**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Sun Apr 05 02:59:57 2009 Apr 05 03:00:12 'cause ahm nawt heuh Apr 05 03:00:29 rooly: or you give him a proper beating and he learns his lesson Apr 05 03:00:35 i could Apr 05 03:00:37 * doc|laptop has been watching too much of The Wire Apr 05 03:00:43 but i won't Apr 05 03:00:50 not unless one is provoked Apr 05 03:01:08 see, if i don't throw the first punch, and don't provoke, i dont' get fired Apr 05 03:01:14 and he's a little puss anyway Apr 05 03:01:38 also about half my height Apr 05 03:01:44 not literally, but a head shorter Apr 05 03:02:04 Apr 05 03:02:09 ... Apr 05 03:02:14 yeah, there too Apr 05 03:03:32 jesus, why am i telling people all my problems recently Apr 05 03:04:08 rooly: tthat's en vogue it seems Apr 05 03:04:37 though some people don't even notice it Apr 05 03:04:44 when they do Apr 05 03:05:08 its just not like me Apr 05 03:05:15 (talking about a certain speech held recently) Apr 05 03:05:38 hmm? Apr 05 03:05:43 one that's all over the intrarwebs? Apr 05 03:05:49 ah, nevermind Apr 05 03:05:55 yup Apr 05 03:06:10 * rooly snickers Apr 05 03:07:35 dude here in the cafe fixing uneven painting. Whips out spirit iphone level :( Apr 05 03:08:01 *iphone spirit level Apr 05 03:08:39 wooow, seen that on FR a year ago I think Apr 05 03:09:00 until the battery died? :) Apr 05 03:10:13 doc|laptop: nah, we make the bat swell to autoadjust the spirit level ;) Apr 05 03:10:30 hehehe Apr 05 03:10:31 right Dave? Apr 05 03:10:54 YES Apr 05 03:11:17 i think the topic should be changed to "Massively redundant reports of massive redundancies..." Apr 05 03:11:23 THAT'S truely innovative engineering! Apr 05 03:11:59 * rooly snickers Apr 05 03:12:15 its funny that everything on the iphone was a tech-demo on the FR a year before Apr 05 03:12:54 rooly: except for actually decently fast gfx :) Apr 05 03:12:55 :) Apr 05 03:13:07 * raster wonders why blender has to suck so much Apr 05 03:13:13 hey Apr 05 03:13:13 :D Apr 05 03:13:14 hey hey hey Apr 05 03:13:15 thatsa low blow Apr 05 03:13:26 but the FR definitely had opengl long before Apr 05 03:13:35 bender? ;D Apr 05 03:13:46 and the fact that it could make a phone call. That's rather a nice feature, for a phone, at least once in a while. Apr 05 03:13:47 even if it was ogl 1.2 software and 6fps with only 4 vertices Apr 05 03:13:51 my favourite bot Apr 05 03:13:52 rooly: it never had it Apr 05 03:14:09 rooly: it had a chip "in theory capable of it" Apr 05 03:14:16 ooh Apr 05 03:14:19 software gl doesnt count Apr 05 03:14:24 sure it does Apr 05 03:14:32 unless its hyper-optimsied software that actually is "fast" (for software) Apr 05 03:14:33 Well that was fun Apr 05 03:14:34 iphone never had software gl Apr 05 03:14:43 this is funny http://mobile.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1188191&cid=27461149 Apr 05 03:14:59 * rooly would kiss whoever could port homeworld to FR Apr 05 03:15:13 don't make me kiss myself Apr 05 03:15:18 cause i go all the way Apr 05 03:15:52 homeworld would need source first Apr 05 03:16:07 source is available Apr 05 03:16:07 as such the 3d hw on the gta02 is pretty weak Apr 05 03:16:13 but the 6410.. that would be doable Apr 05 03:16:14 just stripped of things like bink video Apr 05 03:16:16 just use wine Apr 05 03:16:19 that the gta03 was using Apr 05 03:16:23 * rooly slaps ndnihil Apr 05 03:16:27 ooh it is? Apr 05 03:16:27 :) Apr 05 03:16:28 ok Apr 05 03:16:32 wine is NOT an emulator Apr 05 03:16:34 :o Apr 05 03:16:39 u'd also need to implement full gl on top of gles Apr 05 03:16:40 possible Apr 05 03:16:41 but work Apr 05 03:16:45 or convert to gles Apr 05 03:16:59 * ndnihil imagines how painfully slow wine on the FR would be Apr 05 03:17:42 ndnihil: t wouldnt be slow.. as it wouldnt do much but instantly exit Apr 05 03:17:51 ndnihil: it wouldn't work at all Apr 05 03:17:52 so it'd get to exiting really fast Apr 05 03:18:02 wine runs on x86 archtectures Apr 05 03:18:14 wine is NOT an emulator Apr 05 03:18:26 well, wine could run on any arch, but the software it would be running wont Apr 05 03:18:58 so if you could find windows source, or windows apps compiled for a full windows desktop running on an arm9 core (doesn't exist) then maybe wine would be useful Apr 05 03:19:38 XP source was floating around, but really I think I'll pass Apr 05 03:19:39 windows *app* source Apr 05 03:19:53 rooly: that's why FR-vmware started years ago Apr 05 03:20:15 ..?? Apr 05 03:20:22 ;D Apr 05 03:20:30 gawd Apr 05 03:20:37 lets not even joke about a vm running on the FR Apr 05 03:20:56 * ndnihil spins up another DomU on the FR Apr 05 03:21:04 heh Apr 05 03:21:08 hehe Apr 05 03:21:22 * DocScrutinizer is Dom0 Apr 05 03:21:40 *cough* Apr 05 03:22:37 domo origato Apr 05 03:22:52 atsui tenke denu ne?! Apr 05 03:22:58 er Apr 05 03:22:59 desu Apr 05 03:24:16 o_O Apr 05 03:24:27 * rooly snickers Apr 05 03:24:32 good one ndnihil Apr 05 03:38:33 http://translate.google.com/translate?prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bernerzeitung.ch%2Fdigital%2Fmobil%2FVorlaeufig-kein-weiteres-LinuxTelefon%2Fstory%2F15176367&sl=de&tl=en&history_state0= ? Apr 05 03:38:51 we know Apr 05 03:39:00 I just learned, pardon me. Apr 05 03:39:07 :) Apr 05 03:39:26 its really non-news Apr 05 03:39:50 * SeligArkin watches torchwood Apr 05 03:41:29 just like the 'orphaned works bill' in the US, its something that should have happened a long time ago, but is only news now because someone spoke about it and a bunch of ignorant bloggers are complaining Apr 05 03:42:00 hahah Apr 05 03:42:42 rooly, Fair enough. Apr 05 03:42:48 hedh Apr 05 03:42:53 'They made you aminisa' Apr 05 03:43:28 paulproteus: it really only means a slow-down in developement Apr 05 03:43:38 not that any of us were seeing anything noticeable anyway Apr 05 03:43:40 us end-users Apr 05 03:44:10 would have been nice to have a gta03 in the works Apr 05 03:44:17 just to see the company continue :/ Apr 05 03:44:22 mmhmm Apr 05 03:44:31 doc|laptop, Yup. Apr 05 03:44:32 so, can we predict what the new device might be? :) Apr 05 03:44:41 anyone got any suggestions? :) Apr 05 03:44:44 Defective Apr 05 03:44:47 lol Apr 05 03:44:48 hahaha Apr 05 03:44:52 lmao Apr 05 03:45:02 that has to go onto the jokes page Apr 05 03:45:07 or would that be in bad taste? Apr 05 03:45:19 :) Apr 05 03:45:29 DocScrutinizer: any objections? :) Apr 05 03:47:57 WELL Apr 05 03:51:27 do it Apr 05 03:51:28 OD IT Apr 05 03:51:32 DO even Apr 05 03:52:34 hehe Apr 05 03:53:13 DOOEEET Apr 05 03:54:02 * doc|laptop can't remember his wiki login Apr 05 03:54:07 someone else want to do it? Apr 05 03:54:14 * rooly doesn't have a wiki login Apr 05 03:54:22 * rooly doesn't like wiki's really Apr 05 03:54:26 too hard to find any information Apr 05 03:54:36 search++ Apr 05 03:55:15 wiki search needs pow(wiki.search, (unsigned int)-1) Apr 05 03:55:19 before its useable Apr 05 03:55:54 google +site:wiki.wherever Apr 05 03:56:10 better than most wiki and forum search functions Apr 05 03:56:19 still gross Apr 05 03:56:43 the problem with a wiki is it has no site map Apr 05 03:56:48 no structure Apr 05 03:57:20 the real problem with wiki is that stupid name, "wiki" Apr 05 04:01:30 Cervajz :S Apr 05 04:01:31 :D Apr 05 04:02:10 Dave: What? Apr 05 04:03:12 dave must be randy again Apr 05 04:11:08 * SeligArkin watches some SG-1 Apr 05 04:12:04 * rooly wishes that season 9 and 10 weren't so god-awfully....awful? Apr 05 04:12:43 * SeligArkin wishes hulu had more than season 1 Apr 05 04:13:16 the pirate bay has links to more Apr 05 04:13:29 :p Apr 05 04:13:55 and i don't have the internets or the disk space to rip it off Apr 05 04:13:59 :P Apr 05 04:14:32 ic Apr 05 04:18:30 :p Apr 05 04:18:49 poor little selig Apr 05 05:01:51 * SeligArkin watches 1x21 then goes to sleep Apr 05 05:08:30 * rooly places a hidden camera in her room Apr 05 05:14:14 * SeligArkin does a striptease for the camera Apr 05 05:14:58 * rooly grows a massive erection Apr 05 05:15:02 aww damnit Apr 05 05:15:04 damnit Apr 05 05:15:04 damnit Apr 05 05:15:13 thanks alot SeligArkin. now i have to beat it down Apr 05 05:15:43 heh Apr 05 05:16:05 didn't know you liked guys in girls clothes. :P Apr 05 05:16:41 well, to each his own, eh? Apr 05 05:18:00 haha Apr 05 05:18:08 'mmmm goa'uld tv...' Apr 05 05:18:27 ooo! Apr 05 05:18:36 goa'ulds gone wild! Apr 05 05:18:49 haha Apr 05 05:19:28 i think i shall sleep Apr 05 05:19:29 its late Apr 05 05:19:35 and i have to be up at the crack of dawn Apr 05 05:19:39 and itss gonna be cold Apr 05 05:19:41 ... Apr 05 05:19:41 ... oh god, moaning and saying 'oh yes' in goauld voice... Apr 05 05:19:46 oh god I haste you roo Apr 05 05:19:53 err Apr 05 05:19:56 s? Apr 05 05:20:04 * SeligArkin cries trying to get the image out of her head Apr 05 05:20:28 SeligArkin: its already there from the movie Apr 05 05:20:31 the first movie Apr 05 05:20:38 when the chick gets made into a queen Apr 05 05:20:41 need a linuxquestions.org type of setup Apr 05 05:21:22 I need a blow-....., deier... Apr 05 05:21:41 is that an attempt at drier or derier Apr 05 05:21:52 drier Apr 05 05:22:00 * SeligArkin notes hulu is a drain on her internets Apr 05 05:22:06 * rooly snickers Apr 05 05:22:08 night Apr 05 05:22:11 gotta go Apr 05 05:22:15 its gonna be hell in the morning Apr 05 05:22:18 night Apr 05 09:09:35 ahoi Apr 05 09:16:12 Yo, btw Apr 05 09:27:12 shall we leave this channel ? Apr 05 09:27:33 why Apr 05 09:27:41 OM is dying in my opinion Apr 05 09:27:44 I'm too frustrated Apr 05 09:28:10 I'll buy an N97 :-p Apr 05 09:28:52 lol Apr 05 09:28:58 Actually, OM shows why it's important that the product is Free "Software" Apr 05 09:30:35 I think the formula for OM is wrong Apr 05 09:30:55 it should try to compete against stuff like the nokia N/E series... Apr 05 09:31:00 Well, they made some errors, but the good thing is we can survive :) Apr 05 09:31:04 ruskie: there should be more $ on the left Apr 05 09:31:20 while infact it seems to be more competing against HTC and WM devices Apr 05 09:31:43 As I understand it, there has not been confirmation on if or not there will be new run(s) of FR Apr 05 09:32:16 If FR is still actually selling - then there is no development involved in making another 2000, with all the fixes. Apr 05 09:34:08 I guess Steve Mosher and Sean do nothing but talk Apr 05 09:34:25 I hesitate in saying that. Apr 05 09:34:25 they never even talked on IRC Apr 05 09:34:36 They have produced useful hardware. Apr 05 09:34:56 they have "failed" at producing useful hardware Apr 05 09:35:00 dash? Apr 05 09:35:05 ah ok Apr 05 09:35:13 well Apr 05 09:35:19 And I find GTA01 useful, though I don't actually use it much as a phone. Apr 05 09:35:25 we never knew what happened with dash .. except on the day it was released Apr 05 09:36:26 http://www.amazon.com/Dash-Express-Internet-Connected-All-Your-Base-Portable-Navigator/dp/B0014CIBWC/ref=pd_bbs_1?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1238924150&sr=8-1 Apr 05 09:45:16 I note that the dash is now on sale - one person notes they've stopped selling Apr 05 09:45:46 and used ones are $120 Apr 05 09:52:23 The OM wasn't a failed experiment in any light tho. Hardware issues/software issues/NDA issues/political issues aside Apr 05 09:54:53 Many believe substantially more could have been achieved with the same investment. Which could be viewed as a failure. Apr 05 09:55:15 It has certainly - so far - failed to achieve any of the stated aims at the beginning of the project. Apr 05 09:55:52 SpeedEvil: what were they? Apr 05 09:56:02 Good question. Apr 05 09:56:09 * SpeedEvil stares back into the mists of time. Apr 05 09:56:16 i got what i expected Apr 05 09:56:40 of course i was hoping to be positively surprised but my real expectations were not that high Apr 05 09:56:43 Not the explanations of what you got when ordering a phone - that was mostly sane. Apr 05 09:57:16 The optimism as to where the project was going - that it would be consumer ready 'soon'. Apr 05 09:57:30 lindi-: than is your expectance a other than the description text on the website ;) Apr 05 09:57:49 PBeck: parse error Apr 05 09:57:50 on example => the buzz Apr 05 09:58:01 or the gps problem with sd Apr 05 09:58:03 my buzz is fixed :) Apr 05 09:58:14 my sd bandwidth is high enough Apr 05 09:58:22 http://openmoko.com/press/OpenMoko_20061107.pdf Apr 05 09:58:24 for example Apr 05 09:58:33 neva had buzz! Apr 05 09:58:39 from the beginning, was the 'plan' or atleast idea to have the community provide the software for the phone? or was OpenMoko supposed to get a solid base, and then the community would add gadgets and cool stuff? Apr 05 09:58:41 lindi-: when i buyed my freerunner the sayed it has no mistakes and i can use it as phone when the software is ready Apr 05 09:58:59 lindi-: not the bandwith => a gps fix Apr 05 09:59:13 but i think the software solution is as good as the hardwaresolution right? Apr 05 09:59:35 PBeck: no. the software solution is better Apr 05 09:59:36 mithris: the develop paroli of course the will provide the software Apr 05 09:59:42 *they Apr 05 09:59:43 PBeck: gpx fix? Apr 05 09:59:56 PBeck: i have no problems with gps fix Apr 05 10:00:17 I supported this project because I was hoping the idea of an open source phone would allow greater investment in the next release... and snowball Apr 05 10:00:17 lindi-: the problem that you have to wait hours for a gps fix Apr 05 10:00:21 hopefully it still does Apr 05 10:00:36 - for me - GTA01 - with an adequate software stack would be a _completely_ adequate phone. Apr 05 10:00:36 lindi-: i hope you understand my bad english :) Apr 05 10:01:02 Shlee: it's not at the end :) we are at the beginning :) Apr 05 10:01:03 PBeck: i don't need to wait for hours to get gps fix Apr 05 10:01:16 lindi-: hum that WAS a problem Apr 05 10:01:29 lindi-: the had applied a hardware fix and a software solution to fix it Apr 05 10:01:29 PBeck: yeah Apr 05 10:01:48 but i think the software solution was alone enough, right? Apr 05 10:01:58 yep Apr 05 10:02:05 ok than its ok Apr 05 10:02:12 I'd keep my GTA01 for an adroid phone Apr 05 10:02:17 lindi-: have you applied the buzz fix yourself? Apr 05 10:02:39 so anyone know what the new product is going to be? Apr 05 10:02:48 PBeck: nope, i used the help of a collegue who is familiar with smd soldering Apr 05 10:03:17 lindi-: hum - i should look into the solution, perhaps i can apply it myself Apr 05 10:03:52 PBeck: if you don't have soldering experience i would not recommend Apr 05 10:04:38 lindi-: i have a bit smd soldering experience :) Apr 05 10:05:07 perhaps its enough ;) Apr 05 10:05:13 PBeck: then you can try Apr 05 10:05:18 holycow: perhaps a mp3 player? Apr 05 10:05:20 just don't start without the right components Apr 05 10:05:30 holycow: i dont know - we can discuss a few ideas ;) Apr 05 10:05:40 heh Apr 05 10:05:40 lindi-: jpo Apr 05 10:05:43 *jop Apr 05 10:06:03 Shlee: when android runs on the freerunner the hardware it not useless ;) Apr 05 10:06:08 *is Apr 05 10:06:33 Shlee: but i think in the future we will have a few stable platforms - i hope so :) Apr 05 10:06:58 PBeck: you really think so? Apr 05 10:07:17 PBeck: the issues I have are related to kernel, X and ogsmd. none of these will android fix Apr 05 10:07:28 so just out of curiosity, is access to the cell networks controlled by a 'cellular modem?' Apr 05 10:07:40 holycow: what does that mean? Apr 05 10:07:42 i'm just curious if the concept is similar to how we handle network access on a pc Apr 05 10:08:08 i.e. can one buy 'cel modems' to attach to sbc's? Apr 05 10:08:18 lindi-: why you need ogsmd in android? Apr 05 10:08:26 yes Apr 05 10:08:30 holycow Apr 05 10:08:43 PBeck: to talk to calypso? Apr 05 10:08:54 SpeedEvil: neat Apr 05 10:08:57 lindi-: ogsmd is the framework? Apr 05 10:09:12 PBeck: well, you need something that talks to the gsm, right? Apr 05 10:09:17 android use it? i think they had a own solution? Apr 05 10:09:20 holycow: think of radio as lots of 10base-t networks, connected to everyone in range on the same frequency. And maybe a hundred thousand seperate networks for each different frequency Apr 05 10:09:51 oh neato. thats a neat way to visualize it Apr 05 10:11:05 lindi-: it gives many solution to talk with the hardware Apr 05 10:11:34 SpeedEvil: so theoretically, one can probably buy some off the shelf sbc components and build their own cel device Apr 05 10:11:47 they won't be able to sell it because of regulation, but it might be doable? Apr 05 10:22:17 PBeck: but android does not know the quirks of calypso gsm chiop Apr 05 10:23:43 lindi-: but the not use the framework - that will be new for me Apr 05 10:23:46 *they Apr 05 10:26:23 PBeck: what makes you think google android would use fso frameworkd+ Apr 05 10:27:11 fso is the best for handling the calypso quirkiness tho Apr 05 10:27:20 lindi-: ogsmd? Apr 05 10:27:30 PBeck: ogsmd is part of frameworkd Apr 05 10:27:43 12:07:17 < lindi-> PBeck: the issues I have are related to kernel, X and ogsmd. none of these will android fix Apr 05 10:27:52 lindi-: but not a part of android Apr 05 10:28:05 so why should android fix ogsmd? Apr 05 10:28:08 PBeck: yes, android has its own module for talking to the gsm chip Apr 05 10:28:21 ok, where is the problem then? :) Apr 05 10:28:29 PBeck: it does not handle the quirks of calypso Apr 05 10:30:02 example? Apr 05 10:30:16 and why it should not handle the quirks in the future? Apr 05 10:30:51 PBeck: why would it handle them any better than ogsmd? ;) Apr 05 10:31:18 why not? Apr 05 10:31:28 i think they have the same information Apr 05 10:31:40 PBeck: they don't have access to NDA'd calypso sources Apr 05 10:31:56 lindi-: but they can look into the ogsmd code? Apr 05 10:32:00 PBeck: sure Apr 05 10:32:20 so they will have the same information Apr 05 10:32:23 PBeck: but since even ogsmd is not that stable yet it won't help Apr 05 10:32:33 lindi-: lol Apr 05 10:33:47 PBeck: http://iki.fi/lindi/openmoko/calypso-modem Apr 05 10:34:18 lindi-: btw any project can sign the nda Apr 05 10:34:33 lindi-: so i think the android porter can do the same Apr 05 10:35:14 PBeck: really? Apr 05 10:35:33 lindi-: they do the same with glamo, why not for the gsm chip? Apr 05 10:36:32 PBeck: is it the same? Apr 05 10:36:50 PBeck: glamo is from Smedia Apr 05 10:36:55 PBeck: calypso is from TI Apr 05 10:37:35 lindi-: openmoko can say that he is a employee Apr 05 10:38:00 a freelancer so why he not