**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Fri Mar 12 02:59:57 2010 Mar 12 03:00:46 oh great Mar 12 03:00:54 more spam Mar 12 10:57:45 hello! how can i read the freerunner's PSN from nand? (i'm using openwrt if it matters) Mar 12 11:00:10 rodion: there's an ext2 NAND partition, mount it anywhere and read the serials. Mar 12 11:02:54 PaulFertser: perfect, thanks. Mar 12 11:07:58 rodion: ping me if you need more details Mar 12 11:08:20 PaulFertser: i just mounted /dev/mtdblock5, it had a sn file ... i assume that's what i've been looking for ;() Mar 12 11:09:04 rodion: just out of curiosity: why do you want that? Mar 12 11:10:04 PaulFertser: we're currently considering using freerunner devices to control lego robots ... in our interface software, it's useful to be able to uniquely identify each freerunner and map it to one robot it controls. Mar 12 11:10:26 and the serial number is supposed to identify the freerunner device. Mar 12 11:10:27 rodion: uber-cool. In fact i have Mar 12 11:11:09 expressed the thought that FR is the best suitable device to control robots for educational purposes. Mar 12 11:11:48 it's definitely very well suited for that ... Mar 12 11:11:49 rodion: i wonder why not so many universities were interested in that. I'd say that's an ideal opportunity to both build interesting autonomous devices and to motivate students to contribute to free software. Mar 12 11:12:30 i don't know. we're planning to have a student project in two weeks where students are to experiment with freerunners and lego robots. Mar 12 11:12:36 i'll keep you updated on the results. Mar 12 11:13:57 I mean you can hardly find anything as suitable on the market. Evaluation boards cost a lot more and can hardly be used outside of the projects while with freerunner students can join the effort to bring free software support for telephony, to implement hundreds of interesting projects (e.g. the logic system like that ptitjes's orulesd based on some tricky prolog/Flora/whatever technologies) Mar 12 11:14:48 rodion: do not forget to ping me whenever you'll want some talk about lowlevel stuff ;) Mar 12 11:15:01 great, i'll do. thanks! :) Mar 12 11:15:59 PaulFertser: Probably most of them never heard of the freerunner Mar 12 11:16:19 Defiant: i think everybody interested in free software have heard about openmoko. Mar 12 11:16:38 PaulFertser: depends on how much interested Mar 12 11:17:39 Defiant: well, it was advertised on every possible media i think. Any (geeky) news site had a story about them i think. Mar 12 11:19:01 PaulFertser: Also depends on how it was advertised, from the articles at heise.de or something I remember only stuff like open phone and not "hey you got an ARM with linux running and open hardware here" Mar 12 11:22:11 Defiant: open phone most probably means runs linux on arm -> should be evaluated if it fits the purpose. There're not many devices that can compete with it for custom applications, so every new in the field should draw attention. Mar 12 11:23:13 Defiant: and in fact the only mass-produced open phone in the market should naturally draw attention regardless everything else. Mar 12 11:23:48 there are some videos up on youtube of robots controlled by the fr Mar 12 11:24:00 was more or less one of the first things people did with it Mar 12 11:24:46 Fossi: why do not we see hundreds of students helping with the kernel, FSO etc etc then? Mar 12 11:25:21 well, it's another step being adepted by big unis Mar 12 11:25:45 i just said that there are quite some vids up that show that some people use the fr that way Mar 12 11:27:18 Fossi: but what options do unis have for robotics projects? At the very minimum they need a portable device that has usb host and runs linux and be cheap. I do not know anything else that fits this description. PDA's are almost universally crippled and run winmo. Mar 12 11:28:32 PaulFertser: android is one alternative, especially now that more devices are usb-host enabled. Mar 12 11:28:46 e.g. there are patches for the hero and the motorola droid Mar 12 11:28:47 And only FR is multi-purpose: not only robotics but almost infinite possibilities for different telecommunication-related projects and other cool ideas. Mar 12 11:29:13 yeah, well. tell them, not me ;) Mar 12 11:30:52 rodion: well... At the time Openmoko was announced there