**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Sun Oct 26 02:59:57 2008
Oct 26 03:27:13 <Dave> moo
Oct 26 04:18:59 <slick666> back all
Oct 26 04:19:11 <slick666> I figured out how to get qemu running
Oct 26 04:19:42 <slick666> but now that I have OM booted in qemu the os doesn't really do anything
Oct 26 04:19:49 <slick666> I can click on the icons
Oct 26 04:20:04 <slick666> but they don't do anything
Oct 26 04:21:02 <slick666> anyone else have this or am I just missing something
Oct 26 04:23:38 <edistar> might just be super slow
Oct 26 04:28:00 <nemik> slick666: is it just 4 icons at the bottom?
Oct 26 04:28:29 <nemik> if so, you probably have an old firmware. there's instructions on getting a newer one at the bottom of the wiki for qemu
Oct 26 04:28:48 <nemik> i tried today but the newer one wasn't working.
Oct 26 04:37:43 <slick666> yea
Oct 26 04:37:54 <slick666> it's just the 4 I cons
Oct 26 04:39:27 <slick666> I used the wiki to get the makefile
Oct 26 04:39:42 <slick666> it downloaded and built everything
Oct 26 04:39:56 <slick666> automatic to be sure
Oct 26 04:40:10 <slick666> but not too functional
Oct 26 04:40:52 <mwester> Pretty cool for only 1 1/2 years of work, huh?!!
Oct 26 04:41:04 <slick666> yea
Oct 26 04:41:12 <slick666> it's an awsome idea
Oct 26 04:41:45 <slick666> I want to see it in action, but without the hardware :)
Oct 26 04:42:18 <slick666> is there a way to download and build the latest through the qemu makefile I have?
Oct 26 07:01:16 <tomboy64> goood morning
Oct 26 07:42:52 <Ke> does freerunner still have proper video drivers?
Oct 26 07:45:21 <lindi-> Ke: still?
Oct 26 07:45:31 <Ke> well yet
Oct 26 07:53:26 <kd8ikt_> sdfff
Oct 26 09:20:35 <PBeck> hallo
Oct 26 09:24:01 <Sargun> heya
Oct 26 09:55:56 <Shlee> Android Is Not Good Enough for Sprint.. 
Oct 26 09:56:14 <Shlee> ha ha.. like anything could make Sprint look worse
Oct 26 09:56:29 <ronny> sprint?
Oct 26 09:56:40 <cjb_ie> US cellco
Oct 26 10:07:55 <Dave> møø
Oct 26 10:09:11 <Pander> hi
Oct 26 10:11:13 <ieatlint> dave, wtf are you doing awake?
Oct 26 10:11:18 <Dave> :DDD
Oct 26 10:12:15 <Dave> nice to see you too, lint :P
Oct 26 10:14:57 <zogg_> morning.
Oct 26 10:17:03 <ieatlint> yeah, i'm unsure of why i'm up
Oct 26 10:17:17 <ieatlint> except because it takes me 90min to get home, and i'm dreading it
Oct 26 10:20:59 <Dave> heh
Oct 26 10:24:36 <ieatlint> ok, so 20min till my bus comes
Oct 26 10:25:19 <Dave> Hope it's accurate ;p
Oct 26 10:33:45 <Dave> Have a nice ride, lint :)
Oct 26 10:33:58 <ieatlint> thx, cya
Oct 26 10:36:39 <Dave> :)
Oct 26 11:06:59 <zeev> do I understand it correctly - a successful porting of android to FR would mean resolving of all software problems and only hardware issues would remain?
Oct 26 11:07:48 <rhkfin> depends how you define 'successful' I guess..
Oct 26 11:08:10 <viq> And if you don't count software problems with android...
Oct 26 11:08:12 <zogg_> kernel problems span through all distributions?
Oct 26 11:08:17 <rhkfin> It might include fixing some kernel bugs or stuff..
Oct 26 11:08:44 <lindi-> zeev: what software issues are there?
Oct 26 11:09:02 <zeev> viq: yes that I don't count since there are enough people to take care of it
Oct 26 11:09:54 <viq> Are there?
Oct 26 11:10:50 <raster> zeev: as much as a successful porting on qte to freerunner solves all software problems
Oct 26 11:10:56 <zeev> lindi-: I don't know, since I don't have a FR, just consider buying one... thats why I'm asking... what about suspend/resume issue?
Oct 26 11:12:31 <lindi-> zeev: it depends on whether you consider that software or hardware issue
Oct 26 11:13:03 <lindi-> zeev: "first sector of SD card is corrupted on resume" is probably not going to be fixed by android?
Oct 26 11:13:18 <lindi-> zeev: bugs in wlan driver are probably going to be fixed either
Oct 26 11:13:59 <raster> u'll also have all the need to handle all the quirks of the gsm modem
Oct 26 11:14:09 <raster> so all ta commandest controls by android will need a going-voer
Oct 26 11:14:17 <raster> as every gsm modem has its own quirks and behaviors
Oct 26 11:14:40 <raster> not to mention power usage
Oct 26 11:14:47 <raster> eg if android expects to suspend/resume
Oct 26 11:14:59 <raster> or if it expects zero-clock like nokia use ont eh n770/800/810
Oct 26 11:15:07 <raster> oh there's a lot fo gotchas
Oct 26 11:15:23 <raster> android isnt any big fix for them
Oct 26 11:15:30 <raster> its just "yer another gui app stack"
Oct 26 11:15:37 <raster> to compete with x11, qte
Oct 26 11:15:54 <zeev> is gtk based?
Oct 26 11:17:10 <raster> andorid?
Oct 26 11:17:12 <lindi-> i just switched to icewm
Oct 26 11:17:23 <zeev> yes, android
Oct 26 11:17:27 <raster> no
Oct 26 11:17:39 <raster> android is more like qte (qtopia)
Oct 26 11:17:43 <raster> it has its own windowing system
Oct 26 11:17:47 <raster> orn api'
Oct 26 11:17:52 <raster> own api's/toolkits
Oct 26 11:17:55 <zeev> ok, thanks
Oct 26 11:17:59 <raster> which you need to write java code to use/access
Oct 26 11:18:17 <viq> in short android is android-based ;)
Oct 26 11:18:30 <raster> so if u want to develop for android - at this stage as best i know - it's done with the language and compiler/toolkit they specify/give you in the sdk
Oct 26 11:18:32 <raster> or not at all
Oct 26 11:19:30 <zeev> ok, than I'll still have to wait to a properly working FR :(
Oct 26 11:19:37 <DocScrutinizer2> have much fun on porting standard X-apps tehn!
Oct 26 11:20:02 <raster> ugh
Oct 26 11:20:21 <raster> i have no like of all these "lets do our own windowing / display system" os-efforts
Oct 26 11:20:30 <raster> it fragments things greatly
Oct 26 11:20:34 <raster> if everyone stuck to x11
Oct 26 11:20:47 <DocScrutinizer2> yo
Oct 26 11:20:49 <raster> then u'd at least be able to run the majority of apps from one "system" on another
Oct 26 11:20:53 <raster> eg qt apps in x11
Oct 26 11:20:54 <raster> or gtk app
Oct 26 11:20:58 <raster> or normal java apps
Oct 26 11:21:06 <raster> OR android... i they played ball
Oct 26 11:21:52 <DocScrutinizer2> guess why OM/TT ported qt to X
Oct 26 11:22:27 <DocScrutinizer2> qtopia that is
Oct 26 11:23:07 <raster> well m,ostly because sean/wil/wolfgang loves qtopia
Oct 26 11:23:11 <raster> and wanted it
Oct 26 11:23:28 <raster> but at the same time just using it withotu x means alienating a huge number of devs
Oct 26 11:23:33 <raster> basically forcing them int c++ and qt
Oct 26 11:23:47 <raster> so either u write/port/whatever an xserver for qtopia
Oct 26 11:23:53 <raster> or u port qte to x
Oct 26 11:23:53 <DocScrutinizer2> so they had to use X
Oct 26 11:24:02 <raster> the 2nd makes more sense in the long term
Oct 26 11:24:27 <DocScrutinizer2> android is no X
Oct 26 11:24:39 <raster> nup
Oct 26 11:24:43 <raster> it's got its own world
Oct 26 11:25:41 <DocScrutinizer2> its basically a smartphone world, no computer os
Oct 26 11:27:12 <DocScrutinizer2> FR is designed to be a computer that incidentally can do phonecalls using the GPRSmodem
Oct 26 11:28:12 <leinirAWAY> It really ought to be marketed more in that direction :)
Oct 26 11:30:42 <raster> DocScrutinizer2: its 2 very different philospohies on development yes
Oct 26 11:30:48 <raster> android comes from the phone-world
Oct 26 11:30:52 <raster> where they think like a phone
Oct 26 11:31:01 <raster> not like a "desktop os"
Oct 26 11:31:06 <raster> ie all apps are fullscreen
Oct 26 11:31:23 <DocScrutinizer2> fb
Oct 26 11:31:23 <raster> a lot of apps literally do and AHVE to take over the screen
Oct 26 11:31:27 <raster> 1 process at a tiem on the screen
Oct 26 11:31:38 <raster> to display the signal strength/battery meter while a process is up
Oct 26 11:31:44 <raster> each process has to do it themselves
Oct 26 11:31:53 <DocScrutinizer2> lol
Oct 26 11:31:56 <raster> instead of a windowing system where that stuff is take care of by something else
Oct 26 11:32:09 <raster> thats the last time i looked at some of the phone "os"'s out there
Oct 26 11:32:17 <raster> multitasking was unknown :)
Oct 26 11:32:22 <raster> well ok - for back-end stuff
Oct 26 11:32:32 <raster> for the front end its 1 process to rul them al for the whole screen
Oct 26 11:32:38 <raster> not sure about android's details tho
Oct 26 11:32:42 <leinir> That's not what android does, they do have a framing system and such, each app has a viewport, not the full screen
Oct 26 11:32:47 <raster> but they are coming from that world
Oct 26 11:32:48 <raster> :)
Oct 26 11:32:51 <leinir> They are more a java type thing, really
Oct 26 11:32:56 <leinir> Each program is a sandbox
Oct 26 11:33:13 <raster> as i said
Oct 26 11:33:16 <raster> not sure about androiud
Oct 26 11:33:25 <pelifante> each program is coded by an android
Oct 26 11:33:26 <raster> but i get thje feeling it comes much more from that world
Oct 26 11:33:36 <raster> than from the x/linux/desktop world
Oct 26 11:33:44 <leinir> Yeah, it does come from that world :)
Oct 26 11:34:07 <leinir> The window management is a full-screen concept (a tiling wm with only one tile, essentially)
Oct 26 11:34:54 <raster> yeah
Oct 26 11:34:56 <raster> thats my point
Oct 26 11:35:02 <raster> its better than  the others i've seen
Oct 26 11:35:07 <raster> years ago
Oct 26 11:35:19 <raster> but still a different world
Oct 26 11:35:29 <DocScrutinizer2> only runs java though
Oct 26 11:35:34 <leinir> It's kind of what ASU does, right?
Oct 26 11:35:50 <Ke> still is there anyone who would like to use an app less than fullscreen on a freerunner or so
Oct 26 11:35:57 <leinir> It *can* show windowed windows as well, but programs run in full size unless something odd happens :)
Oct 26 11:36:03 <Ke> the display is quite minimal
Oct 26 11:36:50 <DocScrutinizer2> ke: thats not the point
Oct 26 11:37:15 <CIA-49> freesmartphone.org: 03mickey 07framework * r69f31318b901 10/framework/subsystems/ousaged/generic.py: ousaged: readd os import and ~lart pychecker. Thanks quickdev
Oct 26 11:37:17 <leinir> ,
Oct 26 11:37:25 <DocScrutinizer2> try porting any of ur fav apps to android :-/
Oct 26 11:37:29 <leinir> oops, arm on keyboard ;)
Oct 26 11:37:34 <tomboy64> i'm a bit annoyed http://docs.openmoko.org/trac/ticket/1718
Oct 26 11:37:44 <tomboy64> a wee bit only :-D
Oct 26 11:38:39 <zash> DocScrutinizer2: aka rewriting in java
Oct 26 11:38:49 <DocScrutinizer2> yup
Oct 26 11:39:08 <raster> Ke: it all depends on the app.
Oct 26 11:39:09 <raster> for example
Oct 26 11:39:12 <leinir> zash: More than that, you have to most likely rethink the program structure as well
Oct 26 11:39:19 <raster> i could handle having a music player take 1/3 the screen
Oct 26 11:39:38 <raster> and the bottom 2/3 could be a news feed i'm reading
Oct 26 11:39:57 <Ke> ok
Oct 26 11:40:01 <raster> also u assume the FR and its screen size
Oct 26 11:40:06 <raster> if u think more generically
Oct 26 11:40:11 <raster> imagine a phone with the screen the n800 has
Oct 26 11:40:16 <raster> 800x480 4.3"
Oct 26 11:40:22 <pelifante> DocScrutinizer2: well, java apps should port well.. the other apps.. if all of their dependencies are installed (glibc, etc..) should run ok outside the jvm i think
Oct 26 11:40:24 <raster> u could quite haoppily share 2 apps on that any day
Oct 26 11:40:31 <raster> :)
Oct 26 11:41:03 <Ke> well I still wouldn't
Oct 26 11:41:17 <DocScrutinizer2> pelifante: and how do they display?
Oct 26 11:41:18 <Ke> but I guess someone would
Oct 26 11:41:26 <raster> no need to preclude by design
Oct 26 11:41:33 <raster> make it a config option
Oct 26 11:41:46 <pelifante> DocScrutinizer2: hum.. good question :p
Oct 26 11:41:56 <pelifante> DocScrutinizer2: fortunately all my favourite apps are command line :P
Oct 26 11:42:31 <DocScrutinizer2> pelifante: so go look for a java based xterm then :-P
Oct 26 11:43:36 <pelifante> java term
Oct 26 11:43:55 <DocScrutinizer2> or simpy press ctrl-alt-F2 :D
Oct 26 11:43:55 <pelifante> someone implemented a unix kernel in java, i wonder if it would run in the android vm
Oct 26 11:44:46 <DocScrutinizer2> like qemu running windoze - lol
Oct 26 11:44:52 <tomboy64> lol
Oct 26 11:50:45 <CIA-49> freesmartphone.org: 03niklas.coding 07libframeworkd-glib * r5dc148e22bab 10/src/ogsmd/ (4 files in 2 dirs): Adjusted sms functions.
Oct 26 11:52:09 <swetland> raster: I'm not a framework guy, but my understanding is the windowmanager policy is designed to be pluggable, such that one could implement something other than one fullscreen app at a time.  the surfaceflinger (compositor) certainly is quite happy to deal with any number of arbitrary sized overlapping surfaces
Oct 26 11:52:59 <leinir> swetland: android?
Oct 26 11:53:50 * swetland nods
Oct 26 11:53:55 <raster> swetland: thats cool
Oct 26 11:54:32 <swetland> the intent is to be open to support less traditional phone-centric devices and profiles, though obviously 1.0 was largely built around traditional phone interfaces
Oct 26 11:55:26 <swetland> I imagine we'll have to shake some bugs out when people start exploring other uses, but the bones of the framework provide for 'em
Oct 26 11:55:31 <leinir> i did get that vibe from the presentation video on source.android.com :)
Oct 26 11:56:09 <swetland> one of the appealing parts of doing this open source (a bunch of us worked on hiptop/sidekick, webtv, etc in past lives) is building tools to use for future projects
Oct 26 11:56:40 <swetland> and hopefully some stuff that other folks will find useful too
Oct 26 11:57:02 <raster> saweare you going to allow native dev?
