**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Fri Jul 20 02:59:56 2007 Jul 20 03:01:23 * BryceLeo heads out to bed Jul 20 03:40:21 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[P1_Owners]] [[Talk:Gsmd]] [[Talk:Wishlist:Silent_mode_timeout]] Jul 20 03:47:21 no charges yesterday Jul 20 03:47:30 * aloril wonders if any more today Jul 20 03:55:43 I haven't seen any. Jul 20 03:57:35 But I'm about 170 RT numbers later than the person whose card was charged. Jul 20 04:21:30 so its upto 1880 now? Jul 20 04:24:42 Dunno, where'd you hear that? :') Jul 20 04:25:51 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/P1_Owners Jul 20 04:25:58 mellon: what's your #? Jul 20 04:26:09 I've got about 100 to go... ;") Jul 20 04:26:15 nice Jul 20 04:26:37 Hm, the 1880 entry was supposedly yesterday. Jul 20 04:26:54 oh? Jul 20 04:27:02 That's what it says in the wiki. Jul 20 04:27:10 I have no more information than you! :') Jul 20 04:27:37 i haven't got one yet for #1857 Jul 20 04:27:54 an e-mail i mean Jul 20 04:28:37 They did say that there's no definite connection between RT tickets and the order in which orders will be fulfilled. Jul 20 04:28:54 oh, weird Jul 20 04:29:07 it would make more sense for them to do it by area Jul 20 04:29:13 Really? Jul 20 04:29:18 Sounds like a ton of work! Jul 20 04:29:27 quinton: where are you located? Jul 20 04:29:31 UK Jul 20 04:30:50 Wow, there are a lot of Arizonans on the list. Jul 20 04:31:08 i dunno, i just got the impression that was how they'd do it Jul 20 04:31:09 I know somebody at UofA is getting one, and there's me, and two other people in the Phoenix area. Jul 20 04:31:33 * ferric shrugs Jul 20 04:31:35 Well, the first three confirmed on the wiki are in different countries - Canada, US and Sweden. :') Jul 20 04:31:43 So I'd say that your locality theory is out the window! Jul 20 04:31:50 But it was a fun theory! Jul 20 04:31:51 =p Jul 20 04:32:55 i find it quite surprising that only 2 people have got confirmations so far Jul 20 04:34:36 Oh, god knows what's going on. Jul 20 04:34:50 Probably they ran into some procedural snag and haven't resolved it yet. Jul 20 04:35:19 probably it was 1000x more popular than they expected Jul 20 04:35:19 yep, as is typical. but they're doing a great job for a 4 ppl team. Jul 20 04:35:21 One could wish for more transparency, but I think we have a clear trend on that, which we'd seen before we ordered, so I guess we just have to suck it up and hope for the best. Jul 20 04:35:22 Yeah. Jul 20 04:35:34 If they really got 2k orders, it's no surprise. Jul 20 04:35:39 mellon: you can't be more transparent Jul 20 04:35:59 mellon: sean can't say FIC middle management is full of idiots that are making it tough to get the boxes out Jul 20 04:36:16 That may not even be the problem. Jul 20 04:36:29 Unless you have more information than I do. :') Jul 20 04:36:34 nope. Jul 20 04:36:53 My money's on UPS, actually. They tend to be a big pain, and they may well have created some kind of major logjam. Jul 20 04:36:54 but from everything I've read so far, these guys really have no support from within FIC Jul 20 04:37:20 ferric: although for those of us who have lost their phones and are not bothering to buy another phone as have ordered a fic it might be nice if an email gets sent out saying sorry due to popular demand there will be a delay on orders Jul 20 04:37:23 mellon: possible Jul 20 04:37:32 ouch. Jul 20 04:37:44 xzcvczx: are you serious? Jul 20 04:37:49 you're really pushing the envelope doing that. Jul 20 04:37:51 xzcvczx: this thing _barely_ works. Jul 20 04:37:59 go buy a cheapie nokia 6010 Jul 20 04:38:00 I mean, it doesn't even work reliably, or so they assure us! :') Jul 20 04:38:01 or something. Jul 20 04:38:13 ferric: all i want/need is text/calling Jul 20 04:38:31 xzcvczx: even that is not perfect. Jul 20 04:38:32 you might need to do a bit of work to get that... Jul 20 04:38:34 That doesn't even necessarily work. And in particular, battery life is terrible. Jul 20 04:38:42 the battery on early releases has sucked, too Jul 20 04:38:43 yeah Jul 20 04:38:49 I mean, I'm totally with you on this - I want to use this as my primary phone too. Jul 20 04:38:50 ferric: and after i have had my last 2 phones nicked Jul 20 04:39:02 make sure to chain this one to your belt. Jul 20 04:39:11 fortunately there's a loop for the chain. :') Jul 20 04:39:12 or, rather, don't get it at all Jul 20 04:39:25 if you've got 2 phones nicked, just get shitty phones that are worthless Jul 20 04:39:44 mellon: i am programming a phone home thing for it that if someone nicks my phone it texts me the gps location every 5 mins so i can follow the person who nicks it Jul 20 04:40:20 they'll be mighty disappointed if they steal it, unless the thief happens to be a geek. :') Jul 20 04:40:37 mellon: still more fun than having them throw it away Jul 20 04:40:41 xzcvczx: when someone nicks your phone, the first thing they do is pull out and throw away the SIM Jul 20 04:40:53 mellon, why is the battery life bad? Jul 20 04:40:54 ferric: that won't help them. Jul 20 04:40:56 ferric: and put in a new sim Jul 20 04:41:04 xzcvczx: nope, and sell it Jul 20 04:41:07 ferric: thats what triggers the texting Jul 20 04:41:10 it's bad because the chip is running at full speed all the time right now. Jul 20 04:41:30 mellon, thanks, i didn't realise that Jul 20 04:41:33 not that I know anything about knicking phones. chuckle. Jul 20 04:41:57 xzcvczx: but do you have another GPS to follow it with ;-) Jul 20 04:42:07 ferric: lol.... not so easy to sell stuff straight away here too easy for people to find you.... most of it gets stored for a year or 2 Jul 20 04:42:20 quinton:I've been drooling over this phone for a while now... :') Jul 20 04:42:24 cjb_ie: yup in my tablet... a bluetooth one Jul 20 04:42:32 * ferric goes to bed. Jul 20 04:42:34 xzcvczx: what kind of phone is still worth anything after 2 years in storage? Jul 20 04:42:59 mellon, me to, i don't usually get enthused by gadgets Jul 20 04:43:35 I was very tempted by the Trolltech phone - I didn't get it because it was too expensive, and the Neo was announced right around the time the greenphone was released. Jul 20 04:43:46 cjb_ie: for example the 5140i was about $400 1.5 years ago and now its still going for $249-$299 so i mean they steal it for $0 and sell it for $249 they still make a $249 profit Jul 20 04:43:48 xzcvczx: value of tech gadgets drops like lead balloons Jul 20 04:43:55 ah, fair enough Jul 20 04:44:15 but they'll hardly make the current new price, on a used phone...? Jul 20 04:44:19 cjb_ie: anything over free and they make a profit Jul 20 04:44:34 mellon: greenphone still has issues Jul 20 04:44:38 cjb_ie: thats on our ebay clone going for that price Jul 20 04:44:42 well, I didn't buy it, did I? :') Jul 20 04:45:01 Not the least of the issues was the $800 sticker price. *ouch*! Jul 20 04:45:14 the fact that it's open means that it's capable of doing anything it should be capable of. the really cool thing is all the interesting ideas that pop up on this channel Jul 20 04:45:44 yeah. the anti-theft angle is a fun one - I'm interested to see how that plays out. Jul 20 04:46:44 Oh pfui. I can't hard-link on vmware shares. Jul 20 04:46:50 Lame lame lame lame lame! Jul 20 04:47:14 This makes building on MacOS X a lot harder than I'd hoped. :'( Jul 20 04:47:17 mellon: you can't ln ? Jul 20 04:47:55 I'm running Ubuntu under vmware and sharing my Mac OS X home directory using VMware's sharing mechanism - apparently it doesn't grok hard linking. Jul 20 04:48:20 mellon: ah. i'm doing the same, but with parallels Jul 20 04:48:30 does parallels have some kind of file sharing with Linux now? Jul 20 04:48:33 i'm not sure why you can't let everything link within the VM, though Jul 20 04:48:41 s/link/live/ Jul 20 04:48:41 ferric meant: i'm not sure why you can't let everything live within the VM, though Jul 20 04:48:58 mellon: hence why i have one machine of each... one win, one mac and one linux Jul 20 04:49:04 Well, sure, but then I have to have a much bigger disk in the VM, which is a drag, plus I can't get at my files other than in the VM. Jul 20 04:49:13 I travel too much - it has to all run on my laptop. :'} Jul 20 04:49:32 mellon: ssh :P Jul 20 04:50:05 Yeah. I can do it - this just makes it more of a pain than I'd hoped. Jul 20 04:51:08 ah Jul 20 04:51:17 * ferric just gave it 33GB and seems to be fine. Jul 20 04:52:03 Ouch! Where will I put all my iTunes media then? :') Jul 20 04:52:49 self inflicted, methinks. :) Jul 20 04:53:16 * cjb_ie has recently acquired a 160 gig disk to upgrade his laptop with. just have to find time to dd the disks now. Jul 20 04:53:18 :-P Jul 20 04:54:06 the problem with those 160GB's is they're 4200rpm Jul 20 04:54:39 Mine's 5400. Jul 20 04:54:57 not this one, i think... Jul 20 04:55:43 'twas certainly purchased as a 5400rpm Jul 20 04:56:11 think the 100 i've been using for the past year or so is 4200, a little speedup will be nice. Jul 20 04:56:23 so, i did a make qemu, now how do i start the neo emulator everytime? Jul 20 04:56:41 * mwester just purchased a 5400 RPM 120GB drive for his laptop, for the same reason... :D Jul 20 04:57:25 if nothing else, this project is certainly putting more currency in circulation! Jul 20 04:57:30 i've been wanting a 160 for a while, then they suddenly got cheaper and faster. Jul 20 04:57:35 so i had to buy one. Jul 20 04:57:41 that's my excuse and i'm sticking to it. Jul 20 04:57:54 oh, and i had a job too Jul 20 04:57:57 heh Jul 20 04:57:59 but that's a minor detail. Jul 20 04:58:09 Just make sure it has at least an 8MB cache Jul 20 04:58:52 meh, the machine it's going in is slow enough anyway... Jul 20 05:00:13 http://www.komplett.ie/k/ki.aspx?sku=325711 that's the one. 8M cache, not that it'll affect me much. Jul 20 05:01:54 Nice! Jul 20 05:02:47 the 12ms average seek seems a bit high, but meh. 60 gigs extra space, and a friend is buying the 100gig disk for 50eur Jul 20 05:02:54 so i feel like i'm almost making a profit. Jul 20 05:04:42 this will be... *counts* the 5th disk in the machine since i got it. it started with 20, i upgraded to 40, 80, 100 and now 160. hopefully the bios won't go ape. Jul 20 05:06:04 Wow, way to go! Jul 20 05:06:21 I can never make a laptop last that long. :'( Jul 20 05:06:55 i hadn't planned to put the 100 in it... but the 80 gig was getting unhappy so i retired to light duty in a usb caddy Jul 20 05:07:18 some 2.5" drives are only designed to be powered up 8 hours of 24 Jul 20 05:07:26 hehe Jul 20 05:07:32 samsung is nice Jul 20 05:07:43 at least the P80 series has been very good Jul 20 05:07:47 i think this new one is the first i've got with a 36 month warranty Jul 20 05:08:08 * xkr47 is wondering whether the new samsung 512G and 1T drives are good Jul 20 05:08:09 mellon: it's a small one, they don't fall as hard ;-) Jul 20 05:08:17 a 2x512G raid1 would be nice Jul 20 05:08:34 would fit a couple of openembedded installations also!! Jul 20 05:09:05 My unbuilt tree is already almost 250 megabytes. Wow. Jul 20 05:09:20 i suspect this will probably be the only 10" laptop in the country with a 160G drive when i fit it. Jul 20 05:09:38 What kind of laptop is it? Jul 20 05:09:49 * xkr47 hopes bigger flash discs start appearing Jul 20 05:09:50 Is it one of those IBM butterfly ones? Jul 20 05:09:59 ancient little crusoe-based fujitsu Jul 20 05:10:04 Wow. Jul 20 05:10:15 bought it in... *ponders* 2002? Jul 20 05:10:43 < still using a p2120 ;) Jul 20 05:10:43 That would be... five laptops ago for me. Jul 20 05:10:53 wanted a nice small one i could throw in my backpack for cycling across town to college and back Jul 20 05:11:02 telcontar: ha! p2110 here :p Jul 20 05:11:43 I cant find a replacement, still nothing good out there Jul 20 05:11:50 telcontar: that's how i feel. Jul 20 05:11:57 There's the new Palm thing! :') Jul 20 05:12:02 last time i looked on ebay, the p2110 was still fetching around $800 Jul 20 05:12:12 this cost me $1200 new (open box, marked down from $1500) Jul 20 05:12:42 i broke one of the lid latches a few months ago, i was very disappointed. Jul 20 05:12:52 heh Jul 20 05:13:07 that's what i get for leaving it open in the car for GPS logging, and throwing my bag down on top of it Jul 20 05:13:07 have you found a source for parts at all? Jul 20 05:13:16 i have looked lately Jul 20 05:13:17 telcontar: i've been hoping to find a dead one on ebay Jul 20 05:13:31 Looks like a nice machine. Jul 20 05:14:01 yay, my build seems to be going. Jul 20 05:14:07 the sockets for power and earphone both developed dry joints a couple of years back so i had to open it up to fix those. had to take it almost completely apart to fix the power one. Jul 20 05:14:13 im actually tempted by the new palm..if it can be flashed with a different flavor of os Jul 20 05:14:20 yeah, that's what I'd do too. :') Jul 20 05:14:26 2 pounds beats the fujitsu Jul 20 05:14:30 telcontar: it's probably almost as powerful as our crusoes :-) Jul 20 05:14:41 But so small! Jul 20 05:14:48 what's yours, 933MHz or something? mine is 867 Jul 20 05:15:06 there is a new laptop coming out Jul 20 05:15:12 $250 Jul 20 05:15:17 the one thing i'd like on this would be usb2 ports Jul 20 05:15:25 its called somethign like the eeetop or something? Jul 20 05:15:30 933 Jul 20 05:15:32 asus eee Jul 20 05:15:35 telcontar: but only a 7" display in a 10" case, and only 16G of flash Jul 20 05:15:37 yeah thanks Jul 20 05:15:47 the asus looks pretty compelling Jul 20 05:15:53 4-8 gig flash as the drive Jul 20 05:16:00 in a few months they say they'll release one with a 10" display maybe the same resolution as the p2110/p2120 Jul 20 05:16:10 im kind of a ssh/screen/vim kind of guy Jul 20 05:16:18 i would rather have small Jul 20 05:16:29 sure, but i fit 200 chars across on 1280x768 Jul 20 05:16:44 as long as the weight is down Jul 20 05:17:02 i went to look at dell "lightweight" and it was in the 4-5 pounds range Jul 20 05:17:02 meh, 1.6kg isn't too bad i think Jul 20 05:17:30 my gf's laptop has literally twice the footprint and more than twice the weight of this. and maybe half the battery life. Jul 20 05:17:38 heh our openmoko will be all we need right? :) Jul 20 05:17:50 Yeah, could be. Jul 20 05:17:59 i'm holding out for the gta02 Jul 20 05:18:04 If only it had a digital video out. Jul 20 05:18:19 Then I could just plug it into my monitor and go. Although it needs faster I/O. Jul 20 05:18:19 i just don't have time to do development outside of work for the next couple of months Jul 20 05:19:13 right now at work i'm using synergy on the laptop - it's sitting in front of the other machine's monitor, so i have the screens stacked vertically rather than horizontally Jul 20 05:19:16 a little vnc goes a long way Jul 20 05:19:32 they're both 1280px wide so it works out nicely. Jul 20 05:19:34 im just hoping the keyboard is usable Jul 20 05:19:52 im worried that the touchscreen is going to be difficult to work with over time Jul 20 05:19:54 ha, you should see how worn my keyboard is... Jul 20 05:20:11 not only have some of the legends worn off, some of the keys have dimples worn into the top Jul 20 05:20:19 If the moko thing takes off, longevity will start to become a competitive advantage for phones. Jul 20 05:20:31 I don't think you can put too much on the Neo - it's just a seed, not the fruit. Jul 20 05:20:44 ha, i've had my sonyericsson p910i for nearly 3 years now Jul 20 05:20:57 You're my eco-hero, man. :') Jul 20 05:20:58 it looks even more battered than fuj Jul 20 05:21:11 had to replace the screen about a year ago Jul 20 05:22:09 yay for hong kong ebayers Jul 20 05:22:43 anyone seen the gumstix? Jul 20 05:22:52 http://www.gumstix.com/ Jul 20 05:22:53 you mean the new one with the gsm modem? Jul 20 05:22:56 yeah Jul 20 05:23:02 telcontar: not in person, but i wanted one so badly for openstreetmap gps logging Jul 20 05:23:03 that'll be a nice moko platform. Jul 20 05:23:22 (yeah, i'm one of those osm geeks) Jul 20 05:23:23 it looks a bit expensive for the parts Jul 20 05:23:29 Yeah. Jul 20 05:23:32 but id pay it if it had a touchscreen Jul 20 05:23:41 the modularity is really nice Jul 20 05:23:42 I'd really like to get a PicoITX motherboard with a GSM modem and an ARM chip. Jul 20 05:24:07 Small is good, but sometimes you want a little more than will fit on two square inches of motherboard. Jul 20 05:24:14 it would allow me to have a ducttape cellphone Jul 20 05:24:16 the only thing holding me back was the lack of a usb host port - seems i could have jury rigged a little board with a usb host controller, but i would have had to start kernel hacking to make it work. Jul 20 05:24:20 i would be l33tsauce with that Jul 20 05:24:46 I'm just sad that I don't get to bring my phone to IETF. I would be the leetest geek there. :') Jul 20 05:25:04 yah Jul 20 05:25:31 im not going to be cool for ubuntulive this weekend :O Jul 20 05:25:53 ayway, now i have a gps that'll log to an SD card itself, so the need for a gumstx has passed. Jul 20 05:25:56 oh, the huge manatee! Jul 20 05:26:31 anyway... i better stop chatting and get some work done. Jul 20 05:26:38 ciao! Jul 20 05:26:45 keep the faith! Jul 20 05:27:11 telcontar: if you're ever selling your p2120... ;-) Jul 20 05:27:30 haha Jul 20 05:27:42 too fond of it Jul 20 05:27:55 it will go to the computer museum downstairs Jul 20 05:28:27 i know the feeling, this one is far nicer than the toshiba subnote i had before it, which cost me well over twice as much Jul 20 05:29:16 though the tosh is still going strong for a friend of mine who emigrated to china to teach english. Jul 20 05:29:51 another friend described it to me before i bought it as a "weapons grade" subnote, and it does seem to be pretty much indestructible. Jul 20 05:30:42 telcontar: how have you fared with the optical drive in the p2120? Jul 20 05:30:45 once i switched to a 3pound notebook i never looked back Jul 20 05:30:52 it works fine Jul 20 05:30:56 but i never use it Jul 20 05:31:04 i should have bought the second battery Jul 20 05:31:06 mine stopped reading DVDs a couple of years back, and stopped doing anything with CDs too maybe a year ago Jul 20 05:31:28 i got the extended battery (the front one, not the media bay one) about a year ago Jul 20 05:31:36 6 hours battery life - mmmm. Jul 20 05:31:38 yeah that was a good buy Jul 20 05:32:04 the original battery was down to about 1.5 hours' life, which wasn't really useful for college Jul 20 05:32:34 just about get through one lecture and then need to find somewhere to charge Jul 20 05:32:43 we'll see if the asus eee can replace it Jul 20 05:33:24 yeah, i'm keeping a close eye on it. 7" just isn't enough for me though, i'll bide my time and wait for 10" Jul 20 05:34:08 oh, that's begging to be taken out of context... Jul 20 05:34:57 ckuethe: :p Jul 20 05:34:58 fortunately, though, we are mature adults who can handle a bit of contextual ambiguity. Jul 20 05:35:00 :') Jul 20 05:35:15 hey, there was nothing ambiguous about the context! Jul 20 05:35:23 of course. no doubt you were talking about in car video or something Jul 20 05:35:34 small screens being insufficient... Jul 20 05:35:41 ckuethe: the asus eee mentioned on the previous line to my blooper. Jul 20 05:36:28 telcontar: what do you run on the '20? ubuntu runs very well on the '10 Jul 20 05:37:05 hmph. uptime 13 days, i don't remember rebooting that recently. Jul 20 05:38:59 i think the first os i installed on it was redhat 9, which was okay. fedora was just crashtacular. then i went to libranet, which was nice (and the first to autodetect the screen resolution correctly), stayed with that for two releases, and ubuntu ever since. Jul 20 05:39:45 anyway, i was going back to work .... *ahem* :-) Jul 20 05:40:01 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Bluetooth_powered_Multi-SIM_support]] [[P1_Owners]] [[OpenMoko_Local_Groups:_Salt_Lake]] [[User:Bmidgley]] [[OpenMoko_Local_Groups]] [[OpenMoko_Local_Groups:_Arizona]] [[Building_OpenMoko_from_scratch]] Jul 20 05:43:07 hehe sorry yeah im running feisty on the 2120 Jul 20 05:43:11 back to work you! Jul 20 06:13:04 zowie! Jul 20 07:04:21 Rats, build failed. Jul 20 07:08:14 mellon: On what? Jul 20 07:08:37 | /home/openmoko/tmp/cross/bin/arm-linux-as: unrecognized option `-Qy' Jul 20 07:09:00 It's getting late - probably I should wait until morning to look at it. :'} Jul 20 07:09:02 mellon: Ah, that's some bash issue. It's mentioned on the Talk page for MokoMakefile Jul 20 07:09:07 Oh, thanks. Jul 20 07:09:29 mellon: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Talk:MokoMakefile#do_compile_fails_with_unreconized_option_.27-Qy.27 Jul 20 07:10:29 Basically says there's sometihng in his .bashrc screwing up the build. Would be nice to figure out exactly what it is and update the wiki Jul 20 07:10:46 Yes, it would. Jul 20 07:13:01 mellon: I had this same problem yesterday. It has to do with your PATH env variable. Try doing "PATH=/bin:/usr/bin:/usr/local/bin make openmoko-devel-image" and see if that works for you. Jul 20 07:14:13 yeah, I have a pretty hairy path - I'm trying that now. Jul 20 07:15:19 * CM updates wiki Jul 20 07:16:23 CM, nilweed: thanks. I'm going to let it run while I sleep; hopefully this solves the problem. Jul 20 07:16:47 good luck. I just got qemu running. it's very exciting! Jul 20 07:16:52 the gui complaining about usb1.1 has got a point considering we will soon have 8gb microsd Jul 20 07:16:57 cool! Jul 20 07:17:52 8 gigs via usb1... that's what, at best 2.5 hours to read or write a full medium Jul 20 07:18:05 How fast is the wifi chip? Jul 20 07:18:25 buz: I seem to manage to fill up my hard drive pretty fast over my internet connection, which is probably slower than USB... :') Jul 20 07:18:35 Because I doubt anyone will have a 8gb chip in a P1 Jul 20 07:18:53 CM: mostly because it has a usb1.1 port :p Jul 20 07:18:56 If it fits, I'm putting one in. Jul 20 07:19:05 CM: does P2 have usb2 for that port? Jul 20 07:19:06 mellon: USB 1.1 is probably faster than 802.11b, but not 11g Jul 20 07:19:16 buz: Don't think so Jul 20 07:19:26 yeah, slightly faster. 