**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Thu Mar 19 02:59:57 2009 Mar 19 03:00:36 * SeligArkin pokes dave Mar 19 03:03:00 * Dave giggles Mar 19 03:03:04 Hey Ken :) Mar 19 03:03:45 Hi Dave - I just uploaded a new version of the orrery... Mar 19 03:03:45 I was stargazing the past few nights :) Mar 19 03:03:50 \o/ Mar 19 03:03:58 What did you see? Mar 19 03:04:18 Many lovely stars :) Mar 19 03:04:37 Orion is still around and always looks nice Mar 19 03:05:32 Yup - the Orion/Taurus area is perhaps the most striking, at least from the northern hemisphere. Mar 19 03:06:08 hmm Mar 19 03:06:11 I think its too bright where I live to see much of anything in the sky Mar 19 03:06:25 Yeah Mar 19 03:06:36 SeligArkin, Where do you live? Mar 19 03:06:37 I was out in the woods up north, so looked nice :) Mar 19 03:06:42 i wonder if it would be feasable to get orrery to align with the sky based on orientation Mar 19 03:06:46 Otherwise here in the city, you see nothing but orange haze :) Mar 19 03:06:58 near philly, ken Mar 19 03:07:21 rooly, We really need a magnetic compass build in (ala G1) to do that, don't we? Mar 19 03:07:28 yeah! Mar 19 03:07:32 Digital doesn't do it :P Mar 19 03:08:15 nah, not at all Mar 19 03:08:47 digital? Mar 19 03:08:55 Digital Compass Mar 19 03:08:58 (fake) Mar 19 03:09:18 hmmm.... Mar 19 03:09:37 ... Mar 19 03:09:38 There is an Android/G1 app for showing the sky which uses the accelerometers and build-in compass to try to show exactly what the observer would see, but it apparently doesn't correct for the difference between magnetic and true north, so it is off by quite a bit in most places. Mar 19 03:10:01 How... how the... I don't want to know... Mar 19 03:10:08 It is also butt-ugly. Mar 19 03:10:10 Yep :D Mar 19 03:10:15 Orrery ftw! Mar 19 03:10:40 What does ftw mean? Mar 19 03:10:45 wtf is a digital compas? Mar 19 03:10:54 apt, ftw? Mar 19 03:10:55 For The Win! Mar 19 03:11:00 DocScrutinizer: like accelerometers Mar 19 03:11:08 but actually tells you which way is north Mar 19 03:11:13 or gps Mar 19 03:11:32 gps isn't a compass at all Mar 19 03:11:32 with a digital compass you can properly figure out orientation of the device in the world Mar 19 03:11:41 lol Mar 19 03:11:46 combined with ac acceleremeters (which was is down) Mar 19 03:11:50 and gps tells you where you are Mar 19 03:11:56 right Mar 19 03:11:57 raster: I'd assume it's magnetic then Mar 19 03:12:01 but it's corny, and stupid Mar 19 03:12:04 so combine all those 3 and u can position the device "within the world" Mar 19 03:12:06 THe G1's is magnetic. Mar 19 03:12:10 and know hwich way its pointing Mar 19 03:12:18 or just use a $0.01 magnetic compass which is all the better! Mar 19 03:12:24 yeah Mar 19 03:12:27 magnetic Mar 19 03:12:31 tho there may be others Mar 19 03:12:35 that work differently Mar 19 03:13:18 you can always correct for magnetic vs true north in softwaree Mar 19 03:13:20 thats trivial Mar 19 03:13:24 there's no nonmagnetic compass (despite innertial systems are sometimes called "compass") Mar 19 03:13:25 * rooly considers creating an internal magnetic compas mod for the FR Mar 19 03:13:27 the problewm is if u have other magnetic things nearby Mar 19 03:13:40 and magnetic field varies slightly around the earth Mar 19 03:13:43 not always pointing north Mar 19 03:13:45 :) Mar 19 03:14:09 does the FR have any sort of grounding mechanism? Mar 19 03:14:15 And the magnetic correction