**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Sun Jul 15 02:59:57 2007 Jul 15 04:18:11 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[OpenMoko_Local_Groups:_Detroit]] Jul 15 04:27:08 moo. Jul 15 04:28:43 meow Jul 15 04:32:02 what's new on the neo side of things? Jul 15 04:32:12 Litle. Jul 15 04:32:16 Since when? Jul 15 04:33:00 last night, I guess. :) Jul 15 04:33:30 I got the YES_I_DO email. is this because there's not enough phones to go around for the first batch any info on that? Jul 15 04:34:33 no Jul 15 04:34:56 ah Jul 15 04:34:59 * ferric shrugs. Jul 15 04:34:59 it's because they wanted to warn people about it's software status Jul 15 04:35:05 i.e. not ready for end-users Jul 15 04:35:05 no more like they want to sure you know what you are getting into Jul 15 04:35:05 It's as there were not enouvh cautions on the page saying 'this isn't a working phone'. Jul 15 04:35:36 yup Jul 15 04:35:56 yeah, I think all that iPhone killer BS from slashdot etc. drove too many idiots to the phone. Jul 15 04:36:03 lol Jul 15 04:36:40 there's absolutely nothing wrong with hype, although it is pretty premature Jul 15 04:37:54 what's wrong with hype is the fact that now the FIC team is busy dealing with telling 75% of people that plonked down $300 that the phone isn't ready Jul 15 04:38:09 as oppposed to shipping phones to people who knew what they were getting. Jul 15 04:38:18 It's an automated email. Jul 15 04:38:28 The phones ar enot ready for shipping anyway. Jul 15 04:38:33 There is no extra delay. Jul 15 04:38:44 SpeedEvil: i was just talking about the overload due to wayyy too many orders. Jul 15 04:38:53 SpeedEvil: what extra delay? Jul 15 04:40:05 you can't control the slashbots, diggiots, redidiots Jul 15 04:40:17 you release a piece of news you run the risk of running into those crowds Jul 15 04:40:33 no, but you can control sean going to major press peeps and touting the iPhone iller. :) Jul 15 04:41:22 well if you mean the attention will mess up your chances of getting onein time Jul 15 04:41:23 sure Jul 15 04:41:44 but we can always say, goddamn any attention paid to a trully open platform is a good thing Jul 15 04:42:55 i think when i get the one being released in sept or whatever Jul 15 04:43:14 the first thing i'm doing is cracking open the case and remounting the innards in a clamshell dealie with a keyboard Jul 15 04:44:13 hmm. Jul 15 04:45:11 holycow: do you have a clamshell case in mind? Jul 15 04:46:20 ChooseOpen, i did find some places that do custom things like that on the wiki, i was thinking of mounting it sideways so that you can thumbtype Jul 15 04:46:38 A custom case is half the battle. Jul 15 04:46:51 The rest of the problem is the keyboard. Jul 15 04:46:55 yeah Jul 15 04:47:03 holycow: Sounds interesting. Yeah the stuff in the Wiki about custom case manufacturing is very interesting Jul 15 04:47:05 SpeedEvil: how so? Jul 15 04:47:09 there is another option to sorta fake it without having too much custom stuff to build Jul 15 04:47:25 sec lemme find the smartphoen i was looking at the other day Jul 15 04:47:28 can always use cardboard Jul 15 04:47:30 summatusmentis: keyboards aren't quite trivial. Jul 15 04:47:40 ljp, actually indeed you can. Jul 15 04:47:42 even wood Jul 15 04:47:45 ah, I see Jul 15 04:47:50 summatusmentis: and the rubber bits are not quite as easy to make. Jul 15 04:48:06 SpeedEvil: oh, yeah, I guess that makes sense Jul 15 04:48:06 You would need to find someone selling a embedded keyboard as a component. Jul 15 04:48:08 I'm planning on adding buttons inside the case - using capacitive touch sensors Jul 15 04:48:52 * summatusmentis should learn not to try to think at 0046 DT Jul 15 04:49:03 SpeedEvil: insdie the case? Jul 15 04:49:16 s/insdie/inside/ Jul 15 04:49:16 summatusmentis meant: SpeedEvil: inside the case? Jul 15 04:49:17 okay i know i COULD build this even from wood if i had a kb Jul 15 04:49:21 http://www.amazon.co.uk/i-mate-K-JAM-Pocket-Mobile-Phone/dp/B000B838H8/ref=pd_sxp_grid_pt_0_1/026-4497544-1829248 Jul 15 04:49:29 in that type of design you don't need to take the moko apart Jul 15 04:49:29 s/DT/EDT/ Jul 15 04:49:41 you just create a 'housing' for the moko and its housing Jul 15 04:49:53 and the housing wraps around the moko, the kb is just underneath it Jul 15 04:50:02 holycow: I have that phone. At T-mobile its called the "T-Mobile MDA" Jul 15 04:50:05 it would double the depth of the thing but i wouldn't care Jul 15 04:50:21 oh and the neat thing would be you could swap kb's Jul 15 04:50:27 like you could have a qwerty Jul 15 04:50:32 and then you could have a bamer pad Jul 15 04:50:33 lol Jul 15 04:50:38 ChooseOpen, googling Jul 15 04:50:42 Asus eee http://www.brighthand.com/default.asp?newsid=13177 Jul 15 04:51:02 ChooseOpen, aha! nice :) Jul 15 04:51:08 yeah thats exactly wha ti was thinking Jul 15 04:51:19 and since moko is using x, getting x to swap layout should be simple no? Jul 15 04:52:04 ChooseOpen, oh you know what? Jul 15 04:52:05 ha! Jul 15 04:52:07 holycow: I wanna see how the Neo comapares in size to this device. It is already very thick as it is Jul 15 04:52:10 i'll buy one of those on ebay Jul 15 04:52:15 and put the guts of moko into it! Jul 15 04:52:37 *oood* Jul 15 04:52:39 *ding* Jul 15 04:52:44 holycow: What? Jul 15 04:52:45 i think we have just solved that issue Jul 15 04:52:57 ChooseOpen, yeah i will by one like yours off of ebay for cheap Jul 15 04:53:05 and put the guts of the moko into that Jul 15 04:53:08 holycow: good idea. Jul 15 04:54:06 holycow: I just dont know how the dimensions compare. Is the Neo screen bigger that the MDA? Jul 15 04:54:26 not exactly sure Jul 15 04:54:34 we'll cross that bridge when we get there Jul 15 04:55:08 holycow: :) Im sure you can cram it in there one way or another. No one said it had to look pretty :) Jul 15 04:55:29 totally Jul 15 04:55:35 dremmel solves all problems Jul 15 04:55:36 lol Jul 15 04:55:54 holycow: You are going to be one of those guys with a bunch of Neo parts duck-taped together :) Jul 15 04:56:01 rofl :) Jul 15 04:56:12 frankly i like my gadgets look used Jul 15 04:56:15 i hate posers Jul 15 04:56:16 :) Jul 15 04:56:19 LOL Jul 15 04:56:32 *ding* Jul 15 04:56:39 and i just figured out the iphone allure Jul 15 04:56:41 posers Jul 15 04:56:51 oh thats a perfect way to position moko or open source platforms Jul 15 04:57:00 the anti poser slant Jul 15 04:57:01 sweet Jul 15 04:57:43 hehe Jul 15 04:58:28 its going to be hard for me to move to an openmoko from my N95, todays a good example I took half a dozen pictures Jul 15 04:58:56 i bought my motorola 620 because of the camera and quad band Jul 15 04:59:03 i never take photos anymore Jul 15 04:59:11 Linux_Galore: Carry a real camera if you want to take pictures... Jul 15 04:59:13 the iPhone wont cut it for me either the DC is a lower quality unit with no focus or flash Jul 15 05:00:07 ChooseOpen: I have a Nikon D80 but thats serious kit and is far from pocketable Jul 15 05:00:21 Linux_Galore: LOL, details.... Jul 15 05:00:39 rofl @ details comment Jul 15 05:01:55 for me interactivity with the unit is important + open platform Jul 15 05:02:15 I cant wait till the yuppie clubbers who purchased a iPhone find out they cant take any pictures at parties because there is no flash Jul 15 05:02:26 to find* Jul 15 05:02:32 Linux_Galore: All is not lost, the next gen devices from FIC *may* include a camera... Jul 15 05:02:53 i need a kb and other types of interfaces but those that exist now are on closed platforms on which you can't do anything Jul 15 05:03:28 having python around on it at minimum will superb. i don't know if any sort of shell will be accessible, i imagine yes Jul 15 05:03:34 holycow: my N95 works with just about everything so far, I have a BT fold up keyboard Jul 15 05:03:42 if so having ssh to log into networks will be great for when i'm on the road Jul 15 05:03:54 holycow: and I have putty Jul 15 05:03:55 Linux_Galore, *nod* i'm googling it now Jul 15 05:04:09 well the fact you are running putty means its running windows mobile Jul 15 05:04:15 which is offensive just to think about Jul 15 05:04:29 holycow: no simbian has a putty client Jul 15 05:04:37 ah it does? Jul 15 05:04:57 aha i see the nokia n95 Jul 15 05:05:01 yep, someone posted the sourceforge link to me in here about 3 weeks ago Jul 15 05:05:05 what kind of kb do you have for it? Jul 15 05:05:15 holycow: Put your Neo in this: Jul 15 05:05:15 http://www.drs-ts.com/scorpion-htu-ek.htm Jul 15 05:05:16 holycow: I have the Nokia unit Jul 15 05:05:26 see with the nokia usb port i can even put a usb to ethernet adapter and diagnose network issues Jul 15 05:05:40 "most cost-efficient solution for the battlefield" Jul 15 05:05:43 chose haha! Jul 15 05:06:41 Linux_Galore, url? i'm not googling anything on it Jul 15 05:06:46 on kb i mean Jul 15 05:07:26 holycow: http://770.fs-security.com/maemo-bt-plugin/770keyboard-small-white.jpg Jul 15 05:07:36 holycow: There are a bunch of them...."Portable Bluetooth Keyboard" Jul 15 05:07:40 su-8w keyboard Jul 15 05:07:43 aha like that Jul 15 05:07:46 gotcha Jul 15 05:08:04 holycow: no drivers needed they are loaded by defaut Jul 15 05:08:17 i had one like that for my old ipaq i never used Jul 15 05:08:46 http://www.mobiletechreview.com/tips/freedom-bluetooth-keyboard.htm Jul 15 05:09:04 speaking of mobile units i just ordered this: Jul 15 05:09:06 http://www.geekstuff4u.com/product_info.php?manufacturers_id=&products_id=521 Jul 15 05:10:00 wow. 1.28 pounds! Jul 15 05:10:25 that thing is HOT! Jul 15 05:10:40 holycow: Im waiting for the Toshiba R500 to come out Jul 15 05:10:47 holycow, cool shit! Jul 15 05:10:55 "LINUX/PACK OS" ..? Jul 15 05:11:06 yeah the cpu is only 800 mhz but next year intel will have true 45 nanometer cpus for the umpc market at much better performance/heat dissipation ratio Jul 15 05:11:09 codyl, yup Jul 15 05:11:14 no FUCKING microsoft anymore Jul 15 05:11:25 holycow, what comes on it? suse? ubuntu ? Jul 15 05:11:29 Linux_Galore, googling, never heard of that Jul 15 05:11:39 codyl, nothing it comes with a mandriva pack but its all intel chipset Jul 15 05:11:42 http://www.mobilewhack.com/toshiba-r500-portaga---worlds-thinnest-notebook-series/ Jul 15 05:11:44 any distro will install by default Jul 15 05:12:00 i don't know what issues i will have with the touchscreen however Jul 15 05:12:10 and i expect the thumbscanner not to work but i'm not going to use it Jul 15 05:12:16 everything else will work by default for sure Jul 15 05:12:29 holycow: there are companies who make dedicated Linux UMPC touch screen systems Jul 15 05:12:44 Linux_Galore, oh thats a neato laptop Jul 15 05:12:45 holycow, wacom drivers are good on linux Jul 15 05:12:54 holycow: one is based in the USA too, someone did a demo of one at our LUG about 3 years ago Jul 15 05:12:57 i actually wanted to buy this laptop but i got tired of carying laptops around: Jul 15 05:13:14 * SpeedEvil has a 1.1Kg lappy. Works for me. Jul 15 05:13:16 http://www.mobilewhack.com/toshiba-r500-portaga---worlds-thinnest-notebook-series/ Jul 15 05:13:19 6 hour life. Jul 15 05:13:21 look at the bettery life Jul 15 05:13:24 14 hours Jul 15 05:13:28 Not bad. Jul 15 05:13:43 oh sorry wrong link Jul 15 05:13:43 sec Jul 15 05:13:46 SpeedEvil: also has a built in optical drive Jul 15 05:13:48 http://www.dynamism.com/t5/main.shtml Jul 15 05:14:14 most of the small portable stuff around 1kg Ive been seeing has no optical drive Jul 15 05:14:29 panasonic t5 ... my boss has a w5 with cdrom but its still too big so i decided on the fujitsu Jul 15 05:14:47 thats why I like the r500, its around 1kg and has a optical drive Jul 15 05:14:54 Linux_Galore, well i use linux exclusively, there is no need for a cdrom anymore, its a dead technology imho Jul 15 05:15:16 i don't really remember the last time i used a cdrom unit except to watch a dvd Jul 15 05:15:18 holycow: I always carry a bootable cd for when things break Jul 15 05:15:37 i use usb memory sticks for that, but i know what you mean Jul 15 05:15:41 Linux_Galore: linux doesnt break :) Jul 15 05:15:45 holycow: watch a dvd movie while on the move Jul 15 05:16:01 ChooseOpen: Ive had linux break on me a few times now Jul 15 05:16:02 well that the thing, i don't care about dvds on cdrom media Jul 15 05:16:07 i can find any movie i want online for free Jul 15 05:16:24 Linux_Galore: Must be a problem between the seat and the keyboard... j/k Jul 15 05:16:26 but even that is too boring ... Jul 15 05:16:28 holycow, all hail the mighty powerful tubes Jul 15 05:16:30 holycow: its a dvd rom in the r500 Jul 15 05:16:46 codyl, yup Jul 15 05:16:53 ChooseOpen: no ext3 file corruptions Jul 15 05:17:01 heh Jul 15 05:17:06 funny you mention ext3 Jul 15 05:17:11 i've read for years its a great fs Jul 15 05:17:17 i've beein using reiser forever Jul 15 05:17:22 holycow: it is untill things break Jul 15 05:17:28 so hans gets nabbed and i switched to ext3 Jul 15 05:17:36 i swear its a total piece of crap Jul 15 05:17:48 holycow: I prefere xfs personally, I havent had on machine corrupt yet Jul 15 05:17:54 completely unreliable ... obviously i go through a lot of power shutdowns :) Jul 15 05:18:40 yeah i just didn't realise how good reiser is, i've put machines through most horrendeous power shutdowns, you know hit a power switch and go home and not a single problem in at least 5 years Jul 15 05:18:42 one* Jul 15 05:18:50 today i had a powersurge here and this box needed an fsck Jul 15 05:19:16 but now i need to find another fs, xfs looks good, so does jfs Jul 15 05:19:26 holycow: all my servers run xfs, had a few go down during brown outs without any issues Jul 15 05:19:33 there is a new fs by oracle that is starting to mature, btrfs or something Jul 15 05:19:46 Linux_Galore, *nod* i'll research that some more Jul 15 05:20:01 ext3 needs to simply die :) Jul 15 05:20:02 holycow: xfs is very mature Jul 15 05:20:20 holycow: ext4 is on the horizon Jul 15 05:21:08 yeah, i'm not holding my breath tho Jul 15 05:21:14 SGi created xfs and the fs has been used on big iron systems for over 14 years Jul 15 05:21:54 thing about big iron is it doesn't live in a power unstable environment Jul 15 05:21:59 holycow: zfs is the one to keep an eye on, its very hard to corrupt the data Jul 15 05:22:03 big iron has lots and lots of power backups Jul 15 05:22:20 copy-on-write ;-) Jul 15 05:22:39 i gotta find a fs that can work under unstable power conditions Jul 15 05:23:02 Linux_Galore, heh it will be interesting to see what happens if it is licenced under gpl3 Jul 15 05:23:04 I like how with zfs you can just add a drive and its added to the system on the fly Jul 15 05:23:10 that could screw up linus a bit :) Jul 15 05:23:20 scalable drive poling Jul 15 05:23:24 pooling* Jul 15 05:23:31 yeah thats neat, kind of like ram Jul 15 05:23:37 no one partitions ram :) Jul 15 05:23:40 Linux_Galore: what's the status of ZFS on Linux? last i heard it's been controversial Jul 15 05:23:52 scalable pooling will be great on raid setups Jul 15 05:24:01 myk_: you can use it only in user space (fuse) Jul 15 05:24:02 I hear there's a somewhat