**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Thu Sep 29 02:59:56 2011
Sep 29 07:17:04 <larie> hello
Sep 29 07:17:45 <larie> should i buy freerunner? or wait for new model?
Sep 29 07:20:04 <h4v> larie: you either way need freerunner, gta04 is just board replacement
Sep 29 07:20:37 <larie> h4v: oh! :p is that board already available?
Sep 29 07:21:30 <larie> i want to buy freerunner in a month
Sep 29 07:21:38 * pabs3 would not buy the gta04
Sep 29 07:21:47 <h4v> larie: no, it's being tested
Sep 29 07:21:57 <h4v> pabs3: why so?
Sep 29 07:22:06 <larie> pabs3: why??
Sep 29 07:22:14 <pabs3> two reasons
Sep 29 07:22:24 <pabs3> firstly this idiocy: http://projects.goldelico.com/p/gta04-main/page/FirmwareInjector/
Sep 29 07:22:37 <pabs3> secondly osmocom bb doesn't support the GSM chip
Sep 29 07:24:20 <larie> omg!
Sep 29 07:24:24 <pabs3> also, kinda sad they didn't consider fixing case design issues or adding more ports or getting rid of design bugs
Sep 29 07:24:47 <larie> what is osmonombb ?
Sep 29 07:24:50 <larie> what bugs?
Sep 29 07:25:09 <pabs3> like 2.5 mm headphone jack instead of 3.5
Sep 29 07:25:32 <pabs3> the screen not being flat with the face
Sep 29 07:25:39 <pabs3> stupid design bugs like that
Sep 29 07:25:55 <larie> oh
Sep 29 07:25:56 <pabs3> osmocomm bb is http://bb.osmocom.org/trac/
Sep 29 07:26:12 <h4v> i like screen this way
Sep 29 07:26:37 <pabs3> makes it hard to touch the corners :(
Sep 29 07:26:43 <larie> pabs3: do i need that osmocom? can i call without it?
Sep 29 07:27:08 <pabs3> larie: of course, you'll just be using the prioprietary firmware embedded in the GSM chip's flash
Sep 29 07:27:24 <larie> pabs3: i want to use gentoo on the phone...
Sep 29 07:27:41 <pabs3> I would advise you against that, the FR is pretty slow :)
Sep 29 07:27:51 <pabs3> unless you will be cross-compiling on your desktop
Sep 29 07:28:00 <larie> pabs3: i'm cross-compiling every day
Sep 29 07:28:08 <larie> pabs3: i just do not have good phone
Sep 29 07:28:09 <pabs3> ah, cool
Sep 29 07:28:22 <larie> my phone is SIEMENS A52 lol
Sep 29 07:28:36 <larie> http://mobiguru.ru/f/image/8/2/0/8202_siemens_a52_1.jpg
Sep 29 07:28:58 <larie> i can easily touch screen corners :p
Sep 29 07:31:12 <pabs3> it probably has some of these bugs too: http://www.isti.tu-berlin.de/fileadmin/fg214/finished_theses/NicoGolde/diplom_golde.pdf
Sep 29 07:32:35 <larie> that is why i want fsf phone :3
Sep 29 07:32:50 <pabs3> whats an fsf phone?
Sep 29 07:33:20 <larie> any phone without bad software and hardware
Sep 29 07:33:24 <larie> open and free one
Sep 29 07:33:29 <larie> like freerunner
Sep 29 07:33:36 <larie> or GTA04
Sep 29 07:34:37 <pabs3> the FirmwareInjector thing for gta04 is the FSF's idea of free hardware, I wouldn't trust the FSF when it comes to hardware freedom
Sep 29 07:34:54 <larie> pabs3: why?
Sep 29 07:35:13 <larie> pabs3: what to do if there is no free driver?
Sep 29 07:35:31 <pabs3> use the non-free one and reverse engineer it until it works
Sep 29 07:35:39 <pabs3> better than this idiocy: http://projects.goldelico.com/p/gta04-main/page/FirmwareInjector/
Sep 29 07:35:58 <pabs3> anyway, I should shut up now
Sep 29 07:36:30 <larie> where to buy? seems like it is hard to buy...
