**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Mon Jun 02 02:59:56 2008 Jun 02 03:20:03 openmoko: 03julian_chu 07org.openmoko.asu.dev * rdbed72731b85 10/packages/packagekit/ (4 files in 2 dirs): [packagekit] Add 2 patched for packagekit. Jun 02 03:58:39 re: official topic. That's OK. I'm still waiting for GSM here in northern BC. I'm aiming for a freerunner or the model after it. Jun 02 03:59:25 oops. BC == a province in Canada. N.A. is largely cdma. Jun 02 04:00:04 Folks know BC, I think. Jun 02 04:00:47 maybe :-), dunno where everyone's from here. Lots of names and not much traffic... Jun 02 04:01:10 Was hoping to read discussions from ppl who owned one. Jun 02 04:01:33 If you ask specific questions about OM, you'll usually get responses. Jun 02 04:01:51 Thx rtm Jun 02 04:02:17 gemlog: I have a neo1973, but not a Freerunner (yet). Jun 02 04:02:42 This is prolly blindingly obvious, but how do you get a shell on one from a box? Jun 02 04:03:07 Without wifi in the freerunner I mean. Jun 02 04:03:45 gemlog: You can get to the shell either by setting up USB networking, ans ssh'ing in, or by running the terminal application. Jun 02 04:04:08 ooops ans = and. Jun 02 04:04:24 I've never ssh'd via usb. didn't know one could do it (but serial, why not I guess). Jun 02 04:04:29 thanks Jun 02 04:04:59 How far along are they on the camera idea? Jun 02 04:05:25 There are instructions for setting up USB networking on the Wiki. It is trivial to do so if the machine you are connecting it to is running linux. Jun 02 04:05:51 I've been all linux since. Jun 02 04:06:10 '96 I guess. Jun 02 04:06:27 Refugee amigoid. Jun 02 04:06:30 The freerunner has no camera. As far as I know, no decision has been made about adding a camera to a model appearing after the Freerunner. Jun 02 04:06:52 They mention a cam on the wiki for after. Jun 02 04:07:30 A ***LOT*** of the stuff on the WIki does not reflect official Openmoko decisions. Jun 02 04:08:08 Much of it is random musings, often fairly uninformed, from users. Jun 02 04:08:28 I read the tech note on the idea of walkie talkie. makes sense. I just now thought of the gnu radio project with programable chips, so you could have ad hoc freqs to play with. Jun 02 04:08:43 I mean, makes sense why it's not doable Jun 02 04:10:26 this http://www.gnu.org/software/gnuradio/ Jun 02 04:11:19 Not so much programmable chips really, but playing with dsp etc. Jun 02 04:11:51 That could make that notion actually viable. Jun 02 04:13:42 gemlog: Do you think you can do that sort of software phone with a Freerunner? Jun 02 04:14:07 Have you been around for a long time rtm? I also wondered about all the realestate going to a lanyard loopl Jun 02 04:14:27 no. no I don't. but there is a future model. Jun 02 04:14:53 like I said, it just occurred to me while we were chatting here. Jun 02 04:15:06 gemlog: I'm not sure I can claim to have been around for a long time - this IRC channel often has people on it who know far, far more about the project than I do. Jun 02 04:15:13 Maybe no one thought of it yet. Jun 02 04:15:59 sure, but you are way ahead of me. I've just been reading the website for a year or so. don't even own one. that's why I'm here now :-) Jun 02 04:16:20 gemlog: I think odd projects like that are really the only hope for Openmoko. I think it should explicitly embrace the nerd market, to the exclusion of all others. I doubt OM will ever make a phone suitable for the general population. Jun 02 04:16:37 rtm: for what reason? Jun 02 04:16:45 au contraire. I think they will/nearly have. Jun 02 04:17:00 gsm + good pim == they win, no? Jun 02 04:17:21 that's like saying pcs will never work because people want packaged systems Jun 02 04:17:26 doc: Yes, but as far as I can tell, they don't have a good PIM yet. Jun 02 04:17:37 ah Jun 02 04:17:42 rtm: it's early days yet Jun 02 04:17:44 give it time Jun 02 04:18:02 can leaverage net pims (google, rtm, et alia) Jun 02 04:18:51 doc: I hope you're right, but the first OM phone was released nearly a year ago, and there is still no truely usable software stack for OM. Jun 02 04:19:22 was gtk vs qt an 'oops'? Jun 02 04:19:29 just asking, write both. Jun 02 04:19:54 I think qt was a 'things are going slow, lets blame our current gui stack' Jun 02 04:20:04 and qtopia had a lot of stuff on their side Jun 02 04:20:44 they have a lot of 'half stuff' too. not quite baked. and I say that as a qt user mostly. Jun 02 04:20:52 It's hard to see their abandonment of the gtk applications as a sign things are sailing along smoothly. Jun 02 04:21:06 say more rtm. Jun 02 04:21:15 abandonment Jun 02 04:21:35 Don't get me wrong - I've had lots of fun with my neo, and plan to buy a Freerunner the minute it is available for sale. Jun 02 04:21:42 ok Jun 02 04:21:52 gemlog: Sorry about my spelling. Jun 02 04:21:55 its nothing to do with the fact that its qt, its qtopia's software stack Jun 02 04:22:03 spelling. I've heard of it. Jun 02 04:22:04 I dislike qt with a passion, but that has nothing to do with it Jun 02 04:22:14 I can't say much, having not tried qtopia but Jun 02 04:22:20 I like the signal slots thing. Jun 02 04:23:03 for coding I mean. I just like the idea. Jun 02 04:23:24 paradigm. (hate that word) Jun 02 04:23:38 I mean I didn't see a problem with the old gui stack, but I never wrote any applications with it Jun 02 04:23:45 just seems like a lot of wasted code and time Jun 02 04:23:46 I just think that OM should concentrate on making odd phones which would appeal to hobbiest nerds, system managers who must manage machines remotely, people super-paranoid about privacy, etc. Jun 02 04:24:04 small market rtm... Jun 02 04:24:07 very small Jun 02 04:24:21 than again, I hope people will revive the old om gtk codebase Jun 02 04:24:24 Maybe not too small world-wide. Jun 02 04:24:45 still not what a mnfctr is looking for though. Jun 02 04:25:08 I think it can be both Jun 02 04:25:15 the lack of 3G has really killed it but Jun 02 04:25:24 they are after something that appeals to us geeks and is hackable, but still usable by 'normal' ppl Jun 02 04:25:34 this is doable Jun 02 04:25:42 rtm in fairness, that was always a stop-gap developer release Jun 02 04:25:55 I have like 20 families on linux myself. all happy. Jun 02 04:26:19 linux on a phone and linux on a desktop are totally different things Jun 02 04:26:26 gemlog: Well, I don't think a company which can't produce a workable software stack for basic phone functions, and which is forced to use non-state-of-the-art hardware, should have delusions of competing with Nokia and APple. Jun 02 04:26:30 My biz clients are 50/50 shops I must say. Jun 02 04:26:31 it can be said on a phone its easier, a lot less hardware to support Jun 02 04:26:45 this is why apple has it pretty easy Jun 02 04:26:46 * ljp thinks they should have gone with the already working qtopia Jun 02 04:27:06 ljp: they didn't? Jun 02 04:27:08 @patoh, true. limited h/w makes it easy. ask apple. Jun 02 04:27:44 patoh: not really. they used qtopia x11 which was experimental at best Jun 02 04:27:46 @lpj I'm new here, but that was the idea I was exploring. dunno yet. maybe there are good reasons. Jun 02 04:27:51 They should go after the markets Apple and Nokia don't care about, and price their products with margins sufficient to be viable with small volumes. Jun 02 04:28:03 ljp: but wasn't it required? didn't the other qtopia use fbdev? Jun 02 04:28:16 yes, whats wrong with fb? Jun 02 04:28:17 400 usd/cad/aus is not out of this world. It's ok. Jun 02 04:28:48 ljp: no idea, I assume there is something better about x11 but if it was selected Jun 02 04:28:56 the experimental bit, sounds dodgy but Jun 02 04:29:09 My first palm pilot killed me. Zaurus was no better. And NO PHONE! Jun 02 04:29:17 doc: Don't you find it somewhat ominous that OM's *second* product is also shipping with a stop-gap developer release? Jun 02 04:29:19 nothng better abut x11 really Jun 02 04:29:38 ljp: whats the point then? Jun 02 04:29:56 they wanted 'multi toolkit'. Jun 02 04:30:03 early and often is good. If the h/w is firm why not ship and find the bugs? Jun 02 04:30:31 ljp: well a lot of work has been put into the gtk stuff Jun 02 04:30:58 but I see you point, why not just pick a toolkit, if they don't think gtk is up for the job (another story which I don't agree with), why not ditch it Jun 02 04:31:58 probably for compromise Jun 02 04:32:03 patoh: why do you think they are deprecating gtk? Jun 02 04:32:59 because qtopia is there and ready (shomewhat), and the om plantform (gtk ui wise) isn't Jun 02 04:33:04 and people are getting antsy Jun 02 04:33:26 no, I mean what signs do you have that they are doing so, not reasons for the doing of it. Jun 02 04:33:31 except they arent using the 'mostly ready' qtopia Jun 02 04:33:52 sorry. total newbie here. Jun 02 04:37:22 No one has said anything about h/w in this discussion, so may I assume then that any kicks are about software and gui tk choices? Jun 02 04:38:15 not tcl/tk, -- you know what I meant :-) Jun 02 04:39:32 Well, there are a couple of hardware issues. The Freerunner is a 3-band GSM phone, in a four-band world. Also, the graphics accelerator chip, the glamo, seems to be rather crippled by sharing a fairly slow bus with the microSD card. Jun 02 04:40:38 I (think) I read in the wiki that they were dropping glamo, but you say the wiki is... of doubtful veracity. Jun 02 04:40:57 Yes, I'm sure the Freerunner will have the glamo. Jun 02 04:41:01 to be fair, software is only a time and money question. (besides politics) ... hardware is the tricky part ;) Jun 02 04:41:02 oh, where are you rtm? Jun 02 04:41:19 gemlog: Boston (Cambrage, MA, actually) Jun 02 04:41:27 (Cambridge) Jun 02 04:41:42 ok. same mostly cdma world I'm from (I think). Jun 02 04:42:08 only our metro cities have gsm so far. Jun 02 04:42:35 especially in a world which is only slowly getting the point when it comes to usable soc and chips for a true free and open device. Jun 02 04:42:48 gemlog: Even though the neo1973 lacks one of the GSM bands used in the US, I get good coverage around here. Jun 02 04:43:28 rtm too bad. do you travel much? if not, there is still the gsm850 variant around Jun 02 04:43:36 si, roh. rtm: the b/w I'm hoping for only will cover two ranges. 4? Heck. I only thought there were three. Jun 02 04:43:54 THe Freerunner will have an 850 variant, of course. Jun 02 04:44:44 rtm: do you use the phone as main or is it just a side hobby? How useful is it to you? Jun 02 04:45:00 * ljp lives in Australia so doesnt care baout 850 Jun 02 04:45:17 roh: I travel, but I have a second cell phone that is still my *real* cell phone. I can't really depend on my OM phone yet. Jun 02 04:45:23 ljp: you have one too? Jun 02 04:46:25 rtm: is that because of travel, or is it unreliable in your town? Or is it just a pita to use so far? Jun 02 04:47:07 ljp: WOuldn't you *prefer* to have a phone that worked nearly everywhere? There are quite a few countries besides the US that use 850. Jun 02 04:47:08 gemlog: yes. i work for Trolltech Jun 02 04:47:24 rtm: of course. when I go to the US Jun 02 04:47:57 ljp: :-) thx for saying that. Jun 02 04:48:08 gemlog: :) The software is not in a state where it is reliable enough or complete enough to replace a real cell phone for most people. The reasons are numerous. Jun 02 04:48:16 gemlog: I have not yet come across a version of the software that has a dependable suspend/resume feature. Without that, the battery life is less thatn a day, unless you turn the phone off, in which case you miss calls coming in. Jun 02 04:48:36 oh, really is early days. Jun 02 04:48:40 IMO, the movement to the new software stack is a great idea for the freerunner, but it is a huge setback for the neo1973 Jun 02 04:49:30 rtm: thats a kernel bug Jun 02 04:49:43 qtopia resumes/suspends just fine Jun 02 04:49:48 please rtm, you never said why you think they are not continuing gtk, or ljp what do you know? in public. Jun 02 04:50:00 ljp: work in bris tech park? Jun 02 04:50:04 yes Jun 02 04:50:15 bats are a problem. my eee pro has issues too. Jun 02 04:50:16 gemlog: I'm not the person to answer that question. Jun 02 04:50:40 but you indicated they were deprecating gtk rtm. Jun 02 04:50:47 ljp: cool, enjoying work for tt? Jun 02 04:51:02 gemlog: Yes, they are. But I'm not privy to the reasons for that decision. Jun 02 04:51:06 gemlog: they are. the new ASU uses qtopia + enlightenment Jun 02 04:51:09 ok Jun 02 04:51:19 patoh: yes. I thinks its great Jun 02 04:51:24 ahh. solid info. thanks ljp. Jun 02 04:51:31 wait. Jun 02 04:51:31 cool, I live on the gold coast Jun 02 04:51:37 nice Jun 02 04:51:38 The suspend/resume bugs are quickly being resolved; the GTA01 is working pretty darn well lately... Jun 02 04:51:38 enlightenment :-( Jun 02 04:51:44 just the wm Jun 02 04:51:56 gemlog: It seems like they have just decided they cannot produce a usable gtk stack in a finite time, and qt has benefitted from years of work. Jun 02 04:52:08 mwester: ok. will have to try a new gta01 image Jun 02 04:52:17 gold coast is a cool project. catch any sharks off your balcony