working FUSE implementation Jul 15 05:24:12 its working but isnt mature Jul 15 05:24:22 yeah i read that too Ycros Jul 15 05:24:50 zfs will never be fully ported to Linux because its not like a normal file system, its a complete drive software stack from top to bottom Jul 15 05:24:54 its done over fuse because of licencing issues Jul 15 05:25:01 or so i thought Jul 15 05:25:13 Linux_Galore, ah really? Jul 15 05:25:28 holycow: yeah, the way Linux works and solaris are very different Jul 15 05:26:02 i remember the reiser discussions, lkml people don't like to think of the fs as a simple layer Jul 15 05:26:10 holycow: imagine a single bit of software that replaces everything the kernel needs to manage a hardisk Jul 15 05:26:17 they really hated reisers ability to extend via plugins Jul 15 05:26:41 Linux_Galore, *nod* gotcha Jul 15 05:26:47 thats very interesting indeed Jul 15 05:27:12 holycow: all the scsi ide stuff not needed Jul 15 05:27:35 lol Jul 15 05:27:40 holycow, you actually switched filesystems because Reiser got accused? Jul 15 05:27:44 replacing that would be a bonus i think :) Jul 15 05:28:00 quinton, yep, if hans aint working on it, no one is working on it Jul 15 05:28:03 wait, so zfs doesn't run on top of a generic block-device abstraction?? Jul 15 05:28:07 holycow: to be honest that would be a good thing, Linux ide, scsi managment is piss poor Jul 15 05:28:22 reiser is a very peculiar project, its the result of one very unique genious Jul 15 05:28:34 zfs is awesome Jul 15 05:28:41 oh, i didn't realize he was so important to it Jul 15 05:28:47 holycow, reiserfs is awesome in some ways Jul 15 05:28:57 quinton: yeah Hans is reiserfs Jul 15 05:29:18 reiserfs 4 though is a dog, its too cpu intensive Jul 15 05:29:20 Ycros, i think reiser really had a huge potential, but the thing about hans is kind of like the thing about linux Jul 15 05:29:27 both are geniouses in their own right Jul 15 05:29:38 and both are extremely smart probably smarter than most people Jul 15 05:29:45 heh Jul 15 05:29:57 but what happens in hanses case from someones descritptions ... is that because he is smarter than most people Jul 15 05:30:04 most people cannot really understand what he is saying Jul 15 05:30:12 Linux_Galore: might linux be modified to accommodate zfs's different model? Jul 15 05:30:15 that could be true Jul 15 05:30:40 is zfs living out in user space such a bad thing? Jul 15 05:30:42 holycow: Hans did a really good article about file systems and how they work, its a must read for compsc people Jul 15 05:30:43 so he ended up as a result having free reign to have opinions on things where he really didn't have any expertice in and kinda floated into the 'jerk zone' where its just hard to communicate with him Jul 15 05:30:58 so hans really created an amazing product but alienated pretty much everyone Jul 15 05:31:04 thus if hans is gone, so is reiser Jul 15 05:31:10 its based on ideas and insights only he had Jul 15 05:31:48 myk_: its very complex and also the way Linus and his crew view how Linux should work (flat system space not stacked like zfs) I doubt we will see it properly ported Jul 15 05:31:52 Linux_Galore, i really wish none of the horrible nina reiser happend for altruistic and self serving reasons Jul 15 05:31:56 he's might come back Jul 15 05:31:59 he's not gone gone Jul 15 05:32:16 true innocent until proven guilty Jul 15 05:32:18 wow, this channel was dead for about 2-3 hours Jul 15 05:32:22 nice to see there are actually people again Jul 15 05:32:32 yeah, I came home lol Jul 15 05:32:33 but he's in jail anyway Jul 15 05:32:46 nevermind the other guy involved confessed to murdering a few people Jul 15 05:32:59 Hans could still work on the project from jail Jul 15 05:33:02 Linux_Galore, right *nod* i think i understand the architectural problems Jul 15 05:33:07 i thought it was mostly a licencing issue Jul 15 05:33:12 Linux_Galore, lol! Jul 15 05:33:15 Linux_Galore: Not in California jails Jul 15 05:33:18 if only they woul dlet him ... Jul 15 05:33:18 lol Jul 15 05:33:32 Reiserfs 4, Jail house edition Jul 15 05:33:49 that wired article about him recently was really interesting Jul 15 05:33:52 sparq, no... only if you are paris Jul 15 05:34:06 daMaestro, lol Jul 15 05:34:16 Heh. Jul 15 05:34:29 for anyone who hasn't read it: http://www.wired.com/techbiz/people/magazine/15-07/ff_hansreiser Jul 15 05:34:44 daMaestro: Actually, I would be happy if LA had let her buy her way out of jail. The city could use the money. Jul 15 05:34:47 it's true.. they'd lock away Einstein; but not a pop-sexy blonde with money Jul 15 05:35:04 sparq, yeah.. sadly she will make a lot of 0's from this Jul 15 05:35:07 that is more what makes me sick Jul 15 05:35:23 already did Jul 15 05:35:30 that larry king interview was millions from what i read Jul 15 05:36:16 holycow: You know how Lee Baca balanced the budget for LA County Corrections, right? Jul 15 05:36:27 there is a really interesting book out, The blonding of society , or something, talks about how science etc is more aimed at the bonde idiot culture and basic research is suffering Jul 15 05:36:33 is this the story about raising youth to adult court? Jul 15 05:36:39 holycow: After Bush took away all the federal support Jul 15 05:36:54 probably not, how was it done? Jul 15 05:36:58 holycow: Nope. He just started letting people go. Jul 15 05:37:11 well the u.s. has a big problem Jul 15 05:37:23 and its a cultural problem, you guys will throw anyone into jail Jul 15 05:37:26 He took a random selection of inmates, and just let the walk away because there weren't enough beds. Jul 15 05:37:31 per capita only china has you guys beat Jul 15 05:38:02 holycow: Indeed. Actually, I think per capita, we have more prisoners than China. They have more executions. Jul 15 05:38:04 i would say that yeah you guys won't have a choice soon *nod* Jul 15 05:38:04 government research agencies have trippled their middle management in 10 years with basic research halving, go figure Jul 15 05:38:23 Neo on Ebay already: Jul 15 05:38:23 http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=170129612124&ru=http://search.ebay.com:80/170129612124_W0QQ_trksidZm37QQfromZR40QQfviZ1 Jul 15 05:38:29 sparq, thats an interesting solution, i like it actually ... as long is not murderers and child molesters Jul 15 05:39:24 yeah, I kind of like it too. anyone who's not likely to be a violent repeat offender, maybe. Jul 15 05:40:10 Just realised you can get a Toshiba Libretto cheap right now, the things are tiny Jul 15 05:40:12 ChooseOpen, lol @ ebay no kiddin? Jul 15 05:40:16 416$ Jul 15 05:40:30 they run Linux fine Jul 15 05:40:35 they didnt even ship yet, and people are already selling them Jul 15 05:40:47 Linux_Galore, how tiny? googling Jul 15 05:41:53 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libretto_(notebook) Jul 15 05:42:29 umm that seller is shady Jul 15 05:43:00 http://www.pcmag.com/slideshow_viewer/0,1205,l=150285&s=1565&a=150314&po=3,00.asp?p=y Jul 15 05:43:06 ah yeah its pretty tiny indeed Jul 15 05:43:23 the reason i ordered the fujitsu is it also has that tablet mode Jul 15 05:43:32 daMaestro: why are they shady? (curious) Jul 15 05:43:39 you can pick up a Libretto (old stock) U100-2** series for less than US$400 Jul 15 05:43:47 i'm going to be going to my fav sushi restaurant and instead of reading a paper using blender via stylus instead Jul 15 05:43:53 thats pretty darned cool tho Jul 15 05:43:58 if you track their feedback.. it's for thinks like $1.75 grandcentral invite Jul 15 05:44:04 things* Jul 15 05:44:12 feedback from users that don't exist anymore Jul 15 05:44:19 daMaestro: I submitted a question asking how he knows that FIC is going to ship his phone. Jul 15 05:44:29 etc... that level of feedback could easily be 'spoofed' or 'netted' Jul 15 05:44:46 holycow: the US$400-500 price laos includes a DVD/Docking station Jul 15 05:44:52 also* Jul 15 05:46:06 http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,1895,1676362,00.asp ... now this is cool Jul 15 05:46:30 daMaestro, yes EXCEPT Jul 15 05:46:32 i tried that Jul 15 05:46:35 i also tried this: Jul 15 05:46:59 http://www.geekstuff4u.com/product_info.php?manufacturers_id=&products_id=455 Jul 15 05:47:01 same specs Jul 15 05:47:03 Linux toshi 2.6.22-7-generic #1 SMP Mon Jun 25 17:33:14 GMT 2007 i686 GNU/Linux Jul 15 05:47:14 the problem with BOTH of those is the goddamned kb Jul 15 05:47:18 dam Im liking Gutsy Jul 15 05:47:25 i was gonna buy the sony first and wing it but i can't use the kb Jul 15 05:47:41 its just bloody impossible to even type one word without a typo :/ Jul 15 05:47:54 both really great umpc platforms tho, just not terribly usefull Jul 15 05:48:03 holycow: OQO though I though was a Windows Vista Portable Edition machine Jul 15 05:48:08 the fujitsu actually had a kb you can thumb type with or scratch type iwth Jul 15 05:48:11 thought* Jul 15 05:48:19 well the sony one runs vista too Jul 15 05:48:34 it was actually fairly responsive, apps just loaded slowly Jul 15 05:49:20 holycow: some pretty kick as dual-core 1-1.3kg machines abut to hit the shelves Jul 15 05:49:21 yeah.. if i was going to buy something that ultra mobile i'd want the solid state disks Jul 15 05:49:23 counter Jul 15 05:49:24 (last update 2007-07-14 16:40) http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter : Order https://direct.openmoko.com/ ; Shipping prob. 65% in 2 days 06:10:30 (2.257±1.0 days) (1741;246) Jul 15 05:49:31 Linux_Galore, yeah *nod* Jul 15 05:49:51 daMaestro, *nod* totally Jul 15 05:50:08 the problem with solid state disks is you gotta get the os to keep everything in ram all the time Jul 15 05:50:11 holycow: dual core cpu in a machine around 1Kg, that is serious grunt in your hand Jul 15 05:50:20 which is a special config i don't want to deal with Jul 15 05:50:32 i'm waiting for the ibm permanent ram stuff they are working on Jul 15 05:50:43 once that happens no ram or hds, just solid state storage Jul 15 05:50:51 http://www.hardwarezone.com/news/view.php?id=7470&cid=9 is something i had taken a look at Jul 15 05:50:51 Linux_Galore, *nod* Jul 15 05:51:08 yeah totally, that would rock. you could like do serious 3d rendering on that or video editing or whatever Jul 15 05:51:15 target price range is ~$400 for that Jul 15 05:51:56 daMaestro: wont see it will 2006 though Jul 15 05:52:00 2008* Jul 15 05:52:07 yeah but again its flash solid state, you gotta watch the writes and your swap has to be in ram at all times Jul 15 05:52:26 the three "e's" Jul 15 05:52:35 daMaestro: Im getting a N800 bugger it lol Jul 15 05:52:38 Easy, Excellent and Excellent Jul 15 05:52:50 sagacis, hehe Jul 15 05:53:23 must admit the asus eee is allot of machine for the price Jul 15 05:53:29 well with openmoko in that kb pullout clamshell we talked about, i will get decent smartphone capability Jul 15 05:53:39 That's from the website Jul 15 05:53:42 and with a umpc like the fujitsu that will replace my desktop for about 98% of all things Jul 15 05:54:11 is anyone serious about doing the hardware mods? Jul 15 05:54:19 i will have one 10 tb fileserver at work and at home for massive storage and such and other things but i don't think ill have a desktop any more Jul 15 05:54:22 i've not been a huge hardware hacker.. but this might be fun Jul 15 05:54:25 daMaestro, i'm 100% serious Jul 15 05:54:29 i will spend money on it Jul 15 05:54:33 and i have a few people i'm willing to work with here in town Jul 15 05:54:38 i want it because it will make my job easier Jul 15 05:54:41 we all are getting the gta01 Jul 15 05:54:56 holycow: you dont really need a big assed machine if you run Linux as a portable, if it runs X11 you can just export everything from another machine in the house or office (thats what I will be doing with the N800) Jul 15 05:55:18 i'm really only interested in the formfactor of the case daMaestro the guts can be as is for my needs. what kind of things are you interested in? Jul 15 05:55:54 Linux_Galore, yeah thats what i will be experimenting with ... the superb thing about x11 protocol is all of a sudden the difference between a desktop/server and local/remote dissapear Jul 15 05:56:07 holycow: dont forget with Linux you can EXPORT_CPU -> Hand_Held Jul 15 05:56:20 the n800 is a really cool device i'd love to get one eventually Jul 15 05:56:26 something that i can irc and troubleshoot with completely mobile... i might end up just getting a cloth bluetooth keyboard.. but it would be nice to have a single unit Jul 15 05:56:40 i also want to be able to run mame... Jul 15 05:56:46 and doom... and most likely quake Jul 15 05:56:47 daMaestro, did you see my post about what i wanted to do? Jul 15 05:56:52 no Jul 15 05:56:57 oh sec Jul 15 05:57:03 i'm not on the mailing lists.. if that is where you sent it Jul 15 05:57:15 no no here Jul 15 05:57:25 this channel this conversation a while back :) Jul 15 05:57:25 sec Jul 15 05:57:36 the N800 for me wlll be a big assed fancy remote control for all my Linux box's so i dont have to keep running back to my main machine at home or work Jul 15 05:57:59 Linux_Galore, right Jul 15 05:58:05 thats exactly what i was tinking for the neo Jul 15 05:58:07 :) Jul 15 05:58:18 and the fujitsu too Jul 15 05:58:24 daMaestro, here is what i'm going to do: Jul 15 05:58:27 http://www.amazon.co.uk/i-mate-K-JAM-Pocket-Mobile-Phone/dp/B000B838H8/ref=pd_sim_dbs_ce_4_img/026-4497544-1829248 Jul 15 05:58:33 i'm going to buy one of those on ebay used Jul 15 05:58:33 you can imagine me sitting on the can playing a youtube videos lol Jul 15 05:58:42 and stick the moko guts into it and hook up the kb Jul 15 05:59:23 Linux_Galore, i play games on my cel while on the can ... its not that radical of an idea Jul 15 05:59:24 hehe :) Jul 15 05:59:34 i-mate is pretty small and the screen sux, next door neighbour has one Jul 15 05:59:47 well that style of phone Jul 15 05:59:54 anyone in here could be IRCing while on the can, and you'd never know Jul 15 05:59:55 >.