**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Thu May 08 02:59:57 2008 May 08 03:15:17 if only my 1973 supported.. oh say... ringing... or hitting numbers while i was on the phone, so i could navigate menus... ;) May 08 03:19:47 Why would you want it to ring while you're on the phone? May 08 03:20:22 * nab waves May 08 03:20:27 Greetings raster May 08 03:20:51 moo May 08 03:21:16 That was seriously fun this morning. May 08 03:21:25 The Windows fellow. May 08 03:21:25 :-) May 08 03:21:26 mooing was fun? May 08 03:21:31 oooh May 08 03:21:38 that May 08 03:21:45 Almost too easy. May 08 03:21:45 :P May 08 03:22:02 i'm actually rather bored of the whole windows vs linux thing May 08 03:22:08 totally "so last week" May 08 03:22:14 i like choclate May 08 03:22:18 he lieks vanilla May 08 03:22:19 deal with it May 08 03:22:25 :) May 08 03:22:29 yeah, mac is the best :) May 08 03:22:33 i'm sticking to my chocolate May 08 03:22:42 * raster skewers the troll May 08 03:22:51 May 08 03:23:18 As one might say May 08 03:23:23 fenfir: they have a place for you.. it's under the bridge... with your iphone :) hehehehe May 08 03:23:27 "That discussion is so pre VA-IPO" May 08 03:23:31 :-) May 08 03:23:32 haha May 08 03:23:37 (and yes - i know it was a joke) May 08 03:23:38 :) May 08 03:23:55 nab: don't remind me of those days... May 08 03:24:10 That was supposed to be a joke. May 08 03:24:25 i was at va May 08 03:24:30 I know. :-) May 08 03:24:33 hehehe May 08 03:24:39 * nab notes his comedy is awful on IRC May 08 03:24:43 and most employees got rather screwed on stock May 08 03:25:08 * nab notes he once tried to get $$ from Larry Augstin May 08 03:25:19 Once he left VA and starting do his VC thing May 08 03:25:20 a few i know are still paying off bills to the irs thanks to pre-taxing of suspected profits... that never happened May 08 03:25:23 But that is another story. ;P May 08 03:25:30 Ugh May 08 03:25:37 that apr shit May 08 03:25:42 where if your options are $1 May 08 03:25:45 It sucks when a company does not setup the stock plan properly May 08 03:25:47 and current price $10 May 08 03:26:00 irs taxes you on PURCHASe o a profit of $9 May 08 03:26:02 even if u dont sell May 08 03:26:11 then of coruse stock tanks to $0.5 May 08 03:26:19 but u still ow the irs tax of $9 per share May 08 03:26:24 hoo-fucking-ray May 08 03:26:52 Still though, better LWCEs back then May 08 03:26:53 anyway May 08 03:26:59 i dont want to think about that stuff May 08 03:27:11 My apolgoes for bringing it up. May 08 03:27:19 no worries May 08 03:27:22 :) May 08 03:27:24 Well today, they don't let sub 18 kids into LWCE May 08 03:27:34 Its only for "Open Source Professionals" May 08 03:27:36 back to making my code nicer May 08 03:27:50 first May 08 03:27:52 The sub 18 kids where the most interested ones when you showed them your wares May 08 03:27:55 let me do my mornign rebuild May 08 03:28:01 But anyways. May 08 03:28:03 :-) May 08 03:28:07 yeah - i remember that May 08 03:28:19 and those 18 year old kids are now professionals May 08 03:28:22 usijng and promoting oss May 08 03:29:02 That was probably the most fun I had @ LWCE was working the booths and playing carnival barker showing off a hack. :-) May 08 03:29:14 Definately. May 08 03:29:41 Not selling a whole lot mind you, but really showing folks something they had never seen. :P May 08 03:29:54 hehehe May 08 03:30:06 i'm really keen on the whole opne phone thing tho May 08 03:30:07 Fun stuff. May 08 03:30:08 linux on phones May 08 03:30:16 Very cool. May 08 03:30:18 i think its going to be the start of a whole new thing May 08 03:30:26 something ms cant beat with its 98% market share May 08 03:30:27 I would be hard pressed not to agree. May 08 03:30:31 somthing where u have multiple players May 08 03:30:35 but no one owning 90%+ May 08 03:30:49 linux likely will take 60% of the phone market in the next decade May 08 03:30:56 not 90% May 08 03:31:04 * nab listens May 08 03:31:04 i suspect winmob will still be around May 08 03:31:09 apple is the new dark horse entrant May 08 03:31:12 Heh May 08 03:31:23 Well, MSFT can't get an iSCSI Initiator running on their mobile stuff May 08 03:31:26 i didn't see that coming 7 years ago when i did my analysis May 08 03:31:36 (They where always one of the ones drooling over that during demos @ LWCE) May 08 03:31:45 But now we have that. :-) May 08 03:31:49 hehehe May 08 03:31:58 actually iscsi does seem nice May 08 03:31:58 Actually, we have had it all along. May 08 03:32:01 :-) May 08 03:32:17 though it seems to have a fairly specific use case May 08 03:32:23 There have been alot of doubters for the mobile block level IP storage stuff over the years. May 08 03:32:42 And I am still not sure if it will actually end up being simply "remote filesystem mounts" for the long term. May 08 03:33:12 I think the lightweight cluster filesystem stuff with RO mounts for mobile access is pretty interesting May 08 03:33:15 somehow i suspect smb or some other remote file sharing proto to really b the way things will go May 08 03:33:28 local flash/storage would be for private data and "cache" May 08 03:33:39 Well May 08 03:33:44 as these fs's would need to be functional in offline mode too May 08 03:33:47 I have a link for you about that.. :-) May 08 03:33:56 (I have put years of thought into this :-) May 08 03:34:02 sure May 08 03:34:19 i've put about 10 minutes thought into it May 08 03:34:20 :) May 08 03:34:21 http://linux-iscsi.org/index.php/ISCSI/GSM May 08 03:34:40 There is a section near the bottom wrt NAS/SAN on celluar links May 08 03:34:53 Actually May 08 03:34:54 * ) Why can't I just use NFS on my cell phone? May 08 03:34:54 Lack of support for multiple communication paths and active-active recovery on communication path failure for starters. (see below) Also the lack of world wide unique naming (WWN) and discovery infrastructure does not help when it comes to scaling towards millions of nodes. May 08 03:35:26 sure May 08 03:35:32 but scsi is block-level May 08 03:35:35 thats a problem May 08 03:35:40 Even the discovery bit wrt ISCSI needs another protocol (iSNS) to really scale the node count. May 08 03:35:47 iSNS == Internet STorage Naming Service May 08 03:35:52 unless u run the same fs on top May 08 03:35:52 Basically DNS for iSCSI and iFCP sans May 08 03:35:57 and everyone agrees to runt he same fs May 08 03:35:59 RFC-4171 for those keeping track. ;-) May 08 03:36:00 and u enforce that;.. May 08 03:36:04 raster: WElll May 08 03:36:11 I have also thought about that problem for years May 08 03:36:13 :-) May 08 03:36:16 then again - i may have a simplistic view of iscsi May 08 03:36:22 The solution I have come up with is the following May 08 03:36:26 as just an ip replacement transport for scsi May 08 03:36:37 yeah, its definately not that. :-) May 08 03:36:53 So, you have a LIO-VM running an iSCSI