**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Wed Feb 18 02:59:57 2009
Feb 18 03:33:21 <slaxxin> bad link
Feb 18 05:00:26 <arg0> is there an email client for SHR?
Feb 18 07:56:12 <methril> morning
Feb 18 08:21:33 <Hopscotch> good morning
Feb 18 10:09:11 <panicking> Hi all
Feb 18 10:09:12 <panicking> :)
Feb 18 10:09:21 <panicking> thank's for yesterday
Feb 18 10:14:25 <PaulFertser> panicking: Hey, how is your muxer going? :)
Feb 18 10:14:39 <muxe> im fine ;)
Feb 18 10:14:55 <PaulFertser> muxe: good to hear :)
Feb 18 10:15:47 <panicking> I start to change the android part to support different descriptor
Feb 18 10:16:16 <panicking> The muxer part is ready but I use one channel
Feb 18 10:16:19 <panicking> for now
Feb 18 10:39:20 <panicking> PaulFertser: I have some trouble with the muxer, sometimes
Feb 18 10:39:31 <panicking> It can't open the channel(s)
Feb 18 10:39:47 <panicking> so the command does't arrive
Feb 18 10:39:49 <panicking> on send
Feb 18 10:40:05 <panicking> the control channel don't receive the answer
Feb 18 10:42:22 <panicking> GSM0710_TYPE_UA
Feb 18 10:42:33 <panicking> i'm waitng for an UA message
Feb 18 10:43:39 <laen> Hmmm. Has there been a fix to the buzzing sounds when calling someone yet? Kinda forgot where to look for it.
Feb 18 10:44:57 <PaulFertser> panicking: do you wake up the modem before trying this?
Feb 18 10:45:25 <panicking>   property_get(POWER_GSM_PROPERTY, gsm_reset, GSM_RESET);
Feb 18 10:45:25 <panicking>         property_get(POWER_GSM_PROPERTY, gsm_power, GSM_POWER);
Feb 18 10:45:25 <panicking>         /* switch off sequence */
Feb 18 10:45:25 <panicking>         gsm_set(gsm_power, 0);
Feb 18 10:45:25 <panicking>         gsm_set(gsm_reset, 0);
Feb 18 10:45:26 <panicking>         sleep(1);
Feb 18 10:45:29 <panicking>         /* switch on sequence */
Feb 18 10:45:32 <panicking>         gsm_set(gsm_power, 1);
Feb 18 10:45:34 <panicking>         sleep(1);
Feb 18 10:45:36 <panicking>         gsm_set(gsm_reset, 1);
Feb 18 10:45:38 <panicking>         sleep(1);
Feb 18 10:45:40 <panicking>         gsm_set(gsm_reset, 0);
Feb 18 10:45:42 <panicking>         /* reset complete */
Feb 18 10:45:44 <panicking>         sleep(4);
Feb 18 10:45:46 <panicking> I have a similar code of the gsmmuxd
Feb 18 10:45:48 <panicking> I do a reset sequence
Feb 18 10:45:52 <panicking> The only differnce
Feb 18 10:45:56 <panicking> is that I don't send
Feb 18 10:46:08 <PaulFertser> panicking: nope, i'm not talking about powering it on.
Feb 18 10:46:33 <panicking>  ret = at_send(phy->fd, "\r\n\r\n\r\nAT\r\n", 1);
Feb 18 10:46:33 <panicking>         ret |= at_send(phy->fd, "ATZ\r\n", 1);
Feb 18 10:46:33 <panicking>         ret |= at_send(phy->fd, "ATE0\r\n", 1);
Feb 18 10:46:33 <panicking>         ret |= at_send(phy->fd, "AT+CFUN=0\r\n", 1);
Feb 18 10:46:33 <panicking>         asprintf(&cmd, "AT+CMUX=%d,%d,%d,%d\r\n",
Feb 18 10:46:36 <panicking>                  phy->mux_mode, phy->mux_subset,
Feb 18 10:46:37 <panicking>                  get_speed_index(phy->port_speed), phy->max_length);
Feb 18 10:46:39 <panicking> the at sequence
Feb 18 10:46:41 <panicking> ?
Feb 18 10:46:53 <panicking> or it's again wrong
Feb 18 10:46:56 <PaulFertser> panicking: i mean the calypso likes to sleep. If you wait for like 10 seconds not sending anything to it, it silently goes to sleep. And it can lose some first characters you send it while it's asleep.
Feb 18 10:47:09 <panicking> so the special
Feb 18 10:47:10 <panicking> char
Feb 18 10:47:22 <PaulFertser> panicking: btw, i think some will consider that you should use pastebin of some kind instead of "spamming" the channel.
Feb 18 10:47:39 <panicking> sorry
Feb 18 10:49:48 <PaulFertser> panicking: to wake up the modem probabably sending 0x1A and waiting 0.2 seconds is enough.
Feb 18 10:50:11 <PaulFertser> panicking: but you should do it every time when the last communication with the modem was more than 7 or so seconds ago.
Feb 18 10:50:38 <laen> panicking: paste.pocoo.org please
Feb 18 10:51:08 <panicking> I see, I can put question on it?
Feb 18 10:51:30 <laen> panicking: can even use a Vim plugin, commandline python tool or emacs tool to use it.
Feb 18 10:55:18 <PaulFertser> panicking: calypso sucks, you have to workaround it.
Feb 18 10:55:41 <panicking> I dont find the x1A sending in the gsmmuxd code
Feb 18 10:55:54 <PaulFertser> panicking: pastebin is designed to paste some code snippets/logs, etc. You should use it to store the the logs/code and give a link on IRC. 
Feb 18 10:56:03 <panicking> ok
Feb 18 10:56:11 <panicking> thanks
Feb 18 10:56:12 <PaulFertser> panicking: gsmmuxd doesn't send it, because FSO does it itself
Feb 18 10:56:54 <PaulFertser> panicking: but the new muxer will do it itself.
Feb 18 10:57:42 <PaulFertser> panicking: and, btw, a decent pastebin provide syntax highlighting and line numbers as an additional bonus :)
Feb 18 10:59:10 <PaulFertser> panicking: btw, if it's not too hard you can simply retry the channel opening command after 1 sec timeout, that's what worked in gsm0710muxd for a month now without issues.
Feb 18 10:59:50 <panicking> Ok
Feb 18 11:19:28 <gfather> hello guys 
Feb 18 11:19:37 <gfather> any one tried FYP  ?
Feb 18 11:20:16 <rhkfin> Anyone know where to find zenity for 2008.12? automated.it doesn't provide it any more.
Feb 18 11:22:30 <Eirik_> hey guys, I just got my freerunner so I figured I'd join this channel
Feb 18 11:23:10 <SpeedEvil> Come back in a year, when it's ready.
Feb 18 11:23:19 * SpeedEvil is sort-of-kidding.
Feb 18 11:23:20 <Eirik_> yeah seriously
Feb 18 11:23:31 <SpeedEvil> Welcome.
Feb 18 11:23:34 <Eirik_> this thing is hilariously broken but that's half the fun, isn't it
Feb 18 11:23:35 <Eirik_> thanks
Feb 18 11:23:50 <SpeedEvil> you've flashed the newest software?
Feb 18 11:24:08 <SpeedEvil> That should be somewhat differently broken than the shipped image.
Feb 18 11:24:11 <Eirik_> I just managed to ssh to the freerunner via usb in OS X
Feb 18 11:24:41 <Eirik_> I'm thinking of just installing android, but flashing the Qi bootloader is giving me trouble
Feb 18 11:25:27 <Eirik_> there''s no setenv either..
Feb 18 11:25:35 <SpeedEvil> Sorry - no FR - no spare cash for one - so haven't kept up.
Feb 18 11:25:43 <SpeedEvil> (GTA01)
Feb 18 11:26:46 <Eirik_> it's sad and funny how the freerunner is more than twice as expensive as an iphone
Feb 18 11:26:59 <SpeedEvil> Well - it's a very unfair comparison in some ways.
Feb 18 11:27:03 <SpeedEvil> From the practical side.
Feb 18 11:27:29 <SpeedEvil> You go to build 5000 phones, and you have to find the few vendors of phone parts that will sell them to you.
Feb 18 11:28:10 <SpeedEvil> You have to pay maybe - for those parts you can source - maybe nearly twice what apple does for parts bought in 10 millions.
Feb 18 11:32:35 <CM_work> In sweden the iPhone cost more than 10 times as much
Feb 18 11:32:49 <SpeedEvil> There is that too.
Feb 18 11:32:52 <CM_work> If you count the 2 year plan you have to sign up for to get the iPhone
Feb 18 11:33:09 <SpeedEvil> In the UK - IIRC - it's not quite that bad.
Feb 18 11:33:15 <SpeedEvil> It's about 5*
Feb 18 11:37:58 <PaulFertser> Eirik_: what troubles do you have with Qi?
Feb 18 11:39:14 <gfather> PaulFertser hay m8 
Feb 18 11:39:49 <gfather> guys anyone tries Fyp ? 
Feb 18 11:39:56 <Eirik_> PaulFertser: it's not specifically Qi at this point, just getting SCP to work. Baby steps.
Feb 18 11:40:12 <PaulFertser> gfather: Hey :)
Feb 18 11:40:34 <gfather> :) , hows things going ? 
Feb 18 11:40:41 <PaulFertser> Eirik_: scp is not related to bootloader at all.
Feb 18 11:41:29 <Eirik_> PaulFertser: somebody in my colloquy group managed to delete the keyboard, so I'm SCPing over an ipk to install the Mofi keyboard 
Feb 18 11:41:38 <torpor> hiya folks
Feb 18 11:41:41 <PaulFertser> Eirik_: what distro are you using?
Feb 18 11:42:01 <torpor> just dug my neo1973 and freerunner out of the dusty box they'd been sitting in for a few months, charged 'em up, and am now wondering what i should run on them for fun.
Feb 18 11:42:21 <PaulFertser> torpor: SHR unstable
Feb 18 11:42:26 <torpor> anyone got any recommendations what i should put on either of these for a bit of fun today?  is there a 'state of the art' all-in-one distro that has a bunch of cool apps in it?
Feb 18 11:42:28 <PaulFertser> torpor: or Debian
Feb 18 11:42:33 <torpor> i've looked at the kustomizer script .. 
Feb 18 11:42:38 <PaulFertser> torpor: forget it
Feb 18 11:42:40 <torpor> and FDOM
Feb 18 11:42:43 <PaulFertser> Too
Feb 18 11:42:46 <Eirik_> PaulFertser: whatever is installed by default
Feb 18 11:42:51 <torpor> so SHR unstable is interesting
Feb 18 11:42:54 <torpor> ?
Feb 18 11:43:04 <PaulFertser> Eirik_: then i'm not interested at all. 
Feb 18 11:43:21 <PaulFertser> torpor: can be used as a phone even. And yes, interesting.
Feb 18 11:43:32 <rhkfin> torpor: the current kustomizer is ok, I'm working on 0.3 with a bunch of fixes. 
Feb 18 11:43:45 <Eirik_> PaulFertser: yeah this isn't very exciting
Feb 18 11:43:52 <torpor> what about wifi and bluetooth and .. dare i say it .. 'cool' apps?
Feb 18 11:43:59 <PaulFertser> Eirik_: no wonder, nobody is supposed to use it anyway.
Feb 18 11:44:11 <Eirik_> PaulFertser: I'm working on installing android, though
Feb 18 11:44:36 <Eirik_> I just need to change to Qi to get past the 2 mb kernel limit
Feb 18 11:44:50 <PaulFertser> torpor: wifi on FR works, GTA01 can have some problems. Bluetooth works too. Cool apps? I think there're some.
Feb 18 11:44:52 <torpor> so will shr run on neo1973?  i wanna use it for something..
Feb 18 11:45:06 <PaulFertser> Eirik_: i don't care about android as well.
Feb 18 11:45:22 <torpor> okay i'm about to flash my gta01 with shr unstable then .. ;)
Feb 18 11:45:28 <PaulFertser> torpor: the latest shr unstable runs on gta01 reasonably well. Bugreports are welcome.
Feb 18 11:45:45 <torpor> ok then off i go.
Feb 18 11:45:53 <torpor> and on fr i guess i'll try FDOM or kustomizer 0.3 when its ready
Feb 18 11:46:10 <PaulFertser> torpor: though wifi on FR still has some arcane problems that can only be resolved by an update from Atheros which we all wait.
Feb 18 11:46:27 <torpor> thats bad news
Feb 18 11:46:32 <torpor> i had hoped all that would be fixed by now
Feb 18 11:46:34 <torpor> shee-it.
Feb 18 11:46:35 <PaulFertser> torpor: FDOM is dead. Kustomizer is dead. Can't you understand guys, that OM2008.x is dead?
Feb 18 11:46:46 <PaulFertser> torpor: wifi works for most people in the most situations.
Feb 18 11:47:46 <torpor> om is dead?
Feb 18 11:47:49 <PaulFertser> torpor: though the work to get the latest kernel on GTA01 running is ongoing and that affects wifi reliability on gta01 a lot.
Feb 18 11:48:06 <PaulFertser> torpor: OM2008.x is dead. OM-the-company as alive.
Feb 18 11:48:33 <torpor> ok so i should run shr then?
Feb 18 11:48:39 <torpor> doing it now... ;)
Feb 18 11:48:44 <PaulFertser> torpor: that means, only relatively old kernel can be run on gta01 atm, so you wifi is even more unreliable on gta01 comparing to gta02.
Feb 18 11:49:07 <torpor> gta01 has wifi?
Feb 18 11:49:13 <torpor> did not know that! :)
Feb 18 11:49:28 <PaulFertser> torpor: doesn't it? I don't own a gta01, so can't say for sure :)
Feb 18 11:50:53 <PaulFertser> Hm, yes, it doesn't. One thing less to worry :)
Feb 18 11:53:48 <rhkfin> PaulFertser: why's Kustomizer dead?