Sep 29 07:37:30 <pabs3> see the bottom of http://projects.goldelico.com/p/gta04-main/
Sep 29 07:37:47 <pabs3> the early adoptor program is closed already
Sep 29 07:37:53 <larie> pabs3: i'm about freerunner
Sep 29 07:37:59 <pabs3> ah
Sep 29 07:39:00 <pabs3> http://www.openmoko.com/freerunner_distributors.html
Sep 29 07:39:17 <pabs3> probably not many distributors still sell it
Sep 29 07:39:19 <larie> i'm from Russia
Sep 29 07:40:51 <Sazius> I bought from Pulster (German company) about a year ago, worked great, with shipping to Finland.
Sep 29 07:41:13 <larie> Sazius: nice! are they selling latest version with fixed bugs?
Sep 29 07:41:19 <Sazius> that was FreeRunner GTA02 though
Sep 29 07:41:34 <Sazius> yes, seems to be that one :)
Sep 29 07:45:45 <larie> Sazius: there are two types of gsm afaik
Sep 29 07:45:57 <larie> Sazius: i need european one that will work in russia
Sep 29 07:46:48 <Sazius> well, the one I bought from Pulster works fine in Finland, probably the same in Russia?
Sep 29 07:47:31 <larie> Sazius: 900/1800 is for europe/asia and 850/1900 is for usa/la/canada
Sep 29 07:47:35 <Sazius> http://www.pulster.eu/index.html?d__om_a7__OpenMoko_Freerunner___A7739.htm
Sep 29 07:47:36 <larie> Sazius: seems like the same
Sep 29 07:47:56 <Sazius> says "European version with triband GSM900 / 1800 / 1900, newest revision GTA02 v7 with fixed buzz & GPS bug"
Sep 29 07:48:05 <larie> sweet!
Sep 29 07:48:15 <larie> Sazius: thx! i will buy in a Month..
Sep 29 07:48:48 <Sazius> yeah, I bought in Dec 2010, and there were no problems
Sep 29 07:48:54 <larie> is it really too slow? :p do i need to buy Nokia n900 too as a second box ? :p
Sep 29 07:49:11 <Sazius> they were responsive and replied to my e-mail questions etc...
Sep 29 07:49:22 <Sazius> well, it's not super-fast :) 
Sep 29 07:49:56 <Sazius> with QtMoko I find it fast enough, Android is pretty sluggish though
Sep 29 07:50:22 <larie> Sazius: there is usb host... maybe i will use it as network between pc and phone
Sep 29 07:50:25 <Sazius> if possible, I'd suggest to try it before you buy it, since it might not be for everyone :)
Sep 29 07:50:59 <Sazius> yeah, although GTA02 doesn't have 3G, only GPRS (or whatever it's called)
Sep 29 07:51:52 <larie> then i will use qemu-kvm + crossdev + distcc to build something
Sep 29 07:51:57 <Sazius> yeah, you can have usb-network for e.g. logging in to phone over ssh from your computer
Sep 29 07:52:03 <larie> and then rsync to upload to phone oper usb-net
Sep 29 07:52:11 <larie> sounds like a plan :3
Sep 29 07:52:16 <Sazius> :)
Sep 29 08:06:23 <larie> what about on-screen keyboard?
Sep 29 08:09:17 <Sazius> depends on what distribution you run on it: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Distributions
Sep 29 08:09:42 <larie> Gentoo..
Sep 29 08:47:00 <larie> €199 is a lot :o
Sep 29 08:47:17 <larie> i want to buy used one
Sep 29 09:14:00 <pabs3> larie: mail the community list, someone might be wanting to get rid of one
Sep 29 09:15:19 <larie> pabs3: give me a link please
Sep 29 09:16:47 <pabs3> http://lmgtfy.com/?q=openmoko+community
Sep 29 11:11:39 <pabs3> awesome, LWN covered the GTA04 binary blob crap: http://lwn.net/SubscriberLink/460654/aa6c8af4de857b57/
Sep 29 11:18:33 <SpeedEvil> Ass-hats.
Sep 29 11:22:20 <pabs3> who?