Oct 26 11:57:07 <raster> ie non dex/java based?
Oct 26 11:57:14 <raster> ie expose apis' with standard symbols?
Oct 26 11:57:26 <swetland> so, the system itself is designed to support multiple runtime environments
Oct 26 11:57:38 <swetland> we don't rely on the vm for any real security -- that's handled at the linux process level
Oct 26 11:58:22 <swetland> for 1.0, we're putting together an NDK (native dev kit) which will provide tools for assembling shared libs for bundling in apks (android packages / apps) to extend stuff with native code
Oct 26 11:58:45 <swetland> that works today (you can bundle a .so with an app, have it provide extensions via jni, etc)
Oct 26 11:58:59 <raster> the other way around
Oct 26 11:59:08 <raster> standard c app can just run and display
Oct 26 11:59:21 <swetland> that's further out, but something I'd like to see too. will probably happen in phases.
Oct 26 11:59:35 <raster> i'll wait until that day :)
Oct 26 11:59:51 <swetland> what I'm pushing for first is a sort of "gamekit" native api, providing display surfaces, events, audio path, etc
Oct 26 12:00:18 <swetland> and then building up from there with the remoted stuff for access to data (the content providers, etc)
Oct 26 12:01:08 <raster> chances are tho... it's just too much of "yet another display system and platform to support"
Oct 26 12:01:14 <raster> i'm already drowining in them
Oct 26 12:01:18 <raster> i need to trim them down actually
Oct 26 12:01:22 <swetland> we're prepared to support the java language apis for 1.0+, have tools to verify compatibility, error the build out on breakage, etc. the native stuff is not ready to be frozen at this point
Oct 26 12:01:26 * swetland nods
Oct 26 12:02:26 <swetland> I'd love to see other runtimes / native apps in other toolkits running side by side as first class citizens in the system, longer term
Oct 26 12:03:00 <raster> so far support: win32 (gdi, d3d) wince (fb), sdl, x11, xcb, xrender, gl, qtopia, quartz, directfb...
Oct 26 12:03:00 <swetland> we had to pick our battles for 1.0 so we could actually ship
Oct 26 12:03:06 <raster> and thats a pain to maintain
Oct 26 12:03:12 * swetland nods
Oct 26 12:03:36 <raster> shcnaes are a gl-es enigne will pop up soon - so i'm goign to have to rationalize soon enough
Oct 26 12:03:47 <swetland> saw something about enlightenment and a new lightweight toolkit thing running in 32MB -- is that baseline just for the wm/toolkit, or actually running apps in 32MB?
Oct 26 12:04:05 <raster> swetland:  apps runing
Oct 26 12:04:10 <swetland> nice
Oct 26 12:04:16 <raster> swetland:  baseline for e+x+all the other linux goop is 17m
Oct 26 12:04:25 <raster> no wait
Oct 26 12:04:25 <raster> wrong
Oct 26 12:04:27 <raster> 12m
Oct 26 12:04:33 <swetland> what size display?
Oct 26 12:04:34 <raster> (excluding kernel)
Oct 26 12:04:44 <raster> got 17m free
Oct 26 12:04:47 <raster> on a 32m box
Oct 26 12:04:49 <raster> 320x320
Oct 26 12:05:09 <raster> it just works autoamtically on pretty much everything from qvga up to 800x4800.. and higher
Oct 26 12:05:29 <raster> i've done some effort lately to support full dpi adjusting/scaling
Oct 26 12:05:42 <tomboy64> might it be that assassin is broken?
Oct 26 12:05:48 <swetland> does it support some level of double buffering or other fun to avoid tearing / watching-the-ui-repaint?
Oct 26 12:05:55 <raster> i test on 240x320, 272x480, 320x320, 640x480, 480,640, 800x480
Oct 26 12:06:08 <raster> (at variuos real-life dpi's)
Oct 26 12:06:18 <raster> aah no
Oct 26 12:06:20 <raster> no compositing
Oct 26 12:06:21 <swetland> that's something that drives me nuts about winmo and the stuff that runs on the nokia tablets -- constantly seeing flashes of white / partially drawn gunk
Oct 26 12:06:23 <tomboy64> i did an upgrade via opkg and since then it complains whenever i start it that it can't get the repos
Oct 26 12:06:24 <raster> thats on the plans for e18
Oct 26 12:06:39 <raster> and when i do it the compositor will try and vsync composites
Oct 26 12:06:39 * swetland nods
Oct 26 12:06:42 <tomboy64> but upkg update/upgrade and everything else from the cli works fine
Oct 26 12:06:44 <raster> if it can get reliable vsync info
Oct 26 12:06:51 <raster> if not - make sure at least updates are synced
Oct 26 12:06:57 <raster> even if off-sync to vsync
Oct 26 12:06:58 <raster> :)
Oct 26 12:07:11 <raster> i can limit excessive draws
Oct 26 12:07:18 <raster> eg if an app draw > refresh rate of screen
Oct 26 12:07:24 <raster> dont bother compositing any faster than that
Oct 26 12:07:34 <raster> also coallate updates to be at the same time
Oct 26 12:07:35 <raster> eg
Oct 26 12:07:57 <raster> app one draw at frame 1.3, app2 at 1.6 and app 3at 1.8 - u'll see the upsates meregs at frame 2 of all 3
Oct 26 12:08:05 <raster> rather than it try and do 3 separate updates
Oct 26 12:08:13 <raster> it shoudl make compositing "sane"
Oct 26 12:08:15 <swetland> one big reason we went with the compositor model was to avoid partial draws and also ensure that one app being slow doesn't hold up other apps (don't want the incall stuff to drag if the fg app is having issues)
Oct 26 12:08:24 <raster> excluding the need for either a really godo software compositor
Oct 26 12:08:32 <raster> or really good xrender fallbacks.. or hardware accel
Oct 26 12:08:33 <raster> :)
Oct 26 12:08:46 <swetland> it costs us in memory (main fb double buffered, windows double buffered), but the system can always draw if it needs to, which is nice
Oct 26 12:08:56 <raster> yeah
Oct 26 12:08:59 <raster> i understand
Oct 26 12:09:12 <raster> inf act elementary (toolkit ui for this stuff) double-buffer sitself by default
Oct 26 12:09:21 <raster> the whole window has a backing pixmap
Oct 26 12:09:35 <raster> but u still miss fancy compositing effects without a compositor
Oct 26 12:09:40 * swetland is looking forward to the mobile chipset folks finally moving to gpu hw that can handle multiple contexts
Oct 26 12:09:47 <raster> it'll turn off its own double-buffering if it detetcs a real composite manager
Oct 26 12:10:02 <swetland> we *really* wanted to use the gpu for both the compositor and the fg app on the msm7201a but it just wasn't possible
Oct 26 12:10:33 <raster> well it all depends
Oct 26 12:10:35 <raster> its always possible
Oct 26 12:10:38 <raster> but is it "sane" ?
Oct 26 12:10:39 <raster> :)
Oct 26 12:10:57 <raster> ie u'd have to shadow the full context of any process drawing
Oct 26 12:10:58 <swetland> well, if we had more time we could have funneled all gl ops through a server
Oct 26 12:11:10 <raster> and on a switch - restore your current context
Oct 26 12:11:15 <Flyser> raster: can you explain why x11-16 works on your latest image, while it doesn't on other builds like the FSO images?
Oct 26 12:11:19 <raster> but that could be incredibly expensive
Oct 26 12:11:31 <raster> u'd also need to sync /flush operations etc.
Oct 26 12:11:44 <swetland> the gpu architecture itself and the requirement for the driver to be in userspace caused some massive security headaches if 2 clients, especially 1 trusted, 1 not, had accesl at the same time
Oct 26 12:12:04 <raster> yeah
Oct 26 12:12:09 <raster> the direct access is the problem
Oct 26 12:12:12 <raster> as u said
Oct 26 12:12:16 <dolf1074> bricode: are you there?
Oct 26 12:12:22 <raster> if u indirected thru a server (egt x) u'd have no problem
Oct 26 12:12:23 <raster> BUT
Oct 26 12:12:29 <raster> u'd pay for it in performance
Oct 26 12:12:35 <swetland> yeah
Oct 26 12:12:38 <raster> for thigns that do large operatiosn but not many
Oct 26 12:12:47 <raster> (eg compositing and drawing of large blobs of stuff) it'd be fine
Oct 26 12:13:05 <raster> those that like to pump zillions of small poly's and ops at the gfx system will suffer
Oct 26 12:13:26 <raster> Flyser:  not sure really. i havent looke dat what the others do - i just have ensured i build stuff correctly :)
Oct 26 12:13:28 <swetland> anyone in contact in the folks hacking on v4t support / android-on-freerunner?  ben leslie's been doing a bunch of good work on that and has a discussion underway on build system improvements:
Oct 26 12:13:32 <swetland> http://groups.google.com/group/android-porting/browse_thread/thread/5edf8d06370f0d7
Oct 26 12:13:51 <swetland> which may be of interest to them, if they haven't already done all of this themselves
Oct 26 12:13:55 <raster> swetland: i kind of hoep at some point someone comes up with a android-display-system-on-x11 layer
Oct 26 12:14:06 <raster> ie maps android primitives to x11 ones
Oct 26 12:14:10 <raster> so everyone can play together
Oct 26 12:14:13 <raster> al lat the same time
Oct 26 12:14:14 <raster> :)
Oct 26 12:14:19 <swetland> raster: I think it'd be easier to stack x11 on the android compositor
Oct 26 12:14:24 <swetland> but in theory you could go either way
Oct 26 12:14:43 <raster> i'm biased
Oct 26 12:14:44 <raster> :)
Oct 26 12:14:51 <swetland> no surprise
Oct 26 12:14:55 <raster> i like to see x on the bottom :)
Oct 26 12:15:32 <swetland> does x have a non-single-threaded server design that allows for simultaneous drawing from multiple clients these days?
Oct 26 12:15:40 <swetland> I'm totally out of touch as far as recent developments there
Oct 26 12:15:46 <raster> umm
Oct 26 12:15:47 <raster> no
Oct 26 12:15:54 <raster> but... umm... why does that matter?
Oct 26 12:16:13 <swetland> we like to not have situations where one client ends up starving others, etc
Oct 26 12:16:21 <raster> x rotates through the request queues from all clients
Oct 26 12:16:29 <raster> it tries to give them equal love
Oct 26 12:16:31 <raster> the problem isnt x
Oct 26 12:16:33 <raster> its the drviers
Oct 26 12:16:35 <raster> eg
Oct 26 12:16:37 <swetland> ah
Oct 26 12:16:44 <raster> the driver will stall and block waiting for a "big" op to finish
Oct 26 12:16:50 <raster> before going on
Oct 26 12:16:57 <raster> as such drivers shoudl use command queues
Oct 26 12:17:10 <raster> and ebvery x request gets translated into 1 or more command-queue ops
Oct 26 12:17:16 <raster> most gfx chips canty do multile ops at once
Oct 26 12:17:19 <raster> they do 1 op
Oct 26 12:17:28 <swetland> yeah
Oct 26 12:17:29 <raster> and wqithin that 1 op can parallelise it to "Get it done really fast"
Oct 26 12:17:36 <raster> some do have multiple ones
Oct 26 12:17:47 <raster> but then u will see the same problems - contention for shared resoruces anyway
Oct 26 12:18:04 <raster> so x doesnt need to become multi-threaded internally
Oct 26 12:18:11 <raster> its simpler and better the way it is
Oct 26 12:18:18 <raster> guarantees state and consitency nicely
Oct 26 12:18:32 <raster> but it just needs to be better at asynchronously handing off stuff to the driver/gfx layer
Oct 26 12:18:42 <raster> and doing a "fire and forget" kind of thing
Oct 26 12:19:09 <raster> and come back to the command-queue shadow every now and again to make sure the command-que doesnt grow out fo control
Oct 26 12:19:21 <raster> (ie limit the size and then block if the command-que is full and needs draining)
Oct 26 12:19:58 <raster> as such - in my experience i've never been able to starve x with 1 client
Oct 26 12:19:59 <raster> ever
Oct 26 12:20:05 <raster> UNLESS the driver is arse
Oct 26 12:20:29 <swetland> how minimal is this E17 stuff? is it a self contained toolkit or used in conjunction with gtk or something else?
Oct 26 12:20:53 <raster> (eg its a sloooow software fallback for things like gl or xrender and so u have to wait for a really slow blob of code to do the software version of the op)
Oct 26 12:21:05 <raster> swetland:  e is pretty self-contained
Oct 26 12:21:17 <raster> e itself is a wm - the usual more old-style
Oct 26 12:21:22 <raster> but with a tonne of built-ins
Oct 26 12:21:27 <raster> eg widget set/toolkit
Oct 26 12:21:28 <raster> filemanager
Oct 26 12:21:36 <raster> all its own config dialogs and plugin system etc.
Oct 26 12:21:54 <raster> the libs written for it are of course separated out as stand-alone libs
Oct 26 12:22:13 <raster> and can (And are) used outside of the wm (and all these libs are what has sucked up dev time for e17 and why it's taking forever)
Oct 26 12:22:22 <raster> elementary is just a shared lib
Oct 26 12:22:25 <raster> like gtk or qt
Oct 26 12:22:31 <raster> but it build on the efl libs
Oct 26 12:22:38 <raster> i make maximum use of them
Oct 26 12:22:45 <raster> a widget is about 50-300 lines of c code
Oct 26 12:22:54 * swetland nods
Oct 26 12:22:56 <raster> so widgets are tiny affairs that are brain-dead easy to crank out
Oct 26 12:23:05 <raster> evas/edje etc. take care fo the rest
Oct 26 12:23:14 <raster> so efl is more liek a toolkit building toolkit
Oct 26 12:23:21 <raster> its so easy to write a toolkit usign it
Oct 26 12:23:25 <raster> peolpe keep writing more of them
Oct 26 12:23:29 <swetland> I'll have to check it out sometime
Oct 26 12:23:33 <raster> and each one gets smaller/simpler
Oct 26 12:23:47 <swetland> something I'm interested in is going very very lightweight (32MB and below)
Oct 26 12:23:57 <raster> unlike gtk and qt the state engine and drawing is abstracted entirely out of the toolkit itself
Oct 26 12:24:02 <raster> event loop etc. too
Oct 26 12:24:13 <swetland> smartphones are fun, but heading down into the much less expensive mass market chipset range is interesting
Oct 26 12:24:39 <swetland> interesting
Oct 26 12:24:39 <raster> so all u do is implement a higher level policy and set of layouts/ideas and logical groupings of features
Oct 26 12:24:47 <raster> yeah phone are fun
Oct 26 12:24:52 <raster> my treo650 is my "low end" platform
Oct 26 12:24:53 <Wonka> swetland: for chinese values of "interesting"?
