**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Thu Sep 27 02:59:57 2007 Sep 27 03:00:55 I get the distinct impression that something went wrong when I patched that kernel. Sep 27 03:01:22 booting now Sep 27 03:03:53 Hey, my modem's responding. :-) Sep 27 03:04:17 "radio power up failed" :( Sep 27 03:05:42 http://cl1p.net/gsm.log/ Sep 27 03:06:36 +CME: ERROR 23 Sep 27 03:19:47 sagacis: 23 is "memory failure"? Sep 27 03:21:11 cesarb: Hmph. Not good, I guess. Sep 27 03:22:03 could it be a simcard prob? Sep 27 03:22:34 sagacis: I don't see that error in that log Sep 27 03:22:54 It came later, after I was messing with the panel applet Sep 27 03:23:11 sagacis: 23 looks more like something to do with phonebook/sms/whatever memory, which is a unlikely answer for a modem powering up command Sep 27 03:23:57 strange then. I shouldn't have anything on the sim to care. OK. I'll just keep trying. Sep 27 03:24:46 sagacis: it looks like, looking at that log, gsmd got confused in the middle Sep 27 03:24:59 ERROR is not a common answer for AT+CFUN=1... Sep 27 03:25:16 not after extender error messages are enabled, at least Sep 27 03:26:05 When I did it through cu, cfun=1 returned OK, COPS=0 never returned Sep 27 03:26:24 thought I'd try qtopia symlinked in Sep 27 03:26:41 qtopia worked dandy now. Sep 27 03:27:55 almost dandy. Never connected the call. :( Sep 27 03:28:08 sagacis: are you sure it's not just lacking sound? Sep 27 03:28:09 "network registration denied" Sep 27 03:28:19 Oh, yeah. I forgot Sep 27 03:30:04 OK. Much better. Sep 27 03:31:16 So, fyi, qtopia runs fine in an openmoko image Sep 27 03:31:32 with a few bugs Sep 27 03:32:05 perhaps... Sep 27 03:32:14 ljp, does dtmf work in qtopia? Sep 27 03:32:43 Ok, I need to make a minor change in the flow-control kernel patch to handle the case where there's no defined console. :) Sep 27 03:32:50 Building now... Sep 27 03:34:29 sagacis: yes, it should. except yesterday I found a bug where it started a second call, but sent them anyway Sep 27 03:36:51 ljp, I called my other phone and disconnected before answering. Qtopia told me I had missed a call (it's in the missed calls list) Sep 27 03:38:21 ljp: also, for some reason, I just got a text message from _@@sms with a body of an html reference to nothing. Sep 27 03:39:08 ya, data sms doesnt work on neo yet, as we havent implemented multiplexing yet Sep 27 03:39:57 I'm really tired of this qtopia thread Sep 27 03:40:36 notserpe: heh sorry. Waiting for an update from mwester, but OM's not registering my gsm today. Sep 27 03:41:04 oh, I don't mean here, I mean on the community list. Sep 27 03:41:07 I just got in tonight Sep 27 03:41:17 delete button helps Sep 27 03:41:21 Oh. I haven't looked at the community list recently. Sep 27 03:41:22 sagacis: Don't wait for me. Looks like OE is going to rebuild half the world for me. Sep 27 03:42:05 mwester: I don't know why the gsm won't start on my phone. Sep 27 03:42:38 well, can you reboot, and pastebin the output from "dmesg" -- that'll tell us if the kernel module is causing any problems with the console re-enabled. Sep 27 03:42:48 Sure. Sep 27 03:43:42 I wonder if my lid will start falling off my phone before log. I pop the top and pull the battery a lot. Sep 27 03:44:11 ah... ljp is here. Love your line "Of course they don't, because they are developing using the LGPL, which encourages commercial closed source."... heh... unlike dual licensing. Sep 27 03:45:15 we were talking about free software Sep 27 03:45:20 i have come to realize that there are a lot of idiots on community. Sep 27 03:45:49 and, IMHO, LGPL is not about encouraging free software Sep 27 03:45:51 * mwester feels right at home. Sep 27 03:45:58 * ljp shuts up now Sep 27 03:46:24 http://cl1p.net/sagacis.dmesg/ Sep 27 03:46:53 who'se running qtopia on their neo? Sep 27 03:47:05 Ok, what ails your phone is not the flow control patch at this point. Sep 27 03:47:10 I'm running both. Sep 27 03:47:29 Never-the-less, I'll update the patch to support both console and no-console situations. Sep 27 03:47:56 mwester: flow-control not allowed? Sep 27 03:48:04 ferric: me! Sep 27 03:48:05 ljp: I agree - LGPL is the FSF's concession to the closed-source world. Sep 27 03:48:17 ljp: heh - of course you are. :P Sep 27 03:48:41 I'm running QT on one, and OM on the other. Sep 27 03:49:08 panel didn't make it up on this boot Sep 27 03:49:44 Yeah, I saw that in the dmesg - it got an alignment trap. The battery applet is the problem (thanks to Elrond for figuring that out) Sep 27 03:50:14 If you edit the /etc/matchbox/session file to remove the battery applet from the panel options, it'll work every time. Sep 27 03:50:36 mwester: OK. My CFUN=1 failed again Sep 27 03:50:45 does qtopia let you make calls? Sep 27 03:50:51 yes Sep 27 03:50:52 ferric: Yes. Sep 27 03:50:54 actually, does OM let you make calls? Sep 27 03:50:59 Yep. Sep 27 03:50:59 ferric: not mine. Sep 27 03:51:11 I've made a few calls - works ok. Sep 27 03:51:25 ferric: OM worked for me last week OK. Now no joy again. Sep 27 03:51:25 Still lots of work to do, but it's getting much closer in the past week or two. Sep 27 03:51:36 gotcha. Sep 27 03:51:41 both make and receive calls. Sep 27 03:51:42 * sagacis thinks he's getting further.... Sep 27 03:51:52 nice. Sep 27 03:51:57 :( Sep 27 03:52:08 sagacis: your qtopia won't let you make calls? Sep 27 03:52:24 ferric: qtopia works, OM doesn't. Sep 27 03:52:25 So which uboot version allows one to skip the "nand erase rootfs" bit? Sep 27 03:52:36 * mwester has been lazy and hasn't updated his uboot. Sep 27 03:52:37 mwester: latest, at least Sep 27 03:52:43 * sagacis neither Sep 27 03:53:20 yeah, I suppose I could just reflash -- I have the debug board. But I'm busy enough with other stuff, now is not a good time to learn to recover the neo. Sep 27 03:53:36 rwhitby is pretty good at it, though :) Sep 27 03:54:06 heh Sep 27 03:54:14 heh heh... Sep 27 03:54:15 sagacis: so why not keep using qtopia? Sep 27 03:54:31 ferric: It doesn't have the apps I've written. Sep 27 03:54:36 ah Sep 27 03:54:38 It doesn't have gprs tools Sep 27 03:54:40 *nods* Sep 27 03:54:41 it doesn't have web Sep 27 03:54:46 yuck, qt Sep 27 03:54:52 * mwester wants a full "select-at-startup-time" dual-boot sort of thing to choose OM or Qtopia. Sep 27 03:54:54 any word on gta02 release dates yet? Sep 27 03:54:57 pretty icons, tho Sep 27 03:55:02 doc|home: 2009 I heard. Sep 27 03:55:09 mwester: that would be nice. Sep 27 03:55:09 like xdm Sep 27 03:55:09 o.O Sep 27 03:55:12 you're joking? Sep 27 03:55:15 yes Sep 27 03:55:15 I ran the panel-applet in my ssh -X and now have the panel on my host Sep 27 03:55:29 but that's as good as anyone else's estimate. Sep 27 03:55:30 sweet Sep 27 03:55:34 That should be up in the topic at this point, it's certainly a FAQ... Sep 27 03:55:34 rwhitby: ever woken up with a horse's head in your bed? :( Sep 27 03:55:37 ;) Sep 27 03:55:48 see my email to the community list. Sep 27 03:55:54 * doc|home looks Sep 27 03:56:05 I should sign up for that, I'm only on the announce list Sep 27 03:56:13 the simple fact is that they don't have final hardware yet, so there is no way there can be a general release for at least three months IMHO Sep 27 03:56:15 sagacis: Cool, but I'm not sure how practical it is for a phone... ;) Sep 27 03:56:27 there. Sep 27 03:56:28 rwhitby: that sucks :( Sep 27 03:56:35 ferric: heh Sep 27 03:56:35 Well that wasn't what I had in mind. Sep 27 03:56:39 doc|home: that's hardware development Sep 27 03:56:42 mwester: I can carry my host around with a long extension cord. At least I'll be able to keep the battery full. Sep 27 03:56:47 hehe! Sep 27 03:56:51 mwester: topic unlocked, feel free to change. Sep 27 03:56:56 rwhitby: yeah, :/ so it'll be 4/5 minimum :/ Sep 27 03:56:57 the software will take even longer at the rate the gsmd problem is being fixed ... Sep 27 03:57:29 someone needs to rewrite gsmd from the ground up Sep 27 03:57:39 someone that knows what they're doing, that is. Sep 27 03:57:45 and have access to the firmware. Sep 27 03:57:46 ouch Sep 27 03:57:52 I believe Trolltech are doing just that ;-) Sep 27 03:57:58 heh Sep 27 03:58:17 rwhitby: by calling it the lgpl'd libgsmd? :) Sep 27 03:58:46 ferric: you've got it all wrong. trolltech releases dual licensed gpl/commercial phone stack for neo Sep 27 03:59:02 ! Sep 27 03:59:12 they don't release lgpl stuff as far as I know (and I may be wrong, but ljp will correct me if I am) Sep 27 03:59:27 ferric: why ! ? Sep 27 03:59:59 Trolltech is a business. As such, they need to make money. Their business model seems to be GPL for open source developers, and commercial for commercial developers. Sep 27 04:00:17 It's a common business model for companies that work in the open source space. Sep 27 04:00:33 rwhitby: i didn't know that - sorry, i've been buried under Real WorkTM Sep 27 04:00:34 no lgpl from Trolltech Sep 27 04:00:59 rwhitby common for some, but troublesome Sep 27 04:01:03 for some vague reason i thought qt used to be lgpl. Sep 27 04:01:03 ljp, whats the little number keyboard when qtopia boots? Sep 27 04:01:03 ljp: please feel free to correct if I'm misrepresenting anything here. Sep 27 04:01:25 sagacis: pin code thingy I think Sep 27 04:01:35 roh: that may be so, but the company doing the work gets to choose their business model, and people should respect that, or use something else. Sep 27 04:01:36 ah. Don't use that. Sep 27 04:01:37 rwhitby: spot on Sep 27 04:02:03 rwhitby: It's way better than the traditional Proprietary model, methinks. Sep 27 04:02:37 it's clear that OpenMoko and Trolltech represent two different companies with two different business models. Both are valid, both have good points and bad points depending on an individual's circumstances and ideology. Sep 27 04:02:45 rwhitby i respect that fully. but it should be said that this limits the possibilitys of community-involment massively Sep 27 04:02:59 not really Sep 27 04:03:34 roh: again it depends on the ideology of the people contributing, whether they are comfortable signing copyright over for dual licensing or not. Sep 27 04:03:58 one shouldn't assume that all open source developers have the same ideologies. Sep 27 04:04:06 ljp well.. i still have no answer to how you can accept patches under gpl from the community without the patch-writing party submitting its copyright to trolltech Sep 27 04:04:24 roh: depends on the patch Sep 27 04:04:34 roh: patche to GNU Emacs are exactly the same - you need to sign copyright over to the FSF, Sep 27 04:04:41 qt is whoa. I didn't mean to start a holy war. Sep 27 04:04:42 (I know, I've had to do it) Sep 27 04:04:46 qt is cool, look at kde. Sep 27 04:04:52 :) Sep 27 04:05:03 bah! qt is a bunch of trolls Sep 27 04:05:12 heh Sep 27 04:05:17 ljp japp. e.g. it rules out linking directly to gpl code in the commerical variant. it only allows simple patches or signed papers Sep 27 04:05:21 the thing is that you can't have arguments over people's ideologies. you can never come to a single answer. Sep 27 04:05:30 no pun or harm intended Sep 27 04:06:52 open source developers need to realise that there are many different type of open source, not all of which are acceptable to the FSF, and many of which have different business models behind them. Sep 27 04:07:16 rwhitby: so -- if TT came out with a gpl'd gsmd, then why doesn't OM use it? Sep 27 04:07:27 TT doesnt use gsmd Sep 27 04:07:28 rwhitby jap. too sad so much licensing stuff and legal details are involved Sep 27 04:07:32 rwhitby: and do you have a link to this gpl'd gsmd, or is it the one that is part of qtopia? Sep 27 04:07:40 ljp: yes, i remember you said that last week Sep 27 04:07:49 ljp: how does qtopia do gsm functions, then? Sep 27 04:07:56 * ljp doesnt rememebr that Sep 27 04:08:03 not by gsmd Sep 27 04:08:13 ferric: because the business model of OpenMoko requires basic infrastructure to be LPGL'd so that commercial people can use it without needing to release their source code. Sep 27 04:08:13 heh Sep 27 04:08:23 we have own out libraries for gsm/communications Sep 27 04:08:24 oh! Sep 27 04:08:33 ljp: that are gpl'd? Sep 27 04:08:40 ferric: yes Sep 27 04:09:34 wait. Sep 27 04:09:41 qtopia has been in development for ~ 7 years Sep 27 04:09:44 The commercial license allows the final application to be licensed under various free software/open source licenses such as the LGPL or the Artistic License, or a proprietary software license <- from the QT Wikipedia page Sep 27 04:09:57 ljp: yep, i know. i was around when the familiar folks were hacking ipaq's. :) Sep 27 04:10:14 ahh ok Sep 27 04:10:33 rwhitby: so theoretically, someone could get a qt commercial license and release their code under lgp Sep 27 04:10:36 * ljp 's memory is bad since kids happened and sleep deprivation became constant Sep 27 04:10:36 lgpl Sep 27 04:10:43 ljp: LOL Sep 27 04:10:57 ferric: no, you can't relicense something Sep 27 04:11:01 ferric: no. you cant relicense if you dont own the copyright Sep 27 04:11:43 oh, you can relicense the _final_ application Sep 27 04:11:43 got it Sep 27 04:11:47 fucking lawyers. Sep 27 04:11:50 trolltech owns the copyright, so they can license as both GPL and commercial. Sep 27 04:12:11 someone who gets the code or binary from trolltech, cannot relicense. Sep 27 04:12:19 you can license your own code however you want Sep 27 04:12:58 ljp: but if it links against GPL'd then they need to license as GPL. Sep 27 04:13:21 I presume if they buy the commercial license, then they can license their app that links with it as they please. Sep 27 04:14:05 rwhitby: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GPL_linking_exception Sep 27 04:14:39 ferric: right - the original copyright holder needs to put that exception in their license. Sep 27 04:15:01 unless you're the copyright holder, you can't make that exception. Sep 27 04:16:10 ferric: note that the GPL is only possible due to copyright law, so lawyers are needed to uphold the GPL as much as they are needed to uphold any other license. That's life with licensing. Sep 27 04:16:43 * rwhitby is not a lawyer. Sep 27 04:19:16 lawyers are the scum of the earth, though, no? Sep 27 04:20:17 meh - they're just doing the job that the people who employ them want them to do, and that the people who voted in the government and judges allow them to do ... Sep 27 04:20:32 Hey all the packages at http://qtopia.net/packages/feed/4.2.2/arm/packages.list are malware packages! Sep 27 04:20:43 i want to be a lawyer. then my code will be backed by the power of a gun, even if its buggy! Sep 27 04:20:46 executioners probably got a bad rap in ancient times too ... Sep 27 04:20:48 sagacis: thats a testing feed for sxe Sep 27 04:21:23 ljp, where are the application hooks defined? Can I add vte or mrxvt or something to get