**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Tue Feb 05 02:59:57 2008 Feb 05 03:00:01 Kero: There isn't any other config needed, like rc file settings or whatnot? Feb 05 03:00:30 kk Feb 05 03:00:35 you can copy the single file instead of making a symlink Feb 05 03:02:02 I rebooted with the symlink in place, my "date" command still emits UTC Feb 05 03:02:57 balrog-kun: I like the symlink, since it tells you exactly which TZ you are pointing at by just listing the file. If it needs to be the actual file or a hardlink, that is cool too Feb 05 03:03:07 mm, I mostly notice the big clock being correct... Feb 05 03:04:02 splendid. stuffed in my european SIM, 1) it chokes on the PIn, 2) the clock is wrong Feb 05 03:04:36 Also check /etc/profile - it may set the TZ environment variable Feb 05 03:04:54 Kero: The wonderful world of bleeding edge :) Feb 05 03:05:03 it's an image from 2007... Feb 05 03:05:26 localtime -> /usr/share/zoneinfo/America/New_York Feb 05 03:05:43 Hmmm. Feb 05 03:05:51 I'm using an image from Jan Feb 05 03:06:04 HOTR: ok, i just meant that you don't need the whole share/zoneinfo directory and all its files, just a single file Feb 05 03:06:09 and `date` resp `TZ=UTC date` are nicely 5 hours apoart Feb 05 03:06:12 Hi, all Feb 05 03:06:24 mmontour: if [ ! -e /etc/localtime <-- seems to think if it's there, it should use it Feb 05 03:07:01 there's a whole bunch of tzdata-* packages :) Feb 05 03:07:12 i guess 2007 images were not prepared for y2k8 problem Feb 05 03:07:28 I just leave mine in UTC Feb 05 03:09:00 * Kero guesses his unit lost track of time, because he took the battery out. previous times, I put it back in after switching the unit off. Feb 05 03:10:27 it lost nearly 24 hours, which corresponds with the time I went to bed, yesterday. Feb 05 03:11:14 I've just built openmoko and was trying to flash qemu but the following error arises http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/54805/ any help? Feb 05 03:15:35 Kero: Time travel, eh? If you can get that to happen reliably, you might have something interesting ;) Feb 05 03:17:51 mmontour: Up until now, I have. But it would be nice to have Unix work in the Unix way. Feb 05 03:19:36 we need the ability to set by a time server Feb 05 03:20:32 install ntpd? Feb 05 03:20:42 KrisAbsinthe_: Why? We have a source that Timeservers sync to onboard. :) Feb 05 03:20:53 ntp/ntpdate works on the neo. Eventually we should be able to get time from the GPS Feb 05 03:20:56 * Kero does not know how to get time from the phone network; or even whether that is possible Feb 05 03:22:11 BTW I just tried creating an /etc/localtime symlink and it worked for me Feb 05 03:22:24 does any one know how to create bad block table for qemu? Feb 05 03:24:41 HOTR: is that implemented? cause it is not febuary 2nd or 19:42 Feb 05 03:26:28 mmontour: You just create the symlink and "date" reports time in your TZ? Feb 05 03:27:33 KrisAbsinthe_: I'm not sure if it's been developed yet. But if it hasn't, it's not a hard thing to do. Once I get my TZ working, I can hack up a script to do it in a couple minutes, and I'll write some C to do it a bit later, if you want :) Feb 05 03:27:35 I logged out and logged in again Feb 05 03:28:02 I closed my term session and reopened. Meh, I'll try rebooting. Feb 05 03:28:23 OK, not optimal. But I can receive SMS from my Dutch bank here. Feb 05 03:28:36 HOTR: Thats not a bad idea Feb 05 03:28:53 low level AT command; SMS is on the SIM but I do not think the message appl of that 2007 image has any clue about them. Feb 05 03:29:24 I can use SMS from the 1/27/08 image from GUI Feb 05 03:29:49 mohamed: you might retry that flashing part a few times. There is some timing crap involved, afaik. I'm slightly surprised it's not fixed, tho... Feb 05 03:31:39 Kero: you mean that I type make flash-qemu-local many times until it works? Feb 05 03:33:54 ooooooh Feb 05 03:34:28 * HOTR jumps for joh Feb 05 03:34:32 joy, even Feb 05 03:34:50 I did a hardlink. I would guess a symlink should work too. Feb 05 03:34:52 :) Feb 05 03:35:38 mmontour: Cycling the GUI should work, but I rebooted, since I don't know how to cycle the gui w/o rebooting Feb 05 03:35:57 KrisAbsinthe_: Ok, want that script? Feb 05 03:36:24 yeah Feb 05 03:36:51 /etc/init.d/xserver-nodm restart will restart the GUI (works if you're logged in over ssh; I don't know what it would do from the GUI terminal) Feb 05 03:37:12 mohamed: a few times. otherwise you get crazy. I got crazy. Haven't used qemu in a while. Feb 05 03:37:42 The one caveat is that I have no idea about the power issues once GPS has gone active. I tend to reboot to make sure GPS is reset, but I'm not even sure if that is enough. Feb 05 03:38:07 Kero: I did so (7 times till now) but nothing changes? Feb 05 03:38:22 Kero: Do I have to give up? Feb 05 03:38:39 mmontour: probably would kill your term session. If it's a script, unless it does something fancy, you'd need to nohup it, or otherwise it'll die in the middle when X kills the term Feb 05 03:39:12 mohamed: u-boot normally creates the bad block table Feb 05 03:39:16 KrisAbsinthe_: Ok, I'm assuming you have gllin/gpsd working and a fairly recent version of the OS stuff? Feb 05 03:39:17 mohamed: what's the problem? Feb 05 03:39:31 ln /tmp/Maps/OSM > /media/card will that work? trying to pull data from and to /media/card but have no way to edit the Cache DIR Feb 05 03:39:57 yes i have working GPS with tangoGPS Feb 05 03:40:24 it would have to be ln -s /souce /target ... your redirect will just end up writing the output on the card :) Feb 05 03:40:53 balrog-kun: the problem is that I want to run qemu but first I have to flash it usign the command make flash-qemu-local. the following error shows http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/54805/ Feb 05 03:40:59 what about retrieval, will that be ok Feb 05 03:42:05 mohamed: that's the u-boot 1.3.1 problem Feb 05 03:42:12 mohamed: it can't be used for flashing Feb 05 03:43:20 mohamed: use this u-boot for example: http://buildhost.openmoko.org/snapshots/2007.08/images/u-boot-gta01bv4-1.2.0+git8993e54b6f397973794f3d6f47d3b3c0c98dd4f6+svn20070819-r0.bin Feb 05 03:43:29 Why does date have this _ugh_ stupid format? Feb 05 03:43:45 KrisAbsinthe_: Retrieval? Feb 05 03:43:48 later when the flashing is done you can use any u-boot version for boot-loading linux Feb 05 03:45:03 Using TangoGPS with lats Unstable, they removed the OSKB and replaced it with a Alpha-Num pad, no slashes. So i need to change the default save location to my card where i have maps Feb 05 03:45:15 balrog-kun: I don't know that all I did was "make setup" , "make openmoko-devel-image" and then "make qemu-local" which includes flashing the local copy. was any thing wrong with the sequence? Feb 05 03:45:59 mohamed: MakeMokofile generally does it wrong Feb 05 03:46:31 i don't know what sequences are correct for MokoMakefile because i don't use it, but i guess you can just reaplce the u-boot with the version from http and it should work even with MokoMakefile Feb 05 03:50:33 nevermind, used SSH to display the app on my desktop Feb 05 03:50:40 Duhh... god im tired Feb 05 03:54:35 KrisAbsinthe_: Quick hackle: Feb 05 03:54:42 KrisAbsinthe_: awk -F',' '{print "date "substr($10,3,2) substr($10,1,2) substr($2,1,2) substr($2,3,2) 2000+substr($10,5)"."substr($2,5)}' Feb 05 03:55:31 The 2000 in there is an outright hack, but if your GPS is in a timewarp there isn't much this script can do to help. Feb 05 03:55:52 mohamed: there should be some make target with "download" in the name too Feb 05 03:55:55 KrisAbsinthe_: Feed that into bash and it'll set the time. Feb 05 03:56:43 KrisAbsinthe_: Caveat - it's untested, but it should work. I can add some bits for it to parse out the right bit from the NMEA output Feb 05 03:57:30 that would be sweet, if you had time to add it to the GPS wiki that would be cool. Feb 05 03:57:47 balrog-kun: thank you the file you gave me just worked well, but I don't understand what you mean by "there should be some make target with "download" in the name too" Feb 05 03:57:47 awk -F',' '/^\$GPRMC/{print "date "substr($10,3,2) substr($10,1,2) substr($2,1,2) substr($2,3,2) 2000+substr($10,5)"."substr($2,5)}' Feb 05 03:59:03 just goves me a blank line, if i hit enter on the first script it says 'Date 2000' Feb 05 03:59:11 balrog-kun: I deleted a file named u-boot-gta01bv4-1.3.1+git0ec595243dc99edcd248bbcfbfd5a1dc860bde89+svn3817-r1.bin by the file you gave me and type make flash-qemu-run, the flash succeeded Feb 05 04:00:35 KrisAbsinthe_: lol Feb 05 04:00:47 Sorry, I should have stated