**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Tue Dec 23 02:59:57 2008
Dec 23 03:07:21 <daMaestro> wow
Dec 23 03:07:32 <daMaestro> well the issue of the suspend triggering while on a phone call is fixed
Dec 23 03:07:33 <daMaestro> that is nice.
Dec 23 03:07:50 <daMaestro> very nice... i can actually have a phone call with the phone still set to auto-suspend
Dec 23 06:16:52 <Slaxxer> android looks like a very slow qtopia
Dec 23 06:17:46 <cdm> that's harsh.
Dec 23 06:17:55 <cdm> it's actually shipping in a phone.
Dec 23 06:18:15 <Slaxxer> sorry
Dec 23 06:18:25 <Slaxxer> im just a user though
Dec 23 06:18:34 <cdm> Don't make swetland cry either. :)
Dec 23 06:19:09 <Slaxxer> it keeps jumping in an out of sleep
Dec 23 06:24:03 <Slaxxer> well it stopped that
Dec 23 06:26:07 <Slaxxer> 2.6.28:)
Dec 23 06:28:45 <Slaxxer> its good for its size
Dec 23 06:51:49 <Slaxxer> side scrolling seems like it might be useful
Dec 23 06:52:10 <gecco> good morning
Dec 23 09:06:30 <Hopscotch> moin
Dec 23 09:09:13 <lymeca> How usable is Android on the FR?
Dec 23 09:24:26 <CIA-24> openmoko: 03marek * r4879 10/trunk/src/host/pye17/ (7 files in 4 dirs): add primitive callback support
Dec 23 09:37:44 <raph_ael> hi
Dec 23 09:39:46 <emsyr> Hello guys.
Dec 23 09:40:20 <emsyr> I've installed  2008.12 and I lost the wrench for illume-config.
Dec 23 09:40:40 <emsyr> Does anyone knows how to get it back?
Dec 23 09:48:22 <CIA-24> openmoko: 03marek * r4880 10/trunk/src/host/pye17/codegen/codegen.py: some minor cleanups
Dec 23 09:59:19 <wd> hmmm
Dec 23 09:59:30 <wd> android runs with u-boot
Dec 23 10:06:32 <Akarui> ohai
Dec 23 10:23:44 <wd> wow
Dec 23 10:23:52 <wd> it totally boots
Dec 23 11:21:56 <munga> hello. did anybody manage to use the FR with a chip from "3" in italy ?
Dec 23 11:36:14 <finger> Anyone familier with using the repo script to get the koolu-android sources? The script is giving me an error after ~28mb dloading, something like update-ref: coercing to Unicode: need string or buffer, tuple found
Dec 23 11:41:23 <DonAlex> Morning Peeps.
Dec 23 11:42:15 <DonAlex> Just a quick question. The build of Openmoko I have running is using the GTK engine.. But the fonts for labels is incredibly tiny.
Dec 23 11:42:34 <DonAlex> I feel sure there is a setting I can change via gconftool but does anyone know what it might be?
Dec 23 11:42:51 <DonAlex> TTF are installed but seems they are not being used
Dec 23 11:43:23 <CIA-24> freesmartphone.org: 03niklas.coding 07libframeworkd-glib * r20954567ec28 10/src/ (3 files in 2 dirs): As of now, the mode parameter of the IncomingUssd signal is an integer.
Dec 23 11:59:54 <jonsmith1982> its not possible to use the accelerometers as a regular mouse is it?
Dec 23 12:00:13 <henk> why not?
Dec 23 12:00:29 <jonsmith1982> just been doing a little testing,
Dec 23 12:00:35 <SpeedEvil> Not by simply integrating the position
Dec 23 12:01:10 <jonsmith1982> doesn't seem to to respond whilst being moved along a flat surface
Dec 23 12:01:11 <SpeedEvil> you can do orientation -> position
Dec 23 12:10:38 <spydon> Can I force SHR to load somehow?
Dec 23 12:11:06 <jonsmith1982> orientation -> position would need a very steady hand
Dec 23 12:11:22 <jonsmith1982> even steadier the bigger the screen res.
Dec 23 12:11:39 <henk> spydon: yell at it?
Dec 23 12:12:19 <spydon> henk, :(, I don't want to hurt him!
Dec 23 12:18:13 <Ainulindale> soman: to load?
Dec 23 12:18:21 <Ainulindale> To load what?
Dec 23 12:18:57 <Ainulindale> hmpf
Dec 23 12:19:07 <Ainulindale> soman: sorry was talking to spydon, wrong tab
Dec 23 12:19:54 <soman> ainulindale: thats okay.
Dec 23 12:20:01 <spydon> to load the battery :P
Dec 23 12:20:09 <spydon> It doesn't want to load
Dec 23 12:20:25 <Ainulindale> Load the battery?
Dec 23 12:20:32 <Ainulindale> What do you mean?
Dec 23 12:20:41 <spydon> Ah I mean charge :P
Dec 23 12:20:42 <Ainulindale> As in charge?
Dec 23 12:20:44 <Ainulindale> Ah.
Dec 23 12:21:08 <Ainulindale> You have to wait until frameworkd is fully loaded before being able to see the charging
Dec 23 12:21:20 <Ainulindale> If your power led is orange then it's charging and illume should show that
Dec 23 12:21:34 <Ainulindale> try to unplug/plug
Dec 23 12:21:38 <spydon> Ainulindale, I know, it loaded yesterday, but not today 
Dec 23 12:21:51 <spydon> Yeah I have tried that
Dec 23 12:22:00 <spydon> btw it gives me some error messages on startup
Dec 23 12:22:06 <Ainulindale> Ah?
Dec 23 12:23:09 <spydon> power_supply bat: driver failed to report 'status' property
Dec 23 12:23:12 <spydon> and
Dec 23 12:23:21 <spydon> power_supply bat: driver failed to report 'voltage_now' property
Dec 23 12:23:30 <Ainulindale> Are you using the SHR kernel?
Dec 23 12:23:36 <spydon> yes
Dec 23 12:23:44 <Ainulindale> Where did you see these messages then?
Dec 23 12:23:57 <spydon> first thing in startup
Dec 23 12:24:04 <Ainulindale> Where?
Dec 23 12:24:13 <Ainulindale> Printed on your forehead or written somewhere?
Dec 23 12:24:21 <spydon> yes, in the forehead
Dec 23 12:24:29 <spydon> oh lol :P
Dec 23 12:24:35 <spydon> in the top of the screen :P
Dec 23 12:24:40 <spydon> a black screen
Dec 23 12:24:46 <Ainulindale> Grmbl. *Where* ?
Dec 23 12:24:47 <spydon> sorry for my sucky English ^^
Dec 23 12:24:57 <Ainulindale> In X? tty? illume?
Dec 23 12:25:00 <spydon> tty
Dec 23 12:25:11 <Ainulindale> Ok then
Dec 23 12:25:20 <Ainulindale> Testing or unstable?
Dec 23 12:25:28 <Ainulindale> Flashed recently or opkg upgraded?
Dec 23 12:25:41 <spydon> Yeah I flashed some days ago
Dec 23 12:25:48 <spydon> with the "latest" image
Dec 23 12:25:55 <Ainulindale> Which one was it?
Dec 23 12:26:07 <Ainulindale> Testing or unstable? Which day?
Dec 23 12:27:03 <spydon> I don't know... the file is just named shr-image-om-gta02.jffs2
Dec 23 12:27:18 <spydon> can I get it somehow from the terminal?
Dec 23 12:27:53 <Ainulindale> It would be bothersome.
Dec 23 12:27:59 <Ainulindale> Please reflash latest testing
Dec 23 12:28:02 <Ainulindale> With latest kernel
Dec 23 12:28:31 <spydon> okay, where do I find the latest "testing"? :P
Dec 23 12:28:47 <Ainulindale> http://shr.bearstech.com 
Dec 23 12:28:54 <spydon> ty
Dec 23 12:29:15 <Ainulindale> http://shr.bearstech.com/shr-testing/images/neo1973/
Dec 23 12:29:18 <Ainulindale> precisely
Dec 23 12:29:46 <spydon> Ah I already got the latest on that page :P
Dec 23 12:30:04 <spydon> I can see which ones I downloaded before
Dec 23 12:30:18 <Ainulindale> If you don't know which one it was it doesn't help me
Dec 23 12:30:23 <Ainulindale> So redownload, reflash, retry
Dec 23 12:31:18 <spydon> probably this one:
Dec 23 12:31:18 <spydon> 	openmoko-shr-image-glibc-ipk--20081216-om-gta02.rootfs.jffs2
Dec 23 12:31:46 <beni> mokomoko
Dec 23 12:32:23 <spydon> yeah, must be that one
Dec 23 12:33:29 <spydon> and this kernel:
Dec 23 12:33:30 <spydon> uImage-2.6.24-oe3+gitrfb42ce6724576fc173faf8abfb04aa2c36d213b7-r0-om-gta02.bin
Dec 23 12:34:04 <gecco> http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Gtkaddpoi gtkaddpoi 0.5.5 is out
Dec 23 12:37:21 <spydon> Ainulindale, do I have to reflash anyway?
Dec 23 12:38:07 <Ainulindale> If you're not sure about what you have, redownload, reflash
Dec 23 12:38:15 <Ainulindale> Can't help you if I'm not sure you're using latest image
Dec 23 12:39:42 <spydon> I am sure it's the latest ^^
Dec 23 12:40:01 <spydon> they had the same hash or what its called...
Dec 23 12:45:39 <spydon> Ainulindale, the same md5sum
Dec 23 12:49:38 <kahless__> can anyone tell me where i can tweak the blank and/or suspend time via config?
Dec 23 13:18:30 <CIA-48> freesmartphone.org: 03niklas.coding 07libframeworkd-glib * rb2c4afa1d1f1 10/src/ogsmd/ (2 files): Fixed a typo.
Dec 23 13:28:52 <spydon> Ainulindale, SHR seems to have problems with the BL-5C battery
Dec 23 13:29:11 <spydon> because it's loading normal with the regular Openmoko battery
Dec 23 13:34:06 <CIA-48> freesmartphone.org: 03niklas.coding 07libframeworkd-glib * r7c391e8001c4 10/src/frameworkd-glib-dbus.c: Added initialization for frameworkdHandler->incomingUssd.
Dec 23 14:04:04 <CIA-48> freesmartphone.org: 03niklas.coding 07libframeworkd-glib * rad3bb0a5bb52 10/src/ (frameworkd-glib-dbus.c frameworkd-glib-dbus.h): API Breackage! Renamed new_frameworkd_handler() to frameworkd_handler_new() and dbus_connect_to_bus() to frameworkd_handler_connect().
Dec 23 14:54:43 <mick_lap1op> anyone get an external keyboard to work w/ the freerunner
Dec 23 15:06:02 <mick_lap1op> i'd like to know what bluetooth kb to buy for it
Dec 23 15:06:14 <mick_lap1op> i want irc on the go :D
Dec 23 15:06:19 <Dave> ;D
Dec 23 15:16:01 <d-b> #/join openmoko-debian
Dec 23 15:18:32 <Slaxxer> android starting coming on at 1:2 am al buy itself
Dec 23 15:19:09 <Slaxxer> screen light up then it would go black then light up again   over an over
Dec 23 15:19:46 <Slaxxer> is the latest shr working for everybody?
Dec 23 15:20:29 <Slaxxer> it started getting errors when starting some applications
Dec 23 15:21:46 <raph_ael> works for m
Dec 23 15:21:47 <raph_ael> e
Dec 23 15:22:09 <raph_ael> maybe not the last last kernel
Dec 23 15:22:21 <Slaxxer> ok
Dec 23 15:22:34 <Slaxxer> android or shr?
Dec 23 15:22:38 <raph_ael> shr
Dec 23 15:22:42 <raph_ael> not tried android yet
Dec 23 15:22:54 <Slaxxer> it looks very good
Dec 23 15:22:55 <raph_ael> don't know the manipulation to make it boot
Dec 23 15:23:09 <Slaxxer> i didnt use qi
Dec 23 15:23:24 <Slaxxer>  an it took about 3 minuits to boot
Dec 23 15:23:32 <raph_ael> wow
Dec 23 15:23:58 <Slaxxer> i almost gave up then a little green spot came up
Dec 23 15:24:10 <Slaxxer> then it booted
Dec 23 15:24:29 <Slaxxer> made a few calls
Dec 23 15:24:38 <Slaxxer> rebooted several times
Dec 23 15:24:51 <raph_ael> thought most thing didn't work with android
Dec 23 15:25:05 <Slaxxer> thats right
Dec 23 15:25:08 <raph_ael> the boot process doesn't have to be tweaked ?
Dec 23 15:25:34 <Slaxxer> not for me but i have a later uboot
Dec 23 15:25:46 <raph_ael> maybe that's why
Dec 23 15:26:21 <Slaxxer> fdom going to release another?