12mbps vs. 10mbps Jul 20 07:20:01 It looks like the PATH fix worked. Jul 20 07:20:03 and they're both half duplex buses so comparing like with like Jul 20 07:20:34 If you're using the machine as a portable library, I think it'll be okay. If you want to move tons of data on or off all at once, probably not okay. Jul 20 07:20:35 I think it's a pain to fill my 1gb mem card in the phone over usb1 Jul 20 07:20:46 E.g., you don't want to use it as an iPod shuffle. Jul 20 07:21:44 yeah filling it with 1gb data will take nearly half an hour after you factor in overhead etc Jul 20 07:23:32 I'm a little tempted to use the thing as a mobile hack platform. That's completely stupid, of course, but then 8G would be a nice number. Jul 20 07:25:24 oo looks like they managed to charge 2 more people yesterday Jul 20 07:25:33 w00t! Jul 20 07:25:47 sadly, not in ordernumber sequence Jul 20 07:25:48 Only 50 days to go for me, then! Jul 20 07:25:53 Oops. Jul 20 07:25:55 oh well Jul 20 07:26:07 so you might be next :) Jul 20 07:26:32 w00t! Jul 20 07:26:36 :') Jul 20 07:27:07 Oo, someone from AZ> Jul 20 07:27:52 So apparently I'm a complete loon for preferring the creamsicle version to the black/silver version. Jul 20 07:28:00 ScaredyCat: did you see that on the wiki? Jul 20 07:28:08 ya Jul 20 07:28:15 ScaredyCat: could you give me a URL to view (pretty plz) Jul 20 07:28:26 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/P1_Owners Jul 20 07:28:45 mokobot: p1 owners is http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/P1_Owners Jul 20 07:28:45 okay, ScaredyCat Jul 20 07:28:53 ~p1 owners Jul 20 07:28:53 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/P1_Owners Jul 20 07:28:56 :) Jul 20 07:29:10 ScaredyCat: thanks Jul 20 07:30:13 I haven't recieved any tracking number yet though :-/ Jul 20 07:30:23 CC charged? Jul 20 07:30:39 Yes, 2 days ago Jul 20 07:30:51 Or not charged really, but "reserved" Jul 20 07:31:39 #1880 has a received payment, but that is later than mine .. mine is #1848 .. I don't get this Jul 20 07:31:59 buz: It's certainly one of the "bigger" drawbacks but a SD-Adapter is included so you can plug it into any sd-reader. Jul 20 07:32:01 They're toying with us, making sure we really want it. Jul 20 07:32:13 ;) Jul 20 07:32:14 s/one/is one/ Jul 20 07:32:14 Kensan meant: buz: It's certainly is one of the "bigger" drawbacks but a SD-Adapter is included so you can plug it into any sd-reader. Jul 20 07:33:13 sannes: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/SH1_FAQ#My_order_number_is_XXXX_will_I_get_a_phone_from_the_first_batch.3F Jul 20 07:33:13 mokobot: Ah, you're quiet again :D Jul 20 07:33:35 Blech, my credit card company is two days behind on reporting charges, so I won't be able to track it that way. Jul 20 07:34:07 it's random sannes.... they hav a giant wheel with all the numbers on it.. ;) Jul 20 07:35:12 hi Jul 20 07:35:19 howdy Jul 20 07:35:49 "(Received/replied to YES_I_DO (by phone))" Jul 20 07:35:57 whoaaa htere, you have a phone number! Jul 20 07:36:04 I have #1952, so I hope I'm in first batch also... Jul 20 07:40:14 hey there Jul 20 07:40:21 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[OpenMoko_Local_Groups:_Frankfurt_Main]] [[P1_Owners]] [[Talk:MokoMakefile]] [[OpenMoko_Local_Groups]] [[CDC_ACM]] [[Basic_End-user/ru]] [[OpenMoko_Local_Groups:_Arizona]] Jul 20 07:40:51 i know i already asked this but is there a chance that moko will ever be synced with OE? Jul 20 07:42:00 morning Jul 20 07:42:06 hi there Jul 20 07:42:33 dcordes: http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/distro-devel/2007-June/000042.html Jul 20 07:46:06 dcordes: cant see why not, there are open source libs to do that Jul 20 07:47:36 Linux_Galore: to do what? Jul 20 07:47:52 dcordes: import export OE information Jul 20 07:48:05 Linux_Galore: I think he means openembedded, not open exchange Jul 20 07:48:18 yea Jul 20 07:51:29 Kensan: that sounds good Jul 20 07:54:35 hi guys Jul 20 07:55:57 morning Jul 20 07:57:51 Where are the sysops for this server? I registered my nick a looong time ago and I want to recover it! Jul 20 07:58:19 squalyl: is your registration just dropped? Jul 20 07:58:33 if so /msg nickserv register email passwprd Jul 20 08:00:35 No need for email on freenode. Jul 20 08:00:53 it doesn't work, my previous account seems to work, all what I need is to reset my password (i feel lame....) Jul 20 08:01:05 (seems to exist) Jul 20 08:02:33 squalyl: theres a way to reset ot if was not used for >1month Jul 20 08:03:04 it was not used for 44 weeks! Jul 20 08:03:26 so if there is a mean, I would be happy to learn... Jul 20 08:04:17 http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#unusednick Jul 20 08:05:39 so we get back to my first request... how can I contact the staff? :D Jul 20 08:06:08 that shoudl all be in the faq Jul 20 08:06:50 squalyl: #freenode Jul 20 08:08:29 ewanm89_laptop: thx Jul 20 08:38:04 OK someone helped me. I'm now controlling my nick ^^ Jul 20 08:48:38 ja? Jul 20 09:01:27 yeah, but how do we know its really you squalyl Jul 20 09:12:59 howdy Jul 20 09:24:27 tum te tum Jul 20 09:28:05 forecast says a third CC should have been charged by now. is it? :) Jul 20 09:38:17 Kero: 2 more Jul 20 09:38:32 but their rt ticket numbers aren't in sequence Jul 20 09:39:32 ScaredyCat: I said it before, they are doing slow-start ;-) Jul 20 09:39:42 ScaredyCat: tomorrow will be 4 more ;-) Jul 20 09:40:17 let's hope Jul 20 09:40:21 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[MokoMakefile]] Jul 20 09:40:37 by this rate i should have my neo right about in time for x-mas 2008 :) Jul 20 09:40:41 zomg! I just realised Jul 20 09:40:48 there is no geek-holster for the moko! Jul 20 09:40:52 * ewon panics Jul 20 09:41:11 ewon, haha :) Jul 20 09:41:22 i bet one of the palm or treo ones will fit Jul 20 09:41:24 ewon, i have also thought about holsters Jul 20 09:42:36 pft, holster... Jul 20 09:42:58 I'm carrying my advanced case everywhere ;) Jul 20 09:44:53 xD Jul 20 09:44:59 ScaredyCat: you can use the lanyard with the case ;) Jul 20 09:45:20 :) Jul 20 09:46:02 who is planning to come to the camp? Jul 20 09:47:14 * TobiX <-- But it's unclear if I can come at all... Jul 20 09:48:37 cel: If I'm (un)lucky I have to work then... Jul 20 09:49:17 why do people sign messages then not provide a public key ? Jul 20 09:49:39 ewon: Many backpacks have nice holsters on their front strip, but they may be too small... Jul 20 09:49:48 TobiX: where are you from? Jul 20 09:50:02 ScaredyCat: Then can at least verify it themselves.... Jul 20 09:50:11 cel: Aachen, Germany Jul 20 09:50:17 TobiX: no, no you need a geek holster, that attaches to your belt, that holds a smartphone... Jul 20 09:50:35 ewon: Ah, thoth things... Jul 20 09:50:43 TobiX: are they that forgetful ;) Jul 20 09:51:00 ewon: I have a nice pouch for my NDS... Jul 20 09:51:04 let's face it, a moko isn't going to fit in your pocket unless you're wearing combats ors... Jul 20 09:51:27 or you're a larger person... Jul 20 09:51:37 with pockets a VW could fit in Jul 20 09:52:13 * TobiX steals camera of roommate... Let's take some nice pictures of my "geek pouch" ;) Jul 20 09:52:24 heh :) Jul 20 09:52:33 oh look, firefox is killing my machine again :/ Jul 20 09:52:50 it's fucking july, it's dark outside, and it's raining Jul 20 09:52:57 ewon: Official Nintendo gear, even ;) Jul 20 09:53:05 even in ireland july is supposed to be == sunshine Jul 20 09:53:44 in austria we going into the hottest day (forecast 38° C) Jul 20 09:54:13 it's been 38 days since we had a day with no rain Jul 20 09:54:23 it's insane Jul 20 09:55:35 yup Jul 20 09:55:48 Arrg. Now who said a glass table was geeky? Jul 20 09:55:49 iirc greece was suffering really badly from the heat Jul 20 09:56:02 But now I dismounted my old computer table... Jul 20 09:56:23 s/dismounted/disassembled/ I think... Jul 20 09:56:39 Stephanie no disassemble Jul 20 09:57:21 no5 alive! Jul 20 09:57:32 :) Jul 20 10:01:03 mokobot Jul 20 10:02:46 for the ones who complains about the weather, I share your anger... In paris the sky is not very cool too Jul 20 10:02:48 * squalyl is back Jul 20 10:03:02 * squalyl is back Jul 20 10:03:06 WTF! Jul 20 10:03:23 I cant leave :) Jul 20 10:05:06 ... on a dark dessert highway... Jul 20 10:05:54 cool wind in my hair? Jul 20 10:06:04 :) Jul 20 10:09:32 * TobiX wants OpenMoko on the NDS ;) Jul 20 10:17:27 Which term do you recognise more? "Hold Music" or "Ringback Tone" Jul 20 10:17:52 wtf is a ringback tone? Jul 20 10:17:55 !googlefight "hold music" "ringback tone" Jul 20 10:18:04 indeed. Jul 20 10:19:10 they are different things Jul 20 10:19:38 ringback tone is the tone you hear when you call someone... Jul 20 10:19:49 prrrp prrrp Jul 20 10:19:53 Ah - yes, I see, the person is confused. Jul 20 10:20:15 In the states, there isn't _that_ important a difference - if you're contemplating implementing it on the phone itself. Jul 20 10:20:40 In the UK - forex, this will get people annoyed at you as they are paying. Jul 20 10:22:48 ewon: Geek NDS pouch: http://heapsort.de/gallery/tobiastech/aah and following - but only usable for the NDS, since the plastic is cut exactly for the lower half of the NDSlite... Jul 20 10:23:22 hmmm Jul 20 10:23:28 SpeedEvil: You cab set "ringup tones" at some mobile providers in Germany... No cost for the caller Jul 20 10:25:25 ewon: The hook is really cool, I can hook the pouch on my belt to listen to music (my headphone cables are long, so I can even close the pouch) or when I'm not using the device at all and can unhook the whole thing if I wannt to use it Jul 20 10:26:23 Arrg, someone set us up the rain! Jul 20 10:28:26 are we still at ticket 1 for confirmation emails ? Jul 20 10:28:42 well, ticket 1820 or whatever it was Jul 20 10:30:17 "You have no chance to stay dry make your time." - And I wanted to go shopping... Jul 20 10:32:10 TobiX: yeah - someones written on the wiki based on the 'free to call mobiles' market there. Jul 20 10:32:15 (well - sort-of) Jul 20 10:32:33 And personally, it's an annoying idea. Jul 20 10:32:52 Confuses the network->user breakover point Jul 20 10:33:49 you'd need the network provider to do it... Jul 20 10:34:14 the same with gsm<->voip handover Jul 20 10:34:35 handover during a call? Jul 20 10:34:46 yah Jul 20 10:34:49 ScaredyCat: You'd _want_ the network provider to do it. Jul 20 10:34:54 - ringback tone Jul 20 10:35:03 you can sort-of-fake-it on the phone Jul 20 10:35:04 you can't do it without Jul 20 10:36:19 and they need to have changed the signaling.. Jul 20 10:36:33 ie pass audio before answer.. Jul 20 10:36:40 generally it's state codes Jul 20 10:38:04 altough I am basing this on my pri experience, not particularly gsm... but I'd expect the same sort of thing, particularly as that sort of thing wont work for gsm to traditional telephony Jul 20 10:38:42 but you can do early pass audio.. Jul 20 10:44:13 hi all Jul 20 10:44:59 is there any plan to release openmoko in a device supporting umts or hsdpa? Jul 20 10:46:05 lol SpeedEvil ... I just read the original... Jul 20 10:46:53 Zenton versions after GTA02 (oct release) are not announced yet... Jul 20 10:46:59 morning everybody Jul 20 10:47:21 ewanm89_laptop: mokobot dead? Jul 20 10:49:47 I miss him :( Jul 20 10:49:47 is nickserv stuffed too ? Jul 20 10:49:47 !! why is libgsmd not compiling anymore?? Jul 20 10:49:47 brb Jul 20 10:50:12 thanks kristian-m Jul 20 10:50:49 wtf!! http://www.pastebin.ca/627505 Jul 20 10:52:01 hi all Jul 20 10:52:43 hi guillaum1 Jul 20 10:53:42 Q: How can you delay milk turning sour? Jul 20 10:53:45 A: Keep it in the cow. Jul 20 10:54:08 :) Jul 20 10:56:47 I'm trying to apply instructions from the "Setting_up_USB_connection" tutorial. Does someone have a problem with gadgetfs on debian etch (stable and testing) ? Jul 20 10:56:47 $ mount -t gadgetfs gadget /dev/gadget Jul 20 10:56:47 $ mount: unknown filesystem type 'gadgetfs' Jul 20 10:57:23 do you have gadgetfs module loaded? Jul 20 10:57:30 ewon, yes Jul 20 10:58:30 lsmod | grep gadgetfs Jul 20 10:58:30 gadgetfs 18352 0 Jul 20 10:58:30 net2280 20240 1 gadgetfs Jul 20 10:59:40 WTF! libgsmd installs well when I only bitbake it, but openmoko-devel-images refuses to build! Jul 20 11:00:24 (with openmoko svn rev 2382) should I report that to bugzilla? Jul 20 11:10:23 * SpeedEvil has added Scotland and Fife. Jul 20 11:10:57 guillaum1, check /proc/filesystems Jul 20 11:12:06 To the local groups Jul 20 11:14:12 Dmitry_Platonov, seems ok Jul 20 11:14:12 $ cat /proc/filesystems | grep gadgetfs Jul 20 11:14:12 $ nodev gadgetfs Jul 20 11:17:09 anything in dmesg? Jul 20 11:17:35 Hello Jul 20 11:18:51 Dmitry_Platonov, nothing special: gadgetfs: USB Gadget filesystem, version 24 Aug 2004 Jul 20 11:19:51 weird Jul 20 11:19:55 has anyone managed to mount the jffs2 image localy yet? (I get "bad superblock on /dev/loop0") Jul 20 11:26:24 counter Jul 20 11:26:24 (last update 2007-07-19 00:49) http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter : Order https://direct.openmoko.com/ ; Shipping prob. 65% in 12:16:45 (0.512±0.5 days) (1762;249) Jul 20 11:27:02 someone already got his P1? Jul 20 11:31:27 kiney: not yet Jul 20 11:31:37 of people who have purchased them. Jul 20 11:40:21 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[User_talk:B.richter]] [[User:B.richter]] [[Sshfs]] [[Wishlist:Human_screening]] [[OpenMoko_Local_Groups:_Fife]] [[OpenMoko_Local_Groups:_Scotland]] [[Category:Calling_Features]] [[OpenMoko_Local_Groups]] [[P1_Owners]] [[Answering_Machine]] and other changes Jul 20 11:41:38 T_T understanding bitbake is a real pain Jul 20 11:42:37 now it fetches my SVN but it cant find my makefile, because it does not execute "make" in the right folder Jul 20 11:43:11 well you've sources... Jul 20 11:43:33 speedevil: ok Jul 20 11:44:29 I guess searching in bb sources will take more time than understanding how "working" recipes work... Jul 20 11:45:20 Nice hardware: http://www.negrielectronics.com/product_info.php?currency=USD&products_id=228 Jul 20 11:48:21 did you see this squalyl? : Jul 20 11:48:22 http://www.openembedded.org/user-manual&dpage=recipes_examples Jul 20 11:48:46 CM: not a nice price Jul 20 11:49:16 indeed Jul 20 11:49:22 I could have 2 mokos for that price Jul 20 11:49:49 I'll have a latte and a double moko to go Jul 20 11:50:24 CM, no GPS too. Jul 20 11:51:28 i´m currently using one of these Jul 20 11:51:32 http://www.imcosys.com/ Jul 20 11:52:01 it runs linux but it´s closed source ..... Jul 20 11:52:19 FuzzyCat: it's way too simple, this example does not use a makefile! Jul 20 11:52:27 not very usefull Jul 20 11:52:55 is Rewriting "do_compile" and "do_install" absolutely necessary? Jul 20 11:53:04 I'm inheriting "autotools" Jul 20 11:53:14 it should do the job... Jul 20 11:55:13 heh, autotools Jul 20 11:55:16 1 - My package is in a separate tree, not directly in oe or openmoko packages/ subdirs Jul 20 11:55:17 there's an example of that on the mokomakefile page Jul 20 11:55:20 autotools is worse than paedophiles. Jul 20 11:55:24 lol Jul 20 11:56:08 most working packages are built with that, so why mine won't? Jul 20 11:56:18 it's a pain the arse to get working Jul 20 11:56:40 makefile.am haunts my dreams Jul 20 11:56:58 indeed my test is more simpler than that. Jul 20 11:57:03 2 .c files and a makefile Jul 20 11:57:24 BUT it's not in the openmoko or openembedded tree Jul 20 11:57:39 so I added my path to $BBPATH Jul 20 11:58:06 this way, bitbake does not even see my package, I have to use bitbake -b Jul 20 11:58:21 it's too much problems in the same time T_T Jul 20 12:00:13 BBPATH = /home/squalyl/OM/build:/home/squalyl/OM/openmoko/trunk/oe:/home/squalyl/OM/openembedded:/home/squalyl/mypackages/oe Jul 20 12:00:37 /home/squalyl/mypackages/oe contains a packages/ subdir Jul 20 12:01:17 I cd into the normal dir (given in the wiki) : cd /home/squalyl/OM/build && bitbake mypackagename Jul 20 12:01:42 results in ERROR: No providers of build target mypackagename (for []) Jul 20 12:10:58 squalyl: you live in Paris? Jul 20 12:11:27 yes Jul 20 12:15:33 * mokobot hands ScaredyCat Jason1's neo Jul 20 12:17:49 lol Jul 20 12:26:50 squalyl: I hope the weather gets better when I get there. Going on a trip there Aug 12 Jul 20 12:31:01 sandos :) There's no rain, but it's not as sunny as we can expect in July... For a trip, it's not bad, you'll avoid toasting! Jul 20 12:34:41 squalyl: ah. Same thing here in Sweden, more cloud and rain than a regular summer, but no disaster I guess :) Jul 20 12:34:51 rain here :( Jul 20 12:35:27 rain here too... Jul 20 12:36:31 where are you from, guys? Jul 20 12:36:44 Ireland, Sweden, France... and others? Jul 20 12:36:56 In germany it's sunny :) Jul 20 12:36:58 * summatusmentis is from ME, US Jul 20 12:36:58 * ScaredyCat is currently in .nl until monday Jul 20 12:37:05 Dmitry_Platonov, DUMMY_HCD module is not compiled in default 2.6.21 debian kernel. It might the cause of the problem with gadgetfs. I'm gonna compile a custom kernel... Jul 20 12:37:14 * guillaum1 is from Paris, France Jul 20 12:37:55 Vienna, Austria verry hot 38°c Jul 20 12:38:05 netherlands, rain Jul 20 12:38:17 quickdev: where in germany? Jul 20 12:38:32 * Stephmw is currently in the UK Jul 20 12:38:53 hey Stephmw Jul 20 12:39:00 * ewon is in Dublin, IE Jul 20 12:39:19 however, I'm moving to Santa Monica, CA next month Jul 20 12:39:35 I will visit London with my girlfriend on Aug 20-23, hope it will not rain :) Jul 20 12:39:54 hey guillaume :) Jul 20 12:40:09 squalyl: it's not looking too good for you atm Jul 20 12:40:36 squalyl: torrential downpours today, flood warrnings and over 30cm rainfall where I work... lots of flooded roads Jul 20 12:40:47 raining all freakin day here Jul 20 12:41:02 edistar_: north-west germany ;) Jul 20 12:41:11 quickdev: city? Jul 20 12:41:17 quickdev: ;) Jul 20 12:41:17 bielefeld Jul 20 12:41:24 quickdev: ah,well, lucky you ;) Jul 20 12:41:28 and 2 drowned cats :( Jul 20 12:41:34 edistar_: where are you from? Jul 20 12:41:39 quickdev: I'm near duisburg and it's raining suddenly Jul 20 12:41:42 Stephmw > We have a full month before we come :) Jul 20 12:42:20 quickdev: even lightening ;) but I hope it will go away again soon Jul 20 12:42:41 squalyl: here's hoping for you - this whole summer has been rainy and cold Jul 20 12:44:44 I have a big question that may help me Jul 20 12:44:58 http://www.engadget.com/2007/07/19/iphone-says-hello-world-here-come-the-3rd-party-apps/ Jul 20 12:45:03 how do bitbake links package name "myhello" and bb file? Jul 20 12:45:16 ewon \o/ I saw that Jul 20 12:48:30 squalyl: link? Jul 20 12:48:46 squalyl: each bb file has a PN (PackageName) which is either set or extracted from the filename Jul 20 12:49:34 okay for that Jul 20 12:49:49 I think my problem comes from my new "packages" source Jul 20 12:50:09 my pakage is in a new directory, to insulate it from official openmoko packages Jul 20 12:50:22 I realized that SITE.CONF contains a list of packages sources Jul 20 12:50:35 I think I have to add my directory there Jul 20 12:51:01 answer: no. Same error. f***k Jul 20 12:52:30 Moscow, Russia. Light clouds. Jul 20 12:52:48 squalyl: what is your definition of package source? Jul 20 12:53:23 squalyl: as documented in the awesome manual no one is reading, BBFILES is used to find buildable files Jul 20 12:54:39 yeah Jul 20 12:54:42 I know Jul 20 12:54:55 [squalyl@localhost myhello]$ echo $BBPATH Jul 20 12:54:58 /home/squalyl/OM/build:/home/squalyl/ftrd/oe:/home/squalyl/OM/openmoko/trunk/oe:/home/squalyl/OM/openembedded Jul 20 12:55:12 I added my new path Jul 20 12:56:24 squalyl: you might know but don't read. BBFILES != BBPATH Jul 20 12:56:42 squalyl: BBPATH is used to find configuration files, classes Jul 20 12:57:01 i did not catch that Jul 20 12:57:03 sorry Jul 20 12:57:14 I read but I though they were related Jul 20 12:57:15 anyone successfully build minimo recently? Jul 20 12:57:28 ACTION  Jul 20 12:57:32 ie BBFILES = find *.bb in $BBPATH Jul 20 12:57:36 thanks for that Jul 20 12:57:53 BryceLeo: last time on tueasday Jul 20 12:58:06 squalyl: BBPATH for stuff like include("conf/bitbake.conf") to find the righ file Jul 20 12:58:18 okay Jul 20 12:58:20 squalyl: BBFILES to be informed which .bb files to take into account Jul 20 12:58:29 \o/ Jul 20 12:58:33 ok, well that's sort of good news Jul 20 12:58:37 thanks Jul 20 13:02:43 YES Jul 20 13:03:09 it worked (partially) I see a new file was added in the list (now 4354 instead of 4353) Jul 20 13:03:31 I added a BBFILE += ........ in local.conf Jul 20 13:03:39 I mean BBFILES+= Jul 20 13:11:14 Is there already an instant messaging programm for openmoko? Jul 20 13:11:54 irssi for sure Jul 20 13:13:12 lol Jul 20 13:13:27 yeah, but unless you have a bt kb it'll be painful Jul 20 13:13:43 It won't be usable through gprs? Jul 20 13:14:20 well, yeah .... I use Qirc on my p910i over gprs.. Jul 20 13:14:36 it's more a keyboard issue Jul 20 13:14:45 typing will be slow Jul 20 13:16:09 ah...ok :P Jul 20 13:18:25 for me it's important to be idle on irc, not to type :) Jul 20 13:19:36 wouldn;t it be better to use a permanent location then, fire up screen and connect from the neo occasionaly Jul 20 13:20:01 then it's not 100% mobile! Jul 20 13:20:58 lol so you just need to know that in your pocket you have the power to lurk irc? Jul 20 13:21:04 very nice ynezz Jul 20 13:21:48 it was j/k, i'm running irssi,centericq,mutt in screen and using it from everywhere Jul 20 13:24:11 simple and effective, nice solution Jul 20 13:24:42 ~sing Jul 20 13:24:42 here's a moko, there's a moko, and another open moko, fuzzy moko, funny moko, moko, moko, duck. Jul 20 13:24:43 here's a moko, there's a moko, and another open moko, fuzzy moko, funny moko, moko, moko, duck. Jul 20 13:24:43 "Night fever, night fever. You know how to do it!" Jul 20 13:25:08 lol Jul 20 13:25:45 2mokobots? Jul 20 13:25:50 ^^ Jul 20 13:27:11 on my nokia 770 I can install irssi but it is not at all useful as there is no ALT key.. very annoying.. can't even use it with screen then Jul 20 13:28:15 Um, we'll have to creat mokofied versions. Jul 20 13:28:26 ~sing Jul 20 13:28:27 here's a moko, there's a moko, and another open moko, fuzzy moko, funny moko, moko, moko, duck. Jul 20 13:28:27 here's a moko, there's a moko, and another open moko, fuzzy moko, funny moko, moko, moko, duck. Jul 20 13:28:27 * apt sings off key Whaohwooaaoooaaah! Good bye 70s! Jul 20 13:28:50 ewanm89_laptop: openmoko has no ALT either? :( Jul 20 13:29:06 it does Jul 20 13:29:08 edistar: It might do. Jul 20 13:29:10 not the openmoko keyboard Jul 20 13:29:13 but the other one Jul 20 13:29:26 hm Jul 20 13:29:39 well, I'll see ;) Jul 20 13:29:40 So not on the onscreen one? Jul 20 13:30:03 I think the onscreen one needs CTRL and ALT at least Jul 20 13:30:34 at least for the shell ;) Jul 20 13:31:05 edistar: But it'll be very slow using hem, we cn come up with a much better solution. Jul 20 13:31:18 ewanm89_laptop: why slow? Jul 20 13:31:45 ewanm89_laptop: and if we modify the software that needs the shortcuts it's not a general solution.. Jul 20 13:31:50 Because they are keys that are made to be held down. Jul 20 13:32:09 edistar: I was thinking of something else. Jul 20 13:32:16 ewanm89_laptop: ah Jul 20 13:32:25 ewanm89_laptop: please tell ;) Jul 20 13:33:04 like maybe circle clockwise on a letter for ctrl, anticlockwise for alt, and tht letter? Jul 20 13:33:51 What do you think? Jul 20 13:34:27 sounds cool somehow Jul 20 13:34:31 ewanm89_laptop like a dropdown, right? Jul 20 13:34:57 kristian-m: I was thinking just circle one way or the other? Jul 20 13:35:11 that sounds like a good gesture if you can detect it. Jul 20 13:35:19 Well, it's another text input idea. Jul 20 13:35:26 why circle? up for uppercase, down for ctrl, right for alt Jul 20 13:35:33 it's even faster then circle Jul 20 13:35:42 and left for enter maybe Jul 20 13:35:52 easier to wind up at your target with a spiral. Jul 20 13:36:17 circle is much more fun ;) Jul 20 13:36:35 but you have only two posibilities for bindings then Jul 20 13:36:37 posibly, I thought there might be other things, it depends on the text input system that gets used in the end, see th wiki? Jul 20 13:36:50 and with left/righ/up/down you've 4... Jul 20 13:37:08 ynezz: I thought the other four might be being used in a different way. Jul 20 13:37:11 down for lower case :) Jul 20 13:37:18 it's default :) Jul 20 13:37:32 so what's shift lock ? Jul 20 13:37:32 The onscreen one does have ctrl and alt. Jul 20 13:37:43 man, this billing/shipping process is comical Jul 20 13:38:06 It was only an idea. Jul 20 13:38:20 They are blessed, who are easily amused. Jul 20 13:38:21 but you have to press 2 keys for ctrl+c Jul 20 13:38:43 or just press c and move stylus left for ctrl+c Jul 20 13:38:52 ynezz: Hence my idea. Jul 20 13:38:56 yep Jul 20 13:39:15 it's on windows like this Jul 20 13:39:25 s/windows/wince/ Jul 20 13:39:26 ynezz meant: it's on wince like this Jul 20 13:39:58 so it's (c)(tm)(r) probably :p Jul 20 13:40:18 but moko have ninja... Jul 20 13:40:22 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Userspace_root_image]] [[Wishlist:Tagging]] [[Wishlist:Set_Local_Time]] [[Wish_List]] [[Wishlist:Go]] [[Reader]] [[Sshfs]] [[Wish_List_-_Hardware_-_Atmospheric]] [[Wifidog_Hotspot_Finder]] [[USB_Networking]] [[USB_Connection_Status]] and other changes Jul 20 13:40:22 galexande: it is only 6:40am at the moment, we can let them off a little :) Jul 20 13:40:26 So we'll used circles instead (after all I came up with this idea)? Jul 20 13:40:40 use what you want :) Jul 20 13:41:02 scaredy, eh? it looks from my perspective like they've had our credit card numbers for 11 days and still haven't figured out how to run a transaction through Jul 20 13:41:03 we want configurable gestures Jul 20 13:41:05 running code, man. that's where it's at. Jul 20 13:41:06 ynezz: You seen the text input wiki page? Jul 20 13:41:15 nope Jul 20 13:41:25 http://wiki.openmoko.org/images/7/75/Stylus_06_input_keypad.png will the keyboard be moveable? on this pic it looks like its floating.. Jul 20 13:41:30 galexande: you don;t have to convince me... Jul 20 13:41:32 i'm not going to type text on moko Jul 20 13:41:42 yow. that's certainly nicely sculpted. Jul 20 13:41:43 I already think it's crappy Jul 20 13:41:57 it's past crappy all the way to hillarious Jul 20 13:42:20 if you filmed their office and cut out the boring parts it'd be a three stooges ep Jul 20 13:42:27 that keyboard needs to be bigger - fat fingers n all Jul 20 13:42:35 lol galexande Jul 20 13:42:55 I suspect it's majorly un-fun to be working in that office right now. Jul 20 13:43:09 we want bluetooth finger attachments... Jul 20 13:43:20 wiggle your fingers to type Jul 20 13:43:34 i want a bluetooth eeg Jul 20 13:43:46 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Wishlist:Text_Input Jul 20 13:44:46 edistar no it's not, yet Jul 20 13:44:58 when will who decide which input will be implemented? Jul 20 13:45:19 edistar, you will decide whenever you want Jul 20 13:45:48 i will see to it that my pie menueseque thing gets ported, for example Jul 20 13:45:53 edistar there are already thee available in there. Jul 20 13:45:59 edistar just go ahead and code on - then it's implemented Jul 20 13:46:20 why isn't xstroke in this list? Jul 20 13:46:21 xstroke is great Jul 20 13:46:26 and works with matchbox great Jul 20 13:46:42 galexande: You could always add it, it is a wiki. Jul 20 13:46:45 kristian-m: hm ;) well, it is practical to have loads of methods available? Seems confusing to me Jul 20 13:46:50 * kristian-m thinks a qwerty in landscape with one preview textfield would be the best. Jul 20 13:47:16 dvorak for the win! Jul 20 13:47:24 cjb_ie: lol Jul 20 13:47:34 noone will get used to dvorak on the moko! Jul 20 13:47:50 i will! actually, no, i won't, because i'm already used to it. Jul 20 13:47:52 what is dvorak? Jul 20 13:47:55 edistar: Unless they already use dvorak ;) Jul 20 13:47:56 a keyboard type? Jul 20 13:48:01 a keyboard layout Jul 20 13:48:10 a layout that isn't designed to slow down your typing like qwerty was Jul 20 13:48:11 loufoque: A layout more specifically. Jul 20 13:48:31 qwerty was designed to stop typewriters jamming. Jul 20 13:48:46 qwerty was designed in the 1860s along with the first typewriters and was designed to slow peoples' typing down so the typewriters wouldn't jam Jul 20 13:49:16 that's a myth Jul 20 13:49:38 With digital keyboards it's nolonger a problem, so dvorak created the keyboard that most fits typing english. Jul 20 13:49:39 dvorak is for pretentious cocks who don't want other people to use their computers. Jul 20 13:49:46 that's also a myth Jul 20 13:49:57 (My wife uses Dvorak, and she's really not pretentious) Jul 20 13:50:35 * ewon grins Jul 20 13:50:37 all the qwerty creation stories are myths, but the layout is still insanely stupid Jul 20 13:50:38 it's a keyboard layout, make it cofigurable Jul 20 13:50:40 The qwerty designed-to-be-slow myth was actually promulgated by the Dvorak guys to get the Army to pay to adopt their system. Jul 20 13:50:49 It wasn't to slow them down, it was so that the bar next to it wasn't likely to be the next to move (causin a jam), a problem with mechanics at the time. Jul 20 13:50:55 THe actual reason for qwerty was to optimize typing speed. Jul 20 13:51:02 RIght. Jul 20 13:51:16 mellon: No, it was to stop jams. Jul 20 13:51:26 qwerty is especially bad on typewriters because all the sequential letters (rate, for example) are close together Jul 20 13:51:27 right, to optimize typing speed. Jul 20 13:51:27 mellon: yet all the commonly-used keys need lots more effort to reach than on dvorak Jul 20 13:51:28 traffic jams Jul 20 13:51:38 so the hammers have to go all the way back down before you press the next one, whereas if they were on alternate hands like dvorak it wouldn't have this problem. Jul 20 13:52:02 Nope, no matter what typing system you have, you can type fast enough to jam a manual typewriter. Jul 20 13:52:04 galexande: Wrong way around. Jul 20 13:52:09 ewan, qwerty is acutally worse about that than most layouts Jul 20 13:52:10 Trust me, I know. :') Jul 20 13:52:17 well... fact is that most people will want to keep qwerty.. and on a touchscreen I think noone will gain any advantages from dvorak.. Jul 20 13:52:30 they may have designed it to be the other way around, but they were obviiously kernel hackers designing keyboard layouts :) Jul 20 13:52:42 yeah on a touchscreen we might as well offer qwerty and ABCd Jul 20 13:52:44 galexande: lol Jul 20 13:52:46 the advantage to supporting multiple layouts is simply that the people who are used to a particular layout on their regular keyboard will be faster on that layout on the screen. Jul 20 13:52:52 edistar: my p910i drives me _mental_ that its touchscreen is qwerty only Jul 20 13:53:12 as i recall, xkbd is prretty configurable Jul 20 13:53:16 * ScaredyCat uses flip down kb Jul 20 13:53:33 I think a ThinkOutside stowaway is the clear winner here... :') Jul 20 13:53:35 cjb_ie: I can imagine.. Jul 20 13:53:37 the flip down keyb on the p910 is just horrid though. Jul 20 13:54:25 I would like to learn dvorak but as I type a lot on other pcs I think it won't help much Jul 20 13:55:05 It gets you about a 5% speedup. And it's good if you have RSI problems. Otherwise, don't bother. Jul 20 13:55:05 edistar: Any keyboard cn be set to dvorak, just ignore the letters on the keys. Jul 20 13:55:12 so I think only having it in openmoko won't help, but why not let the user choose? Aren't the keys just mapped differently? Jul 20 13:55:30 edistar: yes. Jul 20 13:55:40 it took me about two months to learn dvorak, and then another two months to become bikeyboardal, and on top of that two weeks to relearn vi in qwerty :) Jul 20 13:56:47 so I don't see any problems... just remap the icons on each key and the keymap... could even be an additional factor for adverts.. Jul 20 13:57:06 i'm fairly certain that with xkbd, it is trivial Jul 20 13:57:10 at worst it is changing a .h file Jul 20 13:58:31 Um, I'm not sure on the strokes in openmokos stroke recogniser, anyone know? Jul 20 13:58:44 i assume no more news on the shipping dates right? Jul 20 13:58:57 nope. it's 7am in california. Jul 20 13:59:03 openmoko has a stroker? Jul 20 13:59:10 You would want to change the keyboard image too. Jul 20 13:59:13 xstroke will run on openmoko easily, and it is great Jul 20 13:59:14 galexande: Yes Jul 20 13:59:20 A "stroker"? Jul 20 13:59:27 It has one there already. Jul 20 13:59:34 O_o Jul 20 13:59:40 oh right, matthew allum or someoen integrated xstroke++ into matchbox? Jul 20 14:00:19 xstroke is a mix between palm graffiti and english, i suspect most peolpe would take that route Jul 20 14:00:52 test Jul 20 14:00:58 s/english/latin? Jul 20 14:01:50 I will get mad X_X Jul 20 14:01:56 http://www.pastebin.ca/627724 Jul 20 14:02:04 why do it UPDATE and not CHECKOUT !! Jul 20 14:02:21 galexande: Got a list of the stroke++ mappings? Jul 20 14:02:42 squalyl: update only gets changes. Jul 20 14:03:02 oh, matchbox-stroke is derived from xstroke but uses xml to specify the strokes, so we could redialect it trivially Jul 20 14:03:33 ewanm89_laptop > I know that but I do want it to checkout my project completely Jul 20 14:04:08 nice jmirc runs on the imcosys :) Jul 20 14:04:15 do_fetch should get all the source before configuring it ! Jul 20 14:05:19 galexande: straight down gives a 2 atm? Jul 20 14:05:53 It will take me a complete day to compile int main() { printf("hello world\n"); } in openmoko! Jul 20 14:06:14 eep, matchbox-stroke uses xstroke's system. you draw a character and when you're done it maps it to a 3x3 grid, like the number pad, so a diagonal line from upper-right to lower-left generates the string "951", and then theh XML file has a line like Jul 20 14:06:20 actually, that would be carriage return probably Jul 20 14:06:59 ewan, Jul 20 14:07:11 i don't know how his uh "regex" there works :) Jul 20 14:07:13 hello guys Jul 20 14:07:47 galexande: All I get is a white box to do it in, and some odd mappings. Jul 20 14:08:55 well, if you get xstroke, numbers and letters are at least pretty trivial :) Jul 20 14:09:09 and you can draw on any application, rather than in a little box Jul 20 14:09:30 (in other words, i'm out of date on the issue, but there are great solutions out there) Jul 20 14:10:01 It goes int the app, but the box to draw on is th bottom half of the screen. Jul 20 14:11:50 umm.. can i ask you some questions? Jul 20 14:11:50 OGrandeDiEnne: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (and also SH1_FAQ, Neo1973, Developer_preview and Neo1973_Hardware#GTA01Bv4 pages) (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.) Jul 20 14:13:00 ok.. i see the faq frist Jul 20 14:13:08 first Jul 20 14:14:13 This RTFM bot is impressive when you come here first... ^^ Jul 20 14:15:17 squalyl see http://forums.gregarius.net/comments.php?DiscussionID=289 Jul 20 14:15:48 squalyl maybe you can try "svn switch svn://svn.unsads.com/squalyl/ftrd/src/;proto=https;module=myhello" or something Jul 20 14:16:24 squalyl: You mean aloril Jul 20 14:16:31 I cant try anything since this thing is handled by bitbake itself Jul 20 14:17:05 squalyl: Can't bitbake handle a download of a tar.gz? Jul 20 14:17:11 we need a moko compile farm Jul 20 14:17:14 I dont try something strange, I just try to get checkout working for my package, it already works for other openmoko packages ! Jul 20 14:17:38 ewarnm > I dont download the tar gz by svn Jul 20 14:17:47 I checkout the normal source tree Jul 20 14:17:58 squalyl: I know, and learn to use tab please. Jul 20 14:18:06 heh Jul 20 14:18:13 ewanm89_laptop: truly sorry Jul 20 14:18:25 But isn't it easier to use a tar.gz? Jul 20 14:18:56 Zip up everything in the repo and get it to download. Jul 20 14:19:12 Yes it is, but I am constantly working on the source now, so it would prevent me from rebuilding a tarball everytime I change a line Jul 20 14:19:42 I know this feature works, other packages use it. Jul 20 14:20:37 squalyl: pastebin your bitbake file. Jul 20 14:21:28 squalyl: you have issues reading manuals, right? Jul 20 14:22:07 squalyl: I haven't followed your conversation but there are examples of using svn in the bitbake manual, and there are +100 examples in OE itself Jul 20 14:22:25 http://www.pastebin.ca/627744 Jul 20 14:22:37 zecke > read my bb file first Jul 20 14:22:42 Can someone try wget http://b030.tfh-berlin.de/OpenMoko-Dev-x86_2007-07-16.img.bz2 ? Jul 20 14:22:46 It breaks for me. Jul 20 14:22:58 For reasons I'm not entirely sure of - downloads a coupleof K Jul 20 14:23:13 SpeedEvil: no problem here Jul 20 14:23:14 works fine Jul 20 14:23:21 Hey, it's Bill Gates' lover boy Jul 20 14:23:21 Hey, it's Bill Gates' lover boy Jul 20 14:23:30 o0 Jul 20 14:23:31 squalyl: what is the issue? Jul 20 14:23:44 Odd. Jul 20 14:23:46 SpeedEvil: http://www.pastebin.ca/627746 Jul 20 14:23:53 Works for broeswe Jul 20 14:23:54 bitbake tries to do an update instead of a checkout Jul 20 14:23:58 dtx: are you gonna take that from mokobot ? Jul 20 14:24:14 interesting. alt+a cycles through your active windows in irssi. I never knew Jul 20 14:25:10 summatusmentis: And it can go back in there quite easily. Jul 20 14:25:26 hi all Jul 20 14:25:38 Hi Jul 20 14:27:39 SpeedEvil the server is up and running - everythin seems fine - maybe you can use wget -c Jul 20 14:29:01 mokobot's are fun Jul 20 14:29:07 mokobots* Jul 20 14:29:37 dtx: Um, but the other one won't even give me the help listing. Jul 20 14:29:52 mokobot_: rot13 zbxbobg: ebg13 mokobot_: rot13 zbxbobg: ebg13 mokobot_: rot13 zbxbobg: ebg13 mokobot_: rot13 zbxbobg: ebg13 mokobot_: rot13 zbxbobg: ebg13 mokobot_: rot13 zbxbobg: ebg13 mokobot_: rot13 zbxbobg: ebg13 mokobot_: rot13 zbxbobg: ebg13 mokobot_: rot13 zbxbobg: ebg13 mokobot_: rot13 V gnxr hc gur frevny cbeg. Jul 20 14:29:56 ah Jul 20 14:29:58 thats sad Jul 20 14:30:31 kristian-m: no - it's doing something _odd_ Jul 20 14:30:31 mokobot: 6*7 Jul 20 14:30:32 42 Jul 20 14:30:32 42 Jul 20 14:30:37 dtx: It's seems to have managed to geet 2 nicks. Jul 20 14:31:23 apt: rot13 zbxbobg: ebg13 apt: rot13 zbxbobg: ebg13 apt: rot13 zbxbobg: ebg13 apt: rot13 zbxbobg: ebg13 apt: rot13 zbxbobg: ebg13 apt: rot13 zbxbobg: ebg13 apt: rot13 zbxbobg: ebg13 apt: rot13 zbxbobg: ebg13 apt: rot13 zbxbobg: ebg13 apt: rot13 zbxbobg: ebg13 apt: rot13 zbxbobg: ebg13 apt: rot13 zbxbobg: ebg13 apt: rot13 zbxbobg: ebg13 apt: rot13 zbxbobg: ebg13 apt: rot13 zbxbobg: ebg13 apt: rot13 V gnxr hc gur frevny cbeg. Jul 20 14:31:23 mokobot: rot13 ncg: ebg13 mokobot: rot13 ncg: ebg13 mokobot: rot13 ncg: ebg13 mokobot: rot13 ncg: ebg13 mokobot: rot13 ncg: ebg13 mokobot: rot13 ncg: ebg13 mokobot: rot13 ncg: ebg13 mokobot: rot13 ncg: ebg13 mokobot: rot13 ncg: ebg13 mokobot: rot13 ncg: ebg13 mokobot: rot13 ncg: ebg13 mokobot: rot13 ncg: ebg13 mokobot: rot13 ncg: ebg13 mokobot: rot13 ncg: ebg13 ... Jul 20 14:31:23 apt: rot13 zbxbobg: ebg13 apt: rot13 zbxbobg: ebg13 apt: rot13 zbxbobg: ebg13 apt: rot13 zbxbobg: ebg13 apt: rot13 zbxbobg: ebg13 apt: rot13 zbxbobg: ebg13 apt: rot13 zbxbobg: ebg13 apt: rot13 zbxbobg: ebg13 apt: rot13 zbxbobg: ebg13 apt: rot13 zbxbobg: ebg13 apt: rot13 zbxbobg: ebg13 apt: rot13 zbxbobg: ebg13 apt: rot13 zbxbobg: ebg13 apt: rot13 ... Jul 20 14:31:23 apt: rot13 zbxbobg: ebg13 apt: rot13 zbxbobg: ebg13 apt: rot13 zbxbobg: ebg13 apt: rot13 zbxbobg: ebg13 apt: rot13 zbxbobg: ebg13 apt: rot13 zbxbobg: ebg13 apt: rot13 zbxbobg: ebg13 apt: rot13 zbxbobg: ebg13 apt: rot13 zbxbobg: ebg13 apt: rot13 zbxbobg: ebg13 apt: rot13 zbxbobg: ebg13 apt: rot13 zbxbobg: ebg13 apt: rot13 zbxbobg: ebg13 apt: rot13 ... Jul 20 14:31:23 mokobot: rot13 ncg: ebg13 mokobot: rot13 ncg: ebg13 mokobot: rot13 ncg: ebg13 mokobot: rot13 ncg: ebg13 mokobot: rot13 ncg: ebg13 mokobot: rot13 ncg: ebg13 mokobot: rot13 ncg: ebg13 mokobot: rot13 ncg: ebg13 mokobot: rot13 ncg: ebg13 mokobot: rot13 ncg: ebg13 mokobot: rot13 ncg: ebg13 mokobot: rot13 ncg: ebg13 mokobot: rot13 ncg: ebg13 ... Jul 20 14:31:24 apt: rot13 zbxbobg: ebg13 apt: rot13 zbxbobg: ebg13 apt: rot13 zbxbobg: ebg13 apt: rot13 zbxbobg: ebg13 apt: rot13 zbxbobg: ebg13 apt: rot13 zbxbobg: ebg13 apt: rot13 zbxbobg: ebg13 apt: rot13 zbxbobg: ebg13 apt: rot13 zbxbobg: ebg13 apt: rot13 zbxbobg: ebg13 apt: rot13 zbxbobg: ebg13 apt: rot13 zbxbobg: ebg13 apt: rot13 ... Jul 20 14:31:24 apt: rot13 zbxbobg: ebg13 apt: rot13 zbxbobg: ebg13 apt: rot13 zbxbobg: ebg13 apt: rot13 zbxbobg: ebg13 apt: rot13 zbxbobg: ebg13 apt: rot13 zbxbobg: ebg13 apt: rot13 zbxbobg: ebg13 apt: rot13 zbxbobg: ebg13 apt: rot13 zbxbobg: ebg13 apt: rot13 zbxbobg: ebg13 apt: rot13 zbxbobg: ebg13 apt: rot13 zbxbobg: ebg13 apt: rot13 ... Jul 20 14:31:25 mokobot: rot13 ncg: ebg13 mokobot: rot13 ncg: ebg13 mokobot: rot13 ncg: ebg13 mokobot: rot13 ncg: ebg13 mokobot: rot13 ncg: ebg13 mokobot: rot13 ncg: ebg13 mokobot: rot13 ncg: ebg13 mokobot: rot13 ncg: ebg13 mokobot: rot13 ncg: ebg13 mokobot: rot13 ncg: ebg13 mokobot: rot13 ncg: ebg13 mokobot: rot13 ncg: ebg13 ... Jul 20 14:31:25 apt: rot13 zbxbobg: ebg13 apt: rot13 zbxbobg: ebg13 apt: rot13 zbxbobg: ebg13 apt: rot13 zbxbobg: ebg13 apt: rot13 zbxbobg: ebg13 apt: rot13 zbxbobg: ebg13 apt: rot13 zbxbobg: ebg13 apt: rot13 zbxbobg: ebg13 apt: rot13 zbxbobg: ebg13 apt: rot13 zbxbobg: ebg13 apt: rot13 zbxbobg: ebg13 apt: rot13 ... Jul 20 14:31:25 apt: rot13 zbxbobg: ebg13 apt: rot13 zbxbobg: ebg13 apt: rot13 zbxbobg: ebg13 apt: rot13 zbxbobg: ebg13 apt: rot13 zbxbobg: ebg13 apt: rot13 zbxbobg: ebg13 apt: rot13 zbxbobg: ebg13 apt: rot13 zbxbobg: ebg13 apt: rot13 zbxbobg: ebg13 apt: rot13 zbxbobg: ebg13 apt: rot13 zbxbobg: ebg13 apt: rot13 ... Jul 20 14:31:29 aaaah Jul 20 14:31:30 mokobot: rot13 ncg: ebg13 mokobot: rot13 ncg: ebg13 mokobot: rot13 ncg: ebg13 mokobot: rot13 ncg: ebg13 mokobot: rot13 ncg: ebg13 mokobot: rot13 ncg: ebg13 mokobot: rot13 ncg: ebg13 mokobot: rot13 ncg: ebg13 mokobot: rot13 ncg: ebg13 mokobot: rot13 ncg: ebg13 mokobot: rot13 ncg: ebg13 ... Jul 20 14:31:31 apt: rot13 zbxbobg: ebg13 apt: rot13 zbxbobg: ebg13 apt: rot13 zbxbobg: ebg13 apt: rot13 zbxbobg: ebg13 apt: rot13 zbxbobg: ebg13 apt: rot13 zbxbobg: ebg13 apt: rot13 zbxbobg: ebg13 apt: rot13 zbxbobg: ebg13 apt: rot13 zbxbobg: ebg13 apt: rot13 zbxbobg: ebg13 apt: rot13 ... Jul 20 14:31:31 apt: rot13 zbxbobg: ebg13 apt: rot13 zbxbobg: ebg13 apt: rot13 zbxbobg: ebg13 apt: rot13 zbxbobg: ebg13 apt: rot13 zbxbobg: ebg13 apt: rot13 zbxbobg: ebg13 apt: rot13 zbxbobg: ebg13 apt: rot13 zbxbobg: ebg13 apt: rot13 zbxbobg: ebg13 apt: rot13 zbxbobg: ebg13 apt: rot13 ... Jul 20 