**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Wed Jul 11 02:59:57 2007 Jul 11 02:59:58 there is no easy, flashing neon lights saying "developers, download the SDK HERE!" Jul 11 02:59:58 RT?? Jul 11 03:00:27 RT is used to track orders and some other things, so some % of those 1000 tickets are orders Jul 11 03:00:31 probably most of them, but you never know Jul 11 03:00:43 Neo, i think the sdk is the subversion tree Jul 11 03:00:49 strider, http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/MokoMakefile Jul 11 03:01:01 so look on the openmoko.org for MokoMakefile Jul 11 03:01:04 :-) Jul 11 03:01:09 I tried that once Jul 11 03:01:25 the checkout halted halfway trought the process Jul 11 03:01:27 svn co /path/to/tree Jul 11 03:02:31 then building it is half the fun Jul 11 03:03:06 i heard it will all build on a standard linux pc?? Jul 11 03:03:23 assuming you have the right versions of build deps.. Jul 11 03:03:34 so they say :) Jul 11 03:03:49 * ajmitch has it checked out, but not built at the moment Jul 11 03:04:13 well, i wanted to try doing that and holding off till october for the other device... Jul 11 03:04:44 * ajmitch really doesn't feel like changing the /bin/sh symlink to use the mokomakefile Jul 11 03:04:59 ajmitch, it might work with dash now Jul 11 03:05:22 galexande: that's good Jul 11 03:05:38 dont the /bin/sh command link to bash anyways?? Jul 11 03:05:39 only way to know is to try Jul 11 03:05:48 BlackBsd: not necessarily Jul 11 03:06:07 not on ubuntu liveCD , as the wiki states Jul 11 03:06:09 and too many scripts assume that POSIX-compliant means bash-compliant Jul 11 03:06:17 on gentoo its bash Jul 11 03:06:22 on freebsd is sh Jul 11 03:06:23 NeoStrider: s/liveCD// Jul 11 03:06:43 but my ubuntu install seems to be using bash anyway Jul 11 03:06:45 ajmitch, right, and sh is not bash Jul 11 03:07:13 ajmitch: sorry, I cant undertand this notation you used Jul 11 03:07:16 NeoStrider: how recent? Jul 11 03:07:30 the only bummer part is #!/usr/local/bin/bash vs #!/bin/bash Jul 11 03:07:40 so i still use #!/bin/sh for my bash scripts :) Jul 11 03:07:44 7.04 Jul 11 03:07:53 now this is confusing: Jul 11 03:07:55 2 - Create your $OMDIR directory: Jul 11 03:07:56 mkdir /home/moko ; cd /home/moko Jul 11 03:08:23 this means creating a directory side-by-side your personal directory or inside it? Jul 11 03:08:29 my home is /home/daniel Jul 11 03:08:39 should it be /home/daniel/moko or /home/moko? Jul 11 03:08:39 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiktree Jul 11 03:08:46 erk Jul 11 03:08:55 Not Found Jul 11 03:08:55 The requested URL /wiktree was not found on this server. Jul 11 03:09:06 it can probally be whatever, just point the environment var to the right spot Jul 11 03:09:19 unless there is a need for the moko user Jul 11 03:09:25 i see Jul 11 03:09:49 you guys need more "idiot's guide to openmoko developement" Jul 11 03:10:08 I came from a Series60 world where everything was graphical and easy Jul 11 03:10:14 do you know gtk? Jul 11 03:10:23 Im currently wth Maemo, but getting spanked too Jul 11 03:10:25 no Jul 11 03:10:28 I use SDL with Maemo Jul 11 03:10:36 eww Jul 11 03:10:41 I hope I can use SDL on moko too, right? Jul 11 03:10:49 ????????????/ Jul 11 03:10:55 what wrong, daMaestro? Jul 11 03:11:03 im not sure, i heard so. i also heard qt apps would run.. Jul 11 03:11:14 sure, if you install SDL/qt Jul 11 03:11:26 now its my turn: Jul 11 03:11:27 qt? Jul 11 03:11:30 eww Jul 11 03:11:31 =-P Jul 11 03:11:40 I dont like qt visual style Jul 11 03:11:41 daMaestro: great way to fill up that microSD Jul 11 03:11:53 yeah, might as well right? Jul 11 03:11:53 i wanna know if this phone is going to have a leather cover case with something to cover/protect the face.. Jul 11 03:11:55 but qtopia is admirable as a plataform Jul 11 03:12:19 * BlackBsd wonders if krusell is going to make a case for this phone. Jul 11 03:12:43 BlackBsd, http://openmoko.com/products-neo-base-00-stdkit.html Jul 11 03:12:58 i've wondered if we get a tickless kernel Jul 11 03:13:03 or if there is work to make the kernel tickless Jul 11 03:13:17 tickless?? Jul 11 03:13:21 i'm not sure if arm can even run tickless Jul 11 03:13:23 as is the cpu tick? Jul 11 03:13:27 yes Jul 11 03:13:40 isnt that what everthiing is based on... Jul 11 03:13:52 i know the scheduler need the tick Jul 11 03:13:52 fedora 7 has a tickless kernel Jul 11 03:13:56 in terms of a regular interrupt that runs & wakes up various bits in the kernel Jul 11 03:14:10 c ya fellows! Jul 11 03:14:14 the concept was pioneered in the OLPC kernel (for fedora usage at least) Jul 11 03:14:27 cuts down on power usage a bit Jul 11 03:15:03 daMestro, that is just a pouch. i mean a case that i dont have to take on and off Jul 11 03:15:14 but the pouch is a nice idea.. Jul 11 03:15:22 it could be a bit hard with a touchscreen Jul 11 03:15:42 the touchscreen is porbally pressure sensitive. Jul 11 03:15:52 so it wont matter if something covers it Jul 11 03:16:05 a think piecs of see through plastic Jul 11 03:16:08 thin Jul 11 03:16:12 but you may not get pressure in a precise place, depending on the plastic Jul 11 03:16:23 good point. Jul 11 03:16:31 why case? Jul 11 03:16:40 so when i drop it.. Jul 11 03:16:52 what's the point? i mean... the casing on the neo is plastic, how is another layer going to affect that? Jul 11 03:16:55 i just like a leather case on all my phones. Jul 11 03:17:03 mm Jul 11 03:17:09 keeps the phone looking like new. Jul 11 03:17:15 I'm sure _someone_ will make a case Jul 11 03:17:26 i'm sure you could find some company that will make a pleather case for the neo Jul 11 03:17:53 there are companies selling leather cases for the Zaurus Jul 11 03:18:12 krusell is good for making cases for everything... Jul 11 03:18:14 who knows Jul 11 03:20:11 mmm pleather Jul 11 03:20:21 * daMaestro drools Jul 11 03:20:27 I would like to see a holster for the Neo Jul 11 03:20:55 Not too sure about the whole lanyard thing. Jul 11 03:21:05 Jason1, i had a t-mobile sales person showing off the blackberry pearl (trying to tell me i should get one) ... and it has a "sward" sound effect that you have to download (and thus pay for) Jul 11 03:21:06 lol.. the german distributor of fic is here in town... *bg* Jul 11 03:21:22 Jason1, so he was making it make noise when using it as a sword Jul 11 03:21:28 i should go there and grab a phone... hehehe Jul 11 03:21:46 Jason1, in the sense.. literally pressing the button (at least trying to) at the right time Jul 11 03:22:19 LOl Jul 11 03:22:47 so.. the first thing i am going to do when the gta02 comes out.. is write a shit prog. to take the accelerometer data and make a sword sound at the right time based on movement :-D Jul 11 03:22:56 and then go *stab* him with it Jul 11 03:23:07 * daMaestro actually knows the guy.. so i can go bug him anytime Jul 11 03:23:24 daMaestro: awesome Jul 11 03:23:35 make the screen go to a saver of a picture of a sword too. Jul 11 03:23:56 random tangent.. i imagined also getting a holster for it for when i go to stab him Jul 11 03:24:00 notserpe, +1 Jul 11 03:24:25 i guess it would be call a sheath? Jul 11 03:24:28 called* Jul 11 03:24:59 this was also a person that was telling me that t-mobile is going to enter the G3 market! Jul 11 03:24:59 lol Jul 11 03:25:11 i corrected him 5 times before giving up Jul 11 03:25:32 he also told me i would have to unlock the neo to be able to use it on tmobile's network Jul 11 03:25:40 heh Jul 11 03:25:45 unlock what? :) Jul 11 03:25:49 exactly. Jul 11 03:25:50 daMaestro: Tmobile only hires the best Jul 11 03:25:59 oh, it's amazing. Jul 11 03:26:07 crap, ubuntu gutsy has an uninstallable monotone, need to get that fixed Jul 11 03:26:15 i heard their mesh network anoucement.. Jul 11 03:26:18 i know regional managers that don't know what GPRS is Jul 11 03:26:21 sounds like good tech. Jul 11 03:26:28 mwahahah Jul 11 03:26:34 the didn't do shit to design it Jul 11 03:26:38 daMaestro: Do you work for them, or do you just hang out at the cell phone store alot? Jul 11 03:26:42 they bought it pre packaged from another company Jul 11 03:26:56 well the other company has a good idea Jul 11 03:27:01 no, they own a clothing company i've done work for Jul 11 03:27:05 isn't GPRS some thing with maps? :) Jul 11 03:27:17 ajmitch: doh! Jul 11 03:27:17 ajmitch, that is almost exactly what i got Jul 11 03:27:19 global positioning .... system Jul 11 03:27:27 ? Jul 11 03:27:32 BlackBsd: retard Jul 11 03:27:39 radar Jul 11 03:27:41 ? Jul 11 03:27:41 ajmitch, really. oh.. no our network doesn't support GPRS Jul 11 03:27:42 heh Jul 11 03:27:56 BlackBsd: nah, doesn't quite fit Jul 11 03:27:58 ajmitch, you need satellites for that Jul 11 03:28:02 lol Jul 11 03:28:13 reference3 Jul 11 03:28:19 daMaestro: did you cringe in pain? Jul 11 03:28:26 if they weren't buying me drinks... i my jaw would have hit the ground.. yes Jul 11 03:28:28 I get frustrated when nobody can tell the difference between tZone, tMobileWeb, and Total Internet Jul 11 03:28:28 global positioning reference syste. Jul 11 03:28:53 BlackBsd, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Packet_Radio_Service Jul 11 03:29:05 wow, i was way off Jul 11 03:29:13 :-P Jul 11 03:29:44 daMaestro: of course, the other carriers are no better Jul 11 03:29:59 Jason1: I have no idea of the difference, but my defence is living outside the US Jul 11 03:31:10 Jason1 <-- wishes he had his Neo already Jul 11 03:31:15 BlackBsd, the "mesh" network is a total rip off Jul 11 03:31:28 really? Jul 11 03:31:40 it's neat technology... but they are basically offloading their onnet traffic to another carrier at the CPE level Jul 11 03:31:51 it's like the ultimate hot potato routing Jul 11 03:31:54 i would think using tcp would help reduce airtime use Jul 11 03:31:59 exactly. Jul 11 03:32:28 maybe even give better performance.. Jul 11 03:32:29 the carrier is still making money when you pay your bill, however you are using a different transit path Jul 11 03:32:34 you are hurting my brain Jul 11 03:32:40 you are paying twice... that is the issue. Jul 11 03:32:52 i understand.. Jul 11 03:33:34 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hot-potato_routing Jul 11 03:33:41 see you tomorrow Jul 11 03:34:16 http://news.yahoo.com/s/usatoday/20070710/tc_usatoday/newrulescouldrockwirelessworld;_ylt=An5cgjylvXnoY0k6HpGF7dLMWM0F Jul 11 03:34:33 what is the 700Mhz band used for in europe and non-US countries? Jul 11 03:36:18 summatusmentis, afaik TV Jul 11 03:36:55 UHF/VHF? Jul 11 03:38:00 http://wireless.fcc.gov/auctions/data/bandplans/700lower.pdf Jul 11 03:38:08 if anyone cares... http://linux.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/07/10/2335217&from=rss Jul 11 03:38:37 a new scheduler is on the horizon Jul 11 03:38:49 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Stylus_mount]] [[Category:Neo1973_alternate_cases]] [[Ruggedized]] [[Alternate_Neo1973_case_designs]] [[Tamper-proof]] [[Group_Order]] [[Alternate_colours/materials]] Jul 11 03:41:48 daMaestro: hrm... so I assume that won't be the case anymore Jul 11 03:42:44 so, do we know if the first 1000 have sold yet? Jul 11 03:42:50 summatusmentis, 2009 Jul 11 03:43:07 summatusmentis, we (yea... sure) should have access to 700MHz Jul 11 03:43:50 well, according to this FCC guy... but that'll like change in 2008, w/ the administration(at least the person in that position will) Jul 11 03:43:57 * aloril wonders who he is talking about "It may take a while for OpenMoko to really get off, but we already seem to scare some of the big players" http://www.vanille-media.de/site/index.php/2007/07/11/neo-1973-phase-1-started/ Jul 11 03:44:26 summatusmentis, well a quick google shows that EU also uses ~700MHz for UHF/VHF (it looks like ~900Mhz is the ceiling on that) Jul 11 03:44:37 lol, some dudes car just got jacked up by a wecking ball. Jul 11 03:44:42 http://news.yahoo.com/photo/070710/480/b7338d3aa3e04c52863761ed5195dd96 Jul 11 03:44:51 daMaestro: I think the US cancelled UHF/VHF, right? Jul 11 03:44:56 and he was in the ride Jul 11 03:45:11 summatusmentis, not yet (afaik) Jul 11 03:45:22 summatusmentis, that is what the fcc auction is about Jul 11 03:45:47 hey ive got a video for everyone Jul 11 03:45:56 think everyone will get a kick out of this Jul 11 03:45:58 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qg1ckCkm8YI Jul 11 03:46:15 daMaestro: I see, hrm Jul 11 03:46:30 * aloril is calling it P2+ and might have too optimistic numbers: http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter#P2.2B_.28GTA02_with_fully_polished_software.29 Jul 11 03:46:35 daMaestro: hopefully it works in the consumers favor, as per that link suggests Jul 11 03:47:00 aloril: calling what P2+? Jul 11 03:47:13 the 'end user device' that may take 6 months or more? Jul 11 03:47:33 GTA02 with firmware that is "Mom and Dad" -ready Jul 11 03:47:38 summatusmentis, the band will still end up being regulated.. but it should allow for us (as consumers) to get more wireless solutions Jul 11 03:47:47 however, that doesn't mean we wont continue to be ripped off Jul 11 03:48:06 it just means they (carriers) will have more frequencies with better service options to sell us Jul 11 03:48:08 P2 is GTA02 (I would not call this massmarket device, more like mass market for advanced users) Jul 11 03:48:12 daMaestro: it means that, according to this article the bad itself will be open Jul 11 03:48:36 my understanding is no, the band is just for sale Jul 11 03:48:43 yes, costs will probably be high, but the 'owner' of this band will have to rip us off on pricing, not scams like the subsidized phones etc. Jul 11 03:48:44 it will still be regulated Jul 11 03:48:57 * summatusmentis hopes google buys the band Jul 11 03:49:22 daMaestro: FCC director is calling for an 'unlocked' band Jul 11 03:49:45 summatusmentis, and sells us all brain implants: "google; search the world. really." Jul 11 03:50:03 lol Jul 11 03:50:16 well.. maybe i should read about the current directory Jul 11 03:50:17 err Jul 11 03:50:20 director* Jul 11 03:50:30 2.4GHz is getting nasty Jul 11 03:50:41 lol, google's got all this dark fiber all over the country, maybe they turn this band into a wireless connection to the dark fiber... Jul 11 03:51:07 well.. no google doesn't have any dark fiber (that i know of) Jul 11 03:51:24 it's all lit Jul 11 03:51:40 what? since when? Jul 11 03:51:48 i'd love to read some of the google peering agreements Jul 11 03:51:59 summatusmentis, find me an article that says it's not Jul 11 03:52:28 I was under the impression that google had bought a bunch of dark fiber, and hadn't done anything with it Jul 11 03:52:39 buying the fiber is the expensive part.. lighting it is cheap (because you have the revenue to offset the overhead of lighting it) Jul 11 03:53:08 i would not expect google to buy dark fiber and not light it Jul 11 03:53:22 google has to do something to offset their peer load Jul 11 03:53:46 i can't imagine what kind of bits the google bots eat for meals (24 hours a day) Jul 11 03:53:52 daMaestro: how do you get revenue off lit fiber if there isn't demand for that kinda bandwidth? Jul 11 03:54:29 ferric, with google.. they eat large amounts of bandwidth.. they drive carrier revenue... if not industry revenue Jul 11 03:54:46 people need to be able to find things.. both the act of finding and the act of directing users eats bits Jul 11 03:54:57 hm. Jul 11 03:55:08 so they're using the fiber between their own dc's Jul 11 03:55:12 not selling bw Jul 11 03:55:13 google has got to have some serious peering agreements (aka... we get to eat all your bits.. and you get transit over our links) Jul 11 03:55:44 well.. it's nice to move data on-net between DCs Jul 11 03:55:54 but google doesn't make it's money indexing itself ;-) Jul 11 03:56:02 newest i can find is a year old, but you'd think we would've heard something Jul 11 03:56:18 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peering Jul 11 03:56:24 * summatusmentis goes to slep Jul 11 03:56:27 sleep* Jul 11 03:57:06 anyone running gentoo? Jul 11 03:57:17 what port is libecal? Jul 11 03:57:44 i think google put an ace up it's sleeve when building a network that could sustain a very high level peering arangement with all of the long haul carriers... and thus.. they basically will get global transit for next to nothing (well.. the amount of running all their on-net systems.. which is what google does anyways! :-D) Jul 11 03:57:55 * daMaestro gets back to on-topic discussions.... Jul 11 03:57:57 sorry. Jul 11 04:17:31 heh, "Linux-powered iPhone killer goes on sale" Jul 11 04:36:24 moin Jul 11 04:40:51 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZmMh7VSFhnM <--- linux iphone killer video Jul 11 04:57:45 hey guys, I get an error building blueprobe 0.18-r1 using the mokomakefile. how would I go about fixing that myself? Jul 11 04:58:25 can I just edit 'build/tmp/work/armv4t-linux/blueprobe-0.18-r1/blueprobe-0.18/Makefile' and rerun make openmoko-devel-image? Jul 11 05:00:31 blindcoder, i don't know. in my experience that sort of approach hasn't worked. Jul 11 05:00:47 mokomakefile or bitbake or something doesn't reward ignorance :) Jul 11 05:01:30 gnu_: there is rumor that GTA02 will have GPS with free drivers Jul 11 05:01:32 great :( Jul 11 05:01:42 blind, but you can still try it :) Jul 11 05:01:57 gnu_: and yeah, personally I agree about "making mountain of molehill" Jul 11 05:02:06 galexande: okay, I could edit the Makefile and it worked Jul 11 05:02:17 galexande: now I still stand at it complaining about missing 'de.mo' file Jul 11 05:02:26 po/de.mo that is Jul 11 05:03:03 gnu_: could just add those speed/height restrictions in free driver -> shipped product works according to regulations Jul 11 05:06:12 \o/ Jul 11 05:06:24 touch'ing all the missing .mo files made it finish :) Jul 11 05:06:39 no idea what that will lead to, but the build continues for now :) Jul 11 05:06:58 * blindcoder --> work, bbl Jul 11 05:07:01 blind, oo i'll ekep that one in mind :) Jul 11 05:36:41 gps is hard to deal with Jul 11 05:36:58 the best approach is probably the same as the approach for the gsm module, well documented serial interface Jul 11 05:37:08 well reasonably well Jul 11 05:38:01 an open source satellite tracker with the height and speed restriction in software Jul 11 05:38:05 where it's removable Jul 11 05:38:08 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[P1_Owners]] [[Neo1973]] [[Removal_of_free_space]] [[Image_talk:Icon-Style1.png]] [[General-purpose_buttons_%28side-mounted%29]] [[Category:Neo1973_alternate_cases]] [[Side-mounted_touch_strip_sensor]] [[Scroll-wheel]] [[Buying_Interest_List]] and other changes Jul 11 05:38:11 would make it classified as a munition... Jul 11 05:38:30 specifically missile guidance Jul 11 05:38:44 and that, is Bad(tm) Jul 11 05:38:47 anrp: I remember all that hullabaloo about encryption software export ;-) Jul 11 05:38:54 its never changed for gps Jul 11 05:38:56 and its unlikely to Jul 11 05:39:46 there was guy from EFF here some hours ago that thinks " SpeedEvil: The problem is that you're making amountain from a molehill. The ITAR bureaucrats really are focused on controlling things that are real weapons -- not consumer cellphones." Jul 11 05:40:06 it doesn't matter, if the restriction is removable it makes it a controlled military device in the US Jul 11 05:40:49 anrp: its already removable in current Neo1973 ;-) (just need to finish reverse engineering) Jul 11 05:41:02 well i wish whoever doing it the best of luck Jul 11 05:41:07 and that they don't live in the us... Jul 11 05:41:12 1) replacing floss driver with proper restrictions with unrestricted floss driver Jul 11 05:41:25 2) replacing blob with unrestricted floss driver Jul 11 05:41:32 fic is almost certainly not going to ship it Jul 11 05:41:39 * aloril doesn't see any difference between 1 and 2 Jul 11 05:42:11 if the restriction is removable by the end user (open source), it gets caught in regulations Jul 11 05:42:40 you can do it, it's not like it's that hard to figure out Jul 11 05:42:45 that's just how the law in the US is Jul 11 05:42:57 you didn't read what I said, both are just "cp few files to Neo1973" Jul 11 05:43:06 hm? Jul 11 05:43:29 well both are illegal Jul 11 05:43:36 1) because it has no restriction Jul 11 05:43:39 2) because it enables it Jul 11 05:43:41 cp unrestricted_floss_driver closed_gps_driver Jul 11 05:43:42 sound liek drm? Jul 11 05:44:02 cp unrestricted_floss_driver floss_gps_driber_observing_limits Jul 11 05:44:13 if its open source -> user modifiable -> removable restrictions Jul 11 05:44:15 same end game Jul 11 05:44:40 yes, there is *nothing* stopping you from copying over current binary blob! Jul 11 05:44:47 correct Jul 11 05:44:49 it is also illegal Jul 11 05:44:54 that's what im trying to say Jul 11 05:45:12 * CM does many illegal things every day, but no one is complaining :D Jul 11 05:45:21 fic would be liable if they shipped something like that Jul 11 05:45:22 so? if they ship with restricted floss it exactly same situation! Jul 11 05:45:30 it won't be floss... Jul 11 05:45:36 it's not now Jul 11 05:45:57 and if it gets reverse engineered (likely) then whever wants to can install it Jul 11 05:46:07 but that is illegal in the us Jul 11 05:46:19 not the re bit, the restrictions removal Jul 11 05:46:21 anrp: yeah, but I don't see difference between shipping closed *binary blob* and restricted floss *binary blob* Jul 11 05:46:38 define floss binary blob Jul 11 05:46:39 gpl? Jul 11 05:47:00 could be BSD ;-) Jul 11 05:47:08 mm that might be passable Jul 11 05:47:18 but only if the source is not distributed Jul 11 05:47:29 ...which makes it non floss Jul 11 05:47:43 no doubt free reverse engineered source will be distributed ;-) Jul 11 05:47:49 true Jul 11 05:47:57 i just hope whoever dealing with it doesn't live in the us Jul 11 05:48:27 pavelm is in poland I think Jul 11 05:49:14 * aloril thinks Elrond and ph5 both are outside US too Jul 11 05:49:39 hope their govts aren't in bed with the us Jul 11 05:49:41 like aus Jul 11 05:49:42 and uk D: Jul 11 05:49:43 both in Germany I think Jul 11 05:50:13 actually, i wonder if it's in itar or if its us-specific Jul 11 05:50:14 * CM nods Jul 11 05:50:14 hmm Jul 11 05:50:28 er, itar is us law Jul 11 05:50:34 * anrp looks higher Jul 11 05:53:32 CFR 22 121.1 Category XV (c) Jul 11 05:53:48 that's the itar specific one for gps Jul 11 05:55:06 christ there's a lot of laws Jul 11 05:55:13 anrp: it sounded like guy from EFF had worked on ITAR, ie involved with crypto lawsuit too Jul 11 05:55:38 restriction (2) is the big one Jul 11 05:55:39 (2) Designed for producing navigation results above 60,000 feet altitude and at 1,000 knots velocity or greater; Jul 11 05:55:50 that's the restriction that makes it non-controlled Jul 11 05:56:08 anyway, he can refer to good ITAR lawyers if FIC needs consultation Jul 11 05:56:10 "or producing" is the problem Jul 11 05:56:20 its really very simple, if it's removable it's controlled Jul 11 05:56:58 its not "Designed for producing" when it ships with binary blob with those restrictions Jul 11 05:57:08 correct Jul 11 05:57:45 binary blob (complied either from closed source or free source) Jul 11 05:58:03 shaky, but still good assuming a non-gpl-type free license Jul 11 05:58:42 anyway, we have to see what are FIC's plans for GTA02 GPS and also see what happens with reverse engineering ;-) Jul 11 05:58:56 gta02 gps is likely to be a fully integrated system like the gsm module Jul 11 05:59:04 with an internal gps processor outputting nmea strings Jul 11 05:59:05 could be Jul 11 05:59:08 that way there's no problem with this Jul 11 05:59:50 this is limiting the capabilities of what one can do with an open phone, sadly, since this kind of integration allows lower power consumption Jul 11 05:59:56 instead of having 3 processors talking with serial Jul 11 06:00:53 of course there are truly microscopic gps modules out there now , so its not as bad Jul 11 06:01:06 gsm is a bit harder Jul 11 06:02:12 CFR 22 121.1 Category XV (f) also presents a problem) Jul 11 06:02:13 * aloril wonders how long before software radios are practical Jul 11 06:02:28 since it restricts "technical data" w.r.t. the restrictions listed in category XV Jul 11 06:02:44 and that is about as open ended as you can get Jul 11 06:02:56 * aloril also wonders how long there will be great divide in efficiency between "done in hardware" and "done in software" Jul 11 06:03:23 software radios are possible Jul 11 06:03:29 practical ... probably not wideband Jul 11 06:03:34 but narrowband probably Jul 11 06:03:41 yes, but they require quite amount of power compared to hardware Jul 11 06:03:46 true Jul 11 06:04:05 * aloril was just wondering if that gap will lessen in some point in future Jul 11 06:04:20 http://www.u-blox.com/products/ubx-g5010.html < there's one micro fully integrated gps Jul 11 06:04:27 in 1cm x 1cm Jul 11 06:04:35 probably the same size as the solution in there now Jul 11 06:04:50 the gap will probably remain Jul 11 06:04:55 the overall scale will go down though Jul 11 06:07:39 if you're interested in playing around with a SDR GPS, you may want to consider buying http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/product_info.php?products_id=8238 Jul 11 06:07:54 its gps specific but reasonable cost Jul 11 06:09:03 anybody gotten this mail (or other recent mails) from community mailing list?: http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2007-July/006757.html Jul 11 06:09:44 i can't say.. not subscribed Jul 11 06:10:37 anrp: hehe, if that has no problem with ITAR, then why should Neo1973 have? Jul 11 06:11:40 if it worked in realtime, it would Jul 11 06:12:09 as it is it's just a sensor Jul 11 06:12:40 anrp: I've noticed the mailinglists being a bit... jumpy Jul 11 06:12:42 if you took that and mated it to a high power computer able to output a realtime fix with open source code, then you'd have issues Jul 11 06:12:46 I aloril I haven't gotten any mail yet. Jul 11 06:12:59 s/I // Jul 11 06:13:00 CM meant: aloril I haven't gotten any mail yet. Jul 11 06:13:15 anrp, did i miss some announcement about the gps? Jul 11 06:13:15 anrp: you mean you can't replace that "windows based capture program" with your own real time driver? Jul 11 06:13:25 you can Jul 11 06:13:32 if it's useful though it becomes controlled Jul 11 06:13:39 Shoragan: just a bunch of speculation Jul 11 06:13:40 CM: OK, I guess at some point we will get spammed from ML then ;-) Jul 11 06:14:03 anrp: yeah, but isn't that same stuff as Neo1973 with binary blobb ? ;-) Jul 11 06:14:16 now we're back at the user modifiable bit Jul 11 06:14:16 aloril: I've not received it, either. but yesterday I suddenly received a batch of around 20 mails all at once from a period of about 14 hours Jul 11 06:14:16 ~_~ Jul 11 06:14:17 :/ Jul 11 06:14:56 if you distributed a binary blob with the restrictions its just a normal gps Jul 11 06:15:11 if you enabled end user modification... Jul 11 06:15:22 yes and that is my point, no matter where source code for that blobb comes Jul 11 06:15:23 noone is saying this makes sense Jul 11 06:15:47 * Sup3rkiddo ordered one..just now...=), waiting for confirmation Jul 11 06:16:28 yay, mokomakefile still building ;) Jul 11 06:16:29 Sup3rkiddo: Will be interesting to see your number Jul 11 06:16:34 only one thing to fix manually so far ;) Jul 11 06:17:09 CM: actually i dont have a card....made someone else to order it...and number? Jul 11 06:17:16 Sup3rkiddo: got rt tracking mail "AutoReply: OpenMoko direct order" ? Jul 11 06:17:19 you get an email Jul 11 06:17:24 with a number Jul 11 06:17:26 eventually... Jul 11 06:17:36 Sup3rkiddo: I meant ordernumber Jul 11 06:17:39 aloril, yeah...but not me, my mentor Jul 11 06:18:06 ah, can you ask him/her for rt number? 1820 is first number btw.. Jul 11 06:18:18 (would tell something about number of orders) Jul 11 06:18:30 aloril, sure....hang on a second Jul 11 06:20:18 Jason1: I moved you to the top on the P1_Owners wiki page ;) Jul 11 06:20:26 First is first.. :D Jul 11 06:20:38 anyone get anything from the mailing lists lately? Jul 11 06:20:53 * Sup3rkiddo jumps in ecstasy Jul 11 06:20:58 notserpe: not since 09:20 yesterday Jul 11 06:21:25 soooo... not for the last 23 hours Jul 11 06:21:58 counter Jul 11 06:21:58 (last update 2007-07-10 13:43) http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter : Order https://direct.openmoko.com/ ; Shipping prob. 60% in a week, a day 05:37:56 (8.235±3.0 days) (1729;246) Jul 11 06:22:00 (-; Jul 11 06:22:51 paulproteus: in theory it could ship before lower limit of above range too Jul 11 06:23:05 aloril, I'm joking, for me, the counter has already been reached! Jul 11 06:23:07 * aloril is being a bit 'safe' in shipping estimate Jul 11 06:23:17 Meaning, like, we can all stop worrying it's vapor now. Jul 11 06:23:28 hehe Jul 11 06:23:40 * ajmitch will stpo worrying when he holds one in his grubby hands Jul 11 06:23:43 I also happen to have one because of rejon@CC, but even then, they're kicking ass and accepting credit cards. Jul 11 06:23:46 for me counter stops when I have installed first application on it ;-) Jul 11 06:24:03 How is the current 1973 with pre rotated video? Jul 11 06:24:18 Kain: Slow, there's videos of it on youtube Jul 11 06:24:20 * ajmitch wonders how many days/weeks until SMS is working once we have hardware Jul 11 06:24:28 prerotated simplifies processing on the s3c2410 Jul 11 06:24:31 it doesn't have hw rotation Jul 11 06:24:37 ..i think? Jul 11 06:24:38 * anrp checks Jul 11 06:24:52 No I am pretty sure it does not Jul 11 06:25:11 then it should provide a sizeable speedup Jul 11 06:25:30 yeah its just a framebuffer.. harder to get any simpler Jul 11 06:25:36 Kain: suitably encoded video at 320x240 should play OK Jul 11 06:25:52 aloril, is this what you were looking for rt.internal.openmoko.org #3054? Jul 11 06:25:53 (hardware can do that resolution full screeen) Jul 11 06:26:07 Aloril, well that settles it. Jul 11 06:26:21 hm? Jul 11 06:26:26 it doesn't have hw scaling either... Jul 11 06:26:29 Sup3rkiddo: yes, 1235 order (and spam and other) ticket numbers Jul 11 06:26:36 nice Jul 11 06:26:45 I was itching for a platform to get hacking on, it was between this, the greenphone, and the gp2x Jul 11 06:26:51 * ajmitch wonders how many phones in total are ordered Jul 11 06:26:55 greenphone is megabucks Jul 11 06:26:57 and .. it's green Jul 11 06:27:00 Yea Jul 11 06:27:09 so.. Neo1973's sold could be higher (more than one in some orders) or it could be lower (spam) Jul 11 06:27:11 aloril, so the 1000 initial devices are sold out..awesome Jul 11 06:27:12 Kain: go the software route as I do and wait for october :) Jul 11 06:27:25 Yea, in 2 days Jul 11 06:27:48 i do wish the v02 hardware was out sooner Jul 11 06:27:50 any more TT blog bitterness lately? Jul 11 06:27:54 since the 3d accel and mpeg accel would be very nice Jul 11 06:27:59 Sup3rkiddo: yeah, so don't be surprised if there is some additional delay (hopefully they have already pulled trigger for additional manufacturing run) Jul 11 06:28:07 aloril: well I know I'm in for part of a group order, I suspect there are a number of those to cut on shipping costs Jul 11 06:28:19 CM: could have been in 1 day if web shop had handled /. Jul 11 06:28:30 anrp: I wish I could get around 250 bucks shipping and import costs, nevermind the hardware :) Jul 11 06:28:37 aloril, yeah then 6 weeks from today, baby enters my household Jul 11 06:28:37 ;/ Jul 11 06:28:51 aloril: True. Good thing anyway, FIC should be pleased with OM Jul 11 06:28:56 you will have zero time Jul 11 06:28:57 hack fast D: Jul 11 06:29:24 anrp: no hw scaling, but LCD can reportedly be at 320x240 mode (no driver written yet I think) Jul 11 06:29:30 mm maybe Jul 11 06:29:39 there aren't any datasheets at all for the display Jul 11 06:29:46 or display controller Jul 11 06:29:53 blindcoder, yea no wifi on this version makes having a physical device not super benificial, so maybe your method is the sane one. Jul 11 06:29:54 well display-internal controller Jul 11 06:30:19 ... of course its the same for the smedia chip, but at least that one has some features Jul 11 06:30:48 CM: they are, see http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2007-July/006690.html Jul 11 06:30:50 more than "here's a block of memory. here's some registers that setup the display. enjoy" Jul 11 06:31:22 Sup3rkiddo: congrats Jul 11 06:31:28 :) Jul 11 06:31:52 aloril, thank you man... Jul 11 06:32:06 * Sup3rkiddo distributes guiness to all Jul 11 06:32:16 So has anyone snatched skype out of the n800 yet? Jul 11 06:33:13 * aloril wonders how many greenphones have been sold Jul 11 06:33:39 gtk+ currently compiling Jul 11 06:33:57 it's times like these that I wish I had a better number-crunching machine. Jul 11 06:34:21 blindcoder: What computer are you building on? Jul 11 06:34:33 CM: model name : AMD Athlon(tm) XP 2000+ Jul 11 06:34:36 CM: with 512 MB RAM Jul 11 06:35:03 blindcoder: Ok. As I said before, 7.5h on my 3000+ 64-bit with 1gb Jul 11 06:35:37 CM: yeah, roughly 20 hours now here :) Jul 11 06:35:54 CM: with a break waiting for uboot fix and a break tonight after blueprobe failed. Jul 11 06:36:01 so 151 orders in last 12h or 13 order/h Jul 11 06:36:59 CM: blueprobe was missing a bunch of .mo files which I just touch'ed and then the build continued 90 minutes ago Jul 11 06:37:04 1235/60 is about 21 order/h since opening Jul 11 06:37:29 blindcoder: I saw that. Weird.. I'll try an updated build now and see if it works Jul 11 06:38:04 200/day for week would be another 1000 orders Jul 11 06:38:29 i dunno if that's a sustainable rate.. would be neat if it was Jul 11 06:39:09 is the factory at FIC huge Jul 11 06:39:29 it would be 8 orders/h, 60% of last 12h rate Jul 11 06:39:39 oh they could definately build em fast enough Jul 11 06:39:43 i was talking about the buy rate Jul 11 06:39:44 Sup3rkiddo: they can reportedly produce 100k units/month Jul 11 06:39:50 aloril, shows you rock at math Jul 11 06:39:55 cool Jul 11 06:41:06 anrp: we will see, also there is 11 unit limit in orders at the moment ;-) Jul 11 06:41:24 how many people ordered the limit D: Jul 11 06:41:30 anrp: no idea ;-) Jul 11 06:41:45 i need ... 