**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Tue Oct 09 02:59:56 2007 Oct 09 03:00:04 correct. I use an NSLU2 connected to the laptop to flash the neo :-) Oct 09 03:00:57 i really didn't want to right a windows dfu-util from scratch but its looking like that is the only way Oct 09 03:13:56 Writchie: you could also rig up a linux live cd Oct 09 03:15:37 you can just boot, for example, the fedora 7 live cd and flash from that. Oct 09 03:17:42 or probably even a linux vm Oct 09 04:52:27 finding a mobile phone/pda with 3G HSDPA and can play avi/mp3 with a decent screen etc is proving painful O2 Flame is pretty close but has no HSDPA and it sux at playing media (even though it has a huge 3.6" LCD) Oct 09 04:53:05 HTC are bringing out something later this year (Dec 2007) thats looks interesting Oct 09 04:53:45 life is much easier if you just decide to lag the tech by 5 years. ;) Oct 09 04:57:00 Its funny i can get phones that have everything tech wise but they all have tiny screens and wont play media well Oct 09 04:57:32 then you get a phone with a big screen and all the 3G love vannishes Oct 09 05:00:35 gmaxwell: heh, Im a gadget geek so 6 months is a life time Oct 09 05:03:23 Hmm HTC Athena looks pretty, due out later this year http://www.itechnews.net/2007/01/28/t-mobile-ameohtc-athena-price-announced/ Oct 09 05:15:22 what would be cool is a Linux mobile with a 3.6" LCD 720x480 with 3G that has good media support because there is fsk all out there right now Oct 09 05:16:05 linux_galore: I wonder what the HDX8 will look like Oct 09 05:16:10 * doc|home nods nods nods Oct 09 05:16:48 what size screen does the phone which we do not mention here have? Oct 09 05:17:13 Symbian and Microsoft Mobile both seriously suck on the emdia side and what aps they do have are next to useless Oct 09 05:17:38 doc|home: thats 3.5" Oct 09 05:18:03 doc|home: but has the same sucky media problems of all the others and no 3G let alone HSDPA Oct 09 05:18:08 yeah Oct 09 05:18:22 I wouldn't touch one of those with a ten foot pole Oct 09 05:18:24 Bricked phones can't play media too well. ;) Oct 09 05:18:29 heh Oct 09 05:18:53 also the screen isnt very good resolution to play media let alone read web pages Oct 09 05:18:55 a 3.5inch screen with the neo's dpi would be nice :) Oct 09 05:19:20 It would need to be matched with a much beefier cpu or hardware codec support. :( Oct 09 05:19:51 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/HXD8 Oct 09 05:19:54 not too good :/ Oct 09 05:20:04 "The HXD8 features a 480x272 pixel LCD (which is a widescreen (16:9) ratio) with PWM-controlled backlight" Oct 09 05:20:10 you can get a good Linux portable media player with a decent screen and resolution from COWON called the A2 Oct 09 05:20:38 cowon++ Oct 09 05:20:38 plays just about everything Oct 09 05:20:42 does it have wifi? :) Oct 09 05:21:39 hmmm, has the same resolution as the HXD8 Oct 09 05:21:40 the Atchos 604 has wifi but it has very poor media player abilities Oct 09 05:21:52 Sadly the COWON does not decode theora. (even though it decodes lots of other stuff) Oct 09 05:22:00 480 x 272 pixels, 16M color 4 inch Wide TFT-LCD presents overall operation status at your fingertip, and high-quality images anywhere, anytime. Oct 09 05:22:09 cowon doesn't? the X5 by them does Oct 09 05:22:18 * cb22 is more of a resolution person then a size person Oct 09 05:22:22 same Oct 09 05:22:30 doc|home, hm. It *didn't* .. perhaps it does now. That would be good news that I was unaware of.... Oct 09 05:22:38 I want it as much for web browsing in the cafe as much as anything Oct 09 05:22:52 yeah, and 480x640 really rocks Oct 09 05:23:07 my ipaq is 2.8' and 240x320 Oct 09 05:23:13 gonna be fun using the neo :) Oct 09 05:23:18 4 times the res Oct 09 05:23:34 its annoying being a video person and you cant find a mobile and pmp all in one and its hard finding one that works well thats seperate too Oct 09 05:23:34 I think the screen on my phase 1 looks ver nice. Oct 09 05:24:04 linux_galore, back to what I said about just lagging 5 years... Oct 09 05:24:06 yeah, 640x480 is the bottom line for me Oct 09 05:24:11 gmaxwell, does it feel 'ghosty' Oct 09 05:24:25 like if i watch videos on my psp with high motion scenes, they ghost :/ Oct 09 05:24:42 Hm. lemme see Oct 09 05:24:44 linux_galore: the HXD8 will disappoint then :/ Oct 09 05:24:50 480x272 Oct 09 05:24:53 Ive watched stuff on the PSP the screen looks a bit faded to me Oct 09 05:25:29 yeah, like after a really quick high motion scene, the area that used to be by the object that moved is blackish Oct 09 05:25:35 ie, black trails Oct 09 05:25:36 shame no one has got a Linux firmware update for the PSP Oct 09 05:25:47 I don't think the neo is ghosty.. actually my initial impression of the screen I think was by how sharp the scrolling kernel boot text looked. Oct 09 05:26:11 the neo has a very good screen, just a bit small Oct 09 05:26:31 nice Oct 09 05:26:52 I give the OM guys another year, with luck they kick out something nice Oct 09 05:27:00 think the gta02 will handle quake3? Oct 09 05:27:03 I'm nearsighted as heck so I like to use it about 5" away. ;) so the size is fine.. ;) Oct 09 05:27:56 GTA02 is sweet but about 2 years behind on the mobile tech side Oct 09 05:28:26 not really, compared to some Win Mobile phones atleast Oct 09 05:28:58 I can get unlocked sub $200 mobiles here in Australia now with HSDPA and 3G Oct 09 05:29:02 linux_galore, it's utterly bleeding edge from my perspective: I've been using a nokia 3595 (a totally unsmart phone). :0 Oct 09 05:30:03 cb22: I notice allot of the forums still comment about the stability problems with Windows Mobile Oct 09 05:30:25 ie especially with 3rd part media apps Oct 09 05:30:38 linux_galore, it's a feature.. when you want to avoid calls you can later tell people your phone had silently crashed. :) Oct 09 05:30:48 heh Oct 09 05:31:18 you can actually get a HTC Atom to play avi files but people complain the phones crash Oct 09 05:32:13 I can understand why people like the fruit logo phones Oct 09 05:32:43 ignoring the fact they dont actually do much Oct 09 05:33:06 But they're shiny! ;) Oct 09 05:33:58 the GTA02 will have a lot of internal flash.. boggle. Oct 09 05:34:19 Not enough for media storage though.. so .. are we to fill that with applications? :) Oct 09 05:34:40 Marketing Guy "Ok I want a phone with lots of eye candy, animated icons and sliders, then remove all the buttons and to save money cripple everything so it can barely do anything other than sms" Oct 09 05:35:29 Well there is merit in doing a few things and doing them well. Oct 09 05:35:39 O2 phones now come with 1G and 2G of built in storage Oct 09 05:36:56 yeah but the big question is will the GTA02 make calls heh Oct 09 05:37:12 Hey, I made a dozen calls from my GTA01 today. Oct 09 05:37:38 gmaxwell: got a sore throat huh from shouting across town Oct 09 05:37:48 * linux_galore ducks Oct 09 05:37:58 I er.. had to ssh into the phone and kick a bunch of stuff around some.. but I did make and recieve calls with it. Oct 09 05:38:00 :) Oct 09 05:38:13 and I just recieved it. Oct 09 05:39:05 Im not sure there is even a 3G chipset with a Linux driver to be honest Oct 09 05:39:09 Once I figure out how the system fits togeather I'll fix the bugs myself. ;) well.. and after I build the OE crosscompiler stuff again. Oct 09 05:39:30 Ah, you're an ausie sucker. ;) Oct 09 05:40:58 next year should be interesting, whole load of full screen phones hit the market, first up is the LG VX10000 Oct 09 05:41:15 better knows as the LG VX10K\ Oct 09 05:41:59 looks like the fruit phone but has a QWERTY keyboard Oct 09 05:43:08 then you have the... bugger it, lets make a better fruit phone that thinner and smaller called the Meizu M8 Oct 09 05:43:50 linux_galore, I dunno how anything could be as thin or thinner than the fruit phone and have a replacable battery... Oct 09 05:44:07 gmaxwell: Meizu have done it Oct 09 05:44:36 ah Oct 09 05:44:55 linux_galore, enough fruity talk. Do you have a neo? Oct 09 05:45:09 gmaxwell: lots of pics on the web, there is also a 16GB version Oct 09 05:45:19 gmaxwell: when it works I will Oct 09 05:45:50 hehe Then this must be awfully boring for you, since there are are already a number of other working phones out there... ;) Oct 09 05:46:10 as i said Im waiting for the OM guys to make a decent working unit Oct 09 05:46:42 gmaxwell: not really I will purchase a phones until OM gets of the ground Oct 09 05:46:48 except for the fact that it didn't actually work the qtopia image seemed very close to production ready. Oct 09 05:47:11 I think my only issue was that it didn't correctly control the mixer.. I'll have to reinstall it and manually throb the mixer and see if that fixes it. Oct 09 05:47:18 gmaxwell: yeah, the qtopia image video are making me drool Oct 09 05:47:47 Qtopia is certantly pretty.. but it felt very constrained... kinda.. just a phone. :) Oct 09 05:48:22 It's also somewhat obnoxious that we now have two orthorgonal software platforms to develop apps for... :( Oct 09 05:48:25 gmaxwell: qtopia is more mature and has had a fair bit of money thrown at it, Philips use it on their IP wireless phones Oct 09 05:49:30 gmaxwell: three if you add Poko Oct 09 05:49:52 Oh I know. At lest with only 10 minutes of fooling with it the qtopia image felt like it was only a dozen man hours or so of being able to toss it to my mother and say "enjoy your new phone" Oct 09 05:51:00 Though the openmoko image is also not too far off, it just needs to actually work right. ... or at least, work right without having to kick things around from the CLI constantly. ;) Oct 09 05:51:47 sorry not poko I mean poky Oct 09 05:54:02 www.pokylinux.org Oct 09 05:54:15 GTK based but looks a bit QT'sh Oct 09 05:54:47 oh boy. hehe Oct 09 05:55:12 go down a bit on that page and there are screen shots Oct 09 05:55:46 there is a video on youtube too Oct 09 05:57:51 now we just need to port Maemo and everyones head will explode Oct 09 05:58:18 I will stab you. Oct 09 05:58:20 stab sta Oct 09 05:58:21 b Oct 09 05:59:09 heh Oct 09 06:04:52 Poko 3.0 has a PIM suite http://www.pimlico-project.org/ Oct 09 06:06:20 hi there. Oct 09 06:06:28 * linux_galore wavea Oct 09 06:06:59 I final successed make qemu-flash-local with a while loop:) Oct 09 06:07:13 hah! Oct 09 06:07:25 then make run-qemu boot into openmoko, wowo, rocks Oct 09 06:08:08 Now, I found that there is no any applet in the top panel, where is bluez/clock and so on? Oct 09 06:08:55 Pengu1n, ... boot in while loop. Oct 09 06:09:38 I'm only half kidding.. at least on my GTA01 the tray is unreliable. Removing the battery monitor from the start up fixed it however. Oct 09 06:11:02 How to remove it? Oct 09 06:11:43 gmaxwell: have been working on mixer stuff today Oct 09 06:12:24 I spent more than tow weeks to build and boot the qemu :( Oct 09 06:14:05 gmaxwell: I got those cool applet after reboot....:) Oct 09 06:14:41 Pengu1n, I told you.. while loop. ;) Oct 09 06:14:51 Pengu1n, to make it more reliable remove the battery option from the command line in /etc/matchbox/session Oct 09 06:15:20 ljp, where working is defined as poking at and observing all the interesting ways it can fail to do the right thing.. sure. Oct 09 06:15:51 rootfs has be flashed into a jffs2 image, I could i change the session file? Oct 09 06:16:17 if you're booted.. ssh into it if networking works for you.. or start the terminal app and edit that way. ;) Oct 09 06:16:38 thx. Oct 09 06:29:18 gmaxwell: no. I mean developing qtopia mixer stuff Oct 09 06:37:37 vallor: no, skype is evil anyways, and yes, google for jalimo Oct 09 06:38:23 (answering only something like 7 hours late) Oct 09 06:51:34 I noticed that libX11 is mentioned in the dependency tree, does that mean there's a full fledged x server running on the phone? Oct 09 06:52:55 yes Oct 09 06:52:55 yes Oct 09 06:53:15 Yessss!!! ;) Oct 09 06:53:19 nooo! Oct 09 06:53:20 lol Oct 09 06:53:44 i suppose i should do a bit more research before bothering you guys, but, is it Xorg? or something else? Oct 09 06:54:01 xorg, using kdrive Oct 09 06:57:02 cool, so is it likely that i could run X apps remotely? (like ssh into a box at home and run some/a gtk+ app(s)? although i suppose the screen size could be limiting) Oct 09 06:58:03 ergh, i'm sounding stupid huh... Oct 09 06:58:05 * Ademan googles Oct 09 06:58:48 is it a good idea to add a wiki page where ppl can sell/buy second hand GTA01's ? Oct 09 06:58:51 Ademan: Yup, people do it all the time for debugging purposes Oct 09 06:59:24 Bart_: Sure, why not? Oct 09 06:59:26 Ademan: SSHing into the Neo, I mean... but you can sure SSH out from the Neo as well Oct 09 06:59:49 abraxa__: yeah i was talking about ssh-ing out, i was wondering since i figure KDrive doesn't support every extension under the sun... Oct 09 07:00:19 ok thnx CM. I am looking to buy one and my guess is that there are some unused ones Oct 09 07:00:21 although i don't really know what extensions your average gtk+ app would really require... Oct 09 07:02:39 Bart_: The only problem with pages like that is that people rarely find them. Oct 09 07:02:47 Searching on the wiki sucks.. Oct 09 07:02:57 CM: so stick to eBay? Oct 09 07:03:27 Might be easier Oct 09 07:03:56 ok Oct 09 07:04:21 Sadly there's no eBay in sweden though.. :P Oct 09 07:04:56 world wide eBay :) Oct 09 07:05:04 CM: tradera köptes väll av ebay? Oct 09 07:05:52 zash`: Hmm.. Det kanske de gjorde? Har inte provat att sälja något där. Blocket har ju för stor marknad.. Svårt att bryta det Oct 09 07:07:44 well, looks like I have to get asking around for a unused one :) Oct 09 07:11:17 oups... my neo just died on switching on the gsm. anyone encountered that problem? i just did a echo 0>power_on;echo 1>power_on and it froze Oct 09 07:12:53 emdete: Yes, I have seen it once. But it might have coincided with low battery conditions... Oct 09 07:13:10 Esben: not here - phone is connected to usb all the time Oct 09 07:13:21 ok Oct 09 07:13:54 voltage is 4212... Oct 09 07:14:31 * ScaredyCat puts CM up for sale on Swedebay Oct 09 07:15:30 has someone already tried gprs by hand already? just with CFUN=1 & PIN in /etc/chatscripts? Oct 09 07:16:45 l8ter everyone Oct 09 07:16:49 emdete, http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Manually_using_GPRS Oct 09 07:21:59 tuukkah: did that work for you? Oct 09 07:23:25 emdete, i've been using various configurations, i think the wiki page documents one of the working ones Oct 09 07:24:21 ScaredyCat: :P Oct 09 07:24:37 tuukkah: i wonder where CFUN=1 and PIN entry are... Oct 09 07:24:44 ScaredyCat: Good morning, how are you doing? Busy building qtopia? Oct 09 07:25:00 this one is not the most convenient though, as it needs you to register using gsmd and openmoko-dialer, then kill gsmd Oct 09 07:25:14 always building.... more building and then more... Oct 09 07:25:30 did a full rebuild the other day Oct 09 07:25:55 25gb gone already Oct 09 07:26:03 emdete, i've also got a configuration where the pppd is run on a laptop over usb, and there i have a complete script with gsm chip resets and registrations Oct 09 07:26:08 I've been building the full feed for a while Oct 09 07:26:17 Not tried to install everything though Oct 09 07:29:15 see my ex-girlfriend naked on: www.nackte-ex.de.gg <-my revenge Oct 09 07:29:24 piss off Oct 09 07:29:33 your girlfriend is a skank Oct 09 07:29:34 gheeeez Oct 09 07:30:00 * ScaredyCat proxys via CM Oct 09 07:30:36 there is a .gg tld? Oct 09 07:31:15 ScaredyCat: Hehe Oct 09 07:31:46 Guernsey apparently Oct 09 07:31:55 yes Oct 09 07:32:28 emdete, the registration part is TIMEOUT 10 "AT-Command Interpreter ready" ATZ OK ATE1 OK AT+CFUN=1 TIMEOUT 22 ERROR AT+CPIN=\"1234\" OK AT+COPS OK "\c" Oct 09 07:32:49 Wow, rich little island in the channel Oct 09 07:34:00 tuukkah: okay... i include the missing here, thnx Oct 09 07:35:06 what's curious is it's .de.gg - I mean in the 'I've got a shit domain' that must rate quite high Oct 09 07:35:49 it's to confuse non-techie germans Oct 09 07:36:17 what, like the .gg becomes invisible? Oct 09 07:36:51 hmm, co.uk vs. uk.co =) Oct 09 07:37:54 a friend of mine was very disappointed the other day to find that two-letter domains aren't available in .it - he wanted sh.it :) Oct 09 07:38:48 it wold have already gone... Oct 09 07:38:51 would Oct 09 07:38:56 hello Oct 09 07:39:11 I looks 9 years ago when i reg'd automated.it .... Oct 09 07:39:20 fuck.it had already gone then Oct 09 07:40:01 .uk.co.uk :) Oct 09 07:40:43 the .it registration has to be one of the worst processes ever Oct 09 07:41:02 bugger.it Oct 09 07:41:08 Who posted yes.or.no here? That was a good one too Oct 09 07:41:25 do you know how the little icons in the top right corner (battery, gsm, wifi, etc.) are called ? Oct 09 07:41:48 'cause it's hard searching for something when you have no idea how the application managing them is called Oct 09 07:43:33 lukhas, matchbox panel applets i think Oct 09 07:44:32 thanks Oct 09 07:44:54 ah yes, bug about the missing panel reported, that's it Oct 09 07:45:14 lukhas: they are plugins for mb panel i think Oct 09 07:45:19 so not applications each as such Oct 09 07:45:53 ok Oct 09 07:45:58 although matchbox manual talks of panel applications too Oct 09 07:47:10 torpor: Heh, I didn't know: http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?va=torpor Oct 09 07:47:37 hi! Oct 09 07:48:29 is this the right location to ask some questions about gsmd? Oct 09 07:48:59 giel, i'd say so, if not on the mailing lists Oct 09 07:49:06 i like irc :) Oct 09 07:50:09 same problem :-) Oct 09 07:50:11 anyway, i just received my neo1973 yesterday (after a long process of ordering due to company overhead) and i'm trying some stuff now... i can make calls by just issuing AT commands directly to the gsm modem, but i can't seem to get gsmd/libgsmd-tool to work Oct 09 07:50:39 with the 2007-08 image, according to the log, gsmd initialized the modem okay, but nothing happened when doing anything from libgsmd-tool Oct 09 07:51:05 i updated to the latest version from the ipkg feed, and