lately? Jun 02 04:52:22 The code isn't yet in the latest images, ljp :( Jun 02 04:52:26 Close... Jun 02 04:52:39 the gold coast is a project? Jun 02 04:52:43 mwester: ok. thats good to know, nenotheless Jun 02 04:53:15 waikiki beach is like the gold coase, except people in hawaii wear shoes and tops Jun 02 04:53:21 coast Jun 02 04:53:27 rtm: why do you like gtk better as a tk? I started with it after wx and just am wondering. Jun 02 04:53:35 ljp: I always a shirt! Jun 02 04:53:38 ljp: can you answer a technical question? What is the preferred way for Qtopia to signal that it has completed the preparations for suspend (i.e. flow control the GSM modem)? Jun 02 04:54:36 register? :-) Jun 02 04:55:20 gemlog: I've used gtk, but I've never written anything for qt, so I don't have a legitimate opinion. I only mentioned it because I think it's a bad sign about the OM project in general that they abandoned the gtk effort, and adopted qt instead. Jun 02 04:56:12 mwester: the phonevendor plugin emits the signal suspendDone() Jun 02 04:56:20 I think it is indisputable that they wasted a lot of effort. Jun 02 04:57:07 Well. I wouldn't say that for only that reason. Many a time I've had to nuke thousands of lines of code, because I was just plain WRONG in the first place. A do-over. It happens a lot. But you know the problem way better the second time around. Third times really suck.... :-) Jun 02 04:57:53 ljp: Ok. Have other devices selected a de-facto standard? I'm suggesting that the modem control signals be used to tell the driver to flow-control (and release flow-control on resume). Jun 02 04:57:57 I mean. It's normal part of the evolution of code. Maybe you're not used to seeing it happening. Jun 02 04:58:24 well designed code shouldn't really have to be re-written Jun 02 04:58:29 ljp: another option is yet another totally-non-standard file in /sys/ somewhere... Jun 02 04:58:36 I don't design much, so I re-write a lot (which I find fun) Jun 02 04:58:36 gemlog: That's true. There's something to be said for having the guts to cut your losses, and adopt someone elses solution.. Jun 02 04:58:42 but it is a large waste of time Jun 02 04:58:49 patoh: I think you haven't written much of it :-) Jun 02 04:58:55 mwester: well, qtopia can do anything needed at that time. Jun 02 04:59:23 to make the release date, qtopia is perfect Jun 02 04:59:52 patoh: qtopia is not going to be on the release image. it is going to be the old gtk ui Jun 02 04:59:57 the old stack would never have made it, that is a bad sign of the status of the project as rtm said Jun 02 05:00:00 oh nasty Jun 02 05:00:03 qtopia x11 has a long way to go Jun 02 05:00:05 release dates are a sales idea. mean nothing. release often; call it ready when done. Jun 02 05:00:20 gemlog: simple users don't update their phone Jun 02 05:00:30 patoh: but you can always install the working qtopia software Jun 02 05:00:33 is the GTA02 meant to be another developer release? Jun 02 05:00:35 ljp: :) Well right, it's software -- I'm fishing to see if there's a better way than others to do it. If there are no established techniques, I'll just patch one in that works. Jun 02 05:00:38 simple users are warned away from buying at this time. Jun 02 05:01:05 There was a certain elegance to the fact that the neo1973s shipped with NO software. Jun 02 05:01:17 It had a kernel. Jun 02 05:01:24 really? Jun 02 05:01:28 ah. Jun 02 05:01:32 I stand correccted. It had uboot too. Jun 02 05:01:32 mwester: I dont think the neo's flow control problems effect other devices, at least in my experience Jun 02 05:02:12 mwester: even some experimental hardware was worked in regards to suspend/resume Jun 02 05:02:31 just worked, that is Jun 02 05:02:55 * roh kicks the listserver in the nuts Jun 02 05:03:40 :) Let me just say that I have been "surprised" by the S3C24xx SoC's serial port implementations, and the driver for it... Jun 02 05:04:02 still do not get why on earth mailman seems to be 'the best/least pain you can get' when it comes to listsoftware Jun 02 05:05:04 mwester: in my personal experience... i just try to stay as far away from anything which has to do with tty or serial ports, uarts/usarts and similar stuff if one doesnt like trouble ;) Jun 02 05:05:50 roh: habit and historical reasons. why is bind and sendmail so common? :-) Jun 02 05:06:26 gemlog good question? why are people still having broken bsd4.4 firewalls which eat ECN? Jun 02 05:07:06 gemlog but to be fair.. sendmail and bind? yuk. thats long ago for me. exim and djb for me and i am happy since ~2000 Jun 02 05:07:59 just wait and see the 2.4linux based, never updated plastic-dsl-routers become a bigger botnet than win32 based machines ever could be Jun 02 05:08:03 The good doctor's ego makes me crazy. more a postfix guy here. Jun 02 05:08:17 roh: It gets even worse... the latest bit of experimentation is going to be to try DMA for the GTA01 UART to see if that fixes the overrun problems. :o Jun 02 05:09:10 roh: there's a new horror. wouldn't that have spread like wildfire by now? Hadn't heard of it. what sploit? Jun 02 05:09:14 gemlog fine with me.. everybody his poison of choice. thats the beauty of linux or opensource in general. there is never only one correct answer or solution. there are always different ones, depending on who is solving it and in what situation Jun 02 05:10:28 roh: agreed. no worries. I used Matts stuff under amiga happily for years. Missed the bsd boat is all. Jun 02 05:10:39 gemlog i have heard of something like that. but afaik its only memory-residing. so when one resets the plastic router its back to normal (till infected again) .. hard to come by and debug. especially with carriers and their callcenters asking 'did you reboot the modem/router and did it work again?' Jun 02 05:11:05 mwester: it keeps interresting *g* Jun 02 05:11:17 eh stays Jun 02 05:11:31 OK. that's number one of two on the isp script so not too bad a problem, but what was the sploit? Jun 02 05:12:29 dunno. only rumors atm. also one would need to have a common router with an old unmodified image and still a serial and debug connectivity in place to see whats happening. Jun 02 05:13:18 and a exploit propably would need to be fw-agnostic... but hey.. just take a look at which iptables stuff was broken in the last 3-4 years. Jun 02 05:13:30 regular people do never update the fw in there. Jun 02 05:13:49 so it's just negative handwaving from a non-linux camp? :-) I hadn't heard of it till now. Perfectly plausible, likely though. Shit happens and then is patched, but not to firmware. Interesting. Jun 02 05:14:04 and the soc vendors who glue that thing together often are themselves not on a recent version Jun 02 05:14:27 remember dlinks infamous ntp bug? Jun 02 05:14:34 gemlog experience and a sense for how the world works doesnt mean one is negative-waving ;) Jun 02 05:15:00 oh, please, just jawing. Jun 02 05:15:16 security is a process, nothing which can be decided by people in suits or sold as product (well.. if you want to sell snakeoil and have stupid-enough-öcustomers...) Jun 02 05:16:01 Hey , I use Theo's stuff every single day and depend on it and that thinking. Jun 02 05:16:26 plus, he's my countryman (calgary, right next door) Jun 02 05:16:59 i would pay money to get a real, rewritten from scratch, audited by not-morrons replacement for anything from isc, openssl, openssh and some other blatant 'problem heards' Jun 02 05:17:45 hey, if one man can do it, another one can be found to do the same thing. humbling, but true. Jun 02 05:18:07 theo is a freak for security and that's why I trust his code. Jun 02 05:18:23 hard to find another guy like that. Jun 02 05:18:35 the interaction of the openssl team in the recent case atleast has shown that they care no interrest in security of other peoples systems or in cooperating with others. Jun 02 05:18:58 well that really was debians fault Jun 02 05:19:04 freak, yeah. clue of security beneath his 'auraa'? dunno, Jun 02 05:19:14 ok. drowning here, me. don't know about this case. I'm real busy on not Sunday. Jun 02 05:19:38 patoh wrong. they asked the openssl team. and got basically a white waiver that its 'ok' and no bit of a warning Jun 02 05:19:54 patoh later the openssl team said 'well.. you used a wrong mailinglist' Jun 02 05:20:07 the correct one is not annouced anywhere. Jun 02 05:20:09 roh? spell checker off or are you dissing theo? Jun 02 05:20:45 gemlog no spellchecker. but to be fair.. i respect him. i am just lucky when i do not need to depend on his code. Jun 02 05:21:17 roh: if you use ssh at all you depend on his careful code. Jun 02 05:21:26 gemlog lets just say we have different points of view whats acceptable and how to interact with humans and computers Jun 02 05:21:53 roh: if you don't, then I think you are in the wrong discussion. Jun 02 05:21:58 just sayin. Jun 02 05:21:59 gemlog openssl is only partially his work.. and as i said.. if there would be a replacement, i would be happy to use it asap Jun 02 05:22:15 ssh. Jun 02 05:22:19 not ssl Jun 02 05:22:40 still the same 'bunch of s*it' open* Jun 02 05:22:56 say on old son Jun 02 05:23:10 the world it not black and white and one needs some sense for levels of grey and pragmatism. Jun 02 05:23:20 ok Jun 02 05:23:49 thats why i said i resepect him, but i do not need to aggree or use more of his work than seems reasonable to me. Jun 02 05:24:14 What's wrong with ssh in your opinion? Jun 02 05:24:30 gemlog single-mindedness in the develteam? Jun 02 05:24:39 loads of bloat. Jun 02 05:24:51 open* thinking basically Jun 02 05:24:55 It's fast and responsive for me. Jun 02 05:25:04 lets say 'it works' Jun 02 05:25:18 till the next CVE and everybody panics again. Jun 02 05:25:28 I'm up near alaska and control boxen down in texas. It's all good. Jun 02 05:25:47 It's encrypted, it's secure end to end. Jun 02 05:25:54 its not that djb-like as i would have it sometimes.. (well.. djb can be a asshole too an dalso has strong opinions one doesnt have to agree with always) Jun 02 05:26:28 i can still use the same binaries for my dns as ive used 2000. thats 8 years of personal usage without a single security issue. Jun 02 05:26:40 djb is an asshat :-) though. Jun 02 05:27:02 smarter than me for sure, but still an asshat Jun 02 05:27:14 well.. theo is also.. read his mails, get friends report about conference behaviour... not my type. Jun 02 05:27:34 i like it when people have the guts to say when they fucked up. Jun 02 05:27:37 theo hasnt Jun 02 05:27:40 I'm not defending theo's personality/character -- it's well known. Jun 02 05:27:59 this is a meritocracy, not a popularity contest. Jun 02 05:28:00 i cannot take people serious about security when they are not earnest. Jun 02 05:28:13 His stuff works. It's solid and I back that. Jun 02 05:28:18 but thats me. everybody has to decide that himself. Jun 02 05:28:24 no. Jun 02 05:28:28 It's just math. Jun 02 05:28:35 gemlog yeah. if you do not need any performance you can even use openbsd *scnr* Jun 02 05:28:50 no fuzzy wuzzy "I feel" or "I think" stuff. Jun 02 05:29:05 all verifiable Jun 02 05:29:17 Theo does good work. Jun 02 05:30:00 well.. same 'make it sound nice' talking as 'no remote exploits in X time' when you define it only applies to a empty base system without any services ;) Jun 02 05:30:43 debian atleast never promises such stuff and admitted their parts of responsibilty on that recent issue. thats what i am talking bout. Jun 02 05:31:28 responsibilty means taking the fair share of blame without a bad feeling. and that should be something everybody who writes code should think about it. Jun 02 05:31:39 No. Not at all. I've never had a sploit in all the time I've been on publicly. I've swapped mails with Theo. He really is a prick. But he's always right. Jun 02 05:31:48 Stallman is the same. Jun 02 05:32:36 either take it, and be proud about your archievements and learn from your errors, or better do not release your code and be somebody irresponsible. Jun 02 05:32:58 stallman is also such a not right all the time guy ;) much to blacknwhite for me. Jun 02 05:33:26 I do release my code. It's small time but it's up there. Just a few thousand downloads each year. Jun 02 05:34:03 I also host other projects for free. Jun 02 05:34:34 stallman. he is REALLLY smart and scary. I've swapped mails with him a couple of times. Jun 02 05:34:47 He is a bit spooky too I must say. Jun 02 05:35:25 heh.. most 'alphaanimals' are spooky somehow ;) Jun 02 05:35:58 really, he will blow your doors off. just write him and find out. Jun 02 05:37:24 gemlog well.. guess why there are no fw-updates by concept atm? Jun 02 05:37:29 In my case, I still disagreed with him, but I was totally helpless to make a decent reply. Jun 02 05:37:37 not that we would have time or all pieces needed. Jun 02 05:38:12 he wants to see everything with fw in it as blackbox. Jun 02 05:38:16 roh: you need to translate that sentence for me. I'm not a bsd guy. Jun 02 05:38:27 aslong as one cannot write the fw yourself. Jun 02 05:38:33 s/fw/firmware Jun 02 05:38:40 as in gsm, gps, whatever Jun 02 05:38:45 bt Jun 02 05:40:13 fw == firmware? Then I'm out. fw == firewall I write all the time. Jun 02 05:40:59 fw == firmware Jun 02 05:41:15 not me then. Jun 02 05:41:20 as in some blob which you load into ram or flash of a extra-cpu to be executed there Jun 02 05:41:36 yeah, yeah :-) got it already. Jun 02 05:41:43 as for example in the bluetooth, or wifi or gsm or gps of the moko Jun 02 05:42:08 I will never play in there. I just don't have the time. Jun 02 05:42:25 so stallman basically sees sw-updates of firmware not as neccessary as far as i understood, as long as its proprietary blobs. Jun 02 05:42:45 blobs are bad, yes. Jun 02 05:43:10 They are compiled, unknown source. Jun 02 05:43:21 Obviously blobs are bad. Jun 02 05:43:28 yeah. but having none is even worse. because it basically makes your hw unusable Jun 02 05:44:10 and aslong they run on extra cpu. extra ram, no access to systemram or registers, its fine. then you can see it as blackbox again from a driver pov Jun 02 05:44:16 Yeah, so I won't buy your h/w . so there. I spend a lot of (my client's) money per year. deal with that. Jun 02 05:44:36 the important point is never to have blobs executed on your application-cpu Jun 02 05:44:53 gemlog to be fair. you cannot buy ANY hw on planet earth anymore then. Jun 02 05:45:05 nothing. nada. niil. its over then. Jun 02 05:45:30 exactly. And I just showed the leaverage. You are wrong. I can buy a lot of h/w that doesn't rely on blobs to drive it. Jun 02 05:45:47 even your cpu (anything post pentiumII i think) is based on (updateable) firmware and microcode you have no source access to Jun 02 05:46:03 and acpi is also interpreted on your cpu. delivered with the bios .. as blob. Jun 02 05:46:11 atombios from ati.. the same. Jun 02 05:46:23 roh: But that's not true for ARM, is it? Jun 02 05:46:29 gemlog same there. Jun 02 05:46:35 Those last two are both very true. My bad. I should have been clearer. Jun 02 05:46:38 no microcode, but firmware on every soc Jun 02 05:46:43 or better nearly. Jun 02 05:46:52 There is open bios. Jun 02 05:46:54 e.g. there is no wifi-solution for embedded which doesnt need firmware Jun 02 05:47:09 gemlog still uses cpu-microcode on x86. Jun 02 05:47:11 but there is gpl firmware Jun 02 05:47:31 X86 itself IS implemented only in microcode. the real cpu is much more risc Jun 02 05:47:36 I already conceded that point. Jun 02 05:48:01 gemlog there is no wifi chipset for embedded i know of which is not using proprietary fw. marvell as well as atheros. Jun 02 05:48:08 ti even worse Jun 02 05:48:25 the wiki has an atheros chipset that fits Jun 02 05:48:31 fw-based Jun 02 05:48:44 have a look Jun 02 05:48:46 sorry.. i know that shit too well. Jun 02 05:49:11 well, that's what they are going with for the free/whatever Jun 02 05:49:14 ar6000 is fw based. it resides in flash, thus you do not need to upload it from a file on driver-start Jun 02 05:49:50 ack. thats what gets used in the freerunner. because its the best compromise we could make. a completely free and open driver under gpl. Jun 02 05:50:04 they used an NDA ti chip for gps too. Jun 02 05:50:21 anything whats executed on the app-cpu needs fo be available in source. Jun 02 05:50:30 gps is not from ti. Jun 02 05:50:34 its from ublox. Jun 02 05:51:03 and yes, the fw on there is also not free. but the drivers are. again. only code executed in subsystems may be binary-only Jun 02 05:51:30 still not a problem with freedom or openness. only with stallman ;) Jun 02 05:52:01 gemlog the gsm is also fw-based (like on any mobile phone, nobody can do gsm in hw alone) Jun 02 05:52:34 i could continue the list... what notebook do you use, gemlog? Jun 02 05:53:50 roh: I mostly live on my desktop. in the past I've had palms from their first, then zaurus. Now I have an eee and I'm very happy with it. Jun 02 05:54:14 because e.g. the intel ipw3945 and friends wifi cards also use binary fw in blobs... or every bluetooth hardware ive seen (most are CSR4 from cambridge semic.) Jun 02 05:54:54 the eee uses proprietary code for its wifi.. in that case even bad one (madwifi hal, executed on the host-cpu) Jun 02 05:55:15 that could even get one security issues (binary fw doesnt that easy) Jun 02 05:55:21 I thought I would modify the crap out of it when I got it. But really, I only put on my pub key and that was it. Great network box at client's and great "bathroom book" or "bedbook". otherwise. It just works. Jun 02 05:55:47 i know. have one too. but i run xubuntu on it since the xandros just sucked too bad Jun 02 05:56:13 its impressive 'end-user-friendÃly' Jun 02 05:56:24 even with its hacky kde apps Jun 02 05:56:46 but not really my world (i am not a common end-user ;)) Jun 02 05:56:57 lol Jun 02 05:57:16 I'm no common end user as well but the eeepc fits my needs(after custom installed distro etc...) Jun 02 05:57:33 It's just perfect for me. alt ctl t and I'm in to wherever I need to be. I love the thing. Jun 02 05:57:34 did luks root-crypto now and am lucky. its my 'have it with you as terminal' machine. Jun 02 05:57:45 browser, flashplayer (security issue there!!1!) Jun 02 05:57:47 it's my primary machine Jun 02 05:58:06 ruskie wow. Jun 02 05:58:17 can play bzflag and planeshift just fine for my needs :) Jun 02 05:58:34 ruskie: did you remap the right shift key :-) ? Jun 02 05:58:35 and that's the most intensive stuff I run... Jun 02 05:58:38 no Jun 02 05:58:47 since I like it where it is Jun 02 05:58:50 to be fair, i only use it when i was too lazy to move the 15" machine with me or need the additional physical security (e.g. i go drinking with friends, or onto a festival) Jun 02 05:59:12 my finger doesn't hit there at all. I'm suprised. You touch type? Jun 02 05:59:17 yup Jun 02 05:59:28 but I have big fingers/hands Jun 02 05:59:40 well, you're a better man than I. Jun 02 05:59:41 and the rshift is just where I tend to hit a normal keyboards shift Jun 02 05:59:50 the 1 is annoying though... Jun 02 05:59:58 hopefully there are 9" ones in black avail with atom soon. need more screen-estate for the summer in the city Jun 02 06:00:14 I want to mod mine into a tablet Jun 02 06:00:28 two I want it both a tablet and normal layout Jun 02 06:00:58 like a simpad with keyboard? Jun 02 06:01:05 I also have black alpha keys and white other keys :) looks interesting... Jun 02 06:01:07 simpad??? Jun 02 06:01:19 thanks you guys for getting me up to speed on what is what with openmoko. I'm off to bed now (pacific time). ciao. Jun 02 06:01:31 nyx gemlog Jun 02 06:01:36 ciao Jun 02 06:02:09 http://www.pdastock.com/img/Siemens-SIMpad-SL4_616.jpg Jun 02 06:02:15 8.4" 800x600 screen Jun 02 06:02:37 too big Jun 02 06:02:52 same size as a eee Jun 02 06:03:06 yep, except the eee includes a keyboard :) Jun 02 06:03:35 roh, yeah that way Jun 02 06:04:09 so basically like a X-series tablet mode device shrunk down 20%? Jun 02 06:04:28 roh, though more like craptop Jun 02 06:04:31 i mean.. these have 12" xga and up screens you can turn around and a real keyboard Jun 02 06:04:35 I want to keep the keyboard somewhere... Jun 02 06:04:38 and real amounts of cpu Jun 02 06:04:41 then you're into tablet territory Jun 02 06:05:06 doc|home ack. and i am still not convinced touchscreen is the next big thing. Jun 02 06:05:17 a 10inch screen with a eee sized keyboard, clamshell or not, with 1024xXXX would be nice Jun 02 06:05:51 I might just try to see how to make the hinges extend so that the inter eee becomes flat... Jun 02 06:05:54 roh: yeah, not for any significant amount of work. n800 for example is good for sitting in a cafe or whatever but I wouldn't irc on it much, or really use it for sms Jun 02 06:05:57 that would work for my needs... Jun 02 06:06:10 doc|home announced for the new eee this summer.. the 9" screen is avail now in china (eee900)(white case only) but it kept the same cpu as the eee700 Jun 02 06:06:20 roh: yeah, 901 has atom Jun 02 06:06:22 doc|home the atom-based ones still take a bit (i will wait) Jun 02 06:06:25 roh, the new eee this summer is the 901 Jun 02 06:06:27 900 is dead Jun 02 06:06:35 asus stopped taking orders during may Jun 02 06:07:05 yeah, the eee has kind of killed itself though, the msi wind looks better, although for the life of me I can't see why they're fucking with the specs the way they are :/ Jun 02 06:07:35 will see how the 901 will go Jun 02 06:07:43 but I'm happy with the 701... Jun 02 06:08:12 doc|home we'll see.. killed is i think a wrong word for a product which sells itself Jun 02 06:08:22 yup Jun 02 06:08:39 does it though? in comparison to the competition? Jun 02 06:08:43 though I was opposed to the eeepc as just another craptop until I actually tried it at a friend and then a demo unit at the shop... Jun 02 06:08:57 doc|home, asus is shifting a large amount of them... Jun 02 06:09:09 its a laptop. built like fisher-price Jun 02 06:09:13 I loved the idea of thee eee, a cheap, small, light desktop without windows. win! Jun 02 06:09:17 its like a toy, very sturdy Jun 02 06:09:19 and cheap. Jun 02 06:10:00 but I'd be happier with even a larger non-ssd hard disk and a higher res screen (with less bezel being a bonus) Jun 02 06:10:20 thats what i need for camping/festivals. my personal data on a usb-stick around my neck and the flash on the eee is backupped at home and crypted and the device that cheap that it doesnt hurt if its stolen or destroyed by water in the tent or so Jun 02 06:10:33 heh Jun 02 06:10:55 really man, if you're at a festival and you have your laptop, then you're doing something wrong. I don't even bring extra clothes to festivals :) Jun 02 06:11:10 :) Jun 02 06:12:01 doc|home only for emergencies. as in 'playing quiet comedown-music when its over' and for accessing machines when you get paniced phonecalls from work Jun 02 06:12:11 lol Jun 02 06:12:20 you actually take phonecalls from work when on leave? Jun 02 06:12:25 roh: :) Jun 02 06:12:37 ruskie: heh, fair point. I'd switch off my phone. Jun 02 06:12:42 the last years we had tp40p and some usb-sticks with the peoples keys and a huawei-egg for ip Jun 02 06:12:46 at festival != on call Jun 02 06:12:58 doc|home and who fixes openmoko then? *ducks* Jun 02 06:13:07 * stefan_schmidt hangs out at the station waiting for a train Jun 02 06:13:13 roh: whoever's on-call :) Jun 02 06:13:14 roh: How are you? Jun 02 06:13:39 doc|home gismo? he will be on the same festival i assume Jun 02 06:13:47 roh: haha Jun 02 06:13:56 stefan_schmidt fine again.. ph-neutral was hard on my head Jun 02 06:14:44 stefan_schmidt i didn't even archive to get to linuxtag Jun 02 06:14:46 roh: Ah, the inventation only hacking and drinking event. :) Jun 02 06:14:57 roh: tss Jun 02 06:14:59 stefan_schmidt ack. less hacking, more talking. Jun 02 06:15:14 roh: We still had a good time. To much to talk, but still good Jun 02 06:15:17 mostly socializing, meeting the weirdest and most interresting people Jun 02 06:15:55 roh: From this point of view Linuxtag was also good Jun 02 06:16:12 nice to hear Jun 02 06:16:33 because come'on.. 'where business meets community' or similar texts.. who does believe that? Jun 02 06:17:29 roh: well, I had good business *and* community talks. It's always a question who,m to chat with. Jun 02 06:17:38 hehe Jun 02 06:17:53 Of course 90% is uninteressting stuff Jun 02 06:18:33 In the end I liked it even I'm not a fan of working at a booth. Jun 02 06:18:49 stefan_schmidt where are you travelling to? still in Berlin? Jun 02 06:19:00 ok, time for breakfast. cu guys later. Jun 02 06:19:35 roh: no, I went home saturday. One day at home and now on the way to Vachdorf. HackWeek with Pengutronix Jun 02 06:20:00 hrr.. well.. still.. even at ph-neutral i got asked about OM lots of times could have used flyers and a loop to reduce explaining asu over and over Jun 02 06:20:10 nice Jun 02 06:20:11 heh Jun 02 06:20:25 happy hacking then Jun 02 06:20:35 yeah, hope so Jun 02 06:46:51 how to use openmoko as a usb mass storage...? Jun 02 06:49:21 mib_oml: there's a discussion about this on the mailing list right now I think, I don't think it can directly although I think there's something on the wiki about how you can get around that Jun 02 06:50:43 ya it was me who posted regd dis in the mailing list. I found something like usb-gadget which makes it possible... Jun 02 06:51:14 anyone who knows abt the usb-gadget?? Jun 02 07:07:52 mib_oml there are several things about usb-gadget to know Jun 02 07:08:03 for once, yes one could do usb-masstorage Jun 02 07:08:53 but that means the phone and the pc can only mount the filesystem exclusively (atleast i know of no fs that every pc knows and which allows for concurrent block-device-level sharing) Jun 02 07:09:30 also the soc cannot do a unlimited number of usb-endpoints and thus we need to decide if its usb-masstorage, usb-cdc-ethernet or usb-acm serial Jun 02 07:09:58 usb-cdc-ethernet makes the most usescases possible without switching forth and back Jun 02 07:11:27 but it be more handy if v cud get usb mass storage so that v can transfer files lik tat Jun 02 07:11:29 it got d info tat wit d usb-gadget, there is an module for file backed storage. but i need further