**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Wed Dec 03 02:59:57 2008
Dec 03 03:00:29 <ieatlint> sadly much of my openmoko steam has died up... the frustration from other parts of my life overloaded my ability to cope with openmoko frustration... hopefully i'll be able to get back into it soon :)
Dec 03 03:01:39 <Dave> I figured ask much
Dec 03 03:01:44 <Dave> Just thought I'd reach out to you :)
Dec 03 03:02:49 <ieatlint> how's the massive conglomorate going?
Dec 03 03:03:32 <Dave> hah
Dec 03 03:03:38 <Dave> not well, as you might think
Dec 03 03:04:10 <Dave> things are coming together more, yet there are similar schisms which still exist.
Dec 03 03:04:50 <ieatlint> exciting
Dec 03 03:06:37 <Dave> uh huh
Dec 03 03:06:53 <Dave> SHR is definitely coming along but I think it'll still be a long while till it develops to where we'd ideally like it.
Dec 03 03:07:12 <Dave> Meanwhile things like Android and to a lesser extend (in Hype anyway), debian are moving along in parallel.
Dec 03 03:13:38 <ieatlint> yeah... we'll see how that goes
Dec 03 03:14:03 <Dave> :)
Dec 03 03:14:05 <Dave> Indeed.
Dec 03 03:14:11 <Dave> In the meantime, needs more beer. :p
Dec 03 03:14:21 <ieatlint> there will be some advantages with an x based system over android, such as fennec... but people like usability, and shr so far... yeah.. hehe
Dec 03 03:14:29 <ieatlint> beer good
Dec 03 03:14:38 <ieatlint> i am drinking rumless egg nog, however
Dec 03 03:16:04 <Dave> bleh?
Dec 03 03:16:12 <Dave> Everything about that is wrong?
Dec 03 03:16:56 <ieatlint> hah
Dec 03 03:17:09 <ieatlint> i like egg nog, and i don't want to be intoxicated at the moment
Dec 03 03:17:31 <ieatlint> for someone who has to remember to eat, it's a good source of calories :P
Dec 03 03:20:04 <Dave> :D
Dec 03 03:20:09 <Dave> better than lint ;p
Dec 03 03:21:04 <lewis> yo
Dec 03 03:21:49 <lewis> I Installed 1130 testing image
Dec 03 03:22:40 <lewis> sometimes when it is in suspend and rings the screen still in black
Dec 03 03:22:56 <lewis> and I am not able to answer
Dec 03 03:23:35 <lewis> just to report
Dec 03 03:23:38 <lewis> thank you
Dec 03 03:27:41 <ieatlint> heh, and after drinking 800 calories in 15min, i oddly don't feel too fantastic :P
Dec 03 03:28:19 <Dave> :D
Dec 03 03:28:23 <Dave> haha win
Dec 03 03:34:23 <pjz> couple of posts on one of the ML say that koolu has their android stuff up
Dec 03 03:35:31 <lewis> Andriod is able to answer a call after last image?
Dec 03 03:35:50 <pjz> dunno - one of the things koolu was working on was the onscreen kbd, not sure if they finished it
Dec 03 05:13:38 <Sargun> Hello, anyone here have a pulse?
Dec 03 05:13:48 <rooly> a what?
Dec 03 05:13:53 <Sargun> nevermind.
Dec 03 05:14:01 <Sargun> Would anyone here pay for milestones? 
Dec 03 05:14:33 <rooly> nah, maybe cornerstones tho
Dec 03 05:14:38 <Sargun> heh.
Dec 03 05:15:02 <Dave> Coverstones?
Dec 03 05:15:06 <Dave> :D
Dec 03 05:15:30 <Dave> and maybe a fucking gravestone for 2008.X
Dec 03 05:15:33 <Sargun> bounties?
Dec 03 05:15:46 <rooly> has anyone managed to get bt headsets working with qte?
Dec 03 05:17:56 <vininim_> deja vu
Dec 03 05:19:07 <vininim_> wow, my bedroom sucks.In bathroom FR got fix in 5 minutes.
Dec 03 05:19:51 <Sargun> haha
Dec 03 05:27:06 <KenYoung> Sargun, I would pay into a bounty fund for a milestone which represented concrete progress towards a working phone.   For example, a distribution with rock-solid suspend/resume.
Dec 03 05:27:37 <Sargun> KenYoung, That's a macrobounty.
Dec 03 05:27:39 <rooly> i would prefer a programmable pmu
Dec 03 05:27:44 <Sargun> PMU?
Dec 03 05:27:47 <KenYoung> Sargun, I'd be willing to kick a K$ into such a fund.
Dec 03 05:27:58 <Sargun> K$? a grand?
Dec 03 05:28:00 <rooly> well, something that could wake up dynamically
Dec 03 05:28:03 <KenYoung> Sargun, Yup.
Dec 03 05:28:14 <rooly> instead of just pushing the power button, have a set time to wake up or turn on
Dec 03 05:28:32 <Sargun> rooly, that's really hard with our current hardware.
Dec 03 05:28:38 <rooly> i know it is
Dec 03 05:28:57 <Sargun> we'd need some sort of offboard micro.
Dec 03 05:29:05 <KenYoung> Sargun, If that's a macrobounty - what sort of bounty goal did you have in mind?
Dec 03 05:29:19 <rooly> i realize, sargun. it's a design flaw
Dec 03 05:29:39 <Sargun> KenYoung, An app?
Dec 03 05:29:46 <rooly> anywho, the mrs. calls, adieu, i say, adieu
Dec 03 05:30:03 <DocScrutinizer2> Sargun: rooly: wake on hwtimer is supported on our hw
Dec 03 05:30:04 <KenYoung> Sargun, An Ap I can do myself.
Dec 03 05:31:13 <Sargun> ah.
Dec 03 05:31:21 <DocScrutinizer2> Sargun: rooly: no design flaw, no need for additional micro
Dec 03 05:31:24 <Sargun> KenYoung, Hmm.
Dec 03 05:31:38 <Sargun> DocScrutinizer, I thought if you put into deep sleep we can't do hwtimers
Dec 03 05:32:01 <DocScrutinizer2> the hwclock lives in PMU chip
Dec 03 05:32:11 <Sargun> ah.
Dec 03 05:32:15 <DocScrutinizer2> can wake PMU any time
Dec 03 05:33:02 <DocScrutinizer2> and so will the whole system
Dec 03 05:33:51 <DocScrutinizer2> ((if resume succeeds, that is)) XD
Dec 03 05:36:20 <DocScrutinizer2> if recent bootloader, you can  check for wake-reason in /sys and tell you  got an alarm from hw-clock
Dec 03 05:54:20 <slaxxin> 50 dollars a year   man  
Dec 03 05:54:35 <slaxxin> android suck
Dec 03 05:55:40 <KenYoung> slaxxin, What are you referring to that costs $50 a year?
Dec 03 05:57:02 <slaxxin> http://koolu.com/Signup/Google-Apps-Features.html
Dec 03 05:59:47 <KenYoung> slaxxin, That's bizarre.   Is that stuff which is supposed to ride atop their Android port on the Freerunner?
Dec 03 06:01:51 <KenYoung> How do they get the right to sell access to things like gmial?
Dec 03 06:01:58 <KenYoung> (gmail)
Dec 03 06:59:00 <gurugentoo> how do you bring up the shutdown menu in the current shr?
Dec 03 07:05:48 <gecco> good morning
Dec 03 07:33:00 <gurugentoo> o wow the alarm app actually is usable with suspend!!
Dec 03 07:33:15 <gurugentoo> I love you guys
Dec 03 07:33:51 <mani|work> should i join cdevel if i got problems with compiling(i didn't change something)?
Dec 03 07:37:20 <Sargun> compiling what
Dec 03 07:39:17 <mani|work> this openmoko makefile thing
Dec 03 07:42:56 <Sargun> oh
Dec 03 07:42:58 <Sargun> sure, join devel
Dec 03 08:06:15 <Hopscotch> good morning
Dec 03 08:54:41 <bhoj> hello friends ,neos UI is  not coming.only battery icon is visible that too in the centre top . what should do to get it working again?
Dec 03 08:55:11 <richy> what distro are you using?
Dec 03 08:55:22 <bhoj> 2008.8
Dec 03 08:55:41 <richy> you can always try to delete .e in your home directory
Dec 03 08:56:05 <bhoj> i din get you .
Dec 03 08:57:24 <richy> you have a hidden directory in /home/root. it is called ".e" all the enlightenment/illume things are there.. If yours doesn't come up, there is a chance they changed something recently. Deleting ".e" will bring you back to the default
Dec 03 08:57:38 <hozer> is there an 'xset' command I can run to disable screen blanking?
Dec 03 08:57:46 <hozer> I want it on all the time
Dec 03 08:58:29 <richy> hozer: yes there is, I can't remember, wait a second.. Or disable it using the wrench
Dec 03 08:59:33 <richy> hozer: I think it it "xset s off"
Dec 03 09:01:02 <richy> hozer: and in addition: xset -dpms
Dec 03 09:01:17 <richy> however, that get's overwritten here by illume
Dec 03 09:02:32 <hozer> hrrm
Dec 03 09:02:56 <hozer> wow
Dec 03 09:03:01 <hozer> firefox is a power hog
Dec 03 09:03:19 <hozer> I need to take a picture of this so you all know what I'm talking about
Dec 03 09:05:11 <bhoj> richy i have .evolution named folder . i dont have a .e folder
Dec 03 09:06:23 <richy> bhoj: that's strange. Afaik 2008.8 is using illume, too
Dec 03 09:06:56 <richy> bhoj: "/etc/init.d/xserver-nodm restart"
Dec 03 09:07:11 <sleipnir> bhoj: evolution on the phone??? are you sure you're on the right machine?
Dec 03 09:07:16 <bhoj> richy even that din work
Dec 03 09:07:24 <bhoj> yes
Dec 03 09:07:56 <bhoj> i have 2007.2 which i had ugraded
Dec 03 09:09:49 <richy> what do you mean by: doesent work: Is it not there, or not doing anything
Dec 03 09:10:21 <bhoj> i meant xsrver restarts and it has the same screen with battery in the top centre
Dec 03 09:11:43 <richy> how did you upgrade?
Dec 03 09:12:15 <richy> by reflashing, or did you change sources?
Dec 03 09:12:43 <bhoj> i just upgarded only the packages, i did not flash the new images.. . 
Dec 03 09:13:20 <richy> I see
Dec 03 09:13:27 <richy> I don't know how well this is supported
Dec 03 09:14:00 <bhoj> any way to just reinstall the xserver ?
Dec 03 09:14:06 <richy> maybe you should consider reflashing using their latest stable image?
Dec 03 09:14:31 <bhoj> if i dont get any solutions i wil do that
Dec 03 09:15:09 <richy> bhoj: sry for not having a solution... Don't forget to save your data!
Dec 03 09:16:33 <bhoj> ok, i was trying to get google maps on tangogps none of the URL worked. was anyone able to run it recently?
Dec 03 09:30:43 <hozer> in case any of you were wondering.. http://www.grid.coop/mokometer-v0.1.jpg
Dec 03 09:39:57 <Sargun> that's neat.
Dec 03 09:43:55 <CIA-24> openmoko: 03jeremy 07org.openmoko.dev * r63d6f988508c 10/conf/distro/include/sane-srcrevs.inc: om-locations: Bump up om-locations to latest version.
Dec 03 09:43:56 <CIA-24> openmoko: 03jeremy 07org.openmoko.dev * ra66e8fffe926 10/conf/distro/include/sane-srcrevs.inc: sane-srcrevs.inc: update qtopia-phone-x11 to the latest version.
Dec 03 10:44:08 <vishalbhoj> does anyone know which url for google maps on tangogps. i tried the one given on site it did not work ?
Dec 03 11:39:15 <Wonka> mwester: https://chaos.in-kiel.de/~w/openmoko/zhone-modwonka.png
Dec 03 11:39:36 <Wonka> mwester: "USED" is shown by green bar instead of grey, "BAD" would be shown by a strikethrough
Dec 03 11:39:40 <Wonka> mwester: comments?
Dec 03 12:00:53 <elserpiente_> hi
Dec 03 12:05:17 <elserpiente_> how get stability gprs connection on FR? 
Dec 03 12:08:34 <lindi-> elserpiente_: i get one with fso-frameworkd
Dec 03 12:08:45 <lindi-> elserpiente_: how does it fail for you?
Dec 03 12:08:54 <elserpiente_> i use fso too
Dec 03 12:09:48 <elserpiente_> after gsm turn on i turn on gprs, after few minutes i get org.freesmartphone.GSM.Device.Timeout: device did not answer within 10 seconds
Dec 03 12:10:28 <lindi-> elserpiente_: please script -c 'sudo frameworkd' frameworkd.log
Dec 03 12:10:35 <lindi-> elserpiente_: and enable verbose logging of gsmd
Dec 03 12:10:37 <lindi-> elserpiente_: and enable verbose logging of ogsmd
Dec 03 12:11:11 <elserpiente_> one sec
Dec 03 12:15:36 <bhoj> does anyone know which url for google maps on tangogps. i tried the one given on site it did not work ?
Dec 03 12:18:19 <elserpiente_> bhoj : works
Dec 03 12:26:25 <elserpiente_> damn, when it needs, it works :)
Dec 03 12:28:55 <methril> morning
Dec 03 12:30:48 <Cervajz> Hello everyone
Dec 03 12:30:50 <bhoj> elser hey im  trying to use that url its not working , is this the one http://mt1.google.com/mt?&x=%d&y=%d&zoom=%d?
Dec 03 12:31:34 <Cervajz> I flashed my Neo by latest testing, but when I istalled mplayer xserver won't start
Dec 03 12:32:03 <Cervajz> Do you know where is log for X server? I would like know reason of this
Dec 03 12:35:11 <Cervajz> Please could you help me? Thank you
Dec 03 12:35:47 * janrikard just picked up his freerunner at the postoffice and wonder what distribution is recomended to install to get a somewhat working phone today?
Dec 03 12:36:01 <Fougner_> !questions
Dec 03 12:36:06 <Fougner_> nah
Dec 03 12:36:08 <lindi-> janrikard: what are your skills?
Dec 03 12:36:35 <Cervajz> When I try /etc/init.d/xserver-nodm , then screen turn off-on and nothing happened
Dec 03 12:36:53 <Cervajz>  /etc/init.d/xserver-nodm start
Dec 03 12:37:05 <Cervajz> No error message, nothing
Dec 03 12:37:13 <Fougner_> Cervajz, what distro?
Dec 03 12:37:26 <Fougner_> try "restart" ?
Dec 03 12:37:28 <Fougner_> =)
Dec 03 12:37:30 <Fougner_> haha
Dec 03 12:37:30 <Cervajz> Fougner_: Latest testing of Om (from today)
Dec 03 12:37:33 <Fougner_> oh
Dec 03 12:37:35 <janrikard> lindi: Im a primary a user, but I have basic skills about programming
Dec 03 12:37:35 <Defiant> janrikard: you read the wiki page about Distributions?
Dec 03 12:37:40 <Fougner_> well, buggy stuff isn't it? ^^
Dec 03 12:37:46 <ulf> janrikard: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Distributions#Which_distribution_should_I_use_.3F
Dec 03 12:37:58 <Fougner_> janrikard, probably you would like to use the Qt distro
Dec 03 12:38:06 <Cervajz> Fougner_: But, it was ok till I installed mplayer from angstrom
Dec 03 12:38:18 <Fougner_> Cervajz, reboot the phone then
Dec 03 12:38:18 <Defiant> "SHR, Debian, Gentoo and Android are for people who do not need to ask which distribution they should use." <--nice one
Dec 03 12:38:28 <Cervajz> Fougner_: Done, same
Dec 03 12:38:31 <Fougner_> oh
Dec 03 12:38:38 <Fougner_> sounds weid
Dec 03 12:38:51 <lindi-> janrikard: experience in debian?
Dec 03 12:39:14 <Cervajz> Fougner_: There is some "try" of run X but just switch off screen, then on and nothing
Dec 03 12:39:32 <janrikard> lindi: yes, its the default distribution on my computers
Dec 03 12:39:39 <Cervajz> I would like read some log, but I don;
Dec 03 12:39:45 <Cervajz> I would like read some log, but I don't know where is
Dec 03 12:39:52 <ulf> lindi-: he wants a somewhat working phone, so not debian
Dec 03 12:40:00 <lindi-> ulf: gsm calls work :)
Dec 03 12:40:09 <Fougner_> haha, but the rest?
Dec 03 12:40:27 <Fougner_> Qt will work with GSM calls, SMS (?) and stuff
Dec 03 12:40:28 <ulf> lindi-: hehe, ok, you'r right
Dec 03 12:40:47 <Fougner_> anyhow, that's up to him, debian is hax ;D
Dec 03 12:40:58 <lindi-> no no, debian is the most sane :)
Dec 03 12:41:20 <Fougner_> no hax =D
Dec 03 12:41:27 <Fougner_> most hax
Dec 03 12:41:31 <Fougner_> ;)
Dec 03 12:41:47 <lindi-> since i use normal debian software i know it is not going to break in any unexpected way
Dec 03 12:42:06 <ulf> with debian you have a pc in your pocket but, the phone funktions are ... 
Dec 03 12:42:10 <lindi-> the only "new" parts are the kernel and fso-frameworkd
Dec 03 12:42:14 <Fougner_> takes a lot to fulfill such things as a broken debian install
Dec 03 12:42:35 <Fougner_> ulf, right
Dec 03 12:42:39 <lindi-> ulf: adequate
Dec 03 12:42:54 <lindi-> as long as I can reliably make and receive calls I am happy :)
Dec 03 12:44:10 <ulf> lindi-: ok, but i would like to have a phonebook to because i can and will not remember all the numbers and thats the first thing missing with debian
Dec 03 12:45:00 <ulf> lindi-: ok there is a hack for the phonebook, but i didn't check if it works, and adding and removing numbers are not possible with the hack
Dec 03 12:45:19 <ulf> s/to/too/
Dec 03 12:47:09 <janrikard> I wount use the openmoko as my primay phone, so phonebook and stuff isnt that importent now
Dec 03 12:53:15 <lindi-> ulf: i have my own very simple phone UI with phonebook
Dec 03 12:53:33 <lindi-> ulf: i just have them in a text file i can edit with a text editor
Dec 03 12:53:45 <lindi-> ulf: the UI can then search for entries
Dec 03 12:54:25 <janrikard> now i only have 2007.2, is it recomended to flash the phone or run from uSD? should i upgrade to 2008.9 before trying debian or fdom?
Dec 03 12:57:07 <ulf> lindi-: aha, sounds good, could you call with selecting the number or do you have to dial the number?
Dec 03 12:57:47 <lindi-> ulf: there is a gtk.Entry box which shows completion options as dropdown list
Dec 03 12:57:56 <lindi-> it's all just less than 300 lines of python
Dec 03 12:58:33 <lindi-> ulf: so you can type the number manually or you can start typing a name and then choose the right option from the list that is opened below the entry box
Dec 03 12:59:30 <ulf> lindi-: ah, i understand, can i find the application somewhere?
Dec 03 13:00:13 <ulf> lindi-: sounds useful
Dec 03 13:00:16 <janrikard> if someone answerd my question, please write it again
Dec 03 13:00:23 <lindi-> ulf: http://iki.fi/lindi/openmoko/bin/kapula but beware, it is very proof-of-concept
Dec 03 13:00:38 <lindi-> ulf: http://iki.fi/lindi/openmoko/kapula but beware, it is very proof-of-concept
Dec 03 13:01:07 <ulf> janrikard: i would recommend first leave the flash like it is and try everything at the microSD
Dec 03 13:01:15 <lindi-> ulf: it has hardcoded pin code right now :P
Dec 03 13:01:31 <lindi-> maybe i'll add a screenshot
Dec 03 13:01:46 <janrikard> ulf: ok
Dec 03 13:01:52 <ulf> lindi-: screenshot would be nice ;o)
Dec 03 13:02:03 <ulf> lindi-: thanks for the link
Dec 03 13:02:34 <lindi-> ulf: http://iki.fi/lindi/openmoko/kapula.png
Dec 03 13:02:34 * theblackbox wonders if there are any plans to integrate .tel DNS syste minto OM project?
Dec 03 13:02:45 <theblackbox> http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/12/02/tel-them-where-to-find-you/
Dec 03 13:04:34 <ulf> lindi-: cool, thanks, i will try this out
Dec 03 13:05:07 <lindi-> ulf: note that i wrote this UI since i wanted something really really simple that does the minimal i need and just works reliably
Dec 03 13:05:50 <lindi-> ulf: and one of the requirements i have is to be able to shutdown GSM since I am often in areas where radio transmitters can not be used
Dec 03 13:06:52 <ulf> lindi-: i understand, "simple" ist most time a very good requirement
Dec 03 13:07:17 <ulf> lindi-: i like simple and minimal applications
Dec 03 13:07:41 <lindi-> ulf: also fso-frameworkd keeps changing all the time so i need to update kapula too when the API changes
Dec 03 13:07:55 <lindi-> i hope it will stabilize soon
Dec 03 13:11:29 <igor321> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lSiyh03TV58
Dec 03 13:11:35 <igor321> what a great app
Dec 03 13:18:01 <lindi-> what is it
Dec 03 13:20:39 <Defiant> igor321: lol shouldn't be too hard to write
Dec 03 13:57:32 <Zoup> how to get raster keyboard on daily testing images ?
Dec 03 14:11:21 <Wonka> mwester: how do i get the current gps fix status via dbus? requesting a NAV-STATUS packet at zhone localtion startup didn't work
Dec 03 14:19:51 <Fougner> Hey!
Dec 03 14:20:47 <Dave> NoHey4U!
Dec 03 14:20:56 <Fougner> uhm, Dave
Dec 03 14:21:01 <Fougner> a quick one:
Dec 03 14:21:12 <Fougner> can a FR boot without a battery?
Dec 03 14:21:27 <Dave> Not without a powersupply :p
Dec 03 14:21:35 <Fougner> du
Dec 03 14:21:35 <toggles_w> Dave: !!
Dec 03 14:21:59 <Fougner> I'm not joking, with an USB plugged in, boot or not?
Dec 03 14:22:26 <toggles_w> Fougner: nein!
Dec 03 14:22:31 <alephnull> Fougner: Dead battery ?
Dec 03 14:22:39 <Fougner> no battery at all
Dec 03 14:22:50 <Fougner> it can't then?
Dec 03 14:22:56 <Fougner> not at all?
Dec 03 14:22:58 <toggles_w> Fougner: nein!
Dec 03 14:23:03 <alephnull> tias
Dec 03 14:23:03 <Fougner> you sure?
Dec 03 14:23:17 <toggles_w> Fougner: there is a wiki page saying that some people may have managed it
Dec 03 14:23:34 <Dave> Fougner, no
Dec 03 14:23:35 <Fougner> well, I swear to god, mine just did
Dec 03 14:23:42 <toggles_w> Fougner: there is a wiki page saying that some people may have managed it
Dec 03 14:24:21 <Fougner> apt reboot toggles_w || reason; error52: stuck in loop
Dec 03 14:24:22 * apt pushes toggles_w || reason; error52: stuck in loop's reset button
Dec 03 14:26:03 <toggles_w> Fougner: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo_FreeRunner_Hardware_Issues#Can.27t_boot_with_discharged_or_missing_battery
Dec 03 14:26:13 <toggles_w> Some users have reported that Neo FreeRunner is able to boot on USB power alone using the NOR u-boot, thus: press AUX, plug USB power, select boot. Reports of success would be appreciated.
