**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Sun Oct 14 02:59:56 2007 Oct 14 03:18:45 Was the pricetag gonna be on openmoko GTA02 ? Oct 14 03:21:51 $450 I believe. Oct 14 03:21:56 (USD) Oct 14 03:24:47 * mwester wonders if there will be a price adjustment due to the rather poor performance of the USD Oct 14 03:25:41 I doubt that, most of the electronics are at the same price range still Oct 14 04:00:09 * BryceLeo pings torpor Oct 14 04:53:05 any rough estimates on how long it takes to build om using the mokomakefile? Oct 14 04:53:43 AntonTakk: What computer are you building on? Oct 14 04:54:17 amd64 dual 3 ghz 2G ram sata300 hdd Oct 14 04:56:34 Should be around 3-5h Oct 14 04:56:57 Unless fetching the files takes ages for you Oct 14 04:57:31 shouldn't be to bad, 1.5 mbit downstream Oct 14 04:57:44 thanks for the info Oct 14 04:57:55 Be sure you have parallel make and bitbake threads enabled Oct 14 04:58:23 In your local.conf: you need PARALLEL_MAKE = "-j 2" and BB_NUMBER_THREADS = "4" Oct 14 04:58:47 At least that's what I have for my AMD64 X2 Oct 14 04:58:51 hrm Oct 14 04:58:58 i set bb threads to 2 Oct 14 04:59:39 well, some bitbake jobs are heavy on i/o and some are not so it's better to set them higher. Oct 14 05:00:02 That way you can use the time your cpu waits for some sort of io to finish Oct 14 05:00:16 ah, will adjust that after the build finishes, or fails, whichever :) Oct 14 05:00:28 :-) Oct 14 05:00:33 good luck Oct 14 05:00:39 thanks Oct 14 05:01:18 oh, btw, if this builds, i should be able to use the resulting env to build packages for testing, right? Oct 14 05:02:17 yeah. Oct 14 05:03:10 Do you want to test a particular app or just in general? Oct 14 05:03:37 efl and related toys :) Oct 14 05:07:04 ah, cool :-) Oct 14 05:07:08 Have fun Oct 14 05:50:14 hrm, open embedded has some bitbake files for some of the e17 stuff already Oct 14 05:54:48 yeah Oct 14 05:56:54 i should hope so, raster's been spending a bunch of time on it Oct 14 05:57:51 hrm Oct 14 05:58:29 i knew he had been doing some work, but i thought it was all on code Oct 14 05:59:20 happen to know if it compiles and is actually workable? Oct 14 06:00:05 woohoo, i just made a call from the Openmoko instead of qtopia Oct 14 06:03:54 AntonTakk: only been doing work on code Oct 14 06:05:27 AntonTakk: soorry i don't know if it compiles Oct 14 06:05:51 eh, how hard could it possibly be to find out :) Oct 14 06:06:28 hey there raster how's life been treating you? Oct 14 06:06:46 there should be a way to hot-swap kernels.... Oct 14 06:07:03 i just don't want to reboot right now Oct 14 06:07:10 BryceLeo: kexec, theoretically Oct 14 06:07:29 but i don't think anyone has actually done it Oct 14 06:07:59 would be nice thou Oct 14 06:08:05 hmmmm Oct 14 06:08:05 it's certainly worth looking into Oct 14 06:08:08 that's for sure Oct 14 06:08:40 heh i'm gonna try it out, there's an ubuntu package for it Oct 14 06:09:18 * AntonTakk makes no promises Oct 14 06:09:20 BryceLeo: For kexec? Why would you need any ubuntu package for it? Oct 14 06:09:56 well, then i can get any updates bugfixes etc, with no brain power Oct 14 06:10:06 BryceLeo, AntonTakk: Take a look at the bugtracker. There is a sugessted patch for kexec and OE have the needed kexec userspace tools Oct 14 06:10:39 unlike my image magic where i have an old version with a fantastic bug, a stable version for the majority of my work, and a nighly build with cron Oct 14 06:11:04 ohh stefan_schmidt i mean for my desktop not for OpenMoko Oct 14 06:11:20 sorry for not clarifying Oct 14 06:11:34 BryceLeo: Ah, then it makes of course sense. Oct 14 06:11:48 BryceLeo: Ah, then it makes of course sense. Oct 14 06:11:56 haha thanks :-D Oct 14 06:13:19 alrighty, looks like a reboot is in order Oct 14 06:13:20 brb Oct 14 06:25:35 BryceLeo: not too bad - i'm jobless, homeless and pennyless atm :) Oct 14 06:26:01 whaaaaatttttt?!?!?!?! Oct 14 06:26:16 raster only on the internet can you sound so ok with this sort of thing Oct 14 06:26:47 <|R> hehe Oct 14 06:26:54 figure things will look up soon enough? Oct 14 06:33:10 BryceLeo: hehehehe Oct 14 06:33:19 BryceLeo: it's a transitory situation :) Oct 14 06:33:46 haha raster with the quality of your code i can't imagine you being jobless for long. Oct 14 06:34:02 no samba4 in oe yet, this could be a problem Oct 14 06:34:11 BryceLeo: let's see Oct 14 06:34:18 it does mean i have time to hack on my theme... Oct 14 06:34:18 :) Oct 14 06:34:20 that sort of attention to detail and planning has to spill over into evertythign Oct 14 06:34:50 hehehe sweeet Oct 14 06:34:53 free time is a good thing Oct 14 06:34:59 well in alot of cases Oct 14 06:39:53 guys check out the screenshot and need your comments, http://sudharsh.files.wordpress.com/2007/10/screenshot.png Oct 14 06:42:59 pygsmd? Oct 14 06:43:31 driving the gsm chip with your own stuff? Oct 14 06:45:14 or is it a wrapper around gsmd? Oct 14 06:45:15 DukeOfURL, no, no, some bindings to the libgsmd, Oct 14 06:45:24 DukeOfURL, wrapper Oct 14 06:45:44 i know zecke has created another one, but this doesnt depend on libmokogsmd Oct 14 06:45:51 BryceLeo: i nver do anything without a plan :) i'm a jobless penniless homeless bum for a good reason :) Oct 14 06:48:00 raster, well that's certainly a good thing. Am i allowed to ask the good reason? Needed to shake up your life a bit? Oct 14 06:48:09 raster: Just come over and I sponsor you some drinks. ;) Oct 14 06:48:24 Sup3rkiddo: is it possible to get signal strength from all available base stations? or just one? Oct 14 06:48:57 DukeOfURL, i didnt bind that, since i wasnt sure if it would work.. Oct 14 06:49:19 oh. just a question I have. Oct 14 06:49:39 DukeOfURL, the code is here, http://projects.openmoko.org/plugins/scmsvn/viewcvs.php/?root=python-openmoko Oct 14 06:49:47 warning, reallyt noobish though Oct 14 06:49:57 * Sup3rkiddo is beginning to code Oct 14 06:50:36 I'm learning Python as well. Marvelous tool. Oct 14 06:51:21 stefan_schmidt: You don't even have money at the moment... Oct 14 06:51:55 haha stefan_schmidt you and raster are in the same country arent you Oct 14 06:51:57 alphaone: Right, my assitent would pay the drinks then. Oct 14 06:52:29 BryceLeo: Flights are cheap ;) Oct 14 06:52:59 stefan_schmidt: hehehehe :) Oct 14 06:53:40 BryceLeo: let's see :) that may need to wait to talk about Oct 14 06:53:41 hahah stefan_schmidt not if you're in the US looking at a flight out to taiwan, korea, or china it's a taaaad expensive, certainly not a day trip Oct 14 06:54:01 stefan_schmidt: At least I'm assisting people :-) Oct 14 06:54:40 haha raster that makes sense. Oct 14 06:54:43 alphaone: You mean pester them during a short after breakfast nap? ;) Oct 14 06:55:24 If by "short nap" you mean "4 hour sleep", then yeah. Oct 14 06:56:32 alphaone: of course Oct 14 06:58:20 Sup3rkiddo: is there resource material for C<->Python binding? tutorial? Oct 14 06:58:54 DukeOfURL, yeah, check out the latest python magazine, some introductory stuff is covered Oct 14 06:59:09 DukeOfURL if get the source for the python-gnome bindings and look at it, it's quite explanatory Oct 14 06:59:24 online or paper magazine? Oct 14 07:00:24 found it--thanks Oct 14 07:00:28 DukeOfURL, ebook, Oct 14 07:24:33 played with a NEO at work the other day. Oct 14 07:24:42 one of the guys had one. Oct 14 07:24:45 nice screen. Oct 14 07:26:30 guten morgen Oct 14 07:30:14 Just FYI -- I am hiring people to work on Linux stuff for embedded/mobile. If anyone is interested, let me know. Oct 14 07:49:34 cdm: Stop stealing people ;-) Oct 14 07:50:22 cdm: Unless your work is on the Neo/OpenMoko. Then of course go ahead. Oct 14 07:50:57 hmm, this asia bathtub are to small for western people in my opinion Oct 14 07:51:25 alphaone: maybe not on those, but what we are doing @ Palm will hopefully be usefull to everyone. Oct 14 07:52:50 cdm: Fair enough. I wasn't really serious anyway :-) Oct 14 07:53:12 :) Oct 14 07:53:15 I figured. Oct 14 07:53:33 Any work is great as long as it's opened and can be used by the community. Oct 14 07:56:52 Anything we do kernel side will be opened up -- and hopefully will make it into the mainline kernel. Oct 14 07:57:16 http://www.linkedin.com/in/christophermckillop -- in case anyone is wondering who I am. :) Oct 14 07:57:59 haha nice resume Oct 14 07:59:49 cdm: Getting into mainline is always good. That way you don't have to constantly try to keep up with the changes there. (Or keep using an obsolete kernel) Oct 14 08:00:20 exactly. Oct 14 08:01:55 cdm: So you were annoyed by the closed nature of the iphone? :-) Oct 14 08:02:19 alphaone: In some ways -- but mostly excited about working for Jon Rubenstien again. Oct 14 08:02:25 he was running iPod when I first joined Apple. Oct 14 08:02:40 I was the 3rd or 4th person on his linux team then. Oct 14 08:03:45 cdm: Linux team? iPod? Oct 14 08:05:19 ;) Oct 14 08:05:23 that is all I will say right now. Oct 14 08:05:28 someday maybe I will write a book. Oct 14 08:06:00 cdm: Okay. Consider my as interested in it :-) Oct 14 08:06:17 http://www.everythingtreo.com/news/palm/palm-sells-25-percent-stake-to-private-equity-group-20070610516/ Oct 14 08:06:20 * stefan_schmidt is sure many big companies have many interested research or lab projects in house. ;) Oct 14 08:07:11 it was more then that. Oct 14 08:07:40 cdm: So consider me also interested. :) Oct 14 08:07:47 * alphaone is surely looking forward to that book Oct 14 08:07:48 moi aussi Oct 14 08:08:00 cdm: Just send one to OpenMoko Inc. once you are done. :) Oct 14 08:08:39 hehehe Oct 14 08:09:31 only kernel stuff open? Oct 14 08:09:35 thats a bit limited Oct 14 08:09:57 and pretty useless if you decide to move drivers to userspace Oct 14 08:10:14 (useless in terms of being open) Oct 14 08:10:14 :) Oct 14 08:10:20 hey raster Oct 14 08:10:21 ltns Oct 14 08:10:34 cdm: hey hey :) Oct 14 08:10:46 raster: it's the only part I can commit one-way-or-another to being open. Oct 14 08:10:53 true enough Oct 14 08:11:23 raster: still down under? Oct 14 08:11:31 cdm: thats fair enough Oct 14 08:11:45 cdm: but compared to openmoko's committment to open... its pretty pale :) Oct 14 08:12:01 cdm: nah! was there, then jpan for almsot 4 years, now out of japan Oct 14 08:12:16 being a jobless bum kicking up a stick in asia Oct 14 08:12:18 :) Oct 14 08:12:34 raster: oh yeah, I know. But we are making trying to make products again -- rather then platforms. Oct 14 08:12:42 http://www.everythingtreo.com/news/palm/palm-sells-25-percent-stake-to-private-equity-group-20070610516/ Oct 14 08:13:14 cdm: just read. Oct 14 08:13:27 lets see Oct 14 08:13:29 :) Oct 14 08:13:33 cdm: does Palm have its own browser engine? Oct 14 08:13:45 i'd stick my eggs in openmoko's basket Oct 14 08:14:15 basically because they are open :) Oct 14 08:14:52 alp: in-house all new engine kinda of thing? Hell no. That would be kinda dumb. :) Oct 14 08:15:32 cdm: nope, quite the opposite. i remember one of the mobile companies, maybe one of the baby Palms (PalmSource?) had an old school mobile browser Oct 14 08:15:37 raster: openmoko's gonna get a kick in the pants from guys in the Valley pretty soon. Oct 14 08:15:52 alp: Yeah, that is the old palm source stuff now at Access. Oct 14 08:15:54 aiighty guys i'ts 4am for me so i'm off to bed, i've got two miderms coming up and a crazy cram session scheduled tomorrrow Oct 14 08:16:02 and Access has NetFront Oct 14 08:16:08 right, that was it Oct 14 08:16:12 this has nothing to do with any of the old Palm stuff. Oct 14 08:16:12 goodnight all, it's been fun Oct 14 08:16:17 Palm has been rebooted. Oct 14 08:20:14 cdm: I think I wait for more hard facts before thinking to much about this. :) Oct 14 08:21:02 sure. Oct 14 08:21:23 stefan: which in particular? :) Oct 14 08:22:33 cdm: What kind of kick in the pants? What kind of hardware we are talking about? Where is the code to take a look? What restrictions does it all have?... Oct 14 08:23:39 cdm: I mean it's always nice to the companies going more open, but personally I like to the details before getting hyped by it. Oct 14 08:23:43 stefan -- do you know who I mean is doing the kicking? Oct 14 08:23:49 it isn't us. Oct 14 08:23:52 us == Palm Oct 14 08:24:02 cdm: So who's it? Oct 14 08:24:08 cdm: I know that you are perhaps not able to give me thois facts right noe Oct 14 08:24:17 now. That fine. I can wait. Oct 14 08:24:31 one of your former employers? Oct 14 08:24:34 cdm: Yeah, got that. Oct 14 08:24:50 no Oct 14 08:24:56 cdm: Still interested more in facts. Oct 14 08:25:10 stefan: Me too -- I don't have them all. Oct 14 08:25:28 and it won't be as open as OM, but it will be impressive. Oct 14 08:25:29 cdm: I don't live in "the valley", so I don't hear all the mumbles. :) Oct 14 08:26:06 cdm: I'll keep an eye in this area. Oct 14 08:26:16 cdm: We'll see how that turns out. A little competition is always good. Oct 14 08:26:23 cdm: And don't forget to send the book. ;) Oct 14 08:26:25 cdm: let's see about that :) Oct 14 08:27:44 raster: those guys have been working on shit for years. If it isn't freaking amazing in some respects then I am going to consider it a huge let down. Oct 14 08:30:36 cdm: The nice thing about open source is that you can benefit from different projects. If they have nice stuff you can adopt it. Of course for that it will have to be open source first. Oct 14 08:31:50 raster: Any idea in what kind of tattoo I should integrate the scar? ;) Oct 14 08:32:24 But enough speculations, I'm starting to get hungry. Oct 14 08:32:31 :) Oct 14 08:32:37 I am starting to get tired. Oct 14 08:32:43 alphaone: Moment, let me just put on some socks and shoes Oct 14 08:32:45 :-) Oct 14 08:32:48 bbiab Oct 14 08:33:05 stefan_schmidt: And other stuff I don't want to talk about Oct 14 08:33:13 j/k Oct 14 08:46:21 Hello. may I ask some questions about running openmoko under ubunutu in an qemu emulation? Oct 14 09:16:31 * stefan_schmidt is not sure the other people on this floor have the same music taste then alphaone :) Oct 14 09:17:01 But it's fine with me Oct 14 09:23:15 fine with me, too. I don't hear his music :) Oct 14 10:36:28 the clock on the today window really needs to be bigger, HTC have got this one thing right Oct 14 10:36:53 if your going to have a clock make it easy to see Oct 14 10:37:47 you mean the cock in the panel? Oct 14 10:37:52 ups, clock, even Oct 14 10:38:01 or the date in the today window? Oct 14 10:41:41 http://www.stormofcash.com/index.php?ref=ezis15 EARN REALL MONEY ON E-GOLD!!! Oct 14 10:42:21 *sigh* Oct 14 10:44:38 * mypapit out Oct 14 10:49:37 mickeyl, bad typo :) Oct 14 10:49:53 ;) Oct 14 10:53:21 hi Oct 14 10:53:30 bye :) Oct 14 10:55:18 mickeyl: yes its too small to be functional, go look at a HTC phones default screen, a nice big and clearly visable clock Oct 14 10:58:16 hmm Oct 14 10:58:37 well, the major problem seems to me that you won't get a clock anyways when the phone is suspended Oct 14 10:58:54 because the display is turned off Oct 14 11:00:34 mickeyl: this is the default screen on an older HTC touch