**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Wed Jun 18 02:59:56 2008
Jun 18 03:29:08 <CIA-47> openmoko: 03zecke 07org.openmoko.asu.dev * rc7fd2d61795b 10/conf/distro/include/sane-srcdates.inc: [srcdates] Bump EFL to 17th of June 2007
Jun 18 03:29:08 <CIA-47> openmoko: 03zecke 07org.openmoko.asu.dev * rd90d96350671 10/packages/tasks/task-openmoko-qtopia-x11.bb: [task] Remove the Qtopia profile application because exposure offers a replacement
Jun 18 03:29:09 <CIA-47> openmoko: 03zecke 07org.openmoko.asu.dev * r0584de08ee36 10/packages/tasks/task-openmoko-qtopia-x11.bb: [asu] Throw out NetworkManager and welcome ConnMan
Jun 18 03:29:09 <CIA-47> openmoko: 03woglinde2 07org.openmoko.asu.dev * rc5d696d329ce 10/packages/gmp/ (10 files in 2 dirs): gmp: update to version 4.2.2
Jun 18 03:29:12 <CIA-47> openmoko: 03graeme 07org.openmoko.asu.dev * r8660c777f060 10/conf/distro/include/preferred-om-2008-versions.inc: [versions] bump gmp-native to version that doesnt fail on gcc 4.3.X
Jun 18 03:29:15 <CIA-47> openmoko: 03zecke 07org.openmoko.asu.dev * r814609940375 10/conf/checksums.ini: [checksums] Add my local sums for gmp-4.2.2
Jun 18 03:29:18 <CIA-47> openmoko: 03zecke 07org.openmoko.asu.dev * r9cc9ef66b2ea 10/conf/distro/include/sane-srcrevs.inc: [srcrev] Build exposure r35 to not call not wrapped etk methods
Jun 18 04:00:46 <mbuf> June 17 build failed - package: libmikmod-3.2.0-beta2: failed; need to try again
Jun 18 04:01:11 * ewon blinks
Jun 18 04:03:46 <BBishop> ewon is disqualified for blinking.
Jun 18 04:04:29 <ewon> ;_;
Jun 18 05:01:32 <hellfire_> i am wondering if it is possible to compile and install wine on openmoko?
Jun 18 05:06:09 <josch> hellfire_, maybe but this would be kind of senseless
Jun 18 05:06:24 <josch> since all windows applications are for i386
Jun 18 05:06:41 <josch> and wine is not an emulator :P
Jun 18 05:08:29 <hellfire_> ??
Jun 18 05:08:43 <hellfire_> so there is no way?
Jun 18 05:08:54 <hellfire_> i completely forgot about the proccessor type
Jun 18 05:09:03 <hellfire_> i am just used to working with i386
Jun 18 05:09:19 <hellfire_> what about x86-64 then?
Jun 18 05:09:59 <hellfire_> how is it possible to install wine on amd64 system and then to install starcraft (which was created before 64 bit processors  bacame popular as home pcs)?
Jun 18 05:10:18 <Qwell> because amd64 is still i386
Jun 18 05:10:20 <Qwell> (compat)
Jun 18 05:10:35 <hellfire_> ok
Jun 18 05:10:41 <hellfire_> i understand that
Jun 18 05:11:10 <hellfire_> what about native games?
Jun 18 05:11:27 <hellfire_> would it be possible to compile and install quake 3 on openmoko?
Jun 18 05:11:40 <hellfire_> i am talking about the freerunner version
Jun 18 05:11:48 <hellfire_> its hardware should be good enough
Jun 18 05:11:49 <josch> haha
Jun 18 05:11:55 <josch> hahahahaha
Jun 18 05:12:02 <hellfire_> why haha?
Jun 18 05:12:08 <josch> quake 3??
Jun 18 05:12:12 <hellfire_> yeah
Jun 18 05:12:16 <josch> the freerunner good enough???
Jun 18 05:12:21 <josch> nooo waaay
Jun 18 05:12:27 <hellfire_> it has 500mhz processor?
Jun 18 05:12:27 <josch> but:
Jun 18 05:12:31 <josch> hellfire_, argh
Jun 18 05:12:38 <josch> understand embedded hardware
Jun 18 05:12:48 <josch> 500MHz armv != 500MHz pentium 3
Jun 18 05:12:50 <hellfire_> and its maximum resolution should be around 320 on something 
Jun 18 05:12:59 <hellfire_> it is not equal?
Jun 18 05:13:02 <hellfire_> correct?
Jun 18 05:13:02 <josch> NO
Jun 18 05:13:07 <hellfire_> it is not that good?
Jun 18 05:13:16 <hellfire_> ok i understand that
Jun 18 05:13:25 <hellfire_> sory if i am asking stupid questions
Jun 18 05:13:33 <josch> but:
Jun 18 05:13:56 <josch> if you have the source you can port something for armv4t
Jun 18 05:14:03 <josch> i'm off to work now
Jun 18 05:14:39 <hellfire_> quake 3 is opensource right?
Jun 18 05:14:42 <hellfire_> anyway
Jun 18 05:14:53 <hellfire_> sory for the stupid questions
Jun 18 05:14:54 <hellfire_> bye
Jun 18 05:22:19 <Qwell> topic that IMO :p
Jun 18 05:22:36 <CIA-47> openmoko: 03zecke 07org.openmoko.asu.stable * rf7740905be54 10/conf/distro/include/sane-srcdates.inc: [srcdates] Bump EFL to 17th of June 2007
Jun 18 05:22:36 <CIA-47> openmoko: 03zecke 07org.openmoko.asu.stable * rbe28975a033d 10/packages/tasks/task-openmoko-qtopia-x11.bb: [task] Remove the Qtopia profile application because exposure offers a replacement
Jun 18 05:22:36 <CIA-47> openmoko: 03zecke 07org.openmoko.asu.stable * r5a0e19d70bd8 10/packages/tasks/task-openmoko-qtopia-x11.bb: [asu] Throw out NetworkManager and welcome ConnMan
Jun 18 05:22:40 <CIA-47> openmoko: 03woglinde2 07org.openmoko.asu.stable * r596cc3a259fc 10/packages/gmp/ (10 files in 2 dirs): gmp: update to version 4.2.2
Jun 18 05:22:41 <CIA-47> openmoko: 03graeme 07org.openmoko.asu.stable * r420c44f23edd 10/conf/distro/include/preferred-om-2008-versions.inc: [versions] bump gmp-native to version that doesnt fail on gcc 4.3.X
Jun 18 05:22:44 <CIA-47> openmoko: 03zecke 07org.openmoko.asu.stable * r5e4fe722a8a1 10/conf/checksums.ini: [checksums] Add my local sums for gmp-4.2.2
Jun 18 05:22:47 <CIA-47> openmoko: 03zecke 07org.openmoko.asu.stable * rddd279be00be 10/conf/distro/include/sane-srcrevs.inc: [srcrev] Build exposure r35 to not call not wrapped etk methods
Jun 18 06:30:50 <mbuf> anyone had a recent successful build on June 17? mine fails at libmikmod-3.2.0-beta2: failed
Jun 18 06:31:15 <methril|away> mine to
Jun 18 06:33:28 <mbuf> methril|away, is it generally acceptable to add beta code to the repo?
Jun 18 06:34:17 <methril> for me, almost all the ASU is a WIP, then it could be beta :)
Jun 18 06:34:23 <mbuf> methril, :)
Jun 18 06:34:35 <methril> i'm going to change the prefered version
Jun 18 06:34:38 <methril> hehe
Jun 18 06:36:40 <methril> it doesn't have the m4.patch
Jun 18 06:36:45 <mbuf> methril, yeah
Jun 18 06:37:01 <methril> who pulled up has some mising files :)
Jun 18 06:41:45 <methril> i found the author :D
Jun 18 06:42:53 <mbuf> methril, i shall let you do the honors
Jun 18 06:43:11 <methril> mickeyl at openembedded 
Jun 18 06:43:20 <methril> i found the m4.patch
Jun 18 06:44:01 <josch|nsn> mickey|zzZZzz: ping :)
Jun 18 06:44:43 <methril> it's necesarry?
Jun 18 06:47:26 <methril> it is
Jun 18 06:47:30 <methril> :)
Jun 18 06:48:17 <mbuf> ok
Jun 18 06:56:08 <Hopscotch> good morning
Jun 18 06:56:18 <mbuf> Hopscotch, good morning
Jun 18 06:57:18 <methril> morning
Jun 18 07:01:30 <ohin> good
Jun 18 07:25:29 <andrenarchy> g'day
Jun 18 07:28:02 <BBishop> moo
Jun 18 07:30:16 <CIA-47> openmoko: 03raster 07org.openmoko.asu.dev * r47fbe0a025bb 10/packages/resolvconf/resolvconf_1.28.bb: fix resolvconf to actually work and fix up resolv.conf file properly by
Jun 18 07:32:19 <Psi> heh, i pulled a 3y old BL-5C battery out of my draw and it actually booting the neo
Jun 18 07:32:35 <Psi> *it's
Jun 18 07:33:28 <Psi> heh, neo just meowed, that always freaks me out
Jun 18 07:34:46 <methril> CoreDump UMTs with a Neo? 
Jun 18 07:35:14 <CoreDump> methril: heh I wish
Jun 18 07:35:28 <CoreDump> with an SE W880i
Jun 18 07:35:45 <methril> ah! ok
Jun 18 07:35:47 <methril> :)
Jun 18 07:36:24 <CoreDump> =)
Jun 18 07:38:42 <CoreDump> now that I think of it, even freerunner doesn't do UTMS / G3, right?
Jun 18 07:39:03 <ahven> nope
Jun 18 07:39:09 <ahven> 3G*
Jun 18 07:39:56 <methril> not the GTA02 but, maybe the GTA03 (then not FreeRunner)
Jun 18 07:42:34 <CoreDump> too bad, because GPRS is a joke =)
Jun 18 08:12:16 <CIA-47> freesmartphone.org: 03heikki.paajanen * rc7e13f894260 10/ (14 files in 3 dirs): 
Jun 18 08:12:16 <CIA-47> freesmartphone.org: Implemented GetPhonebookInfo
Jun 18 08:12:16 <CIA-47> freesmartphone.org: Changed modem cache to be per interface
Jun 18 08:39:14 <CVirus> What's the status of the wifi driver ?
Jun 18 08:40:05 <XorA> working ish
Jun 18 08:41:43 <CVirus> Sameo did a good job then I guess
Jun 18 08:42:30 <XorA> it works, but I think there are probably some minor niggles or cleanups
Jun 18 08:42:36 <XorA> we caught a couple a few weeks ago
Jun 18 08:43:22 <CVirus> I see
Jun 18 08:51:19 <LionKMP> Hi, anybody knows if there will be an EU distro hub? in Prague? contact person?
Jun 18 08:52:08 <raster> i think the .eu hub is in the netherlands
Jun 18 08:52:19 <Kamping_Kaiser> http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/GroupSales might have some help?
Jun 18 08:53:44 <LionKMP> Kamping_Kaiser: that does not mention this info.
Jun 18 08:54:08 <LionKMP> raster: should I subscribe to one of the ML and ask there? or nobody knows yet?
Jun 18 08:54:43 <LionKMP> earlier Prague was metioned, we could drive there from Hungary to pick up our 30. NL is too far :)
Jun 18 08:54:50 <raster> in the end the hub should be transparent to you
Jun 18 08:54:53 <raster> you order online
Jun 18 08:55:01 <raster> it gets shipped to you (somehow)
Jun 18 08:55:13 <raster> it arrives at your location
Jun 18 08:55:31 <LionKMP> yes, that's what we could avoid, the "somehow" part. if it was near. Better drive a little than trust the post :)
Jun 18 08:55:38 <raster> group sales are another matter
Jun 18 08:55:39 <raster> :)
Jun 18 08:57:54 <LionKMP> hm, why? how will that work?
Jun 18 08:58:01 <raster> dunno
Jun 18 08:58:04 <LionKMP> :-)
Jun 18 08:58:06 <raster> i dot do sales
Jun 18 08:58:07 <raster> dont
Jun 18 08:58:12 <LionKMP> ok, sorry.
