**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Fri Jan 18 02:59:57 2008 Jan 18 03:42:04 hi all, after flash the kernel and rootfs, the system can not run, stopped at the splash process about 90% Jan 18 03:42:19 * SpeedEvil tries again. Jan 18 03:42:21 Ok. Jan 18 03:42:29 Have you ever upgraded u-boot? Jan 18 03:42:38 no Jan 18 03:42:43 Right. Jan 18 03:42:50 using the rootfs and kernel here: http://buildhost.openmoko.org/OM2007.2/tmp/deploy/glibc/images/neo1973/ Jan 18 03:42:54 Your problem is probably that jffs2 sucks Jan 18 03:43:10 It gets confused if you copy a smaller image over a larger one Jan 18 03:43:15 SpeedEvil: but the rootfs was mounted Jan 18 03:43:15 this can result in partial booting Jan 18 03:43:25 and massive filesystem corruption Jan 18 03:43:44 even though the copy is OK, the bit left unwiped corrupts. Jan 18 03:43:47 SpeedEvil: need I erase the rootfs before flash new one? Jan 18 03:44:04 yes Jan 18 03:44:07 look at http://www.airdisaster.com/forums/ Jan 18 03:44:08 err Jan 18 03:44:19 http://www.arrowne.com/arrow_worldwide/uk/main.html Jan 18 03:44:21 SpeedEvil: any new rootfs and kernenl? Jan 18 03:44:22 argh Jan 18 03:44:23 hang on Jan 18 03:44:48 thx Jan 18 03:45:57 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Flashing_openmoko Jan 18 03:46:07 search for erase rootfs Jan 18 03:46:12 and do read the cautions Jan 18 03:46:59 SpeedEvil: and where can I find the latest kernel and rootfs? thx Jan 18 03:47:17 Don't know, I use mokomakefile to build my own Jan 18 03:48:29 r u using neo1973 now? Jan 18 03:49:19 http://buildhost.automated.it/OM2007.2/?M=D seems current Jan 18 03:49:20 yea Jan 18 03:49:56 http://buildhost.automated.it/OM2007.2/OpenMoko-openmoko-devel-image-glibc-ipk-P1-Snapshot-20080115-fic-gta01.rootfs.jffs2 in that directory Jan 18 03:50:16 thanks Jan 18 03:50:58 I think http://buildhost.automated.it/OM2007.2/uImage-2.6.22.5-moko11+svnr3801-r13-neo1973.bin is the matching kernel Jan 18 03:52:25 morning all Jan 18 03:53:01 * * OM Bug 1188 has been created by kevin(AT)foreverdean.info Jan 18 03:53:02 * * Entering e-mail address causes "phantom" button presses Jan 18 03:53:03 * * http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=1188 Jan 18 03:53:15 However, the images you have should work adter doing nand erase rootfs Jan 18 03:54:33 SpeedEvil: I got to try, thanks Jan 18 03:57:05 SpeedEvil: firstly flash the kernel or rootfs? Jan 18 03:57:34 I asked earlier and nobody responded, but for the app where one adds contact to the address book, is that application called openmoko-contacts2 and if so, where is it located in SVN? I do not see it in applications and I'm wondering if this is an oversight or if it's actually part of another application. Jan 18 04:02:53 freeflying: kernel is fine Jan 18 04:03:00 SpeedEvil: thanks Jan 18 04:03:15 freeflying: it's only the rootfs that needs the nand erase rootfs done Jan 18 04:06:30 SpeedEvil: I also erase the kernel :) Jan 18 04:07:29 Won't do any harm - but isn't needed - the kernel doesn't suffer from the problem with leftover data Jan 18 04:40:17 anyone there Jan 18 04:40:56 i have a few ?s on the neo before i buy Jan 18 04:42:11 * SpeedEvil is here. Jan 18 04:42:32 er, "3", "Yes", and "Sometimes, but not on alternate Tuesdays". Do those answers match any of your questions? :p Jan 18 04:43:26 * justin111 is greatful of mwester's help thanks Jan 18 04:43:32 And also 'yes, but it's not waterproof, and the vibrate function will drain the battery rapidly'. Jan 18 04:43:49 justin111: just ask. those who are able to answer will do so when they happen to glance back in on this channel from whatever they might be doing right now... Jan 18 04:43:50 @find harald friedman Jan 18 04:43:52 oops Jan 18 04:44:08 * mwester goes to look for harald. Jan 18 04:44:27 is the GTA02 the final hardware for the consumer version Jan 18 04:44:34 No Jan 18 04:44:42 There will hopefully never be final hardware Jan 18 04:44:51 well Jan 18 04:44:55 openmoko will succeed and eventually more and more phones will be released Jan 18 04:45:03 will GTA02 be sold as the consemer version Jan 18 04:45:21 As we understand it, those are the current plans Jan 18 04:45:42 it's going to be at least several months before hardware - with debatably complete software will be available. Jan 18 04:46:24 ok so if i buy one now will i be able to upgrade to consumer software Jan 18 04:46:38 yes - that's the entire point Jan 18 04:46:49 well final for the GTA02 Jan 18 04:46:54 like any company that makese a product Jan 18 04:47:02 it will make a "newer product" Jan 18 04:47:18 The whole idea of openmoko is that you have a tiny bit of per-phone software Jan 18 04:47:31 The kernel drivers basically, and any userspace handlers for them. Jan 18 04:47:39 what is the extent of this linux kernal is it like uclinux or a full blown 2.6 Jan 18 04:47:42 that depends Jan 18 04:47:43 then the rest of the phone stack is 'just' linux Jan 18 04:47:47 justin111: full Jan 18 04:47:47 if phone has no camera Jan 18 04:47:51 no need to put it on Jan 18 04:47:54 add camera for phhone Jan 18 04:48:02 customised ui layout/look to match phone design Jan 18 04:48:11 or screen resolution Jan 18 04:48:13 etc. Jan 18 04:48:17 KDE or GNOME (quick poll) Jan 18 04:48:21 the principle is right Jan 18 04:48:22 justin111: it's basically more similar in many ways to desktop environment software-wise than anything else. Jan 18 04:48:27 avoid doing massive work per phone Jan 18 04:48:31 but it still needs work per phone Jan 18 04:48:40 justin111: neither Jan 18 04:49:12 whats the CPU clock on the neo Jan 18 04:49:20 266Mhz Jan 18 04:49:29 266 on the gta01 Jan 18 04:49:30 400 on the newer version to yet be released Jan 18 04:49:35 gta02 currently is stable at 400 Jan 18 04:49:35 isnt that right round pentium I Jan 18 04:49:40 Pretty much Jan 18 04:49:41 but in theory we can do 500 Jan 18 04:49:47 if we fiddle with volatages a bit Jan 18 04:49:51 It's about the same class as a Jan 18 04:49:52 P100 Jan 18 04:49:56 but we dont have it stable Jan 18 04:50:05 are you a dev raster Jan 18 04:50:08 Only 400 is specced in the datasheet Jan 18 04:50:12 SpeedEvil: the 266? Jan 18 04:50:29 raster: no - the CPU for the freerunner/gta02 Jan 18 04:50:38 SpeedEvil: the 266 is about a p100 Jan 18 04:50:42 probably a bit more Jan 18 04:50:54 last time i checked arm against x86 on a p1 Jan 18 04:50:57 is the ram on the neo Phase change RAM like on IPOD Jan 18 04:51:05 phase change? Jan 18 04:51:12 PRAM Jan 18 04:51:16 like in IPOD Jan 18 04:51:22 the x86 has about a 20% advantage per mhz Jan 18 04:51:23 I'm not aware of the ipod using other than flash Jan 18 04:51:50 so a 100mhz pentium would eb about a 120mhz arm Jan 18 04:51:58 err - no Jan 18 04:52:05 mind u that was the strongarm in the ipaq3660 Jan 18 04:52:14 pentium has significantly faster in some cases - especially FP Jan 18 04:52:29 ok Jan 18 04:52:31 P100-P120 is about right. I booted up my old P100 laptop Jan 18 04:52:31 not for fp Jan 18 04:52:34 for integer Jan 18 04:52:44 im a lil lost Jan 18 04:52:47 Well - the neo CPU has no FPU Jan 18 04:52:49 at all Jan 18 04:53:07 You may be thinking of other ARM devices that do Jan 18 04:53:13 my pentium300mmx vaio was about double the speed of my 206mhz ipaq 3660 Jan 18 04:53:25 my tests had no fp ops Jan 18 04:53:28 integer only Jan 18 04:53:33 justin111: yes. i am Jan 18 04:53:36 * SpeedEvil checks. Jan 18 04:53:45 SpeedEvil: tyhis is from memory Jan 18 04:53:49 also this is p1 Jan 18 04:54:01 much shorter pipelines and much crappier branch prediciton etc. Jan 18 04:54:07 compared to todays x86 Jan 18 04:54:15 and this was strongarm Jan 18 04:54:22 whhic reportedly was kick-arse Jan 18 04:54:25 its memory bus rocked Jan 18 04:54:27 i wish i could program for neo but im only 15 >.