**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Fri Aug 28 02:59:56 2009 Aug 28 04:24:02 has anyone run android from SD? Aug 28 04:38:15 anyone using mer on the freerunner? Got any info on its usefulness? Aug 28 04:38:58 i don't think there's a phone yet for mer? (or wasn't last time i checked) Aug 28 04:41:03 http://wiki.maemo.org/Mer/Hardware/Freerunner there is :) Aug 28 04:41:17 they announced the n900 today Aug 28 04:42:01 i saw the n900...wow! Aug 28 04:42:07 indeed Aug 28 04:42:14 I'm giving up on my freerunner :/ Aug 28 04:42:32 trying to decide between n900 and drysuit for b-day now :P Aug 28 04:42:44 yeah, that n900 has me twitching too Aug 28 04:44:17 no phone yet on mer...fso hasn't been ported yet, unless zhone works Aug 28 04:45:25 palm pre looks like toy now tho :P Aug 28 04:46:21 nah, compare it to the n900 and it's a no-deal Aug 28 04:46:58 how much for the pre with a plan? Aug 28 04:48:07 Undrwater: in canada, $200 with a 3 year contract on the worst telco Aug 28 04:48:24 too expensive, too long, and too crap a telco Aug 28 04:48:39 royally Roger(s)ed? Aug 28 04:49:20 worse than rogers! Aug 28 04:49:28 ouch Aug 28 04:49:28 how much of a discount for the plan? Aug 28 04:49:31 hard and all as that may be to believe Aug 28 04:49:39 Undrwater: no idea, what's retail without a plan? Aug 28 04:49:54 you can't even buy it from them without one Aug 28 04:50:03 screw palm and their sucky cdma/telco choice Aug 28 04:50:09 right...but there's usually a standard discount Aug 28 04:50:18 they'll go gsm Aug 28 04:50:42 meh, the tech is already obsolete in comparison the 900 Aug 28 04:50:44 $200 here in the US Aug 28 04:50:47 n900 Aug 28 04:50:52 Undrwater: no contract? Aug 28 04:50:58 with contract Aug 28 04:51:03 and without? Aug 28 04:51:42 the n900 is a computer with a gsm chip attached :) the pre isn't even open source in any real sense Aug 28 04:52:09 The Pre is available on Pre-order/Backorder @ $699.99 Aug 28 04:52:13 that's GSM Aug 28 04:52:25 hello n900 Aug 28 04:52:30 more expensive than the n900 is likely to be, and the n900 is far more useful Aug 28 04:52:52 hehe Aug 28 04:52:56 probably arrive around the same time Aug 28 04:53:17 I wonder if this might kill palm. they must be worried Aug 28 04:53:59 only if the nokia-maemo can get a carrier i'd think Aug 28 04:54:10 it's nokia, I doubt it'll be a problem Aug 28 04:55:28 unless carriers worry about how "open" the OS is? that whole VOIP over wifi thing too Aug 28 04:56:42 true Aug 28 04:57:25 even if the software were mature, i doubt any carriers would take the OM Aug 28 04:57:56 yeah, but OM never had nokia's weight Aug 28 04:58:18 of course not... Aug 28 04:58:40 nokia has the greenphone now, right? :P Aug 28 04:59:24 heh Aug 28 04:59:26 no idea Aug 28 04:59:43 they bought qtopia...wonder what they're doing with it Aug 28 05:01:56 http://www.elite-electronix.com/palm-pre-gsm-unlocked Aug 28 05:05:13 Undrwater: qtopia ~= qt Aug 28 05:05:22 Undrwater: and they're switching towards that in maemo Aug 28 05:06:43 what is it now? gtk? Aug 28 05:10:32 up to OS 2008 it was Aug 28 05:12:57 Hi, yesterday I've installed shm testing on my neo. But there are some points which I want shortly to discuss: Aug 28 05:12:57 1. The Messaging Application did not read the sms sim storage. I stores the sms sent and received only on local filesystem? Correct? Aug 28 05:12:57 2. The Dialer only use the sim storage, but did not have an own storage on local filesystem. Correct? Aug 28 05:12:57 3. An Bluetooth application for different services is currently not available? Only terminal based configurations could been found except switching BT hardware on and of, but bluez4 