**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Sat Jul 02 02:59:57 2011
Jul 02 18:12:42 <gkwhc> Hi everyone! I'm very interested in freerunner and I'd like to know if it can access wireless internet without paying the service provider?
Jul 02 18:13:41 <PaulFertser> gkwhc: hi
Jul 02 18:13:47 <PaulFertser> gkwhc: what exactly do you mean?
Jul 02 18:14:30 <gkwhc> PaulFertser: most phones in the US require users to pay in order to access the internet
Jul 02 18:14:59 <SpeedEvil> If you connect to their network, you have to pay.
Jul 02 18:15:05 <gkwhc> which is through a kind of GPS/satellite technology i think
Jul 02 18:15:07 <PaulFertser> gkwhc: i'm not sure what you're talking about. Do you mean you've to pay extra for HSD/UPA?
Jul 02 18:15:18 <SpeedEvil> If you use wifi, you don't have to pay your cellular provider.
Jul 02 18:15:41 <gkwhc> SpeedEvil: is this for all phones or the freerunner?
Jul 02 18:15:41 <SpeedEvil> You can never get free data service from cellphone radio.
Jul 02 18:15:43 <SpeedEvil> All.
Jul 02 18:16:00 <PaulFertser> SpeedEvil: does he really mean the question you're answering? ;)
Jul 02 18:16:07 <SpeedEvil> I don't know.
Jul 02 18:16:22 <SpeedEvil> It's not a very well written question.
Jul 02 18:17:25 <PaulFertser> :)
Jul 02 18:18:05 <gkwhc> hm
Jul 02 18:18:26 <gkwhc> i thought most phones disable wifi if you have data service for cellphone radio
Jul 02 18:18:27 <aloniv> gkwjc: you don't need to pay the cellular provider to access wifi but you might need to pay whoever is providing the internet (e.g. a hotel).
Jul 02 18:19:21 <aloniv> Also airports provide wifi but it might cost money.
Jul 02 18:19:23 <gkwhc> SpeedEvil: dont most phones disable wifi capability if you have a dataplan?
Jul 02 18:19:38 <DocScrutinizer> gkwhc: access to internet is either via landline cable plus any of USB or WiFi, or via GSM (phone) provider's dataservice
Jul 02 18:20:09 <gkwhc> DocScrutinizer: I see
Jul 02 18:20:17 <DocScrutinizer> gkwhc: this applies to all sorts of devices (except the really fringe case WiMAX)
Jul 02 18:20:19 <aloniv> gkwhc: I had a data plan on my previous phone but I could use wifi as well.
Jul 02 18:21:17 <gkwhc> aloniv: oh! so its possible to access the internet via wifi and not have a data plan correct?
Jul 02 18:21:28 <aloniv> Yes.
Jul 02 18:21:49 <gkwhc> i see. are you in the US too?
Jul 02 18:21:55 <PaulFertser> How on Earth it can be any different?..
Jul 02 18:21:55 <aloniv> In fact on my freerunner and on my previous phone wifi works even without a sim card.
Jul 02 18:22:23 <aloniv> Both phones 'complain' that a SIM card is missing.
Jul 02 18:22:36 <DocScrutinizer> gkwhc: your provider may or may not offer a broad variety of differing data transport services over "phone network", from most slow cheap to "faster than DSL"
Jul 02 18:22:56 <DocScrutinizer> gkwhc: you'll have to pay for each of them, on any provider
Jul 02 18:23:17 <gkwhc> okay
Jul 02 18:24:02 <aloniv> I'm not in the US. I used the freerunner is Israel and in Europe.
Jul 02 18:24:20 <gkwhc> so are there any benefits to using freerunner other than the ability to customize?
Jul 02 18:24:34 <DocScrutinizer> this however is completely unrelated to the case where you operate your own wireless local network and connect this via your DSL or whatever cable to internet
Jul 02 18:24:51 <DocScrutinizer> gkwhc: no
Jul 02 18:25:13 <aloniv> gkwhc: there are other benefits as well like testing new mobile operating systems such as Android...