> all i have ever done is set up a web server Jan 18 04:54:34 unlike everythnig since Jan 18 04:54:49 justin111: then start learning Jan 18 04:55:00 when i was 15 i was writing games in 68kasm Jan 18 04:55:00 where on earth do i start Jan 18 04:55:12 buy a book Jan 18 04:55:43 what languages does neo support atm python C++ Jan 18 04:56:00 ohoh i think someone needs to port doom to neo Jan 18 04:56:10 i wish i could do that Jan 18 04:56:48 its a linux machine Jan 18 04:56:53 whatever you can put on linux Jan 18 04:57:03 its a full linux kenel, userspace etc., Jan 18 04:57:12 most stuff is done with c/c++ thouhg Jan 18 04:57:21 as its well supported by toolchains and fast Jan 18 04:57:34 could i write simple open GL stuff i Jan 18 04:57:47 neo has no opengl accel Jan 18 04:57:51 oh Jan 18 04:57:57 It's a simple framebuffer Jan 18 04:57:59 porting doom is not useful Jan 18 04:58:03 already been done Jan 18 04:58:03 any 3d Jan 18 04:58:05 though at QVGA it's not so bad Jan 18 04:58:07 It's a simple framebuffer Jan 18 04:58:19 There is _no_ 2d or 3d accel - in this current version Jan 18 04:58:29 oh Jan 18 04:58:39 It can do virtual windows, pallette, and that's about it Jan 18 04:58:42 doom isnt technaclly 3d too Jan 18 04:58:43 right Jan 18 04:59:30 As a benchmark - my PII/300 is 10 times as fast at md5sum /dev/zero as the neo Jan 18 04:59:58 I forgot to time a kernel compile Jan 18 05:00:04 raster what dev are you whats your name Jan 18 05:00:31 im trying to figure out what you do Jan 18 05:01:09 JanC: i'm raster Jan 18 05:01:13 He wanders from side to side, while descending slowly. Jan 18 05:01:14 justin111: i'm raster Jan 18 05:01:15 :) Jan 18 05:02:51 where are you on the dev page are you one of the paid guys Jan 18 05:03:06 SpeedEvil: i did some detailed speed analysis on my gta01 and gta02 Jan 18 05:03:12 trying to find my spreadsheet for it Jan 18 05:03:21 justin111: i work at openmoko Jan 18 05:03:36 Anyway - P100-P150 is probably reasonable for 01 Jan 18 05:03:46 hey i have an idea could you run damn small linux on neo (you know that distro right) Jan 18 05:03:46 maybe more or less in extreme tasks Jan 18 05:03:55 aha Jan 18 05:03:56 justin111: you can run whatever you like Jan 18 05:04:06 justin111: the only problem is some distros are broken on arm Jan 18 05:04:08 these are rendering benchmarks Jan 18 05:04:15 3.0ghz core2 duo Jan 18 05:04:17 863 Jan 18 05:04:24 gta01 Jan 18 05:04:34 serioulsy i could run a full desktop linux distro from my phone Jan 18 05:04:35 13.77 Jan 18 05:04:35 oh Jan 18 05:04:37 rendering Jan 18 05:04:42 gtao2@400mhz Jan 18 05:04:52 13.55 Jan 18 05:05:03 raster: is that simply ignoring the accel chip? Jan 18 05:05:15 no Jan 18 05:05:35 well there is nothing it can do to help Jan 18 05:05:39 O)h - you can't ignore it and get output, I forgot. Jan 18 05:05:40 * justin111 cant belive he is talking to people that work at open moko who are going to change the world Jan 18 05:05:54 * SpeedEvil does not work at OM. Jan 18 05:05:55 if i remove the gfx chip entirely from the picutre and just render to memory Jan 18 05:06:03 15.31 for gta01 Jan 18 05:06:08 20.23 for gta02 Jan 18 05:06:16 so the speedup for the cpu helps Jan 18 05:06:21 but the video bus slows it down Jan 18 05:06:24 The gfx chip is where - on the memory bus? Jan 18 05:06:31 no Jan 18 05:06:34 gta01 it is Jan 18 05:06:38 gta02 its offboard Jan 18 05:06:44 * justin111 but you sound like you help out a lot Jan 18 05:06:48 write speeds to video ram are 30mb/sec Jan 18 05:06:59 I mean writing to the accel chip Jan 18 05:07:05 It's memory mapped? Jan 18 05:07:08 yup Jan 18 05:07:14 its just sloooow Jan 18 05:07:19 That sounds quite slow. Jan 18 05:07:22 we dont have dma yet Jan 18 05:07:25 thats planned - eventually Jan 18 05:07:26 raster: will neo ever have 2d or 3d accel Jan 18 05:07:27 Compared to the memory bus, which is snappy Jan 18 05:07:27 yup Jan 18 05:07:29 ah Jan 18 05:07:38 in the end the gta02 will be about the same as gta01 graphics-wise Jan 18 05:07:42 (speed) Jan 18 05:07:50 we went nowehere fast Jan 18 05:07:53 :) Jan 18 05:08:04 anyway Jan 18 05:08:05 I hope you mean native - before 2d/3d accel :) Jan 18 05:08:07 the main point is Jan 18 05:08:19 oh Jan 18 05:08:21 well yeah Jan 18 05:08:31 speed-wise if i disable display on my desktop i get about 1100 Jan 18 05:08:40 so 1100 vs. 15 vs 20 Jan 18 05:09:13 I suspect my current machine that I'm typin on is closer to 40. Jan 18 05:09:14 so so give or take the gta02 is 2% the speed of a 3ghz core2-duo desktop Jan 18 05:09:20 What's the test? Jan 18 05:09:34 has qtopia gone stable yet Jan 18 05:09:42 and gta01 about 1.4% Jan 18 05:10:11 i would say this desktop is about 200x the speed of the last p300mmx i had Jan 18 05:10:28 i rememebr benchmarks i got were about 1/10th what i got on my p3-800 dual desktop Jan 18 05:10:29 md5sum /dev/zero goes at 22.5M on this PII/300 Jan 18 05:10:33 as a pointless benchmark Jan 18 05:10:40 M/S Jan 18 05:10:45 and i get about 10-20x what that had again Jan 18 05:10:51 how does open moko boot? from a ROM if so how big Jan 18 05:10:56 this is expedite Jan 18 05:11:00 its evas's benchmark suite Jan 18 05:11:09 justin111: basically 128M internal flash Jan 18 05:11:16 so its relatively real-life as it covers a lot of calculations (mostly integer) and lots of mem access Jan 18 05:11:21 justin111: and then up to 8G or so microSD Jan 18 05:11:38 raster: C2D has what - 4 execution units? Jan 18 05:11:39 the ROM is SD internally Jan 18 05:11:48 is there and external one for media Jan 18 05:11:48 justin111: no - there is an additional SD Jan 18 05:11:51 no idea Jan 18 05:12:00 oh ok Jan 18 05:12:08 justin111: microSD Jan 18 05:13:02 i wish i could sound smarter sorry for all the annoying questions thanks for answering them Jan 18 05:13:06 np Jan 18 05:13:16 im pretty sure im gettin a neo now Jan 18 05:13:25 It is _not_ consumer ready Jan 18 05:13:25 qtopia has been stable Jan 18 05:13:31 At least with openmoko Jan 18 05:13:40 I can't speak of Qtopia. Jan 18 05:13:47 not necessarily with power management, though. Jan 18 05:13:51 As a phone, the most basic phone for $20 beats it. Jan 18 05:14:19 how ridiculous is the PM Jan 18 05:14:32 silly. Jan 18 05:14:35 At the moment. Jan 18 05:14:40 There is work going on. Jan 18 05:14:48 But at the moment, 8h standby or so. Jan 18 05:14:53 oh Jan 18 05:15:01 thats not as bad as i thought Jan 18 05:15:14 thats enought to get me thru the day Jan 18 05:15:28 It looks like 40h standby is probably possible - from preliminary tests. Jan 18 05:15:38 And there is work going on on getting to that point Jan 18 05:16:20 neo is GSM correct i think i might have to change carriers if so Jan 18 05:16:33 at first neo would be my toy tho Jan 18 05:16:34 yes - the current one will not work in large slices of america Jan 18 05:16:37 not really a phone Jan 18 05:16:41 There is no 850Mhz support Jan 18 05:17:21 this majorly change my decision Jan 18 05:17:28 idk on buying neo Jan 18 05:17:44 what carrier does GSM that is compatible for neo Jan 18 05:17:58 SpeedEvil: no phont is $20 Jan 18 05:18:00 phone Jan 18 05:18:01 :) Jan 18 05:18:12 raster: $35 then Jan 18 05:18:21 i think the minimum is about $200 Jan 18 05:18:24 prepaid phones are down 2 $15 Jan 18 05:18:27 u are talking a subsidised phone Jan 18 05:18:30 dfoesnt count Jan 18 05:18:31 :) Jan 18 05:18:33 No. Jan 18 05:18:41 I'm talking of a _basic_ phone. Jan 18 05:18:52 ? Jan 18 05:19:41 why is it that out of 247 people its us 3 talking Jan 18 05:19:48 297 Jan 18 05:20:02 everyone else is asleep Jan 18 05:20:07 ? Jan 18 05:20:14 its only 9:30 Jan 18 05:20:16 well Jan 18 05:20:17 ok Jan 18 05:20:24 at least here in oregon Jan 18 05:20:27 US has gone to sleep, UK isn't awake Jan 18 05:20:30 3ghx core2 gets an evas bench of 29.5 Jan 18 05:20:34 You know, there are other timezones too, justin111. Jan 18 05:20:42 ha Jan 18 05:20:44 yeh Jan 18 05:20:44 my p3-800 i originally baselined at 1.0 Jan 18 05:20:44 that leaves us aussies Jan 18 05:20:58 really aussies Jan 18 05:21:00 and i am very sure a p300mmx was getting about 0.1 to 0.15 at the time Jan 18 05:21:30 crickie, mate, ya Jan 18 05:21:32 i wish i could leave USA sometimes just maybe live somewhere else for a year or 2 you know Jan 18 05:21:33 so 30 * 7 at a worst is 210 times faster than a p300mmx Jan 18 05:21:51 the p300mmx is probably about 4x an original p100 Jan 18 05:21:51 I don't think there was p300 Jan 18 05:21:57 gfiven faster mem bus etc. Jan 18 05:21:59 PII300 I think Jan 18 