Feb 18 11:57:45 <rhkfin> PaulFertser: check kurppa.fi/freerunner/kustomizer_devel
Feb 18 12:00:23 <torpor> coz its based on OM?
Feb 18 12:01:41 <PaulFertser> rhkfin: Kustomizer is for customizing OM2008.x, right?
Feb 18 12:03:24 <rhkfin> PaulFertser: yes. And I agree that I should move to FSO soon :)
Feb 18 12:03:48 <PaulFertser> rhkfin: I understand that you made a considerable effort to make Kustomizer. But alas, OM2008.x is not supported anyway...
Feb 18 12:04:15 <rhkfin> Agreed
Feb 18 12:04:24 <torpor> rhkfin: i'm putting kustomizer on my freerunner right now just to check it out 
Feb 18 12:04:27 <torpor> and shr on my neo
Feb 18 12:05:10 <PaulFertser> rhkfin: i wonder, what made you put so much time in the distribution that was obviously doomed from like september?
Feb 18 12:05:49 <rhkfin> PaulFertser: lack of knowledge and a need to be able to set up the stuff easily. This allow me to try whatever I want and then return back to the original easily.
Feb 18 12:06:34 <PaulFertser> rhkfin: are you one of those who doesn't like rootfs on uSD concept? ;)
Feb 18 12:06:59 <panicking> PaulFertser: I decide at the end to add a timeout to the atcommand like in the ogsmd
Feb 18 12:07:29 <torpor> rhkfin: seems like kustomizer 0.3 has some bugs no?  i'm getting a few segfaults .. 
Feb 18 12:07:30 <rhkfin> torpor: opkg.org might has some broken packages -> everything will not install that's supposed to be installed
Feb 18 12:07:37 <torpor> ah i see
Feb 18 12:07:40 <rhkfin> torpor: broken packages at opkg.org :(
Feb 18 12:07:46 <torpor> bummer
Feb 18 12:07:59 <rhkfin> Same thing with some dependencies: zenity is not available any more etc..
Feb 18 12:08:48 <torpor> bummer
Feb 18 12:08:52 <torpor> easy to fix?
Feb 18 12:09:19 <PaulFertser> panicking: btw, i don't have a proof or anything but i suspect that some incoming unsolicited messages shouldn't reset the timeout. To be on the safe side i disabled resetting it on incoming responses. Otherwise it's a working solution, but it's clearly a layering violation, so you better do it in RIL instead (imho).
Feb 18 12:09:55 <rhkfin> I don't know. I have no idea where to find zenity (-> wlan-application from opkg.org not installed). And I don't know about opkg.org. Too bad people upload some broken stuff there.
Feb 18 12:10:12 <torpor> opkg.org seems to go out of date pretty fast
Feb 18 12:10:29 <PaulFertser> rhkfin: too bad people don't properly integrate their stuff in OE.
Feb 18 12:10:38 <rhkfin> some packages there fail with md5sum mismatch
Feb 18 12:10:43 <rhkfin> PaulFertser: right, that's the problem :(
Feb 18 12:13:07 <rhkfin> torpor: To me it looks that everything that many packages (mostly games from opkg.org) fail but I hope the rest works ~ok.
Feb 18 12:13:29 <PaulFertser> rhkfin: I think it'd be cool if you joined the SHR team to help them with stuff. It's the most active community distribution atm.
Feb 18 12:14:12 <rhkfin> PaulFertser: I have to check the FSO-based stuff soon so I guess SHR is the one.
Feb 18 12:14:18 <rhkfin> PaulFertser: you're working on SHR?
Feb 18 12:14:29 <rhkfin> torpor: my log: http://kurppa.fi/freerunner/kustomizer_files/kustomizer_devel_log_20090218.txt
Feb 18 12:15:11 <torpor> hmm.
Feb 18 12:15:18 <torpor> shr doesn't seem to boot.
Feb 18 12:15:27 <PaulFertser> rhkfin: nope, i don't work at all. Never tried SHR myself. I use Debian with FSO. I do occasional bugfixes, a bit of Qi work and recently a bit of kernel work even.
Feb 18 12:16:04 <rhkfin> PaulFertser: ok. I'm interested in Debian (and it's workign packages :) as well but my experience is that the installer is ~broken. No sure about the current state.
Feb 18 12:16:14 <rhkfin> But gotta go.. see you.
Feb 18 12:16:25 <PaulFertser> rhkfin: installer can't be broken
Feb 18 12:16:36 <PaulFertser> rhkfin: it's just a shellscript, tweak to your needs :)
Feb 18 12:16:38 <PaulFertser> rhkfin: luck
Feb 18 12:24:27 <torpor> so i guess SHR has to be run root-on-SD to be effective?
Feb 18 12:24:41 <torpor> i've tried flashing the lite-jffs2 image twice now and get kernel panics that it can't mount rootfs
Feb 18 12:24:45 <torpor> so i'll try root-on-sd then .. 
Feb 18 12:25:36 <PaulFertser> torpor: no, should SHR work from NAND without issues.
Feb 18 12:25:45 <torpor> well i don't know whats wrong then
Feb 18 12:26:22 <PaulFertser> torpor: make sure you flash the kernel for GTA01 and jffs rootfs for GTA01 to the write nand partitions.
Feb 18 12:26:36 <PaulFertser> torpor: look carefully at the kernel output on the console.
Feb 18 12:26:42 <PaulFertser> torpor: check your u-boot configuration
Feb 18 12:26:46 <PaulFertser> torpor: something like that.
Feb 18 12:27:04 <torpor> it all looks 'normal'
Feb 18 12:30:58 <torpor> sn't it the case that neo1973 only has 64meg of NAND?  so i can't flash the 'big fat' 72m jffs2 file, right?
Feb 18 12:34:52 <sigi> hi
Feb 18 12:34:54 <CM_work> torpor: Yeah, I've used the shr-lite image on my gta01
Feb 18 12:36:42 <sigi> I'm trying out hackable:1 for the first time and it leaves me at the login prompt - is this intended that way? (trying the daily build tar.gz)
Feb 18 12:38:00 <sigi> ..without ssh daemon running.
Feb 18 12:40:08 <torpor> CM_work: do you know if the full image will work too or is it only provided for root-on-SD users?
Feb 18 12:44:40 <torpor> hmm.. kustomizer seems cool, but the end result is a rather messy system
Feb 18 12:48:20 <Eirik_> so.. looks like somebody managed to break this FR through ssh
Feb 18 12:48:28 <Eirik_> it gets stuck at the progress bar during boot
Feb 18 12:49:42 <Eirik_> apparently he "ran a bunch of commands" :-/
Feb 18 12:50:06 <Eirik_> and is unable to explain this SNAFU in detail 
Feb 18 13:00:50 <CM_work> torpor: I don't think the full image works since it doesn't fit, but I haven't tried
Feb 18 13:01:01 <CM_work> On flash that is
Feb 18 13:06:44 <kd8ikt> ...
Feb 18 13:08:23 <Eirik_> speaking of doesn't fit, what is the deal with the FR not having a stylus socket 
Feb 18 13:08:30 <Eirik_> it should come bundled with a rubber band at least
Feb 18 13:08:31 <Defiant-> hehehehehe
Feb 18 13:09:38 <kd8ikt> just have to make everything finger friendly
Feb 18 13:14:38 <sigi> doesn't fit? That's what she said...
Feb 18 13:16:44 <Exxter> is there a way, to run the freerunner as a navigator?
Feb 18 13:19:47 <sigi> Exxter: Navit
Feb 18 13:20:39 <Zorkman> sigi: have you succesfully used navit to navigate?
Feb 18 13:21:50 <shellevil> I've used tangogpd
Feb 18 13:21:50 <shellevil> s
Feb 18 13:24:40 <Eirik_> hahaha, kernel panic on the FR
Feb 18 13:24:58 <Eirik_> not syncing vfs, unable to mount root fs
Feb 18 13:24:59 <Eirik_> toot
Feb 18 13:25:04 <kd8ikt> dunno whats funny about that
Feb 18 13:25:19 <Zorkman> i had that happening a lot months agop
Feb 18 13:25:24 <Exxter> sigi & shellevil: thanx very much
Feb 18 13:25:25 <Zorkman> when booting from SD
Feb 18 13:25:50 <Zorkman> booting from internal flash and then rewriting the kernel fixed that mostly
Feb 18 13:26:03 <kd8ikt> i finnaly took the two screws out of mine
Feb 18 13:26:11 <Eirik_> getting kernel panic booting from internal flash, don't have a microsd USB adapter
Feb 18 13:26:15 <kd8ikt> now the front can pop off
Feb 18 13:26:18 <Eirik_> can you format ext2 in windows?
Feb 18 13:26:35 <Eirik_> does that even help
Feb 18 13:26:45 <Eirik_> i mean isn't this phone ghetto enough while it's in one piece
Feb 18 13:28:20 <Zorkman> Eirik_: i think you will be able to format that in windows, with something like norton partion magic
Feb 18 13:28:35 <Eirik_> is that free
Feb 18 13:28:36 <Zorkman> but you can also format it inside the fr
Feb 18 13:28:59 <Eirik_> the FR is kernel panicking 
Feb 18 13:29:01 <kd8ikt> http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Disassembling_Neo1973
Feb 18 13:29:09 <Eirik_> it is getting curbstomped at the end of this semester
Feb 18 13:29:24 <kd8ikt> pluss i know have access to the dbug port
Feb 18 13:29:31 <kd8ikt> now
Feb 18 13:29:42 <Defiant-> Zorkman: the last time I did something with partition magic on ext3 partitions I had to restore the backup
Feb 18 13:30:00 <Zorkman> Eirik_: partition magic has a trial i think...but i know of no free software
Feb 18 13:30:10 <Defiant-> gnuparted
Feb 18 13:30:17 <Zorkman> Defiant-: I only once used it, to partion part of my disk before installing linux for dualbooting
Feb 18 13:30:26 <Zorkman> so not much experience wiht it
Feb 18 13:31:28 <Defiant-> but to format without having linux installed I would use knoppix or grml
Feb 18 13:31:42 <Eirik_> Zorkman: thanks for the tip, going for that
Feb 18 13:34:55 <Zorkman> yeah live cd/live usb is also a good alternative (if it detects your wireless card if you need to use one :))
Feb 18 13:38:10 <Cervajz> Hello there
Feb 18 13:38:32 <Cervajz> SHR doesn't have enabled a wifi?
Feb 18 13:38:56 <Zorkman> Cervajz are you using shr unstable?
Feb 18 13:39:03 <Cervajz> Zorkman: yes
Feb 18 13:39:11 <Zorkman> then you have to go to SHR Settings and click on the internet button
Feb 18 13:39:15 <Zorkman> then you can turn the wifi radio on
Feb 18 13:39:18 <Zorkman> it works very reliable
Feb 18 13:39:45 <Zorkman> anybody tried AVRCP with bluetooth? (next and previous song) 
Feb 18 13:39:46 <Cervajz> Zorkman: I'm idiot, thanks....I tried it from ssh console :]
Feb 18 13:43:11 <Cervajz> Another question - Power options in Illume conf. doesn't works?
Feb 18 13:43:35 <Cervajz> Have to I set power parameters in SHR settings?
Feb 18 13:44:07 <Cervajz> I'm sorry for my English
Feb 18 13:50:36 <torpor> does GPS 'just work' on gta01 with SHR or is there something else i have to do to make it owrk?
Feb 18 13:53:51 <kd8ikt> i had to stand outside for a min
Feb 18 13:54:39 <torpor> but i dont have to worry about adding gpsd or something like that with SHR right?
Feb 18 13:54:55 <kd8ikt> is it possible to flash gta02 nor without dbug board?
Feb 18 13:55:11 <kd8ikt> torpor: ps ax |grep gpsd
Feb 18 13:55:22 <kd8ikt> its more than likely already installed
Feb 18 13:55:29 <kd8ikt> fso-gpsd that is
Feb 18 13:55:33 <torpor> havent't ssh'd in yet
Feb 18 13:55:46 <tig|> torpor:  nope GPS should work out of the box
Feb 18 13:55:50 <Zorkman> Cervajz: i found that in shr unstable from 09/02 disabling suspend didn't work from illume config when the phone is not plugged in
Feb 18 13:55:51 <torpor> just not sure if its there. . the neo1973 will act fine as a GPS device for me in the meantime, if it works.
Feb 18 13:55:54 <torpor> okay
Feb 18 13:55:57 <torpor> thanks
Feb 18 13:55:58 <kd8ikt> cause i founf this http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Flashing_NOR
Feb 18 13:55:59 <torpor> rebooting for the first time now .. 
Feb 18 13:56:08 <Zorkman> i edited a file (it's documented in the shr tweaks page)
Feb 18 13:57:05 <torpor> damnit .. PUK screen came up and then crashed
Feb 18 13:57:07 <torpor> how do i get it back?
Feb 18 13:58:05 <kd8ikt> PUK?
Feb 18 13:58:15 <torpor> to unlock a sim-locked phone
Feb 18 13:58:24 <torpor> never mind it came back, i entered my puk, new pin, and it seemed to 'take it'
Feb 18 13:58:28 <torpor> but now dialling crashes
Feb 18 13:58:53 <kd8ikt> any antenna strength?
Feb 18 13:59:13 <kd8ikt> fso takes a few to prime the pump
Feb 18 13:59:17 <torpor> yup
Feb 18 13:59:45 <torpor> ok
Feb 18 14:00:34 <Eirik_> man, I can't figure out where dfu-util ended up
Feb 18 14:01:30 <torpor> okay SHR looks good but man its slow.
Feb 18 14:03:02 <kd8ikt> think everything is
Feb 18 14:03:27 <kd8ikt> stacks and stacks of python
Feb 18 14:03:30 <torpor> dialler just crashes
Feb 18 14:03:32 <torpor> over and over
Feb 18 14:03:34 <torpor> dunno whats up there 
Feb 18 14:03:39 <torpor> i suppose i should ssh in and find out
Feb 18 14:04:01 <Cervajz> torpor: ? What version do you have? I don't have problem swith dialer, etc...
