**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Fri Jun 19 02:59:58 2009 Jun 19 04:23:20 hey all Jun 19 04:23:27 I'm attempting to update my system with opkg Jun 19 04:23:51 when I run it, after doing a bunch of stuff, it prints out "fork failed, segmentation fault"... any idea how to fix or workaround? Jun 19 04:25:00 no memory? Jun 19 04:25:30 ? Jun 19 04:26:23 df shows only 40% full on /, top shows 37mb free RAM Jun 19 04:27:11 * df gives you 40% Jun 19 04:29:05 Huh... IRC. It's been a LONG time. Howdy all! I'm staring at a new Freerunner.... Jun 19 04:29:40 congrats Jun 19 04:30:43 does anyone have a distribution to recommend? I had planned on dorking around with this thing.... Until I misplaced my phone while camping this weekend. Suddenly it's a little more important to me that it works. So far I've flashed to OM2008.12. I'm downloading apps right now.... Jun 19 04:30:57 SHR or OM2009 are the popular ones Jun 19 04:30:58 I miss aptitude Jun 19 04:31:11 you can install debian on it if you wish Jun 19 04:32:17 Hmm.... OM2009 is working well? The wiki page made it sound as if it was less than stellar. Jun 19 04:32:22 so, no one else has seen segfaults in opkg? Jun 19 04:32:46 whistlingtony_: I upgraded to it from 2008.10 and it's way better, though far uglier. I can't speak to 2008.12 Jun 19 04:32:49 yanroy: I got a couple, but it was out of memory Jun 19 04:33:06 ndnihil: how did you detetrmine it was out of memory, and what did you do to fix it? Jun 19 04:33:20 so far, 2008.12 seems..... spartan. :D Jun 19 04:33:44 whistlingtony_: you'll probably think 2009 is more spatan Jun 19 04:33:48 *spartan Jun 19 04:35:09 Yanroy: because it was out of memory (try free -m), and to remedy it I dumped FDOM in favor of Jun 19 04:35:10 Hmm... I think I will try debian, just to have good old aptitude and the like back. Is it much work to adapt it to being a phone? I did read the wiki, and it doesn't seem THAT bad... any personal experiences? Jun 19 04:36:00 ndnihil: free -m shows 36, if I'm reading it right. what's FDOM? Jun 19 04:36:01 whistlingtony_: it's slow, and while not unusable as a phone, it's not as polished as SHR or OM, not that they are quite consumer-ready yet Jun 19 04:36:13 FDOM is a dist for the FR Jun 19 04:36:22 its bloated and unusable (in my opinion) Jun 19 04:36:26 I see Jun 19 04:36:37 ah, thanks ndnihil. Jun 19 04:36:55 does OM have lower runlevels that don't run a GUI but will keep the SSH alive? Jun 19 04:39:31 Yanroy: I dont recall (running SHR-unstable at the moment) Jun 19 04:39:42 you can just kill off the X server though Jun 19 04:40:07 /etc/init.d/xserver-nodm stop Jun 19 04:41:37 thanks for the advice all.... Heh, I'm sure I'll be back. Jun 19 04:41:43 g'night! Jun 19 04:41:52 heh... I don't suppose there's actually any way to type in the tty you get when the X server is stopped? :) Jun 19 04:41:55 night Jun 19 04:42:10 yanroy, opkg segfaults frequently Jun 19 04:42:18 for a number of reasons Jun 19 04:42:27 opkg is not a good package manager Jun 19 04:42:35 yep... Jun 19 04:42:44 I've been wishing for yum + rpm since day one... Jun 19 04:42:56 Yanroy: yes you can still interact with the tty, as long as it's by way of SSH and not X :) Jun 19 04:43:07 i'm moving to gentoo as soon as i can, i love the way emerge works Jun 19 04:43:14 emerge is pretty cool Jun 19 04:43:54 Yanroy: it might be an out of mem clause. the opkg installing is a way memory eating. Jun 19 04:44:07 it depacks into ram IMO Jun 19 04:44:12 just make a swap 8) Jun 19 04:44:21 hrm Jun 19 04:44:22 swap file e.x. Jun 19 04:44:35 or I'll just kill things until it work :P Jun 19 04:44:58 and then swapon /media/card/my_greatest_swappie Jun 19 04:45:05 8) Jun 19 04:45:11 that's not the only reason it crashes. fork failure, killed, segfault, etc. i added 500M swap from SD and it still crashes Jun 19 04:45:20 ouch, 500M? Jun 19 04:45:28 so killing things is not a valid approach... Jun 19 04:45:38 Blu3: that's wrong. should not be Jun 19 04:45:44 and yeah, I'm getting the fork failure message, followed quickly by segfault Jun 19 04:45:46 i thought maybe opkg was insanely eating large amounts of ram that i wasn't catching so i tried a huge swap Jun 19 04:46:08 it's running a lot longer now that I killed X, so maybe it will complete this time Jun 19 04:46:14 hopefully it won't crash while it's flashing something... Jun 19 04:46:46 right now i'm trying to get the new libc stuff installed. can't do it. opkg just falls over and dies Jun 19 04:46:48 you aren't in-OS when flashing Jun 19 04:47:07 so unless your bootloader crashes, you should be fine Jun 19 04:47:36 actually opkg flashes when updating the kernel Jun 19 04:47:39 I thought I've seen opkg flash new kernels Jun 19 04:47:50 ah, I haven't used it for kernel Jun 19 04:47:59 I always do kernels by way of DFU Jun 19 04:49:32 bbiab, time to get bubbly Jun 19 04:50:18 oh, yanroy, try increasing file-max; echo 32768 > /proc/sys/fs/file-max Jun 19 04:55:44 Blu3: if this fails again, I'll try that... thanks Jun 19 04:55:49 so far it's gone much further than last time Jun 19 05:02:29 good Jun 19 05:08:33 I wish I'd chosen to have it automatically install files from the packages instead of prompting me each time it gets confused... Jun 19 05:08:39 this is taking forever :P Jun 19 05:11:16 so is midori the browser of choice for OM2009? Jun 19 05:11:31 midori sucks Jun 19 05:11:34 I prefer dillo Jun 19 05:11:39 and is the package called "midori"? the wiki page about the different browsers is suspiciously silent on the topic