**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Tue Apr 22 02:59:57 2008
Apr 22 03:00:04 <edistar> summatusmentis: heh
Apr 22 03:00:49 <edistar> raster: always when I try to load it e17 crashes
Apr 22 03:01:59 <raster> edistar: no idea why
Apr 22 03:02:06 <raster> works for me and works on my gta02 and gta01
Apr 22 03:02:08 <edistar> raster: ok
Apr 22 03:02:32 <edistar> raster: I did a fresh install of e17 (with easy_e17.sh) especially.. but must be bad luck
Apr 22 03:02:52 <raster> that is possible
Apr 22 03:03:03 <raster> but a backtrace would let me tell u more
Apr 22 03:03:04 <raster> :)
Apr 22 03:03:16 <edistar> raster: will it be stable soon? I mean illume, not e17 ;)
Apr 22 03:03:43 <raster> stable for me
Apr 22 03:03:48 <raster> but no - its in heavy development
Apr 22 03:04:37 <edistar> if you tell me how I can get you my backtrace..
Apr 22 03:04:38 <raster> note that u are definitely not using illume with the theme i am using it with
Apr 22 03:04:44 <edistar> raster: true
Apr 22 03:04:47 <raster> the default stuff wont work right
Apr 22 03:04:55 <raster> i dont even bother keeping it up to date
Apr 22 03:05:18 <edistar> raster: then I'll just wait till there is an gta02 image and I have one
Apr 22 03:06:10 <edistar> just would have been cool to have had illume on the desktop to test the keyboard..illume worked once.. 1 day after you released it
Apr 22 03:06:25 <raster> edistar:  that wont be much longer
Apr 22 03:06:25 <raster> :)
Apr 22 03:06:31 <edistar> raster: superb
Apr 22 03:06:43 <raster> i ever released
Apr 22 03:06:49 <raster> i simply put it in svn for the first time
Apr 22 03:06:50 <raster> :)
Apr 22 03:07:02 <edistar> raster: that's what I meant
Apr 22 03:07:15 <edistar> in fact that is releasing
Apr 22 03:07:16 <raster> :)
Apr 22 03:07:16 <edistar> ;)
Apr 22 03:07:23 <raster> not in my book
Apr 22 03:07:35 <edistar> ok, may be ambiguous
Apr 22 03:08:44 <raster> :)
Apr 22 03:09:00 <edistar> raster: well, I wish you luck with illume, I'll be happily beta-testing soon
Apr 22 03:10:57 <raster> :)
Apr 22 03:11:11 <raster> hmm
Apr 22 03:11:27 <raster> i need to make my usb gadget propely detect usb connect/disconnect of any usb device
Apr 22 03:45:00 <doc|home> can I have a phone now? :o
Apr 22 03:45:43 <doc|home> by the way, those photos posted to the list, aren't they the gta01? I thought the freerunner had 'freerunner' across the front of it?
Apr 22 03:46:51 <kdean06> doc|home, One of them looked like a GTA01, the others were of a Freerunner. Freerunner is all black and says "Neo".
Apr 22 03:47:02 <daMaestro> can i has cheeze burger
Apr 22 03:47:26 <doc|home> ah, ok, it's only because I saw 'neo' that I thought it was weird, I mean, people are going to wonder wtf 'neo' comes from?
Apr 22 03:47:38 <doc|home> I'd have considered 'neo' to be an 'internal' thing
Apr 22 03:47:43 <raster> the rabbit hole
Apr 22 03:48:00 <doc|home> *we* know where it comes from, most people won't :) 
Apr 22 03:48:21 <kdean06> I agree. To me there products are "Neo1973" and "Freerunner".
Apr 22 03:48:26 <doc|home> yep
Apr 22 03:48:35 <ljp> neorunner
Apr 22 03:48:40 <kdean06> But I've not seen absolute wording that that will infact be printed on the consumer device.
Apr 22 03:48:56 <kdean06> It might change, but I don't think it's been addressed publicly.
Apr 22 03:49:07 <doc|home> so, anyone got any idea when production starts and how long that'll last? :/
Apr 22 03:49:40 <daMaestro> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TuxPhone is pretty sweet
Apr 22 03:50:00 <daMaestro> doc|home, just watch http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Community_Updates for updates
Apr 22 03:50:04 <daMaestro> or, subscribe to the lists
Apr 22 03:50:27 <doc|home> daMaestro: I'm subscribed already, just wondering if anyone knew
Apr 22 03:51:21 <summatusmentis> the community list is ridiculous as to the amount of traffic
Apr 22 03:51:34 <doc|home> wuss :)
Apr 22 03:51:44 <rtm> Yes, and nobody seems to trip quoted text.
Apr 22 03:52:24 <summatusmentis> doc|home: I switched to digests, and I still get 2 or 3 a day
Apr 22 03:52:26 <summatusmentis> sometimes up to 5
Apr 22 03:52:34 <doc|home> heh
Apr 22 04:25:16 <playya_> yehaaa
Apr 22 04:25:22 <playya_> application accepted
Apr 22 04:26:53 <summatusmentis> right on, congrats!
Apr 22 04:28:01 <daMaestro> gah, ran out of time to try all the images
Apr 22 04:29:31 <raster> hmm
Apr 22 04:29:37 <raster> how many slots did OM get for gsoc?
Apr 22 04:30:31 <summatusmentis> 10, iirc
Apr 22 04:32:25 <raster> nice
Apr 22 04:34:05 <playya_> wow 10?
Apr 22 04:34:18 <playya_> then we have 9 gestures and me :P
Apr 22 04:35:36 <summatusmentis> lol, no. One was odeviced, one was SMS middleware, one was accelerometers, one was voice recognition, and I don't remember the others
Apr 22 04:35:58 <playya_> sms middleware?
Apr 22 04:36:17 <playya_> how many countries?
Apr 22 04:36:25 <summatusmentis> I'm not sure, didn't read the abstract, I think it means dbus interface to the sms parts of the gsm modem
Apr 22 04:36:38 <playya_> ok
Apr 22 04:36:48 <summatusmentis> http://code.google.com/soc/2008/openmoko/about.html
Apr 22 04:36:52 <playya_> is glib availble?
Apr 22 04:39:29 <playya_> maybe i need the sms middleware in my projekt :D
Apr 22 04:44:20 <paulproteus> 10, wow!
Apr 22 04:44:26 <paulproteus> Congrats GSoCers!
Apr 22 05:23:06 <roh> wtf... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sNCqrylNY-0 .. and then somebody says our hardware is too slow
Apr 22 05:34:28 <doc|home> roh: it *does* have just 8KB of RAM :)
Apr 22 05:45:38 <roh> hehe...
Apr 22 05:45:53 <roh> doc|home eventually we should just hire somebody to port a small tracker app...
Apr 22 05:45:58 <roh> like in mod-tracker
Apr 22 05:46:13 <roh> and make it exchange files via sms, mail, ip and bt
Apr 22 05:46:31 <doc|home> tracker app?
Apr 22 05:48:14 <roh> doc|home trackers are used to generate audiotracks.. you kow.. s3m and xm files?
Apr 22 05:48:46 <roh> basically simple samples/waveform descriptions with some 'notes' and repeat-clauses. scriÃpts for real old computers to make noise
Apr 22 05:49:39 <roh> there seem to be really small apps nowadays... e.g. LSDj for the gameboy *sigh*
Apr 22 06:19:57 <CIA-42> freesmartphone.org: 03pikkive * r240 10/trunk/software/gsmd2/ (47 files in 5 dirs): 
Apr 22 06:19:57 <CIA-42> freesmartphone.org: Used newer otapi specifications from revision 234.
Apr 22 06:19:57 <CIA-42> freesmartphone.org: Most of the conversion is done, more to follow.
Apr 22 06:30:38 <doc|home> roh: ah, meh, not too pushed about em to be honest :)
Apr 22 06:51:29 <mbuf> the openmoko sales team are based out of San Francisco?
Apr 22 06:55:58 <ewon> mbuf: they're in CA, I know that much
Apr 22 06:56:08 <mbuf> ewon, ok
Apr 22 07:08:47 <Hopscotch> good morning
Apr 22 07:20:49 <mbuf> Hopscotch, morning
Apr 22 08:11:28 <flexd> Hmm
Apr 22 08:11:46 <flexd> What do you think of running Ruby on Rails on Openmoko/A Freerunner?
Apr 22 08:12:05 <flexd> Thinking applications could just be tiny set browsers towards a localhost, where rails and ruby could do wonders :D
Apr 22 08:12:19 <flexd> so really just tiny webpages as applications
Apr 22 08:12:30 <ScaredyCat> I think you need an iphone ;)
Apr 22 08:12:35 <flexd> No :P
Apr 22 08:12:48 <flexd> I've just been playing alot with RoR lately
Apr 22 08:12:53 <ScaredyCat> I don;t think there should be ruby or pyhton on by default.
Apr 22 08:13:05 <flexd> and not python as i did when i first got interest in OM
Apr 22 08:13:22 <ScaredyCat> I think there should be an ipk to install 'full' versions of each.
Apr 22 08:14:03 <ScaredyCat> the problem with adding either by default is that it'll turn into a dependancy.
Apr 22 08:14:46 <ScaredyCat> Somone will see that there's python on there, write an app that'll end up in the core, and then python becomes a depenancy you can't remove
Apr 22 08:15:21 <ScaredyCat> same goes for ror
Apr 22 08:16:31 <ScaredyCat> I do think it should be easy for someone to put it on though
Apr 22 08:17:43 <ScaredyCat> opkg install openmoko-python-dev / openmoko-ror-dev / openmoko-anotherscriptinglang-dev
Apr 22 08:21:51 <flexd> Hmm hmmm hmm
Apr 22 08:21:59 <flexd> i think python should be standard in the core
Apr 22 08:22:04 <flexd> because it's so usable for anything
Apr 22 08:22:12 <flexd> GTK windows, small scripts
Apr 22 08:22:13 <flexd> whatever
Apr 22 08:22:31 <flexd> It's just a really easy way of mashing up quick simple code, that e.g C++ would require more work to do
Apr 22 08:22:43 <flexd> (not that C++ and GTK is that hard)
Apr 22 08:24:17 <ScaredyCat> well, personally, i disagree, but that's what it's about - it's open so we get to do different things :)
Apr 22 08:32:27 <flexd> mhm :)
Apr 22 09:00:53 <Sjano> Hello, I wondered... is Neo FreeRunner or Neo1973 a phone that can survive beeing dropped on the floor, moist and so on?
