**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Fri Jul 13 02:59:57 2007 Jul 13 03:06:36 Video would depend on the codec, surely? Jul 13 03:06:50 MPEG1/MPEG2 are pretty low CPU (comparatively speaking), aren't theY? Jul 13 03:07:42 i think it was due to the time it would take to update the whole screen Jul 13 03:07:45 arachnid, i can play 8fps 300x225 mpeg1 with a non-special player on a similar processor Jul 13 03:08:09 but 640x480, that's a lot of ram to write to, i don't know how fast the ram runs Jul 13 03:08:31 True Jul 13 03:08:35 8fps is kind of pitiful. :P Jul 13 03:08:49 But can't the device be set to a lower resolution? Jul 13 03:09:01 Say, 320x240, and it draws 4 pixels from one location? Jul 13 03:09:39 i've been told that is possible. it's still a lot of ram to write. i'm really curious to find out. Jul 13 03:09:41 it's a vga screen, so i'm sure that's possible Jul 13 03:09:59 well it's an lcd, but i think the lcd has a pixel-doubling mode specifically for this Jul 13 03:10:31 Talking ~5.5MB/sec for 320x240x24bit at 25fps Jul 13 03:10:39 I guess that's a fair bit for a device like this, true Jul 13 03:10:50 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Video_Player Jul 13 03:11:16 Gives you a new appreciation for just how much bandwidth fullscreen video on a computer consumes :) Jul 13 03:11:27 there is an lcd driver integrated into the cpu, so i think it is like an "agp shared memory aperture" card Jul 13 03:11:32 the ram could be really fast though Jul 13 03:12:14 Rotation on the fly shouldn't be a big issue, surely? Jul 13 03:12:16 arachnid, yeah, when you think of all the bits and bytes moving around in even a small movie, it boggles the mind Jul 13 03:12:22 It's jsut a matter of writing pixels to the memory in a different order Jul 13 03:12:44 wow, that's great news about the stock mplayer times, quinton Jul 13 03:12:54 indeed Jul 13 03:13:10 rotation can require scaling Jul 13 03:13:22 Pity it requires videos encoded specifically for the device, but what cellphone doesn't? Jul 13 03:13:34 galexande: I'm talking about taking a 320x240 video and displaying it on a 240x320 display Jul 13 03:13:39 Eg, landscape Jul 13 03:13:40 i used to encode 240x160 8fps mpeg1s to watch on my ipaq :) Jul 13 03:13:46 heh Jul 13 03:14:11 will the phase2 have the same problems for video, or will it be fixed by the 2d acceleration? Jul 13 03:14:12 i could just fit one 45-minute episode of star trek into its 24MB of free psace Jul 13 03:14:25 quinton, presumably fixed Jul 13 03:14:51 faster cpu too Jul 13 03:15:17 hahaha i was just thinking "i miss speedevil" Jul 13 03:15:53 Hm. 2d acceleration can't eliminate the need to shift that many bits around, though Jul 13 03:16:33 build your own Linux phone http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/NS5947466557.html Jul 13 03:18:33 there is a question, will the GTA02 have enough grunt to play avi's Jul 13 03:18:44 That would depend on the codec Jul 13 03:19:06 lets say xvid Jul 13 03:20:11 my GP2X can play xvid files without re encoding just fine Jul 13 03:20:11 arachnid, it might, if it uses separate video ram or something Jul 13 03:20:22 other devices that play video generally do codec stuff in hardware, don't they? Jul 13 03:20:34 quinton: not the GP2X Jul 13 03:20:55 like, if it has a mode where it will essentially dma mpeg from the cpu and theneverything else is off the cpu, it would of course be trivial Jul 13 03:21:03 but that is a little unlikely :) Jul 13 03:21:17 although the GP2X has two cpu's one dedicated to vido Jul 13 03:21:20 video* Jul 13 03:22:40 heh i love that they mentioned openmoko in the article Jul 13 03:22:46 galexande: You've still got to transfer the data from system ram to the video ram, though Jul 13 03:22:47 Ive watched video on old P2's with 128mb of ram just fine Jul 13 03:22:52 which article? Jul 13 03:23:03 arachnid, yeah, but if you can reduce it to transfering the compressed data then that's not too much work Jul 13 03:23:12 oh the dyi linux phone Jul 13 03:23:29 galexande: That'll only work if the 2d accelerator has hardware decoding support for the codec in question Jul 13 03:23:39 arachnid, exactly Jul 13 03:24:37 i intend to implement a simple bankbook on the phone Jul 13 03:24:58 that will verify purchaces against your account and checking for discreprencies Jul 13 03:25:13 You've just provided an example of how investment can do the exact opposite, _impoverishing_ other people. Jul 13 03:25:15 i have a little checkbook register i port to every palmtop i buy Jul 13 03:25:21 oops. wrong channel. :) Jul 13 03:25:22 i guess some of you've seen this? http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/NS5947466557.html Jul 13 03:25:35 Yup Jul 13 03:25:40 aevin, the question is how many times can we see it in one day :) Jul 13 03:25:46 well i've never owned a palmtop before, galexande Jul 13 03:25:47 I don't think it's much of a competition. Jul 13 03:25:47 I bet most if not all the OpenMoko software could be made to work pretty easily on the Goliath." Jul 13 03:25:55 quote ^^ Jul 13 03:25:56 You can have an openmoko, or a gumstix held together with tape ;) Jul 13 03:26:01 galexande: infinite. (or the max bandwidth of your irc server) Jul 13 03:26:03 Since there's no cases and no batteries available. :P Jul 13 03:26:07 heh, that's neat Jul 13 03:26:19 well from an openmoko perspective, the gumstix is just another target. Jul 13 03:26:28 i dread to think the abominations that would be spawned. Jul 13 03:26:30 true :) Jul 13 03:26:37 I meant to say a Neo Jul 13 03:27:03 Though interestingly, the place I work at does one of their example applications - fleet tracking - with custom hardware :) Jul 13 03:27:07 unfortunately i dunno how wise it is to carry around ugly electronics nowadays Jul 13 03:27:12 galexande: yup. potentially more users. and more developers :) Jul 13 03:27:34 I suspect that now we're past the initial costs it's cheaper than using gumstix, but it would've been an attractive proposition if it was around when we started. Jul 13 03:27:37 why is it unwise to carry aorund ugly electronics? Jul 13 03:27:55 quinton: good point. Dont want to be holding a bundle of circuit boards in hte airport, im sure Jul 13 03:28:03 heh Jul 13 03:28:12 yeah, or on a train Jul 13 03:28:15 heh, no its not a bomb is my Linux phone Jul 13 03:28:20 its* Jul 13 03:28:29 linux_galore: famous last words. Jul 13 03:28:47 linux_galore: as the police open fire Jul 13 03:29:11 how does a multitouch differ from non? Jul 13 03:29:18 it is a hardware difference right? Jul 13 03:29:21 well i'm addicted to packaging, i need a phone that isn't held togetehr by duct tape Jul 13 03:29:38 orzo, the iphone screen is a totally different technology than the neo one Jul 13 03:29:43 orzo: I believe that for a true multitouch, it's a hardware difference Jul 13 03:29:47 i like how the neo doesn't have any moving parts Jul 13 03:29:52 But for 2-touch, it could be implemented in software on an existing device Jul 13 03:29:55 those swivel things are designed to break Jul 13 03:29:58 With sufficient driver hackery Jul 13 03:29:59 arachnid, eh? Jul 13 03:30:05 yeah, imagine some geek talking into a pile of wires and circuit board on the train with his backpack.... question, how long before some hero beats the crap out of him Jul 13 03:30:39 galexande: If you want to record an arbitrary number of contacts, you can't use the scan-matrix approach employed by standard touchscreens due to ghosting issues Jul 13 03:30:45 But it ought to be possible to detect two Jul 13 03:30:49 i mean, you might be able to detect that a multi-touch event is occuring, but i don't see how you would know the location of the other finger with any confidence, for example if it moved at all Jul 13 03:31:03 it is scan matrix? i thought it was resistive Jul 13 03:31:16 That's my understanding from an earlier conversation Jul 13 03:31:18 I'm probably wrong ;) Jul 13 03:31:32 is it possible to implement a game controller on the touch screen which you select a 1 of 8 directions with one thumb, and one of two buttons with the other? Jul 13 03:31:37 arachnid, i think you're thinking of traditional single-touch touchpads, which are different from teh neo's touchscreen as well. Jul 13 03:31:55 I also saw something on the mialing list about the manufacturer saying it was possible in theory Jul 13 03:32:04 orzo, i *wish* Jul 13 03:32:19 there are a lot of hacks which kinda-sorta offer similar functionality Jul 13 03:32:33 Looks like there's a whole bunch: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Touch_Screen Jul 13 03:32:48 Can't say much intelligent without knowing which one the Neo is using :) Jul 13 03:33:46 i think neo is resistive, and "trackpads" are capacitive, and the iphone is capacitev Jul 13 03:34:01 galexande, do you have a phone yet? Jul 13 03:34:28 i dream Jul 13 03:34:54 if it were even doable, would our controller be at all comfortable to use? Jul 13 03:34:54 in dreams i walk with you / in dreams i talk on you Jul 13 03:35:16 orzo, if i think of a good way to do it, i'm gonna port doom Jul 13 03:35:19 galexande: LOL Jul 13 03:35:40 that would make an awful openmoko28 video on youtube Jul 13 03:35:53 i still haven't given up on the idea of nethack on the neo Jul 13 03:35:54 does doom need porting? prboom will run on X, right? Jul 13 03:36:01 quinton, nethack would be totally trivial Jul 13 03:36:09 or whatever the latest doom engine is Jul 13 03:36:13 orzo, most of the porting effort will be controls Jul 13 03:36:21 since there are no buttons Jul 13 03:36:38 i just wanted to put nintendo games on it Jul 13 03:36:44 heh Jul 13 03:36:49 One of the graphical nethack interfaces would be nice :) Jul 13 03:41:45 * aloril guesses that laf0rge for changes trough to https://direct.openmoko.com/ Jul 13 03:43:03 how close can GPS pinpoint a location? Jul 13 03:43:57 3 meters, right? Jul 13 03:45:50 if you have a lot of satellites in view, better than that Jul 13 03:46:26 Depends on where in the world you are, too Jul 13 03:46:33 Here in NZ, the best we get is 3 meters Jul 13 03:46:46 Actually, isn't that the best you can get without correction data? Jul 13 03:47:39 I believe so Jul 13 03:48:05 i thought the silence and waiting was bad enough but the gmail repeats are back on the lists :( Jul 13 03:48:29 aloril: you think laf0rge was pissed because it wasn't clear enough that it wasn't an end user phone? Jul 13 03:48:30 notserpe: yup Jul 13 03:49:00 Agrajag-: what happened? I must have missed it Jul 13 03:49:18 Jason1: planet.openmoko.org - note that was a couple of days ago Jul 13 03:49:20 Agrajag-: ah, dunno about that Jul 13 03:49:32 aloril: oh ok Jul 13 03:49:57 Agrajag-: 1) burning out 2) getting stuff done (see his previous blog entries) Jul 13 03:50:21 just guesses, but he was close to burning out at February (according to his words) Jul 13 03:51:00 maybe there is another delay planned? Jul 13 03:51:13 yeah.. but because the first batch got sold so quickly, i'd say either they're gonna be amazingly happy because of the all the dev work being done, or lots of users are going to get their phone and go "nothing works!" :P Jul 13 03:52:13 * aloril wonders what rate of selling would have been with that warning in place from start Jul 13 03:52:23 maybe not that much change ;-) Jul 13 03:52:31 * aloril hopes at least so Jul 13 03:52:32 hopefully :) Jul 13 03:52:48 Jason1: don Jul 13 03:52:58 I dont too many people were expected a consumer-ready phone Jul 13 03:53:03 Jason1: don't see any other delay than customs Jul 13 03:53:10 Correction, I DONT think too many people. Jul 13 03:53:26 they haven't confirmed anyone's order yet right? Jul 13 03:53:31 it did say developer preview, but dunno how many read that correctly Jul 13 03:53:37 aloril; hopefuly hte phones are already in the US. Hopefully Jul 13 03:53:44 could the phone be made to lie to the A-GPS server? Jul 13 03:53:47 they can just follow up with a confirmation email (sure it's work but better than PO'd buyers) Jul 13 03:53:57 Jason1: maybe, but I suspect they are still in Chinese customs Jul 13 03:54:24 orzo: you could prohibit connection to A-GPS server Jul 13 03:54:27 aloril: yeah, you may be right Jul 13 03:54:29 orzo, i think the information flows only from server to client in this case Jul 13 03:54:32 Do we know they sold really quickly? Jul 13 03:54:55 I know people were looking at order numbers, but last I saw there were plenty left at buest guess Jul 13 03:54:58 er, best Jul 13 03:55:05 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Hardware:AGPS Jul 13 03:55:06 arachnid: They should be sold out Jul 13 03:55:15 They only had 1000, right Jul 13 03:55:19 yes Jul 13 03:55:36 what was the last #? Jul 13 03:55:44 s/last/latest/ Jul 13 03:55:44 notserpe meant: what was the latest #? Jul 13 03:55:44 arachnid: 1000 units, yesterday somebody had 35XX rt ticket number, first order ticket number is 1820 Jul 13 03:55:45 3263 on the P1 Owners list Jul 13 03:55:54 no, wikipedia tells me that AGPS measn that the phone sends a fragmentary signal to a server somewhere which has better reception Jul 13 03:55:57 AFAIK yes, basic AGPS functionality is just the ability to download almanack and ephemeris data over the network Jul 13 03:56:01 aloril: hm, okay Jul 13 03:56:10 * arachnid isn't on that list, unless someone else put him there Jul 13 03:56:13 1400 orders, give or take? Jul 13 03:56:14 And I'm sure I'm not the only person Jul 13 03:56:40 unless lots of those are spam or some rt tickets created other ways, they are mostly orders Jul 13 03:56:40 arachnid: better add yourself then :) Jul 13 03:56:47 Jason1: where is it? Jul 13 03:57:00 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/P1_Owners Jul 13 03:57:02 anyway, it was at 1800 before ordering and that is for 1/2 year at least I assume Jul 13 03:57:31 and of course we don't know how many units/order on average ;-) Jul 13 03:57:55 people have ordered 2s and 3s... (I ordered 2) Jul 13 03:57:59 aloril: yup. but assuming it is fairly close to 1 per order... they should still be sold out Jul 13 03:58:16 yes Jul 13 03:58:25 notserpe: I know there where a fair number of "group orders" Jul 13 03:58:31 will our P1 phones have any value when P2 comes out? Jul 13 03:58:39 glad I got in early, then. :) Jul 13 03:58:42 Does http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/P1_Owners list all the neo owners? Jul 13 03:58:47 orzo, as a paperweight, yes :) Jul 13 03:58:47 even with sudden generous increase in internal rt ticket numbers its still sold out Jul 13 03:58:48 littertiger: no Jul 13 03:58:58 just those that have added themselves Jul 13 03:58:59 orzo: a stable, oss unlocked phone with GPS? probably. Jul 13 03:59:10 arachnid: i c Jul 13 03:59:24 orzo: just kidding, people have been asking for a board-only upgrade option Jul 13 03:59:25 I can't take a wifi phone to work, technically, so it's still valuable to me Jul 13 03:59:40 Why on earth not? Jul 13 03:59:41 I would take a board-only upgrade option though Jul 13 03:59:54 Security. I work in a controlled environment Jul 13 04:00:06 "secret" clearance and all that Jul 13 04:00:09 i used to not be allowed to take a camera towork Jul 13 04:00:10 Then surely they shouldn't let you take a USB or bluetooth enabled phone either? Jul 13 04:00:11 sagaci2: me too! Of course I need my P1 phone first :) Jul 13 04:00:14 on a phone Jul 13 04:00:15 Mostly, it's inane ignorance of technology Jul 13 04:00:16 so many hopes placed on a board-only upgrade option which will probably never happen ... Jul 13 04:00:19 well, it looks like a zaurus sl-5500 is even worth a littl ebit on ebay still Jul 13 04:00:24 Ah, right. :) Jul 13 04:00:26 Right, you'd think Jul 13 04:00:47 We don't have any bluetooth computers in the plant, so it's allowed Jul 13 04:00:50 I can see a phone capable of recording or transmitting sound being a major hazard, too ;) Jul 13 04:00:52 we are not allowed to connec rwhitby: But if not, there is still plenty of use for hte "old" version Jul 13 04:00:59 to computers with usb devices Jul 13 04:01:20 Recording is too, but I can promise to not do that. Jul 13 04:01:20 Sure, but I bet you're not allowed to steal secrets, either... Jul 13 04:01:37 They had a real problem when suddenly every phone had a camera Jul 13 04:01:40 If that's your aim, 'not allowed' isn't much of an obstacle, is it? :) Jul 13 04:01:51 (I'm talking hypothetically here, of course) Jul 13 04:02:06 So, now we are allowed to have a camera phone if we don't intend to use the camera Jul 13 04:02:11 sagaci2: How do they determine if a phone is wifi capable or not? Jul 13 04:02:30 But, we can't take in a camera, even if we have a valid reason to use it there (as part of a software project, eg) Jul 13 04:02:30 they ask you :) Jul 13 04:02:39 They walk around with sniffers Jul 13 04:02:49 i used to do standardized test grading Jul 13 04:02:56 and had those kinds of security restrictions Jul 13 04:02:58 Although honestly, most people have wifi phones these days, so I guess they just ignore it? Jul 13 04:02:59 Currently sold Neo1973 GTA01B_v04 (P1) doesn't have WiFi, GTA02 (P2) which is scheduled for October will have WiFi (Atheros AR6K): http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ#Q:_What_is_the_rationale_behind_the_exclusion_of_WiFi.3F Jul 13 04:03:02 they were afraid we'd give out the answers to the test Jul 13 04:03:14 or something Jul 13 04:03:19 Does you phone have WiFi? (circle one) Jul 13 04:03:19 A) Yes Jul 13 04:03:19 B) No Jul 13 04:03:24 I can just get those online Jul 13 04:03:47 most people have wifi phones? Jul 13 04:03:53 i dont know anybody with a wifi phone Jul 13 04:03:58 My wife, a professor, was just on an essay-writing website. In the FAQ, the question "is it legal?" was answered as: Jul 13 04:04:17 is what legal? Jul 13 04:04:27 "You can always legally buy anything legal that isn't prohibited by law" Jul 13 04:04:40 heh Jul 13 04:04:40 paying for essay writing Jul 13 04:04:41 Oookay. Jul 13 04:04:45 heh Jul 13 04:04:54 Kind of a tautology. Jul 13 04:04:57 many people I work with have wifi phones Jul 13 04:05:04 ever do contract coding via a website? Jul 13 04:05:24 Do we really think the phones will ship on Monday? Jul 13 04:05:25 Is anybosy else experiecing long delays in community list mail delivery? Jul 13 04:05:30 i swear a lot of those cheapo contracts are kiddies trying to get us to do their homework Jul 13 04:05:50 like 1.5-2 hours... Jul 13 04:05:50 wow, iphone doesn't even have wifi Jul 13 04:06:12 uhm, yes is does Jul 13 04:06:31 s/is/it Jul 13 04:06:35 Yes, the iPhone was specifically verboten at my job Jul 13 04:06:38 can you ssh into the iphone? Jul 13 04:06:51 orzo, not on purpose Jul 13 04:06:59 orzo: I think they hacked it... Jul 13 04:06:59 heh Jul 13 04:07:01 apple's purpose, not yours Jul 13 04:07:10 oh, it has wifi, i just misread Jul 13 04:07:30 lets get openmoko on the iphone Jul 13 04:07:30 heh Jul 13 04:07:51 That would be awesome Jul 13 04:08:05 Know anybody with an iPhone we can flash? Jul 13 04:08:10 orzo: better yet, how about we call FIC from an iPhone and find out what the delay is :) Jul 13 04:08:21 ooooooo. Jul 13 04:10:03 att struck a secret deal with fic to cancel the neo Jul 13 04:10:23 orzo: Are they going to ship us iPhones instead? Jul 13 04:10:32 heh Jul 13 04:10:35 would you want them to? Jul 13 04:10:41 Is ATT going to put the same limitations on us as they did the iPhone? Jul 13 04:10:43 orzo: definately not Jul 13 04:10:48 * arachnid wouldn't Jul 13 04:10:49 I'd like multi-though Jul 13 04:10:53 Esp. since they wouldn't work here Jul 13 04:11:01 sagaci2: Er, how would they do that? :) Jul 13 04:11:26 ATT is my carier Jul 13 04:11:28 Sorry. Too much wine. "touch" Jul 13 04:11:33 Mine too Jul 13 04:11:33 orzo: Im sorry Jul 13 04:11:37 i bet tehy'll give me a hard time if i try to activate the neo Jul 13 04:11:43 I've been happy with them (as Cingular) Jul 13 04:11:52 I won't tell them. Jul 13 04:11:52 I meant how would they put restrictions on the Neo Jul 13 04:12:05 They put restrictions on iPhone usage... Jul 13 04:12:06 orzo: How will they tell? Just put an activated sim card into it. Jul 13 04:12:12 they were cingular for me too Jul 13 04:12:15 sagaci2: You could call up there tech support and ask questions about how to get GPRS to work on you Neo, or something Jul 13 04:12:15 Even though they are exclusive Jul 13 04:12:26 sagaci2: Yes, but most of them are enforced by the phone itself Jul 13 04:12:32 heh heh heh Jul 13 04:12:37 In fact, all of them except the threat to cut you off, as far as I know Jul 13 04:13:07 I still hav not seen an iPhone is person Jul 13 04:13:13 I'm sure they would be very good at the tech support telling me how to write software apps for the neo Jul 13 04:13:19 of course, I dont have many friends :( Jul 13 04:13:21 LOL Jul 13 04:13:33 I haven't seen an iPhone either Jul 13 04:13:35 sagaci2: Of course. Jul 13 04:13:40 "Hello? AT&T? Yes, GCC is giving me this weird linker error..." Jul 13 04:13:45 heh Jul 13 04:13:47 rofl Jul 13 04:13:55 *confused silence from the AT&T rep* Jul 13 04:14:22 arachnid: "Please hold, sir while I ssh into your device..." Jul 13 04:14:36 "I'm sorry sir. We'll have to terminate your multi-year contract right now." Jul 13 04:14:58 "After I reflash your device into an iPhone" Jul 13 04:15:07 sag LOl Jul 13 04:15:40 can flashing be done via GSM? Jul 13 04:16:01 I doubt it Jul 13 04:16:08 I bet we could write a way to do it on the neo. See, it's superior in every way! Jul 13 04:16:11 AFAIK, you can't flash it while it's booted Jul 13 04:16:20 orzo: sounds dangerous. Jul 13 04:16:20 (Someone more in the know tell me if I'm wrong here) Jul 13 04:16:22 DishNetwork can reflash over the satellite Jul 13 04:16:27 And you certainly can't use GSM when it's not booted Jul 13 04:16:56 well if you md5 the package before the update it should work Jul 13 04:17:04 I guess you could do it by creating a ramdisk, using pivot_root to move root into the ramdisk, unmounting the original root, then flashing it Jul 13 04:17:20 arachnid: maybe they dlload the image, set a flag, and send a signal to reboot the device/initiate flash utility?. Jul 13 04:17:28 Jason1: True, that could work too Jul 13 04:17:49 Only, wouldn't 'flashing' entail rewriting the storage, including where the image is stored? :) Jul 13 04:18:01 lol, can you imaging the support people, ok open a shell and type vim /etc/... Jul 13 04:18:14 arachnid: details... Jul 13 04:18:15 Anyway ,you could certainly modify arbitrary parts of the fs over gsm, so you could achieve nearly anything you want with that. :) Jul 13 04:18:16 :) Jul 13 04:20:21 hello is this Apache support, well I have java script problem on my NEO1973 GTA02...........yes its a phone..........no I dont smoke crack Jul 13 04:21:50 excellent, OOM on building openmoko :) Jul 13 04:21:58 * ajmitch should add some swap Jul 13 04:23:40 lol Jul 13 04:24:41 ugh the concept of providing tech support for this phone is terrifying Jul 13 04:24:48 i have a suspicion openmoko hasn't really thought of it Jul 13 04:24:55 Not really Jul 13 04:25:05 For end users, it'll be no different in that respect than any other phone Jul 13 04:25:17 