Oct 26 12:24:57 <raster> basically my theory is
Oct 26 12:25:00 <raster> if it works there
Oct 26 12:25:03 <raster> and i can run apps
Oct 26 12:25:06 <raster> and make calsl and do sms's
Oct 26 12:25:14 <raster> i have covered all i need to on the low end
Oct 26 12:25:21 <raster> everythnig else from there is just luxury
Oct 26 12:25:30 <raster> i shoudl get my pandora soon
Oct 26 12:25:48 <raster> and i'll be gettign a 6410 (Samsung) based device soon with gl-es libs
Oct 26 12:26:00 <swetland> hiptop1 was fun. 24mhz arm7, 16mb ram. these modern devices feel luxurious by comparison
Oct 26 12:26:11 <raster> so thats definitely gettign the high-end covered
Oct 26 12:26:21 <raster> swetland:  HAHAHAAH wow
Oct 26 12:26:22 <Kensan> raster: pandora should be shipping mid november afaik...
Oct 26 12:26:24 <raster> ok thats small
Oct 26 12:26:39 <swetland> raster: the *fun* part was we did almost all of it in java and it actually was pretty snappy
Oct 26 12:26:45 <raster> Kensan: yeha - i have a slight complication in that i have to move address betwene now and december 15
Oct 26 12:26:53 <raster> so its going to need soem redirecting of packages
Oct 26 12:27:20 <Kensan> raster: oh hope that works out ok :(
Oct 26 12:27:21 <raster> swetland: i will admit now. after some bad experiences with java - i swore off ever touching it ever again. :)
Oct 26 12:27:30 <swetland> and while I do love little homebrew kernels, it's fun to have linux this time around, kernelwise
Oct 26 12:27:43 <swetland> raster: the language is not too bad, the libraries annoy the crap out of me
Oct 26 12:28:23 <swetland> if you throw away almost everything but the bare minimum java.lang stuff, and build your own toolkits, and keep it simple and light it can work really nicely (which is what we did on hiptop)
Oct 26 12:28:27 <raster> swetland: hmm i foudn the vm to be arsetastic
Oct 26 12:28:32 <raster> and gc
Oct 26 12:28:39 <raster> the api - i was 'meh" on
Oct 26 12:28:47 <raster> i just was pissed off
Oct 26 12:29:00 <raster> i HAD to sue java for my pet subject - computer graphics (at university)
Oct 26 12:29:14 <swetland> yeah, not exactly the best match
Oct 26 12:29:20 <raster> and the best way to piss me off is to force me to use somethng that was not apprioriate on my pet subject
Oct 26 12:29:26 <swetland> especially in the earlier days of java and the hw at the time
Oct 26 12:29:28 <raster> before i started comp gfx
Oct 26 12:29:33 <raster> i had written a 3d texture mapping enigne
Oct 26 12:29:48 <raster> (those days when quake came out and everyone wanted to write their own quake engine? those days)
Oct 26 12:29:57 <raster> so i had one that did 40-50fps in 320x240
Oct 26 12:30:00 <raster> textures, gouraud shading
Oct 26 12:30:05 <raster> lens flare
Oct 26 12:30:07 <raster> 16bit gfx
Oct 26 12:30:10 <raster> in x11 - in a window
Oct 26 12:30:16 <raster> it ran on my p120 at the time wonderfully
Oct 26 12:30:19 <swetland> nice
Oct 26 12:30:21 <raster> used about 1mb of ram
Oct 26 12:30:33 <raster> BUT
Oct 26 12:30:39 <raster> then i had to use java
Oct 26 12:30:41 <raster> simialr window
Oct 26 12:30:44 <raster> 1fps
Oct 26 12:30:59 <raster> flat polygons (no texture - what. textures didnt exist back then!)
Oct 26 12:31:07 <raster> and the thing needd 70mb of ram
Oct 26 12:31:22 <raster> because the gc wouldnt clena up until i put in sleeps every few seconds to let it
Oct 26 12:31:32 <raster> no mater how many refrences i set to NULL
Oct 26 12:31:35 <raster> it wouldnt clean
Oct 26 12:31:44 <raster> and as of that day.. i swore never to touch java again
Oct 26 12:31:48 <raster> :)
Oct 26 12:31:53 <swetland> a couple years ago, when I was taking a break after danger and before android, I spent some time fiddling with opengl on linux for the first time since I did gl on irix back in school
Oct 26 12:31:59 <swetland> s/irix/iris/
Oct 26 12:32:00 <apt> swetland meant: a couple years ago, when I was taking a break after danger and before android, I spent some time fiddling with opengl on linux for the first time since I did gl on iris back in school
Oct 26 12:32:19 <swetland> and wow, mediocre gpus these days amaze me. total luxury
Oct 26 12:32:32 <raster> yeah
Oct 26 12:32:49 <raster> the proiblem is a lot of that luxury is trapped behind closed and often crappy libs
Oct 26 12:32:52 <raster> (gl)
Oct 26 12:33:03 <raster> not the gl api
Oct 26 12:33:06 <raster> but the implementation of it
Oct 26 12:33:13 <raster> eg software paths for thigns that SHOULD be a hw path
Oct 26 12:33:15 <raster> nothng u can do
Oct 26 12:33:17 <swetland> had cobbled together a little model loader, demo dealie. it was just crazy fast, hundreds of fps... turned on textures for shits and grins... no drop in speed. didn't even blink
Oct 26 12:33:40 <raster> things like not working with x properly and getting out of sync or getting clip regions wrong
Oct 26 12:33:57 <raster> like 2d and 3d subsystems basically ignoring eachothers existence at all
Oct 26 12:34:00 <swetland> haven't had a chance to play with shader stuff. next time I take some serious time off, I need to catch up on the state of the art on gpu stuff
Oct 26 12:34:04 <raster> whereas pixmaps SHOULD be textures
Oct 26 12:34:17 <raster> windows SHOULD just be quads with the texture drawn in it
Oct 26 12:34:17 <raster> etc.
Oct 26 12:34:28 <swetland> yeah, that'd be nice
Oct 26 12:34:28 <raster> so 2d and 3d should be the same thing
Oct 26 12:34:57 <raster> i've been waiting for this since like 1998
Oct 26 12:35:09 <swetland> I'm encouraged that we're starting to see vendors address the multicontext issues 
Oct 26 12:35:33 <raster> i think i was claiming back then "thats where the future is - 2d will just use the 3d engine - all it needs is for 3d to do all the basics 2d needs and then just "get on with it"
Oct 26 12:35:40 <raster> yeah
Oct 26 12:35:41 <swetland> not all of them, and not always well, but at least we're moving a bit away from "only one guy can muck with the gpu at a time"
Oct 26 12:35:46 <raster> or at leats suport fast context switchingt
Oct 26 12:35:54 <raster> instead of doing it all in software higher up
Oct 26 12:35:55 <swetland> yah
Oct 26 12:36:19 <raster> being able to read/write a context blob as a dumb blob of ram too for when u run out of hardware context slots
Oct 26 12:37:37 <raster> i'm hoping it improves
Oct 26 12:37:48 <raster> tho doing cool software rendering is fun
Oct 26 12:37:52 <swetland> I should pick up a freerunner sometime and check out whatever the latest shiny is from you guys
Oct 26 12:37:57 <raster> it gets boring after a while
Oct 26 12:37:58 <raster> then again
Oct 26 12:38:03 <raster> gfx hw is doing as full circule
Oct 26 12:38:09 <raster> went from cpu doing gfx
Oct 26 12:38:19 <raster> to specialised fixed-func silicon
Oct 26 12:38:19 <swetland> I've been heads down on our stuff for almost 4 years now, not spending much time looking at the other stuff going on
Oct 26 12:38:26 <raster> now gfx chips are general purpose "cpu's
Oct 26 12:38:28 <raster> doing gfx
Oct 26 12:38:33 <raster> and everyone si doing gfx in shaders
Oct 26 12:38:42 * swetland nods. the industry does keep going cyclical
Oct 26 12:38:55 <raster> it wont be long before gfx chips are just massively parallel chips with simple cores and direct ram access
Oct 26 12:38:58 <raster> in fact...
Oct 26 12:39:06 <raster> i am working on one of those
Oct 26 12:39:09 <raster> a co-processor
Oct 26 12:39:10 <swetland> as stuff moves off to specialized hw, back on to cpus, etc
Oct 26 12:39:14 <raster> it isnt even claiming to be a gfx chip
Oct 26 12:39:17 <raster> its a ram chip
Oct 26 12:39:32 <raster> literally 180nm dram - 8MB
Oct 26 12:39:41 <raster> with cpu's on it runing at hihg clockrate
Oct 26 12:39:48 <swetland> fun
Oct 26 12:39:53 <raster> u turn it into a gfx chip just with some code
Oct 26 12:40:14 <Wonka> 180nm - fucking big stuff!
Oct 26 12:40:52 <Wonka> raster: there needs to be some output engine too - a ramdac or something
Oct 26 12:41:54 <raster> Wonka:  i know. and even at 180nm my quick "apples vs apples" comparison put 1 of its cores at about 70% the speed of the 2442 in the fr at 400mhz
Oct 26 12:42:03 <raster> and it has 4 cores
Oct 26 12:42:09 <raster> and thats a first-gen chip
Oct 26 12:42:14 <raster> it also uses all of 32mw
Oct 26 12:42:22 <raster> and.. costs a fraction of even what the glamo costs
Oct 26 12:42:23 <raster> :)
Oct 26 12:42:40 <Wonka> what do we need the 2442 for?
Oct 26 12:42:54 <raster> technially u dont
Oct 26 12:43:01 <Wonka> :)
Oct 26 12:43:04 <raster> they're also looking at runing a complete os/system on it
Oct 26 12:43:15 <raster> but its firsat intent was a drop-in dram chip
Oct 26 12:43:18 <raster> u solder it on like any dram
Oct 26 12:43:23 <raster> no differnt
Oct 26 12:43:34 <raster> and the ram is just mapped in your memory space
Oct 26 12:43:40 <raster> and u write to it from the cpu
Oct 26 12:43:45 <raster> feed it data to process
Oct 26 12:43:51 <raster> get it back when its done
Oct 26 12:44:09 <raster> its a first-gen
Oct 26 12:44:15 <raster> the next gen is much mroe interesting
Oct 26 12:44:24 <Wonka> i seem to have missed what actual chip you are talking about...
Oct 26 12:44:27 <raster> as its goign to drop its process down
Oct 26 12:44:32 <raster> up clockrate a lot
Oct 26 12:44:36 <raster> and # of cores will explode
Oct 26 12:44:37 <methril|laptop> what are you talking about? i'm missing some hw?
Oct 26 12:44:37 <Wonka> even better
Oct 26 12:44:52 <raster> ie 64MB not 8, 64 processors, and 1ghz
Oct 26 12:45:01 <raster> thats the 2nd gen
Oct 26 12:45:02 <Wonka> with 32mW?
Oct 26 12:45:09 <raster> higher
Oct 26 12:45:15 <raster> itds 8mw per core in the existign design
Oct 26 12:45:17 <raster> well less than 8
Oct 26 12:45:25 <Wonka> still, if it's less than the 2442...
Oct 26 12:45:29 <raster> 8 is a pessimistic side
Oct 26 12:45:39 <raster> it should use msaybe half that per core
Oct 26 12:45:43 <raster> so 4mw/core
Oct 26 12:45:47 <raster> 4*64 (256mw)
Oct 26 12:45:54 <Wonka> still big fun
Oct 26 12:46:02 <raster> so at 1ghz
Oct 26 12:46:08 <Wonka> and cores that are not in use will not use power, i think
Oct 26 12:46:25 <raster> thats about 89 2442's worth of compute
Oct 26 12:46:30 <raster> at 256mw
Oct 26 12:46:37 <Wonka> yeah. gta04? ;)
Oct 26 12:46:39 <raster> and yes
Oct 26 12:46:43 <raster> cores can be stopped
Oct 26 12:46:46 <raster> and not use power
Oct 26 12:46:54 <raster> the problem is as a core os chip it has gotchas
Oct 26 12:47:02 <raster> rueght now no mmu
Oct 26 12:47:10 <raster> so no way to do virtual memory or memory protextion
Oct 26 12:47:13 <raster> no interrupts
Oct 26 12:47:18 <Wonka> mmh
Oct 26 12:47:20 <raster> its missing a lot of thnigs
Oct 26 12:47:30 <methril|laptop> do you have any link?
Oct 26 12:47:33 <raster> but as a cop-rocessor u throw stuff at to munch away on
Oct 26 12:47:35 <methril|laptop> i'd like to take a look
Oct 26 12:47:39 <raster> its really promising
Oct 26 12:47:44 <raster> nup
Oct 26 12:47:48 <raster> sorry
Oct 26 12:47:55 <raster> you should know more details in a few months
Oct 26 12:47:57 <Wonka> but it might be possible to hand it much stuff to do that the host processor wouldn't need to do then so it can sleep more often?
Oct 26 12:48:02 <methril|laptop> and some reference?
Oct 26 12:48:22 <raster> patent application
Oct 26 12:48:29 <methril|laptop> oh!! as allways :(
Oct 26 12:48:53 <Wonka> patented proc doesn't mean non-free docs automatically...
Oct 26 12:49:04 <raster> it doesnt
Oct 26 12:49:08 <raster> they want it all ot be open
Oct 26 12:49:09 <methril|laptop> yes, i know
Oct 26 12:49:13 <raster> already have an sdcc port
Oct 26 12:49:19 <raster> will do a gcc one after sdcc is stable
Oct 26 12:49:27 <methril|laptop> but all the HW companies tries to keep the docs under NDA
Oct 26 12:49:27 <raster> and otherwise all programming docs will be open
Oct 26 12:49:33 <methril|laptop> i hope it's n ot the case
Oct 26 12:49:34 <Wonka> raster: x server completely on that baby might be nice - only the part on the host that needs to do interrupt stuff
Oct 26 12:50:02 <raster> http://www.tomicpu.com/documents/patent_application.pdf
Oct 26 12:50:06 <raster> but it seems to be dead
Oct 26 12:50:07 <Wonka> ssl crypto acceleration
Oct 26 12:50:11 <methril|laptop> uhm!! nice, i like sdcc
Oct 26 12:50:13 <methril|laptop> :D
Oct 26 12:50:27 <raster> methril|laptop:  i simply have told u what i knew before i signed the nda
Oct 26 12:50:28 <raster> ie
Oct 26 12:50:32 <raster> the patent has most of that
Oct 26 12:50:39 <raster> i know a lot more thats beyond that now
Oct 26 12:50:53 <raster> i have the compielr ans sources and the emulator etc. here
Oct 26 12:51:06 <raster> i've played with it a bit - thus the ability to comapre with a 2442
Oct 26 12:51:07 <methril|laptop> well, thank you for the info, it's an interesting hw
Oct 26 12:51:14 <raster> admittedly thats comparing the simulator
Oct 26 12:51:20 <raster> and "assuming" thngs
Oct 26 12:51:44 <methril|laptop> it's the simulator available?
Oct 26 12:51:49 <methril|laptop> or closed sw too?
Oct 26 12:52:03 <Wonka> "simulator" like "spice"?
Oct 26 12:52:09 <Wonka> or more like "qemu"?