changes over the years surprisingly quickly. Mar 19 03:14:27 rooly: gravity Mar 19 03:14:32 lol Mar 19 03:14:37 zing Mar 19 03:14:38 i mean electrically Mar 19 03:15:13 hmm Mar 19 03:15:15 that way i might posssibly construct a faraday cage around any nearby equipment in the case to keep it from being affected by the magnet Mar 19 03:15:17 rooly: what for? Mar 19 03:15:22 weirdness ftw Mar 19 03:15:28 Dave: WHAT DO YOU MEAN "speaking of picvtures...." Mar 19 03:15:33 hahahaha Mar 19 03:15:34 i was about to ask for what to look with debugging etk ... Mar 19 03:15:37 only problem Mar 19 03:15:42 that thing compiled Mar 19 03:15:45 -.- Mar 19 03:15:53 * tomboy64 is puzzled Mar 19 03:16:10 rooly: magnetic shielding is different to electrostatic grounding/shielding Mar 19 03:16:54 Really good magnetic shielding requires superconductors. Mar 19 03:17:15 :) Mar 19 03:17:16 yup :) Mar 19 03:17:46 hmm...i dont' think the FR battery has the output to run even the highest temperature super conducters Mar 19 03:17:51 alas that will shield the compass as well Mar 19 03:18:25 Maybe add a laser gyro! Mar 19 03:18:57 problem with compass is changing currents, mainly battery Mar 19 03:19:38 hmm Mar 19 03:19:38 to get an accurate reading you need to level down all current flowing near the compass Mar 19 03:21:11 KenYoung: checked that for gta04 some time ago, there aren't any low power miniature ones (yet?) Mar 19 03:21:29 i know! place the compass in the FR's sexhole Mar 19 03:21:52 DocScrutinizer, I was just kidding. I assumed the power requirements would make it out-of-the-question. Mar 19 03:22:08 HOLY FLUX CAPACITORS BATMAN!? Mar 19 03:22:09 I was curious, why is there a hole in the bottom of the freerunner Mar 19 03:22:21 silly selig Mar 19 03:22:24 SeligArkin: for the to making the love Mar 19 03:22:28 nah, why that? a lasermouse works from bat for weeks Mar 19 03:22:52 much too small for any human Mar 19 03:23:25 you apparently aren't of asian heritage Mar 19 03:23:33 DocScrutinizer, How small, physically, are the smallest laser gyros now? If it weren't for the power requirement, could you really stick one in a phone? Mar 19 03:23:41 * rooly couldn't figure out how to spell decent...descent... Mar 19 03:23:52 hah Mar 19 03:23:55 KenYoung: nope Mar 19 03:24:01 Zut Mar 19 03:26:41 * SeligArkin yelps in pain as a rubberband snaps hitting her Mar 19 03:27:14 KenYoung: I'd guess you could build a lasergyro formfactor of a camera module (3-axis). Dunno why there aren't any around yet apparently Mar 19 03:28:26 maybe CW-quality of laser-LEDs isn't sufficient Mar 19 03:29:07 DocScrutinizer, The Freerunner seems to be quite popular with the geocaching set. Has Om considered making a special version optimized for them, with compass, a screen with goos sunlight visibility, etc? Mar 19 03:29:23 though laserLEDs are good enough for recording holograms, so... Mar 19 03:30:00 :D Mar 19 03:30:03 KenYoung: nope Mar 19 03:31:00 i recall some nokias having a compass built in Mar 19 03:31:10 not quite accurate Mar 19 03:31:11 yup Mar 19 03:31:20 but exact enough for everyday use Mar 19 03:31:42 it's not THAT problematic Mar 19 03:32:48 just keep it away from iron and high current traces, and possibly don't use it during high power consumption takes place Mar 19 03:33:17 and whatever you do, don;t use it in a bomb Mar 19 03:33:26 SeligArkin, awww :( Mar 19 03:33:38 that would destroy its primary use-objective