details abt tat? Jun 02 07:11:47 so yes, we already use usb-gadget. in usb-cdc-ethernet mode. of course one could change that to usb-masstorage, with all the problems it brings Jun 02 07:12:02 s/file backed/block backed Jun 02 07:12:21 can be a file inside a filesystem, can be a mtd partition, can be anything thats a linux blockdevice Jun 02 07:12:28 k let me try it out... how to switch that to usb mass storage mode? Jun 02 07:12:41 but it can NOT be mounted at the same time from linux. thus editing the rootfs isnt possible atm Jun 02 07:13:09 i think usb-masstorage mode uses another gadget kernelmod. would need to read the docs about that Jun 02 07:13:33 its default linux-kernel code, no special openmoko mods in there (only fixes) Jun 02 07:15:23 when i was reading the docs in wiki.openmoko, i used to get sum info sayin tat if it s switched , it can b used as a usb mass storage. but k how to get it switched? Jun 02 07:15:31 http://www.linux-usb.org/gadget/file_storage.html Jun 02 07:15:39 but you need to remove g_ether first Jun 02 07:15:42 i mean switched to mass storage mode Jun 02 07:15:54 could be compiled in (dunno that free hand now) Jun 02 07:16:12 ya exactly i got this info in many places. Jun 02 07:16:13 would mean you need to compile a kernel with that as module Jun 02 07:16:30 there is no userspace tool for usb-gadget Jun 02 07:17:26 k tats gud clear info man. Jun 02 07:17:32 i ll check it Jun 02 07:22:40 good morning Jun 02 07:32:11 I was wondering if anyone knows if the neo freerunner works with SIM cards by the operator "Three". They have some weird stuff in them and don't work in all phones. Jun 02 07:46:35 shurdeek no clue.. which country? Jun 02 07:46:44 and whats 'special'? Jun 02 07:47:10 do they depend on sim toolkit or is it just a newer usim? Jun 02 08:18:11 ~seen mickeyl Jun 02 08:18:16 mickeyl was last seen on IRC in channel #oe, 10h 18m 32s ago, saying: 'which is a zaurus'. Jun 02 08:58:46 hey ScaredyCat you there? Jun 02 09:05:39 is anyone awake here right now? Jun 02 09:05:59 nope Jun 02 09:06:04 i've got a probley - i keep getting the "Enter PUK" dialog when i boot my neo .. i enter the puk - i have both puk1 and puk2 for my card - but it doesn't seem to be working .. Jun 02 09:06:48 I dont even have a pin set, so never dealt with PUKs Jun 02 09:07:32 but if i enter the code wrong too many times, the card will destroy itself right? Jun 02 09:07:42 i mean the openmoko software will disable the card permanently? Jun 02 09:07:45 yeah 10 AFAIK Jun 02 09:07:57 no, the SIM will self terminate Jun 02 09:08:06 ok Jun 02 09:08:26 I think its 10 times for most GSM SIMs for incorrect PUK Jun 02 09:08:27 so that means this card is unusable then .. i've entered the puk every time (it just says "enter puk" so i enter puk1) and it doesn't seem to 'take'. Jun 02 09:08:34 I would put that sim in a real phine Jun 02 09:08:37 is there a way to do this on the cmd line on the neo? Jun 02 09:08:45 maybe gsmd just doesnt handle puk Jun 02 09:08:46 XorA: ah good idea i will do that now. Jun 02 09:09:51 dunno why i didn't think of that before. Jun 02 09:11:15 hey, why I see here that FreeRunner will have CPU on 500MHz? http://www.pulster.de/info/pdas/openmoko/freerunner-flyer.pdf Jun 02 09:11:19 something changed? Jun 02 09:11:44 its a 500Mhz cpu, but only runs at 400Mhz Jun 02 09:11:56 hm :-) Jun 02 09:11:57 when hardware design was done the 2442 only ran at 400Mhz Jun 02 09:12:21 and 4GB SD card limitation? I thought it is without limits.... Jun 02 09:12:34 I think thats wrong as well Jun 02 09:12:51 should be any size SDHC mainline kernel supports Jun 02 09:15:33 SDHC is limited to 32GB Jun 02 09:15:48 but i dont think 32GB cards are shipping Jun 02 09:16:21 buz *g* I bet in the new iphone Jun 02 09:16:34 ? Jun 02 09:19:13 okay that worked, thanks for reminding me to do the obvious fix XorA .. ;) Jun 02 09:19:23 i now have a working neo again .. gotta do an update .. Jun 02 09:19:27 ok so we know we dont handle PUK right :-) Jun 02 09:19:53 yeah Jun 02 09:19:55 it doesn't work. Jun 02 09:20:03 apropos sdhc, can anyone recommend a reasonably fast card for cameras? Jun 02 09:20:21 hdtv cams? Jun 02 09:20:32 buz: I always use Sandisk extremeIII Jun 02 09:20:47 buz 32gb cards exist Jun 02 09:20:56 buz: ^ Jun 02 09:21:08 i only see 16GB in switzerland Jun 02 09:21:12 but thats not saying much Jun 02 09:21:29 i have a 32gb class 6 apacer Jun 02 09:22:07 class 6 is at least 6MB/s right? Jun 02 09:22:13 yeh, 6mb write Jun 02 09:22:33 mhh that should be good enough, my cam shoots at 3,3fps and needs at little below 2mb per pic Jun 02 09:22:41 not actually sure how fast it is, little asus eee cant move data that fast :) Jun 02 09:23:02 that is, once the cam is back from rma Jun 02 09:23:04 madwoota: the eeePC can max out a class 6 card Jun 02 09:23:08 i know it can Jun 02 09:23:16 i was only testing over ethernet tho Jun 02 09:23:21 10mb/s is good enuf for me Jun 02 09:23:28 * mjr 's 16 gig sdhc is screwed :I Jun 02 09:23:39 * buz got suckered into buying ebay cards Jun 02 09:23:45 have to get a warranty replacement when I have the time... Jun 02 09:23:46 pwned :( Jun 02 09:23:47 guess what, they are 1GB (but claim to be 4GB) Jun 02 09:24:01 never buy from ebay :( Jun 02 09:24:12 well i also got 3 usb sd card readers Jun 02 09:24:16 those work :P Jun 02 09:24:27 would not have cost much more in store but never mind Jun 02 09:24:30 expensive card readers tho :) Jun 02 09:24:38 well 25usd for the 3 Jun 02 09:24:53 thats about what they cost retail Jun 02 09:24:57 + the 4gb^h^h^h1gb cards Jun 02 09:25:03 yeah, 2 of them Jun 02 09:25:10 i wont use them though Jun 02 09:25:16 bin, best place for em Jun 02 09:25:20 writing pics to nirvana is not nice Jun 02 09:25:22 yeah Jun 02 09:25:33 or maybe in a frame with "dont buy from ebay" around it Jun 02 09:25:45 morning Jun 02 09:25:49 then sell that and the frame on ebay :) Jun 02 09:27:01 lol Jun 02 09:27:26 okay bbl .. thx guys .. Jun 02 09:30:02 openmoko: 03julian_chu 07org.openmoko.dev * rcdef50ce710e 10/conf/distro/include/sane-srcrevs.inc: [sane-srcrevs] Update opkg to 4465 Jun 02 09:30:03 openmoko: 03julian_chu 07org.openmoko.dev * rbaaf75f404a0 10/conf/distro/include/sane-srcrevs.inc: [sane-srcrevs] Update exposure to 25 Jun 02 09:30:04 openmoko: 03julian_chu 07org.openmoko.dev * rddb01379e01c 10/packages/packagekit/ (3 files in 2 dirs): [packagekit] Add 2 patched for packagekit. Jun 02 09:30:14 openmoko: 03graeme 07org.openmoko.dev * rcbdd3b50e75b 10/packages/qtopia-phone/qtopia-phone-x11_4.3.1.bb: [qtopia-phone-x11] DEPENDS on libtiff Jun 02 09:43:52 torpor: yes Jun 02 10:34:56 Hi all Jun 02 10:35:06 hello Jun 02 10:35:15 I have setup the openmoko development environment under /usr Jun 02 10:35:48 I want to know if the environment includes and libraries for accessing the gps Jun 02 10:36:28 sreekanth: what do you mean by setup? Jun 02 10:36:46 sreekanth: OE wont work when placed under /usr Jun 02 10:37:34 the setup I mentioned referred here is for the cross compiler which is needed for the application development Jun 02 10:37:47 sreekanth: ok, thats fine then Jun 02 10:37:56 sreekanth: for gta01 GPS is secret and binary only Jun 02 10:38:10 sreekanth: for GTA02 its a plane serial port, doesnt need any libraries Jun 02 10:38:18 s/plane/plain/ Jun 02 10:38:19 XorA meant: sreekanth: for GTA02 its a plain serial port, doesnt need any libraries Jun 02 10:39:09 XorA: Ok .. But how can I access the gps through a c program? Jun 02 10:39:48 fopen("/dev/ttySAC01","r"); Jun 02 10:40:05 sreekanth: or investigate gpsd or gypsy Jun 02 10:40:58 XorA: That's true ..Actually there is a library called gpsd for accessing the gps ... Jun 02 10:41:34 but the problem is that we can not cross compile the program if we use the gps.h Jun 02 10:43:20 iirc gypsy is going to replace gpsd ... Jun 02 10:44:31 are there any ARM based c libraries for gpsd/gypsy Jun 02 10:44:34 ? Jun 02 10:46:10 http://folks.o-hand.com/iain/gypsy/gypsy-tutorial.html Jun 02 10:47:23 ScaredyCat: Great ... Jun 02 10:47:51 can anyone tell me if the usb gadget emulation in qemu is only in the openmoko svn tree? are there patches floating around elsewhere? Jun 02 10:48:54 trickie_ i guess yes. dunno if that was already pushed upstream somewhere Jun 02 10:50:35 roh: ok cheers, id like to see if it will work with the n800 emulation stuff in qemu svn for the mamona project Jun 02 11:21:27 trickie_: the n800 emulation has only USB host mode atm Jun 02 11:29:40 freesmartphone.org: 03heikki.paajanen * refcc7fc5290a 10/src/ (sim.c utils.c utils.h): Added sending of MessageSent signal when sending stored message Jun 02 11:29:40 freesmartphone.org: 03heikki.paajanen * r47f3707f2c81 10/test/gsmd_common.py: Fixed handling of GsmdCommon parameters Jun 02 11:29:41 freesmartphone.org: 03heikki.paajanen * rfc6d8813f64a 10/src/ (call.c modem.c modem_internal.h): Refactored handling of multiple interfaces Jun 02 11:39:00 balrog-kun: ok, thanks Jun 02 12:17:26 * ScaredyCat wondes wtf is going on Jun 02 12:17:30 then wonders Jun 02 12:17:34 "/home/moko/newBuild/openembedded/packages/0xFFFF/0xffff-native_0.1.bb:" Jun 02 12:19:15 * cekay .cC( ??? ) Jun 02 12:20:09 OLD_PWD=$PWD; cd `dirname '/home/moko/newBuild/openembedded/packages/*/*.bb /home/moko/newBuild/local/packages/*/*.bb'`; Jun 02 12:20:24 * ScaredyCat sighs Jun 02 12:20:38 freesmartphone.org: 03heikki.paajanen * rd27fc048578d 10/ (configure.ac src/Makefile.am): Removed sqlite3 dependency Jun 02 12:28:42 uha.. wtf Jun 02 12:34:11 anyone here compiled the openmoko kernel source?? Jun 02 12:34:25 i need help in compiling it... Jun 02 12:35:11 mass_stor, if its the git error, you are not alone Jun 02 12:47:59 mass_stor: yes Jun 02 12:49:21 hey guys whats the easiest way to view PDF's on my openmoko phone right now? Jun 02 12:51:40 print them and clip the paper on the screen Jun 02 12:54:53 torpor dunno if anybody has ever built/ported a pdf reader.. i would guess you will find one for qte or opie Jun 02 12:55:00 ok Jun 02 12:55:04 thx anyway. Jun 02 12:56:15 besides that... there seem to be quite some nice libs for pdf-pixels now.. like poppler and similar stuff Jun 02 12:58:15 i will have to look into it later. Jun 02 12:58:25 anyone figured out how to get the ethernet port working under OSX Leopard? Jun 02 12:58:34 its totally whack that Apple broke gadget ethernet with leopard. Jun 02 13:01:02 never mind i read the wiki. ;( Jun 02 13:01:03 ;) Jun 02 13:01:06 bbl Jun 02 13:11:18 WELL? Jun 02 13:14:43 oe should already have some PDF viewers Jun 02 13:16:50 torpor: epdfview is gtk+ based and pretty damn fast Jun 02 13:20:35 too bad popppler does mis-render OM-schems Jun 02 13:22:59 * XorA finds numerous ways to destroy all not adobe acrobat readers Jun 02 13:24:23 XorA well.. acrobat itself even sucks more most of the time Jun 02 13:24:45 not only by being nonfree, but having a slow and ugly ui and missing important features Jun 02 13:25:24 when somebody fixes that regression with our (propably defective) pdfs the hw-guys render.. i am happy Jun 02 13:27:05 roh: need to get them to generate some nonsense schem and send it to poppler to fix :-) Jun 02 13:27:51 XorA heh.. if i would know what triggers it.. theyre generated by some 'clibpdf' Jun 02 14:13:21 anyone know how i get GPS working with scaredy's image? Jun 02 14:15:24 torpor: It's described on http://blog.automated.it/ Jun 02 14:15:33 Under "Just a little easier" Jun 02 14:15:44 thanks abraxa__ Jun 02 14:15:54 sorry to be such a pain in the butt, i just got my neo back after a few weeks downtime .. Jun 02 14:15:58 trying to get it working properly. Jun 02 14:16:06 Nothing to be sorry for at all Jun 02 14:17:57 yikes Jun 02 14:19:48 do anyone here had compiled the openmoko kernel? i need sum help regd it... Jun 02 14:20:12 mass_stor: define "some help" Jun 02 14:21:08 mass_stor: you asked already, and yes, many people have Jun 02 14:21:45 i want to compile the kernel for GTA02. how can i set this when compilin usin the makefilr Jun 02 14:22:01 i am a bit new to moko and things Jun 02 14:22:38 Signature check failed Jun 02 14:22:42 how do i fix that? Jun 02 14:27:52 torpor: No fix needed Jun 02 14:27:53 can anyone tell me where i can find GPS maps for, vienna, for example? i forget where they are .. Jun 02 14:28:16 torpor: Don't know of any other place but OSM... Jun 02 14:28:31 i remember there was some way to do it but i don't know the details .. Jun 02 14:29:40 What do you mean - OSM extracts? Jun 02 14:30:34 i need GPS maps for austria, including vienna .. do i just export them from the openstreetmaps web site and put them somewhere or something? Jun 02 14:30:49 What do you mean by 'need gps maps'? Jun 02 14:31:04 you want it for a website? Or a portable device? Or to print in a leather-bound book? Jun 02 14:31:30 i want to put GPS maps on my neo of course and start using it to navigate my way around vienna/austria.. Jun 02 14:31:33 ;) Jun 02 14:31:38 tangogps Jun 02 14:31:54 http://www.tangogps.org/gps/cat/News Jun 02 14:31:55 you mean install that package? Jun 02 14:31:58 torpor: are you using navit? Jun 