Oct 26 12:52:16 <raster> ummm
Oct 26 12:52:25 <raster> a bit of a bastard child of a cunch of thngs
Oct 26 12:52:32 <raster> but now w'ere in nda land :)
Oct 26 12:52:38 <methril|laptop> hehehe
Oct 26 12:52:40 <raster> methril|laptop:  its closed for now
Oct 26 12:52:53 <Wonka> i did some things at university with XilinX ISE...
Oct 26 12:52:54 <methril|laptop> i understarnd
Oct 26 12:53:02 <raster> WILL be open on release - iw when the silicon exists and the simulator has bugs ironed out
Oct 26 12:53:10 <Wonka> targeted on Spartan 3
Oct 26 12:53:17 <raster> anyweay
Oct 26 12:53:20 <raster> its a pretty cool chip
Oct 26 12:53:29 <raster> if this had existed this time last year
Oct 26 12:53:33 <methril|laptop> yes, it's something different
Oct 26 12:53:37 <raster> i'd have said "dump glamo - put this in"
Oct 26 12:53:40 <Wonka> yeah, with .2 W it won't get very warm :)
Oct 26 12:53:46 <raster> as its completely programmable
Oct 26 12:53:51 <raster> u could use it for gfx
Oct 26 12:53:51 <Wonka> raster: as I said, GTA04 :)
Oct 26 12:53:57 <raster> or for vidoe decoding
Oct 26 12:53:58 <raster> audio
Oct 26 12:54:11 <raster> for any compute tasks- especially if they walk through lots of ram
Oct 26 12:54:22 <Wonka> raster: OpenGL stuff! Compositing!
Oct 26 12:54:29 <raster> as the cpres are part of the dram itself they have really low latency access to ram
Oct 26 12:54:31 <raster> like hyper-low
Oct 26 12:54:32 <Wonka> raster: audio filtering, echo cancellation...
Oct 26 12:54:50 <viq> Isn't hardware for gta04 already decided?
Oct 26 12:54:51 <raster> so gfx is an obivous calling as its often high-bandwidht with lots of data flying about
Oct 26 12:54:52 * Wonka wants it too
Oct 26 12:55:09 <raster> and the cool bit is
Oct 26 12:55:17 <raster> u only need to do some of the acceleration and work
Oct 26 12:55:19 <Wonka> http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/GTA04 "no text"
Oct 26 12:55:21 <raster> as the docs are open
Oct 26 12:55:26 <raster> u do the most pressing big things
Oct 26 12:55:35 <raster> then the community can add mroe accel over time as they want/need
Oct 26 12:55:41 <raster> just by writing software for the accel
Oct 26 12:55:42 <raster> :)
Oct 26 12:55:50 <Wonka> http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/GTA04_revisions
Oct 26 12:55:53 <raster> so for an open development model it is perfect
Oct 26 12:55:58 <Wonka> »#  Based on a more advanced SoC
Oct 26 12:55:58 <raster> anyway
Oct 26 12:56:01 <Wonka> # maybe based on the samsung 6400 or 6410«
Oct 26 12:56:01 <raster> time to snooze
Oct 26 12:56:05 <Wonka> night
Oct 26 12:56:06 <raster> ciao!
Oct 26 12:56:17 <methril|laptop> ciao
Oct 26 12:56:26 <Wonka> that chip sounds big fun
Oct 26 12:56:28 <methril|laptop> we put presure :D
Oct 26 12:56:30 <viq> Wonka: there was some discussion on mailing lists regarding newer samsung chip vs some OMAP thing, and it was basically "Yeah, sorry, it was already decided we'll go with the samsung chip, maybe next one could have it"
Oct 26 12:56:30 <methril|laptop> looks
Oct 26 12:56:45 <Wonka> viq: ok, then gta05...
Oct 26 12:56:51 <methril|laptop> hehehe
Oct 26 12:57:07 <methril|laptop> but they could use this chip with the samsung
Oct 26 12:57:07 <Wonka> with 64 cores and 1GHz that one should be real fun in "normal" PCs too
Oct 26 12:57:38 <methril|laptop> it like a accel chip with more capabilities :)
Oct 26 12:58:13 <Wonka> 64MB, 64 cores - makes 1024 cores with 1024MB video ram. don't know if current ATI or NVIDIA could match that...
Oct 26 12:58:52 <Wonka> also, crypto-stuff, video decoding, video encoding, ...
Oct 26 12:58:55 <Wonka> big big fun
Oct 26 12:59:28 <lindi-> i thought xilinx fpga always required proprietary stuff to work
Oct 26 12:59:43 <methril|laptop> not now lindi-
Oct 26 12:59:55 <methril|laptop> you have some "open" tools
Oct 26 13:00:03 <methril|laptop> the ISE is free to download
Oct 26 13:00:06 <lindi-> methril|laptop: DFSG?
Oct 26 13:00:26 <Ke> I think you guys whoever does this gta04 should really work on PR
Oct 26 13:01:10 <Ke> after several hours of researh I still would have no idea in what state openmoko is
Oct 26 13:01:28 <Ke> or target hardware
Oct 26 13:01:31 <lindi-> methril|laptop: i don't really care about free to download if i can't modify it and give it to others
Oct 26 13:01:52 <lindi-> Ke: openmoko inc., the software they make or the hardware?
Oct 26 13:02:21 <methril|laptop> http://www.xilinx.com/ise/logic_design_prod/webpack.htm
Oct 26 13:02:26 <Wonka> Ke: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/GTA04_revisions
Oct 26 13:02:28 <methril|laptop> lindi- take a look on it
Oct 26 13:02:36 <Ke> lindi-: I don't know because the openmoko.com/openmoko.org is in such a horrible state
Oct 26 13:02:42 <Wonka> Ke: wasnt that hard after looking where "GTA03" redirected
Oct 26 13:03:20 <lindi-> methril|laptop: it wants me to create an account
Oct 26 13:03:49 <Ke> Wonka: from where?
Oct 26 13:04:02 <lindi-> methril|laptop: does that software really meet DFSG (http://www.debian.org/social_contract)?
Oct 26 13:04:03 <methril|laptop> well, you could do a dummy one
Oct 26 13:04:10 <methril|laptop> i don't know
Oct 26 13:04:23 <Wonka> Ke: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/GTA03 redirects to http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/GTA03_revisions
Oct 26 13:04:26 <lindi-> methril|laptop: since it doesn't surely look like it
Oct 26 13:04:33 <Wonka> Ke: trying http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/GTA04_revisions then was no big step for me
Oct 26 13:04:38 * hipitihop waves to the inmates
Oct 26 13:05:43 <lindi-> methril|laptop: of course i'd love to be proven wrong in this case
Oct 26 13:06:04 <methril|laptop> give me time to take a look :)
Oct 26 13:06:18 <hipitihop> Can someone point me to instructions on how to correctly install the minimal kernel module set from http://moko.mwester.net/dl.html#kernels
Oct 26 13:06:21 <methril|laptop> i know that you could program the FPGAs "free"
Oct 26 13:06:34 <hipitihop> I have qtextended 4.4.2
Oct 26 13:06:34 <Ke> Wonka: for instance I heard rumours that parts of graphics hardware for freerunner had no docs and no one was actually developing drivers
Oct 26 13:06:40 <lindi-> hipitihop: i don't know what "free" is
Oct 26 13:06:48 <lindi-> methril|laptop: sorry, meant you ^
Oct 26 13:06:56 <lindi-> methril|laptop: you better define your terms :)
Oct 26 13:06:59 <mjr> Ke, that's pretty correct
Oct 26 13:07:13 <Ke> Wonka: getting information about such things could be a bit easier
Oct 26 13:20:54 <CIA-49> freesmartphone.org: 03morphis * r306 10/trunk/umaf/python-elementary/ (. src/ src/elementary.pxd src/elementary.pyx src/window.pxd): Added python elementary bindings
Oct 26 13:22:48 <_Bill_> hipitihop: 4.4.2??
Oct 26 13:23:19 <CIA-49> freesmartphone.org: 03seeseekey * r307 10/trunk/ (python-elementary/ umaf/python-elementary/):
Oct 26 13:23:39 <ronny> hmm, ew svn 
Oct 26 13:25:14 <hipitihop> _Bill_, yes that's what it reports but listed as 4.4.1  on qtextened download site
Oct 26 13:26:39 <_Bill_> hipitihop: on gta02?
Oct 26 13:26:47 <hipitihop> yes
Oct 26 13:27:17 <_Bill_> cause the gta02 image i see, is the same i have on mine atm.. and this is for sure 4.4.1
Oct 26 13:27:27 <_Bill_> from 2008/10/03
Oct 26 13:28:28 <hipitihop> yes same, but poking around somewhere it says it is 4.4.2 unless I'm w...w....wrong
Oct 26 13:30:06 <Zorkman> hipitihop: you're not wrong
Oct 26 13:30:20 <Zorkman> mine aslo did that
Oct 26 13:30:35 <_Bill_> hmh.. let me boot mine up
Oct 26 13:30:37 <Zorkman> and i was 100% sure i downloaded 4.4.1; so don't worry about it
Oct 26 13:30:51 <_Bill_> lorn goofs us all :)
Oct 26 13:31:10 <Shlee> it doesn't matter.. its 4.4.2 BUT
Oct 26 13:31:25 <Shlee> that release is real unstable.. so wait afew weeks for the next release
Oct 26 13:32:01 <hipitihop> Zorkman, are you running uImage-gta02-g291a9d50_mwester-stable.bin ?
Oct 26 13:32:05 <_Bill_> Shlee: i do agree with that
Oct 26 13:32:18 <Zorkman> hipitihop: yes
Oct 26 13:32:30 <_Bill_> tried that for some days and moved back to my old handy..
Oct 26 13:32:37 <Zorkman> well,  i rAn it, installed FDOM now
Oct 26 13:32:48 <hipitihop> Zorkman, did you also install the minimal modules tgz ?
Oct 26 13:32:49 <_Bill_> fdom was seriously slow for me..
Oct 26 13:32:53 <Zorkman> i have the bouncing calypso bug so that image was of not much use for me
Oct 26 13:33:03 <Zorkman> hipitihop: yes
Oct 26 13:33:33 <hipitihop> Shlee, what are the instabilities ?
Oct 26 13:37:57 <_Bill_> indeed.. system info shows qtextended 4.4.2 (c) by Nokia and built by: lpotter@dropbear
Oct 26 13:38:05 <_Bill_> polarbear
Oct 26 13:38:17 <Shlee> lol drop bear
Oct 26 13:38:36 <_Bill_> there's a new buildhost name for you, lorn :)
Oct 26 13:39:36 <Shlee> Australias love the dropbear myth.
Oct 26 13:39:48 <SpeedEvil> ssh!
Oct 26 13:40:10 <hipitihop> it's not a myth :-)
Oct 26 13:42:04 <hipitihop> Shlee, I've been running 4.4.2 and while it has some annoying things I could hardly say it is unstable.
Oct 26 13:43:54 <hipitihop> Shlee, care to elaborate ?
Oct 26 13:45:17 <Shlee> GUI crashes, bouncing calypso, sms cloning, sms full, battery life is lower than 3.4
Oct 26 13:47:33 <hipitihop> is there a feed for any updates or must we wait for full release
Oct 26 13:48:10 <Shlee> not receiving calls/SMS and requiring a reboot
Oct 26 13:51:34 <_Bill_> i just started wondering.. how difficult would be creating a script to port ispell dictionarys for raster keyboard..
Oct 26 14:09:16 <Zorkman> anybody else has some problems with epdf viewer in FDOM?
Oct 26 14:09:30 <Zorkman> when opening the program it asks for a password
Oct 26 14:15:57 <nemik> how do you guys run the qemu emulator? with custom builds? i'm trying with the daily snapshots and have problems
Oct 26 14:16:46 <nemik> everytime i tell uboot to boot to kernel, it starts, checksums returns OK, then instead of booting into the kernel it instantly goes back to u-boot. and it's stuck in this loop. anyone encounter this?
Oct 26 14:17:37 <AJuOnLiNE|sh> nemik: if you get it working tell me too :P
Oct 26 14:17:52 <nemik> hey!
Oct 26 14:18:06 <nemik> same issue?
Oct 26 14:18:44 <AJuOnLiNE|sh> nemik: i tried once. but didnt dig further. i have an unusable build of qtopia running by default.
Oct 26 14:18:54 <nemik> i only got it working once, with the super-old 2007 images that seems completely broken anyway.
Oct 26 14:18:59 <nemik> yea, that was the one
Oct 26 14:24:10 <AlexBkk> Hello there. Does anyone have updated info about multiplexing?
Oct 26 14:33:00 <AlexBkk> I would like to have gprs working, but the wiki is outdated
Oct 26 14:33:10 <AlexBkk> any help?
Oct 26 14:40:30 <AlexBkk> Does anyone else have problems using gprs?
Oct 26 14:40:54 <Zorkman> never tried it
Oct 26 14:41:54 <valos[fr]> works for me under FSO using sephora
Oct 26 14:43:57 <AlexBkk> thanks, I was trying to use in OM 2008.9
Oct 26 14:48:30 <Hydrant> Hey all... my neo has been on a shelf for a couple of months (been busy)... I plugged it into a charger overnight, and it won't turn on... I tried taking out the battery and it won't power on without it... so I tried a different USB cable other than the official openmoko charger, and same thing... ideas ?
Oct 26 14:49:58 <Zorkman> hydrant: have you tried to boot into NOR?
Oct 26 14:50:05 <Zorkman> hold aux and then power
Oct 26 14:50:08 <_Bill_> probably the battery is drained
Oct 26 14:50:11 <Zorkman> while battery in and plugged in
Oct 26 14:51:05 <Zorkman> otherwise insert battery, hook FR on pc with the USB cable (directly, not through a hub) and wait some time.. some people reported it worked again if they followed this procedure
Oct 26 14:51:17 <_Bill_> either charge your battery with some compatible nokia or just put the compatible nokias battery in for boot time, then connect the charger and change the batter to your dead one.. should start charging :)
Oct 26 14:51:29 <_Bill_> Zorkman: wasn't charging handled in kernel?
Oct 26 14:51:38 <_Bill_> i seem to recall something along the lines
Oct 26 14:51:58 <Zorkman> _Bill_: yes but it seemed it would trickle charge a bit when just connected through usb
Oct 26 14:52:14 <Hydrant> okay... let me try that... aux and power
Oct 26 14:52:26 <_Bill_> hmh.. Zorkman you might be right...
Oct 26 14:52:28 <Zorkman> once i couldn't get my FR to boot because of a drained battery and nothing worked for me, except booting into NOR, that worked without problem strangely enough
Oct 26 14:52:53 <Zorkman> once in NOR i could boot the FR and the battery would start charging
Oct 26 14:53:05 <_Bill_> weird..
Oct 26 14:53:52 <Hydrant> nothing for me yet... let me get my charger and try that... I also have spare batteries somewhere (I got them with my thing)
Oct 26 14:55:28 <Pander> Does anyone know what the size is of an application icon? 80x80, 120x120 or 128x128
Oct 26 14:58:04 <Hydrant> nothing... I tried taking out the SD card and sim card, still not working :-(
Oct 26 14:58:20 <Zorkman> :(
Oct 26 14:58:32 <Zorkman> try to leave it plugged in like i said for while
Oct 26 15:00:45 <Zorkman> is pidgin no longer in the feeds?