> Jul 15 05:59:59 holycow, yeah... i want to actually spec out some hardware for a post-market retro of the neo case Jul 15 06:00:00 i gotta check out the sizes, i just got the idea while talking to you :) Jul 15 06:00:01 lol Jul 15 06:00:27 Ycros, and WE DON'T WANT TO KNOW Jul 15 06:00:28 lol! Jul 15 06:00:40 holycow: wife busted me the day I got my N95 sshing into one of the machines at work and patching a perl script lol Jul 15 06:00:49 Linux_Galore, ha! Jul 15 06:00:49 while in the can Jul 15 06:00:54 true g33k :) Jul 15 06:00:59 thats uber l33t Jul 15 06:01:16 hacking on perl does make the stool loose Jul 15 06:01:16 lol Jul 15 06:01:23 hehehe Jul 15 06:01:24 i hate perl Jul 15 06:01:30 * daMaestro <3 perl Jul 15 06:01:31 php is evil Jul 15 06:01:39 indeed it is Jul 15 06:02:09 i think a considerable amount of the reason i don't care for php is because of the code that people create with it Jul 15 06:02:22 i don't know enough about the language; but it's easy to write shit code with it Jul 15 06:02:26 kids learn to code with php, indeed Jul 15 06:02:42 well, it's easy Jul 15 06:02:44 daMaestro: or , you can write a 5 line function in perl that needs 40 in php Jul 15 06:02:48 and has good documentation Jul 15 06:03:06 Linux_Galore, sure, and only the author will ever understand it :) Jul 15 06:03:08 i kid! Jul 15 06:03:09 I don't know. heh. Jul 15 06:03:19 yeah, perl is pretty write-only Jul 15 06:03:20 :P Jul 15 06:03:42 I hate to be the poor bastard who has to fix the servers Ive been working on when I leave Jul 15 06:03:49 heh Jul 15 06:04:01 i hope you document everything? Jul 15 06:04:02 where do you work so I know not to get a job there Jul 15 06:04:10 hehe Jul 15 06:04:19 holycow: doc...um-ment what is this word Jul 15 06:04:36 oopsie! Jul 15 06:04:42 most every time i've worked with perl in a corp env. it's been nasty.. "it needs to be done yesterday" scripts Jul 15 06:04:45 holycow: Im a comment nazi to be honest Jul 15 06:05:03 so i've almost always moved to porting everything over to HTML::Mason and just calling it good Jul 15 06:05:03 lol Jul 15 06:05:04 Python is my favourite general-purpose programming language Jul 15 06:05:10 I comment everything Jul 15 06:05:27 yes, python has become my number two language; only because CPAN still rocks python Jul 15 06:05:32 Ycros, mine too, hard core c people seem to hate python but its easy to get thinggs done in it Jul 15 06:05:41 Im starting on ruby Jul 15 06:05:43 CPAN owns all Jul 15 06:05:47 * daMaestro blah.... ruby Jul 15 06:05:55 yeah but CPAN is fsking awsome Jul 15 06:06:04 ruby = pythonized perl Jul 15 06:06:10 not sure what the benefits are :) Jul 15 06:06:18 python has the cheese shop Jul 15 06:06:28 and easy install Jul 15 06:06:30 ruby has gems Jul 15 06:06:34 holycow, :) Jul 15 06:06:44 oh there you are xkr47 Jul 15 06:06:45 lol! Jul 15 06:06:49 one thing Python doesnt have that Perl has and thats CPAN, the amount of stuff in there is just amazing Jul 15 06:06:50 what ?-) Jul 15 06:06:58 yeah, I don't see that much difference between ruby and python, except ruby is much more perlish Jul 15 06:07:01 i wondered where your python bashing went :) Jul 15 06:07:08 I've done ruby programming as wel Jul 15 06:07:16 lol Jul 15 06:07:18 Linux_Galore, oh.. i want to do this insane "thing"... 5 minutes later.. "it's working" Jul 15 06:07:23 Linux_Galore, python does have a lot of stuff as well though Jul 15 06:07:38 aka... i needed to write a fully threaded recursive download monster Jul 15 06:07:53 Python is catching up Jul 15 06:07:59 use Thread::Pool; [...] done. Jul 15 06:08:00 lol Jul 15 06:08:05 Linux_Galore, probably nowhere near as much though Jul 15 06:08:16 use White::Space; Jul 15 06:08:28 Ycros: naaw, I know allot of server geeks and they all mainly use perl Jul 15 06:08:35 Linux_Galore, aye Jul 15 06:08:52 but I know many who use python now Jul 15 06:08:53 python really needs an optimized interpreter tho Jul 15 06:09:01 and yet others who use ruby Jul 15 06:09:07 yes, i hope we get something that runs well on the neo Jul 15 06:09:28 choosing a language is about who you are, not about what would suit the purpose best :-) Jul 15 06:09:28 holycow, it sucks that psyco only runs on i386, and is unmaintained these days Jul 15 06:09:36 see who is the first to run Apache on his phone Jul 15 06:09:41 holycow, hopefully the pypy project is going to produce something awesome though Jul 15 06:09:55 then ring up for support from Apache Jul 15 06:10:07 python 3 is being contemplated i understand so until that has a few revisions i doubt anyone will spend time on a new python runtime Jul 15 06:10:20 python 3k is awesome Jul 15 06:10:26 Ycros, never heard of pypy, googling Jul 15 06:11:10 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pypy Jul 15 06:11:15 I keep looking at Io (www.iolanguage.com) and thinking "man, this has GOT to be good for some sort of small-device work..." Jul 15 06:11:27 all praise the great wiki gods Jul 15 06:11:30 wiml, thats an interesting thought Jul 15 06:11:32 *hmm* Jul 15 06:11:36 I've been looking at ocaml recently Jul 15 06:12:31 holycow, pypy can translate into native code, and has a JIT that they're working on Jul 15 06:12:58 io seems cool Jul 15 06:13:09 lua is also popular on the lightweight languages front Jul 15 06:13:17 and/or embeddable languages Jul 15 06:14:04 stackless python is also used in quite a few games and such, because it too is lighter (and has awesome microthreading capabilities) Jul 15 06:15:41 Ycros, pypy seems interesting Jul 15 06:15:59 i wouldn't be surprised if we see tcl show up again for embedable stuff Jul 15 06:16:10 a friend of mine has been into Squeak for the last few years ... a Squeak-based phone would be another interesting idea Jul 15 06:16:14 yeah, pypy is very interesting, and has potential Jul 15 06:16:14 xotcl even has object orientedness Jul 15 06:16:29 espacially now that they've secured funding from the EU Jul 15 06:17:12 wiml, i'm bookmarking io once again Jul 15 06:17:20 heh Jul 15 06:17:20 someone even wrote a javascript translator for pypy for fun, so you have a python interpreter that runs on javascript code Jul 15 06:17:26 anything that has lisp listed as an influence is good in my book Jul 15 06:17:36 Ycros, oh cool, hehe Jul 15 06:18:21 dang that must be a ton of javascript Jul 15 06:18:30 probably Jul 15 06:18:32 can any browser actually run such a thing? Jul 15 06:18:45 (seriously i know it's intended for recompiling python apps) Jul 15 06:18:49 it was a "just because we can" exercise Jul 15 06:19:07 an interesting one too Jul 15 06:19:21 meanwhile guido and the rest of the python dev team seem content to stick with their C implementation Jul 15 06:19:48 linus seems to think c is the hammer of the gods Jul 15 06:19:49 :) Jul 15 06:20:05 and on the seventh day the gods created dynamic languages Jul 15 06:20:15 I wouldn't mind if something like D replaced C Jul 15 06:20:18 and then rested on the eighth. they ran a day late. Jul 15 06:20:47 (D is pretty awesome, and allows for inline asm/playing with pointers (optionally!), and has C-like performance) Jul 15 06:20:51 on the ninth he created richard stallman, gcc and emacs Jul 15 06:21:21 nah gcc came earlier, they needed it. Jul 15 06:21:35 python with a really nice jit would be awesome Jul 15 06:21:37 had to port their code to run Suns. Jul 15 06:21:59 ah Jul 15 06:22:01 hopefully the pypy jit'll grow up for that Jul 15 06:22:09 yep Jul 15 06:22:22 do they have more eu funding coming up? i thought it ended Jul 15 06:22:44 the whole point of the pypy project, is that if it's all written in Python, it's easy to mess with writing your own gc/jit/memory allocators Jul 15 06:23:06 yeah :) Jul 15 06:23:49 yeah, but they had a review, and the project was "accepted" Jul 15 06:23:57 I don't know if that means more funding or what Jul 15 06:24:28 I've been playing with erlang, common lisp, and ocaml recently Jul 15 06:24:31 all nice languages Jul 15 06:24:54 the thing I like about python is that for me it strikes a balance in between the worlds of functional, imperative and OO programming Jul 15 06:25:21 I see asian people in my swiming pool http://curiousphotos.blogspot.com/2007/07/curious-add-on-07-14-07.html Jul 15 06:25:21 i'm not a programmer i just hack away at stuff, i like python for a really stupid reason Jul 15 06:25:24 i can read it Jul 15 06:25:32 YES! Jul 15 06:25:36 and that was my next point Jul 15 06:25:39 not well versed on intricacies of language design tho Jul 15 06:25:44 the syntax is awesome, and there isn't much of it Jul 15 06:25:56 yeah its just readable, it makes sense to me visually Jul 15 06:26:09 lisp is filled with parens, erlang has horrible prolog-inspired syntax, and OCaml has way to much of it imo Jul 15 06:26:24 actually i also love list for the same reason Jul 15 06:26:37 the perens really don't bother me thats just something that is taken care of by the ide Jul 15 06:26:45 holycow: Try learning Scheme. It's not especially useful, but it's simple, and it will teach you a lot of the formal thinking in language design and CS. Jul 15 06:26:48 taking away braces, and letting indentation that programmers put there _anyway_ be meaningful was a brrilliant idea Jul 15 06:27:10 yeah, lisp is awesome Jul 15 06:27:16 sparq, yeah its on the todo list *nod* i've been told the same Jul 15 06:27:24 dont blink another slim Linux laptop rears its head http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/NS5060055175.html Jul 15 06:27:29 Ycros, actually thats not a bad idea Jul 15 06:27:30 lol Jul 15 06:27:31 sparq, I avoided scheme because everyone told me it was useless for getting anything done Jul 15 06:27:38 if one could take away perens in lisp and use indentation Jul 15 06:27:39 *hmmm* Jul 15 06:27:51 holycow, I was talking about Python, but anyway :P Jul 15 06:27:54 holycow: http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/matthias/BTLS/ Jul 15 06:28:00 (good place to start Jul 15 06:28:05 Ycros, i know, its still an interesyting idea for lisp :) Jul 15 06:28:22 sparq, danke btw :) Jul 15 06:28:27 *bookmark* Jul 15 06:28:35 I don't think scheme/lisp is as useless as all that Jul 15 06:28:54 ocaml has vaguely lispish syntax, except you don't need parens around a toplevel expression, and it has an ; operator which joins expressions together (thus giving you imperative programming!) Jul 15 06:28:55 but on the other hand I do use other languages most of the time, so who knows Jul 15 06:29:04 I thought the ; operator was pretty clever. Jul 15 06:29:10 Ycros: It is useful, but it's not conventional. Scheme will not get you many jobs as a skill in itself. But it will teach you about CS. Jul 15 06:29:31 lisp in general seems to be growing tho Jul 15 06:29:38 sparq, aye Jul 15 06:29:46 all my coder friends have rediscoverd it in the last 4 or 5 years in some way Jul 15 06:29:53 even as *oh cool* kind of thing Jul 15 06:30:05 I'm pretty attached to cl's loop macro though :P Jul 15 06:30:28 Linux_Galore, yeah i saw that dealie from palm, its an interesting device, but i'm not exactly certain what problem they are solving with those Jul 15 06:30:40 I learned it because I wanted emacs to do something. I don't remember what it was, though... ^_^ Jul 15 06:30:48 Linux_Galore, palms biggest problem right now is tha tpalm os sucks but it has a bazillion legacy apps Jul 15 06:31:24 Linux_Galore, i hear this fall linux kerenel is s upposed to be underpinning their new devices giving them multitasking and such finally, and running some kind of palm emu environment for their palm legacy apps, not sure Jul 15 06:31:42 video of the same machine -> http://www.brighthand.com/default.asp?newsID=13139 Jul 15 06:32:25 lisp has a bunch of bindings for things like gtk and qt, i wouldn't eventually mind learning it Jul 15 06:32:43 holycow: notice now that Microsoft is moving into the hardware space more and more that companies are looking at Linux because they are just realising they have created a monster Jul 15 06:33:00 Microsft is making PC's in India now Jul 15 06:33:06 Linux_Galore, yeah they are learning that you haveto control the whole stack to maintain control Jul 15 06:33:22 yeah i read about that, linux was making inroads and no one wanted to pay for win Jul 15 06:33:50 lest all be honest the xbox is also a PC Jul 15 06:33:56 lets* Jul 15 06:33:59 yeah Jul 15 06:34:04 thats what pissed Dell off Jul 15 06:34:04 they want to stream tv and movies through that Jul 15 06:34:31 the week Microsoft released the XBOX36 Micheal Dell purchased a big chunk of red hat Jul 15 06:34:41 Linux_Galore, what kind of os does that palm thing run? Jul 15 06:34:47 that is not appealling to me at all on any level Jul 15 06:35:01 holycow: the palm thing is linux underneath Jul 15 06:35:07 wiml, oh really? Jul 15 06:35:12 yeah the Foleo runs Linux Jul 15 06:35:19 its got that damned nipple mouse Jul 15 06:35:20 wow Jul 15 06:35:42 Palm have been working on a Linux solution for a few years now Jul 15 06:35:42 okay it runs linux its gone up one poitn for that, but lost one poitn for the nipple mouse Jul 15 06:35:43 lol Jul 15 06:36:14 PalmOS just doesnt cut it anymore Jul 15 06:36:40 yeah from what i've read it crashes all the time on treos Jul 15 06:36:43 totally unstable Jul 15 06:36:43 yeah, palmos was a pretty good fit for the old 1998-era palms Jul 15 06:36:58 but not so great for modern hardware Jul 15 06:37:04 oh okay i get what the foleo is Jul 15 06:37:26 its basically a large palm device with apps running full time in the background, simplified to keyboard shortcuts Jul 15 06:37:27 its getting to the stage were it will be Linux Hardware makers v Microsoft Jul 15 06:37:34 i hope some Jul 15 06:37:49 my next mobo is a gigabyte Jul 15 06:37:59 appearently they have a model that officially support linux bios Jul 15 06:38:05 so even there its getting interesting Jul 15 06:38:12 LG,Sony,Nokia,IBM just to name a few have jumped onto the Linux bandwagon Jul 15 06:38:15 tyan ships some models with linuxbios preinstalled Jul 15 06:38:37 I have a friend that loves his treo and palmOS Jul 15 06:38:46 he doesn't want to go anywhere near windows mobile Jul 15 06:39:06 ooh looks the Sony PS3 tuns Linux wonder why,oooh right the XBOX360 made by Microsoft runs windows also made by Microsoft Jul 15 06:39:13 Ycros, i'm exactly the same Jul 15 06:39:23 i litterally feel sick when i haveto use an ms product of any kind Jul 15 06:39:26 i'm not kidding Jul 15 06:39:31 my stomach starts to turn Jul 15 06:39:47 I wish the PSP ran Linux Jul 15 06:39:52 Linux_Galore, the PS3 can run linux, but not as it's main OS Jul 15 06:40:02 Ycros: yeah I know Jul 15 06:40:03 what does the ps3 run as the main os? Jul 15 06:40:12 custom sony thing Jul 15 06:40:20 ug Jul 15 06:40:26 but it's awesome that sony let you install other operating systems on it Jul 15 06:40:31 Ycros: yeah but 8 of the 9 cpu cell cores will run Linux Jul 15 06:40:33 actually i saw that demo Jul 15 06:40:38 there's an "other OS" option in the menu Jul 15 06:40:38 it is a neat thing Jul 15 06:40:47 it would of been cooler if it was linux Jul 15 06:40:57 Ycros: the Sony os will be just running as a hypervisor Jul 15 06:41:09 buying a PS3 is much cheaper than buying a dedicated cell thing Jul 15 06:41:12 well actually no it wouldn't, you can't really port apps from the cel processor to x86 Jul 15 06:41:15 if you want to run/devel on the cell Jul 15 06:41:23 i bet the sony os is a linux kernel Jul 15 06:41:30 it probably isn't Jul 15 06:41:37 i know that ibm submitted cel process patches to linux Jul 15 06:41:47 I think their devkits are based around gcc though Jul 15 06:41:58 you think they made an os specifically for gameplaying on the cel? Jul 15 06:42:13 yes Jul 15 06:42:16 oh btw if anyone here from moko is listening Jul 15 06:42:19 just like with the PSP Jul 15 06:42:27 there is a thing on youtube were a guy is running Linux and three PS3's as a cluster and has real time vector graphics rendering, 10 years ago you would have needed a $10mill supercomputer Jul 15 06:42:30 you guys might want to market your moko at some point in time as a gaming platform Jul 15 06:42:34 seriously Jul 15 06:43:01 i'm sure thats on the drawing board ... the wiki says something about other models