**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Tue Jul 31 02:59:56 2007 Jul 31 03:00:05 the gta01 Jul 31 03:00:08 and the 02 Jul 31 03:00:20 it should run on anything that Openmoko runs on Jul 31 03:00:45 koen's apparently a lead guy with it, so you know the software is gonna be pretty killer Jul 31 03:02:22 Ya know what OE desperately needs... a quickstart guide... because that 135pg pdf user manual is damn daunting Jul 31 03:09:13 yeah, that would be nice :/ Jul 31 03:25:29 yeah - i need to get over to my neo to try the image :) Jul 31 03:30:27 i wish that there were more people who bought a neo and didnt realize it was a dev preview Jul 31 03:32:15 BryceLeo: Where is the 135pg pdf user manual? Jul 31 03:36:01 rtm_: heh natrually hidden away on the angstrom page Jul 31 03:36:02 http://www.angstrom-distribution.org/ Jul 31 03:37:06 http://www.openembedded.org/%7Ekoen/usermanual.pdf Jul 31 03:37:08 direct link Jul 31 03:40:39 i've got work in the morning Jul 31 03:40:40 night all Jul 31 03:40:45 it's been fun as usual Jul 31 03:46:15 well, fun and quiet :/ Jul 31 03:46:27 amusing - the cheap bluetooth dongle actually supports DFU Jul 31 04:07:27 got it loaded up Jul 31 04:07:30 nite bryce Jul 31 04:21:42 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[User:Krid]] [[OpenMoko_Local_Groups:_San_Francisco]] [[Application_Development_Crash_Course]] [[GTA01_gsm_modem]] [[Main_Page/es]] [[MokoMakefile]] Jul 31 04:24:08 ok, so i tried about 10 att sim cards Jul 31 04:24:10 and none worked Jul 31 04:24:24 first tmobile sim i tried worked right away Jul 31 04:25:55 oy Jul 31 04:26:26 * mwester wonders where someone gets 10 at&t sim cards... Jul 31 04:27:20 * mwester is also happy that he has a t-mobile sim to use, should his Neo ever get shipped... Jul 31 04:27:31 ditto Jul 31 04:27:36 (the t-mo sim) Jul 31 04:29:50 mwester, i already said earlier i know people Jul 31 04:29:50 lol Jul 31 04:29:54 also! Jul 31 04:29:59 this is bad news for a lot of people Jul 31 04:30:07 you can not reactivate 2g sims on the att network Jul 31 04:30:18 so don't buy att 2g sims on ebay... you will not get them activate Jul 31 04:31:07 activated* Jul 31 04:31:44 is that going to be the same in oct? likely to cause trouble for people? And why are at & t always different Jul 31 04:31:55 wiretapping-- Jul 31 04:32:44 This is bad news in a lot of ways. For months and months, the word was "a sim is a sim" -- seems that it's not quite so "sim"ple. (sorry, bad pun) Jul 31 04:33:53 i got unofficial confirmation that it is SIM Sentry Jul 31 04:34:10 aka the guy told me very softly that att sims need to be "unlocked" Jul 31 04:35:01 I finally got an AT&T 3G SIM to work today, but it only works about once every 5 neo reboots. Jul 31 04:36:31 rtm_, what did you have to do? Jul 31 04:36:42 rtm_, i really tried a lot of them... even so called "unlocked" ones Jul 31 04:37:08 i went to 5 stores today; one which i knew people at Jul 31 04:37:52 I did not do anything special - I just rebooted several times in a row, and finally connected up with the system, although with weak and intermittant bars - But I could place calls. Jul 31 04:38:06 From google: "The SIM Sentry application is a basic, easy to deploy, copy protection application dedicated to ensuring operator profitability..." Jul 31 04:38:16 The last 5 words say it all... Jul 31 04:43:41 moin Jul 31 04:51:18 ouch Jul 31 04:51:56 SIM Sentry provides enhanced execution time security to handset based applications by allowing a secure key repository and the capability for handset application developers to code portions of the application in the SIM. This creates an improved anti-hack protection scenario for gaming software companies, for example, where each game could make different calls to SIM based applets for successful execution, thereby frustrating the hacker, protec Jul 31 04:52:19 o the user Jul 31 04:52:36 and somehow they've wrapped more around it than everyone else aparently Jul 31 04:53:08 Or buggy implementation. Jul 31 04:53:12 Anyway. Jul 31 04:53:13 yeah Jul 31 04:53:19 Looks like it's TIs issue. Jul 31 04:53:32 *nod* too bad we can't DFU the phone firmware :( Jul 31 04:54:00 "dedicated to ensuring operator profitability..." Jul 31 04:54:04 can we get that topic'd? :) Jul 31 05:02:51 Hmm. /me notices 'fully static design' in the SC*'s datasheet. Jul 31 05:03:12 I wonder how much lower than 12Mhz it can go with an external clock source. Jul 31 05:03:49 Probably not meaningful anyway. Jul 31 05:31:08 any word on the second batch ? Jul 31 05:33:12 (gug) Jul 31 05:39:26 !counter Jul 31 05:39:29 counter Jul 31 05:39:29 (last update 2007-07-27 06:54) http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter : Order https://direct.openmoko.com/ ; Delivered prob. 75% in a day 15:10:12 (1.632±1.6 days) (1786;251) Jul 31 05:42:44 so I assume people have received theirs... Jul 31 05:47:04 some have Jul 31 05:48:04 I suppose I should ask what people think when there are more people around, and it's not almost 2 AM in US CDT Jul 31 05:48:54 check the mailing lsit Jul 31 05:49:35 actually, check both the community and the device-owner lists Jul 31 05:52:07 xkr47: mm, good point, thanks Jul 31 05:56:16 summatusmentis: quite a lot of people actually. Jul 31 05:56:29 Probably 100 or so at least. Jul 31 06:11:41 yeah, nice phone very buggy heh Jul 31 06:16:16 so long as it's not bugged ;) Jul 31 06:18:44 hehe, there's a perl module for tracking UPS packages :) Business::UPS Jul 31 06:20:18 * mokobot hands ScaredyCat Jason1's neo Jul 31 06:20:26 that's evil Jul 31 06:20:45 * xkr47 slaps mokobot around with a small troutbot Jul 31 06:22:02 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[GTA01_gsm_modem]] [[Neo1973_Power_Management]] Jul 31 06:22:33 Hi folks, I'm trying to set up "connection to the internet via usb". Jul 31 06:22:50 pinging to an ip works but to a domain name does not. does anybody have any idea? Jul 31 06:23:18 no nameserver configured? Jul 31 06:24:00 just done the steps given in the wiki. Jul 31 06:24:31 what does /etc/resolv.conf say? Jul 31 06:24:31 set up a local network 172.16.0.0 Jul 31 06:24:40 on the host or neo? Jul 31 06:24:53 both Jul 31 06:24:58 no, neo Jul 31 06:25:01 sorry :) Jul 31 06:25:12 there is no /etc/resolv.conf in neo. Jul 31 06:25:22 copy the one from the host to the neo. Jul 31 06:25:38 ok, Jul 31 06:25:52 should work now, if it worked with ip. Jul 31 06:26:05 openmoko: 03laforge * r2576 10/trunk/src/target/gsm/src/gsmd/gsmd.c: Add higher baudrates: 230k, 460k, 921k (Alex Osborne) Jul 31 06:26:10 great, it works.. Jul 31 06:26:12 thanks. Jul 31 06:26:16 no problem. Jul 31 06:26:18 but there is a problem.. Jul 31 06:26:25 what is that? Jul 31 06:26:45 this works only when I'm home. i.e. when i go to work, it changes.. Jul 31 06:27:16 well... the same procedure should work at work... Jul 31 06:27:26 :) Jul 31 06:27:28 dhcp can give a DNS server Jul 31 06:27:33 yes Jul 31 06:28:00 That's problably a better solution. Jul 31 06:28:19 so, should i set up a dhcp server on the host? Jul 31 06:28:26 for neo to connect? Jul 31 06:28:29 there are lightweight dns-servers readily avaiable also. Jul 31 06:28:34 add one of these beauties to your OM -> http://www.ukprwire.com/Detailed/Technology/First-ever_1.4mm_single-chip_camera_is_the_worlds_smallest_8596.shtml Jul 31 06:29:01 emre: You need to setup dhcp and maybe a dns-relay (easier than it sounds) Jul 31 06:29:50 In ubuntu should have the dhcpd and dns-relay (i think) packages in the repos. Jul 31 06:30:04 ok. i'll give it a try after the gsm ;) thanks.. Jul 31 06:30:09 But I have to go now (meeting), I'll be back in a couple of hours. Jul 31 06:30:52 here is a pic of it so you get an idea of the size http://gizmodo.com/assets/resources/2007/07/OV6920_camerachip.jpg Jul 31 06:31:48 damn that's small Jul 31 06:50:57 freskog, try opendns.com Jul 31 06:56:19 why not just use a public dns like 194.150.168.168 or 195.85.254.254? Jul 31 06:57:47 openmoko: 03laforge * r2577 10/trunk/src/target/gsm/src/gsmd/usock.c: Use ATH instead of ATH0 for QC compatibility (Philipp Zabel) Jul 31 07:03:38 openmoko: 03laforge * r2578 10/trunk/src/target/gsm/src/gsmd/ (atcmd.c gsmd.c): Jul 31 07:03:38 openmoko: the latest gsmd sends the alive detector's ATE0 to the GSM modem, even Jul 31 07:03:38 openmoko: if interpreter_ready == 0. The attached patch sees to it that if Jul 31 07:03:38 openmoko: interpreter_ready is zero, gsmd_alive_start is only called once the Jul 31 07:03:38 openmoko: "AT-Command Interpreter ready" message was seen. (Philipp Zabel) Jul 31 07:07:34 openmoko: 03laforge * r2579 10/trunk/src/target/gsm/src/gsmd/gsmd.c: don't power off the phone at gsmd startup. Jul 31 07:19:21 Does anyone know why can't I mount -o loop the root fs? Jul 31 07:20:38 * xzcvczx kicks the living f****** s*** out of UPS Jul 31 07:24:21 mornin' Jul 31 07:24:30 morning Jul 31 07:25:11 openmoko: 03laforge * r2580 10/trunk/src/target/gsm/src/gsmd/ (gsmd.c vendor_qc.c): Jul 31 07:25:11 openmoko: in some cases the Qualcomm chip in the HTC Universal switches to V0 mode Jul 31 07:25:11 openmoko: behind our backs. We need support for "0" instead of "OK" in the Jul 31 07:25:11 openmoko: synchronous initial command and in the alive check. Note that this Jul 31 07:25:11 openmoko: nearly duplicates the "OK" check in atcmd.c. (Philip Zabel) Jul 31 07:25:11 morning also Jul 31 07:25:36 lol @ qualcomm Jul 31 07:26:03 nice bug to get closed Jul 31 07:31:02 is anyone having trouble charging their phones with the USB cable? Jul 31 07:31:17 i think my battery died and it won't charge, so now my phone's bricked? Jul 31 07:34:19 no Jul 31 07:34:24 unplug phone Jul 31 07:34:27 take out battery Jul 31 07:34:34 put battery in, connect usb cable Jul 31 07:34:36 openmoko: 03laforge * r2581 10/trunk/src/target/gsm/ (include/gsmd/gsmd.h src/gsmd/atcmd.c): (log message trimmed) Jul 31 07:34:36 openmoko: Add '2nd try' of the multiline parser: Jul 31 07:34:36 openmoko: Every extended response causes a flush of the previous mlbuf and starts Jul 31 07:34:36 openmoko: collecting new response lines. Also, final_cb is now really only reached for Jul 31 07:34:36 openmoko: final responses and the code for case 'A' won't overwrite the command buffer Jul 31 07:34:40 openmoko: with the response anymore. I throw in '\n' as a separator for multi-line Jul 31 07:34:42 openmoko: responses, and the callback is called for each response this way. Jul 31 07:35:03 cable connect to usb powered port (powered hub or directly to computer) Jul 31 07:35:20 ok Jul 31 07:36:41 still nothing? Jul 31 07:37:10 dsilva: neo does not have any led to show that it charge Jul 31 07:37:21 dsilva: leave it for few hours Jul 31 07:37:28 hrw: ah ok Jul 31 07:37:37 hrw: thanks, I'll try that :) Jul 31 07:38:13 hrw: does linux give any indication that something's happening/charging? Jul 31 07:39:58 dsilva: after few hours you should be able to power phone Jul 31 07:40:19 I don't think there is any indication currently Jul 31 07:40:27 ah ok, thanks Jul 31 07:40:47 by the way, which openmoko-devel-image and uImage versions should we be using? Jul 31 07:41:25 I tried openmoko-devel-image-fic-gta01-20070728081358 and uImage-2.6.21.6-moko10-r1_0_0_2388_0 earlier today, and the system was pretty much unusable Jul 31 07:42:13 latest one Jul 31 07:42:48 * mokobot hands ScaredyCat Jason1's neo Jul 31 07:43:08 dsilva: current images are a bit broken as Mickeyl has to finish few merges Jul 31 07:43:48 hrw: oh ok, so the ones in the "latest" directory are stable? Jul 31 07:43:55 dsilva: the upper right hand corner of the neo has a battery monitor icon. Arrow pointed inwards means it's charging. Jul 31 07:44:16 dsilva: have you hooked up your neo to a linux box? Jul 31 07:44:18 mave_pan: thanks, though I'm charging it when it's off :) Jul 31 07:44:26 mave_pan: yep Jul 31 07:45:07 dsilva: there is no such thing as 'stable' builds yet Jul 31 07:45:07 it does charge whn off then Jul 31 07:46:03 dsilva: read http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Getting_Started_with_your_Neo1973#While_in_Linux Jul 31 07:48:07 mave_pan: strange, I don't see that in my /var/log/messages Jul 31 07:48:15 mave_pan: maybe because the phone's off? Jul 31 07:48:32 That could be Jul 31 07:48:50 Try switching it on. Jul 31 07:49:06 when it was on earlier, I did get something similar: usb 3-1: new full speed USB device using uhci_hcd and address 2 Jul 31 07:49:25 can't switch it on, battery drained... I guess I'll wait a while like hrw suggested Jul 31 07:49:47 Good luck then. Have to go now .. Jul 31 07:49:51 thanks Jul 31 07:49:54 np Jul 31 07:52:41 * hrw upgrades one neo to latest own build.. Jul 31 07:53:02 hi every1 Jul 31 07:53:16 hi! UPS told me i'll receive my neo1973 today. However, they wanted around €100 for customs. Anyone with similar experience? I'm in Sweden, fwiw. Jul 31 07:53:17 jas4711: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (and also SH1_FAQ, Neo1973, Developer_preview and Neo1973_Hardware#GTA01Bv4 pages) (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.) Jul 31 07:53:58 jas4711: you should check on what grounds they are taxing you Jul 31 07:54:34 jas4711: value*1.25 atleast Jul 31 07:54:35 * aloril suspects its tax + handling Jul 31 07:55:01 that's a whole lot for handling then Jul 31 07:55:12 in finland you'd have to pay the 22% VAT Jul 31 07:55:25 he didn't say how many he ordered though Jul 31 07:55:26 i suspect it is custom's (5-10%?) and vat (25%) Jul 31 07:55:36 i ordered one neo advanced. Jul 31 07:55:44 25% vat ? woah Jul 31 07:55:58 i'd get ~60 euros for the tax in finland Jul 31 07:56:18 how much did the advanced cost? Jul 31 07:56:23 USD 450 Jul 31 07:56:38 well.. Jul 31 07:56:47 jas4711: 87.90 EUR for me Jul 31 07:57:15 you should pay ~85 EUR Jul 31 07:58:26 i paid usd540 including shipping to openmoko.com. UPS phone and I don't recall the exact sum they wanted (in cash..) but it was something like 1100-1200 SEK, which is about 115-130 EUR Jul 31 07:59:21 is there a wiki page about shipping experience? maybe we can start one, to make it easy to compare taxes/customs fees. and to make sure they are consistent... Jul 31 07:59:27 there is one Jul 31 07:59:38 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Shipping_Notes Jul 31 07:59:50 jas4711: just out of curiosity, what rt number did you have? we orderd the first day (albeit very late) and they haven't made a peep for the last two weeks Jul 31 07:59:55 kind of disheartening Jul 31 08:00:25 my rt is #1992 Jul 31 08:00:30 ok Jul 31 08:00:32 i ordered before it hit slashdot... Jul 31 08:00:45 ScaredyCat: thanks. I'll add my experiences to that page. Jul 31 08:00:58 I have no idea when it hit slashdot, think it did half way me trying to get my collegues to decide :/ Jul 31 08:01:01 :) Jul 31 08:01:14 they e-mailed me on July 22 about charging my VISA though. Jul 31 08:01:16 s/way/way through/ Jul 31 08:01:30 then on July 27th about shipping it Jul 31 08:01:49 i ordered on July 9 Jul 31 08:02:35 same here, but late in the evening Jul 31 08:03:19 iirc :) Jul 31 08:03:42 but we were definetly after the /. onslaught Jul 31 08:04:19 * xzcvczx 's phone is still sitting in ontario waiting to get on a plane i believe Jul 31 08:06:08 mine's in philadelphia, for nearly 24h now... Jul 31 08:08:33 kero: well i believe mine went all the way to ontario when it will just have to go back to LAX to get on international flight to here Jul 31 08:09:49 mine has a location "EIndhoven, NL" for 'brokerage' halfway the UPS tracking. That was on top at some point, making me believe it was within 10km of its destiny. Jul 31 08:10:02 either that or it will go to san fran Jul 31 08:10:06 but it never left Oakland at that point :( Jul 31 08:11:25 kero: yeah ups's shipping sucks.... my phone was sitting in one place for like 2 or 3 days i believe in the depot in sunnyvale Jul 31 08:11:50 at least fedex's tracking is accurate and tells you exactly where and when it is Jul 31 08:12:05 well it did last time i used it anyway Jul 31 08:22:15 xzcvczx: ups is showing the info they have. They could present it in a way that is clearer to us. Jul 31 08:22:22 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Neo1973_GTA01_Power_Management]] [[Getting_Started_with_your_Neo1973]] [[Neo1973_Power_Management]] [[MacOS_X]] Jul 31 08:22:24 some ppl some to have an ETA, I don't Jul 31 08:23:43 s/ some/ seem/ Jul 31 08:23:43 Kero meant: some ppl seem to have an ETA, I don't Jul 31 08:24:06 apt: botsnack Jul 31 08:24:06 thanks, Kero Jul 31 08:26:10 Mine is also stuck in Philadelphia Jul 31 08:36:00 we should make #future_P1_owners Jul 31 08:41:57 haha Jul 31 08:42:05 apt rules Jul 31 08:42:07 * apt makes the rules. now stfu and code mode addons. Jul 31 08:42:18 testing regex Jul 31 08:42:25 s/testing/this is cool/ Jul 31 08:42:25 Placid meant: this is cool regex Jul 31 08:42:29 :D Jul 31 08:42:49 s/cool/pretty awesome/ Jul 31 08:43:42 s/funny/not funny.. Jul 31 08:43:47 !googlefight cdbot2 vs apt Jul 31 08:43:48 By results on Google: apt beats cdbot2 by 53,400,000 to 1,280! Jul 31 08:43:49 testing regex Jul 31 08:44:00 s/testing/pretty awesome/ Jul 31 08:44:00 Rince meant: pretty awesome regex Jul 31 08:44:02 ah, better Jul 31 08:44:14 s/Roy// Jul 31 08:44:44 null Jul 31 08:44:45 :D Jul 31 08:44:46 Grumble.. Jul 31 08:47:25 hmmm. the keywords $Rev$ $Date$ $Author$ arent filled by svn. Jul 31 08:49:25 or lets say they are ignored by svn Jul 31 08:50:47 hi Jul 31 08:51:05 dando, you have to switch that behavior on Jul 31 08:51:34 is it the client that does the job? Jul 31 08:51:55 mdt: good to know Jul 31 08:54:20 Are there things like artwork that need to be done this project? (my programming in C probably isn't good enough) Jul 31 08:54:42 dando, you need to set property svn:keywords="..." Jul 31 08:55:14 dando, or have that automatically set in ~/.subversion/config Jul 31 08:55:38 mdt: thx Jul 31 08:55:39 Roy: everything is needed:) If you have some ideas about alternative icon themes, or UI designs, feel free to update wiki:) Jul 31 08:56:26 roy: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Artwork Jul 31 08:56:51 Ah nice, didn't find that page yet Jul 31 08:58:48 It can be spotted through "orphaned pages" and "recent changes" only. Can anyone link it from appropriate place (resources?) Jul 31 08:58:48 mdt: @ cvs the serverside is doing this !? Isn't it ? Jul 31 08:59:17 Dmitry > I'll try to find some entrypoints Jul 31 09:00:09 roy i guess this isn't linked to the main wiki ! Jul 31 09:01:13 holy crap, eurotunnel prices just trippled Jul 31 09:01:40 dando, i'm not shure. i would say the client, but why do you want to know? Jul 31 09:02:16 FuzzyCat: you mean you passed the x weeks in advance when you get super discounts? Jul 31 09:02:36 ppftt that doesn't exist... Jul 31 09:02:52 mdt: just because i use cvs a lot and i am not used to svn. Jul 31 09:03:19 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Look_%26_Feel Jul 31 09:03:25 I looked at their flixi stuff and it's a ripoff too... you buy 10 trips in advance, then you might have to pay and extra 20-30 quid when you get there... wtf is the point of that Jul 31 09:03:29 That was more what I was looking for :) Jul 31 09:03:34 flexi Jul 31 09:04:48 dando, there is a nice doc for people coming from cvs... did you read that? Jul 31 09:05:13 no not yet Jul 31 09:05:31 mdt: do u have a link? :) Jul 31 09:05:53 dando, http://svn.collab.net/repos/svn/trunk/doc/user/cvs-crossover-guide.html Jul 31 09:06:26 mdt: thank you! Jul 31 09:14:27 wow nice artwork :) Jul 31 09:15:57 hi all Jul 31 09:28:33 mornin' Jul 31 09:28:54 Good afternoon :) Jul 31 09:34:35 finally my tracking has changed, its been saying 'EXCEPTION.. ''PKG DELAY ADDL SECURITY CHECK BY GOVT OR OTHER AGENCY BEYOND UPS CONTROL' for 3 days Jul 31 09:34:46 now its got "In Transit" :) Jul 31 09:34:57 Psi_: woha, where do you live? ;) Jul 31 09:35:01 NZ Jul 31 09:35:15 hmm, nothing radical there I'd say Jul 31 09:35:28 it probably just got a random check Jul 31 09:35:30 A lot of people get these customs messages when ordering Jul 31 09:36:27 ill be interested to see when i get it if it has been opened or not Jul 31 09:36:48 if you're lucky they'll have flased it for you ;) Jul 31 09:36:53 hehe Jul 31 09:36:56 it'll be interesting to see if it's still in one piece... Jul 31 09:37:02 ^^ Jul 31 09:37:22 it may just have been xrayed Jul 31 09:37:54 Or gone through a MRI scanner (bye bye memory..) ;-) Jul 31 09:37:58 heh Jul 31 09:38:18 Nah they don't do that.. Jul 31 09:39:54 woohoo! Jul 31 09:40:04 the chicken is in the pot! Jul 31 09:40:14 ...? Jul 31 09:40:57 * Kero dislikes the "EXCEPTION", which basically seems to mean "not a regular UPS action" Jul 31 09:41:07 but to me screams "something wrong" .... Jul 31 09:42:05 Then you are probably a programmer, when they see "EXCEPTION" it probably means you messed up :P Jul 31 09:42:26 yup :) Jul 31 09:44:39 UNCAUGHT EXCEPTION: DELIVERY TERMINATED ;-) Jul 31 09:46:26 Dmitry_Platonov: PACKAGE TERMINATED would be worse Jul 31 09:46:43 UNEXPECTED EXCEPTION: DELIVERY FORWARDED TO ROY Jul 31 09:47:12 you're laughing. I had something like that happen to me once. Jul 31 09:47:38 alphaone: do go on Jul 31 09:47:52 WTF Jul 31 09:47:55 NOTE: package openmoko-rssreader-0.0.1+svn20070719-r1: task do_configure: started Jul 31 09:47:55 ERROR: function do_configure failed Jul 31 09:48:02 still broken! Jul 31 09:48:13 (with last svn) Jul 31 09:48:26 I was tracking a dhl packet and it was already listed as being on the delivery run to my appartment, but it did not arrive that day. Jul 31 09:48:42 isn't there a DISTRO_EXCLUDE or sth like that? Jul 31 09:49:12 The next morning the dhl tracking form said "Delivery had to be aborted due to some unexpected event." Jul 31 09:49:28 squalyl: moin, don't build the latest version of rssreader? Jul 31 09:49:29 * Roy is working on the dutch package tracing system for DHL atm.. Jul 31 09:49:34 stefan_schmidt: why did this regress? Jul 31 09:49:37 So I'm still wondering what that "unexpected event" might have been... Jul 31 09:49:50 alphaone: probably had an accident if your courier drivers are anything like ours Jul 31 09:49:55 Thats my dayjob :-D Jul 31 09:50:00 they dropped it and broke it and are trying to find a replacement phone :D Jul 31 09:50:26 xzcvczx: Yeah, I figured either that or a flat tire. Jul 31 09:50:50 Roy: just go more by fedex's than ups tracking technique Jul 31 09:51:10 Maybe somebody was sitting/walking in front of your house and told the courier that he/she was you :o Jul 31 09:51:14 alphaone: or the idiot got lost Jul 31 09:52:11 xzcvczx: The whole system is already designed, we only get to build it :-( but I'm leaving the project next week, I'm starting to hate it Jul 31 09:52:13 zecke: I'm building rssreader "20070719". Which one is the good one? The latest? Jul 31 09:52:17 zecke:openmoko-rssreader-0.0.1+svn20070719 Jul 31 09:52:28 Doesn't seem like the last.. Jul 31 09:52:47 squalyl: What is the error message? Jul 31 09:52:48 does the last revision build? Jul 31 09:53:06 configure: error: Package requirements (WebKitGdk) were not met: Jul 31 09:53:11 alphaone: it failed on the autobuilder tonight, so something changed in the configuration Jul 31 09:53:21 Roy: well the tracking system has to be redone here.... all it says is picked up and delivered or delivery failed Jul 31 09:53:23 hmm Jul 31 09:53:27 !ombug 671 Jul 31 09:53:28 no update is necessary on openembedded? Jul 31 09:53:28 * * Bug 671, Status: NEW, Created: Unknown Jul 31 09:53:29 when will the buildhost build 2007.2? Jul 31 09:53:30 * * : openmoko-rssreader-0.0.1+svn20070722-r1-do_configure Jul 31 09:53:31 * * http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=671 Jul 31 09:54:18 Vegar: Not before OM 2007.2 is working. Jul 31 09:54:22 ok Jul 31 09:54:36 is there a way to avoid building this package? Jul 31 09:54:44 http://ewi546.ewi.utwente.nl/tinderbox/showbuilds.pl?tree=OpenMoko so someone broke it yesterday at 18h central european time Jul 31 09:54:49 xzcvczx: We are going to have about 45 possible states for the packages, should be enough Jul 31 09:54:55 * jas4711 just got a call from UPS, they'll be here in a few minutes Jul 31 09:55:09 !ombug 634 Jul 31 09:55:10 * * Bug 634, Status: RESOLVED (INVALID), Created: Unknown Jul 31 09:55:11 * * inksmithy(AT)gmail.com: Cannot target United Kingdom with Country Drop Down Jul 31 09:55:12 * * http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=634 Jul 31 09:55:18 jas4711: they call you :O Jul 31 09:55:54 * xzcvczx is going to be a hermit on thursday.... not leave the house at all Jul 31 09:56:36 xzcvczx: actually, they called yesterday but i wasn't home then. re-scheduled until today. ("before 12am", it is now 11.56am..) Jul 31 09:56:45 I have broken transparent proxy, and http://svn.openmoko.org/ does not works for me (I believe, it's the reason). Any suggestions? Jul 31 09:57:12 brb, have to connect to DHL's VPN Jul 31 09:58:02 mjr: Ah, you're Mikko Rauhala? Jul 31 09:58:13 * daxxar just read the email adress and not just the name. Jul 31 09:58:28 mjr: Thanks for your feedback on the BT-keyboard, :-) Jul 31 09:59:13 * daxxar hopes into the shower Jul 31 10:02:53 &can i has an openmoko? Jul 31 10:02:53 You can has an openmoko - it are delivrd Jul 31 10:02:58 :D Jul 31 10:09:15 Dmitry_Platonov replace every occurence of http with https Jul 31 10:09:32 Dmitry_Platonov that should help getting through your broken proxy Jul 31 10:09:59 roh: hey, do you know if viewcvs is installed on svn.om.org? Jul 31 10:11:35 so isn't there an immediade-dirty-hack workaround to get devel image build? Jul 31 10:11:55 squalyl: set a SRCDATE for openmoko-rssreader before it required webkit? Jul 31 10:12:36 20070719 requires it? ok. Jul 31 10:13:16 trying 20070701 Jul 31 10:17:51 roh, thanks. Seems to work. Jul 31 10:22:42 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[P1_Owners]] [[SH1_FAQ]] [[Main_Page]] [[FAQ]] [[Neo1973_GTA01_Power_Management]] [[Ringtones]] [[Neo1973_Aux_Button]] Jul 31 10:27:46 zecke the SRCDATE is already set fitting. updating svn, clearing the package should work Jul 31 10:29:09 roh: it regressed yesterday afternoon Jul 31 10:29:13 is the UPS tracking supposed to show an ETA somewhere? Jul 31 10:29:22 ~seen cwiis Jul 31 10:29:23 zecke *sigh* .. why that? Jul 31 10:29:24 ~seen cwiiis Jul 31 10:29:25 i haven't seen 'cwiis', zecke Jul 31 10:29:26 cwiiis was last seen on IRC in channel #oe, 28d 20h 40m 26s ago, saying: 'zecke_: You're writing an HTML rendering engine?'