Oct 26 15:00:54 <AlexBkk> 80x80 pixels is fine, but a larger icon will be scaled anyway
Oct 26 15:00:55 <Zorkman> de we need to download it from rabenfrost? 
Oct 26 15:01:47 <Hydrant> just plugged into the PC via USB ?
Oct 26 15:05:22 <slaxxin> surley 1 of those batterys has some power
Oct 26 15:12:01 <bove2> Just downloaded the latest fso yesterday, but there are no icons for bluetooth, gsm, gps, wifi... like it says in http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FSO_UI_Tutorial
Oct 26 15:14:13 <bove2> so how can I for instance turn on bluettoth?
Oct 26 15:14:54 <mwester> Hydrant:  plug it into anything at all; in its current state it doesn't matter how much power the host end has to supply, just that it can supply any at all. :(
Oct 26 15:15:35 <Zorkman> mwester: do you know if the FR will ever be able to charge like a "normal phone" when the battery is empty?
Oct 26 15:17:02 <mwester> Zorkman:  I guess that's a matter of opinion; some seem to be of the belief that it is "close enough", as the GTA03 uses the very same broken power management chip that permits the device to get into this broken state.
Oct 26 15:17:21 <Hydrant> hrrm
Oct 26 15:17:27 <Hydrant> kinda sucks
Oct 26 15:17:35 <Hydrant> maybe I can charge the battery in a compatible phone first ?
Oct 26 15:18:15 <SpeedEvil> A perfectly workable solution in theory is to turn the phone off completely at bat = 10%
Oct 26 15:18:34 <mwester> In my opinion, no, the fundamental flaw is in the hardware, and while recent u-boots have made it so that it is very unlikely that you'll get the PMU chip into this state, it is still possible.  For example, if the little backup battery goes flat, and the real battery goes flat, then the phone is in a state where it will not charge at all .
Oct 26 15:19:13 <leinir> Fundamental design flaws ftw... ;)
Oct 26 15:19:27 <Zorkman> bah
Oct 26 15:19:50 <mwester> SpeedEvil:  that presumes that the two batteries do not self-discharge completely; evidence already indicates that it is very possible for both to discharge to a level that causes the PMU to reset.
Oct 26 15:20:08 <mwester> Such a case is just to leave the unit in a desk drawer for a few months.
Oct 26 15:20:22 <SpeedEvil> I'm not saying it's good.
Oct 26 15:20:27 <mwester> Hydrant:  Yes, charge the battery in something that can charge a Nokia battery.
Oct 26 15:20:39 <SpeedEvil> mwester: only in cheap chargetrs
Oct 26 15:21:03 <mwester> Expensive chargers sense a non-nokia battery?
Oct 26 15:21:40 * mwester kicks electronics manufacturers for each inventing their own proprietary batteries.
Oct 26 15:22:14 * Zorkman adds his boot
Oct 26 15:22:41 <mwester> mickey! get to work!!!   :p
Oct 26 15:22:50 <mickey|relaXing> :D
Oct 26 15:23:02 <mickey|relaXing> me needs a couple of months break...
Oct 26 15:23:19 <mwester> You need to stay home for a few weeks, I would think.
Oct 26 15:24:27 <Hydrant> hooray!
Oct 26 15:24:33 <Hydrant> fresh battery worked just fine
Oct 26 15:24:47 <Hydrant> okay... that's a really annoying issue.. I presume there is a bug report on this already ?
Oct 26 15:27:39 <Zorkman> Hydrant: I don't know about a bug report but it is avery well known issue
Oct 26 15:27:43 <Zorkman> there is a wiki page about it also
Oct 26 15:28:21 <Hydrant> okay, so long as it's known... I thought I forgot how to turn the thing on for a minute :-(
Oct 26 15:29:40 <Hydrant> thanks all... I have to take off
Oct 26 15:30:06 <Zorkman> I'm using x11vnc on the FR and it works nicely, the only problem is speed...
Oct 26 15:30:22 <Zorkman> is there a way to speed it up?
Oct 26 15:34:45 <SpeedEvil> displaying on FR, or desktop
Oct 26 15:34:53 <Zorkman> on desktop
Oct 26 15:35:11 <Zorkman> (i'm btw very pleased by the way everything works)
Oct 26 15:36:27 <Zorkman> I run it on my FR with the command xterm -e x11vnc -display :0.0 -ncache 10
Oct 26 15:50:31 <DocScrutinizer> mwester: nope, when bupbat and mainbat go flat, phone still charges if it can boot from usb (without bat). That's the case with all A6 versions, which have the bigger cap on Vsys
Oct 26 15:52:32 <Zorkman> DocScrutinizer: and for those with an A5?
Oct 26 15:54:10 <DocScrutinizer> depends. If it can boot without mainbat, it also will charge a drained bat. If it doesn't boot, it depemds on state of charger when last powerdown happened, and whether bupbat is still alive. If bupbat really is down too, you're deadlocked though
Oct 26 15:56:19 <DocScrutinizer> some A5 boot one time out of 5 or 10, without bat. Some boot without problem. Some never will
Oct 26 15:57:56 <Zorkman> hmm, thanks, i always try to be very carefull, but sometimes the FR goes crazy and discharges when you blink :)
Oct 26 16:10:23 <DocScrutinizer> sometimes samsung SGH-i900 OMNIA windoof freezes and bat discharges while device gets hot, even when hooked up on charger. You see this isn't an issue solely known to OM phones. Actually our phone can charge without system being up at all.
Oct 26 16:11:36 <DocScrutinizer> we just need the system (or uBoot) to configure the PMU to do the actual charging task
Oct 26 16:12:43 <Zorkman> are there plans to fix this in the future? 
Oct 26 16:12:49 <DocScrutinizer> so A6 is even better than OMNIA
Oct 26 16:12:59 <DocScrutinizer> fix what?
Oct 26 16:13:37 <DocScrutinizer> all A8 boot with dead bat, so all A6 will charge
Oct 26 16:13:42 <Zorkman> the problems for A5 with booting/charging the empty batteries
Oct 26 16:13:52 <DocScrutinizer> s/A8/A6/
Oct 26 16:13:53 <apt> DocScrutinizer meant: all A6 boot with dead bat, so all A6 will charge
Oct 26 16:15:15 <DocScrutinizer> you could replace the 47uF inside (piggybacked) by a 100uF
Oct 26 16:15:25 <DocScrutinizer> inside big can
Oct 26 16:17:51 <tomboy64> is there something special bout making 2008.9 display icons for apps?
Oct 26 16:18:10 <tomboy64> i added an "Icon=myownicon" to the desktop file
Oct 26 16:18:16 <tomboy64> how do i get this displayed?
Oct 26 16:18:39 <tomboy64> oh, and myownicon.png is listed in /usr/share/pixmaps
Oct 26 16:19:41 <Zorkman> tomboy64: is the rest of your *.desktop file correct?
Oct 26 16:19:49 <Zorkman> especially the categories stuff
Oct 26 16:20:16 <Zorkman> if it can't find/read the icon you just get a blank icon, if there is something wrong in your *.desktop file it doesn't display at all
Oct 26 16:20:28 <tomboy64> it does display
Oct 26 16:21:27 <tomboy64> well
Oct 26 16:21:29 <tomboy64> the app
Oct 26 16:21:33 <tomboy64> but it has a black icon
Oct 26 16:21:45 <tomboy64> i took my xterm icon ...
Oct 26 16:21:49 <tomboy64> Icon=xterm
Oct 26 16:21:54 <tomboy64> it works for xterm.desktop
Oct 26 16:27:28 <AlexBkk> Does anyone know how to install a dictionary in OM?
Oct 26 16:27:35 <AlexBkk> For example stardict
Oct 26 16:28:47 <Zorkman> not me
Oct 26 16:30:41 <AlexBkk> I'm very happy in general with my phone, but there are so many things that I would like to do and don't know yet how
Oct 26 16:33:40 <Zorkman> do you use it as a phone? (your daily phone)
Oct 26 16:33:58 <AlexBkk> yes, I try to
Oct 26 16:34:09 <Zorkman> what distro are you running?
Oct 26 16:34:18 <AlexBkk> OM 2008.9
Oct 26 16:34:33 <AlexBkk> how about you?
Oct 26 16:34:51 <Zorkman> meh, reflashing every day or so :)
Oct 26 16:35:22 <Zorkman> qtopia is best as a daily phone for me, but due to gsm constantly re-registering not yet there yet, next update will have the sleep=2 AT command i guess and i'll see if that is better
Oct 26 16:35:37 <Zorkman> currently playing with FDOM
Oct 26 16:35:54 <AlexBkk> have you tried debian yet?
Oct 26 16:36:05 <Zorkman> nope, that's the only one i haven't tried yet
Oct 26 16:36:23 <Zorkman> don't know why, but it doesn't appeal to me
Oct 26 16:36:27 <AlexBkk> I haven't tried anything besides 2008.9, I want to get used to it first
Oct 26 16:36:39 <_Bill_> debian has some issues..
Oct 26 16:37:00 <Zorkman> _Bill_: it's the FR, EVEYTHING has "some issues" :)
Oct 26 16:37:10 <AlexBkk> yes, I used debian in my notebook some time ago, never managed to configure everything
Oct 26 16:37:48 <AlexBkk> maybe there should be some "mokubuntu"
Oct 26 16:38:28 <_Bill_> they may be historical and stuff but i still get nightmares.. "I have to install 100 servers and i only have potato CD and dselect"
Oct 26 16:39:35 <lindi-> _Bill_: what kind of issues?
Oct 26 16:40:10 <_Bill_> lindi-: for me they are historical and painful... read my last comment about nightmares
Oct 26 16:40:43 <AlexBkk> _Bill_: so you are talking about times before the apt-get?
Oct 26 16:41:07 <_Bill_> well.. apt-get was introduced in woody i think..
Oct 26 16:41:27 <_Bill_> but you still had to do your installation package-management with dselect :(
Oct 26 16:41:39 <AlexBkk> sorry I never used debian before sarge
Oct 26 16:41:49 <_Bill_> and from these days on.. the world has never been the same
Oct 26 16:42:07 <_Bill_> but generally.. indeed.. debian is just another distro
Oct 26 16:42:22 <Zorkman> what mediaplayer is best in 2008.9? i find pythm is very slow
Oct 26 16:42:24 <_Bill_> they are weird in some sense.. especially their puritan legal department... 
Oct 26 16:42:33 <lindi-> _Bill_: nope, i used apt-get in potato
Oct 26 16:42:42 <_Bill_> lindi-: not during install
Oct 26 16:43:02 <_Bill_> and i think it wasn't in the main distro.. altho i may be wring
Oct 26 16:43:04 <_Bill_> wrong
Oct 26 16:43:10 <TeLLuS> How do I access when ssh, terminal and installer do not want to start?  Only get portmap on port 111. Reflash the last and only option?  On om2008.9 after installing the gsmmuxer and libs from ångström dist, trying to get gprs going.   Booting on SD probably a bit hard without cardreader. Any more options? single-user mode?
Oct 26 16:43:32 <lindi-> _Bill_: it was added in slink
Oct 26 16:44:12 <lindi-> _Bill_: i have a slink machine here. '$ apt-get --version' => 'apt 0.3.11 for i386 compiled on Aug  8 1999  10:12:36'
Oct 26 16:44:17 <_Bill_> true.. just dug up as much.. but i don't recall when they changed the installer not to use dselect
Oct 26 16:44:33 <AlexBkk> TeLLuS: I just broke my system yesterday that same way, trying to make gprs work with packages from angstrom
Oct 26 16:44:47 <AlexBkk> I didn't know how to fix it
Oct 26 16:45:04 <Nets> OpenMoko in a palmOne Lifedrive!!!
Oct 26 16:45:10 <mickey|bloodpres> yay!
Oct 26 16:45:12 <mickey|bloodpres> congrats
Oct 26 16:45:42 <lindi-> _Bill_: with 100 servers you really want to just do one installation rsync it to the other 199
Oct 26 16:45:56 <tomboy64> :-D
Oct 26 16:46:04 <_Bill_> dselect Documentation for Beginners 
Oct 26 16:46:06 <_Bill_> Abstract This document contains is a short tutorial for first-time users of dselect, console Debian package handling frontend. It supplements the Installation Manual for Debian GNU/Linux 3.0.
Oct 26 16:46:08 <tomboy64> 100 servers and 199 rsyncs?
Oct 26 16:46:12 <tomboy64> :-D
Oct 26 16:46:31 <_Bill_> so in woody it still was default package manager
Oct 26 16:47:00 <lindi-> depends on what default means, i didn't need to touch dselect at all
Oct 26 16:47:22 <_Bill_> well.. i take it that i was a debian-noob..
Oct 26 16:47:46 <AlexBkk> TeLLuS: what I finally did is use dfu-util to save a copy of my filesystem in my pc, then reflash a new OM2008.9 and use the saved copy to reconstruct a few configuration files. A lot of work anyway, hopefully there's some better way
Oct 26 16:47:52 <_Bill_> anyway i've avoided debian since i was first molested my dselect
Oct 26 16:47:54 <_Bill_> by
Oct 26 16:48:00 <lindi-> _Bill_: but my boss used dselect for a long time since he started had used it before apt existed
Oct 26 16:48:55 <_Bill_> lindi-: maybe i'm just not dselect guy.. just like i'm not a emacs guy :)
Oct 26 16:49:28 <TeLLuS> AlexBkk: Probably have to recompile the muxer for already installed libs..   ok, preparing for a reflash. I have only flashed it once before when I got it. I guess its time again. Thanks..
Oct 26 16:50:05 <lindi-> _Bill_: heh
Oct 26 16:50:15 <lindi-> _Bill_: sure there are issues with debian but given my priorities it seems to fit best
Oct 26 16:50:25 * TeLLuS use dselect almost every day..   Since pre hamm days.. I guess.
Oct 26 16:50:26 <AlexBkk> I wonder if you can fix your file system after copying to your PC, then reflash it back?
Oct 26 16:50:35 <_Bill_> well.. i've tried almost every major core distro in the world... i think..
Oct 26 16:51:17 <_Bill_> from redhat 5.0 through debian, slackware, caldera, mandake, suse.. various source-based distros...
Oct 26 16:51:31 <_Bill_> and suse seems to fit my need these days...
Oct 26 16:51:32 <TeLLuS> AlexBkk: Probably, but I think its faster to install again..
Oct 26 16:51:48 <AlexBkk> That's what I did, yes
Oct 26 16:52:20 <AlexBkk> but still don't have any idea of how to configure the gprs, that's why I came here
Oct 26 16:52:56 <lindi-> _Bill_: didn't suse use to do some proprietary software?
Oct 26 16:53:00 <tomboy64> _Bill_: i'm quite content with gentoo
Oct 26 16:53:03 <lindi-> _Bill_: or do i remember wrong?
Oct 26 16:53:14 <AlexBkk> TeLLuS: you say the muxer should be recompiled?
Oct 26 16:53:28 <lindi-> tomboy64: i found it difficult to avoid proprietary software in gentoo
Oct 26 16:53:40 <_Bill_> suse, nope.. SuSE was the first german linux distro.. basicly slackware with rpm
Oct 26 16:53:54 <_Bill_> novell, who owns suse now, had its netware 
Oct 26 16:53:58 <Zorkman> AlexBkk: you followed the wiki?
