**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Thu Dec 31 02:59:57 2009 Dec 31 03:00:03 the other end will have to be connected to the internet at all times Dec 31 03:00:04 well its no different to your pc Dec 31 03:00:07 for it to receive the call Dec 31 03:00:08 its an ip connection Dec 31 03:00:10 Obvious alternative is text encryption Dec 31 03:00:17 encrypting SMS is moderately trivial Dec 31 03:00:17 u can have any form of data go across it Dec 31 03:00:29 right ? Dec 31 03:00:38 SpeedEvil: u'd need the other end also to handle a decryption too ala data-calls or voip Dec 31 03:00:46 oof course. Dec 31 03:00:48 how would you signal the other phone that somebody is calling it Dec 31 03:00:51 but it's somewhat easier. Dec 31 03:00:52 voidwalker: correct Dec 31 03:01:02 that is highly impractical... Dec 31 03:01:08 voidwalker: your only real solution is to have all the parties you talk to use the same technology as you Dec 31 03:01:13 and thats not easy Dec 31 03:01:19 to assure 100% coverage you would need it to be permanently with gprs on Dec 31 03:01:26 yup Dec 31 03:01:32 what u CAN do is use magic-sms's Dec 31 03:01:42 ie basically a binary encoded sms with a special instyruction Dec 31 03:01:51 raster, as i said, i am willing to buy a phone to all my friends if it works Dec 31 03:01:51 "wake up and connect to gprs" Dec 31 03:01:52 : )) Dec 31 03:02:07 oh i see, yeah Dec 31 03:02:08 and at that point the other end will wake up for the sms, see it, read it and connct to the net (for a limited time) Dec 31 03:02:11 and then voip will work Dec 31 03:02:16 i'd add a delay to any call Dec 31 03:02:17 and that hasn't even been implemented yet, just theory on our part Dec 31 03:02:17 but it'd work Dec 31 03:02:32 hasnt been implemented Dec 31 03:02:33 but can be Dec 31 03:02:47 ok so what else is a freerunner phone good for ? i was on the order page Dec 31 03:02:56 what neat little tricks/hacks can it do ? Dec 31 03:02:57 raster: that's what I did to mimic the RIM push mechanism Dec 31 03:03:07 i'm not a programmer, just an user Dec 31 03:03:38 ndnihil: yup. thats actuslly how these push mechanisms work Dec 31 03:03:45 magic-sms's for wakeup Dec 31 03:03:56 and then the phone/device "knows what to do" (poll for new stuff) Dec 31 03:04:12 voidwalker: u'll n3eed to become a programemr if uw ant to use a freerunenr sanely like u want Dec 31 03:05:14 no time for that, when i was younger i thought i would become one, but life has taken another course Dec 31 03:05:15 :) Dec 31 03:05:22 or shell out some cash to a skilled ninja :) Dec 31 03:05:27 i wanna hack molecules, not bits Dec 31 03:05:28 hehe Dec 31 03:05:45 well then your other choice is to pay someone to make it happen for u Dec 31 03:05:55 might cost u a few thousand $ Dec 31 03:06:13 cheaper to use code words i guess Dec 31 03:06:14 :\ Dec 31 03:06:21 probably Dec 31 03:06:44 arent there any radio frequencies that are open to use by the public ? Dec 31 03:06:57 that depends on your local laws Dec 31 03:06:58 something that goes a long way (distance) Dec 31 03:07:05 there are Dec 31 03:07:07 no idea what romania has for frequency laws Dec 31 03:07:08 2.4ghz or so Dec 31 03:07:14 thats what wifi uses Dec 31 03:07:17 and cordless phones and... Dec 31 03:07:18 why doesnt anybody step up to make an open telecom network Dec 31 03:07:26 because it's not profitable Dec 31 03:07:32 fuck profit Dec 31 03:07:43 because no one has the money to build one Dec 31 03:07:46 it could have like local radio towers Dec 31 03:07:53 bulding one that is vaguely usable means billions of $ Dec 31 03:07:56 and they could all be linked to the internet Dec 31 03:07:57 just to get up and going Dec 31 03:08:02 voip Dec 31 03:08:02 how will u make that $ back? Dec 31 03:08:07 donations Dec 31 03:08:11 hah Dec 31 03:08:15 hehehe Dec 31 03:08:17 good luck Dec 31 03:08:18 good luck with that Dec 31 03:08:21 start one yourself Dec 31 03:08:22 i have $1 mil Dec 31 03:08:26 not barely enough Dec 31 03:08:30 set up a tower for the local "cell" to use Dec 31 03:08:37 1mil is nothing when you're talking about setting up a telecom company Dec 31 03:08:38 use a public open band Dec 31 03:08:40 they do exist Dec 31 03:08:42 i can tell u now Dec 31 03:08:52 u'll spend $10,000's (multiple) to get it set up Dec 31 03:09:00 and spend $1000's per year to just keep it running Dec 31 03:09:01 A tower? Dec 31 03:09:06 yes Dec 31 03:09:07 you mean an antenna Dec 31 03:09:09 for gsm Dec 31 03:09:11 yes Dec 31 03:09:14 well for anything Dec 31 03:09:41 something that has a good position that has enough view of an area to be able to transmit/recieve to and from devices withing "radio sight" Dec 31 03:09:47 eg on top of a hill or a building etc. Dec 31 03:09:47 oh well, if every rich person in a city would invest in that Dec 31 03:09:55 good luck Dec 31 03:10:01 i wouldnt - its a waste of money Dec 31 03:10:19 i have better things to do with my money - that actually i enjoy, or that make money. Dec 31 03:10:19 it wouldnt be as reliable as payed networks, but it would be free Dec 31 03:10:27 this is just a good way to throw money away Dec 31 03:10:37 hehehe no chance Dec 31 03:10:38 yeah but, fucking the system is more important than money Dec 31 03:10:40 and thats just 1 tower Dec 31 03:10:50 something like a joint project Dec 31 03:10:52 the telcos u hate have 1000's and 1000's of them Dec 31 03:10:57 like they did with the shared wireless access points Dec 31 03:11:05 and they are inter-connected and work Dec 31 03:11:18 iirc, optus claimed the value of their hardware in ~2005 was at $20million AU Dec 31 03:11:30 and thats without the telstra infrstructure they piggyback a lot of the time. Dec 31 03:11:45 and u pay a small amount every month to them for that existing workign network Dec 31 03:12:00 small compared to the $10,000's and $1000's per year to build/run a tower Dec 31 03:12:20 Kamping_Kaiser: 20mil? Dec 31 03:12:29 dont u mean billion? Dec 31 03:12:48 i think u dropped 3 zeros :) Dec 31 03:13:06 raster: possable, its a while since i looked up that particular stat :) Dec 31 03:13:30 i don't get it why won't this work Dec 31 03:13:37 there are lots of rich people everywhere Dec 31 03:13:49 set up a tower, not necesarily gsm standard, but something else Dec 31 03:14:05 connect it to the net, and have a central mainframe connecting calls over voip Dec 31 03:14:06 and those people are rich because they dont throw money away on stupid things like this :) Dec 31 03:14:07 gsm or not Dec 31 03:14:08 you know why they are rich? they don't spend their money on silly projects ;) Dec 31 03:14:10 it costs a lot Dec 31 03:14:11 oh snap. Dec 31 03:14:13 and its a money-sink Dec 31 03:14:23 voidwalker: if not gsm then what? Dec 31 03:14:25 Kamping_Kaiser: hehehehe Dec 31 03:14:31 voidwalker: you can't setup a telco using ISM band gear Dec 31 03:14:32 Kamping_Kaiser: maybe wifi Dec 31 03:14:39 wimax possibly Dec 31 03:14:42 (wibro) Dec 31 03:14:48 doesnt much matter Dec 31 03:14:56 it has to be non-licensed/patented Dec 31 03:15:01 so you can use it for free Dec 31 03:15:11 wifif is non-licensed Dec 31 03:15:19 any technology worth using it patented Dec 31 03:15:19 but short range Dec 31 03:15:27 wimax is long-range Dec 31 03:15:50 but you can't use that without paying right ? Dec 31 03:16:13 ACMA have rules blocking the use of ISM bands for commercial communications purposes Dec 31 03:16:19 u need to pay for the transmitters and hw Dec 31 03:17:00 and it has to be high power gear, no mater what band. Dec 31 03:18:07 Kamping_Kaiser: sure Dec 31 03:18:18 wimax i think tho is unlicensed and u dont need one Dec 31 03:18:23 u just need t6o pay for all the tower setups Dec 31 03:18:39 interconnects between towers and up to the rest of the net Dec 31 03:18:45 and that shit costs lots of $ Dec 31 03:18:50 thus my $10k+ range Dec 31 03:18:55 interesting. i've never looked into wimax Dec 31 03:20:42 http://www.wimax360.com/forum/topic/show?id=610217%3ATopic%3A63798 Dec 31 03:20:42 there we go Dec 31 03:20:50 I would say a good average is $15k for a base station and $500 for the CPE Dec 31 03:20:53 $15k Dec 31 03:21:07 for a wimax bast station Dec 31 03:21:26 pthat liekly doesnt include cost of power, land it sits on (u have to buy/rent the land or rooftop on building etc.) Dec 31 03:21:32 cost of maintenance Dec 31 03:21:41 (when shit breaks) Dec 31 03:22:02 as such a single wimax tower has range to cover several km range Dec 31 03:22:07 tho the more people on it the slower it