**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Mon Sep 22 02:59:57 2008 Sep 22 03:02:06 is it typical to only get about an hour or 2 of battery life with Debian and GPS (via TangoGPS) ? Sep 22 03:13:27 hehe.. my new kernel sits there spitting jffs2 error for fifteen minutes (still hasn't mounted root) and at one moment says "expect badness.." Sep 22 03:13:38 ok, good to know.. Sep 22 03:42:31 * RayDar tries (in vain) to install iptables on his GTA01bv4 Sep 22 03:47:31 RayDar: what's missing? Sep 22 03:48:47 rwhitby: iptables, I guess "opkg install iptables" == "An error ocurred, return value: 2." Sep 22 03:49:11 which distro? it's definitely available for fso-testing on gta01 Sep 22 03:50:59 rwhitby: qtopia Sep 22 03:51:34 real qtopia, or openmoko OM2008? Sep 22 03:52:07 rwhitby: real Sep 22 03:54:52 real qtopia is built on an FSO base image. Sep 22 03:55:30 interesting. Any idea how I can add iptables to it? Sep 22 03:55:53 The kernel used is recent enough that kernel modules from recent FSO images should probably work. Are you sure that it isn't "kernel-module-iptables" you should be intalling? Sep 22 03:58:04 mwester: iptables, I guess "opkg install kernel-module-iptables" == "An error ocurred, return value: 2." Sep 22 03:58:09 ok, my mind is blanking... is there a better way in c to convert an integer to a string than something like sprintf? Sep 22 03:58:32 ieatlint: itoa(integer) Sep 22 03:58:48 yeah, and what lib is itoa in then? Sep 22 03:58:59 stdlib.h or math.h Sep 22 03:59:03 maybe string.h Sep 22 03:59:10 RayDar: did you do a "opkg update"? Sep 22 03:59:35 no, there's nothing in any of those libs that takes an integer and allocates a string filled with it as you describe Sep 22 03:59:46 printf Sep 22 03:59:47 there's atoi, but since that doesn't require allocating data, it's there Sep 22 03:59:52 mwester: That fails too. I get a lot of "Signature check failed" Sep 22 03:59:53 oh Sep 22 04:00:28 I ignored the signature check failed messages, and it still downloaded the package indexes. Sep 22 04:01:07 ieatlint: Doh. itoa is not ANSI Sep 22 04:01:32 RayDar: where are your feed .conf files pointing to? Sep 22 04:01:35 sprintf it is :) Sep 22 04:01:58 i spent like 15min looking through glib api trying to find something Sep 22 04:01:59 rwhitby: I don't know where my feed .conf files are located. Sep 22 04:02:19 ieatlint: I am afraid with ANSI C, you are stuck with strprintf(). Sep 22 04:02:54 sprintf is evil. use vsnprintf instead. Sep 22 04:03:12 i like evil :) Sep 22 04:03:20 RayDar: your feed config files are in /etc/opkg Sep 22 04:03:29 typically one calls the other in the lib anyway. Sep 22 04:03:55 * mwester puts ieatlint into the "evil coder" list. Sep 22 04:04:03 i'm controlling the integer to be made into a string, so there's no worries with sprintf here Sep 22 04:04:30 * mwester mutters something about "famous last words"... Sep 22 04:04:37 :) Sep 22 04:05:39 mwester: OK. There are a bunch of feed files in there. I think they all begin with "src/gz om-dev-all http://buildhost.openmoko.org/daily-feed/" Sep 22 04:05:49 mwester: Should I perhaps change that? Sep 22 04:06:25 That server is no more; yes, you should find a set of feeds that actually work. Sep 22 04:07:23 Try the FSO feeds -- but know that by mixing your feeds, it's only a matter of _when_, not if, you'll trash your system. Sep 22 04:08:27 I only suggest FSO because that's the closest feeds to that particular rootfs of which I'm aware. They may break things, and whatever you do, DO NOT do an "upgrade" with opkg -- that's almost certainly break everything! Sep 22 04:08:30 Amen Sep 22 04:10:31 oh boy, this can be frustrating. Maybe I should just switch to FSO milestone 3. Does anyone know if it has working GPRS, GPS, and iptables? Sep 22 04:12:12 int a = 1; char* string; strprintf(string, "%d", a); /* no worries, I control the integer */ Sep 22 04:14:13 openmoko: 03marek * r4660 10/trunk/src/host/pye17/ (5 files in 3 dirs): Sep 22 04:14:13 openmoko: make evas bindings compile (gtype/include/enum problems fixed) Sep 22 04:14:13 openmoko: fix edje makefile, so that it also can do its job Sep 22 04:14:13 openmoko: remove autogenerated evas_data.defs file from svn Sep 22 04:14:13 openmoko: known issues: Sep 22 04:14:14 openmoko: These bindings heavily work around "gtype" which is required all over the place. At the moment I have no idea what they are good for. It may provoke unexpected results. Sep 22 04:14:37 RayDar: switching from Qtopia to FSO will be a bit of a culture shock, unless you are an experienced Linux user. Sep 22 04:15:45 I would suggest you set your feeds to whatever lpotter says you should, and then just wget and manually install individual ipkgs from downloads.freesmartphone.org/fso-testing/feeds for those that you need that Trolltech does not supply. Sep 22 04:17:14 rwhitby: I have been using Linx for >8 years. But I bet I am still in for a culture shock. The qtopia images are great if you want a cell-phone but at this point, I am more just in need of a GPS capable Internet connection. Sep 22 04:17:45 I found this: http://www.qtopia.net/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?topic_id=885&forum=16 Sep 22 04:18:40 RayDar: wait for 4.4 Sep 22 04:18:47 mwester: hmm - qtopia and asu feed mixing ... Sep 22 04:19:19 ljp: which feed (if any) is recommended for qtopia images? Sep 22 04:19:33 * mwester thinks that a minimal FSO image (without X) would be a better platform for qtopia going forward; then qtopia could use those feeds. Sep 22 04:19:49 Is there VOIP software for Openmoko yet? Furthermore are there services that allow you to send text messages via VOIP style service? - Being able to spoof my real number would be a big plus Sep 22 04:20:05 depends on the image. they broke opkg in the latest qtopia images when they moved. Sep 22 04:20:23 I manually edited the feed configs and opkg upgrade worked. Sep 22 04:20:45 I wont have an image update until 4.4 gets released, but these will have updated rootfs Sep 22 04:21:32 ljp: I cannot. I need this for a road trip. Sep 22 04:21:56 mwester: You are a life saver! Whatever they are paying you, it should be double. Thanks so very much! Sep 22 04:23:28 wish I could release 4.4 beta's... Sep 22 04:24:04 Oh, you can! Sep 22 04:24:08 maybe FDOM is in order? Sep 22 04:24:24 ljp: me too! :( Sep 22 04:24:43 i would erase fdom for a beta") Sep 22 04:25:01 dcc get ljp kewtee4.4beta_notqtopia.zip Sep 22 04:25:16 we know wheres hes at Sep 22 04:25:26 haha Sep 22 04:25:35 well mabe Sep 22 04:25:50 brisbane Sep 22 04:27:55 just shake an bake us an image off YOUR machine an we will test the hell outa it Sep 22 04:28:59 Well, that's the first time I saw opkg actually do something.... it seems like it installed iptables (and dependencies) but there doesn't seem to be an iptables command. argh Sep 22 04:30:40 RayDar: where did you install it from? Sep 22 04:31:49 the one from fso-testing installs /usr/sbin/iptables ... Sep 22 04:33:15 rwhitby: I was in the /etc/opkg folder (I sure hope that isn't what you were asking). The files were downloaded from http://downloads.openmoko.org/repository/Om2008.8/neo1973/ Sep 22 04:34:27 rwhitby: per the instructions on http://www.qtopia.net/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?topic_id=885&forum=16 as found by mwester Sep 22 04:34:43 RayDar: I couldn't recommend using OM2008.8 repositories with Qtopia. Sep 22 04:35:16 but there should be a /usr/sbin/iptables executable in that one too Sep 22 04:39:57 hi Sep 22 04:40:07 I am having issues with python-textutils_2.5.2-ml0_armv4t.opk Sep 22 04:40:20 it is giving the error code 17 Sep 22 04:41:39 I am about to pull my hair out. Sep 22 04:42:59 opkg install iptables iptables-utils kernel-module-ipt-masquerade kernel-module-iptable-nat Sep 22 04:42:59 Package kernel-module-ipt-masquerade (2:2.6.24+git75969+a1e97c611253511ffc2d8c45e3e6d6894fa03fa3-r1.01) installed in root is up to date. Sep 22 04:42:59 Package kernel-module-iptable-nat (2:2.6.24+git75969+a1e97c611253511ffc2d8c45e3e6d6894fa03fa3-r1.01) installed in root is up to date. Sep 22 04:43:00 root@om-gta01:/etc/opkg# opkg install iptables-utils Sep 22 04:43:00 An error ocurred, return value: 2. Sep 22 04:43:01 root@om-gta01:/etc/opkg# opkg install iptables iptables-utils Sep 22 04:43:03 An error ocurred, return value: 3. Sep 22 04:43:47 Looks like I got two of them. Sep 22 04:44:58 RayDar: just wget the files and opkg install from local files Sep 22 04:45:23 since dependencies are never going to work when you mix images and feeds Sep 22 04:54:15 Wow. It is impossible to describe the level of frustration I am feeling. I know I shouldn't throw the phone against the wall, but it is SO tempting. Sep 22 04:55:46 just go find some skater kids and beat on them Sep 22 04:57:02 I'm not a big fat cop. Sep 22 04:57:26 yet Sep 22 04:57:29 hey, it's oddly satisfying even if you aren't a cop Sep 22 04:57:45 leave the skater kids alone Sep 22 04:57:48 hey raster.. Sep 22 04:58:00 ieatlint: boo Sep 22 04:58:01 crap Sep 22 04:58:12 i'm going to have to implement an at-clone that groks the rtc. Sep 22 04:58:14 finally learnt how to do/use edjes today, bravo... much easier than toolkits :) Sep 22 04:58:17 fuckers Sep 22 04:58:37 ieatlint: should be getting better over time - adding mroe layout options/tools etc. Sep 22 04:58:55 well, for UIs with just buttons and such, it's great... Sep 22 04:59:03 hehee Sep 22 04:59:06 obviously there's a lot more that widget toolkits offer Sep 22 04:59:06 if u need to do more... Sep 22 04:59:13 ewl included Sep 22 04:59:24 you incinuating i should add it myself? Sep 22 04:59:49 no Sep 22 04:59:55 its on the plan Sep 22 04:59:58 already Sep 22 05:00:10 just not a top priority Sep 22 05:00:13 damn, i'll just take my infinite loops elsewhere Sep 22 05:00:41 OK. That does it. I am going to switch to FSO and deal with it's headaches for a while. Sep 22 05:02:59 This is probably a mistake. Sep 22 05:03:31 It's amazing how something can be so tantilizingly close to working and yet be a universe away from what you need. Sep 22 05:05:32 Anyone's opinion on if 2008.9 is working very well? Sep 22 05:06:02 it's working rather well Sep 22 05:06:25 :) That's good. I think I may give that a try tonight. Sep 22 05:06:33 How's the battery usage btw? Sep 22 05:06:47 with suspend, at least a day Sep 22 05:07:04 qtopia and om2007 both don't have propper suspend modes Sep 22 05:07:15 but 2008.x all have relatively working suspend mode Sep 22 05:07:26 huh? qtopia suspends just fine Sep 22 05:07:35 * rooly stands corrected Sep 22 05:07:38 :) Sep 22 05:07:45 i never found the 'suspend' option anyway Sep 22 05:07:49 anywho, Sep 22 05:07:55 it s the system that suspend may be winky Sep 22 05:08:10 there are a few tidbits and buglets tho: Sep 22 05:08:26 * RayDar reboots his newly flashed FSO Milestone 3 Sep 22 05:08:26 don't suspend right after wakeup, or wakeup right after suspend (hit the power button) Sep 22 05:08:27 rooly: it suspends on its own, but its in the power manager apps Sep 22 05:08:45 If you were waiting for someone to call you for a job interview, would you rest easy knowing the FR would come out of suspend and ring? Sep 22 05:09:02 safiiru: hell no Sep 22 05:09:04 haha Sep 22 05:09:09 for me, it would Sep 22 05:09:15 i test that a few dozen times at each install Sep 22 05:09:26 if not, i accept low battery life Sep 22 05:09:36 Ok, that's just one of my test questions for weather I should swap phones and bring my FR to work as my normal phone. Sep 22 05:09:36 i have in my tests found about 1/20 times is wont resume from suspenjd Sep 22 05:09:37 i have a spare phone anyway Sep 22 05:09:42 from soem heavy testing Sep 22 05:09:43 safiiru: no Sep 22 05:09:54 thats a 5% chance u wont get the job u were goign to get... Sep 22 05:10:00 thats not really good Sep 22 05:10:00 :) Sep 22 05:10:04 the point release is working Sep 22 05:10:18 i've found that 1/20 or over time, it just won't suspend, but the screen will blank Sep 22 05:10:31 there's that problem too Sep 22 05:10:40 qtopia is halting the suspend Sep 22 05:10:45 also, the lock button stops locking over time Sep 22 05:10:49 well mroe accurately qpe Sep 22 05:10:57 u request a suspend and it basically cblocks it Sep 22 05:11:07 what's this qtopia app "_ignore_"? Sep 22 05:11:23 i think calypso gsm issues as the calypso is not playing nice and powering-down to passive/inactive mode Sep 22 05:11:58 how hard would it be to implement a feature in apm Sep 22 05:12:15 where, while charging, it doesn't enter sleep mode Sep 22 05:12:26 not the job of apm Sep 22 05:12:30 really Sep 22 05:12:42 in 2008.08/09 Sep 22 05:12:44 use ompower Sep 22 05:12:52 u can put suspendson hold any time Sep 22 05:12:53 ahh, well in ompower then Sep 22 05:12:56 its documented on the wiki Sep 22 05:13:03 any app can do it Sep 22 05:13:13 then the charging app Sep 22 05:13:20 just, dont' suspend while charging Sep 22 05:13:26 well there is no charging app Sep 22 05:13:35 as such i dont think u want the charging to stopit Sep 22 05:13:47 u want a usb conenction to an external host to do it Sep 22 05:14:04 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Ompower Sep 22 05:14:20 not necisarrily...since a usb connection is not always equal to charge mode Sep 22 05:14:32 thats my point Sep 22 05:14:41 and charge is not always a usb conenction Sep 22 05:14:45 eg wallcharger Sep 22 05:15:00 u possibly want "no suspend" when plugged into a pc Sep 22 05:15:06 so u can ssh in/out in peace Sep 22 05:15:14 and with wallcharger - u can suspend Sep 22 05:15:20 charging is slower if u dont suspend Sep 22 05:15:30 or just do like winmo and turn off sleep while charging Sep 22 05:15:51 andy was particularly upset with the idea that you shouldnt suspend when charging in any way Sep 22 05:15:55 as "it charcges more slowely" Sep 22 05:16:00 thats why nothing was every implemented Sep 22 05:16:18 andy was very unhappy with turnign off suspend while charging Sep 22 05:16:19 i agreed Sep 22 05:16:25 err Sep 22 05:16:32 agreed that it'd be nice to not suspend while plugged in Sep 22 05:16:35 for ssh/usbnet goop Sep 22 05:16:39 but i just left it alone Sep 22 05:16:48 the mechanisms are in lpace to be able to encofrce such a polciy if u want Sep 22 05:17:03 i could probably do it via some kind of little daemon Sep 22 05:17:26 yes Sep 22 05:17:29 go write it Sep 22 05:17:29 :) Sep 22 05:17:56 hmm, poll apm or the battery status Sep 22 05:18:02 probably the battery Sep 22 05:18:17 and if charging, throw a power-on to ompower Sep 22 05:18:36 having trouble with qtopia and email via wifi... Sep 22 05:18:49 qtopia is refusing to see my server. Sep 22 05:18:57 I get "unknown error". Sep 22 05:19:12 tcpdump? Sep 22 05:19:38 rooly: as i said. all possible Sep 22 05:19:39 :) Sep 22 05:19:40 * rooly writes this script in bash right now Sep 22 05:19:48 i'll just poll the user-space battery data Sep 22 05:19:51 i might add stuff like that to illume some day Sep 22 05:19:56 or e Sep 22 05:20:00 and if "charging", throw a power-on to ompower Sep 22 05:20:02 as the battery is actually from core e Sep 22 05:20:08 SpeedEvil: was that to me? Wouldn't tcpdump be a little extreme on the FR? Sep 22 05:20:37 sgrover: I was meaning on teh server. Sep 22 05:20:45 sgrover: to work out what it's trying to say Sep 22 05:21:17 ahh. that would make too much sense... :) Let me check the server logs... Sep 22 05:29:09 wtf Sep 22 05:29:15 my ssh refuses to work now Sep 22 05:30:26 oh yeah Sep 22 05:30:28 firewall Sep 22 05:33:19 RayDar: you might want to get an fso-testing image, which is later than milestone3 and has the feeds preconfigured Sep 22 05:34:15 rwhitby: I see that the feeds are indeed not configured. Sep 22 05:34:35 * RayDar scours the web for this test image that rwhitby speaks of. Sep 22 05:35:12 RayDar: url that I gave before Sep 22 05:35:21 downloads.freesmartphone.org/fso-testing/... Sep 22 05:38:51 * raster begins work on funeral Sep 22 05:39:22 rwhitby: http://downloads.freesmartphone.org/fso-testing/feeds/ doesn't have images, just .ipk files Sep 22 05:39:35 raster: Finally burying that old Palm Vx of yours? Sep 22 05:39:44 hahah Sep 22 05:39:45 no Sep 22 05:40:08 just an app that is meant to be a second-accurate (not minute) kidn of at/atd with wake from suspend ability Sep 22 05:40:09 RayDar: that's why I didn't put ../feeds in the URL this time Sep 22 05:40:18 look in the ../images dir Sep 22 05:40:27 i'll oribably make it talk dbus Sep 22 05:40:28 rwhitby: doh. My mistake. I found them. Sep 22 05:40:42 raster: call it lazarus Sep 22 05:41:16 rwhitby: that so reminds me of the amiga Sep 22 05:41:26 nah Sep 22 05:41:29 funeral Sep 22 05:41:36 as its really intended to "wake" Sep 22 05:41:37 :) Sep 22 05:41:38 ok, it's your funeral ;-) Sep 22 05:42:14 since i can find no existing app that has a timer5 queue that can run stuff Sep 22 05:42:24 and do rtc wakes Sep 22 05:42:36 unless someone has something to point to? Sep 22 05:44:29 * RayDar thinks fondly of the Amiga4000T he has gathering dust. Sep 22 05:45:06 * raster sighs thinking of his 1200 gathering dust Sep 22 05:45:19 * raster sighs some more thinkign of his vic20 gathering dust Sep 22 05:45:56 * RayDar thinks of the brand new A1200 he won at a conference and never used. Sep 22 05:46:16 * LetoTo still has his A1000 Sep 22 05:46:22 oooh Sep 22 05:46:23 it refuses to break down Sep 22 05:46:25 a1000 Sep 22 05:46:26 * RayDar still has his A1000 too. Sep 22 05:46:43 RayDar: did you get GPRS via usb bla bla to work? Sep 22 05:46:58 With a whopping 2MB RAM! Sep 22 05:47:01 ceda: Hell no! Sep 22 05:47:26 hehe, ok. any reason to why not? Sep 22 05:47:34 ceda: I needed to install iptables but I couldn't do it on the qtopia image I had. Sep 22 05:47:37 i had the 8mb extension :) Sep 22 05:47:43 shoudl have put an amiga into a phone Sep 22 05:48:08 * RayDar is warmed by all the Amiga users here Sep 22 05:48:15 RayDar: ah well, using Qtopia is another story. To me that feels like using a normal locked in phone Sep 22 05:48:17 :) Sep 22 05:48:38 * ceda came from the Atari world Sep 22 05:48:45 * raster remebders his days of copper list hand-crafting and blitter-games fondly Sep 22 05:49:30 ceda: Any idea what makes you feel that way? :) Sep 22 05:49:36 * mwester remembers when someone invented dirt. Sep 22 05:49:50 :p Sep 22 05:50:18 (since technically it's just a case of there being no X server :) ) Sep 22 05:50:19 leinirAWAY: there's no iptables support built in =) Sep 22 05:51:00 ceda: Right now I am installing a "test" FSO image as I continue to chase Cerberus along the banks of the river Styx. Sep 22 05:51:48 ceda: in the kernel, or? Sep 22 05:52:00 raster: I dreamt up an idea of a transparent keyboard that uses the entire screen (mockup at http://wendt.se/software/openmoko/screens/keyboard-layer.png). Would it be possible to create something like that without having to bend X? Sep 22 05:52:04 ceda: I wouldn't mind the feel of a normal phone, but with all sorts of power underneath. Sep 22 05:52:07 arh, crap, sorry, gotta run out! Sep 22 05:52:24 ceda: saw it. Sep 22 05:52:33 basically not practical except for a few apps Sep 22 05:52:42 leinirAWAY: no, I don't have any good reasons. It's just that it's more fun to play with the other images Sep 22 05:52:44 lots of gotchas in getrting it to work Sep 22 05:52:53 ie need xevie event