Jul 02 18:25:38 <aloniv> And running GNU/Linux command line applications...
Jul 02 18:26:02 <gkwhc> mhm
Jul 02 18:26:04 <aloniv> and a few desktop applications such as Pidgin and Midori browser.
Jul 02 18:26:16 <aloniv> and Arora browser.
Jul 02 18:26:45 <gkwhc> oh nice!
Jul 02 18:26:55 <aloniv> After using Android for 5 minutes I realised that I do not want an Android phone.
Jul 02 18:27:20 <gkwhc> i presume android cant really run desktop apps?
Jul 02 18:27:22 <aloniv> The fonts are tiny and they cannot be increased. There is a bug about this that hasn't been resolved.
Jul 02 18:27:42 <Wonka> has anyone analyzed google goggles? is that service available without the android app?
Jul 02 18:27:55 <gkwhc> aloniv: tiny fonts in freerunner or android?
Jul 02 18:27:59 <aloniv> Wonka: you can use f-droid.
Jul 02 18:28:07 <aloniv> gkwhc: yes.
Jul 02 18:28:16 <aloniv> in android in general.
Jul 02 18:28:33 <aloniv> Other distros let you change and enlarge the fonts.
Jul 02 18:28:56 <aloniv> On QtMoko all you need is to edit a text file.
Jul 02 18:29:17 <Wonka> aloniv: I want to use goggles with a non-android (and non-iOS) device
Jul 02 18:29:34 <gkwhc> i see. i really like the freeunner for the fact that it can run linux desktop apps, but the screen is quite small compared to droid, etc
Jul 02 18:30:23 <Wonka> gkwhc: that's not a droid thing.
Jul 02 18:30:44 <gkwhc> Wonka: what do you mean?
Jul 02 18:30:45 <Wonka> gkwhc: there is android for the freerunner, there is SHR for non-freerunner devices
Jul 02 18:31:08 <aloniv> I have no idea what Google's goggles is. I thought it was a proprietary application. Anyway there seems to be a hack to get the market on the freerunner...
Jul 02 18:31:39 <Wonka> http://www.google.com/mobile/goggles/
Jul 02 18:31:53 <aloniv> gkwhc: some desktop apps aren't bad such as Pidgin and FBReader.
Jul 02 18:33:14 <gkwhc> aloniv: do those apps need modification? i might be running heavier things like wine, an IDE, etc
Jul 02 18:33:34 <aloniv> Wonka: as you can see you need the market. The market isn's available on the freerunner but someone on the internet said he managed to get it to work - of course the legality of this is questionable.
Jul 02 18:33:50 <Wonka> mh-mh
Jul 02 18:34:09 <aloniv> gkwhc: The apps are already compiled for the freerunner and appear in the repositories of the distributions.
Jul 02 18:34:23 <gkwhc> aloniv: i see
Jul 02 18:40:07 <gkwhc> anyways I guess my original question applies to US service providers, since even if you access the internet via wifi, you still need  a dataplan. so that's why i was asking if on the freerunner you can access wifi without having a dataplan.
Jul 02 18:42:06 <aloniv> gkwhc: the wifi works without a SIM card so it should work with one as well.
Jul 02 18:42:37 <aloniv> The SIM card cannot (as far as I know) disable your phone's wifi.
Jul 02 18:42:44 <gkwhc> okay
Jul 02 18:43:34 <aloniv> gkwhc: I think the only way in US for you to get a phone with wifi might be via a data plan which is something different.
Jul 02 18:44:07 <gkwhc> right
Jul 02 18:48:00 <aloniv> gkwhc: Maybe you can get a non data plan and just put the SIM in the freerunner?
Jul 02 18:48:42 <gkwhc> aloniv: i hope that will work
Jul 02 18:49:37 <gkwhc> but i dont see any freerunner distributers in the US
Jul 02 18:49:47 <aloniv> On the version of QtMoko that I'm using (v26) there is a neat thing - whenever I use wifi a blue light appears.