gets Dec 31 03:22:17 so u need to pay for more tranciever units Dec 31 03:24:01 also rememebr wimax is a "there now" tech Dec 31 03:24:09 LTE is what telcose are moving to for cellulare networks Dec 31 03:25:41 and lte an all-packet/ip based cellular network, is looking pretty nice in terms of speed, and probably support from telcos, etc. Dec 31 04:20:19 we have a little guy in town that setup a slackware system an started setting up towers to cover a wireless internet access buisness an that didnt cots billions of dollars Dec 31 04:20:46 #cough Cost# Dec 31 04:21:32 thats not across a whole country Dec 31 04:21:40 thats a few locations around a city Dec 31 04:21:44 easy enough to do Dec 31 04:21:54 and if only with wifi those spots are very small and ... spotty Dec 31 04:22:09 u want to cover enough area like a mobile phone network - u will spend billions Dec 31 04:23:07 an investors expect a return Dec 31 04:23:27 yup Dec 31 04:23:39 no one is going to spend that kind of money and just give serivce away for free Dec 31 04:23:49 in the end all u do is replace one telco with another Dec 31 04:23:55 and in the end the aim will be to make a profit Dec 31 04:24:20 open source energy would really piss a lot of people off an save the world at the same time Dec 31 04:24:30 yup Dec 31 04:24:53 thats what i want some open source energy Dec 31 04:25:17 well u caqn get your own Dec 31 04:25:20 solar panels are a start Dec 31 04:25:24 wind turbines Dec 31 04:25:25 etc. Dec 31 04:25:27 static Dec 31 04:26:14 open source isnt something u can apply to a commodity Dec 31 04:26:19 data trandfer is a commodity Dec 31 04:26:23 as is energy Dec 31 04:26:44 as long as its delivered to you and can be measured... Dec 31 04:26:53 open source is about sharing information and ideas Dec 31 04:27:03 it doesnt apply to energy, beer, etc. Dec 31 04:27:05 maybe energy also Dec 31 04:27:21 source code is (almost) free to duplicate Dec 31 04:27:23 its just information Dec 31 04:27:55 energy cant be duplicated for free Dec 31 04:27:58 it can be generated Dec 31 04:28:05 harnessed Dec 31 04:28:16 directed Dec 31 04:28:25 but it costs a lot of $ to create the equiopment to harness/generate it Dec 31 04:28:30 unlike software Dec 31 04:28:36 so u cant apply the same principles Dec 31 04:31:56 thats kinda my point . the things we use to harness these things we get energy from require mechanical things to work Dec 31 04:32:18 and then the energy u harness is finite Dec 31 04:32:21 unlike source Dec 31 04:32:22 =maintenance Dec 31 04:32:26 u cant duplicate for free Dec 31 04:32:39 u produce 1 watt of power from solar or from hydro or wind Dec 31 04:32:43 doesnt much matter - its 1 watt Dec 31 04:32:48 u give that away - u dont have it anymore Dec 31 04:32:54 source is not the same Dec 31 04:32:55 its information Dec 31 04:34:45 even if u look at it this way - it will keep generating power from (lets say the sun) all day every day Dec 31 04:34:48 as long as there is sun Dec 31 04:35:04 thats a real problem Dec 31 04:35:09 and once the initial cost of buying the solar panel and setup is paid - the cost is "almost free" (beyond maintenance) Dec 31 04:35:13 it STILL is a finite resource Dec 31 04:35:22 that panel generates N watt hourse of power per day/year Dec 31 04:35:34 and when u give it to someone - u dont have the thing u gave Dec 31 04:35:35 its gone Dec 31 04:35:50 its a commodity like oil, or corn, or water. Dec 31 04:36:07 source is not. information is not. stories are not Dec 31 04:36:13 (as in books) Dec 31 04:36:15 but static is very different Dec 31 04:36:23 once the initial cost of creation is paid for Dec 31 04:36:32 it can be duplicated and distributed for "almost" free Dec 31 04:36:46 and making another copy doesnt mean you lost the original Dec 31 04:37:46 u means static and in static electricity? Dec 31 04:40:09 yes Dec 31 04:40:17 very simple Dec 31 04:40:23 thats just the transfer of electrons from one place to another Dec 31 04:40:30 thsu creating a differential of charge Dec 31 04:40:48 no different Dec 31 04:40:53 that difference in charge is stored energy Dec 31 04:40:56 and that is finite Dec 31 04:40:59 like any energy Dec 31 04:41:04 u give ti away - u lost it Dec 31 04:41:07 u need to re-generate it