**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Sun Aug 23 02:59:56 2009 Aug 23 03:58:26 hi all Aug 23 06:25:36 Hey! decided to bite down on my first NeoFrerunner cellphone... couple questions first... Aug 23 06:26:12 GSMbands... in the states is 900/something/something/something is what I want? Aug 23 06:28:40 and if I want T-Mobile this is what I want to get? http://www.t-mobile.com/shop/phones/Detail.aspx?class=prepaid&device=53299206-c069-429a-82fa-000007a2ac12 Aug 23 06:29:45 looks like this is GSM900 Aug 23 06:41:26 WalterN: Why not ask T-Mobile whether you should buy a GSM 850/1800/1900 or 900/1800/1900 FR? FR HW rev A7 is World (GSM 900/1800/1900) only, but SDG Systems still sells the US rev A6 (GSM 850/1800/1900) for about 100 USD less than the rev A7. Aug 23 06:43:56 brolin: 900/1800/1900 FR? Aug 23 06:44:18 (not sure what FR is.. ermm.. frequency range?) Aug 23 06:44:47 WalterN: FreeRunner. ;) Aug 23 06:45:46 so would T-Mobile be 850 or 900? Aug 23 06:46:43 I do not know, so I suggest asking them. Aug 23 06:47:10 bleh.. I wanna order it nao Aug 23 06:48:34 heh Aug 23 06:52:11 Both the US and World version should work because 850/900 is the secondary band. If you plan to use your FR outside North America, the World version is probably better, or you could order the rev A6 US version from SDG Systems and save about 100 USD, which you could use to buy a DBoard. Aug 23 06:59:33 brolin: from wikipedia on T-Mobile... "These carriers predominately provided service using the GSM 850 MHz band, and a dual band phone is required to use both the native and affiliate networks." Aug 23 07:00:30 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T-Mobile_USA Aug 23 07:08:43 SHR does not set the date and time automatically like my Nokia 6103b. I set the time manually, but I cannot set the date. (fail) Aug 23 07:20:07 http://www.engadgetmobile.com/2009/04/06/openmoko-freerunner-canceled-staff-slashed/ :( Aug 23 08:04:53 hmm... should I wait to get the NeoFrerunner until after GTA03 is released? Aug 23 08:05:21 WalterN: what are you waiting for? Aug 23 08:06:07 I'm concerned about the lack of 850GSM band Aug 23 08:06:25 WalterN: gta02 doesn't lack 850 Aug 23 08:06:32 WalterN: you just get "us" version Aug 23 08:06:35 is the 850 version sold out? Aug 23 08:06:37 version 7 does Aug 23 08:06:39 WalterN: gta03 will never be released. Aug 23 08:07:08 WalterN: a6 is almost the same as a7, why do you care? Can't you do the buzzfix yourself/find somebody to do that for you? Aug 23 08:07:27 erm, maybe Aug 23 08:07:29 heh Aug 23 08:07:33 I suck at soldering Aug 23 08:07:39 in general Aug 23 08:08:05 WalterN: the buzzfix is desoldering one 0402 resistor soldering another one there and soldering a huge 100uF capacitor nearby. Aug 23 08:08:26 WalterN: all conveniently located. But 0402 is small, yes... Aug 23 08:08:29 pics? Aug 23 08:08:50 I have some fine desoldering copper braid Aug 23 08:09:12 WalterN: official SOP: http://people.openmoko.org/joerg/GSM_EMI_noise/big-C_rework_SOP_rc2.pdf Aug 23 08:09:44 is the buzz that bad? Aug 23 08:10:10 WalterN: some people never had buzz issues Aug 23 08:10:27 WalterN: it depends on where you are. Some places expose the buzz better than others. Aug 23 08:10:43 WalterN: so no device is buzz-free it's just some places where it doesn't surface. Aug 23 08:11:13 but there is no buzz with bt handsfree Aug 23 08:11:19 hmm Aug 23 08:11:46 if I wait a bit will the 850band A7 be produced? Aug 23 08:12:05 WalterN: true, OTOH software doesn't currently support BT headsets in fully automatic and convenient way. Aug 23 08:12:10 WalterN: i really doubt that. Aug 23 08:13:50 :/ Aug 23 08:14:31 WalterN: is it that hard to change one 0402 resistor? Aug 23 08:14:41 it is quite hard Aug 23 08:14:54 at least compared to adding the capacitor Aug 23 08:15:28 lindi-: i'll soon have a chance to try that out: i still don't have any decent soldering tools at home and i'm getting a gta01 where i'd need to cut current paths by desoldering 0R's. Aug 23 08:16:30 lindi-: i think that a flat screwdriver-shaped iron would work well enough for that. Aug 23 08:18:09 never soldered surface mount stuff before... have other things which is rather hard for me.. heh Aug 23 08:19:10 WalterN: if you have at least some soldering experience, you should be ok to go. Just take some old pc board with small components and practice a little with that. Aug 23 08:20:38 hmm Aug 23 08:21:03 how well would the 900band work in USA in general? Aug 23 08:21:15 WalterN: 0402 is those small pieces ~1x0.5mm. Aug 23 08:21:18 900/1800/1900 Aug 23 08:21:50 WalterN: if you have good 1800 coverage, they work good. There're reports that 900 phones can work even with 850 signal but only when it's quite strong. Aug 23 08:22:13 WalterN: you better ask your cell operator about 1800/1900 coverage. Aug 23 08:23:11 thats in hertz, right? Aug 23 08:24:46 WalterN: MHz Aug 23 08:24:54 so 1.8/1.9gighz Aug 23 08:25:04 Yes