Dec 03 14:27:12 <CM_work> The GTA01 can't do it, but the GTA02 should be able to do it
Dec 03 14:33:42 <Wonka> mwester: https://chaos.in-kiel.de/~w/openmoko/zhone-modwonka-left.png
Dec 03 14:39:46 <max_posedon> toggles_w, I just tried, instractions works!)
Dec 03 14:42:44 <ethy_> hi
Dec 03 14:53:47 <toggles_w> max_posedon: sweet
Dec 03 14:54:50 * hozer looks aroudn
Dec 03 14:55:03 <hozer> Is there any way to tell the battery state of charge while it's charging?
Dec 03 14:55:47 <hozer> I left my gta01 on all night with xset s off, and it seems to be dead this mornign
Dec 03 14:56:24 <hozer> my assumption being that although it was being supplied +5v on the usb port, it was only drawing 100ma for trickle charge, and it was using quite a bit more than 100ma 
Dec 03 15:02:17 <Dave> hozer, that is likely :)
Dec 03 15:07:17 <Zorkman> hozer: which distro are you running?
Dec 03 15:07:28 <Zorkman> if 2008.x tehre is batmon.py that will tell you the status
Dec 03 15:07:46 <Zorkman> of you use fso/shr: more /sys/devices/platform/bq27000-battery.0/power_supply/bat/uevent
Dec 03 15:10:34 <hozer> Zorkman: I'm using shr
Dec 03 15:10:38 <hozer> shr-testing
Dec 03 15:13:19 <Dave> :p
Dec 03 15:16:31 <Dave> silly toggles
Dec 03 15:21:05 <hozer> Zorkman: gta01 does not seem to have platform/bq27000-battery
Dec 03 15:24:53 <Zorkman> hozer: don't know how it works for gta01
Dec 03 15:32:44 <hozer> my neo by itself (and a 5v 2amp capable wall charger) draws 4.1 watts charging
Dec 03 15:33:47 <hozer> which if the neo is actually using 500ma @5v, that's 2.5 watts
Dec 03 15:33:57 <CIA-24> openmoko: 03tick * r4844 10/trunk/src/target/opkg/libopkg/opkg_cmd.c: 
Dec 03 15:33:57 <CIA-24> openmoko: opkg: remove the free_error_list wrong usage bug
Dec 03 15:33:57 <CIA-24> openmoko: Thanks for manitu
Dec 03 15:34:01 <hozer> so the wall plug is something like 60% efficient
Dec 03 15:39:04 <hozer> what is Qi? new bootloader?
Dec 03 15:39:20 <Wonka> yes
Dec 03 15:39:41 <hozer> what's wrong with u-boot?
Dec 03 15:40:10 <Wonka> nothing - it just takes quite long, because it initializes usb to listen if someone wants to do dfu, and stuff.
Dec 03 15:40:38 <Wonka> it has features which are useful, but force the boot to take longer
Dec 03 15:40:47 <hozer> ah
Dec 03 15:41:10 <hozer> well, it makes me wonder why we're inventing "YABL" (yet another bootloader)
Dec 03 15:41:50 <Wonka> "because we can"?
Dec 03 15:42:09 <hozer> I guess :P
Dec 03 15:42:36 <hozer> what about coreboot? http://www.coreboot.org/Welcome_to_coreboot
Dec 03 15:42:43 <hozer> 3 seconds to linux on a PC
Dec 03 15:44:00 <Wonka> no idea. ask those with knowledge :)
Dec 03 15:45:01 * hozer goes to raise a ruckus on the mailing list
Dec 03 15:47:54 <CM_work> hozer: coreboot is cool, saw a presentation about it on FSCONS
Dec 03 15:47:57 <CM_work> :)
Dec 03 15:52:00 <hozer> it is quite cool
Dec 03 15:52:36 <hozer> Coreboot actually seems to be getting some traction by security-paranoid types
Dec 03 15:53:29 <hozer> do you know who's put code in your proprietary vendor bios ?
Dec 03 15:54:30 <hozer> from what I have heard, most vendor bioses's have a whole bunch of ancient object code from 15 years ago, and half the source is gone
Dec 03 15:54:53 <Wonka> fun!
Dec 03 15:55:17 <Wonka> coreboot is cool on x86 machines - no discussion
Dec 03 15:55:19 <hozer> so normally FUD (fear uncertainty, doubt) is a bad thing, right?
Dec 03 15:55:51 <Wonka> but i don't know if it has any chance against specially developed bootloaders like u-boot or qi on embedded archs
Dec 03 15:55:58 <hozer> well, I was hearing FUD about proprietary bioses a couple of weeks ago and it was kinda the greatest thing ever
Dec 03 15:56:29 <hozer> qi just inits the hardware and jumps to linux, right?
Dec 03 15:57:08 <hozer> which sounds suspiciously just like what Coreboot does
Dec 03 15:57:09 <hozer> http://www.coreboot.org/Payloads
Dec 03 16:01:49 <laen> What bugs me about most of the openmoko stuff around, is that the wheel is beeing reinvented times 10. There _are_ distro's for mobile systems, there _are_ bootloaders.. What we need is applications (a phone application which doeees work), onscreen keyboards, stuff like that.
Dec 03 16:02:06 <laen> But nooo, lets start a completely new distro from scratch which will only work on the Openmoko devices.
Dec 03 16:03:11 <igor321> for me, openmoko is _really_ close to being usable
Dec 03 16:03:34 <laen> Yeah but we had to go through the whole start-up problems distro's usually have.
Dec 03 16:04:28 <hozer> I think there's probably a point to have a distro fork
Dec 03 16:04:37 <igor321> what i really want is fso that looks like asu, and that's basically it, working on it as we speak :)
Dec 03 16:04:38 <hozer> but bootloaders go a bit too far
Dec 03 16:04:52 <laen> Yeah forks are good. Starting from scratch is and as you can see was a waste of time.
Dec 03 16:05:06 <laen> Which is why i'm running Qtextended and Debian.
Dec 03 16:05:11 <hozer> heheh
Dec 03 16:05:21 <lindi-> hozer: Qi does not work on x86
Dec 03 16:05:46 <hozer> when did Qi start existing?
Dec 03 16:05:58 <lindi-> i don't know
Dec 03 16:06:02 <lindi-> hozer: i need my uboot menus :)
Dec 03 16:06:05 <hozer> yeah
Dec 03 16:06:38 <hozer> I've implemented booting a bare linux kernel on PPC several times because the embedded board vendors had a craptastical bios, or one that didn't work at all
Dec 03 16:06:56 <hozer> bios==bootloader in this case
Dec 03 16:07:20 <lindi-> coreboot on x86 has a lot of small things that it needs to do afaik
Dec 03 16:07:33 <hozer> have you compared the Qi and coreboot code?
Dec 03 16:07:46 <lindi-> nope
Dec 03 16:07:49 <hozer> there is a lot of crap that has to be done on x86
Dec 03 16:08:23 <hozer> which the the arm coreboot version (if it doesn't already exist) will not have to deal with
Dec 03 16:08:36 <hozer> all you do is set up the memory and jump to a linux kernel image
Dec 03 16:09:09 <hozer> and then *maybe*  we'd have a damned bootloader that was consistent across more than one CPU architecture
Dec 03 16:09:26 <Wonka> what about this armstrong and openembedded stuff? isn
Dec 03 16:09:37 <Wonka> isn't openmoko built on top of that?
Dec 03 16:10:10 <hozer> wonka: yeah.. I think the distro(s) are sort of a fork of openembedded
Dec 03 16:13:12 <hozer> But as far as I can tell, Qi is a convenient one-off to get new hardware working and fast booting. But if it becomes it's own project, that seems like a distraction, and a barrier to keep people with experience in other bootloaders (like say coreboot) away from the project
Dec 03 16:13:22 <SpeedEvil> Oh no.
Dec 03 16:13:29 <SpeedEvil> Qi is an OM bootloader?
Dec 03 16:13:50 <hozer> http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Qi
Dec 03 16:13:54 * SpeedEvil sighs at the whole best enemy of good thing.
Dec 03 16:14:53 <SpeedEvil> Fix the damn suspend.
Dec 03 16:14:57 <SpeedEvil> Get that working solidly.
Dec 03 16:15:18 <hozer> Now dammit, If I had another neo and a week, I'd be porting coreboot and have 2 seconds  to console setup
Dec 03 16:15:19 <SpeedEvil> That's about 9999* more important for actually using the actual thing as a phone 
Dec 03 16:15:26 <CVirus> true
Dec 03 16:15:39 <SpeedEvil> than chopping 40s off boot time.
Dec 03 16:16:01 <CVirus> rebel
Dec 03 16:16:04 <bumbl> SpeedEvil: suspend works reliable here
Dec 03 16:16:05 <CVirus> we want reliable suspend
Dec 03 16:16:07 <CVirus> we want reliable suspend
Dec 03 16:16:17 <bumbl> but the echo is back
Dec 03 16:16:21 <bumbl> the echo is back
Dec 03 16:29:11 <slaxxin> whathesam hell
Dec 03 16:31:20 <slaxxin> where is it
Dec 03 16:32:50 <rustybox> has anyone tried out the new android from Koolu? 
Dec 03 16:45:27 <SpeedEvil> bumbl: reliable as in you can suspend for 48 hours or more?
Dec 03 16:46:26 <bumbl> SpeedEvil: It would be reliable but after 30h the battery is at 0%
Dec 03 16:52:24 <SpeedEvil> bumbl: that's somewhat low.
Dec 03 16:52:40 <SpeedEvil> bumbl: I'm unsure that's actually suspending to RAM properly.
Dec 03 16:52:49 <SpeedEvil> bumbl: rather than simply stopping the clock.
Dec 03 16:52:58 <SpeedEvil> s/somewhat/very/
Dec 03 16:54:11 <bumbl> hmm
Dec 03 16:54:17 <bumbl> maybe
Dec 03 16:54:21 <bumbl> using shr
Dec 03 16:54:26 <bumbl> at the moment
Dec 03 16:54:49 <hozer> now.. if I could only have an easy way to measure battery current ;)
Dec 03 16:57:50 <bumbl> hmm I might get myself a multimeter
Dec 03 16:57:59 <bumbl> as I need it anyway
Dec 03 17:01:13 * SpeedEvil points at the built in charge meter.
Dec 03 17:01:34 <CIA-24> freesmartphone.org: 03mickey 07framework * r67bdfbbceb38 10/framework/patterns/daemon.py: fix SIGTERM handler in daemon support code
Dec 03 17:05:47 <hozer> SpeedEvil: how do you read the charge meter when suspended :P
Dec 03 17:06:05 <bumbl> SpeedEvil: which won't work if the battery is dead (which hasn't happened lately)
Dec 03 17:10:39 <SpeedEvil> bumbl: delta
Dec 03 18:10:05 <faltantornillos> hi there
Dec 03 18:10:45 <Tig|> hi there
Dec 03 18:10:48 <faltantornillos> I'm developping an app that uses both etk.main() and dbus's mainloop.run() , but they block each other. What can I do?
Dec 03 18:12:21 <Tig|> erk,   probably pray that either raster or mickey|flu|zzZZz wake up :) 
Dec 03 18:12:59 <Tig|> faltantornillos:  or try on #openmoko-cdevel where there are more programmers
Dec 03 18:13:47 <faltantornillos> sure, thx
Dec 03 18:21:18 <caotic> has anyone tried openmoko in the omap3430ldp ?
Dec 03 18:21:40 <slaxxin> why no updated shr?
Dec 03 18:22:48 <sicu> because they're revamping code
Dec 03 18:34:28 <rooly> okay
Dec 03 18:34:32 <rooly> what the fuck
Dec 03 18:34:42 <rooly> yesterday my neo was working just damn fine as a phone
Dec 03 18:34:48 <rooly> today, it can't receive calls
Dec 03 18:34:54 <Tm_T> rooly: tuesday
Dec 03 18:34:57 <doc|home> of course
Dec 03 18:35:03 <doc|home> position of the moon has changed
Dec 03 18:35:12 <doc|home> things are no longer in alignment
Dec 03 18:35:39 <rooly> lemme rephrase: for the past month, my phone has been working just fine
Dec 03 18:35:43 <rooly> today it decides to stop
Dec 03 18:35:57 <rooly> which...of course...has put me in a bit of hot water with the mrs.
Dec 03 18:36:06 <max_posedon> it's ok, just reboot/reflash)
Dec 03 18:38:03 <rooly> reboot...tried that 3 times, no luck
Dec 03 18:38:10 <rooly> i guess i'll have to reflash
Dec 03 19:04:11 <AntonTakk> anyone tried the 2008.x testing branch recently?
Dec 03 19:09:13 <GNUtoo-desktop> hello, is there an AT command that output the manufacturer and model of the gsm chip?
Dec 03 19:09:46 <lindi-> GNUtoo-desktop: yeah
Dec 03 19:10:04 <zash> GNUtoo-desktop: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Hardware:AT_Commands#Section_5.2C_General_Commands
Dec 03 19:11:13 <GNUtoo-desktop> zash, AT+CGMI and AT+CGMM gives the model and the manufacturer of the phone...not the GSM chip...
Dec 03 19:11:17 <abatrour> hey everyone
Dec 03 19:11:30 <abatrour> is anyone else having problems getting the android image working?
Dec 03 19:11:57 <lindi-> abatrour: why separate image? why not run the android apps on top of your normal OS?
Dec 03 19:12:22 <abatrour> well because i prefer the android image, and it should just be easier
Dec 03 19:12:26 <henkie_> om testing boots really fast
Dec 03 19:12:34 <henkie_> to bad it wont wake up after some sleep
Dec 03 19:13:23 <abatrour> i flashed with the latest android images, and it just sits at a black screen forever, the old image from weeks ago worked
Dec 03 19:14:13 <AntonTakk> abatrour: have a fat and ext3 partition on the sd card?
Dec 03 19:14:28 <bricode> lindi-: That's actually quite easy to do. I was running Android on top of Debian for some debugging.
Dec 03 19:14:47 <abatrour> yup, my memory card is set up right
Dec 03 19:14:51 <bricode> lindi-: And that's how they got it working on the Nokia...chroot then start an init script.
Dec 03 19:15:04 <lindi-> bricode: yeah
Dec 03 19:15:06 <abatrour> android doesn't have any problem reading a 2gb card does it?
Dec 03 19:15:16 <lindi-> abatrour: which kernel does it use?
Dec 03 19:15:35 <AntonTakk> abatrour: dunno, i only have a 1gig usd
Dec 03 19:15:46 <abatrour> i tried the uImage-tracking, that didn't boot, so i put on uImage-android
Dec 03 19:17:43 <abatrour> looks like android started to copy files over to the sd card, i can see 50mb or so taken up, but it just doesn't boot
Dec 03 19:17:54 <abatrour> is there a way to turn off silent boot mode for android?
Dec 03 19:18:30 <ernst> http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=leXUUXOdfYY
Dec 03 19:19:53 <abatrour> ok, so it looks like it works for other people, just not me...
Dec 03 19:20:04 <rooly> same here, abatrour 
Dec 03 19:20:26 <abatrour> i tried 2 different microsd cards too, a 256mb one, and a 2gb
Dec 03 19:20:35 <rooly> oh...waity
Dec 03 19:20:37 <rooly> i just got the splash
Dec 03 19:20:38 <abatrour> formatted with 50mb fat16 and the rest ext2 on both
Dec 03 19:22:08 <ernst> is thera a new android image ?
Dec 03 19:22:16 <ernst> with keyboard ?
Dec 03 19:23:21 <abatrour> ernst, yes there is
Dec 03 19:23:30 <abatrour> the latest one from today
Dec 03 19:23:38 <ernst> can i have a link, please ?
Dec 03 19:24:52 <abatrour> http://people.openmoko.org/sean_mcneil/
Dec 03 19:26:21 <ernst> thanks
Dec 03 19:26:40 <ernst> 3 hour ago i flash the 2 August image
Dec 03 19:26:46 <abatrour> lol
Dec 03 19:26:49 <abatrour> bad timing :P
Dec 03 19:26:59 <abatrour> well if the new one works for u, let me know. mine wont boot
Dec 03 19:27:06 <ernst> yes
Dec 03 19:27:13 <ernst> does keyboard run  ?
Dec 03 19:27:32 <ernst> and does my sim card run android sad i have a incorrect pin
Dec 03 19:30:27 <abatrour> rooly, how did it take for android to boot for u?
Dec 03 19:31:00 <rooly> hmm...a little over a minute i suppose
Dec 03 19:31:35 <abatrour> i've been waiting for oer 20 minutes
Dec 03 19:31:51 <rooly> i figure its probably just luck
Dec 03 19:31:57 <rooly> it didn't work for me last time either
Dec 03 19:33:40 <abatrour> hmm, looked at my other sd card, android didn't even copy anything to the ext2 partition..
Dec 03 19:39:28 <henkie_> opendoom wont start :(
Dec 03 19:39:45 * rooly sighs
Dec 03 19:39:57 <rooly> android won't be worth the fight its gonna put up
Dec 03 19:40:10 <rooly> not until its more stable than asu will i use android
Dec 03 19:41:46 <abatrour> i found the very first android image to be the most stable of them all
Dec 03 19:44:18 <Fougner> hey guys =D
Dec 03 19:44:35 <b0ib0t2> hey
Dec 03 19:50:35 <PBeck> ahoi
Dec 03 19:52:56 <Fougner> yahoo LD
Dec 03 19:52:58 <Fougner> :D*
Dec 03 19:56:57 <laen> F O U G N E R
Dec 03 20:13:21 <Fougner_> LAEN :D
Dec 03 20:15:13 <Fougner_> I'm going to Austria now
Dec 03 20:15:14 <Fougner_> =D
Dec 03 20:15:19 <Fougner_> for some months
Dec 03 20:15:25 <Fougner_> dunno how much internet there is :P
Dec 03 20:15:58 <Fougner_> byeeeeee guys
Dec 03 20:16:02 <neldoreth> Fougner_: depends, best you can have is 25/2 mbit
Dec 03 20:16:09 <neldoreth> Fougner_: where in austria?
Dec 03 20:17:00 <Fougner_> St.Anton, west of Innsbruck
Dec 03 20:17:05 <bumbl>  Fougner_: dsl is expensive
Dec 03 20:17:27 <neldoreth> ah arlberg :D
Dec 03 20:17:51 <bumbl> as st. anton is a tourist magnet i might suggest hsdpa which is more or less cheap, flexible and has an acceptable speed
Dec 03 20:17:57 <neldoreth> the 25/2 costs about 70 euros
Dec 03 20:18:15 <toggles_w> Fougner_: watch out for kangaroos, i hear they are mean
Dec 03 20:18:31 <neldoreth> yeah st. anton is defintly one of the more expensive areas in austria
Dec 03 20:18:51 <TAsn> Fougner_, going skiing?
Dec 03 20:19:05 <Tig|> as I was spending 5 mins tapping out an sms on my FR the other day I was wondering how much of the android codebase is open and how easy would it be to get OM running on a G1.... (I was having keypad envy :) ) 
Dec 03 20:19:08 <Fougner_> TAsn, boarding ;)
Dec 03 20:19:17 <TAsn> haha, I'm a boarder myself
Dec 03 20:19:25 <Fougner_> bumbl, you live in Austria?
Dec 03 20:19:33 <Fougner_> toggles_w, lol
Dec 03 20:19:33 <bumbl> Fougner_: believe it or not yes
Dec 03 20:19:41 <neldoreth> Fougner_: i do
Dec 03 20:19:43 <TAsn> I've been in lech before (so iirc I also skied in st. anton) it's a great place ;]
Dec 03 20:19:58 <toggles_w> Fougner_: can you bring me back a KTM?
Dec 03 20:20:01 <TAsn> Fougner_, there's supposed to be wicked snow.
Dec 03 20:20:08 <bumbl> and as I told toggles_w (who lives in Australia) we have plenty of kangaroos here :p
Dec 03 20:20:23 <TAsn> I heard it was snowing all of last week.
Dec 03 20:20:30 <Fougner_> wow
Dec 03 20:20:36 <bumbl> TAsn: yes and no
Dec 03 20:20:59 <TAsn> bumbl, I heard there have been at least 0.5 meter of snow.
Dec 03 20:21:01 <bumbl> most snow was in Carinthia (Kärnten)
Dec 03 20:21:16 <bumbl> 1-1.5 metre snow in a short period of time
Dec 03 20:21:19 <neldoreth> should be arond 1.5m now
Dec 03 20:21:22 <neldoreth> *around
Dec 03 20:21:25 <bumbl> yep
Dec 03 20:21:26 <Fougner_> yay
Dec 03 20:21:28 <Fougner_> well
Dec 03 20:21:36 <TAsn> Fougner_, for how long are you going?
Dec 03 20:21:42 <Fougner_> what about the HSDPA?
Dec 03 20:21:48 <Fougner_> to april next year
Dec 03 20:21:56 <Fougner_> about, 5 months =)
Dec 03 20:21:59 <neldoreth> Fougner_: its available, i think 12gb is about 25€
Dec 03 20:22:01 <bumbl> TAsn: lech is nice, so is st. anton
Dec 03 20:22:02 <TAsn> btw, check the performances of the moko accelerometers...
Dec 03 20:22:08 <neldoreth> 5 months snow boarding? :|
Dec 03 20:22:14 <Fougner_> neldoreth, how to buy? 
Dec 03 20:22:17 <TAsn> neldoreth, exactly what I was about to ask.
Dec 03 20:22:45 <bumbl> Fougner_: how old are you? if you are under 26 i think
Dec 03 20:22:50 <Fougner_> 19
Dec 03 20:22:52 <bumbl> everything gets cheaper
Dec 03 20:22:52 <Fougner_> =)
Dec 03 20:22:55 <Fougner_> good
Dec 03 20:22:57 <bumbl> a lot
Dec 03 20:22:59 <Fougner_> xD
Dec 03 20:23:02 <Fougner_> even the beer?
Dec 03 20:23:03 <TAsn> Fougner_, oh, you are just a kid ;]
Dec 03 20:23:04 <neldoreth> Fougner_: but there are cheaper ones, i dont know how much traffic you need - you can buy that in several handy stores or in some supermarkets (hofer sells unlocked usb devices)
Dec 03 20:23:08 <bumbl> Fougner_: :p
Dec 03 20:23:08 <TAsn> going with friends?
Dec 03 20:23:12 <Fougner_> TAsn, yes
Dec 03 20:23:18 <TAsn> man that's wicked.
