**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Fri Jan 09 02:59:57 2009
Jan 09 03:07:16 <uhsf> 3 minutes to copy a 50MB file via usb. i'm not used to that much slow.
Jan 09 03:19:53 <uhsf> that new palm pre linux phone sure looks sleek
Jan 09 03:21:37 <Slaxxer> im confused about that
Jan 09 03:21:42 <Slaxxer>  is it linux?
Jan 09 03:24:04 <uhsf> it is. it's very unexpected coming from palm.
Jan 09 03:32:00 * rooly sighs
Jan 09 03:32:05 <rooly> mother fsking damnit
Jan 09 03:32:34 <rooly> i mean, seriously
Jan 09 03:32:36 <rooly> why did i do it
Jan 09 03:32:42 <rooly> i knew something bad would happen
Jan 09 03:32:46 <rooly> i KNEW it
Jan 09 03:35:51 <rooly> and nobody even cares to find out what not to do
Jan 09 03:35:56 <rwhitby> uhsf: the palm pre has me looking closely form factor wise.  wonder how open the linux webOS is ...
Jan 09 03:36:16 <rwhitby> (i.e. can you run openmoko on it)
Jan 09 03:38:28 <rooly> i guess not then
Jan 09 03:39:37 <Slaxxer> why rooly why?
Jan 09 03:39:52 <rooly> thank you
Jan 09 03:39:59 <Slaxxer> did u bork 4.3.3
Jan 09 03:40:03 <Dave> rooly!
Jan 09 03:40:03 <rooly> i installed the binary update for qtopia from 4.3.2 to 4.3.3
Jan 09 03:40:09 <rooly> and everything works perfectly
Jan 09 03:40:11 <Slaxxer> just let it go
Jan 09 03:40:14 <rooly> except i can't dial...
Jan 09 03:40:24 <Dave> how's it going, man?
Jan 09 03:40:26 <rooly> i can receive just fine
Jan 09 03:40:29 <rooly> great, dave
Jan 09 03:40:33 <rooly> except i can't dial
Jan 09 03:41:06 <Dave> Oh, shitty
Jan 09 03:41:10 <rooly> you bet
Jan 09 03:41:26 <cb22> this isn't really an openmoko question, but if I add a printk to fb_mmap() in drivers/video/fbmem.c, something should get printed each time a program tries to mmap the framebuffer, correct?
Jan 09 03:41:40 <uhsf> rwhitby: i was never interested in phones in general. i bought the freerunner because i needed a phone and it happened to be the only linux phone at the time.
Jan 09 03:41:55 <rooly> i'm going to attempt to upgrade my phone's packages first
Jan 09 03:42:06 <rooly> then if i can't dial, i'll see if 4.4.2 is working worth a damn
Jan 09 03:42:17 <Slaxxer> ooo noos
Jan 09 03:42:22 <rooly> if it does, i'll have working internet and dialer and a web browser
Jan 09 03:42:27 <uhsf> rwhitby: i just stumbled on the palm pre news and i admit i'm incredibly surprised
Jan 09 03:42:33 <rooly> if it doesn't, i'll just reflash 4.3.2
Jan 09 03:43:08 <Slaxxer> what about 4.4.3
Jan 09 03:43:22 <rooly> not released yet as an image or update
Jan 09 03:43:50 <rooly> but if somebody feels like building a copy for me, i'll happily try it out before reflashing
Jan 09 03:44:18 <Slaxxer> i wish i knew how
Jan 09 03:44:34 <uhsf> the form factor, the keyboard, the os, unlocked gsm, they even managed to offer a wireless charger that is just unbelievable, i don't wanna troll you know but it is very likely that i'm getting one when it comes out in 2009.
Jan 09 03:44:52 <rooly> tell us if its any good, uhsf
Jan 09 03:45:17 * rooly sighs
Jan 09 03:45:29 <Slaxxer> it is very nive but it being a palm   if it hits the floor its proly dune for
Jan 09 03:45:30 <rooly> i can so easily pound thru 5 gigs in a month
Jan 09 03:46:18 <rwhitby> Slaxxer: my t650 hits the floor regularly, and keeps going for the last 5 years.
Jan 09 03:46:26 <Slaxxer> send dave one so he can test it:)
Jan 09 03:46:32 <uhsf> the palm pre linux phone just beats the freerunner in everyway possible and sets new standards for linux devices in 2009. as simple as this.
Jan 09 03:46:52 <rwhitby> uh, oh - he mentioned palm and freerunner in same sentence ...
Jan 09 03:47:02 <Slaxxer> gives om something to look at
Jan 09 03:47:32 <Slaxxer> recon he will get kicked?
Jan 09 03:48:08 <Dave> poor rooly
Jan 09 03:48:35 <rooly> yeah
Jan 09 03:48:37 <Slaxxer> my daughter  has 650  gsm failed after hitting the floor
Jan 09 03:48:40 <rooly> i was so happy with it too
Jan 09 03:48:54 <Slaxxer> or 3g whatever it is
Jan 09 03:49:10 * rooly sighs
Jan 09 03:49:15 <rooly> its still damned dialup...
Jan 09 03:49:22 <Dave> yup!
Jan 09 03:49:24 <rooly> why can't people understand that?
Jan 09 03:49:41 <rooly> at least the latency is better than satelite
Jan 09 03:51:31 <Dave> but still :\
Jan 09 03:51:55 <rooly> you know what i want to do
Jan 09 03:52:01 <rooly> meet someone else with an FR
Jan 09 03:55:49 <Slaxxer> an start the first free peer to peer network   yay
Jan 09 03:56:12 <Slaxxer> Divercity
Jan 09 03:56:28 <rooly> lol
Jan 09 03:56:32 * Dave shudders
Jan 09 03:56:40 <Dave> FREERUNNER LAN PARTY?
Jan 09 03:56:45 <rooly> lmao
Jan 09 03:56:50 <rooly> wtf would you DO with that
Jan 09 03:56:59 <rooly> forward a bunch of linux x servers running wow?
Jan 09 03:58:47 <Slaxxer> need neighbors with freerunners
Jan 09 04:01:46 <rooly> shit
Jan 09 04:01:55 <rooly> there are only 10,000 units in the wild
Jan 09 04:02:04 <rooly> what are the chances i'll run into someone with one of them
Jan 09 04:02:35 <uhsf> i want to meet someone with a palm pre
Jan 09 04:09:44 <Slaxxer> may include 1973s
Jan 09 04:11:00 <Slaxxer> use the force rooly
Jan 09 04:13:08 <Slaxxer> download the new youk maps an go track down dave
Jan 09 04:13:20 <Slaxxer> i can see it now
Jan 09 04:14:14 <Slaxxer> Dave with his location spoffed to just across the highway in a macdonalds drive up
Jan 09 04:14:54 <Slaxxer> peeking out the curtain   watching for roolys jetta
Jan 09 04:17:33 <Dave> What the fuck!?
Jan 09 04:20:17 * mwester washes Dave's mouth out with a bar of soap.
Jan 09 04:42:03 <Dave> :[
Jan 09 04:42:47 <Slaxxer> yuk
Jan 09 04:44:32 <Slaxxer> http://tech.yahoo.com/news/pcworld/20090107/tc_pcworld/nineinchnailsthefirstopensourceband
Jan 09 04:44:59 <Slaxxer> this thin could really change the world!!
Jan 09 04:45:20 <Slaxxer> g
Jan 09 04:46:09 <Slaxxer> cutting out all the rich fat   fatherless boys
Jan 09 05:02:45 <uhsf> "dfu-util -a u-boot -R -D qi-s3c2442-master_a2d11c4dd18c9517.udfu" doesn't work on the freerunner. does this command has to be done on the pc?
Jan 09 05:03:36 <uhsf> i try to install qi but dfu-util is not installed on the freerunner
Jan 09 05:03:46 <mmontour> on the pc, and the Freerunner has to be at the u-boot menu
Jan 09 05:04:23 <Slaxxer> in the nor -correct?
Jan 09 05:04:55 <uhsf> the u-boot menu is accessed by holding aux before boot?
Jan 09 05:05:00 <Slaxxer> shr is coming to release :)
Jan 09 05:05:08 <uhsf> when?
Jan 09 05:05:29 <Slaxxer> http://planet.openmoko.org/
Jan 09 05:05:46 <uhsf> i'm almost finished with the install that's a little sad
Jan 09 05:06:02 <Slaxxer> boot into nor by aux+power
Jan 09 05:06:20 <Slaxxer> it will be ok
Jan 09 05:07:00 <Slaxxer> not sad at all
Jan 09 05:07:30 <uhsf> i'll install again when it's released
Jan 09 05:08:00 <uhsf> i did a little error so it'll be better next time
Jan 09 05:08:37 <uhsf> i still haven't set the mount points for my partitions. how to do this?
Jan 09 05:08:57 <uhsf> i have a /, swap and /home.
Jan 09 05:09:51 <uhsf> do i have to edit /etc/fstab manually?
Jan 09 05:16:29 <uhsf> No DFU capable USB device found
Jan 09 05:17:03 <mmontour> try running the dfu-util command a second time
Jan 09 05:18:47 <uhsf> i tried with sudo and it worked
Jan 09 05:23:49 <uhsf> it wasn't a success. probably i just need to configure qi to boot from sd card but it'll wait 'til tomorrow i'm too tired. gn.
Jan 09 05:25:13 <Slaxxer> later
Jan 09 05:44:41 <Slaxxer> boing boing boing
Jan 09 05:46:02 <Dave> yep
Jan 09 05:52:50 <Slaxxer> its the doc
Jan 09 05:53:37 <Slaxxer> oooo nooos its the web flu
Jan 09 05:53:46 <Dave> yeah :|
Jan 09 05:53:53 <Dave> he's getting over it though, fortunately :)
Jan 09 06:40:55 <Digital_Pioneer> Ahhh, crap. My dialer, contacts, and SMS apps have screwed up.
Jan 09 06:41:32 <Digital_Pioneer> The dialer only works when run from SSH. The contacts and messages apps both segfault from GUI and SSH.
Jan 09 06:51:09 <Digital_Pioneer> OK, rebooted, and ophonekitd didn't start.
Jan 09 06:51:51 <Digital_Pioneer> I started it manually, and after it got initialized, the dialer, messages (SMS) apps work from SSH ONLY, and contacts works correctly.
Jan 09 06:53:29 <Digital_Pioneer> Crap, NVM. All three work from SSH only.
Jan 09 06:54:21 <Digital_Pioneer> I upgraded my Enlightenment to the one Trevino compiled and put on the community ML. Now this is happenning, but only with those three apps, as far as I can tell.
Jan 09 06:55:57 <Digital_Pioneer> Nope, alarm is affected too.
Jan 09 06:56:00 <Digital_Pioneer> Curse it.
Jan 09 06:58:23 <Digital_Pioneer> Appears to just be those 4.
Jan 09 07:06:18 <synan> morning
Jan 09 07:34:20 <lindi-> Digital_Pioneer: segfault? you are lucky, segfaults should be easy to fix
Jan 09 07:43:32 <raster> lindi-: u'd be surprised how hard segv;'s can be to fix :)
Jan 09 07:46:30 <lindi-> only if it's c++ :)
Jan 09 07:46:43 <raster> even in c
Jan 09 07:46:55 <raster> somethnig scribbles over the wrong bit of ram
Jan 09 07:46:59 <raster> but some time LATEr thigns die
Jan 09 07:47:27 <raster> (eg some code scribbles over the wrong datastruct setting pointersin it to garbage and some time later u access them and wonder wy its garbage)
Jan 09 07:53:31 <elserpiente> +
Jan 09 07:54:15 <gopi> Purify is a nice tool for that.
Jan 09 08:02:55 <gecco> good morning
Jan 09 08:03:57 <synan> morning
Jan 09 08:04:30 <lindi-> raster: ok, if it's not reproducible then that can be difficult
Jan 09 08:05:08 <raster> lindi-: if it is reproducable it can also be very trickly
Jan 09 08:05:12 <raster> it depends ont he kind of bug
Jan 09 08:05:27 <raster> a simple NULL dereference is easy to fix
Jan 09 08:05:31 <lindi-> raster: yep
Jan 09 08:05:41 <raster> but thats roughly where it stops being easy
Jan 09 08:05:41 <raster> :)
Jan 09 08:05:48 <lindi-> raster: but with corrupted pointers you can set watchpoint and rerun to see what wrote it
Jan 09 08:05:58 <raster> not so easy
Jan 09 08:06:04 <raster> if your code is very dynamic
Jan 09 08:06:05 <lindi-> (assuming the addresses are the same on each run)
Jan 09 08:06:09 <lindi-> then you lose :)
Jan 09 08:06:16 <raster> and the thing to watch gets created at some point then used later
Jan 09 08:06:26 <raster> and that point may be a few ms before things segv
Jan 09 08:06:29 <raster> or it could be4 at the start
Jan 09 08:06:31 <raster> who knows
Jan 09 08:06:31 <lindi-> if it is non-deterministic then it's very challenging indeed
Jan 09 08:06:51 <lindi-> logging contents of memory after each instruction would be useful
Jan 09 08:06:53 <raster> i've had my fair share of dooseys to fix
Jan 09 08:07:01 <raster> valgrind helps muchly
Jan 09 08:07:13 <raster> watchpoints in gdb i have found are useless as gdb becoems so slow
Jan 09 08:07:14 <lindi-> doesn't support ARM though?
Jan 09 08:07:22 <raster> it mayaswell be running on a z80
Jan 09 08:07:29 <raster> oh dont bother on arm
Jan 09 08:07:32 <raster> i always hunt them on x86
Jan 09 08:07:37 <raster> easier to do the debugging
Jan 09 08:07:40 <lindi-> oh, hardware watchpoints should be fast
Jan 09 08:07:40 <raster> more tools
Jan 09 08:07:48 <raster> aaah but they arent
Jan 09 08:07:52 <raster> as they arent done with hw
Jan 09 08:07:56 <raster> gdb does itin software
Jan 09 08:08:00 <raster> thus... SLOOOOOOOOOOOOOOW
Jan 09 08:10:08 <Hopscotch> good morning
Jan 09 08:14:10 <Dave> :)
Jan 09 08:19:30 <beni> someone has dosbox running?
Jan 09 08:21:16 <amarsh04> not on openmoko, beni... I've been running it on my desktop pc
Jan 09 09:02:39 <lindi-> raster: gdb supports hardware watchpoints afaik
Jan 09 09:08:13 <raster> lindi-:  in theory - but it doesnt use them on x86 at least
Jan 09 09:22:45 <soul9> hi!
Jan 09 09:23:04 <soul9> i'm about to order a freerunner...i was wondering about some stuff...
Jan 09 09:23:21 <soul9> e.g. wether skype works (not that i like skype at all :-)
Jan 09 09:23:39 <soul9> and flash (again, nott hat i really like flash at all)
Jan 09 09:25:05 <soul9> ok, found the answer to the flash question
Jan 09 09:27:20 <soul9> found the answer for skype too, if it's not outdated
Jan 09 09:27:33 <soul9> i wonder, the maemo is based on ARM too, no?
Jan 09 09:28:42 <dent> soul9: yes, those nokia N800 et al. are ARMs
Jan 09 09:28:48 <soul9> yeah
Jan 09 09:29:10 <soul9> so skype from that should work on moko too no? or is there an architectural difference that makes it not possible?
Jan 09 09:29:14 <dent> as for the FR: forget bout flash and forget bout skype, there are more fundamental issues to still be solved, IMHO
Jan 09 09:29:15 <sakkara> skype would be nice to work...
Jan 09 09:29:27 <dent> there is quite some difference
Jan 09 09:29:38 <dent> I don't know exactly- use google, btu it's different ARM
Jan 09 09:29:43 <sakkara> soul9: skype only works for i386 linux not arm...
Jan 09 09:30:25 <dent> sakkara: http://www.skype.com/download/skype/nokia/
Jan 09 09:30:40 <dent> they do have binaries for those N800ish notkia things
Jan 09 09:30:48 <soul9> sakkara: maemo is ARM based too
Jan 09 09:30:55 <soul9> not sure wether it's the same arch...
Jan 09 09:31:16 <soul9> it'd be worth it to try tho..
Jan 09 09:31:21 <sakkara> hm
Jan 09 09:31:24 <soul9> i'm surprised noone did..
Jan 09 09:31:25 <sakkara> ill give it try
Jan 09 09:31:28 <soul9> :-)
Jan 09 09:31:30 <soul9> cool
Jan 09 09:32:55 <soul9> well, please update the wiki if you make it...
Jan 09 09:33:38 <soul9> hehe, i see why there is no public info about it
Jan 09 09:33:46 <soul9> license problems, it seems
Jan 09 09:33:48 <sakkara> ./skype.install: line 1: [install]: not found
Jan 09 09:33:52 <sakkara> ./skype.install: line 2: catalogues: not found
Jan 09 09:33:53 <sakkara> ./skype.install: line 3: package: not found
Jan 09 09:33:53 <sakkara> ./skype.install: line 5: [nokia-certified]: not found
Jan 09 09:33:53 <sakkara> ./skype.install: line 6: name: not found
Jan 09 09:33:53 <sakkara> ./skype.install: line 7: uri: not found
Jan 09 09:33:53 <sakkara> ./skype.install: line 8: components: not found
Jan 09 09:33:59 <soul9> heh
Jan 09 09:34:06 <sakkara> i was pretty sure it wont work...
Jan 09 09:34:19 <soul9> darn
Jan 09 09:34:27 <soul9> well, i'll dive into it when i get my freerunner
Jan 09 09:34:35 <sakkara> yeah
Jan 09 09:34:52 <soul9> enyone know anyhting about the pulster shop? anyone purchase from them?
Jan 09 09:34:53 <sakkara> the problem is skype is completely closed...
Jan 09 09:34:58 <soul9> yeah, i know
Jan 09 09:35:09 <sakkara> yes, purchased from pulster
Jan 09 09:35:10 <dent> soul9: I have, well, actualyl we were a group, so we have
Jan 09 09:35:13 <soul9> i don't really like it, but no choice yet...jingle is getting accepted soon tho
Jan 09 09:35:21 <soul9> ok, cool
Jan 09 09:35:23 <soul9> sweet
Jan 09 09:35:42 <sakkara> in august, took quite a while
Jan 09 09:35:44 <soul9> thanks guys, see ya around
Jan 09 09:35:48 <soul9> did?
Jan 09 09:35:53 <soul9> guess they were out?
Jan 09 09:36:01 <sakkara> yeah
Jan 09 09:36:01 <soul9> sold out*
Jan 09 09:36:03 <soul9> ok
Jan 09 09:36:09 <soul9> yeah, they have it in stok now
Jan 09 09:36:11 <sakkara> had to wait for september 15 ship
Jan 09 09:36:14 <lindi-> raster: really?
Jan 09 09:36:14 <soul9> stock*
Jan 09 09:36:23 <soul9> ugh, that sucks
Jan 09 09:36:30 <lindi-> sakkara: keep skype far away from freerunner :)
Jan 09 09:36:42 <sakkara> lindi-: :-D
Jan 09 09:36:54 <soul9> hehehe
Jan 09 09:37:10 <soul9> dent: err, what big issues are there?
Jan 09 09:37:12 <soul9> :-)
Jan 09 09:37:22 <sakkara> it would just be nice to reverse engineer the im, to make a different im client
Jan 09 09:37:41 <lindi-> raster: I wrote the part about debug registers on x86 in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debug_register by reading GDB source code, there's a even a reference to the actual file
Jan 09 09:37:53 <soul9> reverse-engineer the protocol so one could make a client....then again, they'd prolly change the protocol
Jan 09 09:38:32 * soul9 waits impatiently for wider jingle adoption..
Jan 09 09:38:44 <raster> lindi-: i was doign watchpoints a few weeks back
Jan 09 09:38:50 <raster> set a watchpoint ona an address
Jan 09 09:38:54 <raster> and the app crawled
Jan 09 09:39:01 <lindi-> raster: odd
Jan 09 09:39:08 <raster> it took like an hour to just get the first window up
Jan 09 09:39:12 <raster> letalone ther rest of the init/code
Jan 09 09:39:16 <raster> i gave up
Jan 09 09:39:21 <raster> found other ways to hunt it down
Jan 09 09:39:22 <raster> :)
Jan 09 09:40:01 <Daramara`> soul9: looking at the tickets in the Trac for om and fso gives you a clue how the status is for the openmoko
Jan 09 09:40:21 <lindi-> raster: but it definitely has code for hardware watchpoints
Jan 09 09:40:26 <soul9> fso?
Jan 09 09:40:44 <raster> lindi-: found them to... be non-functional :(
Jan 09 09:40:48 <Daramara`> It is the new middleware for the openmoko
Jan 09 09:40:56 <soul9> heh
Jan 09 09:41:03 * soul9 not sure what middleware does
Jan 09 09:41:42 <gambler> raster, you guys doing anything with android, or is OM strictly a hw company now? 
Jan 09 09:41:50 <Daramara`> Still the tickets will show you what works and what doesn't, but keep in mind that some of the issues only affect a few.
Jan 09 09:41:59 <soul9> ok
Jan 09 09:41:59 <soul9> yeah
Jan 09 09:42:27 <gambler> raster, btw im organising an open phone / mobile interent device bar camp in brisbane on 28th january if your keen.
Jan 09 09:42:39 <gambler> (or anyone else here)
Jan 09 09:45:30 <lindi-> raster: at least simple busyloop seems to be equally fast with and without watchpoints on my x86
Jan 09 09:45:40 <lindi-> raster: where's your bug report?
Jan 09 09:47:14 <raster> gambler:  i dont work for om
Jan 09 09:47:51 <raster> lindi-:  for gdb? didnt file. i was busy dealing with my own bugs!
Jan 09 09:47:53 <raster> :)
Jan 09 09:48:01 <lindi-> raster: excuses :)
Jan 09 09:49:01 <gambler> raster, oh...when did that happen
Jan 09 09:49:35 <raster> lindi-: i didnt know it was MEANT to work
Jan 09 09:50:01 <raster> the manual said "it has support for some platforms - if it doesnt , then it does software stepping instead"
Jan 09 09:50:17 <raster> so i just assumed it didnt have the support
Jan 09 09:50:17 <lindi-> raster: you didn't read the source ;)
Jan 09 09:50:17 <raster> gambler:  august
Jan 09 09:50:23 <raster> lindi-:  no... i was busy reading my own!
Jan 09 09:50:24 <raster> :)
Jan 09 09:52:50 <gambler> raster, http://barcamp.org/BrisbaneMobility2009-1 btw
Jan 09 09:53:48 <raster> gambler: thouhg i'd like to come... i am at lca just before - right now i may be goign to korea just after lca
Jan 09 09:54:21 <gambler> ok keep it in mind if you dont go to korea.
Jan 09 09:55:11 <raster> as for android - i am not a big fan of it
Jan 09 09:55:51 <raster> mostly because it diverges so far from linux
Jan 09 09:56:00 <raster> hasnt played the "lets work with the community" game
Jan 09 09:56:15 <raster> did their own langauge, own dev system, own libx, own display system etc.
Jan 09 09:56:39 <raster> whihc means to work with android i need to throw out al the languages i know and libs i use and "smoke the android pipe"
Jan 09 09:56:45 <raster> and that.. i am not willing to do
Jan 09 09:57:06 <raster> i have to keep enough context in my head without adding another complete os to it
Jan 09 09:58:20 <raster> :(
Jan 09 10:00:29 <raster> (probably doesnt make me popular to not be an android fanboy - but its my take on it)
Jan 09 10:02:45 <zash__> raster: OHYEAH
Jan 09 10:03:19 * zash__ agrees with raster
Jan 09 10:04:51 <raster> if android did a "standard linux"
Jan 09 10:05:03 <raster> (kernel+userspace+x)
Jan 09 10:05:12 <raster> and had standrad tookits with c api access
Jan 09 10:05:22 <raster> i'd be inclined to be poking around with it
Jan 09 10:07:01 <XorA> people seemed to like Freerunner Android at local LUG last night
Jan 09 10:07:12 * mjr is of the same opinion, but well, if android will catalyse creation of linux-supported hardware (some of which not locked, and some of which with free drivers at least for basic functionality), it's okay one supposes
Jan 09 10:07:33 <zash__> "According to [Palm], anyone who knows CSS, HTML and XML will be able to develop for [webOS/Palm Pre] without having to learn any new languages"
Jan 09 10:07:36 <zash__> lawl
Jan 09 10:08:02 <mjr> though I wouldn't like it if it crowded out more traditional gnu/linux approaches - though that's really partly a community matter
Jan 09 10:08:20 <raster> zash__:  "and anyone who knows c and c++ will be fucked as they now are forced to become web monkeys" :)
Jan 09 10:08:45 <sakkara> lol raster^^
Jan 09 10:09:21 <XorA> we can implement c-script in java script :-)
Jan 09 10:09:32 <raster> now thats just plain offensive
Jan 09 10:09:34 <raster> :)
Jan 09 10:09:39 <CVirus> disgusting
Jan 09 10:10:23 <ernst> Hello 
Jan 09 10:10:34 <ernst> where can i find ewww ?
Jan 09 10:10:55 <CVirus> what is it ?
Jan 09 10:11:36 <raster> efl web browser
Jan 09 10:11:47 <raster> very small minimal one using webkit-efl
Jan 09 10:11:51 <raster> cant rememebr
Jan 09 10:11:52 <raster> google for it
Jan 09 10:11:53 <raster> :)
Jan 09 10:11:56 <raster> (where it is)
Jan 09 10:17:07 <evolux> hey guys, i'm suddenly having problems booting FSO
Jan 09 10:17:22 <evolux> before starting X it complains about missing files in /dev
Jan 09 10:18:03 <evolux> other files obviously exist on the root partition (for example /sbin/sulogin and /sbin/getty)
Jan 09 10:18:50 <dario> hello everyone, does someone know how to sync the hw clock to the sw time on SHR?
Jan 09 10:19:23 <evolux> the errors are like "can't open /dev/1" and "can't log to '/dev/tty5'" other files that are missing are /dev/S, /dev/1, /dev/z6
Jan 09 10:19:27 <evolux> any idea?
Jan 09 10:21:40 <evolux> does FSO use devfs or any other fancy stuff?
Jan 09 10:21:56 <evolux> i dumped my rootfs and checked, /dev/tty5 is there
Jan 09 10:22:03 <sleipnir> ernst: there is a post on planet IIRC http://downloads.tuxfamily.org/3v1deb/openmoko/ewww-libeWebKit%2bgit20090109.tar.bz2
Jan 09 10:22:32 <evolux> those strange files 1, z6 and S are obviously not there
Jan 09 10:22:40 <evolux> init wants to open it...
Jan 09 10:23:42 <evolux> can i boot into some root login?
Jan 09 10:26:53 <evolux> it starts busybox and then says "bad inittab entry 'id:5:initdefault:'"
Jan 09 10:26:57 <evolux> what's wrong with that entry?
Jan 09 10:28:12 <evolux> ok, i'll just reinstall...
Jan 09 10:36:34 <dagger|work> is there any documentation how to use cli_framework?
Jan 09 10:37:51 <max_posedon> hm... It just python interface to dbus
Jan 09 10:38:37 <max_posedon> You can easy do the same using mdbus -s, and mdbus for me is better because he cam 
Jan 09 10:38:45 <max_posedon> *can "scan" API.
Jan 09 10:40:35 <dagger|work> max_posedon: the small problem is, I know nothing about it (yet) and I need to test it. Currently reading docs at http://git.freesmartphone.org/?p=specs.git;a=blob_plain;f=html/org.freesmartphone.GSM.Device.html;hb=HEAD but it's quite complicated when you see it for the first time
Jan 09 10:41:29 <max_posedon> You should begin with dbus documentation, than for example you can do:
Jan 09 10:41:33 <max_posedon> mdbus -s 
Jan 09 10:41:39 <ernst> :sleipnir Thank You very much
Jan 09 10:41:58 <max_posedon> mdbus -s org.freesmartphone.frameworkd
Jan 09 10:42:16 <max_posedon> mdbus -s org.freesmartphone.frameworkd /opt/freesmartphone/GSM/Device
Jan 09 10:42:43 <max_posedon> (some kind of this) And you will understand main idear, and how to communicate with dbus)
Jan 09 10:43:23 <dagger|work> max_posedon: thank for that. It's a very good starting point ^^
Jan 09 10:51:42 <dns53> are the api's written anywhere?
Jan 09 10:51:53 <dns53> how do you find the data type returned?
Jan 09 10:58:13 <max_posedon> dns53, accoding to dbus specification, all services should return their API if you asks them)
Jan 09 10:58:16 <max_posedon> just try : mdbus -s org.freesmartphone.frameworkd /org/freesmartphone/GSM/Device
Jan 09 11:00:29 <dns53> mdbus does not seem to tell you but i could write some code to do it
Jan 09 11:00:55 <dagger|work> max_posedon: do you know what's the current status of frameworkd and andy-tracking? What do I need to do, to make framework talk to modem? Currently I'm trying to manually enable it with  echo "1" > /sys/devices/platform/s3c2440-i2c/i2c-adapter\:i2c-0/0-0073/neo1973-pm-gsm.0/power_on but still have some errors
Jan 09 11:02:02 <dagger|work> errors like: http://pastebin.com/md4c8456
Jan 09 11:32:51 <gfather> hello guys , good morning 
Jan 09 11:33:20 <gfather> anyone knows how to fix this http://pastie.org/356075
Jan 09 11:42:26 <max_posedon> dagger|work, I don't know what is *andy-tracking"
Jan 09 11:43:15 <dagger|work> max_posedon: Andy's 2.6.28 kernel. I'm trying to get it up and running with current git framework
Jan 09 11:44:22 <dagger|work> gfather: I'm afraid you're using Makefile which is out of date. I don't think it's maintained any longer
Jan 09 11:44:32 <gfather> whats the src for om-2008.8 ? 
Jan 09 11:44:51 <gfather> dagger|work thats from the wiki ;S
Jan 09 11:45:07 <gfather> how should i fix it ? 
Jan 09 11:45:07 <dagger|work> gfather: I know. Wiki is _very_ out of date :S
Jan 09 11:45:32 <dagger|work> gfather: what do you want to do? Build ASU image or run it on qemu?
Jan 09 11:45:47 <gfather> ahhh , and its not a 1 click task , there is so much libraries and stuff needed , so if the wiki is old , it could result in too much incopabaility stuff 
Jan 09 11:46:20 <max_posedon> but it is now problem to access gsm via dbus, making calls/etc.