should get the nda? Apr 05 10:38:25 do you need to put in modules manually when using SHR-testing Apr 05 10:38:29 http://build.shr-project.org/shr-testing/images/om-gta02/uImage-om-gta02-latest.bin Apr 05 10:38:41 http://build.shr-project.org/shr-testing/images/om-gta02/shr-image-om-gta02.jffs2 Apr 05 10:39:05 PBeck: maybe Apr 05 10:40:31 i cant get suspend/resume working properly Apr 05 10:41:35 PBeck: i'm just trying to argument that android in its current form won't help me with my freerunner issues unfortunately Apr 05 10:44:08 pazante: what exactly the problem? Apr 05 10:44:47 it wont resume Apr 05 10:45:15 pazante: resume from what event? Apr 05 10:45:19 pazante: kernel version? Apr 05 10:45:58 event and if i push the power button Apr 05 10:46:58 pazante: inserting usb (wallcharger or PC) should resume it too. What kernel version are you using? Apr 05 10:49:39 PaulFertser: kernel version 2.6.28-rc4 Apr 05 10:50:33 pazante: and how do you suspend? Have you tried to "echo mem > /sys/power/state"? Apr 05 10:52:20 lindi-: i think no distri is perfect Apr 05 10:53:00 PBeck: true Apr 05 10:53:36 lindi-: i use my neo only for geocaching und osm with tangogps ;) Apr 05 10:53:55 lindi-: but i hope that i will it use for more in the future :) Apr 05 10:54:40 lindi-: or can use it ;) Apr 05 10:55:35 PaulFertser: i only have it on auto suspend Apr 05 10:55:45 PBeck: you should try navit Apr 05 10:57:31 lindi-: i need only a mapviewer no navigation Apr 05 10:57:34 i like tangogps :) Apr 05 10:58:26 PBeck: you can use navit like that Apr 05 10:59:12 lindi-: i should test it ;) Apr 05 11:01:37 PBeck: the advantage is that the maps take much less space Apr 05 11:01:50 lindi-: how much? Apr 05 11:08:27 PBeck: 21MB for whole Serbia. Apr 05 11:08:48 PBeck: And easier to download them on some other machine, then transfer them to Neo. Apr 05 11:09:10 (there's a nice tool on navit's site for downloading OSM maps) Apr 05 11:19:23 azaghal: that sounds great Apr 05 11:19:41 i have a few gb for a part of germany ;) Apr 05 11:19:57 I think there's a pre-made bin file for Germany, btw. Apr 05 11:20:19 last time i looked at navit, its OSM map download function produced artifacts in rectangular form Apr 05 11:20:27 looked really ugly Apr 05 11:20:35 Or not... Apr 05 11:20:36 azaghal: yep i think so too Apr 05 11:20:38 PBeck: wget -O germany.bin http://maps.navit-project.org/api/map/?bbox=5.185546875,46.845703125,15.46875,55.634765625 Apr 05 11:20:43 But that's not prebuilt. Apr 05 11:20:50 i'd like something that works with the native osm binary format Apr 05 11:20:51 ok thanks Apr 05 11:21:02 Wonka: The tool on the site? Apr 05 11:21:09 Or the tool within navit app? Apr 05 11:21:18 Because it lookd ok here Apr 05 11:21:31 azaghal: "some mapviewer" Apr 05 11:21:40 azaghal: argh, misunderstanding Apr 05 11:21:41 Wonka: which format you mean? Apr 05 11:21:54 azaghal: don't know which tool it was, back then Apr 05 11:22:16 I think it has improved over time :) Apr 05 11:22:32 Maemo Mapper might still hold an edge over it feature-wise, though. Apr 05 11:22:39 PBeck: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/OSM_Mobile_Binary_Protocol Apr 05 11:23:00 I wonder if anyone tried making 3D maps using GPS traces? Apr 05 11:24:16 azaghal: just forget that. only yesterday, i was tracking along a road wich clearly was several m above NN, and GPS said -11m Apr 05 11:24:28 Heheh Apr 05 11:24:29 Pitty Apr 05 11:24:36 lol Apr 05 11:24:38 Wonka: Limitiation in FR GPS device? Apr 05 11:24:45 azaghal: vertical DOP is _way_ too big, even with 8 satellites used Apr 05 11:24:47 now go down 11 meters in the middle of the highway ;) Apr 05 11:24:49 Wonka: I guess it's good it didn't show -2m ;) Apr 05 11:24:56 Ah, ok. Apr 05 11:25:25 hell atlast people might actually consider that the device isn't all-knowing and start using their brains again Apr 05 11:25:30 Wonka: ok thanks Apr 05 11:25:34 maybe a better gps device (ublox 5?) will have better results Apr 05 11:25:35 Using GPS for time-setting might be interesting as well. I've seen some page about it on wiki. Apr 05 11:25:56 azaghal: that's implemented in frameworkd since weeks or even months Apr 05 11:26:07 Nice :) Apr 05 11:26:34 i think the freerunner gps is a very good device Apr 05 11:26:38 Am I right to guess that development of fso framework will depend on community exclusively as well now? Apr 05 11:27:07 I'd like to find a GPS device that does communication over USB but has its own power supply, though :) Apr 05 11:27:16 that'd be nice Apr 05 11:27:34 azaghal: to your notebook? Apr 05 11:27:36 shouldn't be to much of a prob I think... the data lines are separate Apr 05 11:27:41 PBeck: To FR :) Apr 05 11:27:51 why? Apr 05 11:27:54 No idea how much power bluetooth consumes. Apr 05 11:28:00 i think the chip is very accurat Apr 05 11:28:07 Nah, not that. Apr 05 11:28:14 With GPS battery can last ~2-3 hours only. Apr 05 11:28:25 Bro's external GPS can last for ~6-7 hours. Apr 05 11:28:41 azaghal: you mean only the battery time? Apr 05 11:28:47 Yes. Apr 05 11:28:52 i think it will be longer that 2-3 hours Apr 05 11:29:08 Well, 2-3 hours is what apm used to show me. Apr 05 11:29:27 i have it not testest but after 2-3 hours my freerunner was only on 50% Apr 05 11:29:32 *tested Apr 05 11:29:33 But I'm impressed how much it can last with wifi on. (8-9 hours with screen brightness at 30%) Apr 05 11:29:52 Actually, my Nokia 6300 tends to deplete battery very fast when the screen is kept lit. Apr 05 11:31:33 Wonka: is there anything that uses OSM MBP? Apr 05 11:31:38 i'd like to get me some USB charger device built that uses AA cells or something... Apr 05 11:31:43 external battery pack Apr 05 11:31:47 lindi-: i don't know Apr 05 11:32:49 Wonka: i bought my usb battery for $14 Apr 05 11:33:28 lindi-: but I am (sometimes) working on "zgps" - ripped the GPS part of zhone out and started extending that - and am thinking about putting tracking and map viewing into that so that i won't need tangogps any more Apr 05 11:33:43 http://www.ladyada.net/make/mintyboost/index.html Wonka Apr 05 11:33:57 Wonka: why not just work on navit? Apr 05 11:34:06 Wonka: navit already supports many map formats already afaik Apr 05 11:34:13 Wonka: perhaps you can use pylgrm? Apr 05 11:34:23 lindi-: i'd like to have an "all in one" gps app Apr 05 11:34:51 PBeck: nice device Apr 05 11:35:16 Wonka: isn't navit trying to do that? Apr 05 11:36:05 and "all in one" sounds difficult. "do one thing and do it well" is much easier to understand and develop Apr 05 11:36:06 lindi-: hm, does navit show satellite signal strengths, satellite positions? Apr 05 11:36:32 Wonka: not sure, wouldn't be too difficult to add though? Apr 05 11:36:45 http://scap.linuxtogo.org/files/bb0143acc306410e938f25756f626e40.png Wonka pygrm, but it uses pyneo Apr 05 11:37:17 so you have different map providers - but pylgrm only shows it - pymapd do the work in the backgroun Apr 05 11:37:31 http://scap.linuxtogo.org/files/2c3cbcc15cd10b8488a0bc376fcf6eb8.png Apr 05 11:37:56 lindi-: http://chaos.in-kiel.de/~w/openmoko/zhone-modwonka-left.png http://chaos.in-kiel.de/~w/openmoko/zhone-modwonka.png Apr 05 11:38:03 hi Apr 05 11:38:04 http://www.millions.ca/~stacy/mintyboost/ <= mintyboost with freerunner Apr 05 11:38:05 Wonka: There's some link on wiki for external battery pack for FR :) Apr 05 11:38:06 lindi-: woulnd't want to lose those Apr 05 11:38:31 lindi-: Define "USB battery", please :) Apr 05 11:38:59 PBeck: quite nice one Apr 05 11:39:41 so i will go offline now Apr 05 11:39:42 bye bye Apr 05 11:39:43 PBeck: you are near hamburg? i am near Kiel... Apr 05 11:39:56 Wonka: i am near stuttgart ;) Apr 05 11:39:56 azaghal: http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.3060 Rechargeable USB Emergency Power Backup Pack 2400mAh $14.43 Apr 05 11:40:00 PBeck: :( Apr 05 11:40:12 Wonka: wouldn't it be easy to have those as separate apps? Apr 05 11:40:17 Thanks Apr 05 11:40:31 Wonka: but i gives a few people where lives in hamburg ;) Apr 05 11:40:35 *it Apr 05 11:40:35 lindi-: that's what i have now Apr 05 11:40:58 Man, it'll be hard for me to pass customs on my way back from USA :D Apr 05 11:41:07 lindi-: i "just" need some decent map viewing app now Apr 05 11:41:20 lindi-: What size is it? Apr 05 11:41:26 Wonka: navit :) Apr 05 11:41:28 lindi-: tangogps does much, but it's not really perfect Apr 05 11:41:31 http://fyp-map.relei.de/ <= Wonka Apr 05 11:41:53 azaghal: smaller than fr :) Apr 05 11:42:10 PBeck: not much up here... Apr 05 11:42:11 Nice, I might end-up buying two. Apr 05 11:42:15 Wonka: yes ;) Apr 05 11:42:30 Time to figure out if I can have it shipped to a hotel ;) Apr 05 11:42:52 so i go offline bye bye Wonka ;) Apr 05 11:42:58 hf Apr 05 11:56:56 hello. do you know where I can download the celldb either from cellhunter or opencellid ? I can't find any working link on their websites... Apr 05 11:58:02 there is a "download db" on cellhunter, but the php script times out very quickly ... Apr 05 11:59:03 munga: opencellid.org has a link surely? Apr 05 11:59:21 munga: the 'raw data' link Apr 05 11:59:36 :D Apr 05 11:59:46 Wish onen was here :P Apr 05 11:59:59 hm. anyone got any idea how i can find a mem leak in a python app? Apr 05 12:01:06 Good luck :D Apr 05 12:03:02 lindi-: I'm sorry but I can't see on their page ... Am I being stupid ? Apr 05 12:03:33 munga: try using lynx or elinks Apr 05 12:03:52 starts with VIRT 25524 RSS 14276... Apr 05 12:03:56 yes... I guess that was the problem !! thanks Apr 05 12:04:06 :P Apr 05 12:07:51 im too stupid to get gcc working on shr testing Apr 05 12:08:25 where is the assembler? Apr 05 12:31:07 freesmartphone.org: 03mickey 07cornucopia * r9fec63410b6a 10/ (.gitignore docs/frameworkd.conf.sample): add sample configuration Apr 05 12:42:33 freesmartphone.org: 03mickey 07cornucopia * r5b71dd4e432b 10/libfsoframework/fsoframework/subsystem.vala: fsoframework: subsystem: s/error/logger.warning/ Apr 05 13:12:51 is there any good news about gta02v7 (a buzz free phnoe)? Apr 05 13:14:06 i don't think openmoko are making phones anymore Apr 05 13:14:21 simoo: they do Apr 05 13:14:24 02 is still in production Apr 05 13:14:27 as are parts Apr 05 13:14:37 simoo: they still sell gta02 and will produce it more if there is a demand Apr 05 13:14:41 oh that's good news Apr 05 13:15:23 I didn't understand the article properly cos it needed to be translated Apr 05 13:15:35 Yeah, they're just not _designing_ a new phone right now. If they survive, which I hope they will, but am uncertain, they'll likely return to that at some point. Apr 05 13:15:47 Or the article was wrong, as usually all the articles are. Apr 05 13:16:14 Buzz problem was hardware problem in the end? Apr 05 13:16:28 so development on the freerunner has stopped and development on a new phone has stopped but they will continue to make the freerunner? Apr 05 13:16:29 azaghal: sure, it's known for more than half a year already. Apr 05 13:16:34 mjr: Wait, they're not closing down OpenMoko Inc then? Apr 05 13:16:43 simoo: the development of freerunner software is not stopped. Apr 05 13:16:44 PaulFertser: Shucks :/ Apr 05 13:17:10 PaulFertser: just cut back> Apr 05 13:17:12 but will they update gta02v6 with the bugfix around the buzz (also known as gta02v7)? Apr 05 13:17:13 azaghal, they're not. Yet, at least. Apr 05 13:17:19 stopped is ONLY development of GTA03 Apr 05 13:17:28 GTA02 is fine ;p Apr 05 13:17:46 I'm glad to hear that :) Apr 05 13:17:47 Well, it's not fine, but it's "okay". Apr 05 13:17:51 Ok, I had the impression they're stopping development altogether. There's gotta be some English-written article out there. Apr 05 13:18:09 read my blog post Apr 05 13:18:25 dos1: I will not say that gta02 is fine becouse it still have hardware bugs (buzz bug) Apr 05 13:18:26 could you give me a link? Apr 05 13:18:35 top on planet.openmoko.org atm. Apr 05 13:18:46 beer_: i mean development of gta02 is fine, as it isn't stopped Apr 05 13:18:47 beer_: but gta02V7 Apr 05 13:18:58 thanks Apr 05 13:19:57 beer_: there will be even gta02v8, so gta02 developing is fine ;p Apr 05 13:26:33 just /. news isn't real news. Apr 05 13:45:21 mmm community updates. or. the reason I live Apr 05 13:50:55 * Dave laughs at Selig Apr 05 14:18:59 freesmartphone.org: 03mickey 07cornucopia * rbecf32ee86b4 10/fsodeviced/src/plugins/kernel26_leds/plugin.vala: fsodevice: kernel26_leds: complete SetNetworking, SetBrightness cleans trigger now. Apr 05 14:28:16 I will just hear how many in here is gonan by a new phone after latest information about OM? Apr 05 14:30:24 Not me :) Apr 05 14:30:57 I _have_ one. Apr 05 14:31:09 What I need to buy is a dozen or two of batteries just in case :) Apr 05 14:31:30 In fact, OpenMoko Inc. might make more money now selling batteries etc than Neo Freerunners now ;) Apr 05 14:33:19 freesmartphone.org: 03mickey 07cornucopia * r07029d0443a9 10/fsogsmd/ (6 files in 4 dirs): fsogsmd: start with TI Calypso Modem Plugin Apr 05 14:33:38 freesmartphone.org: 03mickey 07cornucopia * r832bb431242d 10/TODO: add TODO Apr 05 14:34:33 Argh, alioth.debian.org is down and now my apt-cacher-ng is confused as hell :) Apr 05 14:36:44 freesmartphone.org: 03mickey 07cornucopia * rc37b8ea98fad 10/fsogsmd/src/plugins/modem_ti_calypso/ (Makefile.am plugin.vala): fsogsmd: add missing modem_ti_calypso files Apr 05 14:43:01 http://mobile.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=09/04/04/228240 Apr 05 14:43:04 is this true? Apr 05 14:43:04 ;[ Apr 05 14:44:28 yes and no Apr 05 14:44:33 the article doens't quite cut it Apr 05 14:45:50 i c. Apr 05 14:45:57 well what's the yes/no? Apr 05 14:45:58 ;] Apr 05 14:46:07 raster, here? Apr 05 14:46:18 I think I have a clue concerning utf input. Apr 05 14:52:58 why doesn't it cut it? Apr 05 14:53:36 it says that it'll be discontinued Apr 05 14:55:02 TAsn: ja? Apr 05 14:55:07 dyf: ? Apr 05 14:55:15 look, xev output: Apr 05 14:55:27 state 0x0, keycode 249 (keysym 0xcec, hebrew_lamed), same_screen YES, Apr 05 14:55:27 XLookupString gives 0 bytes: Apr 05 14:55:52 for some reason xlookupstring can not get the associated string Apr 05 14:55:54 aaah xlookupstrting is failing Apr 05 14:55:57 raster: http://mobile.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=09/04/04/228240 Apr 05 14:55:58 that just mean you should buy more phomes wile you can Apr 05 14:55:58 thats why Apr 05 14:56:03 isn't that a locale issue? Apr 05 14:56:10 dyf: ooh that. old news. Apr 05 14:56:15 raster, do you know how to fix it? Apr 05 14:56:19 TAsn: to be honest.. i don't know Apr 05 14:56:29 hehe #xorg are not helping either Apr 05 14:56:34 actually they are ignoring me ;[ Apr 05 14:56:38 raster: April 4 is old news? Apr 05 14:56:58 raster, what's xlookupstring db? Apr 05 14:57:03 TAsn: ecore_x wraps that Apr 05 14:57:12 it uses Xutf8LookupString() if available Apr 05 14:57:25 if not - it tries XmbLookupString() Apr 05 14:57:28 raster, I don't care about ecore_x yet, as it seems, it's a "deeper" problem. Apr 05 14:57:33 oooh wait Apr 05 14:57:40 ? Apr 05 14:57:42 it only does so.. if _ecore_x_ic Apr 05 14:57:47 ie if an input method exists Apr 05 14:59:03 Rasterize! Apr 05 15:00:53 TAsn: theres more than 1 way to get the string from a keypress Apr 05 15:00:57 * SeligArkin wonders why she was being laughed at Apr 05 15:01:01 XLookupString Apr 05 15:01:04 XmbLookupString Apr 05 15:01:07 Xutf8LookupString Apr 05 15:01:09 yeah, I know. Apr 05 15:01:10 :) Apr 05 15:01:14 though where do they get their data from? Apr 05 15:01:26 the 10th dimention Apr 05 15:01:27 from deep in x's own lookup tables Apr 05 15:01:43 that map modifiers + keysym to a string Apr 05 15:04:10 and where does that get it's data from? Apr 05 15:04:13 it must come from somewhere Apr 05 15:04:25 i have never tracked it Apr 05 15:04:27 something must be different from my desktop computer. Apr 05 15:04:38 I am just wondering if (or when) the Neo Freerunner comunity will die after the annoncement Apr 05 15:06:52 TAsn: you mean it works on your desktop? Apr 05 15:07:18 beer_: hope it stays alive.. because there are plans outside of om to do a new open phone Apr 05 15:07:30 raster Apr 05 15:07:32 not Apr 05 15:07:33 no* Apr 05 15:07:36 haven't tested Apr 05 15:07:51 I just mean my keyboard works on my desktop Apr 05 15:07:59 and they are both sending the same keysym. Apr 05 15:08:00 ... Apr 05 15:08:06 (different states though) Apr 05 15:08:28 raste: where? and will he hardware be bether than Freerunner (with more nice stuff)? Apr 05 15:08:29 and of course, different keycodes. Apr 05 15:09:32 beer_: i wouldnt bother being invovled unless it was better. i'm invovled. where - around. people talking. the problem is money. we can talk and discuss all we want. without seriously large wads of cash - this cant go to production. Apr 05 15:09:41 TAsn: fyi i can type russian letters with matchbox-keyboard in rxvt-unicode. Apr 05 15:09:52 it's not like software where everyone can just sink some time into it in their bedroom Apr 05 15:10:06 I can type hebrew letters with gtk ... Apr 05 15:10:11 gtk apps* Apr 05 15:10:17 hardware is different as its physical and invovles buying things like components, and has assembly and production costs. totally different to software Apr 05 15:10:38 TAsn: i seriously am not sure Apr 05 15:10:40 the problem is that gtk apps translate keysyms on their own for some reason (or so I think) Apr 05 15:10:48 xlookupstring is returnign null Apr 05 15:10:49 though they shouldn't Apr 05 15:10:50 thats why Apr 05 15:10:52 no string Apr 05 15:10:54 raster, I know. Apr 05 15:10:58 it's something with X. Apr 05 15:11:12 and ecore_x has no inpute method handler to use Xutf8LookupString or XmbLookupString with Apr 05 15:11:35 (inptu methods are used for complex input like japanese/korean/chinese etc.) Apr 05 15:17:07 I know, that's why I'm trying to look into xlookupstring's code now. Apr 05 15:18:27 i've never really looked Apr 05 15:18:35 my guess is.. this is beyond what it can do? Apr 05 15:18:40 (by default) Apr 05 15:18:47 and gtk is falling back to other methods? Apr 05 15:26:33 The battery of my Neo has swelled a bit (I can't close the cover fully anymore) and I have trouble booting the phone I managed once, then it quickly died, and I managed again after charging it for a few hours... Maybe I need a new battery? Hm... Apr 05 15:27:56 swollen batteries are most probably defective Apr 05 15:28:07 go get it exchanged Apr 05 15:28:43 