considered for later Jul 15 06:43:18 Im talking 100% vector not partial like some graphics cards fo Jul 15 06:43:20 do* Jul 15 06:43:37 Linux_Galore, the big problem with the ps3 is a) you are doing clustering over tcp/ip and second ram is miniscule Jul 15 06:43:42 *nod* Jul 15 06:43:52 Linux_Galore, care to give the link? Jul 15 06:44:01 Sup3rkiddo: hmm let me look Jul 15 06:44:15 yeah, I'm surprised at the amount of RAM they have Jul 15 06:44:27 then again, really lightweight OS Jul 15 06:44:28 who gave me that little schemer link? Jul 15 06:44:34 it turns out ther eis a little lisper book as well Jul 15 06:44:35 lol Jul 15 06:44:40 i think i'll be getting both Jul 15 06:45:19 what was the link? Jul 15 06:45:20 the iolanguage.com faq is very interesting Jul 15 06:45:33 http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/matthias/BTLS/ Jul 15 06:45:33 the ram in the ps3 is supposed to be very fast though Jul 15 06:45:48 also video ram is miniscule too Jul 15 06:46:08 *hmmm* Jul 15 06:46:12 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oLte5f34ya8&mode=related&search= Jul 15 06:46:20 io could be an interesting thing to think about in a lot of applications Jul 15 06:46:20 wow Jul 15 06:46:47 ddr4 ram Jul 15 06:47:29 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eEg7q2lk3QM Jul 15 06:47:43 another example Jul 15 06:51:12 io has gtk bindings too *hmm* Jul 15 06:51:31 (script) openmoko-gsmd: Sean Moss-Pultz Re: GSM modem documentation Jul 15 06:53:02 Linux_Galore, okay that is bloody cool Jul 15 06:53:03 wow Jul 15 06:55:24 ok so my sponsor replied the YES_I_DO thingy, but as with all mail clients "Re" was prepended to the subject..will it cause problems Jul 15 06:56:15 holycow: I think the Little Schemer is the revised edition of the Little Lisper Jul 15 06:56:27 ah! Jul 15 06:56:58 Supposedly, Scheme is the heir to the house of Lisp Jul 15 06:57:56 well not in my book :) Jul 15 06:58:03 professors seem to think so Jul 15 06:58:04 hehe :) Jul 15 06:59:05 Linux_Galore, that real time rendering of the street is VERY impressive Jul 15 06:59:27 i used to do 3d animation, that takes A LOT of hardware to pull off Jul 15 06:59:35 what's so impresive about it? Jul 15 06:59:36 appearently not any more Jul 15 06:59:49 it's slow as hell :) Jul 15 06:59:53 soft shadows and light bouncing off of surfaces Jul 15 07:00:35 any of todays gpu can do even more Jul 15 07:01:09 not antialiased Jul 15 07:01:20 true i can't tell if thats antialiased Jul 15 07:01:21 :) Jul 15 07:03:28 i would be impresed if neo could do that even in 320x200 Jul 15 07:04:15 ynezz: most of the new graphics card can only do "partial" vector rendering Jul 15 07:05:17 ok Jul 15 07:05:41 ynezz: some parts of the screen are and some isnt, doing the whole screen takes allot fo grunt Jul 15 07:05:55 for games would be overkill Jul 15 07:06:24 does anyone know much about the graphics accelerator in the GTA02? the SMedia 3362? Jul 15 07:09:32 yeah, I'd be interested in know it's capabilities Jul 15 07:09:41 it's probably on the wiki somewhere Jul 15 07:10:45 i think it's another part with nda Jul 15 07:10:54 but specs should be available Jul 15 07:12:02 http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/openmoko-devel/2007-July/001074.html Jul 15 07:12:16 "open" :) Jul 15 07:12:36 phooey, I was hoping they'd found an open gpu Jul 15 07:12:44 super-skimpy info from the mfr: http://www.smediatech.com/product3362.htm Jul 15 07:13:35 well at least there will be sources so you can use them Jul 15 07:13:50 hope without some binary part :) Jul 15 07:14:31 * wiml hates the stupid situation surrounding 3d graphics hardware Jul 15 07:14:50 anyway I don't get it why smedia can't make some censored version of their docs for distribution without nda Jul 15 07:15:10 so the next one up does h264 Jul 15 07:15:13 that would have been nice Jul 15 07:16:30 shame intel dont have a bigger footprint on mobile devices Jul 15 07:16:52 ie 3d mobile graphics Jul 15 07:16:52 they had Jul 15 07:20:10 and are planning on it again... sorta Jul 15 07:20:25 they want to get 10-20% of the cell phone market with silverthorne Jul 15 07:20:52 ddon't know why they sold pxa over to nda kingdom^W^Wmarwell Jul 15 07:20:56 an x86 openmoko, assuming silverthorne's power consumption would be low enough would be interesting Jul 15 07:21:09 because they figured out just how well the pentium-m core dieshrinks Jul 15 07:21:21 it's insanely small at 45nm Jul 15 07:21:57 and what is *with* marvell and their ndas anyhow? Jul 15 07:22:07 yeah their new santa rosa platforms is a push in that direction Jul 15 07:22:29 i think its a simultaneous lower power, lower die size plus faster gfx all in one Jul 15 07:22:37 actually the first bit is a100/a110... rebadged dothan at <5w Jul 15 07:23:02 paired up with a downclocked i915 Jul 15 07:23:17 the fujitsu i ordered is just a 90nm dothan downscaled to 800mhz and a tiny cache, the next intel cpu chipset +cpu are supposed to 45nm and theoretically kick some serious butt Jul 15 07:23:30 happycube, right thats what the fujitsu is *nod* Jul 15 07:24:00 yup, that's it Jul 15 07:24:18 i bet the 3g iphone will have it Jul 15 07:24:24 ok, not much, but still Jul 15 07:24:44 yeah totally Jul 15 07:24:50 i'm sure openmoko will be able to use it too Jul 15 07:25:07 it'd mean more for openmoko than the iphone Jul 15 07:25:37 totally Jul 15 07:26:37 more speed, portability, 3d with fragment shaders... Jul 15 07:27:00 the only problem you run into then is windows Jul 15 07:27:16 people will just be running vista or whatever on them and co's will get the gaming stuff to run on phones Jul 15 07:27:30 which would negate moko trying to go for that niche Jul 15 07:27:44 i don't think vista'd actually do well on these Jul 15 07:28:07 it already runs well on whatever the sony ux90 is running ... Jul 15 07:28:09 depends on if the 45nm chipset is i915 or 945... the latter would support aero glass Jul 15 07:28:29 well vista is just a royal fuckup bad example Jul 15 07:28:35 *nod* Jul 15 07:28:44 the baseline a1xx is expected to be paired up with 915 Jul 15 07:28:45 i mean beryl does 1000 times more things than vista and cpu doesn't budge so ... Jul 15 07:28:47 so no aero glass Jul 15 07:28:47 http://tunteella.xerc.biz/1309.gif Jul 15 07:28:54 bery would run on i915 Jul 15 07:29:01 yup Jul 15 07:29:23 but either capable of ogl or directx makes games companies salivate Jul 15 07:29:25 glass ran on the i915 in beta and then supposedly microsoft demanded something Jul 15 07:29:45 and they couldn't make 915 work with it anymore Jul 15 07:29:55 incredibly arbitrary since 915/945 are so similar Jul 15 07:30:01 Linux_Galore, funny you posted that. did you see the project where they take garfield comics and remove all the dialog? Jul 15 07:30:06 they are VERY FUNNY without dialog Jul 15 07:30:21 heh Jul 15 07:30:23 happycube, the ways of microsoft are a mystery tome Jul 15 07:31:03 indeed Jul 15 07:31:18 i wish we could rip the gaming support out from under them somehow, i was hoping a micro platform like moko might restart the race ... Jul 15 07:31:29 but now that we have been chatting up about the next cpus and chipsets ... Jul 15 07:32:06 the fredom thing is a very important and good sell Jul 15 07:32:28 but the shallow self interest of game addicts is far easier a sell Jul 15 07:33:39 well if openmoko had a lot of free games they'd just be enjoying the freedom in a different way Jul 15 07:34:01 and the 915 opens some doors graphicswise too Jul 15 07:34:29 we would need a few things to happen at the same time i think Jul 15 07:34:43 some sort of ogl wrapper environment to rival the ease of use of dx Jul 15 07:35:11 well that would be the main one for anything beyond tetris on steroids Jul 15 07:35:12 heh Jul 15 07:41:46 or nethack Jul 15 07:42:38 damn so then we have the same sales job as we have now Jul 15 07:42:40 *hmmm* Jul 15 07:43:55 or j2me lol Jul 15 07:45:52 i think, that first we need to port moko into ncurses so it would be usable/fast :) Jul 15 07:46:15 and find some good ascii artist for icons Jul 15 07:46:42 hehehe :) Jul 15 07:48:42 i think it would looks nice in 640x480 on such small screen Jul 15 07:51:29 oh and these are the people i keep on wanting to convert to an open and free : Jul 15 07:51:31 http://wcbstv.com/seenon/local_story_193212517.html Jul 15 07:51:33 *sigh* Jul 15 07:51:36 humanity needs a reboot Jul 15 08:00:22 morning :) Jul 15 08:01:50 morning Jul 15 08:05:19 :( gadgetfs network emulation is still not working, could it be interfering with this usbfs mount? Jul 15 08:07:07 can the AR6K inject packets? Jul 15 08:19:12 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[P1_Owners]] [[Wish_List_-_Hardware]] [[Neo1973_compatible_cellphone_providers]] Jul 15 08:19:25 Um, great drives, I can't decompress the tarballs. Jul 15 08:33:24 YES!!!! ssh into qemu neo emulator: pwned! Jul 15 08:34:01 gcb77: Nice work :) Jul 15 09:21:23 I'm still having trouble with gadgetfs, so no ssh into emulator :( Jul 15 09:24:23 gcb77: Did you see what the "gadget_ep_parse: failed to configure gadgetfs: -16" meanss? Jul 15 09:25:30 how do I make the kernel ignore the machine id ? Jul 15 09:30:34 Seems the moko phone have no Wifi chipset yet ? right ? Jul 15 09:30:46 *sigh* Jul 15 09:31:15 mjr, seems like tons of people have started coming to openmoko channel now that it is "real" Jul 15 09:32:56 yeah, and asking the same questions everyone who isn't doing anything for the platform asks first Jul 15 09:33:07 !wifi Jul 15 09:33:18 or what was the trigger Jul 15 09:33:22 !wlan Jul 15 09:33:31 mjr: gta02 will have. Jul 15 09:33:33 anyway, no, wait until the mass market release Jul 15 09:33:37 I KNOW Jul 15 09:33:43 mjr, ya..*sigh* which is hilarious considering you have to use the wiki to get the irc channel Jul 15 09:33:46 mjr: sorry, you were the wrong recipient Jul 15 09:34:04 write_erase: gta02 will have as is to be read on the webpage and in the announcements Jul 15 09:34:30 but that wlan chipset cant do injection right? Jul 15 09:34:31 Currently sold Neo1973 GTA01B_v04 (P1) doesn't have WiFi, GTA02 (P2) which is scheduled for October will have WiFi with free (libre) drivers (Atheros AR6K): http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ#Q:_What_is_the_rationale_behind_the_exclusion_of_WiFi.3F Jul 15 09:35:08 the question of the chips capabilities is a more interesting one and I haven't seen definitive answers, though haven't looked very hard myself Jul 15 09:35:21 Ive googled a bit Jul 15 09:35:33 also, power consumption was a factor iirc Jul 15 09:35:35 apparently the chipset is used in wlan-cf cards Jul 15 09:35:44 great... I'll wait fot the GTA02 as I don't have much money Jul 15 09:36:03 thats prolly why its power consumption is good Jul 15 09:36:12 I'd like to have atheros chipset in it ... Jul 15 09:36:34 it is Jul 15 09:36:44 "Atheros AR6K" Jul 15 09:36:54 if you mean the ones driven by madwifi, no you don't Jul 15 09:37:09 they take too much power, and besides, no binary kernel modules for our phone thanks Jul 15 09:37:48 Ok... Jul 15 09:38:15 Someone made measurements of Neo1973 authonomy in GSM mode, with bluetooth ? Jul 15 09:38:24 and in stanby Jul 15 09:38:55 there were some numbers in the wiki Jul 15 09:40:40 I'll buy a gta02 in an instant if wlan packet injection works Jul 15 09:41:01 have to wait untill people get their hands on them and hack them or something Jul 15 09:41:36 I can certainly see innocent uses for that, but I wonder Jul 15 09:42:22 mjr: trigger is without '!' Jul 15 09:42:28 wifi Jul 15 09:42:29 Currently sold Neo1973 GTA01B_v04 (P1) doesn't have WiFi, GTA02 (P2) which is scheduled for October will have WiFi with free (libre) drivers (Atheros AR6K): http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ#Q:_What_is_the_rationale_behind_the_exclusion_of_WiFi.3F Jul 15 09:42:32 righto Jul 15 09:43:34 hehe :) Jul 15 09:44:49 * aloril2 should experiment with bayesian stuff to cut down useless faq triggers and possibly make more generic '?' trigger Jul 15 09:47:00 with generic '?' I mean that lone ? (or maybe !) in line would search few previous lines and search various faq pages and respond with most appropriate one Jul 15 09:48:22 wifi trigger has quite good hit rate though Jul 15 10:10:17 Nokia N95i with 8Gb of storage seen in the wild -> http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u117/Gizza22/NokiaN953.jpg Jul 15 10:11:39 actually 8GB Jul 15 10:19:55 another pic of the same phone http://www.intomobile.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/07/n.jpg Jul 15 10:23:37 does someone had problems a "fstests" problem building openmoko? Jul 15 10:27:19 hardskinone: What error did you get (pastebin). Jul 15 10:28:35 http://pastebin.com/m5f7be48b Jul 15 10:29:03 I got this error on both Fedora 7 and Ubuntu 7.04 Jul 15 10:30:18 Oh, it can't find it. Jul 15 10:31:10 hardskinone: make setup was successful? Jul 15 10:31:46 yes, Jul 15 10:32:35 that error come launching make openmoko-devel-image Jul 15 10:33:35 Could you run openembedded/packages/fs* and see if fstest is in the output please? Jul 15 10:34:10 hardskinone: build fstests manually, then try again Jul 15 10:35:26 make build-package-fstests Jul 15 10:36:25 mm, it runs w/o issue but looks like it does nothing... Jul 15 10:36:36 "cd build; . ../env-update; bitbake fstests" should work also. Jul 15 10:38:12 . ../env-update fails Jul 15 10:39:57 s/env-update/setup-env/ Jul 15 10:39:57 ewanm89_laptop meant: "cd build; . ../setup-env; bitbake fstests" should work also. Jul 15 10:40:16 http://pastebin.com/m3c1c3fb <-- make build-package-fstests Jul 15 10:41:25 hardskinone: It has done it then. Jul 15 10:42:14 try openmoko-devel-image again. Jul 15 10:42:58 I launch it. Jul 15 10:45:00 :( same error Jul 15 10:45:41 the build-package-fstests didn't do anything Jul 15 10:46:05 no, as it though it was already built. Jul 15 10:46:24 fstets looks part of a openmoko-debug package, there is a way to exclude it from build? Jul 15 10:46:35 sure, edit the recipe Jul 15 10:47:48 hardskinone: Are you compiling for an actual neo, or emulator? Jul 15 10:49:36 I don't own neo, I trying setting up the environment (like desribe here: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Getting_Openmoko_working_on_host_with_Xoo) Jul 15 10:49:40 edit oe/packages/tasks/task-openmoko.bb and remove fstests if you don't want it in Jul 15 10:49:46 (note that make update will put it back) Jul 15 10:50:43 rwhitby: Shouldn't we try removing the stamp first? Jul 15 10:51:07 ewanm89_laptop: which stamp? Jul 15 10:51:45 it's unlikely that it's built but not deployed the package for do_rootfs to find. Jul 15 10:52:28 The compile stamps, bitbake thinks it's compiled it, but can't find the file, but it won't try again because it created the stamp to say it did it. Jul 15 10:53:31 just do a make clean-package-fstests in that case and then rebuild it Jul 15 10:55:26 so, I make openmoko-devel-image but still fails in same way. Now I launch make-clane-package-fstests ; make openmoko-devel-image Jul 15 10:57:35 hardskinone: You have to increase the PR