Jan 09 11:46:27 <gfather> <dagger|work i want qemu so i can develop some stuff 
Jan 09 11:46:31 <max_posedon> dagger, I can't help you with this...
Jan 09 11:46:57 <dagger|work> gfather: it will be very hard to get qemu to run, as you need stuff from .... like april/may 2008
Jan 09 11:47:19 <gfather> so what should i do ? 
Jan 09 11:47:20 <dagger|work> gfather: let me take a look if I don't have it somewhere on my disk
Jan 09 11:47:31 <gfather> oks 
Jan 09 11:48:13 <dagger|work> gfather: what arch are you using? x86 or x86_64?
Jan 09 11:48:21 <gfather> x86 
Jan 09 11:49:41 <dagger|work> damn. I've got some stuff, but it's precompiled for x86_64. Can you try to get just qemu to compile than?
Jan 09 11:51:02 <gfather> let me see what i can do :S
Jan 09 11:51:23 <dagger|work> gfather: you should be able to "make qemu"
Jan 09 11:52:11 <gfather> its compiling
Jan 09 11:53:38 <dagger|work> gfather: I never managed to run gta02 on qemu, but what I've got (based on Andrzej Zaborowski's work) works ok with recent images for GTA01
Jan 09 11:53:58 <dagger|work> gta02 doesn't offer many advantages on qemu anyway
Jan 09 11:54:20 <gfather> well it dont matter for me if its gta01 or gta02 , as what i want is om-2008.8 
Jan 09 11:54:48 <dagger|work> you will need to download om-2008.8-gta01.jffs2 than
Jan 09 11:54:59 <dagger|work> I will prepare the rest of the files for you
Jan 09 11:55:40 <gfather> great :) , at last its gonna work 
Jan 09 11:58:19 <gfather> http://downloads.openmoko.org/releases/Om2008.12/   no gta01 ? 
Jan 09 12:01:09 <Ghiottone> I fear they really have dropped support for gta01
Jan 09 12:01:35 <Ghiottone> which makes me unhappy as a gta01 owner
Jan 09 12:03:34 <gfather> i searched http://downloads.openmoko.org/ , cant find om-2008.8-gta01.jffs
Jan 09 12:03:58 <gfather> someone updates the wiki :S
Jan 09 12:04:29 <gfather> new comers are having more unneeded trouble with that wiki 
Jan 09 12:04:56 <gfather> Ghiottone what om ur using ? 
Jan 09 12:06:51 <Ghiottone> gfather, actually I'm not using gta01 atm. I just read about this on the community mailing list
Jan 09 12:07:29 <gfather> :S
Jan 09 12:07:57 <dagger|work> gfather: you might want to try gta02 image too - http://downloads.openmoko.org/obsolete-images/Om2008.8/
Jan 09 12:08:08 <Ghiottone> gfather, I have yet to see an official mail though. so there's hope
Jan 09 12:08:37 <gfather> dagger|work ok , im downloading it 
Jan 09 12:09:04 <kd8ikt> why use old images?
Jan 09 12:09:11 <kd8ikt> go for something like http://downloads.freesmartphone.org/fso-testing/images/om-gta01/
Jan 09 12:09:43 <kd8ikt> 08-Jan-2009  sounds better to me than 09-Jan-2008
Jan 09 12:10:48 <dagger|work> gfather: I've uploaded tarball for you here: http://patches.piasek.co.uk/Qemu.tar.bz2
Jan 09 12:11:12 <dagger|work> once you download and extract it, delete qemu dir and replace it with your (x86) one
Jan 09 12:11:23 <kd8ikt> just want to throw that out there, the foldername is named "obsolete"  for a reason
Jan 09 12:11:37 <dagger|work> than download jffs2 image and place it in images/root.jffs2
Jan 09 12:11:53 <dagger|work> that go to scripts and run ./flash.sh and ./qemu-auto.sh
Jan 09 12:12:19 <dagger|work> flash will flash virtual NAND based on jffs2 image you provided and qemu-auto will run it
Jan 09 12:13:36 <gfather> great 
Jan 09 12:14:07 <dagger|work> you might also want to take a look on scripts/env to adjust your environment
Jan 09 12:14:13 <gfather> but now im confused with images  , should i get the gta02 or gta01 from <kd8ikt link 
Jan 09 12:15:15 <dagger|work> qemu will work in GTA01 mode.
Jan 09 12:15:40 <dagger|work> you might want to try. If that won't help, than you've got 2008.12
Jan 09 12:16:02 <dagger|work> http://downloads.openmoko.org/daily/testing/ - it's got image for gta01
Jan 09 12:20:03 <reSpawn> any info on battery life?
Jan 09 12:23:32 <kd8ikt> no offense but i havent cared for the openmoko.org images in a long while
Jan 09 12:24:46 <kd8ikt> just shr and fso
Jan 09 12:25:13 <kd8ikt> bearstech and freesmartphone
Jan 09 12:28:25 <gfather> <dagger|work so i have to rplace root.jffs2 with the one i downloaded ? 
Jan 09 12:28:34 <dagger|work> gfather: yes
Jan 09 12:30:46 <kd8ikt> omfg why is enlightenment eating 80% cpu
Jan 09 12:31:09 <gfather> when i run qemu-auto.shnothing happens
Jan 09 12:31:15 <gfather> when i run qemu-auto.sh nothing happens
Jan 09 12:33:40 <gfather> <dagger|work ? 
Jan 09 12:34:00 <dagger|work> gfather: did you run flash?
Jan 09 12:34:15 <dagger|work> did it flash successfully?
Jan 09 12:35:23 <gfather> U-boot failed to finish writing in 300 seconds, giving up.
Jan 09 12:35:47 <dagger|work> gfather: you should see something like http://pastebin.com/m789ee465
Jan 09 12:37:45 <gfather> <dagger|work i tried 2 imgaes , gta01 and gta02 , same error when flashing 
Jan 09 12:37:56 <dagger|work> gfather: can you pastebin it?
Jan 09 12:38:30 <gfather> yes , im doing it 
Jan 09 12:38:41 <gfather> http://pastebin.com/m3997ba70
Jan 09 12:38:46 <dagger|work> also please ls -ls images
Jan 09 12:39:28 <dagger|work> gfather: ./flash.sh: line 70: /home/mjfahmi/moko/build/qemu/scripts/../qemu/arm-softmmu/qemu-system-arm: cannot execute binary file
Jan 09 12:39:45 <dagger|work> did you replace my qemu dir with your one (x86)?
Jan 09 12:40:04 <gfather> i deleted mine , and replaced with urs , 
Jan 09 12:40:07 <gfather> daaams 
Jan 09 12:40:10 <gfather> daaaams
Jan 09 12:40:13 <dagger|work> gfather: my one is precompiled for x86_64 so you wont run it. You need you replace it
Jan 09 12:40:13 <gfather> n
Jan 09 12:40:21 <dagger|work> ^^
Jan 09 12:41:48 <gfather> i got it back , it working ;) 
Jan 09 12:42:36 <dagger|work> did you boot it?
Jan 09 12:44:22 <gfather> still not 
Jan 09 12:44:49 <gfather> yes i booted :) 
Jan 09 12:46:05 <gfather> <dagger|work does it take too long to boot ? 
Jan 09 12:46:49 <dagger|work> gfather: define too long? FR boots in around 2min on 2008.8 and around 1min on 2008.1
Jan 09 12:46:52 <dagger|work> 12*
Jan 09 12:47:52 <gfather> im still waiting for the screen to show :S
Jan 09 12:48:35 <dagger|work> qemu boots faster than real hardware. You should have the screen by that time. What image are you using?
Jan 09 13:11:33 <Daramarak> I am currently building a prototype application for the moko, I built it in python but Ill want to use c++ to speed it up a bit. Are the c++ std libraries available on the distriubtions or do I have to make them a part of the package?
Jan 09 13:13:04 <raster> yes they are
Jan 09 13:13:42 <Daramarak> good... how about boost libraries?
Jan 09 13:15:13 <gfather> <dagger|work man im waiting all that time , and its still a blank screen 
Jan 09 13:15:20 <soul9> hah
Jan 09 13:15:40 <soul9> transfer initiated, in a little more than a wekk i'll have my freerunner \☺/
Jan 09 13:15:47 <soul9> week*
Jan 09 13:15:49 <Tuju> is there a dfu-util for windows?
Jan 09 13:16:04 <dagger|work> gfather: what image are you trying?
Jan 09 13:16:24 <gfather> http://downloads.openmoko.org/daily/testing/
Jan 09 13:16:36 <gfather> gta02 flash didntwork , only gta01 worked 
Jan 09 13:17:21 <gfather> <dagger|work will xoo give me same results ? 
Jan 09 13:17:25 <dagger|work> gfather: ok can you pastebuin any logs?
Jan 09 13:18:03 <gfather> <dagger|work where the logs sgould be  ? 
Jan 09 13:18:08 <gfather> should
Jan 09 13:19:39 <dagger|work> gfather: what happens when you run ./qemu-auto.sh
Jan 09 13:19:45 <dagger|work> does it produce any log?
Jan 09 13:20:03 <gfather> its starts 
Jan 09 13:20:14 <gfather> i press on boot 
Jan 09 13:20:57 <gfather> when its finished booting , and should show the om , i get a blank screen 
Jan 09 13:22:25 <jopk> hi
Jan 09 13:23:45 <jopk> I've got this buzz - problem with my phone. As far as I got it this is a hw issue, so what's next? is there a recommend fix already?
Jan 09 13:24:04 <gfather> back
Jan 09 13:24:45 <lindi-> jopk: 1) go stand near a window so that GSM uses less power 2) use bluetooth/usb headset 3) apply the unofficial hw fix or get somebody do it 4) wait for hw fix to be made official
Jan 09 13:26:36 <lindi-> jopk: those are all current options i know
Jan 09 13:27:09 <jopk> ok I'm waiting for 4) ... hope it will be soon. 
Jan 09 13:28:08 <lindi-> jopk: you let your phone gather dust while waiting?
Jan 09 13:28:24 <gfather> whats the svn for 2008.8 ?
Jan 09 13:28:28 <jopk> no, why?
Jan 09 13:29:17 <jopk> but it's the second hw issue. (gps sd problem). normally this would be a case of warranty
Jan 09 13:29:41 <lindi-> jopk: gps sd is not an issue, software fixes it
Jan 09 13:30:20 <jopk> another question: can I still flash images and uboot back after I've installed qi 
Jan 09 13:30:50 <lindi-> jopk: and it fixes the problem better than hardware too. it disabled the clock and sets it to use lower power. the hardware "fix" would only try filter it out
Jan 09 13:31:31 <lindi-> jopk: uboot and qi are boot loaders. you can write them to boot loader partition as many times as you like
Jan 09 13:32:23 <jopk> but don't I need nor menu to flash?
Jan 09 13:33:25 <gromez> lindi-: we can reflash with uboot after qi is in nand ?
Jan 09 13:34:22 <lindi-> gromez: with uboot on nor sure
Jan 09 13:34:41 <lindi-> jopk: you use the nor uboot
Jan 09 13:35:00 <gromez> lindi-: thanks, i'll give a try to qi later ;)
Jan 09 13:35:34 <jopk> lindi, does qi have a nor, too? ir am I mixing things up ... :(
Jan 09 13:36:10 <lindi-> jopk: ?
Jan 09 13:36:19 <lindi-> jopk: you can not write to nor without debug board
Jan 09 13:36:59 <jopk> so I can't mess it up :)
Jan 09 13:37:19 <lindi-> afaik not
Jan 09 13:37:46 <lindi-> it's designed to be unbrickable
Jan 09 13:56:04 <jopk> I had my freerunner with me on holdays on the Canary Islands. I've tried gps with tango gps at home, worked well. on the island I didn't get a single fix, max satellite number was 3, but not enough for fix. it didn't have a single could in the sky. can somebody explain this?
Jan 09 13:56:34 <jopk> at home (germany I've normally about 8 satellites
Jan 09 13:56:57 <jopk> but gps should work all over the world, shoudn't it?
Jan 09 13:57:46 <Wonka> think so
Jan 09 13:57:58 <Wonka> and the Canaries are not exactly polar too
Jan 09 13:58:24 <Wonka> you have been outside and standing still for at least 15 minutes?
Jan 09 13:58:30 <jopk> yes
Jan 09 13:58:36 <jopk> more than once
Jan 09 13:59:20 <Wonka> mh, no idea then
Jan 09 13:59:39 <jopk> maybe the software was confused because of the sudden change of the location? or does the water confuse gps?
Jan 09 14:01:45 <evolux> my system is not usable anymore after opkg upgrade on fso
Jan 09 14:01:56 <evolux> does someone have a similar experience?
Jan 09 14:03:17 <evolux> for example, uboot won't load the kernel
Jan 09 14:04:40 <Slaxxer> reflash
Jan 09 14:04:58 <AntonTakk> evolux: perhaps the 2 mb kernel limit uboot has by default?
Jan 09 14:05:00 <Slaxxer> try shr
Jan 09 14:05:20 <evolux> AntonTakk: ah ok
Jan 09 14:05:56 <AntonTakk> evolux: wiki has instructions, or you can flash qi
Jan 09 14:06:11 <evolux> AntonTakk: ah, thanks. and qi is stable enough?
Jan 09 14:06:55 <AntonTakk> it has quirks, but mostly things like not wanting to work the first time, not always wantiong to resume, nothing incredibly major
Jan 09 14:07:40 <AntonTakk> i flashed it to my fr more than a month ago, hasn't caused any real problems
Jan 09 14:07:47 <evolux> cool
Jan 09 14:08:09 <evolux> i'll try it
Jan 09 14:12:23 <evolux> erm, the wiki says that Qi looks at the /boot folder of a partition on the uSD-card
Jan 09 14:12:30 <evolux> how can i tell it to use the kernel on the flash?
Jan 09 14:12:48 <evolux> it booted on my machine, but it did not use the newer 2.6.28 kernel
Jan 09 14:12:57 <evolux> don't know where it took the kernel from
Jan 09 14:15:21 <gfather> why its so damn hard to emulate openmoko ?
Jan 09 14:15:39 <gfather> errors errors , erros , not working , errors 
Jan 09 14:18:03 <evolux> very strange
Jan 09 14:18:16 <evolux> so for the next time: never ever do "opkg update; opkg upgrade"
Jan 09 14:18:50 <evolux> i have to go
Jan 09 14:18:52 <evolux> bye!
Jan 09 14:18:57 <evolux> and thank you very much for your help
Jan 09 14:19:54 <CIA-46> freesmartphone.org: 03sudharsh 07openmoko-gsoc2008 * r07f7f090e8e8 10/fsod/ (5 files in 4 dirs): Add separate debug_option group. Now fsod requires vala-0.5.4. (Thanks playya)
Jan 09 14:33:38 <uhsf> how to set file system mount points for the sd card?
Jan 09 14:34:57 <uhsf> i have /, swap and /home partitions and i can't find the part of the wiki where these can be configured.
Jan 09 14:35:18 <uhsf> do i need to edit /etc/fstab?
Jan 09 14:35:22 <Rayan> hello
Jan 09 14:51:46 <uhsf> the Neo FreeRunner partitions wiki page is very unhelpful
Jan 09 14:53:57 <spydon> uhsf, then rewrite it ;) ;)
Jan 09 14:54:21 <uhsf> spydon: do you know how to set up partitions?
Jan 09 14:54:50 <uhsf> shr on a sd card won't boot from qi
Jan 09 14:54:54 <Daramarak> Using bt headset for the om2008.12 works fine? I am considering buying a cheap Jabra BT headset for my moko.
Jan 09 14:55:14 <spydon> uhsf, no idea...
Jan 09 14:59:46 <Slaxxer> who said bt works on moko?
Jan 09 15:00:10 <Slaxxer> headset?
Jan 09 15:00:16 <spydon> Slaxxer, it doesn't have a GUI but it works fine via the terminal
Jan 09 15:00:25 <Slaxxer> ok
Jan 09 15:02:43 <Torikun> Anyone get Android running on the freerunner? I just flashed it and it does not load
Jan 09 15:03:04 <bernt> uhsf: do you have created the uImage-GTA02.bin link in /boot ?
Jan 09 15:03:16 <bernt> (on the SD)
Jan 09 15:04:04 <Daramarak> Should be quick to make a simple applet that turns bt headset on and off.
Jan 09 15:04:35 <uhsf> bernt: i created a /boot/append-GTA02
Jan 09 15:04:42 <AntonTakk> Torikun: id you follow the instructions and create a vfat partition and an ext3 partition on the sd card (in that order)?
Jan 09 15:04:54 <uhsf> bernt: containing console=tty0 loglevel=8
Jan 09 15:04:56 <spydon> Torikun, do you have qi?
Jan 09 15:05:08 <Torikun> ah ok
Jan 09 15:05:10 <Torikun> let me do that
Jan 09 15:05:21 <spydon> the default bootloader can't load the android kernel because it is too big
Jan 09 15:05:53 <uhsf> me i only have ext3 partitions on the sd card. i was told yesterday that qi can boot from ext3. is that right?
Jan 09 15:06:02 <bernt> uhsf: my /boot/append-GTA02 has: root=/dev/mmcblk0p1 console=tty0 loglevel=8 rootdelay=1
Jan 09 15:06:17 <bernt> only one partition on SD
Jan 09 15:06:55 <uhsf> bernt: if i want swap and /home, i have to edit /etc/fstab?
Jan 09 15:08:10 <bernt> uhsf: I think so, but where do you want to have swap? swap on SD-Card is not a good idea.
Jan 09 15:08:33 <Sargun_screen> bernt: why not? 
Jan 09 15:08:36 <uhsf> i'll add root=/dev/mmcblk0p1 and rootdelay=1 and try again
Jan 09 15:09:02 <Torikun> how can I creat the partitions ?
Jan 09 15:09:08 <uhsf> bernt: why is swap on microSD-Card not a good idea?
Jan 09 15:09:16 <uhsf> too slow?
Jan 09 15:09:24 <bernt> Swap on SD and the life of your card will be short ...
Jan 09 15:10:22 <uhsf> that's urban legends that flash memory has short life span
Jan 09 15:10:26 <bernt> also the options in /etc/fstab should have the noatime flag.
Jan 09 15:10:58 <uhsf> i've had an ssd drive for 3 years now on intensive use and not a single fail
Jan 09 15:11:20 <cb22> uhsf, indeed.
Jan 09 15:11:26 <uhsf> i bet my card will last longer than the freerunner
Jan 09 15:11:46 <bernt> I dont know how short it will be but in swap you have much more write ops than in the other regions.
Jan 09 15:12:13 <Torikun> How can I format the SDd card without an os on the freerunner?
Jan 09 15:12:20 <CIA-46> freesmartphone.org: 03mickey 07framework * r59855d9afbcf 10/framework/subsystems/odeviced/powercontrol_neo.py: odeviced: powercontrol_neo: use wmiconfig to enable/disable wlan0
Jan 09 15:12:20 <Torikun> Trying to install android
Jan 09 15:14:41 <uhsf> Torikun: i went through this yesterday. first step is to set up usb networking between your pc and your phone.
Jan 09 15:14:59 <Torikun> uhsf: no os is on there
Jan 09 15:15:12 <bernt> uhsf: Do you had swap on your ssd drive (24h/d) ?
Jan 09 15:15:53 <uhsf> bernt: yes, a full arch linux with swap and everything as my only pc for the last 3 years
Jan 09 15:16:22 <bernt> good to know ;-)
Jan 09 15:16:34 <uhsf> bernt: those were the very first samsung 32GB ssd to ever come out
Jan 09 15:17:18 <bernt> but I dont trust the micro SD so much as a normal SSD ...
Jan 09 15:18:25 <Tuju> is there a dfu-util for windows?
Jan 09 15:19:14 <bernt> http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Dfu-util-windows
Jan 09 15:19:38 <Tuju> bernt: thanks.
Jan 09 15:37:09 <uhsf> wow. i just booted into shr.
Jan 09 15:37:34 <ronny> hmm
Jan 09 15:37:45 <ronny> the new phone palm announced looks neat
Jan 09 15:38:11 <zash__> ronny: indeed
Jan 09 15:38:35 <ronny> the ui is reasonable fast
Jan 09 15:38:48 <ronny> not crawling like the stuff on my fr
Jan 09 15:39:04 <uhsf> ronny: i was expressing how incredibly surprised i was here yesterday about the palm pre
Jan 09 15:39:40 <ronny> yeah
Jan 09 15:39:45 <uhsf> i'm always very impartial, logical and rationnal you know
Jan 09 15:40:07 <uhsf> i'm never excited about phones in general
Jan 09 15:40:25 <ronny> however it shows the undoubtfull difference betwen "a bunch of linux kids" and pros
Jan 09 15:40:49 <uhsf> but the palm pre just sets new standards for linux phones in 2009. as simple as this.
Jan 09 15:41:14 <frankS2> palm pre? url plz
Jan 09 15:41:33 <ronny> ops, just closed it
Jan 09 15:41:56 <frankS2> is it linux based?
Jan 09 15:42:13 <uhsf> it's like the palm pre is alone in it's class leaving everything openmoko, android, iphone, etc. far behind
Jan 09 15:42:40 <uhsf> they even managed to offer a wireless charger
Jan 09 15:42:52 <uhsf> that's just over the top
Jan 09 15:43:27 <frankS2> looks neat
Jan 09 15:43:53 <uhsf> their market shares went up 35% after the annoucement it's insane
Jan 09 15:45:27 <ronny> is it really linux based?
Jan 09 15:45:44 <uhsf> it is
Jan 09 15:45:48 <ronny> kinda sad
Jan 09 15:45:55 <uhsf> why
Jan 09 15:45:58 <ronny> linux is a fscking sucker for that device class
Jan 09 15:46:12 <uhsf> sucker?
Jan 09 15:46:19 <ronny> various parts of linux are totally x86 centric
Jan 09 15:46:31 <uhsf> linux is the best for everything to me
Jan 09 15:47:06 <ronny> for me linux is just the least messed up pile of shit for the time being
Jan 09 15:47:40 <uhsf> if my freerunner can't get stable and faster until the pre is released i might buy the thing
Jan 09 15:47:44 <ronny> and its totally braindead for non-x86 things
Jan 09 15:48:00 <ronny> uhsf: then you will buy the pre for sure
Jan 09 15:48:09 <uhsf> palm will surely have managed to figure out stability and speed
Jan 09 15:48:30 <uhsf> + they have the keyboard that i miss from the freerunner
Jan 09 15:48:37 <ronny> and they dont have a history of fuckups and scrap overs in the public
Jan 09 15:48:51 <uhsf> 3g i don't care much though
Jan 09 15:49:36 <uhsf> they just failed to put an oled screen in there that would have been real cool
Jan 09 15:50:52 <uhsf> i hope openmoko people are following this new release closely i'm surprised not much people here give their opinion
Jan 09 15:51:36 <ronny> uhsf: i belive most people are like "duh, still a pile of crap, lets do something intresting"
Jan 09 15:53:20 <uhsf> on technological stand point this is probably the most revolutionnary thing of 2009 and maybe history of cellphones
Jan 09 15:53:29 <uhsf> why. because it's linux
Jan 09 15:54:03 <uhsf> it's huge for everything linux and opensource world
Jan 09 15:55:19 <uhsf> i even noticed the apple fanboys that are usually loud at trolling in the tech blogs, they totally shut up on this release
Jan 09 15:55:48 <uhsf> they're probably crying in their corner or something
Jan 09 15:55:59 <idarwin> You don't think all the stylish apps are going to be open source do you? I'll bet it's like OS X; the OS is open source and all the apps are not. Time will tell if I'm wrong.  Even so, if you can add your own apps and actually talk to the device in a useful way, it's a good step for a big co to take.
Jan 09 15:57:13 <uhsf> idarwin: it's linux so there are millions apps available. people will get it. screw the app store
Jan 09 15:57:41 <mjr> and you don't know what you're talking about
Jan 09 15:58:27 <uhsf> mjr: where am i mistaken?
Jan 09 15:58:57 <mjr> you jump to an awful lot of conclusions based merely on the thing running linux
Jan 09 15:59:07 <mjr> almost every one of which is unwarranted
Jan 09 15:59:16 <mjr> well, everyone
Jan 09 16:00:12 <uhsf> every linux device i know please my open source interest
Jan 09 16:01:24 <uhsf> it's maybe only the set of 'nix tools that gives that freedom
Jan 09 16:02:27 <uhsf> anything openmoko, android, maemo, linux wrt routers
Jan 09 16:02:40 <mjr> tivo? :]
Jan 09 16:03:02 <uhsf> anything to move the crowd away from M$ and apple
Jan 09 16:03:32 <uhsf> in that sense, the palm pre is a win
Jan 09 16:53:42 <uhsf> i'd like to express again my satisfaction of booting into shr for the first time this morning
Jan 09 16:54:08 <uhsf> anyone else using shr here?
Jan 09 16:54:16 <Tm_T> sure, many
Jan 09 16:54:33 <uhsf> any ideas i should be aware of?
Jan 09 16:54:50 <uhsf> my first impression is very good
Jan 09 16:55:23 <Tm_T> uhsf: don't enable shadows
Jan 09 16:55:35 <uhsf> i was not a fan of enlightenment but i suppose it's well done here
Jan 09 16:56:14 <uhsf> Tm_T: of course i'm gonna configure the thing all the way to minimalism
Jan 09 16:56:39 <uhsf> i noticed the slowness of the sd card
Jan 09 16:57:00 <uhsf> it's the first time i try anything with the fr
Jan 09 16:57:16 <uhsf> i had 2007.2 since early july
Jan 09 16:57:30 * Tm_T uses Qtextended and SHR
Jan 09 16:57:43 <uhsf> i feel like having a brand new phone today
Jan 09 16:58:31 <uhsf> i noticed the blue power button led that had never show up before
Jan 09 16:59:11 <uhsf> shr software selection seems fine
Jan 09 16:59:35 <uhsf> i like midori it was connected directly to the web, very cool
Jan 09 17:00:00 <uhsf> it gives me the root user warning though
Jan 09 17:00:06 <kd8ikt> ah wtf latest fso zhone wont pop up the incall window
Jan 09 17:00:34 <max_posedon> he-he, uhsf, many bad things wait you in the future)
Jan 09 17:00:39 <uhsf> do you set up another user on the freerunner? or do you stay root?
Jan 09 17:00:44 <kd8ikt> so do people apply patches ot what
Jan 09 17:00:59 <max_posedon> shr-sms app, for example, receive not all smses
Jan 09 17:01:18 <max_posedon> I can read them directly via dbus, but not via application.
Jan 09 17:01:37 <badcloud> I accidentally edited /etc/X11/Xsession instead of Xserver
Jan 09 17:01:39 <uhsf> max_posedon: that's why i'll buy the palm pre when it comes out
Jan 09 17:02:03 <badcloud> anyplace to redownload file instead of flashing the filesystem again?
Jan 09 17:02:07 <uhsf> 'til then shr seems an improvement over 2007.2
Jan 09 17:02:21 <max_posedon> as for me - I really like SHR project, and really *hate* all, that didn't created around dbus
Jan 09 17:02:56 <uhsf> i don't understand, shr has no dbus?
Jan 09 17:03:37 <uhsf> ok, some apps don't do dbus
Jan 09 17:04:09 <kd8ikt> like wifi apps
Jan 09 17:04:21 <kd8ikt> or lack there of
Jan 09 17:04:21 <uhsf> i'm gonna install again with the imminent new release may be it has improved
Jan 09 17:04:30 <badcloud> could someone just send me theirs?
Jan 09 17:04:44 <uhsf> so, do you set up another user on the freerunner? or do you stay root?
Jan 09 17:05:13 <kd8ikt> badcloud: you could try getting the rootfs.tgz
Jan 09 17:05:24 <kd8ikt> extract then copy the missing file
Jan 09 17:05:28 <badcloud> right, thanks
Jan 09 17:12:39 <Digital_Pioneer> lindi-, raster: OK, so why did these apps NOT segfault before, and they DO now? :\
Jan 09 17:12:52 <Digital_Pioneer> Methinks it's illume's fault...
Jan 09 17:13:46 <lindi-> Digital_Pioneer: what apps?
Jan 09 17:14:04 <max_posedon> uhsf, I don't need another user) and actually I didn't use gprs/wifi often
Jan 09 17:14:12 <Digital_Pioneer> Happens to the dialer, contacts, messages (SMS) and alarm clock apps.
Jan 09 17:14:47 <uhsf> max_posedon: ty. how to avoid gtk root warnings?
Jan 09 17:15:17 <kd8ikt> oh well i just grabbed the git of zhone and it seems to work now http://git.freesmartphone.org/?p=zhone.git;a=blob_plain;f=src/zhone;hb=HEAD
Jan 09 17:15:37 <max_posedon> uhsf, I just ignore them.
Jan 09 17:16:01 <kd8ikt> heh yeah look the other way and you wont see them
Jan 09 17:19:50 <uhsf> i'm deceived gps doesn't work out of the box in shr
Jan 09 17:21:11 <uhsf> max_posedon: does your icons on shr home screen are a little cut out at bottom?
Jan 09 17:21:37 <uhsf> seems it should have been laid out better
Jan 09 17:21:58 <kd8ikt> gps should work
Jan 09 17:22:45 <kd8ikt> is fso-gpsd running? insta;;ed?
Jan 09 17:23:12 <spydon> uhsf, when you get more icons you can scroll through them
Jan 09 17:23:38 <uhsf> spydon: i don't get how to scroll
Jan 09 17:23:44 <kd8ikt> cat  /sys/devices/platform/s3c2440-i2c/i2c-adapter/i2c-0/0-0073/neo1973-pm-gps.0/pwron   is it on? 1=on
Jan 09 17:23:47 <max_posedon> uhsf, hm... no, if I currect they looks fine, and yes I need to scroll)
Jan 09 17:24:08 <spydon> just drag the finger from the bottom and up if you shall scroll down
Jan 09 17:24:15 <max_posedon> uhsf, just put you finger at bottom and "move up"
Jan 09 17:25:13 <uhsf> is there a more informative website than the shr project blog?
Jan 09 17:26:26 <uhsf> i found it http://shr.bearstech.com/trac/
Jan 09 17:33:43 <Ainulindale> uhsf: the URLs are in the blog.
Jan 09 17:33:50 <Ainulindale> In the last post!