Apr 22 09:04:40 <zedstar> it feels pretty sturdy as a phone
Apr 22 09:07:46 <ScaredyCat> moist
Apr 22 09:09:01 <ScaredyCat> Sjano: you could ask the om guys to test that for you - they're doing distructive tests afaik
Apr 22 09:30:41 <balrog-kun> i'd like it to bounce back into my hand if i drop it
Apr 22 09:32:25 <Sjano> haha, like a rubber ball? hehe
Apr 22 09:35:05 * CoreDump|afk would rather like to not drop it in the first place ;)
Apr 22 09:38:41 <XorA|gone> its a fact of life, phone will take a suicide dive
Apr 22 09:39:08 <XorA|gone> good news is Ive dropp my Neo from 1m on fairly regular basis, normally when I trip over usb cable and it still works
Apr 22 09:44:19 <Sjano> Hmm... Good to know it won't break after staring hard at it, tough......  how about moist/water recistance?
Apr 22 09:46:46 * XorA|gone didnt spill coke on it yet
Apr 22 09:47:53 * ScaredyCat is sure you'd just snort it off if you did
Apr 22 09:48:47 <XorA|gone> ScaredyCat: I wish my budget stretched to real coke
Apr 22 09:49:04 <ScaredyCat> still using baking powder ? ;)
Apr 22 09:50:34 <Sjano> since it gets down to -50 celius (in the north in winter) and up to 37+ (in the south at summer).... its kinda nice to know if it could handle local weather and such...
Apr 22 09:52:08 <Sjano> baking powder, haha....   reminds me of a festival i was on..... in norway we have flour pills with smilies on them... and i saw a guy walking out with them... then putting them in bags and selling them to other people there...
Apr 22 09:52:21 <Sjano> fluor
Apr 22 09:53:27 <ScaredyCat> flour is correct :) fluor is .. errm
Apr 22 09:53:56 <Sjano> not flour.... im trying to find the english word for it.... ehm
Apr 22 09:55:00 <ScaredyCat> cheese?
Apr 22 09:55:05 <SpeedEvil> Sugar?
Apr 22 09:55:07 <SpeedEvil> Candy?
Apr 22 09:55:15 <ScaredyCat> Apricots?
Apr 22 09:55:15 <SpeedEvil> Vodka?
Apr 22 09:55:23 <ScaredyCat> Llama juice?
Apr 22 09:55:26 <Sjano> Fluorine
Apr 22 09:55:56 <ScaredyCat> eh?
Apr 22 09:56:08 <SpeedEvil> Fluorine is a gas
Apr 22 09:56:08 <Sjano> or something....  it's some stuff that are good for teeths and stuff
Apr 22 09:56:13 <SpeedEvil> A very toxic one.
Apr 22 09:56:15 <ScaredyCat> is that urine when you have a cold?
Apr 22 09:56:34 <ScaredyCat> flouride?
Apr 22 09:56:39 <ScaredyCat> fluride
Apr 22 09:56:46 <ScaredyCat> ~spell flouride
Apr 22 09:56:49 <apt> possible spellings for flouride: fluoride floured florid fluorite Florida flurried fluorides flourier floored Florie fluorine Florrie fluoride's
Apr 22 09:57:24 <XorA|gone> flourine in bags would be the ultimate high
Apr 22 09:57:41 <Sjano> hehe.... it was flouride.... 
Apr 22 09:57:58 * ScaredyCat would have preferred cheese ones
Apr 22 09:57:59 <Sjano> flourine bags sounds awsome
Apr 22 09:58:14 <Sjano> cheese flouride?
Apr 22 09:58:47 <ScaredyCat> you provide the cheese, I'll provide the gas :D
Apr 22 10:00:16 <Sjano> Uranus atmosphere contains 2.3% methane
Apr 22 10:01:16 <SpeedEvil> No it doesn't.
Apr 22 10:01:26 <Sjano> sure it does
Apr 22 10:01:28 <SpeedEvil> I'm feeling particularly farty, it's gotta be more than that.
Apr 22 10:01:31 <Sjano> or something like that
Apr 22 10:01:50 <Sjano> you spread it out for others to smell
Apr 22 10:04:50 <ScaredyCat> I wonder if you could power a car with SpeedEvil
Apr 22 10:05:29 <Sjano> awsome  i was right http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uranus_(planet)  ..... it also has methane ice on the surface... so it's really just a big fart flavored icecream..... awsome...
Apr 22 10:07:42 <ScaredyCat> pffft wikipedia still thinks pluto is a planet
Apr 22 10:08:31 <Sjano> hehe
Apr 22 10:08:44 <mjr> those bastards!
Apr 22 10:09:01 <ScaredyCat> everyone knows he's a dog
Apr 22 10:10:14 <Sjano> hahaha
Apr 22 10:11:31 <Sjano> they even got that wrong...... Pluto (Disney), the fictional pet dog of Mickey Mouse like he's fictonal..... i saw him on tv yesterday... and met him as a child somewhere
Apr 22 10:14:40 <Sjano> wow... battle pope sounds like an awsome cartoon
Apr 22 10:16:10 <Sjano> kinda like, rambo as the pope or something.
Apr 22 10:27:36 <SpeedEvil> Anyone used tagnogps?
Apr 22 10:27:54 <ScaredyCat> I've never tagged a gps - ever
Apr 22 10:28:27 * SpeedEvil drops a wooly mammoth on ScaredyCat 
Apr 22 10:29:26 <mjr> I have a bit
Apr 22 10:36:35 <SpeedEvil> On the main map screen - what does 'D1' mean at the beginning of the status line?
Apr 22 10:36:45 <SpeedEvil> Or D and another number
Apr 22 10:36:47 <SpeedEvil> in blue
Apr 22 10:40:48 <mjr> I dunno :]
Apr 22 10:44:34 <ScaredyCat> maybe it means ' D[unno]' :P
Apr 22 10:45:06 <ScaredyCat> SpeedEvil: does it change on zoom?
Apr 22 10:48:24 <Mek> hmm... when building an image mkfs.jffs2 crashes unless I disable rtime compression...
Apr 22 10:48:54 <SpeedEvil> Don't think it's zoom ScaredyCat. /me will check when he gets off the sofa.
Apr 22 10:53:32 <CIA-42> openmoko: 03thomas * r4387 10/trunk/src/target/opkg/ (libopkg/opkg.c libopkg/opkg.h tests/libopkg_test.c): 
Apr 22 10:53:32 <CIA-42> openmoko: opkg: add progress callbacks to libopkg api
Apr 22 10:53:32 <CIA-42> openmoko: libopkg: fix opkg_install_package()
Apr 22 10:54:10 <Marcel_M> SpeedEvil: i think its the numbers of tiles which are not downloaded yet
Apr 22 10:57:42 <Mek> hmm... apparentyly the rtime compressor in mkfs.jffs2 somehow can't handle compressing a 1-byte block...
Apr 22 11:01:41 <thos> who has a gta01 to hand?
Apr 22 11:02:48 * ScaredyCat hides
Apr 22 11:03:20 <thos> ScaredyCat, how long does terminal take to start?
Apr 22 11:04:03 <flexd> uhm question:
Apr 22 11:04:03 <ScaredyCat> thos: is yours taking a looooong time?
Apr 22 11:04:14 <ScaredyCat> if so check the size of your termcap
Apr 22 11:04:24 <thos> ScaredyCat, no
Apr 22 11:04:25 <ScaredyCat> I use a cut down one
Apr 22 11:04:27 <flexd> Does anyone here have/ever had a Nokia N80?
Apr 22 11:04:34 <ScaredyCat> just bewting
Apr 22 11:04:40 <thos> ScaredyCat, I'm looking at startup times
Apr 22 11:04:54 <thos> ScaredyCat, on poky, the terminal app starts in ~1sec
Apr 22 11:05:11 <ScaredyCat> it's nothing like that on the 01
Apr 22 11:05:15 <ScaredyCat> longer
Apr 22 11:05:37 <thos> ScaredyCat, the file manager takes about the same time to start
Apr 22 11:05:53 <thos> well, ok maybe 2 sec
Apr 22 11:05:54 <ScaredyCat> 2 maybe 2.5 s
Apr 22 11:06:45 <ScaredyCat> are you in an 01 too
Apr 22 11:07:00 <thos> no
Apr 22 11:07:17 <thos> but it just seems everything is slightly more snappy with Poky
Apr 22 11:07:22 <thos> no idea why
Apr 22 11:07:24 <ScaredyCat> on an 02
Apr 22 11:07:51 <thos> ScaredyCat, yes and I know about faster proc obviously
Apr 22 11:08:09 <thos> but it seems faster than OM on the same device
Apr 22 11:08:32 <thos> oh, also I'm not using xglamo
Apr 22 11:08:37 <thos> so that will suck some performance anyway
Apr 22 11:09:43 <Fauphi> bla
Apr 22 11:11:57 <CIA-42> openmoko: 03thomas * r4388 10/trunk/src/target/opkg/libopkg/opkg_download.c: libopkg: remove default progress bar
Apr 22 11:14:18 <CIA-42> openmoko: 03thomas * r4389 10/trunk/src/target/opkg/libopkg/opkg_download.c: opkg: remove unused variable
Apr 22 11:15:55 <SpeedEvil> Hmm. atheros bought zydas.
Apr 22 11:16:08 <SpeedEvil> atheros on the chips - using zydas driver.
Apr 22 11:18:55 <thos> could someone do: "time opkg list" for me?
Apr 22 11:19:13 <thos> and tell me the "real" value
Apr 22 11:20:27 <SpeedEvil> I have a scaredycat build.
Apr 22 11:20:30 <SpeedEvil> Is this interesting?
Apr 22 11:20:42 <thos> yes
Apr 22 11:20:45 * SpeedEvil boots.
Apr 22 11:20:51 <thos> "opkg list| wc -l" also
Apr 22 11:21:03 <thos> I want to know how long it takes to iterate the entire package list
Apr 22 11:21:20 <thos> so I know whether it's really interesting to send progress updates or not
Apr 22 11:22:15 <SpeedEvil> over 10s
Apr 22 11:22:21 * SpeedEvil waits.
Apr 22 11:23:00 <SpeedEvil> 59s
Apr 22 11:23:12 <thos> hrm
Apr 22 11:23:18 <thos> what does opkg list |wc -l give?
