**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Fri May 16 02:59:57 2008
May 16 04:07:22 <linuxxr> any  idea the total people in the "groups" buying plan?
May 16 04:07:56 <holycow> hello moko!
May 16 04:43:10 <ewon> int
May 16 04:43:11 <ewon> shit
May 16 04:43:31 <Sonicadvance1> long
May 16 04:44:09 <holycow> hehehe
May 16 04:46:25 * mwester wonders if ewon needs to select better names for his integer variables...
May 16 04:49:56 <Daemonax> Well what's the state on production? Started?
May 16 05:18:26 <Sonicadvance> No one knows
May 16 06:14:10 <geogriffin> hey, can someone help me get openmoko compiled on fedora?
May 16 06:16:40 <geogriffin> it would make me consider buying the phone :)
May 16 06:34:40 <geogriffin> i am having a problem building gmp-native
May 16 07:00:57 <methril> morning
May 16 07:10:21 <CIA-43> freesmartphone.org: 03vesa.pikki * r6b8841e37800 10/ (14 files in 3 dirs): 
May 16 07:10:21 <CIA-43> freesmartphone.org: Fixed release methods parameter's in ui.py
May 16 07:10:21 <CIA-43> freesmartphone.org: Fixed a bug related to activating a call with incorrect id.
May 16 07:10:21 <CIA-43> freesmartphone.org: Initial version of wavecom's vendor plugin
May 16 07:10:22 <CIA-43> freesmartphone.org: 03vesa.pikki * r9ad6c5886532 10/src/network.c: Merge branch 'master' of git@git.freesmartphone.org:gsmd2
May 16 07:10:35 <Hopscotch> good morning
May 16 08:01:06 <CIA-43> openmoko: 03zecke * r4e4df81592f9 10/src/server/phone/ (smsstatusdbusexporter.cpp smsstatusdbusexporter.h): [sms] Add removing of messages for Chia-I Wu (olv)
May 16 08:01:06 <CIA-43> openmoko: 03zecke * rcc34f70a6226 10/src/libraries/qtopia/qtopiaapplication.cpp: [im] Implement the matchbox command to show and hide the keyboard
May 16 08:53:13 <ScaredyCat> mmmmm
May 16 08:54:32 <CIA-43> openmoko: 03rwhitby * r19 10mokomakefile/trunk/Makefile: Allow selection of the monotone branch to build (e.g. org.openmoko.april-update)
May 16 08:55:31 <CVirus> mass production started .. right ?
May 16 08:58:07 <ScaredyCat> dunno
May 16 08:58:23 * ScaredyCat wonders why there's no audio
May 16 09:00:03 * CVirus wonders why there's no community update
May 16 09:05:18 <ScaredyCat> how does gstreamer get started ?
May 16 09:06:00 * polz wonders whether the bugs in the communication between the UART and GSM have been pinpointed
May 16 09:30:14 <wibbit> wiiieeeeeeeee mass production
May 16 09:30:16 <wibbit> woot woot
May 16 09:41:18 <CVirus> wibbit: how did you know ?
May 16 09:41:34 <CVirus> no announcements yet
May 16 09:43:36 <wibbit> Call me positive :)
May 16 09:43:48 <nepumuck> mass production of the phone?
May 16 09:48:05 <CVirus> yes
May 16 09:48:36 <CVirus> I can't wait for steve's announcement
May 16 09:50:35 <geogriffin> hey, can anyone help me build openmoko with the mokomakefile? it is failing at gmp-native
May 16 09:52:25 <XorA> fedora core 9?
May 16 09:52:30 <geogriffin> yes yes
May 16 09:52:34 <geogriffin> heh
May 16 09:52:36 <XorA> dont use fedora core 9
May 16 09:52:42 <geogriffin> thats a good answer
May 16 09:52:58 <XorA> gcc 4.3.0 doesnt like gmp sources
May 16 09:53:09 <XorA> you'll have to figure out a patch
May 16 09:53:17 <XorA> OM people tend not to use fedore core
May 16 09:53:26 <ScaredyCat> XorA: !
May 16 09:53:28 <ScaredyCat> biathc
May 16 09:53:30 <ScaredyCat> dsf
May 16 09:53:38 <ScaredyCat> can you ssh into your phine
May 16 09:53:40 <ScaredyCat> phone
May 16 09:53:45 <XorA> yes
May 16 09:53:55 <geogriffin> should i just run debian or something in xen
May 16 09:54:17 <ScaredyCat> then do /etc/init.d/avahi-daemon restart
May 16 09:54:25 <geogriffin> what distro would you recommend?
May 16 09:54:30 <ScaredyCat> suse 10.3
May 16 09:54:30 <XorA> debian lenny or ubuntu are the best at the moment
May 16 09:54:35 <ScaredyCat> pft
May 16 09:54:43 <geogriffin> latest releases?
May 16 09:55:46 <XorA> I use debian lenny
May 16 09:55:51 <geogriffin> ok
May 16 09:55:54 <XorA> ubuntu gutsy or hardy are said to work as well
May 16 09:55:56 <geogriffin> thanks man
May 16 09:56:47 <geogriffin> i am considering buying the phone when it is released, but i want to test out some stuff first
May 16 09:57:10 <geogriffin> how stable will the software be on release?
May 16 09:57:10 * ScaredyCat stabs wildly with a sharp knife after seeing raster's message
May 16 09:57:20 <ScaredyCat> not geogriffin
May 16 09:57:29 <ScaredyCat> well, actually...
May 16 09:57:32 <ScaredyCat> that depends...
May 16 09:57:44 <ScaredyCat> if the hardware is out in 2008 or not ;)
May 16 09:57:56 <geogriffin> heh
May 16 09:58:37 <geogriffin> well i mean i have another phone i could use if this isn't stable at first, but i get the impression it will get a lot better over time
May 16 10:02:33 <ScaredyCat> it's useable now.
May 16 10:02:46 <ScaredyCat> just that battery life (pwoermanagement) needs work...
May 16 10:03:33 <BDo> If I can get a hand on it, I'm willing to contribute ! :-)
May 16 10:04:01 <geogriffin> ok. and the jack is a 2.5mm? guess i will have to carry an adapter :/
May 16 10:04:06 * nigel_c wants to make it hibernate :)
May 16 10:04:47 <XorA> it goes into suspend fine :-D
May 16 10:04:54 <nigel_c> Of course that doesn't help if you actually want to use it though :)
May 16 10:05:34 <nigel_c> Yeah, but I mean hibernate for faster startup and state persistance.
May 16 10:05:57 <ScaredyCat> XorA: did you try that command for me ?
May 16 10:06:33 <XorA>  * Restarting Avahi mDNS/DNS-SD Daemon: avahi-daemon
May 16 10:06:34 <XorA> [ ok ]
May 16 10:07:52 * ScaredyCat grrs
May 16 10:08:08 <ScaredyCat> # /etc/init.d/avahi-daemon restart
May 16 10:08:08 <ScaredyCat>  * Restarting Avahi mDNS/DNS-SD Daemon: avahi-daemon
May 16 10:08:08 <ScaredyCat> /usr/sbin/avahi-daemon: error while loading shared libraries: libssp.so.0: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory
May 16 10:08:08 <ScaredyCat> /usr/sbin/avahi-daemon: error while loading shared libraries: libssp.so.0: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory
May 16 10:08:09 <ScaredyCat> /usr/sbin/avahi-daemon: error while loading shared libraries: libssp.so.0: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory
May 16 10:08:12 <ScaredyCat>  *[fail]
May 16 10:08:18 <ScaredyCat> see... libssfuckingp
May 16 10:08:47 <XorA> for some reason your gcc built libssp even though --disable-libssp is passed to it
May 16 10:09:10 <ScaredyCat> this is from a clean build...
May 16 10:09:15 <XorA> check the log.do_configure for gcc-cross to make sure disable-libssp actually got sent to configure
May 16 10:09:18 <ScaredyCat> with sane-srcrecs
May 16 10:09:20 <ScaredyCat> revs
May 16 10:10:59 <ScaredyCat> its on the configure line
May 16 10:11:28 <XorA> I wonder why gcc ignores this and builds it anyway
May 16 10:11:53 <XorA> ScaredyCat: time for you to get down and dirty withy autoconf I think
May 16 10:12:17 <ScaredyCat> I'd rather know why it works on yours and not mine...
May 16 10:12:28 <ScaredyCat> they should both do the same thing
May 16 10:12:51 <ScaredyCat> I don;t know of anyone else that's done a full rebuild recently
May 16 10:24:56 <spyre> mickeyl: Hi, did you have a chance to look at my fso.sms email?
May 16 10:27:51 <mickeyl> spyre: yes, sorry for not getting back yet. i'm just finishing implementing the SMS part of org.freesmartphone.GSM.SIM, then I have the necessary experience to comment on your message
May 16 10:28:12 <mickeyl> so i guess i can answer tomorrow or sunday
May 16 10:28:16 <mickeyl> time flies *sigh*
May 16 10:29:24 <spyre> mickeyl: np, now I have the chance to send a followup email ;)
May 16 10:29:36 <spyre> it sure does, not enough hours in a day
May 16 10:29:44 <mickeyl> right
May 16 10:35:14 <ScaredyCat> mickeyl: any idea why gcc would use libssp even with --disable-libssp ?
May 16 10:38:28 <mickeyl> no idea offhand
May 16 10:38:41 <mickeyl> need to ask the toolchain experts over at #oe
May 16 10:39:36 <ScaredyCat> anyone in particular I should look for ?
May 16 10:39:56 <mickeyl> hmm, hard to say. RP, Stelios, zecke, koen. Best write an email to oe-devel
May 16 10:46:03 <SpeedEvil> ScaredyCat: familiar with build problems with gdb?
May 16 10:46:25 <ScaredyCat> not seen any... 
May 16 10:46:31 <ScaredyCat> you have some?
May 16 10:47:05 <SpeedEvil> I do...
May 16 10:47:22 * SpeedEvil extracts log.
May 16 10:49:34 <spyre> mickeyl: btw you said SIM, isn't fso.SMS still goingto be used (even though if received messages would be stored elsewhere)?
May 16 10:49:42 <SpeedEvil> sca http://pastebin.com/m38467b2d
May 16 10:50:45 <CIA-43> freesmartphone.org: 03mickey * rd14b626fccb9 10/ophoned/ (gsm/const.py gsm/mediator.py objects.py): python-ophoned: org.freesmartphone.GSM.SIM.{Get,Set}ServiceCenterNumber() done.
May 16 10:51:31 * SpeedEvil tries make update
May 16 10:51:54 <mickeyl> Well, SIM is going to contain functions to read and store an SMS on/from the SIM
May 16 10:52:14 <mickeyl> SMS is the 'real thing'
May 16 10:52:42 <spyre> mickeyl: ok, just making sure :)
May 16 11:01:15 <winux> i install bitbake by runing "./setup.py install" ,but how can i remove it ?
May 16 11:07:52 <apollo13> winux: you can't; just remove the installed files
May 16 11:08:39 <winux> apollo13,where can i find the files i installed?
May 16 11:09:15 <apollo13> winux: most likely under /usr/lib/python2.x/site-packages/....
May 16 11:09:23 <apollo13> or just use find ;)
May 16 11:09:43 <winux> thank you
May 16 11:10:03 <SorenHK> Hmm I'm trying to build the openmoko-sample2 as described on: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Toolchain but I'm getting an error (configure: error: C compiler cannot create executables) when running the command: om-conf openmoko-sample2 . I've pasted the error message from the console and some of the stuff from config.log here: http://pastebin.com/m4d6d3fb . I've installed all the prerequisites as described on the wiki.. I'm running
May 16 11:10:03 <SorenHK>  Ubuntu 8.04. Can anyone help? :)
May 16 11:16:56 <wibbit> ScaredyCat: which message from raster?
May 16 11:17:14 <ScaredyCat> re: the keybard
May 16 11:17:18 <ScaredyCat> keyboard
May 16 11:17:25 <ScaredyCat> on dev list
May 16 11:19:19 <wibbit> openmoko or opkg?
May 16 11:20:05 <wibbit> no manual control of the keyboard popup?!?
May 16 11:21:33 <wibbit> ScaredyCat: You bring the rail way line, I'll bring the rope
May 16 11:23:39 <raster> ScaredyCat:  dont stab me. i didnt make the decision.. i was told to remove it by the almighty powers that are our ui design department
May 16 11:23:48 <SpeedEvil> ...
May 16 11:23:52 <raster> and i was wuoted some ui dsign book as to why
May 16 11:23:55 <ScaredyCat> I wasn't stabbing you
May 16 11:23:57 <ScaredyCat> ...
May 16 11:24:19 <raster> u have no idea the shit i stirred arguing against the removal
May 16 11:24:23 <raster> i give up
May 16 11:24:43 <raster> i just dont fight anymore.
May 16 11:24:49 <wibbit> ScaredyCat: I suppose, you have the option of setting it up so that if a keyboard is attached (surely the system will know) then the onscreen keyboard can be hidden.
May 16 11:25:03 <ScaredyCat> who are these gui design numptys ?
May 16 11:25:11 * SpeedEvil passes raster gifts for the people that decided that. Eighteen puppies full of coffee.
May 16 11:25:15 <ScaredyCat> wibbit: you'd think so..
May 16 11:25:19 <wibbit> raster: never give up raging against the machine :)
May 16 11:25:45 <trickie_> wibbit: right on!
May 16 11:26:04 <wibbit> Especially when the machines are numpty's
May 16 11:26:07 <raster> wibbit: i do.
May 16 11:26:23 <ScaredyCat> did you just marry wibbit?
May 16 11:26:36 * wibbit blushes
May 16 11:27:00 <raster> hahahaha
May 16 11:27:17 * wibbit wonders how he'd look in a dress
May 16 11:28:09 <ScaredyCat> *shudder*
May 16 11:28:09 <raster> i thought one reaosn i'm here is
May 16 11:28:33 <raster> 1. i have been doing software - gui software, for a loooong time. i have dealt directly with users for over a decade. i KNOW what they will say
May 16 11:28:39 <raster> i can predict your reactions almost to a tea
May 16 11:28:40 <raster> i do X
May 16 11:28:43 <raster> you will say Y
May 16 11:28:48 <raster> its nice and predictable
May 16 11:28:57 <raster> (once u've done it for long enough)
May 16 11:29:08 <SpeedEvil> raster: ah - but we are not the users they're interested in (they hope) 
May 16 11:29:16 <raster> so i can shortcut doing anything by saying "lets not do that - users will complain about X, Y, Z"
May 16 11:29:20 <raster> and save the effort
May 16 11:29:20 <SpeedEvil> raster: the users they hope for are utter newbs.
May 16 11:29:30 <raster> but apparently that is now why i am here
May 16 11:29:39 <raster> and such advice is not sught nor heeded.
May 16 11:29:42 <raster> sought
May 16 11:30:01 <raster> utter newbs will be so royally FUCKED using the freerunner
May 16 11:30:08 <raster> i feel sorry for them
May 16 11:30:08 <SpeedEvil> Yes.