Aug 23 08:25:09 ok Aug 23 08:26:32 maybe monday I will swing by radioshack and ask... if anybody in town knows they would Aug 23 08:27:36 PaulFertser: how long will battery last on standby (approx)? Aug 23 08:28:16 WalterN: depends on whether you have gsm on or not Aug 23 08:28:22 if there is such a thing as standby Aug 23 08:28:57 gsm on? I would want to be able to receive calls... Aug 23 08:30:02 WalterN: with deep sleep hardware fix it can last as long as 140 hours. Without it's about 70 hrs. IIRC Aug 23 08:30:12 WalterN: and no, A7 doesn't have that fix. Aug 23 08:30:47 WalterN: it's "easy", changing one 0805 capacitor. Aug 23 08:30:58 WalterN: it's about 11 mA to 21 mA Aug 23 08:31:00 for the deepsleep fix? Aug 23 08:31:52 WalterN: for #1024 Aug 23 08:32:37 1024 what? Aug 23 08:32:40 lindi-: 11mA? I think with deep sleep suspend is ~8mA Aug 23 08:32:49 WalterN: hehe, that's our beloved bug number Aug 23 08:33:06 WalterN: https://docs.openmoko.org/trac/ticket/1024 Aug 23 08:33:07 PaulFertser: without the fix Aug 23 08:33:21 PaulFertser: with gsm on and without fix for #1024 Aug 23 08:33:30 lindi-: ah, ok. Aug 23 08:48:38 WalterN: SDG Systems sells buzz-fixed rev A6 US FRs. That is what I have, but it took about 10 days to get my package and I had to pay 112 CAD in brokerage + customs fees because I live in Canada. Aug 23 09:01:08 brolin: linky? Aug 23 09:03:34 WalterN: http://sdgsystems.com/ Aug 23 09:05:43 brolin: all they have listed there is the A7 900band Aug 23 09:08:03 I am disappointed with my FR so far, though. I do not recommend buying a FR unless you like unresponsive GUIs, spending hours playing with configuring software just to make things usable, etc. :( Aug 23 09:09:12 I am posting to the community mailing list about my disappointing experience with my FR. Aug 23 09:11:16 arnt you using SHR? Aug 23 09:15:51 brolin: yeah, FR is a good toy for hackers, not useable out of the box for telephony. Aug 23 09:15:59 brolin: that's nothing new Aug 23 09:18:05 WalterN: I checked SDG Systems's Web store and see you are correct: I guess they have sold out of A6 FRs. My rev A6 US FR cost only 289 USD, 100 USD less than the rev A7. Aug 23 09:18:57 :( Aug 23 09:19:59 WalterN: Yes, I am now trying to use SHR because Om 2009 is a steaming POS, at least in my experience on my phone. Aug 23 09:20:38 brolin: what were you expecting from FR Aug 23 09:23:29 PaulFertser: Software that permanently saves my configuration changes I make in the GUI so I do not have to make the same changes every time I boot? SHR fails that with the Power settings. Every time I boot, the backlight brightness reverts to 100% and the screen blanks after about 10 seconds, which is *extremely* frustrating. Aug 23 09:24:06 brolin: that's expected Aug 23 09:24:37 brolin: the "power" settings concept is just incorrect, you might want to read FSO_resources wiki page to understand resources and policies etc. Aug 23 09:25:13 PaulFertser: I expect the changes I made in the Power settings to be saved permanently and applied every time I boot. (fail) Aug 23 09:25:20 brolin: backlight is controlled by oeventsd so you might want to tweak its config file, i can't see how a gui way can be useful to make rules for an engine. Aug 23 09:26:27 brolin: (power settings saved) that expectation seems to me unreasonable since it's contrary to the concept of FSO resources, and that concept is there for a reason. Aug 23 09:27:03 PaulFertser: Why does the Power settings GUI even exist if it does not permanently save its settings? Aug 23 09:27:26 brolin: for the testing purposes Aug 23 09:28:19 PaulFertser: Then it would be helpful if the Power settings GUI told me these changes will not be saved permanently instead of leaving me to discover that on my own. Aug 23 09:28:30 brolin: because it's not "its settings". "Power settings GUI" just changes policy of the resource, and that is not for production use according to FSO API. Aug 23 09:28:44 brolin: nice suggestion, i'll tell dos1 about that. Aug 23 09:29:41 (the same with brightness and screen blank) Aug 23 09:30:11 PaulFertser: Are end users expected to be familiar with the FSO API just to be able to use the SHR GUI? Aug 23 09:30:37 brolin: i think yes Aug 23 09:31:34 brolin: dos1 said yesterday that people who don't know how to use iptables are not target group of SHR. And if someone is able to understand "man iptables" i've no doubt he can understand an FSO_resources wikipage as well. Aug 23 09:32:07 brolin: freerunner is not targeted at "end-users" at all. Never was in fact. Aug 23 09:34:17 PaulFertser: so all SHR users are male? Aug 23 09:34:49 brolin: i doubt that; why's this unexpected question? Aug 23 09:35:51 PaulFertser: because you used "he" instead of "he or she". Aug 23 09:36:34 brolin: i'm sorry, i usually refer to "user" as "he", probably i'm wrong. Aug 23 09:36:54 * brolin does not agree with using male pronouns as sex/gender-neutral pronouns, even though he is