yeah the reason the telco lock down the phones is thats the only way they can do any sane support Jul 13 04:25:19 true enough Jul 13 04:25:21 hmm.. all documentation about the samsung s3c2410 seems to have been updated (or simply re-uploaded) just recently, 07/07/07. Jul 13 04:25:27 For developers, or anyone hacking with it, the answer is pretty much "consult the community or deal with it yourself" Jul 13 04:25:31 http://www.samsung.com/global/business/semiconductor/productInfo.do?fmly_id=229&partnum=S3C2410#component03 Jul 13 04:25:51 linux_galore: Computer companies and ISPs deal with totally unlocked computers all the time :) Jul 13 04:26:08 The _main_ reason telcos lock down phones is so they can charge individually for every application Jul 13 04:26:15 Rather than collecting a meager fee as carriers Jul 13 04:26:25 arachnid: yes but they charge $$$$$$$$$$ I cant see a user paying $90 per call for support Jul 13 04:26:50 Depends on who you're talking about Jul 13 04:26:52 ISPs don't Jul 13 04:27:11 yeah but ISP's only do network stuff the rest isnt their problem Jul 13 04:27:26 lots of isps wish they could, then they could be aol Jul 13 04:28:09 linux_galore: Same goes for telcos :) Jul 13 04:29:40 what does the GTA stand for? Jul 13 04:30:28 Grand Theft Auto? Jul 13 04:30:43 arachnid, hell ya Jul 13 04:31:07 heh Jul 13 04:31:30 quinton: GTA where? Jul 13 04:31:46 Oh, right Jul 13 04:31:49 * arachnid doesn't know Jul 13 04:36:25 hmm GPL/GNU Telephone Jul 13 04:36:28 moin Jul 13 04:43:43 I think it means GSM Telephone A just means its the first in the series, now much details that i can see Jul 13 04:43:53 not* Jul 13 04:44:06 thanks for the info Jul 13 04:48:00 Am I the onlyone getting lots of duplicated messages from openmoko-devel? Jul 13 04:48:30 cworth: gmail is causing problems on the community list Jul 13 04:50:03 FWIW, I apologise for my part in it - my domain uses gmail. Jul 13 04:50:10 I just received 6 or 7 copies of a message from Christopher Heiny (Subject: Re: multi-touch in X) with a couple of different data, (3 minutes apart). Jul 13 04:50:16 Oh, and your MTA is bad too, since it should discard messages with duplicate IDs. :) Jul 13 04:51:36 arachnid: Well, there are at least two different IDs here too. Jul 13 04:52:10 Then you should only get two :) Jul 13 04:54:41 arachnid: Yeah, but then how could I generate a good bug report about duplicate messages getting sent. ;-) Jul 13 04:54:56 heh Jul 13 04:55:00 True. :P Jul 13 04:56:01 doesn't the MTA no longer care about that after the mail is delivered to procmail? Jul 13 04:56:38 * ajmitch has procmail filtering out duplicate IDs Jul 13 04:56:57 ajmitch: care to share the recipe? Jul 13 04:57:08 blindcoder: I think the MTA is supposed to filter out duplicates. I could be wrong. Jul 13 04:58:02 I just wish order@opemoko.com would mail instead ;) Jul 13 04:58:28 * CM is anxious to get a new shiny toy Jul 13 04:58:33 Has anyone received an order acceptance yet? Jul 13 04:58:34 * rwhitby uses fastmail.fm which seems to filter out duplicates too Jul 13 04:58:36 http://paste.debian.net/32631 Jul 13 04:58:53 nothing complex, though msgid.cache doesn't need to be nearly that large Jul 13 04:58:57 I presume they haven't processed any orders at all Jul 13 04:59:02 arachnid: nope :( Jul 13 04:59:30 arachnid: I placed the first order. Hopefully I get my notification first :) Jul 13 04:59:43 Funny, if I had several hundred people holding their credit cards out, I'd be in a bit more of a hurry, even if I wasn't shipping until the 16th ;) Jul 13 04:59:45 Maybe they took this week off or something Jul 13 05:00:03 Jason1: Cool. I'm not far behind. :) Jul 13 05:00:07 Or at least doing something completely different Jul 13 05:00:16 CM: Offical FIC holiday Jul 13 05:00:17 arachnid: Behind me.. :P Jul 13 05:00:22 * blindcoder starts packing and then off to worb Jul 13 05:00:23 work Jul 13 05:00:24 bbl Jul 13 05:00:36 CM: What's your number? Jul 13 05:00:45 arachnid: #1821 Jul 13 05:01:08 CM was justa little too slow :) Jul 13 05:01:11 I think they are waiting for customs Jul 13 05:01:19 ah Jul 13 05:01:21 CM: have you heard anything from them yet? Jul 13 05:01:30 gcb77: Not a sound Jul 13 05:01:56 No reply to my mail asking if they could write "Development sample" on the shipping box either Jul 13 05:02:03 gcb77_2: "Not a sound" is becoming all too typical :) Jul 13 05:02:42 Has there been _any_ official communication since orders opened? Jul 13 05:02:43 CM: me neither... I have #1832 Jul 13 05:02:45 On the list, even? Jul 13 05:03:03 CM: yeah some countries have a different import duty on dev samples Jul 13 05:03:07 arachnid: On the community list a bit Jul 13 05:03:22 a blog post here and there... the lists have mostly been offline Jul 13 05:03:29 linux_galore: Exactly.. I'd be happy to save $75 or so Jul 13 05:03:43 I think Sean posted a messageonthe list today Jul 13 05:04:50 Anybody know if the OM team is working on Taiwan time or what? Jul 13 05:04:57 Is their workday just starting? Jul 13 05:05:00 CM: I dont have to pay much here in au for duty thanks to a free trade agreement with the USA Jul 13 05:05:28 No duties on cellphones here Jul 13 05:05:32 But GST is applied Jul 13 05:05:38 If it's over $400 Jul 13 05:05:55 If it's under, or marked as a gift, or (possibly) marked as a sample, it won't get charged, though :) Jul 13 05:06:12 hmm Jul 13 05:06:28 early edition of the GTA02 with sample may get through Jul 13 05:07:31 anyway Im out Jul 13 05:09:50 blindcoder: you around? Jul 13 05:13:10 gcb77: On his way to work Jul 13 05:14:07 I tried the directions he put in the Makefile to get an app Jul 13 05:14:12 worked great Jul 13 05:14:23 Ah, sweet. Jul 13 05:14:51 I wonder if you really need to have a URL, or if you can use file:// Jul 13 05:14:53 gcb77: Did you update any directions or add something to the wiki or was it perfect already? ;) Jul 13 05:15:11 Try and see Jul 13 05:15:21 * CM gets some coffee Jul 13 05:15:27 * xkr47 serves coffee to CM Jul 13 05:15:38 Gevalia ?-) Jul 13 05:15:42 xkr47: :D Jul 13 05:15:49 Hehe Jul 13 05:16:17 instructions worked really good, just got to be patient and follow them Jul 13 05:16:49 * gcb77 does not claim patience as a personal quality Jul 13 05:22:31 /! Jul 13 05:22:34 hmm... Jul 13 05:22:55 * xkr47 is happy that the mailing list is (or at least seems to be) up again Jul 13 05:23:52 very true... for a while I was scared M$ or Apple nuked them Jul 13 05:33:55 people here might be interested in this http://wiki.virtualcogs.com/tiki-view_blog.php?blogId=1 Jul 13 05:40:03 will I be able to switch between neo and my wired speakerphone by switching a button on my speakerphone while riding my motorcycle?1?!?! why?! Jul 13 05:40:47 good morning Jul 13 06:04:59 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[SH1_FAQ]] [[Neo1973:_GTA01Bv4_versus_GTA02_comparison]] [[Talk:Neo1973:_GTA01Bv4_versus_GTA02_comparison]] [[Modular_phone]] [[FAQ]] [[Developer_preview]] [[Direct.openmoko.com_order_process]] [[P1_Owners]] [[Neo1973_Phase_1]] [[MokoMakefile]] and other changes Jul 13 07:06:18 (script) openmoko-community: Sean Moss-Pultz Re: Openmoko ads now on youtube Jul 13 07:07:10 seen it Jul 13 07:10:18 (script) openmoko-community: Sean Moss-Pultz Re: Why iPhone using AJAX was genius Jul 13 07:13:49 morning Jul 13 07:15:20 Am I the only one who is a bit sceptical with using copyrighted material on those ads? Jul 13 07:17:41 hi all Jul 13 07:31:33 http://gburt.blogspot.com/2007/07/openmoko-neo1973-and-iphone.html Jul 13 07:35:22 gcb77: yeah Jul 13 07:38:39 CM cool Jul 13 07:38:46 hard to judge them based on spec Jul 13 07:38:59 I've a hard time figuring on how useful the 2 screens will be Jul 13 07:39:08 i.e. is double the dpi a waste? Jul 13 07:39:35 spikebike: No, don't think it's a waste Jul 13 07:40:00 Let's use all the pixels we can to make this look awesome :D Jul 13 07:40:13 sure Jul 13 07:40:20 And when the dpi is so high, no AA is needed Jul 13 07:40:22 most of my displays are 100 dpi Jul 13 07:40:32 and the iphone is 140 ish Jul 13 07:40:40 and the open moko is 280 ish Jul 13 07:40:50 Yes, 283 Jul 13 07:41:04 I've seen some study on resolution somewhere.. Jul 13 07:41:18 * CM remembers a blue page with yellow text Jul 13 07:44:27 i.e. which is more useful for browsing Jul 13 07:44:33 3.5" screen with 140 dpi? Jul 13 07:44:35 or 2.8 with 280? Jul 13 07:44:52 That might depend on how good your eyesight is.. Jul 13 07:45:18 true Jul 13 07:45:21 and software Jul 13 07:45:49 Yes. My grandma would never be able to read on a 2.8" Jul 13 07:45:52 I love my 800x480 nokia 770 screen Jul 13 07:46:09 How big is that one? Jul 13 07:47:05 maybe a stupid question.. Does anyone of you think (like me) that it would have been better to have a neo1973 stylus that can be put within the phone, as with some palm devices? The stylus is longer than the phone... Jul 13 07:47:37 Slaytani1: I'd defintely prefer that too Jul 13 07:47:47 Slaytani1, yep Jul 13 07:47:51 Like the Qtec ones have Jul 13 07:48:01 Slaytani1, definitely Jul 13 07:48:13 but its the first openmoko device, cant expect everything to be perfect Jul 13 07:49:06 800x480 4.13 inch Jul 13 07:49:20 is a stylus necessary? Jul 13 07:49:21 Slaytani1: probably what everyone else thinks, too Jul 13 07:49:23 yes.. you have far more precision with the stylus than with your fingers, so it is something that I'd like to have always with me, when using the neo1973.. maybe I will go around with the Advanced box to carry all the phone's stuff :D Jul 13 07:49:24 how about a finger? Jul 13 07:49:43 spikebike, some apps use one, some the other Jul 13 07:49:48 ah Jul 13 07:49:51 I hope the screen is fairly scratch resistant Jul 13 07:49:55 but since we make the apps, we can do whatever we want :) Jul 13 07:50:04 I'd prolly just drop one in my pocket and one in my fanny pack Jul 13 07:50:24 I can't wait 'till October :) Jul 13 07:50:41 i wouldnt hold your breath about it being out then Jul 13 07:50:45 here's hoping it is oct Jul 13 07:50:55 yep, we can hope Jul 13 07:50:56 you have precision with a finger also, problem is you obscure half of screen with it =) Jul 13 07:51:06 (in the meanwhile, I'll try to build openmoko-devel-image O_o... it still fails o_O) Jul 13 07:51:21 I've seen tiny bluetooth keyboards... TINY Jul 13 07:51:30 i.e. size of a treo 650 keyboard or smaller Jul 13 07:52:46 oct, dec, always hard to keep those two apart ;) Jul 13 07:52:47 Yes, there's credid-card sized ones Jul 13 07:52:58 so someone was saying the video accelerator is propietary Jul 13 07:53:07 and programming docs are nda bound. Jul 13 07:53:11 Hmm.. Jul 13 07:53:13 (for the gta02) Jul 13 07:53:25 What I've heard is that the drivers are not complete yet Jul 13 07:53:35 But that they will be open source Jul 13 07:53:46 right, but only FIC can work on em Jul 13 07:54:10 (if what I heard is correct) Jul 13 07:54:28 seems kinda strange Jul 13 07:54:40 although I'll have to review the specs Jul 13 07:54:47 mickeyl: What's the status of the graphics drivers for GTA02? All docs under NDA? Jul 13 07:54:49 I thought video access was already in most embedded gpus Jul 13 07:55:17 the chip however did sound pretty slick, mpeg, 2d, and 3d Jul 13 07:56:01 just scary that FIC might leave out something major and the community can't help Jul 13 07:56:15 I'm sure they'll do all the cyan Jul 13 07:56:16 can Jul 13 07:56:27 after all what is the business case for 3d on a relatively low volume phone Jul 13 07:56:39 And they did look around for a long time before they got the hands on this chip Jul 13 07:57:40 spikebike: Is there a big difference having the 770 instead of 800? Jul 13 07:57:53 I mean in regards to updates and such. Jul 13 07:57:55 depends, what do you want to do? Jul 13 07:58:00 oh, minimal Jul 13 07:58:06 Ok, nice Jul 13 07:58:09 IT2007 is available for the 770 for instance Jul 13 07:58:29 I know it's slower and less memory and so, just wondered if they dropped all interest in it Jul 13 07:58:31 apps commonly come out for both at the same time Jul 13 07:58:35 :) Jul 13 07:58:37 nah it's doubled or so Jul 13 07:58:42 770's just taking off Jul 13 07:58:59 I'm guessing it's not going to be like that for GTA01 since it's really a dev-device Jul 13 07:59:11 $129 they are flying off the shelves Jul 13 07:59:12 770 was for consumers from the start Jul 13 07:59:44 not to mention it has better power management, nicer to use, and more durable Jul 13 08:00:21 I wish they brought out a 780 Jul 13 08:00:29 double the ram/flash and a faster cpu Jul 13 08:00:33 and then leave everything else the same Jul 13 08:04:50 CM: N800 screen goes really scratchy if you use stylus Jul 13 08:04:58 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[SH1_FAQ]] [[OpenMoko:Community_Portal]] [[Main_Page/de]] [[Talk:P1_Owners]] [[Talk:MokoMakefile]] [[Talk:Neo1973:_GTA01Bv4_versus_GTA02_comparison]] [[Category:Neo1973_Hardware/ru]] [[Group_Order]] [[Introduction/ru]] Jul 13 08:05:07 taneli: Ouch, that sucks. Hope the Neo is better Jul 13 08:05:07 770 not so Jul 13 08:07:07 Can't buy a 770 in Sweden, and the N800 is more than $500 Jul 13 08:07:16 yeah the n800 is $400 here Jul 13 08:07:32 if it was $200 it would be tempting (vs a $129 nokia 770) Jul 13 08:07:43 maybe get a 800 for home use and a 770 for use on the road Jul 13 08:07:53 but at $400.. it's just not worth it Jul 13 08:08:11 * CM gets more coffee Jul 13 08:08:18 same screen, longer battery life, same OS, more durable, etc. Jul 13 08:16:57 hello Jul 13 08:17:51 Can I ask some questions? Jul 13 08:17:51 CorsaiR: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.) Jul 13 08:18:13 heh Jul 13 08:19:00 okay Jul 13 08:28:01 hi guys Jul 13 08:33:09 <\u72ac> hello all Jul 13 08:33:09 Hullo. Jul 13 08:33:35 <\u72ac> I have a build failure: http://www.pastebin.ca/617474 Jul 13 08:43:46 <\u72ac> anyone else seen this? Jul 13 08:43:46 \u72ac: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.) Jul 13 08:46:01 * \u72ac is following instructions at http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/MokoMakefile#Reporting_Problems Jul 13 08:53:43 \u72ac: I've heard others having that problem, but I don't remember what the solution was Jul 13 08:58:56 meh, debugging a segfault without debugging symbols is hard :( Jul 13 09:09:43 hi all Jul 13 09:15:00 CM: The drivers aren't under NDA. The chipset docs - over the 2 page info sheet - are under NDA. Jul 13 09:16:28 CM: There is hope that for P3, if volume is large enough for P2 that they may be able to convince smedia to provide docs and possibly docs for the more advanced version with a little DSP Jul 13 09:16:56 (From mick eyl) Jul 13 09:21:51 SpeedEvil, but if the docs are under a NDA, and a driver is written from them would the resulting driver have to be closed-source? Jul 13 09:22:25 generally, no Jul 13 09:22:29 yes, that's silly Jul 13 09:22:35 that's the hw manufacturers for you Jul 13 09:22:52 goes to show just old school those folks really are Jul 13 09:26:37 i dont think i will ever understand why chip docs are NDAed Jul 13 09:27:48 look at the pointy hair Jul 13 09:28:30 but there's tons of stuff like that going on Jul 13 09:29:05 for a uni paper, a friend of mine had to analyze risk assessment surveys of banks. they wouldnt give them to him, but hand them to anyone who walks in their doors Jul 13 09:29:55 so obviously he scheduled an advisory talk with all of them, costing them 1000s of eur just to get the stupid surveys Jul 13 09:30:35 you though PHBs only existed in tech companies? Jul 13 09:30:59 pointy headed bastards ? :) Jul 13 09:31:24 I have a question about bugzilla etiquette: if I upload a new patch that supercedes and earlier one that I posted, should i remove the original? Jul 13 09:31:27 bosses, but whichever Jul 13 09:32:12 oh, dilbert Jul 13 09:32:15 heh Jul 13 09:37:05 good morning Jul 13 09:37:07 cibomahto: you can mark the old patch as obsolete AFAIK Jul 13 09:38:31 morning all Jul 13 09:38:34 how are we? Jul 13 09:39:33 cesarb: thanks! that works well. and, goodnight Jul 13 09:43:29 mjr: actually, i expect MORE of them in banks Jul 13 09:43:33 Um, anyone know how to stop this: http://rafb.net/p/rbBjN952.html Jul 13 09:58:40 * SpeedEvil sighs. Jul 13 09:58:53 Just corrected - upwards - the price of a modular phone. Jul 13 09:58:53 * ewon joins SpeedEvil in sighing Jul 13 09:59:05 ? Jul 13 09:59:15 I wish it was possible to do it cheaper. Jul 13 09:59:33 got pricing for the gumstix phones? Jul 13 10:00:01 No, I see no reason for it to be less than gumstix - but there were lots of missing bits. Jul 13 10:00:03 err Jul 13 10:00:08 less than sparkfun - $150 Jul 13 10:00:12 hi, could anyone help me with setting up openmoko to run on desktop? It doesn't seem to be loading the openMoko theme icons. Jul 13 10:00:23 The case, battery, buttons, ... Jul 13 10:07:22 tom _ keep getting failures on freetype.. Jul 13 10:09:07 arrgh, what is wrong with my irssi.. can't seem to be able to read anything said in here Jul 13 10:10:08 Can you read this? Jul 13 10:10:12 Oh - prolly not. Jul 13 10:14:22 Is anyone actually using any bluetooth functionality on Neo1973? Jul 13 10:14:51 *g* hm Jul 13 10:15:17 someone told me he used his sony kxx as keyboard over bt Jul 13 10:16:36 woglinde: I know that thing. I am specifically looking for how bluetooth works in Neo. Jul 13 10:16:53 As bluetooth works in linux. Jul 13 10:16:57 yeah Jul 13 10:17:00 bluez Jul 13 10:17:13 kernelmodules and userspace programms Jul 13 10:17:22 SpeedEvil: Is the pin agent included? I mean bluez-gnome? Jul 13 10:17:32 woglinde: ^^ Jul 13 10:17:42 Bluez is the bluetooth bit Jul 13 10:17:54 The answer to almost all software questions is 'no'. There is very little working software - the dialer just about works. Jul 13 10:18:05 Various stuff may not work. Jul 13 10:18:49 SpeedEvil: Ok. That is what I wanted to know. So this means the pairing is not actually possible as there is no program to handle device discovery & pairing. Jul 13 10:19:10 Dialing is barely possible. Jul 13 10:19:21 You can do anything you want command-line. Jul 13 10:19:21 SpeedEvil: :-) Jul 13 10:19:32 Or install any suitable X config program Jul 13 10:19:43 GTK stuff that is. Jul 13 10:21:14 You certainly don't want to install gnome. Jul 13 10:21:15 SpeedEvil: Ok. One more question. What is approach of developing an application if I don't own hardware. Will it possible to release binaries (and not only source) without hardware? Jul 13 10:21:24 Sure. Jul 13 10:21:43 Just get the toolchain as mentioned on the wiki. Jul 13 10:21:47 Test it in the emulator. Jul 13 10:21:56 Profit! Jul 13 10:22:17 Of course, people may then be spurred to implement whatever you've done as free software. Jul 13 10:22:36 You may find hardware of use for testing. Jul 13 10:22:52 If only becasue you prolly don't have a 280DPI touchscreen Jul 13 10:23:01 what sort of software are youthinking of? Jul 13 10:23:05 SpeedEvil: I will be doing it as Freeware. I wondered how to provide the packages. Also right now I don't have enough money to buy hardware. Jul 13 10:23:13 Ah. Jul 13 10:23:34 slytherin: Why not release it opensource? Jul 13 10:24:27 ewanm89_laptop: Ok. I meant open source by Freeware. Otherwise I would have said freeware. :-) Jul 13 10:24:32 Hi, someone received the "Payment received email"? Jul 13 10:25:05 Not and said so. Jul 13 10:25:57 slytherin: ipkg is the default package management system. Jul 13 10:26:34 SpeedEvil: I explained the concept here yesterday. I want to make a bluetooth remote control using HID profile of bluetooth. Of course there are many things I want to explore. If my app is good enough then I may get people with real hardware as testers. :-) Jul 13 10:26:48 ewanm89_laptop: hmm. I need to learn lot. :-) Jul 13 10:27:28 slytherin: lol, bitbake compiles to this by default (It's too easy). Jul 13 10:27:57 Ah. Many people have had that thought. Jul 13 10:28:10 'wiimote' is a common thought for P2 Jul 13 10:28:26 Compared to .deb and .rpm it is. Jul 13 10:28:50 Any one know what to do about this: http://rafb.net/p/rbBjN952.html Jul 13 10:29:05 s/Any /Any/ Jul 13 10:29:06 ewanm89_laptop meant: Anyone know what to do about this: http://rafb.net/p/rbBjN952.html Jul 13 10:29:19 SpeedEvil: Do you know any one already working on that? I mean other than those guys creating mythtv remote? My idea is a rip off of a similar app found on sony ericsson phones. Jul 13 10:29:25 No. Jul 13 10:30:06 Wacky. I'd almost expect this on a chinglish site. Jul 13 10:30:08 Siemens. Jul 13 10:30:18 'The worlds most treasured Tri-band GSM/GPRS modules' Jul 13 10:31:08 good morning Jul 13 10:31:15 Morning Jul 13 10:31:46 Um, I'll need to add pam to have full user support? Jul 13 10:35:58 what you mean with full user support? Jul 13 10:36:21 you can compile busybox with /etc/shadow support Jul 13 10:36:50 woglinde: But I would still ne libpam for sudo? Jul 13 10:38:13 oh sudo Jul 13 10:38:17 hm Jul 13 10:38:47 hm google says busybox has sudo support Jul 13 10:39:14 args no Jul 13 10:39:17 sorry Jul 13 10:39:18 Hi y'all! Jul 13 10:39:38 has anyone managed to build with mokomakefile on ubuntu gutsy? Jul 13 10:39:53 freskog_work: What's the problem? Jul 13 10:40:16 but sudo doesnt need pam Jul 13 10:40:27 if I read the buildroot config right Jul 13 10:40:30 woglinde: So I found in sudo docs. Jul 13 10:40:31 for sudo Jul 13 10:40:42 ewanm89_laptop: seems to fail everytime at coreutils-native Jul 13 10:40:55 freskog_work: Error? Jul 13 10:41:07 seems like the field futimens gets defined twice Jul 13 10:41:19 (can't paste the error, at work right now :) Jul 13 10:43:21 ewanm89_laptop: could this be the bug that people had when trying to build with a kernel > 2.6.20 ? Jul 13 10:43:59 That's the page.h bug (I've had it). Jul 13 10:44:11 It's with perl-native. Jul 13 10:44:35 ewanm89_laptop: How did you fix it? Jul 13 10:44:58 I made a soft link of the header file. Jul 13 10:45:17 ewanm89_laptop: from where to where? Jul 13 10:46:11 freskog_work: Kernel source to /usr/include/asm/ Jul 13 10:46:35 the entire directory ? Jul 13 10:47:14 freskog_work: No, page.h Jul 13 10:47:24 ok. Jul 13 10:47:32 i'll try it when I get back home. Jul 13 10:47:36 thanks for the tip! Jul 13 10:48:55 Is it possible to run the dev environment on Windows? Jul 13 10:49:38 No Jul 13 10:49:47 Well - in theory. Jul 13 10:49:55 Yes, start an X server, use Gtk, and cygwin Jul 13 10:50:02 you can always port stuff :] Jul 13 10:50:04 You'd need to do lots of 'minor' porting Jul 13 10:50:32 SpeedEvil: The difference between theory and practical is more in practical than in theory. :-) Jul 13 10:56:05 oh, LaF0rge was here, was too slow in catching logs .. Jul 13 11:02:26 slytherin: It would be easier to install a distro in a VM. Jul 13 11:03:43 The GSM antenna is at the bottom in use? Jul 13 11:04:25 Just working out the comment on the deletion of someone referring to the fake 'cook an egg with two phones' thing. Jul 13 11:04:50 ewanm89_laptop: Will wait for my own PC to power up again. :-0 Jul 13 11:05:35 ewanm89_laptop, now could you create a "super" neo in the emulator and do the directly on it ?