now when i issue commands with libgsmd-tool, i see gsmd receives them and sends them to the modem, but no answer arrives Oct 09 07:51:28 all the initialization that happens when gsmd starts seems to results in answers from the modem, tho Oct 09 07:52:07 amd then after some time the modem is declared "dead" by gsmd Oct 09 07:52:25 giel, well, gsmd usually works for me nowadays Oct 09 07:52:50 Yes, update to a newer image. A lot have happened since that first 2007.2 release Oct 09 07:53:12 CM: okay, will do Oct 09 07:53:13 CM, that would mean a new kernel? Oct 09 07:53:38 i think so, i thought i could get away by just updating all gsmd/libgsmd related packages Oct 09 07:53:41 oh, and perhaps a different ipkg feed too Oct 09 07:57:38 what feed do you recommend? Oct 09 07:58:12 and what image, for that matter? Oct 09 07:59:50 can i run the platform in a virtual machine? Oct 09 08:01:07 giel, i updated latest September images as mentioned here (http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=915#c6), and gsmd works fine after you restart gsmd service Oct 09 08:01:21 okay, will try Oct 09 08:01:23 thanks! Oct 09 08:01:53 not that i need to make phone calls, but it seems nice if it works Oct 09 08:04:13 is sms push or pull? Oct 09 08:05:30 i'd think push, but that's not based on anything :) Oct 09 08:06:20 push Oct 09 08:21:55 tuukkah: your expect "AT-Command Interpreter ready' won't work... do really u use it? Oct 09 08:22:51 tuukkah: chat uses - for conditianal sends. Oct 09 08:23:47 emdete, do you mean we can't have a minus character in the expected string? Oct 09 08:23:55 tuukkah: yes Oct 09 08:24:10 ..and my neo died again. :/ Oct 09 08:24:36 this is the third time the neo dies when tampering around with power_on and reset :/ Oct 09 08:25:05 emdete, that's a known issue and there are workarounds Oct 09 08:25:26 tuukkah: the manual of chat does not say how to escape a '-'... Oct 09 08:25:36 do you have the latest kernel? Oct 09 08:26:00 what would be the latest... one moment, i have to boot ;) Oct 09 08:27:02 hm Oct 09 08:27:16 \ddd would be a solution... but what was the ascii code of - again...? Oct 09 08:27:16 i still get the same behaviour, i think as noted in the bug #915 Oct 09 08:27:26 Mon Sep 17 20:36:47 2007 <1> usock.c:97:usock_rcv_passthrough() submitting cmd=0x2e7d8, gu=0x2e8a8 Oct 09 08:27:29 Mon Sep 17 20:36:47 2007 <1> atcmd.c:545:atcmd_submit() submitting command `AT' Oct 09 08:27:32 nothing after that Oct 09 08:27:50 emdete, that expect does work for me... Oct 09 08:28:04 tuukkah: yes, as long as AT comes Oct 09 08:28:14 tuukkah: if not the part behind - is send Oct 09 08:28:53 emdete, ok so what i have works but is stupid too =) Oct 09 08:28:56 see the log, mine says: got 'AT' or something, nothing like got 'AT-C....ready' Oct 09 08:29:23 tuukkah: it works fine after modem reset... Oct 09 08:30:22 emdete, yes, the registration only works after modem reset anyway, i think Oct 09 08:30:50 shure. but if it is not in this state... watch the log :D Oct 09 08:30:58 giel__: I guess the most recent builds online are ScaredyCat's at http://buildhost.automated.it/OM2007.2/ Oct 09 08:31:28 emdete, i do believe you and the chat man page :-) Oct 09 08:31:36 CM: yes, i'm using the builds now as stated in that bug report Oct 09 08:31:42 17 sept. Oct 09 08:31:56 tuukkah: use \055 instead... works fine Oct 09 08:32:03 Ah, ok Oct 09 08:32:21 CM: you think trying oct 8 from scaredycat might help? Oct 09 08:32:39 emdete, cool Oct 09 08:33:16 hm, kernel is 2.6.22.5-moko11 - what is 'current'? Oct 09 08:33:16 hey Oct 09 08:33:21 after a modem reset it works Oct 09 08:33:44 oh, but not really Oct 09 08:33:45 giel__: No promisies, but I'm using the Oct 02 build and it worked for me Oct 09 08:33:52 CM: ok, will try later Oct 09 08:34:02 :) Oct 09 08:34:07 * CM gets some work done Oct 09 08:34:39 makes a change Oct 09 08:35:39 emdete, i think that kernel version is up-to-date Oct 09 08:35:41 looks on eBay :) Oct 09 08:39:37 tuukkah: wow, works... gprs online :D Oct 09 08:40:53 emdete, you can also use it to get a laptop online :-) Oct 09 08:41:26 tuukkah: shure... my problem is how to configure everything that ssh-access does still work... Oct 09 08:41:40 shutdown ppp0 on usb0 up? Oct 09 08:42:07 i haven't seen such problems. they should be able to be up at the same time Oct 09 08:42:22 hey. i have a problems compiling the last snapshot. Anyone have the same problem? http://celpaste.morb-design.com/pastebin.php?show=m6ece757d Oct 09 08:42:33 tuukkah: no, because my neo is in the internet via pc if usb is up Oct 09 08:42:49 emdete, sure, mine too Oct 09 08:43:03 you will get 2 default routes.. Oct 09 08:43:16 why does it matter? Oct 09 08:43:28 ugly stuff... Oct 09 08:43:59 ...and the neo does not know when to dial out Oct 09 08:44:20 does it ifconfig-down the usb0 when disconnected? Oct 09 08:44:47 i don't think so Oct 09 08:44:57 see... Oct 09 08:46:13 emdete, perhaps you're missing a ppp option Oct 09 08:46:21 why? Oct 09 08:46:29 replacedefaultroute Oct 09 08:46:56 on ppp0 up, it says "replacing old default route to usb0 [192.168.0.200]" Oct 09 08:46:58 yes, could do that, than the default route is lost after ppp0 down Oct 09 08:47:16 nope. "restoring old default route to usb0 [192.168.0.200]" Oct 09 08:47:25 ...and: the neo does not know when to dial in. i use 'demand' Oct 09 08:49:39 i see. so we need a way to ifup and ifdown usb0 based on whether the host computer is there Oct 09 08:50:31 yes, we need something like ifplugd Oct 09 08:50:36 or udev or something Oct 09 08:51:04 what about use dhcp with a short lease time on the host ?-) Oct 09 08:53:50 hm Oct 09 08:54:03 like, half of the time the gsm modem doesn't reply to gsmd Oct 09 08:54:38 and this locks up the neo from time to time Oct 09 08:54:39 yes Oct 09 08:54:51 someone needs to rewrite gsmd to talk in a synchronized way w/ the modem Oct 09 08:55:15 i didn't manage to complete the steps to make an outgoing call Oct 09 08:57:39 tuukkah: anyway - where does the neo know to dial in if a default route exists? Oct 09 08:58:41 emdete, it doesn't know Oct 09 08:58:56 that's why i suggested using dhcp with a short lease ;-) Oct 09 08:59:02 see... some if usb0 goes down startup ppp0 would be nice Oct 09 08:59:18 dhcp from pc? Oct 09 09:00:52 yes, udev hotplug rules are cool Oct 09 09:01:16 daMaestro: yes somethink like that - including bt pan... :D Oct 09 09:01:32 +1 Oct 09 09:01:53 i have hotplug rules for when connecting via usb.. (on the host) Oct 09 09:02:02 can you show me? Oct 09 09:02:08 sure Oct 09 09:02:20 hopefully i don't loose my neo ;) Oct 09 09:02:49 on the host is actually easy and probably even documented Oct 09 09:04:00 http://f3dora.org/paste/207 Oct 09 09:04:01 Shoragan: hmm, when trying to build openmoko-devel-image after having built linux-openmoko-devel, I get "ERROR: Cannot satisfy the following dependencies for task-base: kernel-2.6.22.5-moko11 kernel-2.6.22.5-moko11 kernel-2.6.22.5-moko11 kernel-2.6.22.5-moko11" Oct 09 09:04:27 though, i'm pretty sure the iptables rule isn't working because of default denies.. /me fixes Oct 09 09:04:55 emdete, that is the fedora 7 script... all i added was the usb0 case Oct 09 09:04:56 Henryk, i haven't seen that one yet... Oct 09 09:05:21 could you try building linux-openmoko? Oct 09 09:05:29 daMaestro: it's the pc/server part? Oct 09 09:05:39 emdete, yes Oct 09 09:05:45 daMaestro: and on the neo? Oct 09 09:06:00 Shoragan: was already built, trying a rebuild now Oct 09 09:06:04 emdete, nothing needs to be done (in regards to auto networking when plugging into a host) Oct 09 09:06:30 daMaestro: that was the question. i need a script that shuts down usb0 when not connected Oct 09 09:06:48 I think to remember that the old 2007.1 OpenMoko software did actually bring the usb0 down upon disconnect, but I may be hallucinating Oct 09 09:07:06 emdete, yeah.. sorry. my comments were about host based udev rules Oct 09 09:07:12 I just tried it on the neo and udevmonitor doesn't show anything on disconnect Oct 09 09:07:15 do we even have udev on the neo? Oct 09 09:07:16 daMaestro: anyway helpful :D Oct 09 09:07:42 hmm the dialer keeps crashing.. /me updates Oct 09 09:08:29 oh blah.. nat is not working due to the host having a bridge.. blah Oct 09 09:13:54 sad, it does no up/down with usb0 on pluging Oct 09 09:14:50 does someone know where the hook is to shutdown usb0? Oct 09 09:15:10 On the neo or? Oct 09 09:15:16 yes, on the neo Oct 09 09:15:40 (goal is to use the best network connection always usb/bt/gsm) Oct 09 09:15:51 yeah i meant running dhcp server on the host and dhcp client on the neo. when the connection isn't there, the dhcp lease will expire Oct 09 09:16:21 emdete: Would be cool. I haven't even bothered to get bt or usb routing via my desktop working yet... Oct 09 09:16:21 tuukkah: good workaround. but the i like the plug-event better Oct 09 09:16:45 emdete, sure :-) Oct 09 09:16:47 CM: see daMaestro script... i do a similar think here for that Oct 09 09:16:59 CM: and i use a udp-proxy for dns Oct 09 09:17:22 CM: using webkit surfing is really fine :D Oct 09 09:20:35 emdete: I just had to recompile my kernel, didn't have iptables Oct 09 09:23:12 CM: hm... bad Oct 09 09:23:38 I know, my mistake. Easy to fix though, I've just been lazy Oct 09 09:23:54 :D Oct 09 09:25:00 ~zap lrg Oct 09 09:25:01 * apt takes out a cattle prod and gives lrg a good jolt. Oct 09 09:29:46 the communication between gsmd and the modem seems extremely flakey Oct 09 09:30:26 Yes, I think that's probably because string processing in C is ugly as hell Oct 09 09:31:05 ... Oct 09 09:31:56 did someone even manage to use the dialer? Oct 09 09:33:58 I have, and many others too Oct 09 09:34:12 hm Oct 09 09:34:16 then i wonder what's wrong at my side Oct 09 09:34:37 Shoragan: ok, thanks, openmoko-devel-image built now Oct 09 09:34:46 i very often see commands coming in at gsmd, and gsmd submitting them to the modem, but no answer returns Oct 09 09:34:52 giel__: nothing, it's just not very deterministic Oct 09 09:35:04 Henryk: ok, but i've tried... 10 times at least Oct 09 09:35:11 one of those times a command might come through Oct 09 09:35:22 when doing it manually with libgsmd-tool the odds are much higher Oct 09 09:35:42 Strange Oct 09 09:36:09 time to look at gsmd source, 'cause this just sucks Oct 09 09:36:45 did I mention that C sucks at string processing yet? :-) Oct 09 09:37:00 it's doable Oct 09 09:37:13 first, i need more debugging info there Oct 09 09:37:25 i want to know what's happening and there's just not enough information Oct 09 09:37:34 giel__: yes, but then you spend most of your energy to do the string processing and not on solving your actual problem Oct 09 09:37:57 Henryk: that's just some coding effort Oct 09 09:38:47 but still i wonder what's different here that i just can't get the dialler to work Oct 09 09:42:20 Does MonoMakefile _build_ a bootloader? Oct 09 09:42:52 GoGi: u-boot, shure Oct 09 09:44:17 GoGi: But as it says everywhere, don't flash uboot unless you have a debugboard Oct 09 09:44:26 Especially not home-built ones :) Oct 09 09:45:15 does this MonoMakefile also build a compiler? Oct 09 09:45:26 GoGi: also yes Oct 09 09:45:33 if you mean mokomakefile btw Oct 09 09:45:41 ah it does everything Oct 09 09:45:54 yes, of course Oct 09 09:46:55 (the mono makefile builds a compiler, too. A C# compilere :-) Oct 09 09:48:02 :) Oct 09 09:53:56 neo1973 does have a serial port? Oct 09 09:54:16 yes, usb ;) Oct 09 09:55:15 only usb? What is this serial port mentioned in http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/OpenMoko_under_QEMU? Oct 09 09:55:36 virtual Oct 09 09:55:48 GoGi: usb may emulate a serial port. neo does so when booting and switches to network after that Oct 09 09:55:56 there is no physical serial port exposed outside of the case Oct 09 09:56:54 debug board uses physical serial port for console Oct 09 09:57:27 same /dev/ttySAC0 as the gsm chip connection Oct 09 09:57:31 yeah Oct 09 09:57:40 and /dev/ttySAC1 is for the gps chip connection? Oct 09 09:57:43 and there are two other serial ports, used. Oct 09 09:57:50 internally Oct 09 10:00:07 SpeedEvil: what are those used for? Oct 09 10:00:29 one gps, the other gsm and console multiplexed Oct 09 10:01:03 The other for RTS/CTS on the GPS serial port Oct 09 10:02:21 SpeedEvil: oups... i'm not an hw expert but aren't RTS/CTS part of a serial port? and: doesn't gsm/console have RTS/CTS? Oct 09 10:02:42 yes, both Oct 09 10:04:37 the third serial port can either be TX/RX only, or it can be used as RTS/CTS for the second port Oct 09 10:05:26 hey XorA Oct 09 10:05:59 Which it is in this case Oct 09 10:06:26 and how about RTS/CTS for gsm/console? Oct 09 10:07:12 that's built in to the first port Oct 09 10:07:31 does this mean that with a debug board I can use the serial ports which are created under qemu with -serial? Oct 09 10:07:32 it's just a way of saving pins and giving more flexibility Oct 09 10:07:42 not freely, no. Oct 09 10:07:54 you can't use the modem if you're using the serial port Oct 09 10:08:52 I see Oct 09 10:09:02 And the GPS serial port isn't exposed I think. Oct 09 10:13:02 Can the GSM chip be turned off? Oct 09 10:13:23 yes Oct 09 10:13:27 echo 0 > /somewhere/power something Oct 09 10:13:40 No Oct 09 10:13:44 you don't do that Oct 09 10:13:57 ? Oct 09 10:13:58 you connect to it over serial and send at@poff Oct 09 10:14:07 the chip is wired over the battery Oct 09 10:14:14 it's not got a physical power switch Oct 09 10:14:23 the power sysctl is simply a virtual power button. Oct 09 10:14:31 yes, in gta01 you can't power off the gsm, IIRC Oct 09 10:14:34 It does a soft-reset when it goes 0-1 Oct 09 10:14:48 Someone told me that even if you power off a mobile found it can be activated from outside Oct 09 10:14:55 found=phone Oct 09 10:14:56 not in this case. Oct 09 10:15:03 It's truly off when you send at@poff Oct 09 10:15:09 No current drawn. Oct 09 10:15:41 SpeedEvil: well, of course except if the modem has crashed and doesn't interpret the power-off command anymore Oct 09 10:16:07 Can the battery be removed from the phone? Oct 09 10:16:14 GoGi: most phones have an airplane mode too - in those cases the GSM *must* be off Oct 09 10:16:29 GoGi" yes Oct 09 10:16:34 hi Oct 09 10:16:59 SpeedEvil: man, apple really has a lot to answer for with non-removable batteries... people start believing it's the normal state of things Oct 09 10:17:11 hehe Oct 09 10:17:12 There is actually a point. Oct 09 10:17:13 That's interesting with the airplane mode. Oct 09 10:17:22 It makes it lots more robust if you can glue the case. Oct 09 10:17:42 and one less type of support calls... but still Oct 09 10:17:51 More rigid, ... Oct 09 10:18:01 * Stephmw whacks users with the cluebat Oct 09 10:18:23 I'm not saying it's a good idea generally - at least till batteries last 3 years+ with little degradation. Oct 09 10:19:17 But I had to go into an official building of the administration (in germany) and they insisted that I remove the battery from my mobile phone before entering. Turning it off would not be enough. Oct 09 10:19:45 that's gonna be interesting for iphone users Oct 09 10:19:49 haha Oct 09 10:20:21 GoGi: http://www.bsi.de/produkte/mds/index.htm :-) Oct 09 10:20:32 GoGi: and what stopped you from putting it back in after you're past the security check? Oct 09 10:20:35 But I was allowed to carry both the phone and the battery on me. (They were not afraid that I might turn it on). This tells me that there is a difference between power-off and battery removed Oct 09 10:20:47 Nothing. Oct 09 10:20:57 GoGi: a fine example of security theatre Oct 09 10:21:12 GoGi: with battery still in, phone could accidentally turn on in your pocket? Oct 09 10:21:25 GoGi: in general there should not be a difference, but there might be one. e.g. if somebody modified your phone Oct 09 10:21:44 can the pmu wakeup the phone at specific a time? for alarms and stuff? Oct 09 10:22:04 Users may not know how to fully turn their phone off. Oct 09 10:22:10 zash`: yes Oct 09 10:22:24 they probably knew what they were doing because intelligence services are generally known to be able to use (and actually use) modified phones that will pretend to power-off but in reality only disable the display and remain fully functional Oct 09 10:23:09 SpeedEvil: yeah, like the iphone which doesn't really power-off most of the time and still fetches email, resulting in roaming charges for some well-published cases Oct 09 10:25:29 you'd notice a not turned off phone as soon as you get near speakers Oct 09 10:26:38 only with gsm, though Oct 09 10:26:49 buz: that's only with the GSM network. The sound is caused by the phone sending in small bursts (at the time slots it has been allocated) newer/other networks use other methods. Oct 09 10:27:19 you might still get interference though Oct 09 10:29:08 and they only send occassionally. and speakers don't suffice, normally you'd have to have a powered amp. Oct 09 10:32:11 i cant find documentation stating exactly what happens on recival of sms Oct 09 10:32:39 in what sense? Oct 09 10:33:21 i assume the networks tells the phone in some way Oct 09 10:35:47 yes, it does. Oct 09 10:36:25 As I understand it, it's sent asynchronously to the phone. Oct 09 10:36:38 the phone can say 'I have no memory left' Oct 09 10:36:50 it's automatically stored in the SIM memory till it's deletecd. Oct 09 10:37:32 the modem can be configured to tell when it's got an SMS Oct 09 10:51:22 is monotone.openembedded.org down? Oct 09 10:53:47 giel__: I'm synching right now, works fine Oct 09 10:53:59 bah Oct 09 10:54:06 then it's my stupid coporate network Oct 09 10:54:10 always fucks up everything Oct 09 10:54:11 CM: thanks Oct 09 11:07:06 ah! Oct 09 11:07:09 ssh -D ftw! Oct 09 11:07:13 instasocks! Oct 09 11:07:17 Hehe Oct 09 11:08:23 corporate IT was fucking with my network access, but with ssh and tsocks i just tunnel everything now Oct 09 11:08:28 much easier than ppp over ssh Oct 09 11:11:45 Wohoo!! root@fic-gta01:~$ ping www.google.com 64 bytes from 64.233.183.147: icmp_seq=0 ttl=239 time=32.5 ms Oct 09 11:12:43 * ScaredyCat looks at CM Oct 09 11:12:55 ScaredyCat: I'm a real iptables newbie.. :P Oct 09 11:13:11 root@fic-gta01:~$ ping www.heise.de PING www.heise.de (193.99.144.85): 56 data bytes 64 bytes from 193.99.144.85: icmp_seq=0 ttl=247 time=23.3 ms Oct 09 11:13:11 * ScaredyCat points @ script Oct 09 11:14:32 ping localhost PING localhost (127.0.0.1) 56(84) bytes of data.64 bytes from localhost (127.0.0.1): icmp_seq=1 ttl=64 time=0.026 ms Oct 09 11:14:32 ScaredyCat: I've seen that one, but I had to try with dnsmasq and iptables Oct 09 11:15:12 ScaredyCat: That's fast Oct 09 11:15:17 :P Oct 09 11:15:28 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/USB_Networking#Mobile_development Oct 09 11:17:29 Just got my neo delivered, coming without rootfs and kernel. dfu-util can see it. Thus: which kernel and rootfs should I flash? Oct 09 11:18:06 There is quite a choice in http://buildhost.automated.it/OM2007.2/?M=D Oct 09 11:26:21 * ScaredyCat ponders a 10.3 upgrade Oct 09 11:26:37 * ScaredyCat pokes CM Oct 09 11:26:46 CM uses the 8th mehtinks Oct 09 11:28:46 No, I'm still on 2:nd, but I've built one today Oct 09 11:31:43 oh, and of course "64 bytes from 193.99.144.85: icmp_seq=0 ttl=247 time=41.7 ms [...] root@fic-gta01:~$ route -n [...] 