**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Mon Feb 14 02:59:57 2011 Feb 14 10:00:57 Anyone available to educate me a bit on the relationship between openmoko and android? Feb 14 10:05:48 telegraphs: yes Feb 14 10:06:10 telegraphs: openmoko had a romance with android but then got dumped by the Koolu folks. Feb 14 10:06:14 At least that's how i see it. Feb 14 10:07:03 Wasn't Koolu just a distributor that seemed to want to put androind on it? Feb 14 10:07:37 i see Feb 14 10:08:06 as someone who's getting into programming now, (I've developed one android application professionally) and I'm playing with some python/qt4 here Feb 14 10:08:07 SpeedEvil: no, they promised to put an actual development effort towards that. Feb 14 10:08:16 is there any practical benefit for me to play with openmoko rather than android? Feb 14 10:08:22 Ah. Feb 14 10:08:34 Well - do you have a FR? Feb 14 10:08:57 I have no france Feb 14 10:09:05 telegraphs: android is not *nix Feb 14 10:09:11 Freerunner Feb 14 10:09:16 Openmoko freerunner. Feb 14 10:09:20 telegraphs: so that's not comparable at all Feb 14 10:09:56 That's another one I debate mentally Feb 14 10:09:57 It's the only phone which you can shoot with a .22 rifle, and have it carry on working. Feb 14 10:10:16 hehe Feb 14 10:10:35 SpeedEvil: can you take a look at my naive attempts to ask questions about phonet? What am i doing wrong there? http://logs.nslu2-linux.org/livelogs/ofono.txt Feb 14 10:10:39 Please :) Feb 14 10:10:43 I have a copy of Rockhind's advanced unix programming 2 right here and know C, but I don't forsee any technology trends towards unix in the future. I perceive most of the stacks to already be developed, and that most of the innovation will happen on top of those. Feb 14 10:11:10 Does anyone forecast unix? Please tell me it's worth my time, it looks so cool. Feb 14 10:11:26 meego and related architectures may be interesting still. Feb 14 10:11:50 ooh Feb 14 10:12:12 Openmoko - corporate - is dead. There are some interesting open-source projects still going that started on the openmoko phones. Feb 14 10:12:27 And linux is exploding through embedded space. Feb 14 10:12:27 Just a hacker circlejerk Feb 14 10:12:34 Yeah, I was thinking of embedded Feb 14 10:12:44 I know it sounds crazy, but I am trying to learn skills that are monetizable. Feb 14 10:12:58 I don't think I can monetize linux embedded skills without going to college first though Feb 14 10:12:59 Hardly crazy. Feb 14 10:13:09 I have no problem finding people that want me to write some web crud though. Feb 14 10:13:36 Plus, I don't really have linux embedded skills :/ Feb 14 10:13:57 I know C at a suitable level of competence, and don't really know electronics or x86 assembly Feb 14 10:14:28 more like PIC though, or ARM. Feb 14 10:14:32 * telegraphs derps. Feb 14 10:14:35 For most embedded stuff, you don't really need to know asm. Feb 14 10:14:55 Do you work on any projects outside of openmoko? Feb 14 10:15:04 embedded ones Feb 14 10:16:51 I'm mostly poking around in maemo these days. Feb 14 10:17:06 But not doing much actual coding. More trying to inspire others to do coding. Feb 14 10:17:19 Pointing them at interesting stuff. Feb 14 10:17:29 guess I'm talking to the right guy :) Feb 14 10:18:05 Not really, I've never made any cash at all from maemo, or OM Feb 14 10:18:16 I don't anticipate making cash in the immediate future. Feb 14 10:18:36 but my observation (5+ years of being a passive geek and not really coding anything) Feb 14 10:18:57 has told me that early adopters of obscure yet technically sophisticated things that eventually gain momentum end up the winners. Feb 14 10:19:11 no point in playing with an old and tired language/platform to me. Feb 14 10:19:39 That's why I'm thinking