-) Jul 13 11:05:49 the development, that is Jul 13 11:06:09 does bitbake search through openmoko tree then openemmbedded when looking for a RDEPENDS_...? Jul 13 11:06:36 tuukkah: Um, I'm having trouble doing something similar here. Jul 13 11:07:03 tuxhacker Jul 13 11:08:22 what's that? Jul 13 11:08:47 tuukkah: Bitbake files? Jul 13 11:09:29 tuxhacker? Jul 13 11:10:13 Sorry was trying to jion that channel and missed out th j after the / Jul 13 11:10:20 s/io/oi/ Jul 13 11:10:20 ewanm89_laptop meant: Sorry was trying to join that channel and missed out th j after the / Jul 13 11:10:43 oh =) Jul 13 11:11:39 Anyone have any idea on the way bitbake handles finding the specified RDEPENDS_ ? Jul 13 11:33:27 Hmm. Jul 13 11:33:36 Actual orderable UMTS/HDSPA modules. Jul 13 11:33:46 http://www.jandrew-elec.com/acatalog/Siemens_GSM_GPRS_EDGE_Modules.html Jul 13 11:35:17 Not cheap though. Jul 13 11:35:18 HC25 Quad Band Module offering Quad Band GSM/GPRS/EDGE and Tri-band UMTS/HSDPA functionality. Jul 13 11:35:25 200e Jul 13 11:37:13 oo Jul 13 11:37:29 I'll happily shell out 200e on top of neo price for such-equipped phone ;) Jul 13 11:37:49 mixes GTA01B_v04 and GTA02 (and doesn't know about existing "Free your phone!" phase): http://www.informationweek.com/blog/main/archives/2007/07/an_iphone_for_h.html Jul 13 11:38:15 mjr: but... Jul 13 11:38:34 mjr: I don't know if it would actually be connectable to the neo. Jul 13 11:40:32 Ah - yes. Jul 13 11:40:40 'technical specification' Jul 13 11:40:45 It has a 2 page PDF. Jul 13 11:40:51 With no details. Jul 13 11:41:36 SpeedEvil: That sounds about right. Jul 13 11:41:59 Interesting to see if the vendor'd respond to further info requests though. Jul 13 11:42:20 It _might_ be usable over USB1.1 - it says it can be talked to via AT mode. Jul 13 11:42:39 no details... sounds pretty much like siemens :-D Jul 13 11:44:51 SpeedEvil, I actually meant when FIC slap such a module onto a future model, though now that you mention it... *hmm* ;] Jul 13 11:46:37 Ah. Jul 13 11:46:42 Well - it's quite large. Jul 13 11:46:54 And the price would be considerably less if you order 10K Jul 13 11:47:03 I'd guess half to 60% Jul 13 11:50:17 kind of 'happy' problem: "But right now we're just too overwhelmed trying to handle all these orders and server load." http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2007-July/006734.html Jul 13 11:51:58 :D Jul 13 11:54:14 Does anyone know if there is any plan for porting of minimo? Jul 13 11:55:46 slytherin: It wasn't from the start, and it was badly maintained, but apperently there's some new life in it now. Jul 13 11:56:00 I think minimo is availible in oe, but I'm not sure Jul 13 11:56:09 No "porting" needed Jul 13 11:56:17 CM: Glad to hear that. :-) Jul 13 11:56:27 The focus is on webkit with gtk Jul 13 11:56:40 slytherin: zecke is working on that Jul 13 11:56:58 CM: Any particular reason why webkit? I mean what about gtkhtml? Jul 13 11:57:15 heh Jul 13 11:57:20 gtkhtml Jul 13 11:57:26 koen|edinburgh: Hehe ;) Jul 13 11:57:33 which incompatible incarnation of gtkhtml? Jul 13 11:57:33 * CM listens to koen Jul 13 11:57:45 1,2, 3, 3.2? Jul 13 11:57:53 (they all suck, btw) Jul 13 11:57:55 koen|edinburgh: I am not very knowledged about it. Just asking Jul 13 12:00:55 does bitbake search through openmoko tree then openemmbedded when looking for a RDEPENDS_...? Does it search both openmoko and openembedded trees? Jul 13 12:06:42 ewanm89_laptop, you should probably experiment since no-one seems to know Jul 13 12:07:41 moin ihrz allez Jul 13 12:16:18 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[SH1_FAQ]] [[Wish_List]] [[IM_Presence/it]] [[GSM_%26_GPRS_Connection_Status/it]] [[System_Info/it]] [[Code_Memo/it]] [[Web_Browser/it]] [[Unit_Converter/it]] [[Profiles_%28Application%29/it]] [[Terminal/it]] [[OpenMoko/it]] [[Buying_Interest_List]] and other changes Jul 13 12:16:50 Quote of the day: *One can not underestimate the "Eat Your Own Dogshit" approach to development.* - Jeroen van der Zijp of www.fox-toolkit.org Jul 13 12:17:03 tuukkah: While I've been asking mokomakefile has been compiling a test. Flashing qemu now. Jul 13 12:17:11 * CM would suggest trying the dogfood instead Jul 13 12:17:24 hi, is it possible to encrypt speech on a neo phone and to decrypt it on the partners neo? Jul 13 12:18:02 XXLT: not over GSM Jul 13 12:18:04 XXLT: Don't think so since the data transfer is awfully slow Jul 13 12:18:15 mmh Jul 13 12:19:12 but maybe it is possible to "translate" normal speech into a kind of sounds, to transfer them via gsm and to decrypt them on the receivers phone Jul 13 12:20:39 Now that is a nice idea Jul 13 12:20:50 Encrypted voice traffic Jul 13 12:20:55 yeah Jul 13 12:21:03 for sure sender and receiver must have the same key Jul 13 12:21:11 I'm thinking it could be difficult Jul 13 12:21:30 It's not easy to decrypt when some parts are missing Jul 13 12:21:46 Not sure how you could implement it though, it is easy to get the voice data through a program and out the other end Jul 13 12:21:57 the hard bit would be actually encrypting voice traffic Jul 13 12:22:16 and the signal processing might be too much for the processor Jul 13 12:22:29 Nah, i doubt it Jul 13 12:22:35 Atleast not for the GTA02 Jul 13 12:23:31 XXLT: That in theory would be possible, but that sort of modulation would be very processor intensive. Jul 13 12:23:46 Is there any process by which a project will get included in official distribution? Jul 13 12:24:13 http://seussbeta.tripod.com/crypt.html Jul 13 12:24:16 An interesting page Jul 13 12:24:35 well, i just had the idea :) Jul 13 12:24:51 i think it depends on how strong the encryption is Jul 13 12:24:55 Scrambling would be easy Jul 13 12:25:06 Actual encryption.... Jul 13 12:25:09 Would be hard Jul 13 12:25:36 Then modulating it, how much lag do you want? Jul 13 12:26:20 It has been suggested as possible for voip over wifi. Jul 13 12:34:20 slytherin: no process yet Jul 13 12:35:50 <_diego_> scrambling + gsm + degsm + descrambling? I wonder how it sound at the end ... Jul 13 12:40:46 slytherin: Just make the app so good that they can't resist using it ;) Jul 13 12:41:12 CM: I hope I will be able to do that in 3 months timeframe. :-) Jul 13 13:13:42 has anyone had success with the mokomakefile this week Jul 13 13:14:13 it worked for me on sat - but then I had a hd crash - and since then it's been failing all over the shop - first at uboot (which I resolved) and now at freetype Jul 13 13:14:35 It worked both yesterday and today for me Jul 13 13:15:02 Building the flash image. Native doesn't build on amd64 for me though, and it never has Jul 13 13:16:33 CM: you mean gettext-native? Jul 13 13:17:13 thomasg_gpm: And others too. Not sure what it failed on last time I tried Jul 13 13:17:31 CM: same problem for mee Jul 13 13:17:32 *me Jul 13 13:18:39 Some blame gentoo, since native builds work on 32-bit Debian and CentOS Jul 13 13:19:13 It's working here on gentoo. Jul 13 13:19:15 Don't need the native though, qemu works. And soon I'll have a Neo too! :D Jul 13 13:19:29 ewanm89_laptop: To build native 64-bit? Jul 13 13:19:37 But, I'm using qemu. Jul 13 13:19:42 I mean native as in arch x86_64 Jul 13 13:19:54 No, I'm not. Jul 13 13:19:58 Same here, and that works fine yes. Jul 13 13:21:24 hmm, time to install a moko dev environment I suppose Jul 13 13:21:49 inside my 32-bit chroot, I gather Jul 13 13:22:31 mjr: Only if you really need the performance boost from psyco. Jul 13 13:22:50 s/./when compiling./ Jul 13 13:22:50 ewanm89_laptop meant: mjr: Only if you really need the performance boost from psycowhen compiling. Jul 13 13:23:21 does anyone else have problems running openmoko on pc? I seem to have problems with icons, I have followed wiki few times now from scratch and each time the icons don't load in chrooted system. Jul 13 13:23:28 I don't; should work on 64-bit Ubuntu, then? Jul 13 13:25:02 mjr: Should do. Jul 13 13:25:28 tom_: The icons in the menus are broken. Jul 13 13:25:55 ewanm89_laptop: also the icons in main windows buttons? Jul 13 13:27:26 I'll do a couple of screenshots. Jul 13 13:27:42 Bascly it's gtk warning that no icons in /usr/share/icons are found, not even "hicolor" themes icons. :/ Jul 13 13:34:25 CM, you're under gentoo amd64? Jul 13 13:37:16 * ewanm89_laptop is using 64bit gentoo Jul 13 13:38:48 ewanm89_laptop, and did you get openmoko with the ommakefile working? Jul 13 13:39:27 Is that suppose to be mokomakefile? Jul 13 13:40:02 If so, it's working atm, what's the error? Jul 13 13:40:44 at moment gettext-native won't build Jul 13 13:41:06 Exact error message? Jul 13 13:41:13 pastebin? Jul 13 13:41:41 mom Jul 13 13:43:27 http://phpfi.com/249490 Jul 13 13:47:59 For those of you around earlier yes bitbake checks openmoko then openembedded tree. Jul 13 13:49:01 thomasg_gpm: What java are you using? Jul 13 13:49:25 s/java/java vm/ Jul 13 13:49:26 ewanm89_laptop meant: thomasg_gpm: What java vm are you using? Jul 13 13:50:17 afk Jul 13 13:52:05 1.6.0 (main) and 1.5.0 (additional) Jul 13 13:54:19 thomasg_gpm: Do you have ant or simmilar installed Jul 13 13:57:34 thomasg_gpm: It's working here with blackdown. Jul 13 13:58:42 hm Jul 13 13:59:53 http://rafb.net/p/kr3twQ19.html Jul 13 14:00:00 thomasg_gpm: I'm using Sun JDK 1.6.0.02 Jul 13 14:02:03 But I have blackdown installed for java-1 Jul 13 14:06:14 CM, oops, I made a mistake. I'm using jre-1.6, but still jdk-1.5 Jul 13 14:06:24 I'll update to 1.6 Jul 13 14:08:52 thomas hm yes common error Jul 13 14:09:16 woglinde: So it works with 1.6 but not 1.5? Jul 13 14:10:03 cm no mixing jre and sdk up Jul 13 14:10:12 especially under windows Jul 13 14:10:13 Ah, for sure :) Jul 13 14:13:22 dih dum, mokomakefile working its magic... Jul 13 14:16:39 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[User:Minime]] [[IPhone]] [[BuggyOrders]] [[Category:Neo1973_Hardware]] [[IPhone_%28GTA01%29]] [[Wishlist:Neo1973_P0_Review]] [[SH1_FAQ]] [[Talk:Modular_phone]] [[Feed_Reader]] [[OpenMoko_under_QEMU/it]] [[Talk:Main_Page]] [[Group_Order]] and other changes Jul 13 14:19:16 woglinde, well, I'm definately NOT under windows, just to clarify this :) Jul 13 14:24:03 howdy Jul 13 14:24:50 I'm trying to make qemu from the moko makefile, but it says I need gcc 3 Jul 13 14:25:05 But I don't particularly want to install gcc 3 just for this, is it "safe" to use 4? Jul 13 14:25:52 * raster picks his moko Jul 13 14:25:57 hi all Jul 13 14:26:39 howdy Jul 13 14:28:24 dtx no Jul 13 14:28:25 any progress on the openmoko vmware image or binary? Jul 13 14:28:46 i would love to dev for open moko... Jul 13 14:28:56 but does the price seem steep to anyone? Jul 13 14:29:11 no Jul 13 14:29:16 nope Jul 13 14:29:21 well, except for the shipping part Jul 13 14:29:38 yeah, shipping is a bit ridiculous Jul 13 14:29:54 ouch... haven't looked at that yet Jul 13 14:29:59 Ycros: you have one? Jul 13 14:30:10 I've ordered one Jul 13 14:30:17 if you're in US, you have sane shipping price, otherwise not... Jul 13 14:30:37 but what the hell Jul 13 14:30:47 Ycros: how much all up? Jul 13 14:31:02 also, if you don't want to shell out for the phone, openmoko is even free as in beer :þ Jul 13 14:31:05 80 bucks Jul 13 14:31:26 yeah, 80 USD Jul 13 14:31:27 shipping price Jul 13 14:31:46 all up? ;) - i assume thats shipping Jul 13 14:31:50 thats..... alot Jul 13 14:31:51 yes, that's shipping Jul 13 14:31:55 you can add, right? ;) Jul 13 14:32:38 I don't want/can't to pay $450 :( Jul 13 14:32:59 Look at [[Group Order]] on the wiki Jul 13 14:33:17 Post that you are organising one for your country if none. Jul 13 14:33:24 daurnimator, oh, sure, if you want the advanced one Jul 13 14:33:27 I'm getting the base Jul 13 14:33:47 If you don't know why you need the advanced one, you don't need it. Jul 13 14:33:51 i'll be in the states 'till Oct 6th, I guess I'll place an order there. Jul 13 14:34:30 Ycros: thats AU$450 Jul 13 14:34:36 SpeedEvil, damn right, most people won't need it Jul 13 14:34:48 - including postage Jul 13 14:34:58 daurnimator, what's 300 + 80 ? Jul 13 14:35:10 SpeedEvil, but it does come with a nice looking toolbox Jul 13 14:35:16 (US$300 + US$80)/.86 = ~AU$450 Jul 13 14:35:24 daurnimator, oh, au, ha Jul 13 14:36:43 since when do you work in USD Jul 13 14:37:23 sorry, I just assumed you were talking USD Jul 13 14:38:08 anyway... it seems way to expensive Jul 13 14:38:15 specially with shipping.... Jul 13 14:38:31 eg, my OSD cost joe US$16 to send to me Jul 13 14:39:04 do you actually have some sort of idea of what this kind of devices cost generally? Jul 13 14:39:10 hint: it aint' cheaper Jul 13 14:39:52 well, do I compare it to a pda or a mobile? Jul 13 14:40:03 pda+mobile Jul 13 14:40:06 both Jul 13 14:40:12 because it is both Jul 13 14:40:36 I'm just happy that they price it in USD, since that's cheap in Swedish kronor Jul 13 14:40:38 (script) openmoko-community: Sean Moss-Pultz Re: "Open Source In Mobile (OSiM)" conference, September, Spain Jul 13 14:40:50 ~change 1 USD to SEK Jul 13 14:40:52 CM: same for euro :) Jul 13 14:41:04 yeah, dollar is weak overall Jul 13 14:41:04 1 EUR = 1.34 USD Jul 13 14:41:13 as said, it compensates the high shipping nicely Jul 13 14:41:20 definately Jul 13 14:41:49 and including shipping (for 3 persons) and VAT (19% in germany) the neo will stay at under EUR300 Jul 13 14:42:07 Well, we do have Mr. Cookabonanza in the white house spending like crazy, so no surprises there Jul 13 14:42:14 anyway.... is there anyway to bring the cost down? Jul 13 14:42:26 probably not Jul 13 14:42:33 daurnimator, share shipping costs with others Jul 13 14:42:35 and if we have luck, they will not charge VAT for the neos, so it will be about EUR250 (thats damn cheap!) Jul 13 14:42:44 student price or something? Jul 13 14:43:02 erm $300 is damn cheap -.- Jul 13 14:43:24 daurnimator, it's already devel discounted from $350, man Jul 13 14:43:29 don't be ridiculous Jul 13 14:43:32 I've never seen that the customs miss to get VAT added, unless you try to avoid it by sending as gift etc Jul 13 14:44:04 Fatal, the gift thing mostly doesn't work, but the neo is declared as non-working prototype, this could be a chance Jul 13 14:44:08 (in swe) Jul 13 14:44:17 thomasg_gpm: interesting, maybe Jul 13 14:44:34 thomasg_gpm, it works from the us to .de Jul 13 14:44:41 did that more than once to know that Jul 13 14:44:42 :> Jul 13 14:44:58 yeah, it's already damn cheap Jul 13 14:44:59 also declare the value below 20$ Jul 13 14:45:00 =) Jul 13 14:45:22 phrozen77, yeah, but when they open (what afaik often happens) the package they'll know :) Jul 13 14:45:24 ;) Jul 13 14:45:30 daurnimator, one can understand if $300 seems high for a student, but that's not because it's a high price for this item, that's because students can't afford everything they want Jul 13 14:45:41 heh, how would they know that its not broken beyond belief? :P Jul 13 14:45:49 we imported some earphones from the states and let the company declare it as gift. didnt work. Jul 13 14:45:52 wow, lxer is a piece of shit Jul 13 14:46:00 mjr: true - Most similar products I buy with weird discount stuff Jul 13 14:46:08 thomasg_gpm, might very well have been luck in my cases Jul 13 14:46:12 or of course.. good old ebay Jul 13 14:46:12 a rumor rag without by-lines Jul 13 14:46:20 phrozen77, guess so Jul 13 14:46:43 but so or so, EUR 300 is ok for the neo, and I'm willing to pay this for get one :) Jul 13 14:46:48 do open moko have code "bounties" - Ycros: you know what I mean :P Jul 13 14:46:49 absolutely Jul 13 14:47:12 i'll wait for the gta02, though Jul 13 14:47:22 daurn, openmoko.com isn't paying for any so far as we know, but don't let that stop you Jul 13 14:47:27 needs some masochism though :P Jul 13 14:47:42 what, isn't geekfame enough of a carrot? :) Jul 13 14:47:44 i get a little frustrated with all these "does openmoko have?" questions Jul 13 14:47:50 lol Jul 13 14:47:57 openmoko is soylent green, openmoko is you. if you do it, openmoko has it. Jul 13 14:47:58 Why? Isn't the answer, "No!"? Jul 13 14:48:02 galexande: does openmoko have more 'does openmoko have' questions? Jul 13 14:48:04 who is funding or the head of this thing? Jul 13 14:48:07 42! Jul 13 14:48:36 daurnimator, FIC is footing the development bills Jul 13 14:50:10 Does openmoko have a soul? Jul 13 14:50:20 also, how long is estimated until we have a workable UI for day to day use? Jul 13 14:50:31 daurn, how long will it take you to write one? Jul 13 14:50:39 (ie, you can make calls, send sms, have a stable phone book, battery managament etc) Jul 13 14:50:47 daurnimator, read the wiki Jul 13 14:50:54 galexande: I'd have to get a good look at the device first :P Jul 13 14:51:02 massmarketing in oct with the gta02 Jul 13 14:51:11 then it'll be ready for mom dad and the dog Jul 13 14:51:22 i estimate it will take about a month and a half for me to develop enough UI for me to use the phone daily Jul 13 14:51:29 I reckon it'll take longer than that Jul 13 14:51:35 assuming the background libs are strong enough Jul 13 14:52:51 also, is the hardware expected to change (much?) until public release - or is hardware finalised? Jul 13 14:53:05 daurnimator, argh, answers are all up there on the wiki and stuff Jul 13 14:53:10 daurn, http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/announce/2007-June/000013.html Jul 13 14:53:15 daurnimator: that's also on the wiki :) Jul 13 14:53:27 rtfw! Jul 13 14:53:29 I'm reading the wiki and I'm not finding much :S Jul 13 14:53:32 hehe - I'm impressed with the patience most people have Jul 13 14:53:38 open your eyes then :P Jul 13 14:53:39 also Jul 13 14:53:42 * Sup3rkiddo votes for a /topic change Jul 13 14:53:44 daurnimator: you're obviously looking in the wrong places.. Jul 13 14:53:45 reading -> understanding Jul 13 14:53:50 yeah.. everything is up there Jul 13 14:53:50 makes all the difference Jul 13 14:53:55 getting slashdotted is a hard line to toe Jul 13 14:54:03 did they? Jul 13 14:54:13 patience too - you have til october to find your answers :p Jul 13 14:54:19 daurnimator: P2 == release platform. See [[Neo1973]] Jul 13 14:54:22 daurnimator: the frustration is high here, been the same questions over and over for the past week :) Jul 13 14:54:32 heh Jul 13 14:54:36 RTFM is the best advice :) Jul 13 14:54:48 rtfw! <-- Jul 13 14:54:49 why is laf0rge feeling so aggressive on his new blog post? is there some new roadblock on openmoko development? Jul 13 14:54:57 Burnout. Jul 13 14:54:59 Impending. Jul 13 14:55:01 and you didn't make an irc bot to resight the FAQ url? Jul 13 14:55:07 faq? Jul 13 14:55:08 what sort of coders are you :P Jul 13 14:55:08 See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ Jul 13 14:55:15 seemant, he's a kernel programmer at least partially responsibel for managing a hardware development team Jul 13 14:55:21 I'm a bad one :) Jul 13 14:57:15 ouch! Jul 13 14:57:23 GTA02 is $450 :( Jul 13 14:57:35 fair price Jul 13 14:57:51 meh Jul 13 14:57:55 that IS too expensive for me Jul 13 14:58:01 would you quit the whining already? go work some more Jul 13 14:58:28 jesus christ, we're all pro coders here, or are on our way to doing so, and you cannot afford $450? Jul 13 14:58:40 galexande: ah ok Jul 13 14:58:42 well technically speaking, i'm a pro stoner Jul 13 14:58:47 LOL Jul 13 14:58:48 get a job, you god-damned hippy Jul 13 14:59:01 lol Jul 13 14:59:10 hey i'm not whining, i got the cheap shipping $12.71! Jul 13 14:59:12 galexande, thats my profession too - dont make any money from it, though :P Jul 13 14:59:31 ewon: I'm a student - I have a couple of part time jobs doing crap all.... no money for anything Jul 13 14:59:45 galexande: you have an 01 on the way? Jul 13 14:59:48 daurnimator: summer jobs are for winners. Jul 13 14:59:49 mori, god willing Jul 13 15:00:13 summer was money-time when I was a student Jul 13 15:00:21 ewon: its winter now.... and I have 3 exams next week Jul 13 15:00:34 daurnimator, /quit and learn some -_- Jul 13 15:00:35 daurn, step one: stand on the top of the earth not the bottom :-) Jul 13 15:00:41 If you have lots of time and no money then start writing code and if you're loved enough FIC may send you a phase 2 'phone (not that I'm promising, it's nothing to do with me) Jul 13 15:00:46 galexande: oh, another silly quibble - no IR port (I'd love to use the moko as a giant universal remote). Jul 13 15:01:03 mori, yeah a lot of people have mentioned it, and it's a really cheap and easy thing to add actually Jul 13 15:01:05 daurnimator: contracting gigs. I made plenty of money as a student, right up to my finals Jul 13 15:01:16 but i don't think fic will do it soon because they don't want to modify the case Jul 13 15:01:21 i bet it would be a possible after-market. Jul 13 15:01:24 mostly doing bitch-work like trying to keep tomcat from exploding boxes into flames Jul 13 15:01:37 galexande: usb IR dongle? Jul 13 15:01:46 or bitbang it from GPIO pins, I suppose Jul 13 15:01:52 galexande: right. we alreay know they don't want to retool, and I understand that. Jul 13 15:01:56 galexande, what prevents the community from makeing some how-to? Jul 13 15:02:01 yeah, i would use gpio or one of teh uarts in the s3c. Jul 13 15:02:11 does the usb host port have enough juice to run without external power? Jul 13 15:02:14 phrozen, nothing, you can put it on the wiki Jul 13 15:02:20 yup Jul 13 15:02:20 daurn, nope Jul 13 15:02:21 * Moriarty_ pictures galexande's 01 with a few dangly wires. Jul 13 15:02:31 hm Jul 13 15:02:36 i'm not modding my gta01, i will love it too much ;) Jul 13 15:02:41 (not good with surface mouunt) Jul 13 15:02:41 heh Jul 13 15:02:53 apparently they left some pads open for 'interesting' signals though. Jul 13 15:02:54 mt gta is going to be kept in mint condition - something to show the grandkids Jul 13 15:03:14 "when i was your age, this things' batteries held a charge!" Jul 13 15:03:19 hah Jul 13 15:03:39 I wonder if the hardware modders will bodge a 5V power line in there to run the usb... Jul 13 15:03:42 how bout to power low power usb devices? - eg, keyboard (only 100mA) Jul 13 15:04:07 mori, the trouble is that so far the whole thing runs on like 1.8-3.7V Jul 13 15:04:09 I could imagine typing emails on a largish keyboard on the openmoko... Jul 13 15:04:19 so there's no 5V in it, you'd have to put in a little charge pump or something Jul 13 15:04:24 yeah. Jul 13 15:04:44 daurn, a lot of keyboards draw basically nothing on the power rails, and they might work (well under 100mA) Jul 13 15:04:45 however, I would not be surprised if the hardware nuts figure out a way to do it. Jul 13 15:05:01 daurnimator, there is no power period Jul 13 15:05:03 daurn, but the power pins are essentially not-connected in usb host mode. they're input-only Jul 13 15:05:10 bluetooth keyboards are a better idea Jul 13 15:05:23 i know for a fact that there are ps/2 keyboards which still "work" if you cut the power lines Jul 13 15:05:23 so there is 0v going out the rails in host mode? Jul 13 15:05:37 Does OpenMoko have Bluetooth ;-)? Jul 13 15:05:42 dtx, hells yeah Jul 13 15:06:00 I just wanted to present another "does openmoko have..." Jul 13 15:06:05 the Neo does :þ Jul 13 15:06:22 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ#Q:_Does_it_have_bluetooth.3F Jul 13 15:06:23 weeee Jul 13 15:07:14 