**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Sun Feb 14 02:59:57 2010
Feb 14 03:59:12 <nOStahl> hi guys
Feb 14 03:59:18 <nOStahl> how's openmoko going
Feb 14 04:13:05 <slaxxer> why cant a toolchain be built for shr?
Feb 14 04:13:28 <slaxxer> progress
Feb 14 04:14:36 <nOStahl> how's gps nav on openmoko
Feb 14 04:15:21 <slaxxer> i broke mine so i dont know here  lately
Feb 14 04:15:53 <slaxxer> certainly not as user friendly as others
Feb 14 04:16:11 <nOStahl> im currently using an ipod touch as a skype phone as my sole phone
Feb 14 04:16:20 <nOStahl> looking at the openmoko right now to see if it would replace what i use the ipod touch for
Feb 14 04:16:55 <slaxxer> linux on the touch?
Feb 14 04:17:19 <nOStahl> just stock/jailbreaked
Feb 14 04:17:30 <nOStahl> i am a linux guy though
Feb 14 04:17:44 <slaxxer> moko  is a great start
Feb 14 04:18:20 <nOStahl> i dont need the gps for relying on the navigation i have a regular gps
Feb 14 04:18:26 <nOStahl> i'd like to use it for trace routing for geotaging my digital photo's and such
Feb 14 04:18:33 <nOStahl> also would like to use skype and such
Feb 14 04:18:44 <nOStahl> two main uses i have right there
Feb 14 04:21:11 <SpeedEvil> For geotagging it works.
Feb 14 04:21:19 <SpeedEvil> For skype - basically not.
Feb 14 04:21:26 <SpeedEvil> GPRS.
Feb 14 04:22:51 <nOStahl> no skype?
Feb 14 04:22:55 <nOStahl> ugg
Feb 14 04:33:35 <slaxxer> we need u to get that working
Feb 14 04:35:03 <nOStahl> :) i'll go sneak in skype hq and steal the floppy disk with all the source code... or maybe tape drive :)
Feb 14 04:37:56 <slaxxer> beardown
Feb 14 04:46:27 <slaxxer> so which Qi image is the one to use?
Feb 14 04:47:14 <slaxxer> or are we back to uboot?
Feb 14 04:48:43 * ndnihil installed OBP on his
Feb 14 04:49:01 <slaxxer> whats obp
Feb 14 04:49:17 <ndnihil> old sun bootloader
Feb 14 04:49:19 <ndnihil> I was joking
Feb 14 04:49:54 <slaxxer> :)
Feb 14 04:56:18 <DocScrutinizer> despite all the urban legends there's basically no massive advantages in Qi
Feb 14 04:57:16 <nOStahl> how is the keyboard response on the freerunner 
Feb 14 04:57:40 <nOStahl> i like to type pretty fast on other touchscreen keyboards but i've found some are not responsive at all compared to others
Feb 14 04:58:44 <slaxxer> moko is responcive but small
Feb 14 04:58:48 <slaxxer> s
Feb 14 04:58:49 <DocScrutinizer> well on FR you have coice of kbd to use. So I'd guess it depends on your personal preferences
Feb 14 04:58:58 <slaxxer> literki
Feb 14 05:00:21 <DocScrutinizer> literki in landscape should be large enough for fast typing
Feb 14 05:00:48 <DocScrutinizer> GPS is actually great meanwhile
Feb 14 05:00:52 <nOStahl> i write article's for my websites in free time on the ipod touch atm
Feb 14 05:01:09 <DocScrutinizer> you'll hate FR
Feb 14 05:01:22 <DocScrutinizer> it has no capacitive touchscreen like ipod
Feb 14 05:01:36 <nOStahl> good to know
Feb 14 05:02:01 <nOStahl> blah im probably going to need to get an unactivated iphone 3gs once they come down in price cause of the new 4g comming out
Feb 14 05:05:50 <slaxxer> opkg upgrade on shr-testing ok?