Jun 18 08:58:14 <raster> i dont pay any attention to it
Jun 18 08:58:40 <LionKMP> I see. I'll try asking another time. or just wait for announcement. :-)
Jun 18 08:58:55 <raster> check the wiki
Jun 18 08:59:04 <raster> or wait until the actual order pages are up
Jun 18 08:59:32 <raster> or join the mailing lists
Jun 18 08:59:39 <raster> or read the mailing lists archives
Jun 18 08:59:43 <LionKMP> ok hehe, ok, I read the ML on the web.
Jun 18 08:59:43 <LionKMP> yep
Jun 18 08:59:48 <LionKMP> thank you! :-)
Jun 18 08:59:48 <raster> search them for info
Jun 18 08:59:54 <raster> :)
Jun 18 09:08:55 <CIA-47> openmoko: 03zecke * r8ba47263e1c1 10/src/server/infrastructure/softmenubar/qsoftmenubarprovider.cpp: [cleanup] Remove empty spinloop...
Jun 18 09:08:55 <CIA-47> openmoko: 03zecke * r7b4714784278 10/src/applications/qtmail/accountlist.cpp: [mail] Remove debug output, left over from debugging
Jun 18 09:08:56 <CIA-47> openmoko: 03zecke * ref2044f394b3 10/src/server/phone/callscreen/themed/callscreen.cpp: [callscreen] Do not assume that on emit listEmpty the callscreen is hidden
Jun 18 09:08:57 <CIA-47> openmoko: 03zecke * rf33ddbd6119d 10/src/server/phone/serverinterface/phonelauncher/ (phonelauncher_illume.cpp phonelauncher_illume.h): [phone] The CallScreen hid itself before dialing completed
Jun 18 09:29:19 <CIA-47> openmoko: 03zecke 07org.openmoko.asu.dev * r6fb6d979582a 10/conf/distro/include/sane-srcrevs.inc: [srcrev] Upgrade Qtopia with some minor callscreen bugfix
Jun 18 09:31:09 <CIA-47> openmoko: 03zecke 07org.openmoko.asu.stable * rdf32f6e4a9a5 10/conf/distro/include/sane-srcrevs.inc: [srcrev] Upgrade Qtopia with some minor callscreen bugfix
Jun 18 10:00:45 <mbuf> methril, where can i find the m4.patch for libmikmod-3.2-beta2 ?
Jun 18 10:10:18 <kvk> Hi
Jun 18 10:10:41 <kvk> atul, hii
Jun 18 10:11:03 <atul> kvk, bol re
Jun 18 10:11:10 <atul> whats going on at command
Jun 18 10:11:10 * kvk kvk kicks atul 
Jun 18 10:11:25 <atul> kvk, kamine
Jun 18 10:20:24 <ScaredyCat> klatu barada nikto!
Jun 18 10:20:36 <mjr> ni*coughcoughwheeze*
Jun 18 10:21:02 <zash> morning!
Jun 18 10:34:57 <dcordes> mooinmoin
Jun 18 10:38:25 <methril> wait
Jun 18 10:51:05 <CIA-47> openmoko: 03zecke * rd7702623f799 10/src/applications/qtmail/accountlist.cpp: [mms] The account was never added to the account list (fixing further issues with my MMS removal)
Jun 18 10:52:49 <CIA-47> openmoko: 03tony_tu * r4489 10/developers/tony_tu/certification/ (41 files in 3 dirs): hxd8/gta certification test command
Jun 18 10:54:10 <atul> Does CPP have  XPCOM binding  ?
Jun 18 10:54:12 <methril> certification test command? what does that means?
Jun 18 11:12:07 <CIA-47> openmoko: 03zecke 07org.openmoko.asu.dev * r4ba0bec81c29 10/conf/distro/include/sane-srcrevs.inc: [srcrev] Upgrade Qtopia to get SMS account fixes
Jun 18 11:12:32 <CIA-47> openmoko: 03raster 07org.openmoko.asu.stable * r427fb3b0e578 10/packages/resolvconf/resolvconf_1.28.bb: fix resolvconf to actually work and fix up resolv.conf file properly by
Jun 18 11:12:33 <CIA-47> openmoko: 03zecke 07org.openmoko.asu.stable * re2b9c1a43398 10/conf/distro/include/sane-srcrevs.inc: [srcrev] Upgrade Qtopia to get SMS account fixes
Jun 18 13:14:00 <CIA-47> openmoko: 03zecke 07org.openmoko.dev * refacc1242b68 10/conf/distro/include/sane-srcrevs.inc: [srcrev] Upgrade the ninja theme to rev 5 as of ticks request
Jun 18 13:14:00 <CIA-47> openmoko: 03zecke 07org.openmoko.dev * r03e33dacd7e6 10/conf/distro/include/sane-srcrevs.inc: [srcrev] As on ticks request upgrade opkg to 4488 to fix some segfaults
Jun 18 13:14:00 <CIA-47> openmoko: 03zecke 07org.openmoko.dev * rda4d2621b816 10/conf/distro/include/sane-srcrevs.inc: [srcrev] Qtopia upgrade to have various bugfixes for regina
Jun 18 13:14:01 <CIA-47> openmoko: 03zecke 07org.openmoko.dev * r9b5c46c872eb 10/packages/qtopia-phone/qtopia-phone-x11_git.bb: [qtopia] helpbrowser couldn't find index.html (#1465)
Jun 18 13:14:04 <CIA-47> openmoko: 03zecke 07org.openmoko.dev * r279e0f09a3a8 10/ (2 files in 2 dirs): [gdbus] Add libgdbus of moblin for connman
Jun 18 13:14:07 <CIA-47> openmoko: 03zecke 07org.openmoko.dev * r523e56d3ffec 10/ (3 files in 3 dirs): [connman] Add connman as we want to use it for ASU/exposure
Jun 18 13:14:10 <CIA-47> openmoko: 03zecke 07org.openmoko.dev * r55d89f1e758a 10/packages/connman/connman_git.bb: [connman] Split the scripts and plugins into separate packages
Jun 18 13:14:13 <CIA-47> openmoko: 03zecke 07org.openmoko.dev * r782570425316 10/packages/connman/connman_git.bb: [connman] Package all d-bus services even if they have weird names
Jun 18 13:14:16 <CIA-47> openmoko: 03zecke 07org.openmoko.dev * r94b25c48ac90 10/packages/connman/ (connman_git.bb files/connman): [connman] Connman is using a lsb helper for init scripts that OE does not offer
Jun 18 13:14:25 <CIA-47> openmoko: 03zecke 07org.openmoko.dev * r4b82e49770d4 10/conf/distro/include/sane-srcrevs.inc: [srcrev] Upgrade Qtopia to get various bugfxies
Jun 18 13:14:28 <CIA-47> openmoko: 03raster 07org.openmoko.dev * r33ad51c9703b 10/ (6 files in 3 dirs): update to wpa_supplicant 0.6.3 (also add 0.6.0 in) and build packages for
Jun 18 13:14:31 <CIA-47> openmoko: 03raster 07org.openmoko.dev * r4f0282a92202 10/packages/e17/ (e-wm_cvs.bb exquisite_cvs.bb): reduce package sizes by removing redundant data. save a few mb.
Jun 18 13:14:34 <CIA-47> openmoko: 03zecke 07org.openmoko.dev * r72949f5dea70 10/conf/distro/include/sane-srcrevs.inc: [srcrev] Upgrade exposure to r34 to get profile, suspend, brightness changes
Jun 18 13:14:37 <CIA-47> openmoko: 03zecke 07org.openmoko.dev * rc71787c33a4c 10/conf/checksums.ini: [checksums] Add my sums for dbus-python
Jun 18 13:14:40 <CIA-47> openmoko: 03zecke 07org.openmoko.dev * rdd8d8a021889 10/conf/checksums.ini: [checksums] Add my sums for for wpa_supplicant
Jun 18 13:14:47 <CIA-47> openmoko: 03zecke 07org.openmoko.dev * r5d00fa11e19c 10/packages/e17/ (e-wm_cvs.bb exquisite_cvs.bb): [e17] bump version after rasters packaging changes
Jun 18 13:14:50 <CIA-47> openmoko: 03zecke 07org.openmoko.dev * rfa913cd30fb7 10/conf/distro/include/sane-srcdates.inc: [srcdates] Bump EFL to 17th of June 2007
Jun 18 13:14:53 <CIA-47> openmoko: 03zecke 07org.openmoko.dev * r2d317f9774e8 10/packages/tasks/task-openmoko-qtopia-x11.bb: [task] Remove the Qtopia profile application because exposure offers a replacement
Jun 18 13:14:58 <CIA-47> openmoko: 03zecke 07org.openmoko.dev * r97f34bcc7710 10/packages/tasks/task-openmoko-qtopia-x11.bb: [asu] Throw out NetworkManager and welcome ConnMan
Jun 18 13:15:01 <CIA-47> openmoko: 03zecke 07org.openmoko.dev * re08e09ae1950 10/conf/distro/include/sane-srcrevs.inc: [srcrev] Build exposure r35 to not call not wrapped etk methods
Jun 18 13:15:04 <CIA-47> openmoko: 03raster 07org.openmoko.dev * r793f13f975a1 10/packages/resolvconf/resolvconf_1.28.bb: fix resolvconf to actually work and fix up resolv.conf file properly by
Jun 18 13:15:09 <CIA-47> openmoko: 03graeme 07org.openmoko.dev * rd67f5e62679a 10/ (208 files in 73 dirs): Introduce a SRCPV and use it inside the PV as replacement for SRCREV
Jun 18 13:15:12 <CIA-47> openmoko: 03zecke 07org.openmoko.dev * r18066bbc0f91 10/conf/distro/include/sane-srcrevs.inc: [srcrev] Upgrade Qtopia with some minor callscreen bugfix
Jun 18 13:15:15 <CIA-47> openmoko: 03graeme 07org.openmoko.dev * r1d0f0ba5d6d2 10/packages/mono/mono_svn.inc: [mono] set a SRCREV_FORMAT
Jun 18 13:15:20 <CIA-47> openmoko: 03graeme 07org.openmoko.dev * r04411307725a 10/packages/libmikmod/libmikmod/m4.patch: [mikmod] re-add removed m4 that is needed
Jun 18 13:15:23 <CIA-47> openmoko: 03graeme 07org.openmoko.dev * raf26c57a40bf 10/packages/connman/connman_git.bb: [connman] correct DEPENDS and RDEPENDS
Jun 18 13:15:50 <methril> thanks graeme :)
Jun 18 13:16:47 <XorA> what did I do?
Jun 18 13:19:09 <methril> re-add m4 from libmimod :)
Jun 18 13:19:28 <mbuf> methril, build still running
Jun 18 13:19:28 <XorA> that was a partial until I have time to remerge with OE
Jun 18 13:20:17 <methril> mbuf mine breaks in linux-openmoko, for some missing target dir (install)
Jun 18 13:20:43 <mbuf> methril, is there anyway to tell how many packages are left to be built?
Jun 18 13:20:45 <XorA> methril: did you build overnight?
Jun 18 13:21:12 <methril> for mes it's telling me the tasks
Jun 18 13:21:39 <methril> not allways (laptop at home)
Jun 18 13:21:51 <methril> i'm using company resources ;)
Jun 18 13:22:07 <mbuf> methril, that is fine; but, just wondering; will be good to have ETA
Jun 18 13:22:44 <methril> yes, but it's so hard to calculate
Jun 18 13:22:55 <XorA> NOTE: Running task 4725 of 4741
Jun 18 13:23:05 <XorA> look out for those
Jun 18 13:23:06 <methril> it depends on the machine, the HDD rpms, the amount of RAM
Jun 18 13:23:13 <methril> it's what i look for
Jun 18 13:23:24 <methril> look out
Jun 18 13:23:27 <methril> sorry
Jun 18 13:34:51 * Bish wants freerunner :/ moooh
Jun 18 13:36:11 * zash wants freerunner
Jun 18 13:36:25 * tomboy64 wants freerunner :O blaaaaaah
Jun 18 13:36:37 <tomboy64> mhm
Jun 18 13:36:41 <tomboy64> let's hold a vote
Jun 18 13:36:46 <tomboy64> who else wants a freerunner?