11 phones! no, really! Jul 11 06:41:53 i uh wear them down fast Jul 11 06:41:57 actually, I guess if you talk with Sean you can order more probably Jul 11 06:42:23 nah .. not yet Jul 11 06:42:34 okay, I need 11 units for me Jul 11 06:42:36 11 for my brother Jul 11 06:42:41 11 for both parents each Jul 11 06:43:01 and uh... wait, maybe I can find some more family :) Jul 11 06:43:15 11 for each of your 1 million best friends, p2p style Jul 11 06:43:17 yeah but can you have a beowulf of NEO phones Jul 11 06:43:22 anrp: yeah, might need to wait for a month before can order bunch of them for resale Jul 11 06:43:22 * linux_galor1 ducks Jul 11 06:43:41 at least it sounded that way from what one guy from Germany that wants to resale them said Jul 11 06:44:47 hah MPIAA try track me now with my prepaid NEO running bittorent Jul 11 06:44:56 Linux_Galore: hehe, that is way to import more of them "create beowulf cluster of neos" ;-) Jul 11 06:46:25 neocluster Jul 11 06:47:54 aloril: the first ever portable cluster, Imagine some pasty faced basement dweller with 12 phones on his belt lol Jul 11 06:48:21 hehe, though better idea to have connection to real cluster ;-) Jul 11 06:48:35 flashmob cluster, make a neocluster from every neo in range :D Jul 11 06:48:41 Linux_Galore: that joke was just to get around "personal import" stuff ;-) Jul 11 06:49:17 "no really, I'm not importing bunch of neos, I'm importing one beowulf cluster" Jul 11 06:49:29 personal one also, not for sale Jul 11 06:49:42 blindcoder: thats actually a good idea, have an app that shares cpu time between neo's Jul 11 06:50:35 play Q3 and flatten the battery in every neo within 1km Jul 11 06:50:50 hehehe Jul 11 06:51:03 that reminds me Jul 11 06:51:26 I guess there should be an app querying you for a root password/pin Jul 11 06:51:30 upon first powerup Jul 11 06:51:45 otherwise I'll just look for neos with open wifi and ssh into them as root Jul 11 06:51:48 --> mega-pwn Jul 11 06:52:18 blindcoder: should have a startup like the Nokia N800 thats goes through a set of questions Jul 11 06:52:49 including setting the default master password Jul 11 06:53:13 hmm always nick the startup program from the N800 heh Jul 11 06:53:21 yeah Jul 11 06:53:39 its all gtk Jul 11 06:53:45 mwahaha: http://www.willitblend.com/videos.aspx?type=unsafe&video=iphone Jul 11 06:53:51 iphone: 0 blender: 1 Jul 11 06:55:03 Ive decided to start a new scheduler post CFS, I call it Ludicrously Fair Scheduler! Jul 11 06:55:25 Is there any chance of using the wifi from a usb dongle? Jul 11 06:55:26 GTA02 (P2) will have WiFi (Atheros AR6K): http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ#Q:_What_is_the_rationale_behind_the_exclusion_of_WiFi.3F Jul 11 06:55:37 doc|home: Hehe Jul 11 06:56:16 he didn't take out the lithium battery? Jul 11 06:56:22 that's .. a bad idea Jul 11 06:56:47 Kain: yes, you need (battery) powered USB hub Jul 11 06:56:53 tehy put an iphone into the blender? Jul 11 06:57:11 Kain: Yes, with a powered usb hub Jul 11 06:57:16 Thanks Jul 11 06:57:44 hey BenC Jul 11 06:58:03 hey Jul 11 06:58:14 Sup3rkiddo: Feel like adding yourself? Highest known order number at least... ;) http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/P1_Owners Jul 11 06:59:02 Hopefully My name will be on that list by tomorrow Jul 11 06:59:20 I must admit the startup program on the N800 is very well done Jul 11 06:59:38 blindcoder: yep, turned it to dust Jul 11 07:00:02 uh look at the P1_Owners page, you can actually specify the colors of the phone? Jul 11 07:01:03 doc|home: How to get make your iPhone open like the openmoko, 1 stick phone in blender Jul 11 07:02:42 doc|home: ouch Jul 11 07:02:42 cninja: Yes, you can at least request a color Jul 11 07:03:02 Linux_Galore: "all warranties are void if ..." Jul 11 07:03:03 ;) Jul 11 07:03:19 CM: I see, the colors must be Black/Silver/Orange... emailing orders@openmoko.com... :) Jul 11 07:03:28 cninja: They forgot to put the option on the page, but you can also mail to order@openmoko.com with your ordernumber in the subject and ask for it Jul 11 07:04:06 splendid, will do so, can't wait to get our hands on our order of 2. Jul 11 07:04:08 cninja: Heh, exactly. If you use the ordernumer as the automatic mail said, your mail will be attatched to the same ticket and they'll know Jul 11 07:07:43 good morning Jul 11 07:15:02 hi Jul 11 07:15:52 does anyone have problems with openmoko mailling list ? I don't receive msg anymore Jul 11 07:16:24 nosys: yeah same here Jul 11 07:16:28 no mails in last 24 hours Jul 11 07:16:44 so I'm not alone ;-) Jul 11 07:17:00 is the guy at openmoko aware of this ? Jul 11 07:17:52 They've had mail issues before also Jul 11 07:18:24 roh: How's it going with the webservers and mailinglists? Jul 11 07:18:49 ok, so I can hope they will fix this, and don't worry about not receiving mail for my neo commands Jul 11 07:19:14 CM: what f$%$ing timezone are you in ? Jul 11 07:19:23 and do you ever slep Jul 11 07:19:27 morning Jul 11 07:19:38 ScaredyCat: GMT+1, and only about 5h/night Jul 11 07:20:29 ouch Jul 11 07:21:27 Longer on the weekends, thankfully :D Jul 11 07:22:10 CM: 6 hours on WE ? Jul 11 07:22:44 TRIsoft: I'd say everything from 4 to 12h. I'm flexible ;) Jul 11 07:22:57 CM: lol Jul 11 07:24:20 * CM has 11h to go until Dropkick Murphy's start playing :D Jul 11 07:30:25 I gotta a technical question Jul 11 07:30:25 it's been bothering me for weeks... Jul 11 07:30:25 I'm hoping someone can answer it Jul 11 07:30:53 shoot Jul 11 07:31:04 no need, the answer is 42 Jul 11 07:31:14 :) Jul 11 07:31:58 lol.. but I'm wondering how to include my own app in the image using bitbake? Jul 11 07:32:23 and by image I mean the image I use to run the QEMU emulator Jul 11 07:34:26 jeff__: This was mentioned before: http://bec-systems.com/web/content/view/59/9/ Jul 11 07:34:36 from what I understood, I'm suppose to write my own bb file, but don't I need to modify some other bb files that builds the image? Jul 11 07:35:20 thanks, I'll take look at that website Jul 11 07:36:11 jeff__: I haven't tried it myself yet, but it looks like a good start at least. :) Jul 11 07:36:35 yep looks like just what I need Jul 11 07:37:49 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[OpenMoko_under_QEMU_on_MacOSX]] [[IPhone]] [[P1_Owners]] [[Using_Subversion]] [[User:Cninja]] [[Group_Order]] Jul 11 07:38:17 awesome some changes to the wiki :) Jul 11 07:39:13 well, a simple example on how to create and add a new package would certainly be nice Jul 11 07:39:57 my thoughts exactly :) Jul 11 07:40:24 actually that's what I've been working on for past few weeks.. just trying different things and get a simple app running Jul 11 07:40:52 hopefully I can get some results to share Jul 11 07:41:59 btw, how do you set your country in IRC? :D Jul 11 07:50:52 * CM notices the sudden silence as LaF0rge enters the room.. Jul 11 07:51:12 oh. well done, now he knows we're here Jul 11 07:51:14 * doc|home sighs Jul 11 07:52:48 doc|home: :P :D Jul 11 07:53:28 :) Jul 11 07:58:01 oh, neo is in spiegel (a big german magazine) today: http://www.spiegel.de/netzwelt/mobil/0,1518,493595,00.html Jul 11 07:59:54 been on slashdot and heise too Jul 11 08:00:14 really? Jul 11 08:00:15 kewl! Jul 11 08:04:01 ecraven, heise and slashdot are for nerds. spiegel is different ;) Jul 11 08:04:12 mdt: Can you have three of the same letter next to each other in german words? "Missstände" Didn't know that.. Jul 11 08:04:27 that's new.... Jul 11 08:05:04 It's in the first paragraph after Kulturrevolution Jul 11 08:05:04 if you concat two words like bett (bed) and tuch (blanket) you got bettuch in the past, betttuch now Jul 11 08:05:05 it's only new for consonant groups between vowels Jul 11 08:05:15 Ah, ok. Jul 11 08:05:26 I only learned the old german in school Jul 11 08:05:32 missstände used to be mißstände Jul 11 08:05:35 CM, more than enough ;) Jul 11 08:05:55 bett + truhe always was betttruhe, iirc Jul 11 08:06:01 Ich verstehe ein bißchen, oder sagt man bisschen? Jul 11 08:06:37 i'd say bißchen, not sure about the correct writing nowadays Jul 11 08:06:48 it keeps changing.. reforms, reforms of reforms, reformed reforms.. Jul 11 08:07:10 it's bisschen, the ß is gone nowadays Jul 11 08:07:15 mostly, that is Jul 11 08:07:30 whatever, what comes out is that the spiegel is critizing the iphone as too closed ;) Jul 11 08:08:10 yeah, the spiegel is a 'linkes kampfblatt' these days anyways ;) Jul 11 08:08:27 Hehe Jul 11 08:08:57 I should read more german.. 10 years since I had it in school Jul 11 08:09:10 (i'd actually say "bisserl" ;) Jul 11 08:09:54 but they say, that the neo may be purchased with contract & subvention from a provider... didn't know that Jul 11 08:09:58 ecraven: a kumm, de boarische bleschl is fei eh ned guad fueas schreim, de is fueas sprecha gmacht woan Jul 11 08:10:08 mdt: Just read that too Jul 11 08:10:19 I haven't heard anything about that Jul 11 08:10:23 would be interesting to know which one... Jul 11 08:10:26 oba österreichisch komma jo nu fü schena schreim ois wia redn Jul 11 08:10:35 guass that's just guesswork at spiegels part Jul 11 08:10:57 ecraven: I've been in Wien, Salzburg and Bad Gastein.. Very nice country! :D Jul 11 08:11:11 it is ;-) nice cities, nice nature.. i like it a lot here Jul 11 08:11:45 The latest mail I saw from Sean said that they'll have resellers for the P2, that's all I remember Jul 11 08:11:51 I've just been driving through austria on my way to italy a few weeks ago Jul 11 08:12:03 But since the phone isn't locked, how are they supposed to sell it with a plan? Jul 11 08:12:44 can't they lock it? Jul 11 08:12:56 they don't need to Jul 11 08:13:03 you sign a contract for 2 years Jul 11 08:13:18 True.. Jul 11 08:13:21 you have to pay anyway however u use your mobile Jul 11 08:13:26 I don't know how the locking works anyway Jul 11 08:13:42 the phone does not accept sims from other providers Jul 11 08:13:57 it should be in the chip so it should be possible Jul 11 08:13:57 mdt: or any other sim, for that matter Jul 11 08:17:49 i don't think that they actualy locks any phones here in .cz (they used to before) Jul 11 08:18:45 would be fun to see unlockers flashing "unlocked" linux to neo :) Jul 11 08:18:52 for $20 Jul 11 08:19:27 the linux is not locked, the gsm chip is Jul 11 08:20:04 it's done in firmware, not in gsm chip Jul 11 08:20:15 isn't it possible to lock a phone to only one sim chip? Jul 11 08:20:47 it is Jul 11 08:21:17 if you change it, you've to enter security code to unlock phone Jul 11 08:21:50 mdt: I don't think there is a phone which have a carrier lock inside gsm chip Jul 11 08:22:37 ynezz, where else? but: not all phones have a sep. gsm chip Jul 11 08:22:50 system Jul 11 08:22:57 yay, another 'missing mo files' error Jul 11 08:23:19 mdt: in system (let it be symbian, wince...) Jul 11 08:23:39 ynezz, i'm not shure, i will check that ;) Jul 11 08:23:54 in some cases there is some special IC just for that Jul 11 08:35:15 can we estimate how long the battery lasts with always-on gprs? Jul 11 08:35:52 6 hours? Jul 11 08:36:13 ouch Jul 11 08:36:41 tuukkah, soon I can ;] Jul 11 08:36:50 oh, so i won't be able to remain connected to irc all the time Jul 11 08:37:05 depends on how much data you transfer, surely Jul 11 08:37:07 mjr, do you have experience from other platforms? Jul 11 08:37:35 tuukah probalzy more if bt is off and backlights Jul 11 08:37:40 not really had reason to try that with my n-gage Jul 11 08:38:05 but I thing yous either have bt enabled or display to be useful Jul 11 08:38:06 yeah and bt=off -> cpu can be in low-power mode Jul 11 08:38:11 i'm interested in gprs on *without* network activity as that can be kept to minimum Jul 11 08:38:16 woglinde, no you don't Jul 11 08:38:57 it's a bit of a shame that bt requires the cpu to be properly running Jul 11 08:39:02 mjr the only reason for always gprs on is push services Jul 11 08:39:12 but tradeoffs, tradeoffs Jul 11 08:39:19 but that can be handled in otherways Jul 11 08:39:52 I would like my always-on chat presence as well Jul 11 08:40:15 also at times location updates to the net Jul 11 08:40:26 but that can be not-quite-real-time Jul 11 08:41:28 how long would it take to reestablisch a gprs connection - seconds? i don't think only push-services require always on Jul 11 08:41:39 always-on chat can send updates only if someone pings you or you open the display Jul 11 08:42:03 mdt, yeah, a few seconds Jul 11 08:42:11 see Jul 11 08:42:16 no option Jul 11 08:42:23 aloril - Yes, ph5 and me are in Germany. pavelm is in Czech AFAIK. Jul 11 08:44:29 mdt, i don't know. i might be able to wait for the seconds Jul 11 08:44:48 in a irc chat? :D Jul 11 08:45:15 pavelm is Czech Jul 11 08:45:17 mdt, yes, *when* i haven't been chatting for a long time and the display is off Jul 11 08:45:35 <_alcik_> hi all... Jul 11 08:45:40 tukkah wahah use a bouncer Jul 11 08:45:42 and in standard idle mode (just waiting for incoming call) how does the battery last ? Jul 11 08:46:03 nosys cant say I have powermanegment problems Jul 11 08:46:05 or the hw Jul 11 08:46:31 ok, I will see when I receive mine... Jul 11 08:46:50 woglinde, of course i use, but i want notifications when someone pings me Jul 11 08:46:52 <_alcik_> have U seen last openmoko planet entry? http://planet.openmoko.org/ Jul 11 08:47:34 yeah, what's the use of a phone if you can't use irc/IM as an SMS replacement :] Jul 11 08:47:41 ouch Jul 11 08:48:39 poor stressed-out Harald Jul 11 08:48:46 _alcik_: wow. Jul 11 08:49:38 Huh. Jul 11 08:49:45 What's up with Harald there? Jul 11 08:50:10 I hope nothing thats let the project down Jul 11 08:50:11 well, at least I hope it's stress Jul 11 08:50:12 too much work, too much figthing with .tw/.cn people Jul 11 08:50:15 or let quit him Jul 11 08:50:34 and not Sean and cmpny deciding to put proprietary advertising modules in the kernel Jul 11 08:51:22 a) (I personally think, that people are more important than projects, but that's another thing) Jul 11 08:51:37 b) The project will go on, I'm quite sure. Jul 11 08:51:49 Elrond, hear, hear Jul 11 08:51:55 elrond as long as sean is there zeah Jul 11 08:51:58 people are replacable Jul 11 08:52:14 blindcoder "sure" Jul 11 08:52:34 blindcoder: I just rebuilt with the latest makefile updates, no problems Jul 11 08:52:47 woglinde - Exactly. And if I read Sean lately correctly, FIC has reorganized itself for better openmoko support. So I don't think, that they will return quickly. Jul 11 08:52:48 blindcoder thats whe we have consultans Jul 11 08:52:57 s/return/change 180 degree/ Jul 11 08:52:57 Elrond meant: woglinde - Exactly. And if I read Sean lately correctly, FIC has reorganized itself for better openmoko support. So I don't think, that they will change 180 degree quickly. Jul 11 08:53:03 why Jul 11 08:53:08 (script) planet: Harald "LaF0rge" Welte: Insanity http://gnumonks.org/~laforge/weblog/2007/07/11#20070711-insanity Jul 11 08:53:30 CM: quite strange. I did an update-makefile setup openmoko-image-devel and got the problem everytime. is there anything else I should have done? Jul 11 08:54:04 <_alcik_> I think this is the stress/fight regarding some ordering stuff... Jul 11 08:54:06 blindcoder: Haven't heard about that mo file issue before, so no clue Jul 11 08:54:10 woglinde: from my official card, I'm one of those consultants. I'm here at my current position for 3 years now. Jul 11 08:54:30 CM: okay, thanks. I'll see what happens later on Jul 11 08:54:43 nice blog post :p Jul 11 08:56:47 I really hope Harald gets a real break now. I'm amazed he lasted that long with the non-stop working Jul 11 08:57:26 <_alcik_> CM how long? Jul 11 08:57:42 4 weeks at least. Jul 11 08:57:51 blindcoder and you can easily be exchanged? Jul 11 08:57:55 I guess no Jul 11 08:58:01 Well, he's been on the project from start Jul 11 08:58:06 woglinde: sure, my contract is quittable within four weeks. Jul 11 08:58:22 woglinde: then they'll hire someone lese to do the job Jul 11 08:58:33 blindcoder: I've been almost 2 years on the same assignment, but there's no way in hell the can replace me.. :P Jul 11 08:58:45 <_alcik_> Elrond now I understand him better..... Jul 11 08:58:52 CM: why shouldn't they? Jul 11 08:59:05 _alcik_ - hmm? Jul 11 08:59:50 blindcoder: Because they would get too much trouble finding out how all the programs and things work. We're already understaffed, and there's zero time for documentation or any kind of redundancy Jul 11 09:00:16 blindcoder: They were nervous as hell when I was away 2 weeks for vacation. Things almost grinded to a halt. Jul 11 09:01:26 Ford sucks, they're refusing to spend any money at all at useful things, like people who do work. All they think of is SOX and Securtiy Reviews that hinders everyone! Jul 11 09:01:29 CM: that's why we work in three-person-teams. for every job, there's at least three people that know how to do it. Jul 11 09:01:35 <_alcik_> 4 weeks of non-stop working.... well, something like this turn your patience totaly off :-) Jul 11 09:01:35 Jul 11 09:02:08 _alcik_ - more like 10 months of non-stop working. Jul 11 09:02:36 _alcik_: Yes, exactly. Every day, including weekends, since last autumn Jul 11 09:05:25 <_alcik_> CM I have marathons like this in my life, but never longer than 2 maybe 3 months... and I was total wreck... Jul 11 09:05:59 <_alcik_> CM like Elrond said, people are most important... Jul 11 09:07:35 <_alcik_> anyway.... anyone received ordering confirmation? Jul 11 09:07:35 For sure Jul 11 09:07:52 Not yet. Not a sound, besides the automatic reply Jul 11 09:08:37 They're totally busy. Give them time. Jul 11 09:09:26 what does http://gnumonks.org/~laforge/weblog/2007/07/11/#20070711-insanity mean? Jul 11 09:09:37 <_alcik_> ELROND that is easy to say... :-) Im so close to hold neo in my hands and waiting so long... Jul 11 09:10:11 mhh that post is slightly disturbing Jul 11 09:10:24 morricone: I guess Burnout, outstressed and frustrated having to do everything but what he's supposed to work with Jul 11 09:10:31 morricone we can only guess Jul 11 09:10:33 * buz mumbles distasteful thing about hans reiser Jul 11 09:10:56 maybay its mean harald is frustaed that he didnt programm a long time Jul 11 09:11:15 because of managing other stuffs Jul 11 09:11:53 He complained a lot about that in a previous post http://gnumonks.org/~laforge/weblog/2007/06/28/#20070628-openmoko_update Jul 11 09:12:14 imho, laforge is anything but "just replaceable"... his participation and reputation are part of why I've such a keen interest in OM. Jul 11 09:12:25 maybe taiwanese are driving him crazy Jul 11 09:12:46 or chinese mainland Jul 11 09:13:12 i think i could understand, when i was in HK i wondered about it myself often enough Jul 11 09:13:54 <_alcik_> or both... :-) totaly diffrent attitude to different stuff... Jul 11 09:14:22 <_alcik_> than western people Jul 11 09:15:03 which often leads to the feeling that people around you somehow lack common sense Jul 11 09:15:17 (which is true even in a totally neutral way) Jul 11 09:15:41 <_alcik_> buz exactly... because they think sometimes totaly different Jul 11 09:16:10 then again, the same can happen in some countries generally subsumed to be western too Jul 11 09:17:26 <_alcik_> buz o yeah.... Jul 11 09:18:05 so communication must forced every time Jul 11 09:19:31 Anway, I need to go to work. Jul 11 09:19:39 <_alcik_> me too Jul 11 09:19:45 <_alcik_> by Jul 11 09:26:57 Insanity Jul 11 09:26:57 By Harald "LaF0rge" Welte Jul 11 09:26:57 If you want a status update on OpenMoko: I'm at a point where I won't go to the office again because I know the agression inside myself will turn into physically hurting someone there. Jul 11 09:27:14 anyone know what this is about? Jul 11 09:27:58 No idea, but it's somewhat worrying Jul 11 09:28:16 What are you talking about? Jul 11 09:28:27 whoa, crazy Jul 11 09:28:42 goodfoot: http://gnumonks.org/~laforge/weblog/2007/07/11#20070711-insanity Jul 11 09:29:25 I wonder how many people will share that post with us here today Jul 11 09:29:33 hrw all Jul 11 09:29:36 Probably most of them :) Jul 11 09:29:43 fear of not getting a moko Jul 11 09:29:47 aeh neo Jul 11 09:29:56 More fear of not having any decent software to run on it Jul 11 09:30:09 Does the current version of neo have wifi? Jul 11 09:30:17 goodfoot no Jul 11 09:30:17 no Jul 11 09:30:24 wifi? Jul 11 09:30:24 GTA02 (P2) will have WiFi (Atheros AR6K): http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ#Q:_What_is_the_rationale_behind_the_exclusion_of_WiFi.3F Jul 11 09:30:33 thanks Jul 11 09:36:28 anyone know if that wifi chipset can act as an accesspoint, or is it just a station? Jul 11 09:37:57 My guess is that it depends on the drivers, but I don't know Jul 11 09:38:02 jpcass becaus the driver is gpl guess Jul 11 09:38:48 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[User:CathodioN]] [[Talk:Main_Page]] [[Translation]] [[P1_Owners]] [[Ruggedized]] [[Gsmd/ru]] [[Media_Content/ru]] [[Press_Coverage]] [[Buying_Interest_List]] [[OpenMoko_under_QEMU_on_MacOSX]] Jul 11 09:38:55 the driver is but the chip itself has got a huge firmware that may restrict some things; in short, I dunno Jul 11 09:38:57 IIRC you need also firmware support for master mode Jul 11 09:39:04 Not sure though Jul 11 09:39:17 stefan_schmidt hm okay Jul 11 09:40:49 so it's not a given that you can turn it into a gprs-sharing wifi ap :] Jul 11 09:41:03 We will see Jul 11 09:41:09 that we will Jul 11 09:41:24 ive been using openwrt on my router for ages; it uses atheros chips (not sure which code) and uses madwifi driver to offer access and station... Jul 11 09:41:51 jpcass: you have older atheros chips Jul 11 09:41:52 totally different atheros Jul 11 09:42:10 just checked the router, its an atheros AR5213A chip... Jul 11 09:42:28 and madwifi, relying on binary kernel modules, wouldn't have been an option Jul 11 09:42:48 jipp Jul 11 09:44:37 (not that the laptop/base station wifi chips would be appropriate for a device like this in any case) Jul 11 09:44:41 I got past the uboot problem in the mokomakefile only to hit another one with freetype - anyone having the same? Jul 11 09:46:08 Hi, I tried to compile moko from sources. When I try to do as described in the Zephyr tutorial, I get lots of errors. Most of the graphics are missing etc. Jul 11 09:47:50 andylockran, i'll try to build it... Jul 11 09:48:00 mjr: thanks for the heads-up on the atheros chipset... Jul 11 09:48:49 Shoragan: it takes about 4 hours to get to where I'm currently at (and that's with a 24MBs connection) Jul 11 09:49:33 andy, i've built it yesterday and there shouldn't be that many changes Jul 11 09:50:14 Anyone got emacs working? Jul 11 09:50:32 lol Jul 11 09:50:38 we already have an os Jul 11 09:53:41 goodfoot: emacs - on a touch screen - are you psychotic? Jul 11 09:54:22 on SMALL touchscreen Jul 11 09:54:54 lol Jul 11 09:55:02 emacs with gesturee controll Jul 11 09:55:19 that would be nasty Jul 11 09:55:23 libstroke ;d Jul 11 09:56:07 coding and simluate lightsabre fight at the same time Jul 11 09:56:42 I would prefer have vim. Jul 11 09:57:05 does anyone know what's up with the newest planet.openmoko message? Jul 11 09:57:08 " If you want a status update on OpenMoko: I'm at a point where I won't go to the office again because I know the agression inside myself will turn into physically hurting someone there." Jul 11 09:57:23 someone should change tob1 Jul 11 09:57:29 tob1 you are number 6 Jul 11 09:57:34 ups topic Jul 11 09:57:36 that doesn't sound good. Jul 11 09:58:47 Perhaps they should have time to sort it out themselves without too much community fuzz. Jul 11 10:00:37 andylockran: Have you tried to just restart it? Jul 11 10:01:07 andylockran: My first build failed 3 times, but all I had to do was restart it manually Jul 11 10:01:20 lseems like a grossly immature thing to post.. if he has issues, deal with them internally... Jul 11 10:01:39 I got my build down to 308 minutes Jul 11 10:01:42 CM: ctrl-c and start again? Jul 11 10:02:03 andylockran: bitbake didn't fail and stop? Jul 11 10:02:13 more orange Jul 11 10:02:14 http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/NS2806053950.html Jul 11 10:02:21 don't think so Jul 11 10:02:30 if it didn't top... how do you know it's a problem ;) Jul 11 10:02:33 If it's just warnings, don't worry :) Jul 11 10:03:03 it stops Jul 11 10:03:04 There's plenty of warnings and "missing this and that" all over Jul 11 10:03:21 do_compile fails Jul 11 10:03:27 :-( Jul 11 10:03:29 Log? Jul 11 10:03:30 * ajmitch has only had one build failure so far Jul 11 10:03:33 with what error? Jul 11 10:03:45 * CM looks at pastebin.ca Jul 11 10:04:04 it's empty ;) Jul 11 10:04:09 :P Jul 11 10:04:13 how do I use pastebin? Jul 11 10:04:57 or shall I just post 7 lines in here? Jul 11 10:05:17 ~pastebin Jul 11 10:05:19 rumour has it, pastebin is a place to paste your stuff without flooding the channel - try http://pastebin.ca, or http://channels.debian.net/paste, or http://rafb.net/paste/, or http://pastebin.com is usually painfully too slow and unresponsive to use, use one of the other pastebin sites, or dpaste.com is a very nice pastebin as well Jul 11 10:05:26 but only one... Jul 11 10:05:27 andylockran: if you want to die then post here Jul 11 10:05:29 not all :) Jul 11 10:05:43 * ScaredyCat takes hrw's handbag Jul 11 10:05:43 hrw: Hehe Jul 11 10:06:02 ok, on pastebin.ca Jul 11 10:06:13 http://www.pastebin.ca/614066 Jul 11 10:06:43 hrw: I'm too young to die yet.. Jul 11 10:07:16 looks like path error Jul 11 10:07:20 somewhere Jul 11 10:07:41 morning Jul 11 10:10:37 hm is gtk the reason why moko uses such old freetype version Jul 11 10:11:08 hm oh in oe too Jul 11 10:11:39 andy, it compiles ok for me Jul 11 10:12:03 can I compile it individually.. Jul 11 10:12:23 bitbake freetype Jul 11 10:13:16 hmm... I don't appear to have a bitbake binary.. Jul 11 10:13:53 andylockran: http://www.openembedded.org/wiki/PossibleFailures Jul 11 10:15:35 ta Jul 11 10:20:43 How do I implement this patch for mokomakefile?: http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=444 Jul 11 10:21:41 I'd also be interested in this Jul 11 10:22:13 Um, anyone running a fairly recent kernel would be. Jul 11 10:23:16 hm, ok :) I just tried to build openmoko for the very first time, to have a look at the current status... Jul 11 10:23:18 ewan98 are you willing to understand openembedded? Jul 11 10:23:28 donwload the patch Jul 11 10:23:43 put in oedir/packages/perl/files Jul 11 10:23:52 Done that, and I need to put it somewhere in the tree, thanks. Jul 11 10:23:58 edit packages/perl/perl-bla.bb Jul 11 10:24:06 to use the patch Jul 11 10:24:14 that is selfexplained Jul 11 10:24:27 Yeah, makes sense (same as a gentoo ebuild). Jul 11 10:24:46 beware that you have problems when the oe tree is merged Jul 11 10:25:35 so I need to put it in oe/ or openembedded/ ? Jul 11 10:25:41 install kdiff for 3 way merge if oe changes go to the moko branch Jul 11 10:26:05 dontknow how your oedir is named Jul 11 10:26:13 didntlook at mokomakefile Jul 11 10:26:26 openembeded/ Jul 11 10:26:34 openembedded/ Jul 11 10:26:37 yeah than packages/perl Jul 11 10:38:14 there has been worries about burnout for a while: I think laforge should get vacation and they should hire somebody to do admin/etc.. non GTA* driver stuff he has been doing Jul 11 10:38:32 aloril yes Jul 11 10:40:34 yay, another build failure Jul 11 10:41:12 hehe Jul 11 10:41:24 I got some unique failures here, too :-) Jul 11 10:42:39 can anyone point me to openmoko banner buttons..etc..i would love to have em in my blog Jul 11 10:45:29 * aloril thinks laforge should have gotten some supporting words when he was here 2.5h ago Jul 11 10:47:12 ewanm89_laptop: You can circumvent it by a symlink to /usr/src/linux/include/asm/page.h Jul 11 10:47:51 * CM admits it's the ugly solution Jul 11 10:48:56 * aloril had just gone 'offline' when laforge entered Jul 11 10:49:36 mickeyl: laforge especially and you and all in core team have done incredible amount of stuff Jul 11 10:51:20 mickeyl: what about finding some really good admin to do various admin/etc.. non GTA* driver stuff LaF0rge has been doing? Jul 11 10:51:31 and vacation too Jul 11 10:52:32 nod thanks. laforge is in a critical situation. the best is to leave him alone when for a while. I have been working with him now for quite a while and the best thing is to allow him to focus on one task which then he is going to do 110% professional. This project has overmaxed him since all his skills were sucked by OM.... Jul 11 10:53:24 mickeyl: right, I have been worried about burn-out for a while Jul 11 10:54:51 * aloril guesses that peace for doing GTA02 driver stuff could be same as vacation for him .. Jul 11 10:55:12 aloril: Yes, many have said it here too. ("Don't burn out" I mean) Jul 11 10:55:57 its important project and he wants it to succeed, but .. there is only so much one person can do Jul 11 10:56:41 NOTE: package openmoko-devel-image-1.0-r0: task do_rootfs: started Jul 11 10:56:44 is that good? Jul 11 10:56:44 sure, might need more than 10 persons to do same job, but .. if you burn out that 10persons_in_one_body then you lose quite a lot Jul 11 10:56:49 * blindcoder is a bit wobbly right now Jul 11 10:56:51 yes Jul 11 10:56:57 blindcoder: you've got further than I have Jul 11 10:57:06 ajmitch: I ran into three problems on the way there Jul 11 10:57:13 ajmitch: a) uboot (was fixed yesterday) Jul 11 10:57:26 ajmitch: b+c) missing xx.mo files Jul 11 10:57:28 * ajmitch is running into a nicely reproducible coreutils issue, already hit uboot Jul 11 10:57:38 uhh, coreutils Jul 11 10:57:41 gotta love those Jul 11 10:57:52 running their freshly compiled programs immediately after compiling Jul 11 10:58:01 great for cross-compiling errors and glibc incompatibilities Jul 11 10:58:07 yeah, conflicting type declaration with headers in /usr/include, pretty special Jul 11 10:58:17 * blindcoder wants to stragle some GNU coreutils developers, anyway Jul 11 10:58:25 hihi Jul 11 10:58:28 2007-02-14 02:49:06 sorry guys, I'm almost completely burned out. Haven't found time for the hairdresser, tax declarations, gpl enforcement, social life or anything. So please don't ask me to do anything but the bare mimimal absoulte neccessarry. Jul 11 10:58:41 ah, yeah, and I also had a problem with a missing #define CHAR_BIT somewhere Jul 11 10:58:47 incredible that he has lasted this long Jul 11 10:58:52 * ajmitch guesses that using glibc 2.6 on this host build system isn't always going to work :) Jul 11 10:58:55 aloril oh thanks for the backlog Jul 11 10:59:15 ajmitch: I'm running on 2.3.6 Jul 11 11:00:04 I should check if uclibc works with gtk Jul 11 11:00:08 and x Jul 11 11:00:17 NOTE: build 200707111102: completed Jul 11 11:00:19 YAY \o/ Jul 11 11:00:32 I see that it's a fairly old copy of coreutils, too Jul 11 11:00:51 woglinde: Patch didn't seem to work. Jul 11 11:01:03 ewan98 than do it bz hands Jul 11 11:01:11 the symlink Jul 11 11:01:21 now let's find out how to put that into qemu Jul 11 11:01:48 blincoder that should be easy now Jul 11 11:01:51 ewanm89_laptop: http://bugs.openembedded.