May 16 11:30:10 <raster> already
May 16 11:30:25 * wibbit wonders if the phone would sell well to udder newbs.
May 16 11:37:02 <wibbit> Always nice to have faith in one's products :(
May 16 11:41:18 <SpeedEvil> Well - worst case, it's open hardware which can be forked.
May 16 11:41:45 <SpeedEvil> If I win the lottery... :)
May 16 11:42:16 <tc> raster: Do you mean that newbs will be "fucked" with the initial offering, and then the software will be improved for them, or is the hardware platform the problem?
May 16 11:49:38 <TAsn> hehe today is may 16.
May 16 11:49:45 <TAsn> nothing happend though :\
May 16 11:50:00 <TAsn> i had this flashing memo, buy moko :)
May 16 11:50:36 <rwhitby> OK, anyone have opinions on how MokoMakefile should handle the new openmoko git repo checkout?
May 16 11:50:48 <rwhitby> Should I assume that people make local changes, and rebase them on every update?
May 16 11:52:25 <wibbit> TAsn: 16th's not over yet :)
May 16 11:52:37 <TAsn> hehe :)
May 16 11:53:42 <CIA-43> freesmartphone.org: 03mdt * r62d4aec55b21 10/pyneod/setup.py: add lost installer script
May 16 11:55:49 <nigel_c> rwhitby: Make local changes, keep a master branch which gets pulled to then merged with local changes branch
May 16 11:56:34 <nigel_c> then diff against current master = git diff master..local-branch
May 16 11:56:43 <nigel_c> rebasing is ugly
May 16 11:56:50 <rwhitby> nigel_c: the master will be origin/foo, checked out to local foo branch
May 16 11:57:32 <nigel_c> Yeah, so then I make a local nigel branch. When I want to pull the latest from origin/foo,
May 16 11:57:39 <rwhitby> nigel_c: if you're going to submit your local changes back as patches, then rebasing is necessary isn't it?
May 16 11:57:50 <nigel_c> I pull it into local foo, then checkout local and git merge foo.
May 16 11:57:56 <nigel_c> No, it's not.
May 16 11:57:56 <rwhitby> (assuming here that openmoko won't be pulling from mokomakefile user's git repos)
May 16 11:58:06 <nigel_c> After merging, you just do the git diff I mentioned above.
May 16 11:58:24 <rwhitby> but then you can't use git-format-patch, can you?
May 16 11:58:31 <nigel_c> At least that's the way I prepare tuxonice patches against Linus' kernel.
May 16 11:58:45 <nigel_c> I don't use git-format-patch - I use git diff.
May 16 11:58:47 <XorA> you need to rebase when patches collide
May 16 11:58:57 <rwhitby> I prepare nslu2-linux kernel patches rebasing, cause that's what the arm kernel maintainer requires
May 16 11:59:08 <nigel_c> XorA: git merge will tell you rejects and let you fix them.
May 16 11:59:24 <nigel_c> It will probably work both ways :)
May 16 11:59:32 <XorA> nigel_c: but then you end with your git history being a mess of tiny fixes
May 16 11:59:43 <raster> tc:  the software
May 16 11:59:56 <raster> tc:  its not wel featured . it has many rough bits
May 16 11:59:56 <nigel_c> No, it's all the normal patches, just with occasional merge commits in the changelog.
May 16 11:59:56 <rwhitby> rebase allows the receiver of the patch to see the exact commit you're patching against
May 16 12:00:03 <raster> it has nerdy bits u will need to end up playing with
May 16 12:00:11 <nigel_c> :)
May 16 12:00:14 <raster> it is not ready for mass-usage
May 16 12:00:21 <nigel_c> I guess it depends how your patches are getting upstream.
May 16 12:00:24 <raster> maybe in a year - or well over time it will improve
May 16 12:00:28 <raster> but as it stands - no.
May 16 12:00:32 <nigel_c> If they're git pulling from you, I don't think you want to rebase.
May 16 12:00:43 <nigel_c> if you're emailing patches, maybe rebase is the way to go.
May 16 12:01:12 <rwhitby> nigel_c: agreed - if you've got a public repo then rebase is bad
May 16 12:01:20 <rwhitby> if you're mailing patches, then rebase is good
May 16 12:01:43 <nigel_c> k. I don't mail patches, so I'll be quiet now :)
May 16 12:01:44 <rwhitby> (at least that's my naive view of the git world)
May 16 12:02:10 <nigel_c> I just commit, pull, merge and push
May 16 12:02:36 <nigel_c> I'm not sure anyone but Linus and maybe a couple of others understand git fully :)
May 16 12:03:19 <rwhitby> nigel_c: so the person pulling tuxonice patches from you doesn't mind all the extra merges?
May 16 12:03:40 <rwhitby> (cause RMK and Linus really hate them apparently)
May 16 12:04:09 <nigel_c> The extra merges don't matter to them, because they're just commits they already have.
May 16 12:04:42 <nigel_c> If someone pulls 2.6.25.4, say, and then makes a branch for tuxonice-for-2.6.25 and pulls from my kernel.org
May 16 12:04:50 <nigel_c> tree, they'll only pull the tuxonice changes.
May 16 12:05:10 <rwhitby> fair enough
May 16 12:05:38 <nigel_c> My understanding is that rebasing causes more trouble to people who want to keep pulling from you,
May 16 12:06:04 <nigel_c> but my understanding might be wrong :)
May 16 12:06:24 <rwhitby> nigel_c: fully agree - if someone is pulling from you more than once then rebasing is completely outlawed
May 16 12:16:50 <cekay> hey guys. does anyone know if i can create an APM event, so that the gta02 hardware resumes from suspend on an incoming call?
May 16 12:17:20 <SpeedEvil> cekay: in principle yes
May 16 12:17:21 <XorA> cekay: it should do
May 16 12:17:31 <SpeedEvil> APM isn't it though
May 16 12:18:43 <cekay> XorA: i'm trying it on qtopia and it doesn't resume :)
May 16 12:18:53 <CVirus> so .. production has started .. right ?
May 16 12:19:09 <XorA> cekay: yeah it should do :-)
May 16 12:19:16 <XorA> cekay: does it resume at all?
May 16 12:19:17 <cekay> heh :)
May 16 12:19:27 <cekay> yea, it resumes
May 16 12:19:37 <XorA> cekay: there are currently some kernel issues see kernel mailing list
May 16 12:19:59 <cekay> ok. thanks for your help :)
May 16 12:20:35 <cekay> XorA: lkml or is there an openmoko kernel-ml?
May 16 12:20:52 <XorA> cekay: there is an openmoko-kernel
May 16 12:20:57 <XorA> cedric: see lists.openmoko.org
May 16 12:20:57 <cekay> ok
May 16 12:21:07 <cekay> :-)
May 16 12:21:08 <XorA> cekay:  see lists.openmoko.org
May 16 12:21:08 <rwhitby> XorA: is the openmoko svn area also moving to git?  if so, isn't the openmoko.git name already taken by the openembedded repo?
May 16 12:21:26 <XorA> rwhitby: svn is staying svn AFAIK
May 16 12:21:55 <CIA-43> openmoko: 03thomas * r4440 10/trunk/src/target/opkg/libopkg/ (args.c args.h opkg_conf.c opkg_conf.h): opkg: remove verbose_wget option
May 16 12:24:13 <tc> raster: Thanks for clearing that up, I just wanted to ensure your comment wasn't taken out of context
May 16 12:24:16 <tc> :)
May 16 12:24:44 <raster> tx sometimes i am a bit extreme :)
May 16 12:24:52 <raster> but its me being very conservative on the software front
May 16 12:25:03 <raster> i dont want people to have hopes that are misplaced
May 16 12:27:42 <tc> raster: Makes sense. I think delaying the hardware release for user-ready software would be a big mistake
May 16 12:29:01 <raster> i would agree
May 16 12:29:01 <tc> and I have little motivation to hack on the software without a freerunner to run it on, PC's are just not the same
May 16 12:32:58 * ScaredyCat sells tc an 01 with an 02 sticker on it
May 16 12:33:25 <cekay> sell me some stickers :)
May 16 12:34:26 <ScaredyCat> :)
May 16 12:34:50 * ScaredyCat kicks off another clean build :(
May 16 12:35:40 <cekay> good luck
May 16 12:35:57 <ScaredyCat> it wont work, I know that, I just need to prove it
May 16 12:36:17 <cekay> :-(
May 16 12:37:16 <mjr> Well. At least it's an easier job than proving it _does_ work.
May 16 12:37:25 <SpeedEvil> where's yours sticking Sc?
May 16 12:37:46 <ScaredyCat> my avahi / libssp stuff 
May 16 12:38:09 <ScaredyCat> I can get round it, I just don't want to work around it I want to find the cause
May 16 12:38:19 <SpeedEvil> hmm. gdb here
May 16 12:38:40 <ScaredyCat> are you useing san srcrevs ?
May 16 12:39:10 <ScaredyCat> sane
May 16 12:43:01 <SpeedEvil> I haven't touched anything other than the binary locales thing
May 16 12:51:01 <ScaredyCat> hrmml...
May 16 12:51:57 <ScaredyCat> can someone paste in their EXTRA_OECONF line from ./openembedded/packages/avahi/avahi.inc for me
May 16 12:52:52 <CIA-43> freesmartphone.org: 03mickey * r473cd54120c4 10/ophoned/ (gsm/const.py gsm/mediator.py objects.py): python-ophoned: org.freesmartphone.GSM.SIM.RetrieveMessagebook done.
May 16 12:53:52 <mickeyl> EXTRA_OECONF = "--with-distro=debian  --disable-nls --disable-gdbm ${AVAHI_GTK} --disable-mono --disable-monodoc --disable-qt3 --disable-qt4 ${AVAHI_PYTHON}"
May 16 12:54:32 <ScaredyCat> thanks
May 16 13:05:27 <rwhitby> With the git repo, a null "make update" now takes only 23 seconds.
May 16 13:06:04 <rwhitby> (and most of that is the svn updates for trunk and developers)
May 16 13:27:21 <CIA-43> freesmartphone.org: 03jluebbe * r548a75edec2f 10/setup.py: Correctly declare the encoding
May 16 13:29:34 <CIA-43> freesmartphone.org: 03jluebbe * rc7a6cdcc72ed 10/ousaged/ (ousaged ouseaged): Fix incorretly named script
May 16 13:31:42 <AzalynHD> before may 16th ! :D
May 16 13:31:52 <AzalynHD> what a coincidence that it is may 16th today! :D
May 16 13:32:17 <XorA> what happens on may 16th
May 16 13:32:26 <CVirus> MASS PRODUCTIONS BEGINSSSS
May 16 13:32:28 <CVirus> WOHOOO
May 16 13:32:35 <XorA> you mean I can finally guy one?
May 16 13:32:36 <CVirus> any updates from steve ?
May 16 13:32:38 <CVirus> no
May 16 13:32:52 <AzalynHD> no, it means they're finally being made.
May 16 13:32:53 <XorA> :-( Ive been waiting years to buy one
May 16 13:33:02 <AzalynHD> i imagine it should only be a month or two at the most.
May 16 13:33:06 <XorA> :-(
May 16 13:33:11 <AzalynHD> there will be a test period.
May 16 13:33:14 <CVirus> I can't wait any longer
May 16 13:33:19 <CVirus> tests ? again ?
May 16 13:33:30 <AzalynHD> CVirus: well, final production tests.
May 16 13:33:35 <AzalynHD> i'm just guessing.
May 16 13:33:45 <AzalynHD> keep in mind this is hardware, not software.
May 16 13:33:52 <SpeedEvil>  np: Zaeger and Evans - In the year 2525
May 16 13:34:05 <AzalynHD> there's no such thing as 'releasing a patch to fix a hardware problem'
May 16 13:34:12 <SpeedEvil> Sure there is.
May 16 13:34:15 <CVirus> those tests are done already
May 16 13:34:17 <SpeedEvil> It's just bloody expensive.
May 16 13:34:20 <AzalynHD> so they have to make absolutely certain.
May 16 13:34:49 <janneg> CVirus: tests for not delivering broken devices
May 16 13:34:50 <AzalynHD> SpeedEvil: modding your own phone to fix the problem doesn't count. :|
May 16 13:34:59 <ScaredyCat> shop is open
May 16 13:35:02 <SpeedEvil> I mean it involves couriers, and moddings.
May 16 13:35:02 <CVirus> janneg: ah
May 16 13:35:03 <ScaredyCat> errm...
May 16 13:35:06 <ScaredyCat> not
May 16 13:35:07 <CVirus> huh ???
May 16 13:35:08 <CVirus> damn
May 16 13:35:12 * SpeedEvil stabs ScaredyCat.
May 16 13:35:22 * SpeedEvil unstabs ScaredyCat, as he's occasionally handy.
May 16 13:35:30 * ScaredyCat giggles and dances around SpeedEvil
May 16 13:35:49 <AzalynHD> i might wait for the second batch of phones before buying one.
May 16 13:36:00 <ScaredyCat> I just know they're going to take orders on the day I'm away
May 16 13:36:04 <AzalynHD> i want to see what interesting apps people will come up with and so on.
May 16 13:36:12 <AzalynHD> and for now i'm a bit short on cash.
May 16 13:36:14 <SpeedEvil> ScaredyCat: give me your CC details, and I'll order for you.
May 16 13:36:20 <AzalynHD> i'd like to sell my old phone before i get a new one
May 16 13:36:32 * ScaredyCat hands SpeedEvil XorA's cc
May 16 13:36:33 <rwhitby> Yeah, best to wait for GTA02.1 rather than buying GTA02.0
May 16 13:36:38 <rwhitby> ;-)
May 16 13:36:42 <SpeedEvil> GTA04!
May 16 13:36:54 <CVirus> whats GTA ?
May 16 13:36:58 <CVirus> Grand Theft Auto ?
May 16 13:36:59 <CVirus> :-p
May 16 13:37:09 <rwhitby> GNU Telephony Appliance
May 16 13:37:10 <ScaredyCat> they're just trying to keep up with the game version numbers
May 16 13:37:11 <SpeedEvil> I don't think that's ever been revealed.
May 16 13:37:25 <rwhitby> oops
May 16 13:37:36 <AzalynHD> it's not a gnu project though :|
May 16 13:37:45 <ScaredyCat> Gybrush's Tiny Appendage
May 16 13:37:48 <CVirus> LOL @ ScaredyCat
May 16 13:38:35 <rwhitby> Greedy Towards Amperage
May 16 13:38:42 <AzalynHD> i think this is one of the most important hardware launches this year.
May 16 13:38:45 <AzalynHD> so they have to get it right.
May 16 13:39:27 <SpeedEvil> I think the hardware is unimportant.
May 16 13:39:43 <SpeedEvil> It has absolutely nothing over GTA01 in terms of vital end-user hardware.
May 16 13:40:04 <ScaredyCat> true, but the software needs something to run on
May 16 13:40:05 <AzalynHD> i find the more powerful cpu vital.