Initiator May 08 03:37:05 With all of the Linux FS drivers, include OCFS2 for the shared storage cluster mount May 08 03:37:16 These LIO-VMs are running R/W mounts May 08 03:37:26 ocfs2 is open? May 08 03:37:31 The mobile stuff running embedded linux also has these storage goodies May 08 03:37:33 May 08 03:37:40 GPL since v1 May 08 03:37:54 (The author was an early investor in my former startup) May 08 03:37:56 but anyways May 08 03:37:59 and ocfs2 handles simultaneous read and write from multiple clients and doesnt result in a totally fucked up fs? May 08 03:38:34 Well, it was originally designed for high speed shared storage for Oracle Datbases. May 08 03:38:50 And I use for self hosted production @ linux-iscsi.org May 08 03:38:57 Recently, I ported it over to the Maemo stuff May 08 03:39:04 sure May 08 03:39:14 http://linux-iscsi.org/index.php/OCFS2/iSCSI_for_OS-2008 May 08 03:39:17 but how well will it work over high latency links with often low or abysmally low bandwidth? May 08 03:39:41 (yes it does improve all the time.. but gsm vs 100mbit+lan is quite a world apart) May 08 03:39:41 :) May 08 03:39:59 Yes, so obvious ISDN speeds for GPRS is not going to work with much other than R/O mounted ext3 a few GB large May 08 03:40:02 and yes May 08 03:40:04 (That is what I know works) May 08 03:40:06 i'll just be glad when my cellphone is usable. :) May 08 03:40:11 Soo, that means 3G and WiMax May 08 03:40:12 cost for ovet-the-air bandwdith is a majof factor May 08 03:40:17 (reading your stuff) May 08 03:40:19 At least for the long term May 08 03:40:34 sure May 08 03:40:38 I have been using ESX devices with GPRS for a while for the basic stuff May 08 03:40:40 t this point, my neo is not quite usable. its won't *ring*. May 08 03:40:44 even 3g vs 3.5g is quite a difference May 08 03:40:45 eg: the 2 GB ext3 mounts May 08 03:40:46 especially latency May 08 03:40:59 So, I have been talking with the OCFS2 folks about this.. May 08 03:40:59 and juri is right May 08 03:41:05 it'll vibrate, but i can't find any documentation on making my phone actually RING when i get a call. May 08 03:41:05 we need the core stuff working and solid first May 08 03:41:06 ie May 08 03:41:08 phone calls May 08 03:41:09 sms May 08 03:41:11 The Wireless R/O mounts May 08 03:41:18 power-saving modes (suspend/resume etc.) May 08 03:41:22 basic basic ui May 08 03:41:27 May 08 03:41:28 and basic data sessions May 08 03:41:35 get that stuff really solid May 08 03:41:43 ACtually, I have been running into problems on the N800 bringing in a 900 GB ext3 mount May 08 03:41:43 and experiment with some things on top like iscsi May 08 03:41:44 nfs May 08 03:41:46 smb May 08 03:41:47 whatever May 08 03:42:01 With 5000 albums in a awful directory layout (a single dir :-) May 08 03:42:08 and once the base is rock solid bring the experiments into the areana one by one May 08 03:42:21 May 08 03:42:29 The idea with LIO-OpenMoko is two fold: May 08 03:42:36 wrt the developers May 08 03:43:02 if anyone has a moment, i'd really like my phone to ring. even if it won't place calls reliably. my FSF mandate says "use it!" ;P May 08 03:43:05 Allow basically unlimited storage access with iSCSI using Linux/Mac/Win on the target side with LIO-VM May 08 03:43:15 LIO-VM == iSCSI Target running in a virtual machine May 08 03:43:22 btw May 08 03:43:31 with iscsi (readng) is there any way it can work offline? May 08 03:43:33 eg: you plug in a USB drive to the VM, it automatically gets exported, and you can see it on your openmoko device May 08 03:44:10 raster: You mean similar to what things like CodaFS does for offline access..? May 08 03:44:14 yup May 08 03:44:18 example: May 08 03:44:26 i have my addressbook/calendar May 08 03:44:35 i want to get rid of this syncing goop May 08 03:44:42 i want to just put the data in a fs blob May 08 03:44:58 when i go home and on 802.11 it reconnects to my home "san" and syncs up changes May 08 03:45:05 or i plug in a usb thumbdrive May 08 03:45:07 or usb hdd May 08 03:45:23 Well, I can't say I have ever heard of anyone doing offline operation below the FS layer.. May 08 03:45:31 or if i am on a 3g network and i have an unlimited dataplan it is sncing to a server the telco provides for me as part of my access plan May 08 03:45:37 so if i lose my phone - never worry May 08 03:45:44 i have multiple copies of my stuff May 08 03:45:45 And definately traditional iSCSI (RFC-3720 was not designed to do that. May 08 03:45:46 buy new phone May 08 03:45:49 put in credentials May 08 03:45:56 bam - all the stuff syncs back down May 08 03:46:00 local cache populates May 08 03:46:03 if i am offlines May 08 03:46:09 i can read/write at will and not care May 08 03:46:13 THATS what i want May 08 03:46:21 So that sounds more like a local FS feature, that once it determined the VFS request was not coming back for an extended period of time.. May 08 03:46:34 sure May 08 03:46:35 i know May 08 03:46:36 It would make the local write to memory, and then let the equivilant of sync() complete May 08 03:46:49 thats why i believe a fs layer solution is what it will end up being May 08 03:46:50 I dont' know if any of the real next gen FS stuff is working on that May 08 03:46:56 stuff like brtfs May 08 03:47:08 May 08 03:47:09 right now u have a collection of sync pprotocol goop thats just awful May 08 03:47:25 May 08 03:47:26 syncml May 08 03:47:26 i'm more worried about working than i am syncing. :) May 08 03:47:30 microsoft's activsync May 08 03:47:34 plam's old stuff May 08 03:47:35 ... May 08 03:47:37 mpre of them around May 08 03:47:44 juri_: i know :) May 08 03:47:45 Oh btw, so back to the points for LIO-OpenMoko devs May 08 03:47:55 raster: jpilot! :) May 08 03:47:59 So 1) A target side LIO-VM that is completed automated that runs on Linux/mac/Win May 08 03:48:01 juri_: hell - only yesterday did my gta02 finally suspend and resume. and not totally fuck up on resume May 08 03:48:03 Which is done May 08 03:48:04 so.... May 08 03:48:15 so thats why my phone keeps dieing. :) May 08 03:48:17 take that as a relative state of things May 08 03:48:18 :) May 08 03:48:26 And 2) Make iSCSI initiator access on GTA02 the fastest method to access a struct block_device May 08 03:48:44 I believe I saw something like 900Kb for userspace tcp tests with that wifi ASIC, yes..? May 08 03:48:57 suspend takes 2 seconds or so May 08 03:49:03 resume last i timed it was about 5-8 seconds May 08 03:49:08 which is useless really May 08 03:49:12 Actually, 2b) should be allow the largest filesytems mounts to exist over LIO-OpenMoko May 08 03:49:26 Because we will be testing that 900 GB mount. :-) May 08 03:49:34 as we have currently no viable low power mode we can go in/out of that is fast to go into and come back out of May 08 03:49:38 so screw calls... May 08 03:49:39 :) May 08 03:50:04 Ok, so the userspace network I/O tests