of packages Jun 19 05:11:46 ok, dillo then... Jun 19 05:11:59 there was also one starting with an F that seemed like it might be good Jun 19 05:12:01 i don't browse much w/ my fone, but i use dillo a lot. i just reinstalled midori to check it out Jun 19 05:12:16 I suppose there's no reason not to install all of them Jun 19 05:12:27 shit... just got a bunch of fork errors Jun 19 05:12:32 doh Jun 19 05:12:33 I hope I did'nt just brick my phone Jun 19 05:12:47 I doubt it Jun 19 05:13:08 to brick it you would have to fuck over your bootloader Jun 19 05:17:51 any idea what "batget" process is? Jun 19 05:17:59 also, can you tell me how to set up a swap file? Jun 19 05:18:20 nvm... I'm going to reboot and pray it is still alive. I need to go to bed Jun 19 05:18:25 I'll come back tomorrow night Jun 19 05:18:33 thanks for your help though Jun 19 05:19:47 batget grabs the battery status if I remember right Jun 19 05:31:55 any workaround for navit freezing opkg upgrade? Jun 19 05:32:13 besides remove / reinstall? Jun 19 05:55:08 mickey|zzZZzz, Hi Jun 19 08:21:26 openmoko: 03alvieboy * r5142 10/trunk/gta02-core/ (components/gta02_power.lib gta02-core.pro): Add GTA02 power Jun 19 08:48:23 why does pcmanfm keep eating cpu >_> Jun 19 08:48:35 leila: strace it ;) Jun 19 08:49:23 its a filemanager, that I know Jun 19 08:50:59 I'll let it run for a while .. openmoko needs patience Jun 19 08:52:30 leila: it looks like you think that my advice to strace was a joke. Jun 19 08:54:10 PaulF|bipless, its more like I do not know how to Jun 19 09:09:23 there managed to install the tool .. now to kill the program and run it again Jun 19 09:09:32 leila: Jun 19 09:09:33 no Jun 19 09:09:53 leila: You don't need to kill it, that's one of the best things about strace. Jun 19 09:09:58 leila: just specify the pid. Jun 19 09:10:48 ah ok Jun 19 09:11:13 that was not in the piece I read Jun 19 09:12:38 PaulF|bipless, and how does one do that when the program keeps starting ;) Jun 19 09:12:57 at least its pid keeps changing in top Jun 19 09:17:22 hmm looks like restarting x worked ... disabled matchbox as well which I started in conjunction with lxde before Jun 19 09:40:23 the gps module realy needs an antenna to function ? Jun 19 09:41:03 umm, yes, however, the internal one should suffice (after the software workarounds, anyway) Jun 19 09:41:15 (which should be quite standard nowadays) Jun 19 09:41:31 i only got a lock on gta01 once, when i had the phone outside for 45min Jun 19 09:41:44 but that was last year Jun 19 09:42:09 gta01 shouldn't have had big problems with that though afaik Jun 19 09:42:09 mickey|zzZZzz ? Jun 19 09:42:57 do you still have to install gllin manually, or is there an opkg package? Jun 19 09:43:19 iirc there's an opkg Jun 19 09:43:32 mjr, what work-arounds (I am using a gta02, running debian) Jun 19 09:43:53 leila, presumably ones you already should have, they're quite old Jun 19 09:47:55 leila: moreover modern hardware revisions are supposed to work even without those workarounds (and somebody should finally check that because probably not every unit requires slowing down SD access by the factor of 8 for all the time GPS is powered!) Jun 19 09:50:10 PaulFert`, at the moment it is not finding any sats (using zhone to check that) Jun 19 09:50:26 I shall leave the phone next to the window for a while Jun 19 09:50:28 leila: i bet you use gps improperly. Jun 19 09:51:04 PaulFert`, I do not even know how to use it all at the moment Jun 19 09:51:32 leila: you're supposed to get the first fix outside after waiting for as much as 15 minutes (less if you're lucky). Jun 19 09:52:11 leila: it can work near the window but do it really near the window then, ensuring that nothing constraints GPS ant. Jun 19 09:52:48 should not be a prob since wifi is working :) Jun 19 09:53:04 in the mean time I shall install tangogps Jun 19 09:58:19 PaulFert`, getting code and carrier locks now Jun 19 09:59:20 leila: i told ya Jun 19 09:59:22 leila: ;) Jun 19 10:19:49 leila: you might also want to give omgps a try: http://www.google.fi/url?sa=t&source=web&ct=res&cd=1&url=http%3A%2F%2Fcode.google.com%2Fp%2Fomgps%2F&ei=OGY7SuD2N5bMjAff-aAP&usg=AFQjCNHn4FUefeVWQMJEoJnXdGVyo-yrpQ&sig2=gLyV7uQJ2zaBt0WpXlz8Iw Jun 19 10:19:53 oops, sorry for the url.. Jun 19 10:19:59 http://code.google.com/p/omgps/ Jun 19 10:21:42 PaulFert`: "not every unit requires slowing down SD access by the factor of 8 for all the time GPS is powered" so this is what the SW fix is. Hmm, too bad.. I can see why sometimes using up to 3 GPS apps (2 reading map tiles from uSD and two-three writing there) can kill FR.. Jun 19 10:22:13 hmh, I didn't think/recall it being that bad? Jun 19 10:22:40 That sounds very bad to me. Anyone know what the SW fix actually did? Jun 19 10:23:10 I thought it was mostly not clocking the sd when not accessing it (which is only sensible) and tuning the clock signal's shape a bit if the card can take it Jun 19 10:23:23 yeah, I'm questioning the information, not whether the information sounds bad Jun 19 10:23:48 not strongly questioning, mind you; I'm not in a position to do that Jun 19 10:23:58 I just want clarification that he knows what he's talking about Jun 19 10:24:39 rhkfin: first is what i mentioned Jun 19 10:24:52 rhkfin: second is that it turns off clock completely when SD is not used. Jun 19 10:25:04 rhkfin: third is that it lowers drive strength Jun 19 10:25:34 okay then, clarification accepted Jun 19 10:25:51 the first really practically necessary, then? Jun 19 10:25:57 PaulFert`: first SW fix? So