May 16 13:40:14 <AzalynHD> i like the extras that they added.
May 16 13:40:18 <SpeedEvil> Azalyn: but it's hamstrung by other issues.
May 16 13:40:20 <AzalynHD> i think it makes it more valuable as a phone.
May 16 13:40:28 <ScaredyCat> crippled...
May 16 13:40:40 <SpeedEvil> Azalyn: the graphics chip shares a horribly slow bus with the SD
May 16 13:40:41 <ScaredyCat> like a badger with one stripe
May 16 13:40:49 <SpeedEvil> It's about 16 bit ISA speed.
May 16 13:41:09 <AzalynHD> well, what if you're not using the sd card..
May 16 13:41:29 <SpeedEvil> Where else are you going to get video?
May 16 13:41:47 <SpeedEvil> other than BT/wifi/USB
May 16 13:41:48 <AzalynHD> i didn't specifically mention video..
May 16 13:41:49 * ScaredyCat points "somewhere"
May 16 13:42:15 <AzalynHD> even so there's probably a way in software to work around that
May 16 13:42:22 <SpeedEvil> There isn't.
May 16 13:42:26 <mwester> XorA:  How do I build Qtopia?  Or do I need a different branch checked out for that?  (Or is it not quite integrated into the OM OE repo, and I should be patient for a while?)
May 16 13:42:27 <ScaredyCat> the gta02 isn't for pron?
May 16 13:42:29 <SpeedEvil> The hardware bus is 8M/second
May 16 13:42:32 <SpeedEvil> 7M
May 16 13:42:49 <AzalynHD> and that's not good enough?
May 16 13:42:50 <SpeedEvil> It's shared between the graphics chip and the SD card, which is hung off the graphics chip
May 16 13:43:54 <CVirus> we'll never get any video on the freerunner ?
May 16 13:44:09 <ScaredyCat> not no 
May 16 13:44:17 <AzalynHD> i'm sure it'll work somehow..
May 16 13:44:32 <ScaredyCat> isn't cb22 working on that?
May 16 13:44:36 <CVirus> not now ?
May 16 13:44:37 <CVirus> not no ?
May 16 13:44:40 <SpeedEvil> ScaredyCat: no
May 16 13:44:41 <ScaredyCat> not no...
May 16 13:44:43 <ScaredyCat> yes
May 16 13:44:46 <ScaredyCat> :)
May 16 13:44:48 <SpeedEvil> ScaredyCat: he's working on low bitrate video
May 16 13:44:58 <ScaredyCat> right
May 16 13:45:17 <SpeedEvil> ScaredyCat: which is a seperate problem. Scaling small video can work.
May 16 13:45:23 <CVirus> can i has video on me freirunnar ?
May 16 13:45:32 <CIA-43> freesmartphone.org: 03jluebbe * r3e0c1367400e 10/setup.py: Install the modules directory
May 16 13:45:40 <SpeedEvil> Some sort of video, yes.
May 16 13:45:47 <MetaMorfoziS> :DD
May 16 13:45:54 <madwoota> video, one jpg at a time :P
May 16 13:45:57 <CVirus> haha
May 16 13:45:59 <SpeedEvil> The same speed of video as you might with a 400MHz GTA01 - no
May 16 13:46:00 <ScaredyCat> who cares anyway, so long as we ge tthe lightsaber app
May 16 13:46:10 <madwoota> whoosh!
May 16 13:46:19 <AzalynHD> madwoota: that is a format you know... :|
May 16 13:46:20 <AzalynHD> mjpeg
May 16 13:46:29 <AzalynHD> it's the one used a lot on digital cameras
May 16 13:46:34 <AzalynHD> my nikon uses it
May 16 13:46:48 <AzalynHD> it's high quality and the file-size is *massive*
May 16 13:47:19 <madwoota> sorry, i retract my incorrect attempt at humour for not considering rare digressions of technicality
May 16 13:47:30 <CVirus> rofl
May 16 13:47:31 <AzalynHD> Yeah you better!
May 16 13:47:47 <AzalynHD> I showed him.
May 16 13:47:52 <AzalynHD> :P
May 16 13:47:52 <madwoota> <-- pwned
May 16 13:48:43 <madwoota> video, one non-specific-static-image-format-usually-using-a-bitmap-style-rather-than-a-vector at a time
May 16 13:48:46 <AzalynHD> what about lowering the quality of an hq video?
May 16 13:48:50 <madwoota> just doesnt quite have the same ring
May 16 13:48:52 <rwhitby> mwester: mokomakefile can build qtopia-x11 image, and you can now tell it to use the april-update branch ...
May 16 13:49:12 <SpeedEvil> Azalyn: recoding will make it work, yes, at low res.
May 16 13:49:37 <madwoota> oh wait, ringd is broken, must wait for gta03 :)
May 16 13:49:42 <AzalynHD> I recall i got mp3's to play on my 486 with win98 and 8MB ram. the mp3 player essentially lowered the bitrate of the mp3. so it could play without any skipping.
May 16 13:50:01 <AzalynHD> but the mp3 itself had high bitrate.
May 16 13:50:02 <SpeedEvil> 486/75 cannot play mp3
May 16 13:50:11 <AzalynHD> it so can.
May 16 13:50:13 <AzalynHD> i did it.
May 16 13:50:14 <mwester> rwhitby:  qtopia-x11-image failed badly a couple days ago on HEAD, so I'll go try the april-update branch instead.  (I was hoping I didn't have to do a complete rebuild, but that's probably not a bad idea in the grand scheme of things anyway).
May 16 13:50:14 <SpeedEvil> Err
May 16 13:50:29 * madwoota remembers doing mp3's on his 486 dx2/66
May 16 13:50:33 <SpeedEvil> Not at least when I tried it.
May 16 13:50:35 <rwhitby> mwester: oh, qtopia-x11-image only works for gta02 as far as I know
May 16 13:50:35 <AzalynHD> it was a 486 laptop
May 16 13:50:35 <SpeedEvil> oh well.
May 16 13:50:47 <mwester> rwhitby:  Aaagh!  :(
May 16 13:50:49 <SpeedEvil> My 486 laptop would get about 75% throughput
May 16 13:51:17 <madwoota> i remember overnight encodes for an album
May 16 13:51:18 <SpeedEvil> of a 128K mp3
May 16 13:51:20 <madwoota> heh
May 16 13:51:57 <AzalynHD> well anyways, my point was maybe the video could be lowered in quality on the fly. basically taking a high quality video, but rendering it in low quality.
May 16 13:52:12 <AzalynHD> that way we wouldn't have to re-encode.
May 16 13:52:20 <madwoota> you assume transcoding requires less cpu time than decoding?
May 16 13:52:29 <mwester> Anyone have a qtopia image that works on the GTA01?
May 16 13:53:03 <AzalynHD> well, i don't think it's the cpu we're worried about.. it's that the video/gpu/whatever is shared with the sd card.
May 16 13:53:20 <AzalynHD> the cpu itself is good.
May 16 13:53:24 <ScaredyCat> ls
May 16 13:54:12 <SpeedEvil> madwoota: no - I mean transcode before
May 16 13:54:46 <SpeedEvil> Azalyn: playing back at half resolution helps lots - but doesn't helo that much with decoding time 
May 16 13:55:11 <AzalynHD> SpeedEvil: but the cpu isn't shared is it?
May 16 13:55:25 <zash> is it possible to make the gfx-thingy read directly from sd?
May 16 13:55:32 <SpeedEvil> zash: no
May 16 13:55:44 <XorA> mwester: did you just ask me a question, I lost it usb on my machine seems to have just lost its magic smoke
May 16 13:55:44 <zash> :(
May 16 13:55:44 <SpeedEvil> zash: It isn't programmable that way.
May 16 13:56:07 <AzalynHD> i know that it still means that when it pulls the data from the sd card.. it will use more of the bus than if it was transcoded.. (filesize will be bigger..
May 16 13:56:09 <AzalynHD> )
May 16 13:56:11 <AzalynHD> but yeah..
May 16 13:56:19 <AzalynHD> it's just one of many options i guess.
May 16 13:56:41 <mwester> XorA:  I was looking to build a qtopia image for the GTA01, and wondered if there is a way that is more correct than others.
May 16 13:56:46 <CIA-43> freesmartphone.org: 03jluebbe * rc7f83c3f696b 10/ousaged/ousaged: Import the correct controller
May 16 13:57:14 <AzalynHD> zash: the gpu would have to support gpgpu capabilities i think.. which i seriously doubt it does... :|
May 16 13:57:38 <AzalynHD> although it would be so awesome it if did.
May 16 13:57:46 <mwester> rwhitby pointed me to the april branch, so I think that might resolve  my build troubles for the qtopia X11 image.
May 16 13:59:22 <ScaredyCat> where is this april branch of which you speak
May 16 13:59:48 <mwester> Don't know.  Step one is to find it.
May 16 14:00:08 * ScaredyCat can't see it in the mf
May 16 14:00:11 <mwester> But there are only a limited number of places that branches can hide, so that shouldn't be too hard.
May 16 14:01:53 <ScaredyCat> ... is it public yet?
May 16 14:01:58 * rwhitby starts a complete build from scratch using the new git repo
May 16 14:02:05 <ScaredyCat> i thought XorA had some work to do
May 16 14:02:12 <CIA-43> freesmartphone.org: 03jluebbe * r2f02576532b5 10/odeviced/modules/ (helpers.py kernel26.py): Clean up sysfs filenames before using them as D-Bus paths
May 16 14:02:18 <rwhitby> org.openmoko.april-update
May 16 14:03:06 <rwhitby> I added a makefile var for it earlier today
May 16 14:05:22 * mwester should remember to do "make update-makefile" *before* doing things the hard way.
May 16 14:05:33 <ScaredyCat> really rwhitby?
May 16 14:05:38 <ScaredyCat> I just updated the mf
May 16 14:05:41 <ScaredyCat> can;t see it
May 16 14:07:08 <rwhitby> OM_BRANCH
May 16 14:07:15 <ScaredyCat> oh.. right
May 16 14:07:29 <ScaredyCat> not specifically april update...
May 16 14:07:33 <ScaredyCat> got you
May 16 14:14:36 <ScaredyCat> XorA: is the april update going to become the new 'live' ?
May 16 14:15:08 <XorA> april software update will become the god of software
May 16 14:15:33 <ScaredyCat> it wont exist?
May 16 14:15:47 <rwhitby> it will only exist if you have faith ....
May 16 14:15:52 <stefan_schmidt> XorA: Especially as we already have may for some time now. ;)
May 16 14:16:04 <stefan_schmidt> Debian release scheme
May 16 14:16:18 <stefan_schmidt> We give you a month, but not the year. :)
May 16 14:16:49 <XorA> Aprial isnt for 11 months
May 16 14:17:05 <ScaredyCat> is that a new month?
May 16 14:17:47 <rwhitby> yeah, comes after maarch
May 16 14:17:56 <ScaredyCat> so is this just a snapshot then...
May 16 14:18:03 <ScaredyCat> so build it once, move on
May 16 14:20:11 <CIA-43> freesmartphone.org: 03jluebbe * r8bb89a912163 10/setup.py: Adapt setup.py from odeviced
May 16 14:25:52 <idarwin> ï»ż CVirus: whats GTA ?   The G is probably for GSM, FIC makes other phones, the CDMA ones start with a C, ...
May 16 14:26:14 <ScaredyCat> XorA: 
May 16 14:27:03 <CVirus> idarwin: i see
May 16 14:31:27 <broedge> it is strange, i have reproducable "no desktops" when i try to ipkg like some gtk apps upon the minimalist OM image of Angstroma780
May 16 14:31:27 <broedge> just the "wireless" icons appear
May 16 14:31:29 <broedge> and in the terminal there is an error .. the syslog moment
May 16 14:33:01 <broedge> ok... kinda solved
May 16 14:36:58 <broedge> finally.. seems there is a problem with the task-openmoko-ui on my clamshell. but this , second, time , a reinstall just brought it back with ther nice clock and everything
May 16 14:37:48 <broedge> the
May 16 14:37:48 <broedge> may also be the reinstall of gtk+ and openmoko-today2
May 16 14:41:50 <CIA-43> openmoko: 03thomas * r4441 10/trunk/src/target/opkg/libopkg/libopkg.c: opkg: set callbacks before opkg_conf_init
May 16 14:43:42 <spydon> Anyone knows if the production has started? :)
May 16 14:49:57 <Kt_> ohh productionnnn
May 16 15:19:39 <mjr> Incidentally, a guy here is fretting over not having enough gpu bandwidth on the freerunner to run scummvm properly. I think he's out of it and scumm should be ok - it's not like it's full screen video. How goes? Anyone tried?
May 16 15:20:12 <dcordes_> on the freerunner lol
May 16 15:20:39 <dcordes_> I guess you can run multiple scummvm instances on it at the same time
May 16 15:20:42 <SpeedEvil> There is 8M/s bandwidth to the video card
May 16 15:22:07 <Kamping_Kaiser> SpeedEvil, does that mean quake is an option or not? ;)
May 16 15:22:21 <SpeedEvil> Kamping_Kaiser: not at 640*480 - 320*240 zoomed should be fine
May 16 15:22:34 <abraxa__> mjr: I'd think even the limited GPU bandwidth should be fine for ScummVM
May 16 15:22:39 <Kamping_Kaiser> SpeedEvil, \o/ so going to try
May 16 15:22:46 * Kamping_Kaiser goes to sleep happy
May 16 15:22:55 <SpeedEvil> 320*240*16 at 50% utilisation is 25fps
May 16 15:25:33 <mjr> and ScaredyCat, if you want help tying someone to a railway if they make it hard to disable the on-screen keyboard when using an external one, I'm there
May 16 15:28:55 <SpeedEvil> Me too!
May 16 15:29:02 <woglinde> hehe
May 16 15:29:07 <woglinde> pure raster
May 16 15:29:21 <SpeedEvil> I'll bring some nice steak for a party.
May 16 15:31:19 <SpeedEvil> I hate with a passion 'blue sky' UI types.
May 16 15:31:46 <mjr> (I btw assume that scumm doesn't redraw the entire buffer all the time? :] )
May 16 15:33:17 <raster> i'd hope it doesnt
May 16 15:33:18 <raster> :)
May 16 15:33:21 * mjr needs to buy some rechargeable AAAs for the bt pad btw
May 16 15:33:49 <SpeedEvil> mjr: you probably want eneloop/hybrio ones - that don't lose their charge rapidly
May 16 15:34:51 <raster> SpeedEvil: rememebr than bandiwdht is not the only problem
May 16 15:34:54 <ScaredyCat> wookie wookie
May 16 15:34:59 <SpeedEvil> raster: I know
May 16 15:35:02 <SpeedEvil> raster: also CPU
May 16 15:35:03 <raster> at 50% utilisation u also lost 50% of your cpu
May 16 15:35:04 <raster> :)
May 16 15:35:12 <SpeedEvil> raster: at one point you expressed hopes that you could do DMA
May 16 15:35:14 <raster> so its a bit nastier :(
May 16 15:35:17 <SpeedEvil> raster: have these been dashed?