Sep 29 11:24:22 <SpeedEvil> The idea that putting firmware as circuitry versus uploading it from the kernel is a good idea
Sep 29 11:25:19 <pabs3> so the FSF then, and gta04 folks for caring about the FSF's opinion
Sep 29 11:25:22 * pabs3 agrees
Sep 29 11:31:57 <SpeedEvil> In the theater expression - 'Bums on seats'.
Sep 29 11:32:11 <SpeedEvil> If you don't have them, you're not actually doing anything for software freedom at all.
Sep 29 12:11:30 <DocScrutinizer> http://projects.goldelico.com/p/gta04-main/page/FirmwareInjector/ W*T*F?!!????
Sep 29 12:12:10 <mjr> that does seem as rather missing many, many points
Sep 29 12:12:54 <mjr> if you're gonna use the blob firmware, fuck _where_ it's fed from
Sep 29 12:18:46 * SpeedEvil has sent a message along those lines to the email.
Sep 29 12:19:23 <DocScrutinizer> exactly, as if a linux got tainted by uploading a binary data file to a peripheral interface :-P
Sep 29 12:20:05 <DocScrutinizer> and as if that would get different when not the main CPU but an auxiliary MCU is doing the same - OMG what ignorants
Sep 29 12:20:43 <DocScrutinizer> even RMS wasn't concerned about "black boxes that get fed binaries for initialization"
Sep 29 12:21:04 <DocScrutinizer> back when he talked to some dude of OM - maybe he changed his mind now
Sep 29 12:21:35 <DocScrutinizer> not that I'd give a sh*t about RMS' opinions regarding anything
Sep 29 12:23:51 <DocScrutinizer> but honestly, I'd think nobody *really* wants a GTA04 - too low a user base, so even less developers offering ready-to-install pkgs, obviously rather hobbyist EE crew with a hybris so they rejected my offer to help with schematics proofreading or whatever. No concept at all still about FCC_et_al cert, so the device is basically illegal after all
Sep 29 12:23:56 <DocScrutinizer> etc pp
Sep 29 12:25:17 <SpeedEvil> I replied, noting also about steppingstone
Sep 29 12:26:17 <DocScrutinizer> not to forget the brilliant idea to recycle the gta02 parts, which as we all know are hard to get and expensive, while there are a bazilion nice other cases and spare LCM out there for phones sold in the millions of units
Sep 29 12:28:47 <SpeedEvil> It made sense.
Sep 29 12:29:00 <SpeedEvil> _if_ the gta04 was brought out a few months after the 02
Sep 29 12:29:02 <SpeedEvil> maybe a year
Sep 29 12:55:07 <DocScrutinizer> even then the basic idea of destroying a 200€ device to canibalize 2 of the worst parts (case and touchscreen) is questionable
Sep 29 12:55:38 <DocScrutinizer> esp when there are other widely available better parts out there
Sep 29 12:55:46 <DocScrutinizer> for way less
Sep 29 12:55:50 <DocScrutinizer> $
Sep 29 12:56:43 <SpeedEvil> touchscreen was a good device for 2007
Sep 29 12:57:09 <DocScrutinizer> the screen is good, the r-panel is kinda YUCK
Sep 29 12:58:41 <DocScrutinizer> well, maybe I'm fastidious with Nokia's N810/900 touchpanels. Samsung OMNIA was even worse than FR regarding that
Sep 29 13:00:23 <DocScrutinizer> but using parts that can't be found as spare parts on ebay, or only for exorbitant pricetag, and base a new development on that... I'm all but excited about this idea
Sep 29 13:20:23 <h4v> is freerunner able to boot without display? 
Sep 29 13:28:09 <SpeedEvil> Seems likely
Sep 29 13:28:20 <SpeedEvil> As far as I'm aware, there is no EDID or anything on the LCD
Sep 29 13:28:38 <DocScrutinizer> yes
Sep 29 13:29:11 <DocScrutinizer> FR definitely could boot without display attached, when I last tried with OM2008 or sth
Sep 29 13:41:26 <h4v> thanks, it's good to hear, there will be no waste with gta04
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Fri Sep 30 02:59:57 2011