**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Thu Nov 29 02:59:56 2007
Nov 29 03:15:01 <cdbot2> * * OM Bug 1042 has been created by tick(AT)openmoko.com
Nov 29 03:15:01 <cdbot2> * * Phonebook use cases
Nov 29 03:15:02 <cdbot2> * * http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=1042
Nov 29 03:17:01 <cdbot2> * * OM Bug 1043 has been created by tick(AT)openmoko.com
Nov 29 03:17:01 <cdbot2> * * Call use cases
Nov 29 03:17:02 <cdbot2> * * http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=1043
Nov 29 03:33:08 <Demonax> Geez, this looks so clean it looks like it's rendered. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7c/USA_10096-7-8_HDR_Antelope_Canyon_Luca_Galuzzi_2007.jpg
Nov 29 03:36:13 <balrog-kun> it's even got this unnatural shadows near the ground like in shitty 3d games :)
Nov 29 03:37:07 <balrog-kun> oh, it's HDR, that's why it's unnatural - cause it's partially a render
Nov 29 03:38:04 <balrog-kun> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_dynamic_range_imaging
Nov 29 03:38:34 <pjz> anyone got any update on GTA02 status?
Nov 29 03:38:46 <Demonax> balrog-kun: ah thanks.
Nov 29 03:39:25 <pjz> last I heard was 'waiting on wifi hardware to be verified good'
Nov 29 03:41:20 <Demonax> pjz: what I was just told was that release is scheduled around January February now.
Nov 29 03:42:20 <pjz> Demonax: told by who?
Nov 29 03:42:27 * pjz sighs, was hoping for one for xmas
Nov 29 03:43:02 * pjz is also actaully somewhat expecting a price increase due to USD sucking so much
Nov 29 03:43:59 <Demonax> pjz: dbmoodb told me.
Nov 29 03:44:09 <Demonax> Yeah, I was hoping for one in Christmas too.
Nov 29 03:44:53 <pjz> I guess the good news is all the interst I'm making on the money I've had saved for the phone for almost a year :)
Nov 29 03:44:55 <Demonax> Woah awesome, the USD _really_ sucks, dev kit should be much cheaper for me. :-p
Nov 29 03:46:05 <cjb_ie> it's not originating in US though...
Nov 29 03:46:34 <Demonax> I know, but isn't the purchase price on the website going to be in USD?
Nov 29 03:47:33 <cjb_ie> maybe, but the landed price in the US is going to be lots more USD than before
Nov 29 03:48:16 <cjb_ie> so the thing to hope for is for the USB to go further in the toilet between them being imported into the US, and being exported again
Nov 29 03:48:24 <cjb_ie> s/USB/USD/
Nov 29 03:48:26 <apt> cjb_ie meant: so the thing to hope for is for the USD to go further in the toilet between them being imported into the US, and being exported again
Nov 29 03:57:30 <xzcvczx> nnpiggy: you aruond?
Nov 29 03:58:54 * xzcvczx wants to see ther usd at 10c nzd
Nov 29 05:15:39 <roh> somebody awake?
Nov 29 05:15:47 * roh needs some testers
Nov 29 05:18:46 <moko-bunny> barely.  testers?
Nov 29 05:25:54 <roh> people with a gta01bv04 ready to test something for me before release
Nov 29 05:27:09 <mmontour> roh: I have a gta01bv4
Nov 29 05:30:06 <roh> mompls
Nov 29 05:31:43 <moko-bunny> I have one too....just booted up the linux box and was going to do a build to see how things are, but I'd be happy to test out whatever :)
Nov 29 06:55:00 <cdbot2> * * OM Bug 1044 has been created by robophred(AT)gmail.com
Nov 29 06:55:02 <cdbot2> * * calc_next_timeout 't' assert failure.
Nov 29 06:55:03 <cdbot2> * * http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=1044
Nov 29 07:55:08 <flexd_> g'morning \o
Nov 29 07:55:25 <kimnotyze> morning
Nov 29 07:57:13 <borg_> morning :)
Nov 29 08:02:23 <hrw> morning
Nov 29 08:07:13 * buz wonders about that gps driver testing offer
Nov 29 08:07:16 <buz> i dont even have neo
Nov 29 08:14:30 <Hopscotch> good morning
Nov 29 08:16:00 <flexd_> morning
Nov 29 08:21:27 <xzcvczx> buz: gps driver testing offer???
Nov 29 08:24:06 <buz> well mail was privately adressed
Nov 29 08:24:29 <buz> seems they at least have the legal stuff worked out now
Nov 29 08:24:55 <borg_> 06:25 < roh> people with a gta01bv04 ready to test something for me before release
Nov 29 08:25:06 <borg_> xzcvczx: ask roh about it
Nov 29 08:25:39 <buz> maybe i should mail back "sure, if you send me the hardware :"
Nov 29 08:25:59 <borg_> :D
Nov 29 08:37:02 <xzcvczx> roh: yup i can test hopefully
Nov 29 08:38:03 <torpor> woot!  lovin' the gllin beta .. 
Nov 29 08:43:20 <blindcoder> moin
Nov 29 08:43:40 <_diego__> gllin beta? Interesting, at least i can stop using a BT gps antenna :)
Nov 29 08:49:03 <dread> roh: I've an GTA01bv04, too, and i'm willing to test :)
Nov 29 08:50:31 <torpor> roh: the download link doesn't work.  because of the EULA wrapper, if you try to save the .ipk, you just get the eula text and nothing else in the .ipk file .. 
Nov 29 08:51:30 <josch> wohooo! gllin test! where??
Nov 29 08:52:37 <flexd_> roh
Nov 29 09:00:06 <CM> faern: Dreamhack? :)
Nov 29 09:00:54 <faern> CM, YES
Nov 29 09:00:56 <faern> :D
Nov 29 09:01:22 <faern> CM, då oxå?
Nov 29 09:02:01 <CM> Nope, jag jobbar.. 
Nov 29 09:02:45 <faern> :/
Nov 29 09:03:02 <jeddy3> mmm, dreamhack ^_^
Nov 29 09:03:20 <CM> Never been there.. Am I too old? :P
Nov 29 09:03:44 * jeddy3 has also never been there :P
Nov 29 09:04:23 * jeddy3 should have gone when it was arranged in "the dome" xD, in his old hometown
Nov 29 09:04:32 <jeddy3> ...kupolen :D
Nov 29 09:05:13 <CM> Hehe
Nov 29 09:05:47 <zash> THE DOOM!
Nov 29 09:06:05 <kimnotyze> doom? ip? ^^
Nov 29 09:06:32 <jeddy3> :D
Nov 29 09:11:34 <josch> 8472.... I know this numbers...
Nov 29 09:12:06 <kimnotyze> Borg?
Nov 29 09:12:20 <josch> no NOT borg - the opposite
Nov 29 09:12:22 <flexd_> TG > Dreamhack!
Nov 29 09:12:30 <flexd_> grob?
Nov 29 09:12:40 <cjb_ie> kupolen? not in borlänge?
Nov 29 09:14:45 <kimnotyze> how to explain a girlfriend that a new mobilephone is more important than a dinner with her parents?
Nov 29 09:15:11 <josch> kimnotyze, easy - show her scummvm!
Nov 29 09:15:14 <buz> dont
Nov 29 09:15:30 <josch> or supertux
Nov 29 09:15:39 <kimnotyze> =D but then she will ask: "Is 'Sims' running on this device?"
Nov 29 09:15:39 <josch> or frozen-bubble
Nov 29 09:15:46 <josch> d'oh
Nov 29 09:15:59 <zash> kimnotyze: classic :/
Nov 29 09:16:10 <josch> wesnoth is running on it!!
Nov 29 09:16:15 <XorA> kimnotyze: getting a new phone is only $200 a year, getting a new girl is a whole lot more expensive
Nov 29 09:16:20 <kimnotyze> josch: but thats _not_ sims xD
Nov 29 09:16:48 <kimnotyze> XorA: ive got the phone.. but i want to met with some friends this night.. to hack on the oM ;)
Nov 29 09:17:07 <josch> take her with you!
Nov 29 09:17:10 <kimnotyze> we have planned this sience a month xD
Nov 29 09:17:29 <kimnotyze> josch: "What is this" "A laptop" "can it play Sims?" xD
Nov 29 09:17:37 <josch> lol
Nov 29 09:18:15 <josch> aren't there any sims clones we could quickly port to arm?
Nov 29 09:18:18 <kimnotyze> worse situation :-/
Nov 29 09:18:42 <zash> a tamagochi-ish clone for arm could do perhaps?
Nov 29 09:19:08 <kimnotyze> hmm.. think i have to write a sims clone until 8 pm CEST -.-
Nov 29 09:19:34 <zash> kimnotyze: coffee, lots of it!
Nov 29 09:19:47 <josch> kimnotyze, you are german! your girlfriend is german too - german girls love the moko! (at least I figured this out)
Nov 29 09:20:16 <ewon> so that's why I've been single for th elast 2 years
Nov 29 09:20:20 <ewon> I need to get a new phone
Nov 29 09:20:21 <josch> kimnotyze, forget coffee: http://xkcd.com/323/
Nov 29 09:21:31 <kimnotyze> yeah
Nov 29 09:29:05 <CM> cjb_ie: How do you know that one? Google? ;)
Nov 29 09:29:32 <cjb_ie> CM: i had a gf there
Nov 29 09:29:48 <CM> cjb_ie: In kupolen? Weird.. :P
Nov 29 09:29:59 <cjb_ie> in borlänge :p
Nov 29 09:30:02 <jeddy3> cjb_ie, yes borlänge :D
Nov 29 09:30:07 <CVirus> what's a girl friend ?
Nov 29 09:30:15 <CVirus> a laptop that is ?
Nov 29 09:30:28 <CM> CVirus: No, much more expensive
Nov 29 09:30:36 <kimnotyze> hehe =D
Nov 29 09:31:04 <jeddy3> cjb_ie, i grew up in Borlänge :)
Nov 29 09:31:47 <cjb_ie> small world
Nov 29 09:32:03 <CM> cjb_ie: Know what's smaller?
Nov 29 09:32:42 <kimnotyze> CM: uClinux?
Nov 29 09:32:46 <kimnotyze> =p
Nov 29 09:32:48 <CM> cjb_ie: Me and jeddy3 met maybe 20 years ago, since our families have a summer houses near eachother ;9
Nov 29 09:33:06 <borg_> :)
Nov 29 09:33:21 <jeddy3> yes, thats really weird
Nov 29 09:33:57 * CM needs some coffee
Nov 29 09:34:05 <Mononoke> coffee \o/
Nov 29 09:34:23 * jeddy3 just fetched coffee \(^_^)/
Nov 29 09:34:24 <torpor> anyone doing the migration to monotone.openembedded.org?
Nov 29 09:34:35 <torpor> i get this when i do it:
Nov 29 09:34:35 <torpor> mtn: misuse: database /home/j/hak/openmoko/OE.mtn is laid out according to an old schema
Nov 29 09:35:04 * zash need more coffee
Nov 29 09:39:15 <Mononoke> monotone uses sha1 which is rather old :S
Nov 29 09:51:04 <Stephmw> mornin
Nov 29 09:51:57 <rwhitby> morning
Nov 29 09:55:20 <hrw> torpor: and it tells you how to update it
Nov 29 09:57:06 <rwhitby> Does anyone think it is necessary to retain 2007.1 openmoko generation in MokoMakefile?
Nov 29 09:58:16 <hrw> rwhitby: no
Nov 29 10:08:28 <josch> what is 2007.1 still for??
Nov 29 10:09:07 <kimnotyze> josch: its the old version of the oM interface
Nov 29 10:09:56 <CM> rwhitby: I doubt it's useful for anything any more
Nov 29 10:10:27 <CM> At least not for anyone using the makefile ;)
Nov 29 10:11:23 <hrw> CM: except those who wants to look how ugly it was
Nov 29 10:11:49 <CM> Hehe, exactly. And I guess you can still build it using bitbake?
Nov 29 10:12:01 <hrw> if you want...
Nov 29 10:13:43 <CM> The world is full of masochists.. ;)
Nov 29 10:15:03 <Stephmw> yup, 326 in here
Nov 29 10:15:15 <hrw> Stephmw: I had to say that ;(
Nov 29 10:15:26 <josch> kimnotyze, I know WHAT it is but I don't know why it is still there
Nov 29 10:16:04 <torpor> hrw: i do the update and now i get this:
Nov 29 10:16:26 <torpor> http://rafb.net/p/54AiqT37.html
Nov 29 10:17:11 <torpor> sorry but this looks borked to me.
Nov 29 10:17:36 <hrw> torpor: I do not know how mokomakefile works internally
Nov 29 10:17:42 <torpor> me either
Nov 29 10:17:44 <torpor> ;)
Nov 29 10:17:53 <torpor> i'm just following directions.  they do not work.
Nov 29 10:18:27 <hrw> but it looks like openmoko monotone server is down
Nov 29 10:18:37 <hrw> iirc they work on it
Nov 29 10:19:21 * CM just synced
Nov 29 10:19:28 <torpor> its not because of this?
Nov 29 10:19:28 <torpor> mtn: misuse: base revision 1e4ef7149831080d7927cc7ef101deab67fae6d7 does not exist in database
Nov 29 10:19:54 <rwhitby> torpor: I am talking with OM folks about it now. MokoMakefile won't be changing over to the OM server until they work out how to do versioned snapshot downloads like at http://www.openembedded.org/snapshots/
Nov 29 10:20:15 <rwhitby> (otherwise there will be too many people with monotone db migration problems)
Nov 29 10:20:37 <hrw> http://blog.haerwu.biz/2007/11/29/gps-driver-for-fic-gta01-in-beta/
Nov 29 10:21:53 <torpor> rwhitby: damnit so what do i do now to go back to having a working mokomakefile setup?
Nov 29 10:22:11 <josch> rm -rf *
Nov 29 10:22:18 <torpor> not funny
Nov 29 10:22:22 <rwhitby> make update-makefile; make setup; make update
Nov 29 10:22:24 <hrw> josch: /* you mean?
Nov 29 10:22:26 <ScaredyCat> hrw: isn't that just the wrapper + old gllin?
Nov 29 10:22:30 <josch> hrw, ^^
Nov 29 10:22:50 <hrw> ScaredyCat: it is but with everything needed to get it working
Nov 29 10:23:01 <ScaredyCat> errm... ok...
Nov 29 10:23:16 <ScaredyCat> ^^ says that as if it's not that case already ;)
Nov 29 10:23:23 <josch> hrw, pff... got this wrapper to work month ago - what's new?
Nov 29 10:23:33 <torpor> rwhitby: ta
Nov 29 10:23:46 <ScaredyCat> josch: he's using it legally
Nov 29 10:23:48 <torpor> josch: whats new is that its in an .ipk and its public and can now be included in things.
Nov 29 10:24:30 <josch> torpor, an ipk that installs to $HOME ??
Nov 29 10:24:44 <Stephmw> meh, work in progress :)
Nov 29 10:24:51 * ScaredyCat points at his repo and openmoko-agpsui2
Nov 29 10:25:00 <cdbot2> * * OM Bug 1045 has been created by thomas(AT)openedhand.com
Nov 29 10:25:01 <cdbot2> * * gsmd does not ignore extra line feeds
Nov 29 10:25:02 <cdbot2> * * http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=1045
Nov 29 10:25:21 <ScaredyCat> all you need is the wrapper + gllin 
Nov 29 10:25:30 <josch> ScaredyCat, yeah agpsui2 roxx
Nov 29 10:25:52 <ScaredyCat> well, it works, which is the main thing :)
Nov 29 10:26:12 <hrw> josch: how many people officially has gllin?
Nov 29 10:26:30 <torpor> i have it
Nov 29 10:26:33 <torpor> and i'm testing it now
Nov 29 10:26:38 <ScaredyCat> in theory - none...because its distribution was in error
Nov 29 10:27:29 <josch> hey, now everyone using gllin can make himself legal again! ^^
Nov 29 10:27:58 <ScaredyCat> did anyone get a copy of the EULA?
Nov 29 10:28:33 <josch> mickey|zzZZzz, did ^^
Nov 29 10:28:41 <ScaredyCat> :/
Nov 29 10:29:04 <ScaredyCat> did he post it, or was it against the EULA 
Nov 29 10:29:06 <ScaredyCat> :P
Nov 29 10:37:21 <rwhitby> Hmm - do we want a "bleeding-edge" switch in MokoMakefile for people who want to get the latest changes from OE directly, rather than getting the safe OM version?
Nov 29 10:41:12 <borg_> rwhitby: i guess there are people who want
Nov 29 10:41:58 * ScaredyCat insists it's on by default ;)
Nov 29 10:42:15 <borg_> especially when you want to make/test a patch for something
Nov 29 10:42:21 <borg_> you probably want the newest version
Nov 29 10:42:52 <rwhitby> This weekly freezing will be a dual-edged sword.
Nov 29 10:43:37 <torpor> okay well the gllin works fine.
Nov 29 10:44:14 <torpor> rwhitby: i don't think its wise to fork mokomakefile into two pieces.  you should just let your build manager do his job and make sure he does his job, so that the gap between the two trees is not so wide.
Nov 29 10:44:42 <CM> rwhitby: A stable/unstable setting would be much appreciated, stable being default, but making it easier for those who want to mess around. :)
Nov 29 10:44:47 <torpor> i say let the build guy do what he's supposed to do: give app developers a stable reference upon which to base their development efforts.
Nov 29 10:46:33 <rwhitby> My monotone database is symlinked between OM, OE and nslu2-linux, so I'll always have the latest anyway :-)
Nov 29 10:46:41 <XorA> torpor: you realise no-one but you guys will use the "stable" tree
Nov 29 10:47:51 <rwhitby> XorA: aren't you supposed to be pushing the "party line" ? ;-)
Nov 29 10:48:40 <XorA> rwhitby: that is the party line, Im a developer so I have to develop against today, not last week
Nov 29 10:49:14 <torpor> bah!
Nov 29 10:49:17 <hrw> rwhitby: make update <> make update-head?
Nov 29 10:49:30 <torpor> i sure would like to see things stabilize so we can just focus on apps, and not on system.
Nov 29 10:49:57 <torpor> it seems to me that the problem is there's a  system componenent that should b erock solid stable, and an app componentn that should be very flexible.
Nov 29 10:50:08 <torpor> but, whatever. i'll keep trying to get an app out.  soon, soon, any day now .. ;)
Nov 29 10:50:11 <rwhitby> torpor: you want the SDK that mickey is going to release then.
Nov 29 10:50:17 <rwhitby> and not use MokoMakefile at all.
Nov 29 10:50:23 <torpor> maybe
Nov 29 10:50:26 <torpor> could be
Nov 29 10:51:03 <torpor> but to be honest thats a detail i'd rather ignore while i write an app.  there is far too much stickiness in the way the whole tree is organized/forked, and lots of seemingly political decisions.  i just wanna write an app, run it on my phone, and give it to my users.
Nov 29 10:51:18 <torpor> for now i'm happy with mokomakefile, its stabilized (apart from todays mess) enough for me to do primary app work.
Nov 29 10:51:40 <AlexJTanner> well the randomly putting #openmoko on freenode works
Nov 29 10:51:47 <AlexJTanner> anyone there?
Nov 29 10:51:51 <rwhitby> nope
Nov 29 10:51:57 <Stephmw> 326 lurkers
Nov 29 10:52:06 <Stephmw> ;)
Nov 29 10:52:08 <_diego__> not me
Nov 29 10:52:21 <AlexJTanner> ok I have some serious ansomnia right now and I am listening to the interview on the linux link tech show
Nov 29 10:52:26 <AlexJTanner> and I have a question
Nov 29 10:52:32 <jeddy3> shoot
Nov 29 10:52:33 * rwhitby notes that mokomakefile didn't break today, some instructions about unofficial hacks to mokomakefile broke ...
Nov 29 10:52:33 <torpor> shoot
Nov 29 10:52:36 * torpor die
Nov 29 10:52:43 <cjb_ie> AlexJTanner: let me guess - when is the new version of the phone available?