http://i.i.com.com/cnwk.1d/sc/32465595-2-440-FT.jpg Oct 14 11:01:22 In principle with the GTA02 - you can turn off the CPU and have the GPU simply refresh the screen at a low brightness. Oct 14 11:01:26 (AIUI) Oct 14 11:01:47 Dell have an intresting clock on their PDA http://www.spbsoftwarehouse.com/products/time/images/InCradle.jpg Oct 14 11:01:49 heh, I use the resume-look at clock-suspend cycle quite a lot, and big numbers would certainly help with that. Oct 14 11:01:57 interesting* Oct 14 11:02:04 Unfortunately the screen chosen simply does not allow any visibility at all without backlight. Oct 14 11:02:07 saytime is also cool Oct 14 11:03:55 Does anybody know how good the choosen ATR0635 GPS Receiver is? Oct 14 11:03:55 I only know what I read on many places: SiRF-StarIII shall be good and one of the best chips today. Oct 14 11:04:24 SpeedEvil: always set the softkey to turn the screen on for 3 seconds or when you shake the phone ie GTA02 it turns the screen on Oct 14 11:04:55 Low backlight isn't actually that bad. Oct 14 11:05:05 linux-bastler, the u-blox should have similar performance to a sirf star 3 Oct 14 11:05:31 yep, read the same thing Oct 14 11:05:35 same sensitivity Oct 14 11:05:59 I wish they'd gone with HH and HH had been slightly more with specs. Oct 14 11:06:17 But... Oct 14 11:06:40 for me if you going to have a clock do it properly ie make it easily visible or just save the space for something else Oct 14 11:06:40 maybe they should've put out a challenge Oct 14 11:07:04 create a perfectly working reverse engineered driver, and we'll give you a gta02 and you your driver Oct 14 11:07:45 cb22_: I'd think one GTA02 is a little cheap for that ;) Oct 14 11:07:57 heh, a few then Oct 14 11:08:15 and a nice warm fuzzy feeling Oct 14 11:08:29 or just offer a chalenge, create a driver and get a gold plated OM Oct 14 11:09:14 If there was some reward - financial - I'd may have been putting in hours/day, rather than days/hour Oct 14 11:09:44 Well, it would be nice for the community indeed, however such a challenge means that the outcome is not guaranteed to work and the time frame is too long to guarantee that the release date isn't pushed back even more Oct 14 11:11:16 heh, just had a funny thought, imagine getting an OM thats gold plated, and I mean everything is gold plated ie the screen Oct 14 11:11:28 That's why you use screen protectors. Oct 14 11:11:42 If someone goldplates your neo, you just remove the protector. Oct 14 11:12:21 ...and sell it? :-) Oct 14 11:12:35 got to play with a HTC Tytn II last week, not bad Oct 14 11:13:31 the screen was a bit everage though Oct 14 11:13:37 average* Oct 14 11:13:56 abraxa_: no - however as it ended up it would - with the progress that was going on - be not unlikely to have a driver by the time that the decision was made for the GPS. Oct 14 11:14:25 StarWars edition of the OM, your for a mere geeky $799, may the source be with you Oct 14 11:14:31 yours* Oct 14 11:14:52 :-P Oct 14 11:16:01 the stylus looks like a light saber heh Oct 14 11:16:58 SpeedEvil: Yeah, maybe... from my point of view I'm happy with either choice as long as the GPS works - sub-meter precision is irrelevant for me personally Oct 14 11:17:22 It's not only that. There are other potential nicenesses, but... Oct 14 11:17:31 just going down the right street for many is what they want Oct 14 11:18:07 Sub meter precision can buy you stuff like telling direction after you've walked 0.5m. rather than 2m Oct 14 11:18:31 SpeedEvil: The best way to convince the OM folks to switch back to HH would be to provide a working driver, though I can see that your motivation is not too high if it's not even up for discussion Oct 14 11:18:35 SpeedEvil: lol, what you want a "find my keys" applet Oct 14 11:19:28 abraxa_: the problem is that it's likely to be several hundred hours more work, and useful to maybe 200 people. Oct 14 11:19:48 So... Oct 14 11:19:49 That's my point, yeah Oct 14 11:20:21 really OM should just get the basic working functions going right now, let the hackers have a go at adding apps Oct 14 11:23:00 I would have listed 5 things that the OM must be able to do, make sure it does them very well then worry about the other stuff Oct 14 11:23:21 ie make and receive calls, sms, etc Oct 14 11:23:41 And communicate to the community what you are _not_ doing. Oct 14 11:23:52 sub metre precision would definitely be nice for openstreetmap. Oct 14 11:23:57 So they can do it without making the assumption that 'of course they are doing that'. Oct 14 11:24:00 cjb: that too. Oct 14 11:24:45 how feasible do you actually reckon it would be to get sub metre precision? Oct 14 11:25:24 In principle, with a close local corrector it should be practical for stationary points. Oct 14 11:25:35 Probably for post-corrected tracks too. Oct 14 11:25:42 Doing it dynamically may be tricky. Oct 14 11:25:51 oooh, post-corrected tracks would be very very nice. Oct 14 11:25:56 cjb_ie: if you know the GSM towers exact position its very simple with gps as a cross reference Oct 14 11:26:02 No. Oct 14 11:26:11 SpeedEvil: yes Oct 14 11:26:15 You don't get good enough info from the GSM towers Oct 14 11:26:37 SpeedEvil: they use the same trick in Melbourne harbour they can get it down to less than 1/2 meter Oct 14 11:26:37 Linux_Galore: but all you get from GSM is the attenuation, which is far too terrain-sensitive? Oct 14 11:26:56 linuxperv: that may be AGPS Oct 14 11:27:15 linuxperv: using the GPS and an assistance server nearby Oct 14 11:27:42 SpeedEvil: they know the exact position of the GPS towers Oct 14 11:28:01 sorry GSM Oct 14 11:28:09 Linux_Galore: [citation needed] Oct 14 11:28:33 linuxperv: It's also easy if you can stick stuff on the towers that computes the phones position. Oct 14 11:28:42 Doing it phone-side is trickier AIUI. Oct 14 11:29:25 * cjb_ie also notes that harbours probably have pretty good signal propagation characteristics Oct 14 11:29:55 the problem with Melbourne harbour is its HUGE and GPS doesnt work that well in that enviroment so the CSIRO developed a neat trick to get a more accurate bearing using GSM towers Oct 14 11:30:12 why doesn't GPS work well there? Oct 14 11:30:37 not enough satalites Oct 14 11:30:51 satellites* Oct 14 11:30:54 coo, didn't think melbourne was that far south Oct 14 11:31:32 accuracy is really bad, dont forget you have fog too, so if you not within 10 meters you wont see a thing Oct 14 11:32:31 imagine trying to find someone on a little blow up raft in an area the size of Wales Oct 14 11:32:36 hmm, it's a good ten degrees closer to the equator than me, and i don't have any significant problem. are there very high hills blocking the northern sky? Oct 14 11:32:46 then add fog and crappy gps accuracy Oct 14 11:33:07 linuxperv: have you actually experienced the GPS inaccuracy? Or is this secondhand? Oct 14 11:34:15 SpeedEvil: no, there was an accident and a boat sank after an accident and they couldnt find the survivors for hours even though they knew were they were \ Oct 14 11:34:55 its was one the new years ago and I remember not long after a science doco on the new method of working around the GPS problem Oct 14 11:35:08 Can /I turn off mappaint? Oct 14 11:35:11 on the news* Oct 14 11:35:55 its was on the news years ago and I remember not long after a science doco reporting on a new method of working around the GPS problem Oct 14 11:35:56 I find that difficult to believe. Oct 14 11:36:14 The position will be within 100m easily even in the worst of satellite conditions. Oct 14 11:36:29 in open ocean with a properly functioning non-jammed reciever. Oct 14 11:36:30 SpeedEvil: in fog you have to be within 10 meters Oct 14 11:36:43 Which is irrelevant. Oct 14 11:36:51 As the ocean tends to move. Oct 14 11:37:09 doesnt the new chip also support DGPS? Oct 14 11:37:13 And a position accurate to 10m after hours will not be accurate to 10m for a floating hting. Oct 14 11:37:22 SpeedEvil: dude, you cant see jack shit unless your within 10 meters of the raft, this is a huge harbour Oct 14 11:37:26 cb22_: it supports WAAS and assorted thigns. Oct 14 11:37:33 SpeedEvil: the water is pretty flat Oct 14 11:37:35 yeah, i read about that Oct 14 11:37:39 pretty cool Oct 14 11:37:49 linuxperv: which is completely irrelevant unless the raft is constantly broadcasting its exact position. Oct 14 11:38:13 If you get one GPS position, and try to go to it, the raft will have moved. Oct 14 11:38:20 SpeedEvil, premature tabbing? Oct 14 11:38:24 Sigh Oct 14 11:38:29 SpeedEvil: it sounds to me like it's real-time tracking of people with phones, no GPS involved. Oct 14 11:38:41 SpeedEvil: the other problem is they couldn't go out in large numbers because they were worried about collisions Oct 14 11:38:47 cjb: perhaps - lots can be done if you ahve all the towers. Oct 14 11:39:06 triangulation? Oct 14 11:39:16 cb22_: basically - yes. Oct 14 11:39:28 triangulation and (accurate) range-finding Oct 14 11:39:30 but wouldnt the terrain and conditions affect that? Oct 14 11:39:49 cb22_: if you use the fact that several towers can compare the recieve time of a signal compared to local GPS timebase, it can get accurate. Oct 14 11:39:59 nifty Oct 14 11:41:20 considering the subject, this might be interesting: http://gsmloc.org/ Oct 14 11:41:34 Unless you have live comms between the boats with red/blue displays, GPS doesn't actually help to avoid collisions. Oct 14 11:41:57 Unless you have practiced well enough that you can all work an independant grid. Oct 14 11:42:00 Which is _hard_ Oct 14 11:42:39 As though y your position, you don't know everyone elses. Oct 14 11:44:12 yeah, gps is not radar Oct 14 11:44:37 I have a feeling though they have put more satellites up so its not such an issue now Oct 14 11:45:09 unless the search/rescue types have realtime display of what the GSM towers are finding. Oct 14 11:46:44 you could also use radio towers as a reference \ Oct 14 11:48:31 linuxperv: that doesn't really work well Oct 14 11:49:37 linux_ As it's hard to do it on that side - the phone doesn't usually get a great idea where it is. The towers have a good idea where the phone is as they can do the accurate relative timing. The phone can't really do this as well. Oct 14 11:50:07 yup, the phone essentially talks to one tower at a time, doesn't it Oct 14 11:54:25 openmoko: 03mickey * r3157 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007.2/applications/openmoko-firststart2/ (intltool-extract.in intltool-merge.in intltool-update.in): openmoko-firststart2: bump intltool scripts Oct 14 11:54:37 openmoko: 03mickey * r3158 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007.2/applications/openmoko-firststart2/ (data/Makefile.in data/ui.glade src/main.c): openmoko-firststart2: add page for security settings Oct 14 11:59:15 cjb: mostly - yes. But all towers recieve the phone when it broadcasts. Oct 14 12:05:05 Shoragan: ping Oct 14 12:05:15 pong Oct 14 12:05:17 Shoragan: i guess you forgot to commit hack-gta02-cpu.patch Oct 14 12:05:21 whatever this may be Oct 14 12:05:23 :) Oct 14 12:05:26 ahrg Oct 14 12:05:49 do you think it makes sense to use the time provided by GPS to set the system clock? - should by pretty accurate, right? Oct 14 12:05:52 mtn list missing is a nice command Oct 14 12:06:31 i don't know enough about gps Oct 14 12:07:12 hmm maybe it should be an option in an adjust sys-time panel Oct 14 12:07:27 list missing doesn't show it Oct 14 12:07:47 Shoragan: right, it's probably mtn list unknown then Oct 14 12:08:10 yes, thats it :) Oct 14 12:08:20 svn/svk status show those files Oct 14 12:08:34 so i was using mtn status Oct 14 12:08:48 *nod* Oct 14 12:08:59 so what's this hack-gta02-cpu patch about and why can't it be in svn? Oct 14 12:09:37 it's for fixing the depenencies of gta02 to CPU_S3C2442 Oct 14 12:10:22 in reality we should move the files to the 2442 directories and fix them there, but to keep the .22 and .23 patches similar for now i added that fix Oct 14 12:10:43 hmm, k Oct 14 12:10:50 and it should disappear when we change to .23 for real Oct 14 12:15:31 mickeyl, i've added them now Oct 14 12:16:36 k, thanks Oct 14 12:16:47 what's holding us back to make .23.1 the stable one? Oct 14 12:17:54 laforge wants to apply all outstanding patches to .22 first Oct 14 12:18:43 and the display was not working for .23 and gta-02 the last time i had access to one ;) Oct 14 12:19:32 right Oct 14 12:19:52 btw., what's was the culprit with printascii for .23 ? Oct 14 12:19:55 did you find out? Oct 14 12:20:35 the layout of the include files changed Oct 14 12:20:54 so i just added the extern directly in printk.c Oct 14 12:21:06 and the correct config options must be set Oct 14 12:21:17 k Oct 14 12:21:49 but it shouldn't be necessary right now, i used it only for debugging the cpu setup routines Oct 14 12:22:11 linux_ On reflection - if this incident was before 1998 - selective availability will have been on. This kills accuracy - in the best conditions you get a 150m wander. If it was much before, you will have been running into problems with an incomplete constellation. My earlier comments were based on neither of these being true. Oct 14 12:28:32 re Oct 14 12:30:35 stefan_schmidt: hey - you had dinner? Oct 14 12:30:39 missed you leaving Oct 14 12:30:43 was out walking around Oct 14 12:30:58 raster: Not really. Just abused the snacks in our hotel. Oct 14 12:31:07 raster: Like to go out for it? Oct 14 12:31:17 well werner is here and asking about food Oct 14 12:31:23 hejust got out of the shower Oct 14 12:31:29 give us maybe 10 or 20 mins Oct 14 12:31:47 raster: Fine with me Oct 14 12:32:00 raster: Well, we just returned from a small shop visiting around the hotel Oct 14 12:32:22 raster: Just let us know what you plan. Oct 14 12:32:42 Yeah, ikea here is same as in germany :-) Oct 14 12:35:57 got morning Oct 14 12:36:01 good morning Oct 14 12:36:24 got milk? :-) Oct 14 12:36:30 heh. Oct 14 12:36:54 what do you recommend as the best sim-airtime provider if i want to get one without a plan Oct 14 12:37:03 just for openmoko dev Oct 14 12:39:26 Depends on which country you live in :-) Oct 14 12:39:40 I only know stuff about germany Oct 14 12:44:18 abraxa_: are you hardcoding pulsesink in your pipeline nowadays? Oct 14 12:45:26 Does anybody know if there is somebody who will make a Neo-reselling in Germany? Oct 14 12:48:10 Or what's if the Neo-Hardware is broken and I bought it in a foreign country? I mean how warranty will be handled Oct 14 12:48:25 openmoko: 03laforge * r3159 10/trunk/doc/hardware/GTA02v3/gpio.txt: nGCS3 is now the second chip select for the NOR chip Oct 14 12:48:33 mickeyl http://users.ictp.it/~radionet/ghana1998/GPS/PAGE15.HTM points out, that gps gives us atomic accuracy - that even better than DCF77 - it should be considered to sync the clock then :-) - shell I try to write a time-panel to show up on click to the panel-clock? Oct 14 12:48:59 yeah, gps synced clock would be nice Oct 14 12:49:11 bbiab Oct 14 12:50:08 It syncs the clock. Oct 14 12:50:14 It does not set TZ Oct 14 12:50:14 