May 16 15:35:18 <raster> yeah
May 16 15:35:22 <raster> that was an abysmal failure
May 16 15:35:25 <raster> yeah
May 16 15:35:30 <SpeedEvil> raster: :/
May 16 15:35:52 <raster> 1. it was hopless for small regions (i expected as much that we'd need to put in a "if # of bytes to dma is < that X, then memcpy< otheriwse dma)
May 16 15:36:03 <raster> that i expected as dma had setup costs
May 16 15:36:08 <raster> BUT
May 16 15:36:22 <raster> with large regions dma ended up 1/2 the speed of a memcpy
May 16 15:36:28 <raster> AND it locked up the memory bus anyway
May 16 15:36:33 <SpeedEvil> Ick.
May 16 15:36:41 <raster> whihc was what we were trying to avoid
May 16 15:36:52 <SpeedEvil> How is the DMA done - what port is it coming from.
May 16 15:37:07 <SpeedEvil> I had a brief look and diddn't see a way to do DMA from GPIO
May 16 15:37:14 <SpeedEvil> I guess I must have missed something
May 16 15:37:46 <raster> its a memory -> memory dma on the soc
May 16 15:37:50 <raster> as the glamo is memory mapped
May 16 15:37:58 <SpeedEvil> Ah
May 16 15:38:05 <SpeedEvil> It appears on the memory controller then?
May 16 15:38:11 <raster> yes
May 16 15:38:17 <SpeedEvil> That makes sense.
May 16 15:38:21 <raster> i had hopes
May 16 15:38:23 <raster> hopes dashed
May 16 15:38:27 <raster> unhappy raster
May 16 15:38:28 <raster> :(
May 16 15:38:37 <raster> i would have been much less unhappy then
May 16 15:38:55 <raster> withg the bandwidht limit - it'd just set an upper limit on image xfewrs up to vidoe ram
May 16 15:39:10 <raster> but it wouldnt kill out cpu while we hammered pixels up as fast as possible
May 16 15:39:19 <SpeedEvil> Does that impact reading from SD too?
May 16 15:39:23 <raster> yes
May 16 15:39:26 <SpeedEvil> Nasty.
May 16 15:39:30 <raster> as SD is on the lgamo
May 16 15:39:36 <raster> data to/from sd goes down the same bus as gfx
May 16 15:39:51 <raster> something i actually utterly ignored until recently when the whole video playing thread came up
May 16 15:39:57 <raster> it just made life worse
May 16 15:40:10 <raster> but i was already thinking they were pretyt damn bad
May 16 15:40:32 <raster> so i wasnt that shocked
May 16 15:41:07 <mjr> "should've put the wifi behind glamo"
May 16 15:41:09 <raster> i was not happy wiht vidoe memory separate form system ram on small system already
May 16 15:41:21 <raster> as it basically means unless your gfx chip is so full featured it can do everyuthing itself
May 16 15:41:27 <SpeedEvil> How hard is getting the video decoder working - if 'working' is to the extent of something as nasty as change to another VT and take over the whole screen while writing to a pipe to the glamo?
May 16 15:41:42 <raster> you end up sooner or later doing software gfx
May 16 15:41:46 <raster> to a greater or lesser extent
May 16 15:41:53 <raster> and a vidoe bus always presents a limit
May 16 15:41:58 <raster> hopefulyl not too bad of one
May 16 15:42:08 <raster> on high-end hardware where the gpu can do pretty mnuch everything
May 16 15:42:10 * mjr cheers for SpeedEvil's question
May 16 15:42:13 <raster> then the vidoe bus is almost moot
May 16 15:42:17 <SpeedEvil> Roll on 6400.
May 16 15:42:33 <raster> i'm all for gpus' that can do everything
May 16 15:42:37 <raster> give me one and i'm happy
May 16 15:42:38 <raster> :)
May 16 15:42:46 <raster> but if u cant
May 16 15:42:52 <raster> give me a uma system
May 16 15:42:54 <raster> fb is in system ram
May 16 15:43:04 <raster> write/read is ad memory bandwidth for the cpu
May 16 15:43:08 <raster> nbh
May 16 15:43:14 <raster> the 6400 has no advanced gfx
May 16 15:43:17 <raster> simple 2d
May 16 15:43:25 <raster> a bit better than glamo in 2d actually
May 16 15:43:27 <raster> but still simple
May 16 15:43:34 <SpeedEvil> But the 6410 is a simple upgrade
May 16 15:43:36 <SpeedEvil> in principle
May 16 15:43:45 <raster> it has limits od drawable sizes of 2048x2048 in hw
May 16 15:43:45 <abraxa__> raster: Will you be happy with the GTA04 CPU?
May 16 15:43:53 <raster> so u need ot tile thigns in 204x wide/high units
May 16 15:44:04 <SpeedEvil> Annoyingly I have to amke up a corporate fake website, so I can get docs from samsung.
May 16 15:44:05 <raster> ot fall back to software for any destination drawable > 2048 in a dimension
May 16 15:44:12 <SpeedEvil> for the sc64100
May 16 15:44:16 <SpeedEvil> for the sc6400
May 16 15:44:23 <raster> SpeedEvil:  aah. 6410 - not that is another matter
May 16 15:44:29 <mjr> 2048 pixels not really that limiting for a phone...
May 16 15:44:30 <raster> the 3d gpu looks a lot better
May 16 15:44:40 <raster> mjr:  thats my point :)
May 16 15:44:41 <AzalynHD> if the gta02 is a huge success, will the development of gta04 come about a little faster?
May 16 15:44:48 <raster> mjr: for a DESTINATION - definitely
May 16 15:44:56 <SpeedEvil> Azalyn: I'd be surprised at under a year.
May 16 15:44:58 <AzalynHD> because from gta01->gta02 it's taken a long time
May 16 15:45:02 <raster> right now gta04 has gone back on hold
May 16 15:45:06 <raster> and gta03 will be coming
May 16 15:45:12 <raster> gta03 is gta02 minus glamo
May 16 15:45:17 <SpeedEvil> raster: Ah.
May 16 15:45:18 <raster> in a new case
May 16 15:45:23 <AzalynHD> i thought gta03 would be a dev unit
May 16 15:45:26 <AzalynHD> like the gta01 was
May 16 15:45:32 <AzalynHD> like the linux kernel versioning model
May 16 15:45:39 <raster> and a newer 2g+edge gsm module
May 16 15:45:43 <SpeedEvil> Using the 2440?
May 16 15:45:48 <raster> 2442
May 16 15:45:49 <raster> yes
May 16 15:45:54 <mjr> edge, pfft
May 16 15:45:58 <SpeedEvil> Exposing the camera bus might be an idea.
May 16 15:45:59 <AzalynHD> what's 'glamo' ?
May 16 15:46:05 <SpeedEvil> Azalyn: the accel chip
May 16 15:46:06 <AzalynHD> the sd/gpu shared bus thing?
May 16 15:46:07 <raster> so basically gta02 minus glamo basically
May 16 15:46:12 <raster> plus camera
May 16 15:46:13 <raster> sorry
May 16 15:46:20 <CVirus> when steve shows up .. he has got alot to explain
May 16 15:46:28 <SpeedEvil> raster: Interesting, thanks.
May 16 15:46:31 <AzalynHD> wait.. so gta03 won't have the gpu?
May 16 15:46:37 <raster> but this is all overe the shop now
May 16 15:46:44 <mjr> AzalynHD, apparently it's more trouble than worth
May 16 15:46:50 <raster> gta04 is being pushed futher back now into the "not the next thing"
May 16 15:47:11 <broedge> NEO wont rise or fall with the crappy DVBT or skype ; hugh
May 16 15:47:11 <broedge> buit i want a flipper game
May 16 15:47:11 <broedge> but
May 16 15:47:53 <raster> i was thinkign that gta04 was going well
May 16 15:47:53 <rwhitby> I thought http://walkingice.twbbs.org/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/gta03.JPG was gta03
May 16 15:48:01 <raster> but hey
May 16 15:48:27 <raster> hahahahaah
May 16 15:48:43 * mjr would think it a bad idea to do a little incremental change in hardware at this point (gta03) :/
May 16 15:49:04 <raster> you will need to argue that with sean
May 16 15:49:12 <raster> he 100% disagrees
May 16 15:49:17 <raster> dont look at me
May 16 15:49:18 <rwhitby>  /invite sean
May 16 15:49:23 <raster> i'm all for gta04
May 16 15:49:24 * SpeedEvil looks at raster.
May 16 15:49:31 <dbmoodb> well today is the 17th
May 16 15:49:34 <raster> our gta02 is built on ancient board and hw and chips
May 16 15:49:34 <AzalynHD> isn't there an alternative gpu that would be better suited?
May 16 15:49:37 <dbmoodb> has it gone out yet
May 16 15:49:39 <raster> it need a radical revamp
May 16 15:49:44 <raster> to something modern
May 16 15:49:53 <SpeedEvil> Azalyn: not really
May 16 15:49:54 <raster> AzalynHD: none
May 16 15:49:55 <AzalynHD> to replace the glamo, instead of just tossing out the idea altogether?
May 16 15:49:59 <rwhitby> dbmoodb: yeah, we've all got one already
May 16 15:50:04 <AzalynHD> hm
May 16 15:50:09 <raster> AzalynHD: any gpu that is vaguely nice is combined on  an soc
May 16 15:50:10 <dbmoodb> usb graphics card ?
May 16 15:50:15 <raster> so you choose soc, not gpu
May 16 15:50:17 <SpeedEvil> Azalyn: the idea is nice - if there was a suitable open, low-power small chip
May 16 15:50:22 <SpeedEvil> Azalyn: there isn't really
May 16 15:50:29 <raster> yeah
May 16 15:50:37 <raster> ny that are there are also pretty weak
May 16 15:50:40 <dbmoodb> ... SpeedEvil --> do the gpu stuff off site
May 16 15:50:46 <AzalynHD> so the sd controller is on the same system on chip as the gpu?
May 16 15:50:51 <dbmoodb> render farm / render from your home computer
May 16 15:51:02 <SpeedEvil> Azalyn: no - not this one
May 16 15:51:07 <SpeedEvil> Azalyn: it's off-chip
May 16 15:51:12 <mjr> Yes, gta02 shows its age in several things. That's why I'd think you'd want your next phone not to show its age already when in planning...
May 16 15:51:19 <AzalynHD> so then why is the sd bus shared?
May 16 15:51:24 <SpeedEvil> Azalyn: and it connects the SoC to the SD as well as being the GPU
May 16 15:51:25 <AzalynHD> with the gpu?
May 16 15:51:40 <SpeedEvil> Azalyn: because the wifi is connected where GTA01 had the SD
May 16 15:51:51 <dbmoodb> they didn't think it through --- 
May 16 15:51:59 <SpeedEvil> Anyone got a broken GTA01?
May 16 15:52:03 <AzalynHD> hm..
May 16 15:52:09 <dbmoodb> SpeedEvil:  if i turn off that wifi and use my own is that ok then ?
May 16 15:52:10 <SpeedEvil> I want to try putting wifi in.
May 16 15:52:19 <SpeedEvil> cmb: no - the wires are not tehre
May 16 15:52:43 <AzalynHD> so can't gta03 just 'fix' the issues with the sd being shared, instead of just tossing out the gpu altogether..
May 16 15:53:06 <SpeedEvil> Azalyn: the GPU is in many ways a negative
May 16 15:53:11 <AzalynHD> why?
May 16 15:53:18 <SpeedEvil> Azalyn: at least as it is currently configured.
May 16 15:53:27 <CVirus> SpeedEvil: where did you get the wireless module from ?
May 16 15:53:30 <SpeedEvil> Azalyn: because it's so limited and hard to work with.
May 16 15:53:37 <SpeedEvil> CVirus: dealextrem.com
May 16 15:53:41 <AzalynHD> well, that's what i'm saying, why don't they 'fix' it in gta03 instead of just throwing it out
May 16 15:53:48 <SpeedEvil> s/em./eme./
May 16 15:53:48 <apt> SpeedEvil meant: CVirus: dealextreme.com
May 16 15:54:04 <CVirus> thanks
May 16 15:54:09 <SpeedEvil> Azalyn: the fixes cannot be made as they are fundamental to the chip
May 16 15:54:17 <SpeedEvil> CVirus: it's just a shaved-down USB key though
May 16 15:54:25 <SpeedEvil> Azalyn: the GPU chip
May 16 15:54:44 <AzalynHD> could a faster cpu do it better with software rendering, than this gpu can do?
May 16 15:55:18 <broedge> does wifi run on the neo, when you plug a external prism2 stick in client /host usb mode?
May 16 15:55:23 <AzalynHD> even a limited gpu can be useful.. unless it's so bad that even software rendering would be better.. :\
May 16 15:55:46 <broedge> ah k
May 16 15:55:47 <raster> one problem is the vga screen
May 16 15:55:52 <dbmoodb> broedge: it has no reason not to 
May 16 15:55:56 <dbmoodb> i plan on doing so
May 16 15:55:59 <raster> filling a vga screen full of pixels is 4x the daya most phones deal with
May 16 15:56:09 <rwhitby> SpeedEvil: I have two broken GTA01's, but OpenMoko wants them back
May 16 15:56:09 <raster> err data
May 16 15:56:26 <broedge> yes but DID someone test it? any chipset lists? 
May 16 15:56:28 <raster> so imagine u went from 400mhz to 100mhz
May 16 15:56:30 <SpeedEvil> Azalyn: in many senses, no GPU would be better
May 16 15:56:33 <raster> for software rendering
May 16 15:56:46 <raster> no gpu simplifies things a lot
May 16 15:56:49 <raster> leaves it to software
May 16 15:57:07 <raster> removes a complicted driver for what is not a veryt  powerful chip
May 16 15:57:34 <raster> the glamo would hve been good
May 16 15:57:35 <AzalynHD> well... using 300MHz for software rendering isn't a big deal.. unless you're multitasking.
May 16 15:57:41 <raster> 5 years ago
May 16 15:57:52 <raster> azx 100mhz
May 16 15:57:55 <raster> not losing 100mhz
May 16 15:57:56 <broedge> !glamo
May 16 15:57:57 <raster> down to 100mhz
May 16 15:58:06 <AzalynHD> that's what i said
May 16 15:58:18 <raster> no
May 16 15:58:21 <AzalynHD> yeah.
May 16 15:58:24 <raster> thats spending 100% of your cpu doing rendering
May 16 15:58:33 <raster> it has 4x the output data to generate
May 16 15:58:49 <raster> compared to your average qvga phone or pda
May 16 15:59:03 <AzalynHD> you said it goes down to 100... how is that 100% ?
May 16 16:00:08 <raster> pause
May 16 16:00:19 <raster> when doing software rendering you use the cpu to do it
May 16 16:00:29 <AzalynHD> yes i know..