Jan 09 17:34:03 <Ainulindale> uhsf: And GPS is supposed to work, we had a problem with latest OE.
Jan 09 17:45:54 <uhsf> well, i'm very happy to have made the best software choice for my freerunner at first time, shr
Jan 09 17:47:18 <badcloud> anyone here get a libfakekey0 dependency error when trying to install matchbox-keyboard-inputmethod on shr?
Jan 09 17:48:46 <uhsf> badcloud: is that matchbox-keyboard-inputmethod really better than the default shr keyboard?
Jan 09 17:49:11 <uhsf> because i think the default shr keyboard is really good
Jan 09 17:49:14 <badcloud> hmmm, probably not. I just wanted to install a more fingerfriendly one
Jan 09 17:49:45 <uhsf> ok, i'd like to have a dvorak variant though
Jan 09 17:49:53 <uhsf> it seems i would have so much to do to fine tune the interface to my liking, but i don't really have time for this, i prefer working on my pc instead, or do school homeworks y know
Jan 09 17:50:09 <badcloud> I hear that
Jan 09 17:50:25 <badcloud> but for sms'ing, you have to have a one-hander
Jan 09 17:51:50 <uhsf> anyway i feel like i'm linux pro because i successfuly installed shr on the freerunner i'm happy with that
Jan 09 17:52:37 <badcloud> it does feel nice, yes
Jan 09 17:55:50 <badcloud> apropos sms, anyway to actually send one to a contact instead of having to dish out the full phone number each time?
Jan 09 18:22:49 <Dave> :)
Jan 09 18:23:04 <Dave> hei badcloud :]
Jan 09 18:34:00 <catzilla> does openmoko os support 3g hardware?
Jan 09 18:37:35 <catzilla> pm me if you know
Jan 09 18:38:42 * toggles_w bows
Jan 09 18:41:25 <badcloud> hey there Dave
Jan 09 18:41:37 <badcloud> how are things?
Jan 09 18:49:09 <docscrutinzrflu> moin
Jan 09 19:03:40 <Dave> Joerg :)
Jan 09 19:03:59 <docscrutinzrflu> hi dave!
Jan 09 19:04:52 <docscrutinzrflu> why didn't anybody tell catzilla about Harald's recent work for glofiish M800?
Jan 09 19:05:37 <Dave> hehe
Jan 09 19:05:42 <Dave> meow?
Jan 09 19:06:31 <docscrutinzrflu> catzilla eat glofiish?  ;-)
Jan 09 19:06:40 <Dave> rawr :D
Jan 09 19:06:43 <docscrutinzrflu> yuppy
Jan 09 19:10:01 <docscrutinzrflu> s/p/g/g
Jan 09 19:10:01 <apt> docscrutinzrflu meant: yuggy
Jan 09 19:11:23 <Dave> Crap, I need to jump start this freerunner
Jan 09 19:12:54 <docscrutinzrflu> Dave: tztztzzz. you never learn ;)
Jan 09 19:14:04 <docscrutinzrflu> didn't you manage to keep a spare bat yet?
Jan 09 19:14:49 <docscrutinzrflu> waaah, -36°C in D-funtensee
Jan 09 19:15:40 <Dave> :o
Jan 09 19:15:52 <Dave> Joerg, yeah, but I don't have any here with me right now
Jan 09 19:16:05 <docscrutinzrflu> :-(
Jan 09 19:16:10 <Dave> So I may have to find something else or just connect a power supply
Jan 09 19:16:24 <docscrutinzrflu> yup
Jan 09 19:17:57 <docscrutinzrflu> well 30sec charge with ~1A should be easy. Meanwhile the  occasional exploding bat shouldn't scare you anymore, I guess :)
Jan 09 19:20:16 <docscrutinzrflu> you might consider to upgrade to a decent Vsys-cap eventually
Jan 09 19:22:08 <Dave> Yeah :[
Jan 09 19:22:19 <CIA-46> freesmartphone.org: 03mickey 07fso-monitord * raf483ebeb700 10/src/ (consts.vala obj.vala): damn signal not getting called :/
Jan 09 19:22:22 <Dave> haha, true Joerg :P
Jan 09 19:22:26 <Dave> exploding is normal now :P
Jan 09 19:24:01 <docscrutinzrflu> alas we still haven't achieved to implement this for a selfdestruct mechanism to MP ;-P
Jan 09 19:24:13 <Dave> hehehe :P
Jan 09 19:24:16 <Dave> yeah
Jan 09 19:26:24 <Arg0naut> in #openmoko-cdevel
Jan 09 19:27:10 <RedFlash> hi, is it somehow possible to swotch to the old
Jan 09 19:27:23 <uhsf> i try to ssh to the freerunner but i get this error: ssh: connect to host 192.168.0.202 port 22: No route to host
Jan 09 19:27:31 <RedFlash> keyboard design from FSO in OM2008.12 ?
Jan 09 19:27:48 <Dave> uhsf, add a route for it on your pc
Jan 09 19:27:51 <Dave> for usb0
Jan 09 19:28:09 <Dave> also make sure the interface is up and configured correctly
Jan 09 19:28:56 <uhsf> it's weird everything was set up fine earlier and i didn't change anything
Jan 09 19:29:14 <Dave> did you try reconnecting?
Jan 09 19:29:22 <Dave> (physically)
Jan 09 19:29:33 <Dave> especially if you use any sort of autoconf or hotplug scripts on your pc
Jan 09 19:29:38 <uhsf> yes
Jan 09 19:30:14 <uhsf> i installed the openmoko-usb-networking package for arch linux
Jan 09 19:30:32 <uhsf> but i don't know how it works exactly
Jan 09 19:31:10 <Dave> :o
Jan 09 19:31:15 <Dave> yeah, I have no idea
Jan 09 19:31:18 <uhsf> does the switch from 2007.2 to SHR changes something in networking?
Jan 09 19:37:10 <Dave> Joerg, I'm still thinking about that 810... unless there's something better :)
Jan 09 19:37:37 <DocScrutinzrFlu> Nokia?
Jan 09 19:38:02 <Dave> yeah
Jan 09 19:40:15 <DocScrutinzrFlu> just rebooted unadvertedly. Otherwise its nice
Jan 09 19:40:23 <Dave> :P
Jan 09 19:40:26 <Dave> okay
Jan 09 19:41:59 <Tm_T> nothing fancy in it
Jan 09 19:42:28 <mmp> tifereth: ping
Jan 09 19:42:37 <Tm_T> though not bad either, except perhaps some undocumented bits in hardware I guess
Jan 09 19:42:49 <Tm_T> undocumented as in closed
Jan 09 19:43:01 <Tm_T> dunno how much is left though
Jan 09 19:44:45 <CIA-46> freesmartphone.org: 03mickey 07framework * rf78a6d92cf8c 10/ (4 files in 3 dirs): 
Jan 09 19:44:45 <CIA-46> freesmartphone.org: ogsmd: [TI CALYPSO] resend the DSP command on every call setup.
Jan 09 19:44:45 <CIA-46> freesmartphone.org: NOTE: I'm not convinced and there is no evidence that this is necessary,
Jan 09 19:44:45 <CIA-46> freesmartphone.org: but I'm sick of discussing this over and over again, hence it goes in.
Jan 09 19:44:45 <CIA-46> freesmartphone.org: This closes #253 for good.
Jan 09 19:45:54 <DocScrutinzrFlu> mickeyl: :)
Jan 09 19:46:02 <mickeyl> nah
Jan 09 19:46:04 <mickeyl> rather :(
Jan 09 19:46:08 <mickeyl> this pollutes the code
Jan 09 19:46:12 <mickeyl> not feeling good about it
Jan 09 19:46:44 <DocScrutinzrFlu> we'll eventually clean it upnagain with MOKO11
Jan 09 19:46:59 <Dave> heh moko11
Jan 09 19:48:47 <DocScrutinzrFlu> mickeyl: i wouldnt be surprised to find it *should* be sticky, but is a  flaw in calypso-fw
Jan 09 19:50:17 <Dave> apt calypso?
Jan 09 19:50:38 <DocScrutinzrFlu> mickeyl: Dieter should be able to figure it out
Jan 09 19:51:03 <Wonka> DocFlu: get better...
Jan 09 19:51:19 <mickeyl> well
Jan 09 19:51:24 <mickeyl> dieter already said it's close to impossible
Jan 09 19:51:28 <mickeyl> this stuff is in DSP
Jan 09 19:51:35 <mickeyl> he shouldn't bother
Jan 09 19:51:39 <DocScrutinzrFlu> Wonka: feeling like no fever first day this year. Thanks
Jan 09 19:51:43 <mickeyl> #1024 and then calypso is done IMO
Jan 09 19:52:58 <Dave> Wonka :D
Jan 09 19:53:05 <DocScrutinzrFlu> mickeyl: #1024 is near to impossible cause close to dsp. setting audio parameters sticky shouldnt be hard
Jan 09 19:53:35 <apollo13> hi guys, I flashed android on the freerunner, and it tells me that the kernel crc sums missmatch, which howto should I follow to get it working?
Jan 09 19:53:41 <Wonka> i'd like some easier way to start and stop ppp-over-gprs than using a terminal emulator
Jan 09 19:53:45 <Dave> Joerg, you must be ill, that sentence made no sense :D
Jan 09 19:53:54 <Dave> Wonka, don't we all :)
Jan 09 19:54:00 <Wonka> and also, i'd like a way to have the terminal gray on black
Jan 09 19:54:09 <Wonka> black on white is ugly.
Jan 09 19:54:34 <Dave> haha, you'd hate me, Wonka :p
Jan 09 19:54:50 <Dave> pink on black :D
Jan 09 19:54:56 <DocScrutinzrFlu> Dave: this sentence is sloppy but has meaning. Just you dont get it
Jan 09 19:55:06 <Dave> it's like the fortune cookie, Joerg
Jan 09 19:55:26 <Dave> Profound, confusing, yet whoever originally wrote it thought it made sense [to them] :)
Jan 09 19:55:30 <DocScrutinzrFlu> Dave: apt  calypso? has *is* senseless tho
Jan 09 19:55:32 <toggles_w> toggles_w: !!!!!
Jan 09 19:55:41 <Dave> hahah wtf
Jan 09 19:55:47 <Dave> toggles, excited to see yourself? :P
Jan 09 19:56:04 <toggles_w> i wanted someone to talk to me so i could see my name highlighted
Jan 09 19:56:11 <toggles_w> it didn't work
Jan 09 19:56:13 <Dave> aww
Jan 09 19:56:39 <Wonka> Dave: urghs. gay? ;)
Jan 09 19:56:44 <Dave> :D
Jan 09 19:56:47 <Wonka> Dave: i'd rather take green on black
Jan 09 19:57:02 <Dave> Yeah, I also find that darker or off colors work best
Jan 09 19:57:12 <Dave> you really have to tone the brightness down or it kills your eyes
Jan 09 19:57:27 <Dave> you have to use a dark gray or else your eyesight goes quick :P
Jan 09 19:57:32 <Dave> or something
Jan 09 19:57:38 <DocScrutinzrFlu> wtf are U talking bout?
Jan 09 19:57:38 <Dave> the usual terminal colors are pretty terrible
Jan 09 19:57:43 <Dave> Joerg :P
Jan 09 19:59:23 <toggles_w> seriously... there has to be a better way to make a living than look at sql on friday afternoons..
Jan 09 20:02:13 <Dave> bleh
Jan 09 20:02:23 <Dave> toggles, you a dba? ;p
Jan 09 20:02:26 <Dave> or dbw?
Jan 09 20:03:39 <CIA-46> freesmartphone.org: 03mickey 07framework * rf734551d4231 10/framework/subsystems/ogsmd/modems/ti_calypso/channel.py: 
Jan 09 20:03:39 <CIA-46> freesmartphone.org: ogsmd: [TI CALYPSO]: only reinit UnsolicitedCommand channel.
Jan 09 20:03:39 <CIA-46> freesmartphone.org: Kill reenabling timer if we're suspending before the timer hits.
Jan 09 20:04:30 <toggles_w> Dave: embedded developer, mainly comms/protocol conversions, wtf i have to deal with sql these days is beyond me
Jan 09 20:05:41 <toggles_w> it's nearly beer:30 though, trouble is with the snow predicted it's going to be tough to get to and from the pub ;-)
Jan 09 20:07:28 <Wonka> toggles_w: if it only was sql... i do java.
Jan 09 20:08:53 <toggles_w> mmm java, i heard thats gehy...
Jan 09 20:08:56 <toggles_w> ;-)
Jan 09 20:08:58 <DocScrutinzrFlu> *yawn* terminator3 censorcrippled to "free >12" :-/
Jan 09 20:09:15 <uhsf> why i can't ping the neo anymore?
Jan 09 20:09:38 <uhsf> is sshd startec automatically in shr?
Jan 09 20:09:40 <Tm_T> uhsf: because it talks pong now
Jan 09 20:11:01 <Dave> toggles, you getting the snow too? :D
Jan 09 20:11:13 <Dave> joerg o.O
Jan 09 20:11:20 <uhsf> i can ping the web from the neo but not the pc
Jan 09 20:11:27 <Dave> haha
Jan 09 20:11:28 <Dave> funny
Jan 09 20:11:41 <Tm_T> Dave: we have ~40 cm snow and -25 °C here
Jan 09 20:11:54 <Dave> Awesome!
Jan 09 20:11:58 <Dave> Are you in Austria too?
Jan 09 20:12:11 <Tm_T> Dave: nah, that's way too south for me
Jan 09 20:12:16 <Tm_T> too sunny and all
Jan 09 20:12:20 <Dave> :o
Jan 09 20:12:24 <Dave> north pole?
Jan 09 20:12:34 <Tm_T> nah, that's too sunny in summer
Jan 09 20:12:42 <Tm_T> Eastern Finland
Jan 09 20:12:46 <Dave> :D
Jan 09 20:12:54 <Dave> Suomi
Jan 09 20:13:01 <toggles_w> Dave: yeah, lots of snow
Jan 09 20:13:06 <Tm_T> that, that's the one, one yes
Jan 09 20:13:57 <Dave> miten itsellänne on pullat uunissa?
Jan 09 20:14:18 <uhsf> i'm in the north of quebec, but finland is still northern than me
Jan 09 20:14:18 <Dave> balrogkun :o
Jan 09 20:14:36 <Dave> uhsf, parlez-vous?
Jan 09 20:14:48 <toggles_w> uhsf: how far up? sept illes?
Jan 09 20:15:06 <uhsf> toggles_w: chicoutimi
Jan 09 20:15:19 <Dave> Where is you, Mr. Toggles?
Jan 09 20:15:30 <toggles_w> pittsburgh
Jan 09 20:15:33 <Dave> :o
Jan 09 20:15:43 <Dave> come skiing with me in NY :)
Jan 09 20:17:24 <toggles_w> sounds like fun
Jan 09 20:17:33 <uhsf> i rebooted the neo and now i can ping. what happened?
Jan 09 20:17:35 <Dave> :)
Jan 09 20:17:40 * Dave throws a snowball at toggles
Jan 09 20:17:47 <Dave> Let the games begin!
Jan 09 20:17:58 * toggles_w throws some yellow snow at Dave
Jan 09 20:18:25 <Dave> ewwwww
Jan 09 20:18:35 <toggles_w> Dave: catch that!
Jan 09 20:19:11 <uhsf> Tm_T and i would win the games we have many times more snow
Jan 09 20:20:18 <DocScrutinzrFlu> watch out where the huskies go...
Jan 09 20:20:43 <DocScrutinzrFlu> dont you eat that...
Jan 09 20:20:44 <balrog-kun> hey Dave
Jan 09 20:22:41 <uhsf> is it possible that when wifi is turned on in shr, the usb0 link dies?
Jan 09 20:23:07 <uhsf> i think that's what happened
Jan 09 20:25:08 <Dave> Joerg ;p
Jan 09 20:25:22 <Dave> balrogkun, you played with the latest kernel yet?
Jan 09 20:25:27 <Dave> toggles, it's snowing!
Jan 09 20:27:02 <balrog-kun> Dave: on the GTA? nopes
Jan 09 20:27:04 <uhsf> i get a ssh host key warning since i installed shr
Jan 09 20:27:14 <balrog-kun> i have a quite recent one on my netbook though :)
Jan 09 20:28:08 <uhsf> i don't understand how to edit .ssh/known_hosts
Jan 09 20:28:34 <uhsf> for the new ssh host key
Jan 09 20:28:56 <Dave> heh
Jan 09 20:29:02 <Dave> poor uhsf, still having problem?
Jan 09 20:29:10 <Dave> problems
Jan 09 20:29:44 <uhsf> the shr seem to have change ssh host key
Jan 09 20:31:18 <DocScrutinzrFlu> Dave: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j2nJn6rZdtI
Jan 09 20:33:57 <piko> Hi, I get the debugboard and I have some troubles as I do not know how to connect it. Is there any introductory text with images? Why are the screws (not sure by the proper word)?
Jan 09 20:34:05 <piko> ... included?
Jan 09 20:35:33 <Dave> :P
Jan 09 20:36:16 <piko> Ok, I only need to know which USB port should be connected.
Jan 09 20:37:01 <Dave> Joerg, how did you get sick this time?
Jan 09 20:37:23 <DocScrutinzrFlu> 25C3 i'd guess
Jan 09 20:37:31 <uhsf> i only needed to delete everything in .ssh/known_hosts since shr had changed the ssh host key
Jan 09 20:37:40 <Dave> uhsf, then easy
Jan 09 20:37:43 <Dave> that happens often
Jan 09 20:37:46 <DocScrutinzrFlu> as my colleague got sick same day...
Jan 09 20:37:54 <Dave> Joerg :x
Jan 09 20:37:55 <balrog-kun> piko: there's one mini USB port and two full size
Jan 09 20:37:58 <Dave> So Openmoko got you sick? :D
Jan 09 20:38:00 <balrog-kun> piko: connect to the mini USB
Jan 09 20:38:19 <uhsf> shr colored bash prompt in blue and green :-D
Jan 09 20:38:37 <Dave> sounds like shr
Jan 09 20:38:39 <Dave> :P
Jan 09 20:38:40 <piko> balrog-kun: ok, mini-usb to computer and normal USB to openmoko?
Jan 09 20:38:41 <DocScrutinzrFlu> Dave: unfortunately i really dont need OM to get sick. 
Jan 09 20:38:48 <Dave> It's a virus!
Jan 09 20:38:54 <balrog-kun> ahtrax!
Jan 09 20:39:02 <Dave> Now we have confirmation!
Jan 09 20:39:16 <balrog-kun> piko: nope, mini-usb to computer and the debug board cable to openmoko
Jan 09 20:39:41 <balrog-kun> piko: a flat and wide connector
Jan 09 20:39:44 <piko> balrog-kun: ok, great, any manual?
Jan 09 20:39:57 <piko> For beginning woth debugboard?
Jan 09 20:40:04 <balrog-kun> i don't know of any
Jan 09 20:40:45 <balrog-kun> i think when i got my debug board i just tried out all the combinations until the leds started to flash in happy colours
Jan 09 20:41:56 <piko> balrog-kun: Great, I like this way (hearing that it did not break it:-)
Jan 09 20:43:55 <piko> balrog-kun: but in that case OM wont be powered
Jan 09 20:44:51 <balrog-kun> piko: ah yes, you can connect the OM's usb port to the debug board or to pc for power
Jan 09 20:45:34 <balrog-kun> when i use the debug board's (full-size) usb port i can never communicate witht he phone over it
Jan 09 20:45:52 <frankS2> craphat
Jan 09 20:45:57 <balrog-kun> and by the way..
Jan 09 20:46:00 <balrog-kun> A Vulcan can no sooner be disloyal than he can exist without breathing.
Jan 09 20:46:05 <balrog-kun> (spoken in robot voice)
Jan 09 20:46:26 <piko> balrog-kun: so the network does not work over it?
Jan 09 20:46:29 <piko> balrog-kun: V
Jan 09 20:46:47 <piko> balrog-kun: or more \V/
Jan 09 20:47:03 <balrog-kun> piko: it works when i conect the OM to my PC directly
Jan 09 20:47:10 <uhsf> tangoGPS doesn't show my posisition
Jan 09 20:47:13 <balrog-kun> (apart from the debug board connection)
Jan 09 20:47:21 <DocScrutinzrFlu> negotiation of maxI via usb hub is tricky
Jan 09 20:47:23 <balrog-kun> connect*
Jan 09 20:47:53 <DocScrutinzrFlu> usually U wont get even 500mA
Jan 09 20:48:50 <DocScrutinzrFlu> so better dont connect neo via debubo usb
Jan 09 20:49:14 <uhsf> why tangoGPS doesn't show my posisition?
Jan 09 20:49:22 <uhsf> s/si//
Jan 09 20:49:22 <apt> uhsf meant: why tangoGPS doesn't show my position?
Jan 09 20:49:37 <uhsf> :-)
Jan 09 20:49:48 <uhsf> you see what i meant
Jan 09 20:55:07 <Dave> Explosion.
Jan 09 20:56:06 <Dave> Boom!
Jan 09 20:56:45 <DocScrutinzrFlu> about time Dave. you're late today ;-)
Jan 09 20:56:50 <uhsf> please help me get my position from tangoGPS it's the last thing i want to set up then i'll leave you alone all week i promise
Jan 09 20:57:26 <Dave> fso-gpsd
Jan 09 20:57:30 <Dave> tangogps
Jan 09 20:57:34 <Dave> wait outside
Jan 09 20:57:42 <Dave> haha Joerg
Jan 09 20:57:42 <toggles_w> in the snow?
Jan 09 20:57:46 <Dave> anywhere
Jan 09 20:57:55 <balrog-kun> Extension.
Jan 09 20:58:07 <Elleo> also if you're using shr make sure you have initscripts-shr not initscripts
Jan 09 20:58:13 <Dave> Don't leave it outside unattended for a prolonged duration if it is  -25C
Jan 09 20:58:29 <toggles_w> i hate -25c
Jan 09 20:58:34 <uhsf> nvm, i just clicked the screen and it appeared somehow
Jan 09 20:58:41 <toggles_w> caught that up in sept illes, never again
Jan 09 20:58:51 <Dave> hahaha
Jan 09 20:58:51 <toggles_w> uhsf: fracken magic
Jan 09 20:58:56 <DocScrutinzrFlu> FR seems to have few problems other than WSOD
Jan 09 20:59:02 <Dave> I like making "illegal modifications" to my freerunner.
Jan 09 20:59:09 <Dave> Joerg, alas
Jan 09 20:59:27 <DocScrutinzrFlu> with -25 that is
Jan 09 20:59:38 <Dave> haha, yeah :P
Jan 09 20:59:43 <Dave> snap crackle pop
Jan 09 20:59:55 <Dave> and I'm not talking breakfast cereals here
Jan 09 20:59:56 <DocScrutinzrFlu> WSOD should be fixed in recent kernel
Jan 09 21:00:02 <Dave> really!?
Jan 09 21:00:06 <Dave> I don't believe.
Jan 09 21:00:28 * toggles_w praises the DocScrutinzrFlu, we will make a believer of the Dave
Jan 09 21:01:22 <uhsf> i have a great shr set up now, ty all for the help it was two beautiful days, see you all soon after the official shr release then maybe i'll decide to flash it on the nand for more challenge. have a nice week-end.
Jan 09 21:06:29 * Dave threatens toggles with his jumper cables
Jan 09 21:06:40 <Dave> I'll give you the Moko Torture
Jan 09 21:06:56 <doc|home> what's that? make him use it as his phone?
Jan 09 21:06:57 <doc|home> :)
Jan 09 21:07:06 <Dave> doc!
Jan 09 21:07:11 <doc|home> hey :)
Jan 09 21:07:11 <balrog-kun> that's evil!
Jan 09 21:07:14 <Dave> (the other one)
Jan 09 21:07:17 <Dave> Balrogkun >:)
Jan 09 21:07:20 <balrog-kun> how can you suggest something like this
Jan 09 21:07:23 <Dave> Muwahahahahahhaha
Jan 09 21:07:23 <doc|home> hah
Jan 09 21:07:25 <balrog-kun> inhumane
Jan 09 21:07:53 <Dave> Hey, I don't see it violating the Geneva Convention :p
Jan 09 21:07:56 <Dave> bwahahahaha
Jan 09 21:08:06 <Dave> go moko go!
Jan 09 21:10:03 <balrog-kun> i dunno
Jan 09 21:10:11 <henk> i fscked up the u-boot env, now i seem to have the defaultenv, how can i get a working nand u-boot again?
Jan 09 21:10:31 <balrog-kun> Dave: i though they have a paragraph on phone calls and echo there?
Jan 09 21:10:37 <balrog-kun> or they forgot to include that one
Jan 09 21:12:02 <badcloud> all settings are displayed 'unknown' in the gui?
Jan 09 21:12:08 <Dave> haha
Jan 09 21:12:13 <badcloud> (no gsm, to boot)
Jan 09 21:12:30 <Dave> :X
Jan 09 21:13:18 <DocScrutinzrFlu> balrog-kun: echo been fixed with patch announced here [20:41] <CIA-46> freesmartphone.org: ogsmd: [TI CALYPSO] resend the DSP command on every call setup.
Jan 09 21:13:20 <Slaxxer> reboot
Jan 09 21:14:02 <Dave> and J, what about #1024?
Jan 09 21:14:08 <Dave> What was the supposed fixx for that!?
Jan 09 21:14:17 <Dave> or is there none?
Jan 09 21:14:47 <badcloud> tried rebooting
Jan 09 21:15:02 <badcloud> last time I rebooted, only the gsm was 'unknown'
Jan 09 21:15:11 <badcloud> (meaning not working)
Jan 09 21:15:18 <badcloud> I think it might be an apm thing
Jan 09 21:15:25 <badcloud> but I didn't touch any settings
Jan 09 21:15:31 <DocScrutinzrFlu> Dave: #1024 still under investigation
Jan 09 21:15:58 <badcloud> hmmm, maybe it could be with the fso echo cancellation technique I implemented?
Jan 09 21:16:12 <Dave> Joerg, and WSOD?
Jan 09 21:16:21 <Dave> technique? o.O
Jan 09 21:16:24 <PaulFertser> DocScrutinzrFlu: no news at all about it? I think now you gained a capable EE for testing your ideas who can easily reproduce #1024, and that's good :)
Jan 09 21:16:24 <balrog-kun> DocScrutinzrFlu: i wasn't serious.. i knew they don't have this section in geneva convention :P
Jan 09 21:16:31 <Dave> :D
Jan 09 21:16:59 <DocScrutinzrFlu> but, as mentioned before (in the senseles sentence;) it's hard as this bugger is close to hw, and we have no source
Jan 09 21:17:12 <Dave> yeah :)
Jan 09 21:17:27 <Dave> I'd give you a pat on the back, Joerg, but I don't want your germs :)
Jan 09 21:18:20 <badcloud> ummm, http://lists.openmoko.org/nabble.html#nabble-td1486414|a1518726
Jan 09 21:18:57 <doc|home> so, what's closest to a usable distro for phone use these days? 
Jan 09 21:19:35 <Dave> :x
Jan 09 21:19:36 <DocScrutinzrFlu> well, I'll follow Werner's advice and get me some jaegermeister to kill the remaining germs ;-)
Jan 09 21:20:15 <PaulFertser> Good plan :)
Jan 09 21:20:28 <Dave> bleh :P
Jan 09 21:20:49 <DocScrutinzrFlu> badcloud: not polite to urge ppl to follow a link to know what u r talking bout
Jan 09 21:21:10 <badcloud> I wasn't urging, I was explaining what I did
Jan 09 21:21:10 <Dave> Aftermarket moko modifications!?
Jan 09 21:21:13 <DocScrutinzrFlu> (esp if theyre using a tablet)
Jan 09 21:21:20 <badcloud> which might have cancelled out gsm
Jan 09 21:21:26 <Dave> biomoko warfare!?
Jan 09 21:21:30 <badcloud> but I don't think that did it
Jan 09 21:21:42 <badcloud> I reverted back and still no gsm
Jan 09 21:21:48 <badcloud> argggg
Jan 09 21:21:49 <DocScrutinzrFlu> duh, what??
Jan 09 21:22:00 <badcloud> again
Jan 09 21:22:13 <badcloud> the link I posted was something I tried to cancel the echo
Jan 09 21:22:20 <badcloud> now I don't have gsm
Jan 09 21:22:23 <DocScrutinzrFlu> !h, the gsm-flashing story?
Jan 09 21:23:06 <DocScrutinzrFlu> *sigh*
Jan 09 21:23:12 <badcloud> what gsm-flashing story?
Jan 09 21:23:30 <johnsu01> In trying to build shr-testing, I'm getting a lot of messages like fatal: failed to unpack tree object d3b1136d29f88fa7bfcbedb6a195724e071cad77
Jan 09 21:24:11 <badcloud> ok, it's an ophonekitd seg fault
Jan 09 21:24:21 <Dave> D:
Jan 09 21:24:30 <DocScrutinzrFlu> "... new image... no buzz..." *siiighhh*
Jan 09 21:24:35 <DocScrutinzrFlu> :x
Jan 09 21:24:41 <Dave> bzzzzzzzzzt
Jan 09 21:24:42 <badcloud> what are you on about, Doc?
Jan 09 21:24:48 <Dave> s/about//
Jan 09 21:24:56 <Dave> ;D
Jan 09 21:25:09 <Dave> Presumably, medications, to make him better :)
Jan 09 21:25:16 <DocScrutinzrFlu> no JM yet :-(
Jan 09 21:25:26 <Dave> Aw
Jan 09 21:25:33 <DocScrutinzrFlu> gonna change that now. 
Jan 09 21:25:38 <Dave> okay
Jan 09 21:25:39 <badcloud> confound it, I don't know which file to replace...
Jan 09 21:27:24 <DocScrutinzrFlu> * DocScrutinzrFlu is now known as DocScrutinizer_buzz-cant-be-fixed-by-new-image
Jan 09 21:28:45 <almien> people use it as a phone? ;)
Jan 09 21:28:50 <henk> whats the default ip config for shr?
Jan 09 21:29:10 * almien had one for a year, not made a phone call yet...
Jan 09 21:32:06 <DocScrutinzrFlu> cya
Jan 09 21:32:28 <PaulFertser> :)
Jan 09 21:32:32 <almien> henk: 192.168.1.202?
Jan 09 21:32:50 <badcloud> anyone know where ophonekitd resides in the fs?