Jun 18 13:37:14 * XorA doesnt
Jun 18 13:37:23 * XorA wants an ExtortionateRunner
Jun 18 13:37:37 <scout> tomboy64: here!
Jun 18 13:38:01 <tomboy64> 4. anybody else?
Jun 18 13:41:06 * balrog-kun suspect the votes will be counted wrongly
Jun 18 13:41:11 * balrog-kun suspect fraud
Jun 18 13:46:29 * balrog-kun calls for a new voting system
Jun 18 13:46:38 * balrog-kun checks his watch in the way great conspiracy-planning people do
Jun 18 14:26:09 * Bish still wants freerunner
Jun 18 14:26:26 * zash too
Jun 18 14:26:49 <zash> where did the "MP is started" in the topic go
Jun 18 14:27:02 <Bish> zash: its gone, because FIC is slow as fuck
Jun 18 14:27:36 <zash> is fuck slow?
Jun 18 14:27:46 <wurp2> MP is started
Jun 18 14:28:08 <wurp2> Device is expected to be available for general purchase at the beginning of July
Jun 18 14:28:48 <Bish> uh yeah, same as .. last month and the month before that
Jun 18 14:29:10 <ohin> and year before...
Jun 18 14:29:17 <Bish> yes xD
Jun 18 14:30:29 <balrog-kun> it's a tradition now
Jun 18 14:31:34 <Bish> cult
Jun 18 14:33:33 <SpeedEvil> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cargo_Cult#OpenMoko
Jun 18 14:44:56 <mickeyl> morning
Jun 18 14:45:49 <mickeyl> `pwgen`: thanks for your diagram. I think this largely overlaps with the Openmoko framework diagram, right? What can we do to add your requirements to it?
Jun 18 14:48:14 <Sup3rkiddo> hi all, OM images don't have udev..do they?....know its a tad dumb question, but suddenly hit me
Jun 18 14:49:20 <woglinde> ???
Jun 18 14:50:03 <Sup3rkiddo> woglinde, hey, i told you its a "tad dumb"..didn't i?
Jun 18 14:51:24 <`pwgen`> mickely: i try to figure out what dbus daemopns are usable  ( dbus-dconf ? did anyone managed to acces it via dbus ? )
Jun 18 14:53:11 <josch> Sup3rkiddo, the last image i saw had udev
Jun 18 14:53:13 <balrog-kun> Sup3rkiddo: they should have udev
Jun 18 14:53:31 <`pwgen`> mickeyl: my plan is drawing a big picture that covers the freesmartphone api, more in detail 
Jun 18 14:53:38 <mickeyl> i see, cool
Jun 18 14:53:44 <mickeyl> no, i didn't try dbus-gconf directly
Jun 18 14:53:58 <mickeyl> would need to look into libgconf how it does that
Jun 18 14:54:10 <mickeyl> guillaume comitted a small preferences daemon 
Jun 18 14:54:18 <mickeyl> we should take a look whether this is usable for an API
Jun 18 14:54:28 <`pwgen`> dbus-inspector can find the org.gnome.GConf entry, but didnt find any method . 
Jun 18 14:55:37 <`pwgen`> googleing org.gnome.Gconf  doesnt help me, but the source code for dbus-glib gives me some hints.
Jun 18 14:56:33 <`pwgen`> but i did not manage to get or write    some entry to gconf 
Jun 18 14:56:53 <Sup3rkiddo> josch, balrog-kun, thanks...:D, i was wondering if udev needs some special changes to run on ARM and assumed OM images doesn't have udev as automatic device node creations are few
Jun 18 14:58:01 <josch> Sup3rkiddo, i also use udev in debian
Jun 18 14:59:08 <balrog-kun> Sup3rkiddo: half of the time you wait for OM to boot you wait for udev :)
Jun 18 15:01:00 <woglinde> *g* udev depends to much on shell
Jun 18 15:02:08 <Sup3rkiddo> johncylee, true, for a desktop, i gather its totally different....i mean you need to take care of different drives, printers, network cards...etc
Jun 18 15:02:20 <Sup3rkiddo> balrog-kun, oh...
Jun 18 15:03:03 <Sup3rkiddo> but, surely mobile phones have almost the same set of devices....dont they?
Jun 18 15:04:16 <ebbe> How can I download the source from the new framework? Not just browse it
Jun 18 15:05:18 <Sup3rkiddo> ebbe, git.freesmartphone.org?
Jun 18 15:05:31 <ebbe> Sup3rkiddo: Then what?
Jun 18 15:06:07 <Sup3rkiddo> ebbe, git clone <bleh> :)
Jun 18 15:06:30 <Sup3rkiddo> ebbe, oh wait, there are images
Jun 18 15:07:21 <ebbe> Sup3rkiddo: I don't want the images, and git clone  http://git.freesmartphone.org doesn't work
Jun 18 15:07:38 <ebbe> Or, I've already downloaded the images :)
Jun 18 15:07:50 <ebbe> And flashed it
Jun 18 15:08:00 <ebbe> Now I want the source
Jun 18 15:08:04 <Sup3rkiddo> oh :/
Jun 18 15:09:05 <mickeyl> like Sup3rkiddo said, all the framework code is in git.freesmartphone.org
Jun 18 15:09:10 <mickeyl> and actually... also on the device .D
Jun 18 15:09:13 <mickeyl> since it's python
Jun 18 15:09:24 <mickeyl> so just open it in an editor and hack away
Jun 18 15:09:55 <ebbe> Hmm, I'd prefer it to be on my computer, but a scp can do wonders then :)
Jun 18 15:10:00 <mickeyl> righto
Jun 18 15:10:06 <mickeyl> actually, the way i develop is via nfs
Jun 18 15:10:24 <mickeyl> mounting my framework directory from PC on the neo
Jun 18 15:10:32 <mickeyl> then i do not have to scp
Jun 18 15:10:39 <ebbe> Smart
Jun 18 15:22:15 <ebbe> OT: Have you helped Firefox set a Guinness World Record?
Jun 18 15:23:26 <dcordes> ebbe: ?
Jun 18 15:23:34 <ebbe> http://www.spreadfirefox.com/en-US/worldrecord
Jun 18 15:24:19 <dcordes> I bet firefox is still broken in OE..
Jun 18 15:28:08 <faern> HAHA! vi har mest nerladdningar i norden
Jun 18 15:28:31 <faern> oops. wrong window :D
Jun 18 15:28:37 <ebbe> Hehe
Jun 18 15:30:17 <dcordes> firefox_1.0.7.bb do_compile failed
Jun 18 15:31:20 <ebbe> dcordes: But why would anyone want that anyway? Isn't it too huge for a PDA?
Jun 18 15:31:48 <Qwell> it's only 3 years old too..
Jun 18 15:32:12 <dcordes> ebbe: some people like using their desktop stuff on their pda
Jun 18 15:32:13 <faern> does ff3 exist for om? :D
Jun 18 15:32:18 <dcordes> faern: no
Jun 18 15:32:52 <dcordes> NOTE: package firefox-2.0.0.3-r3: task do_compile: Failed
Jun 18 15:32:54 <faern> though so :P but it would be cool
Jun 18 15:33:17 <dcordes> faern: make a .bb then but it will be a fsckn hassle with all those patches required
Jun 18 15:33:36 <dcordes> maybe they got a bit cross compile friendlier in 
Jun 18 15:33:38 <dcordes> in 3
Jun 18 15:46:03 <`pwgen`> hello
Jun 18 15:48:22 <mickeyl> welcome back
Jun 18 15:48:29 <mickeyl> my last response was:
Jun 18 15:48:43 <mickeyl> err no
Jun 18 15:48:49 <mickeyl> think you got my last sentence
Jun 18 15:48:58 <mickeyl> (was about preferencesd)
Jun 18 15:49:04 <`pwgen`> mickeyl: is it clear how the gui interact with the "kommApp" or ophoned
Jun 18 15:50:22 <`pwgen`> the last time i checkt out from freesmartphone in /preferencesd was only a readme, so i didnt check preferencesd )
Jun 18 15:50:28 <mickeyl> yep. dbus APIs are specified and while they are subject to more changes, a good bunch of it is already stable
Jun 18 15:50:56 <mickeyl> ya, preferences is not in use in milestone1, but will be used in milestone2 or 3
Jun 18 15:51:07 <mickeyl> guillaume just checked in the basic implementation last week
Jun 18 15:51:17 <`pwgen`> yuhu .. let ne check it out .....
Jun 18 15:51:56 <mickeyl> some crazy yaml stuff, i did not have time to review that yet
Jun 18 15:53:43 <`pwgen`> yaml -> ?YAML Ain't Markup Language? ? 
Jun 18 15:54:02 <mickeyl> possibly
Jun 18 15:54:53 <`pwgen`> hmm another more dependency, so the image will grow and grow ...  
Jun 18 15:57:26 <mickeyl> oh we have plenty of space
Jun 18 15:57:56 <mickeyl> milestone1 is taking up 38
Jun 18 15:58:13 <mickeyl> and we have a lot of tools on the rootfs we don't need in production
Jun 18 15:58:24 <mickeyl> so we won't hit the magic 58 soon
Jun 18 16:01:10 <`pwgen`> when i count the dbus-daemons and look over there deps ( pulse/gst with ogg/mp3 and so on ) i fear that this will grow more and more 
Jun 18 16:05:11 <mickeyl> heh, sure it will grow
Jun 18 16:05:18 <mickeyl> more features always mean more space
Jun 18 16:05:30 <mickeyl> but anyways, in the 38 there is already gstreamer in
Jun 18 16:08:57 <`pwgen`> *G* ok, i think a bit about my wishes/dreams for openmobilekommunikation, to blow this up  (;-))
Jun 18 16:09:33 <mickeyl> cool
Jun 18 16:09:43 <mickeyl> i think now is a good time
Jun 18 16:09:51 <mickeyl> zhone is not having any features but simple call handling
Jun 18 16:09:56 <mickeyl> first daemons are implemented
Jun 18 16:09:58 <mickeyl> API under discussion
Jun 18 16:09:59 <mickeyl> etc.
Jun 18 16:10:04 <mickeyl> so now is the _best_ time to get involved
Jun 18 16:22:25 <`pwgen`> is there a colourscheme that should be used for openmoko presentation/dokumentation?  the default dia scheme will do eye cancer .
Jun 18 16:23:03 <mickeyl> well, mokorange is deprecated
Jun 18 16:23:14 <mickeyl> so, it's graytones with a bit of green
Jun 18 16:23:15 <Qwell> that's a shame
Jun 18 16:23:46 <mickeyl> robtaylor: ping?
Jun 18 16:37:16 <robtaylor> mickeyl: pong?
Jun 18 16:39:43 <mickeyl> robtaylor: hey. do you have any contact to your GSoC student? he is not posting any reports to openmoko-devel but he should
Jun 18 16:40:17 <robtaylor> mickeyl: my gsoc student?
Jun 18 16:40:59 <mickeyl> err
Jun 18 16:41:01 <mickeyl> sorry
Jun 18 16:41:08 <robtaylor> heh
Jun 18 16:41:09 <mickeyl> i think it was the other Rob
Jun 18 16:41:15 <mickeyl> Robot101: ping
Jun 18 16:43:51 <`pwgen`> mickeyl: are there .bb files for building preferencesd zhone ... ?
Jun 18 16:44:30 <mickeyl> preferencesd not
Jun 18 16:44:34 <mickeyl> since that's not included yet
Jun 18 16:44:40 <mickeyl> but the whole fso-image was built with OE
Jun 18 16:45:48 <`pwgen`> let me guess, fso-image.bb  ?
Jun 18 16:46:03 <cb22[eee]> mickeyl, how's gsoc been going in general so far?
