**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Tue Dec 16 02:59:57 2008
Dec 16 03:01:05 <nkinkade> Digital_Pioneer: Click on the trip tab.  The bottom part tells you.
Dec 16 03:01:23 <Digital_Pioneer> nkinkade: Nope.'
Dec 16 03:02:14 <nkinkade> It didn't work for me for a while either.  Then about 2 days ago i set the clock and it suddenly started working right at that moment.
Dec 16 03:02:41 <Digital_Pioneer> Is there any kind of command line query I can run on the GPS?
Dec 16 03:03:06 <nkinkade> Theres some framework stuff you can check with cli-framework, but it didn't do me any good.
Dec 16 03:03:18 <nkinkade> Partly because I didn't know how to use it.
Dec 16 03:04:18 <Digital_Pioneer> What does cli-framework do? I can't get any real response from it. When I ctrl-c it says some python stuff, but that's no use...
Dec 16 03:13:07 <Dave> I said what?
Dec 16 03:14:56 <nkinkade> Digital_Pioneer: You exit it with ctrl-d.
Dec 16 03:15:21 <nkinkade> http://totalueberwachung.de/blog/2008/10/14/fso-tutorial-part-1-gps
Dec 16 03:15:48 <nkinkade> None of that was helpful for resolving my GPS issue, but it was interesting.
Dec 16 03:23:49 <Digital_Pioneer> So does anyone know how to make the GPS work in SHR? I can't get any satellites.
Dec 16 03:24:17 <slaxxin> the latest shr?
Dec 16 03:28:00 <Digital_Pioneer> Yes.
Dec 16 03:28:04 <Digital_Pioneer> Just flashed it today.
Dec 16 03:40:15 <Digital_Pioneer> Can I safely add the 2008.8 package repos in SHR?
Dec 16 03:40:20 <Digital_Pioneer> The SHR ones seem... Weak.
Dec 16 03:43:23 <orzo> why not add signatures to the packages?
Dec 16 03:48:16 <mwester-laptop> orzo: or better still, why not put the non-pgp-signed opkg on the images instead?
Dec 16 03:48:36 <orzo> heh
Dec 16 03:49:18 <orzo> why's that better
Dec 16 03:52:00 <sicu> Digital_Pioneer: my gps works fine outside as long as i leave the FR outside with a clear view to the sky
Dec 16 03:52:20 <sicu> it always takes longer on first fix, so leave it for about 30mins and see what you get
Dec 16 03:54:24 <Digital-Pioneer> sicu: OK, there is no clear sky right now, and I don't want to leave a $400 piece of hardware in the freezing rain... ;) So what do I have it do for 30 mins? What should I have running, enabled, etc?
Dec 16 04:07:46 <Digital-Pioneer> The Freerunner doesn't have a vibrator in it does it?
Dec 16 04:10:47 <Digital-Pioneer> Ooh, it does. Didn't even know!
Dec 16 04:12:02 <orzo> pervert
Dec 16 04:12:41 <Digital-Pioneer> Very funny.
Dec 16 04:12:48 <rooly> i know
Dec 16 04:14:05 <orzo> how do i tell midori a url?
Dec 16 04:14:30 <Digital-Pioneer> That's a very good question. Heheh
Dec 16 04:14:45 <orzo> i guess i could google it
Dec 16 04:14:46 <orzo> heh
Dec 16 04:14:53 <rooly> lol
Dec 16 04:15:13 <rooly> try file->open
Dec 16 04:16:20 <Digital-Pioneer> The viber isn't very powerful... But it exists.
Dec 16 04:16:51 <rooly> just attach a large rubber prosthesis to the phone, it should work just fine
Dec 16 04:17:08 <rooly> preferably cylindrically shaped
Dec 16 04:19:07 <orzo> file->open doesnt do the trick for me
Dec 16 04:19:56 <rooly> poke around
Dec 16 04:20:00 <rooly> its in there somewhere
Dec 16 04:21:20 <Digital-Pioneer> orzo: Who's the pervert now?
Dec 16 04:21:44 <rooly> you are, digi
Dec 16 04:21:46 <rooly> stil
Dec 16 04:21:55 <Digital-Pioneer> Aye, you are.
Dec 16 04:23:14 <orzo> two perverts in love
Dec 16 04:23:58 <orzo> i put midori in full screen mode
Dec 16 04:24:07 <orzo> now how do i get my top shelf back?
Dec 16 04:24:08 <orzo> heh
Dec 16 04:29:22 <rooly> take midori out of full screen mode]
Dec 16 04:31:07 <orzo> yes
Dec 16 04:31:08 <orzo> how?
Dec 16 04:31:26 <rooly> i dunno
Dec 16 04:31:27 <orzo> i selected fullscreen from teh view menu
Dec 16 04:31:32 <rooly> try crashing your browser
Dec 16 04:31:46 <rooly> try this
Dec 16 04:31:54 <rooly> select a text entry box
Dec 16 04:31:57 <orzo> i killed it
Dec 16 04:32:36 <rooly> well, i was gonna say, pull out an input box and when the keyboard  comes up, hit ctrl+w
Dec 16 04:33:09 <orzo> i always have to select qwerty from the top shelf to get a keyboard
Dec 16 04:33:35 <rooly> ic
Dec 16 04:33:42 <orzo> is that not expected?
Dec 16 04:33:45 <rooly> hmm....your kinda shit-outta-luck then, eh?
Dec 16 04:34:04 <orzo> is qwerty suppoesd to pop up on its own?
Dec 16 04:47:22 <sicu> orzo: not in SHR
Dec 16 04:48:40 <sicu> orzo: if you have latest SHR, a quick click on pwrbtn will give you a system menu that lets you choose (suspend, lock, shutdown, close, home)
Dec 16 04:48:56 <orzo> heh
Dec 16 04:49:23 <orzo> anybody use dillo?
Dec 16 04:49:57 <rooly> i have
Dec 16 04:50:02 <rooly> 's quite nice
Dec 16 04:51:04 <orzo> heh
Dec 16 04:51:23 <orzo> i wrote a patch for it many years ago to make it wrap text around photos properly
Dec 16 04:51:27 <rooly> the whole 'it loads up in less than a second'
Dec 16 04:51:59 <orzo> they rejected my patch because i didnt do it the way the guy who wrote the layout component envisioned
Dec 16 04:52:01 <rooly> as compared to any of the webkit browsers
Dec 16 04:52:18 <rooly> thats foss, orzo
Dec 16 04:52:31 <Digital-Pioneer> orzo: SSH in and kill midori
Dec 16 04:52:49 <rooly> while your at it, opkg remove midori
Dec 16 04:52:50 <orzo> well dillo still do what i implemented
Dec 16 04:52:55 <orzo> er
Dec 16 04:52:58 <orzo> still cant do
Dec 16 04:53:22 <orzo> i fail to see why his way is better, but he's german and i sense a bit of a communication barrier
Dec 16 04:53:24 <rooly> thats foss for ya, orzo
Dec 16 04:53:39 <rooly> also...he's german
Dec 16 04:54:03 <rooly> americans tend to like singletons, europeans seem to like correct programming practices
Dec 16 04:54:11 <orzo> heh
Dec 16 04:54:24 <orzo> "correct"
Dec 16 04:54:55 <orzo> see
Dec 16 04:55:42 <rooly> comes right after b
Dec 16 04:55:43 <orzo> i was just interpretting objects differently than he was
Dec 16 04:56:11 <orzo> i think my disign was closer to what you'd want based on what we need the program to do
Dec 16 04:56:16 <rooly> oh, no, that was no insinuation towards your ability
Dec 16 04:56:21 <orzo> and his design was based closer on reading the CSS spec
Dec 16 04:57:13 <orzo> he wanted to match software classes with CSS spec concepts
Dec 16 04:57:23 <orzo> which i dont see any point to
Dec 16 04:58:02 <orzo> anyway, they regret rejecting my patch
Dec 16 04:58:05 <orzo> heh
Dec 16 04:58:14 <rooly> do they?
Dec 16 04:58:18 <rooly> really?
Dec 16 04:58:23 <orzo> well they say so to the list
Dec 16 04:58:38 <orzo> but thats the project lead
Dec 16 04:58:44 <rooly> shit happens
Dec 16 04:58:53 <orzo> not the guy who is in charge of the layout component
Dec 16 04:59:34 <rooly> i'm on fsking dialup here
Dec 16 04:59:49 <rooly> running a 3g aircard here
Dec 16 05:00:01 <rooly> and getting 14kbps
Dec 16 05:00:19 <orzo> sucks
Dec 16 05:00:24 <orzo> shit happens
Dec 16 05:00:50 <rooly> i try to tell people, "3g is still dialup"
Dec 16 05:00:52 <rooly> but nooooo
Dec 16 05:00:55 <rooly> nobody listens
Dec 16 05:01:12 <orzo> i'm not really familiar 
Dec 16 05:01:20 <orzo> 3g is the cellular network, right?
Dec 16 05:01:39 <orzo> it's not broadband?
Dec 16 05:01:40 <rooly> its the cellular data network speed rating
Dec 16 05:01:58 <orzo> and its that slow?
Dec 16 05:02:06 <rooly> yup
Dec 16 05:02:13 <orzo> i was considering cellular inernet
Dec 16 05:02:23 <rooly> 30$'s a month in the US
Dec 16 05:02:32 <rooly> should use free dialup instead
Dec 16 05:02:36 <rooly> you'd be better off
Dec 16 05:03:06 <orzo> i didnt know i could get it for as low as 30
Dec 16 05:03:29 <rooly> thats how much it'll cost me to add it to my cell phone plna
Dec 16 05:03:31 <rooly> *plan
Dec 16 05:04:13 <rooly> its probably a good deal more expensive on its own
Dec 16 05:04:28 <orzo> okay
Dec 16 05:04:49 <orzo> is there a faster cellular internet?
Dec 16 05:05:46 <madwoota> 4G!
Dec 16 05:06:17 <rooly> yeah, it'll run at 20-25
Dec 16 05:06:52 <orzo> is it compatible with the openmokos?
Dec 16 05:07:01 <rooly> phttt
Dec 16 05:07:02 <rooly> hahahahaha
Dec 16 05:07:20 <rooly> 4g isn't here yet, orzo
Dec 16 05:07:44 <Digital-Pioneer> OK, where do you get /usr/lib/libpulse.so.0? I'm trying to install a program that wants it...
Dec 16 05:08:11 <rooly> pulseaudio or pulse-audio maybe>
Dec 16 05:08:20 <rooly> opkg list | grep pulse
Dec 16 05:08:49 <orzo> is the cellular voice signal digital underneath?
Dec 16 05:09:07 <Digital-Pioneer> Ahhh.
Dec 16 05:09:11 <orzo> can we program our neos to send raw data in teh voice signal?
Dec 16 05:09:20 <rooly> nope
Dec 16 05:09:26 <rooly> tried that meself
Dec 16 05:09:36 <rooly> aka no faxes
Dec 16 05:09:54 <orzo> why not?
Dec 16 05:10:01 <rooly> has to do with codecs
Dec 16 05:10:10 <orzo> oh
Dec 16 05:10:13 <orzo> so it is digital
Dec 16 05:10:17 <rooly> no
Dec 16 05:10:20 <orzo> but we have to follow some rules
Dec 16 05:10:23 <orzo> based on codecs
Dec 16 05:10:30 <rooly> its analog on your end
Dec 16 05:10:43 <orzo> well my end is a neo and your end is a neo
Dec 16 05:11:08 <rooly> the network passes the audio signal thru codecs that remove non-voice sounds
Dec 16 05:14:37 <orzo> so what you tried was taking raw data and turning into an audio fax signal or something
Dec 16 05:15:07 <rooly> i tried doing gsm dialup
Dec 16 05:15:13 <rooly> which is the same thing
Dec 16 05:15:16 <rooly> no-go
Dec 16 05:15:35 <orzo> do we have access to the actual signal that is being transmitted from our phone
Dec 16 05:15:58 <orzo> not the audio
Dec 16 05:16:12 <orzo> but the underlying cellular packets or whatever
Dec 16 05:16:22 <rooly> doesn't matter
Dec 16 05:16:29 <rooly> the phone hardware doesn't do the filtering
Dec 16 05:16:33 <rooly> its the network
Dec 16 05:16:42 <rooly> some networks it would very well work on
Dec 16 05:16:45 <rooly> others it won't
Dec 16 05:16:49 <orzo> well im curious about the answer anyway
Dec 16 05:17:11 <rooly> it wouldn't be particularly hard to catch them
Dec 16 05:17:18 <Digital-Pioneer> Anyone here tried the eightball app? Useless little fun thing. :P
Dec 16 05:17:23 <Digital-Pioneer> But it won't work on mine.
Dec 16 05:17:25 <rooly> agreed, digi
Dec 16 05:17:29 <rooly> aww
Dec 16 05:17:31 <rooly> i'm sowwy
Dec 16 05:17:38 <rooly> why not?
Dec 16 05:18:14 <Digital-Pioneer> I shake it, nothing happens.
Dec 16 05:18:30 <rooly> touch the screen
Dec 16 05:18:51 <Digital-Pioneer> Yeah, I know, but what fun is that?!
Dec 16 05:19:33 <orzo> my phone doesnt have an accelerometer
Dec 16 05:19:45 <Digital-Pioneer> orzo: ?
Dec 16 05:19:48 <Digital-Pioneer> No Freerunner?
Dec 16 05:19:55 <orzo> it's neo1973
Dec 16 05:20:02 <Digital-Pioneer> Awww.
Dec 16 05:20:35 <ColdFyre> i just got a gta03
Dec 16 05:20:47 <orzo> i didnt know those were available
Dec 16 05:20:55 <ColdFyre> they aren't
Dec 16 05:20:59 <AntonTakk> woo, had my fr on all day (granted suspended most of it) and only the first of the four indicator bars went out  :)
Dec 16 05:21:04 <ColdFyre> i built a time machine using my gta02
Dec 16 05:21:31 <AntonTakk> roughly 16 hours  :)
Dec 16 05:21:43 <AntonTakk> er
Dec 16 05:21:50 <AntonTakk> battery charge indicator bars
Dec 16 05:22:00 <rooly> AntonTakk: i've gotten mine to run for over 2 days without dieing or charging before
Dec 16 05:22:22 <AntonTakk> nice
Dec 16 05:22:31 <rooly> but thats kinda hard, since you have to reboot at least once a day usually
Dec 16 05:23:25 <AntonTakk> i only had to reboot it after playing with fourier, didn't setup sound properly for a test call afterwards
Dec 16 05:23:40 <AntonTakk> but it received the call just fine
Dec 16 05:23:59 <AntonTakk> and the volume adjuster works, a bit hard to use thou
Dec 16 05:24:23 <AntonTakk> if only it would receive mms and read my sim contacts  :)
Dec 16 05:25:29 <orzo> uh
Dec 16 05:25:34 <orzo> opkg is upgrading my kernel
Dec 16 05:25:48 <AntonTakk> welp, just wanted to report the good battery life experience
Dec 16 05:26:03 <AntonTakk> night all
Dec 16 06:42:02 <CIA-67> openmoko: 03charlie * r4872 10/developers/charlie/Tests/Python/import/ (. module1.py module2.py test.py): Add python import tests scripts
Dec 16 06:46:30 * mwester reads the mailing list archives for the past week, and notes that the natives grow increasingly more restless.