mickeyl: Yes, because we're not using gconf to configure gstreamer and it uses alsasink by default Oct 14 12:50:25 SpeedEvil right Oct 14 12:50:34 SpeedEvil, that would be easy to sort out Oct 14 12:50:37 it is a GPS :) Oct 14 12:50:41 SpeedEvil that'll have to be set by the user Oct 14 12:50:50 kristian-m: maybe. Oct 14 12:50:51 kristian-m, why not just get the user's position? Oct 14 12:50:59 kristian-m: that's not the right way - which is more complex. Oct 14 12:51:00 and set it accordingly? Oct 14 12:51:05 Something like TZwiki Oct 14 12:51:14 cb22_ this would need a database ot timezones Oct 14 12:51:24 With a way for the phone to pickup changes. Oct 14 12:51:24 but isn't there one? Oct 14 12:51:30 (legislative changes) Oct 14 12:51:46 does osm have these infos? Oct 14 12:51:54 i always see maps with the timezones separated Oct 14 12:53:05 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3d/Timezones_optimized.png Oct 14 12:53:20 It isn't that much data I think Oct 14 12:53:33 hmm however we don't even have a time-adjust-gui at all yet Oct 14 12:53:43 Maledictus thx Oct 14 12:54:19 Maledictus, @ freebsd, just tried it out in qemu Oct 14 12:54:30 do we know that the kernel is booting, but cannot access it? Oct 14 12:54:49 it's kindof booting Oct 14 12:54:50 or is the kernel just not booting Oct 14 12:55:08 kindof? Oct 14 12:55:30 The machine dependent initialization of the hardware is not written yet Oct 14 12:56:08 and there is no way to see any output so we don't know where it crashes Oct 14 12:56:15 ah right Oct 14 12:56:30 maybe looking at netbsd's ssio would be a good idea? Oct 14 12:56:40 (IIRC) Oct 14 12:56:58 but as long as initarm() isn't correct there won't be any real progress on other things. Oct 14 12:57:34 I looked at netbsds sscom driver but it's kinda big. When I can find the time I try to port it to freebsd. Oct 14 12:57:43 cool Oct 14 12:57:49 i wish i knew c :( Oct 14 12:57:50 Hey, guys. I'm just starting to try and figure out how to best do development for the NEO1973. I'm guessing that it's easier to do dev work on the emulator, rather than the phone. I'm running qemu, and that's fine. I run Ubuntu (Fiesty x64). What tools would you guys recommend for dev/debug? Oct 14 12:58:01 openmoko: 03laforge * r3160 10/trunk/src/target/u-boot/patches/uboot-gta02.patch: add experimental (untested) GTA02v3 and GTA02v4 support to u-boot Oct 14 12:58:14 this morning I got mail from a netbsd guy who booted completly into netbsd, mounting a root image from memory disk Oct 14 12:58:49 So next thing for netbsd is trying to access a sd card Oct 14 12:58:56 wow, nice Oct 14 12:59:51 netbsd works really great. It was a matter of changing a few config files to port it. because netbsd already had support for the s3c2410 chip Oct 14 13:00:04 for freebsd it's not that simple :( Oct 14 13:00:08 yeah, what did you base this one on? Oct 14 13:00:28 at91? Oct 14 13:00:37 yep Oct 14 13:00:57 maybe it would be a good idea to talk to the freebsd -arm guys? Oct 14 13:01:35 I do :) Oct 14 13:01:49 nice Oct 14 13:01:56 well, i cant wait :) Oct 14 13:02:00 kristian-m: sounds interesting. sure, go for it. Oct 14 13:02:23 will be interesting triple booting :) Oct 14 13:02:29 I could dance all day that this evil gps chip will be gone in gta02 :D Oct 14 13:02:40 hehe, ya Oct 14 13:02:48 triple? Oct 14 13:02:57 free, net, linux Oct 14 13:03:01 for the fun of it Oct 14 13:03:12 yop. I will do so too Oct 14 13:03:22 you waiting for 02 to come out? Oct 14 13:04:48 suer Oct 14 13:04:50 sure Oct 14 13:05:20 openmoko: 03laforge * r3161 10/trunk/doc/hardware/GTA02v4/ (. gpio.txt): add GTA02v4 GPIO definitions Oct 14 13:05:30 gta02v4 made? Oct 14 13:08:05 Hey, since we're talking about GPS, it sure would be cool to have a way to auto-update an open-source map like http://www.openstreetmap.org using our phone data. Oct 14 13:08:35 yeah, a zero work way Oct 14 13:08:39 you leave your GPS on Oct 14 13:08:43 it logs the positions Oct 14 13:08:46 and uploads it Oct 14 13:08:50 then someone else can enter names Oct 14 13:08:56 sure that would be cool. but it is a hard problem to solve Oct 14 13:09:04 Why's it hard? Oct 14 13:09:27 to many points to list. Oct 14 13:09:38 It's not. Oct 14 13:09:41 You decimate. Oct 14 13:09:47 Frankly, it sounds fun. Oct 14 13:09:54 Throw away 99.9% of points. Oct 14 13:10:00 Do the computation on those Oct 14 13:10:05 te rest Oct 14 13:10:12 SpeedEvil: do you implement it? Oct 14 13:10:16 No Oct 14 13:10:18 can OSM do directions? Oct 14 13:10:18 I mean in theory Oct 14 13:10:25 cbv: no Oct 14 13:10:29 cb22_: no Oct 14 13:10:29 what's OSM? Oct 14 13:10:33 cb22_: Not yet at least Oct 14 13:10:36 Open Street Map Oct 14 13:10:38 oh.. duh Oct 14 13:10:41 heh Oct 14 13:11:24 As it turns out, I'm a router guy... if there were an open-source database of actual GPS data, I'd enjoy munging it into an automatic directions program. Oct 14 13:11:30 cb22_: there are thingies that let you use the OSM data for routing - but they are a bit primitive at the moment. It is I think possible to load it into Oct 14 13:11:36 cb22_: some garmin devices Oct 14 13:11:47 xyzzy_bill: GPS data isn't helpful. Oct 14 13:11:56 why? Oct 14 13:12:03 xyzzy_bill: You have no metadata Oct 14 13:12:18 aren't they allowed to use yahoo images to fill in things? Oct 14 13:12:22 xyzzy_bill: You don't know if the track is a truck, a car, a bike, or a pedestiran. Oct 14 13:12:24 "Dear moko user, would you now please enter the name of this street?" Oct 14 13:12:26 mickey|mpc2500: Are there any issues with hardcoding it since you asked? Oct 14 13:12:36 xyzzy_bill: see [[openstreetmap]] on the wiki Oct 14 13:12:43 I wont have street names, but given the speed, I think I can tell what's a car. Oct 14 13:12:56 Maledictus: that too Oct 14 13:13:58 Ingore the 99.9% line - mischan Oct 14 13:14:02 SpeedEvil: Thanks... just read the wiki page Oct 14 13:14:27 And the linked ones - gps-trail I think Oct 14 13:15:35 In the US and NL there should soon be pretty complete maps in NL Oct 14 13:15:39 In the US and NL there should soon be pretty complete maps in OSM Oct 14 13:16:06 as the Tiger data import from the US gov is completing, and the AND data for NL has completed. Oct 14 13:16:50 SpeedEvil: That's awesome. Oct 14 13:17:34 SpeedEvil: when you went driving with your Neo and the gllin replacement, where, physically, did you locate the Neo? Oct 14 13:17:43 dashboard? Oct 14 13:18:20 Are the public funded maps in the public domain in NL? Oct 14 13:18:50 mickeyl, ping? Oct 14 13:20:09 Shoragan: Seems like he wants to be creative away from the compy ;) Oct 14 13:20:22 hmm Oct 14 13:20:23 DukeOfURL: yes Oct 14 13:20:39 DukeOfURL: it was not fixed - it may work better with a more 'upright' mount Oct 14 13:24:10 I think a application for live tagging Tracks would be good. So the co-driver can make tracks with tags while driving Oct 14 13:24:33 Yeah - there need to be several apps. Oct 14 13:24:50 On hyper-light-weight one that can sit in the background and maybe take notes at most Oct 14 13:24:54 have you got any more pretty graphs on the gps accuracy? Oct 14 13:24:59 One heavyweight mappers. Oct 14 13:25:02 One heavyweight mapper. Oct 14 13:25:29 With full editing and photogeotagging support. Oct 14 13:26:00 One routing program with capabilities to add tags Oct 14 13:26:31 The hope is that most users will install the really lightweight thing and keep it running. Oct 14 13:26:43 yeah, this ideas sounds good Oct 14 13:27:12 And it then uploads anonymised tracks to the OSM server after a time delay, with configurable 'blank' spots where the user lives. Oct 14 13:27:16 It turns out that my Dad is into GPS programming... http://jdmcox.com/ Oct 14 13:27:18 oh, btw, sdhc has been confirmed working on the neo? Oct 14 13:27:23 cb22_: yes Oct 14 13:27:26 He wrote USAPhotoMaps Oct 14 13:27:26 nice Oct 14 13:27:30 cb22_: someone had a 6G card working Oct 14 13:27:34 cool Oct 14 13:27:39 my 4gb should work fine then Oct 14 13:27:47 coupled with my spare p990 for 3g Oct 14 13:27:54 any reason to thing that 8gb cards wont work? Oct 14 13:28:00 And I wait for a bicycle holder for the neo which replaces my Garmin Oct 14 13:28:10 linux-bastler, heh so do i Oct 14 13:28:21 xyzzy_bill: Just that there are none at the moment. Oct 14 13:28:47 My neo comes tomorrow. That'll be the first thing I try. Oct 14 13:29:01 xyzzy_bill, not very patient ey? Oct 14 13:29:44 cb22_: Nope :-D Lack of patience has been pointed out as a character flaw since I was 2 years old. Oct 14 13:29:51 hehe Oct 14 13:30:02 * cb22_ is struggling to wait for gta02 Oct 14 13:30:07 its so tempting just to buy one now Oct 14 13:30:59 cb22_: Fortunately, it looks just like the gta01, right? I'll just sneak it on a credit card (I pay the bills), and my wife will never know about the upgrade... Oct 14 13:31:07 hehe Oct 14 13:31:30 xyzzy_bill, what was your order # btw? Oct 14 13:32:10 cb22_: #7089 Oct 14 13:33:18 xyzzy_bill: One or both of the buttons are transparent. Oct 14 13:33:36 xyzzy_bill: or translucent. I think that's the only visible difference. Oct 14 13:34:32 both AFAIK Oct 14 13:34:35 and they have LEDs Oct 14 13:34:59 Do youi know if the LEDs are connected to the PMU LED controls, or the CPU? Oct 14 13:35:08 #wikipedia-ru Oct 14 13:35:19 don't suppose someone here knows exactly how many phones have been sold? Oct 14 13:35:23 SpeedEvil, not sure Oct 14 13:41:22 is that new GPS chip Galileo capable? Oct 14 13:41:32 Vegar: no Oct 14 13:41:40 so many people are talking about a allways running GPS-Tracker. Doesn't make this the battery becoming empty frequently? Oct 14 13:41:51 Vegar: given that there is one (1) Gallileo test satellite up, it's quite irreelevant. Oct 14 13:41:52 the new gps drains 62mw... Oct 14 13:41:55 linuxperv: optional Oct 14 13:42:01 linux-bastler: optional Oct 14 13:42:11 SpeedEvil, really, work on your tab skills :) Oct 14 13:42:15 cb22_: plus the CPU. You're looking at 100mW or so. Oct 14 13:42:24 so many goddamed linux* people here! Oct 14 13:42:29 People need to pick more sensible differentiated names. Oct 14 13:42:42 cb22_: at best Oct 14 13:42:58 Vegar: galileo won't be operational for >>5 years Oct 14 13:43:14 SpeedEvil: I'm not so creative, so my name isn't so special *g* Oct 14 13:43:14 SpeedEvil: well.. yeah Oct 14 13:43:22 SpeedEvil: but that wasn't my question Oct 14 13:43:37 is that new GPS chip Galileo capable? Oct 14 13:43:38 Vegar: no Oct 14 13:44:05 And off course, If the phone is in a trouser pocket or something like this Oct 14 13:44:13 Debatably GLONASS might be of use. Oct 14 13:44:31 linux-bastler: the phone actually gets position okay in a pocket. Oct 14 13:45:24 SpeedEvil, i've got the oabi gllin running without a chroot :) Oct 14 13:46:56 is flashing the image for the local qemu still broker Oct 14 13:46:58 With GPRS up and running you can do stupid stuff like: Oct 14 13:47:18 why would you want glonass? Oct 14 13:47:27 tail -f /tmp/nmea|ssh server cat >/tmp/nmea Oct 14 13:47:34 cb22_: for better accuracy Oct 14 13:47:52 And then that lets you run GPSd on that named pipe on your server Oct 14 13:47:52 isn't it just russian gps Oct 14 13:48:07 and treat it as a 'local' GPS, though it's roaming. Oct 14 13:48:20 cb22_: it can sort-of be used as extra GPS satellites. Oct 14 13:48:47 Especially useful in poor satelltie visibility conditions. Oct 14 13:49:06 SpeedEvil: Oh, that's nice. I don't thought this would work because my Garmin eTrex Venture Cx is working pretty good if I use it on my bicycle or I keep it in my hand. But in a pocket it can't find enough satellites Oct 14 13:49:58 You will lose accuracy a bit. Oct 14 13:50:40 SpeedEvil, according to wikipedia, it has 25% coverage of the world? Oct 14 13:50:52 SpeedEvil: That's clear to me Oct 14 13:51:44 what about WAAS/EGNOS? The new chip supports those Oct 14 13:54:15 abraxa_: no issues. just thinking about whether i should make pulsesink/src the default via gconftool or not. Oct 14 13:54:18 Shoragan: pong Oct 14 13:56:17 mickey|mpc2500: Yes, that would be nice as it affects all gstreamer apps then Oct 14 13:57:18 abraxa_: ok, i'll do that then Oct 14 13:57:19 mickey|mpc2500: I would also like this because then we can set a nice buffer-/latency-time globally instead of having the apps hardcode it Oct 14 13:57:29 (see mailing list post I showed you) Oct 14 13:57:50 ah right. i kept meaning to ask you about the mailing list Oct 14 13:57:58 do you have the link offhand? Oct 14 13:58:04 i forgot to bookmark it Oct 14 13:58:47 kristian-m: yeah, gllin already can set the system time from gps time (and I think even does this by default) (just reading scrollback buffer) Oct 14 13:59:12 mickey|mpc2500: https://tango.0pointer.de/pipermail/pulseaudio-discuss/2007-July/000557.html Oct 14 14:00:00 right, thanks Oct 14 14:00:19 And yes, a lightweight OpenStreetMap assistance application is something I really want for my neo and would be willing to code once I have enough time. What I basically want is: List all existing ways nearby, show and record my gps location, show ways that already have a name and those that don't, then allow me to enter names for the latter Oct 14 14:01:07 mickey|mpc2500: Also, I guess I'll just submit the libgstmad patch to OE. Originally I wanted to wrap it up together with patches to libgstivorbis but the latter will require some more effort to trim back to 16 bit (which I didn't get the chance to do yet) Oct 14 14:04:55 after making openmoko-devel-image, the rootfs is the same file size as a few days ago. is my $OM broken, or have there not been any changes? Oct 14 14:06:21 abraxa_: right Oct 14 14:08:52 DukeOfURL: Did you do "make update"? Oct 14 14:09:05 abraxa_: yes Oct 14 14:09:24 make update-makefile;make setup;make update;make openmoko-devel-image Oct 14 14:10:34 DukeOfURL: Sounds good to me, so you should be set Oct 14 14:11:10 haven't seen any recompiles in several days, so I think something is broken here Oct 14 14:11:37 Hey. I'm just doing my first local-overlay, following directions on http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Application_Development_Crash_Course#Setting_Up_a_Local_Overlay Oct 14 14:12:07 This line in the tutorial fails for me: # cd build ; . ../setup-env ; bitbake scaredycat-openmoko-devel-image Oct 14 14:12:29 (where scaredycat is replaced with xyzzy_bill) Oct 14 14:12:46 I get: ERROR: BBFILE_PATTERN_upstream not defined Oct 14 14:12:46 ERROR: BBFILE_PATTERN_local not defined Oct 14 14:13:19 then, I get ERROR: No providers of build target xyzzy_bill-openmoko-devel-image (for []) Oct 14 14:13:52 This is probably pretty basic stuff, but I'm lost. Any ideas? Oct 14 14:16:23 xyzzy_bill source setup-env? Oct 14 14:16:54 printenv? Oct 14 14:17:43 DukeOfURL: You want me to dump my env here? It's about a page long. And, did you want to see my setup-env file, or should I re-execute it? Oct 14 14:18:14 no, just wondering if you got the environment variables... Oct 14 14:19:28 try bitbake psplash -c rebuild to check if the environment is ok Oct 14 14:22:28 DukeOfURL: Thanks... executing that now (in $OMDIR) Oct 14 14:22:53 should execute it in build Oct 14 14:23:21 DukeOfURL: ok, I'm doing it in build now Oct 14 14:25:57 in $OMDIR you do make, in build you do . ../setup-env then bitbake Oct 14 14:28:47 mickey|mpc2500: http://bugs.openembedded.org/show_bug.cgi?id=3155 - for when you have the time to commit it Oct 14 14:31:19 DukeOfURL: Looks like the problem was my name: xyzzy_bill. The '_' I put in the various config files and file names seems to have messed things up. Just using xyzzybill seems to work better. Oct 14 14:31:54 DukeOfURL: Thanks for your help! Oct 14 14:39:11 ner: so you want it to be what - 3000 pages? Oct 14 14:39:13 oops Oct 14 15:06:39 hello everyone Oct 14 15:07:20 xyzzy_bill: ah, yes. _ is special in bitbake for overrides :) Oct 14 15:08:32 i was wondering if i could waste a moment of your time? Oct 14 15:09:18 you already have, by asking to ask instead of just asking ;-) Oct 14 15:09:40 (just kidding, whassup?) Oct 14 15:10:17 I am looking at the Neo1973 I can not develop on it at this time as i am a student.. but i want to buy it now and am wondering how well it works as a phone... i looked at the site and it says developer only. Oct 14 15:10:25 Not. Oct 14 15:10:36 Some of the more recent builds may actually place calls. Oct 14 15:10:46 And you can develop on it using the emulator or even host compilation. Oct 14 15:11:02 But, as a functioning phone, a nokia 1100 beats it every way and is 1/10th the price. Oct 14 15:11:22 yeah i am returning an iphone today Oct 14 15:11:33 can't stand the closed software policy Oct 14 15:13:00 Well I thank you all for your time... I wish you well with the project and may opt in later on Oct 14 15:14:01 have fun johnnyboy Oct 14 15:14:13 thx you 2 Oct 14 15:15:59 * abraxa_ wishes more iPhone customers were like this Oct 14 15:16:10 or none at all :-) Oct 14 15:17:15 That would be in ideal world - can't ask for that, can we? ;) Oct 14 15:21:32 * rwhitby played with an iphone last night. I can see the attraction for the person who is happy with a locked in phone plan and doesn't care about adding functionality. Oct 14 15:21:48 yeah, same rwhitby Oct 14 15:21:57 it cant send stuff via bt. *lol* Oct 14 15:22:10 iphone user: hey guess what, i can pinch my screen Oct 14 15:22:15 neo user: i can use bluetooth Oct 14 15:22:17 lots of US phones have similar restrictions with BT though Oct 14 15:22:18 *owned* Oct 14 15:22:30 yes, the US tends to be fucked in that regard Oct 14 15:22:55 om build worked :) Oct 14 15:22:56 rwhitby: the iphone doesn't take kindly to viewing a large photo in the browser... the one I tried died after loading about 10% of my panorama Oct 14 15:22:58 yeah, I expected there would be a whole lot of tiny little frustrations with it. but most people don't know any better - I bet that 90% of phones with BT never exercise that functionality anyway. Oct 14 15:23:17 rwhitby: ... then again so did the N95 I tried too :) Oct 14 15:23:21 the iphone will not do well in SA if it cant send stuff via bt... Oct 14 15:23:22 believe me Oct 14 15:23:33 at least in the 14->26 year old age Oct 14 15:23:47 the subset of the population which actually knows about technology is very small. remember that 50% of the population are below average intelligence (by definition) Oct 14 15:23:55 (and they still buy phones) Oct 14 15:23:56 the 14-22 range in the UK seems to only want to use their phones as 80s-style boom boxes Oct 14 15:24:20 here the whole rage is transferring stuff Oct 14 15:25:20 yes, the phone-as-boom-box boom seems to have started here too in the last 2 months or so Oct 14 15:26:15 aye, Sugababes on tinny crap speakers really makes people Kool. Not. Oct 14 15:26:16 (I'm always tempted to take out my neo and blast these guys away ...) Oct 14 15:26:39 Henryk: your neo doubles as a lightsaber or just a general-purpose EMP device? Oct 14 15:26:48 hey mickeyl Oct 14 15:27:53 and hrw Oct 14 15:27:58 Stephmw: only as a rather powerful electrodynamic air pressure wave generator. oh, and I have just the right recording on it (Vivaldis Four Seasons, The Summer, Third Part) Oct 14 15:28:02 hi Stephmw Oct 14 15:28:19 * Stephmw waits patiently for his stitching software to piece his panoramas together Oct 14 15:28:23 ok, as I understand this, if I want to try building an app from oe to use on om, i would download the necesesary bitbake files for that app and it's deps, and do bitbake app.bb? Oct 14 15:29:11 AntonTakk: use the MokoMakefile, then bitbake the app (if it's already in openembedded) Oct 14 15:29:17 morning Oct 14 15:29:34 or make build-package- while you read the bitbake manual to learn how to use bitbake directly. Oct 14 15:29:36 use the mokomakefile how? Oct 14 15:29:49 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/MokoMakefile Oct 14 15:30:13 yeah, i already built an om image with the makefile Oct 14 15:30:40 then you're all set - just "make build-package-" or use the direct bitbake commands (that's described in that wiki page too) Oct 14 15:31:12 so make build-package-foo will download the bb files and such? Oct 14 15:31:26 AntonTakk: they are already downloaded Oct 14 15:31:31 you already have the bb file in your checkout that built the image Oct 14 15:31:31 ah Oct 14 15:31:43 that's the part i was missing, thanks Oct 14 15:31:49 np, have fun. Oct 14 15:32:12 AntonTakk: Just FYI - you can find them in openembedded/packages/ Oct 14 15:32:39 cool, thanks Oct 14 15:32:40 damn... i'm having my keyboard switched on and ready next to my computer all day, in case a nice melody comes to my mind... and all i'm playing is the Zelda theme... Oct 14 15:32:46 AntonTakk: and it is worthwhile learning how to use bitbake directly Oct 14 15:34:23 wansti: There could be worse. Playing "Barbie Girl", for example. Oct 14 15:35:22 abraxa_: you got a point there :-) Oct 14 15:35:38 must. gouge. out. brain. Aaaaaaargh· Oct 14 15:35:41 still i was hoping for something that lets me choose a license :-) Oct 14 15:36:06 Hehe Oct 14 15:37:02 I love how it's sunday afternoon and I see so many people working and being productive Oct 14 15:38:39 gotta *look* productive, otherwise we'd be doing housework with the wives :) Oct 14 15:39:45 And that's a bad thing? Last time I checked it's fun and provides its own special benefits *cough* ;) Oct 14 15:39:52 * mwester does housework - and washes dishes. Oct 14 15:40:08 * mwester has found it to be helpful in ensuring domestic peace and tranquility. Oct 14 15:40:32 Yup, aside from being a nice change from compy work Oct 14 15:40:54 Not to mention that pushing a vaccuum cleaner about is rather easier than many other tasks one might have to do... Oct 14 15:41:14 * Stephmw boggles Oct 14 15:41:28 time to check if this is the Twilight Zone Oct 14 15:42:11 * sagacis_ avoids housework and whines about gsmd not working Oct 14 15:42:38 My gsmd is still not working reliably. Am I missing any tricks, or are people just using the default build situation? Oct 14 15:42:40 someone should rewrite gsmd Oct 14 15:42:49 It works great from qpe... Oct 14 15:42:54 er, qtopia Oct 14 15:43:53 so would you mind a 5MB gllin ipkg ? Oct 14 15:44:50 sagacis_, yesterdays worked like a charm Oct 14 15:44:56 ..er..more or less Oct 14 15:45:05 I"m using yesterday's build Oct 14 15:45:09 hmm Oct 14 15:45:25 I always get errors on CFUN=1 or COPS Oct 14 15:45:39 mickeyl: 5MB for the oabi version+wrapper? Oct 14 15:45:52 only thing borked in my case is the flashing local image to the qemu Oct 14 15:45:59 abraxa_: yes Oct 14 15:46:05 it's ugly as hell Oct 14 15:46:06 but it works Oct 14 15:46:13 "this client has just vanished" is always the end of my gsm.log Oct 14 15:46:17 mickeyl: Sounds good to me - until eabi is out, thatis Oct 14 15:46:19 that is* Oct 14 15:46:25 *nod* Oct 14 15:46:28 mickeyl, but less ugly than chroot Oct 14 15:46:32 Shoragan: absolutely Oct 14 15:46:39 mickeyl: I'd want it Oct 14 15:46:45 mickeyl: I'd take any size of gllin Oct 14 15:46:46 ah, excellent food. Oct 14 15:46:55 stefan_schmidt: is Sean anywhere near? Oct 14 15:46:57 stefan_schmidt: what did you have? Oct 14 15:47:02 mickeyl: no Oct 14 15:47:10 stefan_schmidt: k, nm. i'll write an emai Oct 14 15:47:19 wansti: Oldtimer Big mouth Burger with french fries Oct 14 15:47:29 yay. a classic :-) Oct 14 15:47:32 mickeyl: better Oct 14 15:47:34 (but my neo only has 2.7 MB free) Oct 14 15:47:34 ooo...greasy Oct 14 15:47:48 Henryk: You don't need the games... Oct 14 15:47:57 wansti: You know, I'm a bit difficult with food. And being in asia... Oct 14 15:48:06 sagacis: actually that's not the games but the mono i'm working with :) Oct 14 15:48:13 wansti: But I work on it. Already tried some spicy stuff Oct 14 15:48:30 stefan_schmidt: yeah, better get used to it :-P Oct 14 15:48:34 Henryk, cool, hows mono on the neo? Oct 14 15:48:43 wansti: :) Oct 14 15:48:49 Henryk: Ah, yes. Mono is pretty large. Can you move it to the sd card? Oct 14 15:48:52 mickeyl: I'll take a 5MB gllin. Oct 14 15:49:11 aww. darn, edje failed to build :-\ Oct 14 15:49:19 wansti: It's a question of what. I mean alphaone already had chciken feed. But normally it is just a psychology problem Oct 14 15:49:29 psychological Oct 14 15:49:38 ~spell psychological Oct 14 15:49:40 'psychological' may be spelled correctly Oct 14 15:49:43 stefan_schmidt: wtf? chicken feed?! Oct 14 15:49:50 feet Oct 14 15:49:58 damn Oct 14 15:50:03 ugh, that's even worse :-) Oct 14 15:50:10 ...right? Oct 14 15:50:17 sagacis: in principle, yes. but for some frickin reason the sd card is formatted with vfat, so I created an ext3 fs in a image on the card and mount that with the loop device and that is ugly. (That was necessary when there was still a mono packaging bug which is now resolved and makes it possible to install everything that's necessary for me and still have ~3MB free) Oct 14 15:50:19 wansti: Ask him Oct 14 15:50:26 wansti: stefan_schmidt lost his ability to spell any word with more than three letters somewhere last night. Oct 14 15:50:27 stefan_schmidt: i am :-P Oct 14 15:50:37 Henryk: I reformatted my sd card to ext3 Oct 14 15:50:42 ~praise Shoragan ... he knows why Oct 14 15:50:43 All hail Shoragan ... he knows why! Oct 14 15:50:49 alphaone: i assume the drinks were more to his taste thahn the food, then :-) Oct 14 15:50:57 * Shoragan bows Oct 14 15:51:02 Sup3rkiddo: does work, I even had a gtk sharp hello world running, oh and bless which is a gtk-sharp hex editor, though it was not too useful at 640x480 Oct 14 15:51:22 wansti: Just had taiwan beer. They serve it in a 1l bottle Oct 14 15:51:25 Sup3rkiddo: currently i'm pestered by https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=322722 which only occurs in some programs, such as the one i want to run Oct 14 15:51:26 heh, nice... Oct 14 15:51:26 * mickeyl and wife going to an indian restaurant now Oct 14 15:51:27 Henryk: how's the speed of trhat? Oct 14 15:51:29 l8er Oct 14 15:51:39 bon appetit Oct 14 15:51:40 mm..dosas rock Oct 14 15:51:43 merci Oct 14 15:51:52 stefan_schmidt: hehe Oct 14 15:51:58 mickey|dinner, ask for dosas Oct 14 15:52:09 ok Oct 14 15:52:33 BryceLeo: startup time is somewhat long but everything's mostly fluffy after that. too bad that there's no ahead-of-time compilation available for mono for arm Oct 14 15:52:57 yeah, that would be nice Oct 14 15:53:19 BryceLeo: did you do any testing with kexec yet? Oct 14 15:54:20 mwester yeah, it's pretty neat, it really just takes out the bios step of the reboot. It still runs a full shutdown. And since my bios takes a full 2 seconds to post there's not a real benefit, but it is pretty neat Oct 14 15:55:14 BryceLeo: you were able to switch kernels with it? Oct 14 15:55:20 yup Oct 14 15:55:25 nice Oct 14 15:55:34 On the neo, the hope would be for very fast crash recovery, assuming the drivers all behave. I've not tested beyond determining the need for the ARM ATAGs kexec patch. Oct 14 15:55:41 it was really cool Oct 14 15:56:07 I also have a hack/patch that allows one to change the command line for the new kernel on ARM devices (neo) Oct 14 15:57:42 that's pretty sweet, mwester is it a kexec port, or a new method? Oct 14 15:58:36 I just patched kexec. Oct 14 15:58:39 Sup3rkiddo, what are dosas? Oct 14 15:58:55 cb22: Indian pancakes/crepes Oct 14 15:59:03 ahh cool, sweet Oct 14 15:59:10 Actually, it rather sidesteps kexec and twiddles the command line in the atags buffer directly, via sysfs. Oct 14 15:59:54 cb22, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dosa Oct 14 16:00:13 The right way to do it would be to patch the kexec-tools userspace stuff, along with the kernel interface. I'll get to that, but since the sysfs technique works so well, there's a lack of urgency. Sure is nice for testing new kernels, though. Oct 14 16:02:11 heh, yeah mwester it should be convienent Oct 14 16:15:09 bye all Oct 14 16:43:44 * guri_ needs to devirginate Neo GTA01b4.....anyone willing to help? Oct 14 16:46:02 guri_: Devirginate as in... flashing a rootfs? Oct 14 16:46:22 abraxa_, as in "start from scratch using the debug board" :( Oct 14 16:46:38 i have a fux0red uboot_env Oct 14 16:46:46 Ouchie Oct 14 16:46:55 I have no experience with that, sorry :( Oct 14 16:47:13 abraxa_, yup. and I'm proving to be a bit of an idiot generally.... Oct 14 16:47:52 "roh" got me as far as setting up with the board, but every time I look at the devirginate README i get scared/confused Oct 14 16:48:41 josch: http://celtune.morb-design.com/images/fic-gta01/Openmoko-celtune-custom-image-glibc-ipk-P1-Oktober-Snapshot-20071014-fic-gta01.rootfs.jffs2 Oct 14 16:48:56 but I was reading in the mail-digest today that someone in the US is in the same position but has no debug kit so I don't fell too bad ;) Oct 14 16:49:06 sorry Oct 14 16:49:07 s/fell/feel Oct 14 16:49:45 wrong tab Oct 14 16:53:18 i think I will wait until I can contact Werner, as there's a good example config in the SVN from him....hmmmm Oct 14 16:55:03 guri_: If I were you I'd just try. There's virtually no way to screw it up more than it already is Oct 14 16:55:49 abraxa_, true....just wondering if I should spend my only free night of the week doing that....or something less geekyu Oct 14 16:56:20 guri_: Do whatever makes you happy and smile :) Oct 14 16:57:41 from past experience, getting really drunk and *then* doing something all out is the best way....that's how I ended up one morning with an Ubuntu bootscreen and couldn't remember how ;) Oct 14 16:57:59 rofl Oct 14 16:58:35 and also how one morning UPS turned up with a box full of openmoko kit Oct 14 16:58:51 I had to check my credit card statement! Oct 14 16:59:02 the last time i did that, i was hacking kernel. and those patches were applied. you should be scared now. :) Oct 14 16:59:32 juri_: I guess you hit the Balmer curve while doing that Oct 14 16:59:52 juri_, i've done some of my "best" work drunk....so if you're gettng incorrect mobile settings in Belgium....I apologise Oct 14 17:00:02 (how the HECK people came up with that term to honor Balmer is *SO* beyond me) Oct 14 17:00:17 he