a terminal? Sep 27 04:21:37 qtopia doesnt use X11 Sep 27 04:22:19 If it wasn't so late, I would have know that before asking ;-) Sep 27 04:22:32 yet Sep 27 04:22:54 I'd better give up the day to the night. g'night all. Sep 27 04:23:27 cheers, sagacis Sep 27 04:23:52 rwhitby: are you still maintaining mokomakefile? Sep 27 04:24:06 yes Sep 27 04:24:09 cool. Sep 27 04:24:14 * ferric does a make update Sep 27 04:24:48 I make no claims about the stability of the OE metadata that mokomakefile builds, however. Sep 27 04:26:26 i know that the current release of the neo is developer preview, but will much change between now and final? Sep 27 04:26:45 hardware will change from GTA01 to GTA02 Sep 27 04:27:07 rwhitby: are you trying to inspire confidence in me? :P Sep 27 04:27:15 atoponce: yes Sep 27 04:27:44 ok. you probably get this a lot, but when are the expected plans on final? Sep 27 04:27:53 atoponce: read the topic :P Sep 27 04:27:59 heh Sep 27 04:28:27 please buy a gta01 and help us make it better for all of us :) Sep 27 04:28:34 if you can't hack, write docs. Sep 27 04:28:49 oh, i can hack. what's the underlying api? Sep 27 04:29:00 openembedded Sep 27 04:30:40 ooh. lots of goodies on the wiki Sep 27 04:30:46 * atoponce is occupied Sep 27 04:30:49 yes, its brilliant. Sep 27 04:30:54 go forth and hack! Sep 27 04:49:42 usb 1.1?! Sep 27 04:49:56 what is the reasoning behind not implementing 2.0? Sep 27 04:50:29 it's a dev unit dude Sep 27 04:51:04 true, but it's going into gta02 also Sep 27 04:58:38 atoponce: The USB port comes from the Samsung SoC, so if it has no high-speed USB 2.0 then there's little the designers can do without adding an additional interface chip (which there is no space for) Sep 27 04:58:51 ahh Sep 27 06:14:31 I love this display... Sep 27 06:20:58 abraxa_: I'm also :) Sep 27 06:28:08 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Wish_List]] Sep 27 07:30:17 hello, just wanna know how's the battery life on the neo1973 Sep 27 07:31:15 not great, since most of the power management so far consists of turning off the backlight Sep 27 07:36:16 good morning Sep 27 07:40:21 thanks for the info mjr :) Sep 27 07:41:24 became an openmoko convert almost overnight after realising the "freedom" of control one can have with openmoko Sep 27 07:41:53 due to some bad experience with proprietary phones Sep 27 07:43:21 :) Sep 27 07:43:45 * ruskie still needs to find funds to buy one of the phones when they get out... Sep 27 07:44:18 hi Sep 27 07:44:42 with qtopia my neo lives around 4 or 5 hours Sep 27 07:45:00 but this is without making calls etc... Sep 27 07:45:10 most of the time with screen off Sep 27 07:46:49 wow, still has some room for improvement in that area Sep 27 07:46:56 what's taking up all the power? Sep 27 07:47:09 probably all the bits that are turned on... Sep 27 07:47:24 is it because it is running on a full fledged 2.6 linux kernel? Sep 27 07:51:03 I said what it's because of Sep 27 07:51:27 it'll get better when the CPU isn't running full tilt all the time Sep 27 07:51:42 (for instance) Sep 27 07:54:00 pm hasnt bbeen implemented for qtopia yet Sep 27 08:00:23 well, the screen is switching off Sep 27 08:00:35 also the phone suspeds Sep 27 08:00:46 bit it wont wake up after that'! :-D Sep 27 08:01:07 yep Sep 27 08:01:09 :) Sep 27 08:01:30 you can try waking it up by hittinnng one of the buttons Sep 27 08:02:01 sorry, i'm still a noob here...i tot qtopia is linked to greenphone....and openmoko is different altogether right? Sep 27 08:03:37 qtopia runs on several phones, notjust greenpphone Sep 27 08:04:05 but yes, openmoko gui has a different interface Sep 27 08:04:59 icic....so qtopia is, say, something like openbox or fluxbox in the traditional linux sense? Sep 27 08:05:24 moooore like kde, ya Sep 27 08:05:40 yeah, what ljp said Sep 27 08:06:09 qtopia is qt toolkit as in kde, as opposed to openmokos gtk toolkit as in gnome Sep 27 08:06:37 ahhhh...that clears it :D thanks ljp, jeddy3 Sep 27 08:07:15 not equal to kde/gnome, just same widget toolkit as they use Sep 27 08:08:13 ok, are there other alternatives besides qtopia? i've seen matchbox, but graphic-wise, qtopia looks slicker Sep 27 08:08:27 significantly also OpenMoko uses X, while qtopia does its own thing Sep 27 08:08:40 OpenMoko uses matchbox also Sep 27 08:09:05 qtopia writes to the framebuffer and has its own windowing system Sep 27 08:09:22 x on neo also writes to the framebuffer Sep 27 08:11:47 hey all...I tried to get usbnet working with the Palm TX, but since 3 days I'm not able to get a connection. demsg says: usb0: link ist not ready Sep 27 08:12:11 thanks mjr, ljp! Sep 27 08:12:14 I tried to load moduls and restart the network...but nothing changes Sep 27 08:13:48 (script) planet: Jon Phillips: My OpenMoko Dialed! http://rejon.org/2007/09/16/my-openmoko-dialed/ Jon Phillips: OpenMoko Wiki Face + Late OM Indoctrination http://rejon.org/2007/09/10/openmoko-wiki-face-late-om-indoctrination/ Sep 27 08:16:26 vicovin_, also you can check Openedhand's Poky distro and GPE phone edition Sep 27 08:18:13 cool! thanks any_key! really want to know more stuff about openmoko Sep 27 08:20:14 vicovin_, use the wiki, Luke : ) Sep 27 08:20:58 "I spent a little bit of time today trying to get my OpenMoko working" - I wish people would stop confusing OpenMoko and the Neo Sep 27 08:21:02 got it! Sep 27 08:24:54 openmoko is the project, neo is the product? Sep 27 08:25:40 openmoko is the project and the distro Sep 27 08:26:02 though the distro hopefully isn't the only reason the people are working on the project :) Sep 27 08:26:17 and neo is the phone itself, the hardware Sep 27 08:27:55 thanks for the clarification :) Sep 27 08:31:21 XorA! There you are :) Sep 27 08:32:06 You did the tests with mplayer, video playback and the display's 320x240 mode? Sep 27 08:35:33 abraxa_: no Sep 27 08:40:31 XorA: Oh dang. Sep 27 08:41:02 XorA: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Video_Player is misquoting you then? Sep 27 08:41:06 abraxa_: I suspect with mp3 sound it should manage 15-20fps Sep 27 08:41:19 abraxa_: as armv4 doesnt have the super optimisations of armv5/6 Sep 27 08:41:59 XorA: Hmm, so I assume right then that you don't happen to know how to bring the Neo into 320x240 mode then? Sep 27 08:42:14 abraxa_: you need to apply patches from stefan_schmidt Sep 27 08:42:44 XorA: Do you remember a link by chance? Sep 27 08:43:18 abraxa_: no, but this channel is logged Sep 27 08:43:21 ~logs Sep 27 08:43:22 extra, extra, read all about it, logs is apt/ibot/infobot/jbot/purl all log daily to http://ibot.rikers.org// where channelname is html encoded ie: %23debian | lines that start with a space are not shown | some channels have stats at http://ibot.rikers.org/stats/.html.gz Sep 27 08:44:37 ugh... Sep 27 10:08:58 stupid wiki didn't tell me what server the chat channel was on Sep 27 10:09:03 need to add that to the wiki Sep 27 10:09:34 do i need the actual hardware to start development or is there an emulator? Sep 27 10:09:34 Unclemantis: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (and also SH1, SH1_FAQ, Neo1973, Developer_preview and Neo1973_Hardware#GTA01Bv4 pages) (Hopefully these links answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.) Sep 27 10:09:51 any response to this dude: http://www.roughlydrafted.com/RD/RDM.Tech.Q3.07/B10AE668-EAD3-46DC-A042-5EF3461D63EF.html Sep 27 10:10:25 Unclemantis: you can do devlopment on x86 Sep 27 10:10:49 is their an SDK for it and is linux required Sep 27 10:11:00 is there a container sandbox for windows? Sep 27 10:11:00 sort-of, and yes Sep 27 10:11:06 well - no Sep 27 10:11:14 you can I think run qemu under windows Sep 27 10:11:26 which flavor of linux is required or does it matter? Sep 27 10:11:46 you will need some sort of modern linux with assorted recent libraries to do dev on. Sep 27 10:11:52 or install lots of stuff. Sep 27 10:12:03 exact form doesn't matter. Sep 27 10:12:07 you say there is sort of an SDK Sep 27 10:12:20 sort-of, in that there is source Sep 27 10:12:24 and minimal docs. Sep 27 10:12:41 is there like an emulation application? I don't have the dough for a phone right now Sep 27 10:12:48 qemu works. Sep 27 10:12:55 Also, you can build OM for x86 Sep 27 10:13:24 ic Sep 27 10:13:30 so get qemu Sep 27 10:13:31 if you don't care about building apps that run on the phone. Sep 27 10:13:43 Just on your PC, that can easily then be compiled. Sep 27 10:13:44 ok i am confused Sep 27 10:13:50 several options: Sep 27 10:13:55 i want to build apps for the phone Sep 27 10:13:57 A) real hardware Sep 27 10:14:01 i do not have funds to buy a phone Sep 27 10:14:07 B) Qemu - emulating the real hardware Sep 27 10:14:18 ok Sep 27 10:14:22 C) Openmoko - running on your own processor natively. Sep 27 10:14:26 where do i get the emulation software Sep 27 10:14:29 A and B can run the same programs Sep 27 10:14:39 C can't - but the source code is identical Sep 27 10:15:11 However with C, it's much faster to compile and run stuff. Sep 27 10:15:43 And you can simply then build for a different target architecture to go to run on the phone Sep 27 10:16:23 i am getting qemu 0.9.0 for windows Sep 27 10:16:34 test in C first, then B Sep 27 10:16:35 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Qemu Sep 27 10:17:29 ok Sep 27 10:17:36 sounds like i am on the right track Sep 27 10:17:48 it seems this is where the future is going Sep 27 10:18:05 can i expect someone to hire me in the near future with phone programming skills? Sep 27 10:18:23 Sure. Sep 27 10:18:33 You can expect to be abducted by aliens too. Sep 27 10:18:41 that is great news! Sep 27 10:18:45 i love anal Sep 27 10:19:50 IMO - mass adoption of OM is _at_least_ a year off. Sep 27 10:19:52 oh cool Sep 27 10:19:55 i have linux lol Sep 27 10:19:56 If all goes exactly right. Sep 27 10:20:07 i have shell Sep 27 10:20:24 sh-2.05b# Sep 27 10:20:30 is this good enough for what i need? Sep 27 10:20:37 Well - ... Sep 27 10:20:54 If you're asking that sort of question, you've got more learning to do. Sep 27 10:21:00 where do you have this shell? Sep 27 10:21:08 it is early, leave me alone Sep 27 10:21:14 and what does 'uname -a' say? Sep 27 10:21:16 in the window that popped up Sep 27 10:21:31 command not found Sep 27 10:21:59 * kristian-m applauds to the glamo-patch :-) Sep 27 10:22:05 Ok - that's not very linuxy. Sep 27 10:22:17 so what the hell do i have Sep 27 10:22:32 How did you get this linux? Sep 27 10:22:36 and where did you install it? Sep 27 10:22:39 i have qemu for windows and i ran the stupid thing and i get a shell i type in what you asked and got a command not found Sep 27 10:23:45 Ok - you need to have a non-emulated linux system up and running. Sep 27 10:24:06 Running a build under qemu will take 10-100* longer than the 10-20 hours it normally does. Sep 27 10:24:09 you said qemu will work Sep 27 10:24:18 qemu works as a phone emulator Sep 27 10:24:28 ok Sep 27 10:24:39 it does not work to run the software to compile the phone software, as it's _so_ much slower Sep 27 10:24:42 so i use qemu as the phone emulator but i need to use pure linux for development? Sep 27 10:25:01 PRetty much. Sep 27 10:25:05 ok Sep 27 10:25:19 I _think_ someones built it on OS/X Sep 27 10:25:25 but I don't think so under windows Sep 27 10:25:33 hmm Sep 27 10:25:41 i see screenshots of the phone in action Sep 27 10:25:44 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Qemu - reading that, and many of the wiki links you don't understand may be of use. Sep 27 10:25:52 where can i get that to run on qemu to test and play with for now Sep 27 10:25:53 The screenshots are often outdated Sep 27 10:26:40 There is a link to 'pre-buiilt binaries' on the above page Sep 27 10:27:44 cool Sep 27 10:27:47 gf making fun of me Sep 27 10:28:08 Unclemantis: you could run linux in vmware but even that'd give you a little less performance than running it natively. Sep 27 10:28:18 * SpeedEvil forgot vmware Sep 27 10:28:45 Jiten: depends what you mean by "little" Sep 27 10:28:50 Unclemantis: you obviously haven't been taking advantage of your spam ;-) Sep 27 10:29:09 wtf Sep 27 10:29:10 viq: I have no idea since I haven't run any benchmarks :) Sep 27 10:29:22 on my 1GHz P3 in VMWare systems are performing as if they were maybe 300MHz Sep 27 10:29:55 viq: that could be because you haven't installed the drivers for the emulated graphics card and such Sep 27 10:30:08 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Nand_erase]] [[Neo1973_Battery]] Sep 27 10:30:47 Jiten: the guest wasn't even running X Sep 27 10:31:29 ok, then you're puzzling me, the last time I tried, I couldn't really tell if it ran slower. Sep 27 10:32:29 Jiten: what CPU were you running it on? Maybe you got the advantage of the newer CPUs' virtualization support. But when I was compiling something it was taking I think 50% more time than on my 600MHz Duron. Sep 27 10:33:07 Athlon XP 1800+ was the last processor I tried vmware with. I don't think it has support for the virtualization stuff. Sep 27 10:33:20 No, I don't think it does. Sep 27 10:33:26 What were you doing with it? Sep 27 10:34:09 windows version of vmware, running linux. Sep 27 10:34:36 anyway, that's at least 2 years ago. Sep 27 10:36:11 can't remember exactly what I used it for. Nothing I'd get any performance numbers out of at least. Sep 27 10:36:18 Well, depends what you were doing with it. "ooh, I have a GUI *click*" indeed shouldn't be much slower, but were you to start compiling something, I think you would notice a difference. Sep 27 10:37:57 I once did quite a lot of hacking in linux running in vmware on OSX, and with the dual-core support it wasn't noticably slower most of the time... Sep 27 10:40:17 "once"? It must have been within last 6 months or even less Sep 27 10:40:55 yeah.. I guess it was somewhere around may/june.. :P Sep 27 10:41:33 Yeah, that's when we started hearing about vmware for mac Sep 27 10:41:53 and those boxes have harware virtualization "acceleration" - mine doesn't :P Sep 27 10:47:23 I think, I read somewhere that vmware performs better than kvm, but ... Sep 27 10:47:40 no numbers were said and I haven't tested either myself Sep 27 10:49:55 kvm ustilizes hardware virtualization support, which I don't have available, so didn't even consider testing. Sep 27 10:51:03 i see Bridge Firewalling registered and it just sits there Sep 27 10:51:28 so when does the phone interface pop up Sep 27 10:51:57 the whole VM thing, only IO slows a VM, code running in user space is run at same speed. The problem with compiling is you load and save a lot of stuff quickly, forcing VM to keep switching states killing performance Sep 27 10:52:56 i give up.... for now, i gotta go LOL Sep 27 10:53:45 morning: anyone know how to flash a new kernel without using dfu-util? can it be