**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Thu Jan 15 02:59:57 2009 Jan 15 03:02:29 gurugentoo: raster has already done a replacement for cron :-) Jan 15 03:02:37 no Jan 15 03:05:22 rooly :) Jan 15 03:05:31 yo yo yo Jan 15 03:05:56 * rooly installed qtopia again so for to use the bluetooth capabilities and the gprs configurator Jan 15 03:06:04 but...qtopia can't seem to pair with my keyboard Jan 15 03:06:11 so it looks like i'll be going back to asu Jan 15 03:11:47 especially since om just got a new gprs settings app Jan 15 03:12:52 gurugentoo: thx Jan 15 03:12:56 er Jan 15 03:13:03 DocScrutinizer: thx Jan 15 03:13:33 raster: could you elaborate? Jan 15 03:14:43 not now Jan 15 03:14:44 lunch Jan 15 03:14:45 bbl Jan 15 03:14:46 :) Jan 15 03:15:28 * DocScrutinizer away to take a deep breath Jan 15 03:24:04 assy Jan 15 03:27:56 * rooly is gonna test out using his new bt keyboard and get used to it on here first Jan 15 03:32:19 good stuff :) Jan 15 03:32:25 rooly, is it tiny? Jan 15 03:32:37 igo ultraslikm Jan 15 03:32:39 so..yeah Jan 15 03:32:43 woops, lemme type on it Jan 15 03:32:55 the slashes are placed rather awkwardly Jan 15 03:33:09 but other than that, its quite nice to type on Jan 15 03:33:38 would obviously work best on a table or some other solid place, but its got its own quite solid base so thats not a big dea Jan 15 03:41:11 oooh Jan 15 03:41:27 sounds nice rooly Jan 15 03:41:37 I've been looking for a nice one, but they're hard to find Jan 15 03:41:46 i would definitely recomend it Jan 15 03:41:48 also I'd be more inclined to purchase one that works! Jan 15 03:41:51 :) Jan 15 03:41:53 however, it doesn't seem to pair properly with qtopia Jan 15 03:42:09 but people tell me the script in the wiki makes it work with pretty much to problem Jan 15 03:42:11 hmm Jan 15 03:42:46 no Jan 15 03:42:47 * Jan 15 03:44:25 to->no Jan 15 03:44:26 nvm Jan 15 03:44:28 you get it Jan 15 04:01:38 Yeah I did :p Jan 15 04:02:15 * rooly is reinstalling asu... Jan 15 04:02:32 why is my laptop's dfu-util so slow Jan 15 04:20:50 what is BTgps anyways? Jan 15 04:23:45 does something show peers in the area or something? Jan 15 05:25:54 i have the .28 kernel installed on the shr -russia Jan 15 05:30:01 no sound but the dialer calls out Jan 15 05:33:01 would opkg install the kernel nicely so the sound works? Jan 15 05:36:53 i hope that 111.4 meg rootfs is a go Jan 15 05:40:57 gta02 has 256m flash Jan 15 05:41:02 so as long as its less than 250m Jan 15 05:41:03 no probs Jan 15 05:41:37 wonder what took up that much spach Jan 15 05:43:14 yo momma Jan 15 05:44:59 raster if i used thar .28 kernel on shr what problems with alsa-sound could bother me? Jan 15 05:45:13 its the russia -shr Jan 15 05:45:28 or whoever those guys are Jan 15 05:45:57 :) Jan 15 05:47:28 it has the keyboard i wanted installed by default:) Jan 15 05:48:03 no idea Jan 15 05:48:09 everything worked to Jan 15 05:55:24 alright, which toolchain should I use for building an app? the toolchain page on the wiki is not working, or it's not doing what I was expecting at least, is there a newer page I should look at? Jan 15 05:55:56 oh bollocks Jan 15 05:56:03 :-) Jan 15 05:56:05 angstom is majorly b0rked on gta02 Jan 15 05:56:56 raster: tried to updat after adding the feed I'm guessing? Jan 15 05:57:15 i'm building my own images frolm oe upstream Jan 15 05:57:28 ah Jan 15 05:57:29 i rebased distro off angstrom so beagleboard support was there Jan 15 05:57:36 but its borked for several other platforms Jan 15 05:57:42 like gta02 Jan 15 05:57:53 and even zaurus and palmt650 is partly borked Jan 15 05:58:15 i also need to get a build for my overo now Jan 15 06:01:01 is MokoMakefile still the normal way to build a toolchain? Jan 15 06:02:37 i go direct from oe Jan 15 06:03:09 ok Jan 15 06:50:53 good morning Jan 15 06:58:35 raster: emdebian is the solution for platform problems Jan 15 07:02:12 rawtatoor: giggle. um.. yeah.. sure... let me know when it actuallyu is of a size that can fit into flash Jan 15 07:02:33 and has a comprehensive multi-target cross-compile setup Jan 15 07:02:52 so i can build for beagleboard, overo, gta02, zaurus, n800 and treo650 Jan 15 07:02:56 as well as a nuch of other Jan 15 07:02:59 others Jan 15 07:04:20 debian is so much better *whine* than opkg crap Jan 15 07:06:24 i dont much care Jan 15 07:06:26 opkg works Jan 15 07:06:34 debian does not Jan 15 07:06:40 (haha) Jan 15 07:08:07 debian is so big the base cant even be flashed Jan 15 07:08:25 its close to to double the flash available on my freerunner and omap3530 and omap3503 boards Jan 15 07:08:37 it doesnt support all my dev targets Jan 15 07:08:42 i use ubuntu as a desktop Jan 15 07:08:48 anyway I don't know what you mean, embebian images are 10 megs bare bones Jan 15 07:08:49 so dont think i am some debian hater Jan 15 07:09:07 rawtatoor: debian port for freerunner is about 400m Jan 15 07:09:23 anyway Jan 15 07:09:25 dinner time Jan 15 07:09:25 :) Jan 15 07:10:32 24M emdebian-gpe-arm.tgz 24M 2008-12-19 15:04 sshfs/war/emdebian-gpe-arm.tgz Jan 15 07:11:15 9.9M 2008-12-19 14:20 sshfs/war/emdebian-simple-arm.tgz Jan 15 07:11:21 so fat Jan 15 07:35:28 check this out: http://ftfa.us/Verona-twilight-1-1-09.jpg Jan 15 07:55:28 rawtatoor: is that a single exposure or a stitched panorama? Jan 15 08:07:04 stitched panorama Jan 15 08:10:06 nice Jan 15 08:12:34 neat software. it's for windows but runs under wine ok Jan 15 08:47:33 good morning Jan 15 08:54:30 Is there someone working at Openmoko here? Jan 15 08:54:42 I can't reach them **** BEGIN LOGGING AT Thu Jan 15 09:00:27 2009 Jan 15 09:35:12 Anyone home? Jan 15 09:35:22 I'm fucking bored Jan 15 09:35:51 hi, sounds nice Jan 15 09:36:51 Sargun: you know what to do, git clone on shr-project and start to help :-p Jan 15 09:37:01 LOL Jan 15 09:37:09 lol Jan 15 09:37:15 i offer a git clone on paroli Jan 15 09:37:21 Who here rides public transportation? Jan 15 09:37:41 I do Jan 15 09:37:47 i do, but not atm... Jan 15 09:37:58 moin Jan 15 09:38:16 I have an idea, a media broadcasting system for trains/buses, much like airplanes, but with a few key difference Jan 15 09:38:36 A) People have to provide their own frontends (iPhone, Laptop, etc...) Jan 15 09:38:37 Sargun: do these key differences imply p0rn? Jan 15 09:38:48 B) Content will be "Cheap" or free.. Jan 15 09:38:53 C) Content will be shorter Jan 15 09:39:01 Sargun: so you mean usenet but in airplanes? :-) Jan 15 09:39:07 Ainulindale, in rail. Jan 15 09:39:59 As a first rev, just stick a simple WiFi access point in a train car, and put a bunch of podcasts on a NAS connected to it Jan 15 09:40:03 make a nice looking interface Jan 15 09:40:21 The idea is podcasts, shows, live TV (tearing data off DVB) Jan 15 09:40:31 hi Jan 15 09:40:36 (or sat) Jan 15 09:40:40 acathla, hey, how are you Jan 15 09:40:41 Is there someone working at Openmoko here? I can't reach them Jan 15 09:40:44 What do you guys think? Jan 15 09:40:49 acathla, What do you need? Jan 15 09:40:56 an intern =) Jan 15 09:41:05 you want to intern for OM? Jan 15 09:41:22 it would be the perfect internship (in electronics) Jan 15 09:41:23 an intern or an internship? Jan 15 09:41:35 it's the same Jan 15 09:41:43 it's not? Jan 15 09:41:55 An intern is a person, an internship is what does an intern Jan 15 09:42:05 But as I'm not a native english speaker, it's just my opinion Jan 15 09:42:09 acathla, is english your first language? Jan 15 09:42:11 acathla, Are you in .tw? Jan 15 09:42:12 i need an internship