number by one in that task-openmoko.bb file. Jul 15 11:01:38 wow, no works. Jul 15 11:02:06 no, sorry :) noW works. Jul 15 11:02:59 I excluded fstests from task-openmoko.b; increased PR number; and I re-launched make openmoko-devel-image. Jul 15 11:04:03 thanks for your help. Jul 15 11:04:30 np Jul 15 11:22:47 hi there Jul 15 11:54:52 Sigh. Jul 15 11:55:03 Someone actually added FPGA to the wishlist. Jul 15 11:55:13 ~v12 Jul 15 11:55:14 extra, extra, read all about it, v12 is the next must-have in the Neo1973, http://www.ultimatestupidity.com/pics/1/diesel/ Jul 15 11:55:30 * SpeedEvil has moved it out into unlikely. Jul 15 11:55:33 I stand by my wishlist item. It just needs a little time for miniaturisation. Jul 15 11:55:40 * Stephmw tickles SpeedEvil Jul 15 11:55:49 Though there were actually several other sane comments by the user. Jul 15 11:56:29 A .049' V12 could be made around the same size as the phone. Jul 15 11:57:51 fgpa? Jul 15 11:58:26 Field Programmable Gate Array Jul 15 11:58:30 ah right Jul 15 11:58:49 I'm getting an error cannot find dbus-binding-tool when attempting to build the dialer, any ideas? Jul 15 11:59:06 Basically a generalised 'sea' of logic, which can be customised into everything from processors to special purpose logic. Jul 15 11:59:26 i hope fic makes some more models soon Jul 15 11:59:28 FPGA: a hardware version of software Jul 15 11:59:38 Pretty much. Jul 15 12:00:31 fpga's have a place... a phone isn't it. Jul 15 12:00:33 * MangoFusion wonders what battery life would be like with everything but the kitchen sink included Jul 15 12:00:50 MangoFusion: with the v12, power wouldn't be a problem :D Jul 15 12:01:00 haha Jul 15 12:03:30 what version are we now? Jul 15 12:03:39 version? Jul 15 12:04:36 what kernel is included at this moment Jul 15 12:04:39 tim: dunno about you, but I'm still good ol' v1.0 Jul 15 12:04:56 tim: the day that my wife opts for v2.0 is the day I look for another home.. Jul 15 12:05:00 2.6.20 IIRC Jul 15 12:05:14 did you already own a neo Jul 15 12:05:23 orders from 16/7 Jul 15 12:05:31 100ish people do. About 12 in this channel. Jul 15 12:05:44 with shipment from monday Jul 15 12:05:44 Of varying hardware versions. Jul 15 12:06:05 does anyone know if the new mutli-touch implementation in mpx needs a multi-touch hardware aswell, or if it could be used to have multi-touch on the neo aswell? Jul 15 12:06:05 what processor ?200MHz Jul 15 12:06:14 like the htc touch 3450 Jul 15 12:06:43 will the october device have a 400 Mhz processor? Jul 15 12:07:06 baze: the trick with multitouch is that is uses multuple pointers, so you could simulate it with mpx + 2 (usb/bt) mice Jul 15 12:07:06 faq? Jul 15 12:07:06 See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (and also SH1_FAQ, Neo1973, Developer_preview and Neo1973_Hardware#GTA01Bv4 pages) Jul 15 12:07:38 koen: reportedly, someones pushing multiple pointer - mpx into X Jul 15 12:07:57 right Jul 15 12:08:08 Peter Hutterer Jul 15 12:08:15 see http://planet.freedesktop.org/ for cool demos Jul 15 12:08:15 i'm kindof half tempted to get the developer phone now... Jul 15 12:08:17 but i'm kind of torn between the question of "do i wait and get the faster more stable version with wifi" or "do i get the slower current version which isn't quite ready yet but i could always just use the cool bluetooth instead" Jul 15 12:08:25 koen: but you can't use gestures with 2 fingers on the touchscreen, right? Jul 15 12:08:28 The hardware is stable. Jul 15 12:08:42 damn, it's a shame that the GtkFileChooser widget is this slow Jul 15 12:08:46 baze: the current screen is signletouch. Jul 15 12:08:46 imho it should spawn a thread Jul 15 12:08:46 doesn't quite help that i have been disappointed with devices with everything (i.e. bluetooth + wifi + kitchen sink) before Jul 15 12:08:49 ;) Jul 15 12:08:51 baze: not with this hardware, it will even out the to touches Jul 15 12:08:59 ok, thanks Jul 15 12:09:22 baze: you get a reported touch somewhere in the bounding box of the touches on the display. Jul 15 12:09:33 Computing exactly where is a little tricky. Jul 15 12:09:42 the stuff I'm very eager of are the two accelerometers Jul 15 12:09:54 then let's hope that future versions will feature a multi-touch screen ;) Jul 15 12:10:08 bedboi: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Accelerometer_Fundamentals Jul 15 12:10:23 it will be very cool to play with'em Jul 15 12:10:41 Many people think they can do more than they can. Jul 15 12:15:22 what are you saying? i can't answer my email, develop software, read my rss feeds, play counterstrike, do the washing, juggle some balls, and save the planet all at the same time? Jul 15 12:15:32 * MangoFusion subsequently has a nervous breakdown Jul 15 12:15:40 The accelerometers. Jul 15 12:15:50 You can't for example do inertial navigation with them. Jul 15 12:16:00 Well - not generally. Jul 15 12:16:09 oh right ;- Jul 15 12:16:11 :) Jul 15 12:18:51 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Accelerometer_Fundamentals]] [[General-purpose_buttons_%28side-mounted%29]] [[Extra_battery]] [[Talk:OpenMoko_under_QEMU_on_MacOSX]] [[Wishlist:Unlikely]] [[Wish_List_-_Hardware]] [[Wishlist:Expansion_Protocols]] [[Wishlist:Expansion_Back]] and other changes Jul 15 12:20:21 the only useful thing i see an accelerometer doing is Jul 15 12:20:44 switching from landscape -> portrait and portrait -> landscape when you tilt the phone Jul 15 12:20:45 haha Jul 15 12:20:53 There are many more. Jul 15 12:21:23 Consider for example the movement starting with the phone in its holster, and ending up at your ear in the correct orientation to talk. Jul 15 12:21:51 It's quite plausible that it might be distinctive enough to work as 'answer phone'. Jul 15 12:22:07 Also - light-sabre noises. Jul 15 12:22:14 yes that too Jul 15 12:22:15 :) Jul 15 12:23:18 i swear i could cry, im looking at AT&T 3g coverage area Jul 15 12:23:48 and it begins just a half mile from my house and goes all the way to my school Jul 15 12:23:58 ossman: are you conscious? Jul 15 12:24:23 how much does a 3g laptop modem cost? Jul 15 12:25:41 dilinger, somewhat. vacation. higher brain functions will return in four weeks :) Jul 15 12:26:22 isn't ungodly early/late over there, btw? Jul 15 12:26:37 ossman: nothing requiring higher brain functions; i was just curious if you had an openmoko, and if so whether SD actually worked for you Jul 15 12:26:56 yea, it's also ungodly humid and warm; i can't sleep in this kind of weather Jul 15 12:27:07 yes, and yes Jul 15 12:27:16 ok, perhaps not ungodly warm, but uncomfortably so Jul 15 12:27:24 haven't tested the latest build though Jul 15 12:27:40 ossman: do you remember which kernel? Jul 15 12:28:00 uImage-2.6.21.1-moko10-r0_0_1883_0-fic-gta01.bin Jul 15 12:28:18 ok, so fairly recent Jul 15 12:28:29 I have only tested the card I got with it though Jul 15 12:28:39 I don't have that large collection of microsd Jul 15 12:29:30 we have one or two others at the office, but the one that came with it is giving me trouble; in uboot, it spit out some read errors when i was reading a rootfs.jffs2 off of it, and in linux mount is failing Jul 15 12:29:54 might just be a bad card Jul 15 12:30:01 what error do you get in dmesg? Jul 15 12:30:17 something i just noticed, is there any way to explicitly clear the whole entered number on the dialer? i can only seem to clear 1 digit at a time Jul 15 12:31:49 hi all what is the status of the dialer? can i dial yet or receive a call? Jul 15 12:31:51 <6>yaffs: dev is 266338305 name is "mmcblk0p1" Jul 15 12:31:51 <4>yaffs: Attempting MTD mount on 254.1, "mmcblk0p1" Jul 15 12:31:54 nothing really useful there Jul 15 12:32:02 mount: Mounting /dev/mmcblk0p1 on /t failed: No such device Jul 15 12:32:36 you trying to go via block-to-mtd? Jul 15 12:33:26 tim: i'm just using the emulator, so i don't know if it fully works properly. though it seems to be dialing - but since nobody is there its not very useful - haha Jul 15 12:34:06 ossman: mount /dev/mmcblk0p1 /t -t ext2 Jul 15 12:34:40 dilinger, I'm off to congratulate my brother on being one year closer to being an old fart. I'll be back later if you're unable to sort it out yourself Jul 15 12:34:59 ossman: ok, enjoy Jul 15 12:35:05 * ossman & Jul 15 12:36:01 i suppose setting up a toolchain and sprinkling some printks around would help immensely Jul 15 12:39:57 mickey|slides: master? Jul 15 12:43:07 huh, that worked Jul 15 12:43:36 interesting. attempting to mount as ext2 doesn't work, ext3 is required (i just added a journal) Jul 15 12:47:04 speaking of mounting and sd cards and whatnot, has anyone made an OpenMoko media player yet? ;) Jul 15 12:49:18 is there no linux driver at all for the smedia or just a closed source one available right now? Jul 15 12:49:42 MangoFusion: aplay'ing stuff off the SD card works ;p Jul 15 12:50:12 NDAd Jul 15 12:50:18 AIUI. Jul 15 12:50:35 neat Jul 15 12:50:42 The only driver available is an internal FIC one - they've just got it acting as a dumb frabebuffer as of last reports. Jul 15 12:50:58 framebuffer Jul 15 12:51:01 so there is no driver right now Jul 15 12:51:25 * Stephmw likes dumb framebuffers Jul 15 12:51:32 i had been wondering whether there would be a stop gap closed source one until fic get theirs up to speed but apparently, no Jul 15 12:52:58 is there some sort of special dance i should be doing to make the mic work? i'm testng it out with arecord, but it doesn't seem to be capturing anything Jul 15 12:53:02 I don't know - it's just what - IIRC - ro h - said on IRC. Jul 15 12:53:16 dilinger: the magic setting of the eleventy-one mixers. Jul 15 12:53:40 SpeedEvil: well maybe smedia intended it to tbe a winmobile part and figured fic would write a linux driver for them for free ;) Jul 15 12:53:48 dilinger: /etc/sound/alsa* or somewhere may have the appropriate mixers. Jul 15 12:53:52 settings Jul 15 12:53:59 It's in the wiki somewhere. Jul 15 12:56:15 mhh mark shuttleworth is looking at building a free software laptop. another project for fic, maybe... Jul 15 12:56:35 ah :) Jul 15 12:58:49 I'm surprised that nobody has looked up the feedback of the ebay-neo1973 seller. Jul 15 12:58:53 _run_away_ Jul 15 12:58:57 Yes - it's 100% Jul 15 12:59:13 But, the only recent transactions are in the last week or two. Jul 15 12:59:19 And there are only two of them. Jul 15 12:59:27 And they are for a total value of $40 Jul 15 12:59:38 With a two year gap since the last activity. Jul 15 13:00:05 IOW - very, very likely to be a taken-over-account. Jul 15 13:01:46 thus why i never use ebay Jul 15 13:02:54 SpeedEvil: i'm assuming you're referring to one of the /etc/alsa/capture{head,hand}set.state files? i'm having no luck with either of those Jul 15 13:03:10 yes Jul 15 13:03:19 I dunno - I've not got hardware. Jul 15 13:03:47 free software laptop? neat Jul 15 13:04:28 alright, thanks anyway Jul 15 13:10:49 MangoFusion: Ebay is just a venue. Jul 15 13:10:58 You have to be careful as you would with any. Jul 15 13:11:38 The tools ebay has - feedback, communication with seller, all help if used properly. Jul 15 13:13:13 I've got around 250 transactions on ebay - mostly buys - and have had one problem - and that was with someone I let use my account to buy stuff not being careful. (and that was resolved by paypal refunding). Jul 15 13:14:35 a friend of mine lost 1000 eur or something Jul 15 13:14:46 i bet he won't use ebay anymore Jul 15 13:15:19 On what? Jul 15 13:15:37 There are riskier categories. Jul 15 13:15:58 Buy new shiny expensive stuff, and you're where all the fraudsters are. Jul 15 13:16:06 Buy old sofas and it's less risky. Jul 15 13:20:31 (script) openmoko-community: Werner Almesberger Re: well, that didn't take long Jul 15 13:22:05 above is about the ebay sale. Jul 15 13:24:00 what kind of 3g is most common? Jul 15 13:24:09 UMTS(#GSM)? Jul 15 13:24:17 UMTS(3GSM)? Jul 15 13:25:20 hello Jul 15 13:25:33 pls. help me with qemu on ubuntu 4.04 CZ Jul 15 13:26:04 SpeedEvil: true, though a bit too dodgy for me ;) Jul 15 13:26:19 tomeff, 4.04?!?! Jul 15 13:26:27 ssry 7.04 Jul 15 13:26:32 lol Jul 15 13:27:16 *pls. help me with qemu on ubuntu 7.04 CZ Jul 15 13:27:54 got it working fine on qemu here Jul 15 13:29:14 albeit slow Jul 15 13:29:22 (hope it isn't that slow on real hardware) Jul 15 13:29:41 make send err Jul 15 13:30:00 .... Jul 15 13:30:04 block-qcow2.c:2250: warning: excess elements in struct initializer Jul 15 13:30:08 block-qcow2.c:2250: warning: (near initialization for ‘bdrv_qcow2’) Jul 15 13:30:08 block-qcow2.c:2251: error: unknown field ‘bdrv_get_info’ specified in initializer Jul 15 13:30:08 block-qcow2.c:2251: warning: excess elements in struct initializer Jul 15 13:30:08 block-qcow2.c:2251: warning: (near initialization for ‘bdrv_qcow2’) Jul 15 13:30:08 make: *** [qemu-img] Error 1 Jul 15 13:30:09 tomas@tomas-desktop:~/qemu-neo1973$ Jul 15 13:30:53 tomeff: please use pastebin (e.g. pastebin.ca) Jul 15 13:31:09 Kensan: ok Jul 15 13:34:01 MrFeetio: depends where you are. Jul 15 13:34:18 are you using gcc 3.3? Jul 15 13:36:38 http://pastebin.ca/620389 Jul 15 13:39:53 tomeff: what's your gcc version? Jul 15 13:40:29 Kensan: wait Jul 15 13:42:05 4.1.2 Jul 15 13:44:18 When I send YES_I_DO, do I get a confirmation? :-/ Jul 15 13:44:48 doesn't seem so Jul 15 13:45:21 tomeff: AFAIK, you need gcc 3.