stack must been started manually because fails by booting the neo. Correct? Aug 28 05:13:00 4. Some applications from armv4t which could install will not work. For me e.g. OMView is not working. Possible must be recompiled? Aug 28 05:16:50 CosmicDuck: 1-3 are correct Aug 28 05:17:19 for 4, your best bet is to upgrade to unstable, or attempt to get python 2.6 i believe Aug 28 05:17:37 truly, there is no devel happening on testing right now Aug 28 05:17:52 they're talking about getting it going...but everything is happening with unstable Aug 28 05:41:18 Undrwater: Ok thank you. Aug 28 05:41:46 np Aug 28 05:42:14 Another question, what do you think about the htc mobile phone named T-Mobile G2 touch. Looks like an neo extended device ...;-) Aug 28 05:42:45 haven't seen that yet...but nokia n900 blows it out of the water, i bet...we're all drooling over it Aug 28 05:42:46 but the software must be changed Aug 28 05:44:00 Ah its named official htc touch pro 2 Aug 28 05:44:08 http://www.t-mobile.com/shop/phones/Cell-Phone-Detail.aspx?cell-phone=HTC-Touch-Pro-2&WT.z_HP=Ph3 Aug 28 05:45:04 Undrwater: all? Aug 28 05:52:01 lindi-: correction: a bunch of us are drooling over it :P Aug 28 06:09:47 Hi, I have called with my provider, but the connection looks like has been droped. But the dialer says still Active call. Release Button did not help. Problem? Aug 28 06:10:42 shr unstable? Aug 28 06:13:27 no testing Aug 28 06:14:30 problem is you're using testing :) Aug 28 06:15:01 ehh...unstable is more stable? Aug 28 06:15:21 yes Aug 28 06:15:36 it's developed... Aug 28 06:15:38 testing is not Aug 28 06:16:13 ok..must i reinstall or can i use opkg for an upgrade? Aug 28 06:16:32 i recommend reflash...unless you know what you're doing Aug 28 06:25:46 which jffs2 should I use? shr-lite-glibc-ipk--20090808-om-gta02.rootfs.jffs2 Aug 28 06:31:49 that's the one :) Aug 28 06:32:06 have you seen the user manual on the wiki? Aug 28 06:44:27 Undrwater: I've seen that the files are stored on http://build.shr-project.org/shr-unstable/images/om-gta02/ Aug 28 06:44:43 on the web page http://wiki.shr-project.org/trac/wiki/Install Aug 28 06:44:58 on the openmoko wiki there's a shr user manual Aug 28 06:45:20 hmm Aug 28 06:45:22 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/SHR_User_Manual Aug 28 06:45:46 before updating, i recommend creating a swap (file or partition) Aug 28 06:46:03 Oh..sorry, will flash Aug 28 06:48:04 So I should use the unstable files from http://build.shr-project.org/shr-unstable/images/om-gta02/. but it looks like there is no full jffs2 image so baclk to my question: is shr-lite-glibc-ipk--20090808-om-gta02.rootfs.jffs2 the correct one? Aug 28 06:50:36 I'm having trouble using the FR with my Mac. Whenever the mac-address (??) of the FR changes, the Mac sees this and adds an interface. I can then jump through some hoops to set the IP address etc. I am then able to connect to the FR and get Internet sharing working. Aug 28 06:51:12 However, the 2nd (and later) time(s) that I connect the FR, the Mac just sits there and claims that the network cable is not connected. Any ideas what I can do to troubleshoot this? Aug 28 06:52:40 you should use shr-unstable or om2009 or smth with latest kernel Aug 28 06:52:54 neo will have constant mac-address Aug 28 06:53:13 and your know, mac is ... ) Aug 28 06:53:19 Strange, I'm using Qi and SHR-U, and still this sometimes comes up... Aug 28 06:54:25 may be smth bad with mac driver, but I'm sure neo have constant mac address with latest kernels Aug 28 06:54:45 Yes, that's what I've been reading as well... Aug 28 06:54:47 all Linux people switched from usb0(dynamic) to ethN(static) few month