Nov 29 10:52:52 <torpor> rwhitby: unofficial hacks? !? !  wtf?  it came from openmoko!! 
Nov 29 10:52:55 <ScaredyCat> you can't spell either AlexJTanner
Nov 29 10:52:56 <AlexJTanner> can we please have a qwerty keyboard
Nov 29 10:53:11 <torpor> AlexJTanner: i use my apple wireless bt keyboard with my neo1973, its lovely and works very very well.
Nov 29 10:53:17 <AlexJTanner> i am a server geek
Nov 29 10:53:27 <rwhitby> torpor: yeah, well they should have checked with me *before* announcing a change to MokoMakefile that wouldn't work properly ...
Nov 29 10:53:33 <AlexJTanner> and I would love to have a phone that I could also use to ssh into my servers
Nov 29 10:53:36 <cjb_ie> ...i gather in theory OM should be able to run on the treo 680 - linux certainly does. dunno about complete hardware support
Nov 29 10:53:43 <torpor> rwhitby: so its politics.  you guys can't organize well enough to have such coordination.
Nov 29 10:53:46 <AlexJTanner> and make any quick changes without having to throw the lappy open
Nov 29 10:53:51 <cjb_ie> AlexJTanner: treo 680 - 80 char wide terminal in 44mm
Nov 29 10:53:54 <torpor> AlexJTanner: just get a bt keyboard, and you're all set.  it works well.
Nov 29 10:54:16 <AlexJTanner> so nothing built in?
Nov 29 10:54:18 <torpor> i use my bt keyboard and neo just as you describ e, and have terminal set up for 80col mode.
Nov 29 10:54:28 <josch> torpor, not all bt keyboards work... :-/
Nov 29 10:54:29 <rwhitby> torpor: is it possible to be part of politics when you're not associated with the company?
Nov 29 10:54:32 <torpor> its a phone.  if it came with a keyboard built in it'd be a laptop.
Nov 29 10:54:38 <torpor> josch: the sexy ones do.
Nov 29 10:54:51 <cjb_ie> torpor: the treo's not a laptop...
Nov 29 10:54:53 <torpor> rwhitby: yes!  when you're an opinion leader/project mover'n'shaker.
Nov 29 10:54:54 <NineX> ScaredyCat: do you know results of your baterry test on qtopia?
Nov 29 10:55:11 <ScaredyCat> not so good...
Nov 29 10:55:11 <rwhitby> AlexJTanner: I'm with you - until the Neo has a keyboard it will be difficult to replace my Treo650.
Nov 29 10:55:20 <AlexJTanner> yeah
Nov 29 10:55:25 <ScaredyCat> it died sometime in the middle of the night
Nov 29 10:55:27 <torpor> neo1973 + apple bt keyboard == LOVE!
Nov 29 10:55:30 <josch> torpor, is this sexy? http://rabenfrost.net/openmoko/keyboard.jpg
Nov 29 10:55:37 <josch> torpor, well it doesn't work
Nov 29 10:55:38 <ScaredyCat> so openmoko does beter atm
Nov 29 10:55:48 <johncylee> rwhitby: that will be my fault... sorry.
Nov 29 10:55:59 <torpor> josch: its not sexy, no.  its whack.  and why doesn't it work?  
Nov 29 10:56:12 <AlexJTanner> i am really tempted to get one of the open moko devolper previews, but I am on alltell
Nov 29 10:56:17 <josch> well it works with my debian/ubuntu but not with openmoko
Nov 29 10:56:22 <torpor> why not?
Nov 29 10:56:24 <josch> I suspect a kernel module missing
Nov 29 10:56:27 <torpor> bah!
Nov 29 10:56:36 <torpor> did you follow the bluetooth howto on the wiki? 
Nov 29 10:56:37 <torpor> coz i did
Nov 29 10:56:43 <torpor> and it works very very well with the apple bt keyboard ..
Nov 29 10:56:53 <torpor> so well that it prompted me to add a bt keyboard page to settingsgui .. 
Nov 29 10:57:00 <AlexJTanner> ok I think you are missing my point
Nov 29 10:57:04 <torpor> .. which isn't finished yet
Nov 29 10:57:08 <josch> torpor, I can assure you that I tried everything I could
Nov 29 10:57:21 <josch> and I also positively tested other keyboards
Nov 29 10:57:25 <AlexJTanner> my point is that I want something to open up, not grab any periphials and do small tasks with a keyboard
Nov 29 10:57:39 <josch> and for this keyboard for example the uinput module waws missing
Nov 29 10:57:42 <torpor> AlexJTanner: like an sl5500 or something.
Nov 29 10:57:43 <josch> I added it to the wiki
Nov 29 10:57:55 <josch> one error went away but it still didn't work
Nov 29 10:57:57 <torpor> josch: doesn't make sense, coz its all onboard.
Nov 29 10:58:01 <torpor> did you do the passkey setup?
Nov 29 10:58:05 <josch> well uinput was not
Nov 29 10:58:14 <torpor> weird.
Nov 29 10:58:16 <torpor> works just great for me.
Nov 29 10:58:40 <josch> this keyboard requieres no pairing
Nov 29 10:58:49 <torpor> i can't say enough about it.  i just love the combination of the two devices.  i'm now leaving my powerbook at home .. 
Nov 29 10:59:04 <torpor> josch: that must be it then, coz i pair my bt keyboard.
Nov 29 10:59:07 <AlexJTanner> torpor: naw with the keyboard the other way
Nov 29 10:59:07 <josch> on ubuntu all I do is hidd --search
Nov 29 10:59:09 <rwhitby> johncylee: no problem - we'll sort it out.
Nov 29 10:59:36 <AlexJTanner> torpor: like a sidekick except without the flip
Nov 29 10:59:40 <AlexJTanner> just slid
Nov 29 10:59:47 <johncylee> rwhitby: I updated wiki to remove the hack..  but I'm not sure if I should remove them completely. 
Nov 29 10:59:52 <Stephmw> josch: yeah, BT on Ubuntu JustWorked... it's a little unreliable though
Nov 29 10:59:55 <josch> torpor, why should paring be the reason? it works on ubuntu without problems?
Nov 29 11:00:40 <johncylee> rwhitby: basically I was going to release the OM server only... seems it's unnecessary to put anything about mokomakefile right now.
Nov 29 11:02:36 <AlexJTanner> also, are their any plans for an IRC client?
Nov 29 11:02:45 <rwhitby> johncylee: if we can get the download snapshot area updated tomorrow .tw time, then just ping me here and we can change over.
Nov 29 11:03:07 <rwhitby> johncylee: I'm in roughly the same timezone - GMT+10:30
Nov 29 11:04:48 <ScaredyCat> rwhitby: are you documenting what is going on on your blog or somehwere.... and if not , why not :)
Nov 29 11:06:45 <rwhitby> ScaredyCat: I posted a follow-up on the mailing lists where the announcement was made.  Apart from that, nothing has changed, so nothing to report yet.
Nov 29 11:06:47 <mjr> Blw. How to get NMEA coordinates into a map position on eg. Google maps?
Nov 29 11:07:08 <Stephmw> mjr: I thought gmaps understood NMEA?
Nov 29 11:07:21 <ScaredyCat> push them into a db, then use ajax on a gm page
Nov 29 11:07:44 <ScaredyCat> 'ajax' meaning a javascript poll script
Nov 29 11:07:58 <Stephmw> Oooo... let's start the RainbowNMEA tables :D
Nov 29 11:08:25 <mjr> at least the search doesn't
Nov 29 11:08:45 <mjr> I suppose I'll have to convert by hand
Nov 29 11:08:56 <AlexJTanner> ok I think I may be able to get to bed now
Nov 29 11:09:04 <AlexJTanner> I will be back tommarow to talk
Nov 29 11:09:21 <rwhitby> AlexJTanner: welcome to the community
Nov 29 11:10:42 <mjr> Whee, I got a good fix :)
Nov 29 11:33:55 <fgau> mjr: convert the NMEA data via gbabel to gpx and upload this to http://www.gpsvisualizer.com/
Nov 29 11:34:02 <Hicks> Hello :)
Nov 29 11:34:50 <mjr> already converted via bc into decimal and confirmed the location on google maps
Nov 29 11:34:55 <Hicks> I'm looking for advices setting up the gta01 as a gprs modem for a eeepc series (Asus), is there anyone who can guide me please?
Nov 29 11:34:55 <mjr> thanks for the pointers, though
Nov 29 11:35:44 <Hicks> Anyone pease?
Nov 29 11:35:45 <mjr> use the GPRS instructions on the wiki, set up ip masquerading on the gta01, and set the gta01 as the default route for your asus?
Nov 29 11:36:00 <Hicks> My problem is before those steps
Nov 29 11:36:26 <mjr> if you have a spesific problem, do tell
Nov 29 11:36:30 <Hicks> i'm not sure on how to set up the gta01 (latest release of OpenMoko) to use our SIM card
Nov 29 11:36:48 <Hicks> the device doesnt asks for a pin, and i dont know how to check if it is connected to GSM or not.
Nov 29 11:37:29 <mjr> "libgsmd-tool -m shell", "O", should ask a PIN; input it, then "r" should register onto the GSM network
Nov 29 11:37:36 <Hicks> i have talked a lot with Joachim about other things, he told me that our company will get support most likely on IRC
Nov 29 11:37:48 <Hicks> ooh fine
Nov 29 11:37:54 <Hicks> hold on i'm trying :)
Nov 29 11:38:18 <Hicks> So actually there is no GUI for people who don't wanna get dirt in command line?
Nov 29 11:38:53 <mjr> apparently the GUI initializing the GSM isn't reliable; some have said it works for them, may be some races in the boot, or may be that spesific releases are required
Nov 29 11:39:34 <Hicks> oh ok
Nov 29 11:39:34 <mjr> (the GUI has PIN-asking code, it actually should also ask it if it's turned on after you input the "O" in libgsmd-tool)
Nov 29 11:39:48 <Hicks> let me try the libgsmd params
Nov 29 11:40:27 <WhatTheHell> hi there. i know this quesiton is a little off-topic, but as you guys are into mobile-phones, do you know where can i find software for backing up samsung e-820 contents? i have the original com cable, but i cannot get a clue on where to find the software. Even at the manufacturer's website there are not any relevant info. thanks :)
Nov 29 11:40:36 <mjr> also if you input the PIN in the gui, it'll register (apparently), so really you should only have to do the O on -tool
Nov 29 11:40:55 <Hicks> yeah but how to "input" the pin in the GUI =/
Nov 29 11:41:13 <mjr> Hicks, the Dial button changes into a Send PIN button
Nov 29 11:41:58 <Hicks> oO really
Nov 29 11:42:01 <Hicks> hold on a sec :)
Nov 29 11:42:17 <Ghiottone|work> hi all
Nov 29 11:42:21 <Hicks> nop
Nov 29 11:42:32 <Hicks> the "dial" button of the dialler APP doesnt change at all
Nov 29 11:42:56 <Hicks> Maybe i'm not talking about the same rootfs image? i'm using the one put on the buildhost this month, the 21th
Nov 29 11:43:23 <mjr> I think I'm using an older one. Anyway, try and initialize and register on -tool for now, at least see if it works at all
Nov 29 11:43:36 <mjr> (I'm using a ScaredyCat image)
Nov 29 11:43:40 <Hicks> ok i'm on it :)
Nov 29 11:45:28 <mjr> should really upgrade sometime and see what breaks again
Nov 29 11:45:37 <Hicks> i think i got the problem pointed
Nov 29 11:45:49 <Hicks> when i try to use libgsmd
Nov 29 11:45:57 <Hicks> it is said that it cant connect to gsmd
Nov 29 11:46:03 <Hicks> so i'm going to start it manually
Nov 29 11:46:06 <mjr> well then, /etc/init.d/gsmd start
Nov 29 11:46:07 <mjr> yeah
Nov 29 11:46:45 <Hicks> should i update-rc.d with it too, or is there a good reason why it doesnt automatically start?
Nov 29 11:47:34 <mjr> well, again it probably "should"
Nov 29 11:47:41 <Hicks> ok
Nov 29 11:47:43 <Hicks> wel
Nov 29 11:47:57 <Hicks> now the gsm daemon is running, i've powered on the GSM with libgsmd
Nov 29 11:48:01 <mjr> for me it even does, as said using the scaredycat images (but not a very new one)
Nov 29 11:48:19 <Hicks> hmm
Nov 29 11:48:29 <Hicks> the dialer says "no network", and doesnt ask for a pin
Nov 29 11:48:37 <Hicks> i'll try setting up the pin using libgsmd wait :)
Nov 29 11:49:15 <Hicks> how to input the pin in libgsmd, if it doesn't ask it itself?
Nov 29 11:49:29 <mjr> well, it _should_ ask :]
Nov 29 11:49:47 <mjr> Did you have a potentially problematic SIM? A US 3G one?
Nov 29 11:50:10 <Hicks> no
Nov 29 11:50:19 <Hicks> french one, tried on 3 neo with 2 different sims.
Nov 29 11:50:33 <Hicks> on our other "regular" phones, we have a good network signal...
Nov 29 11:50:35 <Hicks> so i dont know.
Nov 29 11:50:54 <Hicks> (And the startup links of gsmd seems to be already here at good init levels)
Nov 29 11:51:08 <mjr> so you have libgsmd-tool -m shell there, you say O and it doesn't ask for PIN?
Nov 29 11:51:42 <Hicks> Absolutely, it just says "# # Power-On"
Nov 29 11:51:50 <Hicks> Is it somehow a problem?
Nov 29 11:52:04 <mjr> only in the sense that it should
Nov 29 11:52:10 <Hicks> =/
Nov 29 11:52:16 <Hicks> So what can i do?
Nov 29 11:52:34 * WhatTheHell rapes Hicks 
Nov 29 11:52:46 <Hicks> lol
Nov 29 11:52:54 <mjr> try "o" and "O" for good measure; maybe restart gsmd, try again; then perhaps take the SIM out, reinsert (to try and make sure there's no contact issue)
Nov 29 11:52:57 <Hicks> i'm not sure i understand this :D
Nov 29 11:53:08 <Hicks> ok wait (i just did that, but let me try again)
Nov 29 11:53:25 <mjr> you understood it just fine, WhatTheHell is just being differently polite :]
Nov 29 11:53:36 <Hicks> hmm strange
Nov 29 11:53:52 <Hicks> when i do a gsmd restart, it says it is not running now
Nov 29 11:53:55 <Hicks> maybe it crashes
Nov 29 11:53:57 <WhatTheHell> :D
Nov 29 11:54:02 <mjr> possibly
Nov 29 11:54:03 <WhatTheHell> sorry, just defocusing
Nov 29 11:54:04 <Hicks> but log/messages doesnt tells it
Nov 29 11:54:09 <Hicks> lol whatthe...
Nov 29 11:54:40 <Hicks> good
Nov 29 11:54:45 <Hicks> now it asks for the PIN
Nov 29 11:54:53 <mjr> all right :]
Nov 29 11:55:00 <josch> what did you do Hicks ?
Nov 29 11:55:03 <Hicks> well
Nov 29 11:55:10 <Hicks> josh are you Joachim Steiger?
Nov 29 11:55:25 <josch> Hicks, no ^^
Nov 29 11:55:37 <Hicks> i just restarted it twice, then libgsmtool did ask me the bin after power off - power on
Nov 29 11:55:45 <Hicks> restarted gsmd i mean.
Nov 29 11:56:13 <Hicks> does Ctrl C kills GSMD when operating it from libgsmd tool's shell?
Nov 29 11:56:25 <Hicks> dang
Nov 29 11:56:29 <josch> maybe someone should release a watchdog script checking for the gsmd pid and restarting it if it crashed again
Nov 29 11:56:31 <Hicks> dialer error no network
Nov 29 11:56:34 <Hicks> yes
Nov 29 11:56:42 <mjr> Hicks, did you input r to register
Nov 29 11:56:45 <Hicks> sounds dirty, why does it crash?
Nov 29 11:56:52 <Hicks> nope just done it
Nov 29 11:57:00 <Hicks> now it is searching for network
Nov 29 11:57:01 <Hicks> done
Nov 29 11:57:11 <Hicks> but you said that the GUI would auto register?
Nov 29 11:57:11 <josch> check your connection with Q
Nov 29 11:57:23 * mjr wonders _how_ new an image Hicks is actually using, because my impression is that it should work a bit better nowadays
Nov 29 11:57:33 <mjr> Hicks, if you input the PIN from the GUI...
Nov 29 11:57:43 * josch 's gsmd also crashes alot
Nov 29 11:58:06 <Hicks> if i input the pin from the GUI the "call" button doesnt change.
Nov 29 11:58:10 <mjr> mine just crashes some, not a lot ;)
Nov 29 11:58:17 <Hicks> well
Nov 29 11:58:32 <mjr> Hicks, it should change at the same time you input O on the libgsmd-tool
Nov 29 11:58:40 <mjr> ie. the gui should ask for it
Nov 29 11:58:52 <Hicks> if there are more stable images tell me, i had been told by Joachim to download them at a place
Nov 29 11:58:52 <mjr> probably the gui doesn't have a connection to your newly started gsmd
Nov 29 11:58:55 <mjr> restart the gui
Nov 29 11:58:59 <Hicks> gmm
Nov 29 11:59:02 <Hicks> wait :)
Nov 29 11:59:29 <mjr> (it was some x-nodm initscript)
Nov 29 11:59:32 <mjr> (or something)
Nov 29 11:59:39 <Hicks> hmm cant tell wait
Nov 29 11:59:42 <CM> Hicks: Ask roh who Joachim Steiger is ;)
Nov 29 11:59:54 <Hicks> if i ctrl C the libgsm tool no problem right?
Nov 29 11:59:57 <Hicks> Roh is him
Nov 29 12:00:02 <Hicks> i know that
Nov 29 12:00:05 <mjr> Hicks, it shouldn't be
Nov 29 12:00:08 <Hicks> oky
Nov 29 12:00:16 <Hicks> Mjr you're very helpfull :D
Nov 29 12:00:33 <CM> ~praise mjr 
Nov 29 12:00:35 <apt> All hail mjr!
Nov 29 12:00:36 <mjr> 'course, "shouldn't" is a relative measure
Nov 29 12:00:40 <Hicks> i'm not sure how to restart the GUI without changing my INIT level
Nov 29 12:00:58 <Hicks> do i have to kill the xwindow manager and start it by and or what?
Nov 29 12:01:04 <Hicks> lol
Nov 29 12:01:06 <mjr> Hicks, /etc/init.d/xserver-nodm restart (it'll spew a lot of stuff on stderr)
Nov 29 12:01:17 <Hicks> oooh
Nov 29 12:01:22 <Hicks> new scriiiipt :D
Nov 29 12:01:32 <Hicks> On the last release i had, there was no such a facility :D
Nov 29 12:01:39 <Hicks> 2007.1 =/
Nov 29 12:01:54 <CM> Heh, ouch, that's old
Nov 29 12:01:59 <Hicks> kinda :D
Nov 29 12:03:07 <Hicks> now the dialer is making this "outgoing call thing"... but the n° i'm calling doesnt rings :D
Nov 29 12:03:45 <josch> Hicks, just use libgsmd-tool for calling - it gives you more messages
Nov 29 12:03:54 <mjr> again you could try, for testing's sake... yeah, do what josch said
Nov 29 12:03:54 <Hicks> hmm
Nov 29 12:04:33 <Hicks> i'm setting up the phone for our commercial who doesnt know what a linux shell is... we need it to work GUI, not in command line
Nov 29 12:04:44 * ScaredyCat points at VIA press release
Nov 29 12:04:44 <mjr> (for me the gui works semireliably for calling and receiving calls)
Nov 29 12:05:14 <mjr> Hicks, well obviously it isn't consumer-ready
Nov 29 12:05:33 <Hicks> yes i know, just teasing :D
Nov 29 12:07:19 <Hicks> i just had restarted gsmd, and xwindow
Nov 29 12:07:31 <Hicks> now i'm going to reproduce the gsm shell steps to see
Nov 29 12:07:42 <Hicks> then make a phone call with libgsmdtool
Nov 29 12:11:10 <Hicks> ok weee now the dialer works :)
Nov 29 12:11:14 <Hicks> thanks people for helping me :)
Nov 29 12:18:41 <kimnotyze> hm.. has somebody tried to compile an IM Client for the oM?
