**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Mon Feb 04 02:59:57 2008 Feb 04 02:59:59 smlsfb: still have to test on the real device, which I probably will do only tomorrow (it's already a whole hour past midnight here) Feb 04 03:00:12 ah, that sounds fair Feb 04 03:55:46 will the moko come Feb 04 04:03:12 geezz. usb1 is slow Feb 04 04:11:59 indeed Feb 04 05:53:18 still projected release for March? Feb 04 06:01:54 X704, until further notice Feb 04 06:02:51 ok Feb 04 06:03:06 because this phone sucks... lol Feb 04 06:03:17 this phone does not suck Feb 04 06:03:34 (I was talking about my current phone) Feb 04 06:03:34 drools over the freerunner Feb 04 06:03:38 oh ... Feb 04 06:03:46 i second that motion then Feb 04 06:03:50 which _Does_ suck Feb 04 06:03:55 heh Feb 04 06:04:16 I can't do anything interesting with it :/ Feb 04 06:05:06 I can't wait to be able to compile programs and run a web server from the Neo1973/moko Feb 04 06:05:15 rofl Feb 04 06:05:52 you can do that on a pic chip that is not the best part of the openmoko - i'm thinking apache, mt-daapd, ssh, avahi, pidgin, Feb 04 06:06:02 kismet :) Feb 04 06:06:18 well, yeah... Feb 04 06:06:37 did not even think about ssh... :) Feb 04 06:06:46 hmm Feb 04 06:06:50 * dbmoodb ....hits head Feb 04 06:09:55 if I get one I should probably think of a small foldable bluetooth keyboard Feb 04 06:10:24 yes same idea as me but you can get cheap foldable usb ones Feb 04 06:10:39 it has a USB port? Feb 04 06:10:46 .... ... yes Feb 04 06:10:56 I spoze it should... heh Feb 04 06:13:14 so yeah... I want a Neo1973/moko and an X43 plane Feb 04 06:13:44 what is an x42 plane Feb 04 06:14:15 the fastest plane that uses air for propulsion Feb 04 06:14:26 mach 10 :) Feb 04 06:14:32 link me ? Feb 04 06:14:41 http://www.nasa.gov/missions/research/x43-main.html Feb 04 06:14:53 pft Feb 04 06:15:24 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikoyan_MiG-35 Feb 04 06:15:45 go the mig Feb 04 06:16:33 its still not as fast as the X43 :P Feb 04 06:16:44 and... i have big guns and movement Feb 04 06:18:23 + it is cheaper Feb 04 06:18:58 I'm not really talking about combat airplanes... lol Feb 04 06:19:05 nor was i Feb 04 06:19:08 winks Feb 04 06:19:42 :P Feb 04 06:23:22 common openmoko take my money i want the phone :) lol Feb 04 06:26:35 it will be like a laptop that happens to be a cellphone (once its released) Feb 04 06:26:49 * cb22 wants the u810 Feb 04 06:27:39 no it will be like my nas device- so seamless my X family member turns off the power to the study during a storm and forgets to turn it off Feb 04 06:27:54 the keyboard will just be a fun feature Feb 04 07:24:26 who broke mtpaint? Feb 04 08:13:13 good morning Feb 04 09:21:10 freesmartphone.org: 03emdete * r69 10/trunk/software/gsm0710muxd/ (data/gsm0710muxd.conf src/gsm0710muxd.c): Feb 04 09:21:10 freesmartphone.org: enhanced logging Feb 04 09:21:10 freesmartphone.org: added dbus policy Feb 04 09:43:00 works here rwhitby Feb 04 09:43:36 ScaredyCat: OE revision 5832c7c5be46599da8552b5edb54111b13dea59c ? Feb 04 09:43:58 de32d6a54e66ed8cf78ffc60c629cf5cd3b38fd5 Feb 04 09:44:44 ScaredyCat: ah, so you're not using the OM repo then. Feb 04 09:45:08 (which is my point, someone didn't test openmoko-feed before upgrading the stable repo) Feb 04 09:45:12 no, oe dev Feb 04 09:45:21 ah yes.. Feb 04 09:45:32 ScaredyCat: if it was broken there I would have reported it in #oe ;-) Feb 04 09:45:48 it wasnt me Feb 04 09:46:01 but openmoko-feed fails for me anyway... evas, epdf or sommat, so I buil round that Feb 04 09:46:25 isn't there supposed to be a revision manager.... Feb 04 09:46:26 :P Feb 04 09:46:33 * XorA points at john Feb 04 09:47:20 * ScaredyCat