redirection layer Sep 22 05:53:05 (x does it - but it really is 1 app only that does that like a wm and compositor) Sep 22 05:53:08 u need compositing Sep 22 05:53:16 You're an xevie event redirection layer! Sep 22 05:53:22 and then u need a way for apps to say "yes u can overlay me - i dont use the mouse anyway" Sep 22 05:53:26 and then where u can overlay on the app Sep 22 05:53:34 its a big list of gotchas Sep 22 05:53:41 so as such... not until regular kebds are spotless Sep 22 05:53:48 most aps wont be able to use it Sep 22 05:53:59 as basically the kbd will cover important things like entry boxes Sep 22 05:54:01 buttons Sep 22 05:54:05 etc. etc. Sep 22 05:54:07 I get all of the technical issues, and I see that it's hard to do Sep 22 05:54:22 there is nothing missing in x Sep 22 05:54:38 but I don't see how it would be bad to use it in a browser to input URLs for instance Sep 22 05:54:43 beyond a way to say what can be covered (region of window) and thats a matter of properti4es being put on the windows Sep 22 05:54:45 or in a browser to put in your blog entry Sep 22 05:55:10 the kbd would appear only when you focus an input field just like the keyboards work today Sep 22 05:55:16 because a press on the screen may mean a key press Sep 22 05:55:21 or u want to press the button under it Sep 22 05:55:22 for example Sep 22 05:55:28 or uw ant to drag and scroll Sep 22 05:55:29 etc. Sep 22 05:55:53 u still need compositing Sep 22 05:56:00 and that in itself is just not practical on the FR Sep 22 05:56:00 I was thinking that when the keyboard's there, all input is keyboard and you'd have to close it down before you can use the app underneath it Sep 22 05:56:02 due to speed Sep 22 05:56:21 at qvga - maybe Sep 22 05:56:24 but not vga Sep 22 05:56:39 u could tunr compositing on selectively only trhwn kbd is up Sep 22 05:56:43 and off again afterwards Sep 22 05:56:48 (to allow the window to update underneath) Sep 22 05:56:53 but that'd also cause flicker Sep 22 05:57:00 as such lots of gotchas Sep 22 05:57:13 in deed Sep 22 05:57:25 something to worry about once all the normal kbd stuff is exhausted i think Sep 22 05:58:05 well, it'd be one thing that would sting all the other smartphones users in their eyes .... Sep 22 05:58:17 such as iPhone users :) Sep 22 05:58:54 i doubt it Sep 22 05:59:20 it wont get u anything really much except the app window not shrinkign to make room for kbd Sep 22 05:59:35 in portrait (normal) usage that most people use thnigs in Sep 22 05:59:44 it doesntr buy you anything in terms of kbd size/space Sep 22 05:59:53 as i said Sep 22 05:59:54 raster Sep 22 05:59:54 nice idea Sep 22 05:59:56 raster: one last question/go: would it be possible to do without composition - take snapshots and write on that snapshot Sep 22 05:59:59 got lots of caveats Sep 22 06:00:04 a poor man's solution so to speak Sep 22 06:00:08 has anyone fixed the little typo in the python __init.py__ script? Sep 22 06:00:14 will need lots of help from toolkits and apps to do things like specify where the kbd can go Sep 22 06:00:24 and it'd be possible Sep 22 06:00:30 but u'd not see any updates of what u are typing Sep 22 06:00:34 not possible Sep 22 06:01:17 why would the application need to have a say in where the kbd can go? Sep 22 06:01:18 not even periodically, like every two seconds, or after 500 ms of keyboard silence? (take a new snapshot) Sep 22 06:01:53 just always overlay it over the whole screen, the user can hide it if he wants to interact with the app Sep 22 06:02:07 mpr: so the kbd doesnt cover important things u need to see/interact with Sep 22 06:02:09 (I also wonder what mpr just said - the idea is to cover everything until you're done typing) Sep 22 06:02:23 rooly: what's the trac number for that bug? Sep 22 06:02:35 i don't know Sep 22 06:02:41 ceda: to do that u'd need to clear the screen,w ait for app to redraw (unknown - u have no idea when the app will have finished redrawing.. UNLESS u do compositing), then draw on top agaiun Sep 22 06:02:43 raster: but I see the issue of editing text Sep 22 06:02:44 i'm just wonderin Sep 22 06:02:49 also grab x so no one draws or does anything Sep 22 06:02:57 well if it's transparent you can see through it, and if you want to interact with the app then don't keep the kdb open. :) Sep 22 06:03:03 ceda: yes Sep 22 06:03:11 editing will just not be practical unless u can see it Sep 22 06:03:28 yep Sep 22 06:03:47 mpr: the problem is your fingers are busy possibly covering up what u are typing Sep 22 06:03:57 u want apps to be able to hint where to put it so thigns dont get covered Sep 22 06:04:11 also that will only work very well if the reghion its on is fairly un0-busy Sep 22 06:04:14 ie a big entry box Sep 22 06:04:14 the basic reason to why I like it was that it could provide a way to type fast and use the entire space available = larger areas to hit Sep 22 06:04:25 if its a web page with tonnes of buttons, text, images etc. Sep 22 06:04:29 seeing the kbd will be hard Sep 22 06:04:40 yeah but things like a big entry box are exactly where I imagine a thing like that would be useful Sep 22 06:04:42 and u have to make it work on all possible window content Sep 22 06:04:48 so u need it partly translucent to see Sep 22 06:04:54 but that also reduces functionality Sep 22 06:05:04 its a good idea in limited circumstances Sep 22 06:05:08 eg the terminal - it's good Sep 22 06:05:11 u dont "edit" tyext much Sep 22 06:05:13 u type Sep 22 06:05:20 anyone know the right incantation for tcpdump to give me the traffic between my FR and server, and be readable in WireShark? Sep 22 06:05:27 u dont go selecting and scrolling and pressing other buttons or checkboxes etc. Sep 22 06:05:35 its also good if the terminal has a solid single color bg Sep 22 06:05:39 if that bg is someting else Sep 22 06:05:39 ... Sep 22 06:05:47 I can see 3 lines of traffic - but can't quite tell what they are doing (hence wireshark) Sep 22 06:05:52 but u need to knwo where it is useful Sep 22 06:05:54 and where it is not Sep 22 06:06:01 and thus apps need to hint where in their window it'd be useful Sep 22 06:06:35 I'd see popping the full-screen kbd up when filling in a textarea and then hiding it again to click checkboxes etc. on a form Sep 22 06:07:04 but the kbd is OVER the checkboxes Sep 22 06:07:07 and the other things Sep 22 06:07:09 it can take a minute to fill in a textarea w/ the fr so it's not much overhead to bring up and hide the kdb :) Sep 22 06:07:10 it will be hard to see Sep 22 06:07:22 no it's not after you click the qwerty in the upper left corner :) Sep 22 06:07:33 takes half a second to hide or show the kbd, no big deal Sep 22 06:07:48 no no Sep 22 06:07:50 errr Sep 22 06:07:51 ok Sep 22 06:07:53 take that kbd image Sep 22 06:07:56 raster: Sep 22 06:07:56 raster: so _when_ we get composite working nice with the glamo *hmm* I can come back and provide some € and have it implemented? Sep 22 06:08:00 put it over your favorite porn photo Sep 22 06:08:05 then see how easy it is to read Sep 22 06:08:18 does ompower prevent only suspend, or screen blanking too Sep 22 06:08:25 I mean, I rarely use the mouse to select words or skip in a text field (be it a TEXTAREA in html/wordpad, eclipse or the terminal) Sep 22 06:08:27 do you read your physical keyboard to know what to press?-) Sep 22 06:08:30 ceb whhen? never will. the glamo literally is missing gfx ops to do xrender properly Sep 22 06:08:36 u'll learn the key positions quickly Sep 22 06:08:53 mpr: a lot of peolpe do Sep 22 06:09:04 they look at it to know where to p;position their figners to start Sep 22 06:09:06 raster: if you could send me your favorite porn photo I'd mock up the image and show that it's useful, still ;) Sep 22 06:09:07 yeah, but those people aren't buying freerunners :) Sep 22 06:09:13 u dont have any tactile feedback at all Sep 22 06:09:24 so visual feedback is the most omportant thnig Sep 22 06:09:32 anyway Sep 22 06:09:40 it has lots of gotchas Sep 22 06:09:41 yeah I'm not claiming it'd be superior in all ways Sep 22 06:09:46 its is not universally usable Sep 22 06:09:53 just saying that could be better than smaller kbd in some cases Sep 22 06:10:00 i can say that i dont intend to implement it :) Sep 22 06:10:07 i dont have the time Sep 22 06:10:08 gotta go to work Sep 22 06:10:12 e.g. finger use when you don't have a stylus at hand etc. Sep 22 06:10:21 as to implement it properly means a whole bunch of {"not yet workign or not ever going to happen" things Sep 22 06:10:26 like compositing Sep 22 06:10:35 hints on where to put it Sep 22 06:10:36 etc. Sep 22 06:10:49 still saying that those hints wouldn't be necessary :) Sep 22 06:10:51 and until all the prerequisites are in place Sep 22 06:10:55 no point worrying about it Sep 22 06:10:59 i am saying they are Sep 22 06:11:20 well then you're thinking of a different usage scenario than I am :) Sep 22 06:11:22 u at least need hints the other way Sep 22 06:11:26 Anyone know offhand what resolution qtopia runs at? Sep 22 06:11:26 letting apps knwo what WILL get obscured Sep 22 06:11:34 so aps dont go placing important stuff there Sep 22 06:11:37 they don't need to know that. :) Sep 22 06:11:52 the apps shouldn't change their layout _at all_ Sep 22 06:12:09 bringing up the kbd shouldn't even cause a redraw event to go to the app in the ideal case Sep 22 06:12:24 http://rafb.net/p/bb8y4R92.html Sep 22 06:12:25 with compositing it wouldnt Sep 22 06:12:28 the compositing system woudl do it Sep 22 06:12:28 http://rafb.net/p/Z0bk1A21.html Sep 22 06:14:51 Hai Sep 22 06:15:03 Python on Qtopia anyone? opkg wont work for me.. Sep 22 06:15:58 mpr: as such - the idea there is nothing more than this: (if u basically disallow interaction with rthe app beyond typing for it for anything under the kbd): Sep 22 06:16:04 1. DONT resize app window when showing kbd Sep 22 06:16:14 2. have compositing work Sep 22 06:16:26 3. have the kbd have a theme with a transparent bg. Sep 22 06:16:29 :) Sep 22 06:16:39 exactly Sep 22 06:16:47 if u are throwing out all the important other bits Sep 22 06:16:51 like being able to select text Sep 22 06:16:56 or place the cursor while kbd is up Sep 22 06:16:59 being able to scroll etc.; etc. Sep 22 06:17:15 then there is no need to have an exevie layer (tho i will add one ot e anyway) Sep 22 06:17:18 why would moving the cursor not be possible? Sep 22 06:17:26 I mean with CTRL+right arrowk key Sep 22 06:17:28 ceda: he keyboard is on top Sep 22 06:17:37 well not with your fingers Sep 22 06:17:41 u cant press where u want it Sep 22 06:17:47 u need to use cursor-keys Sep 22 06:17:50 but I never do that anyway Sep 22 06:17:55 yabo: they guys seem deep in discussion on some coding / design issues. support questions are getting lost in the flood.. :) Sep 22 06:18:02 yeah, 1&2&3 exactly Sep 22 06:18:09 oh, sgrover.. hihi :-))) Sep 22 06:18:21 and of coruse 1+2+3 means.. compositign needs to work/be sane Sep 22 06:18:25 raster: I use the mouse to click buttons. I don't use it to place the cursor, select text in an input etc Sep 22 06:18:36 and I think that "either keyboard or app interaction, take your pick by clicking the qwerty icon" is a perfectly valid usage model Sep 22 06:18:38 and that itself isnt really something the Fr is going to be good at. Sep 22 06:18:43 your'e wait9ing for a new hw platform Sep 22 06:18:52 anyway, Could someone help me install Python on my fr? I am using Qtopia, and i am getting long errorcodes when i try opkg Sep 22 06:19:27 that is the biggest crux of the problem - if u are willing to throw out inptu events goign anywhere other than the kbd Sep 22 06:20:00 raster: ok. Thanks for answering. Sep 22 06:20:04 *really should be going* Sep 22 06:20:47 crap Sep 22 06:20:48 e already has a composite manager module Sep 22 06:20:49 not working Sep 22 06:20:49 yeah, I agree the transparency could be a showstopper for implementing that concept on the fr Sep 22 06:20:50 u can use xcompmgr Sep 22 06:21:03 was just arguing against your other points :) Sep 22 06:21:04 it already supprots argb desiitnation dinwos - turn the option on Sep 22 06:21:11 and just have your theme use semi-trans gfx Sep 22 06:21:14 already all works Sep 22 06:21:27 only thing then that would need doing is the "dont resize apps" option Sep 22 06:21:51 i've already been considering that along with a draggable kbd Sep 22 06:21:54 ie it pops up from bottom Sep 22 06:21:59 and u can drag it to the top of the screen Sep 22 06:22:04 if u dont like it at the bottom Sep 22 06:22:08 thus just repositioning it Sep 22 06:22:19 this woudl go together with a "dont resize" option Sep 22 06:22:26 dont know who asked me about this before, but here is the link to download music from myspace without any tools: http://www.Download.Myspace.Music.43.gs Sep 22 06:22:36 as now it doesnt resize u may want to move the kebd out of the way of where u are seeing your entered text Sep 22 06:22:47 yeah, kbd overlay w/ no resize would be useful Sep 22 06:23:00 and that'd without semi-transparency Sep 22 06:23:04 just solid windows Sep 22 06:23:20 yeah, would be useful nonetheless Sep 22 06:23:43 though sometimes the resize is better, so there'd have to be some kind of option somewhere to choose which one to do Sep 22 06:24:42 mpr: yes Sep 22 06:24:43 maybe it is working... Sep 22 06:24:47 i'd make it an option globally Sep 22 06:24:58 and then apps can set hints fi they prefer to be resized or overlayed Sep 22 06:24:58 and then the hard question, which one to make default :) Sep 22 06:25:08 then u'd also have an option to respect the apps hints or not Sep 22 06:25:21 i'd rather everything be a hard choice for a user as to what option to use Sep 22 06:25:28 not some complicated incantation of commands Sep 22 06:25:30 or having to write apps Sep 22 06:25:35 or install/uninstall packages Sep 22 06:25:36 yeah Sep 22 06:25:45 just choose your poison - the way you like it Sep 22 06:25:49 in quick gui Sep 22 06:25:54 but still you have to decide which one is the default w/ no hints and no user configuration Sep 22 06:25:58 defaults are important Sep 22 06:26:14 yup, it's working Sep 22 06:26:18 raster, saw my scripts? Sep 22 06:26:32 i.e. is the global setting 'resize' or 'overlay' right after flashing the image Sep 22 06:26:43 rooly: yup. a "hack" - but would work Sep 22 06:26:43 :) Sep 22 06:27:06 i'm testing the plugged in part again Sep 22 06:27:12 just to make sure Sep 22 06:27:15 (well hack only because its done in /bin/sh ... and you dont use a generic batter/power class and go to specific freerunenr-only devices) Sep 22 06:27:16 give it a minute... Sep 22 06:27:27 mrpthat would also be a user option Sep 22 06:27:31 user selects default mode Sep 22 06:27:37 when? Sep 22 06:27:43 well...i only own a freerunner Sep 22 06:27:43 app can have a "well i prefer this mode anyway" hint Sep 22 06:27:44 some kind of pop-up during first boot? Sep 22 06:27:54 does the battery talk to dbus? Sep 22 06:28:00 and then users can also have a "fuck the apps - do it my way always" mode Sep 22 06:28:06 yeah Sep 22 06:28:30 okay...seems to still be working... Sep 22 06:28:41 does the usb0 stay 'up' when not connected? Sep 22 06:28:50 but what's the value of the global option when the user gets the device to their hands for the first time? Sep 22 06:29:52 opensource people don't usually pay enough attention to default settings since everything in configurable, and as a result in a default desktop each application has some weird defaults which have to be configured by hand to make things usable Sep 22 06:30:27 like kde... Sep 22 06:30:30 * rooly bleghs Sep 22 06:30:39 i'm sorry Sep 22 06:30:43 i had to take a crack at it Sep 22 06:30:47 * rooly cringes Sep 22 06:31:58 Could someone help me install Python on my fr? I am using Qtopia, and i am getting long errorcodes when i try opkg install with the unofficial repositories Sep 22 06:43:40 wow. I finally got GPS working. Sep 22 06:43:47 tookahelluvalottawork Sep 22 06:44:05 RayDar: with fso-testing image? Sep 22 06:44:43 rwhitby: Yessir Sep 22 06:45:52 how accurate is it RayDar Sep 22 06:46:58 gambler: Right now, I have it connected to an external antenna which is outside. It's dead-on and doesn't seem to be drifting much. Sep 22 06:47:55 RayDar, why the antenna Sep 22 06:48:06 unless your going to use it like that? Sep 22 06:48:24 gambler: I had heard that the first time it gets a fix it will take forever using the internal antenna. Sep 22 06:48:52 gambler: Yeah, I am probably going to use it like that. I have the antenna. It is sure to give better reception in the car. Sep 22 06:49:28 This GPS program that comes with the FSO is so lacking when compared to my Palm OS app. Sep 22 06:50:15 I am really curious to know how it works without the antenna...Im having issues obtaining a device atm. Sep 22 06:51:15 mpr: the default value from first run - irrelevant iu thinmk Sep 22 06:51:28 once we are at that point ic onsider the problem solved Sep 22 06:51:29 :) Sep 22 06:51:38 u could have a first-run wizard Sep 22 06:51:47 (frankly we need one anyway - e has the infra for one) Sep 22 06:51:58 gambler: OK. I took off the external antenna. Sep 22 06:51:58 but then how lengthy do u make such a first-setup? Sep 22 06:52:02 how many things do u ask? Sep 22 06:52:10 do u collect things into macro config blobs? Sep 22 06:53:25 you considering it irrelevant is the problem :) Sep 22 06:53:40 even though the resize/overlay thing is good either way Sep 22 06:53:49 but speaking more generally :) Sep 22 06:54:03 and yeah I'm quite strongly against first-run wizards as well Sep 22 06:54:09 just make the defaults sensible Sep 22 06:54:21 why is that bad? Sep 22 06:54:25 the options are there Sep 22 06:54:30 u dont like it one way - change the option Sep 22 06:54:36 problem is solved Sep 22 06:54:48 and u do need first-run wizards Sep 22 06:54:56 they just need to not be a 432 screen afair Sep 22 06:55:00 affair Sep 22 06:55:06 eg Sep 22 06:55:08 it's bad if defaults are not optimal and everyone has to change something in the settings to make the device work well Sep 22 06:55:09 like set the time/date Sep 22 06:55:09 openmoko: 03marek * r4661 10/trunk/src/host/pye17/ (Makefile evas/Makefile evas/evas.override): Sep 22 06:55:09 openmoko: disabled edje binding - can't work without other libs being built first Sep 22 06:55:09 openmoko: added linker information Sep 22 06:55:09 openmoko: 2 functions that are not implemented yet overridden Sep 22 06:55:09 openmoko: known issues: Sep 22 06:55:12 openmoko: evas crashes on "import evas" Sep 22 06:55:26 defaults will never make everyone happy Sep 22 06:55:27 ever Sep 22 06:55:30 of course Sep 22 06:55:51 but they can provide a working start point which everyone can then tweak to their needs Sep 22 06:55:56 i dont think its something to bother even debating until the optiosn are there Sep 22 06:55:59 and all the nuts and bolts work Sep 22 06:56:02 once its there Sep 22 06:56:10 and its just a question of defaults - worry about it then Sep 22 06:57:30 that worrying just is often left undone and devs say "ship it" with some completely random defaults :) Sep 22 06:57:40 thats fine Sep 22 06:57:50 as packagers can then ship different defaults Sep 22 06:57:52 eg Sep 22 06:57:53 fso Sep 22 06:57:54 om Sep 22 06:57:59 etc. Sep 22 06:58:00 :) Sep 22 06:58:24 ..or not, most probably the defaults the upstream devs