Dec 31 04:41:20 and generating it is a finite activity Dec 31 04:41:25 like any other energy Dec 31 04:41:31 its just another energy storage mechanism Dec 31 04:41:45 but generation of it is just the same Dec 31 04:42:15 yes but theres lots of static not being hasnessed right now Dec 31 04:42:31 doesnt matter Dec 31 04:42:34 still is finite Dec 31 04:42:37 its here but not being used Dec 31 04:42:49 still is completely unlike source code so u cant apply open source philosophy to a commodity Dec 31 04:43:08 theres not a limited # of static Dec 31 04:43:17 and thats the same for sunlight (solar power), wind, wave and many other forms of energy Dec 31 04:43:27 there is a limited amount Dec 31 04:43:31 by its sheer nature Dec 31 04:43:54 u have static electricity (enegry) stored on your body by rubbing your feet on the floor Dec 31 04:44:07 (given the right substances to generate the static charge) Dec 31 04:44:15 wear a plastic coat an charge your moko Dec 31 04:44:21 that is dispersed on contact to a grounding material Dec 31 04:44:24 and it is no more Dec 31 04:44:29 i'ts gopne until its re-generated Dec 31 04:44:44 sure Dec 31 04:44:49 doesnt matter if its that Dec 31 04:44:50 or sunlight Dec 31 04:44:53 or wind or whatever Dec 31 04:44:56 it is FINITE Dec 31 04:45:00 u generate it by walking Dec 31 04:45:04 (lets say) Dec 31 04:45:08 sur e- u have charge. Dec 31 04:45:13 once you USE that charge Dec 31 04:45:14 it's gone Dec 31 04:45:17 until u walk again Dec 31 04:45:23 there is a cost of generating it Dec 31 04:45:34 and it cant be duplicated for free Dec 31 04:45:41 u cant apply open source to finite commodities Dec 31 04:45:55 its a different set of rules as its a fundamentally different thing Dec 31 04:46:11 source os free to duplicate - no loss. energy is not. Dec 31 04:46:56 we had a walmart that alwaes static shocked us just by walking a few feet an then one day they fixed it so what they do just ground the static out but what they should do is wire it up an save it Dec 31 04:46:58 (i'm being loose woith free here for src - sure there is a cost. the media to store it or the transfer of the source over a network uses a medium which costs $ to build and maintain - but its cheap enough to be "free") Dec 31 04:47:15 sure Dec 31 04:47:23 but thats entirely separate to open source Dec 31 04:47:33 you are just discussing another energy generation mechanism Dec 31 04:48:21 the question is... is it viable to bother capturing and storing it Dec 31 04:48:24 that - i dont know Dec 31 04:49:03 the idea/invention is what should be open source so that men cannot capitalize on it , therefore helping the people instead of those greedy old rich Bastards Dec 31 04:49:54 sound like an anarchist,,,,, really im not Dec 31 05:09:41 slaxxer: that is so not what open source is abot Dec 31 05:09:43 totally not Dec 31 05:09:52 i suggest you do some good reading up on it Dec 31 05:10:08 open osurce is NOT about preventing people from capitalising on something Dec 31 05:10:09 totally not Dec 31 05:10:37 read up repeated statements from stallman and many other oss "leaders" about how gpl and commercial intrerests are not incompatible Dec 31 05:10:55 also how there is nothng wronmg with making money and SELLING gpl apps Dec 31 05:11:16 this image of "being anti-money" is a free-love-hippy movement nothing to do with open source Dec 31 05:11:23 it's just hitched a ride on the open source bandwagon Dec 31 05:11:42 open source is about empowering your users. your customers to be able to help themselves - if they want to Dec 31 05:11:45 (and can) Dec 31 05:12:09 if you have a bug - not to have to wait for you to get around to fixing it for them when they are perfectly capable of doing it themselves.. *IF* they have the source Dec 31 05:12:37 and in addition allowing them to share their changes, fixes, etc. with others Dec 31 05:12:51 so others sufferign from the same issue can have it fixed too if 1 person fixes it for themselves Dec 31 05:13:06 it is totally NOT about "men cannot capitalize on it" Dec 31 05:13:33 and spreading such an image ias just the right thing to make sure companies will not support open source Dec 31 05:13:40 in fact will run screaming from it if that is what they hear Dec 31 05:14:02 u