Dec 16 06:54:57 <gecco> good morning
Dec 16 06:55:03 <cdm> g'da
Dec 16 06:55:05 <cdm> day
Dec 16 06:59:42 <CIA-67> openmoko: 03charlie * r4873 10/developers/charlie/Tests/paroli_report.txt: Add paroli_report.text
Dec 16 07:31:05 <d-b> hi there is any one on qtopia 4.4.1 i think it is -> where is the gtalk app
Dec 16 07:32:23 <slaxxin> is that not on shr?
Dec 16 07:32:52 <d-b> i don't know. i'm not using shr
Dec 16 07:38:22 <slaxxin> i think its 4.4.2 with gtalk
Dec 16 07:38:39 <slaxxin> anyways i used it yesterday
Dec 16 07:38:50 <d-b> gtalk ? 
Dec 16 07:38:52 <d-b> or 4.4.2
Dec 16 07:40:05 <rob_w> hi there .. i would be selling my 2 openmoko`s .. for low budget ! 
Dec 16 07:41:06 <slaxxin> http://other.lastnetwork.net/OpenMoko/
Dec 16 07:41:26 <d-b> nice ?
Dec 16 07:41:40 <slaxxin> is that not it?
Dec 16 07:41:45 <d-b> what is this tho + why dl from there and not qt site ?
Dec 16 07:42:54 <slaxxin> well if they were at the qt site u wouldnt be looking for them
Dec 16 07:43:02 <slaxxin> :)
Dec 16 07:43:06 <d-b> what?
Dec 16 07:57:46 <d-b> slaxxin: are you going to answer that...
Dec 16 07:58:01 <d-b> so in qt extended they don't have voip / gtalk compiled atm ?
Dec 16 08:04:48 <Hopscotch> good morning
Dec 16 08:04:59 <sleipnir> morning
Dec 16 08:05:12 <henk> moin
Dec 16 08:09:32 <d-b> slaxxin: ok fair enough _> saw mailing list --> is it good ?
Dec 16 08:09:57 <henk> that's a sad story...
Dec 16 08:54:36 <d-b> btw what is the official reason for not including a terminal in any of the om2008 releases ?
Dec 16 09:09:16 <henk> d-b: there is openmoko-terminal in the repository isn't there?
Dec 16 09:12:19 <Sargun> Man, OM is cool
Dec 16 09:13:20 <feitingen> :D
Dec 16 09:13:34 <der-lehmann> tell us why
Dec 16 09:13:50 <Sargun> der-lehmann, because I can SSH into it
Dec 16 09:13:53 <Sargun> I can make it buzz
Dec 16 09:14:14 <Sargun> I can use it as both a tool to monitor global uptime, as a neat sex toy for my girlfriend, and it looks funny.
Dec 16 09:14:23 <Sargun> and the screen is beautiful.
Dec 16 09:14:29 <Sargun> I use a Treo, I like things that look funny
Dec 16 09:14:42 <Sargun> ;-P
Dec 16 09:16:18 <der-lehmann> buzzing is cool?
Dec 16 09:16:30 <Sargun> der-lehmann, very.
Dec 16 09:16:40 <Sargun> I wrote an application which synced the buzzing with music
Dec 16 09:17:12 <henk> buzzing? you mean the vibrations, right?
Dec 16 09:17:15 <Sargun> yes.
Dec 16 09:17:21 <gurugentoo> I'm not sure I'd want to use it as a sex toy...
Dec 16 09:17:23 <henk> not the 'buzzing' as in 'buzz issue'
Dec 16 09:17:26 <der-lehmann> now i understand
Dec 16 09:17:30 <Sargun> gurugentoo, Why not?
Dec 16 09:17:37 <Sargun> Oh, also, I can install Gentoo on it.
Dec 16 09:17:41 <Sargun> I can throw gentoo at someone
Dec 16 09:17:44 <Sargun> while it is running
Dec 16 09:17:47 <Sargun> That's pretty neat.
Dec 16 09:18:16 <gurugentoo> don't want to get it...ahem messy
Dec 16 09:20:23 <gurugentoo> though that could be avoided..
Dec 16 09:20:57 <Sargun> gurugentoo, Sammich baggy.
Dec 16 09:22:17 <gurugentoo> Sargun: wireless control could be entertaining
Dec 16 09:23:06 <gurugentoo> it's a whole new marketing angle hehe
Dec 16 09:23:08 <Sargun> gurugentoo, It is.
Dec 16 09:23:14 <Sargun> I tried it with my girlfriend.
Dec 16 09:23:51 <gurugentoo> fun
Dec 16 09:24:25 <henk> how do you control the vibrating?
Dec 16 09:26:10 <Sargun> henk, Wifi
Dec 16 09:26:46 <henk> nvm, i meant on the F
Dec 16 09:26:51 <henk> FR, but i found it
Dec 16 09:30:03 <Sargun> oh
Dec 16 09:35:13 <CIA-67> openmoko: 03erin_yueh * r4874 10/developers/erin_yueh/bt/ (6 files): add GPL2 license, still testing version 0.1
Dec 16 10:58:37 <d-b> wait so who in here uses their phone as a phone ? (openmoko freerunner) -> what battery life do you get on om2008.9
Dec 16 11:12:10 <lindi-> d-b: isn't that entirely up to the kernel?
Dec 16 11:22:10 <d-b> lindi-: well yes. i guess -> re suspend and foo . but what do people get
Dec 16 11:22:32 <d-b> do people feel it is reliable enough to be used as a phone for day without charging it 
Dec 16 11:23:16 <lindi-> d-b: reliability of phonecalls is also up to the userland
Dec 16 11:23:38 <d-b> lindi-: right.
Dec 16 11:24:20 <d-b> but overall does anyone feel it (any distro) reliable enough to be used for a phone day as a phone /making calls /smsing without charging it
Dec 16 11:24:27 <lindi-> d-b: i have not managed to compile om2008.9
Dec 16 11:24:49 <d-b> lindi-: ... there is an image... i believe -> i haven't tried too...
Dec 16 11:25:37 <d-b> lindi-: mmm i might get a smaller debian on the 512mb sdcard and see how long that lasts. -> my big 8gb sdcard just keeps wiping
Dec 16 11:25:42 <d-b> (itself)
Dec 16 11:25:44 <lindi-> d-b: i don't do images, sorry :)
Dec 16 11:25:54 <d-b> ah fair enough .
Dec 16 11:26:06 <lindi-> if something does not compile i can't hack on it
Dec 16 11:27:03 <d-b> lindi-: ok. lindi- do you use your phone as a phone atm / have
Dec 16 11:27:14 <lindi-> d-b: yeah
Dec 16 11:28:34 <d-b> lindi-: and how long does it last for / do you consider it reliable
Dec 16 11:28:46 <lindi-> d-b: i never let it discharge fully
Dec 16 11:29:05 <lindi-> d-b: it's around three percentage units per hour
Dec 16 11:29:33 <lindi-> i don't have time to leave the phone in suspend for a day to test this, i need to place calls in between :)
Dec 16 11:29:41 <d-b> lindi-: fair enough.
Dec 16 11:29:46 <d-b> so you say 3% an hour ?
Dec 16 11:29:57 <d-b> is this on debian .. or shr ..
Dec 16 11:29:59 <lindi-> 3 percentage units yes
Dec 16 11:30:03 <lindi-> not percentages of course
Dec 16 11:30:09 <lindi-> since then it would never get empty :)
Dec 16 11:30:20 <lindi-> d-b: debian yes
Dec 16 11:30:25 <lindi-> d-b: with stable-tracking 80f4 kernel
Dec 16 11:30:34 <d-b> ah ? so 100% --> after one hour 97% ?
Dec 16 11:30:40 <lindi-> yeah
Dec 16 11:30:47 <d-b> with fso open ?
Dec 16 11:30:51 <d-b> suspened...
Dec 16 11:30:58 <lindi-> and registered to gsm network yes
Dec 16 11:31:13 <d-b> and do you know how much a phone call reduces the battery life ?
Dec 16 11:31:39 <d-b> lindi-: so where can i get a copy of the kernel / did you compile it 
Dec 16 11:32:00 <lindi-> d-b: a lot
Dec 16 11:32:11 <d-b> >10% ?
Dec 16 11:32:26 <d-b> this seems fairly reasonable.
Dec 16 11:32:27 <lindi-> it's around 6 hours if the phone is just sitting idle and not suspended
Dec 16 11:32:46 <lindi-> so i'd say 4 hours of talk time or so to be conservative
Dec 16 11:33:08 <d-b> lindi-: mmm i seem to have a very large echo on debian using fso tho.
Dec 16 11:33:21 <lindi-> d-b: git.openmoko.org is the way to help with kernel stuff
Dec 16 12:10:06 <mjr> so does testing ever shut down the screen if you don't let it suspend (which usually crashes the second time)? that's nice
Dec 16 12:40:31 <gecco> openvibe is out http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/OpenVibe
Dec 16 12:41:09 <henk> lol
Dec 16 12:42:05 <gecco> i search betatester
Dec 16 12:42:32 <henk> just a sec ;)
Dec 16 12:42:45 <d-b> ..... rofl
Dec 16 12:42:51 <viq> :D
Dec 16 12:43:16 <gecco> :)
Dec 16 12:43:18 * zedstar is waiting for the user submitted pics using it
Dec 16 12:43:24 <gecco> ahhaah
Dec 16 12:43:25 <mudyc> gecco: don't you have a girlfriend of your own?-)
Dec 16 12:43:43 <gecco> yes... i have... but she don't wont to use it :)
Dec 16 12:43:48 <d-b> um you know there are usb things. rofl
Dec 16 12:44:00 <henk> i'll ask my GF if she wants to test it in a few hours ;)
Dec 16 12:44:14 <gecco> henk: take picture :)
Dec 16 12:44:35 <gecco> now i'm going to take lunch... see you
Dec 16 12:44:42 <henk> i guess not 'g'
Dec 16 12:44:51 <henk> but who knows...
Dec 16 12:45:21 <zedstar> c'mon it's christmas ;)
Dec 16 12:45:29 <univac> gg g ggg ggggg ooogle
Dec 16 12:46:14 <henk> hm, doesn't vibe at all :-/
Dec 16 12:53:02 <henk> hrhr works now... wrong path.
Dec 16 13:07:43 <CVirus> OpenVibe is the first open source vibration. With this software you can control the vibration of the FreeRunner for give pleasure to your girlfriend. 
Dec 16 13:07:44 <CVirus> ROFL
Dec 16 13:16:34 <CIA-67> freesmartphone.org: 03mickey 07framework * r001f5426d595 10/framework/subsystems/odeviced/audio.py: odeviced: audio: try harder to escape spaces in filenames
Dec 16 13:16:34 <CIA-67> freesmartphone.org: 03mickey 07framework * r41216b7057ec 10/framework/subsystems/oeventsd/fso_actions.py: oeventsd: spawn processes asynchronous in CommandAction. Closes FSO #235
Dec 16 13:25:34 <alphaone> raster: ping
Dec 16 13:28:49 <CIA-67> openmoko: 03john_lee 07org.openmoko.stable * rcd512fd1e1ae 10/conf/distro/openmoko.conf: openmoko.conf: change feed to Om2008.8.
Dec 16 14:16:22 <der-lehmann> anyone using scummvm in shr?
Dec 16 14:25:25 <mjr> ok so what to do when a FR unit seems to come out of suspend relatively intact, except usually on the second time it'll blank the display (usually blinking down after first working for just a moment after the restore)?
Dec 16 14:26:20 <Tig|> I had that on shr,  basically you have to unsuspend then tap the screen to bring it back
Dec 16 14:26:56 <mjr> how about when trying that did not elude one's imagination
Dec 16 14:27:17 <mjr> and when another unit with the same software seems to function better in this regard
Dec 16 15:08:14 <b0ef> ehlo
Dec 16 15:08:17 <b0ef> was there an SOP for the gsm buzz posted somewhere?
Dec 16 15:10:21 <b0ef> ah, got it
Dec 16 15:45:41 <CIA-67> freesmartphone.org: 03daniel 07framework * r81dc88aa7842 10/framework/subsystems/ogsmd/modems/ericsson_F3507g/ (__init__.py channel.py mediator.py modem.py unsolicited.py): Merge commit 'origin/stefan-F3507g'
Dec 16 15:45:42 <CIA-67> freesmartphone.org: 03daniel 07framework * r9e4966d35572 10/framework/subsystems/ogsmd/modems/ (3 files in 2 dirs): 
Dec 16 15:45:42 <CIA-67> freesmartphone.org: ogsmd: First working ericsson F3507g modem driver
Dec 16 15:45:42 <CIA-67> freesmartphone.org: SIM access is working, PDP fails at the moment because the connect
Dec 16 15:45:44 <CIA-67> freesmartphone.org: script sends an ATZ which the F3507g responds to with ERROR.
Dec 16 15:45:46 <CIA-67> freesmartphone.org: It seems that changing CSCS has an effect on *all* strings, even CSCS
Dec 16 15:45:48 <CIA-67> freesmartphone.org: itself and COPS. This will need to be worked around later.
Dec 16 16:17:03 <slaxxin> shr news
Dec 16 16:20:17 <Tig|> there is shr news?
Dec 16 16:28:25 <sicu> Tig|: @ om planet
Dec 16 16:29:14 <Tig|> aha ta
Dec 16 16:31:41 <Tig|> wooo good news :)
Dec 16 16:36:56 <Dave> :)
Dec 16 17:02:44 <jonkristian> dangit, shr refuses ssh:/
Dec 16 17:04:11 <nkinkade> jonkristian: I think this was (is?) a known issue in some cases ... I believe you can just open a terminal on the Neo and ifup usb0 or ifconfig usb0 up, or something like that.
Dec 16 17:04:56 <Tig|> iirc mofi had a bug in it that took usb0 down when it starts and does not put it back when finished
Dec 16 17:05:18 <jonkristian> ah yes, but it's been working quite well until last night
Dec 16 17:05:19 <nkinkade> Yes I saw that one too, and in those cases a simple "ifconfig usb0 up" fixed it for me.
Dec 16 17:05:37 <jonkristian> probably some conflicts there, but im re-flashing testing first:)
Dec 16 17:05:47 <jonkristian> yuppyupp
Dec 16 17:05:58 <jonkristian> btw, happy xmas everybody
Dec 16 17:06:07 <Tm_T> happy tuesday
Dec 16 17:06:12 <jonkristian> Tm_T: that too
Dec 16 17:07:22 <jc> you need to start dropbear and make sure it listens on the interface you're connecting to
Dec 16 17:08:20 <jc> netstat -tean should tell you somethings listening on port 22
Dec 16 17:21:44 <vallor> jazus
Dec 16 17:56:00 <Sargun> Hello all.
Dec 16 18:04:26 <bhuvi> did anybody know the cost of openmoko mobile in india
Dec 16 18:12:15 <bhuvi> did anybody know the cost of openmoko mobile in india
Dec 16 18:12:36 <SpeedEvil> bhuvi: I don't think anyone does
Dec 16 18:12:41 <SpeedEvil> I'd have a look on the wiki
Dec 16 18:12:48 <SpeedEvil> Or ratehr - nobody on right now knows
Dec 16 18:13:49 <l403> does anyonoe have some newer EZX openmoko rootfs images?
Dec 16 19:02:52 <LostInSpace> hey guys
Dec 16 19:03:04 <LostInSpace> any of you have a quick link to download s3c24xx-gpio_1.0 source code?
Dec 16 19:03:31 <Zorkman> maybe ask the question in #openmoko-cdevel ?