Dec 23 15:50:47 <pooze> anyone... my Xserver doesn't start.
Dec 23 15:50:54 <pooze> any help on where to search would be appreciated.
Dec 23 15:51:00 <pooze> which logfiles should I start reading?
Dec 23 15:51:29 <pooze> running 2008.12 stable.
Dec 23 15:55:04 <edje2> pooze: do you get any output when you run /etc/init.d/xserver-nodm restart ?
Dec 23 15:56:29 <pooze> edje2: no, nothing.
Dec 23 15:56:38 <pooze> edje2: what happens is that the phone boots up, then stops. ssh daemon has been started, so I can ssh in.
Dec 23 15:57:02 <edje2> the log vor the x server is in /var/volatile/tmp/x.log
Dec 23 15:57:17 <pooze> edje2: then I try to run /etc/init.d/xserver-nodm start, and I can see on the screen that it goes blank, then after 2 seconds returns to text-mode.
Dec 23 15:57:18 <pooze> no output.
Dec 23 15:58:01 <edje2> but i think you are better of reflashing the thing. looks like there is something wrong with your instalation
Dec 23 15:58:48 <edje2> the process that is started is: /usr/bin/Xglamo :0 -pn +extension Composite -nolisten tcp -dpi 285 -screen 480x640 -hide-cursor -br
Dec 23 15:59:24 <edje2> the smiley is : 0 ( without the space)
Dec 23 15:59:39 <SpeedEvil> If this was 2007, I would suggest that you run 'nand erase rootfs' from the u-boot menu before flashing.
Dec 23 16:00:04 <SpeedEvil> As jffs gets really confused if you overwrite filesystems
Dec 23 16:00:16 <pooze> "ERROR: Enlightenment cannot determine its installed
Dec 23 16:00:16 <pooze>        prefix from the system or argv[0].
Dec 23 16:00:16 <pooze>        This is because it is not on Linux AND has been
Dec 23 16:00:16 <pooze>        Executed strangely. This is unusual.
Dec 23 16:00:16 <pooze> "
Dec 23 16:00:17 <pooze> hmm...
Dec 23 16:01:21 <edje2> so X is started but enlightment is confused...?  i really think a reinstallation is your best bet
Dec 23 16:01:25 <pooze> run-parts: /etc/X11/Xsession.d/90xXWindowManager exited with code 1011
Dec 23 16:01:25 <pooze> waiting for X server to shut down FreeFontPath: FPE "built-ins" refcount is 2, should be 1; fixing.
Dec 23 16:01:48 <pooze> edje2: reinstallation sure is an option.
Dec 23 16:01:58 <pooze> edje2: but I would prefer sorting it out.
Dec 23 16:02:07 <SpeedEvil> overwriting jffs images of a different size can cause MASSIVE FILESYSTEM CORRUPTION.
Dec 23 16:02:17 <SpeedEvil> Which typically does things like not making X start
Dec 23 16:02:31 <edje2> right, by all means hack away !  that is much more fun than just click click next finish
Dec 23 16:02:35 <SpeedEvil> I'd assumed it had been fixed, but maybe not.
Dec 23 16:02:48 <pooze> it does give me a clue here in the log, that enlightenment doesn't  find its installed prefix, so I could try setting some environment variables. $E_PREFIX
Dec 23 16:03:18 <edje2> i'll have to go, good luck with the puzzle
Dec 23 16:03:26 <pooze> SpeedEvil: hmm.. doesnt' seem like a corrupted filesystem to me. but could be.
Dec 23 16:03:39 <SpeedEvil> It's done wierd stuff to me before.
Dec 23 16:03:43 <pooze> SpeedEvil: but I have rebooted the thing several times where everything seemed to work, then suddenly today X doesn't start.
Dec 23 16:03:47 <SpeedEvil> I have no idea if that's the issue.
Dec 23 16:03:50 <SpeedEvil> Fair enough. 
Dec 23 16:04:01 <SpeedEvil> In that case, I can probably, as usual, safely be ignored.
Dec 23 16:04:10 <pooze> did you experience that things seemingly worked, then suddenly not?
Dec 23 16:04:34 <SpeedEvil> No, it was broken on first flash, and diddn't boot fukky.
Dec 23 16:04:37 <SpeedEvil> fully
Dec 23 16:06:16 <pooze> however, while reading 'dmesg' output, I found this one. Probably not related, but does any of you know about this anyway?
Dec 23 16:06:16 <pooze> "ASoC version 0.13.1
Dec 23 16:06:16 <pooze> wm8753: WM8753 Audio Codec 0.16
Dec 23 16:06:16 <pooze> asoc: WM8753 HiFi <-> s3c24xx-i2s mapping ok
Dec 23 16:06:16 <pooze> asoc: WM8753 Voice <-> Bluetooth mapping ok
Dec 23 16:06:18 <pooze> Only GTA01 hardware supported by ASoc driver"
Dec 23 16:06:39 <mwester> sloppy defconfig handling, safe to ignore.
Dec 23 16:07:39 <pooze> ok, thanks.
Dec 23 16:18:52 <pooze> hmm... I'm trying to work this X-thing out here still..
Dec 23 16:19:08 <pooze> apparently enlightenment is looking for the file "/usr/share/enlightenment/data/themes/default.edj" which doesn't exist on my system.
Dec 23 16:19:47 <pooze> when searching around there, I find in /usr/share/enlightenment/data/init three files:
Dec 23 16:19:47 <pooze> -rw-r--r--    1 root     root        25302 Jan  1  1970 asu_init.edj
Dec 23 16:19:47 <pooze> -rw-r--r--    1 root     root      1745897 Jan  1  1970 default.edj
Dec 23 16:19:47 <pooze> -rw-r--r--    1 root     root       111810 Jan  1  1970 illume_init.edj
Dec 23 16:20:10 <pooze> and in /usr/share/enlightenment/data/themes, only two files:
Dec 23 16:20:10 <pooze> -rw-r--r--    1 root     root       206338 Jan  1  1970 asu.edj
Dec 23 16:20:10 <pooze> -rw-r--r--    1 root     root      1226852 Jan  1  1970 illume.edj
Dec 23 16:20:17 <pooze> how does this compare with you guys?
Dec 23 16:20:29 <pooze> have I lost a file or symlink or something?
Dec 23 16:36:50 <eolson> Hi all, Is it worthwhile to upgrade to SHR from a working MS4 for the holidays?  I'm using GTA01 as my main phone and it's working fine so far.  (I'm thinking about installing mwester's kernel at least -- maybe resume will speed up a little and battery functionality will be there.)
Dec 23 16:54:10 <brian__> how to get rasters keyboard on 2008.12?
Dec 23 16:54:20 <brian__> opkg install illume-config-illume 
Dec 23 16:54:29 <brian__> pkg is uptodate
Dec 23 16:55:36 <Digital_Pioneer> Uhh, have I totally missed the point here? I thought Remoko let you control your mouse with the accelerometers...
Dec 23 17:14:32 <df_aldur> hi, anybody know if the koolu android image requires a partitioned sd card?
Dec 23 17:40:54 <Digital_Pioneer> OK, just got my SIM card, put it in the phone, ophonekitd still dies saying there's no SIM. WTH?
Dec 23 17:52:14 <Digital_Pioneer> Is there a way to query the SIM via CLI?
Dec 23 17:54:11 <brian__> so is it an at&t sim?
Dec 23 17:54:27 <Digital_Pioneer> Yes.
Dec 23 17:54:34 <brian__> if so take it out an look at the#
Dec 23 17:55:09 <brian__> an if its a 71234g it could be defective   
Dec 23 17:55:24 <Digital_Pioneer> Defective or unsupported?
Dec 23 17:56:20 <brian__> the sent mea 71234g an the contacts were offset to 1 side just far enough that it worked if i moved it over to one side
Dec 23 17:56:50 <brian__> but mostly it didnt work
Dec 23 17:57:43 <brian__> an the rep said she had seen a freerunner come through the guy from the north going to dallas area    
Dec 23 17:58:08 <brian__> had the same problem
Dec 23 17:58:28 <brian__>  an a more centered sim fixed us both
Dec 23 17:58:33 <Digital_Pioneer> Hmm, OK.
Dec 23 17:58:39 <Digital_Pioneer> So physically defective card?
Dec 23 17:59:19 <Digital_Pioneer> Well mine's a 71234 O 4022
Dec 23 17:59:19 <brian__> she gave me a 71234o an   been good since about july 20
Dec 23 17:59:36 <brian__> thats what i have to
Dec 23 17:59:43 <Digital_Pioneer> OK
Dec 23 18:00:07 <brian__> so maybe its that gsm firmware problem then
Dec 23 18:00:40 <Digital_Pioneer> Just updated a bunch of software on the phone, so hopefully that'll do it.
Dec 23 18:00:52 <brian__> try a sim from a friends phone foe just a few minuits to see
Dec 23 18:01:23 <Digital_Pioneer> When the phone boots, I see power_supply bat: driver failed to report `status` properly
Dec 23 18:01:25 <brian__> maybe your install failed
Dec 23 18:01:28 <Digital_Pioneer> What's up with that? :(
Dec 23 18:02:05 <brian__> distro?
Dec 23 18:02:18 <Digital_Pioneer> SHR
Dec 23 18:02:47 <brian__> someone sugested to nand erase rootfs 
Dec 23 18:03:04 <brian__> suggested
Dec 23 18:03:31 <brian__> i have never did that i always overwrite
Dec 23 18:03:57 <Digital_Pioneer> Could I flash back the same thing that was there before or would I have to start over from scratch?
Dec 23 18:04:17 <Digital_Pioneer> ophonekitd still doesn't see SIM. Crap.
Dec 23 18:04:44 <brian__> is it the 1216 image?
Dec 23 18:04:49 <RJ812> who can help me with dfu-util on windows?
Dec 23 18:05:04 <Digital_Pioneer> RJ812: Get a real OS.
Dec 23 18:05:14 <dos1> Digital_Pioneer: not ophonekitd - frameworkd
Dec 23 18:05:15 <brian__> slax will work
Dec 23 18:05:19 <dos1> and maybe not frameworkd, but modem
Dec 23 18:05:37 <Digital_Pioneer> dos1: ophonekitd is the one that aborts. :\
Dec 23 18:06:43 <RJ812> do u know flashing on FreeRunner?
Dec 23 18:07:21 <dos1> Digital_Pioneer: because it gets info from frameworkd, which gets info from modem, that there is not sim card
Dec 23 18:07:31 <dos1> no sim card*
Dec 23 18:07:35 <Digital_Pioneer> dos1: So how do I fix it?
Dec 23 18:08:01 <dos1> Digital_Pioneer: have you upgraded modem's firmware?
Dec 23 18:08:23 <dos1> maybe you're affected by #666
Dec 23 18:08:38 <dos1> (i like this bug number ;D)
Dec 23 18:09:10 <Digital_Pioneer> dos1: Nope. How do I go about taht?
Dec 23 18:09:35 <dos1> Digital_Pioneer: search on maillist and wiki
Dec 23 18:09:44 <dos1> i didn't do that, because i don't need it
Dec 23 18:09:52 <dos1> but i know it fixes sim problems
Dec 23 18:10:57 <RJ812> i have problem on flashing boot
Dec 23 18:11:19 <RJ812> dfu-util not work :s
Dec 23 18:11:26 <slaxxin> why is it tha some need it an some dont?
Dec 23 18:11:41 <slaxxin>   is it version specific
Dec 23 18:12:22 <slaxxin> rj812   can u burn an iso image on a cd
Dec 23 18:12:52 <slaxxin> u have a cd burner/writer?
Dec 23 18:13:14 <slaxxin> if so download slax iso
Dec 23 18:13:32 <RJ812> "No DFU capable USB device found"  display
Dec 23 18:13:38 <slaxxin> then use the instructions on the wiki
Dec 23 18:13:47 <RJ812> when flashing the kernel
Dec 23 18:13:55 <slaxxin> did u try it 3 times?
Dec 23 18:13:59 <RJ812> ys
Dec 23 18:14:04 <RJ812> many times
Dec 23 18:15:09 <slaxxin> dosl why is it that these bugs are not  hardware version specific?
Dec 23 18:15:27 <RJ812> http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Flashing#Boot_the_FreeRunner_from_NOR_Flash
Dec 23 18:15:31 <RJ812> i using this wiki
Dec 23 18:15:59 <slaxxin> an the fact that   some times i get a bad install   is WEAK in my opinion
Dec 23 18:16:33 <RJ812> u can help me this problem ?