Dec 03 20:23:25 <neldoreth> Fougner_: try murauer -  best beer in austria :P
Dec 03 20:23:26 <TAsn> none of my friends know how to ski ;[
Dec 03 20:23:28 <Fougner_> TAsn, what? =P
Dec 03 20:23:35 <Fougner_> neldoreth, thanks for the tip
Dec 03 20:23:39 <neldoreth> Fougner_: youre welcome
Dec 03 20:23:41 <TAsn> I'm the only boarder around ;\
Dec 03 20:24:03 <bumbl> if you don't ned hardware you don't have a mindestvertragsdauer 
Dec 03 20:24:19 <bumbl> (I don't know the english term)
Dec 03 20:24:44 <neldoreth> mimimum term of agreement or something like that
Dec 03 20:25:02 <bumbl> yeah
Dec 03 20:25:16 <bumbl> if you need around 3gb/month
Dec 03 20:25:25 <bumbl> you'll get that for 9€
Dec 03 20:25:26 <Fougner_> okay, where to buy?
Dec 03 20:25:43 <Fougner_> I mean, my current operator can't do that, I guess
Dec 03 20:25:52 <Fougner_> so, buy a SIM in Austria then?
Dec 03 20:25:57 <Fougner_> which operator? :P
Dec 03 20:26:01 <bumbl> 15gb for 20€
Dec 03 20:26:02 <Fougner_> and use the phone?
Dec 03 20:26:47 <bumbl> operator: if you want it cheap with average quality i would go for drei
Dec 03 20:26:52 <bumbl> hutchinson
Dec 03 20:27:05 <bumbl> but they are only 3g
Dec 03 20:28:15 <bumbl> looked it up: if you use drei: it would cost you 16€ for 15gb hsdpa per month
Dec 03 20:28:17 <Tig|> oh btw hutchinson SIMs don't work in the freerunner (well mine didn't)
Dec 03 20:29:07 <neldoreth> Fougner_: may you have a internet connection where youre living then?
Dec 03 20:29:10 <bumbl> Tig|: they work after the #666 fix which doesn't matter because hutchinson uses 3g only
Dec 03 20:30:01 <Tig|> bumbl: ah,  not tried it recently and I only wanted to read the sms store off the sim :) 
Dec 03 20:30:47 <bumbl> neldoreth: let me guess: you are from around Murau because you suggest Murauer is the best beer
Dec 03 20:30:51 <leinir> It's kinda silly... android doesn't know how to read the contacts on my sim, but all the other distros do ;)
Dec 03 20:31:07 <neldoreth> bumbl: yeah its about 1 hour driving, but its the best :P
Dec 03 20:32:48 <nihil> leinir, sean_mcneils android or the koolu one?
Dec 03 20:33:16 <leinir> sean's :)
Dec 03 20:33:41 <nihil> ic ;)
Dec 03 20:33:55 <nihil> anyone tried out koolu build?
Dec 03 20:34:06 <leinir> It also seems that it doesn't much like sound... at all :)
Dec 03 20:35:14 <nihil> to bad ;) 
Dec 03 20:35:15 <leinir> Crashes when i try and turn on Audible selection, just restarts settings whenever i try setting a ringtone...
Dec 03 20:35:26 <leinir> Hehe, yeah :)
Dec 03 20:36:53 <nihil> well i guess most of the issues are fixed at the koolu source. however getting it onto the phone is the problem
Dec 03 20:38:23 <bumbl> Fougner_: as neldoreth said, if you don't need that much traffic get a prepaid hsdpa sim card at hofer (the austrian equivalent to aldi)
Dec 03 20:38:43 <mmp> tifereth: hello; sorry I wasn't online yesterday, I forgot my laptop's adapter at work...
Dec 03 20:39:02 <tifereth> ;-) not that big problem
Dec 03 20:44:07 <Fougner_> neldoreth, I don't know if we have internet access or not. but I'll see if I can buy a prepaid hsdpa sim card somewhere. it's a usual mobile SIM right?
Dec 03 20:44:20 <Fougner_> mmp, hey =D
Dec 03 20:44:31 <mmp> Fougner_: hi :)
Dec 03 20:44:48 <Fougner_> bumbl, okay, so the phone will act as the gateway to internet then? =)
Dec 03 20:44:50 <neldoreth> Fougner_: yes it is, but you need a specific modem for it
Dec 03 20:44:55 <Fougner_> oh
Dec 03 20:44:58 <neldoreth> or you can use a phone
Dec 03 20:45:02 <Fougner_> good
Dec 03 20:45:05 <Fougner_> G900i =)
Dec 03 20:45:12 <Fougner_> and Freerunner didn't work you said?
Dec 03 20:45:50 <neldoreth> you can do following: connect to the internet with a phone and connect via bluetooth to it then (with the fr)
Dec 03 20:45:53 <Fougner_> I think the prices for HSDPA is quite low though.. here in Sweden the rates are about 1,5€ / MB =)
Dec 03 20:46:05 <neldoreth> cause the fr doesnt support those afaik 
Dec 03 20:46:29 <neldoreth> but the normal i-connection is cheaper than in austria, isnt it?
Dec 03 20:46:40 <Fougner_> i-connection?
Dec 03 20:46:44 <Fougner_> internet?
Dec 03 20:46:44 <neldoreth> internet connection
Dec 03 20:46:45 <neldoreth> yes
Dec 03 20:47:15 <Fougner_> well, I've got ADSL, 24/1, actually, it's 16/~2
Dec 03 20:47:27 <Fougner_> price, around 35€/month
Dec 03 20:47:41 <neldoreth> ok here you pay for something like that about 70
Dec 03 20:47:53 <Fougner_> yay
Dec 03 20:47:57 <Fougner_> what about 100/100? ;)
Dec 03 20:48:02 <neldoreth> not available :P
Dec 03 20:48:05 <Fougner_> haha
Dec 03 20:48:13 <neldoreth> maximum is 25/2
Dec 03 20:48:25 <Fougner_> well, now I know you and bumbl live in Austria.. good to know, =)
Dec 03 20:48:32 <max_posedon> In my contry 1Mbit ADSL costs near 1'000$, your are very lucky...
Dec 03 20:48:40 <Fougner_> max_posedon, where do you live?
Dec 03 20:48:47 <max_posedon> Belarus, Minsk
Dec 03 20:48:52 <F4t> :)
Dec 03 20:49:09 <Fougner_> hmm, something tells me it's close to Russia
Dec 03 20:49:23 <F4t> Here 1Mbit ADSL is around 20$
Dec 03 20:49:32 <Fougner_> F4t, where? =P
Dec 03 20:49:32 <max_posedon> Fougner_, yes)
Dec 03 20:49:44 <Fougner_> ok
Dec 03 20:49:55 <F4t> Fougner_, israel
Dec 03 20:50:30 <Fougner_> F4t, oh, Don't mess with the Zohan then ;)
Dec 03 20:50:36 <F4t> Heh
Dec 03 20:50:54 <F4t> wheres 35 euro/month?
Dec 03 20:51:09 <F4t> what 24/1 16/2?
Dec 03 20:52:17 <Fougner_> F4t, it should be 24/1, for about 35€
Dec 03 20:52:39 <Fougner_> but the actual speed is around 16 down
Dec 03 20:52:52 <Fougner_> oh, maybe I'm wrong, it's up to 24/2,5Mbit
Dec 03 20:52:58 <Fougner_> but I get like 16/2
Dec 03 20:53:44 <Fougner_> neldoreth, I've heard a lot about the austrian people. you don't want to know :P
Dec 03 20:54:07 <neldoreth> Fougner_: tell us :P
Dec 03 20:54:09 <bumbl> i get conventional telephone network, 2 mobile sims, adsl 2mbit / don't know upload flat, and iptv for 24€ which is quite cheap
Dec 03 20:54:15 <bumbl> max_posedon: that sucks
Dec 03 20:55:00 <bumbl> Fougner_: you don't mess with zohan was lame
Dec 03 20:55:09 <bumbl> old jokes nothing new and a weird story line
Dec 03 20:55:11 <zash> you don't mess with the zash
Dec 03 20:55:41 <Fougner_> bumbl, haha, I don't know anything about Israel :O
Dec 03 20:56:07 <max_posedon> bumbl, hm... yes... But, I don't know what do you do with your YYMbit)
Dec 03 20:56:19 <bumbl> Fougner_: what have you heard about austrians? we are all facists?
Dec 03 20:56:40 <toggles_w> bumbl: nein
Dec 03 20:56:53 <bumbl> max_posedon: 2Mbit ... loading down linux distrubutions, openmoko images, etc fast enough for me
Dec 03 20:56:59 <Fougner_> neldoreth, this is what I've heard from other people visiting St Anton and stuff. "they're very grumpy (sour)"
Dec 03 20:57:21 * zash will get 100Mbps this month
Dec 03 20:57:22 <zash> <3
Dec 03 20:57:29 <Fougner_> bumbl, don't speak for me now
Dec 03 20:57:34 <zash> .se ftw
Dec 03 20:57:37 <neldoreth> Fougner_: yeah may cause st. anton is full of tourists and there is nothing else there :P
Dec 03 20:57:52 <Fougner_> neldoreth, that's what I thought too
Dec 03 20:57:58 <bumbl> more speed is good if you can get it cheap, 54k sucked
Dec 03 20:58:19 <Fougner_> max_posedon, I'm into piracy.. that's what I use my YY-mbit for =)
Dec 03 20:58:38 <bumbl> hmm ... *cough* sweden *cough*
Dec 03 20:58:42 <Fougner_> :D
Dec 03 20:58:45 <Fougner_> of course
Dec 03 20:58:48 <max_posedon> bumbl, I have some kind of evening/nigth unlim (256kbit) since 18'00 till 9'00 for 40$/month, so I donwnload all at night. Not a big deal, but I can't donwload a lot of films/etc)
Dec 03 20:59:13 <Fougner_> bumbl, yeaaah exactley
Dec 03 20:59:19 <Fougner_> love sweden
Dec 03 20:59:33 <Fougner_> bumbl, how's the piracy in Austria?
Dec 03 20:59:40 <bumbl> piratebiarn will get your goverment down sooner or later
Dec 03 20:59:51 <Fougner_> bumbl, piratebyrån? =)
Dec 03 20:59:57 <bumbl> Fougner_: yep
Dec 03 21:00:09 <Fougner_> ehehe
Dec 03 21:00:13 <bumbl> piracy in Austria ...
Dec 03 21:00:13 <Fougner_> piratbyrån*
Dec 03 21:00:18 <Fougner_> yeah
Dec 03 21:00:37 <Fougner_> I'll bring some downloaded movies and stuff
Dec 03 21:00:38 <bumbl> my former isp sent me an email that it is legal to download stuff
Dec 03 21:00:48 <bumbl> and i should download more
Dec 03 21:01:02 <neldoreth> oO?
Dec 03 21:01:10 <Fougner_> bumbl, my current ISP has sent me one too
Dec 03 21:01:24 <Fougner_> no, I mean, illegal :P
Dec 03 21:01:51 <bumbl> download ... tolerated
Dec 03 21:01:54 <Fougner_> okay
Dec 03 21:01:58 <Fougner_> gooood
Dec 03 21:01:58 <Fougner_> xD
Dec 03 21:02:12 <Fougner_> linux is allowed too I guess?
Dec 03 21:02:15 <bumbl> upload ... sometimes problems
Dec 03 21:02:18 <Fougner_> oh
Dec 03 21:02:22 <Fougner_> what's the difference :P
Dec 03 21:02:24 <Fougner_> haha
Dec 03 21:02:33 <Fougner_> I have to upload to get downloads
Dec 03 21:02:35 <Fougner_> nah
Dec 03 21:02:55 <Fougner_> got good ratio already
Dec 03 21:03:13 <Fougner_> like, 1TB, 5.0 ratio
Dec 03 21:03:15 <Fougner_> 1TB up*
Dec 03 21:03:22 <bumbl> Fougner_: p2p ... not good
Dec 03 21:03:26 <Fougner_> oh
Dec 03 21:03:32 <bumbl> if use for illegal things
Dec 03 21:03:36 <Fougner_> ayayay
Dec 03 21:03:43 <bumbl> used
Dec 03 21:03:59 <Fougner_> what else, except p2p, to download stuff then? =S
Dec 03 21:04:25 <F4t> Fougner_, ull have to explain the whole 24/1 16/2 thing? whats the numbers?
Dec 03 21:04:44 <neldoreth> 24mbit upload / 1mbit download
Dec 03 21:04:50 <Fougner_> lol
Dec 03 21:04:55 <Fougner_> neldoreth, reverse
Dec 03 21:05:01 <Fougner_> switch*
Dec 03 21:05:09 <F4t> ow, thats huge speeds...
Dec 03 21:05:12 <Fougner_> 24Mbit download, 1 Upload
Dec 03 21:05:25 <F4t> we have here 8/2 tops
Dec 03 21:05:26 <Fougner_> and that's just us living a bit from the "city"
Dec 03 21:05:28 <neldoreth> ah yeah sorry
Dec 03 21:05:43 <Fougner_> people in the central city can have 100/100 in their apartment
Dec 03 21:06:07 <F4t> jeez
Dec 03 21:06:09 <Fougner_> I've got an xbox with debian on, at my friend's place.. he's got 30/30
Dec 03 21:06:18 <Fougner_> running rtorrent =)
Dec 03 21:06:47 <Fougner_> I can upload some GBs there ;)
Dec 03 21:06:56 <F4t> ;)
Dec 03 21:07:08 <F4t> and i can download them at high speed from there ... :D
Dec 03 21:07:25 <Fougner_> haha
Dec 03 21:07:27 <Fougner_> yeah right :P
Dec 03 21:08:31 <Fougner_> F4t, what protocol do you prefer?
Dec 03 21:08:35 <Fougner_> FPT? SCP?
Dec 03 21:12:31 <sebbs> how is the inputting of text on this device
Dec 03 21:12:41 <sebbs> i am thinking about buying one but i am not quite sure
Dec 03 21:13:30 <max_posedon> if you think you won't like this device
Dec 03 21:13:49 <sebbs> ?
Dec 03 21:14:23 <max_posedon> "if you are still thinking" - You will not like this device, 
Dec 03 21:14:27 <sebbs> i like the fact i can run apt-get on it, and run most of the applications i run on my laptop nativly without having to use crappy ical exporters etc
Dec 03 21:14:32 <max_posedon> first of all, it isn't and user ready)
Dec 03 21:14:47 <sebbs> max_posedon: define user ready
Dec 03 21:15:25 <sebbs> i know its still in development, i have no problem with that, i would prolly even contribute if i was to buy one.
Dec 03 21:15:55 <max_posedon> you can call, you can recive calls(if you are lucky), you can send sms(latin only).
Dec 03 21:16:11 <max_posedon> the end, all other things are still in development
Dec 03 21:16:12 <sebbs> if you are lucky?
Dec 03 21:16:19 <sebbs> latin is fine with me
Dec 03 21:16:29 <sebbs> as long as i can call on it thats ok
Dec 03 21:16:29 <flexd> Uh, this is probably going to be a somewhat stupid question (because i'm sort of assuming the answer is exactly what you would assume with a developer phone)
Dec 03 21:16:30 <flexd> but
Dec 03 21:16:38 <rooly> yeah...its kinda determined by odin and posiedon
Dec 03 21:16:51 <flexd> There's a sticker of sorts over one of the two t6 torq screws to remove the front lid of my FR.
Dec 03 21:16:52 <sebbs> my issues with the phone have purely to do with the fact that i want to input alot of text
Dec 03 21:17:16 <flexd> Does that mean i have some sort of warranty i'd break if i remove the cover or is it just there for some other purpose?
Dec 03 21:17:18 <sebbs> and it seems to have a touchscreen, i have small fingers so thats ok, but i am wondering about how much i can see on the screen while typing since the keyboard would take up spcace
Dec 03 21:17:22 <sebbs> space
Dec 03 21:17:58 <Fougner_> sebbs, get a BT-keyboard
Dec 03 21:18:09 <sebbs> Fougner_: what about battery that would suck to have to think about battery
Dec 03 21:18:11 <rooly> well, you won't be able to write any code on your phone
Dec 03 21:18:13 <Fougner_> it's a big screen, but if you want to text a lot, it's like hell
Dec 03 21:18:28 <sebbs> and how would you type and hold the phone the same time
Dec 03 21:18:29 <Fougner_> sebbs, nothing good there either
Dec 03 21:18:38 <sebbs> Fougner_: ?
Dec 03 21:18:52 <Fougner_> sebbs, one hand holding the phone, one hand typing with a stylus pen
Dec 03 21:19:05 <sebbs> i meant with a bt keyboarc
Dec 03 21:19:07 <sebbs> d
Dec 03 21:19:19 <Fougner_> oh
Dec 03 21:19:21 <Fougner_> haha
Dec 03 21:19:24 <sebbs> :)
Dec 03 21:19:40 <Fougner_> well, as said, a developer phone, nothing to write code out "on the field"
Dec 03 21:19:49 <sebbs> could you do me a favour and run apt-cache search wyrd
Dec 03 21:19:52 <sebbs> on your phone
Dec 03 21:19:55 <Fougner_> nope
Dec 03 21:19:57 <Fougner_> :)
Dec 03 21:19:58 <sebbs> is that package avalible/
Dec 03 21:20:15 <bumbl> apt-cache
Dec 03 21:20:19 <Fougner_> probably you will use another distro than I am
Dec 03 21:20:21 <bumbl> error no debian available
Dec 03 21:20:25 <sebbs> Fougner_: ok
Dec 03 21:20:27 <bumbl> :p
Dec 03 21:20:30 <Fougner_> hehe
Dec 03 21:20:37 <max_posedon> sebbs, I suggest you install qemu neo emulator, and try all you want there
Dec 03 21:20:39 <sebbs> but you use debian packages
Dec 03 21:20:47 <rooly> if you become handy with the keyboard, you'll be able to type using qtopia or asu rather easily
Dec 03 21:20:47 <sebbs> max_posedon: ah great
Dec 03 21:21:02 <Fougner_> sebbs, for the debian you can install all the ARM packages
Dec 03 21:21:03 <sebbs> rooly: can you like edit text in vi easy?
Dec 03 21:21:14 <sebbs> Fougner_: thats great :D
Dec 03 21:21:17 <Fougner_> but still, there will be work to get some things to work =)
Dec 03 21:21:23 <sebbs> Fougner_: that means i can compile stuff if its not there
Dec 03 21:21:37 <Fougner_> sebbs, I'm no expert, but I guess so
Dec 03 21:21:58 <sebbs> Fougner_: well i started using linux back when i was 14, i could not get my soundcard working for like 6 months
Dec 03 21:22:11 <sebbs> im ok with that
Dec 03 21:22:26 <max_posedon> ))
Dec 03 21:22:42 <sebbs> i get a bit crazy fro mthinking about compiling my own kernel on my phone
Dec 03 21:22:59 <sebbs> "yeah i cant call cos my cpu load is too high, im compiling my kernel"
Dec 03 21:23:07 <sebbs> its appealing
Dec 03 21:23:20 <jonkristian> lol
Dec 03 21:23:29 <max_posedon> kernel isn't a problem, the biggest problem is 640x480 for your gui applications 
Dec 03 21:23:40 <max_posedon> pidgin for example looks *very* ugly
Dec 03 21:23:42 <sebbs> ?? it has 640x480??
Dec 03 21:23:42 <badcloud> apt, how old are you?
Dec 03 21:23:43 <apt> 900 ... like Yoda ...
Dec 03 21:23:49 <jonkristian> sebbs: that'll be my new voicemail message
Dec 03 21:23:53 <sebbs> wow thats better then i thought
Dec 03 21:23:53 <max_posedon> sebbs, yes
Dec 03 21:23:57 <sebbs> im just gonna use terminal anyway
Dec 03 21:23:58 <sebbs> and mutt
Dec 03 21:24:01 <sebbs> rawr
Dec 03 21:24:08 <sebbs> and vi
Dec 03 21:24:13 <sebbs> and links
Dec 03 21:24:22 <sebbs> and remind+wyrd
Dec 03 21:24:30 <jonkristian> nice quality apps:)
Dec 03 21:24:32 <sebbs> yea
Dec 03 21:24:39 <sebbs> thats the only reason i am willing to sell my phone i have now
Dec 03 21:24:46 <sebbs> cos i hate ics files
Dec 03 21:24:58 <sebbs> i have symbian on my phone its really sucky
Dec 03 21:25:09 <flexd> Im guessing since i dont have a guitar pick, some sort of flat object would work? Like a credit card?
Dec 03 21:25:17 <sebbs> i have to crack stuff(!!) i have not cracked stuff for like since windows 95 i think
Dec 03 21:26:01 <sebbs> im gonna install that emulator thing and try it out
Dec 03 21:26:16 <jonkristian> someone should create a ncurses phone app, with adressbook and dialing and stuff
Dec 03 21:26:22 <sebbs> i would go back to console for ever
Dec 03 21:26:29 <sebbs> there are
Dec 03 21:26:34 <sebbs> oh
Dec 03 21:26:37 <sebbs> dialing
Dec 03 21:26:41 <sebbs> haha that would be cool
Dec 03 21:26:43 <max_posedon> hm... neo it's great toy anyway) may be it's sometimes works bad, but it relly interesting)
Dec 03 21:26:50 <sebbs> and python runs on it 
Dec 03 21:27:01 <sebbs> perfectly with all the libs
Dec 03 21:27:07 <jonkristian> sebbs: yeah like sky's the limit, get contact lists, receiving and dialing
Dec 03 21:27:13 <jonkristian> text messages etc.
Dec 03 21:27:18 <sebbs> sweet
Dec 03 21:27:26 <sebbs> and you could build amazing syncing stuff
Dec 03 21:27:32 <sebbs> when you get on your network, magic would happend
Dec 03 21:27:37 <sebbs> scripts would start
Dec 03 21:27:40 <sebbs> cronjobs would run
Dec 03 21:27:42 <sebbs> ^^
Dec 03 21:27:53 <sebbs> when is the next openmoko coming?
Dec 03 21:28:04 <sebbs> or is this one gonna be the one for a while?
Dec 03 21:28:11 <max_posedon> when you prepared it for us)
Dec 03 21:28:36 <jonkristian> ooh yeah, it's practically all there though
Dec 03 21:28:46 <jonkristian> except maybe the dialer part
Dec 03 21:29:26 <sebbs> i wonder where i would get the phone though
Dec 03 21:36:32 <Fougner_> jonkristian, HAHAH
Dec 03 21:36:38 <Fougner_> mine voicemail too ;)
Dec 03 21:40:11 <jonkristian> Fougner_: :)
Dec 03 21:40:30 <Fougner_> jonkristian, :D:D
Dec 03 21:40:51 <jonkristian> The Om.testing stuff, man, good stuff
Dec 03 21:41:02 <sebbs> can you really sit on your phone and chat?
Dec 03 21:41:06 <sebbs> does it work well?
Dec 03 21:41:26 <jonkristian> sebbs: depends on how big an a** you got:D
Dec 03 21:41:30 <Fougner_> sebbs, no, at least please hold it in your hand, 
Dec 03 21:41:34 <sebbs> hey does cellwriter work?
Dec 03 21:41:38 <Fougner_> jonkristian, crap, you're too quick
Dec 03 21:41:49 <jonkristian> Fougner_: i know
Dec 03 21:42:00 <sebbs> Fougner_: atleast please hold waht in my hand
Dec 03 21:42:01 <Fougner_> :P
Dec 03 21:42:08 <Fougner_> sebbs, the phone..
