**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Sun Nov 11 02:59:57 2007 Nov 11 03:00:04 bmk789_: i am excited Nov 11 03:00:25 bmk789_: i expect a good piece of creativity, whatever it will be there's going to be some completely new ideas Nov 11 03:00:37 yep Nov 11 03:01:35 err, i should direct that to niklauz Nov 11 03:02:07 ferric: why do you say it's dissapointing? i wasn't able to find any concrete technical data about it, only a hint that it will be apache public license Nov 11 03:03:13 hi balrog-kun: ya, i'm very optimistic of feature merging though i'm not sure if that is permitted between those two lisences Nov 11 03:03:26 i hear a google person on a different channel (completely not connected with computers) say it carries a big surprise and that everyone at google is excited Nov 11 03:04:00 the fabled 'tele-punch' ? Nov 11 03:04:24 niklauz: well, openmoko already uses lots of non-gpl code, many typical linux system libs are non-gpl, etc Nov 11 03:04:35 also android is going to base on tons of gpl software Nov 11 03:04:54 the kernel if anything is gpl, google is not rewriting the whole Linux Nov 11 03:05:25 true, i think wind river (sp?) was involved, i wonder if it's based on their stack Nov 11 03:06:31 i don't know but the faq says somewhere that a lot of standard opensource projects are used Nov 11 03:06:44 it's heavily based on java too -_- Nov 11 03:06:59 making the ui code not really reusable, but what counts are the ideas i guess Nov 11 03:07:17 hmm.. why would that make the ui non-resuable? Nov 11 03:07:39 because openmoko UIs are in C Nov 11 03:07:53 at least the stuff that ships with openmoko Nov 11 03:08:39 thats a little over my head Nov 11 03:08:49 are you saying android's ui is java-based? Nov 11 03:09:08 yeah, that's the rumour Nov 11 03:09:48 i just hope it accelerates the whole sector, and that the result is as gpl'd/free as possible Nov 11 03:10:03 a nice sdk doesn't hurt either of course Nov 11 03:10:31 but i'm essentially an openmoko fanboy so my opinion may not matter Nov 11 03:12:24 lol E17 ui on the OM, dam its fast though, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vbqx_HdLs-k Nov 11 03:14:06 ya, OM hired rasterman Nov 11 03:15:41 loks like it needs to me made more phone like and less desktop like Nov 11 03:16:50 niklauz: yeah, me too, they say android and openmoko and qtopia have different goals but they are pretty much competition for each other Nov 11 03:17:17 and finger touchable Nov 11 03:17:36 and openmoko and qtopia being gpl, it's quite clear that vendors will choose android if it permits them to not contribute back any code Nov 11 03:18:06 so you might say it's harming for the establishing of a standard GPLed phone stack Nov 11 03:18:24 i'm just curious about what the new UI ideas it brings Nov 11 03:19:56 qtopia is dual licensed Nov 11 03:22:17 balrog-kun: its based on Linux so they have to contribute code back Nov 11 03:22:46 well not for everything but the core kernel stuff they will have too Nov 11 03:23:00 Linux_Galore: well, the low level code yeah Nov 11 03:23:56 although, on a second thought, linux is just a unix clone, the whole stack should run on other unix clone kernels too, with little modification Nov 11 03:24:04 they can have proprietary modules Nov 11 03:24:06 and there are plenty of commercial unix clones out there Nov 11 03:24:10 balrog-kun: hardware support is the bug-bear for Linux not the UI stuff so Im not too fussed about the upper level stuff being contributed back Nov 11 03:24:48 balrog-kun: they can always use BSD like apple did Nov 11 03:25:04 Linux_Galore: the hardware changes so quickly between mobile models that the hardware support for one model isn't really useful for anyone else Nov 11 03:25:31 any company that rolls out a new phone has to hire linux driver hackers anyway Nov 11 03:25:47 maybe not the whole system, but lots of handheld devices have the same components Nov 11 03:26:38 those released in the same time period yeah, Nov 11 03:26:45 balrog-kun: not really, mobile makers dont make the chips too, they can use a combination of them but the individual chips will still need Linux adaption Nov 11 03:26:49 but the components go out of use very quickly Nov 11 03:27:03 at least compared to desktop industry Nov 11 03:27:46 balrog-kun: Im in the mobile electronics industry and they are more conservative than the desktop/laptop industry Nov 11 03:28:30 Linux_Galore: my experience so far shows otherwise Nov 11 03:29:31 balrog-kun: one of the products we have been selling now for 6 years has the same chipset over that period but we have updated the software and added some minor visual variations, consumers dont actually like things changing too much it means they have to think Nov 11 03:30:40 Linux_Galore: if it's a "series" then sure, there will be some similarity, but generally series end at some point, even the quite good ones (say the Zaurus) Nov 11 03:31:25 another example is the Palm T|E vs Palm T|E2 device, they look identically outside and have the same capabilities, except cpu speed Nov 11 03:31:48 the components inside these two are completely different, from cpu to memory to touchscreen controller to battery Nov 11 03:33:09 balrog-kun: true but I bet they designed them to work very similarly to stop users walking away from the platform, people take devices like PDA's and mobiles personally, I know people who have purchases a iPhone loved it but then gone back to a Nokia phone because thats what they feel at home on Nov 11 03:34:13 well, yeah, the software was identical on both devices except the drivers, and perhaps some bufixes in the pim suite Nov 11 03:36:03 balrog-kun: I have some great prototype devices in the lab I have collected over the years and some times I take one outside and people go "wow thats so cool when will it be released", I say never and the device was designed 5 years ago Nov 11 03:36:39 people just found the new feature too over whelming and it wasnt cost effective Nov 11 03:37:17 some day I wish the world had more geeks so devices didnt have to be so dumb Nov 11 03:37:21 days* Nov 11 03:37:26 lol Nov 11 03:37:35 yeah, you have to be careful to not make stuff to complicated these days Nov 11 03:37:40 what device are you talking about the neo Nov 11 03:38:01 in the beginning of PDAs people had to learn anyway because these things were new, so you could more freely innovate Nov 11 03:38:08 PITABoy: no, I work for a electronics company now based in HK Nov 11 03:38:54 Hong Kong? Nov 11 03:39:04 PITABoy: yes Nov 11 03:39:23 although Im in australia right now Nov 11 03:40:43 goto love the internet, you can work in one country for a company in another, still have to do the bi-annual visits to HK though Nov 11 03:41:27 what company is it Nov 11 03:41:32 nokia Nov 11 03:41:34 jk Nov 11 03:41:42 lol, got know, its a chinese brand Nov 11 03:41:46 god* Nov 11 03:41:52 lol Nov 11 03:41:54 god no* Nov 11 03:41:58 ack! Nov 11 03:41:59 trolltech headquarters are in australia :) Nov 11 03:42:02 what brand? Nov 11 03:42:18 not trolltech and were not a Linux shop Nov 11 03:42:23 trolltech like as in qtopia green phone Nov 11 03:42:27 nor windows either Nov 11 03:42:43 do you make phones? Nov 11 03:42:47 yes Nov 11 03:42:54 if so tell them to put linux on the damn things Nov 11 03:43:08 and whatever you do dont put symbian on them Nov 11 03:43:10 PITABoy: why, we have our own in house OS Nov 11 03:43:20 what is it called Nov 11 03:43:20 TT hq is in norway. qtopia dev is in australia Nov 11 03:44:38 PITABoy: Im trying to keep my job out of this, Linux is a hobby to me and I dont want people asking me work questions Nov 11 03:44:56 oh Nov 11 03:45:07 who is the contact person for the neo related driver stuff? Maybe I can help to write the opengl es part Nov 11 03:45:41 ljp: well, the human resources dept. is in oz Nov 11 03:45:57 its funny I like QT over GTK Nov 11 03:46:02 nope. there is an HR person here Nov 11 03:46:28 HR? Nov 11 03:46:29 ljp: hum, okay, then there must be various branches Nov 11 03:46:32 * ljp works for tt Nov 11 03:46:37 I found the QT api allot nicer to use than GTK's mish-mash Nov 11 03:46:44 each office has hr Nov 11 03:46:55 * balrog-kun got an offer from the oz branch Nov 11 03:46:59 Linux_Galore: its true :) Nov 11 03:47:12 balrog-kun: cool. Nov 11 03:47:34 balrog-kun: gonna take it? Nov 11 03:47:49 GTK has a better license though if your doing something commercial (and dont want to pay a per seat license) Nov 11 03:47:50 the person's name was Andy Green Nov 11 03:48:04 ljp: nope, i'm already overloaded with work, and i prefer GTK personally :p Nov 11 03:48:25 although i must admit i like the QPE apis, compared to the gsmd design... Nov 11 03:48:39 balrog-kun: Andrea Nov 11 03:48:47 balrog-kun: QT 4.0 is very very nice Nov 11 03:48:56 true that Nov 11 03:49:32 its good too see though it makes the GTK people get of their rears and make GTK better Nov 11 03:49:44 competition is good Nov 11 03:50:09 what is openmoko based on qt or gtk Nov 11 03:50:31 OM is GTK but QTOPIA have been ported to the NEO Nov 11 03:50:32 PITABoy: take a guess Nov 11 03:51:11 well everyone seems to hate gtk so I'm going to say qt but with the awesome eyecandy it is hard to tell Nov 11 03:51:45 Philips already use QTOPIA on some of their WiFi cordless (with a camera too) VoIP phones Nov 11 03:52:36 no OM is GTK, always has been Nov 11 03:52:51 cool Nov 11 03:52:56 I like gtk better Nov 11 03:52:59 than qt Nov 11 03:53:12 PITABoy: each to their own Nov 11 03:53:14 why is that? Nov 11 03:53:44 gtk to me anyway seems more lightweight on system resources and I think that it looks better Nov 11 03:53:57 although JAVA in reality will be the dominant Linux mobile desktop for a long line Nov 11 03:54:09 s/desktop/UI/ Nov 11 03:54:10 Linux_Galore meant: although JAVA in reality will be the dominant Linux mobile UI for a long line Nov 11 03:54:14 ahhh I hate java Nov 11 03:54:19 even uglier than qt Nov 11 03:54:50 PITABoy: go look at the new Sony/Ericsson k860i UI, same that is one sweet setup Nov 11 03:54:54 its Java Nov 11 03:55:03 oops k850i Nov 11 03:55:22 that is who you work for sony ericsson Nov 11 03:55:27 s/same/dam Nov 11 03:55:59 no Sony/Ericsson are actually based in China mainland not HK Nov 11 03:56:09 oh Nov 11 03:56:32 they sub contract out too a company in Sth America last I heard for the parts now Nov 11 03:56:40 personally I hate that type of menu but like you said earlier to each his own Nov 11 03:57:32 gn8 Nov 11 03:57:44 i like list menus not icon menus for the most part Nov 11 03:57:47 Im actually wondering how much damage Android will do too the OM phones Nov 11 03:57:55 idk Nov 11 03:58:08 anyone seen any screenshots of Android Nov 11 03:58:22 PITABoy: I would say its all paper right now Nov 11 03:58:45 that is what i thought no images of any android stuff anywhere Nov 11 03:58:58 they are releasing an sdk in the next few days Nov 11 03:59:08 PITABoy: HTC are making a Android based phone, that should make Microsoft cringe as HTC are a Windows shop Nov 11 04:00:17 true but I heard just a rumor but all android stuff is rumor that google is making an add-on os for current phones not a replacement os Nov 11 04:00:38 well the up side for the OM guys is that their users will have better access to Googles services Nov 11 04:00:55 there are already press releases about sprint and google teaming up and that there will be google software updates for current phones Nov 11 04:01:25 HTC is not really the Windows shop, the produce all PalmOS devices too and many others Nov 11 04:01:34 PITABoy: I can see a big divide in the industry over the next 5 years, the pro Google and the anti google Nov 11 04:01:41 they produce the parts and assemble under the names of many other companies Nov 11 04:02:12 balrog-kun: Im talking about HTC branded products Nov 11 04:03:33 balrog-kun: many Chinese companies sub contract for other brands (the company I work for does) Nov 11 04:05:05 I dragged a NEC product in one day and showed it to a marketing guy and said, what do you think of this, and he said. "looks like total crap", meanwhile the head of engineering for China was standing next too me who had designed it Nov 11 04:05:44 thats a classic moment Nov 11 04:05:49 that is funny Nov 11 04:05:52 hah, ouch Nov 11 04:05:55 and you work for NEC Nov 11 04:05:57 lol Nov 11 04:05:59 no Nov 11 04:06:18 the company is not a major western brand Nov 11 04:06:23 We are just going to have to list every chineese company Nov 11 04:06:28 oh Nov 11 04:06:35 heh, thousands of them Nov 11 04:06:41 i know Nov 11 04:07:42 and the company I work for makes everything from Swiss watch parts to telephones, alarm systems and aeroplane parts Nov 11 04:07:58 damn sounds like my company Nov 11 04:08:06 but you said that it isnt western Nov 11 04:08:15 nope, not western Nov 11 04:08:35 you work at a chinese company? Nov 11 04:08:39 do you speak chinese? Nov 11 04:08:41 well actually I am a security gaurd at a company that makes everything Nov 11 04:08:55 no, I work in a division based in Australia Nov 11 04:09:00 and no it isnt chinese but they have offices worldwide Nov 11 04:09:01 heh Nov 11 04:09:31 i still qualify for their benifits though which are awesome Nov 11 04:09:56 such as pretty much any product at cost from dell computers to cars Nov 11 04:09:59 andriod is expected to be released under the apache public license, would this permit code sharing w/ OM? Nov 11 04:10:01 i want to work in china Nov 11 04:10:22 niklauz: cant see why not, you can put apache on the NEO Nov 11 04:10:51 eonj: hope you like smog Nov 11 04:11:16 Linux_Galore: i do, i've stayed in tianjin before ^^ Nov 11 04:11:17 and lots of people heh Nov 11 04:11:25 wow, that is a really simple straight forward way of answering that question... makes sense though, do you know if it works the other way around also? i'm wondering about the potential for feature merges between the two? Nov 11 04:11:28 that is what i was gonna say Nov 11 04:11:41 eonj: I like the food in China, so much variety Nov 11 04:11:52 oh hell yeah, good food every day, and cheap Nov 11 04:12:47 i like american food Nov 11 04:12:54 mmmmm cheeseburgers Nov 11 04:13:16 eonj: I put weight on when I was last in China (Pudong) Nov 11 04:13:44 Linux_Galore: i lost it, but i was walking everywhere (student) had to eat bigmacs a couple times a week to maintain Nov 11 04:13:56 like 3-4 meals a day... Nov 11 04:14:18 so yeah, some1 needs to give me a job deving on OM in china ^^ Nov 11 04:14:22 or taiwan would do Nov 11 04:14:38 eonj: yeah, I rode a bicycle for the first time in years in China Nov 11 04:15:00 I havent been to tw yet Nov 11 04:15:30 wonder if its similar to HK Nov 11 04:15:51 HK is all money money money Nov 11 04:16:02 i dunno, i went to tw 2 years ago and it was great Nov 11 04:16:47 i was in gaoxiong, in the south so it was pretty traditional Nov 11 04:17:25 I loved how the OM guys had to buy a TW made motherboard in Europe because they cant buy it locally Nov 11 04:19:07 it's the same in China though, you can buy the high grade western products locally in the shops even though the factory may be up the road Nov 11 04:19:12 cant* Nov 11 04:19:40 you can get cheap knock off though lol Nov 11 04:19:40 yeh, i tried getting a powerbook fixed there... at an official and unofficial apple repair place Nov 11 04:19:57 wanted to charge me 150$ for a new powercord shipped from Cali Nov 11 04:21:08 eonj: yeah, but you can buy a locally made copy for US$25 Nov 11 04:21:28 eonj: made in the same factory too lol Nov 11 04:21:34 as the original Nov 11 04:21:44 no one wanted to sell me one... =\ Nov 11 04:22:12 eonj: aah, always hire a local to help out for a day when shopping Nov 11 04:22:14 altho i didn't have any technical contacts/acquaintances because i was studying language Nov 11 04:22:46 actually a local did try to help, she had bought a macbook too, but she wasnt as up on it as she should ahve been hehe Nov 11 04:23:14 lol Nov 11 04:23:22 knock off interpreters Nov 11 04:23:30 lol Nov 11 04:24:36 eonj: I hired a student who was studying english after some advice from one of the local contacts I was working with Nov 11 04:24:59 eonj: its was good fun, my english is abysmal too Nov 11 04:25:11 haha nice Nov 11 04:25:30 bet the poor bugger is failing his exams Nov 11 04:25:33 whats your native tongue? Nov 11 04:26:00 english, Im actually from the UK but being an engineer english has always been second fiddle Nov 11 04:26:18 oh i see, so very colloquial :D Nov 11 04:26:48 well, i'm from florida, so i try to emphasize a southern drawl in my international communications Nov 11 04:26:53 for fun Nov 11 04:27:14 eonj: yeah, "when you meet anyone you say, "strewth mate I havent seen you in donkeys years" Nov 11 04:27:21 heh Nov 11 04:28:33 passing on colloquial variations to the chinese is very comical Nov 11 04:29:15 fo sheezy Nov 11 04:29:46 eonj: yeah, they cant say the letter "P" properly Nov 11 04:30:21 so one uses lots of words that begin with "p" just to have a chuckle as they try to emulate your style Nov 11 04:31:20 but they have the last laugh... whenever i try to just pronounce a word in standard mandarin Nov 11 04:31:41 yeah, Im hopeless when it comes to mandarin Nov 11 04:32:39 few thousand characters to the basic alphabet then you have colloquial variations Nov 11 04:33:31 yep.. Nov 11 04:33:55 also HK has a different dialect to the mainland Nov 11 04:36:27 yeah it will take a lot for me to try cantonese Nov 11 04:36:36 ive been at mandarin for 3 years and its hard enough Nov 11 04:36:59 watching someone from HK order food in a restaurant in a remote village in China is funny, imagine a german tourist ordering fish and chips in wales in england, "I wund likeh some chips and flush" "what ?, we only ave fush and chups er mate" Nov 11 04:37:15 hehe Nov 11 04:37:40 there is a saying "i fear nothing but a cantonese trying to speak mandarin" Nov 11 04:37:48 a HKer once told me :) Nov 11 04:38:34 hrm Nov 11 04:38:51 what the hell does any of this have to do with openmoko? Nov 11 04:40:06 um, people in china will eventually use OM? Nov 11 04:40:07 hehe Nov 11 04:40:34 eonj: yeah, he was trying to show of to the ignorant westerner his mandarin skills, I was just sitting there chuckling as he went red in the face and started shouting Nov 11 04:40:52 nice Nov 11 04:41:44 kids were looking in the door in aw at this westerner laughing as these two shout at each other Nov 11 04:42:19 in the end I just pointed at what I wanted heh Nov 11 04:42:32 yeah that works best most often lol Nov 11 04:42:39 body language is a helluva thing Nov 11 04:43:27 yeah, I find if you have patience language isnt an issue Nov 11 04:44:05 well, i gtg, coffeeshop is closing >< Nov 11 04:44:21 yeah, see you later Nov 11 04:44:26 cya Nov 11 04:45:30 eonj: hope you learn mandarin better than me ha! Nov 11 05:00:09 hello, just looking around for someone to chat with... I have a few pictures up at www.myspace.com/caseytinsley if you wanted to see. feel free to message me :) Nov 11 05:01:49 hmm, i didn't think that sort of stuff happens on irc :D Nov 11 05:01:50 lol Nov 11 05:01:54 camwhores on openmoko Nov 11 05:01:58 we've officially made it Nov 11 05:02:02 \o/ Nov 11 05:02:02 lol Nov 11 05:05:25 are we now "in" and "mainstream" when we have that kind of spam? Nov 11 05:41:12 anybody know any info on OE/OM with OLPC? Nov 11 08:25:44 good morning Nov 11 10:33:04 anyone awake? Nov 11 10:34:42 hoi Nov 11 10:35:24 oi Nov 11 10:36:46 yo Nov 11 10:38:37 hey raster torpor :) Nov 11 10:39:25 * raster burps Nov 11 10:41:00 i'm currently moving to a root-on-SD config .. anyone here done that yet? Nov 11 10:43:16 how goes it raster Nov 11 10:43:17 what does the situation look like, will the gta-02 be ready in december? (the 900/1800/1900 version) Nov 11 10:43:36 edistar: you an optimist or a pessimist Nov 11 10:44:19 xzcvczx: work work work Nov 11 10:44:20 :) Nov 11 10:44:31 xzcvczx: optimist ;) Nov 11 10:44:50 edistar: then maybe Nov 11 10:44:58 raster: om is not work :P Nov 11 10:44:59 xzcvczx: just wondering if I should save money so I could buy it in january Nov 11 10:45:11 xzcvczx: it is for me Nov 11 10:45:12 :) Nov 11 10:45:23 raster: its not work if you enjoy it Nov 11 10:45:26 edistar: personally - i would. Nov 11 