Jul 02 18:50:09 <aloniv> That way I don;t accidently leave it on as it will kill my battery.
Jul 02 18:50:33 <gkwhc> oh cool!
Jul 02 18:51:14 <aloniv> Yes unfortunately I only noticed this recently as I hardly use wifi. I just use it to check sports results when I'm out.
Jul 02 18:51:55 <gkwhc> ah
Jul 02 18:52:51 <aloniv> gkwhc: Just make sure you don;t get a non buzz fixed Openmoko or the A7 version. Mine is A6 and people hear a terrible echo when they talk to me (which admittedly keeps the phone bill down).
Jul 02 18:53:11 <PaulFertser> aloniv: echo is totally unrelated to buzz
Jul 02 18:53:25 <gkwhc> aloniv: haha okay, thanks for the tip!
Jul 02 18:53:32 <aloniv> Really? Then how do I fix it?
Jul 02 18:54:09 <PaulFertser> aloniv: echo can be fixed by fine-tuning the mixer settings.
Jul 02 18:54:29 <aloniv> I hear perfectly well even when the phone isn't close to my ear (it's like a walkie talkie).
Jul 02 18:54:36 <PaulFertser> aloniv: and by using the "harsher" variant of AT%Nxxxx command (the way to set it depends on the distro).
Jul 02 18:54:56 <aloniv> OK I'm using QtMoko v26 should I change the default settings?
Jul 02 18:55:11 <PaulFertser> No idea, you've to ask a QtMoko user/developer :)
Jul 02 18:55:13 <aloniv> Or what else should I do?
Jul 02 18:55:21 <PaulFertser> aloniv: mixer settings
Jul 02 18:55:26 <aloniv> Unfortunately SHR doesn;t work with my SIM...
Jul 02 18:55:46 <aloniv> Yes there is a Neocontrol utility...
Jul 02 18:57:20 <aloniv> PaulFertser: Playback is on 116, Sidetone is on 6 and MIC2 is on 2. Should I change them?
Jul 02 18:57:58 <PaulFertser> aloniv: probably yes, since you have complaints about the echo. But i can't really suggest anything except searching on the wiki.
Jul 02 18:58:03 <gkwhc> by the  way, whats the average battery life of freerunner?
Jul 02 18:58:36 <aloniv> gkwhc: I'm getting about a day and a half if on suspend mode.
Jul 02 18:59:02 <aloniv> If the screen is always on then much less.
Jul 02 18:59:04 <gkwhc> aloniv: oh, thats rather power hungry
Jul 02 18:59:34 <aloniv> gkwhc: but I can charge it via any computer using a standard mini usb to usb cable.
Jul 02 19:00:00 <gkwhc> i guess this is something most phones arent capapble of?
Jul 02 19:00:28 <aloniv> Most Nokia phones don;t provide this despite having a mini or micro usb port.
Jul 02 19:00:43 <gkwhc> i see
Jul 02 19:03:09 <aloniv> Anyway this cable is very cheap and all my friends have computers so I never need to worry about my battery dying.
Jul 02 19:03:53 <gkwhc> yeah i really like this feature
Jul 02 19:07:36 <PaulFertser> gkwhc: gta02 can stay in suspend for ~140 hours (with gsm actually connected and waiting for events).
Jul 02 19:07:54 <aloniv> gkwjc: It's one of the best features of the phone. The internet sharing feature (using your computer's internet to install software via SSH) is pretty neat as well.
Jul 02 19:09:18 <gkwhc> sounds great!
Jul 02 19:09:22 <aloniv> PaulFertser: on which distro? I tried using deep sleep on QtMoko but the phone doesn't wake up when someone calls.
Jul 02 19:09:34 <PaulFertser> aloniv: do you have #1024 fix?
Jul 02 19:09:37 <gkwhc> does gta02 have the buzz fix?
Jul 02 19:09:58 <aloniv> It does if you get the A7 version.
Jul 02 19:10:27 <aloniv> I'm not sure. How do I check?
