**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Thu Dec 04 02:59:57 2008
Dec 04 04:16:38 <CIA-20> openmoko: 03john_lee 07org.openmoko.dev * r2a4368b3a1d6 10/packages/qtopia-phone/openmoko-phoneprofile-data.bb: openmoko-phoneprofile-data.bb: increase PR to get the modified config.
Dec 04 05:33:38 <bhoj> i am not able to get google mpas on tangogps , i am using the same url given on the site . does anyone know any other gps application using googlemaps on openmoko
Dec 04 06:41:53 <kd8ikt>  
Dec 04 06:48:28 <swc|666>  
Dec 04 06:48:52 <swc|666> DCC chat ineedtotakemysorrybutttobed
Dec 04 06:54:47 <carlo> good morning
Dec 04 07:57:42 <methril> good morning
Dec 04 08:17:49 <Hopscotch> good morning
Dec 04 08:18:12 <beni> hi there
Dec 04 08:19:15 <beni> i need to do a long business travel the next two weeks
Dec 04 08:19:31 <beni> this is the ideal time to try out playing music
Dec 04 08:19:48 <beni> so, can someone suggest a good stable music player app for my freerunner?
Dec 04 08:21:20 <rooly|away> the qtopia music player works quite well
Dec 04 08:21:34 <rooly|away> however, you may want to turn off suspend while using it
Dec 04 08:22:08 <beni> how can i install that one?
Dec 04 08:22:17 <rooly|away> its in the repository
Dec 04 08:22:35 <rooly|away> probably named something like "qtopia-x11-mediaplayer" or such
Dec 04 08:22:40 <rooly|away> are you using asu?
Dec 04 08:23:40 <beni> yes
Dec 04 08:24:01 <rooly|away> i believe its under miscellaneous in the installer
Dec 04 08:24:56 <beni> how is pythm?
Dec 04 08:25:00 <beni> usabele already?
Dec 04 08:25:28 <rooly|away> couldn't tell you. i don't use it
Dec 04 08:26:16 <KenSentMe> Has anyone tried the new Android images from Sean McNeil? When i boot from the nand menu i get ERROR: Can't get kernel image
Dec 04 08:26:50 <KenSentMe> And when i just startup the Neo i get 'openmoko' on my screen, but nothing else
Dec 04 08:27:11 <rooly|away> KenSentMe, you'll need to use the old installer. uImage-tracking doesn't seem to boot correctly
Dec 04 08:27:33 <rooly|away> /s/installer/kernel
Dec 04 08:28:04 <KenSentMe> rooly|away, uImage-tracking isnt available anymore. I just used the uImage-Android on http://people.openmoko.org/sean_mcneil/
Dec 04 08:28:21 <rooly|away> ic
Dec 04 08:30:31 <KenSentMe> I will try om2008.8, to check if my phone is allright
Dec 04 08:30:46 <rooly|away> your phone is phone
Dec 04 08:30:47 <rooly|away> *fine
Dec 04 08:31:37 <emilis_info> doh... my FR discharged during the night
Dec 04 08:37:44 <beni> hm, could it be, that in 2008.11 the screen still does not go dark after a while?
Dec 04 08:37:53 <beni> or ist it just because i pluged it into usb?
Dec 04 08:38:15 <rooly|away> i do believe latest asu updates keep the phone from going into standby while charging
Dec 04 08:40:47 <emsyr> rooly|away: do you know what formats does qtopia media player support?
Dec 04 08:41:01 <rooly|away> it for sure supports ogg and wav
Dec 04 08:41:08 <beni> i dont want standby
Dec 04 08:41:14 <beni> i just want the screen go blank to save energy
Dec 04 08:41:22 <emsyr> rooly|away: what about video?
Dec 04 08:41:29 <beni> ie i want a black screen but be able to listen to music
Dec 04 08:41:48 <rooly|away> don't know, emsyr. theora and mpeg4 i'd assume
Dec 04 08:42:00 <emsyr> thanx
Dec 04 08:42:21 <rooly|away> beni, you can get access to those settings if you install illume-config
Dec 04 08:42:28 <emsyr> beni: I use illume-config to configure that
Dec 04 08:42:32 <rooly|away> best to do it via terminal
Dec 04 08:44:25 <beni> argh
Dec 04 08:44:33 <beni> my raster keyboard is gone since update :(
Dec 04 08:44:44 <raster> yay!
Dec 04 08:44:52 <rooly|away> beni, restart x
Dec 04 08:45:03 <rooly|away> /etc/init.d/x<tab> restart
Dec 04 08:46:15 <KenSentMe> rooly|away, phone is fine indeed. Om2008.8 kernel boots
Dec 04 08:46:25 <rooly|away> i told you so
Dec 04 08:47:04 <beni> did not helped. I already had illume-config installed
Dec 04 08:47:06 <KenSentMe> rooly|away, yeah mom ;)
Dec 04 08:47:10 <beni> and also rasters keyboard
Dec 04 08:47:17 <beni> without that, my FR is a cripple
Dec 04 08:47:18 <beni> :(
Dec 04 08:47:27 <rooly|away> did you restart x, beni?
Dec 04 08:47:29 <beni> yes
Dec 04 08:47:34 <rooly|away> ic
Dec 04 08:47:45 <rooly|away> pull down your top menu
Dec 04 08:47:56 <rooly|away> and tap the wrench in the corner
Dec 04 08:48:02 <beni> the wrench is also gone.
Dec 04 08:48:07 <rooly|away> ic
Dec 04 08:48:12 <rooly|away> reboot the phone totally
Dec 04 08:48:50 <beni> already did that too
Dec 04 08:48:59 <beni> i upgraded from a stable 2008.9 to testing of today
Dec 04 08:50:13 <rooly|away> i don't know what to tell you then
Dec 04 08:50:25 <rooly|away> opkg install illume-config --force-reinstall
Dec 04 08:50:45 <freqmod_qu> beni: i had also the problem with the wrench 
Dec 04 08:51:14 <freqmod_qu> if you go into /etc/enlightenment/default_profile (or something like that) and use the illume profile it will appear
Dec 04 08:51:55 <freqmod_qu> it looks like they are moving to a new config system (and in the edje files for the asu theme it is comments telling that they want to hide it)
Dec 04 08:51:56 <beni> okay
Dec 04 08:52:33 <freqmod_qu> beni: the illume theme is full of bling and crashes a lot more, but at least the wrench and the keyboard works
Dec 04 08:52:53 <beni> freqmod_qu: the keyboard is important
Dec 04 08:53:03 <beni> without it, using the term is a huge pain
Dec 04 08:53:06 <raster> freqmod_qu: its not the theme
Dec 04 08:53:07 * freqmod_qu know and agree
Dec 04 08:53:09 <raster> its the software_16 engine
Dec 04 08:53:14 <raster> use the software one
Dec 04 08:53:18 <raster> (normal one not 16bit)
Dec 04 08:53:20 <raster> its slower of course
Dec 04 08:53:23 <raster> but higher quality
Dec 04 08:53:25 <raster> and stable
Dec 04 08:53:53 <freqmod_qu> raster: the illume theme uses that, and the asu doesnt?
Dec 04 08:53:54 <beni> ok, cool. now i have the wrench etc back
Dec 04 08:53:57 <beni> but
Dec 04 08:54:03 <beni> the home app does not start
Dec 04 08:54:06 <henk> software_16? what is that? a package?
Dec 04 08:54:07 <beni> i have blank background
Dec 04 08:54:09 <raster> theme doesnt determine engine
Dec 04 08:54:11 <raster> config does
Dec 04 08:54:24 <raster> look at e's config
Dec 04 08:54:29 <freqmod_qu> profile illume etc?
Dec 04 08:54:36 <raster> engine
Dec 04 08:54:49 <raster> its there in the list
Dec 04 08:54:56 <raster> depends how new your e is
Dec 04 08:54:58 <freqmod_qu> but why does the wrench  appear when i choose --profile illume and not --profile asu?
Dec 04 08:55:02 <raster> it may be under advanced->engine
Dec 04 08:55:19 <raster> freqmod_qu:  it appears because the default config has the conf module loaded
Dec 04 08:55:27 <freqmod_qu> raster: ahh, ok
Dec 04 08:55:30 <raster> and enabled the conf gadget in the top-shelf area
Dec 04 08:55:37 <raster> its a gadget that can be added/removed at will
Dec 04 08:55:42 <raster> remove it is a bit like rm -rf /
Dec 04 08:55:54 <raster> you delete the binaries u rely on to "fix" things
Dec 04 08:56:22 * freqmod_qu thougt you disabled it in the same way that the asu theme "disables"/hides the qwerty button
Dec 04 08:56:30 <raster> it all stems from a difference of docus from me (upstream developer) and om's designers (who know nothing of the code, x or e) who insist that that config gagdte cant be there
Dec 04 08:56:36 <raster> and i insist it should be
Dec 04 08:56:47 <raster> for various reasons of upsteram development and usability
Dec 04 08:56:48 * freqmod_qu saw that in the code
Dec 04 08:56:58 <raster> the way asu disabled it was a complete hack
Dec 04 08:57:01 <raster> they didnt remove the gadget
Dec 04 08:57:08 <raster> they simpyl made a theme where the icon was blank
Dec 04 08:57:11 <raster> so u couldnt see it
Dec 04 08:57:52 <beni> lol
Dec 04 08:58:29 <beni> some dieas, why i dont hav ea "home" screen?
Dec 04 08:58:50 <beni> sorry
Dec 04 08:59:10 <beni> some ideas why i dont have a home screen after changing from "asu" to "illume" theme?
Dec 04 08:59:47 <raster> ?
Dec 04 08:59:49 <freqmod_qu> i had a similar problem when i copied and changed themes in hackish ways but i fixed it whith reinstalling all the enlightenment and illume packages
Dec 04 09:00:15 <raster> u mean no icons for launching stuff?
Dec 04 09:00:30 <raster> freqmod_qu: as such there are ways of doing things in the world of e
Dec 04 09:00:32 <raster> they do change
Dec 04 09:00:36 <raster> and we are cleaning up many things
Dec 04 09:00:40 <beni> raster: exactly
Dec 04 09:00:40 <beni> yes
Dec 04 09:00:47 <raster> but in general there is a real "official" mechanism for many things
Dec 04 09:00:56 <raster> if you go via that.. it will generally work and keep working
Dec 04 09:01:00 <raster> if u hack around it
Dec 04 09:01:06 <raster> u will maybe find things break.. often
Dec 04 09:01:12 <raster> :)
Dec 04 09:01:18 <raster> beni:  dunno. works for me...
Dec 04 09:01:20 <raster> :)
Dec 04 09:01:51 <beni> freqmod_qu: i wil try that
Dec 04 09:02:06 <freqmod_qu> btw i am working at a keyboard and i need two windows at the side of the screen (and the apps in the centre). Do you have a tip for the least hackish way to do that?
Dec 04 09:03:49 <raster> hmm
Dec 04 09:03:59 <raster> e/illume doesnt support such a layout
Dec 04 09:03:59 <nihil> hi anyone else getting bad crc  error when trying to boot sean_mcneils uimage?
Dec 04 09:04:03 <raster> i know what u are trying to do
Dec 04 09:04:16 <raster> keyboard in the world of illume sits at the bottom of the screen
Dec 04 09:04:17 <raster> thats it
Dec 04 09:04:21 <freqmod_qu> hehe
Dec 04 09:04:23 <raster> there is no other option
Dec 04 09:04:26 <raster> 1 window for kbd
Dec 04 09:04:45 <freqmod_qu> which meens that i'll have to hack on illume itself, as i assumed. ok
Dec 04 09:04:53 <raster> yes
Dec 04 09:04:58 <raster> and that will be ugly to try do that
Dec 04 09:05:08 <raster> as u need to really be invasive
Dec 04 09:05:12 <raster> as the kbd code is rather hacky
Dec 04 09:05:19 <raster> i do want to move vkbd stuff out to a module of its own
Dec 04 09:05:25 <raster> illume has too much stuff in just 1 module
Dec 04 09:05:38 <raster> and i need to virtualise things like handling visible "app area"
Dec 04 09:05:43 <raster> when kbd's and shelves eat up space
Dec 04 09:05:44 <raster> etc.
Dec 04 09:06:00 <vishal> hello has anyone used ublox agps service , can anyone tell me how to use it?
Dec 04 09:09:24 <beni> hm, now i have a new splas screen but still no app icons
Dec 04 09:10:29 <beni> now it works
Dec 04 09:10:32 <beni> new appearance
Dec 04 09:10:36 <beni> :(
Dec 04 09:11:38 * freqmod_qu wants to fix the asu profile/theme thing to load the correct modules when he has revised for his maths exam for about 8 hours
Dec 04 09:11:57 <raster> just use your own profile
Dec 04 09:12:01 <raster> :)
Dec 04 09:18:03 <beni> yeah illume-config has a wallpaper changer now
Dec 04 09:18:12 <beni> it crashes but at least its there :)
Dec 04 09:20:09 <raster> use software enigne
Dec 04 09:20:12 <raster> not software_16
Dec 04 09:20:14 <raster> it'll work then
Dec 04 09:20:21 <raster> iuts not very usable
Dec 04 09:20:22 <beni> yes but how to switch to that?