deserves no honour! Oct 14 17:00:23 balmer is all about the developers, developers, developers, developers! Oct 14 17:00:23 wooden spoon Oct 14 17:00:24 Exactly! Oct 14 17:00:30 He doesn't! Oct 14 17:04:04 guri_: can't you just overwrite the uboot-env with a working one via dfu? Oct 14 17:04:31 cesarb, unfortunately not. that's been tried too Oct 14 17:05:08 and all i *still* get is a pretty penguin image in the top left of screen and some unintelligible text :( Oct 14 17:05:22 guri_: not even the "boot" and "factory reset" options? Oct 14 17:05:54 i get "Bad Magic Number" and an almost immediate power-off or back to bootscreen using "Factory Reset" Oct 14 17:06:13 was chatting to roh about this on Thursday and he suggested getting debug board setup Oct 14 17:06:34 (random plug: I have a patch on bug 765 to add also "set console to usb" and others to that default menu, to help recovery in these situations. It only needs more testing before harald can add it to the build) Oct 14 17:06:41 I'm hoping it's not a serious hardware fault Oct 14 17:06:47 any big improvments to moko in the last week? Oct 14 17:06:55 cesarb, cool. that would be v. helpful Oct 14 17:07:21 guri_: dfu-util upload to a numbered (not named) partition doesn't work? Oct 14 17:07:24 I also noticed Harald pushing for a script today on the message list Oct 14 17:08:13 guri_: looks like I missed that message... do you have an archive link? Oct 14 17:08:19 ceasrb, again. tried that. I can sometimes use names but always using numbered for the last 2 attempts....better, but no cigar. Also have to spec -d(evice) Oct 14 17:08:41 cesarb, looking... Oct 14 17:09:22 guri_: truly a stick situation then... that's why we really need to add the "console to usb" and "console to serial" options to the hardcoded default menu Oct 14 17:09:41 guri_: since that would help recovery on almost all situations where you can get to the menu Oct 14 17:10:16 cesarb, erm....Vol4, issue 8. Message 4 (i think) Oct 14 17:11:09 cesarb, yes. that would be great! I have GTA1b4 and thought that's what the boot menu was *supposed* to look like. But after I flashed the rootfs I got this....and now no further Oct 14 17:11:29 guri_: btw, you don't really need to devirginate... if you have the debug board, you have the serial, which is enough to recover if you can get as far as the menu Oct 14 17:12:22 guri_: and it's way less complex to do than a full devirginate (which involves loading a bootstrap lowlevel setup, setting a breakpoint after it, loading uboot in memory, and releasing the breakpoint) Oct 14 17:12:59 cesarb, aha!.....so my first task is to eat, buy alcohol, drink until I remember how and what I want to do and then just start with flash boot, flash root/kernel!!! Oct 14 17:13:05 guri_: you just have to repartition, save the environment offset in the OOB data, and save the environment Oct 14 17:14:08 * guri_ will be right back ;) Oct 14 17:14:23 guri_: or repartition, save the environment offset in the OOB data, dfu flash a working enviroment, and set the partitioning environment variable on it by hand Oct 14 17:15:39 cesarb, again I am in wonder at this channel!.....no (visible) trolls and lots of helpful people!!! I will see what I can achieve before deflowerment! Oct 14 17:16:15 I was aiming at application development, but seem to be getting into system development......gargh! Oct 14 17:16:18 guri_: it's usually that way on more technical channels Oct 14 17:16:28 guri_: hah, always happens Oct 14 17:16:45 thanks again.....back later (hopefully) Oct 14 17:16:47 guri_: I bought a new computer and installed ubuntu which "just works" so I wouldn't have to play with lowlevel stuff Oct 14 17:16:58 guri_: ended up writing an ethernet driver for a counterfeit NIC Oct 14 17:17:17 cesarb, yeah, the old "contradiction in terms" with *nix ;) Oct 14 17:18:13 cesarb: :D Oct 14 17:19:38 Does it have bluetooth? Oct 14 17:20:28 today's creative output so far: http://wansti.homelinux.net/files/tmp/autumn_prelude.mp3 Oct 14 17:20:43 * cesarb wonders were did aloril's auto-greet script go Oct 14 17:21:27 It was murdered. Oct 14 17:21:51 PP|Spydon: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (and also SH1, SH1_FAQ, Neo1973, Developer_preview and Neo1973_Hardware#GTA01Bv4 pages) Oct 14 17:22:04 PP|Spydon: (at least that's what the autogreet script should have said) Oct 14 17:22:12 wansti: interesting Oct 14 17:22:41 it didn't say anything about those pages :P Oct 14 17:22:51 pretty simple, actually Oct 14 17:23:06 YEEEEEEEHO it has bluetooth! Oct 14 17:23:16 I was really scared for a while Oct 14 17:23:25 it? Oct 14 17:23:31 not a she or a he? :< Oct 14 17:23:39 lol :P Oct 14 17:47:16 openmoko: 03laforge * r3162 10/trunk/src/target/u-boot/patches/ (4 files): re-sync our start.S changes with mainline u-boot Oct 14 18:13:02 Oh man Oct 14 18:13:11 Theming GTK is such a royal pain in the arse Oct 14 18:13:15 *kicks it* Oct 14 19:25:06 hello Oct 14 19:26:16 Ellos Oct 14 19:26:30 ellos Oct 14 19:27:02 hi, Oct 14 19:27:30 anyone is having some problems with the gsmd??? Oct 14 19:30:16 hello?? Oct 14 19:31:07 bl4d3: I am. Oct 14 19:31:08 I think everyone is. Oct 14 19:31:41 Especially those who don't have Neo yet ;) Oct 14 19:31:58 do you have problems with gsmd?? Oct 14 19:32:00 even those that do -- I know the guy that has one down the hall from me @ work can't make a call. Oct 14 19:32:18 I can't get it to start. Oct 14 19:33:07 my problem is that gsmd is not working when i activate the pin request Oct 14 19:33:26 I don't have a pin, but I get the same thing Oct 14 19:33:52 For a while, it would work if I put '/etc/init.d/gsmd restart' in /etc/matchbox/session before the dialer, but no longer. Oct 14 19:34:24 Heh. It worked this time, but I had to manually start it up. Oct 14 19:35:40 But crashed before dialing Oct 14 19:36:06 i've got the same problem... Oct 14 19:36:16 bl4d3: basically gsmd needs a rewrite. any volunteers? Oct 14 19:36:28 I'm considering it. Oct 14 19:36:34 me too Oct 14 19:36:36 I could write it in python! ;D Oct 14 19:36:53 i'm already rewriting it for d-bus Oct 14 19:37:06 we already have python gsmd bindings Oct 14 19:37:07 hehe Oct 14 19:37:16 C is the best way to do it Oct 14 19:37:20 sagacis: the most promising idea currently includes a rewrite in vala Oct 14 19:37:42 bl4d3: no, C is exactly not the best language, because gsmd included lots and lots of string handling Oct 14 19:37:48 Hi all! Oct 14 19:37:48 * ljp thinks Qt would be the best way to do it Oct 14 19:37:53 Writchie: Do you have code/patches shared somwhere? Oct 14 19:37:55 ljp hahahaaaa Oct 14 19:38:11 not yet - i expect one or two weeks Oct 14 19:38:22 Did anybody encaunter any problems during Media Player startup on emulator? Oct 14 19:38:25 ljp, the qtopia is working well for me. It has some issues with the fact that I run it on the sd card with a symlink so I can't find songs, but it works as a phone. Oct 14 19:38:39 ljp, it still won't switch cells, tho Oct 14 19:38:58 weird. I tested that and worked fine for me Oct 14 19:39:04 ljp: qt is completely unacceptable to those who need to be able to run proprietary software applications Oct 14 19:39:09 It looks like my problem is the openmoko dialer app. My gsmd isn't crashsing if I use libgsm-tool. Oct 14 19:39:16 gsm roaming is a function of the modem and should work regardless of the GUI Oct 14 19:39:18 if you use C you can improve the battery life Oct 14 19:39:27 vala looks cool Oct 14 19:39:53 Henryk, ljp, I assume it was cell (or band) switching. WHen driving, I get "No network available" every few miles. Oct 14 19:39:58 nbd: my thought exactly! Oct 14 19:40:18 When I walk out of my building at work (where there's a repeater), at about 50 meters, I lose the signal. Oct 14 19:40:23 sagacis_: t-mobile usa by any chance? Oct 14 19:40:26 compiled OO without the crappiness of C++ Oct 14 19:40:27 i like it Oct 14 19:40:28 Writchie: ATT Oct 14 19:40:44 lack of 850 is probably the cause. Oct 14 19:40:47 xcingular Oct 14 19:41:22 the only reasonably good mobile gsm coverage in US pretty much requires both 850 and 1900 Oct 14 19:41:24 Writchie: Maybe, but sometimes it works OK. It's all about transitions, unless every OTHER tower is 1900... Oct 14 19:41:49 * sagacis_ realizes that Cingular may have done exactly that. Oct 14 19:41:54 sagacis_: when you roam outside of a 1900 cell you may need 850 for the gaps Oct 14 19:42:05 right. Oct 14 19:42:15 1900 is really designed as a supplement for dense areas, not the primary coverage. Oct 14 19:42:39 a good 1900 networks requires 4 times as many towers Oct 14 19:42:41 as 850 Oct 14 19:43:01 900 was the original Oct 14 19:43:04 which is why t-mobile has lots of roaming agreements on 850 nets D: Oct 14 19:43:08 and it was more than fine for a long time Oct 14 19:43:10 Writchie: wrong. Oct 14 19:43:46 ljp: what wrong Oct 14 19:43:51 and who wants proprietary software on thei neo anyway Oct 14 19:43:54 Writchie: the ratio Oct 14 19:44:00 ljp: I do. Oct 14 19:44:05 i do Oct 14 19:44:11 ljp: I'd pay a moderate amount for tomtom Oct 14 19:44:12 wrong about qt being unacceptable for proprietary software Oct 14 19:44:14 me as well ;) (nav s/w) Oct 14 19:44:23 SpeedEvil: same Oct 14 19:44:23 ljp: I do - navigation software Oct 14 19:44:28 =D Oct 14 19:44:49 ehhhh.. right. and no one can write a free navigation app hey Oct 14 19:44:59 The problem isn't the app - it's the map Oct 14 19:45:08 a rhyme! Oct 14 19:45:20 I'll go with the commercial package (w/ complete and sane maps) thanks Oct 14 19:45:24 Openstreetmap is about the best you get. Oct 14 19:45:30 ljp: openstreetmap lack coverage here Oct 14 19:45:31 Writchie: Ok, I'll buy that my problem is 850 band. That's a bummer. Oct 14 19:45:41 SpeedEvil: I would prefer google maps rather Oct 14 19:45:45 which will be good in a few months for the US, and now for NL Oct 14 19:45:51 (there are compleete apps) Oct 14 19:45:56 (there are compleete maps) Oct 14 19:46:00 sagacis-: i fully expect this will be fixed in a modem software release Oct 14 19:46:20 The problem is that I cannot run Media Player on emulator, and the only thing I can see is some dialog visible for very short period of time showing some text containing "pulseaudio" and "gstreamer". Oct 14 19:46:26 Writchie: Until then, I'll have to keep carrying my 3595 while driving. Oct 14 19:46:48 Orzech_: known problem, install gst-plugins-pulse Oct 14 19:46:53 sagacis_: older tribands vs. quadbands behave similarly Oct 14 19:47:01 Orzech_: not emulator-related Oct 14 19:47:01 Henryk, oks, thanks Oct 14 19:47:06 ok Oct 14 19:47:16 right now the neo is a triband (original definition 900/1800/1900) Oct 14 19:47:20 Writchie: I hadn't considered that a possibility before, but it seems obvious.... Oct 14 19:47:32 Writchie: And no 900 in my area. Oct 14 19:47:41 no 900 in US Oct 14 19:48:12 er Oct 14 19:48:13 sagacis_: some people can receive inbound on 1900 but not originate unless 850 is present. Oct 14 19:48:17 yes, there was something about the modem in the neo being quad-band on paper but not really so. (e.g. you can use it with all four bands, but only three at a time without soldering) Oct 14 19:48:18 wasn't it sold as quad? Oct 14 19:48:30 yes Oct 14 19:48:33 anrp: i thought so, too Oct 14 19:48:37 Henryk, will I be able to write audio player for OpenMoko? I mean, I'd like to write it as my Engineer Thesis and wonder, wether OM and itsAPI is mature enough... Oct 14 19:48:39 Henryk: that better not be the case. Oct 14 19:49:00 Orzech_: there already is an audio player Oct 14 19:49:01 and i could originate calls with my triband phone in the us just fine Oct 14 19:49:30 Henryk, ok, but I'd like to write my own... ;) Oct 14 19:49:58 Orzech_: you are studying on pwr? Oct 14 19:50:06 YEP :D Oct 14 19:50:17 hrw|tv, so are you? :) Oct 14 19:50:32 Orzech_: no Oct 14 19:50:43 hrw|tv, How did you guess then? Oct 14 19:50:45 Orzech_: find something better then audio player Oct 14 19:50:55 buz: not a problem in us - it was canada - rogers IIRC Oct 14 19:51:02 Orzech_: study + revdns in wrocław Oct 14 19:51:20 hrw|tv, nah, ofcource -.- Oct 14 19:51:24 Orzech_: create good video player maybe? Oct 14 19:51:35 hrw|tv, but whats wrong with audio player? Oct 14 19:51:46 hrw|tv: oh yes, I'd like to be able to play full hd h.264 on the neo! Oct 14 19:51:47 hrw|tv, I don't understand... Oct 14 19:52:42 Orzech_: there is one already ;) Oct 14 19:53:03 ya, choice is bad Oct 14 19:53:04 and writing audio player is quite easy today.. gstreamer do most of work.. Oct 14 19:53:50 ljp: he wants to write it as Engineer Thesis. audio player sounds like too easy for thesis ;) Oct 14 19:55:03 hrw|tv, But I don't care.. :) If I won't like it, there will be no problem with writing my own Oct 14 19:55:55 hrw|tv, besides, I like music more than movies :P Oct 14 19:56:08 ;) Oct 14 19:56:25 and more music fits on 1GB sdcard then movies ;) Oct 14 19:56:27 hrw|tv: depends on if he wants to include writing codecs :) Oct 14 19:56:46 ljp: right! Oct 14 19:56:51 hrw|tv, ;) Oct 14 19:57:09 that would be interesting... mpeg audio, ogg, flac, sid, sap player written from scratch Oct 14 19:58:06 hrw|tv, however, if OM doesn't have video player, it would be nice idea to write one :) Oct 14 19:58:07 * hrw|tv wants sid/mod/sap/ay player (where mod == protracker, s3m, xm. digibooster (pro) support optional) Oct 14 19:59:10 but nobody answered me, wether OM and its API are mature enough... while my main target will be to write app successfully, otherwise they won't give me Engineer title :D Oct 14 20:00:47 use Qtopia. its mature Oct 14 20:00:51 Orzech_: learn MVC and write M and C. View will be last Oct 14 20:01:25 ljp: and this is #openmoko not #qtopia ;) Oct 14 20:01:30 Where did you find serial number? my number is quite different .P Oct 14 20:01:31 :P Oct 14 20:01:51 * hrw|tv back to movie Oct 14 20:02:18 openmoko is also distro Oct 14 20:02:23 *lol* heh, non-"entered" talk in the pipeline, please ignore :P Oct 14 20:02:46 besides, I dont see anywhere it says I cannot speak of qtopia Oct 14 20:05:34 so, what is the current focus of development? Oct 14 20:05:34 ljp: isn't qtopia just another rootfs on the openmoko kernel ? Oct 14 20:05:55 (from the "why is it on topic here" point of view) Oct 14 20:06:34 the rootfs is pretty similar Oct 14 20:07:17 yeah, you could even say it's just like KDE and Gnome options when installing CentOS or Fedora ... Oct 14 20:09:51 rwhitby: i agree its like KDE vs. Gnome except for incompatible licensing on lower layers Oct 14 20:11:08 Writchie: you mean that the LGPL used by OpenMoko is not as free (in the FSF's definition of the word) as the GPL option of the Qtopia licensing ;-) Oct 14 20:11:13 and except for the thing where qtopia doesn't use X so it's all or nothing Oct 14 20:11:16 why do you think there's "licensing on lower layers" Oct 14 20:11:35 * rwhitby is intentionally inflamatory, cause he is bored Oct 14 20:12:15 neither the lgpl or gpl are free licences.. it would need to be somehting like bsd for that Oct 14 20:12:28 