Jan 15 09:42:23 acathla, what location Jan 15 09:42:24 of course english is not my first language =) Jan 15 09:42:26 Ainulindale is correct. Jan 15 09:42:30 i'm in France Jan 15 09:42:31 acathla, where are you located? Jan 15 09:42:33 ah. Jan 15 09:42:42 oh, you should harass Ainulindale, he's in france too. Jan 15 09:42:50 =) Jan 15 09:43:15 acathla, Anyways, I'm sure OM, Inc. would be open to getting an intern, but I'm also sure they'd like someone in .tw Jan 15 09:43:19 No I'm not. I'm, well... not there. :-> Jan 15 09:43:29 Ainulindale, an intern can be the person or what he's doing, I think I checks that on wikipedia or another dict Jan 15 09:43:29 In fact I'm going to flee now =) Jan 15 09:43:38 hahah Jan 15 09:44:15 hej acathla Jan 15 09:44:20 Sargun, they hired guys from different countries already Jan 15 09:44:26 acathla, for software primarily Jan 15 09:44:31 yes Jan 15 09:44:31 acathla: not according to my dictionnary Jan 15 09:44:38 or for a very specific hardware activity Jan 15 09:44:40 (it's ugly, but first result: http://www.docguide.com/dgc.nsf/html/english-dictionnary.htm) Jan 15 09:44:43 acathla, Ainulindale is correct. Jan 15 09:44:59 Sargun: I'm often correct these days, I don't know what got into me Jan 15 09:45:03 Interns are people, like employees, and internships are positions.. Jan 15 09:45:09 Maybe that's the benefit when you grow old Jan 15 09:45:10 Ainulindale, Don't get to full of yourself. :-P Jan 15 09:45:20 Sargun: Oh, I don't, I'm still a lazy pain in the ass Jan 15 09:45:45 Sargun, I know, but internship can be shorten to intern Jan 15 09:45:57 acathla, no, it cannot Jan 15 09:46:00 but I should say: i want to DO an intern Jan 15 09:46:01 Never heard about that acathla. Jan 15 09:46:07 really? Jan 15 09:46:12 let me check =) Jan 15 09:46:12 acathla: if you want to do an intern, should it be a girl or a boy? Jan 15 09:46:17 "Do an intern" makes you sound like a gay US senator. Jan 15 09:46:23 LOL Jan 15 09:46:25 Sargun: kindred spirit o/ Jan 15 09:46:26 Are you larry craig? Jan 15 09:46:38 acathla what do you want to do during your internship? Jan 15 09:46:58 mirko-paroli, other interns apparently. Jan 15 09:47:10 @sargun LOL Jan 15 09:47:25 @sargun and if there is only one? ok, let's close the door on that Jan 15 09:47:40 haha ok, i won't do an intern Jan 15 09:47:54 mirko-paroli, anything related to electronics Jan 15 09:47:59 that' pitty Jan 15 09:48:13 acathla, design? building? constructing? Jan 15 09:48:13 acathla: I was prepared as an intern :) Jan 15 09:48:31 I studied computer science and worked a bit already but now i'm doing a master in electronics Jan 15 09:48:35 acathla: if you're in paris there are internship at Télécom ParisTech (my former school) Jan 15 09:48:44 it's supposed to be one of the top schools in electronics engineering Jan 15 09:48:59 (my 2 cents) Jan 15 09:49:06 acathla, Fix #1024. Jan 15 09:49:34 of course Ainulindale but, I prefere industry... Jan 15 09:49:56 Sargun, what? Jan 15 09:49:58 acathla, Do you need a formal internship? Jan 15 09:50:01 acathla, bug #1024 Jan 15 09:50:26 you mean an official internship? yes Jan 15 09:50:47 what that bug #1024? Jan 15 09:51:20 why an official internship Jan 15 09:51:23 and, nevermind, it's ok Jan 15 09:51:57 i'm doing a master, and I need an internship to finish it Jan 15 09:52:06 6 month Jan 15 09:52:16 oh Jan 15 09:52:34 acathla, There isn't much electronics work you could do unless you have your own workbench... Jan 15 09:52:48 I mean, you could make #1024 your thesis... :-P Jan 15 09:53:11 What is your thesis Jan 15 09:53:17 Sargun, there is no electronics projects at openmoko? Jan 15 09:53:44 I don't want to do a thesis, i'm too old I won't have money for it Jan 15 09:53:47 acathla, There are, but my assumption is they'd want you in .tw Jan 15 09:54:03 unless you provide your own tools.. Jan 15 09:54:11 Of course I'll have to go to Taiwan Jan 15 09:54:25 acathla, Contact steve mosher. Jan 15 09:54:41 I never thought of doing an internship from home Jan 15 09:54:48 he's marketing, but he generally knows where do send people. Jan 15 09:54:51 steve@openmoko.com? Jan 15 09:54:54 oups Jan 15 09:55:06 well it's on their website Jan 15 09:55:29 I'd hit steve + hr Jan 15 09:55:40 Eventually Joerg Jan 15 09:55:43 I sent my resume to hr Jan 15 09:55:44 DocScrutinizer: piiiiing Jan 15 09:56:02 a week and a half ago Jan 15 09:56:24 who's Joerg? Jan 15 09:56:46 acathla, Joerg is DocScrutinizer Jan 15 09:57:01 acathla, Send it to Steve, make your intentions very clear, he's spread thin Jan 15 09:57:14 ok Jan 15 10:22:55 somewhen somewhere i'v seen a screenshot with an app icon that looks like a clock, or even IS a functional icon-clock... Is there such an app? Jan 15 10:26:07 there is a clock on the main page of the wiki =) Jan 15 10:26:32 hum, it's an animated gif Jan 15 10:45:18 Anyone got emacs on their FR? :) Jan 15 12:18:05 how do i refresh application icons under illume? Jan 15 12:21:21 you change the .desktop file and it detects the change and refreshes Jan 15 12:22:58 but in case i changed the icon file itself, it wont detect that :< Jan 15 12:32:21 zogg_: perhaps you can change the icon file, then touch the .desktop file. Jan 15 12:32:25 will it update then? Jan 15 12:34:20 nnope Jan 15 12:38:39 adding space to the EOF does the trick Jan 15 12:40:20 but thats temporary workaround Jan 15 12:43:29 what module or app looks upon .desktop files? Jan 15 12:57:05 hello ;) are there any more recent android images than sean's? Jan 15 13:01:27 Why android? It even doesn't have the full sources, GSM part is still closed! Screw that! Jan 15 13:02:14 PaulFertser_: what would you suggest? none of the other distributions i tried were even remotely in a usable state Jan 15 13:02:38 SHR Jan 15 13:02:51 PaulFertser_: yeah you're right :D Jan 15 13:03:18 Trying to associate with 00:30:f1:d1:93:a0 (SSID='JLAN' freq=2462 MHz) Jan 15 13:03:18 Authentication with 00:30:f1:d1:93:a0 timed out. Jan 15 13:03:23 how do i fix this issue? Jan 15 13:03:31 PaulFertser_: that's flattering :-) Jan 15 13:03:39 ecraven: if you needed a working closed phone, you'd better buy nokia or whatever. Jan 15 13:04:41 i need a working open phone ;) Jan 15 13:04:58 ecraven: you'll never get that with android anyway, imho. Jan 15 13:05:35 http://panicking.kicks-ass.org/blog/ Jan 15 13:05:35 i'd like at least reliable texting and phoning (and the freerunner has the worst speech quality of any phone i ever tried, though that might be a mixer problem with all the distros i tried) Jan 15 13:05:37 Bish: have you tried maxperf setting? It solved some instablity issues for some users. Jan 15 13:05:50 i'll have another look at SHR ;) Jan 15 13:06:10 PaulFertser_: i dont know this setting Jan 15 13:06:54 Bish: wmiconfig -i eth0 --power maxperf Jan 15 13:07:14 Bish: what type of AP is that, what kernel are you using? Jan 15 13:07:32 i think its the "unstable" shr and it's kernel Jan 15 13:08:14 and i tried the ultraunstable kernel, but this didnt work either Jan 15 13:08:16 Bish: what kernrel are you using? Jan 15 13:08:25 lindi-: 2.6.44 Jan 15 13:08:27 .24* Jan 15 13:08:34 Bish: i'd recommend andy-tracking branch Jan 15 13:08:40 Bish: wlan changed a lot. You should be using andy-tracking to get any real results. Jan 15 13:08:50 wtf Jan 15 13:08:55 link? Jan 15 13:09:08 Bish: git.openmoko.org/linux-2.6 Jan 15 13:09:24 Bish: andy-tracking branch Jan 15 13:09:43 is there a precompiled image for that? Jan 15 13:10:10 Bish: it is a