**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Sat Jan 10 02:59:57 2009 Jan 10 03:00:04 do *I* look like someone who doesnt care abotu aesthetics? Jan 10 03:00:05 :) Jan 10 03:00:07 but even my eye kinda gives more credence to a device that looks better Jan 10 03:00:22 haha well your on irc in monotype Jan 10 03:00:24 hard to tell :) Jan 10 03:00:33 holycow: www.enlightenment.org Jan 10 03:00:38 need i say more Jan 10 03:00:40 oh wait fuck Jan 10 03:00:44 you are THAT raster? Jan 10 03:00:46 raster = steve jobs - douchiness Jan 10 03:00:46 yes Jan 10 03:00:57 that raster Jan 10 03:01:03 raster: hahaha dude i love e Jan 10 03:01:04 seriously Jan 10 03:01:10 now i understand your e comments Jan 10 03:01:14 hehehehe Jan 10 03:01:23 so.. as i was saying Jan 10 03:01:25 undesrtand my kde4 comments from the perspective of 'application framework' Jan 10 03:01:29 dont worry about the aesthetics Jan 10 03:01:29 :) Jan 10 03:01:36 and i understand them Jan 10 03:01:37 :) Jan 10 03:01:43 and 'needing my corporate clients to eventually have framework level acls and plicies built in' Jan 10 03:01:44 not unfamiliar with it all Jan 10 03:01:45 :) Jan 10 03:01:56 gnome doesn't even come close ... i don't know where e fits in there Jan 10 03:01:56 i've done corproate Jan 10 03:02:05 worked at morgan stanley for a while Jan 10 03:02:08 yeah well if you are that raster then fuckit Jan 10 03:02:18 the device will look splendiferous Jan 10 03:02:19 i've done medium Jan 10 03:02:19 :) Jan 10 03:02:20 done small Jan 10 03:02:28 Arg0naut: i gotta agree with you Jan 10 03:02:31 it wont be too bad i hope Jan 10 03:02:50 Arg0naut: douchy to the core, but you gotta admit he cant draw but he understood th eimportants of logotype oh so very early on Jan 10 03:02:53 cases are hard to make themable Jan 10 03:03:02 but - i had some ideas Jan 10 03:03:10 that might be going too far Jan 10 03:03:18 first would be to provide all the case modelling in a way easy to work with Jan 10 03:03:28 i don't know i mean i think the idea is a combination of elegenace and consistency Jan 10 03:03:29 i intend to do a prortotype case and i'm using blender Jan 10 03:03:34 i know your device will do everything Jan 10 03:03:36 that makes it easy to say ":here - have my .blend file' Jan 10 03:03:37 holycow: most definetly, he recognized for most users the UI is the program Jan 10 03:03:49 so whatever it looks like it should always look like an 'e' device or whatever Jan 10 03:03:52 shapeways.. in fact support and encoruage blender use for sending them their files Jan 10 03:03:56 blender has an exporter Jan 10 03:03:59 Arg0naut: i totally agree with you Jan 10 03:04:03 so.. let people take it and make their own cases Jan 10 03:04:06 send them to shapeways to print Jan 10 03:04:11 why not? Jan 10 03:04:16 yeah why not Jan 10 03:04:20 good point Jan 10 03:04:27 i mean i can see my slef doing something like that in blender Jan 10 03:04:32 of ocurs it will come with a default Jan 10 03:04:33 with a dragon theme kinda snaking around Jan 10 03:04:45 you could totally do some amazing things Jan 10 03:04:53 actually blender is a pita Jan 10 03:04:54 plus ... what is that sites name ... Jan 10 03:04:57 but i'll figure it out Jan 10 03:04:58 :) Jan 10 03:05:09 the one with the custom cases ... oh minitx.whatever Jan 10 03:05:23 the thing about that site is that its a GREAT way to market minitix Jan 10 03:05:37 a lot of people bought minitx just because they saw cases and wanted to do their own Jan 10 03:05:48 you are right you could do something along those lines as well Jan 10 03:05:52 blenders not to bad, it's just learning those keyboard shortcuts Jan 10 03:06:00 i like blender Jan 10 03:06:04 but then i like gimp Jan 10 03:06:06 :) Jan 10 03:06:31 * rooly now likes e Jan 10 03:06:35 raster: i ran e17 for a while, brillian piece of work Jan 10 03:06:37 i learnt 3dmax first, so when it comes to 2d modelling i;m a gui junky Jan 10 03:06:44 *3d Jan 10 03:06:48 Arg0naut: me too Jan 10 03:06:50 heh Jan 10 03:06:57 in principle Jan 10 03:07:15 when comes e1.0? Jan 10 03:08:00 holycow: thats just another angle for the same thing Jan 10 03:08:17 i think his uber phone comes first :) Jan 10 03:08:17 hehehe Jan 10 03:08:17 do stuff in a way where you do not rule out any market if u can Jan 10 03:08:19 increase your exposure Jan 10 03:08:22 raster, the great thing about a device like yours would be that if i want Jan 10 03:08:23 its a niche market anyway Jan 10 03:08:27 so attack multilpe niches Jan 10 03:08:28 i can actually run kde4 when its ready Jan 10 03:08:30 or gnome for now Jan 10 03:08:34 yup Jan 10 03:08:36 or keep e that comes with it Jan 10 03:08:38 its fast enouhg to anyway Jan 10 03:08:43 ti really won't matter Jan 10 03:08:46 chances are u'll have full gnome or kde packages for it Jan 10 03:08:51 so yeah i dont care Jan 10 03:08:52 and Jan 10 03:08:52 inf act already in oe... Jan 10 03:08:55 so its moot Jan 10 03:08:57 :) Jan 10 03:09:05 there is no reason for you not to use any profits you start making to fund e dev as well Jan 10 03:09:07 at that point i'm agnostic Jan 10 03:09:10 the os is on sd card Jan 10 03:09:16 who knows maybe you have a few tricks up yoru sleeve no one knows about yhet Jan 10 03:09:25 peolpe will provide lots of sdcard tarball downloads to throw onto your sd to have your own custom os Jan 10 03:10:03 i think it would be easier to just have a tarball itself be the OS Jan 10 03:10:06 heh i was just thinking what i ran e on Jan 10 03:10:24 i had to bring back some old p300 laptops for a while a few years back to get another year out of them Jan 10 03:10:34 e was the only thing fast enought that would run on them Jan 10 03:10:55 raster: totally Jan 10 03:10:56 * rooly is gonna go activate his new sim card Jan 10 03:11:33 raster: when you are ready lets talk about seeing if we can tie in some business end of things Jan 10 03:11:38 i'm just small fry Jan 10 03:11:52 but i'd like to offer a device like that in exactly the use case described above Jan 10 03:12:00 i can see bundling it in a lot of way Jan 10 03:12:05 actually here is another angle for you Jan 10 03:12:12 i can see giving away the phone Jan 10 03:12:19 for a monthly service agreement Jan 10 03:12:34 that pays off the device and provides a service company with ongoing revenue Jan 10 03:12:46 we ding full price if they drop it Jan 10 03:13:07 raster: okay i'm convinced Jan 10 03:13:26 there are enough ways to slice this thing up into various business models to actually make it viable Jan 10 03:13:31 to make it big is a whole other thing Jan 10 03:13:42 rooly: well i was meaning a tarball of the os Jan 10 03:13:44 ie Jan 10 03:13:46 but i'm convinced you have something pretty dead on target her Jan 10 03:13:54 tar zcvf my-os.tgz / Jan 10 03:14:05 (wel u'd also need a kernel image too) Jan 10 03:14:37 holycow: on tyhe business side - i'm open to many thnigs Jan 10 03:14:48 basically the goal is to up the # of untis that can be shipped Jan 10 03:14:54 that in turn can open the way to lower prices Jan 10 03:15:04 and of coruse - more investment Jan 10 03:15:20 allright man Jan 10 03:15:23 the problem with givign away is Jan 10 03:15:25 i'm a fn already Jan 10 03:15:26 u have to FINANCE that Jan 10 03:15:32 and thats tough as a small company Jan 10 03:15:35 u need to sell Jan 10 03:15:39 and get back your money asap Jan 10 03:15:56 only telcos and big companies have the clout to get good financing terms for that Jan 10 03:15:57 on $400 devices its doable Jan 10 03:16:07 as part of a service agreement you can get it back in 4 months Jan 10 03:16:14 no sell 10,000 of them Jan 10 03:16:23 find 4mil to "give away devices" Jan 10 03:16:24 :) Jan 10 03:16:27 well that but there are companies that financy small business expenditures Jan 10 03:16:37 sure Jan 10 03:16:37 yeah Jan 10 03:16:40 they don't do $400 a pop but i know a few guys in that business Jan 10 03:16:43 VC's Jan 10 03:16:43 in todays world thats tough Jan 10 03:16:44 it might open up a new avenue Jan 10 03:16:56 and they wouldn't be financing me they would be financing the client indirectly Jan 10 03:17:03 in the end - thats what the front end business do Jan 10 03:17:07 raster: you might be right Jan 10 03:17:08 ie YOU guy 100 of them Jan 10 03:17:12 YOU find the financing Jan 10 03:17:17 i haven't actually tried it or anything Jan 10 03:17:19 YOU give them for $0 to clients with a support deal Jan 10 03:17:23 YOU get the rewards Jan 10 03:17:23 :) Jan 10 03:17:33 but you also take the financin burden/risk Jan 10 03:17:43 there is a problem with a company trying to do too much at once Jan 10 03:17:45 as a startup Jan 10 03:17:48 you MUSt FOCUS Jan 10 03:17:50 i think there are a few ways to balance the risk there as well Jan 10 03:17:51 i mean Jan 10 03:17:56 FOCUS on your 1 shot to make it Jan 10 03:17:58 the one product Jan 10 03:17:58 i fyou can have them paid off in 6 months Jan 10 03:18:19 after that its only service expense, its like a mortgage Jan 10 03:18:21 side-business, vertical markets and funky "pay it later" deals are goign to distract :( Jan 10 03:18:39 all you are doing for the client is deferring payment at a lower up front cost but bigger back end cost Jan 10 03:18:51 not saying you should do it :) Jan 10 03:18:51 sure Jan 10 03:18:55 and then clients who stop paying Jan 10 03:19:00 you eed to find debt collectors Jan 10 03:19:04 chase them up for money Jan 10 03:19:08 well i agree with you, you always want clients to pay up front Jan 10 03:19:14 and now u are into legal terriotry hiring lawyers Jan 10 03:19:16 etc. Jan 10 03:19:16 but the whole cel phone business is exactly what we are talking about Jan 10 03:19:22 yup Jan 10 03:19:23 the service contract pays for the phone Jan 10 03:19:23 i know Jan 10 03:19:29 at least for now the teclso can do that Jan 10 03:19:32 in fact Jan 10 03:19:35 they are more than happy to Jan 10 03:19:39 they aklready have the infra Jan 10 03:19:43 the shops Jan 10 03:19:44 all those guys are doing is therefore is borrowing vast sums of money to generate market penetration using this sort of scam Jan 10 03:19:46 the financing Jan 10 03:19:47 i agree with you Jan 10 03:19:48 the legal depts Jan 10 03:20:05 and the service they can cut off on non-payment as a way of kicking you in the bum Jan 10 03:20:18 maybe later Jan 10 03:20:24 well those are real risks Jan 10 03:20:26 on the other end Jan 10 03:20:29 but i'm not into the "totally sell to the telco only" Jan 10 03:20:36 there will be people who dont want it locked Jan 10 03:20:42 the risk of NOT doing that is yoru competitor doing it and taking all marketshare before you do Jan 10 03:20:49 though as such - why lock it other than for exclusivity Jan 10 03:20:54 if u have a contract - u have one Jan 10 03:20:54 so its the just a larger margin bet Jan 10 03:21:04 then again telco cant cut off service to force u to