done from inside a running neo? Sep 27 10:54:18 (i ask because my neo is at home and I want to ssh in to it and update the kernel to try a patch) Sep 27 10:54:47 jpcass_: technically you can just write kernel to mtd device Sep 27 10:54:55 jpcass_: but Ive never heard anyone trying Sep 27 10:55:13 XorA: i tried with dd but it didnt work... Sep 27 10:55:25 how diddn't work? Sep 27 10:55:41 looked like it was working but no change to kernel Sep 27 10:56:05 on my router there';s a program called mtd for updating the flash... Sep 27 10:59:20 reminds me, should upgrade WRT54 Sep 27 11:06:06 charliedog121 Sep 27 11:06:13 errikcs6994 Sep 27 11:06:30 gah! Sep 27 11:06:38 wrong chan sorry Sep 27 11:11:21 no worries, we'll hack into your system in no time anyways Sep 27 11:17:14 :-D Sep 27 11:17:44 * ScaredyCat uses keys Sep 27 11:22:08 * CM finds midp on a W660 a bit difficult and slow Sep 27 11:24:26 Heh, meant MidpSSH of course. :) Sep 27 11:43:10 CM: heh, MidpSSH on my Motorola E398 is glacial Sep 27 11:43:16 takes ~5 minute to log in Sep 27 12:04:31 pqwd Sep 27 12:04:32 pwd Sep 27 12:06:14 pwnd Sep 27 12:07:43 sandos, the e398 ftw! :) Sep 27 12:07:48 that was my best phone Sep 27 12:08:06 and it was so hacked Sep 27 12:08:14 like now there is even a binary loader for it Sep 27 12:09:26 I have the OpenMoko Emulator running... it booted now i have a penguin on the upper left, a screen full of boot text and then on the bottom Bridge firewalling registered and then that is it, nothing else is happening :( Sep 27 12:10:26 on the command window i see Sep 27 12:10:26 jbt6k74_command: Display on. Sep 27 12:10:27 s3c_adc_write: Bad register 0x8 Sep 27 12:10:45 wait a minute, something is happening Sep 27 12:10:51 freeing init memory Sep 27 12:11:07 how long does this normaly take and is the actual phone going to take this freaking long to boot? LOL Sep 27 12:12:14 it is using 15 percent of the CPU and 31,000k of memory Sep 27 12:12:24 it is still saying freeing init memory Sep 27 12:13:32 is this just the core, no apps, nothing? Sep 27 12:13:52 its still going, doing something now Sep 27 12:13:59 i hope this is a one time thing LOL Sep 27 12:14:27 it is up to Synthiszing the initial hotplug events Sep 27 12:15:05 Unclemantis: what are you running it on? Sep 27 12:15:27 xp Sep 27 12:16:14 how fast cpu and such? Sep 27 12:16:51 1.5 ghz Sep 27 12:16:58 1.5 megs ram Sep 27 12:17:03 gigs!!!! Sep 27 12:17:27 1.5M would have been amusing Sep 27 12:17:35 swap storm or what Sep 27 12:17:48 i have no page fiole Sep 27 12:17:56 it is all in physical Sep 27 12:18:03 jesus this is running slow LOL Sep 27 12:18:24 are you actually laughing out loud every time you type LOL ? Sep 27 12:18:36 cjb_ie: I was wondering the same thing :-) Sep 27 12:18:49 ok just calibrated the touch screen with the mouse pointer Sep 27 12:19:10 WARNING NEO CAUSES HYSTERIA AND INSANITY Sep 27 12:20:01 XorA: AND IMPATIENCE! LOL Sep 27 12:20:12 how long does it take for the neo to do the booting? Sep 27 12:20:25 3-4 mins? Sep 27 12:20:38 from start to the graphical screen? Sep 27 12:20:44 This is not the final state or anywhere close to it Sep 27 12:20:45 i didn't time it but it felt like for ages Sep 27 12:21:01 qemu is not representative of the real device times Sep 27 12:21:20 and the booting will be both sped up, and almost never done. Sep 27 12:21:26 As it'll be resuming from RAM Sep 27 12:21:27 takes about 5 min from `make qemu` til its finished Sep 27 12:21:34 ok Sep 27 12:21:41 well i have the interface now Sep 27 12:21:44 can i make a call? LOL Sep 27 12:21:58 I think so if you've got a GSM modem attached Sep 27 12:22:00 on my work-ws Sep 27 12:22:04 no kidding Sep 27 12:22:44 my sonyericsson takes about a minute to boot, it's ridiculously slow Sep 27 12:23:38 In principle - booting should only be needed on battery change. Sep 27 12:23:49 my nokia 3310 takes about 5 sec to boot ;) Sep 27 12:23:53 Or if you leave it for over a month or so. Sep 27 12:24:03 oh Sep 27 12:24:11 Mine takes a lot longer before it will make calls though Sep 27 12:24:15 so when i close this and then start it up again it will take just as long? Sep 27 12:24:28 so this is the iPhone killer? Sep 27 12:24:30 Yes Sep 27 12:24:37 network-connect takes som secs too Sep 27 12:24:38 In principle - booting should only be needed on battery change. Sep 27 12:24:52 resume from RAM will take under a second Sep 27 12:24:53 Unclemantis, well i'm buying one instead of a iPhone Sep 27 12:24:58 hmm ok Sep 27 12:25:02 but Sep 27 12:25:08 i like getting my hands dirty :) Sep 27 12:25:11 but the iphone looks prettier and more fun Sep 27 12:25:13 and it can sit in suspend-RAM for a few weeks. Sep 27 12:25:51 Unclemantis: and the next version may be completely locked down. Sep 27 12:26:33 ok so i might as well go for this moko then Sep 27 12:27:09 i have had this open for 11 minutes now Sep 27 12:27:11 not liking it yet Sep 27 12:28:12 the web browser doesn't work Sep 27 12:28:16 google is not showing up Sep 27 12:28:30 man this is not something i can just run right out of the box is it Sep 27 12:28:43 and i really need to have this running on a linux box Sep 27 12:29:11 No, unfortunately, even the basics are not working very well at the moment. Sep 27 12:29:27 and this is going to be for sale next month? Sep 27 12:29:28 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Gsmd/document]] Sep 27 12:29:32 no Sep 27 12:29:48 Personally, I suspect that the dialer and accepting calls, ringtones, ... should be working by the time hardware is available for shipment possibly in december Sep 27 12:29:50 i thought i read that in a magazine and on the site Sep 27 12:29:54 the rest will be spotty Sep 27 12:30:02 Unclemantis: you did. it's impossible. Sep 27 12:30:05 It's recently been announced that there will be a slip Sep 27 12:30:22 It's not quite impossible - just vanishingly unlikely. Sep 27 12:30:36 "Please note that the OpenMoko products are not meant for the end user and explicitly marked as Developer preview at this time. Read this wiki article to find more technical details of what you can and cannot expect of these devices." Sep 27 12:30:37 nah, I say impossible. prove me wrong ;-) Sep 27 12:30:38 (if they decide to go insane and go volume with perhaps buggy hardware with no testing at all) Sep 27 12:30:46 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Developer_preview Sep 27 12:31:11 SpeedEvil: even if they made that decision today, I bet the first person couldn't get one in October. Sep 27 12:31:12 Unclemantis: see the two lines i pasted above. Sep 27 12:31:45 ok Sep 27 12:31:47 (and there's no way they would make a really bad decision like that) Sep 27 12:32:10 so should i start learning to develop for this? is this really going to take off like a shot? Sep 27 12:32:12 rwhitby: I dunno - we've never really been told how long the production process takes. Sep 27 12:32:19 Unclemantis: Who knows? Sep 27 12:32:37 Unclemantis: It will not be suitable for end-users for some months yet. Sep 27 12:32:44 Then, it could take off. Sep 27 12:32:50 If it will depends on the market. Sep 27 12:32:56 so i guess this is a gamble like everything else Sep 27 12:33:03 SpeedEvil: but we know from GTA01 experience what to expect. anything better than that should just be treated as an unexpected surprise. Sep 27 12:33:10 and people will be buying applications or will they all be free? Sep 27 12:33:15 either Sep 27 12:33:18 I susepct the most likely outcome is several tens of thousands/year for at least 2 years Sep 27 12:33:18 both Sep 27 12:33:34 Then maybe expanding Sep 27 12:33:46 Applications can either be free - the basic core applications. Sep 27 12:33:49 so i guess it is worth a shot Sep 27 12:33:52 Or pay-for - for example TomTom Sep 27 12:33:57 Unclemantis: on linux, do people buy applications or are they all free? Sep 27 12:34:07 on linux they are both Sep 27 12:34:13 Or possibly pay-for rather Sep 27 12:34:16 same thing Sep 27 12:34:37 For example, at the moment tomtom is the only plausible way to get maps other than the UK and US legally Sep 27 12:34:45 For example, at the moment tomtom is the only plausible way to get maps other than the Netherlands and US legally Sep 27 12:34:55 * SpeedEvil wonders why he typed UK. Sep 27 12:34:59 SpeedEvil: i was wondering for a moment :) Sep 27 12:35:11 osm? Sep 27 12:35:12 though the UK is doing well in openstreetmap. Sep 27 12:35:13 yes Sep 27 12:35:23 ok Sep 27 12:35:25 cjb_ie: some small parts of the UK Sep 27 12:35:27 but doesn't have complete coverage yet Sep 27 12:35:30 and besides, not everyone cares about the 'legally' bit :p Sep 27 12:35:31 It is not primetime. Sep 27 12:35:40 Or anywhere close. Sep 27 12:35:51 The trunk network is mostly complete, and some cities. Sep 27 12:35:54 it would be easy to plot your gps position onto a google map though Sep 27 12:35:54 so i take it this phone will be similar to a laptop running linux? Sep 27 12:35:55 SpeedEvil: well, zoomed out a lot, there's an awful lot that has some coverage. Sep 27 12:36:03 Other stuff is _horribly_ patchy. Sep 27 12:36:04 and that would be perfectly legal Sep 27 12:36:21 Unclemantis: openmoko is simply a linux distribution. Sep 27 12:36:25 ok Sep 27 12:36:34 Unclemantis: which is targetted at phones. Sep 27 12:36:40 so basicly it will be able to do anything that linux does on a laptop or desktop right? Sep 27 12:36:51 so the sky is the limit Sep 27 12:36:52 within limitations, sure Sep 27 12:36:54 Unclemantis: basiclly - with hardware limits Sep 27 12:37:03 i wonder if if SecondLife will be able to run on it LOL Sep 27 12:37:06 "if you're patient enough" ;) Sep 27 12:37:14 it'll be able to do anything a pentium 1 400MHz can do. Sep 27 12:37:20 ugh Sep 27 12:37:29 cjb_ie: it's very limited at the moment in places - for example, before I came along, my local town of 40K was entirely missing Sep 27 12:37:32 rwhitby: not quite, it doesn't have FPU, I believe Sep 27 12:37:35 so basicly the pentinum 2 i have in the garage will be fine for development? Sep 27 12:37:35 233Mhz Sep 27 12:37:47 And no MMX or FPU Sep 27 12:37:52 viq: true. ok, less than a P1 400MHz :-) Sep 27 12:37:59 so think maybe pentium-1 150 equiv. Sep 27 12:38:02 Unclemantis: depends what you mean by development. Sep 27 12:38:05 (though there was no such thing) Sep 27 12:38:10 why dont arms have a fpu? Sep 27 12:38:13 (with graphich hardware accel) Sep 27 12:38:20 building apps and running the emulator in close to real time Sep 27 12:38:25 no one really needs an fpu Sep 27 12:38:35 except scientists Sep 27 12:38:43 Unclemantis: building apps and the emulator needs as fast a CPU as you can. Sep 27 12:39:09 It takes a dozen hours or so on the average machine to build the entire tree. Sep 27 12:39:18 rwhitby: can I force the Makefile to rebuild the kernel? Sep 27 12:39:19 cjb_ie: and my local city of 140K had one road. Sep 27 12:39:43 DukeOfURL: yep "make rebuild-package-" Sep 27 12:39:56 rwhitby: thx Sep 27 12:40:13 well back to the grind Sep 27 12:40:16 been a pleasure folks Sep 27 12:41:00 WAve. Sep 27 12:41:57 hello all, can i safely say that linux on openmoko is exactly the same as if it was on a PC? Sep 27 12:41:58 guys I finally managed to boot a few lines into the freebsd kernel :D Sep 27 12:42:24 Maledictus, ? Sep 27 12:42:27 freebsd on the neo? Sep 27 12:42:35 ah yes, /me remembers from the wiki Sep 27 12:42:36 nice Sep 27 12:42:40 yep, in qemu-neo1973 to be exact Sep 27 12:42:42 really nice Sep 27 12:42:46 really really nice Sep 27 12:43:00 not really far though, having problems with mmu :) Sep 27 12:43:32 vicovin: not quite - but apart from the hardware differences and different drivers, yes Sep 27 12:43:54 vicovin: you can in principle install debian, or ubuntu onto the phone (if you recompiled it all for arm) Sep 27 12:44:17 Openmoko is simply another distribution, optimised for phones. Sep 27 12:44:28 (at the moment, other devices may follow) Sep 27 12:44:42 Maledictus, keep up the good work :) Sep 27 12:44:55 I will, thanks :) Sep 27 12:45:13 Maledictus: Why, when you can run linux! Sep 27 12:45:20 * SpeedEvil backs away from the strange person. Sep 27 12:45:21 It's all new for me, embedded, arm assembler... Sep 27 12:45:23 :) Sep 27 12:45:26 SpeedEvil: thanks for the info! does it mean its actually linux ARM ports, and not like those from MontaVista? Sep 27 12:45:41 SpeedEvil: because I can ;P Sep 27 12:45:55 and because freebsd rocks Sep 27 12:45:58 Maledictus: or, techinally at the moment, "because I can't" ;) Sep 27 12:45:59 vicovin: it's basically a normal linux distribution, using the normal (though cross-compiled) source Sep 27 12:46:13 Much of the source is in fact desktop source Sep 27 12:46:14 viq: yep :) Sep 27 12:46:20 rather than custom, but... Sep 27 12:50:24 cool :) Sep 27 12:52:55 i was looking for open source phones and bumped into mobilinux from monta vista; thought it was THE open source phone until I noticed that the Linux kernel is customised, and CLOSED source :( Sep 27 12:53:28 sounds like a GPL violation? Sep 27 12:53:40 and later, bumped into OpenMoko; and it revived my spirit for true open source in mobiles :) Sep 27 12:54:11 cjb_je: it may be Sep 27 12:54:46 but i noticed they trimmed down the stock kernel towards more "real-time" os capabilities Sep 27 12:55:26 for "faster" performance Sep 27 12:55:31 Anyone heard anything about gllin yet ? Sep 27 12:56:22 gllin? Sep 27 12:57:15 vicovin: what makes you think mobilinux is closed source? Sep 27 12:57:16 from the wiki "userpsace driver for a hammerhead chip" Sep 27 12:57:16 viconvin: The gps driver that will be released anyday now !!! Sep 27 12:57:37 ... for a couple of months :I Sep 27 12:58:12 rwhitby: i can't download the customised kernel source from anywhere Sep 27 12:58:23 frma71: any day can occur sometime from now to T+4 billion years Sep 27 12:58:28 vicovin: have you purchased a product from them? Sep 27 12:58:35 nopes Sep 27 12:58:58 then you have no right to expect the source. GPL says you only get to ask for source if you get the binary. Sep 27 12:59:01 only a fren who has a motorola linux handset which i presume is loaded from mobilinux Sep 27 12:59:08 it's not Sep 27 12:59:39 ah Sep 27 12:59:39 if you buy their product, and they don't give you the kernel source *then*, then it's a GPL violation. Sep 27 13:00:01 ic, thanks for the clarification! Sep 27 13:00:07 if you buy a phone with it on...L Sep 27 13:00:14 if you buy a phone with it on...? Sep 27 13:00:16 until you get the binary and see whether it has a written GPL offer with it, you have no way of knowing. Sep 27 13:00:35 monta vista knows all about the GPL. I would not expect them to be violating it. Sep 27 13:00:36 which means if i do purchase a monta vista loaded phone, i have the right to request for the phone's full source code