raster, gtk works great Apr 05 15:28:50 though I think it translates by it's own. Apr 05 15:34:50 TAsn: crap. thats a bug translation table to add Apr 05 15:35:34 raster, I'm not sure I got you, please rephrase. Apr 05 15:35:55 thrashold: Holly poop - don't use that battery, get it out and throw it away. Apr 05 15:36:02 swolen batteries are potentially dangerous, and should never, ever be used. Apr 05 15:36:13 Or stored on anything you don't care about if it goes on fire. Apr 05 15:36:48 TAsn: When you say gtk, do you mean some other keyboard used with gtk or Illume keyboard with gtk? Apr 05 15:37:13 Btw, I made Serbian layout and I was happy as a dog before it turned out it doesn't really work :) Apr 05 15:37:18 Renders very nicely, though ;) Apr 05 15:37:34 azaghal, illume keyborad with gtk apps... Apr 05 15:37:44 we are only talking about the illume keyboard. Apr 05 15:37:51 now when I say gtk translates Apr 05 15:37:55 I mean the actual lib. Apr 05 15:37:59 Ah... I thought that Illume Keyboard was the problem at the time. Apr 05 15:38:09 TAsn: map every available and possibly extended x keysyms + every modifier Apr 05 15:38:11 I bet they do that for supporting their own keyboard layout handling. Apr 05 15:38:26 (shit, ctrl, alt, and combos thereof (win, meta, hyper...) Apr 05 15:38:37 raster, ok, and you think it's broken? Apr 05 15:38:46 TAsn: Just to double-check, gtk apps work (as in non-latin chars) with illume-keyboard or...? Apr 05 15:38:54 azaghal, yeah. Apr 05 15:38:57 they do work. Apr 05 15:38:59 hmm Apr 05 15:39:07 no i just think it may be a limitation of xlib Apr 05 15:39:12 Hm... Wait, I what didn't work when I tried it? I think it was shift+key? Apr 05 15:39:13 though.. i suspect it shoudl work Apr 05 15:39:25 but i cant try it for myself Apr 05 15:39:29 Now that I think about it, some things worked, some didn't. Apr 05 15:39:34 no idea if it shoudl work on a "properly installed system" Apr 05 15:39:44 What if we replace Xglamo with X.org? Apr 05 15:40:41 azaghal, isn't that the same? Apr 05 15:40:46 (a fork) Apr 05 15:40:56 No idea, I'm unsure. Apr 05 15:41:15 X.org is probably more complete? Apr 05 15:41:58 freesmartphone.org: 03mickey 07cornucopia * r869cca2ff71a 10/fsogsmd/src/plugins/gsm_device/plugin.vala: fsogsm: try to instanciate modem plugin, if found Apr 05 15:41:59 freesmartphone.org: 03mickey 07cornucopia * r69a969feef27 10/fsogsmd/ (4 files in 3 dirs): fsogsmd: add build skeleton for modem_cinterion_mc75 Apr 05 15:42:01 bah, it's taking forever to clone the libx11 git server... ;[ Apr 05 15:43:11 Trying this on Debian might prove easier. Apr 05 15:43:28 haha cloning the cgit with wget ;] Apr 05 15:43:56 azaghal: this is primarily lib/client side Apr 05 15:43:58 not server Apr 05 15:44:14 Ok Apr 05 15:44:14 and kdrive is jhust another server built off the same code as xorg Apr 05 15:45:07 well raster Apr 05 15:45:15 at least we found the problem ;] Apr 05 15:45:20 now we only need to fix it ;] Apr 05 15:45:27 yeah Apr 05 15:45:30 but it makes sense Apr 05 15:45:41 what makes sense? Apr 05 15:45:46 btw, isn't that locale related? Apr 05 15:45:51 the event loop is asking xlib "what is the string of this keypress" and xlib is saying "" Apr 05 15:45:57 oh, yeah Apr 05 15:46:02 I know it makes sense. Apr 05 15:46:14 that's why I checked it in the first place Apr 05 15:46:28 I figured something is inheritly broken. Apr 05 15:46:35 as such F1, F2, and others keys have no string Apr 05 15:46:37 so u have to ask Apr 05 15:46:43 u cant just use the keysym Apr 05 15:46:51 comma -> "," Apr 05 15:46:53 for example Apr 05 15:47:01 as for locale Apr 05 15:47:03 not sure Apr 05 15:47:07 i really dont know Apr 05 15:48:40 same here Apr 05 15:48:43 and as I said Apr 05 15:48:49 #xorg guys aren't helping ;[ Apr 05 15:48:53 TAsn: btw, do you know about git shallow clones? It's faster to download only several latest revisions. Apr 05 15:49:03 PaulFertser, wtf?! Apr 05 15:49:04 how? Apr 05 15:49:04 ;] Apr 05 15:49:30 TAsn: --depth Apr 05 15:50:16 I can do --depth HEAD? Apr 05 15:50:26 TAsn: --depth 1 Apr 05 15:50:31 nice. Apr 05 15:50:35 thanks. Apr 05 15:51:16 TAsn: anyway you'll need xlib sources, not xserver. Apr 05 15:51:34 i know... Apr 05 15:52:42 TAsn: and afair, kdrive is something very experimental and probably it doesn't share any code with x.org. At least xmodmap doesn't work there properly. Apr 05 15:53:01 ;\ Apr 05 15:53:10 so you think it's a kdrive issue? Apr 05 15:54:09 Keyboard support Apr 05 15:54:09 At the time of writing, the KDrive server only has support for a generic Linux keyboard; the keyboard mapping is copied from the Linux kernel tables at startup. As X11 has richer keyboard information than Linux, and furthermore KDrive's mapping tables are incomplete, the results are not always perfect; I have found it necessary to fix my keyboard using xmodmap Apr 05 15:54:18 from kdrive's website. Apr 05 15:55:04 kdrive included in latests xserver Apr 05 15:55:13 oops, not from their website. Apr 05 15:55:15 TAsn: i guess i can test with xorg. Apr 05 15:55:22 as jyst specific hw Apr 05 15:55:28 you have illume+xorg installed? Apr 05 15:56:29 TAsn: i've just tried illume from the Debian repo and yes, i have it installed. BTW, do you think russian input should work in Zhone? It doesn't work for me with matchbox-keyboard iirc. Apr 05 15:56:53 PaulFertser, may be a font issue Apr 05 15:57:00 I don't yet know anything. Apr 05 15:57:01 ;] Apr 05 15:57:41 TAsn: font? No, i see russian in received messages without issues. Apr 05 15:58:01 i c. Apr 05 15:58:08 no idea then. ;] Apr 05 15:58:28 I have an idea, I'll try a normal keyboard. Apr 05 15:58:29 sec. Apr 05 16:05:06 shit Apr 05 16:05:09 no usb keyboard Apr 05 16:05:43 I just read that FreeRunner is discontinued. That's no real surprise to me. I bought it as my first and only phone and because of the non-existence of open source alternatives, but I never considered the FreeRunner to be a real phone anyway. Now it happens to be more like a buggy prequel to the real first open source phone, the Palm Pre. Thanks to Openmoko anyway for allowing me to make, receive and miss some open source phone calls i Apr 05 16:06:11 uhsf: bullshit Apr 05 16:06:43 uhsf: FreeRunner is continued; GTA03 is discontinued Apr 05 16:10:12 TAsn: just tried with matchbox-keyboard and xorg. The result is the same. Apr 05 16:10:22 tried xev? Apr 05 16:10:31 oh, with xorg? Apr 05 16:10:34 TAsn: state 0x100, keycode 253 (keysym 0x100043f, U043F), same_screen YES, XLookupString gives 0 bytes: XmbLookupString gives 0 bytes: Apr 05 16:10:36 real xorg? Apr 05 16:10:52 TAsn: real xorg with framebuffer Apr 05 16:10:52 hm, try the same thing on your computer please Apr 05 16:11:03 here it shows the keysym's name. Apr 05 16:11:38 TAsn: state 0x2000, keycode 38 (keysym 0x6c6, Cyrillic_ef), same_screen YES, XLookupString gives 1 bytes: (c6) "Æ" (that's using a real keyboard, not matchbox-keyboard) Apr 05 16:11:50 real keyboard on the moko? Apr 05 16:12:02 TAsn: on my computer like you asked :) Apr 05 16:12:08 ok. Apr 05 16:12:11 just wondered ;] Apr 05 16:12:15 TAsn: i've not connected anything to my FR yet. Apr 05 16:12:23 TAsn: have all the components, but no motivation. Apr 05 16:12:23 it seems something is broken in you xorg Apr 05 16:12:29 (keysym 0x100043f, U043F) Apr 05 16:12:29 ;\ Apr 05 16:12:31 *your Apr 05 16:12:34 TAsn: and in your kdrive too ;) Apr 05 16:12:46 two different broken stuff though ;] Apr 05 16:14:25 TAsn: it's two different things. On desktop "state 0x2000, keycode 38", on virtual keyboard on FR it's "state 0x100, keycode 253" (probably not the same key, but both in russian layout). Apr 05 16:15:10 TAsn: on my PC i switch layout prior to typing russian. matchbox-keyboard sends the result directly in utf-8. Apr 05 16:15:30 TAsn: matchbox-keyboard-ui.c:223,mb_kbd_ui_send_press() Sending 'а' Apr 05 16:16:23 i c. Apr 05 16:16:30 illume keyboard doesn't Apr 05 16:16:40 illume keyboard acts as a keyboard Apr 05 16:16:49 from what I can tell. Apr 05 16:16:57 mb does too Apr 05 16:17:03 check libfakekey Apr 05 16:17:57 anyway Apr 05 16:18:00 2:20am Apr 05 16:18:03 must zzzzzzzzzzzzzz Apr 05 16:18:05 * raster zzzzzzzzzzzzzz's Apr 05 16:18:10 raster: good night :) Apr 05 16:18:15 night Apr 05 16:19:12 Rakshasa, night Apr 05 16:19:15 bah Apr 05 16:19:26 s/Rakshasa/raster/ Apr 05 16:19:55 TAsn: maybe you want to check urxvt sources to see how it handles the input? Apr 05 16:20:07 not related Apr 05 16:20:17 it's gtk which handles input Apr 05 16:20:22 and gtk translates by it's own. Apr 05 16:22:56 PaulFertser, any idea what could the abbreviation Xim might mean? Apr 05 16:22:59 TAsn: xterm in utf8 works for me too. Apr 05 16:23:23 i see at a lot as function prefix. Apr 05 16:23:26 TAsn: and "which xterm | grep gtk" gives nothing of course. Apr 05 16:23:26 TAsn: so it's not gtk-related. Apr 05 16:23:48 yeah. Apr 05 16:23:50 hm... Apr 05 16:23:56 I wonder. Apr 05 16:24:14 http://cgit.freedesktop.org/xorg/lib Apr 05 16:24:24 which will contain xim in your opinion? Apr 05 16:24:24 ;] Apr 05 16:24:43 TAsn: x input method? Apr 05 16:24:51 i thought so Apr 05 16:24:56 though libXi doesn't contain it. Apr 05 16:24:57 ;\ Apr 05 16:25:19 Noone has actually made a buzz fix wiki page with links to all the photos people post? Apr 05 16:25:30 Is there such a thing as the "official buzz fix guide"? :) Apr 05 16:25:33 TAsn: that's to enter some complex characters (like chinese) with the help of external program to show some cool panel and help enter pinin. Apr 05 16:26:06 Gromgull: sure, Joerg's SOP can be considered almost official guide. Apr 05 16:26:20 http://people.openmoko.org/joerg/GSM_EMI_noise/ this one? Apr 05 16:26:23 bah. Apr 05 16:26:30 I guess that's it Apr 05 16:26:30 yup Apr 05 16:26:31 thanks! Apr 05 16:26:32 then where will they be at? Apr 05 16:26:45 TAsn: who? ;) Apr 05 16:26:55 the xim* functions Apr 05 16:27:15 freesmartphone.org: 03mickey 07cornucopia * ra99a4f2a80b0 10/libfsoframework/ (7 files in 2 dirs): fsoframework: add FsoFramework.BaseObject, handling configuration and logging Apr 05 16:27:25 TAsn: why do you care? Apr 05 16:27:51 i'm trying to figure out Apr 05 16:27:59 where xlookupstring takes it's data from. Apr 05 16:28:04 I really think this may be a locale issue. Apr 05 16:28:12 TAsn: (-- Is it a national habit to ask questions in response to questions? -- Well, why do you ask? ) Apr 05 16:28:34 PaulFertser, ;] Apr 05 16:29:30 TAsn: then why xterm doesn't care and inserts the right character? Apr 05 16:32:19 no idea. Apr 05 16:32:30 that's what I'm trying to figure out. Apr 05 16:35:15 freesmartphone.org: 03mickey 07cornucopia * ra1df1974764a 10/libfsoframework/ (4 files in 2 dirs): Apr 05 16:35:15 freesmartphone.org: fsoframework: AbstractObject: define basic repr() function and set ReprDelegate in construct Apr 05 16:35:15 freesmartphone.org: classes deriving from AbstractObject need to define their own repr function Apr 05 16:39:45 TAsn: btw, rxvt-unicode doesn't work for me. Only xterm does. (on freerunner) One more thing to think about... Apr 05 16:40:05 yeah Apr 05 16:40:11 I googled and saw something about that Apr 05 16:40:18 can't remember what Apr 05 16:40:26 though rxvt wasn't working with kdrive Apr 05 16:43:37 PaulFertser, are kdrive's libx11 and regular libx11 the same? Apr 05 16:44:12 TAsn: kdrive and xorg are servers. libx11 is client lib. Apr 05 16:44:23 oh Apr 05 16:44:31 i thought kdrive is a whole implementation. Apr 05 16:44:33 cool enough. Apr 05 16:45:07 TAsn: it's server implementation, yes. BTW, do you know that alternative to Xlib exists, it's called Xcb? Apr 05 16:45:22 oh, I heard about that Apr 05 16:45:27 do we use it on the moko? Apr 05 16:45:47 TAsn: any X app is free to use it. Apr 05 16:46:23 but do we? Apr 05 16:46:45 there's also pure java implementation of X client libraries Apr 05 16:48:31 TAsn: if i undestand it correctly it's only apps issue, which X lib it is using Apr 05 16:48:58 TAsn: so when we are instaling pidgin on moko, which is Xlib based, we are using Xlib Apr 05 16:49:14 TAsn: and when we are installing another app on moko, which is Xcb based, we are using Xcb too Apr 05 16:49:15 oh ok. Apr 05 16:49:57 TAsn: xcb is installed on my Debian. Can't figure what depends on it yet. Apr 05 16:51:11 ii xcb 2.4-4+b1 Pigeon holes for your cut and paste selections Apr 05 16:51:14 that one? ;) Apr 05 16:52:02 lindi-: no, libxcb1 Apr 05 16:54:59 PaulFertser: libx11-6 depends on libxcb1 Apr 05 16:56:11 lindi-: would you please share the command so i'll be able to find things like that myself? Apr 05 16:57:19 PaulFertser: iki.fi/lindi/what-depends-on Apr 05 16:58:32 lindi-: wonderful, thanks :) Apr 05 17:01:38 ahoi Apr 05 17:07:21 ok Apr 05 17:07:28 i'm 99.99% sure it's a locale issue! Apr 05 17:07:47 TAsn: it's possible that xterm uses Xutf8LookupString, (which xev doesn't try) Apr 05 17:08:06 but e also uses that Apr 05 17:08:18 and here at home xlookupstring does work. Apr 05 17:08:24 PaulFertser, I think it's a locale issue Apr 05 17:08:28 we need a utf8 locale Apr 05 17:09:51 TAsn: yep, just tried with xev, it works! Apr 05 17:10:00 what works? Apr 05 17:10:05 locale? Apr 05 17:10:20 TAsn: XLookupString gives 2 bytes: (d0 bf) "п" Apr 05 17:10:28 where can I get myself a utf8 locale?! the moko doesn't even have locale-gen Apr 05 17:10:30 PaulFertser, locale? Apr 05 17:10:36 TAsn: after starting in en_US.utf8 locale Apr 05 17:10:41 bah Apr 05 17:10:43 TAsn: Debian does have it ;) Apr 05 17:10:51 I actually mailed a friend today Apr 05 17:10:59 saying I know how to solve the hebrew input issue Apr 05 17:11:04 (sent the mail this morning) Apr 05 17:11:09 telling him it's a locale issue Apr 05 17:11:18 I can't believe I was right and haven't tried it until now! Apr 05 17:11:19 ;[ Apr 05 17:12:33 TAsn: input is zhone doesn't work though. Apr 05 17:12:44 i don't use zhone ;] Apr 05 17:14:39 TAsn: so yes, locale issue confirmed :) Nice you found it! Apr 05 17:14:53 but I need a utf8 locale ;[ Apr 05 17:15:05 but great.! ;] Apr 05 17:15:08 I'm glad. Apr 05 17:34:34 PaulFertser, hey, what did you do that worked with the utf8 locale? Apr 05 17:35:03 TAsn: export LC_ALL=en_US.UTF-8 Apr 05 17:35:53 hm... trying. Apr 05 17:36:00 freesmartphone.org: 03mickey 07cornucopia * rb105ab8ff7d5 10/fsogsmd/src/ (4 files in 4 dirs): fsogsmd: refactor for FsoFramework.AbstractObject and FsoGsm.AbstractModem Apr 05 17:36:23 nope Apr 05 17:36:28 no success here Apr 05 17:36:35 although I thought I generated a proper locale. Apr 05 17:36:36 ;\ Apr 05 17:36:38 TAsn: locale -a output? Apr 05 17:36:59 i generated it by hand Apr 05 17:37:00 TAsn: i mean, it should include the locale you want to use. And then you need to start xev from the same terminal to have LC_ALL set. Apr 05 17:37:03 and called it just en_US Apr 05 17:37:10 without the .utf-8 Apr 05 17:37:44 TAsn: i doubt that's a correct way to do it. Apr 05 17:38:34 ;\ Apr 05 17:39:19 TAsn: why can't you use locale-gen? Apr 05 17:39:29 there's no such app/package available. Apr 05 17:40:16 TAsn: it's a simple bash script that uses localedef. Apr 05 17:43:31 thanks for the tip Apr 05 17:43:32 trying. Apr 05 17:44:46 hi all Apr 05 17:44:54 how can I get qmake on OM? Apr 05 17:46:51 PaulFertser, no go. Apr 05 17:46:55 generated locales Apr 05 17:47:00 set LC_ALL Apr 05 17:47:04 ran xev Apr 05 17:47:07 nothing. Apr 05 17:47:20 locale -a includes the wanted locale. Apr 05 17:48:57 TAsn: does it have utf8 at the end? Apr 05 17:49:31 duh. Apr 05 17:50:04 TAsn: i don't know, it works for me... Apr 05 17:51:16 TAsn: btw, when you set LC_ALL, you better use en_US.UTF-8, not en_US.utf8. The second might not work, i think i had some issues when configured my laptop with gentoo. Apr 05 17:51:27 tried both. Apr 05 17:52:08 on the other hand, I'm not using matchbox keyboard... Apr 05 17:54:49 PaulFertser, russian keyboard, right? Apr 05 17:55:02 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4k40WhlST3w Apr 05 17:55:18 PaulFertser, trying out a russian keyboard... ;] Apr 05 17:55:35 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nskjem5Zo_k Apr 05 17:56:06 PaulFertser, It could be also a keymap issue. Apr 05 17:56:39 TAsn: yeah, russian matchbox-keyboard :) Apr 05 17:57:05 well I'm trying the russing illume keyboard ;] Apr 05 17:57:10 just to make sure. Apr 05 18:01:55 PaulFertser, mind showing me a full output line? Apr 05 18:01:58 (of xev) Apr 05 18:03:48 TAsn: http://pastebin.com/m1ee7bed0 Apr 05 18:03:54 thanks Apr 05 18:07:53 :o Apr 05 18:13:36 hello, does anybody know something about this development? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yr821OgnvYc Apr 05 18:14:10 where can I get an image I wanne check it out Apr 05 18:14:35 freesmartphone.org: 03mickey 07cornucopia * r52ba0881fe3b 10/fsogsmd/ (6 files in 5 dirs): fsogsmd: add singleline modem abstraction Apr 05 18:21:47 PaulFertser, It's still not working. ;\ Apr 05 18:23:14 TAsn: XLookupString still doesn't lookup, i assume... :-/ Apr 05 18:23:25 aye. Apr 05 18:24:46 TAsn: if you start xterm with the LC_ALL set, do you see any errors? Does "locale" works properly in the started terminal? Apr 05 18:24:56 I wonder if I broken something without noticing. Apr 05 18:25:02 PaulFertser, don't have xterm. Apr 05 18:25:11 TAsn: well, urxvt? Apr 05 18:25:14 though I don't get errors when doing locale Apr 05 18:25:19 PaulFertser, only vala-terminal ;] Apr 05 18:25:31 and it's working great with heb Apr 05 18:25:32 TAsn: usually xlib programs complain when you try to start them in an unsupported locale. Apr 05 18:25:40 though iirc it worked before. Apr 05 18:25:45 TAsn: RTL? Apr 05 18:25:49 no Apr 05 18:27:32 omg Apr 05 18:27:42 i didn't have libx11-locale installed Apr 05 18:27:46 retrying. Apr 05 18:28:23 YAY~!!! Apr 05 18:28:25 ;];];];];];] Apr 05 18:28:41 TAsn: how did you find that? Apr 05 18:28:49 what? not having it? Apr 05 18:28:57 opkg list | grep locale Apr 05 18:29:02 and went through all the packages Apr 05 18:29:06 checking what I may miss Apr 05 18:29:08 TAsn: why you thought it's needed? Apr 05 18:29:17 actually, I passed by it a couple of times Apr 05 18:29:24 thinking it's probably installed already Apr 05 18:29:29 though it WASNT Apr 05 18:29:30 wtf?! Apr 05 18:31:13 finally shr with unicode Apr 05 18:31:18 i'll tell them! Apr 05 18:31:34 Ahahah Apr 05 18:32:26 PaulFertser, I'm so happy!!!! ;] Apr 05 18:32:28 man Apr 05 18:32:30 finally! Apr 05 18:32:48 after i'll send the e rtl patch Apr 05 18:32:55 my life will be a lot easier!!! Apr 05 18:32:55 ;] Apr 05 18:33:08 TAsn: i'm so happy cause today i found my friends, they're in my head... Apr 05 18:33:16 hehe Apr 05 18:33:20 just thought about that myself Apr 05 18:33:21 ;] Apr 05 18:33:23 freesmartphone.org: 03mickey 07cornucopia * rf1de0ae29da3 10/libfsoframework/fsoframework/ (fsoframework-2.0.gir fsoframework-2.0.vapi transport.vala): fsoframework: transport: add setDelegates to Transport interface Apr 05 18:33:24 freesmartphone.org: 03mickey 07cornucopia * r77cac891a35f 10/fsogsmd/src/ (4 files in 3 dirs): fsogsmd: open serial transport and enqueue a test command Apr 05 18:33:50 TAsn: (e rtl) do you have something in the works? Apr 05 18:33:56 not in the works Apr 05 18:33:57 done Apr 05 18:33:57 ;] Apr 05 18:33:59 I'm using it Apr 05 18:34:00 ;] Apr 05 18:34:10 well not 100% Apr 05 18:34:13 Wow Apr 05 18:34:13 though 99% Apr 05 18:34:18 rtl works Apr 05 18:34:24 though auto alignment doesn't, yet. Apr 05 18:34:35 TAsn: why doesn't you use plain old english for SMSes instead? ;) Apr 05 18:34:39 that'll require a big change. Apr 05 18:34:59 PaulFertser, girls find that patronizing and annoying. Apr 05 18:35:08 lol Apr 05 18:37:22 I'm building a pack to do everything automatically. ;] Apr 05 18:40:47 raster, btw, PaulFertser and I solved it if you are interested ;] Apr 05 19:00:07 PaulFertser, I want to make a wiki entry, got a name suggestion? Apr 05 19:01:05 TAsn: configuring_utf8_locale? Apr 05 19:01:23 not catchy enough ;] Apr 05 19:01:51 TAsn: the ultimate fix to all utf8 issues Apr 05 19:01:54 ehlo Apr 05 19:01:57 is bluetooth supposed to work on shr-unstable? Apr 05 19:02:07 Yes Apr 05 19:02:11 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Localization Apr 05 19:02:14 how is this? Apr 05 19:02:37 PaulFertser, "The answer, to life, unicode and everything" sounds better Apr 05 19:02:55 TAsn: yep :) Apr 05 19:03:00 PaulFertser: any page that is supposed to be specific for shr? - I run hcitool inq and it reports no devices Apr 05 19:03:28 b0ef: you need to turn on bluetooth first Apr 05 19:03:41 b0ef: shr-setting probably has a gui way to do it. Apr 05 19:04:40 PaulFertser: right, I'll try to find that; thanks.. Apr 05 19:04:57 b0ef: or you can directly use mdbus to use odeviced methods Apr 05 19:07:23 b0ef: if you had suspended your neo, bt won't work Apr 05 19:07:30 b0ef: it's some kernel problem i think... Apr 05 19:08:18 dos1: it was fixed at some point Apr 05 19:08:30 dos1: iirc Apr 05 19:08:54 PaulFertser: with kernel from 1 april it still didn't worked Apr 05 19:09:08 dos1: :( Apr 05 19:10:01 maybe it was an april fools kernel Apr 05 19:15:12 hi Apr 05 19:15:38 PaulFertser, does it work for you? Apr 05 19:15:43 (try inserting a text{ Apr 05 19:15:54 for some reason not all the keys are working for me atm, only some. Apr 05 19:15:56 weird shit. ;] Apr 05 19:16:11 TAsn: i'm a Debian user, how am i supposed to test it? Apr 05 19:16:21 xev Apr 05 19:16:25 oh, nvm. Apr 05 19:16:35 dos1: that bt kernel bug has been fixed Apr 05 19:16:43 b0ef: ^ Apr 05 19:17:20 lindi-: ah, nice, thanks Apr 05 19:19:26 lindi-: i see no bt-related commits since the 1st april. And dos1 says that it didn't work with the 1st april kernel. Apr 05 19:21:08 PaulFertser, lindi-: i will check again, maybe it was another problem or with frameworkd Apr 05 19:21:24 dos1: yeah, it'd be nice to know for sure Apr 05 19:22:25 PaulFertser: different branch? Apr 05 19:22:42 lindi-: shr-unstable uses andy-tracking head everytime the image is built. Apr 05 19:23:09 PaulFertser: maybe that's a new regression then Apr 05 19:24:46 PaulFertser, here for some reason only a fem keys work. Apr 05 19:24:48 few* Apr 05 19:24:58 mdbus -s org.freesmartphone.ousaged /org/freesmartphone/Device/PowerControl/Bluetooth org.freesmartphone.Device.PowerControl.SetPower 1 Apr 05 19:25:04 this is not right?!? Apr 05 19:25:28 I know the reason though. Apr 05 19:25:30 b0ef: no, it should be odeviced Apr 05 19:25:40 lindi-: yes, looks like that, i can reproduce it. Apr 05 19:26:04 PaulFertser: right, thanks Apr 05 19:26:40 right, still nothing with hciconfig after that command; I'll try to reboot it, then Apr 05 19:27:46 b0ef: yes, after reboot it should work. Apr 05 19:32:44 hmm, nope Apr 05 19:33:23 b0ef: then it's a new regression, thanks for reporting :) Apr 05 19:33:34 damn;) Apr 05 19:42:36 PaulFertser: bug report time then :) Apr 05 19:44:12 lindi-: or debug Apr 05 20:01:13 Hello Apr 05 20:03:39 moin Apr 05 20:14:14 PaulFertser, I think I made a working package ;] Apr 05 20:14:19 oh, wait, you don't use shr Apr 05 20:14:21 TAsn: congrats :) Apr 05 20:14:23 I wanted you to test ;] Apr 05 20:14:39 (since my installation is full of stuff I did manually...) Apr 05 20:28:46 When trying to build a cross compiling plattform from the scratch what target architecture one has to set? Apr 05 20:29:07 I don't know how the triplet is composed (any suggestions where I can read up about that?). Apr 05 20:33:32 cnwdup: #openmoko-cdevel Apr 05 20:33:44 DocScrutinizer, thanks. Apr 05 20:38:23 hey, does X try to read xorg.conf in shr Apr 05 20:38:23 ? Apr 05 20:45:13 TAsn: i think kdrive ignores xorg.conf Apr 05 20:45:26 TAsn: supply a crap-filled one and see if it barfs? Apr 05 20:45:41 TAsn: or strace ;) Apr 05 20:45:46 DocScrutinizer, good idea, though nvm now. ;] Apr 05 20:45:50 or strace :) Apr 05 20:47:11 finally! Apr 05 20:47:33 man, illume keyboard has a very weird behavior! Apr 05 20:55:16 one would expect it would just ignore the keyboard layout and do as it pleases, since it's keyboards are not layout related Apr 05 20:55:21 though it doesn't. ;] Apr 05 20:55:31 that's the main issue. Apr 05 20:55:47 well it should ignore only if it's the sole user. Apr 05 20:59:10 oh, actually it does, though there's something wrong with that. ;\ Apr 05 20:59:36 no more openmoko? http://mobile.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=09/04/04/228240&art_pos=4 Apr 05 21:00:09 fud Apr 05 21:00:23 astrocub: that may be slight overkill - but it's certainly gone through a massive change which isn't quite clear yet. Apr 05 21:00:36 Involving sacking large numbers of people, whihc is usually a bad thing. Apr 05 21:00:50 yup Apr 05 21:14:36 astrocub, THere's an interesting talk by Sean Moss-Pults at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFuwhPXYxxI&feature=PlayList&p=96FB31DA6E4012DA&index=1 Apr 05 21:16:12 phew. I'm tired. Apr 05 21:16:12 ;] Apr 05 22:18:56 nice to hear that even though it was just a hack my podcast player was one of the winners of the competition :) Apr 05 22:31:51 TAsn: fixed? Apr 05 22:31:59 Rasters Apr 05 22:32:16 raster, yeah. Apr 05 22:32:25 Dave: boo Apr 05 22:32:25 it was a locale issue Apr 05 22:32:31 TAsn: oooh cool! Apr 05 22:32:34 no patches? Apr 05 22:32:36 just for you to know next time you encounter this kind of errors. Apr 05 22:32:39 raster, no ;] Apr 05 22:32:43 but there's another issue Apr 05 22:32:45 kshellent! Apr 05 22:32:48 :D Apr 05 22:33:25 if the keysym isn't in the used layout Apr 05 22:33:37 then the keyboard adds it Apr 05 22:33:45 and I don't know why Apr 05 22:33:57 it makes apps crazy Apr 05 22:34:07 all the keycode changes or something, no idea what exactly Apr 05 22:34:32 though you just get a random char instead of the wanted one Apr 05 22:34:34 aaah yes Apr 05 22:34:36 everything you press a key. Apr 05 22:34:38 well it has to add it Apr 05 22:34:42 I know. Apr 05 22:34:42 there isn't much choice Apr 05 22:34:50 but I'm just saying it goes crazy Apr 05 22:34:57 hmmm Apr 05 22:35:01 I think YOU went crazy here :P Apr 05 22:35:04 maybe you should add the whole layout at first Apr 05 22:35:08 Dave, hehe yeah. Apr 05 22:35:16 raster, I mean, when the keyboard is opened Apr 05 22:35:24 just load the whole current layout Apr 05 22:35:37 though a possible issue is lack of room Apr 05 22:35:47 yes Apr 05 22:35:56 and its using "unused codes" Apr 05 22:35:57 for instance X only gives the keyboard 8 possible codes here Apr 05 22:36:02 so it doesnt mess with the current layout Apr 05 22:36:08 here's the catch Apr 05 22:36:13 yeah, I know. Apr 05 22:36:13 what if you are like an n810 Apr 05 22:36:18 with a slide-out physiocal kbd Apr 05 22:36:23 u dont WANT to mess with the layout Apr 05 22:36:25 yeah, I know. Apr 05 22:36:26 (all of it) Apr 05 22:36:29 hm.. Apr 05 22:36:37 so what do you do?? Apr 05 22:36:38 or u have a usb (external) kbd plugged in Apr 05 22:36:57 I agree ;] Apr 05 22:36:58 you want to retain the ability to use that.. and the onscreen vkbd Apr 05 22:37:04 bluetooch kbd... Apr 05 22:37:24 so the solution was to find some "unused keycodes" and remap those Apr 05 22:37:29 "as needed" Apr 05 22:37:29 yeah Apr 05 22:37:37 but for some reason Apr 05 22:37:39 it doesn't work. Apr 05 22:37:45 technicallyu all clitens get the remap notify and shoudl adapt Apr 05 22:37:59 oh Apr 05 22:38:01 not I got you. Apr 05 22:38:13 that's the remapping you talked about yesterday Apr 05 22:38:26 thats why they migh "go crazy" - they are figuring out a new keyboard mapping Apr 05 22:38:30 yup\ Apr 05 22:38:56 they are probably not updating the new mapping Apr 05 22:39:02 it simply is going 'physical key 107 = "æ"' Apr 05 22:39:06 as 107 was unused Apr 05 22:39:10 yeah, I know. Apr 05 22:39:25 and NOW it can send 107... to press 'æ' Apr 05 22:39:33 but elementary/etk apps (not sure which, openmokomessages for instance, don't work. Apr 05 22:39:38 raster, yeah, I got the idea. Apr 05 22:39:38 (clients shoudl now have the idea that 107 -> æ) Apr 05 22:39:50 so it might be a problem with etk/elementary. Apr 05 22:40:18 they "do the right thing" Apr 05 22:40:30 void Apr 05 22:40:30 _ecore_x_event_handle_mapping_notify(XEvent *xevent) Apr 05 22:40:30 { Apr 05 22:40:30 _ecore_x_last_event_mouse_move = 0; Apr 05 22:40:30 XRefreshKeyboardMapping((XMappingEvent *)xevent); Apr 05 22:40:30 } Apr 05 22:40:39 on a mapping notify - refresh Apr 05 22:41:03 _ecore_x_event_handlers[MappingNotify] = _ecore_x_event_handle_mapping_notify; Apr 05 22:41:36 i c. Apr 05 22:41:38 (it's just a table with all the standard x events in it and what func to call to handle it) Apr 05 22:41:47 so why do you think it may happen? Apr 05 22:41:55 i am not sure Apr 05 22:42:10 for some reason it's not being called? Apr 05 22:42:18 as such - do the accent keys work for you? Apr 05 22:42:49 accent? no idea Apr 05 22:42:52 never used them. Apr 05 22:43:05 (if I get what you are saying...) Apr 05 22:43:18 freesmartphone.org: 03Frederik.Sdun 07vala-dbus-binding-tool * re35b4711a9a2 10/src/vala-dbus-binding-tool.vala: add null check for void returntypes Apr 05 22:44:16 illume keyboard "numbers" Apr 05 22:44:20 btw I thought about something, I'll think I'll add a direction configuration to the keyboard configuration so the erase/space will be natural for rtl langs as well. Apr 05 22:44:22 where it has 1, 2, 3, 4 etc. Apr 05 22:44:28 and also ä Apr 05 22:44:30 yeah, sec, i'll check. Apr 05 22:44:30 ö Apr 05 22:44:32 etc. Apr 05 22:44:47 they do work for me - on my desktop... (in xephyr) with elementary Apr 05 22:45:00 lol, it crashed illume. Apr 05 22:45:03 weird. Apr 05 22:45:23 ??? Apr 05 22:45:25 *e Apr 05 22:45:27 wow Apr 05 22:45:32 here it works Apr 05 22:46:00 my keyboard has none of these accented keys Apr 05 22:46:01 oh, it's just the euro char crashing it. Apr 05 22:46:03 accent works. Apr 05 22:46:09 euro char works for me Apr 05 22:46:28 admitedly - never tested hebrew Apr 05 22:46:34 accented chars do not work. Apr 05 22:46:36 but technically these shoudl be testing the same codepath Apr 05 22:46:42 as they dont exist in my kbd mapping Apr 05 22:46:55 hmm Apr 05 22:46:56 or should I use them after a regular letter? Apr 05 22:47:00 so its something local to you Apr 05 22:47:06 no Apr 05 22:47:10 wait Apr 05 22:47:17 this is the numbers "keyboard" Apr 05 22:47:22 with euro sign etc Apr 05 22:47:28 the bottom row are lettes with accents Apr 05 22:47:32 those ones Apr 05 22:47:36 do they not work for you? Apr 05 22:49:19 not quite Apr 05 22:49:26 they show in the dict bar Apr 05 22:49:33 though not in the messages app. Apr 05 22:49:42 hmm Apr 05 22:49:49 they work in elementary_test for me Apr 05 22:49:52 in the entry Apr 05 22:50:32 anyhow, they are not mapped correctly. Apr 05 22:50:41 I went to xev Apr 05 22:50:47 and tried accented a Apr 05 22:50:50 and get accented o Apr 05 22:50:58 something is going bad there. Apr 05 22:53:06 MappingNotify event, serial 35, synthetic NO, window 0x0, Apr 05 22:53:07 request MappingKeyboard, first_keycode 8, count 247 Apr 05 22:53:16 MappingNotify event, serial 35, synthetic NO, window 0x0, Apr 05 22:53:16 request MappingKeyboard, first_keycode 8, count 247 Apr 05 22:53:37 KeyPress event, serial 37, synthetic NO, window 0x800001, Apr 05 22:53:38 root 0x7c, subw 0x0, time 157675804, (349,386), root:(349,450), Apr 05 22:53:38 state 0x10, keycode 253 (keysym 0xdf, ssharp), same_screen YES, Apr 05 22:53:38 XLookupString gives 2 bytes: (c3 9f) "ß" Apr 05 22:53:38 XmbLookupString gives 2 bytes: (c3 9f) "ß" Apr 05 22:53:38 XFilterEvent returns: False Apr 05 22:53:46 (worked for me) Apr 05 22:53:48 :( Apr 05 22:54:08 hm.. Apr 05 22:54:28 (and of course the release event too) Apr 05 22:54:45 oh wait Apr 05 22:54:48 it's just accented a Apr 05 22:54:51 everything else works. Apr 05 22:55:52 hmm Apr 05 22:56:20 maybe the keyboard is bad? Apr 05 22:56:22 When booting SHR from SD on GTA01, and the bootm command was sent to u-boot via USB (instead of a menu item), is it supposed to show no kernel messages on the screen at all? (I never tried booting from SD before) Apr 05 22:56:24 ä Apr 05 22:56:29 nope. Apr 05 22:56:30 ok. Apr 05 22:56:32 and à work for me Apr 05 22:56:37 a : Apr 05 22:56:40 was the problem. Apr 05 22:56:54 that works for me Apr 05 22:57:09 so something is different here Apr 05 22:57:20 as for me... it works Apr 05 22:57:23 for you - not Apr 05 22:57:33 that is weird. Apr 05 22:58:02 brb. Apr 05 22:58:05 food. Apr 05 22:58:20 :) Apr 05 22:58:28 ok - but we know a few things Apr 05 22:58:35 that... Apr 05 22:58:40 http://members.iinet.net.au/~haste/e17/WFM.png Apr 05 22:58:53 :) Apr 05 22:59:04 :o Apr 05 22:59:30 lol Apr 05 22:59:51 raster, don't forget your e version is newer than mine Apr 05 22:59:57 I'm using the one openmoko use Apr 05 23:00:42 fooi. Apr 05 23:00:46 d Apr 05 23:01:26 TAsn: true. i do know that ecore a while back didnt call the refreshmapping Apr 05 23:01:29 that got fixed Apr 05 23:01:32 maaaaybe Apr 05 23:01:35 you are just too behind Apr 05 23:03:31 * cesarb is wondering whether this SHR kernel has framebuffer configured at all Apr 05 23:11:54 i can tell you the rev. Apr 05 23:12:05 wait, even better Apr 05 23:12:10 what's the func name? Apr 05 23:12:19 i'll just look for it. Apr 05 23:12:19 hey cesarb? Apr 05 23:12:25 how's life going for you? Apr 05 23:13:15 Dave: managed to become less busy ;-) Apr 05 23:13:38 Dave: at least enough that I can try for the nth time to get a modern distro on this GTA01 Apr 05 23:13:55 (for some reason it seems they are all way too big, which is why I am trying to boot from SD now) Apr 05 23:14:26 Aha :) Apr 05 23:14:27 nice Apr 05 23:14:33 XRefreshKeyboardMapping Apr 05 23:16:03 void Apr 05 23:16:04 _ecore_x_event_handle_mapping_notify(XEvent *xevent) Apr 05 23:16:04 { Apr 05 23:16:04 _ecore_x_last_event_mouse_move = 0; Apr 05 23:16:04 XRefreshKeyboardMapping((XMappingEvent *)xevent); Apr 05 23:16:04 } Apr 05 23:16:07 seems like it's there. Apr 05 23:16:22 oh wait Apr 05 23:16:31 looked in the wrong place Apr 05 23:16:47 (looked in the current svn snapshot ;] ) Apr 05 23:17:56 void Apr 05 23:17:57 _ecore_x_event_handle_mapping_notify(XEvent *xevent __UNUSED__) Apr 05 23:17:57 { Apr 05 23:17:57 /* FIXME: handle this event type */ Apr 05 23:17:57 } Apr 05 23:17:59 lol, ok ;] Apr 05 23:18:06 that's the reason for the whole mess. Apr 05 23:30:54 raster, thanks btw, I opened a bug in shr telling them to make a new version. Apr 05 23:33:08 I now have a working phone thanks to you ;] Apr 05 23:37:38 TAsn: aha! Apr 05 23:37:41 old version Apr 05 23:37:48 yeah. Apr 05 23:37:49 http://members.iinet.net.au/~haste/e17/WFM.png Apr 05 23:37:50 I hate them! ;] Apr 05 23:38:02 wfl tends to move fast Apr 05 23:38:06 not my fault ;[ Apr 05 23:38:12 we dont muych keep track of everythign that happens Apr 05 23:38:26 it's cool. ;] Apr 05 23:38:28 thats what the scms does Apr 05 23:38:44 btw I heard you fixed the cpu consumption issue, is this true? Apr 05 23:38:45 but we are up to 39876 revisions in our svn history Apr 05 23:38:53 if we really documented everry change Apr 05 23:39:03 and made an annoucnement and release... Apr 05 23:39:10 we'd never have 1/100th of the code we have Apr 05 23:39:20 so.. all we can say is 'stuff gets fixed/better Apr 05 23:39:30 and generally all stuff in svn at any point in time is "consisitent" Apr 05 23:39:35 ie it works with other stuff Apr 05 23:39:46 actually, your code is good. Apr 05 23:39:56 really self explanatory Apr 05 23:40:20 though I have seen helish code that made my trying to figure out wtf is going on life terrible. Apr 05 23:40:32 you have good conventions, naming and source splitting. Apr 05 23:42:28 it could be better Apr 05 23:42:36 i'll never admit its perfect Apr 05 23:42:42 there is a lot of code there that is done "Expediently" Apr 05 23:42:49 as I said, it's self explanatory, which is very important. Apr 05 23:43:01 it could be imrpoved with better factoring into subroutines Apr 05 23:43:04 and mroe comments Apr 05 23:43:10 but everything costs time and effort Apr 05 23:43:11 :( Apr 05 23:43:16 duh. Apr 05 23:43:29 "i have 2 hrs.. what will i do?" Apr 05 23:43:42 but features sometimes should come before documentation. Apr 05 23:43:43 i can either clean/refactor code (will that change/improve anything?) Apr 05 23:43:49 or i can add a new feature Apr 05 23:44:05 or ptimise a routine to be faster that i know is used a lot and will havea visible impact if improved Apr 05 23:44:11 i always go for option #2 Apr 05 23:44:11 :) Apr 05 23:44:28 hehe Apr 05 23:44:33 #3 is also very important. Apr 05 23:44:38 documentation is another option Apr 05 23:44:47 "document this.. or write a new feature?" Apr 05 23:44:55 FEATURE! Apr 05 23:44:56 soon enough you have 30489 new features Apr 05 23:44:56 ;] Apr 05 23:45:03 and u never got to