the "usage" :P Feb 05 04:01:11 you have to pipe it some nmea output Feb 05 04:01:31 balrog-kun: 1.3.1 newer than 1.2.0, then why the new version introduces new problems? Feb 05 04:01:42 cat /path/to/NMEA | awk crap above Feb 05 04:02:12 HOTR: im not that good at scripts and the such yet, switching from MS programming is hard LOL Feb 05 04:02:48 KrisAbsinthe_: I won't add that abomonation to the GPS stuff -- it's a dirty hack. I'll clean it up and rewrite it in C, there will be no mystery swtiches in it then (I hope). :) Feb 05 04:03:02 mohamed: because the newer version doesn't use a serial port console by default, which is needed for devirginator to work (the first flashing of the device) Feb 05 04:03:23 after this is done, 1.3.1 works fine, just not for the first flashing (like done in the factory) Feb 05 04:03:27 KrisAbsinthe_: It'll be annoying me on [[User:Historybuff/notes]] until I fix it. Feb 05 04:03:41 mohamed: this will be fixed one day.. Feb 05 04:03:43 cool thanks, Feb 05 04:04:05 Let me know if it works, or if you are getting breakage from it. Feb 05 04:04:33 will do, adding it to my gllin script now Feb 05 04:04:44 my openmoko reset itself. battery appears to be full, though. wtf? Feb 05 04:04:48 I think something like "tail /path/to/nmea | awk crap | tail -1 | bash" would work best. Feb 05 04:05:37 balrog-kun: thank you, now I have a working version with qemu until I get my device Feb 05 04:05:42 10 lines should be enough. I don't know if you can trust the NMEA time before you get a "fix", and this script doesn't even think about that. :) Feb 05 04:05:54 :) Feb 05 04:06:21 Thats no problem, one fix and the time will be ok :) thanks a ton Feb 05 04:07:05 Cool, glad I could help. I wish the power management stuff was that easy ;) Feb 05 04:07:39 * HOTR NEEDS to fix that damn tray icon, so that we all know what the device charging status is. Feb 05 04:07:59 No joke, wish i could help more, for now im writing a desktop app to "sync" moko based devices Feb 05 04:13:52 it likes breaking my GPS app. let me try an independent script Feb 05 04:21:01 HOTR, sleeping now, ill send the stats after a morning fix ... thanks Feb 05 04:23:19 KrisAbsinthe_: K, thanks Feb 05 08:37:24 morning Feb 05 09:25:09 openmoko: 03thomas * r4016 10/trunk/src/target/opkg/ (Makefile.am libopkg.h opkg_state.c opkg_state.h): opkg: add internal state framework Feb 05 10:10:59 openmoko: 03thomas * r4017 10/trunk/src/target/opkg/ (5 files): opkg: add downloading, configuring and installing state changes Feb 05 10:55:35 http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/NS2955814405.html neo goes scotland? Feb 05 11:00:29 buz: aaaaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh my eyes hurt Feb 05 11:00:41 buz: you could at least have put some warnings :-) Feb 05 11:04:51 * XorA cries as UK people are now all going to be subject to compulsary fluoride poisoning :-( Feb 05 11:13:23 good morning Feb 05 11:14:15 but if they offer it in march, maybe we can it in march, too Feb 05 11:14:25 400$ sounds nice as well Feb 05 11:14:47 price reduced to 400$ ? Feb 05 11:14:57 well not exactly Feb 05 11:15:04 CVirus: http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/NS2955814405.html Feb 05 11:16:26 planned feature: 700MHz!!! Feb 05 11:17:01 has 128GB of RAM. Its 4.3-inch, 640 x 480 VGA Color TFT LCD Feb 05 11:17:03 hehe Feb 05 11:17:30 4.3 ? Feb 05 11:18:01 128 _G_ b of ram? Feb 05 11:18:11 that's a typo Feb 05 11:18:15 what about 4.3 ? Feb 05 11:18:51 http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/NS2393777675.html Feb 05 11:19:00 Display -- 4.3-inch diagonal 640 x 480 VGA Color TFT LCD Feb 05 11:19:12 I wonder why do these guys keep posting misleading info Feb 05 11:56:27 openmoko: 03thomas * r4018 10/trunk/src/target/opkg/ (configure.ac opkg_download.c): opkg: make gpg support optional Feb 05 12:16:55 openmoko: 03thomas * r4019 10/trunk/src/target/opkg/opkg_download.c: opkg: disable gpgme header if gpgme disabled from configure Feb 05 12:18:13 :) Just sent first text. Feb 05 12:18:27 'ba' to get my credit balance. Feb 05 12:18:45 credit: 0 Feb 05 12:18:53 8.88 actually Feb 05 12:19:00 wow Feb 05 12:19:02 thats lucky Feb 05 12:19:03 -2k here... and growing Feb 05 12:19:07 hrmph Feb 05 12:19:11 (phone credit) Feb 05 12:19:23 Bank credit is unfortunately negative Feb 05 12:20:49 I'm not a really heavy phone user. I got that SIM a couple of months ago. 1.00 of that is the day I was using GPRS for networking, the other a couple of test calls. It started out with 10 quid credit. Feb 05 12:21:33 And hopefully I'll get my heating fixed today or tomorrow - dry fitting the parts prior to soldering. Then all I need to do is to install them and turn the gas back on. Feb 05 12:22:13 which will mean I can heat my electronics room and actually get some work done. Feb 05 12:24:25 bah Feb 05 12:24:30 who needs heat! Feb 05 12:25:02 heat would be nice Feb 05 12:25:32 solder needs heat Feb 05 12:27:38 * raster hands cjb_ie 2 sticks to rub together for that Feb 05 12:27:39 :) Feb 05 12:33:58 It's -4C at night. Feb 05 12:34:11 That gets rather chilly with no heating Feb 05 13:02:28 * bagpuss_thecat posts a lighter to SpeedEvil Feb 05 13:05:05 SpeedEvil: what happened to you heating? Feb 05 13:06:32 The pump failed. Feb 05 13:07:03 At least - it's hard to turn through the manual knob - and won't turn normally. Feb 05 13:07:11 I suspect due to contamination in the system. Feb 05 13:07:41 Got new pump off ebay, and am currently constructing a filter. Feb 05 13:07:55 (incorporating old hard drive magnets - amazing number of uses) Feb 05 13:11:12 SpeedEvil: so u are en expert for heatings also? Feb 05 13:11:30 No - I just know how to solder larger copper than electronics too. Feb 05 13:11:36 And it's just basic physics. Feb 05 13:12:20 SpeedEvil: is that the cause you are using the neo? mine gets really hot when used with battery ;) Feb 05 13:23:33 SpeedEvil: -4c where are you? Feb 05 13:23:53 I thought you were in the UK, but unless it's up on a mountain in Scotland that seems a bit cold Feb 05 13:24:34 wibbit: thats the general temperature of scotland at the moment Feb 05 13:24:41 wibbit: Perth, if memory serves Feb 05 13:24:57 XorA: You in Scotland? Feb 05 13:25:09 wibbit: yeah Feb 05 13:25:27 I was reading the paper on Saturday and they mentioned some thing about snow and strong winds up in the north, which was news to me, down here (london) it's the usual warm weather Feb 05 13:25:50 here it was -6 with a little snow shower Feb 05 13:26:00 I think across the river snow was a lot worse Feb 05 13:34:07 wildfire`: not yesterday, about a week ago Feb 05 13:34:09 wibb: Feb 05 13:36:43 wibbit: and I am in scotland - http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=56.2168&lon=-3.1122&zoom=14&layers=B0FT Feb 05 13:38:57 I think I've heard of Glenrothes Feb 05 13:39:32 hi all Feb 05 13:40:34 i m breaking my head in configuring gprs... Feb 05 13:41:13 i made configurations in /etc/ppp/peers/gprs , /etc/ppp/gprs-connect-chat , ...gprs/disconnect-chat Feb 05 13:41:56 when i run pppd debug nodetach call gprs, its throwing me the error "Connect Sscript failed" :( Feb 05 13:42:26 any fixes for this?? Feb 05 13:42:48 Varun: what is logged before that? Feb 05 13:42:56 Varun: have the script exec-rights? Feb 05 13:43:09 yeah! it has exec rights... Feb 05 13:43:13 Varun: there is a nice wiki entry about manually using gprs Feb 05 13:43:25 its showing only this error... Feb 05 13:43:31 yeah! i tried that only... Feb 05 13:43:35 Varun: don't believe that Feb 05 13:44:09 how to check whether i m connected to my gprs or not?? Feb 05 13:44:31 Varun: there should be a ppp0 when `ifconfig` Feb 05 13:44:42 Varun: and a `route -n` shows routes to ppp0 Feb 05 13:44:57 Varun: have you stopped gsmd? Feb 05 13:45:42 nope! i didnt stop that.... Feb 05 13:46:35 gsmd is running...wat shud i do ?? Feb 05 13:47:18 emdete: should i stop gsmd before running pppd?? Feb 05 13:49:51 emdete: i tried stopping gsmd...even now, its throwing the same error....i have checked ifconfig also...its also not showing any interface called ppp0... Feb 05 13:56:19 hi there. Feb 05 14:07:36 not able to get interface ppp0... Feb 05 14:08:17 has anybody configured gprs in openmoko?? Feb 05 14:09:06 shure Feb 05 14:09:38 Varun: probably a kernel module missing? Feb 05 14:10:12 emdete: what is the fix of this? Feb 05 14:10:29 ipkg install ... - dont know which at the moment. Feb 05 14:10:43 but your chat scripts work fine now? Feb 05 14:12:11 emdete: i used the same chat script given in wiki Feb 05 14:12:36 fine. question was: do