10:45:33 but i kind of can avoid that now :) Nov 11 10:45:37 raster: ok, thx for the info Nov 11 10:45:45 ~smack raster Nov 11 10:45:46 * apt smacks raster upside the head. Nov 11 10:46:12 xzcvczx: well the stuff i'm doing is not on my list of thgnis i want to do Nov 11 10:46:19 but it needs doing because others have wanted to do it Nov 11 10:46:23 thus Nov 11 10:46:24 its work Nov 11 10:46:45 i WANT to make openmoko fully happy lucky fun time bling bling Nov 11 10:46:48 sexy Nov 11 10:46:49 fast Nov 11 10:46:59 raster: what are you working on at the moment? Nov 11 10:47:01 with really novel and easy to use controls Nov 11 10:47:07 edistar: an internal project Nov 11 10:47:10 raster: ok Nov 11 10:47:14 my ex is like that and it really wasnt that great :P Nov 11 10:47:17 its internal and non-discolosed until we release Nov 11 10:47:17 hmm, who's working on the v8 for the next neo version? Nov 11 10:48:03 raster: can't you work on a media player like canola for maemo, do you know it? Nov 11 10:50:01 edistar: no as its not in the product plan. Nov 11 10:50:25 raster: ok, canola is not OSS anyway, but something similar would be cool Nov 11 10:50:36 I suppose you have to focus on more important things.. Nov 11 10:50:43 raster: anything cool in the product plan that you can tell us about? :) Nov 11 10:51:14 edistar: actually i think canola is oss Nov 11 10:51:14 :) Nov 11 10:51:28 cb22: nup. nothing i can tell you until its out. Nov 11 10:51:54 raster:then I Nov 11 10:52:04 raster: then it has changed.. Nov 11 10:52:43 raster: the website says it's not OSS yet Nov 11 10:52:48 hmmm Nov 11 10:52:54 it is intended to be Nov 11 10:52:58 once they are done Nov 11 10:52:59 i am sure Nov 11 10:53:09 yes Nov 11 10:53:32 then someone could port it to openmoko, shouldn't be impossible Nov 11 11:00:27 that could be done Nov 11 11:10:54 raster: with you on the bling. please lets work out a nice scene lib that parses SVG and produces bling. Nov 11 11:11:32 svg is not the best way to go for bling Nov 11 11:11:32 imho Nov 11 11:11:40 rendering svg is expensive Nov 11 11:11:41 and slow Nov 11 11:11:49 you just handicap your bling abilities Nov 11 11:11:50 but svg is easy to create, raster. Nov 11 11:12:00 not to mention PARSING the xml, the now added javascript Nov 11 11:12:01 etc. etc. Nov 11 11:12:09 irrelevant Nov 11 11:12:09 put svg on one end of the factory, and make it fast through whatever scene lib makes sense. Nov 11 11:12:31 if its easy to build a go-kart from a lawnmower engine and a shopping cart Nov 11 11:12:37 doest make it a F1 sports car Nov 11 11:13:02 * Stephmw tickles raster Nov 11 11:13:13 my idea: use svg for all interface design and description (node names) and then parse it through some sort of interface compiler that builds a streamlined, fast (bitmap-based?) media scene lib .. blit it however you want to blit it, but let the designers and coders interface with the whole thing using SVG. Nov 11 11:13:44 it depends on who's authoring your bling. Developers are notorious for _not_ being the best graphic/ui designers Nov 11 11:13:46 It's difficult to get vector graphics to scale nicely Nov 11 11:13:50 i've been using cairo+svg on gp2x and now neo .. its not *that* bad, to be honest, if you do a bit of behind-the-scenes prep work. Nov 11 11:14:08 and graphic/ui designers are unable to design using code... Nov 11 11:14:16 Stephmw: svg is not code. Nov 11 11:14:27 torpor: shush, I'm backing svg here Nov 11 11:14:29 svg is a container format. inkscape is a wonderful way to build a GUI and use it .. Nov 11 11:14:49 torpor: svg has good authoring tools... not as good as flash mind you Nov 11 11:15:18 in fact i'd go so far as to say that working with inkscape, saving the svg, loading up the test app, and having it instantly usable is a very high order goal, aesthetic/performance issues be damned. the performance issue is worth attacking though. Nov 11 11:15:49 it allows now ay for it to scale properly Nov 11 11:15:56 torpor: that way you'd be inspired to work a lot more on design Nov 11 11:16:04 it can only scale linearly Nov 11 11:16:04 i know you are biased towards newer-horizon tech, raster, but there is some value to stepping up the use of pre-existing tools to solve interface problems. Nov 11 11:16:13 uyou cant maintain an N pixel "toolbar" for example Nov 11 11:16:23 or force scaling to retain aspect ratios Nov 11 11:16:24 "N pixel toolbar" whats that? Nov 11 11:16:29 use pixel-precise texture fills Nov 11 11:16:30 etc. Nov 11 11:16:31 why does it have to be one-size-fits all? Nov 11 11:16:40 create the svg to size, end of issue Nov 11 11:16:51 because i already have stuff that does this Nov 11 11:16:52 its done Nov 11 11:16:53 finished Nov 11 11:16:54 works Nov 11 11:16:55 fast Nov 11 11:16:56 you can pass the svg through whatever grinder you want, and get the rendered results ready to go. Nov 11 11:17:22 everyone runs around as if svg is some silver bullet for all things Nov 11 11:17:23 its not Nov 11 11:17:28 raster: how do you design the interface? gimp? photoshop? pixeleditor? Nov 11 11:17:33 its a nice source format when doing work Nov 11 11:17:39 i do a lot of work in inkscape Nov 11 11:17:47 so you export to bitmap from inkscape? Nov 11 11:17:52 i often port back and forth from inkscape to gimp Nov 11 11:17:55 and back Nov 11 11:17:59 depending what i am doing Nov 11 11:18:04 in the end its used to produce bitmaps Nov 11 11:18:21 that are then pieced together in another layout system that handles all the other nitty bits Nov 11 11:18:36 i have been doing a lot of this sort of thing lately: taking a low-quality picture of some nice artwork i see somewhere, converting it to vectors, rendering those vectors in an app dynamically. its very nice. Nov 11 11:19:09 i've been doing this kind of stuff for many years :) Nov 11 11:19:16 vectors are not the ultimate silver bullet Nov 11 11:19:20 draw a picture of your apps gui on paper, scan it in, convert to vectors, name the objects well, render the DOM .. Nov 11 11:19:25 you go down that path and you will pay a nice cost for it Nov 11 11:19:37 raster: nobody in here doubts your skills. we know who you are. Nov 11 11:19:53 i'm down that path, and the thing is: it works just fine. its not as bad as you're making it out to be. Nov 11 11:20:09 and the benefit is that you can go from sketch->working interface very quickly. Nov 11 11:20:31 but obviously its not intereting to you, so its going to be interesting to me to see what you end up doing instead .. Nov 11 11:21:17 swvg - i think - is a great format for artists to exchange vector source images and data Nov 11 11:21:21 anyone know how easy it is to get nethack on the neo, just slap a recipe to bitbake and build it..will this work? Nov 11 11:21:23 and the point i'd like to make is that svg is a good GUI source format. compile to bitmap and blit away as you see fit, or lets make an interim scene-lib that handles the vector-display well enough to where it doesn't matter .. Nov 11 11:21:25 its a bad thing to design gui's in Nov 11 11:21:36 glade files are much closer to what you'd want Nov 11 11:21:45 glade? Nov 11 11:21:46 no thanks. Nov 11 11:22:10 not al GUI's need buttons and fields .. Nov 11 11:22:50 in fact i'd go so far as to say that standard WIMP based GUI objects are utterly boring and becoming irrelevant in this multitouch day and age .. Nov 11 11:23:12 no Nov 11 11:23:20 you need a way to container and lay out Nov 11 11:23:22 and pack Nov 11 11:23:27 not just place things at coord x,y Nov 11 11:23:43 you need to say "put a horizontla box here, then pack item x, y and z in from the left" Nov 11 11:23:55 you need a way to say "here's a scrollable region that contains Y" Nov 11 11:23:57 so why shouldn't you hybridise this? Nov 11 11:24:08 you need a way to define certain elements to resize and others to stay a fixed size Nov 11 11:24:12 or resize differently Nov 11 11:24:18 Stephmw: i already have Nov 11 11:25:26 raster: why is this *needed*, this packing and smart placement? isn't that something the designer should just do herself? Nov 11 11:25:43 no Nov 11 11:25:54 that's gtk talk.... Nov 11 11:25:57 yeah Nov 11 11:26:01 because then when you go from qvga ro vga things change a lot Nov 11 11:26:08 go from landscape to portrait - again Nov 11 11:26:10 I've never understood why you'd want to limit people like that Nov 11 11:26:18 ScaredyCat: how so? Nov 11 11:26:21 when you make other toolbars and status bars appear and disappear Nov 11 11:26:32 so the "window" may stretch or shrink by 30 or 40 pixels Nov 11 11:26:42 when your code adds and removes elements dyanmically Nov 11 11:26:43 ... Nov 11 11:26:47 and why isn't a vectored interface appropriate for this problem? Nov 11 11:26:49 raster: I've worked with a system that coped with this just fine Nov 11 11:26:55 you've buit gtk apps torpor... Nov 11 11:26:59 built Nov 11 11:27:02 raster: *but* it's one of those things we can talk about... *sigh* Nov 11 11:27:07 *can't* Nov 11 11:27:09 sure. Nov 11 11:27:25 raster: you surely lead the pack in ter Nov 11 11:27:27 so you know about the packing of boxes and shit like that.. Nov 11 11:27:32 Stephmw: for very limited values of "this' it works. Nov 11 11:27:40 rather than x,y Nov 11 11:27:43 yeah, but i don't like that, to be honest ScaredyCat .. i don't want to have to think about that. Nov 11 11:27:49 which makes more sense to me... Nov 11 11:28:01 yeah, I'm agreeing with you.. Nov 11 11:28:04 raster: it was certainly not a runtime-flexible system. Nov 11 11:28:23 x,y is obvious, packing is painful Nov 11 11:28:30 then why bring up inkscape as a gui designing program Nov 11 11:28:34 it simply cant do it Nov 11 11:28:43 pakcing is painful Nov 11 11:28:52 but its a necessity to make anything but trivial ui's Nov 11 11:29:16 * Stephmw shrugs - I didn't bring un inkscape, just svg. Nov 11 11:29:28 i think the GUI elements offered by, for example, glade, are to user interfaces today as curses is to interfaces in the 90's. Nov 11 11:29:44 which is to say, their value is overstated. Nov 11 11:30:13 not on a text console :) Nov 11 11:30:28 sure, but a fully graphics-oriented device doesn't need to have so much square. Nov 11 11:30:48 forget sliders to change a value, give me a picture of the thing i'm changing, and move it around the screen accordingly. Nov 11 11:31:07 anyone remember the paradigm shift that kais power tools interfaces provided in the mid-90's? Nov 11 11:31:22 even todays gui's are far too word-oriented. Nov 11 11:32:08 "The filter is typical of the KPT 6 collection as a whole: at times the interface is inspired and offers the ability to create beautiful reddening sunsets simply by interactively dragging the sun toward the horizon, producing realistic sunsets and moonscapes." Nov 11 11:32:13 aren't there specs for how to design guis in openmoko yet? Nov 11 11:32:21 edistar: the spec is: use gtk. Nov 11 11:32:31 torpor: not very usefull Nov 11 11:33:09 s/usefull/useful Nov 11 11:33:28 nope Nov 11 11:33:30 i agree. Nov 11 11:34:12 but then, how modern do you want to design the gui, if you make it similar to pcs people will understand better maybe Nov 11 11:34:45 edistar: i dunno about that. look at the world of software synthesizers (where i dwell) for example. there are very few common-GUI element in this realm. Nov 11 11:35:38 thats true again...but often there are sliders Nov 11 11:35:59 sliders and knobs are the *most* unintuitive thing for synthesis. Nov 11 11:36:22 hmm Nov 11 11:36:29 i wanna port a n64 emulator to oe :< Nov 11 11:36:38 om* Nov 11 11:37:07 flexd: as long as it's an emulator, whats the problem? Nov 11 11:37:19 no problems Nov 11 11:37:19 yet Nov 11 11:37:22 flexd: I first thought c64. ;) Nov 11 11:37:29 except me not having a phone ofcourse :p Nov 11 11:37:44 but that problem will be solved soon i hope :) Nov 11 11:37:52 flexd: I hope so too Nov 11 11:38:02 edistar: hell- we dont even know what we want internally Nov 11 11:38:13 raster: yes, please decide soon Nov 11 11:38:14 so how are we going to give you specs on how to design a gui/ Nov 11 11:38:15 :) Nov 11 11:38:19 not going to happen Nov 11 11:38:24 okey Nov 11 11:38:25 but im gonna try to learn more gtk for now. Nov 11 11:38:26 but you can Nov 11 11:38:33 unless our marketing and business guys deside to chaneg their current course Nov 11 11:38:36 you will not see anything Nov 11 11:38:51 but you can't expect a lot of chaps to program if they don't have enough information Nov 11 11:39:07 nothing i can do Nov 11 11:39:13 it's out of my hands Nov 11 11:39:18 ok Nov 11 11:39:21 i dont have time to even start on that Nov 11 11:39:28 If a commonly known api is used, it's quick for new developers to get started anyway Nov 11 11:39:30 i have a project to do that has nothing to do with any of this stuff Nov 11 11:39:39 because marketing has determined that to be our product direction Nov 11 11:40:00 what is that project raster? a blingy toy thingy? Nov 11 11:40:10 torpor: internal, secret ;) Nov 11 11:40:15 automatic pr0n downloads Nov 11 11:40:17 cant say anything Nov 11 11:40:21 its internal until released Nov 11 11:40:27 * doc|home nods, pr0n Nov 11 11:40:32 is it going to be pretty, though? Nov 11 11:40:53 i'd love NOTHING more than to help drive OM's ui into lands of wonder and exctement Nov 11 11:41:01 me too Nov 11 11:41:05 nothing better than to define nice boundaries of apps or "applets" Nov 11 11:41:07 what they shoudl do Nov 11 11:41:09 thats why i'm doing it. Nov 11 11:41:11 and how they should work/interact Nov 11 11:41:27 work on tonnes of toolkits and libs to make making sexy uis' easy Nov 11 11:41:37 pre-packaging all the really nice things into easily usable chunks Nov 11 11:41:40 but Nov 11 11:41:49 any plans i have for that hve to be on hold Nov 11 11:41:54 until this project is done Nov 11 11:42:01 I thought that Sean was a coder and would have a stong influence on the marketing and project direction Nov 11 11:42:06 this project we won't know about :/ Nov 11 11:42:10 and that wont be until a few months into next year Nov 11 11:42:24 so basically, that employed you not for the neo but for something else? Nov 11 11:42:32 s/that/they/ Nov 11 11:42:32 ScaredyCat meant: so basically, they employed you not for the neo but for something else? Nov 11 11:43:36 slightly off-topic but it has gadget factorness so maybe some will be interested. Played with an eeepc today. Wasn't bad. Keyboard's just big enough for touch typing and the screens usable, but more filling out of the bezel would be nicer. Fast machine to use, has both gtk and qt. Couldn't see a way to pull up a term though. Nov 11 11:43:54 * doc|home abandons grammar for 3.45am Nov 11 11:44:09 doc|home: is it possible to install debian on it or some other distro? Nov 11 11:44:20 doc|home: Ah, nice. I've wondered why they have such a small screen on it though, a v2 of it would be nice :) Nov 11 11:44:44 edistar: it's xandros, which is debian based afaik, but you should be able to install any distro if you can get it to boot from usb. I didn't get to look *that* closely :) Nov 11 11:44:57 ok:) Nov 11 11:45:18 CM: yeah, I'm on a toss up between getting it or getting a gta02 (in north america so 850mhzness may be a problem). I was definitely tempted though. Nov 11 11:45:32 ScaredyCat: its a projetc for the neo Nov 11 11:45:43 v2 will be a bit late, so will have to decide :) Nov 11 11:45:44 ah ok... Nov 11 11:46:01 I was considering either eeePC or N810 or gta-02, but the neo won :P (up to now) Nov 11 11:46:16 it would have been pretty crap if it wasn't raster Nov 11 11:46:36 get an N800, reduced price now :) Nov 11 11:47:00 ScaredyCat: I have a 770, I would buy the 810 cause of gps and hardware keyboard Nov 11 11:47:15 ScaredyCat: they're only wifi devices, no use for them otherwise, and they're still overpriced Nov 11 11:47:40 I got a 770 for 75 ... Nov 11 11:47:56 ScaredyCat: I didn't, it was quite expensive... Nov 11 11:48:02 n800 is about 149 now Nov 11 11:48:17 ScaredyCat: oohh Nov 11 11:48:24 doc|home: only if you buy when they're just released Nov 11 11:48:37 that's a whole lot more tempting, i thought they were about $350 Nov 11 11:48:37 you have to temper your inner geek.. Nov 11 11:48:45 * doc|home searches Nov 11 11:48:58 770 or 800? :) Nov 11 11:49:18 770 is very good, and much more stable, cause of the metall case Nov 11 11:49:53 so, how long before the gta02? Nov 11 11:50:02 * doc|home has a gadget itch ;) Nov 11 11:50:09 (no need to answer) Nov 11 11:50:13 149 what? pounds? Nov 11 11:50:27 * CM changes tires on the car *sigh* Nov 11 11:50:29 oh, pounds? then yeah, that's about $350 Nov 11 11:50:36 770 is good enough for me.... I use it to interface slimserver Nov 11 11:50:53 ScaredyCat: hacker edition OS 2007 is very good Nov 11 11:51:21 * ScaredyCat confesses to having star trek sounds installed :( Nov 11 11:52:27 * edistar confesses to never having seen star trek Nov 11 11:52:38 ! Nov 11 11:52:51 I met somone like that once.... Nov 11 11:52:51 n770 for $307 - fail Nov 11 11:52:52 * flexd confesses that edistar is not worthy Nov 11 11:53:03 although, he didn't own a tv either Nov 11 11:53:12 n800 for 266 Nov 11 11:53:13 ScaredyCat: I don't either Nov 11 11:53:14 doc|home: wtf! Nov 11 11:53:25 still more than I'd like to pay really, seeing as it's just a wifi device Nov 11 11:54:14 for a change you're the ones getting ripped off... Nov 11 11:54:15 its a great device for war driving! ;) Nov 11 11:55:09 Nokia 770 Internet Tablet PC = available from $259.99 Nov 11 11:55:24 Nokia N800 Internet Tablet PC = $250.95 Nov 11 11:55:27 errm Nov 11 11:55:34 yeah :) Nov 11 11:55:46 the 770 is so much cooler ;) Nov 11 11:56:03 silver is a crappy colour Nov 11 11:56:13 770 black == nice Nov 11 11:56:16 is it aluminium or silver paint Nov 11 11:56:17 ? Nov 11 11:56:27 alu Nov 11 11:56:33 that's ncie Nov 11 11:58:26 but the gta-02 as so much more potential than a nokia tablet Nov 11 11:58:39 definitely Nov 11 11:58:41 yeah, but you can't buy one now Nov 11 11:58:48 and unless you live in north america Nov 11 11:58:54 * doc|home grins Nov 11 11:58:55 ScaredyCat: maybe two, three month Nov 11 11:59:04 * doc|home shouldn't be grinning, he does :( Nov 11 11:59:05 and live in europe ;) Nov 11 11:59:59 but yeah, I'd prefer the gta02 Nov 11 12:00:09 yeah, there'll be so many more available now that the usa folk don;t like the lack of 850 Nov 11 12:00:11 :D Nov 11 12:00:29 I'm getting one, mostly in urban areas anyway so it makes no difference. Nov 11 12:00:29 770 has a bigger screen Nov 11 12:00:36 and higher res Nov 11 12:00:41 damn you Nov 11 12:00:52 I'd just ruled it out until you said that :( Nov 11 12:00:57 lol Nov 11 12:01:05 seriously, it's a sweet device... Nov 11 12:01:07 but no gsm, I don't understand why nokia doesn't add gsm to their tablets Nov 11 12:01:09 I bet it has working power management too :) Nov 11 12:01:13 edistar: yeah Nov 11 12:01:16 seems odd Nov 11 12:01:21 and it'll talk bt to your neo Nov 11 12:01:33 doc|home: about 1 - 1.5 weeks standby Nov 11 12:01:33 nokia will, once they have everything else figured out :) Nov 11 12:01:44 edistar: on which? Nov 11 12:01:48 android ? Nov 11 12:01:50 :D Nov 11 12:01:56 i think they just don't want to take the kind of risk with a new platform Nov 11 12:02:04 guaqua: they'l let openmoko do the work and then just take the gsm bit and port it ;) Nov 11 12:02:18 ... might be a long wait... Nov 11 12:02:20 * ScaredyCat ducks Nov 11 12:02:23 and they're pretty symbian about everything Nov 11 12:02:27 damn you all, now I want an n800 :( Nov 11 12:02:30 me too Nov 11 12:02:34 go for n810 Nov 11 12:02:42 n800 is clumsy Nov 11 12:02:44 doc|home: n810 is so much cooler, hardware keyboard Nov 11 12:03:13 it is, but $480? fuck that Nov 11 12:03:14 no, go for the 800 + new neo Nov 11 12:03:19 yep, better option Nov 11 12:03:30 I can flog it on craigslist when/if I get a neo Nov 11 12:03:32 or a 770 from ebay Nov 11 12:03:36 I have spots on my screen where the most used keys on the onboard keyboard are, cause the stylus scratches.. Nov 11 12:03:37 the n810 is nicer though Nov 11 12:03:41 ScaredyCat: hmmm Nov 11 12:04:08 http://search.ebay.co.uk/search/search.dll?from=R40&_trksid=m37&satitle=nokia+770 Nov 11 12:04:17 even with shipping to usa == cheap Nov 11 12:05:23 ah, now I see why the 770 is