ago Aug 28 06:55:00 Hum... Aug 28 06:55:19 When I connect my FR to my Ubuntu system at home, I still get usb0... Aug 28 06:55:49 you kidding Aug 28 06:56:09 That seems weird now that you remind me that it should have changed to ethN. Aug 28 06:56:11 or running very old shr-U or very old kernel Aug 28 06:56:45 No, when I'm re-connecting the FR at home, I do ifconfig down usb0 && ifconfig up usb0 to get the connection 'up' again. Aug 28 06:57:05 The SHR-U has been opkg update && opkg upgrade to a few days ago. Aug 28 06:57:17 Kernel has been updated yesterday. Aug 28 06:57:18 but now you know where is problem, try fix it, for example via *flashing* latest shr-U and *kernel* Aug 28 06:57:36 I hate flashing, since it messes with my setup... Aug 28 06:57:45 I have no idea except this, sorry Aug 28 06:58:18 I'm trying to use the dang thing as a daily phone, and I regularly install stuff on it. When I re-flash, all of that gets lost and it's a lot of hassle to get it back... Aug 28 06:58:44 I do know that 'daily phone' and SHR-U sometimes don't mix, but usually there's no problem there... Aug 28 06:58:55 you can flash latest kernel without messing with your system Aug 28 06:59:12 hm... ok, so, try verify kernel version, I'm not right person to speak about kernel problems( Aug 28 06:59:28 Yup, I can do that... I'll try that now. Aug 28 07:01:52 ChristW: yes, flashing latest kernel doesn't have any effect on your data Aug 28 07:02:14 I just re-flashed the latest kernel form the SHR-U repo (dated aug 16th). Aug 28 07:02:40 ChristW: looks reasonable Aug 28 07:02:40 So, let's see what happens if I re-plug it... Aug 28 07:04:01 ChristW: (read the backlog) i guess you might be running an old Qi version. Aug 28 07:04:27 _Maybe_, but I can't find any new version on the SHR-U site (??) Aug 28 07:04:45 is there ever going to be a kexec boot kernel for the freerunner? Aug 28 07:05:04 it's on the openmoko site Aug 28 07:05:07 ChristW: the newest Qi can be downloaded from "experimental" at downloads.openmoko.org Aug 28 07:05:39 I'll get the August 26 version then. Looks shine new ;-) Aug 28 07:05:51 i'd love to use qi, but i want to be able to select the partition i'm booting Aug 28 07:07:19 Can I rename the .udfu file to .bin to let Openmoko Flasher on the Mac 'see' the file? Aug 28 07:07:20 ChristW: it's just the compile date. Aug 28 07:07:27 ChristW: sure Aug 28 07:07:43 Undrwater: Qi allows skipping of boot possibilities. Aug 28 07:07:55 Undrwater: at least i mostly can select between booting from uSD and NAND. Aug 28 07:08:20 PaulFertser: but if i had 2 partitions on SD and an image on NAND...it's difficult to select, isn't it? Aug 28 07:08:33 * max_posedon sometimes thinking about booting _without_ boot loadeer, directly kernel Aug 28 07:08:35 Undrwater: i've never tried, probably. Aug 28 07:08:42 PaulFertser, is it possible theoretically? Aug 28 07:08:49 max_posedon: no Aug 28 07:08:58 hm... why? Aug 28 07:08:59 max_posedon: well, Aug 28 07:09:33 max_posedon: if you keep your kernel in NOR. And somehow pre-made ATAGs for it then probably yes. Aug 28 07:09:36 kernel can't do init of some subsytem that qi/uboot can Aug 28 07:09:54 ATAGs? sorry, don't understand fully Aug 28 07:10:27 I thought kernel just want params (can be hardcoded in kernel config) Aug 28 07:10:43 some initialization stuff, not important or can be moved to kernel... Aug 28 07:11:18 Ups...my enlighment has been disrupted Aug 28 07:11:56 filesystem on rootfs has been destroyed Aug 28 07:12:48 max_posedon: not only kernel command line but also some other important ATAGs should be set by bootloader, at least that's how it works on ARM. Aug 28 07:12:59 reflashing new