they work? Feb 05 14:12:47 any news about power management? Feb 05 14:12:48 you should see some AT-commands in syslog Feb 05 14:13:10 emdete: will check it now?? Feb 05 14:13:27 emdete: sorry...i will check the log file now... Feb 05 14:14:19 fine. where did you get the error above? this ...not able...ppp? Feb 05 14:16:37 emdete: i tried to debug using: "pppd debug nodetach call gprs" Feb 05 14:18:34 great. and what happens? do you `tail -f /var/log/messages` in another window? Feb 05 14:20:44 mickeyl: Typo on the webpage (openmoko.com), says "When you use these files to creat something" Feb 05 14:20:52 I have any eye for these things apparently :/ Feb 05 14:23:51 roh: got that? Feb 05 14:26:35 man creat ;) Feb 05 14:31:16 mickeyl: any news so far about the Power Management? Feb 05 14:32:18 which parts? Feb 05 14:34:55 bedboi: cesarb is still working on the CPU frequency changing Feb 05 14:35:02 bedboi: which is a huge chunk of it Feb 05 14:35:17 SpeedEvil: ok... and what about sleep? Feb 05 14:35:27 I'm not tired ATM. Feb 05 14:35:43 Seriously though. Feb 05 14:35:54 I assume you mean suspend-RAM with wake on calls? Feb 05 14:37:00 yep Feb 05 14:37:02 :) Feb 05 14:37:10 That's somewhat related Feb 05 14:37:26 but not actually being worked on. Feb 05 14:37:28 SpeedEvil: ah ok... So freq scaling is still not supported. Feb 05 14:37:37 it's being worked on Feb 05 14:37:41 * cesarb sees his Konversation blink in the tray Feb 05 14:37:49 but not actually working in a sense that you might want to use it Feb 05 14:38:15 I suppose with even pessimistic assumptions, scaling alone should get to 18h or so Feb 05 14:38:25 ah so cool Feb 05 14:38:31 that's ok Feb 05 14:38:31 i expect the gsm-wakeup problem to be tackeld very soon Feb 05 14:38:43 system level guys are working on gta02 kernel now Feb 05 14:38:47 mickeyl: what about the GSM firmware question? Feb 05 14:38:55 retracile_: power use Feb 05 14:39:02 SpeedEvil: which question ? Feb 05 14:39:04 SpeedEvil: perhaps not so long, so far the framebuffer wants at least ~50MHz, and it still flickers Feb 05 14:39:05 re: power use Feb 05 14:39:06 mickeyl: are those patches backportable to gta01 ? Feb 05 14:39:16 cesarb: yes - I'm assuming off. Feb 05 14:39:26 bedboi: i think so, yea Feb 05 14:39:28 cesarb: basically 'active idle' mode Feb 05 14:39:37 cesarb: with display off Feb 05 14:39:37 mickeyl: ok :) Feb 05 14:40:16 SpeedEvil: unfortunately that needs even more code, currently the blanking function which should turn the display off just makes it write black instead of turning it off... Feb 05 14:40:24 do anyone tried to turn off theming (like gradients and so on) to see if it helps to speed up the user experience? Feb 05 14:40:25 cesarb: though the apparant inability of the current firmware for the GSM modem to do other speeds than 115k2 is annoying Feb 05 14:40:28 SpeedEvil: and the code needs to be synchronized with the LCM driver... Feb 05 14:40:42 SpeedEvil: gsm deep sleep is in the firmware since moko3 Feb 05 14:40:56 SpeedEvil: well, I don't know if you read that on your IRC scrollback, but I implemented the automatic selection of the cpufreq dividers Feb 05 14:40:56 SpeedEvil: now the problem is that some people still have moko1, so we have to update them Feb 05 14:41:08 cesarb: could even be user-mode Feb 05 14:41:10 and according to MichaelShiloh this is still in legal progress... Feb 05 14:41:12 SpeedEvil: which should allow for a bit more flexibility Feb 05 14:41:25 cesarb: the 'turn off screen' bit I mean Feb 05 14:41:58 SpeedEvil: and, after the GSM suspend (the exact same code which needs to be used for wake-on-modem), you can just make gsmd close the serial port and thus free the lower frequency range Feb 05 14:42:21 cesarb: Feb 05 14:42:24 ah - funky Feb 05 14:42:26 SpeedEvil: perhaps. I don't know if the path userspace would use would completely disable the driver (thus freeing the frequency range) Feb 05 14:43:01 So you don't actually possibly need to use the UART at other times than the flow control says it wants to - if userspace plays right Feb 05 14:43:10 hi, i found a small bug and i am not registered to the bugzilla and too lazy todo: when i turn on bluetooth (version Snapshot-20071121) the popup is written wrong: there pops up "Bluetooh" (without "t") Feb 05 14:44:02 cesarb: changed the dividers? Feb 05 14:44:11 I thought you were doing that already Feb 05 14:44:53 SpeedEvil: not flow control (I can't play much with the flow control, since it's done in hardware), but actual suspend-to-ram-like (asking the AT command interpreter to wake up the SoC) Feb 05 14:45:25 SpeedEvil: now I'm automatically chosing them (so it will use 1:2:4 if possible, but depending on the drivers it could use 1:2:2 or 1:1:2 or even 1:1:1) Feb 05 14:45:38 cesarb: ah I see. Nice. Feb 05 14:45:52 That would really be nice. Feb 05 14:45:54 SpeedEvil: the 50MHz one ends up using 1:1:2 since the LCM wants a greater HCLK Feb 05 14:46:13 Because it would mean that the GSM modem - possibly - can be in the really low power mode most of the time Feb 05 14:46:16 SpeedEvil: I didn't enable 1:4:4, because I don't trust the datasheet that much (it's commented out) ;-) Feb 05 14:46:45 Even when the phone is 'on'. Feb 05 15:55:16 yellow Feb 05 16:28:41 Don't you guys think that a next version of cellphones should have a dedicated grapchics processor? Feb 05 16:29:22 I don't think cellphones should do much more than be phones Feb 05 16:29:27 zelip: Yes. And FreeRunner has just that Feb 05 16:29:50 Vegar: Agreed that not everyone should.. Feb 05 16:31:20 zelip: no Feb 05 16:33:15 zelip: neo is a phone, not a console Feb 05 16:33:50 if you want a game console with linux, get gp2x Feb 05 16:33:55 :P Feb 05 16:35:56 I'm unsure about the graphics processor without knowing how much it's added to the sticker price. Feb 05 16:37:19 If it doesn't add much, and adds low power screen refresh, it might be a win. Feb 05 16:37:24 (for me) Feb 05 16:37:57 I personally put smooth scrolling animated menus someway down the list of important stuff. Feb 05 16:39:38 moin moin Feb 05 16:41:33 what happened to the GTA02's 1700mAh battery? Feb 05 16:41:54 yeah that's what struck my eye too Feb 05 16:42:05 wonder if that's a cut/paste snafu though Feb 05 16:43:36 http://wiki.openmoko.org/index.php?title=Neo1973&diff=23538&oldid=23500 Feb 05 16:43:39 there's the edit Feb 05 16:57:52 the next device in the line is gonna be gta03? Feb 05 16:57:59 no, 2 Feb 05 16:58:05 1 is produced and available Feb 05 16:58:17 y well after freerunner Feb 05 16:58:20 2 is in preproduction Feb 05 16:58:27 yes Feb 05 16:58:34 an then? Feb 05 16:58:36 at the moment they're in the 'wouldn't it be nice' stage as I understand it Feb 05 16:58:39 not actaully planned Feb 05 16:59:16 no camera is the greatest idea Feb 05 17:00:19 i think the open moko is gonna be a BIG seller in the usa Feb 05 17:00:57 when the 03 planned? Feb 05 17:01:04 welp time for the storm seeya Feb 05 17:01:10 :) Feb 05 17:01:14 its not Feb 05 17:01:32 sorry i was out.., but back in the graphic processor idea, I think GUI of a phone is one of the most important things, since you don't have mouse nor big keyboards for shorcuts nor big screens. Feb 05 17:06:50 I'm personally of the view that adequate performance can be gotten in software. Feb 05 17:07:04 For all stuff I require. Feb 05 17:08:40 it might be just a design thing.. ( a good gui ). I might be just pissed, since I just got my htc s710, and now I know I hate Windows Mobile OS Feb 05 17:09:20 Also I'd like it to be usable - the GUI - on unaccellerated platforms Feb 05 17:09:52 which are likely to be cheaper for several years. Feb 05 17:11:45 let those use windows mobile.. and let the good things come. heh Feb 05 17:13:01 And if OM can only then run on expensive hardware? Feb 05 17:13:15 Personally I'd like the option of a $20-30 cheaper phone. Feb 05 17:20:16 Does anyone have a recommendation about what recent OM image is best? Feb 05 17:20:29 I read kdean06's reviews Feb 05 17:20:45 I'm gonna go with 1/31 unless someone has a specific recommendation Feb 05 17:22:43 That's my recommendation, I've not checked out the .it images, but I might. Feb 05 17:33:59 kdean06: Thanks Feb 05 17:34:56 Hey, does anyone know of an ipkg that adds a shutdown command for the gsm so my phone doesn't go dead while plugged in and turned off? Feb 05 17:35:25 I can go create one, but I'd prefer to get one that's tested & packaged up Feb 05 17:37:50 kdean06: http://chmeee.dyndns.org/om/testing_gsmd.html Feb 05 17:37:52 Are there any pictures of the Freerunner? I've seen "naked" ones, I