it's not used any more, and has been replaced by the clock thing? Jun 19 10:25:59 mjr: I've read the code that slows down by a factor of 8 (by default, configurable by kernel parameter) several times. Probably i'm wrong, the code is there, you can read it. Jun 19 10:26:32 lindi-: do you know the implemantion of the SD/GPS SW-fix Jun 19 10:26:40 mjr: (not intending to sound too harsh, just really. I'm not that very sure that i can understand everything i see, if you want you can read it yourself) Jun 19 10:26:53 openmoko: 03werner * r5143 10/trunk/gta02-core/ (8 files in 3 dirs): Jun 19 10:26:53 openmoko: Added memory.sch by Luke Duncan Jun 19 10:26:53 openmoko: (Changed to use gta02_power.lib) Jun 19 10:26:53 openmoko: Added SDRAM_1V8 to gta02_power.lib Jun 19 10:26:53 openmoko: Updated AUTHORS. Jun 19 10:26:57 PaulFert`, yeah, no worries on that Jun 19 10:26:58 rhkfin: no, all three are used at the same itme. Jun 19 10:27:15 PaulFert`: oh, ok.. Jun 19 10:27:18 rhkfin: and nobody knows if slowing down is really necessary on hardware-fixed units. Jun 19 10:27:40 PaulFert`: ok, interesting.. Someone should have a look at this.. Jun 19 10:29:43 rhkfin: looks like nobody knows. mwester and others were complaining about that for half a year approx. Jun 19 10:30:41 PaulFert`: ok. Too bad, that'd benefit many if the speed upgrade would be possible.. Jun 19 10:30:53 rhkfin: why don't you just try it? Jun 19 10:31:18 PaulFert`: not equipped with coding skills Jun 19 10:31:29 rhkfin: change that kernel parameter, stresstest SD card and try to get a fix. No coding skills required. Jun 19 10:31:57 It's raining outside :) Jun 19 10:32:00 :P Jun 19 10:32:07 yes, that's my excuse as well Jun 19 10:32:42 rhkfin: i only read andy's commit message "Tests on access to SD Card with Glamo drive level "0" show that it reduces SD_CLK energy at 1.5GHz by 24dBm compared to drive level 3. This puts it only 6dB above the background noise floor compared to 30dB and should make a solution for GPS trouble with SD Card in." Jun 19 10:33:02 rhkfin: 2008 Nov 19 Jun 19 10:33:16 lindi-: ok, thanks! Jun 19 10:33:31 lindi-: no, we're talking about other parameter here. Jun 19 10:34:27 lindi-: sd_slow_ratio Jun 19 10:34:49 lindi-: cb559a9ddbd67883ec2e328ed69f9ad68768b4de Jun 19 10:35:12 rhkfin: "you can also change it at runtime by echo 8 > /sys/module/glamo_mci/parameters/sd_slow_ratio" Jun 19 10:35:19 hi. I have started tangogps. but the position of my current position is 5,000km away from my real position. how can I fix it? Jun 19 10:35:37 rhaeder: just wait Jun 19 10:35:38 PaulFert`, right. Well, at least it's easily tunable and testable for whoever bothers... Jun 19 10:35:42 rhaeder: probably you need to wait more Jun 19 10:35:51 mjr: exactly and that was obvious Jun 19 10:35:52 rhaeder: it takes a while (up to 15mins) to get the fix = see some satllites Jun 19 10:35:53 okay. :) Jun 19 10:36:07 rhkfin: how many sats do you see with xgps? Jun 19 10:36:14 rhaeder: and make sure you're outside, it's ~impossible to get the fix inside Jun 19 10:36:21 mjr: (to the one who can use git blame ;) ) Jun 19 10:36:23 lindi-: now, insed? Jun 19 10:36:26 inside Jun 19 10:36:28 oh, ok. I'm inside Jun 19 10:36:31 :( Jun 19 10:36:42 rhkfin: hmm, meant to ask that from rhaeder Jun 19 10:36:45 rhaeder: it's actually possible if you're very-very near the window. Jun 19 10:37:07 lindi-: tangogps shows it too. rhaeder what are te x/y/z numbers in the bottom bar of tangogps? Jun 19 10:37:12 rhaeder: and there're no other obstacles like big houses or whatever. Jun 19 10:37:28 ah, that was you where talking some lines above? Jun 19 10:37:50 openmoko: 03werner * r5144 10/trunk/gta02-core/memory.sch: Missed the other SDRAM_1V8. Jun 19 10:38:15 is it in the down right corner? Jun 19 10:38:25 rhkfin: ^ Jun 19 10:38:42 that is 12/0/0.0 here Jun 19 10:38:47 PaulFert`, I have the bonus to be on 4th floor near a huge window ;) Jun 19 10:39:17 leila: me, too. ;) Jun 19 10:39:27 four bigger windows Jun 19 10:40:07 rhaeder: it measn that it knows the position of 12 satellites (maybe from previous fix, I suppose you use SHR?) but sees none (the first 0). Jun 19 10:40:39 the last no (0 as well) is a relative precision (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dilution_of_precision_(GPS)) Jun 19 10:40:44 * PaulFert` is sitting in a room with ceiling 5 meters over him. It's only about 3 meters to the lower side of the window. Jun 19 10:41:29 rhkfin: I have paroli here, I do an >export DISPLAY=":0.0"< to launch X programs from SSH login :) Jun 19 10:44:11 rhaeder: ok, great! You're using OM2009? It also is able to remember the satellite positions. Jun 19 10:44:37 yes, I do Jun 19 10:44:44 I try to upgrade now Jun 19 10:44:57 I hope our sysadmin is not showing up :/ Jun 19 10:47:36 opkg update && opkg upgrade Jun 19 10:47:37 ;) Jun 19 10:48:15 oh, tons of packages has been updated since my last upgrade. that was about 3 weeks ago Jun 19 10:49:11 rhaeder: oh.. yes.. testing5 has been released. Jun 19 10:49:35 rhaeder: you need to remove the /home/root/.e folder to make the new OM2009 (&paroli) run properly. Jun 19 10:50:44 hmm the ./install.sh all was to alluring to try om2009 ;) Jun 19 10:50:45 ok, thx Jun 19 10:50:55 and no settings will be lost? Jun 19 10:54:11 rhaeder: well the .e settings will be lost yes (what that includes.. shouldn't be much) Jun 19 10:54:28 what I have also discovered is that if you play songs (MP3/OGG) with sterling it plays only the first 5 seconds at most and then silent Jun 19 10:54:39 