gets the electrodes ready Feb 04 09:47:54 * XorA was too busy with qtopia to be messing with feeds Feb 04 09:55:38 you not done that yet XorA? Feb 04 09:55:54 ScaredyCat: its in OM repo for few days now Feb 04 09:56:06 ScaredyCat: hopefully the daily builds have a qtopia build Feb 04 09:56:33 mmmm... not oe dev ? Feb 04 09:57:21 ScaredyCat: no, there are problems with qtopia which mean Its not a high enough quality for OE.dev and zecke is working on an alternate solution Feb 04 09:58:08 isn't OM supposed to be clean/stable ? Feb 04 09:58:15 and oe.dev errm dev ? Feb 04 09:58:36 * ScaredyCat stfu Feb 04 09:59:19 ScaredyCat: OE has standards, OM cant violate those Feb 04 09:59:43 ScaredyCat: the fact qtopia build needs stuff from host is breach of standards Feb 04 09:59:56 oe has standards? really? Feb 04 10:04:37 morning Feb 04 10:05:05 hi TRIsoft Feb 04 10:05:38 XorA: pfft... Feb 04 10:07:06 * ScaredyCat is pretty sure that you need to install lots of crap on the host just for oe Feb 04 10:41:24 ScaredyCat: oe held up opie from oe simply because it installed to /opt Feb 04 10:42:14 ScaredyCat: there is a long standing bias from os devs against anything qtopia related Feb 04 10:42:24 oe, not os Feb 04 10:42:35 ljp: not true, just some Feb 04 10:43:57 * XorA would like to see a qtopia-core opieII in OE Feb 04 11:33:47 openmoko: 03thomas * r4015 10/trunk/src/target/opkg/pkg_parse.c: opkg: fix pkg_parse_raw() bug where architecture is set to an invalid value Feb 04 11:37:24 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eSi6J-QK1lw# Feb 04 11:37:28 oops Feb 04 11:40:49 good morning Feb 04 11:41:37 smlsfb: the jump is too funny Feb 04 11:42:50 smlsfb: you could jump over all these spike stoppers. the look in the face of a guard/cop would be worth gold! Feb 04 11:43:47 haha, yeah i'd love suspension like that :) Feb 04 12:18:42 Hi while executing AT Commands I got error like "unable to handle packet type=2" why so ? Feb 04 12:22:20 Atul_: it means and overrun i think, i.e. a response bigger than 4096 bytes or so Feb 04 12:23:30 balrog-kun: it reponse comes form gsmd part of openmoko Feb 04 12:23:53 *an Feb 04 12:24:10 Atul_: yes, gsmd has a limit on the size of response for a single AT command Feb 04 12:24:39 balrog-kun: but what the solution for it I have to test all AT Commands for neo1973 How to do now ? Feb 04 12:25:52 i don't know, extend the buffer in gsmd Feb 04 12:35:41 or send on eat a time Feb 04 12:36:00 what command needs more than 4096 chars? Feb 04 12:38:47 "640 kB ought to be enough for anybody." :P Feb 04 12:40:27 yes - trye - but AT commands - with the exception of the PPP related ones have sizes of 100 bytes at most Feb 04 12:40:35 with 10 being more typical Feb 04 12:56:23 SpeedEvil: what are ppp related at commands? Feb 04 13:04:11 the ones that initiate a ppp session Feb 04 13:04:17 GPRS Feb 04 13:05:53 AT+CLAC (list all commands) had a lot of output Feb 04 13:06:30 SpeedEvil: but the answers are quit short also for those, right? Feb 04 13:06:33 i think i resized the buffer to 4096 just for AT+CLAC on the TI Calypso to work Feb 04 13:06:37 emdete: no Feb 04 13:06:43 hi Feb 04 13:06:43 emdete: they can be a gigabyte ppp session Feb 04 13:07:00 (neglecting the multiplexor) Feb 04 13:07:27 hi Feb 04 13:09:04 SpeedEvil: that's not at-command but ppprotocol, right? a gsm daemon shouldn parse that... Feb 04 13:10:45 true - but they are initiated by at commands Feb 04 13:10:59 if you are interested in usability review or interface design please subscribe to "2008 Season of usability" Feb 04 13:11:11 by openusability initiative Feb 04 13:11:14 http://season.openusability.org/index.php/2008/02/03/call-for-projects/ Feb 04 