Dec 16 19:06:32 <LostInSpace> thanks
Dec 16 19:07:41 <mujo> hi, I just got my neo freerunner(woohoo!), I got a sim from at&t and its not in the wiki's supported list. Should I update the firmware as specified here:http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/GSM/Flashing or go kick and scream at the at&t store to get an older sim?
Dec 16 19:07:59 <Zorkman> mujo; did you test it first?
Dec 16 19:08:34 <mujo> yes, it says registering
Dec 16 19:08:54 <mujo> I try to wiggle it in different position(physically) as well with no result
Dec 16 19:09:20 <mujo> the SKU is 71247
Dec 16 19:09:50 <slaxxin> is it a 71234G?
Dec 16 19:10:04 <slaxxin> o
Dec 16 19:12:18 <slaxxin> iare the contacts all over to one side an not centered up?
Dec 16 19:12:40 <slaxxin> or close to center?
Dec 16 19:13:29 <mujo> no
Dec 16 19:13:36 <mujo> there are 8 contacts
Dec 16 19:13:47 <mujo> they seem to fit the device's contacts
Dec 16 19:16:27 <mujo> the 8 device's pins even show up on the sim card
Dec 16 19:22:12 <LostInSpace> any of you guys have an openembedded openmoko package installed that they can check s3c24xx-gpio bitbake file so I can get the URL to the source of s3c24xx-gpio?
Dec 16 19:23:08 <jc> s3c24xx-gpio? why not have look at the git ?
Dec 16 19:23:33 <LostInSpace> checked quickly didn't see it
Dec 16 19:23:52 <jc> s3c24xx-gpi site:git.openmoko.org revea;s"
Dec 16 19:23:54 <LostInSpace> i just want to compile that code (little app to poke/peek s3c24xx gpios)
Dec 16 19:23:57 <jc> http://git.openmoko.org/git/openmoko.git/packages/images/fso-image.bb
Dec 16 19:24:11 <jc> guess that's not it
Dec 16 19:24:34 <LostInSpace> no that's not it =)
Dec 16 19:24:43 <LostInSpace> but thanks for trying heheh
Dec 16 19:25:25 <jc> http://www.angstrom-distribution.org/repo/?pkgname=s3c24xx-gpio-dev
Dec 16 19:25:28 <jc> says its on svn
Dec 16 19:25:48 <jc> http://svn.openmoko.org/branches/src/target/kernel/2.6.24.x/patches/dump-gpio.patch
Dec 16 19:25:51 <jc> and here we have it
Dec 16 19:26:03 <jc> aah nah thats the kernel part
Dec 16 19:26:52 <LostInSpace> hehe
Dec 16 19:26:57 <LostInSpace> i just want to see this app
Dec 16 19:27:09 <LostInSpace> i'm using devmem2 right now to try and debug gpios
Dec 16 19:27:19 <LostInSpace> but someone suggested s3c24xx-gpio
Dec 16 19:27:26 <jc> why do that ?
Dec 16 19:27:45 <jc> you trying to flash leds in extreme style? ;)
Dec 16 19:28:00 <LostInSpace> no
Dec 16 19:28:06 <LostInSpace> I have this old gps
Dec 16 19:28:12 <LostInSpace> that runs linux
Dec 16 19:28:20 <LostInSpace> stupid company never released their kernel source
Dec 16 19:28:30 <LostInSpace> i'm trying to pressure them with gpl-violations lol
Dec 16 19:28:39 <LostInSpace> anyways I wanna use this useless gps as a nice little gadget
Dec 16 19:28:42 <LostInSpace> kinda like my Z
Dec 16 19:28:46 <jc> I know that feeling, might try the same with mikrotik :P
Dec 16 19:28:49 <LostInSpace> but anyting USB fails right now
Dec 16 19:29:04 <LostInSpace> but I still have the old kernel (flash partition) backup
Dec 16 19:29:08 <LostInSpace> and I can still boot the old kernel
Dec 16 19:29:18 <LostInSpace> I'm trying to see if they put a GPIO to control usb
Dec 16 19:29:22 <LostInSpace> like pb_ suggested
Dec 16 19:30:06 <jc> it seems its not a part of openmoko svn
Dec 16 19:31:35 <jc> stupid binary blob
Dec 16 19:31:36 <jc> s
Dec 16 19:31:49 <jc> gotta hate standard packaging utilities
Dec 16 19:33:11 <mwester> SRC_URI = "svn://svn.openmoko.org/trunk/src/target;module=gpio;proto=http"
Dec 16 19:35:04 <LostInSpace> oh
Dec 16 19:35:27 <jc> svn: Can't connect to host 'svn.openmoko.org': Connection refused
Dec 16 19:35:49 <LostInSpace> module?
Dec 16 19:36:08 <jc> gpio ?
Dec 16 19:36:28 <LostInSpace> http://svn.openmoko.org/trunk/src/target/gpio/
Dec 16 19:36:31 <LostInSpace> seems to do the same thing
Dec 16 19:36:42 <jc> the http one works
Dec 16 19:36:52 <LostInSpace> mind u says for 2442
Dec 16 19:37:24 <LostInSpace> same base hex add for gpios 5600xxxxxxxxx
Dec 16 19:37:33 <LostInSpace>  0x56000000 to be precise
Dec 16 19:37:39 <LostInSpace> wonder if they are mapped the same way
Dec 16 19:38:22 <jc> huh.. its called gpio and yet its downloading lots of artwork? :)
Dec 16 19:39:11 <jc> I think I got it wrong somehow, nevermind
Dec 16 19:40:10 <jc> yeah, forgot to add /gpio
Dec 16 19:41:09 <jc> wth
Dec 16 19:41:21 <jc> are ports unprotected in userspace ?
Dec 16 19:42:22 <LostInSpace> !?!?!
Dec 16 19:42:41 <jc> seems so, this tool is written for linux :)
Dec 16 19:43:06 <jc> all hail potential virus writers
Dec 16 19:43:13 <lindi-> jc: you need root?
Dec 16 19:43:30 <jc> that would make sense
Dec 16 19:43:54 <jc> but even though you're root you should not have unprotected access to memory mapped periherals
Dec 16 19:43:58 <jc> I thought the soc had mmu
Dec 16 19:44:05 <jc> ooooooh
Dec 16 19:44:06 <jc> dumb me
Dec 16 19:44:08 <jc> now I get it
Dec 16 19:44:15 <jc> it does it over /dev/mem
Dec 16 19:44:19 <jc> never mind then
Dec 16 19:44:35 <LostInSpace> yup
Dec 16 19:44:38 <LostInSpace> like devmem2
Dec 16 19:45:00 <jc> I'm not used to having raw memory access :D
Dec 16 19:45:02 <LostInSpace> mwester, funny can't see to get the file from that SRC URI
Dec 16 19:45:28 <jc> LostInSpace: svn checkout http://svn.openmoko.org/trunk/src/target/gpio gpio
Dec 16 19:45:49 <LostInSpace> jc, i'm there
Dec 16 19:45:52 <LostInSpace> already checked it out before
Dec 16 19:45:55 <LostInSpace> i Can use it
Dec 16 19:46:00 <LostInSpace> probably need to modify it
Dec 16 19:46:02 <jc> its gpio.c as it seems
Dec 16 19:46:03 <LostInSpace> since that was written for 2442
Dec 16 19:46:11 <LostInSpace> and will need different port ranges
Dec 16 19:46:38 <jc> if it was called 24xx maybe its usable across the whole family
Dec 16 19:46:48 <jc> I think they probably have different ports but same base
Dec 16 19:47:03 <LostInSpace> yes but
Dec 16 19:47:17 <LostInSpace> wouldn't s3c24xx-gpio be called s3c24xx.gpio.c
Dec 16 19:47:19 <LostInSpace> and not gpio.c
Dec 16 19:47:20 <LostInSpace> ?
Dec 16 19:48:09 <jc> maybe someone tried it on a different soc from the same family and came to conclusion it works too so he'd call the package s3c24xx-gpio
Dec 16 19:48:55 <jc> If these ports apply for you:
Dec 16 19:49:02 <jc>  43   { "A", 0x00, 22, pt_a },
Dec 16 19:49:02 <jc>  44   { "B", 0x10, 10, pt_b },
Dec 16 19:49:02 <jc>  45   { "C", 0x20, 15, pt_b },
Dec 16 19:49:02 <jc>  46   { "D", 0x30, 15, pt_b },
Dec 16 19:49:02 <jc>  47   { "E", 0x40, 15, pt_b },
Dec 16 19:49:03 <jc>  48   { "F", 0x50,  7, pt_b },
Dec 16 19:49:05 <jc>  49   { "G", 0x60, 15, pt_b },
Dec 16 19:49:07 <jc>  50   { "H", 0x70, 10, pt_b },
Dec 16 19:49:09 <jc>  51   { "J", 0xd0, 12, pt_b },
Dec 16 19:49:11 <LostInSpace> well pretty sure J doesn't apply
Dec 16 19:49:21 <LostInSpace> the rest i'd have to check
Dec 16 19:49:26 <jc> which cpu is it ?
Dec 16 19:49:29 <LostInSpace> quickly like that it seems to make sense
Dec 16 19:49:32 <LostInSpace> s3c2410a
Dec 16 19:50:11 <jc> well unfortunately havent got that one handy
Dec 16 19:50:21 <LostInSpace> i have the pdf
Dec 16 19:50:35 <LostInSpace> i'll cross check the hex address and number of bits/ports
Dec 16 19:50:55 <jc> I have S3C2442B datasheet handy and it says:
Dec 16 19:50:59 <jc> - Port A(GPA): 25-output port
Dec 16 19:51:00 <jc> - Port B(GPB): 11-input/out port
Dec 16 19:51:00 <jc> - Port C(GPC): 16-input/output port
Dec 16 19:51:00 <jc> - Port D(GPD): 16-input/output port
Dec 16 19:51:00 <jc> - Port E(GPE): 16-input/output port
Dec 16 19:51:00 <jc> - Port F(GPF): 8-input/output port
Dec 16 19:51:02 <jc> - Port G(GPG): 16-input/output port
Dec 16 19:51:04 <jc> - Port H(GPH): 9-input/output port
Dec 16 19:51:06 <jc> - Port J(GPJ): 13-input/output port
Dec 16 19:51:11 <jc> seems to be exact match
Dec 16 19:51:20 <jc> obviously written by a fr developer I'd think
Dec 16 19:51:25 <LostInSpace> as i'm guessing pt_a applies for output only and pt_b appiies for input/output
Dec 16 19:51:45 <jc> as you can see, seems s
Dec 16 19:51:46 <LostInSpace> jc, you have 25output ports on gpa yes the gpio.c specifies only 23 =P
Dec 16 19:51:46 <jc> so
Dec 16 19:51:54 <LostInSpace> so doesn't matche your proc from what i read
Dec 16 19:52:24 <jc> oh you mean pins
Dec 16 19:52:33 <LostInSpace> jc no
Dec 16 19:52:37 <LostInSpace> first line
Dec 16 19:52:48 <LostInSpace> 43   { "A", 0x00, 22, pt_a }, = 23 port
Dec 16 19:52:48 <jc> maybe they omitted the ones that are used for special functions
Dec 16 19:52:53 <LostInSpace> 0 + 22 = 23
Dec 16 19:53:02 <LostInSpace> you said ur proc has 25ports on GPA
Dec 16 19:53:08 <LostInSpace> there for it doesn't match your proc =)
Dec 16 19:53:23 <jc> pins :D
Dec 16 19:53:30 <jc> there are 9 ports
Dec 16 19:53:43 <jc> port A, port B, port C, ...
Dec 16 19:54:00 <jc> lets see
Dec 16 19:54:17 <jc> - Port C(GPC): 16-input/output port  and in the tool: 45   { "C", 0x20, 15, pt_b }
Dec 16 19:54:24 <jc> lets see what special function port C has
Dec 16 19:55:23 <jc> some lcd stuff
Dec 16 19:55:32 <jc> afaik, lcd is controlled by glamo on fr, so doesn't apply
Dec 16 19:55:37 <SpeedEvil> http://www.elinux.org/Hammer_Board
Dec 16 19:55:40 <SpeedEvil> may be of use
Dec 16 19:55:47 <jc> oh I know where to find a clue
Dec 16 19:55:50 <SpeedEvil> it's got some pinouts of the 2410, nicely written down
Dec 16 19:55:57 <jc> there was some gpio description by the devs
Dec 16 19:55:59 <SpeedEvil> but the datasheet is the real answer
Dec 16 19:56:16 <SpeedEvil> and the schematic
Dec 16 19:56:41 <jc> https://svn.openmoko.org/trunk/doc/hardware/GTA02v4/gpio.txt
Dec 16 19:56:48 <mwester> The 2410 manual is on the web.
Dec 16 19:56:48 <jc> GPC5	I	GPC5	PIO_5
Dec 16 19:56:52 <jc> thats our answer
Dec 16 19:56:56 <jc> all NC except this one
Dec 16 19:56:59 <jc> so that adds up
Dec 16 19:57:22 <jc> they omitted the pins that are used for special purposes on the fr, obviously
Dec 16 19:57:38 <jc> but anyway, if you modify it, maybe it will work for you too
Dec 16 19:58:00 <TAsn> is it just me or have the OM certificated expired something like a month ago?
Dec 16 19:58:57 <jc> yeah, I just added an exception
Dec 16 20:01:23 <jc> SpeedEvil, hey thats a cool board :)
Dec 16 20:01:27 <LostInSpace> i have the s3c2410 manual
Dec 16 20:01:30 <LostInSpace> i aam comparing the gpio.c
Dec 16 20:01:36 <LostInSpace> just sick of using devmem2 for gpios =)
Dec 16 20:01:38 <SpeedEvil> jc: it is
Dec 16 20:01:54 <jc> nice way of avoiding the soldering
Dec 16 20:02:24 <LostInSpace> an arduino on steroids!
Dec 16 20:02:40 <jc> actually, I think 'arduino on steroids' is just ARM7TDMI with minimal clock ;)
Dec 16 20:02:56 <jc> I saw it somewhere
Dec 16 20:03:15 <jc> oh her it is: http://pandatron.cz/?559&vyvojovy_kit_at91sam7s256_firmy_kramara
Dec 16 20:04:52 <jc> this thing is crazy
Dec 16 20:04:58 <jc> with mmu and everything
Dec 16 20:06:52 <jc> it's a shame it doesn't have external memory interface though
Dec 16 20:07:15 <Tm_T> jc: use the knife
Dec 16 20:07:26 <jc> Tm_T: knife ?
Dec 16 20:07:50 <Tm_T> plastic case, knife and creativity == external interface
Dec 16 20:08:04 <Tm_T> (if you're lucky and/or skillful)
Dec 16 20:08:08 <jc> I don't get it :)
Dec 16 20:08:32 <Tm_T> jc: sillyness, ignore
Dec 16 20:08:51 <jc> you mean like slicing the die so I can access the internal busses? :D
Dec 16 20:09:07 <Tm_T> jc: and then use duct-tape
Dec 16 20:09:09 <jc> that would be hard core...
Dec 16 20:09:21 <jc> yeah if you've got micron precision hands ;)
Dec 16 20:09:36 <Tm_T> like me
Dec 16 20:10:58 <jc> I'd just sample it and solder it myself if I needed it, requieres less precision and reverse engineering skill ;P
Dec 16 20:11:03 <balrog-kun> i'm sure the duct-tape alone would suffice
Dec 16 20:11:20 <balrog-kun> no need for knives
Dec 16 20:11:33 <jc> if it has pins for that
Dec 16 20:12:33 <jc> oh actually I think atmel Xmega is arduino on steroids ;)
Dec 16 20:13:52 <jc> even the arm7tdmi one is so powerful that it would not even see arduino in comparison and probably just crush it like a fly
Dec 16 20:14:14 <jc> I think it can't even be underclocked to 20 MHz hehehe
Dec 16 20:14:44 <jc> (kidding, but you get the point)
Dec 16 20:17:33 <LostInSpace> actually
Dec 16 20:17:37 <LostInSpace> with micro positioning needles
Dec 16 20:18:14 <LostInSpace> some fuming nitric acid...some nail polish some wood stain remover it could be done!