Feb 18 14:06:07 <torpor> i just got the latest SHR-unstable image for my gta01
Feb 18 14:06:17 <torpor> on gta02 i'm running om2008.2 with kustomizer 
Feb 18 14:06:33 <torpor> i just want phone and gps to work on the gtra01 and on the FR i wanna play with all the latest toys .. ;)
Feb 18 14:07:33 <Eirik_> when you follow the instructions for compiling dfu-util found here: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/User:SNMoore#Mac_OS_X_Recipe_2:_Build_.26_Install_dfu-util_2 - where does the binary end up? 
Feb 18 14:11:26 <torpor> Eirik_: do 'find ./ -name dfu-util'
Feb 18 14:11:45 <Eirik_> nothing :/
Feb 18 14:11:47 <torpor> it should put it into /opt/local/ soewhere
Feb 18 14:12:07 <Eirik_> is this guide missing a step? I'm not that experienced with linux
Feb 18 14:12:14 <torpor> find /opt/local -name dfu-util -print
Feb 18 14:12:33 <Eirik_> nothing
Feb 18 14:12:49 <torpor> if you did this:
Feb 18 14:12:49 <torpor> $ ./configure --prefix=/opt/local
Feb 18 14:12:59 <torpor> then you will need to do 'make install' before it'll go into the tree
Feb 18 14:13:57 <Eirik_> torpor: I did use that configure string, but I'm getting an error doing make install.
Feb 18 14:14:02 <Eirik_> let me put this on pastebin, just a second
Feb 18 14:17:31 <Eirik_> torpor: http://jqd.org/pastebin?id=143
Feb 18 14:26:51 <torpor> ermm that looks totally borked Eirik_ .. i'd suggest you start again or try to find dfu-util for osx already compiled somewhere
Feb 18 14:26:54 <torpor> i think its in ports
Feb 18 14:29:53 <sigi> I just tried out Hackable:1 and it fails to register to the gsm network. Some advice?
Feb 18 14:32:35 <CM_work> torpor: I've had lots of alsa trouple with SHR
Feb 18 14:33:06 <CM_work> FSO worked very well (yesterdays experimental gta01 build with 2.6.24 kernel)
Feb 18 14:33:37 <CM_work> alsa trouble -> dialer crashes
Feb 18 14:35:51 <torpor> okay i got it working 
Feb 18 14:36:08 <torpor> it turns out it doesn't like it when the SIM card is a) puk-locked, b) expired (i.e. the provider disabled the card)
Feb 18 14:36:11 <torpor> so now it works fine
Feb 18 14:40:27 <Eirik_> torpor: thanks for the analysis, I guess there's no point going through all this compiling if I can just grab binaries
Feb 18 14:40:53 <tig|> on the latest SHR in Settings does the bluetooth button actually work?
Feb 18 14:41:54 <tig|> because after turning it on hidd seems to behave as if it is still off
Feb 18 14:45:14 <spir1loc> so how long does gta01 usually take to get a GPS fix?  like, 10 minutes or so right?
Feb 18 14:45:32 <Defiant-> less
Feb 18 14:45:36 <Defiant-> oh 01, sorry
Feb 18 14:46:36 <Weiss> spir1loc: can only comment for a Freerunner (different GPS hardware...), but in an open field with clear sky, about 15 seconds for me. about ten minutes when sitting next to a window with limited sky
Feb 18 14:47:37 <spir1loc> okay i've got mine in the window
Feb 18 14:47:48 <spir1loc> any way i can check the gps stats from the shell?  i can'tsee my screen .. ;)
Feb 18 14:48:23 <Weiss> if you're using gpsd, you can point something like TangoGPS running on a different computer at the Neo's IP address
Feb 18 14:51:12 <spir1loc> Weiss: good to know, trying it now.
Feb 18 14:51:45 <Weiss> or you can just run programs on the Neo and use X forwarding over SSH to make them come up on the desktop
Feb 18 14:52:14 <spir1loc> do i just leave the port # to the default?
Feb 18 14:52:22 <Weiss> yep
Feb 18 14:52:24 <spir1loc> my gta01 is 192.168.0.202 .. so i just change the ip address?
Feb 18 14:52:24 <spir1loc> ok
Feb 18 14:52:33 <spir1loc> still says no gps found
Feb 18 14:53:42 <spir1loc> 'connection refused' hmm .. 
Feb 18 14:54:35 <Weiss> what software are you running on the phone?
Feb 18 14:54:40 <spir1loc> SHR
Feb 18 14:54:42 <spir1loc> just installed
Feb 18 14:54:45 <spir1loc> SHR-unstable
Feb 18 14:54:53 <spir1loc> gpsd is running
Feb 18 14:54:56 <Zorkman> ²
Feb 18 14:55:04 <spir1loc> i can telnet localhost 2947 on the phone and ii get GPSD as a response
Feb 18 14:55:15 <Weiss> that sounds right
Feb 18 14:55:21 <Weiss> maybe you need to tell it to listen on usb0?
Feb 18 14:55:29 <Dave> o_O
Feb 18 14:55:34 <spir1loc> i guess my local host (linux box) is not allowing it .. 
Feb 18 14:55:43 <spir1loc> or that
Feb 18 14:55:59 <Eirik_> oh jeez.. I'm having a seriously hard time flashing Qi to my FR
Feb 18 14:56:34 <Weiss> spir1loc: netstat -tapn on the phone?
Feb 18 14:58:24 <spir1loc> invalid option
Feb 18 14:58:25 <spir1loc> -p
Feb 18 14:58:46 <spir1loc> tcp        0      0 127.0.0.1:2947          127.0.0.1:44895         ESTABLISHED 
Feb 18 14:59:11 <Weiss> is there a LISTEN line with the same port number
Feb 18 14:59:12 <spir1loc> isn't there a dev node i can cat to see the GPS messages or something/
Feb 18 14:59:14 <Weiss> ?
Feb 18 14:59:20 <spir1loc> tcp        0      0 127.0.0.1:2947          0.0.0.0:*               LISTEN      
Feb 18 14:59:37 <Weiss> /dev/ttySAC0 or something i think..
Feb 18 15:00:03 <spir1loc> nothing
Feb 18 15:01:10 <spir1loc> well i'll leave itin the window for a while
Feb 18 15:01:14 <Weiss> ttySAC1 or S0 or something? should be on the Wiki somewhere. but i don't know about GTA01.
Feb 18 15:02:53 <spir1loc> doesn't the gta01 need gllin or something?
Feb 18 15:07:00 <kd8ikt> oh yea
Feb 18 15:07:05 <kd8ikt> hmm
Feb 18 15:07:14 <kd8ikt> dunno 
Feb 18 15:20:39 <Dave> To boldly go where no freerunner has gone before...
Feb 18 15:21:10 <torb> Hello! Where can I find images for the OS the freerunner ships with (2007.2, i think?)
Feb 18 15:51:30 <agg1n> hey, what's the easiest way of building xf86-video-glamo. i want to test it :)
Feb 18 15:51:50 <agg1n> or it is not managable for a noob like me :(
Feb 18 15:53:47 <agg1n> s/./?
Feb 18 16:02:32 <Eirik_> so, Openmoko Flasher won't let me change the greyed out dropdown menu from "gta01" to "gta02", should I be worried about this when I have a gta02 phone?
Feb 18 16:03:58 <Weiss> agg1n: pretty tricky at the moment, until the bitbake recipes are properly worked out (e.g. there needs to be a small modification to Xorg itself, which hasn't been sent upstream AFAIK)
Feb 18 16:04:04 <kd8ikt> use dfu-util
Feb 18 16:04:22 <Weiss> agg1n: in theory, set up your openembedded environment, then "bitbake xf86-video-glamo"
Feb 18 16:04:37 <Eirik_> I've spent the last 2 hours trying to get dfu-util to work properly, but there's always something 
Feb 18 16:04:42 <kd8ikt> -c build
Feb 18 16:05:40 <Eirik_> huh?
Feb 18 16:06:20 <agg1n> Weiss: ok, then i will try that :)
Feb 18 16:13:19 <Eirik_> dfu-util is acting up in the following way: http://pastebin.com/d70b70c44
Feb 18 16:13:24 <Eirik_> not sure what the deal is here
Feb 18 16:15:30 <Eirik_> oh heh
Feb 18 16:15:39 <Eirik_> never mind!
Feb 18 16:19:50 <jucs> Hi!
Feb 18 16:19:57 <jucs> Anyone using fyb/zhone?
Feb 18 16:21:06 <niv> i'm using debian and zhone
Feb 18 16:21:13 <niv> (should be the same *G*)
Feb 18 16:21:19 <jucs> Do you how to change the background in zhone?
Feb 18 16:21:27 <jucs> :-)
Feb 18 16:21:40 <niv> no, i don't 
Feb 18 16:21:54 <niv> but it is a python script
Feb 18 16:22:01 <niv> you should be able to edit it.
Feb 18 16:22:15 <niv> there should be somewhere the background .. or the reference to it.
Feb 18 16:22:35 <jucs> Ah, thanks, I'll try!
Feb 18 16:23:57 <niv> tell me about your results please.
Feb 18 16:24:33 <niv> for me the background in zhone isn't first choice either.
Feb 18 16:25:29 <jucs> I will :-P But I've never used python, so I'm quite blind for the right thing to search for
Feb 18 16:25:32 <Eirik_> how do i make sure openmoko isn't using the SD card for anything?
Feb 18 16:25:54 <Eirik_> I'm trying to format and repartition with fdisk but I get a warning: WARNING: rereading partition table failed, kernel still uses old table: Device or resource busy
Feb 18 16:26:25 <phobie> Eirik_: just try a reboot after fdisk
Feb 18 16:26:33 <Eirik_> will do
Feb 18 16:27:07 <Eirik_> also, is the 2 minute start up time because of a network call timing out or is it just that slow
Feb 18 16:27:47 <phobie> IMHO it's just that slow
Feb 18 16:28:37 <Eirik_> oh well
Feb 18 16:32:38 <Eirik_> phobie: changes i made are still there and now it writes to the table too, thanks :)
Feb 18 16:34:27 <phobie> np
Feb 18 16:43:00 <niv> mh?
Feb 18 16:43:15 <niv> you can boot the freerunner via usb0 network interface?
Feb 18 16:43:25 <niv> now that is really sick..
Feb 18 16:46:41 <jucs> Urgh, can't find anything^^
Feb 18 16:46:56 <kd8ikt>  11:46:55 up 9 days,  3:05,  8 users,  load average: 3.90, 3.13, 2.98
Feb 18 16:47:01 <Dave> jucs :o
Feb 18 16:47:08 <kd8ikt> my machine is going to explode
Feb 18 16:47:11 <jucs> Dave :-D
Feb 18 16:47:17 <Dave> :D
Feb 18 16:54:15 <PaulFertser> kd8ikt:  19:54:06  up 51 days, 10:01, 30 users,  load average: 0.00, 0.03, 0.05
Feb 18 16:54:51 <kd8ikt> load avg
Feb 18 16:54:58 <PaulFertser> kd8ikt: that's my home pc and i'm using it alone (sometimes my brother visits me). Probably i have too many xterms open :)
Feb 18 16:56:04 <kd8ikt> maybe cause i'm messing around with compiling android shr qt and openwrt more or less at the same time ;D
Feb 18 17:03:41 <Eirik_> oh wow
Feb 18 17:03:45 <Eirik_> even android is slow on this phone
Feb 18 17:03:48 <Eirik_> oh well
Feb 18 17:05:55 <leinir> Tried Qt Extended yet?
Feb 18 17:07:47 <PaulFertser> Eirik_: one has to pay for an enormous screen resolution and the architecture which lead to extremely slow uSD bus speed.
Feb 18 17:11:52 <jucs> k, firefox is a bit to heavy for the poor freerunner, I think
Feb 18 17:12:43 <max_posedon> jucs, I know guy, that successfully use him.
Feb 18 17:12:43 <Eirik_> PaulFertser: freedom isn't free, huh
Feb 18 17:13:13 <jucs> It's possible if you're not opening anything else, but...
Feb 18 17:32:23 <Eirik_> hahaha
Feb 18 17:32:31 <Eirik_> the freerunner IS pretty bad i guess
Feb 18 17:32:50 <Eirik_> what is the deal with the unintuitive button placement
Feb 18 17:32:59 <Eirik_> i keep having to look for aux 
Feb 18 17:33:09 <Eirik_> at least i am free coding for this
Feb 18 17:34:31 <leinir> Personally i find that the button is exactly the right place for me :)
Feb 18 17:35:00 <leinir> It's right where my thumb is when i hold it in my left hand, and where my index finger is when holding it in the right :)
Feb 18 18:10:48 <PBeck> ahoi
Feb 18 18:47:53 <quatrox> PaulFertser_: hey
Feb 18 18:48:08 <PaulFertser_> quatrox: Hey :)
Feb 18 18:48:54 <quatrox> I still have the download issue... I will try to generate more useful logs when I get time
Feb 18 18:50:36 <quatrox> PaulFertser_: Should I try to upgrade the GSM FW?
Feb 18 18:50:46 <PaulFertser_> quatrox: sure, to moko11beta
Feb 18 18:51:08 <quatrox> ok. Then I will do that first and see if that helps
Feb 18 19:13:00 <Serdar> hi
Feb 18 19:13:56 <Serdar> I got my Openmoko today, I bought a freerunner, but it named neo is that correct?
Feb 18 19:14:07 <quatrox> yes
Feb 18 19:14:08 <Serdar> I also have a strange OS
Feb 18 19:14:16 <Serdar> ah, k
Feb 18 19:14:24 <lindi-> Serdar: openmoko neo freerunner
Feb 18 19:14:38 <quatrox> Serdar: neo1973 == GTA01, neo Freerunner == GTA02
Feb 18 19:16:27 <PaulFertser_> Serdar: so, what OS did you get preinstalled?