Dec 04 09:20:24 <raster> as the ui doesnt fit
Dec 04 09:20:28 <raster> thats on my to-fix list
Dec 04 09:20:34 <raster> the engines config
Dec 04 09:20:36 <raster> its there
Dec 04 09:20:39 <raster> under advanced
Dec 04 09:20:46 <raster> if they updated to a recent enough e
Dec 04 09:20:52 <raster> or just engines if its the big long list
Dec 04 09:21:00 <beni> ah found it+
Dec 04 09:21:18 <beni> its already at SOFTWARE_16
Dec 04 09:21:24 <henk> raster: isn't that one of those windows, that doesn't fit the screen?
Dec 04 09:21:36 <raster> u want SOFTWARe
Dec 04 09:21:40 <raster> not SOFTWARE_16
Dec 04 09:22:03 <raster> henk:  the wallpaper changer?
Dec 04 09:22:30 <henk> raster: no the window you mentioned where to change the engine? or am i confused?
Dec 04 09:22:38 <raster> it fits
Dec 04 09:22:45 <raster> its small
Dec 04 09:22:48 <beni> ah ok
Dec 04 09:22:59 <beni> i will use that then if illume recovered
Dec 04 09:23:01 <beni> (crashed)
Dec 04 09:23:22 <raster> illume's upstream config uses the normal software engine
Dec 04 09:23:24 <henk> raster: hm, i'll have to take a look at it tonight. don't have my FR with me :-/ thanks!
Dec 04 09:23:27 <raster> software_16 is known to have bugs
Dec 04 09:23:35 <raster> it works only for a subset of evas's rendering
Dec 04 09:37:02 <emsyr> Has anyone tried to import contacts from Evolution to Qtopia?
Dec 04 09:37:53 * freqmod_qu did import from kontact, but points to the wiki page on importing contacts to qtopia
Dec 04 09:39:35 <raster> hmm
Dec 04 09:39:49 <raster> why dont things just use vcard and "mbox" formats for stuff
Dec 04 09:39:52 <raster> nice and simple
Dec 04 09:39:54 <raster> and work
Dec 04 09:40:04 <raster> and easy to import/export and otherwise share
Dec 04 09:40:07 <emsyr> Using the instructions from wiki does a part of the job
Dec 04 09:40:24 <emsyr> some fileds are not imported
Dec 04 09:40:50 <emsyr> such as phone nums, home address...
Dec 04 09:40:53 <henk> raster: standards are nice! everyone should have one.
Dec 04 09:41:17 <emsyr> any idea?
Dec 04 09:41:23 <raster> henk:  yes.
Dec 04 09:41:24 <freqmod_qu> emsyr: see if there is a qtopia channel, they'll probably know better there
Dec 04 09:41:30 <raster> well i'm using vcard and mbox format
Dec 04 09:41:36 <raster> vcard for contacts
Dec 04 09:41:44 <raster> and simple 1 message in a file mbox for sms's
Dec 04 09:42:01 <raster> that should pretty much obviate any need to ever import/export
Dec 04 09:42:12 <raster> "just take the files and... use them!"
Dec 04 09:42:25 <raster> just need to make my vcard parser....
Dec 04 09:43:01 <henk> raster: what is it you do for the FR? write software? (sorry if it's a stupid question)
Dec 04 09:43:21 <Sargun> Are there any good tutorials on writing GUI-based Apps for FSO?
Dec 04 09:43:26 <raster> i write a few things
Dec 04 09:43:29 <emsyr> Evolution exports vcards with some proprietary fields.
Dec 04 09:43:45 <raster> e, illume efl, elementary, doing an sms app that will work with fso at the moment
Dec 04 09:43:54 <raster> and for that i neewd 1. a way to store and load sms's to/from disk
Dec 04 09:44:08 <raster> and well.. i need contacts to match numebrs to to display photo/name from an sms
Dec 04 09:44:21 <raster> so - i'm just writing all the code to handle that
Dec 04 09:44:41 <henk> raster: ah ok... 
Dec 04 09:45:02 <Daramarak> raster: A good sms application is really needed.
Dec 04 09:45:19 <raster> Daramarak:  working on it
Dec 04 09:45:25 <raster> at least its really pretty
Dec 04 09:45:29 <henk> 'sigh' some day i'll have enough free time to help with developement too, i hope :-/
Dec 04 09:45:32 <raster> i'm doing it in a conversations-format
Dec 04 09:45:35 <raster> a lot like irc
Dec 04 09:45:39 <raster> or an instant messenger
Dec 04 09:45:46 <raster> where everything you said and others said to you
Dec 04 09:45:49 <raster> (sms'd)
Dec 04 09:45:56 <raster> is listed in a big scrollable list
Dec 04 09:46:03 <freqmod_qu> i want a phonebook with a tree  or at least categories that can be read from vcal
Dec 04 09:46:07 <raster> well actually only the most recent N items will probably be there
Dec 04 09:46:20 <raster> and older will be available in archive lists
Dec 04 09:46:41 <raster> i will priobably look at doing a full dialler next
Dec 04 09:46:44 <raster> then a contacts app
Dec 04 09:46:44 <freqmod_qu> quassel fixes that in a nice way. it loads the backlog when you scroll to it
Dec 04 09:46:45 <henk> raster: i love the idea, since i use sms mainly for talking to my GF during worktime 'g' and thats very similar to IM...
Dec 04 09:46:52 <raster> and thats about as far as i intend to go
Dec 04 09:47:01 <Daramarak> raster: Planned any option to filter on a single contact or group?
Dec 04 09:47:10 <raster> otherwise keep wroking on illume, the keyboard, e, launcher, config tools for e and the system in general
Dec 04 09:47:15 <raster> and improvign thsoe core phone apps
Dec 04 09:47:19 <raster> and the widget set behind them
Dec 04 09:47:25 <Daramarak> raster: :) I am experiencing the same thing.
Dec 04 09:47:31 <raster> Daramarak:  yes. filter already planned
Dec 04 09:47:32 <raster> hel
Dec 04 09:47:53 <raster> theres already a "filter" option in the options list for each message
Dec 04 09:48:12 <raster> it'll let u filter "messahges ONLY from this person"
Dec 04 09:48:19 <raster> or "only conversations WITH this person"
Dec 04 09:48:21 <henk> ah, right, you are the keyboard-guy... now i remember. i like qwo more though ;)
Dec 04 09:48:25 <raster> which is all messages u sent to them
Dec 04 09:48:27 <raster> and they sent to u
Dec 04 09:48:30 <raster> ordered by time
Dec 04 09:48:35 <Daramarak> raster: Stop chatting and get coding :) It sounds great! 
Dec 04 09:48:39 <raster> so basically your "sent messages"
Dec 04 09:48:47 <raster> is just "filter all messages from this person"
Dec 04 09:48:49 <raster> ie - you
Dec 04 09:49:04 <raster> but my main focus is the widget set behind it
Dec 04 09:49:15 <raster> this is mroe just a test app to drive it
Dec 04 09:49:18 <raster> so i'm keeping it simple
Dec 04 09:49:38 <raster> if others wish to carry the flame on and make it do more after i get it up on its "i do sms ok now" legs
Dec 04 09:49:41 <raster> i'm all for it
Dec 04 09:50:03 <Daramarak> great
Dec 04 09:50:04 <raster> but for me it' all about using very standard on-disk formats for the data
Dec 04 09:50:12 <raster> if there is something that irks me for so many phoens and apps
Dec 04 09:50:13 <Daramarak> What language?
Dec 04 09:50:28 <raster> its not being able to easily share contacts and messages between other apps
Dec 04 09:50:30 <raster> like my desktop
Dec 04 09:50:35 <raster> if i use vcard and mbox format
Dec 04 09:50:39 <raster> it is trivial to share
Dec 04 09:50:44 <raster> it's in c
Dec 04 09:51:41 <Daramarak> Good, then I can change it to fit my needs :) (Although the transition between C and C++ boggles my head sometimes)
Dec 04 09:51:58 <raster> hehehe
Dec 04 09:52:03 <raster> thats the idea
Dec 04 09:52:06 <raster> i want to keep it small and simple
Dec 04 09:52:09 <raster> then its easy to hack
Dec 04 09:52:18 <raster> i just want it doing sms decently
Dec 04 09:52:24 <raster> with a ui paradigm that doesnt totally suck
Dec 04 09:52:29 <Daramarak> Yeah, simple but not sloppy.
Dec 04 09:52:42 <raster> i know it wont have a bazillion options and features
Dec 04 09:52:48 <raster> i dont have time ot do it
Dec 04 09:53:07 <raster> but i have time to do all the core nuts and bolts to make sure the widgetset/toolkit is working and usable for such tasks
Dec 04 09:53:17 <raster> i might also move some stuff into the toolkit
Dec 04 09:53:25 <raster> like vcard parsing and writing
Dec 04 09:53:35 <raster> so the widget set may natively know about your contacts and messages
Dec 04 09:53:38 <dent> I was thinking... wouldn't it be nice if the UI gave more visual feedback if a button is pressed? Currently (in e), not much changes if I press a button (only the edge)
Dec 04 09:53:41 <raster> tho not sure that belongs in the toolkit
Dec 04 09:53:43 <raster> maybe a helper lib
Dec 04 09:53:52 <dent> so I'm not always sure I actually pressed what I intended to
Dec 04 09:54:06 <raster> dent:  i really need to make the touchsrceen make tap noises
Dec 04 09:54:14 * henk .oO( if i only knew c :-/ )
Dec 04 09:54:21 <raster> then u'd know
Dec 04 09:54:23 <raster> u hear it
Dec 04 09:54:30 <dent> hm, yeah
Dec 04 09:54:36 <raster> but now buttons in he get a white "Glow" around the inner edge of the black button
Dec 04 09:55:03 <raster> the theme could do more
Dec 04 09:55:05 <dent> yeah, just it seems to me it's easy tomiss the glow
Dec 04 09:55:07 <raster> but i'm staying conservative for now
Dec 04 09:55:11 <dent> ok :)
Dec 04 09:55:32 <raster> i could have some pulsating wave that flies out from the button
Dec 04 09:55:40 <raster> but cant work on everything at once
Dec 04 09:55:43 <raster> once thing at a time
Dec 04 09:56:03 <dent> nah, I didn't mean to complain
Dec 04 09:56:14 <Daramarak> "Make it work, make it fast, make it pretty" But stick to the order.
Dec 04 09:57:16 <dent> btw. the alarm app in SHR, with the "flipping" numbers is cool :)
Dec 04 09:57:27 <dent> or, more precisely, the numbers are wow :)
Dec 04 10:06:31 <Daramarak> I am wondering if I should try once again on fso+shr, are the new ms4.1 image so stable that I can make calls, send/receive sms and suspend/resume reliably?
Dec 04 10:06:41 <raster> dent:  no worries
Dec 04 10:07:33 <raster> dent:  that is the new widget set (elementary) that i am using the sms app to drive
Dec 04 10:07:38 <raster> dent:  and the sms app is even nicer
Dec 04 10:07:40 <raster> :)
Dec 04 10:07:54 <dent> Daramarak: I'm using it as my main phone, sometimes it hurts, but it's mostly ok :)
Dec 04 10:07:55 <raster> all messages are in speech bubbles
Dec 04 10:08:05 <raster> menus slide out and pop up nicely
Dec 04 10:08:10 <dent> :)
Dec 04 10:08:25 <Daramarak> dent: What is the "hurting" ?
Dec 04 10:08:44 <dent> btw. you're the 'e' guy, right? were you behind E even in the late 90s, i.e. is that your 'child'?
Dec 04 10:08:48 <dent> raster: ^
Dec 04 10:09:05 <raster> yes
Dec 04 10:09:06 <dent> Daramarak: for one thing, the default sounds are annoying :) but that's easily changed
Dec 04 10:09:06 <raster> my baby
Dec 04 10:09:08 <raster> :)
Dec 04 10:09:19 <dent> raster: wow :)
Dec 04 10:09:20 <Tm_T> raster: sorry to hear that
Dec 04 10:09:32 <raster> Tm_T:  :-P~
Dec 04 10:09:37 <Tm_T> raster: (;)
Dec 04 10:10:41 <dent> I remember back in the 90s, how e was all eye-candy, I almost had an orgasm just from that =)) using top to see how incedibly much ram can X take :)
Dec 04 10:11:12 <Tm_T> dent: all 16 MiB ?