Dec 16 20:18:47 <morosino> hi everybody
Dec 16 20:18:52 <jc> try it and submit for a honorary hack a day post to make your hack ever living ;)
Dec 16 20:19:07 <jc> that would be cool
Dec 16 20:19:25 <LostInSpace> lol
Dec 16 20:19:26 <jc> 'ever tired of the simple SoC dev modules denying you acess to internal memory buses?'
Dec 16 20:19:33 <LostInSpace> oh and an ultrasonic cleaner 2
Dec 16 20:20:00 <jc> 'turns out its very easy! you just need ultra precision tools'
Dec 16 20:20:00 <morosino> I have a question regarding the wsod: is this still a problem with the freerunner?
Dec 16 20:20:31 <LostInSpace> wood stain remover = hydrofluoric acid =) if you were wondering
Dec 16 20:20:46 <jc> good to know
Dec 16 20:21:13 <jc> maybe I'll try that on one of those old communist us ttl nand copies lying around
Dec 16 20:21:51 <jc> morosino: I haven't seen it since I got mine
Dec 16 20:22:02 <LostInSpace> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tnY7UVyaFiQ&eurl=http://vodpod.com/watch/799006-smart-card-hacking&feature=player_embedded
Dec 16 20:22:06 <LostInSpace> chris tavnorsky
Dec 16 20:22:19 <LostInSpace> tarnovsky sorry hahaha
Dec 16 20:22:43 <jc> heeey thats so cool :D
Dec 16 20:24:11 <LostInSpace> it's old
Dec 16 20:24:14 <LostInSpace> nothing new
Dec 16 20:24:18 <LostInSpace> but this guy has skillz =)
Dec 16 20:24:43 <jc> I saw something like this with poor mans standard pdip dies
Dec 16 20:24:43 <LostInSpace> i also like the techniques of removing security locks on microchips using a camera flash and a microscope
Dec 16 20:25:01 <jc> and the pic micros ;)
Dec 16 20:25:14 <jc> yeah those are THE skills ;
Dec 16 20:25:15 <jc> ;)
Dec 16 20:25:19 <LostInSpace> yup
Dec 16 20:25:27 <LostInSpace> but requires alot of equipment to do it right
Dec 16 20:25:27 <jc> (and equipment)
Dec 16 20:26:10 <jc> 'sit on the bus'
Dec 16 20:26:13 <jc> love the sound of that :D
Dec 16 20:26:44 <LostInSpace> lol
Dec 16 20:26:51 <LostInSpace> it's a nicer attack
Dec 16 20:26:56 <LostInSpace> using glitchers is kinda nasty
Dec 16 20:27:08 <LostInSpace> using a trim pot to control VCC and see how the chip reacts at diff voltages
Dec 16 20:27:15 <LostInSpace> see if it accepts commands it shouldn't
Dec 16 20:27:34 <jc> with AVRs I tried, flash and eeprom writing ceases to work
Dec 16 20:27:59 <jc> and at low voltage, it seems to switch off
Dec 16 20:28:10 <LostInSpace> well this is the thing
Dec 16 20:28:16 <LostInSpace> u have to find the voltage that the chip still works
Dec 16 20:28:19 <LostInSpace> and that it hickups
Dec 16 20:28:31 <LostInSpace> sometimes it'll take 10 hours for the hickup to happen when you are passing the command
Dec 16 20:28:33 <jc> I think it has brown out detection at a safe level
Dec 16 20:28:35 <LostInSpace> which is a pain in the arse
Dec 16 20:28:53 <LostInSpace> jc, depends tho
Dec 16 20:29:03 <LostInSpace> i had a POV project i complete with a pic16f628
Dec 16 20:29:16 <jc> oh don't get me started on pics :)
Dec 16 20:29:20 <LostInSpace> and when i programmed the chip with boden it wouldn't start on 3v (two 1.5volt batts)
Dec 16 20:29:45 <LostInSpace> but if i took my variable psu I could power the chip up at 5 and then lower it to under the brown out voltage and the chip still worked
Dec 16 20:29:46 <LostInSpace> lol
Dec 16 20:29:56 <jc> thats not necessarily 3V, I think one cell goes as low as 1.1V when discharging
Dec 16 20:29:57 <LostInSpace> wada brown out defective detectors those have
Dec 16 20:30:05 <LostInSpace> i was giving an example
Dec 16 20:30:15 <LostInSpace> i wanted to run my project on 3volts (which i knew the chip could handle)
Dec 16 20:30:22 <LostInSpace> yet somehow it was refusing to 
Dec 16 20:30:25 <LostInSpace> i later found out
Dec 16 20:30:34 <LostInSpace> my willem software wasn't writting the correct config bits
Dec 16 20:30:39 <LostInSpace> and wasn't disabling boden
Dec 16 20:30:48 <jc> well the thing is, 1.5V battery doesn't have 1.5V all the time
Dec 16 20:30:55 <jc> actually its a minimum amount of time, if ever
Dec 16 20:31:13 <LostInSpace> jc that's not my point silly =P
Dec 16 20:31:30 <jc> oh
Dec 16 20:31:52 <LostInSpace> my point is i think the 16f628 is locked at like 4.5volts of brown out threshhold
Dec 16 20:32:05 <jc> and what was the setting ?
Dec 16 20:32:08 <LostInSpace> i could power up the chip with 5volts on variable psu then lower it down to 4volts and the chip would work
Dec 16 20:32:28 <LostInSpace> yet boden should've tripped out at 4.5volts (dunno if it's 4.5volts i don't fully remembre)
Dec 16 20:32:32 <jc> I can't beleive it could be 0.5V off
Dec 16 20:32:36 <LostInSpace> but i do know it has a fixed boden
Dec 16 20:32:41 <jc> maybe there were other factors
Dec 16 20:32:45 <LostInSpace> actually all of the ones i had could go lower then 4.5volts
Dec 16 20:32:47 <jc> like power saving once the chip was on
Dec 16 20:33:06 <LostInSpace> anynways i did this to see thill when it stopped
Dec 16 20:33:14 <LostInSpace> usualy 3.9volts the chip would stop responding
Dec 16 20:33:51 <LostInSpace> so i was confused i wanted to use my software and microchip with 2 1.5volt batts and once it worked switch to 2 3volt lithium coin cells
Dec 16 20:34:01 <jc> but pics are bad for your health anyway... even if brainded on the hardware side too or not
Dec 16 20:34:24 <LostInSpace> see my issue was the pdf said
Dec 16 20:34:30 <LostInSpace> even if i didn't used the L (low voltage one
Dec 16 20:35:00 <LostInSpace> it should still operate at (taking this from pdf right now to be exact)
Dec 16 20:35:25 <LostInSpace> 3.0v to 5.5v...and L version (low voltage) 2.0 to 5.5v
Dec 16 20:35:25 <jc> you could have got there a temporary boost by using a inductor, hopefully long enough to get the chip running
Dec 16 20:35:43 <LostInSpace> i don't like going the booster way for a small project
Dec 16 20:35:48 <LostInSpace> that i want on the cheappppp cheap side
Dec 16 20:35:54 <jc> just for the start up
Dec 16 20:36:00 <jc> a simple inductor on the vcc ;)
Dec 16 20:36:04 <LostInSpace> for the startup i went variable PSU
Dec 16 20:36:11 <LostInSpace> anyways i wasn't testing boden
Dec 16 20:36:23 <LostInSpace> i was wanting to see if the program worked and why didn't work at 3.0volts like the pdf said
Dec 16 20:36:32 <LostInSpace> sratched my head more and more
Dec 16 20:37:05 <jc> you can start up AVR on a way lower voltage than expected too
Dec 16 20:37:14 <LostInSpace> well the issue was
Dec 16 20:37:14 <jc> but some stuff won't work
Dec 16 20:37:16 <jc> thats bad
Dec 16 20:37:21 <LostInSpace> i didn't know why it didn't wanna start
Dec 16 20:37:28 <LostInSpace> at 3.0volts as it should've
Dec 16 20:37:41 <LostInSpace> and that's when i started investigating with other pic16f628 i had lying around
Dec 16 20:37:51 <LostInSpace> discovering they all magicaly triggered off at the same voltage
Dec 16 20:38:03 <LostInSpace> at first i discarded boden since voltage was below boden
Dec 16 20:38:10 <LostInSpace> and I hadn't programmed boden
Dec 16 20:38:26 <jc> but you got your fuses wrong, as I get it
Dec 16 20:38:40 <LostInSpace> well i didn't
Dec 16 20:38:46 <LostInSpace> the sivava willem software had them wrong
Dec 16 20:38:50 <LostInSpace> and still do as of today
Dec 16 20:38:55 <LostInSpace> even tho i sent them manyyyyyy god damn emails
Dec 16 20:38:59 <jc> bad for them
Dec 16 20:39:04 <jc> do your own programming equipment ;)
Dec 16 20:39:06 <LostInSpace> but i love the programmer and it's compatible with pony prog and others
Dec 16 20:39:17 <jc> I had piccolo for pic
Dec 16 20:39:25 <jc> after that I did custom programmers
Dec 16 20:39:33 <jc> because of its obviously crappy design
Dec 16 20:39:40 <jc> I got disappointed
Dec 16 20:40:40 <LostInSpace> well the willem has an astonishingly good hardware design
Dec 16 20:40:48 <LostInSpace> cheap cheap and i've programmed so many devices
Dec 16 20:40:53 <jc> they try to say they've got the greatest equipment on earth for programming anything but still they can't power of paralle port and use crappy 7805 on 12V line (!)
Dec 16 20:40:59 <LostInSpace> even some that aren't supported (my friends bios update failed hahaha )
Dec 16 20:41:13 <LostInSpace> the willem i have uses usb power
Dec 16 20:41:29 <jc> anyway pics aren't good for your health ;)
Dec 16 20:41:37 <LostInSpace> they hurt my head
Dec 16 20:41:41 <LostInSpace> but they were cheap when i got them
Dec 16 20:41:42 <jc> memory paging is so backwards
Dec 16 20:41:47 <LostInSpace> mind you i do like programming in ASM
Dec 16 20:41:47 <jc> same here
Dec 16 20:41:51 <jc> me too
Dec 16 20:42:01 <LostInSpace> http://www.sivava.com/EPROM_Programmer_4.html
Dec 16 20:42:03 <LostInSpace> thats what i gots
Dec 16 20:42:16 <LostInSpace> and trust me
Dec 16 20:42:42 <jc> huh.. EPROM programmer ?
Dec 16 20:43:44 <jc> oh it can do pics too
Dec 16 20:44:46 <jc> I did all my programming with ICSP or whatever it was called anyway
Dec 16 20:44:54 <jc> so I had just a simple cable passthrough
Dec 16 20:45:21 <LostInSpace> at work i have 4 port jtags (for jtagging) and bitbang flash programmers (dataio)
Dec 16 20:45:27 <LostInSpace> i made the work buy some of those sivava
Dec 16 20:45:35 <LostInSpace> for 300$ you program alot of stuff
Dec 16 20:45:43 <jc> you work with those things ?
Dec 16 20:45:55 <LostInSpace> yup
Dec 16 20:46:02 <jc> what kinda work you do? ;)
Dec 16 20:46:02 <LostInSpace> mostly data IO for programming tho
Dec 16 20:46:08 <LostInSpace> cause willems are 2 slow
Dec 16 20:46:15 <LostInSpace> but for home uses
Dec 16 20:46:28 <LostInSpace> and it has an ICSP connect on their 2
Dec 16 20:46:39 <LostInSpace> scroll down the page for a liste of supported chips
Dec 16 20:47:20 <jc> PIC16F84(A) were the stuff of my programming days
Dec 16 20:47:29 <jc> the cheapest available but still pretty expensive
Dec 16 20:47:36 <jc> nowadays avrs are even much cheaper here
Dec 16 20:47:48 <jc> they finally got here and gained popularity in homebrew
Dec 16 20:48:01 <LostInSpace> yu
Dec 16 20:48:03 <LostInSpace> yup
Dec 16 20:48:07 <LostInSpace> 16f628 is their new equivalent
Dec 16 20:48:11 <LostInSpace> well their old new equiv
Dec 16 20:48:15 <LostInSpace> not is' like 16f628A or something
Dec 16 20:48:43 <jc> I remember when I had to do UART emulation in software cuz it didn't have a port, lol
Dec 16 20:48:55 <LostInSpace> that sucked
Dec 16 20:49:02 <LostInSpace> at least the 16f628 had one =)
Dec 16 20:49:03 <jc> nowadays just seeing a response on pc terminal doesn't get you all excited anymore
Dec 16 20:49:10 <LostInSpace> nah 2 easy
Dec 16 20:49:18 <jc> just have a right crystal
Dec 16 20:49:29 <LostInSpace> anywahs like i said the willem from sivava works pretty well for cheap
Dec 16 20:49:45 <LostInSpace> i've restored many dead pcs (bios update corrupted/failed)
Dec 16 20:49:45 <jc> I was dumb then so I used a micro without hardware uart and with 4MHz crystal :D
Dec 16 20:49:57 <LostInSpace> even asus crash free bios (it fails miserably on my friends board hahaha)
Dec 16 20:49:58 <jc> that means 1MHz in PIC-speak lol
Dec 16 20:50:10 <LostInSpace> well now with the built int 4mhz crystal
Dec 16 20:50:14 <LostInSpace> still means 1mhz =P
Dec 16 20:50:36 <LostInSpace> 4mhz internal clock
Dec 16 20:50:37 <jc> AVRs divide by two but they have onboard pll multiplier
Dec 16 20:50:42 <LostInSpace> divivde by 4 to get instruction cycle
Dec 16 20:50:57 <LostInSpace> i even had my pics intenal osc noted down
Dec 16 20:51:02 <LostInSpace> since i was doing freq gens
Dec 16 20:51:06 <jc> so the instruction cycle is as long as period of the crystal
Dec 16 20:51:07 <jc> thats neat
Dec 16 20:51:13 <LostInSpace> thank god the hp oscilloscope here was precise hahaha
Dec 16 20:51:16 <jc> and you get up to 20MHz
Dec 16 20:51:19 <LostInSpace> yeah
Dec 16 20:51:20 <jc> suck on that, microschip ;)
Dec 16 20:51:21 <LostInSpace> AVR for the win!
Dec 16 20:51:28 <jc> *microchip
Dec 16 20:52:09 <SpeedEvil> Other fun device. http://stmcircle.com/
Dec 16 20:52:21 <SpeedEvil> 23 bit microprocessor, LCD, accelerometer, all for $50 US
Dec 16 20:52:41 <jc> SpeedEvil: lookup error
Dec 16 20:52:44 <LostInSpace> don't you mean
Dec 16 20:52:47 <LostInSpace> stm32circle.com?
Dec 16 20:52:50 <SpeedEvil> yeah
Dec 16 20:52:51 <SpeedEvil> that
Dec 16 20:53:15 <SpeedEvil> Oh - there's a new one that's not round
Dec 16 20:53:18 <jc> oooh cortex
Dec 16 20:53:22 <jc> isn't that the arm core ?