*. Jul 15 13:45:33 Hm, ok. :-) Jul 15 13:49:09 tomeff: Yep Kensan is right you can install gcc-3 at the same time as 4 though so it isn't a problem Jul 15 13:49:12 i installing (gcc 3.3 and 3.4 Jul 15 13:49:16 (I'm on Feisty as well) Jul 15 13:49:31 3.4 is all you need Jul 15 13:50:10 tomeff: for further info check the wiki: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/OpenMoko_under_QEMU and http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Talk:OpenMoko_under_QEMU Jul 15 13:53:21 http://pastebin.ca/620415 Jul 15 14:00:48 Did you "./configure"? Jul 15 14:05:26 yes Jul 15 14:10:30 jpozlovsky: cus Jul 15 14:12:22 tomeff: hi :) Jul 15 14:13:27 jpozlovsky: pros nejsi na icq? Jul 15 14:16:10 'allo Jul 15 14:44:01 to use the USB host mode on the GTA01B_v4, we need to connect self-powered USB devices? Jul 15 14:45:04 yes, or you need to use a powered USB hub Jul 15 14:45:16 thanks Jul 15 14:45:18 or inject power Jul 15 14:45:33 with a special home-made cable Jul 15 14:47:44 i saw this look and feel page in the wiki, http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Look_%26_Feel; is it possible to use landscape view on this application area with GTK programming? Jul 15 14:48:58 mbuf: i think this is more a xrandr stuff Jul 15 14:49:14 i think so. in the "ninja" video was the view turned for 90degree Jul 15 14:49:44 ok Jul 15 14:56:35 Many self-powered devices will not talk to a totally unpowered host. Jul 15 14:56:55 They use the 5V line - not unreasonably - to detect the presence of a host. Jul 15 15:02:09 neo would be a great all-in-one device with the gps and a maemo-mapper port Jul 15 15:02:26 to take it on a trip without power handy, i wanted to use a solar panel or crank charger Jul 15 15:02:37 If only openstreetmap was decent. Jul 15 15:02:39 neo won't charge from either of those Jul 15 15:02:45 It will. Jul 15 15:02:54 500mA? Jul 15 15:03:08 If it has a USB output. It requires one line of script to get it to charge at 500mA Jul 15 15:03:20 even from non-approved chargers. Jul 15 15:03:33 I've tried it... :) so where is this one line? Jul 15 15:03:59 Sorry, I'm going by hearsay, I haven't had a device. Jul 15 15:04:11 maemo mapper is excellent for topo and sat maps so it's perfect for hiking/camping Jul 15 15:04:36 maemomapper rocks Jul 15 15:05:12 koen: howdy Jul 15 15:05:20 after converting its gpx to kml you can do stuff like this: http://linuxtogo.org/~koen/Edinburgh-walk.jpg Jul 15 15:05:26 bmidgley: hi Jul 15 15:06:43 cool :) I did something similar with plotting out my snowboarding day Jul 15 15:06:54 walking tour? Jul 15 15:07:08 looks sort of off-road Jul 15 15:07:23 koen: not used it - is that directly with maemo-mapper, or using google-earth or something? Jul 15 15:07:52 maemo mapper saves in gpx... use gpsbabel to translate to kml then plot in GE Jul 15 15:08:00 Right. Jul 15 15:08:41 bmidgley: walking tour Jul 15 15:08:41 Comments on a basic tracking application page welcome. http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Openstreetmap Jul 15 15:08:55 a neo would be easier to manage on a hike than gps+n800+cell Jul 15 15:09:25 This is seperate from a view map page - it's a very minimal app intended for most users to install. Jul 15 15:11:15 koen: Cool :) Jul 15 15:11:24 neat Jul 15 15:11:57 koen: was the walk in just one day? you must have been tired Jul 15 15:17:32 or stupid ;) Jul 15 15:19:33 SpeedEvil: I'm digging around in etc/ to see if charging control happens here... nothing so far Jul 15 15:20:54 maybe controlled through /proc Jul 15 15:22:46 or looking for beer Jul 15 15:23:17 wow neo runs pulseaudio Jul 15 15:27:41 pulseaudio? Jul 15 15:27:58 ah right Jul 15 15:32:25 I've been wishing we could drop alsa bindings for bluetooth audio Jul 15 15:32:30 but not everyone runs pulse Jul 15 15:32:35 at least neo does :) Jul 15 15:33:44 anyone know if there is GSM coverage in Vancouver? Jul 15 15:34:11 i was wondering about audio. considering there doesn't appear to be a headphone port, am i going to have to rely on bluetooth headphones? *shudders* Jul 15 15:34:24 there is a headphone jack Jul 15 15:34:25 2.5mm headset port Jul 15 15:34:32 2.5mm stereo + mic (4-conductor) Jul 15 15:34:34 can be converted with an adaptor. Jul 15 15:35:07 really? Jul 15 15:35:09 there are two common ways to wire up the 4-conductors. neo uses the one that is different from palm Jul 15 15:35:10 Which are _cheap_ on ebay Jul 15 15:35:13 neat Jul 15 15:36:08 the included headset is really comfortable Jul 15 15:38:12 didn't quite see it on the promo shots Jul 15 15:38:14 ;) Jul 15 15:40:27 ewon: yes, with rogers/fido Jul 15 15:40:34 excellent Jul 15 15:40:46 employer might be sending me to Vancouver instead of Los Angeles Jul 15 15:40:57 oh? Jul 15 15:41:12 I'm currently based in Ireland Jul 15 15:41:19 supposed to be moving to LA next month Jul 15 15:41:30 vancouver is nice Jul 15 15:41:32 but now they're thinking of sending me to Vancouver instead Jul 15 15:41:44 i quite like it there. Jul 15 15:41:53 cool Jul 15 15:42:14 a couple or three times a year i'm out there on business, and i always wish i could stay longer Jul 15 15:42:33 it's probably less insane than LA Jul 15 15:42:40 without a doubt Jul 15 15:42:49 even rush hour isn't all that bad Jul 15 15:47:36 ewon: where in ireland are you? I lived in Greystone (Co. Wicklow, 30m S of dublin) for eight onths Jul 15 15:47:55 jadams: I'm based in Drogheda, work in Dublin city centre Jul 15 15:48:13 fun...I miss Ireland, planning on going back for a few months to work sometime soon Jul 15 15:48:20 I'm just a programmer, so I can work anywhere... Jul 15 15:48:25 me too Jul 15 15:48:34 once I get this phone and a bt fabric keyboard, it'll be literally anywhere :) Jul 15 15:48:37 never worked outside of Ireland before Jul 15 15:48:52 jadams: sounds messy :) Jul 15 15:52:33 sounds like a great idea, except the screen's going to be too darn small ;) Jul 15 16:06:05 You need to add a loupe, and baseball cap with velcro on the front. Jul 15 16:06:34 Wear the loupe, attach the neo to the front of the bill. Jul 15 16:08:18 uh Jul 15 16:13:23 SpeedEvil: I'm there Jul 15 16:13:55 I NEED a way to hook up one of the micro-optical displays Jul 15 16:14:04 SpeedEvil: perhaps said cap should also have a propeller? :) Jul 15 16:14:05 I'd start wearing glasses again :) Jul 15 16:19:11 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Java]] [[Openstreetmap]] [[Category:GPS]] [[Hammerhead/Protocol]] [[Hardware:AGPS]] [[Gpsd]] [[GPS_Navigation]] [[GPS]] [[GPS_Connection_Status]] Jul 15 16:20:19 this guy selling 4 neos on ebay lives just 50 miles from here Jul 15 16:20:22 want i should go beat him up Jul 15 16:20:58 I really doubt he does. Jul 15 16:21:19 I am fairly certain that it's simply an account takeover some couple of weeks ago. Jul 15 16:21:20 Sounds more like a job for MokoNinja ;) Jul 15 16:21:21 it's just capitalism at work, someone saw it on slashdot, predicted it would sell out and therefore that market forces dictate the price is too low, so he's trying to be a middle-man Jul 15 16:21:31 Look at the single low-value probe transaction. Jul 15 16:21:43 he's probably got ticket #3456 thinking he'll get them in the mail tomorrow Jul 15 16:21:51 the fact that teh account has been moderately inactive. Jul 15 16:21:58 That it's immediate payment only. Jul 15 16:22:10 It's an account takeover. Jul 15 16:22:16 He has no neos. (IMO) Jul 15 16:22:31 if he had any, he wouldn't be posting the press photos Jul 15 16:22:48 I mean - he hasn't even ordered them. Jul 15 16:24:40 Elrond: Have I missed anything out of category:GPS? Jul 15 16:32:43 dilinger, *pokey* Jul 15 16:33:27 yay I now have an order number Jul 15 16:38:27 What's it? Jul 15 16:46:37 hello all Jul 15 16:46:41 hi Jul 15 16:47:13 :) Jul 15 16:55:31 who know email DenisBY? Jul 15 16:55:32 stalkerg: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (and also SH1_FAQ, Neo1973, Developer_preview and Neo1973_Hardware#GTA01Bv4 pages) (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.) Jul 15 16:56:26 q. is it possible to video a flash video thru the web on the neo1973 ? Jul 15 16:57:18 in fact i have other questions as well :) Jul 15 16:57:41 i suspect you could run gnash on it Jul 15 16:57:56 which might be interesting Jul 15 16:58:03 ah true, the flash player is not compiled for this arch Jul 15 16:59:30 q. i have a program using 8mbyte of rss and 13mbyte of 'virtual memory' on linux, is that 'a lot' for a neo1973 ? Jul 15 17:00:06 i read in the specs that its got 128mb ram Jul 15 17:00:12 unless that's the flash Jul 15 17:00:23 all this different terminology confuses me ;) Jul 15 17:01:00 need write more soft... maybe comercial. Jul 15 17:01:35 MangoFusion: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Category:Neo1973_Hardware#RAM Jul 15 17:02:10 yeah i didn't look at that bit Jul 15 17:02:16 or at least i skimmed over it Jul 15 17:02:17 haha Jul 15 17:02:19 :) Jul 15 17:02:58 Kensan: do you know how much is still available, once it booted and is running ? Jul 15 17:03:34 hi i'm having problems with microSD ed a usb adapter..it cant see memory stick..any hint? Jul 15 17:04:22 i have the scsi-generic and scsi-disk built-in Jul 15 17:08:01 stalkerg: is it possible, according to the license, to run close source code on the neo1973 ? Jul 15 17:08:30 zorglu_, why not? you can run closed source on every box ;) Jul 15 17:08:30 MangoFusion: btw i just checked on gnash claims to be able to run flash video Jul 15 17:08:38 zorglu_: LGPL? Jul 15 17:09:18 Hi all! Jul 15 17:09:23 hi Jul 15 17:09:42 stalkerg: ? nope i meant, suppose i do a commercial code doing things, and would like to provide it for neo1973 users. can i do it (without providing the source i mean) Jul 15 17:09:47 I was interested in a particular manner in the openmoko project... Jul 15 17:10:14 What about openmoko & accessibility? Jul 15 17:10:30 SiO2: well the license may or may not prevent it :) Jul 15 17:11:21 the neo has closed source, the gsm ;) Jul 15 17:11:25 afaik Jul 15 17:11:29 I'll need to use the phone without totally seeing what's on the screen: will I at least be able to handle it via a shell accessible from the pc with some cables ? Jul 15 17:11:49 SiO2: yep but it is their stuff :) Jul 15 17:12:40 mrkiko: out of the blue from a beginner, as the phone run linux and got ethernet wifi, i guess sshd is available Jul 15 17:12:41 mrkiko: thinking about it, if you are blind you won't really be able to use it as there are no physical buttons for typing in numbers, and the touch screen does not provide tactile feedback Jul 15 17:12:47 if you have some closed source for your moko, it is no problem, and when other people install it why not. but it runs with os Jul 15 17:12:48 If someone can give me some hints it would be very apreciated - I'm also available to stressing tests and so on to help with this project. Jul 15 17:13:03 SiO2: ok Jul 15 17:13:17 MangoFusion: I wonder, though, if you could have it "speak" the number you dial on the dialer or something Jul 15 17:13:28 that would be an interesting idea Jul 15 17:13:39 mrkiko: ssh is possible over ethernet over usb, should be pretty out of the box (plug it in, ssh to the phone) Jul 15 17:13:53 MangoFusion: but what about audible feedback? Jul 15 17:14:09 zorglu_, i am not an developer yet :(, but it is logical. you have openhardware, and you can do what you want Jul 15 17:14:11 oh Jul 15 17:14:23 ethernet over usb is handled with rndis or something? Jul 15 17:14:26 SiO2: ok :) Jul 15 17:14:31 what soft realy need for OpenMoko?(for end users and developers) Jul 15 17:15:08 stalkerg, good and safe one ;) Jul 15 17:15:18 :) Jul 15 17:15:24 mrkiko: I remember something about usb gadget, but I am not exactly sure. Jul 15 17:15:46 alech: mhm... Jul 15 17:15:54 :? Jul 15 17:16:08 alech: but if there are no buttons aniway the phone may be very harmless for me to use Jul 15 17:16:16 *harmless=harmful* Jul 15 17:17:24 mrkiko: correct :( Apparently, there is only power and one 'AUX' button Jul 15 17:17:46 mrkiko: but that does not sound too user friendly for your scenario ... Jul 15 17:17:58 hm... need porting python and pygtk :) Jul 15 17:18:00 mrkiko, you can have enough "touchscreen"buttons ;) Jul 15 17:18:17 alech: the problem is that it would be beautiful for me to try that phone: I like to understand all those mechanisms in my linux box and so... Jul 15 17:18:24 python? for gentoo? ;) Jul 15 17:18:52 yes! porting portage too... :)))))))))))) Jul 15 17:18:59 alech. i was interested in understanding how the phone was organized... I would be affascinated to compile the phone's kernel :) Jul 15 17:19:59 mrkiko: sure, that's what's interesting for me, too ... Jul 15 17:20:28 mrkiko: and it would surely be quite interesting to find out if one could push accessibility better than a 'regular' phone ... Jul 15 17:20:50 mhm.. Jul 15 17:21:02 alech. with a keyboard probably it wouldn't be a problem. Jul 15 17:21:37 mrkiko: it seems to be possible to attach a bluetooth keyboard (or a USB keyboard using an active USB hub and a host cable) ... Jul 15 17:21:48 alech: aniway I needed a phone I could fully control without having to stick with gnokii & protocols and bluetooth timeouts Jul 15 17:21:52 alech, mrkiko:please read the wiki, particularly http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Building_OpenMoko_from_scratch Jul 15 17:22:02 Kensan: for what? Jul 15 17:22:36 You both said you were interested in compiling the kernel and understanding the phone. Jul 15 17:23:03 Kensan: thank you for the link Jul 15 17:23:04 Kensan: I've already successfully built it using MokoMakefile :) Jul 15 17:23:10 Kensan: thanks anyways ;-) Jul 15 17:23:39 alech: did you have the phone? Jul 15 17:23:44 alech, how many hours does it need? on my box it ist compiling since a lot of hours (2500XP) Jul 15 17:24:16 mrkiko: are you using a screen reader or a braille device? If the latter, I guess that could be attached to the Neo as well, making it probably pretty useful with a shell (I can now see why one would want to dial using the shell ;-) Jul 15 17:24:25 q. is there like an emulator of neo1973, to dev on 'normal' computer ? Jul 15 17:24:39 neo1973-qemu Jul 15 17:24:42 zorglu_: see wiki: Jul 15 17:24:58 SiO2: I didn't count, but it was quite a lot, too. At least two complete nights or so (although my VM stopped during the first night, so I don't know how much of the night it took) Jul 15 17:25:10 zorglu_: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ#Q:_Is_there_an_emulator_available_for_OpenMoko.3F Jul 15 17:25:21 ok thanks Jul 15 17:25:35 alech, :( Jul 15 17:25:48 Yes I'm using a braille display... Jul 15 17:26:06 but... to use the phone connecting it directly with the braille display I would need aniway to take down the X server Jul 15 17:26:17 or at least to switch to a terminal not controlled by it Jul 15 17:26:27 mrkiko: right, but that should be possible ... Jul 15 17:26:31 mrkiko, are you blind? Jul 15 17:26:43 SiO2: yes Jul 15 17:26:57 mrkiko: I guess one could even have a terminal contact book that you could use to dial Jul 15 17:27:00 alech. compiling brltty for the neo shouldn't be a problem aniway... Jul 15 17:27:36 i have some very reduced skills of C & ncurses... Jul 15 17:27:42 mrkiko: http://www.levelstar.com/ Jul 15 17:27:43 mrkiko, how you want use the phone? everytime with braille? Jul 15 17:28:19 SiO2: obviously not... Jul 15 17:28:21 mkrkiko: I believe I've seen some terminal based contact applications, they should be pretty easy to enhance to talk to gsmd to make the call Jul 15 17:28:35 SiO2: but... I need to use it with braille any time I want to read or send smses Jul 15 17:29:00 emacs + emacsspeak + festival lite Jul 15 17:29:03 merde, build openmoko failed :( Jul 15 17:29:09 anyways, I'll have to leave now. Good luck with the project, cu ... Jul 15 17:29:15 * mrkiko is going to http://www.levelstar.com/ Jul 15 17:29:52 bye alech Jul 15 17:31:06 mrkiko: adding GSM phone to the Icon is in the project plan. Jul 15 17:32:12 DukeOfUrl: interesting... Jul 15 17:32:19 DukeOfUrl: is italian supported in that product? Jul 15 17:32:40 DukeOfUrl: Obviously icon is closed-source, right? Jul 15 17:32:47 don't know. the company is here in Louisville Colorado Jul 15 17:32:56 no! OE Jul 15 17:33:10 openembedded Jul 15 17:33:31 oh Jul 15 17:33:42 the girl's voice in the address book audio demo is very nice! Jul 15 17:33:46 :) Jul 15 17:40:09 :) Jul 15 17:40:25 you buy the phone, you got the girl you know :) Jul 15 17:41:01 address book audio demo? Jul 15 17:41:02 where? Jul 15 17:41:39 Vegar: click on the Jul 15 17:41:43 "icon demo" Jul 15 17:41:45 link Jul 15 17:41:50 and then You get the lists of demos Jul 15 17:41:56 Where? Jul 15 17:43:10 Vegar: when you enter on the site, the default page Jul 15 17:43:20 you should clock the "skip to content" button Jul 15 17:43:37 then you will be put on the "Icon Audio