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1988 Jul 11 11:01:52 Um, it removed the changes from the file (monotone). Jul 11 11:02:14 (I reported the bug in the wrong bugzilla back then) Jul 11 11:02:19 woglinde: yeah, if one knows how ;) Jul 11 11:02:41 blindcoder: If you use the makefile, it's truly easy :D Jul 11 11:02:54 CM: ah, yeah, just found it further down on the wikipage :) Jul 11 11:03:35 just wondered, because I already have a qemu-neo1973 installed in /opt/openmoko/ Jul 11 11:03:53 burnout worries: 2007-03-11 00:32:45 2007-03-29 00:22:57 * CM 2007-05-31 19:00:49 * aloril2 2007-06-13 16:06:06 * aloril 2007-07-11 12:10:28 Jul 11 11:04:04 aloril: Heh Jul 11 11:04:27 anyway, I guess '/.:ing' was last straw Jul 11 11:04:49 (he flied to Taiwan at Monday) Jul 11 11:04:54 Or something more personally internally that we don't know of Jul 11 11:05:06 or maybe he just got asked about 'openmoko status' by every f'ing blogger out there Jul 11 11:05:12 Internally at fic that is Jul 11 11:05:37 one mail each, plus one mail ten minutes later by every tenth because there was no reply yet Jul 11 11:05:41 * aloril means /.: caused additional load (and as you said more problems internally), not /.:ing itself Jul 11 11:07:52 is there a way to buy virtual beer? Jul 11 11:08:07 virtual paypal? Jul 11 11:08:26 CM: Wouldn't the same fix they are using in gentoo work? Jul 11 11:08:48 ewanm89_laptop: Can't see why it shouldn't.. :) Jul 11 11:09:04 They have a working patch in the ebuilds. Jul 11 11:09:29 okay, gotta use the one in /opt/openmoko/ manually or it won't start Jul 11 11:10:15 * blindcoder watches the boot progress \o/ Jul 11 11:10:33 yah, kudos to LaF0rge, and speedy but unhurried recovery Jul 11 11:10:40 * blindcoder offers to buy a beer to each dev and helper when they are in Berlin Jul 11 11:11:06 CM: I'll diff it against this patch: http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=444 Jul 11 11:11:30 blindcoder you know laforge lives in berlin Jul 11 11:11:42 woglinde: yeah Jul 11 11:12:10 woglinde: and according to evoc and unicorn- my 'stammkneipe' is very good :) Jul 11 11:12:23 arachnid, Nick have you started anything related to that gps app? let me know. Jul 11 11:12:24 I need lunch Jul 11 11:12:32 bye Jul 11 11:12:32 ewanm89_laptop: It just drops the include line Jul 11 11:12:37 woglinde: an guadn Jul 11 11:13:06 hi Jul 11 11:13:13 CM: So it's not actually needed, there seems to be a change in th kernel. Jul 11 11:14:07 ewanm89_laptop: You saw the comment from Jamie Lenehan in the oe bugzilla? Jul 11 11:14:13 "We could patch the include of asm/page.h out of perl but I'd be worried that Jul 11 11:14:15 maybe this really is needed for older glibc/kernel-headers?" Jul 11 11:14:50 Yeah, I'll see what the gentoo patch does. Jul 11 11:15:37 yay, I get a build failure of coreutils (6.0) completely separate from openmoko, so it's an even better problem Jul 11 11:15:53 was coreutils 6.0 ever released? Jul 11 11:16:14 not sure, I'm using the version from debian experimental Jul 11 11:16:32 you might want to go with 6.9 instead Jul 11 11:17:18 heh, screen calibration in qemu ;) that amuses me to no end Jul 11 11:17:45 right, 6.0 looks a bit old there Jul 11 11:18:49 * aloril thinks it should have been s/October/December/ in http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/announce/2007-June/000013.html Jul 11 11:18:59 embarrassingly old Jul 11 11:20:31 2007-07-11 11:33:07 <-- LaF0rge has quit ("**** ***") 2007-07-11 11:46:57 <_alcik_> have U seen last openmoko planet entry? http://planet.openmoko.org/ Jul 11 11:20:56 virtual paypal? Jul 11 11:21:10 lol? Jul 11 11:21:59 Hi, I use madplay to play mp3 music, and find it uses 58% of cpu. any patches to impove the performance? Jul 11 11:22:09 this may sound like a bit of a stupid question now, but... is the on-screen keyboard already implemented? Jul 11 11:22:16 My cpu freq is 200M HZ Jul 11 11:22:17 yes Jul 11 11:22:34 blindcoder: it is Jul 11 11:22:40 SpeedEvil: okay, so, how do I get it to show up in qemu? Jul 11 11:22:47 Richard: there were reports that mplayer uses 25% Jul 11 11:23:03 blindcoder: Click on the light gray box upper left Jul 11 11:23:33 CM: This is the gentoo bugreport on the issue: http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=168312 Jul 11 11:23:43 CM: ah! great, thanks :) Jul 11 11:23:45 SpeedEvil: does mplayer also use libmad? and what is the cpu freq under test? Jul 11 11:23:47 someone has received its openmoko ? Jul 11 11:23:48 Baptiste: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.) Jul 11 11:24:33 Richard: it was similar to the neo. And apparently the default mp3 codec. Jul 11 11:24:43 Baptiste: not yet. Jul 11 11:24:48 It's going to be some days. Jul 11 11:24:53 SpeedEvil, okay Jul 11 11:25:01 just wanted to have some feedbacks ;) Jul 11 11:25:12 okay, the first thing I need to do now is teach dvorak to that keyboard Jul 11 11:27:35 mickeyl: Which leffe do you prefer? Blonde or brune? Jul 11 11:27:46 mickeyl: Should I bring some for you from .fr? Jul 11 11:27:48 CM: They just take out that section too. Jul 11 11:27:55 blonde Jul 11 11:28:00 just like girls Jul 11 11:28:02 cough Jul 11 11:28:04 ewanm89_laptop: I know, that's what I said ;) Jul 11 11:28:04 stefan_schmidt: yes, please! :) Jul 11 11:28:11 mickeyl: How many? Jul 11 11:28:20 mickeyl: ground up and stored in the freezer? *cough* Jul 11 11:28:21 stefan_schmidt: one 6-pack will do Jul 11 11:28:23 the question "why is the openmoko so... not sexy/ugly" has already been discussed ? (osrry for troll but I have not found that on the wiki) Jul 11 11:28:25 ah no, that was coffee ;) Jul 11 11:28:25 * stefan_schmidt waits for the Alan Cox talk to start. Jul 11 11:28:29 blindcoder: hehe Jul 11 11:28:31 mickeyl: ok Jul 11 11:28:44 stefan_schmidt: cool, thanks! Jul 11 11:29:25 mickeyl, question, i saw that mokoninja video on youtube...what kinda keyboard was that..was dreaming about it all night Jul 11 11:29:27 mickeyl: pas de probleme Jul 11 11:29:46 alan cox talk? where? Jul 11 11:30:05 Fatal: http://www.rmll.info/article179.html?lang=en Jul 11 11:30:13 thank you Jul 11 11:30:43 mickeyl: ? Jul 11 11:30:47 Sup3rkiddo: hehe, that's the Microsoft Natural Keyboard 4000 Jul 11 11:30:51 that was a horrible keyboard Jul 11 11:30:58 mickeyl, you evil...grrrr Jul 11 11:31:05 * ScaredyCat wondered how mickeyl typed on it... Jul 11 11:31:12 ms makes fine hardware Jul 11 11:31:18 meh, live streaming page switched to french on me :P Jul 11 11:31:19 * CM agrees Jul 11 11:31:19 using their keyboards and mice since years Jul 11 11:31:35 ScaredyCat, i liked that...might help me to *ahem* attract some females Jul 11 11:31:44 mickeyl: As long as they stay for keyboards and mice... Jul 11 11:31:47 the natural kb is the mist unnatural thing Jul 11 11:32:16 sometimes I can type too... Jul 11 11:32:19 god, I love my MSNK4k Jul 11 11:32:28 * Sup3rkiddo loves the feel of mechanical keyboards...too costly in india though =( Jul 11 11:33:13 * ScaredyCat half expected mickeyl to be useing a 'Das Keyboard' Jul 11 11:33:47 :o lol : http://www.willitblend.com/videos.aspx?type=unsafe&video=iphone Jul 11 11:38:08 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Community_Events]] [[Community_Events/it]] [[Coding_Guidelines]] [[Coding_Guidelines/it]] [[Templates]] [[Templates/it]] [[IPhone/it]] [[Group_Order]] [[Talk:Neo1973]] Jul 11 11:41:38 morninig Jul 11 11:41:48 s/ig/g/ Jul 11 11:41:48 alphaone meant: morning Jul 11 11:42:16 Does anyone receive mails from openmoko? Jul 11 11:43:03 If I compare my inbox to the web archives there is a slight discrepancy... Jul 11 11:44:21 alphaone: nope (and many others have said this too a while ago) Jul 11 11:45:16 Okay, so I shouldn't bother subscribing again. I'll just wait Jul 11 11:49:16 * aloril remembers something like this happening some time ago and then those delayed mails coming Jul 11 11:50:45 maybe there's a connection between haralds blog entry and the ml-problems ;) Jul 11 11:51:14 slider_: more like he has had not time to fix it ... Jul 11 11:51:23 yeah, the lists have been a bit tempremental of the last few days Jul 11 11:51:30 http://www.willitblend.com/videos.aspx?type=unsafe&video=iphone Jul 11 11:51:46 Anyone in the EU still doing a group buy? Jul 11 11:52:21 Just managed to get money together for a neo - but not the full shipping too. Jul 11 11:52:44 And I've got all sorts of hardware plans, which are kind-of-stalled. Jul 11 11:57:57 hmm Jul 11 11:58:01 I fail at quilt :( Jul 11 11:58:12 I did quilt add blafasel.patch Jul 11 11:58:16 err Jul 11 11:58:20 quilt new blafasel.patch Jul 11 11:58:27 quilt add some/file Jul 11 11:58:30 vim some/file Jul 11 11:58:47 quilt refresh Jul 11 11:58:57 and the patch now just diffs against /dev/null Jul 11 11:59:13 why you dont di quilt edit? and set EDITOR var to vim Jul 11 11:59:44 woglinde: err.. because that's not in http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/MokoMakefile Jul 11 11:59:53 if the file is created it's normal Jul 11 12:00:06 quilt help Jul 11 12:00:45 nohar: the file exists Jul 11 12:00:56 nohar: --- some/file and +++ /dev/null Jul 11 12:01:00 blindcoder: Please update the wiki if you figure out how it should be Jul 11 12:01:04 CM: will do Jul 11 12:01:24 What is the weight of the Neo package? Jul 11 12:01:27 and size? Jul 11 12:01:35 (the shipped box - not the phone) Jul 11 12:01:44 SpeedEvil: where are you from? Jul 11 12:01:47 approx is OK if anyone knows Jul 11 12:01:49 UK Jul 11 12:02:05 hm, it makes no sense then to order with .cz guys :) Jul 11 12:02:30 bye again Jul 11 12:04:04 SpeedEvil: Just guessing, I'd say a bit over 1kg. (Trying to remember the weight of previously recieved packages..) Jul 11 12:04:17 I'm just trying to work out shipping options. Jul 11 12:04:38 Got a box with 1hd, 1 grapics card and a tv card yesterday, and that was 2.3kg Jul 11 12:05:15 CM: Remember that "real" weight doesn't interest much for airfreight. Always check the dimensional weight too. Jul 11 12:05:43 TRIsoft: True. I'm guessing they'll chose the smallest possible box Jul 11 12:06:17 CM: But beside from the hackers lunchbox, the volume weight is higher. Jul 11 12:06:26 ah Jul 11 12:06:28 got it Jul 11 12:06:40 CM: I used absolute paths, that confused quilt Jul 11 12:06:49 CM: now I used relative paths, and it works Jul 11 12:06:53 will add the wiki accordingly Jul 11 12:07:01 blindcoder: Ah, great :) Jul 11 12:08:58 * CM tries to remember if there's a "Run" command in the menu. Like a simple drop-down when you can type in "xclock" or whatever and it will run. Jul 11 12:09:09 OpenMoko menu that is Jul 11 12:09:26 CM: there's not, but there's a 'Terminal' Jul 11 12:09:36 I've used the terminal Jul 11 12:10:02 But sometimes you'd like something quicker to just "Run" Jul 11 12:10:29 yeah Jul 11 12:10:32 So, when I submit my form to direct.openmoko.com, I just get a blank page back. Jul 11 12:10:43 evanpro: There Jul 11 12:10:51 s beem seveal issues with the store Jul 11 12:10:57 OK Jul 11 12:10:58 now let's see if my gtk knowledge and understanding is sufficient... Jul 11 12:11:05 Is there another way to make an order? Jul 11 12:11:14 Usually it's the State name, that needs to be capitalized Jul 11 12:11:31 Actually, I'm in Canada, so it's a province Jul 11 12:11:31 Or use a two-letter name Jul 11 12:11:38 OK, let's see if that works Jul 11 12:11:48 evanpro: I ordered a couple of days ago and got a blank email reply with an RT number (~2200) - no update yet on whether my order got through ;-( Jul 11 12:12:03 As I understand it. Jul 11 12:12:10 Oh, sweet Jul 11 12:12:10 _nobody_ has further confirmations. Jul 11 12:12:14 Only that email Jul 11 12:12:19 Quebec -> QC worked Jul 11 12:12:27 evanpro: Good :) Jul 11 12:12:47 SpeedEvil: I haven't heard of anyone getting any mail either Jul 11 12:13:26 which one did you go for SpeedEvil? base or advanced? Jul 11 12:14:00 CM: after I've done 'quilt refresh' will a 'make clean-package-openmoko-messages' suffice or do I have to make known the existence of my patch anywhere? Jul 11 12:14:02 ScaredyCat: at the moment, I'm trying to arrange group buys or things so I can. Jul 11 12:14:29 ahh, but are you going for the advanced Jul 11 12:14:31 blindcoder: I'm not sure, but I think quilt should handle that Jul 11 12:14:32 weight wise Jul 11 12:14:44 ScaredyCat: prolly not. Jul 11 12:14:46 blindcoder: Try and see :) Jul 11 12:14:51 hi guys! where i can find some info about openmoko smartphone? :) Jul 11 12:14:52 slux: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.) Jul 11 12:14:58 slux On the wiki! Jul 11 12:15:04 (above) Jul 11 12:15:17 :o thanks! Jul 11 12:15:38 but what about the integration with my linux box? :) Jul 11 12:16:08 :) ok, im reading all FAQ! i love this! Jul 11 12:16:29 i'm italian and im waiting! Jul 11 12:22:25 slux: and you are shouting? ah those italians.. Jul 11 12:23:01 ;) Jul 11 12:23:07 :o tutti italiani? Jul 11 12:23:13 no Jul 11 12:23:24 * hrw -> afk Jul 11 12:24:47 it's not applying my patch :( Jul 11 12:26:41 nice! qemu can emulate this xD Jul 11 12:27:26 slux: Fetch the MokoMakefile and follow the instructions in the wiki Jul 11 12:27:39 slux: Takes a while to build it all though... Jul 11 12:27:48 :) it's fantastic! Jul 11 12:27:51 looong while Jul 11 12:34:24 Is anywhere on the wiki tips to speedup the startup of qemu> Jul 11 12:34:25 ? Jul 11 12:35:40 saaib: It's awfully slow.. I'd like a tip too :) Jul 11 12:36:18 CM: I linked page.h in the end. Jul 11 12:36:22 get a faster CPU? Jul 11 12:36:25 OM in MAKE and Hackzine: http://www.makezine.com/blog/archive/2007/07/openmoko_300_linuxpowered.html?CMP=OTC-0D6B48984890 Jul 11 12:37:16 Huge ammount of publicity :) Jul 11 12:37:48 I suppose kqemu wouldn't work as it's emulating a different arch? Jul 11 12:39:43 ewanm89_laptop: Everyone is having trouble with quilt. We need a good tutorial in the wiki, oe or om doesn't matter. Jul 11 12:40:06 * CM is a total quilt noob Jul 11 12:41:04 CM: I managed to get a .patch from quilt, but I'm not entirely sure if it has been applied. Jul 11 12:41:13 CM: I'm currently booting qemu to see if anything changed Jul 11 12:42:18 re Jul 11 12:42:29 ewanm89_laptop: right - kqemu will not help Jul 11 12:43:04 Yes a quilt tutorial is needed. Jul 11 12:43:32 in debian /usr/share/doc/quilt/quilt.html Jul 11 12:44:10 I only got a quilt.pdf here :-( Jul 11 12:44:25 same thing Jul 11 12:44:27 I'm currently only ssh'd into the machine I'm developing on Jul 11 12:48:13 nope, doesn't look like it's been applied Jul 11 12:48:20 :( Jul 11 12:49:59 pdftohtml ? Jul 11 12:50:07 or pdftotext ? Jul 11 12:50:33 pdfroff? Jul 11 12:50:37 pdf2ps? Jul 11 12:51:29 You know, comments like LaF0rge's make me wonder what is going on over at OpenMoko offices Jul 11 12:51:37 blitzkrieg Jul 11 12:51:42 Or a ninja attack by the competition. Jul 11 12:51:53 Yeah, pdf3ps will work better, as long as you have a cosole based ps viewer. Jul 11 12:51:53 wibbit: comments? Jul 11 12:52:07 http://gnumonks.org/~laforge/weblog/2007/07/11#20070711-insanity Jul 11 12:52:59 I would assume just stress Jul 11 12:53:24 summatusmentis: I would hope so. Jul 11 12:53:28 *grr* I hate programs not output stuff to stdout but to an arbitrary file of their choice Jul 11 12:53:34 summatusmentis: I am glad though, that the phone costs as much as it does Jul 11 12:54:05 summatusmentis: it significantly reduces the dummies that go and buy it and then complain it's "broke", you know like all the people who complain about "test" linux releases being broken :) Jul 11 12:54:17 openmoko: 03shoragan * r2376 10/trunk/oe/packages/gpsd/ (gpsd.inc gpsd_2.34.bb): Jul 11 12:54:17 openmoko: Solve gpsd build error by backporting fix from OE Jul 11 12:54:17 openmoko: (http://bugs.openembedded.org/show_bug.cgi?id=2531). Jul 11 12:54:17 openmoko: Keep oe-sync because this fix is already in OE. Jul 11 12:54:27 hmm, ps2ascii does nothing at all :( Jul 11 12:54:44 wibbit: I'm sure there will be plenty of that... in the scheme of phones it wasn't _that_ pricey Jul 11 12:54:44 xpdf? Jul 11 12:54:59 SpeedEvil: no X right now, no way to get the pdf from the computer either Jul 11 12:55:00 summatusmentis: Yah, this is true Jul 11 12:55:05 Shoragan: Welcome on board :) Jul 11 12:55:09 :) Jul 11 12:55:13 It's kinda being stuck between a rock and a hard place. Jul 11 12:55:19 pdftotext? Jul 11 12:55:36 On one hand, putting it out there for development, but not "tarnishing" it's name from a consumer perspective. Jul 11 12:55:47 blindcoder: Just download it to your local comp and open in acrobat or evince or whatever :) Jul 11 12:55:55 I wonder if the sales team, who process the orders could go back to the buying going "erm, you do realise...." Jul 11 12:56:29 blindcoder: scp? kermit? Jul 11 12:56:43 wibbit: I feel like the need to release these machines for dev work was potentially overdone Jul 11 12:56:47 scp host:/path/to/source/ host:/path/to/target/ Jul 11 12:57:01 Ignore host: if local :) Jul 11 12:57:04 summatusmentis: some developers will be spurred on by hardware. Jul 11 12:57:16 from what I understand(I'm not a dev), most of it can be done in the emulator Jul 11 12:57:17 (re. Laforge) i don't know whether i should recommend to write him some "keep up buddy, you're doing cool stuff" mail or whether this will put even more pressure on him shrug Jul 11 12:57:20 SpeedEvil: you think so? Jul 11 12:57:41 mickeyl: it's stress then? Jul 11 12:57:47 summatusmentis: and then there are those working on hardware, for which in some cases it's required. Jul 11 12:57:54 summatusmentis: I suppose if there is not that greate a developer community, and/or you can do almost as much development from within a virtual environment, then you'd be right Jul 11 12:58:00 SpeedEvil: well of course, yes Jul 11 12:58:07 * SpeedEvil sends grateful thought-waves to laforge. Jul 11 12:58:09 stress + not being able to control everything in a large company as FIC Jul 11 12:58:32 friction losses. the whole shipping process is incredibly complicated Jul 11 12:58:36 Though I'm a total stranger to this community, I would like to second SpeedEvil's sentiments Jul 11 12:58:48 Is it basically that you used to be a more or less isolated team, and now are not, though there may be more 'support Jul 11 12:58:49 '? Jul 11 12:59:23 mickeyl: I see, well, if you see him, and if it's opportune, I'm sure the entire comunity echoes the "keep up the good work" sentiments Jul 11 12:59:29 mickeyl: Be careful you too, and the rest of the OM guys. We know you're all under a lot of pressure. Jul 11 12:59:35 with all the side firefighting that distracted us from doing our work, it's that the more people are interested in the Neo the more depressed we are that we could deliver so few Jul 11 12:59:45 Hope Sean is keeping up too, he seems totally relentless Jul 11 12:59:58 few, as in software and hardware platform maturity Jul 11 13:00:06 well, Sean is Mr. optimism Jul 11 13:00:12 Harald is Mr. pessimism Jul 11 13:00:15 i'm mr. stable Jul 11 13:00:20 Hehe Jul 11 13:00:21 * LarstiQ hugs mickeyl Jul 11 13:00:21 so that's a fairly good match Jul 11 13:00:29 Having a public press release was probably a bad idea :) Jul 11 13:00:34 mickeyl: IMO - at this hardware launch personally I wasn't expecting much more than an X box, with some partially working software. Jul 11 13:00:47 Which it looks like it pretty much is. Jul 11 13:00:49 SpeedEvil: good. that's because you understand Jul 11 13:00:52 So I'm happy. Jul 11 13:00:55 CM, SpeedEvil: like I said, currently not possible Jul 11 13:00:58 SpeedEvil: i'm afraid you are a minority :) Jul 11 13:01:00 but I have the patches Jul 11 13:01:01 blindcoder: http://balloonboard.org/balloonwiki/QuiltHowto Jul 11 13:01:12 now I just need to have them applied during make openmoko-devel-image Jul 11 13:01:24 blindcoder: That guide is totally unrelated to om/oe, but it's a guide with steps at least :) Jul 11 13:01:27 Well, the hardware is supposed to be fully functional sans those few pieces it'll be missing, right? Jul 11 13:01:28 * LarstiQ is happy with AT&T commands and some battery life. Jul 11 13:01:48 mickeyl: I suspect so. I hope the majority of people buying phones don't have expectations of getting a working phone. Jul 11 13:02:09 i sincerely hope so Jul 11 13:02:16 that's why i put up the blog entry Jul 11 13:02:16 blindcoder: Ah.. Hmm.. Maybe something more is needed in bitbake then, if you have all the patches in. Jul 11 13:02:18 CM: yeah, I got that all done already Jul 11 13:02:27 SpeedEvil: One thing having done it this way, is that the OpenMoko lads (ladets?) are also able to flesh out the rest of the infrastructure, not just the actual phone. Though, I am some what surprised that more of this not actually being done from within FIC, it begs the question what help they are giving. Though I am sure there also a hell of a lot of the behind the scenes work that they can helpw ith. Jul 11 13:02:30 CM: exactly, that's what I'm currently searching for Jul 11 13:02:53 wibbit: they are providing open hardware. With actual kernel drivers. Jul 11 13:02:59 anyway, I'm going to grab something for lunch. thanks for your support, guys! Jul 11 13:03:01 wibbit: and a basic collection of APIs. Jul 11 13:03:05 blindcoder: Wait.. You might have to do a complete rebuild somehow, or did you try that? Jul 11 13:03:07 This is _important_ Jul 11 13:03:15 bb -c or something like that Jul 11 13:03:21 * sannes is expecting the neo1973 gta01 that he ordered to be hacker friendly :) Jul 11 13:03:36 Having to hack on hardware and reverse-engineer, wastes lots and lots of dev time. Jul 11 13:03:40 mickey|bbl: Enjoy a long and peaceful lunch! :D Jul 11 13:03:46 CM, afaik it's bitbake -c rebuild Jul 11 13:04:16 SpeedEvil: very true. Dev time that can be used to 'polish' on the end project Jul 11 13:04:17 summatusmentis: Sounds right, thanks Jul 11 13:04:28 fsck. my neo booted into simple shell Jul 11 13:05:11 SpeedEvil: Yah, I appreciate the significance of open hardware, and where not possible, open API's, one of the reason I am really looking forward to the phone, when a more consumer orientated phone is out. Jul 11 13:05:17 summatusmentis: and some overall vision of what it should look like. Which helps to avoid people going off at wild tangents. Jul 11 13:05:18 Anyone heard anything about sales numbers? as in: is it over or under FICs openmoko/neo1973s teams estimates for developer phones? Jul 11 13:05:34 sannes: reportedly they are all sold out for the first batch. Jul 11 13:05:46 sannes: So will need to kick off a new batch soon. Jul 11 13:06:01 I'd be curious to see the server load graph's for yesterday :) Jul 11 13:06:22 CM: I did make clean-package-openembedded-messages Jul 11 13:06:35 CM: and then make openmoko-devel-image Jul 11 13:06:40 CM: and it did rebuild -messages Jul 11 13:06:42 I have a couple of (nondevs) friends that I have been telling about all the cool stuff that is going on.. they just can't wait until october :) Jul 11 13:06:59 at least they're waiting till october :-) Jul 11 13:07:01 'October' - it may be a codename :) Jul 11 13:07:22 SpeedEvil: for march 2008 :P Jul 11 13:07:30 SpeedEvil: get coding, then it won't be :-D Jul 11 13:07:39 summatusmentis: I plan to. Jul 11 13:07:56 * summatusmentis can be the cheerleader, as he lacks coding experience Jul 11 13:08:02 summatusmentis: and making hardware add-ons, to get people able to code for GTA02 Jul 11 13:08:30 are the addons really necessary to code for it? Jul 11 13:08:47 No - but to code for accelerometers, it helps to have them in the phone. Jul 11 13:08:54 summatusmentis: well, gta01 is worth little to them without any software and wifi... I mean users, what are they any good for? :P Jul 11 13:09:15 ~users Jul 11 13:09:17 so this is what we get for sharing our unpaid volunteer work with you? complaints and accuses? well done, this clearly supports our motivation to continue working on open source projects. Jul 11 13:09:38 Hehe Jul 11 13:10:04 lol Jul 11 13:10:17 SpeedEvil: that makes sense Jul 11 13:10:29 summatusmentis: only way to get coding experience is to code you know :P Jul 11 13:10:39 sannes: I know, I know Jul 11 13:10:56 but I feel like in a project trying to move quickly, my newb questions would get in the way Jul 11 13:11:59 Uhm... I think the first person to blend his Neo might get more enemies than the iPhone blender... Jul 11 13:12:05 summatusmentis: if they are newb coding questions, they may or may not be better answered in the appropriate channel. Jul 11 13:12:08 blend? Jul 11 13:12:18 #c or whatever Jul 11 13:12:31 Viko: Well the iPhone guy, probably realised he just gone done :) and did it out of frustration Jul 11 13:12:33 SpeedEvil: *willitblend* Jul 11 13:12:44 Viko: ? Jul 11 13:12:54 SpeedEvil: http://www.willitblend.com/videos.aspx?type=unsafe&video=iphone Jul 11 13:12:55 http://www.willitblend.com/videos.aspx?type=unsafe&video=iphone Jul 11 13:13:07 SpeedEvil: You might like it :D Jul 11 13:13:09 Ah. Jul 11 13:13:17 Hardware destruction. Jul 11 13:13:40 I like the black smoke comming out of the blender afterwards... Jul 11 13:13:42 summatusmentis: most answers lies with the code, start small .. I mean, I havn't looked at any of the neo specific code at all and when I do it will always be hard in the beginning .. Jul 11 13:13:55 * CM suspects it's the evil DRM ghost Jul 11 13:13:59 I think "destruction" might be to weak a word... Jul 11 13:14:11 s/to/too Jul 11 13:14:32 SpeedEvil: well, they'd be newb OSS coding questions. I have minimal C/C++ coding experience, and I can read most code, and figure it out. It's the _writing_ of the code, and the whole GTK/dbus/etc. stuff that I have no experience in Jul 11 13:14:38 sannes: fair enough Jul 11 13:14:59 maybe we should get fic to put in a steel plate or something so it can't be put in a blender :P Jul 11 13:15:09 lol Jul 11 13:15:17 summatusmentis: You're not alone with that, and there's plenty of simple tutorials just to get started. :) Jul 11 13:15:26 :D Jul 11 13:16:06 CM: true... Jul 11 13:16:44 summatusmentis: I haven't done any c coding in gtk in the last 4 years, I'll start simple too :) Jul 11 13:17:05 my experience in #angstrom has been though, when I start looking at a problem(bug, etc.) someone fixes it before I even fully understand where the problem is occurring Jul 11 13:17:24 summatusmentis: We all need to learn something in some area, I haven't coded to much gtk for a while now either. Jul 11 13:18:08 yeah, but you all consider yourselves competent coders :-) Jul 11 13:18:32 I'm good at core aglorithms but not at all the gui stuff. Jul 11 13:18:46 summatusmentis: I think *not* considering yourself a competent coder is a great way to start elarning :) Jul 11 13:19:14 Viko: :-D Jul 11 13:21:05 Once I get my MacBook(hopefully soon), then I'll setup OE/OM Jul 11 13:21:21 and see what I can do, for now, I'll be a cheerleader Jul 11 13:23:08 So what text editor do people here prefer? Jul 11 13:23:32 copy con: Jul 11 13:23:43 ewanm89_laptop: in general? vim Jul 11 13:23:49 ewan, trying to start a religious war? Jul 11 13:23:57 lol Jul 11 13:24:11 ewanm89_laptop: vim, but I'm not a developer Jul 11 13:24:17 *grrrr Jul 11 13:24:24 how the fuck is this supposed to be done? Jul 11 13:24:26 ewanm89_laptop: actually, let me rephrase that, I like vim for general use Jul 11 13:25:07 inz: No, just asking, as I'm a vim guy but some freinds got me learning emacs. I still type vim out of instinct. Jul 11 13:25:36 And I prefer vim. Jul 11 13:25:52 ewan, those are no friends, fiends would be more the word Jul 11 13:25:59 friends don't let friends use emacs Jul 11 13:26:05 vi is by default (busybox version) Jul 11 13:26:07 i always wondered if people simply force themselves to use vim because its 'l33t' Jul 11 13:26:46 we got order id of 3054, what is the actual order id Jul 11 13:26:54 I use gvim because it's as easy to use as nano is, but with some shortcuts (dd,...) it's very cool and fast to use Jul 11 13:26:58 "I tried both at first, I couldn't work out how to quit emacs, so I use vim" Jul 11 13:27:30 but on terminals I still use nano, for basic editing. Jul 11 13:27:45 hrw: So it wouldn't be difficult to get full vim running? Jul 11 13:28:11 I do vim, but when coding complex file structure projects, i tend to fire up eclipse Jul 11 13:28:31 saaib: But that is a java editor? Jul 11 13:28:50 s/editor/IDE/ Jul 11 13:28:51 ewanm89_laptop meant: saaib: But that is a java IDE? Jul 11 13:28:55 ewanm89_laptop, eclipse can work as an IDE also with help of some plugins Jul 11 13:29:12 saaib: even with c? Jul 11 13:29:16 madwoota: I would have thought emacs was more "l33t" that vim. Jul 11 13:29:27 vim can be quite an IDE. Jul 11 13:29:28 ewanm89_laptop: ipkg install vim usually will be enough Jul 11 13:29:30 apt, java based, but can code on C, C++, Python, Perl, etc Jul 11 13:29:32 Exception in thread "main" java.lang.NoClassDefFoundError: based, but can code on C, C++, Python, Perl, etc Jul 11 13:29:34 saaib, when eclipse (finally) starts up, I've already finished the changes with vi Jul 11 13:29:40 hrw: Great :) Jul 11 13:30:37 inz, that's why i'm saying that only with complex projects. It realy helps to locate methods of libraries that you're not very familiar with Jul 11 13:30:57 thomasg_: Once you learned a bit more of it gvim will work as vim if you ignore the GUI. Jul 11 13:31:24 are there any plans to have pidgin on the openmoko ? since it's gtk it shouldnt be too hard ? Jul 11 13:31:43 is it possible to run openmoko on a palm? Jul 11 13:31:44 Terinjokes: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.) Jul 11 13:32:00 Terinjokes: no Jul 11 13:32:20 Terinjokes: Maybe in a year or two. Jul 11 13:32:29 SpeedEvil: i see on the front page of the wiki, it working (somewhat) on a Treo 680... Jul 11 13:32:51 SpeedEvil: in that case, should i just get a Neo1973? Jul 11 13:33:01 mickey|bbl: I know its basically just X box and still very happy that I got reasonably small ticket number ;-) Jul 11 13:33:01 Skwid_: Well finch would give you the core functionality even quicker. Jul 11 13:33:05 Terinjokes: It can basically be run on any platform with enough ROM and RAM, and CPU, that you have a linux kernel on. Jul 11 13:33:13 And enough hardware drivers. Jul 11 13:33:27 mickey|bbl: I can kind of relax now having reserved place, no matter how long actual shipping takes ;-) Jul 11 13:33:34 ewanm89_laptop: yeah but you'd have to rewrite the front end Jul 11 13:33:47 Terinjokes: Openmoko is _NOT_ end-user ready. The dialer app barely works. That's about it. Jul 11 13:34:01 Skwid_: As you said it wouldn't be to problematic. Jul 11 13:34:07 SpeedEvil: That sounds like it would run on the old Sharp Zauruses? Jul 11 13:34:16 Terinjokes: all effort is going into getting more working, rather than putting it onto more devies. Jul 11 13:34:25 Just not as a phone obviously Jul 11 13:34:37 ewanm89_laptop: is someone working on it ? Jul 11 13:34:38 wibbit: it's resource heavy - it's going to require 64M RAM at least prolly Jul 11 13:34:44 mickey|bbl: what about "you have done great work, please relax and do some fun stuff now for a while"? Jul 11 13:34:58 SpeedEvil: I was thinking more the C3xxx models Jul 11 13:35:14 Skwid_: not yet, basic phone functionality is top priority first. Jul 11 13:35:26 ewanm89_laptop: im sure :) Jul 11 13:35:27 wibbit: In principle - if it's got enhough ROM and RAM, CPU, and drivers, sure. In practice, ... Jul 11 13:35:42 ewanm89_laptop: thanks for the info, it would be awesome though ! Jul 11 13:35:44 aloril, hear hear Jul 11 13:35:46 SpeedEvil: is a totally different thing Jul 11 13:35:59 being able to do irc, aim, ym, msn, icq, gtalk, directly on the phone Jul 11 13:36:06 that alone would blast all the other phones :P Jul 11 13:36:58 gotta sleep something, c'ya all... Jul 11 13:37:01 Skwid_: I think a shrunk down version of pidgin might work out.... Jul 11 13:37:16 ewanm89_laptop, yes, I hop I will ignore the gui :) Jul 11 13:37:35 but in fact I like to use a mouse for marking and so on, not for klicking buttons in the gui Jul 11 13:38:11 summatusmentis: i wish i could help, but i think that would be a little too involved for me Jul 11 13:38:15 summatusmentis: I hope that empathy will be used rather or other telepathy based app Jul 11 13:38:28 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Getting_OpenMoko_working_on_host_with_Xephyr/it]] [[Running_OpenMoko_on_PC/it]] [[Main_Page/nl]] [[User:Tetraden]] [[Main_Page/es]] [[Neo1973_host_software/it]] [[Neo1973]] [[Gsmd/it]] [[Press_Coverage]] [[Steampunk]] [[Group_Order]] and other changes Jul 11 13:38:45 hrw: empathy? Jul 11 13:39:21 oh wait, telepathy.... that's a joke :-) Jul 11 13:42:14 summatusmentis: no - there are projects with that names Jul 11 13:42:16 summatusmentis: no..empathy is a im-client which uses the telepathy-framework :) Jul 11 13:42:31 lol, oh Jul 11 13:42:43 And psychopaty would probably be the multichat plugin. Jul 11 13:42:46 okay, I finally found out why the patches don't seem to work Jul 11 13:43:03 because bitbake extracts the downloaded tar.gz and builds in there Jul 11 13:43:17 instead of using the modified version at openmoko/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/applications/openmoko-messages Jul 11 13:44:39 I also found a thread on openmoko-devel with this exact problem from two days ago Jul 11 13:44:40 hrw: can I ask why you'd pick that over gaim(etc.)