doesn't link things well
Jul 10 22:41:37 <carrar> thats the FCC we all know andlove :)
Jul 10 22:41:41 * mmazur wants phone :(
Jul 10 22:42:08 <mmazur> Why don't the evil ppl from the corporation send my my phone :(
Jul 10 22:42:10 <carrar> I have to admit, they are much faster now days
Jul 10 22:42:13 <mmazur> They're evil.
Jul 10 22:43:28 <carrar> when do the lawsuites start?
Jul 10 22:43:29 <carrar> heh
Jul 10 22:43:45 <carrar> thats when you know it's really taking off
Jul 10 22:44:15 <mmazur> I'll sue FIC over emotional damage for making me wait too long :)
Jul 10 22:44:21 <carrar> haha
Jul 10 22:44:41 <rwhitby> morning
Jul 10 22:44:46 <carrar> Tue Jul 10 15:44:50 PDT 2007
Jul 10 22:44:51 <carrar> Good afternoon
Jul 10 22:45:03 <zedstar> good evening ;)
Jul 10 22:45:15 <hads> It's always morning on IRC
Jul 10 22:45:31 <don-o> good morning rwhitby 
Jul 10 22:45:44 <rwhitby> hads: only when you join.  it's evening when you leave.
Jul 10 22:45:59 <hads> rwhitby: Yeah, well, you got me there :)
Jul 10 22:46:51 <Elrond> mmazur - How common is "Mazur" as a name in Poland? Last I heard that name was in Austria (.at).
Jul 10 22:47:09 <mmazur> Very.
Jul 10 22:48:17 <mmazur> 14th most popular
Jul 10 22:48:58 <Elrond> mmazur - Ahh. So the ones in .at are probably people from .pl?
Jul 10 22:50:40 <mmazur> Dunno. Probably.
Jul 10 22:52:48 <aloril> (script) planet: Michael "mickeyl" Lauer: Neo 1973 Phase 1 started http://www.vanille-media.de/site/index.php/2007/07/11/neo-1973-phase-1-started/
Jul 10 23:06:58 <pavelm> Hi, everyone
Jul 10 23:07:39 <pavelm> ...just... have you ever noticed how small/unreadable fonts on openmoko are?
Jul 10 23:08:08 <Elrond> pavelm - Yep. I already enlarged the dpi a bit. ,o)
Jul 10 23:08:25 <pavelm> elrond: Hmm, how do you do that?
Jul 10 23:08:43 <pavelm> I hand-edited theme to make fonts bigger...
Jul 10 23:09:07 <Elrond> pavelm - Wait a sec...
Jul 10 23:09:30 <carrar> I can't seem the enlarge them on mine, OH WAIT, I don't have one yet :)
Jul 10 23:10:02 * don-o laughs
Jul 10 23:10:04 <pavelm> I even created a bug for that ... with a patch, too (http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=571), but then I noticed it is assigned to buglog@... which I assume is "nobody" :-(
Jul 10 23:10:27 <pavelm> carrar: I actually have two of them here... shuffless...
Jul 10 23:10:43 <pavelm> carrar: No, two small fonts on two devices are not as good as one bigger font :-)
Jul 10 23:10:53 <Elrond> pavelm - /etc/X11/Xserver:  
Jul 10 23:10:55 <Elrond> """
Jul 10 23:11:03 <Elrond> export USER=root
Jul 10 23:11:03 <Elrond> ARGS=" -dpi 100 -br -pn -fp built-ins,/usr/share/fonts/ttf,/usr/share/fonts/truetype"
Jul 10 23:11:07 <Elrond> """
Jul 10 23:11:14 <Elrond> Notice the "-dpi 100" ;-)
Jul 10 23:13:31 <pavelm> Yeah, I thought I experimented with that, too.
Jul 10 23:13:32 <Elrond> pavelm - Or with 125dpi:  http://www.flickr.com/photos/elrond/663016598/in/set-72157600421319415/
Jul 10 23:14:08 <pavelm> elrond: hand-editing /usr/share/themes/... , you can actually enlarge fonts in menus etc, so they are usable using finger :-)
Jul 10 23:15:15 <Elrond> pavelm - Yeah. My 100dpi setting is useable with fingernails.
Jul 10 23:15:31 <pavelm> what I wanted to know is... who should I ask to fix the theme upstream?
Jul 10 23:15:34 <Elrond> pavelm - The 125dpi setting gets bad look (see other pics in the stream)
Jul 10 23:16:22 <Elrond> pavelm - I have no idea. I'd be interested too. I hope there will be some better initiative for people with bad eyes.
Jul 10 23:16:55 <pavelm> elrond: I'd hope dpi is set to realistic value, and then breakage is fixed. We do not want to ship neos with magnifying glasses, right?
Jul 10 23:17:51 <Elrond> pavelm - There's already a bug on the "set dpi to realistic value"...
Jul 10 23:18:51 <Elrond> !ombug 59
Jul 10 23:18:53 * pavelm wonders if we should have different gtkrc for stylus and finger applications...
Jul 10 23:19:09 <Elrond> pavelm - http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=59
Jul 10 23:19:11 <cdbot2> * * Bug 59, Status: NEW, Created: Unknown
Jul 10 23:19:12 <cdbot2> * * mickey(AT)vanille-media.de: Real DPI vs. Fake DPI
Jul 10 23:19:13 <cdbot2> * * http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=59
Jul 10 23:19:28 <Elrond> Ahh, cdbot2 woke up. ;-)
Jul 10 23:19:44 <andylockran> any luck on the mokomakefile uboot problems?
Jul 10 23:20:46 <pavelm> Good morning, cdbot2, have one more cofee :-)
Jul 10 23:20:48 <Elrond> andylockran - Is that your problem?  http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=635
Jul 10 23:21:28 <zecke> mickey|bbl: moin
Jul 10 23:22:13 <mickey|bbl> zecke: yawn 
Jul 10 23:22:19 <mickey|bbl> zecke: still awaken?
Jul 10 23:22:33 <zecke> mickey|bbl: yeah, but I'm searching for a place to sleep now :)
Jul 10 23:22:49 <Elrond> Hi mickey|bbl  :-)
Jul 10 23:22:56 <mickey|bbl> hey Elrond 
Jul 10 23:23:55 <Elrond> mickey|bbl - BTW: What do you think of an informal openmoko-meeting in FFM? ;-)
Jul 10 23:24:57 <mickey|bbl> Elrond: sounds good! when i'm here, i'm always in the mood for a coffee and a chat. any date in mind? When I'm back from GUADEC i'll be in ffm for about 4 weeks
Jul 10 23:25:12 <mickey|bbl> before guadec, it's a bit hectic on my end
Jul 10 23:25:26 <Elrond> When was guadec?
Jul 10 23:25:32 <Elrond> s/was/will be
Jul 10 23:25:39 <mickey|bbl> this sunday
Jul 10 23:25:41 <mickey|bbl> one week long
Jul 10 23:25:53 <andylockran> where?
Jul 10 23:25:56 <mickey|bbl> birmingham
Jul 10 23:26:10 <andylockran> how much are tix?
Jul 10 23:26:38 <mickey|bbl> for the conference? free of charge, i think. it's an oss conference after all
Jul 10 23:26:45 <Elrond> mickey|bbl - weekend of the 28th for example?
Jul 10 23:27:09 <pavelm> did anyone get ringing on incoming calls to work? That part is somehow important for a phone :-)
Jul 10 23:27:23 <Elrond> I already saw oss conferences for about 400Eur for two days or so.
Jul 10 23:27:26 <mickey|bbl> Elrond: looks good to me. I'll make a note. 
Jul 10 23:27:26 <pygi> pavelm, nah, why would you need that :)
Jul 10 23:28:40 <pavelm> pygi: I'm not good enough at telepathy, yet.
Jul 10 23:29:03 <paroneayea> the neo advanced is really more for hardware hackers than software hackers, right?
Jul 10 23:29:03 <pavelm> pygi: And I could use more training in "detecting radiation in 900MHz area".
Jul 10 23:29:13 <cjb> paroneayea: firmware hackers.
Jul 10 23:29:14 <pygi> pavelm, #telepathy might help? :)
Jul 10 23:29:23 <cjb> you can even be a kernel hacker and not need the devel kit.
Jul 10 23:29:35 * pygi likes the advanced kit very much ^_^
Jul 10 23:29:40 <paroneayea> cjb:  cool.  Thanks for the clarification
Jul 10 23:29:48 <SpeedEvil> Essentially. If you need to ask, you don't need it.
Jul 10 23:29:51 <paroneayea> I don't know shit about hardware or firmware, so :)
Jul 10 23:30:04 * paroneayea can't wait to get his mostly-still-useless neo :D
Jul 10 23:30:20 * pavelm hopes he'll never have to need the debug board.
Jul 10 23:30:40 <pavelm> pygi: Hmm... if I spend enough time on #telepathy, will I need a phone?
Jul 10 23:30:50 * mickey|bbl waves
Jul 10 23:30:56 <mickey|bbl> g'night folks
Jul 10 23:30:58 <pavelm> bye, mickey
Jul 10 23:31:38 <pygi> pavelm, who knows :)
Jul 10 23:32:19 <Elrond> Night mickey|zzZZzz 
Jul 10 23:32:35 <Elrond> pavelm - I don't have the debug board. ;-)
Jul 10 23:33:19 <Elrond> cjb - the debug board could help when developing kernel though.
Jul 10 23:33:35 <rwhitby> specially for kgdb work
Jul 10 23:33:45 <Elrond> Hmm... or will the kernel dumb a nice ooops on the display? ;-)
Jul 10 23:33:59 <SpeedEvil> It's basically in addition to what you'd get on the PC if you have a debug board.
Jul 10 23:34:16 * rwhitby wants to work out how to use kgdb one of these days ...