Feb 18 19:16:41 <Serdar> oki, I want to update my Linux on it, because this one which is already installed can do nothing, I can only call sudoku but that's not the only thing I want, so I want flash it with the currenct snapshot of openmoko, but this dfu-util stuff which is linked here http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Getting_Started_with_your_Neo_FreeRunner/de#Schritt_1:_Download_DFU-util don't exist
Feb 18 19:17:04 <Serdar> PaulFertser_, no Idea I have not many functions to tell it
Feb 18 19:17:42 <PaulFertser_> Serdar: there's no current snapshot of openmoko at all, serry. And i advice you to use english part of wiki, it's supposed to be maintained.
Feb 18 19:18:00 <Serdar> I get openmoko before bootmenu but the bootsplash are boots
Feb 18 19:18:46 <PaulFertser_> Serdar: and?
Feb 18 19:20:09 <Serdar> I get this green booting splash anf after that a black screen with 6 Menues
Feb 18 19:20:25 <Serdar> Contacts, Dialer Locations message Settigns and Sudoku
Feb 18 19:20:37 <PaulFertser_> Serdar: i don't understand anything, sorry :)
Feb 18 19:20:38 <Serdar> but Settings don't work
Feb 18 19:21:31 <Serdar> I hm
Feb 18 19:21:35 <Serdar> -I
Feb 18 19:22:24 <sigi> I'm trying out hackable and just wrote an sms. How do I send it?
Feb 18 19:22:48 <sigi> It uses the messages app from om 2007 I guess
Feb 18 19:22:59 <PaulFertser_> Serdar: what do you want to do with your phone? Do you like Debian?
Feb 18 19:23:57 <Serdar> I prefer gentoo, but Openmoko would be nice also, but there is no http://wiki.openmoko.org/images/5/5a/Todaypage_reduced_true.png menu's at my current os.
Feb 18 19:24:41 <laen> Mmm yeah, Gentoo on the Openmoko Freerunner, getting closer to gathering the information and knowledge to get to do it.
Feb 18 19:25:02 <PaulFertser_> Serdar: there is no distribution called Openmoko
Feb 18 19:25:16 <laen> PaulFertser_: om2007 is called Openmoko?
Feb 18 19:25:21 <Serdar> huh?
Feb 18 19:25:33 <quatrox> Serdar: Do you mean OM2008.x?
Feb 18 19:26:04 <PaulFertser_> laen: probably but that can't be considered for installation anyway.
Feb 18 19:26:11 <Serdar> If I don't got it completely wrong it's fic neo freerunner with openmoko/qtopia on it
Feb 18 19:26:32 <sigi> Serdar: no its om2007
Feb 18 19:27:34 <ezekiel-v3> shortening it down to two letters makes all the difference? Not to feed the flames, but they're all distributions of the OpenMoko platform.
Feb 18 19:27:57 <ezekiel-v3> except the ones that aren't, like debian.
Feb 18 19:29:52 <laen> ezekiel-v3: awww, no flame :(
Feb 18 19:30:25 <ezekiel-v3> haha
Feb 18 19:30:33 <PaulFertser_> Serdar: there existed a fork of qtopia maintained by OM-the-company, they called it ASU, then it became 2008.x. Now that distribution is abandoned.
Feb 18 19:30:53 <mwester> (like most of the things OM-the-company has delivered)
Feb 18 19:31:40 <laen> mwester++
Feb 18 19:31:53 <PaulFertser_> mwester: Nelson said that he's going to work on end-user visible kernel issues. He's got GTA02 and going to use it as a phone.
Feb 18 19:32:18 <mwester> Who's Nelson
Feb 18 19:32:19 <PaulFertser_> mwester: Balaji received GTA01 and said he's going to resurrect gta01 support in andy-tracking really soon.
Feb 18 19:32:19 <mwester> ?
Feb 18 19:32:32 <mwester> (belaji) Riiiiiiiggghht.
Feb 18 19:32:34 <PaulFertser_> Nelson Castillo, OM employee.
Feb 18 19:32:44 <PaulFertser_> Kernel dev
Feb 18 19:32:45 <mwester> I confess I'm not overly impressed, yet.
Feb 18 19:33:05 <PaulFertser_> But still. They are going to support gta01, that's a good sign.
Feb 18 19:33:13 <mwester> They're all .tw right now -- think about it. 
Feb 18 19:33:31 <mwester> Why would anyone NOW say that they are taking on the "stable" kernel stuff?
Feb 18 19:33:57 <mwester> a) because they hear the concerns of the community?
Feb 18 19:34:00 <mwester> or is it:
Feb 18 19:34:29 <mwester> b) so that Andy and possibly Werner can focus completely and exclusively on the GTA03 and 2.6.31-rc00000
Feb 18 19:34:29 <mwester> ?
Feb 18 19:34:41 <laen> mwester: watched the fosdem video about the Debian Openmoko team yesterday, they are throwing focus on the GTA01 too again.
Feb 18 19:35:06 <mwester> Don't answer that anyone -- instead, print that out, put in on your calendar for mid-March, and then come back here and we'll see what the REAL truth is...
Feb 18 19:35:17 <laen> Mid march?
Feb 18 19:35:27 <mwester> Yep.  It's like politics.
Feb 18 19:35:33 <ezekiel-v3> what is this 'print' you speak of?
Feb 18 19:35:47 <PaulFertser_> mwester: I'm sure they heard concerns of the community. Developers heard that for sure. Andy is focused on the GTA03, true. Not so for Nelson. Nelson's also got a gta01 btw.
Feb 18 19:36:16 <mwester> You need time for the "masses" (in this case, the rabid Openmoko fan-boys on the community mailing list) to wake up and realize they've been hoodwinked --- again.
Feb 18 19:36:39 <mwester> PaulFertser_:  I **HOPE** I am wrong in this case.
Feb 18 19:36:40 <PaulFertser_> mwester: btw, Andy heard the concerns "of the community" and started to try to beat Trac to shape again. And it's not easy for him, because OM-the-company is mad weird.
Feb 18 19:36:53 <mwester> But historically, you know that I am right FAR more often than wrong.
Feb 18 19:37:42 <PaulFertser_> Yes. Still i can't see how gta01 is so different from gta02. And i can't see why any kernel hacker with gta01 can get it to work. Moreover, FSO does care about gta01 as well.
Feb 18 19:37:49 <mwester> (Andy and concerns and trac)  That's why I noted that they are in .tw --- it doesn't matter what Andy or Werner say or think, it is Sean who will dictate the orders.
Feb 18 19:38:16 <mwester> PaulFertser_:  (gta01) The gta01 is not the issue.  The gta02 and the token attention it will get is the issue.
Feb 18 19:38:37 <mwester> Yes, the gta01 is easily fixed.  But not important because it works WONDERFULLY on 2.6.24.
Feb 18 19:39:10 <PaulFertser_> If it works wonderfully, why anyone should be concerned then? ;)
Feb 18 19:39:48 <mwester> The problem is the GTA02 -- it "mostly" works.  And with support being given to someone new, it's effectively left to the community to "finish the job".  Not that I ever expected differently, rather I note this so that the community does not wait for OM to do anything -- they are totally and completely focussed on the GTA03.
Feb 18 19:40:02 <mwester> PaulFertser_:  have I expressed any concern about the gta01?
Feb 18 19:40:13 <mwester> I have expressed concern about the GTA02.
Feb 18 19:40:50 <PaulFertser_> mwester: I thought you said something like "everything OM produces they abandon, and they shouldn't".
Feb 18 19:40:57 <mwester> Read the kernel list -- I noted that the gta01 doesn't work on 2.6.29-rtc-way-too-freaking-early, and that's all I said on it --- I don't care about kernel chasing!
Feb 18 19:41:05 <mwester> You added the "and they shouldn't"
Feb 18 19:41:11 <PaulFertser_> Ah, yes :)
Feb 18 19:41:17 <PaulFertser_> Imagination :)
Feb 18 19:42:05 <PaulFertser_> I started to talk about gta01 as an example that something was changed and they're trying to resurrect support for something they seemingly abandoned before.
Feb 18 19:42:19 <mwester> But it matters not, the gta01 is like a drowning victim -- too late.  OM should focus on the living victims still in the water.
Feb 18 19:42:31 <PaulFertser_> As to the qtopia, i'm glad they abandonded it, i don't think that was a decent idea anyway.
Feb 18 19:42:41 * kd8ikt drowns
Feb 18 19:42:55 <laen> They abandoned it?
Feb 18 19:43:07 <mwester> Instead they cruise off in their boat, leaving some new guy with a rubber tire tube and string to float around and try to help us all out of the water.  Riiight.  Good plan, OM.
Feb 18 19:44:00 <laen> And we're to expect the GTA03 and GTA04 around the same time this year.
Feb 18 19:44:01 <mwester> PaulFertser_:  Yes -- ASU aka OM2008 was like those WW-II tanks fitted so that they could float --- a really really really bad idea.  Astonishingly bad.
Feb 18 19:44:17 <mwester> laen:  Only if you do not consider the business aspects.
Feb 18 19:44:23 <laen> Now that blows me away.. we still don't have a fully fixed GTA02 and they're throwing new ones on the market allready.
Feb 18 19:44:30 <laen> Well, okay.
Feb 18 19:44:58 <mwester> laen:  they have two unsucessful products to date; they are way late -- I ratherr suspect that the investors have given Sean one final chance with the GTA03.
Feb 18 19:45:00 <PaulFertser_> mwester: imho current andy-tracking is in very decent shape on GTA02, i don't see why you don't like it that much.
Feb 18 19:45:24 <mwester> PaulFertser_:  when it's  as stable as 2.6.24 was, I will applaud.
Feb 18 19:45:47 <PaulFertser_> mwester: what should i do to experience instability?
Feb 18 19:45:55 <laen> mwester: you don't think the massive buys from the community of the GTA02 got them enough money for the GTA0{34} project?
Feb 18 19:45:58 <mwester> Reading the IRC channels and the mailing list makes it quite clear that even attempting to build it is an adventure ;)
Feb 18 19:46:21 <mwester> laen:  massive?   Puny, in terms of what it takes to turn a profit on such an item.
Feb 18 19:46:33 <laen> Plus, it's aimed at developers, with the community as a nice input in terms of usability, ideas and money.
Feb 18 19:46:49 <panicking> Well I think that the gta02 can be use to costumize other devices
Feb 18 19:46:49 <laen> Ah on idea about what profit it would actually make tbh, it was a guess.
Feb 18 19:46:51 <PaulFertser_> mwester: not so true. It builds most of the time. In fact, i never was lucky enough to fetch an unbuildable state.
Feb 18 19:47:14 <panicking> I have a lot of ideas
Feb 18 19:47:17 <panicking> in this area
Feb 18 19:47:38 <laen> They have plans, we have panicking =)
Feb 18 19:47:58 <mwester> PaulFertser_:  You have blessed hardware.  Your hardware, if my memory serves me correctly, was running 2.6.28-nothing when others couldn't even boot those images!  The rest of us mere mortals have to put up with constant pain -- but read the mailing list to find out what that is... and if you DO figure out how to reproduce the issues, then you are ALSO able to fix them -- that's the sort of problem we currently have.
Feb 18 19:48:04 <mwester> That's the definition of "unstable" too
Feb 18 19:48:51 <mwester> laen:  by-the-way, the gta02 was aimed at consumers, until well after it started to ship when OM redefined it's audience ;)
Feb 18 19:49:39 <PaulFertser_> mwester: the only hardware issue i know of is WSOD and NSOD. WSOD took very long to workaround (and it was done by a community member), true. NSOD was "fixed" very promptly. Otherwise, i don't remember any real issues.
Feb 18 19:49:58 <mwester> But in any case, for those who wish to be optimists - go ahead - I guess all news from Om is "good news!"  For the realists, just know that it is the gta03 or bust for Openmoko, and the gta02 (based on Paul's news) is now a community owned device.
Feb 18 19:50:36 <PaulFertser_> BTW, i'm a pessimist usually.
Feb 18 19:51:10 <mwester> PaulFertser_:  the wifi is/was not an issue?  You should have told Werner that yours was working PERFECTLY then!!!  He wasted much time fixing it, if it was not broken.
Feb 18 19:51:12 <PaulFertser_> OM does pay for FSO development. And they directly support GTA02. As to the kernel -- currently it's stable enough.
Feb 18 19:51:20 <mwester> Shucks! 
Feb 18 19:51:27 <mwester> Werner STILL thinks there are wifi problems.
Feb 18 19:51:32 <panicking> laen: openmoko can do a custom oriented cover based on the gta02 hardware
Feb 18 19:51:33 <mwester> Paul knows there to not be any!
Feb 18 19:51:40 <PaulFertser_> mwester: The wifi problems are reality.
Feb 18 19:51:47 <PaulFertser_> mwester: For everybody, i do agree.
Feb 18 19:51:47 <mwester> Ah, you didn't say that.
Feb 18 19:51:59 <mwester> My point being that you are overly optimistic.
Feb 18 19:52:33 <mwester> There are MANY problems -- most recently, we finally remove the bandaids on the audio stuff and find a festering wound of horrers beneath -- who's fixing that?
Feb 18 19:52:37 <sigi> Where do I find info on how to install SHR unstable directly onto microsd?
Feb 18 19:52:48 <PaulFertser_> mwester: but. Do you really think OM should have hired a team to reverse engineer the firmware? Werner does a good job on communicating with atheros and providing them with reproducible testcases.
Feb 18 19:52:53 <mwester> Ah, yes -- the uSD problems -- still remain, don't they?
Feb 18 19:53:28 <mwester> PaulFertser_:  I do not speak of HOW om should fix it -- I merely point out that yuour statement that there were no problems left is incorrect.
Feb 18 19:53:43 <mwester> There are many problem, many of them very difficult, all left.