? Jul 11 13:44:42 with no reply Jul 11 13:44:45 s/gaim/pidgin Jul 11 13:44:54 s/gaim/pidgin/* Jul 11 13:45:02 seriously, how are (potential) developers supposed to do anything like this Jul 11 13:45:08 summatusmentis: smaller, easier to integrate in own projects Jul 11 13:45:09 sorry, I'm a bit pissed right now Jul 11 13:45:30 hrw: I see Jul 11 13:45:32 blindcoder: thats how bitbake works Jul 11 13:46:03 hrw: good and fine, but I want to have my changes to openmoko-messages applied Jul 11 13:46:09 hrw: how do I do that? Jul 11 13:46:32 I found only this so far to explain anything: http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/openmoko-devel/2007-July/001038.html Jul 11 13:46:42 but it doesn't actually explain it Jul 11 13:47:22 wifi is coming or already functional? i looked and did a little searching but is there a full feature list somewhere? Jul 11 13:47:23 GTA02 (P2) will have WiFi (Atheros AR6K): http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ#Q:_What_is_the_rationale_behind_the_exclusion_of_WiFi.3F Jul 11 13:47:33 blindcoder: one way: bitbake -cunpack openmoko-messages; do changes, bitbake -ccompile openmoko-messages Jul 11 13:47:36 ok, one answer Jul 11 13:48:27 hrw: will try Jul 11 13:48:28 hrw: do they support as many clients ? Jul 11 13:50:04 Skwid_: telepathy? no idea Jul 11 13:50:10 wifi Jul 11 13:50:10 Currently sold Neo1973 GTA01B_v04 (P1) doesn't have WiFi, GTA02 (P2) which is scheduled for October will have WiFi (Atheros AR6K): http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ#Q:_What_is_the_rationale_behind_the_exclusion_of_WiFi.3F Jul 11 13:51:04 is there a full feature list in an easily readable format? Jul 11 13:51:11 Skwid_: jabber,aim,msn and irc from what i know Jul 11 13:51:59 hah, looking good Jul 11 13:52:07 hrw: this actually works :-) Jul 11 13:52:11 hrw: so what is 'trunk/src/target/OM-2007/applications/openmoko-messages/' for? Jul 11 13:52:24 blindcoder: to see what is in code? Jul 11 13:52:42 blindcoder: mokomasterfile fetch whole trunk but use only trunk/oe/ dir Jul 11 13:52:53 hrw: I see Jul 11 13:53:13 so, just let me get this straight so I can write something in the wiki about it Jul 11 13:53:23 to change an existing app Jul 11 13:53:29 you would do the bitbake -c unpack Jul 11 13:53:33 edit stuff Jul 11 13:53:36 blindcoder: check OE wiki first Jul 11 13:54:14 run bitbake pkg until satisfied and then use whatever means the package devs want to submit patches back to openmoko? Jul 11 13:56:03 hi.. i'm surfing the openmoko website.... i am trying to find the page if exists, list of mobile handset provider who are in the openmoko project panel and which provider will adopt openmoko soon... nokia? motorola? etc Jul 11 13:56:03 michaelpo: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.) Jul 11 13:57:35 None yet. Jul 11 13:57:44 Just FIC is making hardware. Jul 11 13:58:58 aloril: it's not in the faq Jul 11 13:59:21 empty_mind: 3054? somebody else said same number (or was he talking about same order?), anyway, answer is this: 3054-1820+1 = 1235 th rt ticket number that has some relation to order numbers Jul 11 13:59:44 michaelpo: well.. in this case faq non answer is also answer: there is no publicly known answer ;-) Jul 11 14:00:48 ie.. nobody is aware of somebody else adopting OpenMoko (except of course free software hackers which have (partially) ported/compiled it for some devices Jul 11 14:02:34 i read newsletter like saying motorola or samsung using linux? this is not openmoko? Jul 11 14:03:09 no Jul 11 14:03:27 its openrola and opensung :) Jul 11 14:04:40 i see.. will definitely buy a openmoko phone if its around usd100 Jul 11 14:05:04 guess tehy'll never get down there Jul 11 14:05:16 since the current one is at 300 and the p2 will be 450 Jul 11 14:05:17 usd450 is not much cheaper than usd500 iphone Jul 11 14:05:48 what u mean current and pentium2? Jul 11 14:05:56 Phase1 Jul 11 14:05:58 phase 2 Jul 11 14:06:07 michaelpo, usd100? are you serious Jul 11 14:06:09 GTA02 Jul 11 14:06:28 jeddy3: yes serious Jul 11 14:06:36 * CM wants a core2 laptop for $100 too Jul 11 14:06:50 oh, and a nvidia 8800 for 50$ for me, please Jul 11 14:07:22 blindcoder: Good work struggling all the way with quilt and bitbake and not giving up :) Jul 11 14:07:46 CM: I'm almost at the point of succes Jul 11 14:07:51 CM: currently qemu is booting Jul 11 14:07:56 :) Jul 11 14:08:02 CM: although I find the whole build process _very_ confusing Jul 11 14:08:04 motorola and nokia have lots of usd100 phones... why openmoko cost so much? Jul 11 14:08:15 blindcoder: Me too Jul 11 14:08:19 I'd really love a good ROCK envirnment, but mostly because I know my way through that one Jul 11 14:08:21 michaelpo, because openmoko isn't only a simple phone? :) Jul 11 14:08:38 openmoko is not phone Jul 11 14:08:41 michaelpo, because they are subsidized by the operators Jul 11 14:08:45 it is software Jul 11 14:08:56 michaelpo: Because they manufacture millions of phones, and they don't have a 480x640 touchscreen, lots of ram and a decent processor Jul 11 14:09:24 michaelpo: also, in the US, carriers subsidize phone coest w/ a two year contract Jul 11 14:09:33 s/coest/cost/ Jul 11 14:09:34 summatusmentis meant: michaelpo: also, in the US, carriers subsidize phone cost w/ a two year contract Jul 11 14:09:39 CM: actually, my patch is already applied in the current build :) Jul 11 14:09:47 hmm... i've never bought phones more than usd100... i'm in malaysia... Jul 11 14:09:49 CM: I tried by inserting a #error "blafasel" into a .c file Jul 11 14:09:51 michaelpo, there are tons of phones for much less than $100 also Jul 11 14:10:06 michaelpo, whitout any features that is Jul 11 14:10:33 s/whitout/without Jul 11 14:10:38 hmm.. ok... i will read more on openmoko.org Jul 11 14:10:47 YES! Jul 11 14:10:51 and my change also works! Jul 11 14:10:54 * blindcoder does the happy dance Jul 11 14:11:00 hrw: thanks for the help earlier Jul 11 14:11:00 blindcoder: what you changed? Jul 11 14:11:09 hrw: the font color in the sms reader Jul 11 14:11:18 hrw: because white on light grey is total bs Jul 11 14:11:24 e.. I was thinking that something better Jul 11 14:11:37 colors should be only in theme anyway Jul 11 14:11:41 hrw: making the text readable is something good in my book Jul 11 14:12:23 also, there seems to be no functionality in the 'appearance' app yet Jul 11 14:12:39 maybe this page http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/IPhone can include comparison with featureless phone too... Jul 11 14:13:45 michaelpo: Maybe we should add a "Why does the Neo cost 300USD" page Jul 11 14:14:02 i want a neo phone :'( Jul 11 14:14:36 CM: yes please... and why some phone cost usd50 page... Jul 11 14:14:36 It's the cheapest phone I've bought in the last 10 years though (Since Nokia 3110) Jul 11 14:15:28 you should add a page with owner's comments on Neo Jul 11 14:15:40 michaelpo: The USD 50 phones either come with some expensive one or two year plan, or they're shite, like Nokia 1120 or hat it's called. Jul 11 14:15:51 s/had/what/ Jul 11 14:16:02 s/hat/what/ Jul 11 14:16:02 CM meant: michaelpo: The USD 50 phones either come with some expensive one or two year plan, or they're shite, like Nokia 1120 or what it's called. Jul 11 14:16:11 * CM sighs a little and gets back to work Jul 11 14:16:27 Darkfang, I'd say it's too early to review it as a phone. just a dev platform for now :) Jul 11 14:16:44 yeah but i mean even the look Jul 11 14:16:48 it looks good Jul 11 14:17:05 but sometimes when you have it in your hands it's not so great anymore Jul 11 14:17:28 i know many ppl buy expensive phones, and only use the voice and sms, mp3 functions only... nothing else.. Jul 11 14:18:02 Darkfang, it delivers what it promises in that regard. the screen is fantastic up close Jul 11 14:18:13 it's good Jul 11 14:18:21 but it should be better to write it somewhere Jul 11 14:18:25 ^^ Jul 11 14:18:25 michaelpo: it's likely your $50USD phones are pretty subsidized then Jul 11 14:18:37 anyway i'll be waiting for GTA02 to buy it Jul 11 14:18:51 i want 802.11 support Jul 11 14:18:57 my usd50 phone is 2110 Jul 11 14:18:57 * summatusmentis might be waiting longer than that, depending on the 'mass market' release Jul 11 14:19:03 nokia2110 Jul 11 14:19:25 in malaysia, cheap phones are unlocked, unsubsidised Jul 11 14:19:29 there are 35 EUR Nokia and 800 EUR Nokias too in Finland ;-) Jul 11 14:19:38 so there is quite a price scale Jul 11 14:19:44 fair enough Jul 11 14:19:45 CM: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/MokoMakefile#Developing_with_MokoMakefile Jul 11 14:19:59 aloril, unfortunately, both ends disappoint ;) Jul 11 14:20:11 ossman: hehe, thus Neo1973 Jul 11 14:20:13 my phone is something like 30 euros. It can't send MMS :p Jul 11 14:20:18 aloril, indeed Jul 11 14:20:44 anyway, I'm going home for the day Jul 11 14:20:45 bbl Jul 11 14:21:09 hrm... do most jobs let you spend your time working on something presumably unrelated? Jul 11 14:21:21 if so, I want a job like that :-) Jul 11 14:21:27 blindcoder: Nice! I'll replace root@pallas with ~ though ;) Jul 11 14:22:33 michaelpo: so they don't sell expensive Nokia's there? like E90 or N95? Jul 11 14:23:32 yes they do.... but ppl still just use voice and sms mostly..... Jul 11 14:24:02 oh.. and camera... Jul 11 14:25:14 michaelpo, i don't quite get what you are suggesting...you just need a cheap simple phone? Jul 11 14:26:35 michaelpo: how much do E90 and N95 cost there? Jul 11 14:26:55 i mean, most ppl dont use many features... just voice, sms, camera.... Jul 11 14:27:22 ok, those ppl shouln't get a more expensive smartphone then Jul 11 14:28:26 e90 in malaysia is about usd1000 Jul 11 14:29:06 michaelpo: How much for the iPhone? Jul 11 14:30:08 n95 in malaysia is about usd400 Jul 11 14:30:15 iphone is not selling yet in malaysia Jul 11 14:30:50 well, openmoko is 300$ + 100$ shipping + tax Jul 11 14:31:09 pygi: less shipping if you group buy of course. Jul 11 14:31:31 SpeedEvil, ofcourse =) Jul 11 14:31:56 I wonder what a minimal phone would be. Jul 11 14:31:58 SpeedEvil, tax would be 22% or so on the value Jul 11 14:32:35 Say 32M NAND, microSD slot, 64M RAM, 160*200 B+W display, no GPS. Jul 11 14:32:49 i dont mind paying laptop price if full laptop features are squeeze into phone size Jul 11 14:33:37 SpeedEvil: what is the value of having an open phone if it is too small to do anything but voice sms and camera ? Jul 11 14:33:38 usd500 is okay for laptop features in phone size... Jul 11 14:34:18 dcorking : code your own pong or pac man to play on it? :p Jul 11 14:34:20 yes - Neo1973 is a tiny tablet pc with a built-in phone Jul 11 14:35:15 dcorking: sync to PC, ... all other things included. Jul 11 14:35:22 anyone from fic on channel? Jul 11 14:35:26 Darkfang: sure - I have a J2ME phone in my pocket, on which *no* downloadable games I tried work! Jul 11 14:35:42 Shipping is $100? Jul 11 14:36:01 Can be Jul 11 14:36:02 n95 at $400, that is quite cheap if true Jul 11 14:36:07 In the US it's $14 or so Jul 11 14:36:24 Oh, okay. Jul 11 14:36:31 UPS is horribly expensive outside the US Jul 11 14:36:44 aloril: I think that price for N95 is subsidised by the network - you need to find retail price for a 'SIM free' N95 Jul 11 14:37:17 (and the developer price for Neo1973 is subsidized by FIC :) ) Jul 11 14:37:18 it shouldnt need to dock to a pc.... it should be a pc itself... can connect to an external hdd, or connect to an external, external lcd monitor.... Jul 11 14:38:04 michaelpo: there's a linux.. Add your own stuff and make it possible? :) Jul 11 14:38:26 There are no USB 1.1 ->VGA adaptors Jul 11 14:38:35 michaelpo: with (battery) powered USB it can connected to external hdd Jul 11 14:39:11 michaelpo: and you can display apps running on Neo1973 on nearby PC or display apps running on PC in Neo1973 Jul 11 14:39:38 s:powered USB:powered USB hub: Jul 11 14:39:55 USB to DVI ? Jul 11 14:40:03 i mean, having a laptop, that needs to sync to a desktop for installation of software is a bit silly.... Jul 11 14:42:02 michaelpo: you can install over GPRS too or use any USB device with powered USB hub Jul 11 14:43:25 how fast is gprs, can it be used to surf the net? at decent speeds? Jul 11 14:43:54 MrFeeti1: Only at indecent speeds.. :P Jul 11 14:44:51 so it is mainly for, updating information for programs(like weather) Jul 11 14:44:55 MrFeeti1: Seriously though, with OperaMini on my SE W610i it works ok. It's useable for text, but not much more Jul 11 14:45:07 ok Jul 11 14:45:15 IRC works fine Jul 11 14:45:24 ssh ok too Jul 11 14:45:24 and chat Jul 11 14:45:45 it's usable for web browsing in a pinch, but not a pleasure Jul 11 14:46:32 mornin' fellas Jul 11 14:47:24 anyone around? Jul 11 14:47:42 hi untwisted Jul 11 14:47:46 hi Jul 11 14:48:12 hi unarzna Jul 11 14:48:25 s/unarzna/untwisted/ Jul 11 14:48:26 summatusmentis meant: hi untwisted Jul 11 14:48:35 sorry unarzna Jul 11 14:48:42 so does openmoko have a working GUI? Jul 11 14:50:28 I believe it does Jul 11 14:50:42 it runs X and a GTK based gui I believe Jul 11 14:50:48 what phones are known to run openmoko?(other then the neo) Jul 11 14:50:59 so little time, haven't been able to run it and play with it myself :( Jul 11 14:51:01 it's been haxed to run on a treo, iirc Jul 11 14:51:15 yah, I'm considering trying it with my treo ;) Jul 11 14:52:05 i think the openmoko.org needs to start listing the openmoko capable phones Jul 11 14:52:31 MrFeeti1: only one known right now is the neo Jul 11 14:52:38 kind of the treo Jul 11 14:52:55 And it's in the first para of the wiki. Jul 11 14:53:04 Well - second Jul 11 14:54:01 MrFeeti1: as of GPRS - think dialup. Rather laggy dialup. Jul 11 14:54:13 MrFeeti1: i've also asked this question 20 mins ago Jul 11 14:59:13 <|mperitus> Is the version of the neo 1973 that's for sale actualy usable as a phon, or is it purely for developers at this point? Jul 11 14:59:21 just devs Jul 11 14:59:27 <|mperitus> K. THanks. Jul 11 14:59:29 october will be the release of the consumer version Jul 11 14:59:41 or rather, thats when its slated for Jul 11 15:00:26 <|mperitus> and it will work on any service that uses a gsm system with sim chips? Jul 11 15:01:00 unless the carrier starts blocking them Jul 11 15:01:17 <|mperitus> heaven forbid. Jul 11 15:01:21 I believe it can work with non-sim chip systems as well, can it not? Jul 11 15:01:22 MrFeeti1: One problem they're working on is the qvga resizing. Not many phones have 480x640 screens Jul 11 15:01:25 <|R> anyway, we have to kill the carriers ;) Jul 11 15:01:56 If they block it, I guarentee that hackers will work around it within days of them blocking Jul 11 15:02:43 as long as you pay your bill I'm sure that they don't really care what phone you are using Jul 11 15:02:46 the gsm portion of neo1973 is a closed system Jul 11 15:03:02 if a carrier bans a phone, it will be based on the gsm radio Jul 11 15:03:30 <|mperitus> Yeah, I just have to start looking for a good data plan on another carrier, sprint won't have anything liek openmoko for a long long time. Jul 11 15:03:53 no, they use brew phones Jul 11 15:04:11 well, for the most part Jul 11 15:04:59 <|mperitus> when I got my plan sprint had the latest and greatest, but in the past few years they have been the last to get anything new. I could qq all day about that. Jul 11 15:06:31 <|mperitus> I just don't get why it's so hard for the big companies to realize that the ther are consumers who want a nice high rez screen on their mobile devices. Jul 11 15:06:39 are carriers allowed to block phones Jul 11 15:06:48 in the US they are Jul 11 15:07:08 <|mperitus> hell sprint cancelled contracts cause peopel called to complain to much... they can do what ever they want in the US it seems. Jul 11 15:07:09 the AT&T contract reserves the right to block non AT&T approved devices from their network Jul 11 15:07:19 |mperitus: more that they think the market is too small to recouperate costs. Jul 11 15:07:43 |mperitus, if you go with a GSM carrier you can buy your own phones Jul 11 15:07:50 <|mperitus> I know. Jul 11 15:07:52 including OpenMoko Jul 11 15:07:52 the iphone will change that(it has a high res screen) Jul 11 15:08:00 or, if you like, the N95 Jul 11 15:08:05 now that's a fancy phone Jul 11 15:08:12 with a fancy pricetag Jul 11 15:08:18 $650 US Jul 11 15:08:20 <|mperitus> but back when I got my plan I didn't know the difference, and now I don't want to give up my realy nice deal. Jul 11 15:09:40 mrfeetio-away: 320x480 at 160 ppi for the iPhone vs 2.8" 480x640 at 285 ppi for the Neo1973... Jul 11 15:10:18 and my about 2 years old nokia has touchscreen with a much higher res then the iphone Jul 11 15:10:54 really? what model? Jul 11 15:11:32 untwisted: i don't understand you - what 'non-sim chip systems' do you have in mind? Jul 11 15:11:59 <|mperitus> I don't knwo much about gsm, how does the speed of data on something liek the neo compair to other phones? Jul 11 15:13:01 dcorking: CDMA Jul 11 15:13:03 dcorking: I'm not too up on cell technologies, I know verizon doesn't use the sim chip, or is it just built in? I assumed you would be able to use the moko with a carrier like verizon? Jul 11 15:13:54 no Jul 11 15:14:04 they're CDMA, probably. different tech to GSM. Jul 11 15:14:06 what's the diff btw ubuntumobile and openmoko? Jul 11 15:14:11 untwisted - flingpoo - if you can get open hardware like the Neo1973 for CDMA then I am sure you could run openmoko on it Jul 11 15:14:46 untwisted: Verizon is CDMA, so is Sprint, and US Cellular Jul 11 15:14:54 untwisted - flingpoo but since Neo1973 is the first open phone - then for now you will have to move to GSM - Jul 11 15:15:15 - until the concept is proven and a CDMA open phone clone appears Jul 11 15:15:23 I use AT&T anyway :) Jul 11 15:15:32 or I'd buy a prepaid SIM if I had to Jul 11 15:15:51 CDMA phones and networks normally lag GSM tech by several years as it is by far the minority platform Jul 11 15:15:59 <|mperitus> doesn't att have a realy nice unlimited data plan for iphones? anyone know if it's possible to get hat plan without the iphone? Jul 11 15:16:05 yea Jul 11 15:16:09 I have that plan with the treo Jul 11 15:16:18 its unlimited data & 200 text messages for $20 Jul 11 15:17:16 untwisted: it sounds like you are good to go - I hope you get a neo and enjoy hacking it! Jul 11 15:17:38 dcorking: me too! I've picked up extra work to afford one, however I'm not sure when I'll see the light of that payday Jul 11 15:17:58 quite a bummer actually :P Jul 11 15:18:18 <|mperitus> still not as good as my sprint plan, but add in the opetion of better phones and a sim card and its tempting. Jul 11 15:18:39 I have a buddy who worked for radio shack and got a NICE sprint plan Jul 11 15:18:55 he gets like $50 in download credit, unlimited data, and lots of minutes for like $50 a month Jul 11 15:19:04 untwisted: i am in kind of the same boat - my eyes are bigger than my waller Jul 11 15:19:09 s/waller/wallet Jul 11 15:19:11 hi Jul 11 15:19:13 Does anybody know the reason behind Laforge's latest blog post? Jul 11 15:19:16 * CM has a nice plan too, company paying all bills.. :P Jul 11 15:19:24 is there any proprietary software on these phones? Jul 11 15:19:29 <|mperitus> I have the ancient grandfathered unlimited data umlimited text for 10 a month. Jul 11 15:19:48 dcorking: Haha, I know how that is. Working 3 jobs right now so I can pay for all sorts of fun things, but with all of the work I have no time for the fun things :P Jul 11 15:20:24 Plouj: Only for the gsm modem, that you access via at commands, and a binary blob for the AGPS that's being re-engineered slowly Jul 11 15:20:45 s/re-/reverse / Jul 11 15:20:45 CM meant: Plouj: Only for the gsm modem, that you access via at commands, and a binary blob for the AGPS that's being reverse engineered slowly Jul 11 15:21:02 untwisted: why not wait for an old Neo1973 on ebay - when it goes commercial the real hackers may want rid of the old ones Jul 11 15:21:05 I'm glad you guys use regex to correct yourselves Jul 11 15:21:20 what does grandfathered mean? i read this alot regarding gpl3 and novell.... Jul 11 15:21:30 dcorking: my intentions are to buy the 1973, and the consumer release in october :P Jul 11 15:21:42 <|mperitus> well in my case it means you can't get the plan any more but they can't take it away from me. Jul 11 15:22:02 untwisted: I sense a hint of sarcasm there.. ;) Jul 11 15:22:12 cm: none at all actually :P Jul 11 15:22:24 CM: do those binary blobs need to be flashed into the NAND memory (by USB) or are they in unchangeable firmware ? I did not see mention of how the blobs are maintained in the wiki Jul 11 15:22:29 * CM is off to eat some before the Dropkick Murphys concert Jul 11 15:22:34 Money burns a hole in my pocket. Jul 11 15:22:39 The GSM blob is internal. Jul 11 15:22:41 CM, enjoy! <3 Flogging Molly Jul 11 15:22:42 it's got its own flash Jul 11 15:22:47 which you can't touch. Jul 11 15:22:54 The GPS blob is a binary app Jul 11 15:22:56 untwisted: Me too, I've seen them twice live :D Jul 11 15:23:08 CM: Never missed them in Pittsburgh since 1999 Jul 11 15:23:14 SpeedEvil: ta Jul 11 15:23:28 Well, they don't come often to Göteborg Sweden ;) Jul 11 15:23:33 CM: Met Dropkick once, the guys were dicks, but the music is good ;) I also <3 Street Dogs :P Jul 11 15:23:49 CM: Man... I wanna go to sweden. Jul 11 15:23:57 CM: but I'll let you go, eat :) enjoy! Jul 11 15:24:02 untwisted: Saw Streetdogs 2 months ago at a small club Jul 11 15:24:28 untwisted: well you could always sell your pc and any music players you have (in theory you won't have time for them - and the neo ought to be a decent mp3 player) :( Jul 11 15:24:29 We were maybe 200ppl, and they came down after the show to have some beers and chat a bit. Nice guys for sure Jul 11 15:25:01 CM: Thats AWESOME, I was at a show where I went out with the Tossers after the show for drinks. Jul 11 15:25:15 apt: why wasn't this AGPS stuff made as free software right away? Jul 11 15:25:16 :D Jul 11 15:25:29 CM: Actually, the drummer from FM passed out from food poisoning during a show, Dave King (the singer) invited me to go to the hospital with him since we had been having a conversation :P Jul 11 15:25:38 untwisted: you in the US or Canada? Jul 11 15:25:43 dcorking: US Jul 11 15:25:55 Plouj: NDAs from the manufactures of the AGPS chip didn't allow it Jul 11 15:26:07 dcorking: Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania Jul 11 15:26:37 untwisted: then for goodness sake keep some money around for deductibles/copays in case you get sick - not good to work 3 jobs and have no savings (but I am both old and oldfashioned) Jul 11 15:26:56 CM: Next on my shows list is warped tour, Bad Religion and Flogging Molly (and I may have backstage passes coming!) Jul 11 15:27:11 untwisted: Sweet :) Jul 11 15:27:38 * CM ignores the rain and runs from the office Jul 11 15:27:53 dcorking: Well I have a steady job, and I'm working 2 side projects really. Web design. One of them is actually taking off, and may allow me to quit the others ;) I have a rainy day fund, and I always put money in to my IRA first before anything else, so I should be OK. Jul 11 15:28:23 anybody got their order accepted? Jul 11 15:28:33 dcorking: My dad beat the idea of retirement money in to my head at an early age :P Jul 11 15:28:43 btw Pennsylvania is cool - I lived in Delaware a while but I am in Europe now (national health and welfare if I need it, but no steelers nicks or radio shack) Jul 11 15:29:31 untwisted: ok - I will stop being your dad again Jul 11 15:29:56 dcorking: Haha, a Stillers (Pittsburghese) fan eh? Whereabouts in Europe are ya? I took a trip to Europe 2 years ago, and I want nothing more to go back. Jul 11 15:30:10 er s/nicks/69ers/ Jul 11 15:30:21 dcorking: Haha, no worries, can never have too many people lookin out for ya ;) Jul 11 15:30:24 we are supposed to get two emails from openmoko, right? Jul 11 15:31:00 orzo: Not having ordered one, I can only say from what I've heard floating around that yes, you're supposed to get two, but that it can take as long as 24 hours, and that a lot of other people seem to be waiting. Jul 11 15:31:12 untwisted: no actually i am a radio shack fan - but I also miss OLN ... Jul 11 15:31:21 orzo: nobody's got 2 yet apparently. Jul 11 15:31:47 ... I bet if I had a Neo1973 I would be watching video podcasts from Bob Roll or George Hincapie or someone on it Jul 11 15:32:17 haha Jul 11 15:32:39 When the v2 comes out, I want to make a Wiimote out of it :P Jul 11 15:32:49 bluetooth + 2 accelerometers = wii control Jul 11 15:33:13 untwisted: Bath http://maps.google.com/maps?sourceid=Mozilla-search&q=BA1 Jul 11 15:38:48 OFF-TOPIC untwisted: you know what sucks about the UK - the Tour de France was here at the weekend but unlike the US (where you have VERSUS channel) we can't get live coverage of the race - not even on cable or satellite Jul 11 15:39:03 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Getting_Openmoko_working_on_host_with_Xoo/it]] [[P1_Owners]] [[Getting_OpenMoko_working_on_host_with_Xephyr/it]] [[Input_Method]] [[Talk:Wish_List_-_Hardware]] [[MokoMakefile]] [[Wish_List]] [[Press_Coverage/it]] [[Press_Coverage]] Jul 11 15:39:54 * blindcoder back Jul 11 15:40:21 woah, anyone have more details on the "Insanity" post at planet.openmoko.org? Jul 11 15:40:26 dcorking: huh? it's on two freetv channels here... Jul 11 15:41:20 dcorking: including the "first" programme, i.e. the one that's available really everywhere, no matter if terrestrial, satellite or cable Jul 11 15:41:40 don-o: la-forge sounds pissed Jul 11 15:41:47 did OLN become VERSUS? Jul 11 15:43:00 anyhow looks like oln is now versus and their website has lots of tour video Jul 11 15:43:02 notserpe: AFAICT Jul 11 15:43:24 the video is in flash - so I guess it won't work on the neo after all ... Jul 11 15:43:37 which you can grab from your "cache" as well... I played it on mplayer like that last year Jul 11 15:43:51 ... but thanks to untwisted for reminding me about it - I am watching the vids on my laptop Jul 11 15:45:18 how does ubuntumobile compare with openmoko? Jul 11 15:45:37 michaelpo: its for other targets Jul 11 15:45:58 what other targets? Jul 11 15:45:59 hm Jul 11 15:46:00 michaelpo: ubuntu mobile targets UMPC, openmoko targets phones Jul 11 15:46:15 UMPC cant make calls? Jul 11 15:46:34 you know what UMPC is? Jul 11 15:46:40 a tablet pc? Jul 11 15:46:53 ultramobilepc... ms origami... Jul 11 15:47:08 then compare their tech specs with neo1973 Jul 11 15:47:38 will umpc ever make calls? never? Jul 11 15:47:50 <|mperitus> skype style calls maybe. Jul 11 15:47:54 are you saying that ubuntumobil is too demanding for a phone? Jul 11 15:48:11 orzo: for such phones are the one targetted by openmoko? yes Jul 11 15:48:26 sorry, coworker came in Jul 11 15:48:32 looks like they're back Jul 11 15:48:39 whats the map for there dcorking? Jul 11 15:49:10 Ahhh, where you're from! Jul 11 15:49:20 can we ever make calls on laptops? plug in a pcmcia gsm card... use builtin mic and builtin speakers or external headset? Jul 11 15:50:21 what is sacrificed on a umpc, if you have openmoko with a lot of aps instead of ubuntomobile? Jul 11 15:50:44 or can we ever make landline calls on laptops? using the builtin modem? Jul 11 15:51:25 we can fax using the builtin modem in the laptops... there should not be problems to make calls right? Jul 11 15:51:42 * hrw will not comment - no time Jul 11 15:51:54 michaelpo: in principle you can. Jul 11 15:52:12 michaelpo: it depends on all the software supporting it, and the hardware. Jul 11 15:54:36 yeah voice modems should be available, dunno about linux drivres i nthis winmodem era Jul 11 15:55:17 actually the modem on this laptop is supported by alsa as a sound device =) Jul 11 15:55:35 never tried to generate dial tones though :-) Jul 11 16:00:53 whats the difference between world expedited and saver with regards to shipping..saver costs more Jul 11 16:01:23 UPS shipment options Jul 11 16:01:26 Sup3rkiddo: Expedited takes a few days longer. Express / Express saver is one / two day service Jul 11 16:01:36 tuukkah, you'd generally want to be able to use at commands for dialing and answering, then send/receive audio Jul 11 16:01:45 TRIsoft, oh.. Jul 11 16:01:49 thank you Jul 11 16:02:02 has anyone had any further contact from sales@openmoko re. shippign? Jul 11 16:02:05 hm, harald seems to be angry ( http://gnumonks.org/~laforge/weblog/ ) - someone knows the reasons? Jul 11 16:02:13 ewon: none reported Jul 11 16:02:36 k Jul 11 16:02:51 Sup3rkiddo: one / two day depends on location. Difference between Express and Saver is the guaranteed delivery time. Express is mostly delivery until 10am, Saver is during the day. Jul 11 16:03:14 mjr, that might be possible with the non-free daemon that implements modem functionality Jul 11 16:03:20 TRIsoft, oh ok.... Jul 11 16:04:24 oh nos! drama! Jul 11 16:04:24 gtg, cu Jul 11 16:04:46 well, luckily, gta01 is the pinnacle to me, so if it ships and then they all kill eachother then i'm fine Jul 11 16:05:19 <|R> y'a des GL qui se flashent pas ?! :/ Jul 11 16:05:23 <|R> oops Jul 11 16:05:35 "flashent" =) Jul 11 16:05:51 <|R> hehe Jul 11 16:05:56 <|R> fren-glish ;) Jul 11 16:06:09 indeed ;-) Jul 11 16:06:40 <|R> québec is very good with frenglish ;) Jul 11 16:06:45 tuukkah, but of course... Jul 11 16:06:46 |R, do you still pronounce like english "flash"? Jul 11 16:07:05 <|R> yeah... i try to pronounce everything in their original language sounding... Jul 11 16:07:39 mjr, that we'd want that doesn't mean it's actually implemented in the non-free stuff Jul 11 16:07:58 <|R> it's hard to use french words for everything... even though we do create a lot of new words ;) Jul 11 16:08:06 you mean non-proprietary, methinks Jul 11 16:08:59 is this what is called as a pidgin/ Jul 11 16:09:19 |R, what about, do you inflect "nous flashons"? Jul 11 16:09:52 Sup3rkiddo, no, this is just using a lot of loan-words afaik Jul 11 16:10:07 loan-words..hahah Jul 11 16:10:27 my favorite is 'die jeans' Jul 11 16:10:28 <|R> tuukkah : yeah, you keep the root of the word and adapt the rest :) Jul 11 16:10:55 i use tanglish in that case..tamil + english Jul 11 16:11:04 mjr, nope, i was talking about the limitations inflected on the users of the non-free implementation that is available Jul 11 16:11:22 <|R> you speak a bit of french? Jul 11 16:12:04 moi? un peu Jul 11 16:12:44 <|R> from school? travel? :) Jul 11 16:12:59 yeah, five years at school Jul 11 16:13:46 mais, il n'est rien en pratique Jul 11 16:14:17 <|R> i wouldn't be able to give you a word of finish so you're better off already ;-) Jul 11 16:14:33 sauna ?