pay Jan 10 03:21:09 as u can just get another telco/sim card Jan 10 03:21:11 anyway Jan 10 03:21:22 and yes Jan 10 03:21:25 its a bet Jan 10 03:21:35 but for a first product - i'd want to go for the "Sell it" way Jan 10 03:21:38 my usecase was giving the phone away to small businesses and financing it as part of an ongoing service contract Jan 10 03:21:57 they couldnt' exactly afford us to cut off their service contract as all their data is on our hardware Jan 10 03:22:05 holycow: l this is where peolpe like you come in Jan 10 03:22:08 you alreayd know the businesses Jan 10 03:22:23 you already do the due-diligence to see if the business WILL fulfil its contract obligations Jan 10 03:22:29 and you do the legal Jan 10 03:22:32 any tricks to getting fennec usable or is it not there yet? Jan 10 03:22:34 if you do it Jan 10 03:22:37 the profits are yours Jan 10 03:22:57 oh yes totally Jan 10 03:23:04 it wouldnt be financed by you :) Jan 10 03:23:11 i'm happy to have you make your $ Jan 10 03:23:21 it could be an angle you work with your downline to establish Jan 10 03:23:27 i'm in this to finally have the phone i always wanted Jan 10 03:23:28 essentially having secondary sellers Jan 10 03:23:41 and that i know for sure a mountain of nerds want too Jan 10 03:23:45 on the other hand if you find the business practice a bad one you may want to stiuplate that no such thing can ever happen with your devices Jan 10 03:23:52 in fact just NOT being iphone Jan 10 03:23:55 NOT being palm Jan 10 03:23:59 NOt being a bb is a selling point Jan 10 03:24:04 Arg0naut: correct Jan 10 03:24:09 well the idea would always be Jan 10 03:24:12 i buy from raster Jan 10 03:24:13 being a small player with a small # of untis out there makes you "unique" Jan 10 03:24:17 i do what the hell i want in terms of marketing Jan 10 03:24:19 your the onlyu guy at the pub with that phone Jan 10 03:24:29 you dont blend into the sheep Jan 10 03:24:29 raster: make it the MyPhone? Jan 10 03:24:31 you stand out Jan 10 03:24:36 however raster may want some inclusive part of that in exchange for a lower buy in for me Jan 10 03:24:37 and peolpe will want it JUST for that Jan 10 03:24:44 Arg0naut: lol, i actually like that Jan 10 03:25:04 holycow: well generally it's be a volume discount Jan 10 03:25:24 buy 1 phone - $X, buy10, $1 -5%, buy 100 $X-15%, by 1000 $X-30% Jan 10 03:25:25 etc. Jan 10 03:25:29 raster: all i can say right now is that moko comes close Jan 10 03:25:38 i'm in this channel watching the project very intensly Jan 10 03:25:41 so u get a lower price in retunr for buying more of them Jan 10 03:25:43 :) Jan 10 03:25:57 its on the way there Jan 10 03:25:58 but i can't buy yet for the ocmpany because its not quite what you and i described ... or rather you described with me cheering on Jan 10 03:26:03 the moko IS that phone for me... Jan 10 03:26:07 if you bring the product i'm very interested Jan 10 03:26:10 but i believe it likely wont delievr what at least i want Jan 10 03:26:12 nobody else in my world has one Jan 10 03:26:18 and only 3 other people know they exist Jan 10 03:26:40 ahhaha Jan 10 03:26:47 heh Jan 10 03:26:52 well i love the moko name Jan 10 03:27:00 there is so much you can do with the name Jan 10 03:27:55 from a marketing perspective i could have a ball with it Jan 10 03:28:09 my contention with the model names of the mokos is that they are not catchy in any way Jan 10 03:28:16 freerunner just doesn't strike me at all Jan 10 03:28:28 with moko i can do Jan 10 03:28:33 'free your iner moko' Jan 10 03:28:36 too long Jan 10 03:28:45 (freerunner) Jan 10 03:28:48 cool Jan 10 03:28:49 moko for life Jan 10 03:28:52 moko monkey Jan 10 03:28:55 mr.moko Jan 10 03:28:58 i mean on and on Jan 10 03:29:05 its just catchy, round, and friendly Jan 10 03:29:05 i was just going to call it the "i" Jan 10 03:29:11 i could do advertising for moko indefinately Jan 10 03:29:12 I dunno. "Brokenmoko" has a nice ring to it. Jan 10 03:29:19 why not call it the 'j' :p Jan 10 03:29:20 hehehe Jan 10 03:29:23 raster: call it e-on-f Jan 10 03:29:28 holymoko batman Jan 10 03:29:31 (first gen being the.. i1) Jan 10 03:29:36 Slaxxer: *sniker* Jan 10 03:29:42 i - got it! Jan 10 03:29:43 or better yet Jan 10 03:29:49 raster, call it the eon Jan 10 03:29:52 i - got milk Jan 10 03:29:52 i - lost it! Jan 10 03:29:53 cause its got e on it Jan 10 03:29:57 its not bad Jan 10 03:29:59 actually Jan 10 03:30:02 eon sounds good Jan 10 03:30:03 can you copyright i? Jan 10 03:30:05 to me the freerunner name could have good advertisements Jan 10 03:30:11 you can have advertising that goes like this Jan 10 03:30:14 i? Jan 10 03:30:14 holycow: u can trademark it Jan 10 03:30:16 next ad Jan 10 03:30:20 but only within limited contexts Jan 10 03:30:22 i! with a picture of the device Jan 10 03:30:31 okay i can see it Jan 10 03:30:40 people will say you are confusing it with iphone tho Jan 10 03:30:41 kind of plays on the "me" or "mii" etc. idea Jan 10 03:30:47 "i" Jan 10 03:30:48 apple kinda has the i thing going on Jan 10 03:30:53 true Jan 10 03:30:56 meh Jan 10 03:30:57 maybe eon is good Jan 10 03:30:58 not really Jan 10 03:31:05 ion? Jan 10 03:31:10 invokes a feeling of a long period of time Jan 10 03:31:13 its a window manager Jan 10 03:31:23 hence how its so clever Jan 10 03:31:25 moko is just brilliant Jan 10 03:31:26 cause its got e on it Jan 10 03:31:28 eon works with the e scheme Jan 10 03:31:29 :) Jan 10 03:31:33 it kinda has to evoke that sound and feeling Jan 10 03:31:34 oooo me love u long time Jan 10 03:31:54 pretty soon the plastic will be done Jan 10 03:32:33 honestly, i love items with clever names Jan 10 03:32:45 i like eon Jan 10 03:32:46 hmm Jan 10 03:32:49 its short Jan 10 03:32:57 easy to make into a logo Jan 10 03:32:59 and you can play off it really well Jan 10 03:33:18 enlightenment was a gcool name Jan 10 03:33:20 play with it you have time Jan 10 03:33:22 goo dmarketing Jan 10 03:33:23 oooo, i know, eon, with an arrow trailing to the right off the bottom of the e Jan 10 03:33:28 as it invoked feelings Jan 10 03:33:29 underlining the on Jan 10 03:33:34 unlike twm, fvwm, mwm etc. Jan 10 03:33:39 but its toolong Jan 10 03:33:44 i've learnt that bit of marketing Jan 10 03:33:51 chose short catchy names that invoke a feeling Jan 10 03:33:56 i'm terrible at naming things Jan 10 03:34:03 kde is finally getting the naming things right Jan 10 03:34:05 need a name? ask a rooly Jan 10 03:34:13 with plasm and plasmoids and such Jan 10 03:34:14 KHolyKow Jan 10 03:34:17 lol Jan 10 03:34:18 lol Jan 10 03:34:25 rooly: maybe Jan 10 03:34:30 my other fav app is alacarte Jan 10 03:34:33 gnomes menu editor Jan 10 03:34:39 no but really, its on of the things i'm really good at Jan 10 03:34:44 ir emembe when were were trying to pick names with the author Jan 10 03:34:54 alacarte was just perfect for that app Jan 10 03:35:23 raster: if anything its more important to be consistent Jan 10 03:35:34 and reinforce the positive aspects of the brand over and over Jan 10 03:35:39 apple isn't apple because of the name Jan 10 03:35:50 they are apple because they took something ordinary and framed it properly Jan 10 03:35:58 so frankly, you can probably go with eon Jan 10 03:36:07 you just haveto have the right people to finesse the brand Jan 10 03:36:32 it won't become eon without significant spending enayway, until then it will just be another brand Jan 10 03:36:42 so spend enormous efforst on it probably isn't necdssary Jan 10 03:37:01 i know Jan 10 03:37:03 afterall, steve nobs picked apple after no one at the company could choose a good name anyway Jan 10 03:37:07 just some thoughts Jan 10 03:37:12 but good to start with something good Jan 10 03:37:26 calling it butthair Jan 10 03:37:26 good name, easy to recognize logo Jan 10 03:37:31 no matter how much finesse Jan 10 03:37:34 you're screwed Jan 10 03:37:56 eon to evokes an image of ion engine on a space craft gliding near the speed of light through space Jan 10 03:37:58 i like it Jan 10 03:37:58 don't be so anal about things Jan 10 03:38:09 i think it is in the 'good enough'category at least Jan 10 03:38:12 * rooly propositions raster on a possible logo idea Jan 10 03:38:17 what cb22 said yeah Jan 10 03:38:22 raster: butthair says unqiue, yet affordable Jan 10 03:38:28 hehehehe Jan 10 03:38:33 Arg0naut: rofl Jan 10 03:38:47 holycow, my anal remark was @ butthair Jan 10 03:38:48 Arg0naut: i have toyed with the idea of comming out with a real product called 'smells like ass' Jan 10 03:38:52 hehehe Jan 10 03:38:54 a rather terrible pun :( Jan 10 03:38:55 okay, imagine this: eon, where the e uses the basic e logo, but the bottom of the e trails off 'forward', underlining the on Jan 10 03:39:04 cb22 oh hehe, works either way Jan 10 03:39:36 and people who understand it go 'hmph, thats clever' Jan 10 03:39:57 and everyone else says, "wow, what a great logo" Jan 10 03:39:58 that could work Jan 10 03:39:58 lots of ideas to be had Jan 10 03:39:59 i would focus on font work my self Jan 10 03:40:07 getting the font right and 'balanced' is probably the hardest thing Jan 10 03:40:36 didn't there used to be a website that demo'd the illume concept? is that still around? Jan 10 03:42:23 oh and i know it's probably pointless to ask stuff like this but is there any indication that OM realizes they'll need a hw refresh before any mainstream market push? Jan 10 03:43:13 yes, they are quite aware Jan 10 03:43:28 they're working on gta03 but from what I understand it still won't have 3g, just edge Jan 10 03:43:56 it seems like the huge amount of work that went into the freerunner should translate well to a new updated device Jan 10 03:43:59 the mailing lists remind them every day Jan 10 03:44:05 heheh Jan 10 03:44:35 * rooly still wishes people would understand how pointless 3g is Jan 10 03:44:41 ya i read SPM's email to the list but he is a little too poetic for my tastes most times Jan 10 03:44:56 rooly: do explain Jan 10 03:45:00 its dialup Jan 10 03:45:07 lol Jan 10 03:45:10 i had 3g in eu Jan 10 03:45:14 for surfing the web Jan 10 03:45:35 its not all bad but yeah twice as fast as dialup Jan 10 03:45:35 I don't see it pointless at all, w/ gta02 you can't have any connection at all if you go to e.g. japan with it Jan 10 03:45:37 its dialup with more bandwidth Jan 10 03:46:06 and w/ hspa the latencies aren't dialup-level anymore Jan 10 03:46:14 yeah, a few hundred times more bandwidth Jan 10 03:46:19 i would say its pointless if you are always in the office hooked up Jan 10 03:46:35 i could see it being usefull in teh field to look up phone numbers, browse a map Jan 10 03:46:47 access vpn and take inventory in an office via an ir plugged into the usb port Jan 10 03:46:48 i'd say its on par to maybe slow dsl Jan 10 03:46:54 *hint* *hint* raster Jan 10 03:46:55 :) Jan 10 03:47:02 rooly: precisely Jan 10 03:47:05 with an open device it might be