Jul 02 19:10:28 <gkwhc> i see
Jul 02 19:11:00 <PaulFertser> gkwhc: gta02a7 has the factory buzz fix, some earlier revisions were fixed by the distris.
Jul 02 19:11:12 <PaulFertser> aloniv: if you never did it, it's not there :)
Jul 02 19:12:20 <PaulFertser> aloniv: and that means you can't use deep sleep unless you do it.
Jul 02 19:12:38 <PaulFertser> aloniv: without deep sleep it should be about 70 hours in suspend.
Jul 02 19:13:37 <aloniv> I found this thread
Jul 02 19:13:41 <aloniv> http://docs.openmoko.org/trac/ticket/1024
Jul 02 19:13:50 <PaulFertser> An obvious place, isn't it :)
Jul 02 19:13:58 <PaulFertser> aloniv: there's a summary in the end.
Jul 02 19:14:10 <aloniv> Anyway the phone works fine when suspended - I never drop any calls (as far as I know).
Jul 02 19:14:55 <aloniv> I see it's a hardware fix. Does any Openmoko manufacturer supply this?
Jul 02 19:20:47 <PaulFertser> aloniv: some distris do that, yes.
Jul 02 19:39:43 <khorben> alexxy: nikolaus schaller of goldelico maybe still takes care of hardware fixes
Jul 02 19:39:59 <khorben> http://goldelico.com/
Jul 02 19:40:07 <khorben> aloniv: for you, sorry
Jul 02 19:41:25 <aloniv> Too bad they don't do it for Israel.
Jul 02 19:41:58 <PaulFertser> aloniv: come on, find some local guy who can do that...
Jul 02 19:42:07 <aloniv> :)
Jul 02 19:42:34 <aloniv> It will probably be more expensive though unless I find a friend.
Jul 02 19:51:21 <aloniv> I found a file called libneovendor.so. Should I edit it with ghex?
Jul 02 19:53:36 <PaulFertser> aloniv: for AT%Nxxxx hack? What value does it have now?
Jul 02 19:53:53 <aloniv> Checking.
Jul 02 19:54:23 <aloniv> Unfortunately no room to install ghex on my freerunner so am doing this on my computer instead...
Jul 02 19:54:59 <PaulFertser> hexedit should be pretty lean
Jul 02 19:55:56 <aloniv> On Trisquel I only need 8 MB. On QtMoko over 50...
Jul 02 19:56:14 <PaulFertser> aloniv: gtk dependency.
Jul 02 19:56:26 <aloniv> Indeed.
Jul 02 20:03:20 <aloniv> STRING NOT FOUND
Jul 02 20:03:26 <aloniv> sorry abot caps.
Jul 02 20:03:29 <aloniv> about
Jul 02 20:04:30 <aloniv> n0187 was found though...
Jul 02 20:04:49 <aloniv> AT%N0187
Jul 02 20:05:18 <aloniv> So I guess I just need to tweak the settings then?
Jul 02 20:07:25 <PaulFertser> aloniv: 0187 is the harshest already, so yes, you've to tweak mixer settings.
Jul 02 20:07:51 <aloniv> What are your settings?
Jul 02 20:10:24 <PaulFertser> aloniv: http://paste.debian.net/121713/ but some people say they do not hear me well (the volume's too low)
Jul 02 20:10:44 <aloniv> cheers. Hopefully this works.
Jul 02 20:12:59 <aloniv> Will changing 5,12,48 be enough?
Jul 02 20:16:25 <PaulFertser> aloniv: i'm not sure but studying http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973_audio_subsystem might hlep
Jul 02 20:18:32 <aloniv> Well a friend says he still hears an scho but less...
Jul 02 20:18:35 <aloniv> *echo
Jul 02 20:18:46 <aloniv> He says before it was unbearable...
Jul 02 20:19:11 <PaulFertser> aloniv: you can play with the settings more. There were different revisions.
Jul 02 20:20:27 <aloniv> I'll ask other Israeli users what settings they use...
Jul 02 20:20:45 <PaulFertser> aloniv: wrong idea
Jul 02 20:20:59 <aloniv> why is that?