Jun 18 16:46:08 <mickeyl> `pwgen`: good gues
Jun 18 16:46:09 <mickeyl> s
Jun 18 16:46:25 <mickeyl> cb22[eee]: mixed, as ever
Jun 18 16:46:29 <mickeyl> some communicative, some not
Jun 18 16:46:32 <mickeyl> some with results, some not
Jun 18 16:46:35 <mickeyl> :)
Jun 18 16:46:53 <mickeyl> i hope we see a good midterm evaluation
Jun 18 16:47:04 <cb22[eee]> yeah, openmoko needs cool stuff :)
Jun 18 16:47:12 <mickeyl> *nod*
Jun 18 16:47:18 <mickeyl> lots of cool stuff coming now that we tackle the basics
Jun 18 16:47:20 <mickeyl> (finally)
Jun 18 16:47:44 <cb22[eee]> basics + python bindings :)
Jun 18 16:49:31 <cb22[eee]> I wonder what the memory usage of the c++ programs that ShedSkin produces is like... it would be interesting to write 'simplish' python programs, and then use ShedSkin to translate them to c++
Jun 18 16:49:44 * cb22[eee] figures he'll do some tests
Jun 18 16:50:08 <mickeyl> very interesting
Jun 18 16:50:13 <mickeyl> keep me posted
Jun 18 16:53:09 <unknown_lamer> ugh I had to try and fix some bugs in a C program the other day and ... damn how do people use C anymore
Jun 18 16:53:31 <unknown_lamer> I just wanted to set one breakpoint to examine the stack in one place ... and had to recompile the entire thing with -g, run it under gdb, blah blah
Jun 18 16:54:52 <`pwgen`> where can i find dokumentation for evas/embryo/e17/ programming ? ( a bit more than looking at written code ) 
Jun 18 16:55:44 <Robot101> mickeyl: pong
Jun 18 16:56:04 <Robot101> mickeyl: sure, we speak often on XMPP and he comes to #telepathy
Jun 18 16:56:04 <mickeyl> well, that's a question for #edevelop rather than #openmoko, but i'd suggest starting with http://web.enlightenment.org/p.php?p=docs&l=en
Jun 18 16:56:17 <mickeyl> Robot101: i see. please remind him to also send status updates to openmoko-devel
Jun 18 16:56:25 <mickeyl> Robot101: and maybe coming over to #openmoko-gsoc
Jun 18 16:56:35 <mickeyl> we have no clue what he's doing :)
Jun 18 16:56:45 <`pwgen`> THX 
Jun 18 16:57:54 <mickeyl> http://homepages.pathfinder.gr/kazanaki/contrib/concepts.pdf is an invaluable introduction
Jun 18 16:58:06 <mickeyl> unfortunately written by a volunteer, not by the core team, so it's already a bit outdated
Jun 18 17:00:23 <Robot101> mickeyl: ok, message passed on :)
Jun 18 17:00:39 <mickeyl> thanks
Jun 18 17:00:43 <mickeyl> hope all is fine with collabora
Jun 18 17:01:56 <`pwgen`> ahh, thats much  better than looking at the sources .. 
Jun 18 17:02:36 <mickeyl> :D
Jun 18 17:02:43 <mickeyl> docs are always a pleasure
Jun 18 17:02:44 <wurp2> mickeyl: Am I correct that milestone 1 of zhone doesn't support gprs?
Jun 18 17:03:00 <mickeyl> wurp2: correct. ms1 only features gsm telephony and nothing else :)
Jun 18 17:03:04 <mickeyl> step-by-step
Jun 18 17:03:14 <mickeyl> whereas it easily could support gprs
Jun 18 17:03:16 <mickeyl> since it's using a MUXer
Jun 18 17:03:24 <mickeyl> and we keep the 4th channel free on calypso
Jun 18 17:03:49 <mickeyl> so just needs finishing PDP API in ophoned
Jun 18 17:03:49 <Robot101> mickeyl: yeah, being kept busy as ever :)
Jun 18 17:03:54 <mickeyl> Robot101: that's good
Jun 18 17:04:10 <wurp2> mickeyl: I knew it was easy; I also knew it was early - hence the checking :-)
Jun 18 17:04:15 <`pwgen`> has anyone managed to connect the gprs to german BASE and got internet working ?
Jun 18 17:04:45 <mickeyl> wurp2: although ms2 has other features, I'll be tempted to check whether to do gprs earlier, because a) we can do something qtopia can not and b) it's cool :)
Jun 18 17:05:00 <wurp2> gprs is frustrating in the gtk stack since you have to REBOOT THE PHONE to get regular phone working again afterwards
Jun 18 17:05:06 <mickeyl> indeed
Jun 18 17:05:50 <wurp2> mickeyl: What is the gui toolkit for milestone 1?  Or, better, is there somewhere I can read an overview of it?
Jun 18 17:06:05 <`pwgen`> i think useing the pyneod, not the openmoko gui
Jun 18 17:06:09 <wurp2> I've looked at the freesmartphone docs, but that was a few weeks ago
Jun 18 17:06:29 <mickeyl> `pwgen`: pyneod or ophoned?
Jun 18 17:06:42 <mickeyl> wurp2: UI toolkit is EFL
Jun 18 17:06:46 <mickeyl> and will stay that way for the core apps
Jun 18 17:06:58 <mickeyl> but it's only quickly thrown together
Jun 18 17:07:09 <mickeyl> there's no concrete plan for the UI other than demo the features the framework can do
Jun 18 17:07:18 <mickeyl> first framework, then ui
Jun 18 17:07:21 <wurp2> sure
Jun 18 17:07:32 <mickeyl> but we needed to have something to show it works ;)
Jun 18 17:07:54 <wurp2> What happens if you e.g. install terminal on it from the standard OM repositories?
Jun 18 17:08:14 <mickeyl> well, matchbox is running in background
Jun 18 17:08:20 <mickeyl> you can launch the terminal manually
Jun 18 17:08:22 <mickeyl> and it should appear
Jun 18 17:08:24 <wurp2> NM, I'll just download milestone 1 & burn it & play
Jun 18 17:08:26 <mickeyl> (it sucks in the gtk libs though)
Jun 18 17:08:27 <wurp2> excellent
Jun 18 17:08:33 <`pwgen`> "Running task 1974 of 3324"  then i will check  the ophoned/zhone stuff  and update the graphvitz diagramm .. 
Jun 18 17:08:45 <wurp2> Yeah; I'm not terribly worried about that
Jun 18 17:08:56 <mickeyl> actually, i hope zhone/framework will be what zad started to be
Jun 18 17:09:04 <mickeyl> a community image that concentrates on the basic features
Jun 18 17:09:16 <mickeyl> but with documentation and extensibility
Jun 18 17:09:24 <mickeyl> *shrug* lets see
Jun 18 17:09:41 <wurp2> It seems the OM image should be that :-)
Jun 18 17:09:45 <`pwgen`> before i can draw such an image i had to understand how all works ..
Jun 18 17:10:03 <wurp2> But I like the python & dbus direction
Jun 18 17:10:06 <mickeyl> wurp2: hehe, yes, the official OM image should be that, but this one is driven by marketing and products
Jun 18 17:10:18 <mickeyl> so i try to maintain something that's driven by community 
Jun 18 17:10:34 <mickeyl> and in the end hope it'll get better than the official product
Jun 18 17:10:38 <mickeyl> so that we just use that one ;)
Jun 18 17:10:51 <mickeyl> but don't tell that the officials :D
Jun 18 17:11:11 * wurp2 's lips are sealed.
Jun 18 17:14:35 <mickeyl> bbiab
Jun 18 17:14:44 <cyrilRomain> I'm just curious: what working workflow do you, openmoko devs, use to develop applications ? 1. Debugging directly on the Neo/FreeRunner ? 2. Debugging in qemu ? 3. Debugging with qemux86 ? 4. Test with i686 ?
Jun 18 17:16:06 <jmichel> I want to build my software for OM, usually I use "inherit autotools" in a bb file to build. What if I want the build to configure with some --enable- options ?
Jun 18 17:16:19 <balrog-kun> cyrilRomain: the core devs test high-level stuff on their i686 and then when it's done on the Neo, and the low level stuff directly on the Neo
Jun 18 17:17:00 <cyrilRomain> balrog-kun: thanks
Jun 18 17:17:07 <jmichel> Do I need to create a do_configure() proceedure in my .bb file
Jun 18 17:18:00 <cyrilRomain> jmichel: you can use EXTRA_OECONF += "--enable-this --disable-that"
Jun 18 17:18:20 <jmichel> cyrilRomain: Thanks 
Jun 18 17:18:45 <cekay> hey guys, how do i build an openmoko image in oe which uses the andy kernel branch?
Jun 18 17:19:28 <cyrilRomain> balrog-kun: I'm struggling to do high-level stuff with qtopia-x11, but it's not ready for i686 or qemux86, and qemu is rather slow :-/
Jun 18 17:20:59 <balrog-kun> cyrilRomain: well, that's the difference between normal development and embedded development i'm afraid :p
Jun 18 17:21:57 <balrog-kun> you either use real hardware (slow, sometimes unavailable) or i686 (incompatible) or emulation (slow again, sometimes incompatible)
Jun 18 17:52:41 <kdean06> Running make update with MokoMakefile is giving me an "invalid upstream origin/bitbake-om" error. Is this a problem with the script or one of my config options, and if so, how would I correct?
Jun 18 17:53:43 <kdean06> I'm getting a build error on qtopia-phone-x11 and not sure if the version I've got isn't out of date, but update errors out. :)
Jun 18 17:54:10 <cb22[eee]> :)?
Jun 18 17:57:02 <kdean06> Not too happy about it, but wanted to give info on why I'm having problems in case there's a better solution.,
Jun 18 18:13:21 <cyrilRomain> kdean06: 'make update-bitbake' works here
Jun 18 18:15:15 <cyrilRomain> kdean06: and if you want to build ASU, you have to change OM_GIT_BRANCH to org.openmoko.asu.stable or org.openmoko.asu.dev
Jun 18 18:26:21 <kdean06> cyrilRomain, make update-bitbake throws the same error. And I've made the config changes, to the GIT branch and the om-gta02 line.
Jun 18 18:26:50 <kdean06> I deleted the sources and used bitbake rebuild, qtopia-phone-x11 still fails.
Jun 18 18:29:17 <kdean06> The errors I'm getting are -> http://pastebin.ca/1050356
Jun 18 18:35:29 <CIA-47> freesmartphone.org: 03sudharsh * rb701fc76480a 10/odeviced/src/plugins/backlight/ (backlight.c backlight.vala): fixed incorrect node in the constructor
Jun 18 18:43:35 <cyrilRomain> kdean06: http://www.mail-archive.com/openmoko-devel@lists.openmoko.org/msg02301.html
Jun 18 18:43:59 <cyrilRomain> kdean06: so you can try 'make setup-bitbake' and then 'make update-bitbake'
Jun 18 18:44:39 <cyrilRomain> kdean06: or maybe do you have an old MokoMakefile, then you can 'make update-makefile' to get the last one (backup yours beforehand)
Jun 18 18:48:24 <cyrilRomain> kdean06: for your build problem, it looks as if there is a missing include file in qt_x11_p.h, or for some reason an include path is missing
Jun 18 18:48:25 <kdean06> I didn't realize you had to do the clobber part with fresh isntalls
Jun 18 18:48:52 <woglinde> hm
Jun 18 18:48:57 <woglinde> zecke is at sleep now
Jun 18 18:48:59 <woglinde> *g*
Jun 18 18:49:59 <kdean06> make clobber update makefile causes the same error. :P
Jun 18 18:51:59 <cyrilRomain> kdean06: 'make update-makefile' not 'make update makefile' to update your makefile
Jun 18 18:52:32 <kdean06> Makefile is the latest version. 
Jun 18 18:52:48 <kdean06> This build environment was setup yesterday morning and is based on GIT.
Jun 18 18:53:44 <cyrilRomain> kdean06: did you setup the environment with 'make setup' ?