. Jul 31 10:29:51 roh: no idea, this is why i asked for viewcvs (I'm too lazy to fire up svn log) Jul 31 10:31:52 hmm svn log looks fine... (random bitbake breakage?) :} Jul 31 10:32:08 zecke subscribe to commitlog@ ;) i always use that to keep track Jul 31 10:32:56 openmoko: 03chris * r2582 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007.2/applications/openmoko-today2/ (ChangeLog src/today-task-manager.c): Jul 31 10:32:56 openmoko: Don't list Openmoko-Today in the tasks list, and work with any Jul 31 10:32:56 openmoko: NETWM-compliant window manager Jul 31 10:38:34 roh, https://svn.nslu2-linux.org not working. neither are svn:// and http:// :-/ Jul 31 10:41:56 test msg Jul 31 10:42:23 Dmitry_Platonov i dunno if he provides ssl Jul 31 10:43:01 hmm, still no payment/shipment note means no Neo before the camp... Jul 31 10:43:05 * hhf423 cries Jul 31 10:43:34 hhf423 when did u book.. Jul 31 10:44:10 my first order did not get through, my second got RT 28xxsometing Jul 31 10:53:32 I'm trying to compile openmoko to play around with it and qemu, but the makefile hangs up at configuring openmoko-rssreader-0.0.1+svn20070722-r1 Jul 31 10:55:15 openmoko: 03njp * r2583 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007.2/applications/openmoko-dialer2/ (ChangeLog src/dialer-main.c src/moko-digit-button.c): Jul 31 10:55:15 openmoko: 2007-07-31 Neil J. Patel Jul 31 10:55:15 openmoko: * src/dialer-main.c: (main): Jul 31 10:55:15 openmoko: * src/moko-digit-button.c: (moko_digit_button_new_with_labels): Jul 31 10:55:15 openmoko: Do not force gsmd restart (for debugging purposes). Jul 31 10:55:23 hoi Jul 31 10:57:13 Hoi Jul 31 10:57:16 "No package 'WebKitGdk' found" <--- Is that a requirement for my system or should it be build on its own by the Makefile? Jul 31 11:03:31 any idea how to run 3D on openmoko when the final version (with the GPU) is released? Jul 31 11:04:37 Kheldar, possibly via opengl Jul 31 11:06:15 when there will be drivers. Jul 31 11:06:18 opengles most likely Jul 31 11:07:10 ok, thx :) Jul 31 11:08:59 it's not like there _is_ anything else to consider here than opengles Jul 31 11:09:13 what did you think, direct3d? :] Jul 31 11:10:02 why not :p Jul 31 11:11:02 in fact I am looking further (I use ogre, which has a port to windows mobile) and wonder what will be the level of complexity for porting that to openmoko Jul 31 11:11:04 and note that GTA02 being out will not necessarily mean that there will yet be drivers taking full advantage of the GPU Jul 31 11:11:24 yep Jul 31 11:11:49 in fact bet against it Jul 31 11:13:34 (anyway, I *WILL* get the machine, so whether or not there are drivers at that moment is not relevant for buying but I hope somebody does write these drivers... I know for a fact it's not your average coder that develops good drivers for GPUs :s ) Jul 31 11:14:36 that somebody will probably have to be the overworked openmoko guys, unless they got a really good deal with smedia for gpu datasheets and stuff and be able to offload some of the work Jul 31 11:15:17 or, of course, hire new blood, FIC willing (to pay :) Jul 31 11:16:13 mmmh Jul 31 11:16:44 I'd be willing to move to Taiwan if paid for working on Openmoko, but not good enough :/) Jul 31 11:17:05 so I'll just wait :p Jul 31 11:18:36 <- no relevant experience and emphatically not hard-working and concentrated enough Jul 31 11:18:57 ^^^' Jul 31 11:19:28 Anyone getting hardware - if you've got DMM or a scope - or are taking it apart - please fil in the numbers in http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Unresolved_Hardware_Questions Jul 31 11:20:03 On another topic. Jul 31 11:20:10 ogre pda port uses openGL-ES Jul 31 11:20:48 Kheldar: At the moment. Jul 31 11:20:50 so if I understand it right, it's "just" a matter of getting OGLES drivers for the GPU Jul 31 11:20:51 if any of you lot are in ireland (preferably near cork), i can lend you a 4 channel scope Jul 31 11:21:18 It looks like the GPU specs will only be available by NDA. Jul 31 11:21:31 All drivers will have to be written by FIC. Jul 31 11:21:58 Due to time constraints, the GPU may not support all its possible features. Jul 31 11:22:33 OK so we have an open phone except the GSM, except the GSP, except the GPU. Any others? Jul 31 11:22:42 s/GSP/GPS/ Jul 31 11:22:42 squalyl meant: OK so we have an open phone except the GSM, except the GPS, except the GPU. Any others? Jul 31 11:22:44 This could in principle be worse in GTA03 - as some of the upcoming chips have an embedded DSP, which we - the users may not have drivers for. Jul 31 11:23:02 I'm working on the GPS, all I need is a neo. Jul 31 11:23:28 lol ok. GPS will get open drivers. Jul 31 11:23:31 s/drivers/specs/ Jul 31 11:23:36 It _may_. Jul 31 11:23:45 It's still possible we may hit roadblocks. Jul 31 11:23:57 As a broad guess. Jul 31 11:24:44 We're a couple of stages from getting 1Km precision after 16 minutes of integration on a stationary point. Jul 31 11:24:45 I'd say chances on open GPS driver are high. Only issue I see may be legal one. Jul 31 11:25:00 Using GPS as just a Transit-alike. Jul 31 11:25:20 Then a couple more stages to get a rough GPS position - say +-50m Jul 31 11:25:47 Then it's a case of polishing it to get to similar performance than the existing software. Jul 31 11:26:02 OK. good luck with this. What level are you working at? Computing fix from satellite data packets? Jul 31 11:26:04 And then there is further work to get it better. Jul 31 11:26:18 That's the second and last stages only. Jul 31 11:26:28 SpeedEvil, and then go further. Jul 31 11:26:30 First we have to work out how to recieve the packets Jul 31 11:26:32 I don't understand something... drivers for GSM are open, even though GSM is a black box, right? Jul 31 11:26:37 yes. Jul 31 11:26:41 cjb_ie: from Eindhoven, Cork is quite close by Ryan Air :) But I have no time. Jul 31 11:26:48 it's a modem, talkable to with AT commands. Jul 31 11:27:06 The actual modem is closed-source. Jul 31 11:27:24 Same with wifi, wich a Jul 31 11:27:26 So we can't for example debug the latest ATT/Sim Sentry possible issue. Jul 31 11:27:47 Kero: pff, in eindhoven you can probably get mugged by oscilloscopes if you walk too close to philips ;-) Jul 31 11:27:59 Same with wifi, wich has closed firmware. But that's ok, since communication protocol is open Jul 31 11:28:04 I think the bluetooth module actually has open-source. Jul 31 11:28:08 Well\ Jul 31 11:28:13 available source Jul 31 11:28:32 However, it's in ROM. Jul 31 11:28:41 And what is the difference with GPU? Jul 31 11:28:57 No fundamental difference from the GPS. Jul 31 11:29:01 The problem is. Jul 31 11:29:21 If we have no driver to observe doing a function, it's _really_ hard to implement that function. Jul 31 11:30:01 openmoko: 03laforge * r2584 10/trunk/doc/hardware/GTA01Bv4/pmu-voltage.txt: D3REG is STBY_1V8 (Joachim Steiger) Jul 31 11:30:04 Especially if the only thing we have is a 2-page poorly written spec-sheet. Jul 31 11:30:06 do we know if the GPU is based an any given desktop chip? Jul 31 11:30:10 it's not. Jul 31 11:30:14 shit. Jul 31 11:31:12 * jas4711 has just unpacked his neo advanced. nice stylus with laser! Jul 31 11:31:24 Are you charging your laser? Jul 31 11:32:27 me sooo would like to get one of the bomb-casings (ie: the lunchbox) Jul 31 11:32:39 cjb_ie: don't tell anyone, I'm inside Philips :) Jul 31 11:34:06 if there is anything specific to measure with an oscilloscope, I can do that, likely. Jul 31 11:35:42 Kero: See the topic - Jul 31 11:35:57 the page there has ideas on what needs measured. Jul 31 11:36:28 Also see the Neo1973 GTA01 Power Mangment page Jul 31 11:36:48 it'd be interesting to put a scope on one of those AT&T sims that won't talk Jul 31 11:37:16 FWIW, I have access to a scope as well Jul 31 11:38:29 multimeter I have at home. Don't need a scope for the things on that page! Jul 31 11:39:03 Well. Jul 31 11:39:03 but it'd prolly be better to let a hardware colleague cut the wire :P Jul 31 11:39:27 A true RMS meter is needed for some of the things perhaps. Jul 31 11:39:34 As the waveforms may be very spiky Jul 31 11:39:55 ^ Jul 31 11:40:31 and I don't know what RMS means :) though I understand what you imply with "spiky" Jul 31 11:40:32 You want the current draw measured under various loads Jul 31 11:40:50 I don't see why it would need to be RMS? Jul 31 11:40:52 moin LaF0rge Jul 31 11:40:55 Root Mean Square. Jul 31 11:40:58 Basically. Jul 31 11:41:04 Err Jul 31 11:41:17 It doesn't actually need to be RMS on reflection. Jul 31 11:41:18 it's DC Jul 31 11:41:25 ;) Jul 31 11:41:32 It's DC with a large AC component in some cases. Jul 31 11:41:35 a RMS meter sounds scary Jul 31 11:42:01 LaF0rge: i've been talking to prpplague about the sdi controller issues. he found out that it doesn't even generate interrupts for sdio Jul 31 11:42:18 Fatal: don't worry, it's not richard m stallman Jul 31 11:42:21 LaF0rge: not that this is causing my issues, but this might be something that requires a hardware change Jul 31 11:42:24 cjb_ie: :) Jul 31 11:42:31 LaF0rge: otherwise performance is going to be crappy Jul 31 11:42:45 And the AC component may not be well measured by cheap meters. Jul 31 11:43:59 which AC component? The page I'm reading wan't the charging current measured (why is beyond me btw, it would be more interesting to measure the current draw from the battery w/ _not_ charging) Jul 31 11:44:31 The page mentioned in the topic is measured with battery charged. Jul 31 11:44:43 Not charging - to take it out of the circuit effectively. Jul 31 11:44:55 is it a constant charger, not pulsed? Jul 31 11:45:03 cos if pulsed a normal DMM wont read it correctly Jul 31 11:45:39 CoreDump|afk: Some loads may be pulsed. For example - 100mA for 1ms, 1ma for 50ms Jul 31 11:45:55 this will not be measured accurately with many DMMs Jul 31 11:46:01 ugh indeed Jul 31 11:46:37 The GSM modem, for example is IIRC 2W spikes with a 1/8th or so duty cycle. Jul 31 11:46:41 When I get the chance I shall have a look today ;) Jul 31 11:47:38 SpeedEvil: which is where the characteristic angry-wasp GSM RFI comes from. Jul 31 11:47:43 Yeah. Jul 31 11:52:13 if the fluke is quick enough, I probably can produce some nice "screenshots" for your viewing pleasure Jul 31 11:52:28 anyway, time to go Jul 31 11:55:38 Fine. Jul 31 11:57:26 That would be fine. Jul 31 12:07:55 woglinde: hi Jul 31 12:09:29 hi zecke Jul 31 12:14:08 Hello Lord Jul 31 12:14:17 ??? Jul 31 12:18:18 I'm thinking about that, I'll look into it and eventually if interesting make an entry on the wiki, but of course we'd still need those drivers :) http://www.manifestgames.com/Mobile/Ogre_PocketPC_WhitePaper.pdf Jul 31 12:22:22 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[P1_Owners]] [[Technical:Accelerometer_Fundamentals]] [[User:Bitplane/ideas]] [[Neo1973_GTA01_Power_Management]] [[Talk:Ringtones]] Jul 31 12:29:31 * FuzzyCat wonders how open this open phone is going to end up being Jul 31 12:30:32 wide? Jul 31 12:33:13 my neo finally arrived :) Jul 31 12:33:40 openmoko: 03njp * r2585 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007.2/applications/openmoko-dialer2/ (ChangeLog src/moko-dialer.c): Jul 31 12:33:40 openmoko: 2007-07-31 Neil J. Patel Jul 31 12:33:40 openmoko: * src/moko-dialer.c: (on_keypad_dial_clicked): Jul 31 12:33:40 openmoko: Some fixes to dialing function. Jul 31 12:34:02 thomasg gratz Jul 31 12:34:42 even without functionallity (yet): I love it :) Jul 31 12:35:05 even if you have to charge it all 6 hours? Jul 31 12:35:24 we'll see :) Jul 31 12:35:50 but it's more for playing around, developing some apps (and test it under real conditions) and so on Jul 31 12:35:51 can u charge itin a nokia? Jul 31 12:36:02 fuzzycat? Jul 31 12:36:05 the battery? Jul 31 12:36:08 the battery Jul 31 12:36:12 hm Jul 31 12:36:16 don't know Jul 31 12:36:19 could work Jul 31 12:36:27 some nokia battery works at neo Jul 31 12:36:32 dont know the opposite Jul 31 12:36:39 no, the nokia charges refuses to charge other batteries afaik Jul 31 12:36:51 :( Jul 31 12:36:55 s/charges/charger/ Jul 31 12:36:55 spliffy meant: no, the nokia charger refuses to charge other batteries afaik Jul 31 12:42:52 is this known (for perl-native)? SysV.xs:7:25: Error: asm/page.h: File not found. Jul 31 12:52:15 thomasg yes its know Jul 31 12:52:20 look at the wiki Jul 31 12:53:14 spliffy: Cheap 'no-name' chargers work Jul 31 13:05:20 where i get an webkitgdk.pc? the makefile stopped cause it didn't found it for configuring openmoko-rssreader Jul 31 13:06:01 I'm wondering: does GPS allow for height positionning? Jul 31 13:06:03 openmoko: 03njp * r2586 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007.2/applications/openmoko-dialer2/ (ChangeLog src/moko-dialer.c): Jul 31 13:06:03 openmoko: 2007-07-31 Neil J. Patel Jul 31 13:06:03 openmoko: * src/moko-dialer.c: (on_call_progress_changed): Jul 31 13:06:03 openmoko: Add a bunch of debug statements to find out what gsmd is doing. Jul 31 13:08:11 !seen roh Jul 31 13:08:13 SpeedEvil, roh is right here! Jul 31 13:08:52 Kheldar, yes Jul 31 13:09:54 * * OM Bug 672 has been created by nick(AT)anywi.com Jul 31 13:09:56 * *  for valid config descriptors Jul 31 13:09:57 * * http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=672 Jul 31 13:11:55 * * OM Bug 673 has been created by nick(AT)anywi.com Jul 31 13:11:56 * * e the DFU status value correctly during download Jul 31 13:11:57 * * http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=673 Jul 31 13:13:27 Zennor: Build process is broken because of openmoko-rssreader dependency on webkit but nothing seems to provide this dep! Jul 31 13:13:37 Zennor: I'm also blocked on this bug. Jul 31 13:14:14 squalyl: ok can you give me the bugzilla-link? maybe I can add useful information Jul 31 13:14:46 What pre-built root filesystem images have people tried with GTA01B_v04? it seems uboot and kernel is already installed. SHA1/MD5 values? Jul 31 13:20:37 Zennor: I think it's here: http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=671 Jul 31 13:22:58 SpeedEvil: You around? Jul 31 13:23:24 squalyl: thanks for the info :) Jul 31 13:24:50 anyone know if the GPU in GTA02 is used in any windows mobile devices? Jul 31 13:26:43 probably Jul 31 13:27:34 would be useful to see what bits the driver bangs etc Jul 31 13:30:32 woglinde, do you have a wiki link for the perl-native problem? can't find it using the search-function Jul 31 13:31:02 hm there was a page with all mokofile build failures Jul 31 13:31:08 let me see if I can find them Jul 31 13:31:28 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Talk:MokoMakefile Jul 31 13:32:08 hm Jul 31 13:37:28 anyone else ever think they have their neo turned off and then find it in deep-low power mode? Jul 31 13:38:07 Zennor: To fix the problem with RSS reader I'm currently trying to set SRCDATE_openmoko-rssreader="20070701" in openmoko/trunk/oe/conf/distro/include/preferred-openmoko-versions.inc, Jul 31 13:38:30 squalyl yes that was the fix Jul 31 13:38:48 lol it does not change anything here Jul 31 13:38:56 or you fix the webkit part *g* Jul 31 13:39:01 I'm now trying to delete all generated/downloaded file Jul 31 13:39:04 rm the tar.gz Jul 31 13:39:19 squalyl: ok I'll try it now :) Jul 31 13:39:25 I have absolutely no idea of how webkit works ! Jul 31 13:39:46 squalyl hm right its now webkit its the integration *g* Jul 31 13:39:49 now=not Jul 31 13:40:18 I guess that backdating SRCDATE does not run the needed SVN update, so the source remains more recent than requested Jul 31 13:40:35 resulting in no effect :) Jul 31 13:40:59 i don't think webkit's in the openmoko tree... it *is* in angstrom Jul 31 13:41:36 lol another guy this one... What is angstrom? Jul 31 13:41:57 openmoko needs openembedded, which in turns uses angstrom... is it all? ^_^ Jul 31 13:42:03 NOTE: package gcc-cross-4.1.1-r11: task do_compile: started Jul 31 13:42:09 * squalyl fetching a coffee Jul 31 13:43:19 angstrom is another distribution that uses the openembedded toolset Jul 31 13:43:34 the openmoko tree is based off an older version so new stuff isn't getting in Jul 31 13:43:40 aha Jul 31 13:43:42 for instance an angstrom neo build is EABI Jul 31 13:44:45 OK I guess these problems will be (at least partially) resolved with the near-coming openmoko -> oe merge? Jul 31 13:45:42 yeah Jul 31 13:45:57 i hope the gps daemon is released in both OABI and EABI ;) Jul 31 13:46:44 And GPL. Jul 31 13:46:55 we're not getting *that* far yet :/ Jul 31 13:48:46 happycube, well, if one of the issues they've been resolving is that they can compile the gllin themselves, at least it'd be up to the moko guys, not gl Jul 31 13:49:07 yeah Jul 31 13:53:09 Umm - no. Jul 31 13:53:30 Compiling it yourself does not mean that you can release source, even if you have it. Jul 31 13:54:15 SE - yeah Jul 31 13:54:28 but if they only sent an oabi binary it won't be terribly useful after the next OE transition Jul 31 13:54:37 it won't run ;) Jul 31 13:55:35 Oh - right. Jul 31 13:56:10 Why does everyone misspell ångström ;) Jul 31 13:56:17 lol. Jul 31 13:56:19 ;) Jul 31 13:56:20 inz we have no utf8 yet Jul 31 13:56:23 lack of euro keyboard Jul 31 13:57:30 Please don't let this man torture me. Jul 31 13:59:24 rwhitby, on the discussion-page I can't find nothing about asm/page.h or perl-native Jul 31 14:01:16 happycube: I lack euro on keyboard but can write Ångström Jul 31 14:01:44 what's the trick? Jul 31 14:02:04 Here's one € for your copy paste games Jul 31 14:02:20 Yay, I can do € too! Jul 31 14:02:27 € Ⓡ⁂Ⓤ⁂Ⓛ⁂Ⓔ⁂Ⓩ Jul 31 14:02:29 ngström Jul 31 14:02:34 that didn't work too well. Jul 31 14:02:36 fail Jul 31 14:02:37 (for you UTF-8-brethren) Jul 31 14:02:38 openmoko: 03laforge * r2587 10/trunk/doc/hardware/GTA02v2/ (. gpio.txt): Add GTA02v2 GPIO list, reflecting GTA02_MB_A2_0730_ALLEN3 Jul 31 14:02:56 i wonder what's different from gta02v1 Jul 31 14:04:19 laforge is commiting a lot today... :) Jul 31 14:07:09 according to pmu-voltage.txt gta01bv4's cpu is running at 2.1v? Jul 31 14:07:21 Elrond, hi! Any sphyrna news? Jul 31 14:08:15 oh no, got a dead pixel :( Jul 31 14:08:50 i'm amazed that there haven't been more reports of that. I mean with how tightly they're packed.... Jul 31 14:09:17 hi, can I use ipkg install file.ipk ? Jul 31 14:09:54 Tyrael, yes Jul 31 14:10:24 It tell me: Cannot find package Jul 31 14:10:41 then it's probably not there ;) Jul 31 14:10:55 you need to copy it to the device first Jul 31 14:11:01 I do it Jul 31 14:11:08 it is in the same dir Jul 31 14:11:34 perhaps some dependencies are not installed? Jul 31 14:11:35 what version of arm should I use? Jul 31 14:13:05 Tyrael, use http://pastebin.com/ with the error and an ls -l in the relevant directory Jul 31 14:13:46 I'm tryng to install mpg321 Jul 31 14:14:00 use madplay Jul 31 14:14:30 armv5te is ok? Jul 31 14:14:58 no Jul 31 14:15:03 v4t? Jul 31 14:15:07 armv4t Jul 31 14:15:13 is there anyone who maybe sell a used neo1973 ? Jul 31 14:15:13 dernicklosekopf: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (and also SH1_FAQ, Neo1973, Developer_preview and Neo1973_Hardware#GTA01Bv4 pages) (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.) Jul 31 14:15:30 d Jul 31 14:16:58 :) Jul 31 14:17:16 dernicklosekopf: haven't heard about anybody selling used Neo1973 yet ;-) Jul 31 14:17:27 who want to have mine? :P Jul 31 14:17:41 have heard a lot of people trying to get hand on Neo1973 though Jul 31 14:17:49 thomasg_: me i, or what ever... Jul 31 14:17:58 just kidding :) Jul 31 14:18:02 let's talk four figures and I might part with mine ;) Jul 31 14:18:02 damn ;) Jul 31 14:18:15 Shoragan: Ok thanks Jul 31 14:18:21 ok, I'd sell it for $600, too :) Jul 31 14:18:37 lol no thanks :) Jul 31 14:18:50 hehe, somebody could have made killing by ordering 11 of them to USA address and ebaying them ;-) Jul 31 14:19:17 * aloril guesses most (if not all) first 500 units did go to those that really wanted it Jul 31 14:19:39 mhmpf ebay does not know openmoko or neo1973... Jul 31 14:20:33 openmoko still doesn't want to build here. every time this perl-native error: "SysV.xs:7:25: Error: asm/page.h: File not found." - several people told me it is known and that there is a solution on the wiki, but I can't find it and nobody can tell me a link -.