Feb 14 05:07:22 <DocScrutinizer> nOStahl: you could use stylus and *write* (as in handwriting) much faster than you type, into a sketch program. You can't do that on ipod. But you'd need to either type it later from your writing, or find a handwriting OCR to do that for you
Feb 14 05:07:34 <slaxxer> i had the jan 15 image on
Feb 14 05:08:32 <nOStahl> i can type pretty fast with the touchscreen keyboards
Feb 14 05:12:31 <slaxxer> if u are a developer  this project is great
Feb 14 05:14:05 <nOStahl> no dev here just power user
Feb 14 05:16:06 <DocScrutinizer> well, for GPS there's a number of really good apps
Feb 14 05:16:28 <DocScrutinizer> for skype just forget about it
Feb 14 05:17:22 <DocScrutinizer> for typing you simply have to try if you feel comfortable with a stylus and a quite small kbd, or with the rather special literki
Feb 14 05:18:41 <DocScrutinizer> FR has a unique typo-correcting kbd that might work quite good with normal text
Feb 14 05:29:12 <slaxxer> does opendoom package work for anybody?
Feb 14 05:29:28 <slaxxer> or duke nukem?
Feb 14 05:43:49 <nOStahl> i use to play duke nukem 3d back in the day
Feb 14 05:52:03 <slaxxer> yea but on the openmoko
Feb 14 05:52:22 <nOStahl> think i seen a video of it running on youtube
Feb 14 05:52:34 <slaxxer> i have played it    but lately it no work
Feb 14 05:55:13 <slaxxer> http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Applications
Feb 14 05:55:36 <slaxxer>  many of these apps install   but many dont work
Feb 14 05:56:23 <slaxxer> might be when shr stable is released next year   maybe these apps will work
Feb 14 06:00:56 <DocScrutinizer> slaxxer: usually the distro isn't to blame for an app not working
Feb 14 06:03:04 <DocScrutinizer> maybe the app wasn't (correctly) packaged/adapted for the distro. But then it's unlikely a new distro version will fix that
Feb 14 06:03:50 <DocScrutinizer> usually the failing app simply has bugs
Feb 14 10:23:12 <PBeck> hi
Feb 14 17:44:43 <PBeck> hi
Feb 14 20:34:30 <nOStahl> hey guys, was wondering if you could pair up one of those folding bluetooth keyboards with openmoko for writing articles on the go
Feb 14 20:37:35 <DocScrutinizer51> sure
Feb 14 20:38:39 <DocScrutinizer51> yoe even can hook up arbitrary USB standard keyboards
Feb 14 20:39:24 <DocScrutinizer51> as FR is one of the *very* few devices out in the wild with full usb hostmode support
Feb 14 21:08:07 <Hardy> exit
Feb 14 22:05:57 <rodion> hm, do you know about any other phones with usb host support?
Feb 14 22:06:10 <rodion> i only know of the n810, which is not being sold any longer afaik.
Feb 14 22:06:25 <rodion> and then there's some windows-based phones, but i'm not really interested in that.
Feb 14 22:09:49 <max_posedon> n810 has only 100mA usb host
Feb 14 22:10:14 <max_posedon> DocScrutinizer51 said that only few devices have usb hostmode support
Feb 14 22:10:15 <rodion> yeah. and the usb-otg-driver is severely broken.
Feb 14 22:10:16 <PaulFertser> Yep, but one can supply more externally (requires a bit of kernel patching)
Feb 14 22:10:45 <max_posedon> but he forget add that only "few" of that "few amount" have 500mA usb host. not just 100
Feb 14 22:11:37 <rodion> so which other are there that do usb-host mode (i don't care too much about 100 vs 500 mA)
Feb 14 22:11:42 <rodion> ?
Feb 14 22:12:25 <max_posedon> belive me, you really care (I think)
Feb 14 22:12:44 <rodion> i don't think so. i can have a usb-hub that is externally powered.
Feb 14 22:41:53 <rodion> ok, next question :) do you know of any zigbee/802.15.4 enabled phones?