Apr 22 11:23:35 <SpeedEvil> Second run takes 19s
Apr 22 11:23:43 <SpeedEvil> it's not impossible it was still booting first time
Apr 22 11:24:16 <thos> infact, try: time opkg list | wc -l
Apr 22 11:24:26 <SpeedEvil> 12763
Apr 22 11:24:31 <SpeedEvil> and 11s
Apr 22 11:24:43 <thos> hmm, that's quite a long time
Apr 22 11:24:52 * SpeedEvil reboots the phone.
Apr 22 11:24:58 <thos> SpeedEvil, did you do the last one so it doesn't print everything out?
Apr 22 11:25:02 <SpeedEvil> yes
Apr 22 11:25:05 <thos> ok
Apr 22 11:25:05 <SpeedEvil> that was 11s
Apr 22 11:25:24 <thos> progress updates it is then
Apr 22 11:25:28 <SpeedEvil> I'll do the last one first - after it's calmed down after booting
Apr 22 11:26:16 <ScaredyCat> real    0m 9.54s
Apr 22 11:26:16 <ScaredyCat> user    0m 7.17s
Apr 22 11:26:16 <ScaredyCat> sys     0m 1.24s
Apr 22 11:26:16 <ScaredyCat> root@om-gta01:~# opkg list | wc -l
Apr 22 11:26:18 <ScaredyCat> 6537
Apr 22 11:26:59 <ScaredyCat> have you opkg updated SpeedEvil
Apr 22 11:26:59 <ScaredyCat> ?
Apr 22 11:27:14 <SpeedEvil> yes
Apr 22 11:27:41 <SpeedEvil> It takes longer than I expected to come down to 95% idle
Apr 22 11:27:57 <ScaredyCat> 6580
Apr 22 11:28:36 <SpeedEvil> I was trying to install tangogps - and did opkg update in between - which was probably a mistake
Apr 22 11:28:44 <SpeedEvil> real    0m 14.97s
Apr 22 11:28:54 <thos> SpeedEvil, thanks
Apr 22 11:29:05 <thos> seems to take > 0.1s so it needs progress hook
Apr 22 11:29:08 <SpeedEvil> Ok - it looks like I was running it the first time when the CPU was still pinned from the boot activity
Apr 22 11:29:16 <SpeedEvil> and 11s second time
Apr 22 11:35:37 <XorA|gone> yay, epithany webkit is still first picture in scap :-)
Apr 22 11:41:17 <caratorn> hello, I am trying to connect to projects.openmoko.org with ssh,
Apr 22 11:41:50 <caratorn> but after connecting, it prints a message, ending in Last login: Tue Apr 22...
Apr 22 11:42:07 <caratorn> and I can't execute any commands, any ideas?
Apr 22 11:44:06 <Marcel_M> thos: root@om-gta01:~# time opkg list | wc -l   --> real	0m 0.37s
Apr 22 11:44:07 <Marcel_M> root@om-gta01:~# time opkg list  -> real	0m 0.42s
Apr 22 11:46:51 <ScaredyCat> SpeedEvil: do I need to do anyhting special for gllin to work ....
Apr 22 11:47:10 <ScaredyCat> didn't some of the names change and there's not been  new gllin ?
Apr 22 11:50:32 <SpeedEvil> I dunno
Apr 22 11:50:37 <SpeedEvil> I have a pacakge which works for me
Apr 22 11:51:15 <SpeedEvil> gllin_1.0+r350-r0_fic-gta01.ipk
Apr 22 11:52:23 <ScaredyCat> yeah, I have than
Apr 22 11:52:26 <ScaredyCat> that
Apr 22 11:52:30 <SpeedEvil> heep://www.mauve.plus.com/ gllin_1.0+r350-r0_fic-gta01.ipk
Apr 22 11:52:41 <SpeedEvil> http://www.mauve.plus.com/gllin_1.0+r350-r0_fic-gta01.ipk
Apr 22 11:52:54 <SpeedEvil> http://www.mauve.plus.com/tangogps_0.8.0-r1_armv4t.ipk
Apr 22 11:53:58 <SpeedEvil> GTA01 of course - 02 just is serial
Apr 22 11:55:24 <thos> Marcel_M, what was the result of wc -l?
Apr 22 11:55:32 <thos> not time, the actual value
Apr 22 11:56:11 <Marcel_M> thos: 398
Apr 22 11:59:05 <caratorn> does anyone have a clue why I can't connect to projects.openmoko.org using ssh?
Apr 22 12:10:26 <ScaredyCat> SpeedEvil: do you keep your gllin ipk on the sd card ?
Apr 22 12:10:49 <SpeedEvil> yes
Apr 22 12:10:58 <ScaredyCat> top level?
Apr 22 12:11:01 <SpeedEvil> but I installed it - in this case - on the main card
Apr 22 12:11:07 <SpeedEvil> on the NAND
Apr 22 12:11:35 <ScaredyCat> I'm just automating the install after flashing..
Apr 22 12:12:03 <SpeedEvil> I'd like /usr/local/bin to automatically point to /media/card/bin
Apr 22 12:12:14 <ScaredyCat> so you flash a new image and it'll automatially install gllin if it's not there already, and the ipk is on the sd
Apr 22 12:12:27 <SpeedEvil> ipkg-link and stuff would be nice
Apr 22 12:12:36 <SpeedEvil> so you could also install ipkgs in /var
Apr 22 12:12:45 <SpeedEvil> which is /media/card/var
Apr 22 12:12:51 <SpeedEvil> and they stay there after flashing
Apr 22 12:26:19 <lyakh> (user question) anyone knows if the freerunner is going to be usable in Europe? Both regarding telephone standards and GPS / navigation?
Apr 22 12:27:59 <mjr> yes, yes
Apr 22 12:28:05 <mjr> be sure to get the 900MHz version
Apr 22 12:30:52 <lyakh> cool... no clues yet on availability (yes, I know, "No official launch date will be given until the phone is ready":-)
Apr 22 12:31:06 <lyakh> and how usable is it going to be out of the box?
Apr 22 12:32:13 <mjr> not end-user ready at launch
Apr 22 12:32:46 <mjr> I would say, given my experience with gta01, probably devoted geek user -ready at launch
Apr 22 12:32:50 <mjr> but ymmv
Apr 22 12:34:51 <lyakh> hm, they wanted to make the freerunner a "consumer" version, didn't they? I have nothing against having to install a couple of updates, even if JTAG is involved, as long as I don't have to write them myself:-)
Apr 22 12:35:57 <mjr> The plan is indeed to sell them to regular consumers _when the software is ready for that_
Apr 22 12:36:04 <mjr> at the launch of the hardware, it isn't
Apr 22 12:36:42 <mjr> (updating doesn't require jtag, by the way)
Apr 22 12:37:15 <mjr> packages can be upgraded with i/opkg or you can reflash the whole kaboodlethrough usb
Apr 22 12:37:21 <lyakh> mjr: yeah, as long as the updater is running:-)
Apr 22 12:39:47 * SpeedEvil sighs.
Apr 22 12:40:03 <SpeedEvil> 1.8mm shorter, and I could have found a way to put wifi in GTA01.
Apr 22 12:41:32 <mjr> SpeedEvil, wait till night, you get shorter during the day
Apr 22 12:42:19 <SpeedEvil> stripped USB key where the GPS antenna goes, smaller ceramic GPS antenna.
Apr 22 12:43:28 * SpeedEvil wishes he could get spare cases.
Apr 22 12:43:36 * ScaredyCat isn't getting a gps signal at all...
Apr 22 12:43:52 <ScaredyCat> gllin turns on the gps - rign?
Apr 22 12:43:53 <SpeedEvil> you're outside?
Apr 22 12:43:57 <ScaredyCat> right?
Apr 22 12:44:13 <CIA-42> freesmartphone.org: 03pikkive * r241 10/trunk/software/gsmd2/ (15 files in 3 dirs): 
Apr 22 12:44:13 <CIA-42> freesmartphone.org: Fixed some bugs introduced by changing to new otapi
Apr 22 12:44:13 <CIA-42> freesmartphone.org: Added phone state for multiple phone calls.
Apr 22 12:44:15 <ScaredyCat> I'm by an open set of french winodws
Apr 22 12:44:34 <SpeedEvil> install tangogps
Apr 22 12:44:38 <SpeedEvil> go to the config tab
Apr 22 12:44:50 <SpeedEvil> go to the tangogps homepage, and get that startup script
Apr 22 12:45:06 <SpeedEvil> then you can start gllin and gpsd from the config tab of tangogps
Apr 22 12:45:36 <ScaredyCat> which startup scriot
Apr 22 12:45:39 <ScaredyCat> script
Apr 22 12:45:54 <ScaredyCat> other stuff?
Apr 22 12:46:35 <SpeedEvil> And http://www.tangogps.org/gps/articles/7-Installation.html#extended
Apr 22 12:46:38 <SpeedEvil> http://www.tangogps.org/gps/articles/7-Installation.html#extended
Apr 22 12:46:40 <SpeedEvil> rather
Apr 22 12:57:04 <ScaredyCat> ok, that seems to fill out a little more detail..
Apr 22 12:57:20 <ScaredyCat> is there a log in tango gps so I can se the raw stream
Apr 22 12:57:29 <SpeedEvil> yes - however
Apr 22 12:57:46 <SpeedEvil> in the 'trip' tab - there is GPS lock info
Apr 22 12:58:04 <ScaredyCat> nan 
Apr 22 12:58:06 <ScaredyCat> L(
Apr 22 12:58:09 <SpeedEvil> altitude/lat/lon, satellite time, and satellites in view, and used for a position
Apr 22 12:58:17 <SpeedEvil> take it outside for a bit perhaps
Apr 22 12:59:28 <SpeedEvil> strace gpsd will also show what it's reading from teh gps
Apr 22 13:00:45 <SpeedEvil> http://www.gpsinformation.org/dale/nmea.htm
Apr 22 13:00:48 <SpeedEvil> look at GPRMC
Apr 22 13:04:17 <ScaredyCat> w00t!
Apr 22 13:06:31 <SpeedEvil> :)
Apr 22 13:06:56 <ScaredyCat> man the osm mapping data for .nl is awesome
Apr 22 13:07:14 <SpeedEvil> It's not really.