was no android, no NDK for it, no anything. And even now i'd consider android to be a suboptimal platform: far from mainstream (you won't get driver/fixes for the kernel; you won't have your favorite *nix applications), stupid SDK instead of regular working environment etc etc. Mar 12 11:31:15 rodion: also FR is 2x (or more) cheaper. Mar 12 11:31:25 And was cheaper back then. Mar 12 11:31:36 rodion: and has i2c exposed Mar 12 11:32:16 PaulFertser: yeah, that's true. but i guess it's still an appealing alternative to many. Mar 12 11:33:27 So my question is: how come universities weren't interested in the best (and the only back then, not counting anti-vendor ports to iPAQs and the like) device fulfilling the requirements? Mar 12 11:34:49 Hm, i even know the guy with the answer. :) Good morning, raster :) Mar 12 11:36:48 huh? Mar 12 11:36:54 * raster blinks Mar 12 11:36:54 :) Mar 12 11:36:57 PaulFertser: hey hey Mar 12 11:37:37 raster: would you like me to rephrase the question or can you read one page of backlog instead? ;) Mar 12 11:39:53 i need to scroll back methinks Mar 12 11:40:01 morning Mar 12 11:41:07 PaulFertser: if i was a uni - i'd use the smartq5. Mar 12 11:41:15 much cheaper than the fr Mar 12 11:41:18 much more powerful Mar 12 11:41:25 and still has all the necessary bits Mar 12 11:41:31 raster: i think they appeared later, no? Mar 12 11:41:39 yes Mar 12 11:41:41 not much though Mar 12 11:41:55 universiti4es are also going to be tiny volumes Mar 12 11:42:04 1 uni would buy like 5 - maybe Mar 12 11:42:33 Also smartq lacks any kind of GSM. Mar 12 11:42:41 raster: o/ Mar 12 11:42:48 Accelerometers Mar 12 11:43:20 Or http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/mini2440-S3C2440-ARM9-Board-3-5-TFT-LCD-Touch-Screen_W0QQitemZ120512554488QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item1c0f1ba5f8 or similar Mar 12 11:43:55 PaulFertser: very rare u need the gsm Mar 12 11:43:57 raster: and what suprises me is why we see almost no students reasonably participating, neither now, nor before. Mar 12 11:44:13 gsm as such is largely useless for a large host of uses due to latency Mar 12 11:44:20 its useful for some - but its limited Mar 12 11:44:44 raster: i mean to me it sounds like an excellent idea: to combine a development board with a cool gadget. Mar 12 11:44:47 but either way - universities still dont matter muhc in terms of unit sales Mar 12 11:44:53 they are way too small. Mar 12 11:44:54 That is something that should motivate students a lot. Mar 12 11:45:09 DocScrutinizer: docz! Mar 12 11:45:32 PaulFertser: also rememebr - very few universities do REAL hardware Mar 12 11:45:40 that may happen only later as a phd Mar 12 11:46:05 most students doing their undergrads - whihc is the vast majority of students... do it all with simulators invariably Mar 12 11:46:13 its a LOT cheaper Mar 12 11:46:18 and still teaches the same basics Mar 12 11:46:24 raster: what do you mean when you say "do"? I'm yet to see a student doing some upstreaming or driver writing for freerunner. Mar 12 11:46:37 as most of the basics undergrad degrees teach are pretty thin on depth Mar 12 11:46:52 not saying FR Mar 12 11:46:54 How can write and debug a kernelspace driver in emulator? Mar 12 11:46:56 just sayin in generla Mar 12 11:46:59 general Mar 12 11:47:09 most universities have no need FOR hw unless its for postgrads Mar 12 11:47:13 thus - volumes are low Mar 12 11:47:29 (most unis - sure the prominent ones you know the names of that cost a lot to go to may do it... MOSt will not) Mar 12 11:47:40 and student dont learn writign drivers Mar 12 11:47:43 u have to be joking Mar 12 11:47:51 its rare they do Mar 12 11:47:58 raster: also: do you remember ptitjes's work about orulesd: that cool prolog stuff to provide an ultimate flexibility of automated handling of anything a smartphone user faces? Mar 12 11:48:20 and if they do...it tends to be in very minimalist os simulation harnesses so they dont have the complexity of a linux kernel to worry about Mar 12 11:48:31 no Mar 12 11:48:33 dont remember Mar 12 11:48:42 but - that doesnt change anything Mar 12 11:48:43 raster: he presented it at FSOSHRUDEVCON Mar 12 11:49:04 REALITY is the vast majority of unis just are not interested in somehting liek a fr - for anything Mar 12 11:49:13 a few might Mar 12 11:49:15 raster: that's real cool stuff, prolog+Flora blablabla, it makes a real opportunity to turn CS knowlegde in a cool geeky application. Mar 12 11:49:44 it may be Mar 12 11:49:47 but its rare Mar 12 11:49:50 as i said Mar 12 11:50:10 and a few rare peole interested in something like the fr - for that kind of price... makes for a VERY small volume Mar 12 11:50:29 I thought every decent CS student learns some functional programming and probably some prolog/logic programming too. But only ptitjes was interested, that's what surprises me a lot! Mar 12 11:50:59 ahaha Mar 12 11:51:16 you should visit some unis or talk to students Mar 12 11:51:23 that'd get your image straight Mar 12 11:51:26 raster: you're talking about volume, but i'm talking about students. Where the hell are they, why do not they take part in one of the coolest communities in this world? Mar 12 11:51:36 PaulFertser: they do - and none of it cares about any hardware Mar 12 11:51:50 i personally hated miranda and prolog Mar 12 11:52:06 functionoal langs make me want to kill people. Mar 12 11:52:33 Fossi: hm, in fact i'm kinda teaching at a local "uni". But i'm not surprised it sucks, it's not supposed to be a good one. Mar 12 11:52:35 VERY few students doing a CS degree actually RERALLY are interested in things Mar 12 11:52:49 MOST want to get a degree so they czan eventually become an IT manager and earn big money Mar 12 11:52:52 they dont care Mar 12 11:52:56 other than money that is ;D Mar 12 11:53:04 Oh hell, you're ruining my ideal world again Mar 12 11:53:07 thats why for 90%+ windows is great - its the environment they want to be in as thats what they will manage Mar 12 11:53:15 I thought it sucks like that only here... Mar 12 11:53:38 very few of the students are 1. ineterseted enough and 2. smart enough to actually do things like try linux, learn about the kernel etc. Mar 12 11:53:54 i can say from my experience thats maybe 10% of students who aree interested and capable enough Mar 12 11:53:57 maaaaybe Mar 12 11:54:09 Ok, got the idea. Mar 12 11:54:21 raster: may i ask another weird question that bothers me? Mar 12 11:54:25 of those that have the perserverence to deal with beasts lik4e the kernel, x.org, and god knows what other massive codebase beast where have in oss today Mar 12 11:54:38 raster: why the majority of people i meet on IRC are from Germany? Mar 12 11:54:39 maybe 10% of those (1% of students) will really manage in the end Mar 12 11:54:55 and that ios assuming they have the encouragment, facilities and more. Mar 12 11:54:58 because germany rocks ;p Mar 12 11:55:18 PaulFertser: because the channels you are in are particularly centric i guess around germans Mar 12 11:55:24 most i meet are actually from the usa Mar 12 11:55:47 but.. that makes sense - it's the largest "single" entity that speaks english on the internet :) Mar 12 11:55:48 raster: but why is that? openmoko community is largely german, same about openwrt, openocd, god knows what else. Mar 12 11:55:57 i meet enough french people too Mar 12 11:56:09 thats likely a bi-product of harald Mar 12 11:56:10 * DocScrutinizer thinks PaulFertser doesn't appreciate german biased channels :-/ Mar 12 11:56:12 almsot entirely Mar 12 11:56:29 DocScrutinizer: nope, quite the opposite. Unless they speak german all the time :) Mar 12 11:56:30 imho Mar 12 11:56:35 widerstand ist zwecklos! :) Mar 12 11:56:40 hahahahah Mar 12 11:56:55 was wird passieren? Mar 12 11:56:55 if <0.1 Ohm Mar 12 11:57:01 hehehe Mar 12 11:57:01 who or what's harald? Mar 12 11:57:14 raster: but really, it looks like the free software commuinity is in fact dominated by the germans now. Mar 12 11:57:17 Harald Welte Mar 12 11:57:21 harald welte - laforge Mar 12 11:57:33 PaulFertser: i would say that is wrong. :) Mar 12 11:57:46 mastermind of... err I wont eve try to start Mar 12 11:57:54 your view of it may involve an unusually large # of germans - but i dont think they dominate it Mar 12 11:57:57 hmmm. never heard of him Mar 12 11:58:00 as such the germans will be more visible Mar 12 11:58:14 1. they tend to spreak english better than mosty non-english native speakers Mar 12 11:58:25 so they WILL simply be out there more Mar 12 11:58:45 Fossi: google is your friend ;-) Mar 12 11:58:56 the dutch, and scandinavians etc. also are great at english - but there are just many fewer of them