05:22:00 there was Jan 18 05:22:08 I think PI topped out at 233 Jan 18 05:22:12 my sony vaio was a p300mmx Jan 18 05:22:14 nup Jan 18 05:22:22 made it to 300 in its later days Jan 18 05:22:29 like mexico where everyone goes home from 1:00 to 3:00 and takes a nap Jan 18 05:22:43 raster: overclocked? Jan 18 05:22:48 nup Jan 18 05:22:50 from the factory Jan 18 05:22:52 back in 1999 Jan 18 05:22:57 hellz yes for measure ## for mandatory seista Jan 18 05:23:00 VA gave them to all the engineers Jan 18 05:23:36 the 505 Jan 18 05:23:39 not the x505 Jan 18 05:23:54 http://content.answers.com/main/content/img/CDE/_SONY505.GIF Jan 18 05:23:55 that one Jan 18 05:24:03 Ok - looking I guess it's $40 ish Jan 18 05:24:05 http://www.t-mobile.co.uk/shop/mobile-phones/phones/pay-as-you-go/nokia/2310-silver/overview/ Jan 18 05:24:07 for example Jan 18 05:24:20 (cheapest PAYG phone from my current provider) Jan 18 05:24:37 Pay As You Go Jan 18 05:25:07 Wikipedia says pentium tillamook was 300mhz at best. Jan 18 05:25:21 there u go :) Jan 18 05:25:28 anyway Jan 18 05:25:42 slight problem is that i've been optimising this rendering engine for a long time Jan 18 05:25:45 ah - tillamook - I vaguely remember that Jan 18 05:25:50 i may have it 3 times faster than it was back then Jan 18 05:26:02 so lets make it201/3 Jan 18 05:26:05 == 70 Jan 18 05:26:07 err Jan 18 05:26:09 210/3 Jan 18 05:26:12 == 70 Jan 18 05:26:59 whihc actually puts the gta01@266mhz about a p300 Jan 18 05:27:00 :) Jan 18 05:27:10 now - if i had a p300 to run benchmarks on... Jan 18 05:27:33 raster: which I have slight doubts on to some degree - but the memory bus is much faster - so it's probably not way out. Jan 18 05:27:36 anyone have one? Jan 18 05:27:45 No - Just PII/300 Jan 18 05:27:49 hmm Jan 18 05:27:51 alive? Jan 18 05:28:01 Using it at the moment. Jan 18 05:28:05 thaqt u can run somehting on? (and have an actual display/screen)? Jan 18 05:28:08 cool Jan 18 05:28:10 It's 1.1Kg laptop with 8 hour uptime Jan 18 05:28:17 (after re-celling) Jan 18 05:28:24 and internal bluetooth and wifi. Jan 18 05:28:30 (after butchery) Jan 18 05:28:51 gimme 30 secs Jan 18 05:29:51 ok Jan 18 05:29:52 1 min Jan 18 05:29:53 rsyncing Jan 18 05:30:37 I got one pII300 desktop down in the basement. =P Jan 18 05:30:44 hehehe Jan 18 05:31:03 will neo have windows support dont think it should windows users should have the privlage of touching neo they might contaminate it Jan 18 05:31:10 http://www.rasterman.com/files/evas-0.9.9.041.tar.gz Jan 18 05:31:11 that Jan 18 05:31:12 windows is all GUI ewwwwww Jan 18 05:31:13 download Jan 18 05:31:16 justin111: unless windows supports it - no Jan 18 05:31:21 configure && make && make install Jan 18 05:31:22 Coupled with an Athlon xp 2000+ =P Jan 18 05:31:25 MS could port it Jan 18 05:31:35 skrew MS Jan 18 05:31:49 dling Jan 18 05:31:53 http://www.rasterman.com/files/expedite-0.6.0.tar.gz Jan 18 05:31:56 then same with that Jan 18 05:31:59 yay my kubuntu iso is done Jan 18 05:32:17 u might want to do Jan 18 05:32:28 export PKG_CONFIG_PATH=/usr/local/lib/pkgconfig Jan 18 05:32:36 before building expedite Jan 18 05:32:49 when u have that done Jan 18 05:32:58 run expedite -e x11 Jan 18 05:33:06 actually Jan 18 05:33:10 run expedite -e x11 -a Jan 18 05:33:14 that will do all the tests Jan 18 05:33:21 same as i did Jan 18 05:33:23 just wait Jan 18 05:33:28 it will spew out results to stdout Jan 18 05:34:43 jon phillips = raster = head of open moko right? Jan 18 05:34:50 heh Jan 18 05:34:55 he wishes Jan 18 05:35:06 head dev at least right Jan 18 05:35:06 jon philips is head of openmoko? Jan 18 05:35:54 http://rejon.org//media/2007/12/jon_lu_beijing.jpg http://www.rasterman.com/photos/2005-12-xx_europe_holiday-getting_there/pict2555.jpg Jan 18 05:36:02 resemblance Jan 18 05:36:50 wait Jan 18 05:36:53 hahahaha Jan 18 05:36:55 no way Jan 18 05:36:56 second thinking Jan 18 05:37:02 grrr im dumb Jan 18 05:37:03 nvm Jan 18 05:37:25 configuring evas Jan 18 05:37:43 wow i just made an idiot out of myself great first impression eh? Jan 18 05:37:54 raster: the one on the right or the left? Jan 18 05:38:17 i have to go install kubuntu be on l8r tonight or tommarow Jan 18 05:38:22 jon isnt in openmoko Jan 18 05:38:28 he doesnt work for the company at any rate Jan 18 05:38:53 SpeedEvil: this may take a while.... Jan 18 05:38:54 :) Jan 18 05:41:12 SpeedEvil: how to configure the sound volum with latest rootfs? thx Jan 18 05:41:24 I have no idea other than alsactl Jan 18 05:41:38 I haven't been using it as much as a phone as I should Jan 18 05:41:45 or using the software in normal ways Jan 18 05:43:30 ok, thanks Jan 18 05:47:52 SpeedEvil: still compiling? Jan 18 05:48:00 12756 irc 25 0 12268 9.8m 2916 R 53.8 5.2 0:01.63 cc1 Jan 18 05:48:17 ugh Jan 18 05:51:00 My fan went off. Jan 18 05:51:05 looking at other package Jan 18 05:51:58 hi just a q is it possible to preorder a freerunner ? Jan 18 05:52:10 or should i talk to openmoko.com about that Jan 18 05:53:02 Not yet Jan 18 05:53:06 dbmoodb: no - not possible yet Jan 18 05:53:35 ok Jan 18 05:53:47 and with the gps, will openmoko be getting some maps for it ? Jan 18 05:53:56 like google maps maybe from the andriod team ? Jan 18 05:54:17 no Jan 18 05:54:29 Licensing maps is a _horrid_ process Jan 18 05:54:30 nup Jan 18 05:54:38 maps are not open Jan 18 05:54:40 and are expensive Jan 18 05:54:48 Some maps are open. Jan 18 05:54:54 and u'd need to license them per country, state or even city Jan 18 05:54:56 (but not very good yet in most places) Jan 18 05:55:03 SpeedEvil: yes - openstreemaps for example Jan 18 05:55:17 * SpeedEvil points to the GPX traces tagged neo1973 Jan 18 05:55:55 can't we just launch the google andriod framework for the maps part ? Jan 18 05:55:56 dbmoodb: android *IS* google Jan 18 05:56:02 i know Jan 18 05:56:04 and google has licensed use of its maps Jan 18 05:56:07 but if they get maps lets use them Jan 18 05:56:09 google has lots of money to do so Jan 18 05:56:11 if it is possible Jan 18 05:56:12 we dont Jan 18 05:56:18 ok can we ask them ? Jan 18 05:56:28 and no we cant Jan 18 05:56:39 we cant just use android at this tage Jan 18 05:56:45 we dont even know how it would fit in Jan 18 05:57:06 Google pays stupid amounts of money to the primary map-creating companies to have the rights to show maps to users Jan 18 05:57:07 and using their apps doesnt license us use of google maps Jan 18 05:57:18 sure Jan 18 05:57:24 nar i'm asking if we can ask google to use their maps Jan 18 05:57:34 we could Jan 18 05:57:36 For them to get the rights to distribute these maps would be an insane amount of money. Jan 18 05:57:50 but right now we aren't Jan 18 05:57:52 Google has apparent interests in not doing so though. Jan 18 05:58:07 also we cant distribute googles maps Jan 18 05:58:10 never goign to happen Jan 18 05:58:10 (letting others have freeer use of their maps. Jan 18 05:58:12 they are too big Jan 18 05:58:20 we'd need subsets Jan 18 05:58:27 also it'd be a legal minefield Jan 18 05:58:34 google licenses from X Jan 18 05:58:37 That's not perhaps correct - you don't know the size of the underlying vector data Jan 18 05:58:47 we license from google who now needs to invole party X, Y, Z Jan 18 05:58:48 etc. Jan 18 05:58:51 sure Jan 18 05:58:55 and you want the whole world's maps? Jan 18 05:58:57 whihc regions? Jan 18 05:58:58 etc. Jan 18 05:59:01 its just not sane Jan 18 05:59:05 no i would want the region i'm in Jan 18 05:59:16 SpeedEvil: for the world - it'd be monsterous Jan 18 05:59:31 a few gb at least Jan 18 05:59:45 even for a single country map data can be several hundred mb Jan 18 06:00:03 and thats countires like german, france, uk Jan 18 06:00:06 more for the usa Jan 18 06:00:08 etc. Jan 18 06:00:10 again Jan 18 06:00:14 its all a very big problem Jan 18 06:00:27 so what is the plan with the gps then ? Jan 18 06:03:00 raster: it's sitting on a grey blob Jan 18 06:03:07 after a few mins Jan 18 06:03:14 with a text notice if I click it Jan 18 06:03:17 dbmoodb: its a piece of hardware that tells u were you are Jan 18 06:03:19 tyhats about it Jan 18 06:03:20 :) Jan 18 06:03:28 great... i think we can do more than