Oct 26 16:54:06 <Zorkman> http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/GPRS
Oct 26 16:54:21 <_Bill_> tomboy64: gentoo is just another debian :)
Oct 26 16:54:37 <AlexBkk> Zorkman: I tried, but the wiki referst to a script that is not available anymore
Oct 26 16:55:03 <AlexBkk> I couldn't find what exactly the script did
Oct 26 16:55:10 <lindi-> _Bill_: wasn't YaST proprietary?
Oct 26 16:55:32 <tomboy64> _Bill_: uh, i hate debian :-P
Oct 26 16:55:41 <AlexBkk> and anyway, when I tried to install the muxer (and dependencies) from angstrom, my system didn't like it
Oct 26 16:55:58 <_Bill_> yast, nope
Oct 26 16:56:11 <lindi-> _Bill_: http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse/1998-03/msg00002.html says there was no source code available
Oct 26 16:56:13 <tomboy64> AlexBkk: lots of stuff from the angstrom repos is incompatible with the 2008 distro
Oct 26 16:56:14 <lindi-> _Bill_: for yast
Oct 26 16:56:23 <_Bill_> ow.. that was before my suse time :)
Oct 26 16:56:42 <_Bill_> at that time i was still a happy redhatter
Oct 26 16:57:16 <_Bill_> YaST is free software that Novell has made available under the GPL.
Oct 26 16:57:25 <AlexBkk> tomboy64: yes, I learnt it the hard way. I'm trying not to use angstrom if some packages would be upgraded
Oct 26 16:57:31 <lindi-> _Bill_: perhaps now
Oct 26 16:57:36 <lindi-> _Bill_: but in 1998 it wasn't?
Oct 26 16:57:45 <_Bill_> i wouldn't know.. really..
Oct 26 16:57:46 <tomboy64> AlexBkk: remove it from your repos.
Oct 26 16:58:01 <_Bill_> i'm trying to find some timeline...
Oct 26 16:58:02 <AlexBkk> thanks, I did that already
Oct 26 16:58:02 <TeLLuS> AlexBkk: I guess so since I was made with other libraries..     I found the script file but it was nothing really special..    Maybe the gui to controll it, that I did not use. Also had to customize the gpe startup and not only replace it..
Oct 26 16:58:03 <tomboy64> AlexBkk: download the stuff seperately from their site
Oct 26 16:58:26 <_Bill_> yup.. wasnt
Oct 26 16:58:29 <_Bill_> http://en.opensuse.org/YaST/History
Oct 26 16:58:38 <_Bill_> GPL'ed in 2004
Oct 26 16:58:39 <tomboy64> did you guys manage to do it with 2008's muxer?
Oct 26 16:58:53 <tomboy64> or did you use gsm0710muxd as detailed in the wiki?
Oct 26 16:59:04 <lindi-> _Bill_: so it seems
Oct 26 16:59:06 <AlexBkk> I didn't try because the wiki says it won't work
Oct 26 16:59:43 <TeLLuS> Maybe we should try now..
Oct 26 16:59:51 <bove2> how do you add shortcuts to the home screen on 2008.9?
Oct 26 17:00:44 <tomboy64> AlexBkk: huh?
Oct 26 17:00:50 <AlexBkk> bove2: I learned that from section 4 of http://www.unixarea.de/openmoko.txt
Oct 26 17:01:01 <Zorkman> bove2: add an *.deskot file in /usr/share/applications/
Oct 26 17:01:21 <Zorkman> i mean a *.desktop
Oct 26 17:01:32 <Zorkman> just edit an existing one and save it under a different name
Oct 26 17:01:53 <AlexBkk> tomboy64: sorry, maybe I didn't understand your question
Oct 26 17:02:38 <tomboy64> AlexBkk: do you have gprs running? if yes, with the gui? if so, which tutorial did you use?
Oct 26 17:03:08 <AlexBkk> tomboy64: no, sorry, I still have no idea of how to get it running
Oct 26 17:04:13 <AlexBkk> tomboy64: I tried to follow the first tutorial, but the packages from angstrom broke my system and I had to reflash
Oct 26 17:04:20 <bove2> Zorkman: thanks
Oct 26 17:04:26 <parodyoflanguage> Any news on the next gen openmoko phone?
Oct 26 17:05:34 <AlexBkk> tomboy64: can you use gprs?
Oct 26 17:06:05 <tomboy64> uhm
Oct 26 17:06:06 <Schugy> next gen? it would be next gen with a new soc
Oct 26 17:06:16 <tomboy64> i tried the one on the wiki halfways
Oct 26 17:06:29 <tomboy64> but the gsm0710muxd misses the init-script
Oct 26 17:06:36 <tomboy64> and i was too lazy to get an old one
Oct 26 17:07:09 <parodyoflanguage> Schugy: new soc?
Oct 26 17:07:44 <Schugy> system on a chip
Oct 26 17:07:52 <Schugy> it's Samsung at the moment
Oct 26 17:07:57 <PBeck> hallo
Oct 26 17:08:04 <parodyoflanguage> oh
Oct 26 17:08:15 <parodyoflanguage> Schugy: Thanks for answering my stupid question :)
Oct 26 17:08:20 <Schugy> adding a camera isn't really next gen
Oct 26 17:09:11 <mickey|bbl> who did http://scap.linuxtogo.org/files/4b297af16a14903d8d73ab9cd5944b11.png ?
Oct 26 17:09:14 <mickey|bbl> anyone here?
Oct 26 17:09:30 <mickey|bbl> s/anyone/the one/
Oct 26 17:09:30 <apt> mickey|bbl meant: the one here?
Oct 26 17:09:41 <parodyoflanguage> Schugy: Well, I probably should have asked about the phone in development after neo freerunner.
Oct 26 17:11:01 <Schugy> I knew what you wanted to know :-)
Oct 26 17:11:05 <Schugy> gta 03
Oct 26 17:11:38 <TeLLuS> tomboy64: Misses init.d? Did you only use the included gsmmuxer-version?  Maybe we could try with init file from ångström..
Oct 26 17:14:13 <parodyoflanguage> So is the neo freerunner going to eventually become an actual mass market product?
Oct 26 17:15:28 <AlexBkk> TeLLuS: where did you find the script mentioned in the wiki?
Oct 26 17:15:55 <TeLLuS> AlexBkk: Google on Internet.. :)
Oct 26 17:16:02 <AlexBkk> ohhh
Oct 26 17:17:34 <bove2> parodyoflanguage: At least not the gta02. I think some of the idea is to make a basis for other devices. Look for instance at the neopwn
Oct 26 17:18:31 <parodyoflanguage> bove2: Thanks for answering.
Oct 26 17:18:51 <parodyoflanguage> See...I'm really thinking of buying one but I'm not sure if I should wait or not.
Oct 26 17:19:03 <Zorkman> does anybody have a version of mokopedia/kiwix running?
Oct 26 17:54:54 <Zorkman> does anybody in here know how we can make our own splash screens?
Oct 26 17:56:59 <lindi-> Zorkman: do you know how the current ones are done?
Oct 26 17:57:38 <Zorkman> nope, that's why I'm asking
Oct 26 17:57:54 <lindi-> Zorkman: what exactly is a splash screen?
Oct 26 17:58:33 <Zorkman> when you boot the FR, you get a splash screen, an image that is shown for a short period
Oct 26 17:58:34 <pelifante> Zorkman: i guess you draw a png or something in gimp, you upload it to the neo and store it somewhere in /usr/share/something
Oct 26 17:58:44 <Zorkman> you can reflash it with dfu-util
Oct 26 17:58:53 <lindi-> Zorkman: is it uboot that shows it?
Oct 26 17:59:06 <pelifante> Zorkman: ah, the u-boot splashscreen
Oct 26 17:59:15 <Kensan> there's a wiki page
Oct 26 17:59:24 <Kensan> it you are talking about the splashscreen from u-boot
Oct 26 17:59:28 <Zorkman> not sure, it is omething that you see while uboot is doing "its thing"
Oct 26 17:59:42 <pelifante> Zorkman: again, you draw it, you display it on the neo, you dump the framebuffer into a file, you gzip it, you flash it and voila :)
Oct 26 17:59:57 <Kensan> Zorkman: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Splash_screen
Oct 26 18:00:20 <pelifante> cat /dev/fb0 > file then gzip file, the dfu-util -a splash -D file.gz or something
Oct 26 18:00:22 <Zorkman> Kensan: thanks i just found it
Oct 26 18:01:44 <Kensan> Zorkman: if the image is too big you may need to adjust uboot env splashimg size
Oct 26 18:02:13 <Zorkman> Kensan: one question though, it says that i hve to use setenv if the size is not exaxlty 0x5000
Oct 26 18:02:54 <Zorkman> ah, nevermind
Oct 26 18:02:55 <Zorkman> thanks
Oct 26 18:47:25 <JaMa> Is there some restriction on ext2 fs size for u-boot?
Oct 26 18:48:06 <JaMa> I cannot read partition bigger than 512MB.. ext2ls in u-boot prompt always return empty
Oct 26 18:48:32 <JaMa> 2 partitions on the same SD card work ok
Oct 26 19:00:26 <Shrimpy_> what is the command to connect to an open network?
Oct 26 19:00:51 <lindi-> iwconfig eth0 essid $essid
Oct 26 19:00:54 <lindi-> ifconfig eth0 up
Oct 26 19:00:57 <lindi-> dhclient -d eth0
Oct 26 19:01:20 <Shrimpy_> lindi-: thanks
Oct 26 19:03:43 <Shrimpy_> lindi-: after the last command it keeps reaping discover and request
Oct 26 19:04:07 <Shrimpy_> repeating
Oct 26 19:04:30 <CIA-50> freesmartphone.org: 03sudharsh 07openmoko-gsoc2008 * r9961c94c9cb7 10/fsod/src/ (6 files in 4 dirs): 
Oct 26 19:04:30 <CIA-50> freesmartphone.org: 1.) Fixed an issue where the subsystem instances gets destroyed prematurely
Oct 26 19:04:30 <CIA-50> freesmartphone.org: 2.) Finalize Python interpreter in the PythonManager destructor
Oct 26 19:04:30 <CIA-50> freesmartphone.org: 3.) Fix ListObjectsByInterface logic in Device subsystem
Oct 26 19:04:32 <CIA-50> freesmartphone.org: 4.) Factory functions for subsystems return Subsystem.Manager instance instead of bool, after which it is correctly
Oct 26 19:04:35 <CIA-50> freesmartphone.org:  inserted into the fso_objects hash_table
Oct 26 19:10:59 <Shrimpy_> if you have to sign in on your wireless like it re routes you to a url to log it. would you be able to connect to the network and update?
Oct 26 19:23:56 <CIA-50> freesmartphone.org: 03mickey 07framework * r956584140ca9 10/framework/subsystems/odeviced/powercontrol_neo.py: odeviced: improve WARNING wording
Oct 26 19:29:56 <lloyd_fedora> i keep getting this error during the install when trying to install debian using the install script " P: Configuring helper/ cdebootstrap-helper-apt
Oct 26 19:29:56 <lloyd_fedora> E: Internal error: install " .. then it stops and exits to the prompt .. any one know whats goin on .. ?? thanks 
Oct 26 19:35:14 <tomer> anyone runs citymap on the GTA02?
Oct 26 19:42:10 <orospakr> Hm, I assume that Qtopia is still the best option for making a Neo1973 usable as an actual phone?
Oct 26 19:43:07 <mickey|bbl> hmm
Oct 26 19:43:23 <mickey|bbl> depends
Oct 26 19:43:28 <leinir> It depends entirely on who you ask :)
Oct 26 19:43:31 <cjb_ie> i'm not sure if android works on it yet
Oct 26 19:43:48 <leinir> But it's what i use (that is, Qt Extended)
Oct 26 19:44:30 <orospakr> Heh, Android would be *awesome*.
Oct 26 19:44:48 <orospakr> Android doesn't have an on-screen keyboard, though, which would make it pretty useless. :P
Oct 26 19:45:39 <orospakr> is battery life better than a day now?  can is resume from suspend on a call?
Oct 26 19:45:43 <orospakr> s/can is/can it/
Oct 26 19:45:44 <apt> orospakr meant: is battery life better than a day now?  can it resume from suspend on a call?
Oct 26 19:47:05 <leinir> Yes, it will keep quite a long time on standby (not tested it, but it's more than a couple of days at any rate), and it resumes on incoming calls and texts :)
Oct 26 19:47:13 <orospakr> ooh!
Oct 26 19:47:26 <orospakr> that is an improvement from last time I checked.
Oct 26 19:47:39 <orospakr> link to an image?
Oct 26 19:48:05 <leinir> They're up on http://qtopia.net/ like they used to be :)
Oct 26 19:48:21 <leinir> You're looking for 4.4.1 :)
Oct 26 19:49:27 <Shrimpy_> which has more functions that work qtopia(extended) or debian
Oct 26 19:51:36 <leinir> Phone stuff, it's qt extended
Oct 26 19:51:47 <leinir> Other stuff, it's of course Debian, because of how it's done :)
Oct 26 19:52:07 <leinir> (it's a full desktop, where qt extended is a more phone-ish system)
Oct 26 19:55:01 <parodyoflanguage> Can anyone explain the SIM card thing?  I've never used one before, right now I'm with Verizon.  Who would I have to use as a provider?  A web reference would work as well.
Oct 26 19:55:58 <cjb_ie> any provider that'll sell you a sim card...
Oct 26 19:56:29 <parodyoflanguage> cjb_ie: i.e.?
Oct 26 19:56:36 <rooly> at&t, tmobile
Oct 26 19:56:49 <nullpuppy> verizon uses a CDMA network. the openmoko phone uses GSM, so you would need a company that uses GSM, such as at&t or tmobile
Oct 26 19:56:58 <parodyoflanguage> Okay, thanks.
Oct 26 19:57:11 <rooly> you could, of course...make your own
Oct 26 19:57:23 <parodyoflanguage> I'm not familiar with any of this stuff.
Oct 26 19:57:25 <rooly> but that would be more work than necessary
Oct 26 19:57:32 <cjb_ie> rooly: make his own sim card?
Oct 26 19:57:37 <rooly> no, phone company
Oct 26 19:57:57 <cjb_ie> that would imply making a sim card too :)
Oct 26 19:58:04 <rooly> true...
Oct 26 19:58:23 <cjb_ie> and there might be spectrum licensing issues
Oct 26 19:58:25 <parodyoflanguage> Make my own phone company :)
Oct 26 19:58:31 <cjb_ie> damn the FCC
Oct 26 19:58:41 <parodyoflanguage> Build my own cell towers.
Oct 26 19:58:52 * rooly sighs
Oct 26 19:59:08 <rooly> when is the wifi power gonna be configurable in userspace
Oct 26 19:59:54 <orospakr> leinir, 4.4.1 doesn't appear to be listed on http://qtopia.net/modules/devices/openmoko.php
Oct 26 19:59:58 <parodyoflanguage> But yeah, a cell phone is just a radio reciever/transmitter.  I don't think you can usually use it for actual radio functions though (like CB, FM).