May 16 16:00:35 <raster> that means all display related stuff for output is consuming cpu cycles
May 16 16:00:52 <dbmoodb> dude just outsource the rendering 
May 16 16:00:59 <unknown_lamer> raster: so if dma stalls the memory controller ... does the cpu at least not spin at full power during that time?
May 16 16:01:00 <SpeedEvil> dmb: to what?
May 16 16:01:02 <dbmoodb> -- i dont' see the issue just add a usb graphics card 
May 16 16:01:05 <raster> that means to do something like redraw a window contents will consume all cpu
May 16 16:01:06 <dbmoodb> -- have an addon
May 16 16:01:07 <SpeedEvil> dbmoodb: hahahahahah
May 16 16:01:13 <raster> (except for timeslices dished out ot other processes)
May 16 16:01:13 <SpeedEvil> dmb: you can't do that
May 16 16:01:16 <dbmoodb> in a few years / now soon we can do it
May 16 16:01:19 <dbmoodb> /dev/usbgraphics
May 16 16:01:24 <SpeedEvil> dbmoodb: they don' support 
May 16 16:01:25 <AzalynHD> the usb is 1.1
May 16 16:01:28 <raster> if you have to product 4x the output in pixels you have 4 time the work
May 16 16:01:28 <AzalynHD> :|
May 16 16:01:32 <SpeedEvil> dbmoodb: LCDs for one
May 16 16:01:35 <dbmoodb> what ?
May 16 16:01:36 <dbmoodb> 1.1
May 16 16:01:42 <raster> (ok i lie - not quite - we can debate that though. its a pretty good rule of thumb)
May 16 16:01:42 <AzalynHD> i think so
May 16 16:01:43 <dbmoodb> WTF
May 16 16:01:45 <dbmoodb> no
May 16 16:01:46 <AzalynHD> isn't it?
May 16 16:01:49 <dbmoodb> i hope not
May 16 16:01:52 <raster> that means your average phone whihc these days is qvga
May 16 16:01:53 <SpeedEvil> It is USB 1.1
May 16 16:01:53 <AzalynHD> i believe that's what i saw
May 16 16:01:55 <raster> or 1/4 the pixels
May 16 16:01:56 <dbmoodb> or i will backout of my group
May 16 16:01:59 <AzalynHD> on their site
May 16 16:02:03 <raster> can get 4x the framerate
May 16 16:02:04 <dbmoodb> ok cya
May 16 16:02:06 <AzalynHD> what group?
May 16 16:02:11 <dbmoodb> local group
May 16 16:02:13 <raster> or with the same, use 1.4 of its resource if it was the same cpu
May 16 16:02:14 <dbmoodb> buying
May 16 16:02:20 <dbmoodb> i'm not buying if it is usb 1.1
May 16 16:02:23 <raster> unknown_lamer: there is no dma
May 16 16:02:31 <AzalynHD> it's not a big deal.
May 16 16:02:40 <dbmoodb> how the hell can i get data onto the thing then ?
May 16 16:02:48 <abraxa__> dbmoodb: WiFi/BT
May 16 16:02:52 <dbmoodb> no
May 16 16:03:02 <AzalynHD> why not?
May 16 16:03:03 <dbmoodb> that is not an answer that is an excuse 
May 16 16:03:07 <AzalynHD> wireless is better
May 16 16:03:14 <dbmoodb> than usb 2 ?
May 16 16:03:16 <dbmoodb> oh ffs
May 16 16:03:18 <CIA-43> freesmartphone.org: 03jluebbe * rc1b73d7b4bc3 10/src/zhone: Allow enabling and disabling fullscreen using options
May 16 16:03:19 <raster> dmdata still goes on
May 16 16:03:22 <raster> just not that fast
May 16 16:03:28 <SpeedEvil> dbmoodb: everything is a compromise.
May 16 16:03:29 <raster> usb1.1 isnt a bottleneck tho
May 16 16:03:37 <raster> i can only scp onto it at about 300-400kb/sec
May 16 16:03:44 <raster> half the usb bbandwidth
May 16 16:04:00 <raster> fs io and cpu for ssh and other stuff limit it anyway
May 16 16:04:04 <SpeedEvil> raster: that's quite irreelevant - the valid test is curl/...
May 16 16:04:04 * rwhitby wonders what the throughput of manual sd card swapping is ...
May 16 16:04:06 <dbmoodb> where does it say usb 1.1
May 16 16:04:22 <mjr> dbmoodb, doesn't matter where it says. It is.
May 16 16:04:22 <SpeedEvil> raster: as scp does compression
May 16 16:04:29 <mjr> if that's a dealbreaker for you, too bad
May 16 16:04:49 <rwhitby> no, we should halt productin cause it's a dealbreaker for dbmoodb!
May 16 16:04:52 <dbmoodb> well can i get rsync
May 16 16:04:55 <dbmoodb> no rwhitby
May 16 16:05:03 <AzalynHD> WiFI is 54 Mbit/s
May 16 16:05:08 <AzalynHD> that's not fast enough for you?
May 16 16:05:08 <dbmoodb> mmm rsync on a phone who would have thaught it 
May 16 16:05:11 <unknown_lamer> raster: I thought you tried using dma but discovered that it stalled the memory controller?
May 16 16:05:40 <AzalynHD> dbmoodb: personally i'm planning not just to use rsync
May 16 16:05:43 <AzalynHD> but ssh
May 16 16:05:56 <AzalynHD> and many other typical desktop/workstation stuff
May 16 16:06:00 <AzalynHD> :)
May 16 16:06:10 <dbmoodb> ssh ?
May 16 16:06:13 <dbmoodb> nar too slow
May 16 16:06:16 <AzalynHD> the freerunner is the begining of "phone as a portable computer"
May 16 16:06:16 <dbmoodb> duplicity
May 16 16:06:20 <AzalynHD> what?
May 16 16:06:27 <dbmoodb> -- gpg it and then open it later
May 16 16:06:27 <AzalynHD> ssh would run fine on it
May 16 16:06:35 <AzalynHD> ...
May 16 16:06:38 <dbmoodb> well i would rather be at full speed
May 16 16:06:49 <abraxa__> We all would :)
May 16 16:07:03 <SpeedEvil> dbmoodb: We all would like it to have the latest shiny hardware in.
May 16 16:07:06 <raster> SpeedEvil:  i know. :)
May 16 16:07:20 <rwhitby> I want dull hardware and shiny software ...
May 16 16:07:20 <SpeedEvil> dbmoodb: for various reasons, we can't have this - cost, availability, openness, ...
May 16 16:07:22 <raster> dbmoodb: it is definitely usb1.1
May 16 16:07:25 <dbmoodb> k
May 16 16:07:25 <AzalynHD> with usb2.0 though.. you could do a usb gpu :)
May 16 16:07:32 <AzalynHD> with an external monitor
May 16 16:07:39 <dbmoodb> which is what i was saying
May 16 16:07:40 <AzalynHD> the phone could be docked and 'become' a pc
May 16 16:07:47 <dbmoodb> !docked
May 16 16:07:48 <dbmoodb> no no n on on o no no 
May 16 16:07:54 <dbmoodb> we don't need to dock
May 16 16:07:56 <raster> AzalynHD:  in theory 54mbit - in practice u likely will see 10mbit... is usb1.1 speeds anyway
May 16 16:08:01 <dbmoodb> just walk into the room
May 16 16:08:21 <raster> unknown_lamer: did try. also it was slower than memcpy()
May 16 16:08:24 <dbmoodb> Azalyn try getting any better over usb  2 to a phone
May 16 16:08:54 <AzalynHD> honestly, i won't mind if you guys ditch the gpu for GTA03...
May 16 16:09:03 <AzalynHD> but, it would be nice to have a keyboard :)
May 16 16:09:14 <AzalynHD> since you mentioned the casing will be new.
May 16 16:09:17 <unknown_lamer> Azalyn: gta04 has no gpu ... except the SoC has awesome graphics stuff builtin
May 16 16:09:30 <dbmoodb> ... Azalyn foldable usb ones are $!2
May 16 16:09:32 <dbmoodb> 12*
May 16 16:09:41 <dbmoodb> why do you want a keyboard on it
May 16 16:09:53 <AzalynHD> yes but having it built-in makes it more usable and portable
May 16 16:10:02 <AzalynHD> a hidden keyboard would be nice.
May 16 16:10:06 <AzalynHD> like a sliding one
May 16 16:10:06 <dbmoodb> ........... no
May 16 16:10:13 <dbmoodb> dude plug and play
May 16 16:10:14 <AzalynHD> ................... yes
May 16 16:10:27 <AzalynHD> that doesn't matter
May 16 16:10:31 <dbmoodb> ...
May 16 16:10:34 <AzalynHD> carrying around additional accessories sucks
May 16 16:10:38 <AzalynHD> especially a keyboard
May 16 16:10:42 <dbmoodb> ... the future is touch
May 16 16:10:44 <raster> AzalynHD: kbd is not happening. not for gta03
May 16 16:10:57 <AzalynHD> i'd rather carry a usb camera than a usb keyboard around.
May 16 16:11:09 <SpeedEvil> Camera is _trivial_ to integrate
May 16 16:11:14 <broedge> AzalynHD yea or the BT ones? i prefer strokes
May 16 16:11:14 <raster> unknown_lamer: the 6400 has good gfx. not awesome. the 6410 tho - on paper, looks much more awesome.
May 16 16:11:17 <broedge> those thumbboards make freakish orthopedia, better learn to play the trombone
May 16 16:11:17 <SpeedEvil> It's a 10m*10mm package at most
May 16 16:11:22 <SpeedEvil> with a hole in the case
May 16 16:11:23 <AzalynHD> raster: is gta03 just going to be removing stuff, or is anything actually being added... :|
May 16 16:12:05 <dbmoodb> Azalyn they are putting windows back on it like with the olpc
May 16 16:12:07 <AzalynHD> and the future is SO not touch. no touchscreen in the world will ever beat out a blackberry keyboard.
May 16 16:12:09 <unknown_lamer> raster: aren't they pin compatible?
May 16 16:12:23 <raster> AzalynHD:  new case, add camera. remove glamo, replace gsm+gprs with gsm+edge
May 16 16:12:23 <dbmoodb> you can never have enough of a good thing
May 16 16:12:23 <dbmoodb> Azalyn want to make a bet
May 16 16:12:26 <AzalynHD> if you want it to be portable, make it a slider keyboard..
May 16 16:12:32 <raster> unknown_lamer: they claim to be
May 16 16:12:37 <dbmoodb> .... usb keyboard ...
May 16 16:12:50 <unknown_lamer> raster: you should push to get rid of the useless mpswhatever and use a 6410 instead :-)
May 16 16:12:52 <raster> unknown_lamer: but right now no specs on the 3d chip as to how to program it exactly and if we can even do open drivers
May 16 16:13:01 <dbmoodb> Azalyn what is the diff you are loosing screen to a keyboard that could be external
May 16 16:13:11 <raster> unknown_lamer: mps?
May 16 16:13:12 <AzalynHD> usb keyboards are the fail. i'll use them for my gta02 when i get it since i won't have a choice.
May 16 16:13:13 <summatusmentis> raster: I thought gta03 was not happening?
May 16 16:13:18 <unknown_lamer> raster: the mpu 
May 16 16:13:20 <AzalynHD> no you're not losing screen
May 16 16:13:21 <raster> summatusmentis:  its back on now.
May 16 16:13:22 <SpeedEvil> Azalyn: BT keyboard
May 16 16:13:27 <mjr> bt keyboard > usb keyboard
May 16 16:13:28 <AzalynHD> you don't understand what a slider is.
May 16 16:13:37 <dbmoodb> i do
May 16 16:13:39 <summatusmentis> raster: why? why was it ever off in the first place?
May 16 16:13:43 <SpeedEvil> Azalyn: sliders have horrid packaging implications.
May 16 16:13:48 <raster> unknown_lamer: oh that - thats been axed - or was, then gta04 went onto "deep freeze" mode and will now be positponed to make room for gta03
May 16 16:13:53 <AzalynHD> http://www.cellphones.ca/news/upload/ultra_smart_f700_1.jpg
May 16 16:13:56 <raster> (again)
May 16 16:14:15 <raster> AzalynHD: no kbd happening for gta03.
May 16 16:14:15 <AzalynHD> SpeedEvil: packaging?
May 16 16:14:17 * mjr wants gta04 :I
May 16 16:14:21 <AzalynHD> raster: yeah i know.
May 16 16:14:30 <AzalynHD> i'm just debating the value of it with dbmoodb.
May 16 16:14:40 <raster> unknown_lamer:  and actually i suggested putting in a 2nd 6400 instead of an mpu
May 16 16:14:42 <unknown_lamer> raster: ah ... the gta04 looked nice except for that. Please tell me the 03 is going to have a 6400 or 6410 at least
May 16 16:14:47 * summatusmentis wants a Zaurus 3200 made smaller, and with CDMA :)
May 16 16:14:48 <raster> hell if we were put9otng in 2 cpus - make it 2 6400's
May 16 16:14:50 <unknown_lamer> raster: ha I noticed the ridiculous diagram 
May 16 16:14:53 <dbmoodb> Azalyn the future is mind body interface
May 16 16:15:09 <dbmoodb> -- eye patch hearing air bt head set etc.
May 16 16:15:12 <raster> when in full-power mode devote 1 6400 to run a separate linux instance and be a dedicated "software gpu"
May 16 16:15:12 <raster> :)
May 16 16:15:13 * XorA still advocates a raster in every device
May 16 16:15:18 <unknown_lamer> raster: but oh no the 6400 uses a few mW in low power instead of a few uW
May 16 16:15:26 <raster> and if u dont need the crazy software gpu
May 16 16:15:26 <AzalynHD> dbmoodb: ok.. :|
May 16 16:15:31 <raster> use the other linux os to run anything u like
May 16 16:15:38 <dbmoodb> you know they can do this stuff today
May 16 16:15:38 <raster> that 6400 has no perpipherals attached
May 16 16:15:40 <raster> except lcd
May 16 16:15:41 <dbmoodb> and you can buy it 
May 16 16:15:46 <AzalynHD> you laugh but i agree with that.. but i still don't think touch will beat the blackberry. :)
May 16 16:15:50 <raster> and a interrupt line to the "main" 6400
May 16 16:16:00 <raster> so it can come up and down ultra-fast
May 16 16:16:01 <AzalynHD> i like sliders because it's like the best of both worlds
May 16 16:16:02 <dbmoodb> ................ if i think it does how that no the win ?
May 16 16:16:05 * mwester is rather intruiged by the dual-cpu idea....
May 16 16:16:10 <AzalynHD> or dual-flip phones like the samsung ones.