possible to connect to a dedicated 3g provider via wlan or bt though Jan 10 03:47:10 that would be sweet Jan 10 03:47:11 the thing is consumers like quantitative, so even if they don't know what 3g is or even use it, they'll buy the phone in the similliar price range with 3g Jan 10 03:47:12 it depends on the usecase Jan 10 03:47:25 3g is also usefull in areas where it cheaper to bring in a 3g tower than run cable Jan 10 03:47:33 (like a device that could fit in a backpack) Jan 10 03:47:48 holycow: its improved a lot Jan 10 03:47:48 mediterranean coast is perfect example, they ahve a hell of time running cable through SOLID rock Jan 10 03:47:55 u probably had umts Jan 10 03:48:01 hehe :) Jan 10 03:48:08 hspa these days is about 10x the speed of umts Jan 10 03:48:14 (in good situations) Jan 10 03:48:20 but thats what wifi is for Jan 10 03:48:23 when u are at the office Jan 10 03:48:24 ah k. that could be true Jan 10 03:48:27 or.. a base station with usb Jan 10 03:48:33 usb ethernet tongles do the job Jan 10 03:48:39 yup totally Jan 10 03:48:42 you have multiple levels of access Jan 10 03:48:55 u also have bluetooth available too - it is pssible to route ip over bt Jan 10 03:48:56 i'm getting 1400ms pings with a 3g aircard, and 1200ms pings with my FR running qtopia Jan 10 03:48:59 so raster, timelines when we can start buying? Jan 10 03:49:00 :) Jan 10 03:49:02 hehehe Jan 10 03:49:45 dependent on too many things Jan 10 03:49:50 when lte comes the finnish operators will start using that in rural arears and 3g coverage will start beating gsm coverage Jan 10 03:49:50 but it'd need to be this year Jan 10 03:49:52 i'm buggin ya Jan 10 03:50:05 in 5 years they'll start taking down gsm coverage Jan 10 03:50:33 so it's not just about having a better data connection Jan 10 03:50:38 is there any way i can upgrade my phone without upgrading dropbear? Jan 10 03:50:46 cause i lose connection and the upgrade just dies Jan 10 03:50:59 and i have to start all over... Jan 10 03:51:01 * rooly sighs Jan 10 03:51:07 it's about making a phone that can get *any* connection at all world-wide Jan 10 03:51:13 rooly, try screen Jan 10 03:51:16 raster: for that 3d printing company what was the price per cm^3? Jan 10 03:51:16 or tmux Jan 10 03:51:35 opkg upgrade Jan 10 03:52:20 Arg0naut: yes Jan 10 03:52:34 depends on the plastic used Jan 10 03:52:39 but about $2/cm3 Jan 10 03:52:40 ah Jan 10 03:52:45 ty Jan 10 03:53:33 * rooly sighs Jan 10 03:53:45 opkg flag hold dropbear Jan 10 03:53:51 should work Jan 10 03:53:55 okay time to get some sleep Jan 10 03:54:03 http://www.shapeways.com/about/material-options Jan 10 03:54:04 raster: that was fun, thx for the brainstorm Jan 10 03:54:15 if you manage to pull it off you have our letter of intent Jan 10 03:54:18 $1.87 - $2.90 Jan 10 03:54:24 (pr cm^3) Jan 10 03:54:40 hol np :) Jan 10 03:54:46 i'm working on it Jan 10 04:03:46 sounds like backage Jan 10 04:03:59 rooly: http://www.rasterman.com/files/eon.png Jan 10 04:06:22 thats much better than my idea Jan 10 04:06:30 * rooly isn't good at visual aesthetics Jan 10 04:06:36 gj raster Jan 10 04:17:49 holy crap Jan 10 04:17:54 * rooly just realised something Jan 10 04:20:18 hi.i try to build shr, but the build files (i do a "make image) http://friendpaste.com/7IRVFjfVl7tmTmp17j5do Jan 10 04:25:44 I just installed Android on the NeoFreerunner and phone does not register on the network. Any ideas? Jan 10 04:25:59 it probably won't Jan 10 04:26:03 unless you're really really lucky Jan 10 04:26:05 not ready yet? Jan 10 04:26:15 not the release available in the wiki Jan 10 04:26:19 I even took my sim from my G1 phone and it did not work Jan 10 04:26:21 ah Jan 10 04:26:28 if you get the svn head, you might be able to Jan 10 04:26:48 you know the location Jan 10 04:26:51 checking weeky Jan 10 04:26:56 no, i don't actually Jan 10 04:27:11 check out koolu and see if you can find it from them Jan 10 04:36:39 Enlightenments Open Network Jan 10 04:36:58 its just a matter of time Jan 10 04:37:16 yer still on about that? Jan 10 04:37:53 rooly: thatw just what i quickly whipped up Jan 10 04:38:05 rooly: what did u realise? Jan 10 04:38:36 most phones don't have the ability to mux the gprs and gsm Jan 10 04:38:53 in fact, very very few have that ability Jan 10 04:38:59 i'd be suprised if the iphone could Jan 10 04:42:12 raster: do you have a smartphone at hand with working gsm/gprs? Jan 10 04:42:27 dunno Jan 10 04:42:39 i have a treo650 and a rokre6 in front of me Jan 10 04:42:49 but i never use data on them Jan 10 04:42:53 data charges are just nuts Jan 10 04:43:11 well, try this, do some function that causes the gsm to be used Jan 10 04:43:19 make a phone call to the local time&temperature Jan 10 04:43:34 if your 'g' in the corner is crossed out, then there is no mux functionality Jan 10 04:45:45 * rooly prays dropbear didn't upgrade Jan 10 05:33:16 is 2008.12 usable for main phone? Jan 10 05:34:28 i used it for a while Jan 10 05:34:56 looks much improved Jan 10 05:42:10 brian__: i've been thinking about waiting till android was up and running to have a fallback, but now with FSO and stuff there is so much progress it's really impressive Jan 10 05:42:24 it looks better than android, just for starters Jan 10 05:42:43 's because android isn't really open Jan 10 05:43:20 well sure that has something to do with it, but more immediately it's because OM has better ideas :-) Jan 10 05:44:13 btw, guess what i've got Jan 10 05:44:34 ? Jan 10 05:44:53 bluetooth on qte 4.4.2 Jan 10 05:46:06 it does work Jan 10 05:46:20 headset? Jan 10 05:46:29 dont have one at hand to try Jan 10 05:46:31 hey, what do you think about the possibility of a 3g enabled netbook bound to an OM phone... ? how far away are we from this level of sophistication through the gui? Jan 10 05:47:04 thinking about this is one of the reasons i'm not really sweating the 3g-phone abilities Jan 10 05:48:50 what about gps on 4.4.2? Jan 10 05:49:15 why does that not work Jan 10 05:49:29 should by default Jan 10 05:49:29 cause there is no way to turn it on Jan 10 05:49:48 terminal dont work? Jan 10 05:50:25 * rooly goes have a look see at the terminal Jan 10 05:50:28 hadn't tought about that one Jan 10 05:51:38 no terminal Jan 10 05:51:40 * rooly sighs Jan 10 05:51:50 lost my terminal app in 4.3.3 Jan 10 06:04:34 download a terminal at qtx Jan 10 06:04:54 don't care enough Jan 10 06:04:57 and sleepy Jan 10 06:04:59 going to bed Jan 10 06:04:59 oo Jan 10 06:04:59 nn Jan 10 06:06:04 now 2 applications i installed on shr both work:) Jan 10 06:09:54 "From 1 December 2008 to 30 November 2009, SPRING SEEDS Capital will match two dollars for every dollar raised by the company." Jan 10 06:10:23 so you actually need just S$150k to get that S$300k from them Jan 10 06:27:33 bwahaha Jan 10 06:28:18 in finland you can get similar assistance at up to 75% of the expenses up to 250ke, and that's completely assistance funding Jan 10 06:28:35 i.e. they don't want a stake and you don't have to pay them back Jan 10 06:30:09 before you can get that up to 250ke thing you have to apply for a preplanning stage where they similarly pay 75% of the expenses of the planning up to 50ke Jan 10 06:34:07 acceptable expenses for the planning stage are external professional services for planning the business activity, bought research for business plan Jan 10 06:34:36 like market analysis, competitor/IPR/freedom-to-operate research, law research Jan 10 06:35:30 and in addition salaries and associated expenses and travel, but those can account for max. 50% of the total assisted expenses Jan 10 06:51:47 hi all, just got the freerunner in the mail today and pretty excited to get started (: Jan 10 07:02:02 how does one set the timezone in SHR/FSO? Jan 10 07:02:21 ntpdate gives me GMT Jan 10 07:05:37 ah /etc/localtime Jan 10 08:26:17 http://www.pennergame.de/change_please/7962323/ Jan 10 08:28:07 http://www.pennergame.de/change_please/7962323/ <---- Jan 10 08:28:17 penner_9090_: die Jan 10 08:28:21 http://www.pennergame.de/change_please/7962323/ <--klick Jan 10 08:28:49 mickey|zzZZzz: Ganneff ping? Jan 10 08:29:34 http://www.pennergame.de/change_please/7962323/ Jan 10 08:30:19 http://www.pennergame.de/change_please/7962323/ Jan 10 08:30:21 http://www.pennergame.de/change_please/7962323/ Jan 10 08:30:22 http://www.pennergame.de/change_please/7962323/ Jan 10 08:30:24 http://www.pennergame.de/change_please/7962323/ Jan 10 08:30:29 :* Jan 10 08:30:36 http://www.pennergame.de/change_please/7962323/ Jan 10 08:32:10 http://www.pennergame.de/change_please/7962323/ Jan 10 08:39:43 was ein scheiss-penner... Jan 10 08:43:47 tschah Jan 10 08:43:58 der penner macht das aber schon seit nen paar tagen. Jan 10 08:44:17 und auf freenode ist das immer am unangenehmsten, da hier mit ops gegeizt wird. Jan 10 08:44:50 im ircnet oder so, also netzen ohne services, ist meist einer wach und kickt den. wie neulich auf #ccc IIRC Jan 10 08:53:51 Penner... Jan 10 08:54:15 da is der name programm. Jan 10 09:46:45 re. i just updated my freerunner to 2008.12 (with neotool). now i can't ping/ssh to it anymore. what could be the problem? Jan 10 09:49:22 vmx: reboot Jan 10 09:51:50 fish: thanks, you are a genious :) Jan 10 10:08:50 Hi, I just tried to open openmoko, but I have little troubles to get it out. Is it safe to press the cover (with USB and mic)? Jan 10 10:10:12 its pretty touch Jan 10 10:10:15 tough Jan 10 10:10:32 raster: yes, how to get it out? Jan 10 10:10:54 violence is how i did it... it stood up to it, but it does feel sort of... like something you shouldn't be doing ;) Jan 10 10:10:56 how to tell Mokomakefile to use all system resources ? :/ Jan 10 10:11:13 piko: dunno - i never had minein a box Jan 10 10:11:15 >:) Jan 10 10:11:17 it seems to ignore MAKEOPTS and uses around 10% cpu Jan 10 10:11:49 raster: nor the first time you opened the cas? Jan 10 10:11:50 case Jan 10 10:12:05 i never opened it Jan 10 10:12:16 raster is it possible to configure illume over ssh, some of the theme dialogs are too big for the screen Jan 10 10:12:25 my mokos came with stickers on them still and hand-written notes Jan 10 10:12:27 :) Jan 10 10:12:36 dns53: to some extent - yes Jan 10 10:12:41 enlightenment_remote Jan 10 10:12:50 u'll need to set E_IPC_SOCKET correctly Jan 10 10:13:07 but e is intended to be configured from its ui Jan 10 10:13:21 everything except downloading themes is easy Jan 10 10:13:22 just the ui dialogs havent been fixed to work on such a small screen (at a high scaling-up factor) Jan 10 10:16:35 if you could get rid of some of the fixed size elements in the theme dialog it would be much easier Jan 10 10:18:43 the audio volume on my side of a phone call is pretty low, i can bearly hear the other one. it's the same with 2008.x, shr and fso. is there a known-to-work fix for that or do i have to play with the mixers to find a usable setting for my device? if