**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Thu Jan 07 02:59:56 2010
Jan 07 11:20:14 <alabd> Hello , Is there anyway to make fr not using battery power while usb is connected ?
Jan 07 11:20:59 <SpeedEvil> It won't use battery power if there is adequate USB power available.
Jan 07 11:22:08 <alabd> SpeedEvil:  hi how are you even when gsm is on  ?
Jan 07 11:22:36 <lindi-> alabd: GSM will always use battery.
Jan 07 11:22:50 <lindi-> alabd: turn GSM off if you do not want to use battery
Jan 07 11:24:24 <alabd> lindi-:  So howto make fr not using battery while gsm is on ?
Jan 07 11:25:50 <lindi-> alabd: impossible
Jan 07 11:28:28 <SpeedEvil> The GSM is directly connected to the battery.
Jan 07 11:28:52 <SpeedEvil> The battery will usually be charged to maintain its charge level.
Jan 07 11:33:12 <DocScrutinizer51> yep, exactly
Jan 07 11:33:33 <DocScrutinizer51> see wiki 'battery faq' (or similar topic)
Jan 07 11:35:12 <DocScrutinizer51> alabd: if you want to operate FR without battery you need a stabilized hard power supply of 4.0V@3A and connect that to the battery terminals
Jan 07 11:35:50 <SpeedEvil> 3.3V would be below minimum I assume?
Jan 07 11:35:56 <DocScrutinizer51> or make that 1A and a huuuge buffer C
Jan 07 11:36:19 <DocScrutinizer51> gms low is 3.6 iirc
Jan 07 11:36:58 <DocScrutinizer51> so would work for system but probably not for modem
Jan 07 11:39:29 <lindi-> DocScrutinizer51: I only yesterday learned that one can keep battery charge at 50% even when system is connected via USB :)
Jan 07 11:40:14 <DocScrutinizer51> huh?
Jan 07 11:40:30 <alabd> while usb is connected to fr and gsm is on if we turn gsm off will it Automatically ?
Jan 07 11:40:54 <DocScrutinizer51> sure you could, by manually enabling and stopping the MBC
Jan 07 11:41:06 <lindi-> DocScrutinizer51: but i did not know the commands to do that
Jan 07 11:41:16 <alabd> lindi-: "om usb charger-mode [charge-battery|power-usb]" 
Jan 07 11:41:23 <alabd> ?
Jan 07 11:41:26 <lindi-> alabd: automatically what?
Jan 07 11:41:34 <DocScrutinizer51> lindi-: it's absoöute nonsense anyway
Jan 07 11:42:10 <alabd> lindi-:  will it automatically use usb power ?
Jan 07 11:42:33 <SpeedEvil> The GSM is directly connected to the battery.
Jan 07 11:42:41 <SpeedEvil> In no way can it use USB power, ever.
Jan 07 11:42:51 <DocScrutinizer51> alabd: usb is used to keep system powered asnd battery charged whenever present
Jan 07 11:42:52 <SpeedEvil> The battery can immediately be recharged.
Jan 07 11:43:58 <DocScrutinizer51> if your name is not lindi- then your battery is always between 70 and 100 percent automatically
Jan 07 11:44:37 <DocScrutinizer51> as long as usb power available
Jan 07 11:44:37 <Defiant> lol?
Jan 07 11:45:02 <DocScrutinizer51> Defiant: huh??
Jan 07 11:45:39 <Defiant> DocScrutinizer51: refering to the "name is not" part...
Jan 07 11:45:47 <lindi-> DocScrutinizer51: but for long storage I can put it to 40%
Jan 07 11:46:36 <DocScrutinizer51> lindi-: not recommended. Afaik LiIon stores best at 75%
Jan 07 11:46:45 <lindi-> DocScrutinizer51: the papers i read say 40%
Jan 07 11:47:58 <lindi-> DocScrutinizer51: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium-ion_polymer_battery#Storage says 40% currently too
Jan 07 11:48:02 <alabd> So we can be sure that battery after being 100% charged will not be chargd with usb continuesly
Jan 07 11:48:24 <lindi-> alabd: you can be sure only by disabling charging :)
Jan 07 11:48:28 <DocScrutinizer51> alabd: exactly
Jan 07 11:48:40 <DocScrutinizer51> lindi-: nope!!!!
Jan 07 11:48:41 <lindi-> alabd: however, it is not a good idea to keep the battery at 100% for long periods of time
Jan 07 11:48:54 <DocScrutinizer51> that's done automatically
Jan 07 11:49:08 <DocScrutinizer51> DO NOT MESS WITH MAIN BATTERY CHARGER
Jan 07 11:49:24 <alabd> lindi-:  DocScrutinizer51 dont bother beginner :D
Jan 07 11:49:40 <alabd> see fr is connected to usb 
Jan 07 11:49:43 <alabd> gsm is off 
Jan 07 11:50:00 <alabd> for example battery has 90% charge
Jan 07 11:50:24 <alabd> usb will charge battery until 100% 
Jan 07 11:50:35 <alabd> then 2 mode can be 
Jan 07 11:50:51 <alabd> 1 -  we didable usb , again battery will be discharged ... 