Mar 19 03:34:23 erm Mar 19 03:34:25 duh Mar 19 03:34:29 its a BOMB Mar 19 03:34:29 * tomboy64 is excited and wondering if he gets finally to finish his shr-compile Mar 19 03:34:42 sure Mar 19 03:34:43 a bomb's primary use method is to destroy it's primary use method Mar 19 03:34:51 oh Mar 19 03:34:52 doh Mar 19 03:34:56 overseen that Mar 19 03:35:33 lol Mar 19 03:35:45 * Dave pours a bucket of warm water on selig Mar 19 03:35:52 if it depends on openmoko it may not goi off Mar 19 03:35:58 lol Mar 19 03:36:08 ESPECIALLY if there are timers involved and the fr is asleep Mar 19 03:36:46 * rooly images SeligArkin in a white shirt, just for shits and goodness Mar 19 03:38:36 * SeligArkin does wind blow saucy music walk to rooly Mar 19 03:39:06 * rooly 's head explodes like in the movie 'Scanners' Mar 19 03:39:17 interesting Mar 19 03:40:40 kinky Mar 19 03:40:51 what's smaller: gstreamer or xine? Mar 19 03:40:58 respectively more suited for the fr Mar 19 03:41:01 * rooly gurgle Mar 19 03:41:39 tomboy64: what for? Mar 19 03:42:05 emotion wants it Mar 19 03:42:26 err... Mar 19 03:42:34 ^^ Mar 19 03:42:41 gurgle gurgle Mar 19 03:42:52 exactly my trail of thoughts Mar 19 03:43:00 * SeligArkin does windblow sexy music walk to dave Mar 19 03:43:02 guriggle Mar 19 03:43:10 * Dave rolls his eyes Mar 19 03:43:25 * rooly gurggles that dave is gay Mar 19 03:43:48 heh Mar 19 03:43:57 how interesting, I'm not really a girl.:P Mar 19 03:44:44 rooly: you lose Mar 19 03:44:46 * Dave laughs at rooly Mar 19 03:45:21 * tomboy64 randomly chooses gstreamer Mar 19 03:45:26 no further input, doc? Mar 19 03:45:33 fair enough Mar 19 03:45:44 tomboy64: use xrandr Mar 19 03:45:52 waiiittt... Mar 19 03:46:01 O.O Mar 19 03:46:14 * tomboy64 turns SeligArkin by 177.51 ° Mar 19 03:46:30 * SeligArkin errors and disappears Mar 19 03:46:49 THE PROOF SHALL SET YOU FREE. Mar 19 03:47:42 whew Mar 19 03:47:49 Dave: that's an ancient inquisition mantra? Mar 19 03:48:00 good thing i spontaneously heal like curly from oklahoma Mar 19 03:48:01 actually, it's "the truth shall set you free" Mar 19 03:48:11 ... note: freerunners don't like falling about a metre Mar 19 03:48:17 they don't? Mar 19 03:48:20 but in this case, more like proof -- since openmoko lacks many proofs that it actually works :) Mar 19 03:48:27 yadda yadda Mar 19 03:48:27 i've dropped mine from 1.5 and it still works Mar 19 03:48:34 Sargun. Mar 19 03:48:48 dave. Mar 19 03:48:50 screen went all white. :LP Mar 19 03:48:56 I need to reflash my FR Mar 19 03:48:58 and install Qi. Mar 19 03:49:00 WSOD! Mar 19 03:49:06 I hate updating. Mar 19 03:49:33 Welcome to the club. Mar 19 03:49:46 SeligArkin: that sounds nasty Mar 19 03:49:49 odd Mar 19 03:49:56 reflashing is something i enjoy doing Mar 19 03:50:28 :D Mar 19 03:50:46 pulling the battery fixed it Mar 19 03:50:47 i'm sort of an exhibitionist Mar 19 03:50:56 ;p Mar 19 03:50:59 rooly: pix? Mar 19 03:51:00 oh, good Mar 19 03:51:02 lol Mar 19 03:51:24 Dave: speaking of, upload those pics please Mar 19 03:51:32 yourself included Mar 19 03:51:34 ¬_¬ Mar 19 03:52:20 what of, dave? Mar 19 03:59:41 * SeligArkin hands Dave a folded up picture Mar 19 04:09:09 opkg update Mar 19 04:09:16 haha Mar 19 04:14:02 * SeligArkin meows at Dave Mar 19 04:16:53 * Dave claws selig Mar 19 04:18:31 eep Mar 19 04:18:42 upload those pics of it. :P Mar 19 04:18:44 rawr Mar 19 04:18:53 of the phones linked Mar 19 04:37:18 its been a week so shr