**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Mon Mar 08 02:59:57 2010
Mar 08 06:45:29 <kaja> Hello wikireader users! :D
Mar 08 06:46:00 <kaja> I would like to get esperanto and swedish wikipedias on my wikireader
Mar 08 06:46:15 <kaja> i downloaded the autowiki.sh script and read it but i'm a bit confused about using it
Mar 08 06:46:46 <kaja> what are "the wikireader tools" ? 
Mar 08 06:46:52 <kaja> is that the stuff on my microsd card?
Mar 08 06:50:59 <kaja> hello naquan 
Mar 08 06:51:03 <kaja> do you have a wikireader? :D
Mar 08 06:54:15 <naquan> kaja: no, i don't have it.
Mar 08 06:56:10 <kaja> For shame!
Mar 08 07:02:31 <Kame2> kaja: see topic. #openmoko-wikireader is the right chan for you
Mar 08 07:03:55 <kaja> Kame2: i understand, but hardly anyone is in there
Mar 08 07:07:12 <Kame2> then try at a different time maybe. don't know but this chan is for users of the mobile phone. i think most readers don't know more about the reader than you can find on openmoko.com
Mar 08 07:07:33 <Kame2> readers -> users
Mar 08 07:08:09 <balrog-k1n> who are mostly readers
Mar 08 07:08:58 <Kame2> right ^^
Mar 08 07:12:27 <kaja> ahh it's annoying
Mar 08 07:12:37 <kaja> wikireader could be a great toy to play around with
Mar 08 07:12:43 <kaja> but it's so hard to find decent documentation
Mar 08 08:01:40 <kaja>  /wc
Mar 08 09:50:27 <rss> hi, I need evince on shr to read a djvu file
Mar 08 09:50:46 <rss> in angstrom repository, which ipk file should I pick?
Mar 08 09:52:31 <Heinervdm> rss: you need a armv4t ipk
Mar 08 09:52:49 <rss> thanks
Mar 08 09:53:35 <PaulFertser> rss: and you better ask SHR devs to add it to the feeds rather than picking packages from angstrom repo
Mar 08 09:55:08 <PaulFertser> rss: (meant as a friendly suggestion)
Mar 08 09:56:28 * JaMa|Wrk already building it on shr buildhost :)
Mar 08 09:56:34 <JaMa|Wrk> how friendly it is! ;)
Mar 08 09:57:24 <pabs3> hmm, can the FR charge or be powered from USB when in suspend mode?
Mar 08 09:58:39 <rss> PaulFertser: ok
Mar 08 10:10:34 <zlfita> @ pabs3: it will probably charge @100mA
Mar 08 10:22:25 <PaulFertser> PaulFertser: FR will charge with whatever current it charged with prior to suspend.
Mar 08 10:22:40 <PaulFertser> zlfita: ^^^
Mar 08 10:23:18 <zlfita> @PaulFertser: thanks
Mar 08 12:12:35 <rss> in SHR, I removed elmdentica but icons are still there, is there any way to get rid of them?
Mar 08 12:13:06 <rss> usually the icon goes away when a package is removed
Mar 08 12:24:58 <DocScrutinizer> rssdelete the .desktop file in /usr/share/apps or somesuch
Mar 08 12:25:40 <DocScrutinizer> bah, driveby-asker once more :-/
Mar 08 13:21:21 <anandnarayan> hi , I would like to know how I can program the processor of the openmoko directly , without the OS .. I mean just run a C program , programming the processor , I would like to use the phone as an embedded system .
Mar 08 13:22:08 <anandnarayan> i have neo freerunner gta02 . anandnarayan891@gmail.com is my contact
Mar 08 13:22:51 <SpeedEvil> Of course you can.
Mar 08 13:23:00 <anandnarayan> I am student who wants to create a very small OS , just to know how things work and I want to do this with neo freerunner , where can I get some help
Mar 08 13:23:02 <SpeedEvil> Get the uboot, or QI source. 