Dec 16 20:53:26 <SpeedEvil> yes
Dec 16 20:53:28 <SpeedEvil> no MMU
Dec 16 20:53:32 <jc> the one that got me soooo greatly excited
Dec 16 20:53:36 <LostInSpace> god dang it
Dec 16 20:53:43 <jc> that it came in hobbbyist friendly packages
Dec 16 20:53:47 <LostInSpace> downloaded angstrom.dev
Dec 16 20:53:48 <SpeedEvil> But ~70MHz 200k of ROM, 20K of RAM in a 4*4mm package
Dec 16 20:53:53 <LostInSpace> that has s3c24xx-gpio_svn.bb
Dec 16 20:54:01 <SpeedEvil> jc: QFN is nice to solder :)
Dec 16 20:54:03 <jc> and when I read a first datasheet I came across, discovered its a goddamn harvard architecture? :P
Dec 16 20:54:04 <LostInSpace> same SRC URI as mwester gave...failes to fetch as well
Dec 16 20:54:45 <SpeedEvil> jc: sort-of.
Dec 16 20:55:06 <jc> shame anyways
Dec 16 20:55:08 <LostInSpace> seems to be the same as gpio.c tho
Dec 16 20:55:09 <SpeedEvil> jc: it's by default haarvard, you can run code from RAM space, it's just slower as you get bus contention
Dec 16 20:55:12 <LostInSpace> so i'll go with that
Dec 16 20:55:35 <jc> oh
Dec 16 20:55:36 <LostInSpace> jc, to answer your question
Dec 16 20:55:48 <LostInSpace> jc, i work with semiconductor inventory and we have a semiconductor lab
Dec 16 20:56:16 <LostInSpace> jc, XRF machines...quad pod jtags...data io programmers...environmental chambers...tape and reel makes etc etc
Dec 16 20:56:20 <jc> well in 8051 you can too copy code over to external ram and switch it over gpio to be a program memory
Dec 16 20:56:29 <jc> that doesn't make it von neumann'
Dec 16 20:56:35 <LostInSpace> Which I use for alot of personnal projects or arguments when the time comes hahaha
Dec 16 20:57:15 <jc> LostInSpace: nice, I'd love to work with MCUs too :P
Dec 16 20:57:17 <LostInSpace> IE my brother when he was a kid had a golden looking pokemon card and my mother was sure it wasn't gold plated) and I was...slammed it in the XRF and voila AU % pops up! mouhahah
Dec 16 20:57:35 <jc> but here in Czech Republic, programming sucks so I think I'll be a train engineer
Dec 16 20:57:36 <LostInSpace> mind you the XRF devices we have aren't the best
Dec 16 20:58:10 <jc> lol
Dec 16 20:58:16 * mwester wants to be in the circus when he grows up.
Dec 16 20:58:57 <LostInSpace> bombarding stuff with X-rays is always fun
Dec 16 20:59:05 * jc wants to drive trains two days a week and spend all the money and raises other train engineers got admitted due to constantly rebelling on hacking and writing programs for fun :P
Dec 16 20:59:20 <mwester> Microwave ovens work pretty well when yo udon't have XRF thingies.
Dec 16 20:59:55 <LostInSpace> lol
Dec 16 21:00:03 <LostInSpace> yes but XRF tells you approximatly what's in the thingy
Dec 16 21:00:09 <LostInSpace> while the microwave oven just melts it
Dec 16 21:00:21 <LostInSpace> unless you're making grape plasma in the microwave oven
Dec 16 21:00:23 <jc> oh, thats just a side effect
Dec 16 21:00:25 <LostInSpace> then that's fun 2
Dec 16 21:00:34 <LostInSpace> x-ray fluorescense is nice!
Dec 16 21:01:13 <LostInSpace> we mostly use it for RoHS purposes
Dec 16 21:01:35 <jc> ahh who came up with that genius thing
Dec 16 21:01:43 <LostInSpace> europeans
Dec 16 21:01:50 <LostInSpace> and then china decided to make their own
Dec 16 21:01:56 <jc> you really get to love the crappy green soldering lead
Dec 16 21:02:01 <LostInSpace> but in small prints omit all kids toys from their RoHS jurisdiction lol
Dec 16 21:02:10 <LostInSpace> no lead!
Dec 16 21:02:11 <jc> well I certainly didn't vote for it
Dec 16 21:02:15 <LostInSpace> crappy grean soldering compound
Dec 16 21:02:18 <jc> dunno hows it called in english
Dec 16 21:02:20 <jc> yeah
Dec 16 21:02:30 <jc> right right... no lead :D :D: D
Dec 16 21:02:31 <LostInSpace> Restriction Of Hazardous Substances
Dec 16 21:02:42 <LostInSpace> well it really depends what kinda soldering alloy you choose
Dec 16 21:02:47 <LostInSpace> some aren't as bad as others
Dec 16 21:02:50 <jc> I meant the wire-ish thing you solder with :P
Dec 16 21:02:58 <LostInSpace> mind you all lead free alloys look like you just did a cold solder
Dec 16 21:03:02 <jc> they teach us RoHS in school too
Dec 16 21:03:04 <LostInSpace> and it's been oxidizing for 10 years
Dec 16 21:03:04 <jc> bastards
Dec 16 21:03:19 <LostInSpace> jc soldering alloy =)
Dec 16 21:03:27 <jc> all right then :D
Dec 16 21:03:27 <LostInSpace> trust me i'm against the lead free in some ways
Dec 16 21:03:55 <jc> hobbyists hardly pollute environment with soldering more than all the corporations large factories :P
Dec 16 21:04:23 <jc> and still only soldering alloy available here in hobbyist shop is pb-free
Dec 16 21:04:42 <jc> to make your life miserable even after work
Dec 16 21:04:50 <SpeedEvil> jc: shops - generally - suck everywhere.
Dec 16 21:05:01 <SpeedEvil> jc: that's why there is the internet
Dec 16 21:05:02 <jc> well they don't suck for everything, they actually try :)
Dec 16 21:05:11 <jc> getting general components there is great
Dec 16 21:05:13 <jc> very cheap
Dec 16 21:05:22 <jc> like resistors, caps, inductors, switches, leds, all the stuff
Dec 16 21:05:25 <jc> even avrs are ok
Dec 16 21:05:29 <SpeedEvil> great.
Dec 16 21:05:40 <jc> but for everything smarter, like large memories or cpus you have to use internet thats true
Dec 16 21:05:53 <jc> from practices, sd cards are great cheap large memories for mcus
Dec 16 21:05:58 <jc> *practice
Dec 16 21:06:34 <jc> goddamn 1 Mbit NAND full of errors costs more than a 2GB SD card here
Dec 16 21:07:52 <jc> also the pads just beg for soldering :))
Dec 16 21:09:45 <Wonka> i'd like a quite big nor flash for XIP kernel, busybox, and some more stuff
Dec 16 21:10:06 <Wonka> appropriately fast, of course
Dec 16 21:10:09 <jc> sd cards transparently remap..
Dec 16 21:10:15 <Wonka> or mram
Dec 16 21:10:15 <jc> thats neat too
Dec 16 21:10:24 <jc> hey are mrams already available? :)
Dec 16 21:10:44 <Wonka> re sdcards: nak. i'd rather access raw flash there with an appropriate flash fs.
Dec 16 21:11:22 <jc> they're really simple to worth with with the alternative interface
Dec 16 21:11:43 <jc> well I never considered NORs or NANDs as an option
Dec 16 21:12:00 <jc> another accessible storage for hobbyists are old IDE hard drives
Dec 16 21:12:11 <jc> simple command set, slow enough interface
Dec 16 21:12:35 <jc> on ARM you could memory map them
Dec 16 21:12:39 <jc> via memory abort in
Dec 16 21:12:41 <jc> int
Dec 16 21:13:04 <jc> assuming your cpu can protect pages
Dec 16 21:13:07 <Wonka> hmm... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mram sounds nice...
Dec 16 21:13:24 <lindi-> jc: but simple avr probably does not have mmu?
Dec 16 21:13:34 <jc> lindi- nope in avr its impossible
Dec 16 21:13:46 <jc> except some that have external bus
Dec 16 21:13:50 <jc> and the trick there? quite simple
Dec 16 21:13:52 <jc> you get a second avr
Dec 16 21:13:58 <jc> hook it to the bus
Dec 16 21:14:03 <jc> and hook it to the drive
Dec 16 21:14:09 <jc> and program it to act as pass through
Dec 16 21:14:11 <jc> you get the idea ;)
Dec 16 21:14:13 <Wonka> mram in mobile phones would be _so_ nice for suspending
Dec 16 21:14:50 <lindi-> would be cool to have custom avr running inside freerunner caes
Dec 16 21:15:03 <jc> why so? arm is nice to program too
Dec 16 21:15:12 <lindi-> jc: but eats more power?
Dec 16 21:15:25 <jc> arm7tdmi actually eats lot less in some cases
Dec 16 21:15:34 <lindi-> the custom avr could talk to the GPS chip and act as a data logger while keeping the main cpu in suspend
Dec 16 21:15:42 <jc> it could
Dec 16 21:15:49 <jc> you'd have to tap to gps uart by the avr
Dec 16 21:15:50 <lindi-> jc: ok then we just need to do lots of linux development to save power on the main cpu
Dec 16 21:15:59 <jc> you could talk to avr via i2c for example
Dec 16 21:16:17 <Wonka> and avr could talk to ublox5 via i2c too
Dec 16 21:16:26 <jc> yeah it doesn't make sense to add an avr
Dec 16 21:16:34 <Wonka> ublox5 has usb too
Dec 16 21:16:43 <Wonka> just use usb, scrap serial
Dec 16 21:16:44 <jc> if you let the soc do simple commands on them and sleep for the rest of time you get much more power saving
Dec 16 21:16:56 <jc> its not just how it works with linux
Dec 16 21:17:00 <jc> thats a general purpose os
Dec 16 21:17:07 <jc> you get task switching all the time
Dec 16 21:17:34 <lindi-> jc: afaik even slow mode has not been used yet
Dec 16 21:17:49 <jc> I think they use idle mode in idle loops
Dec 16 21:18:06 <jc> and cpufreq scaling isn't implemented afaik
Dec 16 21:18:14 <jc> actually I wanted to do some work on that sometime
Dec 16 21:18:42 <lindi-> that'd be very useful :)
Dec 16 21:19:02 <LostInSpace> awesome
Dec 16 21:19:07 <LostInSpace> gpio.c will work very nicely
Dec 16 21:19:13 <jc> I have no problems with the soc
Dec 16 21:19:17 <jc> its just the kernel
Dec 16 21:19:27 <jc> don't understand it yet...
Dec 16 21:19:53 <jc> you have to notify everything clock has been changed and stuff
Dec 16 21:19:55 <lindi-> jc: can you write custom program that acts as a data logger and does not need linux?
Dec 16 21:20:14 <jc> lindi-: why not? ;)
Dec 16 21:20:17 <lindi-> just boot it directly with uboot
Dec 16 21:20:24 <jc> you can up it over USB DFU to memory
Dec 16 21:20:25 <jc> and boot it
Dec 16 21:20:28 <lindi-> forget display and all that stuff
Dec 16 21:20:42 <jc> well actually with uboot you can't forget display and all that stuff
Dec 16 21:20:49 <jc> you have to turn them off if you want to save power ;)
Dec 16 21:20:53 <lindi-> ah true
Dec 16 21:21:03 <lindi-> but we can ask uboot to do it
Dec 16 21:21:10 <lindi-> so that the payload can be simple
Dec 16 21:21:22 <jc> then you accidentaly write it to nor and have yourself a fancy neo brick
Dec 16 21:21:36 <lindi-> i thought writing to nor was not possible?
Dec 16 21:21:49 <jc> someone says yes, someone says no
Dec 16 21:21:53 <jc> I don't know personally
Dec 16 21:22:00 <jc> over JTAG its definitely possible
Dec 16 21:22:09 <lindi-> also with debug board it can be rescued
Dec 16 21:22:14 <jc> brb
Dec 16 21:23:51 <LostInSpace> JTAG ftw
Dec 16 21:23:59 <LostInSpace> had no choice to find out the jtag pin outs on the gps i'm messing with
Dec 16 21:24:24 <LostInSpace> was fun! (thank god 4 ports need 10kpull resistors)
Dec 16 21:24:30 <LostInSpace> made my job of finding the possible pins easier =)
Dec 16 21:24:33 <Wonka> ah, that's why you're LostInSpace 
Dec 16 21:24:53 <Wonka> *duck*
Dec 16 21:24:56 <LostInSpace> Wonka, lol
Dec 16 21:25:09 <LostInSpace> no worries I have some sorta sense of humor hidden somewhere =)
Dec 16 21:25:22 <Wonka>   File "evas.c_evas_object_smart.pxi", line 184, in evas.c_evas.EvasSmartObjectMeta.__init__ (evas/evas.c_evas.c:29553)
Dec 16 21:25:25 <Wonka> SystemError: NULL result without error in PyObject_Call
Dec 16 21:25:28 <Wonka> wtf?
Dec 16 21:25:30 <LostInSpace> and right now /dev/senseofhumoer -> /dev/random
Dec 16 21:35:17 <LostInSpace> well hopefully gpio.c will help me figure out why anything i plug in to usb ports turns out not responding
Dec 16 21:35:49 <LostInSpace> used devmem2 to edit misccr to put 2nd usb port in host mode and anything i plug in error -62 as well w00t
Dec 16 21:35:56 <LostInSpace> wish me luck
Dec 16 21:36:47 <LostInSpace> http://svn.openmoko.org/trunk/src/target/gpio/README <--- The pin state can be followed by "R", which indicates that the
Dec 16 21:36:47 <LostInSpace> corresponding pull-down resistor is active.
Dec 16 21:36:53 <LostInSpace> don't they mean pull-up resistor?
Dec 16 21:37:23 <pb_> yeah, probably
Dec 16 21:37:26 <LostInSpace> oh yeah they mean pull up
Dec 16 21:37:33 <pb_> crazy samsung keep switching between pull-ups and pull-downs
Dec 16 21:37:41 <LostInSpace> pb_, really?
Dec 16 21:37:58 <LostInSpace> well for the s3c2410 it's pull up at least according to the GPXUP port configs
Dec 16 21:37:59 <LostInSpace> lol
Dec 16 21:38:13 <LostInSpace> mind you i thought using pull downs is considered a big nono now adays
Dec 16 21:38:24 <pb_> yeah, really.  s3c2410 has pull-up resistors: set the bit in GPxUP to disable them.
Dec 16 21:38:25 <LostInSpace> a try to avoid case
Dec 16 21:38:40 <pb_> s3c2412 has pull-down resistors instead, though again the same register bit disables them.
Dec 16 21:38:49 <pb_> I'm not quite sure what s3c2442 has offhand
Dec 16 21:38:56 <LostInSpace> the gpio.c was made for s3c2442 (so far seems to match my s3c2410 except i don't have port J)
Dec 16 21:39:06 <lindi-> LostInSpace: why are they nono?
Dec 16 21:39:23 <LostInSpace> lindi-, a big NO NO means something you're not supposed to do/avoid
Dec 16 21:42:53 <lindi-> LostInSpace: yes but why should you avoid pulldowns?