more, it has a higher res screen than the 800 Nov 11 12:05:47 er, wait, no Nov 11 12:05:49 wth? Nov 11 12:05:54 * doc|home needs sleep :/ Nov 11 12:05:58 doc|home: sure? Nov 11 12:06:02 no :( Nov 11 12:06:06 how can it be higher res? Nov 11 12:06:10 I must have misread something somewhere Nov 11 12:06:13 ok Nov 11 12:06:13 it's 4am Nov 11 12:06:21 its 1 pm here Nov 11 12:06:32 heh Nov 11 12:06:39 ebay ones are worryingly cheap Nov 11 12:06:49 hehe Nov 11 12:07:13 the screens are pretty scratched, i'd think Nov 11 12:07:56 oh, I thought the ebay ones were new.. Nov 11 12:08:13 I wouldn't buy a second-hand tablet, screen would be ruined I quess Nov 11 12:08:58 is the only differnce between the n770 and n800 the camera? Nov 11 12:09:08 (and design, but I prefer the 770's) Nov 11 12:09:32 hmmm, slightly more memory and faster cpu oo Nov 11 12:09:33 *too Nov 11 12:09:40 doc|home: no, cpu is arm11 with 400mhz in the n800 Nov 11 12:09:41 wonder if I could run gentoo on it ;) Nov 11 12:09:46 770 has 266mhz Nov 11 12:09:50 like I say doc|home, mine cost 75 so those prices aren't bad... and mine was new Nov 11 12:10:00 330 MHz TI OMAP 2420 according to wikipedia Nov 11 12:10:01 doc|home: no, you wouldn't manage ;) Nov 11 12:10:03 (n800) Nov 11 12:10:06 heh Nov 11 12:10:21 doc|home: oh, I always thought 400.. Nov 11 12:10:51 all I need now is someone with ebay / paypal :) Nov 11 12:11:33 anyone got any idea what these generally go for? Nov 11 12:11:46 http://cgi.ebay.ca/Nokia-N800-Internet-Tablet-w-Extra-Battery-and-Charger_W0QQitemZ280171264578QQihZ018QQcategoryZ38331QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem#ebayphotohosting Nov 11 12:13:43 $325 is too much Nov 11 12:14:08 doc|home: since word of the N810 got out about US$220-280 Nov 11 12:14:10 yes Nov 11 12:14:13 no, not the buy it now price Nov 11 12:14:36 Linux_Galore_: doable :) Nov 11 12:14:51 at the lower end Nov 11 12:15:07 can get a buy now 770 for 150 Nov 11 12:15:22 doc|home: wait for the N810 to hit ebay and you should be able to get one under $200 Nov 11 12:15:36 * doc|home doesn't want to wait :( ;) Nov 11 12:15:41 no Nov 11 12:15:46 * doc|home must not buy more stuff Nov 11 12:16:32 doc|home: Ive learnt to be patient, I will often wait 6 months for a products pirce to drop especially if its rather good Nov 11 12:16:43 price* Nov 11 12:16:59 doc|home: should get a eee pc Nov 11 12:17:42 doc|home: Im waiting for a cheap Sony VAIO UX portable computer to slap Linux on Nov 11 12:18:03 i'm also waiting for the eee Nov 11 12:18:09 makes the N series by Nokia look like toys Nov 11 12:18:27 sony will never be cheap :( Nov 11 12:18:51 ScaredyCat: Sony stuff drops very quickly after 2 years Nov 11 12:19:05 even if sony could make vaios affordably enough to sell them at 200 bucks, they wouldn't sell them under 2000 bucks :) Nov 11 12:19:13 dunno, I've been watching their umpc's for a while now... Nov 11 12:19:37 ScaredyCat: Ive seen UX's going for less than US$500 Nov 11 12:19:59 !!! Nov 11 12:20:01 wtf Nov 11 12:20:08 ebay isnt the best place either for a cheap Sony VAIO UX Nov 11 12:20:17 where, gimmie a link, quick! Nov 11 12:20:53 ScaredyCat: look for auction sites, google will help you filter them Nov 11 12:21:15 also some student sites have cheap UX's show up now and again Nov 11 12:22:21 I saw a US-380 sell here in Australia in the tradingpost.com recently for AU$680 Nov 11 12:22:31 UX-380 sorry Nov 11 12:23:52 1GB ram 30GB hardisk 1.33Ghz Core Solo, GMA-950 etc Nov 11 12:24:44 Im waiting for the eee to come out then all the other UMPC's will look very excessive Nov 11 12:25:18 even the N810 is is about US$500 Nov 11 12:25:19 Linux_Galore_: that's how this conversation started, I mentioned I was playing with an eee pc today :) Nov 11 12:26:06 i'm soo jealous :/ Nov 11 12:26:11 btw, does bluetooth+GPRS works in the latest neo GTA01 images? I'd like to pair it with my N800 :) Nov 11 12:26:20 why does the black one cost more ? Nov 11 12:26:22 doc|home: yeah, I saw a picture recently of a shelf with 4 units on it each one a different colour, white.blue.pink.black Nov 11 12:26:30 @ eee Nov 11 12:26:34 ScaredyCat: because people will pay more :/ Nov 11 12:26:41 people are idiots Nov 11 12:26:48 Linux_Galore_: yeah, they had two today, both whte though Nov 11 12:26:50 Linux_Galore_: yep Nov 11 12:26:57 hmm, i want a eee now Nov 11 12:27:07 I want one when they have a bigger screen Nov 11 12:27:18 but by then, I'll have a neo, so won't want one Nov 11 12:27:40 well second 1/4 2008 there will be a second variant of the eee released with a larger screen but the same case Nov 11 12:27:53 and a gta03 announced? ;) Nov 11 12:28:01 hmm, this is rather interesting... eee or neo :/ Nov 11 12:28:09 cb22: exactly :) Nov 11 12:28:10 no Nov 11 12:28:15 awww Nov 11 12:28:15 I got an old laptop which is perfect, a bit big but otherwise, cheaper than a eeepc Nov 11 12:28:18 no gta-03 Nov 11 12:28:23 i mean at 425$ the price is nearly the same Nov 11 12:28:28 i want both! Nov 11 12:28:38 * cb22 's head explodes Nov 11 12:28:39 cb22: who doesn't ;) Nov 11 12:28:41 I was really hoping the hxd (or whatever it was called) was going to be another phone :/ Nov 11 12:28:53 both the gta02 and the eee are too big a compromise for me Nov 11 12:28:55 raster: can you say when there might be announcements of other products? Nov 11 12:28:58 or is it known? Nov 11 12:29:09 right now we have a gta-01 that is on sale Nov 11 12:29:15 the gta-02 is the next thing planned Nov 11 12:29:20 and will be out sometime Nov 11 12:29:27 ...soon ? Nov 11 12:29:29 dates to be confirmed Nov 11 12:29:31 hehe Nov 11 12:29:32 I talked to a friend a few days ago and we decided we'd be happy it we had a macbook, an eeepc, a nokia tablet and a neo1973 ;) that would satisfied all needs ;) Nov 11 12:29:33 gah! Nov 11 12:29:35 but we are shooting for december Nov 11 12:29:42 people laughed when I said Jan 2008 for the GTA-02 Nov 11 12:29:47 edistar_: and a massive bag Nov 11 12:30:01 man bag Nov 11 12:30:06 doc|home: don't have to take everything with me always.. altough it would be tempting ;) Nov 11 12:30:15 december sucks for me. i'm in limboland with my visa so can't order one until january :( Nov 11 12:30:18 so can i actually buy a eee yet? Nov 11 12:30:27 cb22: yep Nov 11 12:30:36 raster: it needs to be beginning of December or March 08 Nov 11 12:30:37 cb22: I think so, yes, it's even available in germany now Nov 11 12:30:41 although nz might be more difficult Nov 11 12:30:46 december 07 Nov 11 12:30:58 oh, wait, south africa, no idea then Nov 11 12:30:59 bah, why does this choice have to arrise :/ Nov 11 12:31:06 Im getting a COWON A3 and a Sony VAIO UX , do everything I need, I get mobiles from the company for free Nov 11 12:31:13 sony = evil Nov 11 12:31:14 doc|home: nah, i could get it from whereever, got people traviling overseas Nov 11 12:31:14 cb22: what choice exactly? Nov 11 12:31:22 * ScaredyCat stabs Linux_Galore_ Nov 11 12:31:22 between a neo and an eee... Nov 11 12:31:30 ScaredyCat: why? Nov 11 12:31:32 I get coffee at my company for free Nov 11 12:31:56 I get ... erm... t-shirts :/ Nov 11 12:31:57 well, for December 07, christmas... and march 08, recovery from christmas Nov 11 12:32:01 heh Nov 11 12:32:21 ScaredyCat: like my new black N95-8G Im testing Nov 11 12:32:28 ScaredyCat: if we were able to ship jan15 Nov 11 12:32:29 muawahahaha Nov 11 12:32:34 i see no reason why we'd wait until march Nov 11 12:32:39 we got some free t-shirts - Taiwanese XL - too small for any of us :( Nov 11 12:32:51 hehe Nov 11 12:32:54 :D Nov 11 12:33:00 as those that are not living paycheque to paycheque can buy anytime Nov 11 12:33:14 I'm not living paycheck to paycheck... Nov 11 12:33:22 then why would it mater? Nov 11 12:33:26 if you want an item Nov 11 12:33:27 but I'm not buying shit for myself at christmas Nov 11 12:33:28 and want it asap Nov 11 12:33:33 the company has this stupid contract with a local telco and we get a new executive model mobile every 12 months Nov 11 12:33:34 then buy it when its available Nov 11 12:33:40 raster: what about this: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/HXD8 ? Nov 11 12:33:57 doc|home: that's a dash.net device Nov 11 12:33:58 ;) Nov 11 12:34:05 www.dash.net Nov 11 12:34:12 doc|home: thaqt device isnt specifically ours Nov 11 12:34:14 not fic? Nov 11 12:34:22 Linux_Galore_: not looked at n95 indetail - any good? Nov 11 12:34:24 its for dash Nov 11 12:34:26 a customer Nov 11 12:34:30 Ive got to buy a new mobile for the wife, she wants a Moto V8 Nov 11 12:34:30 ah Nov 11 12:34:34 fic are the oem Nov 11 12:34:37 thus i ignore it in the world of neo phones Nov 11 12:34:42 right Nov 11 12:35:03 its an orthogonal product Nov 11 12:35:10 ScaredyCat: its very heavy (huge battery) bit too much bling for me Nov 11 12:35:12 for dash Nov 11 12:35:14 not for us Nov 11 12:35:18 also very interesting, dash! Nov 11 12:35:31 running openmoko? Nov 11 12:35:40 running linux Nov 11 12:35:44 guaqua: yes, modified I think Nov 11 12:35:58 right, you've all kept me up too late. night Nov 11 12:36:10 doc|home: night Nov 11 12:36:18 I love the OM project, I just hate the phones lol Nov 11 12:36:25 so we buy an hdx8, grab the navigation app, runit on a neo Nov 11 12:36:35 Linux_Galore_: don't like the design? Nov 11 12:36:40 Linux_Galore_: same sorta :) Nov 11 12:36:41 edistar_: hate it Nov 11 12:36:44 me too Nov 11 12:36:47 fugly :/ Nov 11 12:36:55 not a deal breaker, but still Nov 11 12:36:58 fugly is the new cool ;) Nov 11 12:37:01 I like it, luckily, but I'm planning to build my own case Nov 11 12:37:03 it's no jesus phone Nov 11 12:37:14 (design wise) Nov 11 12:37:18 jesus can suck my cock Nov 11 12:37:20 * doc|home did not utter the i-word Nov 11 12:37:22 Linux_Galore_: what if we came out with a much sexier design some time in the future - same software stack (but evolving to be nicer) Nov 11 12:37:38 it's not a regular phone for regular folks.. Nov 11 12:37:40 not exactly a marketing tool for Linux, hai look my mobile phone can do all these things and win a fugly phone of the year award Nov 11 12:37:48 (then again not everyone likes the same design - tis a very personal taste thing) Nov 11 12:37:51 ScaredyCat: warning to keep the channel clean...you damn pussy :P Nov 11 12:37:51 if you want that, get a standrd off the shelf one Nov 11 12:37:56 openmoko synthesizer, anyone? Nov 11 12:38:30 raster: I think that'll be necessary to make it mainstream phone (which must be fic's plan. right?) Nov 11 12:38:36 Sup3rkiddo: bleh! he's not even real Nov 11 12:38:42 raster: Im happy to pay extra for a Linux phone but I want to to at least look decent next to a Nokia or a LG unit Nov 11 12:38:46 doc|home: we'll see Nov 11 12:38:48 it to* Nov 11 12:38:52 but the current design isnt the be all and end all Nov 11 12:38:59 * doc|home thinks there's something we're not being told! Nov 11 12:39:02 * doc|home shuts up Nov 11 12:39:06 that road vapourware one looks ok... Nov 11 12:39:07 for now its not bad for DEVELOPING apps for Nov 11 12:39:10 shame youy can't buy it Nov 11 12:39:14 yep, I'll be buying one Nov 11 12:39:16 in the hope u will find a sexier case and cleaner innards later Nov 11 12:39:22 right Nov 11 12:39:24 mmm...sexy Nov 11 12:39:34 it's v1, most of us know that Nov 11 12:39:43 cool Nov 11 12:39:46 keep faith Nov 11 12:39:51 amen Nov 11 12:39:51 i too belive its ugly as sin Nov 11 12:40:05 i think we have some faith in the hardware, the s/w is the worring bit Nov 11 12:40:05 freedom can often be ugly Nov 11 12:40:07 but it DOES run linux Nov 11 12:40:09 and its hackable Nov 11 12:40:22 I've got a great looking phone,but the software sucks so I want to ditch it Nov 11 12:40:24 and i fully intend to try and get out of the project hole i have been sucked into Nov 11 12:40:33 I've yet to have a phone which I've liked using Nov 11 12:40:41 and get to making moko phones that will blow the panties off everything around you Nov 11 12:40:44 doc|home: agreed. they all suck. Nov 11 12:40:51 6310i - was perfect phone for me... Nov 11 12:41:01 same here, Ive got this all dancing all prancing N95-8G and I dont really like it Nov 11 12:41:20 Linux_Galore_: well the hardware on that is nice. but the software.. bleh. Nov 11 12:41:32 I actually wish the neo had a few more buttons Nov 11 12:41:42 ScaredyCat: I loved the visual design of that phone, Nov 11 12:41:43 meus: hardware sux too the battery dies within a few hours Nov 11 12:41:51 Linux_Galore_: oh :/ Nov 11 12:41:54 if you play videos Nov 11 12:42:07 or do heavy internet use Nov 11 12:42:11 a ex-coworker had the original n95, and that lasted for a while iirc Nov 11 12:42:18 ah Nov 11 12:42:21 * doc|home zZzZz Nov 11 12:42:26 depends how you use it Im finding Nov 11 12:42:31 Linux_Galore_, that's not very unexpected then Nov 11 12:42:41 Ive learnt to turn everything off to save power Nov 11 12:43:07 well what is the use of lots of fancy features if they have to be turned off all the time :) Nov 11 12:43:14 so you use the neo like powermanagement Nov 11 12:43:42 Linux_Galore_: that is the case with almost every phone/device of that kind Nov 11 12:43:43 what really pisses me of to be honest is the phone doesnt give me the freedom of a nice Linux laptop etc Nov 11 12:43:59 they will only last 3-8hrs or so on battery if the cpu etc. are all running full ball doing stuff Nov 11 12:44:04 and especialyl the screen is on etc., Nov 11 12:44:08 the backlight eats power Nov 11 12:44:29 the only reason phones get multi-day standby times si because they literally suspend most of the phone when sitting around Nov 11 12:44:34 i'm guessing power management is the area with most to improve Nov 11 12:44:34 raster: have to put a decent battery in the thing then and maybe look at better backlighting Nov 11 12:44:45 only the most minimal parts are powered up to recieve signals from the phone network and thats it Nov 11 12:44:59 Linux_Galore_: decent battery means making it big and fat Nov 11 12:45:02 also adding lots of cost Nov 11 12:45:11 every one of these thigns costs money Nov 11 12:45:12 a lot Nov 11 12:45:13 i want iphonelinux Nov 11 12:45:15 and that adds to price Nov 11 12:45:24 raster: aaah, to an Apple optical illusion and make it thing and wide Nov 11 12:45:31 thin* Nov 11 12:45:33 the bateryt we have in the get-02 is actually quite hefty Nov 11 12:45:52 40% bigger IIRC Nov 11 12:45:52 raster: aaah, do an Apple optical illusion and make it thin and wide Nov 11 12:45:57 Linux_Galore_: and in return for that work happle has done to thin it down Nov 11 12:46:01 you cant change the battery Nov 11 12:46:10 as they basically cut every bit of covering and case out they could Nov 11 12:46:15 you pay a price Nov 11 12:46:23 also apple have invested a small fortune in the iphone design Nov 11 12:46:38 raster: yeah, I agree, making the iPhone thin removed the ability to change the battery Nov 11 12:46:41 openmoko isnt *THAT flush with cash to do such a thing Nov 11 12:46:51 unless of course you guys go buy millions of our gta-01's and 02's Nov 11 12:46:58 then we will have the cash to make some amazing stuff Nov 11 12:46:59 :) Nov 11 12:47:13 :D Nov 11 12:47:16 our main problem is software Nov 11 12:47:22 the fact we cant reliably suspend currently Nov 11 12:47:26 and come back and work 100% Nov 11 12:47:31 and go back and forth Nov 11 12:47:34 or this http://www.wired.com/science/discoveries/news/2002/01/49717 Nov 11 12:47:35 suspend is the trick Nov 11 12:47:42 raster: have you seen a gta02bv4 yet? Nov 11 12:47:53 cb22: yes Nov 11 12:47:55 i have one Nov 11 12:48:00 lucky basterd Nov 11 12:48:03 raster: not really, if you looks at the hardware in the iPhone closely they didnt do that much, the cpu and display stuff was right out of the iPOD and the display is an off the shelf product from Germany Nov 11 12:48:11 how does it seem speed wise compared to the 01? Nov 11 12:48:14 cb22: i work for openmoko - so it shouldnt be surprising :) Nov 11 12:48:43 Linux_Galore_: you need to look a lot more closely. Nov 11 12:48:59 cb22: hard for me to say. i'd love one that actually boots properly Nov 11 12:49:02 :) Nov 11 12:49:06 haha Nov 11 12:49:12 gfx is entirely different Nov 11 12:49:18 raster: the fabrication though I will admit looks expensive Nov 11 12:49:19 its on a smedia gfx chip Nov 11 12:49:20 accelerated Nov 11 12:49:22 how so? Nov 11 12:49:25 faster graphics? Nov 11 12:49:26 much slower system -> video mem bus Nov 11 12:49:33 but the gfx chip can accel a lot of ops Nov 11 12:49:39 the driver is nowehere near done Nov 11 12:49:44 so its way too early to tell Nov 11 12:50:04 torpor: we use an smedia 3362 chip Nov 11 12:50:12 raster: I'm curious, is the casing of GTA02 identical to GTA01? Is the casing of GTA02 even done yet? Nov 11 12:50:19 it has limitatiosn though that make it incredibly hard to make it very useful for lots of things Nov 11 12:50:26 CoreDump: 100% identical Nov 11 12:50:30 raster: howcome? Nov 11 12:50:33 raster: thanks Nov 11 12:50:45 raster: make the GTA03 expandable so people can buy extra add on's like a VGA camera module etc Nov 11 12:50:45 cb22: eg. for 3d the max 3d rendering buffer is 511x511 Nov 11 12:50:53 * torpor looks forward to bumping the windowmanager and watching it flip in his hands .. Nov 11 12:50:54 we cant even do 640x480 gl screens Nov 11 12:51:01 it falls short of 640 Nov 11 12:51:03 raster, well that's somewhat nasty then Nov 11 12:51:03 ouch Nov 11 12:51:19 thats why i chose to skip opengl as an important thing to do Nov 11 12:51:26 *nod* Nov 11 12:51:27 its limitatiosn begin to show the more you read the specs Nov 11 12:51:36 Linux_Galore_: they say there will be no gta03 Nov 11 12:51:36 for us i think its a waste of resources to sink it into GL accel Nov 11 12:51:41 with limitatiosn like that Nov 11 12:51:56 it has 2d accel too Nov 11 12:52:03 a blitter, filler, line drawer etc. Nov 11 12:52:07 it can even alpha blend and scale images Nov 11 12:52:09 BUT Nov 11 12:52:11 more limits Nov 11 12:52:23 the hw can only blit/blend/fill 640x640 at max Nov 11 12:52:24 sure Nov 11 12:52:25 but if you could run the screen in 320 mode, wouldnt it be useful for games and the like? Nov 11 12:52:29 the sCREEN is 640x480 Nov 11 12:52:35 BUT offscreen pxiamsp can be much bigger Nov 11 12:52:40 so we need to work around that Nov 11 12:52:45 cb22: we could Nov 11 12:52:46 but again Nov 11 12:52:51 the usefulness declines Nov 11 12:52:51 raster: very few phones have resolution that high even today Nov 11 12:52:56 Linux_Galore_: yup Nov 11 12:52:58 indeed the usefulness declines Nov 11 12:53:06 the chip really is build for 320x240 (qvga) Nov 11 12:53:09 but it is able to do vga Nov 11 12:53:12 or it seems that way Nov 11 12:53:13 the 2d stuff is clearly more important Nov 11 12:53:16 raster: why not just run at a lower res for most thing then flip higher then needed Nov 11 12:53:24 the 2d accel can handle higher resolutions no problem Nov 11 12:53:24 when* Nov 11 12:53:27 BUT then it has limits Nov 11 12:53:41 it can read argb32 8888 source pixels (premul alpha) Nov 11 12:53:44 raster: you dont need super high res for many things Nov 11 12:53:45 exactly what xrender uses Nov 11 12:53:48 perfect... Nov 11 12:53:49 BUT Nov 11 12:53:59 it can only blend TO rgb555 abd 565 destinations Nov 11 12:54:03 raster: but for making OM look sexy...? Nov 11 12:54:06 so you cannot take argb sources Nov 11 12:54:13 render to an argb intermediate image Nov 11 12:54:16 then composite later Nov 11 12:54:47 Linux_Galore_: only useful for fullscreen games basically Nov 11 12:54:49 raster: seems like swimming the atlantic to get a bag of sugar Nov 11 12:55:00 again Nov 11 12:55:04 it does a lot of nice things Nov 11 12:55:10 but then has gaps Nov 11 12:55:16 that really break the pipeline Nov 11 12:55:20 raster, well, try and make the best of it Nov 11 12:55:23 and if u break the pipeline Nov 11 12:55:28 you need to fallback to software Nov 11 12:55:31 and then - game over Nov 11 12:55:40 as u need to transprot pixels to and fron on a bvery limited bus Nov 11 12:55:42 with the cpu Nov 11 12:55:48 we will do the best we can Nov 11 12:55:53 but we dont hve forever Nov 11 12:55:53 raster, how's the mpeg-4 stuff by the way? Nov 11 12:55:57 and limited resources Nov 11 12:56:04 errm... Nov 11 12:56:06 *nod* Nov 11 12:56:09 