so, how would i do that? Jan 10 10:20:35 can anyone give some hints or point me somewhere this problem has already been talked about? Jan 10 10:25:49 raster: little typo in your "Icon" description of Elementary Jan 10 10:25:53 "The Icon man scale or not and of course... support alpha channels. " Jan 10 10:26:09 oops Jan 10 10:26:10 s/man/may? Jan 10 10:26:18 yup Jan 10 10:26:58 fixed Jan 10 10:27:02 :) Jan 10 10:48:16 hello guys Jan 10 10:48:25 whats this about FCO images ? Jan 10 10:52:07 you mean fso? Jan 10 10:54:49 sorry , yes fso Jan 10 10:55:13 look on the list of distrobutions in openmoko, it's more an archatecture project than a distro that shr and perhaps the future official image will use Jan 10 10:58:38 i see its the one from freesmartphones Jan 10 10:59:40 yes fso is short for freesmartphones.org Jan 10 11:06:54 Hi all. I installed Debian on my freerunner but most of the time I just can't make/ receive phone calls/ sms. What can I do? pls Jan 10 11:12:47 freesmartphone.org: 03jluebbe 07framework * r1b882a8b5f87 10/framework/subsystems/ogpsd/factory.py: ogpsd: use framework.config like ogsmd.device Jan 10 11:15:12 ok, I'll give'em a try, thanks Jan 10 11:16:17 cools , when u test , tell me how good it is Jan 10 11:17:03 freesmartphone.org: 03jluebbe 07framework * r052a4b4adac2 10/framework/subsystems/odeviced/kernel26.py: odeviced: readd fcntl import which got lost during the conversion to KObjectDispatcher Jan 10 13:57:44 the audio volume on my side of a phone call is pretty low, i can bearly hear the other one. it's the same with 2008.x, shr and fso. is there a known-to-work fix for that or do i have to play with the mixers to find a usable setting for my device? if so, can someone give advice on how to do that or where i can find more info about it? Jan 10 13:59:40 henk: what are you current audio settings during call? Jan 10 14:00:19 henk: i changed only two settings: $ diff -ur /usr/share/openmoko/scenarios/ /etc/alsa-scenarios/|nc paste.dyndns.org 1234 Jan 10 14:00:23 http://rafb.net/p/ClDZua75.html Jan 10 14:05:21 hm i can't even start the dialer on shr unstable Jan 10 14:05:33 openmoko-dialer: symbol lookup error: openmoko-dialer: undefined symbol: frameworkd_handler_new Jan 10 14:06:00 same error as ophonekitd had before i downgraded it to the testing version. Jan 10 14:13:47 http://cia.vc/stats/project/freesmartphone.org/.message/f543d could that be related to the problem? Jan 10 14:17:16 lindi-: thanks for the values, i'll try them as soon as i get everything working that needs frameworkd_handler_new... :-/ Jan 10 15:15:08 hi! i try to compile the android source for my freerunner ... i did the step by step guide from trac.koolu.org but when i try to "make TARGET_PRODUCT=freerunner" / i always get this error: build/core/product_config.mk:141: *** No matches for product "freerunner". Jan 10 15:17:07 trying to get openmoko emulation running in Ubuntu 8.10 and running into the "Kernel is... not found" issue mentioned on the openmoko wiki. http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Automatic_emulation_in_Ubuntu google doesn't have much to say about that. anybody know how to work around that? Jan 10 15:36:13 Hi, I have some troubles connecting openmoko->debugboard to the debian, I followed http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/OpenOCD#OpenOCD_and_Debug_Board butnow openmoko seems not to start. Jan 10 15:37:53 Could anyone lead me through to make the debugboard communicate? Jan 10 15:44:34 jeeeses, the battery on the phone is pretty bad Jan 10 15:44:36 5hours Jan 10 15:44:50 it's not the battery. Jan 10 15:45:01 It's the almost complete lack of integrated software Jan 10 15:45:05 to do the power managment Jan 10 15:45:06 what is it then? i didnt even use it Jan 10 15:45:11 ok Jan 10 15:46:21 5 hours? wtf? with what distro ? Jan 10 15:46:44 mine lasts much longer powered up with lcd off in fdom Jan 10 15:48:27 mine lasts 2.5h with GPRS, GPS and display on... Jan 10 15:50:13 It would be nice to gather some statistics somewhere Jan 10 15:50:51 jc: om 12 Jan 10 15:51:04 its so terrible Jan 10 15:51:11 i went on a ski trip today Jan 10 15:51:15 was going to call my friends Jan 10 15:51:17 thats pretty weird Jan 10 15:51:22 no battery Jan 10 15:51:38 well of course youre supposed to suspend it when youre not using it Jan 10 15:51:51 I think some distros also have some autosuspend in default Jan 10 15:52:01 yes that another problem Jan 10 15:52:06 with autosuspend i can not wake it up Jan 10 15:52:08 shr does Jan 10 15:52:09 after suspend Jan 10 15:52:10 And some people seem to have problems with suspend not coming back Jan 10 15:52:16 yup Jan 10 15:52:20 on my gentoo, it suspends/resumes ok Jan 10 15:52:28 although wifi doesnt work after suspend Jan 10 15:52:34 but wmiconfig reset should fix that Jan 10 15:52:37 how big is gentoo image? Jan 10 15:52:45 About > < Jan 10 15:52:52 around 500MB is just the stage3 tarball Jan 10 15:53:03 another 50MB (squashfs) or 500MB is portage Jan 10 15:53:18 and with all the bells and whistles installed (normal portage) mine has about 1.7 GB Jan 10 15:53:29 holy shit Jan 10 15:53:29 compiling on freerunner :ohnoes: Jan 10 15:53:32 but you can pretty much slim it down Jan 10 15:53:54 frankS2: it's not that bad Jan 10 15:54:00 frankS2: well, it could be battery issue - many mobile phone batteries have lower capacity if in cold Jan 10 15:54:09 frankS2: FR is quite fast - it's comparable with a PII/200 or so. Jan 10 15:54:24 im used to quadcore :p Jan 10 15:54:28 and gentoo Jan 10 15:54:34 pii/200 was way faster than its name Jan 10 15:54:45 btw. memory usage in gentoo without deamons and everything: Jan 10 15:54:49 8MB on startup Jan 10 15:54:54 of which 6MB is disk cache Jan 10 15:54:56 frankS2: to PII/400 or so. Jan 10 15:55:02 not counting kernel Jan 10 15:55:17 frankS2: it depends on the task. Compiling is quite fast - due to faster RAM, and no FPU Jan 10 16:01:39 I have a p2/200 server with gentoo above me and its quite good :) Jan 10 16:03:56 woot Jan 10 16:12:20 freesmartphone.org: 03mickey 07fso-monitord * r31b4d3d1a40b 10/src/obj.vala: add some logging functions Jan 10 16:12:45 freesmartphone.org: 03mok 07libframeworkd-glib * r447ad6711059 10/src/ogsmd/ (4 files in 2 dirs): Jan 10 16:12:48 freesmartphone.org: adjust to API change for SMS sent callback Jan 10 16:12:50 freesmartphone.org: Give the callback handler the new timestamp parameter Jan 10 16:12:52 freesmartphone.org: for the time when the message center received the message. Jan 10 16:12:54 freesmartphone.org: Signed-off-by: Klaus Kurzmann Jan 10 16:33:20 freesmartphone.org: 03mickey 07framework * rb9f8eb63343d 10/framework/subsystems/ogsmd/modems/ (abstract/calling.py ti_calypso/unsolicited.py): ogsmd: [TI CALYPSO] honor +CRING, if -- for some reason -- we didn't get %CPI before. Jan 10 16:42:58 natural aspiration Jan 10 16:43:34 all depends on how u hang it on the wall Jan 10 16:43:42 emulating the Om2008.12 release under Ubuntu 8.10, I get the boot menu eg "Boot, set console and Power off", when I select boot, it pops up the splash screen for a moment and then jumps back to the menu. is that a problem with the kernel or the jffs2 image? Jan 10 17:04:32 trying out SHR distro, working pretty decently! Jan 10 17:04:49 just got wifi working with it today, good stuff. Jan 10 17:05:20 I'm trying to get into my tmobile voicemail, and I'm supposed to dial #793# to reset the pwd. Jan 10 17:05:35 but the SHR dialer won't dial that number... any suggestions? Jan 10 17:05:56 I guess I could install another distro and dial from there... seems like a hassle though Jan 10 17:06:45 Ansible: how does it fail? Jan 10 17:07:32 well I hit dial in the dialer, then I never get the 'call is active' screen. I guess it could be working, but I think I'm supposed to get an SMS back from tmobile and I haven't. Jan 10 17:08:17 Ansible: SHR dialers uses fso-frameworkd? Jan 10 17:08:35 hmmm, no idea what it uses Jan 10 17:08:53 I think SHR is built on FSO though Jan 10 17:09:35 screenshots are here: Jan 10 17:09:35 http://shr.bearstech.com/trac/wiki/Screenshots Jan 10 17:09:37 phone works otherwise Jan 10 17:09:40 ? Jan 10 17:09:40 y Jan 10 17:10:36 Ansible, I have a similar problem when calling *134# to know the money in my mobile account Jan 10 17:10:51 it doesn't show any calling screen, but I get the message anyway :) Jan 10 17:10:57 report the bug Jan 10 17:10:59 in SHR also Jan 10 17:11:14 ok, will do. Jan 10 17:12:25 does anybody know if it's posible to export contacts from SHR to the computer or to a text file? Jan 10 17:12:48 I read qtopia uses sqlite to store info, but I don't know anything about SHR Jan 10 17:13:01 yikes, tried dialing *793# and it crashed the dialer! Jan 10 17:13:20 now dialer crashes with a regular number too, rebooting. Jan 10 17:15:09 Ansible: screenshots? ps axuf would be more useful Jan 10 17:15:21 ps axuf == ??? Jan 10 17:15:42 Ansible: how do you list processes if not with ps? Jan 10 17:16:13 guess I don't Jan 10 17:16:26 there's Htop in SHR Jan 10 17:36:44 btw. do you think that flashing with nandwrite would be faster than with dfu-util ? Jan 10 17:48:04 jc, I think dfu-util is kind of frontend for nandwrite Jan 10 17:48:54 that is not so. dfu-util is a tool for doing flash operations over usb using the device firmware upgrade protocol. Jan 10 17:48:56 max_posedon: nandwrite is utility inside linux whereas dfu-util uses usb link with u-boot to write it Jan 10 17:49:44 Wonka: do you think uploading my image to sd card and writing it via uboot (or nandwrite) afterwards would be faster than dfu-util ? Jan 10 17:50:12 could be. no idea. Jan 10 17:50:45 damn.. error during download.. again.. guess I'll have to try ) Jan 10 17:50:46 :) Jan 10 17:59:12 freesmartphone.org: 03mickey 07framework * re6a8e8105ddc 10/framework/subsystems/ogsmd/gsm/channel.py: Jan 10 17:59:12 freesmartphone.org: ogsmd: channel.py: remove potential races Jan 10 17:59:12 freesmartphone.org: * create answer timeout always (even if no one is listening) Jan 10 17:59:12 freesmartphone.org: * feed value of response watch to parser (which should be more accurate than Jan 10 17:59:12 freesmartphone.org: the whether there is something in the queue or not) Jan 10 18:00:15 what are these messages from CIA-46 ? Jan 10 18:00:35 commits tot he tree Jan 10 18:00:37 I guess those are svn commit messages Jan 10 18:00:44 ok thanks :) Jan 10 18:00:45 git Jan 10 18:01:16 right, git... Jan 10 18:01:57 hmm I didn't receive a message from a friend she told she had sent me, so I've rebooted Jan 10 18:02:26 and now when I enter it says the memory it's full and that i've to delete messages or I won't receive more messages Jan 10 18:02:35 and I have only 20 messages on the inbox lol Jan 10 18:03:24 could be Jan 10 18:03:28 if it's the SIM inbox Jan 10 18:03:37 SIM only contains very few message slots Jan 