Dec 04 10:11:37 <dent> even more :) I don't remember how much I had back then
Dec 04 10:11:41 <Tm_T> heh
Dec 04 10:11:52 <Tm_T> I still use WfW 3.11 in my laptop
Dec 04 10:11:55 <dent> but from current point of view... I don't know how was it possible to even start X back then :)
Dec 04 10:12:52 <raster> i developed e on a p120 with 32m ram
Dec 04 10:12:56 <raster> so it wasnt that heavy
Dec 04 10:12:58 <Tm_T> but atleast it's Digital (DEC) <3
Dec 04 10:13:04 <raster> i think it was just a matter of the craptastic x drivers
Dec 04 10:13:11 <raster> on a good x it works well
Dec 04 10:13:20 <raster> in those days s3's ruled
Dec 04 10:13:27 <raster> i ad a s3 968 with 2m vram
Dec 04 10:13:37 <raster> that was relatively top-of-the-line
Dec 04 10:13:42 <raster> and well supported in xf86
Dec 04 10:15:42 <dent> it did work, but it exercised the x server way more than... what the hell was it that I was using also :)
Dec 04 10:16:00 <Tm_T> dent: KDE?
Dec 04 10:16:02 * Tm_T hides
Dec 04 10:16:10 <dent> nah, maybe ome early gnome, or just window maker
Dec 04 10:20:53 <raster> wmaker and e have almost the same vintage
Dec 04 10:20:58 <raster> e defintiely pushed x more
Dec 04 10:21:04 <raster> kde is a little older than e
Dec 04 10:21:12 <raster> but it definitelyt didnt even try push much
Dec 04 10:22:47 <raster> kde always struck me as ugly
Dec 04 10:22:53 <raster> its improved markedly in recent years
Dec 04 10:22:59 <raster> but still.. just doesnt gel with me
Dec 04 10:33:52 <henk> oh? e is based on fvwm?
Dec 04 10:35:43 <henk> i wonder how well fvwm would work on a FR... i just love fvwm :)
Dec 04 10:35:56 <lindi-> henk: should work well since icewm does
Dec 04 10:35:57 <Hire> someone has tested Qi on FR?
Dec 04 10:36:44 <henk> lindi-: but it's probably not available as a [oi]pk, right? is it in debian?
Dec 04 10:37:00 <henk> lindi-: is it in debian on armel that is. i know it is in debian for x86...
Dec 04 10:42:08 <raster> henk: k e based on fvwm?> ahhahahahahahhaha
Dec 04 10:42:18 <lindi-> henk: debian armel has 90% of the packages that debian x86 has
Dec 04 10:42:37 <lindi-> henk: so yes, sure it is available: * sid_(unstable) (x11): F(?) Virtual Window Manager   1:2.5.26-1: alpha amd64 arm armel hppa hurd-i386 i386 ia64 kfreebsd-amd64 kfreebsd-i386 m68k   mips mipsel powerpc s390 sparc
Dec 04 10:44:56 <henk> raster: no? according to WP it was a hack of fvwm.
Dec 04 10:45:09 <raster> wp?
Dec 04 10:45:14 <henk> raster: wikipedia
Dec 04 10:45:34 <raster> wp is about as accurate as bush is on how to keep world peace
Dec 04 10:45:42 <oon> :)
Dec 04 10:45:45 <sleipnir> lol
Dec 04 10:45:46 <henk> lindi-: good, thanks :)
Dec 04 10:45:58 <raster> it is no such thing
Dec 04 10:46:01 <henk> raster: hehe, good point...
Dec 04 10:46:08 <raster> e is the size of a small african nation - when it comes to wm's
Dec 04 10:46:19 <raster> and it has nothing to do with fvwm
Dec 04 10:46:31 <raster> in fact e17 is e's 2nd rewrite
Dec 04 10:46:35 <raster> i first started working on fvmw
Dec 04 10:46:37 <raster> did fvwm-xpm
Dec 04 10:46:59 <raster> but then decided long before E 0.1 (DR 0.1) that fvmw wanst going to cut it
Dec 04 10:47:06 <raster> as it just didnt have the infra
Dec 04 10:47:10 <raster> so i wrote e from scratch
Dec 04 10:47:22 <raster> DR 0.14 was a rewrite
Dec 04 10:47:29 <raster> so Fr 0.1 -> 0.13 was the same codebase
Dec 04 10:47:35 <raster> 0.14->0.16 the same
Dec 04 10:47:37 <dent> henk: I don't see it in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enlightenment_(window_manager)
Dec 04 10:47:39 <raster> and 0.17 is a complete redo
Dec 04 10:48:06 <henk> raster: ah ok, then the german WP-version of the E-article is a bit unclear in the formulation of that.
Dec 04 10:48:14 <henk> dent: german ;)
Dec 04 10:48:19 <dent> ach so! :)
Dec 04 10:48:20 <raster> e17 as a wm alone (not including the libs specifically writtne just for it) is 180k lines of code
Dec 04 10:48:29 <raster> last i checked fvwm was about 11k
Dec 04 10:48:57 <henk> raster: fvwm including all its modules?
Dec 04 10:49:11 <raster> can't remember
Dec 04 10:49:43 <henk> doesn't matter anyway. such numbers don't really tell much...
Dec 04 10:50:11 <raster> the libs written for e17 is about 330k lines of c
Dec 04 10:50:17 <henk> but i gotta tell my GF i talked to E's author 'g' she loved that wm!
Dec 04 10:50:25 <raster> so as such if u compare apples with apples
Dec 04 10:50:32 <dent> henk :)
Dec 04 10:50:33 <raster> take fvm and all its modules
Dec 04 10:50:38 <raster> and take e+ all its libs
Dec 04 10:51:02 <dent> henk: try to get her an autograph too :)
Dec 04 10:51:03 <raster> i suspect vwm with its modules is probably 20k
Dec 04 10:51:08 <raster> so 20k vs 500k 
Dec 04 10:51:11 <henk> dent: lol
Dec 04 10:51:13 <raster> it doesnt mean e is better
Dec 04 10:51:20 <raster> it shwos u how little theyare related
Dec 04 10:51:21 <raster> :)
Dec 04 10:51:41 <raster> e is phat
Dec 04 10:52:10 <faltantornillos> Hi. What's the right command for locking the screen? pls
Dec 04 10:52:24 <dent> raster: could you sign that blank piece of paper for us? (we fill in the account numbers later) j/k :))
Dec 04 10:53:05 <raster> hahahaha
Dec 04 10:53:15 <henk> raster: hehe, nevertheless it's performing amazingly well considering all the eye candy and effects!
Dec 04 10:53:30 <raster> it can be better
Dec 04 10:53:36 <raster> i know of optimisations that can be done
Dec 04 10:53:39 <raster> lots and lots
Dec 04 10:53:46 <raster> just no time to do them atm
Dec 04 10:53:47 <henk> raster: i just wished e17 would have been finished some years earlier. it'd have stolen compiz/beryl/whatever's show :)
Dec 04 10:53:52 <Sargun> holy shit, my free runner does ipv6. 
Dec 04 10:54:03 <raster> henk: k to be honest - i wouldnmt want to
Dec 04 10:54:11 <raster> the gl rendering is hell on earth
Dec 04 10:54:21 <raster> its buggy and dicey depending on your driver, card etc.
Dec 04 10:54:26 <raster> its pretty horrid to deal with
Dec 04 10:55:22 <raster> also if e had gone that way u'd never see it on a phone today
Dec 04 10:55:24 <raster> or pda
Dec 04 10:55:25 <raster> etc.
Dec 04 10:57:00 <henk> raster: no no, i wasn't talking about that whole compositing shit. the desktop effects in e16 were already pretty nice and very fluid. i mean those 'standard' effects that e does without compositing...
Dec 04 10:57:31 <raster> they were nastyt hacks
Dec 04 10:57:32 <raster> nasty
Dec 04 10:57:44 <raster> e17 is the infra to avoid nasty hacks in the future
Dec 04 10:57:53 <raster> and do things right so u dont need to do such ugliness
Dec 04 10:58:14 <henk> raster: oh ok, so not so many nice effects as in e16?
Dec 04 10:58:24 <CIA-20> openmoko: 03john_lee 07org.openmoko.dev * rc6994deaa633 10/packages/e17/ (4 files in 3 dirs): e-wm, illume: apply raster's patch to fix #1946
Dec 04 10:58:25 <CIA-20> openmoko: 03john_lee 07org.openmoko.dev * r065e1ce56168 10/packages/efl1/etk_svn.bb: etk_svn.bb: make the patches apply to r36882 only.
Dec 04 10:58:54 <raster> henk: different ones
Dec 04 10:59:08 <raster> henk: ripple isnt there but got flames, snow, rain.
Dec 04 10:59:13 <raster> dropshadows
Dec 04 11:00:13 <henk> raster: i think i have seen those effects when i tried the unstable builds from some apt-repository for e... haven't really used e16, just know it from my GF a litte...
Dec 04 11:02:03 <raster> e17 is infinitely beyond e16 in terms of rendering infra
Dec 04 11:02:10 <raster> theme engine and so on
Dec 04 11:02:24 <raster> its pretty much bleeding edge for theme stuff irrespective of the platform, wm or toolkit
Dec 04 11:02:34 <raster> and its very much designed to expand
Dec 04 11:03:38 <henk> raster: forgive the irony please: it _is_ or it _was_? e17 is in developement for about half a decade now without one release isn't it?
Dec 04 11:03:50 <raster> is
Dec 04 11:04:03 <raster> anmd u obviously havent looked at the snapshots we do
Dec 04 11:04:08 <raster> like go e17 as wine1.0
Dec 04 11:04:12 <raster> there is a goal
Dec 04 11:04:17 <raster> and we work to it
Dec 04 11:04:25 <raster> we dont release just because some date ticked around
Dec 04 11:04:30 <raster> or users get antsy
Dec 04 11:04:36 <raster> all code is available in svn always
Dec 04 11:04:54 <henk> i like that philosophy. in debian as well.
Dec 04 11:05:05 <raster> and is pretty much always usable and runs without many problems (i use e17 every day as do 1000's of users - they just build from svn)
Dec 04 11:05:13 <raster> so if u want ti
Dec 04 11:05:15 <raster> its available
Dec 04 11:05:18 <raster> we dont PUSH it on you
Dec 04 11:05:22 <raster> you puill it when u like
Dec 04 11:05:49 <raster> but e17 is like a point when we say "this is wquality stuff u can rely on and we will support this with upgrade paths and so on"
Dec 04 11:05:58 <raster> until then we save the effort of support and focus on getting stuff done
Dec 04 11:06:30 <henk> hmm... but building from svn takes time and energy.. i'll have to look for a debian repository later.
Dec 04 11:08:31 <raster> have u tried easy_e17.sh
Dec 04 11:08:34 <raster> or get_e.sh?
Dec 04 11:08:40 <raster> they just fetch and build for u
Dec 04 11:08:43 <raster> get_e.sh i wrote
Dec 04 11:08:51 <raster> it supports ubuntu and installs build dependencies for u
Dec 04 11:08:58 <igor321> raster: will there ever be e packages for some major distros? i'm loving python-efl but it was hell installing it
Dec 04 11:08:58 <raster> and just churns and builds and installs
Dec 04 11:09:01 <henk> raster: brrr ubuntu... ;)
Dec 04 11:09:05 <raster> nothng much left to do than let it run
Dec 04 11:09:17 <raster> igor321:  already for fedora-core
Dec 04 11:09:20 <raster> and in testing for debian
Dec 04 11:09:29 <raster> as for hell
Dec 04 11:09:34 <raster> should just use the scripts
Dec 04 11:09:37 <raster> its easy to install
Dec 04 11:09:45 <raster> tho python-efl is apita
Dec 04 11:09:51 <raster> the normal core libs and e is easy
Dec 04 11:09:55 <igor321> i did use the easy_17 scripts, most of my problems were with the bindings
Dec 04 11:09:58 <henk> raster: does it build a .deb? e17 is in debian testing? under what name?
Dec 04 11:09:58 <raster> its well defined and a well trodden path
Dec 04 11:10:17 <raster> henk: oh sorry - in experimental not testing
Dec 04 11:10:18 <lindi-> henk: show-package-versions e17
Dec 04 11:10:18 <igor321> and the debian packages are broken, dunno about fedora
Dec 04 11:10:26 <lindi-> henk: **** Package e17 ****     * experimental (x11): The Enlightenment DR17 Window Manager       0.16.999.050-1: alpha amd64 hppa i386 mips mipsel powerpc s390 sparc       0.16.999.043-1: ia64
Dec 04 11:10:28 <raster> and no the scxritps dont build .debs
Dec 04 11:10:30 <henk> raster: ah ok...
Dec 04 11:10:35 <raster> they just build and install as per defaults
Dec 04 11:10:42 <raster> ie exactly the way i do
Dec 04 11:10:48 <raster> and i do my dev on ubuntu
Dec 04 11:10:53 <henk> lindi-: i'd have needed experimental sources which i don't have on my server ;)
Dec 04 11:11:11 <lindi-> henk: show-package-versions is one-liner that uses lynx to talk to packages.debian.org
Dec 04 11:11:19 <lindi-> henk: no sources necessary
Dec 04 11:11:21 <henk> raster: how about uninstalling?