Feb 18 19:53:56 <mwester> Perhaps some of them wil lbe fixed as Om works on the gta03.
Feb 18 19:54:13 <mwester> Perhaps it will be like the gta01; we learn to live with the problems, and are happy that it works at all. :)
Feb 18 19:54:21 * mwester shrugs.
Feb 18 19:54:49 <[df]> personally I'm hoping that enough lessons will be learnt from the gta02 to make the gta03 significantly better
Feb 18 19:54:50 <mwester> Doesn't matter -- just don't let yourself be fooled.  Know the truth when you read the mailing lists and the announcements.
Feb 18 19:54:51 <PaulFertser_> mwester: uSD problems are almost non-existant. For most people uSD works as is, for some lowering the frequency and/or increasing drive strength is needed.
Feb 18 19:55:04 <[df]> I'm not 100% convinced this happened from gta01 -> gta02 though
Feb 18 19:55:13 <mwester> "For most people"   <---- that is the definition of "unstable"  :D  I rest my case.
Feb 18 19:55:21 <PaulFertser_> mwester: As to the WiFi -- that's not a kernel problem. And gta03 won't probably have wifi at all, btw ;)
Feb 18 19:56:00 <mwester> PaulFertser_:  Again, you prove my point.  No WiFi means that there's no reason to expect that Om will continue to work to make it better.  Werner may choose to on his own time, but not Om.
Feb 18 19:56:53 <laen> They're thinking about a 3g chip in the 04 Oo.
Feb 18 19:56:53 <PaulFertser_> mwester: at least now they pay him and what is important is that he's already managed to convince atheros that there're indeed bugs in firmware.
Feb 18 19:57:08 <mwester> [df]:  A lot of people have noted that the design of the gta03 is more similar to the gta01
Feb 18 19:57:41 <[df]> mwester: well I guess that means they learnt *something* from the gta02... ?
Feb 18 19:57:56 <mwester> One would think so. :)  
Feb 18 19:58:28 <PaulFertser_> As far as i understood they aim to reduce complexity to have less bugs and to make something more attractive "for the masses".
Feb 18 19:58:37 <mwester> At least *someone* at OM learned something -- other ex-employees knew that the glamo was a disaster long before, and tried to tell Om.
Feb 18 19:59:59 <PaulFertser_> mwester: if i compare level of vendor support for some iPAQ or HTC to that of OM i think we should be mad happy with what we have. 
Feb 18 20:00:18 <mwester> I don't accept that logic.
Feb 18 20:02:09 <mwester> OM claimed to be something more than compaq or HTC.  People purchased product based on that promise.  The community invested thousands of free hours of effort based on that promise.  Now we find that they cannot deliver.  Of course we can unhappy about it.
Feb 18 20:02:28 <PaulFertser_> Many vendor-unsupported ports were quite successful. They gathered a healthy community around, wrote decent kernel patches, pushed upstream, etc. What we have is bunch of clueless end-users who never seen backtrace. Why not many community hackers are involved is beyond my understanding.
Feb 18 20:04:10 <mwester> PaulFertser_:  I think you have not considered enough -- if you think about it, you will easily see why the "cream of the crop" of developers wish to have no association with this project.  Start by reading Harald's blog entries on the subject ;)
Feb 18 20:05:01 <mwester> There are a number of other very prominent figures who were watching early on, some of whom have gta01 pre-production units -- they also have blogged and commented in IRC on why they have gone off to do something else.
Feb 18 20:05:06 <mwester> Ask Raster, for example.
Feb 18 20:05:16 <mwester> Or ask why XorA is no longer associated.
Feb 18 20:05:20 <mwester> They will all tell you.
Feb 18 20:05:26 <mreh> are they selling these things cheap to developers?
Feb 18 20:05:32 <mwester> Not any more.
Feb 18 20:05:37 <mreh> the neo freerunner that is
Feb 18 20:05:59 <mmontour> It's not hard to find reasons why community hackers are not involved. Suddenly shitcanning a project and switching to a completely different framework (e.g. ASU, or uboot/Qi) is part of it.
Feb 18 20:06:25 <PaulFertser_> mwester: it's strange to see how stupid management issues at OM can easily alienate the community while no vendor support at all doesn't.
Feb 18 20:06:52 <PaulFertser_> mmontour: strong community can fork anything they like if it's abandoned "mainline"
Feb 18 20:06:52 <mwester> PaulFertser_:  I agree!
Feb 18 20:07:17 <mwester> PaulFertser_:  I think it is the difference between *no* communication, and not being told the truth.
Feb 18 20:08:44 <mwester> For example, Linksys never made any commitments to the community at all -- so there were no expectations of support from them or assistance, or a working kernel -- it's all a matter of expectations.  Openmoko sold a vision (if you ever read or saw any of Sean's speeches), and the vision had high expectations -- and they could not deliver on them.
Feb 18 20:08:45 <PaulFertser_> mwester: yes. But if one asks the developers (even if they work for OM), they give the answers. OM lacks proper communication, but you can ask devs directly.
Feb 18 20:08:46 <[df]> I guess compaq etc don't *need* a community of developers, whereas OM does
Feb 18 20:08:46 <mmontour> The build system is another barrier. Today for the first time in months I managed to complete a fso-unstable build, and even then I had to hand-edit the perl-native bitbake recipe.
Feb 18 20:09:01 <Serdar> hmhow's flashing uboot?
Feb 18 20:09:32 <mreh> I went to look on the FAQ page to answer a simple question, however I couldn't find the answer to: "Can i use this as a phone in the UK?"
Feb 18 20:09:38 <PaulFertser_> mmontour: OE is arcane, true. But rwhitby had working public config for months!
Feb 18 20:09:42 * mwester thinks [df]  has a very good observation; the Linksys WRT54G at least ran a kernel and was stable when the hackers began working on it.
Feb 18 20:10:31 <Serdar> there is no uboot.bin but a and_up_u-boot.bin is that equal?
Feb 18 20:10:36 <PaulFertser_> mwester: if a hacker trusts a manager (Sean), that means the hacker is dead wrong. :)
Feb 18 20:10:41 <mmontour> (afk - lunch)
Feb 18 20:10:59 <mwester> PaulFertser_:  that is true!  But Sean is also a very very good salesman.
Feb 18 20:11:00 <PaulFertser_> Serdar: grab the latest u-boot from http://people.openmoko.org/andy
Feb 18 20:12:01 <Serdar> PaulFertser_, what is this andy-tracking stuffß
Feb 18 20:12:08 <PaulFertser_> mwester: You say that hackers had some expectations. I wonder why did they trusted Sean's speaches. "Show me the code" is the universal rule.
Feb 18 20:12:27 <lindi-> mwester: but it still uses non-free wifi driver?
Feb 18 20:12:35 <mwester> PaulFertser_:  And they left as soon as they saw the code ;)
Feb 18 20:12:49 <PaulFertser_> Serdar: andy-tracking is a kernel branch where the development is going.
Feb 18 20:13:28 <Serdar> [   ] uImage-moredrivers-GTA02_stable-b749274fadec33a6.bin        07-Feb-2009 20:17  2.3M   I should use this right?
Feb 18 20:13:52 <PaulFertser_> Serdar: it depends. What distro are you going to use?
Feb 18 20:14:03 <Serdar> om2008.12
Feb 18 20:14:22 <Serdar> better to say I want to try it out
Feb 18 20:14:36 <PaulFertser_> Serdar: then i don't care. I know that any andy-tracking (that means .28 and .29) kernels are unsupported by this abandoned distro.
Feb 18 20:14:45 <Serdar> I want also test qtextended to see which one I like most
Feb 18 20:15:00 <PaulFertser_> Serdar: you'll like most a Nokia cellphone
Feb 18 20:15:11 <Serdar> hm?
Feb 18 20:16:40 <Serdar> om2008.12 is the latest from openmoko.org, wha it should be abandoned?
Feb 18 20:16:57 <PaulFertser_> mwester: the hardware is not _that_ bad. The schem is available, most of the datasheets, etc. And overall project state is not _that_ bad. OM sometimes acts offensive to the hacker community, i agree. But it's OM-the-company, not the developers themselves. I see no reason why all real hackers are feeling that alienated.
Feb 18 20:18:01 <PaulFertser_> Serdar: because it's crap. That's why OM-the-company abandoned it. Their managers did a bad job at managing and choosed a stupid way. They failed, now OM2008.x is all that's left from that. AFAIK.
Feb 18 20:18:44 <Serdar> hm and which one is prefered now?
Feb 18 20:19:01 <PaulFertser_> Serdar: by whom? End-users? Then SHR unstable.
Feb 18 20:20:43 <Serdar> I want to use phone and want to be able to use C/C++ maybe some other languages like java or ruby
Feb 18 20:20:52 <lindi-> debian
Feb 18 20:20:52 <mwester> PaulFertser_:  Well...  Ok, I guess I will say that parts of the hardware are not too bad.  But let's consider the echo, and gsm buzz, the poor audio response -- YOU have fixed that yourself, but there are few others in the community who can solder and cut up circuits themselves, and Sean's vision speeches did not make it sound as if the hardware would require SMD soldering skills in order to make it work as a telephone.
Feb 18 20:20:54 <PaulFertser_> mwester: you know, i'm an end-user. But I don't feel _that_ bad about OM hardware (which is crap, but a known crap, that can be workarounded) and about FSO. Also i'm satisfied enough with the kernel and i think like 80% will be satisfied too.
Feb 18 20:22:20 <PaulFertser_> mwester: the echo is due to stupid calypso, and that is workarounded now with the magic command. The buzz is a major hardware fuck up, i agree; though can be fixed in any repair workshop relatively easily.
Feb 18 20:22:55 <PaulFertser_> Serdar: yes, i agree, Debian
Feb 18 20:22:58 <mwester> PaulFertser_:  You'll notice that I'm still around -- as disapointed as I am in Om and everything they touch, I still believe in the idea of a totally open phone.  And as  bad as it is, Om is all we have.  The difference is that unlike many others, I do not belive that I have to remain silent about the problems, just because Openmoko is marginally better than the other venders.
Feb 18 20:23:27 <PaulFertser_> Who believes he should be silent about the problems?
Feb 18 20:23:56 <mwester> Ask the openmoko fanboys on the mailing lists ;)  Just post a problem, and they'll tell you to shut up.
Feb 18 20:24:00 <mwester> Or go buy a nokia.
Feb 18 20:24:47 <PaulFertser_> Openmoko fanboys are clueless users attracted by the Sean's PR. I don't care about them much.
Feb 18 20:25:11 <PaulFertser_> I only care about hackers.
Feb 18 20:25:28 <leinir> There's a lot of fanbois, yup, and they are... sort of annoying :)
Feb 18 20:25:32 <mwester> The complaints of even the most beginning of users are all valid.  Yet Om listened to none of them when they should have, and now it seems that they cannot listen to those voices (because they must get the gta03 out or die).
Feb 18 20:26:13 <badcloud> heyz
Feb 18 20:26:34 <PaulFertser_> mwester: It's like selling gentoo distribution to a beginner users. They will complain that nothing works, but no dev can help them. 
Feb 18 20:26:48 <Dave> badcloud o/
Feb 18 20:26:54 <badcloud> how's it, Dave>
Feb 18 20:26:56 <badcloud> ?
Feb 18 20:27:00 <mwester> True.  But that doesn't meant their complaints are invalid.  Just that gentoo was mis-represented to them.
Feb 18 20:27:10 <Defiant-> PaulFertser_: I thing its quite fun
Feb 18 20:27:26 <Dave> sucky :P
Feb 18 20:27:26 <Slaxxer> aw is there  a current andy-tracking jffs2 file anywhere?
Feb 18 20:27:33 * mwester wonders if Dave actually has any working GTA02's left.
Feb 18 20:27:39 <Dave> :(
Feb 18 20:27:47 <Dave> Wow, that hurt.
Feb 18 20:27:53 <PaulFertser_> mwester: it was, but do you think that all the hacker should be so offended that beginner users were screwed that they all will want to leave?
Feb 18 20:28:12 <badcloud> anyone know whether or not contacts are saved to the sim card in the telephony stack (qtopia), 2008.12?
Feb 18 20:28:23 <badcloud> ...or how to set that it does?
Feb 18 20:28:26 <badcloud> *will
Feb 18 20:28:28 <mwester> Goodness no.  That's why I pointed you to the blogs from the highly-respected developers -- they published their own reasons.
Feb 18 20:28:29 <PaulFertser_> badcloud: i heard it uses sqlite
Feb 18 20:28:36 <badcloud> ok
Feb 18 20:28:54 <mwester> PaulFertser_:  did you ever read Harald's comments?  And I expect you've spoken with Raster...
Feb 18 20:28:56 <badcloud> I might just pop the sim into my old phone and check
Feb 18 20:29:14 <PaulFertser_> mwester: And still Raster does a lot for OM community.
Feb 18 20:29:34 <mwester> Indirectly.  So does Harald - indirectly.
Feb 18 20:29:37 <PaulFertser_> mwester: no, i didn't read Harald comments :(
Feb 18 20:30:00 <badcloud> but I figured asking here first might save me some time
Feb 18 20:30:24 <PaulFertser_> badcloud: there're some scripts on the wiki to import/export contacts from qtopia
Feb 18 20:30:41 <mwester> But anyway, you might find it amusing that I _am_ patching qt extended to work with the 2.6.28 kernel...
Feb 18 20:30:45 <badcloud> thanks, I'll check
Feb 18 20:31:03 <PaulFertser_> mwester: yes, i can't understand why any hacker will want to have a working qtopia, true.
Feb 18 20:32:04 <Dave> :P
Feb 18 20:32:05 <PaulFertser_> mwester: but i understand that everyone can have his fun however he likes. (/me looking at ReactOS guys)
Feb 18 20:32:12 <Dave> Because they're a crazy hacker, duh :p
Feb 18 20:32:17 <mwester> PaulFertser_:  Having looked more closely at Android, I am more frighted than ever of Android.  SHR seems to not be progressing so quickly.  And I've always found Qtopia/QT Extended to be a compromise that is somewhat acceptable to me.