Jul 02 20:21:20 <aloniv> or other QtMoko Israeli users :)
Jul 02 20:21:22 <PaulFertser> aloniv: it's not about the country, it's about the hardware revision. There were too many, and even manufacturer now doesn't tell for sure which one should have which settings.
Jul 02 20:21:32 <PaulFertser> Because nobody knows.
Jul 02 20:21:36 <aloniv> ah OK.
Jul 02 20:21:41 <PaulFertser> aloniv: you've to experiment by yourself.
Jul 02 20:21:45 <aloniv> my hardware is A6.
Jul 02 20:22:59 <aloniv> All this to get a free phone working :) Writing a Hebrew keyboard was easier...
Jul 02 20:27:43 <aloniv> how come other phones just work?
Jul 02 20:30:00 <SpeedEvil> Lots and lots of effort.
Jul 02 20:30:18 <PaulFertser> aloniv: i guess the folks responsible for the hw changes between revisions there are saner then some of the OM employees...
Jul 02 20:30:47 <DocScrutinizer> audio once again??
Jul 02 20:30:54 * DocScrutinizer ducks and covers
Jul 02 20:31:09 <PaulFertser> DocScrutinizer: yep, aloniv can't yet find the best mixer settings.
Jul 02 20:31:10 <aloniv> PaulFertser: thanks for your help. Hopefully people won't complain anymore when speaking to me.
Jul 02 20:31:21 <PaulFertser> DocScrutinizer: btw, neither me, i often get complaints as well, heh.
Jul 02 20:32:45 <aloniv> So I guess changing 5,6,12 and 48 is enough then?
Jul 02 20:33:18 <DocScrutinizer> well, let me tell you sth: nobody literally NOBODY bothered about such elementary things like input sensitivity of calypso mic input vs level and impedance of wm8753 mixer chip output
Jul 02 20:33:26 <DocScrutinizer> so, any more questions?
Jul 02 20:34:19 <DocScrutinizer> I wasn't even able to find a single person who got the faintest idea about calypso input sensitivity
Jul 02 20:34:43 <DocScrutinizer> not to mention anything in the 80MB of calypso docs
Jul 02 20:35:25 <PaulFertser> DocScrutinizer: one should have just measured it probably in the lab...
Jul 02 20:35:52 <DocScrutinizer> and then there's this huge black mystery in calypso itseld, called audio-pages or sth like that
Jul 02 20:36:07 <PaulFertser> Doesn't sound that hard to attach a sin-wave generator to determine the possible input voltage range.
Jul 02 20:36:30 <DocScrutinizer> using what exactly as indicator output?
Jul 02 20:36:41 <DocScrutinizer> the moment when blue smoke escapes?
Jul 02 20:37:22 <PaulFertser> DocScrutinizer: during an ongoing call by listening on the other side, even that would help a lot i'd say.
Jul 02 20:37:36 <DocScrutinizer> I did that
Jul 02 20:37:53 <PaulFertser> But?
Jul 02 20:38:22 <DocScrutinizer> but you know well enough about the eleventyseven parameters that interfere with GSM OTA overall performance
Jul 02 20:39:22 <PaulFertser> DocScrutinizer: ok, but where does the difference between revisions (mic-input wise) come from? (i remember about the silly caps in the earpiece)
Jul 02 20:39:49 <DocScrutinizer> and all this designed by an EE crew that thought Line-out R and Line-out L are a differential signal
Jul 02 20:40:58 <PaulFertser> Yeah, that tells a lot about the insanity level of too many members of the EE crew... :(
Jul 02 20:41:02 <DocScrutinizer> there's basically no similar nonsense difference in mic, except the ever changing dimensioning of the micbias series resistors
Jul 02 20:42:19 <PaulFertser> There must be a solid reason so many people have such a different results with different statefiles, i'd bet on the hardware differences.