male. Aug 23 09:36:59 brolin: i'm not native speaker, you know. Aug 23 09:38:34 brolin: btw, this topic actually bothers me for quite some time: why there're so few women in the free software community, especially among famous programmers / project leaders? Aug 23 09:40:24 PaulFertser: I know FR is not targeted at end users. By "end user", I meant someone, such as myself, who uses prebuilt images instead of building things from source and expects these prebuilt images to work without having to understand how the APIs they use work. :) Aug 23 09:41:46 brolin: well, i really doubt that is possible in a general case. If you read the page about resources you'll understand that this concept makes sense and that anyone who really wants to make best use of his/hers ;) device would need to understand that. Aug 23 09:44:42 brolin: as i see it, freerunner is not for "usage" per se, it's for tinkering with and that makes a huge difference. Aug 23 09:46:13 PaulFertser: because there are few female programmers to start with? Free Software users tend to be interested in programming. Why else would they care about proprietary/Free software? Aug 23 09:47:51 PaulFertser: I am a native English speaker, yet I keep forgetting what "per se" means. Aug 23 09:48:22 brolin: the percentage of female programmers graduating from universities is magnitudes higher than that in free software project Aug 23 09:48:34 brolin: i guess "per se" is latin so no wonder ;) Aug 23 09:50:09 PaulFertser: Yes, but many Latin things are common in English, such as AM/PM (yuck! I hate 12h time.), i.e., e.g., cf. Aug 23 09:53:35 PaulFertser: I also keep forgetting what magnitude means even though I have looked it up multiple times. Aug 23 09:54:00 brolin: 10 times if we use a base of ten. Aug 23 09:54:21 brolin: do you have some scientific background? Aug 23 09:58:34 PaulFertser: I have little formal scientific schooling, but what does that mean? "I have never let my schooling interfere with my education." is probably my favourite Mark Twain quote. :) Aug 23 09:59:52 brolin: :D Aug 23 10:01:42 PaulFertser: at least I tried the FR for myself and formed my own conclusion instead of relying on other people's opinions. Aug 23 10:03:03 "Opinions are like assholes: everyone has one and they stink." ;) Aug 23 10:03:26 brolin: i like that kind of attitude. Just don't forget that if you don't understand something it doesn't necessarily mean it's bad or wrong, please. Aug 23 10:06:12 PaulFertser: the only time I have even tried using my FR for telephony was with the Om 2008 image it came with. I do not even know if telephony works on my SHR installation. Aug 23 10:06:12 * PaulFertser should have used "order of magnitude" strictly speaking Aug 23 10:07:12 * brolin always forgets what "order of magnitude" means. Aug 23 10:07:17 brolin: i use my freerunner as my only cellphone since november. Aug 23 10:09:10 (not that i'm a heavy cell telephony user but still) Aug 23 10:11:45 deepsleep=6..13mA with avg 7mA, sleep2 is exactly double Aug 23 10:12:20 I use the non-telephony functions of my Nokia 6103b more than the telephony features. On many days, I do not make or receive any calls even though I have my Nokia 6103b on and with me. Aug 23 10:12:28 DocScrutinizer: and without gsm it's about 3 mA, right? Aug 23 10:12:29 plus a negligable ammount for system standby Aug 23 10:13:11 lindi-: that's about correct for the "negligable" ammount Aug 23 10:13:41 DocScrutinizer: current_now is always exactly 3000 for me after suspend Aug 23 10:14:19 lindi-: check current_standby (or similarly named) Aug 23 10:14:32 DocScrutinizer: i did not know there was such file Aug 23 10:14:34 lindi-: use my script to read ot Aug 23 10:14:37 DocScrutinizer: is this documented anywhere? ;) Aug 23 10:14:43 sure Aug 23 10:14:50 lindi-: the script is mentioned at Battery Q&A page Aug 23 10:15:07 in my script, and in associated document Aug 23 10:20:59 PaulFertser: Is there any point to finishing my e-mail to the community mailing list? I think there is because it will be a follow-up to my previous messages: it will confirm that my conclusion about the FR is the same as the people who recommended I continue using my Nokia when I asked if a FR is sufficient for me. :) Aug 23 10:21:35 DocScrutinizer: where's your script? Aug 23 10:22:16 12:14] lindi-: the script is mentioned at Battery Q&A page Aug 23 10:22:36 DocScrutinizer: yeah I was just struggling that wiki.openmoko.org search does not work with elinks Aug 23 10:23:00 DocScrutinizer: seems to be some iframe started with javascript? Aug 23 10:23:30 errr? Aug 23 10:23:34 brolin: that's up to you obviously. Just please don't make it sound like you're blaming the developers for anything, else it might be quite frustrating and demotivating. :) Aug 23 10:23:44 lindi-: yeah, that sucks Aug 23 10:23:46 try people.om.org/joerg/bat Aug 23 10:24:09 I guess I'm going to mirror the wiki too and provide search Aug 23 10:24:18 lindi-: i get frustrated every time i see i'm unable to use OM wiki search, the way it's done is just stupid. And nobody to fix it :( Aug 23 10:24:32 lindi-: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Battery_Questions_and_Answers Aug 23 10:24:54 lindi-: isn't it be better to get ahold of some admin priveleges for the wiki? Aug 23 10:25:07 lindi-: http://people.openmoko.org/joerg/battery/bq27k-detail Aug 23 10:25:18 whats the best app for editing OpenStreetMap while out & about? Aug 23 10:26:54 PaulFertser: i need the mirror for offline use anyway Aug 23 10:30:02 lindi-: I thought there was a mirroring project for local wiki on FR yet Aug 23 10:31:40 DocScrutinizer: i had one yes Aug 23 10:31:53 DocScrutinizer: but mvs is very fragile tool, it broke when something was changed in wiki.openmoko.org Aug 23 10:32:18 ooh :-( Aug 23 10:32:21 DocScrutinizer: see the very end of Aug 23 10:32:23 DocScrutinizer: see the very end of http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/User:Lindi Aug 23 10:32:58 DocScrutinizer: how does the battery know when the system is in standby? Aug 23 10:33:54 lindi-: if the current is <= 2* (preconfigured or previous) cur_standby Aug 23 10:34:25 ah Aug 23 10:43:01 dos1: ^ Aug 23 10:43:18 might be worth displaying in settings-power Aug 23 10:44:37 dos1: you could even calculate presumed standby time with this cur_standby and chrg_now Aug 23 11:12:36 PaulFertser: http://www.catb.org/~esr/writings/cups-horror.html Aug 23 11:21:24 brolin: hm, interesting Aug 23 11:21:38 brolin: in fact i was having problems setting up printing with cups recently. Aug 23 11:22:12 brolin: my problem was that it apperead that to use a printer shared by an AD member the root user on my machine should have a kerberos ticket. Aug 23 11:22:55 brolin: i've never tried configuring cups with some gui btw, i used localhost:631 web-interface which is what CUPS (and not some weird gnome/kde developers) provide. Aug 23 11:24:04 brolin: also in my opinion setting a networked printer is something to be done by a smart system administrator, not by an "Aunt Tillie", that's just reasonable assumption. Aug 23 11:25:15 brolin: i can't see why users are blaming GNU/Linux system for being unfriendly when in fact they're unfriendly to "endusers" just because any serious task requires some reasonable training. Either you train yourself to become a good administrator or you hire/ask one to help you. Aug 23 11:27:07 brolin: the way MS goes with solving "professional tools require professional skills" is making their tools non-professional. They usually work for the most common cases but it freaks out any experienced administrator, especially when he tries to do something "nonstandard" (read not what MS's programmers had in mind as the most common cases). Aug 23 11:37:05 PaulFertser: I have never used ActiveDirectory nor Kerberos. Aug 23 11:38:28 PaulFertser: I know about localhost:631 too, but how is someone who has never used CUPS before going to know about it? Aug 23 11:41:47 PaulFertser: Did you mean "he or she"? ;) Aug 23 11:43:49 freesmartphone.org: 03mickey 07cornucopia * ref66ce26b4f5 10/fsodeviced/src/plugins/kernel26_rtc/plugin.vala: fsodeviced: kernel26_rtc: add logging output for set and get methods Aug 23 11:43:49 freesmartphone.org: 03mickey 07cornucopia * re85a17c5e8b3 10/libfsoframework/fsoframework/object.vala: Aug 23 11:43:49 freesmartphone.org: libfsoframework: Vala objects created w/ Object.new() do NOT (I repeat _not_) Aug 23 11:43:50 freesmartphone.org: call any default constructor (like Foo()), but just the construct {} constructor. Aug 23 11:45:37 brolin: man cupsd probably? Aug 23 11:45:59 brolin: at least it's mentioned in all the cups manuals Aug 23 11:48:02 PaulFertser: "The thing to notice here is how far behind we have left Aunt Tillie. Rule 1 of writing software for nontechnical users is this: if they have to read documentation to use it you designed it wrong. The interface of the software should be all the documentation the user needs. You'd have lost the non-techie before the point in this troubleshooting sequence where a hacker like me even got fully engaged." Aug 23 11:48:23 brolin: my main point is "cups shouldn't be Aunt Tillie - friendly", and all system administration tasks shouldn't. Trying to go against this rule always leads to troubles. Aug 23 11:49:05 brolin: which basically says that the authors of config tools should be prescient - and know about all possible configurations. Aug 23 11:49:12 brolin: not reading documentation is just stupid, i can't see why anybody should design powerful software for retards (in a bad sense of that word). Aug 23 11:49:17 brolin: And if that's the case - they should just autoconfigure it. Aug 23 11:59:36 brolin: ([s]he) would you prefer me using "it" as an ultimate everything-neutral pronoun? ;) Aug 23 12:04:41 PaulFertser: You could, but "it" is usually used with objects. Humans are self-aware matter, though. You