Jan 09 21:32:56 <badcloud> (shr)
Jan 09 21:33:45 <badcloud> to be more specific, it reports seg fault after Entering glib main loop
Jan 09 21:34:03 <badcloud> so maybe it's a component rather than the daemon
Jan 09 21:34:47 <henk> almien: ah, no 192.168.0.202, but it seems to not work at the first boot...
Jan 09 21:41:08 <Dave> ehh
Jan 09 21:43:57 <badcloud> man, tar -t | grep takes a *ckload of time
Jan 09 21:50:57 <lindi-> badcloud: of course since there is no index
Jan 09 21:52:14 <badcloud> makes sense
Jan 09 21:58:38 * toggles_w says Iiiiiiitt's BEEEER:30!!!!
Jan 09 21:58:45 <Tm_T> ok
Jan 09 21:59:44 * toggles_w hands Tm_T a beer
Jan 09 22:00:10 <Tm_T> no thank you
Jan 09 22:00:49 <Tm_T> unless it's non-alcoholic
Jan 09 22:01:25 <toggles_w> damn... so to you, linux is free as in ...?
Jan 09 22:01:36 <Tm_T> beer
Jan 09 22:01:41 <Tm_T> no no, as in freedom
Jan 09 22:02:08 <toggles_w> hmm.. 
Jan 09 22:08:43 <almien> free as in Vores Øl ?
Jan 09 22:12:23 <Dave> BEERS?
Jan 09 22:12:32 <azaghal> What? Where?
Jan 09 22:12:36 <azaghal> Free?
Jan 09 22:27:49 <Dave> THE BEAGLEBOARD IS SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO CUTE
Jan 09 22:28:02 <Dave> or so says my girl :p
Jan 09 22:28:08 <Tm_T> ok
Jan 09 22:28:13 <badcloud> isn't it?
Jan 09 22:28:24 <Dave> It is nice, especially some of the nice third-party cases
Jan 09 22:28:29 <badcloud> makes me wanna chuck the FR and get one
Jan 09 22:28:38 <Dave> hehahaa
Jan 09 22:28:40 <badcloud> haven't seen any cases
Jan 09 22:28:42 <Dave> maybe it could make calls better
Jan 09 22:28:43 <Dave> :P
Jan 09 22:28:49 <badcloud> probably...
Jan 09 22:28:51 * Dave smirks at Joerg
Jan 09 22:28:55 <holycow> what is beagleboard?
Jan 09 22:29:09 <SpeedEvil> beagleboard.com
Jan 09 22:29:14 <holycow> doh!
Jan 09 22:29:18 <SpeedEvil> it's a small linux box
Jan 09 22:29:23 <SpeedEvil> like the 
Jan 09 22:29:31 <SpeedEvil> phone PCB
Jan 09 22:29:42 <holycow> oh aha!
Jan 09 22:29:43 <SpeedEvil> but with a more powerful processor, and no phone stuff
Jan 09 22:29:45 <holycow> iiiinteresting
Jan 09 22:30:16 <holycow> oh wow so you could like add a thumb kb to it and an lcd and hac up a case and go
Jan 09 22:30:17 <holycow> neato
Jan 09 22:30:51 <holycow> could run debian on that i'm sure
Jan 09 22:34:56 <johnsu01> Why does wiki.openmoko.org log me out in a matter of minutes? It's making editing unnecessarily difficult..
Jan 09 22:35:49 <Dave> holycow yeah :D
Jan 09 22:35:51 <Dave> it's awesome
Jan 09 22:35:57 <Dave> I wonder how it compares to the pandora
Jan 09 22:36:30 <holycow> does anyone know if thumb keyboards can be bought separately for something like this?
Jan 09 22:36:56 <Dave> Probably 
Jan 09 22:36:59 <Dave> That's a good question though
Jan 09 22:37:04 <Dave> Now I'm interested :)
Jan 09 22:37:13 <holycow> thats what it comes down to for me
Jan 09 22:37:24 <Dave> :)
Jan 09 22:37:28 <holycow> i can rig up lcd whatever to these and mount them on any hackings ugly thing
Jan 09 22:37:32 <holycow> i don't care about the case
Jan 09 22:37:44 <holycow> the kb though ... i've always wanted one for something like this
Jan 09 22:38:34 <holycow> although, i just pictured my self trying to bring this through an airport with a case all duct taped together
Jan 09 22:38:45 <holycow> no better way to get your self cavity searched
Jan 09 22:38:47 <holycow> lol
Jan 09 22:39:21 <holycow> oh 256mb nand flash memory + 128mb ram
Jan 09 22:39:32 <holycow> so you would haveto be very judicious in the software you ran on it
Jan 09 22:39:52 <holycow> lol, you can plug it into a 17" monitor
Jan 09 22:39:53 <holycow> lol
Jan 09 22:40:09 <holycow> add a laptop hd and a good battery system and you are laughing
Jan 09 22:40:32 <Dave> hahaha
Jan 09 22:41:13 <holycow> they have debian and ubuntu already on this thing
Jan 09 22:41:13 <Dave> holycow, either that, or caught and detained for questioning as a possible terrorist, when traveling at an airport with that thing :)
Jan 09 22:41:14 <holycow> lol
Jan 09 22:41:21 <Dave> yeah, it's sweet, right?
Jan 09 22:41:22 <holycow> hehe
Jan 09 22:41:27 <holycow> dude, thats killer
Jan 09 22:42:24 <Dave> :D
Jan 09 22:43:12 <holycow> the usb power on this arm makes sense
Jan 09 22:43:24 <holycow> i don't think you can power an atom with usb
Jan 09 22:45:41 <holycow> these things can have daughter cards?
Jan 09 22:45:42 <holycow> what?
Jan 09 22:45:49 <holycow> Dave: check out page 107 of the manual
Jan 09 22:46:04 <Dave> :o
Jan 09 22:47:01 <holycow> Dave: have you looked at the pc104 stuff recently?
Jan 09 22:47:04 <holycow> i haven't 
Jan 09 22:47:08 <Dave> nope
Jan 09 22:47:11 <Dave> I am now :)
Jan 09 22:47:12 <holycow> i looked at that about 2 or 3 years ago
Jan 09 22:47:18 <holycow> probably they have tons of new options
Jan 09 22:47:23 <holycow> maybe even with atom cpus i bet
Jan 09 22:47:34 <SpeedEvil> atom is irrelevant
Jan 09 22:47:44 <SpeedEvil> until intel comes up with a sub 1W chipset
Jan 09 22:47:55 <SpeedEvil> or more sanely, a sub 1W CPU and chipset
Jan 09 22:48:15 <holycow> true, i only bring up atom as i want to be able to run desktop apps on iphone / gphone style devices
Jan 09 22:48:33 <Dave> woot
Jan 09 22:48:59 <Dave> heh
Jan 09 22:49:05 <Dave> woot, daughterboards
Jan 09 22:49:06 <Dave> :p
Jan 09 22:49:35 * SpeedEvil wonders what happens if you plug two daugterboards together.
Jan 09 22:49:51 <leinir> ...universe implodes? ;)
Jan 09 22:49:53 <holycow> iLesbian
Jan 09 22:51:02 <SpeedEvil> When intel and mobiles come together. http://fukung.net/v/5559/giraffe_vs_plane.jpg
Jan 09 22:51:18 <holycow> hehehe
Jan 09 22:51:32 <holycow> its really an issue with x86 architecture right?
Jan 09 22:51:33 <Dave> haha
Jan 09 22:51:51 <Dave> holyraster
Jan 09 22:51:52 <SpeedEvil> holycow: basically 
Jan 09 22:52:18 <SpeedEvil> holycow: i86 decoding and execution uses a lot of transistors, due to the legacy compatibility and stuff.
Jan 09 22:53:01 <holycow> SpeedEvil: question ... so when i look at an arm 600mhz cpu ... how can i tell just 'what' you can run on it
Jan 09 22:53:09 <SpeedEvil> Well...
Jan 09 22:53:12 <holycow> obviously the graphics subsystem is the key so  ...
Jan 09 22:53:23 <SpeedEvil> holycow: First, benchmarks.
Jan 09 22:53:26 <holycow> this thing looks like it can handle basid ogl stuff which is good enough 
Jan 09 22:53:33 <SpeedEvil> holycow: however, in the absence of that.
Jan 09 22:53:47 <holycow> yep?
Jan 09 22:54:08 <SpeedEvil> holycow: you might consider it as say as fast as a fast 300MHz processor.
Jan 09 22:54:18 <holycow> oh okay 
Jan 09 22:54:29 <holycow> thats not too bad
Jan 09 22:54:37 <cb22> depressing :( they need to make a 4.8ghz arm processor
Jan 09 22:54:39 <SpeedEvil> holycow: assuming you're not emulating FPU, or using MMX on the 300MHz processor
Jan 09 22:54:47 <holycow> as long as one isnt editing 40 meg jpg or odt files you should be okay
Jan 09 22:54:48 <SpeedEvil> cb22_: Oh - though you
Jan 09 22:54:49 <Dave> :O
Jan 09 22:54:54 <holycow> SpeedEvil: right
Jan 09 22:54:55 <Dave> hah
Jan 09 22:55:15 <cb22> SpeedEvil, "though you"?
Jan 09 22:55:18 <SpeedEvil> ve probably fo0rgotten, my earlier networking problem was due to having two default gateways setup, one incorrect
Jan 09 22:55:37 <cb22> ah
Jan 09 22:55:39 * SpeedEvil has no clue why it worked at all for some sites.
Jan 09 22:56:03 <Dave> random
Jan 09 22:56:08 <cb22> SpeedEvil, heh, check http://thedailywtf.com/Articles/A-Hatchet-Job.aspx
Jan 09 22:56:10 * raster giggles @ atom
Jan 09 22:56:29 <SpeedEvil> Atom would be quite interesting.
Jan 09 22:56:32 * raster giggles at everyone getting all oooh-aaah about atom
Jan 09 22:56:41 <SpeedEvil> If the 'under 1W' figure was for the whole system.
Jan 09 22:56:45 <raster> SpeedEvil: dunno. i dont want all the legacy crud
Jan 09 22:56:50 <Dave> :p
Jan 09 22:56:50 <SpeedEvil> CPU +chipset
Jan 09 22:56:56 * Dave giggles at raster
Jan 09 22:57:02 <SpeedEvil> raster: I don't care, if they make it work.
Jan 09 22:57:03 * cb22 giggles
Jan 09 22:57:05 <raster> my beagleboard is matching my via mini-itx @ 1ghz
Jan 09 22:57:13 * cb22 takes the vodka away from #openmoko
Jan 09 22:57:18 <raster> at a tiny fraction of the power consumption
Jan 09 22:57:24 <holycow> it just doesn't seem to me like they could get greater than 1ghz type of performance if the description of x86 are anything to go by
Jan 09 22:57:25 <Dave> aw
Jan 09 22:57:28 <raster> no heatsinks or fans
Jan 09 22:57:52 <SpeedEvil> holycow: as raster says, there is a vast difference in performance between 'ARM' chips. cache, pipelining, ...
Jan 09 22:57:57 <raster> and the architecture is so much cleaner
Jan 09 22:57:59 <holycow> 1ghz is the rough transition point on an x86 scale of where desktop apps start to hit 80% of everyones needs
Jan 09 22:58:12 <cb22> raster, how much power does that beagleboard use?
Jan 09 22:58:30 <raster> cb22: the entire thng is under 2w
Jan 09 22:58:38 <raster> i believe
Jan 09 22:58:50 <cb22> wow
Jan 09 22:58:56 <Dave> :)
Jan 09 22:59:01 <Dave> Raster, you get your pandora yet?
Jan 09 22:59:30 <holycow> raster: what do you mean the beagleboard is matching your via mini-itx @ 1ghz?
Jan 09 22:59:35 <holycow> overall performance?
Jan 09 22:59:41 <holycow> or just video decoding?
Jan 09 23:00:01 <raster> in fact the omap3530 is more pwoerful than the via
Jan 09 23:00:01 <cb22> one thing is for certain, it has more video bus bandwidth then the freerunner :p
Jan 09 23:00:02 <badcloud> ah, nothing says "I live alone" quite like a mouthfull of whipcream
Jan 09 23:00:07 <badcloud> out the can
Jan 09 23:00:16 <raster> as unliek the via which has gfx on a separate unichrome chip
Jan 09 23:00:24 <raster> its inside the cpu die on the omap3530
Jan 09 23:00:40 <DocScrutinzrFlu> [23:49] <SpeedEvil> holycow: i86 decoding and execution uses a lot of transistors, due to the legacy compatibility and stuff.
Jan 09 23:00:45 <raster> also you get a high-power dsp thrown in
Jan 09 23:00:51 <cb22> raster, if you could choose the processor for the next OM phone, what would you go with?
Jan 09 23:00:51 <DocScrutinzrFlu> duh, what??!?
Jan 09 23:00:55 <holycow> SpeedEvil: *nod*
Jan 09 23:00:57 <raster> holycow:  performance
Jan 09 23:01:00 <raster> holycow:  speed-wise
Jan 09 23:01:04 <holycow> huh
Jan 09 23:01:10 <raster> and its only @ 500mhz and memory is underclocked
Jan 09 23:01:15 * SpeedEvil votes for Z80.
Jan 09 23:01:21 <holycow> interesting
Jan 09 23:01:22 <raster> cb22:  omap3
Jan 09 23:01:29 <raster> this baby is FASt
Jan 09 23:01:30 <holycow> i'm going to buy one of those just to noodle around on
Jan 09 23:01:39 <raster> it's > 4x faster than the 2442 in the gta02
Jan 09 23:01:46 <raster> and its only 500mhz
Jan 09 23:01:46 <Wonka> aaah, btw... could someone make vala-terminal play some sound for a beep?
Jan 09 23:01:49 <cb22> and the s3c6xxx?
Jan 09 23:01:56 <DocScrutinzrFlu> SpeedEvil: z80 muahaha
Jan 09 23:01:58 <SpeedEvil> raster: for CPU only tasks?
Jan 09 23:02:05 <raster> missing dsp and advanced simd (neon)
Jan 09 23:02:09 <SpeedEvil> raster: or is that counting the graphics?
Jan 09 23:02:12 <raster> SpeedEvil:  for cpu heav-tasks
Jan 09 23:02:20 <raster> SpeedEvil:  software rendering for evas
Jan 09 23:02:25 <raster> so thats pretty cpu heavy
Jan 09 23:02:27 <raster> :)
Jan 09 23:02:32 <DocScrutinzrFlu> hifive raster
Jan 09 23:02:34 <SpeedEvil> raster: nice
Jan 09 23:02:42 <holycow> very interesting
Jan 09 23:02:51 <raster> i am thouroughly impressed with it
Jan 09 23:02:55 <SpeedEvil> '/me gors back to sleep.
Jan 09 23:02:58 <SpeedEvil> Night.
Jan 09 23:03:04 <holycow> is anyone pushing for arm architecture speedups beyond where they typically are now around 600mhz or so?
Jan 09 23:03:06 <raster> and its ascually rated for runingn at 600mhz with a 166mhz mem bus (ddr)
Jan 09 23:03:06 <cb22> cheers
Jan 09 23:03:15 <raster> its only at 500 & 133 at the moment
Jan 09 23:03:26 <raster> so theres a good 20% to be gained there
Jan 09 23:03:26 <DocScrutinzrFlu> mickeyl: true french dinner ;-)
Jan 09 23:03:35 <mickeyl> hehe
Jan 09 23:03:35 <raster> and.. i havent done any neon asm yet for evas for speedups
Jan 09 23:03:42 <raster> havent touched the 3d core
Jan 09 23:03:51 <raster> and havent poked the dsp
Jan 09 23:04:11 <raster> holycow: forget mhz - read the mhz myth
Jan 09 23:04:17 <raster> but yes peolpe do
Jan 09 23:04:22 <raster> one guy overclocked his 3530 ro 900
Jan 09 23:04:25 <holycow> okay
Jan 09 23:04:29 <holycow> will digg in 
Jan 09 23:04:34 <holycow> thx for the info guys
Jan 09 23:04:39 <raster> some of the arm cores from freescale and  from qualcomm go @ 1ghz
Jan 09 23:04:48 <raster> but it all depends on how much you can get done in 1 cycle
Jan 09 23:04:59 <raster> a lot of the time thnigs take "3" or "5" cycles
Jan 09 23:05:18 <raster> so 1ghz is useless  if everything takes 3x as many cycles as on a 500mhz chip
Jan 09 23:05:24 <raster> (of almost same arch)
Jan 09 23:05:42 <raster> from what i have seen from the neon at least is that man it has pipelining down to a fine art
Jan 09 23:05:52 <raster> 32x 64bit registers
Jan 09 23:06:15 <DocScrutinzrFlu> gnah, fsck ghz-mania! i wanna have decent cpufreq dynamic clock, with ZERO-delay from uW to full power and back
Jan 09 23:06:33 <Dave> holycow, aren't you glad I brought it up in the first place? :)
Jan 09 23:06:39 <holycow> hehe!
Jan 09 23:06:41 <holycow> yes!
Jan 09 23:06:56 <raster> omap also shoudl have powermanagement down-pat
Jan 09 23:06:58 <Dave> :)
Jan 09 23:06:59 <holycow> this channel is the best i've ever run into for getting info
Jan 09 23:07:00 <raster>  it can do 0-clock
Jan 09 23:07:09 <Dave> nice
Jan 09 23:07:26 <raster> u can forget about suspend/resume.. if u can zero-clock
Jan 09 23:07:34 <Dave> hot
Jan 09 23:07:42 <DocScrutinzrFlu> holycow: should join one of the monday om-hw-meetings. loool
Jan 09 23:07:51 <Dave> :D
Jan 09 23:07:55 <Dave> Joerg, am I invited?
Jan 09 23:07:59 <Dave> and do they serve food? :)
Jan 09 23:08:32 <PaulFertser> Why don't they all build nice long-running "netbooks" on ARM then? There're some concepts, but they're not mass production yet, it seems. Can it be it's only because of incompatibility with legacy programs? Raster, you always dissappoint me with a sad truth of life, do it another time, please ;)
Jan 09 23:08:37 <raster> it already handles cpufreq and multipel governors
Jan 09 23:08:52 <Dave> hah
Jan 09 23:08:55 <DocScrutinzrFlu> (food) useless, as you can't keep it ;-)
Jan 09 23:09:04 <Dave> bah
Jan 09 23:09:05 <Dave> :)
Jan 09 23:09:07 <holycow> well windows doesn't run on arm
Jan 09 23:09:19 <holycow> so i imagine thats the biggest issue
Jan 09 23:09:19 <PaulFertser> holycow: that's what i call legacy software.
Jan 09 23:09:21 <raster> http://www.celinux.org/elc08_presentations/TI_OMAP3430_Linux_PM_reference.ppt
Jan 09 23:09:30 <holycow> PaulFertser: hehehe
Jan 09 23:09:48 <Dave> haha
Jan 09 23:09:56 <Dave> Paul :P
Jan 09 23:10:06 <DocScrutinzrFlu> raster: wonder how long it will take us to push cpufreq
Jan 09 23:10:15 <raster> PaulFertser: because a lot of makers think you need x86 for windows
Jan 09 23:10:16 <Dave> forever and a day :(
Jan 09 23:10:22 <raster> also a lot have no experience with arm
Jan 09 23:10:25 <raster> its a different world
Jan 09 23:10:32 <raster> if you accept that all you need is linux
Jan 09 23:10:33 <Dave> yes...
Jan 09 23:10:42 <Dave> different
Jan 09 23:10:42 <DocScrutinzrFlu> suspend is a hoax, a BIG mistake
Jan 09 23:11:04 <Dave> false advertizing, false hopes, vaporware?
Jan 09 23:12:00 <raster> and you are willing to say "well fuck it - linux is fine" then ytou need your hw dept to grok arm
Jan 09 23:12:14 <raster> and they likely will resist from doing anyting that havent been doing for years
Jan 09 23:12:26 <Dave> true
Jan 09 23:12:30 <Dave> dinosaurs
Jan 09 23:12:42 <raster> it a new architecture
Jan 09 23:12:44 <raster> new software
Jan 09 23:12:45 <raster> new os
Jan 09 23:12:48 <raster> new everything
Jan 09 23:12:49 <Dave> A NEW DAY
Jan 09 23:12:54 <raster> but as such you will see netbooks with arm
Jan 09 23:12:56 <raster> and mips
Jan 09 23:12:58 * Dave reminisces about judgement day
Jan 09 23:13:02 <raster> they already exist
Jan 09 23:13:07 <raster> just not in mass market int he west
Jan 09 23:13:11 <Dave> THEY DO EXIST
Jan 09 23:13:12 <Dave> yeah
Jan 09 23:13:14 <raster> chinese makers are already pumping them out
Jan 09 23:13:19 <Dave> fuck yeah, CHina!
Jan 09 23:13:37 <DocScrutinzrFlu> fucking china
Jan 09 23:13:48 <Dave> hahahaha
Jan 09 23:13:50 <cb22> yeah fucking awesome china
Jan 09 23:13:58 <Dave> cheap china :P
Jan 09 23:13:59 <cb22> they're like chinese and shit
Jan 09 23:14:02 <cb22> yeah!
Jan 09 23:14:53 * PaulFertser is greatly dissatisfied with reality
Jan 09 23:15:01 <PaulFertser> raster: Thank you a lot again! :)
Jan 09 23:15:08 <DocScrutinzrFlu> we should dump linux central scheduler/dispatcher and set up a new cute embedded thing
Jan 09 23:15:49 <raster> PaulFertser: hahahaha
Jan 09 23:15:59 <holycow> raster: that is true.  we are switching to linux on the desktop but without experience on arm even i'm a bit reticent to try something new.  its funny how that works.  willing to try so i'm getting the beagle to play with
Jan 09 23:16:05 <holycow> lots of great stuff i learned about today
Jan 09 23:16:11 <raster> DocScrutinzrFlu: read that ppt from ti
Jan 09 23:16:26 <raster> turned off ticks (dynhz)
Jan 09 23:16:30 <holycow> yes there is a new netbook comming out with an arm that i read about recently
Jan 09 23:16:31 <DocScrutinzrFlu> *read* ppt? :D
Jan 09 23:16:32 <raster> have cpufreq going
Jan 09 23:16:55 <raster> and it will clokc up and down 125->250->500->550 
Jan 09 23:17:21 <raster> it spends 95% of its time in c7 powerstate too
Jan 09 23:17:22 <Kamping_Kaiser> <raster> PaulFertser: because a lot of makers think you need x86 for windows <- lemote are trying to get x86 instructions into their mipsel chips so 'doze can run on it
Jan 09 23:17:35 <DocScrutinzrFlu> raster: yup, basically its the most easy simple thing you can do with a SoC
Jan 09 23:18:21 <raster> look at the power conumption graph
Jan 09 23:18:27 <raster> on slide 3
Jan 09 23:18:36 <DocScrutinzrFlu> suspend is a rotten pragma for this use
Jan 09 23:18:43 <raster> Kamping_Kaiser: idiots :)
Jan 09 23:18:51 <Dave> :)
Jan 09 23:19:03 <raster> DocScrutinzrFlu: literally voltage and amp usage drosp to 0
Jan 09 23:19:05 <Kamping_Kaiser> raster, yeah :/
Jan 09 23:19:09 <Dave> WOW
Jan 09 23:19:10 <raster> between  "ticks"
Jan 09 23:19:24 <holycow> Kamping_Kaiser: where do i know you from? #debian?
Jan 09 23:19:25 <DocScrutinzrFlu> thats the way it should be
Jan 09 23:19:30 <uhsf> how to test/trigger the ringtone/vibration?
Jan 09 23:19:40 <raster> looks to be about 30ma @ 0.9v
Jan 09 23:19:44 <raster> when it wakes up
Jan 09 23:19:50 <Kamping_Kaiser> holycow, originally. we've bumped into each other around the traps though
Jan 09 23:19:59 <raster> which is5% of the time
Jan 09 23:20:11 <Dave> he's notorious
Jan 09 23:20:12 <Dave> :)
Jan 09 23:20:18 <holycow> lol well hi again
Jan 09 23:20:26 <DocScrutinzrFlu> duh, why 5%?
Jan 09 23:20:35 <raster> so as such thats an average power usage of 1.35mw
Jan 09 23:20:43 <raster> and thats NO SUSPEND
Jan 09 23:20:53 <holycow> http://www.pcworld.com/article/156309/freescale_chases_199_netbook_with_new_processor.html
Jan 09 23:20:57 <holycow> here is a netbook with arm
Jan 09 23:21:10 <raster> DocScrutinzrFlu:  thats probably wakeusp so powertop can poll system info
Jan 09 23:21:11 <holycow> with a decent hd it should be capable of some reasonable performance i guess
Jan 09 23:21:11 <raster> :)
Jan 09 23:21:15 <DocScrutinzrFlu> raster: we re on same page wrt that
Jan 09 23:21:19 <raster> see slide 3
Jan 09 23:21:20 <raster> :)
Jan 09 23:21:26 <PaulFertser> DocScrutinzrFlu: what kind of scheduler are you proposing? some real-time strategy? Those who need it can use Xenomai, RTAI or smth, can't they?
Jan 09 23:21:40 <raster> if u can get to 1.35w when idle
Jan 09 23:21:43 <raster> why suspend?
Jan 09 23:22:02 <DocScrutinzrFlu> uW
Jan 09 23:22:03 <raster> the 1200mah battery in the gta02
Jan 09 23:22:06 <raster> @3.7v
Jan 09 23:22:15 <leinir> Mmmm... nom ;)
Jan 09 23:22:54 <raster> would run that cpu (ignoring all other system power usage which would be the same regardless of soc) for 137 days
Jan 09 23:22:55 * Dave eats leinir
Jan 09 23:23:11 * leinir meeps!
Jan 09 23:23:11 <Dave> raster, daaaaaaaaaaaaaamn
Jan 09 23:23:13 <raster> DocScrutinzrFlu:  yeah. oops. meant mW
Jan 09 23:23:14 <raster> :)
Jan 09 23:23:18 <holycow> heh
Jan 09 23:23:19 <raster> Dave: so "why suspend"
Jan 09 23:23:25 <leinir> raster: That is pure nifty right there :)
Jan 09 23:23:25 <Dave> Why indeed :D
Jan 09 23:23:26 <raster> when you can get RUNTIME usage down to "0"
Jan 09 23:23:27 <DocScrutinzrFlu> yup, but sorry guys, got me quite some JM to cure my flu finally, the Almesberger method. so C u l8er
Jan 09 23:23:33 <Dave> ;)
Jan 09 23:23:41 <raster> just make sure your processes really go into an idle state
Jan 09 23:23:45 <Dave> Later Doc J
Jan 09 23:23:49 <raster> youc na force this with a kill -SITSTOP
Jan 09 23:23:50 <raster> err
Jan 09 23:23:55 <raster> SIGSTOP
Jan 09 23:24:03 <raster> to forcibly stop as many procs as u can
Jan 09 23:24:05 <uhsf> how to listen to the ringtone?
Jan 09 23:24:11 <raster> some procs of course cant do this
Jan 09 23:24:22 <holycow> oh, freescale is going to use a cortex-a8 arm which can scale up to 1ghz?
Jan 09 23:24:24 <raster> so you leave them run
Jan 09 23:24:33 <DocScrutinzrFlu> right, but a custom dispatcher would prolly do a better job even
Jan 09 23:24:39 <Kamping_Kaiser> holycow, nice. wonder if the bios/firmware is free or not
Jan 09 23:24:41 <holycow> i read the mhz myth comments :) just neat to read
Jan 09 23:24:41 <raster> but they are specially written/ensured that they dont poll or wake up more thn they have to
Jan 09 23:24:57 <raster> then go and shut down peripherals/devices you dont need when you dont need them
Jan 09 23:25:01 <raster> or set them to low-power mode
Jan 09 23:25:04 <Kamping_Kaiser> last year or so has started to make me think i might be able to not buy intel again (which excites me somewhat)
Jan 09 23:25:09 <Kamping_Kaiser> *not have to
Jan 09 23:25:10 <raster> and they'll interrupt you when something interesting happens
Jan 09 23:25:11 <holycow> Kamping_Kaiser: indeed ... especially if the bios is on a removable sd flash card ... lol
Jan 09 23:25:18 <Kamping_Kaiser> holycow, haha
Jan 09 23:25:21 <raster> as you never suspended.. you'll handle that interrupt instantly
Jan 09 23:25:23 <Dave> very nice :)
Jan 09 23:25:36 <raster> and if done right
Jan 09 23:25:50 <raster> you'd likely get an incredible battery life
Jan 09 23:26:01 <holycow> interesting
Jan 09 23:26:04 <raster> of course the 1.35mw usage of the cpu is tiny comapred to the gsm module
Jan 09 23:26:09 <badcloud> how's the suspend, wake on event and functions on resume status on a FR running on debian?
Jan 09 23:26:12 <raster> which will chew orders of magnitude more
Jan 09 23:26:15 <raster> same with wifi etc.
Jan 09 23:26:22 <raster> so things you MUST keep running
Jan 09 23:26:24 <DocScrutinzrFlu> raster: yup.  nobody seems to like it. as thers stupid suspend-paradgm all around for decades
Jan 09 23:26:38 <raster> will be your focus and how to make them go into the lowest power state while sitting idle
Jan 09 23:27:26 <raster> DocScrutinzrFlu:  i agree
Jan 09 23:27:29 <raster> ugly ugly ugly
Jan 09 23:28:12 * DocScrutinzrFlu waves
Jan 09 23:28:39 <raster> and then u have all the fine-tuning usage
Jan 09 23:28:51 <raster> you can keep the cpu mostly idle just loading data form disk while playing mp3's
Jan 09 23:28:52 <raster> or oggs
Jan 09 23:29:03 <raster> and clock the dsp to a really low clockrate and have the dsp decode audio
Jan 09 23:29:25 <raster> as per-watt its going to decode more mp3
Jan 09 23:29:33 <holycow> i think raster needs his own source of funding :)
Jan 09 23:29:38 <holycow> i'd buy anything you sell dude
Jan 09 23:29:39 <raster> so u'd end up with LOTs of music time
Jan 09 23:29:58 <leinir> *nods* nokia does that for media playback on maemo (their mantra is "use the DSP" ;) )
Jan 09 23:30:01 <raster> holycow: do i sound like a slimey salesman yet? :)
Jan 09 23:30:18 <holycow> lol! no no bro, you sound like a siive of info
Jan 09 23:30:24 <raster> holycow: i have been sceptical myself
Jan 09 23:30:27 <holycow> i'm afraid to ask for fear of getting an answer!