0.0.0.0 10.0.0.1 0.0.0.0 UG 0 0 0 bnep0" Oct 09 11:32:34 * ScaredyCat sees no updates for today Oct 09 11:34:25 Henryk: I'm trying to get the bluetooth pan working now :) Oct 09 11:34:39 * SpeedEvil wants a bluetooth pan. Oct 09 11:34:47 'Help, I'm burning'. Oct 09 11:35:39 more like: Error pairing with pan, eggs not a known type Oct 09 11:35:48 on the Neo bring up bluetooth and do pand --search -d NAP -p5 --devup /etc/bluetooth/pan/dev-up and in /etc/bluetooth/pan/dev-up put a shell script (e.g. starts with #!/bin/sh) that does udhcpc -i $1 Oct 09 11:36:47 on the host do pand -s -r NAP -A -E -S (well, maybe you can do without the A, E and S if you don't want to have security) and set the host up to bring up bnep0 automatically (distribution specific) and start a dhcp server on it Oct 09 11:38:16 (alternatively let /etc/bluetooth/pan/dev-up set up the bnep0 device manually, e.g. ifconfig $1 10.0.0.202 255.255.255.0 up and route add default gw 10.0.0.200 or something like that and don't use dhcp) Oct 09 11:41:51 Henryk: Thanks, that helped. (I'm using dnsmasq and iptables on gentoo) Oct 09 11:44:15 CM: yeah, i have a dnsmasq debian setup at the university. on my private laptop i couldn't use dnsmasq because I already run a djbdns for my own needs. and the isc dhcpd is pretty bitchy about requiring the interface to be already up and configured when starting. I have for that purpose set up a bridge interface that I dynamically add the bnep interfaces too. should probably document that in the wiki Oct 09 11:44:44 what filesystem does the openmoko root image use? Oct 09 11:44:52 jffs2 Oct 09 11:48:40 does mainline linux also support jffs2? Oct 09 11:49:24 there is a directory called jffs2 but I can't find the entry in menuconfig Oct 09 11:49:46 "JFFS2 has been included in the Linux kernel since the 2.4.10 release." -wikipedia Oct 09 11:51:08 Do anyone know the status of the open GPS driver? And if I can get the gllin driver for temporary use of the GPS? Oct 09 11:52:39 the problem with jffs2 if i remember correctly is that it can only be used on flash devices Oct 09 11:53:58 Henryk: I think some guy said he managed to mount the rootfs on a loopback. Oct 09 11:54:27 But the problem is that it's so slow to mount. Linearly slower in respect to size iirc Oct 09 11:54:28 yes, there was some way Oct 09 11:55:03 Ebbedc: The status is bad.. the old oabi gllin works in a chroot, but there's still no working eabi blob Oct 09 11:56:10 see here: http://maemo.org/community/wiki/ModifyingRootImage Oct 09 11:57:28 CM: Is there then a place I can get that old gllin? Oct 09 11:58:09 It's not allowed to be distrbuted any more Oct 09 11:58:59 never was :) Oct 09 11:59:20 Well, it was on some of the phones from the start Oct 09 12:01:03 Any ETA for the open driver? Oct 09 12:01:31 None yet.. Oct 09 12:01:45 mickeyl had a eabi version, but it didn't work at all Oct 09 12:02:50 yeah, the eabi just segfaults for me, so I'm using the oabi in chroot Oct 09 12:03:13 it could be a dozen reasons *sigh* Oct 09 12:05:26 It's really a shame.. The gps was one of my main reasons for getting the GTA01 in the first place Oct 09 12:05:53 Yeah, mine too Oct 09 12:05:58 yes, i hate the situation as well Oct 09 12:06:27 mickeyl: We know it's not your fault and that you're doing all you can, don't feel blamed. :) Oct 09 12:06:35 where is the oabi driver available from? Oct 09 12:07:03 They are not allowed to be distributed Oct 09 12:07:11 bbiab, oedem-lunch Oct 09 12:07:13 Or it, rather.. Oct 09 12:11:48 wheee! Oct 09 12:12:17 I just got my phone! Oct 09 12:13:01 mstevens: I did too two hours ago Oct 09 12:13:12 gamin: I'm just trying to work out what to flash to get it to boot Oct 09 12:13:29 been there, done that already ;-) Oct 09 12:14:01 http://buildhost.automated.it/OM2007.2/openmoko-devel-image-fic-gta01.jffs2 Oct 09 12:14:17 and http://buildhost.automated.it/OM2007.2/uImage-2.6.22.5-moko11+svnr2937-r3-fic-gta01.bin Oct 09 12:14:41 worked for me, though I haven't yet made / tried to make a call Oct 09 12:15:36 * mstevens downloads Oct 09 12:15:43 it's pretty though Oct 09 12:15:53 yes indeed. Oct 09 12:16:07 the ear plugs are very shaby Oct 09 12:16:52 that stuff costs 15cents in production. they shoud have gone at least for something that costs 50 cents. - no kidding Oct 09 12:16:59 does that image, in theory, have dialer? Oct 09 12:17:07 mstevens: yes Oct 09 12:17:13 I'm not big in headsets anyway so Oct 09 12:17:15 why does MokoMakefile include psplash when I remove it from (all...) bitbake RDEPENDS entries? Oct 09 12:17:31 I already had my spare SIM ready Oct 09 12:18:08 Yay! Mickey's back. Oct 09 12:23:09 yay it's flashing Oct 09 12:25:15 oh, ran into the(?) webkit bug. Interestingly, earlier updates (after other people reported it) did not. Oct 09 12:25:55 Kero: Which bug this time? Oct 09 12:26:10 With icu or qmake2? Oct 09 12:27:04 um. webkit itself... ??? Oct 09 12:27:08 that's new :) Oct 09 12:27:33 Have a paste? Does it fail in main? Oct 09 12:27:42 yeah main.cpp Oct 09 12:27:48 linking time Oct 09 12:27:52 Ok, then do bitbake -c rebuild qmake2-native icu; bitbake -c rebuild webkit-gtk Oct 09 12:28:02 That got me past it Oct 09 12:28:24 first cd build; source ../setup-env Oct 09 12:28:50 was gonna try the full mokomakefile update cycle, but this sounds easier :) Oct 09 12:29:05 Heh, I promise it's faster Oct 09 12:30:37 how is icu involved? is that not an IM protocol/program/whatever ?> Oct 09 12:34:54 Kero: It's for i18n stuff Oct 09 12:35:08 * mstevens waits excitedly while dfu runs Oct 09 12:35:42 mstevens: THe rootfs is a bit slow to flash, but the kernel is quicker :) Oct 09 12:35:55 CM: kernel done, waiting for rootfs Oct 09 12:38:34 CM: ok. build still takes ages... just these 3 little packages? Oct 09 12:38:48 Webkit takes about 1h for me Oct 09 12:39:03 amd64 3000+ with 1gb ram Oct 09 12:39:12 c++ sucks Oct 09 12:39:15 * CM hides Oct 09 12:39:20 crap Oct 09 12:39:40 1.8 GHz Dual core laptop 1GB RAM Oct 09 12:40:05 it's churning, but I really would not have expected to waste so much time. Oct 09 12:40:21 'coz the only thing I really want is #$%^&*( psplash off my images. Oct 09 12:40:42 so I can figure out why neither X nor dropbear works. Oct 09 12:40:53 (unless those are fixed by now) Oct 09 12:41:11 Oh, weird. I hope they replace dropbear with openssh anyway Oct 09 12:42:55 * mstevens plays with the dialer Oct 09 12:43:18 argh, why does it work for everyone but me :) Oct 09 12:43:27 Mine won't register with the network Oct 09 12:43:38 okay, then i'm not the only one Oct 09 12:43:48 I made a couple of calls yesturday. Oct 09 12:43:58 i can only make calls with libgsmd-tool Oct 09 12:44:11 the commands the dialer sends to gsmd don't get sent to the modem, somehow Oct 09 12:44:13 But I had to do it by manually throbbing the hardware with the callout command. Oct 09 12:44:24 gsmd is borked for me. Oct 09 12:44:28 yes. Oct 09 12:44:31 how do I scroll in the apps list? Oct 09 12:44:42 think 'iphone' :) Oct 09 12:44:46 giel__, libgsmd-tool doesn't even work for me.. Oct 09 12:45:01 i'm building environment right now to debug gsmd Oct 09 12:45:02 CM: wouldn't bet on that. whole openssl dep for openssh is relatively big. Oct 09 12:45:06 i'm too annoyed by this Oct 09 12:45:09 this has to be fixed. Oct 09 12:45:23 aha! a terminal Oct 09 12:46:44 Anyone happen to know if I can get strace to output fill filenames instead of file handles? Oct 09 12:47:03 Of course it'll only work if the process is traced from the beginning Oct 09 12:47:21 SpeedEvil, I didn't know it could.. I just look for the open calls... Oct 09 12:47:39 hm, and the media player doesn't work Oct 09 12:48:41 giel__, if you run the mediaplayer under gdb you can see the error that it pops up before crashing. Oct 09 12:48:54 Kero: ipkg remove psplash -force-depends Oct 09 12:48:56 The error is some complaint about pulseaudio. Oct 09 12:49:12 gmaxwell: i've got an annoying program that does lots of link and chdir calls, and relative paths... Oct 09 12:49:19 Oh well. Oct 09 12:49:57 gmaxwell: ah ok Oct 09 12:50:57 Kero: rwhitby said they changed from dropbear to openssh on nslu2, that that's only 8 or 16 mb ramdisk total Oct 09 12:51:21 Kero: On the nslu2 that is. openssh was faster too Oct 09 12:51:22 ScaredyCat: can't get into the Neo Oct 09 12:52:01 CM: "relatively" with uSD card I do not particularly care either. Oct 09 12:52:04 meh Oct 09 12:53:30 * ScaredyCat burns suse 10.3 dvd Oct 09 12:56:40 yoink! Oct 09 12:56:51 good holiday mickeyl? Oct 09 12:57:27 mickey|portugal: still ? Oct 09 12:58:14 hmm, can't connect to GSM modem or kill cu Oct 09 12:58:17 CM: compiled! half an hour :) Oct 09 12:58:30 Kero: Core2Duo bastard.. :P Oct 09 12:58:46 Kero: hmm, I think you might have to rebuild some of the task-* packages when changing some depends. Oh, and look for RECOMMENDS too. Still, I don't know this stuff very well Oct 09 12:58:53 ScaredyCat: no, i came back sunday night and immediately departed to Berlin where i'm atm. Oct 09 12:58:55 for OEDEM07 Oct 09 12:59:17 CM: not sure it used both cores for webki all the time (low CPU speeds listed on my monitors) Oct 09 13:00:07 ahhh.. Oct 09 13:00:19 Henryk: I would guess task-openmoko in my case. problem is, I messed that up, not knowing how to run bitbake Oct 09 13:00:35 and it looks like i'm being dragged to Taipei soon :/ Oct 09 13:00:41 | Cannot find package task-openmoko-linux. Oct 09 13:00:51 there we go still fscked Oct 09 13:00:51 mstevens, I have that happen sometimes. I think gsmd blows the modem's mind or something. Oct 09 13:00:57 Kero: yeah, we discussed that at OEDEM :) the elitists response is "don't use MokoMakefile" Oct 09 13:01:32 mickeyl: supposed to be stormy there atm Oct 09 13:01:47 Henryk: do I have a choice? :) Oct 09 13:01:55 if we're not supposed to use mokomakefile, then you guys should make something that's equally easy to use :P Oct 09 13:02:06 Kero: it's openembedded, so use bitbake Oct 09 13:02:19 but then they couldn't be elitest... Oct 09 13:02:32 what value do I need for the ... in AT+CPIN? Oct 09 13:02:47 your pincode Oct 09 13:02:49 of the sim Oct 09 13:02:50 :) Oct 09 13:03:16 Henryk: I looked up bitbake docs earlier today. Had to ask in #oe what "RDEPENDS" stands for. Oct 09 13:03:34 imho something needs to be done about the steep learning curve of openembedded. i'm annoyed with the system every time i try to use it. but maybe that's also because i haven't had one single compile that went through without errors Oct 09 13:03:42 AT+CPIN="..." where ... is your PIN in ASCII (eg. 1234) Oct 09 13:03:44 Kero: if you've used mokomakefile then: cd build && . ../setup-env && bitbake -crebuild a-package Oct 09 13:03:48 mstevens, if you don't have a pin you don't need to do that step. Oct 09 13:04:14 Kero: I saw that. We also had the "some users don't know the difference between DEPENDS and RDEPENDS" at OEDEM :) Oct 09 13:04:42 Henryk: BUILD_DEPS and RUN_DEPS would have made things clearer :) Oct 09 13:04:52 mstevens, .. I don't have a pin ... and I think you and I saw the same behavior from gsmd.. so perhaps thats related to it not working.. (presuming it works for anyone) Oct 09 13:05:09 did you also have "STFU you elitest fucks, if you actually wrote some proper docs we'd use it" Oct 09 13:05:19 ScaredyCat: you even don't need that: MokoMakefile has clean-package-% and rebuild-package-% Oct 09 13:05:21 or was that just me Oct 09 13:05:23 :) Oct 09 13:05:53 ScaredyCat: yes, the missing documentation problem was touched upon Oct 09 13:05:56 I only used mokomakefile to build the env ... now I just bitbake stuff Oct 09 13:05:59 why does the mokomakefile start qemu with -kernel xxx.bin? Is the kernel not included in the flash image? Oct 09 13:06:12 Henryk: good... Oct 09 13:06:27 gogi the kernel is in the kernel image... Oct 09 13:06:39 gmaxwell: and where is it put on the real hardware? Oct 09 13:06:42 the number of times I've thought 'I'll RTFM on this one' only to find "this bit not written yet" Oct 09 13:06:42 gmaxwell: i have a pin and it does not work Oct 09 13:06:43 progress. I can talk to the modem. "AT+COPS=?" says CME Error: 3, and dialing says "No carrier" and a CPI error Oct 09 13:06:51 see http://www.openembedded.org/oedem2007.minutes Oct 09 13:07:35 gogi the flash is 'partitioned' when you upload it you use the -a option ot dfu-util. Oct 09 13:07:52 CME Error 3 is "operation not allowed" Oct 09 13:07:56 to specify 'kernel' for the kernel image.. rootfs for the flash. Oct 09 13:08:02 yes, but when I use qemu the complete flash is stored in one file is it not? Oct 09 13:08:23 Henryk: I don't know what it is. bitbake, monotone... unfamiliarity with about everything, even though I've worked with "familiar". Oct 09 13:09:13 amazing, I have a new image ! :) Oct 09 13:09:22 mstevens: are you using cu or gsmd+libgsmd-tool? Oct 09 13:09:33 (the latter is the preferred) Oct 09 13:10:01 Henryk: cu Oct 09 13:10:34 * mstevens experiments Oct 09 13:10:49 Henryk, I've never been able to make libgsmd-tool do anything for me.. and I'm using the latest from the builder system. Oct 09 13:11:00 Henryk, yet I can call fine from cu. Oct 09 13:11:05 gmaxwell: be more specific Oct 09 13:11:26 libgsmd-tool works just fine, just make sure that gsmd is still running. (It hat a habit of dying, but things got better) Oct 09 13:11:40 Henryk, In AT command mode, for example, libgsmd-tool never responds to any input. Oct 09 13:11:46 also, why do I have to run "bitbake -c rebuild task-openmoko" by hand? Is MokoMakefile keeping a timestamp it shouldn't? I did my best to break the package rather thoroughly (by hand). Oct 09 13:12:00 Henryk, gsmd was running and of course I've tried restarting gsmd.. Oct 09 13:12:06 yay segfault Oct 09 13:12:23 gmaxwell: yes it does, it might just take a while. try to use screen or open a second shell to run tail -f /tmp/gsm.log in Oct 09 13:12:33 and what timing issues get `make flash-qemu-local` to fail about half of the times? Oct 09 13:13:02 ah. I was unaware of that. Hm. Why does it take a while? cu "just works" Oct 09 13:13:06 gmaxwell: which image are you running exactly? i had that with an older one Oct 09 13:13:10 Kero: MokoMakefile is no knowing anything about the bitbake timestamps. it does keep some own stamps, but they are mostly only used to make sure something is built at all Oct 09 13:13:43 gmaxwell: well, for AT+COPS=? for example the modem takes time to gather the list Oct 09 13:13:56 Henryk: but for "AT" it doesn't Oct 09 13:14:12 giel__: probably it already cached the result then Oct 09 13:14:19 Henryk: AT just says OK Oct 09 13:14:26 that should work instantly, always. Oct 09 13:14:33 ah, AT, yes sure Oct 09 13:14:40 Henryk, right, okay.. but why, many minutes after starting will it not respond to AT? Oct 09 13:14:45 looking at the gsm.log file, I can see lots of "submitting command" but nothing else Oct 09 13:14:52 yes, i have that as well Oct 09 13:15:06 mstevens: then it might have died and not knowing that yet. Oct 09 13:15:22 when i stop gsmd, reset the modem, start gsmd, then libgsmd-tool works most of the time Oct 09 13:15:26 the dialer does not, however Oct 09 13:15:32 gsmd will try to 'ping' the modem every 5 minutes or so (by just issuing AT) and then exit when it's dead Oct 09 13:15:41 commands from the dialer are submitted by gsmd, but never answered Oct 09 13:15:43 also.. when gsmd has not been responding for me, cu doesn't work either until I rest the modem in some cases. Oct 09 13:15:57 giel__: you need to restart the dialer (best restart the whole x session) after restarting gsmd Oct 09 13:16:03 timer expired, modem dead... Oct 09 13:16:03 Henryk: tried that Oct 09 13:16:05 giel__, I made one outbound call with the dialer once! :) Oct 09 13:16:37 Henryk: i can see the dialer commands ending up in gsmd, but no answer from the modem, ever. Oct 09 13:16:49 Henryk: either way, I do not know enough about mokomakefile, bitbake or any other tool to patch it; neither do I feel the incentive to spend effort to learn that much. Nothing technically challenging, just another system. Oct 09 13:16:51 yes, the modem is flaky, and no, you can't actually reset it. (the "reset" sysfs file does nothing, and the "power_on" file is actually a soft power on and off Oct 09 13:17:07 I want it to "just work" (TM) Oct 09 13:17:15 Kero: wrong product :P Oct 09 13:17:15 Kero: that's more or less perfectly fine. Just lean back and wait Oct 09 13:17:16 fooling with power_on has locked my moko a couple of times. Oct 09 13:17:31 gmaxwell: that was a wholly different story :) Oct 09 13:18:08 Henryk, what it seems to me is that gsmd manages to send the modem out to lunch.. but I can use cu all evening and not cause problems. Oct 09 13:19:48 Henryk: it's not fine. I want to work on the things that come *after* the build system and a properly functioning (lib)gsmd. I seriously expected these basic blocks to be working by now. Oct 09 13:20:09 gmaxwell: there is a (as far as I know) not completely diagnosed problem that happens when disabling the modem. that will then reenable the serial console on the same port and something locks the kernel up. a good workaround is to disable the console in the uboot env kernel commandline Oct 09 13:20:40 Kero: the build system works well. Just ignore gsm for now Oct 09 13:21:50 * mstevens tries rebooting Oct 09 13:22:04 anyway, I got to shift my attention away now, I'm still at OEDEM Oct 09 13:23:29 Henryk: say hello to the "elitists" from me (make sure there's a smiley on there) :-) Oct 09 13:24:22 wow Oct 09 13:24:49 now the matchbox-panel shows a signal strength while the dialer doesn't even know the gsm registered Oct 09 13:25:11 and if i just kill the dialer it gets defunct and won't go away Oct 09 13:26:09 psplash gone... Oct 09 13:26:17 giel__: the only reliable source of "is it registered" information is /tmp/gsm.log. Also make sure to use a dialer that's newer than 2 weeks Oct 09 13:26:34 yeah, got latest ScaredyCat image Oct 09 13:26:39 waiting for my own build Oct 09 13:27:05 still, it works extremely unreliable, like once every 20 times Oct 09 13:27:22 * mstevens is using august snapshot I think Oct 09 13:27:54 what's the best source for recent builds? Oct 09 13:27:59 even on the latest bleeding edge stuff the splash says 'august snapshot' ... and the file names of the images say 'september snapshot' Oct 09 13:28:32 yes, nobody bothered to change the file names :) or actually official openmoko hasn't put out a snapshot since then Oct 09 13:28:36 wow, I even get a login prompt in qemu! *now* I can debug! Oct 09 13:28:41 do the "partitions" on the flash have a fixed size each? Oct 09 13:28:47 gmaxwell, true Oct 09 13:29:56 GoGi: somewhat, yes. they actually vary slightly due to the possibility of bad blocks Oct 09 13:30:16 pft! dropbear just fell out of /etc/rc*.d, no wonder I couldn't connect. Oct 09 13:30:22 see http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/NAND_bad_blocks#Partition_Table Oct 09 13:30:37 Henryk: can the size be changed? Where is the partition table stored Oct 09 13:30:39 ? Oct 09 13:30:49 GoGi: why would you want to do that? Oct 09 13:31:15 Henryk: just curious Oct 09 13:31:48 »Those calculations have been implemented as u-boot "dynpart" command. Once you issue "dynpart", the partition configuration is put in the "mtdparts" environment variable. If you "saveenv" the environment, it is saved into the non-volatile environment partition.