Jul 10 23:34:20 <SpeedEvil> A simple 'dump over I2C to the microSD' would work
Jul 10 23:34:24 <SpeedEvil> for oops
Jul 10 23:34:37 <Elrond> SpeedEvil - Yeah.
Jul 10 23:34:40 <SpeedEvil> Or dump over SMS :)
Jul 10 23:34:45 <Elrond> *lol*
Jul 10 23:35:00 <Elrond> Well, usbtty-console would be sooo useful.
Jul 10 23:35:02 <ljp> build is actually building
Jul 10 23:35:04 * pavelm had debug board for PC for few years.
Jul 10 23:35:05 <rwhitby> dump over speakers, and you have to decode it like they did the ipod firmware ...
Jul 10 23:35:12 <pavelm> ...used it exactly twice.
Jul 10 23:35:24 <Agrajag-> something i haven't seen anyone say yet - about how long does the neo1973 currently take to boot?
Jul 10 23:35:25 <SpeedEvil> If you need it, it's vital.
Jul 10 23:35:50 <Elrond> Agrajag- - About a minute or so. I never timed it.
Jul 10 23:36:00 <pavelm> speed: true. When I needed it, it was basically impossible to solve without that.
Jul 10 23:36:45 <Elrond> Agrajag- - I'll time it for you now. But beware: I have an older image/kernel/u-boot. So the current images might be faster.
Jul 10 23:36:51 <SpeedEvil> What was the issue?
Jul 10 23:37:14 <pavelm> speed: Debugging low-level resume code on x86-64.
Jul 10 23:38:26 <Aria> Wow. A minute. That's fast!
Jul 10 23:38:28 <aloril> (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Wish_List]] [[Main_Page/sk]] [[Template:Languages]] [[Main_Page/gr]] [[OpenMoko_talk:Community_Portal]] [[Alternate_Neo1973_case_designs]] [[UI_Improvements]] [[Buying_Interest_List]]
Jul 10 23:38:39 <Agrajag-> Elrond: cheers. a minute sounds kind of long, especially if you're like me and often turn your phone off. i guess there's room for improvement both in the boot process and the faster processor
Jul 10 23:38:49 <SpeedEvil> Well.
Jul 10 23:38:57 <SpeedEvil> In most cases, off won't be off.
Jul 10 23:39:01 <SpeedEvil> Off will be suspend-RAM
Jul 10 23:39:13 <SpeedEvil> which hopefully should come back in under a couple of seconds.
Jul 10 23:39:55 <Psi> if you do actually turn it off, does the RTC stop ?
Jul 10 23:40:02 <Elrond> Agrajag- - Okay... timed it: 3 seconds hold the power button to actually switch on, exactly one minute for X to start, another 40 seconds for the GUI.
Jul 10 23:40:16 <SpeedEvil> Psi: yes
Jul 10 23:40:34 <SpeedEvil> Psi: however, there is a 'RTC only' mode that'd normally be used
Jul 10 23:40:46 <Agrajag-> ah ok, couple of seconds sounds fine then
Jul 10 23:41:13 * Aria whistles. A minute forty is a bit much. I wonder what the delay there is. *senses a project*
Jul 10 23:41:17 <Elrond> From suspend: Yes, few seconds. (if it works.)
Jul 10 23:41:21 <linux_galore> my N95 takes a good 5 seconds to boot up
Jul 10 23:42:16 <linux_galore> some of the new WinCE 6 units even with a 600mhz or more cpu take a while to boot up
Jul 10 23:42:20 <Elrond> SpeedEvil - Is the rtc in the PMU off in off-mode too?
Jul 10 23:43:07 <SpeedEvil> I'm unsure.
Jul 10 23:43:34 <osmosis_> how come I dont see bluetooth listed?  http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973
Jul 10 23:43:36 <Elrond> Aria - There's room for improvement _everywhere_. You can take nearly any cornor and do something good. :-)
Jul 10 23:43:41 <linux_galore> I have a feeling some mobiles to a suspend to ram/flash on shutdown because when they crash and you reboot they take ages
Jul 10 23:43:51 <linux_galore> s/to/do
Jul 10 23:44:07 <pavelm_away> aria: I'd say the boottime is the least problem we have now.
Jul 10 23:44:37 <pavelm_away> aria: I'd be more woried about "can I read sms" and....
Jul 10 23:44:38 <Aria> Oh, yeah, for sure.
Jul 10 23:44:48 <Psi> osmosis_, that page is showing what you get, not whats in the phone
Jul 10 23:45:04 <pavelm_away> ..."is resume fast enough that people won't hang up before you pick it up" :-)
Jul 10 23:45:08 <Aria> I'll work on that as much as possible too.
Jul 10 23:45:31 <Elrond> Aria - Well, pavelm is right, but anyway. As you're not paid (at least I assume so), you can choose any area to work on. :-)
Jul 10 23:45:32 <Psi> except for the phase2 bit, and there is no need to mention BT there because P1 has it
Jul 10 23:45:39 <pavelm_away> (actually good text input method would be wonderful.)
Jul 10 23:46:03 <pavelm_away> (but we have worse problems then text input, too)
Jul 10 23:46:05 <linux_galore> pavelm_away: case mod the phone and add a mini bt keyboard heh
Jul 10 23:46:08 <Elrond> Aria - Or just play freeciv on the phone and do nothing on development. That's the freedom you have, when you buy hardware. ;-)
Jul 10 23:46:31 <andylockran> freeciv working on neo now?
Jul 10 23:46:48 <Elrond> andylockran - ph5 did it early.
Jul 10 23:47:24 <andylockran> kewl..
Jul 10 23:47:26 <pavelm_away> linux: I already have my bt keyboard...
Jul 10 23:47:30 <Elrond> andylockran - http://www.flickr.com/photos/ph5/417853278/in/photostream/
Jul 10 23:47:33 <pavelm_away> linux: sharp zaurus :-)
Jul 10 23:47:42 <andylockran> I'm just setting up the dev environment to start learning how to do it all..
Jul 10 23:47:47 <pavelm_away> linux: bt keyboard that does ssh :-)
Jul 10 23:47:49 <linux_galore> run one of the many games based on the free quake engine on the GTA02, now that will be fun
Jul 10 23:47:50 <andylockran> any recommendations?
Jul 10 23:48:17 <Elrond> andylockran - recommendations for what?
Jul 10 23:48:21 <pavelm_away> andy: python/gtk is _very_ easy, see mokomenu.py example.
Jul 10 23:48:27 <andylockran> thanks..
Jul 10 23:48:47 <andylockran> Elrond: where to start messing and learning stuff
Jul 10 23:49:02 <andylockran> I'm just learning how to program, having only previously done linux sys admin
Jul 10 23:49:23 <linux_galore> I like how you can do python/gtk stuff on the moko, means you can throw together a simple UI tool in a day or so
Jul 10 23:49:25 <andylockran> I want to write a few simple apps for the neo.. so was wondering the best place to start
Jul 10 23:49:33 <Elrond> andylockran - Just don't touch u-boot, if you get your neo. :-)
Jul 10 23:49:41 <andylockran> tanks for the tip :p
Jul 10 23:50:10 <Elrond> (if you break u-boot, you need the debug board to revive your neo.)
Jul 10 23:50:25 <Elrond> (everything else can be fixed without the debug board)
Jul 10 23:50:27 <andylockran> just want to get my environment working on the laptop so I can make a very simple app
Jul 10 23:50:30 <pavelm_away> www.sf.net/projects/tui ... mokomenu.py is useful  and very simple to hack. Plus you can hack shell scripts on moko.
Jul 10 23:50:32 <andylockran> Elrond: thanks..
Jul 10 23:50:37 <linux_galore> see how long it takes for someone to make a ssh UI with pygtk heh
Jul 10 23:50:52 <andylockran> pavelm_away: thanks for the tips
Jul 10 23:50:56 <cb22> Python is rather fun :)
Jul 10 23:50:57 <bmk789> has anyone gotten a network bridge to openmoko in qemu to work?
Jul 10 23:51:15 <andylockran> I like the idea of integrating the python jokes into the code
Jul 10 23:51:24 <andylockran> that just made me want to learn the language
Jul 10 23:51:25 <Elrond> Yes, python and pygtk are fun. I use that for gps analysing.
Jul 10 23:51:40 <andylockran> Elrond: do you do anything for openstreetmap?
Jul 10 23:51:55 <Elrond> andylockran - I was doing, yes.
Jul 10 23:52:05 <Elrond> andylockran - I'm currently on osm-vacation. ;o)
Jul 10 23:52:34 <andylockran> Elrond: kewl.  How difficult will it be to create maps using the neo as the tracer?
Jul 10 23:52:39 <linux_galore> when the GTA02 comes out the openmoko will be an network admins must have tool, 1001 shell/ui apps
Jul 10 23:52:51 <cb22> I'm just wondering here, my parents are going to the US in october, and I live in south africa, would it be worth it to get them to try and get the phone there, or am I better off ordering online?
Jul 10 23:52:56 <andylockran> Is it a case of uploading your trace onto the site and laballing the roads?
Jul 10 23:52:59 <linux_galore> doesnt the openmoko support X11 ?
Jul 10 23:53:08 <andylockran> s/laballing/labelling/
Jul 10 23:53:09 <apt> andylockran meant: Is it a case of uploading your trace onto the site and labelling the roads?
Jul 10 23:53:16 <Elrond> andylockran - Currently... well, not more difficult then using a dumb gps mouse and your linux laptop. ;)
Jul 10 23:53:57 <andylockran> ooh, so much more that just a phone..
Jul 10 23:54:00 <Elrond> linux_galore - Yes, it's all X11.
Jul 10 23:54:29 <linux_galore> ssh+X11+wifi with access to a powerful PC = major wow factor, Yeah I play second life on my phone all the time, what you cant do that on your iphone
Jul 10 23:54:37 <Elrond> andylockran - It's a full linux thingy. Running X11. Just only the RAM and FS are limited.