10 18:03:53 mickeyl, so SHR does only use SIM box at the moment Jan 10 18:04:20 correct Jan 10 18:04:40 non-SIM PIM db is under construction Jan 10 18:04:51 great :) Jan 10 18:05:50 The bad thing of SHR at the moment for me is that GSM apps needs lot of working :) Jan 10 18:05:54 btw. is fatload into ram safe for a 68MB file on freerunner ? Jan 10 18:06:13 it has not been responding for a long time Jan 10 18:06:55 hmm, i don't know how memory is mapped from uboot Jan 10 18:07:08 I'm trying to flash SHR into my phone and dfu-util hangs, so I have to go this way... Jan 10 18:07:34 jc, I've used always Neotool and it works without problems :) Jan 10 18:07:47 Sharwin_F: is it fast ? Jan 10 18:08:25 they write: Please note that this will only work with root file system sizes that are smaller than the amount of memory above 0x32000000, which in the case of 64MB SDRAM is something like 32MB. Jan 10 18:08:26 jc, what do you understand by fast? 30 seconds? xD Jan 10 18:08:44 Sharwin_F: less than an hour for the whole flash ? Jan 10 18:09:13 jc, you are flashing SHR into a gta02? Jan 10 18:09:19 an hour? o.O Jan 10 18:09:21 dfu-util was fairly fast for my need, unfortunately doesn't work on my second x86 machine Jan 10 18:09:42 Sharwin_F: even longer than that, but I'm uncertain whether it hung Jan 10 18:09:55 neotool makes use of dfu-util Jan 10 18:10:05 ... which hangs Jan 10 18:10:12 but it doesn't take so long for me, maybe 10-15 min Jan 10 18:10:23 yeah that is it Jan 10 18:10:31 I was talking about the whole flash Jan 10 18:10:38 SHR just takes about 70 MB or so Jan 10 18:10:49 jc, yes, I'm speaking about SHR Jan 10 18:10:53 the whole flash is 256 MB I think Jan 10 18:11:11 jc, oh, so you have to flash more things than the ones in SHR image? Jan 10 18:11:36 nope, I was talking about what kinda speed is ok, and its hour for the whole flash, which means under 20 minutes for SHR Jan 10 18:11:56 noidea :) Jan 10 18:11:59 its seems that when reading from microsd its slower or it already hung Jan 10 18:12:07 pretty weird Jan 10 18:12:31 What I hate more about GMS apps in SHR is that the program doesn't show the name of the contact who send you a meesage or calls you >.< Jan 10 18:12:37 *GSM Jan 10 18:12:55 so I've no idea who is sending me the message xD Jan 10 18:13:36 hey in SHR when I go to midori I have this bar that says "warning: You are using a superuser account!" Jan 10 18:13:42 great, here it is http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo_FreeRunner_Memory_Mapping Jan 10 18:13:42 any way to get rid of that? Jan 10 18:14:39 so after 0x32000000 theres another 32MB of memory and then a gap Jan 10 18:14:43 which means I'm screwed Jan 10 18:14:52 Ansible: don't run as root Jan 10 18:15:26 heh, yeah, but I figured that wasn't a good idea on the OM? otherwise wouldn't they configure it that way by default? Jan 10 18:15:45 Ansible: i thought you were running SHR? Jan 10 18:15:53 yeah I am. Jan 10 18:15:57 and not OM? Jan 10 18:16:57 so, you can create a new user in SHR and run as that user without problems? have you done that? Jan 10 18:17:20 Ansible: i do that in debian Jan 10 18:20:40 is there any u-boot command I missed to init the other half of the memory in freerunner ? Jan 10 18:21:03 Hello all. Jan 10 18:29:29 i think I've found a bug on the Inbox on SHR. Can anyone confirm? the button "Options" which should display 3 options, display the 3 buttons behind the list after... Jan 10 18:29:35 1- delete a message Jan 10 18:29:39 2- show another message Jan 10 18:29:45 3- click option button in the message list Jan 10 18:31:02 mm I've rebooted the app and now doesn't happen that weird thing :) Jan 10 18:31:33 maybe it only happens when doin that after sending a message Jan 10 18:31:41 yeeey I managed triggering a memory abort by writing nonaligned address Jan 10 18:31:45 what a happy person am I Jan 10 18:31:50 hahaah Jan 10 18:31:57 almost had it :/ Jan 10 18:33:03 jc, why the image are you flashing is so fat? Jan 10 18:33:14 no, its only 70MB Jan 10 18:33:27 but because of that I need to init the other half of the memory too (somehow) :/ Jan 10 18:33:52 jc, I don't need to do that on netool, just clic o flash on the GUI :D Jan 10 18:33:58 *to Jan 10 18:34:09 yeah with dfu-util neither Jan 10 18:34:15 but it doesn't work here Jan 10 18:34:28 jc, are you using another app? Jan 10 18:34:35 I have the image on microsd and I have to put it into ram *somewhere* and then write it into nand Jan 10 18:34:46 yes, directly via u-boot Jan 10 18:35:09 the putting into memory part isn't so hard.. Jan 10 18:35:14 but finding where to put it is :/ Jan 10 18:35:26 it seems only half of the memory is initialized Jan 10 18:35:33 so only 64MB is available Jan 10 18:35:46 I try to write beyond that - the device hangs Jan 10 18:36:44 OH ! Jan 10 18:36:46 actually its 59MB Jan 10 18:36:51 damn how could I have missed that Jan 10 18:36:59 I'll just write it into 0x30000000 then :) Jan 10 18:37:52 jc, can't you run from microsd? Jan 10 18:38:13 Sharwin_F: I can but I want to have other card with gentoo inside :) Jan 10 18:38:21 ok :) Jan 10 18:38:45 jc: get a bigger card! Jan 10 18:38:47 0x30000000 contains some crap on the start and then its all fffs, hope its ok to write it Jan 10 18:38:58 mwester: gimme money for a bigger card :P Jan 10 18:39:05 and one that is readable from u-boot too :P Jan 10 18:39:08 jc: re: your much earlier question -- yes, nandwrite is way, way, way faster than dfu-util. Jan 10 18:39:39 * Sharwin_F hoping contacts and message apps are being developed fastly Jan 10 18:40:26 jc: the readable from u-boot stuff is the communities fault -- this place is full of way too many lazy people!!!! :D :P Kexec with a small rootfs in flash is all you need to boot a linux kernel, read the real kernel from whatever sd card partition you wish, and boot it. Jan 10 18:41:32 mwester: with gentoo, I just load kernel from flash, then it works with whatever card is supported in kernel Jan 10 18:41:37 Seriously though, we really do need a sample "kexec" rootfs for people to see how this works; maybe that would spur more development in that area. I just lack time right now, although I have such a rootfs running on my flash-deficient GTA01. Jan 10 18:42:21 I'm not sure whether kexec is safe Jan 10 18:42:26 its definitely not the cleanest method Jan 10 18:42:37 jc: That's a good strategy too. You can actually place the kernel at any spot in the flash - so you could squeeze a couple of 2MB kernel images into the GTA02's kernel partition so that you can choose two kernels from the u-boot boot menu. Jan 10 18:42:54 yeah I know :) Jan 10 18:43:01 jc:It *is* the cleanest method! Far better than the hideous overgrown brush-pile that uboot has become! Jan 10 18:43:17 u-boot is great for saving things Jan 10 18:43:24 and for testing code without debugboard Jan 10 18:43:37 if you remove it from nor, I'd be a very sad panda Jan 10 18:43:44 flash neeFlash is not error free Jan 10 18:43:49 err Jan 10 18:43:54 nand flash Jan 10 18:44:15 so that adds a layer of complication, you can't just boot straight into an arbitrary image Jan 10 18:44:17 * mwester has used kexec for those things, very successfully -- you can't have u-boot download a test kernel from a tftp server and boot from that -- but that's how I test kernels on the GTA01 Jan 10 18:44:20 you need to do het erro rcorrection. Jan 10 18:44:34 just WHY the hell is 0x32000000 recommended by default for loading things and not 0x30000000 ? Jan 10 18:44:45 is there some kind of stack there or what? :/ Jan 10 18:44:54 mtest runs ok against that region Jan 10 18:45:13 mwester: how is the boot time with kexec compared to qi and uboot? Jan 10 18:45:40 good question - post it to the om kernel list, werner probably knows off the top of his head why 0x3200000000000000000000 is used. :) Jan 10 18:46:15 oh I wouldn't dare taint the sacred list with this kinda crap Jan 10 18:47:20 quatrox1: I haven't replaced u-boot on any of my devices, so I can't really say -- for me it's a simple sum -- just add the amount of time it takes to boot the kernel (but not run init). Jan 10 18:47:22 allright NOT cool Jan 10 18:47:29 lol my screen just flashed Jan 10 18:47:45 I started writing a jffs2 image to 0x30000000 Jan 10 18:47:55 seems like something important is mapped somewhere in there Jan 10 18:48:28 jc: did you look at the partition mapping table at the wiki? Jan 10 18:48:41 I looked at the SDRAM mapping Jan 10 18:48:54 or generally memory mapping Jan 10 18:49:02 ok Jan 10 18:49:03 0x30000000 should be start of sdram on fr Jan 10 18:49:23 also theres a small ammount of ram at 0x0 probably used by the u-boot now Jan 10 18:49:36 stomping executing bootloadder is usually bad Jan 10 18:49:47 yeah god knows WHERE it was Jan 10 18:50:13 lets see Jan 10 18:50:51 base 0 Jan 10 18:50:55 * SpeedEvil thought the steppingstone ROM was mapped to 0 Jan 10 18:51:27 I thought its a ram and it just gets whatever code from rom copied into it before the cpu boots afaik Jan 10 18:51:38 (which should be u-boot?) Jan 10 18:51:59 I'm not aware of any RAM integrated on the die Jan 10 18:52:06 (other than registers and cache) Jan 10 18:52:32 The CPU starts executing the 48K of steppingstone ROM code, that's programmed by samsung Jan 10 18:52:55 I think the stock one just reads a block from NAND or NOR, depending on the value of an external pin, and executes it. Jan 10 18:52:58 damn the memory is full of crap.. Jan 10 18:53:19 I guess if I erase it completely with zeroes and quickly reboot it I could determine where uboot places itself Jan 10 18:53:36 Or use the source. Jan 10 18:53:41 SpeedEvil: yeah there is, but just 64MB Jan 10 18:53:52 jc: on the die Jan 10 18:53:58 see: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo_FreeRunner_Memory_Mapping Jan 10 18:54:00 jc: not in the package Jan 10 18:54:22 jc: it's a RAM chip in the same package. It's not one chip with the CPU. Jan 10 18:54:45 i guess the only 'ram' thats on die is the cache, isn't it ? Jan 10 18:54:54 jc: and registers I think. Jan 10 18:55:02 yeah those are flip flops Jan 10 18:55:46 SpeedEvil: define chip Jan 10 18:55:53 right, 0x34000000 and a up seems to be full of zeroes Jan 10 18:56:18 doc|home: one contiguous bit of silicon that is sliced out of a wafer. Jan 10 18:56:19 docs: Jan 10 18:56:23 flipflops aka SRAM Jan 10 18:56:52 bumbl: in the package. it's python and shell skripts. Jan 10 18:57:13 hreat Jan 10 18:57:15 great Jan 10 18:57:17 I just tested Jan 10 18:57:22 memory in 0x34000000 is a ram Jan 10 18:57:26 so its initialized Jan 10 18:57:33 tried writing/reading from it Jan 10 18:57:38 so why doesnt it load my image :/ Jan 10 19:00:44 SpeedEvil: isn't that a die Jan 10 19:01:52 Wonka: ? Jan 10 19:02:39 * SpeedEvil follows the Humpty Dumpty school of word choice. Jan 10 19:03:06 ok maybe it has problems when its overlaping over two chips