Jan 09 23:30:29 <holycow> lol
Jan 09 23:30:40 <raster> i'm almost always skeptical - history has taught me to be
Jan 09 23:30:43 <DocScrutinzrFlu> its like a vicious circle: need 1sec  to awake from suspend for cpu, so we cant service perif jit. so we need to suspend perif too... :-(
Jan 09 23:31:14 <raster> i do my homework. but once i'm convinced of something - chanes are i've been doing a large blob of research and i'm unlikely to be swayed from it :)
Jan 09 23:31:21 <uhsf> to be sure that the newly installed shr will ring when i receive a call i'd like to listen to the ringtone. how to listen to the ringtone?
Jan 09 23:31:27 <raster> holycow:  don't know everythnig mate
Jan 09 23:31:29 <raster> not everything
Jan 09 23:31:32 <raster> by a long shot
Jan 09 23:32:12 <raster> holycow: if you want to 7stir up some funding.. i'm all for it
Jan 09 23:32:13 <raster> :)
Jan 09 23:32:57 <holycow> hehehe
Jan 09 23:33:01 <holycow> oh man if i could ...
Jan 09 23:33:09 <holycow> i'd rewrite kde in lisp
Jan 09 23:33:11 <holycow> hehe
Jan 09 23:33:12 <holycow> kiddin
Jan 09 23:33:15 <raster> HAHAHAH
Jan 09 23:33:24 <Dave> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH
Jan 09 23:33:41 * Dave squishes holycow between two parentheses and crushes him
Jan 09 23:33:48 <holycow> i do think we live in the fukcing dark ages on the pc tho
Jan 09 23:33:51 <DocScrutinzrFlu> btw: they nmap'ed my N810 bat down during 5h on 25c3. thats ok, its just what i'd expect
Jan 09 23:33:54 <Dave> seriously :(
Jan 09 23:33:58 <Dave> where's my light processer
Jan 09 23:34:01 <holycow> whenever my pc boots i get to see that fugly bios nonsense
Jan 09 23:34:02 <raster> holycow:  well.. stick around :)
Jan 09 23:34:39 <holycow> i don't understand why bios companies cannot stick a linux kernel and some nice graphics stuff into the bootloader
Jan 09 23:34:50 <holycow> and still keep their stupid proprietary crap locked away
Jan 09 23:34:52 <Dave> hah
Jan 09 23:34:53 <holycow> but what do i know
Jan 09 23:34:55 <Dave> splash is flash
Jan 09 23:35:01 <raster> holycow:  heard of splashtop?
Jan 09 23:36:16 <holycow> back
Jan 09 23:36:22 * holycow googles
Jan 09 23:36:28 <holycow> sounds vaguely familiar
Jan 09 23:36:56 * DocScrutinzrFlu dreaming of a class-A amp 2KW, and my matrass lying on the subwoovers.
Jan 09 23:37:00 <holycow> oh is that the new stuff they are putting on some mobos?
Jan 09 23:37:12 <holycow> i doubt that still removes the fugly bios ugliness on bootup
Jan 09 23:37:15 <holycow> its just a lot faster now
Jan 09 23:37:30 <holycow> raster: good point indeed
Jan 09 23:37:45 <holycow> raster: any hints of any kind when that magic hardware you are wroking on comes to market?
Jan 09 23:37:47 <holycow> lol :)
Jan 09 23:37:51 <holycow> nm i know the answer to that
Jan 09 23:37:58 * PaulFertser just seen another stupid bios in a relatively new PC m/b that hangs hard on boot without a message because a usb flash stick is inserted.
Jan 09 23:38:13 <holycow> PaulFertser: lol what? crazy
Jan 09 23:38:23 <holycow> oh this splashtop stuff looks interesting
Jan 09 23:38:50 <Dave> :D
Jan 09 23:38:56 <raster> holycow: most of the bioses i have just pop up a single splash image and otherwise display nothing
Jan 09 23:39:01 <raster> otr have an option for that
Jan 09 23:39:04 <holycow> splashtop.com for thos wondering
Jan 09 23:39:04 <Dave> haha, we're breaking your techie ass in tonight it seems, holycow ;)
Jan 09 23:39:06 <Dave> and you like it :D
Jan 09 23:39:07 <PaulFertser> holycow: i've seen that too times actually on different motherboards. I once forgot to take out my stick from a lab PC. It took us like 10 minutes to get what's changed and why it can't boot anymore :)
Jan 09 23:39:29 <Dave> haw
Jan 09 23:39:33 <holycow> heh
Jan 09 23:39:37 <Dave> coco coco
Jan 09 23:40:03 <holycow> this splashtop idea is very interesting ... one thought might be to load the real os in the background and somehow 'magically' hand over control to it when its done loading
Jan 09 23:40:40 <holycow> so kind of like 'i need more power, boot the real os' and just wait until its done, but until then you just surf the web or whatnot
Jan 09 23:40:42 <holycow> neat
Jan 09 23:40:53 <Dave> hah
Jan 09 23:41:05 <Dave> raster, is your bb up and running?
Jan 09 23:41:11 <raster> yup
Jan 09 23:41:20 <raster> http://www.rasterman.com/'
Jan 09 23:41:22 <PaulFertser> holycow: too complex for my liking. I'd prefer corebios.
Jan 09 23:41:22 <raster> http://www.rasterman.com/
Jan 09 23:41:30 <raster> how do u think i have those numbers?
Jan 09 23:41:31 <raster> :)
Jan 09 23:41:49 <lindi-> PaulFertser: isn't it coreboot?
Jan 09 23:41:55 <Dave> heh
Jan 09 23:41:57 <Dave> ;D
Jan 09 23:42:02 <holycow> well coreboot is what probably loads this up
Jan 09 23:42:04 <PaulFertser> lindi-: oh, yes. I mixed it with linuxbios or something ;)
Jan 09 23:42:14 <Dave> OH and raster, I didnn't see, did you get your pandora yet?
Jan 09 23:42:28 <holycow> splashbios is just a deployment image for coreboot ... they could deploy anything
Jan 09 23:42:30 <PaulFertser> lindi-: 2:42am here :p
Jan 09 23:43:03 <PaulFertser> holycow: but you're talking about using a hypervisor and do something while "a real OS" is loading and so on...
Jan 09 23:43:12 <PaulFertser> holycow: Anyway, how often do you reload your PC ;)
Jan 09 23:44:21 <holycow> PaulFertser: lol good point ... i'm looking at my annoying ubuntu reminder thing that i have a new kernel ... *ahem*
Jan 09 23:44:23 <holycow> hehe
Jan 09 23:44:33 <raster> Dave:  no.
Jan 09 23:44:37 <raster> no panny still
Jan 09 23:44:51 <Dave> damn
Jan 09 23:44:58 <Dave> I await it's integration into your gang :)
Jan 09 23:45:10 <Dave> I'd like to see some comparisons between the bb and the panny
Jan 09 23:45:21 <DocScrutinzrFlu> pheeew, so nevermind i didnt pay mine yet
Jan 09 23:45:39 <Dave> :x
Jan 09 23:45:56 <DocScrutinzrFlu> n8 gnutoo
Jan 09 23:45:58 * holycow imagines that freescale i.mx515 arm processor in a moko
Jan 09 23:46:04 <raster> Dave:  they are the same thing
Jan 09 23:46:07 <holycow> the funny thing about that product is that its only a form factor
Jan 09 23:46:11 <raster> pannmy tho should have a lot mroe attached
Jan 09 23:46:16 <raster> like wifi, kbd, screen etc.
Jan 09 23:46:18 <holycow> there is no reason all of that cannot be made available on the moko
Jan 09 23:46:36 <Dave> still
Jan 09 23:46:53 <raster> holycow: none
Jan 09 23:46:58 <raster> but om isnt using it
Jan 09 23:47:03 <DocScrutinzrFlu> there IS reason: nobody wants to pay R&D
Jan 09 23:47:03 <raster> thats their decision
Jan 09 23:47:28 <Dave> Joerg, if you haven't noticed... we ARE the R&D :P
Jan 09 23:47:36 <holycow> lol
Jan 09 23:47:40 <DocScrutinzrFlu> lol
Jan 09 23:48:00 <DocScrutinzrFlu> not even me is, it seems
Jan 09 23:48:02 <holycow> well they will get a few rounds to make some more efficient choices
Jan 09 23:48:18 <holycow> lets see what happens
Jan 09 23:48:30 <Dave> one can only hope
Jan 09 23:48:43 <Dave> GTA04 to feature DUAL GLAMOs
Jan 09 23:48:44 <holycow> man i thought we wer going to haveto wait 10 years to seen desktop style power on a celphone
Jan 09 23:48:45 <holycow> its already here
Jan 09 23:48:47 <holycow> damn
Jan 09 23:48:59 <cb22> Dave, OMG 14mbps!!!!
Jan 09 23:49:06 <DocScrutinzrFlu> but Dave, in the end youre so damn right it isnt a joke anymore
Jan 09 23:49:09 <Dave> hahaha
Jan 09 23:49:15 <cb22> thats, like, faster then USB1!!
Jan 09 23:49:24 <Dave> yeah, I know. and that's what's sad :(
Jan 09 23:50:08 * DocScrutinzrFlu wipes away a tear and wispers "night"
Jan 09 23:50:16 <raster> well om doesnt want to throw away their work on gta02
Jan 09 23:50:19 <raster> so re-use as much as possible
Jan 09 23:50:28 <raster> DocScrutinzrFlu:  schlafen?
Jan 09 23:50:29 <DocScrutinzrFlu> loool
Jan 09 23:50:34 <cb22> raster, aren't they using the s3c6400 for gta03?
Jan 09 23:50:36 <DocScrutinzrFlu> yup
Jan 09 23:50:49 <DocScrutinzrFlu> 6410
Jan 09 23:50:56 <raster> cb22:  yes.
Jan 09 23:51:07 <cb22> raster, whats your opinion on that processor?
Jan 09 23:51:09 <raster> (well 6410 - same series, same mins, same drivers)
Jan 09 23:51:10 <raster> err pins
Jan 09 23:51:16 <raster> cb22: pretty decent
Jan 09 23:51:24 <raster> but... the omap3 i think has it beat
Jan 09 23:51:39 <raster> the omap3 is faster per-clock by a fair bit
Jan 09 23:51:50 <DocScrutinzrFlu> we can build crap even with a cray cpu
Jan 09 23:51:55 <raster> they are probably on par 3d-gfx wsie
Jan 09 23:51:59 <DocScrutinzrFlu> ;-)
Jan 09 23:52:01 <raster> tho 6410 may have more chance of open 3d drivers
Jan 09 23:52:18 <raster> the omap has a better simd (mmx/sse) unix (neon) by far
Jan 09 23:52:19 <cb22> DocScrutinzrFlu, at least with a cray you have enough video bandwidth to play 640x480 @ 30fps =)
Jan 09 23:52:20 <Dave> Hey, OM's been doing it for a couple years now, right? ;)
Jan 09 23:52:23 * Dave cringes at Joerg
Jan 09 23:52:29 <raster> and the omap also has a dsp and by far better power management
Jan 09 23:52:49 <holycow> oh jesus :0
Jan 09 23:52:51 <holycow> :)
Jan 09 23:52:51 <DocScrutinzrFlu> cb22: sure????
Jan 09 23:53:18 <DocScrutinzrFlu> we could hook up video by I2C
Jan 09 23:54:24 <PaulFertser> DocScrutinzrFlu: your today's insights are amazing, lol :)
Jan 09 23:54:28 <DocScrutinzrFlu> or use a CR2032 for battery
Jan 09 23:54:36 <Dave> HDMI FREERUNNER?
Jan 09 23:55:06 <morricone> I vote for DisplayPort
Jan 09 23:55:09 <morricone> no fees
Jan 09 23:55:33 <DocScrutinzrFlu> PaulFertser: sorry, seen my room's ceiling for 9days now. prolly getting sarcastic
Jan 09 23:55:38 <holycow> i think that we missed the boat just a weeee bit
Jan 09 23:55:53 <holycow> there were a few posts at the beginning of the lists about gaming on the moko
Jan 09 23:56:01 <holycow> and the iphone seems to be really proving that point
Jan 09 23:56:13 <Dave> mooooooooooooo
Jan 09 23:56:15 <PaulFertser> DocScrutinzrFlu: 9 days ... That's bad. I hope your tempreture is at least near to norm now?
Jan 09 23:56:26 <DocScrutinzrFlu> heard theres even duke nukem now
Jan 09 23:56:41 <DocScrutinzrFlu> right now yes
Jan 09 23:56:44 <holycow> if anything i thinkt thats still something that can be done, but a decent core interface plus an infrastructure to sell apps through would be needed
Jan 09 23:56:47 <DocScrutinzrFlu> id guess
Jan 09 23:57:15 <holycow> but that also qualifies as backseat coder kind of comment :) i'm not responsible for making sure everyone is paid over there so ... heh
Jan 09 23:57:57 <holycow> raster: may i ask if we are going to hear some sort of announcement in 09 or 10?
Jan 09 23:57:59 <holycow> :)
Jan 09 23:58:14 <raster> ?
Jan 09 23:58:17 <raster> about what?
Jan 09 23:58:45 <holycow> well you are working on some low power technology ... you keep on hinting at it minus nda stripping out usefull info 
Jan 09 23:58:53 <DocScrutinzrFlu> another zappa quote: got me three beers and a couple of down's, now i gonna get stiff, so f... U clowns
Jan 09 23:58:55 <holycow> i'm just curious if there is a product i should be waiting for an when
Jan 09 23:58:57 <holycow> :)
Jan 09 23:59:06 <raster> la la la
Jan 09 23:59:07 <raster> :)
Jan 09 23:59:20 <holycow> lol
Jan 09 23:59:33 <holycow> ah man, suspense is killing me.  okay i can wait.  i think.
Jan 10 00:00:12 <raster> wait and see
Jan 10 00:02:41 <DocScrutinzrFlu> (i want my titties and i want my beer, so you just barf it back up, devil! do you hear?!)
Jan 10 00:03:54 <cb22> capacitive touch screen for gta03? :D
Jan 10 00:04:25 <Dave> :D
Jan 10 00:04:34 <Dave> haha poor joerg
Jan 10 00:04:38 <Dave> cb22, go fish
Jan 10 00:04:56 <cb22> Dave, huh? http://lists.openmoko.org/nabble.html#nabble-td1690756|a1690756
Jan 10 00:05:00 <raster> holycow: let it suspend you for a bit longer
Jan 10 00:05:01 <raster> :)
Jan 10 00:05:19 <DocScrutinzrFlu> Dave: dont  you ever mess with grandmaster Zappa! ;)
Jan 10 00:05:25 <Dave> :D
Jan 10 00:05:28 <Dave> hehehe
Jan 10 00:06:44 <DocScrutinzrFlu> i'm a poor guy just because I miss all of those devine records, plus a 2KW stereo
Jan 10 00:11:12 <Dave> :)
Jan 10 00:11:13 <Dave> sweet
Jan 10 00:12:21 <CIA-46> freesmartphone.org: 03mickey 07fso-monitord * r6c46ef922b51 10/src/obj.vala: 
Jan 10 00:12:21 <CIA-46> freesmartphone.org: project on hold until signals with complex types work :/
Jan 10 00:12:21 <CIA-46> freesmartphone.org: See http://mail.gnome.org/archives/vala-list/2009-January/msg00033.html
Jan 10 00:14:01 <holycow> raster: hehehe :)
Jan 10 00:14:15 <holycow> i don't mind, it's best not to tell me anything
Jan 10 00:14:23 <holycow> i'm horrible with keeping info
Jan 10 00:14:47 <holycow> my dream for the company here is for everyone to have a linux desktop on their smartphone basically
Jan 10 00:14:57 <holycow> with some usb ports on it and a video out
Jan 10 00:15:13 <holycow> so when they are on the road the use the phone app and some message apps and such
Jan 10 00:15:22 <holycow> and at the office they plug in a moni and kb and go
Jan 10 00:15:42 <holycow> and the office apps are pretty basic.  webstuff, open office, some video things like that
Jan 10 00:15:56 <holycow> i can just tell we are about to cross that line
Jan 10 00:16:03 <raster> holycow: the problem is - that makes phones BIG
Jan 10 00:16:07 <raster> to add all the ports
Jan 10 00:16:39 <holycow> yeah it does, i could be wishing for too much
Jan 10 00:17:26 <cb22> a usb 2 port could solve all of that
Jan 10 00:17:37 <cb22> you can pretty much do anything over it
Jan 10 00:17:41 <holycow> you mean usb3
Jan 10 00:17:51 <holycow> beagleboard is awfully close to this too
Jan 10 00:18:00 * SpeedEvil stabs holycow, and the USB3 standards committee.
Jan 10 00:18:05 <holycow> with usb3 y ou might be able to do video over it, yes?
Jan 10 00:18:14 <cb22> usb2 can handle video just fine
Jan 10 00:18:26 <holycow> really?
Jan 10 00:18:34 <holycow> oh neat one more thing to google.
Jan 10 00:18:40 <cb22> theres over 10 glamo's worth of bandwidth there ;)
Jan 10 00:18:42 * SpeedEvil has some issues with USB3.
Jan 10 00:18:47 <cb22> SpeedEvil, such as?
Jan 10 00:18:54 <cb22> and i thought you were going to sleep? :p
Jan 10 00:18:57 <holycow> heh right, such as?
Jan 10 00:18:59 <holycow> :)
Jan 10 00:19:01 <SpeedEvil> cb22_: The connector are deeply stupid.
Jan 10 00:19:14 <SpeedEvil> cb22_: the mini ones especially.
Jan 10 00:19:25 <holycow> cb22 our users would expect 102x768 for most applications
Jan 10 00:19:26 <SpeedEvil> cb22_: they are doing it wrong.
Jan 10 00:19:30 <holycow> none of them can see greater resolution
Jan 10 00:19:50 <holycow> so maybe usb 2.0 might be able to handle it ... i've never looked into it
Jan 10 00:19:52 <SpeedEvil> cb22_: putting the complexity in the cable - not the silicon - going for 2 pairs each way, not 1 pair.
Jan 10 00:20:13 <SpeedEvil> cb22_: extra wires are bad - from a flexibility and durability POV.
Jan 10 00:20:22 <Sharwin_F> Is there any app to manage text messages and contacts from the PC? Wammu?
Jan 10 00:20:24 <cb22> SpeedEvil, i see what you mean
Jan 10 00:20:41 <SpeedEvil> cb22_: and they haven't addressed properly the use of it for providing power at >5W or so.
Jan 10 00:20:52 <holycow> interesting, didn't think about that
Jan 10 00:22:05 <SpeedEvil> cb22_: silicon gets more complex and capable and cheaper as time goes on. Fragile and hard to dock connectors don't get easier.
Jan 10 00:22:26 <SpeedEvil> (And I woke up again - toothache)
Jan 10 00:22:47 <cb22> heh, ouch
Jan 10 00:23:01 <SpeedEvil> And that's another thing that's hard to do right with all the stock USB connectors.
Jan 10 00:23:04 <SpeedEvil> A dock.
Jan 10 00:23:11 <eolson> hmm, so toothache => get lots of work done (no sleep)
Jan 10 00:23:35 <SpeedEvil> You need to aim the connectors to within about a quarter of a mm in order to have it not hang up when it's inserted
Jan 10 00:23:49 <raster> holycow:  as such the bb happily displays 1024x768
Jan 10 00:23:53 <raster> withotu flinching
Jan 10 00:24:01 <raster> i know koen was driving it at 1600x1200
Jan 10 00:24:06 <raster> on the dvi out on the bb
Jan 10 00:24:11 <raster> its perfectly capable
Jan 10 00:24:24 <raster> but what u probably want is some kind of breakout hub/base station
Jan 10 00:24:34 <raster> where you normally have a phone ui
Jan 10 00:24:42 <raster> (smalls crteen style) on 1 screen
Jan 10 00:24:54 <holycow> really?
Jan 10 00:24:55 <raster> and *IF* u plug in the base station you get a second fb at 1024x768
Jan 10 00:24:56 <holycow> wow
Jan 10 00:24:57 <raster> in "desktop mode"
Jan 10 00:25:11 <raster> as such technically al u need to do is run the lcd controller lines out there
Jan 10 00:25:15 <raster> on the extension connector
Jan 10 00:25:31 <raster> and put the same lcd->hdmi chip on the basetattion
Jan 10 00:25:37 <raster> as well as put in a powered usb hub
Jan 10 00:25:43 <holycow> huh
Jan 10 00:25:44 <raster> so u can plug in kbd and mouse
Jan 10 00:25:49 <raster> presto
Jan 10 00:25:51 <holycow> yes right
Jan 10 00:25:59 <raster> just plug in kbd,. mouse and monitor
Jan 10 00:26:10 <holycow> wow
Jan 10 00:26:11 <raster> and the phone can run a "desktop" when plugged in
Jan 10 00:26:24 <SpeedEvil> Meh. Plugin?
Jan 10 00:26:27 <raster> the omap3 has multiple screen out support from memory
Jan 10 00:26:27 <SpeedEvil> Bluetooth!
Jan 10 00:26:31 <raster> even if not
Jan 10 00:26:35 <holycow> man my box here just seems more ancinet the more chat goes on here
Jan 10 00:26:43 <raster> u can turn the on-phone lcd offan dredirect to the external
Jan 10 00:27:04 <raster> SpeedEvil:  the bt versions of wireless kbds etc. generally cost an extra $100-150
Jan 10 00:27:04 <holycow> and totally doable with current technology
Jan 10 00:27:08 <raster> usb ius cheap
Jan 10 00:27:17 <raster> u need the breakout for screen anyway
Jan 10 00:27:19 <SpeedEvil> raster: yeah, I know :/
Jan 10 00:27:22 <raster> throwing in the usb hub is "meh"
Jan 10 00:27:27 <SpeedEvil> raster: bluetooth keyb!
Jan 10 00:27:32 <SpeedEvil> raster: bluetooth screen!
Jan 10 00:27:33 <holycow> the hub we wouldn't blink about at all
Jan 10 00:27:34 <SpeedEvil> I mean
Jan 10 00:27:36 <raster> hahaha
Jan 10 00:27:47 <CIA-46> freesmartphone.org: 03root 07gsm0710muxd * r58b581a6a818 10/ (ChangeLog src/gsm0710muxd.c): 
Jan 10 00:27:47 <CIA-46> freesmartphone.org: Implement write buffering for the ptys
Jan 10 00:27:47 <CIA-46> freesmartphone.org: If the receiving side of the pty is slow, the kernel pty buffer (of 4096
Jan 10 00:27:47 <CIA-46> freesmartphone.org: bytes) overflows and an unreported lossage occurs. This can be seen when
Jan 10 00:27:48 <CIA-46> freesmartphone.org: receiving a large SIM phonebook with busy frameworkd.
Jan 10 00:27:57 <SpeedEvil> That's actually one of my projects - BNEP VNC screen.
Jan 10 00:27:58 <holycow> raster: we would probably buy things like that in bulk, like 20 units at a time
Jan 10 00:28:01 <raster> also the usb hub means u can have mass-storage (sonme usb hdd;'s) for storign your big fat media
Jan 10 00:28:04 <raster> etc.
Jan 10 00:28:05 <holycow> i'd replace most of my 150 desktops with such a unit
Jan 10 00:28:11 <raster> usb ethernet for conencting to company lan
Jan 10 00:28:21 <raster> (when the company is so paranoid they wont touch wifi)
Jan 10 00:28:29 <lindi-> SpeedEvil: gadgetfs keyboard would be useful
Jan 10 00:28:32 <holycow> our mass storage would be a remote sshfs mount over vpn
Jan 10 00:28:33 <holycow> lol
Jan 10 00:28:37 <holycow> but thats a whole other thing
Jan 10 00:28:50 <raster> moot really
Jan 10 00:28:52 <cb22> holycow, ssh over a vpn?
Jan 10 00:28:54 <raster> but phone could double as desktop
Jan 10 00:28:57 <cb22> tad wasteful
Jan 10 00:29:05 <raster> if you need to go somewhere
Jan 10 00:29:09 <raster> just pick up phone and go
Jan 10 00:29:12 <raster> ddont "Sync"
Jan 10 00:29:17 <holycow> cb22 yes it is
Jan 10 00:29:19 <raster> all you need is already there
Jan 10 00:29:22 <raster> all the same apps
Jan 10 00:29:29 * SpeedEvil wishes contactless had a deployed widespread standard.
Jan 10 00:29:42 * SpeedEvil wants his phone to open doors and stuff.
Jan 10 00:30:00 <holycow> raster: you just described perfectly what we want
Jan 10 00:30:00 <SpeedEvil> Or alternatively, a det-cord dispenser.
Jan 10 00:30:14 <raster> holycow: and if it runs linux and is open - you can do your own custom os image
Jan 10 00:30:17 <raster> and easily flash it
Jan 10 00:30:26 <holycow> raster: which we do already.
Jan 10 00:30:32 <raster> so companies that have enouhg users spend a bit of time getting thigns right for their userbase
Jan 10 00:30:34 <raster> then replicate
Jan 10 00:30:38 <holycow> also
Jan 10 00:30:53 <holycow> the power of this device is irrelevant past a certain point
Jan 10 00:30:57 <raster> holycow: how much would you pay?
Jan 10 00:31:03 <holycow> becaus as long as it can get on the net it s thin client
Jan 10 00:31:23 <holycow> raster: well thin clients are around $400 ... this is a laptop basically so laptop prices
Jan 10 00:31:32 <raster> ok
Jan 10 00:31:40 <holycow> hard to say but really i'm replacing laptops with these
Jan 10 00:31:40 <raster> well its more netbook territory
Jan 10 00:31:43 <raster> in performance
Jan 10 00:31:47 <holycow> so $500 to $1k
Jan 10 00:31:50 <holycow> netbook yes
Jan 10 00:31:51 <raster> ok
Jan 10 00:31:53 <raster> sounds doable
Jan 10 00:32:05 <raster> (excluding the actual monitors and kbd/mice)
Jan 10 00:32:09 <holycow> yes right
Jan 10 00:32:31 <holycow> i'm not just saying this, i can be contacted aboutthis at any point in time
Jan 10 00:32:34 <holycow> if a vendor is ready
Jan 10 00:32:37 <raster> ie device + base station (with hdmi->dvi out, usb hub (4 port or so)) all powerd doubling as a charging station
Jan 10 00:32:43 <holycow> yes
Jan 10 00:32:56 <raster> i think it'd be doable in low volmes for under 1k
Jan 10 00:33:12 <holycow> we are currently spending $1200 on laptops only because people have the impression that a more expensive laptop is better
Jan 10 00:33:18 <raster> of course mass market (100k+ units) would bring the cost dow a lot more to the $500 range
Jan 10 00:33:21 <holycow> i've tried but its a perception thing
Jan 10 00:33:22 <holycow> however
Jan 10 00:33:27 <holycow> if i can get them a desktop to carry around
Jan 10 00:33:57 <holycow> thats a whole other ballgame
Jan 10 00:34:09 <raster> or even better
Jan 10 00:34:15 <raster> what if the whole os was on.. the sd card?
Jan 10 00:34:20 <holycow> even better
Jan 10 00:34:24 <raster> so when the user totally fucks it up
Jan 10 00:34:26 <holycow> we upgrade now by sending out hard drives
Jan 10 00:34:27 <raster> just pull the card out
Jan 10 00:34:32 <holycow> i can just send out an sd card on the os
Jan 10 00:34:32 <raster> cat a new fs image on
Jan 10 00:34:34 <raster> had it back
Jan 10 00:34:39 <holycow> it has to be a large enough sd card tho
Jan 10 00:34:43 <raster> and for remote users yup
Jan 10 00:34:48 <raster> just send out bunches of sd cards
Jan 10 00:34:52 <raster> up to you
Jan 10 00:34:58 <raster> microsd go up to 8g these days
Jan 10 00:35:03 <holycow> i have 175 desktops ... i could replacde 150 of them with this
Jan 10 00:35:10 <holycow> 8g would be plenty
Jan 10 00:35:14 <holycow> our / partition is 10 gigs
Jan 10 00:35:16 <raster> and they will get bigger
Jan 10 00:35:17 <holycow> our /home is 10 gigs
Jan 10 00:35:18 <CIA-46> freesmartphone.org: 03mickey 07gsm0710muxd * r95151f9e2fe3 10/ (ChangeLog configure.ac): release as 0.9.2.2
Jan 10 00:35:19 <holycow> lol
Jan 10 00:35:30 <holycow> thats on a desktop
Jan 10 00:35:33 <raster> sure
Jan 10 00:35:49 <raster> u want a smarter setyp that employs caching
Jan 10 00:35:51 <sicu> microSD go to 16gb
Jan 10 00:35:56 <raster> u'd want a cachefs
Jan 10 00:36:08 <SpeedEvil> sigius: 64 prolly by the time this thing hits
Jan 10 00:36:09 <raster> whihc normally snarfs the fs from nfs/smb
Jan 10 00:36:18 <raster> and will sync the dir tree meta-data
Jan 10 00:36:23 <raster> but wont fetch the file data until needed
Jan 10 00:36:32 <raster> and then keep the most accessed data in a local cache
Jan 10 00:36:33 <sicu> SpeedEvil: probably
Jan 10 00:36:47 <raster> so a 2g sd shoudl be enough for os + all your daily data needs
Jan 10 00:36:48 <holycow> well people can just store their files on an encrypted usb disk too if they want
Jan 10 00:36:50 <Dave> sicu :o
Jan 10 00:36:55 <sicu> Dave =D
Jan 10 00:36:58 <Dave> ;)
Jan 10 00:37:00 <holycow> with 2 or 3 us ports, there is enough there
Jan 10 00:37:08 <raster> :)
Jan 10 00:37:25 <raster> they'd have to take the base stattion with them though
Jan 10 00:37:28 <Dave> more hubs, more power!