that soon Jan 18 06:03:58 SpeedEvil: grey blob? Jan 18 06:03:59 ŸOh - there it goes. Jan 18 06:04:05 About how long does it take? Jan 18 06:04:11 hmm dunno Jan 18 06:04:22 it takes like a few seconds here Jan 18 06:04:24 10 or so) Jan 18 06:04:28 could take a few mins Jan 18 06:04:31 for you Jan 18 06:05:27 It's on slowly moving loops of text Jan 18 06:05:43 dud u see lots of images? Jan 18 06:05:54 golden e logos and images (photos) move? Jan 18 06:06:18 it almost sounds like evas didnt build the png or jpeg loaders Jan 18 06:06:22 ;3~yes Jan 18 06:06:29 ooh ok Jan 18 06:06:34 those happened - it's just slow I think Jan 18 06:06:41 22046 irc 25 0 7104 4204 3236 R 97.2 2.2 6:22.52 expedite Jan 18 06:07:43 it will consume all your cpu Jan 18 06:07:48 it always does Jan 18 06:07:50 :) Jan 18 06:07:55 its a benchmark suite Jan 18 06:07:56 :) Jan 18 06:08:03 It doesn't seem to be using any of hte X server Jan 18 06:08:14 it does Jan 18 06:08:20 (well - 1/10th of the time in X Jan 18 06:08:20 its just so little compared to the cost of rendering Jan 18 06:12:45 raster: where is the overall number? Jan 18 06:14:09 at the end Jan 18 06:14:13 EVAS_SPEED Jan 18 06:14:17 9 Jan 18 06:14:22 9 Jan 18 06:14:24 OUCH Jan 18 06:14:31 Which is odd. Jan 18 06:14:51 I recently reinstalled X - and XV and accel haven't been working Jan 18 06:14:58 Actually Jan 18 06:15:01 847.64 , EVAS SPEED Jan 18 06:15:03 It may have been thermal throttling Jan 18 06:15:04 is what i get Jan 18 06:15:13 and the numebrs i quoted before for the gta01 & 02 Jan 18 06:15:22 it doesnt use XV anywhere Jan 18 06:15:24 so that wont matter Jan 18 06:15:38 throttling will definitely kill u Jan 18 06:16:01 the compiling before will have heat soaked it I think Jan 18 06:16:05 And the room is hot Jan 18 06:16:16 possibly Jan 18 06:16:29 but the neo is beating u by 50% Jan 18 06:16:47 (as your box stands while its running that) Jan 18 06:18:40 I have serious doubts as to that as a benchmark - everything else - without exception - runs at least a fair bit faster on this box. Jan 18 06:19:00 Compiling, md5sum, mpeg/avi, ... Jan 18 06:19:02 its a valid benchmarkl as such Jan 18 06:19:38 in terms of comput and mem access its heavy Jan 18 06:19:45 note it DOESNT test IO Jan 18 06:19:54 the speed of flash (jff2) on the neo is abysmal Jan 18 06:20:08 Is it unaligned single byte access heavy? Jan 18 06:20:09 the gta01 i think i got 2.5mb/sec read off flash Jan 18 06:20:33 the gta02 is even worse - 190kb/sec from flash Jan 18 06:20:38 no Jan 18 06:20:41 SD or flash? Jan 18 06:20:44 its all aligned mem access Jan 18 06:20:54 unaligned mem access youlr absolutely be murder on an ARM Jan 18 06:20:59 flash Jan 18 06:21:07 Sd doesnt work on gta02 yet Jan 18 06:21:09 I mean random bytes from mem. Jan 18 06:21:36 it will mostly be reading dwords Jan 18 06:21:42 (32bit) Jan 18 06:21:46 and writing lots of them Jan 18 06:21:52 lots of read/modify/write cycles Jan 18 06:21:52 I think this box is SDR33 Jan 18 06:22:02 it may jump about memory a fair bit Jan 18 06:22:20 but within a region it is also likely to have very linear accesses - especially writes Jan 18 06:22:23 In that case it's possible it's wiping out the cache advantage that I usually see Jan 18 06:22:37 it likely is completely destroying your cache Jan 18 06:22:52 but then again - the neo doesnt have any cache to help there either Jan 18 06:22:56 it will be killed off too Jan 18 06:22:59 so same boat Jan 18 06:23:01 which is only 256K, but helps lots Jan 18 06:23:28 No - but for 'real' workloads - the cache usually helps lots Jan 18 06:23:39 and 256vs 16 is generally a big help Jan 18 06:23:57 rendering is a real workload Jan 18 06:24:02 more real than compiling Jan 18 06:24:03 :) Jan 18 06:24:12 on a phone.... Jan 18 06:24:29 * SpeedEvil wonders if there is a povray recipie. Jan 18 06:24:47 video decode is also not a fair compariosn unless you run your desktop @ 16bpp Jan 18 06:24:57 Not usually. Jan 18 06:24:58 and disable any xvideo support/use by the player Jan 18 06:25:07 then its closer to even Jan 18 06:25:09 I do have a 4bpp mode I occasionally use Jan 18 06:25:13 For battery saving Jan 18 06:25:54 on your laptop? Jan 18 06:26:09 yes Jan 18 06:26:33 It's a (IIRC) 10%ish saving at dim screen, with the HD off Jan 18 06:26:48 aaah Jan 18 06:26:53 well that wont help anyway Jan 18 06:27:06 if u want to compare between your p2-300 laptop and a neo Jan 18 06:27:07 No - I wasn't running that now. Jan 18 06:27:12 u need to try and make the playing field as even as possible Jan 18 06:27:25 Though I plan on trying to implement 8 bit mode on the neo - for other reasons. Jan 18 06:27:36 for games? Jan 18 06:27:53 Using it as a dev platform for soemthing else 2410 based Jan 18 06:28:25 aaah Jan 18 06:28:34 but as such the gta01 and 02 are fairly powerful Jan 18 06:28:49 i still think they are a match for a pentium-300 Jan 18 06:29:54 For every app I've tried (CPU bound) apart from that one - the neo is significantly slower. Jan 18 06:30:48 you may have been throttled Jan 18 06:30:51 It is moderately to a fair bit faster than my P100 in some limited tests Jan 18 06:31:03 cat /proc/acpi/.... Jan 18 06:31:04 and see Jan 18 06:31:08 (the P100 laptop has lots its structural integrity) Jan 18 06:31:43 * SpeedEvil wonders why /proc/acpi/thermal_zone is empty Jan 18 06:31:45 It wasn't Jan 18 06:32:10 th only thing it could be is an abysmal video bus on your laptop Jan 18 06:32:22 so copies to the screen are just incredibly slow Jan 18 06:33:56 dunno. Anyway - I'm going back to datasheet reading :/ Jan 18 06:34:08 heheheh Jan 18 06:35:56 Thanks for all the work on the 02 :) Jan 18 06:36:30 np Jan 18 06:36:37 working on it Jan 18 07:30:31 ras: latest run gives 36 - must have been throttled Jan 18 08:09:03 good morning Jan 18 08:19:23 morning Jan 18 09:14:43 openmoko: 03erin_yueh * r3876 10/trunk/src/target/gsm/ (4 files in 4 dirs): gsmd: add 'lgsm_open_n_get' to retrieve the current country code (Sean Chiang) Jan 18 09:48:15 hello Jan 18 09:49:04 is any one here developing on a ubuntu OS? Jan 18 09:57:03 is any one here? Jan 18 09:58:21 i'm awake, and an ubuntu user, but not an OM dev :) Jan 18 09:58:27 aspire: maybe someone can help you without developing on a ubuntu OS? how can we help you Jan 18 09:59:47 right Jan 18 09:59:57 am trying to setup my environment Jan 18 10:00:15 and got to step 4 Jan 18 10:00:21 but this does not seem to work Jan 18 10:00:27 make openmoko-devel-image Jan 18 10:00:59 have found this for ubuntu as a solution, work around Jan 18 10:01:07 Check that /bin/sh (ls -l /bin/sh) is not symbolically linked to dash. "dash" is a POSIX compliant shell that is much smaller than "bash" -- however some broken shell scripts still make use of bash extensions while calling into /bin/sh. Jan 18 10:01:18 but that does not seem to work Jan 18 10:01:31 To work around this issue: Jan 18 10:01:31 sudo dpkg-reconfigure dash Jan 18 10:02:15 openmoko: 03werner * r3877 10/branches/src/target/kernel/2.6.24.x/patches/gta02-bt-fixes.patch: Jan 18 10:02:15 openmoko: Bring back initialization of BT power and enable for GTA02. Jan 18 10:02:15 openmoko: gta02-bt-fixes.patch:" Jan 18 10:02:15 openmoko: - arch/arm/plat-s3c24xx/neo1973_pm_bt.c (gta01_bt_probe): disable LDO and Jan 18 10:02:15 openmoko: assert reset also for GTA02 Jan 18 10:03:19 what can I do to start building? Jan 18 10:05:00 make openmoko-devel-image Jan 18 10:05:00 [ -e stamps/patches ] || \ Jan 18 10:05:01 ( svn co http://svn.nslu2-linux.org/svnroot/mokomakefile/trunk/patches patches ) Jan 18 10:05:07 make: *** [stamps/patches] Error 127 Jan 18 10:06:46 Field: is there any thing you can tell me about this? Jan 18 10:12:12 aspire: hm - I'm sorry, no. But if I find the time..I'll try this out this evening. Jan 18 10:15:10 ljp: ping Jan 18 10:59:48 http://www.thenewfreedom.net/wp/2008/01/16/richard-stallman-cranking-dat-soulja-boy/ Jan 18 11:00:25 opps wrong window...funny tho Jan 18 11:04:57 openmoko: 03chris * r3878 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007.2/applications/openmoko-dialer2/ (4 files in 2 dirs): (log message trimmed) Jan 18 11:04:57 openmoko: * src/phone-kit/moko-listener.c: (moko_listener_on_network_number): Jan 18 11:04:57 openmoko: * src/phone-kit/moko-listener.h: Jan 18 11:04:57 openmoko: Add on_network_number for new lgsm_oper_n_get function Jan 18 11:04:57 openmoko: * src/phone-kit/moko-network.c: (retry_oper_get), Jan 18 11:05:01 openmoko: (retry_opern_get), (stop_retrying), (on_network_registered), Jan 18 11:05:03 openmoko: (on_network_number), (listener_interface_init), (net_msghandler), Jan 18 11:28:16 openmoko: 03thomas * r3879 10/trunk/src/target/ipkg/ (106 files in 4 dirs): * Rename ipkg to opkg Jan 18 11:30:17 openmoko: 03thomas * r3880 10/trunk/src/target/ (156 files in 5 dirs): * Rename top level ipkg directory to opkg Jan 18 12:11:46 openmoko: 03laforge * r3881 10/trunk/src/target/u-boot/patches/ (series uboot-machtypes.patch): Jan 18 12:11:46 openmoko: uboot-machtypes.patch no longer required since upstream u-boot has now picked Jan 18 12:11:46 openmoko: up a much more recent machine type file Jan 18 12:21:05 openmoko: 03chris * r3882 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007.2/panel-plugins/openmoko-panel-memory/ (10 files in 2 dirs): (log message trimmed) Jan 18 12:21:05 openmoko: * AUTHORS: Jan 18 12:21:05 openmoko: * autogen.sh: Jan 18 12:21:05 openmoko: * configure.ac: Jan 18 12:21:05 openmoko: * src/Makefile.am: Jan 18 12:21:07 openmoko: * src/openmoko-panel-memory.c: (blink_idle), (memory_full_cb), Jan 18 12:21:10 openmoko: (mb_panel_applet_create): Jan 18 13:15:18 muhahahaa Jan 18 13:15:41 both my XO and my 8GB microSD arrived today (the latter for the Neo, of course; got a 16GB standard-size SD for the XO :) Jan 18 13:16:16 cool timing ;) Jan 18 13:16:49 yes, time to tinker on the weekend Jan 18 13:16:57 XO? Jan 18 13:17:04 the OLPC laptop Jan 18 13:17:18 I'll give Android on my Zaurus a go, see what breaks ;) Jan 18 13:17:44 now that I've storage space for my neo, a question: Jan 18 13:18:29 haven't followed the QVGA thingy that closely, is QVGA support in the main tree or can one get some patches somewhere? :) Jan 18 13:18:39 Android runtime released, Stephmw? Jan 18 13:18:48 * jorgenpt is lagging behind Jan 18 13:19:45 jorgenpt: naah, someone just hacked their image for the Zaurus in december Jan 18 13:20:18 What image? Jan 18 13:20:56 looking for the link ;) Jan 18 13:21:13 Ah, the emu image? Jan 18 13:21:49 yeah, http://euedge.com/blog/2007/12/06/google-android-runs-on-sharp-zaurus-sl-c760/ Jan 18 13:22:00 Stephmw which zaurus do you have? Jan 18 13:23:35 the 860 Jan 18 13:25:34 i cant believe there's not been a cool hack w. or using the motorola f3 Jan 18 13:30:55 Stephmw wow, i envy you Jan 18 13:33:54 openmoko: 03werner * r3883 10/branches/src/target/kernel/2.6.24.x/patches/gta02-bt-fixes.patch: Jan 18 13:33:54 openmoko: Reversed sanity check cause PCF50633 driver to BUG. Jan 18 13:33:54 openmoko: gta02-bt-fixes.patch: Jan 18 13:33:54 openmoko: - drivers/i2c/chips/pcf50633.c (pcf50633_ena_voltage): fail if we don't have a Jan 18 13:33:54 openmoko: valid register, not if we do Jan 18 13:34:07 kristian-m: I bought it used ;) which reminds me... I need to get a new battery as this one doesn't hold a charge Jan 18 13:35:36 openmoko: 03thomas * r3884 10/trunk/src/target/opkg/opkg_download.c: opkg: fix progress bar Jan 18 13:36:51 Stephmw batteries are the only thing i could get for this deveice in germany :( Jan 18 13:41:51 OPENMOKO Jan 18 13:42:29 hi waldt :-) Jan 18 13:42:38 hi Jan 18 13:45:11 poor kristian-m Jan 18 13:47:25 ^^ Jan 18 13:47:43 why Jan 18 13:48:23 ASS Jan 18 13:48:38 poor Zash Jan 18 13:48:59 SLASHIGNORE Jan 18 13:49:10 hi all ! There is a new forum called Exotics Forum and it has free membership option ! Exotics Adult Forum ::: http://exotics.heavenforum.com/index.htm !... Jan 18 13:49:20 hm, tourettes + irc Jan 18 13:49:37 yes, you are Jan 18 13:51:13 oooh, neoporn.com Jan 18 13:51:18 why Jan 18 13:51:35 oh? Jan 18 13:51:55 bah :( linkfarm Jan 18 13:52:01 why Jan 18 13:52:04 freesmartphone.org: 03emdete * r45 10/trunk/software/gsm0710muxd/data/gsm0710muxd: exec on Jan 18 13:52:21 why Jan 18 14:04:52 using toolchain, you have to do some setup of the enviroment before starting, namely: source /usr/local/openmoko/arm/setup-env if you want to go back to programing for your own computer, how do you undo these changes Jan 18 14:05:02 are they refreshed automatically? Jan 18 14:07:05 by the way, Hi All! Jan 18 14:14:26 <_Krieger_> magellan, maybe source /etc/profile ? Jan 18 14:16:01 I wouldn't know. I have been making an app on my lappy and am ready to try it out on the device. but I want to continue development on the lappy once I try it on the neo Jan 18 14:16:56 magellan just open an other shell for your locaal build Jan 18 14:17:17 source is only setting the environment in the current shell Jan 18 14:17:18 so the changes are local to the shell Jan 18 14:17:22 ack Jan 18 14:17:28 ok great, thanks Jan 18 14:17:33 have fun Jan 18 14:24:28 openmoko: 03thomas * r3885 10/trunk/src/target/opkg/ (libopkg.h opkg_download.c): opkg: add a download progress callback hook to libopkg Jan 18 14:58:02 selam Jan 18 15:04:06 openmoko: 03thomas * r3886 10/trunk/src/target/opkg/opkg_download.c: * Add proxy username/password support Jan 18 15:09:08 is anyone haveing build problems out of openmoko-terminal2? I have to remove if from my build to get the moko makefile to do a full build. the probem is that the fetch from the server fails. how can I get a copy of the app so it doesn't have to go to the server? Jan 18 15:24:14 Does anyone have experience with arm-angstrom-linux-gnueabi-as: unrecognized option `-Qy' while building mokomakefile? Jan 18 15:24:42 I'm having a hard time understanding how the build could pass an invalid argument to an exe that same build created Jan 18 15:24:56 Especially an exe I would expect to be stable, like 'as' Jan 18 15:25:19 Someone being an ashat. Jan 18 15:35:18 so speedevil wanted to chat some more about cpu cycles/battery life thing.... Jan 18 15:36:35 say u have a app which runs continually processing say some xml and u have same app running but using some less intensive method....so overall less cpu cycles...would it be possible to show differences in battery life say on neo now with no power management Jan 18 15:36:52 or insignificant difference Jan 18 15:37:53 zedstar: less significant. Jan 18 15:38:13 Idle-maximum is only 75% or so Jan 18 15:38:49 Once clock frequency stuff goes in, it gets _much_ more significant - like maybe 10% Jan 18 15:39:18 reason im curious is ive heard mention at mobile events of the impact of say java script etc on battery life Jan 18 15:39:54 Basically - once PM is properly implemented, battery life scales much more accurately to CPU usage Jan 18 15:40:14 ok right so need that working for this kind of study Jan 18 15:40:15 Something like CPU% active*0.9 + 10% Jan 18 15:40:36 so at 0% CPU it's 10% battery use, 50%, 45% battery use Jan 18 15:40:41 magellan: _how_ does the fetch at the server fails? Jan 18 15:41:00 magellan: you may want to try bumping your SRCREV Jan 18 15:41:17 zedstar: There is little impact going from 0-3% in your code - but 10-30% may make a perceptible difference. Jan 18 15:42:25 so let me try and understand this... unless the app is hitting up to a certain % of overall cpu it is not gonna be easy to spot difference? Jan 18 15:42:53 zedstar: yes - as there is 10% or so power used even at idle. Jan 18 15:43:23 zedstar: so going from 1-2% CPU use may be the difference between 11% and 12% of maximum battery use Jan 18 15:45:00 ive not done a proper search yet but be cool to find some academic papers of what studies exist Jan 18 15:46:07 do u remember the engergiser bunny adverts.....would like to see that on mobile with different kinds of intensive processing Jan 18 15:46:11 There is little really complex in this. Unless you can suspend-RAM between user interactions - and turn the screen off - CPU idle is always going to be a large slice of power at low speeds. Jan 18 15:46:28 low loads Jan 18 15:46:43 ok can assume screen is off Jan 18 15:46:59 cos this is something continually in background lets say Jan 18 15:47:21 