with Wifi on the GTA02 are ~900 Kb/sec, yes..? May 08 03:50:17 nab: thats all fine.. :) ut i dont think its really a killer network fs for mobiles May 08 03:50:26 as we need to deal with going on/off the network all the time May 08 03:50:40 a fs-lvel solution i really see is more likely to win the space there May 08 03:50:58 raster: As I mentioned above traditional iSCSI eg: "remote filesystem mounts below block) may not be the long term solution May 08 03:50:59 mobiles are powerful little machines so cpu, ram etc. isnt an issue for any of this May 08 03:51:20 (This is another one of those projects I have been looking at for years :-) May 08 03:51:27 Sure May 08 03:51:33 Btw, iSCSI has been run in DSLinux May 08 03:52:01 And could easily push 125 Kb/sec on the 70 Mhz MMUless ARM May 08 03:52:12 (That was the limit of the SIO bus between the two chips btw) May 08 03:52:41 So yes, I agree it comes down to network connectivity for the mobile case May 08 03:53:05 But there are LIO-DEVs who are using iSCSI Initiators in VMs on 3g networks May 08 03:53:16 With very good results so far. May 08 03:53:48 But the Openmoko phones are the first ones that I can really push the iSCSI/GRPS stuff to the limit and see what it does May 08 03:54:06 As I mentioned above, debugging on ESX is pretty hard May 08 03:54:46 Oh yeah, with iSCSi there is a bunch of nice stuff for active-active recovery of storage tasks, and the ability to multiplex acorss multiple TCP streams May 08 03:54:52 yeah May 08 03:54:56 Or simply use SCTP and multihoming May 08 03:54:57 :-) May 08 03:54:59 network connectivity is he big factor May 08 03:55:04 (WHich is also supported is the current builds) May 08 03:55:10 and i dont see the world being 100% covered at all times any time soon May 08 03:55:11 :) May 08 03:55:17 May 08 05:16:22 does anyone know where i can find the cp command that is cause me grief when i do 'make openmoko-devel image' May 08 05:16:23 | Making install in tests May 08 05:16:23 | make[3]: Nothing to be done for `install-exec-am'. May 08 05:16:24 | make[3]: Nothing to be done for `install-data-am'. May 08 05:16:24 | cp: illegal option -- t May 08 05:16:24 | usage: cp [-R [-H | -L | -P]] [-fi | -n] [-pvX] source_file target_file May 08 05:16:26 | cp [-R [-H | -L | -P]] [-fi | -n] [-pvX] source_file ... target_directory May 08 05:16:28 NOTE: Task failed: /Users/fenfir/Documents/moko/qemu/build/tmp/work/i386-darwin/autoconf-native-2.61-r1/temp/log.do_stage.29937 May 08 05:17:52 i'd recomend changing out your cp binary for a cp script that echoes its arguments to a file, and calls the real CP. that way you'll know where it stopped. May 08 05:57:28 fenfir: it looks like the wrong cp is used, looks like one from busybox... May 08 05:58:19 yeah, it is the wrong cp, i'm trying to find it and see if i can drop the -t and move the destination to the end May 08 06:00:24 unfortunately the OE os x site on their wiki is currently vandalized, so i'm stucking figuring this crap out, though i'm sure there is an easier way somewhere May 08 06:52:10 hi May 08 06:52:15 what's this group all about http://www.openhandsetalliance.com ? May 08 06:52:39 meh, android May 08 06:52:56 yeah May 08 06:52:58 what's the go with it? May 08 06:53:36 so the freerunner will run whatever, but debian runs on it currently? May 08 06:55:09 nope, openmoko runs on it :) May 08 06:55:21 which is a heavily modified almost-debian May 08 06:56:15 hehe ah ok May 08 06:56:29 You can actually run a full debian, if you wish. May 08 06:56:37 so is there a chance down the line of just whacking ubuntu mobile on it? that kinda idea May 08 06:57:09 most likely, might be missing drivers though May 08 06:57:14 it seem's that nokia is trying to port ubuntu on the nokia n800&co May 08 06:57:19 See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Debian May 08 06:57:19 would probably involve patching May 08 06:57:24 and for arm in general May 08 06:57:43 pyknite: I have an n800, should be interesting May 08 06:58:11 heh, gimp on a mobile phone. opensource++ :) May 08 06:58:37 n800 is arm too? May 08 06:58:39 Yeah, I'll bet gimp really screams on a machine with no hardware floating point. May 08 06:58:43 Outlander: yep May 08 06:58:48 rtm: heh May 08 06:58:55 doc|home: http://arstechnica.com/journals/linux.ars/2008/04/23/nokia-internet-tablets-get-ubuntu-and-qt May 08 06:59:05 Outlander: yeah May 08 06:59:09 pyknite: thanks May 08 06:59:35 cool May 08 06:59:48 I'd kind of like if there'd be one toolkit, having two is a bit bloated on such a small device :/ May 08 06:59:51 n800 looks neato...how easy/hard is it to type with that touch screen? May 08 06:59:59 spose you could use a bluetooth keyboard May 08 07:00:16 Outlander: I wouldn't want to write the complete works of doc on it, but it's usable May 08 07:00:25 heh ah ok cool May 08 07:00:32 so i can irc and im from it? ;) May 08 07:00:37 it a sort of sponsoring... but i don't know why, because nokia just have bought trolltech May 08 07:01:00 yep, you won't win any debates in irc though, *tap* *poke* *tap* *backspace* *tap* May 08 07:01:28 the n810 has a proper(ish) keyboard May 08 07:01:35 much more expensive though :/ May 08 07:02:12 that the one where the keyboard pops out? May 08 07:02:51 good morning May 08 07:03:04 Outlander: sliding keyboard May 08 07:04:27 Outlander: yep May 08 07:04:32 yep, but the last version have no keyboard May 08 07:04:47 pyknite: the n810 does May 08 07:05:52 doc|home: yeah i know, i was talking about the last version (n800,n770) ;) May 08 07:06:00 ah May 08 07:06:13 * doc|home smells an excuse :P May 08 07:07:22 n800 is pretty cheap in the us May 08 07:07:32 * doc|home nods May 08 07:07:41 but the keyboard and the gps are really quite neat :P May 08 07:08:15 then you want an n810, not so cheap :) I don't care about gps personally, even on a phone, and I use it for reading articles in cafes, not so much for typing May 08 07:09:19 there is a gps? great!! May 08 07:09:27 * pyknite f*cking school's connection May 08 07:14:18 i cant say i care for the gps very much May 08 07:14:26 but the keyboard and somewhat smaller size might be worth it May 08 07:14:34 i would have bought it long ago if only it had gsm May 08 07:15:10 same... but i think is a little too big for a phone May 08 07:15:15 yeah May 08 07:15:21 doesn't exactly fit in your pocket May 08 07:15:34 Ya gotta figure with Nokia's volume they could have put gsm in for another 35 cents. May 08 07:15:37 small price to pay for freedom May 08 07:15:45 it's not that much bigger than my current p900 really May 08 07:15:48 oh you mean n800 ? May 08 07:15:52 heh May 08 07:15:54 rtm: that's why it's an internet tablet, not a phone :) May 08 07:16:13 yeah but why wimax and not umts May 08 07:16:17 if it had gsm I'd probably care less, not being able to afford canadian data rates May 08 07:16:24 buz: wimax isn't a gsm tech May 08 07:16:40 yeah exactly, which means you cant use it anywhere, really May 08 07:16:58 doc|home: if it had gsm, you could use it as phone May 08 07:17:06 swiss datarates are pretty outrageous too May 08 07:17:14 lol May 08 07:17:15 but still a lot cheaper than SMS May 08 07:17:19 australian ones are mucho crappo May 08 07:17:21 buz: It has voip and can do diamondcard call out (and call in if you pay for that) May 08 07:17:32 but with 3g getting cheaper... May 08 07:17:34 or skype May 08 07:17:42 yeah but without an uplink VoIP is useless May 08 07:17:57 some people are just never happy ;) May 08 07:18:13 i just think its dumb not to build an umts version May 08 07:18:18 it would sell like hotcakes May 08 07:18:36 otoh it might have prevented neo from ever being started May 08 07:18:54 nah, it's still has a lot of closed components, and getting more closed as time passes May 08 07:19:15 yes but only the very purists would care for that May 08 07:19:33 doc|home: In what way is it getting *more* closed? May 08 07:19:36 hell i have a notebook that runs entirely on OSS, but i would buy a gsm n810 in a heartbeat May 08 07:19:38 to be honest, if the freerunner had been released, I'd never have bought a n800 May 08 07:19:48 rtm: I can't remember off-hand, sorry :/ May 08 07:20:02 i think the omap datasheets are public May 08 07:20:18 the gsm speaks NMEA from what i know May 08 07:20:24 leaves the wifi, mostly May 08 07:20:36 buz: we're talking about the n8x0 May 08 07:20:39 yes May 08 07:20:41 buz: cannibalism May 08 07:20:43 runs on omap May 08 07:20:49 the n8x0 doesn't have gsm May 08 07:20:54 buz: by putting in gsm they'd cnnibalise sales of the n95 and other phones May 08 07:20:58 raster: yeah i know May 08 07:21:05 but still, could price it at n95 price point May 08 07:21:11 with the n8xx as it is they sell it as a phone ADD-ON May 08 07:21:13 whats the n95 like anyway? it run linux ? May 08 07:21:17 like add a big external screen to your phone May 08 07:21:28 Outlander: no - runs symbian May 08 07:21:31 sure, but how many people really buy a n95 to pair it with n8xx May 08 07:21:39 most will probably buy the lowest end umts phone May 08 07:21:41 buz: thery dont May 08 07:21:47 but they use their current phone May 08 07:21:52 or need to buy a phone - any phone May 08 07:22:05 someone in nokia's marketing department has their ass where the sun don't shine May 08 07:22:10 oh wair May 08 07:22:22 damnit May 08 07:22:22 if it did gsm then they would have people going "n95 OR n800.. which?" May 08 07:22:26 rahter than thinking of both May 08 07:22:49 i doubt the n95 buying crowd is very much overlapping with n8xx crowd May 08 07:23:09 it may not be n95 May 08 07:23:14 it may be n73 May 08 07:23:16 or any other phone May 08 07:23:21 as nokia has such a huge market share May 08 07:23:29 chances are that the phone someone will buy May 08 07:23:33 if a cheap faturephone May 08 07:23:40 or anything else is very likely a nokia May 08 07:23:40 yeah gimme a n820 with umts at the price of a n810 + n73 and i buy it. right now i dont buy anything :P May 08 07:23:59 well their marketing dept disagrees with you May 08 07:24:01 :) May 08 07:24:05 but u asked why May 08 07:24:06 :) May 08 07:24:07 buz: see, I'd never have bought that because it'd be waaaay too expensive. I have a phone thanks May 08 07:24:17 I don't need another one, especially one that *massive* May 08 07:24:24 their marketing dept is somewhat special anyhow. still no touchscreen phones in 2008 for chrissakes May 08 07:24:36 doc|home: yeah but i dont want to carry two devices May 08 07:24:48 how is it possible that heaps of companies havent copied apple's iphone by now May 08 07:24:55 they have May 08 07:24:57 freesmartphone.org: 03mickey * r6611abf3a787 10/mickeyterm/mickeyterm: python-helpers: add mickeyterm May 08 07:24:57 i mean their ipod got ripped off straight away didnt it? May 08 07:25:03 tried to anyway May 08 07:25:06 because iphone suck :D May 08 07:25:12 lg and samsung have iphone like devices May 08 07:25:12 buz: you're thinking about it wrong I think. I mean, I see it more as a laptop-type device only much smaller. May 08 07:25:34 doc|home: thats what nokia wants you to think May 08 07:25:44 i see it as the phone that could have been May 08 07:25:47 what's crap about iphone? the best part of it must just be the interface yeah? and i spose the software to use the interface May 08 07:25:48 the style of device is from the n770 remember. There was nothing like it in the phone market then. May 08 07:26:17 right, sleep time, night May 08 07:26:33 right now, htc is stealing alot of pda phone marketshare from nokia May 08 07:26:48 they basically have nothing to put against tytn'esque devices May 08 07:27:06 nokia are making a touch device May 08 07:27:14 which one May 08 07:27:59 they sold one once, but it was merely a rebranded benq uiq thingy May 08 07:29:19 freesmartphone.org: 03mickey * r85a0ec26f2c6 10/mickeyterm/mickeyterm: fix file format May 08 07:30:02 buz: i see a news the other days May 08 07:30:09 cant find it now May 08 07:30:40 or i was dreaming ;) May 08 07:41:12 http://www.engadgetmobile.com/2008/05/06/motorola-a1600-ming-2-garners-fcc-approval/ now this is interesting May 08 07:41:20 all the a1200 was missing was wifi May 08 08:25:23 openmoko: 03thomas * r4415 10/trunk/src/target/opkg/ (4 files in 3 dirs): opkg: add extra data to libopkg progress callbacks May 08 08:42:41 According to the judgment posted on PACER, an injunction was also ordered against TorrentSpy. Interestingly, Valence Media can retain possession of the site, however is barred from indexing copyrighted works in the future. May 08 08:43:03 so the judge has said that they can keep the domain name, but its now impossible to use May 08 08:43:15 even an index.html with one link would be illegal May 08 08:55:51 XorA: yo yo May 08 08:55:58 hey raster May 08 08:56:17 raster: big icons look much better in illume thanks May 08 08:56:29 u flipped to icon mode? May 08 08:56:48 raster: no, I rendered the qtopia icons much bigger May 08 08:56:54 or just used big solid pics to test? May 08 08:56:57 aaah May 08 08:57:05 no solid piccies yet May 08 08:57:16 some look ok, some are obviously just small bitmaps hidden in svg files May 08 08:57:26 hehehe May 08 08:57:37 btw May 08 08:57:47 Ill leave it to art dept to pick photos May 08 08:57:52 NOTE: package linux-openmoko-1_2.6.24+git20080508-r0: task do_configure: started May 08 08:57:52 ERROR: function do_configure failed May 08 08:57:52 ERROR: log data follows (/home/raster/moko2/build/tmp/work/om-gta02-angstrom-linux-gnueabi/linux-openmoko-1_2.6.24+git20080508-r0/temp/log.do_configure.31371) May 08 08:57:52 | cp: cannot stat `/home/raster/moko2/build/tmp/work/om-gta02-angstrom-linux-gnueabi/linux-openmoko-1_2.6.24+git20080508-r0/git/defconfig-gta02': No