documenting them Apr 05 23:45:04 :) Apr 05 23:45:08 hehe. Apr 05 23:45:45 i do hope tho that good naming conventions of src files Apr 05 23:45:45 but at least you got a cool a cool wm and libraries. Apr 05 23:45:47 and fucnton calls Apr 05 23:45:53 parameter ordering and consistency Apr 05 23:45:56 struct types Apr 05 23:46:03 helsp "alleviate" need for src docs Apr 05 23:46:19 ie you can just read the code and have an ok idea of what its is generally doing Apr 05 23:46:35 when people ask for api dics.. i go Apr 05 23:46:40 "did your read the .h?" Apr 05 23:46:44 amazing how few do Apr 05 23:46:52 anyone else getting random "your battery is low" alerts even when plugged in? (and has been plugged in for ~10hrs) Apr 05 23:46:57 i like to think of my .h's as api docs Apr 05 23:46:58 :) Apr 05 23:47:11 hehe. Apr 05 23:47:16 api docs are always a good idea Apr 05 23:47:34 though understanding the code is easy. ;] Apr 05 23:47:41 :) Apr 05 23:47:41 good Apr 05 23:47:48 glad that its not a bother Apr 05 23:48:08 though i do guess that it requires a solid comofrt with c Apr 05 23:48:12 comfort Apr 05 23:48:19 ie to know when i'm passing in Apr 05 23:48:31 val = do_this(val, &ret_val2); Apr 05 23:48:54 ie to know i'm indirectly passing in extra returns via params that point to return buffers Apr 05 23:49:13 or wtf void (*func) (void *data, int x) means Apr 05 23:49:43 do you even want someone who doesn't know his way around in c to touch your code? Apr 05 23:50:16 TAsn: no :) Apr 05 23:50:22 thats half the point Apr 05 23:50:23 so I guess you are fine. Apr 05 23:50:24 ;] Apr 05 23:50:33 i have had people who dont know their way aroudn c tough it Apr 05 23:50:46 and 98% of the time it's ended up in a dogs breakfast. Apr 05 23:51:08 i like to add a little "if it was hard to write.. it should be hard to read... damnit!" Apr 05 23:51:13 a nice filter barrier Apr 05 23:51:29 only in the last couple of days I read a lot of xorg, e, fribidi, biditex and my code, e was way ahead in everything. ;] Apr 05 23:53:00 actually the worst was some arbitrary code I read, after that biditex and after that xorg Apr 05 23:53:18 I don't count my code in the ranking because I wrote it, so it's clear to me. Apr 05 23:53:25 but my not be clear to others. Apr 05 23:53:44 though even though it's my code, e was nicer ;] Apr 05 23:53:50 TAsn: thanks! it really is hard to know where you stand. i keep beating myself up on quality of code Apr 05 23:54:04 but i know i have limited time to do a lot better without impacting dev speed Apr 05 23:54:04 sure thing. Apr 05 23:54:16 dev speed is important. Apr 05 23:54:30 and i have a fairly limtied world view as i dont spend most of my day trawling through xorg and others Apr 05 23:54:38 also i know i'd be biased Apr 05 23:54:43 ;] Apr 05 23:54:45 so i prefer not to try rate any code i do Apr 05 23:54:52 usually I don't go through xorg's code as well Apr 05 23:54:54 other than "i hope it's good.. you tell me!" Apr 05 23:55:08 though I was trying to realize this lookupstring mess Apr 05 23:55:35 and I got lost quite easily because the lack of proper conventions. Apr 05 23:55:40 hmmm Apr 05 23:55:41 yeah Apr 05 23:55:44 thats quite possible Apr 05 23:55:53 in e land we try and maintain a consistent set of conventions Apr 05 23:55:59 I really liked your nameoflib prefix, i.e ecore_* evas_* Apr 05 23:56:06 once you grasp them... it should be easy to see them pop up everywhere Apr 05 23:56:29 tracking just which layer to look at where/when etc. should be doable Apr 05 23:56:46 that's just great, I barely greped, and when I have, I laughed because it was so obvious. ;] Apr 05 23:56:50 yeah - the func calls are instrinsically letting you know just where the code came from and whatit should be doing Apr 05 23:57:00 hahaha Apr 05 23:57:02 raster, yep. Apr 05 23:57:02 awesome Apr 05 23:57:12 well i hope we keep it up Apr 05 23:57:21 but feel free to beat me up when appropriate Apr 05 23:58:06 don't you worry about it, I will ;] hm.. hm.. font_draw mess ;] Apr 05 23:58:36 though I saw it was sorted out a bit in newer versions. Apr 05 23:58:55 I should really start using the newest libs and hope nothing will break when installing on moko. Apr 05 23:59:21 raster, do you at least document major changes? (i.e when backward support stops) Apr 06 00:00:50 *hope* Apr 06 00:01:07 oh, and btw, I haven't read the code yet, so I may be talking about stuff that's already there, though I'm thinking about adding an "auto" alignment option, i.e I want left, right, center and auto, while auto aligns according to utf8 direction, what do you think? Apr 06 00:01:20 TAsn: hmmm - yes. font drawign could be improved muchly Apr 06 00:01:23 it was nice at the start Apr 06 00:01:25 simple Apr 06 00:01:27 but its grown Apr 06 00:01:45 yeah, you can actually see the different stages Apr 06 00:01:48 and i now would like more features out of it than it was designed for Apr 06 00:01:56 like in archeology Apr 06 00:01:58 ;] Apr 06 00:01:59 and i'm beginning to see the need for a bit of gutting and redoing fo that Apr 06 00:02:22 though in generaly the engine draw api needs a redo as.. i want to do things in evas and drawing that are just now painful to do Apr 06 00:02:35 raster, if you redesign it from the bottom up, don't forget the rtl guys ;] Apr 06 00:02:36 i could hack and tag on apis Apr 06 00:02:39 but it'll be ugly Apr 06 00:02:43 and yes Apr 06 00:02:52 if i design again - will be very different Apr 06 00:03:06 tho mostly its not the tect bit but other bits i'd want to improve Apr 06 00:03:20 for now i see that there would be a need for string objects at the engine level Apr 06 00:03:39 ie save the geometry of a particular string, font+size (+transform) Apr 06 00:03:44 yeah, probably. Apr 06 00:03:46 as an object with a handle Apr 06 00:03:58 this would avoid talking to ft2 during rendering Apr 06 00:04:07 ft2? Apr 06 00:04:11 you only talk to ft2 on original string build Apr 06 00:04:13 freetype2 Apr 06 00:04:21 oh. Apr 06 00:04:31 this should improve performance Apr 06 00:04:41 it would allow other fun like caching glyphcombos Apr 06 00:04:47 e.g.: Apr 06 00:04:57 "ec" is a common 2 glyph combo in a lang Apr 06 00:04:58 I became a lot more performance oriented after buying my moko ;] Apr 06 00:05:09 the engine could detect suh sequences and goll them into a singly glyph Apr 06 00:05:20 hell it could actuall try and share common words Apr 06 00:05:30 as in language use words repeat often Apr 06 00:05:57 so instead of drawing a words 1 char at a time - u kee[ a cached bitmap of the whole word Apr 06 00:06:05 it means longer pixel spans Apr 06 00:06:16 raster, that's a good idea, or at least caching of common words Apr 06 00:06:23 thus less loop overhead as u go line to line of tny 5, 10 or 15 pixel runs Apr 06 00:06:38 but without text "objects" at the engine level - this gets hard Apr 06 00:06:46 thus a need to change things Apr 06 00:07:02 and as for breaking compat.. umm.. dont tend to document it well beyond svn logs Apr 06 00:07:08 thats why we havent slapped out a release Apr 06 00:07:14 we want to break all we can now before release Apr 06 00:07:21 as once we release.. we HAVE to document every break Apr 06 00:07:35 and i want to go as long as possible with ONLY additions Apr 06 00:07:36 no breaks Apr 06 00:07:42 documenting breaks is ok Apr 06 00:07:43 i'd like to see years out of it Apr 06 00:07:47 and not very time consuming Apr 06 00:07:49 without a break Apr 06 00:08:03 raster, that requires careful design and tons of luck ;] Apr 06 00:08:10 yup Apr 06 00:08:16 but.. have an advantage there... Apr 06 00:08:20 been doing this for years now Apr 06 00:08:27 yeah. Apr 06 00:08:27 got a bit of experience under the betl Apr 06 00:08:35 and there is a small mountain of code excercising api's Apr 06 00:08:41 but this also means you must trust no one but yourself. Apr 06 00:08:46 to its getting real-life use thus maturing it Apr 06 00:08:48 ;] Apr 06 00:09:04 likely when the efl libs get a 1.0 - they will probably be one of the more stable 1.0's u've seen Apr 06 00:09:18 hey raster Apr 06 00:09:23 you still considering doing an arm device? Apr 06 00:09:24 hehe you'll become wine Apr 06 00:09:33 holycow: yes. Apr 06 00:09:38 holycow: absolutely Apr 06 00:09:45 TAsn: hahahahah Apr 06 00:09:50 TAsn: maybe :) Apr 06 00:09:54 ;] Apr 06 00:09:58 that's a good thing. Apr 06 00:10:07 no need to declare something is ready before it is. Apr 06 00:10:12 nice. still thinking of doing videou out over usb for thin client capability? Apr 06 00:10:22 but the plan is 1.0 == "we will support this and stand by it" Apr 06 00:10:27 so it means something Apr 06 00:10:36 holycow: video over usb? hell no Apr 06 00:10:52 holycow: but just breaking out the lcd lines to a dvi framer is on the cards Apr 06 00:10:59 eh, video over usb? what is? Apr 06 00:10:59 raster, can you even pull that off (arm device) Apr 06 00:11:01 (ala what beagleboard/overo do) Apr 06 00:11:18 so u'd have a usb connector AND an extra "custom connector" Apr 06 00:11:22 with a bunch of pins Apr 06 00:11:27 aha. neato. Apr 06 00:11:28 TAsn: absolutely Apr 06 00:11:43 raster, are you a millionaire? ;] Apr 06 00:11:47 the omap3 is powerful enough to even to 1920x1080 (mind u at 24hz) Apr 06 00:12:03 but it can happily do 1024x768 @ 60hz without blinking Apr 06 00:12:08 1600x1200 @ 40hz Apr 06 00:12:22 what's the size of the omap3? Apr 06 00:12:24 and no - i'm not a millionaire by a long shot Apr 06 00:12:39 so how do you plan on funding it?\ Apr 06 00:12:45 like i mentioned last time we chatted, we would be interested in having a linux desktop on a cel phone that users can plunk down on a desk and plug in kb/monitor Apr 06 00:12:45 * shellevil is a dollar millionaire. (Zim $) Apr 06 00:12:47 :) Apr 06 00:12:49 but.. if you know a few who;'d like to invest in an open smartphone.. that can also plug a keyboard, dvi lcd et.c into Apr 06 00:12:52 and "Become a pc" Apr 06 00:12:56 (whenever at your desk) Apr 06 00:12:59 ... Apr 06 00:13:17 as for omap3 Apr 06 00:13:18 tiny Apr 06 00:13:19 connectors are a problem Apr 06 00:13:20 umm Apr 06 00:13:25 raster, less than moko? Apr 06 00:13:37 maybe 18x18mm Apr 06 00:13:48 no bigger than any other soc's Apr 06 00:14:20 shellevil: that would be a cradle. you'd plug into cradle. the usb would plug in and the extra custom connectors (lcd line outs) Apr 06 00:14:45 USB is hideous that way Apr 06 00:14:48 the cradle would have a powered usb hub chip that plugs into the OTG port, also power connector to chargfe/power the phone Apr 06 00:14:50 raster, sweet. Apr 06 00:15:01 and the lcd lines wired up to dvi framer chip - which goes to a dvi out plug on the cradle Apr 06 00:15:02 positive cash flow is better to have then x$ in the bank Apr 06 00:15:14 means you've got to locate the phone to something like +-0.2mm or so, or you get the USB connector hanging up Apr 06 00:15:23 and breaking when the user slams it in. Apr 06 00:15:23 raster: I'll take 2 Apr 06 00:15:25 raster: i'm getting more and more requests for something of that capability Apr 06 00:15:38 raster, I'm also buying. Apr 06 00:15:39 ;] Apr 06 00:15:48 TAsn: to be honest. its not the chip that matters. battery 9a tradeoff on simply power vs size there) and screen make the biggest impacts Apr 06 00:15:50 that and RF Apr 06 00:15:55 (wifi, 3g, gps, bt) Apr 06 00:16:04 you need room for all the aerials and to keep them separated Apr 06 00:16:06 wimax! Apr 06 00:16:19 zigbee - gotta be able to turn the lights on and off. Apr 06 00:16:26 Don't forget rfid too. Apr 06 00:16:35 Oh - and FM radio. Apr 06 00:16:48 +1 for zigbee Apr 06 00:16:55 also any form of keypad/keyboard on the device blows its size out Apr 06 00:16:59 fm radio was really cool on the n800 Apr 06 00:17:04 raster, you own an fr, right? Apr 06 00:17:15 as u need a large area and even volume for the keys and the "buttons" udner them etc. Apr 06 00:17:16 raster: barring ikky complexities and sliding keybs Apr 06 00:17:31 raster, I still haven't decided whether I like keyboards or not (for mobile devices) Apr 06 00:17:37 AKA points of failure. Apr 06 00:17:41 I think I do, since a touch screen is hard to handle Apr 06 00:17:47 can't blind type, etc etc. Apr 06 00:18:03 can you type blind on a teeny keyb tho Apr 06 00:18:18 shellevil, I can easily blind type on my nokia Apr 06 00:18:26 quite fast, one or two handed Apr 06 00:18:32 shellevil: i know there are mechanical issues. and thats where my expertise stops - but i do believe its possible - it just needs good design on the cradle and the usb socket with nice guides to make sure it gets the thnig to slide in properly Apr 06 00:18:33 I can just about manage on an eeepc keytb - indeed this sentance was typed with eyes clsed. Apr 06 00:18:56 i was thinking about the screen kb Apr 06 00:19:08 when you use one it reduces your screen realestate Apr 06 00:19:29 how does one handle that issue when inputing data into a form application for example? Apr 06 00:19:32 shellevil: as for wimax.. that;d be a serious consideration.. were someone (like an isp) to come along and want to buy a lot of them.. for wimax... but until then wimax is still not "everyywhere" and i wouldnt consider it :( the rest.. *giggle* :) Apr 06 00:19:40 TAsn: yes. i have 2 fr's Apr 06 00:19:40 I want a screen that can sense fingerprints Apr 06 00:19:51 tho they have spent most of their time recently gathering a lot of dust Apr 06 00:20:08 so I can have a large button that responds differently to different fingers. Apr 06 00:20:10 shellevil: and yes. kbd's are points of failure. absolutely Apr 06 00:20:14 but peolpe seem ot like them Apr 06 00:20:23 raster, I don't remember if I told you, but I want to add a couple of features to the keyboard: 1. a toggle layout (switching fast between related layouts) optional key 2. fixing sliding direction for rtl Apr 06 00:20:25 tactile feedback is just something a vkbd cant replace Apr 06 00:20:38 though joerg had a nice idea Apr 06 00:20:40 ras: you can have devices that shake the display Apr 06 00:20:46 put some piezo's behind the lcd Apr 06 00:20:47 raster, what idea? Apr 06 00:20:49 raster: that's been done, and works ok Apr 06 00:20:53 piezo? Apr 06 00:20:57 raster: are you planning on a real kb or virtual one? Apr 06 00:20:58 they should suport Nextel system, used in all over south america Apr 06 00:21:00 I saw to solutions to this problem Apr 06 00:21:00 raster: prolly not piezo - motor'd be simpler Apr 06 00:21:01 and so now u have actuators that can move the screen in and out by a fraction of a mm Apr 06 00:21:06 like a walki talki system Apr 06 00:21:13 the first is a tazer Apr 06 00:21:20 u can vibrate them and possibly emulate some physical/tactile feedback Apr 06 00:21:22 that zaps the fingers on wanted locations Apr 06 00:21:29 that makes it feel like a click Apr 06 00:21:38 nice idea actually, and very dynamic. Apr 06 00:21:43 the second is what you said. Apr 06 00:22:16 holycow: well the app needs to handle its window being resized down. it knows it was resized. it should "adapt" - hide any uinimportant things. maybe reformat its ui to only display the entry box u are focused on? Apr 06 00:22:36 *nod* Apr 06 00:22:50 TAsn: vkbd changes - possible. for sure. Apr 06 00:23:03 A DS like thing, with one touchscreen keyb'd be a fun option. Apr 06 00:23:08 holycow: as for real vs virtual kbd Apr 06 00:23:10 i dont know Apr 06 00:23:13 in some ways mechanically simpler Apr 06 00:23:19 right now.. we dont have any mechanical guys Apr 06 00:23:28 so my knowledge is limited Apr 06 00:23:34 i know that a software vkbd is much more flexible Apr 06 00:23:37 raster, I really think a very important thing Apr 06 00:23:45 it allows the ability to cover lots of languages easily Apr 06 00:23:47 with no hw changes Apr 06 00:23:48 is an accessory jack Apr 06 00:23:51 a real kbd does not Apr 06 00:24:00 i.e something that accessories can get locked to Apr 06 00:24:02 you make it and its pretty much stuck at whatever it was built for Apr 06 00:24:05 starting from a camera Apr 06 00:24:08 takes up a lot of screen real estate though Apr 06 00:24:12 ending with a small keyboard Apr 06 00:24:14 and yes Apr 06 00:24:15 on an already limited viewing area Apr 06 00:24:17 tas: it gets horribly messy to do that Apr 06 00:24:21 but so does a real kbd Apr 06 00:24:30 at lreast unless its a flip phone or slide-out Apr 06 00:24:36 TAsn: you want to bring out more than a couple of lines - and the connector gets messy. Apr 06 00:24:43 TAsn: fragile, and expensive Apr 06 00:24:52 * ndnihil doesnt mind flip one bit Apr 06 00:24:52 oh saps Apr 06 00:24:55 then you can limit yourself Apr 06 00:25:03 Who forgot me to the phone keyboard conversation!? Apr 06 00:25:06 TAsn: plus - mechanical issues - how does the accessory lock on? Apr 06 00:25:09 I actually prefer flips because I can stick them in my pocket without worrying about hitting keys or the screen Apr 06 00:25:10 don't allow hd video accessories Apr 06 00:25:13 TAsn: to be honest - thats hard Apr 06 00:25:25 GD900? Apr 06 00:25:27 shellevil, that's why we pay engineers, duh. Apr 06 00:25:28 technically thats what usb is already Apr 06 00:25:29 ;] Apr 06 00:25:32 TAsn: then you've got the fact that for a normal camera interface, you need 15 wires or so Apr 06 00:25:36 TAsn: err - no Apr 06 00:25:43 raster: totally cool. i'm buying at least one my self :) Apr 06 00:25:50 the one big issue I have with the FR, albeit rather petty, is that there is nowhere to store the stylus Apr 06 00:25:56 More accurately, that's why we pay raster ;) Apr 06 00:25:56 right now its still all upo in the air Apr 06 00:25:58 raster, but I also want a "hard" link Apr 06 00:26:00 new sweet phone needs a place for the stylus Apr 06 00:26:00 TAsn: nobody has been able to come up with good cheap large pin-count connectors. Apr 06 00:26:05 it all depends on if we can get this beyond just a prototype Apr 06 00:26:17 TAsn: despite probably tens of millions of research Apr 06 00:26:18 i'll buy a prototype :) Apr 06 00:26:19 hehe Apr 06 00:26:28 one thing that has been considered is puting the baseband on a daughterboard Apr 06 00:26:32 raster, btw, will it require oss hw? Apr 06 00:26:39 if you've seen the gumstix overoa or verdex Apr 06 00:26:50 the main issues for me have always beeb the ability to run debian and a phone app that works Apr 06 00:26:51 *will you Apr 06 00:26:55 the "cpu board" is just a board with a cpu (soc) and