must be fixxin to kick out a milestone Mar 19 04:37:59 heh, you'd hope Mar 19 04:46:01 :o Mar 19 04:50:11 :) Mar 19 04:51:56 ... Mar 19 04:51:58 stupid wifi Mar 19 04:52:06 can't wait till he gets that super antenna Mar 19 04:52:10 ;p Mar 19 05:20:17 woah, i read gta03 is gonna be out after Q3 2009, is it really that near release? Mar 19 05:20:46 * tomboy64 respectfully doubts Mar 19 05:20:56 Well, Q1 2050 is after Q3 2009. Mar 19 05:21:06 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/GTA03 Mar 19 05:21:14 KenYoung: true Mar 19 05:21:58 but even optimistically thinking q3 2009 seems very near Mar 19 05:22:09 seems as if it will not be available before Q3 2009 Mar 19 05:22:12 hah! Mar 19 05:22:19 sebbs, Yup. I'd love to get my hands on one that soon. Mar 19 05:22:30 sounds more like mid-2010 before it goes into the fab Mar 19 05:22:42 the fab? Mar 19 05:22:59 into fabrication = mass production Mar 19 05:23:06 fabricator? Mar 19 05:23:07 ok Mar 19 05:23:56 3d7k Mar 19 05:24:00 funny name Mar 19 05:24:17 Any idea what that name means? Mar 19 05:32:11 KenYoung: not more then 3d7000 Mar 19 05:35:15 sebbs: my money is on gta03 never coming out Mar 19 05:35:40 and that post by seteven is ooold Mar 19 05:35:51 xD Mar 19 05:35:51 this could be true, i hope its not though Mar 19 05:36:05 put iut this way Mar 19 05:36:21 if it takes much longer the soc (cpu) and otherwise systrem is so far behind everyone else Mar 19 05:36:27 that they probably need to start again anyway Mar 19 05:37:19 also wifi has been removed Mar 19 05:37:29 no point making new hardware from outdated components Mar 19 05:37:36 whihc makes it all that much less useful Mar 19 05:37:38 as it has no 3g Mar 19 05:37:47 where is your high-speed data networking? Mar 19 05:37:49 (bluetooth?) Mar 19 05:38:19 lets see what happens Mar 19 05:38:55 raster, Wow - WiFi is removed from the gta03? Why did that happen? Mar 19 05:39:01 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/GTA03 Mar 19 05:39:03 there on the wiki Mar 19 05:39:20 http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/devel/2009-January/004354.html Mar 19 05:41:58 why would they remove wifi Mar 19 05:42:22 that will automatically exclude a large section of the market i think (not that what i think matters that much in context) Mar 19 05:42:22 (the problem is if u stick with samsung soc's 6410 is pretty much top of the line atm - but its not top in soc's in general - omap3 seems to have the crown atm, and freescale want to steal that. qualcomm's soc might be good but no one knows much about it other than whats listed on the website) Mar 19 05:42:43 well they removed wifi Mar 19 05:42:50 its publicly stated Mar 19 05:42:53 ask om why Mar 19 05:42:58 but to me having no wifi Mar 19 05:43:02 raster: is this a price thing? i saw they cut back on alot of stuff Mar 19 05:43:28 and ALSO having no highspeed 3g (eg hspa) means no fast netowrking Mar 19 05:43:28 (hspa can do up to 7mbit - but u also need the telco to support that and pay them) Mar 19 05:43:35 dont ask me Mar 19 05:43:37 i dont work for om Mar 19 05:43:39 sebbs, THey couldn't possibly be crazy enough to drop WiFi because of price, on a non-3G phone. Mar 19 05:43:41 i like wifi, it feels like a pda, i can ssh to my server from the bathroom and change music Mar 19 05:43:48 i just... hang around and make smelly stuff :) Mar 19 05:44:02 KenYoung: its dropped Mar 19 05:44:04 like it or not :) Mar 19 