mjr: we are working on xvmc support Nov 11 12:56:24 ok, so shouldn't they have asked someone, like you, who knew this stuff ? Nov 11 12:56:31 raster: Im thinking run it at low res so you have some overhead for eye candy effects then video, pdf files,email run at a higher setting Nov 11 12:56:35 we have other stability problems to solve with video mem contents doing strange things Nov 11 12:56:36 before designing the board? Nov 11 12:56:43 raster: isn't xvmc only mpeg2? Nov 11 12:56:57 cb22: its the core of being able to do mp4 too Nov 11 12:57:11 ScaredyCat: too late Nov 11 12:57:12 nice Nov 11 12:57:13 the chip is there Nov 11 12:57:19 i only came on board last month Nov 11 12:57:34 I know, but it seems pretty obvious to you what's needed Nov 11 12:57:38 all i can say is - we will do the best we can Nov 11 12:57:40 * mjr also reminds people that it's probably still the best chip they can get wrt. freedom requirements Nov 11 12:57:48 if we can manage it - we will publish the chip specs too Nov 11 12:57:49 if possible Nov 11 12:57:51 raster: did you see the video of e17 running on the NEO Nov 11 12:57:51 so they should have got someone who knows this stuff to loo at it Nov 11 12:57:59 look Nov 11 12:58:08 (we currently can publish any drivers we write under any open license we wnt, but cant' release the specs we have under nda) Nov 11 12:58:24 Linux_Galore_: yup - i did. and thats slow :) it needs some tuning Nov 11 12:58:24 :) Nov 11 12:58:25 * CoreDump has fond memories of running e17 on his Zaurus PDA =) Nov 11 12:58:53 have faith Nov 11 12:59:00 we will try and get you the best experience we can Nov 11 12:59:03 it just may take some time Nov 11 12:59:12 I like the new layout for the main screen on the NEO, the big clock etc I like Nov 11 12:59:23 indeed Nov 11 12:59:28 software=wise we have many other thngs to fix on the gta-02 to make it usable for you guys to develop on Nov 11 12:59:45 * mjr does hope we can get 3d drivers or enough rewritten specs to build them at _some_ point. Of course, not expecting them for the release of the device or anything... Nov 11 12:59:50 i have plans i want to see happen that would bring a completely radical nxt-gen ui Nov 11 13:00:01 something far beyond what u've seen form apple or anyone else Nov 11 13:00:02 raster: you have until Monday 12th ... Nov 11 13:00:11 ScaredyCat: heheheh Nov 11 13:00:17 lol Nov 11 13:00:18 thats in 1 minute Nov 11 13:00:24 oops Nov 11 13:00:25 actually Nov 11 13:00:28 thats now Nov 11 13:00:29 :) Nov 11 13:00:38 * ScaredyCat double checks Nov 11 13:00:39 you have 9 hours in my books ;) Nov 11 13:00:49 same from me Nov 11 13:01:05 anyone know how to fix the problem with the RNDIS driver under OSX where it gets a new en# every time you plug/unplug the neo? Nov 11 13:01:13 Mon Nov 12 00:01:10 EST 2007 Nov 11 13:01:22 e17 runs on the neo? Nov 11 13:01:34 torpor: yes. why wouldn't it? Nov 11 13:01:46 torpor: yep, video on youtube, just search for openmoko Nov 11 13:01:47 i threw it on my n800 for giggles a few months back Nov 11 13:01:58 (and hey, in principle you should be able to split the ogl rendering into two buffers, though 'course, that'd be a whole new category of driver effort and overhead ;] ) Nov 11 13:02:26 mjr: ys - in principle Nov 11 13:02:31 but if u want a gta-02 soon Nov 11 13:02:37 been years since I used N17 Nov 11 13:02:40 * cb22 wants one soon Nov 11 13:02:42 u dont want us to start spending lots of our time writing all this Nov 11 13:02:57 raster, yes yes, see my previous lines :] Nov 11 13:03:01 raster: is it planned to be released once the _basic_ driver support is done? Nov 11 13:03:09 I never liked Enlightenment for some reason Nov 11 13:03:16 cb22: yes Nov 11 13:03:31 and from all indications the hardware is stable? Nov 11 13:03:41 not yet Nov 11 13:03:50 Linux_Galore_: not a star trek fan? Nov 11 13:04:07 torpor: not really, Im an anime fan Nov 11 13:04:18 * cb22 keeps his fingers crossed for a december / january release Nov 11 13:04:24 Are there any plans to integrate some sort of automatic update for openmoko? Like over wlan or something? Or even to update the firmware later? Nov 11 13:04:35 IfChinsCouldKill: ipkg upgrade? Nov 11 13:04:43 automatic - not until we have a lot more userspace done well Nov 11 13:04:47 but it is able to be updated Nov 11 13:04:54 u'll ned to go to the cmdline for now Nov 11 13:04:59 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vbqx_HdLs-k Nov 11 13:05:26 heh, make a LCARS UI for the OM Nov 11 13:05:35 now that would be sad Nov 11 13:06:05 someone has made a LCARS rig for the N800/770 Nov 11 13:06:21 yes there is a video on youtube Nov 11 13:06:24 Yeah. I wondered how cool it would be to go to sleep and wake up and have lots of coll software being automatically installed while i was asleep... Nov 11 13:06:40 IfChinsCouldKill: its possible at the lowest levels Nov 11 13:06:51 but we would want a nice ui on top to give u status etc. etc. Nov 11 13:07:02 though right now we would like a wifi driver too Nov 11 13:07:03 and to stop it doing it Nov 11 13:07:03 :) Nov 11 13:07:10 ScaredyCat: yup Nov 11 13:07:39 I noticed McDonalds no has WiFi in some places Nov 11 13:07:43 now* Nov 11 13:08:15 yeah, you can surf and get fat at the same time Nov 11 13:08:27 hehe Nov 11 13:08:36 surf the web as your arteries clog up Nov 11 13:08:46 afaik you have to pay for macdonnalds-wlan-access sih Nov 11 13:08:58 ! Nov 11 13:09:08 with your arteries? Nov 11 13:09:15 zash: its free, you just have to login ans give them your email Nov 11 13:09:31 and, go to macdonnalds Nov 11 13:09:44 http://www.mcdonalds.com/wireless/general_info.html Nov 11 13:10:02 there is a starbucks near the park were I sometimes work and I sit down with my laptop in the park and download stuff heh Nov 11 13:10:50 McMoko sounds like a plan. Nov 11 13:11:06 red and yellow McMoko Nov 11 13:11:37 can I have a McMoko please, do you want skype with that Nov 11 13:12:41 Get one McMoko and 1GB SD-Ram for free Nov 11 13:12:54 speaking of 1g sd ram, i just put that in my moko Nov 11 13:13:19 1Gb sd ram is cheap now Nov 11 13:13:38 i'm trying to get root on sd working .. but alas it seems that my neo doesn't like the sd card for some reason .. Nov 11 13:13:41 anyone else got this working? Nov 11 13:14:17 hmm, i just had an idea: hook a psp up to a neo to use as a second screen via vnc or similar Nov 11 13:14:32 that would be pretty cool, would a neo be fast enough? Nov 11 13:17:38 Torbor: Is that what you're looking for? http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Booting_from_SD Nov 11 13:17:49 cb22: I can run a vnc server on my 770, it's a tiny bit slow but works Nov 11 13:18:04 torpor even Nov 11 13:18:21 IfChinsCouldKill: yes thats what i'm doing. Nov 11 13:18:43 edistar_: i'm thinking of using my psp as like a terminal screen Nov 11 13:18:45 but for some reason - i can't see the message onscreen - the neo boots from NAND and not SD. but it does see the SD when its done booting though. Nov 11 13:18:47 so i can do whatever on my neo Nov 11 13:19:03 and then type (using a bt keyboard) into a terminal running on the vnc screen displayed on the psp Nov 11 13:19:07 should be possible... why not use the psp as a bt keyboard ;) Nov 11 13:19:28 i have an apple bt keyboard hooked up to my neo, it works very well and rocks ass.. Nov 11 13:19:40 cb22: bit complicated though.. what would be the big advantage? Nov 11 13:19:41 torpor: did you make sur ehte kernel have ext2 included, not as a module? Nov 11 13:19:55 ScaredyCat: yup. Nov 11 13:20:16 but if it didn't have ext2 as a module, it would hang with 'cant mount root' .. but what it does instead is it boots the kernel from NAND .. Nov 11 13:20:59 lemmie grab my other sd card and I'll give it a go too Nov 11 13:21:14 maybe i need a newer uboot .. i'm running 1.2.0moko9_r0 Nov 11 13:21:23 i'll put a newer uboot on and see if that works .. Nov 11 13:23:28 what are you ruinning then? Nov 11 13:23:40 uboot 1.2.0 - the latest Nov 11 13:23:48 but if i say 'boot from sd' it just boots from nand Nov 11 13:26:57 they really need to make the insert/remove of memory cards easier... :( Nov 11 13:28:28 ScaredyCat: I don't think so, SD card only used to external the storage size, not for the function of USB disk. Nov 11 13:29:15 When you want copy some small file, you can use bluetooth, and usb cable for large files:) Nov 11 13:31:14 yes, but when I want to upgrade my card, or change it it's a PITA Nov 11 13:50:36 is it right that there is currently no other option to send/receive sms then libgsmd-tool or cu? Nov 11 13:51:17 I read about SMStool but it can only write sms not receive, right? Nov 11 13:53:30 I read that kristian-m is developing it, right? can I help? Nov 11 13:53:59 sending/receiving sms is the only reason I still didn't bump my symbian phone Nov 11 13:54:06 hi Nov 11 13:54:17 ah hi Nov 11 13:54:38 okay i'm getting "undefined instruction" and then the CPU resets when i try to boot from SD .. Nov 11 13:54:42 kristian-m, is there any way one can contribute to your tool? Nov 11 13:54:50 i used my video camera to record the bootup so i could read the message frame .. Nov 11 13:54:59 josch yes, just send me a patch Nov 11 13:55:14 i wonder if there is some partition setup that has to be done first to make an SD card bootable .. Nov 11 13:55:16 josch i plan to put my stuff into svn soon Nov 11 13:55:22 kristian-m, are you currently developing on it? I do not want to do ... Nov 11 13:55:28 ah okay... wanted to ask this Nov 11 13:55:33 josch nop, not currently Nov 11 13:56:01 josch if you like just do the new release ant link it to the wiki :-) Nov 11 13:56:05 so its save for me to frickle around with it without makeing some duplicates of things you do atm Nov 11 13:56:17 josch jap Nov 11 13:56:36 kristian-m, super! I will dive into your code right away! Nov 11 13:57:49 josch have fun ;-) Nov 11 13:58:14 kristian-m, I will! I hate my symbian phone!! Nov 11 13:58:20 :-D Nov 11 14:00:18 hey, I finally managed to do "make qemu" by running it in a virtual machine of debian stable (it doesnt work on debian unstable for whatever reason), after starting the qemu image I get what I assume is the bootscreen, but it just hangs when the status bar gets to the end... is this normal, or is there something I am doing wrong? Nov 11 14:01:27 dashavoo, you are running debian in a VM on debian? why not using a chroot environment for such tasks? Nov 11 14:01:53 * dashavoo kicks himself Nov 11 14:01:58 didnt occur to me Nov 11 14:02:05 qemu was on my mind Nov 11 14:03:28 but anyway, thats not the point anymore (says he as he diverts attention away from his stupidity), just not sure why openmoko just hangs where it does Nov 11 14:04:12 dashavoo: How long did you wait for it to boot? Nov 11 14:04:19 It takes ages in qemu Nov 11 14:05:20 CM, ah ok... about how long? because the status bar moved at a pretty reasonable speed at first but since it got to the end (or just before it really), it hasnt moved in 10 minutes Nov 11 14:05:47 Hmm.. 10 minutes should definitely be enough, think it used to take about 5-6 on mine Nov 11 14:06:01 Can you ssh in? Nov 11 14:06:07 has nobody done root-on-SD? Nov 11 14:06:39 torpor: I've only heard people talk about it, but that was long ago and I don't know if anyone succeeded Nov 11 14:06:58 CM: it seems to me as if there are people who hae done it .. but i guess i'm running into issues here with this for some reason Nov 11 14:07:20 the screencap says 'undefined instruction', so that means its not reading the image off SD properly, or the image is itself corrupt Nov 11 14:07:22 * CM searches the google Nov 11 14:07:25 so i'll try the whole set up again .. Nov 11 14:07:46 torpor: Are you following this one: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Booting_from_SD Nov 11 14:07:49 CM, how would I go about sshing in? (how would I find the IP address is what im asking) Nov 11 14:08:05 CM: yes. but i'm wondering if there is a geometry condition .. like i can't use a 1gig partition or something .. Nov 11 14:08:19 torpor: Ah, that's possible Nov 11 14:09:02 dashavoo: Honestly I don't know. I've never tried. I think you have to use gadgetfs somehow, should be in the wiki too Nov 11 14:09:37 dashavoo: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/OpenMoko_under_QEMU#Setting_up_USB_connection Nov 11 14:09:48 thanks Nov 11 14:11:44 dashavoo: It's easier to search here than directly in the wiki btw: http://aiurlano.netsons.org/OpenMoko/ Nov 11 14:12:07 * CM hints to Ghiottone's custom search Nov 11 14:12:37 ah, cool Nov 11 14:13:00 It also searches all relevant bugzillas, api's, mailinglists and so on Nov 11 14:13:01 bookmarked Nov 11 14:13:06 :) Nov 11 14:17:21 what should come after neo_modem_rst_switch: Modem reset. ? Nov 11 14:17:33 because thats where it just stops Nov 11 14:17:56 oh damn Nov 11 14:18:07 whats the cmd to rebuild the kernel image (uImage)? Nov 11 14:19:49 torpor: make uImage :) Nov 11 14:20:06 mmm... Nov 11 14:20:19 I can't get it to boot from sd either torpor Nov 11 14:21:00 ScaredyCat: darn Nov 11 14:21:03 balrog-kun: thanks. Nov 11 14:21:11 ScaredyCat: what is the geom of your SD card? Nov 11 14:21:31 i'm trying now with a 1gig card formatted to two partitions. if that doesn't work i'll try a 512meg card .. Nov 11 14:21:36 it's a 512 that came with the neo Nov 11 14:21:47 maybe u-boot doesn't know about geometry other than that of the micro-SD's that openmoko shipped with the phones .. Nov 11 14:21:51 oh damn Nov 11 14:23:37 some people seem t get it working with no problems... Nov 11 14:23:41 apparently Nov 11 14:23:57 torpor: I'd guess "make build-package-linux-openmoko" or linux-openmoko-devel should give you a new kernel image Nov 11 14:24:32 CM: thanks Nov 11 14:24:48 dashavoo: hmm, hangs for me too Nov 11 14:24:51 ScaredyCat: i guess its a matter of geometry .. is your disk formatted with linux partitions, and ext2/ext3? Nov 11 14:27:58 it's just 512mb of ext2 Nov 11 14:28:04 1 partitiion Nov 11 14:29:20 balrog-kun, atleast I know its not just me... wish I knew how to sort it though Nov 11 14:30:52 dashavoo: hmm, the system is apparently still alive, just doesn't go into the gui Nov 11 14:31:04 i'll try to ssh into it Nov 11 14:32:14 ScaredyCat: i'm trying now with ext3, inc ase that makes a difference. Nov 11 14:33:34 afaik ext3 on a sd card is a bad idea Nov 11 14:35:27 it does add some write load, but I shouldn't think it's overmuch Nov 11 14:36:01 i'd be happy if it just worked. Nov 11 14:47:45 mahlzeit Nov 11 15:02:54 balrog-kun, any success ssh'ing into it? Nov 11 15:06:01 Hi everyone Nov 11 15:06:28 hi TimTemple Nov 11 15:07:36 dashavoo: no, but it booted for me Nov 11 15:07:41 Got some time to play with my neo but still struggling with the usb networking Nov 11 15:07:44 dashavoo: so i didn't try anymore Nov 11 15:08:00 Anychance you can help me out? Nov 11 15:08:15 dashavoo: i had forgotten that i had modified my rootfs so that it wouldn't go into gui, when i reflashed it works Nov 11 15:08:27 dashavoo: there's something wrong with the USB host though Nov 11 15:08:32 what's the problem TimTemple? Nov 11 15:08:41 but there are new sounds (yay!) Nov 11 15:09:18 ok, guess I will have to mess about a bit more Nov 11 15:10:03 Well, I went through the wiki steps and can log into the neo. From the neo I can ping the host fine but nothing else on my network. I kinda figured it might not work since my network is 192.168.0 Nov 11 15:10:16 dashavoo: i'm configuring qemu with --enable-phonesim, it might have something to do with this Nov 11 15:10:26 have you set up routing? Nov 11 15:11:10 you can try my script, for a quick setup.. (iirc it's linked from the wiki page) Nov 11 15:11:11 Is that adding gateway 10.10.10.21 to /etc/network/interfaces? Nov 11 15:11:19 balrog-kun, ok, il try that Nov 11 15:12:00 * balrog-kun will bbl Nov 11 15:17:40 anyone know if linux has an equiviliant to freebsd's snp and watch(8)? Nov 11 15:18:16 what's it do? Nov 11 15:18:16 cb22: what is snp? Nov 11 15:19:25 torpor: Nov 11 15:19:39 http://heapsort.de/mancmp.php?query=snp Nov 11 15:19:41 it allows you to SNooP on ttys Nov 11 15:19:41 !ombug 799 Nov 11 15:19:42 * * Bug 799, Status: NEW, Created: Unknown Nov 11 15:19:43 * * obri(AT)chaostreff.ch: data abort while reading from SD Cards Nov 11 15:19:44 * * http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=799 Nov 11 15:20:26 http://www.bsdguides.org/guides/freebsd/misc/watch.php Nov 11 15:20:33 cb22: A friend of mine built a LD_PRELOAD wrapper to do something like that... Nov 11 15:20:52 TobiX: hmm, sounds a bit too complex for me Nov 11 15:20:58 googling "linux tty snooping" finds http://linux.softpedia.com/get/System/Logging/Snoop-3341.shtml Nov 11 15:20:58 ScaredyCat: thanks. so it looks like it doesn't work. Nov 11 15:21:18 welll, not quite... Nov 11 15:21:25 we just need to find a newer uboot Nov 11 15:21:27 i'm not gettng "data abort" though, i'm getting "undefined instruction", then it reboots . . . Nov 11 15:21:40 mjr: great, thx. /me slaps himself for missing that Nov 11 15:21:49 but there seems to be no way to tell which is which Nov 11 15:21:59 what uboot do you have? Nov 11 15:22:05 i have 1.2.0 aug 19 Nov 11 15:22:34 i have 1.2.0-moko9_r0 Nov 11 15:22:41 21 August 07 Nov 11 15:22:48 ok Nov 11 15:22:53 i wonder what we should do then ? Nov 11 15:23:16 try to find a good u-boot i suppose .. . . . Nov 11 15:23:27 i have a newer uboot (31st Aug,) but I don;t know if that'd fix it Nov 11 15:25:25 ScaredyCat: you're not running it though right? Nov 11 15:25:29 you just have it handy, non-flashed? Nov 11 15:25:41 correct Nov 11 15:25:50 wanna give it to me and i'll test it? Nov 11 15:25:54 I might well just flash it Nov 11 15:25:59 ok Nov 11 15:26:27 i really wanna get a 1gig rootfs set up with my neo .. necessary to my continued hacking .. so if there's anything i can do to continue debug this, let me know Nov 11 15:26:49 * torpor does "make rebuild-package-uboot-openmoko" to see what happens .. Nov 11 15:28:37 it flashed, but didn't appear to make any differenct Nov 11 15:28:48 okay i'm building uboot now from source, lets see wht happens. Nov 11 15:28:48 difference Nov 11 15:32:58 okay ScaredyCat i just put ./u-boot-gta01bv4-1.2.0+gitf34024d4a328e6edd906456da98d2c537155c4f7+svn2943-r1.bin onboard Nov 11 15:33:06 seems not to make a difference Nov 11 15:33:25 what a compact version definition :) Nov 11 15:33:27 :( Nov 11 15:35:50 damnit that is annoying Nov 11 15:36:01 we need to find someone who has this working and find out what u-boot they have. Nov 11 15:37:29 yes Nov 11 15:37:39 what you trying to get working? Nov 11 15:37:43 otherwise it seems to be broken Nov 11 15:37:44 :( Nov 11 15:37:54 xzcvczx: boting from sd Nov 11 15:37:57 booting Nov 11 15:38:34 oh not a clue sorry Nov 11 15:38:58 no, we'v been trying for ages :/ Nov 11 15:39:00 does the bug still happen though where too much card io == die? Nov 11 15:39:09 seems a bug in u-boot possibly Nov 11 15:39:18 no, hat bug is fixed Nov 11 15:39:22 that Nov 11 15:39:26 oh ok Nov 11 15:40:21 gah 4:39am and i just got home :S damn mspaint+powerpoint Nov 11 15:42:02 torpor: if you boot to u-boot and do an mmcinit, what do you get for the 'size' Nov 11 15:42:17 size = 0 Nov 11 15:42:17 GTA01Bv4 # Nov 11 15:42:24 problem is i havent worked out how to 'boot to uboot' yet .. i'm on mac osx .. Nov 11 15:42:30 which i'm guessing is why mine wint boot Nov 11 15:42:37 ahh ok Nov 11 15:43:20 is it normal that when you select "console on usb" uboot scrolls the screen, waits a few seconds, then returns to the menu? Nov 11 15:44:18 yes Nov 11 15:44:19 torpor, also happens on my neo Nov 11 15:44:29 so how do you get to the usb seril console then ScaredyCat ? Nov 11 15:44:47 I just fire up minicom on ttyACM0 Nov 11 15:45:20 you might need to modprobe cmc_acm Nov 11 15:45:23 cdc_acm Nov 11 15:45:50 you can get minicom for osx right? Nov 11 15:45:53 yeah Nov 11 15:46:03 but the problem is that uboot goes back to the menu before i see the device .. Nov 11 15:46:17 you don't need to use those options Nov 11 15:46:40 ah did not know that Nov 11 15:46:44 i'll try now Nov 11 15:46:45 just setuo minicom, get readyt to start it, boot to uboot, start minicom Nov 11 15:47:09 dmesg to see if the device is seen too.. Nov 11 15:47:26 torpor: have you