Dec 04 11:11:35 <raster> if u are smart
Dec 04 11:11:43 <raster> use prefix of /opt/e17
Dec 04 11:11:48 <raster> and then rm -rf /opt/e17
Dec 04 11:11:50 <raster> :)
Dec 04 11:12:06 <raster> e will dutifully stay within its prefix
Dec 04 11:12:14 <henk> raster: ah software that installs cleanly! very nice! :)
Dec 04 11:12:21 <raster> or.. u can use make uninstall
Dec 04 11:12:23 <raster> it should work
Dec 04 11:12:30 <raster> if u find it leaves stuff - let us know
Dec 04 11:12:33 <raster> it MAY leave directories
Dec 04 11:12:37 <raster> but defintiely no files
Dec 04 11:12:39 <henk> even that :) most software doesn't provide that.
Dec 04 11:12:39 <raster> or shouldnt
Dec 04 11:12:49 <raster> as far as build goes its consistent and clean
Dec 04 11:12:55 <henk> lindi-: oh, never seen, never heard, never tasted. where can i get it?
Dec 04 11:13:00 <raster> which is why i always am baffled by the need for packages
Dec 04 11:13:01 <raster> :)
Dec 04 11:13:05 <lindi-> henk: http://iki.fi/lindi/show-package-versions
Dec 04 11:13:17 <lindi-> henk: it just seems people are lazy to browse packages.debian.org manually :)
Dec 04 11:13:24 <raster> we have made a lot of effort in making the src build and install good and clean
Dec 04 11:13:30 <raster> thats what u get when u are in development for years
Dec 04 11:13:36 <raster> your dev env ends up pristinely good
Dec 04 11:13:50 <henk> lindi-: too true, i notice that a lot in #debian.de...
Dec 04 11:15:02 <henk> raster: afaihh the mac uses a similar concept for software. just put it in a folder and it works. doesn't put stuff anywhere on the system you won't find later when you want to remove it. just delete the folder...
Dec 04 11:16:21 <lindi-> henk: and track the dependencies :)
Dec 04 11:17:20 <henk> lindi-: hu? 'confused' what do you mean?
Dec 04 11:17:44 <lindi-> henk: if you remove /opt/libfoo you might see /opt/libbar failing since it happened to depend on libfoo
Dec 04 11:18:03 <raster> henk: thats e. in fact.. u can compile with --prefix=/some/dir/whatever
Dec 04 11:18:08 <raster> ALL u need to do is move that dor
Dec 04 11:18:09 <raster> ie
Dec 04 11:18:20 <raster> mv /some/dir/whatever /opt/software/e
Dec 04 11:18:22 <raster> or whetever
Dec 04 11:18:25 <raster> and it will keep working
Dec 04 11:18:33 <raster> all libs and binaries should "just work"
Dec 04 11:18:42 <raster> as they dynamically discover their prefixes
Dec 04 11:18:55 <raster> and adjust accordingly for finding modules, data files etc.
Dec 04 11:19:30 <F4t> hey all, does anyone know what system is this? http://review.source.android.com/3081 (i mean the whole web system, is it google's or some open project management tool?)
Dec 04 11:20:01 <lindi-> F4t: "This is Gerrit v1.0-121-g9346173"
Dec 04 11:20:45 <F4t> Thanks!
Dec 04 11:21:01 <F4t> demn... didnt notice...
Dec 04 11:21:50 <Ainulindale> polz: opkg update please
Dec 04 11:22:03 <Ainulindale> (didn't eat, queue was too long)
Dec 04 11:22:33 <F4t> it seems it is google's project... and not some 3rd party...
Dec 04 11:45:56 <CIA-20> openmoko: 03werner * r4845 10/developers/werner/ahrt/host/tmc/ (demo/dxplore.py lib/dxplore.py lib/scope.py lib/wave.py): (log message trimmed)
Dec 04 11:45:56 <CIA-20> openmoko: Highlights:
Dec 04 11:45:56 <CIA-20> openmoko: - waves can now be labeled (labels are stored when saving and can be displayed
Dec 04 11:45:56 <CIA-20> openmoko:  in dxplore)
Dec 04 11:45:56 <CIA-20> openmoko: - a user-defined origin in dxplore is now marked with a red triangle
Dec 04 11:45:57 <CIA-20> openmoko: Details:
Dec 04 11:46:01 <CIA-20> openmoko: - lib/wave.py: waves now have an attribute "label" containing their name
Dec 04 11:47:37 <henk> raster: couldn't you make some sort of software management system out of that ;)
Dec 04 11:47:57 <CIA-20> openmoko: 03werner * r4846 10/developers/werner/wlan-resume/vds.py: Use labels. Awkward descriptions, goodbye :-)
Dec 04 11:47:57 <raster> ?
Dec 04 11:48:07 <henk> lindi-: yes, of course... that sucks a bit...
Dec 04 11:48:27 <henk> raster: so everything 'just works' and discovers where it can find what it needs by itself...
Dec 04 11:49:23 <Daramarak> Are there c++ opkg packages?
Dec 04 11:50:20 <raster> henk: ummmm not it only finds its own location
Dec 04 11:50:31 <raster> once it knows where it lives it assumes u have everything moved along with it
Dec 04 11:50:43 <raster> its simply the same logic autopackage uses
Dec 04 11:50:50 <raster> to allow for relocatable apps/packages
Dec 04 11:51:00 <raster> but slightly extended with more evilness to make ti a bit more robust
Dec 04 11:51:05 <raster> anbd more platform-independent
Dec 04 11:53:16 <igor321> efl's really great, i'm writing an youtube in it in my spare time
Dec 04 11:53:24 <igor321> *youtube app
Dec 04 11:53:33 <igor321> too bad the glamo sucks balls
Dec 04 11:53:44 <igor321> but with the new kernel it's not so bad
Dec 04 11:53:53 <igor321> i get something like 10 fps scrolling
Dec 04 12:01:00 <beni> any idea, how i can change the analog clock in the shelf to a digital one?
Dec 04 12:01:13 <beni> i think the analog one is hard to read
Dec 04 12:01:18 <beni> especially in smaller shelfes
Dec 04 12:01:59 <ethy__> i'm triying to install android in my freerunner
Dec 04 12:02:54 <ethy__> i've downloaded android image but it has jffs2 format
Dec 04 12:03:34 <igor321> yes, the correct format
Dec 04 12:03:38 <ethy__> anyone know how mount this image to copy contents to micro-sd?
Dec 04 12:03:59 <igor321> i don't think you can run android from usd for now
Dec 04 12:04:05 <ethy__> ohh 
Dec 04 12:04:07 <igor321> but i might be mistaken
Dec 04 12:04:14 <ethy__> ok, thanks
Dec 04 12:05:07 <pieterc> nope, you can't run android from usd
Dec 04 12:05:10 <ethy__> i don't want to flash freerunner memory, i'm newbie with freeruner
Dec 04 12:05:19 <pieterc> since android needs the microsd to put files on
Dec 04 12:05:40 <pieterc> therefore you need a ext3 partition on your usd
Dec 04 12:05:41 <pieterc> ;)
Dec 04 12:05:42 <ethy__> ok, then i'll try to flash freerunner
Dec 04 12:05:52 <pieterc> don't forget to partition your usd!
Dec 04 12:05:54 <ethy__> yeah, i have a ext3 partition
Dec 04 12:06:04 <pieterc> you should have 2 partitions
Dec 04 12:06:10 <pieterc> or more
Dec 04 12:06:11 <pieterc> i guess
Dec 04 12:06:29 <ethy__> i have 8mb fat and ext3 partitions
Dec 04 12:06:35 <pieterc> ok
Dec 04 12:06:38 <pieterc> that's ok :)
Dec 04 12:06:42 <pieterc> g2g now
Dec 04 12:06:42 <pieterc> bye
Dec 04 12:08:35 <dent> beni: rm -r ~/.e did the trick for me, although there must be a less invasive way too :)
Dec 04 12:08:55 <dent> bit if you are not gonna mis your old .e config, then this is simple enough :)
Dec 04 12:08:59 <dent> s/bit/but/
Dec 04 12:09:00 <apt> dent meant: but if you are not gonna mis your old .e config, then this is simple enough :)
Dec 04 12:09:08 * dent loves apt :)
Dec 04 12:09:32 <beni> well
Dec 04 12:09:32 <henk> i wonder how intelligent apt is though... what will it do if i say that now:
Dec 04 12:09:33 <beni> hm
Dec 04 12:09:36 <henk> s/i/o/
Dec 04 12:09:37 <apt> henk meant: o wonder how intelligent apt is though... what will it do if i say that now:
Dec 04 12:09:41 <henk> s/i/o/g
Dec 04 12:09:42 <apt> henk meant: o wonder how ontellogent apt os though... what woll ot do of o say that now:
Dec 04 12:10:19 <henk> oh this is fun :)
Dec 04 12:10:26 <beni> dent: well, hm i think i will miss it
Dec 04 12:10:38 <beni> but if it has to do with the .e folder, i maybe find out
Dec 04 12:11:54 <dent> henk: stop abusing apt :)
Dec 04 12:12:54 <henk> :(
Dec 04 12:13:48 <CM_work> ~comfort henk
Dec 04 12:13:50 <apt> There, there, henk.  It's OK.  I'm here for you.
Dec 04 12:13:54 <CM_work> :D
Dec 04 12:14:57 <henk> ah... apt can be so comforting :) i wonder what rpm would have done 'g'
Dec 04 12:15:13 <beni> ~praise beni
Dec 04 12:15:14 <apt> All hail beni!
Dec 04 12:15:17 <beni> :)
Dec 04 12:15:23 <beni> henk: you are right
Dec 04 12:15:42 <beni> ~eat pizza
Dec 04 12:15:43 <apt> That's too disgusting.
Dec 04 12:15:46 <beni> hehehehe
Dec 04 12:16:06 <beni> ~blame glamo
Dec 04 12:16:07 * apt blames glamo (and Canada) for all the evil in the world
Dec 04 12:24:46 <beni> dent: well, all below .e is binary
Dec 04 12:24:54 <beni> dent: and removing it solves nothing
Dec 04 12:25:17 <beni> ~praise raster
Dec 04 12:25:18 <apt> All hail raster!
Dec 04 12:25:30 <beni> please, god of illume, help!
Dec 04 12:26:56 <dent> beni: hm :-( it somehow worked for me, although no idea how
Dec 04 12:35:48 <ethy__> i'm flashing android to freerunner
Dec 04 12:35:50 <ethy__> ..
Dec 04 12:44:11 <ethy__> fail, freerunner is frozen in start screen
Dec 04 12:44:33 <KenSentMe> ethy__, same problem here. Havent found out how to fix it
Dec 04 12:46:38 <beni> raster: ping
Dec 04 12:55:48 <CIA-20> openmoko: 03zecke 07org.openmoko.dev * re92958018fc7 10/ (3 files in 2 dirs): coreutils: Build and package df of coreutils
Dec 04 13:05:01 <beni> arg, again suspend dead.
Dec 04 13:07:47 * beni thought that that was fixed already
Dec 04 13:13:15 <beni> why do ppl like eyecandy more than working stuff?
Dec 04 13:13:30 <madwoota> oooo, shiny!
Dec 04 13:19:36 <beni> well, tangogps also hangs here now.
Dec 04 13:20:06 <beni> hm, ssh hangs also
Dec 04 13:20:41 <metalx2000> Hello, I just got my free runner yesterday, and I just now flashed it to the 2008.9 OS.  But after a minute or so the screen Dimed.
Dec 04 13:20:50 <beni> ok, ssh hangs because i didn't plug the cord in
Dec 04 13:20:53 <metalx2000> I can still kinda see the menu options
Dec 04 13:20:53 <beni> ~blame beni
Dec 04 13:20:55 * apt blames beni (and Canada) for all the evil in the world
Dec 04 13:21:11 <metalx2000> but since I just install it I don't even no how to reboot it
Dec 04 13:21:14 * beni shame on me
Dec 04 13:21:44 <metalx2000> I can see the Brightness button. but when I press it nothing happens
Dec 04 13:21:55 <beni> metalx2000: you cant activate an ?
Dec 04 13:22:19 <beni> app?
Dec 04 13:22:58 <metalx2000> I can barely see the screen.  but I can click on items 
Dec 04 13:23:24 <metalx2000> but I just upgraded so I don't know my way around yet.
Dec 04 13:23:41 <beni> yours dims mine not
Dec 04 13:23:49 <beni> ~blame dimming
Dec 04 13:23:50 * apt blames dimming (and Canada) for all the evil in the world
Dec 04 13:24:05 <metalx2000> ok?
Dec 04 13:30:30 <janrikard> im trying to flash my openmoko for the first time, but i get an error that dfu-util finds more than one device that it can program, and dfu-util tells me to remove the "other" device
Dec 04 13:30:30 <janrikard> when i do dfu-util --list without the moko connected i get the folloing
Dec 04 13:30:30 <janrikard> Found Runtime: [0x413c:0x8126] devnum=3, cfg=0, intf=3, alt=0, name="UNDEFINED"
Dec 04 13:30:30 <janrikard> how do i find out what that is so i can remove it?