Mar 12 11:59:11 raster: e.g. the stats for the web browser say that firefox is the most popular in DE, comparing to other EU countries. Mar 12 11:59:32 PaulFertser: is that normalized by population? Mar 12 11:59:35 or absolute numbers? Mar 12 11:59:47 and the swiss+austrians blend in with the germans - so that emans u have maybe 100mil or so german speakers who overal handle english very well and are not shy - thus, your view will have a disproportionate percentage of germans in it - if u are and english speaker. Mar 12 11:59:49 rodion: i need to find it but i think normalised. Mar 12 12:00:07 (compared to french, italians, spanish, hell most of south america etc.) Mar 12 12:00:21 PaulFertser: as a % - of the 80mil germans Mar 12 12:00:24 thats just a % Mar 12 12:00:51 but as absolute numbers - no. Mar 12 12:01:03 the americans still dominate (if you come from an english speaking world) Mar 12 12:01:26 i dont have numebrs to back that up - but i'm willing to bet that if you dig them up - that is the case. Mar 12 12:01:53 (count % of oss devs, or % of linux users - doesnt matter.. the usa will have more than .de of the oss world) Mar 12 12:02:28 KDE is different though Mar 12 12:02:34 Ok, will probably try to get the stats somewhere. Mar 12 12:02:43 seems to me it's a german project Mar 12 12:03:52 on OM maybe 50% of the westerners were Germans Mar 12 12:03:54 iirc Mar 12 12:05:00 or more or less from German language domain Mar 12 12:05:19 werner Mar 12 12:05:29 even Carsten Haitzler ;-) Mar 12 12:05:31 Of the higher level programs i use daily: gnu screen, mutt, irssi, mcabber, vim, emacs, bash only the last two are non EU projects i think. Mar 12 12:07:25 ion3 :) Mar 12 12:11:43 well most of those are ancient Mar 12 12:11:57 Fossi: hm, most of those are in active development Mar 12 12:12:28 well, as in: their origins might tell more about the people currently developing them, than anything else Mar 12 12:12:31 but i might be wrong Mar 12 13:14:45 PaulFertser, about students not participating in OSS software, I agree with raster. Most of CS students don't mind about it. Mar 12 13:15:10 I've started CS univ this year at Barcelona, ad that's what I've seen Mar 12 13:15:32 pespin: i can understand how that can happen, unless they really want to become some managers or for some other reasons do not love the field. Mar 12 13:16:10 s/can/can't/ Mar 12 13:16:10 PaulFertser meant: pespin: i can't understand how that can happen, unless they really want to become some managers or for some other reasons do not love the field. Mar 12 13:16:30 PaulFertser, I'm starting to think/see that CS student != hacker/OSS devel ;) Mar 12 13:16:50 they are 2 separate things Mar 12 13:16:57 pespin: but who are they? TBH, i do not know any. There's no CS at our uni at all. Mar 12 13:18:17 it's just people who wants a degree, they chose CS as they could choose any other engineering degree Mar 12 13:18:23 do they don't mind at all Mar 12 13:19:06 s/do / Mar 12 13:19:38 pespin: how is education for CS based then? I thought studying LLVM and gcc to get idea about compiler internals, Linux kernel to get idea about kernel stuff, scheme or CL and Haskell to get FP experience, etc etc. I can't see how CS education can be done any other way. Mar 12 13:20:01 gcc is way too complex. Mar 12 13:20:14 PaulFertser, I can't tell you lot's of it, as I haven't done them. Mar 12 13:20:40 the linux kernel is also quite complex. i took an os course were we extended minix, that was really fun. Mar 12 13:20:40 SpeedEvil: the fact it's constantly evolving and works on more and more platforms proves it's not that complex to be unmanageable i guess. Mar 12 13:20:42 but ie. in first quatrimester we had "Introduction to Computers" Mar 12 13:20:42 most of the CS students never get near a "hacking" state anyway Mar 12 13:20:58 Fossi: true. and they don't even want to. Mar 12 13:20:58 ad it was based on building a 16 bit basic computer Mar 12 13:21:16 all was teoric, and we had labs in which we used a simulator using LogicWorks Mar 12 13:21:30 Unmanagable - maybe not. Mar 12 13:21:33 compiler courses are mostly put off until the master or post-doc courses Mar 12 13:21:37 A good learning platform - doubtful. Mar 12 13:21:44 pespin: do you mean you build a system in verilog/vhdl? Mar 12 13:22:10 * PaulFertser has no idea about