Dec 03 21:42:17 <sebbs> where would i get one to hold?
Dec 03 21:42:18 <Fougner_> you're not supposed to sit on it ;D
Dec 03 21:42:25 <sebbs> sit on it?
Dec 03 21:42:29 <sebbs> u high boy?
Dec 03 21:42:45 <Fougner_> <sebbs> can you really sit on your phone and chat?
Dec 03 21:42:52 <sebbs> ah
Dec 03 21:42:54 <jonkristian> lol, he didn't get it
Dec 03 21:42:55 <Fougner_> NO, sebbs, YOU are =)
Dec 03 21:42:57 <sebbs> that is really funny
Dec 03 21:43:02 <jonkristian> sebbs: yes, we know
Dec 03 21:43:04 <Fougner_> yeah, somewhat boring too
Dec 03 21:43:05 <sebbs> because 1# yes i am high
Dec 03 21:43:08 <Fougner_> HAHA
Dec 03 21:43:10 <sebbs> 2. its grammar
Dec 03 21:43:17 <sebbs> in my language you say "sit on the phone"
Dec 03 21:43:25 <Fougner_> sebbs, what language?
Dec 03 21:43:28 <sebbs> perhaps you dont in english
Dec 03 21:43:32 <sebbs> swedish
Dec 03 21:43:41 <Fougner_> nej sebbs , man säger inte, "sitta på telefonen"
Dec 03 21:43:42 <jonkristian> In my language i say "sit on my p****"
Dec 03 21:43:45 <sebbs> de go man visst
Dec 03 21:43:49 <sebbs> han sitter pa telefonen
Dec 03 21:44:07 <sebbs> if a person is busy talking
Dec 03 21:44:09 <Fougner_> väldigt mycket slang i det, äru från Stockholm eller? ;)
Dec 03 21:44:19 <sebbs> haha yes i am ^^
Dec 03 21:44:21 <jonkristian> Vi sier, han sitter i telefonen, høres forsåvidt like rart ut:D
Dec 03 21:44:38 <Fougner_> gotcha!
Dec 03 21:44:45 <sebbs> skanidnaver
Dec 03 21:44:46 <Fougner_> haha
Dec 03 21:45:01 <sebbs> and its not telefonen
Dec 03 21:45:03 <sebbs> its luren
Dec 03 21:45:08 <flexd> :o
Dec 03 21:45:08 <Fougner_> bleh
Dec 03 21:45:09 <sebbs> han sitter pa luren
Dec 03 21:45:12 <Fougner_> å det heter "reven"
Dec 03 21:45:15 <flexd> FR with proper screen protector = aweome :D
Dec 03 21:45:16 <Fougner_> inte räven
Dec 03 21:45:22 <sebbs> revare
Dec 03 21:45:27 <Fougner_> flexd, how did you do? =D
Dec 03 21:45:29 <flexd> Norske folk faktisk? :o
Dec 03 21:45:43 <sebbs> jag har varit i nordnorge
Dec 03 21:45:59 <Fougner_> sebbs, jag har varit i nordSthlm
Dec 03 21:46:02 <flexd> Fougner_, kjøpte screen protector fra clas ohlson til 39kr.
Dec 03 21:46:04 <lindi-> flexd: i wish there was somebody who could install the screen protector for me properly
Dec 03 21:46:07 <flexd> Det ble bra.
Dec 03 21:46:13 <sebbs> Fougner_: botkyrka stylee
Dec 03 21:46:18 <flexd> lindi-, it took me two attempts here :/
Dec 03 21:46:24 <lindi-> flexd: jag betalade bara 9 EUR
Dec 03 21:46:30 <flexd> only thing i need now is proper software and battery life :D
Dec 03 21:46:35 <sebbs> screen protector?
Dec 03 21:46:39 <lindi-> flexd: did you remove it after a few days?
Dec 03 21:46:49 <flexd> lindi-, i attached it like 5 seconds ago
Dec 03 21:46:51 <flexd> so no, not yet.
Dec 03 21:46:54 <lindi-> flexd: ok
Dec 03 21:47:01 <lindi-> flexd: extra battery is easiest solution
Dec 03 21:47:03 <Fougner_> lindi-, lol, 9EUR = 90kr
Dec 03 21:47:05 <sebbs>     Kernel is... not found
Dec 03 21:47:08 <sebbs> funny
Dec 03 21:47:15 <lindi-> Fougner_: i have http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.3060
Dec 03 21:47:17 <lindi-> Rechargeable USB Emergency Power Backup Pack 2400mAh $14.43
Dec 03 21:47:23 <Wonka> aaaaargh. i am honestly thinking about disabling ogpsd, ripping it out of frameworkd and running it externally from frameworkd.
Dec 03 21:47:42 <sebbs> whats the battery time on your moko irl
Dec 03 21:47:45 <sebbs> with apps running etc
Dec 03 21:47:50 <lindi-> Fougner_: i'm not really up to date with those currencies :)
Dec 03 21:48:04 <Fougner_> lindi-, xD
Dec 03 21:48:10 <lindi-> Wonka: i disabled everything i could from frameworkd
Dec 03 21:48:42 <Fougner_> lindi-, finnish?
Dec 03 21:48:46 <lindi-> Fougner_: yeah
Dec 03 21:48:47 <Wonka> lindi-: is there some gypsy implementation using ubx besides frameworkd?
Dec 03 21:48:58 <lindi-> Wonka: i don't know. i use normal gpsd
Dec 03 21:49:06 <sebbs> kuka on soumalainen?
Dec 03 21:49:07 <lindi-> Wonka: gupsy implementation should be trivial?
Dec 03 21:49:20 <Fougner_> lindi-, the screen protector flexd bought cost him about 4EUR
Dec 03 21:49:20 <Wonka> lindi-: didn't try yet.
Dec 03 21:49:29 <Fougner_> just FYI :)
Dec 03 21:49:36 <lindi-> Fougner_: yeah, realized that. but it probably wasn't invisible shield(tm) :P
Dec 03 21:49:40 <mickey|leipzig> Wonka: what's your problem w/ ogpsd? did you write a bug report?
Dec 03 21:49:48 <Wonka> lindi-: i edited a lot in zhone's gps stuff today, and that uses gypsy... would like to continue using that
Dec 03 21:50:03 <Fougner_> lindi-, oh, that one :D well that's cheap XD
Dec 03 21:50:05 <lindi-> Wonka: i don't want GSM ui to be also GPS ui :)
Dec 03 21:50:34 <Wonka> lindi-: i'd rip that out of zhone anyway because i don't like the rest - but even then it's gypsy
Dec 03 21:50:49 <Fougner_> puuh
Dec 03 21:50:51 <Fougner_> well guys
Dec 03 21:50:53 <Fougner_> time to sleep
Dec 03 21:50:55 <lindi-> Wonka: yeah just write gupsy wrapper for gpsd
Dec 03 21:50:58 <Fougner_> tough day tomorrow =)
Dec 03 21:51:05 <Fougner_> AUSTRIA HERE I COME =D=D=D
Dec 03 21:51:28 <Wonka> mickey|leipzig: problem is, my GPS stuff tends to hang for minutes sometimes. like "every 5 to 30 minutes".
Dec 03 21:51:52 <Wonka> mickey|leipzig: in dmesg, i see messages about rxerrs
Dec 03 21:51:55 <sebbs> good luck Fougner_ 
Dec 03 21:52:01 <mickey|leipzig> Wonka: interesting. that's not supposed to happen. please open a bug report with detailed logs. alphaone will check asap
Dec 03 21:52:08 <rick_> can someone help me on the pleas, while following the "http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Automatic_emulation_in_Ubuntu" tutorial and running the command "make run-qemu". it stopt after this: ""
Dec 03 21:52:09 <rick_> Retrieving available builds list...
Dec 03 21:52:09 <rick_>     Kernel is... not found
Dec 03 21:52:31 <Wonka> mickey|leipzig: could you tell me where? which of the many bugtrackers?
Dec 03 21:52:53 <SpeedEvil> linuxxr: there is lots of useful stuff for your FR on that site.
Dec 03 21:52:59 <SpeedEvil> lindi:
Dec 03 21:53:30 <jonkristian> i wonder where the illume-config (wrench) went.
Dec 03 21:53:36 <SpeedEvil> http://dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.849 - look familiar?
Dec 03 21:53:57 <Fougner_> sebbs, thanks
Dec 03 21:54:38 <lindi-> SpeedEvil: heh :)
Dec 03 21:54:44 <SpeedEvil> And http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.10313
Dec 03 21:55:01 <lindi-> SpeedEvil: i'm not using stylus at all actually, only finger
Dec 03 21:55:29 <lindi-> SpeedEvil: looks quite useless :P
Dec 03 21:55:34 <Fougner_> lindi-, very brave of you ^^
Dec 03 21:55:45 <badcloud> don't you cramp up after a while in the hand, lindi?
Dec 03 21:56:01 <mickey|leipzig> Wonka: as ogpsd is a framework part, it's best on trac.freesmartphone.org
Dec 03 21:56:13 <SpeedEvil> linuxxr: alternatively - http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.2700
Dec 03 21:57:14 <metalx1000> got my freerunner a few hours ago.  I'm connected to it through usb.  I can ping.  but ssh port 22 does not show up in port scan.  
Dec 03 21:57:21 <metalx1000> is sshd install by defualt
Dec 03 21:57:28 <metalx1000> or do I have to install it
Dec 03 21:57:32 <lindi-> badcloud: i think it's much easier
Dec 03 21:57:42 <badcloud> you must have small fingers then
Dec 03 21:57:47 <SpeedEvil> metalx1000: are you sure you're trying to connect to it?
Dec 03 21:57:54 <lindi-> badcloud: just large virtual keyboard
Dec 03 21:57:55 <metalx1000> yes
Dec 03 21:58:02 <badcloud> ahh, nice
Dec 03 21:58:14 <SpeedEvil> metalx1000: common error 4 is to ifconfig usb0 192.168.0.200, then ssh to 192.168.0.200
Dec 03 21:59:49 <metalx1000> SpeedEvil, I'll try that, but  can ping it and nmap it, it has an ip of 192.168.0.202 now, just port 22 is closed
Dec 03 22:00:01 <SpeedEvil> k
Dec 03 22:00:26 <Fougner_> can you FTP it? :)
Dec 03 22:01:05 <Fougner_> apt shoot Dave
Dec 03 22:01:07 * apt shoots Dave in the head with a cork gun!
Dec 03 22:01:14 <Fougner_> apt shoot badcloud 
Dec 03 22:01:16 * apt shoots badcloud in the head with a cork gun!
Dec 03 22:01:22 <SpeedEvil> raster: Oh - completed that md5sum of pages of my desktop - finding 40% of pages had dupes. One duped 85000 times. (of 256K pages) haven't tried a similar excersize on my FR, as I can't get the dump.
Dec 03 22:01:30 <badcloud> ouch...
Dec 03 22:01:54 <badcloud> what's up, Fougner?
Dec 03 22:02:05 <lindi-> SpeedEvil: /dev/mem exists?
Dec 03 22:02:15 <Fougner_> badcloud, going to germany tomorrow ;)
Dec 03 22:02:34 <Fougner_> then after night in Germany, travel to Austria =)
Dec 03 22:02:36 <SpeedEvil> lindi-: exists, but everything segfaults on acess
Dec 03 22:02:41 <lindi-> SpeedEvil: really?
Dec 03 22:02:49 <badcloud> atp, shoot, I forgot my gun
Dec 03 22:02:59 <SpeedEvil> linuxxr: really - though I have a Ooold kernel.
Dec 03 22:03:01 <SpeedEvil> lindk:
Dec 03 22:03:07 <lindi-> SpeedEvil: dd: reading `/dev/mem': Bad address
Dec 03 22:03:14 <badcloud> yikes, lots of traveling
Dec 03 22:03:18 <lindi-> SpeedEvil: but no segfault
Dec 03 22:03:27 <Fougner_> badcloud, haha, maybe
Dec 03 22:03:43 <Fougner_> going to stay in Austria for some months
Dec 03 22:04:12 <badcloud> apt, shoot, I forgot my gun
Dec 03 22:04:40 <badcloud> ah, so that's not too bad
Dec 03 22:05:04 <badcloud> I'm just not much of a travel person
Dec 03 22:05:12 <Fougner_> hehe
Dec 03 22:05:24 <Fougner_> I bet you live at your computer desktop ;)
Dec 03 22:05:32 <badcloud> ha, hardly
Dec 03 22:05:40 <badcloud> don't really have a desktop
Dec 03 22:05:46 <raster> SpeedEvil: gah!
Dec 03 22:05:50 <raster> 40%
Dec 03 22:06:02 * SpeedEvil had about 80 FF windows open
Dec 03 22:06:10 <raster> SpeedEvil: desktop - much more likely as u likely run many more procs
Dec 03 22:06:15 <SpeedEvil> of course
Dec 03 22:06:22 <raster> eg many gtk or qt apps that have the exact same init proceedure
Dec 03 22:06:32 <raster> thus likely populate the exact same initial set of pages
Dec 03 22:06:38 <SpeedEvil> Though I again note I've frequently had my laptop with 128M RAM up and running FF1.5 with 20 windows open
Dec 03 22:06:50 <raster> tho dups WITHIN a process i kind of find unlikely
Dec 03 22:06:58 <SpeedEvil> raster: it's firefox
Dec 03 22:07:00 <SpeedEvil> :)
Dec 03 22:07:03 <raster> as malloc will probably not page-align allocs much
Dec 03 22:07:09 <raster> unless they are big fat > 1mb ones
Dec 03 22:07:11 <SpeedEvil> Oh - that's true.
Dec 03 22:07:18 <SpeedEvil> Hadn't thought of that.
Dec 03 22:07:35 <raster> and those are possibly data (such as an image) and at that point ffox in this case probably should have some form of share dcache
Dec 03 22:07:46 <badcloud> so what's does koolu's involvement really mean aside from the Android plat.?
Dec 03 22:08:05 <raster> it would be interestign to find otu what processes those duped pages belonged to
Dec 03 22:08:36 <SpeedEvil> raster: yep. And I need to work out how to extract neo RAM image.
Dec 03 22:08:42 * SpeedEvil ponders gdb
Dec 03 22:08:56 <mmp> raster: hello; I wanted to ask one thing you might know to answer -- one my friend was running e-based distro with zhone and few other applications; interesting thing was, that some 'e' applications were much faster when zhone was running, when compared to running just them alone...
Dec 03 22:09:23 <Fougner_> mmp I know the answer ^^
Dec 03 22:09:32 <linuxxr> Speedevil   which site?
Dec 03 22:09:39 <mmp> Fougner_: why?
Dec 03 22:09:53 <SpeedEvil> linuxxr: sorry - blame lindi-'s similar name, and my terrible completion habits.
Dec 03 22:09:58 <Fougner_> haha, I don't :P
Dec 03 22:10:00 <SpeedEvil> linuxxr: dealextreme.com
Dec 03 22:10:07 <linuxxr> haha
Dec 03 22:10:08 <lindi-> SpeedEvil: # CONFIG_DEVKMEM is not set?
Dec 03 22:10:19 <SpeedEvil> linuxxr: I suspect not
Dec 03 22:10:56 <lindi-> SpeedEvil: maybe most of the pages were full of zeroes?
Dec 03 22:11:04 <SpeedEvil> lindi-: that's also a possibility
Dec 03 22:11:16 <SpeedEvil> lindi-: the 86K ones at least.
Dec 03 22:11:18 <Fougner_> goodnight to you all :P
Dec 03 22:11:27 <mmp> Fougner_: night :)
Dec 03 22:11:47 <Fougner_> mmp, eeeey, how about the projectt?
Dec 03 22:11:47 <SpeedEvil> lindi-: But about 50% of the total of duped pages wern't duped in such huge numbers.
Dec 03 22:11:48 <Fougner_> -t
Dec 03 22:11:49 <metalx1000> SpeedEvil, I ran "ifconfig usb0 192.168.0.200" as you suggested, I can still ping it and nmap it
Dec 03 22:11:57 <metalx1000> but port 22 still is closed
Dec 03 22:12:13 <Fougner_> metalx1000, what's your computer's IP?
Dec 03 22:12:17 <mmp> Fougner_: no progress so far, school takes too much of my time recently :)
Dec 03 22:12:21 <SpeedEvil> metalx1000: what does your screen look like?
Dec 03 22:12:26 <Fougner_> mmp, affirmitive
Dec 03 22:12:27 <raster> SpeedEvil: knowing who those pages belong to an the dups and the nature of the dups will really help
Dec 03 22:12:33 <SpeedEvil> raster: of course.
Dec 03 22:12:37 <raster> SpeedEvil:  example - are 90% of the dups 0-pages?
Dec 03 22:12:39 <sebbs> ok i want this phone
Dec 03 22:12:50 <raster> which processes are makign the dups
Dec 03 22:12:55 <sebbs> this phone has 100% linux compatability, it just could not get any better
Dec 03 22:12:58 <SpeedEvil> raster: there were about 40% of the dups - 86K sharing the same sum.
Dec 03 22:13:05 <Fougner_> sebbs, hehe
Dec 03 22:13:07 <metalx1000> Fougner, 192.168.1.4 is my laptops ip
Dec 03 22:13:09 <raster> and then... hopefulyl we can figure out what toolkit lib etc. behavior causes it and maybe nuke it at the source
Dec 03 22:13:11 <Fougner_> sebbs, www.openmoko.se
Dec 03 22:13:13 <sebbs> well x86 processor might make it better
Dec 03 22:13:15 <raster> :)
Dec 03 22:13:18 <sebbs> Fougner_: i dont live in sweden
Dec 03 22:13:30 <Fougner_> sebbs, oh sorry
Dec 03 22:13:30 <raster> hmm
Dec 03 22:13:31 <raster> same sum
Dec 03 22:13:32 <SpeedEvil> raster: I assume those were zeros. I need to look at process mapping, and work out how to get a dump from the neo, and ...
Dec 03 22:13:39 <Fougner_> sebbs, where then?
Dec 03 22:13:41 <raster> my guess is that'd either be 0 byte pages
Dec 03 22:13:51 <metalx1000> SpeedEvil, the phones screen? or my laptops? 
Dec 03 22:13:52 <sebbs> Fougner_: spain
Dec 03 22:13:54 <raster> or maybe the same dynamically alloced pages glibc uses for some initial setup
Dec 03 22:13:59 <raster> as everyone shareds glibc...
Dec 03 22:14:03 <raster> they share the same setup pages
Dec 03 22:14:09 <SpeedEvil> metalx1000: sorry - to clarify - what distribution is your phone running?
Dec 03 22:14:13 * SpeedEvil is unsure.
Dec 03 22:14:18 <Fougner_> sebbs, ahh, well then I can't help you :P
Dec 03 22:14:24 <sebbs> €372 thats alot
Dec 03 22:14:27 <SpeedEvil> (as to what recently shipped FRs have on them)
Dec 03 22:14:36 <raster> mmp: what e-base distro?
Dec 03 22:14:43 <raster> and what e applications?
Dec 03 22:14:53 <metalx1000> SpeedEvil, OpenMoko that it came with I think 2007.8
Dec 03 22:15:17 <mmp> raster: I actually don't know; I will ask him in near future; I remember he showed it to me and it looked quite interestingly....
Dec 03 22:15:28 <Fougner_> metalx1000, I've got a script that always fixes my problems, regardless to what distro I'm using.. so far
Dec 03 22:15:39 <mmp> I guess it was either FDOM or FSO, but don't know what releases
Dec 03 22:15:41 <Fougner_> metalx1000, PM?
Dec 03 22:16:11 <raster> mmp: and how do u know they run "faster" ?
Dec 03 22:16:31 <raster> or do u merely mean - they start faster?
Dec 03 22:16:38 <sebbs> what is th ebattery time on the openmoko when listning to music
Dec 03 22:16:38 <mmp> raster: visually faster
Dec 03 22:16:39 <sebbs> ?
Dec 03 22:16:44 <mmp> raster: now I remember a bit
Dec 03 22:16:55 <sebbs> do you have to charge it everyday or what?
Dec 03 22:17:08 <SpeedEvil> sebbs: battery life at the moment is almost a joke.
Dec 03 22:17:12 <mmp> raster: he was writing simple application which would just move small rectangle on the screen using python and etk
Dec 03 22:17:18 <raster> SpeedEvil: yeah. but a dump from the neo would be useful - as well as a process table vm dump of some sort
Dec 03 22:17:21 <sebbs> SpeedEvil: explain
Dec 03 22:17:25 <SpeedEvil> sebbs: _lots_ of software development needs to happen before it can be called good.
Dec 03 22:17:37 <mmp> without zhone, the rectangle moved visibly slower than with it
Dec 03 22:17:44 <sebbs> how often do you have to charge the phone
Dec 03 22:17:58 <sebbs> i bet alot of the code around is not optimized for battery
Dec 03 22:18:07 <raster> mmp: i can't explain that
Dec 03 22:18:12 <SpeedEvil> sebbs: that's the least problem
Dec 03 22:18:25 <SpeedEvil> http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973_GTA01_Power_Management
Dec 03 22:18:26 <sebbs> SpeedEvil: elaborate
Dec 03 22:18:29 <sebbs> thanks
Dec 03 22:18:38 <SpeedEvil> sebbs: conventional 'optimisation' isn't where the large problems lie
Dec 03 22:18:39 <mmp> raster: neither we could :) I can try to get some more data, or complete testcase...
Dec 03 22:18:42 <Fougner_> sebbs, om du slår igång alla saker på den kommer den vara igång under ca 4 timmar
Dec 03 22:18:49 <sirkha_top> so, looks like the GTA03 still won't have 3g
Dec 03 22:19:14 <raster> SpeedEvil:  mind u i wouldnt expect 40%of paged to be duped on the neo - more likely 20% - but that is still significant... and possibly worth using the module :)
Dec 03 22:19:21 <SpeedEvil> sirkha_top: As far as I've been able to gather, GTA03 hasn't even had - in its present majorly changed form - 
Dec 03 22:19:23 <sirkha_top> or am i inferring incorrectly from the modem they say they are using (which says it does edge)
Dec 03 22:19:37 <Fougner_> sebbs, om du ska använda den som en vanlig telefon å använda dig av "suspend"-funktionen, kommer den klara näääästan ett dygn om du har tur.. och då räknar vi med att du inte använder luren
Dec 03 22:19:37 <SpeedEvil> sirka: had a debug board made
Dec 03 22:19:53 <SpeedEvil> sirk; I mean a prototype board
Dec 03 22:20:19 <SpeedEvil> sirkha_top: so it's likely to be a fair way off :/
Dec 03 22:20:37 <sirkha_top> SpeedEvil: yeah, i was reading the mailing list, it just said someone was playing with the modem developer's board for the GTA03 modem
Dec 03 22:20:37 <sebbs> when you say everything running do you mean like video playback?
Dec 03 22:20:54 <SpeedEvil> sebbs: IIRC, yes. 
Dec 03 22:21:09 <sebbs> so 4 hours with video playback is quite ok
Dec 03 22:21:14 <sebbs> my nokia does about that
Dec 03 22:21:20 <SpeedEvil> sebbs: but those were very preliminary numbers. I also don't know how the FR does.