- Jul 31 14:22:03 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Neo1973_GTA01_Power_Management]] [[P1_Owners]] [[Talk:Application_Development_Crash_Course]] [[OpenMoko_local_Groups:_Copenhagen]] [[Wish_List]] [[User:Bitplane/ideas]] [[OpenMoko_Local_Groups:_Norway]] [[User:UlrikRasmussen]] Jul 31 14:22:08 Dmitry_Platonov - Well, somewhat. I start to consider the possibility, that the artefacts I'm always talking about, are somewhat a breakage of my HH. Jul 31 14:22:18 are somebody interesting to trade a neo1973 for a 19" lc-display ? Jul 31 14:23:34 open - that not means that it is reachable for everyone with no money... Jul 31 14:23:56 I'd be willing to trade mine when it arrives for a nice 91" 3D display. Jul 31 14:24:13 sorry, i cant help you Jul 31 14:25:20 i think i need more to talk in english, because my english is terrible... Jul 31 14:25:38 moko-bunny lol Jul 31 14:25:49 what? :) Jul 31 14:25:49 moko-bunn1: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (and also SH1_FAQ, Neo1973, Developer_preview and Neo1973_Hardware#GTA01Bv4 pages) (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.) Jul 31 14:26:01 just the nick Jul 31 14:26:10 nick? Jul 31 14:26:15 oh... Jul 31 14:26:25 dernicklosekopf: It's not bad actually. Jul 31 14:26:27 here, I'll explain http://users.pullman.com/webcams Jul 31 14:26:33 oops Jul 31 14:26:50 dernicklosekopf: dont worry, mine is terrible too but everyone is kind enough to understand me ;) Jul 31 14:26:51 http://users.pullman.com/estratte/webcams Jul 31 14:27:02 there....explains the bunny part :) Jul 31 14:28:25 Ah, someone captured the Monty Python Killer Rabbit. Very good... Jul 31 14:28:37 i think my grammar is bad, but i cant say it, i dont know... Jul 31 14:29:01 indeed :D how do I revert the rssreader so the dang thing will build? Jul 31 14:30:24 dernicklosekopf: I checked ebay before making that ebaying comment ;-) Jul 31 14:31:02 zecke: Your rss-reader drives me crazy. :) Jul 31 14:31:16 zecke: Any ETA when webkit is able to buil in OE? Jul 31 14:31:26 aloril: i havent found anything in ebay germany oder ebay.com... Jul 31 14:31:38 oder means or lol Jul 31 14:31:51 stefan_schmidt: webkit does build in OE for some date a week ago Jul 31 14:31:57 english with german :) Jul 31 14:32:03 Somebody who have the webkit build problem: Please tell me what SRCDATE it has in your scn checkout. Jul 31 14:32:12 XorA: Sure? Jul 31 14:32:22 stefan_schmidt: I ran GdkLauncher after guadec Jul 31 14:32:23 XorA: It builds once build fails now IIRC Jul 31 14:32:46 I have the webkit problem....where do I find the SRCDATE ? Jul 31 14:32:50 XorA: I know it builded once. :) Jul 31 14:33:23 dernicklosekopf: once GTA02 becomes available, I think some will 'upgrade' to it by selling their GTA01B_v04 Jul 31 14:33:34 stefan_schmidt: it builds in OE. Jul 31 14:33:49 moko-bunny: trunk/oe/conf/distro/include/preferred-openmoko-versions.inc Jul 31 14:33:57 zecke: today? Jul 31 14:34:05 aloril: i hope for it :) Jul 31 14:34:13 * stefan_schmidt tests webkit in OE Jul 31 14:34:15 stefan_schmidt: starting with yesterday rssreader failed to compile on the autobuilder :} Jul 31 14:34:32 zecke: I just found that, but why? Jul 31 14:34:44 zecke: Any faulty commit? Jul 31 14:34:45 stefan_schmidt: no idea :} Jul 31 14:35:00 hey what do you think about a 100-dollar-openmoko like a 100-dollar-laptop? Jul 31 14:35:02 stefan_schmidt: svn log of oe doesn't show anything interesting, did the time on the svn server change? Jul 31 14:35:31 zecke: hmm, it should not, but I have no login on it. Jul 31 14:35:37 * zecke is nervous as he will be no longer home-less in about 30 minutes Jul 31 14:35:47 zecke: Ah, new glat? Jul 31 14:35:50 flat Jul 31 14:35:52 zecke go go Jul 31 14:36:04 yeah, I decided to try these things called "flat" Jul 31 14:36:05 stefan_schmidt: ahh...it says 20070722, should I set it earlier? Jul 31 14:36:17 dernicklosekopf, the current price is mostly the raw cost Jul 31 14:36:48 stefan_schmidt: for webkit/gdk one should fixate it to a date Jul 31 14:36:52 good luck! Jul 31 14:37:36 moko-bunny: moment Jul 31 14:37:43 zecke, XorA: NOTE: package webkit-0.0+svn20070731-r1: task do_compile: failed Jul 31 14:37:58 stefan_schmidt: that is faked :) Jul 31 14:38:03 stefan_schmidt: where did it fail? Jul 31 14:38:13 zecke: moment, pastebin right now Jul 31 14:38:50 zecke: http://pastebin.ca/640584 Jul 31 14:39:09 dernicklosekopf: just wait enough, no doubt eventually there will be used Neo1973 at $100 Jul 31 14:39:10 Shorogan: maybe an another company develope a cheaper model... some featers of the neo1987 do i dont need... Jul 31 14:39:19 moko-bunny: Let me search the commit zecke introduced webkit deps... Jul 31 14:39:34 stefan_schmidt: maybe koen is pissed as well, he had a fix for that Jul 31 14:39:52 aloril: yes i think that is a good idea... Jul 31 14:40:10 zecke: -v Jul 31 14:40:13 stefan_schmidt: k, looking at IRC log, looks like squalyl didn't have any luck with earlier versions of rssreader Jul 31 14:40:16 zecke: pissed of me our you? Jul 31 14:40:31 stefan_schmidt: QMAKE_MOC = "${STAGING_BINDIR}/moc4" in the webkitgdk.bb after the inherit qmake :) Jul 31 14:40:56 zecke: Do you push or should I? Jul 31 14:40:57 lol 100-dollar-server ;) Jul 31 14:41:07 stefan_schmidt: try it, and push Jul 31 14:41:20 moko-bunny: yeah, seen that. I try to go to the ground of the problem after the webkit stuff in OE. Jul 31 14:41:26 zecke: ok Jul 31 14:41:26 last GPRS connection was 1d 23h 50min 41s (was close to 2 days ;-) Jul 31 14:42:05 wow... does openmoko supports qt ? Jul 31 14:42:18 zecke: you mean webkit_svn.bb, right? Jul 31 14:42:21 I thought it was gtk based Jul 31 14:42:36 (umm.. not with Neo1973, don't have one yet, charged once, but I think even that is not needed: if no data moves GRPS doesn't seem to use much power) Jul 31 14:42:44 i think the 100-dollar-laptop/server is a really good idea for the third world... Jul 31 14:42:58 squalyl: That are deps from the angstrom build. Still GTK based. Jul 31 14:43:05 stefan_schmidt: probably :) Jul 31 14:43:12 squalyl: Some things use the qmake build system from. Jul 31 14:44:21 squalyl: yes we are collecting money for Trolltech to send them a Neo. Jul 31 14:45:49 haha collecting money. Jul 31 14:46:11 they could buy neos for us Jul 31 14:46:13 * ferric pokes ljp Jul 31 14:46:35 zecke: http://pastebin.ca/640595 So we need moc dep? As I have no idea about this: a bitbake moc fails, too. :) Jul 31 14:47:57 trolltech put a new file up Jul 31 14:48:05 so it's failing md5sum Jul 31 14:48:39 happycube: You mean moc? It'S failing in do_configure Jul 31 14:49:19 cool open source car... Jul 31 14:49:42 http://pastebin.ca/640599 Jul 31 14:51:21 hey happycube - did you end up getting a neo? Jul 31 14:52:40 have germany a good position in the world? Jul 31 14:52:57 means technology, open source ect Jul 31 14:54:17 dernicklosekopf hm a lot of opensource soft comes from germany Jul 31 14:54:47 and I doubt we have the most devs per square kilometers Jul 31 14:55:26 diese nation ist ja doch zu was gebrauchen ... Jul 31 14:55:46 dernicklosekopf yes sometimes Jul 31 14:56:12 moko-bunny, squalyl: I just build and try to reproduce your errors Jul 31 14:57:12 stefan_schmidt: thanks! Jul 31 14:57:57 if look into the patriament, you will only see stupid peoples... why does it dont give something like open source politics oder web 2.0 politics... :( Jul 31 14:58:09 We have web 2.0 politics. Jul 31 14:58:17 Flashy-content-free sound-bite-driven. Jul 31 14:58:19 we think this Jul 31 14:58:56 zecke: BTW, I think you found http://svnweb.openmoko.org/ already Jul 31 14:58:58 Lack of actual discussion of hard issues in ways that may take more than a few words. Jul 31 14:59:24 lol Jul 31 14:59:44 ive used oder for or again Jul 31 14:59:44 'Terror bad!' 'Iran Bad!' Jul 31 15:00:05 i thought web 2.0 politics was the blogosphere Jul 31 15:00:57 the politcal debate about iran and terror are an big lie... Jul 31 15:03:07 hmm, zecke changed to webkit dep at 23.07 so 22.07 should be totally fine for a build without the dep. *grmbl* Jul 31 15:03:37 in germany dies every year 15.000 people in reason of bad doctors, i dont know how i tell this... but there is no hype about it... Jul 31 15:04:34 how many people die in germany from terror? Jul 31 15:05:00 not so much as soon as traffic accidents or failures of doctors... Jul 31 15:05:34 dernicklosekopf hm I think you are on the wrong channel, beside the fact I am your opinion Jul 31 15:05:46 * Stephmw wonders if he joined #politics by mistake Jul 31 15:05:48 but the news in the tv say terror is an danger in germany Jul 31 15:05:55 muuuuuuuuahahahahhahahahahahhah my fic play music :D Jul 31 15:06:11 woglide: yes i think your right... Jul 31 15:06:14 dernicklosekopf: yeah but solving those costs money instead of pumping more money to oil companies and construction companies and the military Jul 31 15:06:19 Tyrael: cat a.wav > /dev/dsp? Jul 31 15:06:25 madplay Jul 31 15:07:12 for a .wav try aplay Jul 31 15:07:24 hype about what? Jul 31 15:07:55 i have more chances to die in my household as soon as at a terrorattack... Jul 31 15:08:08 ok Jul 31 15:08:14 terror Jul 31 15:08:24 right Jul 31 15:08:26 listen Jul 31 15:08:44 my own LUG channel is poisoned by this, and I don't want #openmoko to go the same way Jul 31 15:08:52 do the final version of the neo1973 support mp3-encoding? Jul 31 15:09:02 NO MORE POLITICS, TAKE IT TO #politics-and-bitching Jul 31 15:09:09 k pls thx bye Jul 31 15:09:25 ewon: plzkthxbye is the correct wording :P Jul 31 15:09:32 so it is, apologies Jul 31 15:09:43 *bitch* Jul 31 15:09:46 :) Jul 31 15:09:48 Letoto: the military don't get the money... arms companies do Jul 31 15:09:48 :) Jul 31 15:10:13 the military get killed in wars for arms companies benefits... and programmers, btw Jul 31 15:10:34 Bush doesn't care about peace in the golf states. He just wants to sell his weapons. And the war pushes the oilprices so his oilcompany makes record gains Jul 31 15:10:37 given how many people code missiles and others... Jul 31 15:10:58 so, HOW ABOUT THIS LINUX PHONE THING Jul 31 15:11:10 I know it's a bit off-topic, sorry Jul 31 15:11:13 ... Jul 31 15:11:26 oil suxx... i dont want to tell more about oil, we will never get back to the channeltopic :) Jul 31 15:11:45 welll... anybody got his neo? :p Jul 31 15:11:52 * Stephmw hands ewon the iron ClueBat. "go for it" Jul 31 15:12:04 \o/ Jul 31 15:12:06 do the final version of the neo1973 support mp3-encoding? Jul 31 15:12:18 neo rulz Jul 31 15:12:18 ewon: but that's all old news. won't compile on x86_64, won't compile with fedora, emulator runs poorly :P Jul 31 15:12:31 dernicklosekopf: that's a software question, the answer is variously, no, maybe and yes. Jul 31 15:12:53 ewon: Haha. ;-P Jul 31 15:12:54 dernicklosekopf: it will, but slowly. You could probably do mp3 encoding on a Z80 if you were not in a hurry :) Jul 31 15:13:45 ah, it will be support software encoding? Jul 31 15:14:11 don't think there is any provision in hardware Jul 31 15:14:15 iirc Jul 31 15:15:20 for 400 dollars will i have a mp3 encoder, that feater has any cheap mp3-player from china... Jul 31 15:15:22 the quesiton is Jul 31 15:15:25 I hope there will be soon a similar project like Openmoko to develop a new GPU. So we dont have to use those blob drivers from Nvidia and Ati Jul 31 15:15:35 how fast does the cpu ned to run at to decode an mp3 realtime so it playse without skips Jul 31 15:15:48 and then u need to dropt he cpu clock to that rate to save power Jul 31 15:15:49 :) Jul 31 15:16:32 it is possible to change some hardware-units form the phone? Jul 31 15:16:40 no Jul 31 15:16:46 the phone is all integrated Jul 31 15:16:55 everything is soldered onto the main board Jul 31 15:16:58 you get what you get Jul 31 15:16:58 :( Jul 31 15:17:12 There's nouveau, dando. :-) Jul 31 15:17:18 (open source nvidia driver) Jul 31 15:17:59 a mobile-phone need to work how a pc, if the old soundcard sucks, i replace it with a new :) Jul 31 15:18:14 hah, good luck with that Jul 31 15:18:14 daxxar: but you cant use the opengl part with this driver! only 2D Jul 31 15:18:29 dernicklosekopf: not posswible. you'd have a phone the size of a toaster Jul 31 15:18:35 daxxar: i think i dont know Jul 31 15:18:37 It has limited opengl thus far. Jul 31 15:18:46 the reasons phones can be so small, power efficient and cheap is because ti is all integrated Jul 31 15:18:47 ok Jul 31 15:19:00 any idea what interface there will be to the GPU in GTA02? Jul 31 15:19:02 its manufacturing reality these days Jul 31 15:19:06 e.g. openGL or something more basic? Jul 31 15:19:09 but a new GPU with open specification is much better Jul 31 15:19:10 ewon: yes - there will Jul 31 15:19:17 the 02 will have a gpu that is 100% open too Jul 31 15:19:17 raster: if i can toast my bread with my mobilephone... why not? ;) Jul 31 15:19:27 the 01 has no GPU (worth talking about) Jul 31 15:19:28 dernicklosekopf: There has been discussions about modularized phones on this channel. If you want to get arguments for why it's not doable, ask SpeedEvil ;-) Jul 31 15:19:32 raster: you what? it's closed as a bastard... Jul 31 15:19:33 s/has/have/ Jul 31 15:19:33 daxxar meant: dernicklosekopf: There have been discussions about modularized phones on this channel. If you want to get arguments for why it's not doable, ask SpeedEvil ;-) Jul 31 15:19:56 ewon: it won't be Jul 31 15:19:58 raster: AFAIK they have like an NDA'd 2-page spec sheet on the thing and little more... Jul 31 15:20:02 SpeedEvil? Jul 31 15:20:18 the point of the moko *IS* to be 100% open Jul 31 15:20:33 the drivers WILL be open Jul 31 15:20:41 99 % Jul 31 15:20:42 raster: emphasis on future tense :) Jul 31 15:21:05 hi raster Jul 31 15:21:20 http://pastebin.ca/640641 Jul 31 15:21:39 a 'modularized' phone based on the gumstix has got me intrigued. i just need a head-mounted monocle bluetooth display. Jul 31 15:21:41 A friend of mine is wondering if you can use openmoko t o make a voice encrypted phone Jul 31 15:21:52 ewon: we cannot provide source code to drivers that we haven't written yet :) Jul 31 15:21:52 see pastebin for question Jul 31 15:21:59 Hallelujah! Jul 31 15:22:00 LaF0rge: exactly :) Jul 31 15:22:03 (script) openmoko-community: Sean Moss-Pultz Re: GTA02 status updates please Jul 31 15:22:16 SpeedEvil: why it isnt possible to build modularized mobile-phones? Jul 31 15:22:24 ewon: the 02 is also a "futrue tense" thing too currently :) Jul 31 15:22:32 ewon: and why would you care about source code for drivers for hardware that doesn't exist yet, or rather, whose first prototypes have not reached more than five people so far :) Jul 31 15:22:48 it isnt? Jul 31 15:23:05 mokoninja!! Jul 31 15:23:40 LaF0rge: I'm more concerned about the ability of FIC / the community to get an operational driver going with Very Little Documentation(tm) Jul 31 15:24:10 is there more info the hw coming once the hw production ramped up, or are you looking at poking a black box? Jul 31 15:24:23 where hw == gpu Jul 31 15:24:29 aloril: would it be possible to get straight urls to the archives with the e-mail announcements? Jul 31 15:24:58 laptops can be modularized too, why not a handy? Jul 31 15:25:00 LaF0rge: also, above in "closed as as bastard" I was referring to the gpu and it's specs, not the source code of the non-existant driver :) Jul 31 15:25:00 ewon: we don't have any lack of documentation. Jul 31 15:25:04 guaqua: maybe Jul 31 15:25:14 LaF0rge: oh, I was led to believe you were, apologies. Jul 31 15:25:17 handy = mobile phone Jul 31 15:25:43 oh lol Jul 31 15:25:46 ewon: I really believe it's none of your business to talk about things that are not released yet. feel free to bitch about GTA01. Jul 31 15:25:48 ;) Jul 31 15:26:00 LaF0rge, Jul 31 15:26:04 like oder :) Jul 31 15:26:16 LaF0rge, good to see youactive on irc after long time Jul 31 15:26:21 we really live to talk about things that are not released yet :) Jul 31 15:26:28 just have faith Jul 31 15:26:32 immer diese neudeutsche Aussprache Jul 31 15:26:40 i am sure moko will have an open gpu to play with Jul 31 15:26:42 LaF0rge: hey now come on :) all I'm worried about it getting the best software possible for GTA02 - I was int he openGL business for a while, and was looking for something to poke at, that's all Jul 31 15:26:46 ewon: wiki should know somethign about the new gpu too Jul 31 15:26:48 i know i want one! Jul 31 15:26:48 :) Jul 31 15:26:56 ewon, we've been told it'll be a * SMedia 3362 Graphics Accelerator, so why don't you just get the information for that? i think the gpu is fairly open Jul 31 15:27:05 raster: my thoughts exactly :) Jul 31 15:27:09 heh, wonders if it's appropriate to note that if people wouldn't have talked about unreleased stuff, openmoko would have gained little interest during the last... 6 months? ;) Jul 31 15:27:14 galexande: I've been googling, with little result beyond a generic spec sheet Jul 31 15:27:30 * moko-bunny thinks the GTA02 advanced kit will have a TLA5000 and a DPO7000 for the hardcore hacker :D lol Jul 31 15:27:35 heh Jul 31 15:27:41 i want the BFG9001 Jul 31 15:28:27 actually what i'd also like is to be able to run gta02 w/o battery ;) Jul 31 15:28:49 (i know... us silly customers want everything) Jul 31 15:28:55 those items would add about $100k to the price :-P Jul 31 15:29:20 i had to steal the battery out of my nokia to demo my neo on saturday Jul 31 15:29:26 bye Jul 31 15:29:28 cya Jul 31 15:29:32 mhm im in interessting to run a php-interpreter on a mobilephone... Jul 31 15:30:16 dernicklosekopf, its not that difficult. All you ahve to do is compile php with openembedded Jul 31 15:30:29 that's a bit like a mobile shower in a car...running php on cell phone Jul 31 15:30:35 heh Jul 31 15:30:42 guaqua, lol Jul 31 15:30:49 ewon, i see what you mean about th esmedia chip. their idea of developer relations is a golf game? Jul 31 15:30:55 quaqua: only just for fun :) Jul 31 15:31:25 dernicklosekopf, if you want fun then try running blender3d on the phone Jul 31 15:31:54 .join #trivi Jul 31 15:32:25 i dont think that it works Jul 31 15:32:25 dernicklosekopf: It's _possible_. Problems are: Jul 31 15:32:26 anyone recieved the second round of shipping emails? Jul 31 15:33:14 mintee, nah, looks like they forgot to send those emails Jul 31 15:33:16 Price, size of handset, weight, cost, flexibility. Pick any two for a modular phone. Jul 31 15:33:26 no_mind, lol Jul 31 15:33:32 mintee: nope. Jul 31 15:33:41 SpeedEvil, what is the difference between price and cost Jul 31 15:33:45 k, just making sure i wasn't singled out :P Jul 31 15:33:59 Fundamentally, the problem is that you need mechanical fixings for the modular bits. You need a case round them, and plastic fittings for them to sit in. You need connectors. All of this is 'dead' weight. Jul 31 15:34:08 price is for the consumer, cost is for the manufacture Jul 31 15:34:11 no_mind: price - that was the enduser pais Jul 31 15:34:15 pays Jul 31 15:34:18 or so Jul 31 15:34:27 dernicklosekopf, as an end user price == cost Jul 31 15:34:29 mintee: Did your card get billed? Jul 31 15:34:36 And then you run into the issue that you have to size the modular bits so that the largest module will fit in them. Jul 31 15:34:40 costs: the prize that the developer have to pay Jul 31 15:34:48 This wastes _lots_ of space on smaller modules. Jul 31 15:34:58 you could have limited modularity Jul 31 15:35:07 ozarka, i donno yet... long story Jul 31 15:35:10 switch a few pieces, maybe Jul 31 15:35:11 As an example, a 3-axis compass might take up 1cm*1cm*2mm of PCB space. Jul 31 15:35:13 and the difference between costs and price is the win for the company Jul 31 15:35:16 SpeedEvil, and what you nasticsmean by flexibility? I hope you dont expect your phone to do gy Jul 31 15:35:17 no_mind: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (and also SH1_FAQ, Neo1973, Developer_preview and Neo1973_Hardware#GTA01Bv4 pages) (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.) Jul 31 15:35:26 counter Jul 31 15:35:26 (last update 2007-07-27 06:54) http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter : Order https://direct.openmoko.com/ ; Delivered prob. 75% in a day 10:12:14 (1.425±1.4 days) (1787;252) Jul 31 15:35:35 It's _really_ hard to make a module of that size. Jul 31 15:35:37 mintee: I understand. :-) Jul 31 15:35:56 Connectors ar the number one reliability problem in mobile equipment - after stuff the user can break. Jul 31 15:36:17 flexibility - how much you can vary the phone. Jul 31 15:36:23 SpeedEvil: i dont think that weight and size are a problem at the future Jul 31 15:37:02 A modular phone will always be larger and heavier than a similar technology of non-modular phone. Jul 31 15:37:14 Because the modularity adds cost, weight and volume. Jul 31 15:37:20 speed, unless it's brilliantly done Jul 31 15:37:33 Even if it's brilliantly done. Jul 31 15:37:47 if it's brilliantly done, it might weigh the same Jul 31 15:37:49 speed, i had a laptop that was put together really cheaply, with off-the-shelf components like dell does, but they were fairly clever in their case design so it was thinner than an ibook Jul 31 15:37:53 If you spend lots more money to change technology, then the modular phone can become smaller. Jul 31 15:37:59 and in a very limited scenario Jul 31 15:38:24 laptop, again is a different beast Jul 31 15:38:26 what they did is to the greatest extent possible they used the internal components to provide structure to the case, rather than vice versa Jul 31 15:38:34 today's chip size is still too big to do the same Jul 31 15:38:57 The fundamental problem is that you can do that with one arrangement of modules. Jul 31 15:39:03 If you hand-optimise the thing. Jul 31 15:39:19 SpeedEvil: the only problem that i see is that a modular-mobile-phone dont a lucrative business for companys Jul 31 15:39:22 speed, that is true, but each module is fairly standard and can be upgraded independently for the most part. Jul 31 15:39:24 However, you are stuck at a given size of module. Jul 31 15:39:48 for laptops it is already standardized, for mobile devices it would have to take some future enhancement Jul 31 15:39:54 if your gonna make it modular, make it wearable as well Jul 31 15:40:02 but already the neo's permanent store is in a removable module Jul 31 15:40:13 But that's of a standard size. Jul 31 15:40:16 and i don't think they really lose any space to speak of that way, compared to soldering flash onto the board. Jul 31 15:40:18 And there is one of them. Jul 31 15:40:28 Flash isn't the problem. Jul 31 15:40:34 The problem is - for example - the GSM modem. Jul 31 15:40:41 speed, yes but other problems can be approached the same way Jul 31 15:40:41 After you have developed a few PCBs you understand the pain of arranging connectors to allow modularity. Even for very simple PCBs. Jul 31 15:41:00 If you make that swappable, you have to make the modem module large enough to accomodate the largest module available. Jul 31 15:41:00 I hope that atleast the "entire" electronics will be modular at some point: you buy a nice shell, much like a metal clock today.. then you swap the entire "brain" of it. Jul 31 15:41:14 there's not too much advantage to swapping the cell chipset after construction, but there is advantage to doing it before construction. and so the gsm is modularized in that way Jul 31 15:41:20 i dont see a problem in building a mainboard where you can plug in some components like a display, a little microphone or othe components... Jul 31 15:41:53 dernicklosekopf: Unfortunately. This is one case where this is _HARD_. if you go into it in details. Jul 31 15:42:12 connectors are space consuming, too. Jul 31 15:42:12 For example - LCDs are typically available only in fixed sizes. Jul 31 15:42:20 dernick, the neo is already built that way. Jul 31 15:42:28 Going to a custom LCD that will fit your modular system is _expensive_ Jul 31 15:42:33 SpeedEvil: and? it is a problem? Jul 31 15:42:36 telephone... Jul 31 15:42:39 everything that connects to the mainboard using a cable is removable and ultimately replacable Jul 31 15:42:48 we come to a philosophical argument again - all electronic components are modulat Jul 31 15:42:51 modulat Jul 31 15:42:53 modular! Jul 31 15:42:54 dernicklosekopf: you're proposing to finance this stuff? Jul 31 15:43:06 <|R> cellular, odular, interactive, modular! Jul 31 15:43:15 * |R runs away with his banana phone Jul 31 15:43:21 they are to be assembled to form a product :) Jul 31 15:43:25 guaqua: however - the PCB is _very_ flexible - at design time. You can shuffle around every component essentially for free. Jul 31 15:43:27 LaF0rge - Bitching about GTA01: Can I have the docs on the "how to power up the GPS", so I can compare that with the kernel sources? ;o) Jul 31 15:43:30 Ring Ring Ring Ring Ring Ring Ring Ring Ring Ring Jul 31 15:43:37 i think that's in the wiki Jul 31 15:43:46 speed, building a new pcb isn't very expensive either. that is the awesomest part of living in the future, i think Jul 31 15:43:50 SpeedEvil: exactly - and in most cases, what do you benefit for going too modular? Jul 31 15:44:00 SpeedEvil: that is what i mean with a *lucrative business* :) Jul 31 15:44:21 galexande: No - a PCB isn't expensive. Have you noticed how long it took to get GTA02 out the door after GTA01? Jul 31 15:44:35 galexande: and this was with a competant design team working on the thing. Jul 31 15:44:37 the sound chipset, the power management, everything is already modular, and you just plop them on a pcb and do the netlist shuffle and then figure out the problems and you've built a new device from modular components. Jul 31 15:44:48 I like the way LaForge's wikipedia page has "see also: Theo de Raadt" on it Jul 31 15:45:11 PCB != modular IMO. Jul 31 15:45:27 but i think that my english is too bad for talk about a complexe thematic like this... :( Jul 31 15:45:35 speed, it's all about economies of scale Jul 31 15:45:48 fwiw i think a limited bit of modular expansion could be worked it without too much cost Jul 31 15:45:54 galexande: true - seventeen different models is quite possible if you've got the volume. Jul 31 15:46:05 and modularity in the form of programmable logic devices Jul 31 15:46:18 motorola does it... the motorola v60 is nearly identical to at least 10 different devices Jul 31 15:46:36 differentiated by case style, cpu speed, radio, battery, and display Jul 31 15:46:39 As I said. Jul 31 15:46:49 seventeen different models is quite possible if you've got the volume. Jul 31 15:46:59 speed yeah i was echoing you :) Jul 31 15:47:05 A big FPGA in the middle of the motherboard, and various antennas attached to it. We can wire it as we like! Jul 31 15:47:25 * squalyl hiding under the keyboard Jul 31 15:47:32 squalyl: you do know that software radio at the moment will take some 20-50W to run the phone? Jul 31 15:47:36 i'd settle for just small in system programmable to get the interrupts right Jul 31 15:47:45 * SpeedEvil wants a PIC. Jul 31 15:47:59 speed well they make them small enough to just shove in the empty space Jul 31 15:48:07 I'm planning to do that. Jul 31 15:48:10 re Jul 31 15:48:11 But I'm waiting on hardware. Jul 31 15:48:11 i think this idea of sacrificing the second speaker to make room (like for wifi) is brilliant Jul 31 15:48:27 ? Jul 31 15:48:27 speed, do you have a webpage of some of your projects? Jul 31 15:48:32 SpeedEvil: lol Jul 31 15:48:39 (past projects) Jul 31 15:48:39 [[Expansion Back]] on the wiki pretty much. Jul 31 15:48:45 No. Jul 31 15:49:39 small FPGA for routing signals between modules? (well.. I don't think modular is feasible, but routing FPGA might otherwise anyway make sense?) Jul 31 15:50:03 aloril, well most of the modular componentts offer a lot of routing capacity anyways Jul 31 15:51:11 Good morning mickeyl ;-) Jul 31 15:51:22 yawn Jul 31 15:51:23 hahahaha i love this idea of hooking it up to a bike computer Jul 31 15:51:24 morning Elrond Jul 31 15:51:46 I just remarked that my ipaq 4700 lost a screw Oo Jul 31 15:52:39 using a CPLD for all the assorted IRQ's, SDIO, etc, plus a single expansion connector would add little cost Jul 31 15:52:51 how can it loose a screw? Jul 31 15:52:59 the CPLD means you can fix mistakes without reworking the board Jul 31 15:53:08 I keep it with me all the time Jul 31 15:53:10 writchie, yeah but almost all of that is completely reprogramable anyways Jul 