Sep 27 13:00:48 from monta vista Sep 27 13:00:57 no, you have the right to request the parts of the phone which are built from GPL'd source. Sep 27 13:01:00 regardless of the phone manufacturer i got it from Sep 27 13:01:08 now, what happens if you _lease_ a phone from a cellco? Sep 27 13:01:22 read up on the "mere aggregation" clause of the GPL. Sep 27 13:01:49 for the Linux kernel, what you said is true. Sep 27 13:01:51 ic, means i will only have access to parts of the source code which is GPL'ed Sep 27 13:01:56 correct. Sep 27 13:02:53 * rwhitby takes issue with people "crying wolf" over the GPL - it distracts attention from the real violators. Sep 27 13:03:04 :D Sep 27 13:03:47 so if they customised the linux kernel, only the bits which are GPLed will be publicly available Sep 27 13:04:33 that is everything as far as the kernel is concerned. you can't "merely aggregate" bits of the kernel. Sep 27 13:04:43 but userspace apps can be closed source Sep 27 13:05:06 (as long as they aren't derived from, or link against, GPL'd code. Sep 27 13:06:39 thanks for the clarification! this means for openmoko, all of its code is GPL'd and we have access to the source in all its glory :) Sep 27 13:07:15 no, a lot of openmoko code is intentionally LGPL'd so that people can do closed source stuff. Sep 27 13:07:53 <_buz> still means you get to see OM code Sep 27 13:08:15 i'm surprised to se the message about gta02 in the chan topic Sep 27 13:08:24 ironically, all of Qtopia is GPL'd, but not all of OpenMoko is (some is LGPL'd) :-) Sep 27 13:08:43 (Qtopia is dual licensed, you have to buy it for commercial use) Sep 27 13:08:56 khaije: the topic is unlocked - anyone can write anything there Sep 27 13:09:43 rwhitby: these are great information....its good to be clear on the GPL stuff Sep 27 13:09:47 rwhitby: indeed, there are so many true intentional violations of the GPL, that every time someone cries wolf, people start to ignore it when their is a real problem Sep 27 13:10:09 Do we know if that Dec date is P0 or P1 (it can't be P2 IMO) Sep 27 13:10:17 prpplague: amen Sep 27 13:10:28 <[Avatar]> hi to everyone ;) Sep 27 13:10:31 <_buz> in my interpretation of what mickey said that would be P1 Sep 27 13:11:04 that makes sense. I've always said Nov for P0 and Jan for P1, so we'll see if they beat my prediction :-) Sep 27 13:11:16 <_buz> i hope for 15th dec p1 Sep 27 13:11:20 <_buz> so to get one for xmas ;) Sep 27 13:11:45 rwhitby: you guys using any additional sdram other than whats on the 2442? Sep 27 13:12:43 frma71: nice! gllin = updated gps driver? Sep 27 13:12:50 wasn't the p2 release scheduled for the start of this year at one point? Sep 27 13:13:12 it's hard for me to keep track of :-/ Sep 27 13:13:32 khaije: yes it was. that's hardware development for you. Sep 27 13:13:45 well, Q1 this year I think. Sep 27 13:14:29 prpplague: "you guys" == ? (I don't work for OpenMoko) Sep 27 13:15:09 rwhitby: i ment generically, if you knew if the 2442 based neo was using any additional sdram Sep 27 13:15:18 128M Sep 27 13:15:21 rwhitby: ah the anticipation! Sep 27 13:15:21 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973_Hardware#RAM Sep 27 13:15:23 :-) Sep 27 13:15:47 rwhitby: yea, that seems to indicate that its just the sdram thats available on the 2442, but wasn't sure Sep 27 13:16:10 prpplague: that says two samsung ram chips Sep 27 13:16:26 rwhitby: yea that page is for the first neo which uses the 2410 Sep 27 13:16:28 or are you talking GTA01? Sep 27 13:16:37 oh, you're asking about GTA02. Sep 27 13:16:40 rwhitby: naw, rev 2 that uses the 2442 Sep 27 13:16:49 128M Sep 27 13:17:06 I would expect it to be the same. Sep 27 13:17:30 XorA: yes i see the amount the question is if its all on the 2442 or partly on seperate chips Sep 27 13:17:37 rwhitby: the 2442 has intergrated sdram Sep 27 13:17:48 128MB of it? Sep 27 13:17:56 that'd be a costly processor. Sep 27 13:17:58 rwhitby: that is one configuration of the 2442 Sep 27 13:18:04 rwhitby: actually not that bad Sep 27 13:18:05 prpplague: I thought 64M was max size of 2442 stack Sep 27 13:18:15 * rwhitby stands corrected. Sep 27 13:18:30 XorA: i'll doubt check but i was told we could get a 128mb version Sep 27 13:18:34 prpplague: got a link to a 2442 datasheet? Sep 27 13:18:44 rwhitby: google s3c2442 :-) Sep 27 13:19:26 rwhitby: yea one sec Sep 27 13:19:54 XorA: I am, that's why I'm asking prpplague, cause Google is not finding anything in the first couple of hits .. Sep 27 13:19:56 * XorA isnt allowed to answer the RAM question Sep 27 13:20:00 Segmentation fault of doom! Sep 27 13:20:17 rwhitby: smasung recently changed all their web site docs and such Sep 27 13:20:20 rwhitby: http://www.samsung.com/global/business/semiconductor/productInfo.do?fmly_id=229&partnum=SC32442 Sep 27 13:20:31 prpplague: thx Sep 27 13:20:32 rwhitby: i don't believe the full datasheet is posted any longer Sep 27 13:20:35 rwhitby: WTF it used to be second link on google Sep 27 13:20:43 rwhitby: someones been messing up pagerank again Sep 27 13:21:26 prpplague: yeah, I was hoping you'd have a link to the full datasheet, cause I couldn't find it on google or the samsung site. Sep 27 13:21:50 (the thousand page one, not the 2 page e-brochure :-) Sep 27 13:22:08 * XorA has full datasheet here Sep 27 13:22:17 XorA: yea, me too Sep 27 13:22:29 * prpplague has two completed designs based on the 2440 and 2442 Sep 27 13:22:32 but you both are probably under NDA Sep 27 13:22:52 prpplague: 128MB or 128Mb ? Sep 27 13:22:58 XorA: yea, the datasheet and spec i have only lists 64mb available Sep 27 13:23:15 rwhitby: 512megabit x 32 Sep 27 13:23:35 prpplague, IIRC someone said that it has 64mb internal Sep 27 13:23:40 and then an external 64mb chip Sep 27 13:23:48 * XorA wonders why samsung suddenly gone all marvel with datasheet Sep 27 13:23:51 cb22: thats what i suspected Sep 27 13:24:10 cb22: the question i have is what external sdram chip are they planning to use Sep 27 13:24:25 dunno, probably the same as gta01? Sep 27 13:25:39 anyone going to the arm developer conference next week? Sep 27 13:26:09 cb22: the adress/databus for the s3c2442 is 1.8v which is not the same as the gta01's using the s3c2410 Sep 27 13:26:23 cb22: which means they'd need to use a 1.8v mobile sdram Sep 27 13:26:24 (http://www.rtcgroup.com/arm/2007/) Sep 27 13:26:40 rwhitby: i wanted to, but we are in the middle of a serious dev cycle Sep 27 13:26:56 prpplague: is it worth going to? Sep 27 13:27:25 rwhitby: if you are heavy in to arm, i've heard its pretty good Sep 27 13:29:17 * rwhitby goes back to trying to get an NSLU2 to be an AP using a Zydas zd1211 usb wifi dongle ... Sep 27 13:29:48 rwhitby: http://www.elektronika.opatnet.cz/datasheet/U/um_s3c2442b_rev12.pdf Sep 27 13:30:04 thx Sep 27 13:31:16 rwhitby: np Sep 27 13:39:24 hello Sep 27 13:42:28 zecke: are the python bindings on http://projects.openmoko.org/projects/bindings/ fairly complete Sep 27 13:52:11 thos: fairly, the examples need updating Sep 27 13:52:27 thos: and I think mokojournal could be more pythonic and lacks a method or two Sep 27 13:54:01 hallo jungs Sep 27 13:54:06 hey guys Sep 27 13:54:33 zecke: lots of things in mokojournal could be improved ;-) Sep 27 13:54:57 took the newest build from scaredycat - tryed to open the dialer - nothing happend Sep 27 13:55:17 RalphEichelberge: what dates it the build? Sep 27 13:55:42 <_diego__> does anybody know if gdb works fine on neo? Sep 27 13:55:44 than i shut down X and gsmd and tryed to directly connect to modem using cu Sep 27 13:55:57 after connect it stalled Sep 27 13:56:09 _diego__: as long as you have dbg packages installed it should work Sep 27 13:56:20 RalphEichelberge: does contacts load? Sep 27 13:56:25 26 th Sep Sep 27 13:56:48 <_diego__> I've installed matchbox-2-panel_dbg Sep 27 13:56:49 i have to take a look Sep 27 13:57:04 <_diego__> gdb /usr/bin/matchbox-2-panel Sep 27 13:57:16 <_diego__> and gdb says that not have debug symbols Sep 27 13:57:35 _diego__: you may need to enable debug build in bitbake conf Sep 27 13:58:26 <_diego__> thos: do u have some link about it? Sep 27 13:58:35 well i just connected to my neo via ssh and started the X server again Sep 27 13:58:42 _diego__: no, sorry Sep 27 13:58:52 the cooles thing is that the screen is still black Sep 27 13:59:25 and i cant wake it Sep 27 13:59:50 RalphEichelberge: take the battery out and start again? Sep 27 13:59:52 is there anything i can do to switch the lights on? Sep 27 14:00:06 <_diego__> RalphEichelberge: are u still connected to neo? Often when happened to me, it some problem in starting up X Sep 27 14:00:16 RalphEichelberge: I fixed a bug yesterday (or possibly the day before) that was preventing gui applications from working properly Sep 27 14:00:20 <_diego__> look if X is running Sep 27 14:00:43 yes X is running Sep 27 14:00:48 neod is running Sep 27 14:00:54 openmoko-today too Sep 27 14:01:50 well - i had to stop /etc/init.d/xserver-nodm stop and start again Sep 27 14:02:03 now i have lights up again :) Sep 27 14:02:57 if i klick on the Dialer (upper left hand corner icon) it is loading and loading and .... Sep 27 14:03:46 <_diego__> btw: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973:GTA01:Kernel Sep 27 14:04:18 RalphEichelberge: does the address book load? Sep 27 14:04:21 if i try to start the dialer app from the apps list i get the splash screen Sep 27 14:04:29 no address book dont load Sep 27 14:04:49 RalphEichelberge: update your libmokoui Sep 27 14:04:58 RalphEichelberge: it is out of date and has a bug Sep 27 14:05:09 like how? Sep 27 14:05:15 ipkg? Sep 27 14:08:34 RalphEichelberge: yes, or just flash a new image Sep 27 14:08:51 which new image? Sep 27 14:08:55 url? Sep 27 14:09:09 an image newer than your previous one :-) Sep 27 14:09:42 i was building since 2 days before but it didnt complete - now i am building again (for 2 day probalby) Sep 27 14:09:50 there is none Sep 27 14:10:03 i have the one from 27. Sep Sep 27 14:10:25 _diego_ : cool link btw :) Sep 27 14:11:11 do you have a ipkg with the new gui? Sep 27 14:25:21 where's the darn terminal on qtopia... Sep 27 14:30:28 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[FreeBSD]] Sep 27 14:31:34 hmm Sep 27 14:31:36 thats delayed Sep 27 14:33:58 yep Sep 27 14:34:49 Maledictus, stop hanging around here and carry on getting freebsd to work :) Sep 27 14:34:56 * cb22 needs to learn c sometime Sep 27 14:34:59 hehe Sep 27 14:35:16 I'm not even out of the assembler part :( Sep 27 14:35:37 nearly ;) Sep 27 14:36:25 heh Sep 27 14:45:44 he, there is a freebsd port on the way? wow! Sep 27 14:47:27 what's good about freebsd, compared to linux? Sep 27 14:49:23 jpcass_ nothing.. its just different Sep 27 14:50:06 hi Sep 27 14:50:11 jpcass we also could start a senseless license or paradigm based discussion about it, but in the end its good we don't have a monoculture in the oss world Sep 27 14:50:18 hehe Sep 27 14:50:21 nice answer roh Sep 27 14:50:21 hahahahah, amazing, I'm seriously starting to think none of you guys are real, since it's impossible to get fic to charge our CCs Sep 27 14:50:26 the rest does not matter really ;) Sep 27 14:50:29 FIC should accept paypal :P Sep 27 14:50:44 Fatal: where are you located? Sep 27 14:50:54 Fatal: would you prefer that you CC be charged but nothing shipped? Sep 27 14:50:55 sweden Sep 27 14:51:08 rwhitby: true :) Sep 27 14:51:09 Fatal cc charging on the 3rd shipping started some days ago Sep 27 14:51:22 roh: yeah I know Sep 27 14:51:32 Fatal: i first had the same impression but now i play around with such a thing ;) Sep 27 14:51:32 * XorA will happily charge a CC for nothing :-D Sep 27 14:51:54 * rwhitby will charge a CC, and pay the owner 50% back ;-) Sep 27 14:53:05 Fatal: if you want I could arrange to have a picture taken of my P1 today to convince you I do exist :p Sep 27 14:53:28 I'm really just a bot Sep 27 14:53:38 LarstiQ: only with a newspaper from today please... Sep 27 14:53:39 It's kind of amusing though, orderd the first day, and they still haven't tried the second cc we sent in (first one didn't work since mastercards full security protocol isn't used by whomever FIC use) and by the looks of the latest mail from FIC they tried the mastercard _again_ and not the visa we sent in over a month ago Sep 27 14:54:08 Fatal: it's a conspiracy against the swedes. Sep 27 14:54:11 (which we sent in to get the phones they said they had "reserved" for us) Sep 27 14:54:15 no, they just hate me Sep 27 14:54:29 never knew there was an IRC channel for the OpenMoko Sep 27 14:54:34 I'm dying to lay my hands on one Sep 27 14:54:52 the GTA02 is the final release for the market ? Sep 27 14:54:52 CVirus: dont die too quickly then Sep 27 14:54:53 CVirus: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (and also SH1, SH1_FAQ, Neo1973, Developer_preview and Neo1973_Hardware#GTA01Bv4 pages) (Hopefully these links answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.) Sep 27 14:54:53 emdete: I was thinking of doing it with irc on the background Sep 27 14:54:58 (which one week later when we poked joustons private mail had been sent to someone else and they never botherd to use the cc we sent them) Sep 27 14:55:01 :D Sep 27 14:55:04 GNN :D Sep 27 14:55:06 Fatal: well.. taiwan is not in the un (due to china) and thus all bank-stuff is even worse when it comes to international payments. so we very often have problems with fraud-protection Sep 27 14:55:43 maybe the eu should adopt taiwan Sep 27 14:55:52 Maledictus hrhr Sep 27 14:55:54 if the hardware wouldn't have changed from the GTA01 to the GTA02 ... I would have got myself a GTA01 Sep 27 14:55:54 :) Sep 27 14:56:09 Maledictus: that involves making a statement on the status of Taiwan China will not be happy with. Sep 27 14:56:22 yes, hihi Sep 27 14:56:32 we could ship Neos from Seaworld :-D Sep 27 14:56:41 sealand? Sep 27 14:56:43 Fatal: if all else fails I recommend attending the 24C3 with some spare cash Sep 27 14:56:53 cjb_ie: yeah sorry, was think amusment park for some reason Sep 27 14:57:07 www.sealandneo.com Sep 27 14:57:16 anyone got a phone number to FIC in tw? :) Sep 27 14:57:30 Fatal: your talking to FIC Sep 27 14:57:56 XorA: who? Sep 27 14:58:23 * XorA beleives roh is OpenMoko community liason or something or other Sep 27 14:59:00 Fatal: well.. even with a phonenumber you will not get the right person.. also its abut 23:00 there Sep 27 14:59:10 a for crying out loud Sep 27 14:59:34 ayway I is off Sep 27 15:00:26 I think the biggest insult ( :) ) was that jouston simply sent a boilerplate the last time Sep 27 15:01:22 Fatal: hm? i can assure you that he's trying really hard to keep you guys happy when it comes to cc and shipping stuff. but he also is one of less that 5 people who need to handle all this Sep 27 15:02:52 * SpeedEvil contemplates