Jul 10 23:55:17 <pavelm_away> andylock: mokomenu.py serves as a very dumb NMEA recorder... and moko is actually quite good gps.
Jul 10 23:55:37 <pavelm_away> andy: It would be cool to add "type of road " buttons, and save position and type of button pressed.
Jul 10 23:55:55 <linux_galore> yeah, the gps hacks will be the most fun
Jul 10 23:56:15 <pavelm_away> andy: mokomenu currently only displays lan/lot, adding for example #of sattelites locked display would be cool.
Jul 10 23:56:36 <Elrond> pavelm_away - Yeah and "average my current position", etc.  I have seen the commercial handheld gps thingies. Oh well, I was considering to spend $$ on it.
Jul 10 23:56:40 <linux_galore> although if you think about it the openmoko is so hackable it would be a great spy tool
Jul 10 23:57:03 <andylockran> a mash up of all it's capabilities rolled into one app will be rather powerful
Jul 10 23:57:27 <Elrond> linux_galore - spy tool?
Jul 10 23:57:28 <andylockran> I like the idea of ringtone volume set on location
Jul 10 23:58:08 <andylockran> turn it to a different ringtone in the office as compared to your home
Jul 10 23:58:09 <linux_galore> Elrond: attach one to a car with a init script to sms the gps position back to another phone every 30 seconds
Jul 10 23:58:27 <andylockran> linux_galore: could be expensive like that
Jul 10 23:58:35 <cb22> Even better, tell it to upload the data via GPRS
Jul 10 23:58:39 <andylockran> why not just open up a gprs connection for tracking..
Jul 10 23:58:48 <andylockran> cb22: great minds think alike...
Jul 10 23:58:54 <cb22> agreed :)
Jul 10 23:58:59 <Elrond> hehe.
Jul 10 23:59:07 <Elrond> gprs and ssh into the phone. :-)
Jul 10 23:59:34 <ozzloy> what providers can i use with the fic 1973?  any gms?
Jul 10 23:59:37 <linux_galore> or have a wifi scanner app looking for open routers
Jul 10 23:59:40 <andylockran> Sorry for a n00b question, but once the mokomakefile has finished compiling - how far off will I be from loading the software as if in an emulator?
Jul 10 23:59:44 <SpeedEvil> can't ssh into phones
Jul 10 23:59:51 <Elrond> ozzloy - Check the wiki, please.
Jul 10 23:59:56 <SpeedEvil> they don't do incoming
Jul 11 00:00:00 <cb22> linux_galore, well, if they use an atheros chipset
Jul 11 00:00:10 <andylockran> SpeedEvil: surely that's a simple hack?
Jul 11 00:00:14 <pavelm_away> speed: They do
Jul 11 00:00:34 <pavelm_away> speed: Ask your network provider to tear down the firewall for you.
Jul 11 00:00:38 <SpeedEvil> I mean most providers don't allow incoming connections over GPRS
Jul 11 00:00:41 <Elrond> SpeedEvil - Hmm, the neo could do a ping outside, and then tunnel back? :-)
Jul 11 00:00:51 <linux_galore> if the GTA03 has a digicam then we now have a serious spy tool
Jul 11 00:01:17 <Elrond> linux_galore - *G* Yeah.
Jul 11 00:01:20 <SpeedEvil> Elrond: that works
Jul 11 00:01:34 <Elrond> SpeedEvil - And you can trigger the neo by sms ;-)
Jul 11 00:01:37 <pavelm_away> speed: O2 czech does, if you ask them nicely.
Jul 11 00:01:49 <_alcik_> Hi guys... anyone of you ordered P1?
Jul 11 00:01:53 <SpeedEvil> Elrond: unless you've got an unlimited contract - you really don't want botnets/... scanning you.
Jul 11 00:02:00 <pavelm_away> speed: Of course, you want unlimited data for _that_.
Jul 11 00:02:26 <pavelm_away> good night, everyone!
Jul 11 00:02:35 <linux_galore> heh, biggest purchaser of the moko is "the company"
Jul 11 00:02:48 <Elrond> SpeedEvil - Well, as I said: sms-to-neo "hi neo, please create tunnel home, I want to ssh to you" ;)
Jul 11 00:02:49 <andylockran> pavelm_away: night!
Jul 11 00:02:55 <linux_galore> Im out
Jul 11 00:03:10 <pavelm_away> linux: the Kompany?
Jul 11 00:03:17 <SpeedEvil> Hmm. 385 bytes/sec is 1G/mo
Jul 11 00:04:08 <ferric> _alcik_: i did
Jul 11 00:04:17 <pavelm_away> was the "dumb usb charger" problem solved somehow? Will it at least charge with 100mA?
Jul 11 00:04:44 <SpeedEvil> As I understand it not with the default software.
Jul 11 00:04:44 <_alcik_> did U get some confirmation? or do U know that anybody did?
Jul 11 00:04:50 <Elrond> pavelm_away - It should charge at 100mA in "off mode".
Jul 11 00:05:02 <SpeedEvil> The supplied charger has a resistor added, which the neo can sense somehow
Jul 11 00:05:04 <ferric> _alcik_: did you get an rt email?
Jul 11 00:05:19 <_alcik_> yeah... and thats it....
Jul 11 00:05:22 <pavelm_away> elrond: aha.. but if I leave it booted in gui in dumb charger, it will just drain the battery? Bad :-(
Jul 11 00:05:33 <ferric> _alcik_: as far as i know that's all you're supposed to get...
Jul 11 00:05:42 <ozzloy> Elrond: i've already looked at the wiki, it says any gsm should be compatible.  does "compatible" mean "will provide me with service"?
Jul 11 00:05:45 <Elrond> pavelm_away - The cpu/lcd will eat more than 100mA ;-)
Jul 11 00:05:45 <ferric> (but i may have heard that some people got another email confirming their order)
Jul 11 00:06:00 <pavelm_away> elrond: Bad...
Jul 11 00:06:05 <pavelm_away> good night!
Jul 11 00:06:23 <Elrond> ozzloy - That's the idea, yes. But nobody will give you a 100% guarentee. :-)
Jul 11 00:06:25 <_alcik_> 'Please keep in mind that this message does not imply that we accept your order, but thats we have received it.
Jul 11 00:06:25 <_alcik_> You will receive another message as order confirmation after our staff has accepted it.
Jul 11 00:06:43 <Elrond> ozzloy - There's a list of tested / should-really-really work provicers on the wiki.
Jul 11 00:07:12 <ferric> _alcik_: that would the message then. what rt id are you?
Jul 11 00:07:30 * ferric is 2712 - if it's only 1000 phones
Jul 11 00:07:32 <ferric> :/
Jul 11 00:07:53 <Elrond> ferric - They will produce more, if people ask. At least they keep telling that.
Jul 11 00:08:08 <_alcik_> 2048 but they realy started counting from 1?
Jul 11 00:08:30 <Elrond> 2<<11 ;) nice
Jul 11 00:08:33 <ferric> _alcik_: http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2007-July/006757.html
Jul 11 00:08:37 <Elrond> s/2/1
Jul 11 00:08:55 <ferric> Elrond: they've ben... unreliable in the past :)
Jul 11 00:09:03 <andylockran> started from 1820 we guess
Jul 11 00:09:13 <andylockran> I'm 1879 :p - really hope I get one
Jul 11 00:10:15 <ferric> heh
Jul 11 00:11:25 <Elrond> 1820 - 2712... about 900 already... hmm.
Jul 11 00:11:36 <_alcik_> DAMN... i have missed that post
Jul 11 00:11:56 <Elrond> I need to go to bed now.
Jul 11 00:12:44 <_alcik_> in fact I have not received any mail from any of list for about 16 hours.... 
Jul 11 00:13:00 <andylockran> night everyone
Jul 11 00:13:08 <Elrond> Yes: Night everyone.
Jul 11 00:14:49 <_alcik_> ferric did U get some emails from community list today?
Jul 11 00:15:07 <ferric> _alcik_: no, i haven't gotten any emails
Jul 11 00:15:12 <ferric> _alcik_: that is strange, yes
Jul 11 00:16:12 <_alcik_> ferric how about this link above... its from today, 9pm.... :)
Jul 11 00:16:48 <ferric> _alcik_: something funny is going on
Jul 11 00:18:33 <mil_> hi. "Please keep in mind that this message does not imply that we accept your order, but thats we have received it.
Jul 11 00:18:33 <mil_> You will receive another message as order confirmation after our staff has accepted it" did anyone get the order confirmation yet?
Jul 11 00:19:10 <_alcik_> mil_ I did not :(
Jul 11 00:19:29 <ferric> neither did I
Jul 11 00:19:39 <ferric> andylockran: did you get 2 messages or 1?
Jul 11 00:19:49 <_alcik_> ANYONE did?
Jul 11 00:20:50 <mil_> but did you get the auto reply? only got that one.
Jul 11 00:21:58 <_alcik_> mil_ autoreply yes... order confirmation no... Im really hoping that is because OM guys went to sleep and not because I have ordered too late...
Jul 11 00:22:27 <_alcik_> or too celebrate ;-)
Jul 11 00:22:32 <_alcik_> to
Jul 11 00:22:59 * mil_ made this order early, but still just the autoreply mail in inbox
Jul 11 00:23:59 <_alcik_> mil_ how early, and what order no U got? 
Jul 11 00:24:19 <mil_> 2097
Jul 11 00:25:26 <_alcik_> well Im just before U... Please keep in mind that this message does not imply that we accept your order, but thats we have received it.
Jul 11 00:25:26 <_alcik_> You will receive another message as order confirmation after our staff has accepted it.
Jul 11 00:25:35 <_alcik_> sorry for that
Jul 11 00:30:02 * mil_ is building openmoko with ruby 1.8.5 now *fingers crossed*
Jul 11 00:31:42 <spinexorz> anyone know if the neo can play FLVs, or is it that all video is slow on it?