think. Feb 05 17:38:33 I've also seen one that was supposed to be the freerunner, but just had a solid black case. Not sure if that was legit though. Feb 05 17:38:59 from the wiki dev models page (where it was showing who had what) it seemed like they were just installing the new hardware in the old cases Feb 05 17:39:24 maybe with some modifications to the case Feb 05 17:39:51 I think I've seen them then. Feb 05 17:40:16 I'm assuming it wil probably be a minor tweak to the case to rebrand and that will be that. :) Feb 05 17:40:24 Well, and eliminate speaker holes. :) Feb 05 17:45:51 kdean06: afaik there are no case changes, since from what I've heard retooling is expensive, and gta02 was designed to fit in the gta01 case Feb 05 17:46:04 Ah. Feb 05 17:46:11 Fair enough. Feb 05 17:46:17 Openmoko.com has the CAD images now. Feb 05 17:46:26 kdean06: probably only the whiteish part which holds the speakers (which you can see in the internal photos of gta01) will be replaced, since where one of the speakers was now is the wikfi Feb 05 17:46:50 I'm very curious to see how Freerunner will be marketed. :) Feb 05 17:46:56 kdean06: but that is probably not that expensive, and a separate filler part (yeah, the case is full of air...) Feb 05 17:47:39 * cesarb tries to find the sweet spot of frequencies which avoids flicker Feb 05 17:48:18 HCLK=90MHz seems to not have much... I probably have to fudge the framebuffer policy notifier to reject frequencies which get too far from the ideal (like the serial driver does) Feb 05 17:48:40 (no wonder nobody did cpufreq on the s3c2410 before; it's really a lot of work!) Feb 05 17:49:03 wurp2, You were asking about images... MokoMakefile now has a qtopia image, if you're feeling bored. :) Feb 05 17:55:12 kdean06: Nah, I gotta run for jury duty soon :-( Feb 05 17:59:53 anyone from spain here? Feb 05 18:08:14 kdean06: slowly Feb 05 18:08:29 kdean06: my guesstimate is: Feb 05 18:09:03 Freerunner available for purchase May. Software sort-of consumer ready by christmas. Feb 05 18:10:05 Maybe by christmas 2009, some limited availabiity in some stores in some markets. Feb 05 18:10:56 I don't see subsidised phones before xmas 2010. Feb 05 18:11:21 Wow. Feb 05 18:11:40 SpeedEvil, Do you work for OpenMoko? Feb 05 18:11:43 subsidy requires that the operators see a point in it Feb 05 18:11:56 no, that's a personal guess. Feb 05 18:12:00 maybe the gta03 will be more .... consumer targeted? I.e. less fugly :) Feb 05 18:12:07 I like it. Feb 05 18:12:20 Fugly is in the eye of the beholder. Feb 05 18:12:24 SpeedEvil, I was asking because you seem to know quite a bit, not just this specific issue and I was unsure. :) Feb 05 18:12:29 I love the Neo1973. :) Feb 05 18:12:38 no. Feb 05 18:12:43 Feels great, looks good. Feb 05 18:12:52 kdean06: he just idles in this channel 24/7 Feb 05 18:12:58 Yeah... Feb 05 18:13:50 any future models will come in a completely new style Feb 05 18:13:57 (including case, of course) Feb 05 18:18:05 I wonder how long "typical" devices spend in development... Feb 05 18:18:54 depends on how much a design differs from the previous Feb 05 18:19:09 and on the size of your engineering team Feb 05 18:19:23 6 to 12 months is a good guess Feb 05 18:19:57 Well, I'm just thinking about why I purchase devices and wondering if they're typical reasons... Feb 05 18:20:34 And I wonder if Freerunner would seem to be a good purchase in 2009, for instance... Feb 05 18:21:12 As to why I think operators might like it - in principle. Feb 05 18:21:51 If they can get significantly chepaer phones, with user-acceptable software - that might do it alone. Feb 05 18:22:10 SpeedEvil, I honestly think the carriers, at least in the US, would be against it. Feb 05 18:22:23 and have people txting each other over wifi instead of paying 15c/message? Feb 05 18:22:34 the US will definitely be against it Feb 05 18:22:49 Personally I'm fine with some forms of locking the customer into one operator for example, if they are told so. Feb 05 18:23:44 I think unless the current market in the US is changed, Freerunner will be DOA to "mass market" since most people are on a contract and can't freely move anyway, so the idea of being able to take the phone elsewhere is little to no incentive. Feb 05 18:23:50 no reason to lock the hardware though ... if it's discounted, just tack on a sufficient early-termination fee Feb 05 18:24:11 smlsfb: to an extent, yes. Feb 05 18:24:44 but that's not the kind of locking i care about Feb 05 18:24:52 Plus, with no accessories for the Neo, there's little the carriers seek to make. Feb 05 18:24:53 that's fine Feb 05 18:24:53 kdean06: there are other markets. In some at least subsidy is illegal. Feb 05 18:24:58 it's a reasonable business act Feb 05 18:25:25 SpeedEvil, What do you mean by that last part? What subsidy are you referring to? Feb 05 18:25:32 but restricting features is what would kill the phone in the US Feb 05 18:25:34 In 2009, the difference between low-end laptops and high-end phones will be smaller than it is now. Feb 05 18:25:50 the iphone still doesn't have an official way to use instant messenger Feb 05 18:25:57 My current laptop has a casing for a SIM, but it's not wired, afaik Feb 05 18:26:06 kdean06: in the USA and most other markets the majority of phones are sold with a large subsidy from the network. Feb 05 18:26:21 kdean06: the 'real' cost of the phone is somewhat higher Feb 05 18:27:05 or, the carriers not being able to restrict features is what would kill the phone in the US Feb 05 18:27:14 as a subsidized phone Feb 05 18:27:24 Possibly. Feb 05 18:27:26 SpeedEvil, Oh, selling phones at a loss is illegal elsewhere, is that what you mean? Feb 05 18:27:48 kdean06: yes - in some countries the network can't cross-subsidise the purchase of the phone Feb 05 18:27:55 Honestly, that's the single reason many people choose one carrier over another. Feb 05 18:28:33 Getting rid of that would kill a lot of companies ability to do business here.. Which I'd quite honestly be for, but see little chance of happening. Feb 05 18:28:50 Verizon would die if it actually was forced to offer good service to stay in business. :) Feb 05 18:29:39 I'd love to see a mobile marketplace like ISPs... Bring your own computer and plug in. Feb 05 18:29:55 I'd enjoy going to a phone store, and then finding the best carrier. :D Feb 05 18:30:00 * * OM Bug 1220 has been created by cwixon(AT)usa.net Feb 05 18:30:02 * * ipkg kernel/module upgrade regression Feb 05 18:30:03 * * http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=1220 Feb 05 18:30:07 Which, for the first time I was able to do, actually. :D Feb 05 18:57:40 .pixclock = 40000, /* HCLK/4 */ Feb 05 18:57:45 where did that number come from? Feb 05 19:09:06 From my calculations, 30075 is what it ends up using in practice Feb 05 19:09:54 And the frequencies where it's _lower_ seems to have less flicker Feb 05 19:10:01 cesarb, is that a safe default that is recalculated later? Feb 05 19:10:12 or is it static? Feb 05 19:10:36 smlsfb: well, it's what I'm seeing in the place where it's actually calculated Feb 05 19:10:55 smlsfb: 30075 is what you get if you reverse the calculations at the default frequency Feb 05 19:11:20 oh ... so does it need to be defined initially at all? Feb 05 19:11:22 smlsfb: one of the frequencies with the worst flicker, if I recall correctly, is one where the value is 39506 Feb 05 19:11:28 or would it be safe to let it calculate itself? Feb 05 19:11:56 smlsfb: and one low frequency which doesn't flicker is one which has the value of 22222 Feb 05 19:12:21 hah, that seems like a bit of disparity ... Feb 05 19:13:16 smlsfb: that would imply the correct value is not 40000, but probably something lower (perhaps something like 35000 or 32500) Feb 05 19:13:51 smlsfb: and the value of 40000 was "chosen" as one which ended up using HCLK/4 (30000 would probably use HCLK/2) Feb 05 19:16:29 Has anyone written a SIP (VoIP) client for openmoko? Feb 05 19:16:51 or is there a SIP client in OE? Feb 05 19:17:14 DukeOfURL: rtcomm Feb 05 19:17:24 er, sorry, ignore that Feb 05 19:17:32 * doc|work thought he was in #maemo :/ Feb 05 19:41:39 Did some more experimenting with the device, now that I know what to look for. Around 40000 = more flicker, around 20000 = less flicker, around 3000 = least flicker. Wtf? Feb 05 19:42:00 This seems to indicate there's some timing configuration in the LCM which makes it work better with 30000... Feb 05 19:43:10 But if I change that value to (for instance) 35000, I will in fact move the range from 20000-40000 to 17500-35000 Feb 05 19:45:08 i've been playing