Nov 29 12:18:45 <kW> does anybody knows whether neo1973 will support misfeatures like "stealth SMS" (i.e. receiving, acknowledging the receipt of a SMS message, but not notifying the user of this)?
Nov 29 12:19:27 <kimnotyze> kW: this is not planned in the official release, but additional software may could make itpossible.. even if i dont think that the gsm chip supports this
Nov 29 12:20:13 <kW> kimnotyze: it is more that I definitely _not_ want to have this feature, but nearly every mobile phone "supports" it
Nov 29 12:20:29 <kW> these features are used to track peoples positions without them knowing
Nov 29 12:21:22 <borg_> kW: the gsm module is probably doing this itself
Nov 29 12:21:28 <borg_> we can't do anything against it
Nov 29 12:21:38 <flexd_> kW: You can code the sms application yourself, if you dont want it to notify you then just remove the code that does the notifying ;)
Nov 29 12:22:12 <drath> flexd_: i guess it's more about the GSM not notifying you about having received a sms
Nov 29 12:22:18 <kW> borg_: does it mean the gsm-handling software is not free?
Nov 29 12:22:45 <borg_> the gsm module has its own processor and (non-free) firware
Nov 29 12:23:06 <kW> :-(
Nov 29 12:23:11 <borg_> the gsm handling software is free
Nov 29 12:23:22 <borg_> but who knows what the firmware does before?
Nov 29 12:23:56 <borg_> kW: the gsm firmware can't be free because of legal issues
Nov 29 12:23:58 <mjr> though, mind you, the provider doesn't need to send you SMSes to track your position
Nov 29 12:24:22 <kW> mjr: I know
Nov 29 12:24:28 <ruskie> just id the tower you're connected to :)
Nov 29 12:24:54 <kW> mjr: strange enough, this is actually used to track people
Nov 29 12:25:05 <mjr> and the closed gsm chip of course doesn't have access to anything more accurate than the provider gets
Nov 29 12:25:20 <tonyg> how's the build at the moment? My mokomakefile-driven build is failing at the xorg "render" extension
Nov 29 12:25:28 <tonyg> oddly
Nov 29 12:25:29 <mjr> of course, if the gsm chip has such hidden functionality, it can give out cell tower info to parties other than the operator
Nov 29 12:25:44 <kW> mjr: maybe the reason for doing so is that GSM handsets remain silent for many hours if they do not change base stations
Nov 29 12:26:17 <ruskie> just cary own picocell with you ;)
Nov 29 12:26:27 <kW> borg_: is it that no GSM firmware can be free ever?
Nov 29 12:26:38 <kW> ruskie: hehe :-)
Nov 29 12:26:45 <josch> what to do if kill or killall do not kill my process?
Nov 29 12:26:48 <ruskie> it solves the tracking issues :)
Nov 29 12:27:05 <mjr> kW, it is.
Nov 29 12:27:23 <flexd_> josch: kill -9 <proccess> ?
Nov 29 12:27:24 <kW> mjr: why?
Nov 29 12:27:31 <mjr> governments don't want easily hackable gsm radios to interfere with the networks
Nov 29 12:27:48 <ruskie> hmm will it be hard to completly turn off/disable the gsm chip?
Nov 29 12:27:52 <XorA> goverments dont want users to know when cell encryption is turned off
Nov 29 12:28:02 <XorA> like around brussels during certain meetings :-)
Nov 29 12:28:06 <mjr> GSM relies heavily on the cell tower controlling who sends what when
Nov 29 12:28:08 <kW> but formally, it is not "their networks", is it a particular company's network
Nov 29 12:28:13 <mjr> XorA, that's perhaps a point too...
Nov 29 12:28:32 <mjr> kW, that's why I didn't say "their"
Nov 29 12:29:14 <Crofton|home> governemnt, heck the opeators do not want people screwing up the network :)
Nov 29 12:29:16 <kW> ah, sorry, I misread the "their", although it pretty much matches of what government thinks of what the networks are
Nov 29 12:29:55 <ruskie> Crofton|home, so let them add more failsaves in their hardware... not the consumers..
Nov 29 12:29:59 <mjr> of course, as for the encryption bit, we can do _properly_ encrypted calls on GSM data around those meetings in Brussels anyway to coordinate our... wait
Nov 29 12:29:59 <kW> yes, but there is free speech and all the stuff, what is the exact legal tool to make some particular software like a GSM firmware non-free?
Nov 29 12:30:11 <Mononoke> XorA: cellencryption won't help, remember Greece evasedroping incident
Nov 29 12:30:13 <ruskie> those that want will hack
Nov 29 12:30:34 <Mononoke> *eavesdropping
Nov 29 12:30:37 <b52deb_>  Greece evasedroping incident = ?
Nov 29 12:30:48 <XorA> Mononoke: I have it on good authority that cell encryption seems to go wrong during certain meetings in brussels :-)
Nov 29 12:30:59 <kW> (regarding encryption, one of the first hacks of openmoko should be running speech over openvpn over GSM)
Nov 29 12:31:20 <Crofton|home> heh
Nov 29 12:31:27 <Crofton|home> not as easy as you think
Nov 29 12:31:37 <Mononoke> b52deb_: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/07/11/greek_mobile_wiretap_latest/ google it
Nov 29 12:31:49 <kW> is there access to the binary data which goes over thie wire?
Nov 29 12:31:54 <mjr> kW, I'm not a lawyer, but basically a GSM radio mustn't be easily user modifiable to do non-gsm-spec stuff
Nov 29 12:32:00 <flexd_> kW: there is no wire :P
Nov 29 12:32:12 <kW> flexd_: of course ;-)
Nov 29 12:32:13 <b52deb_> Mononoke, ok thanks
Nov 29 12:32:42 <mjr> kW, we don't have direct access to what gets transmitted, no
Nov 29 12:33:05 <kW> mjr: not in the sense that we can send arbitrary data over voice channels?
Nov 29 12:33:32 <mjr> kW, no, the chip does the GSM encoding. Yes, that means you must do encrypted calls over GSM data connections, which may cost a bit more depending on provider.
Nov 29 12:34:02 <kW> mjr: or one creates a reverse GSM encoding cipher
Nov 29 12:34:40 <mjr> kW, the matter has been talked to death. Apparently there is a codec capable of transmitting was it around 1300kbps over the GSM voice channel.
Nov 29 12:34:46 <kW> but you know what happend to the guy who wanted to create a do-it-yourself ISDN-encrypting toolkit (called "cryptophon")? he was killed, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boris_Floricic
Nov 29 12:34:56 <mjr> eek, not k of course
Nov 29 12:35:06 <kW> mjr: oh, I did not know that this is a "well talked" matter
Nov 29 12:35:10 <mjr> SpeedEvil mentioned that, but couldn't find the source for that either.
Nov 29 12:35:18 <Mononoke> b52deb_: this is better link http://www.bradykiesling.com/vodafone_scandal.htm 
Nov 29 12:35:42 <mjr> not to speak of free implementations, and <2kbps is still a bit low for transmitting voice
Nov 29 12:37:30 <kW> mjr: so what is sent to the GSM chip? 16-bit audio?
Nov 29 12:37:42 <mjr> actually a bit worse, analog audio
Nov 29 12:37:58 <kimnotyze> the gsm chip ist directly connected to the microphone as i know
Nov 29 12:37:59 <kW> uh
Nov 29 12:38:00 <mjr> (digital capability would've apparently come at a premium)
Nov 29 12:38:47 <kW> no chance to implement a voice-mailbox without allowing the operator to charge twice (once for writing, once for reading)?
Nov 29 12:39:02 <mjr> kimnotyze, not _directly_. The GSM chip, as are the I/O devices, are connected to the audio chip. Mixer controls access.
Nov 29 12:39:17 <mjr> kW, you can.
Nov 29 12:39:52 <mjr> the audio chip can route audio to and fro the gsm chip, the SoC, and the I/O devices pretty flexibly
Nov 29 12:39:56 <kW> mjr: by routing GSM-analog-audio between some openmoko sound-chip?
Nov 29 12:40:11 <CIA-14> 03mickey * r3531 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007.2/panel-plugins/openmoko-panel-gsm/src/Makefile.am: openmoko-panel-gsm: remove PIN components from Makefile for now
Nov 29 12:40:12 <kW> ah
Nov 29 12:40:30 <mjr> Yes. There'll be an extra d-a-d step which is a shame, but possible
Nov 29 12:41:00 <kW> mhh, it is really a shame...
Nov 29 12:41:13 <kW> mjr: will there be access to download and upload the GSM chip firmware?
Nov 29 12:41:47 <mjr> (still, a local voicemailbox isn't a true substitute for an operator one, among other things because it can only service one called at a time)
Nov 29 12:41:57 <mjr> (and doesn't obviously work with no reception)
Nov 29 12:42:02 <borg_> kW: as said, it is not allowed to sell phones that have user accessable gsm firmware
Nov 29 12:42:28 <kW> borg_: which rule says so..?
Nov 29 12:42:40 <kW> mjr: (of course ;-))
Nov 29 12:42:44 <mjr> kW, no. Apparently they are studying the possibilities of making it user-upgradable from TI provided firmwares, but at the moment only the OM people can upgrade either
Nov 29 12:43:08 <Mononoke> hmm I think that it would be possible to create some kind of Off-the-Record calling for Openmoko
Nov 29 12:43:29 <kW> mjr: ah, it is the firmware issue noted here... http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Community_Updates
Nov 29 12:43:42 <parkr> hm..i just build the rootfs for x86 on ubuntu, chrooted, started the x-server from within the chroot-env, it connects to xephy but just shows the default grey x screen there, no apps. any clues what might be the reason? :/
Nov 29 12:43:44 <mjr> yes
Nov 29 12:44:04 <kW> mhh, then I hope for user-upgradeability
Nov 29 12:44:26 <Crofton|home> http://comsec.com/crypto.html
Nov 29 12:44:30 <mjr> kW, it would be nice if they can at least pull that off. Count on the firmwares to be digitally signed, if not encrypted, though :]
Nov 29 12:44:37 <Crofton|home> the market for this was criminals :)
Nov 29 12:44:51 <kW> having the feeling if carrying a surveillance device and even paying for it is not a good one...
Nov 29 12:45:03 <mjr> Mononoke, using GSM data calls, as said, encrypted calls aren't a real problem to do
Nov 29 12:45:18 <kW> mjr: then please make them use RC4 or something like that ;-)
Nov 29 12:45:50 <mjr> kW, I'm not going to code that, would require too much committment for my focusing abilities
Nov 29 12:46:04 <kW> Crofton|home: interesting
Nov 29 12:46:13 <mjr> but I'm sure somebody will
Nov 29 12:46:45 <kW> mjr: yes, the less barriers, the better :-)
Nov 29 12:48:10 <mjr> kW, well, since the GSM network needs to know where you are anyway for the phone to, you know, work, it isn't really much more of a surveillance device than it needs to be
Nov 29 12:48:43 <mjr> and of course as we control the mixer from the openmoko side, at least you can be reasonably sure the gsm chip won't be eavesdropping :]
Nov 29 12:49:22 <kW> mjr: there are some additional steps: like installing a "rootkit" remotely (yes, there are devices out there that happily accept remotely initiated firmware upgrade), asking a mobile phone to silently connect, ...
Nov 29 12:49:39 <kW> mjr: yes, that releaves me a bit :-)
Nov 29 12:51:54 <mjr> yeah I know there's stuff like that around
Nov 29 12:52:10 <mjr> just that the whole of the Neo is a bit safer even if the TI chip happened to be one
Nov 29 12:52:29 <kW> because of the topic "surveillance state" becomes bigger in some countries, it looks like providing a "trustable phone" (i.e. with encryption, no remote firmware upgrade, ...) can hit a huge market
Nov 29 12:52:43 <kW> mjr: :-)
Nov 29 12:53:05 <kW> mjr: but it is good to know where the security boundary is
Nov 29 12:53:41 <mjr> (then of course you can ask yourself if you trust the mixer not to have backdoors, which is why I said "reasonably" ;] )
Nov 29 12:54:25 <mjr> yeah
Nov 29 12:54:30 <kW> mjr: hehe, but this form of trust is at risk of being discovered and published (at least as long as publishing is not suppressed...)
Nov 29 12:54:53 <kW> mjr: hehe, but this form of backdoor is at risk of being discovered and published (at least as long as publishing is not suppressed...)
Nov 29 12:55:21 <kW> especially because there are real hardware hackers around and explicitly targeted by openmoko :-)
Nov 29 12:56:09 <mjr> and yes indeed, I do think the Neo is well-positioned to take the niche of an affordable and very (if not completely) transparent cryptophone; there are commercial cryptophones available, but last I checked they cost an arm and a leg and aren't _quite_ as open (even though cryptophone.de did have source available for review, I believe)
Nov 29 12:56:54 <mjr> ...given that Somebody(TM) writes the software, of course
Nov 29 12:57:07 <ruskie> :)
Nov 29 12:57:33 <ruskie> and naturaly it would only work between devices that supported the crypto/decrypto sw
Nov 29 12:57:35 <kW> mjr: I hope that this will happen :-)
Nov 29 12:57:52 <mjr> naturally
Nov 29 12:58:31 <mudyc> they need a data link rather than a voice
Nov 29 12:58:50 <mjr> cryptophone.de has their (gsm-data-using) protocol documented and they welcome other implementors; I have suggested on the community list anyone implementing crypted calls for openmoko to consider supporting that to leverage their installed base
Nov 29 12:59:32 <mjr> their code is sadly non-free so not usable as such
Nov 29 13:00:38 <kW> it would be interesting if the crypto-over-gsm would be opportunistic: i.e. do encryption with both handsets support it, otherwise do not
Nov 29 13:01:13 <mjr> well... you could try to initiate a gsm-data call first for encrypted comms, and then fall back to calling voice
Nov 29 13:01:25 <mjr> that'd add some delay though :I
Nov 29 13:02:14 <mjr> (to all voice calls)
Nov 29 13:02:31 <kW> mhh
Nov 29 13:02:55 <kW> I was more thinking about adding something to the voice channel, like hidden low-bitrate data
Nov 29 13:03:04 <kW> (like data in FM radio)
Nov 29 13:03:12 <kW> to indicate the opportunity
Nov 29 13:03:19 <mudyc> what's the used packing method for voice before encryption in secure call?
Nov 29 13:03:24 <niclone> hi, is there someone here whith the gsm working on a recent sim card from france? (my orange sim card won't work due to bug #666). I would like to know about other gsm providers...
Nov 29 13:03:27 <kW> and then store the receiver's capability of this in an addressbook
Nov 29 13:04:10 <mjr> kW, mmh. That kind of data would perhaps be possible... Then you could make the following calls encrypted
Nov 29 13:04:41 <kW> mjr: mhh, one should agree on an in-band-signalling standard
Nov 29 13:04:42 <mjr> niclone, there was Hicks here from France who just got his SIM working, but sadly he left.
Nov 29 13:04:50 <kW> (or at least publish one)
Nov 29 13:05:31 <niclone> ah
Nov 29 13:05:57 * mjr would be satisifed for starters with a manual addressbook tap for "call this guy encrypted"
Nov 29 13:06:11 <kW> mjr: wouldn't there be a way to flash the GSM chip firmware using JTAG?
Nov 29 13:06:12 <kW> mjr: hehe
Nov 29 13:07:30 <mjr> don't know
Nov 29 13:09:12 <kW> :-)
Nov 29 13:09:20 <mjr> as for that in-band signaling, we talked a bit on that for other uses before; it'd be nice if you could for instance send your GPS coordinates during a call. Even DTMF could be sufficient, though a bit better would probably be doable also.
Nov 29 13:09:52 <kW> mhh
Nov 29 13:11:26 <kW> so a "digital-stream to GSM-voice" translation software would be of high usability...
Nov 29 13:11:30 <mjr> have to keep in mind though that any kind of active monitoring/recording/whatever of the call will eat that much more battery (if you do a straight voice call, the CPU can pretty much be suspended during, since it can just hook the chip to the audio I/O
Nov 29 13:11:47 <kW> mhh
Nov 29 13:11:54 <kW> I see
Nov 29 13:12:01 <mjr> 'course, currently the CPU isn't suspended much anyway, so...
Nov 29 13:12:11 <kW> there is no such thing as a free lunch ;-)
Nov 29 13:14:28 <mjr> yeah, I'm pretty much resigned to charging the neo often, since I want to have much of it on much of the time ;)
Nov 29 13:15:19 <kW> :-)
Nov 29 13:16:25 <mjr> though I can probably live with it sleeping also much of the time, just waking up like once a minute to take a gps fix or something
Nov 29 13:17:17 <mjr> also we'll see if it's feasible to have always on gprs once the other power management is more robust...
Nov 29 13:40:56 <cosmin> hey guys
Nov 29 13:41:28 <cosmin> i got a problem with mokomakefile, could anyone give me a hand?
Nov 29 13:42:03 <abraxa_> If you show your problem in a pastebin, maybe :)
Nov 29 13:44:21 <cosmin> http://celpaste.morb-design.com/pastebin.php?show=m612f9dc2
Nov 29 13:48:43 <abraxa_> Hmm
Nov 29 13:49:43 <cosmin> line 36 says it can't find -lc, but i do have /lib/libc.so.6
Nov 29 13:51:23 <borg_> mh
Nov 29 13:51:33 <Ghiottone|work> maybe you have to look in ${STAGEDIR}/lib ?
Nov 29 13:51:40 <borg_> is it searching for a crosscompiled libc or for the local libc?
Nov 29 13:52:02 <abraxa_> module-init-tools-cross
Nov 29 13:52:11 <abraxa_> So the cross-compiled libc
Nov 29 13:52:22 <borg_> mh
Nov 29 13:52:41 <Ghiottone|work> maybe a make build-package-glibc could force a stage phase again
Nov 29 13:52:50 <borg_> normally oe compiles all dependencies automatically
Nov 29 13:52:55 <abraxa_> cosmin: Do you also have a libc.so symlink to libc.so.6 ?
Nov 29 13:53:24 <Ghiottone|work> borg_ I have found some problems when setting number of threads greater than one
Nov 29 13:53:33 <Ghiottone|work> borg_ regarding missing deps
Nov 29 13:53:57 <cosmin> abraxa_: /lib/libc.so.6 is a link to libc-2.6.1.so, I don't have a libc.so file
Nov 29 13:54:21 <borg_> Ghiottone|work: oh, thats bad
Nov 29 13:54:48 <borg_> luckily i dont have more than one core in my pc and laptop :P
Nov 29 13:54:54 <Ghiottone|work> borg_ i.e. while one thread was building a package, the other thread was still building the other package dependencies. so that failed
Nov 29 13:55:43 <abraxa_> cosmin: Yeah, I was too fast, you're right :)   - I do however have a libc.so, though it's not a symlink... no idea if it could be that or not
Nov 29 13:57:30 <cosmin> also, right before starting any tasks, it says "preferred version 2.5 of glibc not available (for item virtual/arm-angstrom-linux-gnueabi-libc-for-gcc)"
Nov 29 13:57:59 <cosmin> could my libc be too new?
Nov 29 13:59:04 <cosmin> Ghiottone|work: i am building glibc again, will see what happens
Nov 29 13:59:10 <borg_> cosmin: the problem is not with your host pc libc
Nov 29 13:59:28 <borg_> the problem is, with the arm4vt libc
Nov 29 13:59:41 <zedstar> anyone know a quick way to convert/display the NMEA gps data on any map site?
Nov 29 14:00:24 <cjb_ie> gpsbabel ?
Nov 29 14:00:37 <borg_> cosmin: you could try "make rebuild-module-init-tools-cross" first
Nov 29 14:00:52 <borg_> perhaps it will then build the dependencie first
Nov 29 14:00:55 <zedstar> cjb_ie ah yeh thanks that's the one
Nov 29 14:01:46 <cosmin> borg_: is that the right name of the target?
