**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Thu Sep 11 02:59:57 2008 Sep 11 03:12:32 i have the fso-testing image from shr.bearstech.com and my free runner tries to suspend/sleep every few seconds.. even while its on power. can i configure this manually, where should i be looking? Sep 11 03:16:07 did u see pidgin on it? Sep 11 03:19:53 i only compiled a fso Sep 11 03:20:03 but it should be in power management Sep 11 03:30:49 fen`: at the moment, no you can't. Sep 11 03:45:25 where does tango store maps by default if you use the tango gui to download the maps? Sep 11 03:46:57 /tmp, I think. See the config tab, repository section. Sep 11 03:47:05 cjb: thanks Sep 11 03:53:21 What do people think of FSO3 so far ? Sep 11 03:57:23 CVirus: they released FSO3 already? Sep 11 03:57:30 gta02v5_and_up-u-boot.bin ? Are all gta02's solv a v5 and up ? Sep 11 03:57:51 * LetoTo is looking at http://downloads.openmoko.org/releases/Om2008.8-update/ Sep 11 03:58:02 prjktdtnt: milestone 3 i mean Sep 11 03:59:04 LetoTo: if you *bought* it, its v5 or up Sep 11 04:00:52 Why is everything removed from there ! http://downloads.openmoko.org/framework/milestone3/ Sep 11 04:00:56 mickey|zzZZzz: ? Sep 11 04:02:26 because they ned to change it Sep 11 04:02:42 wanted* Sep 11 04:14:37 hrm does anyone know what the speed impact of the glamo 90MHz clock / turbo host patches are? Sep 11 04:15:12 bus bandwidth increase to 9M/s without blocking the cpu the entire time? Or perhaps something else? Sep 11 04:16:42 or is it (7M/s + 60%) + 12.5% (if so, yesssssss) Sep 11 04:16:50 90M/s! Sep 11 04:16:52 * ShellEvil hopes. Sep 11 04:17:21 90! I hope that *wasn't* a typo :-) Sep 11 04:18:50 (7M/s + 60%) + 12.5% is still only 12.6M/s but ... Sep 11 04:20:13 except then there is the reduction of waitstates from 3 -> 0 reducing memory bus timing by 3 clocks--I can't tell if andy's commit comment of 60% refers to just the 30->80MHz clockspeed change or to that + waitstate reduction Sep 11 04:20:49 'tho the commit comment seems to indicate that now the glamo won't jam down nWAIT as often Sep 11 04:20:57 is there a way to export a copy of the contacts on the sim as a vcard address-book Sep 11 04:20:57 ? Sep 11 04:21:04 compile and test? Sep 11 04:21:08 which, hey, 11-12M/s is alright if it isn't blocking the cpu the entire time Sep 11 04:21:25 7M isn't even too bad if it doesn't block the CPU. Sep 11 04:21:26 However. Sep 11 04:21:36 As I understand it, it's likely to block the CPU. Sep 11 04:21:41 does the debian image have a password .. it asks me for one when i ssh into the neo ? Sep 11 04:21:44 But I don't understand it in depth. Sep 11 04:21:59 lloyd_fedora: you've tried just hitting enter? Sep 11 04:22:26 ShellEvil: yes in the current state -- but did you see the glamo related andy branch patches a few weeks ago? Sep 11 04:22:38 ShellEvil: yes .. does not work Sep 11 04:23:01 unknown_lamer: no Sep 11 04:23:17 unknown_lamer: no hardware - so I can't really do meaningful tests. Sep 11 04:23:23 http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/commitlog/2008-August/005782.html Sep 11 04:23:45 but no comments other than a short thread on -devel about one of the patches causing resume issues Sep 11 04:24:07 the waitstates are a killer Sep 11 04:24:23 as any copeis to glamo get funneled through a tiny pipe at 7m/sec Sep 11 04:24:32 and during that time the cpu is basically hostage to glamo-write cycles Sep 11 04:24:44 if u could write asyncronously (no waitstates) Sep 11 04:24:49 raster: do you know what the implications of the first two patches there are? Sep 11 04:24:51 but still have 7m/sec it'd be much better Sep 11 04:24:58 thats what we tried to do with dma Sep 11 04:25:13 but dma just did the same thing - waitstate hell - and was worse than cpu copies Sep 11 04:25:14 but then the memory controller blocks and you are screwed anyway :-) Sep 11 04:25:22 bingo Sep 11 04:25:48 Does the 50-80MHz basically mean it goes from 7-10? Sep 11 04:25:50 but the two glamo patches from that commit seem to indicate that the glamo shouldn't assert nWAIT so much now? Sep 11 04:27:01 no idea Sep 11 04:28:11 hrm, I guess I'll post to -kernel and hope andy will say something Sep 11 04:30:20 last i knew glamos' internal clock was able to do 90mhz Sep 11 04:30:29 but was dropped to 80 due to instability Sep 11 04:31:18 slaxxin: wanted to change what exactly ? Sep 11 04:32:22 raster: yeah there was a short thread on -devel about the 90MHz patch causing resume not to work properly for at least one person Sep 11 04:32:35 raster: but 30 -> 80 for the bus is nice Sep 11 04:33:00 err 50 -> 80 Sep 11 04:33:14 lets see Sep 11 04:33:32 u'll notice it if it actually works Sep 11 04:35:02 Yes, there is a failure to resume that happens with the glamo patches; that's one of the problems that led to FSO3 being delayed. Sep 11 04:35:27 any date ? Sep 11 04:35:43 IMO, this highlights the silliness involved in trying to make things "go fast" and "look purdie", rather than focusing on make it work right to begin with. :( Sep 11 04:36:22 mwester: I thought andy was also working on a rather large patch to reorder the suspend/resume dependencies and kill all of the race conditions? Sep 11 04:36:37 CVirus: should be tomorrow I would think; the FSO image will drop back to the "stable" kernel instead of the "andy" kernel. Sep 11 04:36:53 would that make it suspend/resume reliably ? Sep 11 04:37:02 without wsod ? Sep 11 04:37:13 wozd! Sep 11 04:37:21 unknown_lamer: So I've heard. And then heard again. And then again. But we still have no code, and meanwhile I (and others I suspect) have stopped working on the kernel waiting for this major change. Sep 11 04:37:31 When the fsck is the wsod supposed to be fixed ffs !! Sep 11 04:37:45 CVirus: I haven't see a WSOD since the last patches I submitted; they went into "stable" weeks ago. Sep 11 04:38:02 mwester: what image are you using ? Sep 11 04:38:06 mwester: hopefully it is just a huge patch and taking him a while and he hasn't been tasked with other things Sep 11 04:38:25 mwester == werner ? Sep 11 04:38:29 CVirus: I've tried them all; they all pretty much fail (except the 2007.2) in one way or another. Sep 11 04:38:41 CVirus: no Sep 11 04:38:54 so .. no more wsod ? Sep 11 04:39:01 unknown_lamer: I'm worried about the latter part you write being true. Sep 11 04:39:31 mwester: will you please link me to your patches that fixed the wsod ? Sep 11 04:39:42 * raster ponders how best to tackle scaling... Sep 11 04:39:53 CVirus: Unknown. I can't reproduce it, but it seems to be reported by others, but I can't really know what kernel they are running, as there is no standard kernel identification. Sep 11 04:40:21 raster: integer multiplication, preferably powers of 2. :D Fast! Sep 11 04:40:44 mwester: will you please link me to your patches that fixed the wsod ? Sep 11 04:40:49 mwester: hahahaha Sep 11 04:40:52 nono Sep 11 04:40:54 ui scaling Sep 11 04:41:03 some bits of ui u want scaled Sep 11 04:41:05 some not Sep 11 04:41:10 some within limits Sep 11 04:41:10 mwester: how long does your battery stay alive with suspend/resume enabled ? Sep 11 04:41:19 eg Sep 11 04:41:20 mwester: do you think it is reliable at the moment ? Sep 11 04:41:30 u dont want to scale DOWN to a 2x2 pixel battery icon as its useless Sep 11 04:41:31 :) Sep 11 04:41:31 mwester: does it wake on calls/sms normally ? Sep 11 04:43:11 CVirus: I have no user-space that works well enough to know what problems remain in the kernel; all the images fail in one way or another. But with 2007.2, I have no WSOD, calls and SMS wake from suspend ok, audio is screwed up but it has always had volume problems on 2007.2 for me, and on battery it lasts almost 24 hours. Sep 11 04:44:03 mwester: not even FSO milestone 2 ? Sep 11 04:44:09 CVirus: the patches are best found on the openmoko git repo -- stable branch. Sep 11 04:44:14 CVirus: nope. Sep 11 04:44:24 No SMS on FSO MS2 Sep 11 04:44:38 ah Sep 11 04:44:41 Also no useful power-management by default. Sep 11 04:44:45 no incoming calls either Sep 11 04:44:48 last i checked Sep 11 04:45:14 mwester: your patches are glamo related for sure ? Sep 11 04:46:53 CVirus: the last set had one patch that altered the suspend/resume handling for the glamo and PMU, in the unusual case where the phone would begin suspend, but something would prevent it from suspending all the way (such as a resume event, or a driver error). Sep 11 04:47:32 should this ticket be closed then ? http://docs.openmoko.org/trac/ticket/1841 Sep 11 04:48:33 :D The badly-broken 2008.8 image uncovered the suspend/resume problem, as it triggered the GSM to do nothing but an endless stream of errors back to the host -- even as the device was trying to suspend. So that's actually a positive development out of the broken 2008.8 image! :D Sep 11 04:49:10 2008.8 is going to hell Sep 11 04:49:38 CVirus: No, I don't think we can close that ticket, there are still people reporting problems -- I'm not convinced that we have found all the things that can cause a WSOD -- that's where we need either of two things: Sep 11 04:49:41 CVirus, Why do you say that? Sep 11 04:49:50 A) Andy's time to help track it down, or Sep 11 04:50:06 B) Andy's big resume patchset to hopefully fix it once and for all. Sep 11 04:50:07 KenYoung: from what I hear .. it is crappy Sep 11 04:50:54 mwester: are you an OM dev or a volunteer ? Sep 11 04:51:02 2008.8, the original image from August 8th, was a snapshot that wouldn't have passed QA in any organization; it must have been pushed out by Om's management, as no developer nor any QA person would have let that leave the bulding. Sep 11 04:51:15 CVirus: I'm just a community member. Sep 11 04:51:20 cool Sep 11 04:51:46 * CVirus wants to learn C Sep 11 04:52:11 CVirus: I had an idea on an application I wanted to do, and got started with the GTA01 -- discovered that the fundamentals weren't even in place, and that's how I ended up working on kernel stuff. Hopefully I'll find time someday to work on my original idea. Sep 11 04:52:35 hehe Sep 11 04:52:49 good luck Sep 11 04:53:03 What is OM loading onto the Freerunners it is selling now? 2008.8? Sep 11 04:53:46 KenYoung: mine came with 2007.2 Sep 11 04:54:04 if you order from a distributor I believe they'll have 2007.2 on them Sep 11 04:54:17 prjktdtnt, Mine did too, but that was quite a while ago. Did you get yours recently? Sep 11 04:54:28 KenYoung: yesterday :) Sep 11 04:55:06 prjktdtnt, Well, that certainly answers my question! Thanks. Sep 11 04:55:18 you're welcome Sep 11 04:55:34 actually i'm so happy to finally have mine, been playing with 2008.8 update :) Sep 11 04:56:10 Anyone have any suggestions for a quality PDA-style (i.e. foldable) bluetooth keyboard? Sep 11 05:06:01 mwester, the nokia one if you have small fingers Sep 11 05:07:10 thanks - I'll go google it. I've never seen that one; the local stores only have the iGo Sep 11 05:07:42 i avoided in for my n800 and got a logitech one Sep 11 05:08:26 http://www.amadeus-oberasbach.de/product_info.php?info=p48255_Tas-WL-Logitech-diNovo-Mini-Bluetooth.html&language=de Sep 11 05:08:33 this might be nice too Sep 11 05:08:47 i had the normal size one of this Sep 11 05:10:13 Pricey, but it sure looks cool. Sep 11 05:15:56 bluetooth is always expensive Sep 11 05:16:17 general keyboard: 5€ with bluetooth: 105€ Sep 11 05:16:50 if you're spending €5 on a keyboard, you're too cheap Sep 11 05:17:01 why? Sep 11 05:17:09 and if you're spending €105 on a bt keyboard, you're being ripped off (unless it's a special portable one or the like) Sep 11 05:17:34 because splurge and get one that lasts a lot longer and feels a lot better Sep 11 05:17:42 my last 5€ keyboard died because of a heavy collision with my screen Sep 11 05:17:58 after several years Sep 11 05:17:58 i have two model m keyboards, $30 each including shipping Sep 11 05:19:09 i now have a 30€ keyboard Sep 11 05:20:06 one of the cheap one @ media markt Sep 11 05:29:19 my moko build environment is of latest version(2008.08), when im trying to build a sample helloworld package using bitbake method it is throwing error like " sqlite3.OperationalError: attempt to write a readonly database " . can anyone help me in solving this error?? Sep 11 05:38:37 is it possible to repartition/format the SD card while it is in the FR? mine won't mount in my ubuntu memory card reader Sep 11 05:40:15 sure, just install fdisk Sep 11 05:40:41 what is the /dev of the SD? mmcblk0? Sep 11 06:06:08 Is there an easy way to prevent qpe from chewing up 1/2 hour of CPU time whenever OM 2008.8 is booted? Sep 11 06:40:56 there's nothing starting with /dev/mmc now, i wonder what is going on with that SD card Sep 11 06:46:01 someone else have FSO MS3 and could not launch the messagebook ? (disabled icon) Sep 11 06:48:25 gromez: would you say FSO MS3 would work currently as a day to day use phone Sep 11 06:49:33 prjktdtnt: it looks like, it's pretty fast Sep 11 06:50:19 but yesterday i didn't have time to test it a lot Sep 11 06:51:30 gromez: i use my phone to send/receive calls, send/receive sms and manage my contacts so if it can do that I think i'll download and test it tonight Sep 11 06:54:29 prjktdtnt: maybe https://docs.openmoko.org/trac/ticket/1743 is related to your problem Sep 11 06:54:35 with sd card Sep 11 06:54:55 beni_ thanks I'll take a look, mine is the 512MB that shipped with the phone Sep 11 06:55:20 prjktdtnt: as i've said, there's just a problem with the messagebook, so i could not send any message (i don't know if i can receive) Sep 11 06:56:22 morning Sep 11 06:56:41 'lo methril Sep 11 06:57:46 gromez: ok I'll wait for now then Sep 11 06:57:53 thanks for the info :) Sep 11 07:00:24 well I'm off for now ttfn Sep 11 07:10:29 <|FiLiP|> gromez: I remeber having seen such a problem before Sep 11 07:11:07 <|FiLiP|> I think it had to do with not having any messages yet (empty sms-inbox). Maybe you can try getting a message inthere first Sep 11 07:11:10 i have created a deb package abcd.i386, and im trying to cross-compile it on Arm using qemubuilder. but when im trying to compile the package using qemubuilder im getting segmentation fault Sep 11 07:12:00 |FiLiP|: oh, i see, i'll check this this evening, thanks :) Sep 11 07:26:06 good morning Sep 11 07:48:22 so even after a few opkg update && opkg upgrade I still get signature errors for Multiverse and Om2008.8 repositories (error 404) Sep 11 07:48:30 did someone not upload the sigs? Sep 11 07:50:28 openmoko: 03graeme 07org.openmoko.dev * rf1755115d1e6 10/conf/distro/include/sane-srcrevs.inc: [sane-srcrevs] update opkg to get 302 redirect bugfixe Sep 11 07:50:28 openmoko: 03graeme 07org.openmoko.dev * rd5ff53efe99d 10/ (2 files in 2 dirs): Merge branch 'org.openmoko.dev' of /home/dp/openmoko/openmoko/ into org.openmoko.dev Sep 11 08:00:03 I see that the opkg following 302 works now, when will the resolv.conf issues be fixed so that I don't have to have the USB connected to get online with the FR (om2008.8) Sep 11 08:25:05 hi all, i guess its asked from others before: what happens with ms3? Sep 11 08:26:07 hama: ists done when its done Sep 11 08:26:17 we all wait for it Sep 11 08:26:45 beni_: but it was dl-able tonight...? Sep 11 08:27:46 hama: with comment "NOT_YET_READY" Sep 11 08:27:47 hama: yeah, images are gone Sep 11 08:28:07 i got the image.. but i suppose there was some issues with it Sep 11 08:28:18 haven't had time to test it yet Sep 11 08:28:28 uh, i see... Sep 11 08:28:37 im looking forward to test it :) Sep 11 08:28:44 hows asu recently? Sep 11 08:28:56 wasnt sure i was dreaming this, but me have a look: yes openmoko-fso-image-glibc-ipk--20080910-om-gta01.rootfs its in my home :) Sep 11 08:28:58 does it already build upon past Milestone-II code? Sep 11 08:30:08 last stable asu wored fine for me Sep 11 08:30:23 but suspend makes trouble... Sep 11 08:30:32 havent followed the last development stuff, i have fso the last weeks Sep 11 08:30:35 *worked Sep 11 08:31:40 oh... i installed the wrong kernel: openmoko-fso-image-glibc-ipk--20080910-om-gta01.rootfs - but me have gta02... but it works Sep 11 08:36:26 hama: thats not the kernel. Sep 11 08:36:31 thats the rootfs. Sep 11 08:37:25 yes, true. but its for gta01, me have 02... wonder thats running this well for bow... Sep 11 08:37:32 *now Sep 11 08:52:21 hello Sep 11 08:53:42 I have dual boot fso and debian. does both use the same kernel when dual booting? Sep 11 09:03:10 jave not at all Sep 11 09:03:32 debian has its specific set of compiled modules Sep 11 09:27:00 hello chan...!!! Sep 11 09:27:15 hello akus Sep 11 09:28:29 has anyone here tried to bring a frozen bottle of water onto a plane and try to argue that it's a solid, not a liquid? Sep 11 09:29:11 ieatlint: not I, I don't fly though Sep 11 09:29:21 *giggles* It wouldn't work over here, at any rate, because there's a fairly simple rule in Denmark, known as the "taking the piss rule" :) Sep 11 09:29:58 happily i never learnt that rule whilst visiting denmark Sep 11 09:30:04 i just got gprs working Sep 11 09:30:36 thank heaven for working instructions in the wiki Sep 11 09:30:44 here security has the "you may be right, but i can still make you miss your flight" rule Sep 11 09:30:48 now if only the services gui for it would actually work Sep 11 09:32:22 ieatlint: Hehe, sort of like the checkin counter clerk who had to take a lot of shit from some stupid person, and of course had to be all nice to that person... After leaving they were overheard saying something like "Well, he got on his flight to Paris, just a shame his luggage is on its way to Tunesia" ;) Sep 11 09:32:37 ieatlint: I suspect that there would be a tiny little bit of melted ice and therefore the bottle would be classed as a "liquid-solid mixture" which is on the list.... Sep 11 09:33:36 Tig|, oh, i'll buy some dry ice then, and keep the bottle next to it until just before they look in my bag, then pass the dry ice off to someone who isn't lfying Sep 11 09:33:43 unless the allow dry ice... which i somehow