Dec 04 13:32:35 * SpeedEvil finds another system he wants OM on.
Dec 04 13:32:38 <SpeedEvil> Dec  4 13:31:28 coco kernel: usb 1-1.1: Product: LILLIPUT S3C2410A SPQ SYSTEM
Dec 04 13:32:48 <SpeedEvil> My new scope!
Dec 04 13:33:11 <janrikard> or is it possible to use the --device vendor:product ?
Dec 04 13:34:09 <janrikard> it seems that its possible
Dec 04 13:41:21 <beni> well, tangogps hangs after laoding the first map tiles saying no gps found
Dec 04 13:41:35 <beni> in faxct it logs that connection to gpsd was successful
Dec 04 13:41:42 <beni> it says "** cb_gps_timer()" periodically now.
Dec 04 14:09:28 <edje2> hi all, i took the bold step to update with the help of http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-November/036694.html. now it does not start into a graphical environment
Dec 04 14:10:00 <edje2> do i need to update the kernel as well? if so, where do i find the new kernel?
Dec 04 14:12:17 <ethy__> installing android, second try 
Dec 04 14:16:06 <edje2> well, i have to reboot my desktop, be back in a little while.
Dec 04 14:29:25 <edje2> hi all, i just upgraded my freerunner, and now it does not boot into a graphical env anymore. do i need to upgrade the kernel as well? if so, where do i find the new kernel ?
Dec 04 14:30:03 <spydon> edje2, you should find it on the same page as you found the rootfs
Dec 04 14:30:11 <spydon> which distro did you upgrade to?
Dec 04 14:30:46 <edje2> om2008.11 ( the version that would become 2008.11 but never did
Dec 04 14:31:32 <edje2> i used the instructions on: http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-November/036694.html
Dec 04 14:31:43 <CIA-20> openmoko: 03tick * r4847 10/trunk/src/target/opkg/libopkg/opkg_upgrade.c: opkg: trivial just indent
Dec 04 14:31:55 <CIA-20> openmoko: 03tick * r4848 10/trunk/src/target/opkg/libopkg/pkg_vec.c: opkg: using calloc to replace the malloc, initialize varaiable
Dec 04 14:32:51 <beni> well, i i place a theme file in my ~/.e/e/themes/illume.edj will the default system theme processed before loading my personal theme?
Dec 04 14:33:03 <beni> i.e. am i able to just put a background image in my personal theme?
Dec 04 14:35:33 <edje2> hmmm... i think i found my problem: " must remove 'ro' in kernel boot parameter if you use sd boot."
Dec 04 14:35:59 <edje2> i should have read more carefull *before* rebooting. ;-)
Dec 04 14:36:10 <ethy__> android kernel and fs is flashed on my freerunner but when it try to boot after decompressing kernel it shows "bad crc" message, some ideas?
Dec 04 14:37:07 <ethy__> i've followeb this guide: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/User:Seanmcneil3
Dec 04 14:37:12 <ethy__> followed
Dec 04 14:37:37 <Weiss> edje2: kernel and rootfs come as a matched pair because the rootfs contains kernel modules which must match the running kernel. you might get away with a mismatch, but it's not worth the 30sec it takes to flash the kernel as well
Dec 04 14:39:10 <edje2> Weiss: right, it is not a matter of not willing to flash it, but i am unable to find the coresponding kernel with this upgrade
Dec 04 14:39:40 <Weiss> edje2: really? on http://downloads.openmoko.org/daily/testing/ ?
Dec 04 14:40:18 <Weiss> edje2: ah, you opkg upgrade-d?
Dec 04 14:40:42 <edje2> Weiss: yup, i did
Dec 04 14:41:20 <Weiss> edje2: that should pull in the kernel and all modules correctly (opkg uses a utility to write the kernel to NAND as if you'd flashed it yourself)
Dec 04 14:41:51 <edje2> i use SD boot, so that might explain it
Dec 04 14:42:52 <Weiss> possibly. if you can figure out why it didn't work, a bug report might be useful (but just "it didn't work" isn't likely to help anyone). the upgrade patch is Supposed To Work afaik
Dec 04 14:44:03 <edje2> well, my boot option tells the bootloader to get the kernel from the first partition of the SD card. i think the upgrade utility does not regonize the SD boot
Dec 04 15:02:17 <beni> Weiss: that is a very interesting info
Dec 04 15:02:31 <beni> i already was confused why i am able to install a new kernel via opkg
Dec 04 15:02:36 <beni> without flashing one
Dec 04 15:02:55 <Weiss> beni: yep, in fact (aiui) this will become the only way of flashing a new kernel with Qi
Dec 04 15:03:02 <beni> noes!
Dec 04 15:03:09 <beni> flashing is so much fun
Dec 04 15:03:10 <Weiss> since all of the non-trivial functionality is being deliberately removed
Dec 04 15:03:13 <sebbs> heybwriting with a stylus is not too bad. i acctually like it. it feels alot more coherent then when writing with all fingers cos atleast i run on reflex. but when writing with a stylus i observe myself writing.
Dec 04 15:03:26 <Weiss> lol... it wears a little thin after a while...
Dec 04 15:03:40 <beni> Weiss: flashing new kernel with qi also means that i need a working rootfs, doesn't it?
Dec 04 15:03:55 <JaMa> hello.. I have problem with rootfs building..
Dec 04 15:03:56 <beni> but in this situation, it may become able to brick the kernel
Dec 04 15:04:01 <beni> withoud beeing able to reflash
Dec 04 15:04:15 <sebbs> hehe funny  that the first thing i write is wrong
Dec 04 15:04:18 <JaMa> is something strange happening with log.do_rootfs files in OE? now they have > 100MB with some i suppose git messages which sometimes has word Fail in it, which makes rootfs log checker very angry at me :(
Dec 04 15:04:33 <JaMa> its because of git-log -n1 --pretty=oneline
Dec 04 15:04:35 <beni> because if rootfs wont boot anymore, i need to guess what kernel is installed to be able to find a rootfs that boots so i ca install a new kernel
Dec 04 15:04:42 <sebbs> beni: sound like a bad idea
Dec 04 15:04:44 <JaMa> defined in conf/distro/openmoko.conf
Dec 04 15:05:35 <beni> Weiss: what happens if i can only boot into qi then?
Dec 04 15:05:37 <sebbs> does anyone develop on the open moko? or is the inputting of text with stylus too frustrating?
Dec 04 15:06:06 <beni> sebbs: if you find a dev that develops over terminal of moko, this must be an ascet.
Dec 04 15:06:30 <sebbs> ascet?
Dec 04 15:06:46 <beni> ascetic
Dec 04 15:06:47 <beni> sorry
Dec 04 15:07:05 <beni> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ascetic
Dec 04 15:07:09 <JaMa> there should be maybe git-log -n1 --pretty=oneline|head -n 1|awk '{print $2}'
Dec 04 15:07:26 <SpeedEvil> awk '{print $2;exit}'
Dec 04 15:07:53 <sebbs> beni:  i know what the word means i did not understand what ascet. meant
Dec 04 15:08:16 <sebbs> i dontknow why you would use that term in this context though
Dec 04 15:08:59 <JaMa> SpeedEvil: its because my git-log changed format? or what it was supposed to do before?
Dec 04 15:09:12 * SpeedEvil was just complaining of the useless use of head.
Dec 04 15:10:00 <JaMa> SpeedEvil: ok..  --pretty=oneline looks like the output should be one line :)
Dec 04 15:10:27 <JaMa> could someone check it? I have git version 1.6.0.4
Dec 04 15:17:04 <Blackhex> Hello, I just want to ask how to upgrade from 2008.9 stable image to testing repository via SSH? When dropbear is actualized it's also restarted thus connection broken and upgrade failed. Thanks
Dec 04 15:19:29 <JaMa> SpeedEvil: i found the reason.. 
Dec 04 15:19:31 <Weiss> beni: not entirely sure how you'd boot into some "emergency" state. the kernel is read straight off the partition, though.
Dec 04 15:19:44 <CIA-20> freesmartphone.org: 03mickey 07framework * r0fd56bffb7e7 10/framework/ (controller.py objectquery.py subsystem.py): give subsystems and objects a chance to properly shut down
Dec 04 15:19:52 <JaMa> git log works fine git-log doesnt.. its probably because i dont have git-log and its only alias..
Dec 04 15:20:00 <Weiss> Blackhex: there are some recommended instructions somewhere. basically, you use "screen" to keep the session open during the disconnect
Dec 04 15:20:20 <Blackhex> Weiss: thx I'll check it out
Dec 04 15:27:15 <beni> Weiss: what if the kernel is corrupted for some reason? it will never be able to be recovered if qi could not flash the device.
Dec 04 15:30:55 <linuxxr> ooooo noooos
Dec 04 15:30:57 <SpeedEvil> uboot is always in NOR
Dec 04 15:31:21 <CIA-20> freesmartphone.org: 03mickey 07framework * ra6bca2e7e40d 10/framework/ (resource.py subsystems/odeviced/idlenotifier.py): resource: disable resource on object shutdown
Dec 04 15:32:09 <bumbl> yep good old uboot and or good old debug board would solve the problem
Dec 04 15:34:26 <CIA-20> freesmartphone.org: 03mickey 07framework * r0586dfe1deb6 10/framework/subsystems/odeviced/kernel26.py: odeviced: [kernel26] turn off LED on shut down
Dec 04 15:43:29 <Toriku1> Is android easy to install yet?
Dec 04 15:43:50 <zash> Is Android not retarded java crap yet?
Dec 04 15:44:58 <zash> s/a c/a sandboxed c/
Dec 04 15:44:58 <apt> zash meant: Is Android not retarded java sandboxed crap yet?
Dec 04 15:44:59 <bumbl> zash: java has its pros
Dec 04 15:45:21 <bumbl> and cons
Dec 04 15:45:29 <bumbl> but yes android is limited to java
Dec 04 15:45:36 <henk> yeah! it works on every platform! just like anal sex has it pros since it works with every gender!
Dec 04 15:46:30 <bumbl> believe me or not, I like the java syntax 
Dec 04 15:47:02 <Dave> Speaking of java... :p
Dec 04 15:47:16 <Dave> Jalimo doesn't seem to work on SHR :[
Dec 04 15:47:39 <Dave> some conflict with libgcc :\
Dec 04 15:47:48 <Dave> Bumble have you tried?
Dec 04 15:47:56 <richy> Dave: -force-depends or something
Dec 04 15:48:06 <Dave> oh yeah duh
Dec 04 15:48:06 <richy> it does say so on jalimo wiki
Dec 04 15:48:13 <Dave> I was considering that this morning :P
Dec 04 15:48:23 <Dave> since it seemed like it would still work anyway :)
Dec 04 15:49:09 <richy> java itself does work, here. swt doesn't however..
Dec 04 15:50:04 <Toriku1> javac sucks
Dec 04 15:50:09 <Toriku1> I mean swat
Dec 04 15:50:26 <Blackhex> Please do anyone know where I can find those nice icons: http://www.om.vptt.ch/site/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/integrate3.png
Dec 04 15:52:43 <CM_work> Hire: Do you know?
Dec 04 15:52:56 * CM_work points to Blackhex's question above
Dec 04 15:53:41 * Weiss wonders: has anyone ever encountered weirdness with sessions hanging at logout? either with SSH or xterm. it's suddenly started happening to me
Dec 04 15:55:04 <Blackhex> Weiss: I'm not sure what you mean exactly but my ssh connections hangs when I use setsid commands on any server
Dec 04 15:55:32 <bumbl> Dave: i haven't tried java on the freerunner yet
Dec 04 15:55:51 <Dave> Nevermind :D
Dec 04 15:56:06 <Dave> richy, I got swt working on the freerunner a while back on 2007
Dec 04 15:56:17 <Dave> I used libswt3.4-swt-blah
Dec 04 15:56:26 <Dave> or whatever it's called
Dec 04 15:57:18 <Dave> libswt3.4-gtk-java
Dec 04 15:57:26 <Weiss> Blackhex: i mean that the session works fine, but when i logout (via ctrl-d, 'exit' or closing the xterm window (xterm running on the Neo)), the process goes into uninterruptible sleep
Dec 04 15:57:33 <Dave> I did a sample app, similar to that on the jalimo page
Dec 04 15:57:59 <Blackhex> Weiss: and you haven't used setsid or nohup command in that session?
Dec 04 15:58:50 <richy> Dave, I tried the sample app, did throw some error at me. Didn't invastigate it further though 
Dec 04 15:59:00 <Dave> Ah, okay :)
Dec 04 15:59:14 <richy> I just received a call, (on the Freerunner ;) )  my bike is all fixed, will be back soon.