Jan 07 11:51:23 <alabd> 2 - usb be connected to fr  is this mode will usb charge battery after 100% (GSM IS OFF)
Jan 07 11:51:52 <lindi-> alabd: charger will stop at 100%
Jan 07 11:52:34 <alabd> lindi-: if it stops will it again charge battery in 99% ?
Jan 07 11:53:32 <lindi-> alabd: no in around 80%
Jan 07 11:55:22 <alabd> ok again it will charge until 100% 
Jan 07 11:55:36 <alabd> does not this make battery life decrease?
Jan 07 11:56:59 <lindi-> alabd: compared to what?
Jan 07 11:58:55 <alabd> humble ask
Jan 07 11:59:54 <alabd> and are you sure charger will not charge battery in 100% ? and will stop ? cause some companies remove that protector circuit to decrease prices
Jan 07 12:00:55 <lindi-> alabd: you can measure battery current :)
Jan 07 12:01:13 <lindi-> alabd: "om battery consumption"
Jan 07 12:01:40 <alabd> root@om-gta02 ~ $ om battery consumption
Jan 07 12:01:41 <alabd> -sh: om: not found
Jan 07 12:03:39 <lindi-> alabd: it's part of http://git.debian.org/?p=pkg-fso/omhacks.git;a=summary which is in debian
Jan 07 12:03:55 <alabd> oh SHR ?
Jan 07 12:04:01 <DocScrutinizer51> alabd: lindi- constantly tries to sell his proprietary stuff to users ;-)
Jan 07 12:04:35 <DocScrutinizer51> alabd: you have bnq27k-detail
Jan 07 12:04:47 <alabd> yes 
Jan 07 12:04:50 <alabd> so ?
Jan 07 12:04:52 <DocScrutinizer51> alabd: you won't get more info any other way
Jan 07 12:05:28 <alabd> no how to be sure  charger will not charge battery in 100% ? and will stop ? cause some companies remove that protector circuit to decrease prices
Jan 07 12:05:40 <alabd> that was question 
Jan 07 12:06:29 <alabd> lindi-:  DocScrutinizer51 how to om battery consumption on SHR ?
Jan 07 12:06:40 <DocScrutinizer51> alabd: the MBC in PMU defaults to sane settings. So as long as you don't mess with those PMU registers you're absolutely safe
Jan 07 12:07:10 <lindi-> DocScrutinizer51: beware, we'll provide an API for bq27k-detail soon :)
Jan 07 12:07:24 <DocScrutinizer51> alabd: use bq27k-detail instead of om foo
Jan 07 12:08:08 <lindi-> DocScrutinizer51: well the thing is that i don't remember the dbus paths for measuring battery consumption and i don't remember the url of bq27k-detail by heart either :)
Jan 07 12:09:07 <DocScrutinizer51> the second one is easy.  people.openmoko.org/joerg/battery/*
Jan 07 12:09:41 <alabd> DocScrutinizer51: ok has been run in which psrt of script result we can see battery consum
Jan 07 12:09:57 <alabd> consumption*
Jan 07 12:10:11 <DocScrutinizer51> current_now?
Jan 07 12:11:22 <DocScrutinizer51> there's at least 3 different values
Jan 07 12:12:45 <DocScrutinizer51> depending on whether you want to get predicted duration to empty, or Ampere or Watt consumption. Then there are same values for standby current, for maximum and for dunno waht else
Jan 07 12:13:12 <DocScrutinizer51> alabd: just read the output and try to undersstand the words written there
Jan 07 12:13:53 <DocScrutinizer51> if that doesn't hep then read the bq27000 datasheet which has additional info on each value
Jan 07 12:14:11 <alabd> DocScrutinizer51: see now fr is connected to usb and is 100% and script is run 
Jan 07 12:15:10 <alabd> at all does that script shows battery consuption in each time DocScrutinizer51?
Jan 07 12:15:24 <DocScrutinizer51> yes
Jan 07 12:16:24 <DocScrutinizer51> *_now is the avg of last ~25 sec
Jan 07 12:16:57 <DocScrutinizer51> or was it 5sec
Jan 07 12:17:09 <DocScrutinizer51> please just read the datasheet
Jan 07 12:17:25 <alabd> where is datasheeet
Jan 07 12:17:34 <alabd> there is no such _now in result 
Jan 07 12:17:34 <DocScrutinizer51> the script was intended as a suplementary tool for datasheet study
Jan 07 12:18:16 * DocScrutinizer51  away for lunch
Jan 07 12:25:39 <alabd> lindi-: have you read this ? http://people.openmoko.org/joerg/battery/batlog.txt.odf how did him/her do that ?