Jul 02 20:42:40 <DocScrutinizer> and we never got a decent description of how to initialize and kick ass of calypso DSP either
Jul 02 20:43:24 <DocScrutinizer> quite possible audiopages (actually page0) in calypso are massively random
Jul 02 20:43:34 <PaulFertser> It looks like the whole story of relationship with TI sucked to say the least.
Jul 02 20:43:46 <DocScrutinizer> maybe even no page loaded to DSP registers at all
Jul 02 20:44:04 <DocScrutinizer> sucked? that euphemism
Jul 02 20:44:36 <DocScrutinizer> It's been frankestein from day 0
Jul 02 20:45:23 <DocScrutinizer> OM inherited calypso from FIC, literally and physically
Jul 02 20:45:54 <DocScrutinizer> that's been the reason we "departed" finally
Jul 02 20:46:08 <DocScrutinizer> s/departed/divorced/
Jul 02 20:46:08 <apt> DocScrutinizer meant: that's been the reason we "divorced" finally
Jul 02 20:46:55 <DocScrutinizer> PaulFertser: Taiwan is China, when it comes to licencing et al
Jul 02 20:47:54 <DocScrutinizer> so relationship OM<->TI never was especially fraternal
Jul 02 20:47:54 <PaulFertser> DocScrutinizer: meaning one can basically ignore licensing issues?
Jul 02 20:48:21 <DocScrutinizer> "can" is a relative term
Jul 02 20:49:07 <DocScrutinizer> TI will teach you that you can *not*
Jul 02 20:49:34 <DocScrutinizer> MentoGraphics will do the same :-P
Jul 02 20:50:09 <PaulFertser> DocScrutinizer: but i thought OM intended to be rather clean and nice in that regard.
Jul 02 20:50:12 <DocScrutinizer> Wolfgang did a hell of a job to put things straight, but damage done...
Jul 02 20:50:35 <DocScrutinizer> FIC legacy
Jul 02 20:50:42 <PaulFertser> Yep, i get it now...
Jul 02 20:51:36 <PaulFertser> Well, anyway OM should have known better to not hire incompetent engineers, that's probably the most important reasons of being "not that successful" in the end.
Jul 02 20:51:51 <DocScrutinizer> FIC legacy as well
Jul 02 20:52:00 <DocScrutinizer> :-P
Jul 02 20:52:59 <DocScrutinizer> you for sure can figure the rest of the story
Jul 02 20:53:27 <aloniv> Should I run alsamixer during a call to twaek the settings?
Jul 02 20:53:30 <aloniv> *tweak
Jul 02 20:53:31 <PaulFertser> aloniv: sure
Jul 02 20:53:36 <DocScrutinizer> yes
Jul 02 20:53:42 <aloniv> before the call or during?
Jul 02 20:53:46 <PaulFertser> aloniv: during
Jul 02 20:53:49 <DocScrutinizer> doesn't matter
Jul 02 20:54:16 <aloniv> So I just SSH, type alsamixer then make a call and adjust settings?
Jul 02 20:54:21 <DocScrutinizer> to be on the absolutely safe side start it after call established
Jul 02 20:54:23 <PaulFertser> After the call is established, another scenario gets loaded, so you should tweak during the call, getting feedback from the other party.
Jul 02 20:54:29 <PaulFertser> aloniv: basically, yes.
Jul 02 20:54:38 <PaulFertser> aloniv: you can start alsamixer before too.
Jul 02 20:54:41 <PaulFertser> It's safe.
Jul 02 20:55:00 <aloniv> Hopefully this will solve it once and for all...
Jul 02 20:55:01 <DocScrutinizer> whatever, it starts quickly
Jul 02 20:55:29 <PaulFertser> DocScrutinizer: why couldn't OM pay the salary to those incompetent they had to keep anyway while not allowing them to actually work on anything to not screw up the design?
Jul 02 20:55:34 <aloniv> Bugs like this are the reason this phone failed unfortunately...
Jul 02 20:55:35 <DocScrutinizer> aloniv: DO NOT MISS to run alsactl store -f mynewsettings.state PRIOR to ending call!