Jul 11 00:31:42 <aloril> spinexorz: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.)
Jul 11 00:32:54 <SpeedEvil> There is no flash player from macromedia
Jul 11 00:33:00 <SpeedEvil> so it's open source only
Jul 11 00:33:29 <spinexorz> you dont need flash player to play an FLV file though
Jul 11 00:33:43 <spinexorz> mplayer plays them
Jul 11 00:33:50 <spinexorz> so does gstreamer
Jul 11 00:34:32 <SpeedEvil> mplayer doesn't play youtube
Jul 11 00:34:47 <SpeedEvil> Says 'no compressed flv' recently for me
Jul 11 00:35:11 <_alcik_> it plays it for me...
Jul 11 00:35:24 <spikebike> er much of mplayer is propietary
Jul 11 00:35:32 <spikebike> depends on which codecs you have
Jul 11 00:35:38 <spinexorz> i dont care about youtube, i just figured a movie in FLV format would probably play better
Jul 11 00:35:58 <spikebike> so it works in mplayer != works with opensource
Jul 11 00:36:17 <zecke> night
Jul 11 00:36:33 <spikebike> requireing apt-get install win32codecs is a bad sign 
Jul 11 00:36:40 <spinexorz> lol
Jul 11 00:36:47 <_alcik_> spikebike U could be right:-) i cant remember now what i have installed...
Jul 11 00:37:36 <spinexorz> so theres no way to make the current model play any video at full speed in fullscreen?
Jul 11 00:37:43 <mil_> SpeedEvil: did the playback video used a compressed codec? tought it was only some kind of uncompressed avi due to the speed issues
Jul 11 00:37:55 <SpeedEvil> spinexorz: yes, you can
Jul 11 00:38:05 <SpeedEvil> spinexorz: there is a QVGA mode for the 
Jul 11 00:38:07 <SpeedEvil> LCD
Jul 11 00:38:17 <SpeedEvil> At that, the CPU can easily do the decoding.
Jul 11 00:38:26 <spinexorz> oh yea
Jul 11 00:38:32 <spinexorz> i hadnt thought aboutt that
Jul 11 00:38:52 <spinexorz> i really want a neo but im going to wait for the next model
Jul 11 00:38:58 <SpeedEvil> Personally - unless you are going to jam the phone in your eye, eveh 320*240 may be overkill.
Jul 11 00:39:26 <SpeedEvil> It's 140DPI. That's better than all desktop monitors.
Jul 11 00:40:48 <spinexorz> so in qvga i CAN play video at full speed? can X be backgrounded?
Jul 11 00:41:41 <SpeedEvil> yes, dunno exactly how it's done.
Jul 11 00:42:09 <SpeedEvil> It may even be a seperate x server or something silly.
Jul 11 00:43:08 <SpeedEvil> Eventually it'll be made nice
Jul 11 00:43:25 <galexande> speed, you know not of which you speak
Jul 11 00:43:26 <galexande> you'll see
Jul 11 00:43:34 <galexande> well maybe with luck you'll never actually use a qvga palmtop :)
Jul 11 00:43:45 <spinexorz> http://youtube.com/watch?v=yjhzm_hpEbo
Jul 11 00:43:48 <galexande> (i'm excited)
Jul 11 00:43:56 <spinexorz> im not, not for this version
Jul 11 00:44:25 <SpeedEvil> galexande: For average video. Not for text
Jul 11 00:44:29 <galexande> speed, oh
Jul 11 00:44:30 <galexande> :)
Jul 11 00:44:55 <spinexorz> the thing is playing like 1 frame every 5 seconds
Jul 11 00:45:36 <delinka> 0.2FPS! w00t!
Jul 11 00:45:41 <spinexorz> lol
Jul 11 00:45:59 <spinexorz> i hope the nect model comes with 3d acceleration
Jul 11 00:47:15 <SpeedEvil> spinexorz: what are you playing
Jul 11 00:47:35 <SpeedEvil> And on what?
Jul 11 00:47:47 <spinexorz> what do you mean?
Jul 11 00:47:55 <SpeedEvil> to get 1 frame/5s
Jul 11 00:48:05 <spinexorz> http://youtube.com/watch?v=yjhzm_hpEbo
Jul 11 00:48:07 <spinexorz> not me
Jul 11 00:48:13 <spinexorz> i dont have a neo yet
Jul 11 00:48:53 <spinexorz> thats straight out of FICs headquarters
Jul 11 00:50:48 <anrp> that's ... pretty terrible
Jul 11 00:51:07 <anrp> but then again 461mhz pxa255 is barely enough for 320x240 anyway
Jul 11 00:51:18 <anrp> 266mhz arm9 is probably going to fare far worse
Jul 11 00:51:39 <SpeedEvil> At what codec?
Jul 11 00:51:40 <spinexorz> i wouldnt mind playing really low quality video in a format that doesnt strain the proc much
Jul 11 00:51:49 <anrp> h.263
Jul 11 00:51:49 <SpeedEvil> You're not talking mpeg4
Jul 11 00:51:50 <spinexorz> i was thinking FLV
Jul 11 00:51:55 <SpeedEvil> but mpeg1
Jul 11 00:52:10 <SpeedEvil> h.263 - no way
Jul 11 00:52:16 <anrp> its still a lot of bits to move around without hardware assist
Jul 11 00:52:23 <anrp> even just the video stream is a lot of memory bandwidth
Jul 11 00:52:31 <SpeedEvil> It's not really.
Jul 11 00:52:41 <anrp> ?
Jul 11 00:52:46 <SpeedEvil> I've played mpeg1 video on a P100
Jul 11 00:52:54 <SpeedEvil> which is around the same class of hardware
Jul 11 00:52:58 <anrp> simple codecs you can do...
Jul 11 00:53:27 <anrp> at least that smedia chip has h/w mpeg assist
Jul 11 00:53:35 <spinexorz> huh?
Jul 11 00:53:41 <anrp> for gta02
Jul 11 00:53:41 <spinexorz> is that in the current model?
Jul 11 00:53:49 <anrp> no :/
Jul 11 00:53:56 <SpeedEvil> Some tests with a 2.8" video indicated that 200kbits/s at 120*160 was pretty much OK.
Jul 11 00:53:57 <spinexorz> *sadface*
Jul 11 00:54:04 <SpeedEvil> On my desktop display
Jul 11 00:54:09 <anrp> 120x160 though...
Jul 11 00:54:18 <anrp> it is only 2.7" across, true, but still
Jul 11 00:54:25 <SpeedEvil> You may want more
Jul 11 00:54:41 <anrp> may? ;/
Jul 11 00:54:51 <spinexorz> yea thats not a lot of definition
Jul 11 00:54:56 <SpeedEvil> 210*160 or so is pretty much OK unless you hold it very close.
Jul 11 00:55:02 <anrp> i have realistic expectations, audio at least will be fine
Jul 11 00:55:11 <anrp> and i'm not really going to be watching video on a 2.7" screen regardless
Jul 11 00:55:13 <SpeedEvil> MP3 reportedly takes 25% CPU
Jul 11 00:55:30 <anrp> that's believable
Jul 11 00:55:38 <SpeedEvil> Which is annoying.
Jul 11 00:55:47 <anrp> libmad?
Jul 11 00:55:56 <SpeedEvil> Because even with the next gen hardware accel, it'll mean that you can't slow the CPU down
Jul 11 00:56:19 <SpeedEvil> (there is a 12Mhz mode which uses very little power)
Jul 11 00:56:26 <anrp> not continuously, true, but you can cycle speeds
Jul 11 00:56:38 <SpeedEvil> anrp: maybe.
Jul 11 00:56:52 <anrp> and you can also do dynamic frequency scaling on the s3c2410
Jul 11 00:56:55 <SpeedEvil> anrp: There is no buffering in the ADC.
Jul 11 00:56:58 <anrp> so you could clock it to 60mhz for instance
Jul 11 00:57:26 <SpeedEvil> anrp: have you actually done this/
Jul 11 00:57:39 <spinexorz> anyone here know long would the battery last playing 128kb MP3?
Jul 11 00:57:39 <anrp> i was looking at the datasheet, the PLL is configurable
Jul 11 00:57:45 <anrp> but no i have not
Jul 11 00:57:48 <anrp> i have no hardware D:
Jul 11 00:57:51 <anrp> someone should fix that!
Jul 11 00:57:55 <SpeedEvil> spinexorz: At least 6 hours.
Jul 11 00:58:05 <galexande> my ipaq with famplayer and 300x225 mpeg2 at 240kBits/sec...can decode about 7fps
Jul 11 00:58:05 * rwhitby watches lots of google videos on the n800 on the way to work and back on the bus - openmoko should be able to replace that.
Jul 11 00:58:06 <spinexorz> cool
Jul 11 00:58:07 <spinexorz> thx
Jul 11 00:58:09 <SpeedEvil> spinexorz: it's almost certainly going to be less than 12.
Jul 11 00:58:11 <galexande> it's a 206mhz strongarm
Jul 11 00:58:16 <anrp> 266 D:
Jul 11 00:58:32 <anrp> if you run the core at 2V then it's guarenteed to operate normally at 266
Jul 11 00:58:40 <anrp> they only allow up to 206 when Vcore is 1.8
Jul 11 00:58:59 <rwhitby> root
Jul 11 00:59:15 <SpeedEvil> I _think_ the core voltage can be fiddled with on the fly.
Jul 11 00:59:29 <anrp> if the plc51??? allows it; is it switching?
Jul 11 00:59:34 <SpeedEvil> yes
Jul 11 00:59:44 <anrp> then you can do all sorts of crazy stuff
Jul 11 00:59:46 <SpeedEvil> I need to do more reading on that bit.