chose just go as-is to om factory images :) Sep 22 06:58:56 at that point "not my problem" Sep 22 06:59:04 chances are i'll make defaults somethnig *I* like Sep 22 06:59:06 and think is usable Sep 22 06:59:44 well that's all that I expect, just that at least some thought is put to them at some point. :) Sep 22 06:59:44 chances are given my experience that i'll likely make a lot of people happy with that Sep 22 07:00:43 mpr: oh sure! Sep 22 07:00:47 dude Sep 22 07:00:56 u dont t5hink i'd make software i write at LEAST usabel for me? Sep 22 07:01:00 (out of the box) Sep 22 07:01:06 i'm a lazy bastard Sep 22 07:01:13 i dont want to have to write some custom config for myself Sep 22 07:01:19 and then b e the only one with that Sep 22 07:01:29 invariably - iun e land, e comes with what i like as the default Sep 22 07:01:32 not everyone likes it Sep 22 07:01:42 i know - that - thus i make so much stuff a config option Sep 22 07:02:00 but its normally a pretty usable default - and based on me actually using the stuff while developing it Sep 22 07:02:10 (eg i use e 24/7 - havew done so for years.) Sep 22 07:02:32 so it wont be arbitrary Sep 22 07:02:38 yeah, I think the point has been made and no disagreement exists. :) Sep 22 07:02:40 but for example it'll have slopyp focus - not click to focus Sep 22 07:02:44 as i just despise click to focus Sep 22 07:03:08 and yes I've been happy with your defaults so far, being a loud proponent of your 2008.8 image over the official ones and all. :) Sep 22 07:03:21 :) Sep 22 07:03:23 morning Sep 22 07:03:34 i do realise i need to make ti easier to package more defaults Sep 22 07:03:37 and make it easier to select Sep 22 07:03:46 eg first thing u get a window Sep 22 07:03:52 "which default profiel do u want?" Sep 22 07:03:57 "raster's" Sep 22 07:04:00 "om's" Sep 22 07:04:03 "mpr's" Sep 22 07:04:08 "yo momma's" Sep 22 07:04:10 ... Sep 22 07:04:34 (and just pre-can a selection of favorite ones by default so peoepl can choose from one of N pre-setup starting points) Sep 22 07:05:10 not a very high priority imo Sep 22 07:05:17 just make the default profile good. :) Sep 22 07:05:26 imho more important than many other things :) Sep 22 07:05:33 its all alreayd there anyway Sep 22 07:05:38 profile handling etc. Sep 22 07:06:36 yeah, but if the default's good then it's easier to just change a few options that bother you than find out whether mpr's profile or yo momma's is better Sep 22 07:07:05 sure Sep 22 07:07:08 then just use default Sep 22 07:07:23 but if you've seen screenshots of mpr's profile and like what u hjear Sep 22 07:07:26 select it first go Sep 22 07:07:31 save the tweaking Sep 22 07:07:37 sure Sep 22 07:08:01 but not very relevant before we even have more than a few options to configure :) Sep 22 07:08:28 when the option count goes in the dozens or more then the profiles would indeed become useful Sep 22 07:08:47 good morning Sep 22 07:09:28 mrp actually e has 100's of options Sep 22 07:09:36 thats why Sep 22 07:09:39 illume not so much :) Sep 22 07:09:47 u have been exposed to a mere fraction of them Sep 22 07:09:53 illume has only a few Sep 22 07:09:58 but it relies on certain e setup Sep 22 07:10:05 ther4es stuff that u just dont get access to Sep 22 07:10:12 because its been de-configured and removed Sep 22 07:10:16 eg virtual desktops Sep 22 07:10:23 screen rotate/resiolution Sep 22 07:10:27 I do use e17 as well and have seen the config screen, so yes I do see why you're implementing profiles Sep 22 07:10:32 keybindings (auxpower) Sep 22 07:10:36 just talking from the perspective of fr at the moment Sep 22 07:10:36 screenlock options Sep 22 07:10:45 i'm being more general Sep 22 07:10:48 :) Sep 22 07:11:18 Hello Sep 22 07:11:28 i am trying to install python, but i cant do it Sep 22 07:11:30 my fso image right now has e with dropshadows, different theme, virtual desktosp etc. etc. Sep 22 07:11:32 opkg fails Sep 22 07:11:39 even illume will grow many more options over time Sep 22 07:11:41 i am on a freerunenr with qtopia Sep 22 07:11:43 inf act illume needs to be split Sep 22 07:11:46 could someone help me out please? Sep 22 07:11:56 its justa big lump to save dev time Sep 22 07:12:04 it really needs splitting into smaller sub-units Sep 22 07:12:08 like the gagdets Sep 22 07:12:27 the boxes with +'s at the bottom just need to go out of illume and be some desktop gadget Sep 22 07:12:31 same with launcher icons Sep 22 07:12:44 its simplelock screenclock too should be a module Sep 22 07:13:01 power management (suspend/shutdown, etc.) shoudl be come a powermanagement module on its own Sep 22 07:13:13 the keyboard in illume should be split Sep 22 07:13:23 the core vkbd handling rolled back into e17 itself Sep 22 07:13:32 and many other things Sep 22 07:13:58 give it time and it will grow a boatload of options Sep 22 07:14:52 is the plan to do those changes to illume or just to work on e and forget illume? Sep 22 07:15:33 illume is in e svn Sep 22 07:15:41 so things will shuffle about Sep 22 07:15:52 but you're running e and not illume on fso? Sep 22 07:16:29 illume is a module for e Sep 22 07:16:32 its just a plugin Sep 22 07:16:34 illume is not a wm Sep 22 07:16:39 it is not a different/separate app Sep 22 07:16:44 yesyes, but you're not using the illume module. :) Sep 22 07:16:45 it si just a module for e Sep 22 07:16:51 i am using illume Sep 22 07:16:56 oh Sep 22 07:16:59 why wouldnt i be? Sep 22 07:17:12 otherwise e would be exactly like on the desktop Sep 22 07:17:15 no different Sep 22 07:17:16 no vkbd Sep 22 07:17:26 no "top panel" Sep 22 07:17:31 no gsm signal gadget Sep 22 07:17:41 misunderstood from your earlier comment that you were using the pure desktop version Sep 22 07:17:57 so you have virtual desktops etc. visible through illume? Sep 22 07:18:03 yes Sep 22 07:18:10 neat Sep 22 07:18:23 i stuck the pager in the top row of gadgets (that slides out when u press the top bar) Sep 22 07:18:23 is your fso-based image public?-) Sep 22 07:18:31 nup Sep 22 07:18:35 i dont release it Sep 22 07:18:41 and its not built this way Sep 22 07:18:49 i had to change profiel and theme manually Sep 22 07:29:55 Halp! Sep 22 07:30:00 Python on Qtopia anyone? Sep 22 07:30:17 icanhazcheezburger? Sep 22 07:30:26 icanhashalpplez? Sep 22 07:32:08 <|FiLiP|> RayDar: what PalmOS GPS are/were you using ? Sep 22 07:46:33 |FiLiP|: GeoNiche http://www.RayDarLLC.com Sep 22 07:52:09 What can a mokoless guy do to help the community out? I have to wait until October, and I want to contribute. Sep 22 07:54:25 yabo: unfortunately.. looks like no one knows about python+qtopia Sep 22 07:54:36 aw.. Sep 22 07:54:56 which distros do opkg work on? Sep 22 07:55:03 or python.. Sep 22 07:55:08 openembedded Sep 22 07:55:23 tho thats mroe a distro-building thnig Sep 22 07:56:04 hm Sep 22 07:56:19 are there any more? Sep 22 07:56:28 i like how qtopia is easy Sep 22 07:56:46 how is debian? Sep 22 07:56:50 there are multiple distributions for the freerunner Sep 22 07:56:56 they all build from openembedded Sep 22 07:57:01 so they all use ipkg/opkg Sep 22 07:57:07 yabo: I am using FSO. It's interesting. Sep 22 07:57:23 oh yes? Sep 22 07:58:29 python works on fso or? Sep 22 07:58:38 im ready to try anything.. Sep 22 07:59:25 yabo: python is installed by default on FSO. I can't say whether it works or not. Sep 22 07:59:42 oh Sep 22 08:00:20 what about debian? Sep 22 08:00:44 dunno Sep 22 08:00:46 oh yes, how does FSO look btw? Sep 22 08:00:50 * yabo likes neat guis :p Sep 22 08:02:34 yabo: It's pretty, but spartan. To get an real work done, you gotta use ssh. Sep 22 08:02:50 on debian you can just apt-get python Sep 22 08:03:00 cool Sep 22 08:03:24 but Sep 22 08:03:28 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FSO Sep 22 08:03:41 is not very helping as far as installing fso goes Sep 22 08:04:12 is it like the others? get uimage and rootfs and use dfu-util to flash? Sep 22 08:04:25 yabo: most of the stuff in FSO is written in python so it most certainly works Sep 22 08:04:42 yabo: debian does not fit on flash Sep 22 08:04:45 u have to run off sd-card Sep 22 08:04:55 i want fso Sep 22 08:04:55 fso USES python for the phone framework Sep 22 08:04:57 so yes - it works Sep 22 08:05:07 yabo: Yeah. They make a lot of things super-secret. I would recommend getting the .jffs2 and .bin files from http://downloads.freesmartphone.org/fso-testing/images/ and flashing them with dfu-util Sep 22 08:05:18 oki, thanks Sep 22 08:05:40 fso-image-om-gta02.jffs2 Sep 22 08:05:43 is the most recent one? Sep 22 08:05:49 yuppers Sep 22 08:06:05 get the uImage.....bin at the bottom too Sep 22 08:07:15 okies, thanks a bunch Sep 22 08:14:09 will the openmoko charge when off? Sep 22 08:14:16 err freerunner? Sep 22 08:26:46 meh Sep 22 08:27:00 no enough time to flash it now Sep 22 08:27:06 takes like 10min to install rootfs right? Sep 22 08:28:22 http://dfu-programmer.sourceforge.net/ does this have anything to do with dfu-util? Sep 22 08:28:46 since dfu-util is in openmoko svn, i'd guess they are different projects. Sep 22 08:46:34 w00t, compiled powertop Sep 22 08:46:53 anybody ever tried using it? Sep 22 08:50:43 Is powertop like sloppypartybottom? Sep 22 08:51:23 shall i google the word? :)) Sep 22 08:59:05 whoah, 9 hits! Sep 22 08:59:20 however, it has more in common with this http://www.lesswatts.org/projects/powertop/ Sep 22 09:01:27 gotta go Sep 22 09:13:19 Are sms's stored on the flash or SD cart? Sep 22 09:13:42 on qtopia/om? Sep 22 09:14:22 ...or on the sim :) Sep 22 09:14:51 If they are stored on the sim.... I cannot find an option to move them around (or backup to sim) Sep 22 09:15:00 but sim would be good.. so I can format/upgrade Sep 22 09:15:26 I didn't foundout how store sms on sim, and contacts also... ( Sep 22 09:15:46 contacts you just have to look into the Options menu :) Sep 22 09:15:51 (hint - select all) Sep 22 09:15:54 nods. Sep 22 09:16:00 sms i don't know, though :) Sep 22 09:17:23 leinir, thanks) Sep 22 09:19:56 this whole sms thing is a little annoying :( Sep 22 09:20:03 id love a export to xml thing. Sep 22 09:20:34 Shlee, As I tested, sms stored on sim my default. Sep 22 09:20:43 *by* Sep 22 09:21:49 * Shlee removes sim from phone and tests.. Sep 22 09:30:15 ok, qtopia sms's are stored on the flash... Sep 22 09:30:37 :( Sep 22 09:31:00 they put a sqlite db there Sep 22 09:31:05 i hate them for that Sep 22 09:31:30 They should move onto sd by default.. **makes a ticket** Sep 22 09:33:01 Shlee: why? Sep 22 09:33:41 so that people who forget to backup before reflashing don't loose their SMS database ... Sep 22 09:34:18 i think the reflashing is the problem :/ Sep 22 09:34:48 indeed - imaging reinstalling your Debian system every couple of days ... Sep 22 09:35:00 s/imaging/imagine/ Sep 22 09:35:00 rwhitby meant: indeed - imagine reinstalling your Debian system every couple of days ... Sep 22 09:35:42 Shlee, run "System Info" from Applications, and open last tab Sep 22 09:35:42 hmm, what controls when openmoko will charge from usb? it is connected to usb charger now but stays at 84% Sep 22 09:35:48 named "sim" Sep 22 09:35:54 i grepped frameworkd source code and it doesn't mention charging much Sep 22 09:36:00 you will see, that sms stored on sim, *also*. Sep 22 09:36:14 /sys/devices/platform/s3c2440-i2c/i2c-adapter/i2c-0/0-0073/charger_type says 'charger 1A mode 1A' Sep 22 09:37:09 i have seen this before, 84% is somehow magical here Sep 22 09:39:12 * rwhitby tests whether "make qemu" still works ... Sep 22 09:39:20 Remove the by default and replace with - if perferable. Sep 22 09:39:29 /sys/devices/platform/bq27000-battery.0/power_supply/bat/status says 'Not charging' Sep 22 09:40:47 preferable Sep 22 09:44:22 Hmm - openmoko daily testing image for gta01 doesn't work with qemu - it just immediately reboots to u-boot menu continuously Sep 22 09:44:38 let's try fso-testing ... Sep 22 09:50:51 Hello, I'm trying to play with debian on the Neo1973, can anyone suggest an audio player to use? I'm trying mpd with some frontends, but I'm still struggling to find how to use mpd, and I can't get a right click to shutdown my frontend. :) Sep 22 09:58:59 hello Sep 22 09:59:23 what happens if i remove sim and sd card while FR is running? which processes should i stop before? Sep 22 09:59:42 (i mean, FR is usb-powered) Sep 22 10:01:24 (Om2008.8) Sep 22 10:01:50 sd card should be unmounted Sep 22 10:02:09 also I suggest power off the gsm module. Sep 22 10:02:12 sledgeas: Unless someone states that hot-swapping this is not dangerous, I would suggest you not to try. But still, you should unmount the card, and stop the gsm power. Sep 22 10:02:17 ok, the qtmail application includes a qtopia_db.sqlite on the flash.. this should atleast let you backup the sms from a Qtopia release *hopefully* Sep 22 10:02:39 Can i use midi as ringtones on fso? Or does someone know a source for the monkey island theme in SID? If not i can allways convert it to mpp3, but would be cool if i would not need to :) Sep 22 10:03:41 max_posedon, thrashold: my Om(2008.~9) does not allow me to umount /media/mmcblk0p2 even -f, says device is busy, but i don't use any shells cd`ed into that dir. and which is the gsm daemon? `find /etc | grep gsm' gives nothing Sep 22 10:04:59 sledgeas, you can try find app, that used your flash with "fuser" or "lsof", but I didn't know is they included in Om(2008.~9) Sep 22 10:05:21 fuser exists Sep 22 10:05:51 fuser /media/mmcblk0p2 gives nothing :( Sep 22 10:08:27 max_posedon: .. Sep 22 10:09:02 * sledgeas opkg install lsof .... Sep 22 10:09:37 k, so i want to recompile kernel. Anyone share some directions? Sep 22 10:09:41 please? ^.^ Sep 22 10:10:25 lsof also gives nothing Sep 22 10:10:56 sledgeas, use lsof | grep "/media/mccblk0p2" Sep 22 10:11:40 If it return nothing, it mmcblk0p2 can be unmounted. Sep 22 10:11:54 yeah, thanks, worked ;) Sep 22 10:11:55 strange Sep 22 10:12:06 udhcpc locked on /media/mmcblk0p2/lib/modules ! Sep 22 10:12:12 where i keep my debian Sep 22 10:12:12 :) Sep 22 10:14:35 thanks, pal ;) Sep 22 10:14:47 now, what is the gsm daemon on Om2008.~9 ? Sep 22 10:17:18 it's qtopia's integrated gsm stack Sep 22 10:17:23 hi anyone got a phone from pulster these days? Sep 22 10:17:47 sledgeas, you shouldn't stop gsm daemon, I think Sep 22 10:17:55 just power off the gsm module Sep 22 10:25:57 are thos ethe latest images for my gta01bv4? http://downloads.openmoko.org/releases/Om2007.11/images/neo1973/ Sep 22 10:26:32 or can i use any gta02 rootfs jffs2 as well and pick just the uimage and u-boot from here? Sep 22 10:28:45 igor321: i got mine last week Sep 22 10:36:38 kth5: I was trying to compile my own with no success. Then I installed Debian and I'm happy. :) Sep 22 10:37:23 sakkara: from the 15.9. batch? Sep 22 10:38:51 kth5: latest images for gta01 are in fso-testing Sep 22 10:39:09 igor321: yes Sep 22 10:39:13 or downloads.openmoko.org/daily (but those are untested) Sep 22 10:39:27 sakkara: did they send you an email right before shipping? Sep 22 10:39:46 kth5: you can't use a gta02 rootfs Sep 22 10:44:33 hi! Sep 22 10:45:55 i've update the splash-screen, but now things wont boot, i have to manually go into NOR flash and choose boot Sep 22 10:46:09 cp ./home/root/Applications/qtmail/qtopia_db.sqlite ./media/card/sms.sqlite Sep 22 10:46:17 fffs Sep 22 10:46:51 it might not be the splash thats faulty, i installed debian and did something with the boot... Sep 22 10:47:40 igor321: yes, they did Sep 22 10:47:41 openmoko: 03marek * r4662 10/trunk/src/host/pye17/evas/ (Makefile evas.override): Sep 22 10:47:41 openmoko: remove gtk dependency Sep 22 10:47:41 openmoko: beautify makefile Sep 22 10:48:25 sakkara: thanks for the info, i paid and still haven't received that email, so i'm contacting them now Sep 22 10:51:24 igor321: when did you pay? maybe you're in the next batch... Sep 22 10:51:40 sakkara: 28.8. Sep 22 10:51:45 you? Sep 22 10:52:33 3.8. Sep 22 10:52:44 i see :) Sep 22 10:52:51 ^^ Sep 22 10:52:56 it ain't easy to get this phone Sep 22 10:53:01 yeah... Sep 22 10:53:28 openmoko: 03julian_chu 07org.openmoko.dev * r271411ec6e60 10/ (3 files in 2 dirs): [om-locations] Switch back to master branch Sep 22 10:53:32 but if you get it later, there will be more bugfixes :o) Sep 22 10:53:37 hey Sep 22 10:53:49 where did you guys ordered the phone from Sep 22 10:56:09 pulster.eu Sep 22 10:56:36 sakkara: yeah i know but i was anxious to play with it Sep 22 10:57:13 either the demand is really great or they're producing real small batches of them Sep 22 10:57:25 i placed my order 4 months ago! Sep 22 10:58:36 thrashold: rwhitby: thx for the info :) Sep 22 10:59:42 i ordered from golden delicious in germany Sep 22 10:59:53 they first sent to the wrong address Sep 22 11:00:01 then they got it back and sent it again Sep 22 11:00:01 igor321: yeah, i think the payment counts for pulster... Sep 22 11:00:07 it came in 2 days Sep 22 11:01:28 sakkara: yeah, i just couldn't pay sooner cause they didn't send me the "transfer details" mail before 25.8. Sep 22 11:01:34 i don't really mind Sep 22 11:01:46 just want to make sure they've received my payment Sep 22 11:02:09 as you said the more i wait the more bugfixer are out Sep 22 11:02:16 fixes* Sep 22 11:03:03 has anyone an idea as to how many gta02s have been sold? Sep 22 11:03:24 igor321: >1K Sep 22 11:03:30 hm, they didn't send you a payment recieve mail? Sep 22 11:03:40 sakkara: nope Sep 22 11:03:52 igor321: about 700 I think through the main store - who knows through other stores. Sep 22 11:03:53 that's my main concern Sep 22 11:03:57 i got mine 2 days after payment... Sep 22 11:04:17 maybe there was a problem Sep 22 11:04:31 can i upgrade from 2008.8-update to 2008.9 with opk? or do i really need to flash the eintire rootfs? Sep 22 11:04:40 sakkara: but you said you paid on 3.8. and got it on 15.9. ? Sep 22 11:05:24 got my FR on 15.9. Sep 22 11:05:28 SpeedEvil: why are they producing such small quantities? can't they outsource or something Sep 22 11:05:43 they told me, i will get it with the 15.9. batch Sep 22 11:05:51 igor321: They have the capacity Sep 22 11:06:14 igor321: I guess it's that they don't want stuck with unsold ones so they're being cautious. Sep 22 11:06:15 sakkara: so you got the mail two days later? Sep 22 11:06:44 SpeedEvil: i feel they're a bit too cautious, as i've ordered my fr 4 frickin months ago Sep 22 11:07:35 Smaller batches means that they have to recall fewer units if something should be amiss Sep 22 11:08:50 not very businessy, i guess the gta02 is still development model Sep 22 11:09:00 igor321: yes, mail 2 days after payment... Sep 22 11:09:02 i hope they play it differently with gta03 Sep 22 11:09:34 While developing it has to be that way. Sep 22 11:09:40 sakkara: just sent them an email, hope they were busy and didn't notice, cause it says confirmed on my banks site Sep 22 11:10:07 sakkara: Where did you order from? Sep 22 11:10:23 Daramarak: yeah, i guess terms like "mass production" have confused me Sep 22 11:11:44 hi Sep 22 11:12:02 igor321: They also might be unsure how many units to produce before the market is saturated. Sep 22 11:13:17 Daramarak: i'm sure they are, but making batches of 500 or less is VERY conservative, like i've said, i made my order 4 months ago Sep 22 11:14:03 igor321: They might have underestimated how popular this unstable gadget would be. Sep 22 11:14:44 max_posedon: how do i power off the gsm module? lsmod gives out only ipv6 Sep 22 11:15:01 sledgeas, from qtopia or openmoko? Sep 22 11:15:07 om2008.