okay Jun 19 10:55:23 openmoko: 03werner * r5145 10/trunk/gta02-core/ (5 files in 2 dirs): Jun 19 10:55:23 openmoko: Definition of SDRAM_1V8 was called IO_3V3. Oops. Jun 19 10:55:23 openmoko: Added powers to expanded view and reviewed them. Jun 19 10:55:29 speaking of sound, does mplayer work on the openmoko ? Jun 19 10:55:36 leila: yes Jun 19 10:55:43 nice Jun 19 10:56:26 leila: haven't tried it yet Jun 19 10:56:54 while the song was playing I started "top" and saw that there are other processes consuming the CPU Jun 19 10:57:07 when I reniced them to 19 it plays perfectly Jun 19 10:59:31 leila: I don't know how easy it is but some are using it all the time Jun 19 11:00:13 installing it now ;) Jun 19 11:01:06 leila: don't forget that FR lacks FPU so you need to force using libmad to play mp3's and libvorbisi (tremor) for oggs. Jun 19 11:01:08 what about porting a module player to OM2009? I like listening to MOD/XM/S3M/IT files :) Jun 19 11:03:17 or other question: is there a module player available? Jun 19 11:03:37 oh, it is no more starting :( Jun 19 11:04:28 I reboot it :) Jun 19 11:07:22 the enlightenment splash screen shows up and then it turns black and crashed Jun 19 11:07:43 "paroli stopped running unexpectedly" :( Jun 19 11:08:11 exit code 1 Jun 19 11:08:29 rhaeder: was the previous version testing4 or some old unstable? Jun 19 11:08:45 I dunno, 3 weeks ago Jun 19 11:09:04 the update was after my holiday, so about 25th May Jun 19 11:09:47 ok.. not sure if the upgrade is supposed to work flawless for old images.. Jun 19 11:10:12 run update & upgrade again to see everything installs ok Jun 19 11:10:20 then restart & try again Jun 19 11:10:33 and see /etc/opkg files if you use testing or unstable repositories Jun 19 11:11:02 I installed paroli paroli-autostart paroli-elementary paroli-sounds paroli-theme Jun 19 11:11:16 Downloading http://downloads.openmoko.org/repository/testing/all/Packages.gz Jun 19 11:11:21 is testing :) Jun 19 11:11:26 testing, ok.. Jun 19 11:11:47 did you run opkg update; opkg upgrade? Jun 19 11:11:50 it says "Package paroli (0.2.1+gitr97+b5d512647a63068aa4b7332f5fb15bf0c7a68b6f-r24) installed in root is up to date." Jun 19 11:11:54 yes Jun 19 11:12:23 ok.. hmm.. too bad.. I have no further ideas.. It might be easiest to reflash the latest testing Jun 19 11:12:46 then I need to backup my data first Jun 19 11:12:55 like messages, phone book and so on Jun 19 11:13:57 backing up /home/root does it Jun 19 11:14:28 ok Jun 19 11:14:43 rhaeder: if you create /media/card/bind-home dir, it'll be used as your home dir = you can flash as many times as you want without losing your settings, phone books etc. Jun 19 11:15:13 rhaeder: just to make sure you know, there've been some reports where Paroli lost the contacts saved in the phone -> making backups is always a good idea.. Jun 19 11:15:16 * Failed to download http://downloads.openmoko.org/repository/testing/armv4/Packages.gz, error 404 Jun 19 11:15:24 I got only this Jun 19 11:15:59 I know, backups are life-savers ;) Jun 19 11:16:44 ok, I try the flash Jun 19 11:17:22 what about ~/.dbus and such? Jun 19 11:17:41 rhaeder: that error is ok, there's no such feed existing -> just ignore it. Jun 19 11:17:58 rhaeder: what about it? Jun 19 11:18:24 On upgrade to testing5, AFAIK, only the ~/.e needs to be removed Jun 19 11:22:46 PaulFert`, seems that apt-get install mplayer works out of the box with my mpd server (ogg stream) Jun 19 11:23:13 tho.. it barely manages to run it in conjunction with zhone Jun 19 11:26:00 leila: pay attention to not use FP-using decoding library. Jun 19 11:26:15 rhkfin: where is the download page located? I cannot find it Jun 19 11:27:02 ok, found it Jun 19 11:27:25 leila: i use tremor Jun 19 11:27:39 leila: about 15% cpu usage to play 44100 Hz stereo ogg Jun 19 11:29:57 lindi-: with mplayer? Jun 19 11:30:05 one more question: should I use u-boot or qi? Jun 19 11:30:13 PaulFert`: cant see any change in current draw on the kernel you compiled Jun 19 11:30:15 PaulFert`: nope, with the sample player Jun 19 11:30:17 I have always used u-boot before because it is the default Jun 19 11:30:32 rhaeder: rhaeder I have qi, some say it's faster. Jun 19 11:30:33 rhaeder: depends on who you ask :) Jun 19 11:30:43 Psi_: ok. can you measure voltages on SD card holder pins in suspend? Jun 19 11:30:49 ok, thanks :) Jun 19 11:30:57 i guess so Jun 19 11:31:10 rhaeder: that way i think you should still be using vista on your laptop :P Jun 19 11:31:10 openmoko: 03alvieboy * r5146 10/trunk/gta02-core/components/gta02_power.lib: Add more power symbols Jun 19 11:31:27 lindi-, I shall try to get that installed Jun 19 11:31:49 openmoko: 03alvieboy * r5147 10/trunk/gta02-core/pmu.sch: PMU (work in progress) Jun 19 11:31:50 would have to remote sdcard to get at them though Jun 19 11:31:53 remote=remove Jun 19 11:32:05 might not be too good for sdcard Jun 19 11:32:09 if it is powered Jun 19 11:32:23 leila: iki.fi/lindi/openmoko/ivorbisfile_example.c Jun 19 11:32:29 aarrrhhh Jun 19 11:32:33 Psi_: then don't install it at all :) Jun 19 11:32:54 that might trigger code to not power it up Jun 19 11:34:16 something else ive noticed, i have the scope displaying current now instead of the dmm, theres lots of spikes during suspend Jun 19 11:34:22 Psi_: true. OTOH i don't think it can cause much harm to pull it off even when it's powered. Jun 19 11:34:32 Psi_: even with GSM off? Jun 19 11:34:41 na, this is with it on Jun 19 11:34:46 dfu-util -a rootfs -R -D fso-paroli-image-om-gta02.jffs2 Jun 19 11:34:58 