Apr 22 13:07:18 <SpeedEvil> It was a donated dataset
Apr 22 13:07:19 <ScaredyCat> they even have paths
Apr 22 13:07:26 <SpeedEvil> so it's not proper OSM in many cases
Apr 22 13:07:36 <ScaredyCat> yeah, I know, but the data is very detailed
Apr 22 13:07:42 <SpeedEvil> I mean - user generated content.
Apr 22 13:07:52 <ScaredyCat> I don;t give a ff where it came from
Apr 22 13:07:57 <SpeedEvil> Some few places in the UK are at a similar or better state.
Apr 22 13:08:09 <ScaredyCat> there's even P signs for parking
Apr 22 13:11:46 <ScaredyCat> http://www.openstreetmap.org/export?lat=52.49755&lon=5.45855&zoom=16&layers=B0FT
Apr 22 13:13:04 <SpeedEvil> the streetnames seem screwy, or it it really screwy?
Apr 22 13:13:25 <ScaredyCat> ?
Apr 22 13:13:52 <ScaredyCat> the roads aren't very straight in reality either
Apr 22 13:14:10 <SpeedEvil> http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=52.50451&lon=5.45869&zoom=17&layers=B0FTT
Apr 22 13:14:14 <SpeedEvil> lots of 'botter'
Apr 22 13:14:21 <ScaredyCat> the data is more accurate than in my tomtom go
Apr 22 13:14:30 <ScaredyCat> botter is correct
Apr 22 13:14:32 <SpeedEvil> In the UK, branching streets are not common
Apr 22 13:15:28 <ScaredyCat> that's how they name steets here.. you'll have an area that's called botter with loads of actual streets
Apr 22 13:15:36 <SpeedEvil> Ah
Apr 22 13:15:42 <ScaredyCat> then they'll have botter 11-50 on street signs
Apr 22 13:15:49 <ScaredyCat> on each streeet
Apr 22 13:15:56 <SpeedEvil> I see.
Apr 22 13:16:57 <SpeedEvil> So that's houses number 11-50?
Apr 22 13:17:12 <ScaredyCat> that's from 11 to 50
Apr 22 13:17:20 <ScaredyCat> house 11 then 12... etc
Apr 22 13:17:47 <ScaredyCat> so one street in the botted might have that 11-50 so if you were looking for 26 you'd go down there
Apr 22 13:17:52 <ScaredyCat> botter
Apr 22 13:18:07 <ScaredyCat> because 26 is between 11 and 50 :)
Apr 22 13:18:16 <SpeedEvil> Right - so it's correct, but it just needs more numbers
Apr 22 13:18:23 <ScaredyCat> yes
Apr 22 13:19:25 <ScaredyCat> ok, so now I have an image that has tangogps, gpsd, that script. gllin should auto install and the tago script should replace the standard gllin one. we should also have /usr/local/ pointing to /media/card/local/
Apr 22 13:19:31 <ScaredyCat> time to test ...
Apr 22 13:25:52 <SpeedEvil> probably also wise to add a few meg of maps
Apr 22 13:26:09 <SpeedEvil> 4 or so levels of zoom from the world
Apr 22 13:28:19 <ScaredyCat> yeah, can you pregrab stuff?
Apr 22 13:31:27 <SpeedEvil> yes
Apr 22 13:31:35 <SpeedEvil> it's in the 'maps' tab I think
Apr 22 13:32:21 <CIA-42> freesmartphone.org: 03emdete * r242 10/trunk/software/pyneod/ (Makefile pyggld.py pygpsd.py pyneod.ini pyneod.py pypppd.py): 
Apr 22 13:32:21 <CIA-42> freesmartphone.org: add location cache db
Apr 22 13:32:21 <CIA-42> freesmartphone.org: gprs startup corrects resolv.conf update errors of system
Apr 22 13:32:21 <CIA-42> freesmartphone.org: add SetLocation(cellid) to location interface
Apr 22 13:37:10 <ScaredyCat> maps tab ?
Apr 22 13:37:20 <SpeedEvil> One of the config tabs
Apr 22 13:37:31 <SpeedEvil> I mean one of the tabs - I forget which one
Apr 22 13:37:36 <ScaredyCat> I've got the autodownload  thing
Apr 22 13:37:43 <ScaredyCat> but that's not what I mean...
Apr 22 13:38:04 <ScaredyCat> I mean can I get a zoom 10 of europe, then a zoom 5 
Apr 22 13:38:06 <ScaredyCat> for example
Apr 22 13:38:11 <ScaredyCat> rhather than panning
Apr 22 13:38:16 <ScaredyCat> and zooming
Apr 22 13:38:52 <SpeedEvil> Tehre is a 'download 5 levels'
Apr 22 13:39:19 <SpeedEvil> which downlooads 5 levels down from the current zoom level, to encompass the whole visible map area
Apr 22 13:39:31 <ScaredyCat> where?
Apr 22 13:41:06 <SpeedEvil> sorry
Apr 22 13:41:08 <SpeedEvil> click on the map
Apr 22 13:41:13 <SpeedEvil> select map download
Apr 22 13:42:16 <ScaredyCat> you mean on osm, not tangogps?
Apr 22 13:42:27 <SpeedEvil> +4 zoom levels will get you 256 tiles of the current visible area.
Apr 22 13:42:32 <SpeedEvil> no - on tangogps
Apr 22 13:42:36 <SpeedEvil> on the map screen
Apr 22 13:42:39 <SpeedEvil> tap once on the map
Apr 22 13:42:54 <ScaredyCat> yes, I get a little menu  friend, point and set position
Apr 22 13:43:22 <SpeedEvil> this point, fried, geo photo, my position, pois, map download
Apr 22 13:43:29 <SpeedEvil> for me at least
Apr 22 13:43:29 <ScaredyCat> :o
Apr 22 13:43:34 <ScaredyCat> :(
Apr 22 13:43:34 <SpeedEvil> friend
Apr 22 13:45:23 <SpeedEvil> odd
Apr 22 13:45:25 <SpeedEvil> what version?
Apr 22 13:45:40 <ScaredyCat> 7
Apr 22 13:45:44 <ScaredyCat> 0.7
Apr 22 13:45:46 <ScaredyCat> 0.7
Apr 22 13:46:28 <SpeedEvil> hmm
Apr 22 13:47:00 <SpeedEvil> ah
Apr 22 13:47:08 <SpeedEvil> I think I'm on 0.8
Apr 22 13:51:44 <ScaredyCat> someone hasn't updated the .bb
Apr 22 13:53:20 * ScaredyCat fixes it
Apr 22 13:58:47 <ScaredyCat> deploying 0.8.0
Apr 22 14:00:06 <ScaredyCat> where's the config tab gone?
Apr 22 14:00:18 <SpeedEvil> you need to scroll
Apr 22 14:00:22 <ScaredyCat> nm
Apr 22 14:00:40 <ScaredyCat> needs a bigget fontmethink
Apr 22 14:05:07 <ScaredyCat> ok... so downloading a buncho map data
Apr 22 14:06:04 <ScaredyCat> d is direction?
Apr 22 14:06:36 <ScaredyCat> is there any ay to know when it's got all the data?
Apr 22 14:10:17 <SpeedEvil> du
Apr 22 14:10:20 <SpeedEvil> in the map dir
Apr 22 14:11:35 <ScaredyCat> he
Apr 22 14:11:37 <ScaredyCat> he
Apr 22 14:11:38 <ScaredyCat> heheh
Apr 22 14:11:51 <ScaredyCat> yeah, it's slow...
Apr 22 14:14:48 <ScaredyCat> 6 mb since I said that
Apr 22 14:18:15 <haakeyar> Talking about mapping (as far as I can see from the time I came online, that's what you guys are talking about). Does anybody know what Splinter is? An official app from OM? I can't find it in svn.
Apr 22 14:18:17 <haakeyar> http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Splinter_Test_Plan
Apr 22 14:18:28 <haakeyar> Looks like some mapping software.
Apr 22 14:19:16 <haakeyar> Hm... Should have looked more closely, looks like it's called diversity-nav, and that gave a couple of google results. ;)
Apr 22 14:20:29 <ScaredyCat> looks like something :D
Apr 22 14:20:43 <ScaredyCat> illume based ?
Apr 22 14:20:51 * ScaredyCat stares blankly
Apr 22 14:20:59 <haakeyar> http://projects.openmoko.org/projects/diversity/
Apr 22 14:21:11 <ScaredyCat> I hate the wiki search...
Apr 22 14:21:19 <ScaredyCat> where's the sd card compat list?
Apr 22 14:22:15 <ScaredyCat> haakeyar: seems to be a tango gps clone.... but without any actual code released
Apr 22 14:23:45 <haakeyar> ScaredyCat: They do actually have some code, but I don't know if it works yet. https://svn.projects.openmoko.org/svnroot/diversity/
Apr 22 14:24:11 <haakeyar> (I should have done a little bit more researching before asking here. Found everything about it right after asking. :P)
Apr 22 14:24:11 <ScaredyCat> mmm.. says nn released files...
Apr 22 14:25:12 <ScaredyCat> looks like you can run your own server too :)
Apr 22 14:28:34 <ScaredyCat> SpeedEvil: perhaps it would have been more snsible of me to install tangogps on my laptop and download the data :/
Apr 22 15:03:17 <SpeedEvil> I had no probem downloading 80M or so of tiles 
Apr 22 15:03:22 <SpeedEvil> over usb-ethernet
Apr 22 15:04:32 <ScaredyCat> seems to be really slow..
Apr 22 15:04:34 <ScaredyCat> :(
Apr 22 15:05:08 <ScaredyCat> btw do you know the wiki link for sd card compatability.. ?
Apr 22 15:05:17 <ScaredyCat> what's the max useable size atm ?
Apr 22 15:06:24 <spydon> doesnt it support all sdhc microsd?
Apr 22 15:09:08 <mjr> "should"
Apr 22 15:09:16 <mjr> I have an 8-gig sandisk, no prob
Apr 22 15:17:32 <ScaredyCat> sdhc mjr?
Apr 22 15:21:32 <spydon> it must be sdhc if its over 4gb I think...
Apr 22 15:22:20 <mjr> yes
Apr 22 15:23:17 <mjr> and standard sd goes up to 2 gigs (though I've heard some 4-giggers might be stretching it and work in some normal sd readers; not sure if this is true, sounds like a signedness thing if it is)
Apr 22 15:29:36 <SpeedEvil> It's not
Apr 22 15:29:51 <SpeedEvil> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/sdhc
Apr 22 15:30:03 * SpeedEvil stabs the secure digital association again.