could be like Facebook and use "they" instead of "his or her" when the user's sex/gender is unknown. Aug 23 12:05:03 brolin: humans are objects too Aug 23 12:05:25 brolin: and dogs/cats/pigs/horses are self-aware too, i guess. Aug 23 12:06:33 we just think we are self-aware. you can not proof that kind of thing ;) Aug 23 12:06:58 brolin: "We are living in a material world, and I am a material girl"? ;) Aug 23 12:07:19 I mean PaulFertser, not brolin. :P Aug 23 12:07:57 talking to yourself, no problem! Aug 23 12:08:32 brolin: hm, is it supposed to prove "humans are not a subclass of objects"? Aug 23 12:08:44 The English language is dualistic. Aug 23 12:09:40 beh, OOM killed my browser Aug 23 12:09:43 (PC) Aug 23 12:09:56 Kero: One rational solution to that. Aug 23 12:10:04 * SpeedEvil hands out the pitchforks and torches. Aug 23 12:11:56 brolin: i almost believed you're citing George Harrison, not Madonna ;) Aug 23 12:12:25 PaulFertser: Humans are grammatical objects, but when I wrote ""it" is usually used with objects", I meant unconscious objects. And Yet Again, I am back to the problem of not knowing what (human) consciousness is, which is why I should continue reading Consciousness Explained by Daniel Dennet. Aug 23 12:13:06 brolin: what about children? Aug 23 12:13:54 It is rarely used referring to children (nicely) Aug 23 12:14:01 (in the UK at least) Aug 23 12:14:56 brolin: http://xkcd.com/610/ Aug 23 12:15:04 how can i do a cdebootstrap with sid instead of stable? Aug 23 12:15:14 Kero: "Cogito ergo sum", as Rene Descartes is quoted (I think it was him?)? Aug 23 12:15:15 i always get "E: Couldn't validate Release!" Aug 23 12:15:24 i think i need other keys? Aug 23 12:16:22 * brolin wonders if there is a version 2.718281828 of E(nlightenment). ;) Aug 23 12:16:49 blan: i thought install.sh uses sid and not stable Aug 23 12:17:01 PaulFertser, i use the manual way Aug 23 12:17:08 There is v1.666 of Doom, which uses IPX port 666. Aug 23 12:17:10 brolin: that just adds to the illusion :) Aug 23 12:17:18 PaulFertser, cdebootstrap-static --flavour=minimal ... stable /media/card ... Aug 23 12:17:27 blan: can you consult the script as a reference. Aug 23 12:18:14 SpeedEvil: (xkcd) yeah, this one is among my favourites :) Aug 23 12:18:22 (.)666(repeating) is 2/3, though, which means Satan is only 2/3 evil. ;) Aug 23 12:19:47 PaulFertser, okay i think a "--allow-unauthenticated" solve this problem Aug 23 12:19:48 Kero: I talk to myself IRL too. ;) Aug 23 12:20:11 * PaulFertser does that too Aug 23 12:21:58 PaulFertser: Is George Harrison a girl? ;) Aug 23 12:23:36 Is Michael Pilgermann in here? Aug 23 12:23:52 does anyone know when the next koolu release will be out? Aug 23 12:24:08 SpeedEvil: xkcd reminds me: I wanted to read the "tab explosion" xkcd comic. :) Aug 23 12:25:49 blergh Warning: The linux-fb GDK target is unmaintained Aug 23 12:25:57 spydon: Real Soon Now(TM)? Or "When it's ready", as 3D Realms (and Remedy?) say(s)? ;) Aug 23 12:26:30 no wonder ruby-gdk-pixbuf building chokes :( Aug 23 12:26:52 anyone know whether gdk linux fb is *supposed* to be used in SHR? Aug 23 12:26:56 brolin, awesome ;) Aug 23 12:28:25 uhm, there's also directfb as possible target. Aug 23 12:28:31 * Kero is confused now. Aug 23 12:30:48 not even sure whether SHR or OE is the source of the problem... Aug 23 12:37:53 SpeedEvil: I can definitely relate to that situation. :) Aug 23 12:38:16 SpeedEvil: I mean in http://xkcd.com/610/ Aug 23 12:40:48 SpeedEvil: I am usually too shy to talk to strangers IRL because I do not know what their interests and/or personalities are. The Internet is better for bringing people with common interests together, but worse in a way because it isolates us from face-to-face contact: we end up knowing more about people on other continents than our neighbours IRL. Aug 23 12:44:55 yeah. Aug 23 12:45:07 Anyway, I need to go to bed because it is almost 06:00 and I have already stayed up almost all night. (fail) That is meaningless, temporal bullshit, though. :P What is time but a product of human perception? And Yet Again, I am back to not knowing what consciousness is (perception requires consciousness). Aug 23 12:45:32 I've had several orders of magnitude more 'conversation' with a guy in australia - compared to my next door neighbour. Aug 23 12:45:40 brolin: night Aug 23 12:47:39 Can someone kill him- or herself and tell me what, if anything, happens after death? :P Aug 23 12:49:02 * brolin is afraid to kill himself in case he simply ceases to exist, the same as before he was conceived and/or born. Aug 23 12:50:32 To continue the pop culture references, "I'm too young to die!", but "Only the good die young.". ;) Aug 23 12:52:12 And I suppose some people get to suck a female's breasts only when they are young too. ;) Aug 23 12:56:05 Overthinking occupies the Brolin, and overchoice is incompatible with the Principle of Least Effort (POLE). Those Poles are so lazy. ;) Aug 