such file or directory May 08 08:57:53 NOTE: Task failed: /home/raster/moko2/build/tmp/work/om-gta02-angstrom-linux-gnueabi/linux-openmoko-1_2.6.24+git20080508-r0/temp/log.do_configure.31371 May 08 08:57:56 NOTE: package linux-openmoko-1_2.6.24+git20080508-r0: task do_configure: failed May 08 08:57:58 seen that? May 08 08:58:20 raster: touch conf/local.conf May 08 08:58:29 raster: you been hit by day changeover problem May 08 08:58:38 ooho poohbarbumpoo[ May 08 08:58:53 why me May 08 08:58:54 raster: because johncylee used SRCDATE, that changes everyday so directory name changes May 08 08:58:55 why hwy.... May 08 08:59:21 * raster waits for his mtn upate May 08 09:34:51 hi all May 08 09:46:07 * flexd yawns May 08 09:52:02 * * OM Bug 1384 has been created by t-lo(AT)entropiesenke.de May 08 09:52:03 * * QEmu usb gadget support broken for kernel =< 2.6.23 May 08 09:52:04 * * http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=1384 May 08 10:21:20 there will be a discount for gta01 owners for buyng freerunner? May 08 10:21:41 I don't think so. May 08 10:28:57 no May 08 10:29:28 they were pondering about that on gta01 release, but instead dropped its price directly May 08 10:30:30 everyone gets a discount! May 08 10:30:33 aren't we nice! May 08 10:30:34 :) May 08 10:31:23 yes, and/or you want to survive ;) May 08 10:33:04 * SpeedEvil cues Diana Ross - I will survive! on the OpenMoko careoke machine. May 08 10:36:39 * ScaredyCat dances May 08 10:47:14 "I Will Survive" was a Gloria Gaynor hit. May 08 10:52:10 Yes, but I had a special recording made. May 08 11:06:27 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xv6lHwWwO3w May 08 11:09:30 did packages/tasks/task-openmoko-qtopia-x11.bb get deleted then? May 08 11:30:33 Hello May 08 11:30:43 it is the first time I enter in this channel May 08 11:31:03 I want only to thanks all the person that are working in this project May 08 11:36:48 MicheleRenda: Are you planning on buying a Freerunner when they become available? May 08 11:37:07 openmoko: 03thomas * r4416 10/trunk/src/target/opkg/ (configure.ac libopkg/opkg.c libopkg/opkg.h): opkg: add more attributes to opkg_package_t May 08 11:37:43 Yes, how say someone else, I received the approbal by my financial administrator :) May 08 11:38:54 thomas: up^ May 08 12:23:30 <[AD]Turbo> hi there May 08 12:34:45 where can i get the complete information about GSM AT commands? May 08 12:38:41 kvk: 3gpp.org specs May 08 12:43:04 some of the commands are not giving output's? so, is there any procedure for execute the command's in priority order? May 08 13:02:12 http://cryptome.org/ti-calypso1.pdf & http://cryptome.org/ti-calypso2.pdf May 08 13:09:15 useless May 08 13:15:59 opkg has the same functionality as ipkg? May 08 13:20:02 as far as I'm aware yes ? May 08 13:20:27 if you google up opkg it has a good explination of why opkg has been selected over ipkg :) May 08 13:21:01 Kronk, thanks May 08 13:21:46 np's May 08 13:22:02 I though wikipedia had something on it but it only appears to have an entry for ipkg ? May 08 13:22:29 Kronk, just want to know how to uninstall a package with opkg May 08 13:22:32 One of the reasons was to take the i for ipaq out as far as I'm aware "legal stuff" May 08 13:22:45 thinks it's simular trying to get it going myself atm ;) May 08 13:22:47 lol May 08 13:23:30 http://www.dd-wrt.com/wiki/index.php/Ipkg May 08 13:23:32 try that :) May 08 13:23:59 Kronk, -h lists the options May 08 13:24:03 Kronk, thanks May 08 13:24:03 oops May 08 13:24:10 soz that's a ipkg guide ! My bad ! May 08 13:24:15 Opps May 08 13:33:35 freesmartphone.org: 03jluebbe * r8628e7a540f3 10/ousaged/modules/generic.py: Add resource policy API (disabled, auto, enabled) May 08 13:35:59 opkg install openssh, says, it conflicts with dropbear; if i uninstall dropbear, i will not be able to ssh into the system; so how can i install openssh? May 08 13:36:34 mbuf: openssh has a ssh daemon, you can use it May 08 13:36:44 what is wrong with dropbear that makes you feel the need to replace it with openssh? May 08 13:37:46 patoh, when i issue remote commands through ssh, it segment faults; i had this issue earlier, so previous builds i used to install openssh May 08 13:38:32 *when using ipkg; May 08 13:39:27 patoh, or i hit this 255 return status: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/USB_Networking#Connecting_to_phone May 08 13:39:36 filed a bug about it? May 08 13:40:07 patoh, nope; at that time rwhitby suggested to use openssh, so i continued to use openssh May 08 13:41:24 ok, just remember, removing dropbear to install openssh, may render remote connections, broken May 08 13:41:32 just make sure you start openssh May 08 13:42:02 patoh, ok May 08 13:42:44 patoh, i am trying -force-depends May 08 13:43:18 mbuf: use a script May 08 13:43:46 ScaredyCat, -force-depends has installed it; changed DROPBEAR_PORT to use 2222 May 08 13:45:02 the phone doesn't have a reboot option? have to shutdown and start it manually; april 24th image May 08 13:46:07 ssh in and reboot :P May 08 13:46:40 none of the images have a reboot option afaik May 08 13:46:47 ScaredyCat, ohh! May 08 13:47:03 you just push the power button :) May 08 13:50:46 in terminal, how can i get the "up" arrow? May 08 13:51:21 and the "|" symbol? May 08 13:53:46 what about ipkg-link? opkg-link doesn't exist May 08 13:57:21 how to get capital letters on the terminal on the device? May 08 13:58:39 hello,i followed this http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973_and_Windows#USB_Ethernet_emulation page to connect my neo1973,but failed,i can not get response of ping May 08 14:00:21 never mind, just had to use "^ *" to get capital letters May 08 14:01:03 * * OM Bug 1385 has been created by fr-om(AT)tourde.org May 08 14:01:04 * * ge librsvg_2.16.1.bb won't build on x86 platform May 08 14:01:05 u happy your ip forwarding is setup ok winux_ ? May 08 14:01:05 * * http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=1385 May 08 14:01:37 on your Windows ? XP is it ? May 08 14:01:42 yes May 08 14:01:44 kronk May 08 14:02:10 so you ok with Ip forwarding in XP that's all running fine you think ? May 08 14:02:37 ICS setup ? May 08 14:04:02 * * OM Bug 1386 has been created by fr-om(AT)tourde.org May 08 14:04:03 * * ge u-boot-openmoko_1.3.1+git+svn.bb won't build May 08 14:04:04 * * http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=1386 May 08 14:05:39 * Kronk breaths a sigh of relief post u-boot update ;) May 08 14:35:33 so, FreeRunner MP is supposed to start tomorrow... May 08 14:37:11 well, wasn't the 9th a guess May 08 14:37:21 hi,how to disable the hibernate of neo1973 ? May 08 14:37:52 ScaredyCat: "The last Pre MP is done and mass production is slated to start on may 9." as of the 4th, from Steve May 08 14:37:53 press the power button and select the 'do not lock' option from pwoer management