development branch Jan 15 13:10:15 lindi-: do you by any chance remember, who exactly has a problem that was solved by maxperf setting? Jan 15 13:10:54 PaulFertser_: no but the bug report might have it? Jan 15 13:10:55 Bish: there's a precompiled image in OE, i think. FSO's already switched to it. Jan 15 13:11:28 PaulFertser_: but i would like to continue using SHR Jan 15 13:11:29 Bish: any precompiled image will be too old since it is changing all the time. to be able to really follow the development you need to build it yourself i'm afraid Jan 15 13:11:46 lindi-: The reason i ask is that he might have missed the patch Werner prepared to try to debug this issue. I haven't seen any feedback from him, though i could catch him on IRC. Jan 15 13:11:56 lindi-: hm, do i have to compile the kernel, or the full image? Jan 15 13:12:02 Bish: kernel Jan 15 13:12:08 lindi-: ah i c. Jan 15 13:12:22 Bish: http://iki.fi/lindi/openmoko/kernel.txt is how i do it Jan 15 13:12:25 Bish: changes required are minimal. There even exist a patch to FSO ms4. Jan 15 13:13:19 PaulFertser_: my current trouble is audio recording. i'd very much like to experiment with push-to-talk but the audio recording bug makes it hard Jan 15 13:14:55 GSM not work, anybody can help me? Jan 15 13:16:09 RJ812: how does it fail? Jan 15 13:16:38 lindi-: i even dont have the armgcc *build* Jan 15 13:17:02 Bish: either use a distro that provides it or build it yourself Jan 15 13:17:14 linkdi: not GMS signal Jan 15 13:17:18 hi Jan 15 13:17:30 lindi-: im building it by myself Jan 15 13:17:36 do i have to write modules.dep etc. by myself? Jan 15 13:17:39 Bish: building cross-compilers is quite when you only need the compiler and no libraies Jan 15 13:17:39 http://public.smi.ethz.ch/files/MaemoOpenmoko/PublicDescriptiveStatistics.html 'My views about Nokia resp. Openmoko Inc. Jan 15 13:17:41 [The company's open source activities are well managed.]' Jan 15 13:17:45 resp? Jan 15 13:17:48 Bish: on target? Jan 15 13:18:17 GMS signal good on Nokia phone, but no signal on NEO :( Jan 15 13:18:32 what's the difference between shr and 2008.9 ? what's same? are there apps which run only on one operation system, or should basically every app run on these os? Jan 15 13:18:36 RJ812: sure you've got the right model? Jan 15 13:18:52 i using Om 2008.12 Jan 15 13:19:16 lindi-: I know. I see your efforts at kernel bug-tracker. I think you're going to succeed soon :) Jan 15 13:19:35 RJ812: what does AT+CSQ return? Jan 15 13:19:47 lindi-: target? what du mean, my hostprocessor is a amd64 Jan 15 13:20:08 Bish: i don't remember the story of modules.dep, depmod -a generated it? Jan 15 13:20:24 oh .. i c Jan 15 13:21:13 RJ812: what does AT+CSQ return? <-- what is AT+CSQ, how to get it? Jan 15 13:21:35 lindi-: cross-avr/gcc this would work, am i righ? Jan 15 13:21:55 Bish: no :) Jan 15 13:22:00 why? Jan 15 13:22:09 You need ARM, not AVR :) Jan 15 13:22:36 RJ812: it is an AT command. you send at commands to the GSM chip Jan 15 13:22:41 sorry :D i was confused, i recently compiled something for a ATMega8 :> Jan 15 13:23:19 i should manage to find time to play with my AVR too :P Jan 15 13:23:21 hm, so where do i find a armcompiler :> Jan 15 13:23:29 Bish: build it yourself? Jan 15 13:23:34 lindi-: src? Jan 15 13:23:35 RJ812: it is an AT command. you send at commands to the GSM chip <-- used dfu-util right? Jan 15 13:23:39 Bish: yeah Jan 15 13:23:41 Bish: see MokoMakefile on the wiki Jan 15 13:23:48 SpeedEvil: :( Jan 15 13:23:55 RJ812: nope, DFU is a protocol for uploading data over usb Jan 15 13:24:02 that will take forever Jan 15 13:24:10 Bish: no need to use whole mokomakefile Jan 15 13:24:24 Bish: or there is possibly a GCC package available for the FR. Use that. Jan 15 13:24:31 Bish: which may be lots easier. Jan 15 13:24:47 compiling on a 400 mhz arm? Jan 15 13:25:00 lindi- <- how to use AT commmand? Jan 15 13:25:02 Bish: just compile gcc Jan 15 13:25:14 RJ812: you have never talked to the GSM chip before? :/ Jan 15 13:25:14 Bish: 400MHz ARM is not slow. Jan 15 13:25:26 Bish: it'll take most of an hour to compile the kernel, but so? Jan 15 13:25:35 SpeedEvil: yeah , i know Jan 15 13:25:50 lindi-: i will , do i have to use the mokomakefile for that? Jan 15 13:25:52 Bish: get binutils and gcc source and unpack them Jan 15 13:26:09 .. hm? im using gentoo, i do have gcc Jan 15 13:26:25 is it able to create arm executeables? Jan 15 13:26:31 & link Jan 15 13:26:37 Bish: only if you compile it to target arm Jan 15 13:26:47 what about linking? Jan 15 13:27:01 Bish: that's why you compile binutils too, it has linker Jan 15 13:27:17 lindi-: yeah ld, but doesnt this only work for ~x86 binaries? Jan 15 13:27:22 hm.. SHR looks usable, how is the phone speech quality? Jan 15 13:27:25 hello guys Jan 15 13:27:34 i from VN, using Vinaphone with GSM 900 Jan 15 13:27:46 Bish: when you build binutils with --target=arm-elf it only works with ARM Jan 15 13:28:15 RJ812: vietnam? Jan 15 13:28:27 ys spaetz Jan 15 13:28:35 i dont get it Jan 15 13:28:56 lindi-: binutils will be only working on arm, isnt it? Jan 15 13:29:26 Bish: yes Jan 15 13:29:38 Bish: that's why you install it to some other directory than / Jan 15 13:29:50 Bish: http://iki.fi/lindi/openmoko/cross-compiler.txt should have the steps Jan 15 13:30:04 lindi-: thaks lindi, im quite confused, im sorry Jan 15 13:30:23 Bish: just ask if anything is unclear Jan 15 13:31:58 dont ask to ask , just ask to ask :) Jan 15 13:32:28 what the fuck im confused, if i build binutils with --target=arm-elf , binutils(ld, etc.) wont work on my host system, right? Jan 15 13:34:28 anyone would like to help porting vlc to om ? Jan 15 13:35:14 is rotating the screen in SHR supposed to work? Jan 15 13:36:43 gfather[a]: ecraven yep Jan 15 13:37:38 Bish: if i rotate 180 degrees, the touchscreen input is way off, had to reboot to get it working again Jan 15 13:38:05 how do i rotate screen in SHR? Jan 15 13:38:11 Wonka: settings Jan 15 13:38:13 under enlightenment settings Jan 15 13:38:52 Bish: Why don't you use cross-tools or whatever gentoo provides for cross-compiling? Jan 15 13:39:03 PaulFertser_: i dont know Jan 15 13:39:13 ho to use AT command on OM 2008.12, anybody can help me? Jan 15 13:39:27 PaulFertser_: it provides crossdev Jan 15 13:39:31 im so fuking confused :> Jan 15 13:39:49 Bish: good :) Jan 15 13:39:50 Bish: http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/base/embedded/cross-development.xml Jan 15 13:41:08 okay i will read that Jan 15 13:42:58 i guess gentoo on the freerunner is fun Jan 15 13:47:44 lindi-: is the kernel i just gitted from openmoko.org the same as the on @ kernel.org? Jan 15 13:48:09 Bish: you install the new binutils to a different dir Jan 15 13:48:35 no no.. git clone git://git.openmoko.org/git/kernel.git linux-2.6 Jan 15 13:48:41 is this one the same as from kernel.org? Jan 15 13:48:52 Bish: we do gentoo on the FR Jan 15 13:48:52 and we cross-compile the hell out of it Jan 15 13:48:59 Bish: It's not. Jan 15 13:49:00 Bish: you need to switch to andys branch Jan 15 13:49:19 lindi-: i know. first of all i need a toolchain :D just answer the question please Jan 15 13:49:20 Bish: it has branches with patches that are not mainline yet. Jan 15 13:49:20 bish kernel.org has many branches to Jan 15 13:49:32 yeah i know Jan 15 13:49:37 lindi-: how to use AT command on OM 2008.12, plz help me :( Jan 15 13:49:38 something's wrong with my face, i can *either* talk into the microphone, so other people hear