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973_GTA01_Power_Management may be of use Jan 18 15:48:51 thanks will go through that also......im just wondering if talk about different network protocol processing techniques on mobile etc is hype Jan 18 15:49:18 in relation to battery i mean Jan 18 15:49:33 It's irrelevant Jan 18 15:49:50 at the speeds involved, tcp/ip handling by the kernel at least is in the noise Jan 18 15:50:01 even with 802.11g Jan 18 15:50:17 If you mean lowest level protocol Jan 18 15:51:03 no from higher up the stack....mallocing of memory for processing data of xml or whatever Jan 18 15:52:14 For GSM, it's irrelevant, as the data rate is near zero Jan 18 15:52:38 And unlesss you're especially stupid, you can't make that use apprecible CPU Jan 18 15:52:58 The CPU inn the GTA01/freerunner is actually quite fast. Jan 18 15:53:19 It stomps all over PCs of 10 years ago. Jan 18 15:53:29 yeh! Jan 18 15:54:45 a study also then is to show talk of this is irrelevant within context Jan 18 15:55:37 Broadly - with even semi-optimised native code, you shouldn't have problems. Jan 18 15:55:39 hey guys Jan 18 15:55:55 kristian-m: is there a new version of settingsgui around? Jan 18 15:56:08 i've tried the 0.8 beta but it just hangs and goes nowhere on the 'init' screen .. Jan 18 15:56:22 Once you get to the trend today of increasing layers of abstraction and multiple overlaid languages and protocols with lots of layers of conversionn to go fromm network - user - there may be a problem Jan 18 15:56:43 ok yeh this is what i am interesting in seeing Jan 18 15:57:01 wherre this becomes noticable etc Jan 18 15:57:09 For example. XML. Jan 18 15:57:25 It's fine when you're parsing a ten element list. Jan 18 15:57:28 yeh well exactly xml actually compared to a more light weight approach Jan 18 15:57:58 If as some apps do you use it as a storage format that causes problems in many ways. Jan 18 15:58:29 yeh....im quite interesting in seeing how say xml compares to say s-expressions in this context Jan 18 15:58:31 A) It's large - so you need a decompression stage first - or alternatively get hit by slow access speeds typical on mobiles. Jan 18 15:59:06 B) The format is variable and not trivially parsed taking in all the edge cases. This meeans it's slow. Jan 18 15:59:39 i did some studies compressing xml with gzip and that was poor also Jan 18 15:59:41 C) Once yyou've parsed it, you often havve to convert tthe dataa into other formatss from its 'native' xml represeentation. Jan 18 15:59:53 This alsso takes time. Jan 18 16:00:14 Versus skipping the whole lot, and using a binary or simplle flat-text savefile Jan 18 16:00:25 yeh most people dont take c) into account.... s-expressions are in built in languages like lisp and scheme for example Jan 18 16:01:18 for embedded ASN.1 is far more suitable than XML and 90% of the time you can manipulate the values directly in memory Jan 18 16:01:23 ive costed some stuff with PAYG with xml etc compared to other stuff but what i havent done is examined CPU issues Jan 18 16:01:40 As a horribly overbroad statement, you shouldn't be coding anything on a mobile platform if you don't know how many machine cycles your next line of code will take. Jan 18 16:02:17 i actually use the ASN.1 approach and use packed encoding rules myself Jan 18 16:02:31 but it is not easy for developers compared to xml etc Jan 18 16:02:42 zedstar: then they should learn to count :-) Jan 18 16:02:58 lol XorA yeh Jan 18 16:03:01 s/on.*form// Jan 18 16:04:54 a big issue with XML stuff if u on GPRS is the extra packets over very poor latency Jan 18 16:04:55 not good Jan 18 16:05:41 i am racking up ping times in seconds on my vodafone payg frequently Jan 18 16:19:34 SpeedEvil: re cycles per line of code, I think that's a pretty excessive stance to take for app code Jan 18 16:20:00 If you're spending time thinking about # of cycles taken on a machine that's running 200 million cycles per second, you're wasting time Jan 18 16:20:03 wurp2: depends on the app Jan 18 16:20:31 I don't mean absolute cycles - I mean orders of magnitude. Jan 18 16:20:39 cjb_ie: Sure, if it's low level 3d rendering code, or encoding/decoding mp3s Jan 18 16:20:48 SpeedEvil: I'll certainly buy that Jan 18 16:21:14 'printf takes 1000 cycles' or 'xmlparsemegabyte takes a hundred million' Jan 18 16:21:35 There is the danger in high level languages of naively issuing a 'objTree = xmlParser.loadFrom(somefile)' and not realizing what that entails Jan 18 16:21:50 heh Jan 18 16:21:54 Yeah. Jan 18 16:22:13 A simple line of code can often result in an explosion of recursion into libraries. Jan 18 16:22:20 very true Jan 18 16:22:43 When in some cases, it can be done easily in one or two lines of lower-level code with no significant loss of readability, portability. Jan 18 16:22:52 agreed Jan 18 16:23:04 especially in the xml vs binary formatted file case Jan 18 16:23:12 yeah. Or even text vs xml Jan 18 16:23:53 there is definitely a trend to gloss over all this now......i would just like to see some concrete figures for impact on things like the network, battery life etc Jan 18 16:25:18 I was musing on that generally in my blog yesterday, the sheer amount of energy (and waste) used due to inefficient code and the cascading effect it has... Embedded certainly makes you look at that much more. Jan 18 16:26:00 be interesting to see how the dumbing down approach of android has on this as well Jan 18 16:35:12 whats the url of your blog kdean06? any openmoko stuff in it? i like reading openmoko blog stuff me Jan 18 16:36:39 I've only had my Neo for a few days and I'm not (much of) a programmer so there's nothing technical. I've got a pretty wordy account of my first day with the Neo (including pictures). Jan 18 16:36:56 My site is http://www.monochromementality.com/ Jan 18 16:37:17 The most current blog post, and the one prior to it, are OpenMoko/Neo related. Jan 18 16:39:05 thanks Jan 18 16:39:32 No problem. Jan 18 17:02:17 i just installed todays devel-image; is there any solution to this: "alsactl: load_state:1327: No soundcards found..." ? http://opensource.wolfsonmicro.com/~gg/neo1973/gsmheadset.working.state worked with septembers image, but not todays. Jan 18 17:12:33 new package system in om? Jan 18 17:12:37 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Opkg Jan 18 17:13:25 I noticed the commit, I forgot to check up on it. Jan 18 17:13:44 I think it's just a re-name to avoid confusion, but thanks for the reminder. :) Jan 18 17:14:07 :) Jan 18 17:14:19 Oh, no, there are some actual improvements. Cool. Jan 18 17:14:29 :O Jan 18 17:14:33 great Jan 18 17:15:26 So, is this official or just a proof-of-concept thing? Will Opkg be replacing ipkg as OpenMoko's package manager and how will that affect the toolchain Jan 18 17:16:02 OM Inc. is trying to put some fresh blood into the stale ipkg Jan 18 17:16:15 subtle changes first Jan 18 17:16:19 Makes sense. :) Jan 18 17:16:20 more radical things later Jan 18 17:16:28 opkg makes more sense from a branding perspective too. Jan 18 17:16:49 thanks :) Jan 18 17:19:45 please, anyone have any idea how to get the soundcard working? everything else is finally working perfectly, except sound. :/ Jan 18 17:34:15 nwps, have you tried alsactl -f /etc/alsa/stereoout.state restore ? Jan 18 17:34:39 there are other *.state files that correspond to different routes for getting sound into and out of the system in /etc, too. Jan 18 17:37:17 tonyg: yeah, i tried that. it gives me "No soundcards found". also: Jan 18 17:37:17 root@fic-gta01:/etc$ cat /proc/asound/cards Jan 18 17:37:18 --- no soundcards --- Jan 18 17:40:14 eep. that's scary, nwps. Jan 18 17:40:19 I'll try it on mine Jan 18 17:41:30 root@fic-gta01:~$ cat /proc/asound/cards Jan 18 17:41:31 0 [neo1973 ]: WM8753 - neo1973 Jan 18 17:41:31 neo1973 (WM8753) Jan 18 17:41:45 what kernel are you running? Jan 18 17:41:46 mine is: Jan 18 17:41:52 Linux fic-gta01 2.6.22.5-moko11 #1 PREEMPT Sat Dec 1 03:40:58 CET 2007 armv4tl unknown Jan 18 17:41:58 (uname -a) Jan 18 17:42:18 exactly the same. Jan 18 17:42:48 Linux fic-gta01 2.6.22.5-moko11 #1 PREEMPT Fri Jan 18 09:32:57 GMT 2008 armv4tl unknown Jan 18 17:43:21 i guess there's something broken with the latest dev-image / rootfs? Jan 18 17:43:50 Some others have reported that too Jan 18 17:43:52 Perhaps. You could try an older kernel. Jan 18 17:43:56 In recent days Jan 18 17:44:07 Maybe the last week? Jan 18 17:44:20 ftr, the dec 1 kernel I'm running has been usably stable for me Jan 18 17:45:37 The only problems I've had that are viable to me were in today's snapshot, actually. Jan 18 17:46:40 can you name a developer i should maybe contact, so we could get this fixed? Jan 18 17:47:27 unless they already know about this. Jan 18 17:48:29 nwps, do you have any dmesg output? Jan 18 17:48:36 ... relevant to the problem, I mean Jan 18 17:50:46 wait a second and i'll check.. Jan 18 17:53:56 http://upload.nwps.ws/files/openmoko-dmesg.txt Jan 18 17:55:12 nwps, my untrained eyes can't see anything obvious there :/ Jan 18 17:56:38 check whether your modules match Jan 18 17:59:24 mickeyl: sorry, what do you mean by that? Jan 18 18:00:23 is it remotely feasible that fic would release a cdma phone? Jan 18 18:00:51 summatusmentis: very unlikely Jan 18 18:00:57 nwps: check /lib/modules/<...