shipping from seaworld. Sep 27 15:02:59 Tie it to a dolphin? Sep 27 15:11:58 * mwester thinks the dolphin would mistake the orange-and-white neo for a toy. Sep 27 15:12:06 Good Morning. Sep 27 15:12:08 Flipper! Sep 27 15:12:51 jouston is overloaded, and it shows. Sep 27 15:12:57 * mwester does the happy dance, because his overnight build completed without errors. Sep 27 15:13:11 that said, he did a good job getting my neo back from germany. :) Sep 27 15:13:28 * Writchie|zzzZZZz thinks mwester is tempting the gods of murphy Sep 27 15:15:47 :) You're mixing your gods there. I think I'm tempting fate, and murphy is his prophet. Sep 27 15:16:28 I shall flash the image, and see if I have indeed incurred the wrath of the powers that be. Sep 27 15:17:12 .oO(crc error.) Sep 27 15:17:15 mmester: ya gonna do u-boot too just for fun? Sep 27 15:18:49 I really should. And if it actually worked, wouldn't that just infuriate Murphy? Sep 27 15:19:20 Any Egyptians around ? Sep 27 15:21:24 FIC was supposed to announce 5 other phones running OpenMoko this month Sep 27 15:21:34 It was? Sep 27 15:23:25 can anybody here give information about ARM devel boards? Sep 27 15:23:53 mmazur: There will also be 5 more OpenMoko devices - some not phones in the traditional sense - announced by FIC in September. Sep 27 15:24:06 mmazur: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ#Q:_What_can_we_expect_in_future_versions.3F Sep 27 15:25:06 CVirus that does not mean we will anounce all future phones now (not that it would make any sense at all) Sep 27 15:25:28 CVirus when gta02 will be finally released, we will announce what comes next. Sep 27 15:25:33 I see Sep 27 15:25:47 I'm just very frustrated about the size of the Neo1973 screen Sep 27 15:27:32 CVirus: in what way? Sep 27 15:27:45 LarstiQ: 2.8'' Sep 27 15:27:51 is there any ARM discussion irc channels here ? Sep 27 15:28:11 CVirus: so..? Sep 27 15:28:20 LarstiQ: I'm short sighted Sep 27 15:28:20 CVirus: that small, that large, that bright, too high resolution, too small resolution, or what? Sep 27 15:28:35 ah .. it's small Sep 27 15:28:51 CVirus: so am I, but I wear glasses and find it's fine Sep 27 15:28:52 too clear! not touch sensitive enough! too big! Sep 27 15:28:59 * juri_ runs Sep 27 15:29:08 juri_: it's also covered in fingerprints! Sep 27 15:29:09 hehe Sep 27 15:29:20 * LarstiQ would welcome better readability in sunlight Sep 27 15:29:23 And the usb slot can't power my vibrator! Sep 27 15:29:35 It's got a built in one. Sep 27 15:29:40 Though it's not waterproof. Sep 27 15:29:43 viq: pfft, any decent... dynf SpeedEvil Sep 27 15:29:47 viq: i've got a power injector for that... uh.. i mean.. Sep 27 15:29:48 just put it in a condom Sep 27 15:30:20 * viq laughs Sep 27 15:30:42 hey, a touch sensitive vibrator Sep 27 15:30:48 there's gotta be a market opening there Sep 27 15:34:48 Five more devices announced by FIC in September? Sep 27 15:35:38 is the current svn uboot-openmoko able to boot from SD? Sep 27 15:36:18 psymin: supposedly Sep 27 15:45:15 thomasg: I boot my test freebsd kernel from emulated SD in qemu-neo1973 Sep 27 15:53:36 CIA-23: you suck Sep 27 15:53:43 I just did an important commit, and you quit! Sep 27 15:55:42 re Sep 27 15:56:03 thos: perhaps it wanted better wages? Sep 27 16:25:39 hi. I am not asking about when the GTA02 will be available, I can't wait but will there be GPS route planning for Vancouver, BC, Canada? Sep 27 16:26:20 chx: get involved with openstreetmap...? :) Sep 27 16:26:31 cjb_ie: maybe? Sep 27 16:26:46 chihchun: probably not Sep 27 16:26:54 at least not at launch Sep 27 16:27:04 cjb_ie: I am one of the lead developers of an opensource cms so floss community is not alien to me so yes i can get involved but my c and c++ skills are rusty to say the least Sep 27 16:27:11 it requries either free maps, which are very spotty outside US and netherlansd. Sep 27 16:27:23 chx: well, i'm talking about gathering free maps, more so than coding Sep 27 16:27:25 Or a paid app - which is not done. Sep 27 16:27:35 cjb_ie: in other words, i have not written a single line of C/C++ code in the last eight years or so Sep 27 16:27:40 ah Sep 27 16:27:41 gathering Sep 27 16:27:43 there's work being done in the osm community on routing apps. Sep 27 16:27:44 what that involves Sep 27 16:27:56 oh i'd be fine with a paid app Sep 27 16:27:56 get out there with a GPS and get annotating :) Sep 27 16:28:06 heh Sep 27 16:28:21 I am waiting for a PR visa to Vancouver Sep 27 16:28:29 and I am currently in Budapest, Hungary Sep 27 16:28:33 there's a lot of work to do, but there's lots of progress being made Sep 27 16:28:35 so that's somewhat... problematic. Sep 27 16:28:50 ah. /me passed through feriheygi airport a few weeks ago :) Sep 27 16:30:08 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Student_phone]] Sep 27 16:40:04 openmoko: 03chris * r3053 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007.2/libraries/libmokoui2/ (ChangeLog libmokoui/moko-hint-entry.c): Sep 27 16:40:04 openmoko: * libmokoui/moko-hint-entry.c: (moko_hint_entry_set_text): Sep 27 16:40:04 openmoko: Make sure to reset the hinting status before setting text Sep 27 16:59:20 I remember reading about this but can not remember what to do about it. I built the latest image and get " Useless empty GtkIconSource". Can someone point me to the wiki or even the log archive for this IRC? Sep 27 17:01:06 cindy: log archive: http://logs.nslu2-linux.org/livelogs/openmoko/ Sep 27 17:01:29 Thanks! Sep 27 17:08:47 have you guys given any thought to adding a slideout keyboard/pad ? Sep 27 17:08:48 xbitflux: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (and also SH1, SH1_FAQ, Neo1973, Developer_preview and Neo1973_Hardware#GTA01Bv4 pages) (Hopefully these links answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.) Sep 27 17:09:22 xbitflux: my *guess* is that some future model will have something like that Sep 27 17:10:38 I know that the units are backordered, but I'm a serious developer and I have commerical interest in the hardware.. any way to get one ? Sep 27 17:12:32 hmm... nice.. I ordered my neo two days ago, and today I got a confirmation that they charged me, and it would ship soon :) Sep 27 17:13:01 that is, guess I'll just order one directly Sep 27 17:16:10 * mwester is now completely convinced that the gsm modem power-up and switching should have been done as mods to the serial driver. Sep 27 17:16:54 who is working on the power management code ? Sep 27 17:24:43 xbitflux: no-one admits to it - according to roh most things for resume have been tested except for gsm modem Sep 27 17:39:46 sup folks? Sep 27 17:41:58 cindy: That issue has been fixed yesterday and the temporary workaround was to use an older version of libmokoui2 Sep 27 17:42:41 Sup torpor ;3 Sep 27 17:44:15 anything new folks? Sep 27 17:44:23 been a while since i sync'ed up with moko .. Sep 27 17:45:02 I always wonder what kind of response people expect to this question, heh Sep 27 17:45:48 Maybe something like "sure, the new snapshot has software for controling bluetooth-enabled coffe makers". Sep 27 17:45:53 Come to thing about it. Sep 27 17:45:59 I'm patenting that! Sep 27 17:46:14 i really wish it did Sep 27 17:46:26 i wish there was an openmoko cheerleader who was keeping everyone informed about whats going on .. Sep 27 17:46:30 really a drag to have to *ask* .. Sep 27 17:47:03 you don't have to ask, you could just search/read.... Sep 27 17:47:15 where? what? Sep 27 17:47:22 there is no central location for news Sep 27 17:47:31 asking in IRC is the only way to get news. Sep 27 17:47:33 its called staying involved. Sep 27 17:47:38 planet.openmoko == dumb Sep 27 17:47:41 torpor: read community, if yu can deal with it Sep 27 17:47:46 i do read it. Sep 27 17:47:48 s/yu/you Sep 27 17:47:54 ferric, staying involved? You're talking like a woman ;) Sep 27 17:47:59 i am a woman Sep 27 17:48:07 uh oh Sep 27 17:48:10 * torpor ducks Sep 27 17:48:13 Erm. Sep 27 17:48:15 That was... Sep 27 17:48:18 Unexpected. Sep 27 17:48:19 oh no. i didn't just say that. Sep 27 17:48:24 mmazur: just kidding. Sep 27 17:48:34 hillarious! Sep 27 17:48:59 lol, like any open-source project OpenMoko knowledge must be earned, not gathered Sep 27 17:49:17 profound Sep 27 17:49:24 well i sit here and watch the logs every day. i make update every day. i read the lists every day. Sep 27 17:49:38 i'm just wondering if anyone who is actually alive in the channel right now has news. Sep 27 17:50:52 torpor: the project manager has been locked up in a closet for nine months now Sep 27 17:50:58 I bricked my NEO trying to get the correct uBoot env to allow dual environment (openmoko & qtopia) last weekend Sep 27 17:51:14 Then spent this week using the debug board to revive it Sep 27 17:51:19 Writchie: i know, you told me the same thing last week .. Sep 27 17:51:36 gcb77_work: would be good to hear about your results tho .. Sep 27 17:51:46 you gonna get boot-from-SD set up so you can do that with openmoko? Sep 27 17:51:49 I got both running right now Sep 27 17:52:38 the default env did not work for me, had to add my own entry to boot from SD (copied from the wiki page) Sep 27 17:52:54 It was the only way to get around the kernel "set correct root=" message Sep 27 18:04:57 so.. um, has anyone experienced bug #883 when making calls? Sep 27 18:05:28 (audible GSM interference) Sep 27 18:09:17 I hear GSM interference when the antena powers up and the NEO is near my computer speakers... but that happens with other GSM phones Sep 27 18:10:18 gcb77_work: go in the stairwell, or some place you have less than 2 bars of signal and make a call Sep 27 18:11:06 or if you can call an Iowa/US number I can let you listen to it ;) Sep 27 18:13:46 hozer: I had this for a while when the audio wasn't set up correctly. When I eliminated the sidetone through the mixers the problem disappearred along with near end and far end echos. Sep 27 18:14:11 interesting Sep 27 18:14:16 what is the sidetone? Sep 27 18:14:25 and can you post that comment to the bug report? Sep 27 18:14:59 sidetone is an ancient telephone artifact whereby you hear your own voice in order to keep you from talking too loud. Sep 27 18:15:59 torpor: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Special:Recentchanges for news ;) Sep 27 18:16:26 hozer: it was introduced in early telephone sets (308/500) to provide automatic talker compensation on longer lines Sep 27 18:17:29 Writchie: ah.. a google for 'gsm sidetone' turns up some interesting info on the iphone Sep 27 18:21:27 i find the gsm background noise funny. The network puts noise on your signal to give you confidence that the line is working. Somehow it would be anying if there where absolute silence when noone speaks. Sep 27 18:21:51 And it is. Sep 27 18:21:53 "Are you there?" Sep 27 18:22:13 dkr: thanks Sep 27 18:22:20 DPThought: it's not just background noise.. it's RF interference.. getting into the audio Sep 27 18:22:25 DPThought: the background noise (comfort noise) is IIRC from the handset Sep 27 18:23:04 DPThought: comfort noise is pretty much "white noise" - the GSM interference burst are unmistakedly different Sep 27 18:25:18 I found out what it sounded like putting a regular corded handset next to my neo when testing it out ;) Sep 27 18:25:46 cdma seems to make no audible interference.. Sep 27 18:26:11 hozer: the noise is characteristic of tdma Sep 27 18:26:47 it's easily picked up by high impedance audio circuits that have little rf suppression Sep 27 18:27:04 yea, that aspect of gsm really sucks. You get these sounds everywhere. Even shut down speakers come to life when a handset is pinging :) Sep 27 18:27:53 so what I'm wondering is if GTA02 will have this problem.. Sep 27 18:28:05 hozer: what problem? Sep 27 18:28:10 or if adjusting the sidetone can fix it Sep 27 18:28:25 bug 883 Sep 27 18:28:48 at present I have zero audio problems near or far end - call is indistinquishable from other GSM handsets Sep 27 18:29:12 http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=883 Sep 27 18:29:18 except for neo receive speaker maybe having some audio shaping problems Sep 27 18:30:00 hozer: you can't tell if this is a real problem until the audio setup is completely correct. Sep 27 18:30:22 can you put some comments in the bug on how to fix the audio Sep 27 18:30:42 will do Sep 27 18:31:12 it's definitely related to signal strength of the tower Sep 27 18:32:03 hozer: the noise is proportional to transmit level - the further you are from the tower the higher your transmit power Sep 27 18:32:25 hozer: I am at so-called one bar on most handsets. Sep 27 18:33:07 mhh asus eee will use atheros chip, any chance that is ar6k as well? Sep 27 18:33:39 hozer: BTW - I tested with SMS during an active call and the signalling noise is gone: Sep 27 18:33:51 buz i don't think so. rather a normal 5xxx series or other notebook stuff Sep 27 18:34:15 5xxx doesnt seem very well (if at all) supported even in 2.6.22 Sep 27 18:34:33 on my GF's notebook, 2.6.22 doesnt even figure out it's a wifi chip Sep 27 18:35:04 is there any public server with latest builds? (is http://buildhost.openmoko.org/ sometimes stale?) Sep 27 18:35:07 should I make one? Sep 27 18:35:44 a by the way. completely unrelated question but maybe soneone knows the answer. Is there something like a standard vor LCD modules and touchpads like pin layout and drivers? I have here a Nokia 770 with a broken Display and i like to somehow add a new one. The original display seems unavailable on the open marked Sep 27 18:36:04 DPThought: Sadly not Sep 27 18:36:26 n770 lately have become quite cheap Sep 27 18:36:34 chances are an open market lcd might cost more Sep 27 18:36:37 $135 Sep 27 18:36:46 doubt you'd find a display for that Sep 27 18:36:50 Yeah. For sure. Sep 27 18:36:59 good point Sep 27 18:37:13 shame they dont sell em where i live Sep 27 18:37:18 at that price i'd pick one up Sep 27 18:37:20 i paid more than that for modules only a year ago Sep 27 18:37:26 Writchie: Thanks for the info Sep 27 18:37:43 but maybe a salvaged display from something really cheap. broken psp or something like that Sep 27 18:38:03 But no standard connector nor controller. Sep 27 18:38:03 psp doesnt even have the same resolution Sep 27 18:38:13 DPThought: that kind of luck rarely happens Sep 27 18:38:34 there arn't all that many WVGA in that size Sep 27 18:39:09 its too big for phone and too small for notebooks, so yes, few people will buy them Sep 27 18:39:25 resolution and size would be more or less unimportant. As long as i can get it to work on the same pins without too crazy hacks Sep 27 18:40:04 i doubt hildon would work particularly well on another resolution Sep 27 18:40:12 would put it into a different case Sep 27 18:40:31 and would nt use hildon. :) Sep 27 18:41:43 Is