logicworks Mar 12 13:22:15 and our kernel/OS course consisted of an old unix/mainframe-using prof drawing diagrams about deadlocks Mar 12 13:22:31 i even didn't get it sometimes and nobody cared Mar 12 13:22:45 Fossi: i thought e.g. RCU stuff was introduced by some cool CS folks... Mar 12 13:22:45 PaulFertser, it's more about logic gates, multiplexors, etc. And with that create bigger things, etc. Mar 12 13:22:54 all you had to do was learn them and know them by heart so you could draw them *exactly* as he did in the test Mar 12 13:23:01 pespin: isn't any HDL about that? ;) Mar 12 13:23:03 let me see if I can get some papers to show you Mar 12 13:23:21 PaulFertser: well, that's 0.0001% of all CS students Mar 12 13:24:00 i wouldn't hire about 90% of my old class Mar 12 13:24:25 Fossi: well, the fact uni education is mostly fake in russia is something i got used to long time ago. But i have difficulties it's the case for more sane countries... Mar 12 13:24:27 and we scored pretty good grades in uni comparisons in germany Mar 12 13:24:33 difficulties believing Mar 12 13:25:03 nah, same bullshit everywhere. then again: most people aren't really that much into CS who study it Mar 12 13:25:15 so i guess they learn a lot somehow Mar 12 13:25:21 even if only half of it sticks Mar 12 13:25:40 * PaulFertser wished he had some CS education... Mar 12 13:25:51 but most of that is so basic any interested hacker could skip 6/8 semesters Mar 12 13:26:25 it's kinda nice to know the formalities of some things Mar 12 13:26:37 but mainly it was a waste of time :D Mar 12 13:26:58 Everything's a waste of time. It's all about the attitude. Mar 12 13:27:29 ( any interested hacker could skip) exactly my thought, and I took my consequences ;-P Mar 12 13:27:48 Most people do not need e.g. set theory but it doesn't make it less important or fun. Mar 12 13:28:04 PaulFertser, here you have a final exam of the subject, there's specifications of the computer used at the end: http://dafib.upc.edu/llista-examens/IC/Examen%20IC%202005-2006-Q1%20(Final%20-%20Enunciat).pdf Mar 12 13:30:30 pespin: i guess with that knowledge one can actually make some useful FPGA projects. Mar 12 13:31:04 pespin: this looks ok for a small introductory course Mar 12 13:31:15 PaulFertser: not if you just repeat facts you learnt letter by letter Mar 12 13:31:16 (after one learned digital logic basics of course) Mar 12 13:31:17 PaulFertser, yeah, it's intented as that :) Mar 12 13:31:34 (FPGA) yes, but univer doesn't try to encourage you to do so Mar 12 13:32:45 pespin: hm, strange. It's mad simple nowadays even for hobbists. Mar 12 13:32:59 well, most of the courses weren't half bad actually, but the students didn't care much. i bet they remember about 10% of the whole background Mar 12 13:33:11 and most don't understand how it all connects imho Mar 12 13:33:54 this quatrimeter I'm doing Computer Estructures 1, which docus on assembler and continuing with Mar 12 13:33:55 Why are they kept then? Mar 12 13:34:10 s/docus/focus Mar 12 13:34:34 We keep bad students at our uni just because if we get rid of them we'll lose money -> gotta get rid of some teachers. Mar 12 13:34:42 see, every school pupil learns boolen algebra (at least here), and still I see constructs like "if foo() == true..." Mar 12 13:34:48 this assingature, thought, it's based on using the 16 bit computer used in the first subject Mar 12 13:35:25 Also when everybody around keeps bad students you just have to, because they (governmental structures who give money) compare by quantity, and not by quality. Mar 12 13:35:55 probably a lot of CS students think their Nintendo + PSP experience qualifies them for this profession Mar 12 13:35:59 here at the univ I am, half the students don't pass the "selection phase", and have to abandon Mar 12 13:37:23 "hey can't be that hard. I know how to install windows since I've been 16..." Mar 12 13:37:57 It'd be also kinda sad to throw out a nice guy/girl who's just not naturally capable enough. They're mostly nice people... Mar 12 13:38:00 gf is here, have to go, see ya Mar 12 13:38:10 pespin: thanks, good bye Mar 12 13:38:14 Have a nice day Mar 12 13:40:27 DocScrutinizer: i'm also amazed by the fact many students have difficulties learning basics of imperative programming. Really, it's 100x easier than any real math or physics. Mar 