Demo" link Jul 15 17:43:47 oh, levelstar.com Jul 15 17:43:50 I should read the backlog Jul 15 17:44:01 ah.. Jul 15 17:44:06 the name of the site is www.levelstar.com Jul 15 17:44:27 really nice voic. sh has to be blond ;) Jul 15 17:44:33 +e +e Jul 15 17:47:31 aniway... Jul 15 17:47:59 I hope some late models of the neo will have the keyboard :) Jul 15 17:48:05 I know it's very unlikely Jul 15 17:48:35 Hello. I understand the software is not yet usable , but is the hardware final? I mean, will there be any hardware updates any time soon? Jul 15 17:48:36 zamolxes: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (and also SH1_FAQ, Neo1973, Developer_preview and Neo1973_Hardware#GTA01Bv4 pages) (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.) Jul 15 17:48:51 :) Jul 15 17:48:55 botsnack Jul 15 17:49:03 heh Jul 15 17:49:06 but its right Jul 15 17:49:09 your answer is in the wiki Jul 15 17:50:27 i know it is, botsnack is a (acceptable) form of thank you :) Jul 15 17:50:48 http://nopaste.info/cb1286dd1d.html how can i resolve this problem ? Jul 15 17:51:12 aha! http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973#.22Phase_2.22_.28GTA02.2C_.22Mass_Market.22.29 I'll wait till october then Jul 15 17:52:17 http://www.heise.de/newsticker/meldung/92713 << hah.. German police officially uses (proprietary) gsm-devices to sniff and spy on citizens. Good advertizing for the neo :> Jul 15 17:53:13 Does exist a non-proprietary gsm-device? Jul 15 17:53:14 riot yes but the more power consume is a issue Jul 15 17:53:28 riot that should warn you Jul 15 17:53:43 riot, you will everytime read the sources? remember the problems with the javaanonymize from tu-dresden Jul 15 17:54:13 ow well Jul 15 17:54:36 woglinde: woot? On a neo, i just turn off the gsm -> less power consumption. Jul 15 17:54:43 everybody carries these devices which makes locating you 24/7 possible - at their own will Jul 15 17:54:55 phrozen77_, ow well, or orsen wells ( or so ;) ) Jul 15 17:54:58 phrozen77_: right. Frightening, isn't it? Jul 15 17:55:12 brainwashed, for sure Jul 15 17:55:23 SiO2: aah, i guess, you won't find real backdoors in a well checked linux kernel. Jul 15 17:55:45 also, i wonder how ppl could survive like 15 years ago Jul 15 17:55:52 without cellphones Jul 15 17:56:01 *cough* Jul 15 17:56:08 there were payphones everywhere Jul 15 17:57:42 riot, and when you use neo, you will be an "gefährder" :( Jul 15 17:57:52 heh Jul 15 17:57:59 schäuble will want to kill you Jul 15 17:58:07 youre gonna get executed Jul 15 17:58:09 publicly Jul 15 17:58:12 SiO2: thats it.. :/ Jul 15 17:58:29 phrozen77_, you understand "gefährder" ? are you german ? Jul 15 17:58:36 yup Jul 15 17:59:04 Funny thing is, schäuble is getting kicked in his ass right now, because everyone is slowly getting convinced that he's nuts.. Jul 15 17:59:18 he _is_ nuts Jul 15 17:59:24 or Jul 15 17:59:28 manic Jul 15 17:59:45 either way, _he_ should go to the psychic ward Jul 15 17:59:46 yet he became minister of interior... Tells me a lot about our funny democracy. Jul 15 17:59:52 but instead hes doing politics Jul 15 18:00:25 i was thinking long time, people with disabled bodys have a working brain, but schäuble... ( mrkiko nothing against disabled people) Jul 15 18:00:29 phrozen77_: have you read about the professor of psychology from TU Munich? He telediagnosed a psychosis... Jul 15 18:00:46 riot, on schäuble? Jul 15 18:00:49 SiO2: yes. Jul 15 18:00:53 merde Jul 15 18:01:08 SiO2, yeah, its not about being disabled - but somehow it also does something to his brain, obviously Jul 15 18:01:26 SiO2: because of the strike on him, which put him into the wheelchair. Jul 15 18:01:39 he's pretty manic about getting that law & trojan done Jul 15 18:01:39 riot no when you have a phone with the special police firmware Jul 15 18:01:58 And TU Munich (and also this particular professor) has a VERY high reputation... Jul 15 18:02:27 heh - nobody will kick his sorry ass outta the parlament, sadly Jul 15 18:02:35 i dont think thats going to happen Jul 15 18:02:42 riot, for this, you don't need to be a prof. you recognize by yourself Jul 15 18:02:48 indeed Jul 15 18:03:04 yes.. just by reading news everyday Jul 15 18:03:05 ehi! Listen to http://www.levelstar.net/audio/tutorials/stop_watch.mp3 Jul 15 18:03:09 She seems really happy! Jul 15 18:03:15 :) Jul 15 18:03:21 but Now I may go :) Jul 15 18:03:26 cd SrRaven Jul 15 18:03:31 oops Jul 15 18:03:35 lol Jul 15 18:03:39 cu MrFeetio Jul 15 18:03:40 arg Jul 15 18:03:43 mrkiko Jul 15 18:03:48 * SiO2 should be stupid to talk in english (my english isn't very well) to germanspeaker ;) Jul 15 18:04:03 phrozen77_: :) Jul 15 18:04:06 riot, do you have a link Jul 15 18:04:14 SiO2: to what? Jul 15 18:04:31 to this " have you read about the professor of psychology from TU Munich? He telediagnosed a psychosis.." Jul 15 18:09:02 * SrRaven hits georg__ with a "I'm not a folder sign" Jul 15 18:10:28 lol Jul 15 18:10:46 SiO2: hmmm.. i can't find it :/ perhaps our funny minister made it vanish... Jul 15 18:11:50 :( Jul 15 18:13:07 is ther soma page, where i can find problems with openmokomakefile? Jul 15 18:13:09 some Jul 15 18:19:31 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Hammerhead/Protocol]] [[Wishlist:Neo1973_P0_Review]] [[BuggyOrders]] [[Wish_List_-_Hardware]] Jul 15 18:41:31 ossman: hi. Are you there ? Jul 15 18:41:49 yup Jul 15 18:42:24 being curious, did you get any request for merging the s3cmci driver ? Jul 15 18:42:57 from? Jul 15 18:43:07 Thomas or Harald Jul 15 18:44:03 I asked them if there was an interest, and they said there was. And that's where we still are :) Jul 15 18:44:31 Ben said he could consider taking on the role of maintainer if samsung weren't interested Jul 15 18:45:20 ok. So things did not move :( Jul 15 18:45:51 the "problem" with Ben is that he's always overloaded so we won't see a request from him for 2.6.23 Jul 15 18:46:07 and he's busy with sdhci stuff iirc Jul 15 18:46:09 a common problem Jul 15 18:46:21 I've been trying to clean up the driver, but time is scarce Jul 15 18:47:30 hmm. a lot of cleanup ? iirc the driver was not so bad last time I've seen it Jul 15 18:48:58 no idea, I haven't had time to study it properly. I've just done some minor things so far Jul 15 18:49:11 e.g. it had a bit strange debug message handling Jul 15 18:49:40 yeah, that's mainly why it's not merged yet afaik Jul 15 18:50:23 that, and that noone has actually requested to have it merged ;) Jul 15 18:51:02 what is used to encrypt the neo's file system? Jul 15 18:51:05 Thomas did it long time ago on rmk's pts and rmk refused it because of the debug message stuff Jul 15 18:51:15 neo's fs is gonna be encrypted? Jul 15 18:52:03 i thought so? Jul 15 18:52:13 or at least parts of it i would hope Jul 15 18:53:07 what parts? why is that beneficial? Jul 15 18:53:30 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/OpenMoko#Flash Jul 15 18:53:50 because i don't want my data being looked at if my phone is stolen Jul 15 18:54:52 I thought there was some pretty substantial overhead for encryption? Jul 15 18:55:04 Hello, is it possible to use GTA01's USB controller without having neo advanced? Any available user-made port adapter... Jul 15 18:56:11 webjames: looks like it's only between bootloader and flash though... Jul 15 18:57:07 summatusmentis, http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/PIM_Storage#Goals_.26_Objectives Jul 15 18:57:20 mmp: I thought you just need a standard mini-usb male to usb female adapter. Jul 15 18:58:00 mmp: the appropriate cable. Jul 15 18:58:11 Which is not a common one. Jul 15 18:58:17 pH5: ahaa, could be... . I have not looked into datasheets yet... Jul 15 18:58:22 It needs to break out the 5V to a seperate supply. Jul 15 18:59:22 webjames: hrm.. interesting Jul 15 18:59:50 SpeedEvil: hmm, sounds feasible, I guess I should blow out dust from soldering iron:) Jul 15 18:59:56 i don't know if it's anything more than just an idea, i was just wondering if anyone had any thoughts on how? Jul 15 19:02:37 webjames: encrypted loopback file on external card should be trivial Jul 15 19:03:16 webjames: encrypting the internal filesystem is harder, because you'd lose wear leveling if you layered anything below jffs2 Jul 15 19:03:49 it's really only the ext card that data would be held on Jul 15 19:07:41 shipping $70? yikes Jul 15 19:08:22 MangoFusion: be happy it's not USD 169 Jul 15 19:08:28 haha true :) Jul 15 19:09:39 in any case he requirement of a credit card has more or less hit the nail in the coffin Jul 15 19:09:49 ;) Jul 15 19:10:09 MangoFusion: you can ask a friend to pay for you, and wire transfer the amount to him when the shipping is confirmed Jul 15 19:10:23 Or paypal to him Jul 15 19:10:25 MangoFusion: it's a win for both, since he would get the money in advance Jul 15 19:12:06 could do yes, though i am thinking now its probably just best to wait for some UK retail outlet or more payment options to arise with GTA02 Jul 15 19:12:18 haha Jul 15 19:32:33 ugh Jul 15 19:32:41 no viewsvn, only viewcvs? :( Jul 15 19:33:01 o is it called websvn Jul 15 19:35:51 webjames: about jffs2 and encryption - this might be of interest: http://lkml.org/lkml/2007/3/6/137, http://www.inf.u-szeged.hu/jffs2/compression.php Jul 15 19:38:05 Kensan, thank you Jul 15 20:01:47 counter? Jul 15 20:01:47 (last update 2007-07-14 16:40) http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter : Order https://direct.openmoko.com/ ; Shipping prob. 65% in a day 15:58:07 (1.665±1.0 days) (1742;246) Jul 15 20:02:09 are we still looking at shipping tomorrow w/wait time = shipping selection? Jul 15 20:11:32 counter? Jul 15 20:11:32 (last update 2007-07-14 16:40) http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter : Order https://direct.openmoko.com/ ; Shipping prob. 65% in a day 15:48:22 (1.659±1.0 days) (1743;247) Jul 15 20:19:11 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Wish_List]] [[Flashing_openmoko]] [[P1_Owners]] Jul 15 20:24:52 wao, the dependencies to built openmoko is a steep hill to climb :-) Jul 15 20:55:25 counter? Jul 15 20:55:26 (last update 2007-07-14 16:40) http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter : Order https://direct.openmoko.com/ ; Shipping prob. 65% in a day 15:04:29 (1.628±1.0 days) (1744;248) Jul 15 20:56:19 is one supposed to get a confirmation once they reply YES_I_DO? Jul 15 20:58:55 orospakr, apparently not. Jul 15 20:59:00 but you get an error message if you botch it Jul 15 20:59:06 galexande: ah, good. Jul 15 20:59:11 good enough, anyway. Jul 15 21:04:37 hope they'll ship them tommorow :) Jul 15 21:07:20 ynezz: I think it's more likely they'll take the whole day actually processing the orders, and start shipping the next day... (and I hope they ship till Tuesday ;-) ) Jul 15 21:08:24 Anyone seen ph5? Jul 15 21:08:31 I wonder how long the $12 shipping will take. Jul 15 21:08:42 can't be *that* bad, going from California to Ottawa. Jul 15 21:08:48 Elrond: yeah, occasionally Jul 15 21:09:46 Huh. Jul 15 21:09:49 pH5 - Hi! :-) Jul 15 21:14:26 nite Jul 15 21:28:36 note that I got a non-automatic email answer on a sunday from @openmoko.com with Date: 'Sun, 15 Jul 2007 12:28:50 +0200' so there is some overtime in the order department :) Jul 15 21:34:31 (script) planet: Koen Kooi: Back from Bossaconference http://dominion.kabel.utwente.nl/koen/cms/back-from-bossaconference Jul 15 21:52:17 anyone know if rogers in canada will/can support this gsm phone? Jul 15 21:52:18 superbnerb: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (and also SH1_FAQ, Neo1973, Developer_preview and Neo1973_Hardware#GTA01Bv4 pages) (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.) Jul 15 21:52:46 can? sure (gsm, after all) Jul 15 21:52:56 will? they won't help you with it Jul 15 21:53:55 superbnerb: do rogers give you sim cards? I know fido (rogers owned) do Jul 15 21:54:04 and fido have better deals anyway imo Jul 15 21:54:16 although I haven't looked at data plans Jul 15 21:54:50 i've heard they have sim cards, from BB. i just don't know about buying a phone that isn't theirs and how "antsy" they'd be about letting me use it on their network. Jul 15 21:54:52 they all suck Jul 15 21:54:59 anrp: they do :( Jul 15 21:55:01 but disregarding that, gsm is very standardized Jul 15 21:55:11 if you are a canadian, you know what i mean. Jul 15 21:55:24 telecomms providers in north america seem to suck in general. Paying to receive a call? wtf? Jul 15 21:55:28 they have no say on what gsm phone you use on the network Jul 15 21:55:40 i don't know of any gsm network operator that actually prohibits specific devices Jul 15 21:55:43 superbnerb: I'm not sure they'd know. Jul 15 21:56:02 now cdma, sure, but thats cause they have that power over you (for activation) Jul 15 21:56:07 but gsm is just the sim Jul 15 21:56:42 anrp: ahhh, ok, i've always dealt with cdma vendors... which explains the attitude Jul 15 21:57:11 hmm, so what gets "activated" on gsm networks? Jul 15 21:57:25 The SIM Jul 15 21:57:27 ie; why do I pay $35 when I buy a phone from t-mobile? Jul 15 21:57:36 you can swap it between phones Jul 15 21:57:37 (besides that I'm a sucker) Jul 15 21:57:46 so are all 338 users here developers of software for the phone? or is this mostly a user community, who is anxiously awaiting the launch of the commercial version. Jul 15 21:57:50 Qwell: lol. Jul 15 21:57:54 or you pay for the phone Jul 15 21:58:07 superbnerb: ues Jul 15 21:58:07 superbnerb: some mix of both, no doubt Jul 15 21:59:06 * Kero *will be* a developer of software for the phone, once he has the phone :) Jul 15 21:59:19 Kero: That's what qemu is for :p Jul 15 22:00:03 technically, yes. But not enticing enough. Jul 15 22:00:33 that's my next question. if i got this hot idea for a software that people can download for money, that is allowed on this phone correct? i.e. the licsense won't disallow capitalism will it? Jul 15 22:01:19 superbnerb: as long as you follow the licenses of everything you link against, I imagine Jul 15 22:04:07 superbnerb: there is no single license. as long as you don't want to cheat the license of someone *else's* code, it's allowed. Jul 15 22:04:14 (which is always the case with open source.) Jul 15 22:04:54 hmm, what's the deal with the openmoko TM? Is there one? Jul 15 22:05:31 say, will this box have python or something cool like that in it? Jul 15 22:06:06 cool being ruby, python.... or will coding be limited to c or C++ to start? Jul 15 22:06:53 Hardware question: some time ago, I saw on the mailing list someone worried that starting up the phone without anything in the SIM slot might cause a short. One of the devs said he would look at it, but I never saw a followup. Jul 15 22:07:27 Would it be possible to use the phone without a SIM (for developing without having to take the SIM off my Razr all the time)? Jul 15 22:07:38 I've used mine without a SIM. Seems fine. Jul 15 22:07:48 cjb: cool Jul 15 22:08:23 (now I'm wondering whether the _Razr_ will work without the SIM...) Jul 15 22:08:38 The Razr doesn't work *with* a SIM :) Jul 15 22:09:50 Qwell: it makes and receives