mayb wifi and micro-sd Apr 06 00:26:55 everything else is incidental Apr 06 00:26:57 and pmu Apr 06 00:27:01 TAsn: added to teh fact that a camera on board takes maybe 10*10*4mm - offboard it needs to be much larger Apr 06 00:27:08 it has connectors on the back to plug it onto a daughterboard Apr 06 00:27:11 like one with lcd outs Apr 06 00:27:15 and power Apr 06 00:27:17 shellevil, then not a camera Apr 06 00:27:17 dvi out Apr 06 00:27:17 etc. Apr 06 00:27:23 but the point is the connectors Apr 06 00:27:26 hot Apr 06 00:27:30 a keyboard/storage/bat/dunno what. Apr 06 00:27:31 ;] Apr 06 00:27:34 put the 2g/3g on a daughterboard Apr 06 00:27:50 this way you get the phone without any "phone bit" Apr 06 00:27:59 and daughterboards are youc choise Apr 06 00:28:01 and please, god, make swappable sds ;] Apr 06 00:28:02 2g or 3g Apr 06 00:28:08 (2g is cheap) (3g expensive) Apr 06 00:28:14 neat Apr 06 00:28:22 and oss hw? Apr 06 00:28:32 2.5g Apr 06 00:28:34 raster, modularity is important, people will be able to do what they want. Apr 06 00:28:40 that's fr Apr 06 00:28:44 quad-uSD slots, 4x16Gb in raid 5 Apr 06 00:28:44 hah Apr 06 00:28:46 raster, like an fr. Apr 06 00:28:47 well really Apr 06 00:28:50 uggh Apr 06 00:28:55 be productive, ndhihiihlihl :P Apr 06 00:28:57 as much as possible that is. Apr 06 00:28:58 our main concern is that the kernel and all drivers and userspace is open Apr 06 00:28:58 :) Apr 06 00:29:06 yeah Apr 06 00:29:09 right now i'km willing to accept firmware binay blobs Apr 06 00:29:17 TAsn: modularity raises _huge_ problems alas. Apr 06 00:29:18 raster, same here. Apr 06 00:29:18 as long as theyare uploaded to chips that are off from the main soc Apr 06 00:29:19 actually, I was seriously pondering how to cram more tf cards in the space next to the battery in the FR Apr 06 00:29:20 also dual slot-loading SIMS ftw Apr 06 00:29:27 and slot-loading µSD Apr 06 00:29:29 ie they run on the processor on the fwifi or 2g or 3g chip Apr 06 00:29:33 maybe one internal too Apr 06 00:29:33 shellevil, but the coolness factor surpasses them. Apr 06 00:29:40 productive lol Apr 06 00:29:44 thus they dont interfere with your apps or kernel or limit you in what new kernel/apps u can use Apr 06 00:29:47 TAsn: For example, you want a flexible wireless module - you now have to add weight and volume for: Apr 06 00:29:56 it keeps your os kernel and libs and apps open Apr 06 00:29:57 btw guys, don't mind my babbling, I'm tired ;] Apr 06 00:30:07 in the end all hw has firmware of its own somewhere Apr 06 00:30:13 raster, good enough compromise until your company is large enough to demand otehrwise Apr 06 00:30:15 *nod* Apr 06 00:30:29 if its wired into silicon or flashed onto thje chip or uploaded every boot whenever the chip is turned on.. doesnt much matter Apr 06 00:30:31 raster, all I can for is decent hw, and working drivers Apr 06 00:30:40 the condition on the fr is terrible Apr 06 00:30:40 ;[] Apr 06 00:30:42 TAsn: thats the plan Apr 06 00:30:46 also to use "existing open chips" Apr 06 00:30:55 ie dont select stuff that has no drivers already Apr 06 00:31:06 select wifi that has existing drivers (alreayd selected) Apr 06 00:31:09 I'm terribly disappointed with the wifi Apr 06 00:31:10 and so on Apr 06 00:31:17 tas: the exterior case of the module - so it doesn't break when users try to install it. Latching hardware to hold it on. An internal case on the phone to hold the module. Connectors to go to the module (and which lines do you bring out?) More power conditioning as the connectors have some inductance. Apr 06 00:31:38 shellevil, hehe, ok, I'm sorry. I'll stop daydreaming Apr 06 00:31:49 the plan is to come up with a preliminary but solid spec Apr 06 00:31:51 (actually it's 4am so night dreaming would be more appropriate) Apr 06 00:31:54 that does a lot of these things Apr 06 00:31:57 i think the wifi driver getting better now Apr 06 00:32:01 TAsn: then you've got the issue that if you've got a 22*22*3mm GSM module, a 30*30*6mm 3G module - what size do you make the moduule for wireless? Apr 06 00:32:01 and circulate it in the community for feedback Apr 06 00:32:09 not everything people want can be (sanely) done Apr 06 00:32:15 raster, I think everyone who bought a moko will buy one. ;] Apr 06 00:32:15 buyt maybe there are good ideas Apr 06 00:32:16 some crazy Ivan guy wants to make wifi fast Apr 06 00:32:27 i thnk one thing that is being considered is making a dev board for sale Apr 06 00:32:30 much like the beagleboard Apr 06 00:32:33 or gumstix overo Apr 06 00:32:43 its a relaitvely expensive dev board.. with lcd and more Apr 06 00:32:55 that embedded devs can use to play with omap3 Apr 06 00:32:58 and 2g or 3g Apr 06 00:33:00 and wifi Apr 06 00:33:01 etc. Apr 06 00:33:02 no case Apr 06 00:33:03 fredrin, iirc we are limited by firmware. Apr 06 00:33:04 TAsn: either wste space, or not have room for the 38*38*9mm wimax+3G module 6 months down the road Apr 06 00:33:08 Anyone CAD'ed this up? Apr 06 00:33:11 probably connectors for a battery - but shippign without one Apr 06 00:33:13 do we have schematics? Apr 06 00:33:22 Do I have written proposals? Apr 06 00:33:24 Dev boards are lots easier than phones. Apr 06 00:33:29 and sell the boards as "this may or may not work - but seems to work for us. here - try it!" Apr 06 00:33:30 No packing problems Apr 06 00:33:41 and let people play/dev and give feedback Apr 06 00:33:45 raster, i would personally pay $1k for such a device Apr 06 00:33:56 TAsn: i know.... :( but as i've understood, wifi chip is a dead end of Ateros, so maybe they can release it Apr 06 00:33:59 i don't know what the market demand would be tho Apr 06 00:33:59 the real problems and big expense coems next Apr 06 00:34:07 it would be nice to have monitor mode and ap mode Apr 06 00:34:10 and less bugs Apr 06 00:34:11 taking such a rough proto and having real mechanical design work at it Apr 06 00:34:13 o/ Apr 06 00:34:15 put it in real case/housing Apr 06 00:34:25 with real nice surface ts panel Apr 06 00:34:26 fred: companies almost never release details of old chips, when they go obsolete Apr 06 00:34:32 battery all in the case and working Apr 06 00:34:35 certification Apr 06 00:34:40 and.. gettign it to mass production Apr 06 00:34:41 raster, and most important, make proper front panels Apr 06 00:34:43 aske in a nice way Apr 06 00:34:45 ras: beong droppable Apr 06 00:34:45 thats where you now need millions of $ Apr 06 00:34:46 don't block screen sides ;] Apr 06 00:34:56 TAsn: bingo Apr 06 00:35:06 if it is touchscreen the frotn must be flat - no bezels Apr 06 00:35:12 zero Apr 06 00:35:16 raster, yep. Apr 06 00:35:25 will you go for capacitive or force? Apr 06 00:35:36 shellevil: droppable is a matter for mech experts. i really dont have the expertise there Apr 06 00:35:37 that's actually a hard one. Apr 06 00:35:43 and there will be a tradeoff Apr 06 00:35:54 if u realyl want droppable int he end u'll probably just want a silicone case for it Apr 06 00:35:54 raster: yes, I know - and it's horrible Apr 06 00:36:04 TAsn: i lean to capacitive myself Apr 06 00:36:09 simply because its so much mroe sensitive Apr 06 00:36:12 for use "on the go" Apr 06 00:36:25 its more practical as it doesnt requpre pressure to kep the press working Apr 06 00:36:27 ++ Apr 06 00:36:32 SAW Apr 06 00:36:40 yeah, and it doesn't get clicked in the pocket Apr 06 00:36:51 shellevil: unless you know mech design experts.. i'd rather just avoid trying to make a mechanical wonder of it.. if possible Apr 06 00:36:53 though you have issues with stylus Apr 06 00:36:55 TAsn: correct Apr 06 00:37:03 you can get capactive styluses Apr 06 00:37:06 they do exist Apr 06 00:37:09 i know Apr 06 00:37:12 i know of 2 for the iphone Apr 06 00:37:14 though they are a bit clumsy Apr 06 00:37:22 but really Apr 06 00:37:23 raster: There is 'mechanical wonder' and 'not more fragile than your average phone' Apr 06 00:37:26 for instance look it my stylus Apr 06 00:37:29 imoh if the ui is finger-drivable Apr 06 00:37:35 90% of use will be finger anyway Apr 06 00:37:36 raster: how of this stuff is off the shelf and how much are you guys having to manufacture? Apr 06 00:37:37 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Stylus_Alternatives#DIY Apr 06 00:37:41 so optimise for the majority use case Apr 06 00:37:54 holycow: you have to manufacutre the whole board Apr 06 00:37:59 you can buy components Apr 06 00:38:03 raster, that's why i'm also thinking about capacitive, though it's no by no means an easy choice. Apr 06 00:38:06 neat. Apr 06 00:38:08 lcd currently is undecided Apr 06 00:38:15 i know what i'd like - but i have yet to find a supplier with it Apr 06 00:38:26 any thoughts on when you might becomming to market? Apr 06 00:38:35 holycow: not sure yet Apr 06 00:38:38 raster, what will be the developers price? Apr 06 00:38:42 i.e beta beta testers Apr 06 00:38:42 the dev board thing is doable within "months" Apr 06 00:38:46 a phole phone.. dont know Apr 06 00:39:02 coolness. Apr 06 00:39:08 So, when can we expect the rPhone to hit the markets? D Apr 06 00:39:09 :D Apr 06 00:39:10 TAsn: to be honest - dont know. my guess though right now for a "dev board' version Apr 06 00:39:39 (that means mallish board about the size of a phone with lcd with a ts panel on it, all the components there and a 2g daughterboard) maybe $300 or $400 Apr 06 00:39:44 but it depends on how many can be made Apr 06 00:39:56 sweet Apr 06 00:40:00 i.e everything without a case? Apr 06 00:40:00 making 1 or 2 will cost maybe $2000-$3000 a piece Apr 06 00:40:06 just costs Apr 06 00:40:12 if we can make 100 Apr 06 00:40:13 it coems down Apr 06 00:40:14 1000 Apr 06 00:40:16 further Apr 06 00:40:17 etc. Apr 06 00:40:18 and yes Apr 06 00:40:19 without a case Apr 06 00:40:21 or battery Apr 06 00:40:27 i c. Apr 06 00:40:30 we need to talk about this more Apr 06 00:40:31 and see Apr 06 00:40:43 but its an idea to be a step on the way to a full phone Apr 06 00:40:48 i'd buy a dev kit with now case :) Apr 06 00:41:08 we'd hoep the dev kit may be interesting to people wanting to use it for other things Apr 06 00:41:16 eg in little gadgets of their own they want to makre Apr 06 00:41:21 their own projects Apr 06 00:41:40 raster, it'll sound for appealing if you get a case for it. Apr 06 00:41:46 and a bat. Apr 06 00:41:48 I mean for people Apr 06 00:42:03 i know Apr 06 00:42:05 (concerning the gadgets and own projects ideas) Apr 06 00:42:15 that may be a stage 2 Apr 06 00:42:21 a really ugly/rough plastic case Apr 06 00:42:29 and battery Apr 06 00:42:40 but to go to a real production phone will be a lot more Apr 06 00:42:43 man, this is so expensive Apr 06 00:42:54 holycow: making hw is damn expensive Apr 06 00:42:57 but then it occured to me if one wanted to raise a million you only need 1000 people * 1000 Apr 06 00:42:58 unless oyu alreay make lots of it Apr 06 00:43:01 lol @ only Apr 06 00:43:02 have produciton lines set up already Apr 06 00:43:09 To be honest it's not exactly my idea. Nevertheless we all get inspiration from various source ;-) >>[2009-04-06 02:20:39] though joerg had a nice idea Apr 06 00:43:15 oh yeah? neat Apr 06 00:43:22 raster, of course. Apr 06 00:43:31 and its all about quantity Apr 06 00:43:37 its setup costs that really kill Apr 06 00:43:39 Raster, do you have a master plan of any sort written out (stages, steps) ? Apr 06 00:43:45 it'd be nice to put this to paper Apr 06 00:43:45 if u can make (And sell) 1,000,000 units Apr 06 00:43:49 you can make them cheap Apr 06 00:43:56 thats how the cheap "featurephones" work Apr 06 00:43:57 business plan Apr 06 00:44:01 they sell 10,000,000 of one Apr 06 00:44:11 and cut the comonents down the cheapest they can find Apr 06 00:44:13 if you had 10 000 people financing it, each only needs to contribute $100 Apr 06 00:44:20 if they can save $1 on component costs Apr 06 00:44:21 pfft Apr 06 00:44:25 thats $10,000,000 extra profit Apr 06 00:44:40 the problem with an open phone or dev device is the small unit numbers Apr 06 00:44:42 holycow: and if you have .1 people financing it, you need $10m per. Apr 06 00:44:46 positive cash flow Apr 06 00:44:58 DocScrutinizer: you get credit for it though :) Apr 06 00:45:00 (sell 10,000,000) with SIM builtin and precharged, to throw away after credit expired ;-) Apr 06 00:45:03 shellevil: heh Apr 06 00:45:13 bah Apr 06 00:45:19 Joerg :P Apr 06 00:45:19 Dave: have a plan that covers the end game Apr 06 00:45:22 but as said Apr 06 00:45:25 Yeah Apr 06 00:45:26 i need to write this up better Apr 06 00:45:30 I hope so Apr 06 00:45:39 Will you forward some of what you come up with? Apr 06 00:46:02 yes yes Apr 06 00:46:04 as i said Apr 06 00:46:10 i should actually draw up a nice mockup design Apr 06 00:46:12 raster: what's with bearstech? I'd like to join... ;-) Apr 06 00:46:22 Yeah Apr 06 00:46:23 maybe even get a new job ;D Apr 06 00:46:23 DocScrutinizer: i dont know Apr 06 00:46:26 That's also what I'm looking for Apr 06 00:46:51 DocScrutinizer: all i know is that ainudale and ptitjes are from there Apr 06 00:46:55 and somethng is going on Apr 06 00:47:00 and they want an open phone too Apr 06 00:47:04 raster: solid models are good. Apr 06 00:47:10 * shellevil makes them from cheese. Apr 06 00:47:14 Can't we just all unite to form voltron? Apr 06 00:47:19 shellevil: i'm a 3d design whore Apr 06 00:47:19 I think the software is getting amazingly better Apr 06 00:47:24 raster :) Apr 06 00:47:25 shellevil: i'll 3d model it Apr 06 00:47:27 oh really? I thought they just got a sponsored webspace there Apr 06 00:47:27 yeah Apr 06 00:47:33 raster: can't eat failed 3d models. Apr 06 00:47:40 and people come up with great software all the time. Apr 06 00:47:43 shellevil: HAHAHHA Apr 06 00:47:50 shellevil: 've tried learning blender Apr 06 00:47:57 haha Apr 06 00:47:58 but man .. it thrawts my every attemtp to do anything useful in it Apr 06 00:48:13 i'm going to boot into windows and break out my good old lightwave... Apr 06 00:48:13 so you'll probably have a leading start Apr 06 00:48:18 long live lightwave Apr 06 00:48:23 awww Apr 06 00:48:27 heh! Apr 06 00:48:28 hehe Apr 06 00:48:30 old school Apr 06 00:48:31 right on :) Apr 06 00:48:33 :] Apr 06 00:48:35 blender my self Apr 06 00:48:45 will your prototype blend? :P Apr 06 00:48:50 find out on our next episode! Apr 06 00:48:50 i have tried and tried with blender Apr 06 00:48:55 wow Apr 06 00:48:56 but its so.. unitunitive Apr 06 00:48:59 sounds real painful Apr 06 00:49:01 doing anything is painful Apr 06 00:49:02 yeah Apr 06 00:49:05 it pisses me the fuck off all the time Apr 06 00:49:12 i just pine and pine for lightwave when i use it Apr 06 00:49:13 don't waste your time, raster Apr 06 00:49:17 its that bad Apr 06 00:49:24 inkscape is nice for 3d Apr 06 00:49:24 hey man, you gotta do what you gotta do Apr 06 00:49:26 err 2d Apr 06 00:49:35 if lw works, then no need to sweat it Apr 06 00:49:36 but for this i want to do good 3d Apr 06 00:49:40 Great, managed to boot from SD using a image I downloaded from the shr-testing download area. It probably was my compile of shr-testing which had a faulty kernel. Apr 06 00:49:47 Ah ;) Apr 06 00:49:47 i like inkscape Apr 06 00:49:49 the catch Apr 06 00:49:51 if i already knew blende r- i'd be doing it there Apr 06 00:49:52 holycow, yeah heh Apr 06 00:50:00 Now, if only they had a .tar.gz of the full image instead of just the lite image Apr 06 00:50:28 Dave, what's your timezone? Apr 06 00:50:43 I used to do a lot with 3dsm, blender, milkshape etc Apr 06 00:50:49 Tasn, NYC Apr 06 00:50:55 DST Apr 06 00:51:05 Dave Standard Time ;D Apr 06 00:51:05 gmt - what? Apr 06 00:51:08 ;] Apr 06 00:51:20 Whatever it is now Apr 06 00:51:39 -5? Apr 06 00:51:53 oh, so that's why you are always here. Apr 06 00:51:54 ;] Apr 06 00:52:13 when I at work you sleep. Apr 06 00:52:13 ;] Apr 06 00:52:41 I'm Apr 06 00:54:02 :P Apr 06 00:54:05 OR AM I? Apr 06 00:54:06 well, it's 4am Apr 06 00:54:06 ;) Apr 06 00:54:09 time to go to bed. Apr 06 00:54:14 Heh Apr 06 00:54:17 I'm up in 3 hrs ;] Apr 06 00:54:20 Yeah, I think you deserve a little Apr 06 00:54:21 hahaha Apr 06 00:54:23 assy Apr 06 00:54:26 was a nice chat though Apr 06 00:54:36 Certainly :) Apr 06 00:54:38 I'm looking forward for this rPhone. Apr 06 00:54:39 ;] Apr 06 00:54:42 raster: my only advice to you is do everythign you can to guarantee sales up front and deliver a working phone :) Apr 06 00:54:43 Yep Apr 06 00:54:48 It's be a long conspiracy coming... Apr 06 00:54:49 everyting else can be handled Apr 06 00:55:00 holycow, actually, that's a bit easier than it used to be Apr 06 00:55:08 my only fear... Apr 06 00:55:09 since he has everything written for om Apr 06 00:55:11 The world isn't ready yet... Apr 06 00:55:37 actually, I think shr is decent enough. not for production but for a base system. Apr 06 00:55:43 Dave, tam tam tam. Apr 06 00:56:00 :) Apr 06 00:56:00 TAsn: you think? Apr 06 00:56:14 holycow, not for production! Apr 06 00:56:31 but I use it everyday, it lacks stuff, though it has potential. Apr 06 00:56:33 holycow: man.. i'm doing that.. or trying Apr 06 00:57:04 the framework is also good (when they'll be over porting it to vala) Apr 06 00:57:06 ie basically hunting down what would probably be the biggest customers and get their input on it and at least their nod of 'if this thing exists.. we are very interested in buying" Apr 06 00:57:15 (for sales) Apr 06 00:57:17 yeah Apr 06 00:57:20 and working.. damn hell it has to work Apr 06 00:57:23 make damn calls Apr 06 00:57:27 raster, lol. Apr 06 00:57:31 and not crash or run out of battery in 10hrs Apr 06 00:57:33 i don't even know wher eto begin Apr 06 00:57:36 yeah Apr 06 00:57:42 I do Apr 06 00:57:47 thus my interest in not going into bizarre chips .. like glamo Apr 06 00:57:49 I'm already planning, plotting, and scheming :) Apr 06 00:57:55 omap3 has the best vendor support i've seen for a soc Apr 06 00:57:57 (from ti) Apr 06 00:57:58 Raster, good move :) Apr 06 00:58:00 raster, actually I thought about something Apr 06 00:58:07 they are doing all the work for it already and pushing it upsteram to mainline kernel Apr 06 00:58:08 maybe have a dual sys of some sort. Apr 06 00:58:08 my only suggestion is the pre-purchase idea. get a 1000 people or more to drop some cash up front with a 98% money return guarantee Apr 06 00:58:09 powermanagement and all Apr 06 00:58:16 omap3 technically remvoes th need for suspend/resume Apr 06 