31 15:53:13 Writchie: A limited subset of mistakes. Jul 31 15:53:21 This is the screw next to the stylus place Jul 31 15:53:23 Writchie: At a power and space and cost cost. Jul 31 15:53:29 many of the ones we have now Jul 31 15:53:37 putting the stylus in and out may have unlocked it Jul 31 15:53:47 galexande: I plan to add http://megatunix.sourceforge.net/ on my neo. Jul 31 15:53:50 little space cost for the CPLD Jul 31 15:53:54 my ipaq hasn't been able to retain a stylus for years :( Jul 31 15:53:55 To tune my car. Jul 31 15:54:18 Writchie: $5 for the smallest ones. Which adds up to $10 on the price. $10 here, $10 there, ... Jul 31 15:54:29 what? $1 Jul 31 15:55:00 galexande: mine too. I just realize the link between the screw and the stylus retention problems :( Jul 31 15:55:13 i'm thinking xilinx like parts Jul 31 15:55:15 PIC or other small CPU sounds quite interesting addition Jul 31 15:55:40 I had interesting experiences with a small 200k gates xilinx fpga in my school Jul 31 15:55:43 maybe AVR Jul 31 15:55:45 =) Jul 31 15:55:46 forget PIC - use arm 7's , we already at least 2 of them Jul 31 15:55:49 it was able to run a 50 MHz softcore cpu Jul 31 15:55:59 actually i heard a ton of cellphones use cpld's to work around hw bugs ;) Jul 31 15:56:07 * aloril wonders if anybody has thought something like second really low power CPU for GTA03, etc..? Jul 31 15:56:30 aloril, but why Jul 31 15:56:38 it's a cellphone not an albatross :) Jul 31 15:56:43 * SpeedEvil is planning on installing one in his GTA01 Jul 31 15:56:55 uit Jul 31 15:56:55 To do accelerometer and touch-sensing Jul 31 15:57:34 SpeedEvil: would you give me your gta? Jul 31 15:57:54 I plan on possbly selling kits. Jul 31 15:57:58 Depending on how things go. Jul 31 15:58:00 SpeedEvil: should have some power figures in a few minutes Jul 31 15:58:20 galexande: for doing stuff that runs OK on slow CPU to save power Jul 31 15:58:29 Writchie: :) Jul 31 15:58:31 selling kits? Jul 31 15:58:45 Of accel + touch-sensor. Jul 31 15:58:52 tms430 would have been a kick-ass way to handle the PM Jul 31 15:59:02 accel? Jul 31 15:59:10 accelerometer Jul 31 15:59:13 sigh... still compiling... I did not touch a single source line today. I spent all day compiling. too bad. Jul 31 15:59:28 squalyl: console development, compile times measured in hours Jul 31 15:59:37 speed, megatunix uses the megasquirt ecu? Jul 31 15:59:42 yes. Jul 31 15:59:48 * SpeedEvil is installing one. Jul 31 15:59:50 * squalyl dreaming of quad-xeon boxes Jul 31 15:59:51 What is the difference between a geek and a nurd? Jul 31 15:59:55 * SpeedEvil 's second car haas a broken ECU. Jul 31 16:00:00 oh like a wii controller Jul 31 16:00:10 geeks has chances to become normal one day, not the nerd. Jul 31 16:00:27 okay Jul 31 16:00:44 :) Jul 31 16:00:45 i thought it was the other way around, geeks are hopeless Jul 31 16:00:46 not sure... :D Just my humble opinion ! Jul 31 16:01:00 ah, it may depends on local legends ! Jul 31 16:01:16 nurd sounds harder Jul 31 16:01:32 I agree Jul 31 16:01:48 SpeedEvil: are you a distributor of the openmoko? Jul 31 16:03:27 OK bye then. End of work day here. See u tomorrow! Jul 31 16:04:27 nerds are younger geeks Jul 31 16:04:44 what do you mean with "geeks"? Jul 31 16:04:46 mid august now?? Jul 31 16:06:05 so richard Stallman is a geek Jul 31 16:06:17 do the neo support realtimeencryption? Jul 31 16:06:24 whos richard stallman? Jul 31 16:06:42 lol Jul 31 16:06:44 oh dear. Jul 31 16:06:54 dernicklosekopf : http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geek Jul 31 16:06:56 dernicklosekopf: you are clearly an MS imposter. Get out. Jul 31 16:06:59 dernicklosekopf: for this question you should really use google:) Jul 31 16:07:22 ewon: do you have a problem with windows users? Jul 31 16:07:32 dernicklosekopf: www.stallman.org Jul 31 16:07:38 mmp: k Jul 31 16:08:08 dernicklosekopf: this person is quite well known in FOSS world, so not knowing it sounds a bit suspiciously:) Jul 31 16:08:09 dernicklosekopf: users? certainly no, I'm one myself. Jul 31 16:08:17 what mmp said. Jul 31 16:09:13 hm, the green dead pixel really sucks on dark backgrounds Jul 31 16:10:17 is a geek a good or a bad word? Jul 31 16:10:29 depends Jul 31 16:10:32 depends on what you make of it Jul 31 16:10:33 "yes" Jul 31 16:10:35 (and your friends ;) ) Jul 31 16:10:40 for computerfreaks it is :) Jul 31 16:10:49 (and if you have no friends, that's nerd-dom, at least where i come from) Jul 31 16:11:18 it's like "queer" ... some people use it as a title, some people use it as an epithet Jul 31 16:12:10 dando: Computer-Geek nennt man eine Person mit stark gesteigertem Interesse an Computern und neuen Medien, hufig mit einer intensiven Beziehung zum Internet. Jul 31 16:12:34 dernicklosekopf: Ahh ja. Jul 31 16:12:36 dando: meinen die damit statt einer beziehung zu menschen, eine zum internet? Jul 31 16:13:00 dernicklosekopf: Ich denke das wird so sein. Jul 31 16:13:16 ce channel devient incompréhensible Jul 31 16:13:24 lol Jul 31 16:13:32 :) Jul 31 16:13:57 but i would say a geek is not a bad word anymore! Jul 31 16:14:07 or a nurd Jul 31 16:14:09 nerd Jul 31 16:14:20 what learn pupils in america or england as second language? Jul 31 16:14:36 spanish i guess Jul 31 16:14:37 i dont know Jul 31 16:14:48 spanisch french german Jul 31 16:15:12 dernicklosekopf: the word 'geek' doesn't neccessarily has to be used in computer-sciences context Jul 31 16:15:28 in some parts of the US spanish is more like the national langage :/ Jul 31 16:15:32 :p Jul 31 16:15:39 if the DDR exist some years longer, i perhaps learnd russia as second language :) Jul 31 16:15:55 dernicklosekopf: what mean of DDR? :) Jul 31 16:15:59 meaning Jul 31 16:16:16 hey, that is world history... Jul 31 16:16:24 A geek is kind of a person who pursues his interest in whatever further than most people would already find mental :p Jul 31 16:16:29 it calls: Deutsch Demokratische Republik Jul 31 16:16:32 * mmp had Dance Dance Revolution in his mind :) Jul 31 16:16:37 == German Democratic Republic Jul 31 16:16:40 mmp: loool Jul 31 16:16:58 deutschland!! Jul 31 16:17:01 dernicklosekopf: well, as I said, it has more meanings:) Jul 31 16:17:17 Kheldar: :) Jul 31 16:17:20 so, i guess the moral of the story is that i will never receive my phone Jul 31 16:17:42 quite sad story, though... Jul 31 16:17:42 mmp: mhm i think when i speak from russia, germany and *some years later* that you know what i mean ^^ Jul 31 16:18:31 dernicklosekopf: :) Well, now I know, just that I don't usually think about world history in first place. Jul 31 16:18:52 english is hard to write! The spoke english is drifting of the writen english. More than every other language. The witen english is about in the year 1400 Jul 31 16:19:01 spoke = spoken Jul 31 16:19:23 mmp: mhm yes, its relative... Jul 31 16:19:30 dando: there are more difficult languages; I think english is good consensus for this:) Jul 31 16:19:31 zecke: I'm not able to reproduce the rssreader problem here. :( Jul 31 16:19:42 but, sorry for OT:) Jul 31 16:20:08 stefan_schmidt: weird, somehow smells like a bitbake issue, but 1.6.x hasn't changed in a while :) Jul 31 16:20:09 english is not hard for you, because it has german and roman roots Jul 31 16:20:18 i have more problems with the english grammar as soon as other parts of this language... Jul 31 16:20:22 this is #openmoko, not #world :) Jul 31 16:20:22 @ mmp Jul 31 16:20:27 stefan_schmidt: my bet would be the time of the server is bad, as we do a checkout by day Jul 31 16:21:08 zecke: Could be. Jul 31 16:21:20 mmp: were peoples, peoples like to small talk Jul 31 16:21:21 zecke: Let me see if if I find a way into it. :) Jul 31 16:21:36 I have an example for this: knife the k was spoken 1800. It isnt spoken anymore but still writes itself with a k Jul 31 16:21:38 dernicklosekopf: yes, but we should not disturb ongoing work here:) Jul 31 16:22:02 /join #chitchat, who wants :) Jul 31 16:22:13 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[FAQ/fr]] [[Disassembling_Neo1973]] [[Disassembling_Neo1973/de]] [[Talk:Disassembling_Neo1973/de]] [[User:Jas]] [[Shipping_Notes]] [[Talk:Dfu-util]] [[P1_Owners]] [[Talk:Wishlist:Location_based_reminders]] [[Media_Content]] [[Wifidog_Hotspot_Finder]] and other changes Jul 31 16:22:16 I think it is here for that purpose:) Jul 31 16:22:38 zecke: ah, it's on the same as people. I have an account there. Tue Jul 31 18:25:58 CEST 2007 Jul 31 16:22:44 mmp: and i like to talk about world-things with intelligent nerds :) Jul 31 16:22:45 zecke: looks sane Jul 31 16:23:01 dernicklosekopf: :) Jul 31 16:23:08 dando: my mother tongue is from slavic language family:) Jul 31 16:23:45 stefan_schmidt: the only thing you could do, is throw away your tarball and svn tree of the rssreader and try again Jul 31 16:23:46 i gues slavic has german roots too Jul 31 16:23:48 mmp: want to translate 100 lines of i8n text for me? :) Jul 31 16:23:53 but im not sure Jul 31 16:24:03 * LetoTo needs translators for pidgin-otr :) Jul 31 16:24:26 zecke: OK, I try this first and do a complete rebuild over night Jul 31 16:25:10 LetoTo: point me to .po file:) Jul 31 16:26:12 stefan_schmidt: don't do the rebuild, if the other thing fails I will take a look at buildhost-old :) Jul 31 16:26:23 zecke: ha, it fails. :) Jul 31 16:26:39 zecke: It checkouts rev 2520 Jul 31 16:26:48 mmp: looked it up in wikipedia. it has indogerman roots Jul 31 16:27:04 the german government plans to save the data where a gsm mobile-phone send informations to a station, can i avoid this perhaps with the neo1973? Jul 31 16:27:13 http://otr.cypherpunks.ca/pidgin-otr.pot Jul 31 16:27:23 dern - if it's tower-side nope Jul 31 16:27:24 dernicklosekopf: No Jul 31 16:27:29 they plan to save this data for over 6 months... Jul 31 16:27:34 zecke: That is way to new for the SRCDATE. Jul 31 16:27:41 at least it *is* tower-side and not some sort of encrypted sim *glares at at&t* Jul 31 16:27:48 dernicklosekopf: no Jul 31 16:27:48 zecke: Your commit one day later was 2386 Jul 31 16:28:02 hi Jul 31 16:28:04 dernicklosekopf: send data over the network, they can track it. Live with it or don't use a mobile. Jul 31 16:28:10 stefan_schmidt: two issues: bitbake bug (but I would want to know why it shows now) Jul 31 16:28:11 what is the current discussion topic Jul 31 16:28:12 and perhaps with another number, that dont retrace to me, or some little tricks? Jul 31 16:28:22 No, you can't do that. Jul 31 16:28:23 stefan_schmidt: do a svn log by date and check which rev is there Jul 31 16:28:34 SpeedEvil: i dont want that the government save this data... Jul 31 16:28:49 zecke: It uses the set SRCDATE at least in the name openmoko-rssreader-0.0.1+svn20070722-r1 but uses a newer svn rev Jul 31 16:28:49 dernicklosekopf: So don't use a mobile. And they can't. Jul 31 16:28:51 they can see where i was, what i have done ect.... Jul 31 16:28:52 U can vote for another goverment Jul 31 16:29:04 dando: hahahaha npd, or what? Jul 31 16:29:08 thats the thnig to do Jul 31 16:29:15 Pirate Party! Jul 31 16:29:18 any news on the new proc speed for october Jul 31 16:29:26 docdoc: 400 IIRC. Jul 31 16:29:27 dernicklosekopf: fdp gr?nen Jul 31 16:29:34 more than you'll need, less than you'd like. Jul 31 16:29:43 samsung proc Jul 31 16:29:48 dando: appd Jul 31 16:29:49 someone who stopps scheuble Jul 31 16:30:06 dando: appd ;) Jul 31 16:30:19 samsung arm yes? Jul 31 16:30:33 dernicklosekopf: appd ? Jul 31 16:30:41 what is the resolution of the screen? What does mean QVGA? Jul 31 16:30:54 docdoc: see wiki Jul 31 16:30:59 dando: anarchistische pogo partei ;) Jul 31 16:31:01 docdoc: and use google Jul 31 16:31:09 dando: i dont really know the *A* but its like antifaschichstische pogopartei deutschland Jul 31 16:31:36 spliffy; yes your right :) Jul 31 16:31:55 Im notfall die Partei Bibelterue christen ! Jul 31 16:32:05 mickeyl: when is the neo going to do dvb-t(h)? Jul 31 16:32:29 LetoTo: pm Jul 31 16:32:41 zecke: I get the feeling mickeyl svn moves have broken it. Jul 31 16:32:58 dando: not better than npd... Jul 31 16:33:00 mmp: ohh stupid freenode. let me identify Jul 31 16:33:07 LetoTo: np:) Jul 31 16:33:09 zecke: It worked before and I see nothing fishy in the logs besides that Jul 31 16:33:20 stefan_schmidt: then svn would be pretty crappy, oh wait it is :) Jul 31 16:33:25 dernicklosekopf: i guess so too Jul 31 16:34:03 zek: a long time Jul 31 16:34:07 zecke: More the combination of svn, bitbake and perhaps fishy changes. :) Jul 31 16:34:09 zec: a long time Jul 31 16:34:10 dando: you need to see at youtube what the npd does at the landtag at sachsen anhalt... Jul 31 16:34:11 stefan_schmidt: start bitbake with -D, -DD or -DDD and check how it is executing svn (or use strace -fF and filter for exec) Jul 31 16:34:42 dernicklosekopf: why ? Jul 31 16:34:46 zecke: It's way behind wishlists for even stuff like 3G. Expect it several models down the line. Jul 31 16:34:47 zecke: Yeah, I'll do this in some minutes. Just need to finish something else Jul 31 16:34:47 dando: that isnt a party, thats a handfull of idiots... Jul 31 16:34:49 zecke: 2009 Jul 31 16:35:45 i wonder how closed the dvb-h is? Jul 31 16:35:58 guaqua: there are chipsets available. Jul 31 16:36:09 zecke: 2009 - if OM takes off. Jul 31 16:36:20 dernicklosekopf, scheuble kommt mir aber auch langsam vor wie ein altnazi mit seinem überwachungswahn ;) Jul 31 16:36:26 just recompress dvb-t at home and stream it to the cell via 3g (when available) ;) Jul 31 16:36:33 dando: originally they was 12 peoples at the parlament from the npd, one was kicked because they had child-porns, 3 left voluntary, and 2 was kicked by the own party Jul 31 16:36:44 SpeedEvil: s/if/when/ :D Jul 31 16:37:01 guaqua: not closed at all. it is the same modulation as with dvb-t (+4k fft) and then it is just IP Jul 31 16:37:14 mickeyl: True - I mean - if it takes off in the mobile market. Jul 31 16:37:22 kosake: "wenn ich scheuble sehe, frage ich mich wie man arschloch noch steigern kann" Jul 31 16:37:24 :) Jul 31 16:37:24 I _hope_ it will. Jul 31 16:37:53 mickeyl: you really need ellen as usability expert Jul 31 16:38:30 I personally want FM. Jul 31 16:38:30 zecke: yes. will she be at camp? Jul 31 16:38:38 That's small, and very cheap to add. Jul 31 16:39:05 dando: and the *parteivorsitzende* (dont know the english word) has said in a intern letter, that the members of the parlement selected by random... Jul 31 16:39:08 I'd like radio scanner :-) Jul 31 16:39:09 some 6*6mm of boardspace and $5 cost Jul 31 16:39:43 i cant understand how this party got over 7% voices... Jul 31 16:40:19 mickeyl: Do you know what the ROM in the SoC does? I note by teh partcode that it's 48K Jul 31 16:43:03 SpeedEvil: 1st test with fully charged neo draws 260ma for 1.3 watts ugh! Jul 31 16:43:12 * SpeedEvil sings "My neo flies over the ocean. My neo flies over the sea!" Jul 31 16:43:26 Ballpark expected. Jul 31 16:43:37 With everything on. Jul 31 16:43:37 i guess there is zero PM at this point Jul 31 16:43:42 Not zero. Jul 31 16:43:49 on and off 2 modes Jul 31 16:43:49 The backlight and other stuff turns off. Jul 31 16:44:35 gms radio is off I think Jul 31 16:44:44 Writchie: you're sure it's not charging the battery? Jul 31 16:45:01 no because I don't trust the charger circuit actually works right Jul 31 16:45:10 it's been on 24 hours continuosly Jul 31 16:45:22 i interrupted it just to install the probe cable Jul 31 16:45:24 i hope nobody's battery explodes... Jul 31 16:45:44 Well - when not on a call - the GSM modem should use only 30mW or so on average. Maybe 10mW Jul 31 16:45:55 that's what I figure. Jul 31 16:46:03 50mw tops Jul 31 16:46:05 CTARGET for the neo1973 would be arm-unknown-linux-gnu ? Jul 31 16:46:18 are peoples in this channel who responsible for the production? Jul 31 16:46:31 i'm more interested in gprs consumption with always active connection Jul 31 16:46:48 hold the phone Jul 31 16:47:03 190ma with backlight off Jul 31 16:47:04 ahh! shipment 2 is scheduled for mid-aug! Jul 31 16:47:07 dernicklosekopf: very occasionally. Jul 31 16:47:20 ferric: that seems to be the next 500 though. Jul 31 16:47:30 Which still leaves a lot of people in the cold. Jul 31 16:47:31 .95 watts Jul 31 16:47:33 SpeedEvil: yes, which would hopefully include mine. Jul 31 16:47:35 SpeedEvil: oh? Jul 31 16:47:56 At least - the next batch hasn't been mentioned. Jul 31 16:48:18 dando: let es make open source politics :) Jul 31 16:48:22 Hmm - so that's slightly lower than the earlier figure for backlight. Jul 31 16:48:33 need a strap on pack of 4 2500mahr cells Jul 31 16:48:58 SpeedEvil: i'm sure they're preparing for it, but the lack of sales transparency is troubling. Jul 31 16:49:04 Indeed. Jul 31 16:49:26 I want to know if I can say to developish friends 'yes, you can buy one now'. Jul 31 16:49:35 And not have them delayed several weeks. Jul 31 16:50:15 Shipment 2 is the second 500, and is mid-august??? So for those of us who are probably in the second 1000.... (let me break out my calculator, er calendar...) Jul 31 16:50:34 That hasn't quite been confirmed. Jul 31 16:50:39 Basically. Jul 31 16:50:54 well, demand forecasting is tough Jul 31 16:50:55 The number of shipments in P1_Owners looks pretty much bang on for 500 Jul 31 16:51:18 There was another 500 from the first batch. Jul 31 16:51:40 Batch 1: mfg May, testing in June, delivery in July and August. Assuming Batch 2 will be manufactured in August, that's October and November for delivery. Jul 31 16:51:43 *the gravity is overvalued, we dont need it, how we see it in the outer space* Jul 31 16:52:03 It's not impossible that if they pulled the trigger on July 11 or so, that the mid-august batch could be the first 500, and a new batch Jul 31 16:52:23 The second 500 Jul 31 16:52:32 concidering they've got customers lined up arround the virtual block.. Jul 31 16:54:02 Yes, but my point was that if they will be able to meet the demand in the next 6 weeks, someone should say so. The closer the ship date gets to the next generation "rumored" date, the more customers will leave the line and wait. Jul 31 16:54:15 stefan_schmidt: but it is rev 2520 according to the svn log Jul 31 16:54:26 stefan_schmidt: LC_ALL=C svn log -r {20070722}:1 http://svn.openmoko.org | less Jul 31 16:54:30 SpeedEvil: actually i have no idea. i never knew it has a ROM :) Jul 31 16:54:32 im going to play a round solitaire... Jul 31 16:54:33 If I have to wait until October, why not wait for G2? Jul 31 16:55:24 mickeyl: stefan_schmidt : you managed to mess up svn :) Jul 31 16:55:39 mickeyl: stefan_schmidt : revisions are linear dates are not increasing :) Jul 31 16:55:58 * mwester notes that the credit card he gave FIC has an expiration date of September... Jul 31 16:56:00 zecke: bummer. what's the actual problem? Jul 31 16:56:20 mickeyl: r2406 is from 2007-07-27 Jul 31 16:56:29 mickeyl: r2407 is from 2007-06-27 Jul 31 16:56:43 mickeyl: checking out by date stops at 2520 :) Jul 31 16:57:03 mickeyl: a) clock skew b) messing with svnadmin instead of using git :) Jul 31 16:57:28 zecke: hmm. can we ignore it? Jul 31 16:57:37 or how can we fix? Jul 31 16:57:38 mwester: maybe that's the plan Jul 31 16:57:50 mwester: yeah, me too Jul 31 16:57:52 mickeyl: check out rssreader by revision Jul 31 16:58:02 mickeyl: switch to git :) Jul 31 16:58:02 mwester: build P1 for 1000 devs only, get the community to fix the software and hardware issues and then build p2 Jul 31 16:58:05 :) Jul 31 16:58:42 mickeyl: have you used svnadmin load to import the ohand changes? Jul 31 16:58:43 But they already did that with P0 -- wasn't that how P0 was presented? Jul 31 16:58:58 zecke: i didn't do it. LaF0rge did Jul 31 16:59:07 zecke: but i think so. they sent us an svndump Jul 31 16:59:37 mwester: yeah, look at the state of the software right now. :) clearly P0 achieved lower-level software/hardware fixes, but more work is needed. Jul 31 16:59:47 mickeyl: increasing dates is a invariant of svn :} Jul 31 17:03:53 SpeedEvil: power tests interrupted by 50 MegaVolt local disturbance Jul 31 17:05:13 ouch Jul 31 17:05:17 zecke: LaF0rge ? Jul 31 17:05:20 * mickeyl bbiab Jul 31 17:05:30 nbd: ping Jul 31 17:05:36 prpplague: pong Jul 31 17:07:20 * aloril wonders that if you order Neo1973, will it be more than month before you receive it? (for first 500 orders it was/is almost month) Jul 31 17:07:27 should someone remove the CIMI number listed in ligsmd-0.1+svnnow-r0_0_2381/gsm/logs/screenlog.0 ? Jul 31 17:11:10 * aloril thinks things will speed up as time goes Jul 31 17:11:19 nbd: i white wired an external interrupt to the sddat1 line Jul 31 17:11:20 aloril: yes, but not anytime soon Jul 31 17:11:38 nbd: using that as the sdio interrupt, it works great Jul 31 17:11:47 nbd: the latency is around 10ms Jul 31 17:11:58 nbd: which is much better than i had expected Jul 31 17:12:18 nbd: the thruput on my code is still alot lower than expected Jul 31 17:12:38 nbd: around 1024kbps Jul 31 17:12:48 nbd: which is still better than most sdio wifi cards Jul 31 17:13:00 nbd: but much lower than i had hoped Jul 31 17:13:56 but this is in 1bit mode, right? Jul 31 17:27:01 nbd: yea, what i'm doing for 4-bit mode is right before the 4-bit data transfers is disable the irq and re-enable after the 4 bit transfer is complete Jul 31 17:37:04 hello Jul 31 17:38:00 SpeedEvil: has gllin timeouts? Jul 31 17:38:05 Buenas Jul 31 17:40:18 ? Jul 31 17:42:02 zecke: eeeh, that is really ugly Jul 31 17:43:26 SpeedEvil: i thought, that we could delay the answers from the HH and see how the nmea is effectet Jul 31 17:44:43 zecke: It really was the svn dump import from ohand. Jul 31 17:45:12 zecke: That was the first one we got from the dump. :( Jul 31 17:46:12 * stefan_schmidt thinks about the different solutions Jul 31 17:47:47 zecke: a) Using 2007-06-26 of the reader easy one) b) fix webkit Jul 31 17:48:26 zecke: The problem with date<->rev should be go away with RP proposal for 1.8, right? Jul 31 17:49:02 zecke: I see not much sense in hacking around in the overlay for long as it will be deprecated in some days. Jul 31 17:50:35 zecke: I set the SRCDATE to 2007-06-26 for the overlay and take a look at webkit in OE for a proper longtime fix Jul 31 17:50:48 zecke: Anything against this old date for your code? :) Jul 31 17:51:29 not relly Jul 31 17:52:34 zecke: ok, I test and commit. Jul 31 17:52:48 ...once parsing is done... Jul 31 17:56:05 ls Jul 31 17:56:26 classes conf contrib COPYING.MIT files MAINTAINERS _MTN packages README removal.txt site Jul 31 17:56:31 heh Jul 31 17:56:52 df -m Jul 31 17:56:55 ;) Jul 31 17:56:57 SpeedEvil: was just an idea i had... Jul 31 17:57:15 zecke: btw, where to do life now? Jul 31 17:57:22 zecke: Own flat, WG? Jul 31 17:57:45 zecke: nice try :-) Jul 31 17:58:24 alphaone: Bus ready for the camp? Jul 31 17:58:45 stefan_schmidt: own flat. Nobody likes us! Jul 31 17:58:55 zecke: us? Jul 31 17:59:08 stefan_schmidt: I know nobody likes you :) Jul 31 17:59:11 stefan_schmidt: Of course. Just have to get the stuff down there :-) Jul 31 17:59:19 zecke: My GF do :) Jul 31 17:59:27 alphaone: heh Jul 31 17:59:27 lol Jul 31 17:59:44 stefan_schmidt: well, that is like your mother. She is likely to like you as well Jul 31 18:00:38 zecke: heh Jul 31 18:01:13 zecke: You're a crazy guy sometimes. :) Jul 31 18:01:32 * alphaone .oO(Hmm, should I take sides?...) Jul 31 18:01:50 * alphaone .oO(Better not. Enough to do already :-)) Jul 31 18:02:11 stefan he is sarcastic Jul 31 18:02:13 alphaone: Who cares about your opinion? *caught* ;) Jul 31 18:02:14 Ah, what the hell. /me likes stefan_schmidt Jul 31 18:02:22 stefan_schmidt: Righto Jul 31 18:02:38 stefan but thats okay for a disabled moron *g* Jul 31 18:02:41 That was an "eigentor", I would think. :-) Jul 31 18:02:43 * stefan_schmidt loves you all :) Jul 31 18:03:11 Wow, what's gotten you all so worked up about each other?! Jul 31 18:03:30 alphaone dont oversee the fun Jul 31 18:03:56 woglinde: I don't. Usually I'm the first to bash stefan_schmidt. :-) Jul 31 18:04:05 *g* Jul 31 18:04:06 heh Jul 31 18:04:26 bashing with some cube? Jul 31 18:04:49 alphaone: Why oh why did I show you all the fun of bashing people Jul 31 18:05:10 alphaone: Before you had known me you were a nice guy... Jul 31 18:05:20 lol Jul 31 18:05:38 stefan_schmidt: Before I knew you people were nice to me when I was nice to them. Jul 31 18:06:00 good point Jul 31 18:06:27 * zecke likes stefan_schmidt as well Jul 31 18:08:18 classes conf contrib COPYING.MIT files MAINTAINERS _MTN packages README removal.txt site Jul 31 18:08:18 heh Jul 31 18:08:18 *** no_mind_ (n=orion@59.176.111.177) has joined channel #openmoko Jul 31 18:08:18 *** mokobot (n=ewanm89@host86-152-207-255.range86-152.btcentralplus.com) has joined channel #openmoko Jul 31 18:08:18 df -m Jul 31 18:08:19 ;) Jul 31 18:08:21 crap Jul 31 18:08:23 sorry Jul 31 18:08:29 woglinde: I'm not disabled, just special :) Jul 31 18:08:30 dropped my mouse and caught it badly Jul 31 18:08:40 noiddd: lol Jul 31 18:09:18 alphaone - What did stefan_schmidt do to you? ;o) Jul 31 18:09:39 alphaone: You