unstabel shm now...will go to my stallion for the time of reflashing. Aug 28 07:13:19 max_posedon: and anyway, why bother with expensive NOR, small bootloader like Qi is simple enough... Aug 28 07:16:36 anyone know how many USB endpoints does the FR USB controller have? or how to find out? lsusb doesn't seem to help Aug 28 07:17:11 pabs3: no idea, the SoC datasheet should be able to tell. Aug 28 07:17:35 pabs3: but for some reason other usb gadgets can't be loaded when g_ether was first so it might be a hind. Aug 28 07:17:42 pabs3: 4 i think Aug 28 07:17:56 pabs3: see my bug reports and emails that match "gadget" Aug 28 07:18:33 PaulFertser, may be because usb-hub protocol isn't implemented?) Aug 28 07:18:57 PaulFertser: yeah, to have ethernet and tty at the same time you need g_acm. for more configurations you apparently need to write your own driver Aug 28 07:19:43 PaulFertser: you can only have one gadget loaded Aug 28 07:20:26 but that one gadget can do multiple things (ethernet, tty, printer, etc) Aug 28 07:20:40 hmm.. what was my flash partition device again? (booted from sd atm) Aug 28 07:21:09 lindi-: i see. Never understood all that tricky usb stuff anyway ;) Aug 28 07:21:34 PaulFertser: I have hard time understanding the motivation behind usb too Aug 28 07:21:41 kahless|ZzzZ: /dev/mtdblock6 Aug 28 07:22:21 PaulFertser: but at least the standard lets you specify that you have a 38 button mouse where button 17 is controlled using your left eyebrows Aug 28 07:22:41 reminds me of X except that X is actually more sane Aug 28 07:22:47 PaulFertser: thx a lot :) Aug 28 08:10:03 openmoko: 03alvieboy * r5562 10/trunk/gta02-core/gps.sch: Fix TEST->TST footprint Aug 28 08:45:53 are there any known issues with GSM/SIM on om2009 unstable ? Since I upgraded from testing, it does not seem to see the SIM card any more Aug 28 08:46:07 and it refuses to suspend Aug 28 08:58:34 how to upgrade fresh installed unstable? opkg is not installed? Aug 28 09:01:30 CosmicDuck: opkg-cl? Aug 28 09:02:01 Majkhii thank you Aug 28 09:02:26 CosmicDuck: no problem Aug 28 09:04:13 Yann|work: Do not upgrade om2009 Aug 28 09:05:00 hi all Aug 28 09:05:09 Yann|work: or upgrade all packages manual without frameworkd-configure or so. The problem begins with upgrade these package. Aug 28 09:06:04 Yann|work: You can use opkg list_upgradable to get the packages for upgrade and than use opkg upgrade CosmicDuck: ok, so I just downgrade frameworkd-* and all should be better, right ? Aug 28 09:17:24 Ok, my ac crashed in between, but I now have a working Qi, a working kernel, an SHR-U that's up-to-date, a PIN dialog, and a phone registered to the network. Whew... Aug 28 09:17:29 s/ac/Mac/ Aug 28 09:17:29 ChristW meant: Ok, my Mac crashed in between, but I now have a working Qi, a working kernel, an SHR-U that's up-to-date, a PIN dialog, and a phone registered to the network. Whew... Aug 28 09:39:09 hm, "Multiple packages (frameworkd and frameworkd) providing same name marked HOLD or PREFER. Using latest." Aug 28 09:39:31 when calling "opkg install --force-downgrade" on the downloaded .ipk Aug 28 09:40:00 is there an easy way out (short of removing the package with --force-depends first) ? Aug 28 09:50:22 Ok, so now I have my original problem back. Unplugging the USB cable from the FR and re-plugging it does _not_ bring back my en14 interface... Aug 28 10:03:02 hm, I find it strange that, after removinf frameworkd and running "opkg install" on the .ipk, it decides by itself to download a more recent version Aug 28 10:03:13 I can't think of a situation where it makes sense :) Aug 28 10:03:49 a bug. Also seen in Yast some years ago. Cut connectivity Aug 28 10:03:50 