Jul 11 00:59:49 <galexande> star trek is totally watchable, but famplayer sucks
Jul 11 01:00:30 <galexande> i think if you reencode stuff specifically for it, it will be a perfectly enjoyable experience.  i don't know how many consumers want to do that
Jul 11 01:00:47 <anrp> if you wrap it in a nice interface, no biggie
Jul 11 01:01:02 <anrp> lavc/mencoder can deal with almost everything so its very possible
Jul 11 01:01:20 <galexande> consumers will have a gfx accelerator anyways
Jul 11 01:01:23 <linux_galore> there are a few Linux UI based tools for re-encoding video file that are very easy to use
Jul 11 01:01:29 <linux_galore> ie dvdrippomatic
Jul 11 01:01:39 <galexande> someone, i think mickey, said that the video is actually quite fast, so the s3c may be faster than the ipaq.
Jul 11 01:01:52 <SpeedEvil> Look on video_player
Jul 11 01:01:53 <SpeedEvil> on the wiki
Jul 11 01:01:59 <anrp> for a specific application, you can make a simple app that takes anything and downcodes it to something small
Jul 11 01:02:05 <SpeedEvil> someone said that it got to 23fps QVGA
Jul 11 01:02:22 <anrp> eh?
Jul 11 01:02:24 <SpeedEvil> But that was completely unoptimised
Jul 11 01:02:29 <anrp> Vcode default is 2.1V
Jul 11 01:02:34 <anrp> *core
Jul 11 01:02:40 <linux_galore> I use a GP2X to watch video files on the move because you dont have to re-encode it will resize on the fly just about anything
Jul 11 01:03:09 <linux_galore> they are pretty cheap to buy too only about AU$200
Jul 11 01:03:09 <SpeedEvil> I would have bought a GP2X.
Jul 11 01:03:32 <SpeedEvil> But lack of wifi killed it
Jul 11 01:03:33 <SpeedEvil> for me
Jul 11 01:03:59 <linux_galore> SpeedEvil: you can use a wifi usb dongle with it just fine
Jul 11 01:04:06 <SpeedEvil> Well - yes.
Jul 11 01:04:13 <SpeedEvil> That's not really portable though.
Jul 11 01:04:32 <linux_galore> SpeedEvil: there is even a company that has made a break out IO board for the things 
Jul 11 01:05:49 <linux_galore> SpeedEvil: I have a short lead -> usb wifi dongle and that sits happily inside its case
Jul 11 01:05:59 <linux_galore> leather case*
Jul 11 01:06:08 <SpeedEvil> Hmm.
Jul 11 01:06:11 <SpeedEvil> Anyway.
Jul 11 01:06:19 <SpeedEvil> I have no money for the Neo
Jul 11 01:06:28 <SpeedEvil> I also have no money for the Neo + GP2X
Jul 11 01:06:43 <linux_galore> SpeedEvil: buy a Nokia N770 on ebay
Jul 11 01:06:52 <linux_galore> or a Zaurus 560
Jul 11 01:06:52 <SpeedEvil> Again, no money.
Jul 11 01:06:55 <linux_galore> 5600
Jul 11 01:06:58 <SpeedEvil> And I'd buy a new 770
Jul 11 01:07:08 <anrp> 5600 was pretty weak
Jul 11 01:07:09 <SpeedEvil> As they are the same price as on ebay, plus warranty
Jul 11 01:07:15 <SpeedEvil> (or were last time I looked)
Jul 11 01:07:17 <anrp> the c???? series was a lot better form factor
Jul 11 01:07:41 <linux_galore> SpeedEvil: there is this weird thing called "selling stuff" you buy something cheap then sell it to make money
Jul 11 01:08:09 <SpeedEvil> linux_galore: problems obtaining stuff to sell. Lack of cash at the moment.
Jul 11 01:08:16 <SpeedEvil> Bits fell off my house.
Jul 11 01:08:28 <SpeedEvil> I had to replace them as water was getting in.
Jul 11 01:08:29 <spinexorz> QVGA on 2.7" FTW lol
Jul 11 01:09:00 <SpeedEvil> Hence no money for neo, though I've already bought the bits to add hardware onto it and possibly sell.
Jul 11 01:09:06 <linux_galore> SpeedEvil: I have to buy a new TV, so my budget is blown
Jul 11 01:09:18 <unknown_lamer> have to buy a tv
Jul 11 01:09:18 <anrp> have to?
Jul 11 01:09:22 <SpeedEvil> But I can't sell them as I can't design/test with the Neo I don't have.
Jul 11 01:09:27 <linux_galore> yeah its dying
Jul 11 01:09:33 <unknown_lamer> tv is lame
Jul 11 01:09:38 * SpeedEvil passes linux_galore bittorrent.
Jul 11 01:09:48 <linux_galore> SpeedEvil: my wife watches TV
Jul 11 01:09:54 <linux_galore> I dont
Jul 11 01:09:56 <anrp> the truth emerges
Jul 11 01:10:01 <anrp> figured it would be for the missus
Jul 11 01:10:05 <SpeedEvil> Well - wife is a handy thing to have :)
Jul 11 01:10:15 <unknown_lamer> books!
Jul 11 01:10:24 <linux_galore> if she doesnt have a TV then I have to listen to her crap
Jul 11 01:10:32 <unknown_lamer> time to get a new wife
Jul 11 01:10:53 * SpeedEvil starts to write up the WifeSwap app on the wiki.
Jul 11 01:10:58 <linux_galore> heh
Jul 11 01:11:18 <SpeedEvil> Done right, GPS personals could be interesting.
Jul 11 01:11:29 <SpeedEvil> Done wrong - Stalking time!
Jul 11 01:11:51 <linux_galore> I actually have another TV in the bedroom so Im not bothered much but its nice to watch a DVD on a large screeb
Jul 11 01:11:53 <linux_galore> screen
Jul 11 01:11:59 <unknown_lamer> that's what the 24" crt is for
Jul 11 01:12:22 <linux_galore> she wants a 80cm + LCD unit
Jul 11 01:12:57 <linux_galore> I have a 22" LCD on the computer of course (always look after No# 1)
Jul 11 01:13:25 <linux_galore> Dell have the 27" high res LCD's on special I noticed
Jul 11 01:13:55 <linux_galore> wonder if I can find a digital set top box with DVI output
Jul 11 01:14:49 <linux_galore> Im out shit to do
Jul 11 01:15:16 <DukeOfUrl> I have a USB TV tuner, but it really heats-up my Mac Powerbook.
Jul 11 01:18:03 * SpeedEvil passes DukeOfUrl a fan.
Jul 11 01:22:24 <SpeedEvil> Hmm. When downloaded does http://youtube.com/watch?v=5D6i6vLlhGA&mode=related&search= - the AGPS/drop-test play for anyone in mplayer?
Jul 11 01:22:30 <SpeedEvil> just makes strange noises for me.
Jul 11 01:24:29 <galexande> it works great for me speedevil
Jul 11 01:26:34 <galexande> it seems to use libavformat to decode it
Jul 11 01:26:52 <galexande> the ffflv codec in ffmpeg
Jul 11 01:27:28 <anrp> it looks like you could get power consumption in middle speed normal mode down to 81mW at 67MHz with Vcore = 1.5
Jul 11 01:27:36 <anrp> with back of envelope calculations
Jul 11 01:27:54 <anrp> probably less
Jul 11 01:28:36 <anrp> also the 33mW figure would be scaled by 1.5/1.8 if you do voltage control
Jul 11 01:29:12 <anrp> the pcf50606 has this huge hole in the middle of the voltage range though, that's a real shame
Jul 11 01:29:25 <anrp> goes 1.475-1.5-1.8-2.1 (?)
Jul 11 01:29:33 <anrp> with 25mV steps below 1.5 -_-
Jul 11 01:30:25 <anrp> sadly min spec voltage is 1.5 for the processor
Jul 11 01:30:49 <SpeedEvil> galexande: misdetects format here
Jul 11 01:31:24 <riot> hi :)
Jul 11 01:32:07 <SpeedEvil> anrp: are you counting PLL power?
Jul 11 01:32:22 <anrp> for the 87mw figure?
Jul 11 01:32:25 <SpeedEvil> yes
Jul 11 01:32:43 <anrp> yes, that number is derived from the worst case normal mode power figure
Jul 11 01:32:57 <SpeedEvil> ah
Jul 11 01:33:03 <anrp> 297 * (1.5/1.8)(voltage control) * (67/203)(downclock)
Jul 11 01:33:14 <anrp> power is proportional to both of those numbers so...
Jul 11 01:33:20 <SpeedEvil> The PLLs use a constant amount of power 
Jul 11 01:33:24 <SpeedEvil> As I understand it.
Jul 11 01:33:34 <SpeedEvil> It's not really proportional to frequency
Jul 11 01:33:56 <anrp> the pll is very little though from what I understand, since the outputs aren't that much
Jul 11 01:34:04 <anrp> a bit of capacitive loading but that's all
Jul 11 01:34:13 <SpeedEvil> I remembered it as 30mA
Jul 11 01:34:19 <anrp> 30mA? no way
Jul 11 01:34:23 <anrp> thats obscene..
Jul 11 01:34:28 <SpeedEvil> I agree.
Jul 11 01:34:34 <SpeedEvil> I don't have the datasheet here.
Jul 11 01:34:34 <riot> has anyone experience in getting a provider (say eplus) to subsidize a neo?
Jul 11 01:34:35 <aloril> riot: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.)
Jul 11 01:34:44 <SpeedEvil> riot: unlikely.
Jul 11 01:34:48 <anrp> ?
Jul 11 01:34:52 <anrp> http://web.mit.edu/anrp/www/s3c/
Jul 11 01:34:55 <SpeedEvil> riot: it's not even a functional phone at the moment.
Jul 11 01:34:59 <anrp> that's the latest processor datasheet, if you want it
Jul 11 01:34:59 <hads> riot: It's not a phone yet
Jul 11 01:35:35 <anrp> p495 has the breakdowns
Jul 11 01:35:47 <anrp> 30mA on the PLL would put it at more than all of the other peripherals combined
Jul 11 01:35:54 <SpeedEvil> Yes.