about alternatives to android. All the kiddies have already infested the appospheres. Feb 14 10:19:44 I missed the boat. Feb 14 10:20:33 tl;dr I want to be part of something new and exciting. Feb 14 10:20:44 Unfortunately, openmoko isn't it. Feb 14 10:20:53 Yeah, I think we established that :) Feb 14 10:21:08 meego theoretically might still be, but odds are somewhat ... reduced since nokia Feb 14 10:21:09 Maemo/Meego looked promising, but has really suffered a major blow this week when Nokia jumped to windows. Feb 14 10:21:17 ouch. Feb 14 10:21:26 IMO - a truly dumb move for Nokia. Feb 14 10:21:32 Why? Feb 14 10:21:33 But good for their short-term revenue. Feb 14 10:21:59 They become simply an OEM. With nothing special in terms of software. Feb 14 10:22:23 It's good in the short term - maybe in the medium term - but terrible in the long term. Feb 14 10:24:13 http://goo.gl/OOkte flash on winphone7 and blackberry Feb 14 10:24:29 I think that since it will have flash, that's going to push sales. Feb 14 10:29:21 Short term - sure. Feb 14 10:29:57 The problem is that if WP7 is a success, then lots of phone makers will leap on the bandwagon selling 99% identical in software phones. Feb 14 10:30:23 And then the margin shirinks, as everyone can make hardware - even the chinese phonemakers. Feb 14 10:30:32 * telegraphs lightbulb Feb 14 10:30:38 I should develop for windows phone 7 Feb 14 10:31:03 But if you're going down that route as a phone company - you may as well jump to android - which has a massive intalled base. Feb 14 10:31:13 Rather than win7 - which is struggling. Feb 14 10:31:34 oracle lawsuit maybe bad PR Feb 14 10:32:26 maybe microsoft deliberately delayed the release until their opponents platforms faltered in at least one way in the media. Feb 14 10:32:35 signal attenuation for iphone 4 Feb 14 10:32:39 lawsuit for android Feb 14 10:36:10 no cut n paste on wp7 , what a regression Feb 14 10:36:30 eww Feb 14 10:36:49 if only nokia patented it Feb 14 10:36:53 they would add it :) Feb 14 10:37:19 anyway nokia device owners here ? Feb 14 10:37:26 -way Feb 14 10:37:46 I'm in the market for a new phone, has to be cheap Feb 14 10:38:05 n900 is still 400EUR Feb 14 10:38:23 do americans use nokia at all? Feb 14 10:38:29 or is it mostly finns Feb 14 10:42:04 n900 here - I like it. Feb 14 10:45:27 meh, looks like android is where it's at Feb 14 10:46:06 oh well, I'm going to leave since I don't really care about openmoko. Feb 14 10:46:16 you guys have been really great though, thanks for the talk. Feb 14 10:56:57 SpeedEvil: which OS will u expect to run on it in the future ? Feb 14 10:57:17 At the moment, maemo is working for me. Feb 14 10:57:34 i run it on n8x0 too Feb 14 10:57:46 I can easily install a fairly wide range of community written apps, as well as run thing son bash/python on the n900. Feb 14 10:57:55 but i think this devices is near to support a free platform Feb 14 10:57:59 ever tried mer ? Feb 14 10:58:02 Even install GCC and friends without issues. Feb 14 10:58:21 Mer pretty much died when meego was announced. Feb 14 10:58:30 yes this is the only device that can do a such thing as long a FR Feb 14 10:58:47 i feel it's time to resurect it :) Feb 14 10:58:52 or SHR on NIT Feb 14 10:59:32 SHR on NIT is already happening Feb 14 11:03:03 i know Feb 14 11:06:01 * SpeedEvil hopes another NIT happens. Feb 14 15:23:28 6.66 they're doomed now : http://identi.ca/notice/64466194 Feb 14 15:24:06 hello Feb 14 15:24:49 i am building image as described on http://shr-project.org/trac/wiki/Building%20SHR but i get error during make image Feb 14 15:25:09 ERROR: QA Issue with python-sqlite3: package python-sqlite3 contains bad RPATH /media/shr/shr-unstable/tmp/sysroots/armv4t-oe-linux-gnueabi/usr/lib in file /media/shr/shr-unstable/tmp/work/armv4t-oe-linux-gnueabi/python-2.6.5-ml12.3/packages-split/python-sqlite3/usr/lib/python2.6/lib-dynload/_sqlite3.so Feb 14 15:25:31 how to fix it? Feb 14 15:27:46 Guys> Feb 14 15:27:49 ? Feb 14 15:34:35 mickey|office: howdy Feb 14 15:34:38 <[Rui]> rzr: nokia? yeah, keeps going with a down tendency Feb 14 15:35:05 -20% in a couple of days ... windows is leaking Feb 14 15:35:11 Well... Feb 14 15:35:25 Look back over the past month, and the drop compared to ohter troughs is less bad Feb 14 15:35:27 But still. Feb 14 15:35:48 Ideally you'd want it to spike the other way on an announcement of the next great leap forward. Feb 14 15:36:11 <[Rui]> SpeedEvil: this fall is a vote of "confidence" in Nokia's #Elopcalypse Feb 14 15:37:01 It should be Elopalyps. Feb 14 15:37:03 e Feb 14 15:37:08 Otherwise it doesn't scan. Feb 14 15:50:46 so can anyone help me with RPATH Feb 14 15:51:26 i found number of posts about problems with RPATH during building shr image Feb 14 15:51:31 but no answers Feb 14 15:51:42 Sorry - no idea. :( Feb 14 15:52:32 why i get "package python-sqlite3 contains bad RPATH /media/shr/shr-unstable/tmp/sysroots/armv4t-oe-linux-gnueabi/usr/lib " Feb 14 15:52:38 Pity ^( Feb 14 15:52:56 did you ever built SHR image? Feb 14 15:55:23 how could i exclude python from building? Feb 14 16:01:35 Nope, sorry Feb 14 16:10:48 it there kinda STABLE version to build in shr-project.org? Feb 14 16:11:13 may shr-unstable be broken? Feb 14 16:12:39 there's a shr-testing branch in OE. don't know how stable it is Feb 14 16:14:24 But which of them more stable UNSTABLE or TESTING? Feb 14 16:17:42 testing Feb 14 16:22:04 thanks Feb 14 16:22:19 if i will fail with shr-unstable i will try testing Feb 14 20:58:23 any distro that will work well with openmoko usb networking Feb 14 20:58:29 i gave up on ubuntu. Feb 14 20:59:01 wiki recommends knoppix 6.3, Feb 14 20:59:08 but i cant find that version anywhere Feb 14 20:59:53 mandd: any distro works, you just need to handle it :) Feb 14 21:00:58 mandd: all should work, jsut out of box, what's wrong with yours? Feb 14 21:01:06 for sure. but I went over everything, from if-up/down fixes to everything recomended on wiki and beyond Feb 14 21:01:40 is it possible to set 'monitor' mode on GTA02 integrated WLAN card? Feb 14 21:01:42 mandd: but did you understand what you were doing? Feb 14 21:01:58 adiblol: afaik the non-free firmware does not support that Feb 14 21:02:16 lindi-: but I use open-source firmware. Feb 14 21:02:37 adiblol: unlikely Feb 14 21:03:17 is it hardware limitation? hardcoded into the atheros module? Feb 14 21:03:35 adiblol: basically, yes. Feb 14 21:03:53 adiblol: it's a limitation of the non-free firmware running on atheros CPU probably Feb 14 21:04:32 binary blobs running on atheros, not on main MCU? Feb 14 21:04:57 adiblol: right. Feb 14 21:05:17 mandd: what is you problem exactly? Feb 14 21:05:31 mandd: did network-mangller eat your connections? kill it and do things by hand :) Feb 14 21:05:35 disconnectes, drops usb, Feb 14 21:05:43 i am just trying to get some syslog to paste bin Feb 14 21:05:57 no network manager. Feb 14 21:06:17 mandd: so you connect cable, do ifup usb0 and what happens? Feb 14 21:06:44 i should have asked before, I'll set it up, and i'll paste syslog to pastebin. Feb 14 21:06:55 maybe with your help! Feb 14 21:07:04 i wont have to loook for knoppix Feb 14 21:07:22 mandd: it should work in any distro, really Feb 14 21:20:03 afk, work :) Feb 14 21:20:40 http://pastebin.com/RcsC9DZa Feb 14 21:20:54 i connect to usb, assign ip/add route Feb 14 21:20:58 all works, until it drops Feb 14 21:21:01 10 seconds later Feb 14 21:21:07 mandd: what drops it? Feb 14 21:21:23 its in syslog, I am not sure Feb 14 21:21:46 mandd: stop processes