Dec 23 18:17:28 <slaxxin> i use nand 
Dec 23 18:17:42 <slaxxin>   not nor   but it should still work
Dec 23 18:18:37 <slaxxin> http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Dfu-util-windows
Dec 23 18:19:00 <RJ812> ys, i using dfu-util on windows
Dec 23 18:19:40 <slaxxin> please use linux 
Dec 23 18:20:33 <slaxxin> if i were u i would download   a Slax    image and write it to a cdr
Dec 23 18:21:16 <slaxxin> then boot that image in your desktop   or laptop computer
Dec 23 18:21:40 <slaxxin> then run dfu    for linux
Dec 23 18:22:10 <slaxxin>   that way     these people in here are more likely to help u
Dec 23 18:23:53 <RJ812> after update OM, my phone not work
Dec 23 18:23:59 <RJ812> xserv not start :s
Dec 23 18:26:34 <RJ812> updated via SSH
Dec 23 18:26:45 <RJ812> so bored :s
Dec 23 18:28:09 <edje> RJ812: your the second one today, it  seems to be a trend
Dec 23 18:29:02 <RJ812> :(
Dec 23 18:29:03 <king> Would someone tell me point me to a link about hardware that is currently working with the android port?
Dec 23 18:29:45 <edje> RJ812: what do you get when you run: /usr/bin/Xglamo : 0 -pn +extension Composite -nolisten tcp -dpi 285 -screen 480x640 -hide-cursor -br
Dec 23 18:29:57 <slaxxin> G1
Dec 23 18:30:08 <edje> RJ812: remove the space between : 0
Dec 23 18:30:08 <slaxxin> If you do not have a DFU class driver (ie. Windows does not recognize the device in U-Boot mode and pops up the New Device Wizard)
Dec 23 18:30:51 <king> ...
Dec 23 18:31:14 <RJ812> i getted DFU class driver
Dec 23 18:31:26 <RJ812> got
Dec 23 18:33:08 <slaxxin> edje   will that command work on windows?
Dec 23 18:33:26 <slaxxin> oo u mean on moko
Dec 23 18:33:31 <edje> right
Dec 23 18:34:22 <RJ812> connect Neo via a USB cable
Dec 23 18:34:43 <edje> yup, ssh in and rn that command
Dec 23 18:34:48 <edje> run*
Dec 23 18:35:04 <RJ812> i have pop like "Neo 1973 Bootloder U-Boot" hareware not work
Dec 23 18:36:06 <slaxxin> Windows does not recognize the device in U-Boot mode and pops up the New Device Wizard)?
Dec 23 18:36:08 <edje> can you log in on the freerunner ?
Dec 23 18:36:14 <slaxxin> nope
Dec 23 18:36:19 <RJ812> ys, i can log via SSH
Dec 23 18:36:54 <edje> RJ812: and can you run that command on the freerunner ?
Dec 23 18:37:18 <RJ812> a /usr/bin/Xglamo : 0-pn +extension Composite -nolisten tcp -dpi 285 -screen 480x640 -hide-cursor -br <- this cm ?
Dec 23 18:37:27 <edje> RJ812: yup
Dec 23 18:37:31 <RJ812> wai me
Dec 23 18:37:54 <edje> RJ812: don;t forget to remove th space between : 0
Dec 23 18:38:34 <RJ812>  like /usr/bin/Xglamo :0 -pn +extension Composite -nolisten tcp -dpi 285 -screen 480x640 -hide-cursor -br 
Dec 23 18:38:36 <RJ812> ?
Dec 23 18:38:55 <RJ812> (II) verbosity set to 5
Dec 23 18:38:56 <RJ812> Using GLAMO 3362 card
Dec 23 18:38:56 <RJ812> (II) Screen: 16/16 depth/bpp
Dec 23 18:38:56 <RJ812> (II) vram size:4194304, onscreen vram size:614400, offscreen vram size:3579904
Dec 23 18:38:56 <RJ812> (II) initialising offscreen pixmaps
Dec 23 18:38:56 <RJ812> Extended Input Devices not yet supported. Impelement it at line 637 in kinput.c
Dec 23 18:38:58 <edje> yup.  
Dec 23 18:39:01 <RJ812> this error :-s
Dec 23 18:40:48 <edje> RJ812: ok, but does the X server start on the FR? (with a grey screen) or does it stay in X mode
Dec 23 18:40:59 <edje> X=text
Dec 23 18:41:28 <RJ812> on FR
Dec 23 18:42:06 <edje> sorr, but i think you have to reflash the device. seems like something is wrong with the installation
Dec 23 18:42:32 <Slaxxer> why are so many installs bad?
Dec 23 18:42:48 <RJ812> ys, i know and reflash the device, but have problem when using dfu-util
Dec 23 18:42:53 <Slaxxer> do we really need Qi  in nand?
Dec 23 18:46:22 <Slaxxer> or is it that the images are corrupt    or is it that the install borks   or whathell
Dec 23 18:46:24 <RJ812> http://img254.imageshack.us/img254/3064/26770557vy9.jpg what this error ?
Dec 23 18:46:48 <Slaxxer> u need a windows driver
Dec 23 18:47:09 <faltantornillos> Hello, When it comes to installing debian I've read that it's recommended to create a swap partition, a fat one for the kernel and another ext2 for the rest, are these partitions created by the installation script or do I have to create them? pls
Dec 23 18:47:17 <Slaxxer> read the windows link i gave u earlier more 
Dec 23 18:47:41 <RJ812> i think this problem and dfu-util not detect DFU cable
Dec 23 18:47:43 <RJ812> humm
Dec 23 18:48:24 <RJ812> but i have DFU class driver and installed
Dec 23 18:49:39 <Digital_Pioneer> OK! Finally got it to work.
Dec 23 18:49:51 <Digital_Pioneer> But it's REALLY quiet... How do I turn up volume?
Dec 23 18:52:38 <slaxxin> rj812   are u using the same usb port?
Dec 23 18:53:05 <slaxxin> try switching usb ports
Dec 23 18:53:35 <slaxxin> it appears the dfu driver is not correctly installed
Dec 23 18:53:44 <slaxxin> in windows 
Dec 23 18:54:01 <slaxxin> by the looks of your device manager
Dec 23 18:54:08 <RJ812> yeahhhhhhh
Dec 23 18:54:12 <RJ812> it ok :D
Dec 23 18:54:40 <RJ812> dfu-util work :D
Dec 23 18:54:48 <slaxxin> lol
Dec 23 18:54:50 <RJ812> Found Runtime: [0x1d50:0x5119] devnum=1, cfg=0, intf=2, alt=0, name="USB Device
Dec 23 18:54:50 <slaxxin> ok
Dec 23 18:54:50 <RJ812> Firmware Upgrade"
Dec 23 18:55:05 <RJ812> tx very much ^^
Dec 23 18:56:33 <RJ812> http://img187.imageshack.us/img187/9822/26682923ag9.jpg great :D
Dec 23 19:03:48 <Slaxxer> what firmware did u upgrade?
Dec 23 19:04:24 <lindi-> Digital_Pioneer: wiki has instructions on tuning audio settings, look there first
Dec 23 19:07:40 <RJ812> Om2008-12
Dec 23 19:08:37 <RJ812> state(2) = dfuIDLE, status(0) = No error condition is present
Dec 23 19:08:37 <RJ812> Done!
Dec 23 19:08:37 <RJ812> Resetting USB to switch back to runtime mode
Dec 23 19:09:24 <admiral0> hi
Dec 23 19:10:00 <admiral0> how to reset all environment of uboot?(that stores on NAND)
Dec 23 19:10:37 <RJ812> flashing the kernel is ok, and what i do next :(
Dec 23 19:11:57 <admiral0> does anybody know how to reset my custom changes to uboot?
Dec 23 19:12:12 <lindi-> admiral0: reset?
Dec 23 19:12:15 <edje> RJ812: reade the wiki about flashing!
Dec 23 19:12:21 <lindi-> admiral0: just write the old configuration back
Dec 23 19:12:33 <RJ812> next is flashing the Root Filesystem >
Dec 23 19:12:34 <admiral0> with dfu?
Dec 23 19:12:34 <RJ812> ?
Dec 23 19:12:43 <lindi-> admiral0: i used nandwrite
Dec 23 19:12:49 <lindi-> admiral0: how did you customize it?
Dec 23 19:12:57 <edje> RJ812: sounds like a good idea! and after that the uboot
Dec 23 19:12:59 <admiral0> lindi.. i've lost it :(
Dec 23 19:13:03 <lindi-> admiral0: ?
Dec 23 19:13:39 <edje> RJ812: rootfs takes a little while, so please be patient
Dec 23 19:13:42 <admiral0> i added an entry in the menu.. i don't need it and some other things i don't remember
Dec 23 19:13:53 <RJ812> C:\Neo>dfu-util -a rootfs -R -D Om2008.12-om-gta02.rootfs.jffs2
Dec 23 19:13:53 <RJ812> dfu-util - (C) 2007 by OpenMoko Inc.
Dec 23 19:13:53 <RJ812> This program is Free Software and has ABSOLUTELY NO WARRANTY
Dec 23 19:13:53 <RJ812> No DFU capable USB device found
Dec 23 19:14:05 <lindi-> admiral0: how did you add it?
Dec 23 19:14:33 <admiral0> commands are on the wiki
Dec 23 19:15:44 <lindi-> admiral0: wiki does not seem to know about nandwrite
Dec 23 19:16:00 <admiral0> i've also tried to boot a kernel compiled by me
Dec 23 19:16:03 <admiral0> no luck
Dec 23 19:16:34 <lindi-> one issue at a time :)
Dec 23 19:17:37 <admiral0> strange.. now uboot boots... 
Dec 23 19:17:45 <RJ812> ok. it done ang starting flash the root file system ^^
Dec 23 19:17:50 <admiral0> (not my kernel though)
Dec 23 19:20:01 <lindi-> admiral0: have you done any kernel development in the past?
Dec 23 19:20:10 <admiral0> nope
Dec 23 19:20:34 <admiral0> i just checked out kernel compiled vmlinux and 
Dec 23 19:20:43 <admiral0> then made the uImage
Dec 23 19:21:35 <Digital_Pioneer> lindi-: Now I can't hear anything... :\
Dec 23 19:21:35 <admiral0> kernel is the only thing i have not compiled yet entirely
Dec 23 19:23:10 <lindi-> admiral0: http://iki.fi/lindi/openmoko/kernel.txt has what i use
Dec 23 19:23:17 <lindi-> Digital_Pioneer: what did you do? ;)
Dec 23 19:23:35 <Digital_Pioneer> lindi-: I used that python script to (I think) turn up the sound.
Dec 23 19:23:47 <lindi-> Digital_Pioneer: which python script?
Dec 23 19:23:50 <Digital_Pioneer> But now I can't hear anything...
Dec 23 19:23:55 <Digital_Pioneer> lindi-: The one on the wiki page.
Dec 23 19:24:02 <lindi-> wiki has many python scripts
Dec 23 19:24:04 <Digital_Pioneer> http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Volume At the bottom
Dec 23 19:24:47 <Tig|> hmm my freerunner really did not  like that last deep discharge :(  17hrs on the charger and 10hrs on usb and still dead :(
Dec 23 19:24:52 <lindi-> Digital_Pioneer: pymixer.py?
Dec 23 19:24:52 <admiral0> thanks
Dec 23 19:25:00 <Digital_Pioneer> lindi-: Yeah
Dec 23 19:25:21 <lindi-> Digital_Pioneer: imho it is not very nice idea to modify files that are under /usr
Dec 23 19:25:27 <lindi-> Digital_Pioneer: configuration files belong to /etc
Dec 23 19:25:40 <Digital_Pioneer> lindi-: Indeed. So how to I fix it? :P
Dec 23 19:25:40 <lindi-> Digital_Pioneer: but pymixer.py still modifies them in /usr
Dec 23 19:26:03 <lindi-> first of all, start doing daily backups, they really pay off
Dec 23 19:26:16 <lindi-> Digital_Pioneer: it's impossible to guess what you changed with pymixer 
Dec 23 19:27:04 <Digital_Pioneer> So..... There's no way to revert it? Can't I reinstall a few packages or something?
Dec 23 19:27:26 <lindi-> Digital_Pioneer: sure you can reinstall the package that has the file
Dec 23 19:27:33 <admiral0> lindi- but this makes a vmlinux. I arrived there
Dec 23 19:27:45 <Digital_Pioneer> lindi-: Which is that? :P
Dec 23 19:27:52 <lindi-> Digital_Pioneer: apt-get --reinstall install $(dpkg -S /usr/share/openmoko/scenarios/gsmhandset.state|cut -d: -f1)
Dec 23 19:28:10 <lindi-> Digital_Pioneer: i lack opkg skills
Dec 23 19:28:26 <admiral0> my problem is that uboot loads but it says "Bad Data CRC"
Dec 23 19:28:40 <dos1> opkg install -reinstall openmoko-scenarios
Dec 23 19:28:42 <dos1> or something like that
Dec 23 19:28:55 <lindi-> admiral0: i'd still want to know how you edited your uboot_env
Dec 23 19:31:19 <admiral0> lindi- connecting to ttyAC1 when in dfu mode ?