ScaredyCat: right on! Oct 14 20:12:53 ScaredyCat: actually, even BSD isn't free, cause I have to put that attribution in there don't I? Oct 14 20:13:12 How about the new MIT license? Oct 14 20:13:16 rwhitby: the issue for me and some others is what non-gpl applications can be run/sold/developed/etc. on the platform Oct 14 20:13:37 the only free license is public domain Oct 14 20:13:38 :P Oct 14 20:13:44 lgpl allows that to happen. GPL does not. Oct 14 20:13:46 One day, people will start to understand that when they say "free", they all mean different things, so they should just stop doing that. :) Oct 14 20:14:04 Writchie: ah, but freedom to create non-free applications is a stated goal of OpenMoko Oct 14 20:14:05 nbd: except in France Oct 14 20:14:19 hehe Oct 14 20:14:20 rwhitby: exactly Oct 14 20:14:24 nbd: which explicitly disallows you from giving up your copyright rights, so public domain is a noop. Oct 14 20:14:32 mm.. mit , but bsd is freeer than gpl/lgpl Oct 14 20:14:44 cjb: that's weird Oct 14 20:14:46 * anrp spots some sparks Oct 14 20:15:00 nowhere is the stated goal of OpenMoko restricted to necessarily being able to do that without paying licensing fees Oct 14 20:15:10 nbd: it's common in many duristictions, not just France. there are even some who claim that it's not possible in the US either. Oct 14 20:15:13 ScaredyCat: imho one is more free and one leads to more free code Oct 14 20:15:28 nbd: I agree... Oct 14 20:15:29 because the US copyright law doesn't mention being able to put things into the public domain at all. it just says it's this place where expired works go. Oct 14 20:15:40 rwhitby: yes - trolltech can do what they like and charge whatever they like Oct 14 20:15:44 yes: BSD gives personal freedom, GPL gives societal freedom. Oct 14 20:15:46 mjr: same story about x using the framebuffer. its all or nothing Oct 14 20:15:55 it's incredible that more people don't realize this. Oct 14 20:15:55 but people say that gpl == freedom, when it doesn't Oct 14 20:16:07 one can create commercial apps for OpenMoko with LGPL and one can create commercial apps for OpenMoko with Qtopia - the only difference is the control over the price you have to pay (and therefore pass on to the customer) Oct 14 20:16:25 ScaredyCat: shrug. neither does BSD. they're all meaningless statements. Oct 14 20:16:41 ScaredyCat: what you mean when you say that is "I prefer to lean towards individual freedom instead of group freedom". Oct 14 20:16:44 gpl == free software Oct 14 20:16:51 which is fine. but let's not say that neither is "free". Oct 14 20:16:51 rwhitby: exactly right - and some do not want to pay trolltech anymore than microsoft Oct 14 20:16:54 2 things Oct 14 20:16:57 no ljp Oct 14 20:17:02 ljp: Free(TM) software (trademarked by FSF) Oct 14 20:17:05 and cjb no Oct 14 20:17:21 Writchie: ah, microsoft is different, you don't get the source. Oct 14 20:17:30 rwhitby: or symbion Oct 14 20:17:43 do you get the source for symbian? Oct 14 20:17:46 rwhitby: you can get the source from microsoft - that isn't the issue Oct 14 20:17:58 Writchie: not under the GPL you can't Oct 14 20:18:02 ScaredyCat: did you have a reason for disagreeing? Oct 14 20:18:15 yes Oct 14 20:18:39 * rwhitby has achieved his goal of finding a way to pass the next 15 minutes while waiting for the hotel washing machine to finish it's cycle ... Oct 14 20:18:40 ScaredyCat: what you mean when you say that is "I prefer to lean towards individual freedom instead of group freedom". Oct 14 20:18:51 is inaccurate Oct 14 20:18:56 why? Oct 14 20:19:04 so, what is the current focus of development? Oct 14 20:19:13 also, commercial != proprietary Oct 14 20:19:18 "free" and "open source" have lost a lot meeting once the marketing pukes got involved Oct 14 20:19:19 matthew_: licensing, obviously ;-) Oct 14 20:19:31 yay, a GPL vs BSD flamewar. let's bring theo into this ;) Oct 14 20:19:32 just because I said that I believe that the bsd licence is freeer does not mean "I prefer to lean towards individual freedom instead of group freedom" Oct 14 20:19:38 s/meeting/meaning/ Oct 14 20:19:38 Writchie: "free" had meaning before the FSF got involved Oct 14 20:19:38 Writchie meant: "free" and "open source" have lost a lot meaning once the marketing pukes got involved Oct 14 20:19:39 but it does. Oct 14 20:19:48 rwhitby: yeah, unfortunately i think you are right Oct 14 20:20:27 no it doesn;t/.. Oct 14 20:20:30 it's fact Oct 14 20:20:34 ScaredyCat: the utopia of the GPL is that there is only free software, the utopia of BSD is that everyone gets to decide for themselves. you are saying that you care more about individuals making personal choices than about societies making group choices. Oct 14 20:20:42 "Free(TM, FSF)" is a very specific meaning. "free" (without the TM) means different things to different people Oct 14 20:20:53 ScaredyCat: asserting your disagreement without explanation is not very convcing. Oct 14 20:20:54 the gpl has a larger set of requirements to be met Oct 14 20:20:58 yes. Oct 14 20:21:09 because it is trying to do something harder than individual freedom. Oct 14 20:21:24 it's trying to construct a society of freedom. of course that involves a larger set of requirements. Oct 14 20:21:25 bsd basically says do whatever, keep attribtion Oct 14 20:21:28 So LPGL and qtopia are open source. microsoft and symbian (as far as I know) are not. Oct 14 20:21:29 it tries to keep the software free Oct 14 20:21:40 this doesn't contradict BSD being about individual freedom only. Oct 14 20:22:43 MIT says do whatever, just keep the copyright - you don't even have to tell people that you've kept the copyright. Oct 14 20:23:07 for me bsd/mit are not a choice when I choose license for my own (as written by me) software - it is too easy to make anything with it without giving back Oct 14 20:23:12 no cjb - you attributed that philosopy to ME Oct 14 20:23:20 so for my stuff I prefer lgpl/gpl Oct 14 20:23:51 ScaredyCat: I attribute that philosophy to the license you prefer. There wouldn't be much point in preferring a license whose philosophy you disagree with. Oct 14 20:23:55 * Writchie agrees with hrw|tv's reasoning Oct 14 20:24:01 I generally don;t care. If someone finds my stuff useful then good for them Oct 14 20:24:12 hrw|tv: there are cases where someone using my BSD licensed software may be more profitable for me (and better feed my family) than someone using by GPL'd software (and I do release both) Oct 14 20:24:22 s/by/my/ Oct 14 20:24:23 rwhitby meant: hrw|tv: there are cases where someone using my BSD licensed software may be more profitable for me (and better feed my family) than someone using my GPL'd software (and I do release both) Oct 14 20:25:04 I also produce proprietary software. Oct 14 20:25:17 rwhitby: if someone want to make profit from my code he can contact me to discuss about license change Oct 14 20:25:35 hrw|tv: not if you've incorporated or derived from GPL though ... Oct 14 20:25:36 with (l)gpl you can still make profit from my code. Oct 14 20:26:11 only in some specific business models Oct 14 20:26:12 (l)gpl does not tell 'do not make profit' - it tell 'give same rights as you got' Oct 14 20:26:33 the gpl doesn't stop you making profit Oct 14 20:26:34 yes, and you can make profit through some open source compatible business models by doing that Oct 14 20:26:45 many business models are not open source compatible Oct 14 20:27:03 freedom is being able to choose amongst any of those business models ;-) Oct 14 20:27:04 s/many/most/ Oct 14 20:27:31 (note that "freedom" != "Free (TM, FSF)" Oct 14 20:27:35 open source business models are bunk Oct 14 20:27:36 rwhitby: and if some XCV company would want to make profit from my (l)gpl code they can contact me about selling them code under bsd/mit license Oct 14 20:27:58 hrw|tv: again, not if your code incorporates or is derived from GPL code of others Oct 14 20:28:05 but once you release it under bsd/mit - that's it Oct 14 20:28:23 (or links to, for that matter) Oct 14 20:28:37 I know Oct 14 20:29:22 so one could in an inflammatory way say that using GPL'd code has restricted your freedom (where "freedom" != "Free(TM,FSF)) Oct 14 20:30:04 it doesn't have to be imflamatory, especially if it's true :) Oct 14 20:30:06 what are these profitable open source companies? Oct 14 20:30:07 rwhitby: absoluetly Oct 14 20:30:19 redhat for one Oct 14 20:30:27 * rwhitby goes to check the washing Oct 14 20:30:38 anyway I can ignore that stuff for now. Oct 14 20:30:40 yeah, but redhad did a bucket load of stuff Oct 14 20:30:57 years passed since I wrote application from start to end. Oct 14 20:31:07 ok, so there's one. Oct 14 20:31:19 the two that came to mind for me were novell and sun microsystems. Oct 14 20:31:31 mostly do extra functionality for apps or fixing bugs or other such stuff Oct 14 20:32:02 Novell's trading at 7.89, Sun at 6.23. Redhat at 21.39. Oct 14 20:32:07 so code whhich I write is licensed how app is licensed Oct 14 20:32:30 Writchie: Redhat is not entirely an open-source company. Oct 14 20:32:41 their biggest profit source, Red Hat Network, is proprietary software. Oct 14 20:32:43 So best case scenario you are a somewhat successful company, Oct 14 20:32:50 hi, Phase_1_Software_Testing hasn't been updated in a while, what repo should i look at to get latest stuff? Oct 14 20:32:55 hi Oct 14 20:33:22 matthew_: Trolltech is Oct 14 20:33:58 ljp: and profitable? Oct 14 20:34:01 mmm.... Oct 14 20:34:10 who have a rootfs image for a mio a701, include zImage? Oct 14 20:34:11 hrw|tv: me too - I rarely get to choose the licensing Oct 14 20:34:13 rwhitby: I'd prefer to label that as "using GPL'd code has restricted your personal freedom", as above. Oct 14 20:34:17 I think the personal/grou2 downloaded from http://fabrice.bellard.free.fr/qemu/download.html (the binaries) 1b2 loaded to the graphic interface, but I feel the interface a bit unresponsible (maybe an issue by emulation.) Thanks to Fernando by the Qemu 0.8.2 Ubuntu issue tip. Oct 14 20:34:25 cjb: fully agree with that statement Oct 14 20:34:25 trolltech is losing money, and hasn't even gone public Oct 14 20:34:34 new kernel - ! reboot!! Oct 14 20:34:38 matthew_: Trolltech is public TROLL.OL Oct 14 20:34:39 ... Oct 14 20:34:42 sorry, mispaste :) Oct 14 20:35:34 matthew_: Trolltech is loosing money because it is investing in human resources/development Oct 14 20:36:17 ljp: where is trolltech based? Oct 14 20:36:24 Trolltech made a profit befor egoing public Oct 14 20:36:32 Oslo Norway Oct 14 20:36:33 ok, appear to be trading at 11.70. they're doing ok. Oct 14 20:36:56 ljp: is that where you are? Oct 14 20:36:56 no one's going to drop their current model to become an ok company. Oct 14 20:37:20 Vegar: No, Qtopia development is done in Brisbane Australia Oct 14 20:37:44 Queensland - the best place in the world to live. Oct 14 20:37:49 ah, ok, about as far away from Norway as you can get Oct 14 20:37:53 :) Oct 14 20:38:20 matthew_: Sun have done mostly exactly that. Oct 14 20:38:25 heh Oct 14 20:38:33 Solaris and Java were legendary pieces of proprietary software. Oct 14 20:39:35 and they made a huge mistake Oct 14 20:40:01 yet they're rich and powerful and you aren't. Oh, if only they'd listened to you! :) Oct 14 20:40:56 how do you knw he's not rich and powerful too ? Oct 14 20:42:07 java is not completely open source Oct 14 20:42:07 it's just a guess. Oct 14 20:42:38 true, but they used to be a lot more rich and powerful Oct 14 20:42:47 anyone rich and powerful doesn't waste their time on IRC Oct 14 20:42:59 they employ a community engineer to do that for them Oct 14 20:43:23 not if they do it for fun Oct 14 20:43:31 * Writchie even poor and almost powerless do that ;) Oct 14 20:43:55 but i don't know if going open source hurt them or if java just peaked. Oct 14 20:44:12 people discovered it's poo Oct 14 20:44:39 i hear it's not poo anymore, but that image is still there Oct 14 20:44:57 I think Java's still one of the top #3 languages used, so I wouldn't say it's past its time just yet. Oct 14 20:45:21 yeah, that's part of the problem I guess, slow and crappy... as a perception Oct 14 20:45:25 thats because managers make the decision to use java Oct 14 20:45:59 the best business decision is often not the best technical decision Oct 14 20:46:22 take the iPhone for instance ;-) Oct 14 20:46:24 teaching people visual basic and java in school doesn't help Oct 14 20:46:29 true, which is why you often get over paid consultants working in your office... Oct 14 20:46:36 someone to take the blame Oct 14 20:46:41 Isn't Java the new Cobol? Oct 14 20:47:08 did anyone ever teach cobol? Oct 14 20:47:08 * Writchie Writchie was very happy to be an overpaid consultant in his younger days Oct 14 20:47:49 * ScaredyCat shudders at rpg III memories Oct 14 20:48:08 * Writchie long live fortran II Oct 14 20:48:36 rwhitby: yes - it was the language for the mongolian hoardes Oct 14 20:49:08 COBOL was successful because tab room managers could pretend they could read what programmers were doing ;) Oct 14 20:49:10 * rwhitby was lucky enough to be taught C and assembler, but not cobol. Oct 14 20:49:33 * Writchie complements rwhitby's mother on her timing Oct 14 20:49:49 rpg was designed to suck out the soul of the programmer Oct 14 20:50:10 there was no such things as an rpg programmer Oct 14 20:50:18 it was a form filler outer Oct 14 20:50:31 yes.. Oct 14 20:50:54 come to think of it, that's how we got our assembler into the machine Oct 14 20:50:56 no thought required :/ Oct 14 20:52:28 Power usage (ACPI estimate): 15.8W (2.1 hours) gahah Oct 14 20:52:46 hey, any motivation to port rpg or fortran to the neo? :D what about cobol? Oct 14 20:53:19 fortran probably works out of the box Oct 14 20:53:31 Writchie: hopefully not :) Oct 14 20:53:45 i think somebody has run gcc Oct 14 20:53:48 on the neo Oct 14 20:53:52 ScaredyCat: on your laptop? Oct 14 20:53:55 thankfully you'd have to get licensing on rpg - so we're safe Oct 14 20:53:59 Vegar: yes Oct 14 20:54:14 ScaredyCat: good to hear ;) Oct 14 20:54:44 Is there a known good Neo image at the moment? (ie. stable gsmd and latest UI?) Oct 14 20:54:56 heh.... Oct 14 20:55:49 what would be the best method to monitor power consumption on the neo? battery voltage? - also i tried to compile rrd to get some graphs which does not work - anyone else succesful on that? Oct 14 20:56:40 there's a script on the wiki that'll drain your battery in <1 hour if you want it :) Oct 14 20:56:58 i had very bad expiriences with my experiments on gprs - the battery last one hour... Oct 14 20:56:59 You could just leave it on, if you want to drain it quickly. Oct 14 20:57:39 sagacis_: :) i want to see how fast it goes down when... best would be to see the current if you switch devices on or off Oct 14 20:57:44 ScaredyCat: doing what? Oct 14 20:58:18 monitoring neo power Oct 14 20:58:21 ScaredyCat: shure, that's easy, i do that with gprs. i think switching on gps will be even faster ;) Oct 14 20:58:50 [yeah, but this gives youu power stats.. before it sucks the life