May 16 16:16:18 <dbmoodb> snap
May 16 16:16:20 <raster> it woudlnt be an smp system
May 16 16:16:24 <dbmoodb> --- they crap
May 16 16:16:25 <raster> as u dont have cache coherency
May 16 16:16:25 <AzalynHD> with dual cpu's you could dedicate one to software rendering
May 16 16:16:26 <dbmoodb> crack*
May 16 16:16:28 <raster> but run 1 linux kernels
May 16 16:16:32 <AzalynHD> would be neat
May 16 16:16:37 <raster> and one just is brought up as a slave buy the main one
May 16 16:16:39 <dbmoodb> next phone is really an eee 
May 16 16:16:41 <raster> could lead to interesting possibilities
May 16 16:16:48 <raster> an soc chip is not that costly as such
May 16 16:16:54 <raster> the problem is we'd need a 2nd pmu too
May 16 16:17:00 <raster> and it's eat up board space
May 16 16:17:06 <SpeedEvil> raster: and DRAM
May 16 16:17:11 <raster> yeah
May 16 16:17:17 <roh> and power.
May 16 16:17:19 <raster> tho the first 16m of the 6400 is dual-ported
May 16 16:17:25 <raster> as such...
May 16 16:17:33 <raster> i was wonderign if we can hook another 6400 to the first 16m
May 16 16:17:42 <raster> its an i9nterestign idea
May 16 16:17:43 <mwester> ooh
May 16 16:17:45 <roh> i'd rather want to have 200h standby than 3d ;)
May 16 16:17:56 <raster> roh:  just keep it suspended most of the time
May 16 16:18:00 <dbmoodb> how much is a graphics card an old one ?
May 16 16:18:03 <raster> it doesnt have to run @ full power
May 16 16:18:08 <dbmoodb> we could hack some
May 16 16:18:13 <raster> when asleep its asleep too
May 16 16:18:19 <raster> so u wont suffer too badly
May 16 16:18:41 <roh> raster thats only part of it. also the power-usage in regular 'is clocked, gets used' needs to get down.
May 16 16:18:44 <raster> but the mpu ewas another 16bit soc anyway
May 16 16:18:45 <raster> as such
May 16 16:19:05 <raster> roh:  sure - but thats only when u have it on
May 16 16:19:17 <roh> raster e.g. on my notebook that ati radeon eats more than 30% of the total power consumption alone. in idle (2d only, blitting a bit)
May 16 16:19:19 <raster> but it does solve the open gpu problem
May 16 16:19:55 <raster> it can dynclock itself probably too
May 16 16:19:57 <roh> raster its on _lots_ of time. everytime you log a gps coord. every time you answer a jabber message.
May 16 16:19:57 <raster> as much as it likes
May 16 16:20:36 <roh> raster but yeah.. lets wait and see what the soc vendors come up with next... could be hell freezes over and its not all crap in the next gen ;)
May 16 16:20:47 <raster> who knows
May 16 16:20:47 <raster> :)
May 16 16:21:10 <raster> i woudl love something that doesnt suck
May 16 16:21:12 <raster> anc is open
May 16 16:21:18 <raster> doesn thave to be major top of the line
May 16 16:21:24 <raster> but mid-to-high
May 16 16:21:27 <SpeedEvil> Low power too.
May 16 16:21:42 <XorA> raster: time to line all sales and marketing guys against the wall and shoot the lot of them
May 16 16:21:45 <raster> the 6410 seems to fit the bill - on paper
May 16 16:21:48 <roh> btw.. my x1600 in my t60p doesnt suck as hard anymore.. xorg-driver-ati (free driver which uses atombios) does work better and better every week i recompile the git tree of it and mesa/drm
May 16 16:21:49 <raster> except its open status is unknown
May 16 16:21:53 <XorA> once the dept whos job it is to invent crap is gone
May 16 16:21:53 <AzalynHD> which are the vendors that are known to do open designs?
May 16 16:22:00 * mwester is in sales, and now fears for his life...
May 16 16:22:20 <roh> so it took less than a year for getting more usable graphics drivers by only released documentation
May 16 16:22:22 * rwhitby ponders a salesman who also hacks kernel code ...
May 16 16:22:36 <roh> more usable than fglrx or any other binary driver ive seen or used
May 16 16:22:45 <unknown_lamer> roh: oh thank god for AMD I was geting worried there that I'd have to stockpile radeon 9100s
May 16 16:22:51 * mwester notes that there are technical folks in sales whos job it is to keep salespeople honest.
May 16 16:23:14 <roh> unknown_lamer yeah.. now nvidia is in serious trouble
May 16 16:23:34 <roh> the can't do that step that intel and now amd took. they still have too much sgi IP in there
May 16 16:24:12 <XorA> a working ATI, I never thought Id ever hear about one of them
May 16 16:24:14 <AzalynHD> well.. even opening all docs that isn't related to SGI IP would be fine.
May 16 16:24:14 <unknown_lamer> roh: doubtful since they have the OMGGAMEZ crowd or something ... unless things have changed (which maybe ... I stopped caring when everything because closed / well then bzflag runs at 76fps @ 1920x1200 so I;m happy)
May 16 16:24:31 <AzalynHD> besides, i honestly think nvidia is bullshitting, i doubt they ever even *asked* sgi.
May 16 16:24:40 <AzalynHD> SGI has supported opensource projects before.
May 16 16:24:45 <AzalynHD> and they use linux.
May 16 16:25:15 <AzalynHD> of course... SGI hates nvidia for the many employees that left SGI to work for nvidia... at least from what i heard... :|
May 16 16:25:25 <AzalynHD> there's supposedly this grudge between the two.
May 16 16:26:05 <mjr> personally I'm not all too convinced nvidia will be in too much trouble for being the most closed contender around
May 16 16:26:16 <mjr> I wish they were
May 16 16:26:46 <AzalynHD> and given that SGI was on it's death throws last i heard, and is using ATI GPU's in their machines... the AMD/ATI open-sourcing is actually a GOOD thing for SGI, especially since any damage done to nvidia might help SGI a bundle.
May 16 16:27:24 <mjr> hasn't sgi been dying for years on end though?
May 16 16:27:34 <roh> well.. lets wait. but the gain in stability alone may get even more people to want free drivers.
May 16 16:27:35 <mjr> *shrug*
May 16 16:27:39 <AzalynHD> yeah, i think they emerged from chapter 11 recently though.
May 16 16:27:45 <emilis_info> what is sgi selling today?
May 16 16:27:46 <AzalynHD> which was some good news at least
May 16 16:27:48 <AzalynHD> no more debt
May 16 16:27:54 <roh> mjr them dying was the reason for nvidia being founded at all
May 16 16:28:01 <AzalynHD> emilis_info: the same old crap unfortunately
May 16 16:28:32 <AzalynHD> I don't understand why SGI didn't attack the mass market IT industry...
May 16 16:28:48 <XorA> Azalyn: sales and marketing guys :-)
May 16 16:28:49 <AzalynHD> given all the hoopla about 3D these days, SGI could have been bigger than IBM.
May 16 16:29:06 <unknown_lamer> Symbolics too :-( They had fancier 3D a few years before SGI
May 16 16:29:30 <AzalynHD> they were too attached to the specialization sector, they didn't realize that *everything* was going mass-market.
May 16 16:29:38 <unknown_lamer> but SGI and Symbolics suffered similar fates -- turns out you can't make your own hardware (processors and all) when the commodity hardware hits a certain point
May 16 16:29:52 <unknown_lamer> one day it was like oops intel has lots of money now CRUSH ALL OTHERS
May 16 16:29:53 <AzalynHD> and that the age of the 30 thousand dollar computer was starting to fade.
May 16 16:30:27 <AzalynHD> unknown_lamer: yeah but POWER/PowerPC and SPARC survived.
May 16 16:30:32 <AzalynHD> so that wasn't the problem
May 16 16:30:40 <AzalynHD> see how Sun reinvented SPARC with the T1
May 16 16:30:51 <AzalynHD> with the whole energy-efficiency thing for cost-savings.
May 16 16:31:10 <unknown_lamer> Azalyn: IBM is the only reason power lived
May 16 16:31:29 <unknown_lamer> Azalyn: and I bet sparc only lived by chance ... Sun held out the longest
May 16 16:31:41 <unknown_lamer> damn capitalism we should all form worker coops and live happily ever after not caring about profit
May 16 16:31:50 <AzalynHD> MIPS is one of the most powerful architectures out there even to this day, there's a lot of options for them to revamp it, but now no one has the money for that.
May 16 16:31:56 <AzalynHD> So it's only going to stay in embeded.
May 16 16:32:51 <AzalynHD> last i heard they couldn't make it faster because they had reached too high a transistor count, they'd have to make a new core microarchitecture.
May 16 16:33:02 <unknown_lamer> hrm I need to figure out how to package clisp now
May 16 16:33:16 <AzalynHD> It's a shame because I like SGI.
May 16 16:33:19 <unknown_lamer> there is a terrible problem -- the last build stage requires that you run the compiled base lisp system
May 16 16:33:32 <AzalynHD> And I think it's a shame that RISC lost out to those rich x86 hustlers.
May 16 16:33:55 <AzalynHD> I would love to see a revival. heh
May 16 16:33:57 <unknown_lamer> I can manually build packages but ... no automated buildhost unless there is a standard way to transfer stuff over to an emulator, run code there, and then suck it back over
May 16 16:34:06 <AzalynHD> SGI could do well to learn from Apple.
May 16 16:34:16 <roh> risc didnt loose
May 16 16:34:32 <roh> but it was the same as wrong as cisc the truth is somewhere in the grey middle
May 16 16:34:51 <AzalynHD> And I think the SGI brand name still carries enough weight to totally kill Apple in graphic design workstations if SGI would just go mass-market already and stop trying to rebuild the specialized sector.
May 16 16:35:02 <roh> and all cpus we use today in desktoĂops, servers or notebooks are ri cores with some 'microcode' anyways
May 16 16:35:09 <AzalynHD> yes i know
May 16 16:35:17 <roh> so its cisc only from the microcode-api outside up
May 16 16:35:20 <AzalynHD> they do like a cisc->risc translation
May 16 16:35:37 <AzalynHD> AMD opterons usually allow you to code to the risc core directly
May 16 16:35:41 <roh> partial. some cisc commands are really there in hw (because its easy, and faszer that way)
May 16 16:35:43 <AzalynHD> k8-risc it's called i think
May 16 16:36:16 <AzalynHD> but with AMD64, didn't AMD deprecate some cisc crap?
May 16 16:36:24 <AzalynHD> to make the 64bit side even more risc-like?
May 16 16:36:59 <roh> a bit. but lots is convention, with optional downward compat.
May 16 16:37:16 <roh> you know.. this win32 world will still take some time to adapt ;)
May 16 16:37:32 <roh> not everybody can just press the recompile-my-universe button that easy
May 16 16:37:34 <emilis_info> hmm
May 16 16:38:06 <AzalynHD> if they ever remove the 32bit support, we could finally have a more elegant arch.
May 16 16:38:25 <roh> eeeh.. nope
May 16 16:38:38 <roh> actually i run most stuff 32bit myself. with reason. its faster that way.
May 16 16:38:40 <AzalynHD> any 32bit support could always be emulated.. i imagine emulating 32bit-x86 in software on top of 64bit-x86 can't be too hard at all.
May 16 16:38:53 <roh> less registers to save on every context switch. less ram usage etc...
May 16 16:39:02 <AzalynHD> roh: i mean once 64bit has taken over.
May 16 16:39:19 <unknown_lamer> hrm I wonder ... has anyone used scratchbox to cross compile for the openmoko distro?
May 16 16:39:28 <roh> 64bit only makes sense when you need that big registers for handling addresses that long, or managing ram >3-4gbyte in ONE app.
May 16 16:39:44 <roh> unknown_lamer no. its not supported afaik
May 16 16:40:33 <unknown_lamer> grr now I'm going to have to manually build clisp packages
May 16 16:41:25 <unknown_lamer> now comes the fun of figuring out how to make bitbake play nicely with something that has been manually built all the way up to the "slurp into an ipk" stage
May 16 16:47:18 <unknown_lamer> yay I have received a patch for ffcall that might fix its problems!
May 16 16:47:47 <unknown_lamer> turns out that arm assembly assumed an armv3 which did not have an instruction cache and so did not flush it when needed
May 16 16:47:58 <unknown_lamer> which explains the random crap being executed when the code looked fine otherwise
May 16 16:53:21 <pyknite>  
May 16 17:07:35 <biertrinken> #lost.no
May 16 17:22:55 <kinneh> what's up with the daylies-images
May 16 17:25:40 <kdean06> kinneh, Julian tells me that everyone is busy working on the Qtopia side of things and that he's not had time to fix the buildhost. 
May 16 17:25:53 <kdean06> So there hasn't been an official daily image since 09 May 2008
May 16 17:28:31 <kinneh> ok thx
May 16 17:49:31 <CM> kinneh: Use ScaredyCat's images instead, from http://buildhost.automated.it/OM2007.2/
May 16 17:55:35 <kinneh> CM: ah nice
May 16 18:08:24 <kdean06> ScaredyCat, Qtopia images working yet? :P
May 16 18:13:52 <mmontour> kdean06: I can't speak for ScaredyCat, but my Qtopia image builds are failing at the moment (packagekit has a problem with libopkg versions, and qtopia-phone gets a do_configure() error)
May 16 18:15:01 <kdean06> mmontour, I bug him every day because I know they don't. :P
May 16 18:15:17 <kdean06> From what I gather, Qtopia is being changed quite a bit so it's failing pretty consistantly.
May 16 18:16:20 <kdean06> Though... I'd really like to know the latest usable Qtopia image someone has around. I've been using Qtopia a lot (It has fast forward on the Media Player!) but there are still glitches from the February image they released.
May 16 18:17:58 <mmontour> I did get one to build maybe a week ago, but I have never been able to actually use a qtopia image. It would boot but sit there saying "please wait" for long periods of time, button presses sometimes wouldn't do anything, etc. 
May 16 18:19:15 <kdean06> Hrm...
May 16 18:42:35 <ScaredyCat> gneh!
May 16 18:42:55 <ScaredyCat> well the qtopia x11 is only supposed to be working on 02 apparently
May 16 18:43:04 <ScaredyCat> but ... well ... bollocks
May 16 18:44:28 * mwester doesn't exactly know the expression, but thinks he gets the general sentiment
May 16 18:45:49 <abraxa__> mwester: It's ok, ScaredyCat is a Brit, they use strange words :)
May 16 18:47:16 <kdean06> "supposed to be working" as in "only one getting attention right now" or "only one that's going to get attention"?
May 16 18:50:31 <mwester> abraxa__:  Yeah, so I've heard.  They mix them up too, I understand they frequently refer to a storage area in an automobile as an article of footwear.
May 16 18:51:10 <abraxa__> rofl
May 16 18:51:48 <ScaredyCat> fecking feckty feck feck...
May 16 18:52:15 <ScaredyCat> at least we don;t have elephants in our automobiles
May 16 18:53:24 <abraxa__> Elephants? *blinks*
May 16 18:54:01 <kdean06> ScaredyCat, And ours don't need boots. :)
May 16 18:54:12 <mwester> My daughter made an observation when she was very young -- she noted that it's a good thing it's an island -- otherwise there would be a terrible mess at the borders with all the automobiles trying to switch to the wrong side of the road.