results in: No such Alternate Setting: "rootfs" Jun 19 11:35:00 :( Jun 19 11:35:32 you will get lots of spikes with it on Jun 19 11:35:39 Psi_: no wonder then Jun 19 11:35:45 as the GSM module recieves stuff, and talks to the tower Jun 19 11:35:58 yeah, its just they are quite powerful Jun 19 11:36:00 hmm another issue with playing sound, it is not integrated with using the gsm function >_> Jun 19 11:36:02 150mA Jun 19 11:36:04 every second Jun 19 11:36:28 correction, every 3 seconds Jun 19 11:37:27 heee? Jun 19 11:37:31 now it is working... strange Jun 19 11:37:47 Psi_: yeah sounds about right Jun 19 11:37:49 dfu-util -a rootfs -R -D fso-paroli-image-om-gta02.jffs2 <-- this is now working Jun 19 11:37:49 Psi_: turn it off for the moment - tthat's a GSM firmware thing Jun 19 11:37:51 strange Jun 19 11:38:16 ah, so there may be more gsm firmware updates to come that low power usage? Jun 19 11:38:23 leila: sad but true. Probably Intone has something to offer, at least i think i remember discussions on the ML. Jun 19 11:38:39 Psi_: low power usage in suspend? Jun 19 11:38:42 Psi_: it's average current that matters Jun 19 11:38:59 ya Jun 19 11:39:01 Psi_: not peak current - 150mA for 50ms/3s or so isn't that bad Jun 19 11:39:26 SpeedEvil: :) i'll let you be "Captain Obvious" today ;) Jun 19 11:39:43 yeah, 50ms is about right Jun 19 11:40:03 what's the basse current you're seeing? Jun 19 11:40:15 52mA (gsm on) Jun 19 11:40:15 what's the quick/easy way to cross-compile and package existing software? Jun 19 11:40:26 from memory it was 44mA with it off Jun 19 11:40:33 I think my phone needs to become a handheld oscilliscope :) Jun 19 11:40:40 Psi_: also if deep sleep is enabled, it can reduce power consumption considerably. Unfortunately, the 0805 cap that needs replacing is glued very hard to the pcb on gta01. Jun 19 11:41:04 ndnihil: google xoscope hardware - and connect to the mic port Jun 19 11:41:06 Psi_: but you can solder another one in parallel, there's enough place for that. See Dima Kogan's rework. Jun 19 11:41:20 I plan on using xoscope, but via USB Jun 19 11:41:33 just wondering what the quick way to compile and package it would be Jun 19 11:41:46 PaulFert`: writing this stuff down on a wiki page would be good Jun 19 11:41:58 I've done some cross-compiling for it, but nothing that used ./configure Jun 19 11:42:02 in case you're abducted by aliens - or sleeping. :) Jun 19 11:42:17 I figure someone has to have written a wrapper for it Jun 19 11:42:23 but google shows me no love Jun 19 11:43:01 where do i find Dima Kogan's rework? Jun 19 11:43:12 SpeedEvil: i thought all hackers capable of hardware reworks are reading the hardware ML. Jun 19 11:43:21 Psi_: hardware ML. Sorry, gtg. Jun 19 11:43:29 ok Jun 19 11:43:30 thx Jun 19 11:43:50 :) Jun 19 11:45:09 Psi_: i think i'm talking about this one: http://markmail.org/message/auw56ezsg5ws3mqs Jun 19 11:45:30 oh sweet, angstrom already has xoscope packaged Jun 19 11:46:46 looks to be more about recamping than deepsleep Jun 19 11:47:14 * SpeedEvil wonders if a accellerometer driven xoscope is the epitomie of FR software. Jun 19 11:47:40 what would you use the accels for? Jun 19 11:47:48 just measure them via xoscope? Jun 19 11:48:09 Psi_: deepsleep provokes recamping Jun 19 11:48:35 Psi_: disabling deepsleep stops recamping but average current is higher. Jun 19 11:48:49 ah Jun 19 11:49:07 * SpeedEvil looks for his USB lead with cut vcc Jun 19 11:50:14 Aha! Jun 19 11:51:50 booting up with out sd or sim for voltage testing on sdcardpins atm Jun 19 11:52:40 hm.. i always forget that, os is on sdcard, really need to flash new image to nand Jun 19 11:53:39 bit late now, better goto bed. will have another look at it tomorrow probably Jun 19 11:53:40 nite Jun 19 11:55:56 flash was aborted and screen turns off but dfu-util saiys that it has finished Jun 19 11:55:59 hmmm Jun 19 11:56:21 Psi_: thanks in advance :) Jun 19 11:58:47 np Jun 19 12:00:20 * SpeedEvil tries to remember where he put his .1R resistors Jun 19 12:01:44 any alternatives to zhone .. shr and om I presume Jun 19 12:02:11 * rhaeder wonders why the flash (rootfs) interrupted? or why the kernel is not booting :( Jun 19 12:02:20 http://www.syscompdesign.com/circuitgear.htm Jun 19 12:02:28 about the same size as the FR Jun 19 12:02:45 I was going to make one, but that looks nicer than what I'd end up making, and fairly cheap Jun 19 12:03:33 ndnihil: you've also seen the 49 digital scope? Jun 19 12:03:35 $49 Jun 19 12:03:39 er Jun 19 12:03:40 no Jun 19 12:03:43 link/name? Jun 19 12:03:49 google! Jun 19 12:03:51 I've got a handheld already Jun 19 12:03:53 $49 digital scope Jun 19 12:03:56 but it wasn't that cheap Jun 19 12:04:02 It's not a great scope Jun 19 12:04:48 http://www.seeedstudio.com/depot/digital-storage-oscilloscope-with-panels-p-167.html Jun 19 12:04:51 that thing? Jun 19 12:05:25 hmmm, all md5sums are matching Jun 19 12:05:42 I flush the kernel after I flush the rootfs, maybe some temporary bug Jun 19 12:05:50 or weak USB power Jun 19 12:06:13 it is a low-cost board I use here on training anyway Jun 19 12:07:20 yes Jun 19 12:12:52 ahhh, booting again :D Jun 19 12:16:44 hmmm, all other settings and package installations are now lost Jun 19 12:16:52 and the screen is still black Jun 19 12:17:19 aahh, that took long Jun 19 12:17:34 rhaeder: onli installed packages are lost, not settings Jun 19 12:17:40 rhaeder: yes, boot is slow. Patience... Jun 19 12:17:45 :) Jun 19 12:17:58 and wait until Paroli's done loading, don't play with the phone