are not allowed to tell. Jul 31 18:09:49 alphaone: I'll kiil your pony. Jul 31 18:09:51 kill Jul 31 18:10:03 alphaone has a pony? Jul 31 18:10:06 man, looks like i sure missed something fun Jul 31 18:11:57 openmoko: 03stefan * r2588 10/trunk/oe/conf/distro/include/preferred-openmoko-versions.inc: Jul 31 18:11:57 openmoko: * Fix regression of rssreader webkit dependency. (#671) Jul 31 18:11:57 openmoko: Context: Due to the o-hand svndump import we have non-linear date <->svnrev Jul 31 18:11:57 openmoko: matching. r2406 is from 2007-07-27 and r2407 is from 2007-06-27. Jul 31 18:11:57 openmoko: This quck hack sets the date to 20070626 to work around it. Real fix will come Jul 31 18:11:57 openmoko: in OE.dev to have a working webkit and allow rss-reader to depend on it. Jul 31 18:12:49 everyone has a pony of some kind Jul 31 18:12:50 is there any news when those above 2540 will get a phone? Jul 31 18:13:00 its the Lore Jul 31 18:13:16 Elrond: he has an last.fm acount. And everybody with such an account got a pony Jul 31 18:13:52 alphaone - Go and hide your pony from stefan_schmidt ;) Jul 31 18:16:16 I remember having read that the 800 pound gorilla FIC can produce 100.000 phones per month.... Jul 31 18:16:29 ...but he seems not in the right mood ;( Jul 31 18:16:51 i think that's once the design cycle is stabilized Jul 31 18:17:35 gamin - Well, if you gonna request 1e6 phones, they'll wake up and produce them in a month for you. ;-) Jul 31 18:17:36 if nokia came to them and said "here's the schematics, the blueprints and the software load, make us a bunch" and no engineering work was required, the manufacturing would fall into place quite quickly Jul 31 18:17:58 Elrond: okay I'll do that Jul 31 18:18:15 ps, you'll need to give them a retainer Jul 31 18:18:24 gamin - Well, they'll probably first ask, if you could pay it, of course. ;-) Jul 31 18:18:27 let's hope they don't try to charge my credit card before they have made them ;) Jul 31 18:18:27 say... 1% of 1e6 phones Jul 31 18:18:47 or at least enough to cover the tool costs Jul 31 18:19:08 gamin: There are already a second and third batch of phones in progress. Problem is more the whole shipping process Jul 31 18:19:24 Right. Jul 31 18:19:35 thanks stefan_schmidt, that sounds very positive! Jul 31 18:19:36 Remember: They have no idea of delevering phones to single persons. Jul 31 18:19:52 If you ask for 1e6 phones, they'll know how to deliver them to you. ;-) Jul 31 18:20:00 :) Jul 31 18:20:05 how come all the buttons are so tiny? Jul 31 18:20:19 dsilva - You mean the on-screen ones? Jul 31 18:20:23 yeah Jul 31 18:20:28 dsilva - And which of the on-screen ones? Jul 31 18:20:36 gamin: At least we got more orders then we hoped. With the announcement from GTA02 in mind :) Jul 31 18:20:37 The buttons of the dialer are pretty okay. Jul 31 18:20:46 yeah, the dialer is ok Jul 31 18:20:55 the buttons in the corner and the menus are tiny Jul 31 18:21:01 you have to use your nail or something Jul 31 18:21:15 stefan_schmidt, so no probs with suppliers, i.e. of the screens? Jul 31 18:21:21 dsilva - There's a full new UI redesign in the workings. Things already got commited for it. Jul 31 18:21:27 dsilva: Look forward the saner GUI from OM-2007.2. Images will eb available the next days. Jul 31 18:21:28 oh cool Jul 31 18:21:51 dsilva: I have it in front of me. Nice big buttons for finger usage. :) Jul 31 18:21:51 dsilva - They finally found out about the missing stylus holder. ;o) Jul 31 18:21:52 Elrond: any screenshots? Jul 31 18:21:53 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Trademark_Policy]] [[P1_Owners]] [[OpenMoko_Local_Groups:_Bogota]] [[User:Nelsoneci]] [[Talk:Wishlist:Location_based_reminders]] [[OpenMoko_Local_Groups]] [[Nelsoneci]] [[UI_Improvements]] Jul 31 18:22:11 gamin - I did not have my digicam at the meeting. :-| Jul 31 18:22:12 Elrond: heh, what's a stylus? ;) Jul 31 18:22:19 so the iphone has some effect on the moko ui... Jul 31 18:22:32 gamin: Not really. Not even seen the GUI Jul 31 18:22:39 like javafx? http://psynixis.fileburst.com/blog/JavaFXMobilevsiPhone.jpg Jul 31 18:22:41 Oh. Jul 31 18:22:54 They applied brain washing to stefan... Interesting... ;o) Jul 31 18:23:17 Elrond: ....brain....washed....huh....? Jul 31 18:23:30 stefan.brain.wash(iphone.propaganda.fetch()) Jul 31 18:23:45 dsilva: Let you surprise Jul 31 18:23:53 :) Jul 31 18:23:58 stefan_schmidt - stylus.... it's that thing you also sent to me... and as you don't know any more about styli... they have brain washed you. ;o) Jul 31 18:24:08 guaqua: No chance :) Jul 31 18:24:16 brb Jul 31 18:24:24 stefan_schmidt: so probably in the next four weeks there will be another 1000 phones? Jul 31 18:24:45 4 weeks times 2 pi. ;o) Jul 31 18:25:06 xmas? eeek! Jul 31 18:25:07 (in our work group, all times get multiplied implicititly and explicitly by 2pi. ;o) ) Jul 31 18:25:20 gamin: Not sure about the exact date and number but it should match round about Jul 31 18:25:38 +http://psynixis.fileburst.com/blog/JavaFXMobilevsiPhone.jpg Jul 31 18:25:42 <-- is making fun today. ;-) Jul 31 18:25:44 +http://psynixis.fileburst.com/blog/JavaFXMobilevsiPhone.jpg Jul 31 18:25:45 +http://psynixis.fileburst.com/blog/JavaFXMobilevsiPhone.jpg Jul 31 18:25:49 whoops Jul 31 18:25:50 damn putty Jul 31 18:26:09 <- me too Jul 31 18:26:41 Time for two simpson episodes and working hard on OM afterwards. later Jul 31 18:26:59 c ya stefan keep up the killer work! Jul 31 18:27:25 BryceLeo|Work: Do you have a pony btw? ;) Jul 31 18:27:44 lol actually yes an off the track standardbred Jul 31 18:27:57 not a pony actually, but a full grown horse Jul 31 18:28:03 :P Jul 31 18:28:09 Huh. Fun. Jul 31 18:28:24 BryceLeo|Work - Keep it secure from stefan. He does mad things to ponies. ;o)) Jul 31 18:29:02 BryceLeo|Work: funny photo. Jul 31 18:30:26 i was just copying and pasting the link from another message Jul 31 18:30:56 Elrond, i'll be sure do to that! Jul 31 18:38:08 SpeedEvil: ping Jul 31 18:43:35 awww, second batch ships mid august Jul 31 18:43:37 the pain Jul 31 18:53:47 is there a note on the list? Jul 31 18:54:10 hhf423: ships, as in ships from CA, or ships from the factory? Jul 31 18:55:30 probably from US Jul 31 18:55:31 http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2007-July/008603.html Jul 31 18:55:45 will openmoko stay with gtk 2.6 for OM-2007.2? Jul 31 18:57:52 Hum... Sending firefox via X11 to the Neo is... well... strange. Jul 31 18:58:09 Elrond: via bluetooth net? :) Jul 31 18:58:11 rschuster probably now, now that there's hw graphics accelleration it would make sense to go to 2.10 and use cairo Jul 31 18:58:22 mmp - No, via usbnet. Jul 31 19:06:39 google maps is nearly useless at 640x480 (landscape neo). The "small map at the right bottom" takes takes half the space of the whole map. All the rest is cluttered up with those google crap. Jul 31 19:07:22 isn't there a google maps API or something? Jul 31 19:07:49 I think, there is. But I'm just using maps.google.com in firrefox. ;) Jul 31 19:08:48 Elrond: the map itself especially with overlays may be useful Jul 31 19:09:26 Writchie - Yep. But as no caching is allowed, you'd need to be online to use it. Jul 31 19:09:33 ture Jul 31 19:09:35 true Jul 31 19:09:39 no caching? Jul 31 19:09:50 legally allowed that is Jul 31 19:10:06 :-( I really don't want to see bill for GPRS traffic... Jul 31 19:10:25 that's for sure if do you not have unlimited plan Jul 31 19:10:41 Nice idea, but not for student. :) Jul 31 19:10:51 $20 /month Jul 31 19:10:55 on top of voice Jul 31 19:11:15 gprs/utms flatrate is here sold for 24 euros Jul 31 19:11:23 but voip is forbidden Jul 31 19:11:31 voip won't work over gprs Jul 31 19:11:32 Writchie: for a man who monthly calls less than 10 minutes? :) Jul 31 19:11:52 writchie hm Jul 31 19:11:58 GPRS flatrate is not an option here Jul 31 19:12:14 VoIP forbidden? I thought these things were resolved long time ago... . Jul 31 19:12:36 its only a packete contract Jul 31 19:12:42 without phonecalls Jul 31 19:12:46 packet Jul 31 19:12:55 (at least here there was decision that VoIP is transfer of data) Jul 31 19:17:37 was the first 500 that went out based on the first 500 orders received, or the first 500 destinations that could be shipped to? Jul 31 19:19:01 rschuster: no. we are going 2.10. Jul 31 19:19:41 re mickeyl Jul 31 19:24:36 * mokobot hands ScaredyCat Jason1's neo Jul 31 19:25:05 *g* Jul 31 19:28:36 hello all Jul 31 19:29:15 anyone have issues with make run-qemu not showing the images of the buttons? Jul 31 19:32:13 rschuster: #662 is from you? All the endieness changes you need are in openocd from rev178, right? OE.dev uses 184 so that should be fine after the switch. Jul 31 19:32:48 rschuster: If you like to to some testing and be prepared for the switch you can have a look at: http://www.openembedded.org/wiki/GettingStarted Jul 31 19:32:59 s/to to/to do/ Jul 31 19:32:59 stefan_schmidt meant: rschuster: If you like to do some testing and be prepared for the switch you can have a look at: http://www.openembedded.org/wiki/GettingStarted Jul 31 19:34:37 zerothcloned there are buttons? Jul 31 19:35:21 btw is anyone already using the german provider "base" with gprs on gta01? Jul 31 19:35:36 zeroth, that just happend to me last night, i'm assuming it's getting redone and will be re-committed soon Jul 31 19:35:51 ah, okay, was just askin' Jul 31 19:36:36 yeah, i'm not at home right now so i can't re-update and pull Jul 31 19:37:19 anyway i must be off, time to head out, see SWMNBN (she who must not be named) and get working Jul 31 19:37:20 bye all Jul 31 19:38:24 pH5 - BTW: NooN missed you the last days. ;-) Jul 31 19:39:50 hey cesarb. How're you? Jul 31 19:46:38 Elrond: search for the firefox extension 'fullmap' Jul 31 19:48:23 Also - there is on the middle of the left bar a little thing you can click to make the left bar go away Jul 31 19:49:51 https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/4026 Jul 31 19:50:34 US FCC votes new 700 MHz to permit open access, i.e. choice of equipments, on new spectrum. Jul 31 19:51:12 waiting for text of order for more complete analysis. Jul 31 19:51:33 zecke? Jul 31 19:54:05 SpeedEvil: 260 ma (from 5V USB) backlight on Jul 31 19:54:10 yes? Jul 31 19:54:15 190 ma backlight off Jul 31 19:54:26 350ma bl on playing mp3 Jul 31 19:54:54 can you have a look on 671 again, the autobuilder filed again this bug Jul 31 19:55:01 280ma mp3 backlight off Jul 31 19:55:18 I will update the wiki Jul 31 19:55:30 Zennor: Because it tried the old SRCDATE again Jul 31 19:55:47 zecke: The autobuilder builds from scratch each night, right? Jul 31 19:55:50 hm, I'm getting I/O errors when I copy stuff over to the microsd by scp Jul 31 19:55:53 mp3 is of course sensitive to level of the material. Jul 31 19:56:14 Zennor: You have the problem on your local build? Jul 31 19:56:24 trying a slowed down transfer... anyone else having i/o errors with heavy microsd load? Jul 31 19:56:41 stefan_schmidt: yes Jul 31 19:56:48 Writchie: Hmm Jul 31 19:57:15 zecke: That means it should shout up tomorrow Jul 31 19:57:20 Writchie: what's the difference between 'idle' and md5sum /dev/zero Jul 31 19:57:29 best mp3 mode probably BT to BT stereo headset Jul 31 19:57:32 Writchie: or something that uses 100% CPU Jul 31 19:57:33 stefan_schmidt: well, the nightly build builds nighthly :) Jul 31 19:57:39 stefan_schmidt: the incremental does not Jul 31 19:57:44 Please don't let this man torture me. Jul 31 19:57:57 Writchie: I suspect actually headphones may be 'cheapest'. Jul 31 19:57:59 no md5 sum - using scp transfer of file not much affect, about 10ma Jul 31 19:58:01 * ZerothCloned chuckles #mokobot Jul 31 19:58:09 zecke: ah, two different builds not one with two modes Jul 31 19:58:13 Writchie: anything that uses 100% CPU Jul 31 19:58:37 its both the CPU and the SDRAM bandwidth. Jul 31 19:58:52 need something to test both at same time. Jul 31 19:58:58 Does anyone know if the wifi in gta02 will be able to do more than unencrypted connections? Jul 31 19:59:05 stefan_schmidt: hi. yes #662 is from me Jul 31 19:59:06 max out the SDRAM and the CPU without caching Jul 31 19:59:39 but this is worst case, scp and mp3 are pretty RW Jul 31 20:00:21 will try gsm radio next Jul 31 20:00:42 may need a better DVM Jul 31 20:00:56 rschuster: And 184 should be fine for your ARCH? Jul 31 20:01:49 stefan_schmidt: yep. the fix was committed for 178 Jul 31 20:02:25 Elrond: plus - for maps - the virtual screen is what you want prolly Jul 31 20:02:36 mp3 to speaker battery life 3 hours Jul 31 20:02:45 stefan_schmidt: hmm doesn't work with src-date set to now... did I have to remove some old files? Jul 31 20:02:45 rschuster: ok, so it should be fine once we drop the overlay. If you like you can already test Jul 31 20:02:50 Writchie: you really want both - internal C Jul 31 20:02:58 PU - and max bandwidth Jul 31 20:03:03 seperately Jul 31 20:03:24 Writchie: is that with backscreen off? Jul 31 20:03:28 yes Jul 31 20:03:30 Zennor: Why would you like set it to now? Last svn rev have set it to 20070626. That should fix it for now. Jul 31 20:03:33 Ow. Jul 31 20:03:34 pretty low :) Jul 31 20:03:53 i've got USB running for the link. Jul 31 20:04:08 RW you would shut this off Jul 31 20:04:08 USB device is claimed to be really cheap. Jul 31 20:04:15 stefan_schmidt: ok was set to 20070622 before, so that should the solution Jul 31 20:04:33 what does 'top' show - there aren't any background stuff using lots of CPU? Jul 31 20:04:38 48mhz clock - i'll believe it when i see it. Jul 31 20:04:55 Zennor2: Yeah, was some ugly stuff with revs and dates after a svn dump merge Jul 31 20:05:03 Zennor2: Sorry for this. Jul 31 20:05:05 believe what? Jul 31 20:05:14 lo power on usb device Jul 31 20:05:34 stefan_schmidt: no problem ;) was a bit confusing if you try to compile OM for the first time^^ Jul 31 20:05:38 It claims to be some 10mW IIRC Jul 31 20:05:41 unless 50mw is lo power Jul 31 20:05:59 stefan_schmidt: dropping the overlay means openmoko does all build-related changes in OE then? Jul 31 20:06:05 Zennor2: Jup, takes some time to understand the stuff. Jul 31 20:06:12 rschuster: exactly Jul 31 20:06:24 actually, device much better than host Jul 31 20:06:32 not much. Jul 31 20:06:42 in terms of the global power budget Jul 31 20:08:24 SpeedEvil - "virtual screen"? Jul 31 20:08:52 Elrond: the hardware supports virtual screen larger than visual Jul 31 20:09:26 Elrond: also - the fullmap extension - if you put it fullscreen in FF, with no toolbars, you get about 630*430 map Jul 31 20:10:18 mjr - I get IO errors when doing heavy IO on the internal flash. See bug... *searching* ... #567 Jul 31 20:10:46 SpeedEvil - Ahh. Yeah I removed all toolbars already. :-) Jul 31 20:11:07 SpeedEvil - Well, it was only a quick test. I wanted to see, how useable plain ff would be on the neo. Jul 31 20:11:23 have you actually compiled it? Jul 31 20:11:33 Extensions needed - IMO Jul 31 20:11:35 No. Just ran it remotely. Jul 31 20:11:48 Menux Jul 31 20:11:59 Elrond, seeing Jul 31 20:12:07 I still didn't get round to let my box compile xorg. ;o) Jul 31 20:12:11 collapse menu bar down to a single toolbar button. Jul 31 20:12:52 Elrond: and easygestures Jul 31 20:13:04 :-) Jul 31 20:13:13 I'll try them maybe the next days. :) Jul 31 20:13:14 Elrond: which lets you navigate back/forward/... without the toolbar Jul 31 20:13:32 Also fullmap for google-maps Jul 31 20:14:22 Elrond, will comment or file new bug after some more testing... Jul 31 20:15:41 mjr - Did slowing down help? Jul 31 20:16:38 someone put OpenMoko in pkgsrc (netbsd) -> http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Talk:OpenMoko_under_QEMU#NetBSD.2Fi386 :) Jul 31 20:16:45 scp -l 500 still errored out on me, no errors so far with -l 100 Jul 31 20:16:50 bbl Jul 31 20:17:58 also it seems that I can magically nowadays umount my memory card, when earlier umount gave "Inappropriate ioctl for device" Jul 31 20:20:34 stefan_schmidt: hum doesn't work with 20070726 Jul 31 20:21:53 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[P1_Owners]] [[User:Ashnazg]] [[Devirginator/it]] [[Flashing_openmoko]] [[Wish_List]] [[User:Coredump]] [[Talk:OpenMoko_under_QEMU]] [[Unresolved_Hardware_Questions]] Jul 31 20:22:16 Zennor2: please remove all rssreader tarballs and the subfolder in sources/svn, bitbake -c clean openmoko-rssreader; bitbake openmoko-rssreader Jul 31 20:25:49 yay! I got my neo, flashed it, and got a build to work :) now I have to go back to work :( Jul 31 20:26:26 Mine is still in the good ol' us of a. Jul 31 20:26:31 congrats moko-bunny Jul 31 20:27:17 thanks....tonight will be...can I do Bruce's Crash course :) Jul 31 20:27:45 I would have had it yesterday, but it "required signature over 21"...have to ping Sean about that Jul 31 20:28:00 Huh? What's that? Jul 31 20:28:05 but u got the dev version, uh moko-bunny ? Jul 31 20:28:30 moko-bunny, a +21 inch signature? Wow ;) Jul 31 20:28:35 moko-bunny - Where are you living? And what is the neo rated there, that you need something like that? Jul 31 20:28:43 yeah, got the adv version Jul 31 20:29:11 I have no idea...it's not a UPS thing, it said that right on the shipping label...normally UPS just drops off a package and doesn't even knock Jul 31 20:29:13 Probably internal policy by ups. Jul 31 20:29:22 Hmm. Jul 31 20:29:23 Weird. Jul 31 20:29:42 sounds like customs, but it shouldn't be so. the limit should be 18... Jul 31 20:30:13 I live in Pullman, WA....like I told the UPS guy...the only crime we have is when the UW Huskies come to town :D Jul 31 20:30:19 USA Jul 31 20:30:31 But what does customs have to do with electronic devices and age policies? Jul 31 20:30:35 (cross state rival football team) Jul 31 20:30:44 They figured it's a porn viewer or something? Jul 31 20:31:01 hahaha...maybe Jul 31 20:31:05 moko-bunny - Ahh, the country, where everybody carries a weapon, but you need to be over 21 to get a neo.. Yeah. ;o)) Jul 31 20:31:36 8) Jul 31 20:31:41 this is redneck territory...or close...so yeah, everyone has a weapon....but phones are a national security issue :o Jul 31 20:31:56 Yup. Either a porn-viewer or a terrorist-device. Jul 31 20:32:04 sounds absurd Jul 31 20:32:15 the paranoia is unbelievable Jul 31 20:32:17 guaqua, you don't say :) Jul 31 20:32:28 guaqua - They love that over there. ;o) Jul 31 20:32:35 uhoh, what did I start....how about this awesome Neo :) Jul 31 20:32:44 guaqua - Well, my country starts to love it too. :-( Jul 31 20:33:00 the land of the free, and psychiatrists and lawyers Jul 31 20:33:28 well, you all have a fun day....gotta go back to some manufacturing emergency or someting Jul 31 20:33:48 moko-bunny - Have a little fun.. Jul 31 20:37:45 moko-bunny: ASL? Jul 31 20:38:22 SpeedEvil - Hint: *** Signoff: moko-bunny Jul 31 20:38:23 Little late on that one Jul 31 20:38:27 Hallelujah! Jul 31 20:38:28 oh lord :P Jul 31 20:38:30 Meh. Jul 31 20:39:42 The one problem I see with stock FF is that it's not finger-friendly for picking URLs. Jul 31 20:39:49 s/URL/link/ Jul 31 20:39:50 SpeedEvil meant: The one problem I see with stock FF is that it's not finger-friendly for picking links. Jul 31 20:40:49 SpeedEvil - The main problem -- but also a very good thing, because it helps a little -- that I saw: those crappy "we put text as images" websites are completely unreadable at 300dpi. ;-) Jul 31 20:42:37 That's gonna suck. Jul 31 20:43:27 Okay, delete "good" thing. Those people, who do such crap websites will never use a neo nor see their sites on the neo. Jul 31 20:44:40 Elrond: sounds like captchas are in trouble now ... Jul 31 20:45:16 "captchas"? Jul 31 20:45:33 pictures designed to be read by humans Jul 31 20:45:40 of course this only spurs developemnt of OCR ;) Jul 31 20:45:55 Ahh. Jul 31 20:45:58 rschuster: I'm seeing more and more image captchas being replaced my math ones... Jul 31 20:46:19 I hate those anyway. I can only bypass them by using the imagezoom plugin and displaying them at 400%. Jul 31 20:46:49 Meh, I prefer image captches. like, "click on the elephant in the picture" Jul 31 20:46:57 Ahh, finally they get replaced by QM equations. ;o) Jul 31 20:47:10 migration to math captchas should be good then... its text should shrink/grow along with the rest of the page's text. Jul 31 20:47:11 and if you can answer it, you're a bot? Jul 31 20:47:37 ckuethe - Right. ;o) Jul 31 20:47:47 ... because humans would need an hour to solve it. ;o) Jul 31 20:48:03 I think match captchas won't work. The average math skills of North Americans would be challenged, and then they'd be insulted Jul 31 20:48:34 * ashnazg sees everyone looking at him and grinning Jul 31 20:48:36 ZerothCloned - Yeah. ;o) Jul 31 20:49:35 I just mispelled Elrond to Elrong. Some Tolkien fan's gonna kill me in my sleep now. Jul 31 20:49:43 * mwester sighs loudly, and wearily turns off the "gross stereotyping" alarm again. Jul 31 20:50:03 ZerothCloned: atleast you didn't say Eldong Jul 31 20:50:36 Elbunda, whatever Jul 31 20:53:08 so, whats new and radical in the world of OM? Jul 31 20:53:21 nothing Jul 31 20:54:07 ZerothCloned - new UI on the way. ;o) Jul 31 20:59:32 Elrond, new? Jul 31 20:59:35 Elrond: for real? any screenshots up? or does that ;o) mean you're kidding Jul 31 20:59:59 as in totally new looking? or just a rebuild using new versions of the amps and main menu system? Jul 31 21:00:00 Elrond: on the way? Jul 31 21:00:15 Elrond: my Neo has it for over two weeks :) Jul 31 21:00:17 amps=apps Jul 31 21:00:58 don-o: it will be announced probably soon Jul 31 21:01:14 does it look quite different? Jul 31 21:01:32 totally different Jul 31 21:01:36 i hope its less 'windows start menu' and more 'iPhone' Jul 31 21:01:41 heh Jul 31 21:01:44 openmoko-today2 is more iphone Jul 31 21:01:57 does that mean that all the apps will have to be redone too? Jul 31 21:02:01 don-o - It's for real. The smiley is more like "you could have seen it, if you were too close to some openmoko people" Jul 31 21:02:05 hrw - Huh? Jul 31 21:03:00 Hpoe the fonts can be adjusted, cos without glasses I can't read a thing ... Jul 31 21:03:07 heh Jul 31 21:03:07 :O Jul 31 21:03:30 mave_pan: heh. they're super-crisp still because of all the DPI :) Jul 31 21:03:38 what do you guys think about the onscreen keyboard with OM? Jul 31 21:03:49 Elrond: openmoko apps are written by OpenedHand. I work for OH. Jul 31 21:04:04 \o/ for hrw :) Jul 31 21:04:07 ZerothCloned, could use some layout tuning what with common punctuation with letters etc Jul 31 21:04:14 ZerothCloned, is that really worth commenting on, since the new UI will probably have a new onscreen kbd? Jul 31 21:04:15 did you-all see the video of the neo 'Flick-Scrolling' (ala iPhone) Jul 31 21:04:39 don-o hm? Jul 31 21:04:47 woglinde: http://www.angstrom-distribution.org/%7Ekoen/neo-scroll.avi Jul 31 21:05:30 xkr47: ;D Jul 31 21:05:31 good night Jul 31 21:05:41 hrw - Ahh. Jul 31 21:05:45 That sure looks good Jul 31 21:05:54 nice scroll :) Jul 31 21:06:04 indeed Jul 31 21:06:22 very cool scroll Jul 31 21:07:40 it looks much better when there are two columns Jul 31 21:09:21 when can we expect to see the new UI? Jul 31 21:12:16 hrw - BTW: We're making slow progress with the gps chip. :-) Jul 31 21:13:05 ZerothCloned: probably soon... :) Jul 31 21:15:40 Elrond: nice Jul 31 21:15:44 whoa, someone with an Orange phone has received theirs already! Jul 31 21:16:08 good news Jul 31 21:16:16 hope i get mine tomorrow :) Jul 31 21:16:45 hadn't seen an orange entry showing received... where? Jul 31 21:16:49 ynezz: same here :) Jul 31 21:17:03 creamsicle power! Jul 31 21:17:33 Elrond: any chance of mailing/dccing the raw dump? Jul 31 21:18:32 of the tool you're using that is - and any notes Jul 31 21:18:39 Or is it not there yet. Jul 31 21:18:42 ah, Belgium, rcvd 7/30 Jul 31 21:18:59 Assuming all oranges are orange. Jul 31 21:19:10 And they haven't mailed and said black isOK and forgotten. Jul 31 21:19:27 SpeedEvil: true... Jul 31 21:19:44 at the mercy of accuracy on the P1 Owners wiki Jul 31 21:23:07 mm, I have a scheduled arrival date now... Aug 3... 