Dec 16 21:46:45 <Wonka> http://bugs.debian.org/508710 hit me too
Dec 16 21:48:25 <Dave> :o
Dec 16 21:53:54 <jc> LostInSpace: the fr soc has pull-downs
Dec 16 21:54:37 <LostInSpace> jc that's weird
Dec 16 21:54:58 <LostInSpace> afaik i was always told pull downs were only good for TTL
Dec 16 21:55:00 <jc> yeah, not used to them either
Dec 16 21:55:18 <jc> it has cmos levels afaik
Dec 16 21:55:23 <LostInSpace> afaik depending on your devices 0/1 thresholds i guess
Dec 16 21:55:31 <SpeedEvil> los: err - no
Dec 16 21:55:43 <LostInSpace> SpeedEvil, care to elaborate =)
Dec 16 21:55:52 <jc> PORT PULL-DOWN REGISTER (GPBDN-GPJDN)
Dec 16 21:55:52 <jc> The port pull-down register controls the pull-down resister enable/disable of each port group. When the
Dec 16 21:55:52 <jc> corresponding bit is 0, the pull-down resister of the pin is enabled. When 1, the pull-down resister is disabled.
Dec 16 21:55:52 <jc> If the port pull-down register is enabled then the pull-down resisters work without pin?s functional setting(input,
Dec 16 21:55:53 <jc> output, DATAn, EINTn and etc)
Dec 16 21:55:59 <SpeedEvil> pull-ups and pull-downs are used to connect external devices that may not have defined logic levels all the time.
Dec 16 21:56:04 <SpeedEvil> For example.
Dec 16 21:56:09 <LostInSpace> i know that silly
Dec 16 21:56:09 <jc> yeah
Dec 16 21:56:13 <LostInSpace> you don't want a port in a floating state
Dec 16 21:56:21 <CIA-67> openmoko: 03werner * r4876 10/developers/werner/greg/ds.pl: Dumper for raw whitespace-separated hex bytes.
Dec 16 21:56:28 <LostInSpace> afaik it depends on your 0/1 threshold levels to know if you can use pull-downs
Dec 16 21:56:29 <jc> LostInSpace: what country are you from? ;)
Dec 16 21:56:32 <SpeedEvil> If you have a button connected between + and the input, then you enable the pull-down on that input, then you don't need an external resistor.
Dec 16 21:56:45 <LostInSpace> aka a 5volt core using anything under 0.8volt = 0 and anything abovr 4volt = 1
Dec 16 21:56:51 <jc> SpeedEvil: us losers with avrs are used to pull ups
Dec 16 21:56:57 <SpeedEvil> They also keep the voltage at a high or low level if nothing else is driving it.
Dec 16 21:56:58 <jc> so we have 'pushed' state as logic 0
Dec 16 21:57:06 <LostInSpace> actually
Dec 16 21:57:09 <LostInSpace> a pull-down/up
Dec 16 21:57:13 <LostInSpace> is only used for 2 functions
Dec 16 21:57:15 <jc> SpeedEvil: and how do you debounce them? ;P
Dec 16 21:57:18 <LostInSpace> stop the pin from being in a floating state
Dec 16 21:57:25 <SpeedEvil> If a voltage drifts out of being close to either supply, then it also means that an input uses more power
Dec 16 21:57:27 <LostInSpace> and 2 stop it from being a short when pushed to the opposite state
Dec 16 21:57:27 <SpeedEvil> jc: software
Dec 16 21:57:32 <jc> nasty
Dec 16 21:57:39 <SpeedEvil> jc: A) nasty.
Dec 16 21:57:40 <jc> in a soc running linux
Dec 16 21:57:42 <jc> thats not cool at all
Dec 16 21:57:48 <SpeedEvil> jc: B) free.
Dec 16 21:58:08 <LostInSpace> like i said stop from being in a floating point status...and stop it from being in a short status when opposite is applied
Dec 16 21:58:09 <jc> well guess its only a little fraction of procesing power
Dec 16 21:58:14 <jc> if you check them slow enough
Dec 16 21:58:18 <SpeedEvil> jc: if you've got 10 buttons, and debouncing in hardware takes $.01 per, and you're making tens of thousands of these, it's not a no-brainer.
Dec 16 21:58:25 <jc> 10 buttons? :P
Dec 16 21:58:31 <jc> afaik fr has 2
Dec 16 21:58:32 <SpeedEvil> jc: done right, it's interrupts.
Dec 16 21:58:34 <LostInSpace> obviously if your using a pull up and the button grounds the VCC that's a short scenario (but the pull-up resistor stops you from using more then 0.1ma) in average
Dec 16 21:58:36 <jc> maybe + headphone jacks
Dec 16 21:58:41 <LostInSpace> thus why 10k pull ups are mostly the standard
Dec 16 21:58:47 <jc> SpeedEvil thats even more nasty, you get multiple useless interrupts
Dec 16 21:59:05 <LostInSpace> the question is I was always told to stay away from pull down
Dec 16 21:59:06 <SpeedEvil> jc: interrupts - done right - take under a microsecond.
Dec 16 21:59:11 <LostInSpace> since you can have floating grounds
Dec 16 21:59:23 <LostInSpace> causing your known state to become unknown
Dec 16 21:59:30 <jc> you could but I guess since theyre not always pushed guess that overally gets better than checking them periodically
Dec 16 21:59:38 <SpeedEvil> LostInSpace: were you taught this back in the mists of time?
Dec 16 21:59:43 <SpeedEvil> LostInSpace: ~1980
Dec 16 21:59:45 <LostInSpace> SpeedEvil, lol
Dec 16 21:59:48 <LostInSpace> look at trains
Dec 16 21:59:56 <LostInSpace> even today they have floating ground issues =)
Dec 16 22:00:04 <LostInSpace> mist of 2008 beginning of 2009 =)
Dec 16 22:00:06 <SpeedEvil> LostInSpace: TTL logic typically had _very_ weak pull-ups compared to pull down.
Dec 16 22:00:17 <SpeedEvil> LostInSpace: at least in many families.
Dec 16 22:00:59 <jc> trains ?
Dec 16 22:01:01 <LostInSpace> SpeedEvil, I would love to continue this conversation with you but I have to go =( sorry about that
Dec 16 22:01:07 <LostInSpace> SpeedEvil, hopefully we can resume this later =)
Dec 16 22:01:09 <SpeedEvil> ##electronics
Dec 16 22:01:13 <SpeedEvil> also
Dec 16 22:01:15 <SpeedEvil> wave
Dec 16 22:01:42 <jc> well afaik a simple MOSFET requieres about 1M resistor on gate to be safely pulled up
Dec 16 22:01:57 <SpeedEvil> jc: you mean a power MOSFET?
Dec 16 22:01:59 <jc> or maybe down
Dec 16 22:02:01 <jc> nope
Dec 16 22:02:03 <LostInSpace> SpeedEvil, before I go please note I'm not dismissing your answer just debating and trying to see whats what =)
Dec 16 22:02:05 <jc> a regular cheap one
Dec 16 22:02:10 <jc> switching one of course
Dec 16 22:02:22 <SpeedEvil> jc: 1M is _way_ lower than the impedence of the gate.
Dec 16 22:02:32 <SpeedEvil> jc: leakage is tiny, even at elevated temperatures.
Dec 16 22:02:39 <jc> afaik, its not :)
Dec 16 22:02:47 <jc> I have tried it on breadboard
Dec 16 22:02:53 <Wonka> jc: trains need to be rebooted sometimes too... 
Dec 16 22:03:03 <jc> I made a simple MOSFET switch on breadbord with LED
Dec 16 22:03:10 <SpeedEvil> jc: Ah. Breadboard. The board of lies!
Dec 16 22:03:26 <Wonka> jc: today, a german ICE train had to rebooted because of a GPF, took about 30mins
Dec 16 22:03:27 <jc> pulling gate up with 1M resistor safely held it up
Dec 16 22:03:27 <SpeedEvil> jc: breadboard has several problems.
Dec 16 22:03:42 <jc> touching it and stuff then didn't affect the leds status
Dec 16 22:03:57 <jc> I consider that a safe pull up for my purposes ;)
Dec 16 22:04:22 <SpeedEvil> Sjc: ure - but that's not really relevant to actual circuit design.
Dec 16 22:04:43 <SpeedEvil> jc: you design to the components - if the user decides to poke with fingers, they deserve all they gett.
Dec 16 22:05:17 <jc> what problems does breadbord have ?
Dec 16 22:05:30 <jc> they don't teach us that kinda stuff here
Dec 16 22:05:35 <SpeedEvil> Ok. BUZ10 - a common - but somewhat older FET. gate-source leakage current is a max of 100nA, with 10nA being typical at 20V
Dec 16 22:05:45 <jc> thats huge
Dec 16 22:05:55 <jc> mine has max 10nA
Dec 16 22:06:03 <jc> BS170
Dec 16 22:06:17 <Sargun> I found a workaround for the charging problem.
Dec 16 22:06:44 <Sargun> Add these two lines to your crontab:
Dec 16 22:06:45 <Sargun> * * * * *	root	echo 500 > /sys/devices/platform/s3c2440-i2c/i2c-adapter/i2c-0/0-0073/force_usb_limit_dangerous 
Dec 16 22:06:45 <Sargun> * * * * *	root	echo -n "fast_cccv" > /sys/devices/platform/s3c2440-i2c/i2c-adapter/i2c-0/0-0073/chgmode
Dec 16 22:06:56 <jc> that translates to about 500 Gohm
Dec 16 22:07:00 <jc> M
Dec 16 22:07:02 <jc> Mohm
Dec 16 22:07:12 <Sargun> jc, that's in Mw isn't it?
Dec 16 22:07:32 <jc> the leakage? thats in ampers, its current
Dec 16 22:07:38 <Sargun> oh.
Dec 16 22:07:48 <Sargun> I thought you were talking about what I was talking about
Dec 16 22:07:56 <jc> oh sorry, nope
Dec 16 22:07:58 <SpeedEvil> jc: A) intermittent connections - not so bad with new breadboard and clean components. B) there is 10-15pF between each adjacent line of connectors. C) poor ground and power distribution.
Dec 16 22:08:20 <jc> SpeedEvil ok, whats A about ?
Dec 16 22:08:55 <SpeedEvil> jc: hte connections on the  breadboard get dirty and bent with use. Eventually they don't always make contact. So the component you push into the hole may not connect.
Dec 16 22:09:06 <jc> hte ?
Dec 16 22:09:10 <SpeedEvil> jc: the
Dec 16 22:09:12 <jc> oh
Dec 16 22:09:23 <jc> yes, thats true
Dec 16 22:09:41 <jc> although it didn't happen to me yet
Dec 16 22:09:58 <jc> btw
Dec 16 22:10:11 <jc> what effect has spilled coke on the breadbord ? :P
Dec 16 22:10:36 <jc> I cleaned it but theres some of the brown crap left, avrs work though
Dec 16 22:12:09 <jc> with the cappacitance, theres some capacitance between any two given points in space, wouldn't wonder about it that much
Dec 16 22:12:39 <jc> although its clear you can't use it for high freq prototyping or something
Dec 16 22:14:47 <jc> and about the poor power distribution, if you mean like losses on the lines, its not even measurable with my crappy equipment
Dec 16 22:15:46 <jc> if I had such high tech stuff at home I'd have made freerunner according the schematics and not bought it in the first place ;)
Dec 16 22:15:55 <Sargun> Hahaha
Dec 16 22:16:12 <Sargun> SpeedEvil, Did you do the A7 workaround on your F?R
Dec 16 22:16:17 <jc> but anyways I like supporting the openmoko guys
Dec 16 22:16:26 <jc> appreciate the effort a lot
Dec 16 22:17:15 <Sargun> yeah
Dec 16 22:17:40 <jc> this is hackers development in almost the real sense
Dec 16 22:17:46 <Wonka> hmmm... need to find some way to find out what i changed in my SHR install...
Dec 16 22:18:11 <jc> when companies that make the chips decide to start cooperating and release datasheets this WILL be open source
Dec 16 22:19:02 <SpeedEvil> B) catches out about a person every week or two over on ##electronics
Dec 16 22:19:25 <jc> in what sense ? ;)
Dec 16 22:19:35 <SpeedEvil> jc: sorry - had connection probs
Dec 16 22:19:41 <Sargun> fail.
Dec 16 22:19:52 <SpeedEvil> jc: coke will unfortunately rapidly corrode the contacts if it's got in there.
Dec 16 22:19:55 <SpeedEvil> jc: diet?
Dec 16 22:20:02 <jc> no, the real deal
Dec 16 22:20:11 <jc> but only over a part of it
Dec 16 22:20:13 <SpeedEvil> Sargun: I have no FR
Dec 16 22:20:20 <jc> I got a second one anyways ;)
Dec 16 22:20:37 <Sargun> SpeedEvil, oh, can you go find someone with an FR and do the workaround?
Dec 16 22:20:41 <SpeedEvil> jc: sugar will keep it wet, and the acid will make it corrode
Dec 16 22:20:43 <jc> still it works hehe
Dec 16 22:20:59 <jc> that doesn't sound cool..
Dec 16 22:21:14 <jc> but what I did with it was rather dumb I must confess
Dec 16 22:21:22 <SpeedEvil> If anyone sends me a FR, I'll try anything with it.
Dec 16 22:21:26 <Toaster`> Interesting.  Ubuntu just updated network manager... and mixing managed and unmanaged devices seems to work just fine
Dec 16 22:21:28 <jc> I ripped the bottom insulating part and removed the rails and cleaned them
Dec 16 22:21:57 <jc> well if anyone had such a large sum to spend ;)
Dec 16 22:22:20 <jc> I had to work for it too
Dec 16 22:22:28 <jc> lots of crappy php development
Dec 16 22:22:31 <jc> booooring as hell
Dec 16 22:22:36 <Toaster`> This should make usb networking easier (or at least less aggravating on ubuntu/debian systems.  
Dec 16 22:22:38 <jc> gotta love web apps
Dec 16 22:24:07 <jc> SpeedEvil you know what? you don't get a good feeling about the freerunner when peeking through the wiki or sitting here
Dec 16 22:24:16 <jc> the aura is really.. weird and not nice
Dec 16 22:24:24 <jc> but once you get it, you just LOVE that little device !
Dec 16 22:24:27 * Sargun gets out of his aura
Dec 16 22:24:39 * Sargun paints his aura black and red with spray paint
Dec 16 22:24:42 * Sargun gets back in his aura
Dec 16 22:24:46 * Sargun growls
Dec 16 22:24:52 * Sargun scares away little children.
Dec 16 22:25:02 <jc> heey don't make fun of it :P
Dec 16 22:25:13 <jc> that lawsuit thing just amplifies my argument
Dec 16 22:25:36 <jc> dumb people are not happy with theyr phones
Dec 16 22:25:47 <jc> I think it has to do with marketing
Dec 16 22:25:58 <jc> because dumb people shouldn't buy them in the first place
Dec 16 22:26:21 <jc> openmoko must have some genius marketing targeted against its developers
Dec 16 22:26:32 <Sargun> heh
Dec 16 22:26:34 <jc> just to gain high sales
Dec 16 22:26:41 <Sargun> steve mosher, no, he's harmless. 
Dec 16 22:26:43 <jc> but also, create a lot of hate in the community
Dec 16 22:26:49 <jc> flooding it with dumb people, like ubuntu
Dec 16 22:26:58 <jc> and thats what destroys the developers
Dec 16 22:26:58 <Sargun> HAhhahahahah
Dec 16 22:27:01 <jc> thus a bad aura
Dec 16 22:28:16 <jc> well, thats what I think anyway, haven't been watching it long :P
Dec 16 22:34:19 <jc> freerunner isn't a normal phone..