Jan 10 19:03:19 I'll try writing the image to 0x34000000 Jan 10 19:03:24 bumbl: 4th comment on http://risto.kurppa.fi/blog/my-openmoko-wishlist/#comments points to http://www.opkg.org/package_97.html which in turn points to http://www.opkg.org/packages/osmupdater_0.3_any.ipk Jan 10 19:03:33 bumbl: which in turn has some skripts Jan 10 19:03:42 "When I say a word, it means exactly what I want it to mean". Jan 10 19:03:51 However, I agree die is the more usual term. Jan 10 19:04:13 SpeedEvil: S3C2442 is a SoC, as System on a CHIP Jan 10 19:04:15 going to eat dinner... Jan 10 19:04:35 doc|home: yes, I know. I picked the wrong word. Jan 10 19:04:35 docs: Jan 10 19:04:38 ah thank you Wonka Jan 10 19:05:08 i just was a bit confused because I asked the question in cdevel Jan 10 19:05:36 bumbl: oops, my fault :) Jan 10 19:06:03 bumbl: got the three openmoko channels i am in in the same irssi window Jan 10 19:06:17 ah ok Jan 10 19:07:40 SpeedEvil: I asked because i wasn't clear about it myself ;-) Jan 10 19:08:04 right, my phone just died again... Jan 10 19:08:08 goddammit :/ Jan 10 19:10:21 there must be something mapped into that ram because my screen gets all white after a while... Jan 10 19:10:50 the wiki must be lying :/ Jan 10 19:12:10 ping Jan 10 19:12:43 jc: maybe that ram is reserved for graphics or something Jan 10 19:12:51 just my stupid guess Jan 10 19:13:04 quatrox1, according to wiki, it should be general purpose sdram Jan 10 19:13:14 I'd expect the 8MB of video ram to be inside the glamo region Jan 10 19:13:43 me too, but not sure if we always use that Jan 10 19:13:51 since gta01 does not have the glamo Jan 10 19:14:34 but it should be mach specific Jan 10 19:14:40 good idea Jan 10 19:15:21 actually maybe that bitch glamo doesn't have the memory on itself and just steals a portion of sdram Jan 10 19:15:52 or maybe we only use the glamo mem after the glamo driver is inited? Jan 10 19:16:11 dunno Jan 10 19:16:16 * doc|home pokes SpeedEvil in the eye Jan 10 19:18:44 PaulFertser: did you get your patch accepted? Jan 10 19:18:51 damn.. if only the image loading was gap-aware Jan 10 19:18:52 quatrox1: Hey :) Jan 10 19:19:00 quatrox1: yes, it did. Jan 10 19:19:05 great:) Jan 10 19:19:14 quatrox1: BTW, i've another idea what can be wrong with your restart.sh Jan 10 19:21:56 where's the bugtracker for illume? is the same than enlightenment? or I should use the SHR one? Jan 10 19:22:25 enlightenment crashes when I set the mixer gadget Jan 10 19:22:29 in he shelf Jan 10 19:22:33 *the Jan 10 19:22:57 Sharwin_F: that'd be a question for raster if he doesn't mind being bothered Jan 10 19:24:14 jc: glamo video ram is inside glamo, it doesn't interfere with standard ram address space in any way you suggested Jan 10 19:24:52 DocScrutinizer2: any idea why my screen gets white when I load a 59MB large image into 0x34000000 where 64MB of SDRAM should be available ? Jan 10 19:25:24 freesmartphone.org: 03mickey 07framework * rddade22d7df7 10/framework/subsystems/ogsmd/modems/ti_calypso/channel.py: ogsmd: [TI CALYPSO] fix bogus GSM wakeups introduced by f734551d42315bac6bc63aa5c5e2d793f16245ea Jan 10 19:25:58 no. not really. prolly you're overwriting some data/code located there Jan 10 19:26:40 maybe it neads more ram than just the size of the file Jan 10 19:26:44 would explain it Jan 10 19:27:00 its a pretty tight fit Jan 10 19:27:04 I usually just load kernel this way Jan 10 19:36:42 does anybody know whats the board name in u-boot source for gta02 ? Jan 10 19:45:43 SpeedEvil: you suggested to read the source.. Jan 10 19:45:58 SpeedEvil: I can't figure out what *ep is for: http://git.openmoko.org/?p=u-boot.git;a=blob;f=common/cmd_fat.c;h=9576cdf389df838323d32d3c005cc0fdb0d96e3f;hb=aeff6d503b6006573d5c6b04fc658a64bebee5fa#l36 Jan 10 19:46:05 SpeedEvil: any idea ? Jan 10 19:46:29 thats the command I get stuck in Jan 10 19:49:08 SpeedEvil: never mind, figured it out Jan 10 20:06:13 How to force opkg to install specific version? Jan 10 20:06:25 uzytkownik: -force-downgrade? Jan 10 20:07:21 henk: If it would help I wouldn't ask... Jan 10 20:07:35 $ opkg install -force-downgrade -test install ophonekitd_0.0.1\+ Jan 10 20:07:35 gitr514\+b3961977c3c2b3ce8fabded3a7cbea9115b4ca6f-r12.1_armv4t.ipk Jan 10 20:07:35 Multiple packages (ophonekitd and ophonekitd) providing same name marked HOLD or PREFER. Using latest. Jan 10 20:07:35 Multiple packages (ophonekitd and ophonekitd) providing same name marked HOLD or PREFER. Using latest. Jan 10 20:07:35 Multiple packages (ophonekitd and ophonekitd) providing same name marked HOLD or PREFER. Using latest. Jan 10 20:07:36 Multiple packages (ophonekitd and ophonekitd) providing same name marked HOLD or PREFER. Using latest. Jan 10 20:07:38 Installing ophonekitd (0.0.1+gitr544+7ad092809ea50a70b67ca23397b658f8991aa990-r12) to root... Jan 10 20:07:40 Downloading http://shr.bearstech.com/shr-unstable/ipk//armv4t/ophonekitd_0.0.1+gitr544+7ad092809ea50a70b67ca23397b658f8991aa990-r12_armv4t.ipk Jan 10 20:07:48 uzytkownik: use a pastebin next time! Jan 10 20:08:47 uzytkownik: try sticking exactly to the syntax... Jan 10 20:09:27 usage: opkg [options...] sub-command [arguments...] Jan 10 20:09:48 henk: Doesn't help Jan 10 20:10:26 uzytkownik: download the ipk manually and give the path to the ipk to opkg Jan 10 20:10:43 henk: Tried Jan 10 20:13:39 hm, strange. i have done exactly that downgrade yesterday, but can't redo it now... Jan 10 20:14:22 wow writing flash via nandwrite is lightning fast ! Jan 10 20:14:50 uzytkownik: disable the repository the package comes from temporarily. that should work, but is an ugly workaround. Jan 10 20:16:46 in shr the openmoko-dialer dies when trying to dial a number. E says the error log is saved to /home/root/dialer.something, but there are no files in /home/root/ looking like an error log. what's wrong? Jan 10 20:17:19 jc: Yet another reason to use kexec and an initramfs -- you can use nandwrite instead of dfu-util --- it'll be much faster. Jan 10 20:17:44 starting manually via ssh yields this error: Failed to handle dbus error: type: Jan 10 20:17:47 , 69 (dbus-glib-error-quark), code 32 Jan 10 20:18:16 hehe I have only 4 bad blocks in my nand Jan 10 20:18:43 right now... Jan 10 20:19:19 mwester: how do you write a jffs2 image via nandwrite ? Jan 10 20:19:32 mwester can you supply a .jffs2 file directly to nandwrite ? Jan 10 20:21:49 Anyone know how I could make Amarok recognize the FR as a media player? All it would need to do is manage the media files in a folder. Jan 10 20:22:57 Digital-Pioneer: either you use sshfs or http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Using_the_Neo_as_an_USB_Mass_storage_device Jan 10 20:24:45 mwester: when doing: nandwrite /dev/mtd6 /var/tmp/shr.jffs2 I get a buttload of I/O errors Jan 10 20:25:07 mwester: nandtest runs ok though.. any idea? Jan 10 20:25:21 uhm wasn't there something on the ml about someone doing the same recently? Jan 10 20:25:44 jc: not /dev/mtdblock6? Jan 10 20:25:54 henk: should it be ? Jan 10 20:26:21 idk, sorry. just remember that thread... Jan 10 20:26:29 henk: nandwrite /dev/mtdblock6 /var/tmp/shr.jffs2 gives me : Jan 10 20:26:40 MEMGETINFO: Inappropriate ioctl for device Jan 10 20:26:53 I have: Jan 10 20:26:53 mtd0 mtd1 mtd2 mtd3 mtd4 mtd5 mtd6 mtdblock0 mtdblock2 mtdblock4 mtdblock6 Jan 10 20:26:53 mtd0ro mtd1ro mtd2ro mtd3ro mtd4ro mtd5ro mtd6ro mtdblock1 mtdblock3 mtdblock5 Jan 10 20:27:08 of which: Jan 10 20:27:09 dev: size erasesize name Jan 10 20:27:09 mtd0: 00200000 00010000 "physmap-flash.0" Jan 10 20:27:09 mtd1: 00040000 00020000 "u-boot" Jan 10 20:27:09 mtd2: 00040000 00020000 "u-boot_env" Jan 10 20:27:09 mtd3: 00800000 00020000 "kernel" Jan 10 20:27:11 mtd4: 000a0000 00020000 "splash" Jan 10 20:27:13 mtd5: 00040000 00020000 "factory" Jan 10 20:27:15 mtd6: 0f6a0000 00020000 "rootfs" Jan 10 20:27:18 I'm trying to write an image into rootfs Jan 10 20:27:22 then mtd6 might be right. Jan 10 20:27:46 nandtest /dev/mtd6 runs fine and finds 4 bad blocks Jan 10 20:27:59 which would mean it can definitely read/write the flash Jan 10 20:28:12 nandwrite of a .jffs2 file gives me: Jan 10 20:28:12 Erasing failed write from 02cc0000-02cdffff Jan 10 20:28:13 Writing data to block 359 at offset 0x2ce0000 Jan 10 20:28:13 pwrite: Input/output error Jan 10 20:28:13 Erasing failed write from 02ce0000-02cfffff Jan 10 20:28:13 Writing data to block 360 at offset 0x2d00000 Jan 10 20:28:15 pwrite: Input/output error Jan 10 20:28:17 Erasing failed write from 02d00000-02d1ffff Jan 10 20:28:19 Writing data to block 361 at offset 0x2d20000 Jan 10 20:28:23 pwrite: Input/output error Jan 10 20:28:25 and a whole lot more of those Jan 10 20:29:16 damn.. on a fourth try, it works.. Jan 10 20:29:23 thats weird Jan 10 20:29:57 jc: you'd have to check the code to nandwrite to see what it does for badblock handling, I think. I've only used it for very small flashes on other devices, and for kernel flashing on the GTA0x devices (all my rootfs' are on SD) Jan 10 20:30:28 well.. still it then spits out errors after a while and gives me: Data was only partially written due to error Jan 10 20:30:35 damn :/ Jan 10 20:30:47 mwester: yeah think I'll have to.. Jan 10 20:31:02 maybe its not even possible to do it with nandwrite when there are bad blocks Jan 10 20:33:28 oh yes, shouldn't it get erased first ? Jan 10 20:33:48 http://markmail.org/message/p62vjr5ycgf6kus5#query:nandwrite%20openmoko+page:1+mid:7vf5pxbjzkspzxia+state:results Jan 10 20:34:42 henk: thanks :) Jan 10 20:35:56 yeah I discovered now how to do it properly Jan 10 20:35:59 its nandwrite -p Jan 10 20:36:03 that adds the padding :) Jan 10 20:36:33 jc: could you perhaps add some short info about flashing stuff with nandwrite to the wiki? Jan 10 20:36:53 in case it's not already there... Jan 10 20:36:57 henk: sure.. but I'm still not sure about tha bad blocks Jan 10 20:37:07 henk: nope, I searched it for nandwrite Jan 10 20:37:17 only doing it via u-boot is mentioned Jan 10 20:37:25 (which didn't work for me, for mysterious reasons) Jan 10 20:37:42 jc: write that there, perhaps it will result in a discussion and the info will be added by someone else. Jan 10 20:37:55 henk: ok Jan 10 20:38:02 jc: thanks :) Jan 10 20:38:10 no, thank you :) Jan 10 20:38:37 btw if its the proper way, its lightning fast Jan 10 20:39:23 time nandwrite -m -p /dev/mtd6 /var/tmp/shr.jffs2: Jan 10 20:39:24 real 0m31.389s Jan 10 20:39:24 user 0m0.050s Jan 10 20:39:24 sys 0m29.380s Jan 10 20:39:43 yes, about 31 seconds for a 60MB image :) Jan 10 20:39:46 hm, nice! i should put debian on my card so i have a system to use it 'g' Jan 10 20:40:03 in contrast to the 15 minutes or so with dfu-utils Jan 10 20:40:06 util Jan 10 20:40:10 which is broken on my system anyway Jan 10 20:41:08 henk: where do you thing would be the best place to put it? I was thinking