GTA02 the consumer version? Sep 27 18:41:43 jarthur: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (and also SH1, SH1_FAQ, Neo1973, Developer_preview and Neo1973_Hardware#GTA01Bv4 pages) (Hopefully these links answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.) Sep 27 18:41:54 moko or qtopia. Im not sure yet. I lke to put that stuff unto my old (really old) gsm handset and make a wlan ip-phone from that. (It's a old AEG Telecar Phne. About 5Kg weight) Sep 27 18:42:58 if the display stuff does not wirk i would probably switch to a serial dotmatrix display via usb. But would be a pitty Sep 27 18:48:52 so does qtopia come with sip? a 130$ sip wlan phone sure would be neat Sep 27 18:49:33 DPThought how will you connect that thing to wlan? Sep 27 18:49:44 kristian-m: n770 does have wlan Sep 27 18:50:09 buz he's got an old car-phone Sep 27 18:50:23 i suppose he wants to put the n770 hardware INTO that Sep 27 18:50:33 i see Sep 27 18:51:16 buz: jup, otopia has sip. Sep 27 18:51:41 there's an iax client too.. Sep 27 18:52:09 i cant be bothered to learn asterisk myself Sep 27 18:52:18 ahhh.. k... Sep 27 18:52:24 until someone comes up with a gui i can understand in 5min i just wont deal with it ;) Sep 27 18:52:26 well, it helps if you know it... :) Sep 27 18:52:42 qtopia would be a fairly complete soltion for me if i somehow get a framebuffer working Sep 27 18:53:20 or did anyone hear about external displays (usb, serial) with framebuffer drivers on linux? Sep 27 18:53:21 qvfb maybe? draw to x? Sep 27 18:53:29 there are usb vga cards Sep 27 18:53:29 all the asterisk gui's are crap, and it's not acttually that hard to learn Sep 27 18:53:41 The Qtopia Greephone is expensive though, ya? Sep 27 18:53:41 its just way overkill for what i need Sep 27 18:53:51 buz: that could be a soltion. i will look into that... Sep 27 18:53:55 i have a PAP2, that does everythin gi want (minus voicemail) Sep 27 18:54:07 jarthur: you can run qtopia on the neo Sep 27 18:54:18 oh, ok, mea culpa. :) Sep 27 18:54:35 soon there will be more neos running qtopia than greenphones Sep 27 18:54:42 lol Sep 27 18:54:50 (there would be already if fic actually shipped some neos ;) Sep 27 18:54:52 sure *g* Sep 27 18:54:52 The Neos are prettier. Sep 27 18:55:04 cost 40% of greenphone price Sep 27 18:55:36 i'm still not quite sure why the greenphone really costs that much Sep 27 18:55:38 Yea. Sep 27 18:55:39 So I'm thinking about buying the GTA01... but development hobbyism would be secondary for my need for a working phone with addressbook/bluetooth/etc. I assume the GTA01 is not for me then? Sep 27 18:55:54 supposedly it works quite well with qtopia Sep 27 18:55:59 it does Sep 27 18:56:08 qtopia sucks a bit without a keypad. it really looks a bit like it was never really intended this way Sep 27 18:56:14 i wouldnt say OM itself is useable right now Sep 27 18:56:17 if it's only a 2nd phone then it shouldn;t be a problem jarthur Sep 27 18:56:50 however, bye for no. going home... Sep 27 18:56:50 DPThought: it doesn't need a keypad at all Sep 27 18:56:57 Ahh, it'd be a primary phone. Thanks. Sep 27 18:57:18 as a primary phone, it'd be a bit soon Sep 27 18:57:19 My Palm Treo 680 bit the dust today. :) Sep 27 18:57:24 :( Sep 27 18:57:36 get a 20EUR prepay until neo actually ships again ;) Sep 27 18:57:47 Yea, :( is right. Bad investment on my part. Sep 27 18:58:12 That's an idea. Sep 27 18:58:36 yeah, even the crheapest pre-pay is more useable Sep 27 18:59:39 not really no Sep 27 18:59:49 i had to write sms on a keypad last night, pure horror Sep 27 18:59:56 :) Sep 27 19:00:01 i dont understand how 2billion people put up with that Sep 27 19:00:11 and go on complaining just how touchscreen suck Sep 27 19:00:14 How do you write SMS on the Neo, graffiti-style stylusing? Sep 27 19:00:29 softkeyboard Sep 27 19:00:33 ahh, ok Sep 27 19:00:59 * ScaredyCat hardly uses sms... Sep 27 19:01:04 neither do i Sep 27 19:01:14 it's by any means the most over priced form of traffic there is Sep 27 19:01:21 even satellite calls in airplanes are cheaper Sep 27 19:01:27 lol Sep 27 19:01:38 I've heard they're cheaper in Asia. Sep 27 19:01:45 SMSes that is. Sep 27 19:01:53 everything's cheaper in asia Sep 27 19:01:59 yeah, but the flight costs are the killer ;) Sep 27 19:02:07 I use it because it seems that girls I'm attracted to tend to prefer SMS over voice. Sep 27 19:02:41 they'd be too young for me then :) Sep 27 19:03:47 well sms sure beats voice Sep 27 19:03:47 all sorts of asynchronous communication beat voice calls Sep 27 19:04:14 age of consent isnt the same everywhere you know ;) Sep 27 19:05:05 it's not always about age of consent... it's about whether they're mature enough not to wreck your head Sep 27 19:05:21 anythin <25 is too young for me now Sep 27 19:06:04 ScaredyCat: yeah, i'm starting to think the same. Sep 27 19:06:10 cjb_ie: s/head/bed/ ? :P Sep 27 19:06:20 there's some damn cute 20 year olds around college though *sigh* Sep 27 19:06:26 heh Sep 27 19:06:36 they can wreck my bed all they want Sep 27 19:06:44 yeah, beds can be replaced Sep 27 19:06:46 and how old are you guys to keep yourselves to 25+s ? Sep 27 19:06:52 lol Sep 27 19:06:55 * ScaredyCat is an old fart Sep 27 19:07:14 * buz isnt, but still has no nerves to deal with 18y olds Sep 27 19:07:31 * cjb_ie is 20 (hex) Sep 27 19:07:32 "in my days, when the dinosaurs were still young..." ;) Sep 27 19:07:52 25 is the minimum age for people aged 36 to date, ref. xkcd Sep 27 19:08:04 oh yeah, half plus seven innit Sep 27 19:08:16 23 for me then Sep 27 19:08:19 yeah Sep 27 19:08:41 wait a second, they need to be older? Sep 27 19:08:43 SCNR Sep 27 19:08:48 * ScaredyCat is only 26 .... Sep 27 19:08:53 ... in hex Sep 27 19:08:56 :/ Sep 27 19:08:59 You poor thing :( Sep 27 19:09:04 lol Sep 27 19:09:13 It's cruel to let ppl live that long. Sep 27 19:09:18 lmao Sep 27 19:09:24 mmazur: yeah, put us out of our misery will you Sep 27 19:09:31 lol Sep 27 19:09:56 is it age or do the young ones get stupider every year? Sep 27 19:10:08 (personally i think it's hiphops fault) Sep 27 19:10:23 actually, I only want to hang around until the next couple of generations get to run the planet - I'm up for the laugh of the mess you're all about to make of it Sep 27 19:10:23 but i'm not entirely sure which direction the causality runs, really Sep 27 19:10:30 It must be terrible to be like over 25. Old, wrinkled, best years has passed. Sep 27 19:10:50 ... having to buy supplies from the friendly spammer ... Sep 27 19:10:54 what i love is when young punks think they're not getting older Sep 27 19:10:56 buz, 8) Sep 27 19:11:03 ScaredyCat: they get to see the mess we and our predesesors (sp?) made too... Sep 27 19:11:11 it won't be long until you're looking at those who are now 10 years old and go 'what the fuck?" Sep 27 19:11:24 * mmazur planning to live forever and be forever young Sep 27 19:11:27 It's been working so far. Sep 27 19:11:33 <-- still 17 at heart. Sep 27 19:11:36 37 by the book Sep 27 19:11:38 I'm pretty sure you're right buz... Sep 27 19:12:00 one usually is right about OR statements you know ;) Sep 27 19:12:21 buz: not necessarily :P Sep 27 19:12:22 viq: yes... but the young ones now just seem .. well, errm, stupid Sep 27 19:12:26 Holy crap. Sep 27 19:12:40 mmazur: actually it's pretty good to be over 25. you learn a lot of things about yourself and the world that you don't even realize you could learn when you're younger Sep 27 19:12:40 yeah but were they stupid when you were 25? (dec) Sep 27 19:12:41 You mean you can be like that old and work on open source? Sep 27 19:12:42 buz: no the one befre that Sep 27 19:12:43 That's neat. Sep 27 19:12:56 is it age or do the young ones get stupider every year? Sep 27 19:13:06 yeah that one, i wonder which one it is Sep 27 19:13:12 acccording to iq stats its age Sep 27 19:13:29 but back in my days we only got drunk and stoned, didnt beat the shit out of each other Sep 27 19:13:36 Old farts. I'm just happy that it's possible to like do fun stuff later in life. Sep 27 19:13:53 you do more fun stuff later... Sep 27 19:13:58 mmazur: mostly it's your budget that shifts from time to money ;) Sep 27 19:14:19 You know that complaining about younglings is what makes old farts old farts? :) Stop! Sep 27 19:14:33 we know we're old farts... Sep 27 19:14:35 "The amount of intelligence on the planet is constant. the number of people - increases" ;) Sep 27 19:14:41 LOL Sep 27 19:15:03 we're in ur opunsorce fixin ur bugz Sep 27 19:15:12 I don't remember where I saw that, but it's a nice quote ;) Sep 27 19:15:38 you saw that just then... after you typed it Sep 27 19:16:40 Nah, I've seen it ages ago. Probably a 'fortune' quote. Sep 27 19:17:14 I saw that ages ago, but it was about the internet rather than the planet. :) Sep 27 19:17:18 google doesnt know it in that very phrasing Sep 27 19:17:54 yah ;) and it only matters who came first to get his share ;P Sep 27 19:18:01 so if you dont have children you get to keep your intelligence to yourself Sep 27 19:18:03 ? Sep 27 19:18:30 not just intelligence, but insanity, too Sep 27 19:18:37 thats ok Sep 27 19:18:46 being sane is not a necessarily good thing Sep 27 19:19:08 * SpeedEvil paints buz purple. Sep 27 19:19:11 depends on the point of view Sep 27 19:19:15 ;) Sep 27 19:19:23 fobos... Sep 27 19:19:25 mmmm Sep 27 19:19:30 * buz starts singing "purple rain" Sep 27 19:19:34 now take THAT Sep 27 19:20:23 no, it was Prince not Take That Sep 27 19:20:52 why was i half expecting tha answer ;9 Sep 27 19:21:02 hehe Sep 27 19:21:15 but you're right, take that is even more painful Sep 27 19:21:37 buz: "insanity is hereditary; you get it from your children" Sep 27 19:22:08 that explains why old people get sort of out it Sep 27 19:22:09 :D Sep 27 19:23:26 Is there anything known about an IM app for OpenMoko? Sep 27 19:23:39 the worst part about getting old it the fact that they start to butcher the old songs you know, and they think they're totally new songs... Sep 27 19:23:59 Or they think noone will know. Sep 27 19:24:16 viq: theres occasionally been talk about it Sep 27 19:24:22 but nothing coming up so far afaik Sep 27 19:24:32 buz: ok, thanks. Sep 27 19:24:52 I just can't imagine someone not making one... And one that would support jabber/xmpp at that ;) Sep 27 19:25:14 it needs to do xmpp Sep 27 19:25:19 everything else i can do without Sep 27 19:25:25 I can't imagine trying to type... Sep 27 19:25:30 in fact, i'll prefer it not to be able to talk to msn Sep 27 19:26:02 that just wastes storage and ram Sep 27 19:26:20 worse, encourages people to use it ;] Sep 27 19:26:31 lol Sep 27 19:26:42 ScaredyCat: well, there's a terminal application... ;) Sep 27 19:27:05 true... but you only use that if you really have to.... Sep 27 19:27:06 i consider msn to be an idiot filter Sep 27 19:27:19 like windows, really Sep 27 19:27:25 let's face it a bt/usb keyboard is going to be a must have Sep 27 19:27:43 yeah but one with real buttons, not that razr thingy from last night Sep 27 19:27:49 ? Sep 27 19:27:50 but also no bigger than that one Sep 27 19:28:20 Full sized 105 key full-travel keyboard the size of a credit card. Simple matter of engineering. Sep 27 19:28:21 http://www.freedominput.com/site/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=13&Itemid=30 Sep 27 19:28:35 Well, I was using a jabber client on a normal phone, so I guess I am masochistic enough to type on Neo too ;) Sep 27 19:28:38 ScaredyCat, I wouldn't call madonna's "American Pie" a butcher's job. Sep 27 19:28:39 same size, but with treo like buttons i buy any day Sep 27 19:28:59 no but dont cry for me argentina very nearly was Sep 27 19:29:00 mmazur: yes, but I would - that's the difference Sep 27 19:29:54 what about speech recognition as interface for im-ing ;) Sep 27 19:30:01 http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.cartft.com/image_db/MiniKey_Komplett.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.cartft.com/catalog/il/478&h=557&w=400&sz=42&tbnid=BdC7y_uT5CKiqM:&tbnh=133&tbnw=96&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dmini%2Busb%2Bkeyboard%26um%3D1&start=2&sa=X&oi=images&ct=image&cd=2 gimme that with bluetooth Sep 27 19:30:09 fobos, that would be tricky... Sep 27 19:30:17 like when you laugh, would it put lol or 'haha'' Sep 27 19:30:25 lol of course Sep 27 19:30:42 heck sometimes i have to restrain me from SAYING lol Sep 27 19:30:49 but what if it was a not-funny-but-im-laughing-cause-i-dont-wanna-talk lol? Sep 27 19:31:07 cb22: "lol" :P Sep 27 19:31:10 fortunately 'lol' is a perfectly fine word in dutch to express you think it is funny :) Sep 27 19:31:18 it is? Sep 27 19:31:25 lol :) Sep 27 19:31:42 you mean non-geeks wont stare at you? Sep 27 19:32:05 doesnt matter if you are a geek or not Sep 27 19:32:18 saying lol in public is like, 'hey everybody, i'm laughing' Sep 27 19:32:31 not around here it isnt Sep 27 19:32:33 But, er, a voice recognition for chat in a bus.... I don't think so. Sep 27 19:32:41 on a plane now... Sep 27 19:33:00 needs a webcam, so you can cyber in a bus Sep 27 19:33:19 wtf Sep 27 19:33:24 on second thought, better dont Sep 27 19:33:37 i have the suspicion that the wrong people would use it Sep 27 19:35:31 cb22: what about this one Sep 27 19:36:06 * cb22 looks Sep 27 19:37:13 i just google for it and this is what came out! there may be others Sep 27 19:38:08 Hmmm. Sep 27 19:38:17 ScaredyCat, just checked up on the original. One point for you :( Sep 27 19:38:57 * ScaredyCat gives mmazur a bonus point Sep 27 19:40:48 (script) openmoko-devel: "Michael 'Mickey' Lauer" Re: New openmoko build dependency: libgtk2.0-dev Sep 27 19:40:53 are there any people around working with openmoko for the greenphone? Sep 27 19:41:39 just think of the stares youll get on the train if you start with "finger, mount" Sep 27 19:42:11 buz: and continue with "fsck" :P Sep 27 19:42:52 and post to slashdot, exciplitely stating what everybody knows, namely IANAL Sep 27 19:45:46 i dont get it, why cant openmoko TELL what kind of driver they are writing for smedia? Sep 27 19:46:28 (script) openmoko-community: Harald Welte Re: ATI to provide specs (was: Re: SMedia 3362) Sep 27 19:46:59 seems odd.. Sep 27 19:49:22 oh, and another sign you're getting old... Sep 27 19:49:40 Policewomen are looking hotter? Sep 27 19:50:08 when an advert for 'gocompare.com' comes on the tv and it annoys you that thaty say - 'go compare at gocompare.com' Sep 27 19:50:39 SpeedEvil: policewomen are all hot, it's the uniform... :) Sep 27 19:51:07 tv ad always annoyed me Sep 27 19:51:10 thats no sign of age Sep 27 19:52:29 I just don't watch TV, what does that make me? ;) Sep 27 19:52:36 same as me i guess Sep 27 19:53:15 well, I'm watching 'UFO' at the moment... Sep 27 19:53:56 I don't *have* TV Sep 27 19:55:29 i don't either. i