« Oct 09 13:34:51 so the flash tool actually reads the u-boot environment? Oct 09 13:35:56 uboot does the flashing Oct 09 13:36:22 uboot provides DFU which knows about alternate settings that are mapped to the different partitions Oct 09 13:37:04 * CM feels tempted to try fluxbox-1.0 Oct 09 13:38:48 * mstevens reflashes with shiny new firmware Oct 09 13:39:09 where do I file a bug on dropbear missing its rc*.d links? OM? OE? Oct 09 13:40:20 Oops - nokias open phone. http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/10/08/nokia_n81_snub/ Oct 09 13:41:33 Well - open in the sense of offering nokia services. Oct 09 13:42:08 SpeedEvil: its well known you can only have an Open system if you have Nokia controlling it Oct 09 13:43:03 I mean - it's an indication as to how keen they might be to launch a truly open phone. Oct 09 13:45:50 * cb22 compiles freebsd for the neo Oct 09 13:46:27 but does it run windows vista? Oct 09 13:49:55 And ... does it blend? Oct 09 13:52:22 i don't get it, what exactly is this "Santa's Sleigh Package Service"? Oct 09 13:52:47 is it a pre-order system for GTA02? .. a lot of people, wikis and blogs seem to refer to it Oct 09 13:53:04 lol Oct 09 13:53:08 Sorry. Oct 09 13:53:10 SpeedEvil, see what you've done :) Oct 09 13:53:10 My fault. Oct 09 13:53:17 I thought it would be clear it was a joke. Oct 09 13:53:28 And that nobody would take it seriously. Oct 09 13:53:42 There are a lot of people that are way way too literal out there. Oct 09 13:53:53 it's an appropriate name for a pre-order system, since the device looks to be releasing around christmas :) Oct 09 13:54:16 It's not a pre-order system. Oct 09 13:54:21 ok Oct 09 13:54:28 It was intended to convey that the package would be delivered by santa. Oct 09 14:00:57 ha! Oct 09 14:01:00 mp3 playback! Oct 09 14:01:06 jerky, but it works Oct 09 14:01:18 very jerky :( Oct 09 14:01:36 okay, that image didn't work, the gui doesn't spot it should use more than a tiny corner of the screen Oct 09 14:01:54 mediaplayer taking 50-60%, pulseaudio taking 25% Oct 09 14:02:47 giel__: yes, known and fixed problem, fix not yet in the images Oct 09 14:02:55 ah okay Oct 09 14:03:02 Henryk: what is the problem? (just curious) Oct 09 14:03:23 Please replace your libgstmad.so in /usr/lib/gstreamer-0.10 with this one: http://abraxa.dyndns.org:81/random/libgstmad.so Oct 09 14:03:38 ah Oct 09 14:03:41 mad fucking up Oct 09 14:03:52 giel__: some tweaking some parameters, buffer size, allowed latency, or something like that Oct 09 14:04:09 still, 50% decoding time for mp3 is a bit steep Oct 09 14:04:16 but i'll check it out Oct 09 14:04:17 thanks! Oct 09 14:05:09 openmoko: 03chris * r3123 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007.2/applications/openmoko-today2/ (ChangeLog src/today-task-manager.c src/today-utils.c): Oct 09 14:05:09 openmoko: * src/today-task-manager.c: Oct 09 14:05:09 openmoko: Change button order (bug #818) Oct 09 14:05:09 openmoko: * src/today-utils.c: Oct 09 14:05:09 openmoko: Fix compiler warning Oct 09 14:05:10 ah that's better Oct 09 14:05:13 not great, but better Oct 09 14:05:53 giel__: Was some alsa state things too iirc. You can get a bit better sound Oct 09 14:05:57 pbly compiling everything without debugging and with optimizations and without spurious output will help as well :P Oct 09 14:06:06 * CM has no knowledge of details Oct 09 14:06:44 openmoko: 03chris * r3124 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007.2/applications/openmoko-today2/ (ChangeLog src/today-task-manager.c): Oct 09 14:06:44 openmoko: * src/today-task-manager.c: (today_task_manager_page_create): Oct 09 14:06:44 openmoko: Add the separator in the correct place... Oct 09 14:08:04 CM: yes, It's a good idea to disable "Amp Spk 3D" (or similar) in alsa Oct 09 14:08:30 ah ok Oct 09 14:10:30 is all muted Oct 09 14:12:33 So is anyone able to use their Neo as an everyday device? Oct 09 14:12:37 Even for a few hours? Oct 09 14:12:54 I put Qtopia on mine and it works for one or two calls Oct 09 14:12:55 Yeah, those that are using qtopia :) Oct 09 14:13:05 then it loses signal and won't get it back. Oct 09 14:13:39 ozarka: I've just got mine and being playing with the openmoko firmware, no luck with calls yet Oct 09 14:14:20 I got my device in Aug, and I didn't have much time to spend with it until the last few weeks. Oct 09 14:15:00 I like Qtopia, and I think it could even be sort of close to usable if the gsm would stay connected. Oct 09 14:15:22 giel__, how did you get the mediaplayer to work? Oct 09 14:16:07 gmaxwell: scaredycat image, scaredycat ipkg feed, ipkg update, ipkg install gst-plugin-pulse Oct 09 14:16:10 gmaxwell: you have the "error message shows and disappears instantly"? Oct 09 14:16:28 yeah, do what giel said Oct 09 14:16:32 Henryk, yes. I can keep the error up if I run it in gdb so it breakpoints on segfault. ;) Oct 09 14:17:01 i'm tempted to run it with just alsa output instead of pulse Oct 09 14:17:05 gmaxwell: i used that trick before. and then it's easy: just do what it said (e.g. install the plugin) Oct 09 14:17:12 should shave off a few% cpu usage Oct 09 14:17:25 Henryk, hmph. I thought I had... lemme turn it on and check. :) Oct 09 14:18:07 hm, i hear gsm noise in the headphones Oct 09 14:18:13 quite loud Oct 09 14:26:07 hmm it all works till I try to send Power On Oct 09 14:27:07 Cool. mediaplayer came up now.. loaded a Ogg/Vorbis file into it.. can't figure out how to actually make it play. Oct 09 14:27:21 ...with the play button Oct 09 14:27:27 (I guess I'd screwed up the gst-plugin-pulse install and installed something else instead) Oct 09 14:27:36 make playlist, add file, play Oct 09 14:27:51 Hey, guys. I'm very close to convincing myself to buy a NEO1973, and joining the coding effort. Oct 09 14:28:04 gi-el, I did that.. the position indicatort indicates 001/001 0:00 / 53375.32 ;) Oct 09 14:28:06 xyzzy_bill: do it and make calls work! :) Oct 09 14:28:06 xyzzy_bill: In how much of a hurry are you? Oct 09 14:28:26 The Ubuntu Mobile group currently isn't targetting smartphones. I'm in no hurry... I have another phone. Oct 09 14:28:30 gmaxwell: hm, i had that and that more or less fixed itself Oct 09 14:28:34 gmaxwell: try mp3 file? Oct 09 14:28:36 xyzzy_bill: The GTA02 is not far away now.. Oct 09 14:28:50 gmaxwell: Vorbis playback isn't optimized yet so it'll stutter/lag/whatever Oct 09 14:29:02 CM: Thanks. I can start with emulation, right? Oct 09 14:29:19 xyzzy_bill: Yes, download the makefile and build qemu :) Oct 09 14:29:51 abraxa__, Starting would be good. I'm pretty familar with the libvorbis codebase, though not arm assembly... if I could get it working well enough I'd probably stary optimizing it some! :) Oct 09 14:29:52 xyzzy_bill: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/MokoMakefile Oct 09 14:29:58 CM: Ok, sounds good. Any ETA on the GTA02? Oct 09 14:30:12 xyzzy_bill: 1997 Oct 09 14:30:18 xyzzy_bill: Well, no exact date yet, but around christmas seems likely Oct 09 14:30:35 can you hear sleigh bells? Oct 09 14:30:35 It's still just rumours and extrapolations Oct 09 14:30:47 ScaredyCat: It's snowing already here in Sweden.. Oct 09 14:30:53 gmaxwell: Actually, the bottleneck is gstreamer/pulse, not the decoder itself Oct 09 14:31:18 It would be really good if the software was more generally usable by then.. so if you want to help waiting might not be a great idea. Oct 09 14:32:03 (software seems to mostly work.. but mostly still leaves a big gap. :) ) Oct 09 14:32:03 gmaxwell: I agree, but it depends on what level you want to help Oct 09 14:32:09 CM: Hmmm... I'm not a patient guy, and like hardware toys... Maybe I'll get the Neo1973 now, and the GTA02 for Xmas :-) Oct 09 14:32:10 CM: I thought you were permanently under snow Oct 09 14:32:27 xyzzy_bill: Hehe.. Even better deal! Oct 09 14:32:37 gmaxwell: try to exit/restart mediaplayer after changing playlist. and try the prev/next track buttons Oct 09 14:32:51 CM: Yeah... being a 43-year-old hacker has some benefits... money. Oct 09 14:33:12 xyzzy_bill: And 300 USD isn't bad Oct 09 14:33:28 CM: The wait after ordering however... ;) Oct 09 14:33:32 Or 450 if you want the debugboard. Depends on what you'll work on Oct 09 14:33:49 * CM wishes he had ordered a debugboard Oct 09 14:34:03 CM: dynpart/saveenv didn't help? Oct 09 14:34:17 CM: No, it's not a bad deal. I'm fairly good with hardware and software, but I was thinking of not getting the debug board, and focusing on above-driver-level apps. Oct 09 14:34:25 gmaxwell: tremor works on the arm Oct 09 14:34:59 CM: Would you recommend the debug boar? Oct 09 14:35:07 u_l-lap, a good thing since fp emu would make it useless. ;) Oct 09 14:35:29 gmaxwell: in times of ancient lore digital innovations paid Monty to port Tremor to a very slow fixed point TI DSP, and Tremor became fast enough to use on a 200Mhz ARM then Oct 09 14:35:43 openmoko-mediaplayer is till not good at playing ogg. ogg123 actually does work Oct 09 14:35:50 albeit without being able to play files above 190kbit/sish Oct 09 14:35:59 which given that 160 is transparant most of the time ... Oct 09 14:37:19 okay.. added a second ogg file.. hitting next track now causes it to think that its playing but I don't hear anything (interface clicks are still audiable however) .. getting closer.. Oct 09 14:37:50 u_l-lap, support for higher bitrates isn't important for quality reasons.. it's important so the player can play files randomly found on the internet. :) Oct 09 14:38:15 gmaxwell: aye, but I'm pretty sure there are some physical limits of computational power there Oct 09 14:38:19 gmaxwell: There's nothing you can do to aid that atm Oct 09 14:38:40 gmaxwell: but I don't think it is a *huge* issue since the encoder defaults to ~128 and so random files would more likely than not be around there Oct 09 14:38:51 abraxa_: Didn't have time time to try yesterday, hope I can today Oct 09 14:39:02 CM: Ahh okay. Good luck! Oct 09 14:39:15 u_l-lap, ... far more common than you think, random idiots setting quality to 10. ;) Oct 09 14:39:36 How big are the caches in the cpu in the neo1973? Oct 09 14:39:56 <_diego__> 16k + 16k Oct 09 14:39:59 xyzzy_bill: I thought the same, but sometimes it feels safer to have that board. Oct 09 14:40:05 CM: Ok! The wife just gave me the OK for the Neo1973 (sans dev board) Oct 09 14:40:30 Unless you screw up uboot you'll never need the debugboard Oct 09 14:40:44 xyzzy_bill: lol... Oct 09 14:40:53 I've borked my partition table, but LaF0rge showed me how to fix that Oct 09 14:41:13 Getting out credit card... making purchase... BTW, is there any starving group of developers here to whom $80 is a generous donation that actually counts? Oct 09 14:41:19 hmm I don't know why higher bitrate modes should have any problems. The unrolled codebooks for q10 should fit ... There isn't a lot different at higher bitrates beyond the fact that the hufftree stuff is a bit bigger. Hmm. Oct 09 14:41:43 <_diego__> how can i do screenshot in moko? In the latest build, there is no more "screenshot" in the menu Oct 09 14:41:48 xyzzy_bill: Just a warning, look at the last sentence here why the guy is selling the car: http://www.scan.co.uk/Products/ProductInfo.asp?WebProductID=92518 Oct 09 14:42:01 ;) Oct 09 14:42:42 hm. So no sound out of the mediaplayer with these oggfiles.. but it's busily pretending to play and burning cpu in the process.... I assume the clicks I get when I tap things are also via pulseaudio? Oct 09 14:43:01 CM: That is... wow Oct 09 14:43:07 CM: LOL!!! Yeah, even you have have money, you still need permision :-) Oct 09 14:43:18 gmaxwell: Yes, the clicks from from PulseAudio Oct 09 14:43:30 gmaxwell: try alsactl -f /etc/stereoout.state restore Oct 09 14:43:34 gmaxwell: istr that the issue with the neuros vorbis decoder was the size of the codebooks and the obscenely slow speed that main memory could be accessed at Oct 09 14:44:11 gmaxwell: If you pause playback, wait like ~10 seconds and resume you'll notice that playback *does* happen but the CPU is just way too slow to handle it in real time Oct 09 14:44:24 pulseaudio! Oct 09 14:44:36 xyzzy_bill: Feel free to add yourself is you feel like it: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/P1_Owners Oct 09 14:44:41 u_l-lap, it was but it was running on a cpu with smaller caches that were also also 1 wait state or something. Oct 09 14:45:34 xyzzy_bill: The wiki or here is were the answers are ;) Oct 09 14:45:37 gmaxwell: at the same time it was *only* doing audio decoding and the cache on the phone is going to go to hell once you put the music player in the background Oct 09 14:45:45 Maledictus, ping Oct 09 14:46:10 abraxa_, you were correct.. Oct 09 14:46:30 wee pulse audio using a lot of cpu Oct 09 14:46:35 CM: Well, here's another dumb-ass question... what looks better, the black or white Neo1973? Oct 09 14:46:44 IMHO black Oct 09 14:46:45 xyzzy_bill: black Oct 09 14:46:47 jesus christ Oct 09 14:46:51 why does pulseaudio exist! Oct 09 14:46:53 Black+Silver can't be beat ;) Oct 09 14:47:01 abraxa_: Thanks Oct 09 14:47:06 jack predates it by a good while and is significantly lighterweight and superior in every way Oct 09 14:47:21 u_l-lap: PulseAudio *is* good, just the gstreamer side isn't optimized for embedded Oct 09 14:47:22 xyzzy_bill: I have a black one, but if you plan to get a GTA02, you might want a white GTA01 just because they're more rare ;) Oct 09 14:47:40 abraxa_: my friend was poking about with it and he said it was buggy? Oct 09 14:47:45 I'll probably buy a gta02 too.. If it's in my budget Oct 09 14:47:47 Maledictus, if you are around, i cant seem to get the freebsd src tree to compile with your changes Oct 09 14:47:54 I have the white/orange gta01 and everyone that has seen it says it's ugly. Oct 09 14:47:57 mostly evidinced by it randomly deciding to not work anymore Oct 09 14:47:59 But I like it. :-) Oct 09 14:48:06 ozarka: lol Oct 09 14:48:06 u_l-lap, jack expects applications to tightly conform to its coding model though.. Oct 09 14:48:12 u_l-lap: It can be improved, sure - I myself haven't hit any bugs with it however Oct 09 14:48:23 gmaxwell: that argument could be made about os x coreaudio and no one complains about it Oct 09 14:48:33 In Real Life, it looks more like an ice cream bar than a phone. Oct 09 14:48:47 gmaxwell: and you could write a libserialjack or some lib that spawned off a thread and handled the audio requests in a seemingly serialized manner Oct 09 14:48:49 ozarka: Nice ;) Oct 09 14:48:53 ozarka, spraypaint! Oct 09 14:49:12 Ogg123 works fine. ;) Oct 09 14:49:20 u_l-lap: Context switches are expensive on ARM, though, so threads aren't the best idea imo Oct 09 14:49:24 seems that pulseaudio overhead was the difference between working and not. Oct 09 14:49:40 gmaxwell: It's gstreamer (how often did I say that now?) Oct 09 14:50:02 abraxa_: then an audio server in general is a bad idea :-) Oct 09 14:50:06 abraxa_, but the process name eating cpu is pulseaudio! ;) Oct 09 14:50:54 gmaxwell: Yeah but that's just a side effect ;) Oct 09 14:50:56 abraxa_: you could eliminate the separate threads and use a fancy buffer + signals but that would be a bit hairer to write Oct 09 14:51:45 u_l-lap: Well, somehow mixing has to occur... ALSA+dmix is too slow, EsounD apparently as well... pulse seems to fare the best out of the bunch Oct 09 14:52:01 abraxa_: jack! Oct 09 14:52:01 and jack is entirely floating point.... Oct 09 14:52:08 oh, damn you fp code! Oct 09 14:52:12 lol Oct 09 14:52:43 as jack is quite lightweight Oct 09 14:52:44 one of the reason jack works so well is that it has a single datatype to contend with. Oct 09 14:52:57 I could do 8-10 channel realtime audio work on my old 300Mhz k6 Oct 09 14:53:15 sure.. which has a fpu.. Oct 09 14:53:19 yeah Oct 09 14:53:39 ...and cache :) Oct 09 14:53:46 but still if it were integerized and sacrificed a tiny bit of quality it could probably run on a 266Mhz ARM Oct 09 14:56:44 gmaxwell: it only looks like fp numbers are used for capture Oct 09 14:57:22 u_l-lap, ... all data in jack is floating point. 