Jan 10 00:37:29 <raster> or bring a powered usb hub
Jan 10 00:38:03 <raster> i wonder how many companies out there would do such a thing
Jan 10 00:38:16 <holycow> welll you are talking about a smartphone first
Jan 10 00:38:20 <raster> replace all their laptop/desktop/phone fleet with a single fleixble smartphone
Jan 10 00:38:28 <holycow> second you are just extending the smartphone to the netbook space
Jan 10 00:38:34 <raster> (if it can double as a desktop given breakout of display)
Jan 10 00:38:34 <holycow> what that does is merge two areas:
Jan 10 00:38:44 <holycow> calling / desktops
Jan 10 00:38:56 <holycow> the number of people that need that device is kind of simple to think of
Jan 10 00:39:25 <holycow> its anyone that needs only a netbook + celphone +  pda 
Jan 10 00:39:26 <raster> but that would actually PAY for it
Jan 10 00:39:34 <raster> that would trust it
Jan 10 00:39:38 <raster> because it doesnt run windows
Jan 10 00:39:44 <holycow> ah ... that 
Jan 10 00:39:48 <raster> rememebr u are talking a buttload of corporate shills
Jan 10 00:39:54 <raster> "but it doesnt run outlook!"
Jan 10 00:39:57 <holycow> *hmmm* sorry i keep on thinking about our needs, we run linux so its not a problem
Jan 10 00:39:57 <raster> "where is excel?"
Jan 10 00:39:59 <raster> :)
Jan 10 00:40:02 <raster> yup
Jan 10 00:40:04 <holycow> yeah right
Jan 10 00:40:12 <raster> you'd have to have them siling to give up on ms
Jan 10 00:40:16 <raster> basically (already)
Jan 10 00:40:20 <holycow> we have had to leave a few people on ms here as well but they are stragglers
Jan 10 00:40:46 <holycow> well thats a good point ... i think that the answer to that might be the same answer as to why no one has made any arm laptops
Jan 10 00:41:00 <holycow> there is a market for it but ... yeah shit.  right forgot about the windows people
Jan 10 00:41:22 <raster> that cuts the market down a lot
Jan 10 00:41:24 <raster> and then pricepoint
Jan 10 00:41:26 <holycow> a lot
Jan 10 00:41:31 <raster> they would go "but we already have something that works"
Jan 10 00:41:38 <raster> replacing it means throwing out the existing investment
Jan 10 00:41:43 <raster> and spending more
Jan 10 00:41:49 <raster> whihc currently is highly unlikely
Jan 10 00:42:02 <holycow> with the current market conditions i agree
Jan 10 00:42:07 <holycow> i'll say this let me find a link:
Jan 10 00:42:08 <Dave> eek
Jan 10 00:42:14 <raster> mind u
Jan 10 00:42:19 <raster> again if u plan low volume
Jan 10 00:42:28 <raster> and you try and attach several markets at once
Jan 10 00:42:31 * SpeedEvil coats all the release windows disks with ebola.
Jan 10 00:42:35 <raster> the same device wqould be a dream for linux hackers
Jan 10 00:42:53 <raster> and frankly your average linux hacker these days is a professional or semi-professionakl
Jan 10 00:42:54 <SpeedEvil> raster: you're competing there against flashed _mass_ market stuff tho
Jan 10 00:42:54 <holycow> http://www.geekstuff4u.com/notebooks/umpc-handheld/fujitsu-u-b50-u2010-a-spec.html
Jan 10 00:42:56 <raster> with disposable income
Jan 10 00:42:58 <holycow> i have one of those
Jan 10 00:43:07 <raster> and they likely will spend it on such things regardless of the finacial crsis
Jan 10 00:43:08 <raster> :)
Jan 10 00:43:08 <holycow> i can't tell you how many execs when i fly ask me about the form factor
Jan 10 00:43:16 <holycow> i've had people interrup my dinner to do a demo for them
Jan 10 00:43:26 <holycow> so the formfactor thing is big, they all hate laptops
Jan 10 00:43:26 <raster> SpeedEvil: yes - but is it open? :)
Jan 10 00:43:30 <holycow> they REALLY hate laptops
Jan 10 00:43:31 <raster> out of the box open
Jan 10 00:43:33 <holycow> but its the windows thing
Jan 10 00:43:38 <SpeedEvil> raster: I have a chainsaw.
Jan 10 00:43:47 <raster> ie vendor encourages you to "go at it' and do your own os builds
Jan 10 00:43:48 <holycow> raster: well at minimum you would get allthe openmoko community buying it
Jan 10 00:43:48 <raster> :)
Jan 10 00:43:51 <holycow> all of them would
Jan 10 00:43:59 <holycow> BUT one single thing would haveto be done right
Jan 10 00:44:03 <holycow> the phone application
Jan 10 00:44:13 <SpeedEvil> raster: there is 'is it open' and there is 'But I can have this for 0.75* the money, and it can be flashed'.
Jan 10 00:44:21 <holycow> the mailing lists are clear about that having to be dead right from the outset
Jan 10 00:44:25 <raster> holycow: l aaah te fujitsu mini - expensive little fucker, but nice
Jan 10 00:45:00 <raster> SpeedEvil: true. nothing much to be done there
Jan 10 00:45:08 <holycow> yeah, its cool.  its a great laptop replacement  for the most part
Jan 10 00:45:16 <raster> holycow: i know
Jan 10 00:45:40 <raster> SpeedEvil:  mind you - NO ONE is doing a smartpphone that has an ability to have dvi out to a normal screen
Jan 10 00:45:47 <holycow> raster: well you know what tho?
Jan 10 00:45:50 <raster> (that i have heard of)
Jan 10 00:45:56 <holycow> i'll tell you where you can really hit a home run
Jan 10 00:46:06 <holycow> thin clients basically have similar hardware to what you described
Jan 10 00:46:13 <holycow> some come with twin vide out even
Jan 10 00:46:20 <holycow> thy are about $450 dollars or so
Jan 10 00:46:25 <holycow> if you can get close to that
Jan 10 00:46:32 <holycow> you can have the same device for both applications
Jan 10 00:46:38 <holycow> but the thinclient would be sans lcd
Jan 10 00:46:41 <holycow> thus less cost
Jan 10 00:46:55 <holycow> so you could take the device and target it at multiple niches
Jan 10 00:47:12 <raster> as long as it has enouhg cpu/ram/flahs/storage
Jan 10 00:47:13 <SpeedEvil> raster: you're assuming at least 200% BOM cost -> retail I assume?
Jan 10 00:47:19 <raster> and enough peripheral attachments available
Jan 10 00:47:21 <raster> anything is possible
Jan 10 00:47:26 <raster> just a matter of software
Jan 10 00:47:27 <raster> :)
Jan 10 00:47:37 <raster> SpeedEvil: roughly - yes
Jan 10 00:47:45 <holycow> they other end is is verticals too
Jan 10 00:47:51 <holycow> a lot of verticals have been looking at the moko
Jan 10 00:48:09 <holycow> to what extent and where that can be used i don't know i'm not in the business
Jan 10 00:48:34 <holycow> again moko core startegy as well
Jan 10 00:48:37 <raster> sure
Jan 10 00:48:51 <raster> there's definitelty a market
Jan 10 00:49:01 <holycow> i was at 7/11 the other day
Jan 10 00:49:02 <raster> the q is.. how big is it really on a conservative scale
Jan 10 00:49:06 <holycow> guess what they have for their inventory?
Jan 10 00:49:10 <raster> and how hard is it to get the market to know the thing exists
Jan 10 00:49:19 <holycow> they have actual flip notebook thingies
Jan 10 00:49:28 <holycow> its a windows xp install with a winxp app
Jan 10 00:49:33 <raster> yup
Jan 10 00:49:38 <holycow> on a fliptop laptop and doing touchscreen input
Jan 10 00:49:38 <raster> a lot of places do that kind of stuff
Jan 10 00:49:40 <holycow> its retarded
Jan 10 00:49:46 <holycow> but your app could do that perfectly
Jan 10 00:49:51 <holycow> err device
Jan 10 00:50:00 <holycow> could do that sort of vertical integration much better
Jan 10 00:50:07 <holycow> except of course for the windows stuff
Jan 10 00:50:36 <holycow> well it could do it over rdp over a wireless network
Jan 10 00:50:43 <holycow> or as a web app
Jan 10 00:50:50 <holycow> which is probably what most of those apps will move to
Jan 10 00:51:05 <holycow> if they are storing the inventory on the laptop and then synching it later ... that can't possibly work reliably
Jan 10 00:51:06 <holycow> heh
Jan 10 00:51:32 <holycow> also think games ... i mean with a usb port i can build an epansion pod
Jan 10 00:51:38 <holycow> to add jostick stuff to it
Jan 10 00:51:44 <holycow> lol okay very expensive gaming pad but its a full os
Jan 10 00:51:56 <holycow> i donno the gfx capabiliteis so  i'm kinda thinking iphone sorta deal
Jan 10 00:52:11 <holycow> a phone app must work tho, the audience has spoken on that one
Jan 10 00:52:19 <raster> the omap35630 has the same 3d chip as the palm pre and iphone
Jan 10 00:52:31 <holycow> and if you could start a store and start app development and sell it on an itune/iphone kinda way for $.99 cents an app
Jan 10 00:52:48 <holycow> you could build a development community alongside the freedom zealots like me
Jan 10 00:53:13 <holycow> there is lots of room for people who want to pay for stuff you just haveto package it right
Jan 10 00:53:55 <holycow> so there are a few options there that can be explored fuerther
Jan 10 00:54:07 <holycow> the only catch is none of them as uniform and as large as the desktop has been for ms
Jan 10 00:54:25 <holycow> but i think thats splintering now too with the netbooks so maybe its time to start thinking about smaller and smaller niches
Jan 10 00:54:58 <raster> sure
Jan 10 00:55:04 <holycow> raster: i hope your loggin this, i won't remember any of it later :)
Jan 10 00:55:05 <raster> the hardest bit is making the thing
Jan 10 00:55:06 <holycow> hehe
Jan 10 00:55:08 <raster> the rest is not hard
Jan 10 00:55:09 <raster> :)
Jan 10 00:55:15 * sicu queues up to buy a few
Jan 10 00:55:25 <sicu> raster: when's it ready ?
Jan 10 00:55:31 <sicu> ;p
Jan 10 00:55:32 <raster> hahahah
Jan 10 00:55:33 <holycow> raster: i think if i look at the mailing lists, this is what the moko community wants
Jan 10 00:55:35 <raster> can't say
Jan 10 00:55:37 <raster> doesn't exist
Jan 10 00:55:38 <holycow> its what the pandora community wants too
Jan 10 00:55:41 <raster> not even a prototype
Jan 10 00:55:45 <raster> (yet)
Jan 10 00:55:58 <raster> pandora is cool
Jan 10 00:55:59 <raster> if a bit big
Jan 10 00:56:04 <raster> but it misses 3g
Jan 10 00:56:05 <raster> basically
Jan 10 00:56:08 <holycow> bingo
Jan 10 00:56:17 <holycow> thats exactly what i said too
Jan 10 00:56:26 <holycow> if it had 3g id be terribly happy 
Jan 10 00:56:27 <raster> but its a game console
Jan 10 00:56:34 <raster> or built to be one
Jan 10 00:56:40 <raster> its more laptop/game console like
Jan 10 00:56:43 <raster> than phone-like
Jan 10 00:56:50 <holycow> well sure, but i can do two things there:
Jan 10 00:56:53 <holycow> install ubuntu
Jan 10 00:57:15 <holycow> and if i had a phone app use a bluetooth device to do the voice over the 3g device
Jan 10 00:58:09 <SpeedEvil> UMA too!
Jan 10 00:58:38 <raster> sure
Jan 10 00:58:59 <SpeedEvil> Though I'm not sure how the software stack works with that.
Jan 10 01:00:23 <holycow> raster: if you guys or anyone ever comes up with something close to that i'm available to talk 
Jan 10 01:00:25 <holycow> lol
Jan 10 01:00:55 <holycow> raster: what formfactor were you visualizing, iphone/moko or blackberry with kb?
Jan 10 01:01:11 <holycow> for the roaming usecase
Jan 10 01:01:37 <raster> holycow: looking into it
Jan 10 01:01:37 <raster> :)
Jan 10 01:01:40 <SpeedEvil> keyb adds a whole nother layer of mechanical issues.
Jan 10 01:01:48 <raster> for now small with no kbd built in
Jan 10 01:01:53 <raster> 3" screen
Jan 10 01:01:59 <raster> capacitive
Jan 10 01:02:09 <SpeedEvil> 32"
Jan 10 01:02:13 <raster> otherwise everything pac ked in
Jan 10 01:02:24 <holycow> it does, but remember one thing, ceos love the ability to type a message out on a kb ..
Jan 10 01:02:41 <holycow> texting on an lcd i haven't seen done well yet but it might be 
Jan 10 01:02:45 <SpeedEvil> Do what you can do.
Jan 10 01:02:51 <raster> 3g hspa, omap3530, wifi, bt, accelerometers, usb2.
Jan 10 01:03:04 <raster> holycow:  i know. but a kbd is a mechanical nightmare
Jan 10 01:03:11 <raster> unless u have good mechanical guys
Jan 10 01:03:17 <SpeedEvil> and moulding
Jan 10 01:03:18 <holycow> oh i see what you are saying
Jan 10 01:03:21 <raster> and a kbd cannto be changed in a software update
Jan 10 01:03:23 <raster> a vkbd can
Jan 10 01:03:24 <raster> :)
Jan 10 01:03:35 <raster> you have the mould issues
Jan 10 01:03:40 <holycow> how do people do texting on vkbd?
Jan 10 01:03:43 <raster> the lots of tiny buttons that being mechanical.. break
Jan 10 01:03:52 <raster> holycow: ask iphone owners
Jan 10 01:03:53 <raster> :)
Jan 10 01:03:54 <holycow> what is a good vkbd example i might be able to try to see?
Jan 10 01:03:59 <holycow> is theirs good?
Jan 10 01:04:03 <SpeedEvil> xvkbd
Jan 10 01:04:19 <raster> holycow: iphones vkbd is one of the better ones
Jan 10 01:04:25 <holycow> can you use it with two large thumbs for example?
Jan 10 01:04:26 <holycow> just curious
Jan 10 01:04:28 <raster> qtopia and ilume are within striking distance
Jan 10 01:04:34 <raster> tho illumes dict code has bugs to work out
Jan 10 01:06:02 <raster> should be able to
Jan 10 01:06:12 <raster> as it basically corrects what u type
Jan 10 01:06:18 <raster> the methods very
Jan 10 01:06:18 <holycow> okay i'll dig up an iphone somewhere and try it out to see
Jan 10 01:06:31 <raster> iphoens is to increase hit areas based on prediction of the next letter
Jan 10 01:06:32 <holycow> there is a downside to the bb kb
Jan 10 01:06:40 <holycow> its very small and tight
Jan 10 01:06:49 <raster> qtopia and illume do lookups + key search area for likely candidates
Jan 10 01:06:54 <holycow> if the vkb is done horizontally so the keystrokes are furtehr apart
Jan 10 01:07:07 <holycow> then it might be doable if i think about it
Jan 10 01:07:07 <raster> thats a give and dtake for any small device
Jan 10 01:07:13 <raster> you make it big to fit a kbd
Jan 10 01:07:19 <raster> and then people bitch its too big for their pockets
Jan 10 01:07:21 <holycow> my bb accuracy is horrible
Jan 10 01:07:28 <raster> or u make it small and peole bitch the kbd is unusable
Jan 10 01:07:32 <holycow> lol
Jan 10 01:07:35 <holycow> i fall into both camps
Jan 10 01:07:37 <holycow> haha
Jan 10 01:07:39 <holycow> damn
Jan 10 01:07:46 * SpeedEvil passes raster a chording keyboard.
Jan 10 01:07:58 <raster> SpeedEvil:  good luck making everyone learn to use one of those
Jan 10 01:07:59 <raster> :)
Jan 10 01:08:21 <SpeedEvil> raster: Come the revolution, I will!
Jan 10 01:08:55 <holycow> raster: maybe as a data point, we use ubuntu on desktops, gnome for now, kde4 when its ready, and basic apps liek firefox, open office, lotus notes for email (to be replaced by zaraffa soon) and a web based intranet comming soon
Jan 10 01:09:24 <holycow> thats probably a lower end office environment requirement or even an average user requirement
Jan 10 01:10:03 <holycow> people do have varying /home dir sizes, some have up to 1 gig, a few are getting over that because they ahve no clue about what jpegs are and what file sizes mean
Jan 10 01:10:17 <holycow> but overal most users are under 500 megs for /home dir for those that are prudent
Jan 10 01:10:36 <holycow> we do use rdp for windows apps and will be doing more of that for more users
Jan 10 01:10:39 <holycow> so in a way
Jan 10 01:10:49 <holycow> we are using our desktops and laptops as thick clients
Jan 10 01:10:52 <holycow> which is kind of stupid
Jan 10 01:11:11 <holycow> if we could put the thick client in their pocket and give them a cel phone capability
Jan 10 01:11:23 <holycow> plus a useably xkbd ... yeah
Jan 10 01:11:26 <raster> most of that is pretty standard fare i'd say
Jan 10 01:11:42 <raster> as such
Jan 10 01:11:46 <holycow> yup
Jan 10 01:11:49 <raster> a kbd-less phone i think would do the job
Jan 10 01:11:57 <raster> as u can catty a bt kbd with u for serious typing
Jan 10 01:12:06 <holycow> i'll haveto test to see but i'll take experts opinion on this
Jan 10 01:12:20 <holycow> well no one does serious typing on a bb either
Jan 10 01:12:21 <holycow> so good point
Jan 10 01:12:32 <raster> i'd worry about a kbd for a 2nd gen device
Jan 10 01:12:42 <raster> once u have all the inital stuff sorted
Jan 10 01:12:45 <holycow> if xkbd works why bother?
Jan 10 01:12:55 <raster> i'd say the vkbd is for messaging
Jan 10 01:13:01 <raster> im, irc, sms, short emails
Jan 10 01:13:07 <raster> so if it does that - you're fine
Jan 10 01:13:07 <holycow> thats all people use the bb for anyway
Jan 10 01:13:17 <holycow> i've never seen anyone work on a doc on a smartphone
Jan 10 01:13:20 <raster> if you have to edit a big document
Jan 10 01:13:24 <holycow> open one up and scroll through it but no more than that
Jan 10 01:13:27 <raster> that swhen people want a big screen and a real kbd
Jan 10 01:13:34 <raster> and thats.. where the base statin comes in
Jan 10 01:13:35 <raster> :)
Jan 10 01:13:43 <holycow> right and thats when we go ... go to the frickin office an dplug in to the terminal
Jan 10 01:14:00 <holycow> what i'd like to have is terminals at all offices
Jan 10 01:14:01 <raster> buy an extra docing station and have one for home
Jan 10 01:14:07 <raster> and maybe a 3rd one for "the road"
Jan 10 01:14:09 <holycow> where people can just walk up to one, plug in, authenticate and go
Jan 10 01:14:15 <raster> if u do long trips
Jan 10 01:14:23 <holycow> this would be so far ahead of anything out there available to us ..
Jan 10 01:14:40 <holycow> actually we could do taht yes
Jan 10 01:14:53 <holycow> i wouldn't have a hard time selling docking stations for managers at home
Jan 10 01:15:01 <raster> as long as a kbd/mouse and screen and a docking stn is available at the place you wil commonly sit ona  chair and at a desk for a while to "Work"
Jan 10 01:15:03 <raster> its fine
Jan 10 01:15:15 <holycow> thats exactly how i see our future workplace
Jan 10 01:15:20 <raster> docking stn is a cheap trinket anyway
Jan 10 01:15:37 <raster> just power supply, usb hub and lcd->dfvi breakout
Jan 10 01:16:01 <raster> (with power cable, and probably supplied with a hdmi->dvi cable for the screen)
Jan 10 01:16:13 <raster> leave the kbd/mouse up to the user as thsoe ara highly personal preferences
Jan 10 01:16:26 <holycow> lol and the docking station is nothing more than what we have (an lcd) plus the other 3 items
Jan 10 01:16:59 <holycow> now, if i only had half a mil to blow
Jan 10 01:17:00 <holycow> lol
Jan 10 01:17:03 <holycow> :)
Jan 10 01:17:07 <raster> hehehe
Jan 10 01:17:46 <raster> dont we all
Jan 10 01:17:52 <holycow> :)
Jan 10 01:18:12 <holycow> lets see
Jan 10 01:18:24 <holycow> chinese like minimum orders in what ... 10k unites?
Jan 10 01:18:26 <holycow> units
Jan 10 01:19:06 <raster> well i am estimating for a 10k production run u'd have a retail price of pushing around $800-$900 or so
Jan 10 01:19:17 <raster> if u can jump the next level and do a 200-500k run
Jan 10 01:19:25 <raster> u'd be able to halve that easily
Jan 10 01:19:29 <holycow> so 10 mil startup costs
Jan 10 01:19:31 <holycow> heh
Jan 10 01:19:42 * SpeedEvil offers $10.
Jan 10 01:19:48 <holycow> SpeedEvil: lol
Jan 10 01:19:55 <raster> no thats be retail price
Jan 10 01:20:01 <raster> production/bom is diferent
Jan 10 01:20:07 <raster> and u have r&d, certifications etc. etc.
Jan 10 01:20:09 <cb22> I'll match SpeedEvil's offer and raise $2
Jan 10 01:20:10 <holycow> yeah but margins are no better than 15%
Jan 10 01:20:34 <raster> cb22:  margins will need to be high on a low-run device
Jan 10 01:20:39 <raster> as initial costs are high
Jan 10 01:20:48 <raster> ONCe u have a series of devices
Jan 10 01:20:50 <raster> or large runs
Jan 10 01:20:55 <raster> u can look at % margin per unit
Jan 10 01:21:02 <holycow> so the key then is arm + windows to get the super large volumes
Jan 10 01:21:11 <holycow> to drop the price down enough to run linux
Jan 10 01:21:13 <holycow> lol
Jan 10 01:21:18 <raster> or make them give up on windows
Jan 10 01:21:23 <raster> ie provide "all you need"
Jan 10 01:21:30 <raster> oddly enouhg if you market it as a PHONE
Jan 10 01:21:31 <raster> this is easier
Jan 10 01:21:39 <holycow> thats an interesting idea
Jan 10 01:21:40 <Tm_T> raster: indeed
Jan 10 01:21:49 <raster> as the psyhce for phones is mroe the "it doesnt matter if its windows or not" world
Jan 10 01:21:51 <holycow> its not a computer its a phone
Jan 10 01:21:54 <raster> if u market it as a "mini laptop"
Jan 10 01:21:56 <holycow> huh i didn't think about that
Jan 10 01:21:58 <holycow> no kiding
Jan 10 01:21:59 <Tm_T> especially as Windows Mobile is really horrible, especially as phone
Jan 10 01:22:01 <raster> u get the "so where's windows?" argument
Jan 10 01:22:10 <holycow> yeah wow i never thought of that
Jan 10 01:22:19 <holycow> and all of a sudden you have a 100 million devices out there doing everyting you need
Jan 10 01:22:21 <holycow> *hmm*
Jan 10 01:22:25 <holycow> i think you are on to something
Jan 10 01:22:25 <raster> so you will be making a BET that peolpe see it as a phone
Jan 10 01:22:28 <raster> not a laptop
Jan 10 01:22:31 <holycow> right
Jan 10 01:22:40 <raster> and thus be much more willing to not worry on the "is it windows" argument
Jan 10 01:22:42 <holycow> while all the whil eyou are changing the playing ground
Jan 10 01:22:50 <holycow> holy crap will that piss off two very very large companies
Jan 10 01:23:03 <raster> thats also a danger
Jan 10 01:23:04 <raster> if ua re small
Jan 10 01:23:09 <raster> you will be squashed like a bug
Jan 10 01:23:20 <holycow> i don't see anyone pulling off a thing like that
Jan 10 01:23:24 <holycow> except amd :)
Jan 10 01:23:47 <holycow> well you know ... 
Jan 10 01:24:10 <holycow> freescale just might be kinda thinking about this
Jan 10 01:24:17 <holycow> its not like they haven't thought about it
Jan 10 01:24:26 <holycow> so raster, what do you say we prime the pump here?
Jan 10 01:24:42 <holycow> we put up a finished product design based on off the shelf hardware
Jan 10 01:24:45 <holycow> document it all in a wiki
Jan 10 01:24:52 <holycow> promote it on digg, reddit and tech sites
Jan 10 01:24:55 <holycow> and see who makes it?
Jan 10 01:25:07 <holycow> lol :)
Jan 10 01:25:13 <SpeedEvil> doesn't work so well
Jan 10 01:25:29 <SpeedEvil> Document it, and you reduce the barrier to copying.
Jan 10 01:25:44 <SpeedEvil> reduce the barrier to copying, and you reduce the profit that anyone building it can make.
Jan 10 01:25:55 <holycow> the barriers is already 0
Jan 10 01:26:00 <SpeedEvil> So you don't end up with anyone trying. (worst case)
Jan 10 01:26:01 <holycow> its all off the shelf technology
Jan 10 01:26:06 <Slaxxer> someone WILL make it
Jan 10 01:26:07 <holycow> the only thing not off the shelf is the phone app
Jan 10 01:26:12 <raster> holycow: chances are u want a prototype
Jan 10 01:26:19 <raster> that works 'in principle'
Jan 10 01:26:29 <SpeedEvil> It's 'off the shelf technology'
Jan 10 01:26:38 <holycow> that would cost at leat 10k
Jan 10 01:26:47 <SpeedEvil> holycow: but devloping it is going to take >>$10K 
Jan 10 01:26:47 <raster> and then you want to find... investors willing to pony up the big bucks to turn it into a production-run design and get a first batch done
Jan 10 01:27:01 <raster> and then u have the logistics costs and certification
Jan 10 01:27:08 <raster> and then.. marketing and support
Jan 10 01:27:13 <SpeedEvil> holycow: the tooling for a production phone will run at least double that. 
Jan 10 01:27:28 <SpeedEvil> holycow: and then the funding for a batch of 100 or 500
Jan 10 01:27:34 <holycow> lol
Jan 10 01:27:46 <raster> SpeedEvil:  and the cost of the design itself
Jan 10 01:27:51 <raster> and thats just board+components
Jan 10 01:27:56 <raster> no case
Jan 10 01:28:10 <raster> tho these days i'd just do the case on a 3d printer
Jan 10 01:28:11 <holycow> hehehe :)
Jan 10 01:28:16 <holycow> ah man, you guys are dream killers
Jan 10 01:28:17 <SpeedEvil> holycow: at the level of 1-2 chips, and some passives, you can pretty much design it in a few days and have confidence itll work.
Jan 10 01:28:18 <raster> and only make like 2 or 3 to "show"
Jan 10 01:28:33 <raster> SpeedEvil:  actuyally.. i have the money for that
Jan 10 01:28:45 <SpeedEvil> holycow: at this sort of level - with dozens of chips - and hundreds of passives, you're looking at real effort.
Jan 10 01:28:50 <raster> for doing board design, tooling for a small run of maybe 10 or 20
Jan 10 01:28:58 <SpeedEvil> holycow: and many revisions to get it right.
Jan 10 01:29:05 <holycow> heh
Jan 10 01:29:06 <raster> enough to get a few of them working and demonstrated
Jan 10 01:29:07 <SpeedEvil> raster: :)
Jan 10 01:29:28 <holycow> purely speculative ... what can it cost to get 1 built?
Jan 10 01:29:31 <SpeedEvil> raster: or do wacky stuff. Like wooden cases. Polished walnut.
Jan 10 01:29:40 <raster> holycow: SpeedEvil was just teloing u
Jan 10 01:29:40 <raster> :)
Jan 10 01:29:41 <holycow> just one of those dev dealies where all parts are on a rtable
Jan 10 01:29:45 <SpeedEvil> holycow: $20K
Jan 10 01:29:47 <holycow> oh hehe nm
Jan 10 01:29:54 <raster> budget $20-40k
Jan 10 01:30:03 <raster> and that will probably get you about 20 of them
Jan 10 01:30:14 <SpeedEvil> Though 1 will be not much less
Jan 10 01:30:16 <raster> (this is why dev boards are so fricken expensive as they are low volume)
Jan 10 01:30:19 <Slaxxer> if only u had the bucks to step up to the plate
Jan 10 01:30:26 <raster> SpeedEvil:  yup.
Jan 10 01:30:33 <raster> so if u do 1, do 20
Jan 10 01:30:38 <holycow> i thought 1 demo unit originally would be more than 10k yeah i can see that
Jan 10 01:30:39 <raster> u have backups for when they fry
Jan 10 01:30:46 <raster> and can give them away to strategic people
Jan 10 01:30:58 <raster> Slaxxer: i'm stepping up
Jan 10 01:30:59 <holycow> well if you only have 40k and do a few demo ... its kind a waste
Jan 10 01:31:06 <holycow> i mean if you are going to do it you want to do it right
Jan 10 01:31:08 <Slaxxer> once u get past a certain point its all good as long as people dont try to get a monthly salery an stuff
Jan 10 01:31:12 <raster> holycow:  no. thats reality in the hw bizx
Jan 10 01:31:16 <holycow> all you are buyign with 40k is a right to play at the poker table
Jan 10 01:31:18 <Slaxxer> i know u are
Jan 10 01:31:29 <holycow> and you are likely to get killed negotiating 
Jan 10 01:31:29 <raster> this is why r&d is costly
Jan 10 01:31:51 <raster> like many things
Jan 10 01:31:53 <raster> its a risk
Jan 10 01:31:56 <raster> you invest it
Jan 10 01:31:59 <raster> toub build
Jan 10 01:32:24 <raster> then you need to sell the thing to investors to pump in more to fund the rest of dev
Jan 10 01:32:30 <raster> ie final design tweaks
Jan 10 01:32:33 <raster> certification
Jan 10 01:32:38 <raster> software  polish
Jan 10 01:32:40 <holycow> if i had 100k to gamble on this
Jan 10 01:32:42 <raster> case and other things
Jan 10 01:32:45 <holycow> i totally would
Jan 10 01:32:47 <Slaxxer> its a tough road
Jan 10 01:32:49 <raster> marketing logistics etc.