13:11:53 We are an university lab on usability and accessibility and we have already done many mobili interfaces research Feb 04 13:12:19 SpeedEvil: but wasnt the discussion about limits in gsmd? Feb 04 13:13:49 Cool, my neo1973 qemu has just booted up... Feb 04 13:19:11 emdete: yes - it was more an aside Feb 04 13:38:09 OpenMoko moving to efl ? Feb 04 13:38:50 probably not very soon Feb 04 13:39:49 link to news ? Feb 04 13:42:21 it was being considered from the very beginning Feb 04 13:42:28 and it's still only considered afaik Feb 04 13:43:53 reasons ? Feb 04 13:46:07 CVirus: what's efl ? Feb 04 13:46:17 Enlightnement foundation libraries Feb 04 13:47:05 xcasex: *poke* Feb 04 13:47:18 xcasex: didnt you say something about efl? Feb 04 13:47:30 2 Feb 04 13:48:21 *peek* Feb 04 13:51:39 reasons for switching or not switching? Feb 04 13:55:02 balrog-kun: yeah....it'd be interesting... Feb 04 14:20:55 balrog-kun: So that OM could have a gui that performs like the iPhone? Feb 04 14:23:27 mwester, no problem at all. Feb 04 14:24:09 the iphone uses 3d-support for windowmanager-effects, that's where OM needs time, as there is no 3d capable driver. with efl you can do pretty neat stuff with softwarerendering only. Feb 04 14:26:14 mwester: hello... about the kernel compilation that we discussed last friday, if I delete the "build/tmp/stamps/neo1973-xxx/linux-xxx-do_compile" file then do a "make menuconfig" in the kernel then rebuild with "make build-package-linux-openmoko" it doesn't work at all. Feb 04 14:26:40 mwester: It gives me some errors while compiling Feb 04 14:28:47 AFAIR the graphics chip in GTA01 is 3d capeable, but the driver isn't Feb 04 14:28:57 02 Feb 04 14:29:15 mwester: i'm not sure efl helps in that much Feb 04 14:29:52 it has some nasty limits as well, 512x512 render area which would have to be worked around in software (not a small feat) if one wanted to use the whole screen Feb 04 14:31:17 A propper solution is to write a 3d enabled Framebuffer for GTA01 Feb 04 14:38:48 I'm playing the devil's advocate role, to some extent. I do like the iphone gui effects, and it is very snappy, but personally I'm unwilling to sacrifice some of the other features by shifting dev work to converting to EFL instead of coding the apps and services. JMO. Feb 04 15:11:21 Ok - it looks like my ADSL connection is becoming increasingly unstable. Calling Feb 04 15:11:22 BT but I may be offline for a bit. :( (client is on shell host) Feb 04 15:12:12 Unless I decide to use GPRS Feb 04 15:17:36 SpeedEvil: My boss had a problem with his BT line Feb 04 15:17:49 turns out some "geezers" broke in to the local exchange and nicked all the copper Feb 04 15:18:34 heh heh Feb 04 15:26:45 I hadn't realised it was so expensive Feb 04 15:27:02 hello all Feb 04 15:27:17 any positive news as off late ? Feb 04 15:28:03 that would be a no Feb 04 15:38:14 :/ Feb 04 15:56:14 * pjz expects no earlier than end of march Feb 04 16:52:55 Has anyone else had trouble with GPRS? Feb 04 16:53:15 I am using AT&T, was cingular Feb 04 16:53:22 And I'm on a pay-as-you-go plan Feb 04 16:53:45 When I connect, pppd shows 'atz', then it just seems to end Feb 04 16:54:33 I dunno much about pppd... I can see where the atz is in the connect script, but there is an echo before it, and the echo doesn't show up, just the atz Feb 04 16:54:37 blist Feb 04 16:54:47 s/blist/whoops/ Feb 04 16:54:47 wurp2 meant: whoops Feb 04 16:55:03 the keys are like right beside each other :) Feb 04 16:55:30 I use bitlbee, and blist is like /who Feb 04 16:55:49 the s/ was just my way of saying I didna mean to type that Feb 04 16:59:49 Never a dull day. :) Feb 04 17:01:08 kdean06: what's up? Feb 04 17:01:37 I'm