-) Jul 11 16:14:47 * don-o laughs Jul 11 16:14:50 <|R> haha Jul 11 16:15:32 what about the expression molotov cocktail, would you know that one? Jul 11 16:16:13 <|R> yep, so you're in the resistance too? ;P Jul 11 16:16:28 lol Jul 11 16:18:13 wikipedia has the story behind the expression :-) Jul 11 16:19:04 molotov cocktail isn't an expression, it's a toy! ffs! Jul 11 16:19:43 <|R> haha Jul 11 16:19:45 michaelpo: you said"or can we ever make landline calls on laptops? using the builtin modem?" i have done this with PCI/ISA modem on a linux desktop - so no reason why not on a laptop Jul 11 16:19:59 <|R> interesting history :) Jul 11 16:20:53 michaelpo: but i don't know if GSM modem cards or a tethered GSM phone can do the same thing - they are designed for data :) Jul 11 16:21:32 lol, cool pic too, |R Jul 11 16:21:43 i would guess that a gsm modem card has the analog pins but they are n/c Jul 11 16:22:25 It would need 'voice modem' functionality in most cases. Jul 11 16:22:39 <|R> http://fukung.net/v/4799/IMG_5894.JPG Jul 11 16:22:48 <|R> see... molotov _is_ a toy ;) Jul 11 16:22:49 you could probably open it up and solder a headphone jack to the appropriate pins, and run that around to the laptop sound card Jul 11 16:23:30 hahah Jul 11 16:23:48 holy crap that picture's f-cked up! Jul 11 16:24:08 That site is NSFW I bet Jul 11 16:24:32 <|R> depending of your definition of work and safe yes ;) Jul 11 16:25:13 it won't raise very many kilograms very many meters... Jul 11 16:26:27 lol Jul 11 16:26:38 netsplit pwns Jul 11 16:26:42 nice Jul 11 16:26:46 did i do that? Jul 11 16:26:56 yes ;) Jul 11 16:26:57 damn, still a ton of people here so i can't split in with ops :( Jul 11 16:27:32 aaaahaha Jul 11 16:27:36 <|R> would that make a new OpenMoko Slogan: Take Over freedom? ;P Jul 11 16:27:45 freedom to rule! Jul 11 16:30:37 someone ought to make an irc-compatible server that has a non-retarded network topology Jul 11 16:31:49 galexande, yeah like if it was an actual *network* it wouldn't matter each time a link goes down Jul 11 16:32:05 okay, why does my local qemu only give me a black screen? Jul 11 16:32:13 lots of netsplits on freenode the last few days :( Jul 11 16:32:42 dcorking the running joke is, that we have now holdiays in germany Jul 11 16:32:52 so kids have time for dos attacks Jul 11 16:33:09 I rsync'ed opemnmoko-{kernel,flash}.image to local host, built qemu and only get blank screen :( Jul 11 16:33:24 blindcoder sorry cant help Jul 11 16:37:46 woglinde: i thought only nice people used freenode :) Jul 11 16:37:50 ah Jul 11 16:37:56 it needs a bunch of other files, too Jul 11 16:37:57 blindcoder? Jul 11 16:38:01 but doesn't complain about them missing Jul 11 16:38:02 hehe Jul 11 16:38:12 I just rsync'ed the whole build/qemu directory over Jul 11 16:38:18 now it works Jul 11 16:38:29 what's the point of this in the faq: "*XorA guesses that if your first question is "is there an emulator" then you're not actually ever going to do dev work :-)"? Jul 11 16:39:17 woglinde: Thou shalt not lose thy terminals! Jul 11 16:39:38 Thou shalt put them where thou hast easy access to them! Jul 11 16:39:41 tuukkah, is not snark essentiial in a wiki? Jul 11 16:39:46 sometimes screen screws up Jul 11 16:40:38 galexande, yeah but how is it supposed to even make sense? Jul 11 16:40:48 sense is essential to a wiki? Jul 11 16:41:08 blindcoder kdm restart after debian unstable upgrade Jul 11 16:41:10 you'd have to ask xora :) Jul 11 16:41:11 a good signal-to-noise ratio would be nice Jul 11 16:41:25 you mean noise-to-signal. Jul 11 16:41:28 it's a wiki.. Jul 11 16:41:31 it seems to me like a lot of emulator-users will be looky-loos "oh no, it doesn't do anything" and never touch it again Jul 11 16:41:46 but i think at thisp oint the people with emulators are a lot more likely to produce code than the ones who are waiting for ups to show up Jul 11 16:42:12 jedix, so you want the wiki to be a lot of noice? Jul 11 16:42:14 at least if you've used mokomakefile to build the emu you're in a spot to compile ;) Jul 11 16:42:32 i've used mokomakefile and i'm in a spot to figure out why it doesn't work :) Jul 11 16:42:33 tuukkah: what I want does not change reality Jul 11 16:42:45 as much as I wish it did Jul 11 16:42:46 the point largely is that you don't need an emulator to develop for openmoko, you just need, say, an x86 pc Jul 11 16:42:53 yup Jul 11 16:43:06 jedix, i was talking about what would be nice, so no, what you suggest is not what i meant Jul 11 16:43:18 ah, sorry. Jul 11 16:43:34 michaelpo and SpeedEvil : fwiw, the GSM AT commands are described in great detail here - wget http://www.3gpp.org/ftp/Specs/archive/07_series/07.07/0707-780.zip you just need to find out if your phone or modem card supports them ... Jul 11 16:43:59 ... however I have tried using AT commands to make a GSM phone dial a voice call - and do you know what happens? Jul 11 16:44:06 jedix, and as it's a wiki i'm also able to do my part in making that a reality, whether that ever happens or not :-) Jul 11 16:44:09 Aliens flew out your nose? Jul 11 16:44:22 SpeedEvil: :D Jul 11 16:44:22 lol Jul 11 16:44:39 counter? Jul 11 16:44:40 "/msg aloril counter?" for actual long message, giving short version here: (last update 2007-07-10 13:43) http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter : Order https://direct.openmoko.com/ ; Shipping prob. 60% in a week 19:15:15 (7.802±3.0 days) (1730;246) Jul 11 16:44:47 SpeedEvil: the call goes through - but you have to talk on the handset, not on the PC soundcard :) Jul 11 16:44:50 dcorking, did you remember to put a semicolon in the end of ATD line? Jul 11 16:45:18 right =) Jul 11 16:45:19 tuukkah: no - does that route the audio over the serial cable? Jul 11 16:45:36 This is what a 'voice modem' typically is. Jul 11 16:45:45 It sends the data over a serial link. Jul 11 16:45:51 the serial link Jul 11 16:45:57 dcorking, no, i thought the docs say without a semicolon it will be a data call or something Jul 11 16:45:58 not over seperate audio sockets Jul 11 16:46:27 SpeedEvil: that is the case for a POTS voice modem - is it also true for a GSM 'voice modem' if such a thing exists? Jul 11 16:46:39 dcorking: yes Jul 11 16:46:48 dcorking: the GSM modem on the neo can't do this. Jul 11 16:47:07 You can only get the audio out via analog lines Jul 11 16:47:21 SpeedEvil: that is good to know Jul 11 16:47:28 luckily the neo has the extra circuitry to be a voice mode Jul 11 16:47:29 SpeedEvil, do we have adc on the lines? Jul 11 16:47:45 Lots Jul 11 16:47:49 what extra circuitry galexande ? Jul 11 16:47:57 Calls can be essentially routed through the CPU Jul 11 16:47:58 dcorking, the sound chip in the moko does just about everything you could imagine Jul 11 16:48:04 you can do all sorts of wierdness Jul 11 16:48:05 the codec can route gsm audio data to the SoC though so we can do stuff anyway Jul 11 16:48:11 i wish i could remember ewhere it was documented on the wiki Jul 11 16:48:16 yeah Jul 11 16:48:30 (laglaglag) Jul 11 16:48:33 that is amazing - we just need to dream up wierd stuff Jul 11 16:49:03 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973_Audio_Subsystem Jul 11 16:49:08 For example - anyone you know has an annoyingly high voice? Jul 11 16:49:16 lol Jul 11 16:49:19 Want to set up a per-caller pitch bender? Jul 11 16:49:25 So that they don't anymore. Jul 11 16:49:26 basically, it will do dac and adc simultaneously to/from any sources you want, with pass-through between them too Jul 11 16:49:49 so you can route calls to software (necessary for bluetooth), speakerphone, the little speaker by your ear, whatever.. Jul 11 16:49:55 all of the above Jul 11 16:50:13 SpeedEvil, put some evilspeed on the moko shipment! Jul 11 16:50:13 lo Jul 11 16:50:17 grrr rofl Jul 11 16:50:30 oh yeah! it's stereo! Jul 11 16:50:42 and gsm isn't, so basically you can do two streams at once Jul 11 16:50:49 so you can have it pitch shifting the incoming voice *and* the outgoing voice Jul 11 16:50:50 i think Jul 11 16:51:03 you can wreak all sorts of havoc with this chip Jul 11 16:51:33 yeah you can manipulate both directions of a call independently, or at least that's been promised to us :] Jul 11 16:51:36 pitch shifting sounds fun - but it also sounds great for boring things like recording calls Jul 11 16:51:44 dcorking, *nod* Jul 11 16:51:48 yeah that's the more realistic thing...recording calls, pbx software, and so on Jul 11 16:52:03 pitch shifting would strain its little arm :) Jul 11 16:52:04 What would be _so_ cool would be voice recognition. Jul 11 16:52:10 You're in a meeting. Jul 11 16:52:15 You can't take the call. Jul 11 16:52:21 pbx software -1 - that should be on a fixed line not a radio Jul 11 16:52:22 "Hostname, save my calls." Jul 11 16:52:22 Your phone is on the desk in front of you. Jul 11 16:52:35 It prints the speech as it happens on the display. Jul 11 16:52:39 name your phone something like "edda" and people will think you're talking to your secretary Jul 11 16:52:54 use festival ;) Jul 11 16:52:57 for people who haven't discovered SMS yet! Jul 11 16:53:08 Festival is the reverse problem though. Jul 11 16:53:09 dcording, i agree entirely, but i haven't seen a day goby where asterix hasn't been mentioned here Jul 11 16:53:10 asterisk? Jul 11 16:53:14 "secure!" Jul 11 16:53:18 *phone combusts* Jul 11 16:53:31 * ewon wants Jul 11 16:53:35 i think we should set up a bot to answer the asterisk question Jul 11 16:53:40 "I said answer, not secure, you useless piece of brick-phone" Jul 11 16:53:44 Also - what would be very good is just general text searching of incoming calls. Jul 11 16:54:02 yeah, it would be awesome beyond awesome if i had a log of all my conversations to grep Jul 11 16:54:09 what would be nice would be to pump incoming sms's through festival - handy whilst driving Jul 11 16:54:14 god, and it could listen to the environment around it Jul 11 16:54:16 i'm in love Jul 11 16:54:38 * ScaredyCat peeps out from behind the curtain Jul 11 16:54:39 Asterix is a series of french comic books... Jul 11 16:54:59 it could blend a callers voice with music, feed it back to them, and be a rather disturbing karaoke Jul 11 16:55:00 i could be like "computer, where did I hear the quote ''hasta lavista'' and it would say ''2:30pm yesterday'' and i could say ''play back'' and it would play me the closing credits of terminator :) Jul 11 16:55:10 hahah Jul 11 16:55:23 gonna need more memory for that :) Jul 11 16:55:24 did someone say *blend*? ;) Jul 11 16:55:25 and i'd be like "oh yeah, i watched terminator yesterday. thanks for reminding me, my brain outside my brain!" Jul 11 16:55:33 carrar, it takes microsd!! Jul 11 16:55:54 For that - I want a camera, goggles, and facial recognition. Jul 11 16:55:55 a continues vox recording, indexed ino a db with words Jul 11 16:56:01 I'm terrible for people recognition. Jul 11 16:56:12 Having their names floating above their heads would help lots. Jul 11 16:56:17 and audio can easily be encoded down to 7kbytes/sec, which is only like 600MB/day Jul 11 16:56:42 would love to run postgres on a cell phone Jul 11 16:56:52 carrar, heh, freak Jul 11 16:56:54 carrar why? Jul 11 16:56:58 use sqlite Jul 11 16:57:04 i'm sure postgres would ruun fine :) Jul 11 16:57:06 cause I could!!! Jul 11 16:57:07 (but i would use sqlite) Jul 11 16:57:16 backup some small db's to my cell phone Jul 11 16:57:19 i mean, 128MB...jeesh. for the longest time my virtual host was 128MB RAM Jul 11 16:57:37 hi everybody Jul 11 16:57:39 and we ran mysql, apache, a dozen screens, and everything Jul 11 16:57:44 put my ham radio contact logs on my cell Jul 11 16:57:47 so, no news from fic regarding shipments? Jul 11 16:57:47 i have a question !! Jul 11 16:57:53 ferric, the 16th :) Jul 11 16:58:03 no new news, ie. :-) Jul 11 16:58:15 has anyone received the 'second' email? Jul 11 16:58:25 yeah Jul 11 16:58:26 i want a openmoko bot i live in mexico Jul 11 16:58:27 I gave up ordering one Jul 11 16:58:29 nothing new Jul 11 16:58:31 tried twice Jul 11 16:58:42 no news about quantity or if its sold out, either. Jul 11 16:59:03 the FIC guys have gone back to radio-silence, as far as i can tell, just like before the 9th. Jul 11 16:59:13 h1pp1e: so, order one? Jul 11 16:59:19 yeah i think they don't like to talk when they have notihng to say Jul 11 16:59:23 they're in Barbados ;) Jul 11 16:59:25 they "open source" their rumor management to folks like us :) Jul 11 16:59:27 micke y mentioned that they were all sold out. Jul 11 16:59:31 asian culture Jul 11 16:59:38 but we guessed that already. Jul 11 16:59:45 they will talk when they are ready Jul 11 16:59:48 SpeedEvil: all sold out at rt # what? Jul 11 16:59:55 Now Jul 11 16:59:56 i have a few questions about openmoko cellphone GSM compatibility... Jul 11 16:59:58 i'm satisfied that they announced the 9th, then didn't say anything, and released on the 9th Jul 11 16:59:58 they'll arrive and be loaded with windows CE :P Jul 11 17:00:02 well - a couple of hours ago Jul 11 17:00:05 hahha Jul 11 17:00:19 silence so far seems to imply adherence to stated deadlines Jul 11 17:00:35 h1pp1e, it's compatible with gsm, yes. Other questions? Jul 11 17:00:41 h1pp1e: then you are in the right place to ask Jul 11 17:00:42 if its really sold out, that should be announced. the website doesnt say anything about it and the Shop is still open. Jul 11 17:00:42 paragon, if it's wince booted by u-boot then i'm still a happy customer Jul 11 17:01:36 thanks ferric, I want to buy one, but I need to know if you could send me to Mexico Jul 11 17:02:18 I didn't see in country list Jul 11 17:02:29 has the community mailing list gone dead? the last post was yesterday Jul 11 17:03:23 h1pp1e, simply go here to order, Mexico is in the list: https://direct.openmoko.com/ Jul 11 17:03:28 i think we're just at the eye of the storm Jul 11 17:03:44 michaelpo: fwiw the official GSM AT command set is here http://www.3gpp.org/ftp/Specs/archive/07_series/07.07/0707-780.zip - but as SpeedEvil says, the Neo cannot be a voice modem - though the Neo could do even smarter if it had suitable open software (as galexande pointed out) Jul 11 17:05:00 "cannot be a voice modem" - highly up to interpretation; it can _do_ anything a voice modem can, really... Jul 11 17:05:11 the neo can, but the gsm chipset won't Jul 11 17:05:16 so I'd call it capable :] Jul 11 17:05:18 yeah Jul 11 17:05:29 What's the difference between a $300 and $450 dlls openmoko phone (neo base) ? Jul 11 17:05:30 h1pp1e: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.) Jul 11 17:05:57 hippie, the important part is the jtag debug board, which is necessary if you break u-boot, and can be handy for kernel driver development Jul 11 17:06:04 most users won't need it Jul 11 17:06:07 well, i can understand why they're not claiming to be sold out Jul 11 17:06:20 they're just going to restart the assembly line, produce more 1713's Jul 11 17:06:25 yeah Jul 11 17:06:32 so there might be a 2month delay but you'll get one Jul 11 17:07:08 also, i think that their cause has been helped by the iphone.... i would not have spent $300 on a phone 6 months ago (wireless carrier subisidies) Jul 11 17:07:41 Yeah, all other phones suddenly seem a lot cheaper. Jul 11 17:07:52 i'm spending $300 on a palmtop :) Jul 11 17:08:07 And the difference between Neo1973 GTA01B_v04 and Neo1973 GTA02? Jul 11 17:08:17 h1pp1e: its on the wiki Jul 11 17:08:23 spending $300 on a palmtop is normal to me, i only haven't done it because i never carry palmtops around with me Jul 11 17:08:29 but if it's built into my phone, i can't leave it at home :) Jul 11 17:08:54 yeah, palmtops are limited Jul 11 17:08:58 i suppose with wifi they're ok Jul 11 17:09:01 my creditcard is still uncharged *sigh* Jul 11 17:09:20 i decided my next palmtop would have wireless and SD, and neo has both :) Jul 11 17:09:32 hippie, GTA02 will be faster and add 802.11b Jul 11 17:10:54 did someone say that most of the code will come out of people with emulators? Jul 11 17:11:35 * ferric is planning on repurposing his linux box this weekend to become the moko devbox Jul 11 17:12:10 a moment ago it was said that currently more code comes from those people who set up emulators than those who wait for their phone to arrive Jul 11 17:12:21 ah Jul 11 17:12:29 tuukkah: that was very formal of you Jul 11 17:12:31 heh Jul 11 17:12:56 i just meant that i won't produce any code until i get my device :) Jul 11 17:13:09 galexande: really? Jul 11 17:13:14 whereas if i had a woody for emulators, i could be plying with it already. Jul 11 17:13:28 ferric, wanted to formulate it clearly indeed :-) Jul 11 17:13:43 you don't need an emulator to play with it Jul 11 17:13:53 so, the OS is there but the UI is missing. would that be correct? Jul 11 17:14:02 mjr, does mokomakefile build all the openmoko-blah things for x86 as well? Jul 11 17:14:14 mjr: what do you need then? Jul 11 17:14:18 * Stephmw smiles at the "Will it Blend: The iPhone" Jul 11 17:14:25 anyway, I'm waiting on the device as well, to boost my motivational levels, which aren't generally that high Jul 11 17:14:27 ferric, yeah pretty close...device drivers are there...i think most of the stateful daemons are kind of there Jul 11 17:14:30 dammit. I missed another j2me smackdown Jul 11 17:14:40 stephmw? Jul 11 17:15:19 stephmw I have now bb recpie for caco-cldc1.1 running Jul 11 17:15:25 cacao Jul 11 17:15:41 but only native so far Jul 11 17:15:47 woglinde: someone earlier was complaining that no j2me games he'd tried would work on his (existing) phone Jul 11 17:15:53 woglinde: great :) Jul 11 17:16:05 damn, reproducable mokomakefile problem, and i'm way too lazy to grok it Jul 11 17:16:05 crosscompilig next step Jul 11 17:16:26 but it cost me some nerv with false leading docu from cacao and classpath Jul 11 17:16:37 blindcoder, which instructions worked for you? Jul 11 17:18:25 hola friends Jul 11 17:18:39 tuukkah: the MokoMakefile wiki page Jul 11 17:18:48 tuukkah: although I had to fix a few things manually Jul 11 17:19:29 currently I'm trying to get an application of my own included Jul 11 17:19:41 with no documentation on how to do it, yay Jul 11 17:20:04 blind, please use the wiki as you learn :) Jul 11 17:20:11 (one bitbake noob to another) Jul 11 17:20:33 galexande: I've seen earlier today that there is information on www.openembedded.org Jul 11 17:20:39 galexande: too bad that site is dead right now Jul 11 17:21:12 openmoko: 03alphaone * r2377 10/trunk/oe/packages/linux/ (2 files in 2 dirs): * Enable CONFIG_RTC_HCTOSYS option to retrieve time from the RTC on boot Jul 11 17:21:12 blindcoder, do you meant the part about simply running "make qemu" and it try to do everything? Jul 11 17:21:54 tuukkah: yeah Jul 11 17:22:29 can someone here tell me how to write a rudimentary bb file? Jul 11 17:22:46 I edited the openmoko-stylus-demo sources to be a 'new' program Jul 11 17:22:55 and would like to have that as a new package now Jul 11 17:23:09 hmm just got a bounce from sales@openmoko.com 'Remote host said: 451 Could not complete sender verify callout' Jul 11 17:23:22 any openmoko insider around? Jul 11 17:23:39 no Jul 11 17:23:42 not atm Jul 11 17:24:11 woglinde, ok Jul 11 17:24:24 * blindcoder still suspects they'll just bill everyone's CC and run off to the caimans Jul 11 17:24:32 gota run, c u Jul 11 17:26:50 blindcoder, i don't see anything about rsync'ing? Jul 11 17:28:10 tuukkah: that was something else Jul 11 17:28:22 tuukkah: I rsync'ed the _compiled_ version to my local desktop Jul 11 17:28:54 are there precompiled binaries available somewhere? Jul 11 17:29:26 good question Jul 11 17:32:02 hmm Jul 11 17:32:17 'cd build ; bitbake mokoscribble' builds it, but 'make all' doesn't :( Jul 11 17:32:41 tuukkah: Look around http://downloads.openmoko.org/ maybe :) Jul 11 17:34:05 anyone here actually coded something for the openmoko yet? Jul 11 17:34:18 untwisted: I'm trying to :/ Jul 11 17:34:20 what have i coded not for the openmoko, man? Jul 11 17:34:31 i should build our mainframe cross-compiler for openmoko :) Jul 11 17:34:36 blindcoder: whatcha workin on? Jul 11 17:34:37 The Calculator in the curren OM version is made by some guy on the mailinglist at least Jul 11 17:34:42 untwisted: miserably failing to even get it to register my package, but trying Jul 11 17:34:59 untwisted: trying to get MokoMakefile to register my package right now Jul 11 17:35:14 blindcoder: bummer, whatcha running on? Jul 11 17:35:23 untwisted: GNU/Linux Jul 11 17:35:36 and I have no effing clue about bitbake and openembedded Jul 11 17:35:43 and the openembedded site has died Jul 11 17:35:46 untwisted: Btw, Strung Out are warming up for DKM :D Jul 11 17:36:06 * CM gets going to the venue Jul 11 17:36:06 blindcoder: Heard any reports of troubles with OS X? All my other boxen are gnu/linux but I like to work on my lappletop. Jul 11 17:36:14 CM: Nice! :D have fun!!! Jul 11 17:36:26 untwisted: I don't follow macosx stuff Jul 11 17:37:15 blindcoder: Righto. I think I might give a go at a simple game. Jul 11 17:38:34 untwisted: tictactoe! Jul 11 17:38:47 untwisted: to be played with another over bt! Jul 11 17:39:01 untwisted: and then 'sink ships' (no idea of english name) Jul 11 17:39:24 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[OpenMoko_under_QEMU_on_MacOSX]] [[OpenMoko_under_QEMU/it]] [[Neo1973]] [[FAQ]] [[Neo1973/ru]] [[Running_OpenMoko_on_PC/it]] [[Getting_OpenMoko_working_on_host_with_Xoo/it]] [[Getting_Openmoko_working_on_host_with_Xoo/it]] [[Getting_OpenMoko_working_on_host_with_Xephyr/it]] Jul 11 17:42:04 blindcoder: battleships Jul 11 17:42:30 blindcoder: if 3,4,5 length ships at hidden positions on a few*few board Jul 11 17:43:22 hi everyone! does anyone experience problem with lists.openmoko.org? I did not receive any message since yesterday (it was ok for months...) Jul 11 17:43:23 cayco: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.) Jul 11 17:43:34 ug Jul 11 17:43:37 pidgin died Jul 11 17:43:40 why is DBUS_GLIB_BIN = $(OMDIR)/build/tmp/staging/arm-linux/bin Jul 11 17:43:40 shouldn't it be $(OMDIR)/build/tmp/staging/i686-linux/bin/ ? Jul 11 17:43:43 blind, battleships! Jul 11 17:43:45 you sank my battleship! Jul 11 17:43:49 hey holy flying poop, I just edited a Makefile (not the Makefile.in or Makefile.am) in openmoko-dialer, and MokoMakefile just went with it Jul 11 17:43:52 i might make it through this today Jul 11 17:43:54 cayco, om.org has been way overloaded, but maybe no one is talking since there's nothing to say until it ships Jul 11 17:44:24 well i check on http://lists.openmoko.org and there are some mails since yesterday Jul 11 17:44:27 does sean m-p ever make an appearance on irc? Jul 11 17:45:28 SpeedEvil: yeah, that one Jul 11 17:48:34 galexande: basically not. Jul 11 17:48:40 He did once or twice. Jul 11 17:59:50 this silence is terribe. Jul 11 17:59:58 s/terribe/terrible/ Jul 11 17:59:59 notserpe meant: this silence is terrible. Jul 11 18:00:07 no to mention the last planet entry :-\ Jul 11 18:05:43 there are so many possible back-stories to that entry though Jul 11 18:06:17 same with the silence from fic :-) Jul 11 18:07:23 ETOOMANYRUMORS Jul 11 18:07:48 heh Jul 11 18:07:51 no rumors yet, but the abundance of unknowns is a good breeding ground Jul 11 18:08:55 * don-o waters the rumors Jul 11 18:09:26 HAH! Jul 11 18:09:35 my package is built now by MokoMakefile Jul 11 18:09:42 and - probably - even included in the rootfs Jul 11 18:09:48 blindcoder: awesome! what does the package do Jul 11 18:09:58 don-o: currently, nothing :-) Jul 11 18:10:09 don-o: I'm just starting to get friendly with the whole build process Jul 11 18:10:27 don-o: so much stuff which is - from my perspective - totally braindamaged Jul 11 18:10:33 don-o: but I slowly wrap my mind around it Jul 11 18:10:35 anyone else wonder if someone will buy them an openmoko because they're an awesome person and don't have the money atm? because I am ;) Jul 11 18:10:52 blindcoder: a wiki page of 'how to start a new project and integrate it into mokemakefile' would be cool Jul 11 18:11:05 untwisted: hah, I'll just take LaF0rge hostage once he's back in berlin :D Jul 11 18:11:05 i don't think it's braindamaged, i think it's overbuilt :) Jul 11 18:11:18 don-o: there is, on the openembedded.org site, but that's dead right now :/ Jul 11 18:11:35 blindcoder: Ok, I'll keep my mouth shut if you send me one too ;) Jul 11 18:11:39 blindcoder: ok Jul 11 18:11:43 galexande: I'm just used to another distribution build kit which I think is totally awesome, but after 5 years of working with it, I might be biased :) Jul 11 18:13:16 blind, which one? Jul 11 18:13:21 galexande: ROCK Linux Jul 11 18:13:29 new to me Jul 11 18:13:50 my experience is with debian, where i build just the package i need, and someone far away with a bigger computer does the batch build for all the different platforms Jul 11 18:14:19 so this bitbake/openembedded mentality of every developer doing huge batch builds of everything, it is scary to me Jul 11 18:14:22 and my hard disks Jul 11 18:14:42 esp for the hard disks Jul 11 18:15:24 the neatest thing about openmoko is the cross libs are all up to date...keeping a copy of the cross libs up to date with what was on familiar was a real pain in the butt Jul 11 18:16:05 hopefully the fic crew will find a better way to distribute the software Jul 11 18:16:41 exactly. i think a self-update tool is a big hole in the process right now Jul 11 18:18:48 I guess the update mechanism for non-devs will be memory flashes Jul 11 18:19:03 for devs I think the process is okay Jul 11 18:19:31 have there been posts to the community list today? its been dead for me. Jul 11 18:19:33 since the neo comes with a microSD card, i hope that new packages go there Jul 11 18:20:07 there are some binary packages here: http://downloads.openmoko.org/tmp/neo1973/ipk/ Jul 11 18:21:01 ipk is like deb but for embedded devices, right? Jul 11 18:21:09 afaik, yes Jul 11 18:21:29 anyone know what the status of openmoko-libs is? Jul 11 18:21:55 seems like there's been some stuff done on openmokoui and openmokogsmd Jul 11 18:22:04 but i can't find anything else. Jul 11 18:22:34 or did i just make a mistake checking out from svn last time? Jul 11 18:23:04 so ipkg install new-app; or ipkg update && ipkg upgrade Jul 11 18:23:16 tuukkah, yup, that's how it worked in familiar Jul 11 18:23:35 as i recall the .ipk packages are even packed the same, as an ar with a data.tar.gz and a control.tar.gz Jul 11 18:23:56 and those files on the server are a hint it could work the same way on openmoko Jul 11 18:26:58 oh the faq has this link: http://handhelds.org/moin/moin.cgi/Ipkg Jul 11 18:27:46 heh. the 'itsy' package management system Jul 11 18:28:25 i could practise on my wrt54gs Jul 11 18:28:29 the neo is not so resource restrained. i hope it has the dependency-smarts of dpkg. Jul 11 18:28:44 if not, id rather user dpkg/apt Jul 11 18:28:56 tuukkah: no practising on devices I heavily rely on ;) Jul 11 18:29:14 i generally did not find ipkg upgrade to be as troublefree as apt-get upgrade Jul 11 18:29:19 not that either is fun Jul 11 18:29:35 don-o, it does have at least some dependency smarts Jul 11 18:29:56 hi Jul 11 18:29:57 galexande: thats a relief. Jul 11 18:31:22 whether upgrade is a pain or not depends on the quality of the packaging - this is why debian and apt shine Jul 11 18:31:40 \o/ Jul 11 18:31:44 the program is on the rootfs :D Jul 11 18:31:45 tuukkah, yeah, and why they've been nothing but pain for the last two years :) Jul 11 18:32:22 galexande, what are we thinking of now? Jul 11 18:33:54 i remember i would've wanted dist-upgrades to be smoother than they have been, to sarge and to etch Jul 11 18:34:30 is it possible to use Micro SDHC Cards (>2GB) in the Neo? Jul 11 18:35:36 So when do these things ship anyway? Jul 11 18:36:17 here's more image files: http://buildhost.openmoko.org/snapshots/2007.04/images/ Jul 11 18:36:54 hozer: monday, we all hope Jul 11 18:38:09 blindcoder: did you order one? Jul 11 18:38:17 untwisted: no Jul 11 18:38:24 untwisted: shipping costs too high Jul 11 18:38:28 untwisted: and I want wifi Jul 11 18:38:32 tuukkah, i'm just whining :) for ten years i have pretty much effortlessly done whatever the least-effort upgrade path is in debian Jul 11 18:38:33 blindcoder: whats the shipping cost? Jul 11 18:38:38 ups stands in the wiki Jul 11 18:38:45 <_Qwerty_> Whois Harald Welte, I saw the link to his blogg in here, but dident catch the context Jul 11 18:38:49 i have been fighting the OpenMokoMakefile for like 20h now, i finally got it to build and run with qemu, but my changes to the sourcetree is not reflected in the rootfs, i must be missing something obvious :) Jul 11 18:38:54 untwisted: 115 + 19% VAT Jul 11 18:38:55 blindcoder: Yah, I want the wifi and the accelerometer! Jul 11 18:38:58 but over the last two years, i haven't gone a week without having some huge argument with apt over whether or not i was going to spend the next three hours of my life arguing more with it Jul 11 18:39:21 it's become practically routine to pull old versions of packages out of the repository by hand to satisfy bizarre dependency loops and so on Jul 11 18:39:32 blindcoder: damn! That sucks! I hope its not as expensive over here Jul 11 18:40:35 untwisted, try to fill in the order form and you'll see Jul 11 18:41:49 blindcoder: do you know where it ships from? Jul 11 18:41:53 okay, my program is on the rootfs and can be started from the terminal Jul 11 18:41:58 hozer: california IIRC Jul 11 18:42:16 now to add functionality to it tomorrow ;) Jul 11 18:42:17 blindcoder, lol Jul 11 18:42:39 * hozer should probably start building so I have something to run on it if it shows up late next week Jul 11 18:42:42 hozer: fremont,ca (san francisco basically) Jul 11 18:42:57 blindcoder, ooh :) Jul 11 18:42:59 empty_mind: not funny, took me all day now Jul 11 18:43:25 im curious as to what version, if any, is pre-flashed to the neo Jul 11 18:43:27 I have been thinking that putting an AFS (distributed filesystem) client on the phone and making the disconnected operation code in openafs would be a killer app for a phone Jul 11 18:43:32 blindcoder, oh i was not laughing on your code but on California answer Jul 11 18:43:40 err, making the disconnected operation code *work* Jul 11 18:43:43 empty_mind: oh, sorry :) Jul 11 18:44:28 empty_mind: also, my knowledge of US topology is... incomplete to say the least :) Jul 11 18:44:43 empty_mind, what's funny about california ?