me, *or* bring the neo to my ear, so i can hear what they say.. i never succeed in doing both.. Jan 15 13:49:59 RJ812: it uses gsmd? Jan 15 13:50:11 Bish: do you have your cross-toolchain already finished? Jan 15 13:50:30 sleipnir: no sir Jan 15 13:50:47 join #gentoo-openmoko Jan 15 13:51:08 i dont want to install gentoo on my FR Jan 15 13:51:20 first i need my 8 gb sdhc :> Jan 15 13:51:32 but you want to build a toolchain in gentoo right? Jan 15 13:51:40 yeeee Jan 15 13:51:43 emerge crossdev Jan 15 13:51:44 i use cm : gsmd -p /dev/ttySAC0 -F and it result: Wed Feb 9 16:31:38 2000 <1> machine.c:131:gsmd_machine_plugin_init() detected 'GTA02' hardware Jan 15 13:51:44 Wed Feb 9 16:31:38 2000 <1> machine.c:72:gsmd_machine_plugin_load() loading machine plugin "gta01" Jan 15 13:51:44 Wed Feb 9 16:31:38 2000 <1> vendor.c:75:gsmd_vendor_plugin_load() loading vendor plugin "ti" Jan 15 13:51:44 Wed Feb 9 16:31:38 2000 <1> machine.c:56:gsmd_machine_plugin_find() selecting machine plugin "TI Calypso / FIC firmware" Jan 15 13:51:45 Wed Feb 9 16:31:38 2000 <1> atcmd.c:691:atcmd_drain() c_iflag = 0x00000000, c_oflag = 0x00000000, c_cflag = 0x800018b2, c_lflag = 0x00000a00 Jan 15 13:51:48 can't open unix socket Jan 15 13:51:54 crossdev -v --binutils 2.18-r3 --gcc 4.3.1-r1 --kernel 2.6.24 --libc 2.7-r2 --target armv4tl-softfloat-linux-gnueabi Jan 15 13:51:55 sleipnir: i doing this right now :> Jan 15 13:52:18 substitute the versions with what you want Jan 15 13:52:37 Bish: and btw: you _have_ to use gcc-4.3.2-r2 Jan 15 13:52:46 why? Jan 15 13:52:52 other versions generate armv5 code for eabi Jan 15 13:53:03 !google eabi! Jan 15 13:53:05 Images @ http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&q=eabi!&safe=off&lr=lang_all&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wi%20onclick=gbar.qs(this)%20class=gb1 | ArmEabiPort - Debian Wiki @ http://wiki.debian.org/ArmEabiPort%20class=l | Why ARM's EABI matters @ http://www.linuxdevices.com/articles/AT5920399313.html%20class=l Jan 15 13:53:18 haha . we got a google bot in here Jan 15 13:53:43 sleipnir: what does eabi stands for? Jan 15 13:55:48 Bish: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embedded_Application_Binary_Interface Jan 15 13:55:53 i already googled it Jan 15 13:56:54 anybody can help me :( Jan 15 13:57:31 sleipnir: armv5 code for eabi? What other versions? I have 4.1.2 and it generates the code i ask it (including armv4). Jan 15 13:57:34 RJ812: kernel has unix socket support? Jan 15 13:57:51 RJ812: you're using a crappy distro. Why do you think there's a lot of people who understand it? Jan 15 13:58:16 PaulFertser_: Do you use Gentoo? The openmoko versions have the patch already (many other distros also) Jan 15 13:58:33 sleipnir: i compiled gcc from source. Jan 15 13:58:34 gentoo only has it for this specific version Jan 15 13:59:22 where does dropbear log to in SHR testing? Jan 15 13:59:37 Mine stopped accepting my pubkey and I want to trace the problem down Jan 15 13:59:55 sleipnir: are you exactly sure you're talking about gcc code generation and not about the architecture for which libgcc is built? Jan 15 14:00:02 Linux version 2.6.24 (build@barbie) (gcc version 4.1.2) #1 PREEMPT Wed Dec 17 02:13:29 CST 2008 Jan 15 14:00:10 PaulFertser_: you can check by looking up TARGET_CPU_arm10tdmi in the gcc/config/arm/linux-eabi.h file Jan 15 14:00:21 PaulFertser_: I Jan 15 14:01:01 PaulFertser_: I'm sure. If the line above is there, gcc will sometimes generate armv5 instructions for EABI Jan 15 14:01:22 if there is a TARGET_CPU_arm9tdmi it generates armv4 Jan 15 14:02:56 :( Jan 15 14:05:17 sleipnir: i have arm10tdmi there, doesn't look right, i agree. And yet the kernel compiled with it (as well as Qi) is armv4-compatible. Jan 15 14:06:08 PaulFertser_: I saw it first on glibc, but forgot for what instruction I greped Jan 15 14:06:17 sleipnir: /* If the user did not specify a processor, choose one for them. */ Jan 15 14:06:49 sleipnir: and if he did, then use what he specified. See gcc/config/arm/arm.c Jan 15 14:07:51 I've choosen one and did get the code. Strange... Jan 15 14:08:06 maybe it's overwritten later? Jan 15 14:09:49 anybody can help me for GSM issue? Jan 15 14:10:08 sleipnir: i even successfully built the kernel for armv4 with gcc targeted at armv5. Kernel doesn't require libgcc. Then i tried to do the same with Qi and was surprised that it didn't work. After comparing disasm listing of working and non-working Qi i saw some armv5 instructions and they were from libgcc. Therefore i rebuild the toolchain for armv4. But the only reason was libgcc. Jan 15 14:10:29 RJ812: Have you ever successfully registered with FR and your SIM. Is your SIM 3G-capable? Jan 15 14:11:50 it good on Om 2007 but when upgrade on Om 2008.12, SIM not work, no GSM signal Jan 15 14:12:33 RJ812: exactly that same SIM worked? And have you ensured good electrical contact? Jan 15 14:13:50 PaulFertser_: ok so maybe the armv5 instructions are from libgcc. However substituting the TARGET_CPU part fixed the problem. Jan 15 14:14:21 RJ812: exactly that same SIM worked? And have you ensured good electrical contact? <- what mean? Jan 15 14:14:40 sleipnir: not correct solution, it seems. I didn't and compiled the toolchain and got compatible libgcc. Jan 15 14:14:43 pcfe: dont know exactly, because mine sits at home, but i would suggest syslog Jan 15 14:14:47 and syslog is in memory Jan 15 14:15:36 RJ812: good electrical contact? That means the resistance between sim contacts and sim-holder contacts is ~0 Ohm. Jan 15 14:16:11 as far as i know... Jan 15 14:16:21 there was some command to retrieve the latest contents Jan 15 14:17:58 sleipnir: to get compatible libgcc one needs to use --with-cpu=arm9 while compiling gcc. Jan 15 14:18:01 PaulFertser_: so what is your fix? Jan 15 14:18:22 sleipnir: i think compiling gcc with --with-cpu=arm9 is enough. Jan 15 14:18:28 IIRC Jan 15 14:19:04 PaulFertser_: I'm not at my host right now, but i think i have --march=arm920t or something similar Jan 15 14:19:22 I thought it will also set the CPU Jan 15 14:20:28 sleipnir: are you sure that it was supplied as a parameter while gcc compiled libgcc? I used gcc's ./configure with --with-cpu=arm9. Jan 15 14:21:11 to be honest i don't know what gentoo's crossdev does, but maybe it's worth looking at it Jan 15 14:23:21 PaulFertser_: thx for the hint, will check what crossdev does this evening Jan 15 14:23:31 sleipnir: if you didn't specify any armv4-specific parameter to crossdev, it obviously compiled gcc for armv5. I guess cross doesn't support ``multilib'' at least for ARM. I think you (gentoo folks) should investigate it, you're good at compiling ;) Jan 15 14:24:13 PaulFertser_, i checked that it good electrical contact Jan 15 14:24:30 PaulFertser_: I specified --target armv4tl-softfloat-linux-gnueabi to crossdev, but i dunno what it does with it Jan 15 14:24:39 RJ812: and it is the SIM that worked before, not another one? Jan 15 14:25:01 sleipnir: i see. Good luck then! :) Jan 15 14:25:12 ys Jan 15 14:25:18 PaulFertser_: thx again for the heads-up Jan 15 14:25:32 it worked on Om 2007, but upgrade to 2008.12, it not work Jan 15 14:26:14 RJ812: is your rootfs writable? (check with mount) Jan 15 14:26:33 RJ812: read http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/GSM_network_registration Jan 15 14:26:38 freesmartphone.org: 03mickey 07framework * rd56a275536f7 10/framework/subsystems/oeventsd/ (action.py filter.py rule.py trigger.py): Jan 15 14:26:38 freesmartphone.org: oeventsd: substitute super calls with the classic method of calling parent constructors Jan 15 14:26:38 freesmartphone.org: super is considered harmful, at least in the present implementation. DO NOT USE IT, especially Jan 15 14:26:40 freesmartphone.org: not not with multiple inheritance. Trust me, it's broken! Jan 15 14:26:42 freesmartphone.org: 03mickey 07framework * r52e5614de3ce 10/framework/subsystems/oeventsd/ (action.py filter.py fso_actions.py rule.py trigger.py): oeventsd: add QueuedDBusAction and use it for all dbus methods triggered by actions Jan 15 14:26:46 freesmartphone.org: 03mickey 07framework * rd871c761aca6 10/framework/patterns/tasklet.py: tasklet: what do we do if the generator vanishes? Jan 15 14:26:47 Om2008.12-om-gta02.rootfs Jan 15 14:27:07 RJ812: is your rootfs writable? (check with mount) <-- ys Jan 15 14:28:09 hmm then no idea Jan 15 14:29:20 freesmartphone.org: 03mickey 07framework * ra1216dcb9db4 10/ (3 files in 2 dirs): Jan 15 14:29:20 freesmartphone.org: oeventsd: Serialize dbus requests with a Queue. This (and removing a race in the RingToneAction) Jan 15 14:29:20 freesmartphone.org: should fix the problems with neverending vibration and audio ringtone on short calls (FSO ticket #205) Jan 15 14:31:19 beni: good hint, you made me remember logread Jan 15 14:31:24 found the problem Jan 15 14:32:49 now to find out why /home/root belonged to 1000.1000 instead of root.root Jan 15 14:46:48 Xora! Jan 15 14:48:10 yeah, i fixed, GSM work done :D Jan 15 14:48:33 RJ812: please report what have you done and what was the problem :) Jan 15 14:52:23 RJ813: please report what you have done and what was the problem :) Jan 15 14:54:02 conflict between gsmd and qtopia-phone-x11, i removed gsmd and it work :D Jan 15 14:54:11 http://docs.openmoko.org/trac/ticket/1827 Jan 15 14:54:12 :( Jan 15 14:55:56 RJ813: you see, crappy distribution. I told ya :p Jan 15 14:58:44 ys, PaulFertser_ :( Jan 15 15:35:46 seems that i have no sound with the shr kernel on shr-russian Jan 15 15:36:17 but i install the 2008.12 kernel an sound works---odd Jan 15 15:49:31 mmh, what xserver do I need ot install in order to get the gui and elightenment etc. Jan 15 15:49:38 I am on fso-testing Jan 15 15:49:50 and it only installed the console stuff Jan 15 15:50:38 spaetz: illume and zhone at least... Jan 15 15:51:05 perhaps they pull most of the other stuff that makes sense but they should at least pull the stuff needed to run x i guess Jan 15 15:51:25 ok. I tried Om2008.12 but that didn't even allow me to configure my WLAN or get easy access to a terminal... Jan 15 15:52:43 bipak! Jan 15 15:53:42 hu? Jan 15 15:53:44 :> Jan 15 15:54:42 hei Jan 15 15:55:55 heyho :) Jan 15 15:56:21 How do I get the mac-adress for eth0 on the SHR? Jan 15 15:56:31 ifconfig eth0 Jan 15 15:56:31 is it the same as the USB0 mac-adress? Jan 15 15:56:35 ifconfig Jan 15 15:57:05 Ah now it told me, it didn't show eth0 with just ifconfig Jan 15 15:57:09 or mount /dev/mtd5 Jan 15 15:57:15 thx Jan 15 15:57:26 spaetz: ifconfig only shows UP interfaces by default Jan 15 16:09:30 is there anyone from FSO here? fso-testing has conflicting dependencies: Jan 15 16:09:56 enlightenment requires libssl0.9.7 but fso-testing provides only 0-9.8 Jan 15 16:10:20 maybe in the openmoko-cdevel chan Jan 15 16:10:29 spaetz: there are. not me, but there are. Jan 15 16:10:38 bipak: will try. thanks Jan 15 16:11:55 spaetz: you're german, right? Jan 15 16:12:00 yep Jan 15 16:12:32 spaetz: mickey_away is michael lauer, leader of the fso team afaik. he is also in #neo1973-germany. Jan 15 16:12:59 spaetz: don't be irritated by the name, it's just the german openmoko community, so to say... Jan 15 16:13:06 good tip. thanks, will try Jan 15 16:13:10 oh there is? Jan 15 16:13:13 nice Jan 15 16:13:14 :) Jan 15 16:13:22 hehe another german... Jan 15 16:13:29 the whole chan :p Jan 15 16:14:04 bipak: i think i've seen your nick before. have you been in #debian.de or #linuxpaten? Jan 15 16:14:17 hm nope Jan 15 16:14:25 irssi or fluxbox Jan 15 16:15:10 hm i have been to #irssi sometimes, perhaps i've seen it there... Jan 15 16:15:31 or maybe it was this chan? ;) Jan 15 16:15:53 haven't been in #irssi a long time Jan 15 16:16:39 neither have i ;) just sometimes when i have a problem and it might well have been >5 years ago... Jan 15 16:17:05 hehe. so then it was irssi *g* Jan 15 16:17:22 ok :) Jan 15 16:18:05 the german chan is very silent ;) Jan 15 16:18:26 hm ok 365 vs. 45 nicks Jan 15 16:43:46 2008.12 kernel works pretty good on http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/User:Bytestore Jan 15 16:44:12 .28 worked although i had no sound Jan 15 16:44:39 dialer worked an connected but no sound Jan 15 17:17:25 freesmartphone.org: 03mickey 07framework * r2e9f4aea09be 10/framework/resource.py: resource: status at default is "unknown" Jan 15 17:17:27 freesmartphone.org: 03mickey 07framework * r5646c67fd1c4 10/ (3 files in 3 dirs): Jan 15 17:17:27 freesmartphone.org: ousaged: Add config option 'sync_resources_with_lifecycle' for specifying whether all Jan 15 17:17:27 freesmartphone.org: Resources should be disabled on "startup", "shutdown", "always" (default), or "never". Jan 15 17:24:05 anybody can help this ticket http://docs.openmoko.org/trac/ticket/1767 ? Jan 15 17:25:13 RJ812: do you know OM about future of the software stack? Jan 15 17:26:28 no :( Jan 15 17:26:41 i have error like this ticket :s Jan 15 17:27:02 RJ812: the plan is: move to FSO and use paroli as a dialer. Drop OM2008.x Jan 15 17:27:36 RJ812: search the archive of community mailing list, it was discussed there. Jan 15 17:27:57 I mean E crash and possible solutions were discussed there, you'll find it. Jan 15 17:31:07 freesmartphone.org: 03mickey 07framework * r95bdf8518f1f 10/framework/ (resource.py subsystems/ousaged/resources.py): resource: on shutdown leave resources alone, if requested Jan 15 17:52:25 freesmartphone.org: 03mickey 07framework * r08fad37bcffe 10/framework/subsystems/ogsmd/gsm/const.py: ogsmd: const: add GSM number types seen "in the field" Jan 15 18:15:22 ok I now understand how to build my own code with oe Jan 15 18:15:44 bitbake is clear only if understood Jan 15 18:16:54 now why did pidgin just die on me?!? Jan 15 18:17:12 I told it to Jan 15 18:18:19 thanks Jan 15 18:30:01 how can i disable pin-check from the commandline? Jan 15 19:38:55 Is there some way to stop the openmoko wiki from logging me out every 10 minutes? Jan 15 19:39:35 I'll try the Remember Me preference I guess.. Jan 15 20:31:32 hallo all Jan 15 20:32:05 'nings Jan 15 20:35:58 do you know if a script in c is generally heavier in terms of powerconsumption rather then bash or python? Jan 15 20:38:28 no idea here, I would have thought that a small C program would use less computing power than a python script if it was smaller than the python runtime. Unless the freerunner processor does power stepping and one program or the other caused a step up to use more power then there will be no difference Jan 15 20:50:44 * TigZ mutters about power issues Jan 15 20:51:54 pippo_: script in C? Jan 15 20:53:13 lindi-, I was assuming coding and a translation difference Jan 15 20:55:06 i would like to add a launcher of my application on the home screen in FDOM. anyone knows where i can put my script? Jan 15 20:56:31 ah, /usr/share/application ?! Jan 15 21:26:54 Howdy folks! Jan 15 21:27:00 My brother gave me an OpenMoko for Christmas. :-) Jan 15 21:27:08 Here's my blog which mentions it: Jan 15 21:27:14 zooko: I would kill him for that Jan 15 21:27:25 http://testgrid.allmydata.org:3567/uri/URI:DIR2-RO:j74uhg25nwdpjpacl6rkat2yhm:kav7ijeft5h7r7rxdp5bgtlt3viv32yabqajkrdykozia5544jqa/wiki.html Jan 15 21:27:55 erm Jan 15 21:28:28 longest url award Jan 15 21:28:32 is it just me or is that URL a little odd Jan 15 21:28:55 LOL Jan 15 21:29:20 smells a bit spammy Jan 15 21:29:31 zooko: yeah, what's up with that? :) Jan 15 21:30:56 The URL contains a secure hash and an encryption key. Jan 15 21:31:09 for what? Jan 15 21:31:54 sorry I seem to be missing the point here, are you putting MD5 hashes in your web address? Jan 15 21:33:00 Okay, I've added to the issue ticket saying that those URLs are too long and fugly. Jan 15 21:33:01 http://allmydata.org/trac/tahoe/ticket/217#comment:32 Jan 15 21:33:06 Quoting you all. Thanks. Jan 15 21:33:36 It actually contains the secure hash of a public key, so that people can check the digital signature on each file that's in that directory. Jan 15 21:35:33 zooko, how am I (general internet person) supposed to use that URL Jan 15 21:35:55 * SpeedEvil notes md5 has problems. Jan 15 21:36:50 * TigZ notes that he also has read of the md5 problems but was trying to work out how this is supposed to work Jan 15 21:36:53 Defiant-: longest url? you have much to see Jan 15 21:37:13 iirc isn't the spec limited to 255 chars? Jan 15 21:37:25 or is that something else Jan 15 21:37:32 zash__: longest today Jan 15 21:37:36 there is a limit anyway Jan 15 21:38:10 TigZ: wat? Jan 15 21:38:24 TigZ: limit on md5-length? Jan 15 21:38:36 zash__, nope URL spec Jan 15 21:38:57 TigZ: sounds little Jan 15 21:39:01 sorry was not being clear on what I was talking about Jan 15 21:39:24 ah 2083 in IE Jan 15 21:39:27 chars Jan 15 21:40:02 It isn't using md5, it is using a more secure hash function. Jan 15 21:40:16 TigZ: how to use *that* one? Just cut and paste it into your web browser. Jan 15 21:40:28 Oh, I guess you're asking how to check the correctness of the digital signature, right? Jan 15 21:40:39 zooko but how am I supposed to use that hash, does it require me to use a special browser/plug in? Jan 15 21:41:27 So, if you just put that into your web browser, then your browser contacts testgrid.allmydata.com:3567, and the server running there accepts the URL, downloads the file, checks the crypto bits against the file, and then either gives you an error Jan 15 21:41:32 or, if the crypto bits are valid, returns the file to you. Jan 15 21:41:46 So in that case, you are relying on testgrid.allmydata.org:3567 to check the sig for you. Jan 15 21:42:16 but how do I trust testgrid.allmydata.org? Jan 15 21:42:19 You could also install that open source software yourself locally, change "http://testgrid.allmydata.org:3567" to "http://127.0.0.1:3567", and then your own local server would do the checking. Jan 15 21:42:33 but checking how? Jan 15 21:42:35 But, how can you trust that open source software? Jan 15 21:42:50 Better to read this paper and implement it yourself! http://allmydata.org/~zooko/lafs.pdf Jan 15 21:42:51 ;-) Jan 15 21:43:20 The crypto structure is a bit complicated. See the diagram on page Jan 15 21:43:41 See "Figure 2". Jan 15 21:43:47 That shows how the public key is encoded. Jan 15 21:44:08 zooko, if I am asking a server to prove that it has sent the page I am requesting then why can't I just use HTTPS Jan 15 21:44:17 I am, in fact, planning to see if I can get this software running on my FreeRunner. :-) Jan 15 21:44:41 TigZ: that's a good question. Jan 15 21:44:56 zooko, I may seem to playing the devils advocate but I am trying to work out why I should use it Jan 15 21:45:35 * zooko nods. Jan 15 21:45:38 It is a good question. Jan 15 21:45:51 I'm trying to work out how to answer it precisely. Jan 15 21:46:12 There are two steps in this process. First, someone tells someone else a URL, such as I told you over IRC a few minutes ago. Jan 15 21:46:29 Or, of course, that step can happen in other ways -- you can find URLs on web pags, people can give you business cards with URLs on them etc. Jan 15 21:46:32 so like https://mail.google.com Jan 15 21:46:47 Then, you and your software take that URL and talk to a server and get the page. Jan 15 21:47:12 so I put in https://mail.google.com and get a page Jan 15 21:47:22 using my browser Jan 15 21:47:31 If you and your software have a URL like https://mail.google.com which doesn't have any crypto bits in it, Jan 15 21:48:03 no I admit it is terrifyingly user friendly in that regard Jan 15 21:48:29 then you are relying on connecting the right server -- you rely on verisign for that -- and then you get whatever data the server serves -- you rely on google for that. Jan 15 21:48:50 so Jan 15 21:49:19 If instead you had gotten a URL which had crypto bits in it, then Jan 15 21:49:39 you wouldn't rely on the server that you connect to for the question of which pages are correct. Jan 15 21:49:48 Instead you would rely on the holder of the private key for that. Jan 15 21:49:49 I am trusting a certificate that the server I have asked to connect to that I may have connected to in the past, then I can verify that server by talking to a trusted third party Jan 15 21:49:52 you rely on the URL being correct Jan 15 21:50:12 which just moves the trust up to the URL delivery method Jan 15 21:50:28 So, concretely, with that long ugly URL that I posted earlier, there is a decentralized grid of storage servers, and you can use any noe of them or combination of them to fetch the file, but you don't rely on them to be honest about the file contents. Jan 15 21:50:44 hey all Jan 15 21:51:20 zooko, I can't see how this differs from setting up an SSL signing authority that is not necessarily in most browsers that relys on a web of trust and there is already one of those Jan 15 21:51:28 anyone know of a ringtone editor that supports these .yaml (?) files? Jan 15 21:51:54 * zooko thinks. Jan 15 21:52:00 zooko, but the URL could easily be tampered by inline web proxies or all sorts of things Jan 15 21:52:39 TigZ: support that you are running the tahoe-lafs software locally, and using a 127.0.0.1 address to reach it. Jan 15 21:52:47 And then suppose you put in a tahoe URL. Jan 15 21:53:06 What that server guarantees is that the resulting page is a page that was intended by the original creator of that URL. Jan 15 21:53:41 I don't think that adding an SSL CA accomplishes the same effect, but I might not be understanding what you meant by that. Jan 15 21:53:42 zooko, how do you reconcile this with the user Jan 15 21:54:00 zooko, how do you reconcile this with the users ability to modify their own viewing environment Jan 15 21:54:11 so I have an ad block plug in Jan 15 21:54:20 or some other extention Jan 15 21:54:26 Ok, in your web browser. Jan 15 21:54:34 you sign your page with ads in it Jan 15 21:54:46 * zooko nods. Jan 15 21:55:01 my browser takes out the ads and now the checks don't work Jan 15 21:55:21 The digital signature check is performed by the tahoe-lafs server before it gives the file to your browser. Jan 15 21:55:52 So for example, you can look at my blog, and if you block images from it, your browser will then filter out the images, but the whole file will still pass the digital signature check. Jan 15 21:55:57 so after the server has sent is other programs can edit and manipulate the content Jan 15 21:56:43 Yes, your web browser gets to do things like that. Also render it, such as reading off alt tags if you are blind, etc. Jan 15 21:56:57 * zooko wonders