Jul 11 01:36:09 <anrp> maybe it was 30mW?
Jul 11 01:36:10 * SpeedEvil tries to remember where he saw that.
Jul 11 01:36:13 <anrp> or 30uA ..
Jul 11 01:36:14 <SpeedEvil> Maybe.
Jul 11 01:36:18 <SpeedEvil> not uA
Jul 11 01:36:22 <SpeedEvil> not for a 266Mhz PLL
Jul 11 01:36:30 <riot> ok, so i'd rather take some "expensive" phone to my extension of contract and sell that on ebay?
Jul 11 01:36:34 <SpeedEvil> You're looking at several mA at least.
Jul 11 01:36:43 <SpeedEvil> riot: that's probably the only way it'll work.
Jul 11 01:36:50 <riot> interesting info in the wiki :)
Jul 11 01:36:51 <SpeedEvil> riot: call them - you never know.
Jul 11 01:37:20 <riot> SpeedEvil: yeah, had that in mind. I'd probably want to lease a mobile data flat - they shall pay me to do so >;)
Jul 11 01:38:02 <riot> Interesting project.. veeery interesting :D
Jul 11 01:38:17 <anrp> it doesn't go into detail about the pll power consumption anywhere, afaict
Jul 11 01:38:28 <aloril> (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Category:Neo1973_alternate_cases]] [[Alternate_Neo1973_case_designs]] [[Alternate_colours/materials]] [[Scroll-wheel]] [[Removal_of_free_space]] [[Hardware_keyboard_docking_station]] [[Analogue_gaming]] [[Square_case]] [[Digital_gaming]] and other changes
Jul 11 01:38:58 <anrp> should be easy enough to figure out with hardware though, use the pll and enter 11.289mhz mode and compare against slow mode
Jul 11 01:39:14 <SpeedEvil> Hmm.
Jul 11 01:39:24 <SpeedEvil> This isn't the version I remember.
Jul 11 01:39:29 <anrp> there are two
Jul 11 01:39:35 <anrp> the earlier one talks about the 266mhz part
Jul 11 01:39:37 <SpeedEvil> Ah
Jul 11 01:39:38 <anrp> the newer one doesn't
Jul 11 01:39:40 <SpeedEvil> I remember.
Jul 11 01:39:51 <SpeedEvil> It was a posting about the bugs in the P0 on the phone.
Jul 11 01:40:04 <anrp> since the arm IP isn't designed for that speed, it's just samsung testing above what the arm design is guarenteed for
Jul 11 01:40:10 <anrp> maybe arm got annoyed so they stopped doing that?
Jul 11 01:40:32 <anrp> 495 has the V-vs-speed graph though
Jul 11 01:40:42 <anrp> p495
Jul 11 01:40:46 <SpeedEvil> Something along the lines of 'due to a hardware error, the PLLs don't turn off properly, this means that it uses 30mW extra
Jul 11 01:40:49 <SpeedEvil> or somthing like it.
Jul 11 01:40:55 <anrp> oh. design error
Jul 11 01:41:01 <anrp> they needed the pll to stay on to supply a clock
Jul 11 01:41:06 <anrp> that was fixed for v4
Jul 11 01:41:25 <anrp> ...i think
Jul 11 01:42:10 <anrp> you could probably even run the core below 1.5V at a slow speed 
Jul 11 01:42:17 <anrp> but it looks like samsung doesn't test that
Jul 11 01:42:58 <SpeedEvil> anrp: Hmm - what speed can USB work down to.
Jul 11 01:43:01 <anrp> you could also go the other direction and run at 280mhz with vcore=2.1, since that vcore is the default anyway ~_~
Jul 11 01:43:05 <anrp> 48MHz min
Jul 11 01:43:11 <SpeedEvil> Somewhere it said something like clock E needs to be over 20Mhz
Jul 11 01:43:27 <SpeedEvil> where do you get that figure from?
Jul 11 01:43:45 <anrp> p243
Jul 11 01:44:01 <anrp> upllcon is the usb clock
Jul 11 01:44:07 <anrp> er upll
Jul 11 01:44:11 <anrp> upllcon is the contorl reg ~_~
Jul 11 01:44:33 <anrp> it has its own clock so it can stay at that frequency any time the core isn't in slow mode
Jul 11 01:44:40 <anrp> or off
Jul 11 01:44:50 <anrp> s/clock/pll/
Jul 11 01:45:36 <anrp> well, its not really 48mhz min, more like 48mhz any time its enabled
Jul 11 01:45:59 <anrp> most of the usb1.1 device datasheets i've looked at use some integral division from 48MHz as their clock
Jul 11 01:46:18 <anrp> usb2 is 480mbps.. there's probably a relation there D:
Jul 11 01:46:28 <SpeedEvil> So there is a seperate USB PLL?
Jul 11 01:46:30 <anrp> yes
Jul 11 01:46:38 <SpeedEvil> Missed that.
Jul 11 01:46:54 <anrp> it's not that obvious, upllcon is only mentioned 4 times in the entire document
Jul 11 01:47:37 <anrp> well. actually..
Jul 11 01:47:41 <anrp> p224, paragraph 2
Jul 11 01:47:52 <anrp> also p230
Jul 11 01:48:47 <SpeedEvil> Ah - right.
Jul 11 01:48:50 * SpeedEvil wonders.
Jul 11 01:48:55 <SpeedEvil> Is the 48Mhz outputted...
Jul 11 01:49:02 <anrp> its only to the usb block
Jul 11 01:49:54 <anrp> so i do think that getting audio mode power consumption maybe 2x above slow is possible
Jul 11 01:49:58 <anrp> well, 2-4x
Jul 11 01:50:20 <anrp> at least for the cpu...
Jul 11 01:51:50 <SpeedEvil> Looks like not
Jul 11 01:52:27 <SpeedEvil> I was wondering as I'm interested in adding another USB device inside the case, and losing the xtal would be nice.
Jul 11 01:52:54 <anrp> also there may be ultra optimized codecs available for arm, since arm is The Embedded Platform(tm)
Jul 11 01:53:18 <anrp> a lot of USB devices take 12MHz in and have an internal pll
Jul 11 01:53:20 <anrp> does yours?
Jul 11 01:53:22 <SpeedEvil> Pulling the bluetooth module, jamming in a hub chip into that port between the BT module and the socket, and then a port coming out to the back of the phone.
Jul 11 01:53:26 <anrp> (the board crystal is 12MHz)
Jul 11 01:53:32 <SpeedEvil> Oh - that might work.
Jul 11 01:53:42 <SpeedEvil> IIRC it can use 12 or 48
Jul 11 01:53:51 <anrp> then you're golden
Jul 11 01:53:53 <SpeedEvil> Small 4 port hub
Jul 11 01:53:57 <anrp> just have to watch capacitive loading
Jul 11 01:54:01 <SpeedEvil> Yeah
Jul 11 01:54:34 <SpeedEvil> Hmm.
Jul 11 01:54:44 <anrp> there are microscopic 12MHz resonators, i don't know if they're accurate enough for USB though..
Jul 11 01:54:47 <SpeedEvil> 60Mhz might just be fast enough to do mp3
Jul 11 01:54:51 <anrp> cstce series from murata
Jul 11 01:55:09 <codyl> I know this is the wrong place to ask, but does anyone know who I can talk to about my order from direct.openmoko.com ?
Jul 11 01:55:10 <SpeedEvil> You have hardware?
Jul 11 01:55:22 <SpeedEvil> codyl: you can talk to anyone here.
Jul 11 01:55:25 <anrp> i have usb design experience D: and some other misc electronic design
Jul 11 01:55:29 <anrp> but no neo
Jul 11 01:55:32 * anrp cracks whip
Jul 11 01:55:56 <SpeedEvil> anrp: oh - I thought you meant that was on the neo
Jul 11 01:56:07 <anrp> oh, no, the one in the neo is a normal quartz crystal
Jul 11 01:56:28 <codyl> SpeedEvil, I placed an order-  i got no confirmation for a day, then i got two confirmations with different ticket numbers
Jul 11 01:56:31 <SpeedEvil> Found a funky design using a small atmel chip to bit-bang slow USB
Jul 11 01:56:41 <anrp> bitbanging usb?
Jul 11 01:56:42 <anrp> eww ...
Jul 11 01:56:57 <SpeedEvil> codyl: email a response to one saying 'I only want one'
Jul 11 01:57:01 <codyl> anrp, in regards to the atmel bit-banged usb- it sucks USB 1.0
Jul 11 01:57:04 <SpeedEvil> They are manually processing theml.
Jul 11 01:57:12 <codyl> SpeedEvil, ive gotten no responses from anybody 
Jul 11 01:57:14 <SpeedEvil> USB1 is quite fine for some things.
Jul 11 01:57:16 <anrp> well low speed devices it might be ok
Jul 11 01:57:19 <anrp> sensors, hid, etc
Jul 11 01:57:25 <SpeedEvil> codyl: you won't.
Jul 11 01:57:28 <anrp> like that touch sensor :o
Jul 11 01:57:37 <SpeedEvil> codyl: prolly wait a day or two.
Jul 11 01:57:38 <anrp> but there are small micros with real usb interfaces now, so :/
Jul 11 01:57:41 <codyl> SpeedEvil, and sales@openmoko.com bounced
Jul 11 01:58:04 <SpeedEvil> anrp: actually. I'm planning on doing the touch sensor over SPI :)
Jul 11 01:58:13 <anrp> quantum chip?
Jul 11 01:58:15 <SpeedEvil> codyl: was that the reply-to on the email?
Jul 11 01:58:17 <anrp> or analog devices?
Jul 11 01:58:19 <SpeedEvil> anrp: analog
Jul 11 01:58:28 <anrp> mm
Jul 11 01:58:33 <anrp> well the spi bus is there to be used
Jul 11 01:58:47 <SpeedEvil> anrp: I have silly ideas about a PIC hooked up to the SPI bus, doing 'stuff'.