Feb 18 20:32:18 <Dave> and they're dirty and naughty :D
Feb 18 20:32:36 <Dave> right
Feb 18 20:33:24 <mwester> I just find FSO is too slow; can't have my phone start ringing AFTER the other party has already hung up!  And the broken 5.0 milestone baseline was a dissapointment in so many ways (although that is an OE problem, not an FSO issue).
Feb 18 20:33:25 <PaulFertser_> mwester: but what does it work for? Telephony? That's what "dumb cellphones" are for. As to having a portable GNU/Linux PDA, qtopia doesn't cut it.
Feb 18 20:33:58 <mwester> PaulFertser_:  The alternative is that I have nearly $1000 worth of *USELESS* hardware on my desk?
Feb 18 20:34:13 <[df]> mwester: *frightened* of android?
Feb 18 20:34:16 <mwester> If it can do nothing more than a dumb cellphone, then it is better than nothing at all.
Feb 18 20:34:30 <vininim> [df]: JAVA
Feb 18 20:34:33 <mwester> [df]:  every time you turn around, something is closed or proprietary.
Feb 18 20:34:34 <vininim> ;)
Feb 18 20:34:37 <Dave> GAH
Feb 18 20:34:46 <PaulFertser_> mwester: to be honest, i'm using what's basically FSO ms5 for like a month and i managed to answer the calls before they were hung up. So it's slow, but not catastrophically.
Feb 18 20:35:08 <PaulFertser_> mwester: Will you be happy if this $1000 worth of hardware will become a dumb cellphone?
Feb 18 20:35:09 <laen> So anyone who tried koolu's beta3 yet?
Feb 18 20:35:15 <Dave> LAEN
Feb 18 20:35:16 <vininim> qtopia as the best I got as far as telephony go, but then I wanted to mess with GPS and media playing...
Feb 18 20:35:17 <[df]> mwester: but that can't really be a threat to OM can it?
Feb 18 20:35:19 <lindi-> mwester: how large latency do you measure?
Feb 18 20:35:19 <laen> DAVE
Feb 18 20:35:19 <mwester> PaulFertser_:  Happier than I am now.
Feb 18 20:35:24 <laen> \o/
Feb 18 20:35:28 <mwester> [df]:  it is the salvation of OM
Feb 18 20:35:29 <Dave> ^_^
Feb 18 20:35:47 <[df]> ah, so you think OM (the company) will support it?
Feb 18 20:36:07 <mwester> lindi-:  I didn't measure it -- it rang, I tried to pick it up -- nobody there, then wife called on other phone and complained that it rang and rang and went to voicemail.
Feb 18 20:36:16 <PaulFertser_> mwester: hm, i thought having a hardware for messing with kernel and debian etc is more fun than having a dumb cell phone.
Feb 18 20:36:16 <mwester> [df]:  They must.
Feb 18 20:36:30 <mwester> PaulFertser_:  I have ... /me counts...
Feb 18 20:36:37 <lindi-> mwester: please try to reproduce it
Feb 18 20:37:27 <mwester> PaulFertser_:  5 NSLU2 systems, 2 DSM-G600 systems, 3 Treo 650's, a pair of GTA01s, and a pair of GTA02s -- plus several intel laptops, a 1U server, and a few desktop/tower systems.
Feb 18 20:37:49 <mwester> PaulFertser_:  that's 14 ARM systems that can run Debian.
Feb 18 20:37:51 <PaulFertser_> mwester: then why did you need a GTA0x at all for?
Feb 18 20:37:51 <Dave> :D
Feb 18 20:37:59 <Dave> no omap3? :(
Feb 18 20:38:04 <PaulFertser_> s/why/what/
Feb 18 20:38:04 <apt> PaulFertser_ meant: mwester: then what did you need a GTA0x at all for?
Feb 18 20:38:16 <mwester> PaulFertser_:  :)  To be a replacement for my old Treo650 as a smartphone.  Which it cannot do.
Feb 18 20:39:04 <mwester> It's now two years since I heard about Openmoko -- and my Treo650 was old then.  Now my Treo650 is even older, but is STILL a far superior smartphone than anything running on a GTA0x!
Feb 18 20:39:23 <toggles_w> mwester: don't be jealous!
Feb 18 20:39:25 <PaulFertser_> mwester: honestly, i can't understand all that fuss about smartphones. If i needed a very reliable phone functionality, i'd carried a cell phone with me.
Feb 18 20:40:11 <lindi-> mwester: why don't you run the treo650 software on fr?
Feb 18 20:40:14 <Dave> mwester ,yeah, I'm in the same boat there
Feb 18 20:40:14 <PaulFertser_> BTW, i can't on Earth understand why iPAQ hx4700 was discontinued. Looks like it's an amazingly decent PDA even nowadays.
Feb 18 20:40:16 <mwester> PaulFertser_:  That's part of where you have an "impedance mismatch" with most of the community -- they all expect it to work as a phone; you think of it as a Nokia Tablet sort of device, that just happens to have a GSM attached to it.
Feb 18 20:40:19 <vininim> PaulFertser_: tell OpenMoko Co. to market FreeRunner as a mini computer with GSM radio then
Feb 18 20:40:24 <Gnutoo> mwester, why is the treo650 superior? what does it run? angstrom? debian?
Feb 18 20:40:28 <Dave> I got a hold of six z72's about a year after OM
Feb 18 20:40:38 <PaulFertser_> vininim: i don't care about marketing
Feb 18 20:40:46 <Dave> (they use identical hardware to the t650)
Feb 18 20:40:58 <Dave> and they run e/illume faster and better :|
Feb 18 20:41:10 <PaulFertser_> I thought that what this device is was obvious from the specs.
Feb 18 20:41:33 <vininim> a smartphone
Feb 18 20:41:41 <PaulFertser_> mwester: don't forget that most of the community can hardly use iptables.
Feb 18 20:41:44 <vininim> yeah, everyone thought that =)
Feb 18 20:41:57 <lindi-> PaulFertser_: they should a have a quiz you have to complete before ordering
Feb 18 20:41:58 <[df]> in fairness the gta02 is a rather decent linux pda if running debian
Feb 18 20:42:06 <PaulFertser_> lindi-: why not?
Feb 18 20:42:07 <mwester> PaulFertser_:  why should iptables be a prerequisite for using a PDA or even any Linux system?
Feb 18 20:42:17 <lindi-> PaulFertser_: and i'm not joking, it might really be good idea
Feb 18 20:42:27 <toggles_w> [df]: email? calander? or just contacts?
Feb 18 20:42:45 * mwester thinks this conversation is getting rather silly, with quizzes and technical criteria...
Feb 18 20:42:50 <PaulFertser_> lindi-: we have a repair forum that requires to answer several simple questions about electrotechnics before registering. No big deal for me.
Feb 18 20:42:50 <[df]> well it can run mutt and cal fine right?
Feb 18 20:43:22 <lindi-> mwester: but it could be a test of whether the people are capable of reading the man page :)
Feb 18 20:43:32 <vininim> [df]: ;), but the input method is kind of annoying
Feb 18 20:44:10 <mwester> lindi-:  the hallmark of good software design is that it does not require one to read the manual in order to make the device perform it's basic function.
Feb 18 20:44:11 <[df]> true
Feb 18 20:44:17 <toggles_w> exactly, how the hell do you type?
Feb 18 20:44:36 <Defiant-> lindi-: as long as you don't ask them how to use openssl - that would be torture :P
Feb 18 20:44:45 <lindi-> mwester: yep but that is not quite reality with current phone software :)
Feb 18 20:44:52 <mwester> Really?
Feb 18 20:45:12 <mwester> I can take a 6-year old child into any cell phone store, and they can dial a call on any of the phones in the place...
Feb 18 20:45:22 <mwester> They can't do that on an Om phone.
Feb 18 20:45:28 <lindi-> mwester: yes that's what i mean
Feb 18 20:45:32 <vininim> it's like that guy wanting to use emacs on freerunner: unless he implements some input stuff(accel, ts scribing, speech recognition) you lose the power emacs give you with a keyboard
Feb 18 20:45:47 <mwester> Ah, I misunderstood you lindi- :)
Feb 18 20:46:25 <lindi-> mwester: since that is the current situation we should prevent people from accidentally buying the phone if they can't even pass the quiz :)
Feb 18 20:46:38 <PaulFertser_> mwester: i don't agree. Why not read manual first? Not reading manual is a disgusting custom imho.
Feb 18 20:46:59 * [df] doesn't tend to read the manual for consumer electronics
Feb 18 20:47:16 <PaulFertser_> [df]: sure, they're useless as they're not intended to be read by hackers
Feb 18 20:47:28 <mwester> PaulFertser_:  do you read the back of the cereal box in which your breakfast came, in order to see if there is some difference in the brand you purchased today?
Feb 18 20:48:25 <vininim> heh, openmoko is a linux device, wouldn't that mean reading all man pages? =X
Feb 18 20:48:30 <mwester> We are not speaking about using the keyboard even; I'm just taliing about powering on the neo, and placing a phone call -- something that every child learns to do usually before they go to schoool.
Feb 18 20:48:36 <PaulFertser_> mwester: i don't want a simple device with simple functions anyway. 
Feb 18 20:49:20 <PaulFertser_> mwester: tell any 6-year old to use mplayer. And yet it's probably the best player in existance.
Feb 18 20:49:49 <vininim> that's why you have guis for mplayer core
Feb 18 20:49:51 <mwester> PaulFertser_:  I want a device that follows the accepted paradigms for common operations: a red button to power on and end the call, a green one to dial, etc.  I expect the same from the linux beneath -- I type "ls" and depress the enter key to enter a command.   Why should I have to learn a totally different way?
Feb 18 20:49:53 <vininim> gnome mplayer is a non-brainer
Feb 18 20:50:20 <mwester> And I also do not speak of music players.
Feb 18 20:50:28 <PaulFertser_> mwester: i consider mass-accepted paradigms a disaster. Too inefficient.
Feb 18 20:50:35 <mwester> Although it is the case here, that every six year old child can work an iPod.
Feb 18 20:50:45 <badcloud> quick question: I figured out how to switch the keyboard dictionary in om 2008.12, but word completion is still kind of active (can't enter one character at a time, plus there are the unnecessary spaces it inserts)
Feb 18 20:51:05 <badcloud> how do I switch from this word completion method to character by character?
Feb 18 20:51:06 <mwester> PaulFertser_:  you use a dvorak keyboard, then, I presume -- once again, you impress your very specific view of the world on everyone else!
Feb 18 20:51:12 <Dave> muuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuons
Feb 18 20:51:13 <PaulFertser_> mwester: i tried iPod once and it was weird. Moreover it doesn't do what i want anyway. Rockbox is so much better.
Feb 18 20:51:19 <vininim> also, i believe simple functions are kind of like waypoints. I don't expect OM to be the ubiquitous computing device with all nitfy GPS/Accel/IA stuff if it can't handle telephony and PIM.
Feb 18 20:51:31 <Dave> hahaha Paul, have you ever seen a Zune/
Feb 18 20:51:46 <mwester> PaulFertser_:  Ok.  So let's assume that the whole world switched to rocks box.   Now what?
Feb 18 20:51:55 <PaulFertser_> Dave: only on pictures of epic leap year fail :)
Feb 18 20:52:05 <mwester> How did that make dialing an openmoko phone any easier?
Feb 18 20:52:10 <Dave> :D
Feb 18 20:52:13 <Dave> oho man
Feb 18 20:52:19 <Dave> imagine if the Zune could dial...
Feb 18 20:52:34 <mwester> Dave:  it would only call home to microsoft.
Feb 18 20:52:54 <vininim> no problem, in six months home wouldn't be available anyway =D
Feb 18 20:53:04 * eolson . o O ( it already calls home )
Feb 18 20:53:14 <PaulFertser_> mwester: my point is that the paradigms accepted by masses are usually inefficient and therefore shouldn't be implemented.
Feb 18 20:53:15 <mwester> yep, just like the iPod...
Feb 18 20:54:06 <mwester> PaulFertser_:  ok.  So your argument is that the Openmoko design is completly ok, because the way all other telephones work is wrong.  I guess that's one opinion to have...  I'm afraid I can't accept that as valid, but that's ok..
Feb 18 20:55:16 <PaulFertser_> mwester: I don't know anything "Openmoko design". I know a bit about how the kernel works and how FSO works. Neither of which is openmoko design. And i don't think anyone should expect much more from FR atm.
Feb 18 20:55:20 <mwester> Heck, let's rethink our numbering system, then.   base 10 is silly, and beyond that it discriminates against children born with 6 fingers on a hand.  We should use base 2.  Or an arbitrary base, entered by the user of any device when they first set it up.  :D
Feb 18 20:55:51 <mwester> My point is that at some point we must accept certain paradigms as they are.
Feb 18 20:56:21 <PaulFertser_> So? Let hackers build the foundations: the kernel, the framework. Don't complain about end-user apps yet.
Feb 18 20:56:36 <PaulFertser_> After the foundations are ready, all kind of apps become possible.
Feb 18 20:56:41 <laen> The GTA02 is the most accepted phone to beat people up. Done.
Feb 18 20:56:51 <mwester> (expectations) -- after two years, I *DO* expect more from Om than a barely-functional kernel on broken hardware. 
Feb 18 20:56:54 <lindi-> PaulFertser_: indeed, and i'd restrict that to only ogsmd but that is just me :)
Feb 18 20:57:46 * laen agress with lindi- (as usual).
Feb 18 20:58:01 <PaulFertser_> mwester: i hoped for that too, but what does it prove? That OM-the-company sucks? I didn't argue on that one.
Feb 18 20:58:18 <Slaxxer> still under development!!?::))]
Feb 18 21:00:10 <Slaxxer> how long did microsucks use the hacking community to fix their stuff After it was released to the public?