bouncing in my chair, eagerly awaiting a dealer to call me. Feb 04 17:02:33 You shouldn't talk about your drug deals in public forums, man Feb 04 17:03:18 I know, but the constituents respect someone who's got aired laundry. :) Feb 04 17:03:50 Ah, laying the groundwork for your political aspirations? Feb 04 17:03:58 No... Feb 04 17:04:19 I'm still debating a run for state Delegate but I think I've got a while still... Feb 04 17:04:27 Anyway, beside the point... Feb 04 17:04:31 Car dealer. :) Feb 04 17:04:35 ah Feb 04 17:04:42 I tend to drive mine until they fall apart Feb 04 17:04:46 I like not having a payment Feb 04 17:05:01 wurp2, I paid my sedan off last weekend, and that one goes to the wife. :) Feb 04 17:05:09 Early, I might add. Yay me! Feb 04 17:05:12 * cjb_ie has never paid over 1k eur for a car Feb 04 17:05:12 Cool! Feb 04 17:05:23 cjb_ie: Also cool Feb 04 17:05:41 I have bought 3 new cars, I think... Feb 04 17:05:46 I work 55 miles from home and she works 45 miles in the other direction... Two cars is really REALLY useful for us. Feb 04 17:05:51 but even our used ones cost 8k eur or more Feb 04 17:06:02 Oh, yeah, you have to have 2 in that situation Feb 04 17:06:11 sounds like you're living in the wrong place :) Feb 04 17:06:16 * Ebbe has spent 0 money on cars ;) Feb 04 17:06:19 But we have kids, so we have to buy mini van Feb 04 17:06:31 Yeah, I would love to live somewhere with good public transportation Feb 04 17:07:11 I use my bicycle for the city and train/bus when I need to go elsewhere Feb 04 17:07:17 On another topic... how many people have bluetooth networking going? Preferably on ubuntu, although I suppose Debian would be almost identical Feb 04 17:07:21 Proud DINK for life. Feb 04 17:07:23 ;) Feb 04 17:07:48 great thing about my new one - it's a pickup so i can chuck my bike in the back Feb 04 17:08:08 Heh, SI3K here Feb 04 17:08:36 SI3K ? Feb 04 17:08:42 Single Income, Three kids. Feb 04 17:08:42 Single Income 3 Kids Feb 04 17:08:55 ooh, stretchy income Feb 04 17:09:11 Nah, starving kids. :( Feb 04 17:09:38 Income is fairly stretchy - I'm direct contracting to Southwest airlines Feb 04 17:09:39 wurp2, For your question, no, I've not set up Bluetooth networking yet. Feb 04 17:09:41 kdean06: 'sok, it builds character Feb 04 17:09:46 writing software Feb 04 17:10:45 wurp2: Doesn't the wiki instructions work with pand? Feb 04 17:10:59 For me, only mostly Feb 04 17:11:06 I need to go through it again Feb 04 17:11:29 My initial experience was that I could get networking to my machine to work, but no external access Feb 04 17:11:35 THen I got that working, but no DNS Feb 04 17:12:02 Then I got stupid and started trying to work on the fancy stuff (auto connect on the desktop side) before I got DNS fixed Feb 04 17:12:08 and I busted the whole thing Feb 04 17:12:26 DNS in general has seemed flaky on the neo, even when using usb networking Feb 04 17:12:46 about half to 2/3 of the time I can access the internet fine, but I get no DNS Feb 04 17:12:56 then it will just start working, with me having made no changes Feb 04 17:13:33 Simplest way for me is to just forward DNS traffic on. Feb 04 17:13:46 Are you doing that, or running a DNS server on your PC? Feb 04 17:14:43 DNS on my PC Feb 04 17:14:46 Maybe that's my issue Feb 04 17:15:10 I'm not sure how to configure forwarding DNS traffic on... are you using a routing entry for that? Feb 04 17:15:51 My point with the DNS comment is that I may well have had everything right except this intermittent DNS issue, then I went and screwed it up :-) Feb 04 17:15:55 wurp2: dnsmasq ist the easiest way Feb 04 17:16:02 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/USB_Networking#Proxying_with_iptables