Jul 02 20:56:03 <DocScrutinizer> aloniv: the settings are not sticky as set by alsamixer
Jul 02 20:56:14 <PaulFertser> ^^ nice advice ++ :)
Jul 02 20:56:21 <aloniv> Doesn;t this just save my new settings? Cos if so I can just write em down as I do them.
Jul 02 20:57:10 <PaulFertser> aloniv: -f store simply stores the current mixer setup to a file, yes.
Jul 02 20:57:44 <DocScrutinizer> aloniv: you can not write down all 98 controls
Jul 02 20:58:03 <aloniv> Indeed but I thought only 3 or 4 matter.
Jul 02 20:58:16 <DocScrutinizer> that's the big PITA of audio management as it's still now in all distros for FR
Jul 02 20:58:39 <DocScrutinizer> they never handle single controls, and have no idea which ones are relevant or not
Jul 02 20:59:32 <DocScrutinizer> aloniv: (3 or for) basically right, if all is set correctly. There are another 10 or 15 that MUST have a certain value and you can't fiddle with them
Jul 02 21:00:55 <aloniv> As far as I know I only need controls 5,12,48 and maybe also 6...
Jul 02 21:01:41 <DocScrutinizer> sounds about right, it's been a while since I wrote the wiki page
Jul 02 21:03:38 <aloniv> DocScrutinizer: do people hear you properly?
Jul 02 21:03:48 <DocScrutinizer> o.O
Jul 02 21:03:56 <DocScrutinizer> too many assumptions ;-D
Jul 02 21:04:04 <aloniv> ???
Jul 02 21:04:31 <DocScrutinizer> my pile of gta02 is collecting dust since almost years
Jul 02 21:04:42 <aloniv> Which phone do you have now?
Jul 02 21:04:48 <DocScrutinizer> N900
Jul 02 21:04:54 <aloniv> Cool.
Jul 02 21:04:57 <DocScrutinizer> soon N950
Jul 02 21:05:06 <aloniv> I'm thinking of getting a cheap Nokia.
Jul 02 21:05:33 <PaulFertser> I have n900 too but i can't use it at all. Nokia 1100 is something i can use. And it has a great battery life too. But i prefer my FR.
Jul 02 21:05:45 <aloniv> They sell C3 here for 530 NIS which is 90 pounds or so...
Jul 02 21:05:54 <DocScrutinizer> but yes, usually I was able to have proper voice calls on FR back when
Jul 02 21:06:05 <aloniv> It even has wifi and a radio...
Jul 02 21:06:18 <aloniv> and it's also 2.5 G
Jul 02 21:06:57 <PaulFertser> BTW, after i learned n9 and n950 both have no USB OTG functionality (while n8 has), i can't hear the word "nokia" without frustration :/
Jul 02 21:07:03 <aloniv> it should also work better with RTL languages - N900 doesn't align Hebrew correctly either...
Jul 02 21:07:22 <aloniv> at least that's what I heard...
Jul 02 21:07:29 <DocScrutinizer> wait a minute, the uSD card is in my new phone, let me pick the gsmhandset.state for you :-)
Jul 02 21:08:23 <DocScrutinizer> PaulFertser: there's nothing definitive known yet about OTH on either of both devices
Jul 02 21:08:31 <aloniv> but then again a family member got HTC sensation which doesn;t align Hebrew properly either - it also didn;t receive SMS messages immediately (there was a delay and two messages arrived together).
Jul 02 21:08:58 <DocScrutinizer> and it's me who tries to bring proper hostmode to N9 ootb
Jul 02 21:09:22 <aloniv> That's why I prefer the Nokia ones as they at least work as phones even if the software isn't great...
Jul 02 21:09:25 <DocScrutinizer> s/OTH/OTG/
Jul 02 21:09:44 <PaulFertser> DocScrutinizer: if it lacks proper AB connector, that's enough for me to get frustrated...
Jul 02 21:10:04 <DocScrutinizer> indeed, but even that's unclear yet for N9
Jul 02 21:10:32 <aloniv> Does the freerunner have USB on the go? I know it supports host mode not sure it is the same...?