doubt Sep 11 09:34:59 or how about asking them "is my blood ok, or do i have to get rid of that liquid too?" and when they give you a dirty look and tell you it's ok, pull out a pint-bag of blood and walk through Sep 11 09:36:59 lambda: Thanks Sep 11 09:38:05 ieatlint: hmm that could be tricky, each liquid cannot be in a bottle more than 100ml and they have to fit in a transparent bag with a maximum capacity of 1L, the average body contains approx 5.6L of blood... Sep 11 09:39:54 i should get a job with the TSA Sep 11 09:40:13 i bet a could do a great job bullying people and mindlessly staring at nothing Sep 11 09:42:24 * hipitihop waves to the residents Sep 11 09:42:37 * prjktdtnt waves to hipitihop Sep 11 09:43:05 so fso m3 out yet ? Sep 11 09:43:33 hipitihop: from what i heard earlier someone has already been using it, don't know what problems exist though Sep 11 09:43:53 I use 2008.8 myself since it has what I need for everyday use Sep 11 09:44:05 hipitihop: nope Sep 11 09:44:18 Tig|: I thought it came out earlier today? Sep 11 09:44:19 prjktdtnt, what are your needs Sep 11 09:44:22 I have the page open in firefox and keep reloading it now and again Sep 11 09:44:46 there is still an unclosed bug in it Sep 11 09:44:58 hipitihop: send/receive sms, phone calls, contacts management and now that I got it working in 2008.8 I'd need GPRS data Sep 11 09:45:07 * hipitihop acknowledges he is as impatient as Tig| Sep 11 09:45:14 :) Sep 11 09:45:50 milestone 4 is due in 3 weeks :) Sep 11 09:46:06 prjktdtnt, yu running 2008.8-updated or some special blend ? Sep 11 09:46:17 hipitihop: it was out :p Sep 11 09:46:33 hipitihop: 2008.8-update with the GPRS using gui instructions Sep 11 09:46:48 the wiki page is up for it Sep 11 09:47:00 Tig|, I suspect after m3 polish should start happening quickly...at least that's the hope Sep 11 09:47:12 but no updates on the screenshots and it says it has changed a bit Sep 11 09:47:34 on FSO what works so far? Sep 11 09:47:50 gromez, "it was out" ? Sep 11 09:48:36 What is the state of the SHR build on shr.b.c ? Sep 11 09:48:37 hipitihop: kernel and rootfs was uploaded yesterday at http://downloads.openmoko.org/framework/milestone3/ Sep 11 09:48:58 prjktdtnt, phone in/out & basic sms, contacts. suspend resume seems to work but lose audio Sep 11 09:49:07 but this morning, the directory was empty Sep 11 09:49:28 must be imminent Sep 11 09:49:48 hipitihop i think i'll stick with 2008.8, i've got manual suspend working (using power button tap) and it resumes properly from that Sep 11 09:49:59 finally got the GSM buzzing for the first time but it was minimal Sep 11 09:50:10 prjktdtnt, keyboard works too, not sure if it is raster's but sure is better then 2008.8-updated Sep 11 09:50:58 hipitihop, isn't there a way to get raster's working properly on 2008.8-updated Sep 11 09:50:59 ? Sep 11 09:51:13 on 2008.8 i miss some sort of Home screen Sep 11 09:51:28 right now i'm playing around with the angstrom repo Sep 11 09:51:44 prjktdtnt, I'm sure there is just not installed by default Sep 11 09:51:58 prjktdtnt: on 2008 there is an issue with the qtopia keyboard still sometimes appearing over the illume one, there is not much they can do about it :( Sep 11 09:52:19 Tig|, qtopia keyboard always comes up in mine so far Sep 11 09:52:43 even with : echo 'export QTOPIA_NO_VIRTUAL_KEYBOARD=1' >> /etc/X11/Xsession.d/89qtopia Sep 11 09:52:44 ? Sep 11 09:52:58 prjktdtnt: sorry I meant if you were wanting to use rasters/illume keyboard Sep 11 09:53:38 I've installed illume-config but not raster's keys, I wasn't sure who it was that made the working keyboard so I hadn't done it yet Sep 11 09:53:39 gromez: ah when did they find that? last time I looked at it (probably about a week or so ago) they were still having issues with it Sep 11 09:53:50 RedFlash, not sure what you mean, but I'm not happy with the base desktop of any of the distros so far. I was hoping for something new and cool Sep 11 09:53:56 gromez: do I have to restart the FR after that or only xsession? Sep 11 09:54:23 Tig|: i took it from a mail of raster on community list Sep 11 09:54:38 http://gromez.fr/~gromez/openmoko/howto-illume-keyboard.txt Sep 11 09:54:40 oh cool :) well I stand corrected then :) Sep 11 09:54:56 is fso ms3 out again now? I still cant see it on http://downloads.openmoko.org/framework/milestone3/ Sep 11 09:56:03 it has never been out... Sep 11 09:56:17 there were random packages somewhere on the web... Sep 11 09:56:24 but no official announce ;) Sep 11 09:56:49 well .. i mean . first thing you see on om2008 are the "Program" Icons ... Sep 11 09:56:55 OdyX: somewhere? here:http://downloads.openmoko.org/framework/milestone3/ Sep 11 09:57:31 hama: I know... but it has not been "out" Sep 11 09:57:58 OdyX: well, ok. but it runs nice so far here :) Sep 11 09:58:06 not officially Sep 11 09:58:09 hama: for me too ;) Sep 11 09:58:30 i want to try too Sep 11 09:58:33 ... Sep 11 09:59:00 even if its not out out yet Sep 11 09:59:16 is it the Sep 11 09:59:31 is it the X keyboard issiue that is holding it back? Sep 11 09:59:31 and i made a big mistake yesterday: dl the wrong rootfs-file... have gta02 and dl gta01... but it wor Sep 11 09:59:36 fredrin: you can test the daily build on shr.bearstech.com Sep 11 09:59:38 k Sep 11 10:00:39 gromez: mmmmkay Sep 11 10:00:39 gromez, are you talking about fso-unstable ? Sep 11 10:01:13 hipitihop: yes, fredrin is impatient :p Sep 11 10:01:51 gromes, he's not the only one Sep 11 10:02:03 s/gromes/gromez Sep 11 10:03:10 gromez: the illume package 404's Sep 11 10:03:16 from the link you posted Sep 11 10:04:25 prjktdtnt: yes, the txt is not up-to-date :( Sep 11 10:04:50 gromez: will svnr170-r0.01 work? Sep 11 10:05:47 prjktdtnt: try and tell me :) Sep 11 10:06:42 reinstalling it since it wasn't showing up for some reason Sep 11 10:07:21 (the illume-config wrench that is) Sep 11 10:08:50 * hipitihop goes to grab some dinner Sep 11 10:09:18 ok gromez, rebooting now, lets hope it worked, i hate the qtopia keyboard Sep 11 10:12:14 hi there, I installed debian on freerunner following the instruction given at http://wiki.debian.org/DebianOnFreeRunner. The default boot is going off and on repeatedly with the openmoko logo and a bright white screen and this goes on forever. This was installed on the sdcard. any clues of how to fix this? Sep 11 10:15:03 didn't work Sep 11 10:17:10 does raster's keyboard download with illume-config or do you have to download it separately? Sep 11 10:23:49 opkg keeps erroring out when i attempt to install illume-keyboard-terminal with error code 2 Sep 11 10:25:38 gngn: did your installation completed?? Sep 11 10:26:03 damn, i forgot my usb cable at home Sep 11 10:26:08 so no FR play today. :( Sep 11 10:26:31 beni_ that's no fun Sep 11 10:27:56 no, especially because i havent recharged the device after my last power-savings tests. Sep 11 10:28:06 so i have an empty device in my pocket :/ Sep 11 10:28:35 ok, i think something around half an hour is still in the battery, but. Sep 11 10:28:37 is anyone else using angstrom repos? I just realized the upgrade i'm doing is pulling almost everything from angstrom so I was wondering how stable it is Sep 11 10:28:57 beni_: ask around, maybe someone has a cable for their portable player or disk or camera ;) Sep 11 10:29:39 also does anyone know if 2008.8 when you tap the power button if it is the manual way of suspend? it seems to work well, battery stays fairly charged, only dropped 25% in the 5 hours I was playing with it before I could bring out the laptop at work Sep 11 10:30:23 prjktdtnt: yes, it is the suspend command Sep 11 10:31:04 viq: thanks, that's what I thought but wasn't sure Sep 11 10:31:14 it seems that so long as i'm using manual suspend it works great Sep 11 10:34:53 how far is suspend currently? Sep 11 10:35:00 are there soe news a bout that issue? Sep 11 10:36:40 beni: what release? Sep 11 10:39:16 maddy: yes installation is completed Sep 11 10:40:01 Is there a way to completely remove illume keyboard? Sep 11 10:40:15 gngn: after installation, zhone image will be running on your screen Sep 11 10:40:26 looks like some key packages depends on keyboard packs Sep 11 10:40:42 maddy: i am stuck at the reboot stage Sep 11 10:41:10 gngn: ok, Sep 11 10:41:42 I also ran the script configure-uboot.sh Sep 11 10:42:08 gngn: before getting a white flash screen or after it Sep 11 10:43:24 maddy: i first get the logo screen with openmoko, then a white flash screen and then again the logo and so on Sep 11 10:43:31 gngn: it happened for me also Sep 11 10:43:46 maddy: how did you fix it? Sep 11 10:45:00 openmoko: 03charlie137 * r3b3a104f0373 10/src/server/phone/callscreen/semithemed/callscreen.cpp: [dialer] Skip mute action if the profile volume is zero on incoming call. Sep 11 10:45:11 gngn: means after adding some deb packages to source list, when we try to update it that time i got stuck Sep 11 10:45:44 gngn: i followed http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Zhone Sep 11 10:47:59 gngn: after getting logo screen for second time then is it switiching back to your original screen?? Sep 11 10:49:37 gngn: http://wiki.debian.org/DebianOnFreeRunner Sep 11 10:51:21 hama: sorry, had to do things meanwhile. i have a recently flashed FSO MS-II Sep 11 10:53:29 maddy: no it does not switch back to the screen, it goes on forever, then I use the alt key to go back to the boot menu and shutdown or boot to qtopia from the flash Sep 11 10:53:40 hi, did anyone here recently boot the Om2008.8-testing kernel from sd-card? Sep 11 10:53:47 I think there might be a bug Sep 11 10:55:21 I want a second opinion before I open a ticket Sep 11 10:56:35 gngn : then no idea Sep 11 10:57:38 poof3OoX: Do tell.. Sep 11 10:58:00 maddy: the site http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Zhone is for installing zhone on ubuntu not on freerunner, I am talking about installing debian distributiion on the freerunner. thanks any way. Sep 11 10:58:26 ok, thing is, i know for a fact that that sd-card is bootable. Sep 11 10:58:44 gngn: yaa, again i have send you onemore link Sep 11 10:58:54 but when I try, I get something about the image not being suitable for some bootm command or something. Sep 11 10:59:11 i searched the wiki, i searched the net, that error message is not there. Sep 11 10:59:32 hipitihop: seeing as you are as impatient as me you might like this : http://specto.sourceforge.net/ I have it watching for the MS3 images every 5 mins :) Sep 11 10:59:40 I'll give the complete error message in a minute Sep 11 11:00:56 it says "kernel image not suitable for bootm command" Sep 11 11:01:09 btw, i got the latest u-boot as of yesterday Sep 11 11:02:01 oh and I checked: the version on the server and the one on the card are binary identical as by md5sum Sep 11 11:02:18 i hate the qtopia keyboard Sep 11 11:03:06 whiich keyboard? Sep 11 11:03:16 So Debian on the OM works, but then it stops working AS A PHONE! Sep 11 11:03:17 lpotter: the Om2008.8 default keyboard Sep 11 11:03:25 ah ok Sep 11 11:03:33 thats not a qtopia keyboard Sep 11 11:03:43 just looks like it Sep 11 11:04:15 lpotter: acts like it too, i've used the qtopia images and the KB functions the same Sep 11 11:04:24 ...luckily I can just reboot into Qtopia but, seriously, WTF Sep 11 11:04:28 from what i've found Sep 11 11:05:02 emacsen: i thought gsm and the like had packages you could install to make them work Sep 11 11:05:02 it imitates it, but its not the same Sep 11 11:05:34 wow you cant make phone calls with debian? whoda thunk it Sep 11 11:05:37 prjktdtnt, why wouldn't they install by default/ and if they're not on by default, why does the phone register? Sep 11 11:05:57 lpotter, sorry, when I see a dialer (zhone) I assume the thing can DIAL! Sep 11 11:06:19 and then it says it's registered with t-mobile, all the more reason Sep 11 11:06:29 short question - GTA02v6, is that equal to GTA02v5 with GPS HW-fix? Sep 11 11:07:17 beni_: there's some more, look it up in the hardware section of the wiki Sep 11 11:07:24 ah havent found it Sep 11 11:07:31 is gta02v6 out yet? Sep 11 11:07:45 i mean, if i ordered mine a week ago, what am i getting? Sep 11 11:07:48 (koolu) Sep 11 11:08:17 if I knew where to find what version of the hardware i have i'd tell you what koolu ships Sep 11 11:08:24 i just received mine from them 2 days ago Sep 11 11:08:28 :) Sep 11 11:08:30 850 or 900? Sep 11 11:08:34 beni_: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/GTA02_revisions Sep 11 11:08:36 850 Sep 11 11:08:39 cause i think 900 are newer stock... Sep 11 11:09:20 ROFLMAO Sep 11 11:09:37 even better, 10 mins later my (home) phone rings from my cell phone Sep 11 11:12:41 GAH Sep 11 11:12:56 i just noticed the default fso3 ringtone Sep 11 11:12:58 GAH Sep 11 11:13:10 heh Sep 11 11:13:49 is 'out of credit' something that Qtopia should be able to detect when sending an sms? Sep 11 11:14:09 it can't be worse than FSO2, I could not work out what was going on when it first rang, I thought it had loaded an 1980s game console emulator Sep 11 11:14:12 ops Sep 11 11:14:19 TAsn: my FR from Pulster in the August shipment was v6 Sep 11 11:14:23 hmm Sep 11 11:14:38 dammit, i managed to loose my options button for the general configuration Sep 11 11:14:39 TAsn: and also seems to have a faulty wlan module :( Sep 11 11:14:50 anyone knows what executable to start in order to reconfigure? Sep 11 11:15:30 Pabs :D Sep 11 11:15:37 Qtopia stole your credit card? :P Sep 11 11:16:03 Weiss, really? Sep 11 11:16:07 so im getting v6? cool :) Sep 11 11:16:14 Dave: if only I had one to steal, it probably would Sep 11 11:16:25 anyone? Sep 11 11:16:27 Weiss, are all wlan modules faulty? or just you got a doa? Sep 11 11:16:51 TAsn: no, just me. noone else has the same problems Sep 11 11:17:02 so, well, if i have a factory-side GPS HW fix, i can safely assume to own a GTA02V6? Sep 11 11:17:20 hmm Sep 11 11:17:21 beni_: yup Sep 11 11:17:22 btw Sep 11 11:17:25 Weiss, phew ;) (sorry for you, though this mean i have a change) Sep 11 11:17:26 cool Sep 11 11:17:30 very cool indeed Sep 11 11:17:39 and if i got this fix Sep 11 11:17:45 is there a way to remove the software fix? Sep 11 11:17:47 TAsn: you don't need to worry :) - everything else works very nicely indeed (about 20 seconds to get a GPS fix, calls and SMS mostly working even when suspended, etc) Sep 11 11:17:49 (that blocks sd) Sep 11 11:17:49 anyone knows if 4.7µF instead of 5µF are enough to fix the gta 2 gps? Sep 11 11:18:02 Weiss, what distro? Sep 11 11:18:13 (we got 4.7µF here, we'd have to order 5µF Sep 11 11:18:23 brb, need to get food Sep 11 11:18:28 ronny: i would us e a 5 Sep 11 11:18:30 TAsn: software fix is configurable via sysfs, but you don't need to alter it unless you have SD card problems. i think the sw fix also saves a bit of battery.. Sep 11 11:18:34 TAsn: OM2008.8-update Sep 11 11:18:45 Weiss, cool. Sep 11 11:18:59 hm... i c. what's your battery time? Sep 11 11:19:15 :P Sep 11 11:19:23 What software fix? Sep 11 11:19:30 Dave, gps. Sep 11 11:19:33 well im off. Sep 11 11:19:34 gtg :) Sep 11 11:19:37 cya. Sep 11 11:19:39 cu Sep 11 11:19:40 Weiss, thanks. Sep 11 11:19:48 a couple of days with standby i think, never let it run down though Sep 11 11:19:55 what, the glamo fix? Sep 11 11:20:11 Dave: all the SD card drive configuration stuff Sep 11 11:20:14 Weiss, that has been fixed as well. Sep 11 11:20:30 the battery discharing problem. Sep 11 11:20:40 hmm? Sep 11 11:20:41 It now shuts off prematurely :0 Sep 11 11:20:50 So that it will be able to power up again Sep 11 11:20:54 in order to charge Sep 11 11:21:12 the deep discharge problem? i wasn't talking about that.. Sep 11 11:21:47 Hm, indeed after suspending sound doesn't work on Om2008 :( Sep 11 11:21:56 cool Sep 11 11:22:14 i just meant i hadn't yet allowed it to get discharged enough to make a proper estimate of how long it lasts (because i always want to plug it into the computer to install something, etc) Sep 11 11:22:26 heh Sep 11 11:22:48 at worst it's the same as the life i got out of the Samsung PoC that it's replaced Sep 11 11:23:02 wow Sep 11 11:23:15 that sounds dubious, since everything is better than the freerunner :p Sep 11 11:23:28 oh, you'd be surprised.... Sep 11 11:23:28 works more reliably, anyway Sep 11 11:23:37 :D Sep 11 11:23:45 that crappy, huh? :P Sep 11 11:24:18 ECRAVEN Sep 11 11:24:19 yay FSO, had to reboot to hang up a call Sep 11 11:24:22 four years old, so the battery was pretty much as dead as it could be. it'd claim 60% battery then die the instant you connected a call. REALLY annoying Sep 11 11:24:26 pabs XD Sep 11 11:24:54 Weiss, batteries are rated at around 1yr (if that) Sep 11 11:25:00 and it always had a bug where the screen would stay black after hanging up a call, about 40% of the time (sound familiar?) Sep 11 11:25:05 you should have replaced it long ago, fool Sep 11 11:25:09 hehe Sep 11 11:25:16 I wish my screen stayed black Sep 11 11:25:27 it always illuminates, blinding you when you hang up a call Sep 11 11:25:32 really uncool Sep 11 11:26:27 Then again, the vibrator on my phone is so powerful it could be used as a fucking paddle to difibrillate someone :P Sep 11 11:29:22 mmm... running mutt on OM via SSH Sep 11 11:31:01 Weiss: where did you get mutt from? Sep 11 11:31:12 :D Sep 11 11:31:19 viq: not running locally, but on another computer via SSH Sep 11 11:31:23 wiess, the best way to check your mail? :P Sep 11 11:31:27 wtf? Sep 11 11:31:31 -_- Sep 11 11:32:31 well.. it's certainly A way to check you mail... Sep 11 11:32:56 a little eye melting perhaps. i hope my eyesight stays good enough to pull it off... Sep 11 11:32:59 * Dave slaps Weiss around a bit with a large dropbear Sep 11 11:33:04 Weiss: so you're using OM to ssh to another box and run mutt there? Sep 11 11:33:09 hah Sep 11 11:33:14 viq: yep, less impressive.. Sep 11 11:33:20 viq, yeah, sounds pretty roundabout, huh :p Sep 11 11:33:44 Well, the most doubts I have about is the keyboard Sep 11 