**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Fri Dec 05 02:59:58 2008
Dec 05 03:00:09 <mwester> goes back to the 1980's actually.
Dec 05 03:00:15 <raster> eye candy is there to keep your users HAPPY
Dec 05 03:00:19 <raster> while u do something
Dec 05 03:00:28 <raster> users are impatient picky fuckers
Dec 05 03:00:29 <raster> :)
Dec 05 03:00:45 <raster> the problem is the gta02 is a real exception in things
Dec 05 03:00:49 <raster> its got a weenie video bus
Dec 05 03:00:53 <raster> ok-ish processor
Dec 05 03:00:58 <raster> and a fuckload of pixels to fill
Dec 05 03:01:03 <raster> it totally is out of line
Dec 05 03:01:16 <raster> in fact the general trend has been pretyt fat cpu's and pipes to video
Dec 05 03:01:20 <raster> no acceleration
Dec 05 03:01:26 <raster> so its an all-cpu show
Dec 05 03:01:51 <raster> or you ghave a relatively new trend of fairly beefy gfx cores
Dec 05 03:01:57 <raster> of whihc glamo is definitely not one
Dec 05 03:01:58 <mwester> Yep.  That's why things like the animated bootsplash have got to go.
Dec 05 03:02:11 <raster> actually i found what the problem was
Dec 05 03:02:14 <raster> and its fixed
Dec 05 03:02:25 <raster> 1. yes - the glowing thing really ate about 20% cpu
Dec 05 03:02:29 <raster> for the glowing end of the bar
Dec 05 03:02:36 <mwester> eye candy
Dec 05 03:02:43 <mwester> ;) and not really necessary -- 
Dec 05 03:02:43 <raster> 2. very odd but flushing the unix sockets was chewing cpu
Dec 05 03:02:49 <raster> that ate another 20% cpu
Dec 05 03:02:53 <mwester> doesn't surprise me
Dec 05 03:03:01 <raster> i simplified it
Dec 05 03:03:17 <raster> and basically tyhe only cost is startup and updating the progresas bar when process happens
Dec 05 03:03:24 <raster> whihc is now fairly minimal
Dec 05 03:03:34 <raster> fontconfig still takes forveer to generate initial caches
Dec 05 03:03:44 <raster> but conce done its up in a few seconds
Dec 05 03:03:53 <raster> on my treo650 its up in about 2 secs
Dec 05 03:04:06 <raster> freerunner takes about 6
Dec 05 03:04:24 <mwester> Frankly, I think the real answer to a lot of this is a compromise in screen resolution.  We only need the 1 million x 500 thousand pixels resolution at a few points in time; if the glamo spent most of its time (liek the bootsplash time, for example) in 320x240, that's 1/4 the amount of data to move around.
Dec 05 03:04:45 <mwester> But X sucks at changing resolution.
Dec 05 03:04:46 <raster> mwester:  agreed
Dec 05 03:04:55 <Staticwave_Ace> kernel modesettting
Dec 05 03:04:56 <raster> inb fact thats why i asked a while back about droppoing to qvga
Dec 05 03:05:06 <raster> as i saw that it possibly isnt the best solution
Dec 05 03:05:17 <raster> Staticwave_Ace: wont help
Dec 05 03:05:20 <raster> its not really x
Dec 05 03:05:22 <raster> more than x chAZNges
Dec 05 03:05:25 <raster> then N clients get events
Dec 05 03:05:32 <raster> then everyone goes thru a redraw process hammering things
Dec 05 03:05:40 <raster> if u had a compositor it could be slick
Dec 05 03:06:05 <raster> but as such the 2442 in  the gta02 really wasnt intended for a vga device
Dec 05 03:06:07 <raster> same with glamo
Dec 05 03:06:11 <raster> its at the upper limit
Dec 05 03:06:22 <raster> its somethign that glamo only in theory supports
Dec 05 03:06:24 <raster> and happens to
Dec 05 03:06:28 <raster> but was never intended for
Dec 05 03:06:34 <raster> and thats direct from its designers
Dec 05 03:06:54 <raster> imho one of the best things that could have been done would be use a 3" 272x480 screen
Dec 05 03:07:00 <raster> 1/3 the pixels
Dec 05 03:07:16 <raster> but still looks really nice
Dec 05 03:07:44 <mwester> N800 is very usable -- what's that resolution
Dec 05 03:07:46 <mwester> ?