http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Flashing_the_Neo_FreeRunner Jan 10 20:41:25 jc: exactly what i was thinking of. Jan 10 20:41:30 ok Jan 10 20:42:22 btw. with the -m parameter, it writes: Jan 10 20:42:22 Bad block at 440000, 1 block(s) from 440000 will be skipped Jan 10 20:42:22 Writing data to block 35 at offset 0x460000 Jan 10 20:42:22 Bad block at 460000, 1 block(s) from 460000 will be skipped Jan 10 20:42:22 Writing data to block 36 at offset 0x480000 Jan 10 20:42:23 Bad block at 480000, 1 block(s) from 480000 will be skipped Jan 10 20:42:25 Writing data to block 37 at offset 0x4a0000 Jan 10 20:42:27 Bad block at 4a0000, 1 block(s) from 4a0000 will be skipped Jan 10 20:42:29 Writing data to block 38 at offset 0x4c0000 Jan 10 20:42:31 Bad block at 4c0000, 1 block(s) from 4c0000 will be skipped Jan 10 20:42:33 it seems it skips bad blocks :) Jan 10 20:42:37 I'll try to mount the fs and see if its ok Jan 10 20:44:17 yes ! Jan 10 20:44:22 its mountable and seems to be ok :) Jan 10 20:44:36 theres no fsck.jffs2 though Jan 10 20:55:22 when I build shr, the files in tmp/rootfs/dev is normal files, not devices Jan 10 20:56:51 do I need privileges to create devices? Jan 10 20:58:04 no Jan 10 20:58:15 what are you looking at where you see files? Jan 10 21:00:06 ls -l dump at http://pastebin.com/d51dbd614 Jan 10 21:01:23 I would expect them to be character and block devices Jan 10 21:01:34 and owned by correct user Jan 10 21:04:10 So, what's the best media player for FR? Jan 10 21:07:41 Digital-Pioneer: use mplayer from the console Jan 10 21:07:55 or else it will not play smooth Jan 10 21:08:18 Digital-Pioneer: I#ve the same question ;-) .. had tried some programs .. one thing very important to have is ionice ! it seems that mpg321 is the best for playing mp3s. Jan 10 21:08:58 (mplayer for mp3s is a bit overkill) Jan 10 21:10:05 quatrox1: pythm does OK, but it's UGLY. Jan 10 21:10:26 bernt: I don't do MP3s. Jan 10 21:11:09 * Digital-Pioneer gives elitist speech on audio formats, bashing MP3 and praising OGG. Jan 10 21:11:16 ;) Jan 10 21:11:40 I have tried pythm but without ionice and when changing the output volume the sound was not good. Jan 10 21:11:53 Yeah, pythm's volume control sucks too. :P Jan 10 21:12:02 irssi fails. only displaying the topic in one line sucks... Jan 10 21:12:19 Digital-Pioneer: It cannot play smooth here Jan 10 21:12:24 (i was looking for the slide-finger-up-on-they-keyboard thing :> Jan 10 21:13:13 Digital-Pioneer: not all my ogg vorbis files... just some of them Jan 10 21:14:34 quatrox1: Well I just tossed a few OGGs onto the card and it's playing them smoothly enough as long as I don't mess with it. Jan 10 21:15:30 And I'm sure I can't use neoqplayer on SHR right? Jan 10 21:15:51 why not? Jan 10 21:16:59 Can I get Qt4/Phonon/all that good stuff on SHR? Jan 10 21:17:48 Stable Hybride Release is supposed to support Qt Jan 10 21:21:33 Bah, no ipk anyways. :( Jan 10 21:28:49 henk: I want to put in mtd partition map for clarity, any idea what kinda wikimark I should use for citing large code output ? Jan 10 21:30:11 pre Jan 10 21:30:56 almien: thanks Jan 10 21:33:33 why does SHR by default not support "import urllib" in python? Jan 10 21:36:55 how do you thing I should put clearly that using nandwrite, you are overwriting nand directly on the phone and not from a computer ? Jan 10 21:37:18 I'm thinking: 'This approach involves writing the nand directly on the phone, not necessarily via usb.' Jan 10 21:43:34 allright, could someone familiar with wikis please check this for clarity? its my first major edit :) http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Flashing_the_Neo_Freerunner#Alternative:_using_nandwrite Jan 10 22:21:35 jc: it breaks a little bit the structure of the page knowing only dfu-util ;-) Jan 10 22:22:09 one solution could to place it about dfu-util. Jan 10 22:37:36 Could anyone point me towards a python-elementary primer? Or maybe a good example of python code using it? Thanks Jan 10 22:38:06 woooo Jan 10 22:41:15 bernt: yep.. I don't know how to structure wiki pages unfortunately... Jan 10 22:42:55 bernt: maybe make a seperate pages dfu-util and nandwrite ? Jan 10 22:43:10 I think that would be kinda unnecessary though Jan 10 22:45:15 Toaster`: pythoon for what purpose? what type of code do yu want to write? Jan 10 22:45:30 or you can place it at the bottom of the page ... Jan 10 22:45:47 bernt: ok Jan 10 22:46:23 almien: it's for some personal interest work and I'm interested in it Jan 10 22:46:44 bernt: is that a minor edit? (moving a section) Jan 10 22:46:49 though I found the code for the elementary test script, which helps. Jan 10 22:47:34 the structure at the bottom is already broken ;-) Troubleshooting should be the last Chapter I think. Jan 10 22:48:04 Toaster`: you found some tutorials? good stuff! Jan 10 22:48:22 bernt: ok so I'll move troubleshooting below it and see also to the bottom, ok ? Jan 10 22:49:04 try it, its a wiki, if someone has a better idea he will change it ... Jan 10 22:50:05 bernt: ok, see the latest revision Jan 10 22:54:09 almien: no tutorials, source code Jan 10 22:54:42 though for a different elementary version then I have on my phone. I'll have to sort it out after dinner. I'm outta here for now. Cheers. Jan 10 22:56:33 * rooly sighs Jan 10 22:56:38 Toaster`: ok good luck, have a nice dinner Jan 10 22:56:41 seems i will no longer be using my fr as a phone Jan 10 22:58:17 * almien never phoned anyone with it. who can I phone to test audio quality? Jan 10 22:59:23 almien: yourself on your land line? Jan 10 22:59:27 rooly: why? Jan 10 23:00:08 cause i've been using a crappy nokia for less than a day now and its done the phone job so reliably, its not even funny Jan 10 23:00:44 ...its like a huge burden of stress is gone, wondering if my phone will work at all for the next call Jan 10 23:00:51 Wonka: define 'can't hear yoursself think" == phone purself to test the phone Jan 10 23:01:25 with my provider, I can't phone myself Jan 10 23:01:29 i mean, it usually did...but there was that little voice in the back of my head Jan 10 23:01:46 at least I still can jack off Jan 10 23:01:57 ? Jan 10 23:02:05 (silly joke) Jan 10 23:02:34 m Jan 10 23:02:46 at least, the GPS and GPRS parts work Jan 10 23:02:58 those are more important for me atm Jan 10 23:03:26 although it would be nice not to need to carry a phone also Jan 10 23:03:47 * rooly is probably gonna convert start using his FR as a make-shift gps device and music player Jan 10 23:04:09 gps with free moving map Jan 10 23:04:16 (tangogps, navit) Jan 10 23:04:33 btw. what is navit good for? I couldn't figure out Jan 10 23:04:38 navit is pointless for me, since i don't have access to road maps of anywhere i am Jan 10 23:04:53 oh.. that would be it Jan 10 23:04:57 navit is a navigation app Jan 10 23:05:22 ok phone yourself you just get your parents wondering why you woke them in middle of night :( Jan 10 23:05:26 you give it maps, point a, and point b, it provides a graphical interface for your navigation Jan 10 23:05:45 and where does GPS come in ? Jan 10 23:05:52 does it show like 'turn left here' or something ? Jan 10 23:05:57 yeah Jan 10 23:06:01 great :) Jan 10 23:06:03 almien: then call your freerunner from your landline Jan 10 23:06:05 I'd love to have road maps Jan 10 23:06:08 its a navigation program Jan 10 23:06:23 there are zero roadmaps for my area Jan 10 23:06:24 jc: tangogps uses bitmaps from openstreetmap.org Jan 10 23:06:32 aside from proprietary gps device maps Jan 10 23:06:51 jc: you can also record tracks with it and later edit OSM maps based on those tracks Jan 10 23:06:51 can those be converted ? Jan 10 23:06:57 tango is for location and mapping. navit is for navigation Jan 10 23:07:01 rooly: not even OSM? Jan 10 23:07:02 jc: to what? Jan 10 23:07:10 wonka, nope Jan 10 23:07:13 almien: so that they can be used with tangogps Jan 10 23:07:19 (proprietary maps) Jan 10 23:07:23 rooly: where the F are you? Jan 10 23:07:26 rooly! Jan 10 23:07:30 because all the others suck in my area Jan 10 23:07:33 incl. google maps Jan 10 23:07:35 even Gaza is being mapped... Jan 10 23:07:35 i hail from southern louisiana Jan 10 23:07:43 rooly, clearly you live in the middle of nowhere Jan 10 23:07:44 and i am in northern backwater mississippi right now Jan 10 23:07:46 or in the ocean :p Jan 10 23:07:48 hahaha :D Jan 10 23:07:49 I'm from a village in Czech Republic Jan 10 23:07:52 * Dave high-fives rooly Jan 10 23:07:57 as far as osm is concerned, i do Jan 10 23:08:00 * rooly highfives back Jan 10 23:08:10 * mwester is surprised rooly even has cell towers nearby! Jan 10 23:08:10 :P Jan 10 23:08:17 then you both need to take your FRs and record tracks whereever you go Jan 10 23:08:22 and at least upload them to OSM Jan 10 23:08:24 where i come from, only 3 people have ever even heard of openmoko Jan 10 23:08:31 Mwester, they probably have a few bayou repeaters :p Jan 10 23:08:32 you know usa isn't the only part of the world :D Jan 10 23:08:35 others can then edit maps based on your tracks Jan 10 23:08:44 jc: I think that tilenames are similar URL betwerrn different providers:http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Slippy_map_tilenames#Tiles Jan 10 23:09:00 mwester, its not the cell thing, its that there are so few foss users around me Jan 10 23:09:13 i'm practically one in a million around here Jan 10 23:09:16 Dave: with special codes for network disconnects: E_ALLIGATOR_BIT_CABLE Jan 10 23:09:23 :D Jan 10 23:09:24 theres this little place called europe and most of it isn't mapped :/ Jan 10 23:09:26 *chomp* Jan 10 23:09:42 We have E_TORNADO here. Jan 10 23:09:51 lol Jan 10 23:10:10 we could have E_SOMEONE_STOLEN_CABLES Jan 10 23:10:18 its popular stealing copper here Jan 10 23:10:31 haha yeah Jan 10 23:10:37 we were just hearing about that the other night Jan 10 23:10:43 Actually, the golf courses in Florida have some interesting course rules, for cases where your ball lands too close to an alligator on the course! Jan 10 23:10:44 some idiots tried to steal copper from powerlines Jan 10 23:10:49 yes Jan 10 23:10:50 and electrocuted themselves somewhere? Jan 10 23:10:50 rooly: this: http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=49.6416&lon=10.598&zoom=13&layers=B000FTF is a "middle of nowhere" village in germany that had a hacker camp happen on it... Jan 10 23:10:52 not only power line s:D Jan 10 23:10:53 retards Jan 10 23:11:00 also manhole covers and stuff Jan 10 23:11:03 rooly: you'll notice how well it is mapped... Jan 10 23:11:03 rofl Jan 10 23:11:10 pretty inconvinient to drive over Jan 10 23:11:35 its cuz scrapyard owners don't ask where you got that stuff and there are no laws for that Jan 10 23:11:52 jc: is that the same europe which contains UK (OSM founders), DE (OSM germans, beware), NL (OSM wins, heheh!) or are you in one of the bits we didn't reach yet? Jan 