Apr 22 15:30:31 <SpeedEvil> What sort of idiots specify - when you can get 4G cards - a new standard going only up to 32G.
Apr 22 15:31:00 <anrp> it probably won't be hit for at least a year
Apr 22 15:31:08 <ScaredyCat> mjr: does it have any sort of id or anything?
Apr 22 15:31:09 <anrp> imo
Apr 22 15:31:19 <spydon> is there any bigger microsd then 8gb?
Apr 22 15:31:21 <SpeedEvil> anrp: You can I think get 16G cards now.
Apr 22 15:31:28 <SpeedEvil> (not microSD)
Apr 22 15:31:38 <spydon> yeah ive heard that too
Apr 22 15:31:43 <anrp> oh, not microsd
Apr 22 15:31:48 <anrp> yeah that's true..
Apr 22 15:31:51 <anrp> :\
Apr 22 15:31:52 <Mek> hmm... now while running do_package for glibc-2.6.1-r4 I get a "mmap: Permission denied" error...
Apr 22 15:32:03 <anrp> uh oh D:
Apr 22 15:35:28 <nibbler_de> sd in general is problematic...
Apr 22 15:35:36 <nibbler_de> first they introduced miniSD
Apr 22 15:36:29 <nibbler_de> which was quite a nice formfactor - not too small, not too large, looked like it could easily feature 32gb cards within 2008
Apr 22 15:36:41 <nibbler_de> then suddenly it was all about micro-sd
Apr 22 15:37:58 <SpeedEvil> And microSD also has minor technical problems - no enable pin.
Apr 22 15:37:59 <nibbler_de> while i understand that with the microsd formfactor it is cheaper to manufacture cards and readers, the 32gb limitation rather sounds like an alignment to actual physically possible storage sizes
Apr 22 15:38:02 <broedje> that reminds me of an old song
Apr 22 15:38:48 <SpeedEvil> nibbo: it's not - the new SDHC standard only specifies up to 32G. There isn't a specified way in the standard to encode 64G
Apr 22 15:39:21 <broedje> All is full of love
Apr 22 15:40:08 <nibbler_de> SpeedEvil: yeah - i'm aware of that - but my guess is that the 32G is the maximum size that is reasonable to get in microSD size within the timeframe of two years, so they just set the maximum size supported by the standard to the estimated physically limited size of storage in that formfactor
Apr 22 15:40:48 <broedje> mathematical guessing i want one
Apr 22 15:41:20 * broedje has no idea about mathematics
Apr 22 15:42:19 <anrp> that may be entirely true, but sd, minisd, and microsd cards that are high capacity use the same signalling protocol so the full size cards would be limited
Apr 22 15:42:28 <anrp> full physical size
Apr 22 15:42:35 <nibbler_de> anrp: in deed - which sucks
Apr 22 15:42:53 <mjr> SDHC spesifies 32G max., but afaik the addressing used _can_ address 2 terabytes, there's just an artificial cap...
Apr 22 15:43:02 <mjr> maybe they want to sell new readers after 32G...
Apr 22 15:43:07 <anrp> yay?
Apr 22 15:43:49 <nibbler_de> anrp: but then again (unfortunately) almost nobody builds devices for miniSD or regular SD (besides digital cameras which would be better off with CF)
Apr 22 15:43:57 <mjr> ScaredyCat, the card doesn't say anything else other than "SanDisk 8GB microSDHC"
Apr 22 15:44:12 <freebzh_jabber> mjr, anyway, 32MB is enought isn't it ? ;)
Apr 22 15:44:36 <nibbler_de> 32MB isn't ;) neither is 640k nor 2G nor 32G
Apr 22 15:44:54 <mjr> apparently SDSDQR-8192-E12M (or E11M) might be the SanDisk product code
Apr 22 15:45:38 * mjr suspects that they'll just go "okay, yeah, remember that 32G cap, forget it" when push comes to shove
Apr 22 15:46:52 <mjr> (and then some old readers might have issues)
Apr 22 15:47:59 <mjr> (and yeah, on regular-sized SD, you can get 16G now, I have one on my XO ;)
Apr 22 15:49:52 * mwester loudly agrees with nibbler_de that CF is underused on Digital Cameras -- and many other devices.
Apr 22 15:50:44 * mjr likes SD on digital cameras but then I'm not a pro or need to store high-res images 10 times a second
Apr 22 15:51:34 <mjr> annyway clearly there is a reason to manufacture CF cameras also still...
Apr 22 15:54:06 <SpeedEvil> My cheap 4G card gets 12 megabytes/second.
Apr 22 15:54:09 <SpeedEvil> microsd
Apr 22 15:54:37 <SpeedEvil> That's only really the highest end cameras that need to exceed that on average.
Apr 22 15:56:41 <mjr> thus I like SD on digital cameras
Apr 22 15:58:20 <mjr> adds to card reusability and exchangeability and stuff
Apr 22 16:14:49 * CM is back working behind a stinkin firewall that doesn't allow ssh :(
Apr 22 16:23:35 <abraxa_> CM: ...but it allows IRC?
Apr 22 16:26:05 <zash> CM: but what does it allow?
Apr 22 16:26:23 <zash> https?
Apr 22 16:26:26 <roh>  .oOssh on poer 6667?)
Apr 22 16:27:21 <zash> could be hard to change the port sshd is on without ssh
Apr 22 16:27:38 <CIA-42> openmoko: 03thomas * r4390 10/trunk/src/target/opkg/ (Makefile.am libopkg/opkg.c tests/libopkg_test.c): opkg: fix problems in opkg_install_package and implement opkg_remove_package
Apr 22 16:34:09 <CM> abraxa_: Nope, home now
Apr 22 16:34:24 <CM> abraxa_: Nice with the gsoc btw, congratulations :)
Apr 22 16:34:43 <CM> zash: Yeah, I'll try using some odd ports
Apr 22 16:35:24 <abraxa_> CM: I see... bummer. And thanks :)
Apr 22 17:57:31 <ScaredyCat> SpeedEvil: you know we were talking about osm detail?
Apr 22 17:58:36 <SpeedEvil> yes.
Apr 22 17:59:27 <ScaredyCat> take a look at scap http://scap.linuxtogo.org/
Apr 22 17:59:33 <ScaredyCat> 2 maps..
Apr 22 17:59:39 <ScaredyCat> 1 shows the wires
Apr 22 17:59:51 <SpeedEvil> http://b3ta.com/questions/kids/post145929
Apr 22 17:59:51 <ScaredyCat> the other even has wind turbines
Apr 22 17:59:53 <SpeedEvil> oops
Apr 22 18:00:50 <SpeedEvil> what's th4e browser?
Apr 22 18:00:57 <ScaredyCat> ?
Apr 22 18:01:09 <SpeedEvil> oh
Apr 22 18:01:14 <SpeedEvil> the page may be a subtle clue
Apr 22 18:01:27 <ScaredyCat> that's tango gps in fullscreen landscape
Apr 22 18:01:37 <SpeedEvil> no - the web broser
Apr 22 18:02:14 <ScaredyCat> ohyeah, XorA|gone was getting all excited
Apr 22 19:31:43 <broedje> is there another way of rebooting the gpe x11 than removing the battery? moto
Apr 22 19:33:46 <abraxa_> broedje: Wrong channel? We don't deal with GPE here :)
Apr 22 19:34:05 <broedje> oh ic
Apr 22 19:34:38 <abraxa_> Maybe try #gpe or just google for it, hehe
Apr 22 19:36:31 <spydon> what is GPE? :P
Apr 22 19:37:01 <spydon> googled it...
Apr 22 19:47:26 <raboof> good to see more and more concrete activity in the freerunner dept
Apr 22 19:48:08 <raboof> will be a hard decision between getting a freerunner or waiting for what happens with android - i probably won't be able to resist going for the former :)
Apr 22 19:49:37 <ewon> this will probably get me kicked..
Apr 22 19:49:51 <ewon> but AT&T are doing free refurbed HTC TyTn IIs
Apr 22 19:49:51 <broedje> i like to get my moto anyhow dialing with any 2.6 kernel, and see then what i can do for THIS channel 
Apr 22 19:49:55 <broedje> if i can help you not getting kicked
Apr 22 19:50:07 <ewon> and I just bought one
Apr 22 19:50:09 <ewon> ;_;
Apr 22 19:50:26 <SpeedEvil> Ah. Free.
Apr 22 19:50:38 <SpeedEvil> I suppose they just give these out with no expectation.
Apr 22 19:50:43 <ewon> yeah, needed a contract plan anyway
Apr 22 19:50:45 <ewon> :)
Apr 22 19:51:31 <broedje> yae HTC is promising... but takes all the character out of the WM os
Apr 22 19:51:45 <raboof> ewon: those run only windows mobile stuff, right?
Apr 22 19:51:48 <ewon> yup
Apr 22 19:51:48 <abraxa_> broedje: WM has "character"?
Apr 22 19:51:50 <ewon> :(
Apr 22 19:52:00 <ewon> s/character/shitness/
Apr 22 19:52:04 <broedje> i like this moto here, or your freerunner is also nice
Apr 22 19:52:08 <spydon> ^^
Apr 22 19:52:44 <summatusmentis> I'm trying to decide if it's worth buying a freerunner when it comes out, or waiting till my cdma contract expires
Apr 22 19:52:45 <broedje> i dont know how, i was young, but at least gates told me in which hand to hold the mouse
Apr 22 19:53:02 <broedje> kik me
Apr 22 19:53:03 * raboof decided his next phone will have at least all the 'userspace' software open/hackable, so that rules out HTC as well as motorola afaics
Apr 22 19:53:44 <summatusmentis> raboof: it rules out everything but OM doesn't it?
Apr 22 19:54:04 <SpeedEvil> raboof: get http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.11030 ! 
Apr 22 19:54:17 <zedstar> i just got an ex-demo nokia to use as a 3.5G modem for my nokia tablet. cheap and no contract
Apr 22 19:54:17 <raboof> summatusmentis: it's conceivable that there will be android-offerings that are open
Apr 22 19:54:47 <summatusmentis> raboof: not really... isn't android closed userspace?
Apr 22 19:54:56 <SpeedEvil> USB modems are only 50 quiddish though.