Dec 05 03:07:56 <Staticwave_Ace> 800x400 or somesuch
Dec 05 03:08:14 <raster> 800x480
Dec 05 03:08:26 <raster> 272x480@3"is still 218dpi
Dec 05 03:08:37 <raster> thats pretty much still beyond whats needed
Dec 05 03:08:41 <Staticwave_Ace> it was either the n800 or the freerunner, and I've got a freerunner
Dec 05 03:08:48 * mwester has both
Dec 05 03:08:51 <linuxxr> yay
Dec 05 03:08:57 <raster> imho about 180-200dpi is perfect for devices like phones at the distances held/used
Dec 05 03:09:03 <mwester> and finds the screen on the FR is too small to be easy to read.
Dec 05 03:09:06 <raster> anyway
Dec 05 03:09:10 <raster> its done and finished
Dec 05 03:09:13 <mwester> especially on a train or other moving object.
Dec 05 03:09:19 <raster> yeah
Dec 05 03:09:24 <raster> if u try and "use" the dpi
Dec 05 03:09:30 <raster> with tiny fonts to stick lots of content on
Dec 05 03:09:38 <raster> it becomes incredibly hard to use "in real life"
Dec 05 03:09:46 <raster> sure it looks hyper-smooth
Dec 05 03:09:50 <mwester> But images are absolutely incredible on the FR....
Dec 05 03:09:56 <raster> but there is a non-trivial cost to do that
Dec 05 03:10:00 <raster> yeah
Dec 05 03:10:10 <raster> but... images agaoin can suffer dpi loss with very little problem
Dec 05 03:10:17 <raster> text is a bigger problem
Dec 05 03:10:23 <raster> but to make it usabel u up the font size anyway
Dec 05 03:10:32 <raster> aaaany way
Dec 05 03:10:49 <raster> a more powerful cpu+gpu would handle vga fine
Dec 05 03:10:55 <raster> eg an omap 3530
Dec 05 03:11:00 <raster> that thing is fairly beefy
Dec 05 03:11:08 <raster> even without the gfx core.
Dec 05 04:02:27 <linuxxr> wassa
Dec 05 04:29:27 <vininim> just some random observation: either gps chip or  tangogps+gpsd processing produces a lot of heat
Dec 05 04:30:27 <raster> mmmmm
Dec 05 04:30:28 <raster> heat
Dec 05 04:31:09 <raster> hmm
Dec 05 04:31:16 <raster> how to best canonicalise a phone number
Dec 05 04:31:22 <raster> for example
Dec 05 04:32:12 <raster> +61 413 123 456 == +61413123456 == 001161413123456 == 0413123456 (when called locally within the +61 country code)
Dec 05 04:34:09 <raster> it seems i really need a database of all intl dial codes
Dec 05 04:38:27 <vininim> also there are some countries with 0 + region + 8 numbers.
Dec 05 04:55:46 <raster> yeah
Dec 05 04:55:47 <raster> its a mess
Dec 05 04:55:59 <raster> who wants to kill telcos for having created such a schmozzle?
Dec 05 05:06:41 <mwester> it's the governments, raster -- every government sees a standard as a dilution of their power, which is why the phone numbers are screwed up, why the UK doesn't use the Euro, and a whole lot of other ridiculous things.
Dec 05 05:07:03 <raster> pffft
Dec 05 05:07:06 <raster> kill them all
Dec 05 05:07:08 <mwester> And it's also the reason why the US doesn't do metric.
Dec 05 05:07:13 <cjb> mwester: to be fair, the Euro *would* be a dilution of the UK's power ;-)
Dec 05 05:07:56 <mwester> Of course.  And adopting the metric system would be a dilution of the US special interests, as represented by machinists unions, etc.
Dec 05 05:08:36 <raster> it'd make life sane
Dec 05 05:08:39 <raster> and save a shuttle or 2
Dec 05 05:09:15 <mwester> So it amounts to an invisible tarriff, and just another way of government impeding global competition and a healthy, free exchange of ideas and commerce.
Dec 05 05:10:57 <raster> pfft
Dec 05 05:10:59 <raster> is what i say
Dec 05 05:11:00 <raster> pffft
Dec 05 05:11:21 <raster> someone can finihs my telephone numebr canonicaliser with all the relevant data
Dec 05 05:15:06 <vishal> hello friends i updated my neo with 2008.9 release and now when i switch it on  kernel boots but at xserver start up i don get anything
Dec 05 05:15:57 <raster> it hates you
Dec 05 05:16:21 <vishal> raster what should i do now :(
Dec 05 05:19:06 <raster> cry
Dec 05 05:19:09 <raster> stop your feet
Dec 05 05:19:19 <slaxxin> install shr
Dec 05 05:19:39 <slaxxin> an debian
Dec 05 05:20:41 <slaxxin> debian looks great
Dec 05 05:22:02 <vishal> ok ill try that if i cant get this running again
Dec 05 05:24:59 <slaxxin> did u replace the kernel to?
Dec 05 05:25:07 <slaxxin> maybe thats it
Dec 05 05:28:22 <mwester> forget about the 2008.x stuff.