Mar 08 13:23:11 <anandnarayan> okay and then
Mar 08 13:23:12 <SpeedEvil> implement what it implements.
Mar 08 13:23:25 <SpeedEvil> then it's simply a matter of programming the SoC to do stuff.
Mar 08 13:23:35 <SpeedEvil> the graphics chip is going to be deeply annoying.
Mar 08 13:25:15 <anandnarayan> like any points to make my job easier , like the tough part would to write device drivers .. and more over I am a noob at low level stuff , how do I exactly program the SoC , where do I place the C code , what compiler do I use ?
Mar 08 13:25:43 <PaulFertser> anandnarayan: there's some "barebones" example on the wiki.
Mar 08 13:25:46 <SpeedEvil> gcc works just fine.
Mar 08 13:26:05 <SpeedEvil> If there are examples - great!
Mar 08 13:26:18 <SpeedEvil> The fr is not a great choice in some ways as a devboard.
Mar 08 13:26:29 <anandnarayan> PaulFertser , it would be a great help if you can get me those links
Mar 08 13:26:38 <PaulFertser> anandnarayan: hold on
Mar 08 13:27:05 <PaulFertser> anandnarayan: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Bare_metal ?
Mar 08 13:27:44 <anandnarayan> SpeedEvil , I am very interested in knowing how a Phone is programmed , and I have purchased fr , so I am looking to forward to learning on the fr itself , what could be a better solution
Mar 08 13:27:46 <anandnarayan> ?
Mar 08 13:28:11 <SpeedEvil> anandnarayan: 'how a phone is programmed' - is in many ways not an interesting thing.
Mar 08 13:28:27 <SpeedEvil> It's basically - for the FR - simply another linux platform.
Mar 08 13:28:45 <SpeedEvil> The only non linuxy bits are the bootloader.
Mar 08 13:29:11 <SpeedEvil> How phones are programmed is generally by taking the least effort solution, nothing clever.
Mar 08 13:29:29 <anandnarayan> PaulFertser , thank you very much . I got what I needed in a jiffy from you , I didnt get through google for three days .
Mar 08 13:29:44 <PaulFertser> anandnarayan: welcome
Mar 08 13:29:48 <SpeedEvil> Which is generally to either port linux or symbian or android or ... to your hardware.
Mar 08 13:29:56 <SpeedEvil> or SHR or ... of course.
Mar 08 13:30:16 <SpeedEvil> 'nobody' programs phones in assembler - for example.
Mar 08 13:31:00 <anandnarayan> SpeedEvil , just my curiosity to learn more about  programming a device .. 
Mar 08 13:31:05 <PaulFertser> SpeedEvil: for a research or educational project gta02 is quite ok: can't be bricked, inexpensive, powerful, reusable as a phone :D
Mar 08 13:31:30 <PaulFertser> SpeedEvil: also it can be used as a base for many fun robotics or other embedded projects.
Mar 08 13:32:01 <anandnarayan> PaulFertser : thats exactly what I am heading towards , can you tel me , where exactly would be a good start for me
Mar 08 13:32:03 <PaulFertser> I'd say it's one of the best platforms for educational purposes.
Mar 08 13:32:29 <SpeedEvil> In many ways the neo1973 is possibly a better device from a dev platform POV
Mar 08 13:32:35 <PaulFertser> anandnarayan: if you want to go without OS to learn some ARM assembly and try to write a simple scheduler: the link i pasted.
Mar 08 13:32:39 <SpeedEvil> neglecting the unbrickability
Mar 08 13:33:06 <SpeedEvil> in that you have to go through _lots_ fewer hoops to get the display and the SD working.
Mar 08 13:33:14 <SpeedEvil> Based on my quick look at the glamo code.
Mar 08 13:33:25 <SpeedEvil> I don't know what a minimal glamo driver would look like.
Mar 08 13:33:55 <PaulFertser> anandnarayan: embedded projects: nothing special, it's just linux, so just using the usual documentation will suffice. And come here if you have some particular questions and are ready to learn.