Jan 10 01:32:58 <raster> the rest of that will make another 100-200k disappear
Jan 10 01:33:06 <raster> before you have even produced your first production unit
Jan 10 01:33:08 <holycow>  i don't mind a gamble with very low odds  lol
Jan 10 01:33:18 <holycow> but the one thing is i know nothign about the hw biz at all
Jan 10 01:33:19 <raster> THEN u need to find maybe a few million to fund the first batch
Jan 10 01:33:29 <raster> ie u make 5000 units in the batch
Jan 10 01:33:41 <holycow> and you need to find customers at approximately the same time
Jan 10 01:33:45 <raster> lets say just the prdocution cost is $500/unit with parts and labor and so on
Jan 10 01:33:49 <raster> 500
Jan 10 01:33:53 <raster> 500*5000
Jan 10 01:34:09 <raster> (2.5mil)
Jan 10 01:34:18 <holycow> yup
Jan 10 01:34:24 <raster> so by now u've watched 3mil basically vanish
Jan 10 01:34:31 <raster> and you have 5000 devices to sell
Jan 10 01:34:40 <raster> and you havent even got staff or an office yet
Jan 10 01:34:42 <Tm_T> and selling cost more
Jan 10 01:35:00 <Slaxxer> better be a good sdevice
Jan 10 01:35:07 <holycow> so this is why cel manufacturers sell to network carriers
Jan 10 01:35:27 <Dave> one meeeeeeeeeeeeeeeelleon
Jan 10 01:35:35 <raster> yup
Jan 10 01:35:40 <Tm_T> holycow: yes, because they are cowards
Jan 10 01:35:43 <raster> as a telco will BYU 50,000 in one lot
Jan 10 01:36:03 <raster> once you get to those scales you have lower costs
Jan 10 01:36:09 <raster> you can order parts in bulk and save
Jan 10 01:36:10 <holycow> Tm_T: well the consumer space is so crowded and fragmented, its also a lot easier if you can hit a niche they are looking for
Jan 10 01:36:18 <Tm_T> holycow: I know
Jan 10 01:36:18 <raster> some parts can drop to 1/20th the price
Jan 10 01:36:19 <Slaxxer> one sale to at&t     your good to go
Jan 10 01:36:23 <raster> buying 100000 vs 1
Jan 10 01:36:44 <holycow> interesting
Jan 10 01:36:45 <raster> even 1000 vs 100000 can see in some case half the price per component
Jan 10 01:36:53 <raster> this is why om has a hard time
Jan 10 01:37:09 <raster> the competitors deal in quantities so massive that everyone is geared up for that kind of volume
Jan 10 01:37:21 <holycow> totally makes sense
Jan 10 01:37:22 <raster> if you are not in that game - you get to feed off the scraps/leftovers
Jan 10 01:37:30 <raster> thats why the iphoen canbe so cheap to make
Jan 10 01:37:39 <holycow> its stll not that cheap imho
Jan 10 01:37:49 <raster> apple just walks in with a big bag of money and goes "We'll buy 10 million of that chip thanks. what price will you give us?"
Jan 10 01:38:00 <holycow> i think what you are saying is it costs 600 retail and not 1k maybe
Jan 10 01:38:10 <raster> and then vendors are worried much mroe about the problem of "how the fuck do i PRODUCE 10mil of that item?"
Jan 10 01:38:15 <SpeedEvil> raster: naah
Jan 10 01:38:17 <raster> and thats a problem they LIKE ot have
Jan 10 01:38:29 <SpeedEvil> raster: they get several vendors reps in a room, and get them to low-bid
Jan 10 01:38:33 <Slaxxer> what was it   179 us dollars to build it
Jan 10 01:38:38 <raster> holycow: oh 600 just covers COSTS
Jan 10 01:38:49 <raster> havent got an office, staff, secretary, manager, enigneers, etc.
Jan 10 01:39:02 <raster> this would be a vusiness run out of homes for fun
Jan 10 01:39:03 <holycow> cost of production right
Jan 10 01:39:07 <raster> and 600/unit might do it
Jan 10 01:39:21 <raster> SpeedEvil:  true- i skipepd that bit
Jan 10 01:39:30 <raster> SpeedEvil: but not in 1 room
Jan 10 01:39:31 <raster> they go to 1
Jan 10 01:39:37 <raster> and say "what will you do it for"
Jan 10 01:39:40 <raster> then talk to vendor 2
Jan 10 01:39:47 <raster> and say "but vendor 1 offered X"
Jan 10 01:39:49 <raster> and so on
Jan 10 01:39:50 <SpeedEvil> yeah - virtually
Jan 10 01:39:57 <raster> and over time get them to come down
Jan 10 01:39:58 <holycow> wow, thats killer
Jan 10 01:40:05 <raster> but playing them off against eachother
Jan 10 01:40:12 <raster> but they all want to as they know apple has the $
Jan 10 01:40:18 <raster> its a guaranteed payday
Jan 10 01:40:19 <SpeedEvil> If you're buying 1000 - the vendor is in control.
Jan 10 01:40:26 <SpeedEvil> Buy 10 million, and you are.
Jan 10 01:40:45 <raster> so you will NEVER be able to compete on price with the big boys
Jan 10 01:40:49 <raster> even palm and rim
Jan 10 01:40:53 <raster> or motorola and nokia
Jan 10 01:40:54 <raster> etc.
Jan 10 01:40:57 <raster> they just are to obig
Jan 10 01:40:58 <SpeedEvil> Well - unless they are making extreme profits.
Jan 10 01:41:03 <raster> so you need to compete on somethgin else they arent
Jan 10 01:41:12 <raster> SpeedEvil:  in many cases they are :)
Jan 10 01:41:16 <SpeedEvil> you can't compete on cost, no.
Jan 10 01:41:18 <holycow> well the problem really is that if its off the shelf hardware
Jan 10 01:41:20 <holycow> + linux
Jan 10 01:41:23 <SpeedEvil> but on price - maybe in some cases
Jan 10 01:41:24 <holycow> if you make any sales
Jan 10 01:41:33 <holycow> the big boys just pump out the exact same in no time too
Jan 10 01:41:39 <holycow> so even when you win you loose
Jan 10 01:42:01 <Slaxxer> dammit man
Jan 10 01:42:19 <Slaxxer> u build so they clone
Jan 10 01:42:23 <holycow> a device of this type is perfect for a super large vendor that can put their weight behind something like that for an extended period
Jan 10 01:42:48 <raster> holycow:  the big boys.. move much mroe slowly
Jan 10 01:42:51 <raster> that is the advantage
Jan 10 01:42:55 <holycow> do they?
Jan 10 01:42:59 <raster> they have 2532 layers of management
Jan 10 01:43:08 <raster> and for a decision to take effect it needs to travers many of them
Jan 10 01:43:15 <SpeedEvil> In principle, the big boys could move lots faster.
Jan 10 01:43:17 <holycow> see i think this is where apple pulled a great nike
Jan 10 01:43:21 <holycow> you are right raster
Jan 10 01:43:21 <SpeedEvil> They have the design teams, and the money.
Jan 10 01:43:24 <raster> they are oftne scare of what they are not totally familiar with
Jan 10 01:43:27 <raster> and will dither
Jan 10 01:43:27 <holycow> apple sells now the same shit everyone does
Jan 10 01:43:37 <raster> the only advantages you have are being more nimble
Jan 10 01:43:39 <SpeedEvil> They can press 'go' immediately that the decision at the top is made. In practuce, not.
Jan 10 01:43:40 <holycow> but because they have managed to create perceived value around that brand
Jan 10 01:43:46 <holycow> people are willing to pay for it
Jan 10 01:43:53 <raster> SpeedEvil:  yes - in theory :) but they dont
Jan 10 01:43:57 <holycow> do you think something like that can be a market advantage?
Jan 10 01:44:04 <raster> something like the iphone started years before it came out
Jan 10 01:44:04 <cb22> meh
Jan 10 01:44:08 <raster> same with most products
Jan 10 01:44:09 <cb22> I want to win the lottery
Jan 10 01:44:14 <raster> they start w long before as an idea
Jan 10 01:44:22 <raster> float about and go thru committes and approval stages
Jan 10 01:44:27 <raster> and get passed around for "input"
Jan 10 01:44:28 <raster> etc.
Jan 10 01:44:33 <holycow> maybe mark shuttleworth has passing interest in something like this
Jan 10 01:44:35 <holycow> lol
Jan 10 01:44:38 <cb22> then i'll fund a crazy idea like this
Jan 10 01:44:46 <raster> holycow: possibly - possibly not
Jan 10 01:44:56 <raster> but i suspect his money and focus is tied up in ubuntu
Jan 10 01:44:58 <raster> last i knew it was
Jan 10 01:45:03 <raster> he had enough on his plate
Jan 10 01:45:38 <holycow> yeah its a far large investmet than i think he expected
Jan 10 01:45:43 <holycow> with very small return
Jan 10 01:45:51 <holycow> he says he will break even on ubuntu in about two years
Jan 10 01:46:05 <holycow> with the economy who knows but he said he made the mistake of focusing on the desktop and not the server
Jan 10 01:46:15 <cb22> it's one of those things thats hard to translate into cash.
Jan 10 01:46:25 <holycow> i think they will find the money, he's a smart and tough cookie
Jan 10 01:46:34 <cb22> i did say hard, not impossible
Jan 10 01:46:52 <holycow> yeah i think his ubuntu play potentially has good payoff 
Jan 10 01:47:08 * cb22 curses kde4 and nvidia
Jan 10 01:47:19 <holycow> you cant beat that desktop and when you tie that into some enterprisey server end of things, he can start charging good margins for service on that
Jan 10 01:47:31 <cb22> i guess my xeons and 9800gtx aren't fast enough to support kwin's compositing :(
Jan 10 01:48:00 <holycow> raster: so do we start trolly for white night investors that will take 100% control of the company then ditch us later for some cheaper talent?
Jan 10 01:48:02 <holycow> hehehe
Jan 10 01:48:11 <holycow> trolling i mean
Jan 10 01:48:13 <holycow> haha 
Jan 10 01:48:34 <raster> holycow:  wel desktop gets visibility
Jan 10 01:48:35 <holycow> cb22 i have an i7 at home with an 8800
Jan 10 01:48:36 <raster> server doesnt
Jan 10 01:48:39 <holycow> super fast ... should be more than fine
Jan 10 01:48:47 <raster> but he should have simply made the desktop also servier-friendly 
Jan 10 01:49:00 <raster> ie include al the usual server tools on the desktop and fulyl support them
Jan 10 01:49:01 <raster> anyway
Jan 10 01:49:07 <cb22> holycow, thats the thing, gnome with compiz runs at crazy speeds. but kde4...
Jan 10 01:49:10 <holycow> i think thats their next step
Jan 10 01:49:12 <cb22> which is a pity, since i like kde
Jan 10 01:49:15 <holycow> i think he realizes that
Jan 10 01:49:27 <holycow> cb22 are you running beta or 4.1?
Jan 10 01:49:40 <raster> holycow: thats the point of doing a prototype first
Jan 10 01:49:45 <raster> dont start with just an idea and words
Jan 10 01:49:50 <raster> have something actually working
Jan 10 01:49:52 <raster> software, hw and all
Jan 10 01:49:58 <raster> you are in aVERY strong position to bargain
Jan 10 01:49:59 <cb22> 4.2 beta
Jan 10 01:50:00 <raster> and keep control
Jan 10 01:50:01 <holycow> raster: so walk into a meeting with a fully working demo eh?
Jan 10 01:50:08 <raster> yup
Jan 10 01:50:09 <holycow> cb22, yeah i'm running project neon at home ... tis fine 
Jan 10 01:50:13 <raster> it may be a board with wires
Jan 10 01:50:16 <raster> but its working
Jan 10 01:50:21 <raster> it needs some plastic
Jan 10 01:50:28 <raster> hell - the plastic can be arranged via a 3d printer
Jan 10 01:50:32 <raster> and a custom 1-off craft job
Jan 10 01:50:37 <holycow> well you can mount a lot of that in nicely driled lexan or something
Jan 10 01:50:45 <raster> with some glue, spraypaint etc.
Jan 10 01:50:50 <holycow> yeah exactly
Jan 10 01:50:52 <raster> if its a demo for 3investors - it'd be worth it
Jan 10 01:50:56 <raster> yup
Jan 10 01:51:00 <raster> i;'d just go the 3d printer
Jan 10 01:51:04 <raster> enough for the demo
Jan 10 01:51:05 <holycow> lol!
Jan 10 01:51:07 <holycow> you know what?
Jan 10 01:51:23 <raster> http://www.shapeways.com/
Jan 10 01:51:26 <raster> already handled
Jan 10 01:51:27 <holycow> i haven't had the time but i've been meaning to order some demo units from online printers for the moko
Jan 10 01:51:29 <holycow> hehe
Jan 10 01:51:30 <raster> u pay per cubice cm
Jan 10 01:51:31 <Sharwin_F> Is there any command to refresh the icons on the dektop?
Jan 10 01:51:38 <raster> hell - can even do the model in blender
Jan 10 01:51:43 <holycow> raster,that could even look pretty good
Jan 10 01:51:51 <raster> it'd be enough for a prototype
Jan 10 01:51:59 <raster> some car touchup spraypaint to color it
Jan 10 01:52:04 <Sharwin_F> o ite refereshes by itself :P
Jan 10 01:52:05 <holycow> raster, lol i'm blender friendly
Jan 10 01:52:07 <holycow> heh
Jan 10 01:52:14 <raster> and some custom work for a clear plexiglass front
Jan 10 01:52:26 <Slaxxer> raster plugs his blender in
Jan 10 01:52:42 <cb22> if you guys ever make a phone, i'll buy it! :)
Jan 10 01:52:49 <Slaxxer> u guys are almost there
Jan 10 01:53:06 <Slaxxer> bear down
Jan 10 01:53:18 * holycow looks at the number of people in the chan
Jan 10 01:53:19 <holycow> 304
Jan 10 01:53:35 <Dave> bears!?
Jan 10 01:53:37 <Slaxxer> where did everyone go?
Jan 10 01:53:38 <Dave> WHERE
Jan 10 01:53:40 <Dave> Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaah
Jan 10 01:53:58 <raster> cb22:  :)
Jan 10 01:54:01 <holycow> $20000  / 304 = $65 per person
Jan 10 01:54:04 <holycow> *cough*
Jan 10 01:54:05 <raster> cb22: working on it...
Jan 10 01:54:11 <raster> i hjave done a lot of.. research
Jan 10 01:54:12 <holycow> hehe :)
Jan 10 01:54:13 <raster> and planning
Jan 10 01:54:46 <raster> i have the person for the board design
Jan 10 01:54:51 <raster> they can get it to prototype production
Jan 10 01:54:54 <raster> and out
Jan 10 01:55:04 <raster> i've been selecting components carefully
Jan 10 01:55:28 <holycow> hey, i'll put up a wiki for ya and do graphic desing
Jan 10 01:55:28 <raster> 3g and touchscreen are still in progress for chekcing out
Jan 10 01:55:42 <raster> but i have targets
Jan 10 01:56:01 <holycow> but i know sonothing about the business or even where to approach for an investor
Jan 10 01:56:11 <raster> i can get this to prototype without any extra investments
Jan 10 01:56:18 <raster> so to the "pitch to investors with the real $"
Jan 10 01:56:27 <raster> so technically - i am the "angel investor" myself
Jan 10 01:56:37 <holycow> well if you need some help i'm around and interested
Jan 10 01:56:38 <raster> so i've already done the first round of funding
Jan 10 01:56:52 <raster> ie me talking to myself and convincing myself to lay down some hard earned dosh
Jan 10 01:56:56 <holycow> lol
Jan 10 01:57:00 <cb22> hehe
Jan 10 01:57:11 <raster> the problem is the next stage
Jan 10 01:57:20 <raster> whihc is going to need somewhere in the millions of $
Jan 10 01:57:26 <holycow> well you overkame probably my only objection and that was the kb ...if thats doable we will buy
Jan 10 01:57:43 <raster> well seriously
Jan 10 01:57:46 <holycow> i have an email trhead of my ceo asking me about going to all laptops and smarthpones
Jan 10 01:57:50 <raster> *IF* we can get enouhg funding
Jan 10 01:57:58 <raster> i'm willing to entertain a kbd
Jan 10 01:58:12 <raster> but i have put a kbd in the "expensive" land for getting this started
Jan 10 01:58:33 <raster> i already have telco's interested in the idea
Jan 10 01:58:42 <holycow> i would be more apt to spend cash on doing some research on the demand side of things
Jan 10 01:58:43 <raster> that means big orders
Jan 10 01:58:48 <cb22> i was toying with an idea for a highly efficent console touchscreen keyboard
Jan 10 01:58:54 <SpeedEvil> the hardware is the easy part
Jan 10 01:58:58 <raster> holycow:  spent years doing the research
Jan 10 01:58:59 <holycow> i know that I THINK there are people that would buy just like we are
Jan 10 01:59:06 <SpeedEvil> cb22_: the keyboard is the easy part
Jan 10 01:59:13 <raster> i estimate the enthusiast nerd market tto be about 20-50k units per year
Jan 10 01:59:15 <SpeedEvil> cb22_: the hard bit is training the users
Jan 10 01:59:23 <raster> thats the linux hackers/professionals with disposable income
Jan 10 01:59:24 <holycow> oh so you basically just asked me a few questions here and notice i fall into some of those demographics?
Jan 10 01:59:32 <holycow> lol
Jan 10 01:59:39 <raster> anything more than that is a bonus
Jan 10 01:59:49 <holycow> is that enough to make a go of it?
Jan 10 01:59:51 <raster> holycow: up
Jan 10 01:59:55 <raster> i always ask
Jan 10 02:00:01 <raster> i then go "aaah one of THSOE guys"
Jan 10 02:00:03 <cb22> SpeedEvil, something along the lines of mixing autocompletion with t9
Jan 10 02:00:12 <raster> (and i have you all pinned down in your little box)
Jan 10 02:00:14 <raster> :)
Jan 10 02:00:19 <holycow> lol
Jan 10 02:00:28 <holycow> well if you've done the research thats perfect
Jan 10 02:00:30 <SpeedEvil> cb22_: fundamental problem that you need to either internalise the dict, or stare at it
Jan 10 02:00:35 <raster> i started this whole "open linux phone that can do more than just the basics" going sicne like 2001 or so
Jan 10 02:00:37 <cb22> so if you press 1877 (8=tuv, 7=pqrs), you'll get /usr
Jan 10 02:00:40 <raster> thats when i started gettign into embedded
Jan 10 02:00:46 <holycow> oh really?
Jan 10 02:00:50 <holycow> huh neat
Jan 10 02:01:02 <raster> i've been follwing the market ever since
Jan 10 02:01:09 * SpeedEvil started it earlier.
Jan 10 02:01:14 <SpeedEvil> (though not as a phone)
Jan 10 02:01:21 <raster> i predicted back in 2003 that linux will "own" the market (> 50%) of cellphones in 10 years
Jan 10 02:01:26 <holycow> i'd like to encourage you to follow up on the spec we roughly described but i hate encouraging anyone to put up hard saved cash on a business that competitive
Jan 10 02:01:27 <SpeedEvil> I have some solid models of a chording palmtop.
Jan 10 02:01:28 <raster> but userspace will be split
Jan 10 02:01:31 <holycow> i'd like to help
Jan 10 02:01:33 <raster> some with x11 based satuff
Jan 10 02:01:39 <raster> others with custom ui frameworks/fb based
Jan 10 02:01:44 <raster> so its fragmented higher up
Jan 10 02:01:50 <raster> and thats just whats happening
Jan 10 02:01:54 <holycow> i'm in this channel because i always expected moko to evolve into what you described
Jan 10 02:02:02 <raster> pretty much everything i predicted camee true - and iw as on the pesssimistic side
Jan 10 02:02:10 <raster> so i'm fairly confident in my other numbers
Jan 10 02:02:27 <holycow> huh
Jan 10 02:02:29 <raster> as "i was right" has been the flavor of the month for the predictions
Jan 10 02:02:32 <SpeedEvil> with PCMCIA disk, 386/33 processor, handheld, several hour battery life, and virtual display.
Jan 10 02:02:32 <holycow> thats pretty frakin cool
Jan 10 02:02:48 <raster> so market- it's there
Jan 10 02:02:53 <raster> i'm a pessimist
Jan 10 02:02:57 <holycow> raster: so then what you are saying is if this business has 100+ desktops/laptops that could be replaced with such a unit
Jan 10 02:02:57 <raster> so i always err on the low side
Jan 10 02:03:01 <holycow> we aren't the only ones
Jan 10 02:03:06 <holycow> over and above the nerd market
Jan 10 02:03:10 <raster> holycow:  yup bet.
Jan 10 02:03:14 <raster> you
Jan 10 02:03:28 <holycow> holyshit
Jan 10 02:03:31 <holycow> you know what tho?
Jan 10 02:03:31 <Dave> hahaha
Jan 10 02:03:33 <holycow> you can also do?
Jan 10 02:03:37 <raster> i know there are a lot of baks out there wthat would love a phone they can tear the os apart on
Jan 10 02:03:40 <holycow> my business partner and i (we are contractors)
Jan 10 02:03:43 <raster> and lock it down for their traders/staff
Jan 10 02:03:48 <raster> fopr security
Jan 10 02:03:51 <holycow> we have been putting together open source business solutions for a few years now
Jan 10 02:03:57 <raster> they dont want tojust add a few java/web/whatever apps
Jan 10 02:04:01 <holycow> we install things like mail servers, smb ledger, project open
Jan 10 02:04:07 <holycow> all sorts of things here and there
Jan 10 02:04:07 <raster> they ant to rip out whole internals and tie it into their corporate systems
Jan 10 02:04:18 <holycow> if we were to say do somethign like this:
Jan 10 02:04:22 <holycow> a: you have this device
Jan 10 02:04:41 <raster> what i will need - once i have a prototypye, is "letters of intent"
Jan 10 02:04:41 <holycow> b: we need only a few local shops to offer a full suite of business frontend and backend
Jan 10 02:04:44 <raster> that is not a contract
Jan 10 02:04:50 <raster> its a letter of interest from a customer
Jan 10 02:05:05 <holycow> c: mark shuttleworth onboard with ubuntu support plus whatever he wants in terms of helping build the network out
Jan 10 02:05:13 <raster> they say "*IF u have thing x and price Y, we are absolutely sure we will want to buy $Z units per annum"
Jan 10 02:05:18 <holycow> what you could end up doing is a 'business in a box'
Jan 10 02:05:23 <raster> it shows a serious expesssion of interest
Jan 10 02:05:24 <holycow> don't buy a computer, buy a phone.
Jan 10 02:05:28 <raster> not just fanboys posting blogs
Jan 10 02:05:32 <holycow> the rest you can buy from service providers and mark shuttleworth
Jan 10 02:05:38 <raster> but real dollars and cents saying "we want to be spent"
Jan 10 02:05:54 <holycow> raster: i can get a letter of intent from this company yes.
Jan 10 02:06:01 <raster> cool
Jan 10 02:06:05 <raster> they arent legally binding things
Jan 10 02:06:09 <holycow> for minimum 50 units, 100 units over a period of predefined time
Jan 10 02:06:11 <raster> so they generally are safe to give out
Jan 10 02:06:21 <holycow> well these guys would get that looked over by a lawyer
Jan 10 02:06:29 <raster> but they show investors "market.. here.. waiting to spend - already have the contacts. we just need to produce"
Jan 10 02:06:33 <raster> and then of course extrapolate
Jan 10 02:06:37 <raster> if u can get 10 letters of intent
Jan 10 02:06:43 <raster> that total 20,000 units
Jan 10 02:06:55 <raster> that is just a "beginningt"
Jan 10 02:07:17 <raster> of course investors would exptrapolate and say "Well once it actually exists you'd at least double that volume from the others who would jump on it"
Jan 10 02:07:19 <raster> etc,
Jan 10 02:07:24 <holycow> you know if you come out and put a business in a box ina  phone
Jan 10 02:07:29 <holycow> a lot of small business will start with that
Jan 10 02:07:31 <holycow> don't forget
Jan 10 02:07:38 <raster> yup
Jan 10 02:07:39 <raster> i know
Jan 10 02:07:39 <holycow> we can also sell them back end stuff to for cheap and make a good profit
Jan 10 02:07:47 <raster> you'd sell a lot of ones-ies and two-sies
Jan 10 02:07:49 <holycow> all the open source accounting, etc. is ready to go
Jan 10 02:08:07 <mpr> http://i.gizmodo.com/5125930/sony-vaio-p-super-dont+call+it+a+netbook-hands-on
Jan 10 02:08:10 <holycow> what my business partner and i are doing is building our selves up to a point where we can start to package units of support for all of these products
Jan 10 02:08:17 <holycow> if you go, i can put all that on yoru phoen
Jan 10 02:08:20 <mpr> I'd say that'll beat the fujitsu mentioned earlier
Jan 10 02:08:28 <holycow> that TOTALLY changes the marketplace for a lot of our other clients as well
Jan 10 02:08:39 <holycow> mpr: i have one, i'd sell mine tomorrow if i had this
Jan 10 02:08:49 <raster> holycow: sounds good
Jan 10 02:08:57 <raster> i know theres lots of vertical market ti-ins to bne had
Jan 10 02:09:08 <Arg0naut> 10,000 phones sold an hour on average in india
Jan 10 02:09:09 <Arg0naut> http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Business/India_Business/10000_cell_phones_sold_in_India_every_hour_IDC/articleshow/3146110.cms
Jan 10 02:09:12 <raster> and lots of business like one-stop-shops that "set them up"
Jan 10 02:09:15 <holycow> i think i might know a money guy or two now tha ti think about it
Jan 10 02:09:20 <mpr> (still catching up on backlog, just had to mention that when I reached the fujitsu discussion :P)
Jan 10 02:09:24 <raster> they dont have the time or energy to bother - they have a business to worry about
Jan 10 02:09:25 <raster> not infra
Jan 10 02:09:32 <holycow> that might know other money people ... which could be interesting
Jan 10 02:09:42 <raster> thats generally the way of it
Jan 10 02:09:46 <holycow> raster: most of our cliensta are small to micro businesses
Jan 10 02:09:48 <raster> you know 1 guy who knwos another
Jan 10 02:09:49 <holycow> a few are approaching mid
Jan 10 02:09:52 <holycow> mid being 20mil plus
Jan 10 02:09:54 <raster> who knows someoen else who has big bucks
Jan 10 02:09:57 <holycow> most of them don't need windows
Jan 10 02:10:02 <holycow> and if they do it can be done over rdp
Jan 10 02:10:09 <holycow> i could easily convince a lot of them to go with this
Jan 10 02:10:10 <raster> and often they have monye friends too
Jan 10 02:10:17 <raster> that are linked to a venture fund
Jan 10 02:10:23 <holycow> with my client i have pull, their eyes would pop out at this 
Jan 10 02:10:24 <raster> or want to have an investment group
Jan 10 02:10:37 <raster> (angel group - though i think this is beyond angel funding)
Jan 10 02:10:49 <raster> well
Jan 10 02:10:52 <raster> for this u'd need a prototype
Jan 10 02:10:52 <Dave> well then, I hope you're ready to collect their eyeballs, holycow :)
Jan 10 02:10:56 <raster> and .. that means making one
Jan 10 02:11:00 <holycow> Dave: lol
Jan 10 02:11:03 <raster> and that means.. designing and producing it
Jan 10 02:11:05 <Dave> bring a bucket :D
Jan 10 02:11:12 <holycow> raster: so 20k up front?
Jan 10 02:11:22 <raster> once that exists... it shouldnt be hard to garner interest with something approacing a nice case
Jan 10 02:11:35 <raster> and some youtube action of showing it working
Jan 10 02:11:38 <raster> holycow: got that
Jan 10 02:11:44 <raster> holycow: and more to spare
Jan 10 02:12:07 <holycow> lol makes me feel poor
Jan 10 02:12:08 <holycow> heh
Jan 10 02:12:12 <raster> its the next round that troubles me
Jan 10 02:12:25 <raster> holycow: i've been saving to buy a house
Jan 10 02:12:29 <raster> and thats not to put a deposit
Jan 10 02:12:30 <holycow> well i used to be a graphic designer, i have an it and business background
Jan 10 02:12:32 <raster> when i say buy
Jan 10 02:12:33 <raster> i mean buy
Jan 10 02:12:34 <holycow> but fucking no time
Jan 10 02:12:54 <raster> been working post-university for over a decade
Jan 10 02:12:56 <holycow> raster: yeah i mean i'm not sure you should blow that on a gadget like this
Jan 10 02:12:59 <raster> so i've saves up some dosh
Jan 10 02:13:03 <holycow> although you know your odds better than anyone
Jan 10 02:13:12 <raster> it's a risk
Jan 10 02:13:14 <raster> i know it is
Jan 10 02:13:17 <raster> its a calculated risk
Jan 10 02:13:23 <raster> i'm not sinking everything i have
Jan 10 02:13:35 <raster> but i've set aside enough to do it
Jan 10 02:13:42 <raster> as i siad - been doing the research for a long time
Jan 10 02:13:47 <raster> i beliegve the odds are good
Jan 10 02:13:57 <raster> chances are that u'd produce a 1st gen
Jan 10 02:14:06 <raster> and probably captrue a niche market of nerrds
Jan 10 02:14:07 <holycow> well i'm willing to help, i have no idea how but
Jan 10 02:14:08 <raster> and fanboys
Jan 10 02:14:13 <raster> and vertical business markets
Jan 10 02:14:18 <holycow> i'm sure there are alot of people here that would be hugely interested too
Jan 10 02:14:19 <raster> you'd survive ok on that to do a 2nd gen
Jan 10 02:14:38 <raster> then 2nd gen would add missing things and break into a broader market
Jan 10 02:14:40 <holycow> i mean you are giving them a full stack linux machine with no bullshit, and hopefully a working phoen app can be had someewhere down the raod
Jan 10 02:14:48 <raster> at that point chances are someone will be eyeing you for a buyout
Jan 10 02:14:51 <holycow> if you read the mailing lists thats what everyone wants
Jan 10 02:14:55 <raster> as you have something unique they dont
Jan 10 02:14:57 <holycow> install ubuntu / debian and fucking go
Jan 10 02:15:00 <raster> and its cheaper to just buy you
Jan 10 02:15:02 <holycow> with a working phone app
Jan 10 02:15:02 <raster> while u are small
Jan 10 02:15:09 <raster> that'd probably be 3 years down the track
Jan 10 02:15:11 <holycow> yeah totally
Jan 10 02:15:19 <holycow> you could probably sell out for a few mill
Jan 10 02:15:25 <holycow> which buys th ehouse and time for the next gadget
Jan 10 02:15:30 <raster> hahaha
Jan 10 02:15:34 <raster> probably
Jan 10 02:15:36 <raster> tho i'd stay
Jan 10 02:15:37 <holycow> i think there is enough potential here to not only make the device
Jan 10 02:15:41 <raster> as long as i get to kepe doing the stuff
Jan 10 02:15:42 <Slaxxer> o no   here we go
Jan 10 02:15:45 <holycow> but use the device to spawn lots of other business
Jan 10 02:16:01 <holycow> i'm betting mark shuttleworth would be interested because it does change the balance of power out there
Jan 10 02:16:07 <holycow> in his favour hugely
Jan 10 02:16:13 <holycow> its a race to the bottom and ubuntu is waiting
Jan 10 02:16:19 <holycow> don't forget also
Jan 10 02:16:22 <holycow> when looking for support
Jan 10 02:16:36 <holycow> like you said, pulling in community, pulling in tech guys and companies to support this
Jan 10 02:16:40 <raster> the problem is ubuntu itself is not that interesting
Jan 10 02:16:46 <raster> u need to replace the ui pretty much
Jan 10 02:16:50 <holycow> if its funded properly initially so the ecosystem can grow properly
Jan 10 02:16:53 <raster> and at that point - what do u have?