Dec 03 22:21:28 <sebbs> FR?
Dec 03 22:21:33 <mortenlysgaard> Hi, I'm just wondering. Is there any daily testing kernel for FSO?
Dec 03 22:21:39 <SpeedEvil> FreeRunner - the current version
Dec 03 22:21:50 <sebbs> SpeedEvil: you are speaking about the older one?
Dec 03 22:22:05 <SpeedEvil> That was written of the last version of the hardware - many of the software comments are still regrettably accurate, and much is similar internally.
Dec 03 22:22:27 <raster> mmp: for startup times it'd be explained by the python interpreter and bindigns already loaded into ram by zhone
Dec 03 22:22:31 <raster> thus startup should be faster
Dec 03 22:22:39 <raster> but runtime animation should be the same no matter what
Dec 03 22:22:47 <mmp> raster: this was purely runtime...
Dec 03 22:22:54 <sebbs> but i mean the battery time is acceptable thne
Dec 03 22:22:55 <sirkha_top> mortenlysgaard: go to openmoko-cdevel, you might get more info on FSO there
Dec 03 22:23:01 <mmp> I'm not sure whether he did or did not use alpha surface, but that should not matter anyway
Dec 03 22:23:02 <sebbs> With everything on, playing video with sound, for example should get well over 3 hours. (500mW LCD + 320mW CPU + 200mW audio + 50mW GPS. 4.5Wh at 1.1W draw) 
Dec 03 22:23:19 <sirkha_top> i could be totally wrong in recommending that...
Dec 03 22:23:23 <sebbs> that is good, on my nokia it would never work that long, with gps too
Dec 03 22:23:25 <mmp> argh; s/alpha surface/alpha to draw on surface/ :)
Dec 03 22:23:43 <mortenlysgaard> sirkha_top; Do i get you rigth when i think it's a channel?
Dec 03 22:23:57 <sirkha_top> mortenlysgaard: yes
Dec 03 22:24:06 <SpeedEvil> sebbs: I'm unsure of those numbers
Dec 03 22:24:10 <mortenlysgaard> sirkha_top; Thanks! =)
Dec 03 22:24:24 <SpeedEvil> sebbs: I seem to remember actually measuring it and getting something a little different.
Dec 03 22:25:06 <mmp> raster: I'll try to get the testcase...
Dec 03 22:25:28 <mortenlysgaard> sirkha_top; Ah.. "Cannot join, requires keyword"
Dec 03 22:25:40 <sebbs> does it use flash or a harddrive
Dec 03 22:25:41 <sebbs> ?
Dec 03 22:26:09 <sirkha_top> mortenlysgaard: weird, #openmoko-cdevel?
Dec 03 22:26:14 <sirkha_top> not just -devel, but -cdevel
Dec 03 22:26:31 <SpeedEvil> sebbs: flash. 
Dec 03 22:26:40 * SpeedEvil also needs to do some more measuring.
Dec 03 22:27:13 <mortenlysgaard> sirkha_top; There's no one in that channel, I thougth you made a typo and meant #openmoko-devel
Dec 03 22:27:31 <SpeedEvil> #openmoko-cdevel is the open one
Dec 03 22:27:44 <sebbs> cos my only real phone requirement is that i can use debian packages
Dec 03 22:27:46 <SpeedEvil> -devel is the one with the NSA
Dec 03 22:27:46 <sirkha_top> nope, i am in #openmoko-cdevel, so i know there is someone in it :)
Dec 03 22:27:57 <sebbs> so i can run my normal textbased applications on my phone
Dec 03 22:27:59 <sebbs> thats all i want
Dec 03 22:28:06 <sirkha_top> NDA SpeedEvil?
Dec 03 22:28:17 <SpeedEvil> sebbs: As I understand it, it's not a phone when you put debian on it
Dec 03 22:28:22 <mortenlysgaard> sirkha_top; Hm, got it now. Maybe i typoed ;)
Dec 03 22:28:26 <SpeedEvil> sebbs: as there isn't any suitable phone software there.
Dec 03 22:28:30 <SpeedEvil> sirkha_top: err -yes
Dec 03 22:28:37 <sebbs> SpeedEvil: oh
Dec 03 22:28:40 <sirkha_top> SpeedEvil: lol
Dec 03 22:28:46 <raster> mmp: zhone and the test app literally are separate processes
Dec 03 22:29:01 <raster> they dont play games and re-use the same python interpreter process
Dec 03 22:29:02 <raster> ?
Dec 03 22:29:06 <sebbs> SpeedEvil: are you sure?
Dec 03 22:29:06 <SpeedEvil> sebbs: at the moment - the hardware is in a tollerable state. It could be a phone with OK battery life and features.
Dec 03 22:29:11 <sirkha_top> SpeedEvil, sebbs, i thought FSO was workign on debian?
Dec 03 22:29:17 <SpeedEvil> sebbs: no - look at the debian page on the wiki
Dec 03 22:29:22 * SpeedEvil hasn't done debian
Dec 03 22:29:23 <sebbs> what is FSO?
Dec 03 22:29:31 <mmp> raster: I know, that's why I'm asking you; we were comming thourgh all possible options, but came to no reasonable explanation
Dec 03 22:29:37 <SpeedEvil> http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FSO
Dec 03 22:29:42 <sebbs> cheers
Dec 03 22:30:30 * sirkha_top goes to discover if he can save 13 bucks by cutting his own hair, nice talking with yall
Dec 03 22:30:38 <sebbs> so dude, is there anyway i can run my standard textbased applications on the openmoko and use it as a phone?
Dec 03 22:30:45 <SpeedEvil> sirkha_top: of course you can.
Dec 03 22:30:53 <sebbs> can i recompile debian packages to openmoko packages?
Dec 03 22:30:59 <SpeedEvil> sirkha_top: the question is - will you later wish you'd spent the $13
Dec 03 22:31:29 <SpeedEvil> sebbs: As I understand it - not really quite yet.
Dec 03 22:31:56 <sebbs> SpeedEvil: is there anyphone you know of that would let me?
Dec 03 22:31:58 <SpeedEvil> sebbs: there are keyboard problems and other ones on the distributions that are almost there in terms of phone functionality
Dec 03 22:32:13 <raster> mmp: thats very very very odd
Dec 03 22:32:18 <SpeedEvil> sebbs: sorry - unsure
Dec 03 22:32:58 <sebbs> :( hmm i will have to think about it more i guess, and read more
Dec 03 22:33:13 <lindi-> sebbs: you can easily install debian to chroot
Dec 03 22:33:20 <CIA-20> freesmartphone.org: 03mickey 07python-helpers * reb39ce7fb81b 10/fso-apm/apm: fso-apm: show battery status together with capacity
Dec 03 22:33:22 <sebbs> lindi-: well thats good enough :D
Dec 03 22:33:34 <sebbs> thank you lindi- you solved it
Dec 03 22:34:17 <mmp> raster: indeed... but as far as I know there were no side effects that could happen...
Dec 03 22:34:25 <lindi-> sebbs: i did the other way around, i have debian and a minimal set of other apps
Dec 03 22:34:49 <sebbs> lindi-: phone apps?
Dec 03 22:35:08 <sebbs> i would prefer debian, but i need the phone apps so i can make conferens calls
Dec 03 22:35:44 <lindi-> sebbs: yeah
Dec 03 22:35:58 <sebbs> so you can do that? run debian and use it as a phone?
Dec 03 22:36:04 <lindi-> sebbs: fso-frameworkd is in pkg-fso repo and then wrote a minimal phone call UI program in python
Dec 03 22:36:09 <lindi-> sebbs: yeah
Dec 03 22:36:15 <sebbs> sweet :)
Dec 03 22:36:19 <raster> it's only about 1.5km away
Dec 03 22:36:37 <lindi-> sebbs: gps, wlan, bluetooth work with standard software so GSM is the only one where you really need extra stuff
Dec 03 22:36:42 <lindi-> sebbs: (and the kernel of course)
Dec 03 22:36:58 <sebbs> well i will need gsm support
Dec 03 22:37:17 <sebbs> but i could survive on skype i guess
Dec 03 22:37:25 <sebbs> for a while anyway
Dec 03 22:37:43 <mmp> hmm, any idea why on shr, enlightenment takes 15% of CPU while not doing anything?
Dec 03 22:37:52 <sebbs> i mean i could install sendmail on the phone and stuff
Dec 03 22:38:24 <lindi-> sebbs: shh, skype is evil proprietary stuff
Dec 03 22:38:34 <sebbs> lindi-: i know :*(
Dec 03 22:38:40 <lindi-> sebbs: but yes, gsm seems to work
Dec 03 22:38:54 <sebbs> lindi-: i have you seen that stallman app?
Dec 03 22:38:56 <sebbs> its so funny
Dec 03 22:39:37 <lindi-> sebbs: which one?
Dec 03 22:40:20 <raster> mmp: no idea there - it shouldnt.
Dec 03 22:41:16 <mmp> raster: this one is reproducible on actual SHR image; few suspends and resumes, system running for something more than an hour...
Dec 03 22:41:29 <mmp> I guess it's time to install gdb :)
Dec 03 22:41:59 <sebbs> lindi-: vrms
Dec 03 22:42:09 <sebbs> lindi-: http://packages.debian.org/etch/vrms
Dec 03 22:42:13 <lindi-> sebbs: ah but it's not entirely stallman
Dec 03 22:42:20 <lindi-> sebbs: there's a bug report about it
Dec 03 22:42:37 <raster> mmp it could be the gsm gadget
Dec 03 22:42:44 <raster> as it tries to support both qt and fso
Dec 03 22:42:58 <raster> and if neither is working it will keep polling every second
Dec 03 22:43:00 <sebbs> lindi-: i have not seen the bugreport about it.
Dec 03 22:43:16 <mmp> hmm, but this is far more than a second... let me try to remove it
Dec 03 22:43:36 <sebbs> lindi-: how did you get gsm running on your debian installation?
Dec 03 22:43:56 <sebbs> could you refer me to some doc on the matter?
Dec 03 22:44:05 <sebbs> s/doc/docs/
Dec 03 22:44:05 <apt> sebbs meant: could you refer me to some docs on the matter?
Dec 03 22:44:13 <lindi-> sebbs: apt-get install fso-frameworkd
Dec 03 22:44:13 <mmp> raster: weird; the load has dropped
Dec 03 22:44:17 <lindi-> sebbs: the debian wiki has instructions
Dec 03 22:44:21 <sebbs> good apt 
Dec 03 22:44:26 * sebbs pets apt 
Dec 03 22:44:29 <mmp> ahh, enlightenment crashed :-/
Dec 03 22:44:40 <sebbs> lindi-: cool thanks
Dec 03 22:44:42 <KaZeR> hey guys. which Qi version should i use for a gta02v6? which s3c* in fact?
Dec 03 22:45:07 <sebbs> it is possible to charge this phone over usb?
Dec 03 22:45:13 <SpeedEvil> sebbs: yes
Dec 03 22:45:17 <sebbs> while using it?
Dec 03 22:45:24 <KaZeR> sebbs, yes
Dec 03 22:45:27 <sebbs> sweet
Dec 03 22:45:39 <sebbs> ok im sold
Dec 03 22:45:54 <mmp> raster: I'm probably not source of good news :-/
Dec 03 22:45:58 <sebbs> battery problems are ok if you can use a usb cable i am surrounded by computeers everywhere
Dec 03 22:47:58 <raster> it probably is dbus polling
Dec 03 22:48:03 <raster> edbus does some strange things
Dec 03 22:48:09 <raster> i should probbably fix it
Dec 03 22:48:12 <raster> like using idlers
Dec 03 22:48:19 <raster> whihc really are a big no-no for this kind of thing
Dec 03 22:48:34 <mmp> uhm... now it segfaulted again; this starts to be really weird
Dec 03 22:50:54 <mmp> raster: btw, is there any plan to get libemotion to OM?
Dec 03 22:51:08 <raster> no
Dec 03 22:51:16 <raster> as it already builds and workd
Dec 03 22:51:17 <raster> its in oe
Dec 03 22:51:40 <sebbs> how long does it take to charge the phone over usb?
Dec 03 22:51:43 <mmp> also emotion-python bindings?
Dec 03 22:51:46 <raster> in fact - its on the illume images i build
Dec 03 22:51:54 <raster> i have no plans to touch anything python
Dec 03 22:52:15 <mmp> raster: the point is that i'm writing one small mp3 player in python...
Dec 03 22:52:16 <sebbs> lindi-: oh and the phone apps, do i need to run X to use them?
Dec 03 22:52:34 <raster> om will be totally against that
Dec 03 22:52:40 <raster> and make it hard for you
Dec 03 22:52:46 <raster> and make sure your app never is in any feed
Dec 03 22:52:46 <mmp> raster: python?
Dec 03 22:52:53 <raster> no
Dec 03 22:52:54 <raster> mp3
Dec 03 22:53:03 <mmp> ok, media player in general
Dec 03 22:53:08 <mmp> backend is python-gst
Dec 03 22:53:13 <SpeedEvil> Anything capable of mp3 is bad news
Dec 03 22:53:14 <raster> anything related to mpeg2/3/4 etc.
Dec 03 22:53:16 <raster> patents
Dec 03 22:53:19 <mmp> so I can afford to write that :)
Dec 03 22:53:21 <SpeedEvil> as annoying lawyers do stuff to you.
Dec 03 22:53:31 <SpeedEvil> Like impound FRs.
Dec 03 22:53:34 <raster> SpeedEvil:  mpeg2 as well
Dec 03 22:53:37 <raster> and mp4
Dec 03 22:53:51 <mmp> SpeedEvil, raster: I guess using gstreamer and not directly some decoder will to the trick
Dec 03 22:53:52 <SpeedEvil> What's open?
Dec 03 22:53:53 <SpeedEvil> wav?
Dec 03 22:54:01 <mmp> SpeedEvil: OGG/Vorbis
Dec 03 22:54:04 <raster> SpeedEvil: ogg
Dec 03 22:54:19 <raster> mmp: as i siad
Dec 03 22:54:21 <raster> emotion builds
Dec 03 22:54:24 <raster> and is on there
Dec 03 22:54:29 <raster> i've never used it on the fr myself
Dec 03 22:54:39 <raster> tho emotion is horribly broken in many ways atm and needs love
Dec 03 22:54:58 <raster> like position updates are wrong
Dec 03 22:55:01 <raster> seeking has issues
Dec 03 22:55:02 <raster> etc.
Dec 03 22:55:04 <lindi-> sebbs: yeah
Dec 03 22:55:05 <mmp> hmm, we'll see... so far I don't have even the concept working fully to my needs... :)
Dec 03 22:55:09 <raster> at least the xine back end on desktop
Dec 03 22:55:10 <lindi-> sebbs: for the UI
Dec 03 22:55:22 <sebbs> but can people all you up without the UI running?
Dec 03 22:55:23 <lindi-> sebbs: if you want it's quite easy to write text-only UI
Dec 03 22:55:31 <sebbs> yes i would think it is
Dec 03 22:55:37 <SpeedEvil> lynx!
Dec 03 22:55:53 <sebbs> it should be a hours worth of python meddling
Dec 03 22:56:00 <mmp> raster: btw, one final question -- I noticed  that scrolling fps in enlightenment is much lower than the scroll speed I was able to get with gtk scrolling widget...
Dec 03 22:56:20 <mmp> it was like 3 fps vs. >10
Dec 03 22:56:51 <mmp> I know enlightenment draws lots of fancy things like gradients...
Dec 03 22:57:04 <mmp> but it's still quite slow I guess...
Dec 03 22:58:43 <flexd> Is it just me or is illume still slow? (I run the FDOM or whatever its called now)
Dec 03 22:59:50 <raster> mmp: scrolling == redraw
Dec 03 22:59:57 <raster> you wont get hardware acceleration
Dec 03 23:00:29 <mmp> raster: yes, but gtk scrolling widget does the same... and does it a bit faster, though; that's the thing which makes me wonder
Dec 03 23:00:36 <raster> because scrolling is "move a whole bunch of objects from A to B
Dec 03 23:00:49 <raster> no
Dec 03 23:00:55 <raster> in gtk scrolling is done with a child-window
Dec 03 23:00:57 <raster> in a parent
Dec 03 23:01:02 <raster> and moving the child
Dec 03 23:01:07 <raster> redrawing the newly exposed regions only
Dec 03 23:01:16 <raster> OR its an xcopyarea
Dec 03 23:01:22 <raster> and redraw new bits
Dec 03 23:01:24 <mmp> aha, that explains few things, like artefacts I see on the screen...
Dec 03 23:01:32 <raster> gtk's redraw likely is goign to be faster as it draws nigh-nothing
Dec 03 23:01:41 <raster> thats why efl wont see artifacts
Dec 03 23:01:49 <sebbs> is openmoko 3daccelerated?
Dec 03 23:01:52 <raster> because everything is redrawn
Dec 03 23:01:59 <raster> on the cpu and pumped to the display
Dec 03 23:02:10 <raster> gtk will be reliant on the blitting in x being "right"
Dec 03 23:02:21 <mmp> raster: and any way of speeding it a bit up?
Dec 03 23:02:26 <mmp> :-)
Dec 03 23:02:32 <raster> as such efl's draw speed scales with # of pixels to draw
Dec 03 23:02:38 <raster> mmp: speeding up the redraw
Dec 03 23:02:45 <raster> as such freerunenr is awful
Dec 03 23:02:49 <mmp> well... yes
Dec 03 23:02:52 <raster> efl runs like a dream on my treo650
Dec 03 23:03:12 <mmp> raster: but that one has only QVGA screen, iirc
Dec 03 23:03:14 <raster> but thats because the framebuffer doesnt live at the other end of a 1mm wide staw
Dec 03 23:03:14 <mmp> ;)
Dec 03 23:03:18 <raster> straw
Dec 03 23:03:22 <raster> 320x320
Dec 03 23:03:25 <raster> and only 312mhz
Dec 03 23:04:00 <mmp> yes, that was quite unfortunate decision :-/
Dec 03 23:04:07 <mmp> (slow bus to glamo)
Dec 03 23:04:40 <SpeedEvil> not a decision on the bus speed - on the glamo
Dec 03 23:04:50 <SpeedEvil> it maxes out at that
Dec 03 23:05:05 <raster> no one knew it'd be that slow
Dec 03 23:05:09 <raster> until u started to play with it
Dec 03 23:05:28 <mmp> yes...
Dec 03 23:05:29 <SpeedEvil> raster: that'd be due to the enormous detail in the 2 page datasheet :)
Dec 03 23:05:45 <raster> SpeedEvil:  hehehe
Dec 03 23:06:09 <raster> mmp: as such when you scroll i estimate you lose about 30-50% of your cpu just into writing to the gtlamo
Dec 03 23:06:10 <mmp> raster: btw, any way to draw at least few things on the chip?
Dec 03 23:06:18 <raster> compared to if you used the built-in framebuffer of the 2442
Dec 03 23:06:23 <raster> whihc would be a memcpy to write
Dec 03 23:06:28 <mmp> (such as blitting itself...)
Dec 03 23:06:33 <raster> mmp: u can use the xrender evas engine
Dec 03 23:06:39 <raster> but that also will be entirely unaccelerated
Dec 03 23:06:44 <raster> evas has a gl engine
Dec 03 23:06:47 <raster> again - useless on the glamo
Dec 03 23:06:56 <raster> i'd have to do a gl-es variant
Dec 03 23:07:05 <raster> but glamo is uselsss for it anyeway as the 3d is so limited
Dec 03 23:07:18 <raster> its useful for nothnig more than low-res toy-games/demos
Dec 03 23:07:23 <mmp> raster: I heard something about the gl having only 512x512 maximal size of overlay...
Dec 03 23:07:30 <raster> 511x511
Dec 03 23:07:37 <raster> but since the screen is vga
Dec 03 23:07:40 <raster> ie 640x480
Dec 03 23:07:44 <raster> u'd have to drop to qvga
Dec 03 23:07:50 <raster> 240x320
Dec 03 23:07:52 <raster> for gl
Dec 03 23:08:06 <mmp> hmm, and any way to render needed things off-screen and just bitblt them?
Dec 03 23:08:07 <raster> (or have some truly HORRID scaling artifacts)
Dec 03 23:08:46 <raster> and max texture size is 256x256
Dec 03 23:08:54 <raster> as such evas's gl engine uses 1 texture per pixmap
Dec 03 23:09:03 <raster> and 256 limit would break > 50% of images
Dec 03 23:09:21 <raster> turning an image into a texture mesh (array of quads with textures) is also tricky, painful and the results are awful
Dec 03 23:09:25 <raster> i have done it before
Dec 03 23:09:26 * mmp slowly gives up fast graphics on neo...
Dec 03 23:09:29 <raster> and refuse to do it again
Dec 03 23:09:35 <raster> you have to fight with gl
Dec 03 23:09:45 <raster> each gl implementation interprets co-ordinates slightly differently
Dec 03 23:09:53 <raster> and u'll need real hardware from every vendor to even try it
Dec 03 23:10:03 <raster> as some will round down
Dec 03 23:10:04 <raster> some round up
Dec 03 23:10:19 <raster> example: i can draw a 500x500 image on a radeo
Dec 03 23:10:24 <raster> and 500x500 on an nvidia card
Dec 03 23:10:27 <mmp> hmm, and my last idea -- if there is any way to use portions of advanced things from opengl engine outside the overlay (as alpha blit, etc...)
Dec 03 23:10:31 <raster> both textures are 500x500
Dec 03 23:10:37 <raster> you draw a 500x500 "pixel" quad
Dec 03 23:10:54 <raster> (you use gl's integer coords and set up a viewport transform so coords map 1:1 to pixels)
Dec 03 23:11:01 <raster> and.. the images are different
Dec 03 23:11:04 <sebbs> is coding on the openmoko really acceptable?
Dec 03 23:11:06 <raster> the nvidia one is pixle-perfect
Dec 03 23:11:11 <raster> radeon is "blurry"
Dec 03 23:11:19 <raster> as it tries to do interpolated scaling
Dec 03 23:11:30 <raster> now throw an intel gfx chip in
Dec 03 23:11:34 <raster> and a unichrome (via)
Dec 03 23:11:37 <raster> and god knows what else
Dec 03 23:11:46 <raster> you need to play games like use floating point co-ords
Dec 03 23:11:54 <raster> and on some dcards use 500.5x500.5
Dec 03 23:12:00 <raster> (ie half a pixel bigfger or off)
Dec 03 23:12:02 <raster> bigger
Dec 03 23:12:10 <raster> and per card/gl lib and even variant of gl lib
Dec 03 23:12:18 <sebbs> meow
Dec 03 23:12:24 <raster> (eg  the mesa open radeon drivers behaved differently to ati's closed ones)
Dec 03 23:12:36 <raster> gl for 2d is a minefield of pain
Dec 03 23:12:49 <raster> now throw in a texture mesh which tries to get scalign and interpolation right
Dec 03 23:12:57 <raster> and u have major pain - done it before and gave up.