14:31:31 They can still play with each other Jul 20 14:31:36 mokobot: rot13 ncg: ebg13 mokobot: rot13 ncg: ebg13 mokobot: rot13 ncg: ebg13 mokobot: rot13 ncg: ebg13 mokobot: rot13 ncg: ebg13 mokobot: rot13 ncg: ebg13 mokobot: rot13 ncg: ebg13 mokobot: rot13 ncg: ebg13 mokobot: rot13 ncg: ebg13 mokobot: rot13 ncg: ebg13 ... Jul 20 14:31:37 apt: rot13 zbxbobg: ebg13 apt: rot13 zbxbobg: ebg13 apt: rot13 zbxbobg: ebg13 apt: rot13 zbxbobg: ebg13 apt: rot13 zbxbobg: ebg13 apt: rot13 zbxbobg: ebg13 apt: rot13 zbxbobg: ebg13 apt: rot13 zbxbobg: ebg13 apt: rot13 zbxbobg: ebg13 apt: rot13 ... Jul 20 14:31:37 apt: rot13 zbxbobg: ebg13 apt: rot13 zbxbobg: ebg13 apt: rot13 zbxbobg: ebg13 apt: rot13 zbxbobg: ebg13 apt: rot13 zbxbobg: ebg13 apt: rot13 zbxbobg: ebg13 apt: rot13 zbxbobg: ebg13 apt: rot13 zbxbobg: ebg13 apt: rot13 zbxbobg: ebg13 apt: rot13 ... Jul 20 14:31:41 christ almighty, kick one of them Jul 20 14:31:42 mokobot: rot13 ncg: ebg13 mokobot: rot13 ncg: ebg13 mokobot: rot13 ncg: ebg13 mokobot: rot13 ncg: ebg13 mokobot: rot13 ncg: ebg13 mokobot: rot13 ncg: ebg13 mokobot: rot13 ncg: ebg13 mokobot: rot13 ncg: ebg13 mokobot: rot13 ncg: ebg13 ... Jul 20 14:31:43 apt: rot13 zbxbobg: ebg13 apt: rot13 zbxbobg: ebg13 apt: rot13 zbxbobg: ebg13 apt: rot13 zbxbobg: ebg13 apt: rot13 zbxbobg: ebg13 apt: rot13 zbxbobg: ebg13 apt: rot13 zbxbobg: ebg13 apt: rot13 zbxbobg: ebg13 apt: rot13 ... Jul 20 14:31:43 apt: rot13 zbxbobg: ebg13 apt: rot13 zbxbobg: ebg13 apt: rot13 zbxbobg: ebg13 apt: rot13 zbxbobg: ebg13 apt: rot13 zbxbobg: ebg13 apt: rot13 zbxbobg: ebg13 apt: rot13 zbxbobg: ebg13 apt: rot13 zbxbobg: ebg13 apt: rot13 ... Jul 20 14:31:43 mokobot: help Jul 20 14:31:46 mokobot: help Jul 20 14:31:47 sw337 Jul 20 14:31:47 mokobot: help Jul 20 14:31:48 mokobot: rot13 ncg: ebg13 mokobot: rot13 ncg: ebg13 mokobot: rot13 ncg: ebg13 mokobot: rot13 ncg: ebg13 mokobot: rot13 ncg: ebg13 mokobot: rot13 ncg: ebg13 mokobot: rot13 ncg: ebg13 mokobot: rot13 ncg: ebg13 ... Jul 20 14:31:53 Length: -948,847,521 [text/plain] Jul 20 14:31:58 [ <=> ] 1,072 1.02M/s Jul 20 14:31:58 15:31:42 (1.02 MB/s) - `OpenMoko-Dev-x86_2007-07-16.img.bz2' saved [1072/-948847521]) Jul 20 14:32:12 mokobomb Jul 20 14:32:25 dtx: you totally crashed it. Jul 20 14:32:40 mokobot: 21*2 Jul 20 14:32:40 Kids These Days Jul 20 14:32:47 poor bot Jul 20 14:32:54 I didn't crash it Jul 20 14:33:08 They just got kicked cuz they were flooding the channel. Those asshole bots Jul 20 14:33:11 ;-) Jul 20 14:33:39 apt: rot13 V gnxr hc gur frevny cbeg. Jul 20 14:33:39 I take up the serial port. Jul 20 14:33:43 whoops Jul 20 14:33:52 dtx: It didn't kick, it crashed. Jul 20 14:34:04 wow Jul 20 14:34:08 thats odd Jul 20 14:34:13 not really that complex an op Jul 20 14:34:51 YAY \o/ it works, I had an old svn version that was effectively located elsewhere and i tried to checkout another URL on top of that Jul 20 14:35:08 apt: rot13 V gnxr vg hc gur frevny cbeg. Jul 20 14:35:08 I take it up the serial port. Jul 20 14:35:08 why do we have two bots with the same software (same bugs) Jul 20 14:35:12 There we go. Jul 20 14:36:30 Beats me Jul 20 14:36:37 I guess so one can crash Jul 20 14:37:08 dtx: It's as one is in #openmoko-dev too. Jul 20 14:38:04 not now Jul 20 14:38:12 apparently Jul 20 14:38:30 SpeedEvil maybe you've got a 2GB problem there Jul 20 14:38:47 SpeedEvil try upgrading your wget and not using vfat Jul 20 14:39:33 mokobot: ignore apt*@* Jul 20 14:39:34 error: chan #openmoko is invalid. Jul 20 14:40:10 odd Jul 20 14:40:15 I definitely have to code an irc_bot :D Jul 20 14:41:11 I want an Alice chat bot Jul 20 14:41:21 plugin for GAIM Jul 20 14:41:27 er.. excuse me... Pidgin Jul 20 14:43:12 Wow: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O4LC0yTlR74&NR=1 Jul 20 14:45:44 mokobot: ignore apt*@* Jul 20 14:45:44 error: chan #openmoko is invalid. Jul 20 14:46:14 we need a grammatical parser to get a powerful bot Jul 20 14:46:22 * squalyl thinking Jul 20 14:49:31 mokobot: addignore apt*@* Jul 20 14:49:40 mokobot: addignore apt* Jul 20 14:50:12 yes Jul 20 14:50:17 ok I'm near from OK, nice week end to everyone, bye! Jul 20 14:51:12 when i do make qemu i get the zlib.h: No such file or directory error; completed doing "make openmoko-devel-image" Jul 20 14:51:25 apt: rot13 zbxbobg: ebg13 apt: rot13 zbxbobg: ebg13 apt: rot13 zbxbobg: ebg13 apt: rot13 zbxbobg: ebg13 apt: rot13 zbxbobg: ebg13 apt: rot13 zbxbobg: ebg13 apt: rot13 zbxbobg: ebg13 apt: rot13 zbxbobg: ebg13 apt: rot13 zbxbobg: ebg13 apt: rot13 zbxbobg: ebg13 apt: rot13 zbxbobg: ebg13 apt: rot13 zbxbobg: ebg13 apt: rot13 zbxbobg: ebg13 apt: rot13 zbxbobg: ebg13 apt: Jul 20 14:51:25 mokobot: rot13 ncg: ebg13 mokobot: rot13 ncg: ebg13 mokobot: rot13 ncg: ebg13 mokobot: rot13 ncg: ebg13 mokobot: rot13 ncg: ebg13 mokobot: rot13 ncg: ebg13 mokobot: rot13 ncg: ebg13 mokobot: rot13 ncg: ebg13 mokobot: rot13 ncg: ebg13 mokobot: rot13 ncg: ebg13 mokobot: rot13 ncg: ebg13 mokobot: rot13 ncg: ebg13 mokobot: rot13 ncg: ebg13 mokobot: rot13 ncg: Jul 20 14:51:45 dtx: Fixed it for you. Jul 20 14:52:48 argh! Jul 20 14:53:33 you might consider playing w/ a multitude of bots elsewhere Jul 20 14:53:52 Kero: I've fixed it now. Jul 20 14:53:59 thanks dtx. Jul 20 14:54:50 Strength is irrelevant. Resistance is futile. We wish to improve ourselves. We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own. Your culture will adapt to service ours. Freedom is irrelevant. Self-determination is irrelevant. You must comply. Jul 20 14:55:01 Exterminate! Annihilate! Destroy! Jul 20 14:55:37 ok, had to install zlib1g-dev Jul 20 14:56:32 data: Target these coordinates... Jul 20 14:57:15 mintee: They do none of those the borg just assimilate. Jul 20 15:04:12 stupid connection Jul 20 15:09:32 mokobot doesn't like to play with other bots now? Jul 20 15:09:33 dtx: have you tried http://www.tldp.org/ ? Jul 20 15:09:53 anyone uses the garage here? Jul 20 15:09:54 hahaha Jul 20 15:09:57 sorry Jul 20 15:10:00 wrong channel Jul 20 15:10:24 dtx: Incorrect, mokobot doesn't play with apt anymore. Jul 20 15:15:28 when i run make qemu-run, i get a compressed, distorted image on F8; do i need to specify any screen resolution? Jul 20 15:19:48 mbuf try setting export DISPLAY=:0.0 Jul 20 15:20:05 mbuf you mean the console on F8, right? Jul 20 15:23:40 are there any other bts Jul 20 15:23:44 s/bts/bots/ Jul 20 15:23:44 dtx meant: are there any other bots Jul 20 15:23:48 to bys mel jako student VSE vedet, ne? Jul 20 15:23:51 sorry Jul 20 15:24:43 mokobot: rot13 V'z nyy nybar va guvf jbeyq. Jul 20 15:24:44 I'm all alone in this world. Jul 20 15:26:54 mokobot: rot13 /cneg Jul 20 15:26:54 /part Jul 20 15:27:08 nice try Jul 20 15:27:12 haha Jul 20 15:27:47 mokobot: rot13 /xvpx FcrrqRivy Jul 20 15:27:47 /kick SpeedEvil Jul 20 15:27:51 hehe Jul 20 15:28:08 I feel a little like one of those guys on the iPhone lines... Jul 20 15:28:37 Except less pathetic Jul 20 15:28:45 :-P Jul 20 15:29:14 Oh, naturally. :') Jul 20 15:29:31 kristian, yes Jul 20 15:29:46 kristian-m, actually, DISPLAY is set to :0.0 Jul 20 15:30:58 i am not sure how to take a screenshot on F8 Jul 20 15:31:59 Ooh, good article on marketing: http://www.treehugger.com/files/2007/07/just_because_it_saves_the_world.php Jul 20 15:32:54 Press alt-f4 to take a screen shot. lol Jul 20 15:33:11 lol Jul 20 15:33:28 Fell for that once, when I was like 8 Jul 20 15:33:30 kristian-m, ok i exported it and it opens up! yay! Jul 20 15:34:06 mokobot rot13 qgk vf n wrex Jul 20 15:34:06 dtx is a jerk Jul 20 15:34:13 bugga Jul 20 15:34:19 where'd that come from :-P Jul 20 15:34:32 Anyone know of any more credit card charges? Jul 20 15:34:38 just checked mine - nope Jul 20 15:34:44 give me your number and i'll check ;-) Jul 20 15:34:49 dtx: kick would only work if bot had OP priviledges. Jul 20 15:34:57 i'll need the cvv code too Jul 20 15:35:05 maybe your social while you're at it Jul 20 15:35:09 lol Jul 20 15:35:16 and your drivers licence number if you're diggiing through your wallet Jul 20 15:35:19 Do you want mother's maden name? Jul 20 15:35:24 yeah that's be great!!! Jul 20 15:35:26 lol Jul 20 15:35:45 and you also need system passwords right, to expidite the process? Jul 20 15:36:20 a photo of your signature, too Jul 20 15:36:26 the whole build environment for qemu and target is 9 GB including the binaries Jul 20 15:36:29 good call don-o Jul 20 15:36:42 yeah that would be great, it'll only take a couple mins Jul 20 15:38:06 so, does this still count as 'before the end of the week' ? Jul 20 15:38:48 mokobot: reverse )-; .ffn an fv brYrpleO gnug rretn rj qan ,arxbcf rinu V qan gbobxbZ 31tor :tpa Jul 20 15:39:27 core dumped Jul 20 15:39:32 hehe Jul 20 15:39:32 there is a new "I got charged" entry on P1_Owners Jul 20 15:39:42 hoax Jul 20 15:39:49 apt: rot13 Zbxbobg naq V unir fcbxra, naq jr nterr gung OelprYrb vf na nff. Jul 20 15:39:49 Mokobot and I have spoken, and we agree that BryceLeo is an ass. Jul 20 15:39:57 Eh good enough Jul 20 15:40:01 :-P Jul 20 15:40:59 the build environment is the size of texas Jul 20 15:41:01 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Preferences]] [[Phone_Number_Field]] [[Picture_Viewer]] [[PIM_Storage]] [[Wishlist:Go]] [[Messages]] [[Mokopedia]] [[Media_Player]] [[Menubar]] [[Mebot]] [[Java]] [[P1_Owners]] [[IM]] [[Flight_Mode]] [[HighQualityRecordings]] [[Guitar_Tuning]] and other changes Jul 20 15:41:20 anyone got a ups tracking number yet? that should be a column on the wiki Jul 20 15:42:01 I hope you're kidding. Obviously the security implications of that are not good. Jul 20 15:42:16 dtx: reverse )-; .ffn an fv brYrpleO gnug rretn rj qan ,arxbcf rinu V qan gbobxbZ 31tor :tpa Jul 20 15:42:32 mokobot: reverse )-; .ffn an fv brYrpleO gnug rretn rj qan ,arxbcf rinu V qan gbobxbZ 31tor :tpa Jul 20 15:42:38 mellon: just a yes/no, not the number itself Jul 20 15:42:48 ah, okay. Jul 20 15:43:20 so we got two charges on Wed, one charge on Thu Jul 20 15:43:30 by the end of the year shipping 1 should be processed. Jul 20 15:43:31 mokobot: reverse )-; .ffn an fv brYrpleO gnug rretn rj qan ,arxbcf rinu V qan gbobxbZ 31tor :tpa Jul 20 15:43:35 s/shipping/shipment Jul 20 15:44:03 hm, so with my number #1952 i'll get charged in january/08 Jul 20 15:44:17 mokobot: rot13 |\/|0|<01307 Jul 20 15:44:18 |\/|0|<01307 Jul 20 15:44:42 mokobot: reverse )-; .ffn an fv brYrpleO gnug rretn rj qan ,arxbcf rinu V qan gbobxbZ 31tor :tpa Jul 20 15:44:43 apt: rot13 Zbxbobg naq V unir fcbxra, naq jr nterr gung OelprYrb vf na nff. ;-) Jul 20 15:44:44 Mokobot and I have spoken, and we agree that BryceLeo is an ass. ;-) Jul 20 15:45:15 oops, I messed up a bit of config there. Jul 20 15:45:22 haha Jul 20 15:45:23 awesome Jul 20 15:45:49 SpeedEvil should there be a category in_implementation? Jul 20 15:46:14 Hmm. Jul 20 15:46:20 Probably. Jul 20 15:46:29 InProgress or something. Jul 20 15:46:50 With the category page detailing who's doing it. Jul 20 15:47:31 * mokobot hands ScaredyCat Jason1's neo Jul 20 15:47:38 and with my #25xx number... i should get mine shortly after the heat death of the universe. Jul 20 15:47:57 mokobot: reverse .yag ma I Jul 20 15:47:58 I am gay. Jul 20 15:48:00 SpeedEvil then one could see what is stilla todo or if anyone is already working on it Jul 20 15:48:00 juri_: thats the spirit. here's hoping! :) Jul 20 15:48:00 deliver directly to milliways! :) Jul 20 15:48:28 (cause i know the $500 sitting arround in my account will cover a feast at milliways. ;) Jul 20 15:49:00 mokobot: reverse .lauxesib m'I ko, lleW Jul 20 15:49:02 Well ,ok I'm bisexual. Jul 20 15:49:14 it's not a fault. Jul 20 15:49:26 it's an add-on Jul 20 15:50:08 kristian-m: yeah. At the moment I'm just about halfway through special:allpages, doing a quick scan of each page and adding implemented or not implemented. Some will be incorrect, but... Jul 20 15:51:06 mokobot: reverse .lanoitceridib yas ot tnaem I ,niaga em esucxE Jul 20 15:51:07 Excuse me again, I meant to say bidirectional. Jul 20 15:57:18 mokobot: 622*1,2 Jul 20 15:57:28 mokobot: 622*1,2= Jul 20 15:57:37 hm Jul 20 15:58:04 mokobot: 622*1.2 Jul 20 15:58:04 746.4 Jul 20 15:58:29 mokobot dont likes me ;) Jul 20 15:58:49 cel_: Look at the syntax difference. Jul 20 15:58:50 mokobot: 622*1.2 Jul 20 15:58:50 746.4 Jul 20 15:58:57 thanks!! Jul 20 15:58:58 heh Jul 20 15:59:30 Different parts of the world use different delimeters for the decimal point. Jul 20 15:59:46 mokobot: try utf-8 Jul 20 15:59:54 *g* Jul 20 16:01:59 mokobot: rot13 我åªåœ°æ–¹åŒ–在美国。 Jul 20 16:01:59 我åªåœ°æ–¹åŒ–在美国。 Jul 20 16:02:23 * mintee thinks mokobot should /join #bottalk Jul 20 16:03:28 mintee: like that Jul 20 16:04:03 * BryceLeo poses question to developers: Why are standard applications allowed to multi-task? Shouldn't the contacts app fully close when i switch back to a menu and then choose calc? Jul 20 16:04:19 yea, i think i've had enough of bot-talk in here. ;) Jul 20 16:04:22 BryceLeo: who cares if you don't see the interface? Jul 20 16:04:39 haha, yes ericthefish_work... you shoud introduce them Jul 20 16:04:40 * dottedmag <- not a OM developer Jul 20 16:04:55 BryceLeo: Because most of us geeks want our multitasking OS to ctually do so. Jul 20 16:05:33 hi Jul 20 16:06:00 s/ctully/actually/ Jul 20 16:06:01 ewanm89_laptop: so you're going to have your phone slow down and chew resources becuase you didn't click close on your contacts app? Jul 20 16:06:13 what kind of phone do you own? Jul 20 16:06:13 I don't know. There is no telling how much number crunching is going on behind the scenes when Calc is not in the foreground. Jul 20 16:06:29 bryce, you're right but your mindset is so fundamentally alien to the linux mindset that that seed will find this ground barren Jul 20 16:06:30 BryceLeo: Yes, I hate such limitations in my current phone. Jul 20 16:06:40 bryce, palmos works that way and it is very nice Jul 20 16:06:47 what's your current phone ewanm89_laptop Jul 20 16:06:58 every app is just a big state machine that is designed to terminate and save all of its state in like 10ms, and then reload from scratch with the same state in another 10ms Jul 20 16:07:09 BryceLeo: Use suspend on switch rather than leave them fully running if you must. Jul 20 16:07:26 still haven't answered my question ewanm89_laptop Jul 20 16:07:46 BryceLeo: It's not even a smart phone, (Motorola L6) Jul 20 16:07:50 galexande: it's a beautiful system, lets the phone that's using hardware from 2004 still preform damn well Jul 20 16:08:17 bryce, yeah, but linux has already made most of the trade-offs for you so it doeesn't give you much advantage... Jul 20 16:08:25 i.e., the neo is coming with 128MB RAM what are you whining about :) Jul 20 16:08:32 ewanm89_laptop: exactly my point. I know that multitasking is nice and in some cases rediculously helpful, but on a phone it wastes power most of the time, palmos is ancient yet snappy Jul 20 16:08:37 (nevermind that palmos runs well in 1MB) Jul 20 16:09:04 galexande: i hate waste, programs and apps always get bigger and take more memory and cpu cycles Jul 20 16:09:19 BryceLeo: So use task suspending, the linux mindeset. Jul 20 16:09:22 the less you use at a time the more one application can push the phone Jul 20 16:09:23 bryce, i agree, i like to use really thin X programs Jul 20 16:09:35 task suspending isn't really that great Jul 20 16:10:03 i was really looking forward to seeing what the palmos-on-linux that palm was talking about would look like Jul 20 16:10:07 but i think they abandoned it a year or so ago Jul 20 16:10:11 It allows me to switch and copy and paste unlike my current useless phone. Jul 20 16:10:24 copy and paste is one thing i have never ever done on my ipaq :) Jul 20 16:10:34 * ScaredyCat sighs Jul 20 16:10:51 Personally. Jul 20 16:10:59 ScaredyCat no neo in sight? Jul 20 16:10:59 I'm using a 128M laptop now. Jul 20 16:11:08 though palmos, it must be noted, has a great copy-and-paste system, iirc. Jul 20 16:11:10 galexande: it should be around soon, access has their own and palm is licencing the 68k software layer Jul 20 16:11:11 I have 10 shell windows open. Jul 20 16:11:16 no, nothing... nada nix null Jul 20 16:11:17 Firefox, with 14 tabs. Jul 20 16:11:23 Works fine. Jul 20 16:11:24 I've needed it on my L6 when someone has given me a link through irc in jmirc. Jul 20 16:11:31 ewanm89_laptop: so make a persistent clipboard Jul 20 16:11:40 ewanm89_laptop: much simpler and efficent Jul 20 16:12:09 Idle applications do not use CPU Jul 20 16:12:14 galexande: it's a pretty good copy and paste, does quite well Jul 20 16:12:29 BryceLeo: It has a persistant clipboard but it's a pain to fully disconnect then reconnect twice just to follow a link. Jul 20 16:12:39 speed, but they use ram Jul 20 16:13:00 SpeedEvil, they do technically use the cpu, when they get checked on to see if they need a timeslice Jul 20 16:13:14 and if we get too many layers, that effect is compounded... just having the open windows resident in the X server could really bog us down if we have enough layers which are all looping foreach (all_windows) Jul 20 16:13:20 BryceLeo: That runs anyway. Jul 20 16:13:22 ewanm89_laptop: what do you have to fully disconnect and re-connect? Jul 20 16:13:26 but we'd pretty much have to be microsoft to get that far :) Jul 20 16:13:53 IRC and the Web browser in the case I stated. Jul 20 16:14:18 i didn't say that it had to be for all applications, just most Jul 20 16:14:25 pretty much all the standard phone apps Jul 20 16:14:36 DAGNABIT! Jul 20 16:14:52 yeah for dialer/core pim apps, the user isn't fundamentally multitasking Jul 20 16:14:56 99% of the time you don't want 2 things running, however when you do (im/irc &web) it makes sense Jul 20 16:15:03 multitasking will be fine as long as the user is sensible and realises that t isn't as powerfull as their desktop. Jul 20 16:15:26 it's marketed to the masses Jul 20 16:15:50 ewanm89_laptop: do you do any computer support? Jul 20 16:16:40 BryceLeo: Yes Jul 20 16:16:54 so you should know very well what the average user is like Jul 20 16:17:04 well, in my experience, on a palmtop i quickly settle into about half a dozen programs which i ever use Jul 20 16:17:14 Unfortunatly I even support the administration team at the school I go to. Jul 20 16:17:17 and i make sure to have varieties of those programs such that they can all be loaded at once without significant penalty Jul 20 16:17:34 so as long as we make that easy for people, i think the neo will feel snappy to most users Jul 20 16:17:46 ewanm89_laptop: highscool? Jul 20 16:17:54 but if the notepad or calendar program is bloatware and is loaded all the time, it will suck to be a user. Jul 20 16:18:01 * mokobot hands ScaredyCat Jason1's neo Jul 20 16:18:02 BryceLeo: equivilent of. Jul 20 16:18:12 galexande: even a flag that caues it to exit on loss of focus Jul 20 16:18:55 BryceLeo: Why not use signals built in to linux to do just that. Jul 20 16:19:13 ewanm89_laptop: i don't know what you're charging but my rates are 50(family)75(reg clients) an hour for support. They're mostly painfully dumb people who dont understand the simple htings Jul 20 16:19:44 ewanm89_laptop: i'd like something where it's just a simple configurable flag for each app Jul 20 16:19:47 just a checkbox Jul 20 16:20:06 for instance people may want to always leave their contacts app open for some reason Jul 20 16:20:13 then they just click a check box Jul 20 16:20:50 painfully dumb people suck Jul 20 16:21:08 Got that right Jul 20 16:21:16 in my opinion teaching painfully dumb people to use painfully dumb software is the most unpleasant thing ever Jul 20 16:21:23 It so is. Jul 20 16:21:24 worse than puking Jul 20 16:21:25 hehe yes Jul 20 16:21:47 galexande: tell me about it, and that's the way the majority is when it comes to computers, They want this fancy new thing, so they buy the cheapest one and want it to do absofreaking lutely everything Jul 20 16:22:17 BryceLeo: My charging rates are ~= yours for windows, refreshments for macosx (admin team have no idea), free for linux/other opensouce unix atm. Jul 20 16:22:24 It's nice breaking people of that habit. "Think simple." Jul 20 16:24:50 ahh mine are all around for mac/win/linux Jul 20 16:26:31 woglinde: lust zu grillen? Jul 20 16:26:56 BryceLeo: Well, they soon learnt I don't really support windows. Jul 20 16:28:39 ewanm89_laptop: ahh ok. I pretty much do a bit of everything, i'm more win and linux, but macs are fine too Jul 20 16:30:27 alrighty guys i'm gonna head off and setup my new laptop Jul 20 16:30:30 i'll be idle Jul 20 16:31:15 I told my parents that I'd only support Linux on their comp so I can quit messing with it / fixing it all the time Jul 20 16:31:30 Hehe Jul 20 16:31:30 I was surprised when my father figured out on his own how to burn CDs Jul 20 16:31:56 I am so impressed with how far Linux on the desktop really has come Jul 20 16:32:11 It so has. The design decisions being made seem pretty damn good these days. Jul 20 16:32:16 and dbus was a GODSEND Jul 20 16:32:24 Imperfect as it is, it WORKS Jul 20 16:33:01 hey all Jul 20 16:33:05 howdy Jul 20 16:33:12 So what exactly is dbus doing that is so great? Jul 20 16:33:16 I never really got into it Jul 20 16:33:18 i got a problem compiling the dev-image Jul 20 16:33:35 dtx: it's trying to change linux into an event-driven system Jul 20 16:33:50 it's a RPC system that extends into the kernel Jul 20 16:34:14 It doesn't extend into the kernel Jul 20 16:34:30 i think dbus is like apple's configd Jul 20 16:34:34 Really, it's pretty analogous to a wire protocol spec plus multicast unix-domain sockets Jul 