Dec 23 19:31:36 <lindi-> admiral0: that lets you modify uboot_Env?
Dec 23 19:31:58 <admiral0> yes
Dec 23 19:32:16 <admiral0> saveenv saves to nand
Dec 23 19:32:38 <admiral0> i just used and modified commands i saw on wiki
Dec 23 19:33:04 <lindi-> interesting
Dec 23 19:33:24 <admiral0> lindi- why?
Dec 23 19:35:22 <lindi-> admiral0: i did not know that was possible
Dec 23 19:35:51 <admiral0> all is possible in a open source world XD
Dec 23 19:36:39 <Digital_Pioneer> Ahh, got it. :)
Dec 23 19:37:21 <admiral0> now to my next problem...why can't i boot with my fresh compiled kernel?
Dec 23 19:37:59 <Slaxxer> how big is it?
Dec 23 19:38:10 <admiral0> it's bigger than 2MB
Dec 23 19:38:25 <admiral0> but it doesn't boot with qi neither
Dec 23 19:38:31 <Slaxxer> so u modified uboot?
Dec 23 19:39:51 <admiral0> no i tried qi... but i have no response from kernel nor kernel panic
Dec 23 19:40:17 <jonsmith1982> is there an application that help me visualise the axis orientation of the accelerometers?
Dec 23 20:42:33 <Tig|> hi all,  got a deeply discharged freerunner,   took the battery out for a couple of mins then it has had over 12hrs on wall charger and 12 hours on USB and still dead,  any other ideas before I wait until I can get hold of a suitable nokia battery to jump start it off?
Dec 23 20:47:38 <dos1> Tig|: take the battery out, push aux button, take battery in and turn on freerunner
Dec 23 20:47:57 <Tig|> dos1: tried that :(
Dec 23 20:48:36 <Tig|> I guess I should have got around to updating uboot from the factory one
Dec 23 23:15:17 <thelma> anyone have a real success with a bluetooth headset and the gta02?
Dec 23 23:16:34 <thelma> (by "real success" I mean able to consistently get stable audio in call...not answer button, volume, etc...)
Dec 23 23:20:40 <thelma> no one using a bluetooth headset?
Dec 23 23:20:55 <rooly> i've got one, but it refuses to work
Dec 23 23:21:05 <rooly> (i'm using qt 4.3.2
Dec 23 23:21:06 <rooly> )
Dec 23 23:23:10 <thelma> rooly, ever tried it w/ SHR or 2008.XX?
Dec 23 23:23:27 <rooly> thelma, plenty of times, but i was never succesful
Dec 23 23:23:42 <rooly> it might be because of my earpiece, which is a 520 plantronics
Dec 23 23:24:09 <rooly> but i haven't had a chance to test with any others...so...i dunno
Dec 23 23:25:13 <thelma> hmmm.... thanks
Dec 23 23:29:55 <RJ812> who can help me use full illume keyboard?
Dec 23 23:32:43 <rooly> which
Dec 23 23:32:54 <rooly> the one included with  qtopia, or the illume keyboard itself
Dec 23 23:33:07 <RJ812> include qith qtopia
Dec 23 23:33:16 <RJ812> it only alpha leyboard
Dec 23 23:33:16 <rooly> its in the topic
Dec 23 23:33:19 <RJ812> it only alpha keyboard
Dec 23 23:33:41 <rooly> hit /topic
Dec 23 23:34:32 <RJ812> Developers, please join #openmoko-cdevel | Freerunner is in stock in some resellers. | http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Quickstart | See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/GPS_Problems | Keyboard numbers for 2008.8 : slide finger up on the keyboard
Dec 23 23:34:50 <rooly> you didn't need to copy it
Dec 23 23:34:55 <rooly> just read it
Dec 23 23:34:57 <RJ812> how to display keyboard like images http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Image:Illume-Keyboard-Screenshot.png
Dec 23 23:34:59 <RJ812> :-s
Dec 23 23:35:15 <rooly> thats the illume keyboard
Dec 23 23:35:40 <rooly> you should be able to install it via "opkg install illume-config illume-config-illume"
Dec 23 23:35:45 <RJ812> ys, but my keyboard only alpha, not number :s
Dec 23 23:36:31 <UndrWater> read the topic...last sentence
Dec 23 23:36:49 <rooly> UndrWater, he wants the illume keyboard
Dec 23 23:37:02 <RJ812> a`
Dec 23 23:37:03 <RJ812> ok
Dec 23 23:37:17 <RJ812> slide finger up ^^
Dec 23 23:37:37 <rooly> actually, you slide finger from up to down to get the numbers
Dec 23 23:49:46 <sybesis> hi
Dec 23 23:49:55 <igor321> howdy
Dec 23 23:50:03 <F4t> hola
Dec 23 23:50:18 <mwester> greetings
Dec 23 23:50:35 <sybesis> i just rapidly searched the wiki because i have a funny / great idea
Dec 23 23:50:53 <rooly> whasat
Dec 23 23:51:04 <rooly> mwester, how goes qte 4.4.3?
Dec 23 23:51:10 <sybesis> would it be possible to make something like a voice responder and saving message to the phone
Dec 23 23:51:26 <igor321> yupp
Dec 23 23:51:26 <rooly> sure it would
Dec 23 23:51:38 <rooly> honestly, it wouldn't be to particularly difficult
Dec 23 23:51:53 <sybesis> and it would save me 5$ per month
Dec 23 23:52:12 <rooly> now, you just gotta make it outta qt and everyone can use it
Dec 23 23:52:29 <sybesis> i first need the openmoko
Dec 23 23:52:39 <rooly> true, there is that
Dec 23 23:52:43 <F4t> u can use the emulator in the qte sdk :)
Dec 23 23:52:51 <sybesis> qt or whatever...i could make it cli or a daemon
Dec 23 23:54:12 <sybesis> but it would be seriously awesome because phone provider give this voice message at a cost...while it wouldnt work if my cellphone is closed
Dec 23 23:54:20 <sybesis> but for the rest of the time it would
Dec 23 23:56:30 <sybesis> holy shit
Dec 23 23:57:11 <sybesis> the first time im worried about the economy
Dec 23 23:57:13 <sybesis> :(
Dec 23 23:57:26 <sybesis> 299$ USD = lot more $$$ CAD
Dec 24 00:02:22 <Sargun> Canadians are rich.
Dec 24 00:02:46 <almien> sybesis: it's all a lie and the people printing money are the biggest criminals in the business.  grin and bear it ;)
Dec 24 00:04:35 <sybesis> ahah
Dec 24 00:05:06 <sybesis> if we start burning our money
Dec 24 00:05:41 <sybesis> less there are money in the pocket the more it has value?
Dec 24 00:05:47 <Zorkman> that is illegal sybesis :)
Dec 24 00:06:09 <sybesis> accident arent illegal
Dec 24 00:06:39 <almien> sybesis: it can only have value if you can prevent the government printing it
Dec 24 00:07:18 <almien> unlike douglas adam's leaves
Dec 24 00:07:24 <sybesis> hmmm
Dec 24 00:07:29 <sybesis> then...
Dec 24 00:07:47 <sybesis> i cant say that on irc
Dec 24 00:08:04 <karin> How do I send stuff over bluetooth with SHR? :P
Dec 24 00:08:22 <karin> can someone give me an example command?
Dec 24 00:09:09 <sybesis> hmmmm does SHR use bluez?
Dec 24 00:09:26 <rooly> yes
Dec 24 00:09:34 <Zorkman> there was a file server bluetooth thingy on the ML a while ago
Dec 24 00:10:15 <sybesis> then i guess unless anyone here has a specific command line for it...anything that use bluez would work
Dec 24 00:10:38 <sybesis> i know how to connect to a usb host but i dont remember how to send files
Dec 24 00:10:48 <sybesis> damn i'm on windows...brb
Dec 24 00:11:28 <Zorkman> damn
Dec 24 00:11:31 <Zorkman> just found it :)
Dec 24 00:15:38 <karin> Zorkman: what was it? :P
Dec 24 00:16:07 <Zorkman> http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Manually_using_Bluetooth#OBEX
Dec 24 00:16:21 <SQlvpapir> this is nice app for phones :D http://www.fianceexposed.com/index.php?c=viral&m=index&id=4b9baa900fba41b4151ac0f19d0cf590
Dec 24 00:17:29 <karin> Zorkman: TY!
Dec 24 00:17:34 <Zorkman> np karin
Dec 24 00:17:54 <Zorkman> write us a nice GUI for SHR; I ask no more than that in return ;-)
Dec 24 00:18:32 <Slaxxer> yea thats what we need
Dec 24 00:19:17 <karin> Zorkman: I don't think you want a java gui for that ;)
Dec 24 00:19:32 <Zorkman> karin: why not?
Dec 24 00:19:35 <Zorkman> better than nothing :p
Dec 24 00:19:43 <Zorkman> and there has been a lot of work on java on the FR lately :p
Dec 24 00:20:01 <karin> nice, then Ill maybe write one :P
Dec 24 00:20:08 <karin> Well now im off for bed
Dec 24 00:20:09 <Zorkman> :D
Dec 24 00:20:12 <karin> good night folks
Dec 24 00:20:18 <Zorkman> night
Dec 24 00:22:34 <Digital_Pioneer> OK, it seems the mic is too loud when I'm on speakerphone. It causes the computer on the other end (I haven't tried it with a person) to go nuts.
Dec 24 00:23:04 <Digital_Pioneer> The computer uses voice recognition, and just keeps saying it didn't understand. I think it's getting loud background noise and assuming it's me talking.
Dec 24 00:23:11 <Digital_Pioneer> It only happens in speakerphone.
Dec 24 00:23:27 <Sargun> Digital_Pioneer, Dude, the Openmoko is a weapon.
Dec 24 00:23:34 <Sargun> you call people, and speak
Dec 24 00:23:52 <Sargun> They go insane, and kill themselves.
Dec 24 00:23:55 <Digital_Pioneer> LOL
Dec 24 00:41:04 <Digital_Pioneer> OK, how do I change the ringtone and SMS alert sound?
Dec 24 00:45:20 <orzo> ogsmd    WARNING  Out-of-spec GSM number type seen: 161. Please report.
Dec 24 00:46:11 <F4t> lool release date of gta03... 2012 :D
Dec 24 00:46:22 <F4t> phones will fly by then :)
Dec 24 00:47:19 <orzo> my gsmhandset.state isnt getting set
Dec 24 00:48:59 <orzo> openmoko-cdevel
Dec 24 01:12:48 <EddieOfTheRocks> I've got the new 2008.12 openmoko running on my freerunner but I can't figure out how to get to the terminal!
Dec 24 01:13:50 <sybesis> have you tried to scream "Open Terminal" in the mic?
Dec 24 01:14:10 <EddieOfTheRocks> No, will that work?
Dec 24 01:14:31 <sybesis> theres only one way to know
Dec 24 01:14:42 <EddieOfTheRocks> That didn't work :(
Dec 24 01:14:46 <sybesis> :(
Dec 24 01:14:56 <muxe> :)
Dec 24 01:15:21 <sybesis> well i was going to tell you open the terminal and write terminal
Dec 24 01:15:24 <sybesis> hmm
Dec 24 01:15:38 <EddieOfTheRocks> heh heh
Dec 24 01:16:10 <EddieOfTheRocks> You haven't used this new version?
Dec 24 01:16:40 <sybesis> to be honest i still dont have a openmoko in my hand
Dec 24 01:16:42 <sybesis> :(
Dec 24 01:16:47 <EddieOfTheRocks> Oh
Dec 24 01:17:25 <EddieOfTheRocks> Hmmm, What to do....
Dec 24 01:17:39 <sybesis> i have to convince my father that if i buy a cheap cell phone to replace my broken one..it will probably die in one year or so
Dec 24 01:18:08 <EddieOfTheRocks> Well, makes sense to me :)
Dec 24 01:18:47 <sybesis> makes sens to me 
Dec 24 01:18:51 <sybesis> not to him
Dec 24 01:18:53 <EddieOfTheRocks> Does anybody here know how to access the stupid terminal in the new openmoko or at least this mystical wireless gui????
Dec 24 01:19:19 <EddieOfTheRocks> Well, fathers can be so misunderstanding when it comes to those things
Dec 24 01:20:07 <jonsmith1982> EddieOfTheRocks, through usb?
Dec 24 01:20:07 <sybesis> my guess is that you can probably edit a file that has those "links" 
Dec 24 01:20:19 <sybesis> and add manually a terminal from there
Dec 24 01:20:42 <EddieOfTheRocks> jonsmith1982: I'm out of luck as far as that goes for now. I was hoping to configure the wifi on the device, and access it through there.
Dec 24 01:21:01 <jonsmith1982> out of luck?