tried "boot from sdhc" (eg. kernel from nand ) it works for me on a 6gb SDHC card i just have to set a rootdelay=10 Nov 11 15:47:51 ok Nov 11 15:47:52 it works. Nov 11 15:47:56 i mean - i have serial console. Nov 11 15:47:57 what u-boot version geneberg? Nov 11 15:48:00 ool Nov 11 15:48:02 cool Nov 11 15:48:09 now type mmcinit Nov 11 15:48:29 you should get 'some stuff' and the last line is size Nov 11 15:48:31 geneberg: what version of uboot are you using? Nov 11 15:48:39 ScaredyCat: yeah hang on doing an rafb Nov 11 15:49:10 http://rafb.net/p/ykvdT482.html Nov 11 15:49:21 * ScaredyCat gets a poking stick out and aims at geneberg Nov 11 15:49:22 self build 1.2+gitcantremember Nov 11 15:49:31 i take a look Nov 11 15:49:37 would be helpful Nov 11 15:49:46 what other envs should i set in uboot to make it nicer to work with? Nov 11 15:49:52 you should be able to see it in dmesg geneberg Nov 11 15:49:57 how do i kill the delay for example? i want it to never timeout and boot up .. Nov 11 15:50:09 ext2load mmc 0 0x32000000 /boot/uImage Nov 11 15:50:16 try that torpor Nov 11 15:50:20 okay gonna do that. Nov 11 15:50:45 if it says 'resetting cpu' it's broke Nov 11 15:50:59 yeah its broke. Nov 11 15:52:05 hrm... can I ask about a gsmd problem I currently have? Nov 11 15:52:24 for the boot delay stuff use: setenv boot_menu_timeout 60 Nov 11 15:52:29 for 60 seconds Nov 11 15:52:30 ok Nov 11 15:52:36 don;t forget saveenv Nov 11 15:52:37 gotta remember to saveenv too i uppose .. ;) Nov 11 15:52:38 yup Nov 11 15:52:55 josch: of course... you don;t need to ask to ask Nov 11 15:52:55 err its a 1.3 : u-boot 1.3.0-rc11.2.0+gitf34024d4a328e6edd906456da98d2c537155c4f7+svn2943 23.sept 2007 Nov 11 15:53:09 ! Nov 11 15:53:14 so, I start the openmoko dialer and type in my pin, dial and everything is fine Nov 11 15:53:20 I hang up and dial again Nov 11 15:53:32 it shows that it is dialing but the phone wil not ring Nov 11 15:53:43 hello Nov 11 15:53:44 so I do /etc/init.d/gsdm stop start Nov 11 15:53:55 but nothing changes Nov 11 15:54:07 does anybody know about the WLAN release..? Is it out yet or planned for next model or something..? Nov 11 15:54:10 now I tried another thing and used libgsmd-tools Nov 11 15:54:39 there I tried Dxxxxxx to dial Nov 11 15:54:43 and nothing happend Nov 11 15:54:58 I found out that I got somehow disconnected from the network Nov 11 15:54:59 hrmm Nov 11 15:55:11 and so I did O to power on and typed in my pin Nov 11 15:55:20 and r to connect Nov 11 15:55:21 geneberg: did you build this yourself? Nov 11 15:55:34 then I can dial with Dxxxx and hangup Nov 11 15:55:45 and dial again and everything is fine Nov 11 15:55:48 torpor: yes Nov 11 15:55:55 but the openmoko dialer will not work Nov 11 15:56:18 so basically, all I need would be a little workaround Nov 11 15:56:35 mickeyl said to let a watchdog run that checks for gsmd Nov 11 15:56:47 ah one thing I forgot: Nov 11 15:56:57 in the first step when I used the openmoko dialer Nov 11 15:57:07 it seems to kill gsmd Nov 11 15:57:11 I have to restart it Nov 11 15:57:19 then I can use libgsmd-tools Nov 11 15:57:36 but starting gsmd will not reconnect my to the network Nov 11 15:57:51 and also the dialer seems to not beeing able to do this Nov 11 15:58:03 is this problem common? Nov 11 15:58:05 yoka: next model Nov 11 15:58:50 josch: hmm, in my case gsmd registers automatically with the network after restarting it Nov 11 15:58:58 geneberg: is there any chance you can share your uboot with us? Nov 11 15:58:59 openmoko dialer -> dialing -> hanging up -> dialing -> nothing happens -> restarting gsmd -> only able to use libgsmdtools Nov 11 15:59:04 josch: well atleast 90% of the time Nov 11 15:59:37 is there a simple command that gives me the current gsm connection status? Nov 11 15:59:46 or if the modem is powerd on? Nov 11 16:00:01 josch: Q? in libgsmd-tool? Nov 11 16:00:16 yeah.. :-) Nov 11 16:00:27 for now I'm doing everything with libgsm-tool ^^ Nov 11 16:00:37 I can live with it - no problem Nov 11 16:00:43 I was just wondering Nov 11 16:01:04 and while we are at libgsmd-tools Nov 11 16:01:07 josch: well if you are into python i have written a small script that does libgsmd-tool in shell mode.. Nov 11 16:01:38 Sup3rkiddo, let me guess: http://sudharsh.wordpress.com/2007/11/04/pygsmd-shell-shell-mode-of-libgsmd-tool-in-python/ Nov 11 16:01:39 josch: maybe just slap in a simple python script which checks for the network and restart gsmd? Nov 11 16:01:58 yeah I already had this in mind Nov 11 16:02:08 but wanted to ask if this is really necessary Nov 11 16:02:10 torpor: i take a look if i still have it Nov 11 16:02:11 geneberg: still with us? Nov 11 16:02:12 ok Nov 11 16:02:15 josch: :P hehe yeah, Nov 11 16:02:16 or if I'm doning something wrong Nov 11 16:02:22 \quit Nov 11 16:02:33 libgsmd-tools seems to work perfect Nov 11 16:02:35 josch: yeah libgsmd-tool is a cool tool.. Nov 11 16:02:42 so.. Nov 11 16:02:45 last question Nov 11 16:02:54 (I will go to hacking python then) Nov 11 16:03:06 how do I receive sms with libgsmd-tools Nov 11 16:03:12 josch: but thats an example of how to use pygsmd Nov 11 16:03:26 josch: well afaik, reading sms is a bit sloppy Nov 11 16:03:46 josch: works sometimes, but freezes everything.. Nov 11 16:03:58 everything?? Nov 11 16:04:22 josch: er..sorry, libgsmd-tool... Nov 11 16:04:37 josch: does sending sms work for you? Nov 11 16:04:45 hrrm ... I can't build u-boot now: :( Nov 11 16:05:23 ScaredyCat: i cant build the images, and i just deleted all my images in my backup and in the build/ directory..beat that Nov 11 16:05:50 well, you can use my images if you like :) Nov 11 16:06:21 josch: heres one trick...instead of daemonizing gsmd, start gsmd as /sbin/gsmd manually..it explains a lot of stuff Nov 11 16:06:23 Sup3rkiddo, didn't try to send them - I read the SMStool code and know how to do it but never tried Nov 11 16:06:29 ScaredyCat: :P Nov 11 16:06:40 Sup3rkiddo, thx for the tip Nov 11 16:06:56 but what's the libgsmd-tools command to check for sms? Nov 11 16:07:02 josch: especially you can see if AT commands are getting sent, which they are Nov 11 16:07:05 hmm i can just find 1.2 u-boot images Nov 11 16:07:18 josch: '?' for help...i guess its sr= Nov 11 16:07:48 ack... gsmd crashed again... Nov 11 16:07:59 I see no reason for crashing Nov 11 16:08:04 geneberg: doh! Nov 11 16:08:44 sr=X only prints 'reading SMS Nov 11 16:08:54 # Read SMS Nov 11 16:09:06 josch: yup... Nov 11 16:09:27 so this means I do not have any new sms? Nov 11 16:10:12 josch: no, if someone sends you an sms, an event should be triggerred and you should get something like. "Incoming SMS at location X..blah blah" Nov 11 16:10:23 and then you do a sr=X Nov 11 16:10:26 Sup3rkiddo, oha! Nov 11 16:10:30 so... Nov 11 16:10:39 josch: ask your girlfriend to send you an sms Nov 11 16:10:44 :P Nov 11 16:10:45 I did Nov 11 16:10:54 but this was before switching on the phone Nov 11 16:11:02 how do I get these messages? Nov 11 16:11:17 but i remember it wont work for me i set the rootdelay to 10 seconds (got a cant mount root ...) Nov 11 16:11:27 josch: hmm, i dont think you can..ask her send it again.. Nov 11 16:11:39 *unti i set ..l* Nov 11 16:12:08 Sup3rkiddo, you are not able to receive sms that were sent while you are offline with openmoko??? Nov 11 16:12:16 ScaredyCat: http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/device-owners/2007-September/000522.html Nov 11 16:12:33 Sup3rkiddo, this sounds like a huge downer Nov 11 16:13:20 404 torpor Nov 11 16:13:23 I can't imagin this beeing the case Nov 11 16:13:31 josch: nope..but hopefully should be fixed..(or i don't know)...switching the sim to my old nokia 3310, i am not getting the lost messages Nov 11 16:13:52 the messages are lost?? Nov 11 16:15:15 ScaredyCat: i'm gonna use the ones from here and see what happens: Nov 11 16:15:16 http://buildhost.automated.it/OM2007.1/u-boot/ Nov 11 16:15:17 Hmm... I haven't seen Harald in here for a while. Nov 11 16:15:29 I wonder what that means. Nov 11 16:15:43 josch: yeah, usually all messages that were sent by our buddies when the phone had been switched off are recieved after you switch it on..isn't it..But doesnt happen in the case of neo Nov 11 16:15:43 those are mine torpor Nov 11 16:15:44 :) Nov 11 16:16:20 oh damn Nov 11 16:16:23 i forgot about that. Nov 11 16:16:24 ;) Nov 11 16:16:25 i didnt know we had an automated buildhost! Nov 11 16:16:28 Sup3rkiddo, this is really, really a reason not to use openmoko for producticity Nov 11 16:16:49 josch: hehe. thats why its for the developers Nov 11 16:17:00 I mean - I can live with calling with libgsmd-tools but... Nov 11 16:17:03 okay ScaredyCat how about these! Nov 11 16:17:03 http://buildhost.openmoko.org/OM2007.1/tmp/deploy/images/ Nov 11 16:17:18 * Sup3rkiddo notes 2007.1 Nov 11 16:17:20 I am a developer but I want to bump my symbian phone Nov 11 16:17:48 josch: you obviously can't replace your symbian based one at this point of time with a neo Nov 11 16:18:24 Sup3rkiddo, hrm... think I will sell it anyway and replace it with a really cheap - neary broken one Nov 11 16:18:30 tire those too Nov 11 16:18:32 tried Nov 11 16:18:38 1 sec torpor... Nov 11 16:18:43 might be getting somewhere Nov 11 16:19:28 ok Nov 11 16:19:50 josch: oh come on, unless if you are in the isolated 850 mhz, selling it is weird.. Nov 11 16:20:11 Sup3rkiddo, how feature rich is your pygsmd atm? can I use it or stick to interfacing libgsmd-tools like smstools does? Nov 11 16:20:14 :O Nov 11 16:20:39 Sup3rkiddo, I want to sell it, since it's a very expansive phone - nokia E70 Nov 11 16:20:45 ok, getting somewhere, it boots from sd - partly Nov 11 16:20:45 hmm, the receiving of messages that were sent when phone was off shouldn't have anything to do with the phone you're using, it's done automaticlaly by network Nov 11 16:21:05 then kernel panics Nov 11 16:21:21 Sup3rkiddo, all the features it has I do not need anymore so I will sell it while I still get around 400 € for it Nov 11 16:21:30 No filesystem could nount root tried etx3 cramfs romfs Nov 11 16:21:36 balrog-kun: hmm yeah, but i have had some messages that had been lost...no delivery report had been given at the other end even after switching the sim.. Nov 11 16:21:45 ScaredyCat: that is progress! Nov 11 16:21:47 how'd you do that? Nov 11 16:22:09 Sup3rkiddo, should I use pygsmd or libgsmd-tools when I do a python app? Nov 11 16:22:33 Sup3rkiddo, is there a up to date feature list of your app? Nov 11 16:22:37 josch: libgsmd-tools is an example for using libgsmd API..for me Nov 11 16:22:56 josch: sure, just a sec.. Nov 11 16:23:06 uploaded the uboot torpor Nov 11 16:23:07 http://buildhost.automated.it/u-boot-good-for-sd-boot-r13_0_2632_0.bin Nov 11 16:23:24 great thanks ScaredyCat ! Nov 11 16:23:26 i'll try it now Nov 11 16:23:36 oh shit Nov 11 16:23:38 brick!! Nov 11 16:23:41 BRICK! Nov 11 16:23:41 ?! Nov 11 16:23:46 i bricked it. Nov 11 16:23:46 torpor, ?? Nov 11 16:23:50 how Nov 11 16:23:53 josch: http://projects.openmoko.org/plugins/scmsvn/viewcvs.php/python-gsmd/README?rev=92&root=python-openmoko&view=markup Nov 11 16:23:53 get the ambulance!! Nov 11 16:23:56 wtf Nov 11 16:23:58 ./u-boot-gta01bv4-1.2.0+svnnow-r14_a89cbbd27a60e6740772000fd0688ffba1c2576a_0_2938.bin Nov 11 16:24:03 ^^ produces a brick. Nov 11 16:24:10 f***... Nov 11 16:24:15 complete brick? Nov 11 16:24:19 torpor: you do have the debug board dont ya? Nov 11 16:24:21 seems like it. Nov 11 16:24:25 :( Nov 11 16:24:28 yeah i have the debug board .. Nov 11 16:24:32 never used it though. Nov 11 16:24:36 hope it works! Nov 11 16:25:00 torpor: lets pray it will...bricking anything isnt funny (unless its an iphone) Nov 11 16:25:38 damn how do i debrick!?!? Nov 11 16:25:49 Sup3rkiddo: ...and that's nowhere near as funny as seeing willitblend Nov 11 16:25:58 cjb_ie: hehe Nov 11 16:26:11 cjb_ie, :-D Nov 11 16:26:39 the one and only reason for me to visit youtube :-D Nov 11 16:27:51 torpor: buddy, http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Sjf2410-linux Nov 11 16:28:21 thanks Sup3rkiddo Nov 11 16:28:38 buildhost.openmoko.org is down. Nov 11 16:28:43 gargh! Nov 11 16:28:56 torpor: let us know if it works..seems like a bad omen since i was about to flash uboot for no reason Nov 11 16:29:00 doh Nov 11 16:29:13 i'm gonna do it.. Nov 11 16:29:24 anyone got sjf2410 local? Nov 11 16:31:30 josch: na, only some important ones work..voicecall works, phonebook write, read...some network routines..sms send seems to send AT commands, read barfs...guess thats about it :P Nov 11 16:31:35 here is my boot-env from dmesg ( sorry have seen it to late ) Nov 11 16:31:39 http://celpaste.morb-design.com/pastebin.php?show=m52afb4b9 Nov 11 16:32:19 Sup3rkiddo, hrm... so I'm kinda stuck with interfacing libgsmd-tools, am I? Nov 11 16:34:06 josch: libgsmd-tools..yeah but most of the stuff that it does could be achieved using pygsmd..works in my case...would love to have a scapegoat..=) Nov 11 16:35:25 josch: just curious, are you trying to develop using the libgsmd API, or just want to use the libgsmd-tool to do stuff? Nov 11 16:35:38 Sup3rkiddo, I know that it is possible to do all of this with pygsmd but If I understood you correctly, then sending receiving sms is not supported by pxgsmd? Nov 11 16:36:01 I will ligsmd-tools do the stuff like smstool does Nov 11 16:36:02 torpor: what are you after? Nov 11 16:36:37 http://buildhost.automated.it/OM2007.2/sjf2410 Nov 11 16:37:06 josch: i have the method in place but it doesnt work..AT commands are sent but i guess its an upstream problem as it doesnt work in the case of libgsmd-tool as well... Nov 11 16:37:47 * Sup3rkiddo didnt know about smstool until now Nov 11 16:37:50 Sup3rkiddo, what function specifically? Nov 11 16:38:06 torpor: Maybe put a bug report up about that uboot version? Nov 11 16:38:12 Sup3rkiddo, http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/SMSTool <= it's from kristian-m Nov 11 16:38:17 So no one else uses it by mistake.. Nov 11 16:39:28 josch: pygsmd.sms.read(index) should return a list with the number and the message Nov 11 16:40:18 Sup3rkiddo, so you say even with libgsmd-tools this is not possible? Nov 11 16:40:28 ScaredyCat: thanks! Nov 11 16:40:42 CM: i think the problem was i downloaded it wrong in the first place .. Nov 11 16:40:54 torpor: Ah, ok Nov 11 16:41:04 how does this work - i need to hook up parallel port or something? Nov 11 16:41:13 I need a known good uboot from after october 15th.. Nov 11 16:43:17 josch: not in my case atleast...it worked only once some weeks ago Nov 11 16:43:58 Sup3rkiddo, I understand your question "does it send sms" from before now Nov 11 16:44:12 Sup3rkiddo, will this try now Nov 11 16:44:48 josch: hmm ok. please do.. Nov 11 16:45:29 torpor: it's all usb Nov 11 16:45:38 cm : try mine :) Nov 11 16:45:54 ScaredyCat: Hmmm.. Might be worth a shot ;) Nov 11 16:45:59 Sure it works ok? Nov 11 16:46:12 I don't have a debug-board and it would be a pain to brick it Nov 11 16:47:12 josch: sending sms through libgsmd-tool works..i was of an impression that you were asking about reading them..sorry for the communication error.. Nov 11 16:47:48 Sup3rkiddo, just tried it out, np Nov 11 16:47:59 Sup3rkiddo, in fact I was speaking about reading them Nov 11 16:49:42 josch: but then again sms is quite sloppy, i'd say works around 40-50% of the time in my case..and the latest code for gsmd goes into libgsmd-devel tools afaik..if yours is r3074, its old Nov 11 16:50:02 Sup3rkiddo, the sms I sent with libgsmd-tools did not reach the recipient Nov 11 16:50:19 josch: ooh, dang... Nov 11 16:50:38 Sup3rkiddo, ?? Nov 11 16:51:16 josch: nm, check if gsmd crashed again? Nov 11 16:51:44 Sup3rkiddo, in this case, it would not show my carrier if I press P wouldn't it? Nov 11 16:52:27 josch: no it shouldnt.. Nov 11 16:52:36 so it's up and running Nov 11 16:52:49 oh damn this is annoying Nov 11 16:53:11 CM: I ust used the recent one Nov 11 16:53:30 josch: oh!, weird...try the libgsmd-devel ipks then, its bleeding edge gsmd Nov 11 16:53:45 Sup3rkiddo, k will try them Nov 11 16:54:09 Sup3rkiddo, I install them as usual with ipkg and then run libgsmd-tools again? Nov 11 16:54:57 josch: yeah but be careful though...you could end up with a recursive dependency horror story Nov 11 16:55:08 Sup3rkiddo, ^^ Nov 11 16:55:24 bleeding etch is better than sitting around an doing nothing Nov 11 16:55:35 * josch is prepared to cut himself Nov 11 16:55:48 etch... edge I mean ^^ Nov 11 16:56:07 <= debian adict Nov 11 16:56:09 josch: hehe true, but just take car as a host of things depends on gsmd... Nov 11 16:56:26 josch: :P, and etch and bleeding edge oxymorons Nov 11 16:56:32 Sup3rkiddo, will know more after trying! Nov 11 16:56:51 josch: good luck..=D, Nov 11 16:59:42 öh... where do I get a devel ipk? I though of them as the ipk files like libgsmd-dev_0.1+svnr3074-r37_fic-gta01.ipk Nov 11 17:00:01 but this has the same rev as my normal libgsmd Nov 11 17:00:54 josch: no no..make build-package-libgsmd-devel Nov 11 17:00:59 ah thx Nov 11 17:02:09 wow, my normal libgsmd is 300 revisions behind ^^ Nov 11 17:03:30 josch: that includes revisions in the other part of OM tree as well..so not much would have changed Nov 11 17:04:20 Sup3rkiddo, ah... kk Nov 11 17:07:29 Sup3rkiddo, okay, it's up and running - will now test sending sms Nov 11 17:08:12 josch: that was quick, O.O.....you didnt get any dependency warnings and such? Nov 11 17:08:28 yeah, while removing the old gsmd Nov 11 17:08:43 ah ok. Nov 11 17:08:56 it warned me that other packages depended on it but I ignored is Nov 11 17:09:13 s/is/it/ Nov 11 17:09:14 josch meant: it warned me that other packages depended on it but I ignored it Nov 11 17:09:33 thx apt... Nov 11 17:10:04 ~botsnack Nov 11 17:10:05 abraxa_: :) Nov 11 17:10:11 okay this sucks ass Nov 11 17:10:15 my debug board connector is broken Nov 11 17:10:25 looks like i'm screwed. consider me neo1973'less. Nov 11 17:10:26 * josch was faster writing regex than bot correcting my spell :-P Nov 11 17:10:38 / Nov 11 17:10:41 torpor, no! don't give up! Nov 11 17:10:52 josch: the regex triggered the bot :P Nov 11 17:11:02 Sup3rkiddo, what??? Nov 11 17:11:06 -_- Nov 11 17:11:08 josch: ye Nov 11 17:11:12 s/ye/puppy Nov 11 17:11:20 lol Nov 11 17:11:26 why isnt it working Nov 11 17:11:29 s/ye/pussy/ Nov 11 17:11:31 ~lart apt Nov 11 17:11:32 * apt takes out a cattle prod and gives sup3rkiddo a good jolt Nov 11 17:11:36 yeah right Nov 11 17:11:39 hrhr Nov 11 17:11:44 bots are fun Nov 11 17:11:53 Sup3rkiddo: You forgot the final slash Nov 11 17:11:59 ah ok..hehe Nov 11 17:12:08 how complex may the regexes be? Nov 11 17:12:19 anyway cya all, semesters start tomorrow..bye.. Nov 11 17:13:05 is it PCRE compliant? Nov 11 17:13:17 fucking godamnit! now the phone connector is busted too! SHIT! Nov 11 17:15:02 torpor: Busted in what way? Nov 11 17:15:13 The usb? Nov 11 17:15:22 the gta01 connectors (bblack part) just snapped Nov 11 17:15:22 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Connecting_GTA01Bv2_with_Debug_Board Nov 11 17:15:29 both on the debug board and on the gta01 Nov 11 17:15:35 super fragile piece of junk. wtf?! Nov 11 17:15:42 <--- pissed Nov 11 17:16:30 torpor: So the black parts came off? Nov 11 17:16:40 yup Nov 11 17:16:42 broke Nov 11 17:16:56 i used -zero- force, just touched it and it was like dust crumbling in my hands. Nov 11 17:17:03 torpor: not to piss you off more... but... Nov 11 17:17:10 so now i have to do this debrick with someone holding the connectors in mnaually .. Nov 11 17:17:17 ScaredyCat: what? Nov 11 17:17:22 it works. Nov 11 17:17:29 you got boot-sd working? Nov 11 17:17:30 great! Nov 11 17:17:33 I have openmoko + neo dual boot Nov 11 17:17:35 but.. Nov 11 17:17:37 great. Nov 11 17:17:41 eat that bot!! Nov 11 17:17:42 s///g Nov 11 17:17:43 I had to use ext3 Nov 11 17:17:48 ok Nov 11 17:18:03 whats the shrotest path tog etting uboot back in my neo so i can fix this problem, anyone know? Nov 11 17:18:18 like, how does this openocd work? Nov 11 17:18:22 it doesn't boot at all? Nov 11 17:18:32 man openocd was a pita Nov 11 17:18:33 no, nothing happens on power up at all ScaredyCat Nov 11 17:18:38 * josch has beaten up the channel bot Nov 11 17:19:42 what the hell does this mean: Info: configuration.c:50 