Jan 07 13:24:46 <alabd> DocScrutinizer51:  lindi- we see here http://people.openmoko.org/joerg/battery/batlog.txt.odf 
Jan 07 13:25:05 <alabd> it does not stop charging at 100% ABOUT 44 MINUTES
Jan 07 13:25:22 <alabd> it's bad for battery life 
Jan 07 13:26:04 <DocScrutinizer51> alabd: nonsense
Jan 07 13:26:40 <alabd> DocScrutinizer51:  what is noosense ?
Jan 07 13:27:04 <SpeedEvil> alabd: it needs to do that to top off a li-ion battery.
Jan 07 13:28:12 <DocScrutinizer51> charging stops when I-chg goes below charge threshold (which is 24mA iirc). What CC thinks when 100% are reached is a totally different story largely *unrelated* to cell chemistry
Jan 07 13:28:25 <alabd> but some li ion battery companies remove charge control circuit to sell more battery , someone said
Jan 07 13:28:47 <alabd> and where is datasheteet do you mean this ? this is about 1 or 2 page not including those info  http://people.openmoko.org/joerg/battery/PACK950925.pdf
Jan 07 13:29:00 <DocScrutinizer51> alabd: so what??
Jan 07 13:29:27 <alabd> that is datasheet you mentioned ?
Jan 07 13:29:39 <DocScrutinizer51> no I mean the bq2700 datasheet
Jan 07 13:30:37 <DocScrutinizer51> alabd: btw there's no (and never been) and charge *control* chip inside battrey
Jan 07 13:30:50 <DocScrutinizer51> this is MBC which is inside PMU
Jan 07 13:31:40 <DocScrutinizer51> aka PCF50633
Jan 07 13:32:34 <alabd> MBC = http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boost_controller ? DocScrutinizer51
Jan 07 13:33:27 <alabd> DocScrutinizer51: SpeedEvil how to make battery life more ? 
Jan 07 13:34:16 <DocScrutinizer51> oops sorry disconnect
Jan 07 13:34:23 <alabd> is it better to battery be discharged to which percent 
Jan 07 13:34:23 <DocScrutinizer51> no I mean the bq2700 datasheet
Jan 07 13:34:30 <DocScrutinizer51> alabd: btw there's no (and never been) and charge *control* chip inside battrey
Jan 07 13:34:34 <DocScrutinizer51> this is MBC which is inside PMU
Jan 07 13:34:38 <DocScrutinizer51> aka PCF50633
Jan 07 13:34:40 <DocScrutinizer51> we're talking about BQ27000 Coloumb Counter (battery monitoring) chip here. *This* chip in fact is inside GTA02 battery. Not inside GTSA01/Nokia BL-456C though
Jan 07 13:36:14 <DocScrutinizer51> MBC doesn't need this bq27k to treat LiIon cells nicely
Jan 07 13:37:10 <DocScrutinizer51> as I said before it defaults to sane setings and you're completely safe with any type of LiIon fitting into freerunner
Jan 07 13:37:45 <DocScrutinizer51> please read PCF50633 datasheet. MBC section to get how things work
Jan 07 13:37:47 <alabd> at which percent of charge , is better battery  be charged ? 
Jan 07 13:38:27 <DocScrutinizer51> LiIon is charged witg constant voltage to a usual 4.2V
Jan 07 13:38:41 <DocScrutinizer51> ...in final charge stage
Jan 07 13:39:07 <DocScrutinizer51> you mustn't exceed something like 4.3V
Jan 07 13:39:12 <alabd> DocScrutinizer51:  no just humble want to know how to make fr GTA02 battery life more
Jan 07 13:40:31 <alabd> at which percent of charge , is better battery be charged ? 80% 70% 30% 10% ?
Jan 07 13:40:32 <DocScrutinizer51> leave bat treatment to MBC inside PCF50633. Don't listen to lindi- ;-)  #9"mt use ancient andy-tracking kernels which did nasty to MBC + cell
Jan 07 13:40:49 <DocScrutinizer51> err
Jan 07 13:41:21 <DocScrutinizer51> store at 40..75% at 10..15C
Jan 07 13:41:43 <alabd> no store
Jan 07 13:41:52 <alabd> while it is used meant
Jan 07 13:41:56 <DocScrutinizer51> keep cycles low' avoid deep discharge for normal usage
Jan 07 13:42:40 <alabd> for example 
Jan 07 13:43:00 <alabd> now batter charge is 90 % ok we connect it ti usb gsm is off 
Jan 07 13:43:05 <DocScrutinizer51> keeping bat between 75 and 100 percent all the time but not at 100percent all the time seems very healthy for LiIon
Jan 07 13:43:27 <alabd> so first it will charge to 100% ?