~9 :) Sep 22 11:15:25 Daramarak: they seem to have underestimated the unstable is fun crowd ;) Sep 22 11:16:05 slaxxin, just in settings, where you can power on/off wifi/gps/etc. Sep 22 11:16:24 ok gotcha ;) autocomplete :) Sep 22 11:17:06 max_posedon: it does not exist.. only wifi, bt, gps.. Sep 22 11:17:21 i need to power off gsm Sep 22 11:17:29 igor321:Yeah :) In this forum you got 2 categories, people complaining about not getting their FR soon enough. And the other half have received it, and cannot get it to work. Amazing how the second group doesnt seem to discourage the first. Sep 22 11:18:04 Daramarak: amazing indeed :) Sep 22 11:18:40 sledgeas, hm.. right now I'm using qtopia, May be I don't remember exactly how to do this in openmoko. In Qtopia in Devtools it is just a "application". Sep 22 11:18:54 Mm. Sep 22 11:19:19 igor321: You got yours now? Sep 22 11:19:26 sledgeas, You can try check the wiki, may be there you can find "echo"-command to turing gsm off. Sep 22 11:19:46 * sledgeas looking Sep 22 11:19:48 Daramarak: nope, i'm in the first category Sep 22 11:20:01 hope it won't be 5 months :) Sep 22 11:20:51 TAsn: do you still hear the robo voice? Sep 22 11:20:56 sledgeas, root@fic-gta01:~$ echo "1" > /sys/bus/platform/devices/neo1973-pm-gsm.0/power_on Sep 22 11:21:20 (this is for power on, now I think you easy find out how power off) Sep 22 11:22:01 igor321:Me too, have to wait until the 20th of October, but Pulster threw in a pouch and headset as a compensation. Sep 22 11:22:53 max_posedon: found at the same time as you :) i hope this has turned the gsm subsys off entirely, as to any operations to sim are cancelled.. Sep 22 11:22:57 Daramarak: of OCTOBER? damn.... you see, the batches are really incredibly small Sep 22 11:23:04 lindi-, yes. Sep 22 11:23:10 even opened a bug. Sep 22 11:24:01 lindi-, hehe that's a bit out of the blue, what made you think about it? Sep 22 11:24:03 TAsn: searching for robo voice at bugs.openmoko.org did not find it Sep 22 11:24:26 i thought it's fso related so i put it in their trac Sep 22 11:24:35 didn't even know about bugs.openmoko ;] Sep 22 11:24:39 i will look there. Sep 22 11:25:21 TAsn: http://trac.freesmartphone.org/search?q=robo+voice&wiki=on&changeset=on&ticket=on does not find anything either Sep 22 11:25:48 igor321: why don't you just cancel your order and get it from a reseller that has them in stock? Sep 22 11:26:00 lol Sep 22 11:26:01 Tig|: already paid Sep 22 11:26:06 i didn't call it robo voice there Sep 22 11:26:11 it's distorted voice Sep 22 11:26:11 ;] Sep 22 11:26:37 http://trac.freesmartphone.org/search?q=distorded+voice&wiki=on&changeset=on&ticket=on => No matches found. Sep 22 11:26:55 igor321: ask them to refund it if they can't get it to you in a reasonable time, 5 months is ridiculous imho when you could go to https://www.truebox.co.uk/trueboxportal/index.php?wk=OpenMoko and get one today Sep 22 11:27:33 #151 Sep 22 11:27:41 search for distorted Sep 22 11:27:43 I turn the USB to hostmode, and when I type lsusb on the device, it hangs. There is nothing connected to the USB. What's causing this? Sep 22 11:28:08 That's on Debian and ASU, on Neo1973 Sep 22 11:28:16 TAsn: ok so no extra info yet Sep 22 11:28:22 TAsn: we need to figure out how to record a sample call Sep 22 11:28:23 lindi-, nope Sep 22 11:28:29 lindi-, ;] Sep 22 11:28:41 i wish i had another phone that can record. Sep 22 11:28:51 Tig|: i don't even think that a refund is possible, and the price is really low with them, so i think i'll be waiting some more Sep 22 11:28:57 TAsn: we could do it internally Sep 22 11:29:08 lindi-, i think there's an app for my symbian phone. Sep 22 11:29:21 lindi-, we could, but we don't know how ;] Sep 22 11:29:40 TAsn: zhone shows 0 as signal level now and i hear the voice Sep 22 11:31:01 now it even says "No Service" Sep 22 11:31:23 the robo voice? Sep 22 11:31:26 yep Sep 22 11:31:26 or a regular voice Sep 22 11:31:30 i c. Sep 22 11:31:36 well i also get it when i have full signal. Sep 22 11:32:27 cya Sep 22 11:32:34 i gtg, i have a test now. Sep 22 11:32:38 wish me luck. ;] Sep 22 11:33:05 So I must have power on the USB, for it to work? Sep 22 11:34:44 thrashold: probably Sep 22 11:34:54 thrashold: and the ohci module loaded Sep 22 11:35:23 OK, so I have to make another cable then... And find a mobile source of 5V... Sep 22 11:35:45 When I provided 5V it didn't hang.. Sep 22 11:37:02 thre: you got gta01? Sep 22 11:37:07 ra: Sep 22 11:37:19 SpeedEvil: Yes Sep 22 11:37:33 just checking Sep 22 11:44:02 I just wanted to turn my Neo into a remote shutter controller for my camera :) But it seems I can't do it without an external power supply :) Sep 22 12:01:20 Can I turn the screen orientation without restarting X? I could in Om2007.X:) Sep 22 12:02:09 FDOM has application that can do it. Sep 22 12:03:12 thrashold: xrandr -o Sep 22 12:05:14 Well, thanks. :) Unfortunately that doesn't seem to work in Debian, will have to research this :) Sep 22 12:05:59 weird, i just flashed the latest release image with uboot and uImage on my gta01 and it seems the touchscreen doesn't work. it makes the click sound when it get's hit by the stylus but doesn't do anything Sep 22 12:06:30 Hi! is anyone here involved with the OM GSM developement? was was trying to find out about the meaning of some parameters returned alongside the cell information Sep 22 12:07:27 gregdude, which ones? Sep 22 12:07:59 Daramarak: pulster.de Sep 22 12:08:45 hklein, the time_alignmnt of Neighbour Cell Information Sep 22 12:09:15 thrashold: Debian uses fbdev instead of accellerated xglamo server. Sep 22 12:09:27 sorry, dunno, maybe related to GSM time slots, or the hysteresis to not switch forth and back between towers Sep 22 12:09:33 thrashold: xglamo isn't ready for primetime on debian yet. Sep 22 12:10:01 just i cannot seem to find anything in the documentation anywhere, maybe it has a different name usually... Sep 22 12:10:44 i try to map the GSM cells with the OM, and trying to use all available info for the triangulation.... Sep 22 12:11:05 akriegisch: I see, thanks :) Sep 22 12:12:01 i don't think the recieved field strength alone is enough, probably.... Sep 22 12:14:34 gregdude: you only get the align of the cell you're logged into Sep 22 12:14:40 gregdude: you can't force it to switch Sep 22 12:15:59 SpeedEvil: i'm not trying to force to switch. I know the "tav" (timing advance) is only for the serving cell, but with 550m resolution that's not helpful in a city Sep 22 12:16:30 gregdude: you know of at%EM... Sep 22 12:16:38 SpeedEvil: the Time Alignment is a parameter returned for the 6 closest cells, and I was wondering of it's meaning Sep 22 12:16:41 gregdude: you get a filled table of stuff? Sep 22 12:16:46 gregdude: dunno Sep 22 12:17:07 SpeedEvil: yeah, wiki's your friend, know all the codes, but not all their meaning. ;) Sep 22 12:17:07 gregdude: there are leaked docs on the chipset. Sep 22 12:17:18 gregdude: but not the firmware in that chipset. Sep 22 12:17:53 http://www.xkcd.com/ Relevant cartoon is relevant. Sep 22 12:18:19 SpeedEvil: that is line 9 in AT%EM=2,3 Sep 22 12:18:30 yeah, totally :)) Sep 22 12:18:32 gregdude: yes - that Sep 22 12:19:01 SpeedEvil: so if you wanna find the location of a tower what would you do? Sep 22 12:19:33 gregdude: I would guess that it's the offset from this stations timeclock the recieved signal of the other stations. Sep 22 12:19:43 gregdude: to enable rapid switching. Sep 22 12:19:53 gregdude: however - I don't know. Sep 22 12:20:19 gregdude: your problem then is you dont' know the time accurately at the other stations - so you can't do anything with the info. Sep 22 12:20:32 gregdude: what might be inetersting is comparing FRs in identical locations. Sep 22 12:21:01 SpeedEvil: FR? Sep 22 12:21:24 FreeRunner Sep 22 12:22:09 SpeedEvil: sure :) (i got all phone codes in my head now) Sep 22 12:22:47 SpeedEvil: so phones that are connected to the same network, but with different timing? Sep 22 12:23:05 gregdude: see what the commonalities are. Sep 22 12:24:06 SpeedEvil: yeah, that would show better how the network works.... Sep 22 12:25:31 SpeedEvil: if you have only one, though, how would you find the positions? Recording a lot of cellID/signal/GPS position combos, all over the place and try fit them? Sep 22 12:25:50 gregdude: http://www.geocities.com/gsmmobilereport/gsmradiolink.htm - Time Alignment section Sep 22 12:27:28 it allows the BTS to control the timing advance of the mobile station, ensuring that all signals from all mobile stations arrive at the BTS in the correct timeslots irrespective of the propagation delay of each mobile station Sep 22 12:28:01 rwhitby: cheers, i think i stumbled upon this one before... yeah, the timing advantage you get in AT%EM=2,1, and it can be 0-63 Sep 22 12:28:23 yep, 63 corresponds to 35km - the max range of a GSM cell Sep 22 12:28:51 rwhitby: the Time_Alignment is only listed for the neighbouring cells, and I recorded up to 4936.... Sep 22 12:29:55 it's probably only listed for cells that have received a RACH from the phone Sep 22 12:30:17 rwhitby: the timing advantage would be useful, but in the city you have so many cells that usually none of them goes above 0 (>550m).... Sep 22 12:30:52 yeah, only good for long distance locations, and you need to know where the towers are anyway to use it Sep 22 12:31:55 rwhitby: I was hoping that Time_Alignment is something similar too and could be used to locate the towers, but since I have no clue what the number means.... :) Sep 22 12:33:09 I don't have my GSM physical channel specs handy, but you could probably match it up with something in there. Sep 22 12:34:27 been through almost everything i can think of on the 3GPP website (that is refefenced from the wiki) but still no luck... 05.10 should have the syncronization Sep 22 12:45:49 Does the intereference from the SD slot ruin the GPS if I have an external antenna attached? Sep 22 12:46:08 no Sep 22 12:46:28 no, it works just fine Sep 22 12:54:27 what is that qpe process on OM2008 ? Sep 22 12:54:33 it eats lots of CPU Sep 22 12:54:50 slowing down the whole phone Sep 22 12:55:35 beni_: qtopia classifying files on your sd card Sep 22 12:55:49 there's details on the mailing list and wiki about how to stop it Sep 22 12:55:54 some Storage.conf file I think Sep 22 12:57:52 i just killed that rpocess *G* Sep 22 12:58:44 hi does gprs work on 2008.9 ? Sep 22 13:07:29 suspend/resume seems to work more reliably now on my phone. Sep 22 13:07:31 cool Sep 22 13:46:44 beni_: sounds great, that have been one of the major annoyances of the people on the channel Sep 22 13:53:55 Daramarak: yes, i was very annoyed too Sep 22 13:54:05 but unfortunately i found some issues. Sep 22 13:54:15 after a few cycles i dont have SSH access anymore Sep 22 13:54:28 currently i cannot investigate further since i have no terminal installed Sep 22 13:54:36 i try to get ssh working so i can install one Sep 22 13:54:47 but even after battery out/in i cannot log in. Sep 22 13:55:03 i get a password dialog and then the connection hangs Sep 22 13:55:48 someone knows if tangogps has a bug tracker online? Sep 22 13:56:21 hey, is it possible to use Qtopia apps with the FSO image? Sep 22 13:56:24 freesmartphone.org: 03ainulindale 07libframeworkd-glib * r7b5afc2fc30a 10/src/ (frameworkd-glib-dbus.c frameworkd-glib-dbus.h): Applied quickdev error handling patch for dbus internal errors. Thanks quickdev ! Sep 22 13:56:24 freesmartphone.org: 03ainulindale 07libframeworkd-glib * r7b5afc2fc30a 10/src/ (frameworkd-glib-dbus.c frameworkd-glib-dbus.h): Applied quickdev error handling patch for dbus internal errors. Thanks quickdev ! Sep 22 13:57:10 milestone 3 that is Sep 22 13:57:12 and now: Sep 22 13:57:13 beni@gargamel:~$ ssh moko Sep 22 13:57:13 ssh: connect to host 192.168.0.202 port 22: No route to host Sep 22 13:57:47 yamitenshi: you can install them but things like the dialer will not work Sep 22 13:58:05 because they don't know how to talk to the framework Sep 22 13:58:07 beni_: check if the device on the host machine is still up Sep 22 13:58:19 beni_: if you unplug the usb cable the device dissapears Sep 22 13:58:37 Tig|: no problem, it's just that I've recently switched to FSO, and I'm working on an IRC client for my FR written with Qtopia, and it would be a shame to see all that work go to waste :) Sep 22 13:58:45 the device comes up correctly. Sep 22 13:58:56 well that should work Sep 22 13:58:56 seems that the phone has some problem to route packages back Sep 22 13:58:58 besides, I just prefer developing with Qt/Qtopia over GTK+ or EWL Sep 22 13:59:11 yamitenshi: well a qt app should work Sep 22 13:59:17 i try a reboot Sep 22 13:59:23 beni_: you sure dropbear is running on your fr? Sep 22 13:59:54 yamitenshi: it is only things that talk to the hardware (gps accelerometers gsm etc) that need modifying Sep 22 14:00:09 ah, okay :) Sep 22 14:00:23 bipak_: yes, it used to run. I cant check if it is still running, since om2008 has no terminal installed by default. Interesting is also that the battery-loading icon didnt change if i unplug the cable Sep 22 14:00:44 Tig|: do you by any chance know if it's possible to cross-compile regular Qt apps somehow, or do I really need to use Qtopia? Sep 22 14:01:33 yamitenshi: you don't need to do that, you might need to install the qt libs from the feed (if they are not already installed) but then your app should just work :) Sep 22 14:01:58 beni_: I mean the interface on your PC Sep 22 14:02:17 yamitenshi: the short cut I would use is just install the qtopia datebook or something like that and it will pull all the required qt stuff needed to make your app work :) Sep 22 14:02:53 Tig|: and how exactly does the cross-compiling process work? qmake compiles for my pc by default, so I guess I need to specify I'm cross-compiling somehow... Sep 22 14:03:15 well, that was phrased wrong, but I think you know what I mean :P Sep 22 14:03:31 maybe something in the makefile generated by qmake? Sep 22 14:03:48 yamitenshi: I am afraid I don't have any cross compiling experience here, someone else might be able to help :) is there no info on the wiki? Sep 22 14:04:25 nope, just for Qtopia, but that's a bit of a different story Sep 22 14:04:34 bipak_: yes, the usb0 interface on my pc is up and configured. Sep 22 14:05:21 ok Sep 22 14:05:26 ok, now i unplugged usb+battery. booted completely up. waited some minutes. connected usb. and can log in again Sep 22 14:05:37 something was hanging on the FR.... Sep 22 14:05:44 :( Sep 22 14:06:15 sometimes the "locking" of the screen also does not work properly Sep 22 14:06:17 (aux) Sep 22 14:06:19 I don't think porting from Qt to Qtopia is that much work, but I have absolutely no experience with Qtopia, and it would be nice to be able to test the app on my PC and then just cross-compiling once it works without having to port it Sep 22 14:06:32 i think this is the case if the CPU is loaded heavy Sep 22 14:08:00 i dont lock it that often Sep 22 14:08:14 i lock it with going into suspend ;) Sep 22 14:08:41 is there anyw ay to capture input values from the touchscreen? Sep 22 14:09:20 i'm having issues like described above: sound when i touch somewhere but no reaction whatsoever Sep 22 14:09:38 anyone using xfce+matchbox on debian? how do I close an app? Sep 22 14:10:18 bipak_: i need to lock it if i do GPS stuff Sep 22 14:10:20 jave: i am but i haven't even got close to that stage :( Sep 22 14:10:34 then i lock it, let the display dim and store it in my pocket while it traces GPS routes Sep 22 14:10:41 kth5: how long did you get? Sep 22 14:11:00 I rather like it, but there are some issues Sep 22 14:11:04 beni_: ah ok Sep 22 14:11:20 s/long/fat Sep 22 14:11:20 i got it to boot up but it doesn't react to any of my clicks onscreen :) Sep 22 14:11:22 s/long/far Sep 22 14:11:46 I've never ever got GPS working... Sep 22 14:12:08 meaning to check that out soon. Sep 22 14:13:36 what does qpe do? Sep 22 14:13:42 what benefits does it bring? Sep 22 14:15:22 does it speed up documents loading? Sep 22 14:28:54 A real simple question: I just installed OM2008.9 and I don't know how to shoutdown applications from the interface? Sep 22 14:30:01 jmichel: top menu, in lower left part of it you will have "remove" Sep 22 14:35:19 On one of my three computers, "ifconfig usb0 192.168.0.200" works beautifully. The other two say "SIOCSIFADDR: No such device" and "usb0: unknown interface" What can I do? Sep 22 14:36:37 mm: install the correct kernel drivers Sep 22 14:36:50 make sure the modules are loaded correctly Sep 22 14:36:58 mm, just reconnect usb Sep 22 14:37:25 * mwester notes that we're a very helpful bunch of folks on this channel. ;) Sep 22 14:37:56 By "reconnect usb" do you mean physically reconnect the cable, or do something in software? Sep 22 14:38:16 when i use xtscal to calibrate the touchscreen all i get is: ts_calibrate: determinant is too small -- 0.000000 Sep 22 14:38:22 mm, first one, "physically reconnect" Sep 22 14:38:25 then it goes back and starts over Sep 22 14:38:27 mwester: hi. do you know if the echo patch(the one to add noise reducing comand) has made it to table? Sep 22 14:38:35 *stable Sep 22 14:38:35 I need sometimes do this. Sep 22 14:39:04 Just tried that - made no difference. Sep 22 14:39:25 viq: thx Sep 22 14:39:55 mm, then install corect kernel drivers) Sep 22 14:39:59 The 2008.9 is giving me issues with the screen turning off (backlight atleast) and not being able to awaken the screen until its suspended... Sep 22 14:40:02 anyone else? Sep 22 14:40:41 admiral0: that patch/fix is a user-space issue; it's up to each firmware image to note when and where they added the fix (or not). :( Sep 22 14:41:56 mwester: maybe i'm too tired but i didn't understand Sep 22 14:42:51 Ran "modprobe CDCEther" "modprobe usbnet". They look OK. (Kernel is 2.4.31) But it makes no difference. Sep 22 14:42:53 You asked if the echo fix is in stable -- I'm pointing out that the echo fix is not a kernel patch, and thus it is up to each firmware team to add it. Sep 22 14:43:14 I don't think any of the firmware teams can claim "stable" as an attribute of any release yet. Sep 22 14:43:26 i know ^^ Sep 22 14:43:29 Certainly "stable" cannot apply to the 2008.x releases... Sep 22 14:43:57 admiral0: Anything based on the FSO Milestone 3 or above framework will include the echo patch, the SHR will naturally use it.. the Qtopia release has it as does the 2008.8 Sep 22 14:45:17 mm: 2.4? Where'd you find that? Use "ifconfig -a" to see if the iface has some other name under 2.4 Sep 22 14:45:59 ifconfig -a shows eth0, eth1 and lo Sep 22 14:48:13 Can you identify what hardware eth0 and eth1 are tied to (dmesg helps sometimes)? Could eth1 be the usb network? Sep 22 14:48:40 MrShleee, mwester: thanks Sep 22 14:50:57 mwester, eth0 and eth1 are RealTek cards Sep 22 14:51:31 Ah, ok. Then the kernel module that does the USB networking is not installed or not loaded. Sep 22 14:51:32 mwester, and my other computer that has the same problem is running Ubuntu with 2.6.20 Sep 22 14:52:10 mwester, That should be usbnet, which is installed. How can I test it? Sep 22 14:52:48 You'll also need the cdc_ether module Sep 22 14:52:58 Start by