Dec 03 23:13:14 <mmp> yuck :-/
Dec 03 23:13:26 <sebbs> intersting
Dec 03 23:13:35 <sebbs> i have a intel card
Dec 03 23:13:39 <sebbs> they suck
Dec 03 23:13:50 <sebbs> rather the drivers suck
Dec 03 23:14:00 <sebbs> atleast for my card
Dec 03 23:14:14 <raster> mmp: so as such - i gave up on glamo - its too limited for anything useful. once you read the specs and details its limits become apparent
Dec 03 23:14:18 <raster> then throw into the mix
Dec 03 23:14:29 <raster> "no other device on theplanet uses this chip - and tis a dead chip never to be used again"
Dec 03 23:14:38 <raster> and the effort to cater for it is not worth it.
Dec 03 23:14:56 <raster> xrender could be partly accelerated on the glamo
Dec 03 23:15:01 <mmp> raster: well, there are few thousands of devices,which use it
Dec 03 23:15:08 <raster> but onyl to the point where its likely to equal software rendering
Dec 03 23:15:10 <raster> not beat it
Dec 03 23:15:15 <mmp> (but I agree with you basically)
Dec 03 23:15:18 <raster> as it can only accelerate a few bits of xrender
Dec 03 23:15:21 <raster> and even then with limits
Dec 03 23:15:28 <raster> glamo's max "blit" size is 640x640
Dec 03 23:15:37 <raster> now imagine u are looking at a 120x768 photo
Dec 03 23:15:42 <raster> and want it scaled down to fit on screen
Dec 03 23:15:49 <raster> the glamo literally cannto do that in hardware
Dec 03 23:15:57 <raster> so either u need to again break it up into 640x640 lots
Dec 03 23:16:05 <raster> and handle scaling with this too
Dec 03 23:16:09 <raster> or do it all in software
Dec 03 23:16:15 <raster> it cant render TO an ARGB32 surface
Dec 03 23:16:19 <raster> destination is ALWAYS 16bpp
Dec 03 23:16:36 <raster> whihc kind of make using a offscreen 32bpp buffer for decent quality a no-no
Dec 03 23:16:41 <raster> you can't do intermediate buffers with alpha
Dec 03 23:16:47 <raster> ie desitnation never has alpha channel
Dec 03 23:16:55 <raster> so u cant compose an intermediate buffer in hw
Dec 03 23:17:15 <raster> so u fall back to software goign across the glamo bus doing pixel fetch/writes per pixel with software fallbacks
Dec 03 23:17:35 <raster> in the ned when u add up the limitations u'll spendd a lot of effort on a driver
Dec 03 23:17:43 <mmp> ok... fair enough... I didn't expect it's _that much_ limited
Dec 03 23:17:45 <raster> and succeed with pretty much 0% speedup :)
Dec 03 23:17:48 <raster> thats my guess
Dec 03 23:17:56 <mmp> well, at least CPU relief...
Dec 03 23:17:57 <raster> and i've been doing the graphics game for a long time
Dec 03 23:18:08 <raster> hmm
Dec 03 23:18:13 <raster> i am not sure u'll get reliefe
Dec 03 23:18:26 <raster> as u'll be spedning a lot of cycles now writing pixel sources to the glamo
Dec 03 23:18:28 <raster> writign commands
Dec 03 23:18:35 <raster> spinning on "Wait for pipeline to clear"
Dec 03 23:18:41 <mmp> spinning?
Dec 03 23:18:42 <raster> as well
Dec 03 23:18:51 <mmp> glamo doesn't have irq assigned?
Dec 03 23:18:54 <freqmod_qu> raster: if i want two keyboards at the edges of the screen in illume do i have to hack illume or is it enough to look at edje "code"?
Dec 03 23:18:56 <raster> well as such there is no support for interrupts
Dec 03 23:19:04 <mmp> my god...
Dec 03 23:19:04 <sebbs> holyshit
Dec 03 23:19:07 <raster> the hw does have one
Dec 03 23:19:08 <sebbs> i can run PD on this
Dec 03 23:19:15 <raster> but gettign that interrupt to userspace is a big problem
Dec 03 23:19:27 <raster> in more recent kernels it can be done
Dec 03 23:19:52 <hozer> oh boy.. cause you have to track down which process to deliver it to?
Dec 03 23:19:59 <raster> anyway
Dec 03 23:20:04 <raster> yes - more can be done
Dec 03 23:20:22 <raster> the end result i fear will be almost indistinguishable from what you see now
Dec 03 23:20:33 <raster> u'd have been faster with zero acceleration
Dec 03 23:20:36 <SpeedEvil> 8fps, not 6
Dec 03 23:20:52 <raster> SpeedEvil:  yes - or somethnig really "uselesS"
Dec 03 23:20:56 <sebbs> hmm are there any realtime kernels around for openmoko?
Dec 03 23:21:05 <raster> ie went from slow , to slightly less slow
Dec 03 23:21:09 <SpeedEvil> raster: yeah - all that effort for 6.4fps, ...
Dec 03 23:21:10 <sebbs> guess i could do it myself
Dec 03 23:21:10 <raster> not from slow to "smooth"
Dec 03 23:21:19 <raster> so for people with unlimited spare time
Dec 03 23:21:21 <raster> go for it
Dec 03 23:21:31 <raster> your time is not "better spent elsewhere"
Dec 03 23:21:37 <raster> as u have limitless amoutns of it
Dec 03 23:21:51 <mmp> raster: ok, this is probably no-go; any idea whether glamo supports at least DMA from non-glamo memory?
Dec 03 23:21:58 <raster> nup
Dec 03 23:21:59 <Wonka> the amount of spare time a person can have is limited by time already.
Dec 03 23:22:02 <raster> glamo has no dma at all
Dec 03 23:22:06 <SpeedEvil> raster: http://xkcd.com/505/
Dec 03 23:22:09 <raster> u'd need to drive dma from the soc
Dec 03 23:22:17 <raster> and that was one of the first things we tried
Dec 03 23:22:27 <raster> once i found how hellishly slow the glamo bus was
Dec 03 23:22:28 <mmp> well, that's almost as bad as copying data directl
Dec 03 23:22:29 <mmp> y
Dec 03 23:22:36 <raster> i went "fuck. can we at least offload copying to video ram to dma?"
Dec 03 23:22:40 <raster> result - nada
Dec 03 23:22:49 <raster> it was 1/5 the speerd of cpu copies.. at BEST
Dec 03 23:22:56 <mmp> uhm?
Dec 03 23:22:58 <raster> and signficantly slower overall
Dec 03 23:23:00 <mmp> that's a bit weird
Dec 03 23:23:00 <raster> yes
Dec 03 23:23:08 <raster> 2442 suppreots dma memory -> memory
Dec 03 23:23:10 <mmp> DMA engine should run on full speed...
Dec 03 23:23:12 <raster> as glamo is a memory mapped device
Dec 03 23:23:22 <raster> u use the mem -> mem dma engine
Dec 03 23:23:28 <raster> but its slower than a cpu copy
Dec 03 23:23:30 <raster> much
Dec 03 23:23:36 <mmp> that's weird...
Dec 03 23:23:38 <raster> also dma doesnt understand mmu
Dec 03 23:23:38 <Wonka> FAIL
Dec 03 23:23:51 <sebbs> how is the gps locktime on the openmoko?
Dec 03 23:23:58 <raster> so u need to literally teach it how to work around memory pages and fragments manually
Dec 03 23:24:20 <raster> u have overhead of needing a dma queue
Dec 03 23:24:24 <raster> and dma engine setup
Dec 03 23:24:28 <Wonka> my spare time for yesterday is already overdrawn by half an our (it's 0
Dec 03 23:24:32 <Wonka> :24 here)
Dec 03 23:24:33 <sebbs> neofree runner
Dec 03 23:24:33 <mmp> yes, it's really useful only in few cases (uploading huge linear data to glamo)
Dec 03 23:24:37 <raster> some small pages are faster to blindly copy with a cpu than use dma as setup is slower than the copy
Dec 03 23:24:38 <raster> ...
Dec 03 23:24:46 <Wonka> so i'll go to bed now...
Dec 03 23:24:47 <raster> as such it was tried
Dec 03 23:24:48 <raster> and failed
Dec 03 23:24:55 <raster> 3 or so weeks were sunk into that experiment
Dec 03 23:25:07 <raster> anyway
Dec 03 23:25:24 <raster> i've read the glamo programming docs
Dec 03 23:25:26 * mmp wonders why smedia doesn't at least open the docs then, if it's really dead chip
Dec 03 23:25:27 <raster> from beginnign to end
Dec 03 23:25:27 * SpeedEvil wonders what raster is working on ATM.
Dec 03 23:25:29 <raster> a few times
Dec 03 23:25:41 <raster> when u read the "featurelist" of the glamo
Dec 03 23:25:46 <hozer> geez. 
Dec 03 23:25:48 <raster> which is what most "users" and people out there have seen
Dec 03 23:25:50 <raster> you get excited
Dec 03 23:25:55 <raster> and think this glamo is the best thing
Dec 03 23:25:56 <raster> i did
Dec 03 23:25:58 <hozer> HAH
Dec 03 23:26:00 <raster> when i first saw it
Dec 03 23:26:06 <hozer> then you read the "restrictions" ?
Dec 03 23:26:10 <raster> i went "cool. this thing wil be awesome"
Dec 03 23:26:14 <raster> then.. you read the details
Dec 03 23:26:28 <raster> all the "can do this.. but only win this situation and within these limits"
Dec 03 23:26:35 <raster> and soon you being to do "uh oh"
Dec 03 23:26:38 <hozer> sounds like the Galileo bridge chip for the PPC7450 
Dec 03 23:26:47 <raster> and eventually you go "uhhmm... gah! so much work. so little gain!"
Dec 03 23:26:52 <hozer> It supported SMP and cache coherency.. with a bunch of "restrictions"
Dec 03 23:27:18 <raster> and you instantly think 'how about we have no glamo.. and just use existing software rendeirng which is... 0 work. and probably at least as fast and useful" :)
Dec 03 23:27:29 <sebbs> when is GTA03 to be released?
Dec 03 23:27:31 <raster> hozer:  hehehehhee
Dec 03 23:27:36 <sebbs> is there a roadmap around?
Dec 03 23:27:36 <hozer> so, sounds like we need an openmoko phone that has a decent CPU and an FPGA we can program a decent graphics engine on ourselves
Dec 03 23:27:46 <raster> hozer:  u do NOT want an fpga
Dec 03 23:27:47 <SpeedEvil> sebbs: a _long_ time sounds like
Dec 03 23:27:53 <hozer> awwww, why not ;)
Dec 03 23:27:54 <mmp> raster: 03 will have internal framebuffer and sort-of 2d accel, right?
Dec 03 23:27:55 <SpeedEvil> sebbs: likely to be >>6 months
Dec 03 23:28:00 <raster> but... you possibly want this new chip i have under my nose
Dec 03 23:28:18 <sebbs> SpeedEvil: what will that phone have?
Dec 03 23:28:22 <sebbs> perhaps i should wait then
Dec 03 23:28:24 <raster> the first gen of it in raw compute with a first gen (not optimised) compiler can equal the glamo in raw power
Dec 03 23:28:26 <SpeedEvil> sebbs: the GTA03 page on the wiki says that the SoC has changed within the last month.
Dec 03 23:28:28 <raster> but comes with no "limits"
Dec 03 23:28:36 <raster> ie limits are purely software
Dec 03 23:28:37 <sebbs> what is SoC?
Dec 03 23:28:43 <raster> and you get to write it
Dec 03 23:28:50 <SpeedEvil> sebbs: I don't think there is a development board that looks like a phone. CPU
Dec 03 23:28:51 <raster> sebbs:  system on chip
Dec 03 23:28:51 <sebbs> why does the hardware come in such big updates and not chips we could change?
Dec 03 23:28:51 <hozer> oooooh nifty
Dec 03 23:28:52 <sebbs> like modules
Dec 03 23:28:58 <Kensan> raster: awww, you just love to tease ;)
Dec 03 23:29:00 <SpeedEvil> sebbs: modules are shit
Dec 03 23:29:04 <hozer> HAH
Dec 03 23:29:05 <SpeedEvil> sebbs: they don't really work.
Dec 03 23:29:09 <raster> mmp: no idea abour 03 - i gave up folloing that moving target
Dec 03 23:29:10 <hozer> sebbs: board layout issues
Dec 03 23:29:11 <SpeedEvil> sebbs: compare a PC with a laptop
Dec 03 23:29:16 <hozer> the hardest part is the signal integrity
Dec 03 23:29:20 <sebbs> wel completly new hardware is not a good solution
Dec 03 23:29:24 <sebbs> what will you do with your old stuff
Dec 03 23:29:28 <SpeedEvil> sebbs: Much of the reason the PC is smaller is because it omits all of those connectors.
Dec 03 23:29:33 <SpeedEvil> sebbs: laptop
Dec 03 23:29:41 <sebbs> now you have to update all the time and i mean the phone is 370 euros its alot
Dec 03 23:29:43 <SpeedEvil> sebbs: For a module, you need:
Dec 03 23:30:08 <hozer> sebbs: FIC makes hardware, remember ;)
Dec 03 23:30:18 <raster> devices like phones are small
Dec 03 23:30:21 <raster> chyeap and disposable
Dec 03 23:30:23 <sebbs> SpeedEvil: it would be better for out economy and waste+production wise
Dec 03 23:30:28 <raster> u dont design then  to be pluggable/expandable
Dec 03 23:30:31 <raster> u cut costs
Dec 03 23:30:33 <raster> and pwoer
Dec 03 23:30:38 <SpeedEvil> sebbs: A case to hold the module. A connector on the module. Static protection on the module. Static protection on the phone. Power conditioning on the module, an expensive connector on the module, a complex case on the phone to secure and hold these modules, ...
Dec 03 23:30:38 <hozer> actually
Dec 03 23:30:38 <raster> but putting it all on a small board
Dec 03 23:30:42 <hozer> pluggable would take more power
Dec 03 23:30:46 <SpeedEvil> sebbs: it's really not
Dec 03 23:30:54 <SpeedEvil> sebbs: Sure, you can get a modular phone.
Dec 03 23:30:55 <mmp> raster: iirc S3C6410, ARM11 + NEON instruction set (so it will be quite fast even with software rendering I guess)
Dec 03 23:30:57 <hozer> and if you throw away your hardware every year and get something more power efficient
Dec 03 23:30:59 <raster> soldered on and hopefulyl merge as much as u can into as few chips as u can to avoid interconnect power and performance leakage
Dec 03 23:31:10 <hozer> that's an environmental benefit
Dec 03 23:31:21 <sebbs> how often will there be new hardware releases?
Dec 03 23:31:22 <SpeedEvil> sebbs: for 1.5 times the purchase price, 0.25*the reliability, 1.5* the weight, 1.5* the size.
Dec 03 23:31:49 <hozer> SpeedEvil: and 2* the power consumption to drive longer traces
Dec 03 23:31:51 <lindi-> sebbs: you don't necessarily have to buy the new phone every time a new release is made :)
Dec 03 23:32:10 <sebbs> lindi-: sure, but you will always want to
Dec 03 23:32:12 * hozer will buy sebbs's old phone when he has to jump on the upgrade treadmill
Dec 03 23:32:15 <raster> mmp:  that'd be very much faster - if its the 6410 - even without 3d, (whihc as such i know for sure is still not ready as i have had my hands on some 6410 hw and seen the state of the drivers direct from samsung - it's got lots of issues still)... but software alone will be 3-4x the speed of the 2442 on the gta02
Dec 03 23:32:19 <lindi-> sebbs: really?
Dec 03 23:32:23 <sebbs> atleast i would, out of curiosity
Dec 03 23:32:40 <sebbs> thats why i would like it modular
Dec 03 23:32:44 <hozer> heh
Dec 03 23:32:45 <lindi-> sebbs: i used two 9110 communicators for 8 years or so :)
Dec 03 23:32:50 <sebbs> so you always had the main part of it, and changed everythign else
Dec 03 23:32:55 <pieterc> hm... if i flash the tracking kernel of android, it gives bad CRC or something at verifying checksum
Dec 03 23:32:57 <mmp> raster: not sure, I've seen just some commits for gta03 mentioning that SoC
Dec 03 23:32:59 <pieterc> what should i do?
Dec 03 23:33:01 <lindi-> sebbs: (Bought the second when the first started to fail)
Dec 03 23:33:15 <sebbs> i used a pda for like 6 years or so
Dec 03 23:33:16 <pieterc> *bad data crc
Dec 03 23:33:20 <sebbs> the same one
Dec 03 23:33:20 <lindi-> sebbs: with usb support you can extend
Dec 03 23:33:53 <hozer> sebbs: There's this modular thing called a network ;)
Dec 03 23:33:54 <sebbs> i wonder if this phone is what i really need, all i really want is a phone that works as a phone and lets me run debian on it
Dec 03 23:34:12 <sebbs> hozer: that is true
Dec 03 23:34:31 <mmp> raster, SpeedEvil : I'll have to go offline now; it's already morning here (GMT+1); thank you both a lot and good night :)
Dec 03 23:34:59 <sebbs> hozer: when we get "eternal" batterys, you will be able to walk outside junkyards with wifi radars and look for devices
Dec 03 23:35:24 <hozer> sebbs: the freerunner is pretty close to an ideal phone, just because I can load my own kernel build on it with the manufacturers blessing
Dec 03 23:35:35 <hozer> well
Dec 03 23:35:41 <raster> mmp:  nite!
Dec 03 23:35:46 <hozer> maybe not eternal batteries.. solar panels ;)
Dec 03 23:36:03 * hozer goes in search of a working Bluetooth dongle
Dec 03 23:36:13 <igor321> have openmoko considered the TI soc?
Dec 03 23:36:14 <sebbs> hozer: i see your point, that is what is appealing with it
Dec 03 23:36:19 <igor321> the one in beagleboard?
Dec 03 23:36:34 <raster> SpeedEvil: HAHAHAHAHAH
Dec 03 23:36:39 <mmp> hozer: zero point energy modules ;)
Dec 03 23:36:46 <SpeedEvil> sebbs: connectors make your reliability go to shit, unless you use really expensive ones.
Dec 03 23:36:47 <SpeedEvil> sebbs: and the number of cheap large pin count user-friendly small, easy to mount connectors can be counted on the fingers of one nose.
Dec 03 23:36:47 <SpeedEvil> sebbs: consider also a modular modem
Dec 03 23:36:52 <SpeedEvil> sebbs: your existing GSM module is 35*35*2mm, neglecting connectors, how large do you make the module?
Dec 03 23:36:56 <SpeedEvil> sebbs: if you chose wrong, you either get a larger phone than needed, or a slot that won't fit a 3G module.
Dec 03 23:36:59 * SpeedEvil wishes modular was easy.
Dec 03 23:37:02 <sebbs> SpeedEvil: china makes good cheap ones
Dec 03 23:37:33 <raster> 3g ones?
Dec 03 23:37:33 <sebbs> GSM size i did not know about, but same would be true for the GPS module
Dec 03 23:38:20 <raster> these moduels dont have "standard sizes"
Dec 03 23:38:23 <raster> they come in anything
Dec 03 23:38:32 <raster> the whole point of embedded is you EMBED
Dec 03 23:38:42 <SpeedEvil> sebbs: you're missing the point
Dec 03 23:38:44 <raster> you dont make some thin u plug together
Dec 03 23:38:48 <SpeedEvil> exactly.
Dec 03 23:38:53 <raster> you cut costs, power and space by embeded
Dec 03 23:38:58 <raster> embedded
Dec 03 23:39:00 <raster> err embedding
Dec 03 23:39:11 <raster> the moment u put connectors and "standarrdise" thnigs
Dec 03 23:39:17 <raster> you waste space - as SpeedEvil said
Dec 03 23:39:26 <raster> or u create a point of error ( a conenctor)
Dec 03 23:39:30 <SpeedEvil> sebbs: you plan for a 35*35mm*2 module, allow for a 40*40*3mm one, and you're kind of screwed when a nice cheap module arrives that is 41mm*30mm*2mm
Dec 03 23:39:49 <sebbs> SpeedEvil: but that is a design issue
Dec 03 23:40:03 <raster> or you waste power (transferrign electrons down a run on a cirbuit board to another soldered on chip is much less than goinf via a connector as you have less resistance)
Dec 03 23:40:03 <SpeedEvil> sebbs: err - yes
Dec 03 23:40:12 <SpeedEvil> sebbs: it's inherent to a modular phone
Dec 03 23:40:14 <sebbs> SpeedEvil: those are not very hard to solve, you just TRISS it
Dec 03 23:40:16 <raster> and u add cost to testing, error/breakage handlign
Dec 03 23:40:19 <raster> warranty handling
Dec 03 23:40:20 * SpeedEvil stabs sebbs 
Dec 03 23:40:28 <sebbs> eh
Dec 03 23:40:34 <raster> not to mention make softwar ecosts higher as u now have to handle 1 of N possible things to be plugged in
Dec 03 23:40:37 <raster> instead of just 1
Dec 03 23:40:44 <SpeedEvil> sebbs: if you don't know of the size of the 3G module at the time of the release of your modular phone, how do you plan this?
Dec 03 23:40:51 <raster> if you can you avoid even multiple chips on the same board
Dec 03 23:40:56 <raster> u get chips that do "all in one"
Dec 03 23:41:00 <raster> to save more runs and power loss
Dec 03 23:41:23 <SpeedEvil> PCs work - largely - as the slots are _huge_.
Dec 03 23:41:38 <SpeedEvil> You're not constrained on space.
Dec 03 23:41:42 <sebbs> SpeedEvil: well i have not acctually thought about going about and creating such a phone. more or less played with the idea due to the frustration that comes from chaning hardware all the time
Dec 03 23:41:43 <SpeedEvil> Or power.
Dec 03 23:42:08 <SpeedEvil> sebbs: modular is a nice aspiration.
Dec 03 23:42:13 <SpeedEvil> sebbs: damn hard to realise.
Dec 03 23:42:29 <sebbs> if i was to go deep into this, perhaps i would be able to give you more exact information
Dec 03 23:42:48 <sebbs> SpeedEvil: ofcourse, that is why it has never been done before (well)
Dec 03 23:43:10 <SpeedEvil> You can in principle do better, if you design all the stuff to go into the modules yourself.
Dec 03 23:43:17 <SpeedEvil> But, and it's a huge but.
Dec 03 23:43:29 <sebbs> no dude, you create a market segment out of it
Dec 03 23:43:36 <SpeedEvil> The engineering to make a working 3G module may be almost as hard as a phone.
Dec 03 23:43:39 <sebbs> make hardware something the people develop
Dec 03 23:43:45 <SpeedEvil> hahahahahha
Dec 03 23:43:55 <SpeedEvil> Hardware is NOT SOFTWARE.
Dec 03 23:43:55 <sebbs> given a standard they follow
Dec 03 23:44:00 <sebbs> well not yet
Dec 03 23:44:05 <sebbs> but it is well on its way
Dec 03 23:44:13 <SpeedEvil> You have a slot for a module.
Dec 03 23:44:16 <ronny> most people are barely able to handle making software
Dec 03 23:44:29 <SpeedEvil> Does it have USB only, or does it need access to the memory bus of the CPU.