May 08 14:38:05 'dim but don't lock ' or similar May 08 14:38:30 summatusmentis: right, but it's not a concrete date... May 08 14:38:42 that's when expected, unless issues arrise.. May 08 14:38:52 starting MP on a Friday? May 08 14:38:55 doesn't slated to start mean that that's the plan? May 08 14:39:30 simm: 9-16 May 08 14:40:02 it's a schedule... May 08 14:40:19 alright, fair enough May 08 14:40:41 I don;t want one that was built on a Friday ;) May 08 14:40:53 lol May 08 14:41:01 friday the 13th? May 08 14:41:08 hehehe May 08 14:41:26 The factory is over an ancient indian graveyard. May 08 14:48:10 * Kronk does the sleep thing May 08 14:48:11 cya May 08 14:54:52 where can I find the mailing lists in a forum like thread? :P May 08 14:57:18 spydon: try google groups May 08 15:05:07 spyre: or subscribe, and get them in your faviourite threaded email reader. May 08 15:14:03 but there was a good link with them on the wiki before May 08 15:17:38 openmoko: 03zecke * r40f674b0fa72 10/src/server/phone/smsstatusdbusexporter.cpp: [sms/dbus] Make the SMS ids strings as well. For loading a sms we have already used string identifiers May 08 15:17:38 openmoko: 03zecke * r341e1f0813d2 10/devices/ficgta01/configure: We are a product, do not built the launcher with the samples... May 08 15:27:21 http://oe.linuxtogo.org/wiki/BuildOnOSX May 08 15:27:29 wrong place sroy May 08 15:42:59 hmm. am i going to have to buy a new jtag kit for the frerunner, or is the neo1973 debug board (v2) compatible? May 08 15:49:19 juri_: compatible, with some minor limitations May 08 16:08:18 so, if i brick a frerunner, i can de-brick it with my 1973 board? May 08 16:08:43 In principle - you can't brick it. May 08 16:08:53 You can always recover with the onboard emergency flash. May 08 16:09:02 Which you can't change without the debug board. May 08 16:09:06 i've already had to de-brick my 1973 once. :) May 08 16:09:10 However, I don't know if that's implemented yet. May 08 16:09:46 There is emergency flash? Is it read-only? May 08 16:09:50 yea May 08 16:09:54 without the debug board. May 08 16:10:21 You can only write it with the debug board. (well - or a resistor/jumper, but not via software) May 08 16:10:43 Ah, good. May 08 16:12:17 So basically, the debug board's value to most is just to expose the serial console... May 08 16:13:45 Severalfold. May 08 16:14:01 So you can't truly brick the freerunner without a debugboard? And then you could just debrick it. May 08 16:14:05 I don't know if the emergency flash is actually in a working enough state. May 08 16:14:27 You might want a deub board to get it into a state where it functions as intended. May 08 16:14:34 You might want one for JTAG debugging. May 08 16:15:15 You might want one for hacking on the emergency flash loader - for example to do rapid resume processing. May 08 16:16:19 resume from CPU 'off' that is. May 08 16:16:59 does anyone whos alive know how to make my neo1973 ring? :) May 08 16:17:21 juri_: sorry - I haven't looked at that. May 08 16:17:27 its hard to keep my phone in my pocket (so i'll notice the vibrate) and have it constantly on USB life support. May 08 16:21:44 how long batterylife does the freerunner has? May 08 16:24:16 Speaking hypothetically - it should be better than a week, and 3 hours or so of talk-time. Maybe 5h active doing stuff. However, I don't know if the software will be adequate at initial availability to do this. May 08 16:24:49 woo threeh ours May 08 16:24:53 much better than the 20 minutes I get now May 08 16:25:09 SpeedEvil: ok. but hardware wise it will hold for a week when the power saving is correctly implemented? May 08 16:25:16 I had no idea my battery had degraded so much until someone else tried to call someone with my phone :-X May 08 16:25:34 chatting over gprs doesn't keep the radio on much I guess May 08 16:31:06 faern: as I understand - and assuming that nothing is worse in freerunner than GTA01 - yes. May 08 16:31:18 faern: I do not have a freerunner. May 08 16:32:37 ok. thank you. But with gps and faster cpu and everything shouldnt it have shorter battery life? or is the battery upgraded/improved powersaving? May 08 16:32:59 GTA01 has GPS too. May 08 16:33:07 faern: those other components will be turned off when unneeded i would imagine. May 08 16:33:18 aah. ok, didnt know that. good May 08 16:33:20 With everything on, it's going to have maybe a wash battery-life. May 08 16:33:35 But everything should rarely be on. May 08 16:34:57 hehe, you know what's funny, my first pc was 400mhz and 64mb ram. this phone is going to be more powerful than that pc. :| May 08 16:35:20 faern: the freerunner has a larger battery May 08 16:35:29 i wonder if someone will port quake2 to it. :D May 08 16:35:36 is there any good gps map software bundled or compatible to install? May 08 16:35:41 unknown_lamer: nice May 08 16:35:46 faern: no May 08 16:35:48 damn 7M/s graphics bus limit makes quake2 unfeasible at a sane frame rate May 08 16:35:51 faern: google tangogps May 08 16:36:09 especially since the opengl ES stuff will probably never be supported May 08 16:36:34 I'm really hoping lbreakout2 uses bitblitting for the tiles ... May 08 16:37:07 'tho by the time I get a freerunner I might actually remember enough geometry to make it do so if it doesn't (hacking on CLIM gives me super graphics powers or something) May 08 16:38:00 In practice, QVGA mode should be just fine for action games IMO. May 08 16:38:08 That's still 140DPI May 08 16:38:36 And that gives you 20+fps probably May 08 16:39:55 how does the display look in qvga mode? May 08 16:40:11 faern: it will _not_ be - if released at the end of this month - a polished phone exploiting the hardware properly. May 08 16:40:26 unknown_lamer: like it does at VGA, just half hte resolution. May 08 16:40:42 Ah so it isn't blocky or distorted? May 08 16:40:50 no. May 08 16:41:07 I guess at that display density using four hardware pixels per software pixel isn't noticable yay May 08 16:42:28 have there been any changes in SVN within the last three days that are "worth" updating to? May 08 17:28:18 Why is the freerunner only equiped with usb 1.1? cant really be too expensive with 2.0. Is it a space issue? May 08 17:28:32 it's not. May 08 17:28:46 It's a 'CPUs with USB2 are really expensive' issue. May 08 17:29:32 ok :/ too bad May 08 17:32:47 according to the flier the s3c2442 has USB Deice :-) May 08 17:32:53 spelling from sheet :-) May 08 17:33:05 USB Deicer.. planes could use those. May 08 17:33:12 javascript:fileAction('/global/system/business/semiconductor/product/2007/7/7/046670sc32442_msp.pdf') May 08 17:33:22 ~lart javascript May 08 17:33:22 * apt executes killall -HUP javascript May 08 17:33:46 fileAction? May 08 17:33:47 wtf May 08 17:48:05 samsung completely messed up their site May 08 17:48:10 it used to be fine with html May 08 17:48:16 now its