0_o Oct 09 14:57:40 So.. ogg123 can play a -q10 (400kbit/sec) ogg just file. Oct 09 14:57:46 yay Oct 09 14:57:49 On my GTA01... Oct 09 14:57:54 gmaxwell: How much CPU? Oct 09 14:58:10 oh crap, I forgot aout the internal audio format being 32-bit floating point Oct 09 14:58:23 gmaxwell: are you sure it isn't possible to change the internal audio format? Oct 09 14:58:28 top is saying 80%, though tops readings.. which isn't much higher than a 160kbit/sec ogg. Oct 09 14:58:38 u_l-lap, it wouldn't be jack anymore then would it? ;) Oct 09 14:58:55 u_l-lap, jack takes advantage of the wide dynamic range of floats to prevent overflow. ;) Oct 09 15:00:17 gmaxwell: yeah but it would still be useful as a lightweight audio server if not for pro quality work Oct 09 15:00:52 feh actually.. this other file that I thought was 160kbit/sec is actually ~220kbit/sec.. I told you about these damn random files on the internet. Oct 09 15:01:17 I think vorbis encoders should only allow you to encode at over 160kbit if you beg. Oct 09 15:01:42 --q10 --yes-I-really-want-a-pointlessly-big-file --yes-I-am-aware-of-flac-and-thats-not-what-I-want Oct 09 15:01:44 did anyone ever implement a working vorbis bitrate peeler? Oct 09 15:02:27 u_l-lap, Working yes, kinda, but not of reasonable quality. They psymodel tuning is just too finniky for a peeler to work right. Oct 09 15:02:35 Naah. 220K files are really 160K files, with the 60K being steganographic data. Oct 09 15:03:06 u_l-lap, with the right mode tuning it could be done, but no one is really working on it. Oct 09 15:03:39 gmaxwell: sucks so no progress in the last 2-3 years? Oct 09 15:03:47 * u_l-lap wonders when vorbis II will be finished Oct 09 15:03:56 u_l-lap, I think there are only about a half dozen people in the world who have built a vorbis encoding mode. ... vorbis would really be a lot more impressive if it had the tuning effort behind it that lame has had. Oct 09 15:03:57 or the promised new cdparanoia Oct 09 15:04:33 gmaxwell: istr that during the neuros port monty also realized that vorbis had a lot of crap that needed to be removed so he decided to start in one a slimmed down and improved vorbis II Oct 09 15:04:43 u_l-lap, well the new codec is being worked on. ::shrugs:: Vorbis is more than good enough for its intended applications. Oct 09 15:05:06 The biggest problems with vorbis are ones you can't fix in tunings.. That it requires far too much fast memory. Oct 09 15:05:13 openmoko: 03shoragan * r3125 10/branches/src/target/kernel/2.6.23.x/patches/ (lis302dl.patch series): Oct 09 15:05:13 openmoko: Follow change in 2.6.22: Oct 09 15:05:13 openmoko: (orig r3105): laforge | 2007-10-07 18:54:47 +0200 Oct 09 15:05:13 openmoko: add preliminary lis302 accelerometer input device driver for GTA02 Oct 09 15:06:09 u_l-lap, Pretty much yes. The new codec is intended to solve the the 'needs too much fast memory' problem. Oct 09 15:06:39 A design assumption was made for vorbis that future mobile cpus would have plenty of fast memory but slowish cpus. The trend turned out to be the other way around. Oct 09 15:07:07 oops Oct 09 15:07:14 the crystal ball fails again Oct 09 15:07:52 The design trade off turned out to be just fine for desktop cpus (.. where performance didn't matter anyways). :) Oct 09 15:09:35 gmaxwell: the performance did matter at the time ... I remember when my machine couldn't do vorbis 0.5ish Oct 09 15:09:41 openmoko: 03shoragan * r3126 10/branches/src/target/kernel/2.6.23.x/patches/ (gta02-core.patch smedia-glamo.patch): Oct 09 15:09:41 openmoko: Follow change in 2.6.22: Oct 09 15:09:41 openmoko: (orig r3112): laforge | 2007-10-08 13:26:02 +0200 Oct 09 15:09:41 openmoko: glamo/gta02: The end address of resouces should be minus by one. This patch Oct 09 15:09:41 openmoko: also fixes a typo where glamo-3d uses glamo-2d's resources. (Chia-I Wu) Oct 09 15:09:45 and then I remember having to reencode my entire damn collection a few times Oct 09 15:09:59 good thing my collection wasn't huge back then Oct 09 15:10:18 mhh so we do get a 3d driver Oct 09 15:10:22 u_l-lap: I wish I had done all mine to flac.. Oct 09 15:10:39 * CM has way too many mp3's to ever change format :( Oct 09 15:10:47 most have Oct 09 15:10:50 u_l-lap, Well that was just because the code was almost completely unoptimized prior to .. um beta4 or so. Oct 09 15:10:59 which is why i dont think we'll see much in the line of new audio formats Oct 09 15:11:02 mp3 is good enough Oct 09 15:11:30 buz: mp3 is NOT good enough Oct 09 15:11:31 buz, What if you could get quality comparible to good 128kbit mp3s in 24kbit/s ? :) Oct 09 15:11:31 flac wasn't an option when i did mine.. Oct 09 15:11:39 buz: Yes, it is. Especially for portal players and such Oct 09 15:11:43 buz: play it on a pair of real speakers (e.g. live audio system) and cringe in terror Oct 09 15:11:44 all my cd's are somewhere in the loft... Oct 09 15:11:52 probably covered in spiders Oct 09 15:11:57 u_l-lap: you just dont want 128kbit Oct 09 15:11:57 ScaredyCat: Same here, or my parents attic.. Oct 09 15:12:02 256kbit is more than good enough Oct 09 15:12:03 openmoko: 03shoragan * r3127 10/branches/src/target/kernel/2.6.23.x/patches/smedia-glamo.patch: Oct 09 15:12:03 openmoko: Follow change in 2.6.22: Oct 09 15:12:03 openmoko: (orig r3113): laforge | 2007-10-08 13:28:08 +0200 Oct 09 15:12:03 openmoko: glamo: raise frame rate from 40Hz to 60Hz: DCLK ration is now 2:1 instead of 3:1 (Chia-I Wu) Oct 09 15:12:03 ScaredyCat, if not flac then shorten Oct 09 15:12:07 even 192 sounds good Oct 09 15:12:32 buz: vorbis reaches transparancy on a decent system at around 160 or 192kbit/s whereas mp3 still has artifacts until you hit 320 and even then on music with a large dynamic range you *still* hear distortion Oct 09 15:12:48 yeah or so they say, until you put them in blind test setups Oct 09 15:13:00 maybe not an issue when you're listening on headphones on a computer but I could hear on my live setup Oct 09 15:13:10 I was kind of depressed at how bad 128k vorbis files sounded then Oct 09 15:13:58 maybe i'm a bad example anyhow, as i always push stuff through equalizer anyhow Oct 09 15:14:06 u_l-lap, really all the state of the art encoders (acc, vorbis, lame mp3) are transparent at ~140kbit/sec except for a few bad egg samples. Oct 09 15:14:12 but true enough, i cant stand 128kbit Oct 09 15:14:15 you're both bad examples Oct 09 15:14:22 90% don;t give a fuck Oct 09 15:14:27 exactly Oct 09 15:14:34 which is why mp3 IS good enough Oct 09 15:14:39 u_l-lap, usually a high quality playback rig makes perceptual codecs sound *better* because a low quality rig can violate the perceptual assumptions of the codec. Oct 09 15:15:10 In any case... see what I said above. What if you had good quality in 24kbit/sec? ... many people would care. Oct 09 15:15:19 flash is incredibly cheap now Oct 09 15:15:23 so no, i wouldnt care Oct 09 15:15:31 my 1GB shuffle barely ever is filled Oct 09 15:15:43 you'd still want bigger flash, to get more on it Oct 09 15:15:53 really? Oct 09 15:15:54 buz: People buy 30/40gb hdd based players by the droves. (fruit brand infact) Oct 09 15:16:03 gmaxwell: it didn't for me and my amp has a flat response curve (well, 0.01% THD so not quite) and the speakers were a bit wobbly but no more than +/-3dB between 200Hz and 18kHz Oct 09 15:16:30 none of the existing players can hold my entire collection... Oct 09 15:16:31 * cb22 thinks that at 128kb+ vorbis the speakers on the phone will start limiting your sound quality Oct 09 15:16:35 that's my problem.. Oct 09 15:16:35 u_l-lap, who cares about the speakrs? room behavior totally dominates the system behavior. ;) Oct 09 15:16:45 gmaxwell: curse you ;-)! Oct 09 15:16:49 openmoko: 03shoragan * r3128 10/branches/src/target/kernel/2.6.23.x/patches/ (s3c2410_udc-2440_dual_packet-workaround.patch series): Oct 09 15:16:49 openmoko: Follow changes in 2.6.22: Oct 09 15:16:49 openmoko: (orig r3117): laforge | 2007-10-08 15:40:41 +0200 Oct 09 15:16:49 openmoko: add dual packet workaround to series Oct 09 15:16:49 openmoko: (orig r3116): laforge | 2007-10-08 15:40:11 +0200 Oct 09 15:16:51 openmoko: add patch from werner to work around s3c2440 dual packet mode usb hangs Oct 09 15:16:54 I want the disk space back, and to move the music out Oct 09 15:16:55 in any case mp3 is evil Oct 09 15:17:02 u_l-lap, http://drc-fir.sourceforge.net/ Oct 09 15:17:27 gmaxwell: damn that would have been useful when I did live sound Oct 09 15:17:51 instead I had to fiddle with the equalizer by hand and guess what sounded good as I was too poor for fancy equipment to do it for me Oct 09 15:17:54 gmaxwell: exactly, which is why decent headphones nearly always sound better than even veryexpensive setups Oct 09 15:18:34 In any case, Monty's current project is "ghost", an ambitious codec which intends to be able to deliver acceptable quality at around the 20-30kbit/sec mark, and have low enough latency to use for wideband VoIP. Oct 09 15:18:47 buz, Yep. :) Oct 09 15:18:59 gmaxwell: is that even mathemagically possible? Oct 09 15:19:15 and as for the 30GB fruit players, well i have a 3G one which was outrageously expensive in its day and remain unimpressed ;) Oct 09 15:19:15 u_l-lap, Yes. It's possible.. carefully hand tuned testing indicates as much. Oct 09 15:19:22 damn Oct 09 15:19:47 u_l-lap, may not be engineering-wise possible to achieve.. we'll see. :) Oct 09 15:19:54 if it maxes out a core2 during playing, i sure wont care for it Oct 09 15:20:14 buz, obviously no.. the cpu target is mobile devices. Oct 09 15:20:21 Which is probably the hardest part. ;) Oct 09 15:20:45 gmaxwell: btw I think it might actually be possible to make jack use fixed point audio streams but I'd have to ask las Oct 09 15:21:04 * CM wants a 60GB flash-player Oct 09 15:21:12 gmaxwell: the general jack architecture was built to allow different kind of streams to be routed at least back in the day (and it can do midi now so I imagine the general transport framework is there) Oct 09 15:21:30 CM: anythingbutipod.com Oct 09 15:21:48 next thing i'll buy is likely a zenstone plus Oct 09 15:21:57 why does mokomakefile rune qemu to build packages? Oct 09 15:22:03 nearly as small as the shuffle, but twice as much storage and a display Oct 09 15:22:24 CM: I had a iPhone, which got bricked with the 1.1.1 firmware update. I smashed the thing to pieces in front of the "Genius" at the Apple store. Oct 09 15:22:25 or a cowon player Oct 09 15:22:38 openmoko: 03shoragan * r3129 10/branches/src/target/kernel/2.6.23.x/patches/gta02-core.patch: Oct 09 15:22:38 openmoko: Follow change in 2.6.22: Oct 09 15:22:38 openmoko: (orig r3119): laforge | 2007-10-08 16:49:16 +0200 Oct 09 15:22:38 openmoko: GTA02: add definitions for gsensor GPIO and IRQ Oct 09 15:22:38 openmoko: GTA02: vbus_draw is a void function, not int Oct 09 15:22:54 xyzzy_bill: Hehe.. Way to go! Welcome to OpenMoko ;) Oct 09 15:22:59 xyzzy_bill, You should have filmed the smashing. ;) Oct 09 15:23:16 the iphone doesnt film Oct 09 15:23:20 oh wait a sec.... Oct 09 15:23:40 CM: Thanks... now just gotta wait for the phone... Will look at SW dev in meantime. Oct 09 15:24:10 xyzzy_bill: The easiest way to build everything is using the MokoMakefile Oct 09 15:24:22 It even builds qemu and all other tools you'll need :) Oct 09 15:24:44 * CM bows to rwhitby for making it Oct 09 15:27:18 I love how apple being fucktards makes others able to quote 'user replaceable battery' as a feature Oct 09 15:27:43 openmoko: 03shoragan * r3130 10/branches/src/target/kernel/2.6.23.x/patches/lis302dl.patch: Oct 09 15:27:43 openmoko: Follow change in 2.6.22: Oct 09 15:27:43 openmoko: (orig r3120): laforge | 2007-10-08 16:50:08 +0200 Oct 09 15:27:43 openmoko: use new #defines for gta02 gsensor IRQ and GPIO Oct 09 15:32:06 xyzzy_bill: What happened to your AT&T contract? Oct 09 15:33:32 abraxa_: They gave me a new SIM, which I put into the $20 go-phone I bought from Best Buy. Oct 09 15:33:39 ScaredyCat, The fruitheads have a product with a user replacable battery? :) Oct 09 15:34:34 openmoko: 03shoragan * r3131 10/branches/src/target/kernel/2.6.23.x/patches/ (s3c2410-pwm.patch series): Oct 09 15:34:34 openmoko: Follow change in 2.6.22: Oct 09 15:34:34 openmoko: (orig r3121): laforge | 2007-10-08 18:06:32 +0200 Oct 09 15:34:34 openmoko: Add new S3C2410 PWM core (Javi Roman) Oct 09 15:36:19 Hi Oct 09 15:36:48 who can edit openmoko wiki pages? Oct 09 15:37:13 xyzzy_bill: Ah, so you're still using the contract? Oct 09 15:37:18 muhh: Everyone :) Oct 09 15:37:33 abraxa_ : I don't want to register just for a simple thing. Oct 09 15:37:40 the point is that : http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/OpenMoko:Community_Portal#IRC Oct 09 15:37:42 muhh: What do you want changed? Oct 09 15:37:52 is speaking about this IRC channel. but it's missing the server :-) Oct 09 15:37:58 ohhh Oct 09 15:37:58 I mean there are 100000 irc networks.. Oct 09 15:38:01 Okay Oct 09 15:38:28 it's just "(on irc.freenode.org)" Oct 09 15:38:28 muhh: there are other networks besides freenode? ;-) Oct 09 15:38:33 :D Oct 09 15:39:04 Isn't that one of the commandments? Thou shalt not have any other network or something Oct 09 15:39:13 anyway I came here for a technical quesiton that I haven't seen answered on the site, probably because it's not on the project. Oct 09 15:39:14 :p Oct 09 15:39:20 muhh: Thanks, it's changed now Oct 09 15:39:48 the thing I'm looking for is if the phone can use 2 sim cards at the same time. It shouldn't be that challenging (for me it is) Oct 09 15:40:09 muhh: gaffa tape two phones together Oct 09 15:40:16 I would loove a phone that can listen to 2 cards at the same time. maybe use one at a time, but listen to both. Oct 09 15:40:27 muhh: Actually it is challenging because that would require 2 GSM modems - and thus drain battery faster Oct 09 15:40:34 XorA lol. u don't imagine how it is useful Oct 09 15:40:37 muhh: thats not techincally possible without having two sets of GSM rf kit Oct 09 15:41:02 abraxa_ 2 modems? really? I thought you just need a special modem that is able to use both codes. Oct 09 15:41:29 muhh: but i2c is avable near the battery so you could make an extended back with a SIM switcher driven by i2c so you could press button on GUI and switch SIM Oct 09 15:41:34 * gmaxwell builds a special modem by taking two modems and some glue. ;) Oct 09 15:41:40 because the frequencies should be about the same. it's just the "software" that read the right packets that should be changed. Oct 09 15:42:01 muhh: one sim couild be 1900, another 800 so freqs might not be near Oct 09 15:42:01 muhh: probably not, because each modem has its own identification (IMEI) and each sim has its own identification Oct 09 15:42:22 the provider won't like two sims on one imei Oct 09 15:42:36 that will get phone blocked on some networks Oct 09 15:42:41 you can get sim switchers Oct 09 15:43:31 a Neo SIM switcher would be cool, because we can control it by I2C Oct 09 15:43:53 so basically a modem could connect to just one network. so I need two modem. Oct 09 15:44:24 right Oct 09 15:44:39 well, maybe in the future when batteries will be more powerful and modem less power hungry. I'm sure there are businessmen who would love it. And I'll love it at least to make cheap calls to all my friends in different networks. Oct 09 15:45:00 it might be possible to buy a cheap phone and enslave it over bluetooth. something like that is already requested in the wiki Oct 09 15:45:07 muhh: GSM can support multiple lines on multiple contracts, just wake the providers up Oct 09 15:45:12 openmoko: 03shoragan * r3132 10/branches/src/target/kernel/2.6.23.x/patches/s3c2410-pwm.patch: Update s3c2410-pwm.patch to apply on 2.6.23-rc9 Oct 09 15:46:32 providers will never change. they don't want to waste money. that's because of interconnection rates. if I pay just a few cents per hour on my network, I'll pay the same amount per MINUTE when connect to another network. if I have a sim of the other network I'll spend less. and networks don't like that. Oct 09 15:46:33 muhh: you'll have to have a second modem (== phone) anyways, so just take a full blown phone, establish bluetooth connection and just keep it somewhere near your neo (e.g. in your backpack) Oct 09 15:47:17 muhh: I pay the same no matter what network I phone Oct 09 15:47:33 XorA: not here. the prices are very different. Oct 09 15:49:01 Maybe in the future it could be agood idea to have this kind of option on the phone. I'm sure that the advances in thecnology will allow to develop this kind of phone. For sure Nokia & Co will *never* do that because they are in some way controlled by providers. Oct 09 15:49:03 vodafone ireland support two contracts on a single sim - one prepay, one postpay Oct 09 15:49:17 two contract with the same company that's ok for them. Oct 09 15:50:30 here (.ch) for example you have sunrise = 30cents per hour on sunrise or landline. Swisscom 40cents/hour on swisscome/landline. both network change hour with minutes if you phone to the other company's mobile network. Oct 09 15:50:48 It's a fundamental packing and price problem. Oct 09 15:51:06 yeah. price problem = you can't solve it. Oct 09 15:51:09 Currently there are no chipsets to do 'two phone' mode cheaper than 2*one phone Oct 09 15:51:14 And easier Oct 09 15:51:25 there are dual sim adaptors, but they're very kludgey Oct 09 15:51:29 So you have basically two complete phone