Mar 08 13:34:06 <PaulFertser> SpeedEvil: i'd borrow that from u-boot fork for gta02.
Mar 08 13:34:58 <PaulFertser> anandnarayan: it's much better to have a debug board for the low-level work. You'll want JTAG for debugging, that's for sure.
Mar 08 13:35:13 <PaulFertser> anandnarayan: and in fact you can use almost any JTAG adapter with compatible voltage.
Mar 08 13:35:21 <anandnarayan> PaulFertser: why do you say its just linux , arent embedded projects , more similar to the link you sent me
Mar 08 13:35:56 <PaulFertser> anandnarayan: modern embedded projects are often based on a full-featured (read "runs Linux") devices as it's much simpler than anything else. And cheap enough.
Mar 08 13:36:09 <PaulFertser> nvm grammar :/
Mar 08 13:36:58 <anandnarayan> PaulFertser : I have purchased a debug board too and I have no clue as to what It does , basically I wanted to learn ARM coding , so I promised to make a small OS for openmoko(without any knowledge of how to do it) for my university project . so here I am 
Mar 08 13:36:58 <SpeedEvil> 'proper' embedded projects these days are limited to stuff that can't run linux (or vxworks) easily
Mar 08 13:37:09 <PaulFertser> anandnarayan: for the really simple and cheap embedded you might want to look at AVR devices instead.
Mar 08 13:37:31 <PaulFertser> SpeedEvil: well, you know what i'm talking about, i know what you're talking about ;)
Mar 08 13:37:35 <PaulFertser> It's all about terminology.
Mar 08 13:37:37 <SpeedEvil> For example, you're not going to run linux on a device with 10 bytes of RAM, and 250 words of code.
Mar 08 13:37:47 <SpeedEvil> yes - I was talking to anandnarayan
Mar 08 13:38:19 <SpeedEvil> And the device with 250 words of code and 10 bytes of RAM maybe takes 20 or 30 instructions to initialise.
Mar 08 13:38:32 <PaulFertser> anandnarayan: or if you need more power, probably STM32 or other Cortex-M3 uCs.
Mar 08 13:38:48 <SpeedEvil> With a device like the ARM in the fr, you're looking more like several thousand at minimum.
Mar 08 13:39:02 <SpeedEvil> stm32 is great. 
Mar 08 13:39:14 <SpeedEvil> 32 bit, not too expensive, and dozens of K of ROM and RAM
Mar 08 13:39:25 <SpeedEvil> Also unbrickable rs232 bootloader
Mar 08 13:39:25 <anandnarayan> PaulFertser: yes I realised that I should have gone for a board like arduino , but I had already purchased neo frunner , and also my university expecting me to do something on it , I must stick to this
Mar 08 13:39:58 <PaulFertser> SpeedEvil: i've recently learned some stm32 versions have no way to activate the BL due to hardware errata :) STM32F105 earlier than some specific date.
Mar 08 13:40:06 <SpeedEvil> eww.
Mar 08 13:40:41 <PaulFertser> SpeedEvil: the low-pin version. You just can't force pins to proper state because they're not routed outside :)
Mar 08 13:40:45 <SpeedEvil> anandnarayan: There are lots of linux tasks that need some love in the embedded area.
Mar 08 13:41:20 <anandnarayan> PaulFertser and SpeedEvil : what are the prerequistes (things I should know) before I venture into programming fr , or I just dive in and learn
Mar 08 13:41:41 <PaulFertser> anandnarayan: you need to decide what exactly you want to do first i'd say
Mar 08 13:41:42 <anandnarayan> SpeedEvil:linux tasks as in
Mar 08 13:42:41 <SpeedEvil> anandnarayan: for example, teaching the swap algorithm about flash. You want to - if swapping to SD or mmc, or any wear leveled media - write out swap in a linear manner. Never fragmenting it.
Mar 08 13:43:12 <SpeedEvil> The current algorithm doesn't really do this - so swapout performance can be under 1% of optimal in some cases.