12 13:40:58 yep Mar 12 13:41:56 for a person *thinking* about the things he/she does, it is. A lot of people seem to be driven by belly feeling though Mar 12 13:45:10 more often than not my friends get impatient with me when we do any actions, for me thinking a few steps ahead rather than rushing in and see where that gets us Mar 12 13:45:20 to Mar 12 13:46:12 Heh, that's frustrating, i know. Mar 12 13:48:43 my way: do 20 phonecalls, then visit one shop to fetch the item. Common way: run from one shop to the other, often ending with getting nothing at all except exhaustment in the end of the day. Still it's the prefered method - bewildering Mar 12 13:49:38 DocScrutinizer: and then they call you a lazy ass for sitting at home :) Mar 12 13:49:50 yep Mar 12 13:53:40 Also common way: go to the nearest shop, get random part, complain on ubuntu forums it doesn't work. Mar 12 13:54:03 ah that one I love most, yeah Mar 12 13:58:07 heh, an nice picture on TV :-) wide sandy flatland with single house in the background. a dusty "street" to the house, a sign "dead end" yellow australia style, left along that street a line of posts with phone wires, right of the street a lijne of posts with power wires Mar 12 14:12:01 hrm... is it worth to pay 100 euro extra to get the headset _now_ instead of in a few days? Mar 12 14:17:19 huh?? Mar 12 14:17:40 hardly, whatever the headset might be Mar 12 14:19:28 hardly? Mar 12 14:19:31 not hardy`? Mar 12 14:20:59 I can't imagine a sitation where one needs to pay 100EUR more for a headset. Mar 12 14:22:43 It comes with a vacuum rated helmet. Mar 12 14:30:23 hello I've got a freerunner as a gift. model:GTA02, datecode: 20081029 I cannot find some characters ( / for example) in the terminal, so I am pretty much stuck right at the beginning. any advice, please? Mar 12 14:37:05 pespin: slide up on the keyboard Mar 12 14:41:41 ??? Mar 12 14:42:07 pespin: meant for you Mar 12 14:42:11 petrus: ^^^ Mar 12 14:42:14 pespin: sorry :))) Mar 12 14:42:31 petrus: try to press on the keyboard, slide up, depress. It should change the layout Mar 12 14:44:01 PaulFertser: this operation does not work for me. what I see on the my screen is very different what I see in the docs and wiki pages. Mar 12 14:44:13 petrus: what distro are you running? Mar 12 14:44:38 I cannot say exactly since I cannot type / Mar 12 14:44:54 petrus: if you do not know, just flash the latest shr-testing. Mar 12 14:45:45 PaulFertser: how can I do this without a proper control of all characters in my terminal? Mar 12 14:46:23 petrus: instead of booting the system fully you boot to NOR u-boot and flash with dfu-util. Mar 12 14:49:00 PaulFertser: sorry, I have no idea what you are talking about. I've just open the box, could not find much info related to what I see on my phone. Mar 12 14:49:12 petrus: http://wiki.openmoko.org Mar 12 14:49:18 petrus: and there you'll find Flashing Mar 12 14:49:25 PaulFertser: could you, perhaps, give some URL-s to the wiki I should start? Mar 12 14:49:54 petrus: obviously: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Flashing_the_Neo_FreeRunner Mar 12 14:50:53 petrus: do not backup anything Mar 12 14:51:01 petrus: it doesn't work with nor u-boot anyway. Mar 12 14:51:18 petrus: when you'll want to backup something later, use scp/rsync for that. Mar 12 14:51:48 PaulFertser: I cannot follow these instructions if I cannot type / Mar 12 14:52:21 PaulFertser: I am reading the wiki pages right now Mar 12 14:52:35 petrus: hope you can read the wiki pages without typing / Mar 12 14:59:12 PaulFertser: very funny -- actually I can't since I am using vim like keyboard shortcuts in my browser. Mar 12 15:11:14 petrus: to flash a new system (in case you want a different distro or recover from a broken system) it's quite obviously helping a lot you don't need to type *anything* on the borked device. It's all via your PC you use to flash the new system to FreeRunner Mar 12 15:13:55 DocScrutinizer: thanks, I start seeing that as I am reading the related wiki pages. I'll give it a try soon. Mar 12 18:10:15 hi Mar 12 18:11:33 hi PB Mar 12 18:11:42 PBeck, hi Mar 12 18:13:04 hi pbaxter Mar 12 18:24:27 hi Mar 12 18:24:56 hai kuckuk Mar 12 18:25:15 kuckuck: hai! Mar 12 18:25:59 DocScrutinizer51: great :P Mar 13 00:00:33 hi :D **** ENDING LOGGING AT Sat Mar 13 02:59:57 2010