Apr 22 19:55:24 <summatusmentis> 3.5G? we don't even get 3G where I live
Apr 22 19:55:26 <raboof> summatusmentis: not neccessarily afaik
Apr 22 19:55:26 <SpeedEvil> Or if you have a 3 contract - 5 quid per month with a 18 month contract and free modem.
Apr 22 19:55:41 <raboof> summatusmentis: there's no guarantee there will be an open userspace though, we'll have to see
Apr 22 19:55:43 <zedstar> 3.5g from a nokia tablet is pretty nice
Apr 22 19:56:06 <summatusmentis> raboof: I was pretty sure all userspace was gonna be closed, and that it'd be sort of like OS X is
Apr 22 19:56:07 * SpeedEvil ponders abusing 3.
Apr 22 19:56:21 <broedje> does dialing work, and isnt gpe based on OM?  generally?
Apr 22 19:56:31 <summatusmentis> OM is based on GPE, generally
Apr 22 19:56:52 <summatusmentis> that is, OM is a customized GPE, afaik
Apr 22 19:58:08 <broedje> im playing with this angstrom x11 +console r14 on the a780... it is amazing... more i ever expected since i quit playing with my vr3
Apr 22 19:58:29 <broedje> can i dial? with any angstrom image?
Apr 22 19:58:45 <summatusmentis> I think you can find a dialler for GPE
Apr 22 19:58:57 <summatusmentis> I may be mistaken though
Apr 22 19:59:44 <broedje> atm i lost the way to ssh 202 to the box, but tomorrow ill try again, and maybe dns to my provider...using ipkg *slurp*
Apr 22 20:00:05 <broedje> thnx
Apr 22 20:00:56 <broedje> i tried to change the net from .0.202 to 1.202 and that seems now to be the fault..not sure
Apr 22 20:01:13 <raboof> SpeedEvil: interesting device, but is the software really open?
Apr 22 20:01:36 <XorA|gone> SpeedEvil: it is epiphany webkit and it is bloody fast on 200Mhz gta01
Apr 22 20:02:13 <SpeedEvil> raboof: I dunno - I wasn't being serious.
Apr 22 20:02:18 <broedje> im very confused when i ssh`ed to it and made an ifdown usb0.....ssh went down... and then i noticed, that on the phone console wasnt even ifconfig installed... so HOW did i do the ifdown????
Apr 22 20:02:30 <raboof> SpeedEvil: a :)
Apr 22 20:02:51 <broedje> did i crash the whole app, and it completely disappeared or what?
Apr 22 20:02:53 <SpeedEvil> broedje: ifconfig is the version with buysbvox
Apr 22 20:03:06 <SpeedEvil> broedje: the erasy way would be to reflash it
Apr 22 20:03:45 <broedje> ah... but i am so sure i was in my phone with ssh and "ifdown usb0"  brought it all down...
Apr 22 20:04:09 <broedje> surely with a not expected crash, as i was "remote" , from my laptop
Apr 22 20:04:16 <broedje> haha erasy
Apr 22 20:04:27 <SpeedEvil> :) actually a typo
Apr 22 20:05:00 <SpeedEvil> ifdown and ifup are on the phone
Apr 22 20:05:12 <SpeedEvil> just rebooting the phone will work
Apr 22 20:05:32 <broedje> ah... i need to type like "busybox ifconfig" r8?
Apr 22 20:06:15 <SpeedEvil> no.
Apr 22 20:06:22 <SpeedEvil> what are you trying to do?
Apr 22 20:06:40 <broedje> but from the ssh it was just ifdown , im very sure... and bit confused... maybe a kind of ssh shortcut, or its a builtin in this grml zsh
Apr 22 20:07:02 <broedje> i want my usb network in the internet
Apr 22 20:07:29 <broedje> because ipkg looks like it wants to update sources and update
Apr 22 20:07:31 <SpeedEvil> you mean you want to be able to connect ot the internet from your neo through the usb interface?
Apr 22 20:07:53 <broedje> well...yea from my ... neo a780
Apr 22 20:07:58 <SpeedEvil> oh - right
Apr 22 20:08:03 <SpeedEvil> http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/USB_Networking
Apr 22 20:08:06 <SpeedEvil> may be of use
Apr 22 20:08:09 <broedje> thnx
Apr 22 20:08:20 <broedje> i need that
Apr 22 20:08:31 <SpeedEvil> though you may need to slightly modify the 'neo' end
Apr 22 20:08:38 <SpeedEvil> that;'ll give you the idea
Apr 22 20:08:56 <broedje> end?.... 
Apr 22 20:08:59 <broedje> side
Apr 22 20:10:13 <broedje> bye
Apr 22 20:13:38 <SpeedEvil> There is something vaguely disturbing about a chainmail thong.
Apr 22 20:13:40 <SpeedEvil> oops.
Apr 22 20:13:48 <SpeedEvil> sorry, mischan.
Apr 22 20:14:04 <zash> ^^
Apr 22 20:15:01 <summatusmentis> SpeedEvil: it's only weird the first time
Apr 22 20:22:02 <broedje> there are more important things than 3g and gps...speed and stability
Apr 22 20:22:27 <broedje> john, 1,13
Apr 22 21:06:08 <dcordes1> how can I build an openmoko initrd for my device (using OE, not mokomakefile)?
Apr 22 21:31:54 * raboof just installed the openmoko software into qemu
Apr 22 21:32:07 <dcordes1> anybody out there?
Apr 22 21:32:14 <raboof> interesting. would you expect the actual hardware to be faster, slower or comparable to the qemu?
Apr 22 21:32:27 <dcordes1> raboof, way way faster
Apr 22 21:32:59 <raboof> ok, also on a 2ghz host
Apr 22 21:33:14 <dcordes1> yes
Apr 22 21:33:25 <raboof> that's good ;)
Apr 22 21:33:27 <summatusmentis> qemu runs decently inside of a virtualized ubuntu
Apr 22 21:37:58 <dcordes1> nobody here who can tell me how I make an OM initrd for gta01?
Apr 22 21:43:18 <dcordes1> raboof, it's not comperable if you ask me..
Apr 22 21:45:11 <raboof> plausible - I don't have a device at all, just considering whether to get one
Apr 22 21:45:55 <raboof> the software is *really* rough, but improving that would be a nice challenge :)
Apr 22 21:46:55 <malsyned> Can any of you embedded free software hackers help me remember a term I've heard for software, especially on embedded devices like cameras, which has the capability to do more but which has been disabled by some trivial bit flips, such that it is easy to crack it and turn the full feature set on?
Apr 22 21:48:11 <raboof> malsyned: firmware? :)
Apr 22 21:48:34 <Kensan> malsyned: ask marketing.
Apr 22 21:48:40 <summatusmentis> malsyned: seem editing?
Apr 22 21:48:59 * summatusmentis has edited seems on vzw phones
Apr 22 21:49:19 <malsyned> summatusmentis: seem editing is an example of hacking this type of software.  The word I'm trying to remember ends in "-ware", I think.
Apr 22 21:49:52 <summatusmentis> malsyned: stupid-ware :-P
Apr 22 21:49:54 <malsyned> and is a pejorative.
Apr 22 21:49:55 <raboof> crippleware?
Apr 22 21:50:21 <malsyned> raboof: that might be it.
Apr 22 21:50:37 <Kensan> it's called proprietary soft/hard/firm -ware
Apr 22 21:51:43 <malsyned> Kensan: proprietary firmware doesn't all fit that description, though.  The point is that the device can do more, the software in the device contains code to do more, but certain flags stop the code which can do these things from executing.  Like disabling "raw" file saving on digital cameras, but leaving the code to save raw files in the firmware.
Apr 22 21:52:00 <malsyned> I might be thinking of "crippleware", or of some word the describes a subset of crippleware.
Apr 22 21:53:46 <Kensan> malsyned: don't take me seriously. I am just trying to instigate a flamewar ;)
Apr 22 21:54:18 <ScaredyCat> buttmonkeyware
Apr 22 21:55:19 <malsyned> All of this is a means to an end, which is figuring out what to google for to find a good article about why it's a bad idea to make such software.
Apr 22 21:55:35 <malsyned> I seem to recall that the FSF or someone like that has such an article lying around.
Apr 22 21:55:57 <Kensan> http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-software-for-freedom.html
Apr 22 21:56:08 <ScaredyCat> well, it's easy to summarise...
Apr 22 21:56:20 <ScaredyCat> don't do it it pisses people off
Apr 22 21:56:36 <malsyned> Kensan: I've been through the usual suspects on gnu.org.  Thanks though.
Apr 22 21:57:04 <Kensan> malsyned: so what specifically are you looking for? more to the point: what's the question you want to answer?
Apr 22 21:58:31 <ScaredyCat> I don;t know who wrote that Kensan - but I fell asleep 3 times in the first paragraph
Apr 22 21:58:33 <malsyned> I'm looking for an example of someone writing on the topic "don't build crippleware-driven devices, here are the reasons why, with examples of horror stories".  something like that.  I wish I could better remember the things I'd seen before.  I'm at this point just hoping to get lucky on Google.
Apr 22 21:58:45 <dcordes1> hmm free beer!
Apr 22 21:58:48 <malsyned> ScaredyCat: RMS, of course.
Apr 22 21:59:21 <ScaredyCat> explains it then malsyned
Apr 22 22:00:15 <ScaredyCat> malsyned: I think you want to look at it from the other angle...
Apr 22 22:00:26 <malsyned> which is?
Apr 22 22:00:33 <Kensan> ScaredyCat: Mr. Stallman himself.
Apr 22 22:00:38 <ScaredyCat> what *benefits* are there openin  up
Apr 22 22:00:56 <malsyned> ScaredyCat: got something for me on that front, then?
Apr 22 22:01:05 <ScaredyCat> well, emm...
Apr 22 22:01:07 <ScaredyCat> no
Apr 22 22:01:08 <ScaredyCat> :P
Apr 22 22:01:24 <thos> has anyone built a stock image recently?
Apr 22 22:01:45 <ScaredyCat> malsyned:  http://www.google.com/search?q=benefits+op+open+source+development&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&client=firefox-a
Apr 22 22:01:57 <raboof> thos: uh, I think so (if running 'make qemu' counts ;) )
Apr 22 22:02:13 <ScaredyCat> http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&hs=THl&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&q=benefits+of+open+source+development&spell=1
Apr 22 22:02:28 <thos> raboof, hmm, not really
Apr 22 22:02:42 <malsyned> ScaredyCat: I'm well familiar with the benefits of open-source software in general.  I'm just not getting much traction with the people I'm talking to on that front.  I'm trying a more gradual approach, and stopping them from making some of the bigger modern vendor blunders is my priority.