from your neo :) Oct 14 20:59:03 ScaredyCat: ah, understand... Oct 14 20:59:13 what does it use? rrd? Oct 14 20:59:27 a flat file Oct 14 20:59:37 iirc .. Oct 14 20:59:49 I deleted it after it sucked the battery dry Oct 14 21:00:21 but that's probably better anyway, then you can plot with anything Oct 14 21:01:20 i normaly use rrd for that which makes really nice graphs. i don't understand why it does not compiler. there is a floating point error message when configuring Oct 14 21:06:19 powertop for arm would be nice Oct 14 21:09:15 ScaredyCat: I get about the same numbers with backlight at a minimum Oct 14 21:09:22 around 15.4W Oct 14 21:11:02 I suppose it's not too bad, considering I just saw somone say theirs was 25w Oct 14 21:12:47 usage in windows is 16W Oct 14 21:12:49 ish Oct 14 21:13:23 "Google Phone Rumors Solidifying" Oct 14 21:13:26 interesting Oct 14 21:14:39 * ScaredyCat doesn;t use windows Oct 14 21:14:50 * Vegar doesn't either Oct 14 21:15:03 I can't think of anyhting more scary than the google phone. Oct 14 21:15:16 well, other than an implant Oct 14 21:15:20 google implant Oct 14 21:15:25 I bet it'll be very cheap Oct 14 21:15:42 it will, if you don;t value your privacy Oct 14 21:15:49 hehe Oct 14 21:17:19 gnite folks Oct 14 21:17:46 rumours have it that it runs Linux and is "open" Oct 14 21:19:15 ScaredyCat: google phone operated by a state owned phone company? ;) Oct 14 21:19:35 * ScaredyCat shudders and huddles in the corner shaking Oct 14 21:21:42 * abraxa_ lures ScaredyCat with a toy penguin Oct 14 21:22:09 * ScaredyCat points at the tux's that SWMBO makes Oct 14 21:22:12 if it is as open as the Neo (which I doubt) that wouldn't be a problem, now would it? =) Oct 14 21:23:41 if the google phone really runs linux, it shouldnt be very hard to get rid of the spying stuff Oct 14 21:24:08 they'll put it in the gsm or gps driver... Oct 14 21:24:10 tho i still think the gphone may actually be gqtopia isntead Oct 14 21:24:24 mmm... Oct 14 21:24:34 buz: not if done right. Oct 14 21:24:52 think about it, gets them free access to just about any wince phone plus any decent linux phone they can come up with Oct 14 21:24:55 buz: secured hardware, approved kernels only (till you pay a release fee) Oct 14 21:25:25 i'm not sure spying on people via GSM will fly in many countries Oct 14 21:25:25 buz: modified X/... to prevent ad-blocking. All user programs run unpriviledged. Oct 14 21:25:37 this could be construed as wiretapping Oct 14 21:25:50 buz: generally not if it's a contract to which you agree. Oct 14 21:26:02 then it may be ok Oct 14 21:26:17 but in any case, it would require written consnet Oct 14 21:26:24 not just eula crap Oct 14 21:26:35 that'll be the contract with AT&T then ;) Oct 14 21:26:52 google will know better than to limit themselves to any one carrier Oct 14 21:27:13 guys, google is not completely evil yet. Lets give the the benefit of doubt until we get facts ;) Oct 14 21:27:23 not completely, but well on its way Oct 14 21:27:37 aren't they buying up frequency atm ? Oct 14 21:27:44 and much worse a danger than MS or Apple could ever be Oct 14 21:27:49 CoreDump: errm no.. Oct 14 21:27:54 compared to certain other uber-cors they are practically saints heh Oct 14 21:28:00 +corps Oct 14 21:28:15 depends Oct 14 21:28:17 google is evil and are systematically profiilying you. Oct 14 21:28:21 yes Oct 14 21:28:32 other mega corps do the same, but at least dont put the stuff online for everyone to see Oct 14 21:28:35 people give up everything for a few 'free' apps Oct 14 21:29:45 well i radically block all cookies with *google* in them Oct 14 21:30:08 I surf for porn to throw them off :P Oct 14 21:30:31 that's a new one. "I'm reading playboy to confuse googlebot" Oct 14 21:30:34 badger pron is hard to find though Oct 14 21:30:39 it always depends on what they are doing with the gathered data IMO. Oct 14 21:30:39 though google is nice for mailinglists stuff Oct 14 21:30:50 google is nice for search. Oct 14 21:30:59 everything else is subpar in my book Oct 14 21:31:11 If they don't sell it, I couldn't care less if my ads are "targeted" Oct 14 21:31:23 google will build up a nice profile of you and one day you'll find a package in your mailbox for the item they knew you were about to buy Oct 14 21:31:57 doesn't bother me. I know how to cover my tracks when I do not want to be tracked hehe Oct 14 21:32:05 ScaredyCat: ...or you'll find Anthrax because they suspect you're a terrorist. Oct 14 21:32:16 you might CoreDump, the average joe doesn;t Oct 14 21:32:32 ScaredyCat: people give up everything for a few 'free' apps because people are basically ignorant, and it is not in the best interest of any of the mega-corps to inform "joe public" about what they give up. Oct 14 21:32:33 Google Police Oct 14 21:33:07 ads? what ads? Oct 14 21:33:16 ScaredyCat: I beg to differ. You are talking about the corrupt police state the USA has become. It ain't googles fault Oct 14 21:33:16 it's not the ads Oct 14 21:33:25 i know Oct 14 21:33:29 the search engine is the real problem Oct 14 21:33:37 maybe i should start routing queries to google through tor ;) Oct 14 21:33:50 google is part of it CoreDump - just another corporation Oct 14 21:34:57 google is forced by "The State" to gather and disclose data. And they are of course not allowed to talk about it. It isn't googles fault that the USA has basically to privacy laws in place. Oct 14 21:35:29 google exists in more places than the usa Oct 14 21:35:43 and they follow the local laws =) Oct 14 21:35:50 in China too Oct 14 21:35:55 indeed Oct 14 21:36:01 google is a cult Oct 14 21:36:15 recently saw a recruiting presentation by google Oct 14 21:36:30 only because we don't like certain laws doesn't mean google can afford to ignore them Oct 14 21:36:32 the scary thing is that google's data is in USA, so USA's govt can request data about anyone using it Oct 14 21:36:40 be it in china or elsewhere Oct 14 21:52:44 ~9 Oct 14 21:52:45 extra, extra, read all about it, 9 is less than 10. the standard port for DISCARD Oct 14 21:53:35 any news ? Oct 14 23:21:33 looks like the Google linux based mobile phone is all go Oct 14 23:22:00 new info, or yesterday's news? Oct 14 23:22:06 looks like FIC will have some serious competition next year Oct 14 23:22:22 just saw something on /. Oct 14 23:23:36 http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/10/14/0218229 Oct 14 23:24:41 ah Oct 14 23:27:22 if you think about it its really a good move for google, you get webmail,search,web-office apps and a huge chunk of virtual storage without having to worry about your sd card getting filled or lost Oct 14 23:28:42 I keep saying people are missing the big $$ for mobiles and that is web services that integrate easily with the device Oct 14 23:29:23 if you lose your mobile who cares go get another one all the data is on the web Oct 14 23:30:25 trying to turn a mobile into a portable PC seems a bit old and overkill Oct 14 23:31:19 some will want the PC option (UMPC with GSM/CDMA support) but many dont want that much overkill Oct 14 23:33:27 gotta get some Zzzz's g'night! (interesting topic though) Oct 14 23:40:05 don't suppose that multi-touch driver hack that sean mentioned in a email a while ago is possible? Oct 14 23:41:49 which multi-touch? Oct 14 23:42:03 * cb22 finds the email Oct 14 23:42:40 http://osdir.com/ml/hardware.openmoko.general/2006-12/msg00074.html Oct 14 23:42:52 The vendor of the touch panel we are using said it might be possible. But it Oct 14 23:42:52 would be a considerable driver effort. We are not going to have this done Oct 14 23:42:52 for our initial Neo1973 release. I was never even on our roadmap for this Oct 14 23:42:52 device. Oct 14 23:43:01 linux_galore well.. not competition. they have clearly other targets Oct 14 23:43:28 cb22 first rule when reading what hw-vendors tell you: do not believe anything they say Oct 14 23:43:31 ;) Oct 14 23:43:35 hehe Oct 14 23:43:43 too bad Oct 14 23:44:25 does it sound possible? Oct 14 23:44:55 to be fair, i dunno it it could be true, but the work which needs to be done to have a non-certain chance of success and the gain it would give is just not in any realistic relation Oct 14 23:45:34 boo :( Oct 14 23:45:37 and even then it would never be real multitouch, same as apple has Oct 14 23:46:34 its just cheating naming something that can only have every coordinate with uniqe x and y multitouch. Oct 14 23:50:10 It's not that good - there are only four wires on the touchscreen. Oct 14 23:50:25 At best you get bounding box and approximate pressure Oct 14 23:51:22 You can detect touches when already touched. Oct 14 23:51:25 will the accelerometers in the 02 be more accurate then the iphone? Oct 14 23:51:31 but more than that is tricky Oct 14 23:52:18 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Accelerometer makes them sound quite useless Oct 14 23:52:35 cbrake_away: Is that referring to the Wii accellerometer? Oct 14 23:52:38 cb2: Oct 14 23:52:41 2 Oct 14 23:52:53 SpeedEvil, still not got your nick tabbing working? ;p Oct 14 23:53:01 no, the neo's Oct 14 23:53:02 The ones mentioned in the mailing list posting of way-back are some 16 times worse than that. Oct 14 23:53:19 but we have two of them, doesnt that count for something? Oct 14 23:53:24 No. Oct 14 23:53:26 Not really. Oct 14 23:53:31 :( Oct 14 23:53:45 will it be able to detect if i turn my phone horizontal? Oct 14 23:53:56 It can accurately tell which way down is Oct 14 23:54:14 so, yes Oct 14 23:54:17 See 'results' on that page Oct 14 23:54:58 SpeedEvil, that section refers mainly to inertial nav Oct 14 23:55:17 The inertial nav is a way to approach what the sensors can do. Oct 14 23:55:37 For example, what the responses are to twisting the neo along various axes. Oct 14 23:55:49 well, /me doesnt really care... as long as if i turn my phone horizontally it can detect it :) Oct 14 23:55:54 Anyway. Oct 14 23:56:06 Based on the apparent likely specs: Oct 14 23:56:11 It can tell where down is. Oct 14 23:56:26 cool :) Oct 14 23:56:37 It can't do useful dead reckoning even in a car holder for over 10s or so. Oct 14 23:56:39 cb22, do not forget it needs to be able to control lightsaber sounds Oct 14 23:56:50 mjr, very true Oct 14 23:56:53 It can tell if you tap the top or the bottom of the case. Oct 14 23:57:05 SpeedEvil, now that is _cool_ Oct 14 23:57:11 (assumign that the accels are at the top or the bottom of the screen Oct 14 23:57:20 (assumign that the accels are at the top or the bottom of the neo Oct 14 23:57:26 s/or/and/ Oct 14 23:57:27 SpeedEvil meant: (assumign that the accels are at the top and the bottom of the neo Oct 14 23:57:51 It can't tell any but the most violent twists that do not affect where 'down' points. Oct 14 23:58:10 ok, got it Oct 14 23:58:11 For example, holding the neo in front of you looking at a map, and turning round, you can't pick tha tup. Oct 14 23:58:30 bummer Oct 14 23:58:39 ie, if i put it on a table and turn it around, not moving it Oct 14 23:58:46 yes. Oct 14 23:59:00 It can detect if you actually spin it. Oct 14 23:59:11 But not at handheld useful rates. Oct 15 00:00:18 boo Oct 15 00:00:39 no wii cloning then Oct 15 00:00:42 The error of integration after 1s is something like 60 degrees after 1 second. Oct 15 00:01:01 in the phone on its back on a table case Oct 15 00:01:46 Or it can measure accelleration when swung as a baseball bat or a tennis racket. Oct 15 00:01:54 And measure the swing speed quite well. Oct 15 00:02:01 (may void warranty) Oct 15 00:02:06 hehe Oct 15 00:02:38 I need to rework that page with the confirmed new A/Ds. Oct 15 00:02:51 Most of it assumes the much better accel in the Wii. Oct 15 00:03:14 (which are best-of-breed - and still suck.) Oct 15 00:03:51 Unfortunately there are no commercial semiconductors capable of any sort of inertial guidance that would be very useful to phone users yet. Oct 15 00:04:07 so we pretty much cant detect yaw? Oct 15 00:04:17 You can detect which way down is. Oct 15 00:04:51 And you can make assumptions of if the phone orientation is changing, or if it's due to exxternal accelerations. Oct 15 00:05:36 Unfortunatley, due to the very limited baseline - 10cm or so max - the differential accelerations caused by other twisting motions of the phone are simply usually too small to pick out of the noise. Oct 15 00:06:11 The comparatively insensitive accel doesn't help this of course. But in any case many interesting things are marginal even with the best possible chips. Oct 15 00:06:41 There are gyro chips which would work well - but they are $20 per, not $2 per as accels are. Oct 15 00:07:44 SpeedEvil, may i ask, what do you do? you seem to know so much about everything! Oct 15 00:07:55 googles Oct 15 00:08:12 I am unfortunately unemployed at the moment due to variable health - mostly bad. Oct 15 00:08:53 SpeedEvil: ouch. that explains how you're always here, however Oct 15 00:09:00 I was made to go to school one day with glandular fever at age 12, and was basically in bed for the next 3 years with post-viral fatigue syndrome. Oct 15 00:09:10 big ouch :( Oct 15 00:09:38 I got slightly better after that - but I run into problems where I relapse for months and have _no_ energy or motivation. Oct 15 00:11:32 Trying to learn stuff and start to get money coming in through various net-enterprises. Oct 15 00:16:29 SpeedEvil: is that related to an immunity response, I remember listening to a CSIRO podcast regarding research into the field were ones immunity system overreacts causing people to be lethargic and tired Oct 15 00:17:57 apparently they were testing some new treatments with some success (thus the podcast) Oct 15 00:19:00 Unfortnately, there is no good research - I've been following the field. Oct 15 00:19:17 And have a doctor who also does. Oct 15 00:19:30 SpeedEvil: maybe not in the USA but it is a well known problem here in Australia Oct 15 00:21:08 It's a well known problem here too. Oct 15 00:21:23 As to good research I was meaning peer reviewed double blind trials. Oct 15 00:21:48 There is _way_ too much quackery in the field unfortunately. Oct 15 01:06:29 SpeedEvil: CSIRO is the government research agency over here, they are far from quacks, give you an example they patented Wifi way back in the early 90's Oct 15 01:08:07 how nice of them Oct 15 01:08:30 so now, every time you want to buy a wifi device in oz, you have to give them money? Oct 15 01:10:53 doc|home: no every time a company makes a wifi chipset they have to pay a license. Dont forget American companies and Universities do exactly the same Oct 15 01:11:06 license fee* Oct 15 01:11:29 linux_galore: yeah, but you end up paying for that as it'll be built into the cost of the device Oct 15 01:11:34 in short, it's just another tax Oct 15 01:11:57 doc|home: were talking a few cents per chipset Oct 15 01:12:14 linux_galore: that doesn't mean it's not a tax Oct 15 01:12:41 if it was a company that was doing it, they'd be called "patent trolls" Oct 15 01:12:54 doc|home: its not a tax either, its a license fee, all