20 16:34:37 it provides a convenient central clearing house for configuration events Jul 20 16:34:37 Plus some filters. Jul 20 16:34:51 so if you want to make a program that runs every time the network interface comes up, you can register a hook in dbus Jul 20 16:34:52 And it notifies of events, but has nothing to do with configuration Jul 20 16:34:56 Yeah. Jul 20 16:35:11 The wire format interop spec is really spiffy. It's a very sane protocol. Jul 20 16:35:22 It's really rather simple. Jul 20 16:35:28 (as opposed to say, CORBA) Jul 20 16:35:39 (which it replaced on the desktop nearly overnight) Jul 20 16:35:47 so like if you make a gps program that monitors your location and sets your location to one of {home, work, other} then it would notify dbus and then any number of applications might respond Jul 20 16:35:52 Yeah. Jul 20 16:36:08 i had to cancle the compilation after a view hours ... now i want to resume. i got the error: ERROR: Build of openmoko-devel-image failed. any ideas? Jul 20 16:37:36 skuff, figure out which package is causing the problem and do a make clean-package-packagename Jul 20 16:37:46 skuff, sometimes one packagewill wind up in a funny state if it is interrupted Jul 20 16:37:47 hi Jul 20 16:38:10 are you glass? Jul 20 16:39:13 So programs listen on like a named channel registered with dbus? And then other programs can make RPC calls over that channel essentially? Jul 20 16:39:56 galexande: i think i's just a quartz crystal Jul 20 16:39:58 Or I guess programs subscribe to events by name and are notified when they occur, right? Jul 20 16:40:03 maybe ameythst depending on the impurities Jul 20 16:40:09 dtx, i think that someone sending an event to dbus would not necessarily know all of the listeners for that event Jul 20 16:40:14 oh and dtx i've got both my mom and dad on linux computers Jul 20 16:40:16 so probably the latter Jul 20 16:40:21 dtx: Essentially. Jul 20 16:40:27 yeah it's "silica" Jul 20 16:40:37 And yeah. Events are just sent and listeners get them. Subject to filters configured into the bus Jul 20 16:40:53 So udev triggers hald, hald sends "device connected", the mounter mounts it Jul 20 16:41:07 The file browser opens the window when the mounter signals Jul 20 16:41:11 I'm assuming the events have a data payload associated with them right? Jul 20 16:41:16 Yes, they do. Jul 20 16:41:29 I see Jul 20 16:41:31 DBus' on-wire format represents "objects", essentially, and some primitive data types. Jul 20 16:41:31 Awesome Jul 20 16:41:45 So hald is a udev/dbus bridge? Jul 20 16:41:57 Yep. Jul 20 16:42:06 Wow cool Jul 20 16:42:18 It's so simple. They got the right 80% this time. Jul 20 16:42:26 CORBA tried to be 100%, and missed in doing so. Jul 20 16:42:40 ...but dbus may be used for session also, its a generell ipc mechanism. i use it on a embedded system for that... nice stuff... Jul 20 16:42:46 aria, which reference should i read, i will need to understand dbus Jul 20 16:42:49 (the bootstrapping problem and security problem both interfered) Jul 20 16:43:02 http://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/IntroductionToDBus Jul 20 16:43:02 Lessee. the dbus API illuminates a lot. Jul 20 16:43:05 And that Jul 20 16:43:06 CORBA was really convoluted right? Jul 20 16:43:09 Yeah, it is. Jul 20 16:43:14 It is, it is. Jul 20 16:43:17 thanks mdt Jul 20 16:43:20 CORBA f*ing sucks Jul 20 16:43:26 Largely not interoperable because of those two problems Jul 20 16:43:34 I remember glancing over CORBA docs when I was doing Java dev a long time ago Jul 20 16:43:40 there are different bindings... but in my oppinion most of them sucks Jul 20 16:43:41 No to ORBs can agree on things like ports, security negotiation, etc. Jul 20 16:43:41 i read this now, i'll be ready to grok the api later Jul 20 16:43:42 It made me want to gouge my eyes out Jul 20 16:43:48 Aria: do you know if/how Upstart and DBus interact? Jul 20 16:43:50 Dbus saves a lot by not trying to handle inter-computer messaging. Jul 20 16:44:08 Kensan: I don't. I imagine upstart sends dbus signals as things start, though. And itself reacts to some of those signals Jul 20 16:44:14 how is a typical connection to dbus performed? udp? Jul 20 16:44:24 abstract unix-domain socket Jul 20 16:44:29 nice Jul 20 16:44:30 this is the basis: http://dbus.freedesktop.org/doc/dbus/libdbus-tutorial.html but glib bindings exists with an object view Jul 20 16:44:32 galexande, i cleaned thepackage, same eror Jul 20 16:44:34 connect to "\0/some/socket/name" Jul 20 16:44:53 skuff, sorry you'll have to either figure it out on your own or pastebin the last couple pages of crap and see if anyone recognizes the error Jul 20 16:45:03 OK, since there are obviously a lot of devs in here, what does glib do essentially? Jul 20 16:45:13 ok, thank u very much Jul 20 16:45:14 I never understood the point Jul 20 16:45:17 glib is a utility library. Jul 20 16:45:30 Just general Jul 20 16:45:34 It has functions for linked lists, memory allocation, object orientation in C, event signalling Jul 20 16:45:39 Aria: might be of interest: http://upstart.ubuntu.com/faq.html#replace-dbus Jul 20 16:45:42 Wrappers over some posix stuff for win32, too. Jul 20 16:45:45 dtx, the gtk people started out a little bit insane about frameworks, because they're inventing some OOP crap in C Jul 20 16:45:45 I'm using MokoMakefile and I put some custom binaries in build/tmp/rootfs/. How to build a new local image for qemu ? Jul 20 16:46:05 dtx, so they used glib to encourage all gtk-derived things to use common data formats and so on Jul 20 16:46:12 data formats like link lists, not files Jul 20 16:46:21 yeah Jul 20 16:46:26 Kensan: Sounds right Jul 20 16:46:39 So it is essentially the standard c++ libs for C Jul 20 16:46:53 dtx, no, much, much simpler Jul 20 16:46:54 Kinda but not so deep. Jul 20 16:46:57 dtx, well it's not quite as offensive as STL, but that's the idea :) Jul 20 16:47:01 Hehe. yeah. Jul 20 16:47:05 It's actually really well built Jul 20 16:47:17 They've managed binary compatibility with very few breaks over the years. Jul 20 16:47:19 yeah i think some aspects are overkill but working with gtk stuff has always been pleasant Jul 20 16:47:21 Lots of well-managed migrations Jul 20 16:47:28 Aria: I was curious because Upstart seems like a perfect fit on the service level and it is very likely to be integrated into Openmoko. Jul 20 16:47:34 Kensan: Yeah. Jul 20 16:47:35 gtk1 to gtk2 was the only painful step in my experience Jul 20 16:47:38 and that was mostly font selection Jul 20 16:48:30 Yeah. Jul 20 16:48:40 And the fact that it was a re-architecting of a huge part of the system Jul 20 16:48:44 It was a really good move too. Jul 20 16:49:02 They picked a really good time to break stuff. Made life hell for a while, but it worked out. Jul 20 16:49:08 cool Jul 20 16:49:20 i disagree entirely, i've only let familiar to an auto-upgrade once in my life Jul 20 16:49:22 yeah, now its compiling again :) Jul 20 16:49:33 and it was over the span of gtk1 to gtkk2, and my palmtop has not been the same since :) Jul 20 16:49:49 if they'd waited maybe two months to make that switch, i never would have dealt with it Jul 20 16:50:26 So DBUS provides some real opportunities for IoC type stuff, I guess. Jul 20 16:50:33 Yeah, it does. Jul 20 16:50:39 On a process-by-process level mostly. Jul 20 16:50:48 hmmm Jul 20 16:50:56 Is the IPC mechanism fast? Jul 20 16:51:21 Decently so, if you use it as intended. Jul 20 16:51:34 I wouldn't want to do a hundred ops per second. Jul 20 16:51:57 ipc is fast Jul 20 16:51:59 But it's fast enough for relaying user-triggered application level events. Jul 20 16:52:01 I'm assuming serialization is the bottleneck or does it use shared memory? Jul 20 16:52:07 Serialization is the bottleneck. Jul 20 16:52:15 It's stream-socket based, not SHM Jul 20 16:52:28 hmmm Jul 20 16:52:42 how can we implement a 'hold' function... so that screen taps are ignored? Jul 20 16:53:01 Block signals from screen? Jul 20 16:53:03 with no hard buttons Jul 20 16:53:05 As in mask. Jul 20 16:53:26 Can you lock the mouse to an invisible window Jul 20 16:53:31 yeah, but then you still have an area that cna unlock it Jul 20 16:53:33 is there something that performs the stateful taskks of OS X's configd, maybe a client to dbus? Jul 20 16:53:54 Just throw up a tap-sequence lock screen covering everything Jul 20 16:53:59 Have to tap a specific pattern to unhold Jul 20 16:54:07 What's configd do? Jul 20 16:54:35 Is it like gconf? Jul 20 16:55:02 when state changes in os x, it notifies configd which updates internal state tables, and configd has a number of clients connected to it which are alerted and perform actions based on the current state Jul 20 16:55:10 (for the record, gconfd has been ported to dbus, there's a version that uses it instead of corba to communicate with clients) Jul 20 16:55:22 galexande: That's gconfd in gnome Jul 20 16:55:25 corba *brrrkks* Jul 20 16:55:31 by state i mean things like location=home vs location=work Jul 20 16:55:41 or environment=loud vs environment=quiet Jul 20 16:56:04 That's possible Jul 20 16:59:16 Man this is making me want to look into upstart now Jul 20 16:59:22 Hmm. Jul 20 16:59:40 On the voice transforming filter options, we have to have a special default for Sep 19th. Jul 20 16:59:51 International Talk Like a Pirate day. Jul 20 16:59:58 arrrrrrr Jul 20 17:00:09 With buttons for parrot noises. Jul 20 17:00:36 and swash buckling sounds Jul 20 17:03:26 Heyup Speedevil, I noticed your name on some of the early wiki edits on the finger scrolling widget.... Jul 20 17:03:42 radiorental: I am not responsible for it! Jul 20 17:03:50 I did nothing! Jul 20 17:03:53 Well - I think I commented a bit. Jul 20 17:03:58 dam.. was hoping to beat someone up (o; Jul 20 17:04:10 is there much scope to change the design? Jul 20 17:04:29 What changes were you thinking of? Jul 20 17:04:31 a few of us user interface designers have been talking backchannel Jul 20 17:05:00 is there any scope to make it similar to the iphone flick? Jul 20 17:05:07 nothing is set in stone at all... if you want to do it differently you can :) Jul 20 17:05:13 an invisible four-way scoller Jul 20 17:05:19 Basically. Jul 20 17:05:25 but its a core app no? Jul 20 17:05:37 If you fork the entire OS, and it's good, then there is a good chance that it will get adopted. Jul 20 17:05:49 Even if you change core stuff. Jul 20 17:05:56 ahh.. but I'm a mere ui designer, not a coder Jul 20 17:06:08 radio, i really want to see a UI standard come out that i can stand behind, so i am excited to see UI designers producing wiki pages Jul 20 17:06:18 why would you have to fork the entire os to implement a new widget? Jul 20 17:06:21 galexande: *amen* Jul 20 17:06:25 we prefer to work with coders and inject the 'users perspective' Jul 20 17:06:35 ScaredyCat: that was an extreme example. Jul 20 17:06:41 very. Jul 20 17:07:07 radio, someone needs to inject the users perspectivev into the wiki design documents that coders have thrown together Jul 20 17:07:12 galex: thats good to hear, I'm working on it as fast as I can before too much app development starts Jul 20 17:07:17 radiorental, ah, so you're into herding cats, ay? :) Jul 20 17:07:21 Personally, I'd like the option of the wheel staying htere. Jul 20 17:07:28 surely all they're talking about is a new widget type that uses flicks to scroll Jul 20 17:07:41 So that you can implement various glyph systems on the screen Jul 20 17:07:42 right now i am not fond of anything i've seen in terms of openmoko UI design, and if that doesn't change then i'm gonna go totally lone wolf Jul 20 17:08:05 or do you just mean a box that you drag off in various directions to do stuff? Jul 20 17:08:09 radio, a totally new scrollable list widget for all applications is not out of the question Jul 20 17:08:15 speedevil: the thing that has ui designers concerned is two different gestures methods for the finger apps and the stylus apps Jul 20 17:08:17 radio, or pervasive pie menues Jul 20 17:08:25 radiorental: Explaining your ideas in a wiki-page, possibly with mock-ups, and a posting to the mailing list would be a good start. Jul 20 17:08:26 galexande: you don't like the thumbscrool and button? Jul 20 17:08:30 I prefer someone else to do the UI design for my apps. Jul 20 17:08:46 bryce, i don't see why those need to take up screen real estate, when the list that they are acting on is already on the screen Jul 20 17:09:06 surely we can use pie menus or gestures inside the list widget to scroll around the list? Jul 20 17:09:13 then we can even display more than one list on the screen (not that i like this idea) Jul 20 17:09:18 kensan: I'm on it, jsut touching base with peopel to find out what is possible Jul 20 17:09:40 galexande: i guess i can see what yo yumean but i'm sick of everyone injecting iPhone crap everywhere Jul 20 17:09:40 I dont want to storm on to the project and mod the wiki without checking in with people Jul 20 17:09:53 galexande: i'll take pie menus Jul 20 17:10:06 radiorental: the wiki is there so that you *can* do that Jul 20 17:10:16 radiorental: that's the beauty of it: if your ideas are great and garner enough support they might be included into the core software stack. Jul 20 17:10:30 bryce, yeah, though i think to some extent certain iphoneisms are unavoidable when you eschew buttons and stylii Jul 20 17:10:31 I would suggest not to do massive wiki changes. Jul 20 17:10:34 radiorental: We can all mod the wiki and inject our own ideas. Jul 20 17:10:40 because clicking on a tiny scrollbar is just unacceptable after that Jul 20 17:10:41 anarchy! Jul 20 17:10:52 SpeedEvil: additions and extra ideas aren't an issue... Jul 20 17:10:54 if you're a UI designer, i highly recommend massive wiki changes Jul 20 17:11:00 radiorental: it's about gaining momentum and convincing people by presenting your ideas. Even if you don't convince the core team, maybe you convince enough developers to code an alternative, etc. Jul 20 17:11:03 deleteing lots of other peoples ideas, yes Jul 20 17:11:14 just getting any idea of how people feel about ui designers, no point in us changing the wiki and causing no work to happen Jul 20 17:11:23 what's on the wiki for most of the core apps was written long enough ago that the original designer is hopefully not even invested in it anymo,re :) Jul 20 17:11:35 radiorental: how long have you been doing ui design what projects have you done? Jul 20 17:11:46 thank you all - I'm drawing up a proposal to create a unified scrolling gesture that will work across all apps Jul 20 17:11:49 However, changing large parts of the wiki, is a little counterproductive. I'd suggest several mockup pages with pointers from the main pages. Jul 20 17:12:03 * ScaredyCat nods Jul 20 17:12:22 radiorental: I see your point, but jotting down your ideas to make them accessible to others is always a good idea :) Maybe you would make a seperate page and link to it. Jul 20 17:12:23 bryceleo: www.pauric.net (12 years, with some opensource stuff, most notibly a portable oscilloscope) Jul 20 17:12:41 ugh i hope you didn't design the buttons on my portable scope :) Jul 20 17:12:45 radiorental: oh jeez dude why didn't you just say that that was you! Jul 20 17:12:52 radiorental: i've been following you on the app list for a while Jul 20 17:13:07 radiorental: you've got my blessing to go through and change it for what little my blessing matters Jul 20 17:13:45 bryceLeo: thanks! Jul 20 17:14:27 radiorental: IMHO since almost everyone is not satisfied how the UI looks/works right now every new concept will draw attention. Jul 20 17:14:40 unified scrolling sounds good. Jul 20 17:14:59 My point is basically - the UI at the moment is at least sort-of-consistent. If you are going to do massive changes then you need to have it seperate from the old one, so that people who prefer the old one can continue documenting it. Jul 20 17:15:08 Speedevil: I'm all about mockups, pictures speak a 1000 words. Again, just checking in with folks about the scope of change available. Thank you all! Jul 20 17:15:50 speed, the UI at the moment is completely wrong Jul 20 17:16:04 radiorental: Come up with an idea, and some of us will see if we can then code it into reality. Jul 20 17:16:23 i don't mean to offend whoever drew it up, but everything i've read suggests that everyone who has touched the UI thinks that it will have a 6" 640x480 screen with a stylus Jul 20 17:16:23 galexande: I'm not disagreeing. Jul 20 17:16:24 galexande: if you jump ship where are you jumping to? Jul 20 17:16:35 Speedevil: I dont want to inflict massive changes, just introduce a consistent scroll gesture. I really dislike the loss of one-hand operation when using apps just as 'contacts' Jul 20 17:16:45 Just remember some of us aren't adverse to a CLI. Jul 20 17:16:46 galexande: very very true Jul 20 17:16:47 bryce, if i have to then i'll make a dialer app that looks like http://galexander.org/gglcars/ :) Jul 20 17:17:27 hahahahaha that's awesome very nice Jul 20 17:17:29 galexande: For example, I made the somewhat contraversial point on the wiki that we should use the screen optimally. Even if that meant initially locking out red-green colourblind people. Jul 20 17:17:38 its all about evolution, not revolution Jul 20 17:17:52 galexande: Treating the screen as if it was a desktop app is insane. Jul 20 17:17:59 it's tiiiiny Jul 20 17:18:10 so everything has to be 'big' if viewing it at 480x640 on a desktop Jul 20 17:18:20 or heck, an asus eee Jul 20 17:19:22 well red/green is a dumb contrast anyways, those apps are unusable even on big screens by colorseeers. Jul 20 17:19:29 it should be white/black or a totally different image Jul 20 17:19:40 Indeed - it was more a general point. Jul 20 17:19:52 http://wiki.openmoko.org/images/5/57/Contacts-main-double-height.png Jul 20 17:19:53 The screen should be used as fully as possible. Jul 20 17:20:11 (not by me. But I found it. It's another scrolling idea) Jul 20 17:20:11 Yes. But. Those design constraints actually encourage better design. Jul 20 17:20:11 i'm thinking high contrast but still matching the case of your particular moko Jul 20 17:20:30 so there'd have to be color schemes and a selection for silver/black and orange/white moko Jul 20 17:20:43 Elrond: thats really cool, I have not seen it before, apologies! Jul 20 17:21:03 what doc is it located in? Jul 20 17:21:42 isn't gtk a series of messages passing about? Jul 20 17:21:48 ahhahaha happycube Jul 20 17:22:03 can't you just inject a 'scroll up' into the message stream? Jul 20 17:22:10 from a flick. Jul 20 17:22:12 ? Jul 20 17:22:25 scaredy, well yeah you could even be like xstroke and recognize the gesture and send an uparrow keyboard click Jul 20 17:22:45 SpeedEvil, Elrond: wait a few days for the contacts and today rewrite to get committed Jul 20 17:22:48 but if it is integrated into the GtkList (or whatever) widget then it will be more responsive and we can do things like exponential acceleration or so Jul 20 17:22:53 they start discussing the GUI Jul 20 17:23:00 cool Jul 20 17:23:06 no point talking about something that will be gone soon Jul 20 17:23:16 s/they/then/ Jul 20 17:23:34 Can acceleration be detected with this touch sensitive screen - thats news Jul 20 17:23:41 koen, does contacts really have a split-screen? Jul 20 17:24:21 radio, well it gives coordinates fairly frequently, and you can do whatever you want with the delta between coordinates Jul 20 17:24:31 radiorental: no. Jul 20 17:24:42 I didnt think so Jul 20 17:25:24 touch sensitive is too imprecise to replicate the sophisticated gestures found on the iphone Jul 20 17:26:05 radiorental - No document. I just found it by accident while lookig at Specialpages. Jul 20 17:26:11 radio, i don't know what you mean by that, but for single-touch, the touch screen is perfectly capable of anything Jul 20 17:26:13 a simple four-way scroll is a do-able gesture. I've already updated the application wiki with a matrix for the tap, double tap, tap-hold inputs Jul 20 17:26:14 koen|train - Ahh. Nice to hear, that something is happening there. Jul 20 17:26:29 radio, palm graffiti works on the same technology as the neo Jul 20 17:26:42 which isa bout as sophisticated as you can get with singletouch Jul 20 17:27:02 there is no accelleration on the palm Galexande Jul 20 17:27:02 Elrond: we had a side to side comparison at guadec Jul 20 17:27:08 palm stuff works fine Jul 20 17:27:09 there might be a capacative touchscreen on the way for the openmoko, decent resolution too Jul 20 17:27:12 everyone found the rewrite a lot better Jul 20 17:27:19 radio, do you even know what you mean by acceleration? Jul 20 17:27:21 that not to say it isnt do-able, it jsut doesnt work very cleanly Jul 20 17:27:52 what kind of touchscreen does it have now? Jul 20 17:27:55 koen|train - Anything to see from that comparison currently? Jul 20 17:27:57 don-o, resistive Jul 20 17:28:15 Elrond: I haven't seen screenshots of it yet Jul 20 17:28:27 acceleration is the increase in the speed of a finger across the surface coressponding in an increase in the speed of a scrolling in the app Jul 20 17:28:31 radiorental: The screen works just fine for detecting a touch at x,y. And it reports these often. Jul 20 17:28:32 but it's hard to make inertial scrolling show in a png :) Jul 20 17:28:41 radio, that works fine with the touch screen in a palm Jul 20 17:28:42 radiorental: you can do whatever you want with this. Jul 20 17:28:47 gif! Jul 20 17:28:49 koen|train - And you didn't take your camera and shot everything quickly before