how the OpenMoko views his blog. Jan 15 21:57:03 I haven't gotten my Freerunner running yet. Jan 15 21:57:40 so assuming I am an evil network person, I could put a tahoe-server on the edge of the network, decrypt all the traffic coming in and swap all the pictures for photos of kittens Jan 15 21:58:39 I just updated my blog, by the way... Jan 15 21:58:43 zooko, I might be able to help with the Freerunner bit :) Jan 15 21:58:57 zooko, go on give me a sensible url :) Jan 15 21:59:25 TigZ: yes, so if you load my blog by going through a remote web server such as testgrid.allmydata.org:3567 , then you are relying on that web server to check the digital signature and tell you honestly whether the file passed or not. Jan 15 21:59:44 If you want to be less vulnerable to that remote server, then you could run the tahoe-lafs software yourself, locally. Jan 15 22:00:07 but if I don't trust "testgrid.allmydata.org" then it is a bit pointless Jan 15 22:00:22 Yes, that's what I mean by saying that you are relying on them. Jan 15 22:00:50 And if you don't want to rely on them, then you'll have to do the RSA or ECDSA computations yourself on a computer that you are willing to rely on. Jan 15 22:01:27 arrgh :) but then I still need data from a source I don't trust! Jan 15 22:01:59 What data from which source? Jan 15 22:02:33 is testgrid.allmydata.org where your blog is located Jan 15 22:03:02 I don't understand what you meant about still needing data from a source that you don't trust. Jan 15 22:03:10 is testgrid.allmydata.org where your blog is located Jan 15 22:03:11 My blog is actually stored on a decentralized storage grid. Jan 15 22:03:21 More specifically, it is spread out across about ten servers. Jan 15 22:03:40 Hold on, I'll start a web server on a different host... Jan 15 22:03:48 is your blog located on testgrid.allmydata.org Jan 15 22:04:47 because unless I am talking directly to your blog files then testgrid... is a man in the middle of this encryption Jan 15 22:05:07 Okay, now if you change "testgrid.allmydata.org:3567" to "nooxie.zooko.com:8123" then you'll get the same page. Jan 15 22:05:18 errm Jan 15 22:05:22 Those are two web servers which are each reading the file from the decentralized storage grid whenever you request the file. Jan 15 22:05:30 so you put an a record in Jan 15 22:06:03 zooko, I think I must not be explaing myself well :) Jan 15 22:06:07 I didn't understand what you meant about the man in the middle, and I still didn't understand what you meant about needing data from a source that you don't trust. Jan 15 22:06:16 But I think you are thinking well about these issues. Jan 15 22:06:22 I.e., thinking with suspicion. ;-) Jan 15 22:06:29 So I would be interested in discussing it with you more. Jan 15 22:08:10 I now understand how to parse your sentence: testgrid.allmydata.org is a man in the middle of this encryption. Jan 15 22:08:18 right if I want to trust the data I am getting from a server I need to have a connection between my computer and the computer I am talking to, no other computer in the middle even if it is relaying traffic for me to get to the other computer should be able to understand the communication and if anyone tries and suceeds to break into the conversation the whole thing should shut down immediately Jan 15 22:08:39 zooko, yes :)# Jan 15 22:09:25 now tell me how this system is better than SSL for example Jan 15 22:09:34 So, in principle, that's what public key cryptography is good for -- to let you use a computer as a relay without being vulnerable to its ability to snoop on or alter your data. Jan 15 22:10:06 I'm not sure that I would say that this is better than SSL in *general*. Jan 15 22:10:24 But it has the nice property that Jan 15 22:11:02 You can be sure you are downloading a file that was intended by the holder of a certain private key, Jan 15 22:11:08 zooko, what I am really asking is what are the goals of the project Jan 15 22:11:16 *without* relying on any given server, and *without* relying on VeriSign. Jan 15 22:11:19 zooko, that can be done via GPG Jan 15 22:11:33 people can sign files with GPG signatures Jan 15 22:11:36 Yes, GPG and tahoe-lafs both use public key cryptography to accomplish that. Jan 15 22:12:16 So, the additional goal of tahoe-lafs in addition to the above goal is that it is easy enough to use that people use it a lot. ;-) Jan 15 22:12:36 but we established that having hashes in the URL is not user friendlyg Jan 15 22:13:20 Hi Dave, Have you seen zooko's blog it is at: http://testgrid.allmydata.org:3567/uri/URI:DIR2-RO:j74uhg25nwdpjpacl6rkat2yhm:kav7ijeft5h7r7rxdp5bgtlt3viv32yabqajkrdykozia5544jqa/wiki.html Jan 15 22:13:21 There are some problems withit. Jan 15 22:13:32 It line-wraps on my screen, for one thing. Jan 15 22:13:35 Yes Tig I will remember that when I get home Jan 15 22:13:37 And it is intimidating and ugly, for another. Jan 15 22:13:52 zooko, but what is it FOR! Jan 15 22:13:55 On the other hand, people can cut and paste it, like you just did, and you can put it in bookmarks, and embed it in webpages, and so on. Jan 15 22:14:17 What it is for is for identifying a specific directory or file on tahoe (in this case the directory contains "wiki.html" which is my blog) Jan 15 22:14:19 but https does all this for you Jan 15 22:14:48 in such a way that someone can be sure the directory is the one that I intended without being vulnerable to any server lying to them, and without relying on VeriSign. Jan 15 22:15:17 well you can import and delete CAs from your browser Jan 15 22:15:30 So, in the contrasting example of https://mail.google.com, you rely on VeriSign to let you know that your browser has connected to a legitimate server, and then you rely on that server to give you the right data. Jan 15 22:15:40 so you can ditch verisign and sign your own CA and import that Jan 15 22:16:12 * zooko nods. Jan 15 22:16:16 nope CAs can be changed by the user Jan 15 22:16:32 CAs can be created by anyone Jan 15 22:16:38 So, let's say I use a normal https link for my blog instead. Jan 15 22:16:50 I could have started this conversation by saying: I blogged: https://zooko.com/klog Jan 15 22:17:03 This would be a shorter and more meaningful and less ugly URL. Jan 15 22:17:46 In order to use it, you would need to either be vulnerable to VeriSign to tell you that the computer you connect to is a legit server for that domain name (if I used VeriSign, which that server doesn't). Jan 15 22:18:11 then if you don't have a cert signed by any of the CAs in that person's browser, IE6 may pop up a warning, IE7/FF will ask to create an exemption Jan 15 22:18:16 Or you would have to enter your own trust root into your browser, and then configure that trust root to approve of a certain public key as being a legit key for that domain name. Jan 15 22:18:17 Right? Jan 15 22:19:08 Also, of course, if that server went down, there would be various bits of trouble making my blog available in its absence - I would need to have alternate servers and register their public keys with your CA< or something. Jan 15 22:19:29 hmmmmmm Jan 15 22:19:46 So the option of ignoring the warning is a third option -- download the file without being sure that it was the file intended by the original uploader. Jan 15 22:20:25 zooko, unless you md5ed the file Jan 15 22:20:46 zooko, also different servers can share ssl keys Jan 15 22:21:15 * TigZ goes to get beer Jan 15 22:21:19 So, suppose I md5'ed the file. Actually let's suppose I used a stronger hash function. Jan 