Feb 14 22:57:49 <Wonka> .oO( I want to believe in a useable OSS mobile phone... )
Feb 14 22:58:52 <[Rui]> Wonka: well, shr is useable, just not very reliable. plus, OpenMoko Neo Freerunner is the most free mobile phone so far, but it has hardware issues.
Feb 14 22:59:05 <[Rui]> Wonka: that said, I use it as my main phone
Feb 14 23:11:56 <Rakhun> I use mine as main phone too, with Hackable1
Feb 14 23:12:34 <Rakhun> which seems reliable, as long as you don't poke around too much :)
Feb 14 23:14:29 <[Rui]> Rakhun: most of the reliability issues are hw related
Feb 14 23:15:42 <Rakhun> ok
Feb 15 00:11:39 <cosmos> hi
Feb 15 00:13:27 <cosmos> how to erase completely the uSD card? Even after several fdisk deleting partitions and mkfs.ext3, I've still 905.28 MB of ghost data on it.
Feb 15 00:14:03 <SpeedEvil> dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/foo
Feb 15 00:14:17 <SpeedEvil> depending on your definition of completely
Feb 15 00:14:39 <mwester> what is "ghost data"?
Feb 15 00:14:53 <cosmos> a clean uSD card
Feb 15 00:14:55 <mwester> How do you know it is there?
Feb 15 00:15:04 <SpeedEvil> ~30 dd if=/dev/urandom of=/dev/foo will erase most flash devices with 24 spare blocks per 1024
Feb 15 00:15:12 <mwester> How do you define an "unclean" uSD card?
Feb 15 00:17:01 <cosmos> mwester, SpeedEvil: I see that on a fresh install of QtMoko with "info systaem">"Storage" after mounting /dev/mmcblk0p1 on /media/card (I have 2 partitions on the uSD card, 1:ext3 and 2:swap)
Feb 15 00:17:42 <cosmos> I see: "Used (905.28 MB)"
Feb 15 00:18:47 <cosmos> This data come probably from the previous install of QtMoko on the uSD card
Feb 15 00:19:43 <SpeedEvil> after mkfs - there is no data accessible to the fs left
Feb 15 00:19:44 <mwester> No, that's overhead associated with the filesystem.
Feb 15 00:19:47 <SpeedEvil> what does df say
Feb 15 00:22:15 <cosmos> In /media/card I have a mysterious ./lost+found that I cannot access
Feb 15 00:22:45 <cosmos> "cd: /media.card/lost+found: No such file or directory"
Feb 15 00:23:09 <cosmos> but:
Feb 15 00:23:13 <cosmos> neo:~# ls /media/card
Feb 15 00:23:13 <cosmos> lost+found
Feb 15 00:23:58 <cosmos> Ok I want to delete that
Feb 15 00:25:01 <cosmos> so SpeedEvil: which exact command could I use for that?
Feb 15 00:27:13 <SpeedEvil> no, you don't
Feb 15 00:27:14 <mwester> cosmos,  you may not delete lost+found; it is a special (empty) directory.  It will be used to place recovered data by the fsck utility if your card becomes so corrupted that fsck cannot determine where in the filesystem an item of data should go.  
Feb 15 00:29:00 <cosmos> mwester: ok, I can mkdir /media/card/lost+found after, but now I would like to delete these 905.28 MB of data
Feb 15 00:29:31 <mwester> cosmos,  I said already that the data is overhead.  It is not files in the filesystem.  There is nothing you can delete.
Feb 15 00:29:52 <cosmos> SpeedEvil: dd if=/dev/urandom of=/dev/mmcblk0p1?
Feb 15 00:30:19 <SpeedEvil> cosmos: no - I was misunderstanding what you'd done
Feb 15 00:30:30 <SpeedEvil> cosmos: you aren't seeing anything meaningful
Feb 15 00:30:47 <SpeedEvil> it's the space that is allocated for root - and to reduce fragmentation
Feb 15 00:31:06 <SpeedEvil> this is a 16G microsd?