people ran away? ;o) Jul 20 17:28:58 koen, oh, nice, are you making widgets with this scrolling technique or is it just in the contacts app? Jul 20 17:29:04 can you give an app as an example Galexande? Jul 20 17:29:07 the today rewrite senses acceleration and adjust the inertial scrolling based on that Jul 20 17:29:12 radio, software = no :) Jul 20 17:29:29 radio, but if it's possible in singletouch on the iphone, the hardware on the neo is 100% equally capable Jul 20 17:29:43 koen|train: sounds good Jul 20 17:30:47 well, not exactly. pressure sensitive screens require a little force, this added friction reduces the intuitivness of a 'flick' Jul 20 17:31:12 the capacitive iPhone interface does not require pressure, therefor less friction Jul 20 17:31:13 radiorental: I've never found that with drawing on a touchscreen. Jul 20 17:31:21 capacative screens are still possible, clearpad based solutions are looking reasonably priced compared to standard resistive Jul 20 17:31:40 * SpeedEvil wants SAW. Jul 20 17:31:51 With nice diamond-coated glass. Jul 20 17:31:57 radio, yes, that's true Jul 20 17:32:10 it will feel a lot different under your fingers because it's such a different kind of surface. Jul 20 17:32:23 SpeedEvil - Does that work reasonably? Jul 20 17:32:31 so, yes its possible. No, in my opinion, should it be a fundamental gesture.. nto until the hardware catches up Jul 20 17:32:35 Elrond: In principle. Jul 20 17:32:49 Elrond: SAW touchscreen displays work very well. Jul 20 17:33:05 Elrond: diamond coated glass is _mass_ produced for produce barcode scanner windows. Jul 20 17:33:25 Nothing to say why you couldn't use some to make a PDA. Jul 20 17:33:40 Ahhh. Jul 20 17:33:40 price? Jul 20 17:33:53 That would finally solve the scratches-on-display problem :-) Jul 20 17:34:04 the phone that dulls your keys! Jul 20 17:34:10 IIRC - $50 in ones for a PDA-sized bit of glass Jul 20 17:34:30 These are the scanner windows that have tins thrown over them all day. Jul 20 17:34:36 So they are pretty robust. Jul 20 17:35:02 personally, i like the clamshell design of the nokia 770. if i had my choice, i'd have that on my openmoko. Jul 20 17:35:31 especially with the magnet that makes the unit go to sleep. Jul 20 17:35:45 the nokia 770 isn't a clamshell Jul 20 17:35:50 it's a tablet Jul 20 17:36:04 it has an aluminum shell you slide over the unit. Jul 20 17:36:14 that is not a clamshell Jul 20 17:36:14 whats the term for that? Jul 20 17:36:18 a clamm has a pivot Jul 20 17:36:24 it has a sliding cover Jul 20 17:36:35 (which rocks, btw, I wish the n800 had it) Jul 20 17:38:00 * daMaestro chants: i want my moko, i want my moko, i want my moko Jul 20 17:38:15 i just can't wait to see how small it is Jul 20 17:38:18 i want my m t vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv! Jul 20 17:39:37 i was considering getting the developer package... would it be better to wait until october? Jul 20 17:39:45 mokobot: Can I has my openmoko? Jul 20 17:39:46 (when it is a little more robust...) Jul 20 17:39:56 mokobot: can I has my openmoko? Jul 20 17:40:02 mokobot: can I has openmoko? Jul 20 17:40:02 or just jump in the deep end and start coding away? Jul 20 17:40:09 mokobot: can i has openmoko? Jul 20 17:40:14 mokobot: can i has openmoko Jul 20 17:40:18 Jeff_: i'd just jump the deepend Jul 20 17:40:21 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Test_Openmoko_Emulation_with_chroot_image]] [[Wish_List]] [[Wishlist:Text_Input]] [[Main_Page/fr]] [[Translation]] Jul 20 17:40:31 do you have one bryce? Jul 20 17:40:37 I have jumped in. Jul 20 17:41:01 * ewanm89_laptop can't order a neo though. Jul 20 17:41:05 i mean how functional is it? :-) Nice- I am a software engineer myself i just didn't know how low-level the coding is Jul 20 17:41:10 :( :( :( :( Jul 20 17:41:12 id rather not work on the kernel i think i woulc cry Jul 20 17:41:20 ewanm89_laptop: why can't you order a neo?? Jul 20 17:41:22 kernel is much more fun than user space Jul 20 17:41:25 Jeff_: Don't then. Jul 20 17:41:29 haha Jul 20 17:41:42 i hate to write stuff in c in user space Jul 20 17:41:47 but in kernel space it's fun Jul 20 17:41:58 you can still do apps on the neo, and get a feel for real world how they act and how you'll need to modify graphics for that high dpi screen Jul 20 17:42:12 having never developed something like a kernel i wouldn't be much help there probably Jul 20 17:42:21 BryceLeo: No credit card, bank account doesn't do direct debit and my parents won't do international orders :( :( :( :( :( :( Jul 20 17:42:28 Make a 120*160 window, and you get a basic idea for most current displays. Jul 20 17:42:41 whats the size on the neo Jul 20 17:42:49 Jeff_: Leave the kernel for kernel devs then. Jul 20 17:42:55 4x5cm or so Jul 20 17:43:13 IMO, 120*160 is probably aroung the right res to develop to on the desktop Jul 20 17:43:23 as that gives about the right size of window on most displays. Jul 20 17:44:24 whats the basic os like? is it like really #$@# Damn Small Linux? Jul 20 17:44:39 It's basically desktop. Jul 20 17:44:47 it's GNOME Jul 20 17:45:01 pared down i would imagine! Jul 20 17:45:03 Sort-of-like DSL crossed with a desktop X install. Jul 20 17:45:12 And it's GTK. Jul 20 17:45:19 Not GNOME. GPE-ish, GTK-based, matchbox window manager. Jul 20 17:45:28 Stacking fullscreen windows Jul 20 17:45:40 so can you develop a GTK app and then just move it over ono the phone? Jul 20 17:45:54 Jeff: yes Jul 20 17:46:26 I signed up on the open moko project website but there doesn't seem to really be an intuitave place to get started. do you have any recommendations? Jul 20 17:46:31 Just develop so that your program works in a 120*160 window on the desktop. Jul 20 17:46:37 And it'll mostly be fine. Jul 20 17:46:50 nice. Jul 20 17:47:08 what networks does the (will the...) phone work on? can i just slap my SIM card into it and carry on? Jul 20 17:47:08 the one exception is that small fonts on the neo will be more readable than small fonts in a 120x160 window Jul 20 17:47:10 (120*160 is because the efective resolution of the display by most users at normal distances will be around that) Jul 20 17:47:17 jeff, anything gsm Jul 20 17:47:20 Yes. Jul 20 17:47:25 except tanzania Jul 20 17:47:34 But for normal stuff you don't want small fonts. Jul 20 17:47:48 right. Jul 20 17:47:53 IMO - almost enver, except for apps where you may hold the phone at 20cm. Jul 20 17:47:53 why not tanzania? Jul 20 17:47:57 galexande: so I take it you don't ever plan on having kids? Jul 20 17:48:00 sure but suppose you are displaying 10 lines of text at 16 pixels high on the PC, that won't look as good as 10 lines of text at 64 pixels high on the neo Jul 20 17:48:24 judging by your site Jul 20 17:48:26 kiney, because they use gsm400 (iirc), while everyone else uses one of the quaband frequencies Jul 20 17:48:27 galexande: Consider when you're outside and looking at the app in the sun. Jul 20 17:48:28 dtx, oh heh Jul 20 17:48:33 galexande: it'll look better. Jul 20 17:48:42 dtx, well i don't care too much about the world so i might have kids Jul 20 17:48:42 (at times) Jul 20 17:48:56 but i won't have any illusion about it being an act of creation instead of an act of destruction :) Jul 20 17:49:00 haha Jul 20 17:49:05 hmm, my siemens me45 worked fine in tanzania... and I don't think it supports that frequency? Jul 20 17:49:16 Should work with any GSM carrier Jul 20 17:49:44 genocidal initiation? Jul 20 17:50:12 or cataclysmic catalyst I suppose. Jul 20 17:50:14 hahaha kiney *shrug* all i know is http://en.wikipedia.org=/wiki/GSM_frequency_bands says: There is currently one GSM-400 network in Tanzania Jul 20 17:50:15 [edit] Jul 20 17:50:34 and GSM-400 is the only one unsupported. Jul 20 17:51:13 gelaxande: thank's for the information... I will read about that Jul 20 17:52:13 re Jul 20 17:52:28 lol Jul 20 17:52:30 africa Jul 20 17:59:01 according to http://www.gsmworld.com/roaming/gsminfo/cou_tz.shtml there are more gsm-networks in tanzania than the 400mhz one Jul 20 18:05:40 ewanm89_laptop: you can't get a student checking account? Jul 20 18:08:05 ewanm89_laptop: what country are you in? Jul 20 18:08:36 I'm guessing somewhere with internet. Jul 20 18:08:52 UK even. Jul 20 18:09:02 As indicated by the btcentralplus.com address. Jul 20 18:10:33 SpeedEvil: relatively safe bet, unless he's using a proxy Jul 20 18:10:41 (script) planet: Holger "zecke" Freyther: WebKit/Gtk http://zecke.blogspot.com/2007/07/webkitgtk.html Jul 20 18:11:49 wow, i'd love to know why mickey is bad-mouthing gtk :) Jul 20 18:13:24 {{{{ openmoko }}}}} :) :) -- my order is in, hope it ships soon :) Jul 20 18:14:04 so -- anyone come up with a super-small usb webcam to use with the gadget? Jul 20 18:14:05 vallor: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (and also SH1_FAQ, Neo1973, Developer_preview and Neo1973_Hardware#GTA01Bv4 pages) (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.) Jul 20 18:14:11 roflmao - don't count on it vallor Jul 20 18:14:15 vallor: You've just ordered? Jul 20 18:14:23 SpeedEvil: yes, a couple days ago Jul 20 18:14:32 vallor: Also - super-small USB powered hub. Jul 20 18:14:45 oh hmm Jul 20 18:14:51 vallor: Unfortunately, up to a months delay looks likely. Jul 20 18:14:53 i want the damn flux capacitor first Jul 20 18:15:03 vallor: most of the first batch has sold. Jul 20 18:15:11 s/most/probably all/ Jul 20 18:15:11 SpeedEvil meant: vallor: probably all of the first batch has sold. Jul 20 18:15:23 And there has been no news on another batch being started. Jul 20 18:15:25 dang -- I had an order in on the 9th, but it seems to have been lost in the shuffle Jul 20 18:15:37 so I re-ordered Jul 20 18:15:49 Which does not of course mean that there isn't a batch in progress now. Jul 20 18:16:12 there's basically just no news period Jul 20 18:16:25 would I need to have a usb hub just to plug in the camera? Jul 20 18:16:38 No power. Jul 20 18:16:56 ah, dang Jul 20 18:16:56 * ScaredyCat spanks the numpty on mac-asterisk who has an autoreply turned on Jul 20 18:16:57 k Jul 20 18:17:13 which is auto replying to the list sending his autoreply Jul 20 18:18:14 vallor, if you're lucky, your camera might not need power Jul 20 18:18:45 Is there any word on how many units were in the first batch? Jul 20 18:19:34 or maybe I can find a self-powered cam (w/battery) Jul 20 18:19:36 One person on the mailing list mentioned that their cred card was charged? Anyone else? Jul 20 18:20:32 * vallor looks Jul 20 18:20:34 so far it's just jason1 i think Jul 20 18:20:44 4 people appear to have Jul 20 18:20:50 !!! Jul 20 18:20:53 i'm only #21!! Jul 20 18:21:03 credit card? Jul 20 18:21:10 vallor, oh, yeah, that's what i meant :) Jul 20 18:21:10 people pay to get a neo? Jul 20 18:21:17 vallor: probably won't work. Jul 20 18:21:22 galexande: I did say they weren't in order Jul 20 18:21:29 koen|train: no.. Jul 20 18:21:31 scaredy, fooey Jul 20 18:21:37 vallor: most USB devices use the 5V supply to sense a host, and wake up and listen for it. Jul 20 18:21:44 we've tried to pay and get a neo, neither has worked Jul 20 18:21:49 vallor: so even powered devices won't work. Jul 20 18:21:57 (tested with a printer, a scanner, and a hub) Jul 20 18:22:03 speed, bummer Jul 20 18:22:11 I'm #922, so at 4 per week that comes to... I'm gonna need a calculator. Jul 20 18:22:15 hmm, I wonder if I can get battery power onto the usb bus Jul 20 18:22:29 vallor, it's not hard as soldering iron hacks go Jul 20 18:22:33 vallor: simple cable. Jul 20 18:22:34 there's a battery powered usb hub out Jul 20 18:22:40 cyberpower makes it Jul 20 18:23:00 google is your fried Jul 20 18:23:06 !! schweet! Jul 20 18:23:06 tu Jul 20 18:23:07 lol Jul 20 18:23:09 just search battery powered usb hub Jul 20 18:23:11 fried what? Jul 20 18:23:18 eggs Jul 20 18:23:32 sausage Jul 20 18:23:34 i thought that was obvious Jul 20 18:23:40 i'll have to be more specific next time Jul 20 18:28:29 ozarka #922? I thought that the numbers began about #1800... Jul 20 18:28:56 ynezz, he's probably got ticket #2722 Jul 20 18:29:18 how do you see what ticket you got? Jul 20 18:29:23 has anyone received their neo yet..? Jul 20 18:29:30 oh in the email Jul 20 18:29:47 Right, conf# 27xx. Jul 20 18:30:01 ah Jul 20 18:31:11 3930 here Jul 20 18:31:31 high one :) Jul 20 18:31:38 ~p1 Jul 20 18:31:44 ~p1_owners Jul 20 18:31:56 * ynezz slaps mokobot Jul 20 18:32:04 ya -- the web site was getting slashdotted when I did my first order, seems they dropped it on the floor :( Jul 20 18:32:06 #3255 here. :) Jul 20 18:32:13 and no, my card hasn't been charged :P Jul 20 18:33:02 vallor: feel free to add yourself to http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/P1_Owners Jul 20 18:33:14 helps others track highest ticket number :) Jul 20 18:33:16 ~p1 owners Jul 20 18:33:16 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/P1_Owners Jul 20 18:33:18 okay :) Jul 20 18:33:44 ~group orders Jul 20 18:33:45 mokobot: p1 is http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/P1_Owners Jul 20 18:33:46 okay, ScaredyCat Jul 20 18:37:15 $ zgrep -li 'YES_I_DO' (everything) => nothing! :( Jul 20 18:37:41 I was hoping they had sent me one that I could reply to for the first order :\ Jul 20 18:40:00 i wonder what is special about jason1/cm/eric Jul 20 18:40:32 i guess eric is the only one out of order Jul 20 18:40:36 vallor: they're sending this email by hand probably and since Laforge(mailman in fic) has some crazy flu, you won't get any response until he's cured I think :) Jul 20 18:41:14 oh hmmm! Jul 20 18:41:34 wtf Jul 20 18:41:49 I don't think they're doing the YES_I_DO emails for new orders. Jul 20 18:41:52 You only get the YES_I_DO thing if you placed a really early order. Jul 20 18:42:15 Since there's a checkbox on the order screen that says, "I know this phone is not for me" Jul 20 18:42:18 mellon: my first order was on the 9th, right when I heard about it Jul 20 18:42:28 mellon: but I never heard anything back Jul 20 18:42:31 yeah, but we ordered on the 8th Jul 20 18:42:35 Bummer. Jul 20 18:43:17 although we have never met, my health is in decline and i wish to send my expenses to a worthy person. wire all your money to my account.... :-P Jul 20 18:43:22 mailman just gave me a box!!! Jul 20 18:43:28 ... no neo Jul 20 18:43:53 tragic. Jul 20 18:44:05 At least you got a box! Jul 20 18:44:28 is the empty box FCC compliant? Jul 20 18:44:49 no i think it is just ul listed Jul 20 18:44:59 I ordered on 10 July, got a YES_I_DO email on 13 July. Jul 20 18:45:15 if it's ROHS compliant, you can use it for suicide Jul 20 18:46:52 ozarka: so it means you're in first 1000 batch I think Jul 20 18:47:06 how usable is the neo1973 with given carriers now? (tmobile for example) Jul 20 18:47:14 bkruse, software = no Jul 20 18:47:20 galexande: gotcha Jul 20 18:47:32 September software = yes? Jul 20 18:47:33 but the gsm module should talk to t-moblie no problemo :) Jul 20 18:47:41 So there were 1000 phones in the first batch? Jul 20 18:47:41 ohrly? Jul 20 18:47:51 ozarka: i believe so Jul 20 18:48:00 galexande: think it would operate find as a normal phone now? Jul 20 18:48:10 or should i get it for development purposes only Jul 20 18:48:32 bkruse, a phone that you have to hook a usb cable up to, ssh into, and then type AT commands into a serial terminal in order to send a text message.. Jul 20 18:48:45 galexande: great, sounds good Jul 20 18:48:49 galexande: thank you :] Jul 20 18:49:12 sms as in shitty message service? Jul 20 18:49:19 phrozen, yeah Jul 20 18:49:23 re-hello Jul 20 18:49:39 meh, sms's are for weaklngs anyway Jul 20 18:49:40 :P Jul 20 18:50:12 irc email im - in that order pls kthx Jul 20 18:50:16 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/P1_Owners <0--- thar! :) Jul 20 18:51:20 whoho. 4 payments processed. Jul 20 18:51:44 * don-o hopes the sarcasm is obvious Jul 20 18:52:36 don-o, are you saying you aren't order #1825 Jul 20 18:52:53 well, I've fought with my Treo 700p for over a year, it's buggier than a mountain lake at sunset Jul 20 18:53:13 vallor: i've got a 650 so i know just what you mean Jul 20 18:53:14 vallor, stop you're making me hungry Jul 20 18:53:16 so this will be very nice :) Jul 20 18:53:20 vallor: all things considored it's a good phone Jul 20 18:53:57 galexande: i havent ordered yet. Jul 20 18:54:07 vallor: i still need to switch to gsm though, it's rediculous what you have to pay to get a new treo from verizon for Jul 20 18:54:44 BryceLeo: I had a 650 before the 700p -- the latter is buggier -- for instance, if you sms another 700p, it sends back a return receipt -- if you are in the sms app when that receipt arrives, the phone locks up Jul 20 18:55:01 hahahaha vallor Jul 20 18:55:22 phones should have a big warning sticker "I contain closed-source software. All bugs are final and non-negotiable" Jul 20 18:55:24 vallor: that's fantastic! that's just what i've always wanted!!! OMG GSHZZZ I WANT ONE!!!! Jul 20 18:55:41 lol, i do like plua though Jul 20 18:55:43 coding on the go Jul 20 18:55:50 galexande: just an example of what Verizon/Palm won't fix (or even acknowledge) -- my gf has a 700p, also, and the same thing happens with her Jul 20 18:57:23 hmm, I wonder if I could create a plua watchdog Jul 20 18:57:55 vallor: how do you mean? i don't think it has any treo specific bindings, just palm bindings Jul 20 19:00:03 BryceLeo: not sure what I meant, maybe as simple as setting a timer interrupt to signal the program ever 5 seconds or something (in the background) -- if a program stopped responding (and if it's even possible to determine that), kill it Jul 20 19:00:34 a "spinkiller", if you will... Jul 20 19:00:37 i would rather reboot device :p Jul 20 19:03:47 vallor: i think that's a pretty good idea, has a decent possibility of success Jul 20 19:03:56 ynezz: you've never owned a treo have you? Jul 20 19:04:20 so... should I jump in with Plua-2.8b8, or just tough it out with 1.1? Jul 20 19:07:29 BryceLeo: I'm going to get a student acount shortly Jul 20 19:11:02 yay, I got it to "hello world" w/out looking at the programming docs (yet)... ;P Jul 20 19:13:05 join #wxwidgets Jul 20 19:19:50 Sigh. On user interfaces. Jul 20 19:20:15 You have some plastic trim for a wheel with decorative nuts that can't be turned. Jul 20 19:20:21 A car wheel. Jul 20 19:20:24 vallor: sor for the long away time, i'm installing vista on a laptop and it was givving me hassles. Jul 20 19:20:46 vallor: definately use 2,8b 1.1 uses plua 4.0 which isn't as nice to code with and if you use format() it crashes your palm Jul 20 19:21:09 ewanm89_laptop: well then it's only a matter of time till you get a device! Jul 20 19:21:10 Do you A) Pick a size that the supplied wrench won't fit. B) pick a size that the included wrench will fit and make them so fragile that they will break off before the user thinks there may be something wrong. Jul 20 19:21:17 snazzy, that's what I dl'ed and installed, 2.8b Jul 20 19:21:50 vallor: haha good choice! Jul 20 19:23:01 speed, am i a honda? Jul 20 19:23:15 with a missing hubcap :) Jul 20 19:23:24 Twas a Nissan Micra. Jul 20 19:23:34 Brake caliper was binding. Jul 20 19:25:48 *sigh* i love how visa checks the "com puters" performance, no idea why that space is there, but hey glad they're checking it Jul 20 19:25:54 vista* Jul 20 19:30:46 does the channel mind chat about plua ? Jul 20 19:31:09 hahah i don't think the channel is too full Jul 20 19:31:14 i don't think this channel minds any inteligent chat. i'm actually getting to enjoy it Jul 20 19:31:54 atleast we're opinionated folks here, that keeps things productive Jul 20 19:32:16 well, I tried the example here: http://meusite.uai.com.br/~mmand/plua/pluadoc.htm using pcolor(prgb(255,0,0),prgb(0,0,0)) Jul 20 19:32:26 and it complains when I run it Jul 20 19:32:41 i do belive that that's plua 1.1 syntax Jul 20 19:32:55 [string "text"]:1:attempt to call global 'prgb' (a nil value) Jul 20 19:33:23 * vallor looks for plua2 docs Jul 20 19:33:33 * BryceLeo checks around Jul 20 19:34:11 you have to load something(lib, module or so) so prgb() is working I think Jul 20 19:34:11 found it Jul 20 19:34:33 ynezz: ah, k Jul 20 19:34:47 BryceLeo: there's a pluadoc.zip in the yahoo group files Jul 20 19:34:58 haha i was just beginning to type that Jul 20 19:35:07 because i found my own zip and went to find out where i got it from Jul 20 19:36:00 file:///tmp/pluadoc.htm <-- !!! :) Jul 20 19:37:14 lol Jul 20 19:37:57 file:///home/bryce/Downloads/plua-2.0b8/doc/pluadoc.htm <--- for me Jul 20 19:38:48 hey has anyone run openmoko on a HTC phone ? Jul 20 19:38:59 not (the magician) Jul 20 19:39:16 Look at Supported Hardware on the wiki Jul 20 19:40:24 ah, it's now "screen.color()" and "screen.rgb()" -- made it work :) Jul 20 19:41:01 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Mono]] [[Media_Player]] [[File_Save_Dialog]] [[Feed_Reader]] [[OpenMoko_Local_Groups:_Ottawa]] [[Neo1973_Hardware/ru]] [[OpenMoko_Local_Groups]] [[P1_Owners]] [[Neo1973_Battery]] [[Talk:Wishlist:Text_Input]] Jul 20 19:41:34 SpeedEvil: wiki says nothing about HTC, but find openmoko on HTC magician in the net Jul 20 19:41:43 vallor: heh, yeah it's a whole lot more logical now Jul 20 19:42:15 BryceLeo: But I'm already writing code and I probably have to wait 'till the next run. Jul 20 19:43:16 ewanm89_laptop: i'm in your boat sort of, I have over $1000 in vet bills to pay on my horse, so i'm a little in the hole Jul 20 19:43:46 dang BryceLeo! Jul 20 19:43:52 sorry to hear about your horse Jul 20 19:44:05 vallor: me too, but i'm just glad that he's ok Jul 