Dec 16 22:34:31 <jc> its more like... a dreamy arm9 devboard :P
Dec 16 22:35:10 <jc> its a nice cpu, with minimal capabilities so not overcomplicated but still has mmu so linux perfectly possible
Dec 16 22:35:29 <jc> and the datasheets just nice
Dec 16 22:36:01 <jc> all in one place, as people coming from inferior microcontrollers expect
Dec 16 22:48:02 * mwester agrees: "well, thats what I think anyway, haven't been watching it long :P"  ... it's clear jc hasn't been watching it long enough.
Dec 16 22:48:33 <mwester> I'm not going to start the raging war here, but I will say that you're wrong.
Dec 16 22:50:33 <jc> actually its good to hear
Dec 16 22:50:50 <jc> or read/ whatever
Dec 16 22:51:21 <jc> maybe its just a handfull of people who piss you off
Dec 16 22:51:32 <jc> *l
Dec 16 22:52:22 <jc> for example, I don't like the guys who wanted to sue you attitude at all
Dec 16 22:52:39 <jc> I got the idea this was a prevalent attitude in the community...
Dec 16 22:53:01 <mwester> There is a growing tide of resentment.
Dec 16 22:53:04 <mwester> For good reason.
Dec 16 22:53:23 <jc> why is that ?
Dec 16 22:53:39 <mwester> The product *was* misrepresented, Om *has* failed in numerous (almost every imaginable) way.
Dec 16 22:54:05 <mwester> The good news is that the community, and a very small number of Om employees, have come together to try to make a difference.
Dec 16 22:54:10 <mwester> But Om - they failed.
Dec 16 22:54:16 <jc> well the worst actual hardware thing I noticed was glamo
Dec 16 22:54:24 <raster> man... off the list.. onto the #
Dec 16 22:54:53 <mwester> raster:  it's been on the list for months.
Dec 16 22:55:02 <mwester> er, I mean IRC.
Dec 16 22:55:09 <raster> mwester:  well recently it's exploded :)
Dec 16 22:55:16 <raster> but i know... don't worry :)
Dec 16 22:55:21 <raster> oooh ok
Dec 16 22:55:34 <mwester> I'm only surprised that it took as long as it did to explode.
Dec 16 22:55:40 <raster> i guess its just the recent mailings are just being mirrored here :)
Dec 16 22:55:51 <raster> i am too
Dec 16 22:55:58 <mwester> The mailings mirror the sentiments first expressed here.
Dec 16 22:56:16 <raster> i can understand people
Dec 16 22:56:22 <raster> gta01 was pitched as devs only
Dec 16 22:56:25 <raster> gta02 was not
Dec 16 22:56:38 <raster> people in the community of course defend it the same way
Dec 16 22:56:51 <jc> I take gta02 as a total hacker thing
Dec 16 22:56:55 <mwester> Om has it's rabid "fanboys" just like apple does.
Dec 16 22:57:02 <jc> you can't seriously label it as a smartphone
Dec 16 22:57:03 <raster> but i know it definitely wasn't pitched that way - it was picthed ready to use
Dec 16 22:57:10 <jc> if you want a smartphone, get a crappy htc diamond
Dec 16 22:57:28 <raster> jc:  less crappy than a gta02 :)
Dec 16 22:57:33 <mwester> jc:  yes, and the frustration is from those who were lead to believe that the gta02 was, from a hardware point -of-view, a fully-ready phone.
Dec 16 22:57:36 <jc> way crappy
Dec 16 22:57:39 <jc> I had it for some time
Dec 16 22:57:44 <mwester> And Om represented it that way.
Dec 16 22:57:47 <jc> WM sucks BIG TIME
Dec 16 22:57:54 <jc> but say whatever you want, it warks
Dec 16 22:57:56 <jc> *works
Dec 16 22:58:04 <jc> you can call, you can organize your time, whatever
Dec 16 22:58:05 <mwester> And when it didn't work out, Om failed to communicate effectively with those folks.  The result is a total lack of trust anymore.
Dec 16 22:58:06 <raster> bingo
Dec 16 22:58:14 <jc> its not hackable
Dec 16 22:58:19 <jc> and as a hacker, you get to hate it
Dec 16 22:58:19 <raster> i too dont like winmo
Dec 16 22:58:32 <jc> I even TRIED to program for it in VS 
Dec 16 22:58:45 <jc> whenever I got into lib problems I just screamed mad as hell
Dec 16 22:58:49 <jc> everything so closed
Dec 16 22:58:56 <jc> the same with j2me on my former phone
Dec 16 22:58:58 <jc> fucking sandbox
Dec 16 22:59:09 <raster> but mwester is right. om didnt place any warning about the phone not working as a phone. people bought lots of them with the impression it was ready to go.
Dec 16 22:59:11 <jc> now I can twiddle leds by writing registers, finally freedom
Dec 16 22:59:31 <raster> hehehe
Dec 16 22:59:38 <raster> an open phone is a fatastic thing
Dec 16 22:59:42 <raster> its a cool idea
Dec 16 22:59:46 <raster> and it does sell
Dec 16 22:59:49 <raster> the problem is in the execution
Dec 16 22:59:58 <SpeedEvil> raster: exactly.
Dec 16 23:00:07 <SpeedEvil> raster: who do we need to execute is the question.
Dec 16 23:00:13 <Dave> potatoes
Dec 16 23:00:24 <raster> ie - hardware that works (solid phone subsystem that can sleep, wake, reliably handle all the phone  functionality and read all sim cards)
Dec 16 23:00:31 <jc> you can't hook to usb uart on diamon and control an avr project in a beautiful easily hacked pygtk interface for gods sakes
Dec 16 23:00:36 <jc> *diamond
Dec 16 23:00:39 <Dave> raster, like the treo? :)
Dec 16 23:00:45 <exactt> hey guys, short question: just trying to install scummvm on SHR... i get:  $ opkg install libvorbis
Dec 16 23:00:45 <exactt> Collected errors:
Dec 16 23:00:45 <exactt>  * Cannot find package libvorbis.
Dec 16 23:00:47 <Dave> minus the phone part :p
Dec 16 23:00:49 <raster> power management that means it'd at least last a few days - much like the n800, which never even suspends
Dec 16 23:01:00 <exactt> can anybody help? thx!
Dec 16 23:01:04 <jc> yeah
Dec 16 23:01:08 <Dave> exact: opkg search *vorbis*
Dec 16 23:01:11 <jc> it has hardware problems
Dec 16 23:01:34 <jc> they have been worked around at least to a point that the thing works
Dec 16 23:01:37 <Dave> Raster, in my opinion the treo's power management is old, and crusty, but is very impressive, comparably
Dec 16 23:01:42 <jc> the efforts appreciated a lot
Dec 16 23:01:48 <Dave> It can stay on for WEEKS and resume fine.
Dec 16 23:01:59 <Dave> no problems :)
Dec 16 23:02:29 <exactt> @Dave: thx! i guess its too late at night already... just forgot the obligatory opkg update ... thx
Dec 16 23:02:30 <raster> Dave:  hahaha right now treo doesnt suspend/resume right// but it's been hacked for fun by people. not sold as such  with linux in a working state  :)
Dec 16 23:02:32 <jc> thats all I need when I'm not hacking stuff with it :P
Dec 16 23:03:32 <jc> yeah people had even harder time with ninetndo ds
Dec 16 23:03:41 <Dave> raster, ah :p
Dec 16 23:03:43 <jc> I think they'll get it right in time
Dec 16 23:03:47 <Dave> my zires are awesome
Dec 16 23:04:02 <Wonka> today, i typed "apm -s" in a terminal in SHR, then verified tapping the screen provoked no reaction... 8 hours later, i found it shut down, with empty battery.
Dec 16 23:04:03 <Dave> cocoboot is a godsend
Dec 16 23:04:06 <jc> this is improvement over all devices mentioned so far
Dec 16 23:04:15 <jc> they give you schematics and datasheets for gods sake :)
Dec 16 23:04:30 <jc> you don't even gave to use linux on it
Dec 16 23:04:32 <Dave> haha nintendo
Dec 16 23:04:35 <mwester> jc:  you talk, but don't listen.  That's NOT the point.
Dec 16 23:04:36 <jc> whatever you hack and works
Dec 16 23:04:53 <jc> I think I didn't get it
Dec 16 23:05:55 <mwester> I know.  And I'm not going to argue.  But please respect the point of view of some others, who rightly feel that they have not been treated fairly by Om.
Dec 16 23:06:10 <Dave> Yeah, seriously :(
Dec 16 23:06:28 <Dave> Just ask the Lady Basil.
Dec 16 23:06:42 <mwester> Lady Basil is very happy with her GTA01.
Dec 16 23:06:43 <jc> you mean like they can't 'just' power it on and call with it, get on internet and stuff ?
Dec 16 23:07:01 <Dave> Mwester, and her GTA02?
Dec 16 23:07:21 <mwester> jc:  I said I'm not going to argue.  Your statement just shows that you truely do not understand.  Please accept that others have a different experience than you.
Dec 16 23:07:31 <jc> and what is that ?
Dec 16 23:07:35 <mwester> Dave:  the GTA02 is mine.  :P
Dec 16 23:07:41 <Dave> Ah :D
Dec 16 23:08:01 <jc> I accept of course, but I'm curious what the community is up to
Dec 16 23:08:09 <mwester> jc:  it's been explained.  Reread the logs for this channel for the past 6 months, re-read the mail lists if you really wish to know.  I think, however, that you just want to argue.
Dec 16 23:08:31 <jc> thats not it, where are the logs ?
Dec 16 23:08:32 * mwester goes off to get some work done.
Dec 16 23:08:49 <jc> well sorry for getting the wrong idea
Dec 16 23:08:51 * Dave offers mwester some mashed potatoes and gravy he just made on his way out
Dec 16 23:08:56 <jc> I just told you how I feel about it
Dec 16 23:11:57 <Dave> jc, if you're not busy you can get working on the wiimoko ;p
Dec 16 23:14:01 <jc> dammit my internet connection is acting up on me..
Dec 16 23:18:32 <orzo> hello
Dec 16 23:18:39 <orzo> I want to turn my phone into a laptop
Dec 16 23:18:57 <jc> Dave: wiimoko ?
Dec 16 23:19:02 <orzo> an ac adapater, keyboard, and laptop battery
Dec 16 23:19:15 <jc> well DNS is acting up on me, right now I'm stuck here and can't use google or anything
Dec 16 23:19:25 <jc> does anybode know some free dns please ?
Dec 16 23:20:18 <orzo> the laptop battery charger would be built into the keyboard and the wall outlet wire would feed into it and there'd be a male usb plug sticking up behind the keys to mount a neo on sideways
Dec 16 23:21:01 <jc> this is weird, I can't even ping this server and yet I can see what you say
Dec 16 23:21:34 <orzo> jc, are you talking to me?
Dec 16 23:21:43 <emsyr> jc: what's the problem?
Dec 16 23:21:51 <jc> oh thank god, a reply
Dec 16 23:22:01 <jc> our dns servers blacked out
Dec 16 23:22:06 <jc> but I can get to the internet
Dec 16 23:22:15 <jc> I can't find any alternative one since I can't use google
Dec 16 23:22:23 <jc> could you please give me some free dns address ?
Dec 16 23:22:40 <viq> 208.67.222.222
Dec 16 23:22:49 <jc> viq: thank you
Dec 16 23:22:54 <CVirus>  208.67.220.220 
Dec 16 23:23:11 <emsyr> Are you talkinh about connecting to Internet through FR?
Dec 16 23:23:19 <jc> hey seems to work nicely, thanks a lot :)
Dec 16 23:23:22 <jc> to both ;)
Dec 16 23:23:42 <jc> nope, my PC, i was stuck on this irc cause I didn't have dns ;)
Dec 16 23:24:14 <jc> I used to work for the provider we have now, really since I know how things are done there I wonder why I didn't already found some spare dns
Dec 16 23:24:21 <viq> opendns.com, you can go and check them out now - and trust we have not given you a poisoned dns and are now trying to make you feel everything is all right ;)
Dec 16 23:24:31 <jc> unless you can't resolve opendns.com ;)
Dec 16 23:24:49 <viq> jc: you can now since we gave you dns addresses ;P
Dec 16 23:24:59 <jc> don't worry I don't mind revealing what I resolve :D
Dec 16 23:25:03 <viq> I believe also 4.2.2.2 is a publicly available dns
Dec 16 23:25:24 <jc> if you wanted you could have easily man in the middled my wifi
Dec 16 23:25:43 <jc> I'l switch transparently to ours once theyr online
Dec 16 23:25:55 <viq> jc: that is not the worry. The worry is that you say entered mail.google.com, the site looks as it should... Yet you are entering your password on my site. Or same thing with your bank. Or whatever.
Dec 16 23:26:14 <jc> yeah, I know :)
Dec 16 23:26:18 <viq> :P
Dec 16 23:26:37 <jc> whatever if it makes you feel better
Dec 16 23:26:45 <jc> you could have also set up opendns too
Dec 16 23:27:13 <jc> its not like I can lose money or anything
Dec 16 23:29:30 <jc> lol
Dec 16 23:29:51 <jc> I went to change dhcp setting when I was at it and I got totally freaked out
Dec 16 23:30:26 <jc> I was editing dhcpd.conf and adding the dns, saved, ok, restarted dhcpd and noticed the service didn't come up
Dec 16 23:30:53 <jc> then it was a race against time to fix it before my pc tries to get a new address
Dec 16 23:31:25 <jc> turns out I forgot a dash to separate it
Dec 16 23:32:47 <jc> Dave: what did you mean by 'wiimoko' ?
Dec 16 23:33:23 <mwester> orzo:  That's a great idea!  If you add one of the USB/VGA adaptors, you might be able to drive an external display, such as a projector... 
Dec 16 23:33:48 <raster> ooooh the pain
Dec 16 23:33:51 <raster> the paaain
Dec 16 23:34:07 <raster> drive a remote framebuffer over usb1.1?
Dec 16 23:34:10 <raster> the pain
Dec 16 23:34:11 <raster> :)
Dec 16 23:34:14 <mwester> raster:  slow... but how much speed do you need to show some slides in a presentation?
Dec 16 23:34:19 <jc> what about wifi ?
Dec 16 23:34:46 <raster> mwester: i hope it has enouhg video ram to double buffer...
Dec 16 23:34:56 <raster> otherwise you can watch it copy pixels up... sloooowly
Dec 16 23:34:56 <raster> :)
Dec 16 23:35:09 * mwester knows almost nothing about the USB framebuffer devices.
Dec 16 23:35:12 <jc> well who knows how much video ram it has
Dec 16 23:35:15 <Digital-Pioneer> So is there a working WiFi GUI available?... Mofi doesn't seem to work, but it might be udhcpc.
Dec 16 23:35:23 <jc> the people who have glamo datasheets, thats who
Dec 16 23:36:30 <raster> jc:  no - he's talking of a usb vga out device. not glamo
Dec 16 23:36:34 <SpeedEvil> As I understand it, all the USB framebuffer devices require 2
Dec 16 23:36:34 <SpeedEvil> usb2
Dec 16 23:36:41 <raster> i can tell u how much video ram glamo has - 8 m
Dec 16 23:36:51 <jc> raster: but you have to prerender it somewhere ?
Dec 16 23:36:51 <mwester> SpeedEvil:  oh.  bad idea then. :(
Dec 16 23:37:02 <raster> jc: dont need glamo for that
Dec 16 23:37:09 <jc> raster: do you have the datasheet? :D
Dec 16 23:37:28 <raster> SpeedEvil:  shouldnt usb be downwards compatible - ie it should drop to usb1.1 speeds?