chipsets and attendant hardware in the phone. Oct 09 15:51:47 (power cycle the phone to switch sims) Oct 09 15:51:47 Dual SIM adaptors are a tiny part of the problem - you can't logon to multiple nets with them Oct 09 15:51:57 * Kero thwaps around openmoko/flash.sh for using the wrong "most_recent" image *once again* Oct 09 15:52:24 it could be reallistically built a phone with 2 sim/modem inside. just a single hardware that check both. I mean, if I check the space occupied by an iPhone I can put 2 nokia 3310 on that space. :D Oct 09 15:52:24 openmoko: 03laforge * r3133 10/trunk/src/target/kernel/patches/ (gta02-core.patch pcf50633.patch): Oct 09 15:52:24 openmoko: * export all pcf50633 symbols as _GPL symbols. Oct 09 15:52:24 openmoko: * replace pcf50633_gpo0_{get,set} with generic pcf50633_gpio_{get,set} Oct 09 15:52:24 openmoko: * complete GTA02 >= v2 GSM power switching support (based on patch by jserv) Oct 09 15:53:54 cb22: pong. I think you mean the stuff from the wiki? Oct 09 15:54:57 Maledictus, yeah Oct 09 15:55:29 Andrew Turner wrote it. I just used it under a -current where it did work Oct 09 15:55:43 have you set TARGET=arm and TARGET_ARCH=arm? Oct 09 15:55:54 yep, i followed the instructions on the wiki Oct 09 15:55:56 on 6.2-stable Oct 09 15:56:13 hmm, don't know if anyone tried that Oct 09 15:56:25 -current only? Oct 09 15:56:29 There have been a lot of arm work in current Oct 09 15:56:35 so I think its current only :) Oct 09 15:56:45 ok, i'll just cvsup a -current tree down Oct 09 15:56:51 ty for all the work :) Oct 09 15:57:02 np :) Oct 09 15:57:17 the more I think about this phone the more excited I get Oct 09 15:57:50 Are there any news on the gps front that I missed? especially is the blob still needed for gta02? Oct 09 15:58:03 mstevens_, +1 Oct 09 15:58:09 Maledictus, not really Oct 09 15:58:16 AFAIK they are looking at another chipset Oct 09 15:58:26 one that speaks NMEA Oct 09 15:58:39 hmm, that would be very late if they want to ship em in december Oct 09 15:58:47 s/are/were/ Oct 09 15:58:55 on the downside, still can't make calls Oct 09 15:58:57 ah. any public info? Oct 09 15:59:01 nope Oct 09 15:59:09 just memory from irc Oct 09 15:59:21 maybe roh has some more info Oct 09 15:59:52 as far as i am informed it is still not finally decided what gps goes into gta02, at least not publically Oct 09 16:00:07 The latest was that they were evaluating AGPS chipsets on candidate hardware. Oct 09 16:00:17 ok. that's K.O. criteria for me :) Oct 09 16:00:49 I have to think that a decision must have been made by now for it to be saleable by December. Oct 09 16:01:07 yep Oct 09 16:02:19 There will be no end user release by september. Oct 09 16:02:32 but yeah, the hardware is about to be final in 1 month Oct 09 16:02:41 eh? Oct 09 16:02:49 we're in October already... Oct 09 16:02:58 s/september/december/ Oct 09 16:03:03 if it was going t be available in September, it missed Oct 09 16:03:03 there have been samples with both gps chipsets that are being considered Oct 09 16:03:21 yes, but that's old news Oct 09 16:03:23 which are? Oct 09 16:03:38 hammerhead and some other Oct 09 16:04:10 * ScaredyCat points to the ml Oct 09 16:04:16 hammerhead is the current oneß Oct 09 16:04:17 ? Oct 09 16:04:28 yes Oct 09 16:04:56 okay, I need to persuade NetworkManager that plugging in an openmoko is NOT a signal to go "ooh, a new ethernet port, I must disconnect you from the internet and use this new connection" Oct 09 16:05:00 maybe it is a sirf the other? Oct 09 16:05:12 mstevens: yes, that's annoying :) Oct 09 16:05:22 mstevens: good luck, that bug has been in NM bugftracker for 2 years Oct 09 16:05:51 XorA: alternatively, I could just switch back to my desktop :) Oct 09 16:06:14 you can fix it if you're using opensuse Oct 09 16:06:28 ubuntu Oct 09 16:06:38 well... Oct 09 16:06:51 Funny.. I came here to find out a bit more about gta02, and the topic killed my hopes :) Oct 09 16:06:58 mstevens yea same bug here - at least when plugging in the ethernet port again - ubuntu Oct 09 16:07:20 xatax: at least you read it, many people don't ;) Oct 09 16:07:22 on my desktop I don't use NM so it'll be fine Oct 09 16:07:25 that's because networkmanager is mostly useless when you really want to use the linux networking stack Oct 09 16:07:35 i have 4 interfaces up, most of the time Oct 09 16:07:54 it's a lot more useful if you're using a laptop Oct 09 16:07:55 mstevens anyway it sucks in kombination with ifup and ifdown - i hate it Oct 09 16:08:01 ScaredyCat: is it? Oct 09 16:08:02 Configure the usb0 device manually, NetworkMananger should ignore it... Oct 09 16:08:04 I just use debian' Oct 09 16:08:06 s network stuff Oct 09 16:08:06 Henryk: it usually works on a laptop where you just want "grab the first network you can find", but beyond that... Oct 09 16:08:07 * mjr wonders if the topic actually means not to ask about gta02 availability (though to be sure, one would best read the wiki before asking about features also) Oct 09 16:08:09 ell, yes Oct 09 16:08:14 I have no trouble here with NetworkManager on Ubuntu Oct 09 16:08:22 life works out well I have multiple eth0 configs for when I am on my home network or out and aboot and need dhcp Oct 09 16:08:33 then again I'm a fan of using emacs for configurating things Oct 09 16:08:37 mjr: thats actualy the point.. wiki seems a bit .. confused :) Oct 09 16:08:45 why back in my day all we had were text files and we enjoyed it Oct 09 16:08:47 i.e. some pages talk about october 2007 :) Oct 09 16:08:48 * mstevens is downloading a tqtopia snapshot Oct 09 16:09:13 Dec 2007 is at earliest it will be available Oct 09 16:09:29 xatax, yeah well, that's an availability issue, which, as noted, is a dead horse, though you're welcome to fix the wiki :] Oct 09 16:09:49 wikis collect misinforation by design Oct 09 16:10:07 Ok.. My biggest question is actually, if i buy the gta01.. will the future software run on it? Or will the future software take heaps of advantage from the GPU etc, and support for gta01 will be scrapped? Oct 09 16:10:10 XorA: didn't we just get december as a no no from Henryk? Oct 09 16:10:23 It's opensource. Oct 09 16:10:35 xatax: mickeyl said the 01 will be supported into the future Oct 09 16:10:39 So if it's supported, at worst, you can fork it. Oct 09 16:10:41 ScaredyCat: as a end user no Oct 09 16:10:45 but yeah, the hardware is about to be final in 1 month Oct 09 16:11:21 gpu eyecandy better be optional on the gta02 also... :] Oct 09 16:11:30 I sooo wish i could go into the future, and get the hardware today :P then fork the software to work :) Oct 09 16:11:33 Henryk: are you saying that december won't be hit? Oct 09 16:11:35 we're not nokia *cough* Oct 09 16:11:39 oh we knew that Henryk - we've been taking bets on that since july Oct 09 16:11:47 * mjr gives mickeyl some cough syrup Oct 09 16:11:54 i'm commited to support gta01 as long as the hardware runs Oct 09 16:11:58 heh Oct 09 16:12:03 mickeyl, that's good to know Oct 09 16:12:08 so until the last one dies? Oct 09 16:12:15 the last one i own ;) Oct 09 16:12:15 mickeyl: good thing you made shoddy hardware so they only last a month eh!!!! :-D Oct 09 16:12:21 hahaha Oct 09 16:12:21 did package libmatchbox get ditched? replaced by? matchbox-wm can not find libmb ... Oct 09 16:12:21 right Oct 09 16:12:29 or have you built in a "die in 1 year" ;) Oct 09 16:12:34 my gta01 sleeps in an oxygen tent for longevity Oct 09 16:12:35 Plus there are a lot of GTA01s out there..if no one here supports them someone will. Oct 09 16:12:52 There is support, and support. Oct 09 16:12:53 trolltech... Oct 09 16:12:57 * ScaredyCat hides Oct 09 16:13:05 well optionally mickeyl can always just accidentally drop the gta01 to get rid of the supporting promise :) Oct 09 16:13:08 * XorA sees food time approaching fast Oct 09 16:13:28 mjr: I expect an oxygen tent would be anti-longevity. Oct 09 16:13:36 mjr: bath of ln2.... Oct 09 16:13:52 For example, there was lots of interest in reverse engineering GTA01s GPS, when it was supposed to be going into GTA02 too. Now that there is a possibility that there will only be several thousand chips with the GPS chipset, it's gotten pushed down many peoples stacks. Oct 09 16:14:10 s/chips/phones/ Oct 09 16:14:11 SpeedEvil meant: For example, there was lots of interest in reverse engineering GTA01s GPS, when it was supposed to be going into GTA02 too. Now that there is a possibility that there will only be several thousand phones with the GPS chipset, it's gotten pushed down many ... Oct 09 16:14:17 gmaxwell, damn. Now I need to treat it with homeopathic remedies, ie. lots of water Oct 09 16:14:22 * ScaredyCat mutters about a 'very soon' for gps... Oct 09 16:14:41 mjr, so long as it's deionized water.... ;) Oct 09 16:15:01 break unless self.insurance.valid? Oct 09 16:15:09 gmaxwell, it's wearing a magnetic collar for that! Oct 09 16:15:10 * ScaredyCat wonders if this dvd is the slowest ever to burn Oct 09 16:16:03 apt: lack of working gps has bummed me out: I'm working on a location aware wikipedia data driven mapping application. :( Oct 09 16:16:07 http://excds.ath.cx/fun/images/warranty_void.png Oct 09 16:16:17 ;) Oct 09 16:16:39 hehe Oct 09 16:17:28 gmaxwell: what do you mean by that? Oct 09 16:17:31 shame it's not a doctored image Oct 09 16:18:05 <|R> hahaha Oct 09 16:19:08 viq: Seal clubbing is not funny Oct 09 16:20:34 I'd expect it to be $7.80 at 1K Oct 09 16:20:35 * ScaredyCat agrees Oct 09 16:20:36 oops Oct 09 16:20:46 Except of course "Seal" is the name of a club you go to dance to Oct 09 16:21:11 that's Seal not seal... Oct 09 16:22:58 Hmmz.. so i quess my next phone wont be openmoko after all :( Oct 09 16:23:30 depends when you buy your next phone Oct 09 16:24:10 or how long you are willing to continue using your old phone Oct 09 16:24:28 well.. its not how long am i willing to use it, rather how long will it last :) Oct 09 16:24:51 you can always get a cheap 20 phone to last you... ;) Oct 09 16:26:13 naah i think i'll go with the HP 514 voice messenger until openmoko is a bit more mature Oct 09 16:26:25 seems like a good strategy to keep some simple phone and have openmoko as a second, smart phone Oct 09 16:26:40 PS: is there any.. mm.. emulator variant to test the software? Oct 09 16:27:01 sure, qemu Oct 09 16:27:22 xatax: Tuukkah's suggestion is what I'm doing... I got the $20 go-phone for regular voice, and I'll hack the Neo for smart phone. Oct 09 16:28:58 xatax: I'm a total newbie (1 hr of experience so far), but install just seemed to go OK. Oct 09 16:29:11 naah.. not good enough at the moment.. i think ill rather wait for the gta02 hardware Oct 09 16:29:13 i want wifi :P Oct 09 16:29:26 and faster cpu comes always in handy Oct 09 16:29:40 xatax: Yeah, I agree. I suspect I'll get another phone with gta02 comes out Oct 09 16:29:53 i aint that rich :P Oct 09 16:29:56 xatax: 256meg program memory will also be handy, I suspect. Oct 09 16:30:28 xyzzy_bill, So there is no confusion, thats 256MB flash Oct 09 16:32:00 gmaxwell: correct. Is the 64meg flash in neo1973 currently much of a problem Oct 09 16:32:22 yes, it's starting to be, after the switch to 2007.2 and glibcs Oct 09 16:32:27 s/bcs/bc/ Oct 09 16:32:27 Henryk meant: yes, it's starting to be, after the switch to 2007.2 and glibc Oct 09 16:33:31 * mjr is good as long as one can supplement with microsd Oct 09 16:33:46 with a lot of python crap installed, the internal nand _is_ a bit cramped Oct 09 16:33:58 yeah, and then you install mono and java :) Oct 09 16:39:15 mjr: Can we supplement with microsd? Oct 09 16:39:37 yes. Oct 09 16:39:38 yeah, you can install packages under the card root Oct 09 16:39:45 xyzzy_bill, Speaking from my zaurus expirence having operating system files on removable media is sucky. Oct 09 16:39:53 The problem is the core software should ideally not takeup more than onboard memory Oct 09 16:40:03 Leaving 5M or so free for user data. Oct 09 16:40:06 core shouldn't, quite agree Oct 09 16:40:11 Otherwise, you can't change the card. Oct 09 16:40:32 said python, mono and java crap, on the other hand... Oct 09 16:40:40 SpeedEvil, unless you dupe those files on all your cards... you've got to shut it off to change the cards anyways.. still not very user friendly. Oct 09 16:42:39 Yes, of course. Oct 09 16:42:59 But, having large sets of applications break when you do that is bad. Oct 09 16:43:16 Well, I thought I'd just get one big card (4 or 8 gig), and never replace it. Oct 09 16:43:17 micro sd is about as easily replacable as a laptop harddrive ;) Oct 09 16:43:58 What is taking up so much space in OM btw, qtopia is around 30mb and OM 43 or so Oct 09 16:44:03 you don't need a screwdriver though Oct 09 16:45:08 but most need a guitar pick Oct 09 16:45:19 yea.. hehe having to remove the sim to get to it is .. well it's a cute arrangement. ;) Oct 09 16:45:34 I didn't think 8gByte micro-sd was available yet. Oct 09 16:45:41 we used to call "wrong" not cute Oct 09 16:46:31 actually its a good idea if you intend to actually use it as a primary drive Oct 09 16:46:38 will the gta02 be running everything as root too? Oct 09 16:46:58 gamin: mine certainly won't Oct 09 16:47:31 actually it is more an openmoko question... Oct 09 16:47:35 gmaxwell, a local store here currently guestimates they'll stock 8 giggers early next month, though it's not maximally reliable Oct 09 16:47:59 anyway, not right now, but soonish Oct 09 16:48:15 gamin: far more important things first Oct 09 16:48:40 Writchie: like gsmd working? ;-p Oct 09 16:51:31 ooh, qtopia lets me get network... Oct 09 16:51:58 mstevens, You can't get on the network from the OM image?? Oct 09 16:52:06 gmaxwell: no Oct 09 16:52:19 mjr: did they have an estimate, how much does eight gigs cost? Oct 09 16:52:30 still can't make calls though Oct 09 16:52:54 mstevens, Oh I didn't have any problems networking to the OM image. It just has a static IP set... Oct 09 16:53:12 ip network or gsm network ?-) Oct 09 16:53:16 gsm network Oct 09 16:53:21 duh. okay sorry. :) Oct 09 16:53:31 well, both should be working already Oct 09 16:53:41 making calls, even :-) Oct 09 16:53:46 I was able to SMS from qtopia. :) Couldn't call though. Oct 09 16:57:26 guaqua, 100 € Oct 09 16:58:13 60 for 6 GB Oct 09 16:58:16 I have some problems with my own openmoko mirror. I downloaded my http://gstaedtner.net/openmoko/thomasg.conf to /etc/ipkg/ on the neo like everytime, but when I try to install a package from my mirror it doesn't resolve the dependencies. mostly this are files starting with lib... all the necessary deps are in the Packages files. any ideas? Oct 09 16:58:36 thomasg: you did ipkg update, right? Oct 09 16:58:42 Henryk: yes, I did Oct 09 16:58:51 I fail at qtopia Oct 09 16:59:30 hmm, no idea Oct 09 17:00:19 the config should be correct, the files are on the mirror, the packages files are ok (I guess). I have really no clue what's wrong Oct 09 17:01:12 thomasg: oh, all the existing files end in -feed.conf. could that be required? i don't know ipkg enough Oct 09 17:03:13 hm, don't know. but the packages I try to install are found - but the dependencies do not get resolved Oct 09 17:03:44 thomasg: deps should be on packages, not on files. (but maybe I misread you) Oct 09 17:04:36 Kero: that's right, but to get them resolved, they must have an entry in the "Packages"-file Oct 09 17:05:06 myeah, you mirror, you don't create your own ipkgs Oct 09 17:05:51 openmoko: 03shoragan * r3134 10/branches/src/target/kernel/2.6.23.x/patches/s3c2410-pwm.patch: Update include regs-timer.h from plat-s3c Oct 09 17:06:32 openmoko: 03shoragan * r3135 10/branches/src/target/kernel/2.6.23.x/patches/ (gta02-leds.patch series): Add support for leds on gta02 Oct 09 17:06:46 thomasg: one src/gz per file? just a thought, I do not really expect that to work Oct 09 17:07:40 yeah, the pre-existing feeds have one line per file Oct 09 17:08:35 what exactly do you mean? Oct 09 17:09:45 Does somebody know a good document which describes the properties and differences of different sim-card series? Oct 09 17:12:16 you have three lines in http://gstaedtner.net/openmoko/thomasg.conf Oct 09 17:16:09 How long does make openmoko-devel-image take to run? Oct 09 17:16:33 I'm only asking because after 30min, it says "NOTE: Running task 139 of 4837" Oct 09 17:16:47 xyzzy_bill: expect something along the line of 8 to 12 hours Oct 09 17:16:57 ok, leaving now for dinner, bye Oct 09 17:17:07 Seriously? Cripes! Oct 09 17:17:10 xyzzy_bill: Where are the instructions for setting up the crosscompile enviroment? Oct 09 17:17:33 I'll see how fast an 8 core xeon box with oddles of ram can do it.. ;) Oct 09 17:17:36 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/MokoMakefile Oct 09 17:17:45 xyzzy_bill: What kind of comp do you have? Oct 09 17:18:10 I think roh said it took around 6h to build on his, and that's the fastest I've heard Oct 09 17:18:26 CM: It's a rockin 2GHz Core Duo Dell Insprion 9400. However, I am doing a step that probably isn't needed. Oct 09 17:18:39 CM: I'm doing the "Updating the environment" sectiono Oct 09 17:18:51 Kero: yes, what's wrong about that? Oct 09 17:19:17 xyzzy_bill: you'll profit from adding -j4 to the gcc flags Oct 09 17:19:47 Guaqua: Yes, I read that. Shouldn't I use -j2 instead (its a Core Duo) Oct 09 17:20:14 hi Oct 09 17:20:18 -j4 might be faster... Oct 09 17:20:21 use -j2 on single-core Oct 09 17:20:31 my core2quad takes about 2.5 hours for a bitbake openmoko-devel-image from scratch (-j5) Oct 09 17:20:33 it's about processes and how the scheduler handles threading Oct 09 17:21:12 guaqua, also the io-bound vs. cpu-bound stages Oct 09 17:21:13 xyzzy_bill: To have ENABLE_BINARY_LOCALE_GENERATION = "0" in my build/conf/local.conf saves me about 1h on glibc Oct 09 17:21:26 openmoko: 03laforge * r3136 10/trunk/src/target/kernel/patches/ (gta02-core.patch pcf50633.patch): GTA02: implement USB battery charging control using pcf50633 Oct 09 17:21:37 thomasg: Wow, that's quick :D Oct 09 17:21:50 thomasg: nothing, I think. I only notice a single line per /etc/ipkg/*feed.conf Oct 09 17:21:50 tuukkah: true Oct 09 17:22:45 CM: Thanks. So, in total, I'm adding: ENABLE_BINARY_LOCALE_GENERATION = "0" Oct 09 17:22:46 PARALLEL_MAKE = "-j 4" Oct 09 17:22:46 BB_NUMBER_THREADS = "4" Oct 09 17:23:07 To the same file, (build/conf/local.conf)? Oct 09 17:25:03 openmoko: 03laforge * r3137 10/trunk/src/target/kernel/patches/ (gta01-backlight.patch gta01-vibrator.patch): Oct 09 17:25:03 openmoko: Modify GTA01 vibrator and backlight driver to work on top of new s3c2410 generic pwm code Oct 09 17:25:03 openmoko: WARNING: this is untested and mainly just committed so shoragan can resolve Oct 09 17:25:03 openmoko: conflicts with his 2.6.23 work. Oct 09 17:25:05 openmoko: If you're bumping OE's srcrev for the kernel beyond this commit, please make sure that Oct 09 17:25:07 openmoko: the vibrator and backlight control has been tested on GTA01Bv4! Oct 09 17:25:36 Noodly be his name. Oct 09 17:25:48 xyzzy_bill: Yes :) Oct 09 17:27:35 Here's a super-lame question: What IRC client do you guys tend to prefer? I'm using GAIM, but having trouble with the sound. Oct 09 17:27:54 I use xchat. Oct 09 17:28:39 gmaxwell: Thanks, I'll try it out. Oct 09 17:32:30 sound ? Oct 09 17:32:40 in irc ! Oct 09 17:32:43 n00b Oct 09 17:33:45 Hehe Oct 09 17:33:58 xyzzy_bill: I like irssi a lot Oct 09 17:34:28 irssi and screen on some remote server is hard to beat Oct 09 17:34:46 s/hard/impossible Oct 09 17:35:13 guaqua: I've been using it for 5 years or so, and still not found anything better Oct 09 17:35:13 Especially if you add to the combo bitlbee, and maybe some plugins, for example for SILC ;) Oct 09 17:35:26 CM: several years here :) Oct 09 17:41:41 BitchX has a better name though ;) Oct 09 17:44:16 Guess the ROAD S101 isn't complete vapourware after all: http://blog.haerwu.biz/2007/10/09/oedem-2007-day-4/ Oct 09 17:49:08 CM: I'll believe it if I see it :) Oct 09 17:49:25 I guess it was 3 years ago, when I first heard about it Oct 09 17:49:50 and 2 years ago when they said it would cost more than 1500USD Oct 09 17:50:19 thomasg: Well, we can hope FIC steals the design and adds a better lcd ;) Oct 09 17:50:47 hehe Oct 09 17:50:58 I don't really like the design, but I love the keyboard-design Oct 09 17:51:37 but the display is OK, my nokia 7710 has the same resolution and size Oct 09 17:51:58 It was mainly the keyboard I was thinking of too Oct 09 17:51:58 They sure need to do some graphics design to get this thing out the door... Oct 09 17:54:00 yes, the UI is really ugly Oct 09 17:54:36 the nokia 7710 has a nice UI (imho), but its extremely slow :( Oct 09 18:01:44 abraxa_: I can't connect to my neo with minicom.. :( Oct 09 18:01:46 i like the lcars UI for it. feels much more technical. Oct 09 18:01:56 its also much easier on the eyes. Oct 09 18:02:33 that looks like a nice device.. Oct 09 18:02:55 juri_: you mean for the 770 ? not the 7710 ? Oct 09 18:03:06 (road s101 looks nice I mean) Oct 09 18:04:42 ScaredyCat: there's also a lcars theme for the 7710 Oct 09 18:04:49 * ScaredyCat just gave the wife my P910i ... she'll hate me for it, but here 6310 is just dying :/ Oct 09 18:05:03 s/here/her/ Oct 09 18:05:17 she can be glad, that it's a p910i and not a p990i :) Oct 09 18:05:22 ahh.. not as trekkie as a 770 with it though Oct 09 18:05:33 why? Oct 09 18:05:36 yeah, i hear the 990i is a sack of shit Oct 09 18:05:47 they 7710 is pretty trekkie :) Oct 09 18:06:21 but of course it's not as black and shaped as the original communicator Oct 09 18:06:43 scaredy: yepyep. Oct 09 18:06:50 whats the 7710? a phone? :P Oct 09 18:06:54 yes Oct 09 18:06:57 who needs that? :) Oct 09 18:07:03 basically the 770 in small + phone :) Oct 09 18:07:10 and with symbian instead of linux Oct 09 18:07:14 if my laptop went any slower I think I'd start travelling back in time Oct 09 18:07:17 ah. pointless. :) Oct 09 18:07:37 I'd like to see openmoko on it :) Oct 09 18:07:48 bit the 200 mhz ARM would be way to slow Oct 09 18:07:50 *but Oct 09 18:09:42 openmoko needs more devs. i'd like to be one, but i've already got so *many* projects... Oct 09 18:10:02 openmosix.. xrdp.. qemu.. fai.. my mini-distros.. now wifidog... Oct 09 18:10:11 * juri_ is overloaded. HELP! Oct 09 18:10:51 i just don't know when to put a project down... GNU GIFT, trac... Oct 09 18:11:21 a set of video cam drivers.. a wifi driver... Oct 09 18:11:29 tintin++... Oct 09 18:12:48 Ah, mud.. :D Oct 09 18:13:14 cm: i don't mud. i used it to run the walmart network. :) Oct 09 18:13:32 * juri_ is $TINTIN_SRC/mods/juri Oct 09 18:14:15 Heh, ok. Oct 09 18:20:15 what's with this build failure on webkit for last few days? Oct 09 18:20:33 when I removed some files it builded fine... Oct 09 18:21:11 ok i'll try a make clean Oct 09 18:23:06 Writchie: Oct 09 18:23:08 Wait Oct 09 18:23:29 Writchie: Wich error? Is it the i18n or the main.cpp error? Oct 09 18:23:48 standby Oct 09 18:24:17 CM: main Oct 09 18:24:24 Ok, then do bitbake -c rebuild qmake2-native icu; bitbake -c rebuild webkit-gtk Oct 09 18:24:37 No need to rebuild everything :) Oct 09 18:24:55 CM: tx Oct 09 18:25:12 I don't know why that works, but zecke told me to do it and it fixed the build for me :) Oct 09 18:30:10 Hi. I literally just received my Neo1973 and I'm at a loss as to which image I should be flashing it with.... Oct 09 18:30:21 "personal effects: One yellow metal ring intact on left ring finger, one dildo" Oct 09 18:30:24 oops Oct 09 18:30:26 mischan Oct 09 18:30:34 hahahah Oct 09 18:30:42 http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2007/1008072scuba1.html Oct 09 18:30:50 (mostly worksafe) Oct 09 18:31:06 um. so "brand new neo" Oct 09 18:31:51 SpeedEvil: another darwin candidate methinks Oct 09 18:32:02 yep. Oct 09 18:32:18 guri, No image will magically work as a normal phone yet.. So you're probably best off running the lastest image available. Oct 09 18:32:42 guri: I'm running a build from today right now Oct 09 18:33:05 gmaxwell, thank you. yes, I kind of got that far, I was just wondering as I need to match Kernel and FS versions yes? Oct 09 18:33:18 it's not an issue now. Oct 09 18:33:22 guri: No guarantees of anything since I built it myself, and "works for me is all I can say about it" Oct 09 18:33:44 guri: http://claesmogren.com/~cm/neo/2007.2/ Oct 09 18:33:50 * SpeedEvil needs to upgrade. Oct 09 18:33:54 I'm running OpenMoko-qtopia-image-glibc-ipk-P1-September-Snapshot-20071007-fic-gta01.rootfs.jffs2 + svnr2937-r3-fic-gta01.bin Oct 09 18:33:59 i'm not after a working fone. this is a personal quest :) Oct 09 18:34:18 then this is the right place ;) Oct 09 18:34:24 guri: Then build your own with the makefile.. ;) Oct 09 18:34:38 I work for France Telecom in Device Management, but am so bogged down with Powerpoint these days that I lose all my tech skillzors Oct 09 18:34:39 Geeze... I'm in total geek land.... yes! Oct 09 18:34:52 But maybe fun to flash some new image first to have something to play with for the next 8h or so Oct 09 18:34:59 I have an image running in QEMU as per instructions....just don't want to brick my phone Oct 09 18:35:07 having psent 300 odd pounds on it Oct 09 18:35:11 you won't brick the phone flashing kernel and root fs. Oct 09 18:35:17 guri: As long as you don't touch u-boot there's no danger at all Oct 09 18:35:22 Only bricking risk is with the u-boot. Oct 09 18:35:30 cool. that was what was freaking me out Oct 09 18:35:32 not true Oct 09 18:35:33 And there is no need to flash uboot on current phones. Oct 09 18:35:38 beware nand erase Oct 09 18:35:39 Stick to dfu-util -a 3 and 5 ;) Oct 09 18:36:02 now to see if this Ubuntu install is working with USB Oct 09 18:36:20 guri: all but dfu-util works Oct 09 18:36:23 guri: And don't touch the uboot env either (I messed up my partition table doing that) Oct 09 18:36:37 guri: mybad - in virtual machines that is. Oct 09 18:36:45 guri: all works on real hardware Oct 09 18:37:07 Writchie, thanks. will give it a go in a bit.....now to get my daughter to go to bed so I can mess Oct 09 18:37:32 guri, shame, let your daughter stay awake Oct 09 18:37:42 I will definitely be back! This is the most helpful channel ever Oct 09 18:38:07 okay, why does make openmoko-devel-image fail randomly?!@# Oct 09 18:38:20 gmaxwell: To build or to boot? Oct 09 18:38:23 build Oct 09 18:38:27 gmaxwell, have you made the sacrifice and prayed to the gods twice? Oct 09 18:38:31 Usually webkit breaks Oct 09 18:38:48 once I get something up. Thanks again! Oct 09 18:38:50 Writchie: Why beware nand erase? Oct 09 18:38:50 it's failing at random points when I run it again it gets a bit further and fails someplace else. :) Oct 09 18:39:00 I thought it was necessary? Oct 09 18:39:06 it will do exactly that to the entire flash including u-boot Oct 09 18:39:13 ozarka: Remeber all arguments Oct 09 18:39:27 so nand erase rootfs is OK Oct 09 18:39:36 ozarka: yes Oct 09 18:39:39 but nand erase no args gives me a brick? Oct 09 18:39:43 Yes, but it's not needed any more with newer u-boots Oct 09 18:39:47 u got it Oct 09 18:40:07 you need to do it right to get your newer u-boot Oct 09 18:40:12 How do I know how newer my uboot is? Oct 09 18:40:30 (I haven't updated it since I got the device in Aug) Oct 09 18:40:41 it has the version if you hold Aux and power on Oct 09 18:40:52 then you need to do the nand erase rootfs Oct 09 18:40:59 IIRC Oct 09 18:41:00 we got a neo that had a uboot dated from may Oct 09 18:41:17 What is the last known safe version of uboot? Oct 09 18:41:20 i dont think youneed to nande erare rootfs if you flash a new uboot Oct 09 18:41:42 I'm still using the one that came with the 2007.08 release Oct 09 18:41:46 i flashed yesterdays, from scaredycats feed Oct 09 18:41:52 I'm scared to flash my uboot. Oct 09 18:42:06 ljp: you flashed a new u-boot from the feed? Oct 09 18:42:08 ozarka, where are you? Oct 09 18:42:15 Dallas, TX. Oct 09 18:42:31 i'm sure there must be one person in your area with a debug board Oct 09 18:42:33 Writchie: yes Oct 09 18:42:44 ozarka: I did flash a bad uboot once, and that destroyed my uboot_env and it's been trouble ever since. (Don't have a debugboard) Oct 09 18:43:16 * CM packs for going to Poland Oct 09 18:43:29 actually, flashed 3 neos wth the same uboot Oct 09 18:43:33 with the lack of build stability here i'd be reluctantly to flash a u-boot or use a dfu-util not confirmed as working Oct 09 18:44:08 Writchie, maybe trying them out in qemu Oct 09 18:44:12 that is without a debug board handy Oct 09 18:44:20 Now I have to be scared of dfu-util! Oct 09 18:44:34 this one worked for me-> u-boot-gta01bv4-1.2.0+git3e66c078003607a7d1d214c15a5f262bc1b4032f+svn20070829-r2.bin Oct 09 18:44:38 ozarka, shouldv'e waited for a 02 :) Oct 09 18:44:49 they have some anti brick not writable nor flash on them Oct 09 18:45:07 ljp: Does that one have the usb-console on by default when you start with aux? Oct 09 18:45:11 Yeah, but I wanted to be the first kid on my block with a Neo. :-) Oct 09 18:45:24 ljp: I need it to rebuild my uboot_env partition table.. Oct 09 18:45:25 u-boot images should be handled like the bios on your PC Oct 09 18:45:57 CM: has 'Set console to USB' if thats what you mean. Oct 09 18:46:08 ljp: As a default option? Oct 09 18:46:13 yes Oct 09 18:46:18 dont know if it works Oct 09 18:46:28 Ah, great.. The one I have now only have Boot and Factory reset Oct 09 18:47:02 Man. We are so gonna 0wn those fruity phone bastards. We even had bricking before them! Oct 09 18:47:43 <|R> hahah Oct 09 18:47:48 <|R> ~grab gmaxwell Oct 09 18:47:51 <|R> if there is such a bot here Oct 09 18:47:52 <|R> :P Oct 09 18:48:44 Bots must be slacking off. Oct 09 18:48:50 |R: Not grab, but lots of other things Oct 09 18:48:59 ~fish |R Oct 09 18:49:00 * apt slaps |R around with a large trout Oct 09 18:49:01 At one time, there were at least three that would have responded. :-) Oct 09 18:49:02 <|R> hehe :) Oct 09 18:49:18 ~prod ozarka Oct 09 18:49:18 * apt zaps ozarka with a high voltage cattle prod Oct 09 18:49:26 * |R is old and busted Oct 09 18:49:27 ~lart CM Oct 09 18:49:27 * apt drops a baby grand on CM Oct 09 18:49:35 * CM stops playing around and tries a new uboot Oct 09 18:49:52 CM, do you have a dev board? Oct 09 18:49:57 gmaxwell: No.. Oct 09 18:50:04 CM: brave man... Oct 09 18:50:07 ~reverse tobami Oct 09 18:50:08 imabot Oct 09 18:50:17 gmaxwell: But I already have a half-bricked Neo, so no worries Oct 09 18:50:30 * Writchie salutes CM's for his gonads Oct 09 18:51:53 CM, half bricked? Oct 09 18:52:24 cb22: I've managed to break the partition table Oct 09 18:52:36 cb22: But I can still boot with the Factory Reset option Oct 09 18:52:47 cant you just flash it? Oct 09 18:52:48 Never normal boot.. Oct 09 18:53:04 No, the uboot_env contains the bad-blocks table Oct 09 18:53:05 CM: are you original BB tables in tack Oct 09 18:53:13 Writchie: No Oct 09 18:53:19 ouch Oct 09 18:53:25 Writchie: I got a bad uboot once.. Oct 09 18:53:38 * CM blames mickeyl a bit Oct 09 18:53:44 what about the one at the end of the device - are you sure its not readable Oct 09 18:53:55 And then when I flashed my kernel it overwrote the uboot_env Oct 09 18:54:05 Writchie: Hmm.. Don't know about that one. How can I get to it? Oct 09 18:54:13 tsk, should've backed up :) Oct 09 18:54:18 Anyway, the partitiontable can be rebuilt.. But I need serial console Oct 09 18:54:22 CM: IIRC there is a backup copy at the physical end of the device Oct 09 18:54:45 partition table != bad block table Oct 09 18:54:52 IIRC Oct 09 18:55:04 Wow, nice.. Oct 09 18:55:13 The uboot ljp recommended worked nicely Oct 09 18:55:51 * CM can't see what's going on because of the psplash Oct 09 18:56:09 we need a utility to back up the bbt from a device Oct 09 18:56:22 the factory bad blocks cannot ever be recovered if they are lost Oct 09 18:56:56 CM: Did you get yours fixed? Oct 09 18:56:56 using them can result in flaky operation Oct 09 18:57:01 IMHO, that should be part of dfu-util Oct 09 18:57:22 dfu-util seems a bit flaky to me Oct 09 18:57:40 abraxa_: No.. I can't get usb-console working Oct 09 18:57:40 why doesn't it work through vmware Oct 09 18:58:02 ljp: I agree Oct 09 18:58:45 CM: I wonder if there's a tool to debug u-boot through a running linux.... e.g. altering the u-boot env from there Oct 09 18:59:32 I've connected with mincom before it went bad, but now I just can't get access to the console.. Hmm.. Oct 09 19:00:02 I have the set console to USB option in the boot menu, but it does nothing :/ Oct 09 19:00:28 what device shows when you plug in the usb? Oct 09 19:01:44 Writchie: At boot? I do get the /dev/ttyACM0 Oct 09 19:02:42 CM: but you can't talk to it like with cu? Oct 09 19:03:22 Writchie: Nope.. Oct 09 19:03:33 what error? Oct 09 19:03:36 Can't find cu for gentoo btw Oct 09 19:03:42 I've only used minicom Oct 09 19:04:07 But the problem is that when I select console to usb in the uboot menu it just returns to the menu Oct 09 19:04:26 Oh well, factory reset still boots the kernel and rootfs Oct 09 19:04:32 I've got the qemu up, just playing with apps... A 4-function calculator ?!? I was insulted when I saw the dumb calculator built into my old iPhone - does Steve think his users are too dumb for a scientific calc? Oct 09 19:04:55 xyzzy_bill: wellllll Oct 09 19:05:08 xyzzy_bill, Say "Fruit phone" please. The other name ShallNotBeSpoken. ;) Oct 09 19:05:29 Sorry... s/iPhone/Fruit phone/g Oct 09 19:05:32 I should copy the gnu octave binaries over from my zaurus and see if they just run. :) Oct 09 19:05:34 CM: btw cu is part of UUCP Oct 09 19:05:45 ring ring ring ring ring bananaphone! Oct 09 19:05:54 rPhone! Oct 09 19:06:04 arr!-phone Oct 09 19:06:33 Writchie: Hmm.. Can't find that either. I'll look around Oct 09 19:07:10 CM: cu is pretty simple IIRC - you can probably just build it from UUCP sources Oct 09 19:09:59 Writchie: Ahh.. It's called taylor-uucp in gentoo Oct 09 19:12:58 ah an other gentoo lover out there Oct 09 19:14:08 peje: There's several here. Even seen seemant ;) (although he's not saying much) Oct 09 19:15:27 Sorry for more stupid newbie questions, but how do you get out of an app (like Black Box) when running qemu? Is there a "Home" key? Oct 09 19:16:23 xyzzy_bill: Either click on Today in the menu Oct 09 19:16:54 xyzzy_bill: I mean up left on the panel, or press the "power" button (Enter in qemu?) Oct 09 19:17:09 Also, hold in the power button or AUX to get some menus Oct 09 19:19:24 anyone workint on motorola a780 and openmoko? Oct 09 19:19:42 peje: Yes, the Ångström builds Oct 09 19:20:45 yes I did seen, but don't know if its already time to test, or better if I could help there Oct 09 19:22:22 I haven't heard much the last month. (Since http://dominion.kabel.utwente.nl/koen/cms/angstrom-running-on-an-motorola-a780 ) Oct 09 19:31:44 CM: i don't say much, it's true Oct 09 19:31:53 just waiting waiting for GTA02 Oct 09 19:32:03 anyone knows which alsamixer slider controls the gsm mic volume level? Oct 09 19:32:44 seemant: :) Oct 09 19:34:44 ljp: The only slider I can think of is ALC Capture Target Oct 09 19:35:16 Most of my channels are muted in alsamixer Oct 09 19:40:54 CM: thanks Oct 09 19:52:12 MokoMakefile fails on me with this error: http://rafb.net/p/1VUvAG22.html Oct 09 19:54:18 Hi, guys... now I'm trying to figure out what project I'm most interested in joining or starting. I see the project tree, but is there a roadmap from openmoko for core apps, like browser, phone/contacts/voicemail, application installer, and a music player? Oct 09 19:55:20 xyzzy_bill: http://svn.openmoko.org/trunk/src/target/OM-2007.2/applications/ shows you what's currently there - anything else is probably open Oct 09 19:55:43 "open" as in "available to be started" Oct 09 19:56:43 I have taken the error from the logfile now. It is more readable: http://rafb.net/p/h6459045.html Oct 09 19:57:54 That's obviously also wrong Oct 09 19:57:57 hmm Oct 09 19:58:28 GoGi: See http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=747 Oct 09 20:03:25 abraxa_: thanks Oct 09 20:04:09 I have noticed a strange similarity between gentoo ebuild files and .bb files. Which came from where? Oct 09 20:04:26 Yes, bitbake is based on portage Oct 09 20:07:44 s/portage/garbage/ Oct 09 20:08:12 ScaredyCat: Hehe.. Don't be so negative :P Oct 09 20:08:35 yeah, but which am I being nnegative about :) Oct 09 20:09:02 Is this the time of the day where we bash bitbake? Oct 09 20:09:40 ozarka: Don't forget to bash monotone too ;) Oct 09 20:09:42 bitbake bashing time is any time you like.. Oct 09 20:10:28 like ... #!