Jul 02 21:10:40 <DocScrutinizer> it might be Nokia's way to say "F*** you USB cert board"
Jul 02 21:10:58 <SpeedEvil> Host mode is not OTG. 
Jul 02 21:11:09 <SpeedEvil> Host mode is one element of OTG
Jul 02 21:11:09 <DocScrutinizer> aloniv: FR has proper fullsize hostmode, but no OTG
Jul 02 21:11:27 <aloniv> what is on the go?
Jul 02 21:11:38 <DocScrutinizer> automatic hostmode
Jul 02 21:11:42 <DocScrutinizer> basically
Jul 02 21:11:54 <SpeedEvil> On the go is a agic protocol to negotiate direction of which device is host and which is device
Jul 02 21:12:06 <DocScrutinizer> where devices can swap roles on the fly
Jul 02 21:12:38 <DocScrutinizer> also has weird suspend states and whatnot
Jul 02 21:12:43 <aloniv> And doesn;t the freerunner do it as well?
Jul 02 21:12:48 <DocScrutinizer> nope
Jul 02 21:13:03 <DocScrutinizer> FR acts just like you PC
Jul 02 21:13:15 <DocScrutinizer> no PC can do OTG either
Jul 02 21:13:20 <SpeedEvil> My PC can't do device mode.
Jul 02 21:13:25 <SpeedEvil> Which would be handy sometimes.
Jul 02 21:13:47 <DocScrutinizer> yeah, FR *can* do device mode as well
Jul 02 21:13:49 <DocScrutinizer> :-)
Jul 02 21:13:58 <aloniv> OK so the freerunner either lets you connect cameras or ssh into/from another compuiter?
Jul 02 21:14:06 <DocScrutinizer> still hostmode plus devicemode << OTG
Jul 02 21:14:20 <DocScrutinizer> aloniv: exactly
Jul 02 21:14:21 <aloniv> *computer
Jul 02 21:14:53 <aloniv> usb otg also requires usb 2.0 which freerunner lacks...
Jul 02 21:15:05 <DocScrutinizer> tbh I don't know of one single device that actually exploits OTG to full extent
Jul 02 21:15:59 <aloniv> doesn;t n8 have it? (the one with 12 mp camera)
Jul 02 21:16:10 <DocScrutinizer> I'm not sure about the USB2.0 part. On paper probably, technically OTG doesn't need USB2.0
Jul 02 21:16:32 <DocScrutinizer> yes, N8 has OTG allegedly
Jul 02 21:17:19 <DocScrutinizer> whether or not it's a comprehensive implementation of OTG is questionable
Jul 02 21:17:43 <DocScrutinizer> hard to test when there's not a single device to use any of the OTG additional tricks
Jul 02 21:24:07 <aloniv> will Meego run on freerunner?
Jul 02 21:29:10 <SpeedEvil> Really not enough RAM.
Jul 02 21:29:20 <SpeedEvil> And no gles
Jul 02 21:29:40 <DocScrutinizer> no way
Jul 02 21:32:24 <aloniv> shame none of the android devices have usb on the go or radio...
Jul 02 21:32:41 <PaulFertser> Shame none of the android devices have a sane distro ;)
Jul 02 21:33:04 <aloniv> that too...shame sms messages reach the wrong person...
Jul 02 21:36:48 <SpeedEvil> That's the carriers problem
Jul 02 21:37:01 <SpeedEvil> your cell modem can only recieve what's specifically addressed to it
Jul 02 21:37:52 <aloniv> apparently it's an android bug
Jul 02 21:38:21 <aloniv> https://code.google.com/p/android/issues/detail?id=9392
Jul 02 21:39:31 <aloniv> which distros are you guys using atm?
Jul 02 21:39:40 <SpeedEvil> That's a sending, not a recieving issue
Jul 02 21:39:54 <aloniv> indeed but it's stil a nasty bug...
Jul 02 21:39:58 <aloniv> *still
Jul 02 21:40:30 <aloniv> hence sms messages reach the wrong person comment...
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