holy crap qemu builds really fast Jul 13 15:10:02 one could hax in a little box with some nimh cells in it to get 5V to the rails, I suspect Jul 13 15:11:07 i think someone wants to put a usb hub chipset in it, with a charge pump for +5V Jul 13 15:11:59 All this openmoko UI stuff like with the dialer is it just using imagemaps and not an actual skin I suppose? Jul 13 15:14:27 I just wonder because when "dialing" it shows a translucent window over the main dialer window Jul 13 15:15:42 "actual skin"? it's using gtk.... Jul 13 15:15:47 i don't know what skinning gtk offers Jul 13 15:16:23 It just seemed really shiny a translucent for gtk Jul 13 15:16:24 mhm Jul 13 15:16:33 limited skinning Jul 13 15:16:34 ans slow Jul 13 15:16:34 I was wondering if they were using the e libs for the dialer Jul 13 15:16:36 and Jul 13 15:16:52 talking about the neo i could run around in circles all day, screaming "zomg the possibilities" Jul 13 15:17:06 How do you exit the contacts program? Jul 13 15:18:27 There aren't many UI clues to these icons Jul 13 15:19:45 phrozen, you've described my last weekk:) Jul 13 15:19:58 hehe Jul 13 15:20:17 that just freaks me out lol Jul 13 15:20:24 and i have to wait till friggin october Jul 13 15:25:03 zomg? Jul 13 15:26:27 the gumstix computer + gsm module is also interesting Jul 13 15:35:40 * k-s[WORK] is away: lunch... Jul 13 15:35:46 Is Minimo running on this yet? Jul 13 15:37:38 Does OpenMoko not set the clock to UTC? Jul 13 15:41:15 Is there live on mars Jul 13 15:41:41 Yes, a tiny little rover Jul 13 15:41:46 or two Jul 13 15:41:47 Or two. Jul 13 15:41:51 They're alive? Jul 13 15:41:59 For various values of alive. Jul 13 15:42:01 They are imbued with human behavior Jul 13 15:42:16 They almost certainly have some biological contamination on, in suspended animation. Jul 13 15:42:17 not any more, they were crushed by decepticons in Transformers, the movie. Jul 13 15:42:26 That was Beagle Jul 13 15:42:51 dtx: oh :) Jul 13 15:42:58 :-P Jul 13 15:43:29 :p Jul 13 15:44:42 everyone, bow before LaF0rge Jul 13 15:44:43 :P Jul 13 15:45:54 hi LaF0rge Jul 13 15:46:08 how is it going? Jul 13 15:46:10 * SpeedEvil looks sort-of-gratefull. Jul 13 15:48:45 LaF0rge: you are doing great work, but I hope you get to do more fun work in future and not burn yourself out with boring work Jul 13 15:50:36 personally I'm happy that I have reserved place in order queue, no matter how long it actually takes to arrive ;-) Jul 13 15:50:42 So what's up with the last post on your blog, Laf0rge? Jul 13 15:50:49 :-P Jul 13 15:51:32 * stefan_schmidt suggest to don't bother him more then he already is. Jul 13 15:52:43 so.. personally: take it easy and don't try to do everything (there is limited amount any person can do no matter who he is) Jul 13 15:52:58 * dtx appreciates all work done by the Neo/OpenMoko crew, and just hopes that work is continuing. Jul 13 15:55:12 anyway, I'm really appropriate what you have done and as mjr said "wishing you a speedy but decidedly not hurried recovery." Jul 13 15:56:38 LaF0rge: if we ever see each other I will definitely buy you a beer Jul 13 15:57:51 or better: just put in a nice dinner for him somewhere around - without computers, mobiles or anything technical, just some spare time ;) Jul 13 15:59:34 So anyways is there a way to view web pages using a qemu image? Jul 13 16:00:34 Of course I'm making the assumption that the browser is functional ;-) Jul 13 16:01:57 wow alan cox on the mailing list ;) Jul 13 16:02:11 nice Jul 13 16:02:39 So anybody know if its possible? Jul 13 16:03:00 dtx qemu has networksupport Jul 13 16:03:10 right now there is no browser afaik Jul 13 16:03:13 dtx so it should be clear Jul 13 16:03:21 dtx: good question. Jul 13 16:03:25 but it will work once there is one Jul 13 16:03:38 dtx: does netcat count as a browser? :) Jul 13 16:03:41 heck even windows update works from qemu hosted windows Jul 13 16:03:42 I clicked on the Logo in the upper left corner then clicked on web Jul 13 16:03:43 compile lynx w3m minimo konq-embbed Jul 13 16:03:55 even firefox should work Jul 13 16:03:56 Brought up a browser looking interface with http://www.google.com Jul 13 16:04:01 in the box Jul 13 16:04:25 or use the webkit port zecke is working on ;) Jul 13 16:04:55 woglinde: is there a public webpage or source repository for that project? Jul 13 16:05:00 links is in openembedded. Jul 13 16:05:26 I can already click on the logo in the upper left corner and click on 'Web' and it brings up a browser interface Jul 13 16:05:27 don-o ask zecke Jul 13 16:05:43 I don't know if it has a rendering engine yet though cuz I don't have any pages to view. Jul 13 16:06:21 I like the new locations on the wiki.. good job Jul 13 16:06:31 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/OpenMoko_Local_Groups Jul 13 16:09:00 andylockran: woah cool. openmoko user groups Jul 13 16:09:29 lol Jul 13 16:09:34 who put berlin in Jul 13 16:10:10 can you hit escape on this thing? Jul 13 16:10:20 otherwise vi is gonna be harder than I though Jul 13 16:10:21 t Jul 13 16:10:33 heh Jul 13 16:10:38 use emacs, as God intended. Jul 13 16:10:43 Jul 13 16:10:43 lol Jul 13 16:10:58 but with emacs you can't nav with hjkl Jul 13 16:11:08 as the real God intended Jul 13 16:11:09 :-P Jul 13 16:11:25 dtx: control-] = esc Jul 13 16:11:52 How can I do control-] Jul 13 16:11:54 ? Jul 13 16:12:01 * don-o clicks on the openmoko logo, then "web" Jul 13 16:12:11 dtx not sure what device you're using Jul 13 16:12:38 qemu neo Jul 13 16:12:59 and the built in "keyboard" Jul 13 16:13:18 dtx: well stop that and use the 101key keyboard in front of you :) Jul 13 16:13:39 It doesn't appear to work Jul 13 16:14:04 the openmoko logo is disturbingly close to Window's Start button Jul 13 16:14:36 dtx: i just started a terminal app in the emulator. the keyboard doesnt work for me either :( Jul 13 16:15:00 task-switching is pretty sweet. Jul 13 16:15:27 how do you bring up the on-screen keyboard? Jul 13 16:16:08 click on the grey box at the top of the screen Jul 13 16:16:38 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[OpenMoko_Local_Groups:_Birmingham]] [[OpenMoko_Local_Groups:_San_Francisco]] [[OpenMoko_Local_Groups]] [[OpenMoko_Local_Groups:_Eugene]] [[Talk:OpenMoko_Local_Groups:_Eugene]] [[Java]] [[Talk:OpenMoko_Local_Groups:_Birmingham]] [[MokoMakefile/it]] and other changes Jul 13 16:17:24 dtx: oh. i take it a little keyboard icon or something goes there Jul 13 16:17:39 That's what I assumed Jul 13 16:17:40 :-P Jul 13 16:19:07 yeah this is painful Jul 13 16:19:08 and when i click on the right side of the box i get a menu to change between two types of keyboard and character recognition Jul 13 16:19:45 Where? Jul 13 16:19:56 tuukkah: hey yeah. the second keyboard option gives a keyboard with control and esc Jul 13 16:20:04 All I see is 'A' 'a' '1' '&' and some weird symbol thing Jul 13 16:20:12 dtx: rub around the right hand side of the little grey box Jul 13 16:20:32 * don-o says 'rub' because i always have to give the mouse a little wiggle with the button pressed down Jul 13 16:20:53 ok so click on the right side Jul 13 16:20:54 I see Jul 13 16:21:04 don-o, and bottom right of the second keyboard is arrow keys Jul 13 16:21:07 oh excellent Jul 13 16:22:01 um are you guys playing with real neos? Jul 13 16:22:01 i think someone said the second keyboard is too small to be used on the real neo though Jul 13 16:22:12 yeah Jul 13 16:22:12 ferric, emulator Jul 13 16:22:14 ferric: emulator Jul 13 16:22:18 that would probably be the case Jul 13 16:22:33 * hozer had problems with the MokoMakefile 'make qemu' Jul 13 16:22:45 ah Jul 13 16:22:54 Did it ask about gcc 3 instead of gcc 4? Jul 13 16:24:04 I remember seeing something, but it seemed to work Jul 13 16:24:06 oh man on the second keyboard it can't do a less than sign Jul 13 16:26:21 For some reason I always have to edit usb-linux.c inside the qemu-neo1973 dir before "make build-qemu" works Jul 13 16:26:47 I just went from a plain install from yesterday and it all worked Jul 13 16:26:56 I just had to install gcc3.4 first Jul 13 16:26:59 hi trying to run openmoko in Xephyr on my desktop but it cant find fonts - anyone know where I need to copy fonts to on my host system? Jul 13 16:27:01 I'm on openSuSE Jul 13 16:27:16 dtx: what distro? Jul 13 16:27:17 (Im running Xubuntu, so XFCE windows...) Jul 13 16:28:00 Ubuntu 7.04 Jul 13 16:28:09 jpcass, s/windows/desktop/ Jul 13 16:28:17 :-P Jul 13 16:28:34 Retrieving available builds list... Jul 13 16:28:34 ../openmoko/trunk/src/host/qemu-neo1973/openmoko/download.sh: line 28: lynx: command not found Jul 13 16:28:34 Kernel is... not found Jul 13 16:28:34 Root filesystem is... not found Jul 13 16:28:34 U-boot is... not found Jul 13 16:28:35 Retrieving available builds list... Jul 13 16:28:37 ../openmoko/trunk/src/host/qemu-neo1973/openmoko/download.sh: line 28: lynx: command not found Jul 13 16:28:39 Kernel is... not found Jul 13 16:28:41 Root filesystem is... not found Jul 13 16:28:43 7.04 comes with gcc4.x so you need to install gcc3.x Jul 13 16:28:43 U-boot is... not found Jul 13 16:28:45 hrrrm... mokomakefile needs to have lynx installed Jul 13 16:29:12 odd Jul 13 16:29:17 hozer: it won't run without lynx Jul 13 16:29:19 tuukkah: yep - any ideas where I should put the fonts? Jul 13 16:29:25 I wonder why it doesn't just use wget Jul 13 16:29:34 I have no idea Jul 13 16:29:41 jpcass, no, sorry Jul 13 16:30:19 jpcass: build/tmp/rootfs/usr/share/fonts/ Jul 13 16:30:25 dtx, lack of < is a small bug as the key is there but produces > Jul 13 16:30:59 yeah Jul 13 16:31:04 so I noticed Jul 13 16:31:06 devestate: thanks - thats where the fonts are, but they need to be copied somewhere on my host system for Xephyr to work (according to wiki) Jul 13 16:31:16 unfortunately I'm trying to make a test html page Jul 13 16:31:17 haha Jul 13 16:31:21 i tried copying to /usr/share/fonts on host but doesnt help... Jul 13 16:32:12 wiki entry http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Getting_OpenMoko_working_on_host_with_Xephyr explains how to copy with Gnome Desktop, but doesnt give specific locations... Jul 13 16:32:13 jpcass: sorry misread let me take a look at my notes Jul 13 16:33:49 don't they go to something like ~/.fonts when you do that in gnome? Jul 13 16:35:24 tuukah: in my user dir? thought fonts would be system-wide... I'll try though... Jul 13 16:36:42 tuukah: that didnt work ;-( Jul 13 16:36:51 not all are anymore when programs use client side fonts with fontconfig Jul 13 16:37:35 whats the aspect ratio of the neo's screen? Jul 13 16:37:40 4:3 Jul 13 16:37:44 480x640 Jul 13 16:37:48 well - 3:4 Jul 13 16:37:55 :) Jul 13 16:38:12 what is the iphone's aspect ratio? Jul 13 16:38:19 Dunno. Jul 13 16:38:29 480x320 Jul 13 16:38:30 ##iphone? Jul 13 16:38:43 3:2 then Jul 13 16:40:15 wooo! I have the qemu version running Jul 13 16:40:41 I'm seeing /usr/share/fonts /usr/X11R6/lib/X11/fonts and ~/.fonts in some of the config files in /etc/fonts/conf.d Jul 13 16:41:02 hrrm, I hope the real thing boots faster than the emulator :) Jul 13 16:41:12 hozer: me too :) Jul 13 16:41:34 They haven't put in the async service starting yet Jul 13 16:41:42 I believe it is their plan to do so, thouhg Jul 13 16:41:44 though Jul 13 16:42:13 i thought async service startup was all the rage amongst linux distros a while back. i have yet to see an implemententation. Jul 13 16:42:24 Ummm Jul 13 16:42:29 Well, my distro is using it right now Jul 13 16:42:34 Ubuntu does Jul 13 16:42:37 ubuntu's startup, for instance, looks very serial Jul 13 16:42:46 Its async Jul 13 16:42:47 now Jul 13 16:42:49 maybe im expecting too much Jul 13 16:43:12 I mean it has to start up dependent services first Jul 13 16:43:18 like net before ssh, etc. Jul 13 16:43:24 sure Jul 13 16:43:34 and udev before all Jul 13 16:43:36 :-P Jul 13 16:44:01 im tar'ing my openmoko build. 1.2GB and climbing. Jul 13 16:44:28 id like to make it available for download but i dont have a place where i want to let the internet grab a 4-8GB file. Jul 13 16:44:42 torrent Jul 13 16:44:51 Just encode it to an image and drop it on bayimg Jul 13 16:44:52 :-P Jul 13 16:44:56 don-o: try bootchart to see what starts up when, you'll see if you are running parallel startup or not Jul 13 16:45:19 id download it, the seed it forever and ever Jul 13 16:45:21 MrFeetio: good idea. Jul 13 16:45:32 * don-o discovers bayimg Jul 13 16:45:48 oh That kind of image. ha. Jul 13 16:46:31 ;-) Jul 13 16:48:31 woglinde, i put berlin into the local groups(created them too) Jul 13 16:51:45 so, how can I import my palm phonebook into the openmoko contact manager? Jul 13 16:52:15 sed Jul 13 16:52:24 minime okay Jul 13 16:54:24 dtx: thanks /usr/X11R6/lib/X11/fonts seemd to work for fonts (copied ttf folder from rootfs/usr/share/fonts) Jul 13 16:55:41 awesome Jul 13 16:55:54 Maybe that should be added to the FAQ Jul 13 16:55:55 :-P Jul 13 16:56:28 will do. getting a lot of 'cannot load stock icon from theme' problems now, and many missing icons on mokoscreen... Jul 13 16:56:53 jpcass, others have reported this here too Jul 13 16:57:05 goin' to lunch Jul 13 17:01:05 runs nice and slow on my 2.4GHz core-2 duo ;-) Jul 13 17:01:15 mickey|bbl: theme-meister? Jul 13 17:03:32 jpcass: Are you talking about qemu running slow? Jul 13 17:03:56 no, running native x86 inside Xephyr.. Jul 13 17:03:59 jpcass, do you have /usr/share/themes in rootfs? Jul 13 17:05:05 on the neo, that dir contains Default Emacs MBOpus blonde openmd Jul 13 17:05:08 tuukah: yes, got blondie, Default, Emacs, MBOpus and openmoko-standard Jul 13 17:05:57 heh, gtkterm cut the entries =) Jul 13 17:07:01 while tarring up the build, tar is turning up a bunch of files with unix file perms of 000. odd. Jul 13 17:08:27 files in a /.pc/ directory Jul 13 17:08:41 probably some revision control thingy Jul 13 17:09:03 They are how quilt does it's patching. Jul 13 17:09:30 ewanm89_laptop: any idea why it would set the file perm to 000? Jul 13 17:09:40 the first .pc directory i look in doesn't have any 000 perms Jul 13 17:12:15 Mine niether. Jul 13 17:14:32 counter? Jul 13 17:14:33 (last update 2007-07-10 13:43) http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter : Order https://direct.openmoko.com/ ; Shipping prob. 60% in 4 days 18:45:22 (4.782±3.0 days) (1735;246) Jul 13 17:14:51 hmmm ..... me wanty! Jul 13 17:16:29 galexande, ewanm89_laptop: example: http://pastie.caboo.se/78634 Jul 13 17:16:50 im not too worried about it, anyone untaring the build wouldnt need those and they'll probably get rebuilt anyways. Jul 13 17:18:07 haha caboo.se Jul 13 17:18:25 galexande: im a rails developer by day :) Jul 13 17:19:08 huh, yup, i have 'em too Jul 13 17:19:27 and zero-length. weird. that's probably how quilt marks that it has applied a patch, rather than deleting it Jul 13 17:19:40 (wild-assed-guess) Jul 13 17:20:31 * k-s[AWAY_WORK] is back. Jul 13 17:23:06 why oh why didnt i set INHERIT += "rm_work" when i built this thing. Jul 13 17:27:52 yeah that's a good idea if you're building a release thing, i hadn't thought of it either :) Jul 13 17:28:58 though, only 9GB, for all the build files for an entire distro...that's pretty cool :) Jul 13 17:31:10 http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/iphone/iphone-field-test-mode-lets-you-spy-on-the-att-network-277797.php Jul 13 17:32:35 "In other words, you can see things that AT&T might not want you to see" because they prefer an ignorant customer? Jul 13 17:32:43 I suppose that's true enough Jul 13 17:37:38 this is what I see running moko in Xephyr, others seeing the same? http://www.johnkerry.plus.com/xephyr-moko-screen.jpg Jul 13 17:37:59 Okay, good news: After running gllin a bit, my gps feels much more normal. So I think, there is some reset code in gllin. Jul 13 17:38:30 bad news: I still have no idea, what the params on the channel-setup means. And the signal strengths still confuses me totally. Jul 13 17:40:27 1. Going outside, vary PRN on the openmoko, look at signals, guess "Ohh, 9 looks like it is there" Jul 13 17:41:00 2. Get sirf3 base navi, make on "9 is there within seconds, others need time. Jul 13 17:41:04 --> Yeah Jul 13 17:41:53 3. Put 9 into neo, go into basement: Signal does not change at all. Jul 13 17:42:01 --> me being confused. Jul 13 17:42:06 jpcass: almost - I have a "OpenMoko TaskManager" toolbar at the bottom of the screen Jul 13 17:42:33 there should also be one icon above the "0/0" label Jul 13 17:46:28 jpcass: this is what I get: http://antimass.org/aking/moko-snap.jpg Jul 13 17:49:36 i'm in love! Jul 13 17:49:45 i guess those images come from somewhere else than /usr/share/themes Jul 13 17:49:55 never have i ever seen any screen more clearly communicate "i will not get in the way of you making your own UI" Jul 13 17:50:34 tag Jul 13 17:51:13 galexande, what screen are you referring to? Jul 13 17:51:19 tuuk, http://antimass.org/aking/moko-snap.jpg Jul 13 17:52:26 how does it communicate that?-) Jul 13 17:52:35 once I get paid (*grumble grumble damn clients*) and get mine ... mwhahah emacs ui Jul 13 17:52:53 at least the star trek ui is designed for touch panels :) Jul 13 17:53:09 tuuk, how does a canvas evoke the mona lisa? Jul 13 17:53:56 uhhuh Jul 13 17:54:07 have any devices shipped yet ? Jul 13 17:54:12 high, presumed no. Jul 13 17:54:25 p0 devices ;-) Jul 13 17:54:27 we have been told that it will be at least a week, so sit back and wait Jul 13 17:55:03 galexande: I'm going to drop either scwm or stumpwm onto it (depending on which uses less memory; scwm being an fvwm1.x fork it uses under 5M so probably scwm) Jul 13 17:55:15 galexande: and then write a simple tiling layout manager for it in scheme Jul 13 17:55:54 unknown, ugh i don't want to hear more :) Jul 13 17:56:11 i'm in love with matchbox for palmtops, it is convenient and always willing to get out of your way Jul 13 17:56:24 I also want my unit to just display text :-) Jul 13 17:56:31 fancily styled text, but text only nonetheless Jul 13 17:56:31 So what was that rant on planet.openmoko.org on the 11th about? Anyone know? :) Jul 13 17:56:51 i'm with you on the text...the star trek ui is just colored squares, colored corner curves, and text Jul 13 17:56:58 high, stress Jul 13 17:56:59 guis are nice, wimp sucks Jul 13 17:57:48 unknown, what is your plan for text input? Jul 13 17:57:48 I hope a little UI love is in the plans for work during this phase, because as-is, openmoko's UI is not exactly usable for non-developers. Jul 13 17:58:05 texel, we're going to have so many different UIs we'll be fighting Jul 13 17:58:12 galexande: how so? Jul 13 17:58:23 galexande: smallest set of buttons I can do predictive text on with my thumb Jul 13 17:58:34 galexande: I like the QW ER TY ... keyboard someone mocked up a while ago Jul 13 17:58:41 i don't know how many developers are like unknown and me, but we've got wildly divergent ideas and this is the first phone to let us play with them Jul 13 17:58:43 and then sticky modifier bits Jul 13 17:58:48 Ahh. Jul 13 17:58:51 Makes sense. Jul 13 17:58:55 yeah, I'm tried of being forced to use a standard ui Jul 13 17:59:00 I guess I'm just talking about the stock install. Jul 13 17:59:09 e.g. series60 is cool at first, but then you realize you can't change anything worth changing Jul 13 17:59:12 unknown, i guess within an elisp dictionary or whatever, you can do a pretty easy job of predictive text for command functions.. Jul 13 17:59:19 yeah Jul 13 17:59:27 and you happen to have that :-) Jul 13 17:59:34 and for all of the programming modes I use Jul 13 17:59:42 * xkr47 assigns galexande to get elisp up and running :) Jul 13 17:59:56 galexande: couple that with a TAGS library, and you have predictive text for code as well. Jul 13 17:59:58 and in general (just cat /usr/share/words for {text|muse|planner|...