3 days for only 150 km from Koln to Eindhoven :( Jul 31 21:23:31 * don-o hopes he gets a reponse to his list posting about P1 availability Jul 31 21:24:20 for some reason, UPS thinks shipping/billing happened Jul 30, whereas yesterday they thought i happened Jul 27. Jul 31 21:24:57 their tracking system s*cks. But i'll have the phone soon, either way :) Jul 31 21:25:06 has someone got estimates on the P1 battery life? Jul 31 21:25:52 don-o: Neo1973 GTA01 Power Managment Jul 31 21:26:00 is about as good as it gets. Jul 31 21:26:09 Basically - 3-4 hours playing MP3 Jul 31 21:26:46 ashnazg: on the P1 owners wiki page. Jul 31 21:26:57 1/5 of the pretty much required power managment options are there at the moment. Jul 31 21:27:21 orospakr: that's me... what's the question? Jul 31 21:27:22 SpeedEvil, did you test standby, too? Jul 31 21:27:30 SpeedEvil: wow. there is a lot of detail. im just looking for an estimate between recharges if its sitting in my pocket, idleing the whole time. Jul 31 21:27:30 * SpeedEvil does not have hardware. Jul 31 21:27:40 don-o: it depends. Jul 31 21:27:53 SpeedEvil: how did i know you were going to say that :) Jul 31 21:27:56 don-o: if everything works - the CPU is off in that mode if you're not listening to bluetooth. Jul 31 21:28:11 Should be some 5-6 days. Jul 31 21:28:24 the best thing in the neo package is the geek-stylus ^^ Jul 31 21:28:27 Maybe more - in that mode pretty much the only thing on is the GSM modem. Jul 31 21:28:41 SpeedEvil: coolio. id want the bluetooth radio on as well. Jul 31 21:28:47 * don-o <3 bluetooth Jul 31 21:28:52 Unfortunately. Jul 31 21:29:15 yeeah you don't want to listen to bluetooth all the time on GTA01 and 02 Jul 31 21:29:16 As the core hardware team diddn't use bluetooth. Jul 31 21:29:29 They diddn't know that it might be an interesting use-case. Jul 31 21:29:40 So they diddn't add the required wakeup line. Jul 31 21:29:48 So the CPU has to be on all the time to do that. Jul 31 21:30:02 For a battery life of some 2 days ish. Jul 31 21:30:16 Bummer Jul 31 21:30:32 well heck my current phone gets only 2 days. im happy with anything longer than 20 hours. Jul 31 21:32:09 This is if all works as expected. Jul 31 21:32:30 One problem is that preliminary power measurements seem to be higher than expected. Jul 31 21:33:02 It needs much more detailed measurement to nail down where this power is going. Jul 31 21:33:12 And if it can be turned off, or if there are more hardware bugs. Jul 31 21:33:55 bye Jul 31 21:34:01 I am _not_ saying I think there are hardware bugs - just that if these modes haven't been tested... Jul 31 21:34:09 cya Jul 31 21:40:54 Please don't let this man torture me. Jul 31 21:41:33 Anybody have GPRS working? Jul 31 21:41:51 haven't tried that Jul 31 21:41:54 I've been able to successfully connect, but can't ping the remote end, or get any traffic through... Jul 31 21:42:12 ... using the wiki page for manual gprs Jul 31 21:42:13 maybe put it on tomorrow's todo Jul 31 21:43:11 freelock, well, if the device driver is ok, there shouldn't be much of the problem. The rest of the ppp stack is quite standard. Jul 31 21:43:21 *a problem Jul 31 21:44:21 I've never used GPRS before. But the connect script ran, gave me a ppp ip address, etc. Jul 31 21:44:34 Seems like there's something getting in the way of traffic, however. Jul 31 21:45:10 ashnazg: you actually have an orange phone? sweet! Jul 31 21:45:24 orospakr: no, no, don't have mine yet... Jul 31 21:45:44 oh, I thought you were the guy who received his orange phone. my bad. Jul 31 21:46:10 orospakr: I found someone on the P1 Owners page that shows they received their orange phone... in Belgium Jul 31 21:46:22 ashnazg: yeah, that's the one Jul 31 21:46:53 orospakr: when I said "that's me" earlier, I meant "ashnazg" on the P1 page is me Jul 31 21:47:31 orospakr: there's a couple of Orange buyers on there that show "billed", at least... wish I was one of 'em Jul 31 21:47:52 openmoko: 03root * r2589 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007.2/artwork/sounds/: artwork/sounds: copy into OM-2007.2 Jul 31 21:48:13 openmoko: 03root * r2590 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007.2/artwork/icons/: artwork/icons: copy into OM-2007.2 Jul 31 21:49:17 "root"?! Jul 31 21:50:05 SpeedEvil - Huh, yeah, I'll create you a dump. Jul 31 21:50:18 urghs Jul 31 21:50:24 secure system, there... Jul 31 21:50:30 cough Jul 31 21:50:36 seems someone has root access Jul 31 21:50:37 Elrond: ewww, you're gonna take a dump for SpeedEvil? Jul 31 21:51:06 Stephmw - Hmm? Jul 31 21:51:08 mickeyl: or someone's got a root window around when they should be using sudo? Jul 31 21:51:53 (script) openmoko-devel: "Michael 'Mickey' Lauer" Re: Question on Moko X server Jul 31 21:53:02 Stephmw - I'll send him my dump. ;o) Jul 31 21:53:18 can svn change the author name afterwards ? Jul 31 21:53:42 mickeyl - Huh, probably the same way one can change the log message. Jul 31 21:54:07 mickeyl - changing log message is a FAQ for s*version. Jul 31 21:54:56 mickeyl: can yes, but you might not want that :) Jul 31 21:55:04 zecke: why not? Jul 31 21:55:25 that's kinda fixing the symptom, not the problem, no? Jul 31 21:55:39 the problem is i forgot to su Jul 31 21:55:47 i can remove the stuff and copy again Jul 31 21:55:50 or change the author Jul 31 21:55:55 that's all :) Jul 31 21:56:15 mwester - Well, one might want to fix the symptom first, then the problem. :) Jul 31 21:57:01 mickeyl - root instead of www-data? Either is very useful. ;o) Jul 31 21:57:09 I'm not sure it matters what's in the log, as long as you know what was done as root then there's no security issue AFAIK (just the concern about what happens when you build as root). Jul 31 21:57:10 mickeyl - Why don't you use https? Jul 31 21:57:40 mwester - Well, it's more a matter of "having the logs nice" ;-) Jul 31 21:57:40 because it's a tad bit more efficient to do moves directly on the server Jul 31 21:58:09 mickeyl - One can do svn move https://.... https://.... I think it's as efficient as locally. Jul 31 21:58:53 Elrond: agreed, and making the logs "nice" is good, once one establishes that there wasn't anything broken by root (building with OE as root can sometimes put funny stuff in system directories). Jul 31 21:59:18 *G* Jul 31 22:00:08 well, we don't build on our svn server anyways Jul 31 22:18:35 * CM|Vacation is looking forward to trying new OM snapshots on a real phone Jul 31 22:22:12 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[OpenMoko_Local_Groups:_Netherlands]] [[User:THe_IkkE]] [[P1_Owners]] [[USB_Networking]] [[Wish_List]] [[OpenMoko_Local_Groups:_Bogota]] Jul 31 22:27:09 Excellent, my openmoko is on its way again :) Jul 31 22:27:14 Here's hoping it doesn't get held up in customs Jul 31 22:28:40 hi coredump Jul 31 22:28:44 hi Jul 31 22:30:11 I see that Writchie|away: beat me to it in regards of power usage measurements Jul 31 22:30:23 CoreDump|home: more is better Jul 31 22:30:29 More measurements that is. Jul 31 22:30:30 indeed Jul 31 22:30:40 I found a bug w/ auto-fast btw Jul 31 22:30:57 it's ignored completely :) Jul 31 22:34:08 Has anyone got updating the phone working from windows, or does it still require a linux desktop box? Jul 31 22:34:23 (All my servers are linux; my desktop is windows, and my laptop is mac :/) Jul 31 22:34:57 Arachnid: now's a good time to switch Jul 31 22:34:59 * Stephmw hides Jul 31 22:35:18 Arachnid: seriously though, you could go the vmware way and host a ubuntu install there Jul 31 22:35:40 I tried exactly that. It didn't work (VMWare). Jul 31 22:35:49 I was about to say Jul 31 22:35:58 I saw someone mentioned it didn't work too well Jul 31 22:36:02 Please don't let this man torture me. Jul 31 22:36:05 Anyone tried it from a mac? Jul 31 22:36:36 Or maybe I should see if I can write what's required to do it from windows - it's going to be needed eventually, logically. Jul 31 22:36:37 hey guys, I got my openmoko, YAY! Jul 31 22:36:44 weez: grats. :) Jul 31 22:36:45 * SpeedEvil sighs. Jul 31 22:36:56 its a nice form factor Jul 31 22:36:59 Mine was held up in the US for a 'security check' all weekend, or I'd have it by now. :/ Jul 31 22:37:01 weez gratz Jul 31 22:37:14 security check? Jul 31 22:37:15 lol Jul 31 22:37:21 Why the long face, speedevil? Jul 31 22:37:24 Arachnid: Some testing with windows would be nice Jul 31 22:37:42 Because mine is not here. Jul 31 22:37:45 ah Jul 31 22:37:54 not in the USA? Jul 31 22:37:56 Arachnid: Search the wiki. There should be some introductions, but I fear no real solution Jul 31 22:38:04 *nods* Jul 31 22:38:15 Theoretically it should work in OSX, since it's BSD based... right? Jul 31 22:38:18 Arachnid: Feel free to test and report what works and what not Jul 31 22:38:18 so i read this page: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/SH1 Jul 31 22:38:33 but I see no mention of backing up the GPS software Jul 31 22:38:37 Arachnid: after the 'check', it may need counseling... US customs are known to love deep cavity searches Jul 31 22:38:38 do we even need to worry about that? Jul 31 22:38:46 Stephmw: heheh Jul 31 22:38:47 weez, it's not yet provided Jul 31 22:38:59 msg TRIsoft moin Jul 31 22:39:06 ok, cool Jul 31 22:39:12 so i can just flash away then Jul 31 22:39:21 yeah go ahead Jul 31 22:39:32 The GPS software was not included in the SH1 units." Jul 31 22:39:44 * Stephmw heads to bed Jul 31 22:39:52 no rootfs Jul 31 22:39:53 ah Jul 31 22:39:55 no gps soft Jul 31 22:40:24 Anyone know when we can get the GPS software, then? Jul 31 22:40:26 was it the developers who got preview versions who had to backup their units to preserve GPS then? Jul 31 22:40:35 Kind of pointless having a GPS in it if we can't do anything with it Jul 31 22:40:37 i seem to recall reading that in the channel a couple of weeks ago Jul 31 22:40:47 Sean recently said they're still working out the kinks with Global Locate that has been a bit jealous of its code, but that he'd expect to be able to provide gllin "soon" Jul 31 22:41:05 ah Jul 31 22:41:08 would make sense since someone wrote a shell script to make the phone into a bluetooth GPS Jul 31 22:41:28 * Arachnid never understood that attitude for most code Jul 31 22:41:30 weez, yeah, a version of gllin was on some early phones when shipped Jul 31 22:41:42 It's not as if providing code - even source code - causes you to lose your rights over it Jul 31 22:41:47 *shrugs* Jul 31 22:41:54 so .... technically... its around... Jul 31 22:42:21 weez, it's around, but apparently people aren't jumping up to illegally copy it Jul 31 22:42:31 'cause I've asked for it ;) Jul 31 22:42:32 thats good then Jul 31 22:42:38 i hate illegal copiers Jul 31 22:42:44 :) Jul 31 22:42:54 what did I ever do to you? Jul 31 22:42:56 mjr: it's not on the p1 phones? Jul 31 22:43:04 me too - found no gllin in my mailbox yet so I can't test power with gllin Jul 31 22:43:07 cjb, not these ones leastways Jul 31 22:43:20 * cjb has a copy, and would allegedly be willing to allegedly provide it. Jul 31 22:44:16 well, as I said before, my e-mail is mjr@iki.fi, were one interested in sending me mail about not sharing the binary with me Jul 31 22:44:38 * Arachnid wonders if he should book flights to Dublin today Jul 31 22:46:06 quaqua: ping Jul 31 22:46:11 mjr: can you accept DCC? Jul 31 22:46:16 (allegedly) Jul 31 22:46:49 I probably could, were there some legal use for it Jul 31 22:47:07 hey, I know a great cupcake recipe Jul 31 22:47:11 want me to DCC it? Jul 31 22:47:28 if you have permission from the chef Jul 31 22:48:23 Thanks. It's small. Jul 31 22:48:46 Did you expect a cupcake recipe to be big? Jul 31 22:49:17 If it's French, yes. Jul 31 22:49:28 actually, tar complains that it didn't get the whole thing Jul 31 22:49:30 just 3k Jul 31 22:49:35 ah Jul 31 22:49:40 it is indeed bigger. hmph. Jul 31 22:50:35 try again for fluke's sake? Jul 31 22:51:04 is pavel here? Jul 31 22:51:30 not right now. Jul 31 22:51:37 Now I have it. The recipe seems vegan, that's jolly. Jul 31 22:52:06 mjr - Any progress on your IO errors? Jul 31 22:53:06 still no i/o errors with scp -l 100 Jul 31 22:53:27 ~seen paval Jul 31 22:53:31 oops Jul 31 22:53:35 i assume I need to charge the battery before flashing? Jul 31 22:53:36 ~seen pavel Jul 31 22:53:45 pavelm? Jul 31 22:53:51 i haven't seen 'paval', mwester Jul 31 22:53:51 since usb does not provide sufficient power? Jul 31 22:53:53 pavel <~pavel@c-67-170-103-101.client.comcast.net> was last seen on IRC in channel #debian, 1045d 1h 4m 45s ago, saying: 'OK, now I feel stupid.'. Jul 31 22:53:54 however, the USB link has been severed a couple of times... Jul 31 22:54:00 There's the bot. Jul 31 22:54:03 I'm not sure why Jul 31 22:54:12 weez - *I* would recommending to charge the battery, yes. Jul 31 22:54:15 oh haha Jul 31 22:54:25 shouldnt someone put that on the SH1 page? Jul 31 22:54:31 i will go do that right now. Jul 31 22:54:56 hm it stands on the battery Jul 31 22:55:11 before first use charge it full Jul 31 22:55:13 has anyone used pavel's tui app? Jul 31 22:55:27 bradpitcher I didnt Jul 31 22:56:18 I tried to make it and it tried to use a scratchbox compiler Jul 31 22:56:20 It'll probably work, as USb in full power mode gives enough for the neo to live _and_ charge the battery. But still, it's better to have a charged battery (especially when upgrading u-boot. Which of course is only advisable, if you REALLY know, what you're doing) Jul 31 22:56:35 I wonder if I can just make a symlink to the openembedded compiler? Jul 31 22:56:52 I didn't have the patience to charge up before flashing Jul 31 22:57:03 * CoreDump|home built a USB measurement adaptor today http://hentges.net/tmp/photos/Neo1973/charging/dsc00041.jpg Jul 31 22:57:14 worked fine, and as long as you're not flashing u-boot should be safe, and I've the debug board anyway... Jul 31 22:57:35 mjr - As I said: It'll work out for usb full power being enough. But *I* would recommend charging before flashing. Jul 31 22:57:55 mjr - Yeah, right. Jul 31 22:58:16 of course one can recommend things :] Jul 31 22:58:28 no debug board here :( Jul 31 22:58:35 hopefully i will never need that Jul 31 22:58:59 weez - Rule 1: Don't touch u-boot. Rule 2: Don't touch the u-boot env. Rule 3: Goto Rule 1. Jul 31 22:59:42 again the usbnet link was severed Jul 31 22:59:52 CoreDump|home: nice hack! Jul 31 22:59:59 ;) Jul 31 22:59:59 CoreDump|home: Looks professional :) Jul 31 23:00:02 CoreDump|home: that's not a proper adaptor. Jul 31 23:00:02 USB disconnect, even Jul 31 23:00:07 It doesn't have any duct tape. Jul 31 23:00:20 mjr: sounds like your USB port is resetting due to the load Jul 31 23:00:27 SpeedEvil: heh Jul 31 23:00:57 CoreDump|home, hmh Jul 31 23:01:24 I get that on my noetbook as well when charging Neo :( Jul 31 23:01:33 * mjr plugged into the powered hub on my display Jul 31 23:01:52 let's see if that fares better Jul 31 23:02:02 didn't happen for an hour or two there though Jul 31 23:02:04 stefan_schmidt: thanks! Sometimes it helps to be EE =D Jul 31 23:02:33 * stefan_schmidt drops the EE parts of his studies and focused on CS Jul 31 23:02:35 my crappy hub didn't help at all Jul 31 23:02:45 * cjb never did EE, and is regretting it in this job. Jul 31 23:02:49 * CoreDump|home sometimes wished he had done the same Jul 31 23:03:11 when i plug in the USB, it boots up and cannot complete because the rootfs is missing Jul 31 23:03:15 * Elrond lets other people do the EE parts. ;o) Jul 31 23:03:18 is it charging at that point? Jul 31 23:03:26 weez: yes Jul 31 23:03:46 that seems like another point that should be in the wiki somewhere Jul 31 23:03:49 in fact it is charging more that if you'd turn it off completely Jul 31 23:03:52 weez - Is the kernel booting? Or just u-boot complaining about no kernel? Jul 31 23:04:27 it shows the penguin and loads the kernel Jul 31 23:04:43 dies at the point where it try to switch to rootfs Jul 31 23:04:47 no help from hub Jul 31 23:04:53 kernel panic Jul 31 23:04:57 nite Jul 31 23:05:01 n8 woglinde Jul 31 23:05:09 weez I guess no rootfs Jul 31 23:05:17 yeha Jul 31 23:05:25 s/ha/ah/ Jul 31 23:05:26 weez meant: yeah Jul 31 23:05:40 according to the SH1 page Jul 31 23:05:42 that is the case Jul 31 23:05:50 i think they most ship with kernel but no rootfs Jul 31 23:05:59 weez - I don't know how to stop u-boot effectively from trying to load a kernel.... u-boot can show you, how it charges... Jul 31 23:06:17 ... and one can turn off the display while it charges. Jul 31 23:06:34 weez - But anyway: If you already have a kernel on it: Go and put a rootfs on it via DFU. Jul 31 23:06:46 no worry about bricking then.. Jul 31 23:06:58 openmoko: 03zecke * r2591 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007.2/applications/openmoko-feedreader2/ (10 files in 2 dirs): (log message trimmed) Jul 31 23:06:58 openmoko: 2007-08-01 Holger Hans Peter Freyther Jul 31 23:06:58 openmoko: Janitor work and continue the renaming to feedreader2. Change README to document Jul 31 23:06:58 openmoko: what is in my mind in regard to implementing the new UI guidelines. Jul 31 23:06:58 openmoko: * README: Jul 31 23:07:02 openmoko: * data/Makefile.am: Jul 31 23:07:04 openmoko: * data/openmoko-feedreader2.desktop: Added. Jul 31 23:07:06 with 50ma charge you can't DFU with a battery below certain level Jul 31 23:07:12 what is the wiki they are using? I wanted to go read about the how to do the markup Jul 31 23:07:15 weez - No, not for the rootfs. Jul 31 23:07:28 Elrond: ok, good to know Jul 31 23:07:28 weez - mediawiki. Jul 31 23:09:05 * mjr is getting some cupcakes but not sure they're baked properly Jul 31 23:09:21 though I am in a bad location to cook Jul 31 23:09:54 bf8ab4fda531bd00503a13ddfe2e2740 cupcake Jul 31 23:09:58 . Jul 31 23:10:16 * CoreDump|home wished fast-charging would work while turned off.. Jul 31 23:10:31 CoreDump|home - it can't. Jul 31 23:10:31 recovering a flat battery on a P0 takes ages Jul 31 23:10:53 Does the device charge at all when turned off? Jul 31 23:11:00 I know :) Doesn't stop me from wishing otherwise tho =) Jul 31 23:11:00 it does Jul 31 23:11:04 not ages just 20 hours Jul 31 23:11:19 THanks, that's good to know. Jul 31 23:11:30 unless you have a debug board or other device that will source the 500ma Jul 31 23:11:36 Writchie: once it can be turned on, it'll charge w/ 500mA so it'll be quicker Jul 31 23:11:44 Just stick a 1,000uF cap across the battery terminals and remove the lithium battery, instant recharge state heh Jul 31 23:12:02 not just turned on - it has to negotiate the power Jul 31 23:12:03 heh Jul 31 23:12:06 CoreDump|home - 2 hours at tuned off, then power on and let it charge at full power? Jul 31 23:12:14 Writchie: u-boot does that Jul 31 23:12:32 u-boot and the kernel also. Jul 31 23:12:38 have to leave the charger plugged in though Jul 31 23:12:44 Elrond: more like 30m off, then fast-charge for an unknown amount of time =) Jul 31 23:13:09 so you can confirm that 100mA rally works all the time? Jul 31 23:13:13 really, even Jul 31 23:13:14 no Jul 31 23:13:22 it _never_ charges w/ 100mA Jul 31 23:13:22 uboot does not seem to be negotiating for full power in all cases Jul 31 23:13:37 it will however, always charge w/ ~50mA Jul 31 23:13:43 ok Jul 31 23:13:47 50ma is not enough to power the device for a DFU Jul 31 23:13:52 put all that in the FAQ on the SH1 page Jul 31 23:14:11 Writchie - when it gets to DFU, u-boot will hopefully have negotiated 500mA. Jul 31 23:14:19 the only time when I have seen a 50mA charge was when the device is turned off Jul 31 23:14:22 anyone here familiar with the gconf-bridge? Jul 31 23:14:31 Elrond: it does, I tested that today Jul 31 23:14:33 not the specifics about the power, but the don't worry part. Jul 31 23:14:36 now that i'm rigged to monitor power i will try later with dead batteries to reproduce Jul 31 23:15:34 CoreDump|home - Using your equipment, can you take a look at bug #95? Jul 31 23:15:42 !ombug 95 Jul 31 23:15:44 * * Bug 95, Status: NEW, Created: Unknown Jul 31 23:15:45 * * : verify charger current and battery temperature reading correctness Jul 31 23:15:46 * * http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=95 Jul 31 23:16:09 CoreDump|home - Excluding tmeperature, just the current. :-) Jul 31 23:17:02 Elrond: when time permits. I will have a look Jul 31 23:17:03 mickeyl: just saw on the scrollback your subversion woes Jul 31 23:17:16 mickeyl: the user name is just a unversioned property, just change it Jul 31 23:17:32 mickeyl: the date too, if you want to fix the borked clock (if I read the scrollback correctly) Jul 31 23:17:36 cesarb - Like the commit message? Jul 31 23:17:40 I'm gonna need to do something about that bluetooth networking, if this usbnet is gonna keep cutting off... Jul 31 23:17:56 Elrond: yep Jul 31 23:18:09 Elrond: from the svn book: "[...] the tree has also been given a property to store the username of the revision's author (svn:author) and a property to store the log message attached to that revision (svn:log)." Jul 31 23:18:21 has the GSoC guy who does the stuff with BT got anything ready? Jul 31 23:18:26 Okay, so I was right about "mostly the same as 'change commit message', which is a s*version FAQ". Jul 31 23:18:46 cesarb: interesting. thanks Jul 31 23:18:58 mickeyl - I told you hours ago. ;o) Jul 31 23:19:02 Elrond: the same paragraph mentions svn:date, which is the other problem if I read the scrollback correctly Jul 31 23:19:04 * CoreDump|home slaps himself for leaving the fully charged P1 at work..... Jul 31 23:19:39 now so...if there's battery temperature, we can calculate the ambient temperature from it aswell :) Jul 31 23:19:50 Even if it weren't an editable property, you could always simply do a svn dump, edit it (it's a specially-formatted text file) and import it again Jul 31 23:20:04 guaqua - We can only guess. ;-) Jul 31 23:20:33 fwiw, I do have equipment to measure the temperature of the battery. I will however only do so w/o opening it up ;) Jul 31 23:20:37 Elrond: some fancy algorithms that determine if it's in the pocket or not - and and Jul 31 23:21:09 guaqua - hehe. :-) Ahh, for "not chargin", the temperature might even be useful... Jul 31 23:21:49 CoreDump|home - Well, the temperature looks at least in the right domain. While current looks like off-by-factor-5. Jul 31 23:22:20 we will see tomorrow ;= Jul 31 23:22:31 CoreDump|home - Yeah, no panic. :-) Jul 31 23:24:50 I hope, we'll get a useable finger-useable picture viewer sometime. (instead of doing something for gps), I'm currently having nice pcitures on the display of the phone. It's really nice. :) Jul 31 23:25:32 There are FF extensions to do photo-viewing :) Jul 31 23:25:51 Elrond: thanks for the tips. I put them to good use by documenting them in the wiki Jul 31 23:25:51 I'd go qemu->windows->irfanview ;) Jul 31 23:26:06 Elrond: How are you displaying pictures? Just redirecting X, or is there an ap on the unit itself? Jul 31 23:26:23 has anyone tried bl-6c yet? amazon us has authentic ones for cheap! Jul 31 23:26:49 so one thing that occurs to me.. Jul 31 23:26:54 rtm_ - running gimp on my desktop, clicking "View -> Move Window to -> neo:0" ;-) Jul 31 23:27:09 i dont know if others have already talked about this Jul 31 23:27:22 Elrond: Good idea. Jul 31 23:27:44 Elrond: Ok - got it extracted OK - just need to write something trivial to do a least-squares fit Jul 31 23:28:01 SpeedEvil - Ahh, great. :-) Jul 31 23:28:29 I was thinking about making a USB drive that lets me plug my openmoko into an untrusted computer, use the larger display of the computer and the screen of openmoko for putting in passwords Jul 31 23:29:18 well that sure sounds interesting Jul 31 23:29:20 so I could look at my mail on an untrusted computer without having to worry about keyloggers, etc Jul 31 23:29:26 s/openmoko/Neo1973 Jul 31 23:29:36 yes Jul 31 23:29:42 you're highly paranoid aren't ya weez Jul 31 23:29:46 weez - Hmm. Interesting idea. :-) Jul 31 23:29:47 you got it Jul 31 23:30:09 some kinda cygwin x distribution would do it Jul 31 23:30:09 Hmmmmmm. Jul 31 23:30:18 Booting from openmoko. Jul 31 23:30:42 With the usb cable, it can act as a storage device. And with the 2gig storage card, one can put a livecd onto it. Jul 31 23:30:42 i like that idea best so far Jul 31 23:30:46 mmazur - That idea is somewhere on the wiki. Jul 31 23:31:19 i guess therer is an idea page? Jul 31 23:31:26 i will put mine up there Jul 31 23:31:28 yay, I'm browsing the intterweb Jul 31 23:31:57 * xzcvczx 's phone has left hawaii Jul 31 23:32:12 mjr... good you've learned how to use a web browser! Jul 31 23:32:22 mjr, watch out for the tubes. Jul 31 23:32:25 And the truck. Jul 31 23:32:29 mrj soon we'll work you up to "checking email" Jul 31 23:32:47 mrj after that we'll teach you about AOL Chat Rooms and the fun people you can meet! Jul 31 23:32:53 * Arachnid 's phone has too Jul 31 23:33:10 mmazur - http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Wishlist:LiveUSB_distro Jul 31 23:33:12 lol sorry dude, what broswer are you using? gdk-webkit, minimo or dillo? Jul 31 23:33:15 Arachnid: where you from? Jul 31 23:34:00 xzcvczx: New Zealand Jul 31 23:34:17 Arachnid: ah awesome.... what part and base or advanced Jul 31 23:34:22 base Jul 31 23:34:26 damnit Jul 31 23:34:34 what part of nz Jul 31 23:34:39 ah Jul 31 23:34:41 Christchurch Jul 31 23:34:43 BryceLeo, apparently "web" Jul 31 23:34:50 you? Jul 31 23:34:53 auckland Jul 31 23:34:58 mrj interesting.... Jul 31 23:35:10 lol so thats 4 people in nz now Jul 31 23:35:13 heh, both are probably on the same flight Jul 31 23:35:20 BryceLeo - It's this default thingy on the rootfs. I have no idea, on what it is based. Jul 31 23:35:25 6:55am departure from hawaii? Jul 31 23:35:29 yup Jul 31 23:35:35 sorry 6:55am in trasit to auckland Jul 31 23:35:39 yeah Jul 31 23:35:46 * Arachnid wonders how long it'll be held up in customs :/ Jul 31 23:35:49 yeah mine yours and psi's are on the same plane Jul 31 23:35:52 Elrond: i'll have to give it a look over Jul 31 23:36:06 I must say, the part with entering passwords from the neo, instead of from the pc is a good one. Jul 