> Jan 18 18:01:03 perhaps your installed modules don't match your kernel version Jan 18 18:01:13 at least that's what I would read out from the dmesg Jan 18 18:01:23 since there are so many unresolved symbols Jan 18 18:01:30 mickeyl: ok, so then the only way that'd happen would be to hack a current cdma phone Jan 18 18:01:44 i'm afraid so, yes Jan 18 18:01:52 i can't comment on the strategy, of course Jan 18 18:01:57 is OM running on any that we know of? Jan 18 18:01:58 but as an insider, i'd say it's unlikely at this point Jan 18 18:02:14 ok, bummer Jan 18 18:03:02 As an outsider - the companies control access to the CDMA market in ways that just aren't there in the GSM one. Anyone at all can make a GSM phone (barring appropriate RF authority licensing issues) Jan 18 18:03:28 All you then need to do is to plug your SIM into your new phone. Jan 18 18:03:34 mickeyl: i have only /lib/modules/2.6.22.5-moko11/ there. Jan 18 18:03:42 yeah, I figured that might be the barrier. Although verizon is opening up it's network soon Jan 18 18:03:52 nwps: hmm, strange. then i'd advise to use an earlier version Jan 18 18:04:03 the daily builds are not tested Jan 18 18:04:13 you should only use them if you're _really_ into bleeding edge Jan 18 18:04:19 For CDMA, the phone is per-network, and not authorised in the same way - the SIM is integral to the phone. It's not possible to make a phone and use it on a CDMA network without permission Jan 18 18:04:21 and can fix problems Jan 18 18:05:46 so then I should probably just switch providers assuming I want to use OM Jan 18 18:05:59 yeah Jan 18 18:06:00 go gsm Jan 18 18:06:00 :) Jan 18 18:06:10 summatusmentis: or pick a GSM phone if your existing provider does thart. Jan 18 18:06:16 'ndeed Jan 18 18:06:24 However, at the moment the GTA01 will not work on 850Mhz - so beware of that Jan 18 18:06:44 true Jan 18 18:06:48 SpeedEvil: no, my existing provider is cdma, and cdma works best in the places I'll be 90% of the time Jan 18 18:07:06 you'd have to wait for the FreeRunner Jan 18 18:07:13 summatusmentis: some do both as I understand it. Jan 18 18:07:30 some providers do both? Jan 18 18:07:38 summatusmentis: yes Jan 18 18:07:42 at&t/cingular has a nasty grandfathered mix Jan 18 18:07:54 summatusmentis, Verizon is indeed migrating to a GSM based network, but last I knew they've never actually said the move was to actually be more open - they could still find ways to restrict people on their networks. Jan 18 18:08:17 although they AT&T is really only growing the GSM part of their (patchwork) network. Jan 18 18:08:23 kdean06: they just came out and said they'll be allowing 3rd party devices on their network, in 08 Jan 18 18:08:42 I was under the impression that vzw was all cdma Jan 18 18:09:54 Open works the otehr way too. :) Will they stop offering their "Verizon Exlcusive" phones? Will all plan options be there for "3rd party" phones that support them? That has yet to be seen. I really DO hope they're opening, but Verizon is one of the most restrictive companies I've ever dealt with and I can't easily fathom such a dramatic change. Jan 18 18:10:10 mickeyl: can i use an older kernel with todays root filesystem? Jan 18 18:10:28 nwps: i don't know that Jan 18 18:10:30 kdean06: agreed, but it's at least an option Jan 18 18:10:36 i'm not building these files Jan 18 18:10:45 but generally, due to changes in defconfig Jan 18 18:10:50 kdean06: a quick google shows that vzw will be moving to gsm for 4g network Jan 18 18:10:55 matching kernel and rootfs always sounds like a good thing Jan 18 18:11:03 freerunner doesn't support 3g, let alone 4g Jan 18 18:12:18 there's no 4g networks deployed anywhere yet? Jan 18 18:12:35 only 3,5, hsdpa 7.2Mbps or hsupa? Jan 18 18:13:30 maito: I don't know if there are or not, but my point is, if I wanted to go to verizon because I wanted a gsm provider, I'd be waiting quite a while to use a neo product, you know? Jan 18 18:20:02 * CM does a powersupply transplant Jan 18 18:33:45 anyone knows if there is any gsm provider in germany which is going to offer a openmoko compatible phone? Jan 18 18:34:36 Unlikely any Jan 18 18:34:57 depends if you wish to remove wm6 from t-mobiles phones :-) Jan 18 18:34:58 I personally would be astonished at any compatible phones coming out before christmas 2009. Jan 18 18:37:48 Or rather. Jan 18 18:38:02 Phones with openmoko installed on them and sold in the shops as any other phone. Jan 18 18:39:52 maybe i can scrounge a flasher for nokia devices. but do i really want to buy any nokia mobiles again? Jan 18 18:44:17 hoi Jan 18 18:44:31 hoi Jan 18 18:45:12 hoi playya :) Jan 18 18:53:30 can someone help me with this problem => http://pastebin.com/d458b42a3 Jan 18 18:57:11 mmm colors Jan 18 18:58:43 anrp, abused some lsd. or why do you taste colors? Jan 18 19:02:53 magellan: you can grab the source from here http://celtune.morb-design.com/openmoko-terminal2_svn.openmoko.org_.trunk.src.target.OM-2007.2.applications_3542_.tar.gz Jan 18 19:02:54 mickeyl: i got it work! whee! Jan 18 19:03:08 * biberao thows a cookie to nwps Jan 18 19:04:07 to work, even. Jan 18 19:04:23 nwps: excellent. how? Jan 18 19:04:23 i downloaded modules-2.6.22.5-moko11+svnr3874-r13-neo1973.tgz, unpacked it to /media/card and copied lib/modules/2.6.22.5-moko11/kernel/sound to /lib/modules/ Jan 18 19:04:32 good. Jan 18 19:04:34 module mismatch then Jan 18 19:04:36 as i expected Jan 18 19:04:44 how much is openmoko? Jan 18 19:04:58 when do you start offering a cellphone like that Jan 18 19:05:02 in poor countries? Jan 18 19:05:03 :P Jan 18 19:06:38 * biberao steals nwps's cookie Jan 18 19:09:01 hihih Jan 18 19:18:02 biberao: $300 for neo1973 GTA01 phone Jan 18 19:18:11 OpenMoko is free and Free Jan 18 19:18:24 But you need compatible hardware to get an use out of the openmoko free software Jan 18 19:18:56 wurp2 ya Jan 18 19:18:59 i meant the phone Jan 18 19:19:00 :P Jan 18 19:19:02 And the best hardware is the FIC phone, which is $300. And of course that's not consumer ready; it's for ppl who want to hack. Jan 18 19:19:13 distribution to the poor countries Jan 18 19:19:13 lol Jan 18 19:19:29 ok im joking Jan 18 19:19:29 :P Jan 18 19:19:33 I think you'll have to wait 5 years for the phones to be $10 Jan 18 19:19:36 :-) Jan 18 19:19:59 ihhi Jan 18 19:20:07 I think as long as you're never away from a charger for more than 4 hours at a time you can use the 01 as your primary phone Jan 18 19:20:40 whats wrong with it? Jan 18 19:20:45 4 hours, christ on a bike Jan 18 19:20:50 otherwise it really can't be a phone for you, just a toy that runs linux, and is a gps, and plays audio & video media, and as a mobile programming platform Jan 18 19:21:01 power management software isn't done Jan 18 19:21:06 ah i see Jan 18 19:21:15 so why not doing whats needed first Jan 18 19:21:16 :P? Jan 18 19:21:22 And there are intermittently problems with phone calls Jan 18 19:21:26 Well, they are Jan 18 19:21:42 What's needed right now is the drivers for the '02 so they can validate the hardware and start