Dec 16 23:37:39 <SpeedEvil> raster: no
Dec 16 23:37:39 <raster> jc: for the glamo?
Dec 16 23:37:47 <jc> of course, you get 12Mbit NRZI encoded line
Dec 16 23:37:51 <SpeedEvil> raster: some stuff just only works at USB2 speeds
Dec 16 23:37:59 <mwester> I'm sure raster returned all proprietary docs when he left Om.
Dec 16 23:38:14 <SpeedEvil> raster: it would need lots of additional hardware to support 1.1
Dec 16 23:38:22 <jc> add to that the fuss with bus management by the host and you get a slightly lower bandwidth for your data
Dec 16 23:38:23 <raster> mwester: oh indeed. absolutely.
Dec 16 23:38:25 <raster> :)
Dec 16 23:38:39 <orzo> mwester: i could use a usb/vga adapter anyway
Dec 16 23:38:40 <SpeedEvil> raster: for example, USB-TV devices that grab a digital TV multiplex whole, and don't decode it, just pass it intact to the PC.
Dec 16 23:38:45 <jc> if its just a simple bulk endpoint, that framebuffer device, it shouldn't be so bad actually
Dec 16 23:38:49 <orzo> i've been hacking on a asus wlhdd
Dec 16 23:38:58 <raster> SpeedEvil: hmm how? if it has its own framebuffer... or doesn't it  do u literlally have to drive the video out scan over usb?
Dec 16 23:38:59 <jc> raster: yeah for the glamo :)
Dec 16 23:39:02 <SpeedEvil> raster: this may be more than can be squeezed down a 1.1 link, as it's 10 channels.
Dec 16 23:39:05 <orzo> and its kind of tedius without a display
Dec 16 23:39:17 <SpeedEvil> raster: I can't say - I haven't looked into it in detail.
Dec 16 23:39:25 <raster> SpeedEvil:  oh yeah - there are some things that literally have minimum data reqs
Dec 16 23:39:31 <mwester> orzo:  But I do think it's a good idea, esp. if it could all be compact enough to slip easily into a backpack or similar carrying case.  
Dec 16 23:39:32 <raster> but a usb vga-out device....
Dec 16 23:39:42 <SpeedEvil> raster: The minimal amount of looking I did stopped after I couldn't found anyone saying they'd had it working on 1.1
Dec 16 23:39:54 <raster> SpeedEvil:  fair enough
Dec 16 23:39:55 <jc> shame
Dec 16 23:40:02 <orzo> mwester: so im the first person to have this idea? i was sort of hoping its been done already
Dec 16 23:40:03 <jc> I'd love to get my hands on that :)
Dec 16 23:40:04 <SpeedEvil> raster: also. 'it doesn't work on USB1.1'
Dec 16 23:40:08 <raster> just for a remote vga out - as long as the device has a framebuffer and does its own scanout
Dec 16 23:40:13 <raster> i see no reason it wouldnt work on 1.1
Dec 16 23:40:20 <raster> just your data uploads.. wont be... fast
Dec 16 23:40:25 <SpeedEvil> raster: vs 'My ... isn't working properly, the picture is slow to update'
Dec 16 23:40:37 <SpeedEvil> raster: could be the support cost alone.
Dec 16 23:40:42 <jc> consider this
Dec 16 23:40:49 <jc> taking a old pci vga card
Dec 16 23:40:53 <SpeedEvil> (but I have no idea)
Dec 16 23:41:14 <SpeedEvil> We need to reuse existing code.
Dec 16 23:41:19 <jc> and connecting it over a full speed usb 1.1 converter
Dec 16 23:41:19 <mwester> orzo:  I dunno -- I've seen discussions on custom cables, usb hubs, and keyboards all independently, but the idea of a single peripheral that would be a keyboard, usb hub, and power source for the FR I do not recall seeing mentioned before.
Dec 16 23:41:19 <SpeedEvil> USB->glamo
Dec 16 23:41:24 <raster> jc:  even if i still had the datasheets. i definitely cant go giving them to people. that is not just in violation of the nda whihc still applies, even thouhg i've left, but it just wrong as its a breach of trust with om.
Dec 16 23:41:33 <mwester> orzo:  it sounds like a useful thing, if it is easily constructed.
Dec 16 23:41:46 <jc> you convert some simple operations that need to work to direct commands over usb
Dec 16 23:41:52 <jc> like line, polygon and stuff
Dec 16 23:41:57 <jc> so it can be transmitted fast
Dec 16 23:42:16 <jc> this would be easi to do with avr or something
Dec 16 23:42:23 <jc> the real question is if the bandwidth is ok
Dec 16 23:42:36 <jc> even if you have the acceleration functions mapped to usb interrupt commands
Dec 16 23:42:48 <jc> because screen refresh would definitely be slow
Dec 16 23:43:00 <jc> I can get you some numbers on bulk transfer via usb 1.1 if you want
Dec 16 23:43:15 <jc> I think its not enough for a decent framerate but if you update atomically...
Dec 16 23:43:27 <jc> but of course, 'think' is not enough
Dec 16 23:43:56 <SpeedEvil> jc: that's irrelevant.
Dec 16 23:44:13 <SpeedEvil> jc: the important thing is will the available USB devices work at all on USB1.1
Dec 16 23:44:15 <jc> well definitely no full screen videos
Dec 16 23:44:39 <jc> oh they already did something like that ?
Dec 16 23:44:43 <jc> usb graphics card ?
Dec 16 23:44:51 <SpeedEvil> yes
Dec 16 23:45:13 <jc> huh.. I see...
Dec 16 23:45:31 <jc> well heres the issue
Dec 16 23:45:37 <SpeedEvil> I also want bluetooth and wifi monitors
Dec 16 23:45:44 <jc> USB 2.0 label doesn't necessarily mean the device supports usb high speed mode
Dec 16 23:45:48 <SpeedEvil> I know.
Dec 16 23:46:01 <SpeedEvil> However, the devices - those I've seen dumps from require high-spee dmode.
Dec 16 23:46:04 <jc> all high speed devices initially talk over full speed
Dec 16 23:46:06 <SpeedEvil> err
Dec 16 23:46:12 <SpeedEvil> yeah - high speed
Dec 16 23:46:14 <jc> so they do know both
Dec 16 23:46:15 <jc> but
Dec 16 23:46:24 <SpeedEvil> they will negotiate as to high speed - but they won't function
Dec 16 23:46:26 <jc> if the device decides it will only work on full speed
Dec 16 23:46:31 <jc> oh. high speed
Dec 16 23:46:36 <jc> theres nothing you can do
Dec 16 23:46:51 <SpeedEvil> They require full speed to work
Dec 16 23:46:54 <jc> its bad design practic...
Dec 16 23:46:56 <jc> *e
Dec 16 23:46:59 * SpeedEvil tries to remember the stupid naming.
Dec 16 23:47:05 <jc> yeah its stupid
Dec 16 23:47:12 <SpeedEvil> high is 12, full is 480?
Dec 16 23:47:16 <jc> yeah
Dec 16 23:47:23 <jc> no
Dec 16 23:47:26 <jc> the other way around :D
Dec 16 23:47:32 * SpeedEvil sighs.
Dec 16 23:47:40 <jc> me too
Dec 16 23:47:48 <Wonka> jc: 4.2.2.2, 141.1.1.1
Dec 16 23:48:05 <jc> way to remember that
Dec 16 23:48:12 <Wonka> ups, seem to have hit pgup several 10mins ago
Dec 16 23:48:18 <jc> at the time of old usb standard, you had only two speeds
Dec 16 23:48:20 <jc> low and full
Dec 16 23:48:34 <jc> low for like HID devices and full for stuff that requiered bandwidth
Dec 16 23:49:06 <jc> and they juiced it up a little and added a high speed mode afterwards
Dec 16 23:49:16 <Wonka> and now you got VGA outputs on high... quite a HID, nor? :)
Dec 16 23:49:19 <jc> so its 'full' speed but at the time of the old standard
Dec 16 23:49:39 <jc> it was just a simplification, I think you get it ;)
Dec 16 23:49:56 <Wonka> that's why the smiley was ther 
Dec 16 23:50:06 * SpeedEvil stabs USB3
Dec 16 23:50:11 <jc> ooooh
Dec 16 23:50:14 <Wonka> WUSB?
Dec 16 23:50:18 <jc> the new one is called SuperSpeed :D
Dec 16 23:50:18 <SpeedEvil> Wonka: no
Dec 16 23:50:19 <jc> lol
Dec 16 23:50:27 <jc> 4.8Gbit/s
Dec 16 23:50:30 <Wonka> jc: Ludicrous Speed
Dec 16 23:50:38 <SpeedEvil> Wonka: it's got extra wires in the cable, and 2 fibres.
Dec 16 23:50:43 <jc> wonder what they throw on us with USB 4 ;)
Dec 16 23:50:44 <Digital-Pioneer> How do you make an icon on the home screen of SHR?
Dec 16 23:50:50 * SpeedEvil bets it's gonna be _fragile_.
Dec 16 23:50:57 <Wonka> jc: two transwarp channels
Dec 16 23:51:01 <jc> lol
Dec 16 23:51:01 <SpeedEvil> 4 wires you can just about do.
Dec 16 23:51:12 <jc> somebody watches too much star trek ;)
Dec 16 23:51:15 <SpeedEvil> ~10, isn't gonna be real robust.
Dec 16 23:51:24 <jc> Warp speed !
Dec 16 23:51:38 <Wonka> jc: "ludicrous speed" is not star trek :>
Dec 16 23:51:40 <jc> yeah, new one will be Warp 1, then Warp 2 and so on :D
Dec 16 23:51:46 <jc> transwarp is ;)
Dec 16 23:51:47 <Wonka> Warp USB
Dec 16 23:51:53 <jc> lol
Dec 16 23:51:53 <Wonka> WUSB
Dec 16 23:52:13 <mwester> spaceballs
Dec 16 23:52:20 <jc> already I see the marketing labels
Dec 16 23:52:24 <Wonka> they jammed our radar!
Dec 16 23:52:27 <jc> 'approaches warp speed !'
Dec 16 23:52:32 <jc> with enterprise on it
Dec 16 23:52:36 <Wonka> Warp USB the flame thrower?
Dec 16 23:52:47 <Wonka> mmmmerchandising!
Dec 16 23:53:07 <Digital-Pioneer> Can I run Opera mini on the Freerunner?
Dec 16 23:53:39 <jc> mwester btw. where can I find log of this channel? I can't find anything
Dec 16 23:56:02 <jc> apt: help
Dec 16 23:56:27 <Wonka> apt kill yourself
Dec 16 23:56:28 * apt shoots a hyper-charged fluxpositrino gun at yourself
Dec 16 23:56:35 <Wonka> apt kill ubuntu
Dec 16 23:56:36 * apt shoots a super-inverse fluxmeson gun at ubuntu
Dec 16 23:57:19 <jc> apt: rot13 test
Dec 16 23:57:19 <apt> grfg
Dec 16 23:57:22 <jc> lol
Dec 16 23:57:44 <jc> apt: rot13 bayl gur svefg bar vf pbeerpg
Dec 16 23:57:44 <apt> only the first one is correct
Dec 16 23:57:49 <jc> ooh
Dec 16 23:57:58 <raster> Digital-Pioneer:  icons are from .desktop files
Dec 16 23:58:14 <raster> the same way all apps are installed and present a file saying how to run them
Dec 16 23:58:19 <raster> same as on desktop linux
Dec 16 23:58:28 <raster> just make sure the cateogry is valid
Dec 16 23:58:40 <Digital-Pioneer> raster: Never messed with them. Always used a package manager or ran it manually. :)
Dec 16 23:58:52 <raster> time to mess
Dec 16 23:59:11 <Digital-Pioneer> Yeah, so can I run Opera Mini or Mobile on the FR?
Dec 16 23:59:26 <jc> minimo is pretty cool, but dunno about opera
Dec 16 23:59:45 <jc> minimos unusable without swap though
Dec 16 23:59:48 <Digital-Pioneer> Minimo, ehh? Is it in opkg?
Dec 16 23:59:54 <jc> dunno...
Dec 16 23:59:57 <Digital-Pioneer> Oh, I haven't set up swap.
Dec 16 23:59:59 <jc> but it works
Dec 17 00:00:12 <jc> wel it starts up but at that time, all the memory is consumed
Dec 17 00:00:15 <jc> *well
Dec 17 00:00:16 <Digital-Pioneer> I know midori keeps crashing... Maybe I should. LOL
Dec 17 00:00:37 <jc> the default browser is good for static pages though
Dec 17 00:00:45 <jc> I use it just for lyrics mostly :)
Dec 17 00:00:59 <jc> minimo can even run meebo, thats cool
Dec 17 00:01:23 <jc> even diamonds opera couldn't do that
Dec 17 00:02:31 <Wonka> meebo?
Dec 17 00:02:49 <jc> a little complicated javascript IM client
Dec 17 00:03:27 <Wonka> eek
Dec 17 00:03:48 * Wonka prefers ssh to his screen with irssi (connected to IRC and bitlbee)
Dec 17 00:04:24 <jc> yeah or just use gajim or something ;)
Dec 17 00:04:42 <jc> I didn't have time to make my freerunner useful lyet
Dec 17 00:04:47 <jc> *usefull
Dec 17 00:05:03 <jc> I'm still on FDOM
Dec 17 00:07:38 <jc> well anyway, off to bed for me, good bye and happy hacking :)
Dec 17 00:07:46 <Wonka> night
Dec 17 00:07:54 <Wonka> i don't have PPP running yet
Dec 17 00:08:08 <Wonka> mostly use tangogps for gps logging
Dec 17 00:10:54 <raster> oooh joy
Dec 17 00:10:58 <raster> efl port of webkit...
Dec 17 00:11:02 * raster git clones
Dec 17 00:12:54 <Toaster`> efl port of webkit?  interesting
Dec 17 00:13:54 <Toaster`> raster: is that a possible nice and lightweight browser in some indeterminate future?
Dec 17 00:16:56 <raster> to let's see
Dec 17 00:17:07 <raster> i need to look at the code, api, and how well it works
Dec 17 00:17:20 <raster> but .. if it works well... i can wrap it up in an elementary widget
Dec 17 00:17:32 <raster> so  a brwoser will be pretty much no work
Dec 17 00:17:42 <Toaster`> that's fair.  And sounds nice, easy and clean, if it works
Dec 17 00:20:49 <raster> lets see...
Dec 17 00:21:04 <raster> right now... net connection REALLY SLOW
Dec 17 00:21:24 <raster> Receiving objects:   1% (6010/474620), 2.52 MiB | 2 KiB/s      
Dec 17 00:21:49 <Toaster`> that seems a little ... unfortunate.
Dec 17 00:24:55 <SpeedEvil> Website UI tutorial. http://www.iriver.com/ (how not to)
Dec 17 00:35:12 <Digital-Pioneer> Ahhh, Minimo is awesome.
Dec 17 02:55:12 <DocScrutinizer> updated http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/GSM/Flashing. Enjoy CHANGELOG! ;-)
Dec 17 02:56:28 <Sargun> Open source calypso.
Dec 17 02:56:29 <Sargun> :-P
Dec 17 02:58:40 <Sargun> DocScrutinizer, https://people.internal.openmoko.org/sean_chiang/gsm/firmware/info/
Dec 17 02:58:43 <Sargun> is passworded
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Wed Dec 17 02:59:57 2008