Jun 18 18:53:51 <kdean06> Yes
Jun 18 18:53:58 <kdean06> I followed the wiki instructions.
Jun 18 18:54:12 <kdean06> Including cleaning and retrying three times before complaining "it doesn't work!" :P
Jun 18 18:54:29 <cyrilRomain> kdean06: :p :-/
Jun 18 18:55:55 <cyrilRomain> kdean06: what does 'git branch -a' say when you run that from the bitbake directory ?
Jun 18 18:57:11 <kdean06> Incorrect usage. :)
Jun 18 18:58:08 <kdean06> git-branch -l perhaps? bitbake-om, master, origin?
Jun 18 19:01:50 <cyrilRomain> kdean06: hmm, or you remove the bitbake directory and do a 'git clone git://git.openmoko.org/git/bitbake.git bitbake' from /home/kevin/moko/
Jun 18 19:03:11 <cyrilRomain> if it works, it doesn't help to find the cause of your problem though ..
Jun 18 19:05:31 <CIA-47> freesmartphone.org: 03sudharsh * r552480dcefdb 10/odeviced/src/ (6 files in 2 dirs): support for automatic dbus object path creation in power plugin
Jun 18 19:46:02 <zash> asscrap
Jun 18 19:47:28 <methril|laptop> good night
Jun 18 19:48:01 <zash> 143 for, 138 against copying all internet traffic to and from sweden to a surveillance computer operated by a part of the defence
Jun 18 19:48:09 <zash> ASS CRAP FUCK i say
Jun 18 19:49:29 <woglinde> calm down
Jun 18 19:50:24 <CVirus> zash: I thought those are good news ?
Jun 18 19:50:55 <zash> how is that good?
Jun 18 19:50:58 <CVirus> ahh .. 138 against
Jun 18 19:50:59 <CVirus> wtf
Jun 18 19:51:16 <zash> '<' != '>'
Jun 18 19:51:44 <henkie> zash, dont you feel more safe now?
Jun 18 19:52:05 <zash> from what ..
Jun 18 19:52:21 <abraxa_> Looks like Sweden just lost some of its reputation...
Jun 18 19:52:28 <SpeedEvil> zash: flying monkey attack of course.
Jun 18 19:52:54 * SpeedEvil passes zash a really large one-time-pad.
Jun 18 19:54:27 <mjr> abraxa_, such as it was, yes
Jun 18 19:55:59 <josch> :(
Jun 18 19:56:16 <josch> I'm afraid i have an on topic question in this time of darkness...
Jun 18 19:56:51 <josch> josch@josch:~$ sudo cu -l /dev/ttyACM0
Jun 18 19:56:52 <josch> cu: open (/dev/ttyACM0): Permission denied
Jun 18 19:56:52 <josch> cu: /dev/ttyACM0: Line in use
Jun 18 19:56:54 <josch> <= why??
Jun 18 19:57:18 <zash> josch: does the tty exist?
Jun 18 19:57:38 <zash> lsof /dev/ttyACM0
Jun 18 19:57:58 <josch> of course
Jun 18 19:58:02 <josch> checked this first
Jun 18 19:58:13 <josch> josch@josch:~$ ls /dev/ttyACM0 -lha
Jun 18 19:58:13 <josch> crw-rw---- 1 root dialout 166, 0 2008-06-18 17:18 /dev/ttyACM0
Jun 18 19:58:24 <zash> hm
Jun 18 19:58:40 <zash> and you are in the dialout groop?
Jun 18 19:58:46 <josch> i used use
Jun 18 19:58:48 <josch> i am root
Jun 18 19:58:58 <josch> s/use/sudo
Jun 18 20:19:50 <josch> got the solution
Jun 18 20:19:57 <josch> i have to do a chmod 666 everytime
Jun 18 20:19:59 <josch> evil
Jun 18 20:20:12 <cb22[eee]> 777 is more evil
Jun 18 20:20:33 <cb22[eee]> 4777 is the evilest
Jun 18 20:22:01 <CVirus> chown -R cvirus /
Jun 18 20:22:03 <CVirus> the worst
Jun 18 20:22:11 <josch> hehe
Jun 18 20:22:22 <CVirus> I did that accidentally before
Jun 18 20:22:27 * cb22[eee] attempts to build a simple, modular cron replacement in python
Jun 18 20:22:35 <cb22[eee]> i'm bored
Jun 18 20:22:46 <cb22[eee]> CVirus, once i chown -R www:www / :/
Jun 18 20:24:25 <zash> lol
Jun 18 20:25:09 <josch> where ist this directory ":/" ?
Jun 18 20:25:12 <josch> :D
Jun 18 20:25:55 <methril|laptop> for the bored ones
Jun 18 20:26:13 <methril|laptop> someone has failure in the make os gcc-native?
Jun 18 21:29:30 <dcordes_> mickey|sofa: got some photos or videos of openmoko-fso on freerunner/neo/* ?
Jun 18 21:29:50 <mickeyl> dcordes_: good idea. i'll tape a video tomorrow
Jun 18 21:30:05 <dcordes_> cool ping me I will show the kaiser fans
Jun 18 21:30:41 <dcordes_> I put a folder with the latest kaiser kernel build and everything else necessary to boot http://linuxtogo.org/~lgorris/kaiser-bootkit/
Jun 18 21:30:50 <mickeyl> awesome work!
Jun 18 21:34:16 <kattle87> hi all
Jun 18 21:34:19 <dcordes_> mickeyl: we can read the gps data now and there is also progress with AT write
Jun 18 21:34:52 <dcordes_> mickeyl: but same as the modem, gps needs to be switched on in wince on boottime because we can't switch them ourselves yet
Jun 18 21:35:13 <kattle87> I have had an Idea for an advertising video; where can I post it so everyone can give it a read and tell me if it's a good or garbage idea?
Jun 18 21:35:24 <mickeyl> dcordes_: mmh, i understand
Jun 18 21:35:27 <SpeedEvil> Here.
Jun 18 21:36:00 <kattle87> what about also on mailing list? Are ideas welcome? ;)
Jun 18 21:36:09 <mickeyl> of course
Jun 18 21:36:50 <wurp2> We hate ideas.
Jun 18 21:37:12 <kattle87> however: this is the idea; the scene tooks place in a train, two people are sitting near each other. One is dressed business-man like, with a brand new IPhone, the other should be a young guy, with his awesome Neo Freerunner.
Jun 18 21:37:43 <kattle87> The business man is playing with some basic game (solitaire?) then an important phone call arrives: something like "BOSS" should be present in the caller name. Suddenly the IPhone shuts down and the "Battery is low" screen appears. The man is in full panic, he sees that the train has plugs, but he only has the USB cable (if I'm not wrong the IPhone is shipped only with USB cave for recharging!). The man panics a little more, but the guy helps him by us
Jun 18 21:37:43 <markus> I can’t find my blog on the Web, where is it?
Jun 18 21:39:20 <kattle87> what do you think about this? Is it worth sending to mailing list or no?
Jun 18 21:39:45 <SpeedEvil> by us?
Jun 18 21:39:52 <wurp2> kattle87: We didn't get the whole thing
Jun 18 21:40:43 <Qwell> kattle87: "helps him by u"
Jun 18 21:40:46 <Qwell> you got cut off there
Jun 18 21:41:15 <kattle87> oh... this was last part: but the guy helps him by using the FreeRunner USB Host feature. As soon the IPhone is plugged, the "charging" screen appears on it and the business man can finally turn on the phone and call his boss.
Jun 18 21:42:18 <kattle87> the idea behind this video is that the FreeRunner is more than a simple Smartphone... It should be presented as a tiny PC
Jun 18 21:42:54 <kdean06> Better make it a series to tell the inverse too. :P
Jun 18 21:42:57 <wurp2> Well, the FR won't power an external device w/o a Y cable to splice in external power
Jun 18 21:43:08 <abraxa_> wurp2: Yes it will
Jun 18 21:43:19 <kdean06> wurp2, The 1973 won't without power, the Freerunner can.
Jun 18 21:43:33 <wurp2> abraxa_, kdean06: Really?  Cool!
Jun 18 21:43:34 <kdean06> Of course, there's battery life issues...
Jun 18 21:43:38 <wurp2> Sure
Jun 18 21:43:43 <SpeedEvil> Naah. Freerunner user uploads an exploit onto his phone, and downloads his bank details. Ends with FR user on a beach somewhere.
Jun 18 21:43:51 <kdean06> But yeah, I'm told it can.
Jun 18 21:43:58 <Qwell> SpeedEvil: there you go
Jun 18 21:43:58 <wurp2> What's the amperage?
Jun 18 21:44:05 <woglinde> SpeedEvil *g*
Jun 18 21:44:12 <kdean06> I like that one a lot. :P
Jun 18 21:44:21 <SpeedEvil> wurp2: 0.5A - reportedly - but that was a bit ago.
Jun 18 21:44:26 <kattle87> really? ^^ tnx
Jun 18 21:44:59 <wurp2> SpeedEvil: wow, it seems battery life would be a big issue, in that case
Jun 18 21:45:15 <SpeedEvil> wurp2: sure - if you use it. Idle current will be _much_ lower.
Jun 18 21:45:56 <kattle87> but we can exploit the feature for a short amount of time for really doing a call using an IPhone I think
Jun 18 21:46:11 <wurp2> I would think so
Jun 18 21:46:25 <SpeedEvil> Or running a USB fan.
Jun 18 21:46:28 <SpeedEvil> Or ...
Jun 18 21:46:35 <Qwell> usb lava lamp
Jun 18 21:46:42 <wurp2> Charging your other FR!
Jun 18 21:46:46 <SpeedEvil> USB missile launcher.
Jun 18 21:46:55 <SpeedEvil> wurp2: OMG! Perpetum mobile!
Jun 18 21:46:59 <Qwell> wurp2: link them together..  have them charge each other
Jun 18 21:47:04 <wurp2> damn straight
Jun 18 21:47:11 <wurp2> conservation of energy, my ass
Jun 18 21:47:12 <kattle87> yeah, you got the point! the FreeRunner must be presented as something you can plug standard USB peripherals: imagine one transferring data from a USB key, MP3 player, and EVEN SOME DIGITAL CAMERAS
Jun 18 21:47:39 <SpeedEvil> key: pointless. First it needs to be a good phone.
Jun 18 21:47:41 <kattle87> the FR is the HUB of portabile multimedia! :D
Jun 18 21:47:57 <SpeedEvil> If it's not a good basic phone, all else is utterly pointless.
Jun 18 21:48:38 <kattle87> if it is not advertised, it will never have a future :/
Jun 18 21:49:16 <wurp2> Has anyone ever seen the business model?  How many phones do they have to move to be profitable?
Jun 18 21:50:52 <SpeedEvil> 1. Make phones.
Jun 18 21:51:01 <SpeedEvil> 2. Underpants.
Jun 18 21:51:04 <SpeedEvil> 3. Profit.
Jun 18 21:51:08 <SpeedEvil> Or something.
Jun 18 21:51:45 <SpeedEvil> I would put the cost of a FR at at most $180 or so in 5K - probably less.
Jun 18 21:52:25 <SpeedEvil> Add up all the teams salaries for the period, and you get - at the absolute optimistic end - IIRC the neo1973 losing a moderate amount of money.
Jun 18 21:52:48 <SpeedEvil> It really probably needs to sell >>10K for it to start making real money.
Jun 18 21:53:12 <wurp2> It sounds as if they are thinking that they will sell >10K
Jun 18 21:53:14 <wurp2> but not >>
Jun 18 21:53:38 <wurp2> I would just like to hear the figures from someone who has seen actual costs & profits
Jun 18 21:53:48 <wurp2> or at least detailed estimates
Jun 18 21:54:31 <SpeedEvil> I would imagine those would only be available to a very few of the core team.
Jun 18 21:54:31 <SpeedEvil> They would be utterly insane to reveal them in general.
Jun 18 21:54:31 <SpeedEvil> I can't think of an argument why it'd be a good plan to.
Jun 18 21:54:56 <kattle87> so, I will post the Idea of my video on mailing list tomorrow. It's midnight here in Italy so I'm gonna sleep now.