Jul 11 01:58:56 <anrp> that's not really silly D:
Jul 11 01:59:11 <SpeedEvil> Primarily reading 2 3-axis accels
Jul 11 01:59:25 <anrp> cant wait eh
Jul 11 01:59:45 <anrp> i did a pic implementation of an i2c-readable adc
Jul 11 01:59:48 <SpeedEvil> anrp: well - unfortunately. I've got all the hardware to start hacking on it.
Jul 11 01:59:49 <anrp> pic16f88?
Jul 11 01:59:54 <anrp> i think that comes in micro packages now
Jul 11 02:00:01 <SpeedEvil> anrp: but no cash to do an order.
Jul 11 02:00:08 <anrp> yeah, $ is always an issue :\
Jul 11 02:01:11 <SpeedEvil> Bits of my house fell off, had to stop rain getting in.
Jul 11 02:01:13 <anrp> you can always play with a breadboard and the accelerometers
Jul 11 02:01:20 <anrp> hooked to a computer, to play with filters..
Jul 11 02:01:28 <SpeedEvil> True.
Jul 11 02:01:30 <anrp> duct tape D:
Jul 11 02:02:03 <SpeedEvil> Having high winds here and rain was forecast at the time - it needed fixed properly unfortunately.
Jul 11 02:02:33 <anrp> too bad about that 
Jul 11 02:02:36 <SpeedEvil> :/
Jul 11 02:02:53 <SpeedEvil> Even got the stuff required to make the flex-PCBs.
Jul 11 02:02:58 * anrp still likes the duct tape idea D:
Jul 11 02:03:15 <anrp> mm?
Jul 11 02:03:27 <anrp> you were going to make a flex pcb? 
Jul 11 02:03:32 <anrp> those are obscenely expensive...
Jul 11 02:03:55 <anrp> unless you meant flex cables?
Jul 11 02:04:06 <SpeedEvil> Nope - I mean for mounting accels.
Jul 11 02:04:11 <SpeedEvil> And stuff.
Jul 11 02:04:16 <anrp> stuff D:
Jul 11 02:04:19 <anrp> better be good stuff
Jul 11 02:04:22 <anrp> like.. lights!
Jul 11 02:04:23 <SpeedEvil> I _think_ I can get it working - if not, well.
Jul 11 02:04:24 <anrp> all around the case
Jul 11 02:04:31 <SpeedEvil> Magnetometers.
Jul 11 02:04:33 <SpeedEvil> Maybe
Jul 11 02:04:43 <anrp> that's a big maybe, there's large current pulses from the gsm module
Jul 11 02:04:57 <SpeedEvil> Filters...?
Jul 11 02:05:03 <anrp> you could, i guess
Jul 11 02:05:10 * anrp needs to think positive
Jul 11 02:05:23 <SpeedEvil> It may not work. But would be nice.
Jul 11 02:05:34 <anrp> and its shielded, although i have no idea if the shield is ferromagnetic or just aluminum
Jul 11 02:05:38 <SpeedEvil> GPS + accels give a reasonably nice position solution.
Jul 11 02:05:50 <SpeedEvil> err
Jul 11 02:06:04 <SpeedEvil> accel + magnetometer gives a nice orientation solution I mean
Jul 11 02:06:09 <anrp> ah
Jul 11 02:06:14 <anrp> yeah i was confused there for a sec D:
Jul 11 02:06:20 <anrp> gyros help out a lot, but they
Jul 11 02:06:24 <anrp> 're $$$
Jul 11 02:06:29 <SpeedEvil> At the moment.
Jul 11 02:06:30 <galexande> does GPS give compass heading?
Jul 11 02:06:31 <anrp> and big
Jul 11 02:06:34 <anrp> gps can't
Jul 11 02:06:35 <SpeedEvil> galexande: no
Jul 11 02:06:39 <anrp> it can give you a moving heading though
Jul 11 02:06:42 <galexande> but it does give time, though?
Jul 11 02:06:42 <SpeedEvil> anrp: it can.
Jul 11 02:06:50 <anrp> so if you walk 1m, it can tell you what direction you walked
Jul 11 02:06:53 <anrp> but it can't give static heading
Jul 11 02:07:02 <SpeedEvil> anrp: but only on multiple antenna solutions. Or ones with nulling antennas.
Jul 11 02:07:06 <galexande> given time and location you can draw a line on the screen and hold a pen over it and use the shadow as a sundial
Jul 11 02:07:09 <anrp> neo is not that fancy D:
Jul 11 02:07:19 <DukeOfUrl> my Garmin has a compass--to calibrate you rotate the device 720 degrees
Jul 11 02:07:25 <DukeOfUrl> how does that work?
Jul 11 02:07:27 <anrp> it probably has a magnetometer
Jul 11 02:07:29 <SpeedEvil> DukeOfUrl: that's a magnetometer
Jul 11 02:07:29 <anrp> those are cheap
Jul 11 02:07:45 <DukeOfUrl> not GPS?
Jul 11 02:07:48 <anrp> ...
Jul 11 02:07:49 <anrp> it has both
Jul 11 02:07:55 <SpeedEvil> DukeOfUrl: it's a little chip that varies in resistance when exposed to magnetic field
Jul 11 02:08:00 <SpeedEvil> A compass essentially
Jul 11 02:08:03 <DukeOfUrl> oh
Jul 11 02:09:21 <bharath> hi all
Jul 11 02:09:38 <bharath> anyone knows when the second gen. openmoko phone might come out?
Jul 11 02:09:38 <aloril> bharath: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.)
Jul 11 02:09:46 <SpeedEvil> bharath: Oct
Jul 11 02:09:56 <anrp> for once that damn greeting knows the answer D:
Jul 11 02:10:00 <SpeedEvil> Might
Jul 11 02:10:03 <bharath> thanks speedevil
Jul 11 02:10:11 <SpeedEvil> Hardware - probably.
Jul 11 02:10:16 <SpeedEvil> Software may be lagging hten
Jul 11 02:10:33 <bharath> hmm... so is there a site that explains the improvements over the current phone?
Jul 11 02:10:56 <SpeedEvil> yes - the FAQ above I think
Jul 11 02:11:02 <SpeedEvil> Or the Neo1973 page on the wiki
Jul 11 02:11:31 <bharath> okay
Jul 11 02:11:34 <riot> http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973#.22Phase_2.22_.28GTA02.2C_.22Mass_Market.22.29
Jul 11 02:11:34 <bharath> thanks
Jul 11 02:11:57 <riot> quite interesting.
Jul 11 02:12:14 <bharath> wow... looks like the basic version alone will be 450 bucks for the second version
Jul 11 02:12:26 <anrp> yep
Jul 11 02:12:32 <riot> what are the current problems? Why is it not a "working phone"? Is that mentioned in the wiki?
Jul 11 02:12:38 <SpeedEvil> Software
Jul 11 02:12:44 <arachnid> riot: Most of the software isn't written
Jul 11 02:12:45 <galexande> riot, no text messages, the UI is pretty unusable
Jul 11 02:12:47 <SpeedEvil> there is a barely functioning dialer app.
Jul 11 02:12:47 <anrp> there's no usable phone software
Jul 11 02:12:49 <SpeedEvil> And that's about it
Jul 11 02:13:10 <galexande> riot, it's basically a set of APIs waiting for nirvana
Jul 11 02:13:23 <bharath> so they're basically waiting for the open source community to do the whole usable software thingy?
Jul 11 02:13:29 <doc|home> erm, need I point out that mr cobain is no longer with us? :/
Jul 11 02:13:29 <riot> is it able to give me a gprs-network connection?
Jul 11 02:13:36 <SpeedEvil> Pretty much
Jul 11 02:13:37 <ferric> riot: yes
Jul 11 02:13:47 <ferric> doc|home: what?!!!
Jul 11 02:14:00 <anrp> who?
Jul 11 02:14:10 <bharath> hmm.... would be interesting to see how it turns out
Jul 11 02:14:10 <anrp> oh. him
Jul 11 02:14:12 <ferric> chuckle
Jul 11 02:14:14 <riot> ferric: now.. ok. means i can run a jabber-client?? and write email? (at least, if i write meself a nice gui or use a bluetooth keyboard?..)
Jul 11 02:14:27 <doc|home> ferric: :)
Jul 11 02:14:34 <riot> does it sport python?
Jul 11 02:14:37 <ferric> riot: if you port a jabber client to openmoko, sure
Jul 11 02:14:39 <anrp> it can
Jul 11 02:14:42 <ferric> riot: check the wiki
Jul 11 02:14:42 <galexande> riot, you are able to give it a gprs-network connection
Jul 11 02:14:46 <anrp> its basically a linux machine
Jul 11 02:14:49 <doc|home> ferric: would a vanilla gtk one not work?
Jul 11 02:14:51 <anrp> to do whatever you want with
Jul 11 02:14:56 <anrp> right now at least
Jul 11 02:15:09 <ferric> doc|home: not sure. you could be right.
Jul 11 02:15:10 <galexande> vanilla gtk would work, you jus have to deal with build environment issues, and integrating it into their hacked matchbox panel.
Jul 11 02:15:13 <anrp> now, it doesn't actually *do* much, but it certainly can
Jul 11 02:15:26 <riot> if i can have python and network and can phone with people - then i'm all set - not much more required...
Jul 11 02:15:35 <riot> oh yes, lots of mp3.
Jul 11 02:15:39 <ferric> i wish someone would give more clarity on # of orders, when they're shipping etc.
Jul 11 02:15:57 <anrp> i'm just happy they committed to a sale date and kept with it
Jul 11 02:15:58 <hads> Why? Have some patience, they're busy.
Jul 11 02:15:58 <anrp> ;/
Jul 11 02:15:59 <bharath> so does anyone here already have the fone?