}-mode) Jul 13 17:59:59 no if i were to do something linguistic, it would be more like colorforth Jul 13 18:00:30 xkr47: it's easier than it seems Jul 13 18:00:50 xkr47: mouse events are just key hits in emacs so it is feasible to define a purely touchscreen emacs Jul 13 18:00:51 * hozer longs for speech recognition Jul 13 18:01:04 unknown_lamer, :) Jul 13 18:01:07 xkr47: now the config might be a few thousand lines long ... but what's another thousand or two lines on an already thousand line config :-) Jul 13 18:01:45 there's also a gesture.el for mouse gestures on emacswiki that I've yet to poke around with much Jul 13 18:01:46 hozer, "I only want to receive calls from my dad this evening" Jul 13 18:02:04 mostly 'cause the acceleration on my ghetto trackpoint is so high it is useless for anything other than focusing windows and clicking large buttons Jul 13 18:08:17 jpcass, the missing images should be at usr/share/icons/openmoko-standard Jul 13 18:09:46 Um, why won't this work. Jul 13 18:10:28 ewan, you forgot to pray first Jul 13 18:12:28 I added gvim to tasks/task-openmoko.bb and increase PR by one via a quilt patch and it built it added it into image, I change this patch to vim (no toolbar so gvim is useless anyway), and creat a new patch which adds sudo and increases PR again. Jul 13 18:12:41 I still have gvim, and no sudo. Jul 13 18:13:49 any ideas? Jul 13 18:14:07 It applys them fine. Jul 13 18:14:21 [ ! -e openmoko/patches/series ] || \ Jul 13 18:14:21 ( cd openmoko ; quilt push -a ) Jul 13 18:14:21 Applying patch patches/vim.patch Jul 13 18:14:21 patching file trunk/oe/packages/tasks/task-openmoko.bb Jul 13 18:14:21 Applying patch patches/sudo.patch Jul 13 18:14:23 patching file trunk/oe/packages/tasks/task-openmoko.bb Jul 13 18:14:26 Now at patch patches/sudo.patch Jul 13 18:14:28 ( cd build ; . ../setup-env ; \ Jul 13 18:14:31 bitbake openmoko-devel-image ) Jul 13 18:17:35 ewanm89_laptop - Can you please use a pastebin service? Like http://en.pastebin.ca/ ? Jul 13 18:17:38 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[OpenMoko_Local_Groups:_Montreal]] [[OpenMoko_Local_Groups]] [[OpenMoko_Local_Groups:_North_Texas]] [[Category:Neo1973_Hardware/ru]] [[Main_Page/ru]] [[FIC/ru]] [[Talk:OpenMoko_Local_Groups:_North_Texas]] [[OpenMoko_Local_Groups:_Cleveland]] and other changes Jul 13 18:19:07 i can't believe fic managed to offload the task of building a distribution network onto the open source community Jul 13 18:19:09 that's really pretty cool Jul 13 18:19:13 Elrond: Yeah, it crossed my mind as I hit. Jul 13 18:19:27 s/./ enter/ Jul 13 18:19:28 ewanm89_laptop meant: Elrond: Yeah, it crossed my mind as I hit enter Jul 13 18:19:54 Distribution networn? Jul 13 18:20:43 galexande: ? Jul 13 18:20:46 galexande: HAHA, that's a pretty good business hack if you asked me ;) Jul 13 18:20:58 all these people ordering half a dozen neos to save on shipping for a group Jul 13 18:21:11 ah. Jul 13 18:21:13 :) Jul 13 18:21:30 SpeedEvil - You saw my list above? Jul 13 18:22:09 galexande, it's funny and encouraging to see I think :) Jul 13 18:22:28 I wonder how many GAT01s will turn up on ebay... Jul 13 18:22:48 probably not many. I think most of the people ordering them actually want them and aren't trying to flip 'em. Jul 13 18:22:53 that's my thinking, at least. Jul 13 18:23:13 no Jul 13 18:23:15 mine would only go if ii get a gta0 Jul 13 18:23:17 2 Jul 13 18:23:20 jgm - You mean all the people who brick'd them? ;-) Jul 13 18:23:46 That's the other thing, will we start seeing unbricking services from those who purchased the advanced kit? Jul 13 18:23:47 SpeedEvil - Basicly, this thing confuses me. Jul 13 18:23:55 jgm, if necessary Jul 13 18:24:02 wouldn't that be cool. :) Jul 13 18:24:20 jgm - I presume, that those services will happen, yes. Jul 13 18:24:37 to pointlessly extrapolate, a whole cottage industry around hard-mods to the neo. :P Jul 13 18:25:14 Sorry - I don't see a list - just woken up Jul 13 18:25:28 SpeedEvil - Let me scroll up. ;-) Jul 13 18:25:46 I had this idea of a custom carbon-fiber case or shell, but I'm not sure that would work so well for radio propagation Jul 13 18:25:46 I suspect that we'll see fewer hard mods, because it sounds like FIC is planning on producing new handsets quite quickly Jul 13 18:26:02 If they end up like HTC then there won't be time for adding your own mods to the thing! Jul 13 18:26:06 heh Jul 13 18:26:06 1. Going outside, vary PRN on the neo, look at signals, guess "Ohh, 9 looks like it is there" Jul 13 18:26:24 what is HTC? Jul 13 18:26:26 yeah. HTC seems to shoot out a new handset before you can say 'marklar!' Jul 13 18:26:37 2. Get sirf3 based navi, switch on, 9 is there within seconds, others need time. Jul 13 18:26:41 manufacturer of WM-based smartphones. Jul 13 18:26:41 I see that - I don't see what you mean by distribution network. Jul 13 18:26:44 --> Yeah! Jul 13 18:26:45 hozer: WinMibole handset manufacturer Jul 13 18:26:53 3. Put 9 into neo, go into basement: Signal does not change at all. Jul 13 18:26:54 s/Mibole/Mobile (sigh)/ Jul 13 18:26:55 jgm meant: hozer: WinMobile (sigh) handset manufacturer Jul 13 18:26:58 --> me being confused. Jul 13 18:27:25 I think I'll start referring to it as WinMibole. I like that. Jul 13 18:27:43 s/thanks/tm/ Jul 13 18:27:51 s/sigh/tm/ Jul 13 18:28:11 Okay I think someone is about to confiscate my keyboard, I'm no longer qualified to use it Jul 13 18:28:46 tuukkah: thanks: i see the icons in /usr/share/icons/openmoko-standard, wonder why moko doesnt use them? Jul 13 18:29:06 Anyway, was there some decision on how to handle storage of things like SMS messages? I'm thinking of my unified messaging app and wondering if I will need to build out my own data store or if there will be an easy way of accessing an already-present store Jul 13 18:29:36 jgm: are you unifying sms and email? Jul 13 18:29:52 * hozer suggests maildir Jul 13 18:30:00 SMS/email/voice (mail or calls, depends)/IM/IRC/etc Jul 13 18:30:22 Basically I want a decent interface that doesn't segregate my information just because it turned up on the 'phone one way as opposed to another Jul 13 18:30:59 jgm: are you gonna have a desktop version of this as well? Jul 13 18:31:03 libgsmd is presumably going to have some sort of sms api Jul 13 18:31:03 yeah, i agree strongly jgm, especially for core phone functions like recent calls and recent SMS which any app may want Jul 13 18:31:11 sounds good. I'd like an app that looks like sms but uses sms/email - for my mum to use; she loves sms but will never turn a computer on for email! Jul 13 18:31:24 it seems like for the phone-specific ones, maybe gsmd or libgsmd can take the role, but i think you'd have to write it yourself. Jul 13 18:31:30 and yeah, sms/im/mail could do with a bit of unifying ui-wise Jul 13 18:32:01 So I'm thinking telepathy for the backend, as we already have IM and IRC channels (plus VOIP, video streaming and others) there Jul 13 18:32:19 i wonder what sending a text message looks like in gsm at commands Jul 13 18:32:27 Then a 'bit in the middle' that stores all of the data and allows you to tag/manage/retrieve it Jul 13 18:32:38 * hozer would like a unified messaging app that can sync it's data store with a desktop machine Jul 13 18:32:40 And some sort of frontend, although that will be loosely coupled so that other apps can get to the same data Jul 13 18:33:00 or better yet, store everythign in maildir so things like squirelmail (or other imap frontents) can use it Jul 13 18:33:03 hozer: I think that people are looking at SyncML for that (although I think that SyncML changed its name a while ago) Jul 13 18:33:28 galexande: there is a spec for that if you want to read it, think it's 05.07 but not totally sure Jul 13 18:33:35 hozer, well except that things like "the most recent 10 calls" don't make as much sense in maildir Jul 13 18:33:59 galexande: true.. Jul 13 18:34:16 Yip here you go: http://www.3gpp.org/ftp/Specs/html-info/0705.htm Jul 13 18:34:21 tuukkah: are you getting all icons in moko/Xephyr? (is anyone?) Jul 13 18:34:28 trying to be too general and satisfy every possible usage will get us chasing our tails, sadly Jul 13 18:34:41 but at the least, store it in files that can either be rsync'ed, or could be stored on a distributed filesystem Jul 13 18:34:49 thanks jgm, i had no luck last time i tried to look for gsm standards Jul 13 18:35:17 either AFS with disconnected operation, or NFSv4 with cachefs Jul 13 18:35:30 galexande: really? But there are so many of them :) Jul 13 18:36:06 jpcass, i'm not even trying at this point Jul 13 18:36:16 hozer: did they get AFS to do disconnected ops? Jul 13 18:36:30 I know Coda was supposed to have it, but Coda turned into Intermezo and died. Jul 13 18:36:31 did you people notice that sms and email already are unified in the current ui? Jul 13 18:36:35 some umich research project had it working Jul 13 18:36:50 tuukkah: yep but nowhere near enough integration for me Jul 13 18:36:53 and the code needs to be merged and tested with the openafs trunk Jul 13 18:37:06 tuukkah: no, i'm just trying to get it working so I can find things like that out! ;-) Jul 13 18:37:08 i think email and sms are similar enough, you could use Maildir for SMS Jul 13 18:37:17 though i'm fond of mbox :) Jul 13 18:37:29 I am looking for a device having open source platform which has GPS and accelerometer, and possibly other sensors Jul 13 18:37:34 Mmm. Jul 13 18:37:38 yeah, I'll teach my mum to use mutt. Jul 13 18:37:49 Maildir /is/ easier to synch at the filesystem level. Jul 13 18:37:50 jpcass, you can try qemu first, that's easy at least Jul 13 18:37:58 I want to be able to 'send' to someone and let the system decide the best way: IM (if they are online and not idle), SMS (if I have their number), email (fallback), or whatever else. Jul 13 18:38:02 galexande: you should look at dovecot and their proposed 'dbox' format Jul 13 18:38:47 do you know a device running openmoko that has accelerometers, GPS, and some others sensors? Jul 13 18:38:47 Drakeson: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.) Jul 13 18:40:20 Drakeson, the next Neo version will have those, and you can hack your own in of course Jul 13 18:40:48 is there a prototype that I can buy or see? Jul 13 18:41:32 tuukkah: why would qemu help? doesnt that just emulate arm processor? or does it affect the rootfs/layout/graphics rendering? Jul 13 18:41:33 well the GTA01 orderable now has GPS, but not accelerometers Jul 13 18:41:36 Drakeson - You should not expect too much from the gps/accels, or at least: Don't expect wonders! Jul 13 18:42:07 I need such a device for my research. I don't really expect much yet Jul 13 18:42:11 jpcass, well i know i see the icons in qemu =) Jul 13 18:42:57 drakeson, it is not infeasible to add accelerometers to gta01. if you really want to build a device that has a specific set of features, you can pretty much always do it with gumstix.com Jul 13 18:43:04 tuukkah: ;-) ok, I'll try that - did you follow this howto: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/OpenMoko_under_QEMU Jul 13 18:43:05 drakes: see [[Accelerometer_funsamentals]] on the wiki Jul 13 18:43:10 Drakeson - Well, as mjr said: GTA01Bv03 is available (you can check the very detailed hardware specs on the wiki). But not accelerometers. Jul 13 18:43:12 drakes: see [[Accelerometer_Fundamentals]] on the wiki Jul 13 18:43:42 jpcass, i just downloaded the mokomakefile and ran make setup && make qemu Jul 13 18:43:43 Drakeson: research? Jul 13 18:43:51 univ Jul 13 18:44:02 tuukkah: alright here we go..... Jul 13 18:44:04 Drakeson - what sort of research? Jul 13 18:44:41 Drakeson: pizza delivery tracking? Jul 13 18:44:52 SpeedEvil - *lol* Jul 13 18:44:59 they call it pervasive computing Jul 13 18:45:03 lol Jul 13 18:45:10 oh not afs, please not Jul 13 18:45:47 that is TOTALLY over the top Jul 13 18:45:49 buz - andrew filesystem?! Jul 13 18:46:11 Elrond: i was looking at the backlog Jul 13 18:46:12 army fire service ? Jul 13 18:46:24 [20:36] and the code needs to be merged and tested with the openafs trunk Jul 13 18:46:30 buz - I haven't scrolled that much up... Jul 13 18:46:40 sorry, thought it was a joke Jul 13 18:46:51 well in here i'm never quite sure Jul 13 18:46:57 the iscsi guy seemed to be quite serious Jul 13 18:46:57 I added gvim to tasks/task-openmoko.bb and increase PR by one via a quilt patch and it built it added it into image, I change this patch to vim (no toolbar so gvim is useless anyway), and creat a new patch which adds sudo and increases PR again. Jul 13 18:47:08 I still have gvim, and no sudo. Jul 13 18:47:34 And the patches are reported as applied by mokomakefile. Jul 13 18:48:02 when will the next neo will be released? Jul 13 18:48:10 october, probably Jul 13 18:48:20 buz: afs is indeed ridiculously overpowered. Jul 13 18:48:30 I've always wanted to put it to its full use. Jul 13 18:48:35 and an utter pain to use Jul 13 18:48:38 Drakeson - Officialy october, but you should assume december or so. Jul 13 18:48:51 is that thing even in use outside of uni and ibm? Jul 13 18:48:55 oh most definitely a pain to use. That doesn't make it any less cool. :P Jul 13 18:49:01 not that I've ever really heard of. Jul 13 18:49:08 is there a way to get a prototype for university research? Jul 13 18:49:13 having said that, maildir ain't so bad Jul 13 18:49:21 nah, maildir is sorta nice. Jul 13 18:49:23 but you'd probably need some sane caching mechanism Jul 13 18:49:28 Drakeson - Of the one with accels? Probably not yet. Jul 13 18:50:10 this is gonna be one expensive summer Jul 13 18:50:16 new notebook, asus eee and then neo Jul 13 18:50:54 I got the new notebook, need to order the neo though. Jul 13 18:51:03 i delay neo for gta02 Jul 13 18:51:11 simply cant justify buying both Jul 13 18:51:15 Moriarty_, buz - Any worthwhile useable alternatives to afs? (I'm still looking for an networked fs where you dont need to trust clients) Jul 13 18:51:29 Drakeson: What are you doing? I'm working on adding accels to P1 Jul 13 18:51:32 there are no sane distributed fs, full stop Jul 13 18:51:44 there's kludges like sshfs and webdav though Jul 13 18:51:55 what's P1? Jul 13 18:52:00 sshfs is, what I'm using currently. Jul 13 18:52:00 The current model. Jul 13 18:52:02 phase1 Jul 13 18:52:04 sfs seemed vaguely interesting Jul 13 18:52:16 sfs is pretty good Jul 13 18:52:24 Drakeson: the Accels are being added to the version for sale in Oct. Jul 13 18:52:25 i guess it really depends on what you need to do Jul 13 18:52:28 But even git-on-sshfs is not working out-of-the-box. Jul 13 18:52:35 and the performance you need Jul 13 18:52:57 NFS? Jul 13 18:53:07 NFS needs trusted clients Jul 13 18:53:08 Just worksish. Jul 13 18:53:10 nfsv3 anyway Jul 13 18:53:34 nfsv4... when it finally works, might start to be an alternative. Jul 13 18:53:47 Drakeson: I'm contemplating a kit for this version, to add them. Jul 13 18:53:49 i was hearing about that one since the last century Jul 13 18:53:55 Drakeson: Jul 13 18:53:55 i doubt it will ever make it out the door Jul 13 18:54:03 Drakeson: ~1mg Jul 13 18:54:18 buz - Yeah, same guess here. Jul 13 18:54:24 I have been crying since about 5 years ago (about when ST microelectronics produced MEMS accelerometers) about using accels in handheld devices. Jul 13 18:54:33 in the mean time, there's not much beside SMB :((( Jul 13 18:54:42 What do you want to do? And wasn't AD first? Jul 13 18:54:43 unfortunately it was not exactly my aread Jul 13 18:54:47 *area Jul 13 18:54:56 buz - SMB? No, never. Jul 13 18:55:06 what alternative is there, really Jul 13 18:55:10 (my personal decision.) Jul 13 18:55:19 i dont like smb either Jul 13 18:55:31 but it sort of works Jul 13 18:55:35 I had a handful of ideas about applications of accels Jul 13 18:55:37 CM: openmoko makefile works now. it was no jdk 1.5 problem, it was a vm=jre-problem :) Jul 13 18:55:44 i used to use sfs and it was just fine Jul 13 18:55:49 sshfs sort-of-works. ;) Jul 13 18:56:09 less than smb in my experiene Jul 13 18:56:10 Drakeson: the physics sharply limits apps. Basically inertial positioning generally doesn't work for more than seconds. Jul 13 18:56:11 and have seen them recently published or in use (e.g. in iphone) Jul 13 18:56:13 but muuuch easier to set up Jul 13 18:56:35 buz - Right. And I'm not going to use samba classic at all. Jul 13 18:56:35 smb.conf is approaching black magic Jul 13 18:56:36 I care much more about relative positioning Jul 13 18:56:50 and I know about the drift Jul 13 18:57:26 You can't even do relative postiontin over more than a few seconds. Jul 13 18:57:29 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Accelerometer_Fundamentals Jul 13 18:58:38 tuukkah - Any quicklink tutorial on sfs? Jul 13 18:58:38 * buz wonders how many neos openmoko needs to sell to justify a new case for gta02 Jul 13 18:58:38 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Wish_List_-_Hardware#Accelerometer is also Jul 13 18:58:39 btw, will the device have 4 accels (each with 3 axes)? Jul 13 18:58:43 buz: for what? Jul 13 18:58:51 Drakeson: 2 3 axes Jul 13 18:58:52 Drakeson - Only 2 3d. Jul 13 18:58:52 Drakeson, two, going by current info Jul 13 18:59:01 *sigh* Jul 13 18:59:01 buz: Some of us don't care about the case. Jul 13 18:59:02 sean himself says the current design is largely suboptimal Jul 13 18:59:13 that cannot sense rotation, right? Jul 13 18:59:14 Drakeson: the current accels mentioned ont he list are very bad - 7 bits in a G Jul 13 18:59:20 Drakeson: read the above page Jul 13 18:59:27 the fundamentals one. Jul 13 18:59:30 Tehy can sort-of Jul 13 18:59:41 buz, I really really doubt they're gonna re-engineer it for GTA-02 in any case, and they've said as much in public Jul 13 19:00:01 They would in addition need to wholly respin the PCB in many cases. Jul 13 19:00:11 not necessarily Jul 13 19:00:20 Many, not all. Jul 13 19:00:21 I guess, that's why they plan "other devices". Jul 13 19:00:27 eliminating the hole or even adding a camera might be trivial Jul 13 19:00:28 Elrond, don't remeber after the years, but perhaps http://www.fs.net/sfswww/sfs.html#Getting%20Started Jul 13 19:01:16 tuukkah - Thanks. *looking* Jul 13 19:01:28 heck even buttons wouldnt need a full pcb respin Jul 13 19:01:30 "trivial" yeah, if you mean "trivial" as in you can do that if you have too much money and time to burn Jul 13 19:01:42 The first thing I want to work on is sensing gestures, and gesture commands Jul 13 19:01:43 Not full - partial at lrast thoughh. Jul 13 19:01:52 in that definition of trivial most things become trivial Jul 13 19:01:54 Drakeson: it can pretty much do that. Jul 13 19:02:01 I have been frustrated with what has been implemented Jul 13 19:02:26 Drakeson, yes, gesture sensing will be important for the Neo killer app, lightsaber sounds Jul 13 19:02:40 Drakeson: basically - it knows where down is in relation to the case very well. Any roll about the gravity axes is horribly inaccurate. Jul 13 19:02:46 buz: I think software is their first priority now. Jul 13 19:02:52 Yo-yo simulator. Jul 13 19:03:08 Kensan: which is goo Jul 13 19:03:08 d Jul 13 19:03:10 SpeedEvil: when does the next harrypotter get released? Jul 13 19:03:33 * unknown_lamer unleashes Melkor on Drakeson Jul 13 19:03:43 we so need the light saber app for gta02 Jul 13 19:03:48 * SpeedEvil contemplates wand-gesture combat game. Jul 13 19:04:03 pinball with tilt cheating support Jul 13 19:04:05 _needs_ hand-strap. Jul 13 19:04:05 gimme the wii gun addon anyday Jul 13 19:04:18 buz: that'd need a IR cam Jul 13 19:04:22 buz: I guess it also depends on the efforts of the community if the consumer device can be shipped in 6 months... Jul 13 19:04:25 minime: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/OpenMoko_Local_Groups is brilliant! And great work on the wiki in general :) Jul 13 19:04:29 hook up a neo to that so have some sort of radar :) Jul 13 19:04:37 thomasg_gpm: Sweet :) Jul 13 19:04:44 only wand spells, and nothing more. that would be killer if released on time. Jul 13 19:04:48 Kensan: ideally, openmoko wants to get gta02 out the door ASAP Jul 13 19:04:54 even without consumer ready software Jul 13 19:05:03 so the community can develop on final hardware Jul 13 19:05:33 * CM agrees with buz Jul 13 19:05:43 you might get away with simulating wifi in qemu, but surely not accels Jul 13 19:05:55 I'm planning on adding accels to P1 Jul 13 19:06:00 and selling it as a plugin kit Jul 13 19:06:10 well thats obviously not really realistic for most Jul 13 19:06:14 Maybe $40-50 or so. Jul 13 19:06:20 buz: sure, but there's many other apps that are far more critical and need to be done. Jul 13 19:06:31 Plugin to the debug port and battery. Jul 13 19:06:39 Actually - no. Jul 13 19:06:46 debug port and bluetooth USB port Jul 13 19:06:49 i think hardware is more important Jul 13 19:06:59 IMO. Jul 13 19:07:01 you can fix software Jul 13 19:07:05 Bad hardware isn't a good thing. Jul 13 19:07:09 hardware is much harder to fix Jul 13 19:07:25 besides hardware guys usually suck at software and vice versa Jul 13 19:07:28 *gigglg* "No caffeine was used in the original production of the SFS software." Jul 13 19:07:31 Bad hardware would be something like the graphic accel chip being NDAd and FIC not having time. Jul 13 19:07:32 thats why its called hardware. Jul 13 19:08:01 Not having time to develop all the features. Jul 13 19:08:01 no, bad hardware would be wifi sucking oodles of power Jul 13 19:08:15 That too. Jul 13 19:08:16 buz: yes, but that will take time. Until then everybody should get their vims and emacs , etc read ;) Jul 13 19:08:35 there's a thread on the lists lobbying for GTA02 to be released as board-only so we can upgrade from 01 to get wifi, accel etc. without needing new screen, battery etc. Jul 13 19:08:57 * SpeedEvil also wants P1 to be available as board only. Jul 13 19:09:06 jpcass: I want easyware, not hardware.. ;) Jul 13 19:09:18 I want to be able to make a simple connection board to plug PSP LCDs into it. Jul 13 19:09:32 so long as there are stable interfaces/connectors it should be no problem. Jul 13 19:09:42 im a bit worried about the wifi aerial though. Jul 13 19:09:55 In what way? Jul 13 19:10:04 so if I want a few of the one with accels, and wait until october, may I get a prototype if it is delayed? Jul 13 19:10:12 whats that fetish of yours about psp parts Jul 13 19:10:23 What do you mean may get a prototype? Jul 13 19:10:30 well its not there in GTA01 but will be needed in 02 - where does it go? it wont be on the board. and it'll need a new connector i guess Jul 13 19:10:46 there's space at the top Jul 13 19:10:54 buz: They are cheap on ebay. Jul 13 19:10:55 I thought swapping lcd's was really hard Jul 13 19:11:00 jedix: it depends. Jul 13 19:11:05 yeah but WHY would one want them Jul 13 19:11:11 something [almost] working but not necessarily polished Jul 13 19:11:40 buz: It's a nice bright display. It's not very suitable for a PDA. But there are other apps. Jul 13 19:11:52 Drakeson: maybe if you come up with a very good reason for it Jul 13 19:11:57 like developping a killer app on it Jul 13 19:12:19 did sun get gta01 prototypes for that javafx demo, btw? Jul 13 19:12:22 unless wifi can use the same aerial as gsm? Jul 13 19:12:22 Drakeson: It is very unlikely you will get phase2 hardware before Oct. Jul 13 19:12:43 jpcass: it can use a seperate small one. Jul 13 19:13:02 Drakeson, if i were you i'd order one p1 now to get started as soon as possible, then more of the p2 devices when they are ready Jul 13 19:13:08 You really want to keep it away from bluetooth if you can. Jul 13 19:13:48 what is p1 or p2? Jul 13 19:14:58 Currently available anbd October Jul 13 19:15:50 re Jul 13 19:24:30 I have to develop for a similar device, and among the current platforms I came here because it is open source. How does this community compare to the community around nokia770/800 Jul 13 19:24:32 ? Jul 13 19:24:50 make qemu require gcc 3.x but doesnt download and build it, is that something we could put into a bitbake? Jul 13 19:25:04 is openmoko more open source than the others? Jul 13 19:25:54 in fact it is Jul 13 19:25:58 It's open top to bottom, exceptions being the GPS daemon, for munitions-control law reasons Jul 13 19:25:58 Drakeson: the nokia tablets aren't opensource Jul 13 19:26:08 show me the code for *all* kernel modules and gui bits Jul 13 19:26:15 in some way, openmoko is the ONLY open source project Jul 13 19:26:38 the agpsd is a tarnish, but hopefully replaceable Jul 13 19:26:54 still, notably more open than maemo Jul 13 19:27:33 annoyingly my 770 had problems in power management, a module that was not open ;-( Jul 13 19:27:35 yeah, i like the fact that we are open top-to-bottom and then you list exceptions Jul 13 19:27:41 the maemo is closed top-to-bottom and then you list exceptions Jul 13 19:28:04 well, i guess i mean the n770 Jul 13 19:28:16 then today i experienced the "white screen of death" Jul 13 19:28:29 hahaha maybe the bsod will be my lock screen Jul 13 19:30:43 is the hardware designed by the community as well? Jul 13 19:30:48 plus, openmoko inc's attitude about openness is way more consistent than nokia's... Jul 13 19:30:52 no Jul 13 19:31:22 No, they're just making some really Neat Shit, and not fighting any openness in the design. Jul 13 19:31:24 and make no mistake, openmoko inc is at the center of software development too, open as it is Jul 13 19:31:27 No hiding debug points and all that. Jul 13 19:31:53 Drakeson, hardware is documented: http://svnweb.openmoko.org/trunk/doc/hardware/ Jul 13 19:32:48 i hope GTA03 uses faster networks Jul 13 19:32:51 here's something for the omg fpga crowd http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/NS7630000844.html Jul 13 19:34:05 Wow. Jul 13 19:36:10 nice price :p Jul 13 19:42:36 tuukkah: aahhh - the way it should be! http://www.johnkerry.plus.com/qemu-moko-screen.jpg Jul 13 19:43:16 =) Jul 13 19:43:56 qemu! Jul 13 19:45:16 its quite nice on desktop screen at least... Jul 13 19:46:46 re Jul 13 19:47:01 dih dum, OpenMoko is booting in my little window Jul 13 19:48:03 MrFeetio: GTA03 should have UMTS Jul 13 19:48:21 loufoque why? Jul 13 19:48:27 loufoque: I'd imagine it's more complex than that. Jul 13 19:48:35 I't expect 03 to be several localised models Jul 13 19:48:51 GSM + UTMS, GSM + .... Jul 13 19:49:20 SpeedEvil: the specs for the other devices will be announced when 02 is available right? Jul 13 19:49:26 Who knows. Jul 13 19:49:30 !count Jul 13 19:49:41 I think at this point that it's hard to assume. Jul 13 19:49:41 http://www.google.com/gmm/gps.html Jul 13 19:49:50 I thought that's what seans initial 'availability/sale' email said Jul 13 19:50:09 Well - things change. Jul 13 19:50:16 true Jul 13 19:50:21 It's been a long time since then. Jul 13 19:50:27 And internal reorganisations. Jul 13 19:50:28 true Jul 13 19:50:52 since what? Jul 13 19:50:53 orzo652: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.) Jul 13 19:51:06 oh right, I guess that could easily change things coupled with time and the changingness of things :-) Jul 13 19:51:09 I see your point Jul 13 19:51:10 Practically - I've given up expecting them to hold to pronouncements made some time ago. Jul 13 19:51:19 The next announce is about it. Jul 13 19:51:29 mm Jul 13 19:52:21 I understand _why_ things change - but ... Jul 13 19:52:35 but what? Jul 13 19:53:14 But expecting predictions made some time ago to hold as things change dramatically inside FIC is probably optimistic. Jul 13 19:53:39 On the other hand, that could be good too. Jul 13 19:53:54 yeah, that's fair. I'm just impatient, and I like to have answers now. Then I sort of walk into a project where things are still moving pretty rapidly, and answers aren't available :-) Jul 13 19:54:18 To a small extent this is the core team not communicating promptly. Jul 13 19:54:21 yeah, I'm hoping these changes inside of FIC help, rather than hinder, the process Jul 13 19:54:35 To a larger one it's they don't know it. Jul 13 19:54:43 mm Jul 13 19:56:32 any new word on the phones? Jul 13 19:56:36 has anybody information about the status of gta_02? Jul 13 19:56:37 Personally I'm not too worried about pre-announcements. I figure that the longer they have before they set things in stone the more chance they have of bringing out a cutting edge device Jul 13 19:56:48 Yeah. Jul 13 19:57:03 The edge they're cutting is moving away, as time goes by. Jul 13 19:57:08 So it's not that simple. Jul 13 19:57:15 Exactly Jul 13 19:57:32 jgm: true... at least personally, I'm locked into a cdma contract for another year and a half, so I like to look ahead :-) Jul 13 19:58:23 The good news where I am (UK) is that I can stick with the contract but just use the Neo instead of my existing 'phone so I don't care so much about the contract Jul 13 19:58:30 (Plus pay-as-you-go SIMs are very cheap) Jul 13 19:59:23 anyone know what web browser in being used in openmoko? Jul 13 19:59:48 nothing concrete planned Jul 13 20:00:09 minimo comes up a lot. http://www.mozilla.org/projects/minimo/ Jul 13 20:00:10 maybe a port of minimo, maybe something webkit based (GdkLauncher) Jul 13 20:01:01 imho GdkLauncher looks promising, we'll see if it get's usable Jul 13 20:01:56 so the web app running in qemu is a place-holder? Jul 13 20:02:19 gdklauncher is some sort of wrapper around webkit? Jul 13 20:03:26 we got the openmoko os running on qemu? why did I, for a second, think that was not possible? Jul 13 20:03:59 its possible and its easy. mokomakefile and make qemu Jul 13 20:04:01 bkruse: bad weed? :) Jul 13 20:04:08 don-o: ya, the hydro stuff :[ Jul 13 20:04:18 jpcass: great, its dev time, thank you Jul 13 20:04:30 does it bind to sound devices properly? i love qemu Jul 13 20:05:30 jgm: I came across an ebay auction yesterday. 