Feb 18 21:00:11 <mwester> Anyway, this was a fascinating and fun lunch-time discussion!   I agree that it changes nothing; we still need to make this work and OM-the-company still sucks.   But now I must go back to work... :D
Feb 18 21:00:48 <Slaxxer> using u guys to finish makes perfect sence
Feb 18 21:01:01 <PaulFertser_> Good luck with your work :) I hope managers at your work make more sense than OM's :)
Feb 18 21:01:21 <Slaxxer> simply because u guys are perfectionists an want it righ
Feb 18 21:01:22 <vininim> tbh, I think OM should go the manufacture way and let redistributors like koolu deal with software
Feb 18 21:01:29 <Slaxxer> t
Feb 18 21:02:16 <Slaxxer> at least microsoft wont make money off u guys this way
Feb 18 21:03:27 <Slaxxer> and if u can come up with a hardware list(ghood)   maybe somebody can pick up the ball   an have better hardware
Feb 18 21:04:05 <Slaxxer> to put the fruits of your labor to very good use
Feb 18 21:04:23 <lindi-> vininim: it's not easy for somebody else to write the kernel, X and ogsmd
Feb 18 21:04:36 <lindi-> vininim: you need rock-solid hardware knowledge of the specific design
Feb 18 21:04:48 <lindi-> vininim: but phone UIs can be written by other people
Feb 18 21:05:34 <PaulFertser_> Slaxxer: i think Raster will come with some cool hardware soon :) That's the man i trust.
Feb 18 21:06:43 <Slaxxer> that would be great
Feb 18 21:07:00 <vininim> lindi-: i'll accept that as a challenge when GTA03 comes out =P
Feb 18 21:07:25 <lindi-> vininim: that should get rid of glamo issues and it should have less buggy gsm chip
Feb 18 21:07:36 <lindi-> vininim: but it won't help with other tricky kernel stuff
Feb 18 21:08:11 <vininim> i'm more impressed by the marketed time to first fix of the new gps chip
Feb 18 21:08:31 <vininim> and yes, the soc seems cool
Feb 18 21:09:01 <lindi-> vininim: i'm very very sceptical about new hardware being cool. sorry but i'm just a pessimist on that :P
Feb 18 21:09:09 <vininim> hehehe
Feb 18 21:09:16 <lindi-> vininim: (our new quadcore system with 8GB ram has been "softlockup"'ing three times this week)
Feb 18 21:10:36 <Slaxxer> anybody got the todays shr?
Feb 18 21:10:44 <badcloud> I was thinking of flashing it
Feb 18 21:10:54 <badcloud> if I can't rig om's stupid keyboard
Feb 18 21:11:16 <Slaxxer> badcloud did u try the 2008.12 from bytestore?
Feb 18 21:11:19 <badcloud> doesn't anyone know how to shut autocomplete off?
Feb 18 21:11:28 <badcloud> bytestore?
Feb 18 21:12:16 <badcloud> google's not giving me anything
Feb 18 21:12:50 * eolson reads the lunchtime discussion late.  mwester, what's left for it to replace your treo650?  Are faster answering and a better dialing UI the main things?
Feb 18 21:13:18 <badcloud> slaxxin, can you point me to a working link?
Feb 18 21:13:23 <slaxxin> hold
Feb 18 21:13:28 <badcloud> sure
Feb 18 21:13:33 <docscrutinizer2> vininim: recent design no gps :-/
Feb 18 21:13:43 <slaxxin> http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/User:Bytestore
Feb 18 21:13:44 <vininim> wat
Feb 18 21:14:16 <badcloud> also, there seems to be an issue with sms's. I went all day without getting 3
Feb 18 21:14:25 <slaxxin> works with stable mwester kernel
Feb 18 21:14:34 <badcloud> restarted the device, and there they were!
Feb 18 21:14:36 <vininim> docscrutinizer2: why?
Feb 18 21:14:52 <vininim> battery life?
Feb 18 21:14:57 <slaxxin> i recommend it
Feb 18 21:15:10 <badcloud> I'll give it a shot
Feb 18 21:15:15 <docscrutinizer2> dunno which nda i just violated, but for the "why" ask Sean
Feb 18 21:15:31 <vininim> :)
Feb 18 21:15:31 <slaxxin> if no sound use a different kernel
Feb 18 21:16:13 <slaxxin> i had to erase some foreign phone #'s  :)
Feb 18 21:16:18 <vininim> i'm sure someone will spike the rumours and uproar in the ml but not me doing it this time =P
Feb 18 21:17:20 <badcloud> slaxxin, bootloader?
Feb 18 21:17:42 <PaulFertser_> docscrutinizer2: but nobody's really sure on the final design and features of GTA03, so what you say can be considered rumors anyway ;)
Feb 18 21:19:00 <vininim> ``someone said'' it had to do with patents and legal settlements, burn Apple, Google and Microsoft! :)
Feb 18 21:19:14 <docscrutinizer2> yup, I'm just talking about what I know for sure (the first "NDA" rule) and that is: *recent* design is like this. Doen't mean it'll not change another 20 times
Feb 18 21:20:57 <docscrutinizer2> vininim: (pat.) not to my knowledge
Feb 18 21:24:23 <badcloud> anyone know where bytestore's image is? (http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/User:Bytestore doesn't have it)
Feb 18 21:26:34 <laen> Oh well.
Feb 18 21:27:29 <badcloud> crap to this, I'm going to try the new shr image
Feb 18 21:28:52 <slaxxin> its downloading
Feb 18 21:29:10 <slaxxin> is it slow or not working?
Feb 18 21:29:25 <badcloud> I downloaded mine yesterday
Feb 18 21:29:40 <Dave> :D
Feb 18 21:30:07 <slaxxin> thats just funny
Feb 18 21:30:43 <slaxxin> had no luck with sound on shr the klast couple of times
Feb 18 21:47:39 <Slaxxer> did u use the feb 8 shr kernel or andys tracking?
Feb 18 21:48:05 <badcloud> I'm trying feb8 now
Feb 18 21:48:13 <slaxxin> sound wwork?
Feb 18 21:48:19 <badcloud> one second
Feb 18 21:48:39 <badcloud> x is loading...
Feb 18 21:49:08 <slaxxin> im using mwesters stable
Feb 18 21:49:17 <badcloud> ah, good old segfaulting illume...
Feb 18 21:49:19 <badcloud> I'm home
Feb 18 21:49:28 <slaxxin> damm98yt
Feb 18 21:50:10 <slaxxin> i seem to always go back to that bytestore image
Feb 18 21:51:09 <slaxxin> at least all the icons are there
Feb 18 21:51:26 <badcloud> no sound
Feb 18 21:51:36 <badcloud> I'll flash andy
Feb 18 21:51:36 <slaxxin> thats what i thought
Feb 18 21:51:44 <slaxxin> i have it up
Feb 18 21:52:29 <vininim> mm which uImage should I use for shr-unstable?
Feb 18 21:52:35 <slaxxin> i have sound
Feb 18 21:52:41 <vininim> nevermind
Feb 18 21:53:01 <badcloud> so mwester's works with sound and everything?
Feb 18 21:53:22 <slaxxin> well lets see
Feb 18 21:53:30 <badcloud> I'll give andy a shot in the meantime
Feb 18 21:53:52 <slaxxin> 9D50 is what i used
Feb 18 21:54:21 <slaxxin> 9d50 is the last 4  didgets
Feb 18 21:54:41 <slaxxin> ok i need to know
Feb 18 21:54:57 <slaxxin> u have a link?
Feb 18 21:55:55 <badcloud> for andy?
Feb 18 21:55:58 <badcloud> one sec
Feb 18 21:56:26 <badcloud> http://people.openmoko.org/andy/uImage-moredrivers-GTA02_andy-tracking-d1a9cf85c8608601.bin
Feb 18 21:56:55 <Slaxxer> well bad link
Feb 18 21:57:05 <badcloud> ?
Feb 18 21:57:16 <Slaxxer> no
Feb 18 21:57:17 <badcloud> http://people.openmoko.org/andy/
Feb 18 21:58:08 <rhkfin> bytestore, trevino, mwester, kustomizer, om, fso, hackable, debian, gentoo, android, shr, FDOM, QTe, FyP, NeoPwn, OpenWRT, RunningBear, Poky, Sesca ample etc.. No need to tell you don't have choices :)
Feb 18 21:58:22 <rhkfin> (no, they're not all distros .)
Feb 18 21:59:02 <slaxxin> just mods
Feb 18 21:59:29 <lindi-> rhkfin: i think you need ":" somewhere in that list :)
Feb 18 22:00:59 <rhkfin> lindi-: right :)
Feb 18 22:03:08 <badcloud> qi+andy+latest unstable shr light
Feb 18 22:03:11 <badcloud> SOUND
Feb 18 22:03:19 <badcloud> (=)
Feb 18 22:03:39 <Slaxxer> any segfaults?
Feb 18 22:03:49 <badcloud> not yet ;)
Feb 18 22:04:24 <badcloud> I just avoid using the wrench
Feb 18 22:04:28 <badcloud> and illume settings
Feb 18 22:05:12 <Slaxxer> ::)0))
Feb 18 22:05:12 <badcloud> only drawback (only?) is that I never know who the $%^&U sends me sms's
Feb 18 22:05:29 <Slaxxer> yea thats ugly
Feb 18 22:05:44 <lindi-> badcloud: does shr run frameworkd?
Feb 18 22:06:18 <rhkfin> btw if someone of you have uploaded packages to opkg.org, make sure you can install it through the opkg.org repository. Many packages are missing the required information -> installation fails/segfaults/md5mismatches/...
Feb 18 22:06:43 <badcloud> fuck if I know...
Feb 18 22:07:05 <Slaxxer> lots of stuff worked on opkg   then    yesterday it wouldnt work for me
Feb 18 22:07:11 <badcloud> same for me
Feb 18 22:07:12 <badcloud> $%^&
Feb 18 22:07:22 <badcloud> minimo, scummvm, you name it
Feb 18 22:07:34 <Slaxxer> we may have an infiltraitor
Feb 18 22:07:49 <Slaxxer> killing our stuff
Feb 18 22:08:25 <rhkfin> Do you have problems if you install it with opkg install http://....?
Feb 18 22:08:39 <rhkfin> My experience is that it works a lot better than via the repo
Feb 18 22:09:04 <rhkfin> Check opkg.org/packages/Packages - many packages don't have complete information there -> fail?
Feb 18 22:09:09 <Slaxxer> i just copy/paste the box contents
Feb 18 22:09:33 <rhkfin> Right, that works a bit better
Feb 18 22:10:04 <rhkfin> The broken repository makes it frustrating to try to work on KUstomizer - some packages from opkg always fail..
Feb 18 22:11:07 <badcloud> I've had depends and md5sum errors both ways
Feb 18 22:11:13 <badcloud> repo and http
Feb 18 22:11:21 <badcloud> shr sucks in that way
Feb 18 22:11:34 <badcloud> om has been much more solid in the app department
Feb 18 22:11:37 <Slaxxer> pythm works:)
Feb 18 22:11:42 <badcloud> at least that
Feb 18 22:11:52 <Slaxxer> phone works
Feb 18 22:11:57 <badcloud> dillo
Feb 18 22:12:00 <Slaxxer> no segfaults
Feb 18 22:12:42 <rhkfin> badcloud: dillo SSL support doesn't seem to work, I think.
Feb 18 22:12:46 <Slaxxer> pythm just quit
Feb 18 22:13:41 <rhkfin> pythm has some python 2.5 / python 2.6 issues AFAIK
Feb 18 22:15:01 <laen> Just tried koolu's beta3, can't say it's something you can work with yet.
Feb 18 22:15:19 <badcloud> crap
Feb 18 22:15:29 <rhkfin> now pythm crashes on ImportError: No module named mutagen.easyid3
Feb 18 22:15:33 <Slaxxer> did u get the keyboard to work?
Feb 18 22:15:39 <rhkfin> I've installed mutagen..
Feb 18 22:16:36 <laen> Me?
Feb 18 22:18:12 <laen> So anyone got some experience with Pyneo?
Feb 18 22:18:44 <rhkfin> oh right, I forgot koolu from my list..
Feb 18 22:18:47 <rhkfin> :)
Feb 18 22:18:47 <slaxxin> pythm is playing music but is closed
Feb 18 22:19:19 <rhkfin> slaxxin: closed as in no code available or closed as program not running?
Feb 18 22:21:10 <docscrutinizer2> slaxxin: playing sound out of buffer (or even by background process) while main app exited isn't completely unknown
Feb 18 22:21:48 <slaxxin> ok
Feb 18 22:21:52 <vininim> qi works flawless with shr, right?
Feb 18 22:21:55 <agg1n> Weiss: i installed xf86-video-glamo on my freerunner. do i have to tell x to use it or something like that?
Feb 18 22:21:58 <slaxxin> well
Feb 18 22:22:03 <vininim> (unstable kernel)
Feb 18 22:22:54 <vininim> slaxxin: I thought pythm wore a back-end to mpd or mplayer
Feb 18 22:22:54 <vininim> *was
Feb 18 22:23:18 <rhkfin> vininim: it is, or gstreamer (the current default, I think)
Feb 18 22:23:38 <vininim> it's possibly mpd daemon running then
Feb 18 22:23:50 <docscrutinizer2> slaxxin: more common situation though is main win of app closed but process fails to stop soundcard, thus hanging on in kinda zombie process
Feb 18 22:24:25 <slaxxin> i think thats wats happining
Feb 18 22:24:35 <Weiss> agg1n: well done. edit /etc/X11/xorg.conf and add a line to the device section for the graphics card: Driver "glamo"
Feb 18 22:24:38 <docscrutinizer2> ps should reveal
Feb 18 22:25:13 <docscrutinizer2> kill -9 should do
Feb 18 22:25:53 <agg1n> Weiss: there is no xorg.conf :/
Feb 18 22:26:01 <Sharwin_F> I get a bitbake error "ERROR: Please set the 'PERSISTENT_DIR' or 'CACHE' variable."