May 16 18:55:29 <kdean06> mwester, Actually, the term boot is used (of not frequently, enough that it's heard) in parts of the southeast US.
May 16 18:55:54 <ScaredyCat> you're all English anyway
May 16 18:58:11 <kdean06> ScaredyCat, Are you a communist now? What is this "English" thing you claim "we" are? 
May 16 18:58:14 <kdean06> ;)
May 16 18:58:27 <kdean06> "Nonsense!" said Alice, very loudly and decidedly, and the Queen was silent."
May 16 19:01:17 <ScaredyCat> yeah, I'm a commie, I believe in free healthcare
May 16 19:02:28 <kdean06> O-o
May 16 19:13:49 <kinneh> suff like: JFFS2 warning: (853) jffs2_do_read_inode_internal: Truncating ino #4518 to 122988 bytes failed because it only had 102400 bytes to start with!
May 16 19:13:55 <kinneh> is not good right ?
May 16 19:14:18 <kinneh> running latest ScaredyCat image and x wont still start
May 16 19:14:47 <ScaredyCat> !
May 16 19:14:49 <ScaredyCat> wtf
May 16 19:15:02 <mmontour> How old is your u-boot?
May 16 19:15:15 <ScaredyCat> did you nand erase rootfs first?
May 16 19:16:35 <balrog-k1n> who needs the stinking x anyway
May 16 19:17:38 <kinneh> ScaredyCat: do I still need that, I'll try and report back
May 16 19:18:02 <ScaredyCat> well, it sounds like somethigns screwy
May 16 19:18:03 <abraxa__> kinneh: It's only "still" if you didn't update your u-boot :)
May 16 19:18:26 <ScaredyCat> yes, if you still have the old uboot you still have to do it
May 16 19:18:41 <kinneh> will do that hen
May 16 19:18:50 <kinneh> I have no debugboard :-/
May 16 19:19:04 <kinneh> so I have gta01-default uboot
May 16 19:19:11 <ScaredyCat> then reflash the uImage and then the jffs2
May 16 19:19:29 <kinneh> ok
May 16 19:33:30 <pavelm> Hello, everyone
May 16 19:34:38 <pavelm> ...I played a bit with checkfastcharge script, and it seems to be very useful...
May 16 19:34:55 <pavelm> ...after getting rid of that "are you really really sure" annoyance.
May 16 19:37:34 <vincent_> hi
May 16 19:41:29 <tuxi> hello
May 16 19:45:01 <vincent_> anyone have errors with 'make setup' and 'make openmoko-devel-image' directives today?
May 16 19:46:26 <vincent_> or who can tell me if it is necessary to be root in order to run the setup directive of the MokoMakefile?
May 16 19:49:12 <abraxa__> vincent_: No need to be root
May 16 19:50:22 <mwester> vincent_:  it would be very un-good to run make setup or make <anything> as root.
May 16 19:55:09 <vincent_> indeed
May 16 19:56:24 <vincent_> here's what I get from 'make setup'
May 16 19:56:27 <vincent_> A    trunk/src/target/OM-2007.2/artwork/sounds/ringtone_supertux.wav
May 16 19:56:27 <vincent_> svn: Échec de la requĂȘte REPORT sur '/!svn/vcc/default'
May 16 19:56:27 <vincent_> svn: REPORT de '/!svn/vcc/default': 200 OK (http://svn.openmoko.org)
May 16 19:57:34 <vincent_> well.. says that the REPORT request failed and then ERROR of the makefile procedure
May 16 19:57:51 <cyrilRomain> vincent_: I suspect it is because of your firewall/proxy settings
May 16 19:57:53 <vincent_> i'm behind a proxy but it was working yesterday..
May 16 19:58:11 <vincent_> Cyril c'est français ça...
May 16 19:58:11 <cyrilRomain> vincent_: here 'svn ls http://svn.openmoko.org' works
May 16 19:58:13 <vincent_> well..
May 16 19:59:27 <vincent_> it works for me too
May 16 20:00:49 <vincent_> .. third run of setup today : /
May 16 20:09:12 <pavelm> I tried scaredycat's image from today, but it does not detect MMC card... and my flash is dead so I _need_ mmc card.
May 16 20:14:25 <vincent_> pavelm: excuse me what is mmc (:/)
May 16 20:15:10 <kario> multimedia card
May 16 20:17:57 <Sonicadvance1> soooo....Topic still lying to us then? :D
May 16 20:18:10 <vincent_> still hehe
May 16 20:18:56 <vincent_> but i don't care much, I have my device ready to meet my desires already
May 16 20:19:19 <vincent_> even if it's not the 'new-wifi-awesome' FreeRunner
May 16 20:19:52 <abraxa__> vincent_: And without video bottleneck, lest not forget
May 16 20:20:05 <vincent_> lol my AP is still crappy at home since a lamer had covered all the WEP AP's and still ...
May 16 20:20:09 <vincent_> ho I forgot!
May 16 20:20:31 <vincent_> Those new 'without video bottleneck' features are just awesome, too
May 16 20:20:37 <vincent_> ;)
May 16 20:21:12 <abraxa__> ya :)
May 16 20:22:07 <vincent_> maybe if i'm doing 'awesome' work into the community I could have one for testing one day
May 16 20:22:27 <vincent_> hehe - I keep dreamin'
May 16 20:22:29 <woglinde> wep
May 16 20:22:32 <woglinde> hahaha
May 16 20:22:39 <vincent_> yep WEP
May 16 20:22:42 <vincent_> haha
May 16 20:22:58 <woglinde> you could turn it off
May 16 20:23:04 <woglinde> has the same effect
May 16 20:23:10 <vincent_> somebody in my neighborhood took about 6 months to acheive man-in-the-middle
May 16 20:23:17 <vincent_> agree
May 16 20:23:24 <woglinde> 6 months
May 16 20:23:25 <woglinde> lol
May 16 20:23:26 <vincent_> that is why i'm using WPA2
May 16 20:23:29 <woglinde> what a lamer
May 16 20:23:55 <vincent_> yeah, i't the date that my friend began to get disconnected more frequently from the AP
May 16 20:24:04 <vincent_> and now, using WPA2 I got
May 16 20:24:13 <vincent_> .. authentication then
May 16 20:24:20 <woglinde> why you didnt use it from the beginning?
May 16 20:24:23 <vincent_> .. association then
May 16 20:24:32 <vincent_> (i used it from the beginning and it worked)
May 16 20:25:03 <vincent_> then now I resetted the AP device and now after auth/assoc ...
May 16 20:25:14 <vincent_> NO IP and NO ROUTE TO AP (even static)
May 16 20:25:21 <vincent_> wich means at my sense...
May 16 20:25:39 <vincent_> some lamer trying to hook my association with the AP
May 16 20:26:31 <vincent_> and further no connection for anyone .. resulting in DoS because i'm using some diffie-hellman stuff to exchange informations with my AP
May 16 20:27:41 <vincent_> ho forget it the wifi connection work A1 ... with no encryption at all
May 16 20:27:51 <vincent_> so as I think about it..
May 16 20:28:40 <vincent_> I think I should start to build a level 1 attack against the ugly wifi-sniffer who acts in my neighborhood
May 16 20:29:51 <vincent_> still it's not easy to got undiscovered with a baseball bat and a laptop walking around to find AP's...
May 16 20:29:54 <vincent_> hum
May 16 20:29:55 <Sonicadvance1> ooo, an "ugly" wifi-sniffer? :D
May 16 20:30:04 <vincent_> yeah
May 16 20:30:30 <Sonicadvance1> hehe
May 16 20:30:46 <vincent_> if he is not ugly then I bet he won't be too clean after my passage...
May 16 20:31:28 <Sonicadvance1> oh no
May 16 20:31:39 <vincent_> hahaha I hate those who just not steal wifi connections (that I don't care) but who are causing DoS, trying mim-attacks against neighbors
May 16 20:31:42 <vincent_> ...
May 16 20:31:48 <vincent_> there is only one treatment
May 16 20:32:26 <Sonicadvance1> High Powered sniper rifle?
May 16 20:32:50 <vincent_> clothes line burning !!!!
May 16 20:32:54 <Sonicadvance1> ooo
May 16 20:32:55 <vincent_> Arrrrr
May 16 20:33:41 <vincent_> I still have to find a way to catch him and to be damn sure
May 16 20:34:15 <vincent_> Maybe if there's a Cantenna beside in porch...
May 16 20:34:21 <Sonicadvance1> Protect your AP with an easy WEP password, let him connect, then screw with him? :D
May 16 20:34:35 <vincent_> not bad :)
May 16 20:34:54 <vincent_> medium complexity
May 16 20:35:09 <Sonicadvance1> He IS trying to hack the password though?
May 16 20:35:19 <vincent_> sure he will indeed
May 16 20:35:26 <Sonicadvance1> hehehe
May 16 20:35:28 <zash> triangulation?
May 16 20:35:32 <vincent_> I can even generate traffic for him 
May 16 20:35:49 <Sonicadvance1> hehehe xD
May 16 20:35:55 <vincent_> ya think with wich tool can we triangularize some AP's supplicant?
May 16 20:36:53 <zash> that we need for openmoko!
May 16 20:36:59 <vincent_> because indeed that will be the best choice.. but if he is in passive mode and just sniffing...
May 16 20:37:05 <zash> easy triangulation software
May 16 20:37:14 <vincent_> you're right
May 16 20:37:37 <vincent_> but I won't code for that guy it's getting too complex..
May 16 20:37:45 <vincent_> still prefer Level 1 strike
May 16 20:38:32 <vincent_> that's a good question... if the guy is in monitor mode and that the only thing he is doing is collecting data
May 16 20:38:47 <vincent_> I won't be able to see him with any tool if he is passive
May 16 20:39:03 <zash> sudo do-nuclear-strike $(get-my-position
May 16 20:39:08 <zash> then get in the cellar
May 16 20:39:15 <vincent_> wait no !!!! 
May 16 20:39:19 <Sonicadvance1> But why would he only want to monitor? He should be wanting to get on your network eventually to do something
May 16 20:39:52 <vincent_> you are getting 40 years back when FBI told million of people that a simple phone phreak could start a nuclear war L:D
May 16 20:40:02 <vincent_> .. with a payphone
May 16 20:40:12 <zash> ASUM!
May 16 20:40:20 <vincent_> (wich was way far from payphone that time)
May 16 20:41:41 <vincent_> if the guy is brillant just a bit and that he as a minimum of real motivation (say profit) and that he already got free wireless access (there's an open AP)
May 16 20:42:32 <zash> http://www.ex-parrot.com/~pete/upside-down-ternet.html
May 16 20:42:52 <zash> do it!
May 16 20:43:32 <vincent_> let's assume that this guy for instance wants to charge my credit institution to get things around eBay... Of my Google mail account... Or all of my neighbors FB account... then he could get a piece of our identity without having to dig into our 'ever-more-secured-and-surely-updated' local networks
May 16 20:43:35 <vincent_> wzzthat?
May 16 20:44:13 <vincent_> your'e the man!
May 16 20:44:15 <vincent_> :)
May 16 20:47:49 <vincent_> that is interesting
May 16 20:48:14 <vincent_> definitely something that looks like an honeynet gateway
May 16 20:48:18 <vincent_> and
May 16 20:48:47 <vincent_> I could indeed use that for my first fun-playing game of wireless pnwage
May 16 20:48:54 <vincent_> because
May 16 20:49:19 <vincent_> what I have here is a big - say Ă©norme - personal itch
May 16 20:50:30 <vincent_> with I was even ready to solve with a ye 'olde physical-layer disruption and denial of service against the devices (if found) and the proprietary (if discovered)
May 16 20:51:34 <vincent_> bit of thinking make me think that i'll just masquerade things up the .. hum .. right way I guess héhéhé
May 16 20:56:10 <zash> goatse!
May 16 20:56:41 <zash> gateway that replaces all images with goatse!
May 16 20:56:58 <zash> and other "plesant" imagery
May 16 20:56:59 <SpeedEvil> Too boring.
May 16 20:58:20 <zash> hm, sed some word to something funny
May 16 20:58:25 <emilis_info> there was an article somewhere about rotating all images upside down for wifi stealing neighbour
May 16 20:58:35 <emilis_info> hmm
May 16 20:58:38 <SpeedEvil> zash: sweedish chef filter.
May 16 20:58:42 <zash> emilis_info: posted link above
May 16 20:58:44 <emilis_info> clbuttic?
May 16 20:58:52 <vincent_> http://www.ex-parrot.com/~pete/upside-down-ternet.html
May 16 20:58:57 <emilis_info> hehe
May 16 20:59:04 <vincent_> explained there
May 16 20:59:09 <vincent_> hey
May 16 20:59:22 <emilis_info> :)
May 16 20:59:22 <vincent_> THAT should be part of the next OpenMoko release
May 16 20:59:28 <SpeedEvil> It is.
May 16 20:59:37 <SpeedEvil> Through the magic of turning the phone upside down.
May 16 20:59:46 <zash> swedish chef audio filter
May 16 20:59:51 <SpeedEvil> Ah
May 16 20:59:51 <vincent_> Neighbors' AP stealing GIF smashing utility...
May 16 20:59:53 <SpeedEvil> That too.
May 16 21:00:26 <vincent_> sure, I got to have the new Freerunner then... SOLD! haha
May 16 21:00:55 <zash> but triangulation software /me wants
May 16 21:01:41 <vincent_> yeah to be satellite-independant ?
May 16 21:01:58 <vincent_> you could triangulate with GSM tower d'you think?
May 16 21:02:39 <zash> and/or other known wifi aps
May 16 21:03:39 <vincent_> hehe lets say with USB and bluethooth we could always have some success building external devices
May 16 21:04:41 <vincent_> like big-boosted antenna or just an external 802.11wathever chip stepping aside of the OpenMoko but commanded by it
May 16 21:05:11 <vincent_> everything is possible nowadays!
May 16 21:06:23 <zash> a simple thing that draws a dot at your location on a map with alpha = signal strenght
May 16 21:06:28 <zash> or color
May 16 21:06:35 <vincent_> still.. my setup directive is nearly finished processing
May 16 21:06:45 <vincent_> hum
May 16 21:06:52 <vincent_> yeah that exists
May 16 21:07:00 <vincent_> there's a demo on youtube
May 16 21:07:11 <zash> easy portable to freerunner?
May 16 21:07:40 <SpeedEvil> What's wrong with GPS?
May 16 21:07:57 <zash> huhu
May 16 21:09:51 <vincent_> dunno i'm looking for it
May 16 21:10:10 <zash> why don't i have a freerunner so i can code an app like that
May 16 21:10:44 <vincent_> I got it
May 16 21:10:58 * SpeedEvil passes zash qemu
May 16 21:11:08 <vincent_> TangoGPS on OpenMoko demo version
May 16 21:11:13 <vincent_> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ky-gbF1rgb4&feature=related
May 16 21:11:25 <SpeedEvil> tangoGPS is handy
May 16 21:11:27 <vincent_> hum...