before that.. Jun 19 12:18:04 I know it is slow. but it took longer than before Jun 19 12:18:12 k Jun 19 12:18:16 And anyway you might want to reboot again: the first run often has some weird things.. Jun 19 12:18:26 the first boot is slower than others Jun 19 12:19:07 ohhh. paroli is showing up :) Jun 19 12:19:47 I upload now my root directory Jun 19 12:19:58 I mean /home/root ;) Jun 19 12:20:59 seems to work Jun 19 12:27:35 it is again suspending and the network connection over USB cable is lost Jun 19 12:27:51 I had "fixed" and worked-around it but cannot recall it how Jun 19 12:28:14 now I need to keep my phone busy Jun 19 12:31:44 how can I switch off that suspend thing? Jun 19 12:37:40 * SpeedEvil uses 3 meters to check his PSU is set to 4.1V Jun 19 13:41:41 * SpeedEvil fails to get neo1973 bootingg properly on PSU. /me needs to redo shunt. Jun 19 14:06:38 Hmm.. rheader left already .. Jun 19 14:54:38 SpeedEvil: what's the matter? Jun 19 15:03:11 PaulFert`: Psi_: please use pipermail to quote! http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/hardware/2009-May/001193.html Jun 19 15:08:58 SpeedEvil: I really wonder what you're doing. Shunt? o.O Jun 19 15:12:27 PSU set to 4.2V, with current shunt with scope attached. I however couldn't find my container of low-ohm resistors, nd it diddn't like the 1R series - connected to GTA01 Jun 19 15:13:38 (I'd like to be able to measure it with GSM on - which means it's got to take what - 1.3A surges - and that takes it to 3V with 1R) Jun 19 15:29:47 SpeedEvil: gsm VDD source impedance supposed to be milli-Ohm range anyway Jun 19 15:30:16 I know Jun 19 15:30:37 But in reality, with an end-of-life battery it's not Jun 19 15:31:37 SpeedEvil: a decen PSU has a shunt *prior* to voltage feedback, so you can check current with virtually 0R source impedance Jun 19 15:32:27 I don't have one. It's all integrated in a box. Jun 19 15:32:32 So external is easier. Jun 19 15:32:47 And .1R is better than an end-off-life battery Jun 19 15:33:25 hmm, 0R1 seems close to the edge Jun 19 15:33:33 Clooooooooooose to the edge! Jun 19 15:34:46 A end-of-life 1200mAh cell will _not_ have an impedence of 0.1R (after 500 cycles and a couple of years) Jun 19 15:34:50 SpeedEvil: use a hall-sensor! ;-D Jun 19 15:35:16 I do have some GMR chips somewhere Jun 19 15:35:40 cool, exactly right component for this Jun 19 15:36:33 0.1R is lots easier, and better than old battery, so... Jun 19 15:37:05 Has anyone deployed Debian on FreeRunner ? Jun 19 15:38:27 SpeedEvil: in TPE lab, their bat-dummies had 3 x red + 3 x black 1.5mm^2 wires twisted. Figure that Jun 19 15:39:26 DocScrutinizer: I'm not saying it doesn't make it better to pass tests with a 1mR battery - just that in nature, in reality - 100mR or much greater will be seen. Jun 19 15:39:58 actually not that much greater Jun 19 15:41:01 SpeedEvil: plus all your other parasitary series-R are summung up on top of shunt Jun 19 15:41:10 I know Jun 19 15:42:11 * SpeedEvil can't find figures he scrawled down for impedence of old nokia bat Jun 19 15:43:08 I tried to make a webcam working in my newly purchaed FreeRunner which is running Debian ( kernel 2.6.28). It appear there is only basic modules provided by Debian for FreeRunner. Jun 19 15:43:18 SpeedEvil: let me put it this way: gsm needs >=3V5, bat is supposed to be rather charged at 3V6, and spikes are >>1A Jun 19 15:43:50 Any help for this ? Jun 19 15:49:18 SpeedEvil: also calypso datasheets mentions a max ripple voltage not to be exceeded, irrespectably of VDD voltage drop minimum Jun 19 15:49:36 Well - as a datapoint - the spikes at the battery terminals of a err 12 month old GTA01 battery are 100mV Jun 19 15:49:38 SpeedEvil: just saying Jun 19 15:49:47 on a call - spiking down Jun 19 15:50:31 yup, seems about right Jun 19 15:50:39 err, correct Jun 19 15:50:46 so what - on the order of 100mR Jun 19 15:50:54 yup Jun 19 15:51:02 what I told Jun 19 15:51:17 hmm, 0R1 seems close to the edge Jun 19 15:51:37 Jun 19 15:51:42 Well - yes - 'source impedence should be in the mR range' Jun 19 15:52:18 And a fresh battery may just about make a few tens. IIRC. Jun 19 15:52:19 hmm , around <50 mR Jun 19 15:53:17 impedance shouldn'r rise a lot on aging Jun 19 15:53:38 It does Jun 19 15:53:39 lots Jun 19 15:54:03 that's actually the considered-dead criterion for a bat Jun 19 15:54:41 http://www.fuelcon.com/cms/impedanz-fuer-batterie.html?L=1 Jun 19 15:55:41 usual failure symptom is you can't register anymore, despite good coverage Jun 19 15:55:59 But if users are quite happy to use a bat with 1/2 the talk-time, as it doesn't matter to them - you will see resistances of >>100mR Jun 19 15:56:26 Which may not matter, if the testing bodies do not require testing with aging batteries. Jun 19 15:56:29 plus you see above mentioned problems Jun 19 15:58:23 also I think impedance increase and capacity degradation are two distinct somewhat unrelated symptoms of bat aging Jun 19 15:59:58 They pretty much go hand in hand. Jun 19 16:00:10 usually, yes Jun 19 16:00:39 They are caused - AIUI - by degradation of the electrodes due to cycles, and charge-state*time and temperature*time Jun 19 16:00:39 by mere incidence though (as we happen to treat bats correctly) Jun 19 16:01:08 Li-ion cells inherently degrade, you can't keep them charged at room temperature. Jun 19 16:01:27 I know ;-) Jun 19 16:01:31 see ticket Jun 19 16:02:09 Though I do have some cells in the freezer, for that reason. Jun 19 16:02:09 Linux h1470228.stratoserver.net 2.6.18-028stab060.8 #1 SMP Mon Feb 