Feb 04 17:16:10 I need to reset back to my starting place and try again Feb 04 17:16:22 gamin, kdean06: Cool, thanks! Feb 04 17:16:48 I'd assume the same would apply to Bluetooth, making the needed IP changes. Feb 04 17:17:07 wurp2: I'm running debian and just needed apt-get install dnsmasq. no configuration necessary Feb 04 17:17:23 works right out of the box Feb 04 17:17:24 gamin, What are the benefits of that, over, say, port forwarding? Feb 04 17:17:42 no fiddeling with iptables ? :) Feb 04 17:17:43 gamin: Wow, that sounds like the way to go Feb 04 17:17:58 ;) Feb 04 17:18:08 I'd bet port forwarding is less computing resources, but on a modern machine, it's totally negligible Feb 04 17:18:09 Interesting, gonna have to set that up. Feb 04 17:18:25 And I agree with gamin re: fiddling with iptables Feb 04 17:18:38 Not being a unix or network admin, I suck at it anyway Feb 04 17:18:41 I couldn't care less about that, personally. ;P Feb 04 17:18:57 But i suppose being able to start and stop a service is marginally simpler. ;) Feb 04 17:19:08 that == iptables || that == resources? Feb 04 17:19:15 ah, iptables Feb 04 17:19:31 Yeah. Feb 04 17:20:49 Hrm, I wonder if there's a tspc ipkg for the neo. Feb 04 17:22:17 Not in the default set, anyway. Feb 04 17:31:14 tspc for emulating ipv6? Feb 04 17:34:42 IPv6 tunnel, yeah. Feb 04 17:34:58 I don't think there are many US ISPs that yet support IPv6 so I need to fake it. :) Feb 04 17:45:54 kdean06: Same experience here - I asked my ISP about ipv6 support, they said "Why??" Feb 04 17:46:19 Cause NAT is a bitch. Feb 04 17:46:25 Simple enough for me. :) Feb 04 17:46:42 My ISP thinks it's "neat" but doesn't have any demand for spending the money on it. Feb 04 17:47:14 I just wanted to learn and experiment, but they pretty much said I'm on my own, and they had no plans for support in the future either. Feb 04 17:47:43 did you tell them they'd be first against the wall, etc? :) Feb 04 17:48:07 Yeah, when China completes their plan to purchase the US, they'll be in trouble ;) Feb 04 17:56:46 Just use miredo, instant IPv6 Feb 04 17:58:18 Miredo is a tunnel too, how is it better? Feb 04 17:59:17 cesarb: I saw some talk in the room over the weekend that indicated that an early version of cpu frequency control was working on the neo Feb 04 17:59:25 Is that true? Very exciting stuff! Feb 04 18:00:50 wurp2: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/User:CesarB/cpufreq Feb 04 18:12:26 cesarb: thx, reading Feb 04 18:14:49 cesarb: oh, you poor man, having to implement cpufreq for anything more complex than an intel pc is pain Feb 04 18:15:15 * robtaylor holds back rant on crappy kernel power management interfaces Feb 04 18:15:19 robtaylor: someone has to do it Feb 04 18:15:35 robtaylor: and several parts of the code actually helped Feb 04 18:15:49 robtaylor: for instance the freq_table helpers and the policy notifiers Feb 04 18:15:53 cesarb: DPM was decet, shame it died the death Feb 04 18:16:13 cesarb: So all of that has been tested on a real device? Feb 04 18:17:14 wurp2: all I have written so far, yes, but about half of the drivers are missing the notifiers Feb 04 18:17:27 wurp2: which is why I'm testing without the SD card, for instance Feb 04 18:17:51 wurp2: the sound also won't work so far, since it needs the notifier Feb 04 18:18:00 wurp2: but the harder part should already be done Feb 04 18:31:25 cesarb: Yeah, I'm impressed as hell at what progress has been made since the time I first heard you were on it until now Feb 04 18:31:44 Many projects wouldn't even have the "developer bootstrap" page you built this early in the game :-) Feb 04 18:41:14 wurp2: in fact, it's going slower