with libgsmd-tool, but i can't seem to understand what sl=stat means for SMS List-ing Feb 05 19:45:24 anyone know what stat should be to list SMS's? Feb 05 19:45:36 DukeOfURL, somebody was talking about mokoiax or something like that - think it is asterisk related port - its on the projects page somewhere Feb 05 19:47:02 * Kero blinks at inwoo's question and slowly starts to understand why libgsmd crashes when he types "sl" Feb 05 19:47:37 Kero: heh... Feb 05 19:47:46 it seg-faults when you just type 'sl' Feb 05 19:47:53 where did you find you have to add a parameter? Feb 05 19:47:57 DukeOfURL, yep its here http://projects.openmoko.org/projects/mokoiax/ Feb 05 19:48:01 It says, (sl=stat) Feb 05 19:48:11 i don't know what to put in for stat Feb 05 19:48:21 afaik, it has an sl command Feb 05 19:48:25 you can try "ALL" Feb 05 19:48:33 which works on the lower AT level Feb 05 19:48:34 hrm Feb 05 19:48:50 like sl="ALL"? Feb 05 19:49:04 i tried the lower AT level commands to read all sms's, and i get a cms error of invalid memory index Feb 05 19:49:10 Kero: libgsmd crashes because it likes crashing? Feb 05 19:49:27 using libgsmd-tool, i can't get it to read or list smss' Feb 05 19:49:30 Kero: isn't gsmd/libgsmd the most crash-prone part of the OM code? Feb 05 19:49:50 br3n: thanks for the info. I'm looking for a SIP client. Feb 05 19:51:10 cesarb: I know. http://chmeee.dyndns.org/om/testing_gsmd.html Feb 05 19:51:22 trying to help with that ;) Feb 05 19:52:08 DukeOfURL, I thought that's what asterisk is..... http://projects.openmoko.org/projects/gbpnkans/ sorry if wrong...... Feb 05 19:52:35 * inwoo sighs at libgsmd Feb 05 19:53:29 asterisk is everything! It has SIP and IAX VoIP protocols. It has software and hardware for TDM devices (T1). I has software and hardware for analog devices. Feb 05 19:54:09 Kero: cool, you could perhaps extract qemu's phone emulator code to help with the testing (I think qtopia also has one) Feb 05 19:54:11 DukeOfURL, yep, knew it was too complicated 4 me :-) Feb 05 19:54:15 I'm looking at driving a SIP VoIP handset from OM Feb 05 19:54:31 cesarb: it has? nice to know Feb 05 19:54:41 * cesarb played with gsmd some time ago, back when it simply didn't like talking to the modem, and in the end gave up Feb 05 19:54:45 cpufreq is waaay easier :D Feb 05 19:55:05 cesarb: figuring out all communication myself is a bit tedious, indeed. Feb 05 19:55:47 Kero: there's also some phonesim thingy which make flash-qemu-official advertises at the end... Never looked at it, but the name sounds like something useful Feb 05 19:56:33 ok Feb 05 19:57:43 Kero: http://doc.trolltech.com/qtopia4.3-snapshot/fd-ModemSimulator.html Feb 05 20:01:06 cesarb: a good thing about my framework is that you don't need full emulation Feb 05 20:01:22 no reason to parse "ATE0V1", just respond. Feb 05 20:02:48 Kero: the main advantage of using an emulator is that you don't have to know what the correct response looks like (the emulator already knows that for you) Feb 05 20:03:33 * cesarb notices that the minimum frequency creeps up with every tweak to make the drivers behave Feb 05 20:03:53 now it's at 67500 1:1:2 Feb 05 20:04:54 67.5 MHz? Feb 05 20:06:10 Vegar: yep Feb 05 20:06:26 Vegar: I tweaked some parameters to try to reduce flicker, will test on the device soon Feb 05 20:06:52 brb dinner Feb 05 20:39:36 hello Feb 05 20:40:12 hi Feb 05 20:50:09 Does anyone know how much this powerglitch will delay gta02? Feb 05 20:51:05 powerglitch? Feb 05 20:51:06 1.768794 weeks Feb 05 20:57:31 yoyo, see kernel mail list Feb 05 20:57:36 does anyone know what index SMS messages get stored, in order to read? Feb 05 21:06:01 Hrm... I've been meaning to look at the SMS handling source actually. Having some kind of checksum would be quite useful in preventing quadruplicate messages like I had last night. :S Feb 05 21:08:09 you mean in libgsmd? Feb 05 21:09:00 If one wants always the latest news concerning the openmoko and its release (especially in combination with the freerunner-device), is it best to join up to the mailing list or are there even more up to date news available? Feb 05 21:10:07 haha, kdean06, the SIM has limited storage, why keep SMS there after reading? (and is the timestamp accurate enough to recognize an SMS by?) Feb 05 21:11:47 Kero, I don't know exactly how the timestamp is set - is it network side or phone side? I got quadruplicates yesterday that all had the exact same content and incoming time and I'm not sure if the Neo falsely reported it or if it actually recieved it 4 times. Feb 05 21:13:38 libgsmd tool states, i can list sms's by sl=stat ... in the enum of lgsm_msg_sms_stat , there are 5 enumerations... how come i keep geting a cme error: 321? Feb 05 21:15:54 kdean06: unsure. Would have to read more of the docs... and frankly, I don't feel like that. It's an ugly, ugly standard Feb 05 21:16:46 for weeding out duplicates, doesn't matter which, tho Feb 05 21:59:04 sleep time Feb 05 21:59:06 siija Feb 05 22:43:37 where can I see the specs of the freerunner? Feb 05 22:45:01 same as gta02 Feb 05 22:45:07 if its hardware u want to know about Feb 05 22:45:46 so, I just bought an iphone, and I can't sync it with linux, and I really wish I had bought an open phone now Feb 05 22:46:57 but it does have 8GB space, and really slick software Feb 05 22:47:20 geeze, that blows away the openmoko Feb 05 22:48:07 rhett: The OpenMoko isn't done yet.. Feb 05 22:48:10 then learn to love it Feb 05 22:48:13 OpenMoko is the software, nothing prevents the Neo from having 8GB. And as soon as they exist, it can take 16GB cards. :D Feb 05 22:48:18 you buy an apple product Feb 05 22:48:30 its a limited -pre-packaged device Feb 05 22:48:33 they do exist afaik kdean06 ? Feb 05 22:48:36 it is not sold or intended as a platform Feb 05 22:48:45 i thought it was 32gb that don't yet? Feb 05 22:48:52 invariably this means it comes with "this device requires X, Y, Z" to function Feb 05 22:49:07 (eg an apple machine woith osx version whatever or a windows box etc.) Feb 05 22:49:12 Comparing the Neo/Freerunner to the iPhone isn't a great comparison - OpenMoko is designed to be open and nothing else pulls a close second to it in that regard. Feb 05 22:49:15 ajbrun, microSD. 8 gig is the state of the readily available art. Feb 05 22:49:16 if u have linux - you dont fall into its box - too bad. Feb 05 22:50:01 god, wireless sucks with linux. There is no WiFi chipset with GPL'ed drivers Feb 05 22:50:19 rhett: intel. Feb 05 22:50:25 were you here just to troll in a completely random fashion? Feb 05 22:50:36 raster, I thought openmoko is using atheros Feb 05 22:50:41 we are Feb 05 22:51:00 u said no chipset with gpl drivers Feb 05 22:51:01 wrong Feb 05 22:51:03 there are Feb 05 22:51:03 Isn't the Atheros BSD? Feb 05 22:51:04 intel Feb 05 22:51:06 sorry, mjr, you can't follow what I'm reading, I just learned about openmoko a few minutes ago Feb 05 22:51:08 been using it for years Feb 05 22:51:13 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/WiFi_support_in_OpenMoko Feb 05 22:51:26 atheros have open drivers as part of madwifi Feb 05 22:51:34 raster go down to "Public call for WiFi" Feb 05 22:51:40 "We can't find a WiFi Chipset with GPL'ed drivers" Feb 05 22:52:14 rhett: that is specific to low-power wifi chips for embedded devices Feb 05 22:52:16 like phones Feb 05 22:52:23 rhett, You need to understand that that was VERY specifically limited to the embedded device. Feb 05 22:52:32 that already narrows down choice massively Feb 05 22:52:41 we chose ahteros Feb 05 22:52:47 Linux itself has several GPL drives, and many more freely licensed ones. Feb 05 22:52:53 and we are even re-using a lot of the code from the madwifi drivers Feb 05 22:53:00 And I'm gonna go into "quiet mode" now. :) Feb 05 22:53:07 as the chip is mostly the same as the desktop/laptop-side ones Feb 05 22:53:10 when it comes to driving it Feb 05 22:53:20 the big problem is we have to address it over SDIO Feb 05 22:53:26 Look, guys, let me say that I love the idea of an open phone. I want buy one and help develop for one Feb 05 22:53:53 also remember - the iki can be full of crusty old info Feb 05 22:53:57 its a public document anyone can edit Feb 05 22:54:06 we only hired a fulltime wiki editor in the last week Feb 05 22:54:09 I have an atheros wifi card in my thinkpad, and madwifi takes about 10 times longer to connect to my wireless network than when I put a hacked version of OSX on it Feb 05 22:54:19 so it will easily contain lots of outdated or even incorrect info Feb 05 22:54:31 it is NOT maintained and vetted by openmoko itself