10 23:11:52 jc: what? germany is quite well mapped, i think Jan 10 23:11:53 yeah, well, Wonka, i don't know any other hackers personally Jan 10 23:12:03 and i'm not about to go do all that work for myself Jan 10 23:12:13 almien: kinda closer to the center, Czech Republic Jan 10 23:12:21 since...ya know...i already know the roads Jan 10 23:12:56 still, you can't search for example for a nearby ATM or train station and stuff Jan 10 23:13:05 (yes, suprisingly, we have such facilities :D) Jan 10 23:13:43 czech rep... isn't that where "Pilsen" is? the town where they invented Real Beer? Jan 10 23:13:55 Wonka: yes Jan 10 23:14:06 Wonka: in czech the 'town' is called Plze? :) Jan 10 23:14:30 was tha a question mark or some broken letter? Jan 10 23:14:41 jc: looks like OSM has maybe one person in capital there: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Czech_Progress- you could consider it good or bad that you're th first one to attempt the area! Jan 10 23:14:44 Wonka: and theyr beer is called Pilsner Urquell or something like that Jan 10 23:14:58 sounds like it Jan 10 23:15:12 in czech it's Plze?sk? prazdroj I think Jan 10 23:15:16 * Wonka does not drink beer at all Jan 10 23:15:24 me neither.. only ocassionaly Jan 10 23:15:30 and i think your non-ascii letters appear broken here Jan 10 23:15:54 my irssi usually understands utf-8 and latin1/latin9 Jan 10 23:15:55 damn.. I thought this was utf-8 capable, sorry Jan 10 23:16:00 here in UK, we have to travell hundreds of miles to reach somewere that isn't mapped Jan 10 23:16:11 almien: aka "ocean"? Jan 10 23:16:25 the guys on oil platforms wouldn't like that ;) Jan 10 23:16:39 :) Jan 10 23:16:51 here are still some roads / dirt tracks / cement tracks and other small stuff that isnt mapped Jan 10 23:17:06 thats a pretty bad thing.. Jan 10 23:17:06 and anyway, there's many buildings left to map Jan 10 23:17:09 house numbers Jan 10 23:17:13 open source maps aren't a good idea... Jan 10 23:17:18 you can't rely on them.. Jan 10 23:17:20 haha Jan 10 23:17:22 Wonka: no, there are UK cities where nobody is rich eough to own a GPS :( and we have no maps of some veyy local places Jan 10 23:17:26 good for stalking! Jan 10 23:17:32 there are proffesional agencies for doing such stuff Jan 10 23:17:44 (mapping terrain) Jan 10 23:17:51 I beleive it was called cartography or something Jan 10 23:18:15 too bad those people don't contribute to OSM Jan 10 23:19:31 ack Jan 10 23:19:53 synflood Jan 10 23:19:55 in some countries, USA for example, such data needs to be accessible, afaik... Jan 10 23:20:05 because the taxpayer already paid for it Jan 10 23:20:24 jc: just got a reply: apparently we import http://www.uhul.cz/en/ (no idea about anyone locally who's interested though...) Jan 10 23:20:28 here we have extremely good free webmaps comparable to google Jan 10 23:20:29 here in germany, you might have to pay for geodata Jan 10 23:21:01 but in gps navigations, we pay for maps Jan 10 23:21:57 Wonka: just wait for them to pay contractors to produce that data and suddenly decie that it's not PD anymore.... Jan 10 23:22:18 almien: who "them"? USA? Jan 10 23:22:22 hah Jan 10 23:22:28 almien: FOIA Act! Jan 10 23:22:34 er, FOI Act Jan 10 23:22:40 pfft Jan 10 23:23:03 another pretty bad thing here: we have 'free' public transportation databases Jan 10 23:23:09 jc: assess legal status, and then map OSM from those webmaps Jan 10 23:23:11 as in you can download them freely and you have specs Jan 10 23:23:29 but only apps that can read them are proprietary (paid) Jan 10 23:23:44 its an ugly binary format, probably already straying a lot from the specs Jan 10 23:23:49 write your own GPL'd reader app :) Jan 10 23:24:18 yeah, I wanted to do that for fr recently Jan 10 23:24:30 but now I got my os broken so I'm investigating that... Jan 10 23:24:36 Wonka: governments in general, your last one seemed weirder han most. they used to be able to contract private companies to do what they used to do themselves, and because they paid someone it wasn't government, therefore wasn't public-domain? Jan 10 23:25:25 almien: hm. i'd like have an example trial fought against such stuff... Jan 10 23:25:33 almien: if i had the money... Jan 10 23:27:00 anyway, bedtime Jan 10 23:27:17 Wonka: never litigate against anyone who changes the law to suit their own benefits... Jan 10 23:54:37 what's the normal speed of dialup? Jan 10 23:54:43 kbps Jan 10 23:58:35 56k modem achieves a throughput of what, 14-20 usually? Jan 11 00:00:58 rooly: they are 2MB/sec Jan 11 00:03:37 impossible Jan 11 00:03:45 a 56k dialup modem? Jan 11 00:04:27 heck ya Jan 11 00:04:44 no idea why wore people don't use dialup Jan 11 00:04:52 if thats the case, shit, i'm going back to dialup Jan 11 00:05:23 I hope you realize I'm joking Jan 11 00:05:32 oh, i know you are Jan 11 00:05:38 i'm not so sure about almien tho Jan 11 00:05:51 making sure Jan 11 00:05:53 hehe Jan 11 00:06:02 gawd i'm bored Jan 11 00:06:31 see, its due to the fact that there's this hot chick i know that i'd much rather be spending time with than you losers. Jan 11 00:06:41 nothing against you guys...its just yall aren't hot chicks Jan 11 00:06:50 make cpu freq scaling work on my FR? Jan 11 00:06:58 sounds pretty sexy to me Jan 11 00:07:07 yeah, totally Jan 11 00:07:24 an ass outta dis world Jan 11 00:07:35 i never really paid attention to anything other than the face until now Jan 11 00:07:38 i mean dayum Jan 11 00:07:40 but whatever Jan 11 00:07:49 im sure i've given somebody in here a hardon already Jan 11 00:07:53 so i shall be quiet Jan 11 00:09:35 rooly:me? I'm just reading the OFCOM report that says everyone in UK was lied-to about the speed of their internet connection... Jan 11 00:09:52 oh Jan 11 00:10:09 * rooly laughs at that Jan 11 00:10:43 i'm glad i live in the US and can trust my isp's to be honest about their data throughput speeds Jan 11 00:11:18 * rooly is flashing the shit out of his FR Jan 11 00:11:24 ya know...since i don't need to make phone calls anymore Jan 11 00:11:41 * rooly is just gonna use it for pre-pay internet usage Jan 11 00:11:45 1Mb/s for $25/month...I hate isp's Jan 11 00:12:08 with a usage cap too, right? Jan 11 00:12:13 * rooly laughs again Jan 11 00:12:19 * rooly cries inside as well... Jan 11 00:12:21 bbl Jan 11 00:12:23 food time Jan 11 00:12:33 no cap that I know of Jan 11 00:12:41 haven't reached it at least Jan 11 00:31:52 wathell Jan 11 00:54:15 So, who's gonna buy me a bluetooth? :) Jan 11 00:55:34 Digital-Pioneer: pull one out of your mouth and paint it blue :D Jan 11 00:55:42 open source, bitch :D Jan 11 00:55:54 i have a holey tooth you can get Jan 11 00:55:59 lol Jan 11 00:56:06 a diy bluetooth Jan 11 00:56:20 jc: Yeah, the noise cancelling on those is absolute CRAP though. Jan 11 00:56:58 I'd rather get the real deal, and have it work. :) Jan 11 00:56:58 nah, mine gives a nice, clean signal of pain just about constantly Jan 11 00:56:58 * rooly sighs Jan 11 00:56:58 should be no problem to filter out Jan 11 00:57:09 lol Jan 11 00:57:20 tordo: might wanna add a cappacitor there Jan 11 00:58:40 yeah maybe Jan 11 01:11:09 rooly: was it 2KB/s not 2MB/s? I might have blanked-out the memory of that factor-of-1024 difference between very slow (expensive) and ridiculously slow (less expensive) Jan 11 01:12:41 lol Jan 11 01:12:49 it might have been, almien Jan 11 01:14:16 nowadays it's much better; you get a maximum bandwidth approximately 30% of what they claimed in the advert Jan 11 01:15:02 god i love this list Jan 11 01:15:02 http://artlung.com/smorgasborg/how_to_tick_people_off.shtml Jan 11 01:17:45 ;p; Jan 11 01:17:47 lol Jan 11 01:19:44 jc: i'd use
i guess Jan 11 01:20:06 henk: welcome back ;) Jan 11 01:20:15 henk: I already added it, you can have a look ;) Jan 11 01:20:15 jc: thanks :) Jan 11 01:20:20 ok Jan 11 01:20:53 henk: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Flashing_the_Neo_Freerunner#Alternative:_using_nandwrite Jan 11 01:22:39 jc: thanks, i'm already looking at the diff... Jan 11 01:27:20 whats the 'factory' partition (mtd5) for? Jan 11 01:27:48 henk: dunno, maybe u-boot environment Jan 11 01:27:56 no, thats u-boot_env Jan 11 01:28:05 a default uboot environment Jan 11 01:28:58 hm, bt, wlan and usb ids/macs, imei and serial number in ascii files.... Jan 11 01:35:00 * rooly is bored Jan 11 01:58:53 So, is there a way to initiate an SSH session over bluetooth from my Freerunner to my Linux-enabled laptop without having to run any commands on the laptop to listen for the BT connection? I'd rather if I could just do the whole connection from the FR. Jan 11 02:00:43 pretty fundamentally only if the laptop is listening to BT +BNEP and has ssh listening Jan 11 02:01:13 Well, I can do it, but I have to run several commands on both the FR and the laptop to do it. Jan 11 02:02:16 Have to do some messing with pand and ifconfig Jan 11 02:02:18 of course Jan 11 02:02:43 set it up on laptop so it always runs Jan 11 02:03:21 But until I have an actual connection, bnep0 doesn't exist and I can't ifconfig it. Jan 11 02:04:25 so script scanning bt regularly or something Jan 11 02:05:02 But there's no (in-place) way to have it just accept and autoconfigure the connection when the FR comes a-calling? :P Jan 11 02:05:20 i have no idea what your OS may do Jan 11 02:05:54 For the most part it does whatever I tell it to. ;) Jan 11 02:06:32 so tell it to do what you want. Jan 11 02:07:11 Yes, and the question is how. :) Jan 11 02:08:50 * SpeedEvil drops the python, bash, gcc manuals on Digital-Pioneers head. Jan 11 02:08:51 Digital-Pioneer: The answer depends almost entirely on your host distro and release level; you'll have to google for how to set it up. (the bluez people don't seem to care about compatibility or consistency very much) Jan 11 02:09:10 Heheheh Jan 11 02:09:34 It should be pretty simple with no scripting of any significance on the laptop side; the Om side will require a bit of work. Jan 11 02:09:40 * Digital-Pioneer gives SpeedEvil back his manuals grumbling about man not being installed on the FR. :P Jan 11 02:10:18 Well, I'm all for scripting as long as I only have to run commands on one system when I need to activate the connection. Jan 11 02:10:23 * mwester-laptop had his gta01 autoconnecting over bt to an NSLU2 running SlugOS with a bridged BT configuration. Jan 11 02:13:36 * rooly laughs at himself Jan 11 02:24:47 General question. Is wifi at all more stable on SHR or with FSO? Or is it still an issue of major tweaking (outside of wpa_suplicant.conf, of course) Jan 11 02:25:21 And I mean SHR/FSO in comparison to 2008.X Jan 11 02:56:16 Toaster`: using wpa_supplicant, I can connect to all of the networks I have available, what do you mean outside of wpa_supplicant? Jan 11 02:56:45 (on shr-unstable) Jan 11 02:57:26 I'm not seeing any stability problems **** ENDING LOGGING AT Sun Jan 11 02:59:57 2009