11:33:46 and you say your samsung was worse... hah! Sep 11 11:34:10 Potter, when is 4.4 coming out? Sep 11 11:34:38 Dave: Most asked question this year, and he still can't tell us ;) Sep 11 11:34:54 screw you! Sep 11 11:35:02 It's my duty to ask him every single day! Sep 11 11:35:05 Until it's done. Sep 11 11:35:11 Even if he lies (to just me) :p Sep 11 11:35:17 I'm watch you, leinir! Sep 11 11:35:22 watching Sep 11 11:35:38 *giggles* :) Sep 11 11:35:43 Dave: with DNF prolly :P Sep 11 11:36:09 im in ur freerunner, readin ur textz! Sep 11 11:36:51 hmmm ... i'm getting a segmentation fault on debian when starting ssh server ... Sep 11 11:37:00 leinir, oh, I'll give YOU something to giggle about, that's for sure... Sep 11 11:37:01 dave you likely to get more information from Harry Potter ;) Sep 11 11:37:11 zedstar, I know XD Sep 11 11:37:20 *purrs* ;) Sep 11 11:37:30 * Dave leaves dirty messages on leinir's phone Sep 11 11:37:45 RedFlash: recompile with debugging symbols and use gdb please Sep 11 11:37:58 Help lindi unravel the universe! Sep 11 11:38:04 RedFlash: or use gdb with the unmodified binary first actually Sep 11 11:43:43 Someday, I think I'd like to debug you, leinir :p Sep 11 11:47:13 Oh no, I have one new message! Sep 11 11:49:39 lindi-: ok .. will try debbung .. i was using a apt-get install binary Sep 11 11:52:10 Dave and leinir have an odd sexual tension funneled through a smartphone Sep 11 11:52:26 ☃ Sep 11 12:12:19 hi, somebody knows how many pixels the top bar on OM 2008 uses ? Sep 11 12:12:47 why were the downloads for fso3 removed? Sep 11 12:13:07 What downloads? Sep 11 12:13:14 ~seen kdean Sep 11 12:13:14 uImage + rootfs Sep 11 12:13:17 i haven't seen 'kdean', Kamping_Kaiser Sep 11 12:13:19 from? Sep 11 12:13:23 Dave: http://downloads.openmoko.org/framework/milestone3/ Sep 11 12:13:27 oh Sep 11 12:13:28 the were there yesterday Sep 11 12:13:30 that was never there? Sep 11 12:13:33 they were? Sep 11 12:13:33 sigh. :/ Sep 11 12:13:37 I thought they were empty Sep 11 12:13:42 What's up, Kamping Kaiser :D Sep 11 12:13:48 Dave, hey :D Sep 11 12:13:48 Dave: they were, yeah, I have them locally Sep 11 12:14:03 i havent seen kdean[01?] for a while, i'm wondering how hes going Sep 11 12:14:28 maybe his openmoko at him? :\ Sep 11 12:14:36 Well, hopefully not, but best of luck to them :D Sep 11 12:17:37 oh well, hopefully i'll bump into him soon. Sep 11 12:17:48 he had a bunch of projects i'd be interested in following up on Sep 11 12:24:04 apollo13, there was a kernel bug, we're currently building new images Sep 11 12:27:34 fso3 has been removed since there was a showstopper found. Sep 11 12:27:52 resume completely broken Sep 11 12:28:55 RedFlash: configurable via Illume settings, but i found crashiness when configuring... Sep 11 12:30:15 TooManyTunnels: it does not even suspend for me *g* Sep 11 12:35:57 is the showstopper bug fixed now? when can we expect fso ms3? Sep 11 12:37:23 <|FiLiP|> igor321: if i understood correctly, that bug was already fixed, but something went wrong merging different repo's (git) Sep 11 12:52:12 Does anyone if and how i can use my cigarette lighter thingy in my car to charge the freerunner? Sep 11 12:52:58 KenSentMe: i want to try my TomTom charger since it has also a mini-usb adapter attached Sep 11 12:52:59 KenSentMe: yes you can get USB chargers that go in car lighter sockets Sep 11 12:53:07 but i dont know if the voltage is okay Sep 11 12:53:31 I would think it would be if it is USB spec, if you have a multimeter handy you could check it Sep 11 12:54:15 one thing to remember is that it will only charge at the slow rate (ie like it is when connected to your computer) as the FR will not be able to negotiate with the charger to provide more power Sep 11 12:55:00 did anyone figure out the opkg signature issues with fso r3? Sep 11 12:55:23 Tig|, that's not a big problem for me. I just dont want my freerunner with navit running to be out of power when i drive out of my street Sep 11 12:56:37 fair enough :) Sep 11 12:56:46 toggles_w: probably there simply are no signatures available Sep 11 12:57:00 Tanuva: thats the issue, any way to get around it? Sep 11 12:58:02 signatures in opkg? there aren't on any of the feeds as far as I know at the moment, just ignore the error messages Sep 11 12:58:06 Tig|: as it haves a USB connector, i strongly think that it is USB spec. Sep 11 12:58:27 is there a risk to hurt the freerunner if it is providing more than 500mah? Sep 11 12:58:31 toggles_w: no, why do you need sigs so badly? Sep 11 12:58:38 beni_: that is what I would think too, have a look on the wiki / mailing lists see if anyone else has tried it Sep 11 12:58:46 kk Sep 11 12:59:12 Tanuva: maybe i don't, never used opkg before, but i figured i could update, then `opk install sdl` and it would workd but i keep getting Sep 11 12:59:16 root@om-gta02:~# opkg install sdl Sep 11 12:59:16 An error ocurred, return value: 2. Sep 11 12:59:29 toggles_w: libsdl Sep 11 12:59:42 opkg list | grep libsdl Sep 11 12:59:48 for the exact package name Sep 11 12:59:52 gromez: rock on Sep 11 12:59:55 toggles_w: the missing sigs don't stop opkg from working, as they neither do with apt/yast/whatever :) Sep 11 13:00:11 probably called libsd0 Sep 11 13:00:33 but it does not mean that it would be nice to clean up repo and fix missing sigs Sep 11 13:00:38 keyword apt: does anyone know how I may fix this: http://pastebin.ca/1199958 ? Sep 11 13:00:45 libsdl-1.2 something like that, didn't have the FR with me Sep 11 13:00:55 gromez Tanuva Tig| - Thanks people! Sep 11 13:01:14 toggles_w: np ;) Sep 11 13:01:16 Mononoke: but that would require you to fix expired sigs etc, its a lot of work imho Sep 11 13:01:27 :) no problem :) Sep 11 13:01:43 Tanuva: someone will have to do it, sooner or later Sep 11 13:02:43 Has the freerunner some protection for overcurrent? Sep 11 13:02:52 or can i damage it if i apply to much charge? Sep 11 13:03:29 the charger is 1 amp, i would not go much more than that Sep 11 13:04:44 current is not "pushed", it's "pulled" Sep 11 13:05:11 however, too many volts on the USB port -> broken Sep 11 13:05:18 indeed Sep 11 13:06:47 * OdyX just went out with it's FR to map the streets around his place for OSM with tangogps, without any crash ;) Sep 11 13:07:28 I found an usb car charger with 5v/1a output. Would that be ok with the neo? Sep 11 13:08:07 OdyX: a colleague at work was impressed with the accuracy of my FR's GPS - i.e. that it could tell which side of the street i was on Sep 11 13:08:20 indeed Wei ! Sep 11 13:08:22 tomtom charger specs Sep 11 13:08:22 indeed Weiss ! Sep 11 13:08:23 Tech Spec's: * CE APPROVED* 5 VOLT DC* 12V/24V* Overcharge protection* Sep 11 13:08:49 Weiss: it asks the question of accuracy... I mapped while walking on the _side_ of the street ... Sep 11 13:09:22 http://vowe.net/archives/007462.html Sep 11 13:09:48 beni_: if it is _normal_ USB, it should not "hurt" the FR... Sep 11 13:09:53 OdyX: yes.. i wonder if the whole of OSM is created with a slight shift because of that. i guess they idea is that it's the average of many traces, that would go away Sep 11 13:09:57 http://www.hama.co.uk/portal/searchSelectedProduct*NO/articleId*140752/action*2563 Sep 11 13:09:58 but I can't tell if it'll charge at 500mA Sep 11 13:10:15 Weiss: hand-mapping afterwards... Sep 11 13:10:17 beni_: without USB negotiation stuff or the magic resistor, it'll only "charge" at 100mA, which isn't enough to actually charge it up Sep 11 13:12:38 Any special way to resume broken opkg upgrade ? Sep 11 13:14:56 Would the hama i mentioned be of any good? Sep 11 13:15:39 nfjymghmh--[[[lplppl Sep 11 13:15:50 sorry Sep 11 13:22:51 there seems to be something srsly broken on my mokodebian... is there a way to check if an sd card stores information correctly (if the memory isn't corrupted)? Sep 11 13:23:08 hm. could write a 3gig file to it and check the md5sums Sep 11 13:25:19 how do you find out the hardware version of a GTA02? Sep 11 13:26:03 KenSentMe: i would say yes. Sep 11 13:26:20 i think if it can power a tomtom, it can power a frerruner as well. Sep 11 13:26:26 it seems when i am copying stuff over the usb bus, the bluetooth bus gets failures Sep 11 13:26:29 i think i give that a try as soon as i got a car. Sep 11 13:26:45 jonsmith1982, http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Finding_hardware_revision Sep 11 13:26:50 beni_, i ordered it. I can report later if it really works Sep 11 13:26:57 i thought those buses were completely unrelated in the hardware, but are they? Sep 11 13:27:22 Ieatmoko Sep 11 13:27:38 hey dave Sep 11 13:27:56 Where's my next bus, bitch!? :P Sep 11 13:28:00 Dave, take a look at liblate... massively changed and most of the code is documented Sep 11 13:28:03 I needed liblate last night Sep 11 13:28:07 sweet Sep 11 13:28:10 documentation!? Sep 11 13:28:30 ieatlint, thanks. Sep 11 13:28:36 yeah, in the *c files, each function has a comment preceeding it explaining its purpose, input, and output Sep 11 13:29:01 there is another push coming to it soon (won't break the api though) Sep 11 13:29:14 woohoo Sep 11 13:29:20 haha clate Sep 11 13:29:27 wow Sep 11 13:29:31 ignore clate.. Sep 11 13:29:35 more like flate :P Sep 11 13:29:47 yeah yeah Sep 11 13:29:48 i need to delete it Sep 11 13:29:51 D: Sep 11 13:29:55 but it's soooooo coooooooool Sep 11 13:30:05 well, nostalgia aside, it's a piece of crap :D Sep 11 13:30:11 though yeah, cool Sep 11 13:30:11 lol Sep 11 13:30:16 I have to create a database again Sep 11 13:30:22 or try to, anyway Sep 11 13:30:26 mkdb may not compile... i dunno, i forgot to test it when i did the massive update :P Sep 11 13:30:27 then I can interface with it Sep 11 13:30:30 oh great Sep 11 13:30:33 would be a very easy fix though Sep 11 13:30:36 fucking massive updates :D Sep 11 13:30:39 I like your style ;p Sep 11 13:30:59 my style consists of secluding myself with pizza and beer and seeing what happens Sep 11 13:31:06 It's like, fuck revisions, we just raised the version overnight! :D Sep 11 13:31:16 ieatlint, not bad eh :P Sep 11 13:31:21 sometimes, i get results by taunting the hidden room of chinese people i have to write code in exchange for food Sep 11 13:31:29 haha Sep 11 13:31:36 at least they don't chain you to your desk Sep 11 13:31:43 poor chinese kids Sep 11 13:31:45 :P Sep 11 13:32:08 hey, for the greater good... Sep 11 13:41:18 obviously opkg wont return back to upgrading whats left after reboot (and broken upgrade). Sep 11 13:42:04 the Brain tells me It has seen statement somewhere in wiki that said opkg Should manage to return broken upgrade. Sep 11 13:44:38 bleh, Reflash! :| Sep 11 13:45:46 strange. debian doesn't even find it's own init on the sd card anymore but fsom3/tgps reads map data from it without errors :/ Sep 11 13:56:29 hah Sep 11 13:58:01 DAVE! Sep 11 13:58:06 i flash my freerunner but when i power it stop in "Starting kernel ..." what can i do ? Sep 11 13:58:48 akus: did you also flash a kernel? Sep 11 13:59:09 yes Sep 11 13:59:44 akus: did you build the kernel yourself? Sep 11 13:59:49 I don't know if dfu-util does a checksum check, but you might try reflashing it Sep 11 14:00:04 why does nobody fix dfu-util? Sep 11 14:00:18 no feitingen Sep 11 14:00:21 it would be very great if we could make backups Sep 11 14:00:28 of the rootfs Sep 11 14:00:30 this way Sep 11 14:00:57 Tanuva :p Sep 11 14:01:06 Dave: *g* Sep 11 14:01:11 :D Sep 11 14:02:26 Are there plans for a better (i.e. more open) GPU to appear on a future OM phone? Sep 11 14:02:41 I know that the GPU as used on the GTA01 was no good because it wasnt open enough Sep 11 14:02:46 jonwil: they seem to be evaluating a samsung chip, check the ml Sep 11 14:02:58 samsung GPU or SOC? Sep 11 14:03:12 gpu I think, since they wanted to hire an opengl programmer Sep 11 14:03:45 but maybe also soc if I read correctly, but I might be wrong on that Sep 11 14:04:29 yeah, now I rembmer, I think I read about that Sep 11 14:04:47 So basically GTA03 is planned to be GTA02 minus the GPU and with EDGE and a camera, is that correct? Sep 11 14:05:05 ...and probably another graphics cip Sep 11 14:05:07 *chip Sep 11 14:05:22 so GTA03 is going to have a GPU? Sep 11 14:05:22 and I don't know anything about a camera... (I wouldn't really want it) Sep 11 14:05:32 afaik yes Sep 11 14:05:44 6410 is a SoC, see http://www.samsung.com/global/business/semiconductor/productInfo.do?fmly_id=229&partnum=S3C6410 Sep 11 14:05:51 jonwil, no Sep 11 14:05:59 ho Sep 11 14:06:09 however, it makes absolutely no practical difference whether the GPU is on the chip or a separate chip Sep 11 14:06:12 Tanuva, no gpu, same as gta01 Sep 11 14:06:21 mjr: ah Sep 11 14:06:28 so they want to do opengl on the soc? Sep 11 14:07:00 :/ Sep 11 14:07:03 jonwil, that's basically correct afaik, the original list Sep 11 14:07:09 Tanuva: what's wrong with that? Sep 11 14:07:14 Tanuva, what about opengl? Sep 11 14:07:41 SoC just means you have one chip with your CPU, I/O stuff, memory etc: System On Chip Sep 11 14:07:43 ok so then GTA04 and beyond is where they are thinking about 3G, a usable GPU etc, right? Sep 11 14:07:52 ah Sep 11 14:08:18 Weiss: nothing wrong with it, I just want to understand that thing :) Sep 11 14:08:25 How will hardware specs of GTA03 (with EDGE) compare to those of 2G iPhone? Sep 11 14:08:48 or is it an apples to oranges comparison? :) Sep 11 14:10:53 Tanuva: check the block diagram for the Samsung 6410 and the 32442 to understand :) Sep 11 14:11:54 always "Starting kernel ..." Sep 11 14:11:58 :-S Sep 11 14:12:59 akus: you're SURE you're using the right kernel, u-boot etc, and that you flashed it all (to the right partition of NAND) without problems? Sep 11 14:14:49 hmm.. zhone still doesn't care about illume's dim/suspend settings Sep 11 14:14:54 Weiss, yes Sep 11 14:15:07 i try with another image Sep 11 14:15:42 this image of qtopia : http://www.qtopia.net/modules/mydownloads/visit.php?lid=79 Sep 11 15:06:20 Hey, I've got ~ 300mb of maps for tangogps on my sdcard. Now qpe is using most of the cpu with scanning the card at startup for a long time, which makes the phone mostly unusable. I read on lists.openmoko.org, that it's possible to force qpe to scan a certain directory only. How? Sep 11 15:12:52 MS3 images are up! Sep 11 15:13:12 hipitihop: FSO MS3 images are up :) Sep 11 15:21:01 Tig|: But do they work? I heard only about troubles with them yesterday :-( Sep 11 15:21:33 wurp2|gone: someone mentioned on here that yesterdays were pulled due to a critical kernel bug the borked resuming Sep 11 15:21:46 I am flashing them now so fingers crossed :) Sep 11 15:22:06 rootfs flashing takes aaaaaaaaaaaaaages Sep 11 15:22:07 Tig|: that's great news, good luck! Sep 11 15:22:14 I always start it & walk off Sep 11 15:23:08 I had an odd thing recently I hope it was just a bug in MS2 but I could hear on the phone speaker whenever data went over the usb link Sep 11 15:23:54 and now when I am flashing I can hear a noise about once a second Sep 11 15:25:57 Tig|, maybe your phone is summoning UFO Sep 11 15:26:18 lambda: this is entirely possible, I blame the LHC :) Sep 11 15:26:43 claiming you can call alien is an extra iphone killer feature Sep 11 15:27:04 actually that was quite handy as I knew it had finished flashing as the noise stopped :) Sep 11 15:27:16 Silly people. It's the extra hidden data comms, the chips in your phone are just uploading their data on you that they have gathered to send to the government. Sep 11 15:27:16 right booting FSO M3 Sep 11 15:27:53 eek Gordon Brown will know that Remoko crashes on my Freerunner! Sep 11 15:28:00 If the GSM was working right, they would just send it directly, but since the FR doesn't work so well, it has to use your USB to spy on you. Sep 11 15:28:12 Tig|: I don't see how it could be a bug in MS2... when you're flashing you're only running uboot Sep 11 15:29:03 wurp2|working: ah good point, but it has never done if before and I have not changed uboot, still on the one it shipped with Sep 11 15:29:35 Tig|: weird... I hope your hw isn't dying Sep 11 15:29:43 mee too Sep 11 15:30:22 wurp2|working: well fired it up, one of the menu options is Tichy, ooo I wonder what that is.... well whatever it is, it crashes :( Sep 11 15:30:50 That was one of the reports from yesterday Sep 11 15:30:58 I think Tichy is a python applet framework Sep 11 15:31:27 it seems to be a bit quicker Sep 11 15:31:33 Tig|: i launched it yesterday and it fails to import the Table python module Sep 11 15:32:10 gromez: what actually is it? Sep 11 15:32:19 but i didn't find any package that match Sep 11 15:33:00 Tig|: Tichy ? Sep 11 15:33:11 is there call history in fso3 ? Sep 11 15:34:04 Hi, i try to run 2008.8 and qtopia from microsd. Always have a kernel panic (no init found / unable to mount vfs). Any idea please Sep 11 15:36:15 bighead, check your uboot setupo Sep 11 15:37:03 hello, how can i see the battery charge in command line or with the 2007.1 GUI... Sep 11 15:37:14 and I finally have my device!!! Sep 11 15:37:18 Mononoke: not that I can see Sep 11 15:37:30 GNUtoo: try acpi -V Sep 11 15:37:39 I miss the old 2007.2 apps :( Sep 11 15:37:49 I tries qtopia today, but imho it isn't that hacker friendly Sep 11 15:37:59 and yeah 2007.2 was cool.. just slow :/ Sep 11 15:38:21 My u-boot version: 1.3.2-moko12 Sep 11 15:38:34 gromez, what should I install to get the acpi program? Sep 11 15:39:24 GNUtoo: maybe it's not the right way to do it so... Sep 11 15:40:06 so what's the right way to do it? Sep 11 15:40:19 lambda, what's the setup0?? Sep 11 15:40:20 i don't remember if there is any /proc/acpi/ Sep 11 15:40:44 gromez, i think the openmoko uses apm...no? Sep 11 15:40:47 whatfor the modules-..