Dec 03 23:44:30 <ronny> how do you see those even remotely close to making hardware
Dec 03 23:44:33 <sebbs> well i am not speaking about "most people"
Dec 03 23:44:34 <SpeedEvil> Does it have an antenna, ...
Dec 03 23:44:37 <sebbs> most people are complete idiots
Dec 03 23:44:42 <SpeedEvil> sebbs: it's not one person
Dec 03 23:44:47 <sebbs> evidence #1 earth
Dec 03 23:45:04 <sebbs> i mean further along
Dec 03 23:45:08 <SpeedEvil> sebbs: to design a working 3G plug-in-module from chips will cost well upwards of $20K
Dec 03 23:45:23 <SpeedEvil> sebbs: that's assuming you've got the testgear and the knowledge just sitting there.
Dec 03 23:45:25 <sebbs> SpeedEvil: yes cost is a issue
Dec 03 23:45:34 <SpeedEvil> sebbs: and the chipmakers are open with specs, which they are not.
Dec 03 23:45:38 <sebbs> and not making mistakes
Dec 03 23:45:45 <sebbs> eveyr mistake would be quite expensive
Dec 03 23:45:54 <sebbs> so you would have to have good software for it
Dec 03 23:46:05 <SpeedEvil> The software isn't the point.
Dec 03 23:46:13 <sebbs> software to deveop hardware
Dec 03 23:46:17 <SpeedEvil> The software isn't the point.
Dec 03 23:46:32 <SpeedEvil> Hardware is fundamentally different to software.
Dec 03 23:46:33 <sebbs> depends on who is making the point
Dec 03 23:46:42 <sebbs> ofcourse it is
Dec 03 23:46:50 <SpeedEvil> With software, you can have a little 10 line function that interacts with nothing else.
Dec 03 23:46:55 <SpeedEvil> You can prove this.
Dec 03 23:47:24 <SpeedEvil> Anyone familiar with the language, that can read the functions comments can tinker with it given 5 minutes reading.
Dec 03 23:47:35 <sebbs> so?
Dec 03 23:47:37 <SpeedEvil> In many cases, hardware just isn't like this.
Dec 03 23:47:42 <sebbs> electronics are not very different
Dec 03 23:47:53 <sebbs> its all about input and outputs
Dec 03 23:48:00 <SpeedEvil> It interacts in multiple ways, thermal, magnetic, accoustic, electrochemical, ...
Dec 03 23:48:08 <sebbs> yes that is true
Dec 03 23:48:19 <sebbs> ok i see your point
Dec 03 23:48:35 <sebbs> but that is where unittests come in
Dec 03 23:48:54 <SpeedEvil> Again, you miss the point.
Dec 03 23:48:58 <sebbs> and world models
Dec 03 23:49:01 <CVirus> lol
Dec 03 23:49:20 <SpeedEvil> unit tests can't be done reliably on isolated parts of the system, as they are not in real life isolated.
Dec 03 23:49:30 <sebbs> define isolated
Dec 03 23:49:36 <CVirus> modular
Dec 03 23:49:39 <CVirus> ?
Dec 03 23:49:43 <SpeedEvil> For example.
Dec 03 23:50:04 <SpeedEvil> The freerunner - it has run into a problem where the clock of the SD card is somehow getting into the GPS.
Dec 03 23:50:05 <sebbs> so you mean software would be too abstract for testing?
Dec 03 23:50:05 <ronny> you can never ever test hardware without affecting it by the test-intruments
Dec 03 23:50:08 <SpeedEvil> And screing it.
Dec 03 23:50:50 <sebbs> clock
Dec 03 23:50:52 <SpeedEvil> sebbs: Imagine if with software, you make one perfectly reasonable and correct change in that 10 line function. And the system completely stops working.
Dec 03 23:51:00 <sebbs> getting in?
Dec 03 23:51:06 <SpeedEvil> sebbs: through the air 
Dec 03 23:51:43 <sebbs> but those things are not real problems, they are just due to lack of cordination/organization
Dec 03 23:52:04 <sebbs> like the one iwth the gps/sdcard
Dec 03 23:52:13 <SpeedEvil> sebbs: no, they aren't.
Dec 03 23:52:14 <ronny> unlike software parts - hardware parts can never be truely isolated
Dec 03 23:52:15 <sebbs> those issues are already known, just not applied by the designer
Dec 03 23:52:19 <SpeedEvil> sebbs: no, they aren't.
Dec 03 23:52:24 <sebbs> ?
Dec 03 23:52:25 <lollisoft> Hi, does anybody use remoko here ?
Dec 03 23:52:35 <sebbs> SpeedEvil: its physics
Dec 03 23:52:38 <SpeedEvil> sebbs: the GPS is not documented for sensitivity at that frequency, it just happens.
Dec 03 23:52:44 <sebbs> oh
Dec 03 23:52:58 <sebbs> well lack of documentation is exatcly that
Dec 03 23:53:05 <sebbs> "lack of cordination/organization"
Dec 03 23:53:10 <SpeedEvil> sebbs: documentations on hardware parts are never, and can never be complete.
Dec 03 23:53:18 <sebbs> define complete
Dec 03 23:53:29 <SpeedEvil> sebbs: accurate in all circumstances. 
Dec 03 23:53:43 <SpeedEvil> sebbs: that's even assuming there are not actual errors in the documents.
Dec 03 23:53:44 <sebbs> well nothing is "accurate in all cirumstances"
Dec 03 23:53:51 <sebbs> but if you create models for every known one
Dec 03 23:53:57 <SpeedEvil> sebbs: you can't.
Dec 03 23:54:00 <ronny> sebbs: you cannot blindly apply knowdegde from software testing to hardware hardware testing
Dec 03 23:54:16 <SpeedEvil> sebbs: as you cannot test hardware infinitely, because it all interacts.
Dec 03 23:54:19 <sebbs> give me a real world example
Dec 03 23:54:29 <SpeedEvil> sebbs: the GPS
Dec 03 23:54:36 <sebbs> ofcourse you cannot, but you could do it well enough
Dec 03 23:54:42 <sebbs> that was due to poor documentation
Dec 03 23:54:49 <SpeedEvil> sebbs: it was not documented to be sensitive to energy in the waveband emitted by the SD clock.
Dec 03 23:55:06 <lollisoft> Hi, did anyone notized my question ? 
Dec 03 23:55:22 <ronny> lollisoft: never heard of it
Dec 03 23:55:24 <SpeedEvil> sebbs: sorry, you're not getting it, I'm ignoring this topic now
Dec 03 23:55:41 <sebbs> i see your point though, you are just not seeing mine.
Dec 03 23:55:46 <sebbs> but i agree lets mute this
Dec 03 23:55:59 <SpeedEvil> sebbs: lastly to say - make a software package that reliably does this, and you can sell it for several billion.
Dec 03 23:56:10 <lollisoft> Ok, I have problems with remoko. I have asu 2008/9 and remoko ends with an error message. 
Dec 03 23:56:43 <lollisoft> Error: ValueError: event type '0' already registered.
Dec 03 23:57:04 <sebbs> SpeedEvil: interesting to speak with someone who has knowlage in the area, i shall read up on the topic for the future. thank you for the discussion
Dec 03 23:57:45 <ronny> we got a lecture at our uni called "mess und Testsysteme" its losely translated as "metasurement and testing systems"
Dec 03 23:58:31 <ronny> pretty much the first thing that was proved is - any reasonably complex hardware is never ever even remeotely complete testable
Dec 03 23:59:27 <ronny> and testing/metasuring will allways affect the tested hardware
Dec 04 00:14:03 <pieterc> N97 seems like 'hot stuf'
Dec 04 00:14:29 <pieterc> -checking hw specs-
Dec 04 00:16:55 <Weiss> r.e. Glamo 3D: a group of people signed up to sign the NDA and start on an OpenGL:ES driver
Dec 04 00:19:14 <raster> i hope they like the pain :)
Dec 04 00:19:52 <doc|home> they do own freerunners
Dec 04 00:19:53 <doc|home> :)
Dec 04 00:20:02 <Weiss> hehe, indeed
Dec 04 00:20:13 <raster> do good point
Dec 04 00:20:21 <raster> doc|home: good point :)
Dec 04 00:20:26 <raster> it is possible
Dec 04 00:20:32 <raster> it just imho wont be worth the effort
Dec 04 00:21:14 <raster> i';m all about results
Dec 04 00:21:26 <raster> how do u get good results and make sure your work doesnt go to waste
Dec 04 00:22:56 <Weiss> some other people are about taking on an interesting challenge and seeing what happens
Dec 04 00:23:13 <raster> sure
Dec 04 00:23:13 <raster> :)
Dec 04 00:23:47 <linuxxr> alrightythen
Dec 04 00:36:36 <slick666> Hello all
Dec 04 00:36:49 <slick666> Anyone active?
Dec 04 00:41:40 <jonkristian> yeah
Dec 04 00:44:36 <slick666> I'm interested in synchronization between openmoko and evolution 
Dec 04 00:44:58 <slick666> but I don't see too much online in terms of examples
Dec 04 00:45:14 <slick666> are there any groups working on this?
Dec 04 00:45:41 <jonkristian> you can import/export vcard format, i think it'll depend on what kind of os you use though
Dec 04 00:48:39 <slick666> well I'm looking to keep it simple and free
Dec 04 00:48:52 <slick666> Linux desktop and linux phone :)
Dec 04 00:49:30 <jonkristian> you can set up a cronjob or something to sync vcards
Dec 04 00:49:39 <jonkristian> there's also unison
Dec 04 00:49:54 <jonkristian> haven't really tested this yet though.
Dec 04 00:50:47 <sebbs> ok i will get a openmoko, but i think its better i wait for GTA03
Dec 04 00:50:48 <slick666> I see
Dec 04 00:50:57 <slick666> diddo
Dec 04 00:51:05 <sebbs> sucky to have to wait though
Dec 04 00:51:19 <slick666> I'm wait for GTA03 for better video
Dec 04 00:51:22 <jonkristian> slick666: did you read this? http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Import_Vcf_Contacts
Dec 04 00:51:39 <sebbs> wish there where more phones that allowed me to install linux on them
Dec 04 00:51:48 <raster> there are
Dec 04 00:51:49 <sebbs> slick666: define better video
Dec 04 00:51:56 <raster> treo650
Dec 04 00:52:00 <jonkristian> but not as open;)
Dec 04 00:52:05 <raster> a bunch of motorolas (older)
Dec 04 00:52:11 <raster> nopt as
Dec 04 00:52:13 <raster> but i will say
Dec 04 00:52:23 <slick666> brb guys
Dec 04 00:52:25 <raster> my treo650 actually works better :)
Dec 04 00:52:29 <sebbs> hmm 
Dec 04 00:52:34 <sebbs> i was thinking about a treo
Dec 04 00:52:36 <raster> it might have 25% less cpu and 1/4 the ram
Dec 04 00:52:40 <raster> but it is smoother
Dec 04 00:52:41 <sebbs> but can you install linux on it?
Dec 04 00:52:53 <sebbs> could you direct me to some docs on the matter
Dec 04 00:53:00 <raster> http://www.rasterman.com/files/the-gang-03.jpg
Dec 04 00:53:06 <sebbs> and can iinstall linux on other versions of it? like the 800 etc
Dec 04 00:53:16 <sebbs> cos the treo has qwerty and that is what i want, moko does not
Dec 04 00:53:21 <sebbs> i would get a moko to have fun with though
Dec 04 00:53:52 <raster> salmost everything on the treo650 works
Dec 04 00:53:57 <jonkristian> raster: that's wicked:)
Dec 04 00:54:03 <raster> suspend/resume is partly done
Dec 04 00:54:15 <raster> and the gsm modem works - there is the serial device and u can talk at commands
Dec 04 00:54:17 <sebbs> raster: wow cool
Dec 04 00:54:19 <raster> people have made calls
Dec 04 00:54:39 <raster> the problem is with only 32m ram u really need to tighten your belt
Dec 04 00:54:40 <sebbs> raster: can you install debian on it?
Dec 04 00:54:43 <sebbs> oh
Dec 04 00:54:46 <raster> fuck no
Dec 04 00:54:46 <sebbs> 32M :( :(
Dec 04 00:54:49 <raster> yes
Dec 04 00:54:57 <raster> also flash not supported
Dec 04 00:55:01 <raster> so u need to boot off sd
Dec 04 00:55:03 <sebbs> 01:51 < sebbs> wish there where more phones that allowed me to install linux on them
Dec 04 00:55:11 <raster> but palmos is a fantastic bootloader
Dec 04 00:55:17 <raster> almsot as fast as u-boot
Dec 04 00:55:19 <raster> :)
Dec 04 00:55:20 <sebbs> ah so you run palm+debian
Dec 04 00:55:27 <sebbs> and can boot between
Dec 04 00:55:41 <raster> i challenge u to have a debian boot work in 32m ram
Dec 04 00:55:43 <raster> with no swap
Dec 04 00:55:49 <sebbs> it wont work
Dec 04 00:55:52 <sebbs> 128 is too little
Dec 04 00:55:56 <sebbs> 256 is ok
Dec 04 00:56:00 <raster> bingo
Dec 04 00:56:03 <raster> debian imho is just fat
Dec 04 00:56:05 <kd8ikt> alsa :(
Dec 04 00:56:07 <sebbs> yes
Dec 04 00:56:07 <raster> its a bloated wreck
Dec 04 00:56:12 <raster> when it comes to devices
Dec 04 00:56:12 <jonkristian> hm, too bad the onscreen keyboard for android doesn't work on text msg's:/
Dec 04 00:56:19 <sebbs> but i mean any distro with alot of apps
Dec 04 00:56:23 <raster> u have to do a LOT of work to lean it down
Dec 04 00:56:25 <jonkristian> raster: what distro do you use?
Dec 04 00:56:29 <raster> using OE is a much better move
Dec 04 00:56:31 <sebbs> debian is wha tyou install of it really, you need to change kernel though
Dec 04 00:56:31 <kd8ikt> yeah its hugely fat but miraciously has NOTHING
Dec 04 00:56:32 <raster> jonkristian: oe
Dec 04 00:56:42 <raster> http://www.rasterman.com/index.php?page=News
Dec 04 00:56:44 <raster> see the news
Dec 04 00:56:47 <raster> i have treo650 images
Dec 04 00:56:51 <sebbs> thanks
Dec 04 00:56:54 <raster> i built an updated one a week ago or so
Dec 04 00:57:09 <sebbs> what i basically want to do is to run mutt
Dec 04 00:57:11 <sebbs> thats it
Dec 04 00:57:22 <raster> hackndev.com has all the info on getticn linux on palm devices
Dec 04 00:57:43 <raster> sebbs:  mutt wont be much use unless u have a way to get data on/off the device
Dec 04 00:57:46 <raster> ie a "network"
Dec 04 00:57:47 <raster> :)
Dec 04 00:58:01 <sebbs> yes
Dec 04 00:58:04 <sebbs> i have a wireless network
Dec 04 00:58:13 <sebbs> oh treo has no wiki
Dec 04 00:58:14 <sebbs> wifi
Dec 04 00:58:17 <sebbs> hehe wiki
Dec 04 00:58:17 <raster> treo6750 doesnt have 802.11
Dec 04 00:58:21 <sebbs> ok
Dec 04 00:58:24 <raster> only bt and gprs
Dec 04 00:58:25 <sebbs> thats no good then
Dec 04 00:58:34 <sebbs> i need wifi
Dec 04 00:59:02 <sebbs> what i basically want is to run mutt+qwerty that would be ideal
Dec 04 00:59:28 <sebbs> guess i will have to wait for GTA03
Dec 04 00:59:36 <jonkristian> wow, get too late
Dec 04 00:59:50 <jonkristian> nighty
Dec 04 01:00:37 <raster> sebbs:  gta03 wont have a kbd
Dec 04 01:00:43 <sebbs> naw i know
Dec 04 01:00:44 <raster> so u'll be waiting even longer
Dec 04 01:00:53 <sebbs> but it will be ok enough
Dec 04 01:01:17 <sebbs> ive been looking for a qwerty+linux installable phone for a while
Dec 04 01:01:32 <sebbs> i want apt-get thats why i keep saying "debian" not linux
Dec 04 01:01:44 <sebbs> cos most "linux phones" run closed versions of distros
Dec 04 01:01:48 <sebbs> i dont like that i want root
Dec 04 01:02:01 <sebbs> g1 has a hack, but only for a specific firmware version
Dec 04 01:02:08 <sebbs> etc
Dec 04 01:05:50 <raster> oe has "apt-get"
Dec 04 01:05:52 <raster> its opkg
Dec 04 01:05:55 <raster> (or used to be ipkg)
Dec 04 01:05:56 <raster> same thing
Dec 04 01:06:01 <raster> works very much like apt+dpkg
Dec 04 01:06:05 <raster> just much smaller and leaner
Dec 04 01:08:08 <sebbs> oe?
Dec 04 01:08:27 <sebbs> opkg == no depencency resolving?
Dec 04 01:12:18 <raster> yes
Dec 04 01:12:22 <raster> it has full dependency resolving
Dec 04 01:12:25 <raster> just like apt
Dec 04 01:12:34 <raster> it will fetch packages from repositories over http
Dec 04 01:12:47 <raster> it has pretty much everything ap+dpkg has for "common usage"
Dec 04 01:12:50 <raster> apt+dpkg
Dec 04 01:12:54 <sebbs> what kind of packages
Dec 04 01:12:59 <sebbs> from what repo
Dec 04 01:13:00 <raster> .ipk
Dec 04 01:13:04 <raster> openembedded
Dec 04 01:13:06 <sebbs> never heard of
Dec 04 01:13:11 <raster> any repo you like
Dec 04 01:13:15 <sebbs> ?
Dec 04 01:13:22 <sebbs> .deb ?
Dec 04 01:13:34 <sebbs> what do you mean from any repo
Dec 04 01:13:43 <raster> .ipk
Dec 04 01:13:58 <raster> any openembedded repo that builds the same "distributiuon"
Dec 04 01:14:02 <raster> its just like deb
Dec 04 01:14:05 <sebbs> ok
Dec 04 01:14:10 <sebbs> so i would have to compile my own apps
Dec 04 01:14:14 <raster> .ipk is like .deb but much simpler format
Dec 04 01:14:15 <sebbs> for the phone if they are not included
Dec 04 01:14:19 <raster> yes
Dec 04 01:14:26 <raster> if its not in the repository
Dec 04 01:14:38 <sebbs> and since its arm, i would have to compile it on a arm platform
Dec 04 01:14:40 <raster> openembedded.org
Dec 04 01:14:41 <raster> read
Dec 04 01:14:42 <raster> :)
Dec 04 01:14:46 <raster> no
Dec 04 01:14:49 <raster> use openembedded
Dec 04 01:14:52 <sebbs> how long does it take to compile on it
Dec 04 01:14:54 <sebbs> ah
Dec 04 01:14:56 <raster> you can cross-compile
Dec 04 01:15:01 <sebbs> sweet
Dec 04 01:15:08 <raster> how do u think us devs make these flash images?
Dec 04 01:15:13 <raster> i do this all day everyu day
Dec 04 01:15:18 <raster> all my buildign happens on my desktop
Dec 04 01:15:23 <raster> i pump out flash or ext2. images
Dec 04 01:15:32 <sebbs> yes i know, i build those systems at work
Dec 04 01:15:42 <sebbs> scripting build processes
Dec 04 01:15:48 <raster> (jffs2 flash fro mmy neo's shapr and n800, ext2 fo my treo650)
Dec 04 01:15:50 <sebbs> specifcally for designers
Dec 04 01:15:53 <raster> i can build specific packages
Dec 04 01:15:57 <raster> and have specific ipk files
Dec 04 01:16:06 <raster> it can be used by anyone really
Dec 04 01:16:11 <raster> it is a pain to set up to start
Dec 04 01:16:38 <raster> but once set up
Dec 04 01:16:41 <DocScrutinizer> kd8ikt: don't do this, please!
Dec 04 01:16:43 <sebbs> so lets say a app like wyrd http://pessimization.com/software/wyrd/screenshot.png
Dec 04 01:16:46 <raster> i can build or rebuild any package with:
Dec 04 01:16:52 <raster> bitback -c rebuild packagename
Dec 04 01:16:53 <raster> err
Dec 04 01:16:55 <raster> bitbake
Dec 04 01:16:57 <sebbs> i would have to package that
Dec 04 01:16:58 <raster> or just
Dec 04 01:17:02 <raster> bitbake package
Dec 04 01:17:02 <sebbs> repackage
Dec 04 01:17:09 <raster> if its already built it'll do nothing
Dec 04 01:17:16 <raster> all package files get put in a directory
Dec 04 01:17:25 <raster> and yes
Dec 04 01:17:27 <raster> u'd have to package it
Dec 04 01:17:30 <raster> you write a .bb file
Dec 04 01:17:37 <raster> .bb basically tells oe how to build
Dec 04 01:17:40 <raster> and produce a package
Dec 04 01:17:49 <sebbs> so what hardware supports oe
Dec 04 01:17:50 <raster> in fact - it can produce multiple package formats
Dec 04 01:17:53 <raster> not just ipk
Dec 04 01:17:56 <raster> also can produce .deb
Dec 04 01:17:57 <raster> and others
Dec 04 01:17:58 <sebbs> smartphone wise
Dec 04 01:18:03 <raster> a LOT
Dec 04 01:18:20 <sebbs> would there be a compiled list somewhere around?
Dec 04 01:18:40 <raster> oe has builds for 94 hardware targets'
Dec 04 01:18:52 <raster> openmoko use oe for their default
Dec 04 01:18:56 <raster> as do all distros for the neo
Dec 04 01:18:58 <raster> EXCEPT debian
Dec 04 01:19:16 <raster> its used for openezx phones (the motorla hacked phones)
Dec 04 01:19:23 <raster> used for palm devices
Dec 04 01:19:26 <raster> including treo650
Dec 04 01:19:29 <raster> also htc phones
Dec 04 01:19:33 <raster> ipaq's
Dec 04 01:19:44 <raster> and more
Dec 04 01:19:46 <raster> as i said
Dec 04 01:19:52 <raster> i list 94 targets in oe
Dec 04 01:19:52 <sebbs> hmm
Dec 04 01:20:00 <DocScrutinizer> which might be a god thing, as I think OE is for EMBEDDED, *not* small computers that incidentally have a builtin modem ;-)
Dec 04 01:20:05 <sebbs> is there a list of those 94 targets/
Dec 04 01:20:06 <frojnd> Hello there.
Dec 04 01:20:10 <DocScrutinizer> s/go/goo/
Dec 04 01:20:10 <apt> DocScrutinizer meant: which might be a good thing, as I think OE is for EMBEDDED, *not* small computers that incidentally have a builtin modem ;-)
Dec 04 01:20:20 <sebbs> i am looking for something to run mutt on
Dec 04 01:20:27 <sebbs> textbased applications
Dec 04 01:20:32 <sebbs> and i want it to have a wifi card
Dec 04 01:20:42 <raster> sebbs: ~/oe/openembedded/conf/machine
Dec 04 01:20:44 <frojnd> I have 2 q. 1) WHere is the page with used openmokos, 2)If I get 9 other people who'd buy om, what's the discount ?