23 12:56:42 And French people are called frogs, but Germany is the Federal Republic of Germany (FROG). ;) Aug 23 13:01:22 And when I wrote "only when they are young", I meant only when the sucker -- not the suckee -- is young. :P Aug 23 13:02:06 And Once Again, Brolin has silenced the channel. :P Aug 23 13:02:17 gnite brolin :-) Aug 23 13:06:38 How can I find a female companion who shares my personality, sense of humour, and interests? :( Aug 23 13:07:22 brolin: cloning. Aug 23 13:07:53 Or who at least understands what I mean when I tell her I am 0x16, which means I can drive in Silicon Valley? :) Aug 23 13:08:23 you need to be 0x16 to drive in Silicon Valley? o.O Aug 23 13:09:28 Rakhun: no, it was a joke. :P Aug 23 13:10:48 I don't get the joke then, but 0x16=22, that I get Aug 23 13:11:08 Similar to how Donald Knuth gives $2.56 to readers who report errors in The Art of Computer Programming because $2.56 is a hexadecimal dollar. :) Aug 23 13:11:08 in any case, if you find a way to meet a female companion like that, please tell me how :) Aug 23 13:12:34 ok.. Aug 23 13:12:35 I never noticed it before, but I wonder if part of that joke is because some assembly languages (on the C64, for example?) use $ to prefix hex values, like 0x in C? Aug 23 13:13:26 ...and ruby/gtk/poppler renders PDF on SHR :) Aug 23 13:14:12 some tiny but very important fixes in the configuration phase of the ruby binding *sigh* Aug 23 13:14:18 brolin: no idea, I haven't ventured deeper into asm than some hello world that links to glibc Aug 23 13:14:27 Rakhun: because if you need to be 16 to drive outside Silicon Valley, you need to be 0x16 to drive in Silicon Valley. ;) Aug 23 13:14:45 brolin: well, 0x10 Aug 23 13:15:24 brolin: and I don't quite see how reading 0x16 as 16 would be celever at all, isn't that what people who don't know hex would say? :) Aug 23 13:16:01 clever* Aug 23 13:16:57 Rakhun: If you have to ask why, you are not part of the intended audience. ;) Aug 23 13:17:27 brolin: yeah.. I suppose not Aug 23 13:22:19 * Kero whistles as some ruby/gtk/glade app works (it's about addresses ;) ) as well as the gtkbuilder flavour (though my particular files uses 2.16, not 2.14, thus doing some things wrong) Aug 23 13:23:25 Rakhun: I was going to ask where you are (geographically), but after checking /whois, I suspect you are in Sweden. ;) Aug 23 13:24:29 Anyway, bedtime. :P Aug 23 13:25:11 It is already light outside. (fail) Aug 23 13:25:43 Night. Aug 23 13:27:31 brolin: yep, it's sweden Aug 23 13:48:54 <|Marco|> hm, looks like the A6 is less prone to "White Screen of Death" than the A5 (so far) Aug 23 14:43:48 [SHR-U]Hello all, anybody know much about building shr-unstable? I built it as per instructions and it build an image ok but that image don't seem to power up in the phone Aug 23 14:53:58 Arigead: can you explain more about your problems? Aug 23 14:57:04 PaulFertser: Sorry but I'm not sure what i can add at all. Did a successful build and reflahsed the kernel and the rootfs into my neo. Loads of boot info but then gets to "starting freesmartphone.org gpsd compatability deamon and sits there. I'll try and ssh into it and see if there's anything in the logs. If I can remember where they are for freesmmartphone Aug 23 15:06:27 Arigead: yes, that's the first thing to do: ssh in. Aug 23 15:07:25 * Kero bought a 240V-USB charger, but it does only 300mA. can do 100mA with Neo, but that's not really what I wanted... Aug 23 15:09:37 300mA is a quite weird amount for a usb wall charger to max out at... Aug 23 15:11:42 yep, really Aug 23 15:11:52 I'd say somebody was screwed over Aug 23 15:11:54 Kero: isn't 300mA enough for you? You can force fastcharge, so it will try to sink 500mA, resulting in 300? Aug 23 15:12:24 PaulFertser: that might trigger foldback short protection and fail Aug 23 15:12:33 no, rather resulting in a fuse burn on the charger, or possibly just burn. Aug 23 15:12:34 PaulFertser: What's happened the laptop has started trying to route all traffic through the openmoko FreeRunner. It's never tried to do that before. Aug 23 15:13:07 mjr: such a device never may be sold in whole EU Aug 23 15:13:34 I suppose nowhere in the world (maybe except northern corea and india) Aug 23 15:15:09 mjr: the device claims 300mA on its sticker. and it certainly won't do 500 mA :( Aug 23 15:17:55 (why does typing on the keyboard make my neo hickup the music... typing should not be CPU intensive!) Aug 23 15:24:28 you were sold a useless piece of shit Aug 23 15:24:45 ARM7 is pretty weak when it comes to multitasking. Aug 23 15:24:51 [SHR-U] I have taken the first step and built shr-u as per instructions in the wiki and that worked (Although I'm having problems with the installed image) I wanted to take the next step and followed the instructions for "Getting Started Developing SHR" but now when I make image in the shr-unstable directory I've got an error: Multiple .bb files are due to be built which each