Apr 22 22:03:30 <malsyned> By which I mean DRM and secret-code-activated software.
Apr 22 22:03:31 <ScaredyCat> well, get them on cost ...
Apr 22 22:04:03 <ScaredyCat> suppot costs for customers with drm issues...
Apr 22 22:04:13 <ScaredyCat> extra staff ...
Apr 22 22:04:23 <malsyned> ScaredyCat: now we're talking.
Apr 22 22:04:24 <ScaredyCat> more costs, pensions, etc
Apr 22 22:05:05 <ScaredyCat> bigger canteen :)
Apr 22 22:06:35 <malsyned> ScaredyCat: I'll certainly approach it from that angle.
Apr 22 22:06:58 <ScaredyCat> it's always the money...
Apr 22 22:07:05 <ScaredyCat> that's what it boils down to.
Apr 22 22:08:52 <malsyned> ScaredyCat: so I'm discovering.
Apr 22 22:10:02 <SpeedEvil> Vendor blunders look different from the other side.
Apr 22 22:10:28 <SpeedEvil> 'My hardware is relatively easily copiable, I need some way to protect my IP'
Apr 22 22:12:03 <malsyned> SpeedEvil: exactly.  It's hard to talk people out of entrenched ideas like that.
Apr 22 22:12:10 <SpeedEvil> It'
Apr 22 22:12:16 <SpeedEvil> s not an entrenched idea.
Apr 22 22:12:19 <SpeedEvil> For example.
Apr 22 22:12:28 <SpeedEvil> I'm considering selling a UAV.
Apr 22 22:12:37 <SpeedEvil> The actual parts of this perhaps cost $500.
Apr 22 22:12:49 <SpeedEvil> I hope to sell for $3-5K
Apr 22 22:13:04 <raboof> or: 'I need softare X, but it doesn't give me a unique business advantage, so I might as well cooperate with the rest of the world (leveraging their existing work) to produce a well-working solution'
Apr 22 22:13:09 <SpeedEvil> The hard part is not the physical hardware.
Apr 22 22:13:21 <SpeedEvil> The hard part is the sensor fusion software and control algorithms.
Apr 22 22:13:50 <SpeedEvil> If someone can rip those out, they can copy my hardware and simply build their own, with massively more investment than I can bring to the market.
Apr 22 22:14:30 * raboof ->bed, later guys
Apr 22 22:14:33 <malsyned> SpeedEvil: I'm not sure which side of the argument you're taking up, here.
Apr 22 22:14:38 <malsyned> raboof: good night
Apr 22 22:15:32 <SpeedEvil> Just that the 'evil vendors locking down hardware' argument can look quite different from the other side.
Apr 22 22:16:44 <malsyned> SpeedEvil: I agree, it can.
Apr 22 22:17:21 <ScaredyCat> that's only cos you are an evil vendor SpeedEvil ;)
Apr 22 22:17:46 <malsyned> SpeedEvil: but realistically, isn't it likely that you'll have a massive copyright infringement claim against any competitor who took that approach?
Apr 22 22:17:53 <SpeedEvil> malsyned: nope.
Apr 22 22:18:01 <malsyned> SpeedEvil: why not?
Apr 22 22:18:03 <SpeedEvil> malsyned: not unless they actually copy the binary.
Apr 22 22:18:19 <SpeedEvil> malsyned: if they simply copy the algorithms inside that binary, they are fine.
Apr 22 22:18:19 <malsyned> SpeedEvil: oh, I thought that's what you said they were doing.
Apr 22 22:19:45 <Kensan> malsyned: it all works different in China... 
Apr 22 22:19:49 <malsyned> So, we understand what goes on in the head of the 'evil vendor'.  Would you try to talk them out of their position and into one that favored a more open approach?  If so, how would you try to steer that conversation?
Apr 22 22:19:56 <SpeedEvil> Yeah - then there is china.
Apr 22 22:20:06 <SpeedEvil> For example - I have a 'dynamode' router.
Apr 22 22:20:12 <SpeedEvil> Which uses linux/busybox
Apr 22 22:20:25 <SpeedEvil> Does it have a GPL offer in the box, or shipped sources?
Apr 22 22:20:28 <SpeedEvil> Well - no.
Apr 22 22:20:52 <malsyned> SpeedEvil: you're saying that's the kind of thing that happens with products in China?
Apr 22 22:20:55 <Kensan> malsyned: keep up the competitive advantage by innovation.
Apr 22 22:21:10 <Kensan> malsyned: the chinese have mastered the art of copying.
Apr 22 22:21:41 <Kensan> malsyned: it will take them some more years to steer away from that and really innovate themselves.
Apr 22 22:22:32 <Kensan> malsyned: it's like post-WWII Japan.
Apr 22 22:22:57 <SpeedEvil> Kensan: that only works if you're a player of comparable size to the people that want to copy your code - and can innovate fast enough.
Apr 22 22:23:09 <Kensan> malsyned: but that's a different topic... don't want to derail the "thread" of thought here.
Apr 22 22:23:20 <malsyned> Kensan: no problem.  I'm always open to other perspectives.
Apr 22 22:23:40 <SpeedEvil> Kensan: if they have the funding to dramatically outcompete you simply by stamping out knock-offs of your current product at half the price, you're kind of screwed.
Apr 22 22:23:41 <Kensan> SpeedEvil: you need to determine which is your core competence and "guard" that against your competition.
Apr 22 22:24:10 <Kensan> SpeedEvil: indeed.
Apr 22 22:24:33 <malsyned> But the question is, are things like code locking and DRM effective at that?  Are they counter-productive?  Do they just bother customers without actually protecting you from serious competitors?
Apr 22 22:25:12 <Kensan> Speedevil: but opensource is also a way for smaller player to level the playing field. Vendor-lockin etc is always in the benefit of the ones holding the largest market share.
Apr 22 22:26:30 <Kensan> malsyned: companies should embrace opensource to avoid the "not-invented-here"-syndrom. Use opensource for infrastructure stuff
Apr 22 22:26:31 <SpeedEvil> malsyned: it depends. For example - '3' in the UK used to give away 3G phones fairly freely in the UK, on pay-as-you-talk plans. They had to _really_ tighten up their locking after large numbers were simply purchased for resale in third countries.
Apr 22 22:27:36 <malsyned> There's the issue of using open source within the enterprise for infrastructure stuff, which I not only agree with you on but can hold my own pretty well on, in conversations.
Apr 22 22:28:01 <malsyned> Then there's the issue of, if you're producing proprietary code, how hard is it worth trying to keep it protected.  What lengths should you go to, what measures should you avoid?
Apr 22 22:28:08 <SpeedEvil> In the phone and other sectors where the hardware is subsidised, there are powerful reasons to not allow the consumer complete dreedom to unlock it.
Apr 22 22:28:37 <malsyned> Sure.  But openmoko is working to change all that, right? ;)
Apr 22 22:28:49 <SpeedEvil> Well - ...
Apr 22 22:29:01 <SpeedEvil> Openmoko is rather orthogonal to that.
Apr 22 22:29:07 <Kensan> malsyned: with infrastructure I also mean all the things you need in *every* software project.
Apr 22 22:29:30 <malsyned> Kensan: sure.  Like it makes sense to use Linux as your OS, gcc as your compiler, glibc as your C library, &c
Apr 22 22:29:37 <SpeedEvil> malsyned: In that it's 'just another phone o0perating system' 
Apr 22 22:30:18 <Kensan> malsyned: libraries etc etc. long list. it's also important to send your stuff upstream since "it will be taken care of". etc
Apr 22 22:30:26 <malsyned> OK, time for me to take off.  Thanks guys.  It's been interesting.
Apr 22 22:30:34 <SpeedEvil> malsyned: the actual production and sale of the phones remains more or less the same. I - for example - can get a subsidised nokia 37u8473 - as it's passed the vendors tests as to what they require. I can't get a subsidised neo.
Apr 22 22:31:02 <Kensan> malsyned: btw don't take me too seriously, I am just joe coding monkey *hehe*
Apr 22 22:31:03 <SpeedEvil> (Even if it was a user-acceptable functional phone at this point)
Apr 22 22:31:21 <Kensan> meaning: I might have it all wrong ;)
Apr 22 22:42:28 <roh> SpeedEvil that subsidising business varies massively
Apr 22 22:44:17 <roh> SpeedEvil e.g. here in .de the dealer in a shop does not neccessarily need to sell you a special phone or so. he can sell you anything, because that subsidary is basicyally the bigger part of a bonus he gets for selling the contract and which he uses to lower the price (so peple can get 1E phones with 24month contract)
Apr 22 22:44:40 <roh> means, if the dealer is cool and resells neos, you could buy it subsidaried also
Apr 22 23:25:24 <roh> brrr... all this senseless discussion about plugs and adaptors... am i glad we only have C and F here
Apr 22 23:36:51 <SpeedEvil> roh: yeah - it varies hugely. Not in the UK - AIUI. And the vendors that do provide 'sim only' contracts do not actually make them cheaper by the cost of the phone.
Apr 22 23:44:47 <roh> well.. airstrip one.. seems to be us influence (keep people as dumb as possible, sell them shit with no alternative)
Apr 22 23:44:59 <roh> (not intended to offend anyone)
Apr 22 23:53:55 * mwester wonders if roh perhaps has the schematics for the GTA01 handy...
Apr 22 23:56:41 <roh> mwester: of course
Apr 22 23:58:07 <roh> mwester: need something specific?
Apr 23 00:03:14 <mwester> yes, if you are permitted to tell me
Apr 23 00:03:45 <mwester> I'm wondering about the connection from the s3c2410 UART to the GSM modem -- what is the mux chip, does it have specs?
Apr 23 00:03:55 <roh> there is no chip
Apr 23 00:04:07 <roh> its firmware only inside the gsm arm
Apr 23 00:04:29 <mwester> So where does the console connect? to the GSM?
Apr 23 00:06:11 <mwester> Specifically I'm observing that when the GSM wakes up the system from suspend, data is transmitted immediately after the 50606 driver is resumed -- I'm wondering if that is coincidence.  That then brings up the question of how is the PMU connected to the GSM and the device that muxes the serial port?