Dec 24 01:21:02 <EddieOfTheRocks> Rrr, why would they all of a sudden eliminate that link
Dec 24 01:21:18 <sybesis> i admit its kind of stupid
Dec 24 01:21:25 <EddieOfTheRocks> I don't have access to a computer that was those drivers compiled into the kernel
Dec 24 01:21:32 <EddieOfTheRocks> usb network drivers that is
Dec 24 01:21:38 <jonsmith1982> ah right.
Dec 24 01:22:28 <EddieOfTheRocks> This no secret sequence like ctrl-alt-f1 on a computer?
Dec 24 01:22:38 <EddieOfTheRocks> s/this/there is/
Dec 24 01:23:11 <sybesis> what does ctrl+alt+f1 do?
Dec 24 01:23:43 <EddieOfTheRocks> Well, it brings you to a raw terminal
Dec 24 01:23:44 <sybesis> you mean hotkey?
Dec 24 01:23:54 <jonsmith1982> it will be difficult to do without any usb
Dec 24 01:24:01 <sybesis> holy shit thats true
Dec 24 01:24:02 <sybesis> but
Dec 24 01:24:06 <EddieOfTheRocks> Argh, this will be the death of me.
Dec 24 01:24:09 <sybesis> my fedora box doesnt 
Dec 24 01:24:12 <sybesis> D:
Dec 24 01:24:20 <sybesis> omg
Dec 24 01:24:22 <jonsmith1982> i think the only way would be to modify the rootfs.
Dec 24 01:24:32 <sybesis> ctrl+alt+f1 on fedora is the gui
Dec 24 01:24:49 <EddieOfTheRocks> k, ctrl-alt-f2
Dec 24 01:25:28 <sybesis> i guess there is no terminal like that
Dec 24 01:25:33 <EddieOfTheRocks> rrrr, stupid thing. Now I have to beg an IT guy to let me recompile a kernel
Dec 24 01:25:37 <sybesis> unless you have an extern keyboard
Dec 24 01:25:48 <mwester> put a proper image on the phone.
Dec 24 01:26:14 <mwester> see the wiki for the urls to other images, i would suggest the Qt Extended or the SHR distros.
Dec 24 01:26:49 <mwester> But I hear that for those who like the Om 2008.x stuff, a less-horrible version is called "fdom".
Dec 24 01:27:34 <EddieOfTheRocks> I just want something that will give me a phone, work with the GPS/WIFI, easily sync my evolution contacts/calendar.
Dec 24 01:27:45 <EddieOfTheRocks> Which would you suggest for that?
Dec 24 01:28:54 <mwester> one of the 2010 images
Dec 24 01:29:00 <EddieOfTheRocks> heh heh
Dec 24 01:29:06 <mwester> obviously, you'll have to be somewhat patient.
Dec 24 01:29:38 <EddieOfTheRocks> Well, okay, which image is moving in that direction?
Dec 24 01:29:45 <EddieOfTheRocks> or project I should say
Dec 24 01:29:47 <mwester> SHR
Dec 24 01:30:10 <mwester> actually SHR/FSO (FSO is the underlying framework upon which the SHR UI is built)
Dec 24 01:31:02 <mwester> Qt Extended may be going in that direction,but they've not been very active lately -- the big missing bit there is the GPS, and I have no idea if they can sync or not.
Dec 24 01:31:14 <mwester> Android is, well, proprietary, and doesn't yet work even as a phone.
Dec 24 01:31:29 <mwester> 2008.x is an evolutionary dead-end.
Dec 24 01:32:23 <mwester> Debian is fun for those who want an itty-bitty desktop that "oh by the way" also can do some phone-like features.  Cool, but the focus is not phone.
Dec 24 01:33:27 <mwester> But no matter what, the current situation is that no distros have working wifi, and there are some fundamental hardware problems with the phone part that are yet outstanding issues.
Dec 24 01:33:42 <EddieOfTheRocks> Hardware problems?
Dec 24 01:33:47 <EddieOfTheRocks> I don't like the sound of that
Dec 24 01:34:05 <jonsmith1982> any news on the mass fix for the buzz issue?
Dec 24 01:34:39 <swetland> out of curiosity, what does "Android is proprietary" imply here?  I mean given that it is available in source (Apache2,BSD,GPLv2,etc licenses) and you can do what you like with it, what's the issue? 
Dec 24 01:35:48 <Slaxxer> using 2008.12 now as a usable phone
Dec 24 01:36:17 <EddieOfTheRocks> Slaxxer: Really, what functionality are you getting out of it?
Dec 24 01:36:26 <Slaxxer> missed calls
Dec 24 01:36:31 <Slaxxer>  all calls
Dec 24 01:36:44 <EddieOfTheRocks> what about other stuff, sms?
Dec 24 01:36:46 <Slaxxer> outgoing calls
Dec 24 01:36:47 <EddieOfTheRocks> gps?
Dec 24 01:37:00 <EddieOfTheRocks> contacts?
Dec 24 01:37:04 <EddieOfTheRocks> calendar?
Dec 24 01:37:13 <Slaxxer> i havent had much time to try gps
Dec 24 01:37:29 <Slaxxer> contacts work an dial
Dec 24 01:37:43 <Zorkman> EddieOfTheRocks: gps works very well
Dec 24 01:38:07 <EddieOfTheRocks> What about calendar?
Dec 24 01:38:09 <Slaxxer> calender not installed
Dec 24 01:38:10 <mwester> swetland:  that's been discussed all over the place.    Just because the source is available doesn't make it a truely open environment.
Dec 24 01:38:26 <Slaxxer> suspend is working for me
Dec 24 01:38:38 <Zorkman> for me suspend is also working great (SHR)
Dec 24 01:38:40 <EddieOfTheRocks> What about wifi?
Dec 24 01:38:51 <Slaxxer> i try
Dec 24 01:39:14 <Slaxxer> no default terminal
Dec 24 01:39:25 <Zorkman> Slaxxer: depends on which distro
Dec 24 01:39:43 <EddieOfTheRocks> Yeah, how does one access the terminal on a fresh install?
Dec 24 01:39:51 <swetland> mwester: news to me.
Dec 24 01:40:12 <Zorkman> EddieOfTheRocks: most distributions have a terminal standard installed
Dec 24 01:40:39 <Zorkman> (SHR, FSO, 2007.2, Qtext -broken in last 4.4.3, but hypnotise made an immage with it)
Dec 24 01:40:41 <EddieOfTheRocks> I just did a 2008.12 install and I can't figure how to open the termainl
Dec 24 01:40:46 <swetland> how does it fail to be "truly open".  Is there a checklist somewhere for true openness? 
Dec 24 01:40:50 <Zorkman> if you don'thave a terminal: just ssh in and opkg install it
Dec 24 01:41:08 <EddieOfTheRocks> Well, I need to setup the wifi to get into it
Dec 24 01:41:10 <mwester> swetland:  ok.  well, the best way to understand the technical non-openness of the environment would be to take on a project to port any of the existing GPS applications (tangogps, for example) to run under Android on the GTA02.
Dec 24 01:41:18 <Zorkman> EddieOfTheRocks: jsut plugin the usb cable...
Dec 24 01:41:24 <EddieOfTheRocks> rrrrr
Dec 24 01:41:36 <swetland> so it's not open because it does not provide identical APIs to other platforms?
Dec 24 01:41:43 <EddieOfTheRocks> I don't have access to a computer that has a gpsnet enabled kernel
Dec 24 01:41:53 <mwester> swetland:  but frankly you sound like you want to argue about the meaning of "open".   I don't waste my time with that sort of bullshit.
Dec 24 01:42:23 <raster> EddieOfTheRocks: usbnet
Dec 24 01:42:23 <Zorkman> EddieOfTheRocks: vmware windows on it :po
Dec 24 01:42:28 <raster> EddieOfTheRocks:  u dont need to set up wifi
Dec 24 01:42:44 <EddieOfTheRocks> rrr
Dec 24 01:42:48 <swetland> you're welcome not to.  I would consider claiming something that's fully source available under normal open source licenses is "not truly open" or "proprietary" could also be considered "bullshit", but maybe that's just me ^^
Dec 24 01:42:49 <mwester> swetland:  But if I'm wrong, and you truely feel that it's "open" then take on my challenge, and tell the community when you have a version of tangogps running under android.  :)
Dec 24 01:42:52 <raster> EddieOfTheRocks:  wtf? no usbnet?
Dec 24 01:43:05 <EddieOfTheRocks> Fine I'll re-compile my kernel. What a hassle
Dec 24 01:43:07 <swetland> I have no idea what tangogps is. I'm unclear why it matters here.
Dec 24 01:43:40 * raster has gotten rather sick of the word "open"
Dec 24 01:43:58 <swetland> it's a rather excessively loaded term at times, to be sure
Dec 24 01:43:59 * Zorkman doesn't care if some people call it open or not
Dec 24 01:44:07 <mwester> swetland:  because I'm talking "practical" with a real-world example of a bit of source code that is considered portable and already runs under multiple distros on the same hardware.  You seem to be talking "lawyer" and want to argue licensing. I don't do licenses, I do code.  
Dec 24 01:44:17 <swetland> I also so code
Dec 24 01:44:21 <mwester> so port it.
Dec 24 01:44:23 <swetland> s/so/do/
Dec 24 01:44:23 <apt> swetland meant: I aldo so code
Dec 24 01:44:25 <mwester> tell me when you're done.
Dec 24 01:44:29 <swetland> why? I don't need it
Dec 24 01:44:34 <swetland> I don't even know what it is
Dec 24 01:44:35 <mwester> bullshit answer.
Dec 24 01:44:45 <mwester> how about porting xterm.
Dec 24 01:44:51 <Slaxxer> just do it for us
Dec 24 01:44:57 <swetland> I just don't understand why "some random app I like does not run on platform X" means that platform is closed or proprietary
Dec 24 01:45:00 <Slaxxer> for we
Dec 24 01:45:16 <swetland> there's a terminal app included in the system source
Dec 24 01:45:20 <cjb> mwester: it sounds like neither of you are talking licenses.  it sounds like you're saying that something that runs Java apps isn't "open" because you don't like Java.
Dec 24 01:45:31 <mwester> cjb:  java is fine.
Dec 24 01:45:43 <swetland> I mean I have no problem if you want to say "I think it's useless because it doesn't provide X/GTK/whatever"
Dec 24 01:45:49 <EddieOfTheRocks> Man, how I have to figure out how to use this stupid usbnet thing. ifconfig usb0 turns up nothing. ARGH
Dec 24 01:45:54 <mwester> cjb:  the lack of the standard OS libs and lack of any support for ui's and access to hardware is what is non-open.
Dec 24 01:45:55 <swetland> that's perfectly reasonable.
Dec 24 01:46:09 <mwester> cjb:   the device runs a modified Linux kernel, and that's about as open as it is.
Dec 24 01:46:16 <Zorkman> just to get this right: will it never be possible to run tangogps on android (because it isn't java and emulating it would consume too much) ?
Dec 24 01:46:16 * raster hi-5's mwester over code
Dec 24 01:46:31 <swetland> so open means "linux and X and gtk".  now I understand. ^^
Dec 24 01:46:36 <cjb> mwester: right, so what swetland just said.  there's certainly a big difference between a stock Linux distro and something as self-referential as Android.
Dec 24 01:46:54 <cjb> Zorkman: yes, that's probably correct.
Dec 24 01:47:09 <cjb> Android says "if you want to run on Android, then write a Java app that specificially conforms to the Android API".
Dec 24 01:47:29 <swetland> actually there's no reason one couldn't support X/GTK/etc side by side.  it's certainly not a priority for the team working on it at Google.
Dec 24 01:47:36 <Slaxxer> wifi works on 2008.12
Dec 24 01:47:53 <cjb> that's very different to running standard X/GTK stuff.  but it's not "closed".. "closed-minded" might fit.
Dec 24 01:48:32 <EddieOfTheRocks> the USB Networking wiki page is pretty ambiguous as to what drivers need to be compiled in
Dec 24 01:48:33 <raster> swetland:  i'm actually disappointed on the "lets do a new windowing system" thing of android instead of using a well known standard thats easy to develop for
Dec 24 01:48:50 <swetland> we have limited resources and our goal includes helping people ship successful mobile phones based on the platform.  While I'm sure this is blasphemy in these parts, X11 and GTK were never considered priorities to accomplish that.
Dec 24 01:49:17 * mwester considers all this argument to be nothing more than "Clintoning" -- arguing about the definition of "it".
Dec 24 01:49:35 * raster drags monica into the room
Dec 24 01:49:39 <Slaxxer> thet did a good job so far on 2008.12
Dec 24 01:49:44 <mwester> Ah, so the truth comes out - swetland is an Android.
Dec 24 01:49:58 <mwester> sorry, wouldn't have bothered engaging had I known.
Dec 24 01:50:01 <swetland> proprietary has some very definite meanings involving exclusion and lack of access
Dec 24 01:50:21 <Sargun_Screen> raster: who is monica?