-files? Sep 11 15:40:51 oj, ms3 Sep 11 15:41:13 GNUtoo: yes, so forget what i've said :p Sep 11 15:41:38 bighead, take a glance at the wiki Sep 11 15:42:06 i didn't have the FR with me, i could not check Sep 11 15:44:26 GNUtoo: You cat a /sys file. Searching the wiki should tell you... Sep 11 15:44:27 you have to set your bootloader with some commands like that: Sep 11 15:44:28 setenv menu_9 Boot from MicroSD(FAT+ext3): setenv bootargs \${bootargs_base} rootfstype=ext3 root=/dev/mmcblk0p2 rootdelay=5 \${mtdparts} ro\; mmcinit\; fatload mmc 1 0x32000000 \${sd_image_name}\; bootm 0x32000000 Sep 11 15:44:40 erk Sep 11 15:44:41 (worked well for me) Sep 11 15:44:55 just a minor buggette in this image... Sep 11 15:45:00 lambda, i see the wiki of openmoko.org. You say setup no setup0. Ok!! i try to change with setenv and saveenv the u-boot list, but always in a new run the changes dissapear Sep 11 15:45:00 Tig|: Does SMS work? Calling in & out, and wake from suspend on call? Sep 11 15:45:18 wurp2|working, ok thanks Sep 11 15:45:27 bighead: Are you sure that you escaped (with \) the things that need escaping? Sep 11 15:45:51 SMS does not seem to send, it recieves I think but zhone does not display the message in the list and using the option to exit zhone powers off the freerunner, not suspends, off Sep 11 15:45:53 lambda, i run correctly debian Sep 11 15:46:04 but this is not a confirmed release image Sep 11 15:46:14 with the install.sh Sep 11 15:46:19 Tig|: OK, waiting is Sep 11 15:46:40 bighead, don't you laucn the ./install uboot script at the end ? Sep 11 15:46:44 s/launch Sep 11 15:46:54 wurp2|working: seems to make and receive calls but could not test quality Sep 11 15:47:21 Tig|: I'll wait for the "official" MS3. Thanks for the info. Sep 11 15:48:11 worryingly it might be the "official one" as they have now put up the GTA01 images too Sep 11 15:48:42 lambda, the install.sh is launched from 2007.2 for installing debian Sep 11 15:48:53 right back in a bit Sep 11 15:48:55 bighead, usually data writed into NAND are persistant and don't vanish unexpectedly Sep 11 15:49:14 bighead, it doesn't matter Sep 11 15:50:26 lambda, yes saveenv end with no errors but in the reboot there are no changes Sep 11 15:50:28 wurp2|working, i don't find this file...there is still the apm command but it doesn't tell you the remaining battery while charging...so i'll disconnect it in order to see it Sep 11 15:50:55 GNUtoo: I don't think you can see remaining life while charging Sep 11 15:51:18 GNUtoo: http://tehinterweb.com/freerunner/batmon/ could be a solution Sep 11 15:51:19 debian run ok, 2008.8 and qtopia say kernel panic. Why?? Sep 11 15:51:20 wurp2|working, oops...deconnecting it also deconnects ssh...i'll change keyboard first Sep 11 15:52:03 gromez, ok i'll try it...thanks Sep 11 15:52:24 bighead: are you using same kernel? Sep 11 15:52:32 GNUtoo: check the first lines of batmon.py, there are some /sys/devices/ Sep 11 15:52:54 gromez, ok thanks...i had the intention of reading it before launching it... Sep 11 15:53:00 eheh Sep 11 15:53:59 lambda, i use the kernel distributed with the tar.gz Sep 11 15:55:37 lambda, in the 2008.8 i use the kernel distributed with the tar.gz of 2008.8 Sep 11 15:56:55 did you check your rootfs? Sep 11 15:57:32 ok!! thx 4 help me. i need to disconnect. see you Sep 11 15:58:02 he didn't extract the file system Sep 11 15:58:39 and complain about dysfonctionment Sep 11 16:10:02 what should i search for for alsa volume control Sep 11 16:10:11 i've seen it before on the wiki, but i don't remember where Sep 11 16:10:36 what about alsamixer? Sep 11 16:16:50 FSO3 broke the GPS :( Sep 11 16:18:52 someone know why I can ssh on usb but not on wifi? Sep 11 16:19:23 alx___: because it's set up that way by default Sep 11 16:19:24 donomo: no, you need to edit /etc/default/gpsd Sep 11 16:19:46 donomo: although I don't see gps data on zhone, too, but tgps/navit works Sep 11 16:19:50 Weiss: how can i set ssh up on wifi too? Sep 11 16:19:52 alx___: there was a post about that very recently on OM-Community IIRC. you can change the configuration, but obviously you need to be VERY careful about security Sep 11 16:20:28 sure, without passwd, I havn't seen a tutorial to manage the ssh keys yet... Sep 11 16:23:32 hmm :( Sep 11 16:23:40 Im sort of starting to regret buying a FR. Sep 11 16:23:49 flexd: ? :( Sep 11 16:23:52 * Tanuva never did Sep 11 16:23:56 It's just lying there on my desk, i dont have much time (or i dont make much time) to use it :s Sep 11 16:24:11 hello, I used 2007.1...with sd card in then I used a recent FSO from bearstech repository...and i've a sd-card corruption...is it the same problem than the partition table problem...dmesg logs includes things such as: mmcblk0: error -84 sending read/write command or glamo-mci glamo-mci.0: Error after cmd: 0x20 Sep 11 16:24:37 my SD card is a 4GB MMBGR04GUACY-NA Sep 11 16:24:44 The software isnt ready for using it each day (as far as im concerned), and i just dont have time to develop anything on it like i planned to :/ Sep 11 16:25:13 noone i've shown my FR to so far hasn't been impressed, including some friends who were getting ready to have a good laugh at my "OpenBrick" Sep 11 16:25:38 it's a nice device, im not saying its not Sep 11 16:25:53 my girlfriend doesnt understand why I spent 300€ on a phone that cant actually do calls *g* Sep 11 16:25:54 flexd: shame... but i suspect at the rate things are moving at the moment you won't have long to wait until it's more ready... Sep 11 16:25:55 Weiss: its software stack not even considered stable, so how do you expect any impression Sep 11 16:26:13 im just saying i'd probably be better off with a simple flip flop phone that just dials atm :p Sep 11 16:26:19 ronny: you might think that, but nevertheless there is an impression.. Sep 11 16:26:21 however i just switched to fdo3 as my main phone Sep 11 16:26:24 and all apps in the bearstech FSO segfaults but the physics app Sep 11 16:26:35 eh fso Sep 11 16:26:42 ronny: maybe you didn't read what i wrote.. noone HASN'T been impressed.. Sep 11 16:26:50 Weiss: oh Sep 11 16:26:59 Tanuva: i'm making and recieving calls just fine :) Sep 11 16:27:17 hmm, im unhappy with the battery Sep 11 16:27:26 Weiss: I tried once or twice, but it's not reliable enough and voice quality is baad :) Sep 11 16:27:30 a few hiccups occasionally perhaps, but i had worse hiccups with my last phone Sep 11 16:27:47 and the neo often drops the call while switching gsm cells I think Sep 11 16:27:49 Tanuva: calls are pretty good with fso3 Sep 11 16:27:56 hmm Sep 11 16:28:16 me too Sep 11 16:28:17 ronny, fso3 is out? Sep 11 16:28:34 GNUtoo: its not announced yet, but the images are up Sep 11 16:28:42 ronny, where are they? Sep 11 16:29:12 GNUtoo: just go where milestone 2 is, and replace the 2 with a 3 Sep 11 16:30:50 ronny, ok thanks Sep 11 16:31:28 rnow i just have to figure why intrepid is refusing to fix my usb0 Sep 11 16:31:41 cause i cant connect to my phone atm Sep 11 16:31:42 There still seem to be bugs in the image Sep 11 16:37:03 http://downloads.openmoko.org/framework/milestone3/ is filled again... is this the right release now? Sep 11 16:38:08 ahoi Sep 11 16:50:25 ronny, does the new image find init? Sep 11 16:51:30 hama: I don't think it's ready yet Sep 11 16:51:37 hama: People are still reporting problems Sep 11 16:52:20 wurp2|working, ok so if it's not ready yet...what release should I use for my micro-sd card? Sep 11 16:54:51 wurp2|working: yes, i am testing now... Sep 11 16:55:40 but it looks nice and the basics seem to work till now :) Sep 11 16:56:00 so it boots? Sep 11 16:56:37 is there any way to use folders on 2008.8? i installed task-openmoko-games, now my startscreen is full of icons -.- Sep 11 16:57:47 i can create folders /home/root/.e/e/appshadow and they show up with a folder icon, but when I try to enter, it crashes Sep 11 16:57:52 +in Sep 11 17:03:39 does the 2008.8 solve the sd-card corruption problem? Sep 11 17:05:37 Hi everyone Sep 11 17:06:21 how can you use screenshot on different application on OM 2007 ? Sep 11 17:06:41 GNUtoo: don't know myself, but check the mailing lists for information on the sd_drive (etc) parameters in /sys which you can alter. people have had different results for different values.. Sep 11 17:07:38 hama: You can send & receive SMS? Sep 11 17:08:43 does somebody kn ow please Sep 11 17:09:06 how can you use screenshot on different application on OM 2007 ? Sep 11 17:09:41 i beleive it may be accessible from the command line but where and how to use Please Sep 11 17:10:00 wurp2|working: i ll try, moment plz Sep 11 17:11:26 * Failed to download http://buildhost.openmoko.org/daily-feed/armv4t/mkfs-jffs2_1.1.0-r3_armv4t.ipk, error 404 Sep 11 17:11:36 it seems there's no armv4t anymore on that host Sep 11 17:11:45 where's it gone off to? Sep 11 17:11:59 downloads.om.org I think Sep 11 17:13:06 how do I check battery level? Sep 11 17:13:29 ah found it, thx tanuva, i wish things wouldn't change every 2 seconds Sep 11 17:13:44 np *g* Sep 11 17:15:24 freesmartphone.org: 03sudharsh 07openmoko-gsoc2008 * rd9e485cd7f30 10/odeviced/ (src/plugins/power/power.vala vapi/odeviced.vapi): Sep 11 17:15:24 freesmartphone.org: sync power API with frameworkd Sep 11 17:15:24 freesmartphone.org: builds with vala-svn now Sep 11 17:17:24 wurp2|working: seding sms seems to fail... now waiting for a sms... Sep 11 17:18:20 what is this file good for: modules-2.6.24+r5+gitr1+ca19d156400f817960efe0d14680324b2ea34171-r5-om-gta02.tgz from http://downloads.openmoko.org/framework/milestone3/ Sep 11 17:19:18 hama: i sent an sms lsatnight with the broken version of ms3 without a problem Sep 11 17:20:52 hmm, seems like the new release is broken here with sms-stuff... non sms sending/receiving here with the new release Sep 11 17:21:26 mac2k: u still have the files? Sep 11 17:22:52 mac2k: me mean the kernel&uimage-files... Sep 11 17:24:08 how can you use screenshot on different application on OM 2007 ? Sep 11 17:25:30 hama: yes i still have the files Sep 11 17:25:51 mac2k: can you send them to me? Sep 11 17:27:17 how can i update qtopia ? Sep 11 17:29:15 hama: i'm uploading, this can take a few min Sep 11 17:29:58 mac2k: thanks a lot m8 :) Sep 11 17:38:12 bwahahaha Sep 11 17:38:18 It's meeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeelting Sep 11 17:39:31 sry if this sound stupid, but I just got my Freerunner and can figure out how to write slashes, which makes it seemingly impossible to set up anything, networking included Sep 11 17:39:51 "can't" that is Sep 11 17:40:43 bove: look up how to switch keyboard or -layout Sep 11 17:42:37 Weiss, ok thanks Sep 11 17:43:38 i can't find any info for 2007 Sep 11 17:44:01 bove: SwitchingKeyboards on the wiki Sep 11 17:44:12 I think there's a _ between the words Sep 11 17:44:15 bove: 'cd ..' and u can past© a slash... Sep 11 17:45:15 bove: as a quick workarround for first test... Sep 11 17:45:47 thanks Sep 11 17:46:16 Hello mister wurp Sep 11 17:46:48 Howdy Dave Sep 11 17:57:17 mickey announced fsom3 10mins ago Sep 11 18:01:37 Tanuva: Is it the same one that Tig| & hama can't send/receive smses on? Sep 11 18:03:03 wurp2|working: no, that's been fixed. I think Tig| got hold of an early release which got drawn back yesterday because of these issues. Sep 11 18:03:14 wurp2|working: why use sms? write a letter instaed! its much more romantic :P Sep 11 18:03:48 Kensan: great news, thanks Sep 11 18:04:03 Kensan: no, its the current release from: http://downloads.openmoko.org/framework/milestone3/ Sep 11 18:04:28 Anyone know if MinhHaDuong is on IRC? I'd like to thank him for posting a 2007.2 review :-) Sep 11 18:04:35 Kensan: cant send/receive sms Sep 11 18:04:56 hama: oh ok Sep 11 18:05:25 wurp2|working: I even sent 3 sms from the first image yesterday evening Sep 11 18:05:50 And ask why the latest recommended review is from 4-21 when the 7-12 image review looks good Sep 11 18:06:13 Tanuva: I thought the 2nd image had been reported worse than the 1st image for sms... Sep 11 18:06:57 I'm flashing the new one currently, cannot test yet Sep 11 18:09:02 " I'd like to thank him for posting a 2007.2 review " Sep 11 18:09:10 Where is that review please Sep 11 18:09:15 can we access it Sep 11 18:30:41 hmm... suspend/resume works, but suspending not with the powerbutton, just apm -s... Sep 11 18:30:50 and therefore it wakes from every cell change Sep 11 18:32:12 i can suspend using the powerbutton with the current ms3 image Sep 11 18:33:17 nothing happens for me, dmesg doesn't say anything... Sep 11 18:34:08 hold it for 3 seconds Sep 11 18:34:24 yay :D Sep 11 18:34:38 thats magic.. *g* Sep 11 18:34:40 anyone know of a good stand-alone charger? Forgot my fr running yesterday :( Sep 11 18:38:16 snp: Any motorola mini usb a charger should work fine Sep 11 18:39:02 wurp2|working: then why isn't the one shipped from openmoko work? I drained the battery completely... Sep 11 18:39:29 snp: It should work... Sep 11 18:39:57 snp: on the gta01 you have to remove the battery for 5-30 seconds to get the gsm to stop draining power Sep 11 18:40:01 wurp2|working: do I need to charge it for a couple of min before booting or should it work directly? Sep 11 18:40:02 Dunno about the FR Sep 11 18:40:03 gta02.. Sep 11 18:40:23 I will try it Sep 11 18:40:29 snp: I thought the FR was supposed to boot with nothing but battery power, at least on the official charger Sep 11 18:40:52 usually it's 30 seconds on mobile phones where they poll the cells Sep 11 18:41:22 maybe I'm just doing it wrong then..... Sep 11 18:41:35 snp: I always see the 30 second #, but I just pull mine for like 5 seconds, and it always charges fine after that Sep 11 18:41:47 ok Sep 11 18:41:49 thanks Sep 11 18:43:43 well it booted now, but I had to boot from NOR(AUX then power button). Sep 11 18:44:10 but will this only work with external or will it work with the usb cable from my computer as well? Sep 11 18:44:25 It should work fine either way Sep 11 18:44:30 computer running linux? Sep 11 18:44:32 good to hear Sep 11 18:44:56 mac on this laptop Sep 11 18:45:16 windows won't tell devices high speed charge is available unless you go through the device recognition sequence Sep 11 18:45:34 :( Sep 11 18:46:13 but I'm surprised, I updated u-boot, kernel, rootfs on my work Linux box to Om2008.08, everything works really good. No problems with calls, sms or anything Sep 11 18:46:35 surprised in a way that the wiki seems to get you the impression that it has a lot of issues Sep 11 18:46:52 snp: that is surprising :-) Sep 11 18:46:58 How long have you been using it? Sep 11 18:47:57 well I tried it for like a day and got around 10 calls on it and talked for a while Sep 11 18:48:02 got it earlier this week so Sep 11 18:48:10 snp probably flashed one of the recent updated 2008.8 images, not the earlier ones. The original one wouldn't even register on the GSM network. Sep 11 18:48:12 for stability/usuablity 2007.2 or 2008.8 ? Sep 11 18:48:22 mwester: I took the 2008 Sep 11 18:48:34 correction: 2008.8-update Sep 11 18:49:05 but didn't get wifi working on it even though I edited the wpa_supplicant.conf as should Sep 11 18:49:08 Pjj: straight Qtopia :-) Sep 11 18:49:13 Pjj: or fso Sep 11 18:49:21 Yeah, it's gotten a lot better. It had to, it's hard to imagine that it could have gotten worse. Sep 11 18:49:24 although dunno about fso ms3; jury is still out Sep 11 18:49:27 and it's a bit sad that you can't add a non-visible network in the UI. Sep 11 18:49:38 mwester: I've been surprised at how much worse it could get ;-) Sep 11 18:49:41 wurp2|working: fso ms3 = ? Sep 11 18:49:55 snp: freesoftware.org milestone 3 Sep 11 18:50:10 There was an announcement on the mailing list today for it Sep 11 18:50:16 ah Sep 11 18:50:27 * snp thinks he should join it Sep 11 18:50:33 ok Sep 11 18:50:52 snp: No need. I never read mine - too much crap was on there for quite a while. People will tell you here if something important is posted :-) Sep 11 18:50:54 wurp2|working: I recall how I used to criticize 2007.2 --- but it has become the standard by which we measure the other images, and to date none have really surpassed it in any significant way (although I have high hopes for FSO milestone 3, which I'm about to test) Sep 11 18:51:04 wurp2|working: ;) Sep 11 18:52:20 is there anyway to configure alsa graphically on the device with 2008.8? Sep 11 18:52:28 snp: not afaik Sep 11 18:52:38 wurp2|working: ok Sep 11 19:04:09 what seems to be FSO3, is it now really FSO3 ? Sep 11 19:06:21 its fsom3, after all Sep 11 19:07:06 then I'll try it again :) Sep 11 19:07:47 Tanuva: How's sms now? Sep 11 19:10:03 wurp2|working: hmm... I just crashed the whole phone while typing it seems... Sep 11 19:11:11 Tanuva: awesome, installing it now Sep 11 19:13:00 hello, I think i've messed up the sound...sound does work on the headphones but not anymore on the phone... Sep 11 19:13:17 as on the phone i mean that from the phone to the headphones it's ok Sep 11 19:13:43 but on the speaker of the phone i do not hear anything when the headphones are not anymore plugged in Sep 11 19:16:02 GNUtoo: it sounds as if the alsa configuration is not getting changed properly Sep 11 19:16:23 wurp2|working, yes...and I already rebooted...mabe i should flash the device... Sep 11 19:16:45 GNUtoo: You can make the phone part work by 'alsactrl restore -f /some/path/gsmhandset.state' Sep 11 19:17:02 But then headphones won't work until you manually change it :-) Sep 11 19:18:37 wurp2|working, ok thanks I found the file Sep 11 19:21:38 GNUtoo: you're welcome Sep 11 19:21:57 i think i will reflash because it doesn't work... Sep 11 19:22:04 I hope it's not hardware Sep 11 19:22:26 I doubt that it is Sep 11 19:22:33 I've never heard of someone having such a problem w/ hw Sep 11 19:25:22 wurp2|working: a testsms arrived successfully, although zhone has ~1sec delay on all actions... the first m3 upload was much more responsive imho Sep 11 19:25:36 Tanuva: :-( Sep 11 19:28:48 wurp2|working: but thats only zhone as it seems, typing paths in tgps is as good as always Sep 11 19:35:01 hi guys Sep 11 19:35:08 i have a 'sh: libgsmd-tool: not found' Sep 11 19:35:31 wurp2|working: hm, do you also have all these "my-distribution" feeds in the opkg repositories? Sep 11 19:35:32 and don't find any packages providing this library Sep 11 19:35:45 this practice's really annoying, always having to update repo urls manually >.