31 23:36:35 lol great so now there's two paranoid security nuts around :P Jul 31 23:37:05 whoo Jul 31 23:37:19 * mjr put xeyes up remotely from the desktop box :) Jul 31 23:37:24 I'm just saying -- would it be possible to actually get secure computing with it? Jul 31 23:37:40 My Neo is watching me Jul 31 23:37:49 Arachnid: psi's has already got stuck in customs for 3days coming out of america Jul 31 23:37:52 Is it possible to perform cryptographically safe computing operations on a hostile machine? Jul 31 23:38:03 As in running an encrypted qemu for example? Jul 31 23:38:05 xzcvczx: So did mine - well, a 'security check or other out of ups control' Jul 31 23:38:18 But that doesn't mean NZ customs won't stop it for GST too Jul 31 23:38:21 Arachnid: oh that sucks.... mine went straight through Jul 31 23:38:52 Arachnid: i wouldnt mind if they did it would probably be quicker than waiting for the phone to be dropped off by courier Jul 31 23:39:03 mmazur: no - at least, not ouside certain restricted (and rather esoteric) algorithms Jul 31 23:39:14 mmazur: The plaintext still has to be visible to the machine soemwhere Jul 31 23:39:17 er, somewhere Jul 31 23:39:31 xzcvczx: So yours got shipped later and ended up on the same flight? :/ Jul 31 23:39:39 Arachnid: yup Jul 31 23:39:44 Good night people. Jul 31 23:39:49 mine didnt leave sunnyvale til the 30th Jul 31 23:39:50 night Elrond Jul 31 23:40:16 xzcvczx: It won't make anything any faster - you have to pay GST, then the courier picks it up again and delivers it Jul 31 23:40:26 I guess you might be able to go in and pay in person, being in auckland Jul 31 23:40:28 Arachnid, can't get it all :( Jul 31 23:40:39 mmazur: huh? Jul 31 23:40:42 Arachnid: yeah thats my assumption Jul 31 23:41:07 Anyway -- I'm sure it'd be quite possible to figure out the most common 'unsafe machine' scenarios and circumvent them with ease. Jul 31 23:41:28 openmoko: 03mickey * r2592 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007.2/panel-plugins/openmoko-panel-gsm/ (ChangeLog configure.ac): openmoko-panel-gsm: fix configure.ac to depend on libmokogsmd2 Jul 31 23:41:32 Arachnid: oh well these phones in nz will be about 1 in a million Jul 31 23:41:36 Arachnid, nothing :) Jul 31 23:41:38 a remotely run firefox is surprisingly usable on the Neo Jul 31 23:42:48 xzcvczx: heh, indeed Jul 31 23:43:09 mmazur: Sure, but that's not much of a guarantee of security Jul 31 23:43:20 Wonder if it's possible for the neo to show itself as an ethernet device and a mass storage at the same time. Jul 31 23:43:26 Now that would simply *rock*. Jul 31 23:43:28 "Possibly a little bit better than just naively using an untrusted machine" Jul 31 23:43:49 Arachnid, not 'a little bit'. Jul 31 23:44:03 What exactly are you envisaging that will help? Jul 31 23:44:26 Arachnid, you're not exactly james bond, you can be reasonably certain, that if you take care of common virus/trojan scenarios, you're safe. Jul 31 23:45:19 Arachnid, some combination of a dedicated app (mass storage) making use of some form of safe communication with the neo (ethernet) when necessary. Jul 31 23:45:34 So eg. I can keep my firefox passwords on the neo, but not as a file. Jul 31 23:45:47 Ditto for other configuration options. Jul 31 23:45:56 Without complete control over the computer, you can't rule out rootkits, for example Jul 31 23:46:16 And it's not unreasonable to imagine that new trojans will install them, even if you're not a specific target Jul 31 23:46:38 Yes, but what rootkit would be smart enough to get through my rather unique protocol of neo<->firefox communication? Jul 31 23:46:47 I think it's a lot of work for very little return - if you're really paranoid, get something like an eToken and store all your certificates on that. Jul 31 23:46:59 That's security through obscurity, which is weak at best. Jul 31 23:47:08 xzcvczx: I suspect there's more than 4 in NZ getting neos Jul 31 23:47:13 Not really. Jul 31 23:47:30 Security through obscurity is still security. Jul 31 23:47:35 Besides, said trojan could just read your password out of the text field in the web browser, or (if it's not SSL), read it off the wire. Jul 31 23:47:44 Sure, in the same way that rot13 is security Jul 31 23:47:46 Especially when you actually do some calculations about the risk. Jul 31 23:47:49 ajmitch: what makes your suspect that Jul 31 23:47:57 It's more secure than nothing, but it's still only marginally secure Jul 31 23:48:20 If you do said calculations, I think you'll find that the risk is small to start with, and your approach only lowers it slightly. Jul 31 23:48:21 xzcvczx: because I know that there's a group order of 3 in the 2nd batch :) Jul 31 23:48:43 zecke: Thanks to qmake guru mickey|zzZZzz webkit builds now again. +inherit qmake qt4x11 pkgconfig does the trick. He will push this with some more cleanup tomorrow. JFYI Jul 31 23:48:53 And likely others ordered too but just don't broadcast the fact. Jul 31 23:48:56 ajmitch: oh ok .... any of them advanced? Jul 31 23:49:01 Arachnid, you sure? Most computers *are* indeed infected with various crapware. Jul 31 23:49:15 afaik there could be one advanced at least Jul 31 23:49:29 mmazur: Yes, and how many of them are logging all your passwords, and why would they? Jul 31 23:49:29 Arachnid, not wanting to type my password on a public computer is not exactly paranoia imho. Jul 31 23:49:43 stefan_schmidt: eek, qt4x11 will add a full qt build to the deps Jul 31 23:49:44 hads: quite likely, I remember a couple of others who have ordered as well Jul 31 23:49:52 And how many simply read the password out of text fields or over the wire? Jul 31 23:49:59 stefan_schmidt: this ugly QMAKE_MOC is from qt4x11 without adding the whole qt4 as build dep Jul 31 23:50:01 Arachnid, I'm quite certain, that firefox's password mgr is a standard trojan target by now. Jul 31 23:50:13 zecke: I know, I waited the whole time on it. Jul 31 23:50:13 Like I said, if you're paranoid, get an eToken or something - far more (provable) security than this jerry-rigged system Jul 31 23:50:38 zecke: If you have a sane and fatser method discuss this with mickey|zzZZzz Jul 31 23:50:43 mmazur: What does the password manager have to do with anything? IF you click 'remember my password' on a public computer, you deserve what you get... Jul 31 23:50:43 zecke: We found none. Jul 31 23:50:46 ajmitch: well it will be nice if someone in nz is getting advanced as then we can "hire" there debug board of them to fix the bootloader if we stuff it Jul 31 23:51:04 stefan_schmidt: only setting QMAKE_MOC didn't work? it really should do :} Jul 31 23:51:18 zecke: It did not Jul 31 23:51:29 Anyway, I'm tired. Tomorrow Jul 31 23:51:32 Night all Jul 31 23:51:37 n8 stefan_schmidt Jul 31 23:51:40 stefan_schmidt: then copy everything but the qt4 dep :} Jul 31 23:51:46 Arachnid, the point of the excersice is for me to be able to use my remembered passwords on a public computer safely, by taking advantage of the fact, that a neo is a device and not just a pendrive. Jul 31 23:52:59 And like I said, it's not particularly 'safe'. You're still entering plaintext passwords into a text field, and even trojans not built with this sort of evasion in mind may well intercept them anyway Jul 31 23:53:09 Not to mention sending them plaintext across the wire more often than not Jul 31 23:53:10 Eh. Jul 31 23:53:14 Just stretch your imagination a bit. Jul 31 23:53:18 Neo is a device. Jul 31 23:53:37 Which means the passwords might never actually reside on the pc unencrypted. Jul 31 23:53:45 If for example the neo takes care of encryption. Jul 31 23:53:53 See where I'm getting at? Jul 31 23:53:59 I was arguing that your scheme is weak, not that every possible scheme is weak Jul 31 23:54:06 Ok. Jul 31 23:54:21 Though if you're logging into insecure sites with it, you're out of luck either way, since it goes across the wire unencrypted Jul 31 23:54:51 Yes, but since it'd need a hacked up firefox, it might just as well give me a big WTF should I try to do that. Jul 31 23:54:59 shouldn't the include dir for libmokoui2 be /usr/include/mokoui2 and not /usr/include/libmokoui2? Jul 31 23:55:23 About the only way to do this practically is along the lines of what removable crypto keys do - store your private key in the device and get the device to compute signatures and do encryption for you Jul 31 23:55:32 Which still means I get a secure browser, even on a public display. Jul 31 23:55:34 Arachnid, yup. Jul 31 23:55:48 Which is only going to work if the site you're logging into supports authentication with certificates instead of passwords Jul 31 23:55:51 Arachnid, + use the device for inputing passwords, should I need to do that manually. Jul 31 23:56:04 Arachnid, https should suffice. Jul 31 23:56:15 (Note, Firefox natively supports using crypto tokens for logging into sites that support client certificates - no hackery required) Jul 31 23:56:16 or not... Jul 31 23:56:25 mmazur: Only if the site supports client certificates. Most don't. Jul 31 23:57:02 If the untrusted pc sees my ssl session initialization, I'm done, right? :/ Jul 31 23:57:20 If it only sees it, no Jul 31 23:57:31 If it's one of the parties, yes Jul 31 23:58:00 neo<->UPC<->https://somesite Jul 31 23:58:30 In this scenario, with the upc seeing all traffic, encryption without certificates (like, say, my ssh keys), won't help, ay? Jul 31 23:58:43 Your ssh keys are certificates Jul 31 23:58:49 Well, to all intents and purposes, anyway Jul 31 23:59:06 Ok, but I'm talking https here. Jul 31 23:59:12 I know my ssh is safe under such a scenario. Jul 31 23:59:21 If the untrusted computer sees the traffic but isn't the client, it's fine Jul 31 23:59:36 Otherwise SSL would be totally useless, as any other computer between you and the server is in the same position to interfere. Jul 31 23:59:39 Assuming I already have my target sites cert on me? Jul 31 23:59:54 You don't even need that, you just need root CA certificates Aug 01 00:00:04 As long as the target cert is signed by a root CA, that is Aug 01 00:01:21 Soooo, with neo doing the encryption and making sure no actuall passwords ever reach firefox running on the untrusted pc, I'd be secured from automatic sniffing, wouldn't you say? Aug 01 00:01:50 yes Aug 01 00:02:12 Provided you can come up with some (convoluted) system to redirect all connections to the neo and back Aug 01 00:02:17 And fill in form password fields on the neo Aug 01 00:02:21 linux! Aug 01 00:02:22 err Aug 01 00:02:36 just use certs Aug 01 00:02:41 and preinstall them on the neo Aug 01 00:02:56 wont work for everything... Aug 01 00:03:16 weez: He wants to do his actual interaction with an untrusted computer, not the neo Aug 01 00:03:30 that was more or less what i was thinking too Aug 01 00:03:38 I want the untrusted computers big display Aug 01 00:03:44 Yup. Aug 01 00:03:50 But not give it access to my sensitive data. Aug 01 00:03:51 without worry about passwords Aug 01 00:03:53 Hmmm. Aug 01 00:03:55 * BryceLeo sighs Aug 01 00:03:56 vnc Aug 01 00:03:59 shared vnc Aug 01 00:04:06 if you want real security don't use "teh intarweb" Aug 01 00:04:19 weez, with neo actually running firefox?! Aug 01 00:04:23 well never use business computers Aug 01 00:04:31 mmazur: why not? Aug 01 00:04:31 just don't use computers, period Aug 01 00:04:33 or phones, or .. Aug 01 00:04:33 . Aug 01 00:04:38 that's secure! Aug 01 00:04:40 mostly Aug 01 00:04:41 weez, wouldn't it be like, slow? Aug 01 00:04:43 anrp: i like the way you think Aug 01 00:04:45 if you wear a tin foil hat Aug 01 00:04:45 As I've been saying, though, any system that doesn't presume server support for proper methods like client ssl certificates is going to be insecure, convoluted, or both. Aug 01 00:04:48 * anrp coughs Aug 01 00:05:13 Ok, ok, firefox surely convulted. Aug 01 00:05:16 mmazur: but the screen would be nice and big Aug 01 00:05:30 mmazur: no worse than browsing directly on the neo Aug 01 00:05:38 mmazur: just easier to read Aug 01 00:05:46 But maybe something simpler... me being an admin -- being able to use an untrusted pc for initiating a secure ssh (without revealing any of my keys to the untrusted computer). Aug 01 00:05:54 weez, good point. Aug 01 00:05:59 Ok. Aug 01 00:06:05 mmazur: Easy: Use an eToken, or cook up software to do it yourself with the Neo Aug 01 00:06:08 With ssh vnc is the best option. Aug 01 00:06:31 The Neo/eToken stores your private keys and acts on requests from the untrusted computer to encrypt or sign messages Aug 01 00:06:47 Which means the untrusted PC can impersonate you only as long as your device is connected Aug 01 00:06:54 we could cook up a vnc client that is keyboard input only Aug 01 00:06:58 (And in fact, with the neo, you could make it pop up a prompt for every signing) Aug 01 00:07:02 so you could type passwords from the neo's screen Aug 01 00:07:05 huh? Aug 01 00:07:09 weez, yup. Aug 01 00:07:13 what exactly does that gain you if the target is the pc? Aug 01 00:07:15 weez, that's what I'm thinking. Aug 01 00:07:29 or point to point encryption of the vnc is what you're thinking? Aug 01 00:07:44 weez, ssh keys on neo, passwords typed on neo, and vnc from the big computer to get a nice display. Aug 01 00:07:45 i dunno if we need to encrypt the vnc Aug 01 00:07:49 That'd work. Aug 01 00:07:51 its gonna show on the screen Aug 01 00:08:54 anyways... Aug 01 00:09:04 oops... gotta go grab a bite to eat Aug 01 00:09:06 laterz Aug 01 00:10:22 oh my sweetness Aug 01 00:10:32 the new GUI does look nice Aug 01 00:10:53 CoreDump|home: got a screenshot url? Aug 01 00:11:02 is that why building the devel image is taking so damn long Aug 01 00:11:02 nope sorry Aug 01 00:11:20 or haven't you greedy gui guys committed Aug 01 00:11:45 well I used alphaones pre-compiled image Aug 01 00:11:47 well, relative to the old ver nice or actually nice? Aug 01 00:11:57 because, to be blunt, the one from about a week ago was terrible Aug 01 00:12:23 CoreDump|home: when is that getting committed? Aug 01 00:12:31 CoreDump|home: by next week? Aug 01 00:12:32 I dunno. Aug 01 00:12:40 soonish Aug 01 00:12:51 http://people.openmoko.org/~alphaone/images/ Aug 01 00:13:21 * anrp fires up dfu-util Aug 01 00:13:52 ok, now how did they do the scrolling thingy Aug 01 00:15:39 .. oops, overwrote the splash by mistake Aug 01 00:15:41 * anrp whistles Aug 01 00:15:46 dfu-util looks pretty rockin good. Aug 01 00:15:55 looks? Aug 01 00:16:01 doesn't have much in the way of looks but it works ~_~ Aug 01 00:16:06 havent used it before, just going over the wiki page. Aug 01 00:16:07 don-o: huh? Aug 01 00:16:15 ahh... k..... Aug 01 00:16:23 * BryceLeo pats don-o's head Aug 01 00:16:43 openmoko: 03zecke * r2593 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007.2/applications/openmoko-feedreader2/ (5 files in 2 dirs): (log message trimmed) Aug 01 00:16:43 openmoko: 2007-08-01 Holger Hans Peter Freyther Aug 01 00:16:43 openmoko: Sketch some ideas how Configuration, the Feed Data (GtkListStore), Aug 01 00:16:43 openmoko: sorting and filtering them and displaying items could work. Aug 01 00:16:43 openmoko: * src/feed-configuration.h: Added. Aug 01 00:16:46 openmoko: * src/feed-data.h: Added. Aug 01 00:16:48 openmoko: * src/feed-item-view.h: Added. Aug 01 00:16:56 * anrp scares off numerous people with C++ templating fun! Aug 01 00:16:57 lets see if my SIM works this time Aug 01 00:19:43 CoreDump|home: survey says?? Aug 01 00:19:54 ? Aug 01 00:20:02 CoreDump|home: (about the sim) Aug 01 00:20:23 what survey? Aug 01 00:21:00 CoreDump|home: ... you've never seen Family Feud Aug 01 00:21:12 Is the third UART unused in the Neo? Aug 01 00:21:14 I don't think so Aug 01 00:21:43 CoreDump|home: oh.... well it's a saying that when used in this context means "so how'd it go" Aug 01 00:21:52 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Buying_Interest_List]] [[Unresolved_Hardware_Questions]] [[User:Historybuff/fingerinputidea]] [[SH1]] [[Talk:OpenMoko_Local_Groups:_Braga]] Aug 01 00:21:58 well, didn't work :\ Aug 01 00:22:13 ahh... well that sucks Aug 01 00:28:09 i have this terrible urge to change all the date's on the bb files to now, and snag all the latest from svn Aug 01 00:28:19 .. Aug 01 00:28:19 just to see what happens Aug 01 00:28:34 that image that CoreDump|home posted is almost worse -_- Aug 01 00:28:45 lol Aug 01 00:28:49 worse how? Aug 01 00:29:00 well first of all the background for the numbers in the dial is too dark Aug 01 00:29:01 I didn't say it was useable Aug 01 00:29:04 i can't see the numbers Aug 01 00:29:15 the the font for the numbers is too large so i only see the bottom 25% of the digit Aug 01 00:29:19 anrp: it's a work in progress, its slowly getting hashed out Aug 01 00:29:24 i know. Aug 01 00:29:29 still.. Aug 01 00:29:37 haha can't fix everything at once Aug 01 00:29:41 i was under the vague impression it was getting better Aug 01 00:29:43 not worse ~_~ Aug 01 00:30:14 haha, it is getting better, trust me Aug 01 00:30:16 it's getting bettr Aug 01 00:30:26 SpeedEvil: (third uart) It is IMHO. But CTS and RTS pins are already used otherwise Aug 01 00:30:50 i think someone set the dpi up wrong on that image Aug 01 00:31:56 i think my next personal patch is to make mrxvt the default terminal Aug 01 00:32:00 i like backspace thanks Aug 01 00:32:06 as opposed to..? Aug 01 00:32:08 anrp: Actually dpi setting is *right* in that image in contrast to the other images. Aug 01 00:32:30 oh, so development has been ongoing with the wrong dpi in that case? Aug 01 00:32:54 anrp: whatever the heck the standard one is "GTKTerm2" Aug 01 00:33:06 alphaone: AIUI, there are no CTS/RTS pins on the third uart Aug 01 00:33:49 alphaone: when is the new gui getting commited? do ya know> Aug 01 00:33:50 ?* Aug 01 00:33:59 The pins may be shared though. Aug 01 00:34:11 or is it already at svn but the bb files are pulling a diff release? Aug 01 00:35:00 BryceLeo: It is in oe.dev. Just stop using the overlay. But it's still rough. Less usable than the old image at the moment Aug 01 00:35:47 alphaone: ahh ok dually noted Aug 01 00:37:30 BryceLeo: Currently we're trying to get everything in shape to use the new UI framework Aug 01 00:37:35 alphaone: Ah - the uart2 rx/tx can be uart1's rts/cts Aug 01 00:37:40 But it's taking some time Aug 01 00:37:57 SpeedEvil: Yeah, something like that. Aug 01 00:38:08 It's some time that I looked that up Aug 01 00:38:43 *yawn* Aug 01 00:38:54 I'm just going through all the datasheets and stuff I can find before I get hardware. Aug 01 00:39:03 tomorrow is, methinks, nagging and bug reporting day Aug 01 00:39:23 Hmm. Connected to the GPS, so probably can't be reused trivially. Aug 01 00:39:40 what do you need flow control for? Aug 01 00:39:48 anyone get a confirmation email this week about the second set shipping? Aug 01 00:39:48 minthome: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (and also SH1_FAQ, Neo1973, Developer_preview and Neo1973_Hardware#GTA01Bv4 pages) (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.) Aug 01 00:39:58 SpeedEvil: do you know any discussion of switching framebuffers between x and other apps Aug 01 00:41:16 Writchie: no. Aug 01 00:41:19 alphaone: is there any api for that that framework up yet? or will that come available more as it's finished up? Aug 01 00:41:56 BryceLeo: the libraries are in OM-2007.2/libraries/ Aug 01 00:42:04 Or what do you mean? Aug 01 00:42:23 SpeedEvil: guess i'll wait till qvga mode is working in driver and then have a look Aug 01 00:42:28 alphaone: ahh ok no api just library digging? Aug 01 00:42:52 BryceLeo: Pretty much at this point, yeah :-) Aug 01 00:44:19 or kernel digging in that case Aug 01 00:44:36 There are several things that would be good in terms of screen. Aug 01 00:44:37 alphaone: lol that works for me Aug 01 00:44:40 does the LCD controller really support 320x240 though? it's pretty unclear from the s2c docs Aug 01 00:44:45 *s3c Aug 01 00:44:47 8 bit pallette mode. Aug 01 00:45:03 all modes supported by controller Aug 01 00:45:05 This reduces bus bandwidth lots - letting you slow the clock significantly. Aug 01 00:45:33 Virtual screen mode - this can help scrolling in some cases by large amounts. Aug 01 00:45:52 using DMA controllers as blitters. Aug 01 00:46:19 well there is one more thing; its nice that there's finally hardware to work on but we're also under the shadow of "v2 is moar gooder!" Aug 01 00:46:26 Indeed. Aug 01 00:46:51 All three of these may be invalidated to an extent by the accel chip. Aug 01 00:47:11 DMA controller in this chip are not flexible enough for this on first look Aug 01 00:47:15 Though 256 colour mode is actually moderately important. Aug 01 00:47:27 It's flexible enough for vertical moves of large blocks. Aug 01 00:48:07 Moderately - unless the accel chip has onboard RAM - does it? Aug 01 00:48:16 it does Aug 01 00:48:19 v2 syndrome is already at work - adding bloat due to accelerated Aug 01 00:48:41 I'm unsure what the accel chip adds frankly. Aug 01 00:48:50 like the imageon w100 ... which again suffered from a severe lack of docs Aug 01 00:48:54 Other than the ability to play random video. Aug 01 00:48:59 there's no non-nda docs for the accel chip Aug 01 00:49:03 and 3D! Aug 01 00:49:05 hmm, not sure about the UI on that image, doesn't seem to take advantage of the resolution available Aug 01 00:49:06 can't forget quake Aug 01 00:49:08 adds the missing 2D blt that the cirrus chips have Aug 01 00:49:08 !! Aug 01 00:49:11 onboard Aug 01 00:49:38 Zaireeka: do you typically hold your phone at 20cm from your eyes? Aug 01 00:49:53 Zaireeka: because if you don't, you can't see all the resolution. Aug 01 00:50:32 i never understood the logic of this dpi Aug 01 00:50:49 however, if can substitute for clear-type like stuff Aug 01 00:50:58 It can. Aug 01 00:51:03 It does antialias in hardware. Aug 01 00:51:04 the unneeded bits cost Aug 01 00:51:09 logic of dpi? Aug 01 00:51:10 (the eye) Aug 01 00:51:16 * anrp incomprendo Aug 01 00:51:39 dpi is just a physical quality Aug 01 00:51:42 best integrator around Aug 01 00:52:00 SpeedEvil: fair point Aug 01 00:52:25 i think the main benefit of vga is easy first porting Aug 01 00:52:38 except for the portrait orientation Aug 01 00:52:38 that's a terrible way to approach it mostly because of the dpi Aug 01 00:52:48 i think the accel does the flip as well Aug 01 00:53:01 vga apps are often designed for a reasonable fraction of a foot Aug 01 00:53:08 the flip lets you run unmodified vga apps like games Aug 01 00:53:25 Not with no buttons. Aug 01 00:53:33 Well - one. Aug 01 00:53:36 touch screen - Aug 01 00:53:42 missle command will be real cool Aug 01 00:54:02 no way too easy with touch scrren Aug 01 00:54:21 not in level 2^^21 Aug 01 00:54:38 err Aug 01 00:55:17 * anrp bows to the person who has managed to complete 2 million MC levels Aug 01 00:55:18 i think i'd rather have a pad than a hole Aug 01 00:55:19 But it takes a while to get there. Aug 01 00:55:28 There's a way if you only need one button a time Aug 01 00:55:35 I.e. no multiple buttons at the same time Aug 01 00:55:46 Simply create a "virtual" gamepad on the screen Aug 01 00:55:53 ugh Aug 01 00:55:53 therefore making it not-vga Aug 01 00:55:54 ;/ Aug 01 00:56:08 maybe a little bt pad Aug 01 00:56:12 anrp: no, _overlaying_ the screen Aug 01 00:56:18 and obscuring it? Aug 01 00:56:24 oh you mean something physical? Aug 01 00:56:26 * mjr pats his BT keypad Aug 01 00:56:32 anrp: yeah, that's the only problem with my idea Aug 01 00:56:32 i heard something about that Aug 01 00:56:40 got it, a bt game pad that fits in the useless hole Aug 01 00:56:43 bits of plastic poking the screen Aug 01 00:56:46 anrp: your fingers end up in front of the screen when pressing the "buttons" Aug 01 00:56:50 hole isn't useless ~_~ Aug 01 00:56:57 you get a fancy OM strap for it! Aug 01 00:57:00 i know - the beloved strap Aug 01 00:57:22 rather have the game pad Aug 01 00:57:33 or other nav device Aug 01 00:58:07 seriously, there is just about enough volume Aug 01 00:58:19 except volume is too low Aug 01 00:58:30 english is fun Aug 01 00:58:31 ..? Aug 01 00:58:45 volume as in space Aug 01 00:58:52 volume as in production quantity Aug 01 00:59:00 the hole is also home to the mic, so you'd want to free it up for, you know, talking Aug 01 00:59:07 what we need is a "hacker port" like the one in the bebox Aug 01 00:59:12 bah Aug 01 00:59:17 who needs to talk to a machine Aug 01 00:59:28 us the BT headset to talk Aug 01 01:00:14 given the files on http://people.openmoko.org/~alphaone/images, how would i construct a qemu commandline to run the image. ive tried this without success: arm-softmmu/qemu-system-arm -M neo -m 130 -usb -show-cursor -mtdblock u-boot-gta01bv4-r11_cc3023b9f95d7ac959a764471a65001062aecf41_0_2375.bin -kernel uImage-2.6.21.5-moko10-r1-fic-gta01.bin Aug 01 01:03:16 ... silence ... Aug 01 01:03:56 (crickets chirping) Aug 01 01:04:06 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Qemu#Manual_setup Aug 01 01:04:10 don-o: you need to flash it first Aug 01 01:04:25 don-o: do something like mokomakefile's flash-qemu-local