have a ten foot 800x600 projection wall. ;) Sep 27 19:56:00 pixels the size of a mini Sep 27 19:56:30 looks good, from a distance. Sep 27 19:57:01 heh Sep 27 19:57:47 juri_: so have i, but even then, i dont watch tv on it Sep 27 19:58:04 buz: as it should be. ;) Sep 27 19:58:11 besides the noise from the bloody infocus x1 gets more and more intolerable Sep 27 19:58:21 time i replace it with a 50" 15000:1 lcd Sep 27 19:58:32 mines a barcodata. Sep 27 19:58:51 at the time, the infocus was the only sub 1500EUR beamer Sep 27 19:58:55 i've gotten tired of the noise.. so i'm retrofiting my infocus 220 with an LED kit. Sep 27 19:58:58 its good, save for the noise Sep 27 19:59:15 well that wont help much with the DLP wheel will it? Sep 27 19:59:25 DLP wheel is noiser than the fans Sep 27 19:59:43 its an lcd model. Sep 27 19:59:58 ah lcd is not so noisy but colors of dlp is far better Sep 27 20:00:19 but all in all, unless you want 15feet, lcd is probably the better choice these days Sep 27 20:00:19 colourblind. :) Sep 27 20:00:28 full hd beamers are wawy overpriced Sep 27 20:01:20 now maybe you could have an array of four neo displays as beamer lcds? Sep 27 20:01:35 that would give 720p at leat Sep 27 20:02:06 720p is overrated. i'm holding out for a $1200 1080p. ;) Sep 27 20:02:59 when they dont even give you 1080p tv :( Sep 27 20:03:10 if 24" is good enough, you can get it for 500USD ;) Sep 27 20:03:33 cb22: me and buz don't watch tv. ;P Sep 27 20:03:42 if done correctly, 1080i@60 is the same as 1080p@30 Sep 27 20:04:13 in fact, i have 1920x1200 in front of me, on 15.4" ;) Sep 27 20:04:20 if done correctly, you can have 4 girlfriends in bed with you at the same time, and have none of them know :) Sep 27 20:04:36 can you tape that? Sep 27 20:04:55 scrap that, make mpeg4-avc 1080p out of it Sep 27 20:05:00 hehe Sep 27 20:05:18 set up 3 dslrs Sep 27 20:05:27 with a burst rate of 10fps Sep 27 20:05:34 and time them perfectly :) Sep 27 20:05:40 you can get 1080p cams for not THAT much Sep 27 20:05:43 <2000USD Sep 27 20:05:46 ya Sep 27 20:05:47 cheaper than 3dslr Sep 27 20:05:49 but my wat is cooler Sep 27 20:05:51 way* Sep 27 20:05:54 one thing i'll never understand is why people pay for upscaling dvd players Sep 27 20:05:59 yeah and you can get 10mpixel hehehe Sep 27 20:06:13 (then again, i'm not sure you'd want even 1080p pr0n) Sep 27 20:06:15 need a hell of a big memory card Sep 27 20:06:24 or hell, rig a 15k rpm drive up to the CF ide interface Sep 27 20:06:24 SAN Sep 27 20:06:36 some dslr come with firewire Sep 27 20:06:47 so how about that gpu, can it decode hd mpeg4? Sep 27 20:07:00 yeah, hd from 1998 Sep 27 20:07:04 mjr: core 2 duo 2ghz can decode 1080p just fine Sep 27 20:07:06 which was about 640x480 Sep 27 20:07:14 no need for gpu Sep 27 20:07:25 and it doesnt even go to 2ghz Sep 27 20:07:26 buz, gta02 doesn't have a core 2 duo Sep 27 20:07:38 gta doesnt have hd screen, either Sep 27 20:08:11 1080p is something like 6 times bigger Sep 27 20:08:18 or 9 times Sep 27 20:08:18 then 640x480 Sep 27 20:08:33 even 480p would be wasted on neo Sep 27 20:08:46 240p? Sep 27 20:08:47 on that screen, 320x240 is more than enough Sep 27 20:09:12 that0s still ~140dpi Sep 27 20:09:22 which is more than the very most of pc screens Sep 27 20:09:26 * cb22 wonders where the processing power issue comes in Sep 27 20:09:32 i have an ipaq, at 168mhz Sep 27 20:09:35 running win mobile Sep 27 20:09:38 someone said 240p is doable Sep 27 20:09:45 and it can decode mpeg4 video perfectly Sep 27 20:09:49 mpeg4 simple is relatively cheap to decode Sep 27 20:09:49 at 320x240 Sep 27 20:09:52 and rotate it Sep 27 20:09:59 then so will neo Sep 27 20:10:02 mpeg4 video @ 200kb and mp3 audio @ 64 Sep 27 20:10:13 maybe tcpmp would be a nice thing to port? Sep 27 20:10:17 iiiieeew even 128kb sounds bad Sep 27 20:10:26 mono Sep 27 20:10:38 it could play 20fps no problem Sep 27 20:10:47 you want 25fps tho Sep 27 20:11:01 * cb22 doesnt notice 15fps Sep 27 20:11:06 http://picard.exceed.hu/tcpmp/test/tcpmp.src.0.72RC1.tar.bz2 Sep 27 20:11:07 i do Sep 27 20:11:18 back when i was gaming, i could even tell teh difference between 25 and 40fps Sep 27 20:11:22 not sure if i can still do that Sep 27 20:11:29 buz, yeah i can too Sep 27 20:11:35 but only when i have fraps running :p Sep 27 20:11:40 no without Sep 27 20:11:43 lies Sep 27 20:11:55 no truly, we did a double blind test once Sep 27 20:12:13 because i would always complain about stuttering games Sep 27 20:12:15 you must've been really bored that day Sep 27 20:12:32 i think it was some lan part Sep 27 20:12:32 y Sep 27 20:12:57 i even occasionally complain about stuttering images on dvds Sep 27 20:13:20 my eyes must be overclocked or something Sep 27 20:13:26 * cb22 wonders what refresh rate buz used Sep 27 20:13:32 must've been a 120hz monitor or something Sep 27 20:13:43 at the time, 100hz non-interlaced Sep 27 20:13:44 or an lcd Sep 27 20:13:57 on a samsung crt Sep 27 20:14:31 tho i still laugh at people who play at 120fps on a 60hz lcd. or run their 2ms lcd at 60hz Sep 27 20:15:18 doesn't refresh rate ! matter for lcds? Sep 27 20:15:33 sort of Sep 27 20:15:43 they wont start flickering with too low refresh Sep 27 20:15:51 They do. Sep 27 20:15:51 but obviously you cant display frames faster than your refresh time Sep 27 20:15:54 If you go too low. Sep 27 20:16:03 depends on the model i think Sep 27 20:16:07 Interlace. Sep 27 20:16:08 some just buffer themselves Sep 27 20:16:19 well duh, wtf runs an lcd interlaced Sep 27 20:16:52 i cant deal with interlaced crts for computing. gives me headache in no time Sep 27 20:21:15 has anyone done kernel debugging via jtag? Sep 27 20:32:55 TimRiker: hey tim, whats cookin Sep 27 20:36:25 ok, for all the guys who want to boot from SDHC: SDHC is not supported by u-boot (yet?). how to boot then? just flash a kernel with mmc and ext2 (or whatever) support to the internal nand. than you can create a new bootmenu option, which lets the flashed kernel load the rootfs from the SDHC. and here's how I did it: Sep 27 20:36:28 setenv menu_5 Boot from SDHC: setenv bootargs root=/dev/mmcblk0p1 console=tty0 loglevel=8 rootdelay=5 neo1973-nand:0x00040000(u-boot),0x00004000(u-boot_env),0x00200000(kernel),0x000a0000(splash)\; nand read.e 0x32000000 kernel\; bootm 0x32000000 Sep 27 20:37:00 thomasg: can you write a wiki about that? Sep 27 20:37:05 emdete: on the way Sep 27 20:37:19 will put it into the boot from sd article Sep 27 20:37:25 :) great. i will try that but later... Sep 27 20:44:00 thomasg: I just added a kernel patch that should let us boot a new kernel right from an existing kernel (kexec). That's another way to do it. Sep 27 20:46:50 mwester: no bad idea, but for that you'd have to boot the internal system first (it's ok for testing purposes), woudln't you? Sep 27 20:50:08 Yes, but you don't even need to start init - you can boot up to a script that just loads the modules for the filesystem necessary to find the new kernel, mount /proc and sysfs, then kexec load and boot the new kernel. Sep 27 20:51:41 mwester: you just described altboot :-) Sep 27 20:52:43 :) We need CoreDump|afk to port it. Sep 27 21:11:48 (script) openmoko-community: Harald Welte Re: Message duplicates (was: Changes between GTA1 and GTA2?) Sep 27 21:48:34 hia, is there anybody there ? Sep 27 21:48:53 nope. Sep 27 21:48:56 :) Sep 27 21:49:04 hey juri Sep 27 21:49:21 * juri_ toddles homeward. Sep 27 21:49:40 "toddles"? Sep 27 21:49:40 sunix: What's up? Sep 27 21:49:44 i'm want to start (trying) to do some dev on openmoko ... folowing the wiki : http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Application_Development_Crash_Course and .... Sep 27 21:50:22 Change your BBFILE_COLLECTIONS line to look like this: BBFILE_COLLECTIONS = "upstream local overlay" Sep 27 21:50:22 -> does't have that variable in the file Sep 27 21:50:42 mwester: like a toddler? :) Sep 27 21:50:59 That's a slooooww way to get home... Sep 27 21:51:17 abraxa_: :) Sep 27 21:54:25 sunix: The wiki is slightly outdated because OpenMoko no longer uses an OE overlay, so it no longer uses BBFILE_COLLECTIONS either, I assume Sep 27 21:54:32 sunix: Just go ahead and add the variable Sep 27 21:54:42 abraxa_: i see Sep 27 21:55:18 abraxa_: really ... Sep 27 21:55:46 abraxa_: do you think its a good start to follow that wiki ? Sep 27 21:56:41 sunix: That depends on what you want to do Sep 27 21:57:22 i want to try to do some stuff on the media player Sep 27 21:57:41 Ah Sep 27 21:57:42 abraxa_: or see what i can do :p Sep 27 21:57:51 In that case you don't need OE Sep 27 21:58:28 Just compiling & installing gsmd, libmokoui2 and friends to a local sandbox is sufficient Sep 27 21:58:43 abraxa_: in fact i really want to make it work and because it may only involve ui stuff i though it would be easy to start to have a look to that Sep 27 21:58:46 ie. ./configure --prefix=/home/user/openmoko/sandbox Sep 27 21:59:18 ok Sep 27 21:59:19 What do you mean - make it work? Sep 27 22:00:03 don't know ... i have a short cut with my last image of openmoko .. and it doesn't do anything :) Sep 27 22:00:53 That's most likely because /root/playlists hasn't been created Sep 27 22:01:00 (that bug got fixed already) Sep 27 22:01:08 mh Sep 27 22:02:00 If that's not the problem then running openmoko-mediaplayer from the console should give more hints Sep 27 22:02:18 ok give me a try :) Sep 27 22:03:21 ok i have a segfault Sep 27 22:04:17 What does it say on the console? Sep 27 22:04:56 lots of warnings : "Useless empty GtkIconSource" Sep 27 22:05:08 gtk-warning Sep 27 22:05:19 and then Sep 27 22:05:25 Segmentation fault Sep 27 22:06:19 Ah Sep 27 22:06:35 In that case, all OpenMoko apps should segfault because it's a bug in libmokoui2 Sep 27 22:06:52 mh Sep 27 22:07:03 Either up- or downgrading libmokoui2 helps as the error has been fixed in SVN Sep 27 22:08:15 ok ... i've used mokomakefile to build everything Sep 27 22:08:52 this morning Sep 27 22:09:54 :) im in openmoko/trunk/src/target/OM-2007.2/applications/openmoko-mediaplayer2 ... that sounds great :D Sep 27 22:11:52 lots of source code reading down the track Sep 27 22:13:16 hehe Sep 27 22:13:33 Lemme know if you see anything I could improve, I'm always open to suggestions Sep 27 22:14:12 :) are you a contributor or ... ? Sep 27 22:14:27 I wrote it ;3 Sep 27 22:14:33 :D great Sep 27 22:15:02 nice to meet you :) Sep 27 22:17:16 hehe same Sep 27 22:17:40 are you using an ide to write software ? Sep 27 22:18:55 I'm using kdevelop, though that really is a personal choice :) Sep 27 22:20:27 openmoko: 03rwhitby * r162 10mokomakefile/trunk/Makefile: Remove patches from the clobber target, in case people have local patchsets. Sep 27 22:22:08 (script) openmoko-community: "Michael 'Mickey' Lauer" Re: Bricked Neo Sep 27 22:22:09 :) i know, it's been a while i have not written software in C language, i used to use Anjuta ... don't know how good it is compare to kdevelop, i'm going to have a look on the net Sep 27 22:25:19 openmoko: 03rwhitby * r163 10mokomakefile/trunk/Makefile: Added a clean target. Sep 27 22:29:30 zecke: Did you ever run into customs with your Neo? Sep 27 22:30:08 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Mokostat]] [[FreeBSD]] [[Booting_from_SD]] [[User:Alessandro]] Sep 27 22:30:23 abraxa_: what kind of customs? like when UPS is shipping? Sep 27 22:30:53 openmoko: 03rwhitby * r164 10mokomakefile/trunk/Makefile: Clean the tools and feed too. Sep 27 22:31:08 zecke: Well, I'm returning from the US on monday and wonder what'll happen if customs see the Neo and claim I bought it in the US (when I didn't) Sep 27 22:31:40 abraxa_: what makes your neo more special than your notebook? Sep 27 22:31:51 shinier? Sep 27 22:32:00 zecke: It's not obviously used :) Sep 27 22:32:02 * rwhitby will be in Santa Clara, Chicago and maybe Austin next week - was there anyone in those cities who said they were going to buy me a beer? Sep 27 22:32:12 lol rwhitby Sep 27 22:33:10 * rwhitby greps old logs for "buy you a beer" ... Sep 27 22:35:16 abraxa_: does the customs bother anybody that are traveling with their cell phones ? Sep 27 22:36:46 sunix: I wouldn't assume so; I'm just wondering because the last thing I need is customs demanding a fee of XX Euro for importing an electronic device, merely because I have no proof of purchase Sep 27 22:37:28 hmm - rtyler in SF - that's close. Sep 27 22:37:48 and quicksand too. Sep 27 22:39:01 rwhitby: Getting drunk in SF might not be the best idea :) Sep 27 22:39:42 abraxa_: i think it should be ok :) unless your have 50 neo in your bag :) Sep 27 22:40:03 abraxa_: (or pockets) Sep 27 22:40:04 sunix: I hope so, too Sep 27 22:40:28 abraxa_: I've been drunk in SF before. Sep 27 22:40:38 rwhitby: Story time? Sep 27 22:40:40 anyone from France there ? Sep 27 22:40:44 (worked for a year in Santa Clara. no stories) Sep 27 22:40:57 Ah boo =( Sep 27 22:41:19 Ah boo ? Sep 27 22:41:32 Yeah, I wanted to hear stories Sep 27 22:41:42 :D Sep 27 22:46:28 (script) openmoko-community: Harald Welte Re: FM Radio Sep 27 23:38:44 Hmm, I wonder how hard it would be to fix OpenTTD's memory alignment issues... it can be quite slow on ARM as it is... Sep 27 23:43:33 ouch Sep 27 23:43:45 i just noticed the new iphone firmware is out Sep 27 23:43:56 and my brother is buying 2x in the US Sep 27 23:44:06 cause i said i could unlock 'em Sep 27 23:44:10 he's gonna be pissed... Sep 27 23:44:39 I guess it won't take long until the new firmware is unlocked? Sep 27 23:44:48 No way of knowing. Sep 27 23:44:58 There is no fundamental reason for there to be holes. Sep 27 23:45:19 Done right - especially with minor hardware mods - it could be damn near uncrackable. Sep 27 23:45:45 i doubt they've done any hardware mods yet... Sep 27 23:45:48 but why Sep 27 23:45:56 apple are shooting themselves in the foot Sep 27 23:46:01 *curses at+t* Sep 27 23:46:44 Apple are not. Sep 27 23:46:55 Apple are getting fucking insane kickbacks from the networks. Sep 27 23:47:06 that's true Sep 27 23:47:11 (at least assuming the UK is a similar model) Sep 27 23:47:17 but i was referring more to a 'people liking them' Sep 27 23:47:31 Talking of 40% of revenue - not profits - from the contract going to apple Sep 27 23:47:31 infact, everything gets blamed on the network Sep 27 23:47:53 That's an enormously powerful reason for apple to want to lock them. Sep 27 23:48:10 one reason i'm buying a neo... Sep 27 23:49:57 Anyone going to Ohio Linux Fest? Sep 27 23:50:33 Not unless it's very misleadingly named :) Sep 27 23:50:47 hehe Sep 27 23:57:20 morning all Sep 27 23:59:52 how does the unlock work exactly? Sep 28 00:01:25 it uses some buffer overrun to execute some code that does the actual unlocking I believe... Sep 28 00:07:13 i wonder if the neo will sell well with contracts, because there