than I wanted... I seem to lose half of the time to chasing bugs Feb 04 18:46:24 * cesarb would like to find out why, with the current code, it hangs when turning off the screen (which should immediately lower the frequency a bit) Feb 04 18:46:56 ...in fact, just writing it here was enough for me to find why: I'm probably deadlocking! Feb 04 18:49:30 cesarb: Only half? You're doing great ;-) Feb 04 18:50:01 cesarb: Do you have any tests for this stuff? It seems you would have to run the tests from a PC with a usb connection to the neo... Feb 04 18:50:12 to do real red light/green light unit tests Feb 04 18:51:26 wurp2: no unit tests. I first test whatever I changed on qemu (to catch the simple cases like obvious oops messages, or it outputting the wrong thing on the debug printks), and then I test on the real hardware (which is where the baffling behaviour usually shows up) Feb 04 18:51:34 hey =) Feb 04 18:51:45 my gps is okkk =) Feb 04 18:52:11 Seb`: congrats Feb 04 18:52:15 wurp2: the most baffling one I had so far was one where I was getting a null pointer dereference, in a place where it simply couldn't happen (since it had just read from the very same pointer) Feb 04 18:52:43 wurp2: in the end, it was because I was setting the registers in the wrong order and running the bus at 266MHz (way higher than the 133MHz it usually gets) Feb 04 18:52:50 wurp2, now, installing openstreetmaps it's difficult ? Feb 04 18:55:08 cesarb: Yeah, working down at low level, especially screwing around with timing, is always fun Feb 04 18:55:18 Seb`: I didn't think it was difficult at all Feb 04 18:55:28 Seb`: After I wrote a python script to download the files for me Feb 04 19:10:42 Yeah, I'm deadlocking in console_sem. Greeeaaaat... :P Feb 04 19:11:31 * cesarb wonders where else he could be risking a deadlock Feb 04 19:15:46 you have website for explications of installation gps ? Feb 04 19:15:51 openmapstreet :p Feb 04 19:20:25 Seb`: tangogps.org ;) Feb 04 19:23:17 cesarb: what kernel are you currently working with? Feb 04 19:27:36 Seb`: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Navit#Setting_up_Navit Feb 04 19:28:22 I used (and wrote) http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Navit#Script_to_download_OSM_maps Feb 04 19:28:46 Basically it's just 3 steps: Feb 04 19:29:02 1) find out your lat & long max & min using http://informationfreeway.org Feb 04 19:29:23 2) Download all the .osm files for those lat/long using http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Navit#Script_to_download_OSM_maps Feb 04 19:29:34 3) Run cat *.osm | osm2navit --dedupe-ways mymap.bin Feb 04 19:29:46 (oh, and 4) scp mymap.bin to the neo) Feb 04 19:30:07 And I left out the steps where you might need to install navit and python to your desktop :-) Feb 04 19:30:22 and the step where you edit your navit.xml to point to your new map Feb 04 19:30:39 But it sounds so much nicer if you say it only takes 3 steps ;-) Feb 04 19:36:45 mwester: currently 2.6.24 with the OM patches up to a few revisions ago Feb 04 19:38:09 cu Feb 04 19:43:21 completely random question: since gta02 has some leds, will it blink them on a kernel panic (like the keyboard leds of normal PCs)? Feb 04 19:44:17 if it's controllable with GPIO or something, sure Feb 04 19:48:08 cesarb: If you'd like. Do you know Morse Code? Feb 04 19:48:37 mwester: I thought the "blink panic in morse code" patch to the kernel was rejected some years ago Feb 04 19:50:10 mwester: I just thought it would be useful the same way the keyboard leds panic blink is (letting you know it had a kernel panic) Feb 04 19:51:05 cesarb: May be fifo is getting full which may result deadlock until fifo is empty Feb 04 