-) Jul 11 18:45:28 hozer, does afs ever work for anyone? Jul 11 18:46:24 hmmm, only $12.71 shipping :) Jul 11 18:46:30 untwisted, ^5 Jul 11 18:46:36 go team usa!! Jul 11 18:46:52 (sorry, it is so hard to find something to justify patriotism anymore) Jul 11 18:47:01 galexande: lol Jul 11 18:47:09 hehe Jul 11 18:47:17 115 here for the advanced version *snif* Jul 11 18:47:24 galexande: Haha, thats a good point. GO TEAM USA :P Jul 11 18:47:27 I'm really hoping for EU/Germany distribution for 02 Jul 11 18:47:44 we rule at being the final shipping destination of a pre-production linux phone Jul 11 18:48:04 Built and concieved in Taiwan :) Jul 11 18:48:20 blindcoder, the news is that it won't necessarily be ready by october Jul 11 18:48:29 NOOOO! Jul 11 18:48:30 Hardware - prolly will. Jul 11 18:48:39 IMO Jul 11 18:48:42 but i don't honestly think gta02 will be ready by october Jul 11 18:48:43 sooo Jul 11 18:48:49 reminds me of the quote from the movie Armageddon where the russian cosmonaut says 'Russian parts... American parts... All made in Taiwan!' Jul 11 18:49:04 galexande: october? you _are_ an optimist. Jul 11 18:49:16 Ho hum, well I guess I may have to buy the dev version for sure then Jul 11 18:49:28 galexande: oh honestly dont think. never mind. sheesh. :( Jul 11 18:49:49 well, 700 bucks for a sub-par phone is just too much for me Jul 11 18:49:58 lol sub-par Jul 11 18:49:58 I'll wait til january, too Jul 11 18:50:12 there's a reason it's called a developer preview. Jul 11 18:50:20 yeah, indeed Jul 11 18:50:37 like they say, if you can't add signal, don't add noise. :P Jul 11 18:51:03 and while I like programming and already have my whole dev environment set up, I'll still hold out for 02 Jul 11 18:51:17 galexande: I'm running my home directory on AFS ;) Jul 11 18:51:22 ferric: well, sorry for saying anything. guess 70% of the chatting audience sholud probably just go now, yeah? Jul 11 18:51:38 and more importantly for a phone, all my music (ogg and mp3 format) is on afs Jul 11 18:52:17 blindcoder: yep Jul 11 18:52:23 * ferric grins. Jul 11 18:52:36 any news on order confirmations? i still haven't received mine Jul 11 18:52:44 myk_: not even the rt email? Jul 11 18:52:48 ferric: well, tough luck. I'm here to stay :P Jul 11 18:53:07 blindcoder: and if anyone asks what happened to 70% of the chatting audience, just say, ferric killed them all. Jul 11 18:53:07 ferric: i received the rt auto-reply; it said i'd get an order confirmation within 24 hours; that was 3 days ago Jul 11 18:53:08 I heard that customs will hold them for a little while Jul 11 18:53:19 myk_: no one has heard back afaik. Jul 11 18:53:22 ferric: hooray, someone to blame :D Jul 11 18:53:24 myk_: what was your rt#? Jul 11 18:53:38 ChumleyEX: heard? from where? Jul 11 18:54:00 it was on howardforums Jul 11 18:54:05 not sure where they got that from Jul 11 18:54:19 woohoo 343 nicks popularity rising :) Jul 11 18:54:20 but most things came from the freemoko org site Jul 11 18:54:21 those idiots Jul 11 18:54:36 dcordes: i fear this is buzz generated traffic Jul 11 18:54:42 what country are you in Jul 11 18:55:19 US Jul 11 18:55:21 ferric: #1987 Jul 11 18:55:38 ChumleyEX: US customs will probably want to make sure they're edible before letting them into the country Jul 11 18:55:45 well I know customs between CA and US takes awhile Jul 11 18:55:46 lol Jul 11 18:56:16 strangely, i haven't received any messages from the openmoko mailing lists this morning Jul 11 18:56:22 usually i'd have received dozens by now Jul 11 18:56:38 yeah the ML seems to be down Jul 11 18:56:45 myk_: I guess tehy'll do the blender test :D Jul 11 18:57:00 blindcoder: right! :-) Jul 11 18:59:34 seems like everything died, no commits... Jul 11 18:59:39 :p Jul 11 18:59:47 myk_: nice. Jul 11 18:59:49 they probably got one hell of a hangover Jul 11 19:00:01 myk_: the lists are down Jul 11 19:00:09 they got slashdotted. Jul 11 19:00:14 aha Jul 11 19:00:22 oh wow. the howardforums thread has turned into bullshit. Jul 11 19:00:45 yeah some fool went off on a guy Jul 11 19:00:54 I wonder how many hours he has left Jul 11 19:01:04 lol Jul 11 19:01:39 it made for a good read while I was at work Jul 11 19:03:44 hozer: openafs on openmoko? We're on the same page there :-) Jul 11 19:03:48 mmm networking over bt2.0 Jul 11 19:04:30 unknown_lamer: yeah i want to rock the moko world with adhoc bt networking Jul 11 19:04:56 CSR BlueCore. yeah! Jul 11 19:04:56 don-o: I have the rough beginnings of stuff to use emacs as a control server on my workstation Jul 11 19:05:04 yay for bnep pans Jul 11 19:05:08 don-o: just send elisp from the phone -> emacs and let it control my entire house Jul 11 19:05:21 mjr: bnep? Jul 11 19:05:26 unknown_lamer: freaky. Jul 11 19:05:29 once I get my hands on a neo then I can write a little ui for it Jul 11 19:05:37 a grid of buttons probably Jul 11 19:05:47 it helps when you use emms and such :-) Jul 11 19:06:09 sounds fun Jul 11 19:06:15 just need to wire my house then :D Jul 11 19:06:55 I want to get some stuff set up with the phone notifying me of new IMs and such as well Jul 11 19:07:21 so then I can wander about reading and such and not be tied to the workstation when I have to talk to e.g. work 'sometime today' Jul 11 19:07:22 wouldn't it be better to just get the IM's? Jul 11 19:07:23 ChumleyEX: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.) Jul 11 19:07:56 that just blew my mind Jul 11 19:07:57 i wonder if it's easier to put that url in the topic than send it to everyone that comes in and asks a question? Jul 11 19:08:01 :) Jul 11 19:08:21 scratch that, i don't think anyone reads the topic Jul 11 19:08:29 whassa to-pick? Jul 11 19:09:52 i don't think anyone reads the faq either :) Jul 11 19:10:21 don-o, Bluetooth Network Encapsulation Protocol Jul 11 19:10:59 ChumleyEX: depends Jul 11 19:11:33 ChumleyEX: but it's easier to get the message received notifications (gaim-dbus) and then add that later Jul 11 19:11:35 holy poopsticks, batman: NOTE: build 200707111339: completed Jul 11 19:11:53 galexande: hehe Jul 11 19:12:00 haha Jul 11 19:12:17 anyway, kids Jul 11 19:12:19 as muuch as i whine, building every single package for openmoko was less work than just building the arm-linux-elf gcc cross-dev tools was for familiar (handhelds.org) Jul 11 19:12:19 naptime Jul 11 19:12:35 though it took a lot more cpu time :) Jul 11 19:12:51 galexande: now have fun editing/adding packages until I put up the steps I did tomorrow :D Jul 11 19:13:35 any of you actually have one Jul 11 19:21:35 hi Jul 11 19:22:32 does anyone have any ideia about the meaning of the last post by Harald "LaF0rge" Welte in openmoko planet Jul 11 19:23:43 trains, as tempting as it is to make up rumors, no Jul 11 19:24:08 only our fantasy as always Jul 11 19:24:14 presumably the stress of managing a manufacturing is getting to harald (who is, after all, a kernel hacker, not a project manager) Jul 11 19:24:33 maybe even the fact that it's all starting to happen Jul 11 19:25:14 i ordered a phone monday, and the strange thing is that they didn't charged my credit card yet Jul 11 19:25:21 is it normal? Jul 11 19:25:21 trains: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.) Jul 11 19:25:32 trains, i don't think they've charged anyone yet Jul 11 19:25:50 maybe it's all a joke Jul 11 19:25:53 some people will be delayed until the second batch, and they probably won't charge them until that's actually built Jul 11 19:25:55 usb on a phone Jul 11 19:25:56 never Jul 11 19:26:20 FIX shouldn't charge the credit card until the phone ships Jul 11 19:26:27 s'FIX'FIC' Jul 11 19:26:42 yeah, which won't happen until jul16 Jul 11 19:27:35 hum i get no mails from the mailinglist Jul 11 19:28:02 so i've lost a bunch of confidence in FIC based on harold's post. Jul 11 19:28:18 it's a little freaky Jul 11 19:28:48 the worst case is that some western vs. eastern communications problem means none of us will get our phones Jul 11 19:28:52 in the grand scheme of things, that's not too bad Jul 11 19:29:00 give it problems with the mailinglist? Jul 11 19:29:53 ... am I missing somehting obvious with my enulation... using Xnest, but all the graphics are missing and the font used too ... Jul 11 19:30:10 it's useable, proviced I'm telepathic Jul 11 19:30:20 s/proviced/provided/ Jul 11 19:30:20 ScaredyCat meant: it's useable, provided I'm telepathic Jul 11 19:31:05 wow, a substitution bot! Jul 11 19:31:13 s/bot/apt/ Jul 11 19:31:14 ferric meant: wow, a substitution apt! Jul 11 19:31:19 it's nice, isn't it? Jul 11 19:31:55 s/apt/bot/ Jul 11 19:32:07 heh Jul 11 19:32:19 s/heh/beh/ Jul 11 19:32:24 s/s/s/ Jul 11 19:32:25 s/@#$%^&*(*&^%$#@#$%^&*(*&^%$#@!@#$%^&*()/dfghj/ Jul 11 19:32:30 :) Jul 11 19:32:31 PARSE THAT Jul 11 19:32:53 <_llll_> presumably it only looks at the last thing you said Jul 11 19:33:02 yeah. Jul 11 19:33:09 like the last thing you said? Jul 11 19:33:14 s/.*/foo/ Jul 11 19:33:35 nice try :) Jul 11 19:33:44 but is it still working? Jul 11 19:33:53 s/working/alive/ Jul 11 19:33:54 ferric meant: but is it still alive? Jul 11 19:33:56 <_llll_> s/presumably// Jul 11 19:33:57 _llll_ meant: it only looks at the last thing you said Jul 11 19:34:33 <_llll_> s/it/apt/ Jul 11 19:34:35 _llll_ meant: presumably apt only looks at the last thing you said Jul 11 19:34:55 ah, nice. Jul 11 19:35:08 i guess the future for the neo is bleak. Jul 11 19:35:22 <_llll_> whyfor? Jul 11 19:35:59 unknown_lamer: yeah.. have you tried building openafs yet? Jul 11 19:36:05 * hozer has yet to get the toolchain going Jul 11 19:36:22 I wouldn't yet declare the future bleak. Although, to be honest, the death of the mailing lists shortly after the thing goes on sale is a little unsettling. Jul 11 19:36:44 <_llll_> wait, death of the mailing lists? what happened? Jul 11 19:36:49 _llll_: http://planet.openmoko.org Jul 11 19:36:53 hozer: openafs on openmoko? Jul 11 19:37:10 loufoque: I have been wanting to try that Jul 11 19:37:10 alUrdun_: they're still working for some people since there's activity in the archives. Jul 11 19:37:20 hozer: I don't have easy access to an arm device and am down to under a gig of free disk space so no room for the openmoko full on emulation environment Jul 11 19:37:24 hozer: look into Coda rather Jul 11 19:37:28 and the lack of a local afs share until I can grab my dual 500G drives Jul 11 19:37:39 loufoque: I did.. Jul 11 19:37:46 so has anyone used the trolltech greenphone? Jul 11 19:37:55 have you tried coda? Jul 11 19:38:02 I'm pretty sure coda isn't up to par yet Jul 11 19:38:11 we just got afs up at hcoop and the guy who set it up works at cmu Jul 11 19:38:12 woh, aggression? what? Jul 11 19:38:22 so if cmu still reccomends afs over coda still ... Jul 11 19:38:24 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Package_management]] [[User:Myfanwy]] [[Ipk]] [[Neo1973]] [[Ipkg]] [[Ruggedized]] [[Wish_List]] [[Talk:Dialer]] [[Wish_List_-_Hardware]] Jul 11 19:38:29 hozer: no Jul 11 19:38:30 and it's never going to be up to part without a larger development community Jul 11 19:38:43 hozer: there is intermezzo too Jul 11 19:38:48 ferric: i have one here Jul 11 19:38:53 loufoque: go try both of those Jul 11 19:38:59 then tell me if you still think so Jul 11 19:39:04 loufoque: does intermezzo do kerberos? Jul 11 19:39:07 ferric: Hmmm, a gmail-only-thing? Jul 11 19:39:07 high-rez: wat do you think of it? Jul 11 19:39:09 i have a greenphone Jul 11 19:39:19 alUrdun_: i hope not! although i'm on gmail as well Jul 11 19:39:27 s/wat/what Jul 11 19:39:29 s/wat/what/ Jul 11 19:39:30 ferric meant: s/what/what Jul 11 19:39:39 okay, trust me... intermezzo and coda are useless for any data you care about Jul 11 19:39:49 loufoque: cross-realming with afs makes life easier a lot of the time (e.g. add your local kerberos user to an acl at your web host and then just use cp to copy stuff instead of needing to ssh in and grab tickets there and tra la la la ) Jul 11 19:39:53 ljp: what do you think of it, as well? Jul 11 19:39:54 hozer: I haven't tried them because all network solutions I had to work with needed to scale to lots of computers, be stable and efficient. Jul 11 19:40:13 ferric: Well, I'm mostly disappointed. It's not a end-user device, but when I try to make a pdp context, the GPRS chip sends back an Error. It tries five times, and then qtopia crashes (i guess because they're not handling this right). Jul 11 19:40:14 they are neat research projects, but NOT usefull in any real-world application Jul 11 19:40:41 what they ARE usefull for is figuring out how to do disconnected operation, and then backport those concepts to the OpenAFS codebase Jul 11 19:40:44 unknown_lamer: you could use sshfs Jul 11 19:40:44 i like itm, but I am biased Jul 11 19:40:57 loufoque: difficult when your kerberos principles expire after an hour Jul 11 19:41:00 Hello! Jul 11 19:41:10 ljp: Yeah you are - when you guys gonna resolve my bug? ;)) Jul 11 19:41:10 it is too bad gp is so expensive Jul 11 19:41:36 Can you tell me on which networks can OpenMoko run? T-Mobile, Cosmote group ? Jul 11 19:41:37 act1v8: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.) Jul 11 19:41:39 hig-rez: send example code demonstrating it to me, and I will Jul 11 19:42:01 ljp: I sent the atchat log showing that the AT command results in an error... Jul 11 19:42:08 loufoque: you also still have to either login or store your password in a keytab somewhere vs simply letting the kerberos servers talk to each other and auth you with your local principle that you got from logging in Jul 11 19:42:24 activ8: It will, tmobile and cosmote are both gsm carriers. Jul 11 19:42:26 unknown_lamer: I think I met one of the hcoop guys at the last afs workhsop Jul 11 19:42:36 hozer: adam megacz? Jul 11 19:42:39 yeah Jul 11 19:42:46 he saved us from cclausen Jul 11 19:43:11 cclausen set everything up horribly non standard and then stormed out angrily because he hates free software nuts (and the coop is mostly comprised of us ...) Jul 11 19:43:24 oh geez Jul 11 19:43:35 it has been a very difficult seven months of setup now :-\ Jul 11 19:43:43 who else do you expect would be interested in a hosting coop than a bunch of free software nuts? ;) Jul 11 19:43:59 but we're *so close* (just have to get the main afs server to boot ... kerberos is unhappy when the master goes down and there isn't a slave lying around) Jul 11 19:44:36 ick.. do you have an hcoop channel on here? Jul 11 19:44:39 #hcoop Jul 11 19:45:22 gp is $700 yes? Jul 11 19:45:34 i think 600, or 650 Jul 11 19:45:38 well i'm sure the camera adds to that cost Jul 11 19:45:55 heh, afs Jul 11 19:46:03 I thought only IBM used that these days Jul 11 19:46:20 $695+s/h Jul 11 19:46:35 ferric: yes Jul 11 19:46:56 unknown_lamer: aren't there solutions to automatically renew tickets? Jul 11 19:47:24 loufoque: yeah, but that involves all sorts of funky setup vs reusing the existing auth infrastructure to Just Work (tm) Jul 11 19:48:09 <_llll_> ferric: as far as i can see, the mailing lists are still there, what's the actual problem? Jul 11 19:48:25 _llll_: i havent' received any email in the past 2 days. Jul 11 19:48:42 <_llll_> ok, but why's that a problem? Jul 11 19:48:57 <_llll_> i imagine people are busy working on the neo, rather than sending out messages Jul 11 19:49:01 it is a problem... because i would like to get list email? Jul 11 19:49:25 <_llll_> do you *know* there is email sent to the list that you havnt received? Jul 11 19:49:40 which list Jul 11 19:49:43 _llll_: oh aboslutely, i wouldn't mind getting a neo even if the list remained down, someone else thought that the list ws brought down right after launch as being suspicioous Jul 11 19:49:43 community? Jul 11 19:49:50 _llll_: yep - the webarchive has emails Jul 11 19:49:59 _llll_: the webarchive has an email saying there are no emails Jul 11 19:50:01 Hadaka: yes Jul 11 19:50:10 <_llll_> perhaps they have a technical issue, and no time to fix it with all the orders? Jul 11 19:50:17 unknown_lamer: by the way, would you happen to know how OpenAFS compares, in terms of performance, with NFSv4 on GNU/Linux ? Jul 11 19:50:24 loufoque: significantly faster Jul 11 19:50:38 _llll_: could be Jul 11 19:50:41 <_llll_> it is a HUGE stretch to call it suspicious. annoying or unprofessional perhaps Jul 11 19:50:45 _llll_: or they're going to fuck off and cancel all orders. Jul 11 19:50:57 i'm optimistic. :) Jul 11 19:51:13 <_llll_> perhaps, but until there is evidence for that i wouldnt spead such rumours Jul 11 19:51:33 _llll_: i'm not spreading anything, just wondering why the lsit went down. :) Jul 11 19:51:49 i said the future is bleak based on the insanity post on planet. Jul 11 19:52:01 <_llll_> the insanity post seems to me to be one guy over-worked Jul 11 19:52:23 <_llll_> http://gnumonks.org/~laforge/weblog/2007/06/28#20070628-openmoko_update seemed to be relevent Jul 11 19:53:14 well, he's talking about status updates and being so frustrated that he may cause physical violence. Jul 11 19:53:17 <_llll_> the fact is that they said the things would go on sale, and they started taking orders. sounds good so far Jul 11 19:53:31 agreed. Jul 11 19:53:58 <_llll_> that post doesnt mention any reason or the word "order", could be anything Jul 11 19:54:34 hrm, so GPRS *does* already work: https://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Manually_using_GPRS Jul 11 19:55:06 Read: Kernel Hacker having to play the bureaucracy game... Jul 11 19:55:10 yeah, maybe his wife is going to leave him Jul 11 19:55:20 or maybe they've lost aircodnitioning in the fic office! Jul 11 19:56:16 <_llll_> i do wonder if maybe they have slightly mishandled the pr thing, im not sure they have stressed how unready this thing is enough Jul 11 19:56:16 We definitely need some reassurance in the community. Jul 11 19:56:39 lll: some have, some don't Jul 11 19:57:06 oh they have screwed up the pr Jul 11 19:57:07 <_llll_> i just worry that all the major review sites will find it lacking and write it off too soon Jul 11 19:57:25 calling it the iphone killer is waaaaay too optimistc. Jul 11 19:57:28 fuck reassurance, i just need the device Jul 11 19:57:37 galexande: good point. Jul 11 19:57:42 <_llll_> yes, exactly Jul 11 19:58:12 they can write it off, as long as there's a strong dev community. Jul 11 19:58:17 we just need a hackable phone. Jul 11 19:58:24 they said the orders would start jul 9, they were right. they say the devices will ship jul16, that is enough reassurance for me. Jul 11 19:58:42 if i don't hear more by jul17, i'll be a little trepidated :) Jul 11 19:58:43 <_llll_> a lot of people wont hack on it unless there is assurance it will actually work Jul 11 19:58:46 3 Jul 11 19:59:00 actually sean said that customs delays might delay it a da y or two from jul16 Jul 11 19:59:05 ferric, yeah Jul 11 19:59:06 has anyone gotten their confirmation email yet? Jul 11 19:59:11 but by jul 17 he should say whether it is delayed or not :) Jul 11 19:59:14 paron_work: no Jul 11 19:59:21 <_llll_> if it gets to end of july and no phone and no update, then you might start worrying Jul 11 19:59:26 but today is jul 11, so if i were him i'd be as silent as he is :) Jul 11 19:59:28 <_llll_> until then, id say things are going on target Jul 11 19:59:30 but they're very overworked, so shrug Jul 11 20:00:10 it would be nice to have status though. 3000 1973's ordered, 1000 in customs, meat processor running to create another 2000 phones. Jul 11 20:01:58 Harald's blog post earlier was a little worrisome. Jul 11 20:02:35 the problem is that FIC has been... incommunicative in the past. Jul 11 20:03:08 ewon: lots of universities use afs. Jul 11 20:11:50 Is there a precompiled qemu package for 32bit ubuntu? Jul 11 20:12:24 Kain: obviously, yes. Jul 11 20:12:44 Well I mean the whole setup of openmoko, not just qemu Jul 11 20:12:51 LarstiQ: mine doesn't. If you give me good reasons though I might tell them to. Jul 11 20:13:10 pretty diagrams that explain a lot: https://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/OpenMoko Jul 11 20:13:42 loufoque: I just notice as a student. Jul 11 20:13:48 never asked the admins. Jul 11 20:13:55 oh shoot Jul 11 20:14:01 the webshop got updated Jul 11 20:14:09 now you can choose the color. Jul 11 20:14:13 when building qemu I get.... Jul 11 20:14:30 one sec Jul 11 20:14:52 Splash needs 'pngtopnm' and 'ppmtorgb3' - make sure that they're in $PATH. Jul 11 20:14:59 has anyone seen that? Jul 11 20:15:35 i think you need netpng or something like that Jul 11 20:15:40 LarstiQ: most admins I know would rather buy a black box that automatically does everything and where there is nothing to administer. Jul 11 20:15:46 devestate, hold on i'll find out Jul 11 20:15:53 kk thanks Jul 11 20:16:04 it happens during the flash process Jul 11 20:16:06 :P Jul 11 20:16:46 devestate: sudo apt-get install libpng netpbm Jul 11 20:17:01 ahh... thanks Jul 11 20:17:16 devestate, this is what i installed: sudo apt-get install netpbm Jul 11 20:17:36 as above, thanks gcb77_ Jul 11 20:17:57 loufoque: I know zero of such admins. Jul 11 20:18:29 Z hvm 4~4~1~3~ #1~1~1~1~1~1~1~1~1~1~1~1~1~1~1~1~1~1~1~1~1~1~1~1~1~3~3~3~3~3~3~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~ Jul 11 20:18:41 hihi Jul 11 20:19:45 woglinde: are you on your neo? :P Jul 11 20:20:46 or maybe a 2 year old got to his keyboard Jul 11 20:20:53 heh Jul 11 20:21:09 lol no my son was typing Jul 11 20:21:22 no he is 12 months Jul 11 20:21:34 :D Jul 11 20:21:49 haha Jul 11 20:21:55 does he grab the mouse and throw it on the ground? mine does Jul 11 20:21:56 4~3~4~30~1~13~4~1~1~~~~4~~ Jul 11 20:22:03 no Jul 11 20:22:09 you must not have a qwerty layout Jul 11 20:22:14 he takes the mouse in mouth Jul 11 20:23:15 original dec german keyboard Jul 11 20:23:23 openmoko: 03shoragan * r2378 10/trunk/oe/conf/site.conf: apr-1.2.7 is no longer available on http://www.apache.org/dist/apr/ Jul 11 20:23:47 4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~3~4~ Jul 11 20:24:40 whoa that's the first commit in 2 days?! Jul 11 20:24:49 apr-1.2.7 no longer available?! Jul 11 20:28:13 yet another pretty diagram: https://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/OpenMokoFramework Jul 11 20:30:27 question: if i want to build a single app, say the contacts-app, and then update the root image, how do i do that, do i need to make everything for that to work or can i "just" build app/install in fs/make fs/install image/run emu ... it's taking forever to test my setup here.... Jul 11 20:30:29 graphviz++ Jul 11 20:30:34 does anyone know how to get layers onto the openstreetmap? i mean like contour lines? Jul 11 20:30:56 possan, i'm convinced it's possible, but the only instructions you will find are http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/MokoMakefile, which rebuilds the whole damn shebang Jul 11 20:31:00 it's pretty slick, but it takes forever Jul 11 20:32:10 ok, but i've tried to make some simple/stupid changes to the contacts app and it's not visible in the emulation afterwards, do i need to clean some cache somewhere before rebuilding it? Jul 11 20:32:52 you need to rebuild first the app, then the flash image, then you need to "reflash" the emulator Jul 11 20:33:35 ok, make openmoko-devel-image, then make flash-qemu-local, then run-qemu right? Jul 11 20:34:26 and news on color choice Jul 11 20:35:09 ds1, put it in the comments field of the order form, or email orders@openmoko.com with your RT# in the subject and the choice in the body Jul 11 20:35:14 your choices are black/silver and orange/white Jul 11 20:35:24 thx Jul 11 20:35:35 glaexande: thx -- you are always on this channel Jul 11 20:35:46 galexande: do you work for fic Jul 11 20:35:49 hah no Jul 11 20:36:02 my dayjob involves too much boring reverse engineering of awful ibm data formats Jul 11 20:38:15 that does sound dull Jul 11 20:38:28 lol Jul 11 20:38:40 are you trying to make galexande feel happier? Jul 11 20:39:24 ferric: im sympathising with galexande :) Jul 11 20:39:38 .. Jul 11 20:39:54 hmm, what's with that latest posting from laf0rge? D: Jul 11 20:40:05 anrp, clearly stress is a factor Jul 11 20:41:37 seems a bit .. strong Jul 11 20:41:49 but then again i don't really know anything about the circumstances, so I can't comment Jul 11 20:42:50 i think everything is fine. Jul 11 20:42:56 they did update the orderpage as promised. Jul 11 20:43:48 mickey|bbl's comments early sugested stress, and just eh personality type of laf0rge Jul 11 20:43:58 s/eh/the Jul 11 20:44:02 s/eh/the/ Jul 11 20:44:04 summatusmentis meant: s/the/the Jul 11 20:44:05 fecks sake, the main battery in my laptop has died Jul 11 20:44:07 whoops Jul 11 20:44:09 :F Jul 11 20:44:25 it's what I get for getting batts off ebay I suppose Jul 11 20:44:40 you always want recently manuf'd lithium batts Jul 11 20:44:49 i think the after-market batteries on ebay may or may not be lying about their mAh, but they definitely do not usually meet the spec for continuous discharge Jul 11 20:44:56 probably Jul 11 20:45:04 but what phone loads it down with >=1C discharge? Jul 11 20:45:18 well, these are the batteries that failed quality check, probably :) Jul 11 20:45:23 so maybe >=.1C discharge :) Jul 11 20:45:29 that would be a bit of a problem Jul 11 20:46:14 the updated web form with color selection is nice to see. too bad the phone icon is black/silver in both cases. Jul 11 20:47:40 zilt... not reg'd with nickserv, one sec Jul 11 20:50:53 join/ irc://irc.oftc.net/#osm Jul 11 20:53:44 spam? Jul 11 20:53:47 unpossible! D: Jul 11 20:54:12 ok i feel better after logdiving and seeing what mickeyl said Jul 11 20:55:28 me too Jul 11 20:55:28 although i hope harold can get some rest Jul 11 20:55:36 and medication. Jul 11 20:55:37 (joke) Jul 11 20:55:45 (i was worried that it was from internal drama that had flared up) Jul 11 20:55:45 I don't have a lot, anyone have a link? Jul 11 20:56:01 nothing wrong with medication Jul 11 20:56:05 ethanol counts D: Jul 11 20:56:07 heh Jul 11 20:56:15 s/lot/log/ Jul 11 20:56:17 these guys have done a good job. Jul 11 20:56:17 jgm meant: I don't have a log, anyone have a link? Jul 11 20:56:33 jgm: link to what? Jul 11 20:56:52 (sigh) Jul 11 20:57:02 Hello! Jul 11 20:57:05 mickely's comments (unless someone can summarise) Jul 11 20:57:10 hi Jul 11 20:57:26 06:52 < mickeyl> nod thanks. laforge is in a critical situation. the best is to leave him alone when for a while. I have been working with him now for quite a while and the best thing is to allow him to focus on one task which then he is going to do 110% professional. This project has overmaxed him since all his skills were sucked by OM.... Jul 11 20:58:04 jgm: oh, I didn't know if you wanted what laf0rge had said. Jul 11 20:58:21 ferric: ta, that was what I was after Jul 11 20:58:32 I saw the blog post this morning Jul 11 20:58:43 Hopefully with the 'phone out in the open more people will be able to chip in and help Jul 11 20:58:55 Really, the topic should read. Don't be worried, stay patient. Jul 11 20:58:59 Will be motivated to. Jul 11 20:59:08 True Jul 11 20:59:13 Qemu just doesn't cut it for me Jul 11 20:59:23 * SpeedEvil puts up a link to a picture of a Neo, with 'Don't panic' written in friendly letters on it. Jul 11 20:59:36 :) Jul 11 21:00:32 haha Jul 11 21:00:44 touche, SpeedEvil Jul 11 21:00:52 does anyone remember the Agenda handheld? Jul 11 21:01:24 The micowriter? Jul 11 21:01:32 256/128K? Jul 11 21:01:36 Chording keyboard? Jul 11 21:01:58 no, it was a MIPS -based organizer that ran linux.. open source an dall Jul 11 21:02:13 Ah - I had the other agenda. Jul 11 21:02:17 but it was probably 3 years head of it's time Jul 11 21:02:23 * hozer can't type Jul 11 21:02:27 s/head/ahead/ Jul 11 21:02:28 hozer meant: but it was probably 3 years ahead of it's time Jul 11 21:09:17 hmpf. That wanna-be-doppler-shift doesn't really react linearly. :-| Jul 11 21:09:25 Sigh. Jul 11 21:10:57 would that be because tone is exponential to frequency? Jul 11 21:11:19 or the other way actually Jul 11 21:11:20 hey guys. i just read http://gnumonks.org/~laforge/weblog/2007/07/11/#20070711-insanity .. anyone know what's going on there? :( Jul 11 21:12:17 tuukkah - Okay... mathematically correctly: It does not react monotonically. ;) Jul 11 21:12:27 ... or more correctly. It's still wrongish. Jul 11 21:13:02 The default value (0) can't be wrong. going in one direction should make the signal better, the other direction should make it worse. Jul 11 21:13:07 Both directions make it worse. Jul 11 21:13:32 dw: no one except harald knows more than that. Just wait until there come announcements Jul 11 21:13:37 doppler shift makes signal better or worse? Jul 11 21:13:41 Hello, everyone. Jul 11 21:13:58 ...any idead what is going on with Harald? His last blog entry seemed quite...insane... Jul 11 21:14:06 pavelm: no one except harald knows more than that. Just wait until there come announcements Jul 11 21:14:21 bleh, passionate geeks, i suppose it's a good thing really. cheers Rince :) Jul 11 21:14:21 (could anyone please make a topic or so?) Jul 11 21:14:36 sorry, but I think Harald _will_ tell if there are any relevant news Jul 11 21:14:43 SpeedEvil: time for your gif, methinks Jul 11 21:14:46 yeah, dammit, I keep obsessing about this :P Jul 11 21:15:27 so there can be thousand of reasons for this posting. Since no one knows more - just wait. We can't do anything anyway ;) Jul 11 21:15:31 I just wanted to know if I can help somehow... Jul 11 21:16:15 pavelm - If you find out -- how to help -- let me know. Jul 11 21:16:55 Hi, ive got Yet Another ItDontWork Question :) Jul 11 21:17:06 pavelm: maybe write him a mail and ask :) Jul 11 21:17:09 let's order a phone, build openmoko in various ways, document that in the wiki, do testing, fix bugs found =) Jul 11 21:17:10 but don't expect an answer soon Jul 11 21:17:24 elrond: ok Jul 11 21:17:37 yeah - fill the wiki with ordered information ;) Jul 11 21:18:06 Rince, ordered as in ?