Nov 29 14:01:56 <borg_> mh
Nov 29 14:02:09 <borg_> or "make rebuild-module-init-tools" ?
Nov 29 14:02:14 <borg_> don't know exactly
Nov 29 14:03:45 <cosmin> i did `make rebuild-package-init-tools-cross'
Nov 29 14:04:35 <cosmin> ...and it failed: No providers of build target init-tools-cross (for [])
Nov 29 14:04:37 <Ghiottone|work> make rebuild-package-module-init-tools-cross
Nov 29 14:04:45 <borg_> ah right
Nov 29 14:04:50 <borg_> i forgot the -package
Nov 29 14:04:50 <borg_> sry
Nov 29 14:05:11 <cosmin> oh, so there's both package and module?
Nov 29 14:05:40 <borg_> no the command is "(rebuild|clean|build)-package-NAME
Nov 29 14:06:13 <borg_> where name is the name of the bb file without version number, normally
Nov 29 14:06:27 <cosmin> got it
Nov 29 14:07:42 <cosmin> oh, but some `.la' files failed the sanity test
Nov 29 14:09:00 <Ghiottone|work> cosmin that should be only a warning
Nov 29 14:09:29 <cosmin> but it's displayed as an error
Nov 29 14:10:07 <cosmin> however, 0 tasks failed, so i guess you're right
Nov 29 14:12:09 <borg_> :)
Nov 29 14:15:01 <zedstar> kewl...the GPS works pretty nice even in my pocket in central london
Nov 29 14:19:07 <Ghiottone|work> zedstar what are you testing it with?
Nov 29 14:20:30 <cjb_ie> zedstar: the hammerhead?
Nov 29 14:21:35 <zedstar> yeh the gllin binary
Nov 29 14:22:56 <Ghiottone|work> zedstar what are you using? the new apgs application in openmoko or something else?
Nov 29 14:23:05 <cjb_ie> could've done with a GPS that worked well the other day, garmin gekos were absolutely hopeless in dublin city centre for an osm mapping party, even held out in the open
Nov 29 14:23:58 <zedstar> well they have sorted the legal issues with gps so can use gllin binary
Nov 29 14:24:27 <Hicks> Hello again guys :)
Nov 29 14:24:38 <Hicks> I just wanted to ask, is there a log of interesting IRC chats?
Nov 29 14:24:45 <zedstar> not assisted gps just did a normal gps test
Nov 29 14:25:21 <Ghiottone|work> zedstar yeah I know. I just wanted to know what software you are using to read the output of gllin
Nov 29 14:26:31 <zedstar> ah ok....just cat'ing the raw output not using gpsd etc
Nov 29 14:26:39 <zedstar> so is NMEA sentences
Nov 29 14:27:34 <Ghiottone|work> zedstar ah I see thx
Nov 29 14:27:40 <cjb_ie> gllin binary okay now? _excellent_
Nov 29 14:27:54 <zedstar> cjb_ie: yeh works nicely
Nov 29 14:27:58 <zedstar> ipk to install
Nov 29 14:28:11 <cjb_ie> right, when gta02 comes out i might see if i can get a cheap gta01 to use for openstreetmap
Nov 29 14:28:22 <Ghiottone|work> zedstar where is the ipk?
Nov 29 14:29:15 <zedstar> well not officially annouced but very soon
Nov 29 14:29:21 <zedstar> a few had it for testing
Nov 29 14:29:55 <Ghiottone|work> zedstar oh I though it already went public
Nov 29 14:30:22 <zedstar> ghiottone not yet
Nov 29 14:35:49 <XorA> hrw: to answer your blog question, GTA02 cant play from speaker and headphone at same time
Nov 29 14:37:11 <hrw> thx
Nov 29 14:37:26 <XorA> hrw: the amp switches to one or other on toggling of a GPIO
Nov 29 14:49:16 * cosmin is rebuilding glibc and hopes module-init-tools-cross will work this time
Nov 29 14:49:56 <ScaredyCat> Ghiottone|work: well, it has been public for a while now... just not officially public ;)
Nov 29 14:51:23 <Hicks> Sorry for asking again, but i dont want to miss it if it exists: Is there any website where we can find an archive or logs of interesting subjects discussed on this chan?
Nov 29 14:51:36 <XorA> ~logs
Nov 29 14:51:37 <apt> rumour has it, logs is apt/ibot/infobot/jbot/purl all log daily to http://ibot.rikers.org/<channelname>/ where channelname is html encoded ie: %23debian | lines that start with a space are not shown | some channels have stats at http://ibot.rikers.org/stats/<channelname>.html.gz
Nov 29 14:52:19 <Hicks> weee very nice thanks :)
Nov 29 14:52:45 <Hicks> here is what i need then: http://ibot.rikers.org/%23openmoko/
Nov 29 14:53:06 <Stephmw> of course, you'll have to read em to find the interesting bits
Nov 29 14:53:32 <Hicks> not necessarily, i'll download them for the past 3 monthes and index them
Nov 29 14:53:36 <Hicks> so i can search ;)
Nov 29 14:53:59 <Hicks> i believe "interesting bits" for our company needs are within the past 3 monthes.
Nov 29 14:56:40 * XorA finds google indexes them pretty well :-)
Nov 29 14:57:50 <Ghiottone|work> XorA does google indexes irc logs? since when? if it does, what is the url? I'd like to add them to my OpenMoko search engine
Nov 29 14:58:17 <XorA> Ghiottone|work: search for a sentence you said a couple of days ago and find them
Nov 29 14:58:57 * ScaredyCat searches for " XorA spends far to much time on podcasts" :P
Nov 29 14:59:25 <ScaredyCat> oh no... recursion!
Nov 29 15:09:07 <jadams_> heya
Nov 29 15:09:16 <jadams_> so I can't get my ip masquerading working from the phone now
Nov 29 15:14:17 <Ghiottone|work> XorA I can't find any of my sentences on the web (even one from a couple of weeks ago)
Nov 29 15:15:14 <XorA> Ghiottone|work: odd, every time I have a problem with OE, I google it and find my own complaints about the problem :-)
Nov 29 15:15:50 <Ghiottone|work> XorA lol. could it be that it is #oe that is indexed and not #openmoko then?
Nov 29 15:16:29 <XorA> Ghiottone|work: yeah, but I thought google worked by site, dot by directory
Nov 29 15:16:50 <XorA> maybe openmoko is just not interesting :-)
Nov 29 15:18:24 <Ghiottone|work> could you do a quick search on your last OE problem? just to know what are the indexed addresses?
Nov 29 15:18:56 <ScaredyCat> vv
Nov 29 15:19:50 <zash> a
Nov 29 15:19:58 <jadams_> how do I get my lat/lng from gps at the command line?
Nov 29 15:20:03 <jadams_> oh
Nov 29 15:20:03 <jadams_> nm
Nov 29 15:20:12 <jadams_> NMEA is on port 6000 localhost, yes?
Nov 29 15:20:30 <jadams_> anyway...I just need python on the phone now
Nov 29 15:20:46 <zash> try  telnet localhost 6000
Nov 29 15:21:03 <zash> or something like netcat
Nov 29 15:21:07 <zash> iduno
Nov 29 15:21:27 <josch> jadams_, is there a problem with python?
Nov 29 15:23:01 <jadams_> josch: python not found
Nov 29 15:23:12 <Ghiottone|work> there should be a named pipe in /tmp with nmea output
Nov 29 15:23:15 <jadams_> zash, sorry, I forgot.  We've already got a python script to handle it as well
Nov 29 15:23:51 <jadams_> Ghiottone|work, ls /tmp => gsm.log      ipkg-jW4FP3  pulse-root   tmp
Nov 29 15:24:59 <josch> jadams_, ipkg install python ?
Nov 29 15:25:31 <Ghiottone|work> jadams_ there is when the gps driver is running
Nov 29 15:25:54 <jadams_> josch, yeah, doing that now
Nov 29 15:25:55 <jadams_> thanks though
Nov 29 15:28:07 <jadams_> Ghiottone|work, how do I start it running then?
Nov 29 15:28:14 <jadams_> also, ImportError: No module named socket
Nov 29 15:28:21 <jadams_> python's missing something from the standard library?
Nov 29 15:28:55 <Ghiottone|work> jadams_ do you have the binary?
Nov 29 15:29:14 <jadams_> Ghiottone|work, doubtful
Nov 29 15:29:31 <jadams_> does that mean I don't have any data coming off the GPS chip at all?
Nov 29 15:29:51 <jadams_> (I have a R1 device, and purchased devices have no binary afaik)
Nov 29 15:30:10 <ScaredyCat> then you can't use the gps
Nov 29 15:30:26 <jadams_> oh that blows
Nov 29 15:30:29 <ScaredyCat> you need the wrapper + gllin
Nov 29 15:30:50 <ScaredyCat> then you can install something like openmoko-agpsui2
Nov 29 15:31:29 <mjr> have to install that one
Nov 29 15:31:45 <jadams_> ScaredyCat, thanks.  Also, did you catch the mention of python std libs beign unavailable?
Nov 29 15:31:49 <jadams_> socket, specifically...
Nov 29 15:31:59 <mjr> (I have the test version of the official packaged release that's been mentioned before)
Nov 29 15:32:00 <ScaredyCat> Hrrm...
Nov 29 15:32:24 <jadams_> ScaredyCat, (I only ask because I run your builds)
Nov 29 15:33:50 <jadams_> ScaredyCat, more missing modules in python-core:
Nov 29 15:33:51 <jadams_> >>> help()
Nov 29 15:33:51 <jadams_> Traceback (most recent call last):
Nov 29 15:33:51 <jadams_>   File "<stdin>", line 1, in <module>
Nov 29 15:33:51 <jadams_>   File "/usr/lib/python2.5/site.py", line 346, in __call__
Nov 29 15:33:51 <jadams_>     import pydoc
Nov 29 15:33:53 <jadams_> ImportError: No module named pydoc
Nov 29 15:35:15 <ScaredyCat> well python isn't installed y default...
Nov 29 15:35:21 <jadams_> ScaredyCat, yeah, installed it
Nov 29 15:35:28 <jadams_> but I just saw that other packages seem to provide those modules
Nov 29 15:35:30 <jadams_> python-misc, etc.
Nov 29 15:36:25 <ScaredyCat> wont somehting like python-netclient want socket ?
Nov 29 15:36:45 <jadams_> ScaredyCat, it's fine now
Nov 29 15:36:50 <jadams_> I'm sorry to have wasted your time
Nov 29 15:37:02 <jadams_> josch, did you get my message?
Nov 29 15:37:19 <josch> jadams_, no - are you registered on freenode?
Nov 29 15:37:44 <jadams_> josch: I'm logged on from home and can't ssh in to kick that guy off
Nov 29 15:37:47 <jadams_> so I can't register my real nick
Nov 29 15:37:53 <jadams_> can you assume I said yes?  :)
Nov 29 15:37:58 <josch> kk
Nov 29 15:37:58 <jadams_> I can see your message come in
Nov 29 15:38:00 <jadams_> thanks
Nov 29 15:38:34 <josch> jadams_, np
Nov 29 15:44:52 <Ghiottone|work> XorA ping?
Nov 29 15:44:53 <josch> how is the button you press on a photo camera to take the picture called in english?
Nov 29 15:45:13 <CoreDump> trigger?
Nov 29 15:45:49 <mickeyl> who did the openmoko classic screen locker app?
Nov 29 15:45:56 <josch> CoreDump, really? okay that was simple
Nov 29 15:45:58 <mickeyl> s/app/theme/
Nov 29 15:45:58 <apt> mickeyl meant: who did the openmoko classic screen locker theme?
Nov 29 15:46:19 <XorA> Ghiottone|work: wazzup
Nov 29 15:46:49 <abraxa_> mickeyl: "classic"?
Nov 29 15:47:02 <Ghiottone|work> XorA did you read my line before? I was asking for a link to your latest OE problem rant in the irc channel
Nov 29 15:47:17 <XorA> Ghiottone|work: no idea
Nov 29 15:47:50 <mickeyl> abraxa_: see http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Display_Locker
Nov 29 15:47:55 <mickeyl> i want to use the classic theme, however
Nov 29 15:48:06 <Ghiottone|work> XorA oh. I just wanted to know which urls google is indexing atm. well thanks anyway
Nov 29 15:48:06 <mickeyl> i'd like the background blended with http://oxyx.oxygen-inc.com/wallpapers/matrix.jpg
Nov 29 15:48:17 <mickeyl> just looking if someone can do that for me or if i need to do it myself :)
Nov 29 15:48:25 <borg_> mickeyl: have you seen the display locker bug + patch in bugzilla?
Nov 29 15:48:36 <mickeyl> borg_: i have, but i don't think i like the workaround
Nov 29 15:48:46 <borg_> why?
Nov 29 15:49:09 <mickeyl> because these two additional rotations are kind of disturbing to the user, i think
Nov 29 15:49:29 <borg_> it has to be, that you can unlock the display every time with the same motion
Nov 29 15:49:59 <borg_> you have unlocked the screen before the graphics even pop up
Nov 29 15:50:35 <borg_> but if the display locker can be rotated too, you have to wait for the graphics and lock in which direction you have to drag
Nov 29 15:50:56 <jadams_> alright, gllin's running and agpsui2 is installed, but I just get an awful lot of fails.  Is there anything else I need to do, or is it going to catch satellites eventually?
Nov 29 15:51:27 <mickeyl> borg_: hmm, yeah. let me think some more about it. if i can't come up with a better idea, I'm going to push it this night
Nov 29 15:51:40 <borg_> ok
Nov 29 15:51:59 <jadams_> fixes: 0 good, 28 fail, 28 total
Nov 29 15:54:56 <josch> jadams_, had the same issue - just go out and wait
Nov 29 15:57:55 <jadams_> josch, I'm setting up a chroot for it
Nov 29 15:58:03 <jadams_> josch, or is that old info?
Nov 29 15:58:09 <josch> jadams_, it's old
Nov 29 15:58:13 <jadams_> argh
Nov 29 15:58:19 <jadams_> so this one works just fine?
Nov 29 15:58:25 <josch> jadams_, just have the gllin folder withe the binary and the libs in your home folder
Nov 29 15:58:37 <jadams_> do I just run start_dump?
Nov 29 15:58:42 <jadams_> or do I run gllin?
Nov 29 15:58:45 <josch> no
Nov 29 15:58:50 <josch> just start apgsui
Nov 29 15:58:53 <josch> nothing more
Nov 29 15:59:15 <josch> it sound's to simple doesn't it?
Nov 29 15:59:22 <jadams_> ok
Nov 29 15:59:29 <jadams_> I'll do
Nov 29 15:59:41 <jadams_> chmod +x anything?
Nov 29 16:00:14 <josch> jadams_, the tar should have preserved everything correctly
Nov 29 16:00:20 <jadams_> ahh
Nov 29 16:00:38 <jadams_> I'll check it out in a sec, about to head outside with it  :)
Nov 29 16:01:01 <hozer> does this mean there's a gps binary floating about?
Nov 29 16:02:25 <josch> hozer, do not look at me
Nov 29 16:03:05 * hozer whistles
Nov 29 16:03:40 <josch> hozer, in fact the binary was released on the very first gta01 release unintentionally
Nov 29 16:04:01 <josch> hozer, this is the reason why it "floats around" and some have it
Nov 29 16:04:13 <hozer> heh
Nov 29 16:04:26 <hozer> so what's the 'official' word ;)
Nov 29 16:04:45 <josch> hozer, you need to accept an eula to use it legally
Nov 29 16:04:54 <hozer> that I can do
Nov 29 16:05:06 <hozer> does anyone have a download site with said EULA ? ;)
Nov 29 16:05:08 <josch> hozer, FIC took very long to publish one
Nov 29 16:05:37 <josch> hozer, it was released to a first few devs a few days ago - it took month to get this far
Nov 29 16:05:49 <hozer> cool
Nov 29 16:05:54 <josch> hozer, if you are lucky the eula is out in the next few weeks
Nov 29 16:06:09 <hozer> so can you run it in a non-gui mode so I could just get a position out of it?
Nov 29 16:06:24 <hozer> or log position to a file
Nov 29 16:06:52 <josch> hozer, it outputs nmea data
Nov 29 16:07:42 <jadams_> josch, I went outside but no connections to any satellites ever
Nov 29 16:08:06 <josch> jadams_, do you use agpsui?
Nov 29 16:08:10 <jadams_> we're on the highest point in birmingham right now, so I doubt it's signal strength  :)
Nov 29 16:08:19 <jadams_> josch, openmoko-agpsui2
Nov 29 16:08:29 <jadams_> did as you said, just untarred to /home/root and ran agpsui2
Nov 29 16:08:43 <josch> hrm... strange...
Nov 29 16:08:48 <jadams_> lots of failures
Nov 29 16:09:20 <josch> jadams_, I also encountered this behaviour but I think it was because I was inside
Nov 29 16:09:36 <josch> did some resets and then it worked
Nov 29 16:10:57 <jadams_> josch, fwiw if I cat /tmp/nmeaNP while agpsui is running I get nothing
Nov 29 16:11:12 <abraxa_> jadams_: Did you press "start"?
Nov 29 16:11:37 <jadams_> abraxa_, :) yes
Nov 29 16:11:54 <abraxa_> Try starting gllin on a console then and see what it says
Nov 29 16:14:20 <josch> everytime I try to help people with gllin I fear to get pwnd by some FIC guy here
Nov 29 16:14:42 <LaF0rge> pwnd?
Nov 29 16:14:58 <josch> well slaped by apt for example
Nov 29 16:15:12 <Stephmw> LaF0rge: PC Gamer lexicon
Nov 29 16:15:18 <josch> pwnd = owned
Nov 29 16:17:16 <jadams_> root@fic-gta01:~/gllin$ ./gllin 
Nov 29 16:17:16 <jadams_> -sh: ./gllin: not found
Nov 29 16:17:24 <jadams_> josch, it's there, and set to executable
Nov 29 16:17:25 <josch> jadams_, wut?
Nov 29 16:17:31 <josch> ah... so chmod it
Nov 29 16:17:40 <jadams_> I already did chmod +x it
Nov 29 16:17:48 <josch> wait i will also try
Nov 29 16:17:53 <abraxa__> jadams_: You can't run it directly, it's OABI
Nov 29 16:18:08 <jadams_> abraxa_, ahh, thanks
Nov 29 16:18:37 <josch> jadams_, do you have this start_dump script?
Nov 29 16:18:54 <jadams_> josch, yeah
Nov 29 16:19:01 <jadams_> just ran screen, and have it running in one term
Nov 29 16:19:02 <abraxa__> What does it say when you run it?
Nov 29 16:19:05 <abraxa__> Ahh ok
Nov 29 16:19:19 <jadams_> as suggested will happen, it ends in gllin:  early exit(3) in halInit()/681
Nov 29 16:19:19 <jadams_>  but is still running
Nov 29 16:19:31 <abraxa__> And the pipe works now?
Nov 29 16:19:34 <Ghiottone|work> http://www.linuxdevices.com/articles/AT5920399313.html
Nov 29 16:19:54 <josch> ERROR: No providers of build target openmoko-agpsui2 (for []) <= how is it called?
Nov 29 16:19:54 <LaF0rge> stephmw: the last time I have played a computer game was dott or indy4 (whatever came later)
Nov 29 16:20:35 <jadams_> abraxa_, I assume the pipe is periodically updated?  It hasn't fired yet, but cat doesn't choke either
Nov 29 16:20:51 <jadams_> josch, you added scaredycat's repositories?
Nov 29 16:20:55 <abraxa__> jadams_: Some NMEA should fall out of it every second actually
Nov 29 16:21:16 <josch> jadams_, no I want to compile it myself
Nov 29 16:21:28 <abraxa__> josch: It's not in OE, I just wrote a patch+bb and gave it to ScaredyCat, so you can just install it from his repo
Nov 29 16:21:32 <jadams_> abraxa_, then the pipe isn't working
Nov 29 16:21:41 <josch> abraxa__, ah k
Nov 29 16:21:47 <jadams_> gllin: ../../../src/hal_linux_tt.c:1051: glcb_ExceptionAssert: Assertion `0' failed.