doing an "lsmod" and make sure they're loaded. Sep 22 14:53:07 mwester, CDCEther is installed as well. Sep 22 14:53:20 (modprobe should do that, but apparently not on your system) Sep 22 14:53:47 Then make sure that your neo or FR is running, and not suspended, and plug it in. Sep 22 14:54:05 Check dmesg to see what happened in terms of detection. Sep 22 14:54:27 Use "lsusb" to see what's on the usb bus and look for the id for the cdc_ether. Sep 22 14:54:44 Yes, I have tried the FR many times. I was, at first, making the mistake of having the FR at the NOR boot menu, but now it is properly booted in Om 2008. Sep 22 14:55:30 * mwester bites his tongue so as not to make any wise cracks about "properly booted" and Om 2008 in the same sentence. Sep 22 14:56:46 lsusb has a line "Bus 004 Device 004: ID 1457:5122" which is the FR. So that seems OK. Sep 22 14:57:29 FR? Sep 22 14:57:55 FR = FreeRunner Sep 22 14:58:02 ohh :) Sep 22 14:58:54 mm: what does dmesg say? Sep 22 14:58:57 Yes, "FR" puzzled me for a while yesterday. Sep 22 15:00:24 nice, now I got a titlebar in matchbox windows! Sep 22 15:00:28 font engine, read drive ? :) Sep 22 15:00:32 er, rear Sep 22 15:00:35 front Sep 22 15:00:36 ffs Sep 22 15:00:46 The interesting thing is that this device "is not claimed by any active driver". Sep 22 15:00:47 sigh Sep 22 15:01:31 mwester: i'd say debugmessages Sep 22 15:04:00 mm: that's the best clue so far. There's a table of USB ids built into each module, and apparently your USB id is not detected. Doublecheck if cdc_ether is listed in "lsmod" Sep 22 15:04:51 where can i fetch a current epdfview opk? Sep 22 15:05:15 Yes, CDCEther is mentioned in "lsmod" Sep 22 15:05:27 mm: unplug, replug? Sep 22 15:06:16 mm, hm, Does your FR now booted in linux? not just in U-boot? Sep 22 15:06:19 unplug, replug makes no difference, but it is mentioned in /var/log/messages Sep 22 15:06:45 (lsusb doesn't show me any info about FR, but I can successfully ping him) Sep 22 15:06:58 yep yep Sep 22 15:07:05 Yes, FR is booted in Linux, and it did connect to my third computer (an EEE) when plugged in there. Sep 22 15:09:31 so, in what cuantity are these phones produced? Sep 22 15:09:46 *quantities Sep 22 15:14:01 Interestingly, I now have this working on my Ubuntu 2.6.20 machine. Maybe the answer is to get around to upgrading, but I would much prefer to solve this as is. Sep 22 15:16:00 * RayDar starts round two of the GPS/GPRS/NFS wars. Sep 22 15:21:58 When you plug in a USB device, how does the appropriate module know to claim the device? Sep 22 15:22:41 alias Sep 22 15:28:02 I bet someone could make a lot of money by selling an external charger for these batteries Sep 22 15:28:20 hi, only want to say that i ordered the invisible shields on 16 and they arrived today, so 6 days later without any payup for the shipping Sep 22 15:28:40 ok Sep 22 15:28:51 raynet: not really. Sep 22 15:29:01 and if anyone needs a code, i got two with my order (only one is for bernt cause he gave me onE) Sep 22 15:29:04 RayDar: it's not really especially cheap to do low-volume chargers. Sep 22 15:29:09 * RayDar tries to recover from yet another fully drained battery Sep 22 15:37:58 where can i find some good alsamixer settings? Sep 22 15:39:27 The only good alsamixer settings I have are on my desktop. Sep 22 15:41:43 max_posedon ?? Sep 22 15:41:48 mwester ?? Sep 22 15:43:39 hm..., mm, show dmesg|tail plz. Sep 22 15:45:33 Does anybody can compile current version of qemu? ( svn co https://svn.openmoko.org/trunk/src/host/qemu-neo1973 ) Sep 22 15:45:34 usb.c: USB disconnect on device 00:10.0-1 address 2 Sep 22 15:45:34 hub.c: new USB device 00:10.0-1, assigned address 3 Sep 22 15:45:34 usb.c: USB device 3 (vend/prod 0x1457/0x5122) is not claimed by any active driver. Sep 22 15:46:47 I think you should update your kernel. Sep 22 15:47:58 Yes, I think I should. But first I will search the internet to see if I can understand this a bit better. Thanks anyway. Sep 22 15:55:42 Is it possible to change the screen orientation in om2008.9? Sep 22 15:55:57 Not using the accelerometer, but manually Sep 22 16:03:31 KenSentMe: Try to search for Tap/Un-tap (in the FDOM) Sep 22 16:03:52 KenSentMe, xrandr? Sep 22 16:04:03 OdyX, fdom? Sep 22 16:04:22 Fat and dirty Openmoko Sep 22 16:09:59 hi Sep 22 16:14:17 TAsn: i have verified that the robo voice issue is not hardware problem Sep 22 16:27:08 lindi-, i know it's not. Sep 22 16:27:18 robo voice doesn't occur when im in gtk Sep 22 16:27:21 there i get echo ;] Sep 22 16:29:17 Does anyone know how to get a GPRS connection with FSO milestone 3? Sep 22 16:30:27 RayDar, there are instructions in the wiki Sep 22 16:30:33 though they did not work for me. Sep 22 16:33:51 TAsn: I have tried http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/GPRS_FSO -- doesn't work. I have also tried http://kerneltrap.org/mailarchive/openmoko-community/2008/8/2/2793894 -- almost works Sep 22 16:36:02 OK. I got that second one working. Sep 22 16:43:26 TAsn: i am trying to debug this now Sep 22 16:45:05 What's wrong with the wifi.... it has the higest ping ever Sep 22 16:48:57 fredrin: tcpdump Sep 22 16:49:22 Guys, have you been able to record sound on the freerunner? Whatever I do to the mixer on mine ends up in silence. Even in gsm calls. Sep 22 16:51:51 berkus: have you looked at the audio_subsystem page? Sep 22 16:54:51 lindi-: i believe i looked at all audio related pages, but probably missed something, let me recheck Sep 22 16:55:39 There is no page titled "audio_subsystem". Sep 22 16:56:13 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo_Freerunner_audio_subsystem this one? Sep 22 16:56:49 partition: :X Sep 22 16:57:22 lindi-, cool, let me know. Sep 22 16:58:34 berkus: i read the neo_1973_* version Sep 22 16:58:56 where do you guys recommend buying from to get a phone the fastest to the USA? does the direct store ship from China or the US? Sep 22 16:58:58 yes, that one I read inside out and through actually Sep 22 17:06:05 berkus: did it make sense? ;) Sep 22 17:09:14 not too much, but i figured what controls to tweak and that didn't make any difference. this is what's getting recorded - http://berkus.madfire.net/neo/file1.wav Sep 22 17:10:26 lindi-, I don't have enough time to work on it today, though if you find out how to record or you know anything new, please tell me. Sep 22 17:14:03 do the debian distro for the Neo have its own irc channel? Sep 22 17:14:55 yea, #openmoko-debian on freenode Sep 22 17:15:17 nemik: thanks Sep 22 17:15:29 does anyone know where the direct.openmoko.com orders ship from to the USA? Sep 22 17:34:18 berkus: in addition to the obvious mixer controls you might have to adjust "DAI Mode". Sorry, I can't give you any more details at the moment (don't have access to my FR) Sep 22 17:40:24 nemik: They should ship from somewhere in California. Sep 22 17:40:37 nemik: They used to ship from Freemont, but that may have changed. Sep 22 17:40:50 bricode: cool. thanks! Sep 22 17:42:36 i'm pretty sure it's still fremont Sep 22 17:44:18 nemik: Even though I work for Koolu, it's probably better for you to order from the Openmoko store. No import duties. Sep 22 17:45:13 yea, makes sense, seeing as koolu is in CA, no? Sep 22 17:45:54 nemik: That's where we're currently shipping from, yes. Sep 22 17:49:40 Amazing. I am now chatting here through my GTA01bv4 Sep 22 17:50:57 yay Sep 22 17:51:02 pidgin/? Sep 22 17:51:07 irssi? Sep 22 17:51:38 hey nemik Sep 22 17:51:39 :) Sep 22 17:51:52 hey! Sep 22 17:52:04 slaxxin, nemik: No. I am using KSirc on my laptop ->usb->NAT->pp0->Internet Sep 22 17:52:42 hey, what does a blinking red light mean? Sep 22 17:52:45 in the aux led. Sep 22 17:52:54 CTCP PING reply from slaxxin: 2 seconds Sep 22 17:52:57 nemik: how are you doing ? Sep 22 17:53:00 not bad Sep 22 17:53:14 nemik: you getting the FR ? Sep 22 17:53:21 AJuOnLiNE: i'm ok. considering buying one of these Sep 22 17:53:52 once I have the GPS going (gpsd & gllin), is there some simple way I can see the NMEA data? (cat /dev/gps) Sep 22 17:53:53 i know it'll be a giant time-sink and cause me considerable pain, but should be fun to play around with and i had some ideas for it Sep 22 17:53:59 nemik: nice. did you read about the project I am working on ? on the sahana ML Sep 22 17:54:31 AJuOnLiNE: no, i archive that list in gmail right away, not enough time to read all the entries. got a link? Sep 22 17:54:45 ah hang on Sep 22 17:55:54 nemik: pmed the link Sep 22 17:59:48 i installed om2008.9 but the opkg still uses om2008.8 dirs Sep 22 17:59:51 is this correct? Sep 22 17:59:58 RayDar_: Should be able to cat /dev/ttySACD1 Sep 22 18:00:12 RayDar_: unless you're using Debian. Sep 22 18:01:31 bricode: I am using FSO and I don't have a /dev/ttySACD1 Sep 22 18:02:33 RayDar_: My bad. Try /dev/ttySAC* Sep 22 18:04:43 finally got that darn bt headset to turn on Sep 22 18:04:58 bt headsets turn on! Sep 22 18:05:04 LOL Sep 22 18:05:40 stupid charger never got it above 1.5v (2.4 capacity) so i hooked it upto (the batt) a cordless phone charger's batt and it zapped it upto its max capacity Sep 22 18:06:24 now its back on its regular charger and powered up working Sep 22 18:06:32 bricode: Neither /dev/ttySAC0 nore /dev/ttySAC1 produce any results when I cat them. :( Sep 22 18:06:43 love my weller soldering station and multimeters Sep 22 18:06:59 a lesser man would of returned it Sep 22 18:07:27 raydar did you turn the gps on? Sep 22 18:08:09 are there any apps to play with accelerometers in debian? Sep 22 18:09:01 echo 1 > /sys/devices/platform/s3c2440-i2c/i2c-adapter/i2c-0/0-0073/neo1973-pm-gps.0/pwron Sep 22 18:09:06 somethin like that Sep 22 18:09:13 is it the same wifi driver in both QT, ASO and FSO? Sep 22 18:09:47 Sep 22 18:10:11 :( it sucks Sep 22 18:10:12 been reading through the mailing list stuff about the ventures of SPI wlan Sep 22 18:10:43 kd8ikt: any interesting info in the lists? Sep 22 18:11:49 eh nothing that i can report Sep 22 18:11:55 what's SPI by the way Sep 22 18:12:23 serial peripheral interface Sep 22 18:12:37 k Sep 22 18:12:59 should i have some extra config for using tangogps (using om2008.9) Sep 22 18:13:13 i get like 50ms ping on my local wlan :( Sep 22 18:15:11 Is it possible to attach the FR as an external usb drive to another computer, rather than networking? Sep 22 18:15:14 kd8ikt: Yeah. I have the GPS on and gpsd & gllin going. TangoGPS is reporting GPS lat/lon Sep 22 18:15:34 mm: in principle, yes. Sep 22 18:15:40 gllin? using a gta01 Sep 22 18:15:43 mm: I don't know if anyones done a howto Sep 22 18:16:10 kd8ikt: do you know if the Wifi driver is better in Debian? Sep 22 18:16:25 As is "in principle, principle and practice are the same, in practice they differ"? Sep 22 18:16:31 they all use the same AFAIK Sep 22 18:16:40 cause its the kernel... Sep 22 18:16:49 kd8ikt: Yessir Sep 22 18:17:08 I read the main issue with the wlan is it doesnt survive suspend Sep 22 18:17:09 kd8ikt: mmmkay Sep 22 18:17:28 which can be helped by using a modular build of the wlan driver Sep 22 18:17:30 kd8ikt: I am using a GTA01 Sep 22 18:18:08 jave: I've turned off suspend and streight after boot it stil have very high ping Sep 22 18:18:18 SpeedEvil Any idea what might be involved? Sep 22 18:18:21 ok Sep 22 18:18:30 I also read reporting wasnt very reliable Sep 22 18:18:42 I havent had any problem with wifi myself Sep 22 18:18:55 havent been able to use it much either Sep 22 18:19:20 i'm gonna try flashing fdom here in a sec Sep 22 18:19:30 I was pleased by fdom Sep 22 18:19:39 I'm running debien more though Sep 22 18:20:27 I'm playing with alsamixer Sep 22 18:20:45 anyone knows what the "ZC" means? Sep 22 18:20:57 like in Headphone Playback ZC Switch Sep 22 18:43:27 BLAHBLAH Sep 22 18:47:01 kd8ikt: yeah, I found it! /tmp/nmeaNP Sep 22 18:48:00 yay Sep 22 18:48:11 i think glin is responsible for that it rings a big bell Sep 22 18:48:50 yeah, that's where it spews nmea Sep 22 18:49:35 mjr: Great. I like spewed NMEA Sep 22 18:49:43 something i remember running across awhile back researching wtf gllin was then since i had a gta02 i quickly dropped it Sep 22 18:50:03 kd8ikt: gllin is a pain in the arse Sep 22 18:54:11 RayDar: gllin has other output modes. I would recommend using UDP or the PTY mode instead of /tmp/nmeaNP Sep 22 18:54:16 it si Sep 22 18:54:59 orz: Zero Cross. Sep 22 18:55:16 oh thanks Sep 22 18:56:26 one more: why does the first entry "headphone" even effect the speaker volumes? Sep 22 18:56:55 orz: More reference on ZC http://www.wolfsonmicro.com/uploads/documents/en/WAN0178.pdf Sep 22 18:57:09 ok Sep 22 18:57:53 orz: You'll also want to check out http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973_Audio_Subsystem . Some signals are combined depending on settings. Sep 22 18:58:11 yep, I was reading that one Sep 22 18:58:31 not sure if the whole thing is to difficult for me ... Sep 22 19:04:53 hi Sep 22 19:10:00 hi there. I found how to shyncronize openmoko-calendar with my pc but I don't seem able to find how to shyncronize qtopia-calendar with my pc. Any suggestion? pls Sep 22 19:10:39 faltantornillos, how do you sync openmoko-cal? Sep 22 19:11:11 inquiring minds want to know ;) Sep 22 19:11:48 UndrWater, indeed. Sep 22 19:11:56 TAsn I export my pc calendar as .ics, then I send it to the freerunner, to the ~/.evolution/calendar/local/system and I name it calendar..ics Sep 22 19:12:05 faltantornillos, ha Sep 22 19:12:10 that's not syncing Sep 22 19:12:13 well, that's not exactly shyncronize but it's pretty much what I need Sep 22 19:12:16 XD yeah Sep 22 19:12:21 that's hacking stuff together ;] Sep 22 19:12:32 well, shyncronizind will be the same but with a diff command Sep 22 19:13:01 faltantornillos, what happens if you change both? Sep 22 19:13:02 ;] Sep 22 19:13:04 XD yeep, but if you have both files and use diff you cand get the changes Sep 22 19:13:08 you are out of sync my man. Sep 22 19:13:34 rsync? Sep 22 19:13:53 over passwordless ssh...i think we did this with Zaurus once Sep 22 19:22:38 TAsn: updated info to #151 Sep 22 19:22:50 cool i will check. Sep 22 19:24:35 lindi-, man, you did some through research. ;] Sep 22 19:24:37 and fast. Sep 22 19:26:23 I just ran xephyr with matchbox, panel and the openmoko theme. Sep 22 19:26:31 However all fonts are extremely small Sep 22 19:26:39 What am I overlooking? Sep 22 19:30:30 Anyone notice that USB speed is faster than Wifi for some reason? ~1.1MB/s on USB, and only ~500-600K on Wifi. Sep 22 19:31:34 bricode, i noticed that usb speed is 200kbps Sep 22 19:37:35 usb 1.0 Sep 22 19:38:22 kd8ikt, so? it's supposed to be *that* slow? Sep 22 19:38:30 it's a fifth less than bricode Sep 22 19:38:41 s/less/of/ Sep 22 19:38:53 it's a fifth of bricode's Sep 22 19:38:59 a rewrite was needed ;] Sep 22 19:39:49 cant say i'm familiar with "bricode" Sep 22 19:40:13 Anyone notice that USB speed is faster than Wifi for some reason? ~1.1MB/s on USB, and only ~500-600K on Wifi. Sep 22 19:42:47 bricode: i get 750kB/s over usb Sep 22 19:43:14 wtf happened to 2007 i cant find it anywhere Sep 22 19:44:06 i only get 200+- Sep 22 19:44:18 kd8ikt, do you know Big Brother? Sep 22 19:44:18 also depends where you save the data Sep 22 19:44:23 he is the one to blame. Sep 22 19:44:26 ;] Sep 22 19:44:29 he's watching you! Sep 22 19:44:34 if its to the SD card well you'll get yet another bottleneck Sep 22 19:44:49 lindi-: how is debian/FR support going? Sep 22 19:45:04 alsmost makes getting a cardreader for the sd feasible Sep 22 19:48:23 hello, where are stored the web certificates in the openmoko 2008.9 distribution? Sep 22 19:49:01 tried /etc/ca-something? Sep 22 19:49:07 i'd like to add the ones from rootCA or the ones from my e-mail so ssl would work...because a user reported that ssl worked with minimo...but on my mail it crashed(should be because there is no cert for it) Sep 22 19:50:03 nyu, i'll install a browser and try...but aren't the certificate system-wide? because i see nothing in ca-something Sep 22 19:50:22 Gnutoo: depends on the browser, I think Sep 22 19:50:27 nyu: working on frameworkd bugs right now Sep 22 19:50:30 ok Sep 22 19:50:30 in debian they are Sep 22 19:50:43 lindi-: how usable is it? Sep 22 19:51:16 I'm contemplating dual-boot Sep 22 19:51:28 the chroot hack is not practical Sep 22 19:52:39 nyu: aren't you a developer? ;) Sep 22 19:55:49 lindi-: a developer with no time Sep 22 19:56:09 in FR land I'm just a user :-P Sep 22 20:01:06 hello Sep 22 20:01:16 I'm trying to get sidplay2 to work on debian Sep 22 20:01:27 but it complains on missing /dev/dsp Sep 22 20:01:44 so I try to install oss-compat, but that complains on missing modules. any hints? Sep 22 20:02:32 jave: try running it with aoss Sep 22 20:02:48 oops now it worked Sep 22 20:02:53 weird Sep 22 20:03:39 yay, c64 goodness! Sep 22 20:08:30 how do i convert stuff to sid? Sep 22 20:08:41 i really can't find a to sid converter. Sep 22 20:11:50 in newbie with sid stuff so I dont know Sep 22 20:12:30 btw how does charging the fr actually work? why does the fr need to be booted? Sep 22 20:12:45 can this be hw hacked? Sep 22 20:14:10 jave: the wiki should have a link to the PCF50633 user manual. It will give you all of the details about charging. Sep 22 20:14:20 ok Thanks Sep 22 20:14:49 I'm having increasingly more fun with the device Sep 22 20:14:56 from a rough start Sep 22 20:17:41 The charger circuitry in the PMU can operate when the FR is off, but this can lead to violations of the USB standards (like drawing >100mA from an un-powered hub) Sep 22 20:18:18 ok I suspected something like that Sep 22 20:19:38 now to get zhone to play sid ringtones in debian... Sep 22 20:21:18 TAsn: You can't convert stuff to SID, like you can't convert to MOD or MIDI... but http://hvsc.c64.org/ may have something to your liking Sep 22 20:21:33 thanks. Sep 22 20:23:43 does anyone here has a decent gtkrc for the moko? Sep 22 20:49:23 hmm whattodo if graphical package installer just says "installing" all day long Sep 22 20:49:34 sure I can kill assassin but... Sep 22 20:50:20 TAsn: it's not really possible to convert PCM to sid Sep 22 20:50:32 TAsn: why would you ever want to do that? Sep 22 20:50:38 yeah i saw kirun's response ;] Sep 22 20:50:48 i didn't :P Sep 22 20:50:48 lindi-, too lazy to fix fso to run oggs? Sep 22 20:50:48 ;] Sep 22 21:14:31 joerg the hw guy quit Sep 22 21:14:35 that's too bad Sep 22 21:15:06 lindi-: convert PCM to sid? Sep 22 21:15:19 how do you convert OGG to etch? ;-P Sep 22 21:23:32 Hey Sep 22 21:23:47 hoy Sep 22 21:23:50 I am encoding a 170MB/20min movie for my openmoko according to mencoder -o -ofps 13 -vf scale -zoom -xy 240 -af channels=1:0:0:1:0 -oac lavc -ovc lavc -lavcopts acodec=libmp3lame:vcodec=h263p:autoaspect=1:vbitrate=300:abitrate=32 . the orig movie is WMA. as a result i get a sound not seeking preoperly (i get Skipping frame while encoding) Sep 22 21:23:59 my accelerometer seems to be off. cat /dev/input/event2 doesn't output anything. How do I enable it? Sep 22 21:25:09 sledgeas: try -mc 0 -ni options Sep 22 21:25:35 moo---: trying .. Sep 22 21:27:55 did anyone succeed enabling mplayer -vo glamo ? (http://unadventure.wordpress.com/2008/06/08/accelerating-in-my-pocket) Sep 22 21:27:58 any binaries to share? ;) Sep 22 21:29:02 Hi, anyone using tangogps on FSO? Sep 22 21:29:02 sledgeas, cg-clone git://repo.or.cz/mplayer/glamo.git Sep 22 21:29:08 