Feb 18 22:26:14 <Sharwin_F> I've set it as told in the wiki of oe
Feb 18 22:26:20 <Sharwin_F> any ideas?
Feb 18 22:26:37 <Sharwin_F> what's CACHE used for? a tmp dir to build?
Feb 18 22:26:52 <Weiss> agg1n: then create one :) - hang on, i'll put a template up
Feb 18 22:27:00 <Sharwin_F> should I set it to any specific dir?
Feb 18 22:27:13 <vininim> wiki information should be related to what is shipped with freerunner? Because several listed FreeRunner issues are solved in 2008.12
Feb 18 22:27:49 <slaxxin> yes they are
Feb 18 22:28:28 <docscrutinizer2> vininim: so mark them like this when they come across your way ;-)
Feb 18 22:28:42 <Weiss> agg1n: http://www.bitwiz.org.uk/xorg.conf (probably want to comment out 'Load "dri"' and 'Load "glx"' and the AIGLX line)
Feb 18 22:29:55 <laen> Last try for the day, Pyneo, epydial and zad versions.
Feb 18 22:30:38 <docscrutinizer2> vininim: a "solved in 2008.12 see: <pointer to trac, Ml, whatever>" might help a lot
Feb 18 22:31:02 <agg1n> Weiss: thanks for your help!
Feb 18 22:32:41 <rhkfin> btw does gta03 still ship with 2007.2?
Feb 18 22:32:50 <Slaxxer> lolol
Feb 18 22:32:51 <docscrutinizer2> lol
Feb 18 22:32:59 <Slaxxer> yup
Feb 18 22:33:08 <docscrutinizer2> typo of the day
Feb 18 22:34:21 <rhkfin> heh :)
Feb 18 22:34:23 <rhkfin> sorry :
Feb 18 22:34:24 <rhkfin> )
Feb 18 22:34:36 <rhkfin> (but who knows :)
Feb 18 22:35:06 <rhkfin> trying again: does gta02 still ship with 2007.2?
Feb 18 22:35:12 <docscrutinizer2> nah we actually have 2008.12 fab image
Feb 18 22:35:37 <rhkfin> ok
Feb 18 22:35:42 <rhkfin> good :)
Feb 18 22:35:49 <rhkfin> or ~good at least
Feb 18 22:36:04 <docscrutinizer2> will take some months to market though, I'd guess
Feb 18 22:36:13 <agg1n> Weiss: ok..may be a silly question, but what can i do to test the driver a little bit? :)
Feb 18 22:39:51 <docscrutinizer2> rhkfin: though I'm still not sure about them downgrading to 2008.09  due to gsmhandset.state file considered "nonfitting" - loool
Feb 18 22:40:17 <badcloud> anyone remember how to add opkg.org as a repo?
Feb 18 22:41:59 <rhkfin> badcloud: echo "src/gz opkgorg http://www.opkg.org/packages" > /etc/opkg/opkg-feed.conf
Feb 18 22:42:05 <rhkfin> docscrutinizer2: hmm.. ok :/
Feb 18 22:43:29 <badcloud> thanks, rhkfin
Feb 18 22:45:02 <kalden> Hello, I just got my Freerunner. Is it ok to update from OM2008.8 to 2008.12 or have I update to 2008.9 first ?
Feb 18 22:45:21 <SpeedEvil> flashing always takes you directly to a version
Feb 18 22:45:26 <SpeedEvil> no need for intermediate steps
Feb 18 22:45:47 <kalden> ok, thanks for your advice
Feb 18 22:46:42 <docscrutinizer2> kalden: emphasis on "flashing" though
Feb 18 22:46:51 <SpeedEvil> yeah
Feb 18 22:47:04 <SpeedEvil> 'opkg upgrade' won't work
Feb 18 22:47:16 <kalden> no that doesn't work
Feb 18 22:47:53 <kalden> I get errors when I do 'opkg update'
Feb 18 22:48:12 <SpeedEvil> you will
Feb 18 22:48:34 <SpeedEvil> Don't try upgrading that way.
Feb 18 22:49:27 <kalden> So flashing is the way to go ? from 2008.8 directly to 2008.12
Feb 18 22:49:48 <DocScrutinizer> yup
Feb 18 22:50:26 <kalden> Thanks
Feb 18 22:52:54 <kalden> Another problem is that my SIM isn't recognised. There seems to be a solution for that to...but it's rather risky : /
Feb 18 22:53:15 <rhkfin> kalden: first upgrade both kernel & rootfs 
Feb 18 22:53:22 <rhkfin> then see what happens with the SIM
Feb 18 22:53:32 <rhkfin> upgrade = flash..
Feb 18 22:53:50 <kalden> Ok, I'll do that first.
Feb 18 22:54:06 <kalden> Many thanks all of you.
Feb 18 22:54:28 <Weiss> agg1n: xperf -all is quite good :)
Feb 18 22:55:29 <DocScrutinizer> rhkfin: kalden: updating GSM-FW isn't that risky. It might be worth doing it prior to upgrading rootfs, as you need to reflash rootfs with a special "gsm-update rootfs" if you want to do GSM-update the correct and safe way
Feb 18 22:55:53 <Weiss> agg1n: x11perf even
Feb 18 22:57:13 <DocScrutinizer> kalden: see http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/GSM/Flashing
Feb 18 22:57:50 <DocScrutinizer> after that you can flash 2008.12 and _keep it_ ;-)
Feb 18 23:00:08 <kalden> Ah.. Ok. I didn't start yet. 
Feb 18 23:00:34 <rhkfin> DocScrutinizer: ok.. Is there a need for the gsm flashing, what does it fix?
Feb 18 23:00:50 <DocScrutinizer> #666
Feb 18 23:01:03 <DocScrutinizer> so called 3G-sim issue
Feb 18 23:01:09 <rhkfin> ah, okay..
Feb 18 23:01:35 <DocScrutinizer> moko11 even fixes some resume issue, as well as potential buffer overruns
Feb 18 23:02:31 <DocScrutinizer> moko11b1 is beta still, but I dare to recommend it neverheless, as we seen no problems with moko10 update, and neither we did with the moko11b1 yet
Feb 18 23:02:40 <vininim> oh noes, qi is trying to boot my sdcard
Feb 18 23:03:06 <vininim> (or it's slow, I don't see a kernel panic)
Feb 18 23:04:14 <vininim> maybe I should just chill out and wait the long first boot
Feb 18 23:06:34 <jucs> Hi
Feb 18 23:06:44 <jucs> Does anyone know how to get agps-gui for debian?
Feb 18 23:07:03 <vininim> i can has shr-unstable, it's nice
Feb 18 23:07:45 <chris_debian> agps-gui for debian?
Feb 18 23:09:50 <jucs> You know, this genius test application for om2007.2
Feb 18 23:09:58 <jucs> Which shoes all gps information
Feb 18 23:16:41 <SpeedEvil> cat
Feb 18 23:20:27 <badcloud> when are they going to make the phone stack in shr more practical??
Feb 18 23:30:27 <vininim> badcloud: there is some chicken-egg problem wrt to gui since shr is on top of fso framework
Feb 18 23:30:51 <vininim> not really chicken-egg, more like pipeline issue
Feb 18 23:32:55 <vininim> Package libpython2.6-1.0 (2.6.1-ml0) installed in root is up to date.
Feb 18 23:33:04 <vininim> * ERROR: Cannot satisfy the following dependencies for python-pyalsaaudio: *  libpython2.5-1.0 (>= 2.5.2) *
Feb 18 23:33:17 <vininim> wat
Feb 18 23:39:33 <laen> And i have given op on everything but debian again :)
Feb 18 23:42:56 <badcloud> as *soon* as I get the chance, I'm going debian on my uSD
Feb 18 23:43:26 <laen> Smart :)
Feb 18 23:43:42 <SpeedEvil> Sounds like a bad rap record badcloud.
Feb 18 23:43:46 <laen> No more problems with weird apps and stuff, simply a real OS on your moko and a full working Zhone.
Feb 18 23:44:21 <vininim> Zhone works fully on fso =P
Feb 18 23:47:28 <laen> I do hope to get the knowledge to create a toolchain and crosscompile gentoo for it, and then get frameworkd and zhone etc working on that.
Feb 18 23:47:37 <badcloud> how do you mean, speed?
Feb 18 23:47:41 <laen> And then provide a portage binhost.. but well.
Feb 18 23:48:08 <SpeedEvil> bad 'going debian on my uSD'
Feb 18 23:48:59 <badcloud> you mean debian doesn't run smoothly on the microsd?
Feb 18 23:49:21 <SpeedEvil> badcloud: Please ignore me.
Feb 18 23:49:24 <laen> Does here. Perfectly.
Feb 18 23:49:41 <badcloud> ah, shucks
Feb 18 23:50:35 <badcloud> what I'm feeling is that the current distros specifically for FR and 1973 are not focused on basic use enough
Feb 18 23:50:52 <badcloud> phone should be of first and foremost attention
Feb 18 23:50:57 <badcloud> then goodies
Feb 18 23:54:09 <SpeedEvil> kernel is first
Feb 18 23:54:11 <SpeedEvil> then phone
Feb 18 23:54:14 <SpeedEvil> then goodies.
Feb 18 23:54:15 <SpeedEvil> IMO
Feb 18 23:55:12 * mwester agrees
Feb 18 23:55:31 <badcloud> I suppose it's a philosophy/usage thing
Feb 18 23:56:22 * Weiss thinks it's more to do with how hard it is to work at the low-level stuff. it's not really true that people working on one side of things are doing it at the expense of the other
Feb 18 23:56:27 <Weiss> at least, i don't think it is
Feb 18 23:56:51 <badcloud> well, I think I need some sleep
Feb 18 23:57:06 <badcloud> later crocodiles
Feb 19 00:01:54 <laen> SpeedEvil: true, and that is why i don't even understand creating all those distro's for the FR and 1973.. why didn't they just use for example Debian with it's EmDebian project, and focus on the tools.. Debian works allready.
Feb 19 00:02:55 <laen> And all the extra's come from the debian repos anyway. So, then they only would have had the kernel and phone stuff to work on.
Feb 19 00:03:27 <vininim> Is there any suggested way of handling GPRS on SHR?
Feb 19 00:08:00 <lindi-> laen: emdebian didn't exist at that time probably
Feb 19 00:13:13 <lindi-> laen: hmm, i'm now thinking that I should have a really simple program to only answer calls. it could run without connection to X and would only play ringtone and take AUX to answer a call
Feb 19 00:13:20 <lindi-> laen: currently if X crashes I can't answer calls
Feb 19 00:16:42 <shellevil>  and hangup
Feb 19 00:16:50 <shellevil> and pulse-dial!
Feb 19 00:18:09 <lindi-> yeah answer and hangup
Feb 19 00:18:11 <vininim> awesome, gprs works!
Feb 19 00:18:48 <CIA-49> freesmartphone.org: 03mickey 07framework * rc9e5d80540d5 10/framework/subsystems/ogsmd/modems/abstract/mediator.py: ogsmd: fix ListProviders for systems that do not return the access technology. Closes FSO #329
Feb 19 00:34:34 <vininim> okay, going outside to try agps
Feb 19 01:04:01 <vininim> wat
Feb 19 01:04:03 <vininim> root@om-gta02 ~ $ mdbus -s org.freedesktop.Gypsy /org/freedesktop/Gypsy org.freedesktop.Gypsy.Device.GetFixStatus
Feb 19 01:04:04 <vininim> 1
Feb 19 01:04:13 <vininim> root@om-gta02 ~ $ mdbus -s org.freedesktop.Gypsy /org/freedesktop/Gypsy org.freedesktop.Gypsy.Position.GetPosition
Feb 19 01:04:13 <vininim> (0, 0, 0.0, 0.0, 0.0)
Feb 19 01:04:43 <mwester> what manner of mathematical equations are you writing, vininim ?
Feb 19 01:05:36 <vininim> trying to figure out why agps isn't working y_y
Feb 19 01:06:06 <vininim> FixStatus 1 means OK or not OK?
Feb 19 01:06:32 * mwester suspects this is an example of the lunacy imposed on the world by things like dbus.
Feb 19 01:06:53 <vininim> oh, 1 means none x_x
Feb 19 01:06:57 <mwester> god forbid that an application actually have a SIMPLE command-line usage, and print a useful error diagnostic!
Feb 19 01:07:18 * mwester curses dbus and all who have fallen under it's evil spell
Feb 19 01:07:52 <vininim> heh
Feb 19 01:08:08 <vininim> I wonder what is the interaction between agps and fso-gpsd
Feb 19 01:08:41 <vininim> do they conflict? what should I run first? will fso-gpsd turn gps off and on?
Feb 19 01:23:57 <rhkfin> vininim: I'd think gpsd on first (according to my 2008.12 experience). 
Feb 19 01:48:12 <CIA-49> freesmartphone.org: 03mickey 07dbus-hlid * r0a3bc4679538 10/ (9 files in 2 dirs): remove i18n support
Feb 19 02:03:47 <rhkfin> I have a .tar.gz on my server. Downloaded it to FR and try to tar zxf it but I get 'tar: corrupted octal value in tar header'. md5sum is the same on both and on server I can open it without any problems. Ideas?
Feb 19 02:05:14 <vininim> rhkfin: try gunzip followed by tar
Feb 19 02:06:43 <rhkfin> vininim: I repackaged it on the server (instead of Ark on my local) and now it works. Weird.. I never have trusted Ark anyway :)
Feb 19 02:13:15 <docscrutinizer2> (Ark) :-/
Feb 19 02:20:51 <rhkfin> right..
Feb 19 02:59:32 <jeff_> would anyone know how to enable sound?  I compilied my own kernel from the git repository and I am wondering if there are settings in the .config that I missed
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Thu Feb 19 02:59:57 2009