20 19:44:17 OGrandeDiEnne: Wikify! Jul 20 19:48:37 ok Jul 20 19:52:43 OGrandeDiEnne: bless you, sir, I can next-day that sucker and fiddle over the weekend... Jul 20 19:53:06 is it openmoko running with its default winderz, or do you boot Linux on the beastie? Jul 20 19:54:11 winderz? Jul 20 19:54:18 whats that? Jul 20 19:54:56 what you see when you buy an htc from the store and then turn it on Jul 20 19:56:10 winderz Jul 20 19:56:11 woglinde: winderz -- aka windoze -- aka losedoze -- aka Redmond Virus Jul 20 19:56:26 i just asked, because i would buy an HTC now Jul 20 19:57:12 but i need openmoko... Jul 20 19:57:22 lol Jul 20 19:57:28 openmoko isnt ready yet Jul 20 19:58:00 don't lie! Jul 20 19:58:24 use gpe on htc for now Jul 20 19:58:43 is enaught ready to call or send sms ? Jul 20 19:59:00 yes, you can send sms Jul 20 19:59:13 There was a farmer had a dog and BINGO was his name-o! Jul 20 19:59:15 http://xda-developers.com/ Jul 20 20:00:24 speaking of treo -- I wonder if my new bluetooth kbd will talk to it :D Jul 20 20:00:45 vallor depends on the profiles Jul 20 20:02:42 vallor:it's always possible Jul 20 20:03:20 bryceleo??? when your bt stack dont support the profile you get nothing Jul 20 20:04:52 woglinde: how do you mean Jul 20 20:05:00 well, there's always the possibility of "changing its mind" ... Jul 20 20:05:02 http://grack.com/programming/misc/TreoLinux.html Jul 20 20:05:32 bryceleo bt defines profiles to communicate btw. devices Jul 20 20:05:56 there are headphones handsfree and hundres of other profiles Jul 20 20:06:03 right Jul 20 20:06:15 grrr... i really wanted my neo for the weekend Jul 20 20:06:26 it looks like i am going to have to do actual work again this weekend Jul 20 20:06:36 and when for example your headphones has only handsfree and your bt stack on the device dont support it Jul 20 20:06:46 you cant use ther headthings Jul 20 20:06:50 right Jul 20 20:07:28 i thought there were bt keyboards for the treo Jul 20 20:08:11 im back with another question here... does the phone have an integrated wireless 802.11 in it? Jul 20 20:08:11 Currently sold Neo1973 GTA01B_v04 (P1) doesn't have WiFi, GTA02 (P2) which is scheduled for October will have WiFi with free (libre) drivers (Atheros AR6K): http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ#Q:_What_is_the_rationale_behind_the_exclusion_of_WiFi.3F Jul 20 20:08:13 I didnt say it wont work Jul 20 20:08:31 holy shit you are clairvoyant Jul 20 20:09:07 woglinde: ook, that's why i said that it's a possiblility Jul 20 20:11:08 http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/NS5607883840.html <--- there seems to be a lot of chatter about linux on smartphones/pda's this year Jul 20 20:12:13 screw chatter, i want shipments :) Jul 20 20:12:21 lol Jul 20 20:12:31 christmas Jul 20 20:13:42 http://www.access-company.com/home.html -- they'll be at linux world Jul 20 20:13:51 This was supposed to be a birthday present for myself... Jul 20 20:13:58 heh Jul 20 20:14:04 ...but I guess it could be a xmas present instead. Jul 20 20:14:07 the october one could be one for my birthday Jul 20 20:14:11 but... Jul 20 20:14:13 -_- Jul 20 20:14:23 BINGO AGAIN! http://www.access-company.com/products/linux/alp.html Jul 20 20:14:32 i don't really think the the neo should go mass market till january Jul 20 20:14:34 but that's just me Jul 20 20:14:56 There have been doubts expressed that it'll be consumer-ready in Oct. Jul 20 20:14:58 i don't think it will until it's ready Jul 20 20:15:02 valor access may verywell have a better polished offering out sooner than anyone else Jul 20 20:15:32 ~lart apt Jul 20 20:15:32 * apt changes ewanm89_laptop's permissions to 0777 and tells the world Jul 20 20:15:32 * mokobot beats apt into protomatter with the andromeda galaxy Jul 20 20:15:56 mokobot: 6*5 Jul 20 20:15:56 30 Jul 20 20:16:34 mokobot, protomatter was banned Jul 20 20:18:52 mokobot: lart #openmoko galexande Jul 20 20:18:52 * mokobot whips out his power stapler and staples #openmoko galexande's foot to the floor Jul 20 20:19:10 mokobot: lart galexande Jul 20 20:19:11 * mokobot beats the living hamstercrap out of galexande Jul 20 20:19:39 Another fully open-source-based phone went on sale on Monday, offering developers the chance to build their own mobile Linux applications. Jul 20 20:19:46 http://news.com.com/Second+open+Linux+phone+goes+on+sale/2100-1039_3-6195496.html?tag=st.ref.goo Jul 20 20:20:26 * mokobot whips out a hot clue gun and makes sure that galexande is stuck to the floor, courtesy of ewanm89_laptop Jul 20 20:20:34 greenphone isn't fully open Jul 20 20:20:49 Nor is Neo. Jul 20 20:20:52 It's more open. Jul 20 20:21:01 GPS is a binary blob ATM though. Jul 20 20:21:09 Which is a vastly more important bit. Jul 20 20:21:13 err Jul 20 20:21:13 less Jul 20 20:21:14 Plus the greenphone is really expensive. Jul 20 20:21:31 lol but the neo is more open than the greenphone Jul 20 20:22:13 Yes we know the neo is more open, if you wish you could build openmoko without agps (then fully open). Jul 20 20:22:33 True. Jul 20 20:22:34 and here's an overview: http://www.linuxdevices.com/articles/AT9423084269.html Jul 20 20:22:44 I can't do that with the greenphone. Jul 20 20:22:50 Though AIUI - the GPS software doesn't actually implement the 'A'. Jul 20 20:24:34 I suppose the neo is *the* first fully open phone if I can choose to take out the propietary software. Jul 20 20:27:20 You can do that with many phones. Jul 20 20:27:29 Most just aren't sold that way. Jul 20 20:27:37 any news on shipping? Jul 20 20:27:50 No mintee. Jul 20 20:27:57 k Jul 20 20:28:08 * mintee goes back to idleing until monday Jul 20 20:29:36 Anyone here tried the greenphone? Jul 20 20:29:55 i got to use one for about a minute Jul 20 20:30:08 * nbd doesn't like the greenphone Jul 20 20:30:13 it was just a phone Jul 20 20:30:13 Was it a spectacular, life-chaging minute? Jul 20 20:30:20 they claim it's open, but it contains lots of crappy proprietary components Jul 20 20:30:22 ozarka: not at all Jul 20 20:30:54 * ljp is an expert ion greenphone Jul 20 20:30:55 i think somebody should make a phone and then not write any software for it Jul 20 20:31:02 and then ship it to me and let me worry about software Jul 20 20:31:04 ''Motorola Rokr E6 (aka E690) -- [Dec. 2006] -- Taiwanese pop superstar Jay Chou launched Motorola's thin, Linux-powered Rokr E6 multimedia phone, at the ITU Telecom World tradeshow in Hong Kong. The fourth-generation music phone is just over half an inch thick (14mm), and features a 2-megapixel camera and business card reader.'' Jul 20 20:31:34 galexande: neo-1973 almost fits that perfectly. Jul 20 20:31:50 vallor: yeah it's just about impossible to get the code,this guy wrote up all that he had to go through for it Jul 20 20:31:58 vallor: they want people to do all dev in java Jul 20 20:31:59 ewan, except nobody's shipping it aoseunthaoesnuthaoesunth Jul 20 20:34:54 aose waht?? Jul 20 20:35:01 Impossible to get the code for the ROKR? Jul 20 20:35:03 !#@%$#$#%$#@!!##$%#@ Jul 20 20:35:44 ozarka: i'm not sure which motorola phone model it was to be exactl Jul 20 20:35:49 Isn't it here: https://opensource.motorola.com/sf/projects/rokre6 Jul 20 20:36:16 I don't think you can do anything with it. There doesn't appear to be an SDK or any dev support. Jul 20 20:36:18 hahaha well then that's clearly not the one Jul 20 20:36:39 maybe they learned their lesson, the story i'm thinking of is from probably a year ago when their first one came out Jul 20 20:38:13 http://developer.motorola.com/technologies/linuxos/devguides/ Jul 20 20:38:19 take a look at how they only support java dev Jul 20 20:38:34 nothing for c/c++ or any systems development Jul 20 20:39:50 Yeah. Kind of pointless. Jul 20 20:41:22 yeah Jul 20 20:49:24 ya, no native compiled apps for moto linux Jul 20 20:51:19 ljp, are you really an expert on the greenphone? Jul 20 20:52:23 ozarka: that's an odd question Jul 20 20:52:27 ozarka: yes. what do you want to know Jul 20 20:52:41 brb Jul 20 20:53:39 Just curious if you liked it. Jul 20 20:53:49 Fun to use? Fun for developers? Jul 20 20:55:51 he's troll, he have to say "it's cool, it's fun" :) Jul 20 20:58:04 oh Jul 20 20:58:12 ynezz: I wouldn't say troll, he's way to polite. (I did read the blog post) Jul 20 20:59:11 ozarka: http://labs.trolltech.com/blogs/2007/07/09/meanwhile-back-at-the-ranch/ and http://zecke.blogspot.com/2007/07/lovely-respond-to-lorn-potter-of.html Jul 20 20:59:15 ok, I meant Troll as in trolltech :) Jul 20 20:59:25 no offense Jul 20 20:59:28 labeling people as trolls is counterproductive. they'll show their colors eventually, reguardless of whats said about them. :) Jul 20 20:59:31 none taken Jul 20 20:59:40 i am a troll Jul 20 20:59:45 ynezz: Hehe, maybe time for me to cut down on the /. reading a bit Jul 20 20:59:50 oh. trolltech. -ENONPRODUCTIVE Jul 20 20:59:52 * juri_ RUNS Jul 20 21:00:03 ? Jul 20 21:00:14 * CM hands out fireproof blankets Jul 20 21:00:21 qt uber alles! Jul 20 21:00:22 * mmazur ducks Jul 20 21:00:51 heh.. not from I hear http://www.vanille-media.de/site/index.php/2007/07/20/back-from-guadec/ Jul 20 21:01:03 * mokobot hands ScaredyCat Jason1's neo Jul 20 21:01:29 1000 persons, 1000 opinions... Jul 20 21:01:51 all of them wong, except mine ;) Jul 20 21:02:29 Thanks for the blog links. Jul 20 21:02:29 ozarka: I think so, but I am biased. it does have some limitations.. i.e. old kernel that we got stuck with Jul 20 21:03:05 Looking at the comments, it's funny how the open source community likes to tear each other apart. :-) Jul 20 21:03:53 ozarka: The NIH-syndrome is strong in these ones.. ;) Jul 20 21:05:31 Arguing is much easier than coding. Jul 20 21:05:42 Controlling is much easier than cooperating. Jul 20 21:06:20 well, zecke and I go way back.. :) Jul 20 21:06:20 arguing is easier than waiting patiently, too Jul 20 21:06:23 mellon: you need dual monitors. Argue on irc on one, code on the other. Jul 20 21:06:32 we argued about opie as well Jul 20 21:06:35 Also two brains. Jul 20 21:06:45 Otherwise, very inefficient. Better to do one or the other. Jul 20 21:07:31 Oh, you're the guy who posted the thing about the greenphone? Heh Jul 20 21:08:26 Personally I prefer QT to Gtk, but what are you going to do? Jul 20 21:09:01 well. just perhaps someone will get qtopia on the fic1973 :) Jul 20 21:09:06 Somebody pre-emptively call Godwin so we can stop right there ;) Jul 20 21:09:09 Somebody? :') Jul 20 21:10:38 i like my workflow best: code, compile, while waiting for compile, argue on irc! :) Jul 20 21:10:53 Clearly you need a faster computer. Jul 20 21:11:23 dual core 1.6G, using ccache for faster compiles. Clearly, you need bigger projects to contribute to. :) Jul 20 21:11:28 Personally I'm pathetically distracted by the whole "when are they going to ship my Neo?" question. Jul 20 21:11:46 Well, it's taking for bloody ever to build OpenMoko, I will admit. Jul 20 21:11:46 i got mine, and it doesn't work...so who is better off? Jul 20 21:11:58 ;) Jul 20 21:12:00 Oh no! A phase 0, or phase 1? Jul 20 21:12:17 Anyway, at least you can fondle it and whisper "my preciousssssss...." Jul 20 21:12:24 1 i believe...since it's all black and has a date on it of 4/20/2007 Jul 20 21:12:40 HA Jul 20 21:12:52 Seriously? Jul 20 21:12:57 doesnt work in what way? Jul 20 21:12:58 i'm about to flash it now....decided to join the channel incase I needed a little help Jul 20 21:13:02 I don't care if it works, I just need to look cool while waiting for my non-fat latte at Starbucks. Jul 20 21:13:12 when I boot it...all I see is the splash screen, doesn't go anywhere else... Jul 20 21:13:13 Darn skippy! Jul 20 21:13:42 Did you get the debug board? Jul 20 21:13:48 no :( Jul 20 21:13:58 Oof. Jul 20 21:14:07 Have you tried loading QTopia on it? I hear that's nice. Jul 20 21:14:20 didn't come with anything but the case, cable and usb outlet charger Jul 20 21:14:24 Are they unpacking each phone, flashing it, and then repacking it? That would explain why it's taking so long. Jul 20 21:14:45 erasing everything Jul 20 21:14:49 if they need more employees... ;) Jul 20 21:15:17 * mokobot mugs Jason1 for his neo and gives it to ScaredyCat Jul 20 21:15:24 i've written them to erase everything so customs aren't able to prove it's usable, hence i don't need to pay VAT :p Jul 20 21:15:32 hahahahahahha Jul 20 21:15:50 ynezz: you don't have to erase anything for that ;) Jul 20 21:15:54 anyone ever seen the "bad magic number" error? Jul 20 21:15:54 Did you put yourself on the P1_Owners wiki page? Jul 20 21:16:05 koen: :) Jul 20 21:16:06 What's printing the error? Jul 20 21:16:06 nope Jul 20 21:16:15 Ah. Jul 20 21:16:22 when I access the boot menu and then select boot Jul 20 21:16:42 Hm, that's encouraging, actually. Just means that the image isn't runnable. Jul 20 21:17:03 Did you get any feedback after the YES_I_DO message? Jul 20 21:17:40 I have not seen anything out of this phone other than the splash screen and the boot menu....that's it Jul 20 21:18:03 so I should flash the uImage? Jul 20 21:19:03 I can't give you advice on that because I haven't trod that path yet, but that sounds like what you need to do, possibly. Jul 20 21:19:19 i'll try it now....and blame you if it doesn't work ;) Jul 20 21:19:24 Oh, perfect. Jul 20 21:19:26 wish me luck pls Jul 20 21:19:34 exit Jul 20 21:19:37 Good luck. Jul 20 21:19:40 woops...that's not my terminal Jul 20 21:19:59 ljp: so can we expect qtopia port for neo? :) Jul 20 21:20:14 heh. If you're local to someone with a debug board, and you get desperate, maybe you can get some help. :') Jul 20 21:20:21 jfreels needs it Jul 20 21:20:49 yeah, I dunno...someone in Atlanta probably has one Jul 20 21:21:23 jfreels: Are you in the ATL? I just moved from there. :-( Jul 20 21:21:48 Someone in Marietta. Jul 20 21:21:58 yeah, work in ATL, and live in east cobb marietta Jul 20 21:22:05 Also someone in Birmingham. Jul 20 21:22:39 i just saw that on the list...maybe I will try and contact them Jul 20 21:22:46 Well, I guess Marietta's closer, although that guy has a pretty high number. Jul 20 21:23:54 command not working :\ Jul 20 21:24:04 "could not claim interface" Jul 20 21:24:21 Woah. Jul 20 21:24:36 i can terminal into it.....shit Jul 20 21:24:38 wtf Jul 20 21:24:54 ? Jul 20 21:25:02 oh wait...shit Jul 20 21:25:11 it only has one interface...it's suppose to have 6 Jul 20 21:25:12 300 geeks are leaning over your virtual shoulder wondering what's going on... Jul 20 21:25:29 a lot of shitting apparently Jul 20 21:25:34 so it would seem. Jul 20 21:26:13 We need a web cam. Jul 20 21:26:17 Totally. Jul 20 21:26:33 jfreels could charge $8.95 a month for us to just look at his device. Jul 20 21:26:41 Heh. $$$ Jul 20 21:26:50 jfreels: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Flashing_openmoko might help. If you are not 100% sure don't flash uboot or you might brick it. Jul 20 21:27:18 yeah, I am looking at that documentation currently...not working! Jul 20 21:28:18 jfreels: if you get a second, could you tell us what email you got from fic, if any? I'm trying to figure out if I should panic or not. Jul 20 21:28:25 roflmao : The perfect Muder, quote 'rich people are different from you and me' Jul 20 21:28:25 jfreels: did you update kernel+rootfs? Jul 20 21:28:29 'how so' Jul 20 21:28:38 (that is, if a phone is going to show up unannounced on my doorstep on Monday whilst I'm in Chicago) Jul 20 21:28:42 'they have a fuck lot more money for a start' Jul 20 21:29:02 I got it free....like a month ago Jul 20 21:29:09 mellon: don't you think you'll see the charge on your cc before it ships? Jul 20 21:29:10 Kensan: trying that now Jul 20 21:29:12 ah. perfect, thanks. :') Jul 20 21:29:31 jfreels: what images are you using? Buildhost? Jul 20 21:29:31 ozarka: probably not - it looks like Citibank updates their website about two days in arrears. Jul 20 21:29:48 buildhost, correct Jul 20 21:31:09 mellon: They will send you a payment confirmation email as soon as they process your card. Jul 20 21:31:36 Ah, okay. I wasn't sure if people got email or if they were just stalking their credit cards. Jul 20 21:32:10 s/as soon as/when they eventually/ Jul 20 21:32:19 mellon: Yeah, they have started (slowly) processing cards. I got my "Payment Processed" email several days ago. Jul 20 21:32:38 jfreels: is it Phase0 or Phase 1 (BV03 or BV04)? Jul 20 21:32:58 Jason1_: slowly? slowly would be 10 a day.. :) Jul 20 21:33:09 haltingly Jul 20 21:33:17 any shipping notice yet Jason1? Jul 20 21:33:23 good word use, galexande Jul 20 21:33:36 reversingly would be a good word, if it existed Jul 20 21:33:38 glacially Jul 20 21:33:40 4 Jul 20 21:33:44 ScaredyCat: LOL I have been away for a while. I saw the Wiki showed that #1880 had been proccessed. Have they really got htat far? Jul 20 21:33:46 still isn't working Jul 20 21:33:54 no... Jul 20 21:33:58 oh wait... Jul 20 21:34:06 they skipped everyone else Jason1_ Jul 20 21:34:09 ScaredyCat: Nope :( of couse, at this point, I am not surprised Jul 20 21:34:11 they've done 4 people Jul 20 21:34:17 you included Jul 20 21:34:23 ScaredyCat: That doesnt make any sense Jul 20 21:34:34 jfreels: after flashing the kernel you should get past the bootsplash... Jul 20 21:34:37 4 people who are into the whole 'wiki' thing, anyways Jul 20 21:34:53 true Jul 20 21:34:59 i'm into the wiki thing and have order #1841 and no billing confirmation, no cc activity Jul 20 21:35:05 FIC really sucks at the B2C stuff Jul 20 21:35:11 Kensan, it says "can not claim interface 2: Operation not permitted" Jul 20 21:35:40 sounds like a permissions thing Jul 20 21:35:40 All they need now is a automated phone system that won't connect you to a human :) Jul 20 21:35:45 jfreels: right after bootsplash or do you see the Tux? Jul 20 21:35:52 nope Jul 20 21:36:05 nothing comes after the bootsplash Jul 20 21:36:23 yeah, press 1 to hang up, 2 for some hold music, 3 for total silence Jul 20 21:36:42 galexande: That sucks. I was hoping they were actually processing cards now. I was hoping to see them start shipping those first 50 or so orders on Monday Jul 20 21:37:11 jfreels: Are you able to flash the phone or is dfu-utils giving the error msg? Jul 20 21:37:12 ScaredyCat: lol' Jul 20 21:37:27 dfu-utils is giving the error Jul 20 21:37:40 They've bitten of a kind of annoying chunk - the whole "charging your card in Taiwan dollars and back-converting the currency to U.S. dollars" thing has got to be causing them immense heartburn. Jul 20 21:37:51 HA Jul 20 21:38:20 I was hoping to see them start shipping the first 900 or so orders. Jul 20 21:38:26 Me too. Jul 20 21:38:42 jfreels: Is the Neo the only device hooked to USB? Jul 20 21:38:46 mellon: they should have just quoted tiawnese $'s Jul 20 21:38:51 ozarka: I would like them to ship the first 1-2 orders. I REALLY think they should test UPS... Jul 20 21:38:55 Yeah. Oops. Jul 20 21:39:19 Kensan: only thing Jul 20 21:39:26 jfreels: what does "./dfu-utils --list" return? Jul 20 21:39:31 test UPS? i think its pretty well tested :) Jul 20 21:40:13 don-o: Nah, I REALLY, REALLY think they should send at leat one test order...Maybe the first order... Jul 20 21:40:21 Found Runtime: [0x1457:0x5119] devnum=0, cfg=0, intf=2, alt=0 name="UNDEFINED" Jul 20 21:40:39 naaa, they need to test 1826 Jul 20 21:40:41 don-o: hint: I am the first order :) Jul 20 21:40:41 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Wishlist:Graphics_Tablet]] [[Input_Method]] Jul 20 21:41:15 jason: your selfless desire to debug the process is inspiring to the rest of us. Jul 20 21:41:22 Jason1_: oH! LOL i get it Jul 20 21:41:22 jfreels: is your Neo in DFU-mode? Jul 20 21:41:36 See mellon understands. I am willin to "take one for the team" Jul 20 21:41:44 Jason1_: you are the FIRST? you should get some kind of badge or change your nick. Jul 20 21:42:01 oh the '1' is for that? Jul 20 21:42:08 * don-o laughs Jul 20 21:42:14 don-o: Not really, but it seems to fit Jul 20 21:42:23 MokoOne (sort of like airforce one) is a suggestion. Jul 20 21:42:35 don-o: LOL, love it. Jul 20 21:42:42 Maybe Jason1_'s neo will arrive in a golden fur case. Jul 20 21:42:45 'bastard' would be more suitable ;) Jul 20 21:42:50 lol Jul 20 21:42:52 heh Jul 20 21:42:54 Kensan: it doesn't seem like it will go into that mode Jul 20 21:42:56 so, that'd make me "moko99999999..." ;) Jul 20 21:43:07 we should all change our nicks to our order numbers. Jul 20 21:43:16 jfreels: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Flashing_openmoko#Putting_the_device_into_DFU_mode Jul 20 21:43:26 juri_: no, that's ewanm89_laptop Jul 20 21:43:35 never says "Switching..." Jul 20 21:43:35 When | If it ships, we can change nicks to UPS tracking numbers. Jul 20 21:43:37 :\ Jul 20 21:43:48 ozarka: awesome Jul 20 21:43:52 lol Jul 20 21:44:05 don-o-1Z544892740194 Jul 20 21:44:16 :D Jul 20 21:44:24 might as well add estimated arrival date to the nick, and current city Jul 20 21:44:33 Order1819: Dont make me hurt you Jul 20 21:44:36 jfreels: disconnect Neo from Host. Turn power off and on again and hold AUX. Connect to Host once you are in Uboot. Jul 20 21:44:40 a google map mashup of all neos in-shippment Jul 20 21:44:48 hahahah Jul 20 21:44:54 /nick Aria1Z1234566121431231RidgwayCO Jul 20 21:45:06 I feel like a number... Jul 20 21:46:05 tried that Jul 20 21:46:09 quite a few times Jul 20 21:46:41 I can do lsusb and other type of things...and terminal into it Jul 20 21:46:48 1Z410E7W0326674441 is my tracking number. Jul 20 21:46:56 I promise i'm not lying. Jul 20 21:47:06 noidd: so do they email you your tracking #? Jul 20 21:47:08 noidd: Prove it Jul 20 21:47:15 not for your neo thugh Jul 20 21:47:19 though Jul 20 21:47:22 It's not for my neo Jul 20 21:47:30 its for 3 packs of 5xDV tapes Jul 20 21:47:39 jfreels: It seems uboot is there and the USB-link is working but the phone won't switch into DFU-Mode... Jul 20 21:47:49 pH5 - You saw the mail by the russian guy? Jul 20 21:48:05 noidd: Thats nice Jul 20 21:48:40 cbrake: They are supposed to send a shipment notification, but of course, nobody has gotten one yet. Jul 20 21:48:54 Jason1: ok, thanks just wondering Jul 20 21:48:55 * CM is hoping for 2 weeks delay right now Jul 20 21:49:03 Vacation!!! :D Jul 20 21:49:08 pH5 - Ahh, just found your mail... Jul 20 21:49:12 he Jul 20 21:49:16 then you forfeit your device Jul 20 21:49:20 im secretly hoping that i'll be able to buy a neo at OSCON Jul 20 21:49:30 yup. automatic forfeit Jul 20 21:49:38 Wow, what an optimist! We need more people like you. Jul 20 21:49:38 ScaredyCat: No, never.. It's my preciousssss Jul 20 21:49:49 CM: LOL! Jul 20 21:50:09 the nerd-o-meter just hit a new high Jul 20 21:50:17 CM: I can just see you clutching your Neo hanging around your neck Jul 20 21:50:24 jfreels: Did you try it with removing the battery? Jul 20 21:50:37 Jason1: Hehe.. Stroking the sides.. :P Jul 20 21:50:52 ha. careful, we're treading into iPhone fanboy territory Jul 20 21:51:15 don-o: Don't worry, I won't start touching myself holding it ;) Jul 20 21:51:27 haha. uh. i mean ewwwwwwww Jul 20 21:51:27 guess i'll have to use the SD card to get them on there Jul 20 21:51:37 * CM tries hard not to picture any true iPhone fanboys Jul 20 21:52:03 it won't turn on if I remove the battery (YES, plugged into usb) Jul 20 21:52:13 lol Jul 20 21:52:49 jfreels: I mean turn off phone, remove battery, wait ~10secs, put battery back in, ... Jul 20 21:53:32 *trying* Jul 20 21:54:30 so at the boot menu, do I just plug it in? or select "set console to USB" then plug it in? or what? Jul 20 21:56:00 jfreels: imho just pluging it in should work... Jul 20 21:56:10 okay, trying now Jul 20 21:56:58 nothing :\ Jul 20 21:57:41 Elrond: yup, he already showed up on irc one day. too bad I was afk. Jul 20 21:58:21 jfreels: hm... if you don't get it into DFU-mode you can't flash it without a debug board I guess. Jul 20 21:58:50 well you can still flash through the terminal, I just don't have my SD card on me here at work Jul 20 21:59:01 guess i'll have to try that Jul 20 21:59:34 jfreels: oh ok. Something with your uboot seems funky... Jul 20 21:59:51 pH5 - Ahh. Can you just add me to the ML? Jul 20 22:00:10 yeah it does...i'll be back on later tonight if anyone cares to hear me bitch about this issue Jul 20 22:00:54 jfreels: can you put it in the discussion page on the wiki? I would like to know how you fix it. Jul 20 22:06:03 Elrond: sure. ...