9 20:25:36 MSK 2009 i686 GNU/Linux Jun 19 16:02:23 overcurrent may increase Z though, without impact on C Jun 19 16:03:08 and mere aging (by time) may degrade C with few impact on Z Jun 19 16:03:56 standard usage pattern wear of bat both go hand in hand Jun 19 16:05:05 My experience differs - batteries - new ones - charged to 100% and stored - without going to below 3V - have drastically increased Z Jun 19 16:05:20 Laptop battery, in this case. Jun 19 16:07:05 bought 3, used one, kept one in backppack, , and kept one in freezer (the bats were cheap, and I diddn't end up using it mobile as much as I expected)- later after I broke the laptop - stripped cells for other projects Jun 19 16:07:13 well, I may have cloudy knowledge about details, but basically the statement it's a complex multi-parameter problem holds true Jun 19 16:07:49 yeah Jun 19 16:08:04 and probably depends on day of week, and phase of moon at battery plant too Jun 19 16:08:48 at least cell chemistry is a major topic Jun 19 16:09:05 major advances can make you billions. Jun 19 16:09:18 there are actually a few quite different types of LiIon out there Jun 19 16:09:20 For the clever person that manages to get a key patent for cheap car bat. Jun 19 16:11:25 look e.g at weird data of bupbat (well that one borked on most devices nevertheless ;-) Jun 19 16:12:11 Yay! /me found barrel of stepper motors that he'd misplaced. Jun 19 16:12:17 NO idea what alien cell chemistry they used for that Jun 19 16:12:39 hehe Jun 19 16:13:44 Also explicit failures like the assorted fires. :) Jun 19 16:14:46 err, not on FR yet? Jun 19 16:15:38 Not AFAIK. Jun 19 16:15:56 phoooo :-S Jun 19 16:50:16 finally,, software that keeps time and last for 2 days!!! Jun 19 16:50:49 20090617 Jun 19 16:51:32 good work guys Jun 19 16:52:53 the htc my neighbor has uses a smaller screen yet has a better keyboard. so whats up with that??/// Jun 19 17:00:13 You haven't coded it yet? Jun 19 17:49:23 freesmartphone.org: 03mickey 07cornucopia * r04dc6fa65312 10/misc-vapi/vapi/Makefile.am: misc-vapi: install libasound.vapi Jun 19 17:49:24 freesmartphone.org: 03mickey 07cornucopia * r2dcd723c0be9 10/libfsoframework/ (4 files in 2 dirs): fsoframework: create skeleton for sound system; requires alsa now Jun 19 18:03:27 JEAH Jun 19 18:03:36 I have the Answer of the Riddle Jun 19 18:04:10 the suspend mode was the Reason Jun 19 18:15:23 omg! no Manpages :P Jun 19 18:15:27 thats horrible! Jun 19 18:27:27 argh! no Manpage to the Opkg Jun 19 18:28:03 AHA! the Parameter -help is useful :D Jun 19 18:32:50 wow... the update of packages is fucking lame... Jun 19 18:33:05 and the signature Checkt Fails always Jun 19 18:33:09 opkg blows for the most part Jun 19 18:33:40 if you think of it as less of an aptitude, and more of a simple shell script around wget and tar, it gets more bearable Jun 19 18:37:40 ok, something is going wrong, Fail to download Jun 19 18:37:46 time to read the Wiki Jun 19 18:42:06 LOL its running Enlighenment 17 Jun 19 18:42:28 i think Fluxbox is the faster Option Jun 19 18:46:33 Using **pending_return in dbus_connection_send_with_reply_setup() without pending_setup is deprecated and strongly discouraged Jun 19 18:46:38 I got this with testing5 Jun 19 18:46:49 e.g. when I launch cellhunter.py Jun 19 18:48:53 rhaeder: it's because auf the new libdbus Jun 19 18:49:03 okay Jun 19 18:49:11 do I need to fill out a bugreport? Jun 19 18:49:14 had yesterday the same Jun 19 18:49:27 don't know Jun 19 18:49:44 it's only a warning Jun 19 18:51:08 I have a lot trouble with testing5 now Jun 19 18:51:45 before I could plugin the USB cable and the FR fires up, but now it shows a "snowy" picture from last buffer, I guess Jun 19 18:52:10 oh, it doesn't came up :( Jun 19 18:53:21 and plugging the USB cable in while the kernel boots - the INIT line wasn't there - crashes the FR :( Jun 19 18:53:47 and the X server is not the last one being started. you should change that Jun 19 19:00:33 another one: I plugged the USB cable in while FR is booted into paroli and it didn't detect it, that is is AC-powered now Jun 19 19:00:42 and yes, the suspend-bug is still there :( Jun 19 19:00:51 I think that needs to be configured in E Jun 19 19:02:00 how do I launch englightenment configuration? Jun 19 19:02:11 I did a export DISPLAY=":0.0" Jun 19 19:06:14 :( Jun 19 19:06:40 why looks the WM in the Wikis different to my System? Jun 19 19:10:39 pandoras_: because you've a newer version? Jun 19 19:12:28 Heinervdm: hm.. looks very empty, so different Jun 19 19:12:53 pandoras_: you've om2009-testing5? Jun 19 19:13:17 the pictures in the wiki are from 2008.9 Jun 19 19:13:19 2008.12 Jun 19 19:13:55 then it's should look like the picture in the wiki Jun 19 19:14:04 perhaps less programs Jun 19 19:14:05 its the look only a Different in the Style? Or is it a other System?