Nov 29 16:22:12 <jadams_> oh
Nov 29 16:22:17 <jadams_> so agpsui was stuck on the pipe
Nov 29 16:22:22 <jadams_> killed it and I can cat the pipe again
Nov 29 16:23:15 <jadams_> anyway, it's nothing but a ton of $GPGGA,235946.99,,,,,00,00,1.0,,M,0.0001999,M,0.0000199,*51
Nov 29 16:23:15 <jadams_> $GPRMC,235946.99,V,,,,,,,120180,,,N*78
Nov 29 16:23:15 <jadams_> $GPGSA,A,1,,,,,,,,,,,,,2.2,1.0,2.0*33
Nov 29 16:23:24 <jadams_> which means no location
Nov 29 16:23:32 <jadams_> but I got the same crap outside as I do inside the building
Nov 29 16:23:32 <abraxa__> Yup
Nov 29 16:23:47 <abraxa__> Some said it takes up to 10 minutes to get a fix
Nov 29 16:23:52 <jadams_> aha
Nov 29 16:23:56 <jadams_> well, it'll stay running then
Nov 29 16:23:59 <Ghiottone|work> jadams try using navit
Nov 29 16:24:02 <abraxa__> Personally, I never got a fix ever but it seems my GPS is broken anyway :)
Nov 29 16:24:18 <Stephmw> LaF0rge: lucky you ;)
Nov 29 16:24:26 <Ghiottone|work> navit can be configured to get nmea data directly from the /tmp file
Nov 29 16:24:43 <jadams_> Ghiottone|work, the tmp file's saying no location anyway
Nov 29 16:24:50 <jadams_> I'll wait until I see an A,2 or A,3 in the NMEA
Nov 29 16:25:22 <Ghiottone|work> jadams_ I got my A,3 after being for a few minutes outside
Nov 29 16:25:39 <Ghiottone|work> jadams_ tryputting it very close to a window
Nov 29 16:26:22 <josch> jadams_, at least gllin works
Nov 29 16:26:30 <jadams_> josch, yeah, thanks again for that
Nov 29 16:26:37 <josch> ^^
Nov 29 16:29:21 <NineX> did someone tried to lunch lbreakout on openmoko?
Nov 29 16:30:00 <josch> NineX, breakout? http://xkcd.org/347/
Nov 29 16:30:41 <NineX> josch: breakout is not stupid game
Nov 29 16:30:42 <NineX> ;P
Nov 29 16:31:08 <josch> NineX, better play wesnoth!
Nov 29 16:31:24 <NineX> josch: someone ported it for openmoko?
Nov 29 16:31:39 <josch> NineX, I did ^^
Nov 29 16:31:49 <edistar> heh
Nov 29 16:31:54 <NineX> josch: so tye to port Uf: Alien Invasion ;P http://ufoai.ninex.info
Nov 29 16:32:06 <NineX> s/tye/try/;
Nov 29 16:33:09 <NineX> josch: wesnoth rulez ;) i like this game - wesnoth was a first game running on my Gebntoo
Nov 29 16:33:23 <NineX> /s/Gebntoo/gentoo/
Nov 29 16:34:11 <NineX> josch: where i can download package with wesnoth for openmoko?
Nov 29 16:34:45 <josch> NineX, Shoragan is including my bb in openembedded but for now I can upload it for you
Nov 29 16:36:30 <josch> NineX, do you want to try? do you have 120MB of space free?
Nov 29 16:37:01 <cdbot2> * * OM Bug 1046 has been created by robophred(AT)gmail.com
Nov 29 16:37:02 <cdbot2> * * Bridges game allows number to connect to itself.
Nov 29 16:37:03 <cdbot2> * * http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=1046
Nov 29 16:37:14 <NineX> josch: i will contact with you when i will empty my sd card
Nov 29 16:46:49 <NineX> josch: please upload package
Nov 29 16:46:58 <NineX> i wil download it and install
Nov 29 16:47:24 <jadams_> josch, I've never played wesnoth.  How would one get ipkg to install stuff to your sd instead of root?
Nov 29 16:48:09 <NineX> hmm
Nov 29 16:48:27 <josch> jadams_, never did install to a custom location - I have my rootfs on sd
Nov 29 16:48:42 <NineX> meybe better is provide tar 
Nov 29 16:48:54 <NineX> josch: why you have rootfs on sd?
Nov 29 16:48:59 <josch> NineX, there is a tar inside the ipk
Nov 29 16:49:24 <josch> NineX, because I don't want to destroy the internal flash by writing too often to it
Nov 29 16:49:45 <NineX> josch: sure but i whana install package on sd card, not on nandflash - i have rootfs on nandflash
Nov 29 16:50:54 <josch> NineX, i understand this but do not know how to do this
Nov 29 16:51:35 <NineX> josch: priv
Nov 29 16:51:47 <Mononoke> oh btw was new release date announced or 25. dec remains?
Nov 29 16:56:47 <kdean06> I've asked here before "what works" and gotten different answers as time progresses... What is it that you guys currently feel OpenMoko lacks?
Nov 29 17:02:34 <jadams_> kdean06, well, right now receiving calls fails for me
Nov 29 17:02:40 <jadams_> I can make calls and sound/mic works
Nov 29 17:03:31 <kdean06> Hrm...
Nov 29 17:03:49 * mjr can pretty much make and receive calls, until gsmd crashes
Nov 29 17:03:58 <mjr> (which doesn't happen very often anymore)
Nov 29 17:04:30 <mjr> I would like that gprs multiplexing, that Writchie was afaik working on
Nov 29 17:05:06 <mjr> hooking up to the net without losing access to phone calls would be ... nice
Nov 29 17:05:53 <kdean06> Hrm..
Nov 29 17:06:02 <abraxa__> kdean06: It lacks paid developers to make faster progress :)
Nov 29 17:07:29 <kdean06> I basically use my phone to make and recieve calls, store my address book and send text messages. Anything beyond that is "extra" for me. I'm not a programmer by very interested in learning, and already a Free Software zealot. I really want a Moko (my current phone is dead) but I also need that "basic" functionality before the hardware is worth the investment. Any chance that that is reasonable "soon"?
Nov 29 17:08:02 <mjr> well, they are working on text messaging ui afaik :]
Nov 29 17:08:34 <josch> kdean06, hrm.... no
Nov 29 17:08:44 <mjr> but reliably, well...
Nov 29 17:08:45 <cjb_ie> what's "soon" ?
Nov 29 17:08:57 <edistar> kdean06: maybe in 4/5 month..
Nov 29 17:09:06 * mjr would also probably start by waiting for GTA02 at this point, but YMMV
Nov 29 17:10:05 <kdean06> I'm planning on waiting for GTA02 but I have to say with all due respect I've not got great faith in "expected" dates... I believe GTA01 was pushed back quite a bit (though it's possible the bug in the process have been fixed too)
Nov 29 17:10:09 * mjr _is_ using his GTA-01 has his primary phone, but I don't have much in the way of reliability requirements, and that's mostly because my old phone died on me as well, and couldn't be arsed to buy a new one at this point
Nov 29 17:10:21 <mjr> yes it was
Nov 29 17:11:14 <mjr> and it makes it easier for me to say "wait" that I already got the 01 :]
Nov 29 17:11:51 <mjr> anyway, I _would_ hazard that it'd be somewhat usable at 02 launch for the hc geek
Nov 29 17:12:25 <kdean06> Yeah. I'm torn. :) Moko is a helluva geeky "toy" that can also pass muster with my wife as "needed".
Nov 29 17:12:57 <abraxa_> kdean06: You can go for a GTA02. By the time it'll be available the basic functionality will be stable.
Nov 29 17:13:01 <jadams_> I didn't realize the gprs multiplexing wasn't working yet
Nov 29 17:13:12 <jadams_> I have to have phone + internet simultaneously
Nov 29 17:13:20 <mjr> jadams_, the issue was afaik rather "existing" than "working" ;P
Nov 29 17:13:21 <josch> NineX, wesnoth for everyone!! http://rabenfrost.net/openmoko/wesnoth/
Nov 29 17:13:26 <kdean06> edistar, Your 4/5 month estimate, was that including semi-stable SMS or just make/receive calls?
Nov 29 17:13:46 <edistar> kdean06: that was including SMS
Nov 29 17:13:49 <kdean06> Wesnoth on your phone...
Nov 29 17:13:52 <kdean06> Wow. :)
Nov 29 17:13:56 <kdean06> +1
Nov 29 17:14:07 <jadams_> mjr, fair  :)
Nov 29 17:14:12 <NineX> josch: thx
Nov 29 17:14:16 <abraxa_> edistar: How do you figure 4/5 months? The SMS app is making significant progress.
Nov 29 17:14:23 <NineX> josch++
Nov 29 17:14:27 <NineX> .ws 12
Nov 29 17:14:58 <edistar> abraxa_: it needs to be stable, and I think bugs will only be found once more people (ie when the GTA will be sold) get to use it.. and then it'll take time to debug etc
Nov 29 17:15:01 <mjr> yeah, if we're talking _semi_-stable, as kdean06 said, I would expect us to be there this year :]
Nov 29 17:15:23 <abraxa_> edistar: Yes, but GTA01 owners will do just that.
Nov 29 17:15:35 <edistar> abraxa_: ah, didn't think of that :P
Nov 29 17:15:35 <Ghiottone|work> jadams_ to install ipkgs on the SD card you have to edit /etc/ipkg.conf and add a "card" destination. then install the ipkg-utils package
Nov 29 17:15:45 <edistar> abraxa_: do you think the sms app will be stable soon?
Nov 29 17:15:50 <Ghiottone|work> jadams_ after that you can install -d card <packagename>
Nov 29 17:16:00 <kdean06> I can handle bugs, it's an area of "development" I'm comfortable dealing with until I get more coding experience.
Nov 29 17:16:02 <abraxa_> edistar: I personally would say that it'll be within a month
Nov 29 17:16:15 <mjr> abraxa_, so "this year" then :)
Nov 29 17:16:30 <abraxa_> mjr: From the software side, yeah
Nov 29 17:16:48 <abraxa_> Just GTA02 won't be around by then
Nov 29 17:16:48 <mjr> indeed, was just pointing out our estimates to pretty much match
Nov 29 17:16:48 <jadams_> Ghiottone|work, awesome, thanks
Nov 29 17:17:27 <kdean06> abraxa_, The topic says not to ask about GTA02, so let me phrase this differntly so as to not break the rules. :) Do you think basic functionality will exist on GTA01 prior to GTA02 launch? And if you give semi-stable functionality a rate of "this year" do you think that GTA02 will realistically not happen this year?
Nov 29 17:17:46 <mjr> I think he already answered that
Nov 29 17:17:57 <kdean06> I was typing while he did. :P I still look down. :)
Nov 29 17:18:00 <mjr> software "within month", GTA02 "not around by then"; that'd be my estimate too
Nov 29 17:18:06 <kdean06> Okay.
Nov 29 17:18:06 <abraxa_> Yup :)
Nov 29 17:18:08 <kdean06> Hrm..
Nov 29 17:18:31 <jadams_> josch, you have the wesnoth ipkg somewhere?
Nov 29 17:18:33 <mjr> I wouldn't guestimate GTA02 to necessarily take very long after that, but that's just guessing for me...
Nov 29 17:18:41 <jadams_> I'll install it on the sd now that Ghiottone|work helped with that
Nov 29 17:18:51 <josch> jadams_, http://rabenfrost.net/openmoko/wesnoth/
Nov 29 17:19:18 <josch> jadams_, there are also ipks for sdl
Nov 29 17:20:14 <jadams_> josch, thanks, I'll get to it :)
Nov 29 17:20:34 <jadams_> still no GPS goodness, but it found five satellites.  I'll take it driving later to see if it does better
Nov 29 17:29:06 <jadams_> josch, does wesnoth add a menu entry?
Nov 29 17:29:46 <CIA-14> 03mickey * r3532 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007.2/daemons/neod/ (6 files in 2 dirs): 
Nov 29 17:29:46 <CIA-14> neod:
Nov 29 17:29:46 <CIA-14>  * ensure correct rotation before showing the unlock window (closes #1033)
Nov 29 17:29:46 <CIA-14>  * change theme
Nov 29 17:29:54 <josch> jadams_, yes it does
Nov 29 17:30:04 <jadams_> josch, awesome, installing it right now
Nov 29 17:30:28 <josch> jadams_, do not forget to swap orientation before playing or it will default to 320x240
Nov 29 17:30:34 <jadams_> kk
Nov 29 17:31:06 <josch> I played four games only with touchscreen - it's awesome
Nov 29 17:31:18 <josch> but you have to wait a lot on loading
Nov 29 17:31:29 <josch> this will be fixed in later wesnoth versions
Nov 29 17:32:12 <torpor> yo
Nov 29 17:33:01 <torpor> josch: why is the load so slow?
Nov 29 17:33:17 <josch> the first time load is hell of slow
Nov 29 17:33:25 <josch> will get faster on subsequrent loads
Nov 29 17:33:39 <josch> and will run like hell with a special switch enabled
Nov 29 17:34:06 <CM> josch: Does it install in /media/card or something?
Nov 29 17:34:07 <josch> --validcache
Nov 29 17:34:14 <CM> Also, did you get the sound working? :)
Nov 29 17:34:16 <josch> CM, not by default
Nov 29 17:34:25 <josch> CM, yeah sound works now!
Nov 29 17:34:26 <CM> Ok, but 87.4 mb?
Nov 29 17:34:40 <josch> CM, actually more than that 88MB compressed
Nov 29 17:34:47 <CM> hehe, ok
Nov 29 17:35:17 <torpor> can someone say why a daemon has .png's in it ..
Nov 29 17:35:25 <kristian-m> re
Nov 29 17:35:31 <josch> 126MB installed
Nov 29 17:36:47 <torpor> U    trunk/src/target/OM-2007.2/daemons/neod/data/north.png
Nov 29 17:36:57 <torpor> please don't tell me neod has a gui..
Nov 29 17:37:05 <CM> torpor: It's for the locking
Nov 29 17:37:13 <CM> borg_'s screen lock ;)
Nov 29 17:37:15 <torpor> meh
Nov 29 17:37:19 <torpor> in a daemon
Nov 29 17:37:30 <torpor> that is busted.  
Nov 29 17:37:47 <abraxa_> torpor: neod is a collection of hacks and will go when the replacements are there - so nothing to worry about really
Nov 29 17:38:10 <torpor> "will go" 'replacements' = LOZL
Nov 29 17:38:14 <torpor> sure sure.
Nov 29 17:38:17 <CM> Hehe
Nov 29 17:38:31 <torpor> don't worry, i think its cute that nobody wants to do things properly the first time.
Nov 29 17:38:31 * CM senses some slight pessimism in the channel
Nov 29 17:39:11 <abraxa_> It's not that, torpor.
Nov 29 17:39:17 <torpor> c'mon, it is.
Nov 29 17:39:25 <CM> torpor: I guess a lot of things have been done in a hurry, and once everyone involved knows more about problems it's easier to make someting "right"
Nov 29 17:39:32 <torpor> why can't neod just be a daemon, and someone write a nice mokogui to communicate to it?
Nov 29 17:39:53 <torpor> whatever, i'm not complaining, like i said: its cute.
Nov 29 17:40:00 <CM> Hehe
Nov 29 17:40:02 <torpor> please take the voice out of your head.
Nov 29 17:40:36 <tonyg> Trouble in compiling xrender: http://celpaste.morb-design.com/pastebin.php?show=d203cf41d
Nov 29 17:41:21 <CM> tonyg: I compiled it a few hours ago, but I can try a sync and rebuild to see if I get the same problem
Nov 29 17:42:03 <tonyg> CM, that'd be cool, thanks
Nov 29 17:42:20 <tonyg> I'm using mokomakefile. I ran "make update-makefile && make setup update openmoko-devel-image" this morning
Nov 29 17:42:23 <tonyg> it's been broken since
Nov 29 17:42:38 <tonyg> I've been trying "make update openmoko-devel-image" sporadically, no changes yet
Nov 29 17:42:56 <torpor> i did that this morning too and it was borked so i swapped back to the older from yesterday way of doing things and finished a clean build.
Nov 29 17:43:27 <tonyg> is that the older way of doing things, or an older snapshot of the tree?
Nov 29 17:44:05 <torpor> you see this morning i tried to swap monotone servers and all that (per the msg to the list) and that turned out to be borked, so i went back to my mokomakefile from yesterday and tis all smooth .. 
Nov 29 17:44:08 <tonyg> (btw the 21 Nov rootfs on buildhost.openmoko.org is broken, start-stop-daemon is a directory (!))
Nov 29 17:44:15 <torpor> but i just did a sync and am doing a build so i'll let you know how it goes .. 
Nov 29 17:44:18 <tonyg> aha, I see
Nov 29 17:44:28 <tonyg> thank you
Nov 29 17:44:52 <torpor> can build my app just fine though, doing a 'make all' as well just for grins (i like to watch)
Nov 29 17:45:10 <tonyg> :)
Nov 29 17:49:49 <NineX> http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Booting_from_SD <- one information is missing (fstab need to be changed)
Nov 29 17:51:58 <torpor> NineX: true
Nov 29 17:52:03 <torpor> <--booting from SD here.
Nov 29 17:52:58 <NineX> i will boot from sd too there is batter to destroy sd card than nand flash - sd card can be replaced, but i dont have special hardware to replace nandflash
Nov 29 17:53:25 <NineX> /s/dont/don't/
Nov 29 17:54:07 <CM> tonyg: Btw, if you updated your makefile this morning some things might be broken. Has been fixed since, try a make update-makefile;make update
Nov 29 17:54:21 <CM> It's still building for me..
Nov 29 17:56:06 <PBeck> hi
Nov 29 17:56:17 <mjr> beep
Nov 29 17:56:44 <mjr> hmm, now that I can get gps traces, wonder how that osm participation went
Nov 29 17:58:03 <NineX> so gps is workin on open moko (neo) or not?
Nov 29 17:59:34 <hon> Does openmoko use X or it's too heavy?
Nov 29 17:59:35 <torpor> its working
Nov 29 17:59:39 <mjr> hon, yes
Nov 29 17:59:41 <mjr> (uses)
Nov 29 17:59:44 <torpor> but there's still work to be done to make it "Just Work"
Nov 29 18:00:09 <hon> mjr: the regular X (e.g. 7.3) or its significantly lighter?
Nov 29 18:00:27 <mjr> NineX, it works. The gllin package is in limited testing, hopefully will be available to all gta01 users soon
Nov 29 18:00:36 <mjr> hon, kdrive
Nov 29 18:00:59 <NineX> mjr: i hope so
Nov 29 18:02:06 <xcasex> so err.. what would the transit time for a ups package to eu be?
Nov 29 18:02:43 <hon> mjr: with linux framebuffer as output?
Nov 29 18:03:30 <mjr> hon, yes
Nov 29 18:03:39 <mjr> for gta02 there will be some acceleration support
Nov 29 18:03:50 <hon> mjr: thanks a lot
Nov 29 18:04:02 <mjr> not known what or how much, depends what they have time to do
Nov 29 18:04:08 <hon> mjr: does linux framebuffer allow acceleration?
Nov 29 18:04:53 <mjr> I'm not aware of how they're doing the acceleration bits
Nov 29 18:05:06 <mjr> raster would probably know
Nov 29 18:05:26 <mjr> all that
Nov 29 18:05:34 <abraxa_> hon: The framebuffer doesn't, no - an X driver however can (and will)
Nov 29 18:05:36 <anrp> gllin, Real Soon Now(tm)
Nov 29 18:05:45 <mjr> 's pretty internal for now, though, what with no applicable hardware outside OM
Nov 29 18:05:48 <hon> thanks
Nov 29 18:06:03 <anrp> the gta01 display drive is really dumb
Nov 29 18:06:04 <kdean06> lol
Nov 29 18:06:17 <mjr> yes, the 01 is
Nov 29 18:06:18 <anrp> you could use gpdma to accelerate a little bit in very limited circumstances .. maybe ..