provide virtual/xserver Could anybody adv Aug 23 15:24:51 ise me on a solution? Aug 23 15:24:57 Kero, may be yoi listenning music from uSD Aug 23 15:25:03 that mounted in sync mode? Aug 23 15:25:11 remount it async in this case Aug 23 15:33:15 jjwc: s3c2442 is not arm7? Aug 23 15:34:10 Ah, forget whatever I said... I'm barely awake Aug 23 15:34:55 * jjwc covers his IRC client's entry line Aug 23 15:36:03 max_posedon: fixed a/sync ages ago. Aug 23 15:36:39 PaulFertser: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Forcing_fast_charge_mode does not work. chgmode is read-only ! Aug 23 15:37:07 usb_curlim doe not even exist Aug 23 15:41:28 Kero: you need to chmod the node first Aug 23 15:44:40 exrta protection? Aug 23 15:47:17 for now it refuses to charge at all. guess 100% battery is not good to test these kind of things ;) Aug 23 15:47:46 Kero: no, just a mistake Aug 23 15:53:38 Hello, is it possible that for 16. june testing release of OM2009 the screen save will not work? Aug 23 15:54:25 Sorry for mistake, I mean disabling light of feature Aug 23 15:55:33 Also mean "mdbus -s org.freesmartphone.ousaged /org/freesmartphone/Usage org.freesmartphone.Usage.SetResourcePolicy Display enabled" gives "Service name not found" Aug 23 15:56:51 mdbus is nice, "mdbus -s org.freesmartphone.ousaged /org/freesmartphone/Usage" will tell you what is available for Usage. Aug 23 15:58:55 hmm...same result: "Service name not found" Aug 23 15:59:59 ok mbus -s gives: Aug 23 16:00:12 fi.epitest.hostap.WPASupplicantorg.bluezorg.freedesktop.Avahiorg.freedesktop.DBusorg.freedesktop.Gypsyorg.freedesktop.Halorg.freesmartphone.frameworkdorg.freesmartphone.odevicedorg.freesmartphone.oeventsdorg.freesmartphone.ogpsdorg.freesmartphone.ogsmdorg.freesmartphone.onetworkdorg.freesmartphone.ophonedorg.freesmartphone.opreferencesdorg.freesmartphone.otimedorg.freesmartphone.testingorg.moblin.connmanorg.pyneo.muxerorg.tichy.launcher Aug 23 16:00:19 will check Aug 23 16:04:37 if i want to load kernelmodules i get for exmaple error like this "modprobe ohci-hcd" Aug 23 16:04:56 i use an self compiled kernel with debian Aug 23 16:05:00 modules are installed Aug 23 16:05:09 only ipv6 module works Aug 23 16:05:22 any idea? Aug 23 16:08:52 ups, error like this "FATAL: Module ehci_hcd not found. Aug 23 16:08:52 " Aug 23 16:31:54 fast_charge indeed draws more than 100mA. Now wait an see if the charger melts :) Aug 23 16:33:17 np: Prodigy - Firestarter Aug 23 16:45:42 opened the charger, one rather hot transistor close to the plastic. I *think* I'll return the charger. Aug 23 17:04:13 Gah, looks like the latest update to SHR kills FSO Aug 23 17:20:55 freesmartphone.org: 03seba.dos1 07framework * r6d41a5427845 10/framework/subsystems/opimd/ (4 files): opimd: SQLite-*: fix traceback when editing Aug 23 17:54:35 i have no /dev/ttySAC1 - what could be the problem? Aug 23 17:54:49 blan: udev configuration? Aug 23 17:55:15 blan: KERNEL=="s3c2410_serial[0-9]", NAME="ttySAC%n" Aug 23 17:55:20 PaulFertser, i cant find any about udev and gps in the main freerunner gps-article Aug 23 17:55:45 blan: well you need that for GSM too Aug 23 17:55:59 udev.conf? Aug 23 17:56:01 blan: are you doing something interesting (using gentoo/compiling kernel from scratch/buildroot/angstrom/whatever)? Aug 23 17:56:20 PaulFertser, yes my own kernel Aug 23 17:56:26 blan: here the line i mentioned is in 55-gta02-neo-freerunner.rules Aug 23 17:56:40 as described in the kernel-article Aug 23 17:56:49 blan: CONFIG_SERIAL_S3C2410=y Aug 23 17:57:23 PaulFertser, yes Aug 23 17:57:35 is built in Aug 23 17:58:23 blan: then configure your udev as others do Aug 23 17:59:04 there is a z60_gpsd.rules in my udev rules directory Aug 23 17:59:10 remove? Aug 23 18:01:20 blan: look and make the decision yourself Aug 23 18:09:29 hi guys, did someone already test opimd-notes? (keep in mind you have to have latest frameworkd with config updated) Aug 23 21:24:51 whars new/ going on with paroli lately? Aug 23 21:26:35 http://downloads.openmoko.org/distro/experimental/NeoFreerunner/ Aug 23 21:28:02 i think not much Aug 23 21:37:39 openmoko: 03rehar * r5532 10/trunk/gta02-core/ (4 files in 2 dirs): Aug 23 21:37:39 openmoko: - changed ECN0022 according to use tantalum caps Aug 23 21:37:39 openmoko: - replaced symbol of C4111/4110/4308/4307 with polarized caps Aug 23 21:37:39 openmoko: - added ECN0033 "Replace coupling capacitors for input/output lines" Aug 23 22:13:14 http://www.buy.com/prod/sandisk-16gb-microsd-high-capacity-card-16-gb/q/loc/101/210460849.html Aug 23 22:23:23 Slaxxer: so what? Aug 23 22:26:18 Slaxxer: well the cardreader is a nice addon, though for same effective price I could buy a 16GB plus a small one with similar reader Aug 23 22:42:18 Has anyone tried using freerunner as a bootable usb flash drive? Sounds like fun. Is there a demand for a howto or is it obvious? Aug 23 22:44:33 I'd read the howto Aug 23 22:44:38 heck, I'd probably use it Aug 23 22:44:49 