Dec 04 01:20:52 <raster> its the directory :)
Dec 04 01:20:57 <raster> of my ow tree
Dec 04 01:20:58 <raster> oe
Dec 04 01:21:01 <raster>  tree
Dec 04 01:21:11 <sebbs> i dont think i follow
Dec 04 01:21:53 <raster> ./packages/mutt/mutt_1.5.15.bb
Dec 04 01:22:00 <raster> oe already has a mutt package build
Dec 04 01:22:01 <sebbs> ok so you have that package
Dec 04 01:22:19 <sebbs> ok cool
Dec 04 01:22:32 <sebbs> but my question is more like, what hardware could i run that file on.
Dec 04 01:22:35 <raster> you dont need a fat 500+mb debian install (or 400mb)
Dec 04 01:22:37 <raster> just to run mutt
Dec 04 01:22:44 <raster> oe would manage it in 30m
Dec 04 01:22:50 <sebbs> that is way cool
Dec 04 01:22:58 <raster> of course u need to add in x and a wm and a terminal and vkbd
Dec 04 01:22:58 <sebbs> and if i can compile pkg for it its perfect for me
Dec 04 01:23:02 <raster> that fattens it up a bit
Dec 04 01:23:10 <sebbs> but thats cool
Dec 04 01:23:16 <sebbs> and i could run puredata on it too
Dec 04 01:23:17 <raster> openemebdded is a embedded device development infrastructure
Dec 04 01:23:25 <sebbs> if i compiled it and all the libs
Dec 04 01:23:35 <sebbs> but ok, so what targets are there around
Dec 04 01:23:43 <raster> a lot
Dec 04 01:23:44 <raster> 94
Dec 04 01:23:47 <raster> is what i list
Dec 04 01:23:48 <sebbs> i would like to go trhough them to find one that would fit me the best
Dec 04 01:23:53 <raster> ata  quick list
Dec 04 01:24:23 <sebbs> http://wiki.openembedded.net/index.php/Category:Machine
Dec 04 01:25:13 <raster> that doesnt list them
Dec 04 01:25:21 <raster> the wiki doesnt reflect the code
Dec 04 01:25:31 <DocScrutinizer> Eingebettete Systeme verrichten – weitestgehend unsichtbar für den Benutzer – den Dienst in einer Vielzahl von Anwendungsbereichen und Geräten, z. B. in Waschmaschinen, Flugzeugen, Kraftfahrzeugen, Kühlschränken,... [from http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eingebettetes_System]
Dec 04 01:25:36 <raster> git-clone the openembedded tree
Dec 04 01:25:41 <raster> and look in conf/machine
Dec 04 01:25:50 <DocScrutinizer> ..>> weitestgehend unsichtbar <<..
Dec 04 01:25:57 <DocScrutinizer> means no UI
Dec 04 01:26:10 <DocScrutinizer> that's where OE is coming from
Dec 04 01:26:15 <sebbs> is there a treo around that would allow me to install linux on it+ have wifi
Dec 04 01:26:20 <DocScrutinizer> no users, no perms...
Dec 04 01:26:28 <raster> sebbs:  no
Dec 04 01:26:31 <raster> treo doesnt have wifi
Dec 04 01:26:35 <raster> you COULD use bt tho
Dec 04 01:26:45 <raster> u can run a ip connection via bt
Dec 04 01:26:49 <sebbs> not to connect to a router
Dec 04 01:26:50 <raster> and for email it'd be overkill
Dec 04 01:27:03 <raster> true
Dec 04 01:27:06 <raster> wont have the range
Dec 04 01:27:08 <sebbs> my phone has a wifi connection now and i have grown used to it
Dec 04 01:27:12 <raster> tho some routers support bt
Dec 04 01:27:17 <sebbs> i like to sit on IM and irc
Dec 04 01:27:23 <sebbs> i would like to use mutt+irssi
Dec 04 01:27:24 <sebbs> etc
Dec 04 01:27:30 <sebbs> that is my ideal goal
Dec 04 01:28:11 <raster> i'd love that too
Dec 04 01:28:21 <raster> right now if it must be a phone
Dec 04 01:28:27 <sebbs> Finally… commenting about the Treo Pro
Dec 04 01:28:27 <sebbs> There is a lot packed into this little device.
Dec 04 01:28:27 <raster> freeruner is as close as that gets
Dec 04 01:28:28 <sebbs> It has WiFi and a 3G radio for fast mobile internet access. 
Dec 04 01:28:37 <raster> n810 if u dont care about the phone bit
Dec 04 01:28:50 <sebbs> i do care about the phone bit
Dec 04 01:28:53 <sebbs> i need it to be a phone
Dec 04 01:28:56 <raster> then you are short on choices
Dec 04 01:28:57 <raster> very short
Dec 04 01:29:02 <sebbs> http://www.palm.com/us/products/smartphones/treopro/
Dec 04 01:29:07 <sebbs> that one has everything i would need
Dec 04 01:29:13 <raster> linux not supported/ported
Dec 04 01:29:16 <sebbs> exactly
Dec 04 01:29:28 <raster> u could just port mutt+bitchx
Dec 04 01:29:33 <raster> that possibly wouldnt be too hard
Dec 04 01:29:37 <raster> to plamos
Dec 04 01:29:48 <sebbs> well true, but there are alot of apps i would like to be able to just apt-get
Dec 04 01:29:50 <raster> ooh wait
Dec 04 01:29:52 <raster> winmobile
Dec 04 01:29:55 <raster> u could port
Dec 04 01:29:58 <sebbs> what about them
Dec 04 01:29:58 <raster> use mingw32
Dec 04 01:30:02 <sebbs> *shrugs*
Dec 04 01:30:24 <sebbs> i think ill jus twait for the openmoko gta03 and use that
Dec 04 01:30:29 <sebbs> one day i will have what i want though
Dec 04 01:30:39 <raster> but right now
Dec 04 01:30:44 <sebbs> openmoko is a great leap from symbianOS
Dec 04 01:30:48 <raster> the t-mobiel g1 is the closes u'll get
Dec 04 01:30:49 <sebbs> i really hate symbian
Dec 04 01:30:55 <raster> to something that has linux
Dec 04 01:30:56 <raster> and 3g
Dec 04 01:30:57 <sebbs> g1 has already been hacked
Dec 04 01:30:58 <raster> and wifi
Dec 04 01:31:06 <sebbs> some guy installed debian on it
Dec 04 01:31:17 <sebbs> but they fixed that exploit 
Dec 04 01:31:28 <raster> and u'll need to "hack" the linux and get it all working differently from the default linux setup
Dec 04 01:31:53 <raster> (whihc isnt really linux except for kernel.. userspace is a new beast thats more bsd than linux and has its own custom windowing system etc.)
Dec 04 01:32:00 <raster> yes
Dec 04 01:32:06 <raster> every phone will do this
Dec 04 01:32:12 <raster> as even android is not open
Dec 04 01:32:17 <raster> google of course says its open
Dec 04 01:32:19 <sebbs> yes that sucks ass
Dec 04 01:32:23 <sebbs> seriously thats bad
Dec 04 01:32:25 <raster> its opne onyl for limited values of open
Dec 04 01:32:31 <sebbs> that is why i prefer a system i could just install debian on
Dec 04 01:32:33 <raster> not for the customers who pay money for the device
Dec 04 01:32:44 <raster> and thats why i really have no faith in android
Dec 04 01:32:50 <sebbs> nope i dont eitheri
Dec 04 01:32:54 <sebbs> its just something they can sell
Dec 04 01:32:57 <sebbs> ubuntu phonesthough
Dec 04 01:33:01 <sebbs> they could work
Dec 04 01:33:04 <raster> unlikely
Dec 04 01:33:07 <sebbs> yes
Dec 04 01:33:08 <sebbs> but they could
Dec 04 01:33:17 <raster> as a phone with that much ram/flash/cpu will be hyper-expensive
Dec 04 01:33:30 <raster> the g1 and iphone are fraily high-end devices
Dec 04 01:33:39 <raster> and they accomplish what they do by not wasting space
Dec 04 01:33:44 <raster> and cpu etc. and focusing on stuff
Dec 04 01:33:49 <raster> that is phone centric
Dec 04 01:33:54 <sebbs> irony, i need a high end device to run mutt
Dec 04 01:33:58 <raster> ubuntu would not be recognisable on a phone
Dec 04 01:34:04 <raster> it'd be a very trimmed version
Dec 04 01:34:07 <sebbs> yes
Dec 04 01:34:14 <raster> thats why you should consider oe
Dec 04 01:34:17 <raster> it alreayd is trim
Dec 04 01:34:23 <sebbs> i see your poin t
Dec 04 01:34:26 <raster> i can build a whole flash rootfs image with x
Dec 04 01:34:29 <raster> and runing enlightenment
Dec 04 01:34:34 <raster> in about 35m
Dec 04 01:34:37 <sebbs> could i run chroot?
Dec 04 01:34:41 <raster> runs on my treo650 without problems
Dec 04 01:34:43 <sebbs> like chrooted environments
Dec 04 01:34:56 <raster> why?
Dec 04 01:35:03 <sebbs> cos it would be way cool ^^
Dec 04 01:35:09 <DocScrutinizer2> first add a few users ;-)
Dec 04 01:35:28 <sebbs> so that treo 650 is perfect but lacks wifi
Dec 04 01:35:39 <sebbs> and a good screen
Dec 04 01:37:21 <raster> actually the screen is just fine
Dec 04 01:37:37 <raster> i have one and its pretty much perfect
Dec 04 01:37:39 <raster> sure
Dec 04 01:37:45 <raster> neo';s dpi is higher
Dec 04 01:37:48 <raster> but its insanely high
Dec 04 01:37:51 <raster> its overkill
Dec 04 01:37:55 <sebbs> i mean if you are in vi you would like that
Dec 04 01:37:59 <raster> and i have much better than 20/20 vision
Dec 04 01:38:01 <sebbs> so you see the rows
Dec 04 01:38:09 <sebbs> how can you have better the n20/20
Dec 04 01:38:19 <sebbs> that is not logical since 20/20 is perfect
Dec 04 01:38:21 <raster> 20/20 is "normal"
Dec 04 01:38:22 <raster> no
Dec 04 01:38:25 <raster> its "normal"
Dec 04 01:38:27 <DocScrutinizer2> yup
Dec 04 01:38:31 <sebbs> define normal
Dec 04 01:38:32 <raster> you can have better
Dec 04 01:38:38 <sebbs> i can see really good upclose
Dec 04 01:38:41 <sebbs> but not far
Dec 04 01:38:45 <DocScrutinizer2> I got 180%
Dec 04 01:38:51 <raster> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visual_acuity
Dec 04 01:38:55 <sebbs> DocScrutinizer2: so what you can see fractals?
Dec 04 01:39:08 <DocScrutinizer2> :D
Dec 04 01:39:12 * rooly fractaled your mom
Dec 04 01:39:37 <sebbs> raster: ok i see your point 20/20 is not perfect
Dec 04 01:40:02 <raster> yes
Dec 04 01:40:05 <raster> its "normal"
Dec 04 01:40:05 <raster> :)
Dec 04 01:40:32 <raster> those charts that test reading
Dec 04 01:40:36 <raster> i read all the way to the smallest
Dec 04 01:40:46 <raster> whihc is better than 20/20
Dec 04 01:40:54 <raster> i just dont know the "Value" of it
Dec 04 01:40:55 <sebbs> good for you
Dec 04 01:41:01 <raster> but its several steps beyond 20/20
Dec 04 01:41:04 <raster> but even for me
Dec 04 01:41:06 <DocScrutinizer2> nah, not really
Dec 04 01:41:10 <raster> .. the vga screen is overkill
Dec 04 01:41:11 <Spanska> are you talking about vision?
Dec 04 01:41:13 <sebbs> http://www.handhelds.org/moin/moin.cgi/FamiliarDistribution#screenshots
Dec 04 01:41:16 <sebbs> this looks good
Dec 04 01:42:12 <quatrox|zZzzzZzz> I agree with raster
Dec 04 01:42:18 <raster> it IS nice
Dec 04 01:42:25 <raster> if u hold it close u can see the pixels
Dec 04 01:42:35 <raster> i dont deny it having a really nice screen and dpi
Dec 04 01:42:38 <sebbs> still it has no wifi
Dec 04 01:42:40 <raster> but imho its "more than needed"
Dec 04 01:42:43 <sebbs> if it ha dwifi i would have bought it
Dec 04 01:42:52 <raster> the treo650 screen at a normal usage distance is just about right
Dec 04 01:42:56 <raster> so about 186dpi
Dec 04 01:43:03 <raster> yeah
Dec 04 01:43:05 <rooly> its alot better than your standard clamshell or candy bar with what looks like > 320x240
Dec 04 01:43:08 <raster> if it had wifi it'd be cooler
Dec 04 01:43:18 <raster> rooly: the treo650 or freerunner?
Dec 04 01:43:23 <rooly> the fr
Dec 04 01:44:12 <raster> oh sure
Dec 04 01:44:14 <raster> absolutely
Dec 04 01:44:21 <raster> sa lot of phones have qvga @ 2.8 or 3"
Dec 04 01:44:24 <raster> and thats not good
Dec 04 01:44:30 <raster> thats 120-140dpi
Dec 04 01:44:58 <raster> but the 180 or so dpi of the treo is just about "right"
Dec 04 01:45:27 <raster> its a comprimise between nice display rendering, speed and cost
Dec 04 01:47:07 <sebbs> haha Battery control  —  Battery charging not supported 
Dec 04 01:47:17 <raster> where?
Dec 04 01:47:19 <raster> treo650?
Dec 04 01:47:23 <sebbs> http://www.handhelds.org/moin/moin.cgi/HTC_2dPhones
Dec 04 01:47:27 <sebbs> "apache"
Dec 04 01:47:30 <raster> aaah
Dec 04 01:47:31 <raster> hehehe
Dec 04 01:47:38 <sebbs> that one was damn near perfect for me
Dec 04 01:47:58 <raster> newer phones have wifi
Dec 04 01:48:02 <raster> but are much less likely to have support
Dec 04 01:48:04 <sebbs> but i dont get it, so what i boot up to oe instead of normal?
Dec 04 01:48:21 <sebbs> yes but this one has support for everything except battery charging support
Dec 04 01:48:27 <sebbs> http://www.handhelds.org/moin/moin.cgi/HTCApache
Dec 04 01:48:38 <raster> maybe u can help get it working?
Dec 04 01:48:47 <sebbs> but hey
Dec 04 01:48:54 <sebbs> ]tell me doe sthis have a boot loader
Dec 04 01:48:59 <sebbs> is that how it works
Dec 04 01:49:08 <sebbs> i can choose to boot into oe or into the native os?
Dec 04 01:49:47 <sebbs> cos i could charge the phone in the native os, and use it normally. and then i could help them in getting it to work if i have the knowhow
Dec 04 01:50:02 <raster> generay thats how u do it
Dec 04 01:50:15 <raster> u end up with a dual-boot phone
Dec 04 01:50:17 <sebbs> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HTC_Apache
Dec 04 01:50:20 <raster> one into native shipped os
Dec 04 01:50:21 <sebbs> this one is nice
Dec 04 01:50:22 <raster> and one into linux
Dec 04 01:50:34 <sebbs> thats perfect enought
Dec 04 01:50:51 <raster> ho cdma
Dec 04 01:50:52 <raster> not gsm
Dec 04 01:51:04 <raster> so goes straight to my "sucks" list :)
Dec 04 01:51:09 <sebbs> aw
Dec 04 01:51:16 <sebbs> its a pda
Dec 04 01:51:23 <sebbs> it looks like aphone 
Dec 04 01:51:44 <sebbs> no dude u sure? it even has the green and red button
Dec 04 01:52:50 <sebbs> HTC PocketPC Phones
Dec 04 01:53:43 <raster> cdma
Dec 04 01:53:45 <raster> bleh
Dec 04 01:53:59 <sebbs> cdma?
Dec 04 01:54:51 <sebbs> oh cdma
Dec 04 01:55:39 <raster> yes
Dec 04 01:55:40 <raster> cdma
Dec 04 01:55:41 <raster> ewwwww
Dec 04 01:57:26 <sebbs> are there hp pdas with gsm modules?
Dec 04 01:59:01 <sebbs> raster: http://www.ubergizmo.com/15/archives/2005/08/htc_apache_smar.html
Dec 04 02:00:17 <raster> no gsm available as yet
Dec 04 02:00:52 <sebbs> raster: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qtek_9000
Dec 04 02:01:01 <sebbs> that is the gsm model
Dec 04 02:01:19 <sebbs> hm
Dec 04 02:01:20 <sebbs> no
Dec 04 02:01:21 <sebbs> haha
Dec 04 02:01:32 <sebbs> or is it?
Dec 04 02:01:51 <sebbs> crappy
Dec 04 02:02:08 <Dave> :)
Dec 04 02:02:10 <Dave> Hi raster
Dec 04 02:03:38 <swc|666> htc universal = dogshit, but nice in form
Dec 04 02:04:39 <sebbs> yes hardware was shait
Dec 04 02:06:09 <swc|666> i mean damn.. 64mb ram out of the box... no hostmode :s
Dec 04 02:07:56 <sebbs> swc|666: would you know about a pda+gsm (which will run apps like mutt) and be decent
Dec 04 02:09:04 <swc|666> sebbs: whats wrong with the FR?
Dec 04 02:09:20 <sebbs> too long await for GTA03
Dec 04 02:09:33 <swc|666> i hear u
Dec 04 02:09:53 <sebbs> i need a phone fast
Dec 04 02:10:04 <sebbs> best would be after xmas when stuff gets cheap
Dec 04 02:11:35 <swc|666> sebbs: if u live in korea there is one
Dec 04 02:11:59 <raster> Dave:  doov!
Dec 04 02:12:02 <swc|666> http://gizmodo.com/371244/miu-hdpc-does-linux-and-windows-in-all+in+one-package
Dec 04 02:12:28 <sebbs> haha damn
Dec 04 02:12:28 <swc|666> they dont anwer my emails tho :/
Dec 04 02:12:34 <swc|666> 4gb ram
Dec 04 02:12:37 <sebbs> wow
Dec 04 02:12:49 <sebbs> how doesw it do linux
Dec 04 02:12:49 <swc|666> its sick
Dec 04 02:12:55 <sebbs> can you install anything on it?
Dec 04 02:12:59 <swc|666> any which way i would assume
Dec 04 02:13:17 <swc|666> i dunno what the bios is like though
Dec 04 02:13:26 <swc|666> if it even has one
Dec 04 02:13:36 <raster> hmm
Dec 04 02:13:38 <sebbs> damn
Dec 04 02:13:40 <raster> thats an .. interesting device
Dec 04 02:13:41 <sebbs> that one is really sick
Dec 04 02:13:52 <swc|666> yep
Dec 04 02:13:59 <sebbs> but the reported life is 7 hours at "high power" or an impressive 90 hours at low power settings. 
Dec 04 02:14:08 <sebbs> it says
Dec 04 02:14:11 <swc|666> but - i need to find a korean to call them... anyone here speak it?
Dec 04 02:14:17 <sebbs> naw
Dec 04 02:14:26 <sebbs> get me one too
Dec 04 02:14:30 <raster> hashaah
Dec 04 02:14:33 <swc|666> ol
Dec 04 02:14:33 <sebbs> wonder what it costs though
Dec 04 02:14:35 <raster> i'll be in korea in jan
Dec 04 02:14:36 <swc|666> lol*
Dec 04 02:14:40 <raster> i just was there a few weeks ago
Dec 04 02:14:42 <sebbs> raster: yeah right
Dec 04 02:14:44 <swc|666> raster: really?
Dec 04 02:14:55 <raster> yes
Dec 04 02:14:59 <sebbs> what would the odds be
Dec 04 02:15:44 <swc|666> man wtf is going on ....:s -- this fscking pc = epic fail untarring a filesystem to sd
Dec 04 02:15:53 <sebbs> $400
Dec 04 02:15:55 <sebbs> thats nothing
Dec 04 02:16:16 <swc|666> http://pastebin.ca/1275491
Dec 04 02:16:44 <swc|666> meh... gotta throw the hd in another machine :s
Dec 04 02:17:02 <sebbs> ugly as sh*t though
Dec 04 02:17:05 <raster> thats possibly the smallest pc i've seen
Dec 04 02:17:06 <raster> ie x86
Dec 04 02:17:14 <raster> but it is ugly
Dec 04 02:17:19 <swc|666> yep
Dec 04 02:17:44 <raster> well smallest with kbd, screen and the lot
Dec 04 02:18:17 <raster> but...
Dec 04 02:18:19 <raster> i want a phone
Dec 04 02:18:23 <raster> smaller
Dec 04 02:18:30 <sebbs> i want a pda+gsm
Dec 04 02:18:31 <raster> size of a treo650
Dec 04 02:18:35 <raster> but 1/2 the thickness
Dec 04 02:18:36 <swc|666> by the time the FR has good specs and a decent stack, x86_64 will be mainstream for mobile phones :s
Dec 04 02:18:47 <sebbs> swc|666: u think?
Dec 04 02:18:49 <sebbs> that chip is big
Dec 04 02:19:04 <swc|666> j/k
Dec 04 02:19:26 <swc|666> although amd has some interesting stuff in the works from what i hear
Dec 04 02:20:35 <sebbs> zaurus are nice
Dec 04 02:20:38 <sebbs> but dont have gsm
Dec 04 02:20:42 <sebbs> iirc
Dec 04 02:25:11 <Sargun_Screen> Are there any NPAs that start with 0?
Dec 04 02:26:50 <raster> swc|666: hell no
Dec 04 02:26:57 <raster> x86 is a LONG way from phones
Dec 04 02:26:58 <raster> long long
Dec 04 02:27:10 <raster> there are orders of magnitude in power usage bwteen arm soc's and x86
Dec 04 02:27:11 <raster> even atm
Dec 04 02:27:13 <raster> or via's stuff
Dec 04 02:28:44 <swc|666> i know i was joking
Dec 04 02:29:52 <raster> in fact there are chips pushing an order of magnitude below arm's usage
Dec 04 02:29:56 <raster> like a factor of 10x
Dec 04 02:30:10 <raster> not ready yet ... but getting there
Dec 04 02:31:36 <swc|666> not soon enough :s
Dec 04 02:32:02 <raster> nothgni is ever soon enough
Dec 04 02:32:08 * swc|666 nods
Dec 04 02:32:12 * sebbs agrees
Dec 04 02:32:18 <raster> if u coudkl u'd want a chip from 100 years in the future available now
Dec 04 02:32:25 <raster> for no cost
Dec 04 02:32:26 <raster> :)
Dec 04 02:32:46 <rooly> or just a standard military-grade chip
Dec 04 02:32:47 <swc|666> lol
Dec 04 02:39:18 <sebbs> raster: where would i find a oe supported hardware list?
Dec 04 02:39:40 <sebbs> hw6915 ;ppls good
Dec 04 02:39:43 <sebbs> looks good
Dec 04 02:44:37 <sebbs> hmm perhaps a HP
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Thu Dec 04 02:59:57 2008