100 orange SIMs for 6 quid. Jul 13 20:05:39 (needing activation of course) Jul 13 20:06:53 SpeedEvil: those would do you good? Jul 13 20:06:57 what do you plan on doing with em Jul 13 20:07:00 or, would Jul 13 20:07:13 Err - no, they wouldn't be of much use. Jul 13 20:07:25 You need to top them up with 10 quid before they will work. Jul 13 20:07:49 The only possible nice thing would be you stand a reasonable chance of getting a number that you can at least pick a couple of digits of. Jul 13 20:08:35 1973! Jul 13 20:16:55 Think you only see the number after it's been activated don't you? Jul 13 20:17:39 Think Orange only charge £5 for activation (either them or T-Mobile, can't remember) but no idea how they handle data Jul 13 20:18:03 For activating what ? Jul 13 20:18:12 SIM cards Jul 13 20:18:14 Adding your IMSI into the HLR? Jul 13 20:18:16 Ahh Jul 13 20:18:18 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[OpenMoko_Local_Groups:_Detroit]] [[OpenMoko_Local_Groups]] [[User:Tetraden]] [[Buying_Interest_List]] [[OpenMoko_Local_Groups:_Helsinki]] [[OpenMoko_Local_Groups:_Gothenburg]] [[Wishlist:Neo1973_P1_Review]] [[OpenMoko_Local_Groups:_London]] and other changes Jul 13 20:18:48 bye Jul 13 20:18:57 Would be nice if we could 'emulate' SIM cards in the software so we didn't need the physical items, no idea if that is allowable/legal or not though Jul 13 20:19:30 Well the security is certainly weak, you can certainly crack them (i have before). Jul 13 20:20:14 But I think that the GSM chip they're using has physical pinouts for the sim, so the chip itself (not the openmoko platform) would have to be changed. Jul 13 20:20:52 yes, the sim is hooked to the proprietary GSM chip directly Jul 13 20:21:12 out openmoko between the sim and the gsm chip :-) Jul 13 20:21:15 Or you could link the SIM back to another input from the Neo but that's all beginning to sound too fiddly for me (I like a delete button with my hacks) Jul 13 20:21:19 s/o/p/ Jul 13 20:21:20 tuukkah meant: put openmoko between the sim and the gsm chip :-) Jul 13 20:21:28 tuukah: No it's not. Jul 13 20:21:31 suppose one could redirect the sim pins somewhere else creatively... Jul 13 20:21:32 ohh Jul 13 20:21:53 jgm, yeah Jul 13 20:22:09 i don't see what it would buy you. the beauty of gsm is that it's easy to move carriers, just grab a new sim if carrier a pisses you off. Jul 13 20:22:20 *nod* Jul 13 20:22:22 (assuming you didn't buy a simlocked device) Jul 13 20:22:48 SIMs are quite okay Jul 13 20:22:48 high-rez, and of course, we don't Jul 13 20:22:51 high-rez: multiple 'personalities' in the'phone Jul 13 20:23:13 jgm: Use a sim cloner, e.g. the 16 in 1 super sims. Jul 13 20:23:28 Aha, didn't know they existed. Off to Google I go... Jul 13 20:24:04 jgm: They exist, and they work. HOwever, to change between IMSI's, you have to use the software provided or have a device that supports the STK. Jul 13 20:24:13 (which at the moment, I don't believe openmoko does) Jul 13 20:32:00 can the phone read off whatever is needed on the sim chip and save it so you dont need the chip? Jul 13 20:32:16 no Jul 13 20:32:28 Anyone seen ph5? Jul 13 20:32:28 no, the phone can't. the chip really can't even, it's encrypted on the chip. Jul 13 20:33:12 orzo652 - The sim wont ever give out that info. Jul 13 20:33:25 Unless you have the magic key. Jul 13 20:33:31 (which only the network has) Jul 13 20:33:40 Well you can brute force the key. Jul 13 20:33:56 But some chips will lock up (brick) after so many wrong tries. Jul 13 20:34:24 I never looked at the used crypto. Jul 13 20:35:44 it took me ~15 mins to brute force into my sim in order to copy it onto a multisim Jul 13 20:37:09 So in other words: The crypto is straight bad. Jul 13 20:37:42 it uses 128bit key Jul 13 20:37:59 but? Jul 13 20:38:03 Well, 128bit is good, but the rest seems bad. Jul 13 20:38:40 or is it 128-bit rsa? :] Jul 13 20:38:49 (no, I don't know anything about sim security either) Jul 13 20:39:36 I checked with #maemo as well. I think openmoko is the way to go. Jul 13 20:40:30 in order to get me started until [hopefully] october that the device with accels gets ready, I should know about the development environment. Jul 13 20:40:58 drakeson ;) Jul 13 20:41:00 which is available as of wasit March Jul 13 20:41:01 is the platform debian-based? Jul 13 20:41:10 openembedded-based Jul 13 20:41:16 no openembedded Jul 13 20:41:36 what is the package management system then? Jul 13 20:41:54 ipkg Jul 13 20:42:06 which is derivated from dpkg Jul 13 20:43:14 Drakeson what do you want to do with the accels Jul 13 20:43:35 he's already been advised of limitations :] Jul 13 20:44:23 I want to play with them and find which one of my imaginations can be turned into reality. (actually that will form my grad research) Jul 13 20:45:19 is it hard to set up the development environment on my debian machine? Jul 13 20:45:26 shouldn't Jul 13 20:45:40 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/MokoMakefile Jul 13 20:45:41 (i.e., do most people do it on debian?) Jul 13 20:46:38 thanks Jul 13 20:52:08 i want to play with them too Jul 13 20:52:43 there should be some cheap accelerometer toys available for hackers to play with Jul 13 20:53:01 maybe the gumstick people will make them Jul 13 20:55:15 orzo652: sparkfun.com should keep you busy :) Jul 13 20:56:14 hello fello mokoers :) Jul 13 20:56:31 Wiimote also. Jul 13 20:56:40 okay can the dev devices you can buy now be used to make calls? Jul 13 20:56:43 You can use the wiimote and bluetoot to test accels. Jul 13 20:56:46 The answer to almost all software questions is 'no'. There is very little working software - the dialer just about works. Jul 13 20:56:48 * don-o gives holycow the secret-moko-handshake Jul 13 20:56:57 lol! Jul 13 20:57:21 SpeedEvil, aha okay, so if i want to be able to use it, wait until the sept release Jul 13 20:57:22 The dialer should get better rapidly in a couple of weeks after the phones arrive I'd imagine. Jul 13 20:57:25 i think youu can make a phone call. Harald and sean did demosnstrate a call Jul 13 20:57:30 Basicallyu holycow, yes. Jul 13 20:57:37 actually, I'm _EXCITED_ about a phone I can't call with :) Jul 13 20:57:43 empty_mind: making a call and actually being a usable phone are a bit differenet. Jul 13 20:57:51 ive read that receiving a call is more adventurous. Jul 13 20:58:05 aha okay thats no problem, i'm not a real programmer but i would like to be able to make calls and then start fooling around with python on it Jul 13 20:58:15 I'm glad if I don't have to recieve calls aswell :) Jul 13 20:58:27 would be cool to use moko as a remote Jul 13 20:58:29 :) Jul 13 20:58:37 gah. "Insanity" is still the lead planet post. moko devels need to blog more. Jul 13 20:58:39 holycow: well i am already fooling around with python on it Jul 13 20:59:01 empty_mind, yeah? cool! which version does it ship with if at all? Jul 13 20:59:05 Fatal: haha. so that is a feature? Jul 13 20:59:15 holycow: i asked that on the list. no answer. Jul 13 20:59:24 don-o: If I replace my work phone with the neo, YES Jul 13 20:59:32 ah k. no biggie just curious Jul 13 20:59:36 holnone, we are working on python run faster on the device Jul 13 20:59:50 Fatal, you dial out on it? incoming calls ui works? Jul 13 21:00:16 s/ holnone/ holycow none Jul 13 21:00:20 holycow: I wouldn't know Jul 13 21:00:41 empty_mind, cool! Jul 13 21:00:55 Fatal, danke. Jul 13 21:06:11 holycow: sometime next week a couple hundred people (at least) will have the moko and there will be lots of reports. Jul 13 21:06:33 oh right i forgot, it actually takes TIME to ship this stuff Jul 13 21:06:49 :) lol i'm so naiive Jul 13 21:06:49 well just excited Jul 13 21:06:55 heh. i think customs is the big question at the moment. Jul 13 21:07:07 US peeps first prolly Jul 13 21:07:10 *mmhmm* there is that Jul 13 21:07:19 customs-- Jul 13 21:07:29 it took forever for my Zaurus to come from japan because of them Jul 13 21:07:44 Bastards confiscated a shipment of laser pointers to me. Jul 13 21:07:50 has any of you guys received the email with your order status ? Jul 13 21:07:50 really? Jul 13 21:07:51 Because they were allegedly 5.03mW Jul 13 21:08:02 with 5mW being the safety limit. Jul 13 21:08:03 SpeedEvil: clearly military grade :) Jul 13 21:08:07 'for the public good'. Jul 13 21:08:16 SpeedEvil, what kind of laser pointers? Jul 13 21:08:19 yeah, well, stop trying to bend the rules :-) Jul 13 21:08:21 red ones. Jul 13 21:08:30 10 of. Jul 13 21:08:32 yeah, but 1W or 1mW ? etc Jul 13 21:08:50 summatusmentis, i just ordered a umpc from japan, i expect for it to take forewer to get through customs too Jul 13 21:09:01 * SpeedEvil passes psi a book entitled "Reading Comprehension for ldfshdfhsdj". Jul 13 21:09:17 oh, hehe Jul 13 21:09:30 holycow: yeah, mine took quite a while Jul 13 21:09:36 SpeedEvil, i had no idea customs actually had a clue about anything Jul 13 21:09:38 guess i shouldnt skim read irc Jul 13 21:09:42 how can they look up stuff like that? Jul 13 21:09:55 holycow: Laser pointers were big news at the time. Jul 13 21:10:00 They were cracking down. Jul 13 21:10:02 holycow: they don't employ first grade students Jul 13 21:10:07 heh weird Jul 13 21:17:37 ruimoreir1: I haven't heard of anyone getting confirmation yet... see the wiki (http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/SH1_FAQ#I.27ve_ordered_several_days_ago_and_received_no_confirmation_that_the_order_was_accepted._Is_this_ok.3F_Will_I_still_get_a_phone.3F) Jul 13 21:20:05 gcb77: sorry ... i think you understand all the excitment that we all (all think i am not the only one) are going through Jul 13 21:20:06 :P Jul 13 21:20:31 ruimoreir1: whishes to ibernate :D Jul 13 21:20:41 ruimoreir1: lol, you're telling me... I've been checking my e-mail every 5 minutes since Sunday when I placed the order Jul 13 21:20:50 ;) Jul 13 21:21:01 we all want our phones to be free :P Jul 13 21:21:46 good thinkg :D .... i think that project Openmoko will be very good in the future :D Jul 13 21:22:55 Right I've done my bit for the night, managed to build a dev environment with telepathy/mission-control/empathy. I'll see if I can get some time to actually understand them at the weekend to see if they will be able to handle the messaging requirements Jul 13 21:23:23 jgm what linux distro do you use ? Jul 13 21:23:31 ubuntu (on a vm) Jul 13 21:23:36 thks Jul 13 21:23:56 i expect a parallel open source project to pop up at some point. Jul 13 21:24:03 people who dont like the gtk approach for instance. Jul 13 21:24:08 could be fun :) Jul 13 21:24:32 don-o: a parallel project to what? Jul 13 21:24:35 if one of you gents was able to compile a dev environment under fedora 7 please tell me how ..... plzzzzzzzzz Jul 13 21:24:43 jgm: Ping me on that -- I do a lot of close watching of telepathy related thigns Jul 13 21:24:57 Aria: willdo Jul 13 21:25:14 summatusmentis: an alternative to openmoko that runs on the neo Jul 13 21:25:34 is the neo part of 1973 taken directly from The Matrix or is that a coincidence? Jul 13 21:25:34 (pah great example of why we need to fix messaging, I can't tag you with a note or anything from here so have to rely on my brain, which isn't a great strategy) Jul 13 21:25:41 don-o: oh... well, there was talk of a qt based one Jul 13 21:25:51 don-o: neo == new Jul 13 21:25:55 opieII? Jul 13 21:25:57 *g* Jul 13 21:26:06 And 1973 was the first mobile phone I think Jul 13 21:26:08 summatusmentis: the netbsd people will probably make their own party at some point Jul 13 21:26:09 Yeah Jul 13 21:26:18 or >e17? Jul 13 21:27:09 'night Jul 13 21:27:21 i want my neo Jul 13 21:27:26 don-o: netbsd? there's openbsd on the Z Jul 13 21:27:31 i suppose i could start developing some of the UI using my ipaq for usability testing Jul 13 21:27:42 woglinde: I think e17 is at least being explored Jul 13 21:28:17 summatusmentis no really true mickeyl did a lot with even in the past Jul 13 21:28:24 galexande: same here .... snif snifff Jul 13 21:28:50 woglinde: oh, ok Jul 13 21:28:55 I stand corrected Jul 13 21:30:21 galexande: remember our conversation yesterday ? Jul 13 21:30:33 where i couldn't build the devel environment ? Jul 13 21:30:42 the problem is ncurses Jul 13 21:31:49 be-root Jul 13 21:41:13 ruimor, i don't think i had any trouble with ncurses, so i can't help :) Jul 13 21:42:14 k Jul 13 21:42:16 thks Jul 13 21:50:47 hi Jul 13 21:52:27 neo still not planned to do EDGE etc, right? Jul 13 21:53:01 not any announced plans, no Jul 13 21:53:50 what you all have with edge and umts Jul 13 21:54:02 and all the frequencies. Jul 13 21:54:18 edge isn't significantly faster than gprs, is it? Jul 13 21:54:26 no Jul 13 21:54:30 Several times faster Jul 13 21:54:34 * ferric can't tell the diff Jul 13 21:54:37 at most Jul 13 21:54:40 and roundtrip time is the same Jul 13 21:54:44 so what Jul 13 21:54:46 gprs is 0kb/sec where as edge is 170? Jul 13 21:54:57 er, 50kb/sec now 0 Jul 13 21:55:00 er, not 0 Jul 13 21:55:03 * ferric can't type or think. Jul 13 21:55:21 ferric yes If not serval other people use it at the same time Jul 13 21:57:01 gprs/edge speed diminish if you travel at high speeds right?(car) Jul 13 21:57:44 the first thing i'm gonna do is get a high speed evdo usb dongle Jul 13 21:57:55 As you approach lightspeed, your local clock slows down, so it only appears slower. Jul 13 21:57:55 * ferric must get his neo dev environment setup today. Jul 13 21:58:07 lol SpeedEvil Jul 13 21:58:24 is MakeMokoFile the right way to start getting openmoko and toolchains, etc along with qemu¿ Jul 13 21:59:15 ferric, it sure is a convenient way Jul 13 21:59:30 considering how much overwork it does, it is really pretty slick and snappy :) Jul 13 22:00:09 lol Jul 13 22:00:10 ok Jul 13 22:00:33 gotta get rid of freebsd and move back to ubuntu and setup MakeMoko then. Jul 13 22:00:37 * ferric leaves for home. Jul 13 22:01:53 openmoko is building since 5 hours or so here :) Jul 13 22:02:40 no camera either, correct? Jul 13 22:02:49 correct Jul 13 22:03:38 thomasg_gpm: yup. took me about 8 hours. Jul 13 22:03:40 and no usb host, just client, yes? is the client usb 2.0 ? Jul 13 22:03:50 TimRiker: usb host and client. Jul 13 22:03:57 1.1 Jul 13 22:04:04 faq? Jul 13 22:04:05 See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ Jul 13 22:04:06 unpowered host Jul 13 22:04:08 * SpeedEvil points TimRiker at it Jul 13 22:04:37 galexande: that means most webcams wouldn't work with it, right? because they get all their juice from the USB bus? Jul 13 22:04:49 * TimRiker wonders why the "hardware" page http://www.openmoko.com/products-neo-base-03-hardware.html does not say more about the hardware. Jul 13 22:04:50 yes. Jul 13 22:04:58 yeah, you'di have to add +5v from soamewhere Jul 13 22:05:00 It'd need a external power thingy Jul 13 22:05:06 TimRiker: the wiki Jul 13 22:05:08 ferric, edge can be much faster than gprs. gprs is up to 60kb/s, edge up tu 380kb/s (practical up to 200) Jul 13 22:05:13 Hmm, noone triggered a build on buildhost in a week. Interesting. Jul 13 22:05:25 I suppose you *could* use any USB device, as long as you had a powered hub between the neo and the device. Jul 13 22:05:41 timriker, i think it is a clear demonstration of what happens when kernel hackers and so on write ecommerce :) Jul 13 22:05:52 Indeed. Jul 13 22:06:01 malsyned: but then there was a bit on the mailing list about usb hubs being confused by an unpowered host Jul 13 22:06:22 guys i can't compile the mokomakefile .... should i try and build from scratch ? Jul 13 22:06:31 ruimoreir1: heeck no Jul 13 22:06:38 k Jul 13 22:06:44 don-o: is that a kind of confusion that you're likely to run into, or does it just affect specific hub models? Jul 13 22:06:56 ruimoreir1: i mean the mokomakefile is the easy way. if thats not working ,the hard way isnt going to be better. although i havent done the hard way myself. Jul 13 22:06:59 problem with building openmoko: what could that be? http://phpfi.com/249576 Jul 13 22:07:20 malsyned: The Belkin USB tetrahub for example doesn't. Jul 13 22:07:22 malsyned: i got the feeling it was likely as people were talking about hacking up usb cables. Jul 13 22:07:35 And a no-name hub that I have doesn't. Jul 13 22:07:42 thomasg_gpm its in the moko faq for build failure Jul 13 22:07:48 It's a minor cable mod generally though Jul 13 22:07:48 wiki Jul 13 22:07:50 don-o: i can't figure out the error what o was thinking about as ... doing it step by step to try and catch the thing ;) Jul 13 22:07:54 woglinde, ah, k, sry. thx :) Jul 13 22:08:04 SpeedEvil: doesn't get confused, or doesn't work? Jul 13 22:08:05 thomasg_gpm and discussed here and in oe serval times Jul 13 22:08:54 ruimore, just do whatever qucik hack gets the current step to proceed (however you want to figure that out), then you can get it going again and ignore it for another 4 hours :) Jul 13 22:10:19 malsyned: doesn't work. Jul 13 22:10:47 malsyned: doesn't recognise the host until it supplies 5V Jul 13 22:10:52 The host Jul 13 22:11:05 sorry for mentioning my problem all the time ..... btw Jul 13 22:11:22 speed, so just open it up and make a jumper from the hub's power supply to the input +5V :) Jul 13 22:11:23 np, eventually ou may find someone with a clue. Jul 13 22:11:23 * TimRiker returns from reading the faq. Jul 13 22:11:26 that's surprising. I wonder if it's a problem with the USB standard or with some ubiquitous USB hub chip. Jul 13 22:11:40 put a resistor on it so it doesn't draw a lot of current if they're both supplying +5V Jul 13 22:11:41 malsyned: the Neo violates the USB standard. Jul 13 22:11:52 malsyned: hosts should be powered. Jul 13 22:12:01 woglinde can't find anything (except this dash thing) in the wiki. can you give me a link please? Jul 13 22:12:11 malsyned: to at least 100mA. Jul 13 22:12:34 thomasg hm let me see Jul 13 22:12:55 ah. well that explains it. Jul 13 22:13:13 wasnt there talk of a special cable to turn the neo into a powered host? Jul 13 22:13:22 thomas, you're experiencing that problem? do you have a /usr/include/asm/page.h on your host computer? Jul 13 22:13:23 Is it worth getting out the soldering iron, or would it just drain the battery too fast? Jul 13 22:13:34 my wishlist is for a proper usb 2.0 otg connection on the next rev. :) Jul 13 22:13:38 orzo, yeah it's not a difficult hack Jul 13 22:14:30 orzo: there are similar cables for the nokia 770 and n800 around. I'd expect they would work on the neo too. Jul 13 22:14:54 same issue. it's a client that will do un-powered host if you insist on it. Jul 13 22:15:09 is the neo's mini-usb connector standard at all? (my guess is no) Jul 13 22:15:10 s/client/device/ Jul 13 22:15:11 TimRiker meant: same issue. it's a device that will do un-powered host if you insist on it. Jul 13 22:15:44 galexande: yes. standard mini-b? device connector from what I've read. Jul 13 22:15:54 thomasg hm Jul 13 22:15:55 nice Jul 13 22:16:04 I tought it was in there Jul 13 22:16:11 again, same as the nokia tablets, many phones, etc. Jul 13 22:17:18 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[BuggyOrders]] [[User:Micktaiwan]] [[Buying_Interest_List]] [[Current_events]] [[IMEI]] [[OpenMoko_Local_Groups:_Madrid]] [[OpenMoko_Local_Groups]] [[Talk:OpenMoko_Local_Groups:_Warsaw]] [[Digital_gaming]] Jul 13 22:19:03 thomasg hm its kernel headers you have to do symlink by your self Jul 13 22:22:18 so who would buy this? Jul 13 22:22:19 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Digital_gaming#Interest Jul 13 22:22:56 MrFeetio: Nice mock up :) Jul 13 22:23:04 its not mine Jul 13 22:23:21 Ok. Wonder how they plan to connect the buttons Jul 13 22:24:02 how hard would it be Jul 13 22:24:12 i assume there are extra pins on the mobo Jul 13 22:24:38 multi-touch is the future :( Jul 13 22:24:50 we will see Jul 13 22:25:26 hm Jul 13 22:25:33 i agree Jul 13 22:25:53 thats kinda random Jul 13 22:25:58 just to say that Jul 13 22:27:29 TimRiker: otg ftw Jul 13 22:29:38 does Linux have otg support? Jul 13 22:30:20 otg? Jul 13 22:30:34 on the go Jul 13 22:30:37 malsyned: yes. I've got a number of dev boards that do full otg. cable switching and software request switching all supported. Jul 13 22:30:56 2.0 spec for host and client, etc. Jul 13 22:31:22 nice. is that a feature of the USB chipset? Jul 13 22:31:32 well, a chipset, yes. Jul 13 22:32:11 so you wouldn't be able to hack support for OTG into the Neo1973 in software. Jul 13 22:32:12 for most cpus you need to add external support logic to comply with the otg specs. the samsung appears to be one of those. Jul 13 22:32:59 hmm. you'd need to add the support chips and tie into a (non-existant?) 