< Sep 11 19:39:59 lambda: That tool only exists on the (obsolete) 2007.2 image. Sep 11 19:40:37 Tanuva: I do not Sep 11 19:40:42 okay thanks Sep 11 19:40:54 lambda: What image are you using? Sep 11 19:40:59 fsoMS3 Sep 11 19:41:06 There is a similar tool for fso Sep 11 19:41:20 mickeyterm? mterm? something like that Sep 11 19:41:32 i try to import SIM contact Sep 11 19:41:40 with the addContact.py script Sep 11 19:41:51 lambda: Oh, that won't work on FSO anyway Sep 11 19:41:52 sh: libgsmd-tool: not found Sep 11 19:41:58 OK ;-) Sep 11 19:42:01 Because we don't have an interface to the FSO address book Sep 11 19:42:13 It could be adapted... Sep 11 19:43:20 can i nevertheless use my contact file as a plain text for further copy/paste use Sep 11 19:43:39 or just reading the content Sep 11 19:44:11 lambda: Yeah, if you write a simple script to submit the contact display AT command repeatedly Sep 11 19:44:42 pretty hard for a hobbyist XD Sep 11 19:49:15 lambda: If you can figure out what tool to use to submit the AT commands, you can see the AT cmd in the addContact.py script, and then write a shell script to do the actual commands Sep 11 19:50:24 something like "for a in 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9; do for b in 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9; do echo "ATBLAH$a$b" | libgsmd-tool; done; done > contacts.txt" Sep 11 19:50:45 what Sep 11 19:50:54 ok Sep 11 19:50:57 for a in `seq 0 9`; Sep 11 19:51:06 or Sep 11 19:51:18 for n in `seq -w 0 99`; do blaha Sep 11 19:51:27 where ATBLAH is the command to tell the gsm to display sim entry # $a$b Sep 11 19:51:35 or just for a in {0..99}; do blabla; done Sep 11 19:51:57 zash: thx, I was sure there was a command to do that, but I didn't know what it was, and looking it up woulda taken longer than writing the script Sep 11 19:52:17 aha, {0..99} Sep 11 19:52:26 * zash learned something new Sep 11 19:52:29 wtf does the {} thing do? Is it shorthand for seq, as . is shorthand for src? Sep 11 19:52:32 great :) Sep 11 19:52:40 wurp2|working: seems that way Sep 11 19:53:02 but, if one needs it to be 01 instead of 1 seq -w would be better Sep 11 19:53:02 It's built in to the shell (bash, zsh..) Sep 11 19:53:26 {00..99} doesn't work? Sep 11 19:53:39 Ah, not in bash. Sep 11 19:53:40 str4nd: nope Sep 11 19:53:47 what else is there? Sep 11 19:54:27 wurp2|working: does that work the same way as expansion Sep 11 19:54:49 eg echo bla{0..4} Sep 11 19:54:59 oh, it did Sep 11 19:55:01 coul Sep 11 19:55:32 str4nd: yeah, seq is much more portable. Sep 11 19:55:46 (but I'd use {..} when writing code for myself) Sep 11 19:55:53 hi guys Sep 11 19:56:08 you can also echo {a-f} Sep 11 19:56:15 is there something like opie-notes for fso ? Sep 11 19:56:28 cjb: no, {a..f} worked thou Sep 11 19:56:41 but {aa..ff} doesn't Sep 11 19:56:47 :( Sep 11 19:56:52 weird Sep 11 19:57:12 hm, {a..z}{a..z} maybe Sep 11 19:57:57 yep Sep 11 19:58:07 wurp2|working: But you can do {a..f}{a..f} Sep 11 19:58:08 yep Sep 11 19:58:26 Yeah, I didn't try {a..z}{a..z} Sep 11 19:58:32 (note to self: read the messages) Sep 11 19:58:36 but, {0..f} doesnt work :( Sep 11 20:01:04 btw, to get 00-99, {0..9}{0..9} works, of course Sep 11 20:01:22 sound is working again...on ASU...i was frighten that the 3.5mm->2.5mm cable i bought today damaged the unit but it didn't Sep 11 20:01:35 Yay! Sep 11 20:01:39 seq -w 0 99 vs {0..9}{0..9} Sep 11 20:01:41 i made cat /dev/urandom > /dev/dsp Sep 11 20:01:50 Do you get good sound from your cable? Sep 11 20:02:00 I got the wrong kind of adapter, so I get mono :-( Sep 11 20:02:01 very bad...it's a bad cable Sep 11 20:02:23 i have to move it and push it till the end in order to get correct sound Sep 11 20:02:27 zash: `seq -w 0 99` vs {0..9}{0..9} Sep 11 20:02:31 :D Sep 11 20:02:36 GNUtoo: You may have the wrong kind too Sep 11 20:02:39 which is harder to type? Sep 11 20:03:07 hard to say Sep 11 20:03:17 wurp2|working, ok but it's written stereo on the box... Sep 11 20:03:21 I prefer the {} syntax, I think... Sep 11 20:03:27 s/it's/there is Sep 11 20:03:31 GNUtoo: There are two different 2.5 mm wirings Sep 11 20:03:48 One is motorola standard, I think, and one nokia Sep 11 20:03:57 wurp2|working, i've got the motorolla Sep 11 20:03:58 wurp2|working: but for like 000..999 seq would be simpler Sep 11 20:03:59 I don't remember which one the neo uses :-( Sep 11 20:04:10 zash: true Sep 11 20:04:10 wurp2|working, neo uses the motorolla Sep 11 20:05:10 * zash thinks the nokia plug is stupid Sep 11 20:06:50 the motorola way makes more sense Sep 11 20:07:11 and apple's is the crappiest Sep 11 20:17:53 hi I was just wondering if the next generation neo phone is expected any time soon or is it "safe" to order a freerunner? Sep 11 20:18:34 Seadog, thinking the same as you, i ordered mine a month ago ;) Sep 11 20:19:46 * Weiss same as TAsn Sep 11 20:20:06 i wouldn't hold out much hope for a new model any time soon, given past track record.. Sep 11 20:21:49 At least 6 months IMO. Sep 11 20:22:01 SpeedEvil, i think a lot more than 6 months. Sep 11 20:22:09 Yeah. Sep 11 20:22:19 that's good then Sep 11 20:22:25 Not for me Sep 11 20:22:32 I'm not buying another neo until the next model Sep 11 20:22:43 wurp2|working, why is that? Sep 11 20:22:44 But I agree, 6 months would be the absolute minimum Sep 11 20:23:14 TAsn: 'cause I want a cam with it, and the only thing I really care about in FR is the accelerometers Sep 11 20:23:48 fr has them ;0 and just buy a spy cam and connect via usb ;0 Sep 11 20:24:28 Actually, if someone gets a nice mini cam going on the FR that would probably entice me to buy one Sep 11 20:25:12 for a real fso3 release, it shows much the same Emlightenment crashes as the 'release' I had yesterday... Sep 11 20:26:10 seems to be triggered by registering to the GSM network... Sep 11 20:26:13 wurp2|working: you have a Neo1973? Sep 11 20:28:23 GTA01 support (GL Hammerhead) Sep 11 20:29:25 who has fso III running at the moment? Sep 11 20:29:47 So, how has the milestone3 release been received so far? Sep 11 20:35:29 Weiss: yeah Sep 11 20:35:56 The new neo hw looks like it's going to have UTMS or some other 3g, too Sep 11 20:36:19 I see people still talking about bugs in FSO MS3 :-( Sep 11 20:36:37 slow response, occasional crash Sep 11 20:36:41 there is no milestone 3 for now, no ? Sep 11 20:37:04 Hmm. Do they have the bluetooth modules in the kernel now? Sep 11 20:37:33 OdyX: It's been announced... Sep 11 20:38:33 wurp2|working: where ? Sep 11 20:38:54 http://downloads.openmoko.org/framework/milestone3/NOT_YET_ANNOUNCED .... Sep 11 20:40:15 OdyX: Are you on the devel mailing list? Sep 11 20:40:36 nope Sep 11 20:40:38 ;) Sep 11 20:41:05 Hrm, from the announcement: Grab a uImage and a .jffs2 for your device from Sep 11 20:41:05 http://downloads.openmoko.org/framework/milestone3/ when it's ready Sep 11 20:42:21 * OdyX is already grabbing the jffs2 on his FR and had already yesterday :P Sep 11 20:43:31 hows everyone's power on fsom3? my phone seems to chew the batetries Sep 11 20:44:20 mwester is quiet so it must work ok Sep 11 20:44:23 The "when it's ready" part gives me pause Sep 11 20:44:48 no install? Sep 11 20:44:58 It's there Sep 11 20:44:59 heres your sign Sep 11 20:45:14 But it was there before he sent the announcement, so I dunno why he needed to say "when it's ready" Sep 11 20:46:58 OdyX: that image was deleted :P Sep 11 20:47:17 there is new one -__-; Sep 11 20:47:34 note that yesterday's image was already really good Sep 11 20:48:14 (haven't tried telephony) but for OpenStreetMap'ping, tangogps rocks ! Sep 11 20:50:06 OdyX: note it werent ;] Sep 11 20:50:16 bugs in poweroff and sms ;] Sep 11 20:51:55 someone know how to ssh on wifi? Sep 11 20:52:24 at least how to activate it, I'll try to secure it then use rsa keys Sep 11 20:53:56 alx___: Once you have a connection working, you ssh just like you do with any other network connection... Sep 11 20:54:27 wurp2|working: someone told me it was desactivated on wifi for security purpose (no passwd on root) Sep 11 20:54:50 What options do you usually use with mkfs.jffs2 ? I think that letting them to default causes some problems on the boot Sep 11 20:55:08 wurp2|working: oups, sorry, i'm in fantasyland :D Sep 11 20:55:26 alx___: Hmm... there should be an option in sshd that lets you choose what host ips it listens, if you're restricting it Sep 11 20:55:53 I have built 2 jffs2 filzsystems and they both print a lot of error messages about length of things end jffs2 Sep 11 20:56:27 yes, don't know, when it wasn't working I asked here (and got the "no-ssh on wifi"), and now it's working :) thanks anyway Sep 11 20:57:06 yw Sep 11 20:57:29 is there a wa to make fso go to sleep after some time ? Sep 11 20:58:14 * Seadog grumbles about VAT upping the price of the freerunner by ~£40 Sep 11 20:58:48 peter__b: sleep 300 && apcmiapm -s Sep 11 20:58:52 sorry Sep 11 20:58:57 peter__b: sleep 300 && apm -s Sep 11 20:59:36 peter__b: But for what you're really asking, I don't think so, without writing a program to listen for dbus events & reset a timer Sep 11 21:02:45 * peter__b is just wondering why the blank time from the illume configuration is working and the suspend isnt Sep 11 21:08:32 Hi, I have an enligthement taskbar at the bottom, with menu, desktop switch, in 2008.8. How to get a rid of that? Sep 11 21:08:43 and I don't have battery and other icons on the top. Sep 11 21:09:47 just wondering how much other people paid for a delivered freerunner (preferably if you bought one in the UK)? I dunno if this site is too expensive or not! Sep 11 21:10:09 Seadog, where are you trying to buy? Sep 11 21:10:20 koolu is the cheapest i found Sep 11 21:10:24 truebox.co.uk Sep 11 21:10:32 Seadog, it's a bit pricy there Sep 11 21:10:35 though you get Sep 11 21:10:36 the point I got suspicious was when they added VAT to delivery >_> Sep 11 21:10:38 2 yrs warrenty Sep 11 21:12:05 qpe process takes large amount of my CPU, 70-80%. any ideas? Sep 11 21:12:19 well, I should reflash probably. Sep 11 21:12:32 TAsn: meh I'd rather have more money than a warranty Sep 11 21:12:55 :) Sep 11 21:13:01 i liked koolu Sep 11 21:13:07 i ordered from them and they are cool. Sep 11 21:13:29 I want the world version right? Sep 11 21:13:50 that's what i got. Sep 11 21:13:55 *will have Sep 11 21:14:07 a friend of mine already got his. Sep 11 21:14:13 mine is due to arrive soon Sep 11 21:14:26 since i shipped it to my uncle which will bring it with him Sep 11 21:15:07 TAsn: can koolu ship to the UK :/ ? Sep 11 21:15:20 yeah. Sep 11 21:15:26 my friend shipped to the middle east Sep 11 21:15:37 hello Sep 11 21:16:07 TAsn: oh I see, they put country _after_ state, so you had to do non-linear form filling in Sep 11 21:16:38 we don't have states here Sep 11 21:16:54 i put the state the same as the country Sep 11 21:16:56 well, it wanted state/provice, so I just put england Sep 11 21:17:04 good enough. Sep 11 21:17:22 i have followed this straightforward replacing of kernel on SD for my debian: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Debian#How_to_replace_the_default_kernel_with_a_recent_openmoko_kernel and after NAND writes Bad Data CRC/Error can't get kernel image! on bootup. how do i update the crc known to the FR? Sep 11 21:17:26 actually in england it is relevant, right? Sep 11 21:17:44 i mean, UK is the country Sep 11 21:17:59 and you have northern ireland and all of those parts of it. Sep 11 21:18:04 bah, shipping costs so much Sep 11 21:18:14 TAsn: well, they're all countries too Sep 11 21:18:14 (that would be already GB ;)) Sep 11 21:18:33 Seadog, still less than truebox, isn't it? Sep 11 21:18:40 60$ shipment, right? Sep 11 21:18:40 a tenner Sep 11 21:18:47 $70 Sep 11 21:18:52 reasonable Sep 11 21:19:16 I may as well pay the extra tenner to get it way quicker and with the 2 year warranty Sep 11 21:19:35 Seadog, good enough. Sep 11 21:24:54 Does dri/opengl work on any x server on the fr yet? Sep 11 21:25:26 Or will it ever, Isn't there something wrong with the 3d or something, I thought I heard that somewhere. Sep 11 21:26:57 i totally crashed my NAND u-boot, someone have a default u-boot_env backup ? Sep 11 21:28:20 carrots: someone with access to the documentation og the gfx chip would need to write drivers. Sep 11 21:29:05 Kensan, ahh, so it will be possible I guess at some point. Sep 11 21:30:05 I just remembered hearing something in this channel that the gfx chip had something wrong with it and it would never be able to do 3d correctly. Sep 11 21:40:11 hey, how do i check which moko ahrdware i have? gta2v4 or gta2v5, etc... ? Sep 11 21:40:17 hardware* Sep 11 21:40:28 F4t: cat /proc/cpuinfo Sep 11 21:45:14 my GPS (using zhone/debian, tango/agpsui, fso-gpsd, today's Om kernel and /lib/modules) does not detect any sattelites (0/0), but updates "GPS Time" from time to time, and nothing more.. where should i start from? thanks! Sep 11 21:45:42 edistar, GTA02 revision 0360, what does it mean? Sep 11 21:46:05 F4t: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/GTA02_revisions Sep 11 21:46:13 how long did you wait ? Sep 11 21:46:19 outdoor ? Sep 11 21:46:24 yes Sep 11 21:46:37 ohh gta02v6 thanks... Sep 11 21:47:01 already the second day the same : no sattelites ever detected, outdoors, waited for about ~10 minutes and waiting on.. Sep 11 21:47:28 strange Sep 11 21:47:39 my FR's Date Code is 20080725, there is already a capacitor between 3rd and 4th SD reader's leg (got shipped like that), no SIM, debian running from SD (of course) Sep 11 21:47:46 did agpsui tell you something about satellites in range ? Sep 11 21:47:57 (the bar graph thing) Sep 11 21:48:01 yes Sep 11 21:48:10 so it means during a GPS Time update it had had something Sep 11 21:48:12 but then lost again Sep 11 21:48:56 strange Sep 11 21:49:06 now another 10 minutes passed -- still the same GPS Time stamp that of 10 before Sep 11 21:49:09 you tried with an other image like 2008.8 ? Sep 11 21:49:10 yea, you tell me :) Sep 11 21:49:16 no :$ Sep 11 21:49:17 :) Sep 11 21:49:28 this's where i should start from looks like... Sep 11 21:49:46 * peter-b hasnt tried debian yet Sep 11 21:50:09 but debian here plays least role, as of kernel and /lib/modules are of today's 0m2008.8_update Sep 11 21:50:50 so basically there are no debianish things 'intervening' in between gsp-client--fso-gpsd--kernel-module--gsp-hardware Sep 11 21:51:26 s/gsp/gps/g ;) Sep 11 21:52:09 wooooooooooooooo Sep 11 21:58:33 GAME Sep 11 21:59:53 oups... I was linking /dev/rtc and /dev/misc/rtc, and I did it the wrong side :( any way to retrieve /dev/rtv? Sep 11 22:00:00 just a reboot? Sep 11 22:00:14 or copy of rtc0 ? Sep 11 22:00:30 I'm not sure ow /dev works... Sep 11 22:04:19 Dave: which GAME Sep 11 22:04:37 rafa: duke nukem! Sep 11 22:05:01 alx___: reboot should be ok Sep 11 22:05:09 ah... great! ;-) I am now working in quake 2 so maybe we can more nice news Sep 11 22:05:13 thanks edistar Sep 11 22:05:24 http://linux.derkeiler.com/Newsgroups/comp.os.linux.setup/2006-04/msg00443.html would work too? Sep 11 22:05:47 edistar: the problem with quake2 is that it is too slow :( .. I will see that I can do Sep 11 22:18:31 yay, ordered iit Sep 11 22:19:29 hello Sep 11 22:19:37 i want to flash fso on a freerunner Sep 11 22:19:47 go for it! Sep 11 22:19:53 are these files the right one? Sep 11 22:19:54 openmoko-fso-image-glibc-ipk--20080911-om-gta02.rootfs.jffs2.summary Sep 11 22:19:54 and Sep 11 22:19:57 http://downloads.openmoko.org/framework/milestone3/uImage-2.6.24+r5+gitr1+ca19d156400f817960efe0d14680324b2ea34171-r5-om-gta02.bin Sep 11 22:20:08 rafa: HUMILIATION! Sep 11 22:20:31 Dave: WHY??! :) Sep 11 22:20:49 because you can't handle it! Sep 11 22:22:52 Dave: I will be able soon ... maybe :P Sep 11 22:23:22 bitches Sep 11 22:24:01 oh yeah, did I mention? Om2008 blows chunks Sep 11 22:27:21 i want this kbd: http://scap.linuxtogo.org/files/6d4aebe4618fd531ab18c049158d780f.png Sep 11 22:27:38 on fso Sep 11 22:27:52 that looks tiny Sep 11 22:28:06 Chocky Sep 11 22:28:07 sure your fingers aren't too fat for that? Sep 11 22:28:10 yeah it does Sep 11 22:28:17 mine are Sep 11 22:28:18 raster's keyboard is win Sep 11 22:28:21 haha Sep 11 22:28:27 fatty :p Sep 11 22:28:39 Dave: which keyboard? Sep 11 22:28:41 i haven't seen raster's kbd. can you take a screenshot? Sep 11 22:28:55 the illume keyboard Sep 11 22:29:02 are there shots somewhere? Sep 11 22:29:04 it's available for 2008.8 as well Sep 11 22:29:05 YES Sep 11 22:29:06 EVERYWHERE Sep 11 22:29:14 well, i guess that's the illume kbd with a theme Sep 11 22:29:23 tango theme Sep 11 22:29:28 i made some patches to matchbox-keyboard and to libfakekey and to the kernel touchscreen driver, so matchboxkbd is working well for me now Sep 11 22:29:29 guango Sep 11 22:29:39 yes, tango Sep 11 22:29:40 good Sep 11 22:29:46 budfive, even with your large fingers? Sep 11 22:29:47 :p Sep 11 22:29:49 but i couldn't make it work on fso Sep 11 22:29:57 yep Sep 11 22:30:03 :) Sep 11 22:30:18 are you noticing that you have to push hard on the screen to make it register? Sep 11 22:30:30 i patched the kernel last night to alleviate that quite a bit Sep 11 22:30:38 Hah, so there is the status bar, the icons of terminal, the keyboard... Wait, where is the terminal where you are supposed to be typing? ;P Sep 11 22:32:16 hello again Sep 11 22:33:31 something's wrong with Om2008.8 usb networking: i cannot ping nor traceroute (commands simply halt infinitely, i have to relogin with ssh) nor anything out to the internet (i used DNS from http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/USB_Networking#Configure_Default_Neo_DNS) Sep 11 22:33:35 has anyone tried nethack on the freerunner yet? Sep 11 22:34:14 take a look at that: http://www.swypeinc.com/product.html Sep 11 22:34:31 I've been asked whether there's ADOM for it ;) Sep 11 22:35:43 viq :o Sep 11 22:44:22 ~/.