technology has some IP involved that has to be paid for Oct 15 01:13:09 properly open technology doesn't Oct 15 01:13:28 doc|home: CSIRO invented WiFi, were not talking prior art of any kind Oct 15 01:13:35 and if it's a licence fee, it's just a tax under a different name Oct 15 01:13:43 given that it's the government Oct 15 01:13:55 linux_galore: they designed and built the chipset? Oct 15 01:14:14 if they did, then that'd be something at least Oct 15 01:14:39 doc|home: well the CSIRO also as part of their charter have to earn money or spin technologies off into commercial products, yep they have to earn money not just ask for hand outs Oct 15 01:15:26 to me, that reads like a handout. They don't actually make anything :/ Oct 15 01:15:35 (to do with wifi) Oct 15 01:16:06 doc|home: yep, they recently created (about 8 years ago) a variant of WiFi that uses a very clever distributed wireless technology (no central router needed) and CISCO paid over 200 million for the tech, and yes they fabed chipsets for that too Oct 15 01:16:32 see, that's something :) still doesn't sound like the other thing was special Oct 15 01:17:10 I'd have thought ad-hoc would have been covered under obvious though Oct 15 01:17:54 doc|home: imagine way back in the late 80's (when the project started) there was nothing, no high speed wireless digital data protcols or technology for PC's, CSIRO created everything from scratch Oct 15 01:17:58 string on a can is an ad-hoc network Oct 15 01:19:00 linux_galore: what did they create though? the chipset designs? Oct 15 01:19:08 CSIRO would have been mad not to have patented what they spent years on creating Oct 15 01:19:39 doc|home: yes they created the early precursors to wifi, eben the antenna's and the protocols Oct 15 01:19:45 even* Oct 15 01:20:05 ok, that's different to patent trolls then Oct 15 01:20:33 bullshit patents are limited to patent trolls Oct 15 01:21:09 nah, anyone can get a bullshit patent, and patent trolls can also get what should otherwise be a reasonable patent (RIM vs whoever) Oct 15 01:21:14 :) Oct 15 01:22:10 s/are/arn't/ Oct 15 01:22:10 Writchie meant: bullshit patents arn't limited to patent trolls Oct 15 01:22:29 ah Oct 15 01:23:13 and wireless networking was is wide use in the 50's Oct 15 01:23:37 doc|home: CSIRO do create products but they dont commercialise it they sell the technology with a preference to local companies, CSIRO sometimes spin off a full blown comercial company (as in the case of the CISCO deal) Oct 15 01:24:33 Writchie: TCP/IP wirless networks are a pretty new thing Oct 15 01:25:12 just another protocol Oct 15 01:25:24 Writchie: trust me many companies are now screaming blue murder because there is shit all prior art Oct 15 01:25:38 linux_galore: but why are the government doing that and not private companies? Oct 15 01:26:26 doc|home: the same happens in the USA, ie NASA and University based research funding, just here they have a single body that looks after it all Oct 15 01:27:13 wifi != space exploration :) Oct 15 01:27:42 doc|home: University based funding isnt just about feeding LSD to monkeys either Oct 15 01:27:52 nasa held patents on blood pressure readings and much other everyday stuff Oct 15 01:27:54 linux_galore: yes it is! (in the US) Oct 15 01:28:26 patents are just licenses to sue and be sued and provide work for attorneys Oct 15 01:29:05 true, many Universities in the USA earn a fortune from licensing to commercial entities and the funding they got was mostly government Oct 15 01:30:13 not uncommon for a US based drug research program in a University to get a 150 million dollar license payment for their research Oct 15 01:31:54 this has also created a problem in the US were Universities dont talk to each other when it comes to cuting edge research so things are starting to stagnate Oct 15 01:33:33 Patents and Universities are not a good mix really Oct 15 01:34:15 some talk about Universities now not being liable to patents so they can do research in similar fields without having to worry about getting sued Oct 15 01:55:42 linux_galore: if universities were excepted why not except all and just eliminate patents? Oct 15 01:56:03 linux_galore: they aren't terrible useful anymore to anyone except for gigantic corporations with a legion of lawyers Oct 15 02:04:17 u_l-lap: because government University funding has stagnated in the USA and $50 millions dollar payouts are hard to ignore Oct 15 02:06:41 u_l-lap: its actually easily fixed if all Universities have a cross licensing agreement (last i heard this is starting to happen) Oct 15 02:08:13 or just change patent laws so they dont apply to Universities full stop (they dont apply to the government anyway) Oct 15 02:10:13 linux_galore: right but why should universities be special? Oct 15 02:13:50 u_l-lap: lets put it this way, would you hand over a few million for research and some guy in China can knock of the product and sell it into the same market, of course not, so some sort of protecting is needed Oct 15 02:14:15 linux_galore: why? Oct 15 02:14:37 research is for the benefit of Man and not for Profit Oct 15 02:14:41 u_l-lap: because research costs money, people want to pay their rent Oct 15 02:15:14 u_l-lap: good will doesnt put food on your table Oct 15 02:15:20 it does for me Oct 15 02:15:33 you just have to adjust your expectations Oct 15 02:15:42 I can eat and pay rent and own a nice bicycle Oct 15 02:15:47 I can't afford a car or a ps3 Oct 15 02:15:55 u_l-lap: yes but explain that to a guy putting millions on the line and he will tell you were to go Oct 15 02:16:06 LOL Oct 15 02:16:23 he want a guarantee that he will get a return Oct 15 02:16:25 u_l-lap: good will won't buy you a Neo1973 Oct 15 02:16:28 wants* Oct 15 02:16:36 linux_galore: luckily cs research requires ~$500 initial equipment investment and nothing more Oct 15 02:16:52 CVirus: writing custom free software will though Oct 15 02:17:04 u_l-lap: well cs I dont thing should be patented for that reason Oct 15 02:17:07 CVirus: the money is sitting around waiting for a gta02 to materialize Oct 15 02:17:08 think* Oct 15 02:17:58 programming has a low front entry price were medical,hardware research has a high entry up front cost Oct 15 02:18:27 how could someone do medical research with profit as a motive! Oct 15 02:18:41 what kind of terrible person would want to profit and deny people medications and such? Oct 15 02:19:40 The kind of terrible person who would wish to provide medications and care more than once. Oct 15 02:19:48 u_l-lap: thats reality, technology can cost a fortune and take 15 years or more of no income Oct 15 02:20:20 ok so the economy is broken let us fix it Oct 15 02:20:32 instead of existing as a hacky workarounds Oct 15 02:20:42 -s Oct 15 02:21:19 I can offer up a few years of my life, and give away the results, but only once. After that, since I'll have no income, I'll be one of the homeless people sleeping on cardboard box remnants on Lower Wacker drive in Chicago. Oct 15 02:21:33 u_l-lap: 99% of medicines that emerge from the concept stage do not emerge as marketable products. Oct 15 02:21:44 u_l-lap: the ones that do have to fund this 99% Oct 15 02:21:50 u_l-lap: unfortunately any system you create even though looking perfect on paper humans will find some way of fsking up so you have this wacky hacked up method of dealing with things Oct 15 02:21:55 again that is the result of hte economy being broken Oct 15 02:21:58 Or I can make someone pay a fair price, and then I can continue to contribute for the rest of my life. Oct 15 02:22:02 What makes more sense? Oct 15 02:22:22 destroying capitalism Oct 15 02:22:32 he! Oct 15 02:22:38 if you benefit the community with your research why should they not voluntarily support you? Oct 15 02:22:50 because of human nature. Oct 15 02:22:55 u_l-lap: wont happen, its human nature to expect a reward for their toil Oct 15 02:23:01 humans are fundamentally good and are corrupted by society Oct 15 02:23:08 I expect no reward for my work Oct 15 02:23:17 I do things for the sake of doing them Oct 15 02:23:20 u_l-lap, dream on. Others have tried the perfect solution from countries to communes. Oct 15 02:23:23 most people I know do things for the sake of doing them Oct 15 02:23:31 u_l-lap: so you never plays games huh Oct 15 02:23:35 play* Oct 15 02:23:42 I occasionally play lbreakout Oct 15 02:23:49 when I have nothing else to do Oct 15 02:23:55 u_l-lap, someone pays for your food and the roof over your head. Oct 15 02:24:00 u_l-lap: so you are happy to beg for food? Oct 15 02:24:01 mwester-laptop: me Oct 15 02:24:16 it just happens that I can write code and people will give me money for it Oct 15 02:24:17 games actually take advantage of human nature to compete and get rewarded when they succeed Oct 15 02:24:26 u_l-lap: and how do you do that, if you do not work, but instead give away your effort for free? Oct 15 02:24:42 mwester-laptop: I do that too Oct 15 02:24:52 Why not all the time? Oct 15 02:25:02 Why do you charge money for some of it? Oct 15 02:25:08 because people are willing to pay me to write custom software for them Oct 15 02:25:28 if I were more interested in the fields I would probably write that software for no money as well Oct 15 02:25:33 And how does that differ from all those who work for money along with doing community service of some sort? Oct 15 02:25:40 u_l-lap: just give them the software for free, if they like it they will pay you, all humans are nice arent they Oct 15 02:25:48 heh Oct 15 02:26:04 it doesn't I was saying in a hypothetical unbroken economy you could do beneficial research and not need to care about profit as the community would voluntarily support you Oct 15 02:26:21 linux_galore: I am not naive Oct 15 02:26:51 Read your history, many many others have also dreamt of such a society, and it hasn't survived thus far. Oct 15 02:27:03 u_l-lap: they wouldnt, humans have an opinion so what you may see at being good for society as a whole others may for personal or religious grounds decide is wrong Oct 15 02:27:22 mwester-laptop: yes thanks to imperialistic europeans Oct 15 02:27:37 mwester-laptop: the most savage race of men upon the earth destroyed culture around the entire world Oct 15 02:28:06 linux_galore: society as a whole is much larger than a community Oct 15 02:28:16 So as broken as it might be, I prefer to admit the truth about human nature, and build a system that works *with* that nature, and hope that it is possible to provide some form of social justice within that framework. Oct 15 02:28:19 note that I also don't believe in land ownership Oct 15 02:28:24 u_l-lap: a large part of any society is populated by social sheep, you just need a few alpha leaders and they will walk into hell Oct 15 02:29:12 * mwester-laptop wishes to meet u_l-lap in 50 years, and repeat this conversation... Oct 15 02:29:13 linux_galore: again the result of a broken society that demonizes independent thought Oct 15 02:29:39 u_l-lap: although I can understand your point I also know humans by nature are corrupted animals Oct 15 02:30:09 thus corrupt anything they touch, ideals dont last long Oct 15 02:30:18 linux_galore: we are by nature social creatures. We are weak on our own, and it is only because of our fundamentally cooperative nature that we survived the savannahs of africa. Oct 15 02:30:34 linux_galore: unfortunately sociopaths are difficult to combat Oct 15 02:30:52 u_l-lap: no, we survived because we wipped out the competition for resources Oct 15 02:31:03 and how did that occur? Oct 15 02:31:09 have you seen a bear before? Oct 15 02:31:26 one almost ate me once I'm pretty sure if I were a lone primitive man I wouldn't survive very long Oct 15 02:31:51 u_l-lap: cooperation happened because everyone in the group saw that it was in their own self-interest to cooperate. As soon as the first member saw that they got more food by killing the others, war began. Oct 15 02:31:54 u_l-lap: competition also includes fellow humans Oct 15 02:32:12 hello phil 101 Oct 15 02:32:34 "there is no such thing as altruism self-interest motivations all!" Oct 15 02:32:47 s/motivations/motivates/ Oct 15 02:32:47 u_l-lap meant: "there is no such thing as altruism self-interest motivates all!" Oct 15 02:32:49 humans will only group together if it serves thier "own" interests, when that fails you have wars and revolutions Oct 15 02:33:08 I can disprove your argument Oct 15 02:33:15 I don't care about my self-interest Oct 15 02:33:23 I am a human Oct 15 02:33:28 u_l-lap: reality is rough. Philosophy is for those who can afford it. Oct 15 02:33:38 I leave you to your daydream ;) Oct 15 02:33:41 mwester-laptop: or those who are above the care of poverty Oct 15 02:37:33 My personal view is the technology we so crave is also to some degree what destroys our freedoms and joys, when i went to Bali the people have nothing but some land and family but they are very happy and always smiling Oct 15 02:38:07 indeed Oct 15 02:38:25 I'd be much happier without email. Oct 15 02:38:39 thats cause they live by some awesome beaches Oct 15 02:38:55 ljp: so you guys are going to move to Noosa? Oct 15 02:39:04 yeah, the land in Bali is some of the best on the planet to grow food too Oct 15 02:39:05 :) i wish Oct 15 02:39:42 Noosa has been taken over by yuppies, its not a drop out/sea change place anymore Oct 15 02:39:49 i woudl be happy with a modem that doesn't CME error 13 on +CIMI Oct 15 02:40:05 when no sim is present Oct 15 02:40:13 heh Oct 15 02:40:28 * linux_galore waits for his GTA03 Oct 15 02:42:46 how much for a GTA03, hmm $40 million huh, to you take Diners card Oct 15 02:43:47 I saw a Nokia 95-8G (Black) on sale on ebay yesterday Oct 15 02:44:00 up to 9K already Oct 15 02:44:15 N95-8G Oct 15 02:45:04 Nokia did the same with the E90 they sold a hand full of weeks before the release and gave the money to charity Oct 15 02:49:50 well SIM failure aka CME error 13 sounds valid if you want the IMSI which is on a sim, not on the modem Oct 15 02:51:52 roh: I woudl think CME error 10 would be more appropriate when there is no sim Oct 15 02:55:11 so, is there a standard scripting language for openmoko? Oct 15 02:55:25 i just read some 9 month old mailing list thread that didn't seem to have a conclusion Oct 15 02:55:28 Python, sh, ruby's been built for it too. Oct 15 02:55:52 built for it, but is one included by default? Oct 15 02:56:10 I believe python is in the default build, but I haven't checked. And sh is there too Oct 15 02:56:33 so, if i want to write an app, can i do it completely in python? or python with c++ wrappings? Oct 15 02:57:25 c++? Uh, I guess... Oct 15 02:57:27 roh: error 13 would mean 'there is a sim, but it failed' Oct 15 02:57:32 But sure, python, or C. Oct 15 02:58:18 enjahova: the stated position is that there will be no interpreter by default in the root image (except sh of course) Oct 15 02:58:36 oh Oct 15 02:59:20 rwhitby: so if i want to write an app able to run on any default OM phone, it better be in C? **** ENDING LOGGING AT Mon Oct 15 02:59:57 2007