and I don't see a flag to prevent that Aug 28 10:04:50 dunno if it helps, but at least no dl obviously then Aug 28 10:05:02 trying to unset the proxy Aug 28 10:05:15 else I'll just comment out the unstable feeds just for that Aug 28 10:05:29 might help as well Aug 28 10:05:56 maybe need update Aug 28 10:48:04 hm, no improvement after downgrading :( Aug 28 10:50:21 so what is the situation with linux-2.6.32 any patches going upstream? Aug 28 10:52:02 Ke: the situation is that this channel is not the place to ask :-) Aug 28 10:53:45 Ke: i mean, i think openmoko-kernel mailing list has info on this Aug 28 10:54:24 I guess there should be a tracker Aug 28 11:01:11 hi there Aug 28 11:02:05 hello all.. i couldn't connect to the python-channel, so i hope, here are some python-peobles Aug 28 11:02:30 i want to fix a bug in pisi, but i've got a problem Aug 28 11:02:31 question - I've got a Neo which came with the GPS fix alread applied (soldered on the contacts under the microSD card) but now I experience that I'm not getting a fix when the microSD-card is accessed.. is it normal that it takes _very_ long even with the fix or is my fix probably broken? Aug 28 11:02:42 http://pastebin.com/d5f6af0ec Aug 28 11:02:57 using the AT-customized pack as described here atm: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Configure_Om_2009_for_Austrian_use Aug 28 11:03:41 i've got ah exception by ah jabber-entry, so this is throw Aug 28 11:04:07 from vobject, a subclass Aug 28 11:04:22 so, this shoudn't be the problem, i could catch this Aug 28 11:04:53 but i've a problem because the throwen exception kicks me out of the foreach.. Aug 28 11:05:33 lindi-: so where is these patches by Lars for 2.6.31 Aug 28 11:06:13 if i make the try-except in the foreach, i've got a trackback, if i make it ou of them, i could catch it (but it's nonsene, because i just want to skip ONE object from the list, not all) Aug 28 11:06:23 lindi-: why would some bizarre sick person use ~unmaintained andy-tracking when there is 2.6.31-based tree Aug 28 11:06:32 hope, someone could help me Aug 28 11:06:45 (it also helps other peobles ;) ) Aug 28 11:08:00 Ke: probably on openwrt repo Aug 28 11:08:19 Ke: i use andy-tracking since it is stable :) Aug 28 11:10:48 maintained >> stable Aug 28 11:15:24 Graf_Ithaka: check if uSD is mounted sync; you probably want async. Aug 28 11:16:38 though i'm lost on how that would influence getting GPS fix.. Aug 28 11:16:39 Ke: there aren't any 2.6.31 patches yet. Aug 28 11:16:45 Kero: I removed microSD, put it back in.. now it works.. strange.. I'm just hoping there isnt a problem with the contacts.. but from what I saw it just worked fine Aug 28 11:16:55 couldnt see any damage Aug 28 11:16:59 ok Aug 28 11:17:25 larsc: ok so I missunderstood the first message Aug 28 11:17:29 well anyways thanks for help.. Aug 28 11:17:52 Ke, what first message? Aug 28 11:18:42 http://www.mail-archive.com/openmoko-kernel@lists.openmoko.org/msg09969.html "I do have patches against 2.6.31 for full gta02 support which could be used to initialize the trees to get them functional. " Aug 28 11:20:55 Ke: well, i do have patches for 2.6.31-rc4 on my harddrive, but most of them are outdated, since development has made some progress in the 2.6.30 tree Aug 28 11:21:23 ok Aug 28 11:35:09 hm just out of curiosity, is there some way of *updating* openstreetmap-data without having to re-download the whole map? just some kind of *only get changes* Aug 28 11:37:19 Graf_Ithaka: yes there is for real osm data - no there isn't for prerendered map tiles (except for yaouh! which works on a tile per tile basis) Aug 28 11:40:00 does someone know how i could delete all the