~. Sep 11 22:50:09 help. Im stuck on a clean flash of 2008.8. Is it so that no terminal app is installed by default? Sep 11 22:57:15 hello Sep 11 22:57:27 where can i find a water level for my freerunner? Sep 11 23:48:58 AARRrrrggghh! Two and a half-days compiling SHR and it fails after task 5144 of 5148, :-( Sep 11 23:50:16 '.../shr_image.bb' failed Sep 11 23:50:59 how can i intalla homescreen with clock an so on on my 2008.8 image? Sep 11 23:52:42 morning Sep 11 23:53:36 Infoport: sorry, i laughed Sep 11 23:53:58 rwhitby, morning Sep 11 23:54:52 afternoon Sep 11 23:55:48 is fso m3 out ? Sep 11 23:56:01 yes Sep 11 23:56:06 hipitihop: check the ml Sep 11 23:59:20 how can i install the zhome screen of fso on my 2008.8? Sep 11 23:59:28 hello! anyone knows how to add an icon in the launcher for example to launch a python script? (om2008.8) Sep 11 23:59:40 white_gecko: you don't want to Sep 12 00:00:01 torero: make a .desktop file in /usr/share/applications/ Sep 12 00:00:07 why? Sep 12 00:00:21 white_gecko: cause 2008.8 uses qtopia/qpe and not FSO Sep 12 00:00:22 edistar: thanks Sep 12 00:00:26 so zhone would be of no use Sep 12 00:00:41 white_gecko: install the FSO image Sep 12 00:00:43 milestone 3 Sep 12 00:00:49 that has illume with zhone Sep 12 00:00:49 edistar: hm, but i want any home screen to have a bick clock Sep 12 00:01:15 white_gecko: ah, well.. best to write the app yourself Sep 12 00:01:22 hm ok Sep 12 00:01:40 or patch out all the rest in zhone ;) Sep 12 00:01:59 edistar: where should i put this than, that i have it started at startup Sep 12 00:02:36 and maybe it should replace the ==LOCKED== thing I get when pressing the AUX button Sep 12 00:04:12 good luck Sep 12 00:06:33 * raster plans to organise the "desktop" better... justa launcher is such a waste of a nice home desktop Sep 12 00:06:33 where can i find info about this? Sep 12 00:07:05 raster: do you have 2 mins? Sep 12 00:07:21 2 Sep 12 00:07:34 counting from.. now Sep 12 00:07:46 :) Sep 12 00:07:57 query :) Sep 12 00:08:33 1m Sep 12 00:10:55 When will be the GTA04 be available? (I'm not sure if there are release periods or plannings) I know if all works very fine first versions of GTA03 will be available at the end of this year... Sep 12 00:13:23 * raster giggles Sep 12 00:19:22 :o Sep 12 00:19:31 What's going on over there, mister raster? Sep 12 00:20:19 pants off Sep 12 00:33:44 rwhitby: are you there? Sep 12 00:34:09 shr.bearstech.com is building fso m3 ? Sep 12 00:34:49 mmaestri: shr.bearstech.com always builds well defined images for fso-testing and fso-unstable. Sep 12 00:35:01 whether that corresponds to fso m3 or not is another matter ;-) Sep 12 00:36:21 My impression is that FSO M3 does not have gypsy handling GPS servers (I haven't tried FSO yet) - does anyone know if that is true? Sep 12 00:36:43 oops "services", not "servers". Sep 12 00:37:41 Hello Sep 12 00:37:56 How are you tonight, Mr. Young? Sep 12 00:38:09 Just fine, Dave. Sep 12 00:39:20 i've just flashed my freerunner with a very empty om2008. is there any guidance anywhere on what packages are sensible to install? Sep 12 00:40:39 tim_abell, You could look at the stuff included in the FDOM stack (http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FDOM). Sep 12 00:41:06 perfect, nice one KenYoung Sep 12 00:42:43 is the calendar in fso-3 supposed to work? :) Sep 12 00:43:12 tim_abell, If you just flashed 2008, you might want to consider flashing the FDOM instead, since it comes with a keyboard setup hat most people prefer (I think) to the default 2008.8 one, and it has sensible gtk defaults, so that you don't get black background menus with black text, etc. Sep 12 00:43:12 added to http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Download#Developer Sep 12 00:43:46 oh right, I hadn't really come across FDOM before you mentioned it Sep 12 00:44:13 tim_abell, But you probably don't want to use the kernel pointed to on the FDOM page, because I think it has suspend problems. Sep 12 00:44:52 You can use the FDOM rootfs with a better kernel. Sep 12 00:45:19 i'd probably be keen to stick to the official build so that I can report problems more reliably Sep 12 00:47:47 what I'd really like is a wiki page with a list of om2008-testing packages, the name for opkg, description and whether it's a good idea or not to install it... Sep 12 00:48:23 then i can pick out what i fancy. at the moment it's a bit of a trial figuring out what to install, unless I've missed something (likely!) Sep 12 00:49:29 tim_abell, There have been pages like that in the past, but they tend to be abandonned and quickly become obsolete. Is there any particular type of application you are looking for? Have you browsed the gForge repository for OM projects? Sep 12 00:50:38 not really sure yet other than phone stack, keyboard etc, something like the first release of om2008 i guess. I'm a bit wary because I fubar'd the keyboard on my previous om2008 install by installing an extra package (i forget what) Sep 12 00:52:03 i found a few pages like you mention http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Software_list http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Applications_directory http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Applications Sep 12 00:53:06 and http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Available_Packages Sep 12 00:53:42 tim_abell: if you mean that illume keyboard got replaced with the default 2008.08 one on e.g. raster's image, that happens after installing anything Sep 12 00:54:01 but the illume one is restored after a x restart or reboot Sep 12 00:54:01 very odd. Sep 12 00:54:19 illume? raster? awesometastical? Sep 12 00:54:20 There have been significant efforts to clean up the wiki lately. It used to be festooned with pages listing whow received their neo1973 on what day in 2007, which applications they thought were cool, roadmaps for developing the 2007.1 stqck, etc. Sep 12 00:54:25 i'm afraid i have no idea what happened. it's been reflashed now anyway so I'm not worried about what happened Sep 12 00:54:47 lol, it will inevitably improve Sep 12 00:54:54 I <3 wikis Sep 12 00:55:10 Hey, it's still cool! Sep 12 00:55:17 Just check out the wishlist :P Sep 12 00:55:18 just keep in mind if it happens again that a reflash isn't necessary, a reboot will fix it. :) Sep 12 00:56:33 mpr, i mostly reflashed to make sure i had a totally clean install and that i didn't bother you guys with problems of my own making ;) Sep 12 00:58:00 i don't have any interesting data on it yet so it's no shakes, and I'm impressed how quick and easy it is to re-flash kernel+rootfs. that's one of the reasons i bought the phone, and I love it Sep 12 01:00:01 is there a task manager for 2008.8? Sep 12 01:00:44 task manager as in to kill processes etc not a todo list Sep 12 01:00:51 heh Sep 12 01:00:54 good clarification there :P Sep 12 01:01:02 right Sep 12 01:01:06 hence the management part Sep 12 01:01:10 not a process listing :p Sep 12 01:01:40 yes, i actually just want to kill a process but i dont want to add an icon to do it :) Sep 12 01:01:58 torero, Have you tried using the little triangle at the screen's top?" Sep 12 01:02:21 If you tap that triangle, you should get a list of running aps. Sep 12 01:02:22 KenYoung: its a python script the one i want to kill Sep 12 01:02:41 KenYoung: so it doesnt appear there Sep 12 01:03:04 is there some way to distinguish between applications and everything else (supporting libraries) in the opkg list? that would make it significantly easier to pick through Sep 12 01:03:14 torero, You can run the terminal ap, do ps ax, and kill the process. Sep 12 01:03:34 yep, i know. i just wanted to see if there was a GUI Sep 12 01:06:19 i guess ill just start doing my own GUI to start stop the process :) Sep 12 01:06:48 :D Sep 12 01:07:04 start it, stop it, flip it, flop it Sep 12 01:07:10 dance to it! woo Sep 12 01:08:46 i'm struggling with how all the software for the phone fits together. (just the packaged stuff, never mind all the external stuff that's around) Sep 12 01:09:07 i don't really know where I should go from here Sep 12 01:09:22 Dave: Buy it, use it, break it, fix it,Trash it, change it, mail, upgrade it. Sep 12 01:09:28 scour the opkg list and pick things that look right? or will I end up with a mess?! Sep 12 01:09:29 huhu Sep 12 01:09:48 Go go gadget speedevil! Sep 12 01:09:53 perhaps i'm too tired for this today. so little time Sep 12 01:10:01 tim_abell, Did you download a rootfs for 2008.8 that doesn't even have the dialer application installed? Sep 12 01:10:01 hehe Sep 12 01:10:11 that's the one! Sep 12 01:10:19 i want to be on bleeding edge Sep 12 01:10:27 but am a little out of depth for now Sep 12 01:10:38 tim_abell, Why not use the official OM rootfs that at least has basic phone functionality? Sep 12 01:10:43 i'm happy to have it break on update Sep 12 01:10:53 ick Sep 12 01:10:58 explosive Sep 12 01:11:08 tim_abell, You're going to be a very happy man. Sep 12 01:11:09 so that I can (eventually) contribute back with useful up to date feedback Sep 12 01:11:15 :-D Sep 12 01:11:26 and maybe even help with dev Sep 12 01:11:53 I work all day on software and it always frustrates me that I never quite manage to contribute code to this kind of project Sep 12 01:12:18 then you should try debian/fso etc. alternative images too Sep 12 01:12:35 helps to get perspective about what is available and what devs are working on Sep 12 01:12:39 allbeit namby pamby web / java development mostly :-) Sep 12 01:12:52 haha Sep 12 01:13:06 was ms3 replaced today? Sep 12 01:13:25 e.g. try installing debian to the sd card and then install stuff w/ apt-get Sep 12 01:13:30 Dave, it was officially released today. Sep 12 01:13:44 right but do the om links work now? Sep 12 01:13:52 someone was claiming they had been 'down' earlier Sep 12 01:13:55 i'm intrigued by the debian thing, I haven't got the gist of the objective of the java port, other than it being very cool (and I'm a great fan of debian) Sep 12 01:13:57 presumably with the REAL ones :P Sep 12 01:14:04 to be replaced by, anyway Sep 12 01:14:44 is the debian install not horribly slow? seems like a big ask of such a small thing Sep 12 01:15:13 debian runs on nslu2, which has much fewer resources than a freerunner Sep 12 01:15:15 takes less than an hour to get a working system w/ the install script Sep 12 01:16:10 mpr: how? Sep 12 01:16:33 rwhitby, freerunner's fat :p Sep 12 01:16:35 http://wiki.debian.org/DebianOnFreeRunner Sep 12 01:16:41 sounds hot Sep 12 01:16:43 mpr: ok, takes longer for me ;) Sep 12 01:16:47 FreerunnerOnDebian? Sep 12 01:17:08 I think we all know which one would be on top :p Sep 12 01:18:00 use the vfat boot partition and you won't even have to touch the uboot stuff Sep 12 01:18:44 Dave: "Freerunner for Dummies" >_> Sep 12 01:18:50 * torindel hides Sep 12 01:18:51 gosh, all very cool Sep 12 01:19:55 :D Sep 12 01:20:01 more like Sep 12 01:20:08 Freerunner for Crazies! Sep 12 01:20:16 Since clearly only an INSANE person would use this! Sep 12 01:20:19 (as a phone!) Sep 12 01:20:24 haha Sep 12 01:20:28 poor phrozen Sep 12 01:20:31 heh Sep 12 01:22:06 * tim_abell reads own messages and realises aliens have inserted words during the transition from brain to fingers. "java port"?! i meant debian. I must be tired Sep 12 01:23:15 the point of debian on fr is that you get a huge arme software repository Sep 12 01:23:42 :P Sep 12 01:23:55 you can build your own things without need to play with openembedded ;p Sep 12 01:23:55 a whole arm y Sep 12 01:24:02 debian is used on many other embedded devices too and so there's a much larger repository of software already available than in the 2008.8 opkg archives Sep 12 01:24:11 edistar: i'd prefer a leg Sep 12 01:24:47 yeah, for example compiling natively is a snap w/ debian, just apt-get gcc&libc-dev Sep 12 01:25:01 mpr: on gentoo too Sep 12 01:25:02 and not so easy w/ om images :) Sep 12 01:25:19 mpr: more like impossible with om images ;] Sep 12 01:25:28 borked compiler, borked headers Sep 12 01:26:13 mpr: you got uclibc debian? Sep 12 01:27:07 which method works to connect to a WEP wifi? im trying the default 2008.8 GUI inside setting but i dont get it to work :( it works from the command line :) Sep 12 01:27:20 openmofo Sep 12 01:27:26 I think the install script installs glibc? Sep 12 01:27:32 openmofa Sep 12 01:27:52 mpr: it does, yes Sep 12 01:27:56 :o Sep 12 01:28:56 openkoko Sep 12 01:40:43 openbogo Sep 12 01:41:01 opengogo? Sep 12 01:41:17 for posterity http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Debian#Why_use_debian Sep 12 01:41:21 openloko? Sep 12 01:41:30 :o Sep 12 01:41:34 thanks guys Sep 12 01:41:44 (gals?) Sep 12 01:42:01 no gals, right? Sep 12 01:42:03 tim_abell, Not likely. Sep 12 01:42:08 nope Sep 12 01:42:32 lol, my better half comes out in a rash when exposed to computers for more than ten minutes Sep 12 01:42:33 It would be very fun to know the gender breakdown of Freerunner purchasers. Sep 12 01:42:44 i think it'd be depressing Sep 12 01:43:03 openmoko phone stack, or qtopia phone stack? opinions? Sep 12 01:43:19 or both, for that matter Sep 12 01:44:01 There are undoubtedly females on the ML, and even here, but it's rather doubtful that they would announce that fact... think about the other stereotype that the linux geek has earned. Sep 12 01:44:07 yay, i just added a desktop file for mtpaint, and it appeared on my desktop. hurrah Sep 12 01:44:30 did fso III blow or not? Sep 12 01:44:54 indeed. i rather like the faceless form of the internet. prevents you having prejudices Sep 12 01:45:30 did they fix fsoIII? Sep 12 01:45:40 tim_abell: nice Sep 12 01:45:42 bah Sep 12 01:45:43 except if you have a female name Sep 12 01:45:54 much easier being biggotted and assuming things about everyone Sep 12 01:45:59 i'm an equal-opportunity biggot Sep 12 01:46:00 slaxxin: yes, at least the two problems that led to it being delayed. Sep 12 01:46:05 :) Sep 12 01:46:08 lol Sep 12 01:46:09 the sms? Sep 12 01:46:14 a world where you don't suffer prejudice until you reveal what gender you are is not a world without prejudice. it's just a world where you're hiding your gender. Sep 12 01:46:19 everyone gets euqal amoutns of biggotry applied :) Sep 12 01:46:19 thanks Sep 12 01:46:25 at least its fair! Sep 12 01:46:26 :) Sep 12 01:46:33 (just kidding!) Sep 12 01:46:47 it is fair in a sense Sep 12 01:46:50 * tim_abell accidentally lights blue touch paper. runs away Sep 12 01:46:57 (no, it's not) Sep 12 01:47:19 we're all boasting how awesome and unprejudiced our community is. has anyone tried considering *why* there aren't any women here? Sep 12 01:47:36 they have better things to do? Sep 12 01:47:40 sure, they have more sense Sep 12 01:47:42 * mwester notes that this channel regularly wanders off into off-topic discussions... Sep 12 01:47:44 cough Sep 12 01:47:53 I mean, I've heard figures for women programmers, women CS students as in the 70%-30% range. Why do we have <1% instead of 30%? Sep 12 01:47:53 they're more intelligent, who would ever buy a non-working phone? Sep 12 01:48:01 hehe! Sep 12 01:48:01 edistar: that might be it ;-) Sep 12 01:48:07 lol Sep 12 01:48:16 is there an #iphone channel? Sep 12 01:48:23 maybe you want to survey there Sep 12 01:48:29 my other half looks at me with loving bewilderment when i say i love my unfinished phone Sep 12 01:48:39 mwester: the topic says it, devs please don't stay here Sep 12 01:48:51 tim_abell: well, you should love her instead! Sep 12 01:48:59 Mine just thinks I'm insane. Sep 12 01:49:00 lol, goes without saying Sep 12 01:49:05 tim_abell: :P Sep 12 01:49:08 cjb: because omen- in general have no interest in software, circuits, or nerdy geeky things we are Sep 12 01:49:15 and thats not biased Sep 12 01:49:19 raster: that's demonstratably untrue. Sep 12 01:49:37 i simply can look at all females i know - and ai have a large set of female friends. the onyl one that comes close is a sysadmin Sep 12 01:49:46 and she doesnt give 2 hoots about the nerdy details - it's just a job. Sep 12 01:49:55 cjb: demonstrate then Sep 12 01:49:55 ok i just went to #iphone, no femalish nicks there :) im so relieved Sep 12 01:49:58 I guess I have cooler friends than you ;-) Sep 12 01:50:00 my better half is off to study psychology, so perhaps she'll tell us when she's done :) Sep 12 01:50:07 as statistically # of women who write software Sep 12 01:50:10 ddesign hardware Sep 12 01:50:14 particupate in oss Sep 12 01:50:15 There are lots of women in science and tech, but very few of them are really nerds. Sep 12 01:50:21 cjb: It's true. Probably has nothing to do with the sexes, but rather with the culture. Sep 12 01:50:25 or for that matter will eve have a discussion about it over coffe/beer Sep 12 01:50:31 i can say is ain incredibly minority Sep 12 01:50:40 i'd be happy to have more Sep 12 01:50:43 Tronic: well, the part of the culture where we trash women as being uninterested in being nerdy probably isn't a good start. Sep 12 01:50:47 but its nothing to do with prejudice or anything Sep 12 01:50:51 they just dont CARE Sep 12 01:50:56 a phone is a tool Sep 12 01:51:03 a device - to talk / communicate with your friends Sep 12 01:51:05 and socialise Sep 12 01:51:06 i did cyb & control at uni and none of the girls graduated on my course Sep 12 01:51:06 * mwester thinks cjb is right. Sep 12 01:51:10 who gives a crap if its open or not Sep 12 01:51:11 for various reasons Sep 12 01:51:14 they dont Sep 12 01:51:18 For example, if you look at the proportions of female students in CS or physics majors. Sep 12 01:51:35 out of the 3 that started Sep 12 01:51:35 girls have enough opportunity nowadays to be able to care if they want to Sep 12 01:51:51 indeed, i regularly try and force mine to care Sep 12 01:51:52 :) Sep 12 01:52:09 in the nicest possible way Sep 12 01:52:18 yup Sep 12 01:52:18 edistar: in a world where people presume you don't care, it's enough to say "well, they just don't want to". People do what they're encouraged to do. Sep 12 01:52:23 i dont see attitude beng the problem Sep 12 01:52:26 it just doesnt interest them Sep 12 01:52:29 it interests SOME Sep 12 01:52:30 very few Sep 12 01:52:50 If we look at a smart boy and tell him he could be a computer programmer, that's one thing; if we look at a smart girl and tell her she could be a lawyer, what's her motivation for wanting to be a programmer? Sep 12 01:52:51 cjb: i was NEVER encouraged to do computer stuff Sep 12 01:52:53 eg, i tried to set up her phone for email. man i hate all the other phones i've ever dealt with Sep 12 01:52:54 cjb: yes, but they are encouraged nowadays Sep 12 01:52:55 hell i was discouraged Sep 12 01:52:57 for years Sep 12 01:53:04 my parents wanted me to do law or medicine Sep 12 01:53:06 edistar: I'm afraid that's not actually true. Sep 12 01:53:10 its to do with what u WANT to do Sep 12 01:53:22 cjb: at my school it was, at least up to may.. I finished then ;) Sep 12 01:53:24 raster: "what you want" is a product of how society treats you. Sep 12 01:53:34 trust me Sep 12 01:53:38 its definitely isnt for me Sep 12 01:53:53 u have no idea how much crap i got teasted for being a "nerd" Sep 12 01:53:55 a "geek" Sep 12 01:53:56 at school Sep 12 01:54:09 sure, we all did. Sep 12 01:54:09 i think native geeks are a rare breed per head of population, even for men, so perhaps comparing to all women is less informative Sep 12 01:54:17 having any interest in anything but football and beer (ie interested in anything academic/intellectual - ESPECIALLY computers) Sep 12 01:54:24 * edistar teases raster because he's a nerdy geek! Sep 12 01:54:35 tim_abell: programmers aren't rare. I respect that people who program in their spare time are. Sep 12 01:54:44 if i was a product of what iw as encouraged to do i'd be a football (rugby) playing lawyer. Sep 12 01:55:02 so i utterly disagree Sep 12 01:55:15 maybe you're the famous exception Sep 12 01:55:15 i'd have been an engineer if I hadn't found an easier way to make money :) Sep 12 01:55:16 statistics demonstrate how little interest there is from females in "tech" Sep 12 01:55:39 raster: and I'm saying that we create and persist that lack of interest. Sep 12 01:55:49 thats not our problem Sep 12 01:55:56 ! Sep 12 01:56:00 we dont put a barrier of entry Sep 12 01:56:03 the door is open Sep 12 01:56:06 it's our problem if we want an inclusive environment. Sep 12 01:56:07 they choose not to walk in Sep 12 01:56:10 not our problem Sep 12 01:56:16 it is inclusive Sep 12 01:56:16 i go with the view that the culture has a relatively minor effect on who joins in Sep 12 01:56:25 in fact much MORE inclusive than most professions Sep 12 01:56:29 raster: oh. you need to read up on how merely not being obnoxious to women isn't the same as making an attractive environment for them. Sep 12 01:56:37 law and medicine have massive entry barriers Sep 12 01:56:38 cough clergy, cough Sep 12 01:56:42 socially and academically Sep 12 01:56:48 but u see lots of women there Sep 12 01:56:52 raster: and I contend that that's obviously ridiculous, because any other organization would actually manage to attract a woman occasionally. Sep 12 01:57:01 all u need is a little "get up and go" to get into tech Sep 12 01:57:03 women score just as highly as men on math and CS tests. Sep 12 01:57:04 u dont need a degree Sep 12 01:57:06 they're already in tech. Sep 12 01:57:34 they're just not here. because we're uninterested in welcoming them. Sep 12 01:57:39 and they tend to drop out early on during cs degrees Sep 12 01:57:50 cjb: so what is stopping them? becoming a geek is not a matter of being encouraged by society, once you are a techie Sep 12 01:57:58 cjb: thats crap Sep 12 01:58:08 oh dear. what have i done :s Sep 12 01:58:16 its the apology syncrome Sep 12 01:58:20 tim_abell: always the troublemaker Sep 12 01:58:22 go beat yourself up for something Sep 12 01:58:25 its Nnot your fault Sep 12 01:58:28 its not your problem Sep 12 01:58:32 this is perfectly open Sep 12 01:58:34 edistar: there's a feedback loop where a lack of role models discourages people from joining -- consider how it would feel for you to step into a room with 400 women and no men, and you get an idea of how intimidating it is. Sep 12 01:58:41 do we have some hazing/ entry ritual to join? Sep 12 01:58:44 but, we also have a tendency to act like aggressive assholes a lot of the time. Sep 12 01:58:47 hjow is this place NOT welcoming? Sep 12 01:58:57 cjb: you know how many people discourage me every day to be even slightly geeky? Sep 12 01:59:17 We need a Hello Kitty model Freerunner. Sep 12 01:59:22 KenYoung: good idea! Sep 12 01:59:23 edistar: probably not to the same extent. for example, women receive their own computer years later than men do, on average. Sep 12 01:59:28 maybe its the "extreemophile" nature of the male mind Sep 12 01:59:31 pretty hard to be a geek without a computer. Sep 12 01:59:49 i was reading somewhere about 6 months ago that men tend to have more people at the extremes Sep 12 01:59:53 ie for example extremely dumb Sep 12 01:59:56 or extremely smart Sep 12 02:00:03 so, we sit back and say they should just become geeks if they want to, and then we don't give them computers and wonder why they aren't geeks. Sep 12 02:00:04 extremely aggressive Sep 12 02:00:10 etc. etc. Sep 12 02:00:15 cjb: true, I started pretty late too, though.. never touched a pc before 2002 Sep 12 02:00:23 whereas females tend to group statistically in the middleground more Sep 12 02:00:27 raster: I would claim that society encourages men to take bigger risks with their careers. Sep 12 02:00:27 as a trend Sep 12 02:00:43 the tech world tends to be at tan extreme of involvment Sep 12 02:00:47 your life gets focused on it Sep 12 02:00:50 cjb you could be onto something there Sep 12 02:00:58 you generally need a higher level of intelligence Sep 12 02:00:59 etc. Sep 12 02:01:08 raster: you're claiming that men have a higher level of intelligence than women? Sep 12 02:01:12 so it tends to be a domain just more likely to be inhabited by males Sep 12 02:01:14 this is pretty disturbing stuff. Sep 12 02:01:17 no i am NOT Sep 12 02:01:24 then why say that? Sep 12 02:01:25 did u read? Sep 12 02:01:28 uh oh, the caps lock is out Sep 12 02:01:32 haha Sep 12 02:01:37 i was reading somewhere about 6 months ago that men tend to have more people at the extremes Sep 12 02:01:38 ie for example extremely dumb Sep 12 02:01:38 or extremely smart Sep 12 02:01:50 oh Sep 12 02:01:54 ok, I see. Sep 12 02:01:59 there tend to be MORE males at the extremes Sep 12 02:02:02 boith extremes Sep 12 02:02:05 that sounds suspicious, but okay. Sep 12 02:02:06 not more intelligent Sep 12 02:02:14 just statistically more males for example iq > 150 Sep 12 02:02:20 i follow that, but i suspect if true, that doesn't explain the enourmous difference Sep 12 02:02:21 but ALSO more males with iq < 50 Sep 12 02:02:23 than femails Sep 12 02:02:29 but thats what the studies/stats showed Sep 12 02:02:31 i certainly am not the brightest around Sep 12 02:02:43 i am NOT saying females are dumber Sep 12 02:02:46 tim_abell: yes; there's a huge danger of being willing to accept a biological explanation when a cultural one is far more likely. Sep 12 02:02:49 to use a sample of one Sep 12 02:02:50 the averages are the same Sep 12 02:02:59 just the "Bell curve" is different between males and females Sep 12 02:03:00 Men have wider normal distributions for many characteristics than women do - even things like height. Sep 12 02:03:00 for example, 30 years ago, we thought black people were less smart than white people, on average. Sep 12 02:03:03 the spread is different Sep 12 02:03:16 so, people say "hey, that's just the way it is, it's not like we did it". Sep 12 02:03:32 KenYoung: yup. Sep 12 02:03:35 this discussion will never be resolved via irc.. Sep 12 02:03:40 (missing the point that we don't educate black people nearly as well as we educate white people.) Sep 12 02:03:43 42 Sep 12 02:03:45 did i win? Sep 12 02:03:48 edistar: I think you're right, but it makes me sad. Sep 12 02:03:53 thats what i was reading - thoug this ewas more a study on metal things. Sep 12 02:04:06 It could be because women have two copies of any gene on the X chrome. It's also why men are more susseptible to many genetic diseases. Sep 12 02:04:07 cjb: but you shouldn't use social explanations when there are biological ones either :) Sep 12 02:04:30 edistar: my point's that the biological ones are much less likely. Sep 12 02:04:32 cjb: frankly, i'm tried of thew white-middle-class educated "apology" syndrom Sep 12 02:04:32 cjb: that's what education is for in the end, and scholarship finally Sep 12 02:04:41 i'm fed up with it Sep 12 02:04:58 If only we *encouraged* women to be taller. Sep 12 02:05:00 i know here in .au everyone DOES have equal access Sep 12 02:05:05 anyway, even if there are slightly more men at the edges of the curve, that doesn't explain where the slightly less women at the edges of the curve are, if they aren't here. Sep 12 02:05:06 i dont come from a rich family Sep 12 02:05:08 it's statistical. Sep 12 02:05:15 i worked my way thru uni Sep 12 02:05:25 and used govt help.funding to help me do it Sep 12 02:05:33 i dont go blaming the system Sep 12 02:05:38 or the society for not being inclusing Sep 12 02:05:42 inclusive Sep 12 02:05:51 i get up and do somethng that i want to do Sep 12 02:05:55 and do what i need to do it Sep 12 02:06:03 and stop bitching and moaning about inequality Sep 12 02:06:05 the BCS seems to be quite keen to do what's needed to even things out Sep 12 02:06:06 the qorld is unequal Sep 12 02:06:07 deal with it Sep 12 02:06:10 thats life Sep 12 02:06:25 http://www.bcs.org Sep 12 02:06:26 u have the opportunity to fight it and do what u want Sep 12 02:06:38 and again, that's exactly what we said a few decades ago about black people not being "as smart" as white people. Sep 12 02:06:59 we rushed for the biological explanation. it couldn't possibly be societal factors. Sep 12 02:07:03 eg http://www.bcs.org/server.php?show=ConWebDoc.4170 Sep 12 02:07:18 thats not my problem Sep 12 02:07:23 I mean, just because a boy gets his own computer aged 14 and a girl gets hers after she's already in college, why would that mean that there would be fewer programmers? Sep 12 02:07:35 in this country asians outperform whites academically Sep 12 02:07:37 by miles Sep 12 02:08:14 sure, that's because of self-selection. the smart asians migrated. Sep 12 02:08:16 do the whites go around going "oooh society is to blame! oooh we are so downtrodden! we need special treatment now - we need to be included and need special treatment and university places. we are so disadvantaged" Sep 12 02:08:20 bullshit Sep 12 02:08:26 um Sep 12 02:08:30 the daily mail does Sep 12 02:08:32 no we dont we go apologising for beign such bad white people Sep 12 02:08:42 "oh we are so racist. oh we are so bad" Sep 12 02:08:57 but as such the asians take all the top places - relative to their % of the population Sep 12 02:09:05 they are massively over-represented at universities Sep 12 02:09:10 ESPECAILLY the higher degrees Sep 12 02:09:11 it's very commonly researched. for an Asian family to come to the US, they travel a long way. for a Mexican family to come to the US, they go across a border. it's entirely unsurprising that one group is self-selected for people who want to work hard and be well-educated. Sep 12 02:09:17 oh, there we go, better link http://www.bcs.org/server.php?show=nav.7708 Sep 12 02:09:20 but do i complain? no. i'm happy for them to be there Sep 12 02:09:24 they get there through hard work Sep 12 02:09:52 and white peolpe come from europe to .au Sep 12 02:09:53 "pay gaps between men and women persist" that wouldn't help Sep 12 02:09:55 asians come from asia Sep 12 02:09:56 its closer Sep 12 02:09:58 so what? Sep 12 02:10:02 nice, we're on a racism/immigration topic Sep 12 02:10:06 dude. I'm not trying to say every disparity should be fixed. I'm trying to say that there are obvious ways in which we discourage women from becoming programmers. Sep 12 02:10:18 i disagree Sep 12 02:10:20 entirely Sep 12 02:10:29 they just dont care about all the techy details Sep 12 02:10:36 What's your argument against the statistic of women getting computers after they've joined college? Sep 12 02:10:37 progframming/siftware is techy Sep 12 02:10:46 they dont CARE Sep 12 02:10:48 most people go towards their own intrests Sep 12 02:10:49 Are you going to tell me that 14-18 had no effect on what your chosen career would be? Sep 12 02:10:50 cjb, society and stereotypes do, but it's not an active belief amongst programmers that women are inferior Sep 12 02:10:56 It's when I did some of the hardest work of my life. Sep 12 02:11:10 my best programming teacher was a woman from georgie (the country, heh) Sep 12 02:11:15 blah, gorgia Sep 12 02:11:18 I can't imagine what else I'd have done instead if I hadn't had a computer until college. In England, by the time you enter college you've already decided what to study! Sep 12 02:11:19 i chose what i wanted when i was a teenager Sep 12 02:11:22 heh, or something similarly spelt Sep 12 02:11:38 regardless of pressure entirely counter to what i chose Sep 12 02:11:43 cjb, that should be true everywhere Sep 12 02:11:45 cjb, Every single teenaged girl in the US has a cell phone held up to her ear for at least 18 hours a day - how many are intereseted in writing software for one? Sep 12 02:11:55 college is to study your specific field, not gen ed Sep 12 02:11:55 ieatlint: it's not really true in the US; you can declare a major after a while. Sep 12 02:12:01 ieatlint: are you in the US? Sep 12 02:12:05 cjb, yes Sep 12 02:12:12 and while you can, it's discouraged Sep 12 02:12:15 then you should know that people don't declare their majors immediately. Sep 12 02:12:18 people see it as a slacker thing Sep 12 02:12:26 cjb: in .au its the same Sep 12 02:12:28 uh, 90%+ do Sep 12 02:12:35 u go to uni and when u go.. u damn well beter knwo what u want to do Sep 12 02:12:42 raster: that's my point! Sep 12 02:12:43 straight into a specific degree Sep 12 02:12:48 http://ec.europa.eu/information_society/activities/itgirls looks like people are trying to fix it Sep 12 02:12:53 colleges are less likely to accept people who write in their essay "yeah, i dunno what i want to do.. i guess i'll figure it out after a year" Sep 12 02:12:59 why are we expecting women to choose CS if they haven't got a computer when they're deciding what to do with their life? Sep 12 02:13:00 i dont see how that makes a difference Sep 12 02:13:05 menu have influences as children Sep 12 02:13:07 so do women Sep 12 02:13:10 why are we saying it's "their problem" if they decide to do something else? Sep 12 02:13:18 and its not our fault as males Sep 12 02:13:19 cjb - they have cell phoes, which are computers. Sep 12 02:13:23 or as peoepl already here Sep 12 02:13:28 cjb, society has stereotypes that put pressure on both men and women Sep 12 02:13:35 cjb: don't know where you got those statistics? Sep 12 02:13:36 perhaps we need to model ourselves on other industries that used to have a bad sex inequality problem and follow their lead Sep 12 02:13:42 its their problem if they decide not to join us Sep 12 02:13:43 edistar: the FLOSSPOLS study, it's googleable. Sep 12 02:13:48 cjb: okey.. Sep 12 02:13:49 if they dont feel they are missing out on anything Sep 12 02:13:53 no harm, no foul Sep 12 02:14:10 raster: I think that's logically and ethically ridiculous, but okay. Sep 12 02:14:10 frankly, most programmers would love to have more women doing it Sep 12 02:14:17 cjb: at least the people around here (germany) have pcs.. every girl has one at least 4 to 5 years before leaving school Sep 12 02:14:29 i'd love to have a girlfriend i could program with, or whom could even understand half of what i say Sep 12 02:14:30 every would be exaggerated, but the vast majority Sep 12 02:14:36 cjb: the whole idea is rediculous Sep 12 02:14:38 if they care Sep 12 02:14:39 i guess anybody would like having more woman doing it ;) Sep 12 02:14:40 they can join Sep 12 02:14:54 torero: depends on the looks ;) Sep 12 02:14:59 just joking Sep 12 02:15:14 *why* are you expecting women who are being withheld computers as children to care about computers? the *reason* you cared about them is that you had one during important years of your teens. Sep 12 02:15:38 withheld? Sep 12 02:15:43 bbabahaabhhwbhahbbahabhbabhwbahaBhababhahbahb Sep 12 02:15:45 cjb: fact is, women who are not withheld don't care either Sep 12 02:15:52 sure. parents give computers to boys and don't give them to girls. Sep 12 02:15:53 cjb, western society as a whole tends to prefer looks over brains when it comes to women, and the perception is (if not the reality) that men prefer to be more competent/smarter than potential spouses... hence, women often feel pressured to not come off as too intelligent for fear of being alone Sep 12 02:16:05 man - most of the momen i know spend more time at their pcs/laptops than all the males i know.. who DONT do software Sep 12 02:16:06 edistar: similarly, we don't expose them to technical female role models. Sep 12 02:16:10 much moe Sep 12 02:16:18 ieatlint: yes, that makes a lot of sense. Sep 12 02:16:18 I know so many women working with pcs who would rather not anything about it.. while they are writing their maths phd or a physics essay Sep 12 02:16:20 i know no female "Denied" a computer ever Sep 12 02:16:25 and there are countless exceptions to that, but as whole, society is still that way Sep 12 02:16:27 they just dont carfe Sep 12 02:16:34 the pc is a way to instant-message friends Sep 12 02:16:41 email and browse social sites Sep 12 02:16:45 and read blogs Sep 12 02:16:48 compare with sales folk Sep 12 02:16:51 raster: I agree that they don't care. Unlike you, I'm willing to investigate *why* they don't care. Sep 12 02:16:57 thats