can kiss goodbye to linux pwoered phones and god knows what else if thats the image you send out of open osurce Dec 31 05:14:17 i'd not argue if it was totally untrue what you say Dec 31 05:14:39 and all that does it give open source a bad image and remove support for it from the peolpe who make the hardware you rely on Dec 31 05:14:50 Dec 31 06:17:44 raster: and yet Stallman doesn't have much money himself. And he never actively supported capitalism or consumerism afaik. Dec 31 06:18:08 raster: he just says that free software per se is not incompatible with making money. Dec 31 06:18:35 raster: but so is free-love-hippie ideas when you make some nice toys and sell them away to make enough for a living. Dec 31 06:19:24 raster: the mere fact the term "open source" surfaced is that "free software" sounds too good to be acceptable by the bastards. Dec 31 06:20:48 Science is (probably unfortunately) not incompatible with capitalising too. But an "ideal" scientist is the one seeking for "truth" not for money. Dec 31 06:21:02 You'll say he can't seek truth without money. But i'm talking about the motivation here. Dec 31 06:21:36 That you need 10^x $'s to invest to build any modern collider or to buy microscope etc etc. Dec 31 06:21:39 True. Dec 31 06:22:25 But an "ideal scientist" would follow either "i want to know that no matter what" or "i want to know that if it doesn't harm humans in general". Dec 31 06:23:22 The first type are sick fanatics. The second type are the best scientists like e.g. Einstein or Sakharov. Dec 31 06:24:28 You just said it yourself that free software is about sharing ideas and information which (sharing) is essentially free. That notion of sharing knowledge comes from science, imho. Dec 31 06:25:46 Come on, free software movement always had connotations with "hacking together having fun fighting for freedom". Dec 31 06:29:25 You take your guitar and stand on a street singing songs. That way you can get enough money for a humble dinner. Singing songs is not incompatible with making money. But when you're honest and frank, money can't be the main reason to sing. You'll sing the same song for your friends for free. That's how it works. Dec 31 06:31:03 It's about the same thing i'd say. Just some people are better at programming than the singing. Dec 31 06:34:06 raster: so to me your statement that "free-love-hippies" "hitching a ride" seems to be false in general and in every detail. Free software started like that, it's those ideals hiding behind the legalese of the free software licensees. Dec 31 07:18:23 i agree with PaulFertser Dec 31 07:20:02 slaxxer: real anarchists wouldn't use copyright Dec 31 07:20:21 or at least, wouldn't use the GPL Dec 31 07:20:28 BSD is practically anarchist Dec 31 07:24:04 PaulFertser: the idea that everytthing should be given away for free and calling it the "open source ideal" is utterly false Dec 31 07:24:14 open source isnt about giving away for free Dec 31 07:24:23 its about giving access to the thing u have sold OR given away Dec 31 07:24:25 not restricting it Dec 31 07:25:19 oh, and I don't get Stallman's support for Monty of Mysql. It makes no sense. He's supporting them keeping a closed version.... Dec 31 07:25:19 in the context that propted that - that rich people should just spend 10,000's of dollars and built network towers and pay for uplink access and give it all away for free... that has nothing to do with open source ideals Dec 31 07:25:29 same for electricity/power as the thnig transmuted into Dec 31 07:25:31 I get why, but it's still a closed version Dec 31 07:25:38 it is a finite resource that once given away - is lost Dec 31 07:25:40 unlike source code Dec 31 07:25:52 raster: programmer time is not finite Dec 31 07:26:13 doc|home: scroll back as to what i said Dec 31 07:26:15 * doc|home zZzZz Dec 31 07:26:22 erk, too late for me :( sorry Dec 31 07:26:30 have to be up in too-few hours Dec 31 07:27:36 well i did say once the cost of creating it is over - distribution is essentially free Dec 31 07:27:45 programemr time *IS* a finite resource Dec 31 07:27:47 and is not cheap Dec 31 07:28:01 as those able to write (good) code are generally educated and/or smart Dec 31 07:28:06 and that costs time and money to get there Dec 