5v power source. ie: it would be non-trivial. Jul 13 22:33:32 and the drivers would not find what they expect on other neos, so you'd likely break normal usb support. Jul 13 22:34:01 oh.. and the bootloader firmware upgrade would break too as it would need to know about the new chips too. Jul 13 22:34:30 * TimRiker is not a fan of the USB Device Firmware Upgrade spec. Jul 13 22:36:54 much rather have the bootloader be a usb-serial device and take xmodem or similar uploads if needed. DFU is much more limiting. Jul 13 22:38:54 In what way? Jul 13 22:40:10 in what way what? Jul 13 22:40:17 is it more limiting? Jul 13 22:40:22 yes Jul 13 22:40:41 if you used the u-boot usb-serial mode then you have a bootloader prompt. Jul 13 22:40:57 * SpeedEvil needs to read the DFU spec. Jul 13 22:41:07 I'm planning on putting security in there. Jul 13 22:41:09 you an upload or download firmware, sure, but you can also set kernel parameters, tell it to copy to/from sd card, etc. Jul 13 22:41:13 Maybe require hashed images. Jul 13 22:41:25 rdev-like would be a hack Jul 13 22:41:38 hashed and/or cryptographically signed images.. Jul 13 22:41:39 Can't you do that over usb-serial anyway Jul 13 22:41:46 yeah. Jul 13 22:41:56 not the u-boot you can't at present, right? Jul 13 22:42:04 I thought you could. Jul 13 22:42:10 I haven't looked at the source. Jul 13 22:42:13 TimRiker: did you order one yet? ;) Jul 13 22:42:14 u-boot just enumerates as a DFU now, no? Jul 13 22:42:16 It's just what was implied by comments Jul 13 22:42:34 I thought you could use it as a serial console too. Jul 13 22:42:43 hozer: having issues with those-who-should-pay-for-it. :) it's just a matter of time. Jul 13 22:42:46 yeah i've heard usbtty Jul 13 22:42:52 I need to look at the source at some point. Jul 13 22:43:01 It tends to help with adding features :) Jul 13 22:43:09 speed, i hope you got the debug board Jul 13 22:43:11 from what I read, you can talk to userspace with usb-tty, but not u-boot. Jul 13 22:43:12 would there be any reason it couldn't enumerate as both DFU and a usbtty/serial device? Jul 13 22:43:30 tim, there is definitely a usb console with uboot, but you might have to do something zany to turn it on Jul 13 22:43:34 galexande: Actually not - I'll stall on deving on u-boot till I either get one, or make one. Jul 13 22:43:36 hozer, beats me Jul 13 22:43:38 if you can talk to u-boot over usb-serial, then you don't need DFU at all. Jul 13 22:43:50 DFU is a standard. Jul 13 22:43:53 Standards are good. Jul 13 22:43:57 In theory. Jul 13 22:44:02 so is z-modem :) Jul 13 22:44:09 x-modem! Jul 13 22:44:13 standards are only good if many people use them Jul 13 22:44:14 kermit! Jul 13 22:44:15 usb-serial is a much broader standard. and xmodem, or kermit even. etc. Jul 13 22:44:29 Broader can be bad. Jul 13 22:44:39 So, do user processes run as root on OpenMoko? Jul 13 22:44:46 The answer to almost all software questions is 'no'. There is very little working software - the dialer just about works. Jul 13 22:44:53 DFU is a practically unused standard that only addresses one need. ie: firmware upload/download. not things like setting kernel options etc. Jul 13 22:44:55 malsyned, choose your own adventure Jul 13 22:45:02 I'd say decisions as to what runs as what is later. Jul 13 22:45:09 so given an unused DFU standard, vs relatively simple usbtty code.. I'd say use usbtty Jul 13 22:45:13 TimRiker: rdev Jul 13 22:45:13 i guess if my ipaq was on the iddernet, i wouldn't run everything as root with no pw :) Jul 13 22:45:34 galexande: then I'll rephrase: will the default suite of user applications in the mass-market release of the Neo1973 version of OpenMoko be running as root? Jul 13 22:45:42 SpeedEvil: don't know what you mean by rdev. Jul 13 22:45:45 galexande: Eventually. I want to see OM running all process as user Jul 13 22:45:57 malsyned, once several people have chosen their adventure, we'll find out Jul 13 22:45:58 galexande: but I'm not anyone official. Jul 13 22:46:21 TimRiker: rdev was/is a method of setting magic bytes in the kernel to set a boot device. Jul 13 22:46:26 maemo runs everything as user "user". this seems a Good Thing. Jul 13 22:46:27 speed, i think it mostly depends on whether people make it work... i mean, OE supports users right? Jul 13 22:46:59 * hozer just had a disturbing idea of a multi-user phone Jul 13 22:47:02 SpeedEvil: ugh... that old thing? so to turn on/off my serial console you suggest I need to reflash a kernel? nice. Jul 13 22:47:07 hahaha hozer Jul 13 22:47:08 I think it's probably a good idea if the answer winds up being 'no'. this is basically an Internet-connected Linux box. running arbitrary network-aware applications as root is asking to bring trouble to your door. with the resulting bad PR for the platform. Jul 13 22:47:20 "Oh, don't get one of those open phones, they're so easy to hack!" Jul 13 22:47:25 TimRiker: no - I was meaning misuse DFU to send arbitrary images, some of which are magic. Jul 13 22:47:40 SpeedEvil: ugh... Jul 13 22:47:59 Ideally. I might even want to have my phone with a 'guest' account - accessible through the screensaver. Jul 13 22:48:23 Which can for example queue outgoing texts/emails, play games, ... Jul 13 22:48:25 SpeedEvil: yeah.. or log into your phone with a two-factor authentication system like a cryptocard ;) Jul 13 22:48:26 it would suck if you hook up the neo to someone else's pc to charge and his ipod updater reflashes your rom Jul 13 22:48:41 that's another thing... on some embedded devices I've done, I put the kernel inside the filesystem. this and no initrd means you have 3 flash partitions. bootloader, parameters for bootloader, and rootfs. Jul 13 22:49:11 TimRiker: kernel has to go inside filesystem, it can't be raw in NAND Jul 13 22:49:11 then as long as you don't brick things you can do all updates in userspace. including adding multiple kernels. Jul 13 22:49:19 TimRiker: as NAND has bit errors. Jul 13 22:49:40 right. but currently it's is a _different_ filesystem, yes? Jul 13 22:49:44 well - filesystem/with bootloader that knows where it is. Jul 13 22:49:46 AIUI, yes. Jul 13 22:49:46 jffs2 Jul 13 22:49:52 * hozer wonders if XIP is at all worth thinking about Jul 13 22:50:02 I'm doubtful. Jul 13 22:50:11 hozer: not on any hardware I've dealt with. Jul 13 22:50:20 XIP is technically impossible in this case. Jul 13 22:50:23 it is faster to boot, yes, but then slower on runtime. Jul 13 22:50:41 The NAND can't have code executed from it IIRC Jul 13 22:50:51 and would require expensive hacked up support logic to get it working on nand. Jul 13 22:50:52 I may be wrong on this. Jul 13 22:50:59 compressed jffs2 files as backing store would probably be better Jul 13 22:51:22 SpeedEvil: base nand can't. there are nand chips that add support logic to allow it though. Jul 13 22:51:44 see DOC for a lame, pricey example. Jul 13 22:52:50 putting the kernel and userspace in the same fs makes better use of the flash as you only need one erase pool, and you can have larger or smaller kernels and more that one kernel if you like. Jul 13 22:53:12 I'd prefer seperate partitions. Jul 13 22:53:28 It makes logic to utterly disallow writes to that partition in kernel simpler. Jul 13 22:53:31 this of course supposes that you can get to u-boot somehow to select a kernel. something that DFU does not offer. Jul 13 22:54:03 With a signed kernel, and u-boot requiring a new signed image to upgrade... Jul 13 22:54:08 SpeedEvil: and it wastes space. and inevitably you will run out of space with a dev kernel, Jul 13 22:54:30 and you'll have users that flash only one and find that the modules won't load, and.... etc. Jul 13 22:54:32 Boot from SD Jul 13 22:55:13 SpeedEvil: which again, I would want usb-serial to uboot to configure... Jul 13 22:56:01 the package manager should be able to upgrade a kernel Jul 13 22:56:11 there's not a lot of point in requiring a signed kernel, and NOT requiring signed kernel modules. Jul 13 22:56:30 if you want to block writing a new kernel, you need to block writes to the root FS as well Jul 13 22:56:35 it's a simple matter to add a new mtd driver that will let you flash anything. Jul 13 22:56:48 Well - I was more meaning signed kernel and base image. Jul 13 22:57:15 gee wouldn't it be nice if that was just one signed fs image then? Jul 13 22:57:34 I would say ideally, anything running as root should be in a single partition and/or signed image Jul 13 22:57:37 To an extent, yes. Jul 13 22:57:43 Ideally, yes hozer. Jul 13 22:57:47 and apps go in a second partition Jul 13 22:57:56 That would make me most comfortable. Jul 13 22:58:14 Hi there. having a problem compiling openmoko-libs. configure says: No package 'libecal-1.2' found. No package 'libgsmd' found. Just followed the instructions here: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/How_to_run_OpenMoko_Apps_on_PC Jul 13 22:58:16 This is only for secure cases of course. Jul 13 22:58:20 so, kernel + initramfs in a /boot partition Jul 13 22:58:27 why make it only for secure cases? Jul 13 22:58:32 True. Jul 13 22:58:43 sure, once it's shipping I would put the kernel, modules, base apps, libs, etc in a readonly fs and then userspace in the rest. Jul 13 22:59:09 course I'd like to talk to u-boot over usb-serial to set the partitioning on the kernel command line. Jul 13 22:59:30 I really also want the JTAG even to be lockable out without passphrase. Jul 13 22:59:36 That's a bit more trricky. Jul 13 22:59:46 just a little bit Jul 13 22:59:47 heh. yeah, good luck with that one. Jul 13 22:59:54 hah Jul 13 23:00:03 Epoxy may work almost as well. Jul 13 23:00:11 can you put a TPM chip or something on the board to store secret keys? Jul 13 23:00:13 hahahahah Jul 13 23:00:18 just cut a trace and have done with it. Jul 13 23:00:36 just pot the thing in epoxy Jul 13 23:00:39 Ideally I'd like it reversable, but... Jul 13 23:00:46 uh!! that's actually what is known as a good idea, maybe Jul 13 23:00:56 except i guess it doesn't do anything to protect the screen which is the only thing you'd break Jul 13 23:01:01 you could add a pic on board that changes it's jtag path length randomly. :) Jul 13 23:01:18 devious! Jul 13 23:01:23 I'm considering adding a PIC to mine in the debug port. Jul 13 23:01:33 what for Jul 13 23:01:40 Well - not to mine. Jul 13 23:01:47 For sale too. Jul 13 23:01:56 then you need to fiddle in a "password" over the jtag bits to get it to stablize. Jul 13 23:02:03 Accels, thermometers, baromters, gyroscopes, ... Jul 13 23:02:12 tim, or you could have the same random generator on the jtag programmer Jul 13 23:02:15 How will software updates on the phone be handled, via packages (ipkg) or via overwriting the root fs? Jul 13 23:02:29 speed, ah, you really think there is room enough in there for that? Jul 13 23:02:35 hehe Jul 13 23:02:44 galexande: not all of it - accels and pic - sure. Jul 13 23:02:47 i guess if you go at the case with a dremel there's room for everything Jul 13 23:02:48 QFN are small. Jul 13 23:02:57 Not actually touching the case. Jul 13 23:03:06 put a TPM chip on so you have a secure place to store secret keys ;0 Jul 13 23:03:07 cesarb, choose your own adventure Jul 13 23:03:12 cesarb: depends on the vendor's choice. on a dev unit you can use whatever you like. OpenEmbedded includes ipkg support. Jul 13 23:03:38 although I guess that's kind of useless unless the TPM can verify a signed U-Boot & kernel Jul 13 23:04:00 Won't overwriting the root fs all the time cause problems with the wear leveling, since the wear leveling is one level above it (on jffs2)? Jul 13 23:04:12 well, some chips include a "secure boot" mode. where the bootloader needs to be signed, and it then only loads signed kernels etc. Jul 13 23:04:40 cesarb, modern flash has 100,000 writes. you could flash the whole device every day for a year and still have 99,635 flashes left. Jul 13 23:04:44 cesarb: not in our lifetimes. Jul 13 23:04:55 the question is .. does this chip have it ;) Jul 13 23:04:57 what is hard on flash is writing to the same area very frequently Jul 13 23:05:37 galexande: I think the point was that reflashing the complete fs means writing to practially every location each time. Jul 13 23:05:54 riker, yeah, and you could do that to every location every day for a year and have 99,635 flashes left for each location Jul 13 23:05:58 The endurance of the NAND is OK Jul 13 23:06:18 With the logfs thing or whatever it's called, it should be fine. Jul 13 23:06:24 TimRiker: not every location, but the beginning of the flash Jul 13 23:06:25 galexande: I've seen NAND go bad, but not often these days. Jul 13 23:06:41 IIRC you're guaranteed 1000 writes for the first block with no errors. Jul 13 23:06:49 yeah, it won't ever go bad from reflashing the whole device on a user-activated event. i don't think i even receive 100,000 phone calls in the life of a phone Jul 13 23:06:50 TimRiker: I'm worried that the first n blocks of the partition will end up being rewritten every time you reflash, while the last n blocks will not... Jul 13 23:07:09 And at 100K writes over the whole device, it's guaranteed to be at its nominal capacity Jul 13 23:07:14 cesarb: reflashing a complete fs means a lot of writes. but as discussed, this is fine for the number of times it'll happen. Jul 13 23:07:39 cesarb: wearleveling is supposed to handle that. Jul 13 23:07:57 There is no wearlegveling ont eh NAND Jul 13 23:08:05 TimRiker: wear leveling is above the reflashing... it's on the filesystem itself Jul 13 23:08:36 in the mtd layer of u-boot and jffs2 there is some amount anyway. at least to handle bad blocks. Jul 13 23:10:22 TimRiker: bad blocks handling != wear leveling... Jul 13 23:10:32 it doesn't matter one way or the other for the twenty flashes it will see Jul 13 23:10:38 they should write the list and tell us why we arent getting the 2nd emails Jul 13 23:10:50 * TimRiker played with a neo at ols, but briefly. was tempted to whip out a usb cable to his laptop and see what he could learn there. :) Jul 13 23:11:21 orzo, they told us it wouldn't ship until thursday, so they have written everything they should have written Jul 13 23:11:25 i'm tired of people calling them uncommunicative Jul 13 23:11:37 we should save our annoyance for the 17th :) Jul 13 23:11:43 cesarb: true. but the jffs2 on nand does wear leveling and bad block in the same layer. all uboot needs really is bad-block. Jul 13 23:12:00 what's on the 17th? Jul 13 23:12:05 the day after. Jul 13 23:12:05 the day after they said they'd ship Jul 13 23:12:13 i don't know why i said thursday, i meant monday the 16th Jul 13 23:13:30 TimRiker - AFAIK on openmoko, the bad blocks are handled below the fs. Jul 13 23:16:35 I don't understand why libopenmoko is the dependence list of openmokolibs Jul 13 23:16:39 Elrond: on nand, last I was in there, there was quite a bit of overlap tween wear leveling and lower level bad block handling. dwmw2 (or others) may have changed things though. Jul 13 23:18:01 I meant libgsmd : checking for DEPS... configure: error: Package requirements (gtk+-2.0 >= 2. libecal-1.2 >= 1.4.2 gdk-pixbuf-2.0 libgsmd) Jul 13 23:19:38 * CM will level himself in the bed instead Jul 13 23:21:07 How can we compile the libs if one lib is needed ? Jul 13 23:27:31 ~seen roh Jul 13 23:27:53 roh was last seen on IRC in channel #openmoko, 21h 18m 56s ago, saying: 'orzo sounds like a major project if you want to start that.. but very cool.'. Jul 13 23:28:41 roh: if you are awake, I would like to visit the base/club/whatever Jul 13 23:28:58 how hard would it be to add buttons to the neo1973? Jul 13 23:29:53 MrFeetio: get some hotglue and a few buttons.... Jul 13 23:29:54 and i assume driver would be need for the buttons Jul 13 23:30:52 i can never seem to find any hot-glue sticks, how much do they cost at wal-mart? Jul 13 23:31:40 You need the special blue glue-sticks, if you want the buttons to be able to be usable over bluetooth. Jul 13 23:33:47 gluetooth? Jul 13 23:34:03 aevin: hehe Jul 13 23:34:53 the dev board has open pins. are gpios broght out there? Jul 13 23:35:03 watch out for sticky bits coming out the pipes Jul 13 23:35:19 TimRiker: look on the hardware page Jul 13 23:36:36 i hope someone makes the "digital gaming"(dpad, 4 buttons, shoulder buttons) Jul 13 23:37:10 otherwise the phone will miss out on alot of games Jul 13 23:37:57 iduno why they wanted no buttons in teh first place Jul 13 23:38:11 TimRiker: I'd guess they are for testing Jul 13 23:38:16 this is 2007.. why do you need buttons? Jul 13 23:38:18 ;-) Jul 13 23:38:19 TimRiker: on a bed-of-nails thingy Jul 13 23:38:39 TimRiker: so, they are probably the same ones in the flex cable to the debug board (i.e., jtag and serial) Jul 13 23:38:44 SpeedEvil: you mean the one I posted before that shows a picture and basically says "yep, this is the hardware" Jul 13 23:39:18 daMaestro: mame wants buttons. :) Jul 13 23:39:39 mame doesnt know about 2007 Jul 13 23:39:51 well, buttons are better Jul 13 23:40:04 for some things yes Jul 13 23:40:11 dialing Jul 13 23:40:30 dialing being one of them Jul 13 23:40:36 and typing Jul 13 23:40:40 I just want a touchscreen with tactile feedback. :) Jul 13 23:40:41 and games Jul 13 23:40:54 i was thinking about that Jul 13 23:41:09 TimRiker: you could make the phone vibrate when you press on the screen ;-) Jul 13 23:42:06 yeah, needs to be localized though. beeps get feedback, but not the same as button clicks. Jul 13 23:42:43 TimRiker, ahh yes.. mame would be awesome on the neo Jul 13 23:43:22 TimRiker, i think we are going to just have to get some post market design going and find (aka poke FIC) someone to build the keyboard/addon Jul 13 23:43:33 i suppose scummvm should work quite well on neo? Jul 13 23:43:35 TimRiker, just something like a modified case Jul 14 00:08:33 daMaestro: seen pics of the nokia n95? that kind of slide display is cool imho. Jul 14 00:10:04 i have not Jul 14 00:10:11 i'll look after i get done stuffing my face Jul 14 00:12:57 * * OM Bug 637 has been created by gronslet(AT)gmail.com Jul 14 00:12:58 * * MokoMakefile: Build fails: "tic: symbol lookup Jul 14 00:13:00 * * http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=637 Jul 14 00:17:18 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[OpenMoko_Local_Groups:_Canberra]] [[OpenMoko_Local_Groups]] [[Category:OpenMoko_Local_Groups:_Canberra]] [[OpenMoko_Local_Groups:_Toulouse]] [[User:Micktaiwan]] [[OpenMoko_Local_Groups:_Chicago]] Jul 14 00:56:02 [rt.internal.openmoko.org #1820] Your OpenMoko direct order Jul 14 00:56:18 NEW MAIL FROM Request Tracker - JUST RECEIVED Jul 14 00:56:53 Dear Valued Customer, Jul 14 00:56:53 since there has been some misunderstanding, we just want you to confirm Jul 14 00:56:53 one more time that you are aware that our products at this point in time Jul 14 00:56:53 ARE NOT END-USER DEVICES! So please let us warn you one more time: Jul 14 00:56:53 THIS IS A DEVELOPER RELEASE, NOT A CONSUMER PRODUCT!| Jul 14 00:57:58 Looks like they are compensating for the lack of the warning on the first day Jul 14 00:58:12 * cesarb wonders if they'll do the same to the lack of phone colour selector Jul 14 00:59:46 Wierd I got booted. Anyways, I just got a second email from RT. Jul 14 01:00:01 You got excess flooded. Jul 14 01:00:09 But yeah, got it through the second line with caps Jul 14 01:01:03 Essentially they are wanting to validate my order with a "YES_I_DO" Jul 14 01:01:19 I feel commited now. Wonder what a divorce will cost me :) Jul 14 01:02:31 Anybody else get this email yet? Jul 14 01:03:22 Hehe. Jul 14 01:03:24 Not I Jul 14 01:03:36 How mutch device got ordered? Jul 14 01:04:20 Just one device Jul 14 01:05:47 dataworm: in total - >1K Jul 14 01:05:59 Thanks SpeedEvil Jul 14 01:07:28 I am waiting for the wifi version to order mine, I know in a few month I would want to buy the new one... Jul 14 01:07:33 Jason1: Looks like they are compensating for the lack of the warning on the first day Jul 14 01:08:05 Jason1: (btw, you got booted because you pasted too fast. you have to paste one line at a time, pausing for a sec between the lines) Jul 14 01:08:30 cesarb: Yup. It is so nice to hear from them. I sent my reply, sp I expect on Monday (or therabouts) I will get my payment/shipment email Jul 14 01:08:50 cesarb: Yeah. Got a little excited there :) Jul 14 01:09:04 dataworm: if everyone were to wait for the wifi version, the wifi version wouldn't happen Jul 14 01:10:29 cesarb: YEa I guess :\, I was't saying to wait for wifi. Jul 14 01:10:30 cesarb: true, but there is no point in someone like myself (who, at most, wants to re-compile someone else's app for open moko) to buy a dev phone that could be much better used by an actual software dev Jul 14 01:10:53 i plan on buying gta03 Jul 14 01:11:17 by then there should be tons of app writen Jul 14 01:11:37 and i "might" have money Jul 14 01:11:56 I don't quite understand why wifi is't there alwready. Even if it would't have driver. Jul 14 01:11:57 MrFeetio: good plan. Jul 14 01:12:23 I would probably be happy with most of the default apps, just modified to use etk instead of gtk :) Jul 14 01:13:22 AntonTakk, !!! Jul 14 01:13:23 :-) Jul 14 01:13:25 lol Jul 14 01:13:32 GSM Data plan are too expensive over here, so It's kind of boring for me to have that kind of device without having wifi...And without the possibility to hack the wifi driver myself Jul 14 01:13:37 did you buy gta01? Jul 14 01:13:45 no Jul 14 01:13:51 going to wait for mass market Jul 14 01:13:54 cool Jul 14 01:14:01 i'm planning on buying both Jul 14 01:14:05 but i'll probably buy the dev kit when i do get it Jul 14 01:14:35 will the dev kit be available for the mass market phone? Jul 14 01:14:36 more to support the project than cause I can use it thou (granted the ruggedized case looks friken awesome) ;) Jul 14 01:14:48 I guess anwser is yes Jul 14 01:14:57 dataworm, yes Jul 14 01:16:35 counter? Jul 14 01:16:36 (last update 2007-07-10 13:43) http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter : Order https://direct.openmoko.com/ ; Shipping prob. 60% in 4 days 10:43:19 (4.447±3.0 days) (1736;246) Jul 14 01:16:40 grrrrr... go faster Jul 14 01:16:47 i thought we were done with the counter ;-) Jul 14 01:16:56 i'd probably be working on converting the apps to etk if I could just the get mokomakefile to get past the ncurses bug Jul 14 01:17:02 though, has anyone actually been charged? Jul 14 01:17:36 AntonTakk, i started looking at packaging openembedded Jul 14 01:17:49 yeah? it look doable? Jul 14 01:18:11 yeah, all