Feb 15 00:31:26 <cosmos> ? 905.28 MB of space?
Feb 15 00:31:29 <cosmos> yes
Feb 15 00:32:37 <SpeedEvil> That is 5%
Feb 15 00:32:47 <SpeedEvil> which is the right number for the default spare allocation
Feb 15 00:32:56 <cosmos> ok
Feb 15 00:34:02 <mwester> You'll probably have a pretty significantly-sized journal as well for something that large.
Feb 15 00:34:20 <cosmos> I wondering after a discussion wiyh radekp, to try the "ubind" alternative: install applications on a /bin folder on the uSD card and to keep the core on the NAND flash
Feb 15 00:34:40 <mwester> why?
Feb 15 00:34:44 <mwester> You have 16GB!
Feb 15 00:35:00 <mwester> a few hundred MB on the flash is rather insignificant, isn't it?
Feb 15 00:35:13 <cosmos> yes
Feb 15 00:35:30 <mwester> SO just install everyrhing on the uSD card.
Feb 15 00:35:52 <mwester> No need for funky bind mounts and all.
Feb 15 00:36:31 <cosmos> and the question of reliability?
Feb 15 00:37:13 <mwester> What question would that be?
Feb 15 00:38:05 <cosmos> Do a system on NAND is more reliable/stable than a system on uSD card?
Feb 15 00:38:21 <mwester> Ah.  
Feb 15 00:38:52 <mwester> Dunno.  What's the status of the latest kernels?   (Aside from the standard "the sysfs API is changing without notice once again! :p )
Feb 15 00:39:34 <mwester> Back when I had time to mess with it, the phone pretty much crashed daily, no matter what it was booted from.  So reliability wasn't much affected; it was awful no matter what!
Feb 15 00:46:40 <squalor> hello
Feb 15 00:47:05 <squalor> does anyone here have a freerunner they're looking to sell?
Feb 15 00:47:06 <jxself> squalor: Hello.
Feb 15 00:49:30 <jxself> squalor: US version? EU version?
Feb 15 00:49:42 <squalor> us version, ideally
Feb 15 00:49:57 <squalor> but wouldn't the eu version play nice with tmobile?
Feb 15 00:50:31 <mwester> Partially.  It would on the high-frequency band.
Feb 15 00:50:49 <squalor> yeah
Feb 15 00:51:08 <squalor> eu is typically 850 and us in 900, right? or is it the other way around?
Feb 15 00:51:15 <jxself> US is 850
Feb 15 00:51:28 <jxself> 'cause the US has to be different
Feb 15 00:51:40 <mwester> 900MHz was already in use in the US, so they had to select an open bit of spectrum.
Feb 15 00:51:50 <squalor> ah
Feb 15 00:52:40 <squalor> but, i've checked ebay, and there's only one there for sale. i figured that someone in the community might have a US version they no longer want...
Feb 15 01:51:55 <nOStahl> so if you throw android on your fr  do you have full access to the app store
Feb 15 02:17:21 <nOStahl_> back, so do you have full access to app store if you throw android on the fr
Feb 15 02:29:39 <rozzin> I thought that only worked through some proprietary Google app, no?
Feb 15 02:32:54 <nOStahl_> not sure
Feb 15 02:34:33 <nOStahl_> ah ya looks that way
Feb 15 02:43:02 <rozzin> Android seems less interesting every time I look at it :\
Feb 15 02:51:40 <nOStahl_> i use an ipod touch right now 32gig for my portable device
Feb 15 02:51:55 <nOStahl_> was looking at the freerunner for the gps built in and such
Feb 15 02:52:01 <nOStahl_> but no skype ugg
Feb 15 02:55:27 <mwester> skype is proprietary too
Feb 15 02:55:41 <nOStahl_> aye
Feb 15 02:55:59 <nOStahl_> 3 bucks a month its hard to beat for unlimited calls north america
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Mon Feb 15 02:59:57 2010