02 14:32:13 * SpeedEvil has tangogps running on my neo ATM Jun 02 14:32:13 nope Jun 02 14:32:21 not using anything yet, i'm just setting up my phone again ... Jun 02 14:32:37 Remember to set it up to save map tiles on /media/card/whatever Jun 02 14:33:50 oh man i guess i've borked my neo .. its out of space. Jun 02 14:33:55 * torpor goes away. Jun 02 14:34:09 torpor: you can install it on the card. Jun 02 14:34:09 i'm going to have to set my neo up to have root-on-sd again, and use a 4gig card, this is ridiculous.. Jun 02 14:34:33 torpor: also - you want to link gllin/logs or whatever usually to /meia/card/gpslogs Jun 02 14:34:51 SpeedEvil: thanks for the info, but i think i'm going to have to step way back and start again. Jun 02 14:34:57 Oh - this is #openmoko - I thought it was #osm Jun 02 14:35:10 Hence the confusion at first Jun 02 14:35:13 heh Jun 02 14:36:23 okay i'm going home now, so much for my neo today .. see you guys later. Jun 02 14:36:29 Wave. Jun 02 16:04:23 will the freerunner work in japan or korea? Jun 02 16:04:46 http://tech.yahoo.com/blogs/hughes/27919 Jun 02 16:05:07 5000 dollar phone Jun 02 16:06:21 which GSM frequencies (if GSM at all) are used in japan and korea? Jun 02 16:06:33 *g* Jun 02 16:06:36 i dont jp uses gms Jun 02 16:06:38 gsm Jun 02 16:06:48 then, the answer is 'no' Jun 02 16:07:23 I will look in my script Jun 02 16:09:10 ScaredyCat: that "cd `dirname`" thing - try http://members.shaw.ca/mmontour/neo/0001-Support-local-overlays.patch Jun 02 16:10:31 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_Digital_Cellular Jun 02 16:11:11 mickeyl japanese use pdc Jun 02 16:11:29 openmoko: 03thomas * r4466 10/trunk/src/target/opkg/libopkg/ (10 files): Jun 02 16:11:29 openmoko: opkg: consolidate error enums and add an error for when no package matches Jun 02 16:11:29 openmoko: current architecture Jun 02 16:11:57 good. no Neo for Japan then Jun 02 16:12:05 or rather "bummer". Jun 02 16:12:11 hehe Jun 02 16:12:16 like they care ? Jun 02 16:12:39 dunno. they _have_ an open source scene Jun 02 16:12:46 but it's incredibly isolated from the rest of the world Jun 02 16:13:08 security they say prolly Jun 02 16:13:08 i remember a lot from back in the Zaurus days Jun 02 16:13:08 Owing to the wacky language? Jun 02 16:13:25 yes, language is a major factor Jun 02 16:13:41 mickeyl but you could ask laibsch for sure, he is often in japan Jun 02 16:13:59 thanks fo the answer Jun 02 16:16:59 usa distro center in calif? what about other usa distro center are there any? Jun 02 16:17:04 5000$ for a phone.. holy shit Jun 02 16:17:18 east coast or middle usa? Jun 02 16:17:27 isprins: holy cow? Jun 02 16:17:47 yea an prolly not much better than the freerunner Jun 02 16:18:18 yeh but i doubt a pimp is gonna use a freerunner Jun 02 16:18:29 hehe Jun 02 16:18:34 the next openmoko might be KILLER Jun 02 16:19:19 linuxxr freerunner? or GTa04 ? Jun 02 16:19:19 now if u could just start your own network Jun 02 16:19:39 after freerunner Jun 02 16:20:30 isperins u mean on the usa distro center Jun 02 16:20:49 linuxxr: i would like to see the specs... Jun 02 16:20:57 on what? Jun 02 16:21:05 the phone? Jun 02 16:21:20 the 5000 phone? Jun 02 16:21:27 liiuxxr: yes, the one after freerunner Jun 02 16:21:32 oo Jun 02 16:22:04 that 5000 dollar phone is prolly made at fic hahahaaaa Jun 02 16:22:33 maybe not Jun 02 16:23:54 the gasoline prices here in norway is insane.. 15 NOK for a litre Jun 02 16:25:09 15.00 NOK = 2.93 USD Jun 02 16:25:23 O-o Jun 02 16:25:45 here its the equivilent of $1.10 a litre or so Jun 02 16:25:51 and people are complaining Jun 02 16:26:17 1.5 EUR a litre here in finland Jun 02 16:26:21 uk is £1.10 == $2.20 Jun 02 16:27:04 0.28$ per litre here in Egypt Jun 02 16:27:13 a litre is 0.26 gallons Jun 02 16:27:18 Well, French's €1.50 (too) does not seem that crazy then !!! Jun 02 16:27:28 isprins: holy shit? and you have your own oil Jun 02 16:27:49 unfortunatly, oil != petrol Jun 02 16:28:00 zash: jeah, i know.. is it the taxes Jun 02 16:28:07 1.5 EUR a litre == 10 USD a gallon Jun 02 16:28:31 The Total/BP/Texaco taxes you mean... Jun 02 16:28:49 " fun" to drive a 1969 charger that gussles high octane like crazy then... Jun 02 16:29:06 * cb22 hugs his bike Jun 02 16:29:11 motor- Jun 02 16:29:23 I noted with interest VWs offerings in the US and the UK. Jun 02 16:29:40 <- drives a diesel skoda.. 1.8 litre.. Jun 02 16:30:07 * BDo wishes we had Japanese quality petrol Jun 02 16:30:24 I get about 40 extra minutes of battery life from my '01 by underclocking to 200 MHz Jun 02 16:30:25 The highest mileage US vehicle got 45MPG Jun 02 16:30:31 So far that's from only one test, though :-( Jun 02 16:30:39 The highest mileage UK one got 75. Jun 02 16:30:43 Tests where you let the battery run to dead take a long time Jun 02 16:30:50 (with equal sized gallons) Jun 02 16:31:04 With the sulphur contained in our petrol, running direct injection gasoline - which can reduce cunumption by 40% - is impossible. Jun 02 16:31:10 Worse in the USA ! Jun 02 16:31:16 it is strange that i pay3.90 usd Jun 02 16:31:39 the trouble with E87 is that a engine needs 30% more fuel if it is converted from gas Jun 02 16:32:12 E87 ? You mean E85 ? Jun 02 16:32:20 Bdo jep Jun 02 16:32:31 ethanol... Jun 02 16:32:36 Well, with E85 higher compression ratios are possible Jun 02 16:32:51 through variable valves Jun 02 16:33:03 yes,its 105 octane Jun 02 16:33:04 Supercharger + ethanol can give really quite high fuel economy Jun 02 16:33:12 so if you changed your computer for that you could have it optimized Jun 02 16:33:29 Though I note that the toyota Prius can get 100MPG+ at modest speeds (40MPH) Jun 02 16:33:37 provided your engine has variable valve control Jun 02 16:33:42 DIY EFI ? Jun 02 16:33:48 isprins: no Jun 02 16:33:59 isprins: variable valve control is something different Jun 02 16:34:23 isprins: some engines actually have electronically variable valve timins. Jun 02 16:34:29 megasqurirt supports a fuel compsition sensor Jun 02 16:34:37 isprins: not that. Jun 02 16:34:44 isprins: the inlet/exhaust valves Jun 02 16:34:49 The optimal opening of intake and exhaust valves differs at different rpm's. Jun 02 16:34:57 speed: i know.. Jun 02 16:35:16 The Diesetto engine looks interesting too Jun 02 16:35:40 and the result can be a fairly better compression ratio Jun 02 16:35:55 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DiesOtto Jun 02 16:36:05 wankel engines are not bad.. but rare here in Norway Jun 02 16:36:13 just adjust the timings before you get clicketing when running at low E85 rates. Jun 02 16:36:15 Wacky stuff like retaining a fraction of the exhaust gas in the next cycle Jun 02 16:36:44 isprins, wankel suffer from difficulty to get high compression Jun 02 16:37:02 * wishes that Rolls_royce had finished the Crecy engine program* Jun 02 16:37:11 crecy? Jun 02 16:37:28 speed: yes, a v12 two-stroke.. supercharged Jun 02 16:37:29 * kario is waiting for a plug-in hybrid prius Jun 02 16:37:35 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cr%C3%A9cy Jun 02 16:38:32 Looking at the hypermiling links on the toyota prius websites is interesting. Jun 02 16:38:51 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolls-Royce_Crecy Jun 02 16:39:15 Getting 100MPG commutes, interestingly without really touching the battery. Jun 02 16:39:41 isprins, yes, it is still a promising techno... Jun 02 16:40:22 get a g-wiz Jun 02 16:40:40 I think something like a 1 or 2 cylinder 1l supercharged diesotto engine might be very interesting fuel economy wise. Jun 02 16:40:53 I guess Toyota was part of the Bioethanol Elise from Lotus, quite interesting too... Jun 02 16:41:05 i have read somewhere that the crecy engine would give about 5000 HP when the development was "finished" Jun 02 16:41:25 * BDo does not need the tenth of it... Jun 02 16:42:33 small turbodiesel hybrid would be cool Jun 02 16:42:46 " Crecy number 10 achieved 2500 hp on 21 December 1944. Subsequently single cylinder tests achieved the equivalent of 5000 bhp for the complete engine. " :O Jun 02 16:42:51 kario: I don't mean turbodiesel - the diesotto engine runs on petrol Jun 02 16:43:19 kario: but uses it in direct injection Jun 02 16:43:35 hmm Jun 02 16:43:51 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DiesOtto Jun 02 16:43:58 Variable absolutely everything. Jun 02 16:45:19 Nice ideas ! Jun 02 16:45:20 SpeedEvil: computer controlled to the maximum.. Jun 02 16:45:38 isprins: pretty much Jun 02 16:46:08 I see no real reason why it couldn't be a truly flex-fuel engine. Jun 02 16:46:10 old diesels can be started up, an you can turn of the igition and remove the battery.. it still runs Jun 02 16:46:15 diesel, petrol, alcohol Jun 02 16:46:25 thanks mmontour Jun 02 16:46:31 coal dust. Jun 02 16:46:45 vodka Jun 02 16:46:46 has that patch been accepted ? Jun 02 16:47:01 Speed: the germans used coul dust for steam locomotive fuel Jun 02 16:47:07 isprins: I know Jun 02 16:47:11 coal* Jun 02 16:47:19 isprins: and there have been coal dust injected test engines I think. Jun 02 16:47:31 Speed: do you know about the "dovregubben" class ? Jun 02 16:48:12 No. Jun 02 16:49:00 speed: a stem loc, produced locally in Norway.. it impressed the hell out of the german engineers Jun 02 16:49:07 steam* Jun 02 16:49:35 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NSB_Class_49 Jun 02 16:50:04 I live in Hamar Jun 02 16:51:09 maximum power vas avout 3000 HP... Jun 02 16:52:16 " ze power tzo weight ratzio is wery good" Jun 02 16:52:39 DEZARM ZE DYNAMAJT! Jun 02 16:53:41 that loc was on a showof tour down to gremany, and the germans took it for a ride ( they were not supposed to ) and the got quite impressed Jun 02 16:54:50 speedevil can tell us all about his fellow countryman james watt now ! Jun 02 16:55:05 they wanted to know the specs on the boiler.. that loc used a good deal of new construction methods like lectric welding of the frame Jun 02 16:55:47 openmoko: 03thomas * r4467 10/trunk/src/target/opkg/libopkg/pkg_hash.c: opkg: update error message Jun 02 16:56:51 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_Pacific_Big_Boy :O huge! Jun 02 16:57:12 * SpeedEvil raises 3000 Watts in James Watts honor. Jun 02 17:07:04 +30 degrees celsius indoors :S Jun 02 17:07:43 :( Jun 02 17:07:45 what is the status of MIDP 2.0 support in OM? Jun 02 17:13:51 Someone on the jalimo project would probably be best to answer that Q Jun 02 17:14:02 I don't see much java traffic in this room Jun 02 17:18:46 what was the question about jalimo? Jun 02 17:18:57 anybody tried compiling telepathy-glib ( also connection managers ) and mission-control for openmoko? Jun 02 17:19:15 tomboy64 asked: s [n=darktear@lan31-6-82-238-147-227.fbx.proxa Jun 02 17:19:25 above was to cekay Jun 02 17:19:35 ScaredyCat: I haven't sent that patch to the mailing list yet - too busy with other stuff Jun 02 17:20:00 wurp2: do i take it correctly that the jalimo project is the mobile java support for om? Jun 02 17:20:17 yeah that's correct tomboy64 Jun 02 17:20:29 thank you guys :) Jun 02 17:21:43 tomboy64, we haven't that traffic in #jalimo, but you're always welcome to ask any questions Jun 02 17:24:37 i know :) Jun 02 17:24:48 but thanks for the assurance Jun 02 17:34:40 openmoko: 03jeremy * r4468 10/developers/jeremy/ (19 files in 3 dirs): Jun 02 17:34:40 openmoko: 2008-06-03 Jeremy Chang Jun 02 17:34:40 openmoko: * Create maniac project - for test of system stability. Jun 02 17:35:21 With no activity, my neo1973 running at 266 MHz (the default) runs for 5:25 before the battery dies Jun 02 17:35:46 that's pretty good. which subsystems are powered? Jun 02 17:35:53 With no activity, my neo1973 underclocked to 200 MHz runs for almost exactly 6 hours before the battery dies Jun 02 17:36:05 Just the default - gsm Jun 02 17:36:18 I'm going to try again with gps up Jun 02 17:36:25 I don't think it will significantly affect lifespan Jun 02 17:37:00 I would think that percentage-wise, running at 200 MHz would extend lifespan more with lots of activity than it does with no activity Jun 02 17:37:42 And it plays mp3s just fine at 200 MHz, which is frankly by far the highest cpu usage I care about Jun 02 17:37:55 i wonder what's the status of cesarb_'s cpufreq patches Jun 02 17:38:09 I don't think he's done anything in the last month or two Jun 02 17:38:19 He commented that he's been busy with other stuff recently Jun 02 17:38:33 Last I heard the only major stumbling block was getting USB to recover Jun 02 17:38:38 ok. ah btw., someone should build a kernel with the new notick stuff instead of the old one Jun 02 17:38:48 i would imagine this brings an improvement as well Jun 02 17:38:57 oh, good point! Jun 02 17:39:10 I need to see if I can get a build env set up on my Hardy box Jun 02 17:39:32 I did not have good luck with my Gutsy or my debian box :-/ Jun 02 17:39:54 hence my long bitch session about continuous integration on teh lists Jun 02 17:39:58 i was trying to compile the openmoko kernel using the makefile, when i just ran this make setup, i got d followin error /bin/sh: line 1: svn: command not found make: *** [setup-openmoko] Error 127 Jun 02 17:40:14 urpmi subversion Jun 02 17:40:16 can anyone help me Jun 02 17:40:28 or another package manager Jun 02 17:40:56 mass: looksl like you do not have make.. Jun 02 17:41:23 mass_stor: wht distribution do you use? Jun 02 17:42:21 i got a list of things downloaded wen i ran the make command and my directory holds 190mb of data Jun 02 17:43:01 i m using fedora 8 Jun 02 17:44:31 mass_stor: like mikey said, install the subversion package to your system. Jun 02 17:47:15 ya fine workin . but i hav a prob. I had installed ldap4 but this needs ldap2 package. If try to remove the ldap4 package i m getting some probs. Jun 02 17:47:56 openldap3 but i hav installed openldap4 Jun 02 17:48:14 mass_stor that should be backvards compatible Jun 02 17:48:39 ldap2 is just a older version of ldap4 Jun 02 17:49:07 actually ths says tat libldap2.3.so.0 is missing. Jun 02 17:50:18 mass_stor: If no one else has good suggestions, you might ln -s libldap.whatever.u.got.so* to libldap2.3.so.0 Jun 02 17:50:29 but that's an ugly hack, and it's only luck if it works :-/ Jun 02 17:50:48 maybe the header file is missing? Jun 02 17:52:09 http://rpm.pbone.net/index.php3/stat/4/idpl/5427446/com/libldap2.3-2.3.35-alt0.i586.rpm.html Jun 02 17:53:09 openmoko: 03werner * r4469 10/developers/werner/nbad/ (. Makefile README mtd-abi.h nbad.c): Jun 02 17:53:09 openmoko: Quick and dirty bad block information dumper. (Moved over from Jun 02 17:53:09 openmoko: svn.hxd8.internal.openmoko.org) Jun 02 17:54:53 mickeyl: Do you have any idea why the neo is using so much power? 