Dec 05 05:29:39 <mwester> Openmoko is supporting the framework (FSO), which SHR is built upon.  (and Android, of course)
Dec 05 05:30:24 <mwester> 2008.x hasn't had any activity other than some small amount of bug fixing for months now.
Dec 05 05:36:56 <vishal> ok i'll try SHR . . .,slaxxin ya i have replaced everything u-boot kernel and filesystem. it had run fine y'day i had left it in suspended mode but today morning it din work and started giving this problem
Dec 05 05:41:05 <slaxxin> well maybe 2008.9 is what u need
Dec 05 05:41:45 <slaxxin> if u a dev
Dec 05 05:43:21 <kd8ikt> wait what android will use fso?
Dec 05 05:45:20 <raster> eeekshellent
Dec 05 05:45:21 <raster> ok
Dec 05 05:45:27 <raster> now.. i n4eed a photo widget
Dec 05 05:46:25 <kd8ikt> speaking of wich i see new android images http://people.openmoko.org/sean_mcneil/  anyone try em yet?
Dec 05 05:47:14 <orospakr> *sigh*, I wish I had a FR rather than a Neo1973.  No Android for me.
Dec 05 05:47:28 <slaxxin> nope
Dec 05 05:47:28 <orospakr> s/had a/had an/
Dec 05 05:47:28 <apt> orospakr meant: *sigh*, I wish I had an FR rather than a Neo1973.  No Android for me.
Dec 05 05:48:00 <kd8ikt> i'll be sayin the same when gta03 is released
Dec 05 05:48:06 <orospakr> http://apcmag.com/breaking_first_australian_android_phone_revealed.htm <-- looks interesting, but nor I or Wikipedia has ever heard of Kogan.
Dec 05 05:48:10 <slaxxin> proly got a keyboard
Dec 05 05:48:49 <raster> it does
Dec 05 05:48:56 <raster> and cheaper than the FR
Dec 05 05:49:13 <raster> and other than the screen... it seems a lot better than the fr
Dec 05 05:58:50 <trupheenix> I need help
Dec 05 05:58:58 <trupheenix> I do a ifconfig usb0 192.168.0.200
Dec 05 05:59:03 <trupheenix> then I get this error SIOCSIFADDR: No such device
Dec 05 05:59:04 <trupheenix> usb0: ERROR while getting interface flags: No such device
Dec 05 05:59:45 <lindi-> trupheenix: the other side is not running gadget driver?
Dec 05 06:00:47 <trupheenix> lindi-: ok 
Dec 05 06:00:48 <daMaestro> orospakr, whoa... the blackberry logo?
Dec 05 06:01:02 <orospakr> daMaestro, huh?
Dec 05 06:01:21 <daMaestro> orospakr, a button on the image of the phone is the blackberry logo
Dec 05 06:01:28 <orospakr> are you serious?
Dec 05 06:01:33 <orospakr> *looks*
Dec 05 06:01:35 <trupheenix> lindi- solution?
Dec 05 06:01:56 <daMaestro> orospakr, and the phone layout is *very* blackberry
Dec 05 06:02:26 <orospakr> wow.  I wonder what Kogan is up to.
Dec 05 06:02:34 <orospakr> They don't appear to be part of the OHA.
Dec 05 06:09:41 <raster> orospakr:  where?
Dec 05 06:09:54 <raster> no bb icon that i can see
Dec 05 06:10:00 <orospakr> raster, I can't see it either
Dec 05 06:10:08 <raster> and they simply have found a chines phone maker who makes phones
Dec 05 06:10:12 <raster> taken an existing model
Dec 05 06:10:16 <raster> had it re-badged
Dec 05 06:10:18 <raster> and shipped to .au
Dec 05 06:10:33 <raster> there are dozens of .cn manufacturers making lots of phones
Dec 05 06:10:40 <raster> a lot of cheap winmo phones
Dec 05 06:10:48 <raster> if u take one of those the hw is pretty much ready to run linux
Dec 05 06:10:52 <raster> just needs some work
Dec 05 06:10:52 <orospakr> ah, that's true.  A lot of chinese phone makers often reuse similar shell designs, which could explain the BBishness.
Dec 05 06:10:55 <raster> and of course userspace
Dec 05 06:10:56 <orospakr> yeah, so I hear.
Dec 05 06:11:07 <raster> the images there are "photoshopped" tho
Dec 05 06:11:10 <raster> not the real thing
Dec 05 06:11:21 <orospakr> yeah, totally.