from the link you gave us. Sep 22 21:29:34 TAsn: already doing it. but it's the source code. what build/make environment do i have to make on my x86 gentoo for this to compile? Sep 22 21:29:36 gregdude: I have used it in the past Sep 22 21:30:08 moo---: -mc 0 -ni didn't work (after seek sound still resets from the beginning) Sep 22 21:30:16 sledgeas, openmoko.org/ToolChain Sep 22 21:30:19 gregdude: it should just work :) Sep 22 21:30:21 or something like that. ;] Sep 22 21:30:39 thanks TAsn Sep 22 21:30:43 Tig|, i know it is modified compared to the official release, it's using dbus now.... Sep 22 21:30:54 sure thing. Sep 22 21:31:10 Tig|, the thing is, that I wanna hijack the input stream, and supply my own (generated) location info.... Sep 22 21:31:17 Tig|, you are the now who explained me about dbus magic the other day, right? Sep 22 21:31:28 TAsn: probably :) Sep 22 21:31:33 Tig|, ;] Sep 22 21:32:00 gregdude: you might still be able to specify a different gpsd IP address and feed it in that way Sep 22 21:32:22 Tig|, have a test GSM-location program, and wanna use fake NMEA sentences to display them in tangoGPS..... Sep 22 21:32:23 I am not sure how it is modified Sep 22 21:32:43 gregdude, you can always install the old one Sep 22 21:33:13 Tig|: :) yeah, but i also wanna keep this one, when i'm not "testing" Sep 22 21:33:31 i mean, TAsn... Sep 22 21:33:34 gregdude: best place to ask is probably on the tangogps.org site as I am sure the developer must use something similar when coding Sep 22 21:33:55 i c. Sep 22 21:34:02 gregdude, you can do one of the two Sep 22 21:34:06 install the old tango Sep 22 21:34:12 and install fso-gpsd Sep 22 21:34:18 oops Sep 22 21:34:28 i mean you can read fso-gpsd's source Sep 22 21:34:41 bah Sep 22 21:34:45 i don't know what i mean Sep 22 21:34:53 i just mean that there's a package for debian Sep 22 21:34:57 called fso-gpsd Sep 22 21:35:11 yeah, it rings a bell.. Sep 22 21:35:17 that translates gps data from fso to gpsd or something like that ;] Sep 22 21:35:27 anyhow, it's getting late and im going to sleep. Sep 22 21:35:42 cya. Sep 22 21:35:43 thanks, anyway... Sep 22 21:35:45 :) Sep 22 21:35:59 hope i helped ;] Sep 22 21:36:34 on the tangogps site they seem to wash their hands of anything related to the FSO-modified tangogps.... i'll look around some more, though Sep 22 21:36:46 TAsn: helping people on here would set a dangerous precedent :) Sep 22 21:37:13 gregdude, they sure do. Sep 22 21:37:25 that's not related to them what so ever iirc. Sep 22 21:37:30 Tig|, ;] Sep 22 21:37:37 gn. Sep 22 21:37:42 Tig|: i do help - on the few ocasions i can. ;) Sep 22 21:38:31 gregdude: I am only kidding :) Sep 22 21:38:50 i think #openmoko is much more helpful than most other related channels. (i thought so;) Sep 22 21:40:09 night night. Sep 22 21:40:20 zogg_: toodle pip Sep 22 21:49:13 How can you make another icon on the main screen on om2008.?* Sep 22 21:49:51 I thought you just had to make a .desktop file and put it in /usr/share/applications/ Sep 22 21:50:02 But the main screen isn't refreshing directly Sep 22 21:50:08 <[Rui]> hi Sep 22 21:50:22 <[Rui]> anyone here manages projects.openmoko.org ? Sep 22 21:50:33 <[Rui]> does it support greylisting when it sends the activation link? Sep 22 21:55:02 dolf1074: that should be all.... which 2008.? are you using? 2008.8 upwards it worked for me without any problem... Sep 22 21:55:27 I'm using 2008.9 updated Sep 22 21:55:45 I'm now trying a restart and hoping the icon will appear Sep 22 21:55:48 how did you make your .desktop? Sep 22 21:55:57 with nano Sep 22 21:56:17 im trying to compile an openmoko project (mplayer+glamo), but after running om-conf glamo it writes Unknown parameter: --build=i686-linux; FATAL: oe_runconf failed. i followed everything OK from http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Toolchain Sep 22 21:56:41 dolf1074, try copy one of them with a new name - if that doesn't show up then there's a problem. Sep 22 21:57:02 gregdude: ok, but first have to wait till it boot :) Sep 22 21:57:04 dolf1074, otherwise if you have the new icon, just edit the info inside Sep 22 21:57:12 sure thing ;) Sep 22 22:00:06 copying another .desktop file works, so there something wrong with my own .desktop file. Thanks for helping. Will now look further into my wrong .desktop file Sep 22 22:00:52 glad it worked out. Sep 22 22:01:41 I typed type without a capital T, sight :( Sep 22 22:02:15 dolf1074: whoops :) everyone has done something like that :) Sep 22 22:02:19 yeah, all the small things :) Sep 22 22:02:39 yeah, I know. But it's working now, so I'm happy :) Sep 22 22:02:50 yay Sep 22 22:03:32 :))) bet we need a lot of enthusiasm Sep 22 22:05:34 I agree Sep 22 22:05:54 hello, i've installed linphone...then i made opkg upgrade to see if there were some upgrades because midori segfaulted...but it upgraded on the linphone repo...how do i get back...i removed the linphone repo and re-made an opkg upgrade...is it ok now? Sep 22 22:06:15 ps. I'm just learning packaging and I'm busy with packaging duke3d Sep 22 22:07:00 dlf1074, that should be nice... piss off the iPhone people in the office, that duke is something they will (probably) never have ;) Sep 22 22:07:23 I'm almost done, I only had to get the icon on the screen ;) Sep 22 22:09:55 anyone...if i have no response i go to sleep...i need sleeping... Sep 22 22:11:05 Gnutoo: response to what? Sep 22 22:11:11 Gnutoo: I think newer packages that where in the linphone repo will stay on your phone, because they have a higher revision number Sep 22 22:11:29 dolf1074, ok so how do i downgrade? Sep 22 22:12:21 Gnutoo: I would think either a lot of manual work or probably quicker to reflash Sep 22 22:12:28 -force-downgrade Sep 22 22:12:33 dolf1074, thanks Sep 22 22:12:40 opkg can downgrade? Sep 22 22:12:43 lawks Sep 22 22:13:18 just do opkg and you will see what opkg can Sep 22 22:13:29 it will give you a list of all the commands Sep 22 22:14:18 dolf1074: yes I know this :) had forgotten and it is getting late here :) Sep 22 22:15:05 dolf1074, does it work with upgrade? because it exit doing nothing...mabe my system is ok then Sep 22 22:15:34 you will have to look at the revision numbers, else you won't know Sep 22 22:15:51 opkg status ... :p Sep 22 22:16:26 * mwester wonders why people persist in doing opkg upgrade... it's rather like those religous devotees that mangle and mutilate their own bodies... Sep 22 22:16:26 ok Sep 22 22:16:49 mwester, because midori was segfaulting...i wondered if it was already fixed Sep 22 22:17:16 mwester: I prefer to update instead of to reflash and reconfigure everything Sep 22 22:17:17 So.... load shotgun, fire, .... aim. Sep 22 22:17:36 mwesterm, :) donno, "upgrade" feels good..... though, have to tell, "pacman -Syu" feels even better on Arch.... Sep 22 22:17:42 mwester: it's a but if it does not work and should be fixed Sep 22 22:17:58 s/but/bug/ Sep 22 22:18:12 Basically, opkg upgrade for a project that is in development is just taking a totally random chance, and hoing that whatever it is that randomly gets updateed will actually work, and work with whatever didn't get updated... Sep 22 22:18:29 lindi-: No. the project is not even in beta yet; it's not released. Sep 22 22:18:38 mwester: opkg? Sep 22 22:18:51 All firmwares. Sep 22 22:19:00 i'll look at it tomorrow...bye Sep 22 22:19:08 mwester: just software to me :) Sep 22 22:20:12 Are there midori users here btw? From a look at midori in a pseudo Xephyr-openmoko window it felt barely agreeable to use Sep 22 22:20:16 Suppose I go ahead and email in a "fix" for libc -- it looks good, so one of the OM folks commits it. OE builds it and puts in the feeds. You do an "upgrade", get the patched libc -- and discover that I failed to test it, and now no user space apps at all run on your phone. Sep 22 22:20:24 I wonder how people use it in real life Sep 22 22:20:25 That's where we are with Om. Sep 22 22:20:32 kalikiana: use what? Sep 22 22:20:53 mwester: then you just downgrade that package Sep 22 22:21:04 mwester Use midori, see message before Sep 22 22:21:05 mwester: therefor there is a difference between point releases and updated point releases Sep 22 22:21:12 lindi-: :) that's the point of me picking libc -- you can't, because libc is now broken. Sep 22 22:21:16 If you want something stable, stick to the point releases Sep 22 22:21:18 mwester, well, then it just needs a bit testing at the OM folks' side.... do people really commit something and put in the repo intested? Sep 22 22:21:29 gregdude: All the time!!! Sep 22 22:21:32 if you want the cutting edge and sometimes fail very hard, use the update Sep 22 22:21:38 mwester: with static rescue shell you can :) Sep 22 22:21:48 Which shell would that be, now? ;) Sep 22 22:21:53 mwester: and we could have automatic testing in qemu Sep 22 22:21:55 Oh! the one that isn't on the image! Sep 22 22:22:18 * mwester falls off his chair lauging about testing on qemu! Sep 22 22:22:26 Yeah, next year the first test would be done :D Sep 22 22:22:45 mwester, you scared me now... i'm surely such noob Sep 22 22:22:56 mwester: shouldn't be that impossible Sep 22 22:23:19 lindi: that isn't doable Sep 22 22:23:31 dolf1074: why not? Sep 22 22:23:47 Seriously, I agree that the so-called "stable" feeds should be better, but they really aren't yet. It's a big problem, and Om have pushed it off to the users to just "deal with it" and do the testing for them. Sep 22 22:24:05 mwester: there shouldn't be users, we should all be developers ;) Sep 22 22:24:10 first off all it very slow. Secondly we can't emulate gta02 properly. Thirdly you would require to many developers Sep 22 22:24:20 dolf1074: but broken libc would not depend on hardware Sep 22 22:24:26 lindi-: Then we should all know better than to do opkg upgrade without backups ;) Sep 22 22:26:49 cu Sep 22 22:27:11 mwester: dolf1074: debian piuparts would have catched this hyphothetical libc bug before it could ruin anybody's system Sep 22 22:28:07 yeah, but as I said. To little developers for putting the system up and making tests Sep 22 22:28:15 hi Sep 22 22:28:20 dolf1074: but piuparts already exists Sep 22 22:28:25 That would be a good idea to implement, IMO. Sep 22 22:28:33 i am new i need some help making a device Sep 22 22:28:34 dolf1074: and it's already used for libc Sep 22 22:28:44 for school project Sep 22 22:29:02 lindi: go and put the system up, we can all use the little bit help. Sep 22 22:29:31 Another thing that would really help would be to lock down the base software, and separate it from other parts. Om is getting pretty close to being able to do that, at least. Sep 22 22:29:42 dolf1074: no need, it's already in use :) Sep 22 22:30:11 lindi: that's perfect Sep 22 22:30:11 It would have to run on the host device, though, wouldn't it? Sep 22 22:30:33 mwester: on any armel system yes Sep 22 22:30:40 so qemu is easiest Sep 22 22:31:36 Except that a real FR or two would be much faster. I would expect that Om could come up with a handful that failed QA for the touchscreen or display, for example, and would be fine little devices they could have connected to the build machines... Sep 22 22:31:54 mwester: it's not that much faster Sep 22 22:32:12 multiple qemu systems are easier probably Sep 22 22:32:17 lindi-: it took almost 30 minutes for it to boot on my 2.4GHz P4 Sep 22 22:32:33 mwester: yep but compiling C code was only about 10% slower Sep 22 22:32:48 mwester: you'd boot them only once of course Sep 22 22:33:22 well, implementatin details, I guess. The real trick would be to get the project using such an automated test tool. Sep 22 22:33:33 lindi-: presumably not if you were testing stuff after a reboot Sep 22 22:33:51 Tig|: sure but we were wondering about hypothetical broken libc Sep 22 22:34:08 lindi-: fair enough :) Sep 22 22:34:45 But the other stuff the piuparts does would also be significant. There's a lot of things the package manager can inadvertently break. Sep 22 22:35:15 well I have to grab some zeds so night all :) Sep 22 22:37:28 mwester: yep Sep 22 22:40:09 hehe "zeds" Sep 22 22:44:29 kd8ikt, you around and bored? Sep 22 22:45:47 voila, I did it finally. dukd3d is packaged and can be installed on a om2008.* by doing opkg install http://alasal.be/openmoko/repo/duke3d_0.1.1_armv4t.ipk Sep 22 22:46:20 dolf1074: is the source available too? Sep 22 22:46:43 http://fz.hobby-site.org/om/duke-nukem-3d/ Sep 22 22:47:03 I've just packaged the contents created by him Sep 22 22:47:31 the binaries? Sep 22 22:47:59 the duke3d-openmoko.tar.gz Sep 22 22:48:12 blah, that'd never pass debian policy ;) Sep 22 22:48:23 who knows what trojans are inside :P Sep 22 22:48:39 yeah, but it wasn't for passing the debian policy Sep 22 22:48:54 it was just for me for getting to know packaging Sep 22 22:49:18 but usually packaking involves specifying how things are configured and compiled Sep 22 22:49:31 and specifying build and runtime dependencies Sep 22 22:49:54 there are 2 things you can package Sep 22 22:50:08 or you package the binary, or you package the binary with the source Sep 22 22:51:00 ./usr/lib/duke3d/COMMIT.EXE: MS-DOS executable, MZ for MS-DOS, LZEXE v0.91 compressed Sep 22 22:51:03 what's that doing there? ;) Sep 22 22:51:31 ask the porter Sep 22 22:51:51 but at least dependencies seem to be set Sep 22 22:52:21 duh, else that package would be worth nothing Sep 22 22:52:40 yep ;) Sep 22 22:52:56 now you can install duke3d with 1 simple command and you getting a free icon on you home-panel Sep 22 22:53:13 else you had to configure it all yourself and install all the dependicies Sep 22 22:53:17 and therefor I did it Sep 22 22:53:31 dolf1074: but when i hit a bug i can't "apt-get --build source duke3d" Sep 22 22:53:42 instead i have to google around to figure out how to build it :( Sep 22 22:53:53 i thought there were dsg-free duke3d sources that one could build and then use with just a plutonia.wad... Sep 22 22:54:08 dfsg-free, even Sep 22 22:54:10 did you try that with opkg and tangogps? I failed at that Sep 22 22:54:24 Wonka: i didn't know they were dfsg-free Sep 22 22:54:34 dolf1074: opkg doesn't do it afaik Sep 22 22:54:46 so * Sep 22 22:54:55 Wonka: these sources contain MS-DOS executables in them Sep 22 22:54:58 so *.ipkg packages can't have the sources Sep 22 22:55:31 So it's properly packaged. (I think) Sep 22 22:55:51 lindi-: i'd have to dig in the files of my last notebook to find the sources and in them the license... didn't shovel those over to this book yet Sep 22 22:55:58 dolf1074: you could have the bitbake recipe that builds it from source Sep 22 22:56:10 Wonka: maybe i'll just wait till it hits debian Sep 22 22:57:07 and I've I compile it directly on the freerunner. Why do I have to have a bitbake recipe Sep 22 22:57:20 I also don't have a bitbake recipe of any package of ubuntu Sep 22 22:57:45 dolf1074: it's just a way to automate it Sep 22 22:58:12 openmoko: 03werner * r4663 10/developers/werner/ahrt/host/tmc/lib/ (decode.py dxplore.py instrument.py): (log message trimmed) Sep 22 22:58:12 openmoko: Highlights: Sep 22 22:58:12 openmoko: - instrument debugging output is now configurable. Turn it all off with Sep 22 22:58:12 openmoko: instrument.debug = False Sep 22 22:58:12 openmoko: - added x-axis ticks (quick and dirty - needs more work) Sep 22 22:58:12 dolf1074: it's how almost all opkg packages are built afaik Sep 22 22:58:16 openmoko: - CMD52 write decoding didn't print the value written (it showed up in the Sep 22 22:58:18 openmoko: R5 response, though) Sep 22 22:58:24 yeah, maybe next time. But I'm not that fund on the mokomakefile. It's a little bit slow Sep 22 22:58:58 dolf1074: btw, did you really compile it? i thought you said you just copied the binaries Sep 22 22:59:09 http://www.3drealms.com/downloads.html Sep 22 22:59:24 and there were people who made it run on linux Sep 22 22:59:52 lindi-: nope, I didn't compile it, but apparently someone did, else we hadn't the binaries Sep 22 22:59:58 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duke_Nukem_3D#Software_projects_working_with_the_GPL.27ed_source_code Sep 22 23:00:56 lindi-: GPL is certainly DFSG-free :) Sep 22 23:01:06 lindi-: http://icculus.org/duke3d/ Sep 22 23:01:16 Wonka: yeah but it's only upstream that says it's GPL :) Sep 22 23:01:24 but yeah, I'm going to sleep. Sep 22 23:02:25 i'm trying to fix fso bug #151 Sep 22 23:03:35 lindi-: what do you mean with "only upstream"? Sep 22 23:04:23 Wonka: there are many cases where upstream has made mistakes Sep 22 23:05:10 lindi-: 3d realms has released the sources under GPL - i don't see any risk there Sep 22 23:05:28 Wonka: for example KDE distributed smiley icons that couldn't be used commercially :-) Sep 22 23:11:39 How are you gentlemen? Sep 22 23:11:44 and Chocky Sep 22 23:12:19 hey dave... how goes it? Sep 22 23:12:54 Lint! Sep 22 23:12:57 It goes Sep 22 23:12:59 Slowly Sep 22 23:13:22 i know that feeling Sep 22 23:13:26 -_- Sep 22 23:13:35 Lint, in other news, I was going over some of my trip data from the buses Sep 22 23:13:49 news indeed Sep 22 23:13:51 My max speed was 72.8mph Sep 22 23:13:57 Holy crap? :D Sep 22 23:14:06 Who knew they could go that fast :P Sep 22 23:14:09 is that what liblate/nextbus said, or your gps? Sep 22 23:14:22 gps Sep 22 23:14:38 Not sure I'd trust either liblate or nextbus on that... no offense ;) Sep 22 23:14:43 ah... well, gps can be unreliable in calculating speed, depending on the algorithm Sep 22 23:14:57 I can assure you it's quite accurate. Sep 22 23:15:32 hehe, well, i wouldn't trust either liblate or nextbus myself :) Sep 22 23:15:38 So far I've probably driven about 4-5k miles with multiple freerunners Sep 22 23:16:11 I can verify it has only rarely failed in reporting accurate ground speed. Sep 22 23:16:18 Position might suck Sep 22 23:16:20 but speed is fine :D Sep 22 23:16:30 lint :P Sep 22 23:16:37 heart of the source? :P Sep 22 23:16:43 You just gotta believe! Sep 22 23:16:58 i just finished a working beta of a game Sep 22 23:17:04 haha, if only it was that easy to get your code working :P Sep 22 23:17:11 does it work? on the freerunner?' Sep 22 23:17:12 are they properly glued to your front bumper? Sep 22 23:17:17 How does it compare with Net? Sep 22 23:17:22 balrogkun ^^ Sep 22 23:17:37 Dave: its you!! Sep 22 23:17:39 the game i wrote is a snake game Sep 22 23:17:43 IT'S ME! Sep 22 23:17:50 How are you Wonkamen? Sep 22 23:17:56 Lint, hahahahaha Sep 22 23:17:59 You finally did that? Sep 22 23:18:04 yeah Sep 22 23:18:04 (not that it'd be difficult at all) Sep 22 23:18:09 make it multiplayer? :D Sep 22 23:18:10 oh, fine :P Sep 22 23:18:13 Dave: What you say!! Sep 22 23:18:13 * Dave cackles Sep 22 23:18:28 that'd be doable, but a lot of effort and probably not much fun Sep 22 23:18:31 Dave: Move 'ZIG'! Sep 22 23:18:33 right Sep 22 23:18:37 mov zig,fgj Sep 22 23:18:39 Dave: For great justice. Sep 22 23:18:48 :) Sep 22 23:18:49 might be more fun if you didn't let eachother's snakes collide, but instead were both vying for the same apples Sep 22 23:18:58 fight fight fight! Sep 22 23:19:00 apples? Sep 22 23:19:03 snakes don't eat apples! Sep 22 23:19:05 but bt would be a bit of effort Sep 22 23:19:11 you silly person, you! Sep 22 23:19:12 in the classic snake game they do :P Sep 22 23:19:15 hurr Sep 22 23:19:17 Yeah I know :P Sep 22 23:19:22 but they should eat windows