05:44:08 crazy or not Mar 19 05:44:13 until informed otherwise Mar 19 05:44:52 raster, But it's possible that just that Mavell chip is dropped, and they have some other WiFi solution in the pipe, isn't it? Mar 19 05:44:59 perhaps they have a nextgen ninjasatelite tech we dont know about Mar 19 05:45:07 imo, wifi is not that important if we get edge/3g. Mar 19 05:45:28 husku, But I think it is definately known we won't get 3G. Mar 19 05:45:30 KenYoung: anything is possible.. but not stated that they do Mar 19 05:45:46 husku: edge has horrible latency Mar 19 05:45:48 i dont know enough about edge, but it means i have to rely on external networks, wifi means i can hook it up myself Mar 19 05:45:50 thats how i see it Mar 19 05:45:57 husku: and its still at best in THEORY to about 250kbit Mar 19 05:45:59 but i mean sure bluetooth could work Mar 19 05:46:05 and i read usb3 is gonna be wireless Mar 19 05:46:09 dont know if thats true though Mar 19 05:46:12 and unlike wifi, while at home.. you pay for it Mar 19 05:46:18 so wifi imho is a must anyway Mar 19 05:46:24 if u have nerds wanting it Mar 19 05:46:25 raster: but it works "everywhere" and gives nicer batterytime. Mar 19 05:46:31 they dont want to be runing their data to the telco and back Mar 19 05:46:44 and back into their firewall just to sssh to their home server .. while at home Mar 19 05:46:45 :) Mar 19 05:46:51 you could always just connect a wifidongle Mar 19 05:47:00 as for wifi - it can give as godo battery time Mar 19 05:47:05 simply turn it off Mar 19 05:47:08 raster: why not just use bluetooth when at home? Mar 19 05:47:21 husku: bt is at best 768kbit Mar 19 05:47:25 and range is really short Mar 19 05:47:32 bt may easily not go beyond 1 room Mar 19 05:47:41 its specced range is i think 10ft Mar 19 05:47:51 and its laggy Mar 19 05:47:57 and acts weird Mar 19 05:48:19 also very few people will have a "bt router" Mar 19 05:48:21 Hmm, I never really had much use for wifi in my last two pda phones. Once or twice when out (not that many free spots), but at home a laptop is more useful Mar 19 05:48:24 raster: you have very good points :) Mar 19 05:48:26 even nerds Mar 19 05:48:46 wifi is - for better or worse, these days, fairly ubiquitous. Mar 19 05:49:05 at home yes, outside of home, not so much (here anyway) Mar 19 05:49:11 Everyone has WiFI at work. Mar 19 05:49:15 i guess ill just stick with my gta02 till it dies Mar 19 05:49:19 eolson: i also did not find wifi on my nokia very usefull. Mar 19 05:49:20 that's true, it is at work too Mar 19 05:49:43 it depends what u do Mar 19 05:49:51 KenYoung: while at work, i use the usbcable. gives nice timings and keeps battery full. much nicer than wifi :p Mar 19 05:49:55 husku: this is due to keyboard input Mar 19 05:50:09 but gta02 added wifi from gta01 due to overwhelming demand for it Mar 19 05:50:11 husku: have you ever used a proper pda with a good solid keyboard and wifi? its really nice Mar 19 05:50:13 husku, But then you're tethered to something. Mar 19 05:50:15 thats why gta02 had it at all Mar 19 05:50:23 half the reason to add glamo for gfx was to get wifi Mar 19 05:50:30 thats how much push it had behind it Mar 19 05:50:32 sebbs: no. only N80 and laptops Mar 19 05:50:36 that alone says something Mar 19 05:50:42 raster: it lacked a camera Mar 19 05:50:47 but i do see your point. Mar 19 05:50:52 i suppose it's just easier to release a phone with fewer features Mar 19 05:51:13 