Jan 10 02:16:59 <holycow> i know A LOT of linux people in you wouldn't believe where
Jan 10 02:17:10 <raster> but thats a technicality
Jan 10 02:17:12 <raster> if it runs x
Jan 10 02:17:14 <raster> and x apps
Jan 10 02:17:15 <holycow> i have clients with offices in alberta in towns with 2000 people and i find linux guys there
Jan 10 02:17:25 <raster> and you have a linxu distro with yoru standard libs like gtk, qt etc.
Jan 10 02:17:28 <raster> the rest is moot
Jan 10 02:17:37 <holycow> well let me address that for a sec
Jan 10 02:17:52 <holycow> if you don't mind i have a theory of whats happening in that space so heres your chance to laugh
Jan 10 02:18:00 <raster> ok
Jan 10 02:18:00 <raster> :)
Jan 10 02:18:07 <holycow> what microsoft did brilliantly is they split the software from big iron in the 70's / 80's
Jan 10 02:18:34 <holycow> that split allowed further hardware splits down functional lines to allow us to now buy parts and put shit together and throw windows on and you have a cheap computer
Jan 10 02:18:40 <raster> (rememebr ubutnu - canonical is a gnome house - you come to them with anything that isnt entirely gnome centric and its going to not get much traction)
Jan 10 02:18:45 <holycow> yes i know
Jan 10 02:18:52 <holycow> now the next thing that i think is happening
Jan 10 02:18:57 <holycow> is as you pointed out
Jan 10 02:19:02 <holycow> there is a split between the os and toolkit
Jan 10 02:19:03 <SpeedEvil> linux=msdos
Jan 10 02:19:09 <holycow> this is happening with kde4
Jan 10 02:19:09 <SpeedEvil> oh
Jan 10 02:19:16 <holycow> kde4 is os agnostic
Jan 10 02:19:31 <holycow> you write your app for kde4, the framework handles hardware abstration for you
Jan 10 02:19:37 <holycow> thats the next split
Jan 10 02:19:38 <holycow> imho
Jan 10 02:19:59 <holycow> and my bet is that devices get just fast enough for kde4 to get just good enough to make this interesting
Jan 10 02:20:00 <holycow> now
Jan 10 02:20:07 <holycow> because the framework is abstracted and os agnostic
Jan 10 02:20:13 <holycow> what you get is enterprisey possibility
Jan 10 02:20:17 <holycow> kde is not well funded at all
Jan 10 02:20:19 <holycow> but if it were
Jan 10 02:20:32 <holycow> you could get all that policies and lockdown in a crossplatform way in nbo time
Jan 10 02:20:34 <holycow> no time even
Jan 10 02:20:45 <holycow> and with qt4.4 and up ... man its just looking sweet
Jan 10 02:20:50 <holycow> so the kicker is this arm shit
Jan 10 02:20:59 <holycow> its getting powerfull enough at low enough power consumption
Jan 10 02:21:06 <holycow> that a generic 'one os to rule them all'
Jan 10 02:21:10 <holycow> is probably around the corner
Jan 10 02:21:21 <holycow> when you are no longer tied to the os, who gives a shit about windows?
Jan 10 02:21:37 <holycow> write your apps on kde4 and run the on osx, bsd, arm, mips, whatever
Jan 10 02:21:44 <SpeedEvil> binary distribution mitigates against.
Jan 10 02:21:52 <holycow>  </theory>
Jan 10 02:21:55 <raster> well more people would argue that that is irrlevantand all that counts is the web browser
Jan 10 02:21:56 <raster> :)
Jan 10 02:22:10 <holycow> there is that too yes
Jan 10 02:22:19 <holycow> i think of kde4 as one app
Jan 10 02:22:21 <holycow> not many
Jan 10 02:22:31 <holycow> when you write one app for kde4 you are adding to the borg collective
Jan 10 02:22:39 <Dave> holycow, calm down sauron
Jan 10 02:22:52 <holycow> so the ability to use local and network resources is more flexible than just network agnostic ... but again :()
Jan 10 02:22:57 <holycow> :) what the hell do i know
Jan 10 02:23:09 <Slaxxer> u will be assimilated
Jan 10 02:23:16 * Dave pictures himself taking holycow's holy grail of a mobile platform to the fiery pits of mordor
Jan 10 02:23:19 <raster> :)
Jan 10 02:23:26 <holycow> rofl
Jan 10 02:23:31 <raster> and no reasy qt and kde libs cant ship on the device
Jan 10 02:23:49 <Slaxxer> with his short legged friend
Jan 10 02:23:52 <raster> everyone buys their software at the same open soruce store
Jan 10 02:23:58 <raster> no need to invovle ubuntu other than for marketing
Jan 10 02:24:11 <holycow> raster: i wouldn't ovelook that idea
Jan 10 02:24:15 <SpeedEvil> open source doesn't work for everything.
Jan 10 02:24:16 <Dave> slaxxin :)
Jan 10 02:24:17 <raster> and thats going to cause trouble as u will have to fight them and the gnome ui for a phone
Jan 10 02:24:24 <holycow> the store thing is more important than we open source zealots understand
Jan 10 02:24:27 <Dave> holy war!
Jan 10 02:24:29 <raster> also you do all the hard work anyway - tuning it to run on specific hardware
Jan 10 02:24:33 <SpeedEvil> Some people actually do have IP.
Jan 10 02:24:38 <holycow> iphone has proven that you can make a $.99 boobie shaking application and make a million
Jan 10 02:24:51 <Slaxxer> linux:the real deal
Jan 10 02:25:15 <holycow> raster: well there is a difference between 'supported / official platform' vesus 'opento hack'
Jan 10 02:25:35 <holycow> the open to hack guys just want open, you can't tell them what to do
Jan 10 02:25:41 <raster> correct
Jan 10 02:25:45 <holycow> there is a whole other group of people, and if you read ubuntu forums they are there'
Jan 10 02:25:49 <raster> they just want the ability to change anythign they want to change
Jan 10 02:25:53 <raster> from bootloader up
Jan 10 02:25:58 <holycow> that want to pay for a known working, my way or the highway, solution
Jan 10 02:25:58 <raster> and i know
Jan 10 02:26:04 <raster> that other group get the supported os
Jan 10 02:26:11 <raster> but ubuntu will make that tough
Jan 10 02:26:20 <raster> as u will need to redo the ui for the phone anyway
Jan 10 02:26:23 <raster> so once u've done that
Jan 10 02:26:27 <raster> "why bother"
Jan 10 02:26:32 <holycow> ohhhh i see what you are saying
Jan 10 02:26:32 <raster> OE already targets the cpu and device
Jan 10 02:26:33 <holycow> well yes
Jan 10 02:26:34 <raster> already works
Jan 10 02:26:36 <holycow> i thought about that
Jan 10 02:26:38 <raster> x is there
Jan 10 02:26:39 <raster> e works
Jan 10 02:26:39 <Dave> Sounds like West Side Story to me.
Jan 10 02:26:41 <holycow> thats a hard one and you are right
Jan 10 02:26:53 <raster> in fact e17 is the defacto defautl wm
Jan 10 02:26:54 <holycow> you cant use desktop apps on small form factors
Jan 10 02:26:54 <Slaxxer> i works
Jan 10 02:26:55 <raster> already
Jan 10 02:26:56 * cb22 needs to find a life. i'm sitting here at 4:40am reading a conversation between raster and holycow with interest
Jan 10 02:26:56 <raster> 0 work
Jan 10 02:26:57 <raster> :)
Jan 10 02:26:59 <holycow> the ui just isnt' designed for that
Jan 10 02:27:04 <Dave> ah
Jan 10 02:27:07 <raster> NO extra effort
Jan 10 02:27:10 <holycow> cb22 with great appologies :)
Jan 10 02:27:14 * Dave makes the popcorn
Jan 10 02:27:25 <raster> e already covers small form factor screens
Jan 10 02:27:30 * cb22 gets up and makes some too. seriously, i'm hungry
Jan 10 02:27:35 <raster> as wel as ffull desktop windowed setups
Jan 10 02:27:37 * SpeedEvil makes the flaming torches, and hands them out.
Jan 10 02:27:39 <holycow> raster: i don't think the window manager is the issue
Jan 10 02:27:41 <raster> without extra work :)
Jan 10 02:27:44 <holycow> its the application interface
Jan 10 02:27:45 <SpeedEvil> Who's got the pitchforks?
Jan 10 02:27:49 <raster> so now u have the apps
Jan 10 02:27:56 <raster> apps will ned to cram onto a small screen
Jan 10 02:28:02 <raster> so u're going to work hard on that
Jan 10 02:28:04 <cb22> SpeedEvil, you're in the UK right?
Jan 10 02:28:04 <holycow> you can hack in functionality to kwin or whatever you want to handle a small screen
Jan 10 02:28:05 <raster> at least for core apps
Jan 10 02:28:05 <SpeedEvil> and work consistently
Jan 10 02:28:09 <SpeedEvil> cb22_: yes
Jan 10 02:28:16 <holycow> the concept was nicely covered by the new release of the palm
Jan 10 02:28:22 <holycow> the old card idea from apple works well
Jan 10 02:28:31 <holycow> the functionality of the wim isnt the problem
Jan 10 02:28:32 <cb22> nice to know i'm not alone in my insomniacness
Jan 10 02:28:34 <raster> i know
Jan 10 02:28:37 <Dave> :)
Jan 10 02:28:40 <raster> but even within the card - u need to cram the ui in it
Jan 10 02:28:43 <holycow> the problem is open offices ui takes all the screen realestate
Jan 10 02:28:49 <SpeedEvil> cb22_: it
Jan 10 02:28:53 <holycow> so do all kde apps
Jan 10 02:28:56 <Dave> haha
Jan 10 02:28:56 <SpeedEvil> s only 2AM here
Jan 10 02:29:02 <Slaxxer> is the palm pre a generic linux that was forked?
Jan 10 02:29:23 <holycow> so the question is can desktop apps be rewritten easily enough to have some sort of switch that allows small formfactor display
Jan 10 02:29:26 <holycow> and how that would work i don't know
Jan 10 02:29:39 <holycow> i imagine kde4 having dual modality for their uis
Jan 10 02:29:43 <holycow> one is traditional desktop
Jan 10 02:29:57 <holycow> another is a card mode where the ui comes up on a keystroke or something and goes away
Jan 10 02:30:03 <cb22> SpeedEvil, meh. I was trying to comfort myself :p
Jan 10 02:30:09 <holycow> the second thing on a small device is this:
Jan 10 02:30:23 <holycow> yes its a desktop on a phone, but YOU DON'T USE A PHONE FOR A DESKTOP
Jan 10 02:30:32 <holycow> if you want frickin open office plug in and dont be a moron
Jan 10 02:30:47 <holycow> phones are for im, email, texting, browsing sports scorse and shit like that
Jan 10 02:30:51 <Dave> Beeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeep
Jan 10 02:30:52 <holycow> so what we can do is something like this
Jan 10 02:31:03 <Slaxxer> need a set of display glasses with this thing
Jan 10 02:31:07 <raster> holycow:  they can
Jan 10 02:31:12 <raster> but its a non-trivial effort
Jan 10 02:31:21 <holycow> write a daemon that is permisive only for the apps that work in celphone mode
Jan 10 02:31:22 <raster> so you probably need to break them up into libs vs ui
Jan 10 02:31:28 <holycow> and if they want to bypass it they haveto type in a code
Jan 10 02:31:28 <raster> ie libs that handle loading of .doc fiules
Jan 10 02:31:33 <Slaxxer> display goggles:)
Jan 10 02:31:34 <raster> and presenting them as editable
Jan 10 02:31:36 <raster> etc.
Jan 10 02:31:36 <holycow> all we need to do is protect the retards from the cluebies
Jan 10 02:31:58 <holycow> raster: kde4 probably already has the architecture for that sort of thing
Jan 10 02:32:14 <holycow> okay i'm pitching kde4 hard only because i spend so much time in gnome land :)
Jan 10 02:32:15 <holycow> lol
Jan 10 02:32:20 <holycow> its just a thought anywat
Jan 10 02:32:34 <holycow> but the problem of phone vs. desktop confustion is one of intent
Jan 10 02:32:35 <Slaxxer> ttp://www.i-glassesstore.com/ig-hrvpro.html
Jan 10 02:32:47 <holycow> buidling an app that protects the user from running a desktop app would do the trick
Jan 10 02:32:48 <holycow> and
Jan 10 02:33:14 <holycow> it would still give power users the power to do it and turn off the warning/permission buy sudo apt-get remove annoyingpermissionapp
Jan 10 02:33:15 <raster> you split them
Jan 10 02:33:20 <holycow> right
Jan 10 02:33:21 <raster> into desktop and phone variants
Jan 10 02:33:28 <raster> in desktop mode u can run anything
Jan 10 02:33:32 <holycow> right
Jan 10 02:33:34 <raster> in phone mode - desktop apps are hidden
Jan 10 02:33:38 <holycow> right
Jan 10 02:33:41 <holycow> even better
Jan 10 02:33:46 <raster> not hard to do
Jan 10 02:33:49 <raster> very easy
Jan 10 02:33:50 <holycow> unless you are a hacker in which case you turn it off and go
Jan 10 02:33:53 <holycow> yes
Jan 10 02:33:57 <holycow> can be done in some simple python
Jan 10 02:34:31 <holycow> and i wouldn't discount the gaming capabilities of this
Jan 10 02:34:33 <holycow> i mean
Jan 10 02:34:39 <holycow> lets think europeans
Jan 10 02:34:46 <holycow> they travel a lot on mass transit
Jan 10 02:34:53 <holycow> they sit there with their itunes or whatvnot
Jan 10 02:35:01 <holycow> if they could have games on their portable desktop
Jan 10 02:35:10 <holycow> that could be very interesting
Jan 10 02:35:11 <raster> if it runs in a window
Jan 10 02:35:12 <raster> it works
Jan 10 02:35:17 <holycow> yup
Jan 10 02:35:20 <raster> the rest is just icing
Jan 10 02:35:30 <raster> and the late on which its served
Jan 10 02:35:38 <holycow> and because of the usb ports its trivial to add a frame around the phone to add joystick capability
Jan 10 02:35:42 <holycow> like the psp
Jan 10 02:35:49 <holycow> which is nothing but a wrapper around an lcd
Jan 10 02:36:00 <holycow> and if you have a STORE TO BUY GOOD GAMES FROM
Jan 10 02:36:03 <holycow> thats even better
Jan 10 02:36:20 <holycow> i love open source but gaming has no incentive worthy to make it good enough to compete
Jan 10 02:36:45 <holycow> so by letting open source devs been them selves and allowing people to PURCHASE CONVENIENCE
Jan 10 02:36:53 <holycow> we can fund the device indefinately
Jan 10 02:37:03 <holycow> th eopen source guys will bitch about the store
Jan 10 02:37:04 <raster> yes
Jan 10 02:37:15 <raster> as most of a game is its ip in storey, gameplay and artowrk and music
Jan 10 02:37:15 <holycow> but the store is just a regular user willing trading away their freedom for convenience
Jan 10 02:37:23 <raster> and thsoe are thngis an open osurce model does not work with
Jan 10 02:37:24 <holycow> yup
Jan 10 02:37:27 <holycow> nope
Jan 10 02:37:39 <holycow> and i'm a zealot
Jan 10 02:37:40 <holycow> lol
Jan 10 02:37:45 <holycow> truth hurts but thats a fact
Jan 10 02:37:54 <raster> and yes - get downloadable apps
Jan 10 02:38:00 <raster> ge they tricketys, games or whatevre
Jan 10 02:38:01 <raster> for $0
Jan 10 02:38:05 <holycow> yup
Jan 10 02:38:08 <raster> or for any price the person wats to sell them at
Jan 10 02:38:13 <raster> simply provide a usable front-end
Jan 10 02:38:14 <holycow> yup
Jan 10 02:38:21 <raster> even better
Jan 10 02:38:23 <holycow> i will add one little insight in terms of my research
Jan 10 02:38:28 <holycow> this is important i think
Jan 10 02:38:32 <raster> set up a deal with the telco
Jan 10 02:38:34 <holycow> apple and nintendo understand one thing:
Jan 10 02:38:38 <holycow> you haveto control the user experience
Jan 10 02:38:39 <raster> u either offer a credit card #
Jan 10 02:38:40 <holycow> that means
Jan 10 02:38:45 <holycow> you haveto control the distrigution channel
Jan 10 02:38:49 <raster> or... telco gets to put your purchases on your bill
Jan 10 02:38:52 <holycow> which means you haveto control the quality of software
Jan 10 02:38:54 <raster> telco gets a cut
Jan 10 02:39:00 <raster> telcos will be most happy to do that
Jan 10 02:39:00 <raster> :)
Jan 10 02:39:19 <holycow> now i'm not sure if one can actually do this on this device, but iphone and nintenod prove taht you can't let just any bullshit software in the store
Jan 10 02:39:46 <holycow> the shareware half assed crap actually is a detriment 
Jan 10 02:39:52 <holycow> its something known as the paradox of choice
Jan 10 02:40:09 <holycow> the more choice you have the less you have ... i'd haveto dig up some info on it but you can google it if you never heard of it
Jan 10 02:40:11 <raster> you shouldnt disallow it
Jan 10 02:40:17 <raster> just it requires manual effort
Jan 10 02:40:30 <raster> the streamlines "1 click to buy and download" would be quality assured
Jan 10 02:40:34 <holycow> i guess there are many ways to slice a cat so even that can be handled
Jan 10 02:40:44 <holycow> maybe we can do something like top tier product which is easy to get
Jan 10 02:40:58 <holycow> and all the shit goes into some other category that is harder to naviagate to
Jan 10 02:40:59 <holycow> and
Jan 10 02:41:08 <raster> all possible
Jan 10 02:41:13 <holycow> we incentivise directly the devs to do a better job to get out of the shit box
Jan 10 02:41:23 <holycow> something like that yeah
Jan 10 02:41:24 <raster> tho right now - far from the problem space
Jan 10 02:41:24 <Arg0naut> good products go at the front of the store;)
Jan 10 02:41:34 <holycow> VERY far
Jan 10 02:41:38 <holycow> Arg0naut: right exactly
Jan 10 02:41:41 <raster> all moot until you have a working platform
Jan 10 02:41:46 <holycow> lol yes
Jan 10 02:41:51 <raster> that there is just a question of time and software
Jan 10 02:41:55 <holycow> but it does outline possible strategies
Jan 10 02:41:58 <raster> and not to ohard to do
Jan 10 02:42:07 <raster> yes - of course
Jan 10 02:42:12 <raster> but now we go into way too many details
Jan 10 02:42:21 <holycow> yeah okay so
Jan 10 02:42:25 <raster> u have a way to download, browse, preview and pay for apps
Jan 10 02:42:25 <holycow> back to hardware
Jan 10 02:42:29 <holycow> whats next? 
Jan 10 02:42:30 <holycow> lol :)
Jan 10 02:42:37 <raster> that by definition means only a certain number fit on yoru screen at a time
Jan 10 02:42:40 <raster> u need to organise
Jan 10 02:42:44 <raster> so u can organsie by quality
Jan 10 02:42:48 <raster> or price
Jan 10 02:42:51 <raster> or popularity
Jan 10 02:42:53 <raster> or...
Jan 10 02:42:56 <raster> pretyt moot
Jan 10 02:42:57 <raster> :)
Jan 10 02:42:59 <holycow> hehe yeah
Jan 10 02:44:00 <holycow> i hope your logging this
Jan 10 02:44:01 <holycow> i'm not :)
Jan 10 02:44:05 <holycow> lol 
Jan 10 02:44:08 <Tm_T> I am
Jan 10 02:44:15 <raster> xchat logs everything
Jan 10 02:44:16 <raster> :)
Jan 10 02:44:24 <Tm_T> raster: so does my irssi
Jan 10 02:44:27 <Tm_T> <3
Jan 10 02:44:31 <holycow> lots of good brainstorming
Jan 10 02:44:36 <holycow> raster: so what do you need next?
Jan 10 02:44:41 <raster> and my xchat logs get rsynced along with config etc. from box to box
Jan 10 02:44:46 <raster> holycow: prototype
Jan 10 02:44:54 <holycow> if you get me a name i can make a website, and a wiki and such
Jan 10 02:44:57 <Tm_T> like to have neat statistics from this channel?
Jan 10 02:44:59 <raster> and entry into financing
Jan 10 02:45:00 <raster> actually
Jan 10 02:45:02 <raster> i need a company
Jan 10 02:45:03 <raster> :)
Jan 10 02:45:08 <raster> already got name
Jan 10 02:45:13 <raster> already got website
Jan 10 02:45:20 <holycow> sweet
Jan 10 02:45:22 <raster> working on company legal setup - at least for now
Jan 10 02:45:28 <raster> working on components
Jan 10 02:45:28 <holycow> oh cool
Jan 10 02:45:32 <Arg0naut> so you just need VC's?
Jan 10 02:45:32 <raster> signing nda's
Jan 10 02:45:36 <mpr> have you decided on the country of incorporation yet?-)
Jan 10 02:45:40 <raster> already lined up prototype production
Jan 10 02:45:46 <holycow> north korea
Jan 10 02:45:49 <holycow> *giggle*
Jan 10 02:45:52 <raster> got dev boards already here and on the way for testring components
Jan 10 02:46:06 <raster> mpr: well for now i was going for offshor tax haven
Jan 10 02:46:07 <raster> :)
Jan 10 02:46:08 <Tm_T> holycow: Finland ofcourse
Jan 10 02:46:13 <holycow> hehe
Jan 10 02:46:22 <mpr> north korea would probably give very special treatment to anyone with raster's tech and language skills :)
Jan 10 02:46:24 <Tm_T> 'tis where Nokia is
Jan 10 02:46:35 <holycow> also
Jan 10 02:46:41 <mpr> raster: which one
Jan 10 02:46:46 <holycow> some of this can probably be financed through govt subsidies if raster is in eu
Jan 10 02:46:49 <raster> seychelles
Jan 10 02:46:54 <holycow> they seem to go for things like this
Jan 10 02:46:57 <holycow> i don't know about us
Jan 10 02:47:00 <raster> i can move to the eu any time
Jan 10 02:47:04 <holycow> canada does help out too
Jan 10 02:47:14 <raster> i'm an eu citizen
Jan 10 02:47:19 <holycow> right on
Jan 10 02:47:44 <raster> but i'm in sydney atm
Jan 10 02:47:49 <raster> i've contemplated singapore actually
Jan 10 02:48:09 <holycow> well realistically you want to be close to production
Jan 10 02:48:14 <raster> the govt will match private funding up to $300k
Jan 10 02:48:20 <holycow> really?
Jan 10 02:48:25 <holycow> that could be a hell of a way to start
Jan 10 02:48:28 <raster> check out singapored edb
Jan 10 02:48:31 <holycow> wow you've done your research
Jan 10 02:48:36 <raster> its a govt run but private investment firm
Jan 10 02:48:41 <raster> their charter is to invest in shit
Jan 10 02:48:48 <raster> (to put it simply)
Jan 10 02:49:01 <raster> so if i can find 300k of privfate money
Jan 10 02:49:05 <holycow> well vietnam just mandated all open source everywhere in govt
Jan 10 02:49:05 <raster> 300k of edb money will come in too
Jan 10 02:49:11 <raster> so you double your money
Jan 10 02:49:14 <holycow> you know that could be one target for your device as well
Jan 10 02:49:15 <raster> of course in return for a stake
Jan 10 02:49:15 <holycow> infact
Jan 10 02:49:23 <raster> singapre actualyl does production
Jan 10 02:49:34 <raster> but tis close to most high-volume production facilities in se asia
Jan 10 02:49:40 <holycow> right
Jan 10 02:49:41 <raster> its possibly one of the better places
Jan 10 02:49:46 <raster> sg, hk, tw
Jan 10 02:49:54 <raster> also sg is englishspeaking
Jan 10 02:49:58 <raster> modern and civilised
Jan 10 02:50:01 <holycow> the point above was that vietnam could even potentially be a targe market too
Jan 10 02:50:13 <raster> so you make no sacrifices going there
Jan 10 02:50:21 <holycow> neat, didn't know that
Jan 10 02:50:24 <raster> beyond the "well laws are a bit picky about littering and drugs"
Jan 10 02:50:29 <raster> and its hot and humid 365 days a year
Jan 10 02:50:30 <mpr> I can probably promise at least $20k-$40k to raster's startup no questions asked :P
Jan 10 02:50:48 <holycow> lol
Jan 10 02:50:56 <raster> mpr:  i've earmarked about 120k of my own for it
Jan 10 02:51:00 <mpr> and maybe try to find more financing from finland if they're allowed to ask questions :)
Jan 10 02:51:30 <raster> i intend to not allow vultrue-capital to destroy it
Jan 10 02:51:44 <raster> as it has so many other startups
Jan 10 02:51:45 * rooly sighs
Jan 10 02:51:45 <holycow> yeah you haveto be carefull
Jan 10 02:51:46 <rooly> i gave in
Jan 10 02:51:47 <khaije1> what is sg?
Jan 10 02:51:49 <rooly> i got a new phone
Jan 10 02:51:53 <raster> khaije1:  singapore
Jan 10 02:52:01 <khaije1> ah ok
Jan 10 02:52:03 <holycow> they always take controlling stake and then fuck up the startup
Jan 10 02:52:05 <raster> holycow:  i am about as careful as they come
Jan 10 02:52:08 <holycow> heh, that rhymes
Jan 10 02:52:10 <raster> i have done a lot of research
Jan 10 02:52:25 <raster> business side, the funding, legal bits, location, the tech, etc. etc.
Jan 10 02:52:35 <raster> thats why i'm willing to pony up a fair bit of $ for it
Jan 10 02:52:40 <raster> i've done my due diligence
Jan 10 02:52:41 <Slaxxer> rooly?
Jan 10 02:52:43 <rooly> will you ever forgive me, raster?
Jan 10 02:52:51 <rooly> you too, Slaxxer
Jan 10 02:52:54 <rooly> i'm sorry
Jan 10 02:52:55 <Slaxxer> htc?
Jan 10 02:52:55 <raster> rooly:  which one?
Jan 10 02:53:02 <rooly> a crappy nokia 'go' phhone
Jan 10 02:53:07 <raster> hahaha
Jan 10 02:53:08 <raster> cheapo
Jan 10 02:53:13 <rooly> yeah
Jan 10 02:53:13 <raster> nothng to forgive
Jan 10 02:53:15 <rooly> 15$
Jan 10 02:53:16 <raster> get what works for you
Jan 10 02:53:18 <raster> always
Jan 10 02:53:25 <raster> the customer is the most important bit
Jan 10 02:53:29 <raster> its YOUR money
Jan 10 02:53:41 <holycow> does everyone need x on their phone?
Jan 10 02:53:43 <holycow> hehe :)
Jan 10 02:53:48 <rooly> mostly, i got it because i upgraded to qt4.3.3
Jan 10 02:53:48 <Slaxxer> 50 cents a minuit
Jan 10 02:53:49 <raster> holycow:  hell yeah!
Jan 10 02:53:50 <raster> :)
Jan 10 02:53:52 <rooly> and...well...
Jan 10 02:53:56 <rooly> i stopped being able to dial
Jan 10 02:54:08 <rooly> raster: please, tell everyone you know: do NOT upgrade to 4.3.3
Jan 10 02:54:21 <Slaxxer> reflashing would have been much cheaper
Jan 10 02:54:22 <Arg0naut> holycow: http://tinyurl.com/9bfxxd canada's business grants and loans
Jan 10 02:54:33 <rooly> Slaxxer: possibly, but now i have 2 sim cards
Jan 10 02:54:38 <holycow> Arg0naut: huh
Jan 10 02:54:40 <holycow> wow neat!
Jan 10 02:54:42 <holycow> thx dude :)
Jan 10 02:54:50 <Arg0naut> np
Jan 10 02:54:57 <kd8ikt> in zhone gps whats P/H/V-DOP ?  mine says 2.08/1.2/3.03
Jan 10 02:55:53 <holycow> heh great site!
Jan 10 02:57:17 <holycow> raster the other thing you got going for you is all the other companies doing research for you
Jan 10 02:57:34 <holycow> iphone, blackberry, the new pal and moko all are approaching these sorts of problems from a different angle
Jan 10 02:57:38 <holycow> some got closer than others
Jan 10 02:57:47 <holycow> you get a chance to take that knowledge to the bank as well
Jan 10 02:58:17 <raster> rooly:  umm ok :)
Jan 10 02:58:41 <raster> yup
Jan 10 02:58:43 <raster> bingo
Jan 10 02:58:51 <raster> also - i'm using parts that already have drivers
Jan 10 02:59:05 <raster> the only part that doesnt.. is the touchscreen
Jan 10 02:59:07 <holycow> raster: if i could add one more point
Jan 10 02:59:09 <raster> but thats fairly simple
Jan 10 02:59:17 <raster> everything else already has linux drivers complete or mostly done
Jan 10 02:59:19 <holycow> depending on how you work things out
Jan 10 02:59:34 <raster> that means the base is already working and "stable" :)
Jan 10 02:59:42 <holycow> the one thing i appreciated steve jobs for is his understanding that aesthetics matter a lot more than people want to admit
Jan 10 02:59:53 <raster> i know
Jan 10 02:59:53 <holycow> i'm an i.t. guy and i can live with ugly things
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Sat Jan 10 02:59:56 2009