May 16 21:11:37 <vincent_> I think you dont have a freerunner beacause...
May 16 21:11:38 <SpeedEvil> I was using it duct-taped to a GPS window-mount
May 16 21:11:49 <vincent_> The Freerunner phone (with wifi) should have started mass production before May 16. 
May 16 21:11:50 <SpeedEvil> For OSM use.
May 16 21:11:52 <vincent_> ...
May 16 21:12:05 <vincent_> hahaha
May 16 21:12:09 <SpeedEvil> vincent_: 16th working day ends in china in a few hours
May 16 21:12:15 <vincent_> pretty cool
May 16 21:12:28 <vincent_> oh yeah that a news
May 16 21:12:28 <SpeedEvil> IIRC
May 16 21:13:03 <zash> SpeedEvil: i dont feel like downloading qemu + om over gprs
May 16 21:13:09 <vincent_> but I purchase an advanced Neo1973 just to be cool 3 months ago
May 16 21:13:18 <vincent_> hahaha
May 16 21:13:29 <vincent_> with monotone synchronisation :P
May 16 21:13:31 <vincent_> hehehe
May 16 21:13:44 <zash> the 3g net crapped out
May 16 21:14:22 <vincent_> still what is needed next is a free GSM provider woldwide
May 16 21:15:16 <emilis_info> free as in beer?
May 16 21:15:34 <vincent_> hum can you clone your beer?
May 16 21:15:41 <vincent_> if so I guess it's free then
May 16 21:15:47 <vincent_> ;)
May 16 21:16:17 <vincent_> Deubeuliou??
May 16 21:16:20 <vincent_> HAHAHA
May 16 21:16:31 <Deubeuliou> ?
May 16 21:16:42 <vincent_> means W. in french right?
May 16 21:16:43 <Deubeuliou> mmmh ? ^^
May 16 21:16:49 <Deubeuliou> right :)
May 16 21:16:52 <vincent_> like surname of Bush right?
May 16 21:16:54 <vincent_> HAHAHA
May 16 21:16:58 <vincent_> drĂŽle :)
May 16 21:17:02 <zash> city wide free (as in payed-with-taxes) would be nice
May 16 21:17:03 <Deubeuliou> anéfé :p
May 16 21:19:09 <vincent_> Deubeuliou : http://shaowarrior.iquebec.com/avant/   capsule 17 :)
May 16 21:19:37 <vincent_> :( Still...
May 16 21:19:51 <vincent_> A    developers/sameo/patches/ar6k-atheros-2.0/pnp_fixes_2.6.22.5.patch
May 16 21:19:51 <vincent_> A    developers/sameo/patches/ar6k-atheros-2.0/atheros_2_0_sdio_stack.patch
May 16 21:19:51 <vincent_> svn: Échec de la requĂȘte REPORT sur '/!svn/vcc/default'
May 16 21:19:51 <vincent_> svn: REPORT de '/!svn/vcc/default': 200 OK (http://svn.openmoko.org)
May 16 21:19:51 <vincent_> make: *** [setup-openmoko] Erreur 1
May 16 21:19:52 <vincent_> vincent@openmoko-dev:~/moko$ 
May 16 21:19:58 <vincent_> gtg get my son
May 16 21:20:02 <vincent_> cya all!
May 16 21:24:45 <CVirus> lol @ the topic
May 16 21:25:39 <CVirus> no update from steve yet .. hmm
May 16 21:27:28 <mmontour> CVirus: give it a few days and then flip the topic back to "...will be released at some time". 
May 16 21:27:50 <CVirus> mmontour: I'm sure
May 16 21:28:16 * CVirus is frustrated
May 16 21:46:53 <cb22> english tenses for the win :)
May 16 21:48:15 <CVirus> haha
May 16 22:11:21 <Yanroy> hi all
May 16 22:11:30 <Yanroy> I have a quick two-part question...
May 16 22:11:48 <Yanroy> firstly, are the openmoko mailing lists the preferred way of keeping tabs on the project?
May 16 22:11:59 <Yanroy> and secondly, are they archived anywhere online?
May 16 22:12:11 <SpeedEvil> maybe, and yes
May 16 22:12:13 <Yanroy> particularly, I'm interested in being able to get an RSS feed of the posts
May 16 22:12:22 <SpeedEvil> lists..openmoko.org
May 16 22:12:26 <Yanroy> like nabble has for all the lists it archives
May 16 22:12:28 <SpeedEvil> lists.openmoko.org
May 16 22:12:36 <SpeedEvil> I don't think it does RSS
May 16 22:13:03 <Yanroy> I've visited that page before... where's the archive?
May 16 22:13:11 <Yanroy> it seems to only let me sign up when I click a list name
May 16 22:13:22 <Yanroy> nvm...
May 16 22:13:27 <Yanroy> I'm just not very observant
May 16 22:13:36 <Yanroy> still, it's not RSS
May 16 22:13:48 <Yanroy> do you think anyone would object to me having it start archiving on nabble?
May 16 22:14:07 <Yanroy> the only reason I ask is it seems to associate the person who requests the archive with someone connected to the list's management
May 16 22:15:05 <mmontour> The lists are also available on gmane.org
May 16 22:16:29 <mmontour> E.g. http://dir.gmane.org/gmane.comp.handhelds.openmoko.community (with RSS)
May 16 22:18:11 <Yanroy> mmontour: thanks.  that looks good.  do you know the difference between "all messages" and "topics" feeds?
May 16 22:20:38 <mmontour> I think "topics" would be 1 RSS entry for a message+all of its replies, vs. 1 RSS entry for each message, but I don't use RSS (I use the NNTP interface)
May 16 22:25:47 <Yanroy> thank you very much
May 16 22:26:04 <Yanroy> and I look forward to buying a freerunner as soon as they're available :)
May 16 23:10:21 <Yanroy> exit
May 16 23:10:23 <Yanroy> quit
May 16 23:10:53 <CVirus> haha
May 16 23:11:18 <josch> lol
May 16 23:20:52 <Arg0naut> any updates if/when mass production has/will be started?
May 16 23:22:14 <Fluffy> ./motd
May 17 00:16:33 <pyknite> hi
May 17 00:16:33 <pyknite> is there someone?
May 17 00:16:49 <pyknite> i need urgently help :(
May 17 00:17:28 <josch> pyknite, dont ask to ask - just ask
May 17 00:17:32 <pyknite> thx
May 17 00:17:36 <josch> nobody can help you if you do not ask
May 17 00:17:50 <pyknite> i'm working on a arm platform running linux
May 17 00:18:10 <pyknite> I need to add a programm at boot
May 17 00:18:34 <pyknite> but there is no no rc.local
May 17 00:18:39 <pyknite> or something like that
May 17 00:18:47 <balrog-k1n> breath
May 17 00:19:00 <pyknite> :P
May 17 00:19:08 <balrog-k1n> what's init= set to in kernel params?
May 17 00:19:33 <pyknite> ( we are working on a robot... we have the comptetiion tomorrow)
May 17 00:19:43 <josch> lol
May 17 00:19:48 <balrog-k1n> wow
May 17 00:19:53 <pyknite> :P
May 17 00:20:05 <rwhitby> pyknite: is it the openmoko distro?
May 17 00:20:09 <pyknite> no
May 17 00:20:14 <josch> haha
May 17 00:20:16 <Arg0naut> just out of curiosity what competition is it?
May 17 00:20:18 <balrog-k1n> is it equipped with lasers or a turret gun?
May 17 00:20:25 <josch> can it fly?
May 17 00:20:31 <pyknite> but you're the only people i know wich are knowing arm ;)
May 17 00:20:41 <pyknite> Arg0naut: eurobot
May 17 00:20:54 <rwhitby> pyknite: do you realise that most people here will now waste all your remaining time with silly questions? ;-)
May 17 00:21:01 <pyknite> balrog-k1n: yep... laser plan and can shoot balls
May 17 00:21:21 <pyknite> rwhitby: :P
May 17 00:21:22 <josch> so... ike prism tank in c&c ?
May 17 00:21:24 <rwhitby> pyknite: try putting a new startup script in /etc/init.d/ and make sure it is symlinked into /etc/rcX.d/
May 17 00:21:36 <rwhitby> (where 'X' is the run-level)
May 17 00:21:41 <pyknite> oki
May 17 00:21:44 <pyknite> thx
May 17 00:21:47 <josch> yeah - just use init
May 17 00:22:29 <rwhitby> or if you want to override the normal init sequence with a single stand-alone master executable, then use init= on the kernel cmdline (but make sure it's statically linked)
May 17 00:23:19 <pyknite> how can i simlink into /etc/rcX.d ?
May 17 00:23:26 <pyknite> with ln?
May 17 00:23:32 <josch> man ln
May 17 00:23:40 <rwhitby> ln -s
May 17 00:23:40 <josch> ln -s source target
May 17 00:23:54 <pyknite> oki thx
May 17 00:23:57 <rwhitby> (and don't use 'X' for 'X' - use the correct number
May 17 00:24:04 <pyknite> rwhitby: yep
May 17 00:25:37 <pyknite>  
May 17 00:26:54 <pyknite> if i type runlevel and got "N 5" i need to simlynk in rc5.d?
May 17 00:27:22 <josch> you have to add it to the runlevel you with it to be started
May 17 00:27:42 <josch> if runlevel 5 is your normal one and you want to execute it as the last item add it there
May 17 00:27:53 <pyknite> oki thy
May 17 00:27:57 <pyknite> -y +x
May 17 00:28:08 <josch> oh and another thing
May 17 00:28:30 <josch> you can control the order in which init executes the scripts by naming them in the right way
May 17 00:28:51 <josch> name it S99myapp and it will be executed as the alst item
May 17 00:29:02 <pyknite> ok
May 17 00:29:15 <pyknite> i try...
May 17 00:29:36 <pyknite> i hope it work... :P otherwise, i will not sleep a lot this night :D
May 17 00:30:19 <josch> pyknite, just supply us with pixx for our help
May 17 00:31:43 <pyknite> no pix...
May 17 00:31:53 <pyknite> i just have a term ;)
May 17 00:32:20 <pyknite> and not on ssh, in debug mode ;)
May 17 00:33:23 <josch> of the device!!
May 17 00:33:32 <josch> we want to see the prism tank in action!
May 17 00:33:45 <josch> shooting some dinosaurs and such things
May 17 00:33:51 <pyknite> hum... doesn't work :(
May 17 00:37:49 <pyknite> shit, he doesn't execute my scipt :(
May 17 00:38:52 <josch> chmod +x
May 17 00:39:15 <pyknite> hum... i'm to tired...i'have forget it
May 17 00:39:29 <josch> you have to make your script executeable
May 17 00:40:03 <josch> can you start your script by typing /etc/rcX.d/myapp ?
May 17 00:40:09 <josch> if you can, so can init
May 17 00:41:57 <pyknite> hope it work this time ;) ( and again, thx for your help ;) )
May 17 00:42:13 <josch> np
May 17 00:42:18 <josch> i love laser tanks
May 17 00:43:17 <pyknite> hum... it's not a laser tank (sry)... i say it use a laser plan
May 17 00:43:35 <josch> but, but...
May 17 00:43:36 <josch> .(
May 17 00:44:14 <pyknite> arghhhh.... doesnt work even with chmod +x
May 17 00:44:26 <josch> but you can execute it manually?
May 17 00:44:33 * pyknite is going insane :(
May 17 00:45:14 <pyknite> yep can execute manually
May 17 00:45:27 <pyknite> my file is in /etc/init.d/
May 17 00:45:35 <josch> via /etc/rcx.d ?
May 17 00:46:40 <balrog-k1n> are there other files in /etc/init.d/ that you know get executed?
May 17 00:46:42 <pyknite> and i made: ln -s myfile /etc/rc5.d/S99myfile
May 17 00:46:51 <pyknite> balrog-k1n: yes
May 17 00:46:53 <balrog-k1n> and is there a self-destruct function in the robot?
May 17 00:47:10 <josch> wrong question
May 17 00:47:11 <pyknite> when i go in /etc/rc5.d and type ls i can see the file
May 17 00:47:23 <josch> are there self destruct explosives in the robot?
May 17 00:47:37 <pyknite> josch: nope :(
May 17 00:47:43 <josch> ah!
May 17 00:47:48 <balrog-k1n> yeah, that's that i wondering
May 17 00:48:01 <balrog-k1n> pyknite: you can run your script from any other script
May 17 00:48:08 <balrog-k1n> if you know one of them works
May 17 00:48:14 <pyknite> yep why not
May 17 00:48:17 <josch> pyknite, nope there are no explosives or no you cant execute it manually from /etc/rcX.d ?
May 17 00:48:18 <balrog-k1n> it'll be hack but it probably doesn't matter
May 17 00:48:41 <balrog-k1n> damn i completely can't type
May 17 00:49:22 <pyknite> josch: both
May 17 00:49:27 <josch> ha
May 17 00:49:30 <pyknite> :P
May 17 00:49:31 <josch> there your problem lies
May 17 00:49:50 <josch> as long as you cannot execute it manually from rcX.d init.d cant do wither
May 17 00:49:52 <josch> either
May 17 00:49:58 <pyknite> ok
May 17 00:50:12 <josch> you sure you linked correctly?
May 17 00:50:33 <josch> give us ls -lha /etc/rcX.d/S99myfile
May 17 00:50:44 <pyknite> when i type ls in etc/rc5.d i see the file, but when i try for example to edit, he say that the file doesnt exist
May 17 00:51:02 <josch> then you linked wrong
May 17 00:51:03 <balrog-k1n> you should use an absolute path to make the symlink in this case
May 17 00:51:07 <josch> give us ls -lha /etc/rcX.d/S99myfile
May 17 00:51:16 <josch> then we will see where the link points to
May 17 00:52:22 <pyknite> oki 2 sec... i'm rebboting 
May 17 00:52:28 <balrog-k1n> what arm board does it use?
May 17 00:52:50 <pyknite> colibri from toradex
May 17 00:53:50 <pyknite> toradex.com
May 17 00:54:00 * balrog-k1n has never played with this one
May 17 00:54:57 <pyknite> ( the embedded department of my school use that)
May 17 00:56:24 <pyknite> ahhh it work... but i execute it from an other script wich is executed at boot ;)
May 17 00:57:26 <balrog-k1n> how big are they?
May 17 00:57:35 <balrog-k1n> also what's the max speed they can move at?
May 17 00:57:46 * balrog-k1n wonders if there's risk that the robots tomorrow turn against their creators and take over the event and then the rest of the world
May 17 00:58:33 * pyknite says: our robot is not a cylon :P
May 17 00:59:46 <mwester> Maximillion?
May 17 01:10:06 <social_gentoo> the_best of openmoko is the laser pointer....
May 17 01:13:14 <etinin> that pen can be bought for $2 on ebay
May 17 01:13:26 <social_gentoo> great
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Sat May 17 02:59:57 2008