gta02 jumped thru hoops with cd card on glamo's sd controller Mar 19 05:51:16 and all the glamo related problems Mar 19 05:51:18 just toi get wifi Mar 19 05:52:01 either way Mar 19 05:52:06 lets see when gta03 comes out Mar 19 05:52:10 do you ppl use your phones are primary ones? Mar 19 05:52:25 ping andy or openmoko-kernel to see how the kernel support is going for 6410 Mar 19 05:52:36 i dont use a gta02 as a primary phone Mar 19 05:52:40 have tried a few times Mar 19 05:52:45 sebbs: moko is my primary one, but i "need" phone about twice a week so... :) Mar 19 05:52:48 it failed so miserabkly... i wont even try anymore Mar 19 05:52:53 i use gta01 as primary Mar 19 05:53:10 sebbs, I use my Freerunner as my primary phone, although I also have a G1 which I use for on-the-go web acces. Mar 19 05:53:30 KenYoung: do you have root on your g1? Mar 19 05:53:38 sebbs, Nope. Mar 19 05:53:41 can you install software on it or is it really locked up? Mar 19 05:54:08 this is why i bought a freerunner Mar 19 05:54:11 sebbs, It's locked up, and I really don't care. All my phone messing around time is reserved for the Freerunner. Mar 19 05:54:32 I have no interest in hacking on a G1. Mar 19 05:54:33 i understand Mar 19 05:55:15 pitty they limited the phone like that, it has a lot of potential hardware wise Mar 19 05:56:12 sebbs, I don't think there will ever be a truly open, unlocked phone offered by the phone companies. It would just be too much of a support nightmare. Mar 19 05:56:26 how come? Mar 19 05:56:46 you mean ppl would brick their phones? Mar 19 05:57:27 KenYoung: not sure entirely - its more the telcos who want to keep customers locked in to their network - thus using technical means like the handset, to stop them from bypassing their voice charges by using voip, or data bypassing sms, etc. etc. Mar 19 05:57:47 If you don't confine apps to a sandbox, and you allow users to install new kernels, the phones will be bricked by users who get in over their heads, and they will expect the phone support people to figure out how to get their phones going again. Mar 19 05:57:54 support would be easy enouhg Mar 19 05:58:10 if u fiddle with the default firmware outside the bounds they allow all support/.warranty is dropped Mar 19 05:58:13 thats easy enough to do Mar 19 05:58:36 by simply checking sha1 or md5 checksums on uboot, kernel, and the bits of the filesystem they want locked down Mar 19 05:58:46 raster, I'm sure that's true - but do you think any company could realistically support a phone where users could install completely different OSs than were shipped with the unit? Mar 19 05:58:58 yes Mar 19 05:59:08 but "if u install somethnig else - dont come to use for support" Mar 19 05:59:13 no different to laptops Mar 19 05:59:14 or desktops Mar 19 05:59:44 it makes sense that its the telcos that are trying to keep people locked in Mar 19 05:59:59 the telco on the other hand is Mar 19 06:00:16 1. subsidizing the phone Mar 19 06:00:30 so they have basically paid $200,$300, $400 FOR you Mar 19 06:00:38 they have made a loss on the phone when you walk out of the store Mar 19 06:00:49 they are goign to weant to hold ont your business and money to get it back Mar 19 06:00:58 by keeping you on for 1, 2 or even 3 years Mar 19 06:01:24 also invariably its not the phone maker having to handle support Mar 19 06:01:25 but the telco Mar 19 06:01:33 as the telco sold the phone to the customer Mar 19 06:01:41 