configuration_output_handler(): Command ft2232_device_desc not found Nov 11 17:19:45 openocd? Nov 11 17:20:56 you have to modeprobe ftdi_something... Nov 11 17:21:08 damnit Nov 11 17:21:21 lemmie see if i can find what I used for reference Nov 11 17:22:39 i do remember the whole process was awful Nov 11 17:23:07 okay i'm officially defeated Nov 11 17:23:09 blows ass Nov 11 17:23:15 damn torpor :( Nov 11 17:23:19 do i have to have the debug board hooked up to USB as well as the neo? Nov 11 17:24:46 yes Nov 11 17:25:04 iirc otherwise there's no power Nov 11 17:25:22 ok Nov 11 17:27:04 you looked at this? : http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Openocd#Using_OpenOCD Nov 11 17:27:48 yeah Nov 11 17:28:04 i've got the neo hooked up, its got power (over its usb cable) and the debug board is on - two lights are on .. Nov 11 17:28:07 but openocd says: Nov 11 17:28:15 Info: configuration.c:50 configuration_output_handler(): Command ft2232_device_desc not found Nov 11 17:28:56 For later versions of OpenOCD you may need to specify the device description. For the v2 Debug board add this line to your openocd.cfg: Nov 11 17:28:56 ft2232_device_desc "Debug Board for Neo1973 A" Nov 11 17:29:02 done Nov 11 17:29:11 same result Nov 11 17:29:12 but does it match Nov 11 17:29:23 what do you mean? the string? Nov 11 17:29:50 I have ft2232_device_desc "Debug Board for Neo1973" Nov 11 17:29:55 ie no A Nov 11 17:29:57 hmm.. Nov 11 17:30:03 if the command isn't found the setting really doesn't matter Nov 11 17:30:20 good pont... Nov 11 17:30:20 do you have "interface ft2232" before the ft2232_device_desc? Nov 11 17:30:36 yup Nov 11 17:31:08 are you on windows? Nov 11 17:31:12 no linux Nov 11 17:31:13 Debug: jtag.c:1249 handle_interface_command(): 'interface' command didn't specify a valid interface Nov 11 17:31:20 ok, there you go Nov 11 17:31:22 torpor: http://pastebin.ca/769753 Nov 11 17:31:39 the ft2232_* commands are only available if the ft2232 interface was selected Nov 11 17:31:47 apparently it didn't see ft2232 as a valid interface Nov 11 17:31:49 hmm. Nov 11 17:31:51 did you compile it yourself? Nov 11 17:31:53 no Nov 11 17:32:00 this is from the .deb packages provided. Nov 11 17:32:04 ls Nov 11 17:32:14 people.openmoko.org/laforge/dpkg/ Nov 11 17:32:23 openocd_82-1_i386.deb Nov 11 17:32:37 hum, 82 is ancient :) Nov 11 17:33:16 could very well be from a time when they used wigglers only Nov 11 17:33:21 ok Nov 11 17:33:22 and no FT2232 based interface Nov 11 17:33:24 so what should i use? Nov 11 17:33:29 ScaredyCat: you did this on linux right? Nov 11 17:33:29 that's the version i have Nov 11 17:33:33 there are openocd packages in debian and ubuntu, afaik Nov 11 17:33:33 yes Nov 11 17:33:49 same Nov 11 17:33:53 I used the .deb too Nov 11 17:34:06 so what is this ft2232 interface? Nov 11 17:34:13 usbserial 34152 1 ftdi_sio Nov 11 17:34:16 is it that? Nov 11 17:34:22 ftdi_sio? Nov 11 17:34:24 FTDI FT2232 is the USB chip used on the Openmoko devboard Nov 11 17:34:28 ok Nov 11 17:34:30 it has two channels, that can be uart Nov 11 17:34:40 or JTAG, or some other synchronous serial protocol Nov 11 17:34:40 Bus 002 Device 005: ID 1457:5118 Nov 11 17:34:45 ^^^ thats the usb device Nov 11 17:35:03 the problem is that the OpenOCD code didn't identify "ft2232" as a valid interface Nov 11 17:35:21 so i should compile it myself (openocd)? Nov 11 17:35:22 which could be because a) there's something wrong with the .cfg, or b) because ft2232 wasn't selected at compile time Nov 11 17:35:51 i changed the name at some point, when i unified support for libftdi and ftdi's ftd2xx Nov 11 17:35:56 just don't remember when Nov 11 17:36:19 well, it shouldn't be too hard to compile it yourself Nov 11 17:36:23 grab the latest sources from SVN Nov 11 17:36:41 but ScaredyCat you used that .deb right? Nov 11 17:36:43 ah, just checked the svn log, the unified interface got introduced in 83 Nov 11 17:36:58 before that, the interfaces were ftdi2232 and ftd2xx Nov 11 17:37:06 but you really shouldn't be using that code anymore Nov 11 17:37:34 ya Nov 11 17:38:35 drath: i just wanna get uboot working again and then i'll never use openocd again! Nov 11 17:39:24 lol - that's *exactly* what I said Nov 11 17:40:17 well, people are actively using it, both for hobby purposes and in production environments, so it can't be that bad :-P Nov 11 17:40:28 argh, so annoying. Nov 11 17:41:20 the connectors are crappy on the neo... Nov 11 17:41:21 torpor: which distribution do you use? Nov 11 17:41:49 bbiab Nov 11 17:41:51 drath ubunty Nov 11 17:41:55 ubuntu Nov 11 17:42:26 edgy Nov 11 17:42:58 there are openocd packages in universe Nov 11 17:43:19 at least for gutsy Nov 11 17:43:49 ah, only gutsy and hardy Nov 11 17:45:11 what is openocd? Nov 11 17:45:21 ok i'll build from source - drath can you advise me what i have to enable in the configure line? Nov 11 17:45:46 edistar: a JTAG debug software for ARM cores Nov 11 17:45:55 drath: thx Nov 11 17:46:05 torpor: ok, fetch the source, run ./bootstrap Nov 11 17:46:10 i have that Nov 11 17:46:13 203 Nov 11 17:46:28 torpor: ./configure --enable-ftd2232_libftdi Nov 11 17:46:33 make sure you have libftdi-dev installed Nov 11 17:46:42 yup Nov 11 17:47:05 ah, --enable-ft2232_libftdi Nov 11 17:47:40 204 is an okay version? Nov 11 17:47:51 building now .. Nov 11 17:47:56 yeah Nov 11 17:49:06 spir@spir:~/neo$ openocd -v Nov 11 17:49:06 Info: openocd.c:82 main(): Open On-Chip Debugger (2006-08-01 12:00 CEST) Nov 11 17:49:06 openocd: invalid option -- v Nov 11 17:49:06 Info: configuration.c:50 configuration_output_handler(): Command ftdi2232_layout not found Nov 11 17:49:09 Info: configuration.c:50 configuration_output_handler(): Command ft2232_device_desc not found Nov 11 17:49:12 Error: ftdi2232.c:562 ftdi2232_init(): unable to open ftdi device: unable to claim usb device. Make sure ftdi_sio is unloaded! Nov 11 17:49:17 sorry for the paste - can't reach pastebin at the moment. Nov 11 17:49:32 that's still the old version Nov 11 17:49:49 2006-08-01 - 15 months... Nov 11 17:50:10 src/openocd -v Nov 11 17:50:12 Info: openocd.c:93 main(): Open On-Chip Debugger (2007-09-05 09:00 CEST) Nov 11 17:51:18 openocd doesn't take -v as an argument - "-d" selects maximum debug output, -dN set's debug level N Nov 11 17:51:37 yeah Nov 11 17:51:39 i see that ow Nov 11 17:51:42 okay here we go: Nov 11 17:52:26 http://rafb.net/p/pFz18A46.html Nov 11 17:52:28 checkit Nov 11 17:53:26 progress:http://rafb.net/p/zKVwnC63.html Nov 11 17:53:28 ft2232_device_desc "Debug Board for Neo1973 A" - remove the " A", but that not your only problem Nov 11 17:53:44 ah, ok, that's good Nov 11 17:53:55 did you power the neo? Nov 11 17:54:04 yes Nov 11 17:54:09 no way to tell if its on or not though Nov 11 17:54:12 no bootscreen/etc. Nov 11 17:54:25 checking cables now Nov 11 17:55:41 the problem is both clips on the debug board and on the neo are broken. Nov 11 17:56:45 i only know the openocd side of things - can't help you with the neo, sorry Nov 11 17:56:59 ok drath its cool so far anyway Nov 11 18:04:31 okay this part confuses me: Nov 11 18:04:31 Error: jtag.c:1253 jtag_examine_chain(): JTAG communication failure, check connection, JTAG interface, target power etc. Nov 11 18:04:40 could this be because of a wrong ftdi or something? Nov 11 18:08:20 is it just me or does JTAG just sound cool? :p, i have no idea how to use it, or what it is, but it sounds cool doesnt it? :/ Nov 11 18:12:54 godamnit Nov 11 18:12:55 no go Nov 11 18:21:46 godamit too Nov 11 18:24:37 honestly this is the crappiest thing i've ever seen. Nov 11 18:24:46 how were these connectors expected to be useful? Nov 11 18:25:23 flexd: I2C sounds cooler Nov 11 18:25:39 yeah Nov 11 18:25:41 sort of Nov 11 18:25:47 but Nov 11 18:26:13 if someone made the python module python-i2c_jtag Nov 11 18:26:16 it would be awsomeness? Nov 11 18:30:06 okay i am officially out of the openmoko project. Nov 11 18:30:16 with a bricked gta01, and a busted debug board that does not work, i cannot continue. Nov 11 18:31:05 :( Nov 11 18:31:45 indeed Nov 11 18:33:35 openmoko is not tied to gta01 Nov 11 18:34:54 yeah but i have no opennmoko capable devices. Nov 11 18:35:35 inf act for the first like 5 months none of the developers had an openmoko device Nov 11 18:35:47 oh wow that is some consolation. Nov 11 18:35:55 PC is an openmoko capable device Nov 11 18:36:04 can you get new connectors? Nov 11 18:39:12 torpor: what's wrong with your u-boot? Nov 11 18:40:16 Hi out there, are there examples on how to make transparent windows with gtk+ and openmoko ? Nov 11 18:40:25 hello Nov 11 18:40:52 balrog-kun: turn te gta01 on, nothing happens. zip. zilch .. nada.. Nov 11 18:41:14 torpor, that's bad news. what about the debug board? Nov 11 18:41:50 the debug board sucks ass Nov 11 18:42:05 torpor: the backlight doesn't react? Nov 11 18:42:11 nothing Nov 11 18:42:40 there's a high chance the battery is flat Nov 11 18:42:57 no balrog-kun i was burning a new u-boot. Nov 11 18:43:01 had been using the neo all day Nov 11 18:43:04 it was plugged into usb Nov 11 18:43:10 i bricked uboot Nov 11 18:43:14 got my debug board out. Nov 11 18:43:18 yeah, then probably battery is flat Nov 11 18:43:22 *BOTH* clips are busted on the neo and the debug board. Nov 11 18:43:59 balrog-kun: why would the battery be flat if its plugged into usb? Nov 11 18:44:52 torpor: because when you use it, it draws more power than the usb gives (apparently, as mine never works longer than some two hours when plugged in and PCF50606 inf ast-charge mode) Nov 11 18:45:20 torpor: i dont know why, but its definitely possible Nov 11 19:46:21 the makefile builds all the latest updates to openmoko doesnt it? Nov 11 19:47:00 if youdo make update first Nov 11 19:47:16 ok thanks Nov 11 19:51:16 "make flash-qemu-local" is trying to use $PATH instead of the directory its in, how do i set it to use . ? Nov 11 19:52:06 I have a build error if I run 'make qemu', can someone help me? I get: "Splash needs 'pngtopnm' and 'ppmtorgb3' make sure they're in $PATH Nov 11 19:53:03 edistar: thats the exact same thing i have Nov 11 19:53:13 bmk789: do you know why? Nov 11 19:53:19 not yet Nov 11 19:53:23 ok :) Nov 11 19:54:57 edistar: are you on ubuntu? Nov 11 19:55:13 bmk789: no, debian testing Nov 11 19:55:25 well install the netpbm package Nov 11 19:55:40 i would think debian testing would have it Nov 11 19:56:35 that should fix it Nov 11 19:57:46 it fixes that problem, but not the next :( Nov 11 19:58:28 edistar: what now? Nov 11 19:58:38 a long error message Nov 11 20:00:44 http://nopaste.org/p/aNZzxmX6Q Nov 11 20:02:14 did you run make openmoko-devel-image first? Nov 11 20:02:48 no, I did what it said on the wiki Nov 11 20:02:56 well.. maybe I ran that first.. would it be bad? Nov 11 20:03:38 well you need to run openmoko-devel-image before the flash-qemu-local Nov 11 20:04:13 I'm just running make qemu, the automatic thing that it said in the wiki Nov 11 20:04:33 heh, so, after all that talk about nokias, I wake up and what's on the mailing list? someone talking about nokias :) Nov 11 20:05:06 hehe ;) Nov 11 20:05:11 doc|home: decided yet? Nov 11 20:05:25 edistar: did you already "make setup"? Nov 11 20:05:55 bmk789: yes Nov 11 20:06:12 but then I saw that make qemu would do everything automatically, so I just did make qemu Nov 11 20:07:11 but now I'm make'ing openmoko-devel-image Nov 11 20:10:18 bmk789: why wouldn't 'make qemu' work? Nov 11 20:10:43 idk im really new to this Nov 11 20:10:59 bmk789: ok Nov 11 20:11:10 edistar: I want one :( Nov 11 20:11:18 doc|home: no wonder, I want one too! Nov 11 20:11:24 just for coolness :) Nov 11 20:12:18 yeah ;P I have a 770 though, so it wouldn't be feasible for me to get one Nov 11 20:12:37 if I get a gta-02 anyway with gps Nov 11 20:12:40 fair enough :) Nov 11 20:12:46 yeah, if I had a gta02 I'd be happy :) Nov 11 20:13:07 doc|home: it will come in january, I am an optimist Nov 11 20:13:11 hehe Nov 11 20:13:21 doc|home: it will come in january, I am an optimist Nov 11 20:13:27 sry Nov 11 20:13:29 say it three times Nov 11 20:13:36 then it'll definitely happen Nov 11 20:13:37 doc|home: it will come in january, I am an optimist Nov 11 20:13:39 ;) Nov 11 20:13:40 hehehe Nov 11 20:13:47 now it will :) Nov 11 20:13:50 has anyone seen this error? http://pastebin.com/m5d2507fa Nov 11 20:14:45 bmk no Nov 11 20:14:57 did you try qemu-neo from svn? Nov 11 20:15:15 this is with the makefile, with everything updated Nov 11 20:15:30 havent tried anything else Nov 11 20:15:35 had that yesterday Nov 11 20:15:39 hm okay Nov 11 20:16:04 bmk789: don't know why :* Nov 11 20:16:06 :( Nov 11 20:17:54 should i try svn? Nov 11 20:17:55 laptop has reached 110 degrees celcius, I should have thought twice about starting to compile.. Nov 11 20:19:01 boil water with it Nov 11 20:21:15 some tea :) Nov 11 20:21:30 bmk789 you can try svn but you have to fix an error for omap Nov 11 20:21:42 there is one file missing from upstream Nov 11 20:23:23 gaah Nov 11 20:24:39 a don't-do-this-on-a-phone-ist: http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/08/technology/personaltech/08pogue.html?_r=2&oref=slogin&oref=slogin Nov 11 20:25:27 so does the gta01 have tri-band without 850mhz but the gta02 will have quad-band? Nov 11 20:26:08 bmk789: no, it will not have quad Nov 11 20:26:28 noooooooooo Nov 11 20:27:03 it will though maybe have 850/1800/1900 if fic manages to design a board quickly Nov 11 20:27:25 that would be good Nov 11 20:27:52 bmk789_: exactly, that was what the 3 day rant on the mailinglist was about too Nov 11 20:28:07 ah i see Nov 11 20:28:52 half my state is 850 but im right on the line so having that 850 band would be very comforting Nov 11 20:29:53 yes Nov 11 20:30:11 well, I only need 900 :) Nov 11 20:31:33 this is because theres no open quad band chipsets i assume? Nov 11 20:32:04 bmk789_: no, the gsm chip supports quad, but their board doesn't Nov 11 20:32:05 no, it's not because of that Nov 11 20:32:07 circuit Nov 11 20:33:15 bmk789_: don't you get the mailinglists? Nov 11 20:33:20 so the mainboard makes it impossible to use quad band, it couldnt be hacked or anything Nov 11 20:33:28 i just subscribed yesterday Nov 11 20:33:38 and i havent seen any archives Nov 11 20:33:39 bmk789_: no, the chip supports is Nov 11 20:33:40 it Nov 11 20:33:49 bmk789_: ok Nov 11 20:34:30 in a way it's FICs fault, they could have designed it for + 850 support Nov 11 20:34:33 bmk789_: the current board layout makes it possible to use 3 out of 4 bands, with those bands being set in stone by filters that are soldered on Nov 11 20:35:03 ah Nov 11 20:35:18 edistar: it's nobody's *fault*. It's just something that happens... like missing a ';' off the end of your source code when compiling. Eventuall you find out Nov 11 20:35:44 even if it's not as soon as you would have liked to have picked the issue up Nov 11 20:36:43 wel.. whos fault it was is difficult to find our, even for someone inside ;) .. and not helping. it happened and we need to find a way to handle it. and first was stating the facts as soon as they got clear while researching the problem Nov 11 20:37:00 hey Michael Nov 11 20:37:33 well... I hope they fix it cause I want to have us people helping ;) Nov 11 20:38:31 edistar we are currently evaluating if a us-triband option or redesigning to quad is more feasible. Nov 11 20:38:50 edistar: the beauty of this project is there is no "they", there is only "us", all, together, collectively. Nov 11 20:39:10 "we" want a neo Nov 11 20:39:12 NOW! Nov 11 20:39:14 ;) Nov 11 20:40:28 yes Nov 11 20:41:06 lol Nov 11 20:41:09 roh: but the version now will be released soon, europe people aren't kept waiting alltough it would work? Nov 11 20:42:46 i don't know yet.. first we need to make sure all parts work. Nov 11 20:44:05 sladen: erm, it sounds to me like it's someone's fault. I mean, who thinks "yep, 3 filters, that's enough!" :/ Nov 11 20:44:38 roh: i bricked my gta01 today. my debug board doesn't work (connectors are busted). is there someone i can send my neo to, to get it debricked? i really want to get my app released in the next few weeks, so i'm quite desperate about it .. Nov 11 20:44:46 someone probably who isn't designing a phone for the US market Nov 11 20:45:04 it's probably legacy... Nov 11 20:45:40 now, that it carried over to gta02 unnoticed was the bigger blunder Nov 11 20:46:21 there's two solutions, (a) "Sue Sue Sue Sue, it MUST be *somebody's* fault". Or the more constructive (b) "It happened, lets tell people, and collectively work out how t fix it for the next hardware rev". I'll leave you to guess which will deliver the bug fix faster Nov 11 20:46:40 mjr: ...shows the number of US-based Neo users ;-) Nov 11 20:46:42 indeed Nov 11 20:46:56 sladen: suing? Nov 11 20:46:58 ;) Nov 11 20:47:25 sladen, there were some complaints around here, though, and the 3G sim issue probably masked the thing also Nov 11 20:47:49 so, is there a current road map for the board wrt this? I mean, when would we be looking at a proper quad band board? Nov 11 20:48:02 doc|home, read roh's lips Nov 11 20:48:23 ah, ok, sorry, hadn't seen that Nov 11 20:49:32 in the us, it would be sue worthy Nov 11 20:49:36 misrepresentation of product Nov 11 20:49:49 anrp: come on... Nov 11 20:49:51 who cares as long as it gets sorted out. Nov 11 20:49:58 edistar: he's right Nov 11 20:50:07 it was advertised as a quad band phone :/ Nov 11 20:50:10 but it's rediculous Nov 11 20:50:11 that'd be comic if people had also got them through customs as "non-functioning prototype" Nov 11 20:52:59 its not really a prototype, hardware wise Nov 11 20:53:07 it was quite clear that gta01 was for developers though, i don't think a suit would have a case if at some points you couldn't even dial a phone number... Nov 11 20:53:11 not the buyable rev, at least Nov 11 20:53:35 that doesn't really matter .. Nov 11 20:53:47 the only obvious out i can think of is if it was sold as-is Nov 11 20:53:51 wtf with the suing talk? Return the damn thing. Nov 11 20:53:54 i don't remember if it was Nov 11 20:53:58 for real lol Nov 11 20:54:13 its a gta01, how many would some1 have to buy to justify the cost of a lawsuit Nov 11 20:54:13 i don't think anyone intends to Nov 11 20:54:16 just commenting on the validity Nov 11 20:54:49 altho this does kind of suck... might delay my christmas present :( Nov 11 20:55:50 you couldn't get any damages though since it was sold as development hardware and it would be impossible to suffer harm from the lack of 850, fic's liability would probably be limited to the price of the phone Nov 11 20:56:08 ... just thinking out loud though Nov 11 20:56:16 this is more a comment on the us legal system i guess ~_~ Nov 11 20:56:30 let's not go there :] Nov 11 20:58:03 exactly... Nov 11 21:00:20 I am looking forward to my device since about 1 year now ;) Nov 11 21:00:59 s/since/for Nov 11 21:01:21 well.. i dunno about the legal yadda yada, especially not in the us, but i have a glimpse of a idea how this happend at all. Nov 11 21:02:42 roh: tell Nov 11 21:03:32 its quite easy.. the gsm part was done already when the most people started the project. we knew it passes some of the hardest tests (not only fcc) board-wise so it was a good call to build on that. since there was no spec the advertising was propably constructed by looking at the first page of the manual which says quadband.. what got lost is a few hundred pages away and its 'only when used in this and that configuration. Nov 11 21:04:00 also mjr is probably right and the 3g-issue masked this Nov 11 21:04:22 yeah, but did no one on the hardware side look at the site and think "er, this isn't right"? :| Nov 11 21:04:48 the 3g-issue is actually a regression in the ti stuff, which now finally got fixed. we just have to find a reasonable way to get the firmware flashed. (well.. we have a tool , but we cannot distribute it since its ti's tool) Nov 11 21:04:49 doc|home: thats a thing that can't be changed.. Nov 11 21:06:11 doc|home: doc|home: it is a quad chip Nov 11 21:06:14 isn't it? Nov 11 21:06:21 yep Nov 11 21:06:27 just the board's not laid out correctly Nov 11 21:06:39 is it that hard to change the board? Nov 11 21:06:48 doc|home a gsm phone is really complex and openmoko is a small and new company. most things happen in small teams and as i said the gsm was inherited, so nobody questioned the gsm hard enough to take the docs from ti and the schems to compare line by line Nov 11 21:07:13 well... luckily someone noticed before the gta-02's where shipped! Nov 11 21:07:22 edistar: it'd have to go back to redesign, then be changed, then get fcc'd Nov 11 21:07:28 edistar the baseband arm/dsp combo can do quad. it needs a fitting mux and 4 filters for that. Nov 11 21:07:28 doc|home: oh Nov 11 21:07:48 edistar what we have is the standard triband mux and 3 filters. Nov 11 21:07:53 roh: ok Nov 11 21:08:43 I wan't a triband phone, I don't care about the fourth frequency.. so I hope the triband phone will be shipped anyway Nov 11 21:09:34 me too, I think it should work here Nov 11 21:09:35 so now we are evaluating fitting 850mhz instead of 900mhz filters and do a recalibration. if that works we could build gta02-eu and gta02-us without board changes and would have nearly 100% gurantee to pass fcc immediately in both variants Nov 11 21:09:55 cool, that would be a good solution for the beginnin Nov 11 21:09:56 g Nov 11 21:09:56 roh: ooh, that's very cunning. Nov 11 21:10:06 but if we do that or redesign to real quad is not my call and we will see after testing a triband-us variant. Nov 11 21:10:13 just a few discretes different then? Nov 11 21:10:13 roh: will the gta02-us work at all in europe? I'm in canada but Irish so will be going back every once in a while :) Nov 11 21:10:16 would that be cheaper than changing to a full quad model that coudl be shipped anywhere? Nov 11 21:10:54 doc|home, a gta02-us would work similarly in the europe as the current model in the US Nov 11 21:11:00 doc|home well.. without 900mhz it depends on your carrier. wouldnt want that in germany ;) (900mhz is working better here indoors) Nov 11 21:11:12 but there's still the two other freqs Nov 11 21:11:31 larger cities in many places afaik have 1800 coverage Nov 11 21:11:33 bah, 850less works for me :) Nov 11 21:11:43 doc|home: i believe the irish networks use 900 and 1900 Nov 11 21:11:52 doc|home, indeed, I'm also lucky enough not to care about 850 Nov 11 21:12:06 bmk789_ from my view it looks like a lot less engineering work, so we would save time, a lot Nov 11 21:12:12 doc|home: they're certainly not 900-only Nov 11 21:12:18 oh, hey cjb, I think I recognise you vaguely from ilug irc Nov 11 21:12:29 cjb_ie ireland has 1900? i though thats also us-only (or nearly) Nov 11 21:12:30 (you probably don't know me) Nov 11 21:12:39 roh: i may be confusing 1800 and 1900. Nov 11 21:12:40 * ebel is glad he has 'ireland' and 'irish' on his xchat highlight list Nov 11 21:12:46 roh, yeah, I'd say you should just get it out easy and fast and concentrate on the software Nov 11 21:12:52 ebel: hehe Nov 11 21:13:09 most of europe is 900/1800. 