on at a time to see which one causes it :) Feb 14 21:22:00 wich once Feb 14 21:22:08 which* Feb 14 21:23:15 mandd: i don't know how network manager work, but it look something like this Feb 14 21:24:00 mandd: 30 seconds then 'no ipv6 routers', hm, was it waiting for DHCP? Feb 14 21:24:10 brrr Feb 14 21:24:23 have you setup it in /etc/network/interfaces? Feb 14 21:24:38 yes, before id said waiting, so i changed iterfaces, usb0 set to static Feb 14 21:24:51 adjusted /etc/network/interfaces Feb 14 21:24:57 killed network manager Feb 14 21:25:03 same thing.. Feb 14 21:25:07 did it rise from dead? Feb 14 21:25:31 no, i have to plug/unplug it Feb 14 21:25:42 i mean network manager Feb 14 21:26:08 gena2x can I ask you a crazy question Feb 14 21:26:13 just, if it is possible. Feb 14 21:26:27 you can try... Feb 14 21:27:00 to take Neofreerunner (new one) install debian on it, and than install openvpn cplient on debian and sip client, to connect to pbx over vpn Feb 14 21:27:08 "possible" ? Feb 14 21:27:28 "secure phone" Feb 14 21:27:36 yes, why not? Feb 14 21:27:50 over wifi only i think, as gprs is 2g Feb 14 21:28:01 ohh Feb 14 21:28:12 cant have 3g? Feb 14 21:28:22 gena2x: FR is not fast enough for voip echo cancellation Feb 14 21:28:40 gena2x: at least with linphone Feb 14 21:28:47 lindi-: floating point issue? Feb 14 21:28:52 gena2x: hard to say Feb 14 21:29:07 lindi-: easy, need just oprofile it :) Feb 14 21:29:31 but i never tried, yes. Feb 14 21:29:32 gena2x without 3g it is not possible? Feb 14 21:29:37 over 2g? Feb 14 21:29:45 not fast enough Feb 14 21:29:47 ? Feb 14 21:29:47 you may try over wifi as i told Feb 14 21:30:04 but if I want it over gsm Feb 14 21:30:10 not wifi Feb 14 21:30:24 i am not voip expert Feb 14 21:30:47 mandd: you can connect an external 3G usb device Feb 14 21:31:05 but i guess 2g bandwidth of 10kb/s is not enought for audio Feb 14 21:31:30 but sure, you may connect external 3g, as lindi does afaik Feb 14 21:33:07 mandd: good thing in fr is that you can experiment as much as you want. Feb 14 21:34:11 external 3g Feb 14 21:34:18 like usb cable to 3g modem? Feb 14 21:34:25 or where it some little device? Feb 14 21:34:32 that can snapon ? Feb 14 21:35:01 mandd: if you never saw usb 3g modems... they are like (older bigger) usb flash. Feb 14 21:35:16 yeah, too big + lotsa of power Feb 14 21:35:52 mandd: it's the best you can do with FR if you want 3G :) Feb 14 21:36:05 I have http://www.mobilebroadbandrocks.com/device/huawei-e169 Feb 14 21:36:35 let's hope we'll be able to buy gta04 soon Feb 14 21:38:51 with that nokia's actions it gets some real chances Feb 14 21:48:28 wiem Feb 14 21:52:47 is nokia behaving worse then usual again? Feb 14 21:52:59 or is it just old news that i'm not aware of? Feb 14 21:53:03 Kamping_Kaiser: missed the big friday news? Feb 14 21:53:10 PaulFertser: yeah Feb 14 21:53:37 Kamping_Kaiser: http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/press/2011/feb11/02-11partnership.mspx Feb 14 21:53:53 ah. the clue is in the uri. Feb 14 21:53:57 *looks* Feb 14 21:55:34 guess neither of them does android, so they need each other now to feel relevant. shame about anyone in nokia who was doing free software work though Feb 14 21:56:02 it is interesting, how qt guys will feel after this, would be they have any plans to leave nokia and continue working on qt :) opensource allows this... Feb 14 21:57:58 or will qt windows support get a whole lot more testing... Feb 14 21:58:38 i think ms guy will not tolerate such cross-platform thing for a long time. Feb 14 21:58:45 s/guy/guys/ Feb 14 21:58:46 gena2x meant: i think ms guys will not tolerate such cross-platform thing for a long time. Feb 14 22:01:41 * Kamping_Kaiser slaps apt **** ENDING LOGGING AT Tue Feb 15 02:59:56 2011