Feb 05 22:55:11 Sweet. :) Wiki Editor. :D Is that the official title, or is it more a duty of a more broad job, or can you not say? Feb 05 22:55:22 their job Feb 05 22:55:31 no idea on title :) Feb 05 22:55:50 Neat. Feb 05 22:55:53 rh1 that may have nothing to do with drivers and more to do with dhcp Feb 05 22:55:58 how long does the openmoko take to connect to a wireless network? Feb 05 22:56:01 rhett: that may have nothing to do with drivers and more to do with dhcp Feb 05 22:56:01 raster: She is not in the office directory. Once Liane added she we know the title. :) Feb 05 22:56:18 stefan_schmidt: yeah Feb 05 22:56:22 but about time we got one Feb 05 22:56:30 raster: Indeed Feb 05 22:56:31 delete the old crap from the wiki - organise it nicely Feb 05 22:56:34 raster, using the exact same router, same hardware, madwifi = 10x slower than whatever osx uses Feb 05 22:56:43 double-check on new things going in that they are factually correct Feb 05 22:56:45 etc. Feb 05 22:57:08 rhett: So dig into it or stay with OSX, your choice. :) Feb 05 22:57:10 also, I get buffer overrun problems, etc. after being on a long time, and coming out of sleep mode Feb 05 22:57:18 rhett: 10x slower at connect u mean? or transfers too? Feb 05 22:57:27 rabble, connecting Feb 05 22:57:31 oops raster Feb 05 22:57:36 again Feb 05 22:57:45 it may have N OTHING to do with the madwifi drivers at all Feb 05 22:57:48 stefan_schmidt, I don't want to use osx Feb 05 22:57:55 it most likely is entirely to do with the dhcp setup Feb 05 22:58:05 if u have ever taken a linux machine to other peoples networks Feb 05 22:58:05 ok, well, what could be the cause then raster? Feb 05 22:58:07 rhett: Pure guessing: The linux box uses NetworkManager? Feb 05 22:58:10 be they wired or wireless Feb 05 22:58:32 i have seen dhcp retry with discoveres for 30 seconds before finally getting a usable reply from the dchp server Feb 05 22:58:46 stefan_schmidt, yes, so you think NetworkManager is going though some slow process? Feb 05 22:58:54 i have seen dhcp servers only reply with ip adfdress assignments and no default gateway or netmask Feb 05 22:58:57 raster: urgs, you really should avoid such networks. Feb 05 22:59:07 stefan_schmidt: sometimes u have no choice Feb 05 22:59:11 rhett: Ah, another guess: Vesion 0.6.5? Feb 05 22:59:26 raster: You always have. Just stop working there. ;) Feb 05 22:59:37 yep stefan_schmidt Feb 05 22:59:49 stefan_schmidt: when its the only internet u'll get for the next week - no choice Feb 05 22:59:49 :) Feb 05 23:00:16 rhett: There we go. :) Feb 05 23:00:25 point is Feb 05 23:00:31 its almsot certainly not the driver Feb 05 23:00:33 rhett: It's dhcdbd fault. (A dbus dhcp client) Feb 05 23:00:38 the overruns would probably be Feb 05 23:00:44 but the connect is most likely dhcp Feb 05 23:00:46 rhett: Got killed in NM svn already Feb 05 23:01:10 rhett: You can make a test when you connect from the console. Just to see the time difference. Feb 05 23:01:34 raster: In this case it is another stupid layer of dbus handling dhcp. :) Feb 05 23:01:58 raster: dhclient was extended and NM now communicates directly to it. Feb 05 23:02:10 wow, thanks stefan_schmidt, I'll look into that, yeah, NM is even buggy using wired ethernet Feb 05 23:02:13 raster: My NM from svn is blazing fast for dhcp now. :) Feb 05 23:02:46 rhett: Getting better in svn. Just a pity that 0.7 will still take some time before a full blown release. Feb 05 23:03:04 raster: About driver. They still do so many things wrong. Feb 05 23:03:06 stefan_schmidt: i've seen dhclient spend 30secs getting your IF set up :( Feb 05 23:03:28 stefan_schmidt: sure. Feb 05 23:03:32 not denying that Feb 05 23:03:35 raster: You don't want to know the jungle of private ioctls before the mac80211 stack :) Feb 05 23:03:38 but connect stime is most likely not that :) Feb 05 23:04:20 Before the stack wifi was a mess in linux. Somewhat working but a mess. Feb 05 23:04:38 But hey, it's getting better everywhere no need to complain. Feb 05 23:04:45 kdean06: isn't the greenphone a "close second"? Feb 05 23:04:59 We should think back to days were it was not even possible to boot machines with it. ;) Feb 05 23:05:13 raster: 30sec? that's nothing. Try to connecting to a default-configured cisco 35xx switch Feb 05 23:05:39 raster: it'll take a _whole minute_ just waiting for STP to make sure you aren't being evil and setting up a forwarding loop Feb 05 23:05:51 raster: _then_ it can start talking to the dhcp server (or anything else) Feb 05 23:06:10 cesarb: If you buy cisco but not enough admin power then there for sure things will break Feb 05 23:06:25 stefan_schmidt: sometimes the switch isn't yours Feb 05 23:06:40 cesarb: Ah, yes the STP thing. Was fun to watch some admins at my last job in a data center to find it. :) Feb 05 23:06:53 stefan_schmidt: and sometimes the switch was "inherited" from the previous company, and thus didn't come with the serial rollover cable and DB9 adapter ;-) Feb 05 23:07:28 cesarb: That's why you always need one in your pocket Feb 05 23:07:32 * stefan_schmidt is just kidding Feb 05 23:07:48 cesarb: i swear the greenphone had a license agreement with it that basically said u have to use qtopia to develop and can't put alternative toolkits/gui's on it. Feb 05 23:08:08 stefan_schmidt: since I'm currently a sysadmin, I should seriously start getting a kit instead of depending of whatever I can find Feb 05 23:08:25 stefan_schmidt: like, I have a box with several RJ45 connectors. I also have a crimper. Feb 05 23:08:32 stefan_schmidt: a RJ11 crimper. Feb 05 23:08:54 raster: that was true, but TT changed it Feb 05 23:08:59 cesarb: That's why I love coding and hate admin stuff. To many real hw dependencies. :) Feb 05 23:09:27 ljp: aah Feb 05 23:09:34 * cesarb wonders if ljp has a trigger in the word "qtopia" which makes his IRC client pop up Feb 05 23:09:41 cesarb: For sure Feb 05 23:09:47 cesarb: i won't wonder. i'll place bets :) Feb 05 23:09:53 cesarb: I mean, it's part of his job Feb 05 23:09:55 ljp: when did that change? Feb 05 23:10:06 soon after the first release :) Feb 05 23:10:15 aah ok Feb 05 23:10:35 cesarb: As raster has a trigger for e* ;) Feb 05 23:10:36 i looked at it back then saw that and went "oh well. so much for that. next!" Feb 05 23:10:37 :) Feb 05 23:10:51 stefan_schmidt: dude - if i had that i'd be hilighted al lthe time Feb 05 23:10:52 :) Feb 05 23:11:10 raster: Not *e* ;) Feb 05 23:11:20 nah, raster probably has several, one for each of the 50+ e words he invented Feb 05 23:11:33 cesarb: heh Feb 05 23:12:24 in fact, raster has claimed the "e" space, like kde claimed the "k", gnome claimed the "g", and Apple claimed the "i" Feb 05 23:12:47 and TT's "Q" Feb 05 23:13:00 ljp: I knew I had forgotten one of them Feb 05 23:13:15 TT probably was for forerunner of all that madness Feb 05 23:13:23 e-space - no one can hear you scream. Feb 05 23:13:56 ljp: speaking of q... have u and smedia sorted things out? Feb 05 23:14:36 raster: havent heard back, after they said they would contact me again Feb 05 23:15:03 oh hooray Feb 05 23:15:13 ljp: u can get started based on the xglamo code Feb 05 23:15:16 as such Feb 05 23:15:26 we just got some a5's shipped Feb 05 23:15:48 i'm in .tw week after next so i'lll try and make sure i get at least 2 "mostly working" ones Feb 05 23:16:01 ok. great Feb 05 23:16:06 i.e - ones that have been beaten and dont have any nasty-surprises hw-wise Feb 05 23:16:14 hmmm Feb 05 23:16:16 raster: you mean the ones with the extra resistor soldered? Feb 05 23:16:20 it took until my 3rd gta02a4 until it mostly worked Feb 05 23:16:26 * cesarb just read about it on the ml Feb 05 23:16:36 cesarb: no idea atm. Feb 05 23:16:40 i know some work fine Feb 05 23:16:45 others have 1 or more things broken Feb 05 23:16:49 i thought the extra resistor was v4 Feb 05 23:16:55 so its a bit of a quality issue Feb 05 23:17:21 can we find out what things dont work, so I can tell our QA dept not to bug me about it? Feb 05 23:17:22 ljp: http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/openmoko-kernel/2008-February/000852.html Feb 05 23:17:56 ljp: it was capacitor, thinko sorry Feb 05 23:18:05 ljp: thats the point of getting u ones that work Feb 05 23:18:26 so u likely have 1 or 2 small known thnigs u are unlikely to care about in a qtopia port Feb 05 23:18:34 ok Feb 05 23:18:38 (eg p-ower voltage leaks on suspend etc.) Feb 05 23:18:54 * ljp makes note for QA Feb 05 23:19:12 hey, off topic, but does anyone know a good hobbyist set of hardware for doing robot controlling with embedded linux? Feb 05 23:19:20 theres no point