31 07:28:16 and those individuals have skills that are valuable and come at a price Dec 31 07:28:26 ie they can be paid $200/hr to do somehting Dec 31 07:28:35 or get paid $0/hr and give it away for free as open source Dec 31 07:28:40 guess which they'd pick? Dec 31 07:28:44 :) Dec 31 07:28:45 oh, and, one last thing. If you eliminate pay from it.... Dec 31 07:28:46 gah Dec 31 07:28:48 you just said it Dec 31 07:28:58 money is how resources are allocated Dec 31 07:29:06 remove the money, the world falls apart Dec 31 07:29:50 indeed Dec 31 07:29:52 it wouldn't fall apart Dec 31 07:29:55 it is how something is valued Dec 31 07:30:01 gonzoism: sure it would Dec 31 07:30:11 gonzoism: how else do you know what's in demand? Dec 31 07:30:16 anhow much u get paid is what someone is WILLING to pay for you Dec 31 07:30:18 gonzoism: that's what prices dictate Dec 31 07:30:21 (your time and effort and skills) Dec 31 07:30:23 same for goods Dec 31 07:30:27 gonzoism: high demand = high prices Dec 31 07:30:30 the price of oil or milk Dec 31 07:30:46 or for that mattare the price per minute of a call or per mb of data on a network Dec 31 07:30:50 well, in fairness, a fair chunk of the price of oil is the politician's take :/ Dec 31 07:30:50 high demand should = low prices Dec 31 07:30:55 its a price which is "willing to be paid for" Dec 31 07:31:05 gonzoism: if it's low prices, why would anyone produce it? Dec 31 07:31:07 willing to be paid for i can agree with Dec 31 07:31:20 gonzoism: well, supply is of course a factor Dec 31 07:31:21 if it wanst - it wouldnt be sold and thus eithe r go unsold (and revenue unrealised) or, it'd drop in price until it matches what is wiling to be paid for it Dec 31 07:31:32 because low prices for something high in demand pay off for large scale demand. Dec 31 07:31:33 raster: bingo Dec 31 07:31:44 gonzoism: if that was the case, ferraris would be free Dec 31 07:31:48 so in the end the price u pay is a general "what it is worth" price in your area Dec 31 07:31:52 simple as that Dec 31 07:32:00 even if u have just a single telco Dec 31 07:32:05 * doc|home gone Dec 31 07:32:11 data prices woudl drop until they sell enough data to make it worth their while Dec 31 07:32:12 there isn't a lot of demand for ferraris. its demand is kept artificially inflated. Dec 31 07:32:23 gonzoism: sure there is Dec 31 07:32:27 gonzoism: doesnt matter how its done Dec 31 07:32:32 thats the name of the game Dec 31 07:32:38 ferrari play the game differently Dec 31 07:32:50 create an image of high value and demand and thus be ABLE to charge a high price Dec 31 07:32:51 its playing with more than supply and demand. Dec 31 07:32:51 part of the appeal of a ferrari is the fact that it's "rare" Dec 31 07:32:57 the other end of the scale is that of volume Dec 31 07:33:13 creating an image of high value is different than demand. Dec 31 07:33:13 ie make it available to everyone so the # of buyers is huge Dec 31 07:33:14 not to mention they generally have great engineering Dec 31 07:33:20 but that will only happen if the price comes down Dec 31 07:34:45 the problem with tthe capitalist model is not the price for something Dec 31 07:34:52 its when someone gives it away for $0 Dec 31 07:34:58 thats when the model begins to break down Dec 31 07:35:19 (and mostly when that is done its give away something in hope of making big bucks back on somethnig else related to it) Dec 31 07:35:28 more like when our idea of the model breaks down Dec 31 07:35:39 u have nullified the economics of the thing u are giving away and that really messes with the system Dec 31 07:36:03 diversified the economics of the thing you are giving away Dec 31 07:36:08 mind u its also a matter of having to adapt when that happens Dec 31 07:36:45 yes. the adaption is the whole idea of capitalism, i believe. Dec 31 07:36:53 ok.. nyw time Dec 31 07:36:58 nye Dec 31 07:37:00 *poof* Dec 31 07:37:05 nye ? Dec 31 07:39:23 i think you might have just disappeared in a poof of smoke. Dec 31 07:39:30 maybe Dec 31 07:40:24 there's no problem with it being given away - it just means it's a commodity that's not really worth pricing on its own Dec 31 07:43:38 or the price to give it away will be made another way. like iphones and contracts. Dec 31 07:43:54