opimd-contacts at once? Aug 28 11:41:39 bumbl: oki thx :) Aug 28 11:54:21 raster: howdy Aug 28 11:54:41 raster: .kr? Aug 28 11:55:36 DocScrutinizer2: boo! Aug 28 11:55:38 not yet Aug 28 11:55:42 flying out on the weekend Aug 28 11:55:46 aah Aug 28 11:56:00 harald seems to wait for you ;-) Aug 28 11:56:25 raster: already ordered your RX-51? ;-) Aug 28 11:56:33 zecke should be around too Aug 28 11:56:46 and it seems there's more stuff to be done :) Aug 28 11:56:50 rx51? Aug 28 11:56:54 raster: naah, wait. I bet you already have a proto Aug 28 11:57:09 http://www.mobile-review.com/review/nokia-rx51-n900-en.shtml Aug 28 11:57:43 DocScrutinizer2: http://maemo.nokia.com/ Aug 28 11:57:55 yo, as well Aug 28 11:57:59 since 24h Aug 28 11:58:02 ooh n900 Aug 28 11:58:13 nah - dont have one Aug 28 11:58:20 not sure i will get one. Aug 28 11:58:37 i'm pondering. i will get my grubby hands on some better hw soon enough Aug 28 11:58:52 ie almost double the speed of the omap3 in there. Aug 28 11:58:56 http://www.nokia.de/produkte/mobiltelefone/nokia-n900 Aug 28 11:58:58 how can i resist that? Aug 28 11:59:00 :) Aug 28 11:59:36 raster: duh! is that S3xxxx THAT fast? Aug 28 11:59:46 There will always be something faster coming down the pipe. Aug 28 11:59:46 nah they aren't Aug 28 12:00:21 but there's real silicon in real boxes running real stuff already pushing past the 2430 in the n900 Aug 28 12:00:32 as i said - i will get my grubby hands on it soon enough :) Aug 28 12:00:46 i dont need to buy or ask. it kind of is a necessity Aug 28 12:00:57 nice Aug 28 12:01:10 i might get an n900 - don't know currently. Aug 28 12:01:18 its a bit expensive tho\ Aug 28 12:01:21 500eur Aug 28 12:01:28 might wait for it to drop Aug 28 12:01:47 i prefer actually getting PAID to get faster hw :) Aug 28 12:01:52 raster: is swisscom still interested in openmoko hardware after all that "troubles" / do they still pay you for working on elementary Aug 28 12:02:37 bumbl: openmoko is a dead duck. company doesnt do anything anymore - it basically has no employees. it's selling off old gta02 stock. so no - not interested Aug 28 12:03:02 as they were not interested in gta02 - but were into where gta02 is going - ie gta03/04 etc. (3g, open, good design etc.) Aug 28 12:03:13 since that isn't going to happen... not om Aug 28 12:03:32 be patient. in fact - just get an n900. if u can afford it Aug 28 12:03:42 i suspect that is about as good as u're getting right now Aug 28 12:03:59 good hw, open os (sure binary modules and blobs - but better than most) Aug 28 12:04:11 raster: Aug 28 12:04:12 Processor and 3D accelerator Aug 28 12:04:14 TI OMAP 3430: ARM Cortex-A8 600 MHz, PowerVR SGX with OpenGL ES 2.0 support Aug 28 12:04:20 as i said Aug 28 12:04:21 raster: my question aimed more in the direction on where elm is going ;) om's future doesn't bother me Aug 28 12:04:21 good hw Aug 28 12:04:22 :) Aug 28 12:04:29 oooh elm Aug 28 12:04:34 raster: may there is hope.. http://koolu.com/News/Koolu-News.html Aug 28 12:04:38 well... it's gettign widgets added as we spoeak Aug 28 12:04:50 raster: http://maemo.nokia.com/n900/specifications/ Aug 28 12:04:52 i'm adding features to scroller right now actuall - well documenting it first then adding them in Aug 28 12:05:02 but these news are old, and koolu also doesn't seem to port android.. Aug 28 12:05:37 * Etu cannot resist bying a n900 Aug 28 12:05:53 the specs are too great Aug 28 12:06:22 skamster20_: koolu is a google shop. thus android all over. i know i have about as much interest in android as i do in becoming a sea urchin. :) Aug 28 12:06:25 It looks like they chose the easy route on features. Aug 28 12:06:32 They jammed _everything_ in. Aug 28 12:06:50 (well - apart from a d-pad - multiple SD, ...) Aug 28 12:06:51 * DocScrutinizer2 googles for "urchin" Aug 28 12:07:03 :) Aug 28 12:07:26 lol Aug 28 12:07:31 mmh, it doesn't look like, may i read it wrong (i'm not sooo fit in english), but didn't they are write about a w.e-phone? Aug 28 12:07:37 raster: well the n900 is even bigger than the gta02 Aug 28 12:07:39 bumbl: elm's future is bright atm. it has real adoption outside the openmoko world. elm will eventually become e;s own widget set in e18. Aug 28 12:07:47 which is too big for my pocket Aug 28 12:07:49 bumbl: bigger but actually good features Aug 28 12:07:50 raster: cool Aug 28 12:08:19 like bigger screen - flat surface touchscreen, real kbd, fast cpu (about 6x maybe 7x the speed of the gta02) Aug 28 12:08:36 but if thats too big - u'll have to wait as nothing else exists atm Aug 28 12:08:55 but n900 i suspect is the pinnacle of it all atm. Aug 28 12:08:59 * bumbl has to catch up with e17 development - i thought e17 was far from being released but as it seems there are plans for e18 cool Aug 28 12:09:19 i'd love something slim and phone-like with similar or better specs (cpu, ram, screen res, wifi, 3g, etc.) Aug 28 12:09:24 but that doesn't exist... yet Aug 28 12:09:27 raster: (flat surface ts) still it's a r-ts (like on OMNIA) Aug 28 12:09:36 if there is something i can do about it... i hope it will. Aug 28 12:09:37 raster: thank god (or Nokia) Aug 28 12:09:52 DocScrutinizer2: n900 is resistive? Aug 28 12:09:56 yo Aug 28 12:10:04 sams as the monias then - yup Aug 28 12:10:08 thats god downsides Aug 28 12:10:11 according to all I learned Aug 28 12:10:18 like the ts doesnt go inactive when u put it in your pocket Aug 28 12:10:25 raster: i know but it is a) too big b) from nokia (and even if it is os i have not had that good experience with nokia phones c) at the moment too expensive Aug 28 12:10:27 huh? Aug 28 12:11:06 why can't you switch off a r-ts?? Aug 28 12:11:33 but you *can* *not* do e.g. handwriting recog on a c-ts Aug 28 12:12:01 bumbl: agreed on c and a - so in that case.. you're in the waiting pool :( Aug 28 12:12:10 try draw a sketch on a c-ts Aug 28 12:12:13 DocScrutinizer2: you can switch it off - but explicitly Aug 28 12:12:22 ie u cant just put it in your pocket and "forget" Aug 28 12:12:24 DocScrutinizer2: you can but it does not do it automatically (by design) as a c-ts in the pocket (no input because no c) Aug 28 12:12:28 screen will continue to be activated Aug 28 12:12:37 u have to press a suspend/off/blank button first Aug 28 12:12:57 a c-ts will simply register no "clicks" on it in your pocket thus time-out like it was inactive Aug 28 12:13:03 bumbl: you might be completely wrong on the "no C in pocket" stuff Aug 28 12:13:04 raster: yep but at the moment the neo works more or less good enough for daily usage Aug 28 12:13:11 a c-ts is also MUCH more sensitive Aug 28 12:13:20 its amazing how much better it is at things like scrolling Aug 28 12:13:37 I like the r-ts on N810 very much Aug 28 12:13:40 DocScrutinizer2: it's true. :) so works my g1 :) Aug 28 12:13:47 just good enough for scrolling Aug 28 12:14:14 reports say the N900 is the same sensitivity Aug 28 12:15:25 i'm not with you there. c-ts in my expereicne so far is far better Aug 28 12:15:34 SAW is better Aug 28 12:15:39 N810 ts can be operated by edge of a paper, or by the literal feather Aug 28 12:15:41 but regrettably unavailable Aug 28 12:15:50 the slitest touch works Aug 28 12:15:52 slightest Aug 28 12:16:10 a very very very light swipe with my figer barely touching the surface works Aug 28 12:16:19 r-ts no way can do that Aug 28 12:16:37 raster: yeah, even