/bin/bash , bitbake ? Oct 09 20:10:43 sorry.. that was bad. Oct 09 20:11:22 yes, Oct 09 20:12:15 Why not bash bash while you're at it? ;) Oct 09 20:14:32 but i like bash :( Oct 09 20:15:13 bash what? ;) Oct 09 20:17:57 when qemu is run with -kernel image.bin, does this mean that qemu directly loads the kernel image from that file and runs it? Oct 09 20:18:00 bash bitbake Oct 09 20:51:57 GoGi: according to man page, yes Oct 09 20:56:19 taneli: If I understand this correctly u-boot and the kernel are also written to the flash. Are they completely ignored when using qemu? And how does the external kernel know where the root filesystem begins? Oct 09 21:00:27 GoGi: I'm not sure of the details, but basically it expects it to be at a certain place, but it has offsets for the bad blocks. Hence the different partition tables on all Neos, stored in the uboot_env Oct 09 21:01:05 the kernel can read uboot_env then? Oct 09 21:01:20 I think uboot gives the options to the kernel Oct 09 21:01:23 As arguments Oct 09 21:01:42 But you should ask someone who knows more, or maybe there's some details in http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/U-boot Oct 09 21:04:15 It is strange, because if qemu bypasses u-boot, it can't pass those parameters Oct 09 21:04:48 I don't think qemu does bypass u-boot... Oct 09 21:05:19 at least for me qemu does just run u-boot Oct 09 21:05:57 woo.. build done. Oct 09 21:06:19 Mek: but you are starting it with -kernel xxx.bin? Oct 09 21:10:36 GoGi: I'm starting it with mokomakefile with "make run-qemu", not sure what that does... Oct 09 21:10:57 that does seem to use -kernal foo.bin yes... Oct 09 21:11:32 -kernel openmoko/openmoko-kernel.bin, but also -mtdblock openmoko/openmoko-flash.image Oct 09 21:11:42 but the kernel should be in openmoko-flash.image as well Oct 09 21:12:01 so why is -kernel needed, especially, when u-boot is not bypassed Oct 09 21:12:50 Hey guys... one more dumb question: What do you think of the noise about gPhone? Oct 09 21:13:02 Any good rumors? Oct 09 21:14:09 xyzzy_bill: You can bet your butt that it will be a closed platform because google seemingly wants to put ads on it - which means they don't want anyone to remove them Oct 09 21:14:34 With the gPhone being a closed platform it's completely uninteresting for me Oct 09 21:15:10 abraxa_: I'm sure you're right. It would be uninteresting for me as well. How come the minimo web browser isn't in the image by default? Oct 09 21:15:33 Does it blow out of the 64meg? Oct 09 21:15:49 No idea Oct 09 21:16:46 Also, the "Today" app looks cool, but it doesn't seem as nice as a traditional array of icons/folders for application launching. Is the old "Home" history? Oct 09 21:17:16 xyzzy_bill: the +button? Oct 09 21:18:28 zash: I just ordered my neo, so I'm just running qemu. What do I type to emulate +button? Oct 09 21:18:48 Well, the list can easily be replaced by another GTK+ widget - e.g. an icon view Oct 09 21:18:57 xyzzy_bill: in the today-screen click the +-tab att the bottom Oct 09 21:19:03 So this could easily be configurable Oct 09 21:19:28 ok Oct 09 21:19:47 xyzzy_bill: About minimo, I think the people involved just doesn't like it much ;) Oct 09 21:20:07 The browser will be webkit based Oct 09 21:21:31 Ah... and that's from OS-X? Oct 09 21:22:06 the same as in safari, yes Oct 09 21:22:16 that is a fork of KHTML Oct 09 21:22:23 Got it. Oct 09 21:22:50 It's definitely having a lot more momentum than gecko at the moment Oct 09 21:25:32 lm_tx: 3D enhance On. Oct 09 21:25:34 woot Oct 09 21:27:28 hmm.. the only way to shut down a frozen phone is to remove the battery? Oct 09 21:27:48 pretty much like any other crashed phone Oct 09 21:27:57 blend. Oct 09 21:28:08 it will? Oct 09 21:28:29 With a large enough blender, anything will. Oct 09 21:29:22 THE SUPERBLENDINATOR Oct 09 21:30:18 * cb22 wonders how will the lion batteries will blend Oct 09 21:30:22 well* Oct 09 21:30:26 mmm, lithium soup Oct 09 21:30:36 don't breath :P Oct 09 21:30:50 they even cook themselves Oct 09 21:30:58 heh Oct 09 21:30:58 do not apply water Oct 09 21:31:48 The iPhone realy blended well.. But the evil black smoke got out Oct 09 21:33:15 that was comedy :) Oct 09 21:33:45 "How do I put the black smocke back in the phone?" :D Oct 09 21:35:54 CM: fruit phone. Oct 09 21:38:01 So I see the core apps: browser, music player, phone/contacts/voicemail, and an icon that looks like e-mail. A photo album is also key. Will all these be stable in the production release? Oct 09 21:38:20 xyzzy_bill: Define "production release" Oct 09 21:38:40 The Xmas release Oct 09 21:38:47 For the masses Oct 09 21:39:13 * zash` dont think so Oct 09 21:39:53 GTA02 release on Christmas won't be the consumer release Oct 09 21:40:02 Ok. Oct 09 21:40:28 I just see no way to get everything done on the software side till then Oct 09 21:41:02 abraxa_: what will it be then, and which one will be the consumer release? Oct 09 21:41:41 It'll be what GTA01 is now - dev preview for those who really want it Oct 09 21:42:22 and gta02 whenever the software is ready will be the consumer one Oct 09 21:43:10 ah, so you can get gta02 and later update the software to have the "real thing"? Oct 09 21:44:33 there will be no gta03? Oct 09 21:45:23 not currently planned Oct 09 21:45:45 at least publically Oct 09 21:46:54 also, afaik this numbering scheme is for Neo1973, and one would think they'll not reinvent the model forever Oct 09 21:47:48 GoGi: There will be successors, just none are announced as of yet Oct 09 21:48:39 I heard work on some new models could be announced in december Oct 09 21:48:42 viq: Yes Oct 09 21:48:55 (as about the upgradability) Oct 09 21:49:09 pure gossip? Oct 09 21:49:34 viq: Actually, that was supposed to happen in September already ;) Oct 09 21:50:12 khaije1: read: "I think I heard someone say something about it, but I don't know how close to the project that preson is, and it could have changed multiple times since I heard it" ;) Oct 09 21:50:17 i'd always heard no new models would be announced until the first consumer release Oct 09 21:50:38 abraxa_: well, yes, but that's newer gossip I have ;) Oct 09 21:50:53 hahah excellent viq! Oct 09 21:51:04 Unless you have newer gossip and it WILL happen in September ;P Oct 09 21:51:22 viq: You're cheating! No fair! Oct 09 21:51:42 i get all my gossip from my official sources in the future Oct 09 21:51:52 so i'm covered ;-) Oct 09 21:52:09 seems I remember january - yeah that's it - january - year to be determined later ;) Oct 09 21:53:20 Writchie: "a phone of the 21st century!" - they should manage in that time frame ;) Oct 09 21:54:04 viq: Not if google buys FIC, Inc. & OpenMoko, Inc. to release it as gPhone Oct 09 21:54:05 ;) Oct 09 21:54:12 seems i was going to use neo as a christmas present - deja vu - Oct 09 21:54:19 OpenMoko is going to brick all our devices right after the next launch to force us to upgrade. Oct 09 21:55:17 sorry, could not resist... but, er, gPhone, it'd better have a good vibrator... ;P Oct 09 21:55:32 jury is still out as to whether GTA02 will be better device overall all than GTA01 would have been. Oct 09 21:55:55 gPhone rumors are just silly. It will be called the betaPhone. Oct 09 21:56:04 Writchie, Why? Oct 09 21:56:13 Writchie: how? Oct 09 21:56:18 power consumption Oct 09 21:56:22 didn't they establish that there is no gPhone Oct 09 21:56:24 gps chip Oct 09 21:56:26 And what does "would have been" mean? Oct 09 21:56:37 what about the GPS chip? Oct 09 21:56:38 ohh.. I'd presume the GPS could be shut off and the cpu downclocked though? Oct 09 21:56:39 Isnt' GTA01 already out? Oct 09 21:56:43 meaning had they just continued Oct 09 21:57:05 Is GTA02 that much of a departure? Oct 09 21:57:12 GTA02 caused a delay of many months Oct 09 21:57:24 Does this mean we're allowed to ask about GTA02 now that someone has mentioned it? Oct 09 21:57:29 well - it doesn't even appear to be frozen yet Oct 09 21:57:51 If the software is not done yet anyway, it can only be good to improve the hardware simultaneously Oct 09 21:58:17 except when the software isn't done because of work on the new hardware Oct 09 21:58:26 really? Oct 09 21:58:44 zash`: I think the gPhone rumors are pretty substantial. Oct 09 21:58:57 well look at all the advance since P1 shipped - Oct 09 21:59:30 Writchie: Was that sarcasm? Have there been advances? Oct 09 21:59:43 sarcasm Oct 09 22:00:08 hi, I'm new to openmoko :-) ver nice, impressive project :D don't worry about the gPhone, you guy are great! Oct 09 22:00:38 I just installed the latest snapsnot on my device (wich i've got for testing since today) Oct 09 22:01:12 but, unfortunately, the touchscreen semms to be not working. is there any way of recalibrating or testing it? Oct 09 22:02:14 madmarkus: tscal or xtscal or something like that Oct 09 22:02:29 or ts_calbrate Oct 09 22:07:09 yeah, use the x one though, for x Oct 09 22:09:08 ts_calibrate semms to be good, but i get an calibration faild error :( Oct 09 22:09:08 http://nopaste.info/b34fff346b.html Oct 09 22:10:54 madmarkus: Are you sure you're hitting the centers of the crosses? Oct 09 22:11:16 X and Y stay pretty much constant in your pastebin excerpt, which shouldn't be Oct 09 22:11:18 yes Oct 09 22:11:28 i'm sure :( Oct 09 22:11:50 Can you move the cursor at all? Oct 09 22:12:00 Try ts_test Oct 09 22:12:59 no, i dont see an cursor in the normal screen, Oct 09 22:13:21 with ts_test, as soon a i touch the screen with the pen, the cross disappears Oct 09 22:14:58 madmarkus: Hmm... makes me wonder if the hardware is broken Oct 09 22:15:02 and i get a lot of lines like Oct 09 22:15:03 1191873522.248556: -42 -61 1 Oct 09 22:15:03 the -42 moves between -37 and -42, the -61 sometimes down to -63 and the 1 switches with 0.... Oct 09 22:15:09 madmarkus: ts_* are non-X11 applications accessing the framebuffer directly so you should at least quit x before using them Oct 09 22:15:32 (or, as i said, use xtscal while under x) Oct 09 22:18:19 okay, i'll try to use xtscal under x ...after i remembered how to access Oct 09 22:18:24 X from ssh :P Oct 09 22:18:56 DISPLAY=:0 xtscal Oct 09 22:25:01 tahnk you, Henryk ;-) Oct 09 22:25:17 but...i still get the error Oct 09 22:25:21 root@fic-gta01:~$ DISPLAY=:0 xtscal Oct 09 22:25:22 ts_calibrate: determinant is too small -- 0.000000 Oct 09 22:25:32 i also tried another pen Oct 09 22:26:40 hmm, indeed, that doesn't look good Oct 09 22:27:20 bad new, does this mean that the hardware has an defect? Oct 09 22:27:30 best try to get hold of someone hardware-related at openmoko. maybe roh Oct 09 22:28:22 hm, okay, thank you so much for your help ! Oct 09 22:28:45 that's the first time i have heard of such thing, so yeah Oct 09 22:29:33 madmarkus: Did you take the protective plastic cover off the screen? Oct 09 22:29:44 Not trying to be a smart ass. :-) Oct 09 22:30:19 ozarka: yes, think so :) i dont see any edget, so i assume it is taken off ;-) Oct 09 22:30:41 Mine worked fine even with the protective plastic. Oct 09 22:31:26 so you took off the magic plastic that sealed in the magic vapor that would have made it work then! ;-) Oct 09 22:31:41 you let the magic invisible vapor out :) Oct 09 22:31:45 zecke: ping Oct 09 22:32:44 hm... /me tries to find a way to get some new magic vapor ;-) Oct 09 22:33:49 madmarkus: Have you just tried flashing with one image? Oct 09 22:39:06 ozarka: with the old one, i didn't get any reaction from the pen as well. so i tried a pretty new one Oct 09 22:39:21 (from yesterday) ;-) Oct 09 22:39:39 do you think, i should try another one, maybe one of the official ones as well? Oct 09 22:39:54 Yikes. Sounds like you won (lost?) the hardware lottery. Oct 09 22:40:03 I don't think it could hurt to try other images. Oct 09 22:40:35 I've flashed mine with both official ones and qtopia. Oct 09 22:40:43 But I never had trouble with the touch screen. Oct 09 22:42:42 allright, i think i'll try qtopia and a offical one tomorrow, it's time for some sleep now ;) thank you all very much :-) Oct 09 22:43:09 i don't think it's supposed to ouput "determinant too small" with any image or kernel Oct 09 22:43:46 Maybe "determinant too small" means "press harder". Oct 09 22:45:26 no, it would/should not register your press at all if you don't press hard enough Oct 09 22:47:07 uhm Oct 09 22:47:13 i tried it once again Oct 09 22:47:15 same as befor Oct 09 22:47:53 no error, even ts_calibrate give me now Oct 09 22:47:53 Calibration constants: 2147483647 -12451840 24903680 23068672 0 0 65536 Oct 09 22:48:12 it's part of the calibration calculation, see http://www.koders.com/c/fid48DBC8EDA08CA3C822F7CF53C3F595B0B2DA2C0A.aspx Oct 09 22:48:20 but, on the "desktop", i get no reaction from any thing i do with the pen Oct 09 22:48:55 try ts_test Oct 09 22:49:18 (yeah, it's not an x application, but don't care about that now :) Oct 09 22:51:06 same strage behavior as before Oct 09 22:51:12 the cross disappears Oct 09 22:51:32 the value on the console don't differ much while i move around on the display Oct 09 22:52:10 what do they say? Oct 09 22:52:31 1191875802.671484: -29960 352 0 Oct 09 22:52:31 1191875803.046533: -30340 352 1 Oct 09 22:52:49 yeah, that's most likely bogus. Oct 09 22:52:57 1191977260.479027: 352 302 1 Oct 09 22:52:57 1191977260.509040: 372 265 0 Oct 09 22:53:10 hm damit Oct 09 22:53:28 semms like the first coordinate is broken Oct 09 22:53:39 so best try to get hold of an openmoko hardware guy. I just can't say whether it's fastest to stay on IRC or send mail (and to which list) Oct 09 22:54:17 though most of those that i know are in the middle-european timezone and should be asleep right now Oct 09 22:54:18 but...the 352 stay constant... Oct 09 22:54:36 allright Oct 09 22:55:12 i'll write a mail and maybe some messages tomorroe...i'm from europe to and should sleep now, too ;-) Oct 09 22:57:39 I just knew it! kernel 2.6.23 released. I only compiled and installed 2.6.22.9 on Friday. And each time I install a patch version after a pause (e.g. I had 2.6.22.3 before) the new minor version will be released two days later. (so 2.6.23 is actually two days late, but that's the weekend, that's ok) Oct 09 22:58:16 :P Oct 09 22:58:24 whack ;-) Oct 09 22:58:41 anyway, that you a lot and good night ;-) Oct 09 22:58:53 that=thank ;-) Oct 09 22:58:54 you too Oct 09 23:04:58 hm .. "should be asleep right now" Oct 09 23:06:10 * ljp flashes for the umpteenth time Oct 09 23:08:08 hmmm... just tried make openmoko-devel-image and webkit-gtk wouldn't compile. has anyone else seen this? Oct 09 23:12:28 How's openmoko coming along? Oct 09 23:13:00 I've been using qtopia for a few weeks now as my primary phone, and it's been working... though I'd like to switch back to openmoko if the gsmd issues have worked out... Oct 09 23:19:16 freelock, They haven't been worked out yet. Oct 09 23:19:25 freelock, It works for you w/ qtopia?? :) Oct 09 23:19:29 What image! :) Oct 09 23:19:40 I started with the first one from qtopia.org... Oct 09 23:19:49 flashed a new one sometime last week... Oct 09 23:20:14 About the only issue I have is about a 2 second delay in the audio switching, before sound comes through the headset Oct 09 23:20:20 (aside from the known pm issues) Oct 09 23:21:25 I just built a new openmoko image, but kind of need the phone to work--my old one died... Oct 09 23:21:55 I do not believe that gsmd is working correctly for anyone at the moment. Oct 09 23:22:20 Thanks... been too swamped with work to keep up... Oct 09 23:22:24 Any GPS news? Oct 09 23:23:57 this is the image I'm using: qtopia-rootfs.2-10020615.jffs2 Oct 09 23:24:04 Thank you. Oct 09 23:24:28 I'm not too excited about using qtopia long term, but I've got a number of friends eager to see it.. and I'd like to show them something working. Oct 09 23:25:54 There's lots of quirks... you can't dial from the history, for example (at least not that I've figured out--I think it expects a hard dial button that doesn't exist) Oct 09 23:26:17 ... but overall it works, and the new image lets you choose a ring profile and a number of other things... Oct 09 23:27:08 Didn't like the keyboard at first, but it's actually not bad for finger typing if you don't have the pen handy Oct 09 23:50:15 has anyone been able to get wifi working on the neo 1973 via an sd card? does it even support i/o cards? Oct 09 23:51:39 the sd is minisd. Oct 09 23:51:53 I really doubt a minisd wifi interface exists! Oct 09 23:53:54 http://www.spectec.com.tw/products_detal.asp?dptype=w1sdw823 Oct 09 23:56:48 wow, how'd they fit the antenna into that? Oct 09 23:57:01 I'd think the antenna would be bigger than that fingernail-sized card... Oct 09 23:57:25 You can play games with the dielectric constant. Oct 09 23:57:33 To some extent. Oct 09 23:57:54 SpeedEvil: even then! Oct 09 23:58:01 The antenna is only 6cm half-wave at dielextric constant of 1. Oct 09 23:58:08 In ceramics it's higher Oct 09 23:58:10 but... Oct 10 00:08:44 ...but it's not very efficient at smaller sizes. Oct 10 00:12:01 Basically. Oct 10 00:12:09 Room temperature superconductors might help with that. Oct 10 00:12:16 But... Oct 10 00:12:54 :) nice... a room temperature superconductor in a micro-sd card :) Oct 10 01:51:08 openmoko: 03werner * r3138 10/trunk/src/host/usbpath/ (README lsusbpath): Oct 10 01:51:08 openmoko: lsusbpath: wrapper for lsusb to also print path names Oct 10 01:51:08 openmoko: README: added description of lsusbpath Oct 10 02:31:06 openmoko: 03werner * r3139 10/trunk/src/host/dfu-util/src/main.c: Oct 10 02:31:06 openmoko: main.c (iterate_dfu_devices): put back essential call to count_dfu_interfaces Oct 10 02:31:06 openmoko: stupidly removed by mistake :-( **** ENDING LOGGING AT Wed Oct 10 02:59:57 2007