you chasing ghost bugs in your code when its hw Feb 05 23:19:31 it would be nice to have something with the openmoko I could ssh into, put gcc on ,etc. Feb 05 23:20:32 hi Feb 05 23:21:26 i've received two neo1973 Feb 05 23:21:32 and both seems to have electrical problems Feb 05 23:22:56 rhett: VoodooZ in #nslu2-linux uses an nslu2 for controlling his robots that he enters in competitions. Feb 05 23:23:05 morning all Feb 05 23:23:20 the device reboots or hangs or only boots when he have a good mood Feb 05 23:23:32 is this how the device works? Feb 05 23:23:39 or both devices are buggy? Feb 05 23:23:55 thanks rwhitby Feb 05 23:29:01 * * OM Bug 1221 has been created by mickey(AT)vanille-media.de Feb 05 23:29:01 * * 2.6.24 freezes on GTA01 Feb 05 23:29:02 * * http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=1221 Feb 05 23:58:48 are there any estimations available as to how long the battery lasts in "passive mode" (that is, if I am not actually using the phone but carrying it around in my pocket, able to receive phone calls and such) Feb 05 23:59:06 unknown Feb 05 23:59:13 thats suspend Feb 05 23:59:20 and it's being hevily worked on still Feb 05 23:59:23 heavily Feb 06 00:00:10 hopefully more than 5 hours Feb 06 00:00:17 that's "suspend"? Feb 06 00:00:32 yes Feb 06 00:00:32 cpu suspends Feb 06 00:00:33 5 hours? i thought that was if I actively use it Feb 06 00:00:36 memory is left on refresh cycles only Feb 06 00:00:49 all devices should be powered down EXCEPT the gsm/gprs unit Feb 06 00:00:55 but it is possible to receive calls in that state? Feb 06 00:00:58 ah ok Feb 06 00:01:05 it should stay alive but in low pwoer mode and interrupt the main cpu waking it up when anything of interest happens Feb 06 00:01:12 5 hours would be veeery short... Feb 06 00:01:15 cannot imagine Feb 06 00:01:18 at which point main system resumes Feb 06 00:01:21 5 hours when not in suspend but screen turned off in my experience Feb 06 00:01:23 much like a laptop Feb 06 00:01:40 ..and no cpu load Feb 06 00:02:10 Ebbe: the cpufreq patches I'm working on should improve the time when not in suspend Feb 06 00:02:13 to me it's more interesting how long i can carry it around but not actively use it without having to connect it to a power supply Feb 06 00:02:17 my guess - in real life would be mybe 50-100hrs in suspend Feb 06 00:02:32 thats a guess Feb 06 00:02:35 the problem with that is... it's a guess :) Feb 06 00:02:38 yeah :) Feb 06 00:02:40 cesarb: Looking forward to it :) Feb 06 00:02:41 raster: some people will also want bluetooth enabled on suspend Feb 06 00:02:52 cesarb: that will drain a bit more Feb 06 00:03:05 also depends on the pwoer state of gsm and how much other stuff we actually manage to turn off Feb 06 00:03:07 is it using a tickless kernel? Feb 06 00:03:10 (i doubt) Feb 06 00:03:12 also voltage leakage Feb 06 00:03:24 dennda: if the os is supended - does it matter? Feb 06 00:03:27 :) Feb 06 00:03:36 raster: not much more... some time ago I for no reason in particular left the bluetooth on my razr and my palm enabled all the time (...in fact it was so my palm could easily dial out) Feb 06 00:03:51 not in suspend, but if the system is powered on it may make a difference Feb 06 00:03:59 dennda: it will. Feb 06 00:04:13 dennda: a tickless kernel wouldn't improve as much as cpufreq, which is why I decided to tackle cpufreq first Feb 06 00:04:19 raster: so is it using a tickles kernel already? Feb 06 00:04:22 oh ok Feb 06 00:04:25 cool Feb 06 00:04:29 dennda: not sure if we are tickless yet - but its there and avail;able in modern kernels Feb 06 00:04:35 yes Feb 06 00:04:42 shouldn't be a hardware issue Feb 06 00:05:16 raster: we aren't. There's a generic tickless support, but due to the way the s3c timer works it isn't as easy to use. Feb 06 00:05:57 I assume you have already received the gta01 versions of the device already? Feb 06 00:05:58 cesarb: frankly i think its not so important for us currently - rock solid suspend/resume and supfreq as u said are much more important Feb 06 00:06:15 raster: (all the other arm tickless drivers I looked at used a comparator to do the trick; the s3c doesn't have a comparator, it counts down to zero, meaning you'd have to reload the counter all the time... losing some precision in the process) Feb 06 00:06:25 personally Feb 06 00:06:28 evening all Feb 06 00:06:30 and don't hate me Feb 06 00:06:43 I'd perfer something like how the xbox 360 dashboard works Feb 06 00:06:50 so linux runs as it would on any palmtop device Feb 06 00:06:59 with the dialer logic etc all run from the bios Feb 06 00:07:08 cesarb: then u'l need to regularly poll system clock to adjust variable ticks for accuracy :( Feb 06 00:07:24 ewon: there is no bios Feb 06 00:07:30 it does not exist Feb 06 00:07:42 raster: I know, it would require a different hardware paradigm Feb 06 00:07:59 In fact, if you have only a gta01, doesn't use the sound (from the SoC, using from the modem should work), doesn't use a SD card, and don't mind a bit of screen flicker, cpufreq should already be usable... Feb 06 00:08:10 ewon: that paradigm is long dead. Feb 06 00:08:16 ewon: linux *IS* the bios Feb 06 00:08:18 its the os Feb 06 00:08:42 utilities/apps are proceses Feb 06 00:08:48 it lets u dynamically allocate resources as neede Feb 06 00:08:56 danythign else reuqires statifc pre-allocation of resources Feb 06 00:09:03 eg Nmb of video ram Feb 06 00:09:10 1 overl;ay/display plane on video hw Feb 06 00:09:16 a certain amount of system ram Feb 06 00:09:16 etc. Feb 06 00:09:25 its silly to do so and over-complicated Feb 06 00:09:47 raster: I know it requires resources, but it means Linux can be as (unbroken) as it likes, and the phone functionality is intact Feb 06 00:09:57 *shrugs* Feb 06 00:10:37 then u ned up with a new OS for the phone things Feb 06 00:10:47 whihc may be as (un)broken as u like too Feb 06 00:10:57 you just made life a lot more complex Feb 06 00:11:15 Would any of you devs mind roughly watching your device as its consuming the battery-power over time for a more accurate estimation of suspend-life? :) Feb 06 00:11:34 dennda: no chance Feb 06 00:11:41 my batteries are definitely not new Feb 06 00:11:50 Mine only lastes 6 hours w/ GSM shutoff Feb 06 00:11:54 and i'm eternally booting/rebooting/screwign with things Feb 06 00:12:16 KrisAbsinthe_: Being in standby all the time? Feb 06 00:12:28 who was the one who was doing that serial work... wasn't mwester? there's bug 1221 Feb 06 00:12:30 raster: heh :) I won't announce it on the net ;) Feb 06 00:12:38 but ok, I see Feb 06 00:12:53 dennda: yup, 5 hours W/ GSM on Feb 06 00:12:57 devs are the last peolpe u should ask Feb 06 00:13:03 as they are doing things on their devices all the time Feb 06 00:13:07 not letting them idle :) Feb 06 00:13:14 ewon: what you want is something like root for the phone things and non-root for the PDA things Feb 06 00:13:29 cesarb: lower level than that, really Feb 06 00:14:07 but the basic concept is the same Feb 06 00:14:51 KrisAbsinthe_: uhhhh Feb 06 00:15:02 ewon: something like xen/paravirt/etc? isn't it a f* waste of resources in something which already doesn't have many of them to begin with? Feb 06 00:15:25 cesarb: complete waste of resources Feb 06 00:15:36 and u'd still have the problem that u need an arbiter to access the video device Feb 06 00:15:42 or for that matter any devices that are shared Feb 06 00:15:50 cesarb: I'm talking something that interrupts userspace to handle gsm etc Feb 06 00:15:52 5 hours is not that long (even in comparison to my old nokia 3310 which still lasts several days in "passive mode") Feb 06 00:16:07 on the HXD8(or some future device) are we gonna have the same extensive wait period? Feb 06 00:16:09 raster: arbiter? nah, they would be virtualized (you'd call an API to display things in the screen... say, like a remote X client) Feb 06 00:16:16 dennda: "passive" mode for your nokia == suspend Feb 06 00:16:32 cesarb: correct - x becomes the arbiter Feb 06 00:16:36 you have a directx api on the 360 Feb 06 00:16:40 ewon: you seem to be thinking of SMM then, one of the ugliest warts of the history of computers Feb 06 00:16:42 thus virtual os has to calk back to linux os that runs x... Feb 06 00:16:45 Will freerunners batterylife increase? KrisAbsinthe_ was that tested with the latest updates? (If there are any updates concerning power consumption. I see there is progress) Feb 06 00:16:48 raster: yes Feb 06 00:16:51 yet the udnerlying OS can still break in to overlay the Xbox live UI etc Feb 06 00:16:59 dennda: It is possible with more tweaking to add a lot of battery life, one of the devs noticed when the screen blanks out it turns black instead of its default "white" Feb 06 00:17:01 one way or another u need something between then to control access Feb 06 00:17:28 ewon: the hardware allows for that Feb 06 00:17:29 Yes the GTA02s power will be better, and yes I have the latest images from 1/31 Feb 06 00:17:31 KrisAbsinthe_: thus not saving any power? I heard that from some laptops in the past Feb 06 00:17:33 raster: exactly! Feb 06 00:17:44 hence why I said above it woudl require a different hardware paradigm Feb 06 00:17:47 ewon: and frankly - as cesarb said. it's a waste orf resources Feb 06 00:17:55 its a dying/bad paradigm Feb 06 00:17:56 ewon: well, isn't that because on the Xbox the games/whatever run virtualized? IIRC nothing on a Xbox can directly get to the hardware but its kernel (or was it the PS2?) Feb 06 00:18:03 in software its just silly Feb 06 00:18:19 its a lot of abstraction, jumping through hoops and overhead in the end Feb 06 00:18:25 for basically what would amount to no gain Feb 06 00:18:27 ewon: and wouldn't you get the EXACT SAME EFFECT by running these things on uid=0 and letting the normal apps run on uid!