3500 mWh / 6 hrs = ~580 mW Jun 02 17:55:15 but my math based on the Power page on the wiki shows it should be using about 340 mW Jun 02 17:55:16 a) low integration density Jun 02 17:55:21 b) current leakage Jun 02 17:55:28 c) old gsm firmware without deep sleep Jun 02 17:55:55 Well, I'm not using any sleep right now Jun 02 17:56:26 bad battery ? :P Jun 02 17:56:30 if you're using gsm, you're implicitly using deep sleep Jun 02 17:56:35 _if_ you have >= moko3 Jun 02 17:57:03 I am not moko >= moko3 Jun 02 17:57:08 some devices out there have moko1 Jun 02 17:57:15 is there only 1 dist. center in the usa? Jun 02 17:57:16 gsm deep sleep is not implemented there Jun 02 17:57:46 I am running a release from late April, I think Jun 02 17:57:57 well, it depends when you bought Jun 02 17:58:02 first batch shipped with moko1 Jun 02 17:58:07 second batch with moko4 Jun 02 17:58:07 iirc Jun 02 17:58:08 I was more questioning the big discrepancy between documented power usage and my power usage than why the documented power usage is so high Jun 02 17:58:11 wurp2 update it ? Jun 02 17:58:22 gsm firmware updater is not out Jun 02 17:58:36 Oh, then I must be moko4. I thought you were talking about the 2007.2 OM release; it sounds as if you're talking about gsm firmware Jun 02 17:58:50 yesm gsm firmware is called moko'x' Jun 02 17:58:54 MShiloh updated my firmware so I could use it with my AT&T SIM Jun 02 17:58:59 oh Jun 02 17:59:03 then it's probably moko8 Jun 02 17:59:06 So I must be on a later one Jun 02 17:59:15 libgmsd-util -m atcmd Jun 02 17:59:19 AT+CGMR Jun 02 17:59:21 will tell you Jun 02 17:59:25 OK, will try Jun 02 17:59:49 Are you saying that it will deep sleep even if I don't sleep my neo? Jun 02 17:59:54 yes Jun 02 18:00:16 cool; didn't know that... Jun 02 18:00:32 if there's no AT/GSM traffic, the modem enters a deep sleep mode Jun 02 18:00:44 this is built in the firmware Jun 02 18:01:06 moko6 Jun 02 18:01:18 good, that's definitely w/ deep sleep Jun 02 18:01:42 then we probably see the effects of a) and b) most Jun 02 18:02:19 freesmartphone.org: 03sudharsh * r80242c25c5ee 10/odeviced/plugins/wifi/ (wifi.c wifi.vala): changed dbus paths and interfaces to camel case Jun 02 18:02:20 freesmartphone.org: 03sudharsh * rbc8ec25e3740 10/odeviced/plugins/powercontrol/powercontrol.vala: add powercontrol.vala Jun 02 18:02:24 whats not hackable on Neo Freerunner ? Jun 02 18:02:54 only various autonomous devices Jun 02 18:03:23 I'm gonna take my battery voltage graphs and update checkFastCharge to give warning beeps when < 30 min charge remaining, and shutdown nicely when < 10 min remaining Jun 02 18:03:43 cool Jun 02 18:03:55 micke1: like the GSM bit? Jun 02 18:04:05 we're still missing proper battery reporting. unfortunately no one wants to do measurements Jun 02 18:04:16 gsm firmware is intentionally closed, bt and wifi firmware is closed at least until someone writes a replacement Jun 02 18:04:20 isprins: yep. gsm firmware is completely closed, otherwise you could not buy such a device Jun 02 18:05:13 mickey1: thats easy to understand.. Jun 02 18:05:41 *nod* Jun 02 18:05:45 some people don't though Jun 02 18:06:09 even RMS accepts a closed gsm firmware, but some people don't Jun 02 18:06:12 i bet the telecoms does not want anyone to have totaly free phones Jun 02 18:06:35 I think people (well, govts and mobile co.s) are deluding themselves on it, though Jun 02 18:06:46 sw radio is coming fast Jun 02 18:06:56 that's true Jun 02 18:06:59 yay pH5 Jun 02 18:07:05 wurp2 SW? Software Radio ? Jun 02 18:07:06 pH5: i thought you were coming to LT and we could have a chat? Jun 02 18:07:17 and after we get good bandwidth on it, any protocol for which you give away devices with a key on 'em is effectively open Jun 02 18:07:40 isprins: Yeah, it's already there, really, but the bandwidth and software for it will improve Jun 02 18:08:30 until you can monitor the whole gsm band directly, trivially. pub/priv key encryption is the next step, I guess (w/ each person having their own key) Jun 02 18:08:54 I dunno what is ph5 Jun 02 18:09:10 wurp2: i hope that the required bandwith for encrypted conversations will be a possibillity Jun 02 18:09:14 mickeyl he was there on friday Jun 02 18:09:24 mickeyl got his ticket from florian Jun 02 18:09:28 hi mickeyl, I was. I messed that up. Jun 02 18:09:31 I was at the OM booth on saturday morning and then around the OE booth for the rest of the day. Jun 02 18:09:43 ooh Jun 02 18:09:44 bummer Jun 02 18:09:49 isprins: It shouldn't require much more bw Jun 02 18:10:04 sup Jun 02 18:10:22 wurp2: cool.. but the problem is that calls can be traced Jun 02 18:10:29 sure Jun 02 18:11:00 You could avoid that, but every device would have to chatter to every other device basically all the time, whether it has something to say or not Jun 02 18:11:07 mickeyl: even saw you once in the crowd somewhere, but didn't immediately jump. when I was looking for you you were already gone. Jun 02 18:11:36 ah, now I see what is ph5 ;-) Jun 02 18:11:46 wurp2: a possible solution is to use WLAN for that, and use a external directional antenna and a free axxess point Jun 02 18:12:00 pH5: heh, sorry. it was _really_ busy ;) Jun 02 18:12:15 isprins: sure Jun 02 18:13:05 I don't think it's really a big deal; my main point was just that these silly people thinking that restricting mass manufacture of devices to give low level access to part of the radio spectrum is going to solve anything Jun 02 18:13:25 are crazy, at least in anything past the immediate short term Jun 02 18:14:10 as long they stay away from the ham bands, i dont mind Jun 02 18:15:06 isprins: but it would be cool to use it on ham bands, eg for packed radio Jun 02 18:15:34 tedo: yes AX protocol. Jun 02 18:15:50 tedo: but you need a license then :P Jun 02 18:16:31 isprins: of course :) Jun 02 18:17:03 tedo: thats not a problem here :P Got my LA call in 2000 Jun 02 18:17:27 <- LA1RMA Jun 02 18:17:47 isprins: it' pretty easy here, too. got mine 15 years ago (DL5YFD) Jun 02 18:18:09 tedo: nice :) what modes do you run? Jun 02 18:19:28 isprins: i'm more into electronics than into operating... Jun 02 18:20:14 teo: ok, i run Modes:MFSK (MFSK16 and MFSK8) RTTY THROB PSK31 ,PSK63 ,MT63,Feldhell Jun 02 18:20:14 old stuff : DOWENTRON RTTY TU, SIEMENS T-100 TTY MACHINE for RTTY TRAFFIC (not in use due to lack of operating space ) Jun 02 18:20:50 openmoko: 03jeremy * r4470 10/developers/jeremy/maniac/data/ (. maniac_svn.bb): Jun 02 18:20:50 openmoko: 2008-06-03 Jeremy Chang Jun 02 18:20:50 openmoko: * add a bb file for maniac project. Jun 02 18:23:55 http://www.teleprinter.net/german/index.html Jun 02 18:24:50 isprins: :) Jun 02 18:29:05 tedo: http://www.buzbee.net/heavymetal/index.htm Jun 02 18:33:08 isprins: i think the freerunner would be a nice aprs device... Jun 02 18:33:35 tedo: yes, that should not be that hard to do.. Jun 02 18:36:12 tedo: and possibillity to hook up a TTY machine and send SMS that way Jun 02 18:36:24 With battery. Jun 02 18:36:37 And trolley with large wheels. Jun 02 18:37:17 that would be really nice :) Jun 02 18:37:29 Or better. Jun 02 18:37:43 A steam-powered trolley with auxillary generator. Jun 02 18:37:51 SpeedEvil: you only nedd 230 volts.. but a trolly for the TTY unit is a good idea Jun 02 18:38:30 diesel generator. than you don't have to worry about the power management issues... Jun 02 18:38:45 Diesel is so 1930s though. Jun 02 18:39:13 SpeedEvil: TTY units was used up to the 80's Jun 02 18:39:20 I know. Jun 02 18:39:22 ok, not so modern as a TTY Jun 02 18:39:50 Hello, sorry to ask again but I was afk for a couple of hours. I was wondering if anyone knows if the neo freerunner works with SIM cards by the operator "Three". They have some weird stuff in them and don't work in all phones. Jun 02 18:40:08 ~logs Jun 02 18:40:09 i heard logs is apt/ibot/infobot/jbot/purl all log daily to http://ibot.rikers.org// where channelname is html encoded ie: %23debian | lines that start with a space are not shown | some channels have stats at http://ibot.rikers.org/stats/.html.gz Jun 02 18:42:10 shurdeek: Have you checked the wiki? Or asked someone in your country that has tried, might be some in this channel. (Ireland?) Jun 02 18:43:04 CM: I checked the wiki and community mailing list and google, sadly "three" is interpreted usually as a number Jun 02 18:43:23 Heh, in Sweden it's even called 3 Jun 02 18:43:25 I need it primarily in Ireland and a little in Austria. Jun 02 18:43:30 Is it possible to see o2's homezone icon on the freerunner? Jun 02 18:43:48 if I google for 3, chances it will find something relevant to the operator are even lower :-) Jun 02 18:44:15 shurdeek: nah, Openmoko is a 'free' phone. Jun 02 18:44:20 * cyrilRomain gets out ... Jun 02 18:44:23 shurdeek: Why not just get a cash card or so if it doesn't work? Jun 02 18:45:04 i tried a 3 SIM in an unlocked iphone and that didnt work Jun 02 18:45:06 I already have a phone (SE W950) but want to replace it with freerunner. Jun 02 18:45:53 the sim card has unlimited data and I still have half a year on my contract Jun 02 18:46:34 sadly I don't know what is the special feature of the 3 sim card that prevents it from running on some phones Jun 02 18:46:45 i cudn install libldap package as its dependancy- glibc-core conflicts with the already intalled package glibc Jun 02 18:47:15 I tried it with: moto razr 3xxx (works), SE w950 (Works), some chinese CETC crap (does not work), some old samsung (does not work) Jun 02 18:47:42 mass_stor: you could try to install subversion from source. But you need the relevant dev libraries for this. Jun 02 18:47:42 isprins: i cudn install libldap package as its dependancy- glibc-core conflicts with the already intalled package glibc Jun 02 18:48:17 actually, is there a chance openmoko would run on SE W950? Jun 02 18:50:08 shurdeek: If you can get a linux kernel to boot in it you have a start ;) Jun 02 18:50:21 :-) Jun 02 18:53:08 i tried to extract it myself.... but then i get the error libldap-2.3.so.0: wrong ELF class: ELFCLASS64 Jun 02 19:05:10 mass_stor: That sounds as if you're extracting a 64 bit version of libldap onto your 32 bit machine Jun 02 19:08:55 freesmartphone.org: 03jluebbe * racf8a72617c6 10/src/gsm0710muxd.c: Jun 02 19:08:55 freesmartphone.org: Increase delay before talking to the modem Jun 02 19:08:55 freesmartphone.org: This allows the muxer to work on preproduction GTA01Bv4 devices. Jun 02 19:10:36 sumhow i got rid of tat problem. now i finished the make. now how can i configure the modules and stuff for my build? Jun 02 19:11:13 http://www.buzbee.net/video/Teletype-Web.WMV Jun 02 19:12:22 mass:stor you did not do ./configure ? Jun 02 19:16:45 isprins: can u make it clear. when shud i hav done it? Jun 02 19:17:18 mass_stor: are you compiling from source? Jun 02 19:17:40 no i m doin it using makefile Jun 02 19:18:04 mass_stor: Normally the sequence for installing from source is: ./configure && make && sudo make install Jun 02 19:18:41 running that in the directory in which you unzipped the source Jun 02 19:18:57 during the ./configure, u wud be setting all the options and drivers that u need. am i right? Jun 02 19:19:32 mass_stor it finds out the varibales Jun 02 19:19:41 It normally figures it all out itself Jun 02 19:19:51 http://www.eng.hawaii.edu/Tutor/Make/ Jun 02 19:19:54 Or it errors out with some message giving hints for what you need to do Jun 02 19:22:45 k now i find a conf file in the dir: src/target/kernel if i edit the variables in it, ll i get the appropriate image Jun 02 19:23:01 Actually i need to set my device in mass storage mode.. Jun 02 19:23:34 Hrm, you normally don't need to manually edit Jun 02 19:23:53 then how can i do it? Jun 02 19:23:54 Is there not an executable file called 'configure' in the root of the directory structure you unzipped? Jun 02 19:24:58 mass_stor: the commando ./configure finds out of your system, what you have, and it messges you on screen if something is wrong Jun 02 19:25:35 mass_stor : it altso generates a file where it stores the variables used during make. Jun 02 19:25:36 I love typos Jun 02 19:26:32 I picture ./configure tramping through your system, pointing an AK47 at various subsystems and demanding 'YOU! WHAT'S YOUR VERSION?!' '...' 