19:51:18 I wrote a little script to monitor for slow charge and ask if you want to switch to fast charge Feb 04 19:51:31 Now I have a power management type of question... Feb 04 19:52:10 Considering file caching, bus traffic, etc. is it significantly cheaper to start up python once every 5 minutes (or 1 minute, or whatever) Feb 04 19:52:23 or load python once & keep it in memory, doing the delay loop in python? Feb 04 19:52:35 I suspect the latter is significantly better Feb 04 19:52:55 wurp2: keeping in memory is much better unless you are low in memory Feb 04 19:53:12 k, thanks for confirming Feb 04 19:53:16 wurp2: since you save the CPU work of loading (and later exiting) the interpreter Feb 04 19:53:27 Yeah Feb 04 19:53:52 the only downside would be as you said if you hit memory limit, in which case you perhaps get file IO for other tasks Feb 04 19:53:57 but it sounds unlikely Feb 04 19:53:59 wurp2: just keep in mind that the neo doesn't use swap and has memory which, while large for 90's standards, is much smaller than what most are used to currently Feb 04 19:54:10 sure Feb 04 19:54:30 My plan is to do my best to unload everything from python mem except what the script needs for the periodic check Feb 04 19:54:32 wurp2: well, the unused parts of the python executable and dynamic libraries can be "swapped out" (actually discarded) Feb 04 19:54:35 which is next to nothing Feb 04 19:55:46 Eventually I presume this will be replaced by some C code integrated into OM Feb 04 19:55:48 wurp2: and if you have several small tasks like that you could perhaps combine them in a single modular python script... Feb 04 19:55:58 wurp2: quite possibly Feb 04 19:56:05 Yeah, a pythond could be handy Feb 04 19:56:11 I talked with some people about that before Feb 04 19:56:37 I need to see how much control python gives over loading & unloading modules, and partitioning processes from one another Feb 04 20:26:59 blah Feb 04 20:27:10 how to make an & with the new keyboard? :P Feb 04 20:27:57 afents: You can't Feb 04 20:28:33 the new keyboard is pretty useless imho Feb 04 20:28:42 ditto Feb 04 20:28:45 wurp2, Sure you can. CTRL + SHIFT + 7 :) Feb 04 20:28:59 afents: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Switching_Keyboards Feb 04 20:29:00 I mean - who uses the neo as phone and needs the big keys at moment, but can't even test basic things because the most needed keys are missing? Feb 04 20:29:16 kdean06: How do you CTRL + SHIFT using multitap? Feb 04 20:29:31 You don't. Feb 04 20:30:01 Please, someone who knows more about neo's input methods improve that Switching_Keyboards page Feb 04 20:30:26 thomasg, Honestly, for "basic" phone functions, the multi-tap works. It's the "advanced" things that suck, and the multi-tap is ANNOYING for SMS. Feb 04 20:30:58 I created a file called 'a' in the root that does shuts down multitap and starts up matchbox Feb 04 20:31:05 Then I type '. a' after opening the terminal Feb 04 20:31:48 and I created a file called 'k' that shuts down matchbox and restarts the multitap daemon Feb 04 20:32:02 Finally I created a .desktop file that starts up matchbox-keyboard Feb 04 20:32:21 For those times when I end up with both multitap and matchbox killed :-) Feb 04 20:34:45 kdean06, yeah, it's enough for basic phone functions - but the basic phone functions are one thing nobody of the current people uses. for everything more than that - and everything somebody uses at all - it sucks. Feb 04 20:35:23 I pretty much use my Neo only for basic phone services. :P Feb 04 20:35:31 But I'd LIKE to use it for more. Feb 04 20:35:40 wurp2, of course you can switch, but I don't see the reason for putting the multitap-pad upstream as _replacement_ Feb 04 20:36:19 I mostly use my neo for phone, linux terminal, mp3 player, gps Feb 04 20:36:32 the only thing I use the kbd for is terminal, and for that multitap sucketh Feb 04 20:37:11 thomasg: Oh, I agree. I was just listing the techniques I was using because afents seemed to be looking for workarounds Feb 04 20:37:34 thomasg, Because there was a bug in matchbox keyboard and they wanted to enable some functionality while the replacement is being written. Feb 04 20:37:35 it should be switchable Feb 04 20:37:35 wurp2, yeah, thanks anyway Feb 04 20:37:37 the old xkdb works better than the matchbox-keyboard... Feb 04 20:37:43 its in the feeds. Feb 04 20:37:51 thomasg: Do you know how to switch back a better way? Feb 04 20:38:01 gamin: I assume you mean xkbd Feb 04 20:38:06 I'll have to hunt for that Feb 04 20:38:10 oh yes. Feb 04 20:38:28 I may write an applet to switch it on and off Feb 04 20:38:29 wurp2, no, I use my own om-version and haven't updated on multitap Feb 04 20:39:27 My current solution is (obviously) very much spit & bailing wire Feb 04 20:43:31 I hope I'll finish my own keyboard somewhen the next weeks - will include full ASCII (and more) and be easy to use with fingers Feb 04 20:44:21 I'd be very interested in a keyboard that shows as a shadow on the whole screen Feb 04 20:44:24 to get more real estate Feb 04 20:44:53 Also, something that works like the BlackBerry keyboard would be nice Feb 04 20:45:14 doesn't the blackberry have qwerty? Feb 04 20:45:18 Sort of Feb 04 20:45:23 Each key does double duty Feb 04 20:45:40 Then they use an algorithm to predict what you 'meant' as you type Feb 04 20:45:46 it works very well Feb 04 20:46:28 * mwester has said things he didn't mean to say as a result of the combination of a predictive keyboard and not proofreading the message before sending it. Feb 04 20:46:41 mwester: Heh Feb 04 20:47:04 And the awesome thing about that is that as the predictive algorithms get more advanced, the errors get more subtle and hard to find Feb 04 20:48:42 yeah - at least when I did it, enough of the message was garbled that it didn't make any sense instead of just offending someone. Feb 04 20:49:02 re Feb 04 20:51:30 I was thinking about putting together a qwerty keyboard that shows the letters, with no key delineators Feb 04 20:51:48 then using predictive algorithms and which keys are near where you pressed to divine what you meant Feb 04 20:52:28 possibly also figuring out over time which locations touched mapped to which key you meant to type, based on corrections Feb 04 20:52:47 raster: how is the efl hackery coming along? Feb 04 20:53:04 Of course, by the time I finished it (given the time I have to devote to such things) people will just have good input devices for mobiles/wearables Feb 04 20:56:30 I'd really like to see a full screen qwerty-keyboard keyboard Feb 04 20:56:41 .. Feb 04 20:58:22 Ebbe: I just upoaded an screenshot of xkbd Feb 04 20:59:52 gamin: Uploaded where? Feb 04 20:59:54 gamin: Nto at all what I had in mind. I want the orientation swap'd and to use it fullscreen Feb 04 21:00:09 s/Nto/Not/ Feb 04 21:00:10 Ebbe meant: gamin: Not at all what I had in mind. I want the orientation swap'd and to use it fullscreen Feb 04 21:00:25 http://scap.linuxtogo.org/index.php?page=1 Feb 04 21:00:44 Is it just a bug that the "dim only, don't lock" option in the power button menu still locks the screen? Feb 04 21:00:58 Or do I misunderstand what 'lock' means in that context? Feb 04 21:01:25 wurp2: It means lock the phone, it's not about the display Feb 04 21:02:44 Yeah, I've noticed that. "Dim only, don't lock" causes the Matrix screen. "Dim then lock" causes a crash. :) Feb 04 21:03:03