Aug 01 01:04:39 i have to 'flash' the emulator? i thought it self-flashed on startup. Aug 01 01:04:47 don-o: no, it doesn't Aug 01 01:05:00 * don-o is caught in a pandora's box/klein bottle qemu quandry Aug 01 01:05:02 you have to dump the uboot image to a larger block of memory (dd if=/dev/zero of=/blockdev bs=1M count=65; dd if=/path/to/uboot of=/blockdev bs=512 conv=notrunc) Aug 01 01:05:04 don-o: you have to do a very complex sequence of steps, quite similar to what is done to flash a real phone Aug 01 01:05:15 then once you're in uboot you can "flash" the other bits Aug 01 01:05:18 don-o: it's all done by a mytical perl script known by the name of "flash.sh" Aug 01 01:05:36 perl? Aug 01 01:05:41 * anrp looks at the .sh Aug 01 01:05:48 ok thanks for the input. Aug 01 01:05:54 anrp: look at how mokomakefile does it ;-) Aug 01 01:06:17 mokomakefile simply does "( cd build/qemu && openmoko/flash.sh ../tmp/deploy/images )" Aug 01 01:06:28 with sweat, blood, tears, and a not insignificant amount of hope? Aug 01 01:06:48 as in "i hope nothing is broken" Aug 01 01:07:02 * anrp coughs Aug 01 01:07:08 lol Aug 01 01:07:12 i'm not really being helpful, i guess Aug 01 01:07:34 which gives us the hint: create an empty directory, put the three files there, and run the flash.sh script in the qemu directory with the directory with the three files as the argument Aug 01 01:08:02 does uboot startup looking at the hw serial port for commands? Aug 01 01:10:24 anrp: I think it does, else how would you get to it via the debug board's serial mode? Aug 01 01:10:50 SpeedEvil: looking at the lcm datasheet and lcd driver bits, it doesn't look like anything in this supports hw scaling of 320x240 to 640x480 Aug 01 01:10:59 eh probably, i haven't hooked up the debug board yet Aug 01 01:11:11 .. i haven't really done anything with it yet, too much other stuff to do Aug 01 01:11:51 i have complained though D: Aug 01 01:12:31 and also nothing about rotation, although you can flip both driver signals and get a 180 deg rotated image Aug 01 01:12:55 but not the 90deg rotations Aug 01 01:13:24 hm, too bad my lastlog doesn't reach the spot where somebody pointed to an address with (out-of-date, needs-work) qvga patches Aug 01 01:13:43 SpeedEvil: you have the datasheet for the controller on the lcm Aug 01 01:14:01 there's one for what i hope is a compatible lcm module in the svn tree Aug 01 01:14:05 this is where the 240x320 is supposed to be Aug 01 01:14:07 under developers/gordon Aug 01 01:14:14 anrp, anyway, apparently the openmoko guys still think the display can hack it :] Aug 01 01:14:47 hey all Aug 01 01:14:56 oh? Aug 01 01:15:00 hmm, maybe its not a compatible module Aug 01 01:15:08 as expected there is no datasheed for the exact part used Aug 01 01:15:17 http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/openmoko-kernel/2007-March/000075.html Aug 01 01:15:33 ZerothCloned: hi Aug 01 01:15:52 ZerothCloned: (btw, when you welcomed me earlier, I wasn't here, it was just my client autoreconnecting ;-) ) Aug 01 01:18:17 http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/neo1973-hardware/2007-July/000178.html Aug 01 01:18:21 a shame, but expected Aug 01 01:19:18 darn, that sucks. :-( Aug 01 01:19:23 what does that part do? Aug 01 01:19:45 oh, I see, its the lcd IC Aug 01 01:19:50 the datasheet which has the info and timings for the registers isn't available Aug 01 01:20:01 so anything we get has already been scrubbed by legal teams Aug 01 01:20:18 to "not reveal anything of strategic business importance" Aug 01 01:20:36 yeah, more likely the manufacturer copied the asic from someone else and doesn't want to reveal it Aug 01 01:20:40 basically, any hidden commands, secrets, tricks etc for getting the best out of the part Aug 01 01:20:54 Its Toshiba. Their stuff works best for them, and no one else. Aug 01 01:21:09 it's toshiba-compatible-maybe Aug 01 01:21:39 probably made by the lowest bidder in an area that doesn't care squat about IP (not necessarily a bad thing) Aug 01 01:21:51 true :/ Aug 01 01:22:08 at least you have the driver, even if its been "scrubbed" Aug 01 01:22:14 true Aug 01 01:22:16 a starting point Aug 01 01:22:19 to the contrary, lcd controllers are pretty proprietary and first class Aug 01 01:22:21 and... so... experimentation! Aug 01 01:22:34 first class? Aug 01 01:22:36 its competitive game between major japanese suppliers Aug 01 01:22:41 * anrp doesn't understand the description Aug 01 01:22:54 it's not japanese to begin with ~_~ Aug 01 01:22:54 yeah, the less power, the better the quality, etc, the more customers Aug 01 01:23:04 the toshiba display Aug 01 01:23:24 well toshiba is Aug 01 01:23:42 i don't think FIC has the full info on the diplay controllers Aug 01 01:23:46 i was just saying that i think it was likely built by the person with the least scruples and minimum quality levels Aug 01 01:23:51 since thats how parts usually are Aug 01 01:23:59 not lcd's Aug 01 01:24:05 its very big business Aug 01 01:24:10 you know that .. how? Aug 01 01:24:13 especially mobile Aug 01 01:24:15 lcds are very important. Aug 01 01:24:24 there are 1 billion cellphone per year Aug 01 01:24:29 higher volume than PC's by far Aug 01 01:24:33 true Aug 01 01:24:35 if your lcds are low-quality, you lose a shit tonne of customers Aug 01 01:24:47 because then they become liable for replacements and repairs Aug 01 01:24:55 so they're likely made to reasonably consistant levels of quality Aug 01 01:25:08 that doesn't say anything about the drivers asics though Aug 01 01:25:23 I wonder who Sony Ericcson gets their lcds from... Aug 01 01:25:26 have you ever looked at one of these Aug 01 01:25:39 these ? Aug 01 01:25:53 there are usually both driver's for row and columns and the controller Aug 01 01:25:59 those sony ericsson phones are freaking tough. Had one model driven over by a customer(accidentally) and only a crack in the screen. And the screen still worked. Aug 01 01:26:00 very high tech chip on glass stuff Aug 01 01:27:55 Question: will the wifi chip+antenna be locked down by proprietary stuff as well? Aug 01 01:28:18 proprietary firmware on the chip Aug 01 01:28:21 open source driver Aug 01 01:28:26 similar to the gsm Aug 01 01:28:32 or BT Aug 01 01:28:52 okay... will there be info released on how to interface with the firmware? in addition to the driver? Aug 01 01:29:15 what do you mean? Aug 01 01:29:27 no. Aug 01 01:29:30 probably not for changing RF levels, etc. Aug 01 01:29:33 It's firmware. Aug 01 01:29:46 It's atheros. Aug 01 01:29:52 So you can do sniffing. Aug 01 01:29:55 ah... thanks SpeedEvil. Aug 01 01:30:00 But not actually code your own firmware. Aug 01 01:30:06 Which would be nice. Aug 01 01:30:32 ei, mah neo has a green circuit board Aug 01 01:30:32 well, my concern was that of doing both ad-hoc connections to another phone/computer + a connection to a wireless router. Aug 01 01:30:35 where'd the red go D: Aug 01 01:30:38 at the same time. Aug 01 01:30:49 anrp: pics! Aug 01 01:31:00 If you've got it open. Aug 01 01:31:04 i do, actually Aug 01 01:31:10 explicit! YES! Aug 01 01:31:19 Pics with dimensional referernces of the case would be good. Aug 01 01:31:28 Even if you don't have a micrometer. Aug 01 01:31:43 i do, but it's a 10 minute walk away Aug 01 01:31:43 any news on ATT sims? Aug 01 01:31:52 Just a high res picture taken from a reasonable distance, with a camera will help. Aug 01 01:31:57 I found an article today talking about how the AT&T plans are making people get very very expensive international roaming plans on the iphone Aug 01 01:31:58 And a ruler Aug 01 01:32:09 one guy got a 3000 buck bill XD Aug 01 01:32:38 Basically so people can get an idea of how the case is setup. Specifically the inside of the front cover has no pics so far. Aug 01 01:33:41 hey guys just got my neo and i got a question Aug 01 01:33:54 anybody gotten sound working with call? Aug 01 01:34:01 calls* Aug 01 01:34:04 boo Aug 01 01:34:12 rf shields are soldered down Aug 01 01:34:18 cept for the gsm one Aug 01 01:34:20 :/ Aug 01 01:34:38 sublime, the gsmheadset.state works, gsmhandset.states that I've gotten are buggy Aug 01 01:35:15 haven't gotten around to looking at their contents... Aug 01 01:35:30 ok, im trying to follow the wiki to get it on but im having trouble getting internet to the device Aug 01 01:37:47 it seems to not like going from 192.168.0.202 to 192.168.1.202 Aug 01 01:38:18 the Neo image has a netmask of 255.255.255.0 Aug 01 01:38:19 so, no Aug 01 01:38:26 mjr: didn't we have already at least two discussions on this IRC channel saying the handset state files accidentally had the int speakers enabled? Aug 01 01:38:34 isn't it supposed to be 192.168.0.200 and 192.168.0.202 ? Aug 01 01:38:46 maybe but not everyone is on the irtc channel 24/7 Aug 01 01:39:11 What would be the size and the time for installing OpenMoko in my Ubuntu 7.04 system Aug 01 01:39:12 I haven't gotten internet to the neo yet Aug 01 01:39:14 cesarb, I'm sure that was at least the second one. I still haven't got a working file, though, and as said, haven't bothered to look into it myself. I didn't buy this thing to make calls ;) Aug 01 01:39:15 sublime: that's what IRC client logs are useful for ;-) Aug 01 01:39:21 cesarb: you reported why it doesn't work, which is fine, but not how to fix it. Aug 01 01:39:44 anandanbu: Don't know size exactly, but time is about 15 minutes from a clean HDD. Aug 01 01:39:57 Writchie: I'm just repeating what i remember... I don't recall seeing how to fix it yet ;-) Aug 01 01:40:28 s/remember/recall/ Aug 01 01:40:29 cesarb meant: Writchie: I'm just repeating what i recall... I don't recall seeing how to fix it yet ;-) Aug 01 01:40:42 understand Aug 01 01:41:12 i'm sure its trivial for the person who set the file up and left if it enabled. Aug 01 01:41:15 ...the mixer is rather complex Aug 01 01:41:21 exactly Aug 01 01:41:46 there are lots of things to explore, alsa is not first on my list Aug 01 01:41:54 http://atocha.mit.edu/~anrp/openneo/ Aug 01 01:41:59 everyone loves electronics rape! Aug 01 01:42:10 but does it blend? Aug 01 01:42:17 i'll let someone else do that Aug 01 01:42:31 seriously, fic should pay for it Aug 01 01:42:47 excellent publicity if they can get the Will it Blend people to blend it Aug 01 01:43:03 yah, as a PR stunt it wouldn't be bad Aug 01 01:43:08 sagacis:whats the speed of connection you have got Aug 01 01:43:33 anrp: Are you in cambridge? Aug 01 01:43:54 perhaps D: Aug 01 01:44:14 Aye. I'm across the river @ neu.edu Aug 01 01:44:42 I was on 4Gb cable Aug 01 01:45:14 mm ill put it back together now ~_~ Aug 01 01:45:27 Sublime: I did get network access on the device. I just need to add host lookup Aug 01 01:46:23 mm Aug 01 01:46:27 took the lcm off Aug 01 01:46:34 nothing really interesting about it Aug 01 01:46:51 model TD028TTEC1 sn 720N1AA0547943 Aug 01 01:48:05 ei, SpeedEvil, the gps rts/cts signals are clearly marked test points on the front of the board Aug 01 01:48:16 Hmm. Aug 01 01:48:34 see 1633, top left Aug 01 01:48:34 Interesting - that might be a 'free' serial port if the GPS is off. Aug 01 01:48:40 depending on how it's off. Aug 01 01:48:42 a bit obscured by the lcm, but its there Aug 01 01:48:57 1633? Aug 01 01:49:04 thats also the spot with the most open free space inside the case Aug 01 01:49:07 IMG_1633 Aug 01 01:49:12 er, 1344 Aug 01 01:49:13 wtf? Aug 01 01:49:17 * anrp looks at the time Aug 01 01:49:19 Err - where? Aug 01 01:49:26 Oh Aug 01 01:49:31 http://atocha.mit.edu/~anrp/openneo/ Aug 01 01:51:45 imma put it back together now.. did you want something else? Aug 01 01:53:56 SpeedEvil: made a gsm call fine - dead battery - USB power went over 500ma Aug 01 01:54:03 Nope. Aug 01 01:54:09 Writchie: on the battery? Aug 01 01:54:16 on draw from the USB Aug 01 01:54:23 Eww. Aug 01 01:54:28 Writchie: how much over? Aug 01 01:54:38 20 - 30 ma Aug 01 01:54:39 Writchie: if it's too much, it'll trip most polyfuses... Aug 01 01:55:08 this meter is not too precision but charge current matched that of other reports Aug 01 01:55:25 Writchie: hm, you did it with a dead battery, right? then it should be a simple matter of teaching gsmd to turn off the module when the battery is dead... Aug 01 01:55:43 not always easy to tell how dead the battery is Aug 01 01:55:50 depends on how instrumented Aug 01 01:56:13 have to look at USB spec but I think 500ma is a hard limit Aug 01 01:56:55 yay it still works ~_~ Aug 01 01:57:39 aw crap forgot to put the screws back in Aug 01 01:57:44 * anrp has 2 extra parts -_- Aug 01 01:58:12 Consider the extra parts a bonus gift. Aug 01 01:58:19 there are always extra parts Aug 01 01:58:42 well it almost doesn' Aug 01 01:58:45 t need them Aug 01 01:59:13 It's that sock in the dryer that vanishes -- it emerges back into our dimension as an extra electronic or mechanical component. Aug 01 01:59:18 anrp: depends on how many G it has to deal with ;-) Aug 01 01:59:34 hopefully a single digit Aug 01 02:04:18 night all Aug 01 02:06:32 SpeedEvil: We seem to spike 50ma over limit for 200ms Aug 01 02:06:56 can't seem to find the pattern Aug 01 02:07:02 seems related to near end talker Aug 01 02:07:10 gsm saying hi Aug 01 02:07:29 Writchie: GSM TX maybe? Aug 01 02:07:35 Writchie: it has silence detection... Aug 01 02:07:46 Writchie: and TX is the most power-intensive part Aug 01 02:07:48 could be a spike in the silence detection Aug 01 02:07:49 gsm calls are (always?) full bandwidth Aug 01 02:07:53 might be processing Aug 01 02:08:39 anrp: I find it hard to believe it would transmit at 100% power for 100% of the slot just to send a few bits of "hey, it's quite quiet around here" to the base station Aug 01 02:08:44 when on a call the gsm power profile is pretty stable Aug 01 02:09:04 cesarb: it's tdm Aug 01 02:09:10 i think it would, actually Aug 01 02:09:15 it's a fixed bitrate codec so .. Aug 01 02:09:16 it's a circuit switched channel Aug 01 02:09:22 anrp: it would be wasteful to the battery Aug 01 02:09:28 noone said it made sense4 Aug 01 02:09:38 anrp: and IIRC it does several hairy tricks with the channel coding... Aug 01 02:09:57 mm? Aug 01 02:10:28 I recall reading about the air part of GSM some time ago... it's quite complex Aug 01 02:10:31 50ma is 250mw Aug 01 02:10:46 thats a good chunk Aug 01 02:11:07 the point is when a dead battery and charging on a GSM call it might trip the current limit Aug 01 02:11:09 considering the battery is only 4.44wh Aug 01 02:11:10 on some PCs Aug 01 02:11:30 the only usb ports i've ever seen with a hard limit at 500ma is the g4 powerbook Aug 01 02:11:31 wHr is not w Aug 01 02:11:50 which is bloody annoying Aug 01 02:11:55 since nothing follows the standard :P Aug 01 02:12:24 usually you get an A per port before they get mad Aug 01 02:13:31 sure would like to have a fixed gsmhandset.state Aug 01 02:13:52 anrp: the neo _tries_ to follow the standard... (and, if Writchie is correct, fails) Aug 01 02:14:01 yes, i know Aug 01 02:14:04 i'm just saying ;/ Aug 01 02:14:18 it may not actually be failing, it's only a 200ms glitch. Aug 01 02:14:26 2.5W isn't much juice Aug 01 02:14:28 will have to look more exactly at the standard Aug 01 02:14:44 * cesarb wonders if the fault isn't with the standard itself... 500mA @ 5V is way too few watts Aug 01 02:14:50 yeah :P Aug 01 02:14:58 i think that was actually a UL limit on low-power dc Aug 01 02:15:01 500ma is just right Aug 01 02:15:13 nothing to do with UL Aug 01 02:15:18 no 500ma is crap Aug 01 02:15:23 2.5" disks needs 1a to spin! Aug 01 02:15:30 Writchie: hm... isn't GSM 2W max TX power? that would leave only 0.5W for ALL the other chips, plus the charger Aug 01 02:15:46 2W is a burst Aug 01 02:15:50 hopefully the caps can sap up the spike Aug 01 02:15:52 1/8 duty cycle typically Aug 01 02:15:55 maybe they aren't big enough Aug 01 02:16:12 Is there an irc client on the neo by default? Aug 01 02:16:20 irc? .. don't think so Aug 01 02:16:38 if you managed to get standard mozilla running then you'd have ChatZilla(tm) though! Aug 01 02:16:39 I got the web running, but w/o java, I can't do much. Aug 01 02:16:46 ... which is a terrible irc client ~_~ Aug 01 02:16:51 I thought I could at least irc Aug 01 02:17:15 there are a few http-html-only irc clients out there Aug 01 02:17:23 but they do server side irc connections so they're a bit hokey Aug 01 02:17:47 and also probably mostly flooded out of existance Aug 01 02:18:04 I could try compiling ii Aug 01 02:18:14 irssi or bitchx should work Aug 01 02:18:30 you could probably take them out of debian-arm and have them work with no compiling assuming the right libraries are in there Aug 01 02:18:41 anrp: the neo would get kicked out of every single IRC channel for trying to "irc as root!!!!!111one" Aug 01 02:18:51 lol phail D: Aug 01 02:19:08 or remote root ftl Aug 01 02:19:11 anyway ~_~ Aug 01 02:19:14 Awesome! Aug 01 02:19:23 I could do sic Aug 01 02:19:30 i've irc'd as root before Aug 01 02:19:41 xchat said in BIG BAD LETTERS that i was a bad boy Aug 01 02:19:45 i didn't mind though :'( Aug 01 02:22:32 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Category:OpenMoko_Local_Groups:_Portugal]] [[OpenMoko_Local_Groups:_Braga]] [[OpenMoko_Local_Groups:_Portugal]] [[OpenMoko_Local_Groups]] [[User_talk:THe_IkkE]] [[P1_Owners]] [[OpenMoko_Local_groups:_Boston]] [[Neo1973_Hardware]] Aug 01 02:24:43 i am here again for begging damn shipment Aug 01 02:25:39 oh man Aug 01 02:28:19 shipment?? heh! I think most people just want a little information! Aug 01 02:28:41 Most times when you place an order, they'll tell you if it's backordered, or else provide an estimated ship date... Aug 01 02:28:58 We have this: Aug 01 02:29:00 ~counter Aug 01 02:29:02 i made an order july 9 Aug 01 02:29:09 but i did not get it Aug 01 02:29:14 i am in big trouble now Aug 01 02:29:54 i said YES_I_DO 3 times, sean told me that system did not take it. Aug 01 02:30:18 July 11. I don't even know if the YES_I_DO worked. Aug 01 02:30:25 2 times rejected, last time no response, which I thought it went through but it did not Aug 01 02:30:28 There's absolutely NO feedback from FIC Aug 01 02:30:51 Was it supposed to respond to the YES_I_DO? Aug 01 02:30:56 no Aug 01 02:31:03 ...it should, but it doesn't Aug 01 02:31:08 Sean told me that my order did not go through, he helped make it through and ask me to wait another week. Aug 01 02:31:53 oh man, everyone is getting it except me. Feel so bad about this. Aug 01 02:32:07 Well, since FIC won't tell us (someone asked outright on the mailing list) if and when a second batch is being made, it could be somewhere between a month and a year for mine to show up! Aug 01 02:32:07 i think you are far from alone... sadly Aug 01 02:32:28 I heard mid-august for the arrival of the 2nd batch (on the community mailing list) Aug 01 02:32:46 That's the second 500 that were already manufactured. Aug 01 02:32:57 middle of augest? U kidding me right? Aug 01 02:33:19 Based on the numbers assigned, I'm well into the second 1000, and we've not heard that any beyond 1000 have been even manufactured. Aug 01 02:34:07 one of my customer wants to do a mass produciton with NEO, now i am not going to make it. Damn it Aug 01 02:34:14 What I'm worried about now is that they'll ship it to me finally, and then start shipping the P2 models a couple weeks later. That'll be fun to explain the the wife. Aug 01 02:34:17 http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2007-July/008603.html Aug 01 02:34:38 heh Aug 01 02:34:46 that's only if you believe P2 will be on time ;) Aug 01 02:34:52 True. Aug 01 02:35:27 which is why I didn't "oh, let's wait for the wifi one", because the wait would be way too long Aug 01 02:35:51 Who needs wifi? I've got BT. Aug 01 02:36:01 * cesarb doesn't quite believe P2 is getting to the first paid customer before the next year Aug 01 02:36:10 sagacis: BT is way too short range Aug 01 02:36:13 a lot of people would like it, and besides you can't really develop apps for hardware that doesn't exist/you don't have Aug 01 02:36:22 for things like the 3d accel etc Aug 01 02:36:34 Actually, I was hoping that I could contribute to the development effort, but I've pretty much run out of what I can do with the emulator. So, now I wait. Aug 01 02:36:44 run out? D: Aug 01 02:36:52 come on guys, be more realistic Aug 01 02:37:08 openmoko is a comany now, they suppose to make money from it. Aug 01 02:37:30 mwester: You could fix the terminfo for the terminal window to get rid of the stupid delete boxes... Aug 01 02:37:32 p1 must do a mass production before they will go to p2 Aug 01 02:37:37 p2 with wifi. Aug 01 02:37:42 ^H ftw! Aug 01 02:37:43 Yeah. Without real bluetooth hardware and GPS, it's hard to prove a concept to be viable. So that project is rather on hold. Aug 01 02:37:59 Or FIC does not care about their investment - I do not think so Aug 01 02:38:13 i'm going with a lot going on Aug 01 02:38:23 The investment for FIC is less than what they pay for the annual company picnic, I bet! Aug 01 02:38:33 ;/ now now Aug 01 02:38:39 i highly doubt that Aug 01 02:38:50 yes, i know that openmoko has a very hard time. Aug 01 02:38:55 .. Aug 01 02:38:59 They didn't pay for the engineering, there's no software... they basically assembled the boards. Aug 01 02:39:25 They aren't even shipping or taking orders -- the development team wrote the CGI to take the orders, negotiated with UPS, and are shipping! Aug 01 02:39:31 What is FIC doing? Aug 01 02:39:52 selling to OEMs Aug 01 02:39:54 not end users Aug 01 02:40:09 To be honest, openmoko needs to do a mass production Aug 01 02:40:10 The original OpenMoko team have worked their tails off, they deserve a round of applause -- not FIC (yet) Aug 01 02:40:11 er, they are OEM.. selling to badge engineering firms Aug 01 02:40:33 not just prove the NEO, about also to prove the whole openmoko thing Aug 01 02:40:35 not end users Aug 01 02:41:13 yes, they need to get this phone on market. Aug 01 02:41:15 anrp: I think that's exactly the issue. Aug 01 02:41:39 Perhaps there needed to be a distributor in the arrangement Aug 01 02:41:41 even if FIC is a reputable mainboard company, openmoko is a brand new segment of fic. Aug 01 02:41:49 i am trying to close a deal with this, but i think i may not be able to this right now Aug 01 02:41:56 its a new venture for them, they are not tacking it onto their old processes. Aug 01 02:42:06 i wouldn't make anything depend on getting hardware, not till they've gone through the backlog Aug 01 02:42:18 rushforth, this makes no difference Aug 01 02:42:20 Maybe two distributors - one in Europe, since it seems that Europe is getting the "short end of the stick" so to speak, in terms of delivery and shipping costs, etc. Aug 01 02:42:36 its a very cool device, and as an embedded platform it comes highly recommended Aug 01 02:42:38 jackey: apparently, it does, or maybe it would have been more efficient :) Aug 01 02:42:43 FIC needs to sell hardware as many as they can right? Aug 01 02:42:44 as a phone... not su much (but that'll get fixed eventually) Aug 01 02:43:04 i don't think they are exactly turning their heads away. its just the reality of a new venture. Aug 01 02:43:10 wow, i just got a grand total of 1.8kbit on verizon's data network? Aug 01 02:43:14 ... Aug 01 02:43:16 lol Aug 01 02:43:41 how many programs do you write that run perfectly the first time :) Aug 01 02:43:49 rushforth, they cut 100 engineers team in Shanghai Aug 01 02:43:51 i got hello world right! Aug 01 02:43:58 w000t Aug 01 02:44:26 if only running a company were similar to hello world :) Aug 01 02:44:35 its simple Aug 01 02:44:42 product goes out, money comes in Aug 01 02:44:43 anyway, that is something else. Aug 01 02:44:46 no big deal right? Aug 01 02:44:50 * anrp coughs Aug 01 02:44:53 * rushforth smiles Aug 01 02:45:26 sheesh, this verizon data card is terribly slow Aug 01 02:45:28 5k * 600 did not cove the cost at all Aug 01 02:45:33 theres gotta be something wrong with it.. ~_~ Aug 01 02:45:52 yeah, it's verizon. Aug 01 02:45:58 ;/ Aug 01 02:46:00 anrp: rev A or 0 ? Aug 01 02:46:05 but i'm using it in a robot Aug 01 02:46:10 Yes, but to follow your analogy, why not look to code reuse? Surely there are other companies that could have handled parts not essential to the "moko-ness", such as processing orders, and shipping. Aug 01 02:46:13 A, maybe Aug 01 02:46:31 what area ? Aug 01 02:46:32 whatever it is has got to be better than 1.8kbit though Aug 01 02:46:36 boston D: Aug 01 02:46:55 here in los angeles, i get 1mbit solid on my t60 :) Aug 01 02:47:05 mwester, u r right. Aug 01 02:47:40 54% packet loss? Aug 01 02:47:42 ... Aug 01 02:47:47 that's barely a link Aug 01 02:47:53 yipe Aug 01 02:48:08 btw, what u guys do about NEO? Aug 01 02:48:20 hm? Aug 01 02:50:54 hm Aug 01 02:51:00 now i get a consistant ping time at least Aug 01 02:51:05 flow control D: Aug 01 02:53:24 guess that's important for once Aug 01 02:54:33 this is still terrible. wtf Aug 01 02:56:23 maybe i need that new usb-gsm driver module.. Aug 01 02:56:55 1.18kbit! wtf **** ENDING LOGGING AT Wed Aug 01 02:59:57 2007