Jan 07 13:43:34 <DocScrutinizer51> yesw
Jan 07 13:43:44 <alabd> ok it goes up to 100% 
Jan 07 13:43:52 <alabd> usb is connected yet 
Jan 07 13:43:57 <DocScrutinizer51> then it will drain to approx 75 and restart charging
Jan 07 13:44:00 <alabd> it remains at 100% 44 min 
Jan 07 13:44:31 <alabd> no until usb is connected it will not go down from 100% will it ?
Jan 07 13:44:42 <DocScrutinizer51> it will
Jan 07 13:44:48 <DocScrutinizer51> to 75
Jan 07 13:46:54 <DocScrutinizer51> alabd: PLEASEmread the wiki battery FAQ. Me and Paul prepared them for good reason
Jan 07 13:47:11 <alabd> wich page exactly ?
Jan 07 13:47:28 <DocScrutinizer51> virtually all your quewtions so far are answered there
Jan 07 13:47:41 <DocScrutinizer51> *sigh*
Jan 07 13:48:07 <DocScrutinizer51> PaulFertser: can you help me out with actual URL?
Jan 07 13:49:59 <alabd> PaulFertser:  has gone around 
Jan 07 13:50:06 <alabd> there are some pages
Jan 07 13:50:27 <SpeedEvil> http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo_FreeRunner_%28GTA02%29_Battery
Jan 07 13:50:30 <SpeedEvil> ?
Jan 07 13:50:54 <alabd> this ? DocScrutinizer51 
Jan 07 13:51:25 <DocScrutinizer51> http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Battery_Questions_and_Answers
Jan 07 13:52:07 <alabd> thanks 
Jan 07 13:54:39 <alabd> so at all anyone can not stand on 100% as you say it will decrease to 75% and then charged enables yeah ;))
Jan 07 14:08:53 <DocScrutinizer51> ~batteryFAQ is http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Battery_Questions_and_Answers
Jan 07 14:08:54 <infobot> okay, DocScrutinizer51
Jan 07 14:10:08 <DocScrutinizer51> ~batteryfaq
Jan 07 14:10:09 <infobot> i guess batteryfaq is http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Battery_Questions_and_Answers
Jan 07 16:13:11 <JaMa> is there remoko author or some remoko user with some bitbake knowledge?
Jan 07 16:18:04 <alabd> hello 
Jan 07 16:18:38 <alabd> (05:12:05 PM) DocScrutinizer51: keeping bat between 75 and 100 percent all the time but not at 100percent all the time seems very healthy for LiIon
Jan 07 16:19:17 <alabd> at all can battery be 100% all time DocScrutinizer51?
Jan 07 16:22:03 <DocScrutinizer51> alabd: no, it usually can not as MBC takes care to avoid this
Jan 07 16:22:29 <DocScrutinizer51> ~tell alabd about batteryfaq
Jan 07 16:23:02 <alabd> told
Jan 07 17:39:51 <PBeck|mobile> hi
Jan 07 17:49:08 <alabd> hi
Jan 07 17:50:07 <alabd> How to use *.osm maps with tangogps or navit ?
Jan 07 17:52:39 <SpeedEvil> you can't use with tangogps
Jan 07 17:52:57 <SpeedEvil> well - you can - but you functionalyl can't - it involces a whole map renderer infrastructure
Jan 07 17:53:20 <SpeedEvil> navit IIRC preprocesses the files with an externam program
Jan 07 17:54:52 <alabd> SpeedEvil: you mean .bin files?
Jan 07 18:00:39 <SpeedEvil> yes
Jan 07 18:00:49 <SpeedEvil> i thinks o though I've never used navit
Jan 07 18:02:25 <alabd> SpeedEvil: what is the difference between *.osm and *.bin maps ?
Jan 07 18:02:55 <SpeedEvil> they are a different format
Jan 07 18:03:02 <SpeedEvil> thing gif and jpeg
Jan 07 18:03:14 <SpeedEvil> one is xml, one is a compressed map format
Jan 07 18:03:47 <alabd> ok so maps are the same 
Jan 07 18:04:01 <mjr> yes you had to convert to navit format with an external program last I checked (quite a while ago)
Jan 07 18:04:23 <alabd> mjr:  navit format ?
Jan 07 18:04:42 <mjr> well whatever it was it used natively
Jan 07 18:06:28 <SpeedEvil> the osm data has information on last editor of each node, ...
Jan 07 18:06:38 <SpeedEvil> which navit would never need
Jan 07 20:19:38 <FredF> hi all
Jan 07 20:58:25 <Blaztur> /join #
Jan 07 20:58:37 <Blaztur> woops
Jan 07 21:22:11 <UndrWater1> anyone using opimd dates in shr?
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Fri Jan 08 02:59:57 2010