/GUI/WM? Jun 19 19:14:51 different everything Jun 19 19:14:54 almost Jun 19 19:15:52 http://www.nopaste.org/p/a2b6BylHU Jun 19 19:15:56 is this known? Jun 19 19:15:58 i have seen, its still running under Enlightenment Jun 19 19:16:08 a similar output when I enable photos Jun 19 19:17:00 and how can I register my nickname? I don't like JohnDoe Jun 19 19:18:45 http://www.nopaste.org/p/a8Ewp9Jzhb Jun 19 19:18:48 another one Jun 19 19:18:54 the two lines with null Jun 19 19:30:04 20 hours flight from buenos aires to norway Jun 19 19:30:18 see you soon, with stable internet and low ping Jun 19 19:30:29 bye Jun 19 19:30:42 chau Jun 19 19:31:03 i hope the plane wont crash if i turn on the NEO.......... Jun 19 19:31:11 :D Jun 19 19:33:42 openmoko: 03rehar * r5148 10/trunk/gta02-core/components/r_us.lib: changed R_US to a more symetrical design Jun 19 19:37:03 openmoko: 03werner * r5149 10/trunk/gta02-core/components/ (gta02-core-expanded.lib gta02-core.lib k4m51323pe.lib): K4M51323PE was incorrectly defined as a power symbol. Jun 19 20:56:03 openmoko: 03werner * r5150 10/trunk/gta02-core/kicad-patches/ (fix-eeschema-libs.patch series): Fixed placement of command in the LIBS line of .sch files. Jun 19 20:59:47 is there a modplug/mikmod player? Jun 19 21:01:50 slow :( Jun 19 21:15:52 openmoko: 03werner * r5151 10/trunk/gta02-core/components/ (gta02-core-comp.pro gta02-core-comp.sch mkloe): Jun 19 21:15:52 openmoko: New "schematics" for component editing only, so that we can use only Jun 19 21:15:52 openmoko: the combined library for the main schematics. Jun 19 21:38:43 openmoko: 03werner * r5152 10/trunk/gta02-core/expanded/gta02-core-expanded.sch: Added text explaining the limited purpose of this file as well. Jun 19 21:50:54 openmoko: 03werner * r5153 10/trunk/gta02-core/gta02-core.pro: Switched to combined library. Jun 19 21:51:45 openmoko: 03werner * r5154 10/trunk/gta02-core/components/ (gta02-core-expanded.lib gta02-core.lib): Updated generated libs for R_US change. Jun 19 22:40:29 are there any alternate keyboards for shr that works when the screen is in landscape mode? Jun 19 22:40:59 -alternate Jun 19 23:23:14 nini all Jun 19 23:24:42 max_posedon, how do i quickly switch #chan on xchhat? Jun 19 23:25:52 alt-number? Jun 19 23:26:07 max_posedon, (no tabs :-/ ) Jun 19 23:26:28 SpeedEvil, let's see Jun 19 23:26:36 only used it once - forgot Jun 19 23:27:20 SpeedEvil, yau works. gracias Jun 19 23:29:35 now if only i could get rid if this bold header-bar of terminal-kbd... Jun 19 23:30:47 also xchats input area is too high Jun 19 23:34:06 * SpeedEvil wishes he could find his USB-SATA adaptor, to upgrade his 'new' laptop. Jun 19 23:36:02 hmm, nice inexpensive usefull gadget Jun 19 23:36:23 That's why I couldn't find it. Jun 19 23:36:38 EeePC? Jun 19 23:37:01 I was looking for a little plastic blob - and had plugged them all together into a hub to make a USB-RAID nightmare Jun 19 23:37:12 second hand x60s - at a good price. Jun 19 23:37:33 aah, ok Jun 19 23:38:49 same price as an eee1000, and _much_ niceer Jun 19 23:40:01 hehe, pub host had a 1000 here minurw ago Jun 19 23:40:19 minute even Jun 19 23:41:06 with windoof --- erks Jun 19 23:42:31 anyway cool pub nevertheless ;-) Jun 19 23:43:13 even when sound is mp3 from 1000 atm ;P Jun 19 23:46:44 SpeedEvil, shunt smoking? ;-) Jun 19 23:47:08 not got it working - been doing lots of gardening and yardwork today Jun 20 00:13:15 fsck, sorry. gprs lease expired Jun 20 00:19:46 anybody interested in case rework to have stylus bay? Jun 20 00:28:58 bat applet is kinky. on 33% i get a green bar like 2/3 Jun 20 00:30:36 :/ Jun 20 00:31:05 Hmm - surprising-to-me - backing up a USB harddrive to anohter - through the same USB hub - 20M/s Jun 20 00:31:27 also this light grey in lighter grey with white chars grey outline on white/grey is driving me nuts Jun 20 00:31:58 :) Jun 20 00:34:20 raster is weird somerimes. for his desktop shells he's using brightwhite on black 5pt. and bat applet is cloak to NASA image processing Jun 20 00:35:08 I use small fonts too Jun 20 00:35:41 On the theory that you can easily have multiple windows open, and swivel your eyes much faster than any WM Jun 20 00:35:46 i prefer laaaarge screens Jun 20 00:36:43 zoom in is faster ;-P Jun 20 00:37:36 anyway illume bat a nuisance Jun 20 00:38:41 all this idiot pastel and gray theming Jun 20 00:39:50 could save my money and get a b/w-lcd ;-) Jun 20 01:23:08 DocMobilizer: launch openttd and see more colors :) Jun 20 01:23:11 nice game Jun 20 01:23:21 but some sprites seems to be still missing Jun 20 01:27:35 anyway. is there a win32 driver for WinXP Ethernet-Over-USB? I mean, my friend doesn't have Linux but WinXP and I like to connect my phone to his computer Jun 20 01:30:39 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973_and_Windows#USB_Ethernet_emulation Jun 20 01:31:09 http://sam.curren.ws/index.cfm/2008/7/14/Using-the-Neo-FreeRunner-with-Windows-XPVista Jun 20 01:31:13 maybe those'll help Jun 20 01:31:14 hehe Jun 20 01:58:42 yau, no idea about openttd, but thanks Jun 20 02:01:56 wow, 57.000$ fee/recompensation per song downloaded via kazaa. I really consider to move to US and find a cat for my microwave Jun 20 02:02:29 is everybody nuts over there, or some kept a synapse to use? Jun 20 02:04:18 plain ridiculous Jun 20 02:36:00 what now? s/$/€j Jun 20 02:36:43 s/j/\// Jun 20 02:37:09 ~botsnack Jun 20 02:37:09 DocScrutinizer: thanks Jun 20 02:37:20 with poison Jun 20 02:40:11 ~lart cdbot2 Jun 20 02:40:11 * apt forces cdbot2 to use Outlook Express Jun 20 02:40:17 ~die Jun 20 02:40:17 * apt takes two shots to the head and crumples to the ground, lifeless. Jun 20 02:40:51 !lart apt Jun 20 02:40:51 * cdbot2 drops a truckload of VAXen on apt Jun 20 02:41:14 bitcrap Jun 20 02:54:11 ~recursion1 is !recursion2 Jun 20 02:54:11 okay, DocScrutinizer Jun 20 02:54:40 !recursion2 is ~recursion1 Jun 20 02:54:58 k Jun 20 02:55:15 ~forget recursion1 Jun 20 02:55:16 i forgot recursion1, DocScrutinizer Jun 20 02:55:57 yup those greedy bastardss Jun 20 02:56:29 lol, yes Jun 20 02:58:18 if I were this woman, I'd emigrate to Europe. Not without taking another hypoteque on my house in convertible currency with me though **** ENDING LOGGING AT Sat Jun 20 02:59:57 2009