Dec 04 15:59:47 <Dave> woot
Dec 04 15:59:49 <Weiss> Blackhex: not *knowingly*...
Dec 04 15:59:55 <Dave> Then are you going to mount it on your bike?
Dec 04 15:59:58 <Dave> :p
Dec 04 16:00:19 <Weiss> hmm, now i've rebooted and it's behaving again
Dec 04 16:53:16 <Zoup> where to see missed called on SHR ?
Dec 04 16:58:54 <richy> Zoup: nowhere yet
Dec 04 16:59:19 <bumbl> Zoup: use pyphonelog
Dec 04 17:00:47 <Zoup> is this possible to use om2007 pim on shr ? 
Dec 04 17:11:29 <ebbe> Does anyone know what command to use to bring up menu from the "wrench"?
Dec 04 17:29:32 <pieterc> it had something to do with the config file disabling it
Dec 04 17:29:48 <pieterc> ebbe: since the config files are being transfered
Dec 04 17:29:54 <pieterc> or something like that
Dec 04 17:39:25 <_charly_> x
Dec 04 17:58:55 <glacius> hey guys 
Dec 04 17:59:07 <glacius> Are there issues with att sims and the freerunner
Dec 04 17:59:17 <mickey> not with moko10 firmware
Dec 04 17:59:27 <mickey> yes, with earlier versions
Dec 04 18:00:04 <glacius> ok
Dec 04 18:00:17 <glacius> so a firmware flash would fix any issues
Dec 04 18:00:44 <glacius> getting rady to purchase one
Dec 04 18:00:46 <mickey> it should, ya
Dec 04 18:00:49 <glacius> ready to purchase one
Dec 04 18:01:30 <glacius> and have att
Dec 04 18:01:36 <glacius> so u understand the concern
Dec 04 18:01:37 <glacius> :)
Dec 04 18:02:07 <DocScrutinizer2> hi, mickey :-)
Dec 04 18:02:21 <mickey> hi
Dec 04 18:03:05 <_charly_> hi :)
Dec 04 18:05:40 <glacius> do GTA02v5 have any big issues
Dec 04 18:05:49 <glacius> over the GTA02v6
Dec 04 18:07:57 <_charly_> v5 doesn't have the gps fix, don't know if there are other differences
Dec 04 18:08:59 <alephnull> How does one check the GTA02 version ?
Dec 04 18:10:06 <mickey> cat /proc/cpuinfo
Dec 04 18:10:32 <_charly_> but the gps software fix works pretty well on the v5 :)
Dec 04 18:10:37 <alephnull> Ah, thanks.
Dec 04 18:14:08 <glacius> gps fix?
Dec 04 18:16:17 <_charly_> glacius: v5 had problems getting a gps position fix when a sd card was inserted, see also http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/GPS_Problems
Dec 04 18:16:34 <alephnull> Ah, thanks.
Dec 04 18:16:46 <glacius> _charly_: is it worth it for me to get the v5 or should i wait until i can get a v6
Dec 04 18:19:30 <mwester> glacius:  where would be able to find a v5 anymore?
Dec 04 18:19:43 <glacius> craigs list,ebay etc..
Dec 04 18:20:07 <mwester> Ok, used.  yeah, well, you never know what you'll get that way.
Dec 04 18:20:47 <mwester> So if you don't want to deal with the software workarounds, or reflashing bootloaders, then you really need to order a brand new one.
Dec 04 18:21:08 <_charly_> i have a v5, and it works for me. v6 has the gps problem fixed in hardware, but the software fix/workaround also works perfect. v6 also has the aux led fixed, but i'm not sure if this fix is also in v5
Dec 04 18:21:36 <glacius> aux led ?
Dec 04 18:22:10 <glacius> and i dont mind reflashing and i have an old cingular sim
Dec 04 18:22:20 <glacius> i am currently using
Dec 04 18:22:52 <_charly_> it drew too much current in the first produced devices, but i think this was fixed before start of mass production
Dec 04 18:23:57 <glacius> they retail for like 499 right
Dec 04 18:24:14 <glacius> anywher cheaper
Dec 04 18:24:32 <glacius> i prob can get one used but a g5 for $280
Dec 04 18:24:41 <glacius> u would think
Dec 04 18:33:51 <glacius> ?
Dec 04 18:36:51 <glacius> ok thanks for the info guys
Dec 04 18:38:55 <_charly_> well, a5 works, has known problems which can be fixed, most of them in software. the only issue that has to be fixed in hardware is the gsm buzzing issue, but also a6 has it. afaik this will be fixed in a7. but you can always take an a5 and a soldering iron and fix the issues yourself (if you have the skill to do this, of course)
Dec 04 18:39:48 <glacius> ok cool
Dec 04 18:39:52 <glacius> thanks again
Dec 04 18:41:22 <spydon> how do I know which version I have?
Dec 04 18:42:10 <mickey__> cat /proc/cpuinfo
Dec 04 18:45:53 <_charly_> mickey__: are there any problems with the fso feeds on downloads.freesmartphone.org? i haven't seen updates for a while
Dec 04 19:00:22 <spydon> ty mickey__ 
Dec 04 19:02:47 <CarloRatm> anyone knows if there's a good channel for EFL (Enlightenment Foundation Libraries) ?
Dec 04 19:03:22 <zash> CarloRatm: locate raster
Dec 04 19:04:22 <mickey__> #edevelop
Dec 04 19:05:24 <CarloRatm> ty all
Dec 04 19:30:22 <costi> hi all
Dec 04 19:30:32 <costi> my freerunner just arrived today!
Dec 04 19:30:44 <costi> i puted the newest FDOM in
Dec 04 19:31:00 <costi> but the sound is not working
Dec 04 19:31:15 <tifereth> which sound?
Dec 04 19:31:34 <costi> ~#espeak
Dec 04 19:31:35 <costi> hello world
Dec 04 19:31:35 <costi> wave_open_sound > Pa_OpenStream : err=-9996 (Invalid device)
Dec 04 19:31:35 <costi> wave_open_sound > Pa_OpenStream : err=-9996 (Invalid device)
Dec 04 19:31:35 <costi> wave_open_sound > Pa_OpenStream : err=-9996 (Invalid device)
Dec 04 19:31:35 <costi> wave_open_sound > Pa_OpenStream : err=-9996 (Invalid device)
Dec 04 19:31:37 <costi> wave_open_sound > Pa_OpenStream : err=-9996 (Invalid device)
Dec 04 19:32:21 <janrikard> i tried to install the android imagesbut al i get is "cant get kernel image"
Dec 04 19:32:21 <janrikard> i followed the instructions on http://onlinedev.blogspot.com/2008/11/getting-started-with-android-on-neo.html 
Dec 04 19:32:21 <janrikard> and the instructions on the wiki, anyone have any better instructions?
Dec 04 19:33:03 <DocScrutinizer2> sounds like Pulse-audio. think that's gone
Dec 04 19:33:20 <costi> so what should i do?
Dec 04 19:34:56 <DocScrutinizer2> pester the espeak-devels? dunno. Probably someone else has better advice, here in this #
Dec 04 19:35:57 <costi> well, its not espeaks fault, i can hear no sound at all...
Dec 04 19:37:00 <costi> has the "default" freerunner the newest kernel?
Dec 04 19:37:34 <nihil> janrikard, do you have the crc error?
Dec 04 19:37:57 <tifereth> costi, afaik noo but you should have flashed a new one if you flashed fdom
Dec 04 19:38:13 <costi> ahh, ok
Dec 04 19:38:17 <costi> so it should work!
Dec 04 19:38:18 <nicfer> One question, would openmoko work on android phones?
Dec 04 19:38:49 <janrikard> nihil: i dont get any errors except the error ive wrote, or at least i dont see any
Dec 04 19:39:03 <costi> well.... i will give the QT based thing a try
Dec 04 19:39:11 <costi> thank you guys
Dec 04 19:40:22 <nicfer> Like the htc g1
Dec 04 19:41:20 <nihil> its probably that
Dec 04 19:42:54 <nihil> janrikard, if you have an account http://forum.koolu.org/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=15&start=15#p99
Dec 04 19:43:41 <costi> do you think, it is possible to detect car crashes with the accelerometer + AGPS ??
Dec 04 19:44:09 <janrikard> nihal: im reading there and i think it can help, thanks
Dec 04 19:44:51 <nihil> well i posted it, so I am sure it works
Dec 04 20:00:46 <janrikard> nihil: im not having any luck, I think somethink is wong with my bootmenu, im going to flash it
Dec 04 20:01:18 <nihil>  do you have the recent uboot?
Dec 04 20:02:09 <janrikard> nihil: 1.3.2
Dec 04 20:06:19 <nihil> janrikard, so you flashed recently with http://downloads.openmoko.org/daily/gta02v5_and_up-u-boot.bin ?
Dec 04 20:09:31 <janrikard> nihil: i flashed it now, and when i "set console to USB" i dont get wierd errormessages anymore
Dec 04 20:10:54 <nihil> okay, good jaebird 
Dec 04 20:11:04 <nihil> *janrikard
Dec 04 20:13:24 <janrikard> nihil: was able to connect now and followed the instructions and it ended with "Verifying Checksum ... OK" so i think it went well, then the moko went brigth white and then black, should i reboot or is it booting?
Dec 04 20:14:07 <nihil> it's booting ;)
Dec 04 20:15:47 <janrikard> nihil: if im going back to something else, do i have to reverse the kermit thing?
Dec 04 20:17:23 <nihil> nope
Dec 04 20:17:29 <nihil> the setting is lost on the next boot
Dec 04 20:18:11 <janrikard> nihil: so android only starts once? then i have to do it again?
Dec 04 20:20:05 <nihil> yeah if you want to boot it again
Dec 04 20:20:16 <janrikard> nihil: shouldnt i see something more than a blank screen by now?
Dec 04 20:20:29 <nihil> you should
Dec 04 20:20:41 <nihil> is the aux led blinking? 
Dec 04 20:20:59 <janrikard> nihil: no
Dec 04 20:21:03 <nihil> do you have sd card setuped?
Dec 04 20:21:19 <janrikard> nihil: yes
Dec 04 20:21:48 <nihil> mhm weird 
Dec 04 20:22:47 <janrikard> nihil: i probably did something wrong, i try agian from the top
Dec 04 20:23:04 <nihil> maybe 
Dec 04 21:12:58 <igor321> damn the android browser kicks so much ass
Dec 04 21:46:49 <davi> phone hardware specification: http://www.17lamp.net/blog/editor/hardware/20081202120732
Dec 04 21:47:01 <davi>   Display -- 2.8-inch touchscreen display with 320 x 240 resolution
Dec 04 21:47:05 <davi>     :P
Dec 04 21:47:57 <davi>  
Dec 04 21:48:03 <davi> Openmoko:  2.8" VGA (480x640) VGA Screen
Dec 04 21:48:03 <SpeedEvil>  
Dec 04 22:07:55 <pieterc> I just performed rm -rf *
Dec 04 22:07:59 <pieterc> I feel cool ...
Dec 04 22:09:29 <henk> when in uboot and connected via usb shouldnt dfu-util -l list all partitions in flash like in http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo_FreeRunner_partitions? mine only shows this: Found Runtime: [0x1d50:0x5119] devnum=4, cfg=0, intf=2, alt=0, name="USB Device Firmware Upgrade"
Dec 04 22:09:49 <Fougner> eyyyy
Dec 04 22:10:33 <Fougner|Kassel> what up guys? =)
Dec 04 22:12:42 <pieterc> hey... I got a gta02 but i put m GTA01 battery in it... Is it possible that got something to do with (in any distro) the battery state always being 0% ?
Dec 04 22:14:09 <mwester> pieterc:  yes
Dec 04 22:14:27 <pieterc> using the GTA01 battery won't harm my FR right?
Dec 04 22:15:01 <Fougner|Kassel> pieterc, if it's 3.7V, nope =)
Dec 04 22:15:05 <mwester> Won't harm
Dec 04 22:15:24 <pieterc> pieterc is happy again
Dec 04 22:15:28 <pieterc> ;)
Dec 04 22:15:32 <Gottox> Fougner|Kassel: you're from kassel?
Dec 04 22:15:38 <Arg0naut> sim card was detected by freerunner before, but isn't being detected now, any ideas
Dec 04 22:15:47 <pieterc> Kassel in Belgium? ;)
Dec 04 22:15:53 <Fougner|Kassel> Gottox, nope, I'm just here tonight =(
Dec 04 22:16:00 <Gottox> Germany?
Dec 04 22:16:07 <Fougner|Kassel> no, Sweden =)
Dec 04 22:17:14 <Gottox> you're ip says something different :)
Dec 04 22:17:58 <henk> he is from sweden, but is in kassel atm... as far as i got it.
Dec 04 22:18:11 <henk> kassel germany, not kassel sweden ;)
Dec 04 22:18:54 <Gottox> ah, k. I'm living in Kassel. was just curious.
Dec 04 22:21:19 <Fougner|Kassel> Gottox, Kassel DE?