producing the next model Jan 18 19:21:58 I believe there's something coming soon for power management, though Jan 18 19:22:07 "something"! Jan 18 19:22:20 so what makes me buy a phone Jan 18 19:22:21 as in "see that second battery we shipped you? use it" Jan 18 19:22:24 that i need to charge everyday? Jan 18 19:22:25 :p Jan 18 19:22:25 * anrp coughs Jan 18 19:22:31 It's more complicated than it sounds - you have to put all drivers in a compatible state before going into low power mode, then recover them properly Jan 18 19:22:40 i see Jan 18 19:22:44 wurp2 you're a developer too? Jan 18 19:22:51 Uh, it is very clear on the site that the phone right now is for people who want to hack with it Jan 18 19:23:12 so offer the phones Jan 18 19:23:12 I am a developer, although not much of an openmoko developer yet Jan 18 19:23:12 :P Jan 18 19:23:13 Lo Jan 18 19:23:17 :PP Jan 18 19:23:27 I have only written a few little python programs on it Jan 18 19:23:38 my sis Jan 18 19:23:43 hates snakes Jan 18 19:23:43 .P Jan 18 19:28:41 im enjoying be here Jan 18 19:28:46 this network has a lot of developers Jan 18 19:28:47 .p Jan 18 20:09:48 Restarting my mokomake from scratch (yet again) Jan 18 20:10:12 I hacked a little script to get past the problems with the *-as exe not understanding -Qy Jan 18 20:10:46 but apparently the *-as exe was screwed up way more than just that, because then I get a ton of error messages indicating that *-as doesn't understand any of the assembler code it's being sent Jan 18 20:12:39 any way to debug gprs connection failing. all i'm getting is: "Connect script failed"? Jan 18 20:14:55 Sorry, I have no idea Jan 18 20:19:53 Marcel_M: you sent me a message a few hours back and It helped and I am back up and running. I wanted to say thanks even though its a bit late Jan 18 20:25:07 magellan: np, nice to see it helps Jan 18 20:25:33 http://www.flickr.com/photos/nwps/2201113153/ :) Jan 18 20:38:14 nwps: What was your connection script problem? Jan 18 20:52:59 wurp2: didn't actually solve it. i used usbnet to take that picture. :( Jan 18 20:54:28 :-( Jan 18 20:54:34 back Jan 18 20:54:37 I didn't notice the cord in the pic Jan 18 20:54:48 it was unplugged. :D Jan 18 20:54:53 haha Jan 18 20:54:56 nwps: I actually beat on bluetooth for a while before I finally gave up Jan 18 20:54:57 hah Jan 18 20:55:03 bluetooth networking Jan 18 20:55:04 Marcel_M: what are you using your neo to do? Jan 18 20:55:32 I could get local networking going, and I think at one point I even had routing going, but I never got DNS up Jan 18 20:55:51 I started getting fancy & broke my local networking before I got any farther Jan 18 20:56:34 what do you need a dns server for? isnt there a /etc/resolv.conf? Jan 18 20:56:42 sagem my411x sucks? Jan 18 20:56:55 the /etc/resolv.conf is set to 192.168.0.202 Jan 18 20:56:57 the /etc/resolv.conf is set to 192.168.0.200 Jan 18 20:57:15 for example 4.2.2.2 is free and open :P Jan 18 20:57:35 I didn't mean a dns server, I mean I never got /etc/resolve.conf with the right value while I had the rest of it working Jan 18 20:57:44 I seemed to lose connections very frequently Jan 18 21:03:20 magellan: right now not much (mostly routing), ill think the gta01 will become my car-cp (routing, musik,gsm) when the freerunner is out Jan 18 21:03:59 What's this "gold" port on the right side of the Neo1973 ? Jan 18 21:04:08 GPS antenna Jan 18 21:04:17 The USB icon on the taskbar, does that incicate that a USB connection is plugged in or does it indicate that USB networking is up? I'm working on some documentation but i'm not sure exactly what that signifies. :) Jan 18 21:04:20 right, you can put a gps antenna in there Jan 18 21:04:31 to amplify the GPS signal ? Jan 18 21:04:37 yes Jan 18 21:04:40 CVirus: yes Jan 18 21:04:44 I see Jan 18 21:04:46 thanks alot Jan 18 21:04:47 and it really is a huge improvemend if you do it Jan 18 21:04:47 CVirus: or to put it in a better place Jan 18 21:06:18 CVirus: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973_as_radio_replacement Jan 18 21:06:24 there is a gps antenna in use ;) Jan 18 21:07:03 borg_: thanks Jan 18 21:07:14 http://wiki.openmoko.org/images/c/c0/Neo_golf2_1.jpg Jan 18 21:07:19 137 fixes, no fails Jan 18 21:07:24 thats really nice :) Jan 18 21:09:11 * biberao punches nwps Jan 18 21:09:31 borg_: that is quite nice Jan 18 21:10:02 i used this it to find the 24c3 in berlin with navit :) works quite nice Jan 18 21:10:13 s/it// Jan 18 21:10:13 borg_ meant: i used this to find the 24c3 in berlin with navit :) works quite nice Jan 18 21:11:14 borg_: heh, not that that is hard to do once you hit the Alexanderplatz ;) Jan 18 21:11:29 right Jan 18 21:12:02 i had some problems to find a parking space after finding the congress center Jan 18 21:12:10 and the neo couldn help me there either ;) Jan 18 21:12:22 ah hmm no, I tend to come by train. Jan 18 21:28:12 Agh, I just found out my phone wasn't shipped until Tuesday night, and isn't expected here until Monday :-( Jan 18 21:28:17 bye gtg Jan 18 21:28:23 take care Jan 18 21:28:43 Weekend shipping SUCKS. Jan 18 21:28:49 I feel your pain. Jan 18 21:29:24 you should take a look at france Jan 18 21:29:26 shipping Jan 18 21:29:26 :P Jan 18 21:29:31 i got two digital cameras Jan 18 21:29:34 for de price of one Jan 18 21:29:38 two equal Jan 18 21:29:38 :P Jan 18 21:33:16 Did you had problem with your credit-card ? Mine is refused, my bank can't help me and openmoko sale don't answer :'( Jan 18 21:42:01 starox: nope Jan 18 21:42:28 Oh YES ! http://www.pulster.eu/ have decreased their price, hope I'll be more lucky with them :) Jan 18 21:44:45 It's very weird to see the neo in a product line up like it was any other phone :-) Jan 18 21:44:48 wurp2: I don't understand why my mastercard is refused, there is no reason. I made 4 tries to make sure and absolutely certain I don't had make typo. I'm unlucky, that's all Jan 18 21:45:08 starox: could be a couple of reasons. Jan 18 21:45:14 I notice also that they say Freerunner w/ sw due in early summer 2008 Jan 18 21:45:22 which I don't think I believe Jan 18 21:45:31 starox: in my case it's usually different spelling of my name, or address the card is registered to. Jan 18 21:45:39 starox: note however that the shipping is less than $100 now Jan 18 21:45:49 $50 is typ Jan 18 21:46:09 80$ :) on openmoko for france Jan 18 21:46:15 k Jan 18 21:46:51 2 years warranty? Jan 18 21:46:52 LarstiQ: I check that, I copy exactly what was written on my card including "mr" Jan 18 21:46:54 that may be of use Jan 18 21:47:13 FICs 'warranty' would be normally illegal herer Jan 18 21:47:34 SpeedEvil: I think the 2 years warranty is in the european law Jan 18 21:48:04 I find that kind of funny, actually. :P Jan 18 21:48:33 I'm not sure though, I notice german products had these 2 years warranty Jan 18 21:52:46 starox: I forget the distinctions, but there is a basic level of warranty you have to offer and can not get out of. But anything extra you are free to do whatever you want. Jan 18 21:57:56 http://buildhost.automated.it/screenshots/neo1973_011_main.jpg < is that qtopia? Jan 18 21:59:59 no Jan 18 22:01:18 should i have the same settingsgui somewhere? i have latest kernel-image & rootfs, but can't find that. Jan 18 22:03:02 This is crazy, snapshots that worked without issue two days ago are crapping out on me today. :S Jan 18 22:03:31 nwps: settingsgui is optional -- you can build it or ipkg install it Jan 18 22:03:56 quicksand: ah, thanks! Jan 18 22:59:05 * pike_ glances at the topic Jan 18 22:59:09 * pike_ sighs Jan 18 22:59:39 QT is now GPLv3 Jan 18 22:59:52 http://trolltech.com/company/newsroom/announcements/press.2008-01-18.1601592972 Jan 18 23:05:39 kdean06: You have a working version of MokoMake? Jan 18 23:07:00 Not any time recently. Jan 18 23:07:06 :-( Jan 18 23:07:19 I have built & rebuilt, and it always fails the same way Jan 18 23:07:44 I hacked around it, but that exposed that the failure is much bigger than it first appears Jan 18 23:09:49 Time to go home Jan 19 00:57:23 is there a free software tool with which i can open the neo cad/schematics files? **** ENDING LOGGING AT Sat Jan 19 02:59:56 2008