works when no touch at all (i.e. 0.5mm distance to screen) I honestly dislike hat Aug 28 12:17:09 not here Aug 28 12:17:23 i am hovering my finger just above the surface - no reaction. Aug 28 12:17:56 and still c-ts is crippled for kinky fingers-only entry. Don't see how to tweak gimp / menus / whatever for that paradigm in each and every app Aug 28 12:18:19 no way u will get gimp as-is on such small screens anyway Aug 28 12:18:24 it just isnt practical Aug 28 12:18:33 do writing recog an a c-ts. Then we talk Aug 28 12:18:34 u want to have the core of gimp abstracted from the ui Aug 28 12:18:37 and have a different ui Aug 28 12:19:10 do a simple sketch app Aug 28 12:19:13 not sure why u want writing recognition. it's slower than typing Aug 28 12:19:25 sure - sketching isnt good - with fingers. Aug 28 12:19:32 u can get capactive styluses. Aug 28 12:19:43 there's a lot of things that isn't good on c-ts Aug 28 12:19:45 they work just dandily Aug 28 12:20:05 i still say capacitive is better overall as a interaction surface Aug 28 12:20:09 (styluses) yeah as thick as a finger - what's THAT?? Aug 28 12:20:32 for the things its bad at, it totally beats on resistive on what its better at Aug 28 12:20:44 no - they are much thinner than a finger Aug 28 12:20:49 oh wel, seems that's a question of personal prefs anyway Aug 28 12:20:52 i think about 4mm wide or so Aug 28 12:21:30 my finger is much closer to 15mm wide or more :) Aug 28 12:22:01 yeah, if you got the *right* c-ts they may work. But the *right* r-ts might make you think you have a c-ts while still yielding resolution of a r-type Aug 28 12:22:18 r-t's ind4eed come in better and worse varieties Aug 28 12:22:22 but... Aug 28 12:22:29 as do c-ts Aug 28 12:22:35 i have both - i have some good r-t's flat surface. Aug 28 12:23:02 it's a bit annoying to accidentally press it in another spot while preegin it somewherre else and have the position jump/move Aug 28 12:23:14 of having drags not work quite right Aug 28 12:23:31 putting it in your pocket and finding out its been on and awake for the past 30 mins and lost a chunk of battery Aug 28 12:23:33 no prblems like that here on N810 Aug 28 12:23:53 welkl i have done work on my n800 - it does that Aug 28 12:24:20 i have done it on an i780, another r-s screen, gta01 and 02, and older things Aug 28 12:24:22 n800-ts might be different to n810 - - dunno Aug 28 12:24:38 gta02 ts is crap, admittedly Aug 28 12:24:41 and i definitely prefer the capacitive. it kills some of the worst resitive ts problems that i have hit Aug 28 12:24:51 and one u never can solve is the pocket-stay-awake Aug 28 12:25:03 a resistive screen just will always do that Aug 28 12:25:12 duh, I think that's the easiest to kill Aug 28 12:25:14 Sure you can. Aug 28 12:25:21 that alone imoh is worth the downsides of a capacitive screen Aug 28 12:25:21 You add a proximity sensor Aug 28 12:25:27 which also kills the face effect Aug 28 12:25:35 SpeedEvil: u'll need several of them Aug 28 12:25:48 SpeedEvil: which btw is part of N900 afaik Aug 28 12:25:59 and a pocket will also be "proximal" :) Aug 28 12:26:02 so wont help Aug 28 12:26:15 and still I am all but convinced a c-ts never does that Aug 28 12:26:35 DocScrutinizer2: i have yet to have it do it. Aug 28 12:26:48 raster: a pocket always is "proximal" - that's the idea Aug 28 12:27:11 a proximity sensor wont help - your hands will be near it when using it Aug 28 12:27:14 as will your pocket Aug 28 12:27:33 raster: depends on contents of your pocket, and which type of clothing you wear ;-) Aug 28 12:27:40 good for the phone call "when in call mode and something near the speaker - go and stay blanked" Aug 28 12:28:07