Dec 04 22:21:30 <pieterc> what does GTA stand for?
Dec 04 22:21:31 <pieterc> atually;)
Dec 04 22:21:32 <Gottox> sure :)
Dec 04 22:21:33 <pieterc> just wondering
Dec 04 22:21:37 <Fougner|Kassel> Grand Theft Auto ;)
Dec 04 22:21:41 <pieterc> su ;)
Dec 04 22:21:49 <Fougner|Kassel> Gottox, cool, where?
Dec 04 22:22:00 <pieterc> I was about the say, the first one to tell me grand heft will be punished ;)
Dec 04 22:22:14 <Fougner|Kassel> pieterc, then PUNISH ME MUHAHAH =D
Dec 04 22:22:21 <Fougner|Kassel> apt defend Fougner|Kassel 
Dec 04 22:22:22 * apt jumps in front of Fougner|Kassel, taking all insults, violence and anything else negative thrown toward Fougner|Kassel so that Fougner|Kassel may live on in peace and quiet
Dec 04 22:22:42 <pieterc> haha
Dec 04 22:22:49 <pieterc> apt -get remove
Dec 04 22:23:22 <Gottox> Fougner|Kassel: close to the campus at Hollaendischen Platz.
Dec 04 22:23:44 <pieterc> Is there also a Belgien Platz?
Dec 04 22:23:50 <pieterc> oder Belgishen
Dec 04 22:24:05 <pieterc> ;)
Dec 04 22:24:33 <fale> hi
Dec 04 22:24:37 <fale> is known when 2008.10 will be released?
Dec 04 22:24:45 <pieterc>     * Question: the abbreviation GTA stands for?
Dec 04 22:24:45 <pieterc>     * Answer: Probably, It stands for Generic Telephone Appliance
Dec 04 22:24:45 <pieterc>     * Answer: According to wikipedia, it stands for GNU Telephony Appliance--Benjamin 22:51, 17 August 2008 (UTC) 
Dec 04 22:25:07 <henk> uhm? .10? what timezone are you in?
Dec 04 22:25:18 <pieterc> .12 you mean? ;)
Dec 04 22:25:36 <Fougner|Kassel> Gottox, uhm, I know where that is.. NOT :P We're staying close to IKEA .. leaving tomorrow
Dec 04 22:25:53 <Gottox> ah, "little sweden" :P
Dec 04 22:25:54 <fale> henk: on the web site there is written that next version will be 2008.10
Dec 04 22:26:20 <henk> and you believe that?
Dec 04 22:26:29 <pieterc> fale: it's a wiki... you should change it;)
Dec 04 22:26:29 <Fougner|Kassel> Gottox, haha so that's what you call it? xD
Dec 04 22:26:38 <fale> henk: mainly I have no clue about this
Dec 04 22:26:58 <fale> pieterc: what is the right info?
Dec 04 22:27:07 <henk> fale: where does that stand btw? i haven't seen that, but i'm rather new too...
Dec 04 22:27:27 <Fougner|Kassel> fale, apparently, .10 is NOT correct =)
Dec 04 22:27:35 <fale> http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Om_2008.9_Update#What.27s_Next.3F
Dec 04 22:27:38 <pieterc> fale: according to the mailinglist i guess 2008.12 will be the new release and in my opinion it will be released around X mass ;)
Dec 04 22:28:00 <fale> I see
Dec 04 22:28:04 <Fougner|Kassel> apt goodnight
Dec 04 22:28:05 <apt> Have a goodnight!
Dec 04 22:28:29 <fale> pieterc: I have heard some while ago that they wanted to merge FSO and ASU... it had been made?
Dec 04 22:29:10 <Gottox> not in general, I was curious that you're staying just next to ikea :)
Dec 04 22:29:28 <dent> fale: huh? this might have been the initial motivation behind SHR, afaik
Dec 04 22:29:57 <dent> but nowadays it's more like a FSO front-end, at least in my poor understanding
Dec 04 22:30:30 <dent> ping Kassel :)
Dec 04 22:30:39 <Gottox> pong
Dec 04 22:30:44 <dent> good :)
Dec 04 22:30:54 <Gottox> still alive :)
Dec 04 22:31:12 <dent> I was in Goettingen a few days ago, AFAIK it's close to Kassel
Dec 04 22:31:14 <pieterc> fale: no idea... I know there were intentions.. but that's all i know
Dec 04 22:31:25 <dent> at least I guess the train from Gotty goes either to Hannover or Kassel
Dec 04 22:31:26 <fale> pieterc: I see
Dec 04 22:31:38 <pieterc> fale: i guess i do not know much more than you do ;)
Dec 04 22:31:47 <fale> pieterc: which is, in your opinion the most advanced distro?
Dec 04 22:31:48 <Gottox> dent: yea, about 30minutes with ICE.
Dec 04 22:32:20 <dent> Gottox: the cold weather made me suffer loads of WSOD
Dec 04 22:32:35 <pieterc> fale: why you're asking me? ;) What do you mean with advanced? Usability as a daily phone, or has the most features?
Dec 04 22:32:57 <pieterc> fale: I'd say OM2008.9 as stable release with most features, and SHR most usable as daily phone...
Dec 04 22:33:20 * fale is going to check SHR
Dec 04 22:33:21 <pieterc> fale: i meant... FDOM based on OM2008.9
Dec 04 22:33:28 <fale> FDOM?
Dec 04 22:33:34 <pieterc> Fat and Dirty Open Moko
Dec 04 22:33:46 <Gottox> poor dent... :)
Dec 04 22:33:47 <pieterc> it's OM2008.9 with many applications preinstalled
Dec 04 22:33:53 <pieterc> and many configuration done
Dec 04 22:34:02 <pieterc> It's pretty sweet to see what the phone actually can do
Dec 04 22:34:22 <pieterc> but it runs quite slow and takes ages to boot
Dec 04 22:34:27 <fale> pieterc: and can I install more than one distro in the same time?
Dec 04 22:34:32 <pieterc> but that will be solved at the 2008.11
Dec 04 22:34:35 <pieterc> 12 i meant
Dec 04 22:34:44 <fale> cool
Dec 04 22:35:00 <pieterc> sure, on the SD card... But it's a hard procedure... you should check the wiki
Dec 04 22:35:13 <pieterc> you'll have to unpack the rootfs and stuff
Dec 04 22:35:44 <fale> that's not very cool
Dec 04 22:35:48 <fale> thx anyway
Dec 04 22:35:57 <Arg0naut> anyone ever have the problem where it stops detecting your sim card?
Dec 04 22:36:04 <tifereth> anyone can explain me how to build opkg to create opkg packages?
Dec 04 22:37:58 <fale> can I install tangoGPS in Qtopia?
Dec 04 22:38:51 <davi> Are there VGA displays but with higher size, > 2.8" ?
Dec 04 22:39:11 <davi> It would be cool use it for the next Openmoko phone model
Dec 04 22:39:35 <SpeedEvil> Yes.
Dec 04 22:39:47 <SpeedEvil> I've got a 7.8" one in my new device that I want OM on.
Dec 04 22:40:02 <davi> URL?
Dec 04 22:40:23 <pieterc> fale: on the new one you can i gues... never tried it because the new release of qtopia isn't that good i heared
Dec 04 22:40:30 <pieterc> i HURD
Dec 04 22:40:36 <zash> 4" wide would be nice
Dec 04 22:40:46 <davi> 4" would be great!
Dec 04 22:41:00 <davi> I Hurd
Dec 04 22:41:16 <dent> hurd on the FR? :-P
Dec 04 22:41:24 <pieterc> It's possible ;)
Dec 04 22:41:39 <fale> pieterc: I'm using qtopia at the moment and is not so bad
Dec 04 22:41:43 <mwester> fale:  perhaps, but it wouldn't run.
Dec 04 22:42:07 <fale> mwester: I see... and is there a gps app for qtextended?
Dec 04 22:42:17 <SpeedEvil> davi: http://www.rapidonline.com/Tools-Fasteners-Production-Equipment/Test-Equipment/Oscilloscopes/PDS-Series-2-channel-colour-oscilloscopes/80709
Dec 04 22:42:43 <mwester> qt extended has a demo app that shows you where you are currently, but it is really nothing more than a demo.
Dec 04 22:43:17 <fale> mwester: I tryied it... nad only looks for the satellites... it never find them
Dec 04 22:43:33 <davi> Thanks SpeedEvil.  So 7.8in, 640 x 480 colour display could be possible.
Dec 04 22:43:40 <SpeedEvil> Sure.
Dec 04 22:43:48 <SpeedEvil> that's probably about the common limit though
Dec 04 22:44:06 <anno^da_> What is the easiest way to implement an app waiting for missed calls and setting a LED notification. Is it the right way to start a service and register in this service a BroadcastReceiver waiting for the missed call? Or is there an easier way?
Dec 04 22:44:31 <SpeedEvil> displays larger than that tend to rise in resolution
Dec 04 22:44:38 <davi> anyway, 4" would be maybe the best one for a phone + portable computer.
Dec 04 22:44:50 * anno^da_ wrong channel :)
Dec 04 22:45:21 <fale> mwester: by the way... I think that a big problem of qtextended is the lackness of software in the feeds... do you think that if I pack a software I can put it in the feed? (maybe sending it to someone)
Dec 04 23:21:14 <Dave> raster.
Dec 04 23:21:57 <jonkristian> dave.
Dec 04 23:22:04 <jonkristian> dr. D
Dec 04 23:22:24 <Dave> YES
Dec 04 23:23:14 <Dave> Yeah, I was just looking through the holiday ads only to become dissatisfied... realizing that even the best touchscreen phones currently being offered (on the market), are total crap.
Dec 04 23:23:17 <mwester> DestructoDave.
Dec 04 23:23:26 <Dave> So much for "technologically advanced."
Dec 04 23:23:40 <jonkristian> :/
Dec 04 23:24:03 <Sargun> Are there any other benefits of moko10 than the 3G sim?
Dec 04 23:24:40 <Dave> Sargun, it has mystical fixing properties with unknown potential?
Dec 04 23:24:42 <raster> Dave:  booo
Dec 04 23:24:44 <mwester> smoother, more silky skin, pleasant spring scent...
Dec 04 23:24:53 <Dave> Raster: Halloween's over.
Dec 04 23:25:06 * mwester wonders if that's right, or if has moko10 confused with bath soap once again. :(
Dec 04 23:25:07 <Dave> Take off your mask.
Dec 04 23:25:16 <raster> Dave:  doesn't mean i'm not scary :)
Dec 04 23:25:18 <Dave> Mwester - Fuck yeah, shower radio!
Dec 04 23:25:25 <Dave> Raster, haha, indeed.
Dec 04 23:25:30 <mwester> pool toy.
Dec 04 23:25:40 <Dave> Dude, if ONLY it did those things.
Dec 04 23:25:51 <Dave> Then at least it'd have one good, well-defined use :)
Dec 04 23:26:09 <Tig|> Dave are you trying to flog your excess FRs as pool toys AGAIN? :P
Dec 04 23:26:29 <mwester> soap-on-a-rope, moko-on-a-rope... almost indistinguishable.
Dec 04 23:26:41 <Dave> :D
Dec 04 23:26:50 <mwester> (except openmoko calls is a "lanyard")
Dec 04 23:26:59 <Dave> Actually, the biggest pull has been the moko as an accidental usb mouse
Dec 04 23:26:59 <Dave> :\
Dec 04 23:27:04 <Dave> IT LOOKS EXACTLY THE SAME
Dec 04 23:27:08 <Dave> WHY DOES IT NOT FUNCTION AS SO
Dec 04 23:27:12 <mwester> And works about the same too
Dec 04 23:27:13 <Dave> It's a trap!
Dec 04 23:27:27 <Dave> Mwester, if only I could take it in the shower :)
Dec 04 23:27:27 * Tig| phones Rocket from the Crypt and tells them there is an advertising opp with their name on it :)
Dec 04 23:27:40 <mwester> WSoD vs soap in your eyes -- both blind you.
Dec 04 23:27:51 <Tig|> Dave: it will work when the sw is finished :P
Dec 04 23:28:20 <mwester> Get Smart II: instead of the "shoe phone" its the "soap phone"
Dec 04 23:29:56 <Dave> :D
Dec 04 23:30:08 <Tig|> mwester: noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo  they will be banned from aircraft
Dec 04 23:30:10 <Dave> Walk into the light...
Dec 04 23:30:37 <Dave> I can see it now... CNN: FIRST SUCCESSFUL OPEN SOURCE PHONE BRINGS DOWN AIRCRAFT.
Dec 04 23:30:39 <_charly_> mwester: but there's a way to distinguish the soap from the wsod-moko: put it in water, when it stops blinding you it was the freerunner :)
Dec 04 23:30:51 <mwester> hehe!
Dec 04 23:31:15 <Dave> Will it float!?
Dec 04 23:31:17 <Dave> :D
Dec 04 23:31:21 <Dave> The best test of all!