Dec 05 06:11:41 <raster> but spec-wise is pretty good
Dec 05 06:11:53 <raster> i'll wait until its actually shipping in feb
Dec 05 06:11:55 <trupheenix> lindi-: duh... the problem was due to low battery :)
Dec 05 06:11:55 <raster> and see
Dec 05 06:12:12 <raster> got enouhg to keep me busy
Dec 05 06:17:10 <daMaestro> raster, orospakr http://img70.imageshack.us/my.php?image=agorawideqj1.jpg
Dec 05 06:17:45 <orospakr> heh
Dec 05 06:18:00 <daMaestro> is that not the logo?
Dec 05 06:18:02 <daMaestro> it's on my blackberry
Dec 05 06:20:24 <raster> daMaestro:  no img there
Dec 05 06:20:41 <daMaestro> http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&q=blackberry+logo&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=X&oi=image_result_group&resnum=1&ct=title
Dec 05 06:21:00 <raster> but where is it on the agora?
Dec 05 06:21:10 <daMaestro> i tried circling it
Dec 05 06:21:28 * daMaestro is bleeding packets right now
Dec 05 06:21:34 <daMaestro> hold on (fsking comcast)
Dec 05 06:21:40 <raster> describe where?
Dec 05 06:22:41 <raster> if u mean the key right of the "L" ?
Dec 05 06:22:54 <raster> or on the "W" ?
Dec 05 06:34:49 <daMaestro> raster, orospakr http://www.freeimagehosting.net/image.php?70226d6930.jpg
Dec 05 06:35:17 <raster> wh?
Dec 05 06:35:20 <raster> whihc photo is that
Dec 05 06:35:24 <raster> http://www.kogan.com.au/shop/android-powered-kogan-agora-pro-mobile-phone/
Dec 05 06:35:30 <raster> those just have a --- there
Dec 05 06:35:51 <daMaestro> http://apcmag.com/breaking_first_australian_android_phone_revealed.htm
Dec 05 06:36:18 <raster> seems they fixed the images
Dec 05 06:36:29 <raster> as thge actual retailer's images dont have it
Dec 05 06:36:36 <raster> http://www.kogan.com.au/shop/android-powered-kogan-agora-pro-mobile-phone/
Dec 05 06:36:41 <raster> http://www.kogan.com.au/shop/android-powered-kogan-agora-3G-mobile-phone/
Dec 05 06:36:46 <raster> 2 versions
Dec 05 06:37:29 <daMaestro> k, i didn't look @ the kogan site, just the link i happened to open that orospakr sent
Dec 05 06:37:41 <UndrWater> anything new on the treo?
Dec 05 06:37:41 <raster> one thnig i've learnt
Dec 05 06:37:52 <raster> never really trust "press release" sites
Dec 05 06:37:58 <raster> they either get unfinished stuff early
Dec 05 06:38:06 <raster> or often make shit up themselves just to fill a story
Dec 05 06:38:10 <UndrWater> "i wanna be first!!"
Dec 05 06:38:20 <raster> likely they had images unfinished
Dec 05 06:38:30 <raster> as likely its a generic oem shell
Dec 05 06:38:40 <raster> the android screenshot is 'photoshopped' anyway
Dec 05 06:38:51 <raster> so nall the images are just mockups for marketing
Dec 05 06:39:01 <daMaestro> i still found it funny
Dec 05 06:39:56 <daMaestro> anywho, sorry for the delay. twice now comcast has ~60%+ packet loss around 11pm
Dec 05 06:40:06 <daMaestro> had to reboot the modem (what a hack)
Dec 05 06:40:08 * daMaestro &
Dec 05 06:54:29 <CM_work> Lazy bastards when it comes to the homepages for the Pro and 3G versions
Dec 05 06:54:39 <CM_work> Took a while to figure out the difference :)
Dec 05 07:09:19 <Guest32236> good morning
Dec 05 07:10:30 <kd8ikt> 624mhz cpu
Dec 05 07:10:49 <raster> probably xscale
Dec 05 07:10:55 <raster> but likely very swift
Dec 05 07:11:23 <kd8ikt> why is my freerunner only showing like 200bogo mips
Dec 05 07:11:30 <kd8ikt> shouldnt it be 400?
Dec 05 07:11:32 <raster> all i care about is.. can we reflahs it with an OE build
Dec 05 07:17:24 <kd8ikt> 300hrs standby 0_0
Dec 05 07:18:28 <kd8ikt> so did anyone try the latest android or do i have to?
Dec 05 07:19:02 <kd8ikt> its file creation date is today
Dec 05 07:19:45 <kd8ikt> its a damn shame dfu-util upload never works
Dec 05 07:21:14 <kd8ikt> what can go wrong with dd flash
Dec 05 07:21:44 <kd8ikt> or maybe it sees empty blocks and decides to stop there
Dec 05 07:22:20 <kd8ikt> feel free to jump in on this monologue