=0? Feb 06 00:18:40 dennda: my suggestion was remove the video from the SoC when suspending or going blank, same with audio and SD when not being accessed, i think this will add a lot, maybe double? Feb 06 00:18:46 KrisAbsinthe_: it was me who noticed that ;-) Feb 06 00:18:57 cesarb: why do they even need to run as uid0? Feb 06 00:19:09 raster: to better match ewon's mental model Feb 06 00:19:10 cesar: yup, i forgot who lol Feb 06 00:19:11 cesarb: done right all apps should/can run as a nonprivelidged uid Feb 06 00:19:23 and only go through specific-purpose services when tyhey need anythingt Feb 06 00:19:41 cesarb: if the OS works, yeah Feb 06 00:19:56 KrisAbsinthe_: I think it should have at least several *days* of standby-power for mainstream market. (IMHO. People don't want to charge their phones twice a day) Feb 06 00:20:17 ewon: in your model, if the OS doesn't work, you are depending on... another OS below it Feb 06 00:20:34 cesarb: was that fixed already? Feb 06 00:20:36 ewon: and other than the serial port mixup, the OS _works_ Feb 06 00:21:11 dennda: I cant speculate on the GTA02 to much, but they added MUCH power management, some hardware some software. the 01 is still a dev model and i am patient. Feb 06 00:21:20 dennda: nope, didn't even open a bug report on it yet Feb 06 00:21:33 dennda: perhaps I will tackle that after I do most of the cpufreq stuff Feb 06 00:22:02 cesarb: I never looked at the source, is this all in C/C++ i assume? Feb 06 00:22:14 KrisAbsinthe_: they didn't add much power management to gta02 afaik... the software is the same, the hardware is slight better with power management but it's mostly the software which does the magic here Feb 06 00:23:01 KrisAbsinthe_: the kernel? it's C with GCC extensions Feb 06 00:23:07 KrisAbsinthe_: I am patient to. Can't wait for it to hit the market, but battery life (at least moderate, several days) are crucial to me. I am still using my old nokia 3310 which is TOTALLY broken in every aspect you can imagine ;) Feb 06 00:23:27 we expect several days too Feb 06 00:23:28 cesarb: that'd be great. should save a lot of power, shouldn't it? Feb 06 00:23:30 A Philips PCF50633 04 N3 is used for power management: I thought this is an addition? Feb 06 00:23:34 wew know what the market is for phones Feb 06 00:23:37 and how long it should last Feb 06 00:23:40 raster: thanks :) Feb 06 00:23:43 dennda: well, the _only_ reason (besides crashy gsmd) I'm not using the neo as my phone is battery life (which is why I'm trying to do something about it) Feb 06 00:23:47 we see no good reason it shouldnt be within the same ballpark Feb 06 00:23:57 we just have software issues to overcome to get there Feb 06 00:24:00 cesarb: glad to hear that Feb 06 00:24:22 Sounds good Feb 06 00:24:25 KrisAbsinthe_: It's a replacement. The gta01 uses a different chip. Other than that, not much difference. Feb 06 00:24:48 cesarb: I'm not doubting that it does, I mean it allows a smaller, more RT-os to handle the phonecalls, and allow linux to concentrate on the user interaction Feb 06 00:24:51 cesarb: can we expect better life for the 01 later on? Feb 06 00:25:47 ewon: well... that already does happen! The phone calls are handled by a separate OS running on a separate (closed) chip, and all linux does is to handle the user interaction! Feb 06 00:26:17 KrisAbsinthe_: in theory, yes. In practice, it has to be tested yet. But there are LOTS of ways to squeeze more uptime from it. Feb 06 00:26:24 cesarb: thanks for clearing that up, I assumed there was little that could be done. I learn something everyday. Feb 06 00:26:41 KrisAbsinthe_: we have suspend, cpufreq, dynticks, powering off stuff, and esoteric novelties like "sleepy linux" Feb 06 00:26:55 Just one last question (which you may not be willing or able to answer) before I shut up and let you continue coding: Are there any recent speculations about the price of freerunner? (I only read that gta01 base cost 300USD) Feb 06 00:27:06 KrisAbsinthe_: of these, I'd expect suspend, powering off stuff, and cpufreq to be the ones who do most difference, in that order. Feb 06 00:28:03 dennda: recent? none that I know of. There's an old one IIRC with the non-devkit phone costing as much as the devkit gta01, but that probably has changed. Feb 06 00:28:45 Its very odd to get real answers from a company lol Feb 06 00:29:38 * cesarb does not work for openmoko Feb 06 00:30:09 cesarb: damn, your here a lot for free lol Feb 06 00:32:38 thank you guys. I hope you can fix remaining bugs and polish the thing quickly. can't await getting one of those gadgets :) Feb 06 00:32:46 KrisAbsinthe_: I have a neo. I want to make it work fine. That's why I am here. Feb 06 00:33:10 KrisAbsinthe_: after all, the reason I use Linux is that if it doesn't do what I want, I can bash at the code until it does Feb 06 00:33:24 cesarb: no better reason, and thats why i love linux too Feb 06 00:33:52 im just now getting used to coding C/C++ in linux. a bit of a change Feb 06 00:37:41 KrisAbsinthe_: I'm perhaps a bit too used to coding C/C++ on linux (before using linux I used DJGPP...) :D Feb 06 00:38:49 i got used to borland WAY back in the day Feb 06 00:46:05 KrisAbsinthe_: I used Turbo Pascal for some time before a relative left a copy of DJGPP1 on my computer. The only thing I remember of Pascal is that pointers are ^ not * Feb 06 00:46:32 lol i used to use pascal to make BBS door games HAHA Feb 06 00:51:28 (What's freerunners resolution again? Can't find it right now) Feb 06 00:52:01 480x640? Feb 06 00:52:18 (1.7" x 2.27" - 43mm x 58mm) 480x640 toppoly Feb 06 00:57:08 vga? hehe Feb 06 00:57:17 KrisAbsinthe: these were the dark ages, where getting hold of a copy of something like gcc wasn't as common Feb 06 00:58:01 KrisAbsinthe: nowadays it's more like "I want a fortran compiler, apt-get install. I want a forth interpreter, apt-get install." Feb 06 00:58:11 cesarb: yup, one of my friends bought borland for $150, i copied it lol Feb 06 00:58:37 The recent releases (1/29 on, afaik) don't seem to like my symbolic link from /home/root to /media/card/home/root Feb 06 00:59:13 I'm guessing that somehow the system is not ready to read off the card when it first tries to read from the home directory Feb 06 00:59:16 cesarb: i remember when Linux had NO package manager, it was more like ./configure make make installl......WHAT STILL DEPENDENCIES.,did that like 500 times to get an Xserver Feb 06 01:02:31 * cesarb notices we're starting a two yorkshiremen and stops Feb 06 01:03:45 cesarb: lol Linux has come along way in the last 12 years. Feb 06 01:04:07 KrisAbsinthe: true, to the point we've begun to expect things to "just work" Feb 06 01:04:47 wurp2: are you still using the 2.6.22.5 kernel? The SD-card driver seems to be broken in 2.6.24. Feb 06 01:04:53 * cesarb last year bought a "realtek" NIC expecting it to "just work". Ended up writing the sc92031 driver, since the board was counterfeit and the chip was in fact a Silan Feb 06 01:05:14 wow Feb 06 01:06:30 my first linux machine was one i built from the "Kernel Compatibility" list. back then it was hard to find hardware that wanted to be stable Feb 06 01:08:40 And to top the irony, months later at work, the sysadmin was having trouble with a NIC not being recognized by the kernel Feb 06 01:08:52 Guess which kind of NIC it was? Feb 06 01:09:04 HA thats funny **** ENDING LOGGING AT Wed Feb 06 02:59:57 2008