is no way for providers to lock them... Sep 28 00:07:35 krazy glue Sep 28 00:07:43 which renders it a quite unattractive device for them Sep 28 00:08:06 why would the providers need to lock the phones if the customer is bound by the contract? Sep 28 00:08:36 there's other stuff too that operators probably won't like, such as no way to make a killing charging extra for songs to be able to use as ringtones Sep 28 00:09:16 Vegar, they'd generally want one to use the phone in their network too, though presumably they could make a contract whose base cost is enough even without usage Sep 28 00:09:51 right Sep 28 00:10:37 well locks exist because some contracts even out when the customer actually uses their services Sep 28 00:10:51 though that may still be unflattering to consumers blinded by cheap-seeming contracts that actually cost a killing Sep 28 00:10:57 yeah Sep 28 00:34:57 mailing list way-back-machine? Sep 28 00:56:25 hello, is http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/OpenMoko_under_QEMU supposed to work? i followed the steps but finally qemu hangs (causing 100% cpu load) as in: http://pastebin.ca/717947 - any hints? Sep 28 00:57:22 moofoo: I've had timeout problems with that recently too Sep 28 00:57:38 moofoo: after some tried it ended up working (probably by luck) Sep 28 00:57:43 s/tried/tries/ Sep 28 00:57:43 cesarb meant: moofoo: after some tries it ended up working (probably by luck) Sep 28 00:58:16 so some race condition? Sep 28 00:59:10 moofoo: dunno (btw, I use mokomakefile's build-qemu and flash-neo-local targets instead of doing it by hand) Sep 28 00:59:29 moofoo: to me it looked more like it was just being too slow for some reason Sep 28 00:59:52 moofoo: that's a configurable timeout before the shell kills the emulator (it's running the emulator to flash the emulator image...) Sep 28 01:00:21 you have some urls for this mokomakefiles build-qemu? Sep 28 01:00:49 hm yeah i had it go a bit further once but then again the old spot did not make it hold so long.. Sep 28 01:00:53 so its really strange Sep 28 01:02:11 moofoo: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/MokoMakefile Sep 28 01:03:17 anyone here in the US? I am shopping for a new cellular plan and provider and want to choose one that will play nice with devices moko will run on, particularly the neo1973 Sep 28 01:03:21 rwhitby: cool, the clean target is something I did by hand several times already (now how come I didn't think of making a target of it?) Sep 28 01:04:45 So far it looks like cingular and tmobile are the only proper SIM providers Sep 28 01:04:56 thats about it for the us Sep 28 01:05:37 Bullocks. Sep 28 01:05:40 when i was there for a month, cingular seemed better Sep 28 01:06:14 Hah! I was the other way around, I was on a midgrade prepay plan in Germany (Free & Easy ) and I loved it! Now I'm with cingular now and I'm not thrilled. Sep 28 01:06:28 * cesarb notices a Xglamo in the commits mailing list... Sep 28 01:06:37 I talked to TMobile today, I'm interested in their UMA / Hotspot plans Sep 28 01:07:21 Erk Tmobile @ home ~ hotspot Sep 28 01:07:34 I'm interested in that because I can leech wifi almost everywhere. Sep 28 01:09:50 Are there any UMA phones that moko will run on right now?? Sep 28 01:10:17 More importantly, where else should I be looking for this info? Sep 28 01:10:40 http://lwn.net/Articles/250358/ <- cool, does that run on the neo already? Sep 28 01:12:40 it can be build without kde dependencies, so I guess it should be possible... Sep 28 01:12:54 although you still would need qt4... Sep 28 01:19:25 nrgh. UMA makes sense, it should cost the carriers LESS to have that Sep 28 01:19:58 yet the cheapest I can get for my wife and I is $100 a month, that is going to cut into my "hacking" cash to buy the neo Sep 28 01:28:16 Jon_yoosic: UMA is new. New things are more expensive. Sep 28 01:29:05 Jon_yoosic: besides, the price (not the cost) is determined by how much people want/are able to pay, and UMA is a nice shiny new thing (not to mention you can use it to make cell phones work within elevators...) Sep 28 01:30:28 yea Sep 28 01:30:43 Cincinnati Bell and Tmobile are the only to us providers Sep 28 01:31:49 Thing is I earn my living as a software developer in the medical industry, one of the things that has slowed good mobile device development is that you can't get cellular reception in most hospitals. However they have gotten to the point where wifi is ubiquitous. Thus UMA makes sense to me both at home and at work. Sep 28 01:31:54 *two US providers Sep 28 01:32:41 Jon_yoosic: I've had to swap phones with my relatives to get good reception in a hospital before Sep 28 01:33:26 What that means is that something like OpenMoko on a good phone combined with UMA will help my team and I integrate our medical applications into a phone and acess their data over wifi while still enabling the doctors to carry only one device that will make calls anywhere. Sep 28 01:33:47 Jon_yoosic: a cell repeater could also fix the problem... (perhaps even two cell antennas connected by a piece of the correct kind of wire, perhaps with an amplified in the middle) Sep 28 01:34:05 Jon_yoosic: the only problem would be having to pull the specific cable, instead of "generic" Cat5 Sep 28 01:34:54 Jon_yoosic: unfortunately, from what I've heard UMA needs specific help from the modem, which I don't think the neo will have (well, perhaps with a firmware upgrade in the modem... yeah, right.) Sep 28 01:35:40 No it does not. The routers that are labled for UMA simply do packet shaping to give priority to UMA/VoIP signals Sep 28 01:36:49 The thing with repeaters is that they are specialty hardware that only serves one device. WiFi is generic and serves everything, from PDAs to workstations to tablets to non-critical monitoring devices. It also just takes a competent network engineer to design a wifi plan, when you get to repeaters you have to step up a few levels to get it done right. Sep 28 01:37:43 Jon_yoosic: by modem I meant the neo GSM chipset, not the wifi router Sep 28 01:38:26 ah yea Sep 28 01:38:26 Jon_yoosic: well, and slapping access points randomly around already gives you 90% coverage ;-) Sep 28 01:38:55 UMA is a part of the GSM standard (not sure how exactly) so yes you are right it would take some fiddling with GSM chip Sep 28 01:39:04 * cesarb has just today delicately placed a generic access point in an arbitrarily chosen desk at work Sep 28 01:39:55 Jon_yoosic: there are at least two things which would need the modem's help - authentication and roaming Sep 28 01:40:23 Jon_yoosic: authentication because it's the modem which "owns" the SIM (it's even physically connected directly to it) Sep 28 01:40:31 Jon_yoosic: roaming for obvious reasons Sep 28 01:40:48 cesarb: wifi or BT access point? Sep 28 01:42:27 rwhityby: wifi Sep 28 01:42:37 rwhitby: wifi Sep 28 01:44:25 * cesarb has also found out today that, annoyingly, Windows XP does _not_ support WPA2 -- meaning I had to change the AP's config, fiddle again with knetworkmanager to be sure it was working correctly, and THEN make the Windows laptop work. Urgh. Sep 28 01:45:15 But then, putting Windows XP on a macbook pro is, as the designer guys there would agree with me, bad taste. Sep 28 01:45:45 man, and here I thought you were cool. Sep 28 01:45:52 Why are you putting XP on it? Sep 28 01:45:56 Jon_yoosic: the laptop isn't mine ;-) Sep 28 01:46:23 Are you getting paid to put XP on an otherwise good macbook pro? Sep 28 01:47:15 Jon_yoosic: no, it's the laptop's owner who did it ;-) (his workflow is too tied to windows, and he wants to gradually transition to macos... he's started by stopping using outlook and moving to thunderbird, for instance) Sep 28 01:47:32 Ah I see. Sep 28 01:48:02 Has he seen parallels? My coworker uses it on his Mac and its amazing, XP windows show up right with Mac windows Sep 28 01:48:12 There is no switching, its all in one place. Sep 28 01:48:38 Jon_yoosic: dunno, it's more of the designer guys who are suggesting things to him... I had never used macosx before Sep 28 01:49:40 Jon_yoosic: (and found it quite easy to use - it's very similar to kde, so things are where you'd expect, after you manage to deal with the openstep-like bar at the bottom) Sep 28 01:50:46 In fact, the only OS which tends to annoy me is Windows, for some reason... Had to configure wireless in another Win laptop (this time Vista), and UGH Sep 28 01:50:54 It's hard to find anything Sep 28 01:51:13 You have to click in dozens of places until you find where in the world the network configuration went Sep 28 01:51:28 And it's COMPLETELY different from the Windows XP I had just configured moments before! Sep 28 01:52:41 With kubuntu I only had to disable/enable the wireless several times until it managed to work (changing the AP's settings while it's connected seems to confuse it a bit), and deal with knetworkmanager crashing (twice) Sep 28 01:53:22 Yea I switchted to Ubuntu at home 4 months ago and at work on my desk about 2 months ago. I don't know how I lived without the command line. Sep 28 01:53:55 I'm down to loading windows in a VM about once every 2 days now and I'm not missing it at all. Sep 28 02:01:36 * cesarb suddenly has a flash of inspiration and finds out what's annoyed him with Vista: the interface is overcluttered. All these whizzy visual effects and multicolored menu backgrounds distract you from actually finding what you want. Sep 28 02:05:29 its vista. JUST STOP USING IT. Sep 28 02:09:06 juri_: well, it's not mine - I just had to configure wireless on it Sep 28 02:09:53 juri_: mine uses kubuntu (with unallocated space to put XP later if needed - let's see how long can I postpone that ;-) ) Sep 28 02:12:44 juri_: hey, sooner or later someone will have to make neo sync/flash applications for vista ;-) Sep 28 02:12:46 * cesarb runs Sep 28 02:13:28 i see you've volunteered. :) Sep 28 02:13:34 congratulations. :) Sep 28 02:14:46 I like Windows Mobile for one reason Sep 28 02:15:15 The contact lookup. I like it to the point that I'm going to have a hard time giving up my MPX220 if I can't get another phone with it Sep 28 02:15:29 Have you used it? Sep 28 02:16:27 juri_: in fact, doesn't libusb and Qt already run on windows? shouldn't be TOO hard to make a portable works-everywhere-Qt-has-been-ported-to sync/flash application... Sep 28 02:16:38 I'm not keen on QT Sep 28 02:16:47 Jon_yoosic: no, the only smartphone OS I've used (and not on a smartphone) is Palm's Sep 28 02:17:33 The way it works is that you just hit the keypad and it does partial matching. For example pressing "52" matches KAthleen JAmes JAck etc Sep 28 02:18:41 how does 52 relate to those? Sep 28 02:18:42 It is a LOT faster than dorking around with a contacts list Sep 28 02:19:04 5 ~ JKL 2 ~ ABC Sep 28 02:19:20 ah, right. Sep 28 02:19:37 so to find your info I would just have to hit 548 which would match JIT and you'd be in the list Sep 28 02:19:53 then you're going to love gutsy when it comes out ;) Sep 28 02:19:55 its fast and with most of my regular contacts I know 3-4 digits that bring up only that person Sep 28 02:20:02 How so? Sep 28 02:20:02 * mwester types "jit" on his treo. Sep 28 02:20:14 * mwester doesn't have to memorize numbers that way. Sep 28 02:20:18 if you're curious, get the latest beta livecd, start it up and hit alt-f Sep 28 02:20:21 alt-f3 Sep 28 02:20:28 * Jon_yoosic suddenly realizes that he has been living in the stone age, before the days of QWERT Sep 28 02:20:33 :p Sep 28 02:20:37 :D Sep 28 02:21:18 and QWERT was the predecssor to QWERTY. They hadn't invented vowels yet. Sep 28 02:21:29 I'll give you a hint, it doesn't just search contacts :P Sep 28 02:21:40 i hope openmoko wont force me to type qwerty Sep 28 02:21:44 that would be awefully archaic Sep 28 02:21:51 it searches everything you might want. Sep 28 02:22:07 * mwester is hoping someone will come up with DVORAK Sep 28 02:22:21 anyway, off to bed Sep 28 02:22:26 mwester It shouldnt be that hard to do a new key layout Sep 28 02:23:02 I'm still learning OpenMoko, but on most touchscreen devices you would just need to change the image overlay for the keyboard then tweak what is essentially an image map to match the layout Sep 28 02:23:52 Jon_yoosic: wouldn't surprise me if there were no image overlay, and the whole keyboard layout were programatically created Sep 28 02:24:05 hmm Sep 28 02:24:13 * Jon_yoosic greps the hell out of /src Sep 28 02:24:31 * cesarb thinks normal alphabetic keyboards are not the best thing for the neo - the keys end up too small, making it slower to type Sep 28 02:24:44 I prefer having at least a keypad Sep 28 02:25:05 * cesarb wants a full-screen keyboard where you have to type two keys for each character - but can type them FAST since they will be hueg Sep 28 02:25:44 Jon_yoosic: perhaps it's matchbox-keyboard-inputmethod? Sep 28 02:26:46 "It aims to 'just work' supporting localised, easy to write XML layout configuration files." Sep 28 02:27:27 well there ya go Sep 28 02:27:48 now, I don't know if that's the "new" or the "old" keyboard... Sep 28 02:28:29 perhaps the "old" one was openmoko-keyboard Sep 28 02:28:56 Actually I just bought a bluetooth keyboard for my Neo - $14 Sep 28 02:29:14 mwester: I see a keyboard-dvorak.xml Sep 28 02:29:44 mwester: cool, did you also buy some guitar straps to hang it over your shoulder while typing? ;-) Sep 28 02:29:48 Cool! (It's been so many years that I doubt I could actually type on it anymore, to tell the truth) Sep 28 02:30:57 hehe! I'm gonna duct-tape the Neo to the top of it, back behind the function keys. Should make things much easier. Sep 28 02:32:12 * mwester hopes nobody thinks he'd really duct tape a neo to a keyboard. Velcro works much better. Sep 28 02:39:42 G'day Sep 28 02:41:10 hi Sep 28 02:42:17 hi Sep 28 02:45:40 was los? Sep 28 02:45:45 mwester: i second the motion [for dvorak support] Sep 28 02:47:20 mwester: when i switched to dvorak i did it cold turkey, i was afraid if i went back and forth i'd wind up unable to type in either forever :) Sep 28 02:47:55 and switched from pico to vim at the same time, so i didnt have old key command associations Sep 28 02:54:31 * mwester is tired of battling patches, so he goes to flash a new uboot... Sep 28 02:55:46 Well, that was anti-climactic. Sep 28 02:56:01 I didn't even lose my environment variables. Sep 28 02:56:54 But at least now I don't have to "nand erase rootfs" all the time. Sep 28 02:58:04 mwester: So, I should give it a go? Sep 28 02:58:41 Only if you have a debug board. Sep 28 02:58:48 Nope. Sep 28 02:59:18 or if you feel lucky Sep 28 02:59:47 I at least know that I can borrow a debug board Sep 28 02:59:49 Good luck's going to have to visit me sooner or later. Why not this time? **** ENDING LOGGING AT Fri Sep 28 02:59:56 2007