Mar 08 13:43:26 <anandnarayan> PaulFertser: I want to make a very minimal program running on FR , having a text editor and a calculator
Mar 08 13:43:28 <SpeedEvil> (flash sucks when you do random writes)
Mar 08 13:43:43 <SpeedEvil> you also need to tell it to never readahead on flash for swap.
Mar 08 13:44:51 <anandnarayan> SpeedEvil: i get a vague picture of what you are trying to say , but I guess I need some knowledge on the way the kernel handles the filesystem
Mar 08 13:46:32 <SpeedEvil> http://elinux.org/Category:Project_proposals
Mar 08 13:47:02 <SpeedEvil> http://pages.cs.wisc.edu/~msaxena/FlashVMpaper.html
Mar 08 13:49:56 <SpeedEvil> http://tree.celinuxforum.org/pipermail/celinux-dev/2010-January/001995.html - if you want a challenging project. :)
Mar 08 13:54:26 <anandnarayan> i realise that I need to do some learning , before I understand this stuff , I am interested , so let me start with the bare_bones first and then get back to you guys , thanks a lot for your time , it was very inspiring and comforting to find help
Mar 08 13:56:43 <PaulFertser> SpeedEvil: if i ever decide i want to do a Ph.D. work i'll ask you for the pointers ;)
Mar 08 13:58:42 <SpeedEvil> good luck!
Mar 08 13:59:21 <SpeedEvil> In some ways the 'barebones kernel' work is 6 years too late
Mar 08 13:59:41 <SpeedEvil> As processors that can run linux are heading for $5
Mar 08 14:01:43 * DocScrutinizer points to wikireader "OS"
Mar 08 14:02:57 <SpeedEvil> yes.
Mar 08 14:03:12 <SpeedEvil> A whole system that can run linux is $10 at least
Mar 08 14:03:18 <DocScrutinizer> afaik it even has a calculator
Mar 08 14:03:19 <SpeedEvil> which is too much in many cases.
Mar 08 14:03:42 <SpeedEvil> but it's gonna be $8 next year
Mar 08 14:05:31 <DocScrutinizer> anandnarayan said he's got a debubo, so it shouldn't be too heavy a task to get some very basic shit running, no?
Mar 08 14:06:27 <SpeedEvil> debubo?
Mar 08 14:06:40 <anandnarayan> DocScrutinizer : I have no clue as to what the debug board does
Mar 08 14:06:51 <SpeedEvil> ah
Mar 08 14:07:05 <DocScrutinizer> ~debubo is DocScrutinizer's way to call the debug board
Mar 08 14:07:06 <apt> okay, DocScrutinizer
Mar 08 14:07:07 <SpeedEvil> It lets you talk serial to the processor.
Mar 08 14:07:15 <SpeedEvil> And JTAG
Mar 08 14:07:21 <SpeedEvil> JTAG is a low-level test interface
Mar 08 14:07:55 <DocScrutinizer> anandnarayan: for you it first and foremost provides a RS232-style terminal interface to FR
Mar 08 14:08:30 <Wonka> ...on which the kernel may spew OOPSes and panics
Mar 08 14:08:44 <DocScrutinizer> driving the rs232 hardware on FR isn't really complicated
Mar 08 14:08:55 <SpeedEvil> no, that's an easy bit :)
Mar 08 14:09:10 <Wonka> and especially the panics are not easy to come by on another way
Mar 08 14:09:13 <DocScrutinizer> Wonka: we're talking bare-metal here. No kernel arond to do such things
Mar 08 14:09:56 <anandnarayan> DocSrutinizer : cant I actually talk serial without the debubo , through hyperterminal 
Mar 08 14:09:59 <anandnarayan> usb
Mar 08 14:10:20 <DocScrutinizer> you could, if you want to mplement a whole USB stack
Mar 08 14:11:19 <DocScrutinizer> interfacing the RS232 UART is simple - interfacing a USB virtual tty is a scary task
Mar 08 14:12:59 <anandnarayan> i think uboot does that for me ? 