'OK, you can go.' 'YOU THERE, WHAT'S YOUR VERSION...' Jun 02 19:27:00 wurp2: haha, sort of :P Jun 02 19:29:15 wurp2: i always imagined it for a Tiger tank with a 88mm gun :S Jun 02 19:30:31 isprins: u win Jun 02 19:31:30 anyone know if it's possible in gsm to get the strength & id of each tower in range? Jun 02 19:31:42 wurp2, should be, yes Jun 02 19:31:49 wurp2, use the gsm cli Jun 02 19:32:00 engineering mode commands, IIRC, for the Calypso Jun 02 19:32:07 The normal messages I see just include id & strength of strongest/"best" tower Jun 02 19:32:14 however gsm defines best Jun 02 19:32:22 presumably strongest in-network Jun 02 19:32:33 Right, that's the tower it is currently associated with, to use the wifi analogy Jun 02 19:32:55 daMaestro: I am using it; I just dunno what to send it to get the more detailed info Jun 02 19:35:14 wurp2: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/GTA01_gsm_modem#AT.25EM Jun 02 19:38:34 * doc|work keeps having people bail out on his group Jun 02 19:38:41 had 10 phones on saturday, now down to 7 :/ Jun 02 19:38:50 mwester: Thanks! Jun 02 19:38:53 will have to go with the overall canadian group :/ Jun 02 19:39:05 I thought I had looked at that page before, but I guess not Jun 02 19:39:14 There are 3 or 4 gsm pages on the wiki :-/ Jun 02 19:42:16 Oh, it's proprietary. No wonder I hadn't seen it yet in the other references I was reviewing. Jun 02 20:03:50 when i m about to make my image, i get the following message and i stops. Jun 02 20:03:56 ERROR: Openembedded's config sanity checker detected a potential misconfiguration. Either fix the cause of this error or at your own risk disable the checker (see sanity.conf). Following is the list of potential problems / advisories: Do not use Bitbake as root. make: *** [openmoko-devel-image] Error 1 Jun 02 20:04:31 It sounds as if you shouldn't be root while running the build Jun 02 20:10:58 ;;;:q Jun 02 20:11:02 arg. Jun 02 20:11:08 but hello, all. Jun 02 20:14:42 lo ferric Jun 02 20:41:03 Do not use Bitbake as root. Jun 02 20:41:05 make: *** [openmoko-devel-image] Error 1 Jun 02 20:41:33 i got this error while trying to make my kernel image Jun 02 20:41:58 i tried it as an ordinary user. thats not the problwm Jun 02 20:42:27 You're not running with sudo either, I presume Jun 02 20:43:39 i cudn install as a normal user bcos it errs as it cudn find any packages that i had instaled previously Jun 02 20:43:58 ya i didn try as a sudo user Jun 02 20:46:33 wurp2: shud i do config changes or wat went wrong? Jun 02 20:48:24 mass_stor: What's the output of whoami? Jun 02 20:49:07 wats whoami? Jun 02 20:50:31 mass_stor: it's a command Jun 02 20:52:05 i tried it in normal user then it was antony. and as the packages were not available there i tried it as a root user... sorry i m new to these cmds Jun 02 20:53:00 What packages do you mean when you say "the packages were not available"? Jun 02 20:53:40 Running MokoMakefile is just fine under your regular user Jun 02 20:55:04 i installed many the packages to use the make cmd. bfore installing those packages i used to get an error msg wen i issued the make cmd. Now in the normal user even inspite of having all d packages, i get the SAME error which i got when there wasn all packages Jun 02 20:55:49 the error exactly statin that bitbake cmds r not available Jun 02 20:57:49 What command are you entering on the command line and what is the error? Jun 02 20:57:56 (as your normal user, that is) Jun 02 20:58:17 cmd: make openmoko-devel-image Jun 02 20:58:36 error is : /bin/sh: line 1: bitbake: command not found make: *** [openmoko-devel-image] Error 127 Jun 02 21:00:23 mass_stor: check that the paths are correct in your "setup-env" file (in the same dir as the Makefile) Jun 02 21:00:35 mass_stor: Did you do a "make setup"? Jun 02 21:01:06 Hi again Jun 02 21:01:15 hellos Jun 02 21:06:21 Something confuses me. On the product page of the neo (http://openmoko.com/products-neo-base-00-stdkit.html), "Integrated AGPS" is said to be part of the phone, but in the whishlist (http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Wish_List_-_Hardware#Galileo.2FGLONASS.2FGPS_receiver) it's said that "A multi-standard satellite positioning module would be nice". Jun 02 21:06:53 theocrite: maybe the person meant galileo Jun 02 21:07:08 Does that means that neo has a GPS system, but this doesn't work with galileo and glonass ? Jun 02 21:07:09 theocrite: gps is definitely in there :-) Jun 02 21:07:17 "multi-standard" would mean supporting more than just the USA's NAVSTAR GPS Jun 02 21:07:21 theocrite: yeah, gps works Jun 02 21:07:43 Ok thank you, i just wanted to be sure. This is too subtle for my poor english skills. Jun 02 21:08:30 Your english skills are far superior to my whatever-your-native-language skills are ;-) Jun 02 21:09:09 Too bad that it isn't galileo compatible :/ (And also i still can't buy it, i'm more impatient than a kid before santa) Jun 02 21:09:20 I'm french ;) Jun 02 21:09:28 theocrite: galileo won't be up and running till 2015 or so ;) Jun 02 21:09:36 There are NO galileo compatible chips YET afaik Jun 02 21:09:39 theocrite: by that time you'll have yout gta05 Jun 02 21:09:49 s/yout/your Jun 02 21:10:01 Bonjour monsieur, voici une baguette et de croissants. voulez vous coucher avec moi ? Jun 02 21:10:08 (see you can understand french) Jun 02 21:10:11 Not sure about glonass, probably only military Jun 02 21:10:16 Heh Jun 02 21:10:25 Je ne parl pas Francais Jun 02 21:10:34 and obvious stuff like yours, is my limit Jun 02 21:10:37 Bonjour, merci, et non. Jun 02 21:11:00 FR only talk navstar Jun 02 21:11:22 I haven't heard anyone complain about not getting gps fix outside no matter their location Jun 02 21:11:41 A few ppl seem to have general gps issues, but I don't think they're location dependent Jun 02 21:11:45 Ich spreche nicht deutsch, nie movie po polsku, no habla espanol, i don't speak english. Jun 02 21:11:53 maybe in northern corea. there are some places in the world Jun 02 21:11:57 s/nicht/kein/ Jun 02 21:12:00 theocrite: you do speak english! Jun 02 21:12:05 s/habla/hablo/ Jun 02 21:12:16 edistar: according to wikipedia, galileo will be usable around 2010 and fully functionnal in 2013 Jun 02 21:12:29 I know how to say "I can't speak your language" in several languages ;-) Jun 02 21:12:30 theocrite: yeah, but everything will take longer as usual.. Jun 02 21:12:40 it's a project by the EU.. Jun 02 21:12:44 wurp2: i made mistakes, which confirms that i don't speak this language ;) Jun 02 21:12:48 true Jun 02 21:13:36 edistar: that's true, but as far as i know, it will be way better than the old good GPS. Jun 02 21:13:49 no idea if it will Jun 02 21:13:57 But anyway, a GPS receiver will still be better than no GPS at all (like now for me) Jun 02 21:14:06 and it will then be in the gta05 ;) Jun 02 21:14:17 what's wrong with navstar (other than it's no eu-proj)? Jun 02 21:14:29 by that time the bus to the glamo will be _so_ ridiculous that noone will want to use a gta02 Jun 02 21:14:48 jOERG_rw: that in theory the us could switch it off every moment Jun 02 21:15:30 you bet they switch off galileo then as well - one way or ANOTHER ;-) Jun 02 21:15:53 I just hope that i'll be able to buy a neo before i'll be able to download hurd 1.0 Jun 02 21:16:04 starwars proj not dead Jun 02 21:16:07 You can buy a neo now Jun 02 21:16:20 Got to ebay and search for neo1973 or gta01 ;-) Jun 02 21:16:23 you mean freerunner Jun 02 21:16:34 well, both are neos Jun 02 21:16:40 I'm just being a pedantic ass Jun 02 21:16:51 hms Jun 02 21:16:57 or, maybe, being helpful because he doesn't know neo1973 is available... Jun 02 21:17:06 *g* Jun 02 21:17:16 * theocrite will take a look Jun 02 21:17:26 hurray, nut too much time and gta02 is out :D Jun 02 21:17:35 surf2me: just 3 more months! :P Jun 02 21:17:43 pffff Jun 02 21:17:54 huh? i thought it was this month? Jun 02 21:18:04 theocrite: it's sold out, but you get used ones and some are still on stock on pulster.de Jun 02 21:18:05 neo1973 cpu is half speed, but I don't think that will matter much. Power management is probably significantly better in FreeRunner, and FR has wifi + accelerometers Jun 02 21:18:13 Otherwise I think they're pretty much equal Jun 02 21:18:24 wurp2: You forgot the unholy glamo Jun 02 21:18:24 surf2me: just a joke, I have no idea Jun 02 21:18:30 Oh, good point Jun 02 21:18:36 i hope it's no vesporware :o Jun 02 21:18:37 video is much better (for now) on neo1973 Jun 02 21:18:40 and maybe forever :-( Jun 02 21:18:56 wurp2: Not forever, fortunately Jun 02 21:19:10 abraxa__: how ? Jun 02 21:19:21 CVirus: Glamo got the boot for GTA03 Jun 02 21:19:23 abraxa__: You think so? Carsten seemed dubious about 320x240 full speed video on FR Jun 02 21:19:31 did i read right? a version will implement galileo? Jun 02 21:19:32 and I've seen it in action on neo1973 Jun 02 21:19:36 * jOERG_rw is looking on his "vaporware" - touching it... ;-) Jun 02 21:19:54 surf2me in next generations maybee Jun 02 21:19:56 abraxa__: huh ? Jun 02 21:20:00 oh, sry ;) vaporware :D Jun 02 21:20:12 CVirus: "huh?" is such a... generic question ;) Jun 02 21:20:15 that would be wonderful :) Jun 02 21:20:35 * edistar wonders why everyone wants galileo so much.. Jun 02 21:20:36 abraxa__: what do you mean glamo got the boot for gta03 ? Jun 02 21:20:48 * mwester has a vaporware on his desk, too Jun 02 21:20:52 jOERG_rw: 'Preis: EUR 0.00 ' oO Jun 02 21:20:53 CVirus: Glamo will not be part of GTA03 Jun 02 21:21:01 ah ok Jun 02 21:21:07 edistar: i think it's the first useful european project that does something with esa? *weird* Jun 02 21:21:08 abraxa__: what is GTA02 using ? Jun 02 21:21:31 theocrite: for ME this is correct price ;-) Jun 02 21:21:33 CVirus: The glamo. Jun 02 21:21:36 people don't even know how accurate it will be in real-life Jun 02 21:21:38 hehe Jun 02 21:21:40 Is glamo the real issue? I thought the issue is that they put the video bus on the sd card bus Jun 02 21:21:48 abraxa__: not kdrive ? Jun 02 21:22:00 I can't understand deutsch anyway Jun 02 21:22:01 wurp2: no, the glamo is the issue Jun 02 21:22:01 CVirus: I'm talking about hardware :) Jun 02 21:22:02 Or did glamo somehow drive them to do that Jun 02 21:22:10 abraxa__: hmm .. what is glamo ? Jun 02 21:22:27 CVirus: glamo is the graphics chip Jun 02 21:22:35 CVirus: and it also provides the bus for SD Jun 02 21:22:40 I thought glamo was like a tiny Xorg or something Jun 02 21:22:43 theocrite: better :D Jun 02 21:23:01 not this good language Jun 02 21:23:02 Yes, the glamo is the issue, in the sense that it does not well-support full VGA Jun 02 21:23:06 edistar: Oh, so glamo is the *reason* the video bus speed is limited by the sd bus speed Jun 02 21:23:06 so GTA02 is using Kdrive .. right ? Jun 02 21:23:36 wurp2: yeah Jun 02 21:24:26 * jOERG_rw is going to have a beer now Jun 02 21:24:49 wurp2: well.. the video bus is limit anyway because glamo can only do *insert slow byte/sec here* and the SD transfer also has to go via that bus Jun 02 21:25:03 7Mbute/sec Jun 02 21:25:07 y Jun 02 21:25:14 SpeedEvil: thx Jun 02 21:25:28 And it's worse than that in that the CPU needs to busy-wait Jun 02 21:25:30 (which isn't really so bad for displays in the QVGA size range) Jun 02 21:25:44 so 3M/second SD transfer uses 40% CPU Jun 02 21:26:16 i'm asking myself in the moment, why freerunner will be such expensive. Is the cpu this expensive? Jun 02 21:26:27 A) Low volume Jun 02 21:26:33 B) No subsidy Jun 02 21:26:37 C) Underpants Jun 02 21:26:46 D) Screen Jun 02 21:26:55 E) Elephant Jun 02 21:27:02 oh, i forgot about the screen :( Jun 02 21:27:10 Oh btw, can we use ssh on the neo ? Jun 02 21:27:14 yes Jun 02 21:27:15 theocrite: of course Jun 02 21:27:56 oh ok thanks. It probably was obvious, but i couldn't remember if i read it :p Jun 02 21:28:18 it's linux! and open.. Jun 02 21:28:25 theocrite: neo is linux mini-laptop (-keyboard) + full bluetooth + gps + gsm + 640x480 touchscreen + 1 usb port Jun 02 21:28:25 theocrite, you can do EVERYTHING that you can do on a normal computer and that is not limited by the hardware Jun 02 21:28:43 and neo FR is that + wifi + accelerometers Jun 02 21:28:51 if openmoko is the limitation you can even install debian and have 8000+ package Jun 02 21:28:52 aswesome :) Jun 02 21:28:55 theocrite: I think it uses this http://matt.ucc.asn.au/dropbear/dropbear.html