logos! Sep 22 23:19:23 :D Sep 22 23:19:25 or something Sep 22 23:19:34 maybe perl llamas for an added corny bonus? Sep 22 23:19:37 *hiss* Sep 22 23:19:38 moko developers. Sep 22 23:19:41 YES Sep 22 23:19:42 and, before anyone makes and bad jokes, it is not written in python Sep 22 23:19:45 CONSUME SEAN Sep 22 23:19:54 aaargh. icculus' duke3d is not 64bit clean, it seems Sep 22 23:19:55 lint, aww Sep 22 23:19:57 C? Sep 22 23:20:00 yeah Sep 22 23:20:05 I already approve :) Sep 22 23:20:41 Is the source on devjavu, so I can berate you further? :D Sep 22 23:22:23 it is on there, along with the binary Sep 22 23:22:34 http://tehinterweb.com/snake-v1b.tgz is a tarball of source+bin Sep 22 23:22:53 woot Sep 22 23:22:59 all your source are belong to me! Sep 22 23:23:05 go go gadget freerunner! Sep 22 23:23:53 Lint, a friend of mine recently took it upon ourselves to recode some old, but very enjoyable closed source games and write new more modifiable and in some cases prettier versions of them Sep 22 23:24:08 which will also have the aim of being mobilized if possible Sep 22 23:24:44 Some of which we will be incorporating multiplayer play, where none previously existed! Sep 22 23:24:48 It's interesting... Sep 22 23:25:00 that targetted for the FR? Sep 22 23:25:04 I figure it will be a slow, yet rewarding project. Sep 22 23:25:06 haha no :P Sep 22 23:25:09 that'd be fail Sep 22 23:25:20 but I'd hope to be able to play some of them on it Sep 22 23:25:28 Currently there are no reasons why not, just input might suck Sep 22 23:25:39 but for some, screen size is in fact appropriate, because of the sweet dpi Sep 22 23:25:44 well, we shall see... classic games certainly are overdue for a comeback Sep 22 23:25:50 Indeed! Sep 22 23:25:51 :D Sep 22 23:26:24 And a friend of mine even showed me some strange small games I'd never even heard of before, which turned out to be really cool, if certain additional functionality or complexity was added to them! Sep 22 23:26:35 So there is a lot of tantalizing potential. Sep 22 23:27:08 the real issue is dealing wth a UI that has no keyboard, and mouse clicks are kind of odd :P Sep 22 23:27:37 this snake game has a few issues, and map support is at the top of my todo list (which will be fun) Sep 22 23:28:03 but right now it's actually pretty complete feeling, has a proper ui, and an options menu to tweak settings Sep 22 23:29:53 oh snap! Sep 22 23:29:57 at some point i'm actually going to be forced to learn how to make ipk files, i fear Sep 22 23:29:58 does it use accelerometers? Sep 22 23:30:01 hahahaha Sep 22 23:30:10 lint, I can teach you :P Sep 22 23:30:16 it uses one... and you can choose which one in the options Sep 22 23:30:17 It's very simple. Sep 22 23:30:26 one? o_O Sep 22 23:30:28 yeah, i've unpackaged ipks manually, so i have an idea Sep 22 23:30:33 haha Sep 22 23:30:40 well yeah, what are you going to do with two? :P Sep 22 23:30:41 better yet, there should be a simple ipk maker! Sep 22 23:30:42 rofl Sep 22 23:30:52 I would totally do that to, just to be a dick :) Sep 22 23:31:00 I would ipkg my ipk maker, and post it. Sep 22 23:31:30 I've been hit with enough wtfparadoxes, it's time I gave one back :) Sep 22 23:31:32 i also need to make an icon and a desktop file :P Sep 22 23:31:48 Icon Icon Icon! Sep 22 23:32:00 May I submit one to you? :D Sep 22 23:32:13 haha I already have silly ideas in that department Sep 22 23:32:41 i have an idea for one, but if i feel my idea's been upstaged... Sep 22 23:34:04 oops? Sep 22 23:34:11 Sorry :P Sep 22 23:34:47 no, i mean if you have something that beats my idea, i'll go with it :P Sep 22 23:34:53 but i get to decide, hehe Sep 22 23:35:25 Woohoo! :P Sep 22 23:35:33 My enthusiasm has been redeemed! Sep 22 23:36:21 Disclaimed: Sorry to disappoint all you pyfreaks but no python was used in the making of this program! Sep 22 23:36:25 Disclaimer Sep 22 23:36:35 tard Sep 22 23:37:32 virus Sep 22 23:38:23 retard is a underused verb Sep 22 23:39:11 haha, indeed :P Sep 22 23:39:35 your library has been retarded due to your lack of focus and belief in your own abilities! Sep 22 23:39:52 focus perhaps :P Sep 22 23:40:41 :D Sep 22 23:40:49 Sure sure, your C abilities were never in question ;) Sep 22 23:41:18 Does anyone know what the default screen resolution is for Qtopia on the Freerunner? Sep 22 23:41:19 oh, they might me, just not in my own biased views :P Sep 22 23:41:20 Lint, perhaps you want to get in bed with me on this game idea I had. Sep 22 23:41:23 I'm sure it'd be hot. Sep 22 23:41:30 Or do I need to go check the xorg.conf file? Sep 22 23:41:39 and be the best and simplest implementation of the accelerometers. Sep 22 23:41:40 err, i missed your game idea Sep 22 23:41:46 haha Sep 22 23:41:53 I never stated it. Sep 22 23:41:56 sgrover, there is no X, and it should be vga/480x640 Sep 22 23:41:57 Though perhaps, several weeks ago. Sep 22 23:42:15 ieatlint: thank you. - wanted to create a custom background image.. :) Sep 22 23:43:42 Lint, pacman, using accelerometers! has it been done yet/before? it be jokingly simple, and I believe enjoyable an enjoyable exemplification for freerunner! Sep 22 23:43:57 yes, two enjoyables... apparently! Sep 22 23:43:59 :p Sep 22 23:44:30 yeah, that wouldn't be too difficult overall Sep 22 23:44:30 Dave: it's been done before - but on different platforms... Sep 22 23:45:09 the accelerometer based control for a game that is... Sep 22 23:45:10 right Sep 22 23:45:20 no, I was referring to pacman, specifically. Sep 22 23:45:29 Lint -- interested? ;) Sep 22 23:45:35 Perhaps I can diverge your focus, yet again! Sep 22 23:45:41 or, retard it? :P Sep 22 23:45:45 perhaps :P Sep 22 23:45:46 :x Sep 22 23:45:51 sgrover, i don't believe you Sep 22 23:45:53 Excellent! Sep 22 23:46:10 pacman with accelerometer control? that'd just be um... sooooo wrong.. :) for anyone who has played the original that is.. lol Sep 22 23:46:10 is pacman still copyright? Sep 22 23:46:33 ieatlint: just make different mazes, and characters... Sep 22 23:47:09 lint, who cares? Sep 22 23:47:14 We can always bootleg ;) Sep 22 23:47:19 Right Sep 22 23:47:33 I already have a new protagonist, if necessary :) Sep 22 23:47:39 In fact I'd rather use him, wakka wakka Sep 22 23:47:42 lol, yeah, use < for the character, and call it "greaterthanman" Sep 22 23:47:48 Pacman was always so lame Sep 22 23:47:53 as a character Sep 22 23:47:59 hahahaha Sep 22 23:48:14 Lint, I'm sure that'd go over well at your Moko group :P Sep 22 23:48:29 but the name is too long, and not catchy enough Sep 22 23:48:42 Mokoman? Sep 22 23:49:01 haha, I wonder if we could even use the Openmoko logo :p Sep 22 23:49:05 eh... anyway, i'll see Sep 22 23:49:08 Maybe have the guy inside spin Sep 22 23:49:13 haha oh man, Openmoko dubs!?!?! Sep 22 23:49:15 hahahaha Sep 22 23:49:20 i'm not up for starting a new project i which i'm the only real backer Sep 22 23:49:48 I could totally see some wigga sportin those next to me on teh embarcadero Sep 22 23:50:23 only real backer? -- what, you're questioning my ability to lead, direct, and on the off chance, code? :P Sep 22 23:50:51 i don't know your ability :P Sep 22 23:51:02 Oh really? Sep 22 23:51:11 never seen anything you've coded Sep 22 23:51:12 I guess I _have_ been hiding my credentials... Sep 22 23:51:17 (intentionally) :P Sep 22 23:51:24 no, i know where you work Sep 22 23:51:30 OH SNAP Sep 22 23:51:32 don't know your capacity :P Sep 22 23:51:32 He's onto me! Sep 22 23:51:35 * Dave runs for the hills Sep 22 23:52:00 i'm going to a social gathering at the company's sf office on october 4 Sep 22 23:52:18 Are you asking me out on a date? Sep 22 23:52:37 that depends, are you buying? Sep 22 23:52:38 * Dave laughs Sep 22 23:52:55 If it's there, then yeah, probably :) Sep 22 23:53:01 I tend to be very generous... :x Sep 22 23:53:11 As my collegues will agree. Sep 22 23:53:43 :P Sep 22 23:53:53 damn colleagues Sep 22 23:53:57 :P Sep 22 23:54:07 Anyhoo, hope your snake is able to eat his fill Sep 22 23:54:11 get me a job there and i'll buy you dinner :P Sep 22 23:54:14 oh man, that'd be pretty sweet Sep 22 23:54:15 hahahahaha Sep 22 23:54:24 Man, I think you'd need to offer me something more than that Sep 22 23:54:31 Maybe dinner for... a month? Sep 22 23:54:41 all your base Sep 22 23:54:45 i'd deman "all your base" Sep 22 23:54:48 demand Sep 22 23:54:51 hah, yeah, not sure if even on that salary i could afford it Sep 22 23:54:59 Raster, given your skillset, you probably would ;) Sep 22 23:55:07 lint, hah Sep 22 23:55:32 i demean all your base Sep 22 23:55:37 Lint, I have a funny story about a ghost bus, for later. Sep 22 23:55:55 Raster, all our keyboards are belong to us! Sep 22 23:56:03 And we are very gracious for it :) Sep 22 23:56:30 Oh, and your new designs look pretty damn nice - many are in anticipation of further greatness. Sep 22 23:56:58 Dave: i've been working on it... Sep 22 23:57:15 that plus some small tweaks to illume to make it work better witht he theme work Sep 22 23:57:18 nothnig major Sep 22 23:57:19 ... Sep 22 23:57:19 yet Sep 22 23:57:22 Nice! Sep 22 23:57:47 I think I am going to try to replace matchbox keyboard with the illume keyboard on 2007 later tonight. Sep 22 23:58:03 We'll see how things turn out... Sep 22 23:58:51 Dave, sounds hackish ;] Sep 22 23:59:01 You know it! Sep 22 23:59:17 i actually liked the matchbox keyboard, though I too ditched it for the illume (fso though) Sep 22 23:59:40 e feels rather strange, it feels like kde without qt ;] Sep 22 23:59:42 Yeah other than the horrid keymap/layout, it's nice Sep 22 23:59:50 but too small/unusable Sep 22 23:59:56 Dave, ;] Sep 23 00:00:01 can't you make it larger? Sep 23 00:00:07 well people did Sep 23 00:00:16 i know. Sep 23 00:00:17 but they disappeared and stopped supporting their serbian software? :P Sep 23 00:00:21 ;] Sep 23 00:00:24 i c. Sep 23 00:00:40 Dave, hey, what gtkrc do you have? Sep 23 00:00:44 ok, i've got to go Sep 23 00:00:44 and there was only one good english mapping that someone created, and then they disappered. Sep 23 00:00:44 *shrugs* Sep 23 00:00:44 damn poles Sep 23 00:00:44 since i can't find a decent one to use with my fso. Sep 23 00:00:49 Later Lintball Sep 23 00:00:50 cya dave Sep 23 00:00:51 :P Sep 23 00:00:57 ieatlint, night. Sep 23 00:01:05 Tasn, no idea, I don't use FSO. Sep 23 00:01:06 cya all Sep 23 00:01:06 (yet) Sep 23 00:01:13 Dave, it's the same gtkrc Sep 23 00:01:19 is yours yellow and bulky? Sep 23 00:01:23 hahaha Sep 23 00:01:24 *orange Sep 23 00:01:27 damn right! ;) Sep 23 00:01:31 damn. Sep 23 00:01:33 Isn't that how Openmoko rolls? ;) Sep 23 00:01:41 Dave, bulky yeah Sep 23 00:01:46 orange, i hope not. Sep 23 00:01:47 ;] Sep 23 00:01:50 I don't think yellow and bulky describes much Sep 23 00:01:57 Can you be more descriptive? Sep 23 00:01:57 where can I find an example of how to get printf("hello world\n"); to run on my neo? Sep 23 00:02:03 j/k though the 2007 gtkrc look awful. Sep 23 00:02:14 RayDar, every hello world app? Sep 23 00:02:37 RayDar, or are you talking about the cross compiling part? Sep 23 00:02:43 radar, write a simple C program? Sep 23 00:02:47 TAsn: Yeah sure, but there is this little step of compiling. Sep 23 00:02:51 Dave: Yes. Sep 23 00:02:53 then compile it with gcc? Sep 23 00:02:55 RayDar, openmoko.org Sep 23 00:03:02 look for toolchain Sep 23 00:03:05 in the wiki ;] Sep 23 00:03:07 that's about it. Sep 23 00:03:17 Tasn, what, the default layout? Sep 23 00:03:33 yeah. Sep 23 00:03:37 I'm not sure exactly which one you are referring to, since it changed a couple times from the original [pre-]release. Sep 23 00:03:39 the orange and bulky layout ;] Sep 23 00:03:47 Dave, the stock one Sep 23 00:03:52 Dave, can you please up yours? Sep 23 00:04:01 hehe up yours Sep 23 00:04:12 i need something to use, and my scroll bars are currently a pin size. Sep 23 00:04:14 RayDar, ;] Sep 23 00:04:43 please up mine? Sep 23 00:04:47 Post an image on scap? Sep 23 00:05:23 actually i was talking about the gtkrc Sep 23 00:05:30 Well gee, I just posted some screenshots a few days ago, but look, those beagle fuckers have spammed the hell out of scap already! Sep 23 00:05:34 though a preview picture can also be nice ;] Sep 23 00:05:34 oh, heh :P Sep 23 00:05:55 beagle? why does it sound familiar? Sep 23 00:06:03 Tasn, what version do you have? Sep 23 00:06:08 Beagle... Beagleboard? Sep 23 00:06:10 woof woof Sep 23 00:06:13 of what? Sep 23 00:06:13 ruff ruff Sep 23 00:06:25 * Dave barks orders at Raster Sep 23 00:06:26 gtkrc? on my fso, nothing Sep 23 00:06:29 iirc Sep 23 00:06:33 s/orders/polite feature requests/ Sep 23 00:06:35 on my gtk2007 the stock. Sep 23 00:06:44 tasn? o_O Sep 23 00:06:45 abraxa's gtkrc no longer exists. Sep 23 00:06:56 oh, I thought you were going to give me a version number :) Sep 23 00:07:06 Dave, like if i knew ;] Sep 23 00:07:17 just upload yours, please ;] Sep 23 00:07:20 heh Sep 23 00:07:29 yeah so anyhoo, boring orange stock is unappealing to you? Sep 23 00:07:34 i have to say... the kbd works nicer now... Sep 23 00:07:41 raster, what's now? Sep 23 00:07:48 Raster, your keyboard? is that even possible? Sep 23 00:07:49 fixed a small bug where if u didnt actually tap on a key it wouldnt use the closest one Sep 23 00:07:49 i mean is there an update for me to install? Sep 23 00:07:50 ;] Sep 23 00:08:03 raster - sweet! Sep 23 00:08:05 and now i forxed the min completion box size to be about a figer-press Sep 23 00:08:06 raster, ;] Sep 23 00:08:12 i can use the kbd while walking around Sep 23 00:08:21 raster, btw Sep 23 00:08:24 thats more than i can say for the stylus + kbd on my motorola Sep 23 00:08:25 i have a suggestion Sep 23 00:08:46 maybe giving the actual keys pressed as an option is a good idea Sep 23 00:08:53 i mean in the suggestion bars Sep 23 00:09:04 you will get the guesses and in the middle what you actually pressed Sep 23 00:09:17 TAsn: it is included Sep 23 00:09:24 raster, you rock ;] Sep 23 00:09:26 it just often is not what is "most likely: Sep 23 00:09:34 thus its often sorted off the edge of the list Sep 23 00:09:36 ie not visible Sep 23 00:09:42 raster, i c. Sep 23 00:09:53 press the top-left dict button Sep 23 00:10:04 and u'll get a list of matches and "exactly what u presse"D is always at the top Sep 23 00:10:13 raster, really? Sep 23 00:10:14 (so its an extra tap away basically - always) Sep 23 00:10:16 since when? Sep 23 00:10:17 yes Sep 23 00:10:21 since forever Sep 23 00:10:24 cool ;] Sep 23 00:10:36 this means only one thing. Sep 23 00:10:41 im the worst tapper ever Sep 23 00:10:47 oooh wait Sep 23 00:10:48 it has a bug Sep 23 00:10:51 cuz i never saw what i meant ;] Sep 23 00:10:55 actually no Sep 23 00:10:55 ? Sep 23 00:10:57 it doesnt Sep 23 00:11:01 :) Sep 23 00:11:04 :] Sep 23 00:11:13 if there are no dict matches Sep 23 00:11:18 you know this doesn't mean im not a bad tapper, right? ;] Sep 23 00:11:21 the list popup wont come up Sep 23 00:11:30 oh i c. Sep 23 00:11:31 but exactly what u typed is in the quick-match list anyway Sep 23 00:11:35 so its redundant Sep 23 00:11:39 yeah. Sep 23 00:11:54 so far the dict engine works fine for english Sep 23 00:12:01 its not good for other langs Sep 23 00:12:06 oh there's another bug btw. Sep 23 00:12:10 i think its utf8 and char matching stuff isnt quite right Sep 23 00:12:18 raster, not true Sep 23 00:12:22 but then there are other issues there that i shoudl solve anyway Sep 23 00:12:23 i used char matching with hebrew Sep 23 00:12:25 for the dict format Sep 23 00:12:31 hebrew? Sep 23 00:12:34 and it works great Sep 23 00:12:35 (i think) Sep 23 00:12:45 any of you planning to buy an android phone? Sep 23 00:12:45 it shouldnt be even able to DISPLAY hebrew Sep 23 00:12:56 evas has no rithg-to-left support Sep 23 00:13:00 my only problem (bug?) is that it won't let me use hebrew chars without dic match. Sep 23 00:13:08 raster, i know Sep 23 00:13:17 i see it other way around ;] Sep 23 00:13:34 though i changed some settings and installed some utf fonts Sep 23 00:13:44 so i can see hebrew though in reverse order. Sep 23 00:13:50 (and to be honest.. i've never had much push for it nor any help to do it so it sucks.. but until the right-to-left users push hard and help.. they wont really get much.. our own e devs who speak arabic.. dont like to use it - they prefer english (they are from lebanon) Sep 23 00:13:56 so even our own guys dont care :( Sep 23 00:14:20 but cool Sep 23 00:14:22 raster, to tell you the truth Sep 23 00:14:22 hebrew works Sep 23 00:14:25 witha hebrew dict? Sep 23 00:14:27 i don't like hebrew as well. ;] Sep 23 00:14:30 raster, yeah. Sep 23 00:14:30 hehehe Sep 23 00:14:34 wow Sep 23 00:14:35 only one problem though Sep 23 00:14:38 maybe i did get something right... Sep 23 00:14:45 i can't find a dic which isn't 5mb Sep 23 00:14:49 aaah Sep 23 00:14:52 its a bit slow eh? Sep 23 00:14:58 and 5mb dic makes fuzzing crazy Sep 23 00:15:05 yeah Sep 23 00:15:06 i tried setting fuzz to 15 Sep 23 00:15:09 it got faster Sep 23 00:15:16 though it wasn't that correct anymore ;\ Sep 23 00:15:20 and then it gets less "usable" Sep 23 00:15:23 yeah. Sep 23 00:15:24 ;] Sep 23 00:15:34 what u need is a dict WITH frequency info Sep 23 00:15:43 it supports it Sep 23 00:15:44 ie Sep 23 00:15:48 cat 20 Sep 23 00:15:50 dog 10 Sep 23 00:15:54 raster, i know. Sep 23 00:15:55 I 399 Sep 23 00:15:56 etc. Sep 23 00:16:06 i started to dev something like that a while ago Sep 23 00:16:09 it will record frequency of all words you use Sep 23 00:16:12 though i thought it may kill the sd. Sep 23 00:16:14 so your personal dict will begin to help Sep 23 00:16:27 kill the sd? Sep 23 00:16:34 will write too much. Sep 23 00:16:40 changing data all the time. Sep 23 00:16:41 oooh Sep 23 00:16:43 doesnt matter Sep 23 00:16:44 in the same place Sep 23 00:16:49 sd cards have wear leveling Sep 23 00:16:50 or should Sep 23 00:16:56 ;] Sep 23 00:17:15 anyhow good work ;] Sep 23 00:17:23 there's just that one bug i told you about Sep 23 00:17:25 i limit illume's kbd writes to every ummm... Sep 23 00:17:52 which is the fact that hebrew (utf8?) chars must be in "" which means guessing mode Sep 23 00:18:03 or they won't work. Sep 23 00:18:06 every 5 seconds Sep 23 00:18:18 raster, seconds? not buffer? Sep 23 00:18:33 *buffer get filled. Sep 23 00:18:46 so even if it didnt have wear levelling Sep 23 00:18:55 and the kernel WROTE to the sd card on every write done Sep 23 00:18:55 you will delay it's wear. Sep 23 00:19:03 (without any caching/buffering or delays) Sep 23 00:19:10 your sd card would last 15 years Sep 23 00:19:23 raster, thanks for the tender care ;] Sep 23 00:19:30 and that is at the last numebrs i saw many years ago that u'd get about 100,000 write cycles out of a flash cell Sep 23 00:19:42 i think these days its more like 1million+ Sep 23 00:19:46 so make that more like 150 years Sep 23 00:19:57 basically.. it's in the "who gives a crap" land :) Sep 23 00:20:13 raster, that's what they said about 32bit ;] Sep 23 00:20:32 oh, it's more than 40 years away Sep 23 00:20:37 dude = if u are STILl usng the same microsd-card in 15 years... i'll buy you a repleacement! Sep 23 00:20:38 :) Sep 23 00:20:39 "who gives a crap" Sep 23 00:20:45 raster, ;] Sep 23 00:20:47 thanks man. Sep 23 00:20:47 hmmm, what's with all the aperture science on scap (25-28) ? Sep 23 00:21:00 raster, i keep logs. Sep 23 