Apr 23 00:07:03 <roh> mwester: there is a latch in between
Apr 23 00:07:08 <mwester> This is important because I think this may impact how to resume without risking overruns; it would be pointless to manipulate the I/O lines if the device on the other end were unpowered (for example).
Apr 23 00:07:36 <mwester> Ah, and is the latch powered by a bus switched by the PMU?  and what clocks it to latch the contents?
Apr 23 00:07:48 <roh> its controlled by GSM_EN which has a pullup and a line to EINT2/GPF2
Apr 23 00:08:17 <roh> controlled by the regular soc, not pmu
Apr 23 00:11:38 <roh> the latch is powered by io_3v3.. thats sane
Apr 23 00:12:02 <roh> hm.. one could remove 2 resistors and add 2 nc and have the modem tx and rx on the usb conn *shiver*
Apr 23 00:12:10 <roh> but no cts/rts
Apr 23 00:14:48 <roh> the latch is a SN74LV125ARGYR, means negative logic control line, noninverting or so
Apr 23 00:15:07 <mwester> Ah, that's a rather simple device, IIRC.
Apr 23 00:17:10 <roh> jap. it only switches all 4 lines from/to the modem through to it.
Apr 23 00:17:40 <roh> the rx and tx on the debug conn are connected directly to the samsung.
Apr 23 00:17:53 <mwester> How is the console disabled when the modem is activated?  does it have its own buffer/line driver that is disabled when the modem is enabled?
Apr 23 00:17:55 <roh> so you should 'see' the modem talking there
Apr 23 00:18:21 <mwester> Ah, but I don't see the modem talking there...
Apr 23 00:18:30 <roh> uhm.. well.. see the cpu talking to the modem and you can talk to the cpu,
Apr 23 00:18:47 <roh> eeheheh.. would need some hacky 2nd serial to see both directions
Apr 23 00:18:55 <mwester> Ah, of course.
Apr 23 00:19:34 <roh> one could mod a debugboard for that. or a moko
Apr 23 00:20:00 <mwester> :) Now there's the problem :D  I don't have enough of either.
Apr 23 00:20:15 <SpeedEvil> mwester: or I think you can get to the GPS CTS/RTS pads easily 
Apr 23 00:20:32 <SpeedEvil> I seem to recall tehy are brought out to solderpads just above the LCD
Apr 23 00:20:36 <roh> *remark* really need a 2-way usb serial sniffer with all blinkylights on, flow control, wiggling of single lines, hw as well as sw uart and baudrate measurement
Apr 23 00:20:44 <SpeedEvil> these can be configured as /dev/ttySAC3
Apr 23 00:20:58 <mwester> roh: plus the scope on the interrupt line from the GSM.
Apr 23 00:21:01 <SpeedEvil> these can be configured as /dev/ttySAC2
Apr 23 00:21:15 <SpeedEvil> If the aim is simply to have an uninterrupted console
Apr 23 00:22:03 <mwester> I would really *LOVE* somebody to confirm that there are no glitches on any of those signals during suspend and resume; I have no such confidence as it seems to me that the serial driver was never written to save the UART state; rather it seemed to be written to re-init each time.
Apr 23 00:22:40 * SpeedEvil only has an analog scope, which isnt' great for that.
Apr 23 00:22:46 <roh> i fear something like that.
Apr 23 00:22:48 <mwester> SpeedEvil:  one of the big "regrets" of the GTA01, I suspect, is the split use of ttySAC0 for console and GSM -- it's hard to get worse.
Apr 23 00:23:06 <roh> mwester: agreed.
Apr 23 00:23:12 <SpeedEvil> mwester: yeah - you don't have to use SAC0 for console though - you can make it SAC2 I think.
Apr 23 00:23:24 <SpeedEvil> If you don't care about the GPS not working 
Apr 23 00:23:43 <mwester> For example, as you dig through the suspend/resume code, you find that the console changes fundamental behavior (the port is initi'd twice, with different termios structures, for example).
Apr 23 00:23:44 <roh> the only thing is, you cannot disconnect the gps, only power it down and hope
Apr 23 00:23:57 <SpeedEvil> roh: oh yeah. Hmm.
Apr 23 00:24:02 <mwester> SpeedEvil:  u-boot would need to initialize SAC2 for that to work; I tried it.
Apr 23 00:24:10 <SpeedEvil> mwester: yes, it would.
Apr 23 00:24:58 <mwester> I think it's easier to disable the console in inappropriate spots, and avoid the problems that way.
Apr 23 00:25:31 <SpeedEvil> roh: I suppose it depends if the GPS loads the lines when powered down enough to ignore it serial input.
Apr 23 00:25:50 * SpeedEvil ponders.
Apr 23 00:26:02 <SpeedEvil> Sigh. I need a digital scope of some description.
Apr 23 00:26:02 <mwester> But, but, but - I want my GPS too! :D
Apr 23 00:26:20 <SpeedEvil> mwester: yeah - this would only be a debug tool for looking at glitches
Apr 23 00:26:46 <SpeedEvil> roh: happen to know anything about the GSM-firmware-flashing-in-the-field quesiton?
Apr 23 00:26:52 <roh> SpeedEvil me too. friends of mine at the cccb have a agilent 2+16channel mixed signal dso.. thats cool
Apr 23 00:27:09 <SpeedEvil> roh: that's a bit more than what I'm looking at.
Apr 23 00:27:15 <roh> means 2 channel dso (still ctr, no lcd) and 16 channel logic input
Apr 23 00:27:31 <SpeedEvil> roh: unfortunately. Ebay, china.
Apr 23 00:27:33 <roh> superb for this problem, but sadly i cannot just get it from there.
Apr 23 00:27:34 <mwester> Well, I'm changing strategies now, and I'm just going to disable and delay things longer, and hope that all glitching is done and over.  Hence the quesitons about the PMU; I think I shall wait until after the PMU is init'd to enale the GSM.
Apr 23 00:28:15 <mwester> BTW, I suspect that the MMC resume is adding ~ 200 - 230 ms to the resume time.  We'll need to do something about that.
Apr 23 00:28:19 <roh> mwester: there is this spike on all gpio on suspend.. could that change state somewhere?
Apr 23 00:28:57 <mwester> roh: I wouldn't have thought it long enough to do so, but it is certainly possible.
Apr 23 00:29:02 <roh> its while powering off rails. there seems to be some discrepancy between what the arm wants as order and whats possible with that pmu (but there isnt a more fitting one afaik)
Apr 23 00:29:59 <roh> well.. my assumption atm is to get a moko, wire all 4 modem lines at the arm to it and measure it
Apr 23 00:30:12 <roh> s/moko + 4channel dso/
Apr 23 00:31:00 <mwester> I suspect there will be a number of very low cost GTA01's on eBay as soon as the 02 ships, perhaps that would be a good way to aquire some stock for testing purposes.  (I lack equipment to do it correctly, I'm afraid).
Apr 23 00:31:07 <roh> we could try asking seanc if they have a board wired up like that already in taiwan
Apr 23 00:31:23 * SpeedEvil wants brokenmoko bits.
Apr 23 00:31:28 <SpeedEvil> Cases, ...
Apr 23 00:31:40 <roh> mokos shouldnt be the problem. time and soldering caps are it ;)
Apr 23 00:31:50 <SpeedEvil> I think I've got a way to fit a wifi card into my GTA01.
Apr 23 00:31:58 <mwester> That might not be a bad idea.  The GSM module is the same on the GTA02, and if this is a kernel/GSM problem, we'll have it on the 02 as well (although that has twice the FIFO on the UARTs IIRC)
Apr 23 00:32:02 <SpeedEvil> But I don't want to butcher my only case.
Apr 23 00:32:14 <roh> SpeedEvil rip out the speakers, wire it to spi?
Apr 23 00:32:30 <SpeedEvil> roh: I have a USB board only, so it'd be that.
Apr 23 00:33:00 <SpeedEvil> roh: rip out the GPS antenna, place board where it is, place small ceramic antenna on top of where GPS antenna was.
Apr 23 00:33:11 <SpeedEvil> roh: rip out the GPS antenna, place board where it is, place small ceramic GPS antenna on top of where GPS antenna was.
Apr 23 00:33:13 <roh> mwester: as more as i think about it i am quite sure the issue has to do with that latch and the spikes (which should be gone on gta02 , i think)
Apr 23 00:34:29 <mwester> If we assume that a spike occurs as the PMU powers things up, and that this affects the latch, that could account for the consistent pattern of the overrun.
Apr 23 00:36:27 <summatusmentis> CRAP! Just deleted the VM I had openmoko in
Apr 23 00:39:52 <dcordes1> downer
Apr 23 01:40:47 <bmk789> Will i be able to connect my BT headphones to my Freerunner and make calls with the headphones?  or is that one of those things that seems easy but is almost impossible in the FOSS world?
Apr 23 01:40:51 <SpeedEvil> yes
Apr 23 01:41:02 <SpeedEvil> in the 'the hardware is there' sense
Apr 23 01:41:42 <bmk789> but i dont imagine it will be able to do it out of the box right?
Apr 23 01:48:48 <SpeedEvil> Do the headphones have microphone on them?
Apr 23 01:49:42 <bmk789> yes
Apr 23 01:51:04 <SpeedEvil> I recall mentions on the wiki of bluetooth calling working - but not to initiate calls.
Apr 23 01:53:24 <bmk789> hmm, ill have to search the wiki
Apr 23 01:53:49 <SpeedEvil> just search onb bluetooth
Apr 23 01:53:51 <SpeedEvil> there isn't much
Apr 23 02:15:44 <jadams_> my ipod touch just came in
Apr 23 02:16:27 * SpeedEvil turns off his innuendo filter.
Apr 23 02:17:07 <mjr> what, you have an innuendo filter?
Apr 23 02:17:55 <jadams_> is there any effort being made to super-simplify gprsification on the moko?
Apr 23 02:17:56 <rtm> The ipod touch is not fun.   It comes with functional software.
Apr 23 02:18:11 <jadams_> rtm: I don't agree with it philosophically.  But jailbroken, it's pretty fun
Apr 23 02:18:59 <rtm> jadams: I guess a fugitive ipod is ok.
Apr 23 02:19:34 <mjr> the problem with fugitive iThings is you still pay the jailer..
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Wed Apr 23 02:59:56 2008