Jun 18 21:55:05 <SpeedEvil> night.
Jun 18 21:55:18 <wurp2> Because it could motivate the community to help sell more if you see they're falling short
Jun 18 21:55:26 <kattle87> night!
Jun 18 21:56:43 <zedstar_> i remember someone did some youtube ads for the Neo
Jun 18 22:09:46 <tunys> helloes!
Jun 18 22:10:01 <tunys> haz question
Jun 18 22:10:13 <tunys> with what would one view the FreeRunner CAD fiels?
Jun 18 22:10:14 * SpeedEvil has flavour.
Jun 18 22:10:22 <tunys> never heard of /prt
Jun 18 22:10:25 <tunys> i mean .prt
Jun 18 22:10:26 <tunys> and files
Jun 18 22:10:42 <tunys> SpeedEvil, Flavor.
Jun 18 22:11:08 * mjr waits for it
Jun 18 22:11:18 <tunys> anyone know?
Jun 18 22:11:19 <SpeedEvil> Type /part for more info
Jun 18 22:12:02 <SpeedEvil> Dunno seriousl.
Jun 18 22:12:11 <tunys> SpeedEvil, /me and /quit are on a boat. /me jumps off. Who's still on the boat?
Jun 18 22:12:23 <SpeedEvil>  /quit
Jun 18 22:12:36 * tunys is wet
Jun 18 22:12:57 <tunys> So nobody knows what I should use to view the files?
Jun 18 22:13:06 <tunys> Then who created them? :P
Jun 18 22:13:07 <SpeedEvil> www.dotwhat.net/lang_eng/files_p/extension_prt/id_4339/
Jun 18 22:13:08 <SpeedEvil> ?
Jun 18 22:14:23 <SpeedEvil> I assume 'file' does not know?
Jun 18 22:14:36 <mickeyl> it's probably some $$$ windows program
Jun 18 22:17:03 <tunys> mickeyl, or Mac
Jun 18 22:17:07 <mickeyl> ya
Jun 18 22:17:10 <CVirus> 01:12] <tunys> SpeedEvil, /me and /quit are on a boat. /me jumps off. Who's still on the boat?
Jun 18 22:17:11 <CVirus> haha
Jun 18 22:17:35 * tunys is stupid to jump off like that
Jun 18 22:18:20 <tunys> This file was saved from Pro/Engineer Wildfire 3.0.
Jun 18 22:18:20 <tunys> Open via gta02-mme01.asm.
Jun 18 22:18:23 <Qwell> /quit is the dumb one.  What isn't mentioned, is that the boat is on fire.
Jun 18 22:20:11 <tunys> http://www.ptc.com/products/proengineer/
Jun 18 22:20:27 <tunys> Why not use a free, open source program to generate the files?
Jun 18 22:21:35 <mjr> iirc the case was legacy, plus I'm not really sure there's any reasonable free software for that...
Jun 18 22:21:41 <mmontour> tunys: Do you know of a free, open source program with all of the capabilities of Pro/E?
Jun 18 22:22:14 <tunys> mmontour, That's exactly what I'm looking for right now.
Jun 18 22:22:18 <tunys> There's blender.
Jun 18 22:22:18 <CVirus> And why are the testers using .xls for their test reports ?
Jun 18 22:22:30 <mjr> CVirus, now that is a better question :)
Jun 18 22:22:36 <tunys> CVirus, are they really? :/
Jun 18 22:22:43 <CVirus> yup
Jun 18 22:22:43 <mmontour> Also, the choice of CAD program is often determined by what your partners/suppliers/etc. are using
Jun 18 22:22:53 <mjr> mmontour, *nod*
Jun 18 22:22:59 <tunys> Ah, FIC probably uses it then
Jun 18 22:23:05 <CVirus> http://people.openmoko.org/testing/software/Testreport/20080613/
Jun 18 22:23:40 <mmontour> A couple of companies ago we evaluated a few options and preferred SolidWorks internally, but went with Pro/E for interoperability reasons
Jun 18 22:24:55 <tunys> Interoperability? Well I run Ubuntu Linux, how do I view the files?
Jun 18 22:25:38 <hfsplus> tunys: OpenOffice
Jun 18 22:25:48 <mmontour> I don't know, but you might find something in the community mailing-list archive.
Jun 18 22:25:51 <tunys> hfsplus, not the spreadsheets, the CAD files
Jun 18 22:25:53 <hfsplus> oh
Jun 18 22:25:59 <kdean06> I chuckle that Openmoko released tests in xls
Jun 18 22:27:24 <tunys> This is a very long and well-formatted spreadsheet.
Jun 18 22:28:38 <mjr> yeah they looked nice enough apart from the file format :]
Jun 18 22:30:10 <doc|work> woohoo, 3.5mm ftw
Jun 18 22:30:24 <SpeedEvil> ?
Jun 18 22:30:35 * mjr really doesn't care much
Jun 18 22:30:43 <doc|work> going to stick with 3.5mm audio outputs
Jun 18 22:30:56 <doc|work> mjr: just handy when you have all 3.5mm headphones
Jun 18 22:30:56 <SpeedEvil> Has anyone gotten the 'hold' button to work?
Jun 18 22:31:29 <SpeedEvil> There was a note on bugzilla that you need to play with the alsa settings to get it to work, but I can't get it to.
Jun 18 22:31:53 <tunys> SpeedEvil, well some of us don't have Neos, did you think of that?
Jun 18 22:32:20 <SpeedEvil> Well, you should have bought one.
Jun 18 22:32:44 <tunys> Well, I'm gonna get me a FreeRunner!
Jun 18 22:32:51 <mjr> tunys, did you have a better channel in mind for openmoko/neo questions then?
Jun 18 22:33:25 <SpeedEvil> It's a question I could relatively easily answer with schematics.
Jun 18 22:33:32 <tunys> mjr, it was a joke!
Jun 18 22:33:42 <tunys> jeez! You people are too serious.
Jun 18 22:33:44 <SpeedEvil> But without schematics that say 'hold button is connected to a transistor on the ...'
Jun 18 22:34:04 <mjr> hip bone
Jun 18 22:36:20 <eyelessfade> wow that was a lot of Failed an Posponed tests
Jun 18 22:51:44 <dcordes_> mickey|zzZZzz: you were always asking for kaiser status. here you go Wanna get involved? Join #htc-linux on irc.freenode.net
Jun 18 22:52:02 <dcordes_> oops wrong paste
Jun 18 22:52:07 <dcordes_> http://linuxtogo.org/~lgorris/kaiser-bootkit/README.txt
Jun 18 23:01:33 <tunys> i think I give up.
Jun 18 23:02:22 <tunys> dcordes, there's a typo in that txt
Jun 18 23:02:23 <tunys> I won't detail on cross compilling here. Find more detailed instruction at http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=396782
Jun 18 23:02:33 <tunys> shouldn't it be "compiling"?
Jun 18 23:10:47 <jOERG> speedevil: hold-button needs mic-bias to be "on". then on pressing button you get a high>low transition on EINT19(GTA01)/EINT7(GTA02)
Jun 18 23:17:02 <dcordes_> tunys: thanks
Jun 18 23:17:23 <dcordes_> I guess there are plenty
Jun 18 23:19:53 <tunys> yo mmontour 
Jun 18 23:20:02 <mmontour> ?
Jun 18 23:20:18 <tunys> Blender supports Pro/E files, but not the ones that were released
Jun 18 23:20:45 <tunys> mmontour, it wants .slp
Jun 18 23:27:59 <mmontour> tunys: Here's one thread from the ML about format conversions: http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-January/012789.html . I don't know if that helps or not.
Jun 18 23:28:03 <BBishop> anyone knows if gta02's wifi is compatible with aircrack-ng ?
Jun 18 23:29:22 <tunys> mmontour, he signed that email twice :D
Jun 18 23:29:33 <tunys> mmontour, what's STEP and IEGS?
Jun 18 23:29:47 <tunys> IGES, rather
Jun 18 23:30:52 <SpeedEvil> BBishop: reportedly not
Jun 18 23:30:55 <mmontour> Different CAD formats - wikipedia has details.
Jun 18 23:31:14 <BBishop> dang .. another - 
Jun 18 23:31:45 <SpeedEvil> jOERG: I need to play with alsamixer again, I'm sure I tried all of the combinations on and off. 
Jun 18 23:31:49 <SpeedEvil> jOERG: Thanks
Jun 18 23:32:52 <jOERG> speedevil: alsamixer is quite tricky. Some of the control's names aren't what they should be :-(
Jun 18 23:33:06 <SpeedEvil> :/
Jun 18 23:33:11 <jOERG> but I guess mic-bias should be just mic-bias
Jun 18 23:33:44 <SpeedEvil> My phone is in the other room, and I'd need to get out of bed.
Jun 18 23:33:52 <SpeedEvil> I'll have another play tomorrow.
Jun 18 23:34:10 <SpeedEvil> I was wanting it to mark points for OSM.
Jun 18 23:34:24 <jOERG> I had a long thread on this on kernelml or developer-ml. don't exactly remember
Jun 18 23:34:40 <BBishop> I'd really love the wifi to be compatible with aircrack-ng .. 
Jun 18 23:34:48 <BBishop> oh well .. maybe I'll get gta03
Jun 18 23:34:50 <SpeedEvil> jOERG: I'll do some searching.
Jun 18 23:34:50 <jOERG> jep. it's ideal for things like this
Jun 18 23:35:13 <jOERG> ok. the essence is: you have to look at...
Jun 18 23:35:27 <jOERG> mompl
Jun 18 23:35:55 <jOERG> http://git.openmoko.org/?p=kernel.git;a=blob;f=sound/soc/codecs/wm8753.c;h=e9ad1aad7ccae0d45b580ab0c875b1534aa727c8;hb=stable#l90
Jun 18 23:36:05 <jOERG> which is wm8753.c
Jun 18 23:36:09 <jOERG> and...
Jun 18 23:36:30 <jOERG> http://git.openmoko.org/?p=kernel.git;a=blob;f=sound/soc/codecs/wm8753.h;h=95e2a1f53169f6ee9fd5da0e9c1ed14c7af1581f;hb=stable
Jun 18 23:36:38 <jOERG> which is wm8753.h
Jun 18 23:36:42 <jOERG> and...
Jun 18 23:37:02 <SpeedEvil> Ok - so it's just chasing through the pins and mixer names.
Jun 18 23:37:38 <jOERG> ahh, don't find the url: anyway the wolfson register numbers in mixers datasheet
Jun 18 23:37:42 <SpeedEvil> OR maybe I screwed up with alsamixer
Jun 18 23:38:13 <jOERG> so you can tell which alsa mixer control is changing what in mixer
Jun 18 23:38:22 <jOERG> mixer enables mic-bias
Jun 18 23:38:29 <SpeedEvil> Hmm.
Jun 18 23:38:42 <jOERG> you have some voltage on 3. ring of jack
Jun 18 23:38:43 <SpeedEvil> I can measure mic-bias on the pins of the socket I suppose
Jun 18 23:38:50 <SpeedEvil> That'd be the easy way
Jun 18 23:38:58 <jOERG> when you press button, it drops - short to ground
Jun 18 23:39:14 <SpeedEvil> Thanks!
Jun 18 23:39:28 <jOERG> wellcome
Jun 18 23:39:34 <SpeedEvil> A trivial app to log timestamp and buttonpress should be all that's needed then.
Jun 18 23:40:06 <SpeedEvil> I've already been using tangoGPS for a bit of mapping.
Jun 18 23:40:07 <jOERG> there should be some irq-driver for hold_button i guess
Jun 18 23:40:43 <SpeedEvil> I'd hope it appears on /dev/input/event* - otherwise I'll investigate further after finding the volts drop.
Jun 18 23:40:53 <jOERG> but I donno, ask mickey, wpwrak, andy or some other of the kernel-hackers
Jun 18 23:41:10 <SpeedEvil> Kernel - I can sort of work-out.
Jun 18 23:41:22 <jOERG> sorry? find volts-drop???