00:21:03 hahahaha Sep 23 00:21:33 as such tho - these days u shouldnt need to care Sep 23 00:21:43 raster cool. Sep 23 00:21:44 config-illume-config Sep 23 00:21:46 as i said - i limit flushing personal dict changes to every 5 secs Sep 23 00:21:53 so it keeps them in ram only for that time Sep 23 00:21:59 actually i thought about implementing in sqlite Sep 23 00:22:03 which may force write Sep 23 00:22:05 since it's a db Sep 23 00:22:12 and that what made me think about that. Sep 23 00:22:16 it'd be nice Sep 23 00:22:24 raster, yeah, i get what you mean. Sep 23 00:22:30 also thats 5 secons of inactivity after typing Sep 23 00:22:50 Make them pause :) Sep 23 00:22:54 raster, btw, what's the main idea behind the e project? im just interested ;] Sep 23 00:22:57 slow down those thumbs, young man! Sep 23 00:23:03 while u are typing as long as u enter a word every 5 seconds it wont flush until the dict has had no changes made in 5 seconds Sep 23 00:23:10 i could lengthen that actually Sep 23 00:23:18 anyway as for bug needing your letter in quotes Sep 23 00:23:21 that is correct Sep 23 00:23:23 you need that Sep 23 00:23:26 same with ascii Sep 23 00:23:29 because it's multi byte? Sep 23 00:23:32 if the oputput is in quotes Sep 23 00:23:36 What's wrong with ASCII? Sep 23 00:23:39 it means its a string to be matched by the dict Sep 23 00:23:45 raster, i know. Sep 23 00:23:46 if tis no - its a direct keysym to output Sep 23 00:23:51 and bypass the dict Sep 23 00:24:01 i mean that if i don't use quotes with hebrew letters Sep 23 00:24:08 it won't type at all! Sep 23 00:24:10 sounds good Sep 23 00:24:20 Raster, is there a non-predictive version? Sep 23 00:24:22 no it wont Sep 23 00:24:22 the app won't get the types. Sep 23 00:24:25 as u need to provide keysyms Sep 23 00:24:26 or button to simply turn it all off? Sep 23 00:24:32 if its not in quotes Sep 23 00:24:33 or do we have to delete the dicts? -_- Sep 23 00:24:38 hcekc keysymdef.h Sep 23 00:24:40 raster, enlightenment ;] Sep 23 00:24:47 thanks. Sep 23 00:24:51 Openmoko: use terminal layout Sep 23 00:24:54 it doesnt output sttings Sep 23 00:24:56 just keysyms Sep 23 00:24:59 thus bypasses the dict Sep 23 00:25:13 raster, yeah, again, i got you. Sep 23 00:25:20 whoopee! Sep 23 00:25:22 TAsn: i designed it to be able to do both Sep 23 00:25:26 though maybe making a ' ' mode Sep 23 00:25:27 so u can declare a string Sep 23 00:25:36 whihc then that exact string becomes part of your composition Sep 23 00:25:37 which doesn't require a keysym is a good idea. Sep 23 00:25:43 if its a string it is in "" Sep 23 00:25:46 if its not in "" Sep 23 00:25:48 its a keysym Sep 23 00:25:54 ie a "named key" Sep 23 00:25:59 x has a bunch of them Sep 23 00:26:04 for cyrilluc, even japanese Sep 23 00:26:05 I wonder how literate raster is when typing on a phone. Sep 23 00:26:06 and other ones Sep 23 00:26:17 ie pretty much every keyboard map on the planet is covered somewhere Sep 23 00:26:21 raster, cool. ;] Sep 23 00:26:36 Openmoko: thats why there are multiple layouts. Sep 23 00:26:45 Openmoko: the idea of "Terminal" layout is just for that Sep 23 00:26:54 for temrinals where dictionary correction is nigh useless Sep 23 00:27:08 u choudl make a copy of the default layout withotu strings Sep 23 00:27:11 just keysyms Sep 23 00:27:15 it'd bypass the dict Sep 23 00:27:58 raster, one e related question if I may. What's the advantages you guys see in using the compiled configs instead of text and resources? Sep 23 00:28:14 dictionary correction could be useful on a terminal if the keyboard interacted with e.g. bash autocomplete Sep 23 00:28:57 TAsn: small, fast, users wont mess with them and thus cause us parsing engine headaches, recycles same code that loads theme-files and all other data files so its optimised really well Sep 23 00:29:10 it also allows us to trivially inline any data Sep 23 00:29:17 (eg images or audio) directly into the config Sep 23 00:29:22 theres a whole c api for this Sep 23 00:29:27 u say "load my config" Sep 23 00:29:33 and u get handed a data structure all filled in Sep 23 00:29:45 linked lists, hash tables, sturcts and sub-structs already filled in Sep 23 00:29:51 and it can do the reverse Sep 23 00:29:58 "see this data struct here... save it" Sep 23 00:30:14 and the struct will be blurted out with no further ado. Sep 23 00:30:25 raster, im not sure i can agree about the parsing engine Sep 23 00:30:34 since people can still mess with the binaries Sep 23 00:30:34 unknown_lamer: the dict would need toknow a bit more contect i think Sep 23 00:30:46 TAsn: they can Sep 23 00:30:47 assuming stuff on a computer is always a bad idea. Sep 23 00:30:48 but they tend not to Sep 23 00:30:58 because they look at it and go "fuck.. i dont know what to do!" Sep 23 00:30:58 raster, security-wise. Sep 23 00:30:58 :) Sep 23 00:31:08 oh Sep 23 00:31:11 the engine is "Safe" Sep 23 00:31:17 in that it checks for brokenness Sep 23 00:31:34 if ti finds any it aborts entirely and hands u a null pointer Sep 23 00:32:03 so basically any messing that doesnt produce a consistent correct blob will result in you being punted back to default config Sep 23 00:32:18 raster, cool ;] Sep 23 00:32:43 iuts just recycling engines we alreayd have Sep 23 00:32:53 never thought about the parsing engine headache, I knew it was runtime faster though i did not think about dev time Sep 23 00:32:56 as they were written for loading theme (edje) data Sep 23 00:33:02 raster, yeah. Sep 23 00:33:10 and they were intended to be fast, portable and "safe" Sep 23 00:33:18 dev time is important. Sep 23 00:33:28 (ie u download a theme - it cant exploit you - at worst it will give you an ugly/unusable ui) Sep 23 00:33:35 raster, it is a fast way to trasfer themes that's for sure. Sep 23 00:33:49 raster, which people may claim is worse than a security bug ;] Sep 23 00:33:57 sure Sep 23 00:34:03 j/k ;] Sep 23 00:34:10 but how does the code dtermine "unusable" ? Sep 23 00:34:12 eg Sep 23 00:34:15 black-on-black Sep 23 00:34:17 :) Sep 23 00:34:28 then people will use pics instead. ;] Sep 23 00:34:39 at that point i go "well... user beware" Sep 23 00:34:43 hehe ;] Sep 23 00:34:58 but really then such a theme is just annoyance-ware Sep 23 00:35:08 i know. Sep 23 00:35:10 as oppsoed to somethign that just sent your bank account details to some hacker Sep 23 00:35:19 or opened a root backdoor Sep 23 00:35:20 etc. Sep 23 00:35:21 ooohh, black on black would make things even more challenging ... =] Sep 23 00:35:33 i DON'T really think it's worse than a security hole ;] Sep 23 00:35:52 annoyanceware frankly is a price u pay for flexibility and the ability to just download a complete new look. Sep 23 00:35:57 though i think someone is calling me a wanking walrus right now. Sep 23 00:36:01 if u dont want annoyanceware Sep 23 00:36:07 only use things u really trust Sep 23 00:36:10 or never change theme Sep 23 00:36:13 or make your own Sep 23 00:36:14 :) Sep 23 00:36:19 or get one Sep 23 00:36:22 decompile Sep 23 00:36:32 review, and recompile Sep 23 00:36:35 sure Sep 23 00:36:39 we do have a preview mechanism Sep 23 00:36:49 om decided they dont want any of e's config dialogs Sep 23 00:36:52 but there is a preview Sep 23 00:36:59 it only displays wallpaper now Sep 23 00:37:05 but i do wnat it to preview other elements too Sep 23 00:37:14 just need to go create them in the preview and set them to the theme Sep 23 00:37:27 btw, is there a way to tell it to use a wallpaper form a specific location instead of a packed wallpaper? Sep 23 00:37:42 yup Sep 23 00:37:49 cool ;] Sep 23 00:37:51 again - all disabled Sep 23 00:37:56 (the gui bit)_ Sep 23 00:38:02 the actual code to do so is still there Sep 23 00:38:08 * TAsn doesn't care about gui. Sep 23 00:38:14 just all removed from your sight and ability to control Sep 23 00:38:15 all i think about is packages. Sep 23 00:38:27 u cant change it with a package Sep 23 00:38:29 its config Sep 23 00:38:43 and as such thus is stored in ~/.e/e/config/.... Sep 23 00:38:44 raster, i know, im talking about packing a config file Sep 23 00:39:03 raster, not in /usr/.../fso.edj? Sep 23 00:39:28 e can use any other .edj file for a wallpaper Sep 23 00:39:33 its in config Sep 23 00:39:38 by default it uses "no bg" Sep 23 00:39:42 which means the bg from the theme is used Sep 23 00:39:53 raster, oh i c, cool. Sep 23 00:39:58 now i get you. Sep 23 00:40:14 i've forced .edj files as e has no way to knwo if u want to scale, tile, scale to fill or fit, etc. the bg if its just a jpg or png Sep 23 00:40:26 .edj files encode all that info and much mroe Sep 23 00:40:34 they can point to ..jpg or .png files outside of the .edj Sep 23 00:40:51 Q: using QTopia. I ssh'd to the Freerunner and deleted an audio file. The media player still shows that audio file, but errors when trying to play it (of course). How do I fix this? Sep 23 00:40:52 that's what i was talking about. Sep 23 00:40:53 ;] Sep 23 00:41:01 e's wallpaper dialog lets u bropwse your current set of wallpapers and import jpg/png etc etc. image Sep 23 00:41:08 images (it generates the ,edj files for u) Sep 23 00:41:11 sgrover, remove that media playes cache? Sep 23 00:41:23 raster, i see you really like e ;] Sep 23 00:41:29 are you one of the founders? Sep 23 00:41:31 TAsn: sounds reasonable... um.. where is it, how to remove it?? :) Sep 23 00:41:31 of course i do Sep 23 00:41:31 :) Sep 23 00:41:40 cuz i saw your nick in the about. Sep 23 00:41:41 i wrote it Sep 23 00:41:44 sgrover, no idea. Sep 23 00:41:50 raster, cool ;] Sep 23 00:41:53 kind of biased Sep 23 00:41:59 how many devs are you on it? Sep 23 00:42:06 dependws Sep 23 00:42:10 e the wm Sep 23 00:42:12 or everything Sep 23 00:42:32 give me an estimate. Sep 23 00:42:39 i don't nee SSNs ;] Sep 23 00:42:42 need* Sep 23 00:43:02 no i mean working on whihc bits? Sep 23 00:43:24 contribute code to the libs in general Sep 23 00:43:28 im not talking about e17. Sep 23 00:44:29 hmm Sep 23 00:44:36 maybe a dozen people Sep 23 00:44:38 depends Sep 23 00:44:44 they dont work fulltime Sep 23 00:44:52 sure. Sep 23 00:44:53 so i am not sure number of devs really means much Sep 23 00:45:10 yeah, i know it doesn't. Sep 23 00:45:25 just wanted to know how many people know e to the core ;] Sep 23 00:45:46 possibly about a dozen then Sep 23 00:45:47 :) Sep 23 00:46:18 cool. Sep 23 00:46:22 well it's 4 am here Sep 23 00:46:30 and im up at 7:15 Sep 23 00:46:36 and i have a long day Sep 23 00:46:44 so i guess im off to get some sleep Sep 23 00:46:58 nice talking to you though. thanks for e, and good night. Sep 23 00:47:14 iu know we have about 1 million lines fo c code in svn Sep 23 00:47:34 whihc isnt to be sniffed at Sep 23 00:47:57 in fact... just over 1mil Sep 23 00:48:05 ansic: 1057550 (90.38%) Sep 23 00:49:54 night! Sep 23 01:03:15 LEAK TEH DOCS RAS! Sep 23 01:04:56 (not that i still expect him to but now i'm just wearing away at his sanity) Sep 23 01:05:29 RAS and sanity! lol Sep 23 01:06:07 is there any default u-boot_env file that i can flash my phone with? Sep 23 01:06:58 someone fix the resume WSOD i'll give you,(/me looks around the room)... this shiny empty beer can Sep 23 01:08:45 kd8ikt: You're not too far from me; send me your phone and I'll work on it (mine doesn't do it) Sep 23 01:09:22 (the things I'll do for shiny things) Sep 23 01:10:26 your joking right? Sep 23 01:10:35 yours suspendds/resumes perfectly? Sep 23 01:10:48 all im asking is a file that i can put into my phone using the "u-boot_env" alternative, so my u-boot entries return to the factory defaults, how hard is that? :) i've been in the wiki chaos for like 1 hour with no luck Sep 23 01:10:52 Unless it runs the battery flat while it's suspended. Sep 23 01:11:06 dude i want the firmware you're using Sep 23 01:11:15 WSOD is firmware related ? Sep 23 01:11:26 or kernel Sep 23 01:12:20 There's definitely a problem in the kernel as user-space shouldn't be able to kill resume -- but it seems the 2008.x firmware is the one that triggers this problem most often. Sep 23 01:13:14 I'm now starting to agree with Andy that it seems to be glamo-related, and possibly hardware-dependent (race condition, noise, etc) Sep 23 01:13:17 is your lil website still up? and up to date? Sep 23 01:13:26 I just updated it yesterday. Sep 23 01:13:33 i forget the link Sep 23 01:13:38 url Sep 23 01:13:46 http://moko.mwester.net/ Sep 23 01:14:11 I've been working with Qtopia, and bug #1024 recently Sep 23 01:15:39 ah yes i noticed that issue aswell Sep 23 01:15:56 Are you a victim of that too? Sep 23 01:17:05 when i had qtopia flashed for sometime yesterday Sep 23 01:17:28 kinda sad the ole gtk rootfs has beennuked Sep 23 01:18:01 Well, it's a hardware/GSM problem -- it affected all the images. I just chose Qtopia and FSO as the firmwares to work on fixing this with. Sep 23 01:19:01 2008.9 just doesn't do anything positive for me; I'll probably back-port the Qtopia changes if and when the 2008.9 image stabilized to the point where it does anything useful. Sep 23 01:22:26 qtopia-4.3.3-snapshot? Sep 23 01:22:44 i'm tempted to reflash it Sep 23 01:24:01 with the uImage-gta02-mwester-stable-d6f9fd270943fb22.bin Sep 23 01:24:46 does it need the http://moko.mwester.net/download/apm-qtopia-v1.tgz Sep 23 01:25:24 ( http://moko.mwester.net/qtopia.html ) Sep 23 01:26:32 The kernel provided with the qtopia images are current; there's nothing on my site yet that's any newer. So don't use the kernels on my site. Sep 23 01:27:02 yea (that kernel came via qtopia.net) the latest snapy Sep 23 01:27:02 The apm-qtopia-v1.tgz is just a set of scripts; currently applies to Qtopia 4.3.2 and 4.3.3 Sep 23 01:27:33 I have Qtopia on my Neo, and it's working really well. Sep 23 01:27:41 is there a way to disable qtopia's predictive text input? Sep 23 01:27:52 i fricken hate that Sep 23 01:28:28 hold down on the letter it will popup a 'spyglass' Sep 23 01:29:02 ljp: a shorter delay on that sure would be nice Sep 23 01:29:26 i wish it would stay in one spot not move with your finger Sep 23 01:29:28 if you just type the whole word, it usually does good Sep 23 01:29:44 it predicts by word not by letter Sep 23 01:30:02 ljp: any comments on Qtopia and landscape mode? Sep 23 01:30:17 or am i forgetting to put a space at the end of my input to get rid of the predicted crap Sep 23 01:30:29 tap on the assembled text Sep 23 01:30:47 mwester_: 4.4 :) Sep 23 01:30:58 has dynamic rotation Sep 23 01:30:59 really?! Cool! Sep 23 01:32:59 when can we try it ljp? Sep 23 01:33:17 miss me? Sep 23 01:34:02 slaxxin: only after its released Sep 23 01:34:59 * mwester_ wonders if ljp will take bribes to let him join the beta test program. Sep 23 01:34:59 * RayDar knows better than to ask when something is going to be released Sep 23 01:35:20 re mwester Sep 23 01:36:48 * kd8ikt cry's inside for the death of 2007.1 Sep 23 01:37:02 and i have no backups Sep 23 01:37:22 even if it was severely lacking Sep 23 01:37:25 when its released, you'll see why... Sep 23 01:37:43 My GoogleEarth->Laptop->USB->Neo1973->GPRS/GPS/NAT/NFS/SSH monster is closer to life Sep 23 01:39:11 frankenphone Sep 23 01:40:30 It's cobbled together with spare parts from old PDA's and calculators Sep 23 01:42:54 what's google earth in there for? Sep 23 01:43:51 balrog-kun: The idea is to have my laptop show my location realtime on GoogleEarth on my road trip. Sep 23 01:44:33 * mwester_ tries hard to do just the opposite; why give the government targeting computers help? Sep 23 01:46:30 i think you're just flattering yourself to think you're that important Sep 23 01:46:31 mwester: I too take great precautions with certain aspects of privacy. I only plan on using this during my upcoming month-long road trip. If all goes well, my family and friends will also be able to see my location in real-time in GoogleEarth. Sep 23 01:47:56 (and, of course, the Dick Cheney targeting computers) Sep 23 01:48:24 Everytime the US elects a Dick, something goes wrong. Sep 23 01:48:51 I'm trying to figure out why libtool, when cross compiling keeps prefixing some of the libraries with /usr/lib instead of picking up the ones from /usr/local/openmoko/ via the -L paths Sep 23 01:51:52 using qtopia i paired my bluetooth handsfree device but ... whatelse do i have to do Sep 23 01:52:00 Here is a great sentence from http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Toolchain#Introduction "It can download and install library what has already existed in Openmoko repository." Sep 23 01:52:35 kd8ikt: fix the alsa state for bluetooth, and then implement the bt hdeaset parts in Qtopia Sep 23 01:52:41 kd8ikt: If you get that working, I am interested in learning how you did it. Sep 23 01:53:06 All your library are belong to us. Sep 23 01:59:06 opkg-target keeps giving me "* Could not obtain administrative lock" Sep 23 02:04:25 thats cause opkg is running in the background somewheres Sep 23 02:06:37 kd8ikt: I changed a bunch of file permissions and that seems to have fixed it. Sep 23 02:09:55 * mwester_ notes ljp's words, looks at the bluetooth headset he was struggling with earlier today, and tosses it aside sadly... Sep 23 02:10:33 mwester: Someday.... be patient grasshopper, someday your headset will work. Sep 23 02:11:36 * RayDar downloads a whole lotta stuff. He hopes this is what is needed just to make a Hello World Sep 23 02:13:57 * kd8ikt performs a vulcan mind meld with his phone Sep 23 02:15:18 My mind to your mind...my thoughts to your thoughts... Sep 23 02:15:38 OMG. I don't want to have to install gnome stuff. Sep 23 02:16:36 speciesist! Sep 23 02:19:36 configure: error: C compiler cannot create executables Sep 23 02:19:59 mwester: I installed the gnome-common package. I am happy it wasn't too large. Sep 23 02:29:59 whats the chances of a device like this having something on it that we know nothing about? Sep 23 02:31:33 a teflon pad to rub it around on so it will charge itself might be a cool feature Sep 23 02:38:26 the asimilation chamber--enviroment-- has been completed Sep 23 02:38:37 guess you're acustomed to "jerking off" might as well produce DC energy whilst doing it eh? Sep 23 02:38:56 no teflon pad Sep 23 02:39:32 the teflon pad should be waterproof to realize kd8ikt idea, too Sep 23 02:41:11 it might make a bluetooth-wireless mouse i was just thinking of how to use that mouse motion to make power since 4 energy eaters are combined into one unit with the freerunner Sep 23 02:42:09 atleast to offset the power drain somewhat Sep 23 02:42:16 and i thought i watched too much startrek Sep 23 02:42:34 gotta reach Sep 23 02:42:40 emphasis on the *I* Sep 23 02:43:14 no i thought Sep 23 02:46:53 lets toss in a fluxcapacitor while where at it Sep 23 02:47:03 thats next Sep 23 02:47:04 we're Sep 23 02:47:17 consider this Sep 23 02:48:28 mwester_: kd8ikt : there was someone on the mailing lists who got bt headset working I think. or got very close Sep 23 02:48:48 and had an alsa state for it Sep 23 02:48:53 take raw sewage an add 600psi an500degrees F an add household unrecyclables grind it up an produce fuel oil Sep 23 02:50:49 noneed i modified my battery with a coldfusion mod Sep 23 02:51:08 no need for a battery Sep 23 02:51:44 redundancy Sep 23 02:53:27 well untill qtopia releases i will just hang out with fdom' Sep 23 02:54:01 then i hink i will just switch out sdcards to switch os **** ENDING LOGGING AT Tue Sep 23 02:59:58 2008