Oct 26 20:00:27 <leinir> orospakr: That's because you should be looking under Downloads :)
Oct 26 20:00:33 <DocScrutinizer> cjb_ie: no need for simcard on your own network ;-)
Oct 26 20:00:56 <DocScrutinizer> just implemet any other authetication method
Oct 26 20:01:03 <parodyoflanguage> DocScrutinizer: You just need to build your own cell phone too :)
Oct 26 20:01:06 <cjb_ie> DocScrutinizer: i guess, with control over the phone firmware and the network he wouldn't be limited to emergency calls only
Oct 26 20:01:23 <rooly> the fr does e911?
Oct 26 20:01:37 <DocScrutinizer> the BTS decides on emergency numbers AFAIK
Oct 26 20:01:47 <rooly> or whatever
Oct 26 20:01:54 <rooly> the fr does emergency tho?
Oct 26 20:02:07 <cjb_ie> GSM spec is for all phones to permit access to 112 emergency number regardless of whether sim is in or not
Oct 26 20:02:15 <DocScrutinizer> anyway every GSM MS should register without simcard as well
Oct 26 20:02:24 <DocScrutinizer> yup
Oct 26 20:02:41 <cjb_ie> not all networks conform to that spec, however.
Oct 26 20:03:04 <DocScrutinizer> but your *own* network may implement whatever you want
Oct 26 20:03:20 <DocScrutinizer> => no need for a sim
Oct 26 20:03:24 <cjb_ie> as noted
Oct 26 20:03:32 <parodyoflanguage> Interesting.
Oct 26 20:03:44 <cjb_ie> but if he wants to roam from his own network to any other, he'll need a sim :)
Oct 26 20:03:59 <cjb_ie> and roaming contracts, of course
Oct 26 20:04:24 <DocScrutinizer> hmm, hard one to negotiate :-)
Oct 26 20:04:28 <orospakr> parodyoflanguage, keep in mind that building a telephone company is not particularly easy.  although if I recall correctly there have been some groups that have managed to make working GSM cells before.
Oct 26 20:04:46 <parodyoflanguage> So if you install the same software on a bunch of neo freerunners in a small area (like a campground) you could have free calls within that area.
Oct 26 20:05:09 <cjb_ie> yeah, it'd be like having eventphones
Oct 26 20:05:14 <rooly> it would be a shitload of work, parodyoflanguage, but yes
Oct 26 20:05:14 <DocScrutinizer> lol, you can buy a BTS11 for ~200USD on ebay
Oct 26 20:05:37 <parodyoflanguage> (Which has always made sense to me.  I don't know why I have to use the cell system to call someone next door.)
Oct 26 20:05:41 <cjb_ie> (eventphone = a bunch of german hackers that implemented roaming between DECT cordless base stations)
Oct 26 20:05:53 <parodyoflanguage> cjb: ah.
Oct 26 20:06:03 <cjb_ie> www.eventphone.de iirc
Oct 26 20:06:16 <rooly> anyway, i'm still wondering why the wifi isn't in userspace
Oct 26 20:06:29 <parodyoflanguage> It's cool though.  The sky's the limit.
Oct 26 20:06:30 <rooly> at least the power to the chip
Oct 26 20:06:34 <quickdev> eventphone, I know that from 23c3, hehe
Oct 26 20:06:38 <DocScrutinizer> cause it's a fullmac implementation
Oct 26 20:07:02 <rooly> i'd google that, but my os is fonky right now
Oct 26 20:07:04 <orospakr> leinir, well, I guess I just need to use dfu-util to flash on the kernel image and root image for 4.4.1, and I'm off to the races?
Oct 26 20:07:18 <cjb_ie> i got a DECT phone at whatthehack - it worked very very well. they even rented a DDI range from the a dutch telco so people could receive calls from the outside world on their eventphones
Oct 26 20:07:32 <leinir> orospakr: Yup, and make sure you grab the kernel modules for mwester's kernel as well :)
Oct 26 20:07:52 <orospakr> ah, I was wondering about that.  How are those installed?
Oct 26 20:08:07 <rooly> so what is a fullmac implementation
Oct 26 20:08:08 <orospakr> (I guess I will keep reading mwester's qtopia info page)
Oct 26 20:09:02 <leinir> Yes, yes you will ;)
Oct 26 20:09:35 <orospakr> leinir, I assume you mean that it's up to date.  awesome. :)
Oct 26 20:09:55 <orospakr> heh, 03 October.  close enough. :)
Oct 26 20:37:06 <orospakr> leinir, phooey.  it seems to hang at the uboot splashscreen. :(
Oct 26 20:38:18 <orospakr> heh, I booted with USB in.  I think that's why.
Oct 26 20:38:30 <orospakr> now it's loading userspace...
Oct 26 20:52:05 <leachim_dot_eu> hello
Oct 26 20:53:07 <leachim_dot_eu> does everybody know where i can get this theme?
Oct 26 20:53:08 <leachim_dot_eu> http://scap.linuxtogo.org/files/a021c845b2f5bc5f98e3b6a78ad925f7.png
Oct 26 20:54:45 <orospakr> whoa, qt441 is looking pretty good!
Oct 26 20:56:13 <dskippy> orospakr: What about it?
Oct 26 20:57:12 <orospakr> it WORKS.
Oct 26 20:57:34 <orospakr> I wonder how long it takes to go into suspend.
Oct 26 21:30:53 <nicfer> one question, would be possible to install openmoko on an G1 phone?
Oct 26 21:31:26 <viq> Do you have documentation for the hardware?
Oct 26 21:32:45 <SpeedEvil> It's possible to install it on any phone with enough ROM and RAM.
Oct 26 21:33:04 <SpeedEvil> If you are willing to reverse engineer any undocumented hardware/.
Oct 26 21:33:18 <SpeedEvil> And write drivers.
Oct 26 21:33:37 <SpeedEvil> And configure for the right size of screen and stuff
Oct 26 21:52:56 <orospakr> nicfer, I think you've got it backwards. ;)
Oct 26 21:53:13 <orospakr> nicfer, but yes, there is a public git tree at Google that should run on that device
Oct 26 21:55:34 <orospakr> (git tree of the kernel, I should have been more specific)
Oct 26 22:17:27 <Dave> KEnYoung :)
Oct 26 22:18:50 <KenYoung> Hi Dave
Oct 26 22:20:46 <Dave> Hallo :)
Oct 26 22:20:56 <KenYoung> I swapped my Treo for a G1...
Oct 26 22:21:27 <Dave> oooh
Oct 26 22:33:39 <TeLLuS> Yey, got my gprs working in om2008,9 with only the external muxer and no extra depend support libs. Now to make phone dialing work again... :/  reciving call is ok..
Oct 26 22:36:24 <Dave> :D
Oct 26 22:44:54 <orospakr> KenYoung, nice.
Oct 26 22:46:31 <KenYoung> orospakr, I feel so disloyal...
Oct 26 22:47:29 <Dave> Why so?
Oct 26 22:48:34 <orospakr> Android looks pretty awesome.  I've done a little dev work with it with their SDK.
Oct 26 22:48:38 <KenYoung> I had hoped I'd be able to use my Freerunner fulltime when I finally got sick of the Treo freeze-ups and crashes.
Oct 26 22:49:04 <Dave> Ah :x
Oct 26 22:49:12 <Dave> but were you running illume on it? :D
Oct 26 22:49:22 <orospakr> illume?
Oct 26 22:49:57 <Kensan> He said Yehova.
Oct 26 22:49:59 <Dave> YES
Oct 26 22:50:00 <KenYoung> Dave - no, I would nave, but I don't think my model Treo was supported - certainly I would not have been able to make calls with it.
Oct 26 22:50:14 <Dave> oh, well, probably not
Oct 26 22:50:16 <Dave> but oh well
Oct 26 22:50:21 <KenYoung> s/have/nave
Oct 26 22:50:23 <Dave> maybe for the better then
Oct 26 22:50:41 <Dave> Ah, so you're disloyal, because you capitulated to the enemy?
Oct 26 22:50:51 <Dave> Purchasing some apple crap?
Oct 26 22:50:58 <Dave> or android rather
Oct 26 22:50:59 <Dave> sorry
Oct 26 22:51:00 <Dave> :D
Oct 26 22:51:04 <KenYoung> Strategic retreat - I remain committed to OM!
Oct 26 22:51:06 <Dave> Hope it works well, and you like it though :)
Oct 26 22:51:08 <Dave> hah, yeah :)
Oct 26 22:51:11 <Dave> good stuff Ken
Oct 26 22:51:14 <Dave> We appreciate your work
Oct 26 22:51:19 <Dave> And well, I personally like it! :)
Oct 26 22:51:32 <KenYoung> Thanks very much, Dave.
Oct 26 22:52:20 <Dave> You are most certainly welcome, friend :)
Oct 26 22:52:59 <KenYoung> I was rather underwhelmed by the third party Android ap.s which are available so far.
Oct 26 22:53:12 <Dave> Disappointing, huh?
Oct 26 22:53:49 * SpeedEvil wishes he'd managed to get more done on the GPS reverse engineering of the last version.
Oct 26 22:53:59 <KenYoung> no ssh, no shell (of course), no pdf viewer.
Oct 26 22:54:09 <SpeedEvil> (with the aid of xephem modified to produce milimeter range-rates to satellites)
Oct 26 22:54:14 <Dave> Ken :(
Oct 26 22:54:15 <orospakr> I imagine ssh will be along before too long.
Oct 26 22:55:07 <Kensan> SpeedEvil: the Neo one?
Oct 26 22:55:16 <KenYoung> orospakr, At the moment, the Freerunner has a lot more available for it.  If the phone function were just rock-solid, it would be very competitive.
Oct 26 22:55:29 <orospakr> Yeah, that would be nice.
Oct 26 22:55:30 <Dave> Wow
Oct 26 22:55:36 <Dave> That's pretty sad, Ken.
Oct 26 22:56:05 <SpeedEvil> KenYoung: yes
Oct 26 22:56:14 <SpeedEvil> err
Oct 26 22:56:16 <SpeedEvil> kensan:
Oct 26 22:57:00 <KenYoung> SpeedEvil, Did anyone actually reverse engineer the neo1973's GPS output?
Oct 26 22:57:10 <SpeedEvil> KenYoung: not really
Oct 26 22:57:21 <Kensan> SpeedEvil: oh, so you are still working on reverse engineering the driver?
Oct 26 22:57:30 <SpeedEvil> KenYoung: we got to the stage where we could detect satellites, and read their doppler, but not any more than that
Oct 26 22:57:44 <Dave> :(
Oct 26 22:58:03 <SpeedEvil> Kensan: alas no - that pretty much stalled when it was announced that FR hadn't gone with the chip.
Oct 26 22:58:15 * SpeedEvil wonders if hte SIRF lawsuits will come to anything.
Oct 26 22:58:27 <Kensan> SpeedEvil: yeah, that's what I thought thats why I was a bit surprised.
Oct 26 22:59:01 <KenYoung> SpeedEvil, Did anyone try disassembling gllin?
Oct 26 22:59:03 <SpeedEvil> (SIRF has been judged to have infringed Global Locates patents in several areas, and is awaiting judgement on penalties)
Oct 26 22:59:10 <SpeedEvil> KenYoung: not directly I think
Oct 26 22:59:34 <Kensan> hm...
Oct 26 22:59:38 <mwester> Yeah, unfortunately the Global Locate/Broadcom folks also stopped working on it all as soon as they found out that the GTA02 was going with another chip.
Oct 26 22:59:39 <SpeedEvil> KenYoung: protocol analysis of the serial datastream in conjunction with the visible satellites and known information on them
Oct 26 23:00:34 <SpeedEvil> (though I note it's also in the Iphone 3G)
Oct 26 23:02:01 <Kensan> mwester: oh hey there. did you see the link I posted?
Oct 26 23:02:15 <Kensan> mwester: http://repo.or.cz/w/linux-2.6/openmoko-kernel.git
Oct 26 23:02:47 <Kensan> mwester: ops, just saw it. sorry
Oct 26 23:03:07 <ixs> ahhhso
Oct 26 23:03:12 <ixs> never mind
Oct 26 23:03:12 <ixs> ewin
Oct 26 23:03:53 <Kensan> raster: hi there.
Oct 26 23:07:02 <raster> Kensan:  boo!
Oct 26 23:07:03 <Kensan> mwester: how come you called it "knife-kernel"? Is there a story behind that name? ;)
Oct 26 23:07:50 <Kensan> raster: been busy with e17 stuff? Interesting stuff the tomcpu... couldn't find much info though.
Oct 26 23:08:46 <raster> Kensan: yes. been busy adding wizard stuff
Oct 26 23:09:45 <Kensan> raster: ic. I've been very lazy so I did not get around making patches.
Oct 26 23:10:40 <raster> no problems
Oct 26 23:10:43 <raster> i've been busy myself
Oct 26 23:12:11 <Dave> Rastermen
Oct 26 23:14:59 <Kensan> raster: the thing you were talking about sometime this week (MINUS the eyecandy) http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/NeoTool#Screenshots
Oct 26 23:15:02 <Kensan> ;)
Oct 26 23:15:40 <raster> Dave:  boo
Oct 26 23:15:53 <Dave> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH
Oct 26 23:16:03 <raster> Kensan:  nice.
Oct 26 23:16:53 <Kensan> raster: that's a big minus, the eye-candy ;)
Oct 26 23:19:17 <raster> thats good enough
Oct 26 23:19:21 <raster> better than cmd-line
Oct 26 23:19:21 <raster> :)
Oct 26 23:29:22 <chomwitt_> hi. i'd like to ask if gsmd , gsm stack are open source ?
Oct 26 23:29:57 <KenYoung> chomwitt_, I think everything which runs on the SOC CPU is open source.
Oct 26 23:31:19 <pelifante> chomwitt_: yes, they are
Oct 26 23:31:47 <mjr> depends on what levels of the gsm stack you're talking about. The GSM chip is proprietary.
Oct 26 23:32:47 <chomwitt_> ok. show has gsm chip been reversed engineered or its specs are open?
Oct 26 23:34:01 <pelifante> it uses a standard command set
Oct 26 23:34:35 <pelifante> most modems look identically to the software running on the cpu because they talk AT commands
Oct 26 23:35:01 <SpeedEvil> chomwitt_: it's not been reverse engineered - but hardware specs and programming info is out there. Firmware isn't.
Oct 26 23:38:00 <chomwitt_> ok. thanks a lot.
Oct 26 23:40:04 <Kensan> pelifante: AT commands are far from "standard" unfortunately :(
Oct 26 23:41:30 <Kensan> raster: I should be getting my debugboard towards the end of the week. I might take a look at qi when I get it...
Oct 26 23:41:40 <pelifante> they are common enough that you can make a gsmd and a dialer that works for most modems :p
Oct 26 23:42:21 <Kensan> pelifante: most vendors have their own "standardized" version of AT commandos.
Oct 26 23:42:23 <chomwitt_> :-)
Oct 26 23:42:55 <Kensan> pelifante: when it comes to GSM I mean.
Oct 26 23:43:27 * SpeedEvil ponders AT commandos.
Oct 26 23:44:16 <pelifante> Kensan: well, you're right that most vendors don't comply fully to gsm specs even if they claim they do... but there's a common subset that seems to be good enough
Oct 26 23:44:41 <SpeedEvil> Or at least 'good enough' - with per-chip quirk lists
Oct 26 23:45:52 <slaxxin> http://planet.openmoko.org/
Oct 26 23:46:10 <slaxxin> thats a pretty broken base image
Oct 26 23:47:45 <slaxxin> i like the combination shaded lamp+ mini fan blade boot splash
Oct 26 23:50:06 <Dave> heh, slaxxin
Oct 26 23:50:24 <slaxxin> dave i got no sound on the base image
Oct 26 23:50:39 <Dave> sweet
Oct 26 23:51:51 <slaxxin> dave would u tell me what this means?