Dec 24 01:50:23 <swetland> apologies for secretly ircing under my given name.  
Dec 24 01:50:33 <raster> Sargun_Screen:  see mwester's comment
Dec 24 01:50:33 <raster> :)
Dec 24 01:50:40 <mwester> it's like arguing GPL vs Apache licensing with Stallman.
Dec 24 01:50:52 * raster shudders
Dec 24 01:50:55 <Slaxxer> microsoft is in the processs of infiltraiting an destroying/consuming open source i think
Dec 24 01:50:57 <EddieOfTheRocks> Now I have to restart this computer with this new kernel. MAN
Dec 24 01:57:27 <raster> swetland: dont get it wrong - i'd just like to see andorid play along with everyone else
Dec 24 01:57:36 <raster> having a "yet another display system" to code for
Dec 24 01:57:43 <raster> that doesnt run natively on my desktop
Dec 24 01:58:05 <raster> and that people who have done deskto development for years have to go learn... seems a little alienating to me
Dec 24 01:58:16 <raster> it's be nice inf android played along with x11
Dec 24 01:58:20 <raster> err it'd
Dec 24 01:58:42 <swetland> I think that's where there's a fundamental difference in design philosophy -- we assume embedded is embedded and desktop is desktop and are not sure we want to bring all the desktop technologies along just because the desktop has them
Dec 24 01:58:56 <swetland> hell, we may be wrong. wouldn't be the first time I was wrong about something.
Dec 24 01:59:01 <raster> :)
Dec 24 01:59:12 <swetland> in which case we'll evolve or we'll die off
Dec 24 01:59:17 <raster> bringing x tho and the idea of a wm etc. i dont see as foreign to embeded
Dec 24 01:59:20 <Digital_Pioneer> How do I change the ringtone on this thing??
Dec 24 01:59:40 <raster> for a long time i thought  it might be better being "different"
Dec 24 01:59:49 <raster> thats a big reason for an fb enigne in evas
Dec 24 01:59:54 <swetland> I'm not sure I agree with X as the lowest level abstraction -- and don't some of the fancier new hw accel X systems sit on top of GL?
Dec 24 02:00:10 <raster> but over time i've come to go "well.. it doesnt buy ou much - and loses you more. costs effort and time"
Dec 24 02:00:23 <raster> gl doesnt handle multilpe apps
Dec 24 02:00:29 <raster> gl is not a windowing system
Dec 24 02:00:32 <raster> it is simply a drawing api
Dec 24 02:00:44 <raster> hell xgl is an xserver using gl to draw
Dec 24 02:00:58 <raster> in this case gl is simply the driver layer
Dec 24 02:00:58 <swetland> we're working with silicon vendors to ensure multiple context support is in so we have use it both in apps and in the compositing engine / window manager
Dec 24 02:01:13 <mjr> Just because something isn't proprietary doesn't mean it's very open either. I mean, sure, the gimp file format is free and all, but how "open" is it to have a somewhat sanitized dump of internals there with the recommendation not to use it with basically anything else. And that's pretty much how I view the qtopia and android and all other "yay let's do our own thing" window systems that don't really exclude, but don't really include either
Dec 24 02:01:25 <swetland> because we'd like to be able to use GL as a hw render path for apps rendering into windows and for combining windows, etc
Dec 24 02:01:48 <raster> xgl + xcomposite + xdmagae
Dec 24 02:01:48 <raster> done
Dec 24 02:02:01 <swetland> mjr: I seriously wasn't trying to start some huge flamewar about openness.  I just was interested in what specifically was getting us branded with "proprietary"
Dec 24 02:02:07 <raster> (well the short version - the nitty details of course are a longer story - but its the same long story regardless)
Dec 24 02:03:15 <mjr> swetland, yes well, there's the single vendor control aspect
Dec 24 02:03:40 <raster> technically android doesnt accomplish anything x can't
Dec 24 02:03:57 <raster> of course you simplified thnigs by not dragging along a bunch of technology you may not currently want
Dec 24 02:04:00 <swetland> mjr: nothing stops somebody from taking the code and running with it.  I mean we're moving day to day development out into the open and if we suck, but the code is useful, people will fork. so it goes.
Dec 24 02:04:07 <raster> but there will come a time.. when you will want it :)
Dec 24 02:04:16 <mwester> swetland:  "if you have to ask, it's not open"  --- you can argue the "legalese" all day long, and the lawyers may agree that something is, in the end, "open" -- but it's the community that determines the reputation.  And right now, the inability to port common, everyday apps that run on linux. solaris, cygus, or even on Windows makes it, for all practical non-lawyer terms, closed.
Dec 24 02:04:51 <swetland> mwester: at this point I think there's no need for us to continue this discussion.  Thank you for sharing your views.
Dec 24 02:05:08 <mjr> "you can fork if you don't like it", well, it rings to me a freedom bell, not an openness bell
Dec 24 02:05:25 <raster> swetland:  if you guys are thinking of doing an x11 port" of andorid's windowing layer.. tell me... :)
Dec 24 02:05:28 <mwester> swetland:  you're so gracious.
Dec 24 02:05:32 <swetland> but that's true of every project out there
Dec 24 02:05:50 <swetland> that's what open source gives you -- no obligation to keep going one way if you want to go another
Dec 24 02:05:55 <mjr> XFree86 was pretty closed like that, while being free. 'lo, they forked it, and the fork took over, and was more open
Dec 24 02:05:58 <swetland> (well, one of many things)
Dec 24 02:06:32 <Sargun_Screen> The fork has bugs elike no other.
Dec 24 02:06:49 <mjr> (though at least XFree86 always followed an open standard, so it's not a perfect analogy)
Dec 24 02:07:27 <Tm_T> mjr: indeed
Dec 24 02:08:30 <swetland> raster: we'd be more likely to support X on top of our compositer instead of the other way around.  But the compositer can work against any reasonable drawing surface, so it could be stacked the other way as well.  Full integration with an external window manager (where the platform window management system wasn't working out window ordering, etc) would be trickier
Dec 24 02:09:33 <raster> swetland: the 2nd is what i'd like :)
Dec 24 02:09:49 <swetland> I am shocked, shocked to hear you say this. ^^
Dec 24 02:09:54 <raster> ehehhehee
Dec 24 02:09:55 <raster> :)
Dec 24 02:10:12 <swetland> I bet somebody will do it, given time.
Dec 24 02:10:20 <raster> :)
Dec 24 02:10:31 <Digital_Pioneer> Does NOBODY know how to set the *ringtone* on a Freerunner? It's virtually the most customizable phone in the world, and no-one can set the ringtone??
Dec 24 02:10:32 <raster> also c apis for android
Dec 24 02:10:36 <raster> at least the lower levels
Dec 24 02:10:41 <swetland> unless we fail spectacularly, in which case nobody will care, but somebody may *still* do it because people spend a lot of effort emulating random dead playforms
Dec 24 02:10:44 <Zorkman> Digital_Pioneer: which distro.?
Dec 24 02:10:49 <Digital_Pioneer> Zorkman: SHR
Dec 24 02:10:54 <swetland> raster: that's in the works
Dec 24 02:10:57 <Zorkman> it's in the wiki
Dec 24 02:11:04 <raster> swetland:  thumbs up for that
Dec 24 02:11:07 <Digital_Pioneer> Zorkman: I can't find it anywhere.
Dec 24 02:11:18 <Zorkman> Digital_Pioneer: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FSO_ringtones
Dec 24 02:11:25 <raster> if you can do that - i might be willing to put some time into doing api replacements for the windowing-level stuff
Dec 24 02:11:28 <raster> that run on x
Dec 24 02:11:40 <raster> so kind of a "meet me half-way"
Dec 24 02:11:42 <swetland> first step will be NDK (native dev kit), providing everything anyone would want for building and bundling .so libs in your android app to extend your java stuff with native code)
Dec 24 02:11:48 <raster> but it'd be on my "sometime later" list
Dec 24 02:11:54 <mwester> And don't forget the use of a standard full libc as well.
Dec 24 02:12:00 <swetland> that's being cleaned up and will be out there before long
Dec 24 02:12:01 <Zorkman> Digital_Pioneer: just look at the milestone 3 way, that is what you need
Dec 24 02:12:12 <Digital_Pioneer> Zorkman: OK, thanks. :)
Dec 24 02:12:15 <Zorkman> np
Dec 24 02:12:49 <Zorkman> night all, tomorrow I'm expecting a fully working kernel, 5days batt life and tangogps on Android ;-)
Dec 24 02:12:53 <Digital_Pioneer> Zorkman: What's this .sid file? I've never seen that before...
Dec 24 02:12:57 <swetland> longer term, I'd expect to do sorta game-level full native apps (provide windowing, gl, audio, input), then expand that to start exposing higher level services (remoted access to the various storage/data apis, etc, etc)
Dec 24 02:13:21 <Zorkman> Digital_Pioneer: it's music from commodore 64
Dec 24 02:13:29 <Digital_Pioneer> Weird.
Dec 24 02:13:33 <raster> swetland:  thats all i'd ask for really
Dec 24 02:13:38 <Zorkman> yeah it's retro stuff
Dec 24 02:13:43 <swetland> zorkman: I can give you 10 days network-on standby, data not active, on G1/ADP1
Dec 24 02:13:47 <raster> swetland: well the rest would be nice - but the lower levels would make ti easier to integarte stuff
Dec 24 02:14:00 <swetland> raster: yup. that's why we're prioritizing it that way
Dec 24 02:14:01 <Zorkman> swetland: yeah, but i want to use it as a phone ;-)
Dec 24 02:14:10 <swetland> zorkman: G1/ADP1 works great as a phone
Dec 24 02:14:26 <Zorkman> yeah, but I don't have a G1; and do have a FR
Dec 24 02:14:30 <swetland> I've used mine since months before ship back when the baseband was crazy rocky.
Dec 24 02:14:47 <Zorkman> and i like my FR, it just needs some serious pimping by kernel guys, some hw mods and some genuine raster-eyecandy
Dec 24 02:16:11 <Sargun_Screen> I don't like the the G
Dec 24 02:16:17 <Sargun_Screen> G1
Dec 24 02:16:40 <mwester> uhoh - Sargun_Screen you'll end up on swetland's shitlist too.
Dec 24 02:16:50 <CIA-48> freesmartphone.org: 03daniel 07framework * r7a57b235cf9d 10/framework/subsystems/ogsmd/ (4 files in 3 dirs): 
Dec 24 02:16:50 <CIA-48> freesmartphone.org: ogsmd: Add support for AcT and remove duplicate plusCREG
Dec 24 02:16:50 <CIA-48> freesmartphone.org: Modems that support more than just GPRS will have an additional number
Dec 24 02:16:50 <CIA-48> freesmartphone.org: identifying the network access type in +COPS, +CREG and +CGREG.
Dec 24 02:16:50 <CIA-48> freesmartphone.org: 03daniel 07framework * rf9638c6abc0c 10/framework/subsystems/ogsmd/ (3 files in 2 dirs): ogsmd: Make ucs2hexToUnicode into a codec (gsm_ucs2)
Dec 24 02:16:55 <CIA-48> freesmartphone.org: 03daniel 07framework * re8ec83e4b4e9 10/framework/subsystems/ogsmd/modems/ (4 files in 2 dirs): 
Dec 24 02:16:58 <CIA-48> freesmartphone.org: ogsmd: Charsets are now per modem
Dec 24 02:17:00 <CIA-48> freesmartphone.org: Some modems encode *all* strings in ucs2 if you change the charset. This
Dec 24 02:17:02 <CIA-48> freesmartphone.org: allows us to specify the different charsets used for different commands.
Dec 24 02:17:04 <CIA-48> freesmartphone.org: All commands sending or receiving strings as parameters now need to
Dec 24 02:17:06 <CIA-48> freesmartphone.org: encode and decode these strings with the corresponding charset.
Dec 24 02:17:07 <EddieOfTheRocks> does the 2008.12 have a easy method of turning the wifi module on/off?
Dec 24 02:17:23 <swetland> mwester: why? not everyone likes the hardware. that doesn't offend me at all. 
Dec 24 02:17:40 <raster> i do have to say the g1 is less offensive than the fr hw-wise :)
Dec 24 02:17:54 <Tm_T> raster: indeed
Dec 24 02:17:57 <raster> but i dont have a g1
Dec 24 02:18:00 <swetland> some people find it too large, really don't want the keyboard, etc
Dec 24 02:18:00 <mwester> EddieOfTheRocks:  that requires a very new kernel -- if your kernel is still the old 2.6.24 kernel, it can't turn on/off the wifi.
Dec 24 02:18:18 <raster> but by the same token - the fr is simply a "does it run" tester for me
Dec 24 02:18:26 <raster> no way i have any hopes of gettign performance out of it
Dec 24 02:18:30 <EddieOfTheRocks> mwester: I see, so once it's enabled, it stays on?