calls. It sends and receives SMS (already more than the neo currently does). It has J2ME (which crashes the phone a lot, true). And, most important of all, it has bluetooth and is GSM. Jul 15 22:10:38 superbnerb: someone put Ruby on it; and otherwise me or someone else will do that :) Jul 15 22:10:49 and I think quite a bit of Python is already being used Jul 15 22:10:59 Nah, Lua is a better choice, with its ridiculously tiny runtime Jul 15 22:11:18 sh+awk is all you need :p Jul 15 22:11:41 * cesarb has a friend who is all excited to put Lua in the phone and make bindings for everything on it, so he could control the whole phone with a few Lua scripts Jul 15 22:11:49 if footprint were the only consideration... Jul 15 22:12:10 Granted, that's because we already use Lua at work (heck, we work with the guy who *named* the Lua language) Jul 15 22:12:40 hello Jul 15 22:12:50 named it? That's not Roberto? Jul 15 22:13:26 I have OpenMoko running in QEMU Jul 15 22:13:51 sometimes there is no clickable area to get the keyboard in the upper left Jul 15 22:13:58 how can i get this? Jul 15 22:14:18 or, how can i get the keyboard? Jul 15 22:14:39 if you're running it in qemu, you can add a fake USB keyboard Jul 15 22:15:15 how? Jul 15 22:15:23 thanks Kero, u a developer or something for the phone? Jul 15 22:15:29 Kero: I mean the guy who suggested the name "Lua" for the language Jul 15 22:18:21 the strange thing is, sometimes there is an area to click so i get a onscreen keyboard, sometimes it isn't Jul 15 22:18:51 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[How_to_run_OpenMoko_Apps_on_PC]] [[OpenMokoFramework]] Jul 15 22:19:39 cesarb: I absolutely forgot who named Lua :) Jul 15 22:20:44 counter! Jul 15 22:20:51 strange name Jul 15 22:21:01 hm, the script does not like the !... Jul 15 22:21:02 counter Jul 15 22:21:02 (last update 2007-07-14 16:40) http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter : Order https://direct.openmoko.com/ ; Shipping prob. 65% in a day 13:38:52 (1.569±1.0 days) (1745;248) Jul 15 22:24:07 i'll tri Xoo http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Getting_Openmoko_working_on_host_with_Xoo Jul 15 22:33:43 ok good night Jul 15 22:44:04 build exploding with this: http://pastebin.ca/621091 Jul 15 22:52:13 make quemu is failing with http://www.pastebin.ca/621102 Jul 15 22:59:10 dcordes: install lynx Jul 15 22:59:43 dcordes: the step which downloads the images needs lynx and wget Jul 15 23:01:29 brrr cold this morning Jul 15 23:01:39 time to get an openmoko! Jul 15 23:01:44 ...not that i know how that'll help Jul 15 23:02:08 anrp: as an embedded device, I hope it *doesn't* get hot. Jul 15 23:02:13 D; Jul 15 23:02:26 even assuming it flattens the battery in 1 hour thats still only 5W or so Jul 15 23:02:29 put an amd cpu in it and it will Jul 15 23:02:30 right. there have been enough burnt crotches from overheating macbooks Jul 15 23:02:48 now if it shorts the battery it might explode Jul 15 23:02:51 that would get hot :o Jul 15 23:03:16 * Stephmw winces Jul 15 23:03:19 i built a simple load tester here, just a couple pieces of nichrome Jul 15 23:03:37 cesarb, cheers Jul 15 23:03:40 overclock the GTA01 Jul 15 23:03:41 but i'm pushing 25A through two of them at 12v, for 50a@12v, or 600w of heat Jul 15 23:03:45 * anrp basks in soothing red glow Jul 15 23:04:15 nichrome is neat stuff Jul 15 23:05:44 .. it also melts the connector, but that's a minor detail Jul 15 23:05:46 can I use usb with qemu? Jul 15 23:05:53 use in what way? Jul 15 23:06:01 if you mean as a device, yes Jul 15 23:06:12 as a host.. not so sure Jul 15 23:06:21 either way though its a bit convoluted Jul 15 23:06:24 like using host attached usb device in the emulator Jul 15 23:06:35 that.. not sure Jul 15 23:07:47 qemu does support it but a) afaik only tested on x86 and b) huge slowdown Jul 15 23:07:55 as in x86 emulated guest Jul 15 23:17:33 so i have qemu, now what do i emulate inside? i.e. where' s the link to the dev kit? Jul 15 23:19:27 that is .. a very vague question Jul 15 23:19:48 when one doesn't know what to ask, you be vague. lol Jul 15 23:20:20 i found the wiki entry for qemu Jul 15 23:20:22 thanks boss Jul 15 23:22:46 the icon for the input manager is missing for me Jul 15 23:22:46 ~_~ Jul 15 23:22:47 :/ Jul 15 23:22:49 * anrp continues being unhelpful Jul 15 23:24:01 superbnerb: have you looked at the MokoMakefile wiki entry? Jul 15 23:24:40 superbnerb: it explains how to get the dev environment up and running, including with qemu Jul 15 23:26:47 superbnerb: I'm doing just that at the moment (building with MokoMakefile). As a long time LFS user I must say I find that build system very smooth ! Jul 15 23:36:23 just out of curiosity, has anyone thought about making a livecd release of some operating system that has the openmoko development environment already set up? Jul 15 23:37:16 it makes no sense at this point i think, but feel free to make one :) Jul 15 23:37:53 cibomahto, I would be interested in such a project Jul 15 23:40:35 I tend to agree it wouldnt be too useful, but might be useful for someone who just wants to see what the state of the system looks like. Jul 15 23:41:37 i have a lot of studying to do just to get comfortable with the openembedded enviroment, i think i'll hold off for a while on attempting to make one Jul 15 23:42:35 dcordes: do you have any experiance with making live cd distributions? Jul 15 23:43:15 vmware image would be handy also Jul 15 23:43:15 cibomahto, no Jul 15 23:44:11 vmware is easier then livecd i think, but customizing knoppix for example wouldn't be hard also Jul 15 23:44:45 and vmware can be run virtualy anywhere Jul 15 23:46:13 ynezz: I was thinking a live cd so that it could be used under qemu Jul 15 23:47:27 problem with vmware is... no ppc support Jul 15 23:51:06 or, more to the point might be just to make some instructions on running a qemu image without setting up the rest of the environment Jul 15 23:51:37 since the dev environment is probably going to be changing fairly rapidly Jul 15 23:53:16 cibomahto what about providing a chroot-image? Jul 15 23:53:33 ..which could also be build for ppc Jul 15 23:53:43 if you want to Jul 15 23:54:46 cibomahto right, I can get one for x86 ready until tomorrow (including webspace and bandwidth) Jul 15 23:54:49 how can I set qemu up to make openmoko use host's internet connection? Jul 15 23:55:29 dcordes http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/OpenMoko_under_QEMU#Setting_up_USB_connection Jul 15 23:55:38 tanks Jul 15 23:57:23 kristian: cool, do you know how that works with if your underlying system isn't the same? I run x86-64, thats why i was thinking an emulated enviroment Jul 15 23:57:43 obviously, im only one examle :-) Jul 15 23:57:49 *example Jul 15 23:58:54 cibomahto hmm it could work - if the local kernel is not used directly in the build process, i guess Jul 15 23:59:58 kristian-m: of course, one could always use a live-cd or vmware enviroment to load the chroot enviroment Jul 16 00:00:24 kristian-m: and i'm going to guess x86 is probably the most popular way to go Jul 16 00:05:23 cibomahto it would just be a beta - and I'll first have to create a describing /etc/motd, have to delete my password hashes and create a fs to copy it to... Jul 16 00:07:43 kristian-M: so, what would will you put in the environment? I guess my goal was to have something that didn't require 10 hours of compiling to poke around in Jul 16 00:09:25 kristian-m: I'm not sure if that was what you had in mind or not. Jul 16 00:10:03 cibomahto I just finished the 10h trip - actually after trying it again in a chroot as I had some trouble last night with the new glibc verion on my hostsystem Jul 16 00:11:11 cibomahto so everythin is up and running here - and everything provided by the mokomake makefile should be compiled Jul 16 00:12:53 kristian-m: ok, that sounds about right, unless we are missing something and this can just be downloaded from the openmoko system somehow Jul 16 00:13:50 okay, then i'll start now Jul 16 00:16:47 kristian-m: cool Jul 16 00:18:51 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Application_UI_Design_Recommendations]] [[How_to_run_OpenMoko_Apps_on_PC]] [[Wishlist:Unlikely]] [[Hardware:AGPS]] Jul 16 00:19:02 The gui is very stylish. Jul 16 00:19:10 how do guys Jul 16 00:19:24 I managed to stay off IRC all weekend.. well until now Jul 16 00:20:02 it monday dude Jul 16 00:20:11 +is Jul 16 00:20:34 miip: in some parts of the world, anyway Jul 16 00:20:41 ;) Jul 16 00:21:04 yeah, but still the weekend as I've not slept yet :) Jul 16 00:21:16 anyhow.. to sleep I go now! Jul 16 00:21:30 heh me too Jul 16 00:21:32 gn8 Jul 16 00:24:12 hello Jul 16 01:35:45 has anyone got vim running on the openmoko? Jul 16 01:37:58 jadams: I haven't tried yet Jul 16 01:38:41 jadams: I am assuming that the vi clone in busybox isn't cutting it for you? Jul 16 01:42:34 cibomahto: I would want vim vim anyway Jul 16 01:42:43 I mean, I'll try it out...but I doubt it Jul 16 01:43:00 desert island application, vim is Jul 16 01:43:34 sure Jul 16 01:44:07 its a good idea Jul 16 01:44:20 but you might want a bt keyboard first :-) Jul 16 01:53:21 cibomahto: on the list Jul 16 01:53:29 I'm going to get a fabric bt keyboard I can roll up to start with Jul 16 01:53:54 planning on potentially getting a little mag sheet and cutting it up and making a stand to hold out a few inches in front of the phone, attach it to a custom stand for the phone Jul 16 01:54:10 so I can try to use the display in laptop config Jul 16 01:54:30 jadams: cool, it sounds like fun Jul 16 01:55:14 jadams: i think it might be good as a scientific calculator if Python gets set up correctly Jul 16 02:01:33 is there an easy way to try out openmoko on ubuntu gutsy? Jul 16 02:02:47 dcsmith_ I'm just creating an chroot-image - will be online tomorrow Jul 16 02:03:05 nice Jul 16 02:03:27 counter? Jul 16 02:03:28 (last update 2007-07-14 16:40) http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter : Order https://direct.openmoko.com/ ; Shipping prob. 65% in a day 09:56:27 (1.414±1.0 days) (1746;248) Jul 16 02:06:58 man, that's exciting. it might ship tomorrow. Jul 16 02:10:38 dcsmith: how is gutsy at present? Jul 16 02:10:51 I'm about to get a new laptop, might consider installing it if it's stable Jul 16 02:12:22 kristian-m: how would the chroot image work? it'd be built for x86 then right? Jul 16 02:13:43 summatusmentis: I think it would have to be run in an environment compatible with what it was built on Jul 16 02:15:00 cibomahto: oh... wait, why? chroot just shifts the root to the new dir... using the entire toolchain setup there. Unless somehow the toolchain/system tools are somehow linked to the build machine... Jul 16 02:16:22 summatusmentis: i guess you are right, yeah Jul 16 02:17:14 summatusmentis: as long as the kernel is compatible... could be interesting, but it will probably work. Jul 16 02:17:43 (because you still need to link /dev and /proc) Jul 16 02:17:45 the only thing I can think of is if somehow the chroot dir is built and linked to the libs from the host system Jul 16 02:17:59 true.. I forgot about kernel Jul 16 02:18:24 well, but chroot would need to be built for the host machine arch, so I don't see why it wouldn't be compatible Jul 16 02:19:11 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Talk:Clocks]] [[Test_Openmoko_Emulation_with_chroot_image]] [[Modular_phone]] [[Talk:Modular_phone]] Jul 16 02:19:48 summatusmentis: I dont have too much experiance with this, but if any of the interfaces that device modules were presenting had changed, then it seems like they might not work Jul 16 02:21:58 I suppose that's possible... hrm Jul 16 02:22:55 summatusmentis: the kernel interfaces aren't that volatile Jul 16 02:23:24 cesarb: what do you mean volatile? Jul 16 02:23:44 cesarb: any other ideas about things that might not be compatible? Jul 16 02:24:35 cibomahto: the chroot takes care of the most common incompatibility source (lib versions), and the kernel interfaces don't change too often (except for sysfs, but a development environment wouldn't depend on sysfs stuff) Jul 16 02:25:05 cesarb: oh, good Jul 16 02:25:06 cibomahto: the problem would mostly be with kernel modules to do usb stuff (not the dfu flasher, which IIRC uses libusb) Jul 16 02:26:11 kristian-m: what distro are you using, btw? Jul 16 02:26:53 cesarb: thanks. Jul 16 02:27:26 cibomahto: loopback mount? why? Jul 16 02:27:32 * cesarb looking at the wiki Jul 16 02:28:11 A simple .tar.bz2 would be way more efficient (sharing free space with the host filesystem) Jul 16 02:28:35 cesarb: hmm? i was asking kristian-m because I am still thinking about making a LiveCD package to include the chroot environment Jul 16 02:28:54 cibomahto: ah, I see, the wiki page isn't yours Jul 16 02:28:58 cibomahto: sorry Jul 16 02:28:58 cesarb: I guess it doesnt really matter. I use gentoo but i wouldnt wish that on an unsuspecting user Jul 16 02:29:05 cesarb: no problems Jul 16 02:30:45 is the wiki down? Jul 16 02:31:12 ok, i have to go, see you all later. Jul 16 02:46:56 * * OM Bug 639 has been created by bmidgley(AT)gmail.com Jul 16 02:46:57 * * bluetooth panel can't power up radio Jul 16 02:46:58 * * http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=639 Jul 16 02:47:36 hey guys Jul 16 02:48:44 hello Jul 16 02:49:36 Anyone got emacs to work? Jul 16 02:51:17 anyone here know how to check the placed order? Jul 16 02:51:33 note:this is a serious question. Jul 16 02:52:12 run emacs on openmoko? Jul 16 02:54:17 jackey: reply to the email Jul 16 02:55:12 jackey: i hope you have a bt keyboard Jul 16 02:55:20 it's already painful enough using the soft keyboard Jul 16 02:56:00 I said YES_I_DO Jul 16 02:56:07 emacs bindings are going to be like 8 taps to do c-x c-c Jul 16 02:56:11 just do not know when I can get them. Jul 16 02:56:12 jackey: ORANGE Jul 16 02:56:26 bmidgley: come one, it's a neo? where's your creativity? Jul 16 02:56:31 [rt.internal.openmoko.org #2013] Jul 16 02:56:38 bmidgley: you just have to create a special soft keyboard for emacs use Jul 16 02:56:46 bmidgley: with quick access to ctrl, for instance Jul 16 02:56:48 if someone here can check my order, plz help me Jul 16 02:57:08 why run emacs Jul 16 02:57:18 jackey: why not? Jul 16 02:57:39 is anyone running the dev environment in freebsd? Jul 16 02:57:48 jackey: it's known as "Eight Megabytes And Constantly Swapping", and the neo has way more than 8 megabytes, so it should work fine ;-) Jul 16 02:57:51 got a bluetooth keyboard, of course u can Jul 16 02:58:01 jackey: haave faith Jul 16 02:58:21 software keypad is a good solution too Jul 16 02:58:36 i would like to see some handwriting abbility too Jul 16 02:58:55 not me Jul 16 02:59:00 i am trying to put some handwriting stuff too here. Jul 16 02:59:25 personally i disagree on the handwriting stuff Jul 16 02:59:53 i think considering the vast amounts of efforts required to program and maintain hand recognition software in comparions to its utility that its a huge waste of time and energy **** ENDING LOGGING AT Mon Jul 16 02:59:58 2007