Oct 26 23:51:54 <slaxxin> sed -i -e s,asu,illume, /etc/enlightenment/default_profile
Oct 26 23:52:45 <slaxxin> what is sed
Oct 26 23:52:53 <ixs> replace asu with illumne in the file /etc/enlightenment/default_profile
Oct 26 23:53:03 <ixs> slaxxin: sed is the "stream editor"
Oct 26 23:53:13 <ixs> think about it as a scriptable editor
Oct 26 23:53:22 <slaxxin> wow
Oct 26 23:53:41 <pelifante> man sed will give you the exact info, but yeah, here it's used to replace occurrences of "asu" with "illume"
Oct 26 23:53:44 <ixs> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sed
Oct 26 23:55:57 <Dave> haha
Oct 26 23:58:14 <Dave> Sargun.
Oct 26 23:58:18 <Sargun> Dave.
Oct 26 23:58:29 <Sargun> oh, god this is ghetto. I have to do mouth-to-mouth on my laptop to get it to boot up
Oct 27 00:05:12 <Dave> geeze
Oct 27 00:05:24 <Dave> Spare us the salacious details, Sargun. :p
Oct 27 00:05:37 <Dave> We don't want to know what you do with your bootstrap loader :p
Oct 27 00:05:51 <Sargun> lol
Oct 27 00:06:09 <Sargun> I hate this hardware
Oct 27 00:14:01 <Dave> :(
Oct 27 00:14:07 <Dave> Welcome to the club, Sargun...
Oct 27 00:14:12 <Dave> Welcome to the fucking club :(
Oct 27 00:14:57 <Sargun> Well
Oct 27 00:15:04 <Sargun> I'm convincing my boss
Oct 27 00:15:07 <Sargun> to buy two OM
Oct 27 00:15:48 * mwester wonders why Sargun is trying to get fired?
Oct 27 00:16:00 <Dave> :D
Oct 27 00:16:12 <Dave> Maybe we wants to mindfuck his boss?
Oct 27 00:16:20 <Dave> I like revenging!
Oct 27 00:23:26 <Dave> :o
Oct 27 00:24:09 <Sargun> the OM isn't bad :-(
Oct 27 00:24:43 <Dave> Perhaps your employment is, then?
Oct 27 00:27:56 <mwester> No, the FR isn't so bad -- as long as one knows what to expect when you get it.
Oct 27 00:28:13 <mwester> It does a lot of things very well.
Oct 27 00:35:59 <DocScrutinizer2> mwester: actually the hw isn't that bad at all. most problems are sw, and sw is community as well as OM
Oct 27 00:36:18 <Sargun> the HW has some issues
Oct 27 00:36:23 <Sargun> the Calypso chipset sucks
Oct 27 00:36:26 <Sargun> so does Glamo
Oct 27 00:36:38 <DocScrutinizer2> *sigh*
Oct 27 00:37:10 <DocScrutinizer2> what's wrong with calypso?
Oct 27 00:38:27 * mwester wonders where to start, beginning with the bouncing problem, then the sim cards that are not recognized, and also notes that it's so proprietary that not even OM -- with NDAs -- has all the code for it....
Oct 27 00:39:09 <mwester> And I'll also point out that the community CAN do software -- I've certainly done my share -- but we're stuck because the current show-stopper problems are with the glamo, and we have no docs.
Oct 27 00:39:25 <DocScrutinizer2> we are about to actually tackle #666 and #1024
Oct 27 00:39:57 <mwester> I know.  OM has to; we cannot.  So it is unfair to characterize the issues as just SW, and then suggest that the community can fix them.
Oct 27 00:40:02 <DocScrutinizer2> glamo is a showstopper?
Oct 27 00:40:07 <mwester> Yes.
Oct 27 00:40:09 <mwester> No resume.
Oct 27 00:40:50 <mwester> And with Harald's changes, the problem becomes more obvious -- and now some units display the white screen of nothingness when unblanking@!
Oct 27 00:40:50 <DocScrutinizer2> resume worked with 2007.2
Oct 27 00:41:06 <mwester> Also with Qtopia
Oct 27 00:41:30 <mwester> It seems that with older kernels, certain user-space code does not tickle the problem, afaik.
Oct 27 00:41:54 <mwester> But Andy can't get 2.6.26 to resume at all, regardless of userspace.
Oct 27 00:42:23 <DocScrutinizer2> well, sounds like sw then
Oct 27 00:43:24 <Dave> Joerg :D
Oct 27 00:43:30 <Dave> Hooray, more scrutiny please! :)
Oct 27 00:43:40 <mwester> Maybe something that can be worked around in sw.  I trust Andy on this issue; I don't have the equipment to get scope leads on the glamo lines to know myself.  Apparently it just likes to go into a state where it holds nwait -- and locks up the entire device.
Oct 27 00:43:59 <Sargun> brb
Oct 27 00:44:00 <Sargun> love you
Oct 27 00:44:01 <Sargun> err
Oct 27 00:44:01 <Dave> How terrible!
Oct 27 00:44:02 <DocScrutinizer2> sure there are some hw issues. but to be it seems those aren't showstoppers - well except buzz and 666 1024
Oct 27 00:44:08 <Dave> Sargun, we like you too :)
Oct 27 00:44:14 <mwester> Not a show stopper?
Oct 27 00:44:27 <mwester> Yeah, if you never travel more than a few hours from an electrical outlet.
Oct 27 00:44:29 <Dave> Well, not all of us, heh.
Oct 27 00:44:35 <Dave> Mwester :)
Oct 27 00:44:36 <Dave> yeah
Oct 27 00:44:57 <d-b> dave i want your nick. so this is for you own good "I can't do that dave". ;) just kidding.
Oct 27 00:47:46 <DocScrutinizer2> mwester:  I can hold FR in suspend for several days and it will resume. So clearly it's not a hw-bug you may call a showstopper
Oct 27 00:48:32 * Dave halsmites d-b
Oct 27 00:48:53 <mwester> DocScrutinizer2:  mine works fine too.  It seems that not all units are susceptible to the problem.  But maybe when you see Andy you can tell him it's not a hw problem ;)
Oct 27 00:49:16 <DocScrutinizer2> boohoo hw is broken, it doesnt work wth new kernel??
Oct 27 00:49:37 <mwester> No need to getty pissy.
Oct 27 00:50:10 <mwester> Just because it works when tickled in one particular way doesn't mean you can say it's not broken when used in a slightly different way.
Oct 27 00:50:18 <DocScrutinizer2> wasnt my intention :-)
Oct 27 00:51:05 <mwester> If you believe that, then you could argue that the buzz is not a hw problem, because if the phone buzzed, then just go closer to the tower.  If the phone won't resume, then just don't put the glamo into that mode, whatever that might be.
Oct 27 00:52:03 <mwester> But really, I don't care if it's HW or not -- clearly you do.  I am a customer, I only care that it works properly, and someone needs to find a way to make it consistently resume.  That seems to be hard to do, as the problem has been outstanding fora long time.
Oct 27 00:52:09 <Dave> you gotta rub it the right way ;)
Oct 27 00:52:26 <DocScrutinizer2> #1 is silly, #2 is true
Oct 27 00:52:26 <mwester> So since the docs are not out in the public, I guess it's Openmoko who has to fix it.  Boohoo.
Oct 27 00:52:26 <Dave> I guess Joerg knows how to properly "touch" his hardware ;)
Oct 27 00:52:34 <Dave> Welcome back, Sargun :p
Oct 27 00:52:38 <mwester> I didn't number anything.
Oct 27 00:52:49 <Sargun> Is FIC making any money on the OM project?
Oct 27 00:52:58 <Kensan> Dave: kinky stuff
Oct 27 00:53:09 <Dave> :p
Oct 27 00:53:51 <Kensan> Dave: you always put things in a different perspective. I don't know it that's good or bad...
Oct 27 00:54:53 <mwester> Sargun: I'd be really surprised if Om would tell anyone that sort of info.
Oct 27 00:55:06 <Sargun> you mean FIC
Oct 27 00:55:09 <Sargun> I doubt they will
Oct 27 00:55:12 <Dave> heh ;)
Oct 27 00:55:15 <Sargun> but it would be really interesting to find out
Oct 27 00:55:19 <mwester> Om is now a separate entity from FIC
Oct 27 00:55:28 <Sargun> completely separate?
Oct 27 00:55:33 <Dave> Yes.
Oct 27 00:55:36 <Sargun> I thought FIC provided capital to OM
Oct 27 00:55:38 <Dave> They broke up.
Oct 27 00:55:39 <Sargun> why did they fork?
Oct 27 00:55:53 <DocScrutinizer2> fic sucks ;-)
Oct 27 00:55:54 <Sargun> Dave, they should have gone to marriage counseling.
Oct 27 00:56:01 <Dave> relationship problems, as usual :)
Oct 27 00:56:03 <Dave> huhu
Oct 27 00:56:04 <Dave> :D
Oct 27 00:56:27 <Sargun> haha
Oct 27 01:00:11 * Dave high-fives Sargun
Oct 27 01:00:25 <Sargun> FIC does suck
Oct 27 01:00:37 <Sargun> I wonder how much $ they make on each device
Oct 27 01:01:09 <Sargun> (OM that is)
Oct 27 01:01:14 <Sargun> and how much they make on the HXD8v2
Oct 27 01:01:19 <Dave> Have someone leak it.
Oct 27 01:01:35 <Sargun> and the HXD8v2's successor
Oct 27 01:01:38 <Dave> I could find out how much they made per device anyway.
Oct 27 01:01:42 <Sargun> I wonder when that is going to come out anyways. 
Oct 27 01:01:45 <Sargun> Dave, how?
Oct 27 01:02:21 <Dave> I'll place a phonecall to them.
Oct 27 01:02:57 <Dave> Not sure if they'd really tell us, but we did negotiate for our first batch which was price-reduced, I believe.
Oct 27 01:03:09 <Sargun> would that actually work?
Oct 27 01:03:15 <Sargun> It would be interesting to make OM's business backend "open"
Oct 27 01:03:16 <Sargun> also
Oct 27 01:03:20 <Sargun> well, more open then closed
Oct 27 01:03:29 <Sargun> as in people can buy a small chunk of the company
Oct 27 01:03:39 <Sargun> they should elect a board
Oct 27 01:03:39 <Dave> Yeah
Oct 27 01:03:39 <Sargun> etc
Oct 27 01:03:51 <Dave> Maybe...
Oct 27 01:26:30 <slaxxin> very interesting how the todays om looks
Oct 27 01:26:46 <slaxxin> base image anyways
Oct 27 02:09:03 <slaxxin> the illume keyboard keeps crashing on the latest om per 
Oct 27 02:09:24 <slaxxin> http://planet.openmoko.org/
Oct 27 02:10:13 <Dave> eh?
Oct 27 02:10:20 <Dave> haha, link to planet
Oct 27 02:10:32 <Sargun> hehe
Oct 27 02:13:18 <slaxxin> Upgrading angstrom-version on root from 1:-20081026-r1 to 1:-20081027-r1..
Oct 27 02:14:50 <slaxxin> enlightenment still segv'd
Oct 27 02:15:29 <slaxxin> looks like rasters keyboard
Oct 27 02:16:35 <slaxxin> it just switches u back to the oem keyboard
Oct 27 02:17:06 <Dave> err
Oct 27 02:18:07 <raster> works for me :)
Oct 27 02:18:22 <raster> mental note
Oct 27 02:18:25 <raster> ...
Oct 27 02:18:34 <raster> probably need to merge illume into e's code
Oct 27 02:18:41 <slaxxin> /etc/network/interfaces  had the dns info in there by default:)
Oct 27 02:20:20 <raster> man people have horrible desks
Oct 27 02:20:32 <Dave> and you, rasteR?
Oct 27 02:20:37 <slaxxin> i was just messing around following the how to provided by the "dept"
Oct 27 02:21:08 * mwester looks at his desk critically
Oct 27 02:21:22 <raster> http://www.rasterman.com/files/desk-01.jpg
Oct 27 02:21:25 <raster> nice and clean
Oct 27 02:21:29 <slaxxin> somethings missing
Oct 27 02:22:35 <raster> ok
Oct 27 02:22:41 <raster> much better if i add "furniture
Oct 27 02:23:10 <slaxxin> papers
Oct 27 02:23:13 <techiem2-r> lol
Oct 27 02:23:13 <raster> i just wanted a photo of a desk at a nice angle so i can svg-it up
Oct 27 02:23:18 * techiem2-r doesn't see enough computers
Oct 27 02:23:21 <raster> without a desk full of junk
Oct 27 02:23:27 <raster> so i went to flickr
Oct 27 02:23:36 <raster> and searched for "Desk"
Oct 27 02:23:40 <slaxxin> ahhh a nice mini itx
Oct 27 02:23:41 <raster> man do people have grubby messy desks
Oct 27 02:23:46 * mwester looks at all his beloved clutter, and decides that he's happy with it the way it is ;)
Oct 27 02:23:58 <raster> slaxxin: i dont do papers.
Oct 27 02:24:03 <raster> they're a space-hog
Oct 27 02:24:04 <slaxxin> i see that
Oct 27 02:24:05 <raster> and kill trees
Oct 27 02:24:06 <raster> :)
Oct 27 02:24:18 <raster> and its actually micro-atx
Oct 27 02:24:19 <raster> not mini
Oct 27 02:24:29 <slaxxin> truly paperless
Oct 27 02:24:32 <raster> so its a full normal desktop cpu + cards in there
Oct 27 02:25:02 <slaxxin> yay i built a gbox blue several years ago
Oct 27 02:25:06 <Dave> hehe, mwester :)
Oct 27 02:25:52 <slaxxin> it was the counterstrike go box 
Oct 27 02:31:00 <techiem2-r> well since we're showing desks: http://techiem2.net/images/desk1.jpg http://techiem2.net/images/desk2.jpg
Oct 27 02:31:03 <techiem2-r> :P
Oct 27 02:31:21 * Soulnoob looks
Oct 27 02:31:43 <techiem2-r> obviously it's usually not that clean
Oct 27 02:31:44 <techiem2-r> lol
Oct 27 02:31:47 <Dave> :p
Oct 27 02:32:03 <Soulnoob> Big mug?
Oct 27 02:32:14 <techiem2-r> gotta keep my water supply up
Oct 27 02:32:15 <techiem2-r> hehe
Oct 27 02:32:27 <slaxxin> flightgear?
Oct 27 02:32:38 <techiem2-r> I have it installed...
Oct 27 02:32:39 <techiem2-r> lol
Oct 27 02:32:41 <Soulnoob> I have one similar ^_^
Oct 27 02:32:46 <techiem2-r> haven't actually used my js in quite a while
Oct 27 02:32:59 <techiem2-r> or the graphics tab....
Oct 27 02:36:30 <Dave> techiem :D
Oct 27 02:37:50 <techiem2-r> hehe
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Mon Oct 27 02:59:57 2008