Jun 18 23:41:22 <SpeedEvil> I was just having problems with the initial step.
Jun 18 23:42:00 <SpeedEvil> Measure mic-bias with DMM - verify drops to 0 when hold pressed
Jun 18 23:42:31 <jOERG> you enable mic_bias -> there should be some 3V via 2k on ring 3 then. here we go
Jun 18 23:42:34 <SpeedEvil> If that happens, I know I've got the bias on, and it should be reporting events, and anything else is a kernel issue that I can look at.
Jun 18 23:42:53 <jOERG> sure it will, given your headset is standard
Jun 18 23:43:27 <jOERG> hold button just shorts the mic to gnd
Jun 18 23:43:29 <SpeedEvil> Thanks again. I assume with mic bias on I should also in principle be able to record from the mic?
Jun 18 23:43:40 <jOERG> yep
Jun 18 23:44:04 <SpeedEvil> Though that raises the whole twisty maze of audio routers, all the same issue.
Jun 18 23:44:12 <mmu_man> plop
Jun 18 23:44:14 <SpeedEvil> (if it's not enabled by default)
Jun 18 23:44:26 <tunys> yeah, i give up.
Jun 18 23:44:38 <tunys> so does anyone have some high-res pics of the CAD files instead?
Jun 18 23:44:41 <mmu_man> I'm wondering if the FreeRunner can boot off the microSD card
Jun 18 23:44:55 <SpeedEvil> mmu_man: it can
Jun 18 23:45:05 <mmu_man> (if I'm ever to port Haiku to it)
Jun 18 23:45:07 <mmu_man> great
Jun 18 23:45:14 <SpeedEvil> mmu_man: but it's not completely straightforward - there is a writeup on the wiki I think.
Jun 18 23:45:17 <jOERG> again: you have to check the diagram of mixer, find your way, find the controls, set them via alsamixer... no more than that
Jun 18 23:45:19 <BBishop> what's haiku ?
Jun 18 23:45:20 <SpeedEvil> mmu_man: what's haiku?
Jun 18 23:45:23 <mmu_man> means I could leave the linux firmware so I can use it and still test Haiku :)
Jun 18 23:45:28 <mmu_man> http://haiku-os.org
Jun 18 23:45:36 <mmu_man> BeOS rewrite under BSD/MIT
Jun 18 23:45:59 <SpeedEvil> jOERG: yeah - I know. I have a half-written thingy to do mixer routing.
Jun 18 23:46:03 <BBishop> ow
Jun 18 23:46:04 <SpeedEvil> But...
Jun 18 23:46:16 <jOERG> nice :-)
Jun 18 23:47:15 <mmu_man> SpeedEvil: tried using OSS instead ? :D
Jun 18 23:47:31 <SpeedEvil> mmu_man: the issue is the 96(?) or so mixers
Jun 18 23:47:39 <SpeedEvil> mmu_man: not the mixing app.
Jun 18 23:47:55 <mmu_man> (yes OSS still exists, I actually ported it to Haiku and now I have sound from the native API on my ATIIXP (crap) based laptop)
Jun 18 23:49:41 <mmu_man> 96 ? that's a bit much :)
Jun 18 23:49:45 * SpeedEvil braves the lions, and asks the inevitable question.
Jun 18 23:49:57 <SpeedEvil> mmu_man: why not just use linux?
Jun 18 23:50:13 <doc|work> where's the fun in that?
Jun 18 23:50:28 * SpeedEvil ponders a GEM+Qemu solution.
Jun 18 23:51:01 <mmu_man> SpeedEvil: why not use WinCE ?
Jun 18 23:51:05 <mmu_man> same answer
Jun 18 23:51:08 <mmu_man> fun
Jun 18 23:51:17 <SpeedEvil> WinCE requires paying microsoft.
Jun 18 23:51:23 <mmu_man> yeah right
Jun 18 23:52:06 <SpeedEvil> It's not a completely trivial question - I assume the project is aimed at something other than duplicating the linux kernel for the fun of it.
Jun 18 23:52:08 <mmu_man> still, everyone using windows in proprietary world doesn't mean everyone should use linux in the free world
Jun 18 23:52:21 <mmu_man> it's all about technodiversity
Jun 18 23:52:38 <doc|work> not everyone in the proprietary world uses windows
Jun 18 23:52:40 <mmu_man> besides BeOS (and Haiku) still has some tricks Linux still didn't copy :)
Jun 18 23:52:42 * doc|work points to apple.com
Jun 18 23:52:46 <SpeedEvil> And a OS kernel is largely irrelevant without application software, so you're still going to be running Kde, ubuntu, or whatever on it.
Jun 18 23:52:53 <mmu_man> doc|work: exactly :)
Jun 18 23:53:05 <doc|work> mmu_man: what are those?
Jun 18 23:53:09 <mmu_man> SpeedEvil: actually not
Jun 18 23:53:24 <mmu_man> Haiku has its own software stack, windowing server and API
Jun 18 23:53:31 <mmu_man> the BeOS API that is
Jun 18 23:53:43 <SpeedEvil> mmu_man: Badly chosen examples - I mean perhaps thunderbird, firefox, inkscape, ...
Jun 18 23:53:55 <summatusmentis> you're running haiku? weird...
Jun 18 23:53:57 <mmu_man> well we do have a firefox port on BeOS
Jun 18 23:54:05 <mmu_man> summatusmentis: no, debian on that box
Jun 18 23:54:12 <mmu_man> but I do use BeOS for everyday use
Jun 18 23:54:25 <summatusmentis> what's the draw?
Jun 18 23:54:26 <mmu_man> because I still find Linux not ready for desktop
Jun 18 23:54:27 <SpeedEvil> Anyway - haiku is horribly limited.
Jun 18 23:54:34 <SpeedEvil> You can only install 17 apps.
Jun 18 23:54:54 <mmu_man> bebits.com has more than 17 apps btw
Jun 18 23:55:12 <summatusmentis> intriguing
Jun 18 23:55:15 <SpeedEvil> IME, the reason linux is not ready for desktop has nothing whatsoever to do with kernel issues.
Jun 18 23:55:22 <SpeedEvil> mmu_man: sorry - bad name joke.
Jun 18 23:55:42 <summatusmentis> SpeedEvil: I don't know... most recent ubuntu is pretty snazzy
Jun 18 23:55:56 <mmu_man> anyway, I find it funny the very same ppl who fight the windows monopoly can't imagine someone would want not to use linux :)
Jun 18 23:55:58 <SpeedEvil> The main reason linux isn't ready for the desktop is that consistent UI design over open-source projects makes herding cats look damn trivial.
Jun 18 23:56:07 <mmu_man> SpeedEvil: indeed, Linux is just the kernel
Jun 18 23:56:37 <mmu_man> but still, at kernel level there are some things I don't like. Some other things I welcomed which were used by BeOs 10 years ago :)
Jun 18 23:56:42 <SpeedEvil> Replace linux kernel with BeOS, and you have many of the same problems.
Jun 18 23:56:48 <SpeedEvil> s/many/most/
Jun 18 23:56:49 <apt_> SpeedEvil meant: Replace linux kernel with BeOS, and you have most of the same problems.
Jun 18 23:56:52 <mmu_man> like tickless, module hierarchy, ...
Jun 18 23:56:57 <summatusmentis> mmu_man: I don't use linux regularly, I much prefer OS X. I just didn't know anyone used anything beyond linux, OS X, windows(outside of the devs of the other ones)
Jun 18 23:57:23 <mmu_man> summatusmentis: just try /list and pick some channels
Jun 18 23:57:32 <dcordes_> lol herding cats
Jun 18 23:57:43 <mmu_man> like #NetSurf ... NetSurf is a browser made for RiscOS, because there are still ppl using it :)
Jun 18 23:57:51 <mmu_man> (it also runs on GTK, and I ported it to BeOSà
Jun 18 23:57:53 <summatusmentis> yeah, I'm not doubting they're vibrant communities, it just caught me off guard :)
Jun 18 23:58:06 <dcordes_> mmu_man: what's good in beos kernel vs linux?
Jun 18 23:59:11 <mmu_man> dcordes_: that would take some time to list (the BeOs kernel itseld is quite weak compared to linux, but it's old and unmaintained), but for example it never needed insmod or anything else, nor an ugly modules.conf
Jun 18 23:59:50 <mmu_man> drivers just load the modules them want, and they are organized in a physical and logical tree making it easy to understand
Jun 19 00:00:13 <mmu_man> drivers themselves are just loaded on the fly by devfs which just follows symlinks when somone opens /dev/foo/bar
Jun 19 00:00:59 <mmu_man> linux finally got a hierarchical tree for modules, but it still uses insmod...
Jun 19 00:01:48 <mmu_man> and linkage is done as in userland, so there is no clean API between modules
Jun 19 00:02:03 <CVirus> is the link on openmoko.com clickable ?
Jun 19 00:02:10 <CVirus> i mean does it direct to another page ?
Jun 19 00:02:11 <dcordes_> mmu_man: there's udev which automates modprobe/insmod
Jun 19 00:02:46 <mmu_man> BeOS enforces accessing moduels through function pointers organized in structures with an inheritance like way
Jun 19 00:03:00 <mmu_man> udev ? that's just hiding it :p
Jun 19 00:03:04 <mmu_man> anyway
Jun 19 00:03:21 <mmu_man> just try to find a stable driver API in linux...
Jun 19 00:03:45 <dcordes_> I like it more than windows
Jun 19 00:05:10 <dcordes_> linux that is :)
Jun 19 00:07:17 <mmu_man> of course, but it's nothing but stable
Jun 19 00:07:52 <mmu_man> anyway
Jun 19 00:08:08 <mmu_man> the cpu does have an mmu, right ?
Jun 19 00:08:21 <dcordes_> a memory management unit?
Jun 19 00:08:28 <SpeedEvil> yes.
Jun 19 00:08:34 <SpeedEvil> s3c2410
Jun 19 00:08:56 <SpeedEvil> 2440 for freerunner
Jun 19 00:08:58 <mmu_man> ah yes, ARM920T
Jun 19 00:09:01 <dcordes_> mmu_man: ohh you need to setup the virtual mapping entirely new eh?
Jun 19 00:09:20 <mmu_man> it's the 940T that doesn't...
Jun 19 00:09:36 <mmu_man> GP2X has both (why couldn't they just have twice the same and do SMP, dammit ?)
Jun 19 00:10:17 <mmu_man> dcordes_: well it's an OS, not just a shell on top of linux :p
Jun 19 00:10:25 <mmu_man> and yes, I've yet to port to ARM
Jun 19 00:10:35 <mmu_man> but I have m68k to finish first :)
Jun 19 00:10:47 <dcordes_> there is _no_ ARM work for Be present?
Jun 19 00:11:18 <mmu_man> Haiku
Jun 19 00:11:27 <mmu_man> BeOs is proprietary and not developped anymore
Jun 19 00:11:38 <mmu_man> (but yes there was a port, they used it for BeIA)
Jun 19 00:11:51 <mmu_man> (for kitchen appliances after the focus shift that killed them)
Jun 19 00:12:36 <dcordes_> mmu_man: kitchen?
Jun 19 00:12:39 <mmu_man> hmm ohh I2C... if the I2C bus available handy from outside ?
Jun 19 00:12:48 <dcordes_> they used BeIA in coffee machines?
Jun 19 00:12:52 <dcordes_> :P
Jun 19 00:13:05 <mmu_man> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BeIA
Jun 19 00:13:25 <mmu_man> eVilla, and another cancelled one that later got released with winCE
Jun 19 00:13:31 <mmu_man> IA-1
Jun 19 00:13:38 <dcordes_> I see but it doesn't help you because it's proprietary, that BeIA?