Jul 11 02:16:05 <anrp> some early devs do
Jul 11 02:16:06 <galexande> ferric, july 16th
Jul 11 02:16:14 <bharath> oh 16th.. ok
Jul 11 02:16:15 <ferric> hads: haven't we been patient enough? :)
Jul 11 02:16:16 <riot> a friend of mine developed an mpd-touchscreen-interface just some weeks ago (using python and pygame ;)
Jul 11 02:16:24 <anrp> mpd?
Jul 11 02:16:31 <ferric> galexande: so they say
Jul 11 02:16:32 <riot> musicplayerdaemon :)
Jul 11 02:16:41 <riot> http://musicpd.org/
Jul 11 02:16:45 <bharath> amarok will rule on the fone!!
Jul 11 02:16:46 <bharath> :D
Jul 11 02:16:57 <riot> bharath: uh oh. no, please not.
Jul 11 02:17:18 * anrp sees kindling
Jul 11 02:17:33 * ajmitch hopes that SMS functionality will be there soon
Jul 11 02:17:58 <riot> could it be nice to irc on the phone, using a bt-keyboard?
Jul 11 02:18:06 <galexande> riot, ircII would be easy to build
Jul 11 02:18:22 <riot> galexande: naaah. no way. i ssh into some other (BIG) box with irssi running ;)
Jul 11 02:18:32 <anrp> it does have a display but you have to realize how high the DPI is
Jul 11 02:18:35 <anrp> its really tiny...
Jul 11 02:18:38 <riot> ahh. gotta check software ports..
Jul 11 02:18:50 <anrp> so 80x25 would be hard to read
Jul 11 02:18:59 <anrp> that's under 0.1" height per line
Jul 11 02:19:00 <riot> anrp: yeah, i'm asking myself exactly that question.. will i need glasses? 8)
Jul 11 02:19:07 <ferric> you could up the font size though
Jul 11 02:19:15 <anrp> then you get less data... which may be ok
Jul 11 02:19:17 <ferric> pavel did that today
Jul 11 02:19:21 <riot> gotta try that out here..
Jul 11 02:19:22 <galexande> i'm thinknig 60x40 makes more sense, anyways
Jul 11 02:19:30 <galexande> :)
Jul 11 02:19:31 * riot makes a nice ion window of 640x480
Jul 11 02:19:43 <riot> oh, wait, its rotated.. :)
Jul 11 02:20:45 <riot> eek. quite tiny. My statusbar is _far_ too big :D
Jul 11 02:21:14 <riot> i'm fascinated. What intriguing possibilities that phone offers..
Jul 11 02:21:22 <anrp> get one D:
Jul 11 02:25:03 <juri_> so, any word about what the ID# means?
Jul 11 02:25:29 <galexande> juri, it's an RT tracking number, it started at 1820 and includes several miscellaneous streams of information, but is mostly orders.
Jul 11 02:25:45 <anrp> ...mostly orders starting from around 1820
Jul 11 02:29:05 <NeoStrider> hello folks
Jul 11 02:29:32 <arw1> hello NeoStrider
Jul 11 02:29:59 <NeoStrider> whats up with that great phone?
Jul 11 02:29:59 <aloril> NeoStrider: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.)
Jul 11 02:31:07 <kalikiana> Cool, many people in here.
Jul 11 02:31:41 <Aria> Indeed.
Jul 11 02:32:38 <juri_> oh good. then i can expect to actually get a neo. :
Jul 11 02:32:42 <juri_> :)
Jul 11 02:32:42 <NeoStrider> does the Neo 1973 got any preview?
Jul 11 02:32:51 <kalikiana> I came here to see if openmoko is popular. I wonder if I should fetch the theme and see how my alpha version app would look in openmoko. :P
Jul 11 02:32:52 <NeoStrider> preview no
Jul 11 02:32:53 <NeoStrider> reviewe
Jul 11 02:32:55 <NeoStrider> review
Jul 11 02:33:09 <NeoStrider> whats app, kalikiana?
Jul 11 02:33:26 <galexande> kalikiana, imho the devkit is kind of a pain, i wouldn't bother unless i were to eventually get the phone
Jul 11 02:33:42 <galexande> it's pretty much the same as any other OE platform
Jul 11 02:33:55 <kalikiana> NeoStrider, I'm makin a web browser with webkit and somebody suggested openmoko would need one :)
Jul 11 02:34:05 <galexande> and how!
Jul 11 02:35:06 <NeoStrider> cool!
Jul 11 02:35:06 <riot> hmm.. should i wait for GTA02 or order now?
Jul 11 02:35:17 <NeoStrider> but the Neo doesnt have a browser?!
Jul 11 02:35:24 <kalikiana> So I looked in the wiki. I think if I really make a moko version, I should find out how you use a browser in a portable way because I don't have the money to test my gprs that much ;)
Jul 11 02:35:42 <kalikiana> NeoStrider, According to the wiki, it shall have one
Jul 11 02:36:16 <NeoStrider> thats bad!
Jul 11 02:36:37 <NeoStrider> i want to port my games to open moko too
Jul 11 02:36:46 <NeoStrider> but this OE scheme seems to complicated
Jul 11 02:36:49 <galexande> riot, you've probably missed the first round of gta01s, i'd wait until they get the first batch shipped and find out what the realistic time is for the second batch
Jul 11 02:36:53 <NeoStrider> Im very used to scratchbox already
Jul 11 02:37:01 <kalikiana> Yep, as far as I don't overdo it I'm using mobile Opera. Could be hard to compete :P
Jul 11 02:37:25 <galexande> kalikiana, if you're really working on a webkit browser, talk to zecke, because i think he is also.
Jul 11 02:37:30 <galexande> i don't think he's made it terribly far
Jul 11 02:38:07 <kalikiana> galexande, I have been talkin to him already, he's fixed some bugs for me :)
Jul 11 02:38:14 <galexande> sweet, then
Jul 11 02:39:09 <kalikiana> Didn't know he was so popular here. *g
Jul 11 02:39:38 <galexande> i just remembered reading his blog, it gave me hope that i wouldn't have to build my own web browser or use dillo :)
Jul 11 02:39:49 <riot> hmm. i definitely need python on the platform..
Jul 11 02:40:06 <galexande> +++++
Jul 11 02:40:08 <galexande> oops
Jul 11 02:40:08 <riot> and preferably twisted
Jul 11 02:40:40 <galexande> riot, you are free to install python, and it is trivial, but it is not part of the openmoko "platform"
Jul 11 02:40:43 <galexande> (may change+{
Jul 11 02:41:10 <riot> galexande: does it work? I'm unsure, the wiki doesn't explicitly mention the fact.
Jul 11 02:41:12 <galexande> so distributing python software may be a nuissance, or may not, depending on how well ipkg works out.
Jul 11 02:41:20 <galexande> riot, it sure does, and there is at least a good start on gui bindings for it
Jul 11 02:41:24 <riot> yay!
Jul 11 02:41:46 <riot> i'm ordering..
Jul 11 02:43:44 <NeoStrider> its so funny to see all this iPhone vs OpenMoko
Jul 11 02:43:54 <NeoStrider> I never saw that comming
Jul 11 02:44:02 <NeoStrider> and yet, its very good for us
Jul 11 02:44:09 <galexande> strider, a fluke of release dates.  the iphone reminds us all of what we hate in a mobile platform
Jul 11 02:44:11 <riot> hmhmm.. i'm already developing a jabber client. I wonder, how hard it is to implement a good touch-screen interface.
Jul 11 02:44:19 <galexande> riot, very :)
Jul 11 02:44:20 <ajmitch> obviously the iphone is a better choice right now for consumers :)
Jul 11 02:44:32 <galexande> but it's more a design problem than a programming one
Jul 11 02:44:34 <NeoStrider> not always, ajmitch
Jul 11 02:44:40 <galexande> this consumer wants a canvas more than a phone ;)
Jul 11 02:44:41 <riot> galexande: yeah, for typing messages on such an inputdevice.. uh oh.
Jul 11 02:44:59 <galexande> riot, i'm not sure the status, but there's going to be a basic text input device, like a pop-up keyboard or so on
Jul 11 02:45:08 <NeoStrider> galexandre, sure...but , if you like the jail, welcome to iPhone
Jul 11 02:45:14 <galexande> i suspect it will be able to use several, such as a pop-up keyboard, or a pop-up pie menue system, or xstroke drawable screen..
Jul 11 02:45:23 <riot> ah.. ok, failsafe, if you forgot your bt-keyboard.. oh, btw. what about these? do they work?
Jul 11 02:45:23 <NeoStrider> iPhone==iCuffs ;-)
Jul 11 02:45:32 <galexande> riot, they will
Jul 11 02:45:47 <riot> (first user-interface for my client is urwid - a textmode and http interface.
Jul 11 02:45:57 <SpeedEvil> Some police forces _do_ use white plastic cuffs.
Jul 11 02:46:05 <galexande> i think someone ought to do the "i'm an iphone/i'm a neo" youtube but it's hard to be perfectly snarky when you're advocating a canvas ;)
Jul 11 02:47:11 <SpeedEvil> To the tune of "I'm a red toothbrush...?"
Jul 11 02:47:31 <NeoStrider> brazillian police doesnt use cuffs at all
Jul 11 02:47:47 <NeoStrider> the use bullets on the damn bastards =-P
Jul 11 02:58:22 <BlackBsd> so how is sales going for the device?
Jul 11 02:58:40 <NeoStrider> (nice site)
Jul 11 02:58:46 <BlackBsd> probally pretty good..
Jul 11 02:59:19 <NeoStrider> let me tell you guys something
Jul 11 02:59:30 <galexande> black, there are at least 1000 RT tickets, so a good number of orders
Jul 11 02:59:31 <NeoStrider> there is something wrong with www.openmoko.org
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Wed Jul 11 02:59:57 2007