this absolute mess of active content May 08 17:51:13 anrp: and they won't send any interesting datasheets without vetting you. May 08 17:51:28 They seem to at least want a electronics company website/email. May 08 17:54:41 One guy to hold the laser-level, and project horizontal lines, the other to walk along the line. May 08 17:54:43 iios May 08 17:54:48 oops May 08 18:40:05 does anyone here use his FIC GTA01 as a regular smartphone? May 08 18:40:25 hm May 08 18:40:29 it wasnt nice May 08 18:40:35 without real power mangement May 08 18:40:41 yeah.... May 08 18:40:51 i bought it over internet before a week May 08 18:40:56 thats why I now uses greenphone May 08 18:40:58 and i am a bit frustrated May 08 18:41:06 uh May 08 18:41:22 hm you should have wait for the freerunner May 08 18:41:41 yes... and freerunner will have complete software? May 08 18:41:49 or it will be the same as Neo? May 08 18:43:30 its work in progress May 08 18:43:38 but hardware is better May 08 18:43:41 you have wifi May 08 18:44:21 yes, wifi rulez May 08 18:45:59 The Neo would be much better with better software; in many ways theres not much difference between the two devices (from the users POV) May 08 18:46:32 Or, to put it conversely, the Freerunner will not be much better than the Neo, from the users POV, until the software is vastly improved! May 08 18:46:34 "regular smartphone" is really a subjective concept too. May 08 18:46:45 Is there a specific area you're interested in? May 08 18:51:24 mwester: yep May 08 18:53:50 mwester: I did some more testing with your suspend/resume kernel. It mostly works, but one time there was no ringer sound (only vibration) on an incoming call. Audio on the call itself worked OK. May 08 18:54:14 However, my battery still died after less than 24 hours even though it spent almost all of that time suspended. May 08 19:05:22 mmontour: I've observed the battery problem as well; I suspect we need to do something inside gsmd to make the GSM enter a power-saving state. May 08 19:06:11 mmontour: There seems to be some issues with audio remaining (also, I seem to have some display issues very infrequently when resuming). So work shall continue, I guess :) May 08 19:29:45 The linux-openmoko do_fetch() is failing again - fatal: failed to unpack tree object 966a29020932751ba6a1a137b0e1e25ac0708be7. Is the Openmoko server running out of disk space again? May 08 19:33:28 well, I was wondering why the guy with the Ubuntu laptop was so happy when he sold Neo to me ... :))) May 08 19:37:35 freesmartphone.org: 03mickey * r7b91951addfd 10/mickeyterm/mickeyterm: May 08 19:37:35 freesmartphone.org: mickeyterm: sync. with upstream. if in char-by-char-mode, properly restore terminal on quit. May 08 19:37:35 freesmartphone.org: (don't use that, readline mode with command line completion is sooooooo much cooler... :) May 08 20:10:18 which rootfs and kernel would you recommend me to flash in? May 08 20:12:28 sigshot: Latest kernel and latest Openmoko rootfs from buildhost.automated.it May 08 20:14:03 abraxa_: thanks May 08 20:14:13 abraxa_, Why do you recomment ScaredyCat's images over others, just asking. :) May 08 20:14:59 kdean06: Do you want to hear the X-rated or PG13 version? May 08 20:15:53 X-rated indicates the presence of hardcore sex. I'm not sure I wanna know if that's the case... May 08 20:16:04 X-rated... May 08 20:16:08 Though, I'd like the honest reasons, even if it's "rude". May 08 20:16:24 Honestly I just recommend them because I know he puts effort into making them work May 08 20:16:40 (and it's the URL that sticks to my brain the easiest) May 08 20:16:43 Rated G by the MPAA May 08 20:16:56 yeah but Neo has great audio playback quality May 08 20:17:02 great speakers May 08 20:17:41 sigshot, Audio playback sounds much better IMO on Qtopia. And the fact that plugging in the headphones doesn't silence those speakers is a CRITICAL issue IMO. May 08 20:17:49 * mwester would suggest that one choose the most recent kernel from http://moko.mwester.net/ and the rootfs image from ScaredyCat. May 08 20:17:54 mwester, By the way... Is that hardware or software? May 08 20:18:00 what sound device does the neo have? May 08 20:18:05 yeah, I've just deleted qtopia :))) May 08 20:18:14 The headset plugging issues, i mean. May 08 20:18:15 mwester: Oh, I wasn't aware you had updated kernels. Do they include any patches? May 08 20:18:23 The headset? software I think.. May 08 20:18:23 mwester: you get an openmoko May 08 20:18:41 I know my laptop had that same issue with 2.6.23ish May 08 20:18:48 It does the same thing on Qtopia and Openmoko, so I was afeared it was hardware. May 08 20:18:52 abraxa_: Yes, experimental patches that make suspend/resume much closer to working (although not quite working yet) May 08 20:19:20 mwester: Good job :) May 08 20:19:30 kdean06: Perhaps I'm wrong, then -- roh has schematics, perhaps he's about? May 08 20:20:45 roh must be asleep, but when he returns I think he knows how the jack is wired. May 08 20:24:54 well, i am flashink mwester's kernel May 08 20:25:04 and sacredy cat's rootfs May 08 20:26:13 oh *scaredy May 08 20:28:56 openmoko: 03andrew * r4417 10/trunk/src/host/qemu-neo1973/usb-linux-gadget.c: Teach qemu the post 2.6.22 #include paths for usb gadgetfs (Thilo Fromm). May 08 20:45:02 * ScaredyCat points at the 2 new scripts May 08 20:45:15 for all those that don;t want to stare up my nose.... May 08 20:45:28 there's a wallpaper changer May 08 20:45:49 and some alternate wallpapers May 08 20:47:59 ScaredyCat: Thanks, sexy May 08 20:48:01 ;) May 08 20:48:51 I'm glad of that comma abraxa_ ;) May 08 20:49:08 lol May 08 20:51:12 :D excellent May 08 20:51:28 (no offense to your nose, of course) May 08 20:56:25 :) May 08 21:01:47 mickey|sofa, Hey, if I have a Neo and lost my batteries, what's the best thing to do? May 08 21:02:15 I read that BL-5C Nokia batteries don't charge in the Neo, which sucks. May 08 21:09:39 paulproteus: one possibility would be an external blc-4 charger May 08 21:09:43 bl5c May 08 23:05:08 freesmartphone.org: 03mickey * r3713386a6fa9 10/mickeyterm/mickeyterm: mickeyterm: add logging May 08 23:18:29 SpeedEvil, Yeah, but that means when the battery dies I have to power-down the Neo. )-: May 08 23:36:01 well, the latest ScaredyCats rootfs wasnt even able to receive calls ... :-((( May 08 23:37:23 can anybody help me making qemu? May 08 23:37:33 I get an error when making it May 08 23:38:38 #make -C arm-softmmu all May 08 23:38:42 make[1]: Entering directory `/home/bastian/qemu-neo1973/arm-softmmu' May 08 23:38:54 gcc -Wall -O2 -g -fno-strict-aliasing -fno-reorder-blocks -fno-gcse -fno-tree-ch -fno-optimize-sibling-calls May 08 23:38:58 -fno-crossjumping -fno-align-labels -fno-align-jumps -fno-align-functions -fno-section-anchors -mpreferred- May 08 23:39:02 tack-boundary=2 -fomit-frame-pointer -I. -I.. -I/home/bastian/qemu-neo1973/target-arm -I/home/bastian/qemu-neo May 08 23:39:06 973 -MMD -MP -DNEED_CPU_H -D_GNU_SOURCE -D_FILE_OFFSET_BITS=64 -D_LARGEFILE_SOURCE -I/home/bastian/qemu-neo1973/ May 08 23:39:10 pu -DHAS_AUDIO -I/home/bastian/qemu-neo1973/gnokiigsm -I/home/bastian/qemu-neo1973/slirp -c -o op.o /home/bastia May 08 23:39:14 /qemu-neo1973/target-arm/op.c May 08 23:39:18 /home/bastian/qemu-neo1973/target-arm/op_iwmmxt.c: In function ‘op_iwmmxt_movq_wRn_M0’: May 08 23:39:22 /home/bastian/qemu-neo1973/target-arm/op_iwmmxt.c:176: error: unable to find a register to spill in class ‘GENER May 08 23:39:26 L_REGS’ May 08 23:39:30 /home/bastian/qemu-neo1973/target-arm/op_iwmmxt.c:176: error: this is the insn: May 08 23:39:34 (insn:HI 10 21 11 2 /home/bastian/qemu-neo1973/target-arm/op_iwmmxt.c:175 (set (mem/s/j:DI (plus:SI (plus:SI (mu May 08 23:39:38 t:SI (reg/f:SI 58 [ __op_param1.1778 ]) May 08 23:39:42 (const_int 8 [0x8])) May 08 23:39:46 (reg/f:SI 59 [ env.1777 ])) May 08 23:39:58 (const_int 1204 [0x4b4])) [0 .iwmmxt.regs S8 A32]) May 08 23:40:02 (reg:DI 60 [ .iwmmxt.val ])) 56 {*movdi_2} (insn_list:REG_DEP_TRUE 8 (insn_list:REG_DEP_TRUE 9 May 08 23:40:06 (nil))) May 08 23:40:10 (expr_list:REG_DEAD (reg:DI 60 [ .iwmmxt.val ]) May 08 23:40:14 (expr_list:REG_DEAD (reg/f:SI 58 [ __op_param1.1778 ]) May 08 23:40:18 (expr_list:REG_DEAD (reg/f:SI 59 [ env.1777 ]) May 08 23:40:22 (nil))))) May 08 23:40:23 /home/bastian/qemu-neo1973/target-arm/op_iwmmxt.c:176: confused by earlier errors, bailing out May 08 23:40:23 make[1]: *** [op.o] Fehler 1 May 08 23:40:23 make[1]: Leaving directory `/home/bastian/qemu-neo1973/arm-softmmu' May 08 23:40:23 make: *** [subdir-arm-softmmu] Fehler 2 May 08 23:40:23 sorry for spamming the channel, but can anybode help me with that? May 08 23:47:06 bastian: what distro is that? May 08 23:51:14 openSuSE 10.3 May 08 23:51:51 i'm just trying to install gcc 3.3 May 08 23:52:21 any idea? May 08 23:53:13 bastian: not sure, seems like you have more flags set than i May 08 23:53:31 did you change CFLAGS? May 08 23:53:41 no May 08 23:53:51 maybe suse adds some by default May 08 23:53:58 where should i do? May 08 23:54:09 i have these -Wall -O2 -g -fno-strict-aliasing -fno-reorder-blocks -fno-gcse -fno-optimize-sibling-calls -fno-crossjumping -fno-align-labels -fno-align-jumps -fno-align-functions May 08 23:54:18 but i used gcc3.4 May 08 23:54:35 i have 4.2 i think May 08 23:54:43 now trying to install 3.3 May 08 23:54:59 ah, but you're probably on a 32-bit host May 08 23:55:05 i'd try 3.4 May 08 23:55:54 k, then i have to search again :) May 08 23:56:54 hmm, there is no 3.4 at rpmseek.com May 08 23:57:40 i try a feodora rpm May 08 23:58:12 3.3.6 works for me but on a 64-bit OS May 08 23:59:04 this is 32 bit (Core2Duo is 32 bit i think) May 08 23:59:14 so i installed 32 May 09 00:01:59 shit, the binary is missing in this package May 09 00:03:32 c2d is 64b afaik May 09 00:03:48 shure? May 09 00:03:48 yes May 09 00:04:07 k, then next time i install a 64bit ystem May 09 00:04:52 but unless you have more than 3-4GB RAM, 64b os isnt meaningful May 09 00:05:21 no, just 2 May 09 00:05:27 zash: why? May 09 00:05:36 * balrog-kun has 2GB and loves the 64-bit system May 09 00:05:39 and this laptop cant take more May 09 00:05:58 is less meaningful, rather May 09 00:06:00 bastian: you can just build gcc from source. You may already have a gcc-3.4 tarball in your OM 'sources' download directory. You can use something like "--program-suffix=3.4" to prevent it from conflicting with other versions May 09 00:06:33 there's so much more optimisation gcc can do on x86_64 May 09 00:06:35 thx, i try May 09 00:07:13 bastian: and then pass "-cc=/path/to/gcc-3.4" to the qemu ./configure May 09 00:10:15 how can i find out wheter i have such a tarball in the OM directory? May 09 00:10:33 i cant find anything that looks like gcc May 09 00:11:37 mmontour@tuxbox:~/moko> ls sources/gcc-3.4* May 09 00:11:42 sources/gcc-3.4.4.tar.bz2 sources/gcc-3.4.4.tar.bz2.md5 May 09 00:13:00 i dont have a folder called sources May 09 00:14:34 bastian: Are you using MokoMakefile? May 09 00:14:53 no, i use the ahowto at, ... (1 moment) May 09 00:15:34 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/OpenMoko_under_QEMU May 09 00:15:57 section manual setup May 09 00:17:26 is the way with the makefile more easy? May 09 00:17:52 or does it has less problems with gcc 4.2? May 09 00:18:19 balrog-kun: for someone doing mosty webdev-stuff, how is 64b better than 32b? May 09 00:20:57 balrog-kun, What more optimization can gcc do under 64bit? May 09 00:22:15 zash: for someone doing webdev stuff perhaps it's only the speed-up May 09 00:22:48 Sonicadvance: it has like 30 registers (don't know exactly) to put temporary values in instead of about 5 registers May 09 00:23:33 yeah, x86_64 has a somewhat modern register set, instead of the 1970's set that x86_32 has May 09 00:24:05 But you would need to know ASM really to take advantage of the registers anyway =o May 09 00:24:25 for someone that knows just C/C++, wouldn't be much of an advantage May 09 00:24:52 bastian: for your immediate problem it's probably better to just download a gcc-3.4 tarball from somewhere. However, in general MokoMakefile is easier than doing things by hand. May 09 00:24:58 Sonicadvance: no, gcc chooses the registers for you May 09 00:24:59 no, the compiler can make use of the extra registers -> better compiled code May 09 00:25:08 I see May 09 00:25:15 Oh well, I'm using 64bit anyway :P May 09 00:25:19 os[ryan@yesm, Linux 2.6.24-17-rt x86_64] May 09 00:26:00 Sonicadvance: when there are more temporaries, it stores them in memory and on every access has to read the value into the register before it, and store it again after that May 09 00:26:12 of course May 09 00:26:23 disadvantage is, wider ints and pointers can increase the amount of memory you use, and memory bandwidth is often the bottleneck in modern systems May 09 00:26:32 * zash bought the cheapest and crappiest vista capable laptop that could be found withouth preinstalled os May 09 00:26:39 Sonicadvance: and when there are not enough to load all the arguments for a given operation into registers, you get the error that bastian paster May 09 00:26:42 pasted May 09 00:26:48 vista capable + ubuntu = win May 09 00:27:38 ah May 09 00:27:57 Thank you for showing me the light ;) May 09 00:28:48 wiml, yeah, but in practice it seems that x86_64 advantages outweigh those disads for "most" loads May 09 00:29:18 now, on something sane to start with, say sparc, you would expect 64-bit code to be a tad slower than 32- May 09 00:29:59 Also, since the Freerunner has a fully powered USB hub, that means you could plug...say... a gamepad in to it and it would work :D May 09 01:26:26 thx, mmontour May 09 01:26:33 it seems to have worked **** ENDING LOGGING AT Fri May 09 02:59:56 2008