Jun 19 00:14:32 <mmu_man> yes
Jun 19 00:14:56 <mmu_man> I could dig the code somewhere but it's not worth it, would polute Haiku, and is probably for older ARMs anyway
Jun 19 00:15:00 <mmu_man> http://www.iapplianceweb.com/images/appweb/appliance_directory/internet_terminals/internet_terminal_compaq_ipaq_ia1_m.jpg
Jun 19 00:15:06 <dcordes_> sounds like a time consuming nontrivial project
Jun 19 00:15:33 <mmu_man> sounds a bit like OpenMoko, doesn't it ? :)
Jun 19 00:15:46 <mmu_man> wow, I never came across this one http://x00xie.org/c22/case_studies/ui/12_beia.html
Jun 19 00:15:56 <dcordes_> well people here don't poke around with registers and io devices
Jun 19 00:16:11 <dcordes_> anymore
Jun 19 00:16:19 <dcordes_> at least not for the current hardware
Jun 19 00:17:44 <dcordes_> mmu_man: can I try Haiku on my x86 desktop?
Jun 19 00:17:57 <mmu_man> well I can probably cope with some ported GPL drivers from linux :)
Jun 19 00:18:04 <mmu_man> we do have some GPL addons around alerady anyway
Jun 19 00:18:15 <mmu_man> dcordes_: sure there are QEMU and vmware images
Jun 19 00:18:18 <dcordes_> every part of neo/freerunner hardware is welldocumented
Jun 19 00:18:28 <dcordes_> oh I'd like the qemu image
Jun 19 00:18:36 * SpeedEvil points at the glamo.
Jun 19 00:18:48 <mmu_man> dcordes_: hmm except the video chip I see (NDA), but I can live with framebuffer
Jun 19 00:19:01 <dcordes_> mmu_man: glamo=video chip
Jun 19 00:19:09 <dcordes_> I didn't know about nda there
Jun 19 00:19:10 <mmu_man> http://www.haiku-os.org/downloads get the raw image
Jun 19 00:19:32 <mmu_man> the GTA02 specs on the wiki says it's under NDA (from IRC logs)
Jun 19 00:20:03 <dcordes_> mmu_man: I will pick the most bleeding http://haiku-files.org/raw/haiku.image.r26003.bz2
Jun 19 00:20:07 <mmu_man> http://revolf.free.fr/beos/shots/shot_haiku_m68k_loader_010.png work in progress atari Falcon port :)
Jun 19 00:20:35 <dcordes_> mmu_man: I mean I didn't know about it as in I wasn't aware of it
Jun 19 00:20:47 <dcordes_> I don't know too much about the moko hardware
Jun 19 00:23:02 <mmu_man> just read a few times about it
Jun 19 00:23:25 <mmu_man> there is a news about imminent *grin* shipping on http://linuxfr.org/
Jun 19 00:24:07 <mmu_man> so, anyone knows if the I2C bus is accessible from outside ?
Jun 19 00:24:34 <mmu_man> might be interesting to be able to add like temperature or pressure sensors, there are many funny I2C chips around
Jun 19 00:24:51 <SpeedEvil> Not trivially
Jun 19 00:24:58 <mmu_man> could be interesting for school tech classes also
Jun 19 00:25:07 <SpeedEvil> you can however attach a stubby PCB to the debug port, or solde.
Jun 19 00:25:38 <mmu_man> it's on the debug port ? I guess that's fine
Jun 19 00:26:12 <SpeedEvil> Or more practically, USB.
Jun 19 00:26:53 <mmu_man> yes but that'd need a bridge chip, even if it's a PIC
Jun 19 00:27:23 <mmu_man> ah the debug port pinout...
Jun 19 00:27:26 <mmu_man> hmm spi :)
Jun 19 00:29:20 <swc|666> here's a question... i see that the freerunner will (hopefully) be out soon... has there already been presales for it?
Jun 19 00:29:54 <SpeedEvil> No.
Jun 19 00:30:22 <swc|666> so first come/first server then?
Jun 19 00:30:37 <SpeedEvil> The hope is that there will be enough for everyone.
Jun 19 00:30:43 <SpeedEvil> The first batch is 8 billion.
Jun 19 00:30:49 <mmu_man> oh there is SDIO support
Jun 19 00:31:01 <dcordes_> mmu_man: don't you wanna port your operating system to sepak ARM first?
Jun 19 00:31:09 <mmu_man> sepak ?
Jun 19 00:31:30 <dcordes_> I mean if I got your right, there is no work for ARM you can base on
Jun 19 00:31:31 <mmu_man> I suppose I'll first target whatever qemu-system-arm supports
Jun 19 00:32:22 <balrog-k1n> qemu-system-arm speaks ARM :)
Jun 19 00:32:23 <mmu_man> there is an arm port of NewOS AFAIK; not sure how done it is. NewOS is the kernel we forked off for Haiku
Jun 19 00:32:48 <mmu_man> balrog-k1n: yes but there is more than the cpu, besides there are many dialects of ARM
Jun 19 00:33:25 <mmu_man> ARM9 ARM10 ARM11, thumb, with or without mmx-like opcodes, ...
Jun 19 00:33:44 <balrog-k1n> yeah
Jun 19 00:34:40 <balrog-k1n> S3C24xx forces you to use the most limited set of arm capabilities so that you can be sure your os runs on any other ARM too :)
Jun 19 00:35:04 <balrog-k1n> well, except the hw drivers
Jun 19 00:35:16 <mmu_man> great
Jun 19 00:35:23 <mmu_man> now I just need to find EUR330 :)
Jun 19 00:35:59 <mmu_man> (and I'll have to cash about this for RMLL in july anyway)
Jun 19 00:36:02 <SpeedEvil> balrog-k1n: there are smaller ARMs - but meh.
Jun 19 00:36:14 * SpeedEvil has one with a whole 20K of RAM.
Jun 19 00:36:19 <SpeedEvil> 32 bit though.
Jun 19 00:36:21 <mmu_man> yeah, like in 10yo HP Jornada :)
Jun 19 00:36:57 <mmu_man> I recall testing one at school, winCE was sooo buggy
Jun 19 00:37:06 <balrog-k1n> SpeedEvil: but their instruction set is not smaller than that of arm920
Jun 19 00:37:22 <balrog-k1n> arm920 is at the edge of being able to run linux, with its mmu :)
Jun 19 00:38:14 <mmu_man> well lower can run uCLinux
Jun 19 00:39:09 <balrog-k1n> you can't advertise a phone based on uCLinux as a linux phone i think
Jun 19 00:39:24 <SpeedEvil> balrog-k1n: yeah - the 20K chip I mentioned if it had a MMU could actually run linux (with software RAM drivers).
Jun 19 00:39:30 <SpeedEvil> It'd be silly, but you could.
Jun 19 00:39:32 <balrog-k1n> and porting beos to it would be even more work
Jun 19 00:40:58 <mmu_man> Haiku :)
Jun 19 00:41:36 <mmu_man> well, some early Sun stations had a 68000 with a custom mmu...
Jun 19 00:41:43 <mmu_man> but that I won't try to support :)
Jun 19 00:41:51 <balrog-k1n> err.. right :)
Jun 19 00:42:03 <mmu_man> 030 wil be enough
Jun 19 00:42:39 <balrog-k1n> what's 030?
Jun 19 00:43:03 <SpeedEvil> 68030
Jun 19 00:43:25 <balrog-k1n> oh
Jun 19 00:43:30 <mmu_man> that's what is in Atari Falcon, Amiga 4000 (but without mmu I think)
Jun 19 00:43:31 <balrog-k1n> Apple Macintosh II
Jun 19 00:43:33 <mmu_man> and Mac LC III
Jun 19 00:43:56 <mmu_man> I have an LC III around :)
Jun 19 00:46:58 <balrog-k1n> there's a wiki page about the porting of netbsd / openbsd to neo1973
Jun 19 00:47:13 <balrog-k1n> might give you some idea about the struggles of porting new OSes to neo1973
Jun 19 00:48:20 <balrog-k1n> http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/NetBSD <-- i think there was a more "report" like one somewhere
Jun 19 00:49:56 <mmu_man> oh great
Jun 19 00:50:22 <mmu_man> NetBSD runs really everywhere :)
Jun 19 00:50:34 <mmu_man> (including the BeBox, Falcon and Amiga :)
Jun 19 00:51:13 <mmu_man> oh and there is a qemu mod around. Yeah I recall seeing that once
Jun 19 00:52:24 <balrog-k1n> there are even screenshots :)
Jun 19 00:53:41 <balrog-k1n> i wonder how much of the openmoko userspace can be compiled for NetBSD
Jun 19 00:53:56 <dcordes_> didn't somebody apply for *bsd on moko hardware as gsoc project?
Jun 19 00:55:04 <balrog-k1n> oh, someone applied for Plan 9 port
Jun 19 00:55:10 <balrog-k1n> but was rejected accroding to the wiki
Jun 19 01:00:52 <mmu_man> plan9... UTF-8 \o/
Jun 19 01:47:04 <mmu_man> btw what's the DAS of the Runner ?
Jun 19 01:47:21 <mmu_man> hmm what's the english name... ah yeah SAR
Jun 19 01:47:42 <mmu_man> Specific Absorbsion Rate (sp?)
Jun 19 01:48:24 <mmu_man> s/bs/bt/
Jun 19 01:48:24 <apt_> mmu_man meant: Specific Abtorbsion Rate (sp?)
Jun 19 01:48:47 <mmu_man> not exactly
Jun 19 01:48:52 <mmu_man> s/bsi/bti/
Jun 19 01:48:59 <mmu_man> :D
Jun 19 01:49:40 <mmu_man> nothing at all on the wiki :-(
Jun 19 01:51:38 <mmu_man> so, noone knows about the SAR ?
Jun 19 01:55:33 <mmu_man> ping
Jun 19 02:03:38 <mmu_man> ah I think I found it
Jun 19 02:05:35 <mmu_man> http://people.openmoko.org/tony_tu/GTA02/certificate/EUNGTA02_850_1800_1900/FA7O1101_R01_FCC%20SAR_FIC_GTA02_for%20GSM.pdf :)
Jun 19 02:07:15 <mmu_man> it seems to be around 0.44, which isn't too bad
Jun 19 02:07:45 <mmu_man> hmm oh there is a 1.2 here...
Jun 19 02:08:12 <mmu_man> hmm ok it depends on the freq
Jun 19 02:09:01 <mmu_man> ok page 35, SAR Test Results...
Jun 19 02:09:44 <mmu_man> ok seems to all be under 0.5 W/Kg
Jun 19 02:09:59 <mmu_man> 0.8 at most
Jun 19 02:10:27 <mmu_man> much better than some other phones I know :)
Jun 19 02:11:42 <mmu_man> oh the page is on the othe pdf...
Jun 19 02:11:44 <mmu_man> older one
Jun 19 02:11:46 <CIA-45> openmoko: 03zecke 07softmenu-rework * r03d70badb46f 10/src/ (8 files in 4 dirs): [softmenu] Start using X Properties for the Soft Menu to avoid race conditions
Jun 19 02:12:59 <mmu_man> seems the runner figures are a bit higher than the previous model
Jun 19 02:14:11 <mmu_man> aw, the limit is 1.6 now ?
Jun 19 02:14:22 <mmu_man> odd, it seems to still be 2 in France
Jun 19 02:21:15 <mmu_man> n8
Jun 19 02:22:08 <xzcvczx_> :S someone forgot ipkg out of latest daily build
Jun 19 02:26:24 <CIA-45> openmoko: 03werner * r4490 10/developers/werner/bin/mdflt: 
Jun 19 02:26:24 <CIA-45> openmoko: mdflt: a simple Maildir (re)classifier that keeps me from completely drowning
Jun 19 02:26:24 <CIA-45> openmoko:  in mails ...
Jun 19 02:30:03 * xzcvczx_ learns how to read and shuts up :S
Jun 19 02:30:16 <kdean06> http://www.wired.com/culture/lifestyle/commentary/alttext/2008/06/alttext_0618
Jun 19 02:30:52 <kdean06> xzcvczx_, opkg has replaced ipkg. :)
Jun 19 02:31:04 * kdean06 learns how to read and shuts up.
Jun 19 02:34:07 <xzcvczx_> hmm getting 404's on all the daily-feed sigs :S
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Thu Jun 19 02:59:57 2008