Jun 02 21:29:07 Of course, if you want to port drivers & use a Y cord you can use wifi on the neo1973 Jun 02 21:29:19 CVirus: you can also compile openssh if you want to Jun 02 21:29:24 sure thing Jun 02 21:29:29 that's what I'll do for sure Jun 02 21:29:43 I'll try to make lighttpd run on this then Jun 02 21:29:47 Just for fun Jun 02 21:29:48 Why? More trust? Jun 02 21:29:55 ^^ CVirus ^^ Jun 02 21:29:55 theocrite: that'll be easy.. Jun 02 21:29:59 I want asterisk running on this thing Jun 02 21:30:02 wurp2: exactly Jun 02 21:30:03 theocrite, alrady working... Jun 02 21:30:04 opkg install lighttpd Jun 02 21:30:09 lol Jun 02 21:30:10 one question, then i'll leave you alone ;) What is this great display? It has a very high resolution for its size Jun 02 21:30:21 lighttpd is in oe Jun 02 21:30:21 2.8" VGA Jun 02 21:30:21 SpeedEvil: VGA Jun 02 21:30:25 so the moko has it Jun 02 21:30:25 The display is beautiful Jun 02 21:30:29 But... Jun 02 21:30:46 it isn't very cheap is it? Jun 02 21:30:48 No real sw to take advantage of the beauty yet, and size of touchscreen + high bevel is a pain Jun 02 21:30:52 aesterisk too Jun 02 21:30:55 I want my FreeRunner NOW !!!!!11111ONE11COSINE(ZERO) Jun 02 21:31:05 CVirus: me too :D Jun 02 21:31:10 lol Jun 02 21:31:12 CVirus: where are u from? Jun 02 21:31:14 2.8" touchscreen QVGA is on the order of $25 Jun 02 21:31:19 surf2me: Egypt Jun 02 21:31:29 VGA is maybe $60 as I understand it. Jun 02 21:31:41 surf2me: what for ? Jun 02 21:31:58 CVirus: I like the cosine(0) Jun 02 21:32:03 hehe Jun 02 21:32:04 For the display size, I think -$35 to quarter the resolution probably would have been a good trade-off Jun 02 21:32:07 CVirus: just, if you were from near me, we could buy it then together, but that's too far away from me Jun 02 21:32:14 surf2me: where are you ? Jun 02 21:32:19 CVirus: Austria Jun 02 21:32:36 surf2me: I won't be able to do a group order ... GPS devices are forbidden in this stupid country Jun 02 21:32:37 wurp2, With the inability to handle video at the full res, I would tend to agree. :( Jun 02 21:32:44 Can we recompile the kernel without the developpement kit ? Jun 02 21:32:52 omg :o Jun 02 21:32:56 Something like 420*320'd be nice Jun 02 21:33:15 CVirus: I can sell you one with no GPS for only a small markup. Jun 02 21:33:29 a high resolution is also good for instance to watch films on it :) Jun 02 21:33:31 I do want GPS Jun 02 21:33:32 285dpi is too much. Jun 02 21:33:41 CVirus: lol, no gps? Jun 02 21:33:45 120dpi is too little Jun 02 21:33:48 CVirus: why care about GPS when you have galileo :) Jun 02 21:33:52 I'll buy you for a big hug, ok ? Jun 02 21:33:59 I wonder what that is Jun 02 21:34:05 summatusmentis: there are two galileo test sats up Jun 02 21:34:11 surf2me: you can't get a position. Jun 02 21:34:34 heh, not from 2 sats you can't... Jun 02 21:34:45 Well - you can use it like transit, with an onboard atomic clock. Jun 02 21:35:23 SpeedEvil: I asume that was not directed at me? Jun 02 21:35:31 ah, ok. However i don't know for what do you need it for Jun 02 21:35:51 summatusmentis: sorry Jun 02 21:36:01 surf2me: me ? Jun 02 21:36:11 CVirus: yes, you :) Jun 02 21:36:27 surf2me: who doesn't need GPS ! Jun 02 21:36:34 CVirus: me Jun 02 21:37:01 we almost don't have GPS maps here in Egypt .. but I'm leaving the country soon anyways Jun 02 21:37:10 so a GPS device would be really useful anywere else Jun 02 21:37:11 cvirus hm Jun 02 21:37:21 CVirus: is there yahoo ariel coverage? Jun 02 21:37:23 cvirus still problems with in egypt? Jun 02 21:37:31 a food Jun 02 21:37:52 SpeedEvil: huh ? Jun 02 21:38:15 woglinde: Egypt is full of problems Jun 02 21:38:29 CVirus: You could scan a map of your city, physically go to the corners of the map and record gps lat/lon, then put the map in tangogps Jun 02 21:38:29 CVirus: I was meaning from the using for tracing for mapping purposes. Jun 02 21:38:30 cvirus okay Jun 02 21:38:52 wurp2: that's a really nice idea Jun 02 21:38:55 yeah, CVirus you could do that Jun 02 21:39:58 Egypt is fine, for navigation, it's just they need to put up a few hundred more of those handy triangulation points. Jun 02 21:40:15 They are all in one spot for some reason. Jun 02 21:40:30 And the maintainance sucks. Jun 02 21:40:43 i have to say good n8. thank you for your answers Jun 02 21:40:51 nite surf2me Jun 02 21:41:18 g'9t Jun 02 21:43:30 Anyone know if there's a standard AT command to check if you have voicemail messages waiting? Jun 02 21:44:21 Or USSD would be just as good Jun 02 21:44:28 wurp no time to read the gsm standard? Jun 02 21:44:59 :) I'm gonna take a guess and say it might be something like AT+VCMI or AT+CVMI -- I saw it in the context of unsolicited messages the other day, actually... Jun 02 21:45:53 woglinde: Well, the standard is big and spread out over many pages, and if someone already knows (thanks, mwester!) then it's much faster for them to tell me than me to search dozens of pages Jun 02 21:46:26 in short, yeah Jun 02 21:46:47 Using Qtopia, I get SMS messages from "129" when that status changes. Jun 02 21:47:18 Qtopia has a voicemail status indicator? Jun 02 21:53:25 Not exactly. Jun 02 21:53:50 What I'm saying is that, at least for me, changes in voicemail status are indicated through Qtopia as an incoming SMS. Jun 02 21:54:31 Perhaps it's just interpreted that way, or perhaps the voicemail indicator is simply a toggle flipped by a blank SMS from a given number. Jun 02 21:54:36 wow, weird Jun 02 21:54:56 I get one if I get a new message OR if I call voice mail and the message is removed from "new" status. Jun 02 21:55:19 Fido (Canada) also sends an SMS indicating the number of voicemail messages Jun 02 21:55:50 argh, I was hoping for a provider-independent way of checking Jun 02 21:56:06 Hrm... Jun 02 21:56:16 I don't get number of messages. :) Just a blank SMS Jun 02 21:56:34 or, preferably, getting an unsolicited message when you first get a voicemail, or when you first log into the network and you have voicemail Jun 02 21:57:04 For me, it's that simple. :P Jun 02 21:57:15 When I have an SMS from 129, I check voice mail. Jun 02 22:03:26 kdean06: I assume the fast charge script works fine for you on the late April & early May releases you tested? Jun 02 22:03:58 I've not tested it on the ASU, but it's worked everywhere else. Jun 02 22:04:18 'cause I have made some changes to it (weeks ago) and my changed version seems to almost always die the first time it's supposed to go into fast charge, when it starts as a part of boot Jun 02 22:04:23 OK, good Jun 02 22:04:34 then I've introduced a bug rather than something changing in OM that makes it barf Jun 02 22:04:46 I'll have to install the original & inspect code to figure out what's wrong Jun 02 22:06:14 I'm gonna add low battery alert & emergency shutdown once I am confident in my battery voltage curves Jun 02 22:06:23 and I get this other stupid bug fixed Jun 02 22:06:41 then I'll get it on projects.openmoko.org & announce a new release Jun 02 22:06:51 Of course, at my standard rate of doing things that's weeks away :-( Jun 03 00:07:53 is it out yet? Jun 03 00:08:19 read the topic Jun 03 00:09:22 maybe the topic is outdated :p Jun 03 00:09:28 i dont trust it Jun 03 00:09:39 pfff im just kidding Jun 03 00:09:51 but a little info on whats going on would harm anyone Jun 03 00:13:15 aggtrfrad: i think they're fixing the flux capacitors at the factory atm Jun 03 00:15:02 lol Jun 03 00:15:19 aggtrfrad, now.. that ^ would be a not trustworthy /topic Jun 03 00:15:28 hehe Jun 03 00:16:01 * mwester curses loudly, and tears up the money order he was addressing. Jun 03 00:16:10 HAHAHHAHA Jun 03 00:18:22 daMaestro: can i has ma frerunnr plz plz plz Jun 03 00:18:27 daMaestro: can i has ma frerunnr plz plz plz Jun 03 00:18:28 daMaestro: can i has ma frerunnr plz plz plz Jun 03 00:19:10 CVirus, sure Jun 03 00:19:21 CVirus, /dcc daMaestro $100000000000.99 Jun 03 00:19:30 and i'll DCC you back the hardware Jun 03 00:19:41 culz Jun 03 01:05:29 maybe ASU really means "Another Software Update" Jun 03 01:19:35 At last I could update my ssh key on repo.or.cz! Jun 03 02:04:19 cesarb ? Jun 03 02:04:29 <_jr> balrog-kun: afaik they're fixing the testsoftware to have less false negatives. GTA02-design is frozen (otherwise I had some suggestions) Jun 03 02:07:15 roh: The ssh key I was using was one of the "compromised" Debian/Ubuntu OpenSSH keys Jun 03 02:08:08 <_jr> cesarb: hmmm... (ToBad a sad story) Jun 03 02:08:12 roh: repo was the only place I hadn't changed my key yet (it didn't have a key-change cgi, and pasky (the admin) seemed off the net) Jun 03 02:08:33 _jr: that didn't prevent me from pushing my repo to it, only made it possible for everyone else to do the same ;-) Jun 03 02:09:03 <_jr> ;-) Jun 03 02:10:15 * _jr says: sorry for delay. Using open WiFi of some neighbour. bad signal though... ;-( Jun 03 02:12:08 cesarb ;) Jun 03 02:13:41 crsarb: anyone did? Jun 03 02:14:46 s/crsarb/cesarb/ Jun 03 02:14:47 jOERG_rw meant: cesarb: anyone did? Jun 03 02:17:37 yea, neighbours can sometimes be real asses when it comes to providing quality WiFi for free :p Jun 03 02:17:38 jOERG_rw: nobody I noticed. If anyone used H D Moore's database, it wasn't to play with obscure chip-specific linux git push mirrors. Jun 03 02:18:36 balrog-kun: at work the "neighbours" are really friendly when it comes to unprotected WiFi (ours, however, is reasonably protected) Jun 03 02:19:41 cesarb well... i am still wondering if anybody would want to bet how long it takes till the last person has exchanged their key on projects... Jun 03 02:20:39 it has a blacklist in place now, so the keys are unusable to open the box... still wondering (people can still update their keys via the webif) Jun 03 02:20:48 keep in mind that a lot of keys weren't generated on compromised systems and don't need replacing. Jun 03 02:21:14 the blacklist only blocks the known compromised keys Jun 03 02:21:32 even then.. i would suggest anybody using a dsa key, putting that into the bin Jun 03 02:21:46 bes switch to a new, longer rsa key completely. Jun 03 02:21:48 roh: ssh-vulnkey -a should tell you which ones are bad Jun 03 02:21:56 yeah, I suppose its good practice to change them once in a while. Jun 03 02:22:02 roh: we have at least three cases... Jun 03 02:22:07 cesarb i know. and the sshd used the same list to block the bad keys Jun 03 02:22:30 roh: the careless don't use ssh keys unless forced to, and will only change the key if it gets blacklisted, which it will because it will be the default size Jun 03 02:23:00 roh: the reasonable use ssh keys of default size and already changed them some days or a couple of weeks after the announcement (if they're slow) Jun 03 02:23:17 but still dsa keys used even once with a compromised system, while technically the key isnt blacklistable, one who sniffed the connection could calculate the privatekey Jun 03 02:23:35 roh: the utterly paranoid have nonstandard high-grade key sizes, and don't need blacklisting because they changed the key on ALL the systems they access IN THE VERY SAME DAY the announcement came out Jun 03 02:23:43 thus all dsa keys which could have come in any use even once with a compromised machine should be replaced. Jun 03 02:24:51 cesarb well.. then i-'mk a utterly paranoid ;) even when i'm using standart keysizes. Jun 03 02:25:18 but now i know that i want more different keys which i then also can replace more individually (and often) Jun 03 02:27:01 roh: tsc tsc. if you had a pre-2006 key and "replaced it often", you'd be replacing it with a borked one without knowing... Jun 03 02:27:12 was a real mess finding all the places where my dsa pubkey has been *g* Jun 03 02:27:15 roh: nah, how comes a good key gets compr when used on a bad target? Jun 03 02:27:36 jOERG_rw cryptographic mess. Jun 03 02:27:36 jOERG_rw: highly complex math. Jun 03 02:27:47 jOERG_rw: only applies to DSA, though Jun 03 02:27:49 the bad random let to a basically broken dsa Jun 03 02:27:57 jOERG_rw: RSA is immune due to its much simpler math Jun 03 02:28:16 means one could brute your privkey quite possibly with not much processing power Jun 03 02:28:38 jOERG_rw: RSA needs truly secure random numbers when being generated. DSA also needs them when being used. Jun 03 02:28:41 assumed the connection was sniffed Jun 03 02:29:05 I know the issue but my keys are good. replace anyway???? Jun 03 02:31:57 jOERG_rw: if you were using DSA keys, I'd replace them anyway (and start using RSA...). If they were RSA, and not generated on said systems on said period, there's no need. Jun 03 02:31:57 seems I'm not blacklisted. just did a rsync on varaha Jun 03 02:32:28 pointer? Jun 03 02:34:55 jOERG_rw one cant know which dsa keys could be affected. Jun 03 02:35:21 only keys generated with broken random can be detected (in standard keysizes) Jun 03 02:35:53 jOERG_rw when your key is dsa, just replace it anyways. its a good default. use rsa with 2k or up. Jun 03 02:42:55 roh: thanx. will check Jun 03 02:44:04 * jOERG_rw hears birds starting to sing. Time to go to bed :-) **** ENDING LOGGING AT Tue Jun 03 02:59:57 2008