Dec 24 02:18:49 <mwester> EddieOfTheRocks:  I'm afraid so.  But it gets much better with the newer kernel.
Dec 24 02:18:49 <raster> EddieOfTheRocks: wifi driver has all sorts of niggly bugs
Dec 24 02:18:57 <Zorkman> raster: have you tried a G1 and do you expect far better performance from t?
Dec 24 02:19:00 <raster> thats why wifi signal doesnt change when u turn it off
Dec 24 02:19:10 <raster> wifi device stays active and reports > 100% signal
Dec 24 02:19:20 <EddieOfTheRocks> well that sucks
Dec 24 02:19:23 <raster> Zorkman:  i've played with one - but i've read the tech specs
Dec 24 02:19:31 <EddieOfTheRocks> So would upgrading my kernel fix that?
Dec 24 02:19:35 <raster> just the case deisgn + kbd is "less offensive"
Dec 24 02:19:44 <raster> tho.. that little raised end of the g1 is just stupid
Dec 24 02:19:53 <raster> (sorry - need to be honest)
Dec 24 02:19:55 <swetland> so many people hate the chin
Dec 24 02:20:05 <raster> itjust feels like somoene lent on the mould when it was made
Dec 24 02:20:07 <raster> and went "oops"
Dec 24 02:20:08 <raster> :)
Dec 24 02:20:18 <swetland> I'm not an ID guy.  You're not going to upset me by hating on the ID.
Dec 24 02:20:19 <raster> but it does give it some character
Dec 24 02:20:24 <raster> and its unique
Dec 24 02:20:26 <Zorkman> hmmm haven't felt a G1, but i personally like the FR is some aspects of it design (look/feel)
Dec 24 02:20:48 <raster> the fold-out screen on the arm feels "flimsy" to me
Dec 24 02:20:53 <swetland> does the FR have a capacitive touchpanel? or resistive with stylus?
Dec 24 02:20:59 <raster> but other than those 2 things - the g1 is rather un-offensive
Dec 24 02:21:06 <raster> and thats pretty good considering the state of the market
Dec 24 02:21:07 <raster> :)
Dec 24 02:21:13 <Zorkman> swetland: resistive
Dec 24 02:21:20 <swetland> raster: there are a lot of really, really awful phones out there, this is true
Dec 24 02:21:23 <raster> swetland:  resistive and no stylus
Dec 24 02:21:27 <CIA-48> freesmartphone.org: 03daniel 07specs * r01cf08d99071 10/ (2 files in 2 dirs): 
Dec 24 02:21:27 <CIA-48> freesmartphone.org: otapi: Add act property to GSM.Network.ListProviders and GetStatus
Dec 24 02:21:27 <CIA-48> freesmartphone.org: This adds a field to show the network access type (GSM, UMTS, ...)
Dec 24 02:21:56 <raster> (sorry the afterthought included laserpointer pen doesnt count - if you dont include a stylus bay - then its not meant for a stylus)
Dec 24 02:22:02 <raster> the ts is awful on the fr
Dec 24 02:22:11 <raster> it is intended for a stylus hw-wise
Dec 24 02:22:17 <raster> but the whole phone design says "finger"
Dec 24 02:22:22 <raster> but u have to press realyl hard
Dec 24 02:22:28 <raster> to keep it "pressed down"
Dec 24 02:22:40 <swetland> the three things I would change about dram/G1 if I had a chance to go back in time and shout "wtf are you doing" at us back then:
Dec 24 02:22:40 <raster> its as u'd expect - highly innacurate when used with a finger
Dec 24 02:22:50 <swetland> - include a gauge IC for accurate battery metering
Dec 24 02:22:57 <swetland> - dpad instead of trackball
Dec 24 02:23:05 <swetland> - dpad on the keyboard plane, not on the chin
Dec 24 02:23:06 <raster> hmm
Dec 24 02:23:09 <raster> the trackball is cute
Dec 24 02:23:13 <raster> i'd ADD a dpad
Dec 24 02:23:17 <raster> around the trackball
Dec 24 02:23:41 <swetland> that starts getting awfully busy (mechanically it would not fit in that design)
Dec 24 02:23:54 <mwester> EddieOfTheRocks:  I don't run the 2008.x distro, so I cannot say if it can accomodate the API changes introduced with the newer kernel.  So if you are able to upgrade, you may perhaps find that some of the apps will not be able to work correclty.  (or perhaps all will be fine, depends if the distro team made the changes to accomodate then new kernel)
Dec 24 02:24:07 <alphaone> okay, I broke enough today
Dec 24 02:24:09 <alphaone> good night
Dec 24 02:24:18 <EddieOfTheRocks> mwester: What do you run?
Dec 24 02:24:33 <raster> swetland:  sure -0 busy, but useful
Dec 24 02:24:35 <raster> :)
Dec 24 02:24:35 <Zorkman> good night alphaone
Dec 24 02:24:37 <mwester> Everything except 2008.x  -- but mostly Qt Extended, and SHR right now.
Dec 24 02:24:51 <EddieOfTheRocks> Does the wifi work on SHR?
Dec 24 02:25:00 <swetland> anyway, we should see some variety in hw in 2009. hopefully make some more people happy
Dec 24 02:25:12 <mwester> No different than any other distro based on the 2.6.24 kernel.
Dec 24 02:25:15 <raster> swetland:  more variety than openmoko :)
Dec 24 02:25:26 <swetland> and hopefully make some other designs available like the ADP1, unlocked, eng bootloader
Dec 24 02:25:34 * SpeedEvil sighs.
Dec 24 02:25:39 <swetland> is openmoko the software stack or the hardware family or the company?
Dec 24 02:25:45 <SpeedEvil> yes
Dec 24 02:25:45 <swetland> I've always been fuzzy on this
Dec 24 02:25:57 <SpeedEvil> all three.
Dec 24 02:25:57 <raster> ahhaha
Dec 24 02:26:10 <swetland> well that explains my confusion
Dec 24 02:26:17 <swetland> and clears things up (in a way)
Dec 24 02:26:22 <raster> om is a "Flavor" of openembedded - ie a distro customised for the openmoko devices
Dec 24 02:26:28 * SpeedEvil sighs.
Dec 24 02:26:30 <swetland> aaaah
Dec 24 02:26:31 <raster> openmoko inc. is the company
Dec 24 02:26:50 <raster> colloquially a lot of people refer to the freerunenr or gta01 (neo1973) as "openmoko phones"
Dec 24 02:26:55 <raster> as they are made by openmoko
Dec 24 02:26:56 * SpeedEvil wants to rewind back to 2007, and have another try at the whole OM thing.
Dec 24 02:27:00 <raster> but that is technically incorrect
Dec 24 02:27:05 <swetland> I see, so suggesting that somebody might port "openmoko" to something like the ADP1 might be considered offensive?
Dec 24 02:27:11 <EddieOfTheRocks> How does one make ssh available from the wifi interface?
Dec 24 02:27:12 <SpeedEvil> swetland: nope
Dec 24 02:27:14 <raster> as its freerunner (gta02) and neo1973 (gta01) as product names (names of phones)
Dec 24 02:27:36 <SpeedEvil> swetland: openmoko is the distribution - but also the company name and hardware supplier
Dec 24 02:27:52 <SpeedEvil> swetland: you can run openmoko - the distribution - on any hardware you can convince it to run on.
Dec 24 02:27:59 <mwester> EddieOfTheRocks:  you have to edit /etc/defaults/something-or-other-to-do-with-dropbear --- it'll be obvious when you find it.  It restricts the SSH to the USB connection for security reasons.
Dec 24 02:28:04 <swetland> it might be neat to see what it's like on a somewhat snappier cpu with a UMTS radio
Dec 24 02:28:16 <raster> swetland:  no - not at all. for example - i happen to re-use the openmoko distro (which frankly is very close to angstrom) and oe but build my own os images that i run on my n800, freerunner, sharp c760 and palm treo650
Dec 24 02:28:44 <swetland> the bimodal device may be a headache to deal with, though I guess one could run always-in-landscape or whatnot
Dec 24 02:28:59 <raster> wouldnt be too hard
Dec 24 02:29:08 <raster> just rotate
Dec 24 02:29:19 <raster> u'd of course need customising for the bits and pieces
Dec 24 02:29:53 * mwester hopes to aquire an ADP1 to work on getting the FSO/SHR stuff running on it.
Dec 24 02:30:28 <swetland> fso/shr?
Dec 24 02:31:31 <mwester> One of the distros that run on the Openmoko devices, with early support for some other platforms as well.  It's the "new" direction for openmoko-the-company, who is sponsoring some of the development.
Dec 24 02:31:32 <raster> adp1?
Dec 24 02:31:48 <mwester> ADP1 (if I have the acronym right) is the developers version of the G1.
Dec 24 02:31:53 <raster> aaah
Dec 24 02:31:54 <swetland> sorry, android developer phone one
Dec 24 02:32:01 <raster> that one
Dec 24 02:32:06 <raster> that'd be interesting
Dec 24 02:32:10 <mwester> very.
Dec 24 02:32:12 <swetland> G1 and ADP1 are both htc dream, just different paint/plastics
Dec 24 02:32:13 <raster> are all the drivers open?
Dec 24 02:32:23 <EddieOfTheRocks> Something tells me I'm not swapping out my crappy old phone for the freerunner full time quite yet.
Dec 24 02:32:25 <swetland> all the kernel drivers are GPLv2 and available
Dec 24 02:32:39 <raster> how much is done in userspace that isn't?
Dec 24 02:32:42 <swetland> stuff that's *not* open (please to be griping at htc and qualcomm -- we're working on improving this in the future):
Dec 24 02:32:44 <raster> i know the gl isnt open
Dec 24 02:32:48 <raster> (boo!)
Dec 24 02:32:55 <mwester> EddieOfTheRocks:  :( I hope nobody represented that you could do that just yet.  That's still a bit off in the future.  (not too far, I hope)
Dec 24 02:33:11 <swetland> - htc ril (radio interface layer)  library provides glue between the AT control channel and our radio api.  probably not horrible to reverse engineer
Dec 24 02:33:23 <swetland> - libhdl (opengl es library)
Dec 24 02:33:30 <EddieOfTheRocks> Well, I was more interested in the development side of things, but there was a lingering hope :)
Dec 24 02:33:35 <raster> ewww
Dec 24 02:33:37 <raster> radio too eh?
Dec 24 02:33:44 <raster> now that sucketh
Dec 24 02:33:51 <mwester> EddieOfTheRocks:  Lots to be done on the development side!
Dec 24 02:33:54 <swetland> - libgps glue layer between qualcomm rpc and sane compass apis (this will be fixed in a future software update)
Dec 24 02:34:00 <Tm_T> raster: sure, 3G stuff, it's so secret! (;)
Dec 24 02:34:03 <raster> oh god gps too?
Dec 24 02:34:05 <raster> booo!
Dec 24 02:34:06 <raster> :(
Dec 24 02:34:18 <SpeedEvil> The radio layer - is this including the 3G stack?
Dec 24 02:34:25 <swetland> libgps is like 5kb. there's a legal issue with an API (I shit you not) we're working on it
Dec 24 02:34:31 <swetland> the 3g stack runs on another core
Dec 24 02:34:34 <SpeedEvil> ah
Dec 24 02:34:49 <EddieOfTheRocks> Anybody need a C++ programmers help? I'm currently only working part time, my lastest project is http://fastcgipp.com
Dec 24 02:35:01 <swetland> the interface is a virtual serial channel (/dev/ttySMD0) that speaks AT, and 3 virtual ethernet devices (/dev/rmnet[012]) for packet transport
Dec 24 02:35:34 <swetland> there is a library provided by htc that sits between the high level radio abstraction (which you probably don't want anyway) and the AT channel (superset of the GSM/UMTS standard commands)
Dec 24 02:35:44 <mwester> EddieOfTheRocks:  check out the SHR project -- it's mainly python, but there is some need for C and C++ IIRC.  The devs hang about on #openmoko-cdevel, the topic there has the wiki and other info.
Dec 24 02:36:09 <EddieOfTheRocks> mwester: I'll check it out, thanks!
Dec 24 02:36:22 <swetland> I'd expect somebody will snoop the at channel traffic, sort out the htc proprietary gunk, and get on with their lives.  for future projects we hope we can get a fully open source ril.
Dec 24 02:37:19 * mwester notes that much of the calypso has been reverse engineered in a similar fashion.
Dec 24 02:37:49 <swetland> I think it's stupid that somebody will have to do this, but there's only so much braindamage I can prevent per product cycle, unfortunately
Dec 24 02:38:36 <raster> swetland: yeah. i'd say that gps anr radio (gsm) should really not have any reason to be closed
Dec 24 02:38:38 <swetland> we're working very hard to reduce the proprietary userspace bits for the standard platform on msm7k to 1 (I don't think we'll ever get AMD/ATI to open source the GL library)
Dec 24 02:38:52 <swetland> the gps thing is really really dumb. we're getting it fixed.