one less thing to carry Aug 23 22:45:14 is there a way to have FR to be recognised as a flash drive? Aug 23 22:45:27 you can do that with any linux Aug 23 22:45:28 tomcatek: sure Aug 23 22:45:32 ndnihil: not any Aug 23 22:45:39 well, something suitably recent Aug 23 22:45:49 2.6 or later? Aug 23 22:45:54 ndnihil: only those that can act as a usb device, i don't think desktop motherboards support that Aug 23 22:45:54 PaulFertser: is there any howto? Aug 23 22:45:58 I dont recall seeing the module in 2.4 Aug 23 22:46:25 I didn't know it was hardware dependent Aug 23 22:46:33 only tried it on embedded things though Aug 23 22:46:35 not the FR yet Aug 23 22:46:40 tomcatek: basically you do something like "dd if=/dev/zero of=slax.image bs=100M count=5" Aug 23 22:47:04 tomcatek: then you can do "rmmod g_ether; modprobe g_file_storage file=slax.image" Aug 23 22:47:22 hmm.. Aug 23 22:47:29 nice to know :) Aug 23 22:47:30 tomcatek: connect it like to your host, you'll see a raw device (let's assume that'd be /dev/sdb). Aug 23 22:48:13 tomcatek: "fdisk /dev/sdb", create new empty partition table, add one partition. Mark it as FAT32. Save and exit. mkfs.vfat it. Aug 23 22:48:48 tomcatek: then you'll have /dev/sdb1 appeared and you can mount it the usual way. Untar slax on it and run boot/bootinst.sh Aug 23 22:48:53 tomcatek: enjoy Aug 23 22:49:04 tomcatek: if these instructions work for you please write a howto on the wiki Aug 23 22:49:11 PaulFertser: thanks! Aug 23 22:49:43 hehehe. I wos a bit supprised, that there is no howto, and there os a way Aug 23 22:49:47 tomcatek: don't forget to reconnect the device after you do rmmod g_ether Aug 23 22:50:39 tomcatek: of course you'll lose ssh connectivity after that. To get everything back do "rmmod g_file_storage; modprobe g_ether" Aug 23 22:50:44 Well, obvious stuff like that. Aug 23 22:51:07 I just wonder if those fucked up bioses will like that, after all the idea is to boot from it... Aug 23 22:51:42 Also i really recommend to download windows inf files there and putty.exe so if you're forced to use some windows PC you'll just install everything necessary from the freerunner itself. Aug 23 22:52:29 heh... some good ideas Aug 23 22:53:04 i just tought about making some scripts with short names, so I could run them trom FR terminal Aug 23 22:53:17 everythime i'd like to have a device Aug 23 22:53:34 (device = flash drive) Aug 23 22:53:56 to mount and umount that module Aug 23 22:56:48 tomcatek: yeah-yeah... BTW, don't forget that with real flash drive you'll get superiour speed comparing to FR. FR is too limited in too many respects. Aug 23 22:59:01 in my car I have a radio with USB, so I wos looking forward to hava a possibility to play some music from FR and use it as a GPS navigation plugged into power supply at the same time :) Aug 23 22:59:35 tomcatek: playing mp3's would work ok, i can't see any problems. Aug 23 22:59:47 excuse me can someone help me to put other apps in the down bar? Aug 23 23:00:09 something like this Aug 23 23:00:25 but i need to know how to put other to apps in the bar for i have only dialer in the middle Aug 23 23:00:54 tomcatek: btw, if you want to mount hard drive image (means it contains MBR and stuff) on FR itself, you can do it like this: "losetup -o 32256 -f slax.image; mount /dev/loop0 /mnt" Aug 23 23:01:37 PaulFertser: "mount -o loop" wouldn't work? Aug 23 23:02:33 tomcatek: ah, it will provided you use it this way: "mount -o loop,offset=32256" Aug 23 23:02:42 tomcatek: (to skip partition table etc) Aug 23 23:03:42 PaulFertser: I'm not going to mke any partition table at all. no need to have one for me Aug 23 23:04:28 tomcatek: hm, usually flash drives use partition tables. Aug 23 23:04:44 tomcatek: i'm also not sure if bioses allow booting from "super-floppy" devices. Aug 23 23:05:04 tomcatek: in fact i actively don't like that concept, i prefer to treat mass storage device as a harddrive rather than floppy. Aug 23 23:07:12 PaulFertser: I'm not going to boot anything from my FR (at least for now), so only to play some music I can omit partition table Aug 23 23:09:08 tomcatek: i'm not sure but probably you'll need to do something like "ifconfig usb0 192.168.0.202 up" after you modprobe g_ether again. Aug 23 23:09:52 PaulFertser: i know. that interface is going down after every other interface usage Aug 23 23:10:38 PaulFertser: if I'll make decent version of those scripts I wos talking about I'll try to write on the wiki about that Aug 23 23:11:42 tomcatek: cool. But tbh i'm interested in booting most of all. To be able to use any PC i face without carrying CDs (too easy to scratch too much) or usb flash drive (i've lost mine). ;) Aug 23 23:12:41 PaulFertser: so it's just lazyness talking thru You ;) Aug 23 23:13:50 (sorry for my english...) Aug 23 23:36:28 freesmartphone.org: 03Frederik.Sdun 07dbus-hlid * r5df7f49fe888 10/src/obj.vala: Add ListChildrenByObject **** ENDING LOGGING AT Mon Aug 24 02:59:57 2009