00:58:19 you can do it through some sort of proxy i'm sure Apr 06 00:58:20 yeah it's pretty amazing Apr 06 00:58:26 which uncomplicates a mountain of kernel work Apr 06 00:58:45 poor pandora... Apr 06 00:58:49 oh well Apr 06 00:58:49 i've chosen a wifi chip i know alreayd has open drivers written and i2s known to work .. with the omap3 Apr 06 00:58:54 we learned from their follies Apr 06 00:59:07 looking at using the same accelerometers and gps the gta02 uses Apr 06 00:59:08 raster, more models! Apr 06 00:59:12 they are fine and good chips Apr 06 00:59:17 Fine and dandy! Apr 06 00:59:18 pandora is on track for delivery, no? Apr 06 00:59:28 omap3 is a very powerful chip Apr 06 00:59:29 aren't they terribly inaccurate? (both) Apr 06 00:59:31 comes in various models Apr 06 00:59:44 I was referring to Apr 06 00:59:48 looking at using the same accelerometers and gps the gta02 uses Apr 06 00:59:51 3503 (basic cpu and neon simd - nothing much else (well hw video codecs and the 4 layer vidoe planes) Apr 06 01:00:04 3525 (arm+neon+dsp) so u get a 430mhs ti dsp too Apr 06 01:00:08 its not 100% open Apr 06 01:00:10 but 805 open now Apr 06 01:00:15 ti is getting better at it over time Apr 06 01:00:20 err 80% open Apr 06 01:00:28 3530 is arm+neon+dsp+sgx Apr 06 01:00:29 bah, I really should go to sleep. Apr 06 01:00:31 sgx is closed as it gets Apr 06 01:00:33 wow, unadvertised reboot on klofisch :-( Apr 06 01:00:37 binary only userspace libgl's Apr 06 01:00:37 closed and working > open and not working Apr 06 01:00:42 kernel driver parts open tho Apr 06 01:00:43 ^ Apr 06 01:00:52 personalyl i'd go for a 3530 Apr 06 01:00:54 > is bigger than, not an arrow of some sort Apr 06 01:00:54 ;] Apr 06 01:00:55 and simply say Apr 06 01:01:08 TAsn: that sort of undermines the whole point Apr 06 01:01:18 "sgx is there - but we dont use it for the gui and binary drivers are over here (libgles) if you really want it.. but thats up to you" Apr 06 01:01:18 this is openmoko not workingfuckitmoko Apr 06 01:01:24 dsp i would just leave alone for now Apr 06 01:01:29 but ti's dev tools are getting better Apr 06 01:01:49 but again Apr 06 01:01:55 the core arm soc is REALLY FAST Apr 06 01:02:02 alex-weej, but there are some levels of openess I'm willing to accept Apr 06 01:02:12 the arm core + neon simd unit (both totally open) are fast enough to play 720p mpeg4 Apr 06 01:02:14 because I still want a working phone. Apr 06 01:02:22 it has serious mojo Apr 06 01:02:24 raster: how powerful is the omap? can it run e17? Apr 06 01:02:26 raster, SWEET Apr 06 01:02:26 hmm Apr 06 01:02:27 so you dont need to use the dsp or sgx Apr 06 01:02:31 yeah Apr 06 01:02:33 they are just added silicon bonuses Apr 06 01:02:42 thus - i dont see a problem of them being there and lurking "unused" Apr 06 01:02:52 or if peolpe are willing to accept partial closedness. they cna use them Apr 06 01:03:00 but out of the box the phone, ui and os wont rely on them Apr 06 01:03:11 holycow: the omap3 is being used in netbooks Apr 06 01:03:14 holycow: its fast. Apr 06 01:03:25 raster: can you write directly to the fb, instead of having to use that accel chip, then? Apr 06 01:03:31 the 600mhz omap3 keeps up with a 1ghz via eden mini-itx Apr 06 01:03:34 in speed Apr 06 01:03:38 looks quite cool a piece of silicon :) Apr 06 01:03:43 it can run a "lean" desktop Apr 06 01:03:48 (eg xfce, e17 etc.) Apr 06 01:04:02 yes raster, we've SEEN your benchmarks ;) Apr 06 01:04:05 cesarb: yup. the fb is on the soc Apr 06 01:04:08 fully documented Apr 06 01:04:16 you hsve 4 display planes Apr 06 01:04:20 2 rgb and 2 yuv Apr 06 01:04:25 http://www.alwaysinnovating.com/touchbook/ <- these guys are going to release a OMAP-based netbook, and you can already download the schematics! Apr 06 01:04:25 the sgx just writes to the same fb Apr 06 01:04:33 so you dont go thru an accel chip to use the fb Apr 06 01:04:33 raster: cool Apr 06 01:04:35 fb is "on board" Apr 06 01:04:35 my only concern is TI advertising those for "high-volume MP OEMs" Apr 06 01:04:43 sgx is just like another "cpu core" that has acess to the same fb ram Apr 06 01:04:47 raster: and, can you turn it off (gate its clock) if you will not use it? Apr 06 01:04:52 thgus why i consider it "ok" to ship with a closed 3d core Apr 06 01:04:58 as you can feasibly ignore it Apr 06 01:05:01 ad if it were not there Apr 06 01:05:03 and not suffer 1 bit Apr 06 01:05:09 and yes Apr 06 01:05:10 :) Apr 06 01:05:12 it canbe off Apr 06 01:05:31 in fact it will be off.. unless you turn it on as i undertsand it Apr 06 01:05:37 the kernel drivers are open Apr 06 01:05:46 cesarb, amazingly cool lappie Apr 06 01:05:51 the userepace libgl.so stuff to access the core and "make it do stuff" is closed Apr 06 01:06:12 DocScrutinizer: there are 2 arms to omap3 Apr 06 01:06:16 omap34xx and 35xx Apr 06 01:06:21 34xx is high volume oems Apr 06 01:06:23 yup Apr 06 01:06:27 done by the telecoms division Apr 06 01:06:28 freesmartphone.org: 03mickey 07cornucopia * rea8ffbd5540b 10/libfsoframework/fsoframework/ (fsoframework-2.0.gir fsoframework-2.0.vapi transport.vala): fsoframework: transport: add freeze and thaw to interface Apr 06 01:06:29 ahh ok Apr 06 01:06:29 freesmartphone.org: 03mickey 07cornucopia * rb5ce33817249 10/fsogsmd/ (6 files in 3 dirs): fsogsmd: add parser skeleton with tests Apr 06 01:06:30 TAsn: yeah, especially the "it has the schematics!" part (it is the only one besides OM I've seen with schematics so far) Apr 06 01:06:32 35xx is low voume Apr 06 01:06:41 ie pandora, beagleboard and a bunch of other stuff Apr 06 01:06:48 its exactly the same chip tho Apr 06 01:06:53 cesarb, I liked the 15 hours of battery no need to turn off part ;] Apr 06 01:06:54 :) Apr 06 01:07:01 raster: kinda strange Apr 06 01:07:06 yeah Apr 06 01:07:10 its a business thing inside ti Apr 06 01:07:11 raster: also think about politics of the situation Apr 06 01:07:12 TAsn: they say "10 to 15 hours", so I am considering it 10 hours Apr 06 01:07:24 you know a whole bunch of people will come out of the woodwork and whine about nonsense Apr 06 01:07:25 holycow: thats the fun bit Apr 06 01:07:30 not free enough and all that bullshit Apr 06 01:07:32 u can drop in a 3503 that has no dsp and no sgx at all Apr 06 01:07:33 i'm a freetard Apr 06 01:07:37 cesarb, that's also great. Apr 06 01:07:42 same identical chip - same pins. same drivers. same kernel Apr 06 01:07:42 but the road to freedom is paved with pain Apr 06 01:07:44 TAsn: agreed Apr 06 01:07:57 gahh freetards Apr 06 01:08:00 but all it does is remove the bits of silicon that had the sgx and dsp Apr 06 01:08:06 the price tag is also cool Apr 06 01:08:07 in honesty i bet u the silicon is still there Apr 06 01:08:11 just "Burnt off" Apr 06 01:08:11 400$ with keyboard Apr 06 01:08:13 300 without Apr 06 01:08:16 TAsn: not having to suspend (and thus being able to run stuff on the background all the time - did I mention I saw no fan in the schematic, and thus it probably does not heat much?) Apr 06 01:08:34 cesarb, yeah, they clearly state that. Apr 06 01:08:35 TAsn: you need the keyboard for the "10 hours time" since it has the second battery Apr 06 01:08:44 cesarb: you can run stuff in the bg Apr 06 01:08:44 raster: nobody even noticed if there's the chip *with* the closed-source-blocks :D Apr 06 01:08:44 BUT Apr 06 01:08:49 u will pay a price Apr 06 01:09:01 fredrin: without us you are nothing Apr 06 01:09:01 cesarb: basically it means if the cpu can stay idle Apr 06 01:09:04 i mean really idle Apr 06 01:09:07 like not hyandle any interrupt Apr 06 01:09:12 raster: just *tell* them "duh, it's no problem, look here..." Apr 06 01:09:13 it can go into a "suspend-line" mode Apr 06 01:09:18 where the cpu cloick turns off Apr 06 01:09:22 registers go into self-refresh Apr 06 01:09:25 holycow: :) Apr 06 01:09:27 and ram goes into self-refresh Apr 06 01:09:31 like suspend Apr 06 01:09:35 man, cellphones are so stupid Apr 06 01:09:37 except "wake" is instant (basically) Apr 06 01:09:41 on any timer/hw interrupt Apr 06 01:09:52 so instead of suspend/resume Apr 06 01:10:01 you now need to carefully make sure all your processe stay totally idle Apr 06 01:10:09 ie stop polling and ticking over doing things Apr 06 01:10:25 have a whitelist Apr 06 01:10:26 you can do some hacks like kill -STOP all non-whitelisted procs Apr 06 01:10:34 so go on a proces-sby-process suspend system Apr 06 01:10:40 and kill -CONT to resume them Apr 06 01:10:46 much simpler than a kernel suspend/resume Apr 06 01:10:52 and easier to control and debug Apr 06 01:11:11 whitelisted processes are ones that are known to understand "lowe power mode" messages (or are always assuming it) Apr 06 01:11:15 and dont poll often Apr 06 01:11:16 raster: doesn't recent kernel/gtk/etc have things to reduce the number of timer interrupts (which combined with tickless would allow that with no need to do anything special)? Apr 06 01:11:19 and instant response, thus much more powersaving Apr 06 01:11:21 (mayeb every 10 seconds and all at the same time) Apr 06 01:11:25 are only event driven Apr 06 01:11:33 and know how to stay "quiet" Apr 06 01:11:39 raster: rounding timer expiry to multiples of 1 second... Apr 06 01:11:49 cesarb: yes. fuzzy interrupts Apr 06 01:11:52 that tries to merge them Apr 06 01:11:56 but it isnt just that Apr 06 01:11:58 that helps Apr 06 01:12:03 you want to not poll at all Apr 06 01:12:07 not even every second or 2 Apr 06 01:12:12 u want to really sleep for longer Apr 06 01:12:14 cesarb: imagine a clock that's going to refresh display every second Apr 06 01:12:22 yes Apr 06 01:12:30 even that clock will be bad for "zero-clock" Apr 06 01:12:40 every second wakeup will mean you suffer Apr 06 01:12:50 raster: well, for some things you need one interrupt per second... like for a xterm blinking cursor ;-) Apr 06 01:12:51 * cesarb hides Apr 06 01:12:52 that clock needs to only display and wake up every minute Apr 06 01:12:55 nmot every second Apr 06 01:13:04 cesarb: then xterm is not whitelisted Apr 06 01:13:10 suffer badly Apr 06 01:13:16 unless it knows about lowe pwoer mode and disables its blinking when that mode is on Apr 06 01:13:48 exactly Apr 06 01:14:00 so you whitelist procs that are nice Apr 06 01:14:04 ie ones KNOWN to play nice Apr 06 01:14:07 and hey you can survive without blinken cursor Apr 06 01:14:10 :D Apr 06 01:14:12 anything else is blacklisted Apr 06 01:14:17 (actually you want multiple levels Apr 06 01:14:26 I agree Apr 06 01:14:28 you want "low power, screen off, full power" for example Apr 06 01:14:44 has-focus... Apr 06 01:14:48 Huzzah! Apr 06 01:14:51 sorry, missed it in the scroll, the cpu is powerfull enough to things like e17/gnome? Apr 06 01:14:54 lowe power means klill -STOP all procs not in the "low power" whitelist Apr 06 01:14:59 that is a short list Apr 06 01:15:03 including basic system daemons Apr 06 01:15:06 and pwoer management stuff Apr 06 01:15:20 holycow: gnome is a stretch - but xfce, e17 is fine Apr 06 01:15:23 as i said Apr 06 01:15:36 its about the speed of a 1ghz via eden mini-itx system Apr 06 01:15:43 same as the hp mini-note 2133 Apr 06 01:15:49 oh, aha. sweet, thats goog enough Apr 06 01:15:50 (the 1ghz via version) Apr 06 01:15:57 its fast enough to run a netbook Apr 06 01:16:05 thats why i have talked of breaking out the lcd out Apr 06 01:16:05 yes Apr 06 01:16:14 and usb otg to a usb hub (powered) in a cradle Apr 06 01:16:21 and have dvi out from the lcd Apr 06 01:16:23 that neat Apr 06 01:16:24 yeah that's hot Apr 06 01:16:25 indeed Apr 06 01:16:31 it literall yCAN be a "low powered desktop" Apr 06 01:16:31 that would be v cool Apr 06 01:16:32 and should be equally appealing to the masses Apr 06 01:16:34 given the right hw plugged in Apr 06 01:16:46 a phone that.. at your desk just sloits into cradle Apr 06 01:16:52 and you can do all your desktop stuff Apr 06 01:16:58 on a "big screen" Apr 06 01:17:02 then when you ened to go away Apr 06 01:17:08 just pick it up and put in pocket Apr 06 01:17:12 and keep using Apr 06 01:17:27 thew ui simply needs to reconfigure itself from cradle to pocket mode Apr 06 01:17:31 resize screen res Apr 06 01:17:32 thats TOTALLY awesome Apr 06 01:17:34 love that Apr 06 01:17:38 wm needs to change window management policy Apr 06 01:17:41 etc. etc. Apr 06 01:17:55 apps probably should adapt their dpi and font sizes Apr 06 01:17:57 but thats doable Apr 06 01:17:59 hell yeah! Apr 06 01:18:08 so it kind of bridges a gap between netbook and smartphone Apr 06 01:18:16 yeah, which is cute, yet effective Apr 06 01:18:22 and should bring more appeal to the table :) Apr 06 01:18:23 when at desk - its a low-horsepowe desktop Apr 06 01:18:29 hehe Apr 06 01:18:33 or a thin client Apr 06 01:18:34 when in your pocket its a immensely powerful smartphone Apr 06 01:18:36 yup Apr 06 01:18:39 :] Apr 06 01:18:44 it has uses beyond being a phone Apr 06 01:18:50 brasil could be a nice market Apr 06 01:18:57 thats part of the idea Apr 06 01:19:00 but it wouldnt be too cheap Apr 06 01:19:05 i guess around $700 Apr 06 01:19:07 just don't forget a working phone app :) SOOOO important Apr 06 01:19:09 heh Apr 06 01:19:09 but if u think about it Apr 06 01:19:12 cheap Apr 06 01:19:12 thats the full price of an iphone Apr 06 01:19:23 a working phone app would even let me sneak the device in via the back door Apr 06 01:19:24 the prices u see are subsidised by the telco Apr 06 01:19:30 and if u think Apr 06 01:19:35 barato Apr 06 01:19:42 we can always figure out the other stuff later Apr 06 01:19:48 "a phone will cost me $X, then a desktop or laptop $Y - add them up" Apr 06 01:19:54 of course this assumes u are buying both Apr 06 01:20:08 we do Apr 06 01:20:13 what i am dealing with now Apr 06 01:20:18 is buying fricking lapptops Apr 06 01:20:21 this could be good for sales people Apr 06 01:20:30 who are always going in and out of the office Apr 06 01:20:34 and then buying rogers rocket sticks for them so they can browse the net while away Apr 06 01:20:42 they forget to sync their presentations or spreadsheets Apr 06 01:20:47 now they dont care anymore Apr 06 01:21:11 right Apr 06 01:21:17 i could see some universities considering it Apr 06 01:21:32 currently some, as part of tuition, buy all students a laptop Apr 06 01:21:49 i could see them considering buying such a smartphone - cum - desktop Apr 06 01:22:00 dorms would have the cradels kitted out and kbd's and screens Apr 06 01:22:03 but first it's a cellphone, people love their cellphones Apr 06 01:22:09 right Apr 06 01:22:10 yup Apr 06 01:22:14 it would do that too Apr 06 01:22:18 making calls Apr 06 01:22:27 (and so on) is a primary point of existenc Apr 06 01:22:33 this is just making use of the power of the soc Apr 06 01:22:37 raster, it's more imaginable than you think :) Apr 06 01:22:40 if you just break out the right io lines Apr 06 01:22:47 write all these things down Apr 06 01:22:50 it CAN be so much more.. if you simply allow for it Apr 06 01:23:00 linux already has a decent set of "normal day to day" desktop stuff Apr 06 01:23:03 like openoffice Apr 06 01:23:04 firefox Apr 06 01:23:08 evolution Apr 06 01:23:09 etc. Apr 06 01:23:14 pidgin Apr 06 01:23:14 sure, but first a kick ass phone, that sells it self when you show it around Apr 06 01:23:23 enough for - when in "Desktop mode" to cover most peoples day-to-day needs Apr 06 01:23:26 and work fine Apr 06 01:23:35 and in phone mode - we simply need to work on that stuff Apr 06 01:23:41 so the deskotp side imho is already solved and done Apr 06 01:23:50 nothnig left to do but let the hw break it out Apr 06 01:23:50 yup Apr 06 01:23:55 and have the switch to go back and forth Apr 06 01:24:00 np Apr 06 01:24:01 I use "Bar Mode" Apr 06 01:24:06 so to me at elast desktop mode is a "small effort" not a big on3e Apr 06 01:24:15 for nokia to do this with symbian would be a huge effort Apr 06 01:24:21 same for most phones Apr 06 01:24:24 hehehe Apr 06 01:24:25 it would not be possible Apr 06 01:24:26 true Apr 06 01:24:28 winmobile - maybe Apr 06 01:24:33 raster: we will need a desktop repo and mobile repo Apr 06 01:24:40 fuuuuck Apr 06 01:24:45 it's not like the FR gives you LESS ideas, lol Apr 06 01:24:50 but this is where linux will show its true strengths Apr 06 01:25:02 holycow: why 2 repos? Apr 06 01:25:18 desktop apps are not designed for the small screen Apr 06 01:25:22 sure Apr 06 01:25:24 holycow: we're not using different apps Apr 06 01:25:30 but they can be installed on and in at the same time Apr 06 01:25:36 and i doubt anyone will devote time to modify/port Apr 06 01:25:48 you have the desktop apps installed anyway Apr 06 01:25:54 when you go from one mode to another Apr 06 01:25:56 things like oo i don't thin kcan be be modified to work on the small scrren, their code base is just too fucked Apr 06 01:26:01 we can tag windows to be hidden or closed Apr 06 01:26:03 eg Apr 06 01:26:12 phone mode apps may "minimize" when in desktop mode Apr 06 01:26:14 and vice-versa Apr 06 01:26:18 thats not a problem Apr 06 01:26:25 u'd have oo there anyway Apr 06 01:26:25 or just upsample the whole desktop to new res Apr 06 01:26:30 and then u'd have a pocket-oo Apr 06 01:26:43 DocScrutinizer: possible.. but truly nasty Apr 06 01:26:50 hehe true Apr 06 01:26:51 for now i'd rather just hide/show the particular windows Apr 06 01:26:55 thats easy to do Apr 06 01:27:00 normal windows are "desktop" Apr 06 01:27:03 or just a teeny 'phone' console Apr 06 01:27:08 and phone app windows add a special proeprty to mark them Apr 06 01:27:11 as a window on the big desktop Apr 06 01:27:16 as we are writing the phone apps anyway for small screen Apr 06 01:27:21 or porting/changing uis' for a phone mode Apr 06 01:27:29 a *decent* app would just work fine on resize-win msg Apr 06 01:27:30 shellevil: thats possible Apr 06 01:27:36 a separate "screen" or desktop Apr 06 01:27:48 again - its not hard Apr 06 01:27:51 u can tackle it a dozen ways Apr 06 01:27:59 two xservers Apr 06 01:27:59 but u';dhave apps that are for desktop Apr 06 01:28:05 that simply dont work on phone-sized screens Apr 06 01:28:13 phone apps likely will work just fine ont eh desktop tho Apr 06 01:28:13 yeah, exactly! Apr 06 01:28:14 cellphones are some kind of comunity devices, like your social network and a connection to the official world, maybe the focus should be more that and not only free and linux, but not a super big selling point Apr 06 01:28:25 DocScrutinizer: no need. 1 xserver can be