Dec 04 23:32:19 <Tig|> Will it blend? :P
Dec 04 23:32:51 <_charly_> Tig|: exactly what i thought ;)
Dec 04 23:33:12 * jonkristian is pulling an all-nighter
Dec 04 23:33:16 <Dave> Of course it blends, we've seen moko-smoothe
Dec 04 23:33:26 * Dave high-fives jonkristian
Dec 04 23:33:28 <Tig|> Actually will it float is the best.... if it floats it must have a binary blob if it sinks then it was obviously the worlds greatest phone that no longer works :P
Dec 04 23:33:33 <Dave> jonkristian, the night just started.
Dec 04 23:33:49 <Dave> Tig, see! :)
Dec 04 23:33:58 <Tig|> I misread that as Dave pulls jonkristian
Dec 04 23:34:34 <Tig|> apologies all this wine is nice and I had to go to ikea so trying to blot out the memory
Dec 04 23:36:15 <mwester> Ikea?  Ouch. :(
Dec 04 23:37:15 <mwester> You didn't have to actually buy anything there, did you?
Dec 04 23:37:33 <Tig|> I got out lightly only spent £200 
Dec 04 23:38:03 <mwester> Are the stores there also painted garish yellow and blue?
Dec 04 23:38:29 <Tig|> well they are made from yellow plastic and blue metal
Dec 04 23:38:31 * SpeedEvil had an expensive day today too.
Dec 04 23:38:44 <SpeedEvil> Quite a lot of wood delivered.
Dec 04 23:38:48 <Tig|> SpeedEvil: a car or house?
Dec 04 23:39:05 <SpeedEvil> Tig|: just enough to finish off mostly my house insulation.
Dec 04 23:39:30 <Tig|> SpeedEvil: where are you based?
Dec 04 23:39:35 <SpeedEvil> Scotland
Dec 04 23:39:49 <SpeedEvil> http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=56.2097&lon=-3.1028&zoom=13&layers=00B0FTF
Dec 04 23:39:50 <Tig|> did they cut the vat on it?
Dec 04 23:39:56 <SpeedEvil> Hmm.
Dec 04 23:40:16 <_charly_> if we ikea would produce the freerunner we would get all parts of it separately, and after we finished assembling all those parts we will get few screws left, and noone would know where these belong to...
Dec 04 23:40:31 <jonkristian> :o
Dec 04 23:40:44 <Tig|> SpeedEvil: a very well mapped area,  has one been out with the gps? :)
Dec 04 23:40:48 <SpeedEvil> yes
Dec 04 23:41:02 <SpeedEvil> Tig|: actually, it looks better than it is due to all teh contours.
Dec 04 23:41:13 <SpeedEvil> Tig|: still a fair bit to do.
Dec 04 23:41:19 <Tig|> _charly_: sounds like a buildhost to me :)
Dec 04 23:41:32 <_charly_> hehe :)
Dec 04 23:42:16 <_charly_> buildhost.ikea.se :)
Dec 04 23:42:22 <Tig|> eeek
Dec 04 23:44:12 <Tig|> the swedish arm of ikea are especially evil,  I read somewhere they were making an ikea store with a hotel attached so you could shop for more than one day!   oddly enough I also read it had a honeymoon suite....  I am sure we can all come up with our own jokes about that
Dec 04 23:44:29 <SpeedEvil> google ikea riot
Dec 04 23:44:36 <SpeedEvil> Though nobody got killed
Dec 04 23:44:54 <cjb> Ikea is pretty evil in general.  It's the world's largest "non-profit".
Dec 04 23:45:05 <Tig|> unlike walmart the other week :( 
Dec 04 23:45:18 <Tig|> SpeedEvil: that was in london they are all nuts there
Dec 04 23:45:44 <Tig|> cjb: HTF do they get classed as non-profit?
Dec 04 23:46:33 <mwester> They're a cult?
Dec 04 23:49:02 <SpeedEvil> http://www.economist.com/business/PrinterFriendly.cfm?story_id=6919139
Dec 04 23:49:42 <Dave> Who's non-profit?
Dec 04 23:49:48 <SpeedEvil> ikea
Dec 04 23:49:59 <SpeedEvil> The parent for all IKEA companiesthe operator of 207 of the 235 worldwide IKEA storesis Ingka Holding, a private Dutch-registered company. Ingka Holding, in turn, belongs entirely to Stichting Ingka Foundation. This is a Dutch-registered, tax-exempt, non-profit-making legal entity, which was given the shares of Mr Kamprad in 1982. Stichtingen, or foundations, are the most common form of not-for-profit organisation in the Netherlands; tens of thous
Dec 04 23:50:22 <cjb> Dave: it's just a charity that really really wants to help people to get nice furniture.
Dec 04 23:50:40 <cjb> oh, and it happens to have made more money than any other charity does.  who knew!
Dec 04 23:50:59 <Dave> Well what I was wondering is either they're actually charitable or just hiding behind it for tax shelter.
Dec 04 23:51:05 <cjb> tax shelter.
Dec 04 23:51:10 <Dave> fuck 'em then
Dec 04 23:51:14 <Dave> BASTARDS
Dec 04 23:51:19 <SpeedEvil> damn that's clever.
Dec 04 23:51:23 <Dave> Then again, they're just like us then :)
Dec 04 23:51:26 <Dave> hahaha
Dec 04 23:51:30 <Dave> US
Dec 04 23:51:39 <_charly_> bastards... without killing kenny
Dec 04 23:51:44 <Dave> Yeah
Dec 04 23:53:19 <SpeedEvil> Legally, that's genius.
Dec 04 23:53:59 <rooly|stupidcomp> i wonder...
Dec 04 23:54:40 <rooly|stupidcomp> maybe i'll start the Rooly Foundation, a non-profit tax-exempt orginization that spends all of my money for me
Dec 04 23:55:06 <rooly|stupidcomp> on me, of course
Dec 04 23:55:09 <mwester> Ask Bill and Hillary Clinton for advise on how to do *exactly* that.
Dec 04 23:55:22 <rooly|stupidcomp> that stupid ass hat
Dec 04 23:55:24 <rooly|stupidcomp> taking my nick
Dec 04 23:55:50 <mwester> Hmm. What an unruly person.
Dec 04 23:55:51 <mwester> :p
Dec 04 23:56:12 <rooly> hah, i've never heard that one before
Dec 04 23:58:28 <pieterc> wow
Dec 04 23:58:34 <pieterc> the new SHR rly kicks ass
Dec 04 23:59:20 <sicu> hmmm .. there's a new one pieterc ?
Dec 04 23:59:35 <pieterc> 27 november one
Dec 04 23:59:43 <pieterc> I did not test it yet;)
Dec 04 23:59:55 <sicu> ahh ... stop getting my hopes up
Dec 04 23:59:58 * _charly_ is still waiting for the FSO feeds to update again :/
Dec 05 00:00:01 <pieterc> sry ;)
Dec 05 00:00:22 <sicu> even though i knew quickdev wouldn't finish his stuff until this weekend :/
Dec 05 00:02:35 <_charly_> last build was on nov 15
Dec 05 00:03:14 <_charly_> for gta02
Dec 05 01:11:00 <linuxxr> they are building something:)
Dec 05 01:11:48 <linuxxr> maybe they all  west to the alps to party  
Dec 05 01:11:57 <linuxxr> went*
Dec 05 01:57:33 <Sargun> How long until GTA03?
Dec 05 02:05:16 <mwester> The longer the better.
Dec 05 02:10:10 <Sargun> I want to get rid of Glamo.
Dec 05 02:15:54 <raster> Sargun_Screen: join the glamo-haters club :)
Dec 05 02:16:08 <Dave> :D
Dec 05 02:16:17 <Dave> Is there a #channel for that?
Dec 05 02:16:18 <raster> ok
Dec 05 02:16:27 <raster> wtf is e doing spinning with cpu on the wizard screen
Dec 05 02:26:40 <mwester> e is doing what every graphical thing does: waste cpu cycles for the sole purpose of "eye candy".
Dec 05 02:26:48 <mwester> :p
Dec 05 02:33:24 * _charly_ waits for the gta04 to buy his next openmoko
Dec 05 02:35:30 <raster> mwester: candy is yummy
Dec 05 02:35:31 <raster> :)
Dec 05 02:35:34 <sebbs> are there any indications at all that openmoko would ever release a keyboard on the device?
Dec 05 02:35:37 <raster> mwester:  and e doesnt need to
Dec 05 02:35:41 <raster> use the xrender engine
Dec 05 02:35:49 <raster> if... it was possible to accelerate xrender
Dec 05 02:35:56 <raster> but in the end - people LIKE eye candy
Dec 05 02:36:04 <sebbs> hey are there mini usb keyboards?
Dec 05 02:36:07 <raster> it makes a device or piece of software nicer to use
Dec 05 02:36:11 <raster> pretty simple
Dec 05 02:36:32 <raster> most people care about how something looks and feels
Dec 05 02:36:36 <raster> not just that it solely works
Dec 05 02:36:46 <raster> sebbs:  none.
Dec 05 02:37:06 <_charly_> i like it as pure as possible, no useless animations, no useless graphics... but i know, there are also eye-candy-likers out there :)
Dec 05 02:37:13 <raster> chances of a om phone with a kbd is pretyt low any time in the next year or 2
Dec 05 02:37:27 <raster> _charly_: there are more candy lovers than non
Dec 05 02:37:32 <raster> just that the uber nerds
Dec 05 02:37:37 <raster> who love to fuck with kernls
Dec 05 02:37:45 <raster> and are more concerned with beauty of code structure
Dec 05 02:38:27 <raster> generally tend to lean to "i hate candy - give my cpu cycles so i can expend it on wasting cycles in a scripting language interpreter like python"
Dec 05 02:42:27 <_charly_> well... i don't like python, but i don't speak C. i'm still planning to learn it, just have no time for it :(
Dec 05 02:42:46 <raster> if i take my pick
Dec 05 02:42:52 <raster> i'd rather give something that users like
Dec 05 02:42:55 <raster> and spend cpu on it
Dec 05 02:43:00 <raster> than do something developers like
Dec 05 02:43:04 <raster> and spend cycles on it
Dec 05 02:43:21 <raster> as a user doesnt care what the langauge or engine is
Dec 05 02:43:28 <raster> they care that they enjoy using their device
Dec 05 02:43:35 <raster> this means that it does what they need/want
Dec 05 02:43:38 <raster> does it fast
Dec 05 02:43:41 <raster> and reliably
Dec 05 02:43:46 <raster> and looks/feels good while doing it
Dec 05 02:45:23 <mwester> raster:  I know --- people *like* eye-candy, hence I make it part of my mission to try my best to keep at least one project from getting lost in "bling".  Thank goodness that the SHR team is well-grounded.
Dec 05 02:45:56 <Dave> :]
Dec 05 02:46:01 <Dave> Yeah, thankfully.
Dec 05 02:46:09 <Dave> Though I do think that illume is inherently "sexy" ;)
Dec 05 02:46:19 <Dave> We can thank your eye for that, Mr. Raster.
Dec 05 02:46:39 <_charly_> users care about direct responses of a device, and no useless wait times. and therefor i'm a typical user. i just don't need all that eye candy stuff (which is nice indeed, but well... if you see it all the time you start taking less care of it)
Dec 05 02:47:40 <raster> somehoiw people always seem to think that candy means you have to wait
Dec 05 02:47:50 <raster> u know that most candy is filling in a waiting gap anyway?
Dec 05 02:48:06 <raster> ie normally u'd be just sitting there dumbly for seconds wondering if the thing is still alive
Dec 05 02:49:41 <_charly_> i don't think that candy means waiting. i just don't need that candy stuff, and most times i don't want it
Dec 05 02:51:27 <_charly_> but everyone wants different stuff, and open source gives you all the possibilities to get what you want :)
Dec 05 02:58:09 <mwester> raster: in a *properly* designed device, with CPU and GPU power that is _balanced_, you are correct -- in fact, in such a case, it can be argued that effects like bouncing windows or scrolling can actually serve to distract the user and make percieved responsiveness feel better.  Alas, it is not true that the GTA02, and to a lesser extent the GTA01 can do graphics without slowing the host.
Dec 05 02:58:37 <raster> correct
Dec 05 02:58:45 <raster> though - it depends
Dec 05 02:58:55 <raster> if you spend 20% of the cpu to draw some animation
Dec 05 02:59:02 <raster> lets say while starting a process
Dec 05 02:59:08 <raster> (whihc can take several seconds)
Dec 05 02:59:19 <raster> u basically may slow down the load by 20%
Dec 05 02:59:20 <raster> but
Dec 05 02:59:32 <raster> psychologically users find it feels faster
Dec 05 02:59:39 <raster> as the thing doesn freeze while it launches
Dec 05 02:59:48 <raster> even tho on a stopwatch it takes less time
Dec 05 02:59:53 <raster> they feel its less responsive
Dec 05 02:59:55 <mwester> exactly.
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Fri Dec 05 02:59:58 2008