so custoemr goes back to telco store and complains Mar 19 06:02:05 on a technical level it'd be very easy to support a modifiable os Mar 19 06:02:12 one that can be upgraded with official packages Mar 19 06:02:21 and extended with new software addons Mar 19 06:02:44 raster, Well, the iPhone and Android have that already. Mar 19 06:02:49 and easy to know if someone stepped out of that box - if they did simply say "unless its an obvious hardware fault of ours - warranty is void" Mar 19 06:02:58 iphone doesnt Mar 19 06:03:28 raster, They push updates to the OS, and you can download apps. Mar 19 06:03:32 it doesnt offer the ability to step outside the box and say "i dont weant your appstore. i want it my way thanks. i'll accept the blame if i brick it" Mar 19 06:03:36 that isnt offered Mar 19 06:03:43 you have ONLY 1 choice Mar 19 06:04:24 raster, Are they actually trying to legally prevent jailbreaking the iPhone? Mar 19 06:04:40 dmca Mar 19 06:04:44 they actually have been Mar 19 06:04:44 I thought you could jail break, but Apple washed their hands of it then. Mar 19 06:04:50 as well as technically stopping it Mar 19 06:04:58 ie putting in technical roadblocks to it Mar 19 06:05:18 even if u jailbreak Mar 19 06:05:21 the core os isnt open Mar 19 06:05:27 u cant "patch your kernel" Mar 19 06:05:42 etc. etc. Mar 19 06:06:23 i dont see a phone being any different to a pc or laptop in any of this Mar 19 06:06:40 other than in the usa at leats the only way to get a phone sanely is via the telco Mar 19 06:06:44 u cant just get a sim card and no phone Mar 19 06:06:55 they force you to buy/take a subsidised phone, like it or not. Mar 19 06:07:00 so u pay for one anyway Mar 19 06:07:05 there is no choice Mar 19 06:07:24 raster, T-mobile will give you a sim and no phone in the US. I've done that. Mar 19 06:07:33 oh they do now? Mar 19 06:07:34 thats new Mar 19 06:07:38 people dont see the value in paying the same amount as a new computer for something the size of a pack of cards Mar 19 06:07:44 and then with lo9wer per month charges Mar 19 06:07:47 or no contract? Mar 19 06:07:48 hence the need for subsidies Mar 19 06:08:21 madwoota: or more to the point - phones have always been cheap Mar 19 06:08:34 they see computers as amazing do-it-all devices Mar 19 06:08:42 they see phones as "i just want to make a damned call" Mar 19 06:08:49 like the good old rotary phone Mar 19 06:08:52 exactly :) Mar 19 06:08:54 raster, I got a pay-as-you-go SIM, with no contract, and no phone, at one of the Cambridge MA T-Mobile stores. Mar 19 06:09:07 and even then the rotary phone days.. the phone was provided by the telco Mar 19 06:09:08 u rented it Mar 19 06:09:31 heh, my employer still makes shedloads off people paying rental for a phone Mar 19 06:09:33 KenYoung: ok - thats changed Mar 19 06:09:34 (landline phone) Mar 19 06:09:38 which costs us $5 Mar 19 06:09:54 madwoota: i know. its traditionally been a total money pot for telcos Mar 19 06:09:58 to lease u a phone Mar 19 06:10:00 it looks cheap Mar 19 06:10:03 $5/month Mar 19 06:10:10 but over the years... as it sits there and gets yellow Mar 19 06:10:17 everything about landlines is a money printing machine, thats why they resist the move away from them so much Mar 19 06:10:19 you end up paying 20x the value of the phone Mar 19 06:10:40 especially encumbents :P Mar 19 06:10:44 yup Mar 19 06:10:52 i think nerds in general understand things more Mar 19 06:11:05