Nov 29 18:06:50 <NineX> hm someone tried to turn on gta01 without battery only connected into computer via usb?
Nov 29 18:07:00 <mjr> NineX, won't work
Nov 29 18:07:06 <anrp> NineX: that's a way to get the hardware to emit a ... very sad sounding whine
Nov 29 18:07:29 <NineX> why?
Nov 29 18:07:37 <torpor> i love that sound.
Nov 29 18:08:00 <anrp> its not designed to run with no battery
Nov 29 18:08:16 <anrp> so its set up such that usb charges the battery, and all the drains are connected to the battery
Nov 29 18:08:27 <NineX> anrp: and is not designed to work for longer time without computer /charger
Nov 29 18:08:29 <anrp> without the battery (read: huge capacitor) all sorts of strange things happen
Nov 29 18:09:24 <NineX> i thinkink about tre charge openmoko with charger from my motorolla cellphone
Nov 29 18:10:12 <anrp> that might work .. i don't know the details of the motorola connector
Nov 29 18:10:41 <NineX> anrp: usb
Nov 29 18:10:58 <roh> the motorola charger will only get you 100mA charging since it does not speak usb and we do not (yet) measure the resistor on th eid-pin (the 5th pin on the mini-usb)
Nov 29 18:14:16 <mjr> see http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973_USB_host bottom on forcing Neo into fast charge mode
Nov 29 18:15:34 <tonyg> CM, thanks for the tip, I'm trying that now
Nov 29 18:16:06 <CM> tonyg: My build just finished, no error
Nov 29 18:16:17 <tonyg> ok. hopefully this update-makefile will work.
Nov 29 18:16:35 <hon> I am interested in multiple-user-input interactions (multi-touch interation being an obvious example). Which parts of the system should I study? (X server? gtk+ libs? kernel modules?)
Nov 29 18:17:01 <tonyg> svn: Can't connect to host 'svn.berlios.de': Connection refused
Nov 29 18:17:12 <anrp> the resistive touch screen's going to present a reasonably large problem to reading multiple pressure points ..
Nov 29 18:18:10 <tonyg> retrying now :)
Nov 29 18:18:48 <mjr> Yeah; the screen isn't multitouch. You can try to kludge around that by detecting what looks like a fast move and extrapolating, but... dirty
Nov 29 18:18:48 <tonyg> still connection refused...
Nov 29 18:20:29 <tonyg> bbl.
Nov 29 18:25:30 <kdean06> I'm using one of the qemu-neo1973 images (built a few minutes ago) and the keypads are wonky. Certain keypresses register, some don't and some actually delete the character. Is this code issues or emulation problems?
Nov 29 18:26:01 <kdean06> The dialer and calculator, for instance.
Nov 29 18:26:08 <josch> kdean06, never had this issue on my real neo
Nov 29 18:26:20 <kdean06> And the keypresses register as fast as you hit them?
Nov 29 18:26:27 <josch> nearly
Nov 29 18:26:32 <kdean06> Okay, cool. :)
Nov 29 18:39:19 <torpor> build finished here too, nice and clean 
Nov 29 18:39:40 <torpor> kdean06: calibrate your screen.
Nov 29 18:39:46 <torpor> i think people forget to do that.
Nov 29 18:40:00 <Ebbe> torpor: How do you calibrate it?
Nov 29 18:41:47 <kdean06> toer_, IS this the most relevant document? http://onlinedev.blogspot.com/2007/08/calibrating-openmoko-v20072.html
Nov 29 18:41:56 <kdean06> Sorry, torpor ^
Nov 29 18:43:18 <kdean06> How do I run the script? I don't seem to have a terminal.
Nov 29 18:45:30 <SpeedEvil> you can't ssh into the phone kde?
Nov 29 18:45:52 <Mononoke> http://www.theinquirer.net/gb/inquirer/news/2007/11/28/sony-violating-gpl 
Nov 29 18:46:05 <Mononoke> ow, wrong channel
Nov 29 18:46:29 <kdean06> I hadn't thought about that. :P
Nov 29 18:46:51 <hon> is there somewhere I can get Mike's interview on linux link tech show, hopefully in text?
Nov 29 18:47:01 <kdean06> Crap... How do I find out the IP address of this thing. :P
Nov 29 18:47:10 <torpor> kdean06: ssh to phone, fix it from there.
Nov 29 18:50:52 <kdean06> Oh! I found the terminal. :P Neat.
Nov 29 19:03:52 <kdean06> This is very cool. Much more works right now than I got the impression from discussion...
Nov 29 19:04:11 <webjames> kdean06, have you got a phone? 
Nov 29 19:04:14 <kdean06> No.
Nov 29 19:04:20 <webjames> qemu?
Nov 29 19:04:22 <kdean06> I'm using a qemu image
Nov 29 19:05:04 <webjames> have you managed to network it?
Nov 29 19:05:18 <kdean06> Qemu networking is living proof that IPv6 is crucial. 
Nov 29 19:05:22 <kdean06> So no. :P
Nov 29 19:05:39 <webjames> what do you mean?
Nov 29 19:06:11 <kdean06> Wait... Perhaps we're not speaking the same language. :P
Nov 29 19:06:21 <kdean06> What do you mean by "network it" ?
Nov 29 19:07:21 <blinx> thomasg: ping
Nov 29 19:09:50 <kdean06> Oh... Okay, I'm seeing a few different ways to netowrking it... No, I've not done that.
Nov 29 19:10:06 <loufoque> does the Neo 1973 CPU have an MMU?
Nov 29 19:10:28 <thomasg> blinx: pong
Nov 29 19:10:28 <mjr> yes
Nov 29 19:10:52 <kdean06> Okay... I was hesitant to hold of on the neo for GTA02... Does anyone who has a GTA01 think there are features in GTA02 you'd miss? 
Nov 29 19:10:57 <SpeedEvil> wifi
Nov 29 19:10:59 <SpeedEvil> basically
Nov 29 19:12:16 <roh> hm.. where are the metalab-guys ;)
Nov 29 19:14:01 <drath> twice the mhz certainly wont hurt
Nov 29 19:14:09 <mjr> indeed it won't
Nov 29 19:14:34 <drath> same with the gfx accelerator
Nov 29 19:15:00 <kdean06> You guys have collectively hit every difference. :P
Nov 29 19:15:04 <mjr> since I do plan on using mine for playing the occasional video
Nov 29 19:15:05 <CM> roh: Quick question, if I have the debug board and neo connected with the jtag, is it just to plug in the usb into the board?
Nov 29 19:15:10 <kdean06> So I guess waiting makes the most sense... Damn. :(
Nov 29 19:15:11 <mjr> kdean06, not yet :]
Nov 29 19:15:54 <kdean06> I'll stick to Qemu for now then and play around with stuff, it's probably good practice anyway. :)
Nov 29 19:16:25 <drath> CM: you have to power the phone, too
Nov 29 19:17:07 <CM> ok
Nov 29 19:17:11 * CM sighs..
Nov 29 19:17:27 <CM> Damn, don't have ftdi_sio compiled for my kernel..
Nov 29 19:18:17 <roh> CM just usb? the neo needs a battery and usb also
Nov 29 19:18:35 <CM> Ok :)
Nov 29 19:18:39 <roh> the debugboard does usb to jtag and serial. it also has a usb-hub
Nov 29 19:18:58 <roh> but the neo does not get fed via that line, so it needs the battery and power as usual
Nov 29 19:19:12 <CM> Can it get the power from the debugboard hub?
Nov 29 19:19:38 <roh> it should, but that depends on the behaviour of software
Nov 29 19:19:54 <CM> Ok. Need to recompile my kernel first anyway.. :-/
Nov 29 19:19:57 <drath> CM: you don't need ftdi_sio for jtag, only for serial
Nov 29 19:20:03 <CM> Ah, ok
Nov 29 19:20:04 <mmontour> CM: I had better luck plugging the Neo directly into my PC, not using the debug-board hub
Nov 29 19:20:08 <roh> meaning: i never use that hub, i alsways connect the neo and the debugboard to different usbpoerts on my notebook (one left, one right)
Nov 29 19:20:20 <CM> Ok, thanks for the hints
Nov 29 19:20:31 <roh> especially the debugboard v2 has power-problems (which was the biggest reason for V3)
Nov 29 19:20:56 <roh> the caps are too big -> too much current and reset-fail
Nov 29 19:21:42 * CM gets some tape for the battery
Nov 29 19:22:14 <roh> tape?
Nov 29 19:22:52 <roh> i let the board in the case, just pull the front cover away and pull the gps antenna out, then connect the debugboard. that way the battery can still be used as normal
Nov 29 19:23:12 <CM> I couldn't resist picking it apart completely.. ;)
Nov 29 19:23:20 <CM> Guess I can put the board back though :-)
Nov 29 19:33:32 <torpor> yo
Nov 29 19:34:04 <anrp> D:?
Nov 29 19:34:08 * CM does laundry instead :(
Nov 29 19:59:20 <CIA-14> 03sameo * r3533 10/developers/sameo/patches/ar6k-atheros/ (6 files): 
Nov 29 19:59:20 <CIA-14> ar6k-atheros: First usable 802.11 driver for GTA02
Nov 29 19:59:20 <CIA-14> We can now associate, scan, and send/receive TCP/IP frames.
Nov 29 20:00:22 <anrp> D:!
Nov 29 20:00:49 <abraxa_> sameo: Now is that good news or what? =)
Nov 29 20:01:10 <mjr> yay
Nov 29 20:01:31 <CM> ~cheer
Nov 29 20:01:31 <apt> shift to the left, unshift to the right, push down, pop up, byte byte byte.
Nov 29 20:01:33 <borg_> associate + scan + send/receive sounds pretty good
Nov 29 20:01:38 <sameo> abraxa_: see http://pastebin.com/d10191a01
Nov 29 20:01:55 <borg_> :))
Nov 29 20:01:59 <abraxa_> Good job, dude!
Nov 29 20:02:08 * abraxa_ ish happeh
Nov 29 20:02:39 <sameo> it's slow as hell, but I'll work on that too.
Nov 29 20:03:16 <abraxa_> That's fine, at least GTA02 can be properly tested for design flaws now, meaning that it's inching closer and closer :)
Nov 29 20:03:34 <sameo> abraxa_: yeah, that was the main goal.
Nov 29 20:03:49 * edistar is happy :)
Nov 29 20:08:30 <ewon> huzzah
Nov 29 20:36:30 <edistar> NineX: you had this website with funny pics on it... what was the link again?
Nov 29 20:38:00 <mjr> righto, Michael just announced the gllin package to the wider audience of the community list
Nov 29 20:38:08 <mjr> eexcellent
Nov 29 20:38:24 <mjr> now, get developing those GPS apps!
Nov 29 20:39:48 <edistar> navit etc... ;)
Nov 29 20:40:16 <Obri> cool
Nov 29 20:41:28 <roh> everyone seated firmly?
Nov 29 20:41:40 <anrp> finally we can be legal
Nov 29 20:41:44 <anrp> ...
Nov 29 20:41:45 <josch> wooooo!!!
Nov 29 20:42:06 <josch> url or it didn't happen!
Nov 29 20:42:12 <balrog-kun> now get REing the protocol!
Nov 29 20:42:17 <Obri> http://3rdparty.downloads.openmoko.org
Nov 29 20:42:18 <edistar> how can I tell apt to give a round of beer?
Nov 29 20:42:26 <roh> http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2007-November/011916.html
Nov 29 20:42:48 <balrog-kun> ~beer
Nov 29 20:42:48 * apt has disconnected (Read error: 99 (Connection reset by beer))
Nov 29 20:42:51 <josch> what happens if I just visit http://3rdparty.downloads.openmoko.org/gllin/download/?Accept=Accept ?
Nov 29 20:42:56 <balrog-kun> that's not it :P
Nov 29 20:43:01 <edistar> balrog-kun: well...
Nov 29 20:43:06 <edistar> ~beer seems to not work
Nov 29 20:43:07 * apt pours a quart of Guinness for seems to not work
Nov 29 20:43:10 <edistar> heh
Nov 29 20:43:13 <edistar> ~beer for all!
Nov 29 20:43:14 * apt pulls out a excellent Guinness for for all!
Nov 29 20:43:20 <edistar> ~beer all!
Nov 29 20:43:21 * apt pours a litre of Franziskaner Hefeweizen for all!
Nov 29 20:43:27 <edistar> hehe, thats good beer :)
Nov 29 20:43:36 <josch> yeah!! party!
Nov 29 20:44:55 <Mononoke> stay away from me with Guinness :S
Nov 29 20:45:01 <mjr> ok, STOP:ing and CONT:ing gllin seems to work (though I'm not in a position to take a fix now)
Nov 29 20:46:26 <mmontour> ~beer OpenMoko for finally releasing this
Nov 29 20:46:27 * apt pours a quart of Dogfishhead 90min IPA for OpenMoko for finally releasing this
Nov 29 20:46:37 <mmontour> ~fish the lawyers for making it take so long
Nov 29 20:46:38 * apt slaps the lawyers for making it take so long around with a large trout
Nov 29 20:46:42 <abraxa_> lol
Nov 29 20:46:47 <josch> :-D
Nov 29 20:46:53 <ewon> shit, they released gllin?
Nov 29 20:47:00 <josch> hell yeah!
Nov 29 20:47:08 <josch> http://3rdparty.downloads.openmoko.org/gllin/download/?Accept=Accept
Nov 29 20:47:30 <josch> ah
Nov 29 20:47:35 <josch> sry for posting this url
Nov 29 20:47:45 <josch> it's obviously wrong
Nov 29 20:47:54 <anrp> what if I keep using the quasi-released version? what then? :o
Nov 29 20:47:56 <josch> this is the right one: http://3rdparty.downloads.openmoko.org/gllin/download/gllin_1.0+r350-r0_fic-gta01.ipk
Nov 29 20:48:06 <kdean06> mmm beer.
Nov 29 20:50:21 <anrp> lol, free chroot fs included
Nov 29 20:52:16 <anrp> ... binary is exactly the same as the one released "accidentally" way back in the beginning
Nov 29 20:52:22 <anrp> not eabi :/
Nov 29 20:53:00 <alphaone> anrp: But with wrapper around it...
Nov 29 20:53:21 <anrp> yay bash D:
Nov 29 20:53:49 <kdean06> Dare I ask why this is signifigant?
Nov 29 20:53:51 <anrp> cat /tmp/nmeaNP |gzip >> /home/root/gps.gz &
Nov 29 20:53:53 <anrp> ??
Nov 29 20:53:57 <anrp> that's kind of strange
Nov 29 20:54:10 <anrp> zomg, om is trying to spy on us D:
Nov 29 20:54:28 <anrp> kdean06: its significant because the hardware has been otherwise useless without this bit o' software
Nov 29 20:54:32 <anrp> gps hardware
Nov 29 20:54:47 <kdean06> Oh, this is the gps thingy... 
Nov 29 20:54:53 <kdean06> Damn US laws. 
Nov 29 20:55:08 <anrp> they'd rather stay out of potential jail :s
Nov 29 20:55:09 <SpeedEvil> It's nothing to so with US laws.
Nov 29 20:55:24 <kdean06> I understand totally.
Nov 29 20:55:28 <SpeedEvil> It's to do with someone at openmoko/FIC not pushing hard enough for it to happen.
Nov 29 20:55:32 <kdean06> SpeedEvil, Seperate issues?
Nov 29 20:55:37 <anrp> mm
Nov 29 20:55:40 <kdean06> Ah.
Nov 29 20:55:50 <SpeedEvil> it's a licensing issue for releasing the GPS binary
Nov 29 20:56:10 <kdean06> Right, because the source can't be released, no?
Nov 29 20:56:16 <SpeedEvil> no
Nov 29 20:56:27 <anrp> that's true but peripheral to the issue
Nov 29 20:56:29 <SpeedEvil> because the lawyers won't sign off on releasing the binary
Nov 29 20:56:31 <anrp> it wasn't om's to begin with
Nov 29 20:56:39 <SpeedEvil> there is as far as we understand it no hop of getting source.
Nov 29 20:57:07 <SpeedEvil> (well, pay me and several others $fewK to develop it, and you might, but other than that, ...)
Nov 29 20:57:07 <kdean06> I vagely recall reading that the gps wasn't going to be fully Free Software anyway, so I kind of wrote it off mentally.
Nov 29 20:57:37 <SpeedEvil> practically - you can put it in a chroot only allowed to access the GPS hardware if you're feeling paranoid
Nov 29 20:58:04 <SpeedEvil> so all it can do is deliver GPS positions, and not do anything else.
Nov 29 20:59:47 <kdean06> My insistance on Free Software is a little different than that, but that does seem like a smart thing to do. :P
Nov 29 21:00:11 <johnathon11> hello, i have some newbi questions
Nov 29 21:00:37 <edistar> johnathon11: just ask :
Nov 29 21:00:37 <edistar> :)
Nov 29 21:00:54 <johnathon11> i am having trouble compiling dfu-util...any help  :)
Nov 29 21:02:26 <kdean06> Can you be a bit more specific? perhaps error messages or symptoms?
Nov 29 21:21:34 <anrp> ... silence ...
Nov 29 21:26:27 <moko-bunny> w00t! another happily functioning GPS here :)
Nov 29 21:26:43 <roh> anrp everybody hacking
Nov 29 21:26:45 <roh> ;)
Nov 29 21:27:23 <moko-bunny> did someone have the gps gui ipk somewhere or should I be patient?
Nov 29 21:27:48 <mjr> hmm, it'd be good if the openmoko platform provided a generic point of interest api in addition to raw locations through gpsd or something
Nov 29 21:28:13 <josch> moko-bunny, ScaredyCat repos
Nov 29 21:28:30 <mjr> such that a program could add, name and tag PoI and request notifications when near some set of them
Nov 29 21:28:34 <moko-bunny> cool, thx!
Nov 29 21:29:15 <mjr> I have a feeling that many apps will be implementing some sort of PoI stuff on their own, would require less work to do it that way
Nov 29 21:29:59 <edistar> mjr: good idea
Nov 29 21:33:12 <NineX> edistar: ???
Nov 29 21:33:42 <edistar> NineX: I thought you knew a link to a website that had quite funny comics on it.. or was that somebody else here?
Nov 29 21:33:59 <josch> edistar, xkcd.org
Nov 29 21:34:05 <edistar> josch: ok, thx
Nov 29 21:35:09 <borg_> root@fic-gta01:/tmp$ ipkg install gllin_1.0\+r350-r0_fic-gta01.ipk 
Nov 29 21:35:09 <borg_> ipkg: invalid magic
Nov 29 21:35:11 <borg_> o_O
Nov 29 21:35:45 <anrp> 2019d71f72faa87501c56d99b470ea62  gll/gllin_1.0+r350-r0_fic-gta01.ipk
Nov 29 21:35:55 <anrp> your md5 the same?
Nov 29 21:36:32 <borg_> actually it isn't
Nov 29 21:37:49 <alphaone> borg_: Did you just wget <url>?
Nov 29 21:38:06 <borg_> no
Nov 29 21:38:09 <alphaone> borg_: You need to accept an EULA first
Nov 29 21:38:12 <borg_> root@fic-gta01:/tmp$ ipkg install gllin_1.0\+r350-r0_fic-gta01.ipk 
Nov 29 21:38:12 <borg_> Installing gllin (1.0+r350-r0) to root...
Nov 29 21:38:14 <borg_> wow
Nov 29 21:38:14 <alphaone> hmm, okay
Nov 29 21:38:27 <borg_> thats the first time in my life, that a scp didn't work well
Nov 29 21:38:45 <alphaone> heh
Nov 29 21:39:05 <stefan_schmidt> alphaone: Now you have to explain borg_ the stuff we learned from our mail/dns girlie. :)
Nov 29 21:42:49 <borg_> and...? :)
Nov 29 21:42:53 <borg_> what did you learn?
Nov 29 21:44:08 <stefan_schmidt> borg_: She told us that it is pretty normal the "some bits" are not getting transferred correctly when syncing mailfolders from one machine to another.