1900 was made for the us since 1800 was already blocked there. then came 850 due to 900 also blocked. Nov 11 21:13:13 * cjb_ie whois'es ebel and wonders why he's not on ilug irc and/or #ubuntu-ie Nov 11 21:13:18 cjb_ie: in either case, there'd be tri band anyway Nov 11 21:13:46 is there a place to see coverage maps of different frequencies? Nov 11 21:13:50 wtf with the suing talk? Return the damn thing. Nov 11 21:13:53 doc|home: so, yeah, one could view the -us or -eu suffix as an optimisation rather than an exclusion Nov 11 21:13:59 cjb_ie: yep Nov 11 21:14:08 Yep, except FIC/openmoko doesn't have that option just yet. Nov 11 21:14:11 and which bands does china use? Nov 11 21:14:13 cjb_ie, I'm rarely on ilug IRC. Didn't know about #ubuntu-ie Nov 11 21:15:45 roh: so when would you say the gta-02 might be ready? Nov 11 21:16:00 * flexd roars at the topic Nov 11 21:16:32 * mwester-laptop throws a zebra at flexd Nov 11 21:16:39 * flexd eats it Nov 11 21:17:03 the openmoko chaps should have a status page on openmoko.org/status where they post their thoughts about the release every day Nov 11 21:17:09 * cjb_ie wonders if flexd is a lion or a tiger Nov 11 21:17:26 * flexd eats cjb_ie's leg Nov 11 21:18:18 flexd: ENOTAGIRAFFE Nov 11 21:18:40 * flexd SIGFAULTS Nov 11 21:19:01 damn you cjb_ie damn you! :( Nov 11 21:20:03 flexd: hey, you started it Nov 11 21:20:13 this channel is fun :P Nov 11 21:20:29 edistar: planet.openmoko.org Nov 11 21:20:37 although not everyone says styff Nov 11 21:20:39 *stuff Nov 11 21:20:43 edistar i dunno. gta02 depends on still to many things Nov 11 21:20:46 doc|home: and not enough for me :P Nov 11 21:21:00 edistar but be assured we will tell as soon as we know more. currently its just guessing Nov 11 21:21:13 ok :) Nov 11 21:21:19 edistar: yeah :) Nov 11 21:21:21 roh: then please guess :P Nov 11 21:21:46 edistar: the guess is december Nov 11 21:21:48 edistar: you've read what roh said here on irc the last hour or so? Nov 11 21:22:29 * doc|home wonders how long it'd take to make a quadband board/fcc/release if they went that route Nov 11 21:23:01 depending how cramped the board is already, even just the layout could take a while Nov 11 21:23:10 then there's a couple of weeks to get boards made Nov 11 21:23:16 and maybe a week or two to get them stuffed Nov 11 21:23:19 LarstiQ: yes Nov 11 21:23:36 and that's if one is paying $lots to have things made and stuffed quickly Nov 11 21:23:45 multilayer PCBs ain't cheap, especially in a hurry Nov 11 21:23:46 yeah :/ Nov 11 21:24:26 8 layer double eurocard in a week with controlled impedance can cost around 300 eur apiece in small quantities Nov 11 21:24:49 (small quantities being 5-10 ish) Nov 11 21:24:52 assembly is $$ if you get it done outside .. and if you do it inside, the failure rate can be ~_~ Nov 11 21:25:17 well, the setup is the $$ish part Nov 11 21:25:27 true Nov 11 21:25:30 if you can reuse most of the setup from the previous version of the board, that helps a lot Nov 11 21:25:45 but then you're relying on your board stuffers being very very good with diff Nov 11 21:26:10 Folks, reality is that the GTA02-Euro will be out, and *if* the GTA02-US is real, it will follow in 3 months at the soonest. Possibly longer if the FCC app takes time. So how many of the US developers/contributors on the project will stick around? Or will this become "euromoko" instead of "openmoko"? Nov 11 21:26:16 or you get the classical "oops" Nov 11 21:26:18 ;o Nov 11 21:26:40 and then the blame game starts! Nov 11 21:26:43 Fabrication time is detail stuff, and assumes commitment by FIC/openmoko as well as commitment by the market. Nov 11 21:26:48 that's always fun to watch... not so fun to play Nov 11 21:26:53 Right now, neither is assured. Nov 11 21:27:23 anrp: when i was doing complex board layouts i had the luxury of being on site with the board stuffers when they were doing setup, that saved a lot of cockups Nov 11 21:30:19 well, good luck then! Nov 11 21:30:30 And regarding the "fault" thing discussed earlier -- the issue is not so much that people want someone to blame, it is that people want to be assured that whatever permitted such a horrible error to occur and linger so long won't happen again. So, openmoko: where's the public statement on what happened, and why it won't happen again? Nov 11 21:31:16 * mwester-laptop mutters something about FIC/Openmoko needing someone who's studied business instead of just technology... Nov 11 21:32:19 well, I think there are some Nov 11 21:33:13 mwester-laptop well.. if we would listen to that guys all day you all would know nothing and all development would happend behind closed doors.. we would not want that either, do we? ;) Nov 11 21:33:22 you can never say if something like this will happen again.. Nov 11 21:33:46 roh: also you'd never get finished with anything Nov 11 21:33:50 closedmoko? :p Nov 11 21:33:50 exactly. nad every real developer who is honest will second that. Nov 11 21:34:28 edistar i meant the 'you can never say if something like this will happen again..' Nov 11 21:34:40 yes Nov 11 21:34:58 edistar openmoko would not be open. and what would be bad and not helping building what we all want i think Nov 11 21:35:14 well, open hardware may have helped prevent this, but that's a whole other discussion :) Nov 11 21:35:42 doc|home when you take a peek inside the gsm market you know thats not possible at all. Nov 11 21:35:47 I know :/ Nov 11 21:36:39 either the gsm schems stay closed or there is no phone, so i'd rather ignore that blackbox. atleast it has its own cpu and we need no binaries for the serial we dont have the source to Nov 11 21:36:40 Who said anything about open hardware? Nov 11 21:36:45 well.. as long as I have a device sometime in spring (up to march/april) I will certainly buy one Nov 11 21:36:46 I certainly didn't. Nov 11 21:37:13 edistar thats quite sure. propably even earlier. Nov 11 21:37:18 ok :) Nov 11 21:38:06 can't wait to show a friend of mine with his iphone that my phone has a higher res and runs linux, i.e. having a much higher potential :) Nov 11 21:38:17 mwester-laptop: came from development behind closed doors, but as I said, a whole other discussion Nov 11 21:39:08 doc|home: I don't understand what you're trying to say. I'm just saying that FIC/Openmoko has obligations to meet, and that they have failed to do so. Nov 11 21:40:02 If they wish to retain credibility beyond a cluster of openmoko fanboys, they must do what every other company is required to do: explain how such a misrepresentation won't happen again. Nov 11 21:40:07 That's all. Nov 11 21:40:10 It's so very simple. Nov 11 21:40:24 I have a question: Does the GTA01 and the GTA02 have the same gsm chip? Nov 11 21:40:37 unique, yes Nov 11 21:40:38 Yes, unfortunately Nov 11 21:41:00 why unfortunately? Nov 11 21:41:14 ok, I was just wondering, because in the community use it is only talked about the GTA01 Nov 11 21:41:46 edistar: TI is as secretive as broadcom, and has as many lawyers. Nov 11 21:42:08 okey.. not nice Nov 11 21:42:26 unique: the community only has the gta-01.. Nov 11 21:43:31 @edistar, I know that, I just thought that because they only mentioned the GTA01 the GTA02 maybe has a different gsm chip Nov 11 21:43:55 unique: always better to ask :) Nov 11 21:44:07 unique, where are you reading about the GSM chip from? Nov 11 21:44:32 edistar: that's what this channel is for, I guess... Nov 11 21:45:00 unique: exactly :) Nov 11 21:45:03 Tieku: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Community_Updates Nov 11 21:48:06 edistar: as I'm not living in the US I could say I don't care about the gsm problems, but y'know when they say quadband it would be nice to have it, but however I'll buy a GTA02 when it is out Nov 11 21:48:33 unique: where do you come from? Nov 11 21:48:42 germany Nov 11 21:48:59 me too Nov 11 21:49:06 well, border to NL Nov 11 21:49:30 mwester-laptop: the more I think of it, the more it seems that this is a fanboy or atleast limited availability platform. I doubt FIC cares that much at this point if the US release is (and will be) delayed Nov 11 21:49:39 ensche.de? Nov 11 21:49:58 ferric: are you serious? or course fic cares Nov 11 21:50:16 edistar: why's that? Nov 11 21:50:17 edistar: nice I live at the moment quite in the middle of germany Nov 11 21:51:15 cheese Nov 11 21:51:30 ferric: they want to make money and they can sell quite a lot of devices in the US Nov 11 21:51:51 ferric: I agree with you. I think that FIC/Openmoko has a split personality, with a business side that just wants to pay the bills, and another side that values the community and open-source. These goals conflict. Nov 11 21:52:03 We (the community) get caught in the "cross-fire" Nov 11 21:52:49 mwester-laptop: didn't you read roh's comments? he explained what and how it happened... Nov 11 21:53:07 that would explain 01 not 02 Nov 11 21:53:08 I laid out my reasoning for why it's not likely that FIC/Openmoko would release the gllin GPS driver, and it made certain openmoko people angry. But they couldn't refute any of the logic, and now we still don't have the driver. Nov 11 21:53:57 eonj: Roh has said nothing about what they have done to fix the communications issues, but I would expect such a statement to come from Sean or his level Nov 11 21:54:05 most people use the muffin driver instead ;) Nov 11 21:54:32 muffin? Nov 11 21:54:37 you heard about it on the mailing list and irc channel, what more do you need? Nov 11 21:55:29 mwester-laptop please take note that what we communicate to you may be something in a different language than makes sense on a list like announce. Nov 11 21:55:34 eonj: The same I would expect from any company with which I do business. An official statement describing the problem, the remedies available, and a guarantee of a timeline for same. Nov 11 21:55:46 i see Nov 11 21:55:48 you seem to be technically qualified, but there a loads of people who are not and get confused by too much detail. Nov 11 21:56:05 roh: I'll take any language. Nov 11 21:56:05 thats why we place the details somethere else than generic foo Nov 11 21:56:19 im sort of confused, what's being argued about now? :/ Nov 11 21:56:27 I have emails in about this issue to openmoko.com, with nothing yet. Nov 11 21:56:28 roh: although I would like some more details too, and if I get confused I'd just ask publicly and someone else will answer me Nov 11 21:58:55 edistar well.. just ask me ;) i will at least tell you if i know or who could. Nov 11 21:59:13 roh: yes, you do answer, luckily, thanks :) Nov 11 21:59:31 Regardless, IMO the release of the GPS driver, and/or the release of the GSM firmware fix, in the next week, would go a long way to assuring people that the 850 issue won't also end up waiting forever. Nov 11 22:00:24 mwester-laptop ive read multiple messages that we are still kicking some people about the gps issue, and ive also not let go of it. Nov 11 22:03:12 I know, I also have read this. But at some point results are required. I congratulate people who work hard on a problem for trying hard, but at some point the problem must be solved. Nov 11 22:03:47 mwester-laptop: some things just take time? legal issues or so, if the openmoko people say their doing their best, why not believe them? Nov 11 22:04:27 edistar: because at some point, when there are multiple open issues that have waited for months and months, a certain amount of skepticism is warranted. Nov 11 22:04:40 mwester-laptop: maybe, but there were updates.. Nov 11 22:04:47 mwester-laptop: do you have a gta-01? Nov 11 22:04:51 updates, but no results. Nov 11 22:04:56 edistar: yes. Nov 11 22:05:26 no surprise then that you want a driver.. if I were in the same position I might get a bit grumpy aswel Nov 11 22:05:35 well.. i need to leave you alone now.. my food needs attention Nov 11 22:06:00 Our football team is trying their best, and we get updates weekly from the coach and players. But that doesn't change the fact that they have not been able to accomplish their goals. Why is FIC/Openmoko any different? Nov 11 22:06:08 edistar: you seem to be quite well informed about the OpenMoko, so reading the community update makes me wonder a little bit. It wont be possible to use opengl es right from the start altought the 3d chip provides 3d acceleration? Nov 11 22:06:29 unique: no, their not working on an opengl driver Nov 11 22:07:00 edistar: I want only what FIC/Openmoko committed that they would deliver: a phone that was designed to be quadband, a driver for the GPS, and a fix for the GSM firmware. All other engineering bugs and flaws are as they are, and FIC has not committed to fixing those. Nov 11 22:07:04 unique: raster said something about the chip only supporting 512x512 pixel opengl acceleration Nov 11 22:07:12 mwester-laptop: yes, I understand Nov 11 22:07:48 unique: so obviously you'd have to halve the resolution in order to efficiently use the chip Nov 11 22:08:00 edistar, that's workaroundable, though of course it'd be a lot of work too Nov 11 22:08:00 well... Nov 11 22:08:01 edistar: 512x512 is better than nothing Nov 11 22:08:34 unique: how will you fit it on the screen? at least rasterman decided that 2d accel is more important Nov 11 22:08:41 edistar: I was very happy when I first heard about 3d hardware acceleration, so I guess I could live with 512x512 Nov 11 22:08:42 Is it 512*512 or can it do 480*546? Nov 11 22:08:43 which it is, cause that's the common usage Nov 11 22:08:54 unique: it will come sometime I think Nov 11 22:08:56 anyway, the 2d _is_ more important Nov 11 22:09:32 93 pixels is a reasonable header/footer. Nov 11 22:09:45 unique: you want compiz_fusion on the neo? Nov 11 22:09:48 yes 2d is important, but if you have a 3d chip in it, it would be nice to "use" it, but without a driver I think it could be a little difficult ;) Nov 11 22:09:54 SpeedEvil: its 512x512 Nov 11 22:09:55 SpeedEvil, he said 512x512 so I'd take that as the value... Nov 11 22:10:12 that's the max size of a rendering buffer Nov 11 22:10:13 edistar: no, not yet ;) Nov 11 22:10:19 I could helpt to write a driver, but without any informations about the chip it#s impossible Nov 11 22:10:32 unique: altough that would be really cool :P Nov 11 22:10:46 with the accelerometers you could automatically turn the cube.. Nov 11 22:11:19 edistar: yes that would be really awesome Nov 11 22:11:23 It's a pity in a way that custom chips are so damn expensive. Nov 11 22:11:29 the accelerometers are only a poor replacement for joypad keys :P Nov 11 22:11:57 A ASIC with mp3/mpg/avi/limited 2d accel would be nice Nov 11 22:12:02 well, there are so few phones with VGA, it was to be expected that this chip doesn't fully support VGA Nov 11 22:12:32 the "data sheet" says it supports VGA Nov 11 22:12:41 or better the page Nov 11 22:13:08 guys I have to go, have a nice day / night / morning wherever you are Nov 11 22:13:19 oc2k1__, and it's true Nov 11 22:13:42 just not the _whole_ truth Nov 11 22:13:54 unique: good night Nov 11 22:26:48 i've bricked my gta01 Nov 11 22:27:02 and the gta02 looks like its going to be bollocks. Nov 11 22:27:04 what to do. Nov 11 22:27:09 i know: i'll buy an iphone!!!!! Nov 11 22:27:40 thats a man in a bad mood Nov 11 22:27:49 he just missed a great bashing ;) Nov 11 22:29:07 why the doesn't he un-brick it Nov 11 22:29:12 *the hell Nov 11 22:29:20 he had problems with that as well Nov 11 22:29:20 CoreDump: his debug board is bricked too ;0 Nov 11 22:29:41 I had to do it once. Worked OOTB by following the available documentation Nov 11 22:29:42 CoreDump: his FPC connectors broke both GTA01 and debug board ends Nov 11 22:30:11 i hear good things about the iphone D; Nov 11 22:30:14 closed things, but good things Nov 11 22:30:16 XorA|gone: sigh Nov 11 22:30:24 anrp: e.g.? Nov 11 22:30:52 ... Nov 11 22:30:59 well, the hype, for one :P Nov 11 22:31:03 wasn't the JTAG port available via solder pads as well? Nov 11 22:31:06 thats true Nov 11 22:31:30 CoreDump: you can build your own JTAG port, costs $10 and works quite well Nov 11 22:32:24 I really try to avoid JTAG whenever humanly possible ;) Nov 11 22:33:27 me too, not very userfriendly Nov 11 22:33:36 anrp: the only thing I really liked was the browsing Nov 11 22:34:02 zooming etc. Nov 11 22:35:30 this youtube video of the neo1973 webbrowser. does it play for anyone else? Nov 11 22:35:39 i tried yesterday with no luck then either.... Nov 11 22:35:49 http://youtube.com/watch?v=btY2SFVrOsc Nov 11 22:35:55 * Tieku remembered the link Nov 11 22:36:15 yeah it loads fine Nov 11 22:36:22 err.... Nov 11 22:36:24 why me... Nov 11 22:36:27 :P Nov 11 22:36:30 every other video plays Nov 11 22:37:24 Tieku: Works fine for me Nov 11 22:37:49 Won't even work in a differnet browser. very strange. but thanks for letting me know :) Nov 11 22:38:01 i take that back - opera has it loading very slowly... Nov 11 22:38:03 :D Nov 11 22:39:56 jtag is "... not very userfriendly" ? Nov 11 22:40:03 * anrp nominates for understatement of the year Nov 11 22:40:12 hehe Nov 11 22:40:15 :P Nov 11 22:57:36 nothing going on here.. Nov 11 23:00:44 ......................... Nov 11 23:01:52 it's monday here :( Nov 11 23:02:19 school in 8 hours... Nov 11 23:03:56 edistar, school in 6 for me Nov 11 23:04:04 not nice, is it Nov 11 23:04:38 cb22: math, history and dutch, really looking forward :( Nov 11 23:14:07 i'm writing a maths exam today :/ Nov 11 23:15:24 cb22: Writing it or just answering the questions? Nov 11 23:15:27 cb22: good luck then