-) Jul 11 21:18:12 i got the code from svn, it build fine and all. but when i run openmoko/flash.sh i get: Splash needs 'pngtopnm' and 'ppmtorgb3' - make sure they're in your $PATH Jul 11 21:18:14 structured ;) Jul 11 21:18:17 tuukkah - My patches are already waiting in bugzilla. Jul 11 21:18:20 what are these and where do i get them? Jul 11 21:18:20 mon: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.) Jul 11 21:18:23 pavelm: I'm sure most everyone here would be interested in helping if we can Jul 11 21:18:28 * hozer has to go clean up 7G of space somewhere... Jul 11 21:18:29 Rince, working on that atm =) Jul 11 21:18:45 tuukkah: last time I looked for how to build OpenMoko qwith qemu from scratch I needed thre diffferent websites Jul 11 21:18:56 yes I know I could do it by myself, but right now I have no time for it Jul 11 21:19:25 Elrond, cool. i think the best we can do is continue the work Jul 11 21:20:17 so.. put *everything* needed to build into a mercurial repository ;) Jul 11 21:20:38 ;) Jul 11 21:20:49 mokomakefile does a pretty good job Jul 11 21:20:50 mon, these are programs from the netpbm package. you get them in your Linux distribution Jul 11 21:20:53 hi all Jul 11 21:21:19 how is the hardware not end-user ready? Jul 11 21:21:28 anyone here know of the SMV video format? Jul 11 21:21:38 mon: install the 'netpbm' package. It contains these utilities Jul 11 21:22:09 tuukkah: you beat me to it, but I didn't see you had :) Jul 11 21:22:52 jseghers, nevermind, you gave instructions, i didn't ;-) Jul 11 21:23:08 hmm, so far i have yet to see a case where the FAQ aloril suggests actually answers the question a new person asks Jul 11 21:23:35 myk_, could you add some of those questions to the FAQ :-) Jul 11 21:24:10 http://www.aldi.ie/special_buys/product_2826.html <-- thinking of buying one of these, but it only plays .smvs Jul 11 21:24:17 tuukkah: jseghers: that seems to have fixed it. thanks :) Jul 11 21:24:19 tuukkah: i also have yet to see a question that is frequently asked :-) Jul 11 21:24:40 tuukkah: so far everyone's questions have been different (at least the ones they ask the first time) Jul 11 21:24:42 mon: no problem.. ran into the same problem myself initially Jul 11 21:24:52 myk_, excluding about the blog post you mean ?-) Jul 11 21:25:05 jseghers: maybe an idea to add it to the wiki then? sure we're not the only ones Jul 11 21:25:05 tuukkah: guess i didn't see that one Jul 11 21:26:25 (bah HSDPA not good on a train) Jul 11 21:26:27 mon, actually it is there somewhere. but add it to the place where you looked for it and didn't find :-) Jul 11 21:28:24 ewon, and for 50 bucks you'll get what you pay for :) Jul 11 21:28:42 means: poor display, poor quality, poor soundchip Jul 11 21:28:51 thomasg: indeed - think I'm going to end up writing my own smv convertor Jul 11 21:32:31 anyone have a mail address for michaelpo? I misspoke earlier 0 I shoiuld have pointed him to http://www.3gpp.org/ftp/Specs/html-info/27007.htm for the AT command set - though I don't think there are many changes Jul 11 21:32:50 anyone able to get to www.openembedded.org ? Jul 11 21:33:37 dcorking, but that's 3g and neo is 2g? Jul 11 21:33:58 noidd: it seems to die/get really slow about this time each night Jul 11 21:34:09 ok, good to know - thx Jul 11 21:34:51 . Jul 11 21:35:09 tuukkah: 3g and 2g are described in the same standard Jul 11 21:35:13 dcorking, i don't say i understand, i'm asking why the right one wouldn't be http://www.3gpp.org/ftp/Specs/html-info/0707.htm Jul 11 21:35:42 for example one of the additions in the recent is PTT Jul 11 21:36:13 Rel 7 is the latest GSM and UMTS standard Jul 11 21:36:19 seems a tad slow, but i'm running phone software on my mac. woohoo :) Jul 11 21:36:43 but many networks are probably on Rel-5 or Rel-6 Jul 11 21:36:57 dcorking, what about the chip in neo? Jul 11 21:37:11 everywhere is talk about GSM 07.07 Jul 11 21:38:43 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Wish_List_-_Hardware]] [[Gaming_docking_station]] [[Neo1973_Power_Management]] [[Stylus_mount]] [[Category:Diagram]] [[Image:Openmokoframework.png]] [[Image:Debugboard_v2_diagram.png]] [[User_talk:Cayco]] [[User:Cayco]] [[Category:Software]] and other changes Jul 11 21:40:55 tuukkah: afaict TS 07.07 was only kept current up to GSM R98, and from GSM R99 on the doc changed name from "AT Command set for GSM Mobile Equipment (ME) TS 07.07" to "AT command set for User Equipment (UE) TS 27.007" Jul 11 21:41:37 if you compare the 2 with open office, you won't see much difference Jul 11 21:41:59 i see, very good to know Jul 11 21:43:08 I don't know how well the handset/chipset manufacturers kept up with it - but in general they are fairly diligent about following recent standards Jul 11 21:44:22 which prompts me to ask - did the GSM chipset makers of Neo publish their tech manuals (esp the API) freely on the internet? if so where? Jul 11 21:44:37 No. Jul 11 21:44:54 NDA only to qualified vendors. Jul 11 21:45:05 (people who are going to buy a hundred thousand or more a year) Jul 11 21:45:14 business as usual :) Jul 11 21:46:03 so the 3GPP specs are what we have to go on (and source code written by FIC employees) - but that should be a pretty good combination Jul 11 21:46:05 dcorking: how does OOo's document compare to Word's? Jul 11 21:46:21 err... document compare, compare to Word's Jul 11 21:46:51 Stephmw: Micro$oft Word ? dunno - don't have that on this laptop Jul 11 21:47:00 ?? Jul 11 21:47:12 *wrong chan* Jul 11 21:47:47 dcorking: shame, I was curious.... I'll have a go at work tomorrow ;) Jul 11 21:47:47 /m SpeedEvil so did FIC get 3GPP specs then? Jul 11 21:47:51 heh Jul 11 21:47:55 Stephmw: I haven't used the two side by side on the same documents, but they seem equally fast, if the UI on OOo seems a little more clunky Jul 11 21:48:45 hozer: 3GPP specs are copyright 3GPP, but they are free to read on the web - see the link I gave above Jul 11 21:49:48 right.. I was wondering more if FIC/OpenMoko had gotten the specs for the GSM modem under NDA Jul 11 21:50:30 Probably yes. Jul 11 21:50:45 Stephmw: managed to cut my build time down to 308 minutes..... Jul 11 21:50:55 The problem with that is that they need rewritten in a form outside teh NDA, by core staff. Jul 11 21:51:25 They however do not give anyone details of the modem internals - how to flash it, for example. Jul 11 21:51:33 right Jul 11 21:52:06 ScaredyCat: it'd be interesting if OE had a build logging functionality Jul 11 21:52:15 the youtube videos are fantastic Jul 11 21:52:32 yes... it's somewhat annoying atm Jul 11 21:52:39 ??? Jul 11 21:52:41 so FIC don't flash it in their factory? it comes pre-flashed and can't be upgraded by FIC or a network? they must be pretty confident of not not needing to ship updates Jul 11 21:52:48 what you mean with logging? Jul 11 21:53:14 woglinde: logging build times, host specs, etc Jul 11 21:53:20 dcorking: you shouldn't need ot access the uboot-stuff, for everything else you just can use the normal upgrade-procedure Jul 11 21:53:23 woglinde: with optional push to a public server Jul 11 21:53:24 well, I expect someone would provide a binary-only GSM modem flash utility Jul 11 21:54:01 if you are python expert it should be no problem to integrate it Jul 11 21:54:04 hozer: but then that would leave a blob open to disassembly - perhaps not what the chipmaker wants Jul 11 21:54:15 in bitbake Jul 11 21:54:42 dcorking: I don't know about this specific case, but I've known blobs to be encrypted Jul 11 21:54:53 dcorking: and on-chip certificates used to decrypt Jul 11 21:55:20 They reportedly don't want to release the flash. Jul 11 21:55:25 flashing tool. Jul 11 21:55:36 IIRC. Jul 11 21:55:45 It's been stated that FIC do have a windows flashing tool;. Jul 11 21:55:49 i guess that is their perogative Jul 11 21:55:52 It is _not_ for distribution though. Jul 11 21:57:03 i never heard of phones having to go back to the factory - so i don't imagine it is anything to worry about Jul 11 21:57:19 One of the major makers recently had a recall IIRC. Jul 11 21:57:25 I forget what it was. Jul 11 21:57:27 oh :( Jul 11 21:57:50 is there a definitive, well-formatted (possibly tabular) feature list somewhere? i haven't seen one Jul 11 21:57:58 are there pictures of the two different colours of Neo? Jul 11 21:58:00 just got a bounce from sales@openmoko.com 'Remote host said: 451 Could not complete sender verify callout' Jul 11 21:58:03 any openmoko insider around? Jul 11 21:58:05 Siemens allows people to flash their phones at home... including gsm chips. Jul 11 21:58:11 fearphage: features of openmoko or features of the hardware? Jul 11 21:58:34 dcorking: there's one instance of a mass recall by Nokia... the 6600 Jul 11 21:58:45 dcorking: they can't have been pleased Jul 11 21:58:45 hi pavelm Jul 11 21:58:47 pavelm: wow! i guess siemens make their own silicon Jul 11 21:58:55 openmoko Jul 11 21:58:58 siemns is dead Jul 11 21:59:02 siemens Jul 11 21:59:10 Sony Erricsonshould have recalled the p910i.. Jul 11 21:59:13 wog: mostly dead by now, yes. Jul 11 21:59:14 it's shite Jul 11 21:59:22 ScaredyCat: aye! Jul 11 21:59:27 ScaredyCat: the software's unstable Jul 11 21:59:29 dcorking, added 3gpp here: https://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/GSM#GSM_07.07_-_Main_AT_commands Jul 11 21:59:33 benq stealed the ip's Jul 11 21:59:35 ip Jul 11 21:59:43 siemens make a nice cordless SIP/POTS phone that I am interested in Jul 11 21:59:46 benq bought them :-) Jul 11 21:59:48 I hate mine Stephmw.... Jul 11 22:00:13 pavelm not really Jul 11 22:00:18 ScaredyCat: I'm kinda surviving... PuTTY makes it up Jul 11 22:00:20 I mean who in their right mind builds a phone with an os that will *require* a reboot... Jul 11 22:00:22 tuukkah: thanks Jul 11 22:00:39 to cloe applications Jul 11 22:00:42 close Jul 11 22:00:45 wog: I'm pretty sure benq bought their "mobile phones" division. That's why it is selling "benq siemens" phones now. Jul 11 22:00:51 no Jul 11 22:01:01 "benq siemens" is dead Jul 11 22:01:27 ok... Jul 11 22:01:28 woglinde: do new benq models use any siemens ip? Jul 11 22:01:35 benq took the intelactual property and let go the the subfirm down Jul 11 22:01:39 ScaredyCat: there's a freeware task manager around Jul 11 22:01:39 did anyone got gpsd to run? Jul 11 22:01:54 now benq produces the phones at home Jul 11 22:02:04 I'm doing some hacks with gllin, but "proper" gps support would be nice. Jul 11 22:02:13 got a url Stephmw? Jul 11 22:02:21 dcorking: the phones feature list Jul 11 22:02:29 dcorking yes they do Jul 11 22:02:46 fearp: Teh Neo1973 page on the wiki Jul 11 22:03:04 ScaredyCat: http://3lib.ukonline.co.uk/nonagsuiq.htm Jul 11 22:03:45 i guess benq buy chips from siemens too Jul 11 22:03:50 ScaredyCat: scroll down to TaskSpy Jul 11 22:03:58 but that is probably a trade secret Jul 11 22:04:23 excellent thanks Stephmw Jul 11 22:05:22 does it have the capactiy to be gsm and cdma? Jul 11 22:05:43 No. Jul 11 22:05:49 Not this model at least. Jul 11 22:05:50 fearphage no Jul 11 22:05:56 cdma is only US Jul 11 22:06:02 nobody other wnats it Jul 11 22:06:07 not so Jul 11 22:06:09 gsm is all over everywhere else Jul 11 22:06:14 cdma is also in Afganistan and Iraq Jul 11 22:06:19 according to here benq have dual-mode wifi phones on the way: http://www.umatoday.com/mobileHandsets.php Jul 11 22:06:22 they Do have cdma in EU, though its not popular Jul 11 22:06:24 SpeedEvil - Currently my ideas on this gps thingy are empty... If you have some non-hardware suggestions, I'm open for most things. :) Jul 11 22:06:28 noidd hehe than go to iraq Jul 11 22:06:33 noidd: you mean the US? Jul 11 22:06:36 Elrond: /me is waiting for hardware. Jul 11 22:06:42 US telcos sold their re-conditioned cdma equipment to those countries Jul 11 22:06:58 * Stephmw nods Jul 11 22:06:59 cdma also in other parts of the americas and caribbean - and a few other spots with good US connections Jul 11 22:07:02 woglinde: there are SO many other countries that do cdma, you are crazy! Jul 11 22:07:03 love the lock-in Jul 11 22:07:09 hm wasnt siemens made the cellnet in afgahnistan? Jul 11 22:07:15 they are to lazy to change the old technology, because its expensive Jul 11 22:07:17 I wondet they took cdma Jul 11 22:07:22 but it is a tiny fraction of the 2 billion GSM handsets Jul 11 22:07:23 of course gprs is superior Jul 11 22:07:27 isn't helio cdma? its universal i thought Jul 11 22:07:29 dcorking: exactly Jul 11 22:07:38 CDMA is useful for long distance, few masts Jul 11 22:07:43 i know helio uses sprint networks. i would assume that means cdma Jul 11 22:07:44 who is helio? Jul 11 22:07:53 the lamest company EVER Jul 11 22:08:01 http://www.helio.com/ Jul 11 22:08:16 there slogan is "don't call us a phone company. don't call it a phone" Jul 11 22:08:21 their Jul 11 22:08:26 SpeedEvil - Well, sphyrna has some analysis tools for the strace's of gllin. ;-) Jul 11 22:08:36 they made the helio ocean which is a nice phone Jul 11 22:09:00 i was looking at the htc mogul before i heard about the openmoko http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,1895,2151150,00.asp Jul 11 22:09:11 you can get dual-mode cdma and gsm phones afaik Jul 11 22:09:40 how do you use a cdma phone? Jul 11 22:09:48 what's the equivalent of the GSM SIM card? Jul 11 22:10:27 i think the project would benefit from a less programmer-centered feature list like the one on that page. just straight features in a table that you can compare side-by-side with something else Jul 11 22:10:45 pjz: there is no equivalent Jul 11 22:10:46 pjz: there isn't an equivalent Jul 11 22:10:46 on helio's website they only mention a 'nationwide network' I am guess the nation is the US Jul 11 22:11:24 If there's no equivalent, what good is a dual-mode phone? or.. .how do you program a phone to use your account? Jul 11 22:11:45 pjz - there is some stuff about that on wikipedia - but often the subscriber info is just pre-flashed into the phone before it is shipped to you Jul 11 22:12:05 pjz - a dualmode phone has a SIM slot :) Jul 11 22:12:11 helio's claim to fame is builtin myspace stuff. (which i hate) Jul 11 22:12:36 ugh. sorry, I'll have to look it up later.. I"m on irc via my cheapo phone Jul 11 22:12:46 pjz: cool Jul 11 22:13:33 s/there is some stuff about that on wikipedia/i am going beyond the limits of my knowledge/ Jul 11 22:13:40 pjz: cdma phones can be quad-mode. they can roam to gsm networks. i'm not sure of how the internals of that work though. they have digital and analog modes on the cdma network as well Jul 11 22:14:13 ick. the thing that's coolest to me about GSM is that there's a SIM that I can move from one phone to another and the new phone becomes 'mine' Jul 11 22:14:18 which explains why north american phones are so large, with such huge batteries Jul 11 22:14:27 fear: This is programmer-centered project for now. Jul 11 22:14:47 pavelm: i see. that would explain a lot. Jul 11 22:15:10 so i can't buy this right now and use it with 0 knowledge of linux or how it works? Jul 11 22:15:15 No Jul 11 22:15:18 Absolutely not. Jul 11 22:15:20 elrond: Jul 11 22:15:24 ok, didn't know it was at that level Jul 11 22:15:32 Look on the second paragraph of the main page of the wiki. Jul 11 22:15:37 i thought going live meant public consumption Jul 11 22:15:47 It says "this is not a usable phone yet" Jul 11 22:15:51 elrond: so... are there any news on that gps thingy? Jul 11 22:15:55 fearphage: this says it all, http://www.vanille-media.de/site/index.php/2007/07/11/neo-1973-phase-1-started/ Jul 11 22:15:59 no, going live means developer-ready Jul 11 22:16:01 fearphage no but more people help getting it in shape Jul 11 22:16:06 fearphage: there's 'public' and 'mass market' Jul 11 22:16:13 argh! is the order page coming up blank for anyone else? Jul 11 22:16:15 public release is GTA02 in october Jul 11 22:16:19 ok Jul 11 22:17:02 so that changes things a lot in my decision making. i'm versed somewhat in linux but not well enough to develop for it yet.. especially not on a driver level Jul 11 22:17:04 pavelm - Only that I got a strange linear formular for deducing one param from another for the satelite-setup. Jul 11 22:17:17 public release = mass market? Jul 11 22:17:17 pavelm - But I don't know, what these params do. Jul 11 22:17:49 so yeah, order page not working. :( Jul 11 22:17:50 fearphage: that's a problem... some people seem to use the terms interchangeably Jul 11 22:18:00 elrond: I guess I should look at wiki? Jul 11 22:18:01 fearphage: I think one of the FIC guys said recently that you should not buy the GTA01 for your main phone Jul 11 22:18:11 fearphage: right now its great for development but not a functional / reliable phone. Jul 11 22:18:11 fearphage: mass-market == non-developer specific Jul 11 22:18:22 pavelm - It's not yet in the wiki, only in the decoder sources. Jul 11 22:18:34 although I did dream last night that I accidentally called 911 (112/999 etc) on it Jul 11 22:18:35 the implications are huge but i don't know what the time constraints are. i am in the market for a phone now :-\ Jul 11 22:18:37 fearphage: hell, I'm a developer, but I'll wait for the mass-market one Jul 11 22:18:51 orospakr: use 'ON' for the province Jul 11 22:18:53 get a cheap PAYG phone in the meantime :) Jul 11 22:19:01 zilt: heh, thanks. :) Jul 11 22:19:06 me too, but mostly because the hardware is gong to change Jul 11 22:19:08 fearphage: pay as you go == no contracts. Also, any GSM network means you can switch the SIM back and forward when you want to Jul 11 22:19:09 pavelm - I was hoping for it being the dopplper shift and playing with it would make signals soo much better. But to no avail. I'm currently a bit pissed. ;o) Jul 11 22:19:24 zilt: you are clearly psychic. :) Jul 11 22:19:26 well the public is generally referring to the masses. "open to the public" - anyone can come in. "public places" - anyone can be there Jul 11 22:19:41 hi Jul 11 22:19:46 noidd: yeah, that's a concern. Places that typically develop call-control software have developer-test basestations Jul 11 22:20:05 i am aware how gsm works. i've been with sprint since 2000 because for a long time they had the best phones and now my plan is just insanely good Jul 11 22:20:13 zilt: will standard shipping be appropriate for Canada? Jul 11 22:20:17 mickeyl! :-) Jul 11 22:20:20 hey mickeyl Jul 11 22:20:29 elrond: And do we know what the signals mean? Jul 11 22:20:32 * Stephmw pounces on mickeyl, gotcha! Jul 11 22:20:34 orospakr: I had the same problem on Sunday - tried for an hour till someone mentioned using short form and capitalized letters for the state/province. Jul 11 22:20:35 hi, mickeyl! Jul 11 22:21:01 Sprint coverage in Charlotte NC is aweful. Cingular / AT&T really are the only realistic choice Jul 11 22:21:02 hi mickeyl Jul 11 22:21:06 orospakr: dunno - $15 vs $60 Jul 11 22:21:23 good evening Jul 11 22:21:23 if the GTA02 hardware was the same as GTA0q I would have ordered one already Jul 11 22:21:34 pjz: GTA0q? Jul 11 22:21:46 Greetings Dr Mickey, how goes the battle? Jul 11 22:21:51 wifi is just too much to miss out on though. GTA02 Jul 11 22:21:59 pavelm - I still assume correlation data. Jul 11 22:23:09 what can the phone do without plan/activation? i'm still teetering :) Jul 11 22:23:09 will openmoko's package manager download updates similarly to apt? Jul 11 22:23:13 mickeyl: any idea 'officially' of how many have been sold so far - or how many orders. Jul 11 22:23:27 fearphage: it's basically a linux X box. Jul 11 22:23:30 bmk789: yes Jul 11 22:23:38 fearphage: GPS+bluetooth+touchscreen+USB Jul 11 22:23:43 wait, isn't this buildable/usable without the phone? Jul 11 22:23:49 oh. Jul 11 22:23:50 fearphage: i look at the neo as a linux PDA with a gsm module Jul 11 22:24:00 yea, i'm looking for a smart phone Jul 11 22:24:01 yes, you can build it and run it on your PC. Jul 11 22:24:12 hmmm i may do that to get my feet wet Jul 11 22:24:13 Hi all! Jul 11 22:24:19 What about neo and accessiblity? Jul 11 22:24:19 mrkiko: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.) Jul 11 22:24:20 elrond: what correlation data? So you know where hh passes bits from sattelites? Jul 11 22:24:26 mrkiko: not yet Jul 11 22:24:28 is there an emulator to get the phone-centric interface of it all? Jul 11 22:24:38 fearphage: yes Jul 11 22:24:40 faq? Jul 11 22:24:41 See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ Jul 11 22:24:42 fearphage: see the wiki. Jul 11 22:24:51 k Jul 11 22:24:52 mrkiko: accessability as in sight or sound? Jul 11 22:24:55 pavelm - The bare correlation data. integrated thingies. Jul 11 22:24:58 blind or deaf Jul 11 22:25:14 noidd: ok so far Jul 11 22:25:16 elrond: Aha, basically telling you the phase of the particular sattelite? Jul 11 22:25:23 elrond: do you know where that is passed? Jul 11 22:25:27 noidd: deaf would be a challenge Jul 11 22:25:29 SpeedEvil: i don't know the numbers Jul 11 22:25:32 bbiab Jul 11 22:25:46 basically... gta01 display is so bad we'd better treat everyone as blind :-) Jul 11 22:25:47 pavelm - Well, I guess, it's the 23 packet data. Jul 11 22:25:48 thank you all. good day Jul 11 22:25:51 Stephen: actually, deaf is really easy. You just make it the best data-phone Jul 11 22:25:59 pavelm - It just looks much like correlation data. Jul 11 22:26:02 noidd: yeah, sorry, I meant deaf+blind Jul 11 22:26:17 Stephen: Hiptop / T-Mobile "Sidekick" is by far the strongest contender in the deaf market Jul 11 22:26:21 noidd: getting late here, and I'm still writing test specs :( Jul 11 22:26:37 I could even show you the sign language sign for it - its cute since it shows the thing flipping open and closed. Jul 11 22:26:56 noidd: ha. amazing. Jul 11 22:26:56 pavelm - next I'll backup the thing and then try gllin on it. Jul 11 22:27:05 elrond: Does gps chip actually talk to you? Jul 11 22:27:10 pavelm - Just to make sure, that the gps chip still works. Jul 11 22:27:24 elrond: Like, can you start scanning particular from your python code? Jul 11 22:27:24 pavelm - Yes, I get tons of data from it. Jul 11 22:27:41 yeah "Sidekick" sign is pretty much the sign for data-cellphone now. In much the same way as "Kleenex" or "Xerox" is in American english. Jul 11 22:27:44 pavelm - I have a GUI to select the PRN, etc. Jul 11 22:28:00 elrond: Nice... packet 23 being correlation data... why is it variable sized? Jul 11 22:28:06 elrond: Is there the code somewhere? Jul 11 22:28:33 my minor dev and debug attempts have all been pretty failurepriffic, though I did manage to get qemu up and running it using MokoMakefile Jul 11 22:28:37 pavelm - Because the software can request different lengths. Probbly to better analyse it. Jul 11 22:29:09 i just read http://directorblue.blogspot.com/2007/07/whats-hidden-in-iphones-fine-print.html , and they seem to really bite their customers' asses really hard!! I guess the conclusion is that most people never care to read the fine print as long as they get something glossy/hyped. Jul 11 22:29:27 elrond: It is expected to have 1024 or so correlators, no? Packets seem too short for that... Jul 11 22:29:42 It probably reports peaks only Jul 11 22:29:43 most people never care to read the fine print, period Jul 11 22:29:45 look at facebook for a good example of that Jul 11 22:30:00 true. Jul 11 22:30:03 tuukkah: I notice that the openmoko sources refer to the standard as 0707 (for example developers/seanchiang/gsm/include/gsmd/ts0707.h ) and I have no idea what the relationship between 3GPP and ETSI is :) Jul 11 22:30:07 speed: Packet 23 is array of 16-bit integers. For peaks, I'd expect 10-bit integer followed by 16-bit. Jul 11 22:30:25 lol double charging wtf is this? Jul 11 22:30:26 noidd: how so? Jul 11 22:30:29 Maybe. Jul 11 22:30:33 so I think we are better to stick with talking about 0707 - at least people will understand us Jul 11 22:30:40 dcorking, that's what i was trying to say :-) Jul 11 22:30:41 can someone remind me if GTA02 will have EDGE? Jul 11 22:30:43 in europe they would fart on apple Jul 11 22:30:54 pjz: nope Jul 11 22:31:12 woglinde: it's crazyness! I'm so looking forward to be getting my OpenMoko-running Neo :) Jul 11 22:31:13 pavelm - These are 12 bits really. And it has a maximum. I plotted it. So the guess is: These are few values around the peak. Jul 11 22:31:19 pavelm: 10 bit integer + 16 bit won't quite work - you will end up in some cases with the peak falling in between the correlators. I suspect 2048 correlators. Jul 11 22:31:21 no 3G either i assume Jul 11 22:31:26 dcorking, that's why put in the question Jul 11 22:31:27 tuukkah: i think that is what you wrote in the wiki too - it is all good Jul 11 22:31:42 ok :-) Jul 11 22:31:58 bmk789: correct Jul 11 22:32:24 night all Jul 11 22:32:32 see ya dcorking Jul 11 22:32:33 whats preventing EDGE or 3G from being implemented? Jul 11 22:32:44 who cares about 3G when you can run doom on it, dammit :) Jul 11 22:32:55 elrond: Wow... please write it to the wiki :-) Jul 11 22:33:08 elrond: Do you have the code somewhere? Jul 11 22:33:12 bmk789: buying and integrating a 3G chipset :) Jul 11 22:33:24 bmk789: cost, afaik, as well as likely drivers Jul 11 22:33:34 pavelm - My display app: Not yet. It's a horrible hack. I slowly factor it out into sphyrna code. Jul 11 22:33:54 i know theres linux drivers for some EVDO cards Jul 11 22:34:02 bmk789: and the fact that 3G is pretty area-oriented, that is, different areas of the world use different 3G cards Jul 11 22:34:09 and EVDO is CDMA, not GSM Jul 11 22:34:11 afaik Jul 11 22:34:24 yup Jul 11 22:34:42 i know but if EVDO can be used in linux i would think some 3G chipsets would have drivers Jul 11 22:34:52 summatusmentis is right. EDGE and UMTS are the 3G evolutions of GSM - but not in Neo phones yet Jul 11 22:34:59 bmk789: totally different technologies Jul 11 22:35:00 er EDGE is 2.75 G Jul 11 22:35:10 jupp Jul 11 22:35:20 i used a verizon evdo pc card that was like serial via USB via PCI via PC Card Jul 11 22:35:21 GPRS->EDGE Jul 11 22:35:34 id call it 2.5001 Jul 11 22:35:35 tv yes Jul 11 22:36:12 I think all you have to say to make your iphone buddies jealous is 'open source' and 'twice the screensize' Jul 11 22:36:18 don-o: if you are egyptian that question is worth about 2 billion pounds :) Jul 11 22:36:49 'twice the screensize' <- I don't think so ;) Twice the resolution maybe Jul 11 22:37:13 Twice the startuptime Jul 11 22:37:14 well, but iphone buddies won't know the difference :-) Jul 11 22:37:15 try "four times the pixels" or something like that Jul 11 22:37:18 a vodaphone 3G card has linux drivers Jul 11 22:37:20 fin, 'twice the desktop size' then :) Jul 11 22:37:31 haven't checked what the actual pixel counts are Jul 11 22:37:38 bmk789: PCMCIA? Jul 11 22:37:53 summatusmentis: still looking Jul 11 22:38:03 summatusmentis its cardbus Jul 11 22:38:12 woglinde: ok, yeah Jul 11 22:38:35 but there is one firm it seems they have pcmcia cards Jul 11 22:38:43 bmk789: well, regardless, there's still a higher cost involved, and the differences in 3G solutions in different areas of the world Jul 11 22:38:44 but I dont know it anymore Jul 11 22:38:48 twice the pixels, twice the fun. Jul 11 22:39:08 wait Jul 11 22:39:13 you can do evdo over usb! Jul 11 22:39:18 don-o: Actually, it is more than twice the fun. Jul 11 22:39:23 * summatusmentis lives in places where 3G doesn't exist yet, so he doesn't care that muh about it Jul 11 22:39:34 blindcoder: Nice getting the app built. :D Jul 11 22:39:38 don-o: If decoding binary protocols and hacking the phone over ssh is your idea of fun :-) Jul 11 22:39:46 blindcoder: Hope you updated the wiki too... *poke* ;) Jul 11 22:40:08 * CM is happy with the Dropkick Murphys concert Jul 11 22:40:09 pavelm: disneyland can't hold a candle to that kind of fun :) Jul 11 22:40:32 cm I think he is at sleep Jul 11 22:40:43 elrond: So you can produce correlation peaks using your python software? Jul 11 22:40:54 elrond: Do they go away when you tune sattelite that is not there? Jul 11 22:40:57 pavelm - Somewhat, not really. Jul 11 22:41:01 bbl Jul 11 22:41:09 pavelm - (there's a query for you open) Jul 11 22:41:43 pavelm - They've worse signal for sats, that are not there, but even that is only marginal. All that confuses me. Jul 11 22:42:49 "there's a query for you open" -- sorry, I do not understand Jul 11 22:43:01 I'm almost tempted to make a GPS satellite. Jul 11 22:43:06 It's not _that_ hard. Jul 11 22:43:17 elrond: That's seriously strange. I'd expect non-present sattelites to produce white noise... Jul 11 22:43:33 pavelm - Right, I do expect the same. Jul 11 22:43:43 pavelm - query == private notices on irc. Jul 11 22:43:57 And it means that you can do nice things like have the thing in a screened box, with the transmitter, and sweep slowly in frequency Jul 11 22:44:05 elrond: Or maybe the receiver is so miss-tuned that we see noise for regular sattelites, too? Jul 11 22:44:28 elrond: hmm, how do I get to that query? Jul 11 22:44:32 pavelm: CDMA means that regular satellites appear as broadband noise Jul 11 22:44:51 pavelm: s/uncorrelated/broadband/ Jul 11 22:45:09 pavelm: as does any satellite with a PRN different from the one you're looking at. Jul 11 22:45:38 This has probably been asked many times over: Any news on Laforge's blog post? Jul 11 22:46:11 Micke yl commented on it. Jul 11 22:46:17 He's basically been working too hard. Jul 11 22:46:24 Kensan - No. Jul 11 22:46:42 * Stephmw understands where laf0rge is coming from :( Jul 11 22:46:45 Kensan: No other news. Jul 11 22:47:28 Don't Panic! Jul 11 22:47:30 :) Jul 11 22:47:41 whoa, i musta missed that blog post Jul 11 22:47:51 when did he post it? Jul 11 22:48:08 I am just a bit concerned since he is without a doubt crucial to openmoko and I thought he could get some rest now that the orders are out the door... Jul 11 22:48:20 