Nov 29 21:44:27 <anrp> normal??
Nov 29 21:44:33 <stefan_schmidt> borg_: Hence our read-flags were missing on the mails. But only the flags. :)
Nov 29 21:44:44 <borg_> interesting :)
Nov 29 21:45:18 <stefan_schmidt> That's the reason why all my mail gets forwarded instead of stored there. :)
Nov 29 21:48:33 * mjr is satisfied that the Wiki has poi api wishlist stuff and points to GeoClue
Nov 29 21:57:51 <kdean06> Are there going to be any sort of trade-in incentives when the GTA02 hits?
Nov 29 21:58:05 <mjr> no
Nov 29 21:58:14 <mjr> well, presumably not
Nov 29 21:59:11 <mjr> earlier this year they considered giving a discount to gta01 buyers, but decided to bump the gta01 price down $50 instead
Nov 29 22:00:45 <cjb_ie> gta01 could go on to lead a useful second-hand life as openstreetmap mapping gadgets :-)
Nov 29 22:01:39 <edistar> cjb_ie: I wouldn't mind buying a second-hand gta-01 for my dad ;)
Nov 29 22:02:58 <mjr> yes, that mapping osm bit
Nov 29 22:03:26 * mjr reads up now that he can get a trace
Nov 29 22:03:39 <metzenas> btw. maybe someone should change the estimated release month for GTA02 in the topic for february according to the last community update?
Nov 29 22:05:49 <kdean06> FIC either is stupid or unconcerened... 
Nov 29 22:07:14 <kdean06> If I didn't know about GTA02, I'd have bought a GTA01. I'm holding off now because it's a LOT of money to spend knowing it's already being upgraded. 
Nov 29 22:07:43 <mjr> 01 hasn't for a long time been intended for mass market
Nov 29 22:07:49 <mjr> so "unconcerned"
Nov 29 22:07:54 <kdean06> No, I understand that.
Nov 29 22:07:56 <edistar> kdean06: and whats the problem for FIC then?
Nov 29 22:08:05 <kdean06> edistar, I'm sure I'm not alone. 
Nov 29 22:08:11 <edistar> kdean06: me too :)
Nov 29 22:08:24 <edistar> kdean06: but I didn't want to buy buggy hardware anyway
Nov 29 22:08:25 <kdean06> There are people who don't own ANY device, because they're waiting.
Nov 29 22:09:06 <kdean06> I can skip incrimental upgrades... If it was just a faster processor and more memory... But that actually packs some useful features.
Nov 29 22:09:54 <edistar> kdean06: yes :)
Nov 29 22:10:38 <morricone> kdean06, me too
Nov 29 22:12:34 <metzenas> otherwise GTA01 would be fine for me, but without 3g-support wifi is a must for me so that's why I was waiting for october, then december and now february
Nov 29 22:14:07 <metzenas> I can wait, no problem. I'm just a little worried how the device is going to look in the eye of the masses if it delays too long...
Nov 29 22:16:30 <kdean06> I'm the opposite... I think for those who OM appeals, it will be well recieved. But I NEED a phone now. :P If I buy a cheap one that's still more money than I want to waste... I'm so torn.
Nov 29 22:16:49 <kdean06> Well...
Nov 29 22:17:05 <kdean06> Hell... I even wonder if there really WILL be a second release. ;P
Nov 29 22:17:34 <edistar> kdean06: heh, good question, write to sean ;)
Nov 29 22:17:58 <borg_> how long does it take until you get a position the first time with the gps?
Nov 29 22:18:18 <mjr> took maybe 5 minutes for me after getting outside
Nov 29 22:18:25 <anrp> absolute worst case ,assuming you see the sats, should be 10 minutes or so
Nov 29 22:18:29 <anrp> you'll probably see less
Nov 29 22:18:34 <borg_> mh
Nov 29 22:18:37 <borg_> 11 minutes now
Nov 29 22:18:41 <anrp> D:
Nov 29 22:18:57 <josch> borg_, are you really out under clear sky?
Nov 29 22:19:04 <borg_> when i click on AZ i see some satellites
Nov 29 22:19:11 <borg_> josch: no
Nov 29 22:19:17 <borg_> do i really have to?
Nov 29 22:19:27 <josch> borg_, maybe? :-/
Nov 29 22:20:10 <mjr> quite possibly yes
Nov 29 22:20:28 <borg_> but there it is cold
Nov 29 22:20:31 <borg_> :)
Nov 29 22:20:42 <mjr> you need to see enough sats sufficiently unobscured
Nov 29 22:20:54 <josch> borg_, where are you from?
Nov 29 22:21:05 <borg_> paderborn
Nov 29 22:21:13 <borg_> :P
Nov 29 22:21:15 <borg_> (germany)
Nov 29 22:21:16 <mjr> try putting the phone beside a window for a while?
Nov 29 22:21:16 <josch> rwhitby in australia may have summer now... :-(
Nov 29 22:21:28 <josch> borg_, munich is much colder here ^^
Nov 29 22:21:44 <borg_> mh.. now it says 0.46666667 E 0.01666667 N under plot
Nov 29 22:21:45 <edistar> borg_: you have awful beer there!
Nov 29 22:21:53 <borg_> http://maps.google.de/maps?f=q&hl=de&geocode=&time=&date=&ttype=&q=0.46666667+E+0.01666667+N&ie=UTF8&z=17&iwloc=addr&om=1
Nov 29 22:21:56 <borg_> haha
Nov 29 22:22:00 <borg_> edistar: thanks :)
Nov 29 22:22:10 <edistar> borg_: heh ;)
Nov 29 22:22:13 <mjr> you trying to say you're not there?
Nov 29 22:22:20 <josch> borg_, fucked up coordinates?
Nov 29 22:22:40 <borg_> ok, i will go outside
Nov 29 22:22:41 <borg_> bbl
Nov 29 22:26:53 <borg_> http://maps.google.de/maps?f=q&hl=de&geocode=&time=&date=&ttype=&q=51.706276+N+8.774230+E&ie=UTF8&ll=51.706276,8.774235&spn=0.008976,0.028667&t=h&z=16&iwloc=addr&om=1
Nov 29 22:26:57 <borg_> NICE!
Nov 29 22:26:59 <borg_> :D
Nov 29 22:27:33 <borg_> it points exactly to my aparment
Nov 29 22:27:37 <edistar> nice ;)
Nov 29 22:29:10 <borg_> to bad that it doesnt work inside
Nov 29 22:29:13 <borg_> will it work in my car?
Nov 29 22:29:32 <edistar> borg_: cabrio?
Nov 29 22:30:09 <borg_> no.....
Nov 29 22:30:14 <borg_> golf 2 :)
Nov 29 22:30:24 <edistar> just try it :_
Nov 29 22:30:25 <edistar> :)
Nov 29 22:30:30 <borg_> of course ;)
Nov 29 22:30:42 <josch> another gps question: where is the gps antenna?
Nov 29 22:30:46 <stefan_schmidt> borg_: Once you have a fix, it could keep working in your car
Nov 29 22:30:51 <josch> which side must look to the sky?
Nov 29 22:31:09 <edistar> josch: I think it's at the top
Nov 29 22:31:15 <borg_> can i use an external antenna?
Nov 29 22:31:19 <stefan_schmidt> josch: It is at the top
Nov 29 22:31:36 <stefan_schmidt> borg_: Yeah, the connector on the right side is for an external GPS antenna
Nov 29 22:31:53 <josch> ah great!
Nov 29 22:32:02 * josch goes buying an antenna
Nov 29 22:32:10 <stefan_schmidt> borg_: I have a bluetooth GPS with the same chipset and it works fine in the pocket of my jacket when driving with my car.
Nov 29 22:32:26 <edistar> stefan_schmidt: I suppose it depends on the antenna
Nov 29 22:32:48 <borg_> stefan_schmidt: ah excelent
Nov 29 22:32:58 <mjr> my first fix came while I was in a bus
Nov 29 22:32:58 <borg_> i asked me allready for what it is :)
Nov 29 22:33:12 <borg_> i havent used gps until now ;)
Nov 29 22:33:37 <stefan_schmidt> edistar: Try it. I think it should work after having a fix already. Getting one inside a pocket in a car is another story.
Nov 29 22:33:40 <mjr> a vehicle wouldn't necessarily need an external antenna (though the option is good)
Nov 29 22:34:37 <mjr> reportedly Sean was demoed a fix indoors, though must've been rather good conditions
Nov 29 22:35:00 <mjr> in my home, first floor of an apt. building, facing other such buildings, no fix *sob*
Nov 29 22:35:02 <metzenas> my bluetooth gps keeps the signal very well even under really bad conditions, but if I turn it on while moving, or when there is something blocking part of the sky... it takes forever to get the fix
Nov 29 22:35:43 <stefan_schmidt> metzenas: Same for mine. Getting a fix is the hard part of GPS chips. :)
Nov 29 22:35:44 <edistar> yeah, somehow gps doesn't like being turned on while moving..
Nov 29 22:36:22 <mjr> I generally like to be stationary (to within several meters) when turned on also
Nov 29 22:37:51 <CoreDump> mjr: lol! good one
Nov 29 22:48:35 <likesN30> Hello all
Nov 29 23:04:22 <likesN30> Just installed gllin. It works except for a small quirck that got worried a bit
Nov 29 23:04:56 <likesN30> It first prints out a lot of lines Starting with GPSpwr
Nov 29 23:05:11 <likesN30> And then suddenly: gllin:  early exit(3) in halInit()/681
Nov 29 23:05:49 <RoboPhred> anyone mind giving help on compiling the openmoko image?
Nov 29 23:06:25 <edistar> RoboPhred: look in the wiki, the mokomakefile is a huge help
Nov 29 23:06:35 <edistar> RoboPhred: make openmoko-devel-image
Nov 29 23:06:40 <RoboPhred> I am getting a checksum mismatch, says nothing about it
Nov 29 23:06:44 <RoboPhred> google turns no results
Nov 29 23:06:47 <RoboPhred> yep, what I have been doing
Nov 29 23:06:51 <edistar> oh
Nov 29 23:07:19 <RoboPhred> "Checksum of 'http://xorg.freedesktop.org/releases/individual/lib/libSM-1.0.3.tar.bz2' failed"
Nov 29 23:08:42 <RoboPhred>  /msg nickserv link RoboPhred
Nov 29 23:09:17 <RoboPhred> grr, never got  the hang of irc
Nov 29 23:09:40 <likesN30> RoboPhred: was the file completely read in?
Nov 29 23:10:11 <likesN30> I mean, no errors on download?
Nov 29 23:10:12 <RoboPhred> it gets a file, but apparently its corrupt or somthing similar
Nov 29 23:10:16 <RoboPhred> not that it shows
Nov 29 23:10:33 <RoboPhred> yep, claims its good
Nov 29 23:10:40 <RoboPhred> just has the  checksum as different
Nov 29 23:12:03 <RoboPhred> can someone run that part to confirm that the xorg site is good?
Nov 29 23:12:50 <CoreDump> 184cbf502b3cd5d7ba5f9d1290a99606  libSM-1.0.3.tar.bz2
Nov 29 23:12:57 <CoreDump> 57f42d3557effe452cd348362977ff90fa61009885c23b3aca8cb0219b5dec04  libSM-1.0.3.tar.bz2
Nov 29 23:13:07 <CoreDump> md5 + sha256
Nov 29 23:13:15 <RoboPhred> "NOTE: The MD5Sums did not match. Wanted: '184cbf502b3cd5d7ba5f9d1290a99606' and Got: 'e3cc2e547afa92ac93236fb5a7e808c1'"
Nov 29 23:13:25 <RoboPhred> hm
Nov 29 23:14:07 <CoreDump> your d/l is damaged then
Nov 29 23:14:16 <RoboPhred> gives me this every time
Nov 29 23:14:22 <CoreDump> rm sources/libSM*
Nov 29 23:14:24 <RoboPhred> tried replacing makefile and all the lot
Nov 29 23:15:17 <RoboPhred> also a side note, how would I get psyco-python on ubuntu
Nov 29 23:15:25 <RoboPhred> apt-get claims it sees it but there are no sources for it
Nov 29 23:16:14 <mmontour> Try "python-psyco"
Nov 29 23:17:02 <RoboPhred> nope, "no install canidite"
Nov 29 23:17:08 <RoboPhred> candidate*
Nov 29 23:19:13 <likesN30> Regarding the libSM issue: can you untar it correctly? Then there sure is something wrong with the calculation of the checksum
Nov 29 23:19:31 <RoboPhred> I think the rm resolved it, its continueing to compile other stuff now
Nov 29 23:19:57 <Writchie> so does release of an OABI GLIN mean we will never have an EABI version?
Nov 29 23:20:13 <CM> I suspect so, for gta01..
Nov 29 23:20:22 <likesN30> Going to sleep now. Bye all
Nov 29 23:21:13 <Writchie> well I guess its better than no gps at all. 
Nov 29 23:21:31 <RoboPhred> OABI/EABI?
Nov 29 23:21:47 <balrog-kun> someone should wrap it in a single binary with something that converts the calls
Nov 29 23:22:00 <CM> balrog-kun: Ghiottone is working on that
Nov 29 23:22:09 <balrog-kun> CM: oh cool
Nov 29 23:22:12 <RoboPhred> most google says about those terms is somthing to do with the kernal, can someone define them?
Nov 29 23:22:13 <CM> Together with the author of statifier
Nov 29 23:22:24 <Writchie> that would be good instead of carrying all the baggage
Nov 29 23:22:44 <CM> Haven't heard from him in a while, so I'm not sure how it's going
Nov 29 23:22:51 <balrog-kun> i just thought it might be a nice hack to make a generic programs that translates calls between ABIs and wraps binaries
Nov 29 23:22:53 <Writchie> RoboPhred: ARM systems have old and new Application Binary Interfaces. 
Nov 29 23:23:08 <CM> balrog-kun: That would be really cool
Nov 29 23:23:17 <RoboPhred> thanks
Nov 29 23:23:17 <CM> btw, that's not what Ghiottone is doing
Nov 29 23:23:23 <Writchie> OM2007.1 uses the old OABI and OM2007.2 uses the newer one. 
Nov 29 23:23:24 <balrog-kun> ok :)
Nov 29 23:23:35 <stefan_schmidt> Night folks. Have fun with your GPS.
Nov 29 23:23:42 <CM> They were trying to package all necessary libs and the gllin inside a single blob
Nov 29 23:23:51 <CM> No chroot or so
Nov 29 23:24:41 <balrog-kun> if you converted all of the calls you wouldn't need any libs
Nov 29 23:24:48 <balrog-kun> any OABI libs i mean
Nov 29 23:25:09 <CM> True, would be a very neat hack :)
Nov 29 23:25:22 <Writchie> I though they had the sources
Nov 29 23:25:36 <balrog-kun> i wonder if valgrind code could be used for that easily
Nov 29 23:25:43 <balrog-kun> or maybe qemu
Nov 29 23:25:49 <RoboPhred> just saw the libSM flicker by, looks like its good, thanks lot
Nov 29 23:25:58 <zilux`> RoboPhred: python-psyco is in the universe repository
Nov 29 23:26:04 * CM goes to bed
Nov 29 23:26:15 <RoboPhred> I saw, but couldnt find out how to add it
Nov 29 23:26:28 <RoboPhred> tried downloading it from the ubuntu site, but the installer py failed
Nov 29 23:26:50 <zilux`> on gutsy?
Nov 29 23:26:57 <RoboPhred> yep
Nov 29 23:30:04 <RoboPhred> odd... according to my sources.lst, the universe repository is in
Nov 29 23:31:00 <RoboPhred> gotta go, will return later
Nov 29 23:33:19 <rwhitby> josch: re summer in Australia - it's 33C today.
Nov 29 23:33:41 <josch> rwhitby, ah... lucky rwhitby :-D
Nov 29 23:34:11 <josch> 2.1°C...
Nov 29 23:34:38 <Writchie> 27C and its winter ;)
Nov 29 23:40:49 <tonarp> could someone explain me this channel what are you talking about ?
Nov 29 23:41:41 <abraxa_> tonarp: Just like on any IRC channel: girls, drugs and rock'n'roll :)
Nov 29 23:41:53 <abraxa_> (oh, and computers every now and then)
Nov 29 23:41:59 <josch> abraxa_, don't forget th... ah yes
Nov 29 23:42:16 <tonarp> ok funny
Nov 29 23:42:53 <josch> tonarp, yeah just today was a big gllin party here
Nov 29 23:43:04 <josch> everybody drinking and having fun - great times!
Nov 29 23:44:13 * mjr got pyroute barely running. More testing tomorrow.
Nov 29 23:44:59 <RoboPhred> well, that was a good use of my asian history class
Nov 29 23:45:19 <RoboPhred> entire time trying to get it to compile, didnt hear a word of the lecture
Nov 29 23:45:25 <abraxa_> lol
Nov 29 23:45:49 <josch> doesn't it compile without you watching it shifting bytes around?
Nov 29 23:46:03 <RoboPhred> there was a checksum error I was fiddling with
Nov 29 23:46:10 <mjr> And apparently gpsd eats gllin's output. Maybe.
Nov 29 23:46:10 <josch> :-D
Nov 29 23:46:31 <RoboPhred> anyway, I like watching it shift bytes around >.>
Nov 29 23:46:51 <josch> RoboPhred, who doesn't? :-)
Nov 29 23:47:24 <RoboPhred> I am hoping I can start making software for this thing, at least I can try to recognise some names in this endless stream of packages
Nov 29 23:50:08 <tonarp> how can i develop apps for openmoko.prg
Nov 29 23:51:48 <josch> tonarp, depends on the kind of app but mostly the same way you do for your local linux system
Nov 29 23:52:14 <RoboPhred> step 1 is messing with the makefile, compile takes ages
Nov 29 23:52:19 <josch> GUI is gtk and the program logic can be done in c or some scripting language like python
Nov 29 23:53:05 <josch> tonarp, http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Application_Development_Crash_Course
Nov 29 23:53:05 <RoboPhred> once I get this thing all downloaded, I am going to try my hand at fixing the bug I submitted on that bridges game
Nov 29 23:55:41 <RoboPhred> hm, does "make qemu" just download the premade images?
Nov 29 23:55:50 <RoboPhred> for the openmoko part?
Nov 29 23:56:30 <balrog-kun> that and build the emulator i think
Nov 29 23:56:38 <RoboPhred> ok, thought so
Nov 29 23:57:01 <RoboPhred> anyone got gadgetfs working?
Nov 29 23:57:17 <balrog-kun> yes
Nov 29 23:57:37 <RoboPhred> ubuntu claims its installed, I see it listed under /proc/filesystems or suchlike, but mounting it complains unknown fs gadgetfs
Nov 29 23:57:57 <RoboPhred> followed the wiki instructions under the qemu info
Nov 29 23:58:10 <balrog-kun> hmmm
Nov 29 23:58:31 <balrog-kun> does the message from mount say something like "unknown fs or bad superblock or something else.."?
Nov 29 23:58:40 <RoboPhred> unknown fs
Nov 29 23:58:50 <RoboPhred> hold on, I will get it running again to get it to the letter
Nov 29 23:59:06 <balrog-kun> strange, if it's in /proc/filesystems mount shouldn't say that
Nov 29 23:59:33 <RoboPhred> woa, this is... weird
Nov 29 23:59:39 <RoboPhred> run-qemu is failing now
Nov 29 23:59:58 <balrog-kun> did make qemu finish?
Nov 30 00:00:07 <RoboPhred> I was using it this afternoon...
Nov 30 00:00:13 <RoboPhred> ah well, recompiling
Nov 30 00:00:36 <RoboPhred> its probably dell's great insight to put an extra shock sensitive hard drive in a laptop
Nov 30 00:03:44 <RoboPhred> "mount: unknown filesystem type 'gadgetfs'"
Nov 30 00:04:34 <peepsalot> is the mokowheel still part of the UI, or was that ditched when they did the whole UI redesign?
Nov 30 00:04:43 <RoboPhred> is it an issue that /proc/filesystems lists nodev before gadgetfs?