+linuxtogo.org@... or something sphyrna specific? Jul 20 22:06:32 pH5 - +linuxtogo.org is fine. Jul 20 22:06:43 I hope it's not too much traffic anyway. ;o) Jul 20 22:06:58 lol. probably not Jul 20 22:07:21 CM: Got a gift for you: http://www.chooseopen.com/gollum-OpenMoko.jpg Jul 20 22:07:58 lol - accurate picture tooo Jul 20 22:08:10 Jason1: sweet. Jul 20 22:08:47 hehe. That will be all of us, some day Jul 20 22:09:01 Hmm, who's that guy? http://www.flickr.com/photos/natatwo/sets/72157600841354683/detail/ Jul 20 22:09:38 wow. nice comparison. Jul 20 22:12:01 those are soem good shots. Hoewever, the camera makes the Neo look fat. Jul 20 22:13:27 assuming that the iphone has similar durability to the neo.. those pictures are not flattering for the neo at all Jul 20 22:13:53 daMaestro: Assuming that the the Neo is durable... Jul 20 22:14:07 yes, it is a two way streem Jul 20 22:14:08 hmm Jul 20 22:14:11 the doughnut hole at the bottom of the neo looks gratuitous Jul 20 22:14:14 damnit.. i need another latte Jul 20 22:14:21 id rather have a shorter phone and no loop hole Jul 20 22:14:29 Jason1: You need to do the test when it arrives. Jul 20 22:14:33 Jason1: Will It BLEND! Jul 20 22:14:37 Jason1: Will it Blend! Jul 20 22:14:42 NO!!! Jul 20 22:14:45 SpeedEvil: beat me to it. :) Jul 20 22:15:47 yeah, see, you cant hang your iPhone from your neck :) Jul 20 22:16:19 so tha tit dips in your soup when you lean forward? Jul 20 22:16:37 s/tha tit/that it/ Jul 20 22:16:37 ScaredyCat meant: so that it dips in your soup when you lean forward? Jul 20 22:16:52 apt-- Jul 20 22:16:54 lol Jul 20 22:17:00 thats what the soup-sensor is for Jul 20 22:17:11 LOL Jul 20 22:17:23 That big iPhone screen is only 320x480? Jul 20 22:17:34 Jason1: criminal, isnt it? :) Jul 20 22:17:38 hi Jul 20 22:17:52 meep Jul 20 22:17:54 Jason1: actually i think the neo's DPI is rediculously high Jul 20 22:18:23 don-o: Or is it perfectly optimized? Jul 20 22:18:29 ;) Jul 20 22:18:34 Jason1: oh! i see that now! :) Jul 20 22:19:39 don-o: I cant wait to see it. It shouldbe much clearer than the typicall Windows Mobile PDA. The higher resoltuion though is going to make certain things look small though, right? Jul 20 22:19:42 counter Jul 20 22:19:42 (last update 2007-07-19 00:49) http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter : Order https://direct.openmoko.com/ ; Shipping prob. 65% in 06:50:06 (0.285±0.3 days) (1763;249) Jul 20 22:26:47 SpeedEvil: busy today? Jul 20 22:28:25 Jason1: i think gnome will eventually have all vector graphics (resolution independence) Jul 20 22:28:51 Jason1: until then, just scale-up the PNGs :) Jul 20 22:29:29 jaebird :) Jul 20 22:30:31 Jason1: Lol! Jul 20 22:30:45 CM: :) Jul 20 22:32:03 doh i know what jfreels problem was Jul 20 22:32:10 well... i think i do anyway Jul 20 22:33:22 anywhoo Jul 20 22:33:41 i must be off for food and setting up my ubuntu env on my new laptop Jul 20 22:33:43 yay Jul 20 22:34:05 i'll be back later probably Jul 20 22:43:03 cbrake: Nice blog post :) Jul 20 22:43:15 nite Jul 20 22:43:21 CM: thx Jul 20 22:55:24 Man, it is really weird that people who have no coding ability at all ordered the phone anyway. I think it's a very good sign, but it's still weird. Jul 20 22:55:43 I'm a coder for a living, but I will not order a GTA01 Jul 20 22:55:59 Because you're sensible? :') Jul 20 22:56:02 I'm just not good enough, especially GUI stuff and C/C++ to be of any great help Jul 20 22:56:19 I don't have neither time or patience for that sort of development :) Jul 20 22:56:32 applications, sure.. but that will come later I imagine Jul 20 22:56:32 sandos you could use python Jul 20 22:56:38 I don't blame you - GUI hacking in C/C++ is a royal pain. Jul 20 22:56:50 Blech, my build died on perl. Jul 20 22:57:08 I think Im going to buy the p2 one, but that depends on the state of things Jul 20 22:57:43 The state of things will be really good. Jul 20 22:57:49 I hope so Jul 20 23:08:08 Anybody with experience with MokoMakefile? Jul 20 23:08:38 Everything worked at first, but when I try "make qemu" it barfs on gcc 4.x Jul 20 23:13:53 ozark1: just install gcc-3.4 or gcc-3.3 Jul 20 23:14:10 ozark1: qemu's build system will detect it and automagically use it Jul 20 23:14:37 ozark1: unless you are in gentoo, where I have heard you have to do something ridiculously complicated Jul 20 23:17:01 I'm in ubuntu. Jul 20 23:17:26 Has anyone had their perl build fail this way? | ../makedepend: 1: Syntax error: Unterminated quoted string Jul 20 23:17:36 ozark1: me too, so just install gcc-3.4 Jul 20 23:17:43 ozark1: and then it should work Jul 20 23:18:07 Yay! It's building. Jul 20 23:18:35 Unfortunately, I can't take out qemu at the Starbucks and look cool. :-( Jul 20 23:19:01 haha Jul 20 23:19:05 Depends on who's at the *$$ with you. Jul 20 23:19:24 mellon: isn't that a by-product of the dash-bash thing? Jul 20 23:19:41 Hm, dunno. Jul 20 23:19:53 I'm building with bitbake. Jul 20 23:20:20 Are you using MokoMakefile? Jul 20 23:20:26 Or from scratch? Jul 20 23:20:35 From scratch. Jul 20 23:20:43 But yes, that looks like the problem. Jul 20 23:20:58 mellon: yes, it's dash versus bash... Jul 20 23:21:07 mellon: I created a patch to mokomakefile to fix it Jul 20 23:21:16 Why from scratch? Jul 20 23:21:20 mellon: so, when you use mokomakefile, it applies the patch and works Jul 20 23:21:27 ah, cool. Jul 20 23:21:30 mellon: you have to apply it by hand if you build it yourself Jul 20 23:21:37 Are there any benefits to not using the MokoMakefile? Jul 20 23:21:57 The theory was that I'd get a better sense of what the build's doing, but it's not clear that that's really the case. Jul 20 23:22:15 mellon: they are on rwhitby's svn, directory patches/openembedded- Jul 20 23:22:46 I had the same thought (better sense of what's happening) Jul 20 23:22:59 the build process is just daft with 7 trillion daft requirements Jul 20 23:23:05 but MokoMakefile has been really easy so far. Jul 20 23:23:11 nah, the way to get a better sense would be to not use bitbake ;-) Jul 20 23:23:18 cesarb: thanks. Jul 20 23:23:29 yeah, it would be nice if the build weren't quite so opaque. Jul 20 23:23:33 mokomakefile is just a very thin wrapper around bitbake, and mostly deals with its setup Jul 20 23:23:38 this is both the problem and one of the good things about linux dev Jul 20 23:23:45 Sometimes people over-package things. Jul 20 23:24:14 mellon: feel happy no bozo has created a GUI around mokomakefile... THAT would be over-packaging Jul 20 23:24:14 essentially everyone uses their favourite tools meaning everyone has to then install them all Jul 20 23:24:17 One of the things I like about the NetBSD pkgsrc build process is that it's pretty easy to understand how it works. Jul 20 23:24:22 qemu is apparently running PalmOS 3.1 Jul 20 23:24:33 rather than useing say svn or git or cvs we end up wiht them all Jul 20 23:24:34 It asked me to touch the crosshairs to calibrate the screen... Jul 20 23:25:05 ...oh wait, now I've got it. Jul 20 23:25:08 ScaredyCat: you forgot monotone Jul 20 23:25:20 yeah, that too... Jul 20 23:25:47 ScaredyCat: don't worry, cvs will end up going away... most people will end up migrating to svn Jul 20 23:26:08 most people seem to be migrating to git Jul 20 23:26:11 ScaredyCat: the same way RCS has gone away and cvs took its place Jul 20 23:26:26 i prefer svn Jul 20 23:26:28 RCS is gone?!?! Jul 20 23:26:48 ScaredyCat: git is very cool, unless you use that other operating system... it was designed by someone who never used it, let alone developed for it, and it shows Jul 20 23:27:11 cesarb: Windows Jul 20 23:27:12 ? Jul 20 23:27:19 i thought it was torvalds Jul 20 23:27:22 cesarb: BSD? Jul 20 23:27:29 (for instance, it assumes fork/exec is cheap, assumes file access is fast, and never even gave a thought to CRLF) Jul 20 23:27:44 I think he means the Windows version was designed by someone who never used it. Jul 20 23:27:59 Unless he was talking about BSD. Jul 20 23:28:09 Eh, dealing with Windows brokenness isn't worth it. Jul 20 23:28:14 or os2/warp Jul 20 23:28:16 ;) Jul 20 23:28:19 git from the beginning also relied on inode numbers. Which wouldve made porting to windows very hard, but I (think) they dropped that requirement Jul 20 23:28:27 The whole point of git was to get something working fast. Jul 20 23:28:39 lets just say linus wasnt very about that "problem" ;) Jul 20 23:28:56 I don't see what git offers that svn doesn;t Jul 20 23:29:07 ScaredyCat: distributed development Jul 20 23:29:12 ScaredyCat: and it's fast. really fast. Jul 20 23:29:34 Really /freaking/ fast Jul 20 23:29:38 Also, rebasing patches well. Jul 20 23:29:44 * cesarb loves the way it downloads the whole kernel history Jul 20 23:29:44 ScaredyCat: proven integrity of the whole repo or any one commit Jul 20 23:29:49 svnsync doesn't cut it Jul 20 23:30:14 Is there a Visual Studio plugin for git? Jul 20 23:30:34 ozark1, most people who use git on that OS use it via _cygwin_ Jul 20 23:30:47 ozark1: it's way far from a plugin for that IDE Jul 20 23:31:08 cesarb: sorry... dropped my :-) Jul 20 23:31:49 ScaredyCat: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2199332044603874737 (Linus on git) Jul 20 23:31:51 ozark1: lol Jul 20 23:36:30 So I built qemu and all that with the MokoMakefile. Jul 20 23:36:40 git++ Jul 20 23:36:58 Now I'm on to Hello, World! Jul 20 23:40:21 Well, I added the gcc 3 FAQ to the mokomakefile page... it has been asked way too many times already Jul 20 23:40:22 http://git.or.cz/gitwiki/GitSvnComparsion Jul 20 23:40:41 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[MokoMakefile]] [[How_to_run_OpenMoko_Apps_on_PC]] Jul 20 23:40:52 * cesarb wonders if he will end up doing a long FAQ like the one he added to the top of wikipedia's [[Wikipedia:Village pump (technical)]] Jul 20 23:44:09 don-o: wow, that wiki page is completely screwed up... lots of bizarre junk like "Markup da Wiki" href="/gitwiki/GitSvnComparsion?action=raw">" Jul 21 01:03:59 i use"bitbake mpg123" command to generate a mpg123-*.ipk file, but it don't know how to merge the package into rootfs Jul 21 01:35:32 :( Jul 21 01:35:45 i don't want anyone towork through the weekend or anything, but i do want to get my neo before august Jul 21 01:35:47 o_O Jul 21 01:36:05 what is the status anyway.. Jul 21 01:36:06 i'll bet yours will work ;) so you might be better off than me Jul 21 01:36:21 hozer, they charged like 4 people on wednesday and apparently hit some sort of snag Jul 21 01:36:26 jfreels: did you get one that was busted? Jul 21 01:36:28 because nothing since Jul 21 01:36:39 doh Jul 21 01:36:41 yeah Jul 21 01:37:45 The shipping computer went on fire, and burnt down the warehouse and 996 neos :) Jul 21 01:37:58 something i was wondering about, is it possible to use the 2 3d accelerometers for biometric input suitable for authentication? Jul 21 01:38:00 jfreels: what is wrong with it Jul 21 01:38:21 jfreels: when did you get it? Jul 21 01:38:24 won't boot Jul 21 01:38:27 I got it weeks ago Jul 21 01:38:33 free demo unit Jul 21 01:38:41 hey everyone Jul 21 01:38:41 ah, okay Jul 21 01:38:50 I just built openmoko with mokomakefile Jul 21 01:38:50 jfreels does the screen show anything? Jul 21 01:38:56 but i cant manage to build qemu Jul 21 01:39:05 khai, what do you mean? Jul 21 01:39:12 khaije1: in principle. Jul 21 01:39:13 Skwid_: do you have lynx installed? Jul 21 01:39:22 and gcc3 Jul 21 01:39:25 khaije1: they are very insensitive in some ways. Jul 21 01:39:28 hozer: yes Jul 21 01:39:31 i ran make download-images Jul 21 01:39:32 and then Jul 21 01:39:43 make flash-qemu-official doesnt work Jul 21 01:39:48 khaije1: you can accurately tell where down is - it's probably not suitable for more than casual security. Jul 21 01:39:55 I only see the splash screen, and I can get to the boot menu, that's it Jul 21 01:40:01 working on re-flashing the device Jul 21 01:40:37 openmoko/flash.sh: line 77: /home/moko/build/qemu/arm-softmmu/qemu-system-arm: No such file or directory Jul 21 01:40:44 SpeedEvil: i see, but it could still be used as a wand-based input paradigm Jul 21 01:41:12 khaije1: Sure. Jul 21 01:41:21 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[User:Gilesjuk]] Jul 21 01:41:29 iow 3d gestures to launch macros, this would be so cool! Jul 21 01:42:13 i asked a little while ago, but is there any news about the gta03 or other devices yet? Jul 21 01:42:28 Nope. Jul 21 01:42:41 2 is as far as details have been announced. Jul 21 01:42:49 And even some of those are not firm. Jul 21 01:43:02 anyone É Jul 21 01:43:02 ? Jul 21 01:43:04 i guess i shouldn't expect anything until sales of gta02 have ramped up Jul 21 01:44:41 can anyone give me advice ? Jul 21 01:45:42 Skwid_: did you run make build-qemu Jul 21 01:46:51 SiRF gets scrappy with Global Locate ... http://edisweb.usitc.gov/edismirror/337-596/Violation/269333/310905/40/81c6e8.pdf Jul 21 01:47:08 includes nice high level introduction to GPS Jul 21 01:47:41 gcb77: i dont think so Jul 21 01:48:12 wow, lots of people in #openmoko. I haven't been in here for months. Jul 21 01:49:19 appears you're missing a file skwid ;) Jul 21 01:50:04 Skwid_: make build-qemu downloads and builds the qemu emulator package... it needs gcc3 and lynx Jul 21 01:50:16 gcb77: ok just ran it Jul 21 01:50:35 what do i need to run after make flash-qemu-official Jul 21 01:51:32 Skwid_: make run-qemu Jul 21 01:51:37 ok Jul 21 01:51:39 thx ! Jul 21 01:51:46 the wiki didnt mention all this Jul 21 01:51:55 w00t! go moko! Jul 21 01:52:19 sorry, could not resist ;) Jul 21 01:52:46 Skwid_: it does.. need to read the paragraphs not only headlines ;) Jul 21 01:54:22 Skwid_: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/MokoMakefile#QEMU Jul 21 01:55:20 gcb77 + mil_: it doesnt say anything about build-qemu ! Jul 21 01:56:03 Skwid_: which page are you looking at? Jul 21 01:56:15 mokomakefile Jul 21 01:56:46 awesommmee it boots:) Jul 21 01:56:55 it does.. at least for me.. Jul 21 01:57:33 do i have to run qemu as root ? Jul 21 01:57:39 Skwid_: nice! try to ssh in.. Jul 21 01:57:55 nope Jul 21 01:58:08 because i had to compile everything as root Jul 21 01:58:12 in /home/moko Jul 21 01:59:28 * mil_ laughs. no need for that Jul 21 01:59:41 Hallelujah! Jul 21 01:59:48 well i couldnt write to /home/moko otherwise :( Jul 21 01:59:56 i guess i should've chowned Jul 21 02:00:01 linux gamer: root or die ;) Jul 21 02:00:22 so how do I choose 'boot' in the boot screen ? enter goes to the next option Jul 21 02:00:51 o Jul 21 02:00:53 space :) Jul 21 02:01:05 space? you can config that Jul 21 02:01:23 through qemu? Jul 21 02:02:14 yeah Jul 21 02:03:06 So, just four charges so far? Jul 21 02:03:26 Skwid_: you know, it prints to the console after you build the image, "space does this, enter does that..." Jul 21 02:04:30 sorry i didnt see :( Jul 21 02:05:51 nice :D Jul 21 02:08:39 counter Jul 21 02:08:39 (last update 2007-07-19 00:49) http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter : Order https://direct.openmoko.com/ ; Shipping prob. 65% in 04:55:37 (0.205±0.2 days) (1764;249) Jul 21 02:08:47 * Skwid_ is having fun Jul 21 02:13:15 so 4 people charged now? Jul 21 02:14:40 aloril: that was my question 10 minutes before Jul 21 02:14:49 I guess it's true.... Jul 21 02:15:06 or everybody else already has the phone and is too busy calling everybody with it Jul 21 02:15:30 hehe, just saw that mention, well at least 2 should have been charged Jul 21 02:20:16 * cesarb wonders if with all that tendency to delay all the time we will still have GTA02 this year *knocks on wood and asks everyone on the channel to do the same* Jul 21 02:20:33 I got the rootfs flashed Jul 21 02:20:35 didn't help Jul 21 02:20:35 openmoko uses GCC, right? Jul 21 02:21:28 o yes Jul 21 02:21:49 * sagaci3 knocks on wood Jul 21 02:22:29 ok, good Jul 21 02:24:14 jfreels: if it will not boot, what is missing wouldn't be the root fs, what's missing would be the _kernel_ partition, right? or, another possibility, the commands on the environment partition are wrong Jul 21 02:24:55 yeah, that's what I figured, but since I don't have the debug board, i'm doing it through screen Jul 21 02:24:58 (before anyone asks "how many partitions are there?", IIRC uboot, uboot env, kernel, root, splash, and the bad blocks table at the end) Jul 21 02:25:07 and I only had that one file on my SD card Jul 21 02:25:50 jfreels: you can get to uboot via the serial, right? you could try to run the commands to ask it to boot by hand, instead of using the menu... Jul 21 02:26:28 yeah, that doesn't work either Jul 21 02:26:43 trust me, I have tried almost everything....that's why i'm flashing Jul 21 02:27:40 fwiw, fic sent me a p1 with mismatched kernel/rootfs Jul 21 02:27:48 had to flash it before any modules would load Jul 21 02:28:09 so can qemu have access to the internet ? i guess not since gta-01 has no wifi Jul 21 02:28:22 I wonder which bizarre misbehaviour will the first shipped phones (SH1) have... missing rootfs? missing kernel? something even more random? Jul 21 02:28:38 We will only know after the SH1 wiki page is updated... Jul 21 02:28:43 skwid - why not use gprs or bluetooth? Jul 21 02:28:58 cesarb: broken images on the home screen, won't place calls most likely Jul 21 02:28:58 Skwid_: you can do some crazy USB dance to make qemu use the network IIRC Jul 21 02:29:13 cesarb: ok, i wont :) Jul 21 02:29:13 Skwid_: it's documented somewhere in the wiki IIRC Jul 21 02:29:41 bye Jul 21 02:29:56 the home screen icons have been broken for a few weeks now Jul 21 02:32:01 sorry i clicked the wrong button :) Jul 21 02:32:18 so its a pain to have internet on qemu i guess Jul 21 02:33:43 when is the dev edition scheduled to ship with a wireless card? Jul 21 02:33:43 Currently sold Neo1973 GTA01B_v04 (P1) doesn't have WiFi, GTA02 (P2) which is scheduled for October will have WiFi with free (libre) drivers (Atheros AR6K): http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ#Q:_What_is_the_rationale_behind_the_exclusion_of_WiFi.3F Jul 21 02:33:48 seems the qemu emulator needs '-net,qprs' ;) Jul 21 02:34:05 err, -net,gprs Jul 21 02:40:48 hum Jul 21 02:40:57 does anybody have the rss reader working in qemu ? Jul 21 02:50:20 does anybody have the rss reader or contacts working in qemu ? Jul 21 02:53:55 Skwid_: does anything beyond the dialer work at all, in qemu or not? Jul 21 02:54:50 cesarb: i dont know, that's why im asking :) Jul 21 02:56:07 Skwid_: heck, even _terminal_ misbehaves Jul 21 02:56:25 ok :) Jul 21 02:56:40 Skwid_: and the keyboard thingy.... well, let's say it never worked for me, until I asked here where it was, at which point it proceeded to always show up, as if to mock me Jul 21 02:56:56 :) **** ENDING LOGGING AT Sat Jul 21 02:59:58 2007