They aren't out the door. Jul 11 22:48:36 The orders have been taken, but there is lots of work to actually do to get it out ht edoor. Jul 11 22:48:37 they're out the FIC door, just not into the Fremont door Jul 11 22:48:41 The orders are, not the phones though ;) Jul 11 22:48:46 SpeedEvil: oh rly? Jul 11 22:48:46 Kensan: you're not the only once concerned, belive me :-) Jul 11 22:49:06 don-o: the orders are taken - but not processed. Jul 11 22:49:19 don-o: the phones have not arrived in the US ready to be shipped out. Jul 11 22:49:49 SpeedEvil: right but i thought i read the phones had been shipped from FIC and are in progress to reach Fremont on the 16th Jul 11 22:50:01 Something like that. Jul 11 22:58:27 Stephmw, what is laf0rge talking about? Jul 11 22:58:40 orzo: he's just overworked Jul 11 22:58:51 orzo: burnout, probably Jul 11 22:59:40 * Stephmw has felt like that Jul 11 23:00:40 blindcoder: Quit sleeping so much.. :P (woglinde said you were.. ;)) Jul 11 23:00:55 ~seen blindcoder Jul 11 23:00:57 blindcoder is currently on #openmoko (2d 9h 14m 38s). Has said a total of 531 messages. Is idling for 3h 48m 7s, last said: 'galexande: now have fun editing/adding packages until I put up the steps I did tomorrow :D'. Jul 11 23:01:21 yeah, look like he's sleeping Jul 11 23:03:53 still waiting Jul 11 23:04:14 galexande: waiting on what? Jul 11 23:04:18 what are we waiting on? Jul 11 23:04:47 he's just deadlocked Jul 11 23:06:45 what's RT? Jul 11 23:07:00 is that open source ecommerce software? Jul 11 23:07:20 RT may be Request Tracker Jul 11 23:07:53 i'm refering to the auto response from ordering a neo1973 Jul 11 23:08:15 It'll be interesting to see if zecke's is able to provoke a Trolltech-ported Qtopia+libs to the Neo1973. I hope they'll do it. To me I don't understand why Trollt^HHHHHHLorn at Trolltech is complaining so much as the Neo1973 should be just a good piece of hardware to promote the use of Qtopia as the Greenphone. Jul 11 23:08:16 it comes from "Web Shop via RT" Jul 11 23:08:29 mickeyl: it is. From the Email-Header: "Managed-by: RT 3.4.1 (http://www.bestpractical.com/rt/)" Jul 11 23:09:10 but I guess that if Trolltech won't do it, someone else will make a Qtopia-based distro/package set for it. Jul 11 23:09:36 i've nver used any open phone platform Jul 11 23:10:50 s/just a/a just as/ etc. Jul 11 23:11:01 maybe I have already been planning it :) Jul 11 23:11:18 i didn't think qtopia was totally open? Jul 11 23:11:18 pmhaddad: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.) Jul 11 23:11:50 test? Jul 11 23:11:50 only things not open DRM, SXE and phone libs Jul 11 23:12:13 ljp, well iirc it's not gpl'd Jul 11 23:12:20 it is Jul 11 23:12:23 oh Jul 11 23:12:26 well cool then Jul 11 23:12:27 just not those Jul 11 23:12:30 parts Jul 11 23:12:32 aevin: Trolltech also has a Philips WiFi phone that runs their stuff http://blog.tmcnet.com/blog/tom-keating/voip/philips-vp5500-wifi-voip-phone-launches.asp Jul 11 23:12:50 summatusmentis: And like he'll add the steps to the wiki tomorrow. I'll give them a try later on and see if I can get something compiled Jul 11 23:13:06 ljp, yeah cause i was looking at the greenphone, and you had to dl it with a license... Jul 11 23:13:25 which i just assumed meant it wasn't as open as i'd hoped Jul 11 23:13:33 if you choose gpl, thats the license :) Jul 11 23:13:55 linux_galore: yes, so I don't understand why they rather go with the flow and exploit the freedom and openness of the Neo hardware to push Qtopia-based solutions onto it as well. I kind of thought they wanted Qtopia to be as close to everywhere as possible. Jul 11 23:14:03 there is also another qtopia voip phone. one on skypes shop Jul 11 23:15:03 but I guess what they're worried about is that GTK+ and others will give them competition. Jul 11 23:15:14 well, openmoko and the neo1973 really make me wish i had $300 :P Jul 11 23:15:45 I wish they'll ship my order soon.. Still waiting for some kind of confirmation mail. Jul 11 23:15:49 competition is good Jul 11 23:15:54 Only 2 weeks until my vacation.. Jul 11 23:16:16 ljp: Many people here seem to want qt running on the Neo :) Jul 11 23:16:16 and the more open source, the better Jul 11 23:16:32 of course! Jul 11 23:16:49 * summatusmentis wants a neo first Jul 11 23:16:57 meh, i've developed in QT and wasn't too impressed Jul 11 23:17:01 maybe qtopia will run on openmoko Jul 11 23:17:15 pmhaddad: depends what other stuff you've used Jul 11 23:17:27 now if they had a mobile version of GTK+.... :) Jul 11 23:17:29 * CM has only used gtk so far.. Jul 11 23:18:04 well, i personally believe it doesnt make sense to develop a gui in c... Jul 11 23:18:14 yeah Jul 11 23:18:30 I've only used a inhouse C-with-objects UI framework... and it was absolutely terrible Jul 11 23:18:32 ljp, there are several language bindings for gtk Jul 11 23:18:44 Every other framework I've used has been in Java Jul 11 23:18:45 luckily we got other language bindings :) Jul 11 23:18:48 i personally use cells-gtk a lisp binding Jul 11 23:19:01 cells is dead. long live cells! Jul 11 23:19:04 I personally believe C/C++ are the only languages worth using :-) *ducks and runs for the hills* Jul 11 23:19:19 * unknown_lamer catches summatusmentis with a () trap Jul 11 23:19:21 summatusmentis: no need to run... you're with likeminded people in here Jul 11 23:19:30 every langauge has it's benefits and uses Jul 11 23:19:30 summatusmentis: *I*'m the oddity, I'm sure :) Jul 11 23:20:02 Stephmw: well, they're the only languages I 'speak' so... Jul 11 23:20:36 so, for you that've ordered a P1 neo, what are you gonna hack on first after arrival? Jul 11 23:20:53 summatusmentis: that must be painful to listen to... Jul 11 23:20:58 aevin: clisp Jul 11 23:21:04 Stephmw: :-D Jul 11 23:21:06 from a commercial standpoint GTK has a better license Jul 11 23:21:10 alas, uffi and cffi don't work on arm so no gtk yet :-( Jul 11 23:21:17 summatusmentis: for, open bracket, int i equals zero... Jul 11 23:21:23 lol Jul 11 23:21:25 linux_galore: you mean a proprietary standpoint Jul 11 23:21:45 summatusmentis: everyone who's had access to speech recog must try it at least once Jul 11 23:22:06 * summatusmentis should find a speech recog software and try it out Jul 11 23:22:17 which bracket you're talking about might be difficult thought Jul 11 23:22:23 s/thought/though/ Jul 11 23:22:24 summatusmentis meant: which bracket you're talking about might be difficult though Jul 11 23:22:30 Linux doesnt have much in the way of speech rcognition Jul 11 23:22:44 one of those annoying things Jul 11 23:22:53 linux_galore: well, someone should do that for the neo Jul 11 23:22:53 chimera is ok for limited vocabs Jul 11 23:23:01 err Jul 11 23:23:03 sphinx Jul 11 23:23:05 probably difficult coding Jul 11 23:23:06 same thing Jul 11 23:23:27 summatusmentis: speech recognition is very hard to do and needs some pretty specialised skills Jul 11 23:23:45 ah, bummer, so we're not likely to see that for the neo? Jul 11 23:24:08 summatusmentis: not unless someone starts up a $$$ fund to pay for a researcher Jul 11 23:24:12 summatusmentis: maybe pocketsphinx with support for operating the phone but nothing else Jul 11 23:25:04 summatusmentis: if I started a speech recognition project now it would easily take 8-15 years to see any real functional results Jul 11 23:25:53 :-/ Jul 11 23:26:02 counter? Jul 11 23:26:03 "/msg aloril counter?" for actual long message, giving short version here: (last update 2007-07-10 13:43) http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter : Order https://direct.openmoko.com/ ; Shipping prob. 60% in a week 12:33:52 (7.524±3.0 days) (1731;246) Jul 11 23:26:04 linux: sphinx / cvoicecontrol should interest you Jul 11 23:26:12 summatusmentis: the problem isnt so much "recognising voice" but "understanding humans" because language is vague Jul 11 23:26:13 i bet we could recognize digits fairly quickly Jul 11 23:26:16 linux: btw speech recognition is easy. Jul 11 23:26:19 there must be some FOSS project already started with speech recognition to build upon. Jul 11 23:26:23 * daMaestro hacks counter (and thus speeds up the shipments) Jul 11 23:26:23 lol Jul 11 23:26:36 cmusphinx.sf.net Jul 11 23:26:38 uh Jul 11 23:26:46 you don't need speech recognition Jul 11 23:26:47 pavelm: not if your dealing with cultural variations Jul 11 23:26:51 you need pattern recognition Jul 11 23:27:07 linux_galore: yeah, that makes sense Jul 11 23:27:33 linux OCR is not real good last i looked too Jul 11 23:27:39 cept tesseract Jul 11 23:27:47 linux: You just record words from user, then recognize those. Jul 11 23:27:52 linux: that's what cvoicecontrol does. Jul 11 23:27:55 linux: try it. Jul 11 23:28:14 cjb: if it was just a mater of having a mic and translating it into text Ericssons 20 year in house project would have got it working by now Jul 11 23:28:17 linux: sphinx is better, but i'm not sure if you can make it small enough for a phone. Jul 11 23:28:28 pavelm: that's a good point, similar to training a speech recog program Jul 11 23:28:48 pavelm: thats patern matching not speech recognition Jul 11 23:28:52 linux: yes... and it is also how 'speech recog' works on most phones. Jul 11 23:28:59 I have yet to try a speech recognition that actually works.. Jul 11 23:29:08 s/speech/handwriting/ Jul 11 23:29:08 summatusmentis meant: pavelm: that's a good point, similar to training a handwriting recog program Jul 11 23:29:11 linux: Not _quite_ pattern matching, but yeah. Jul 11 23:29:12 is there a better way to figure out if an XPCOM object implements an interface besides QIing it to that interface and catching the exception, if any? Jul 11 23:29:12 Those recorded commands work, but that's cheeting Jul 11 23:29:13 pavelm: pocketsphinx.org Jul 11 23:29:35 pattern matching is simple but you better have tons of storage heh Jul 11 23:29:48 I have yet to try an open-source speech recognition that actually works. Jul 11 23:30:18 CM: is it? It is similar to how your dog understands you... Jul 11 23:30:28 SpeedEvil: there is a work around, put the software on the service providers servers not the phone Jul 11 23:30:41 linux: You don't needs tons of storage for this. You just need the commands recorded (.wav), twice is better. Jul 11 23:31:02 linux_galore: not really if you want to do stuff like voice commands. Jul 11 23:31:12 CM: And actually look at pocketsphinx. It is _not_ cheating. Jul 11 23:31:19 SpeedEvil: Im talking about emails etc\ Jul 11 23:31:28 linux: forget about mails. Jul 11 23:31:42 I want incoming calls auto-recognised. Jul 11 23:31:52 linux: But it works well enough to say "radio" and maybe "mp3" plus "next song". Jul 11 23:32:00 well you could do simple pattern matching for phone command yes because you would have what 20-50 of them at most Jul 11 23:32:10 linux: it is reasonably possible to recognize 10-20 phrases. Jul 11 23:32:35 commands* Jul 11 23:32:51 I still use voice commands with dogs. They work :-) Jul 11 23:34:25 hmm wonder if there is a FOSS wav pattern matching algorithm Jul 11 23:35:05 * SpeedEvil wants auto-translate to dog and horse :) Jul 11 23:35:29 linux: cvoicecontrol. Jul 11 23:35:46 "stupid fsking dog" TRANSLATING..... woof woof grrrr droool grrr Jul 11 23:36:06 linux: and don't call it pattern matching, because it is not. It's "let's compute cepstral coeficient, then compute distance to recorded wavs", basically. Jul 11 23:36:42 anyway stuff to do Jul 11 23:36:44 linux: "stupid fscking horse" would have to be translated as a kick. Jul 11 23:37:01 ...I'm not sure if I want hw capable of _that_ connected to a commputer ;-) Jul 11 23:37:28 what is the counter that daMaestro pretends to hack? Jul 11 23:37:46 !counter Jul 11 23:37:54 counter! Jul 11 23:38:00 bah Jul 11 23:38:10 Wow, I just got a fix on hammerhead, indoors in pretty ugly conditions. Jul 11 23:38:32 ...meter and half from a window... Jul 11 23:38:50 $GPGGA,233839.00,5006.429901,N,01434.032741,E,1,05,0.5,334.0,M,0.239001,M,-0.0020515,*64 Jul 11 23:39:03 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[GSM]] [[Category:Software]] [[Neo1973_host_software]] Jul 11 23:40:14 elrond: I do not think anonymous checkout works on linuxtogo.org :-( Jul 11 23:44:46 does anyone have a recent rootfs+kernel for v4b handy? Jul 11 23:45:11 core: http://buildhost.openmoko.org/tmp/deploy/images/ ? Jul 11 23:45:45 pavelm_afc: the ones from buildhost are ancient ;) Jul 11 23:46:15 core: Wow...? Me wants latest software Jul 11 23:46:36 core: ...or is 5 days ancient these days? Jul 11 23:46:39 :-) Jul 11 23:46:44 it is =) Jul 11 23:48:28 how many gta01bv4 phones do they expect to make? Jul 11 23:51:55 pavelm_afc - Okay, my hammerhead at least was able to find out the current time. ;o) Jul 11 23:54:49 hola friends Jul 11 23:57:07 dead room tonight eh? Jul 11 23:57:45 CoreDump|home: http://totalueberwachung.de/~alphaone/openmoko-build/images/ Jul 11 23:58:20 alphaone: thank you! Jul 12 00:02:29 CoreDump|home: np Jul 12 00:04:43 elrond: Ok, better than nothing :-) Jul 12 00:04:53 elrond: You need to take it to a trip outside.... Jul 12 00:05:02 alphaone: thank you! Jul 12 00:05:07 oops Jul 12 00:05:25 good night... Jul 12 00:05:35 CoreDump|home: Keep going. I can't get enough of that :-) Jul 12 00:05:45 hehe Jul 12 00:05:51 heh Jul 12 00:06:43 Yay! I'm finally in sync again with my tax declaration, etc. Jul 12 00:07:00 :) Jul 12 00:08:49 Will openmoko have an xml library onboard? Jul 12 00:11:28 The answer to almost all software questions is 'no'. There is very little working software - the dialer just about works. Jul 12 00:12:40 kalikiana - my neo is just downstairs, trying to get a gps fix. If it's connected back to my box, I can tell you, what libraries are on there by default. Jul 12 00:13:44 Elrond, Ah, nice :) Jul 12 00:15:24 In fact knowing what *will* be there is also fine. I'm mainly interested in what you could expect to work with in the long term. Jul 12 00:16:00 kalikiana: Almost nothing is set in stone at this point. Jul 12 00:16:20 Come up with better alternatives to even core software, and it could well get changed. Jul 12 00:16:31 kalikiana: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/OpenMokoFramework Jul 12 00:16:37 see libexpat at the bottom Jul 12 00:16:55 in fact, double the fun-- see libxml2 Jul 12 00:19:16 mikeleib, Thank you. So it has expat and xml2? Isn't that kind of strange? Jul 12 00:19:26 Well, I'm happy to see libxml2:D Jul 12 00:19:38 the world of free software is that there are at least two of everything.. usually both half done Jul 12 00:19:48 *lol Jul 12 00:20:49 as you can see, fontconfig and dbus use expat and gtk uses libxml2 Jul 12 00:23:16 can anyone confirm that moko is booger in chinese or japanese? Jul 12 00:24:00 Hey, so does anyone know what Harald meant in his blog post on the Planet today? Jul 12 00:25:38 seems like he is stressed Jul 12 00:26:47 Well, I caught that... :) I was just wondering if there is some internal friction that anyone is aware of (other than the normal...:)) Jul 12 00:29:05 * mikeleib flees the scene Jul 12 00:40:44 Hi all, I'm trying to set up an emulation environment for the OpenMoko (Neo1973 under QEmu) but ran into some problems building from SVN. Jul 12 00:41:23 It seems gnokiigsm/device.h uses a __ptr_t macro type but is undefined (line 49 and 50) Jul 12 00:45:14 It looks like adding "#define __ptr_t void *" to gnokiigsm/device.h fixed the build issue, is this something I should file a bug for? Jul 12 00:45:15 jargonjustin: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.) Jul 12 00:50:57 robots; helpful as always Jul 12 00:51:03 sadly i can't be any more help than him Jul 12 00:52:36 jargonjustin: grep -r shows __prt_t only in the gnokiigsm directory. i figured it was a rather basic macro that would be defined elsewhere. Jul 12 00:52:49 jargonjustin: although i can say my openmoko build completed without any .h patching Jul 12 00:53:07 don-o: I'm on Mac OS X so that may have something to do with it Jul 12 00:54:03 josh_marshall: possibly. im on ubuntu (inside parallels on OS X :) Jul 12 00:54:48 /usr/include/sys/cdefs.h: #define __ptr_t void * Jul 12 00:55:13 maybe one is supposed to use ptr_t Jul 12 00:55:25 __* is generally not supposed to be exported Jul 12 00:55:30 jargonjustin: os x has the same definition: /usr/include/sys/cdefs.h:#define __ptr_t void * Jul 12 01:01:20 sings "Im a little moko nut as happy as can be" Jul 12 01:01:42 :-P Jul 12 01:01:47 linux_galore: Youtube! Jul 12 01:05:51 "every time I make a call I know my phone free" Jul 12 01:06:00 is free* Jul 12 01:09:04 linux_galore, you actually manage to call people with it..? Jul 12 01:11:54 hard to without hardware Jul 12 01:12:53 hopefully mine will show up soon Jul 12 01:15:05 anyone know how I specify color now that they have added it as an option ? :-P Jul 12 01:15:32 Put it in the comments box Jul 12 01:15:41 If you're talking of ordering Jul 12 01:16:04 SpeedEvil, already ordered- still no response Jul 12 01:16:20 i think i talked to you two days ago Jul 12 01:16:32 if youve already ordered and recieved an autoresponse message respond to that saying what color you want Jul 12 01:16:39 haha Jul 12 01:16:41 okay then Jul 12 01:17:01 so when will it *actually* ship ? Jul 12 01:17:22 yeah i didnt know to put your color choice in the comments box so i just sent them an email Jul 12 01:17:39 no response about the color choice but hopefully theyll get it Jul 12 01:17:47 and its the best you can do at this point Jul 12 01:18:41 sublime, did you do the order page ? Jul 12 01:19:28 yeah i did the order page Jul 12 01:19:39 it was very..rushed :-P Jul 12 01:19:57 sublime, so do you know when they will actually be shipped ? Jul 12 01:19:59 my order was 1843 which gives me the 23 ordered neo Jul 12 01:20:12 the 16th i believe Jul 12 01:20:22 ouch Jul 12 01:20:24 theyre on their way from taiwan to cali now Jul 12 01:20:26 i am 25 96 Jul 12 01:20:29 * 2596 Jul 12 01:20:42 how many are there? Jul 12 01:20:46 1000 Jul 12 01:20:56 phew Jul 12 01:21:05 codyl|dinner: people can order up to 11 Jul 12 01:21:09 in one order. Jul 12 01:21:10 0penm0k0 Jul 12 01:21:26 where in cali? Jul 12 01:21:36 2596 is really close to the border. Jul 12 01:21:43 fremont, ca. (san francisco bay) Jul 12 01:21:45 yeah and hopefully they made like 90% black/silver becuase the white/orange is freekin ugly if you ask me Jul 12 01:21:49 SpeedEvil, im scared now Jul 12 01:21:55 They will make more. Jul 12 01:21:56 and i dont want to be stuck with that color Jul 12 01:21:57 white/orange is icky Jul 12 01:22:01 white/orange looks like a gradeschool toy Jul 12 01:22:06 it does Jul 12 01:22:07 sublime, fremont is about 15 minutes from me! Jul 12 01:22:15 tight Jul 12 01:22:19 It's only $14 to ship. Jul 12 01:22:27 Not like outside the US. Jul 12 01:22:29 yeah it was 15 three day for me Jul 12 01:22:33 where it can be $140 Jul 12 01:22:34 i would Love it if someone with a machineshop turned out sweet custom moko cases. Jul 12 01:22:35 i paid $20 ish Jul 12 01:22:36 which is insane. Jul 12 01:22:55 probably no way to just * go get it * right? Jul 12 01:23:10 yeah fkn ~100 to ship to europe is completey outragious Jul 12 01:23:13 i am getting the orange because it will get people's attention - no point keeping a low profile if you want a revolution :-) Ugly or not. Jul 12 01:23:17 i bet you could just go get it Jul 12 01:23:26 sublime, who would i contact Jul 12 01:23:28 I can make a couple of days after obtaining a neo a quality metal case. Only $20. Jul 12 01:23:32 i dont know Jul 12 01:23:47 sublime, okay- thanks for your help Jul 12 01:23:49 look in the phone book for the FIC building and just show up Jul 12 01:23:55 lol Jul 12 01:23:59 SpeedEvil: that'll be cool Jul 12 01:24:02 Made from finest quality lead. Jul 12 01:24:06 sounds like a waste of time Jul 12 01:24:14 what, no cadmium? D: Jul 12 01:24:26 who said there's an FIC building in fremont? its probably some guy's garage. Jul 12 01:24:28 I actually do have some cadmium. Jul 12 01:24:30 you can get ultra low melting point metals, they just have about 4 different toxic metals in them Jul 12 01:24:33 And some bismuth. Jul 12 01:24:34 lowest i've seen is 118 F Jul 12 01:24:41 cerrolow? Jul 12 01:24:49 NaK has melting point of -20C IIRC Jul 12 01:24:50 then of course there's mercury and gallium and such Jul 12 01:24:59 Of course, it does burst into flames in air. Jul 12 01:25:02 well they said FIC America but i wouldnt doubt it if it is just some dude's mom's basement Jul 12 01:25:04 how cool would that be D: Jul 12 01:25:21 ah so it is. google maps says 5070 Brandin Ct, Fremont Ca. Jul 12 01:25:35 sublime: some dude's mom's basement would be much more l33t Jul 12 01:25:36 MOOOOOOOMMMMMMMMMM WE NEED MORE MEATLOAF THE PHONES JUST CAME IN Jul 12 01:25:40 they don't even have the phones there yet, i think Jul 12 01:25:42 ROTFL Jul 12 01:25:58 'The ship carrying the phones sunk'. Oops. Jul 12 01:26:09 ha. they're flying. Jul 12 01:26:22 hey if anyone here works with harrald i think he needs a hug Jul 12 01:26:32 dude sounds like hes gonna flip Jul 12 01:26:38 stressomatic Jul 12 01:26:54 good thing FIC makes phones and not tasers. Jul 12 01:27:23 funny you should say that, tazer headquarters is in my hometown Jul 12 01:27:34 * don-o goes to find meatloaf^h^h^h^h^h^h^h^h^h a theater that is playing Transformers Jul 12 01:35:42 Meatloaf? Jul 12 01:36:00 Objects in a 2.8" TFT display may appear closer than they are? Jul 12 01:39:43 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[User_talk:Myfanwy]] [[User:Agent_X]] [[Removal_of_free_space]] [[Digital_gaming]] [[Torch]] [[Wish_List_-_Hardware]] [[Solar_power]] [[Ambient_light_sensor]] [[Talk:OpenMoko_under_QEMU_on_Gentoo]] [[OpenMoko_under_QEMU_on_Gentoo]] and other changes Jul 12 01:40:43 SpeedEvil, Typical IT joke, eh? Kind of hard to laugh if you're not a geek :P Jul 12 01:41:11 It's not especially funny even if you are :) Jul 12 01:41:23 * SpeedEvil should go to bed. Jul 12 01:41:44 agreed Jul 12 01:41:45 :> Jul 12 01:43:04 Just got home from working for 14 hours :\ Jul 12 01:43:15 Think I'll go to bed too. Jul 12 01:43:29 im at 8 and a half hours with another 3 to go Jul 12 01:43:47 i got locked in the receptionists office for 30min today Jul 12 01:44:29 i was trying to decide whether i should call the cops and risk embarrasment or stay the night and start eating my clothes Jul 12 01:44:45 then the janitor walked in when i had my shirt in my mouth Jul 12 01:44:45 sublime, bonan , nothing can be worse than hacking in opie for 8 hours straight Jul 12 01:44:47 :T Jul 12 01:44:49 hehe :) Jul 12 01:45:09 sublime, :D Jul 12 01:45:39 you guys think im joking, im fkn serious Jul 12 02:03:06 i want to see a version/add-on/mod for the neo that jives me some gaming buttons Jul 12 02:05:34 MrFeetio, connect bt keyboard to it :B Jul 12 02:07:38 a bluetooth connected input controller might not be so bad but that doesn't even approach integrated Jul 12 02:08:49 im sure someone will make a small game control add-on for the neo Jul 12 02:08:55 a Nintendo Wiimote could work as well... Jul 12 02:09:20 Hm, that's a good thought :) Jul 12 02:09:26 except you need hands to hold the neo Jul 12 02:09:42 Well, you could hold them one in each hand if you're just using the accelerometers and buttons. :) Jul 12 02:09:52 MrFeetio, i hope so also Jul 12 02:09:58 true Jul 12 02:10:02 MrFeetio, i've see some feedback about "where is the keyboard" Jul 12 02:10:15 MrFeetio, so i expect someone to do some hardware hacking and come out with a new case Jul 12 02:10:18 or you could always get some tape :-) Jul 12 02:10:29 MrFeetio, a gaming keyboard sounds awesome Jul 12 02:10:52 the "neo-GP2X-1973" Jul 12 02:11:05 tape fixes everything Jul 12 02:11:10 phone and say "hello?" I answered back "hello." And then he said "can you hear me?" And I said "yes, can you hear me?" And he said "yes" and then I said, I need some help activating my iPhone and then he say "Oh, man, I'm a customer too. I thought you answered to help me!" Jul 12 02:11:15 MrFeetio, the *great* part about the neo... you *can* make such changes Jul 12 02:11:26 (just thought that was funny) Jul 12 02:11:47 yeah. AT&T.competency < 0 Jul 12 02:12:50 orzo: they connected two customers together? o.O Jul 12 02:13:14 lol! Jul 12 02:14:06 what i want to see is a hard case(the PSP has one) that is a clamshell and the part the covers the creen flips up and has a keyboard Jul 12 02:14:19 it has usb, you can just connect a usb game pad to it :) Jul 12 02:14:24 MrFeetio, spec out some hardware ;-) Jul 12 02:14:33 doc|home, more for on-the-go gaming Jul 12 02:14:36 ah, ok Jul 12 02:15:06 MrFeetio, i think there is a request page on the wiki Jul 12 02:15:45 it would be after market and it wouldnt involve any form of modding Jul 12 02:16:28 there is a unpoweredmicrousb(1.1) on the neo right? Jul 12 02:16:59 yes Jul 12 02:17:03 but it would make the neo larger Jul 12 02:17:07 and tougher Jul 12 02:17:21 it might be easier to tap into the I2C or SPI bus and a small microcontroller to handle the buttons Jul 12 02:18:05 does that involve opening case? Jul 12 02:18:36 yes Jul 12 02:18:48 i want to use the usb so i dont have to open the case Jul 12 02:18:52 were you thinking about making something to clip onto the current case? Jul 12 02:18:57 yes Jul 12 02:19:02 ok, understood Jul 12 02:19:14 You'd need an external power source Jul 12 02:19:15 I believe you would need to provide your own power source then as well Jul 12 02:19:27 for buttons? Jul 12 02:19:37 and a joystick Jul 12 02:19:38 To provide power to the USB controller Jul 12 02:19:57 what is an unpowered USB port good for? Jul 12 02:20:16 plugging into a powered hub Jul 12 02:20:29 it should be powered Jul 12 02:20:30 if it *was* powered it would wipe the battery out incredibly fast Jul 12 02:20:31 is teh difference between usb 1.1 and usb 2.0 the power? Jul 12 02:20:35 ohhh Jul 12 02:20:41 2.0 adds 480Mb/sec support Jul 12 02:20:42 no Jul 12 02:20:47 MrFeetio: USB requires 5v. No other component of the Neo does Jul 12 02:20:48 its the data tranfer rate Jul 12 02:20:48 oh Jul 12 02:20:54 So it'd have to have a 5v line just for the USB port Jul 12 02:21:01 you can have 12Mb/sec USB 2.0 compliant devices Jul 12 02:21:03 And all the relevant power-consuming circuitry Jul 12 02:21:04 and hence a ... Jul 12 02:21:22 the battery would also have to be xbox hueg Jul 12 02:21:23 what kind of battery would be needed? watch? Jul 12 02:21:37 (for the attachment) Jul 12 02:21:43 If you wanted it to last any time at all, I think you'd need at least one AAA Jul 12 02:21:52 is there a cord that adapts an ordinary power socket to be a usb port for charging the phone? Jul 12 02:21:53 probably 3-4 of them really Jul 12 02:21:57 But you'll need space for the buttons and to grip it anyway, right? Jul 12 02:22:06 1 AAA would last <1hr Jul 12 02:22:20 damn Jul 12 02:22:25 happycube: Eh? Just to power a single USB controller? I don't think so. Jul 12 02:22:25 with a 2.5W (max allowed!) device Jul 12 02:22:37 the controller's active you just need to feed the 5v Jul 12 02:22:40 an AAA is 1.5 volts Jul 12 02:22:51 orzo: You can get pretty efficient inverting regulators these days Jul 12 02:22:53 you'd have to transform it to 5 Jul 12 02:22:59 Esp. if you're happy with an external inductor Jul 12 02:23:07 a low power device might last ok Jul 12 02:23:23 but 4 AA's would be a lot better Jul 12 02:23:27 i just plan on making some 3d models of the attachment Jul 12 02:23:35 so i should make space for four? Jul 12 02:23:36 It's a USB device controller, not a host, so all it needs is enough power for the logic Jul 12 02:23:51 I think 1 or at most 2 AAAs would probably be fine, personally Jul 12 02:24:00 ok Jul 12 02:24:04 will usb 1.1 be good enough to support typical mass storage devices? Jul 12 02:24:06 But your best bet would be to look up the power consumption requirements on a USB device controller Jul 12 02:24:13 orzo: Only if you don't mind slow transfer rate Jul 12 02:24:29 where can i find 3-d rendered models of the neo? Jul 12 02:24:30 And then factor in about 80% efficiency for the inverting regulator Jul 12 02:25:54 It's just a shame the neo doesn't (AFAIK) have any external connectors that can export power Jul 12 02:26:19 the audio jack Jul 12 02:26:21 heh Jul 12 02:26:31 heh Jul 12 02:26:45 "This game adaptor will only work if you have the volume up loud" Jul 12 02:27:01 that was what i was thinking Jul 12 02:27:34 what are we discussing? Jul 12 02:27:39 the gamepad case idea? Jul 12 02:27:43 yea Jul 12 02:28:00 MrFeetio wants to make one that doesn't require modifying the existing case Jul 12 02:28:05 And just plugs into the USB Jul 12 02:28:09 couldn't you just make leads from the battery? Jul 12 02:28:18 oh Jul 12 02:28:41 my current idea is to have a protective case(clamshell) over the entire phone Jul 12 02:28:47 well thats fine Jul 12 02:28:52 just add some extra batteries with it Jul 12 02:28:54 the part that covers the phone, flips down Jul 12 02:29:03 *phone=screen Jul 12 02:29:11 maybe one of those flat calculator type batteries Jul 12 02:29:35 We were discussing that Jul 12 02:29:43 no AAA for grip, cause you will be holding the add-on case not the neo Jul 12 02:29:54 im open to ideas Jul 12 02:30:03 what does AAA have to do with grip? Jul 12 02:30:06 I doubt a button cell would have enough power for a USB device controller for long Jul 12 02:30:22 MrFeetio: Won't you have a whole lot of unused space required to fit all the buttons in comfortably anyway? Jul 12 02:30:23 well, are we modifying an existing usb controller? Jul 12 02:30:25 because it will need batterys for power Jul 12 02:31:18 how much power does a small BT keyboard use? Jul 12 02:31:19 seems like you'd have plenty of space Jul 12 02:31:46 im just trying to figure out how to power this thing Jul 12 02:32:06 Like I said, best bet is to find a suitable usb controller and look up its power consumption specs Jul 12 02:32:49 old fassioned analog pc gamepads could run off of whatever was provided on the serial game ports Jul 12 02:33:47 Indeed, but they didn't need any circuitry Jul 12 02:34:12 They just closed circuits on certain pins with switches Jul 12 02:34:58 probably could use the audio jack Jul 12 02:35:35 for data and power both Jul 12 02:35:38 heh Jul 12 02:35:50 along with audio too Jul 12 02:36:45 iduno **** BEGIN LOGGING AT Thu Jul 12 02:39:01 2007 Jul 12 02:40:38 so does anyone know of 3d renderings of the neo? Jul 12 02:40:54 no Jul 12 02:45:49 well, i cant figure out how to use blender Jul 12 02:47:13 what are you trying to blend? Jul 12 02:47:56 some renderings of a neo add on Jul 12 02:52:30 I've got qemu running (pulled from SVN) and it boots, but no cursor (despite the -show-cursor option) Jul 12 02:54:26 when my dad worked for Ericsson the biggest selling mobile colour was "blue" Jul 12 02:55:17 so is somebody fixing the openmoko mail servers? Jul 12 02:55:24 dark tones always sell better Jul 12 02:55:52 jargonjustin, umm that is by design Jul 12 02:55:58 they should make a NEO in tungsten or brushed metal Jul 12 02:56:12 daMaesto: what's the best way to tell what I'm clicking on a PC then? Jul 12 02:56:42 don't capture the pointer into qemu? Jul 12 02:57:23 jargonjustin, what distro? Jul 12 02:57:31 daMaestro: Mac OS X :-/ Jul 12 02:58:19 see you tomorrow **** ENDING LOGGING AT Thu Jul 12 02:59:57 2007