Nov 30 00:05:01 <mickey|sports> the mokowheel is dead 
Nov 30 00:05:01 <josch> peepsalot, ditched
Nov 30 00:05:08 <mickey|sports> as are most of my nice classes...
Nov 30 00:05:21 <peepsalot> ah ok
Nov 30 00:05:34 <balrog-kun> RoboPhred: no
Nov 30 00:05:46 <RoboPhred> alright, so any idea whats up with it?
Nov 30 00:06:44 <mopri> hi guys, .. I've been unlocking iphones for friends, and i find the the virtual keyboard great!, I was thinking to do something for the community and programming that for openmoko.  But first wanted to know if anyone has already done it, and if theirs any good?
Nov 30 00:07:20 <RoboPhred> there was some keyboard project I saw on the moko project site, didnt get too much info from it though
Nov 30 00:07:53 <RoboPhred> I think its a different concept though, was aiming to be a sort of shorthand entry, I think
Nov 30 00:07:58 <balrog-kun> RoboPhred: does your system have another mount (type mount and press <tab><tab> to see what other executables are there) maybe this one is not the original mount?
Nov 30 00:08:29 <balrog-kun> does someone know if it's possible to disable the autosave in goodle docs, especially when you made no changes?
Nov 30 00:08:39 <RoboPhred> mount, mount.fuze, mount.ntfs, mount.ntfs-3g, mountpoint
Nov 30 00:08:44 <mopri> i'll look for itm, thanks RoboPhred
Nov 30 00:08:50 <RoboPhred> mopri: http://projects.openmoko.org/projects/finger-keyboard/
Nov 30 00:08:51 <balrog-kun> that's none of these :/
Nov 30 00:18:30 <RoboPhred> woo, download is almost nearly 1/5 there
Nov 30 00:18:48 <RoboPhred> meanwhile I tripped the bug I am planning to try to fix at least 4 times
Nov 30 00:18:55 <RoboPhred> accidentally
Nov 30 00:28:13 <ljp> anyone gotten a bluetooth headset working?
Nov 30 00:28:37 <jadams__> does it need an antenna for gps?
Nov 30 00:28:58 <jadams__> I've had this app running all day and it only gets two satellites in the blue on agpsui
Nov 30 00:29:05 <ljp> good question. 
Nov 30 00:29:06 <jadams__> occasionally hits three, but never triangulates
Nov 30 00:35:00 <CIA-14> 03mickey * r3534 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007.2/libraries/libmokogsmd2/ChangeLog: libmokogsmd2: supply missing ChangeLog entry (bad mickeyl...)
Nov 30 00:38:13 <CIA-14> 03mickey * r3535 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007.2/panel-plugins/openmoko-panel-gsm/src/openmoko-panel-gsm.c: openmoko-panel-gsm: #ifdef auto setup code for now...
Nov 30 00:38:30 <holycow> hey guys
Nov 30 00:38:40 <holycow> is the consumer version of moko now on sale?
Nov 30 00:38:53 <RoboPhred> nop
Nov 30 00:39:22 * mickeyl relabels consumer version as 2nd developer preview
Nov 30 00:40:21 <RoboPhred> oh dear, makefile is throwing up 404s now
Nov 30 00:40:42 <RoboPhred> still running though, apparently it recovered...
Nov 30 00:41:46 <mjr> pyroute seems a _tad_ slow on gta01
Nov 30 00:41:54 <holycow> mickeyl: 
Nov 30 00:41:58 <holycow> hehe even
Nov 30 00:44:22 <ljp> mickeyl: good thinkin'
Nov 30 00:44:36 <mickeyl> ya, honestly
Nov 30 00:44:43 <mickeyl> the consumer version will be gta03
Nov 30 00:44:50 <mickeyl> gta02 still has too much legacy
Nov 30 00:45:02 <mickeyl> PMU, case, CPU.
Nov 30 00:45:13 <mickeyl> GSM
Nov 30 00:45:20 <anrp> gsm is legacy?
Nov 30 00:45:30 * anrp news
Nov 30 00:46:22 <mickeyl> no, not gsm per se
Nov 30 00:46:26 <mickeyl> TI Calypso
Nov 30 00:48:59 <Crofton|home> men assumes mickeyl has learned a lot about the cell phone handset biz ...
Nov 30 00:49:08 <Crofton|home> er /em assuems
Nov 30 00:49:13 <mickeyl> indeed
Nov 30 00:49:13 <Crofton|home> er /me ...
Nov 30 00:49:14 <mickeyl> it's amazing
Nov 30 00:49:18 <Crofton|home> yeah
Nov 30 00:49:24 <mickeyl> i didn't know shit about manufacturing
Nov 30 00:49:35 <mickeyl> now i know more than i wanted ;)
Nov 30 00:49:38 <Crofton|home> :)
Nov 30 00:49:52 <Crofton|home> I know a little, but that knowledge is out of date
Nov 30 00:50:04 <Crofton|home> nad in *much* lower volume
Nov 30 00:51:07 <mickeyl> i know for sure that when I'm in the position of leading a team that makes a product involving hardware product, I will chose my production partners wisely...
Nov 30 00:51:19 <Crofton|home> yeah
Nov 30 00:51:25 <mickeyl> otherwise you're spending billions of dollars with PCB revisions
Nov 30 00:51:37 <Crofton|home> those guys are not cheap
Nov 30 00:51:39 <mickeyl> s/spending/wasting/
Nov 30 00:51:40 <apt> mickeyl meant: otherwise you're wasting billions of dollars with PCB revisions
Nov 30 00:51:53 <mickeyl> that's true. but it will pay off in the long run
Nov 30 00:51:58 <mickeyl> at least i think so
Nov 30 00:52:11 <Crofton|home> yeah, but the dollar is worth abuot 0.01 euro these days ...
Nov 30 00:52:45 <CoreDump> >killall `ps ax|grep evolu|awk '{print $5}' | grep -v grep`
Nov 30 00:52:50 <CoreDump> err
Nov 30 00:53:04 <Crofton|home> I talked to a friend about the 850MHz thing
Nov 30 00:53:16 <Crofton|home> He knows about this stuff :)
Nov 30 00:53:30 <Crofton|home> 850 is the hardest band to cover, antenna wise
Nov 30 00:53:48 <mickeyl> yeah. 
Nov 30 00:54:05 <Crofton|home> lower frequency means larger antenna for smae performance
Nov 30 00:54:09 * mjr wonders if openmoko's screen has a leak or it just has insane internal history
Nov 30 00:54:09 <Crofton|home> very roughly
Nov 30 00:54:12 * ljp is glad he works for software co
Nov 30 00:54:23 * balrog-kun too
Nov 30 00:54:23 * Crofton|home gues there are some propagation issues also
Nov 30 00:54:28 <mjr> 'cause mine is taking 23 megs
Nov 30 00:54:35 * CoreDump is glad he works in EE...
Nov 30 00:54:47 * Crofton|home lives in a shady half world
Nov 30 00:55:08 <Crofton|home> and can speak to both EE's and CS sorts
Nov 30 00:55:50 * mjr dares say pyroute is not fit for mobile phones at this point
Nov 30 00:57:00 <mjr> it's been loading my local osm data for quite a while now
Nov 30 01:08:47 <mjr> it does route though
Nov 30 01:09:53 <mjr> Still I somehow think a native application would be nice. And perhaps some other solution for maps than on-demand loading from the net.
Nov 30 01:10:42 <mjr> ...as images
Nov 30 01:18:22 * mjr laments the lack of visible gps sats from his window for testing purposes
Nov 30 01:19:18 <pjz> woo, gllin available
Nov 30 01:19:41 <mjr> yes it is
Nov 30 01:20:22 * mjr wonders if he should use lack of sleep by walking a path the OSM lacks, but decides against it in the middle of the night
Nov 30 01:26:11 * mjr notes that the Helsinki-Kuopio railway isn't in OSM at least fully; if I can keep a fix inside the train this weekend, that'll be corrected...
Nov 30 01:32:59 <mjr> Zoom enough out at www.openstreetmap.org, it shows the map of the world as a tiled strip in west-east direction, above and below it the stock images "...more OSM coming soon"
Nov 30 01:33:28 <ewon> heh
Nov 30 01:33:37 * mjr doesn't hold breath
Nov 30 01:37:50 <cesarb> I get away from the community for some time (due to too little free time), and precisely when I decide to check, gllin is out. Great timing :D
Nov 30 01:37:58 * cesarb goes to sleep
Nov 30 01:44:56 * balrog-kun notices that his city still has lots of space to fill in, including places i visit everyday, but is actually positively surprised because i thought there would be even less data
Nov 30 01:45:15 <SpeedEvil> balrog-kun: where are you?
Nov 30 01:45:26 <balrog-kun> SpeedEvil: warsaw, poland
Nov 30 01:45:33 <SpeedEvil> ah
Nov 30 01:45:43 <SpeedEvil> consider that OSM is about 2 years old
Nov 30 01:45:49 <SpeedEvil> and it's insanely good.
Nov 30 01:46:04 <balrog-kun> yeah, i'm really quite surprised
Nov 30 01:46:08 <SpeedEvil> in very few places is OSM suitable for general routing.
Nov 30 01:46:19 <balrog-kun> i need to start filling in the bits too :/
Nov 30 01:47:07 <SpeedEvil> I've done some 300km? of assorted roads.
Nov 30 01:48:14 <mjr> Helsinki seems to be in pretty good shape actually, not much use for me unless I get a friend and drive around the neighbouring cities
Nov 30 01:48:19 <SpeedEvil> balrog-kun: I don't know what mapping in poland was like - in the UK there are some public maps from 1940 that are PD and 'good enough' for assisting in ariel mapping.
Nov 30 01:48:28 <SpeedEvil> not PD
Nov 30 01:48:32 <SpeedEvil> copyright expired ratehr
Nov 30 01:48:59 <balrog-kun> SpeedEvil: they are not digital i assume?
Nov 30 01:49:17 <SpeedEvil> balrog-kun: no - but some nice person has scanned them.
Nov 30 01:49:20 <balrog-kun> how do you make use of non-digital maps? you still need a gps, right?
Nov 30 01:49:32 <SpeedEvil> balrog-kun: several ways.
Nov 30 01:49:34 <mjr> there'd be some ground to cover in eastern Helsinki though still
Nov 30 01:49:52 <balrog-kun> you just don't need to take pictures if you can take the street names off such a map, i guess?
Nov 30 01:49:56 <SpeedEvil> balrog-kun: you have a GPS track, but don't remember the names of the towns that it goes through
Nov 30 01:50:41 <SpeedEvil> in practice, many areas have been extensively redeveloped since 1940. In some places street-level maps are still adequate though.
Nov 30 01:51:19 <balrog-kun> yeah, i guess adding you own knowledge of your city to that you can get accurate names
Nov 30 01:52:54 <SpeedEvil> As an example, in Fife, Scotland http://informationfreeway.org/?lat=56.26952052399686&lon=-3.0971764347540627&zoom=10&layers=B000F000 
Nov 30 01:53:10 <SpeedEvil> I've added about 1200Km of roads and tracks from the NPE map.
Nov 30 01:53:20 <SpeedEvil> these do not currently render in the main map view.
Nov 30 01:53:48 <SpeedEvil> but are useful for hints for surveying. 'there might be a road here' and route planning
Nov 30 01:55:15 * balrog-kun adds it to the TODO to not leave home next Monday without my neo all prepared for loggin the track (unless for a good reason)
Nov 30 02:01:41 <SpeedEvil> On other news. I hadn't realised how insanely tiny cameras have gotten.
Nov 30 02:01:58 <SpeedEvil> ST have a reflowable 5*5*3mm VGA camera.
Nov 30 02:02:04 <SpeedEvil> including lens.
Nov 30 02:02:18 <SpeedEvil> Ok - it's not a great camera. But still.
Nov 30 02:02:37 <mjr> no video?
Nov 30 02:02:43 <mjr> I'll get me coat.
Nov 30 02:03:28 <SpeedEvil> :)
Nov 30 02:04:35 * mwester-road has his neo on the window ledge of the hotel here in Ottawa, Canada in hopes that the newly-released gllin will finally get a fix...
Nov 30 02:05:20 <SpeedEvil> is this a new ABI version?
Nov 30 02:05:31 <SpeedEvil> is it functionally the same as the old one?
Nov 30 02:05:42 * mjr would like some real gps data to verify he can get at it through gpsd listening to the pipe, but that'd require wondering out in the middle of the night
Nov 30 02:05:45 <mjr> OABI
Nov 30 02:05:53 <mwester-road> It's not a new ABI, I have no idea if its the same binary or not.
Nov 30 02:06:00 <mjr> it carries the requisite libs with it
Nov 30 02:06:22 <mwester-road> But the list of libs it installs is longer than the list on the wiki
Nov 30 02:06:32 <SpeedEvil> md5 bf8ab4fda531bd00503a13ddfe2e2740?
Nov 30 02:06:36 <SpeedEvil> for the binary alone?
Nov 30 02:06:53 <mjr> match
Nov 30 02:06:56 * mwester-road 's usb cable won't reach to the window legge....
Nov 30 02:07:08 <SpeedEvil> it won't typically lock indoors
Nov 30 02:07:20 <SpeedEvil> at least for me
Nov 30 02:07:26 <ewon> the sirf-III does
Nov 30 02:07:33 <ewon> I wonder how good the new gps chipset is
Nov 30 02:07:33 <SpeedEvil> the neo I mean
Nov 30 02:07:48 <mwester-road> I carried it to the restaurant earlier - 15 minute walk through the wind and snow.  It wouldn't lock.
Nov 30 02:08:03 <SpeedEvil> mwester-road: that should have IME. 
Nov 30 02:08:12 <mwester-road> And I'm finally warm again (I didn't take a winter coat on this trip), so I'm not going out again! :D
Nov 30 02:08:20 <mwester-road> IME ?
Nov 30 02:08:29 <mjr> initial fix for me in about 5 minutes after going outside, and into the bus
Nov 30 02:08:46 <SpeedEvil> In My Experience
Nov 30 02:09:22 <mjr> Kept fix nicely until went indoors for lunch, reacquired appropriately switly when exiting building
Nov 30 02:11:23 <mjr> apparently takes a bit less than 2 megabytes of (resident) memory with the OABI libs
Nov 30 02:15:53 <mjr> need to make a browser launcher that opens the local public transit route planner with source position from gps
Nov 30 02:16:03 <ckuethe> ewon: the atmel/ublox antaris4 family is good...
Nov 30 02:28:17 <roh> youre all having fun?
Nov 30 02:30:26 <ljp> does it need a gps antenna?
Nov 30 02:30:51 <mjr> it has one
Nov 30 02:30:56 <roh> ckuethe the antaris should be even more sensitive when it comes to rf than sirfIII  ;)
Nov 30 02:31:03 <mjr> you can plug in an external one too
Nov 30 02:31:27 <ckuethe> it is
Nov 30 02:31:29 <roh> ljp there is an internal active antenna and a plug to connect an external one with 3V feed for the preamp/filter
Nov 30 02:31:33 <ckuethe> the antaris is awesome
Nov 30 02:31:41 <ckuethe> i have a couple of them already
Nov 30 02:32:01 <roh> ckuethe do you know details about extra features of ubx compared to nmea mode? i haven't had the time to dive into that
Nov 30 02:32:05 <ckuethe> yes
Nov 30 02:32:14 <ckuethe> whaddya wanna know
Nov 30 02:32:33 <roh> what can it do more or better
Nov 30 02:32:45 <ckuethe> one of the major features (and something i take advantage of in gpsd) is the fact that you get a full PVT solution in a single message
Nov 30 02:32:48 <ckuethe> nmea can't do that
Nov 30 02:33:19 <ckuethe> you can get raw data (pseudorange, etc) for postprocessing .... nmea can do that, with proprietary messages
Nov 30 02:34:58 <roh> is it also used to upload agps assistance data fetched from http for example to the ublox? or is that another extra protocol?
Nov 30 02:35:04 <ckuethe> yes you can do that
Nov 30 02:35:29 <ckuethe> that's the "AID" message class
Nov 30 02:37:32 <roh> ckuethe did you test the combination of gllin as released with gps on the moko?
Nov 30 02:38:10 <ckuethe> no. my moko is sitting under my desk at home
Nov 30 02:38:20 <ckuethe> rogers runs 850MHz in edmonton :(
Nov 30 02:38:45 <ckuethe> so i've had no motivation to work on it
Nov 30 02:38:49 <Writchie> ckuethe: do you know if all of the information is there in the proprietary protocol to be able to do fake NMEA and RTCM ports from a single connection to the module using UBX binary protocol
Nov 30 02:39:05 <ckuethe> yep
Nov 30 02:39:06 <ckuethe> use gpsd
Nov 30 02:39:23 <ckuethe> dunno about RTCM
Nov 30 02:39:34 <ckuethe> i've never bothered to try
Nov 30 02:39:36 <Writchie> it looks like it has WAAS also
Nov 30 02:39:53 <Writchie> WAAS plus DGPS might be interesting
Nov 30 02:39:55 <ckuethe> yes, you can track up to 3 SBAS PRN's
Nov 30 02:40:15 <ckuethe> "The ANTARIS GPS Technology supports RTCM version 2.2 Correction Type Messages 1, 2, 3 and 9. "
Nov 30 02:40:31 <Writchie> but we have only one serial interface connected. 
Nov 30 02:40:37 <ckuethe> so you could configure the gps to accept input RTCM,NMEA,UBX on one interface
Nov 30 02:40:44 <Writchie> ah
Nov 30 02:41:03 <ckuethe> you can run multiple protocols on one port, and the same protocol on multiple ports
Nov 30 02:41:08 <ckuethe> much better than SiRF
Nov 30 02:41:56 <Writchie> i haven't looked at gpsd but I was thinking that it would be nice to have both NMEA ports and RTCM ports in userland
Nov 30 02:42:16 <ckuethe> you won't get RTCM out of the receiver
Nov 30 02:42:17 <mjr> Turns out interfacing to the pubtransport route planner with coordinates wasn't such a straightforward thing I hoped. Asked them about it; their FAQ tells how to create own links for spesific street names and such so they might even be co-operative
Nov 30 02:42:33 <ckuethe> but if you connect to the gpsd control socket, you can send arbitrary data to the receiver
Nov 30 02:42:40 <Writchie> no AFAIK its an input to the receiver
Nov 30 02:42:51 <roh> ckuethe does gpsd require a real serial as input or should it eat that named pipe gllin uses without change?
Nov 30 02:43:13 <mjr> (_or_ I'll have to search OSM for the nearest street name and give that...)
Nov 30 02:43:29 <ckuethe> gpsd can eat data from pretty much any unix output method (pipe, file, pty, tty, ...)
Nov 30 02:43:46 <roh> so it should be only config wirk
Nov 30 02:43:49 <mjr> yah, at least for me it seems to eat it fine, though I haven't had fixes while testing
Nov 30 02:43:50 <roh> eh work
Nov 30 02:44:18 <mjr> just ipkg install gpsd, and edit /etc/default/gpsd to give the proper pipe
Nov 30 02:44:33 <ckuethe> yeah, that'll work... use gpsd -n though
Nov 30 02:44:48 <mwester-road> didn't work for me, but then I can't get a fix here anyway.
Nov 30 02:44:57 <ckuethe> unless gllin doesn't mind the pipe being opened and closed all the time
Nov 30 02:45:13 <mjr> ckuethe, ack
Nov 30 02:45:18 <mwester-road> That might be the problem; gllin seems to exit if there's nothing eating the data.
Nov 30 02:45:42 <mjr> doesn't seem to mind here
Nov 30 02:46:02 <Writchie> ckuethe: you a ucalgary guy?
Nov 30 02:46:14 <mjr> ckuethe, I presume if I get stuff out from gpspipe -r it means it's gone through gpsd properly :]
Nov 30 02:46:17 <mwester-road> Maybe if I leave that "gz" bit there to eat data from the pipe...
Nov 30 02:47:21 <ckuethe> Writchie: ualberta, soon to be google
Nov 30 02:47:29 <ckuethe> mjr: yep
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Fri Nov 30 02:59:57 2007