Dec 24 02:38:53 <EddieOfTheRocks> So, what is the structure regarding SHR vs these 2008.x builds? What's the future? Which one sees the most active development?
Dec 24 02:38:56 <raster> for 3g/gsm 99% of the crap is on the gsm module subsystem anyway on a separate cpu with its own os/firmware
Dec 24 02:39:06 <raster> all they are doing is hiding how to talk to it in detail
Dec 24 02:39:08 <swetland> raster: yes, exactly
Dec 24 02:39:15 <raster> not the commands themselves really
Dec 24 02:39:19 <raster> as the at commands are documented
Dec 24 02:39:31 <raster> just the transport layer - and hiding that is just stupid
Dec 24 02:39:34 <swetland> well vendors do add their own extensions, but the core stuff is a spec
Dec 24 02:39:34 <raster> gps is similr
Dec 24 02:39:40 <swetland> the transport actually is not hidden
Dec 24 02:39:43 <swetland> it's a tty devices
Dec 24 02:40:01 <swetland> s/devices/device/
Dec 24 02:40:01 <apt> swetland meant: it's a tty device
Dec 24 02:40:04 <raster> well yeah - but how those devices are xposes (ie between device and hw registeros/interrupts/io)
Dec 24 02:40:13 <swetland> that's all open source
Dec 24 02:40:14 <raster> are exposed
Dec 24 02:40:25 <raster> oh that is open?
Dec 24 02:40:29 <swetland> the whole shared memory signaling / driver / etc is open
Dec 24 02:40:38 <swetland> been out in the public eye for almost a year prior to ship
Dec 24 02:40:47 <raster> so as such talking at commands will work just fine
Dec 24 02:40:53 <mjr> does sound better than I expected, on the whole...
Dec 24 02:41:03 <swetland> the only closed bit is this little library that adapts from "initiate a call" to whatever at chatter the modem likes
Dec 24 02:41:25 <raster> ooh
Dec 24 02:41:29 <swetland> htc tweaks the modem firmware a bit and that a bit
Dec 24 02:41:38 <raster> so basically what fso is doing with frameworkd  etc. anyway
Dec 24 02:41:52 <swetland> but I doubt anybody will have much trouble figuring out how to make the radio happy from the apps side
Dec 24 02:42:15 * SpeedEvil sighs at the trend to integrate GSM/3G on the core CPU
Dec 24 02:42:21 <swetland> honestly, it'd be better if it were just open source, but they consider it part of their "secret sauce" as it were
Dec 24 02:42:30 <raster> SpeedEvil:  cost cutting
Dec 24 02:42:31 <raster> :)
Dec 24 02:42:33 <swetland> speedevil: people want reduced footprint and cost
Dec 24 02:42:42 <swetland> and sometimes better power management
Dec 24 02:42:42 <SpeedEvil> Oh - I understand why it's done.
Dec 24 02:42:42 <raster> swetland: pffft
Dec 24 02:42:58 <SpeedEvil> I'm just bemoaning that it makes hacking harder.
Dec 24 02:43:10 <raster> swetland: the only thng thats sizable and closed there is the 3d - thats non-trivial
Dec 24 02:43:18 <raster> but even then its a shame to have a trend to closed there
Dec 24 02:43:23 <swetland> raster: look at the FR board vs the G1 board. it's frickin' enormous.  I should take some pictures. this stuff is crazy crazy tiny, footprint-wise.
Dec 24 02:43:31 <swetland> raster: well, we're working on reversing that
Dec 24 02:43:39 <raster> :)
Dec 24 02:43:52 <swetland> raster: the initial proposals made by qualcomm involved *most* of the drivers being closed userspace modules
Dec 24 02:43:55 <swetland> etc etc
Dec 24 02:44:02 <raster> god
Dec 24 02:44:10 <Tm_T> swetland: reason?
Dec 24 02:44:13 <mjr> swetland, it's nice to hear you say that, 'cause the openhandsetalliance pages really seemed to focus on how everyone can keep everything closed
Dec 24 02:44:18 <raster> Tm_T: it's qualcomm
Dec 24 02:44:21 <swetland> nervous about the gpl
Dec 24 02:44:21 <raster> thats how they do it
Dec 24 02:44:28 <raster> they have always done it that way
Dec 24 02:44:31 <Tm_T> swetland: why?
Dec 24 02:44:39 <swetland> you'd have to ask their legal dept
Dec 24 02:44:43 <SpeedEvil> I hope that stuff gets more open over time.
Dec 24 02:44:44 <Tm_T> raster: ah, I know that, more like to hear why
Dec 24 02:44:49 <Tm_T> swetland: interesting
Dec 24 02:44:51 <swetland> I've wasted enough of my life arguing with 'em.  It's not fun.
Dec 24 02:44:57 <SpeedEvil> I think practically the best we can hope for is a slow easing of more toes into the water.
Dec 24 02:45:04 <Tm_T> swetland: send them over
Dec 24 02:45:11 <swetland> I think we're moving in the right direction.
Dec 24 02:45:18 <swetland> it just takes longer than I'd like
Dec 24 02:45:39 <SpeedEvil> Well - I suppose the best would be Google phone taking off massively, and others using the OS, and the phone market going commodity hardware, at which point closed is bad.
Dec 24 02:45:42 <SpeedEvil> But...
Dec 24 02:45:49 <SpeedEvil> s/google/openmoko/
Dec 24 02:46:17 <swetland> the goal, design and license-wise is to allow oems/carriers to bundle proprietary bits (if they want/need), but ensure that the entire core platform is open and push extremely hard for open drivers, etc, etc)
Dec 24 02:46:37 <swetland> it's a *huge* market.  I don't think we're going to see any one entity "win" and dominate
Dec 24 02:46:56 <SpeedEvil> It could happen. 
Dec 24 02:47:06 <swetland> everyone (oems, carriers, consumers, etc) has seen the pc market in the 80s, 90s, and how things panned out with microsoft
Dec 24 02:47:08 <SpeedEvil> But is probably unlikely.
Dec 24 02:47:15 <swetland> and is very nervous about affording anyone that level of control again
Dec 24 02:47:21 <raster> yup
Dec 24 02:47:22 <raster> agreed
Dec 24 02:47:37 <SpeedEvil> I was meaning that if 'microsoft' turned out to be a sane open linux-based OS in this case.
Dec 24 02:47:39 <raster> i think linux as a core os tool is going to take the makor share 50-60%
Dec 24 02:47:45 <SpeedEvil> That would blunt some of the concerns.
Dec 24 02:47:47 <raster> whats on top of linux is what will differ
Dec 24 02:47:57 <raster> android vs x11+ normal toolkits vs qte.
Dec 24 02:48:06 <swetland> I think if the whole android project were not open source it would have basically died at launch. nobody wants another proprietary winner-takes-all OS (well, except maybe for people building those OSes...)
Dec 24 02:48:06 <SpeedEvil> And also make some of the concerns irrelevant - as it _vastly_ lowers the barrier of entry into the market.
Dec 24 02:48:08 <raster> ms will probably take 20-30%
Dec 24 02:48:15 <raster> symbian 20 or so
Dec 24 02:48:21 <raster> and others bizarre os's make up the rest
Dec 24 02:48:48 <SpeedEvil> If you don't have to write a software stack, buy a software stack, or train users on your new software, phones get _much_ cheaper and easier to make for small vendors.
Dec 24 02:49:02 <swetland> raster: I think maybe 50+% of the handset market will remain funky embedded stuff for a while, just because the 0-cost devices are still often arm7, or really low end arm9, virtually no memory, etc
Dec 24 02:49:13 <SpeedEvil> swetland: it's changing.
Dec 24 02:49:18 <swetland> it is
Dec 24 02:49:20 <raster> swetland:  i'm talking 5-10 years from now
Dec 24 02:49:22 <SpeedEvil> swetland: though it's gonna be another decade.
Dec 24 02:49:29 <raster> swetland:  and talking "smartphones"
Dec 24 02:49:40 <swetland> smartphones, definitely
Dec 24 02:49:49 <raster> ie ones that can run real processes
Dec 24 02:49:51 <swetland> reinventing the whole os is not worth it any more
Dec 24 02:49:56 <raster> (not just the "lets make the whole phone 1 single process/app/os blob that does everything"
Dec 24 02:49:57 <SpeedEvil> At the moment, I can get a 32 bit processor with mmu, integrated ROM and RAM that's capable of running linux apart from the size of that ROM and RAM
Dec 24 02:50:02 <SpeedEvil> for $7
Dec 24 02:50:17 <swetland> back in 2000 at danger we did a tiny custom OS because we had 24MHz arm7, 4mb flash, 8 (later 16) mb ram
Dec 24 02:50:17 <SpeedEvil> (512K/50K)
Dec 24 02:50:19 <SpeedEvil> (512K/40K)
Dec 24 02:50:25 <SpeedEvil> (in quantity one)
Dec 24 02:50:38 <swetland> these days you can get a MMU (luxury!) and everything ^^
Dec 24 02:50:54 <swetland> and linux was a no-brainer for the kernel choice
Dec 24 02:50:58 * raster awaits his omap3530
Dec 24 02:51:30 <SpeedEvil> Come on a few years, make multi-chips cheaper, add some ROM and RAM to that, and I can see a basic linux 200MHz system coming in under $10 for a 300MHz 10*10mm package with 128M RAM, and 1G flash.
Dec 24 02:51:48 <SpeedEvil> in ones, and maybe $3 at 100000 units
Dec 24 02:52:03 <SpeedEvil> Perhaps 6-10 years.
Dec 24 02:52:28 <swetland> not at that pricepoint today, but you can get that or better *and* the modem, gpu, dsps, etc all on one die
Dec 24 02:52:35 <swetland> in a decade it'll be nuts
Dec 24 02:52:41 <daMaestro> so i found that the messaging app only crashes when adding multiple recipients if there is a recipient selected when you go to add another
Dec 24 02:52:45 <SpeedEvil> Oh yes. I'm talking of the bottom end of the market.
Dec 24 02:52:50 <swetland> yah
Dec 24 02:53:05 <daMaestro> if you clear the original addition from being selected, the app works as expected
Dec 24 02:53:22 <SpeedEvil> bottom end of the linux capable market in 6-10 years that is.
Dec 24 02:53:47 <swetland> totally agree that once that's the baseline there's no reason to consider a "toy" kernel/system
Dec 24 02:54:23 <swetland> mind you, hacking on little 40KB embedded systems is fun, but that can move to the sub-dollar market ^^
Dec 24 02:54:46 * SpeedEvil is currently coding on a MCU with 256 words of ROM :)
Dec 24 02:54:53 <SpeedEvil> It's somewhat different.
Dec 24 02:55:05 <raster> in 10 years the baseline will be more like 500-1ghz with at least 2 cores
Dec 24 02:55:08 <SpeedEvil> But they are $.3 or so in ones.
Dec 24 02:55:12 <raster> i suspect
Dec 24 02:55:18 <raster> 128m being a minimum config
Dec 24 02:55:19 <SpeedEvil> raster: for the $15 or $20 market, yes.
Dec 24 02:55:28 <raster> probably lower i suspect
Dec 24 02:55:37 <swetland> I'm really liking that atmel, philips, etc are doing $1-5 microcontrollers around ARM7 these days
Dec 24 02:55:42 <SpeedEvil> swetland: yeah
Dec 24 02:55:48 <swetland> there are some really fun little devices out there
Dec 24 02:56:35 <swetland> and they're going with in-circuit programmable, no need for jtag, no need for expensive custom tools and crap. it's very nice
Dec 24 02:56:36 <SpeedEvil> I'm contemplating software radio on some of the STM32 family.
Dec 24 02:56:47 <SpeedEvil> swetland: RS232 compatible in-ROM bootloader!
Dec 24 02:56:52 <SpeedEvil> swetland: how cool is that!
Dec 24 02:56:54 <swetland> or USB
Dec 24 02:57:24 <swetland> that's one of the things I love about OMAP
Dec 24 02:57:37 <swetland> TI got it *really* right with the on-rom USBloader
Dec 24 02:58:02 <SpeedEvil> As long as I can lock it out or authenticate it in a shipping product.
Dec 24 02:58:26 <swetland> most vendors sell two versions (general/secure) or fuseable
Dec 24 02:59:18 <swetland> secure gets you a unqiue ID on die, your public key on die, etc
Dec 24 02:59:24 <SpeedEvil> I can see both sides.
Dec 24 02:59:29 <raster> r
Dec 24 02:59:31 <SpeedEvil> A) I want to hack devices that I buy.
Dec 24 02:59:41 <SpeedEvil> B) I want to make secure and hard to reuse devices that I sell.
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Wed Dec 24 02:59:57 2008