Nov 11 23:16:34 make openmoko-devel-image is telling me database or disk is full, but my disk is only 19% full and has 160gb, anyone have the same problem? Nov 11 23:17:12 Has there been much progress on the GPS/Maps front? I think that seems like the most non-FOSS friendly area Nov 11 23:17:28 rbs-tito_: check the navit project Nov 11 23:17:58 :O HOw did I miss this? Nov 11 23:18:37 Lacking a 3D interface mind Nov 11 23:18:46 yes Nov 11 23:19:33 I nearly threw up the other day, my mate bought an iPhone :| Nov 11 23:20:15 rbs-tito_: well.. maybe there will be an iphonelinux soon :P Nov 11 23:20:42 i doubt it Nov 11 23:20:53 and even if there is Nov 11 23:21:01 large portions of the iphone will not be usable Nov 11 23:21:01 edistar: Or an OpenMoko port :D But he wouldn't use it, he's become a Mac fanboy since he bought a crappy macbook Nov 11 23:21:02 eg Nov 11 23:21:09 the gfx chip is an imagination chip Nov 11 23:21:12 no specs Nov 11 23:21:36 I like macbooks, when they run debian Nov 11 23:21:38 good luck getting graphics to work well with a chip without full specs Nov 11 23:21:39 :) Nov 11 23:22:01 raster: You would also have to ask why someone would pay such magnitude of cash for a load of closed hardware only to install Linux on it Nov 11 23:22:10 thats true Nov 11 23:22:22 allthough a multitouch screen would tempt me Nov 11 23:22:24 not to mention gsm Nov 11 23:22:26 Same for macbooks, OS X is the only reason anyone would want to buy one Nov 11 23:22:30 rbs-tito_: indeed Nov 11 23:22:37 hasn't someone gotten multitouch on OM? Nov 11 23:22:46 doc|home: the screen doesn't support it Nov 11 23:22:47 or is it the neo that's the limiting factor? Nov 11 23:22:49 doc|home: The neo doesn't support it Nov 11 23:22:49 ah, ok Nov 11 23:22:50 edistar: more problems. no specs on how to drive the touchscreen and multitouch Nov 11 23:22:55 raster: if imagination chips actually worked like you imagined it, it would be kinda awsome huh? Nov 11 23:23:03 :D Nov 11 23:23:05 flexd: hehe Nov 11 23:23:08 raster: I heard that someone had added multitouch to the xserver Nov 11 23:23:25 edistar: multipoint input devices yes Nov 11 23:23:26 I'm sure it would be fun to build an openmoko with a geforce 8800GTX Nov 11 23:23:39 it's always been technically possible with xinput anyway Nov 11 23:23:49 so extra tocuhes can be done via extra xinput devices Nov 11 23:23:53 raster: ok, well, I'm not into the details that much Nov 11 23:23:55 the problem is you have no DRIVER Nov 11 23:24:03 edistar: the problem is in the details Nov 11 23:24:28 lol, are we going to be worrying about things like this when we are cruising around with our GTA02 Neos? Nov 11 23:24:39 raster: for me the problem is school :P otherwise I'd know so much more about linux and especially about graphical programming :) Nov 11 23:24:40 Or will it work out of the box like the (shudder) iphone? Nov 11 23:25:09 edistar: I'm doing my a-levels in the UK. I have to learn Visual Basic :| Nov 11 23:25:22 rbs-tito_: I Nov 11 23:25:29 rbs-tito_: I need to learn java Nov 11 23:25:49 edistar: That wouldn't be half as bad as VB. My language of choice is Ruby Nov 11 23:25:51 but some crappy class some teacher wrote and everything is in german, the whole graphical toolkit Nov 11 23:26:01 rough Nov 11 23:26:03 rbs-tito_: mine is C and python, depends on what is needed Nov 11 23:26:25 I used to use c++, but for what I do ruby is fine Nov 11 23:26:38 rbs-tito_: it's horrible to write a mixture of german and english, german for the graphical bit and english for the framework.. Nov 11 23:27:04 Will FIC be selling the Neos? Or is there a company called OpenMoko? Nov 11 23:27:19 rbs-tito_: I have Ruby for OpenMoko :) available for all :) Nov 11 23:27:24 edistar: It's horrible to write VB and mae Access databases Nov 11 23:27:33 rbs-tito_: never tried VB :) Nov 11 23:27:36 Kero: :O Nov 11 23:27:42 Kero: Done anything cool with it? Nov 11 23:27:48 basic comes from hell.... Nov 11 23:28:15 rbs-tito_: wrote one virus for it just for fun and it actually produced a bluescreen at my girlfriends pc :P I sent it to her and didn't tell her what it was... she didn't talk to me for half a day :P Nov 11 23:28:23 rbs-tito_: there is a company called openmoko. Nov 11 23:28:41 rbs-tito_: not yet, been busy travelling. I seem to have a slightly less busy two weeks ahead, tho Nov 11 23:28:41 edistar: For what? Windows or VB? Nov 11 23:29:01 rbs-tito_: wrote it in VB Nov 11 23:29:22 http://chmeee.dyndns.org/om/ruby/feed/ in case you want it. with gtk2 and glade2 bindings ;) Nov 11 23:29:36 rbs-tito_: well, mixture of VB and some C++ Nov 11 23:29:43 edistar: Lol, to break a Windows machine you just need to write a few DOS commands into a batch file Nov 11 23:29:53 rbs-tito_: but to produce a bluescreen.. Nov 11 23:30:06 Kero: Thanks :) I won't get much use out of it until I get a neo though Nov 11 23:30:08 * Kero wonders whether he should build e17 bindings, too, now that raster works for openmoko :) Nov 11 23:30:13 rbs-tito_: to break linux: rm -rf / Nov 11 23:30:26 Kero: why not? Nov 11 23:30:34 rbs-tito_: but it needs to be in style Nov 11 23:30:39 edistar: Jah, but you have to be dumb enough to put yoour root password in Nov 11 23:31:04 rbs-tito_: linux users aren't generally.. Nov 11 23:31:21 edistar: I know nothing about e17, never used it. So, ehm, experience and (learning) time :) Nov 11 23:31:22 edistar: I dunno, I've got about 6 noobs running Ubuntu Nov 11 23:31:35 actually there are some.. I told a friend once that he should rm -r / one, as a joke, thought he'd understand.. well, he didn't.. Nov 11 23:31:50 he was running ubuntu too... Nov 11 23:32:00 well, till he did what I told him xD Nov 11 23:32:01 * rbs-tito_ loves Ubuntu Nov 11 23:32:07 was actually quite amusing Nov 11 23:32:19 * edistar likes debian more, just more fun somehow Nov 11 23:32:29 i like debian Nov 11 23:32:30 it's nice Nov 11 23:32:38 but ubuntu is nice in a diffrent way Nov 11 23:32:52 Are FIC actually doing and development work on Openmoko then? Or are they just building the devices? Nov 11 23:33:02 thats true, I like the design, and everything is very smooth, till you reach a point where you break something tiny ;) Nov 11 23:33:23 *an Nov 11 23:33:25 *any Nov 11 23:33:29 rbs-tito_: I think they pay OpenMoko to develop OM and build the devices Nov 11 23:33:42 Cool Nov 11 23:33:52 I just changed networks, i'm using Blyk now, it's free Nov 11 23:34:01 rbs-tito_: they even set up openmoko I think :) Nov 11 23:34:49 rbs-tito_: how old are you then? if your doing a-level now.. Nov 11 23:35:07 edistar: 17 in Feb Nov 11 23:35:12 cool Nov 11 23:35:30 rbs-tito_: where are you applying for uni? Nov 11 23:35:47 When we get our finished and polished Neos are networks going to be arsey about it? Like when you call an ISP and say you are using Linux Nov 11 23:36:16 rbs-tito_: No idea yet! Maybe here in Wales, like Cardiff. I'd love to do Computer Systems Engineering at Southampton though Nov 11 23:36:24 rbs-tito_: I don't think they'll mind, they will just not give you all the support.. Nov 11 23:36:45 And are we likely to see these popping up in the high street? Nov 11 23:37:24 I have an s75, and when I was in oxford, applying for a place there I bought a sim card.. of course I wanted to make use of gprs :P need to ssh to my server.. so I asked vodafone to send me the gprs settings Nov 11 23:37:54 edistar: Did you get a place in Oxford? Nov 11 23:38:11 they refused to send them to me as my s75 siemens model wasn't in the database.. till I told them to send me the s65 data as it is identical :rolleyes: I needed to actually tell them it was my risk etc Nov 11 23:38:21 rbs-tito_: yes, conditional offer, AAB Nov 11 23:38:27 awesome Nov 11 23:38:32 what are you doing for A2 then? Nov 11 23:38:48 hm, booting Neo after two weeks (off) gives me... white screen. Nov 11 23:38:50 rbs-tito_: I go to school in germany, what do you mean with A2? Nov 11 23:39:10 edistar: Oh right, a2 is the final year of a-level Nov 11 23:39:20 Kero: Tried the old mallet? Nov 11 23:39:26 rbs-tito_: well, main subjects are math and english Nov 11 23:39:30 (battery out+in, boots fine now) Nov 11 23:39:41 rbs-tito_: then physics and philosophy Nov 11 23:39:46 Kero: Just one of those unexplainable things then :) Nov 11 23:40:04 edistar: I think I'm about to fail Maths. I'm doing maths physics history and computing Nov 11 23:40:38 rbs-tito_: I like maths, it's just a bit hard.. lot of practice Nov 11 23:40:57 I Nov 11 23:41:03 prefer physics Nov 11 23:41:24 I might buy a Neo now Nov 11 23:42:08 rbs-tito_: if we had real computing, e.g. turing machine and proper programming, not only brute forcing some solution to a game for about a year, I'd take it as an a-level subject.. Nov 11 23:42:35 edistar: Education in the UK is appalling, we don't even do that Nov 11 23:42:50 edistar: We wrote hello world and that is the most advanced thing on the course Nov 11 23:42:50 rbs-tito_: I will buy a neo for sure, it's perfect I think, it will have bindings to python, it will have gps, and touch and gsm, what else do you need? Nov 11 23:43:26 rbs-tito_: well.. this course has been going on for 3 years now Nov 11 23:43:48 edistar: All courses are 2 years before Uni in the UK Nov 11 23:44:10 ok Nov 11 23:44:15 german system is a bit different Nov 11 23:45:42 good thing is: only after I took computing did I get my own pc and learn all about linux and hardware in general, that was when I was 14 maybe, before that I hardly knew how to turn on a pc Nov 11 23:46:21 edistar: do you live in germany? Nov 11 23:46:40 bmk789_: no, in the Netherlands, 5 mins from germany Nov 11 23:46:46 ah Nov 11 23:47:12 edistar: Lol! Weird Nov 11 23:47:16 yes Nov 11 23:47:31 and I'm half british Nov 11 23:47:36 Even crazier Nov 11 23:47:46 I'm part Spanish part Welsh Nov 11 23:47:52 and part english Nov 11 23:48:00 not bad Nov 11 23:48:04 I like the welsh Nov 11 23:48:15 lol, that is a strange thing to say Nov 11 23:48:27 rbs-tito_: well.. I know a few Nov 11 23:51:55 You know when you buy the iphone? As soon as you plug it into itunes it asks for a £100 deposit on top of the price of the handset!! Nov 11 23:52:22 hm? Nov 11 23:53:13 edistar: As soon as you plug it in to itunes to get it activated it says you need to pay £100 Nov 11 23:53:32 rbs-tito_: are you serious? Nov 11 23:54:17 edistar: Yup. And of course you are locked into 18 months contract at £35/month Nov 11 23:54:49 rbs-tito_: much to expensive.. Nov 11 23:54:56 * Stephmw pictures the iPhone dance thusly: "Pick up the soap, m'dear" Nov 11 23:55:00 I would buy the device and open it.. Nov 11 23:55:23 if you don't activate in itunes you don't pay the contract, do you? Nov 11 23:55:39 edistar: if you don't pay the conract it doesn't turn on Nov 11 23:55:55 rbs-tito_: there are tools Nov 11 23:56:36 edistar: Nope, UK version comes with the new firmware. There aren't any workarounds to install 3rd party software. If it picks up 3rd party software it breaks itself! Nov 11 23:56:43 a friend of mine in germany has an american iphone Nov 11 23:57:00 lovely.. I think that firmware is cracked already or will be in 2 weeks Nov 11 23:58:01 dodgy though, anyone who cracked the first one and then updated the iphone (happens automatically through EDGE) ended up with a brick to throw away, and an 18 month contract with no handset! Nov 11 23:58:11 rbs-tito_: got any good website, some tutorials for learning ruby? Nov 11 23:58:24 well, you could unbrick it Nov 11 23:58:26 ;) Nov 11 23:58:41 edistar: http://tryruby.hobix.com/ Nov 11 23:58:47 edistar: That is awesome Nov 11 23:59:34 rbs-tito_: that website is cool Nov 12 00:00:46 rbs-tito_: starts a bit basic, but it looks like fun ;) Nov 12 00:00:56 edistar: Yeah Nov 12 00:01:53 rbs-tito_: what is ruby mainly used for? webstuff or desktop programs? Nov 12 00:02:49 edistar: It's like Python on the desktop but the code is much cleaner. Ruby-on-rails is a good webstuff language Nov 12 00:03:01 rbs-tito_: sounds good Nov 12 00:03:06 cleaner than python? Nov 12 00:03:33 edistar: Yeah, start learning the syntax and you'll see everything seems much more logical and more efficient Nov 12 00:04:11 okey Nov 12 00:04:14 I Nov 12 00:04:18 'll take a look Nov 12 00:06:20 edistar: I changed from Python to Ruby. GTK bindings are just as good too Nov 12 00:06:46 rbs-tito_: I like these square brackets.. Nov 12 00:06:55 indents are just cleaner Nov 12 00:07:14 I'm awful at indenting Nov 12 00:07:17 Well, I like it Nov 12 00:07:27 :P Nov 12 00:07:31 But when I write code that looks neat to me everyone else says it is ugly Nov 12 00:07:37 I've been trough my share of langauges, i can honestly say python is the one i like the most Nov 12 00:07:56 well... I read about a code cleaning program some time ago, it was really cool Nov 12 00:07:58 Each to their own I suppose Nov 12 00:08:06 edistar: no need for that Nov 12 00:08:12 just stick to a certain set of rules Nov 12 00:08:18 flexd: it cleaned up my xml :P Nov 12 00:08:23 like, try to keep things organized Nov 12 00:08:32 it always helps if you write down what you are doing in a logical order first Nov 12 00:08:34 but I must say my python is always quite readable Nov 12 00:08:39 name variables sensible, dont go calling stuff like randomshitthatdoesthispossibly Nov 12 00:08:42 Then when you get making code it comes out much better Nov 12 00:08:43 and comment what you do Nov 12 00:08:55 should probably tell that i do little of these things i say Nov 12 00:09:00 but it ends up pretty good looking anwyay Nov 12 00:09:01 ;) Nov 12 00:10:12 is a list==array in ruby? Nov 12 00:11:05 edistar: Pretty much, but you use it slightly different to it helps to call it a list not an array Nov 12 00:11:40 ok Nov 12 00:12:20 I love dictionaries :) Nov 12 00:12:23 things i code usually end up looking something like this: http://flexd.ath.cx/blue.py Nov 12 00:13:22 flexd: Thats cleaner than mne Nov 12 00:13:25 *mine Nov 12 00:13:31 that's one of the cleaner ones.. :p Nov 12 00:13:43 aslong as it's tiny it's pretty clean Nov 12 00:13:57 once it gets big.. it's a mess Nov 12 00:14:47 flexd: So split it up into different files! It helps for me even though it makes no logical sense Nov 12 00:15:04 rbs-tito_: i have Nov 12 00:15:05 hold on Nov 12 00:15:24 Ah I see, I thought you wrote everything monolithic Nov 12 00:15:27 http://flexd.ath.cx/flexdbot/ :) Nov 12 00:15:34 wtf, my pc is telling me I don't have enough room to save /tmp/blue.py Nov 12 00:15:39 cool Nov 12 00:15:52 my first real python project Nov 12 00:16:00 I have about 60gb free, can someone hint to me what the problem is? Nov 12 00:16:56 i wish i could make apache show .py files as text though Nov 12 00:17:15 edistar: is your /tmp on a different mount point that / or /home? Nov 12 00:18:01 netx: no, it isn't Nov 12 00:18:08 /tmp is empty Nov 12 00:18:31 no hidden files either Nov 12 00:18:47 empty? as in totally empty? that's bizarre Nov 12 00:19:15 netx: completely empty, I emptied it just now because I thought it might be full.. Nov 12 00:19:19 my /tmp always has something in it, usually temp files or dirs for background processes Nov 12 00:19:25 ah ic Nov 12 00:19:36 netx: but the problem occured before Nov 12 00:20:21 maybe I should just restart the pc, but that shouldn't be a solution Nov 12 00:21:43 flexd: I'm sure you can Nov 12 00:22:14 cu in minute Nov 12 00:22:33 is there a wiki page on the state of 3G? Nov 12 00:23:48 or a mailing list archive? Nov 12 00:26:00 i know its probably been covered over and over but google hasnt found anything really about it Nov 12 00:26:00 * * OM Bug 1004 has been created by exabyte(AT)3mhz.net Nov 12 00:26:01 * * Dialer keypad is leaking memory on normal presses Nov 12 00:26:02 * * http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=1004 Nov 12 00:26:12 re Nov 12 00:26:20 nothing working anymore :( can't even start fluxbox as it can't write to /tmp anymore Nov 12 00:26:57 oh dear, you broke something Nov 12 00:27:19 rbs-tito_: so was i Nov 12 00:27:21 until i tried Nov 12 00:27:32 apparently Addtype text/plain .py in my apache2.conf does absolutely nothing Nov 12 00:27:41 neither does the same in a .htaccess in the folders i want it in :/ Nov 12 00:27:49 flexd: yes, something.. it was openmokos build fault, I had that half a year ago too, then I just needed to delete and mkdir /tmp and chmod it, then everything worked again, now it doesn't.. Nov 12 00:27:52 seems like firefox is dead set on downloading it Nov 12 00:27:53 flexd: ...Isn't it *.py ? Nov 12 00:28:00 rbs-tito_: possibly :< Nov 12 00:28:16 nope Nov 12 00:28:29 flexd: Oh, how odd. Perhaps it is firefox then Nov 12 00:28:57 maybe Nov 12 00:28:57 I've seen apache modules that open files of code and highlight the syntax as html. I don't know what they are called though Nov 12 00:28:59 you try it Nov 12 00:29:06 http://flexd.ath.cx/blue.py Nov 12 00:29:10 flexd: I'm on a laptop Nov 12 00:29:22 You are on the internet my friend Nov 12 00:29:24 it works both ways Nov 12 00:29:32 flexd: Oh, I thought you meant on my apache server Nov 12 00:29:34 LOL Nov 12 00:29:51 The code flashed up on a grey background quickly, then dissapeared and I got a download dialogue Nov 12 00:29:56 err Nov 12 00:30:00 it works in IE Nov 12 00:30:22 gdamnit Nov 12 00:30:24 rough Nov 12 00:30:59 I've seen a plugin that can use tar.gz files as if they were directories, pretty cool Nov 12 00:33:55 i found a plugin that does what i want Nov 12 00:38:57 bbl sleeps \o Nov 12 00:40:49 re Nov 12 01:04:10 good night Nov 12 01:40:17 hey all Nov 12 01:42:09 Break rule #1.. Question; any word on the html browser that will be used for GTA02? Nov 12 01:44:15 i read something about WebKit in LJ Nov 12 01:44:30 got a link? Nov 12 01:44:41 http://webkit.org/ Nov 12 01:44:46 i believe thats it Nov 12 01:44:52 waiting for this phone is killing it Nov 12 01:44:54 me Nov 12 01:45:27 same here Nov 12 02:24:52 I'm trying to find some more recent articles on LJ but nothing Nov 12 02:25:11 would love to know more about the html browser Nov 12 02:26:30 don what do you wanna know? Nov 12 02:26:41 its based on gtk-webkit Nov 12 02:27:26 anyone used it yet? Nov 12 02:27:49 sure. we build and install it by default in openmoko images Nov 12 02:28:00 its yet very basic Nov 12 02:28:38 but it renders the web much more correct than the mobile ie ive seen on most mobiles/PDA Nov 12 02:28:39 basic? not a full browser et? Nov 12 02:28:42 yet? Nov 12 02:29:17 basic as in features. its still in progress.. like its no epiphany yet. no real bookmarks or downloads yet Nov 12 02:35:02 why not firefox? Nov 12 02:35:25 or minimo Nov 12 02:35:43 firefox is horrible Nov 12 02:35:55 bloated, memory loss, especially on linux Nov 12 02:36:07 really? it is all I use Nov 12 02:36:17 never had a problem Nov 12 02:36:29 try epiphany, it's far faster, only thing is it doesn't have as many extensions Nov 12 02:37:23 will do Nov 12 02:37:45 why not use epiphany then? Is it that tied to gnome? Nov 12 02:39:06 I ask because I have used safari and I'm not that impressed Nov 12 02:54:44 anyone know if there is going to be any support for CDMA? Nov 12 02:55:23 not in the GTA01 or GTA02 Nov 12 02:55:24 unlikely. Nov 12 02:55:35 damn Nov 12 02:55:46 went to get a phone here in the US, not allowed do so unless you have a SSN :( Nov 12 02:55:51 I don't get mine till next week Nov 12 02:56:05 huh? Nov 12 02:56:21 :are you kidding? Nov 12 02:56:47 credit check Nov 12 02:57:24 seems silly. Nov 12 02:57:25 still... Nov 12 02:58:19 The US model is to give enormous subsidies on the phone, and make it up in a contract -- that's only good business if they can be assured that the buyer is credit-worthy. It does suck. Nov 12 02:58:36 er what? Nov 12 02:58:47 I can get a pay-as-you-go-phone easily, but for a contract phone I need an SSN Nov 12 02:58:47 the only people you should give your ssn number to are the banks Nov 12 02:58:53 that's crazy Nov 12 02:58:57 Except they really don't give much of a subsidy Nov 12 02:58:57 can't you put money down? Nov 12 02:59:01 this was in BestBuy Nov 12 02:59:06 ah, bestbuy = suck Nov 12 02:59:09 heh Nov 12 02:59:44 I'm planning on getting the cheapest contract phone possible, pulling the sim out of it, and sticking it in my 6310i **** ENDING LOGGING AT Mon Nov 12 02:59:56 2007