Mar 08 14:13:14 <DocScrutinizer> no, uBoot does that for uBoot
Mar 08 14:13:48 <DocScrutinizer> uBoot will not provide any function calls you can use in your own program
Mar 08 14:14:17 <DocScrutinizer> except of course if you decide to copy & paste some of the uBoot source ;-)
Mar 08 14:15:29 <anandnarayan> okay I really need to get started , so that I can reallly understand whats happening fully . Very exciting .. nice community :-) , will surely be back to learn more
Mar 08 14:16:19 <DocScrutinizer> whatever bootloader you'll use, it just loads your program code to RAM for you, then jumps to a startaddress of that code, and leaves you with a clean stupid system. No bios calls, no libs, nothing
Mar 08 14:17:16 <anandnarayan> okay :-)
Mar 08 14:21:52 <DocScrutinizer> anandnarayan: also keep in mind the bare-metal wiki page PaulFertser pointed you at, it seems a little untested and also seems to refer to GTA01 neo1973 rather than neo FreeRunner
Mar 08 14:22:35 <DocScrutinizer> I don't think FR can blink the backlight of screen in the way suggested on that page
Mar 08 14:24:18 <DocScrutinizer> anandnarayan: but on FR otoh you can blink 3 different LEDs of the 2 buttons, which you obviously can't on neo1973 ;-)
Mar 08 14:24:38 <anandnarayan> DocScrutinizer , any guide on how to do that?
Mar 08 14:25:45 <DocScrutinizer> adapt the hw address #define GPBDAT *((volatile unsigned long*)0x56000014)  to point to any of the LEDs of FR, on that wikipage code
Mar 08 14:27:52 <anandnarayan> okay , rest of the addressed remain the same?
Mar 08 14:28:06 <DocScrutinizer> I'd guess so
Mar 08 14:28:30 <DocScrutinizer> had no close inspection of that code
Mar 08 14:29:00 <DocScrutinizer> just noticed it talked about flashing the backlight, which isn't such a simple task on FR
Mar 08 14:29:44 <anandnarayan> and where do I get to learn all this , what documentation should I refer , which is my first step , thats what I wanted to know
Mar 08 14:30:12 <DocScrutinizer> hmhm
Mar 08 14:30:45 <DocScrutinizer> you find the schematics on my page people.openmoko.org/joerg/schematics
Mar 08 14:31:42 <DocScrutinizer> then you'd probably need the user manual of the SoC (~1800pages iirc), or you refer to the kernel sources to find out about such details like hw addresses etc
Mar 08 14:32:55 <DocScrutinizer> there's no good educational docs for FR
Mar 08 14:32:56 <anandnarayan> ok great .. where is the user manual for the SoC , i think that should give a detailed picture
Mar 08 14:33:16 <DocScrutinizer> that's hard to spot, I guess
Mar 08 14:33:39 <DocScrutinizer> skim the om wiki, there might be a ponter
Mar 08 14:35:41 <DocScrutinizer> http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Samsung_S3C2440A
Mar 08 14:36:06 <DocScrutinizer> err
Mar 08 14:36:09 <DocScrutinizer> http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Samsung_S3C2442B
Mar 08 14:39:20 <anandnarayan> okay ... so let me try something and then get back with my doubts
Mar 08 14:43:49 <anandnarayan> the samsung processor document links are not available
Mar 08 14:43:56 <anandnarayan> they point to Page not Foun
Mar 08 14:49:21 <openmoko-jabber_> Martix: anandnarayan: just fixed, lets try http://www.amebasystems.com/downloads/hardware/datasheets/freerunner/SoC/um_s3c2442b_rev12.pdf
Mar 08 15:21:30 <anandnarayan> thank you
Mar 08 17:15:04 <PBeck> hi
Mar 08 23:26:03 <UndrWater> anyone using qi-bootmenu?
Mar 09 00:58:52 <|Marco|> http://www.bunniestudios.com/blog/?p=918  <-- okay, watch out when buying SD cards :S
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Tue Mar 09 02:59:58 2010