reconfigired Apr 06 01:28:31 BE COOL Apr 06 01:28:31 DocScrutinizer: the wm can do it all easily Apr 06 01:28:34 OWN AN RPHONE! Apr 06 01:28:35 thats what wm's are for Apr 06 01:28:36 :) Apr 06 01:28:52 :D Apr 06 01:28:59 Dave: RJPHONE ! ;) Apr 06 01:28:59 fredrin: yes. i agree Apr 06 01:29:06 DRJPHONE? Apr 06 01:29:06 but thats a matter of more apps and software Apr 06 01:29:10 hahaha Apr 06 01:29:12 hahaha Apr 06 01:29:18 works out well Apr 06 01:29:30 fredrin: i ahve floated about before that with an open "contact manager" Apr 06 01:29:33 Fuck, at least it's not a PHONE Apr 06 01:29:34 :P Apr 06 01:29:38 Good job, OM! Apr 06 01:29:40 you could merge in things like "facebook friends" into yoru contacts Apr 06 01:29:44 a bit of code and bingo Apr 06 01:29:57 grouped contacts manager Apr 06 01:29:58 but we atill are working on the score simple one first Apr 06 01:30:02 sure sure Apr 06 01:30:08 more to come after the plot thickens ;) Apr 06 01:30:17 and so does financial backing and potential customers :) Apr 06 01:31:19 all those things could be easily done with a webserver on the phone. Connect to the wifi and start the webserver, and people can share stuff Apr 06 01:31:30 pfft Apr 06 01:31:56 iPhone user can access my phone even Apr 06 01:32:02 -_- Apr 06 01:32:08 and then i run a exploit.... Apr 06 01:32:17 heh Apr 06 01:32:20 Dave: i have some of this all written down in a plan Apr 06 01:32:24 on iphone everything runs as root or something Apr 06 01:32:27 shouldn't behard Apr 06 01:32:29 Good, good... Apr 06 01:32:32 but i need to expand this to a bigger pricture with more stages Apr 06 01:32:37 and some sexy piccies to make people drool Apr 06 01:32:38 Totally Apr 06 01:32:39 with rasters we can run a proper os with proper lockdown and security Apr 06 01:32:41 i guess safari got some bugs Apr 06 01:32:42 of course Apr 06 01:32:47 eventually we'll get there, raster Apr 06 01:32:55 whether you get your head wrapped around blender or not ;) Apr 06 01:33:00 teehee Apr 06 01:40:25 hahaha Apr 06 01:41:02 * mwester notes the radical departure from the Om disastrous business plan: "sexy piccies to make people drool" is an afterthought to the technical requirements. Apr 06 01:41:23 If only Sean had thought that way. Apr 06 01:42:09 :) Apr 06 01:42:44 a self selling device Apr 06 01:43:03 I hate to say it, but --- that's what works for Apple. Apr 06 01:43:33 mwester: already have a lot of the tech requirements Apr 06 01:43:38 the problem is this has to be sold to people with money Apr 06 01:44:05 they dont get hot and sweaty on handing over money with a page full onf acronyms, numbers and things they just dont understand. Apr 06 01:44:29 And Om has "contaminated" those waters with such investors. Apr 06 01:44:30 i need the sexy pics in addition to the nitty details Apr 06 01:44:39 possibly not Apr 06 01:45:00 You think they're smart enough to realize the problem was Om, and not the market for the device? Apr 06 01:47:01 mwester: I don't think we'll ever run into any of the investors OM "contaminated" Apr 06 01:47:20 a phone company needs to put some money on the table, they got lots of money, and even make good money in deflating times, ref Argentina. Apr 06 01:47:23 Ah, ok. Apr 06 01:48:13 mwester: that would dep3end on how far and wide they went for funding Apr 06 01:48:14 :) Apr 06 01:48:49 but comunity founding could be possible, like football clubs Apr 06 01:48:53 mwester: we just have to avoid advertising our origin ;-) As OM "contaminated" public perception of OM ;) Apr 06 01:49:03 mwester: buyt like anything. you have to make them believe in you Apr 06 01:49:05 mwester, I think ANdroid will be an important test. It is too close to being open for it to remain locked down. If jailbreaking leads to an interesting ecosystem which is more exciting than the 5,000 flashlight and fart applications offered at the Android Market, then things will look good. Apr 06 01:49:10 not just that you can do it Apr 06 01:49:24 but that it will succeed (commercially) and actually end up making a boatload of money in the end Apr 06 01:49:29 or be "Worth a lot" Apr 06 01:49:33 facebook loses money Apr 06 01:49:35 but tis WORTH a lot Apr 06 01:49:39 thats what they care about Apr 06 01:49:47 then hope to "exit plan" while its worth a lot Apr 06 01:49:47 :) Apr 06 01:49:51 KenYoung: I have hopes that Android will "break free". :) Perhaps we should help it along, on the FR... Apr 06 01:50:32 raster: hehe Apr 06 01:50:44 raster, you capitalist you! :D Apr 06 01:50:48 mwester, I have a G1, and it's amazing how crappy the Android Market applications are. Apr 06 01:51:07 KenYoung: I've heard the same said of the Fart and Flashlight apps for the iphone. Apr 06 01:51:15 sell it like skype for ~3.5 billion ;D Apr 06 01:51:57 DocScrutinizer: :) Apr 06 01:52:35 :] Apr 06 01:52:58 * mwester really likes the "bigger screen" concept; consider that opens the door to OpenOffice being practical... and _real_ business applications for companies to equip field folks with devices Apr 06 01:53:11 right Apr 06 01:53:22 Absolutely Apr 06 01:53:51 but first is must be a phone, the ultimate old school gadget everyone in the world almost has Apr 06 01:53:55 AND you still can hook up a TV via AV-jack *without* the cradle :) Apr 06 01:53:57 Big screens for us nearly blind baby boomers. Apr 06 01:54:05 heh Apr 06 01:54:07 DocScrutinizer: of course Apr 06 01:54:09 And ecosystems around that -- consider that in a college town where the college has equipped the facilities with the display units, there is potential for my coffee shop to embed same in the tabletops or counters, or on the walls if I wish the students to favor me. Apr 06 01:54:17 Or the nearest airport... Apr 06 01:54:32 yeah we [can] have that here Apr 06 01:56:13 mwester: could be Apr 06 01:56:54 but i like more the phone company way of making money Apr 06 01:59:45 nothing wrong in being tied in to a phone company, in norway virtual phone companies are common Apr 06 02:02:06 mwester: its not me... the vc's are capitalists. well i am.. but not as much. i simply am playing their game. as thats what they want to hear Apr 06 02:04:08 if the VC are smart, they understand that a cool phone they like to use, that is CHEAP and makes a profit is something worth betting on Apr 06 02:05:11 raster: don't be apologetic! Apr 06 02:07:05 fredrin: unless it can sell millions.. it wont be cheap Apr 06 02:07:13 even if it sells a few hundred thousand.. it still cant be that cheap Apr 06 02:09:17 mwester: in the end to do this kind of thing u need $ Apr 06 02:09:22 not just love and free software Apr 06 02:09:30 and if that emans appealing to the hip pockets of those with the $ Apr 06 02:09:31 so be it Apr 06 02:10:23 and not just voluntary hw-developers ;-) Apr 06 02:11:02 Motorola did fine as long as they stuck with that strategy; Apple did pretty well with a premium-pricing strategy, and so does RIM. There's no reason a $500 phone won't sell, and it'll sell better if it has a "big brother" version around $700 or so. Apr 06 02:11:28 problem with investors is they wwant some profit Apr 06 02:11:38 mwester: that's on our list already ;) Apr 06 02:11:39 mwester: in that way i'm warming to the idea of there being a baseband module Apr 06 02:11:41 Over time, there's no reason a $300 - $350 version can't be produced, when quantities get high enough. :) Apr 06 02:11:56 ie a way to plug in the 2g or 3g in a daughterboard setup Apr 06 02:12:00 like gumstix does Apr 06 02:12:03 if u cant afford cash u certaintly cant afford cash plus 16 % Apr 06 02:12:21 break out all the spare sdio/usb/gpio/spi/i2c lines not used to the daughterboard Apr 06 02:12:31 and u can start with a cheap version with 2.5/2.75g on it Apr 06 02:12:36 and have a 3g version (for more) later Apr 06 02:12:41 raster: good idea -- opens another possible market, which would be as a PDA-replacement. Apr 06 02:13:07 even think about soraya/iridium ;-) Apr 06 02:13:13 :) Apr 06 02:13:35 * mwester notes all the speciialized "hacks" companies have done to the Palm PDA devices -- badge readers at trade shows, inventory devices w/bar code readers, etc. Apr 06 02:13:39 mwester: yes. and if u have "Excess" lines there.. you can add different expansion boards later Apr 06 02:13:45 :) Apr 06 02:13:45 eg 2g+wimax Apr 06 02:13:51 or 3g+wimax Apr 06 02:14:01 or god knwos what else can be plugged onto usb/sdio etc. lines Apr 06 02:14:11 much more fancy things Apr 06 02:14:34 right Apr 06 02:14:37 delicious Apr 06 02:14:42 * mwester notes the possibility of data aquisition devices. Apr 06 02:15:00 mwester: which sort of aquisition? Apr 06 02:15:38 evil! Apr 06 02:15:38 laser barcode reader, big kbd taped to your left forearm? Apr 06 02:15:39 The obvious market would be labs, starting with college labs and the students Apr 06 02:15:59 or temp sensor? things like that? Apr 06 02:16:10 who knows Apr 06 02:16:17 sure Apr 06 02:16:22 but it kind of "defers" the 2g vs 3g problme Apr 06 02:16:22 I could easily market that :] Apr 06 02:16:28 making it a daughterboard increases cost Apr 06 02:16:32 dont think it doesnt Apr 06 02:16:34 DocScrutinizer: no, things like a full data interface to high-end lab gear -- used to be GPIB (or something) when I was in school. Apr 06 02:16:35 cost goes up Apr 06 02:16:44 but if u accept it will be expensive anyway Apr 06 02:16:50 then ok Apr 06 02:17:25 mwester: I know, yeah. today it's more commonly USB or TCP Apr 06 02:17:33 graphing calculator? :D Apr 06 02:18:50 DocScrutinizer: that's even easier then. It should do that out-of-the-box. Apr 06 02:19:08 TCP would be a nice option anyway Apr 06 02:19:28 10B2 ;P Apr 06 02:19:32 mwester: the problem is its a duaghterboard Apr 06 02:19:35 u can put chips on it Apr 06 02:19:37 but then what Apr 06 02:19:44 aerials need connecting Apr 06 02:19:45 yeah yeah Apr 06 02:19:49 and external "laser" devices etc. Apr 06 02:19:57 there is no real standard way to do that Apr 06 02:20:24 raster: what, don't tell me you won't have spot with a standard-sized hole (you define "standard" for third-party designers to place the connector of choice? Apr 06 02:21:00 well it could be Apr 06 02:21:16 i guess if this is something near the battery compartment Apr 06 02:21:24 if u provide - with your dev9ice,a new battery cover Apr 06 02:21:33 with your device poking out of it/held by it Apr 06 02:21:35 then maybe Apr 06 02:21:42 Do it like the PC-cards, or SDIO cards -- it's a slot, not a hole, and the daughterboard protrudes if it must to offer its connector. Apr 06 02:22:04 Unless you intend to make the device waterproof, then that's a problem. Apr 06 02:22:40 rooly! Apr 06 02:23:06 more designs please! Apr 06 02:23:36 mwester: it's already on my agenda Apr 06 02:23:42 okay? Apr 06 02:23:43 :) Apr 06 02:23:47 dave, designs of what Apr 06 02:24:28 mwester: well the batery compartment can just get fatter to house stuff Apr 06 02:24:32 with the connectors being nearby Apr 06 02:24:48 Oooh - yeah! Apr 06 02:24:56 opening to side or backside Apr 06 02:25:24 take off old lid, lace on a thicker one, with active components Apr 06 02:25:44 * mwester has a treo650 -- aftermarket over-size battery with enlarged battery compartment door to accomodate is commonly available Apr 06 02:26:01 exactly this way Apr 06 02:26:19 mwester: thats kind of what i'm thiniing Apr 06 02:26:28 and in the top part of the battery door Apr 06 02:27:16 there is a bit of flat plastic there Apr 06 02:27:20 imagine it was longer Apr 06 02:27:33 with an empty bay under it where u plugged in the 2d or 3g module daughterboard Apr 06 02:27:49 if u had stuff to break out in terms of sensors Apr 06 02:27:53 hot Apr 06 02:27:59 it could be done via a new battery cover Apr 06 02:28:05 nice Apr 06 02:28:07 slick Apr 06 02:28:08 with the breakout sensors/whatever in the cover Apr 06 02:28:18 if all it is is a small laser and reciever Apr 06 02:28:29 the cover cna be the same size - just with small holes for the laser/rec Apr 06 02:28:40 if its bigger - well need to do a newer bigger cover to hold it Apr 06 02:28:52 but it'd lend itsefl to hw hacking and vertical markets Apr 06 02:29:24 perfectly Apr 06 02:29:38 as well as aftermarkets Apr 06 02:30:07 yup Apr 06 02:30:15 and it solves the 3g and 2g problme Apr 06 02:30:31 ie 2.75g (2g+edge) daughterboard can be an extra $100 Apr 06 02:30:39 (base phone without 2g for example is $600) Apr 06 02:30:52 and 3g can be $250 Apr 06 02:30:56 for the daughterboasrd Apr 06 02:30:57 for example Apr 06 02:31:07 or mroe realistic Apr 06 02:31:27 you might ge a prototype pcb+backlid Apr 06 02:31:30 $450 for phone with wifi, bt, gps, cpu Apr 06 02:31:36 and extra $100 for eg+edge daughterboard Apr 06 02:31:41 or add $250 for 3g Apr 06 02:31:47 so $550 or $700 Apr 06 02:32:07 if u just want a pda thing Apr 06 02:32:14 u can buy and not get 2g or 3g daughterboard Apr 06 02:32:32 U can even add sensors Apr 06 02:32:46 maybe even a 2nd screen Apr 06 02:33:14 transflexive one to show info on low power Apr 06 02:34:08 yes Apr 06 02:34:14 pushbuttons Apr 06 02:34:20 if u really wanted to be hacky u could somehow slide in another lcd on the back Apr 06 02:34:26 or epaper Apr 06 02:34:27 even Apr 06 02:34:30 YAY Apr 06 02:34:32 a mouse ;-) (duh, a great idea) Apr 06 02:34:36 or ePENIS! Apr 06 02:34:40 hahahaha Apr 06 02:34:51 then you can show all your friends how big it is Apr 06 02:35:04 so like the difference between ipod touch and iphone? Apr 06 02:35:04 :P Apr 06 02:35:16 * rooly likes this idea Apr 06 02:35:32 * DocScrutinizer starts thinking about micromechanics Apr 06 02:35:35 then you can satisfy people like me who don't give a rodent's patouti about 3g Apr 06 02:38:42 rooly: correct Apr 06 02:38:49 same "base system" Apr 06 02:39:00 with what amounts to a "custom phone" mini-pci bay in the back Apr 06 02:39:04 :] Apr 06 02:39:10 that bay holds nothing "ie ipod touch) Apr 06 02:39:13 and a tech could easily perform a swap if necessary Apr 06 02:39:14 holds 2g module Apr 06 02:39:14 or 3g Apr 06 02:39:17 :P Apr 06 02:39:20 awesomeness Apr 06 02:39:24 or in future any module anyone wants to produce for it Apr 06 02:39:36 it is a very very very simplified exansion system Apr 06 02:39:37 limited Apr 06 02:39:38 and we won't have an echo problem due to vacuous form factor :D Apr 06 02:39:57 a user with a screwdriver and being careful could do the swap Apr 06 02:40:02 right Apr 06 02:40:04 or possibly a whole other pci-extension module including usb support, graphics accelleration, and a keyboard/keyboard dock! Apr 06 02:40:07 but I'm thinking general masses Apr 06 02:40:07 though what i'd suggest is resellers do it Apr 06 02:40:11 right Apr 06 02:40:12 ie you ship boxes of phones Apr 06 02:40:14 :) Apr 06 02:40:15 boxes of "modules" Apr 06 02:40:19 * Dave high-fives raster Apr 06 02:40:22 and they customise per order Apr 06 02:40:36 ie they carefull (under controlled conditions) plug in the modules Apr 06 02:40:40 modules, lol Apr 06 02:40:52 thus users buy the device - as if it were any other integrated product Apr 06 02:40:55 out of the box it works Apr 06 02:41:00 if they really want to upgarde later themselevs Apr 06 02:41:05 they can buy a 3g module instead of a 2g Apr 06 02:41:08 throw the 2g out Apr 06 02:41:13 rooly: graphaccel won't happen Apr 06 02:41:19 q22 Apr 06 02:41:22 no Apr 06 02:41:23 aww Apr 06 02:41:28 q22 is the wrong row Apr 06 02:42:07 then how about at least usb support? Apr 06 02:42:22 Hi, how can I arrange desktop icons in folders in OM2008.12? I've seen something like this on a screenshot. Apr 06 02:42:47 muhxe: its a hack-script really Apr 06 02:42:47 ugghg fucking context switches Apr 06 02:42:49 rooly: think we need usb2otg as a basic function Apr 06 02:43:26 if you could fit a full usb port on this thing... Apr 06 02:43:29 that would be amazing Apr 06 02:43:40 a full usb port is HUGE Apr 06 02:43:41 cause you could do awesome things like displayport Apr 06 02:43:45 WHY Apr 06 02:43:48 i really dont think thats a good idea Apr 06 02:43:53 right Apr 06 02:43:55 * rooly is just thinking out loud Apr 06 02:43:57 np, get a backlid blowing the whole thing up by another 12mm ;-) Apr 06 02:44:02 rooly: dusplayport has nothnig to do with a full usb port on it Apr 06 02:44:04 it will just not work Apr 06 02:44:18 i figure it won't Apr 06 02:44:18 u want a usb otg port Apr 06 02:44:27 Correct Apr 06 02:44:28 and here's where i ask what otg means Apr 06 02:44:32 thats the standard connector for 1 device to act EITHER as host OR as gadget Apr 06 02:44:36 haha Apr 06 02:44:38 otg == usb on the go Apr 06 02:44:42 oh Apr 06 02:44:44 It's the future! Apr 06 02:44:46 ;] Apr 06 02:44:48 its a standard where u can detect if u plug a usb devicne in Apr 06 02:44:50 * Dave high-fives Joerg Apr 06 02:44:51 usbv3? Apr 06 02:44:54 or u plug the thing in to BE a usb device Apr 06 02:44:56 so it does both Apr 06 02:45:00 its not usbv3 Apr 06 02:45:05 so make it! Apr 06 02:45:07 usb3 is stupid Apr 06 02:45:07 nothign embedded does usb3 Apr 06 02:45:12 right Apr 06 02:45:14 otg is what u want Apr 06 02:45:15 wrong channel :P Apr 06 02:45:17 * rooly is snickering right now at his pretend ignorance Apr 06 02:45:24 hehehe Apr 06 02:45:25 I noticed Apr 06 02:46:02 pfff Apr 06 02:46:04 i missed about a good first half of this conversation Apr 06 02:46:09 was catching up on my news Apr 06 02:46:12 * DocScrutinizer considering to go to sleep Apr 06 02:46:14 nothing happens on sundays apparently Apr 06 02:46:19 so it didn't take long Apr 06 02:46:52 lots of things happen Apr 06 02:47:07 not according to my news feeds Apr 06 02:47:29 stars are born, galaxies fade away Apr 06 02:48:38 i don't think stars are officially declared 'born' from one earth day to the next Apr 06 02:48:52 i would think its a bit of a longer process than that Apr 06 02:49:12 but it's not stopping on Sundays for sure ;P Apr 06 02:49:35 likely not Apr 06 02:49:45 doesn't make it news-worthy Apr 06 02:49:56 we all know that the creation of order does not constitue news Apr 06 02:50:06 its only the creation of chaos Apr 06 02:50:35 * DocScrutinizer gooling for prozac Apr 06 02:50:41 ..? Apr 06 02:53:18 night Apr 06 02:53:56 get out Apr 06 02:55:50 :] Apr 06 02:57:44 noit! Apr 06 02:59:33 Yeah, I'm thinking of turning in myself. Apr 06 02:59:56 But please keep me up to date raster, and forward any and all materials you document and would like me to see :) **** ENDING LOGGING AT Mon Apr 06 02:59:58 2009