of the deps are already there Jul 14 01:18:18 you wanna work on it now? Jul 14 01:18:24 or at least at some point this evening? Jul 14 01:18:31 sure Jul 14 01:18:47 i need a break from hacking plone/moin and revisor Jul 14 01:19:13 err Jul 14 01:19:19 AntonTakk, https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-docs-list/2007-July/msg00053.html Jul 14 01:19:32 i hadnt been charged, as of yesterday. Jul 14 01:19:58 aaaannnnnddddd i just found out i'll be using att with my neo Jul 14 01:20:18 i'm going to go with unlimited data... :-D Jul 14 01:20:36 most prepay plans are ~$0.01/KB Jul 14 01:20:58 OH MY GOD NEWS!!!!!!!!!!!!! Jul 14 01:21:07 galexande, ? Jul 14 01:21:13 YES_I_DO Jul 14 01:21:14 ORANGE Jul 14 01:21:36 daMaestro: i can offer cpu muscle to throw at compiling/etc also, if needed Jul 14 01:22:32 ok Jul 14 01:22:55 daMaestro: what's the cost gonna be on att? Jul 14 01:23:01 I just found out I'm being dragged out to my grandfather's house thou, mind if we talk on this later? Jul 14 01:23:10 AntonTakk, sounds like a plan Jul 14 01:23:22 cool, another brazilian Jul 14 01:23:41 galexande: did you hear something? Jul 14 01:24:00 galexande: awesome! I got that email too Jul 14 01:24:10 my YES_I_DO reply was not from the address they sent to.. Jul 14 01:24:15 summatusmentis, when i know.. i'll add it to http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Carriers Jul 14 01:24:16 I just got an e-mail with no body :( Jul 14 01:24:27 i accedently replied from an address where that was forwarded Jul 14 01:24:30 daMaestro: alright Jul 14 01:24:36 gcb77: An automated email was sent asking to confirm or retract your order Jul 14 01:24:38 I hope that wont cause a problem :/ Jul 14 01:24:50 i can almost smell my neo :) Jul 14 01:25:08 the subject was "Your OpenMoko direct order" Jul 14 01:25:12 noooooo i have not gotten that email Jul 14 01:25:12 and nothing else Jul 14 01:25:40 gcb77: It is Friday the 13th Jul 14 01:26:09 #1964 ... i was so close to 1973 Jul 14 01:26:09 Jason1: the date on the e-mail is Sat, 14 Jul 2007 Jul 14 01:26:20 so I should be ok ;) Jul 14 01:26:54 gcb77: That was close :) Jul 14 01:27:03 I just got a confirmation email checking I know it's not an end-user device Jul 14 01:27:09 think if i send another reply using the right email address, i'll end up with two orders? Jul 14 01:27:13 ruimoreir1: I hope my neo doesnt smell. Jul 14 01:27:20 lol Jul 14 01:27:21 :P Jul 14 01:27:50 * CoreDump|home siffs at his Neo...nope, doesn't smell Jul 14 01:28:00 CoreDump|home: LOL Jul 14 01:28:00 :) Jul 14 01:28:26 CoreDump|home: some guys have all the luck ;) Jul 14 01:28:41 rwhitby: you are one of the people who post to planet.openmoko.org, could you post some pictures of flowers or something like that? (to bump laforge's message down) Jul 14 01:28:41 any news on such things as GPS? Jul 14 01:29:06 What sort of news are you after? Jul 14 01:29:12 ruimoreir1: trust me, you don't want my "luck" Jul 14 01:29:19 anything, really Jul 14 01:29:24 "It's there" Jul 14 01:29:45 CoreDump|home: just kidding :P Jul 14 01:30:10 an exciting new development of openstreetmap which means it's not grossly unsuitable for use in openmoko, or google opening their maps API for use in openmoko, or some other such thing Jul 14 01:30:49 you can use the google maps api Jul 14 01:30:50 sure. Jul 14 01:31:03 not "offline"... ... but you can use it Jul 14 01:31:27 daMaestro: I thought their was a licensing restriction on GMaps Jul 14 01:31:54 really? What sort of restriction? Jul 14 01:31:59 an app that links to it in a manner that isn't hideously costly in terms of bandwidth, and that has decent support for realtime display of driving directions Jul 14 01:32:02 not when using the public API... Jul 14 01:32:20 additionally, I am not sure what happened to the search thing... it became really good, and then really crap Jul 14 01:32:24 it can't find my house any more Jul 14 01:32:40 ben_goodger: Well, you're not going to do away with the bandwidth cost as long as it's a tileserver, but driving directions ought to be doable with the google maps interface and some magic to let javascript access gps coordinates on the device (when granted permission) Jul 14 01:32:48 arachnid: Ill see if I can find it Jul 14 01:32:53 mmm Jul 14 01:33:10 I'm rather skeptical about the practicality of openstreetmap for many uses Jul 14 01:33:21 http://www.google.com/apis/maps/ Jul 14 01:33:34 arachnid: like so much in OSS, it's a lovely idea and totally useless Jul 14 01:33:39 i never heard of openstreemap Jul 14 01:33:42 My job is writing GIS software, and I'm acutely aware just how much (100% accurate) information is required to do anything beyond drawing maps Jul 14 01:34:00 Mapping is relatively easy. Geocoding is much harder, and routing is much harder than that Jul 14 01:34:26 routing is a simple matter of elementary path-finding algorithms, surely Jul 14 01:34:39 It'd be nice if I could convince my company to release an openmoko version of the software and the maps as OSS, but I don't think that'll happen ;) Jul 14 01:34:48 ben_goodger: But in terms of the information required, it's very difficult Jul 14 01:34:58 hmm, yes, I suppose so Jul 14 01:35:12 You need information about things like the presence/absense of dividers down the street center, turn prohibitions, one-way information Jul 14 01:35:41 did everyone get the YES_I_DO email? Jul 14 01:35:55 ferric, i have not... yet Jul 14 01:35:55 Data that tells you that a street is dual digitised (digitised as two seperate streets), when links are 'intersection internal' (eg, it should treat a roundabout as a single intersection even though there are several physical street segments in it), and so on Jul 14 01:35:58 you could treat both directions separately.. Jul 14 01:36:13 hmm Jul 14 01:36:21 You can, but you still have to have all the relevant information to know what routes are valid and what ones aren't Jul 14 01:36:28 daMaestro: what's your rt#? Jul 14 01:36:31 If any of it is inaccurate, you end up giving bad routes, too. :/ Jul 14 01:36:35 daMaestro: are you using gmail? Jul 14 01:36:40 mmm Jul 14 01:36:41 ferric: i just got one Jul 14 01:36:45 jrockway: sweet. Jul 14 01:37:03 ferric, i just got it.. and no, i've used my own server Jul 14 01:37:04 ferric: got mine Jul 14 01:37:04 but the largest issue is the one of copyrighted data Jul 14 01:37:19 awesome. Jul 14 01:37:25 ben_goodger: Yeah - that's more or less what I meant. All the good data is copyrighted, and you _need_ good data. Jul 14 01:37:31 i wonder if they've received way more orders than they thought they would Jul 14 01:37:39 'course, it's copyrighted because it's incredibly expensive to generate Jul 14 01:37:42 now that i've replied YES_I_DO will the phone magically appear in my house? :) Jul 14 01:37:42 jrockway: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.) Jul 14 01:37:43 if google opened a lower-level API, they'd be fine Jul 14 01:37:52 lol jr Jul 14 01:38:13 Navteq actually drive down every street in the areas they cover (all of the US and canada plus more) with trucks and people to note everything down Jul 14 01:38:29 ben_goodger: I suspect that their licensing agreements with data providers prohibit them from doing that even if they wanted to Jul 14 01:38:45 arachnid: most of the data here in the UK is generated by the government using plans, under crown copyright, and is licensed at ludicrous expense despite the fact that the people have already paid for it Jul 14 01:39:03 * madewokherd stares at ben_goodger Jul 14 01:39:17 But it should be possible to create a decent mapping program for OpenMoko on top of google maps as long as we can add support for reading from the GPS to the browser's javascropt implementation Jul 14 01:39:26 yes Jul 14 01:39:34 but it would be very, very hacky Jul 14 01:39:48 rather like screen-scraping on mythtv Jul 14 01:39:48 ben_goodger: I don't know what it's like over there, but here (NZ) and in the US, the map data provided by the government is generally poor enough that companies make money taking it, updating and fixing it, and reselling it Jul 14 01:39:49 grr i really don't like this message Jul 14 01:40:04 It's generally good enough for mapping and geocoding, and that's it Jul 14 01:40:13 daMaestro: ? Jul 14 01:40:13 ah Jul 14 01:40:33 ben_goodger: I don't think it would be particularly hacky - a standard webapp with the addition of GPS access Jul 14 01:40:51 we have an incredibly detailed postcode system which works within about five yards in built-up areas, and that data is also ludicrously expensive Jul 14 01:40:53 And yeah, it's rather frustrating that we pay for mapping out of our taxes, then they charge again if you want it. :( Jul 14 01:40:59 Yeah, I can imagine. :/ Jul 14 01:41:01 i was really hoping it would at least be able to stably make and take phone calls Jul 14 01:41:15 my postcode identifies my house, and one other house Jul 14 01:41:50 Impressive. :) Jul 14 01:41:53 there are public APIs for that data Jul 14 01:42:07 daMaestro: Of course thereare no guarantees, but i would expect that the software might mature rather quickly once the devices are "freed" from FIC Jul 14 01:42:09 10 digit zips *are* physical addresses Jul 14 01:42:21 I'd love to write a dedicated mapping application for OpenMoko, but I'm afraid that would be seen as a conflict of interest with my current employer Jul 14 01:42:22 Except mine. Jul 14 01:42:26 daMaestro: yes indeed. they're available under crown copyright for thousands of pounds from the royal mail Jul 14 01:42:38 I think I can get away with writing a google-maps based one, though. :) Jul 14 01:42:42 arachnid I'm planning on a maemo mapper port if noone else does Jul 14 01:43:14 arachnid: does openmoko compete i your employer's market? Jul 14 01:43:16 *in Jul 14 01:44:00 ben_goodger: Not directly, but if I wrote one for openmoko, it would essentially be a clone of one of my employer's products Jul 14 01:44:23 ah, lovely Jul 14 01:44:37 And since that product is what I work on, it'd almost certainly (accidentally) contain information I gleaned from writing it Jul 14 01:44:59 mmm Jul 14 01:45:00 Oh well. I'm leaving there soon, with any luck, so maybe in 6 months I can write one. ;) Jul 14 01:45:00 maybe not if it was a strict port ;-) Jul 14 01:45:18 the trouble with google maps is that it's a blob Jul 14 01:45:20 spikebike: Then you'd have to buy it off them. And install Mono on your moko ;) Jul 14 01:45:34 heh, I meant of maemo mapper Jul 14 01:45:39 (which is free) Jul 14 01:45:43 Oh, right. :) Jul 14 01:45:56 all you can do is coddle it, you can't actually apply bug-fixes Jul 14 01:46:09 Where does maemo get data from? Jul 14 01:46:14 maemo mapper, rather Jul 14 01:46:19 one of 5-6 repositories Jul 14 01:46:24 some of which are even legal ;-) Jul 14 01:46:25 I wonder if we should post openstreetmap on /. Jul 14 01:46:40 I think it was there when they got donated all that data Jul 14 01:46:45 openstreets is the legal one Jul 14 01:46:56 damn Jul 14 01:47:07 (Actually, with donated data like that, it could actually be practical - now we just have to convince navteq to donate theirs ;) Jul 14 01:47:16 Only problem is, navteq's data is damn near bugfree already Jul 14 01:47:17 perhaps sponsored town mapping projects Jul 14 01:47:46 The other annoying thing about GIS is that the standard for storing data (Shapefiles) is too damn bulky and slow to use in a real application Jul 14 01:47:56 So everyone converts it to their own proprietary database format Jul 14 01:48:00 someone sponsors you a certain amount per street, and the profits go to the openstreetmap project or some cancer thingummy Jul 14 01:48:13 ben_goodger: Neat idea Jul 14 01:48:24 You'd need to teach people a fair bit about what they need to record, though Jul 14 01:48:31 well, yes Jul 14 01:48:34 Though I don't imagine that's much of an obstacle Jul 14 01:48:59 google maps, google sat, and 2-3 views from terra server Jul 14 01:49:08 maybe one from nasa whirlwind Jul 14 01:49:56 in any case I'm quite fond of collecting tracks with a gps + 770 Jul 14 01:50:02 my trouble is that I have a lovely bike and a town suitable for mapping in one day (pop. 2.5k) and a tomtom thing Jul 14 01:50:08 or loading tracks before a drive somewhere Jul 14 01:53:13 omg, i could make it play certain songs at certain points in the ride, so every time i'm going up The Big HIll, i could be totally trained into a zen-like state of infinite familiarity :) Jul 14 01:54:27 the mp3 player could be variable speed based on my velocity!! Jul 14 01:54:50 hmm Jul 14 01:54:56 hey Jul 14 01:55:06 after you reply YES_I_DO, is it supposed to respond? Jul 14 01:55:07 what's your country's national speed limit? Jul 14 01:55:14 I got a permision denied response Jul 14 01:55:26 but i sent from another email Jul 14 01:55:33 so i sent from two emails Jul 14 01:55:49 orzo, i hope not Jul 14 01:56:06 orzo: I did NOT get a response to my YES_I_DO Jul 14 01:56:27 orzo: You may now kiss the bride Jul 14 01:56:55 the subject was "Message not recorded" and the body was "YES_I_DO" Jul 14 01:57:03 no Jul 14 01:57:19 the body was "Permision Denied\n\nYES_I_DO" Jul 14 01:57:40 orzo: The email said that oyu must reply from from the same email that you used to order Jul 14 01:57:48 oh Jul 14 01:57:55 orzo: sounds like a broken shell script Jul 14 01:58:07 "Please note that it is important to leave the subject of the mail intact, and that your response comes from the original email that you used to make this order." Jul 14 01:58:16 was the YES_I_DO supposed to be in the subject or the body? Jul 14 01:58:18 well I didn't mean to reply from another email, it was an accident Jul 14 01:58:30 aka "we didn't implement much error handling, so do exactly as we say" Jul 14 01:58:31 gcb77: The body. First line Jul 14 01:58:47 Jason1: thank you... I'll try to reply again Jul 14 01:58:52 actually, first line? I thought it said an "otherwise empty line" and that was the only restriction Jul 14 01:59:14 orzo: Hmmm. You are right. Jul 14 01:59:34 " beginning of an otherwise empty line of your response to this email." Jul 14 01:59:47 well gota go Jul 14 02:01:04 I think that email was a test. Can you imagine an end user (your grandmither) trying to figure out how to reply with all caps, and underscores, on a blank line ,etc Jul 14 02:01:53 Jason1: never attribute to malice what can be explained by being lazy and not doing any error checking in the script used to parse the email Jul 14 02:02:11 :) true Jul 14 02:02:47 cesarb: Does FIC normally sell direct to the public? Jul 14 02:03:33 Jason1: dunno Jul 14 02:03:38 Jason1: I'd guess not Jul 14 02:04:20 * cesarb wonders if they should have used a CAPTCHA Jul 14 02:04:39 CAPTCHA? Whats that? Jul 14 02:04:54 One of those images with text in them that you have to type Jul 14 02:05:03 Jason1: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CAPTCHA Jul 14 02:05:12 arachnid: captcha is not always an image... Jul 14 02:05:14 Completely Automated Procedure for Telling Computers and Humans Apart Jul 14 02:05:16 ohhhh. The verify that you are a human things :) Jul 14 02:05:16 (IIRC) Jul 14 02:05:30 Turing test. Jul 14 02:05:35 In this case, they could ask something like "write a small program to calculate the factorial of a number" Jul 14 02:05:37 cesarb: Sure, but I was referring to common experience - something people are likley to recognise Jul 14 02:05:41 Heh. Jul 14 02:05:45 So muggles would not pass Jul 14 02:05:46 In what language? :P Jul 14 02:06:20 YES_I_DO! Jul 14 02:06:27 ;-) Jul 14 02:06:34 myk_: Congrats Jul 14 02:06:41 what in god's name is this? Jul 14 02:06:42 * cesarb wonders if he is witnessing the birth of the first openmoko-specific meme Jul 14 02:06:50 heh Jul 14 02:07:01 hey ben_goodger Jul 14 02:07:42 myk_: I am sorry your response is not valid. It contains invlid characters :) Jul 14 02:07:51 Jason1: ! Jul 14 02:08:08 Jason1: which ones? Jul 14 02:08:10 myk_: Yup :). Jul 14 02:08:41 myk_: Just kidding. Apparently the error checking on the automated email script leaves a little bit to be desired. Jul 14 02:08:43 aha! Jul 14 02:09:03 tsokay, i didn't exclaim it in the email itself Jul 14 02:09:26 myk_: I thought about it. I was so excited to hear from them :) Jul 14 02:09:46 myk_: I even got booted from the IRC for flooding Jul 14 02:10:03 hehe Jul 14 02:10:20 ben_goodger: this is a channel about a new open-source mobile phone Jul 14 02:11:39 yes, obviousl Jul 14 02:11:44 * SpeedEvil adds the words 'operating system' to myk's message. Jul 14 02:11:48 I was referring to YES_I_DO Jul 14 02:12:19 is it along the lines of "do you believe in fairies?", or something useful that's evaded me? Jul 14 02:12:43 ben_goodger: That is exactly what myk was saying :) Jul 14 02:12:52 ben_goodger: when the shop opened, it wasn't made explicit it would not be usable to non-developers Jul 14 02:12:58 I bought my phone, and confirmed with the scaredy cats that I knew what I was getting into Jul 14 02:13:01 ben_goodger: We got an email asking us to confirm our orders Jul 14 02:13:12 ben_goodger: so, they are asking people to confirm they know it's not a usable phone unless you know a lot of tech Jul 14 02:13:20 oh, I see. Jul 14 02:13:26 ben_goodger: and that's the exact response you have to send... Jul 14 02:13:33 just give me a dialer that in some way talks gsm and I'll figure it out from there :) Jul 14 02:13:54 YES_I_DO Jul 14 02:14:13 sagacis: awesome Jul 14 02:14:28 It's almost a buyer's remorse chicken exit Jul 14 02:14:38 it is, but it's nice of them Jul 14 02:14:39 hehe Jul 14 02:14:41 Do we need a new wiki page of the people who replied? Jul 14 02:14:45 just double checking they don't screw someone over Jul 14 02:15:04 What happens if I didn't check my e-mail for a while? Jul 14 02:15:11 sagacis: it would be as useful as the "P1 future owners" one Jul 14 02:15:18 sagacis: i.e. not much... Jul 14 02:15:22 If I put my name on one more wiki page list.... Jul 14 02:15:37 * cesarb has not put his name on any of these wiki pages Jul 14 02:15:48 * cesarb has put his name only in the page history of the mokomakefile page Jul 14 02:16:03 cesarb: come on cesar. all the cool kids are doing it Jul 14 02:16:07 hey mokomakefile is awesome Jul 14 02:16:13 it was so easy to get the emu up on an ubuntu machine Jul 14 02:16:23 one make command later, I've got a qemu window up :) Jul 14 02:16:26 jadams: agreed Jul 14 02:16:36 jadams: even more since I've fixed it not to have to do the silly /bin/sh dance ;-) Jul 14 02:16:39 I'm installing ubuntu right now on my beefier machine Jul 14 02:16:47 Live install is cool. I can keep chatting Jul 14 02:16:51 jadams: although I hit a few bumps in the road. To be expected though Jul 14 02:17:54 Back in a bit. Ubuntu install complete Jul 14 02:17:58 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[SH1_FAQ]] [[Application_UI_Design_Recommendations]] [[Main_Page]] [[OpenMoko_Local_Groups:_Switzerland]] [[User:C7]] [[OpenMoko_Local_Groups:_North_Texas]] [[OpenMoko_Local_Groups]] Jul 14 02:24:51 So... what's Harold upset about? Jul 14 02:24:58 erm Harald Jul 14 02:25:58 emacsen: AFAIK, nobody knows Jul 14 02:27:20 well... makes it hard to want to send the confirmation mail :) Jul 14 02:27:40 emacsen: probably not exactly upset... probably just worked too much Jul 14 02:27:55 see, I'd heard there's upset about access to the source Jul 14 02:28:10 Really?! Jul 14 02:28:18 like, the shipping unit doesn't have the libs you'll need to talk to the GSM daemon from the gui Jul 14 02:28:28 emacsen: Where did you get that idea? Jul 14 02:28:35 rumors :) Jul 14 02:28:51 hence coming here looking for confirmation Jul 14 02:29:05 Stuff is seriously NOT DONE Jul 14 02:29:11 But not through lack of openness. Jul 14 02:36:56 yay. sign of life. Jul 14 02:37:08 juri_: ? Jul 14 02:37:27 new email sent out. Jul 14 02:37:45 juri_: YES_YOU_DO? Jul 14 02:37:54 YES_I_DO. ;) Jul 14 02:38:00 hehe Jul 14 02:40:48 personally, i'm going to use my openmoko as a GPS for my nokia 770, along with its use as a portable ogg player. also going to port my nokia's apps over to it. at least the ones i use. :) Jul 14 02:42:56 juri_: Very cool. I have been looking forward to toying with OpenStreetMap with my device. Jul 14 02:43:10 "Are there enough phones for the number of orders? Will FIC produce another GTA01 batch if needed?" Jul 14 02:43:15 "Of course. Please note that there is a lead time of four to six weeks." Jul 14 02:43:39 from http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/SH1_FAQ by HaraldWelte Jul 14 02:43:55 (question that many might be thinking here) Jul 14 02:44:00 juri_: You like your 770? In theory, you should be able to use the Neos modem for you 770 Jul 14 02:44:37 "My order number is XXXX will I get a phone from the first batch?" "Unfortunately you cannot deduct this information from your order number, sorry." Jul 14 02:44:43 the aloril bot is asking and answering its own questions now? Jul 14 02:44:50 yeah, true, we can always speculate ;-) Jul 14 02:45:28 Jason1: hehe, no, just pasting some stuff that has been asked here and people might want to know, but yeah, better go read that FAQ for rest Jul 14 02:45:29 jason1: i like it, but the commercialware has got to go. Jul 14 02:46:08 juri_: I have ben eye the n800, but I can only handle one new toy at a time :) Jul 14 02:46:46 hey guys, I saw two different dates for the final version of the phone being released. one said october, one was september.. anyone know which is more accurate? Jul 14 02:47:07 wizdumb: most liekly, neither :) Jul 14 02:47:29 hah nice, any idea of when it MIGHT be released? Jul 14 02:47:31 wizdumb: we were supposed to have the development version months ago Jul 14 02:47:54 did the gps issue get resolved? Jul 14 02:47:55 wizdumb: You have apparently read everything that I have... Sep/October timeframe Jul 14 02:48:09 so it could be until next year then realistically Jul 14 02:48:46 wizdumb: Some people on the community list have raised doubts as to whether or not hte software will be ready in time Jul 14 02:48:49 here is verification that flashing u-boot should be safer now: http://wiki.openmoko.org/index.php?title=Neo1973_Phase_1&diff=11450&oldid=8342 Jul 14 02:48:59 Is there a way to update the apps on the phone, like a central repository? Jul 14 02:51:55 there are some stuff just short command away, but .. I suspect you need to prepare a bit more dirty install approaches initially, anybody know better? Jul 14 02:52:48 wizdumb: latest date in announcement is October, so that is earliest time Jul 14 02:53:04 * aloril would not be surprised about December for example Jul 14 02:53:51 ahh, thanks aloril Jul 14 02:54:03 Anybosy have the link to the wiki pagethat was taking guesses at shipment dates? Jul 14 02:55:07 oh, interesting: http://wiki.openmoko.org/index.php?title=SH1_FAQ&diff=11728&oldid=11679 (who is Bradpitcher?) Jul 14 02:57:33 alohil: you got your email right? Jul 14 02:58:17 yes, quite recently Jul 14 02:58:23 Found it. Fun projection of produt delviery: Jul 14 02:58:24 http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter#Ordering_time_probability_guesses **** ENDING LOGGING AT Sat Jul 14 02:59:56 2007