15 22:21:52 zooko, stop Jan 15 22:22:07 before you start tell me what you are trying to achieve Jan 15 22:22:36 you seem to be concerned with security, what exactly are you trying to protect against Jan 15 22:27:08 The goal is to allow person A to create a directory, and then give a link to that directory to person B, and then let person B be sure that the contents of the directory are what were intended by the person who gave B the link, without being vulnerable to any server changing the contents of the directory. Jan 15 22:28:26 And also to be convenient and fun to use. Jan 15 22:29:52 well still trying to workout how this can't be done with ssl and any number or source control systems Jan 15 22:29:56 TIG Jan 15 22:30:02 DAVE! Jan 15 22:30:05 Hallo :D Jan 15 22:30:25 I thought I was going nuts here and then you turned up! Jan 15 22:30:47 if ever there was validation.... Jan 15 22:43:29 #ubuntu-tr #ubuntu-tr #ubuntu-tr #ubuntu-tr #ubuntu-tr #ubuntu-tr #ubuntu-tr #ubuntu-tr #ubuntu-tr#ubuntu-tr #ubuntu-tr #ubuntu-tr #ubuntu-tr #ubuntu-tr #ubuntu-tr #ubuntu-tr #ubuntu-tr #ubuntu-tr#ubuntu-tr #ubuntu-tr #ubuntu-tr #ubuntu-tr #ubuntu-tr #ubuntu-tr #ubuntu-tr #ubuntu-tr #ubuntu-tr Jan 15 22:50:08 has anyone seen this problem before? http://pastebin.com/m31cdc050 Jan 15 22:50:36 I've seen problems a lot like it. ;-) Jan 15 22:50:55 Err, waitaminute. Jan 15 22:51:00 What is "text" ? Jan 15 22:51:22 Honestly, I suggest a hack that most people disapprove of. Jan 15 22:51:36 Assuming that your OS likes to utf-8 everything, just use the setdefaultencoding hack. Jan 15 22:51:41 And tell me if that doesn't fix it. Jan 15 22:51:47 http://blog.ianbicking.org/illusive-setdefaultencoding.html Jan 15 22:54:00 zooko: yeah, everything is utf-8, but that things doesnt want to work. Let me read it Jan 15 22:55:28 http://allmydata.org/trac/tahoe/browser/windows/tahoesvc.py Jan 15 22:55:34 ^-- example of that hack Jan 15 22:55:38 1import sys Jan 15 22:55:38 2reload(sys) Jan 15 22:55:39 3sys.setdefaultencoding("utf-8") Jan 15 23:00:35 zooko: wooo that solved it! Jan 15 23:01:06 zooko: thank you very much Jan 15 23:08:07 :-) Jan 15 23:08:48 I am using debian-fso. GSM stopped working apt-updating the software yesterday.... is there somebody out there having the same problem? Jan 15 23:11:58 zhone says for a while: Usage: requesting reource list.... OPenmoko panel plugin do not start anything... gsm0710muxd does not start... have you heard something similar? Jan 15 23:14:50 if the gsm modem is turned off it does not get switch on with zhone... Jan 15 23:17:53 reenzo: #openmoko-debian might have people who can help, i need to sleep now Jan 15 23:18:06 tnx Jan 15 23:29:51 * rooly is gong to play a simple little game Jan 15 23:30:05 the game is: who uses an old IRC client!? Jan 15 23:30:28 see, all i need to find out is to type DCC SEND morethanfourteencontiguouscharacters Jan 15 23:30:32 yup Jan 15 23:30:36 one person Jan 15 23:31:13 get a new client, nikolajsheller1 Jan 15 23:31:14 that will get you klined btw Jan 15 23:31:23 get a new client, nikolajsheller1 Jan 15 23:31:30 so i've heard Jan 15 23:32:14 but still SpeedEvil, they do need to get newer clients Jan 15 23:32:27 cause thats a pretty bad vulnerability Jan 16 00:26:40 guys Jan 16 00:26:55 why won't my FR propperly report its wifi or bluetooth Jan 16 01:07:11 How do I flash my freerunner if I have changed to Qi? Jan 16 01:07:40 use the nand uboot Jan 16 01:08:05 or whatever the 'oh-shit' one is Jan 16 01:08:39 I changed to qi to be more compatible with Android is that a bad idea? Jan 16 01:08:56 i don't think it would be Jan 16 01:09:32 so to get to nand uboot I turn on the power then hold aux for 5 seconds? Jan 16 01:09:40 no Jan 16 01:09:51 ah, what do I do then? Jan 16 01:09:57 turn it off, then hold aux first and then power Jan 16 01:10:06 right, thank you :) Jan 16 01:10:08 that should be your 'oh-shit' uboot Jan 16 01:10:11 i think its nand Jan 16 01:10:18 nor Jan 16 01:10:23 why 'oh-shit'? Jan 16 01:10:24 yeah Jan 16 01:10:34 cause it can't change unless you've got a debug board Jan 16 01:10:44 nor = 'oh-shit' Jan 16 01:10:54 yeah Jan 16 01:11:05 so can I change back to uboot? Jan 16 01:11:06 i always get confused between which is which...just like my left and right hands Jan 16 01:11:19 yeah Jan 16 01:11:26 right, that's ok then! Jan 16 01:22:42 woooooO!!!!! Jan 16 01:26:52 what?! Jan 16 01:27:14 gots mah keyboard working Jan 16 01:27:26 bluetooth one? Jan 16 01:27:48 or are you coding? Jan 16 01:28:01 a bluetooth one Jan 16 01:28:47 nice, I have a small cause for celebration too... I just got android running for the first time Jan 16 01:28:53 gj Jan 16 01:29:02 i heard android now has working wifi and bluetooth Jan 16 01:29:56 yeah, I just tried scanning for networks but it failed... i read somewhere about changing a config file... Jan 16 01:31:15 it does look sweet though :) Jan 16 01:32:30 i didn't like it too much Jan 16 01:32:38 since...well...its sorta SLOW Jan 16 01:33:41 I run qte on my freerunner (android is on my bros) and this images doesn't seem too bad incomparison Jan 16 01:34:04 how's the sms cloning Jan 16 01:34:08 has it been fixed yet? Jan 16 01:34:29 what's sms cloning? can I send sms? Jan 16 01:34:36 sure Jan 16 01:34:56 but when you recieve one, it clones Jan 16 01:35:36 oh you mean on qte... wow yeah what a pain, I get many many repete sms Jan 16 01:35:57 i couldn't stand it Jan 16 01:36:02 what about your bluetooth Jan 16 01:36:55 bluetooth on qte works well - recieved vcards pictures no prolem... havn't tried sending Jan 16 01:37:05 then you won't Jan 16 01:37:20 4.4.2 has shown bluetooth problems before tho Jan 16 01:37:26 sometimes, it doesn't even register as existing Jan 16 01:38:20 I would be really interested to use shr but need it to function a little better as a phone first Jan 16 01:38:35 qte seems the best i got so far Jan 16 01:39:05 qtopia 4.3.2 was my favorite Jan 16 01:39:26 more stable than 4.4.2? Jan 16 01:39:43 definitely Jan 16 01:40:08 what do you use now? Jan 16 01:40:16 well Jan 16 01:40:20 i got a new phone Jan 16 01:40:22 so i'm using that one as my phone Jan 16 01:40:31 and asu (om2008.12) as a toy Jan 16 01:40:42 ic Jan 16 02:06:22 Anybody use a Freerunner with a bluetooth keyboard? Jan 16 02:08:10 Ah, I see that Rooly just did so... Jan 16 02:10:28 Revision 0360. Jan 16 02:10:45 The wiki says "Revision: 0350 Jan 16 02:10:57 " and then says "the "05" indicates the hardware revision, in this case revision 05" Jan 16 02:10:58 :-) Jan 16 02:11:06 Maybe it means revision 50? Jan 16 02:13:55 i do Jan 16 02:14:16 huh? Jan 16 02:14:27 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Finding_hardware_revision Jan 16 02:14:59 possibly a typo Jan 16 02:19:55 How do I pair a bluetooth keyboard with my FreeRunner? Jan 16 02:20:12 hop into a terminal Jan 16 02:20:20 the simple way: turn on bluetooth from settings Jan 16 02:20:52 Okay, got bluetooth powered up. Jan 16 02:20:56 then, in a terminal: hciconfig hci0 up && hidd --search (while your keyboard is in pairing mode) Jan 16 02:22:02 Thanks! Jan 16 02:23:18 Connecting to device 00:0A:95:46:92:A6 Jan 16 02:23:18 Can't get device information: Permission denied Jan 16 02:23:45 then your keyboard wont' work the easy way Jan 16 02:23:52 check the wiki Jan 16 02:23:58 'manually using bluetooth' Jan 16 02:24:34 Thanks! Jan 16 02:46:35 I wish I could drive a TI pico digital project from my Freerunner. **** ENDING LOGGING AT Fri Jan 16 02:59:57 2009