the females i know mostly Sep 12 02:17:03 also no interest in the rest Sep 12 02:17:04 raster: wow. so, what you're saying is, women are superficial airheads. Sep 12 02:17:15 i know a lot of geeky women Sep 12 02:17:17 cjb: no. YOU say that Sep 12 02:17:20 i never said that Sep 12 02:17:23 i think it's a bit too easy to go on anecdotal experience of individual women's motivations Sep 12 02:17:28 and they're all far more into other sciences or literature Sep 12 02:17:36 they are more cared about human interaction that the details of software Sep 12 02:17:37 sounded like it to me. women aren't programmers because they like instant messaging and social stuff. Sep 12 02:17:38 * torero feels the channel is heating up Sep 12 02:17:42 they want to interact with peole Sep 12 02:17:47 and one of them has told me that they do feel intimidated by male computer geeks Sep 12 02:17:57 why do u think women are so heavily represented in industries invovling hoiman->human contact Sep 12 02:18:05 * edistar hands out ice cubes Sep 12 02:18:25 in part because too many of them have never had a girlfriend and have no idea how to act around the opposite sex, so they get very weird (well, ok, they're already weird... but weirder still) Sep 12 02:18:26 ieatlint: yeah. there are plenty of stories of female free software developers being harrassed or even stalked. Sep 12 02:18:36 lol Sep 12 02:18:40 * torero wonders if its a good time to ask how to get the wifi working... Sep 12 02:18:44 torero: hee hee Sep 12 02:18:54 ieatlint: well, that's exaggerating a bit Sep 12 02:18:55 ieatlint: excuses. i know many males who feel indimidated by women. :) Sep 12 02:18:56 well, the issue i've seen is them being left alone as the guys are too afraid to say more than "hi" Sep 12 02:19:06 ieatlint: unfortunately there are both extremes. Sep 12 02:19:11 torero: hide! Sep 12 02:19:13 * tim_abell thinks he just accidentally discovered how trolling works Sep 12 02:19:27 * torero ducks! Sep 12 02:19:28 edistar, which part? Sep 12 02:19:33 cjb: harassment and stalking is just not on. i agree Sep 12 02:19:33 the not having a girlfriend part? Sep 12 02:19:45 cjb: anyone doing that is just wrong. Sep 12 02:20:02 because that was expressed to me with people in the 16-22 range, and it was true amongst that age group Sep 12 02:20:03 maybe its just the "nerds" i know are normal Sep 12 02:20:08 ieatlint: 'many of them haven't had a girlfriend and can't interact with the opposite sex'.. maybe some, but not a big part Sep 12 02:20:10 they spend time at the pub drinking beer Sep 12 02:20:18 are married or have girlfriends Sep 12 02:20:26 they are well adjusted and able to socialise Sep 12 02:20:34 and i see no need to go bending over backwards or changing anything Sep 12 02:20:35 I agree Sep 12 02:20:44 individually, we seem like pretty inclusive people Sep 12 02:20:51 but our communities are not. Sep 12 02:20:53 yeah, well, once you mature more it's as much of an issue Sep 12 02:20:55 if the women arent interested - thats up to them. i'm not going to harass them inot being interested Sep 12 02:21:02 but the point is that the women are scared off early :P Sep 12 02:21:05 raster: you don't think having zero women around is a reason to change anything? Sep 12 02:21:05 im not going to whine at them or bother them Sep 12 02:21:15 either way, it's not descrimination Sep 12 02:21:24 cjb: it'll change slowly, like it did in the sciences Sep 12 02:21:29 they want to be involved - they need to have the initiative - more than happy to help - just like any other male user/nerd Sep 12 02:21:31 no different Sep 12 02:21:32 * torero is preparing for his knitting class Sep 12 02:21:43 cjb: i've given up caring Sep 12 02:21:50 raster, i think the answer isn't to whine at them, it's to figure out what we can change that affects uptake (i don't know the answers, hence the BCS links) Sep 12 02:21:52 tim_abell: you _are_ a natural talent (troll) Sep 12 02:22:03 ieatlint: there are two things that we would need to solve if we decided that we would like women to be interested in free software communities. Sep 12 02:22:07 raster, "happy to help" ... this doesn't describe me, and i'm a geek Sep 12 02:22:17 * torero wonders why there are so many old ladies in the class and just one geek Sep 12 02:22:17 edistar, i knew i had a role in life Sep 12 02:22:20 the first is the outright stalking or discrimination that comes along. that seems like it should be easy. Sep 12 02:22:29 lol Sep 12 02:22:32 not so easy Sep 12 02:22:34 the second is actually making walking into a room of 400 guys into an appealing thing. Sep 12 02:22:41 that sounds bloody hard to me. Sep 12 02:22:47 not unless you include behaviour classes as a corequisite to programming classes Sep 12 02:22:52 how's milestone3 working for people? Sep 12 02:22:56 raster: hi. is it possible to write an application such that i get different desktops in illume? Sep 12 02:23:00 and, raster can say "hey, it's not my fault it's not appealing, there is no problem here" Sep 12 02:23:18 "how not to stare impolitely and accomplish sentences in excess of 5 words that aren't about sex 101" Sep 12 02:23:19 but I try to be an inclusive kind of guy, and I have lots of hobbies and women are at least partially involved in all of the other ones Sep 12 02:23:24 if there is any gal in this channel, she will _never_ _ever_ dare to say it anymore :) Sep 12 02:23:28 and the status quo isn't good enough for me. Sep 12 02:23:29 raster, and i think that the reason for caring is not that individual women choose not to join us, but that the stats indicate that there is an overall bias, and this is undesirable Sep 12 02:23:35 edistar: lol! Sep 12 02:23:41 cjb: i tend to be a "if u want to do something - get off your arse and do it" kind fo person Sep 12 02:23:50 we know that women perform as well as men do on CS exams, in college -- that's also in the FLOSSPOLS study. but they aren't here, and the answer to why not is very complelx. Sep 12 02:23:56 i am entirely against "positive discrimination" Sep 12 02:23:58 eg Sep 12 02:24:06 raster: privileged people often are those kind of people. Sep 12 02:24:07 allocating special university places for "Blacks" Sep 12 02:24:09 or "aborigines" Sep 12 02:24:13 or "women" Sep 12 02:24:18 cjb, the feel more protected in a professional work environment perhaps Sep 12 02:24:19 equal acceess to everyone Sep 12 02:24:21 no special treatment Sep 12 02:24:25 one way OR another. Sep 12 02:24:29 if someone starts being creepy, there's more recourse for them Sep 12 02:24:39 cjb: i never was privelidged. Sep 12 02:24:43 or perhaps they actually realise that money can be made Sep 12 02:24:44 ieatlint: I think lack of role models covers an awful lot of it. If I were a women, why would I want to be here? Who would I talk to? Who would I admire? Sep 12 02:24:54 i spent most of my childhood being discriminated against for being german Sep 12 02:25:03 raster, you're German? Sep 12 02:25:05 cjb, i had no real role model Sep 12 02:25:07 yes Sep 12 02:25:12 i was calle dhitler Sep 12 02:25:13 nazi Sep 12 02:25:14 etc. Sep 12 02:25:14 cjb, I think in the US, it's family income, not gender, that determines when a kid gets a computer. Every female child of a yuppy couple that I know has a computer as soon as she is capable of spilling juice on it, just like little boys. There's not difference. Zero. Sep 12 02:25:16 raster: oh my god:-) Sep 12 02:25:18 raster, You look and sound Australian... Sep 12 02:25:19 for most of my childhood Sep 12 02:25:33 raster is austrian, through and through Sep 12 02:25:45 so i take exception to being labelled "privelidged" Sep 12 02:25:47 KenYoung: again, there was a study, and it disagrees with you. you're welcome to propose alternate studies, or to suggest that my sample size is too small. Sep 12 02:26:04 hey raster, what's a good aussie beer? Sep 12 02:26:08 my parents were not rich Sep 12 02:26:15 in fact i was wone of the pporest at my school Sep 12 02:26:21 my schrooclothers were second hand Sep 12 02:26:22 not new Sep 12 02:26:27 unlike most Sep 12 02:26:30 :'( Sep 12 02:26:36 (at school) Sep 12 02:26:41 raster, i think there's no question that positive discrimination is bad. but fixing the things that discourage women (eg unequal pay) are desirable Sep 12 02:26:52 *plays a violin as a backdrop for Raster's sad story* Sep 12 02:26:59 lol Sep 12 02:27:02 parents drove older crappeir cars where evryone else had soem shiny new fancy thing Sep 12 02:27:04 tim_abell: hey, if women wanted equal pay, they could just.. ask for it. and then they'd get it! Sep 12 02:27:19 raster: but who's lughing now ehhh! Sep 12 02:27:22 cjb, not sure about that Sep 12 02:27:26 tim_abell: (sarcasm) Sep 12 02:27:29 oh Sep 12 02:27:29 emacsen: just taking exception to being labelled "privelidged" Sep 12 02:27:34 * tim_abell feels silly Sep 12 02:27:50 just because i have an attitude of NOT treatign anyone specially Sep 12 02:27:59 raster, I never said you were... I just think you may be going a bit overboard... we all had issues growing up Sep 12 02:28:06 emacsen: (I did) Sep 12 02:28:12 raster, I'm not dismissing yours, just saying we all had issues Sep 12 02:28:36 i had disconcertingly few issues Sep 12 02:28:38 well, I didn't say raster was privileged, but I noted that it's a long-held attitude of people in majority groups to say that minority groups just don't want to {learn, get a job, make more money}. Sep 12 02:28:43 and raster is in a majority group, in this room. Sep 12 02:28:59 yup Sep 12 02:29:09 raster, I could talk about the issues growing up learning disabled and gifted, able to really understand things other people couldn't but unable to make the grades or grasp simple things, things I knew were simple in abstract, but could not get my mind into Sep 12 02:29:15 and i stick by "get off your bum and do it" view :) Sep 12 02:29:32 raster: fine. it's a pretty discredited view, in my opinion. Sep 12 02:29:45 we owe more to ourselves than being satisfied with such blatant inequalities. Sep 12 02:29:47 cjb, actually, i have it on good authority that all those minorities that came into the US illegal don'T want to {learn, get a job, make more money] Sep 12 02:29:58 turns out they're just here to piss off people Sep 12 02:30:04 huh. whoda thought. Sep 12 02:30:09 lol Sep 12 02:30:15 emacsen: thats more a matter of you :0 issues of privilege are external factors that put you in an elevated position better off and able to copy/get ahead than others :) Sep 12 02:30:31 i give free hughs Sep 12 02:30:38 :) Sep 12 02:30:54 cjb: i see nothing inequal around here. Sep 12 02:31:04 raster: you're not looking very hard. Sep 12 02:31:15 cjb, if you see inquality, and we don't... that means one of two things Sep 12 02:31:29 either you need to see that it isn't here, or we need to create some Sep 12 02:31:32 i vote for the latter Sep 12 02:31:45 HAHAHA Sep 12 02:31:49 i vote for it too Sep 12 02:31:55 then we will have something to complain about Sep 12 02:31:57 :) Sep 12 02:32:29 cough Sep 12 02:33:23 anyway, there is a disporportionate amount of male geeks to female geeks in electronics and all computer fields Sep 12 02:33:31 that is true Sep 12 02:33:32 and it's been true since guys were building ham radios Sep 12 02:33:38 it'd be nice if it were otherwise Sep 12 02:33:41 but hey... Sep 12 02:34:12 I'll bet it's been true since guys were sharpening stone tools. Sep 12 02:34:14 yeah, as i said, i'd love to meet more women who could understand what i'm saying when i get off on a rant about programming Sep 12 02:34:26 twichy dont crash:( Sep 12 02:34:28 the most i can settle for, seemingly, is one who understands my political rants Sep 12 02:34:32 ieatlint: *shrug* I'm married to one. There are quite a few. Sep 12 02:34:32 ieatlint: same. Sep 12 02:34:36 Tichy* Sep 12 02:34:44 cjb, does she have friends? :) Sep 12 02:36:33 i also wouldn't mind have a girlfriend who had fewer pairs of shoes than her age Sep 12 02:36:43 because damnit, i don't care Sep 12 02:36:56 lol Sep 12 02:37:22 i think programming is unsexy, i started saying that i work for cirque du soleil when a girl asks Sep 12 02:37:37 lol Sep 12 02:37:39 i feel sorry for my other half putting up with the nerdyness. Sep 12 02:37:53 you live in the wrong part of the world then torero Sep 12 02:38:00 i tell people i work for a mapping company. much better Sep 12 02:38:25 ieatlint: whats the other part of the world where normal girls like programmers? Sep 12 02:38:39 the san francisco bay area Sep 12 02:38:44 oh! Sep 12 02:38:47 my pet hate is being introduced to someone with the line "this is fred, he also knows about computers" Sep 12 02:38:53 there's actually a "geek" fetish amongst many women Sep 12 02:39:10 * torero takes note Sep 12 02:39:30 they also tend to like foreign accents Sep 12 02:39:35 then im definitely in the wrong side of the world Sep 12 02:39:50 ok i have the accent :) Sep 12 02:40:03 yeah, it also doesn't cost $10 for a beer here Sep 12 02:40:10 lol! Sep 12 02:40:26 ieatlint: yes, maybe its time for a relocation Sep 12 02:40:50 if you start from slough it's always time for a relocation Sep 12 02:40:57 (I didn't) Sep 12 02:41:08 $4 for a pint isn't hard to find here (and i mean good beer, not the crappy US beers) Sep 12 02:41:21 ieatlint: gasoline is a much wider gap. Sep 12 02:41:35 (and many people spend more on gasoline than on beer. but not me!) Sep 12 02:41:41 good that i dont drink gasoline Sep 12 02:41:50 if gasoline were alcoholic, i might Sep 12 02:41:52 comparing wine prices may be a better start for finding a lady Sep 12 02:42:00 $4/gallon here Sep 12 02:42:08 unless you are after a ladette Sep 12 02:42:34 i bet you will be able to impress a girl with your gas reserve de 2008, in some years Sep 12 02:42:38 tim_abell, this is the san francisco bay area... what do we know about wine Sep 12 02:42:42 or food Sep 12 02:42:42 ieatlint: gasoline is alcoholic. Sep 12 02:42:56 cjb, i was hoping no-one would mention that Sep 12 02:43:05 (both unleaded and leaded gas contain ethanol.) Sep 12 02:43:07 conversation.level-- Sep 12 02:43:08 tim_abell: heh Sep 12 02:43:11 "two buck chuck" gets you a bottle of wine here Sep 12 02:43:32 ok, then brb Sep 12 02:43:52 ethanol is even the alochol i can drink without severe intestinal pains Sep 12 02:44:18 at risk of being on topic. what happened to all the images and styling for the open moko dialer when installed on the latest 2008.9? Sep 12 02:44:28 sorry to distract the residents from the current ot, btw my partner respects my geekiness and although shes not a developer she is more then happy to experiment with her ubuntu desktop and the FR is technically hers... Sep 12 02:44:58 hipitihop: that's cool. has she ever tried the ubuntu forums or IRC? Sep 12 02:45:01 ...but at the risk of being boaring, did fso M3 make it out and if so links ? I have read the ml Sep 12 02:45:15 hipitihop, my ex liked my geekiness and used linux... she still couldn't understand a word of what i said Sep 12 02:45:18 cjb, yes she irc's frequnetly Sep 12 02:45:29 cool Sep 12 02:45:39 does she have good experiences on IRC, generally? Sep 12 02:45:43 ieatlint: the keyword is ex, mine liked it too, i guess it wears out Sep 12 02:46:02 ieatlint, hehe, mine frequnelty catches herself and says "ah gawd, I actually understood what you said just then" Sep 12 02:46:03 torero, no, that's not why she's an ex, heh Sep 12 02:46:25 hipitihop: it did, http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/OpenmokoFramework/Status_Update_4 Sep 12 02:46:34 oops, I meant to paste http://downloads.openmoko.org/framework/milestone3/ Sep 12 02:46:40 (which that pages links to, anyway) Sep 12 02:46:47 she wants me to teach her to code but life and needing more immediate way to earn a buck gets in the way Sep 12 02:47:01 just get her a python book Sep 12 02:47:31 got that already .... but I'll teach her Smalltalk first ... call me a purist Sep 12 02:48:09 hipitihop: i'd start with pillowtalk myself :) Sep 12 02:48:38 * hipitihop says 1 point to raster Sep 12 02:48:57 :) Sep 12 02:49:00 gpe-scap screenshots itself loading. meh. Sep 12 02:49:03 (just had to say that) Sep 12 02:49:28 teach her useful languages, like visual basic Sep 12 02:49:39 i'm midway through convincing raster to add vb support to enlightenment Sep 12 02:49:49 although if I start traversing object graphs in my sleep I certainly get smacks of the wrong kind Sep 12 02:49:58 * raster kicks ieatlint with a cactus Sep 12 02:50:15 raster, dude, what if i bought you a year's supply of beer? Sep 12 02:50:19 * hipitihop barfs over his keyboard Sep 12 02:50:38 ieatlint: time for food Sep 12 02:50:39 hipitihop, ok, that means you have a problem Sep 12 02:50:40 lunchies! Sep 12 02:50:43 and beer Sep 12 02:50:46 so... toolate Sep 12 02:50:50 i'm supplying my own beer Sep 12 02:50:51 :) Sep 12 02:50:54 you never told me a good aussie beer Sep 12 02:51:06 and you freaky aussies... it's 8pm Sep 12 02:51:07 Coopers Sep 12 02:51:20 i do like barrels Sep 12 02:51:44 ieatlint, ^ Sep 12 02:52:52 cjb, sorry, thanks for the link. Sep 12 02:53:43 so anyone running M3 and can summarise what works and doesn't or has that been on the wiki somewhere Sep 12 02:53:45 yeah, Coopers Sep 12 02:54:07 hipitihop: everything that worked in M2 seems to work Sep 12 02:54:08 * hipitihop gives rwhitby high five Sep 12 02:54:15 i'll need to look for it, i think i can get that here Sep 12 02:54:42 is it possible to put two or more wireless-key wireless-essid pairs in /etc/network/interfaces? Sep 12 02:54:53 for example if i connect from home or work Sep 12 02:54:54 ieatlint, there are 2-3 (perhaps more variations) Sep 12 02:55:47 coops extra strong vintage, pale ale and premium lager are my choices Sep 12 02:56:14 cooprs, rather Sep 12 02:58:03 cjb, is sound on suspend/resume fixed ? Sep 12 02:59:37 hipitihop: yeah Sep 12 02:59:46 I made a call to it while it was in suspend and it worked **** ENDING LOGGING AT Fri Sep 12 02:59:57 2008